Any tips on beating Necrons? Playing 2k points, was against 3x Catacomb Barges, 3x full Destroyer squads, 3x5 Immortals with Destroyer Lord and some other things I forget. I was playing with LRC, 2 squads of Terminators (one regular, one Assault), a Redemptor Dread, Helbrecht, Emp Champ, Captain, 2x Lt, 3x5 Crusaders (3x Plasmagun, 2x LC, 1x HB), 3x 5-man Scouts with bolters. I'm considering some Assbacks for a high ROF vs. the Barges shielding. And yeah I know Terminators are suboptimal I just love them and the LRC. It may have just been that he was rolling super hot on Barge shots
Aleister_Dakka wrote: Any tips on beating Necrons? Playing 2k points, was against 3x Catacomb Barges, 3x full Destroyer squads, 3x5 Immortals with Destroyer Lord and some other things I forget. I was playing with LRC, 2 squads of Terminators (one regular, one Assault), a Redemptor Dread, Helbrecht, Emp Champ, Captain, 2x Lt, 3x5 Crusaders (3x Plasmagun, 2x LC, 1x HB), 3x 5-man Scouts with bolters. I'm considering some Assbacks for a high ROF vs. the Barges shielding. And yeah I know Terminators are suboptimal I just love them and the LRC. It may have just been that he was rolling super hot on Barge shots
It sounds like a pretty fluffy and classic BT list to me! No need to change! Your opponent also plays quite a nice list, but not too overpowered as far as I can tell. I'd advice to try proxying the Redemptor as a Contemptor. I have done this in a few games as I can't stand the extreme weak performance of the Redemptor. The Contemptor, for less points, gets +2', BS/WS 2+, and a 5++, just for some shooting (on 4+ when you move) and 3W that are compensated with a nice invun imo. I removed the missile pod and played the plasma as a melta. I really hate to see my beautifully painted Dreadnought gets annihilated by a few Lasscannon shots from cheap IG units. Keep the list going, and definetly keep the termies rocking!
Cheers
jcd386 wrote: So, looking at the knight codex...they seem really powerful.
What are you guys looking at in your lists to deal with 3+ knights and still hope to be fairly take all comers (as much as codex SM can)?
My plan will be to kill their CP battery Troops (if any) and then play objectives, hiding my guys out of LOS as much as possible. Haven't tested it yet, but going to a tourney this weekend with possibly 3 IK players.
jcd386 wrote: So, looking at the knight codex...they seem really powerful.
What are you guys looking at in your lists to deal with 3+ knights and still hope to be fairly take all comers (as much as codex SM can)?
My plan will be to kill their CP battery Troops (if any) and then play objectives, hiding my guys out of LOS as much as possible. Haven't tested it yet, but going to a tourney this weekend with possibly 3 IK players.
Unless they are doing London GT insulation terrain you aint blooking line of sight to a knight with 12 move also they do have some nlos weapons fyi
jcd386 wrote: So, looking at the knight codex...they seem really powerful.
What are you guys looking at in your lists to deal with 3+ knights and still hope to be fairly take all comers (as much as codex SM can)?
My plan will be to kill their CP battery Troops (if any) and then play objectives, hiding my guys out of LOS as much as possible. Haven't tested it yet, but going to a tourney this weekend with possibly 3 IK players.
Unless they are doing London GT insulation terrain you aint blooking line of sight to a knight with 12 move also they do have some nlos weapons fyi
Using ITC rules where first level of ruins blocks LOS, seems pretty doable I think. My first tourney though, so we'll see.
jcd386 wrote: So, looking at the knight codex...they seem really powerful.
What are you guys looking at in your lists to deal with 3+ knights and still hope to be fairly take all comers (as much as codex SM can)?
My plan will be to kill their CP battery Troops (if any) and then play objectives, hiding my guys out of LOS as much as possible. Haven't tested it yet, but going to a tourney this weekend with possibly 3 IK players.
Unless they are doing London GT insulation terrain you aint blooking line of sight to a knight with 12 move also they do have some nlos weapons fyi
Using ITC rules where first level of ruins blocks LOS, seems pretty doable I think. My first tourney though, so we'll see.
Currently building some knights to fight with my ultramarines so trying to think of stuff you should keep in mind, you need to be 6.5 inch up in ruins to not be in melee range, they dont get their invo in CC but arn't slouch's in CC either and can do circa 24+inch charge with 50% chance if built for it.
Also their hight and movement stats could make hiding behind the first floor difficult.
Best of luck and even if your not winning your gaining experience for your next tournament.
I think Smash-captains are a pretty great way to mess up a knight in CC, especially if they're BA. Knight shooting invulns have gotten a huge boost, so CC may now be the way to bring one down nice and quick.
How does everyone fair against Dark Eldar & Eldar hybrid armies. My buddy plays a ton of wave serpents and ravagers & raiders. The DE ships are like paper, but the eldar ones are such a pain. (Normally -2 to hit due to Eldar trait and advancing) I normally end up needing to charge them, but we have very limited melee options. Do you guys run Vanguard Vets or just let a Captain with a bike or jetpack deal with those pesky flyers?
