NP. Models look cool, rules seem decent, price is not outrageous. If these don’t show up under the Christmas tree, I’ll be picking them up after the holidays. Can’t prime until spring anyway, no rush. But looking forward to adding them to my Ultras.
I mean he is now +1 move, +1 toughness, +1 wound , +1 attack for the same cost and same special rules.
He loses the ability to ride his Land Raider and to deep strike tough. I will pick him up asap.
i am playing Ultramarines and planing to pick up one of the SM battleforce boxes (currently i own the dark imperium stuff, a redemptor dreadnought and a venerable dreadnought as well as a squad of scouts). Cant decide which one to go with though. The interdiction force has a repulsor which i quite like but also reivers which i dont have a use for. The supremacy force box has aggressors and hellblasters which i like but also a redemptor which i already have. Any opinions?
Remember that the supremacy force has three sets of IF upgrade sprues in it which are dead value if you don't need or sell them.
Both the repulsor and the redemptor will get a good point reduction in CA2018. The repulsor can have Lascannons and Lastalon which is good for AT and reduce your drops if needed.
ultimentra wrote: After all is said and done after chapter approved it still feels like were bottom tier. Guard, nids, and mechanicus all definitely moved up from higher mid tier to compete with dark eldar and eldar at the top.
Yeah, we haven't had huge prices drop. 20 pts on characters won't change anything. Land Raiders and terminators got the best I guess ?
ultimentra wrote: After all is said and done after chapter approved it still feels like were bottom tier. Guard, nids, and mechanicus all definitely moved up from higher mid tier to compete with dark eldar and eldar at the top.
Yeah, we haven't had huge prices drop. 20 pts on characters won't change anything. Land Raiders and terminators got the best I guess ?
My (admittedly pure Primaris) 2000 points army became 1850 after giving my Repulsor twin lascannons instead of HBs. How is that not a big drop? Did other armies get better drops?
I can almost get a Faithful 32 with the savings to power Indomitus Crusaders with CPs.
ultimentra wrote: After all is said and done after chapter approved it still feels like were bottom tier. Guard, nids, and mechanicus all definitely moved up from higher mid tier to compete with dark eldar and eldar at the top.
Yeah, we haven't had huge prices drop. 20 pts on characters won't change anything. Land Raiders and terminators got the best I guess ?
My (admittedly pure Primaris) 2000 points army became 1850 after giving my Repulsor twin lascannons instead of HBs. How is that not a big drop? Did other armies get better drops?
I can almost get a Faithful 32 with the savings to power Indomitus Crusaders with CPs.
Wow, my bad I didn't realize it was that much. Thanks for the info, mate
Well, with the updated datasheet for Intercessors, if anyone is looking for a good place to get a sheathed Chainsword for your Sergeants, take a look at the Mk III Marines kit. There are tons of sheathed Chainswords on there. Get that free attack! As for Power Fists, I imagine taking one of the pointing arms cutting it off at the wrist and attaching a Power Fist should suffice. I am going to compare the size of the Power Fists once my Supremacy Force comes Monday.
I am really liking the Crimson Fists Liberator Strike Force. It makes me want to combine my two squads of Hellblasters into one murderous bubble of Doom. People can try shooting at them. I will have them in cover. And they WILL shoot back. I am also looking at making a Primaris Apothecary a Field Commander with the Expert Instructor Warlord Trait.
I need to tabulate my points. I believe I am at about 100 pts saved.
Have you thought about giving the Tactical Squads Missile Launchers instead of Lascannons? That way you can access the Flakk Missile Stratagem and have an easier time with hordes due to the Frag Missile.
They are 20 points now, and I haven't gotten around to building them yet. I think I even bought some of the from-the-hip ones, just because they are so silly they are awesome.
Between the Devastators and the C-Mortis I do have enough Lascannon shots to make a Knight sweat a little bit. The 15 points would give me some more room to try to look at squeezing an apothecary in (maybe dropping the Hunter Killers from the Leviathan)
Looking at the points drops in CA I think there are substantial drops ahead for Primaris.
There's really no place on the table for hellblasters or aggressors with the new prices of vets with stormbolters and devs with plasma cannons.
2x vets with stormbolters and storm shields will run, what 36 points? 8 shots, 3++, 2 wounds vs 6+d6 t5 3+ for 35?
Same with the new plasma dev costs. d3 shots @ 36 vs 1 @ 30" for less points. The difference went from devs costing 4 more to devs costing 4 less. A squad of 5 put out on avg 2x the shots for 20 points less. Hell you could even throw in a couple extra bodies and get 3 ablative wounds for close to the same cost and still have double the fire-power.
This could just be a fair a mount of salt from a guy who just spent the last month painting 20 hellblasters which are now going to have to sit on the shelf while I paint 15 plasma devs but I can't see any world where hellblasters/aggressors compete in an optimized list (especially with all the 2d weapons out there that already made it a tough world for primaris) vs the old marines with their cheaper new toys unless GW is planning substantial price drops or crazy new strats.
bananathug wrote: Looking at the points drops in CA I think there are substantial drops ahead for Primaris.
There's really no place on the table for hellblasters or aggressors with the new prices of vets with stormbolters and devs with plasma cannons.
2x vets with stormbolters and storm shields will run, what 36 points? 8 shots, 3++, 2 wounds vs 6+d6 t5 3+ for 35?
Same with the new plasma dev costs. d3 shots @ 36 vs 1 @ 30" for less points. The difference went from devs costing 4 more to devs costing 4 less. A squad of 5 put out on avg 2x the shots for 20 points less. Hell you could even throw in a couple extra bodies and get 3 ablative wounds for close to the same cost and still have double the fire-power.
This could just be a fair a mount of salt from a guy who just spent the last month painting 20 hellblasters which are now going to have to sit on the shelf while I paint 15 plasma devs but I can't see any world where hellblasters/aggressors compete in an optimized list (especially with all the 2d weapons out there that already made it a tough world for primaris) vs the old marines with their cheaper new toys unless GW is planning substantial price drops or crazy new strats.
That's extremely oversimplified. The vets get 8 shots at 12", 4 up to 24". The Aggressor get 6+1d6 (more shots on average) up to 18"(+run), and double the shots in a turn in which it didn't move. Veterans only have the 3++ going for them. And against some weapons that's not even better than T5 3+.
Hellblasters? They can move and hit on 3+. They can get within 15" and shoot twice. You are paying for mobility. Previously, it was Plasma Devs which didn't have a place.
Vets have the 3++, ability to ride in transports that aren't point pinatas, are not as point efficient to kill vs. the in meta guns. Against most weapons that kill marines it is much better than T5 3+.
Hellblasters only get w/in 15" in numbers that count if your enemy lets them (unless you are DW or SW). Either way is your point that 2 shots from 36" is the same as 2 shots from 15"?
Paying twice as much per shot for mobility must not be part of the costing equation for eldar/knights/armigers/custodes... Over priced for sure.
In my experience, single wound marines are just as tough as 2 wound primaris vs most guns that scare marines. My last couple tournaments I've faced nothing but DE, eldar soup, tau and knights. Against those lists hellblasters/aggressors are not viable. Those lists just happen to be the in meta lists.
The alpha strike ability of 36" plasma > mobility of hellblasters IMHO (that 6" move isn't helping vs the 12-18" of actual mobile troops). Then throw in the similar defense vs in meta weapons and I don't see a world where hellblasters compete at their current cost vs plasma devs. Overheating plas killing the bearer is another thing devs got going for them (no idea why the orc rule wasn't ported over but whatever).
Getting w/in 15" of an enemies army with a unit that doesn't want to be in melee is also a deathwish. Overwatch on aggressors sounds scary but with so many units that can turn it off or just shrug it off (6 man squad gets 57ish shots in overwatch or 10 hits, 5 wounds, 4 dead orcs -> 6 dead aggressors).
I'm just not seeing the value in either unit after CA.
It's too bad sterns can take storm sheilds. Cause 5 man sterns with 2 storm sheilds 2 plasma cannons and 3 storm bolters would be pretty nice. Maybe even a power fist on that Sargent. Nope - only DW gets to have storm sheilds and good shooting.
Crimson_ wrote: Do we have the complete datasheets for Calgar, Honour Guard and their points?
He might be really good for my all Primaris army.
If you look on youtube for some review of the VIgilus book you can find them, I think they are good for their point value but my personal problem with primaris stands. How can you deliver them to where you want them? The lack of transport/delivery option is crippling for assault oriented unit. Calgar hits like a truck tho
Crimson_ wrote: Do we have the complete datasheets for Calgar, Honour Guard and their points?
He might be really good for my all Primaris army.
If you look on youtube for some review of the VIgilus book you can find them, I think they are good for their point value but my personal problem with primaris stands. How can you deliver them to where you want them? The lack of transport/delivery option is crippling for assault oriented unit. Calgar hits like a truck tho
I think Calgar, should be a center piece of shooty marines. Providing buff while dealing with the commonly seen big nasty monsters that normal marine boys have problem in melee, such as the Daemon Princes, Carnifexes and Hive Tyrants.
As for transport of Primaris, I am glad to see the points drop of Repulsor, although the drop magnitude may not be enough, it is a good sign after all.
bananathug wrote: Looking at the points drops in CA I think there are substantial drops ahead for Primaris.
There's really no place on the table for hellblasters or aggressors with the new prices of vets with stormbolters and devs with plasma cannons.
2x vets with stormbolters and storm shields will run, what 36 points? 8 shots, 3++, 2 wounds vs 6+d6 t5 3+ for 35?
Same with the new plasma dev costs. d3 shots @ 36 vs 1 @ 30" for less points. The difference went from devs costing 4 more to devs costing 4 less. A squad of 5 put out on avg 2x the shots for 20 points less. Hell you could even throw in a couple extra bodies and get 3 ablative wounds for close to the same cost and still have double the fire-power.
This could just be a fair a mount of salt from a guy who just spent the last month painting 20 hellblasters which are now going to have to sit on the shelf while I paint 15 plasma devs but I can't see any world where hellblasters/aggressors compete in an optimized list (especially with all the 2d weapons out there that already made it a tough world for primaris) vs the old marines with their cheaper new toys unless GW is planning substantial price drops or crazy new strats.
That's extremely oversimplified. The vets get 8 shots at 12", 4 up to 24". The Aggressor get 6+1d6 (more shots on average) up to 18"(+run), and double the shots in a turn in which it didn't move. Veterans only have the 3++ going for them. And against some weapons that's not even better than T5 3+.
Hellblasters? They can move and hit on 3+. They can get within 15" and shoot twice. You are paying for mobility. Previously, it was Plasma Devs which didn't have a place.
Guys, I honestly suggest take a look at Veteran on Bike w Stormshield and Storm Bolter.
For the cost of 1pts over an Aggressor, and on average 1.5 less shots, Vets on bikes gain an average 2" more threat range of their double tap guns, same T5, armor save 3+, but are at least 50% more tough against AP-anything. And will be more than twice as durable against Disintergrator Cannons / plasma, and the like. The only defficiency Vets on Bikes have compare to aggressor is much less threathening in overwatch.
I am looking at running a full squad of Hellblasters backed by Pedro Kantor and an Apothecary now. Dropping Heroes of Rynn's World and having less fear from Overcharging is pretty great. The Apothecary could just resurrect anyone that has died. Another option would be to stick the Expert Instructor Warlord Trait on a Lieutenant and have him go with them instead of Pedro Kantor. Now, the question is, do I give that Lieutenant a MS Stalker Bolt Rifle, MS Auto Bolt Rifle, or a Power Sword.
It is too bad Expert Instructor Warlord Trait doesn't work on non-Liberator Strike Force units, otherwise I would stick that Lieutenant with a squad of Lascannon Devastators and give him a MS Stalker Bolt Rifle.
I think Pedro is wasted babysitting Hellblasters. You don't need Chapter Master rerolls with them (you dont want to reroll twos while overcharging) and obviously there are better units to benefit from his bonus attacks.
And always give the lieutenant the sword. One BS 3+ bolter more won't do anything, four WS 2+ power sword attacks might. Now you don't obviously don't want your firebase to end up in CC in the first place, but your opponent might have other ideas.
Crimson wrote: I think Pedro is wasted babysitting Hellblasters. You don't need Chapter Master rerolls with them (you dont want to reroll twos while overcharging) and obviously there are better units to benefit from his bonus attacks.
And always give the lieutenant the sword. One BS 3+ bolter more won't do anything, four WS 2+ power sword attacks might. Now you don't obviously don't want your firebase to end up in CC in the first place, but your opponent might have other ideas.
Good Point with Pedro and the rerolls of 2s. In which case a Lieutenant rocking the Expert Instructor trait should be good. And I prefer the Sword LT, so this is good.
Crimson wrote: I think Pedro is wasted babysitting Hellblasters. You don't need Chapter Master rerolls with them (you dont want to reroll twos while overcharging) and obviously there are better units to benefit from his bonus attacks.
And always give the lieutenant the sword. One BS 3+ bolter more won't do anything, four WS 2+ power sword attacks might. Now you don't obviously don't want your firebase to end up in CC in the first place, but your opponent might have other ideas.
Ain't it amazing that Chapter Masters make the Plasma dudes hit more but somehow make themselves explode more?
Crimson wrote: I think Pedro is wasted babysitting Hellblasters. You don't need Chapter Master rerolls with them (you dont want to reroll twos while overcharging) and obviously there are better units to benefit from his bonus attacks.
And always give the lieutenant the sword. One BS 3+ bolter more won't do anything, four WS 2+ power sword attacks might. Now you don't obviously don't want your firebase to end up in CC in the first place, but your opponent might have other ideas.
Ain't it amazing that Chapter Masters make the Plasma dudes hit more but somehow make themselves explode more?
Yeah, definitely becomes "no guts no glory". Honestly, with Heroes of Rynn's World will shore up the misses on 2s. Lots of plasma death incoming.
I always thought when it said "you can reroll any" it meant you didn't have to, just that you could, and you could choose which because it didn't specifically say all, just any.
Could go in YMDC, but I always chose not to reroll the 2s using that logic.
Lemondish wrote: I always thought when it said "you can reroll any" it meant you didn't have to, just that you could, and you could choose which because it didn't specifically say all, just any.
Could go in YMDC, but I always chose not to reroll the 2s using that logic.
You absolutely have the option. It is not a requirement. But if I am not rerolling the 2s, what benefit does Pedro Kantor serve instead of a Primaris Apothecary or Primaris Lieutenant with Expert Instructor?
With dreadnoughts coming down a fair bit in points do you guys plan on using any? The redemptor went down 45 or some odd points and looks alright at around 161 for his dakka bot loadout all the while having some decent melee ability and wounds to take a few hits.
Venerable dreads are 140 for ML Twinlas anti tank and that's pretty good I think. The 6+++, and 2+WS/BS is worth the 20 points over a normal dread IMO. 152 for a more versatile powerfist/SB Twinlas loadout does not seem terrible either, but kind of steps on the toes of the redemptor a bit who has 5 more wounds, is faster and spits out more shots, but does degrade.
I plan on using a lot of dreads. 3 venerable with TL/las + ML are probably going to be the starting point for a lot of my lists. Plus 3 units of plasma devs. Redemptor dread is now efficient enough to play. I'll probably bring 1 just to be a distraction carnifex.
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Asherian Command wrote: If redemptor had a levithian load out with two onslaught cannons they would be the best unit in the space marine codex.
Well it would also get a point drop with that build. So yeah - it would be a lot better. Heck if it could take double plasma it would be even better. Really I don't understand why the melle fists costs so much - They should cost a lot less than the weapons we replace them with because nobody really wants them. At least on the Redemptor you still get a decent side weapon which basically gives you 1.5 Onslaught cannons.
I wish the Macro Plasma Incinerator was a better weapon. Having that on one arm and the Onslaught Cannon on the other seems like a good dual-function use.
I am just a little irritated that the missile launcher became optional after I glued mine in place.