Hey guys, I've been planning to start my third marine army, and I'm having a tough choice between ultramarines and imperial fists. They both have good value as a gunline, but I'm more intrested about imperial fists, their colour scheme fits well with hawkshroud knights. So, question is, what works with imperial fists? My previous armies are dark angels and space wolves.
Sonminiser wrote: How does everyone fair against Dark Eldar & Eldar hybrid armies. My buddy plays a ton of wave serpents and ravagers & raiders. The DE ships are like paper, but the eldar ones are such a pain. (Normally -2 to hit due to Eldar trait and advancing) I normally end up needing to charge them, but we have very limited melee options. Do you guys run Vanguard Vets or just let a Captain with a bike or jetpack deal with those pesky flyers?
With my Raven Guard I've had success with a jpack captain with TH/SS (shield eternal). He's pretty good at deleting a Ravager or Raider once per round. The durability is pretty good as well. The last game I played he was able to SFS, charge and destroy a Ravager in one go. He then survived 2 rounds in close-combat with 2 Archons who disembarked from a Venom. I would've killed an Archon on the next round but he made 3 of 6 FNP's to stay alive and then got killed by a biker SC (practicing for a team tournament which explains the odd Drukhari/Custodes pairing). I usually back him up with Shrike and VV vets with chainswords/SS and lightning claws. Shrike isn't that bad actually against DELDAR vehicles with his relic claws. Most vehicles are t5/t6 and d3 damage adds up. The VV can then charge whatever was inside.
With Eldar it's much the same. I rely on CC to tie-up and destroy vehicles. Melta bombs are a steal as well. I can usually find the points to throw them on the squad which helps put some wounds on things as well.
Aleister_Dakka wrote: Any tips on beating Necrons? Playing 2k points, was against 3x Catacomb Barges, 3x full Destroyer squads, 3x5 Immortals with Destroyer Lord and some other things I forget. I was playing with LRC, 2 squads of Terminators (one regular, one Assault), a Redemptor Dread, Helbrecht, Emp Champ, Captain, 2x Lt, 3x5 Crusaders (3x Plasmagun, 2x LC, 1x HB), 3x 5-man Scouts with bolters. I'm considering some Assbacks for a high ROF vs. the Barges shielding. And yeah I know Terminators are suboptimal I just love them and the LRC. It may have just been that he was rolling super hot on Barge shots
I main necrons
Vs that list...you need to absolutely destroy those destroyers, 1 squad at a time. That is 900 points of his army tied up in 3 6 model squads.
Thunder hammers and 2 damage weapons are excellent vs barges as well. Remember, honestly, necrons get like, 3-4 attacks most times on the charge
Assault cannons are good, autocannons are better for anti-tank. Sadly, the terminators and land raider are likely priority 1 for him.
Spreelock wrote: Hey guys, I've been planning to start my third marine army, and I'm having a tough choice between ultramarines and imperial fists. They both have good value as a gunline, but I'm more intrested about imperial fists, their colour scheme fits well with hawkshroud knights. So, question is, what works with imperial fists? My previous armies are dark angels and space wolves.
my suggestion? neither make a custom sucessor chapter so you can experiment with tactics a bit.
Spreelock wrote: Hey guys, I've been planning to start my third marine army, and I'm having a tough choice between ultramarines and imperial fists. They both have good value as a gunline, but I'm more intrested about imperial fists, their colour scheme fits well with hawkshroud knights. So, question is, what works with imperial fists? My previous armies are dark angels and space wolves.
my suggestion? neither make a custom sucessor chapter so you can experiment with tactics a bit.
O...kay, I'll propably just going to make shooty imperial cheesysnacks. Mainly focusing at primaris marines.
Anyone been having any luck with mobile vanilla marine armies as of late? I feel like I've been pigeon-holed into a static gunline army as of late. There are some turns that I don't move a single model and it just feels boring but I'm not quite sure how to switch it up.
So anyone been doing well with a mobile marine army?
Only mobile army I can see that has any chance of doing anything against the likes of eldar/dark eldar or tau is some sort of raven guard alpha strike force, after the FAQ, it is either that or the static gunline taking advantage of gulliman. Footslogging or trying to get forward in rhinos is a plan doomed to failure, as is the general trend, it's a better idea to take more infantry in place of transports, since marine transports don't give any real mobility anymore, they can be tied up and they don't shoot effectively for their points.
Vilehydra wrote: Anyone been having any luck with mobile vanilla marine armies as of late? I feel like I've been pigeon-holed into a static gunline army as of late. There are some turns that I don't move a single model and it just feels boring but I'm not quite sure how to switch it up.
So anyone been doing well with a mobile marine army?
If you're getting that bored, try Chainsword Vanguard with a Jump Chaplain + the helm in a Black Templars detachment I guess. There's not much anymore the codex offers I'm afraid compared to the special snowflake codices...
Even with the excellent selection of FW units, I find little reason to go with the Vanilla codex compared to, say, Deathwatch. Only thing we are offering is Scouts. That's literally it.
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Postulent wrote: Only mobile army I can see that has any chance of doing anything against the likes of eldar/dark eldar or tau is some sort of raven guard alpha strike force, after the FAQ, it is either that or the static gunline taking advantage of gulliman. Footslogging or trying to get forward in rhinos is a plan doomed to failure, as is the general trend, it's a better idea to take more infantry in place of transports, since marine transports don't give any real mobility anymore, they can be tied up and they don't shoot effectively for their points.
I think the Termite Drills offer some potential beta strike potential (unless you really think you can alpha, but godspeed with that) but what's getting more offensive output compared to the special codices?
Postulent wrote: Only mobile army I can see that has any chance of doing anything against the likes of eldar/dark eldar or tau is some sort of raven guard alpha strike force, after the FAQ, it is either that or the static gunline taking advantage of gulliman. Footslogging or trying to get forward in rhinos is a plan doomed to failure, as is the general trend, it's a better idea to take more infantry in place of transports, since marine transports don't give any real mobility anymore, they can be tied up and they don't shoot effectively for their points.
I think it's actually a bit of a trap to think you HAVE to be static with Roboute.
Moving makes you shoot worse, but not that much worse, and the re-rolls to wound typically about makes up for or more than make up for the penalty for moving compared to other aura options.
Obviously it's better to stay still if you can, but you should think of his bonus as being "reroll all wounds and then choose between rerolling hits OR shooting heavy weapons with no penalty for moving" because mathematically rerolling hits and going from BS3 to BS4 cancel each other out.
It's only if your opponent also has a -1 to hit that moving really starts to take a toll, since you reroll dice before you modify them, but moving with Roboute is still better than not moving with just a captain or just a Lt.
And of course you still get the re-rolls to wound, which is the thing that is actually amazing about RG, since it makes guns anywhere from 16 to 83 percent better at wounding, depending on the result you need to wound, with it helping weak weapons more than good ones. Unless you are winding in 6s, rolling wounds is better than having +1 to wound, which is good to keep in mind, I think.
Postulent wrote: Only mobile army I can see that has any chance of doing anything against the likes of eldar/dark eldar or tau is some sort of raven guard alpha strike force, after the FAQ, it is either that or the static gunline taking advantage of gulliman. Footslogging or trying to get forward in rhinos is a plan doomed to failure, as is the general trend, it's a better idea to take more infantry in place of transports, since marine transports don't give any real mobility anymore, they can be tied up and they don't shoot effectively for their points.
I think it's actually a bit of a trap to think you HAVE to be static with Roboute.
Moving makes you shoot worse, but not that much worse, and the re-rolls to wound typically about makes up for or more than make up for the penalty for moving compared to other aura options.
Obviously it's better to stay still if you can, but you should think of his bonus as being "reroll all wounds and then choose between rerolling hits OR shooting heavy weapons with no penalty for moving" because mathematically rerolling hits and going from BS3 to BS4 cancel each other out.
It's only if your opponent also has a -1 to hit that moving really starts to take a toll, since you reroll dice before you modify them, but moving with Roboute is still better than not moving with just a captain or just a Lt.
And of course you still get the re-rolls to wound, which is the thing that is actually amazing about RG, since it makes guns anywhere from 16 to 83 percent better at wounding, depending on the result you need to wound, with it helping weak weapons more than good ones. Unless you are winding in 6s, rolling wounds is better than having +1 to wound, which is good to keep in mind, I think.
It's a metaphorical static. You're basically forced into Roboute's aura, which means if he doesn't move you really don't either.
Postulent wrote: Only mobile army I can see that has any chance of doing anything against the likes of eldar/dark eldar or tau is some sort of raven guard alpha strike force, after the FAQ, it is either that or the static gunline taking advantage of gulliman. Footslogging or trying to get forward in rhinos is a plan doomed to failure, as is the general trend, it's a better idea to take more infantry in place of transports, since marine transports don't give any real mobility anymore, they can be tied up and they don't shoot effectively for their points.
I think it's actually a bit of a trap to think you HAVE to be static with Roboute.
Moving makes you shoot worse, but not that much worse, and the re-rolls to wound typically about makes up for or more than make up for the penalty for moving compared to other aura options.
Obviously it's better to stay still if you can, but you should think of his bonus as being "reroll all wounds and then choose between rerolling hits OR shooting heavy weapons with no penalty for moving" because mathematically rerolling hits and going from BS3 to BS4 cancel each other out.
It's only if your opponent also has a -1 to hit that moving really starts to take a toll, since you reroll dice before you modify them, but moving with Roboute is still better than not moving with just a captain or just a Lt.
And of course you still get the re-rolls to wound, which is the thing that is actually amazing about RG, since it makes guns anywhere from 16 to 83 percent better at wounding, depending on the result you need to wound, with it helping weak weapons more than good ones. Unless you are winding in 6s, rolling wounds is better than having +1 to wound, which is good to keep in mind, I think.
It's a metaphorical static. You're basically forced into Roboute's aura, which means if he doesn't move you really don't either.