In the few games I've played the macro incinerator has put in work. Was able to mulch plague marines in one game and did considerable damage to a land raider in another. If I had brought the onslaught instead the lack of high strength and damage shooting would have hurt.
My problems with the macro is that it is heavy an causes the redemptor to hurt it self on 1s and 2s when it moves and because it is a melee threat as well the redemptor will likely be moving. To get proper value out of the macro you will likely be overcharging it thus the problem above. Furthermore its a flat d6 with no way to modify that beyond very valuable command points. It's unreliable and hurts you where as the onslaught cannon has a set number of shots. does not hurt you and has it's niche of mowing down medium-lower tier infantry.
Asherian Command wrote: If redemptor had a levithian load out with two onslaught cannons they would be the best unit in the space marine codex.
Nonsense. It already carries 1.5.
Trade in a legitimate melee threat for 6 more damage 1 shots at range? No, thank you.
He's right though. It would be a buff in many ways. #1 is you don't need to move anymore. #2 is you would cost significantly less. I'd take that in a heartbeat.
I think I have gotten the redemptor into CC a total of 2 times probably playing it in 15 games. The melle profile is nearly wasted on it.
Asherian Command wrote: If redemptor had a levithian load out with two onslaught cannons they would be the best unit in the space marine codex.
Nonsense. It already carries 1.5.
Trade in a legitimate melee threat for 6 more damage 1 shots at range? No, thank you.
He's right though. It would be a buff in many ways. #1 is you don't need to move anymore. #2 is you would cost significantly less. I'd take that in a heartbeat.
I think I have gotten the redemptor into CC a total of 2 times probably playing it in 15 games. The melle profile is nearly wasted on it.
Then you aren't using it right. They've been MVPs for me lately - too many other, more important threats so they can't be focused, and just walked them up the board to an objective or a big, hard target. Punched a Knight to death.
Give them a chance with proper heavy armour saturation, positioning, and movement rather than just lining up your plastic toys and rolling dice on planet bowling ball.
I am looking at adding a squad of Tartaros Terminators into my Crimson Fists list instead of two Inceptor Squads. It is sacrificing a ton of shooting for some higher strength shooting. Being able to drop in and lay down 2 Plasma, 4 Autocannon (why is the Reaper Autocannon 1 damage?!), 12 Storm Bolter, and d6 Grenade Harness shots is still pretty decent. Not quite 36 Heavy Bolter shots, but they are also more survivable. Plus I save 47 pts to put toward something else. I am actually looking toward adding a Vindicare Assassin (not overly competitive, but decent for the points now) and having the points left for a Chaff Marine for my Devastators.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: With dreadnoughts coming down a fair bit in points do you guys plan on using any? The redemptor went down 45 or some odd points and looks alright at around 161 for his dakka bot loadout all the while having some decent melee ability and wounds to take a few hits.
Venerable dreads are 140 for ML Twinlas anti tank and that's pretty good I think. The 6+++, and 2+WS/BS is worth the 20 points over a normal dread IMO. 152 for a more versatile powerfist/SB Twinlas loadout does not seem terrible either, but kind of steps on the toes of the redemptor a bit who has 5 more wounds, is faster and spits out more shots, but does degrade.
The Redemptor is efficient now. It doesn't fill a role since it's got really generic firepower, but it's efficient.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: With dreadnoughts coming down a fair bit in points do you guys plan on using any? The redemptor went down 45 or some odd points and looks alright at around 161 for his dakka bot loadout all the while having some decent melee ability and wounds to take a few hits.
Venerable dreads are 140 for ML Twinlas anti tank and that's pretty good I think. The 6+++, and 2+WS/BS is worth the 20 points over a normal dread IMO. 152 for a more versatile powerfist/SB Twinlas loadout does not seem terrible either, but kind of steps on the toes of the redemptor a bit who has 5 more wounds, is faster and spits out more shots, but does degrade.
The Redemptor is efficient now. It doesn't fill a role since it's got really generic firepower, but it's efficient.
I think the problem of Redemptor is, if it moves, it hit on 4s, which is just "ok" fir a gun platform, if its target have a -1 to hit, it hits with Ork accurracy, which is terrible.
So with Sternguard being only slightly more expensive than tactical, I was wondering if I could get away with simply painting the pauldron trim white on my unassembled tactical marines and running them as sternguard.
Asherian Command wrote: If redemptor had a levithian load out with two onslaught cannons they would be the best unit in the space marine codex.
Nonsense. It already carries 1.5.
Trade in a legitimate melee threat for 6 more damage 1 shots at range? No, thank you.
Melee means nothing this edition. Its why people go full on Levi Dreads with storm cannons.
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GreatGranpapy wrote: So with Sternguard being only slightly more expensive than tactical, I was wondering if I could get away with simply painting the pauldron trim white on my unassembled tactical marines and running them as sternguard.
go for it. I take intercessors as my troop choice anyway. As they are a far more effective troop choice.
Sternguards act more like the veteran tactical squads of 30k.
Asherian Command wrote: If redemptor had a levithian load out with two onslaught cannons they would be the best unit in the space marine codex.
Nonsense. It already carries 1.5.
Trade in a legitimate melee threat for 6 more damage 1 shots at range? No, thank you.
He's right though. It would be a buff in many ways. #1 is you don't need to move anymore. #2 is you would cost significantly less. I'd take that in a heartbeat.
I think I have gotten the redemptor into CC a total of 2 times probably playing it in 15 games. The melle profile is nearly wasted on it.
Then you aren't using it right. They've been MVPs for me lately - too many other, more important threats so they can't be focused, and just walked them up the board to an objective or a big, hard target. Punched a Knight to death.
Give them a chance with proper heavy armour saturation, positioning, and movement rather than just lining up your plastic toys and rolling dice on planet bowling ball.
A heavyweight of fire outdoes all melee combat this edition. Space marines are a gunline army this edition. I will not take vanguard veterans, assault marines, or close combat weapons for my army. There is no reason to if I want to win in the shooting phases.
You could also build it so it is only meant for shooting, shooting dreads are used all the time. And anything that is cheaper is usually the go-to for most lists... Do I want a redempetor that i sometimes use in close combat? Or a mobile shooting platform to blow away all my opponents from afar? An additional 4 damage is 4 damage. You can deal with 4 separate targets and mow down entire groups of infantry then. It would also eliminate its biggest problem which is having to move.
I know they're index but I'm in the process of building three venerable dreadnaughts with heavy plasma and twin auto cannons for 126 pts each. They seem a bargain to me, not financially of course but that's forgeworld for you!
With the rather large point drops in CA are Land Raiders finally viable at all? I've always loved the idea of a Crusader surging into the enemy lines and disgorging 16 Marines into the breach, is this worth trying now?
It's certainly worth trying. Just don't count as shooting with it much, since even some gretchin assaulting it is enough to completely shut down its shooting.
Asherian Command wrote: If redemptor had a levithian load out with two onslaught cannons they would be the best unit in the space marine codex.
Man oh man I wish that was a thing. I work it out to be 169 points if it was and I would definitely take 2 at least and then a Sicaran punisher and that would be all my big anti-horde sorted.
How do people actually run marine armies now? I've got a Deathwatch force which I've used once but have started painting a crimson fist force from the models I have left over.
I would like to start with a squad of intercessors and some scout snipers as they are the models I have available but after that have no idea how to build them, in guessing were looking at a gunline??
Now that the Primaris Captain got a price cut, the point difference between a Primaris Captain and a Primaris Lieutenant has gotten even more absurd. Eight points buys you better BS Wounds, Attacks and LD, better aura and weapon options and 4+ invulnerable save. It is just bonkers. The way they keep making these lieutenant models, I'd imagine they'd want people to actually use them. Whilst you might want both auras, you'd always get a second Captain before you get a second Lieutenant, which from the fluff perspective is just wrong.
Rogerio134134 wrote: How do people actually run marine armies now? I've got a Deathwatch force which I've used once but have started painting a crimson fist force from the models I have left over.
I would like to start with a squad of intercessors and some scout snipers as they are the models I have available but after that have no idea how to build them, in guessing were looking at a gunline??
I play Ultramarines and use Ven Dreadnoughts. I prefer less wounds but a better BS and not degrading. Also a 6+++. I was thinking get one Redmptor for my army but, I will continue with my Venerable with Autocannon and Combat weapon. I know close combat is not the best option, but many times it saves my infantry squads.
Some day I will buy a Leviathan, some day, still have a big grey wave to assemble and paint.
I am beginning to run a mix of Straight Marines and Primaris. They are just so many normal marines that do their job so well...
Luckily I have now enough models to assemble and paint that maybe I will finish them once a new Primaris wave arrives with better rules.
Nice, im thinking of running an Astartes detachment along side my Deathwatch. Dual battalion, the marines will sit at the back Crimson fist detachment from vigilus and defend while the Deathwatch mixed kill teams go forward and take the enemy on.
Valkyrie wrote: With the rather large point drops in CA are Land Raiders finally viable at all? I've always loved the idea of a Crusader surging into the enemy lines and disgorging 16 Marines into the breach, is this worth trying now?
Possibly. I think the Land Raider is something you might take to draw significant fire away from other targets/use as a moving LOS blocker. For the Crusader, it also seems like you could deliver some CC troops, too.
Land Raiders are still pretty..... Erm valuable but they seem to work best with termies now. Ever since both received drops might be worth it to run deathwing now with some land raiders to carry the payloads.
As long as they can be THAT easily stopped from moving forward and/or shooting, they'll never be worth it. Heck, they would've been below mediocre at the codex price if they had a Steel Behemoth equivalent.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: As long as they can be THAT easily stopped from moving forward and/or shooting, they'll never be worth it. Heck, they would've been below mediocre at the codex price if they had a Steel Behemoth equivalent.
Well, Land Raiders need an invulnerable save and higher toughness, these things are supposed to be on par with baneblades. Yet they explode more often in my games than anything. (also doesn't help they are a gun magnet)
I love land raiders but I don't see myself running them due to how easy it is to pop em.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: As long as they can be THAT easily stopped from moving forward and/or shooting, they'll never be worth it. Heck, they would've been below mediocre at the codex price if they had a Steel Behemoth equivalent.
Well, Land Raiders need an invulnerable save and higher toughness, these things are supposed to be on par with baneblades. Yet they explode more often in my games than anything. (also doesn't help they are a gun magnet)
I love land raiders but I don't see myself running them due to how easy it is to pop em.
They're already packing a 2+ save. For once I don't think durability is the issue but rather the fact they're stopped by even a mere Guardsman charging it.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: As long as they can be THAT easily stopped from moving forward and/or shooting, they'll never be worth it. Heck, they would've been below mediocre at the codex price if they had a Steel Behemoth equivalent.
Well, Land Raiders need an invulnerable save and higher toughness, these things are supposed to be on par with baneblades. Yet they explode more often in my games than anything. (also doesn't help they are a gun magnet)
I love land raiders but I don't see myself running them due to how easy it is to pop em.
They're already packing a 2+ save. For once I don't think durability is the issue but rather the fact they're stopped by even a mere Guardsman charging it.
So like the rule that fellblades and falchions have (which are still far too expensive and why they are listed as relics i'll have no idea). Which allows them to shoot out of combat. Makes sense. They are literal god machines.
Insectum7 wrote: Dreadnought with Plasma Cannon and Missile Launcher comes in at 96 points now. That seems like a solid buy.
Plasma cannon cheaper than assault cannon still boggles the damn mind.
You have to look at optimized targets and the prices of the gun.
Okay... and? A higher strength weapon with a supercharged profile? The assault cannon has less strength, a bit more range, but has more consistent attack?
Insectum7 wrote: Dreadnought with Plasma Cannon and Missile Launcher comes in at 96 points now. That seems like a solid buy.
Plasma cannon cheaper than assault cannon still boggles the damn mind.
You have to look at optimized targets and the prices of the gun.
Okay... and? A higher strength weapon with a supercharged profile? The assault cannon has less strength, a bit more range, but has more consistent attack?
The Plasma Cannon is 15 points, right? So look at it as 3 Plasma Cannons vs 2 Assault Cannons. So you're either at:
1. 12 S6 AP-1 shots
2. 3D3 S8 AP-3 D2 shots
Insectum7 wrote: Dreadnought with Plasma Cannon and Missile Launcher comes in at 96 points now. That seems like a solid buy.
Plasma cannon cheaper than assault cannon still boggles the damn mind.
You have to look at optimized targets and the prices of the gun.
Okay... and? A higher strength weapon with a supercharged profile? The assault cannon has less strength, a bit more range, but has more consistent attack?
The Plasma Cannon is 15 points, right? So look at it as 3 Plasma Cannons vs 2 Assault Cannons. So you're either at:
1. 12 S6 AP-1 shots
2. 3D3 S8 AP-3 D2 shots
Insectum7 wrote: Dreadnought with Plasma Cannon and Missile Launcher comes in at 96 points now. That seems like a solid buy.
Plasma cannon cheaper than assault cannon still boggles the damn mind.
You have to look at optimized targets and the prices of the gun.
Okay... and? A higher strength weapon with a supercharged profile? The assault cannon has less strength, a bit more range, but has more consistent attack?
The Plasma Cannon is 15 points, right? So look at it as 3 Plasma Cannons vs 2 Assault Cannons. So you're either at:
1. 12 S6 AP-1 shots
2. 3D3 S8 AP-3 D2 shots
They're clearly optimized vs different topics.
And yet despite their different targets, assault cannons are better at killing mini marines than cultists point for point, and plasma only becomes marginally more efficient at killing marines when overcharged; yet a plasma weapon easily makes its points back when it begins to target Primaris and other 2 wound infantry...that cost more points. If anything plasma should pay for its two profiles and Jack-of-all-trades, master-of-most no-brainer status while things like assault cannons need to be cheaper because they have consequences for moving, unlike some plasma varieties, and need to close the gap, unlike the plasma cannon.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: As long as they can be THAT easily stopped from moving forward and/or shooting, they'll never be worth it. Heck, they would've been below mediocre at the codex price if they had a Steel Behemoth equivalent.
Well, Land Raiders need an invulnerable save and higher toughness, these things are supposed to be on par with baneblades. Yet they explode more often in my games than anything. (also doesn't help they are a gun magnet)
I love land raiders but I don't see myself running them due to how easy it is to pop em.
They're already packing a 2+ save. For once I don't think durability is the issue but rather the fact they're stopped by even a mere Guardsman charging it.
Yeah, anything with a 2+ doesn't need an invuln unless it's facing something scarier than a lascannon. Land Raiders don't have the rules to make their schtick work but their stats are fine.
So, does Slamguinius have some competition from a Black Templars Captain (Sigismash?) now?
In a Sword Brethren detachment with the warlord trait, a BT Captain has 6 attacks, 7 if you pop the extra attack and reroll wounds stratagem. You don't get 3D6 charge range or Death Visions/Black Rage, but you get the extra wound due and toughness due to being on a bike rather than using a Jump Pack. You don't get no Overwatch, but you get the Shield Eternal, making you ridiculously tanky. You also have the option of popping the 5+++ stratagem, which is better than Slamguinius's equivalent. +1 to wound is worse than rerolling failed wounds against everything except things with T16 or higher (is there even anything that high?).
AlmightyWalrus wrote: So, does Slamguinius have some competition from a Black Templars Captain (Sigismash?) now?
In a Sword Brethren detachment with the warlord trait, a BT Captain has 6 attacks, 7 if you pop the extra attack and reroll wounds stratagem. You don't get 3D6 charge range or Death Visions/Black Rage, but you get the extra wound due and toughness due to being on a bike rather than using a Jump Pack. You don't get no Overwatch, but you get the Shield Eternal, making you ridiculously tanky. You also have the option of popping the 5+++ stratagem, which is better than Slamguinius's equivalent. +1 to wound is worse than rerolling failed wounds against everything except things with T16 or higher (is there even anything that high?).
Thoughts?