Sure, but he has an 8" move, and it's probably good to advance him sometimes as well. My point is you probably shouldn't just sit still in your deployment zone with everything as the default, since you still get most of the benefits when you move and RG is so good in close combat you probably want him there ASAP.
Vilehydra wrote: Anyone been having any luck with mobile vanilla marine armies as of late? I feel like I've been pigeon-holed into a static gunline army as of late. There are some turns that I don't move a single model and it just feels boring but I'm not quite sure how to switch it up.
So anyone been doing well with a mobile marine army?
As someone who didn't play between 5th and 8th, this is what I'm liking least about my return to 40k and marines. All my vehicles now have a -1 if I want to move and the edition's focus on 6" bubbles makes me want to mob up and stand still instead of corral and flank with melta bunkers.
Postulent wrote: Only mobile army I can see that has any chance of doing anything against the likes of eldar/dark eldar or tau is some sort of raven guard alpha strike force, after the FAQ, it is either that or the static gunline taking advantage of gulliman. Footslogging or trying to get forward in rhinos is a plan doomed to failure, as is the general trend, it's a better idea to take more infantry in place of transports, since marine transports don't give any real mobility anymore, they can be tied up and they don't shoot effectively for their points.
I think it's actually a bit of a trap to think you HAVE to be static with Roboute.
Moving makes you shoot worse, but not that much worse, and the re-rolls to wound typically about makes up for or more than make up for the penalty for moving compared to other aura options.
Obviously it's better to stay still if you can, but you should think of his bonus as being "reroll all wounds and then choose between rerolling hits OR shooting heavy weapons with no penalty for moving" because mathematically rerolling hits and going from BS3 to BS4 cancel each other out.
It's only if your opponent also has a -1 to hit that moving really starts to take a toll, since you reroll dice before you modify them, but moving with Roboute is still better than not moving with just a captain or just a Lt.
And of course you still get the re-rolls to wound, which is the thing that is actually amazing about RG, since it makes guns anywhere from 16 to 83 percent better at wounding, depending on the result you need to wound, with it helping weak weapons more than good ones. Unless you are winding in 6s, rolling wounds is better than having +1 to wound, which is good to keep in mind, I think.
It's a metaphorical static. You're basically forced into Roboute's aura, which means if he doesn't move you really don't either.
Sure, but he has an 8" move, and it's probably good to advance him sometimes as well. My point is you probably shouldn't just sit still in your deployment zone with everything as the default, since you still get most of the benefits when you move and RG is so good in close combat you probably want him there ASAP.
The problem is your not comparing like for like, static shooting with Bobby G is better than moving shooting with Bobby G.
Also while Bobby G is no slouch in CC very little else in the marine codex excells in CC.
Though sadly at this point I think the vanilla marine codex is showing its age and just can't answer the competitive lists from the newer codex's.
Postulent wrote: Only mobile army I can see that has any chance of doing anything against the likes of eldar/dark eldar or tau is some sort of raven guard alpha strike force, after the FAQ, it is either that or the static gunline taking advantage of gulliman. Footslogging or trying to get forward in rhinos is a plan doomed to failure, as is the general trend, it's a better idea to take more infantry in place of transports, since marine transports don't give any real mobility anymore, they can be tied up and they don't shoot effectively for their points.
I think it's actually a bit of a trap to think you HAVE to be static with Roboute.
Moving makes you shoot worse, but not that much worse, and the re-rolls to wound typically about makes up for or more than make up for the penalty for moving compared to other aura options.
Obviously it's better to stay still if you can, but you should think of his bonus as being "reroll all wounds and then choose between rerolling hits OR shooting heavy weapons with no penalty for moving" because mathematically rerolling hits and going from BS3 to BS4 cancel each other out.
It's only if your opponent also has a -1 to hit that moving really starts to take a toll, since you reroll dice before you modify them, but moving with Roboute is still better than not moving with just a captain or just a Lt.
And of course you still get the re-rolls to wound, which is the thing that is actually amazing about RG, since it makes guns anywhere from 16 to 83 percent better at wounding, depending on the result you need to wound, with it helping weak weapons more than good ones. Unless you are winding in 6s, rolling wounds is better than having +1 to wound, which is good to keep in mind, I think.
It's a metaphorical static. You're basically forced into Roboute's aura, which means if he doesn't move you really don't either.
Sure, but he has an 8" move, and it's probably good to advance him sometimes as well. My point is you probably shouldn't just sit still in your deployment zone with everything as the default, since you still get most of the benefits when you move and RG is so good in close combat you probably want him there ASAP.
The problem is your not comparing like for like, static shooting with Bobby G is better than moving shooting with Bobby G.
Also while Bobby G is no slouch in CC very little else in the marine codex excells in CC.
Though sadly at this point I think the vanilla marine codex is showing its age and just can't answer the competitive lists from the newer codex's.
My point is that usually it's not that much better, so you shouldn't be afraid to move if the mission etc demands it. I did say obviously it is better if you are still.
I know I personally get into the mental out of "never move heavy weapons no matter what" when that isn't always the right choice, especially when you have Roboute around, so I was just commenting on that.