He still runs into the problem of getting to the targets that he wants to smash. What was huge for the slamguinius is that he could 3d6 charge, re-roll it, and fly over screens on top of having a small base so it was very easy for him to get into position. The other equivalents just don't have that ability at all and the ability the blood angel had has been heavily nerfed with the loss of fly working in the charge phase. The BT captain on bike is a beast for sure, but against the prime targets he wants to go for (a knight) he is just going to get bogged down by trash and fodder.
Just noticed last night that the Servo Arm is now free. That's a welcome savings off the Thunderfire Cannon. Might have to do a couple of those up now.
Insectum7 wrote: Just noticed last night that the Servo Arm is now free. That's a welcome savings off the Thunderfire Cannon. Might have to do a couple of those up now.
Thunderfire Cannons are maybe one of our better options vs screening units. My primary issue is that they don't use the BS2+ of the Techmarine, but oh well.
Insectum7 wrote: Just noticed last night that the Servo Arm is now free. That's a welcome savings off the Thunderfire Cannon. Might have to do a couple of those up now.
Thunderfire Cannons are maybe one of our better options vs screening units. My primary issue is that they don't use the BS2+ of the Techmarine, but oh well.
How much were Servo Arms again?
13 points I believe and the techmarine gunner has a servo harness so he went down 26 points. 93 points for the thunderfire now.
Insectum7 wrote: Just noticed last night that the Servo Arm is now free. That's a welcome savings off the Thunderfire Cannon. Might have to do a couple of those up now.
Thunderfire Cannons are maybe one of our better options vs screening units. My primary issue is that they don't use the BS2+ of the Techmarine, but oh well.
How much were Servo Arms again?
Used to be 12. The gunner had to pay 24 extra points for just standing there. Thunderfire is now 90ish, as is the Vengeance Whirlwind. Not sure which one I like better atm. Whirlwind is kind of an indirect Autocannons set up. Both are tempting.
The Hunter, as disappointing as the gun is, is now 80 points for 11 T8 wounds. That's kind of amusing.
Klone12 wrote: Is there a unit tier list in this thread?
Is so which page?
Same for leviathan dread analysis.
Also, are leviathan still good?
Basically i'll be the first and only marines player in our group in like... 8 years, thanks to the supremacy box.
Opponents are exclusively Aeldari (all sorts), tau, tyranids, knights, some tzeetch, and 1 necron guy.
we certainly have no guard or SM.
no unit tiers will be relevant except in the last few weeks thanks to CA.
Tacticals and assault marines are at the very bottom. Never take.
Scouts at the very top, always take.
But for actual serious damage I don't know. There's nothing that combines overwhelming firepower and good survivability. Heck there's nothing with one or the other. There's no SM unit that does what bad moons lootas will or can survive what they do. There's nothing that compares to custodes jetbikes. Or a knight. Just... nothing. If you are playing in a meta where people are taking and spamming a whole lot of overpowered units with the proper support, there is nothing you can do with space marines to compete.
Sternguard definitely got considerably better. 16 points to the 13 of the Tactical, and you can either get double the attacks, or either double the Bolter shots or a longer range Bolter with better AP.
stratigo wrote: There's no SM unit that does what bad moons lootas will or can survive what they do. There's nothing that compares to custodes jetbikes. Or a knight. Just... nothing. If you are playing in a meta where people are taking and spamming a whole lot of overpowered units with the proper support, there is nothing you can do with space marines to compete.
So I'm familiar with Custodes Jetbikes and Castellans, but Bad Moons Lootas? I'm not aware of their stats, but I'd be surprised if we couldn't match them for damage output.
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Sternguard definitely got considerably better. 16 points to the 13 of the Tactical, and you can either get double the attacks, or either double the Bolter shots or a longer range Bolter with better AP.
stratigo wrote: There's no SM unit that does what bad moons lootas will or can survive what they do. There's nothing that compares to custodes jetbikes. Or a knight. Just... nothing. If you are playing in a meta where people are taking and spamming a whole lot of overpowered units with the proper support, there is nothing you can do with space marines to compete.
So I'm familiar with Custodes Jetbikes and Castellans, but Bad Moons Lootas? I'm not aware of their stats, but I'd be surprised if we couldn't match them for damage output.
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Sternguard definitely got considerably better. 16 points to the 13 of the Tactical, and you can either get double the attacks, or either double the Bolter shots or a longer range Bolter with better AP.
Makes me sad for Tacs, but it is what it is.
Bad moon lootas are beneficiaries of a cascade of strategums that see them shooting roughly 50 autocannon shots that get extra shots on 5s and 6s and then shoots again. It is extremely efficient at killing everything lighter than a knight. Space marine units would dissolve.
Insectum7 wrote: ^Wheather or not Space Marines would dissolve is beside the point. Im curious about specifics, how many shots, how many points, BS, S, AP, etc.
They fire Autocannon equivalents with D3 shots for the squad (which is a good use for the reroll Strategem), and with DDD the firepower is okay. Bad Moons reroll 1's to hit for range attacks.
How's the vigilus Astartes detachments?? Tempted to get vigilus defiant as it looks a good book but also for the detachments. I've got crimson fists and fancied giving them a run out with the new detachment.
The Siegebreaker might even be good if Centurions were good. They're each still near the cost of a Dread. The Ultramarine and Crimson Fists ones are usable. That's about it.
Rogerio134134 wrote: New crimson fists rules and index Astartes in the next wd! Looks like I'll be getting that then due by fists.
What do you mean by new Crimson Fist rules?
They got a pretty nasty strategem in Vigilus defiant. At the end of the ENEMY shooting phase you can spend 1 cp to have one of your units (from a liberator detachment) that was targeted by shooting attacks make an immediate shooting attack as if it were your shooting phase. Alongside the sub-commander trait, you could turn an LT into a re-roll hits with 9" and re-roll wounds within 6". Meaning that the 5 man hellblaster squads can now fire back if they aren't completely wiped out AND they can be buffed with both reroll ones for an incredibly cheap HQ. They may end up becoming the defacto gunline for hellblasters.
Insectum7 wrote: ^Wheather or not Space Marines would dissolve is beside the point. Im curious about specifics, how many shots, how many points, BS, S, AP, etc.
They fire Autocannon equivalents with D3 shots for the squad (which is a good use for the reroll Strategem), and with DDD the firepower is okay. Bad Moons reroll 1's to hit for range attacks.
An Ork firing an Autocannon seems like something Space Marines ought to be able to beat. Looking around a bit the danger seems to come from the fact that they come in giant squads.
Rogerio134134 wrote: New crimson fists rules and index Astartes in the next wd! Looks like I'll be getting that then due by fists.
What do you mean by new Crimson Fist rules?
They got a pretty nasty strategem in Vigilus defiant. At the end of the ENEMY shooting phase you can spend 1 cp to have one of your units (from a liberator detachment) that was targeted by shooting attacks make an immediate shooting attack as if it were your shooting phase. Alongside the sub-commander trait, you could turn an LT into a re-roll hits with 9" and re-roll wounds within 6". Meaning that the 5 man hellblaster squads can now fire back if they aren't completely wiped out AND they can be buffed with both reroll ones for an incredibly cheap HQ. They may end up becoming the defacto gunline for hellblasters.
Someone said new Chapter Tactics. I'm more trying to get to the bottom of that.
Rogerio134134 wrote: New crimson fists rules and index Astartes in the next wd! Looks like I'll be getting that then due by fists.
What do you mean by new Crimson Fist rules?
They got a pretty nasty strategem in Vigilus defiant. At the end of the ENEMY shooting phase you can spend 1 cp to have one of your units (from a liberator detachment) that was targeted by shooting attacks make an immediate shooting attack as if it were your shooting phase. Alongside the sub-commander trait, you could turn an LT into a re-roll hits with 9" and re-roll wounds within 6". Meaning that the 5 man hellblaster squads can now fire back if they aren't completely wiped out AND they can be buffed with both reroll ones for an incredibly cheap HQ. They may end up becoming the defacto gunline for hellblasters.
It has stiff competition with weapons of the dark age for the hellblaster murder blob. It does get the benefit of the banner of emperor ascendant though
Rogerio134134 wrote: New crimson fists rules and index Astartes in the next wd! Looks like I'll be getting that then due by fists.
What do you mean by new Crimson Fist rules?
They got a pretty nasty strategem in Vigilus defiant. At the end of the ENEMY shooting phase you can spend 1 cp to have one of your units (from a liberator detachment) that was targeted by shooting attacks make an immediate shooting attack as if it were your shooting phase. Alongside the sub-commander trait, you could turn an LT into a re-roll hits with 9" and re-roll wounds within 6". Meaning that the 5 man hellblaster squads can now fire back if they aren't completely wiped out AND they can be buffed with both reroll ones for an incredibly cheap HQ. They may end up becoming the defacto gunline for hellblasters.
Someone said new Chapter Tactics. I'm more trying to get to the bottom of that.
That seems to be straight conjecture on some people's part. New Warlord Traits, Relics, and Stratagems are all that seem to be confirmed at this point.
Rogerio134134 wrote: New crimson fists rules and index Astartes in the next wd! Looks like I'll be getting that then due by fists.
What do you mean by new Crimson Fist rules?
They got a pretty nasty strategem in Vigilus defiant. At the end of the ENEMY shooting phase you can spend 1 cp to have one of your units (from a liberator detachment) that was targeted by shooting attacks make an immediate shooting attack as if it were your shooting phase. Alongside the sub-commander trait, you could turn an LT into a re-roll hits with 9" and re-roll wounds within 6". Meaning that the 5 man hellblaster squads can now fire back if they aren't completely wiped out AND they can be buffed with both reroll ones for an incredibly cheap HQ. They may end up becoming the defacto gunline for hellblasters.
It has stiff competition with weapons of the dark age for the hellblaster murder blob. It does get the benefit of the banner of emperor ascendant though
Should've clarified for codex marines. I still feel the Azrael/10Hellblasters/WotDA is probably more deadly (the jump from 2 damage to 3 is huge)
Rogerio134134 wrote: New crimson fists rules and index Astartes in the next wd! Looks like I'll be getting that then due by fists.
What do you mean by new Crimson Fist rules?
They got a pretty nasty strategem in Vigilus defiant. At the end of the ENEMY shooting phase you can spend 1 cp to have one of your units (from a liberator detachment) that was targeted by shooting attacks make an immediate shooting attack as if it were your shooting phase. Alongside the sub-commander trait, you could turn an LT into a re-roll hits with 9" and re-roll wounds within 6". Meaning that the 5 man hellblaster squads can now fire back if they aren't completely wiped out AND they can be buffed with both reroll ones for an incredibly cheap HQ. They may end up becoming the defacto gunline for hellblasters.
It has stiff competition with weapons of the dark age for the hellblaster murder blob. It does get the benefit of the banner of emperor ascendant though
Should've clarified for codex marines. I still feel the Azrael/10Hellblasters/WotDA is probably more deadly (the jump from 2 damage to 3 is huge)
Yeah, but using Heroes of Rynn's World generates two hits from each 6 to hit, so with rerolls to hit, the damage goes up anyway. It doesn't quite do the same amount at WotDA, but it does make it closer. But they aren't going to be rocking a 4++ though.
I am going to be running 10Hellblasters/Expert Instructor LT/Ancient
If they shoot at me, I shoot back (even the dead guys). I might stick an Apothecary nearby to resurrect dead Hellblasters. But that ends up being a big blob of points. The LT and Ancient are cheaper than Azrael too.
Rogerio134134 wrote: New crimson fists rules and index Astartes in the next wd! Looks like I'll be getting that then due by fists.
What do you mean by new Crimson Fist rules?
They got a pretty nasty strategem in Vigilus defiant. At the end of the ENEMY shooting phase you can spend 1 cp to have one of your units (from a liberator detachment) that was targeted by shooting attacks make an immediate shooting attack as if it were your shooting phase. Alongside the sub-commander trait, you could turn an LT into a re-roll hits with 9" and re-roll wounds within 6". Meaning that the 5 man hellblaster squads can now fire back if they aren't completely wiped out AND they can be buffed with both reroll ones for an incredibly cheap HQ. They may end up becoming the defacto gunline for hellblasters.
It has stiff competition with weapons of the dark age for the hellblaster murder blob. It does get the benefit of the banner of emperor ascendant though
Should've clarified for codex marines. I still feel the Azrael/10Hellblasters/WotDA is probably more deadly (the jump from 2 damage to 3 is huge)
Yeah, but using Heroes of Rynn's World generates two hits from each 6 to hit, so with rerolls to hit, the damage goes up anyway. It doesn't quite do the same amount at WotDA, but it does make it closer. But they aren't going to be rocking a 4++ though.
I am going to be running 10Hellblasters/Expert Instructor LT/Ancient
If they shoot at me, I shoot back (even the dead guys). I might stick an Apothecary nearby to resurrect dead Hellblasters. But that ends up being a big blob of points. The LT and Ancient are cheaper than Azrael too.
Don't over commit points, hellblasters can still be tied down and made ineffective. Guilleman helped with this because of how much of a melee beatstick he was (and UM CT's are actually really good for hellblasters). You'll want to spend points on the screens for them.
Rogerio134134 wrote: New crimson fists rules and index Astartes in the next wd! Looks like I'll be getting that then due by fists.
What do you mean by new Crimson Fist rules?
They got a pretty nasty strategem in Vigilus defiant. At the end of the ENEMY shooting phase you can spend 1 cp to have one of your units (from a liberator detachment) that was targeted by shooting attacks make an immediate shooting attack as if it were your shooting phase. Alongside the sub-commander trait, you could turn an LT into a re-roll hits with 9" and re-roll wounds within 6". Meaning that the 5 man hellblaster squads can now fire back if they aren't completely wiped out AND they can be buffed with both reroll ones for an incredibly cheap HQ. They may end up becoming the defacto gunline for hellblasters.
It has stiff competition with weapons of the dark age for the hellblaster murder blob. It does get the benefit of the banner of emperor ascendant though
Should've clarified for codex marines. I still feel the Azrael/10Hellblasters/WotDA is probably more deadly (the jump from 2 damage to 3 is huge)
Yeah, but using Heroes of Rynn's World generates two hits from each 6 to hit, so with rerolls to hit, the damage goes up anyway. It doesn't quite do the same amount at WotDA, but it does make it closer. But they aren't going to be rocking a 4++ though.
I am going to be running 10Hellblasters/Expert Instructor LT/Ancient
If they shoot at me, I shoot back (even the dead guys). I might stick an Apothecary nearby to resurrect dead Hellblasters. But that ends up being a big blob of points. The LT and Ancient are cheaper than Azrael too.
Don't over commit points, hellblasters can still be tied down and made ineffective. Guilleman helped with this because of how much of a melee beatstick he was (and UM CT's are actually really good for hellblasters). You'll want to spend points on the screens for them.
Six 5-man squads of Intercessors help out with that. And 21 for the Hellblasters plus those of the Lieutenant(I run two Power Sword LTs) are pretty damn good. I wish they could take a Power Fist on their Sergeant too, but such is life. But yeah, I am thinking it will just be the Ancient and LT backing the Hellblasters, the Apothecary would be overkill. Still 37 pts cheaper than Azrael. Likely putting the Standard of the Emperor Ascendant on the Ancient as well (Primaris Ancient for the extra wound).
At any rate, the fact they are a big bubble of nope means they are going to draw fire, which means they shoot back(possibly with Heroes of Rynn's World for additional shots). And then my Aggressors get ignored. I dunno, it isn't broken by any means, but it is a pretty mean combo.
Someone said new Chapter Tactics. I'm more trying to get to the bottom of that.
Well, according to today's preview, the Crimson Fists Index Astarters article will, in fact, have Chapter Tactics in it, in addition to Warlord Traits, Relics, and Stratagems.