The problem with moving forward is that you are effectively only downgrading your own shooting, even with gulliman buffs, if you move and are shooting an alaitoc serpent or any space elf flier really, you aren't going to do much. Moving forward in an aura bubble box also opens you to being tied up, a venom can gently bump your razorback without losing anything, and you won't be able to shoot. Since you are forced to be in box formation, a savvy opponent will just charge one tank and swing himself with charge and pile moves to touch multiple tanks and disables them all for a turn, also quite likely forcing you to move even more tanks and Bobby G just to have room to fall back with the tied vehicles in the first place.
This is the problem with gulliman gunline, you are either forced to stay still, maximize your effective firepower and try to outshoot the opponent for the first three turns before moving forward when the enemy is hopefully enough murdered not to be able to contest you (also known as tau fortress tactic) or moving forward and weakening your own shooting while also simultaneously making yourself vulnerable to being tied up by either expendable or flying units.
So you either move which puts you into a disadvantage by itself in form of hit penalties or being tied up, or try to outshoot xenos gunlines in a static gunfight, which they will win, or at least control the board to the extent that you will lose anyway.
Yeah that's definitely a good summary of the tactical options and their issues. I think my point is that the second option can often be the better one, and I think sometimes people forget that. It in no way makes Marines a better army.
They are still fundamentally flawed and stuck in a world where if I didn't know better GW forgot 8th was coming out, made a SM codex based on 7th edition by nerfing all the OP stuff, and then converted it to 8th at the last minute by removing all the special rules and dumping in primaris units.
Postulent wrote: The problem with moving forward is that you are effectively only downgrading your own shooting, even with gulliman buffs, if you move and are shooting an alaitoc serpent or any space elf flier really, you aren't going to do much. Moving forward in an aura bubble box also opens you to being tied up, a venom can gently bump your razorback without losing anything, and you won't be able to shoot. Since you are forced to be in box formation, a savvy opponent will just charge one tank and swing himself with charge and pile moves to touch multiple tanks and disables them all for a turn, also quite likely forcing you to move even more tanks and Bobby G just to have room to fall back with the tied vehicles in the first place.
This is the problem with gulliman gunline, you are either forced to stay still, maximize your effective firepower and try to outshoot the opponent for the first three turns before moving forward when the enemy is hopefully enough murdered not to be able to contest you (also known as tau fortress tactic) or moving forward and weakening your own shooting while also simultaneously making yourself vulnerable to being tied up by either expendable or flying units.
So you either move which puts you into a disadvantage by itself in form of hit penalties or being tied up, or try to outshoot xenos gunlines in a static gunfight, which they will win, or at least control the board to the extent that you will lose anyway.
Or... if you use Rapid-Fire Weapons your damage output increases as you get closer. Also Rapid Fire weapons don't have a negative modifier for moving. Plus if you're doing the UM thing and not relying on vehicles for your firepower, you don't get tied up with CC.
People aren't planning to tie you up in melee in the first place overall just because you can fall back and it's an unreliable way to stop someone from shooting. The best way to stop that is to kill the unit.
In a perfect world you could definitely bring a bunch of Marines along with RG to move up, rapid fire, and charge with him. There just isn't a great way to do that with the current unit costs and transport interactions.
Well, Imo in a perfect world you wouldn't be relying on Guilliman at all. But I'm also of the opinion that he's not all he's cracked up to be, especially at 400 points. If, you're looking for mobility, that's 5 1/2 Rhinos.
Honestly, I don't see any other competitive build for marines other than what raven guard can do. As we previously established, gulliman gunline is outdated and FAQ removed all other alpha strike options besides raven guard gimmicks. Marines can't make a good gunline or melee alpha strike, they can't do hordes and they can't do a sponge list that can take a beating, not much left, everything is just too overpriced and nothing has fly or superheavy status which seems to be the qualification to count as a good vehicle these days.
jcd386 wrote: Yeah, I wish they would remove his re-roll auras and just price him for what he can do himself, plus his LD and advance/charge auras.
Which would be worthless. I wouldn't take him at 250 points just for those auras.
You're saying there is no possible points cost or state of the SM codex where a non "pile up and reroll everything!" version of RG would be worth taking? Okay.
jcd386 wrote: Yeah, I wish they would remove his re-roll auras and just price him for what he can do himself, plus his LD and advance/charge auras.
Which would be worthless. I wouldn't take him at 250 points just for those auras.
You're saying there is no possible points cost or state of the SM codex where a non "pile up and reroll everything!" version of RG would be worth taking? Okay.
I think a lot of people would like to not feel that they must field RG + parking lot to have a hope in mildly competitive setting with marines.
The re-roll, re-roll buff is also impossible to balance, buffing 3 CC venerable dreadnaughts its worth nothing like what it is buffing 3 fireraptors.
The aura's are fundamentally flawed as they can not be remotely balanced. They need to be replaced by something quantifiable.
Like CP regenerate on a 4+ if Guilliman is your warlord.
Allows 1 strategum to be used twice in a phase
Things that can be costed as they aren't wildly different based on what it affects.
jcd386 wrote: Yeah, I wish they would remove his re-roll auras and just price him for what he can do himself, plus his LD and advance/charge auras.