I am curious what those Chapter Tactics will be. Will they just be a reprint of the Codex Chapter Tactic, or something new. I have grown accustomed to not having to worry about cover, so losing Ignores Cover on everyone would kind of suck. Also, the Emperor's Spears' Chapter Tactics was pretty lackluster, hopefully the new Crimson Fists one is better than that. I really hope it isn't something stupid and focused on Orks.
I'll be only using what I ordered for starters :
4 Supremacy force
A Redemptor box
A Primaris librarian
5 Leviathan dreads
I also have access to a friend's 5 Whirlwinds.
My first game with my primaris will be using the new Cities of death rules and stratagem @4k points vs 1 CraftWorld/Drukhari alliance (2k/2k).
Having everything glued & magnetised for end of January will be a challenge in itself
What do we think of Company Veterans on Bikes with Storm Bolters and Storm Shields? Sure, they're 180 for 5, but they're T5, 2 wounds, 3++ and put out 40 shots in rapid fire range, and can get 5+++ if you're running them as BT from the Sword Brethren stratagem. Too vulnerable to Disintegrators and the like?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Even with the 3++, they're each almost 40 points. That's too much.
I don't think it's all that bad. Compare it to the equal cost of a DW storm bolter/storm shield bomb. It's basically a codex marine version of it - carries the same number of 3++ wounds, same number of shots, but trades SIA for 8'' more in movement, T5, the ability to tank wounds for mobile beatstick characters, and depending on the chapter might have some decent tactics to play with. Thanks to the 3++, most 2 damage weapons aren't all that efficient at killing them.
I think that's a pretty good price for all that.
Especially with the new missions in play that reward mobility.
Im considering removing hellblasters from my list as theyve become quite expensive compared to our other AT options. What are you guys taking for mid-field anti tank weapons? I feel like most are taking backline like devs and rapiers.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Even with the 3++, they're each almost 40 points. That's too much.
I don't think it's all that bad. Compare it to the equal cost of a DW storm bolter/storm shield bomb. It's basically a codex marine version of it - carries the same number of 3++ wounds, same number of shots, but trades SIA for 8'' more in movement, T5, the ability to tank wounds for mobile beatstick characters, and depending on the chapter might have some decent tactics to play with. Thanks to the 3++, most 2 damage weapons aren't all that efficient at killing them.
I think that's a pretty good price for all that.
Especially with the new missions in play that reward mobility.
There are several D2 weapons that won't care about the 3++.
Also the SIA is definitely a deal breaker.
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ultimentra wrote: Im considering removing hellblasters from my list as theyve become quite expensive compared to our other AT options. What are you guys taking for mid-field anti tank weapons? I feel like most are taking backline like devs and rapiers.
Rapiers are actually a decent deal. Ven Dreads with the LC/ML are also much more attractive after the price cut they received.
Rapiers are actually a decent deal. Ven Dreads with the LC/ML are also much more attractive after the price cut they received.
My LGS has a Salamander's player who rolls with Laser Destroyer Rapiers. They're swingy as hell, but goddamn hilarious when they do something like vaporize a Land Raider with one shot.
Rapiers are actually a decent deal. Ven Dreads with the LC/ML are also much more attractive after the price cut they received.
My LGS has a Salamander's player who rolls with Laser Destroyer Rapiers. They're swingy as hell, but goddamn hilarious when they do something like vaporize a Land Raider with one shot.
Salamanders don't help the batteries themselves as they don't get Chapter Tactics, in case they've been playing wrong.
Salamanders don't help the batteries themselves as they don't get Chapter Tactics, in case they've been playing wrong.
He plays Salamanders entirely for fluff reasons, and is aware of the weirdness that is <CHAPTER> when it comes to the SM codex.
To be honest anyone still playing Codex marines is playing for fluff, but good on him for dipping into the forgeworld stuff to keep marine's in the casually viable army club.
IMHO 8th edition has very much split into two/three seperate games currently, fluff only armies, mono viable and GT winning soup.
While it's good that Marines got a lot of pointa cuts in CA 2018, I'm still not convinced that they have jumped up enough to really be a viable list in competitive settings.
Salamanders don't help the batteries themselves as they don't get Chapter Tactics, in case they've been playing wrong.
He plays Salamanders entirely for fluff reasons, and is aware of the weirdness that is <CHAPTER> when it comes to the SM codex.
To be honest anyone still playing Codex marines is playing for fluff, but good on him for dipping into the forgeworld stuff to keep marine's in the casually viable army club.
IMHO 8th edition has very much split into two/three seperate games currently, fluff only armies, mono viable and GT winning soup.
While it's good that Marines got a lot of pointa cuts in CA 2018, I'm still not convinced that they have jumped up enough to really be a viable list in competitive settings.
Especially when you consider Deathwatch got the same point drops.
Compare a single Deathwatch Vet at 15 points to a Tactical or Chaos Marine. For 2 points (gotta include the Bolter), you get an extra attack (or two extra if you went for Chainsword over Pistol), extra LD, and SIA.
Add in that you can sprinkle Storm Shields as you please and the benefits of squashing in either Vanguard or Terminators...
So, saw this leak pop up over on the news thread...Crimson Fists rules, but they aren't consistent in the thread so it's either they wren't rea they aren't real - take with salt, as usual.
New Chapter Tactics: +1 to hit against units with more models than your attacking unit (later in the thread it's mentioned that this applies only if the unit has TWICE as many models as the attacking unit, so conflicting information - looks to be Dreads count as 5)
Warlord Traits:
Tenacious Opponent: Same as Codex
Refuse to Die: Get back up on a 4+ with d3 wounds the first time you die
Stoic Defender: All Infantry, Bikers and Dreadnoughts gain Defenders of Humanity If they are within 6" of the Warlord. If they already had it, they count as 2 models per 1 model
Stratagems:
Bolter Drill: Same as Codex.
A Hated Foe: Target Unit rerolls all wounds against Ork units
Slay the Tyrant: Target Unit adds +1 to hit against Characters
Relics:
Fist of Vengeance: Same as Codex
Duty's Burden: Replaces Bolt Rifle 36", RF 2, Str 5, AP-2, D2
Thoughts? A few ramblings below...
At face value, the Chapter Tactic looks to be good for MSU units and single model units like Dreadnoughts - Redemptors that basically ignore the movement penalty by shooting something with at least 2 models? Okay. Got too excited before getting more info.
Bolter Drill could be amazing if you can get it to proc with the Chapter Tactic and the new Specialist Detachment.
Fist of Vengeance still boss. The new bolt rifle is weird since the only characters I can think of that can carry one is an Ancient...everyone else has auto or stalker, right?
So which Chapter Tactic for Crimson Fists is better?
Siege Masters: Ignore Cover and reroll wounds against buildings
No Matter the Odds: +1 to hit against units with twice as many models as your unit.
It seems like No Matter the Odds will do great against Hordes, or or even start to kick in as you take casualties against even MSU armies. Characters become very nasty since they will be able to trigger the +1 to hit fairly easily. It makes characters with Thunder Hammers or Power Fists pretty good. Things like Company Veterans with two models are going to be a little nuts.
Mentioned it in the other thread, but it's pretty interesting how one will have to play around with this new tactic. Units that benefit the most from +1 to hit will need to be selected for shooting first as the effect will drop in value as you cause casualties. Likewise, as you take casualties it starts to jump up more often. Should be fun.
Unless you're character hunting with your own characters, they'll be pretty potent with it. Definitely makes power fists on Intercessor Sergeants a common mainstay I think as well. MSU all the way here.
A pretty potent bolt rifle for a Primaris captain, too. Love that - gonna have to toss together some ideas on how to bling one up modeling wise.
Being able to ignore cover is great and all, but really battlefield and opponent dependent, I think. The building thing is worthless, of course. I think this is fluffier and has more depth.
It seems like, as the game goes on, Crimson Fists will become better shots. This is really helpful. I run MSU anyway (outside of my 10-Man Hellblaster Squad for using Heroes of Rynn's World to wreck face.), so I will be getting the benefit fairly easily. Most armies have a basic Troop that is 10+ models. So they will be shooting those troops pretty well. Guard, Tyranids, and Orks beware. Especially when the Aggressors show up.
All that does is further encourage MSU. Ignores Cover is a better benefit so I would recommend sticking with that. The rest though seems decent.
The revival trait is good. The Objective Secured is too specific (because Objective Secured is a non-rule) but I think it really only benefits Dreads in a funny manner if you're using them to camp and shoot.
Slay The Tyrant is actually really good. I like that.
The Bolt Rifle relic is about the same level as Primarchs Wrath. It's fine for a buffing character if you want them to actually contribute, and that's about it.
Tried making a brigade of Space Marines for the hell of it. Fast attack is pretty rough; you have a choice of landspeeders if you just want a cheap filler or inceptors if you want a useful unit. Was surprised to find out a dakka-predator is cheaper than a squad of hellblasters. Went for intercessors over scouts for useful units. All in all, this is probably an obvious statement, but a brigade of Space Marines doesn't use points all that efficiently.
GreatGranpapy wrote: Tried making a brigade of Space Marines for the hell of it. Fast attack is pretty rough; you have a choice of landspeeders if you just want a cheap filler or inceptors if you want a useful unit. Was surprised to find out a dakka-predator is cheaper than a squad of hellblasters. Went for intercessors over scouts for useful units. All in all, this is probably an obvious statement, but a brigade of Space Marines doesn't use points all that efficiently.
Even a battalion of spacemarines is a problem in finding efficient units for their points.
Most of the efficient units for their points are in either the elite or heavy slots, which punishes any attempt to leverage strategums.
Not to mention the kick in the nuts of vehicles being chapter for 0 benefits.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: All that does is further encourage MSU. Ignores Cover is a better benefit so I would recommend sticking with that. The rest though seems decent.
The revival trait is good. The Objective Secured is too specific (because Objective Secured is a non-rule) but I think it really only benefits Dreads in a funny manner if you're using them to camp and shoot.
Slay The Tyrant is actually really good. I like that.
The Bolt Rifle relic is about the same level as Primarchs Wrath. It's fine for a buffing character if you want them to actually contribute, and that's about it.
Agreed, though I think people will be surprised and how effective this CT is against large groups of chaff units.
"Black" Templar Brigade
Chapter Master on bike - PF/SS, Storm of Fire, BT Relic
JP Captain - TH/Ss LT - SB/CS
3x5 Crusaders - Plasma gun, plasma cannon, combi plas (Can easily swap to 3x5 scouts for any chapter)
3x5 Scouts
3x2 Veterans - SB/CS
3x1 Razorback - Asscan/SB 1x1 Razorback - TLLC
3x1 Tarantula Heavy Bolter
3x1 Predator - AC/LC/HKM
12 CP after you take the Chapter master upgrade. Has a 9" bubble for rerolls and storm of fire (Doubles total area of buff). BT can make it a sword brethern detachment if they want to turn the JP captain into an off-brand smash (1CP for form, 1CP for his WL trait, then 1 or 2 CP to activate his strats).
If you go first you will dumpster almost any big target in the game with killshot/storm of fire, but if you go second you're probably going to have a bad time. You need to hide all 3 preds out of LOS, then be able to move them close enough to eachother to activate KS and still have LOS to viable targets.
It's far from ideal, but it's one of the strongest non-UM builds we have available. I've won far more than I've lost, but victory lies so heavily in the hands of first turn (Or surviving first turn unscathed) that it's not exactly a reliable army to take to a GT.
GreatGranpapy wrote: Tried making a brigade of Space Marines for the hell of it. Fast attack is pretty rough; you have a choice of landspeeders if you just want a cheap filler or inceptors if you want a useful unit. Was surprised to find out a dakka-predator is cheaper than a squad of hellblasters. Went for intercessors over scouts for useful units. All in all, this is probably an obvious statement, but a brigade of Space Marines doesn't use points all that efficiently.
No better Fast Attack than the Tarantula Sentry Gun with the Heavy Bolters.
Lemondish wrote: The new bolt rifle is weird since the only characters I can think of that can carry one is an Ancient...everyone else has auto or stalker, right?
Wait! They couldn't be so stupid that they would have limited it to characters with regular bolt rifles only... Or could they?
Could someone who's seen the actual article clarify?
Lemondish wrote: The new bolt rifle is weird since the only characters I can think of that can carry one is an Ancient...everyone else has auto or stalker, right?
Wait! They couldn't be so stupid that they would have limited it to characters with regular bolt rifles only... Or could they?
Could someone who's seen the actual article clarify?
It works on mc Auto and mc Stalker Bolt Rifles as well, so LTs and Captains can take it.
Lemondish wrote: The new bolt rifle is weird since the only characters I can think of that can carry one is an Ancient...everyone else has auto or stalker, right?
Wait! They couldn't be so stupid that they would have limited it to characters with regular bolt rifles only... Or could they?
Could someone who's seen the actual article clarify?
Apologies for the confusion - I should have edited that post once I saw the picture of the page. It replaces the bolt rifle, mc auto, or mc stalker.
I'm thinking it works best on an LT with the Vigilus specialist detachment warlord trait. Both auras and a great Bolter to contribute with.
GreatGranpapy wrote: Tried making a brigade of Space Marines for the hell of it. Fast attack is pretty rough; you have a choice of landspeeders if you just want a cheap filler or inceptors if you want a useful unit. Was surprised to find out a dakka-predator is cheaper than a squad of hellblasters. Went for intercessors over scouts for useful units. All in all, this is probably an obvious statement, but a brigade of Space Marines doesn't use points all that efficiently.
Attack Bikes are suuuuper cheap now. 35 points for an Attack bike with a Heavy Bolter. 105 points fills your Fast Attack with fast, low profile, 3 Heavy Bolters and 6 Bolters. If you care to minimize elites, Command Squads can be in units of 2. Command Squads are great units, so I wouldn't necessarily do that, but it's another useful quirk.
GreatGranpapy wrote: Tried making a brigade of Space Marines for the hell of it. Fast attack is pretty rough; you have a choice of landspeeders if you just want a cheap filler or inceptors if you want a useful unit. Was surprised to find out a dakka-predator is cheaper than a squad of hellblasters. Went for intercessors over scouts for useful units. All in all, this is probably an obvious statement, but a brigade of Space Marines doesn't use points all that efficiently.
No better Fast Attack than the Tarantula Sentry Gun with the Heavy Bolters.
I have a feeling that the Heavy Bolter Version is indeed the superior one.
but i've see many report say its the assault cannon one.
Is there any point per wounds mathhammer on this?
Eihnlazer wrote: Generally speaking, 24" range on an unmoving turret isn't that good.
Bingo.
It would also be absurdly expensive. Basically, you pay 37 points for a BS4+ T5 TL Heavy Bolter. With that profile, you require some specific weapons to be the most efficient against killing it, and you can spread all three around wherever you want. Help keep an objective. Create a zone for the opponent not to Deep Strike.
Only 37 points. For an army like Marines, the Turrets and Scouts create invaluable tools.
Is there a current unit tierlist anywhere, like on some of the other tactics threads for other armies? Thinking of starting a two-chapter list, with celestial lions for ranged stuff using crimson fists rules and emperor's spears for fighting. And I was hoping to find something like what's at the start of the Ork thread, to get an idea of what would work best for that combo.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Honestly I hadn't bothered to look into the Specialist Detachment rules yet.
The crimson fists have the best one
Meh, maybe.
It's Primaris focused, and Primaris are still far too expensive for what they bring and have like zero real options. Not to mention the new tactics and strats from WD encourage them to go all MSU, which makes the units in the specialist detachment less potent with those strats. All in all it's a wash and I'd say it's pretty comparable to the Indomitus Crusaders one.
The Victrix one for Ultras is pretty potent. Makes some of those vanguard vets into actual threats.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Honestly I hadn't bothered to look into the Specialist Detachment rules yet.
The crimson fists have the best one
Meh, maybe.
It's Primaris focused, and Primaris are still far too expensive for what they bring and have like zero real options. Not to mention the new tactics and strats from WD encourage them to go all MSU, which makes the units in the specialist detachment less potent with those strats. All in all it's a wash and I'd say it's pretty comparable to the Indomitus Crusaders one.