Which would be worthless. I wouldn't take him at 250 points just for those auras.
You're saying there is no possible points cost or state of the SM codex where a non "pile up and reroll everything!" version of RG would be worth taking? Okay.
I think a lot of people would like to not feel that they must field RG + parking lot to have a hope in mildly competitive setting with marines.
The re-roll, re-roll buff is also impossible to balance, buffing 3 CC venerable dreadnaughts its worth nothing like what it is buffing 3 fireraptors.
The aura's are fundamentally flawed as they can not be remotely balanced. They need to be replaced by something quantifiable.
Like CP regenerate on a 4+ if Guilliman is your warlord.
Allows 1 strategum to be used twice in a phase
Things that can be costed as they aren't wildly different based on what it affects.
Yeah. Even in a state of perfect balance and multiple ways to make a competitive SM list, Roboute can only be balanced by pricing him under the assumption that you have 6 or so of the best SM shooting units around him, and pigeon holes you into crowding everything you can around him or not getting the most out of your points. It's just bad design.
jcd386 wrote: Yeah, I wish they would remove his re-roll auras and just price him for what he can do himself, plus his LD and advance/charge auras.
Which would be worthless. I wouldn't take him at 250 points just for those auras.
You're saying there is no possible points cost or state of the SM codex where a non "pile up and reroll everything!" version of RG would be worth taking? Okay.
The codex is priced like it was designed for you take Roboute in the first place AND at the same time you're using the Raven Guard Strategem!
Look at the basic Sternguard vs Deathwatch Vet with a Storm Bolter. Would you rather have:
1. 2 attacks and either Rapid Fire 2 S4 AP0 or Rapid Fire 1 S4 AP-2 at 30" for 18 points
OR
2. 3 attacks and Rapid Fire 2 Special Ammunition at 20 points
It literally isn't a contest. Sternguard only look good in comparison if you're next to Roboute or you infiltrate them (and of course Deathwatch have their own Deep Strike stratagem so...)
jcd386 wrote: Yeah, I wish they would remove his re-roll auras and just price him for what he can do himself, plus his LD and advance/charge auras.
Which would be worthless. I wouldn't take him at 250 points just for those auras.
You're saying there is no possible points cost or state of the SM codex where a non "pile up and reroll everything!" version of RG would be worth taking? Okay.
The codex is priced like it was designed for you take Roboute in the first place AND at the same time you're using the Raven Guard Strategem!
Look at the basic Sternguard vs Deathwatch Vet with a Storm Bolter. Would you rather have:
1. 2 attacks and either Rapid Fire 2 S4 AP0 or Rapid Fire 1 S4 AP-2 at 30" for 18 points
OR
2. 3 attacks and Rapid Fire 2 Special Ammunition at 20 points
It literally isn't a contest. Sternguard only look good in comparison if you're next to Roboute or you infiltrate them (and of course Deathwatch have their own Deep Strike stratagem so...)
Your comparison and conclusion is valid, though I'm not sure it has much to do with RG specifically. If it does have anything to do with him, I feel like he is way down on the list of relevant factors.
jcd386 wrote: Yeah, I wish they would remove his re-roll auras and just price him for what he can do himself, plus his LD and advance/charge auras.
Which would be worthless. I wouldn't take him at 250 points just for those auras.
You're saying there is no possible points cost or state of the SM codex where a non "pile up and reroll everything!" version of RG would be worth taking? Okay.
I think a lot of people would like to not feel that they must field RG + parking lot to have a hope in mildly competitive setting with marines.
The re-roll, re-roll buff is also impossible to balance, buffing 3 CC venerable dreadnaughts its worth nothing like what it is buffing 3 fireraptors.
The aura's are fundamentally flawed as they can not be remotely balanced. They need to be replaced by something quantifiable.
Like CP regenerate on a 4+ if Guilliman is your warlord.
Allows 1 strategum to be used twice in a phase
Things that can be costed as they aren't wildly different based on what it affects.
Ok, but the example you give isn't close in terms of points at all. 3 Fire Raptors cost way more than 3 Venerable Dreadnoughts. So yes, the value of an aura increases the more stuff you put in it. . . Which is like . . Duh.
Their value is directly tied to what they effect, which in turn is valued in points. There's also the fact that you wind up hampering mobility by keeping more and more of your army in range of an aura. For example, the Fire Raptors give up their incredible speed (part of their value) to stay within the aura. I know my armies wind up not expanding out as far as they might otherwise because I'm taking advantage of a Chapter Master/Lt. Combo. There are definitely scaling factors in regards to balance.
jcd386 wrote: Yeah, I wish they would remove his re-roll auras and just price him for what he can do himself, plus his LD and advance/charge auras.
Which would be worthless. I wouldn't take him at 250 points just for those auras.
You're saying there is no possible points cost or state of the SM codex where a non "pile up and reroll everything!" version of RG would be worth taking? Okay.
I think a lot of people would like to not feel that they must field RG + parking lot to have a hope in mildly competitive setting with marines.
The re-roll, re-roll buff is also impossible to balance, buffing 3 CC venerable dreadnaughts its worth nothing like what it is buffing 3 fireraptors.
The aura's are fundamentally flawed as they can not be remotely balanced. They need to be replaced by something quantifiable.
Like CP regenerate on a 4+ if Guilliman is your warlord.
Allows 1 strategum to be used twice in a phase
Things that can be costed as they aren't wildly different based on what it affects.
Ok, but the example you give isn't close in terms of points at all. 3 Fire Raptors cost way more than 3 Venerable Dreadnoughts. So yes, the value of an aura increases the more stuff you put in it. . . Which is like . . Duh.
Their value is directly tied to what they effect, which in turn is valued in points. There's also the fact that you wind up hampering mobility by keeping more and more of your army in range of an aura. For example, the Fire Raptors give up their incredible speed (part of their value) to stay within the aura. I know my armies wind up not expanding out as far as they might otherwise because I'm taking advantage of a Chapter Master/Lt. Combo. There are definitely scaling factors in regards to balance.
The point is a Close combat dreadnaught is hitting on 2+ wounding on 2+ re'rolling everything is just reroll 1's its worth nothing.
Lets keep it codex and say asscannon razorbacks hit on 3+ wound on 5+ vrs vehicals so rerolling 1&2 and 1,2,3 & 4. It's a much bigger effect. It also leads to wierd builds that rediculous abuse the reroll to make things work that shouldn't. So asscannon razorbacks get massive points hit and those of use not clabusing Bobby G get shafted out of a viable anti hoard option.
The reroll buff is broken and will just result in all anti hoard weapons being priced so high they don't work against hoards.
Yeah, wounds are the issue from what I can tell. Reroll all wounds auras shouldn't exist IMO because it effects some weapons a lot more than others.
Reroll hits effects all weapons that have to roll to hit (so not flamers) by the same amount, so it can be reasonably quantified based on ballistic skill. If you have BS3+, rerolling all hits increases your damage by 33% for every weapon in the game. This has a pretty clear value.
Wounding has to do with S vs T so re-rolls to wound help weak weapons that wound on 5s and 6s significantly more than they do anything else, so it makes more sense to buy high rate of fire low strength weapons and then boost their power up to 83% against things they are bad at instead of just buying guns that are good at killing high T things that might only be boosted 33%.
jcd386 wrote: Yeah, I wish they would remove his re-roll auras and just price him for what he can do himself, plus his LD and advance/charge auras.
Which would be worthless. I wouldn't take him at 250 points just for those auras.
You're saying there is no possible points cost or state of the SM codex where a non "pile up and reroll everything!" version of RG would be worth taking? Okay.
I think a lot of people would like to not feel that they must field RG + parking lot to have a hope in mildly competitive setting with marines.
The re-roll, re-roll buff is also impossible to balance, buffing 3 CC venerable dreadnaughts its worth nothing like what it is buffing 3 fireraptors.
The aura's are fundamentally flawed as they can not be remotely balanced. They need to be replaced by something quantifiable.
Like CP regenerate on a 4+ if Guilliman is your warlord.
Allows 1 strategum to be used twice in a phase
Things that can be costed as they aren't wildly different based on what it affects.
Ok, but the example you give isn't close in terms of points at all. 3 Fire Raptors cost way more than 3 Venerable Dreadnoughts. So yes, the value of an aura increases the more stuff you put in it. . . Which is like . . Duh.
Their value is directly tied to what they effect, which in turn is valued in points. There's also the fact that you wind up hampering mobility by keeping more and more of your army in range of an aura. For example, the Fire Raptors give up their incredible speed (part of their value) to stay within the aura. I know my armies wind up not expanding out as far as they might otherwise because I'm taking advantage of a Chapter Master/Lt. Combo. There are definitely scaling factors in regards to balance.
The point is a Close combat dreadnaught is hitting on 2+ wounding on 2+ re'rolling everything is just reroll 1's its worth nothing.
Lets keep it codex and say asscannon razorbacks hit on 3+ wound on 5+ vrs vehicals so rerolling 1&2 and 1,2,3 & 4. It's a much bigger effect. It also leads to wierd builds that rediculous abuse the reroll to make things work that shouldn't. So asscannon razorbacks get massive points hit and those of use not clabusing Bobby G get shafted out of a viable anti hoard option.
The reroll buff is broken and will just result in all anti hoard weapons being priced so high they don't work against hoards.
Yeah, different weapons benefit nore from rerolls, just like different units benefit more or less from rerolls. But also, different units benefit more from terrain than others, and different units are countered more or less hard by different units, and different spells get more value with different units, and certain weapons have more value against certain units, etc. Etc. Etc. Expecting linear relationships here is pretty unreasonable, and no, I don't think it's simply "bad design".
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: If you really think speed is part of the value with Fire Raptors I'm guessing you haven't looked at the unit entry once.
If you think extreme mobility has no value I heavily question your tactical acumen.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: It has no value on a unit like the Raptor if you ever bothered to read its weapon stats.
It does if you want to flank to deny non-infantry cover or jam forward to snipe poorly protected characters.