The Victrix one for Ultras is pretty potent. Makes some of those vanguard vets into actual threats.
There isn't a good space marine unit though really. Buffing hellblasters is better than buffing vanguards. The victrix guard is utterly unexciting. It is hard to make a worthwhile van vet squad.
What's the sweet spot for normal intercessor squads?? I'm a crimson fist player so want a squad size large enough to take advantage of bolter drill and against all odds but don't want to get smashed for morale, imn thinking 7 would be a reasonable number ?
Rogerio134134 wrote: What's the sweet spot for normal intercessor squads?? I'm a crimson fist player so want a squad size large enough to take advantage of bolter drill and against all odds but don't want to get smashed for morale, imn thinking 7 would be a reasonable number ?
For Crimson Fists, the two best units to take advantage of Bolter Drill are Assault Centurions and Aggressors. Intercessors, even at 10 dudes, don't have as many shots for the points.
Rogerio134134 wrote: What's the sweet spot for normal intercessor squads?? I'm a crimson fist player so want a squad size large enough to take advantage of bolter drill and against all odds but don't want to get smashed for morale, imn thinking 7 would be a reasonable number ?
For Crimson Fists, the two best units to take advantage of Bolter Drill are Assault Centurions and Aggressors. Intercessors, even at 10 dudes, don't have as many shots for the points.
Both are also much more likely to gain No Matter the Odds given how small their units can be.
Rogerio134134 wrote: What's the sweet spot for normal intercessor squads?? I'm a crimson fist player so want a squad size large enough to take advantage of bolter drill and against all odds but don't want to get smashed for morale, imn thinking 7 would be a reasonable number ?
For Crimson Fists, the two best units to take advantage of Bolter Drill are Assault Centurions and Aggressors. Intercessors, even at 10 dudes, don't have as many shots for the points.
Both are also much more likely to gain No Matter the Odds given how small their units can be.
I think it was implied by the OP they wanted to get the 5+ Bolter Drill based on singular mention of Crimson Fists, but it's good to actually type it down.
Another unit we hadn't talked about (or at least I did not see brought up) was Plasma Inceptors. Against certain targets you'd be able to Overcharge and not worry about any penalty at all
So i traded a tyranid army at a local swap meet for a fully painted space marine force. I am pretty happy with what i received, but am now struggling with what chapter i should run them as.
Paint scheme is grey, with a red palm print on the shoulders, and deep blue for contrasting color / on the guns. This seems like it could easily fit into many different chapters for successor chapter.
The army seems like it is built well as well. It has over 30 scouts, 20 vanguard vets with chainswords, 20 more sternguard vets, a good mix of devistator heavy weapon options (3 laz, 3 missile, 3 hb, 2 multimelta, 2 plasma cannons), and a nice mix of hqs. Also had a dreadnought, 2 laz Razorbacks, a rhino, a las pred, 3 drop pods, and a storm talon.
No primaris thankfully. My questions though begin with standard space marines, i haven't looked at the base codex in probably 8 months. I have a lot of experience with space wolves and ravenwing, but not much vanilla sm. So what chapters are really still able to be useful in a semi competitive fashion? Sounds like vanguard vets are pretty nice if used properly (4 attacks base with 12" move thanks to chainswords and jump packs? Bezerkers aren't the only ones in a choppy mood) and sternguard can do a damn good impression of rubrics thanks to their special bolt rifles. But what other tricks do we have access to that makes us more than just a pretty face?
Ravenwing seems really good with vanguard vets. Sternguard look like they would work better as imperial fists. Iron hands flat 6+++ is also pretty nice though.... but the new crimson fist stuff has me interested thanks to some sick shinanigans i can see going on (4d3 mortal wounds potentially from a single heavy bolter in a dev squad in 1 round of shooting is stuuuuupid sick).
GreatGranpapy wrote: Predators are decent right? Finally got mine built and magnetized.
They have good firepower, however, they are quite squishy unfortunately.
That being said, I usually run 3 of them in the Autocannon/Lascannon configuration to pop killshot turn 1, with a reroll to hit and reroll to wound bubble handy.
GreatGranpapy wrote: Predators are decent right? Finally got mine built and magnetized.
Nope they pay too much for the privilege of a three plus in a system where toughness 7 armor splats pretty much immediately. Guard have to reach a critical mass to make russes work. And predators fail to get chapter tactics
With the new Crimson Fists' chapter tactic "against all odds" would you have to dump a single squad if shooting into a target, or could multiple squads fire at the same time?
For example, my 5 man intercessor shoots their bolt rifles into a 10 man infantry squad, so they hit on 2+ that's easy enough. Could 2 identical 5 man intercessor squads fire at the same 10 man infantry squad as even though it is 10 models total, they are two 5 model squads and as such should activate it.
Dr. Mills wrote: With the new Crimson Fists' chapter tactic "against all odds" would you have to dump a single squad if shooting into a target, or could multiple squads fire at the same time?
For example, my 5 man intercessor shoots their bolt rifles into a 10 man infantry squad, so they hit on 2+ that's easy enough. Could 2 identical 5 man intercessor squads fire at the same 10 man infantry squad as even though it is 10 models total, they are two 5 model squads and as such should activate it.
Thoughts?
All units shoot one at a time. So the first one fires and gets +1 and kill 4 guardsmen. Next squad does the same and gets plus 1 to hit because they are still outnumbered. They kill 4 as well. The 3rd intercessor squad fires this time, but now the infantry squad is only down to two guys and as such do not outnumber the third intercessor squad thus no +1 to hit,
Dr. Mills wrote: With the new Crimson Fists' chapter tactic "against all odds" would you have to dump a single squad if shooting into a target, or could multiple squads fire at the same time?
For example, my 5 man intercessor shoots their bolt rifles into a 10 man infantry squad, so they hit on 2+ that's easy enough. Could 2 identical 5 man intercessor squads fire at the same 10 man infantry squad as even though it is 10 models total, they are two 5 model squads and as such should activate it.
Thoughts?
Units fire one at a time.
So if the first squad killed 6 of the enemy, the second squad would not gain the benefit. If the first squad only killed 4, the second squad would still benefit.
"... attacks an enemy unit that contains twice as many models as their own."
So if a targeted unit of 10 by YOUR unit of 5, take a single casualty all other squads of 5 will lose their +1 to hit it.
Unless your shooting at nids, cultist blobs or orks, or taking heavy casualties (in which case you aint going to have much dakka left in the squad) its very... well... -shrugs-
Atron wrote: "... attacks an enemy unit that contains twice as many models as their own."
So if a targeted unit of 10 by YOUR unit of 5, take a single casualty all other squads of 5 will lose their +1 to hit it.
Unless your shooting at nids, cultist blobs or orks, or taking heavy casualties (in which case you aint going to have much dakka left in the squad) its very... well... -shrugs-
That's why Aggressors, Inceptors, and Assault Centurions are the best dudes for the new rules. Plus they all benefit from Bolter Drill.
GreatGranpapy wrote: Predators are decent right? Finally got mine built and magnetized.
Preds are decent, used to use them extensively till I swapped them out for a knight. They also got slightly better when they introduced the entrenched positions strategem. Although I only equipped them with the predator AC, because flat 3 damage guns (that can go to 4 damage guns) that absolutely shred lightly armored vehicles (like ravagers), yes please. But as others have pointed out, they are pretty squishy so I tend to go barebones when I use them, the lascannon sponsons just make them too much of a point sink.
It depends on the army and how your using the preds as well. They work amazing in my space wolf force, always take 3 there, because stormcaller puts them in cover and the strat to make them -1 to hit... predators that are save 2+ and -1 to hit are not going anywhere.
Regular/vanilla marine preds i think work best as just autocannon and heavy bolters. Makes them cheap enough but still a threat to be viable.
Has anyone run the veteran Chaplin dread from the imperial Armour? I’m debating using one and giving it the armor indomitus for the seeet 2+ save and 1 phase of 3++ possibly next to tiggy so it’s -1 to hit
IVIOOSE wrote: Has anyone run the veteran Chaplin dread from the imperial Armour? I’m debating using one and giving it the armor indomitus for the seeet 2+ save and 1 phase of 3++ possibly next to tiggy so it’s -1 to hit
ForgeWorld FAQd their Dreadnought so you can't give them Relics, sadly.
IVIOOSE wrote: Has anyone run the veteran Chaplin dread from the imperial Armour? I’m debating using one and giving it the armor indomitus for the seeet 2+ save and 1 phase of 3++ possibly next to tiggy so it’s -1 to hit
He's a cool dude for sure, granted limited in use. The TL Lascannon is now 10 points cheaper so I'd probably go that route.
IVIOOSE wrote: Has anyone run the veteran Chaplin dread from the imperial Armour? I’m debating using one and giving it the armor indomitus for the seeet 2+ save and 1 phase of 3++ possibly next to tiggy so it’s -1 to hit
ForgeWorld FAQd their Dreadnought so you can't give them Relics, sadly.
It really isn't like a lot of them were absurd. The complaints of the few really hurt everything else.
IVIOOSE wrote: Has anyone run the veteran Chaplin dread from the imperial Armour? I’m debating using one and giving it the armor indomitus for the seeet 2+ save and 1 phase of 3++ possibly next to tiggy so it’s -1 to hit
I have one, and it was pretty underwhelming when I fielded it. But I just ran it forwards in the open which was pretty dumb, so it's probably not a very good representation for him. Also I've had success in the past with the ironclad, so I'd imagine the Chaplain dread can fill the same role but better, as it has a 5++ and can't be targeted because it's a character.
How is the raider hellios? Just picked one up on eBay for my salamander army that I'm slowly putting together.
Seems like a decent option to stick some devastators in for a long range option.
kingheff wrote: How is the raider hellios? Just picked one up on eBay for my salamander army that I'm slowly putting together.
Seems like a decent option to stick some devastators in for a long range option.
Seeing as the Devastators can't fire out of it, why would you put them in there?
kingheff wrote: How is the raider hellios? Just picked one up on eBay for my salamander army that I'm slowly putting together.
Seems like a decent option to stick some devastators in for a long range option.
Seeing as the Devastators can't fire out of it, why would you put them in there?
Just to shield them from first round fire.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Since they're both likely to sit in the back field the transport is just a minor feature since you're unlikely to move the hellios forward much anyway. Roll in and jump out, blast away. The missiles look nice for digging out hidden units.
kingheff wrote: How is the raider hellios? Just picked one up on eBay for my salamander army that I'm slowly putting together.
Seems like a decent option to stick some devastators in for a long range option.
Seeing as the Devastators can't fire out of it, why would you put them in there?
Just to shield them from first round fire.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Since they're both likely to sit in the back field the transport is just a minor feature since you're unlikely to move the hellios forward much anyway. Roll in and jump out, blast away. The missiles look nice for digging out hidden units.
A Rhino is going to do that for SO much cheaper. Based on the fact that no Land Raider variant has a lot of firepower for the price and is easily stopped from firing anyway (THE LONE GENESTEALER CHARGES!), I think you can maybe put that idea on the back burner.
But does a rhino come with a 72" indirect fire missile launcher? I love the humble rhino, but apart from the transport capacity they're not really comparable units.
Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't take one to a major tournament but it's a tough tank with a decent amount of very long range firepower, a bit overcosted but it's hardly the only marine choice guilty of that.
Yes, it can be shut down by melee but so does everything bar units with fly and stuff like knights. At least the 48" range of the guns should keep it back from that happening too quickly.
Yeah, it may be good as a one trick pony (you may catch your opponent off guard with dropping it down the first time) but once they know you have it its not that hot.
Its like the land raider excelsior, the first time you drop it down and bump it up to t9 with a 3++ armor save (hello might of heros and pop that relic armor forcefield when you need to make it unkillable) it will catch your opponent off guard. Next time they will be ready for it and it won't do so hot.
How do people find Space Marines' performance after 2018 chapter approved?
Before the advent of 2018 chapter approved, I used to run two Iron Hands battalion detachments and Dawneagle Shield-Captain Supreme Command detachment.
To some degree, the addition of Custodes allies helped me supplement weaknesses of pure Space Marine detachments.
High Mobility, decent anti-horde firepower, respectable durability and close combat power filled many gaps in my Iron Hands list.
After chapter approved 2018 was released, I am running pure Iron Hands lists just to see by myself how much Space Marines were improved as mono-codex.
Or mono-chapter to be precise.
Price drops were clearly helpful for list building, as I could add another unit to my list.
For example, compared to the lists I used before 2018 chapter approved, I was able to add a twin-las razorback or a unit of company veterans with storm shields and plasma guns.
Despite being able to take slightly more units to the board, I still struggle against my fellow players who also prefer mono-faction lists.
Most of the time, they bring tyranids, death guard, thousand sons, craftworlds or harlequins.
The only time I was able to win was when dice were in my favour or when my opponents made huge mistakes.
True, the new chapter approved has improved Space Marine units by dropping points cost.
But I would like to say it is an improvement from F grade to D grade at best.
And such improvement is still lacking even when facing against lists with, say, B grade(non-soup, mono-death guard/craftworlds/tyranids).
I did not expect chapter approved to improve space marines to the level where they can stand a decent chance against competitive soup lists.
But struggling so much against relatively tame mono-faction lists makes me think whether or not I should keep playing space marines.
Perhaps playing Ultramarines list with Guilliman might improve my win rate.
But then again, there are already plenty of mates utilising Guilliman around me.
And I find homogenisation of lists monotonous and unhealthy for gaming environment.
Furthermore, even the said Ultramarines lists are struggling against aforementioned non-Space Marine mono-faction lists.
For example an Aeldari player, an acquaintance of mine, had no problem defeating Guilliman list with Ulthwe list or harlequins list.
I will still play more games to assess the impact of chapter approved on space marines.
However I am afraid my initial impression might stay unchanged.
Martel732 wrote: It gives me access to flakk missile strat and frag missiles. For 5 pts less. In a game full of invulns, I'm not feeling a 25 pt lascannon.
Frag sucks and you know that, and Flakk is hardly worth the worse profile in the first place.
I'll take any help vs hordes, and double flak missile from angry baby is amazing imo. It's any unit with fly, not just flyers. It would be different if the -3 ap wasn't so frequently negated. This also only applies to single lascannons.
Martel732 wrote: I'll take any help vs hordes, and double flak missile from angry baby is amazing imo. It's any unit with fly, not just flyers. It would be different if the -3 ap wasn't so frequently negated. This also only applies to single lascannons.
Help against hordes? You did the math even once, right?
Martel732 wrote: I'll take any help vs hordes, and double flak missile from angry baby is amazing imo. It's any unit with fly, not just flyers. It would be different if the -3 ap wasn't so frequently negated. This also only applies to single lascannons.
Help against hordes? You did the math even once, right?
You trying to tell people a lascannon is better against hordes now?
Martel732 wrote: I'll take any help vs hordes, and double flak missile from angry baby is amazing imo. It's any unit with fly, not just flyers. It would be different if the -3 ap wasn't so frequently negated. This also only applies to single lascannons.
Help against hordes? You did the math even once, right?
You trying to tell people a lascannon is better against hordes now?
Mathematically the damage is that insignificant because of how poor the Frag Missile round is. You'd actually want something dedicated, and a TAC weapon doesn't cut it.
First i am going to say i will be using dirty math hammer in my post. Its used to get my point across on las vs missile.
Slayer-Fan123 is right. A lascannon vs a Missile Launcher in almost all situations when only comparing those 2 weapons as the only options las wins. And dont get me wrong, i like my missile launchers, but here me out.
Vs horde a las cannon and a krak missile will do the same dmg.
4 shots, 3 hits, 3 wounds with ap-2/ap-3 which will cut through any horde armies armor = 3 dead guys. Horrible waste of firepower but it is what it is.
Now do 4 frag missiles. Thats on average 14 shots. Out of those 14, 10 will probably hit. Out of those 10, 5 will probably wound, but suddenly those horde guys get their saves so thats probably 1 save or 4 dead guys. 3 is less than 4, but vs a squad of 20 it doesn't matter as much.
Granted frag can be really swingy thanks to d6 shots. Roll hot and get 20 shots or cold and get 6.
Now lets look at the other side of this equation. Vehicles. Most have an armor of 3+, with some at the extreme 2+ and others at the weaker side of 4+. Toughness also is important since these heavy super units normally have t7 or t8.
Vs 3+ a las cannon has a 16% chance to be saved where the missile launcher is at 33%. Thats not insignificant. Vs 2+ thats a 33% for las and 50% for missile, again pretty important. Vs 4+ that las goes right though. So las helps more vs armor saves with no invulnerable.
In fact the only times the missile will only perform the same as a las cannon if the target has t7, and at least a 2+/4++ or 3+/5++. Of the unit has a better invulnerable than that and is t7 like say t7, 3+/4++ then the missile launcher is the better weapon. If its t8 then it does not matter, las is better. If its got no invulnerable las is better.
Of course there is the missile strat for flakk missile, it does come in handy when you remember it.
But by and large the las is still the superior weapon 9 times out of 10.
HOWEVER if you play a lot of lower toughness enemies in the game like crisis suits or raiders or starweavers then i can see the missiles launcher being the go to option. Its meta dependent on what the best option is. Myself i run a trip missile and heavy bolter team just for mortal wound threats and low points cost to performance as I am sure a lot of others do. Cant argue with 3d3 mortal wounds on a flying hive tyrant now can we?
My personal choice is missile as well because its cheaper. My meta has a lot of smaller knights and dreadnaughts running around in it as well as a tau and de player. They work for me. But i cant say the las isnt a better option normally. Dropping the missile down to 20 pts does help make it feel like a real choice now at least, at 25 it wasnt.
I did not expect chapter approved to improve space marines to the level where they can stand a decent chance against competitive soup lists.
But struggling so much against relatively tame mono-faction lists makes me think whether or not I should keep playing space marines.
Perhaps playing Ultramarines list with Guilliman might improve my win rate.
But then again, there are already plenty of mates utilising Guilliman around me.
And I find homogenisation of lists monotonous and unhealthy for gaming environment.
Furthermore, even the said Ultramarines lists are struggling against aforementioned non-Space Marine mono-faction lists.
For example an Aeldari player, an acquaintance of mine, had no problem defeating Guilliman list with Ulthwe list or harlequins list.
I will still play more games to assess the impact of chapter approved on space marines.
However I am afraid my initial impression might stay unchanged.
I ran Salamanders + a knight pre CA, and I run Salamanders + a knight post CA (I could drop the knight for 3 preds with ACs, much less survivable but much more damage). It hurt that tacs and rhinos didn't get an explicit boost but marines were, and still are workable. The first thing that people need to get out of their head is to stop running static gunlines. This edition is all about board control, having your forces sit in the back field while the enemy can just pick the flow of the . Have some mobile forces that can exert pressure. If your using marine bodies, get stuck in. Marines work best as a skirmish force, get close. Rapid fire bolters, use grenades, and muck up the enemy forces. The reason Guilleman seems lack luster is that everyone is prepped to fight Guilleman blobs and you can't move well enough.
I feel like a lot of marine players just try to take pound for pound shooting fights against other gunline armies, which they are going to lose. Or they just stand still and fire against horde armies and take a charge, which they will lose. Be proactive and make your opponent play your game. Marines are actually versatile and we pay for that versatility, so use it.
I haven't had a chance to run my new Post-CA list with the new Crimson Fists Chapter Tactic and the Liberator Strike Force. My group is only semi competitive, so I am sliding in a squad of Terminators and an Eversor Assassin. Might get a game in later in the week.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I haven't had a chance to run my new Post-CA list with the new Crimson Fists Chapter Tactic and the Liberator Strike Force. My group is only semi competitive, so I am sliding in a squad of Terminators and an Eversor Assassin. Might get a game in later in the week.
If you want an Eversor Assassin, I would recommend at least a second or third. They're definitely a unit that requires some redundancy if you want them to be focused on. For what it's worth, they're not the most fragile unit for their points and they definitely hit hard, but the most important factor they might contribute is stopping a unit from shooting for a turn.
Otherwise you might as well run Vanguard and get overall the same job done.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I haven't had a chance to run my new Post-CA list with the new Crimson Fists Chapter Tactic and the Liberator Strike Force. My group is only semi competitive, so I am sliding in a squad of Terminators and an Eversor Assassin. Might get a game in later in the week.
If you want an Eversor Assassin, I would recommend at least a second or third. They're definitely a unit that requires some redundancy if you want them to be focused on. For what it's worth, they're not the most fragile unit for their points and they definitely hit hard, but the most important factor they might contribute is stopping a unit from shooting for a turn.
Otherwise you might as well run Vanguard and get overall the same job done.
I lack the points to do that. I might run a Scout Squad with Sniper Rifles instead(I know, another crap unit).
casvalremdeikun wrote: I haven't had a chance to run my new Post-CA list with the new Crimson Fists Chapter Tactic and the Liberator Strike Force. My group is only semi competitive, so I am sliding in a squad of Terminators and an Eversor Assassin. Might get a game in later in the week.
If you want an Eversor Assassin, I would recommend at least a second or third. They're definitely a unit that requires some redundancy if you want them to be focused on. For what it's worth, they're not the most fragile unit for their points and they definitely hit hard, but the most important factor they might contribute is stopping a unit from shooting for a turn.
Otherwise you might as well run Vanguard and get overall the same job done.
I lack the points to do that. I might run a Scout Squad with Sniper Rifles instead(I know, another crap unit).
Sniper scouts can be made to work, and do so even cheaper now. If you give them enough support. Eg, you play ultramarines
casvalremdeikun wrote: I haven't had a chance to run my new Post-CA list with the new Crimson Fists Chapter Tactic and the Liberator Strike Force. My group is only semi competitive, so I am sliding in a squad of Terminators and an Eversor Assassin. Might get a game in later in the week.
If you want an Eversor Assassin, I would recommend at least a second or third. They're definitely a unit that requires some redundancy if you want them to be focused on. For what it's worth, they're not the most fragile unit for their points and they definitely hit hard, but the most important factor they might contribute is stopping a unit from shooting for a turn.
Otherwise you might as well run Vanguard and get overall the same job done.
I lack the points to do that. I might run a Scout Squad with Sniper Rifles instead(I know, another crap unit).
Sniper scouts can be made to work, and do so even cheaper now. If you give them enough support. Eg, you play ultramarines
I play Crimson Fists. So their Chapter Tactics don't synergize with Sniper Scouts unless I drop 1CP for Slay the Tyrant, but that only makes for more hits, not wounds.
I may look into what Slayer-Fan123 said and run a Vanguard of three Eversor Assassins somehow.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I haven't had a chance to run my new Post-CA list with the new Crimson Fists Chapter Tactic and the Liberator Strike Force. My group is only semi competitive, so I am sliding in a squad of Terminators and an Eversor Assassin. Might get a game in later in the week.
If you want an Eversor Assassin, I would recommend at least a second or third. They're definitely a unit that requires some redundancy if you want them to be focused on. For what it's worth, they're not the most fragile unit for their points and they definitely hit hard, but the most important factor they might contribute is stopping a unit from shooting for a turn.
Otherwise you might as well run Vanguard and get overall the same job done.
I lack the points to do that. I might run a Scout Squad with Sniper Rifles instead(I know, another crap unit).
Sniper scouts can be made to work, and do so even cheaper now. If you give them enough support. Eg, you play ultramarines
I play Crimson Fists. So their Chapter Tactics don't synergize with Sniper Scouts unless I drop 1CP for Slay the Tyrant, but that only makes for more hits, not wounds.
I may look into what Slayer-Fan123 said and run a Vanguard of three Eversor Assassins somehow.
I mean Sniper Scouts are a lot cheaper now, and the additional hits for Slay The Tyrant are kinda neat, but keep in mind that's a CP you're using. 10 Sniper Scouts would basically need first turn, and honestly it isn't a lot of damage anyway. Assuming a Lieutenant, that's maybe 2 Mortal Wounds with other damage. Might kill a Commander or Autarch but they gotta be in range.
I currently run a Deathwatch codex marine army and am building up my crimson fists Primaris force not sure if it's worth taking inceptors?? Currently take the odd I've in my kill teams for Deathwatch to allow them to fall back and fire but not thought about a whole unit.
Seems like they fill a gap in an all Primaris list for mobility as aggressive mobile troops aren't really there in a Primaris list.
Rogerio134134 wrote: I currently run a Deathwatch codex marine army and am building up my crimson fists Primaris force not sure if it's worth taking inceptors?? Currently take the odd I've in my kill teams for Deathwatch to allow them to fall back and fire but not thought about a whole unit.
Seems like they fill a gap in an all Primaris list for mobility as aggressive mobile troops aren't really there in a Primaris list.
In a primaris deathwatch squad they give a good push giving you the fall back and shoot, not bad also if they do not have SIA profile.
In normal SM army's they give you a good strike Dakka unit. They are the only Primaris unit I always use. But I am not speaking from a Tournament experience, only my local experience and what I saw on reports.
Inceptors rock for Crimson Fists. The dakka ones will almost always benefit from the new chapter tactic against their preferred targets, which gives you some good options like essentially being able to advance without penalty if you need the extra mobility.
I've found that even though the plasma inceptors are expensive, people have just stopped expecting anything similar to them. I've been catching people off guard with the drop-in firepower lately.
Plasma Inceptors with the Crimson Fists Chapter Tactics only need to be shooting into a unit of six to ignore any risks for over charging. I am not really sure what units would be worth doing that on, but blast away!
iGuy91 wrote: Now it says "Double the number of attacks"
Would a stormbolter in RF range be...8 shots?
Big if true
No, its just adding in extra ways to get the Rapid Fire double shots.
correct.
so
Scout bikes can harrass from longer range,
SM Bikes might be more useful
tac marines can sit on objectives as well as scouts
Termies can just storm up field and lay down all the dakka, or deepstrike in and shoot anything in range - a lot!
Primaris can use a stratagem to get 4 shot bolt rifles
Nevelon wrote: That might be a nice trick, but very CP hungry.
Depends on the rest of your list, but, I agree that you’d probably only ever “buff up” one unit, maybe 2 max. Making 2 squads Veterans and using the strat every turn, will cost you 8CP over 5 turns. Considering you’re likely to have at least 13CP with most “Marine” lists, maybe 14, you could still reliably do this… If the Intercessors aren’t wiped out first turn once your opponent sees what they can do
Centurions with hurricane and heavy bolters have have 30 shots each at half range.
Drop pod sternguard 40 shots on arrival, thats nasty with the strat.
Sternguard with storm bolters will get 40 shots if targeting an enemy within 12” yes, but, it won’t double up for units outside of the 12” due to them having “moved”.
Centurions will only get 18 shots each, max. 12 from the Hurricane Bolters and 6 from the Heavy Bolters. You don’t double up the rapid fire twice, it just means you always get to fire as if you’re within half range.
Nevelon wrote: That might be a nice trick, but very CP hungry.
Depends on the rest of your list, but, I agree that you’d probably only ever “buff up” one unit, maybe 2 max. Making 2 squads Veterans and using the strat every turn, will cost you 8CP over 5 turns. Considering you’re likely to have at least 13CP with most “Marine” lists, maybe 14, you could still reliably do this… If the Intercessors aren’t wiped out first turn once your opponent sees what they can do
Centurions with hurricane and heavy bolters have have 30 shots each at half range.
Drop pod sternguard 40 shots on arrival, thats nasty with the strat.
Sternguard with storm bolters will get 40 shots if targeting an enemy within 12” yes, but, it won’t double up for units outside of the 12” due to them having “moved”.
Centurions will only get 18 shots each, max. 12 from the Hurricane Bolters and 6 from the Heavy Bolters. You don’t double up the rapid fire twice, it just means you always get to fire as if you’re within half range.
Ah yes, i see now. Just a way to get your double shots under different circumstances.
Kdash wrote: . You don’t double up the rapid fire twice, it just means you always get to fire as if you’re within half range.
there is going to be a LOT of explaining this in the near future
Yes, but all you have to say if that Bolter Discipline REPLACES the normal RF rules, not adds to them. It'll be annoying to have to potentially correct a lot of people, but at least it should be a simple correction. The rules says "Instead of using the normal rules for RF weapons...."
This is still an awsome change that makes space marines better as a whole. I am thinking of my land raider crusader. 266 pts gets you 28 bolter shots at 24" +12" move for a 36" chaff clearing bubble. Thats awsome. Or 200 pts for 5 wolf guard with storm bolters and storm shields on bikes for 38" threat of 40 bolter shots. Or the terms that have been pointed out, just walking up the field unloading on people.
Hurricane bolters on ironclads also look a lot more attractive. I don't like how it encourages marine players to be more static, but it does look kind of tasty beyond that.
Vilehydra wrote: Hurricane bolters on ironclads also look a lot more attractive. I don't like how it encourages marine players to be more static, but it does look kind of tasty beyond that.
It doesn't exactly make them more static. Rather it compensates you somewhat if you are using units like Tactical squads as Objective campers. It also gives the bolter marines in Devastor squads a bit more to do while they wait to act as meat-shields for their heavy weapon brethren.
Bikers and Terminators are now more useful as they can act while moving at longer ranges. They can pump out maximum firepower without having to get within charge range of the enemy.
IanVanCheese wrote: It's a minor thing, but Storm Bolters now beat Fragstorm Launchers hands down right?
Absolutely. They'll always fire 4 shots up to 24" on every platform that needs to make that decision, which is higher than the average D6 from the shorter range fragstorm. And they're half the cost (for now).
I need a hand figuring out the best way to utilize 20 Sternguard. They're the best models in my army, and I'd love them to be useful again with the new BetaBolters. Any ideas? Drop pods worth it with the points drops? Or are Rhinos a better investment? Spread them out across 4 razorbacks?
iGuy91 wrote: I need a hand figuring out the best way to utilize 20 Sternguard. They're the best models in my army, and I'd love them to be useful again with the new BetaBolters. Any ideas? Drop pods worth it with the points drops? Or are Rhinos a better investment? Spread them out across 4 razorbacks?
I've had some good success dropping Sternguard's with Combi-Meltas near enemy lines from a Stormraven or Land Raider, accompanied by a Company Ancient with the relic banner and Vulkan Hestan.
Now that they can double-tap at range, giving them their Special Issue Bolter and camping an objective could also work. I'd rather keep them at range, where they can utilize their 30" SIB and special Stratagem.
I had luck with sternguard in drop pods. Last time i used them i dropped them in an open hole in my opponents back line, 20 of them, with a lieutenant w/ jump pack. Between weight of fire and the stratagem i killed a rune priest dead (had to go, that -1 to hit on redemptors in cover was a serious threat) and almost leveled logan (he went down to 2 wounds left, ended up running away and hiding from me until the threat was delt with... very space wolf like....) its one of my favorite tactics to use with them.
If you're game for running IFs, siegebreaker detachment would give your sternguard a) constant cover b) ignore -1ap weapon mods, so 2+ against assault cannons, heavy bolters and autocannons c) reroll 1s to wound from relic d) morale immunity, so you're free to run them in 2x10s and e) ignore cover, so your -2ap really does work. That's the way I'd go. They'd also become pretty nasty vehicle killers, combining the strenguard strat and the siegebreaker strat to put out 6 mortal wounds against a knight.
Siegebreaker cohort of centurions with bolter loadout could put some hurt downrange. 18 bolter shots (6 of which are HBs) per guy at 24 inches (with a mean 4 inch waddle) could be a serious threat to knights as well. Still though those centurions are expensive boys, but have good synergy with apothecaries and banner ancients.
I haven't done the math, but Devastator Centurions might actually be okay for the cost now assuming the beta rule stays, as they always have 12 shots no matter what from the Hurricane. Still not durable though.
That makes me lean towards the Assault variant still to be honest. If I want more Heavy Bolters, I still have the lovely Tarantula Guns to do that.
I think Sternguard win, vs Centurions, with the strat because they double the likelihood of mortal wound: 5+ instead of 6+. Plus less "please kill me really quickly and easily" as a unit. Plus no morale issue which makes 10-man units great. Plus 30" range is a big improvement.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I haven't done the math, but Devastator Centurions might actually be okay for the cost now assuming the beta rule stays, as they always have 12 shots no matter what from the Hurricane. Still not durable though.
That makes me lean towards the Assault variant still to be honest. If I want more Heavy Bolters, I still have the lovely Tarantula Guns to do that.
Yeah, the Assault Variants are actually looking pretty enticing. The Centurion Assault Launchers are definitely getting left at home though. The Devastor Centurions are actually CHEAPER now, which kind of helps. So unless you are charging with them (on what, turn three?), the Devastators might be the better option.
grouchoben wrote: I think Sternguard win, vs Centurions, with the strat because they double the likelihood of mortal wound: 5+ instead of 6+. Plus less "please kill me really quickly and easily" as a unit. Plus no morale issue which makes 10-man units great. Plus 30" range is a big improvement.
The siegebreaker cohort stratagem only works on siegebreaker cohort units which the sternguard are not. Are you talking about another strat that I am missing?
grouchoben wrote: I think Sternguard win, vs Centurions, with the strat because they double the likelihood of mortal wound: 5+ instead of 6+. Plus less "please kill me really quickly and easily" as a unit. Plus no morale issue which makes 10-man units great. Plus 30" range is a big improvement.
The siegebreaker cohort stratagem only works on siegebreaker cohort units which the sternguard are not. Are you talking about another strat that I am missing?
My mistake, thanks Tibs. Thought that was too good to be true.
neat trick with sternguard is to have a captain with storm of fire near them.
Slap on the +1 to wound strat and and wounds of a 5 or 6 are at -3 and ofc you get the re-roll 1's to hit.
With the new bolter thing although it stops you using their cool strat you could go mad and give them all storm bolters instead. They come in at the same pts cost
40 storm bolter shots kills as many marine on the nose as 20 special issue rounds
However the storms kill 11 orks vs 6/7 for the SI bolters
Against a rhino they are both about 3 wounds.
Again you loose the strat and some range but storm bolters might be fun
Latro_ wrote: neat trick with sternguard is to have a captain with storm of fire near them.
Slap on the +1 to wound strat and and wounds of a 5 or 6 are at -3 and ofc you get the re-roll 1's to hit.
With the new bolter thing although it stops you using their cool strat you could go mad and give them all storm bolters instead. They come in at the same pts cost
40 storm bolter shots kills as many marine on the nose as 20 special issue rounds
However the storms kill 11 orks vs 6/7 for the SI bolters
Against a rhino they are both about 3 wounds.
Again you loose the strat and some range but storm bolters might be fun
Unless you want max 10 marine sized units, I think company vets are better for rocking storm bolters. Can also take storm shields or a melee weapon.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
grouchoben wrote: IMO they were always better, point-for-point, than fragstorm.
That's true, but every list can survive small points of inefficiency for rule of cool or personal preference.
If you were going to go with a dreadnought heavy list what faction would you take? I currently own 3 regular dreads, 3 venerable dreads, and 2 ironclad dreadnoughts.
Latro_ wrote: neat trick with sternguard is to have a captain with storm of fire near them.
Slap on the +1 to wound strat and and wounds of a 5 or 6 are at -3 and ofc you get the re-roll 1's to hit.
With the new bolter thing although it stops you using their cool strat you could go mad and give them all storm bolters instead. They come in at the same pts cost
40 storm bolter shots kills as many marine on the nose as 20 special issue rounds
However the storms kill 11 orks vs 6/7 for the SI bolters
Against a rhino they are both about 3 wounds.
Again you loose the strat and some range but storm bolters might be fun
Unless you want max 10 marine sized units, I think company vets are better for rocking storm bolters. Can also take storm shields or a melee weapon.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
grouchoben wrote: IMO they were always better, point-for-point, than fragstorm.
That's true, but every list can survive small points of inefficiency for rule of cool or personal preference.
The inefficiency just became much bigger now.
I dunno, for Rule Of Cool, six Bolters at once seems a lot cooler than Fragstorm Launchers in the first place.
With that said I'm sure there's a niche somewhere. Either that, or 12 shots all the time is better than a mortal wound against a Knight too.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Azuza001 wrote: If you were going to go with a dreadnought heavy list what faction would you take? I currently own 3 regular dreads, 3 venerable dreads, and 2 ironclad dreadnoughts.
Raven Guard as all purpose, or Ultramarines if you're shooting. I might even lean towards Ultramarines because getting stuck in by just a couple of Gaunts can be a realistic scenario.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Black Templars if just pure melee, of course. The Wulfen Dread that Space Wolves would likely be a better choice though.
Yeah i was thinking ravenguard too. I dont want to do spacewolves because they dont get access to ironclad dreads which i really like. Salamanders seemed like an option for all those rerolls though.
I normally run my marines as Deathwatch but tempted to try the indomitus crusaders detachment with my crimson fists. Already going to order a sterguard box and use the bits to make veteran intercessors/counts as stern guard.
Hey, so I mostly play guard, but I've got some old Dev centurions gathering dust that I'd love to breathe new life into with the Siegebreaker Cohort.
I'm thinking either a patrol or vanguard to take as allies:
Primaris Capt. W/eye of Hypnoth and the SBC trait
Apothecary
Ancient
6 Bolter Dev Cents
But now the question is how to round out the detachment? A troop for a cheap(er) patrol, another elite for a vanguard (dread?), or go big and do a spearhead with Leviathan dread and devastators? What would an optimal Siegebreaker cohort tend towards, not as a complete army, but as a midfield, hard-hitting anchor?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You probably want at minimum a Vanguard to get an extra CP.
That's preferable, I agree, thank you! Vanguard or spearhead, but considering there's already 2 elites, vanguard is cheaper. I have a Ven Dread, would a relic contemptor or Deredeo be better/worth the additional points and $?
I know "Smash Captains" are still the hot thing to do... but all the other options got way cheaper. A captain on bike is now cheaper than a jump pack captain. Cataphractii captains are 42 points cheaper than they were, obviously they're slow but 6 wounds under a natural 2+ 3++ is pretty nice. Personally i was thinking of having a Captain on bike with combi-melta and powerfist with the Sanctic halo relic.
How do you typically soup in captains from other chapters? In a patrol detachment?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Deredeos are like a worse but cheaper Leviathan. It isn't bad, but sometimes you just want to go all in.
Considering that the Deredeo got a 15pt cut and has a str8 autocannon instead of str7, I’m thinking they’re now one of the best shooty dread options if the relic slot is no issue. I still like the Leviathan too, but I liked the idea of it a lot more when hordes were in and not when everyone expects a Knight.
footfoe wrote: Can we talk about alternative captain load outs?
I know "Smash Captains" are still the hot thing to do... but all the other options got way cheaper. A captain on bike is now cheaper than a jump pack captain. Cataphractii captains are 42 points cheaper than they were, obviously they're slow but 6 wounds under a natural 2+ 3++ is pretty nice. Personally i was thinking of having a Captain on bike with combi-melta and powerfist with the Sanctic halo relic.
How do you typically soup in captains from other chapters? In a patrol detachment?
Been running one with Standard Terminator armor with a TH and the Shield Eternal or Salamanders Mantle. Halving damage on a 2+/3++ model with 6 wounds is incredibly durable, as in he survived a full salvo from a porphyrion. Give him the imperiums sword warlord trait for an increased chance at making that first charge and an additional attack.
It's important to note that this captain requires the enemy to be pressured, otherwise they can just walk away from him if he fails his charge. For more fun, get a librarian nearby with might of heroes. 6 str 10 thunderhammer attacks on the charge that can be doubled for 3 CP.
That leaves 11cps after paying for the extra relic and the 2 for Indomitus. I went RG out of habit, though with no more sneaking and not using Shrike, I dunno.
Flood wrote: Go Ultramarines so your dreads can fall back and still shoot, otherwise they get locked down pretty easily.
Yeah, that's probably better. I'll miss the -1 to hit since most of the marines have better than 12" range, but a few units being locked down in cc would wreck too much of my firepower.
If I'm doing that I might as well find 14 pts and go Tigurius too.
edit: I'll change the Deredeo for a Venerable, upgrade to Tigurius, and 3 mortars. I still think the Deredeo is better point for point than a Venerable, more wounds, same shooting. But it's close enough and gets me the points I needed.
edit2: That UM strat to let a tactical/intercessor squad reroll all to hit rolls goes nicely with the Indomitus double shot. Well, at least when not using BobbyG to get the reroll for free Since talking UM, I've got what I'm positive is a stronger list around all infantry and Guilliman, but then I have to buy more stuff, including Guilliman and then I can't use any of my dreads.
Deredeos are one of the key units for SM, I won't hear a bad word said against them!
The meta is dominated by flyers now - Eldar, Deldar, Harly bikes & Tau, and the Deredeo's Anvillus is the perfect statline to deal with these armies.
Add on top its BS2+ and its +1 to hit flyers and even a flyer with -2 to hit is getting popped on a 3+. They also have 14 wounds and barebones only cost 187pts. Bargain!
Crimson_ wrote: I'm thinking of adding one Deredeo to my Ultras. Autocannon battery and Atomantic Pavaise would be my idea to shield the Hellblasters.
For hellblasters, consider using cover. Against anything -3 or lower a 3+ in cover is equivalent or better than a 5++. Its free, but not always available. The Deredeo is still pretty good, but the atomantic pavaise might not be worth it if you play on tables with decent cover.
I was also thinking that if the deredeo is one of the better units we have to begin with, it’s more likely to get shot first anyways, so the shield won’t actually do much and is just paying 30pts to make the target sign on its chest bigger.
Just reading the codex as you do to seek out gems but finding trash. Can anyone explain why you'd bother with scout bikers over normal bikers now the cost the same pts cost!!!
Scouts put out an good amount of bolter rounds, complimented by their shotguns at 12" or less. They also have their Cluster Mine stratagem and move 2" more than the regular bikes.
Regular bikes can take a couple of special weapons and have better armour.
Really depends what you want them to do, but I'd rather have the faster guys that have more shots against weak infantry sitting on objectives.
Latro_ wrote: Just reading the codex as you do to seek out gems but finding trash. Can anyone explain why you'd bother with scout bikers over normal bikers now the cost the same pts cost!!!
Crimson_ wrote: I'm thinking of adding one Deredeo to my Ultras. Autocannon battery and Atomantic Pavaise would be my idea to shield the Hellblasters.
For hellblasters, consider using cover. Against anything -3 or lower a 3+ in cover is equivalent or better than a 5++. Its free, but not always available. The Deredeo is still pretty good, but the atomantic pavaise might not be worth it if you play on tables with decent cover.
I agree, that is preferable but not always possible. Especially if you try to get 5+ Hellblasters in cover and have a Captain, Lieutenant and Ancient nearby.
If I read the rules correctly, the Atomantic Pavaise works as well on vehicles even if only partially wihthin 6"?
Page 29 – Relic Deredeo Dreadnought,
Atomantic Pavaise
Change the first sentence of this ability to read:
‘If equipped with an atomantic pavaise, all friendly
<Chapter> units that are wholly within 6" of the Relic
Deredeo Dreadnought gain a 5+ invulnerable save.’
Martel732 wrote: He rerolls a die roll per turn, has a better weapon, and lets BA explode 6s in CC.
Not sure how handy that reroll would be for him as he's already gonna die. I'd think that a generic Sanguine Priest with the Veritas would be a little better. Not like you'll have a lot of Strategems you want to use for your own army, but still.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: It still works out for smaller units that wanna camp (Thunderfires say hi) but it's less appealing than before.
I can still fit 2 sicarans just within 6 of the Deredeo they do love some 5++ action, predators etc easily fit. Landraider and up don't but they gain so little from a 5++ anyway. The other option is normal dreadnaughts.
Also if your ultramarines tig can add a -1 to the Deredeo for extra annoying factor. It's not meta breaking but it can annoy your opponent enough.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: It still works out for smaller units that wanna camp (Thunderfires say hi) but it's less appealing than before.
I can still fit 2 sicarans just within 6 of the Deredeo they do love some 5++ action, predators etc easily fit. Landraider and up don't but they gain so little from a 5++ anyway. The other option is normal dreadnaughts.
Also if your ultramarines tig can add a -1 to the Deredeo for extra annoying factor. It's not meta breaking but it can annoy your opponent enough.
I know for my Ven Dreads I'm using a Deathwatch Captain with the Dominus Aegis and it's kinda successful.
But isn’t an important difference that the DW captain can’t be targeted while a deredeo not only can be targeted, but is one of your better shooters and a prime early kill target anyways? You need something they will attack with a 5++ over just attacking the deredeo itself.
bort wrote: But isn’t an important difference that the DW captain can’t be targeted while a deredeo not only can be targeted, but is one of your better shooters and a prime early kill target anyways? You need something they will attack with a 5++ over just attacking the deredeo itself.
It's maybe a little gamey but my deredeo is rocking touching cover, a 5++, and -1 to hit and is usually surrounded by 2 sicarans and a ven dread infront of him so not a great primary target, it's up there but sicarans are a different level to predators in resilient. I wish they were T8 but it is what it is.
bort wrote: But isn’t an important difference that the DW captain can’t be targeted while a deredeo not only can be targeted, but is one of your better shooters and a prime early kill target anyways? You need something they will attack with a 5++ over just attacking the deredeo itself.
That's a risk you'll have to take. You either go with Raven Guard for the additional durability or Ultramarines to avoid being tarpitted.
just looking at old models, its such a shame i never use my speeders anymore.
Has anyone even bothered with them in 8th, even with CA pts drop dual HB one for 70pts seems a waste of time even if they could move and fire at full bs!
another crazy idea i'm having is 10 termies a termie captain with TH/SS and a libby
jump in veil of time them into something maybe on the captain with RG trait for no OW and 40 bolter shots at something... again its like pushing 600pts such a shame and a gimick. might do it in a game for the funs
Latro_ wrote: just looking at old models, its such a shame i never use my speeders anymore.
Has anyone even bothered with them in 8th, even with CA pts drop dual HB one for 70pts seems a waste of time even if they could move and fire at full bs!
another crazy idea i'm having is 10 termies a termie captain with TH/SS and a libby
jump in veil of time them into something maybe on the captain with RG trait for no OW and 40 bolter shots at something... again its like pushing 600pts such a shame and a gimick. might do it in a game for the funs
I can't really see a good use for speeders either, as much as I want to like them. They're so fragile, it's hard to get them into cover, and if you want to take advantage of their movement for shooting purposes their damage output suffers greatly. There's the potentially useful 20" move and then assault for major disruption, but it doesn't seem worth it.
If I could deep strike them I'd consider them more. Or if I could get the Index datasheet for the CA price and have twin Heavy Flamers, I might consider that too.
I cant believe speeders don't still have deep strike. Especially now that they get that -1 for firing when they used to be so fast and shooty. Seems weird that for the same price can get a Rhino with 2 storm bolters and have fairly close shooting and way more utility or 2 attack bikes for more shots and closer towards a brigade.
Speaking of attack bikes, they still aren't great, but they've totally killed the heavy bolter tarantula as the cheapo FA slot, right? Same cost, way more mobile, bit easier to kill...Any downside that I missed?
bort wrote: I cant believe speeders don't still have deep strike. Especially now that they get that -1 for firing when they used to be so fast and shooty. Seems weird that for the same price can get a Rhino with 2 storm bolters and have fairly close shooting and way more utility or 2 attack bikes for more shots and closer towards a brigade.
Speaking of attack bikes, they still aren't great, but they've totally killed the heavy bolter tarantula as the cheapo FA slot, right? Same cost, way more mobile, bit easier to kill...Any downside that I missed?
No they're awesome. I'm definitely going to get two more for the potential brigade. The only downside I can think of is that cover is hard to get, but oh well.
Slayer made me try out tarantulas actually, he's a big fan. They are great for screening out space, as anything that makes it into CC with them a) still gets shot by them and b) can still be targetted by the rest of your army. Solid defensive unit
Yeah, that’s why I was asking. I had forgotten about the no cc locking part, that is nice for a screen. But now that the attack bike is the same price you could use the bike to screen instead and move it later if it survives.
The bike has the same -1 as the speeder on the HB, but better base BS than the turret and gets the free twin bolter.
bort wrote: Yeah, that’s why I was asking. I had forgotten about the no cc locking part, that is nice for a screen. But now that the attack bike is the same price you could use the bike to screen instead and move it later if it survives.
The bike has the same -1 as the speeder on the HB, but better base BS than the turret and gets the free twin bolter.
The closer that Attack Bike moves, the more it can be hit by weapons efficient against it. If you want something like that, the aforementioned Land Speeders have double the wounds and double the Heavy Bolter shots for less than double the price of Attack Bikes.
Don't forget that it's a TL Heavy Bolter on the Tarantula, not just a regular one. That's 6 shots at BS4+, compared to needing to move in for you to use the TL Bolter (and consequently making your Heavy Bolter fire at that BS4+). If you're using a camping HQ, this is even better for a potential gunline too if you're strictly screening at the front rather than a few key places in your back lines.
I don’t think the range is much issue with the bolter beta rule, it’ll get 4 bs3 shots at 24”. Not any more issue than the turret having to shoot the closest, anyways.
But okay, fair enough, I guess the attack bike isn’t a 100% replacement for the tarantula now.
I would probably still use 2 attack bikes over the speeder though (if I had to use either). 2 HB bikes is only 74pts, that’s barely over double the 70pt speeder.
how about 6 heavy bolter devi centurions with girlyman and maybe tiggy nearby for the -1 to hit
36 heavy bolter shots
72 bolter shots
re-roll to hit and wound
ignore cover
its a fair whack of pts (like the cents are 420) but sounds scary?
issue is they only 18 T5 2+ wounds at -1 to hit
15 wounds to a knight
2 dead rhinos
68 dead orks
61 dead guardsmen
30 dead marines
other option:
run em as Imperial fists with a chapter master near with storm of fire + re-roll ones relic
re-roll all shots
and 6's to wound are -2 or -1 and against vehicles cause a mortal wound with the vigilus 1cp strat
thats pain to knights
not to mention you can spank another cp on bolter drill for more shots on a 6 to hit!
Nevelon wrote: Another thing in the attack bike’s favor is chapter tactics. Also apothecaries and other things that don’t work on vehicles.
And how many of those Chapter Tactics honestly matter?
I’m not saying they are game brakeingly powerful, but they are there.
UM: Ld pretty useless, fall back and shoot situationally useful, but the full FLY on the speeder trumps it. Not relevant
WS: Charge and fallback can let you shoot and pin things in CC. Not bad for a harassment unit
IF: No cover is kinda nice
BT: re-roll charges can help you tie up something in CC. Not spectacular, but a thing.
Sal: Might make MM bikes slightly more viable. re-rolls are nice if mucking about the backfield out of aura range
RG: -1 to hit very nice. With the beta bolter rule you can skirt around in the 18-24” bracket and be outside of effective range of your foes while still shooting at max. Clear winner (shock)
IH: 6+++ makes you tougher.
WS, UM, BT have stratagems that work with bikes, IH for vehicles.
The Crimson Fist one gives you bonuses when outnumbered, correct? I don’t have the WD with it. Not bad for bikes which normally are.
Are they enough to tip the balance over other units? Maybe not. But they are little situational bonuses that can be nice, or mesh well in corner cases.
Imperial Fists have viable Centurions now. a 4-man squad with grav, cap rerolls and relic rerolls on wounds with the siege strat will do a dirty amount of damage to a rotated knight.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The question is, how to keep em alive? I've been trying a few things - even an imperial bastion!
Which units would you recommend for vulkan hestan's re-roll buffs with flamer and melta weapons?
I thought about sternguard with combi flamers or a unit of Devs with multi meltas.
I dare say there are better options but I'm new to marines so I thought I'd turn to dakka for advice.
flamer agressors are an obvious choice but even with his ability they are prob better off with bolters but might be fun if you can get them there.
maybe 2 units of 5 devis with multi meltas, i'd try it for fun.
3 MM + HF dreads might be interesting. Mortis and mortis contemptor dreads from FW you can have dual MM
Relic leviathan dread from FW has 2 meltaguns and heavy flamers standard you can swap of BOTH meltas for:
Cyclonic melta lances 18" Heavy 2D3 9 -4 D6 (half range metal rule)
here is one someone did, worth doing for cool factor:
https://i.redd.it/fh2yp83r6lk11.jpg quite expensive thou over 300pts
Its a shame the demios pred from FW's flamer gun is infernus not flamer worded that would be pretty fun to use with two side heavy flamers.
kingheff wrote: Which units would you recommend for vulkan hestan's re-roll buffs with flamer and melta weapons?
I thought about sternguard with combi flamers or a unit of Devs with multi meltas.
I dare say there are better options but I'm new to marines so I thought I'd turn to dakka for advice.
What are your army plans in general, and how competitive do you play?
Both Melta and Flamers are in a bad place right now. Melta is overpriced for what it does, and flamers don’t really do the job they were designed for (thinning hordes). Now giving them full re-rolls will go a long way, but you need to recognize that you are starting a bit behind.
How are you going to get your guns into range? What style list?
The LRR has got those nice cannons on the side for the burning, and you can pop a MM up top. Might not be the most efficient thing, but thematic and cool, and makes a nice centerpiece for a mechanized list. It does suffer from having to be close to shoot, and being able to be stuck in CC. But if you are being locked in combat, you probably got a chance to roast them with the flamesotrms on the way in.
Dreads can work. Bikes, sternguard. Even loaded tac squads
Whatever you pick is not going to boost you to the top tables. As combos go, it’s hardly game breaking. Vulcan lets you take bad options, and make them playable. So take stuff you enjoy.
I mostly play at my local gw store and if I was going to try more competitive games I'd probably stick with my craftworlds army.
So I want a mix of fluffy and decent options for my salamander army. I've got a decent selection of tacs, Devs and primaris with venerable dreads so far. I've bought a deredeo with auto cannons to go with my dreads The dreads I've armed with plasma and twin auto cannons, besides the basic salamander re-roll ability would cover any multi meltas on dreads if I decide to swap them in. I'll probably try to stick to mechanised infantry and dreads as much as possible.
A squad of ten sternguard with combi flamers and the flamecraft strat would get 20 rapid fire bolter shots, hitting on fours but re-rolling ones, plus 10 d6 flamer hits which get a plus one to wound, re-rolling with Vulcan. Fifty plus shots seems a decent amount of dakka with the caveat that they die pretty easily so I'm guessing a rhino would be pretty essential.
Venerable dreads are ace, I run 2 in my Deathwatch army and last night I got 2 lascannon hits through and caused 11 wounds blowing it's dirty fish head off! Sit them in cover at the back and they just throw out 2 Krak and 4 LC shots perturn for 280 points hitting on 2s and with a 6 up FNP save.
I've been reviving my IF army which have been a real blast, but suffer from static gunline syndrome. Aside from scouts (already run 3 basic squads) what options are worth talking about here?
Is it vanvets & inceptors or bust? Has anyone tried the Termite? It looks solid but is hampered by its restriction to basic troops only, which in turn points towards stormshield vets as its payload...
I am trying to build a casual, fluffy list based around the 'Sky Sentinels' chapter. They are mentioned in a throwaway sentence in the lore has having been wiped out by Magnus, but I thought it would be cool if some of their absent ships got lost in the warp and survived. They are pretty much a blank slate, so all I really have to go on is their name.
I figure their main thing is that they really like flyers, but this doesn't seem to fit with any of the existing chapters for me to decide their progenitor. Blood Angels like flying but I am trying to stick to the standard chapters. Raven Guard use a lot of flyers, but mostly as a means to drop them behind enemy lines to conduct stealth operations. I figure that being stealthy conflicts with the 'Sentinels' part. Imperial Fists would make good sentinels and I do like their chapter tactics. Am I missing anything though? Is there another chapter that would make more sense lore-wise for flying guardian types?
In terms of tactics, is there any way to make a flyer-heavy Space Marine list work? I have a Stormraven and two Stormtalons and I had hoped to cram them all in as an Air Wing detachment, but it seems like flyers are kind of bad since I am not aware of them being used much. I had been planning to mostly just fill out the army using tactical marines, but would any else work as a better compliment to flyers? I like the idea of missile launchers since they provide some flexibility but most people seem to prefer lascannons spam? I know there is no point in everything being super-optimised for casual play but I want them to have some sort of fighting chance
I would prefer not to include any Primaris since everyone thought these guys were dead, so no one trusts them and they get minimal resources from the Imperium. I figure that any Primaris they were originally grown for them were quietly shunted off to other chapters
Bilge Rat wrote: I am trying to build a casual, fluffy list based around the 'Sky Sentinels' chapter. They are mentioned in a throwaway sentence in the lore has having been wiped out by Magnus, but I thought it would be cool if some of their absent ships got lost in the warp and survived. They are pretty much a blank slate, so all I really have to go on is their name.
I figure their main thing is that they really like flyers, but this doesn't seem to fit with any of the existing chapters for me to decide their progenitor. Blood Angels like flying but I am trying to stick to the standard chapters. Raven Guard use a lot of flyers, but mostly as a means to drop them behind enemy lines to conduct stealth operations. I figure that being stealthy conflicts with the 'Sentinels' part. Imperial Fists would make good sentinels and I do like their chapter tactics. Am I missing anything though? Is there another chapter that would make more sense lore-wise for flying guardian types?
In terms of tactics, is there any way to make a flyer-heavy Space Marine list work? I have a Stormraven and two Stormtalons and I had hoped to cram them all in as an Air Wing detachment, but it seems like flyers are kind of bad since I am not aware of them being used much. I had been planning to mostly just fill out the army using tactical marines, but would any else work as a better compliment to flyers? I like the idea of missile launchers since they provide some flexibility but most people seem to prefer lascannons spam? I know there is no point in everything being super-optimised for casual play but I want them to have some sort of fighting chance
I would prefer not to include any Primaris since everyone thought these guys were dead, so no one trusts them and they get minimal resources from the Imperium. I figure that any Primaris they were originally grown for them were quietly shunted off to other chapters
You could always go with “unknown” for your primogenitor. White Scars also nicely fits the bill, as mobility and hit and run are part of their style. From a table-top POV, look at how you want to put the army together and see what fits best.
Flyers don’t count when seeing if you are tabled, so you don’t want to go all-in on them. StormRavens used to be hot, and still aren’t bad. Some of the FW flyers are nice if you want to go that way. For casual play I think any the SM flyers are not bad. Most top tier lists take the broken stuff with synergies and spam it, so you won’t see 90% of the codex. Doesn’t mean it’s bad for normal play, just not the latest hotness.
The question is what else do you want in your list? Thematically I’d suggest a lot of speeders and jump troops. Mechanically, you probably want some rugged stuff to put boots on objectives and make sure you don’t get tabled. There is also the question of troops and how to get them on the table.
Scouts can fit in well in a list like this. Fluff wise they have infiltrated the battlefield and are calling in the air strike. Mechanically, they fill troop slots, offer table presence, and camp objectives.
You probably want to find some sort of hammer units to cram into your SR. Turn one fly up close, turn two hop out and kill. Don’t forget the dread. Plasma vets, some HQs, whatever floats your boat.
Handing out primaris to wrecked chapters was kinda a thing if you want to include them. If you are looking for fluff justification not to, that’s fine as well. But a repulsor full of hellblasters and some inceptors would fit your theme pretty well.
Lore-wise it makes sense for my guys to have an unknown primogenitor but I want proper Chapter Tactic bonuses
I think that assault squads make a lot of sense. I currently have ten assault marines plus a jump pack chaplain so they should team up pretty well. I'm not sure about land speeders or scouts though since I feel like 'sentinels' would favour resilience over speed.
A repulsor full of hellblasters sounds like fun but my lore is that these guys were secretive almost to the point of heresy, so now the Imperial bureaucrats would prefer to see them get wiped out for good rather than trusting them with a load of fancy new toys. I do have a single intercessor model that I picked up for free at my local GW so I considered converting him into a lieutenant to represent an Ultramarine who has been assigned to keep an eye on them
As for FW flyers, I would love a £450 Thunderhawk but it isn't the most practical choice
Lore-wise it makes sense for my guys to have an unknown primogenitor but I want proper Chapter Tactic bonuses
There's nothing stopping you from "your dudes"-ing things up to the max, but rules-wise running them as a vanilla Chapter with regards to Chapter Tactics.
So now that the Bolter rule has been out for a while and I keep bringing this up, I think it's time we discussed Sternguard again as part of a Lias drop + an Ancient with the relic Banner.
With Sternguard having a high enough LD stat and ATSKNF, we don't care much about morale for them. We can easily get large squads for them and let them rain fire, and I know I had at least mediocre success doing this even with all the new codices being released. The main issue is of course two fold:
1. The range of the Special Issue Bolters still doesn't outweigh the firepower of the Storm Bolter in most cases. However, with people not trying to get too close to Storm Bolters with this rule out, can we make an argument for using the default weapon?
2. While Raptors are TECHNICALLY Raven Guard successors, you aren't actually forced into using them RAW. It can be gamey, but how do we feel about using maybe Ultramarines (no tarpitting) or Imperial Fists (ignoring cover with either Bolt weapon is good)?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: So now that the Bolter rule has been out for a while and I keep bringing this up, I think it's time we discussed Sternguard again as part of a Lias drop + an Ancient with the relic Banner.
Not quite sure how those are connected. Lias drop counts as moving, so you wouldn't get beta bolter rule anyway on the drop.
I also wouldn't worry about Raptors being 'gamey' - they're already that way by virtue of having a Chapter Master Character that has never had a model ;P
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: So now that the Bolter rule has been out for a while and I keep bringing this up, I think it's time we discussed Sternguard again as part of a Lias drop + an Ancient with the relic Banner.
Not quite sure how those are connected. Lias drop counts as moving, so you wouldn't get beta bolter rule anyway on the drop.
I also wouldn't worry about Raptors being 'gamey' - they're already that way by virtue of having a Chapter Master Character that has never had a model ;P
It counts as moving, but I'm looking at Lias as essentially a Drop Pod that's gonna give rerolls to dudes when they drop. Then the opponent dedicates effort to remove them (helped by the Raven Guard -1 usually), and whatever is left standing is able to keep plucking away with the benefit of the Ancient on standby.
At 15" you're gonna be in rapid fire when you drop anyway, so that shouldn't a be a concern. I think bolter drill really matters more for sternguard outside of a lias drop. At 30" they outrange any other infantry except for fire warriors, and with two shots at 30" and the recent point drop they might be worth taking.
Assuming I was going to run a squad of Termies, do I give the one dude the assault cannon or missile launcher? Or do I not actually bother with a heavy weapon?
Might as well go Cyclone. The single Assault Cannon isn't a good buy at 22 points. They need to be TL to get any value as usually it's a greater density of shots.
After all, how many units have access to a single Assault Cannon as an option compared to the TL option, and how expensive do these units get?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: At 15" you're gonna be in rapid fire when you drop anyway, so that shouldn't a be a concern. I think bolter drill really matters more for sternguard outside of a lias drop. At 30" they outrange any other infantry except for fire warriors, and with two shots at 30" and the recent point drop they might be worth taking.
The second turn afterwards you might need to plink at something further away.
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