It sounds like you, on top of not actually knowing the weapons the Fire Raptor carries, don't know the price of it if you're seriously suggesting throwing it in the middle of your opponents army to kill a character.
The Fire Raptor KILLS the screens protecting characters. Seriously. Please read the unit entry.
Insectum7 wrote: Maybe I'm not doing this at the start of the game, but later in the match when it's a safer move. This isn't rocket science.
If it's that late in the game you're actually able to do that you already won. So I have no clue what kinda games you're playing based off the fact you're running 40+ Tactical Marines in the first place.
Oh I dunno, picking up more points for proggressive scoring, for a simple and explicit example. Really, just a smidgen of thought would go a long way here.
But whatever, feel free to keep on about mobility having no value.
Insectum7 wrote: Oh I dunno, picking up more points for proggressive scoring, for a simple and explicit example. Really, just a smidgen of thought would go a long way here.
But whatever, feel free to keep on about mobility having no value.
It has no value on a unit like the Fire Raptor. Next you're gonna say that the Basilisk having movement is important.
Insectum7 wrote: Oh I dunno, picking up more points for proggressive scoring, for a simple and explicit example. Really, just a smidgen of thought would go a long way here.
But whatever, feel free to keep on about mobility having no value.
It has no value on a unit like the Fire Raptor. Next you're gonna say that the Basilisk having movement is important.
If you can't see a difference in value between a 45" movement with no penalty to firing weapons, and a 12" movement with a -1 to hit, that's on you.
Insectum7 wrote: Oh I dunno, picking up more points for proggressive scoring, for a simple and explicit example. Really, just a smidgen of thought would go a long way here.
But whatever, feel free to keep on about mobility having no value.
It has no value on a unit like the Fire Raptor. Next you're gonna say that the Basilisk having movement is important.
If you can't see a difference in value between a 45" movement with no penalty to firing weapons, and a 12" movement with a -1 to hit, that's on you.
When the weapons already have a range that you only really need to move once or twice, YES it has no value. This isn't difficult to grasp at all.
So here's what I learned today: Being able to move with no penalty has no value. Maneuvering to deny cover has no value. And maneuvering to snipe characters has no value. I mean, why would you want the ability to take advantage of your opoonents board position or anything like that? :/
jcd386 wrote: Yeah, I wish they would remove his re-roll auras and just price him for what he can do himself, plus his LD and advance/charge auras.
Which would be worthless. I wouldn't take him at 250 points just for those auras.
You're saying there is no possible points cost or state of the SM codex where a non "pile up and reroll everything!" version of RG would be worth taking? Okay.
I think a lot of people would like to not feel that they must field RG + parking lot to have a hope in mildly competitive setting with marines.
The re-roll, re-roll buff is also impossible to balance, buffing 3 CC venerable dreadnaughts its worth nothing like what it is buffing 3 fireraptors.
The aura's are fundamentally flawed as they can not be remotely balanced. They need to be replaced by something quantifiable.
Like CP regenerate on a 4+ if Guilliman is your warlord.
Allows 1 strategum to be used twice in a phase
Things that can be costed as they aren't wildly different based on what it affects.
What if they changed the aura to does not effect fliers and/or vehicles?
Guilliman should have just been a re-roll 1's bubble 12" for all SMs and codex compliant SM units in a battle forged army with Gman as it's warlord retain their chapter tactics in mixed chapter detachments.
Re-rolling all wounds is just too impactful. It changes units damage output too much in relation to the just re-roll 1s and, as we have seen by Gman's price changing every chance they get, GW is unable to balance it.
While we're all having a moment anyone else getting frustrated by so many things being straight up better/cheaper than SM options?
Off the top of my head (just stuff I've seen recently) DE disintegrator cannons being grav cannons +1 for half the points, putting out dual AC shooting for 2/3rds the points, armigaers with 2x pred auto-cannons+PoTMS+1 w+CqC+strats for 20% more points, DW basically being primaris +1, the fact that SM have the weakest selection of strats. I mean if I put any effort into it the list would be so long. At this point is really feels like piling on. Hell I get "poor guy" smiles when I show up to the local and unpack my marines.
The best things in our codex wouldn't even make it onto the table in most competitive builds in other armies. I feel that the only competitively priced option we have is a leviathan dread and I think with the new IK codex it is outclassed for the points.
Unless you are building a super competitive list out of SM it's hard to even compete with casual lists from other armies at this point. I get to be a "WAAC try hard" with black ultra marines who gets tabled by turn 4 by the casual DE player who just pulled out his guys for the first time since 6th...
That is Gulliman's problem really, his aura is so utterly broken that anything it affects must be subpar for it to even out. That is why most space marine units are so bad, they are about as good as best units of other codexes when they are re-rolling everything.
jcd386 wrote: Yeah, I wish they would remove his re-roll auras and just price him for what he can do himself, plus his LD and advance/charge auras.
Which would be worthless. I wouldn't take him at 250 points just for those auras.
You're saying there is no possible points cost or state of the SM codex where a non "pile up and reroll everything!" version of RG would be worth taking? Okay.
I think a lot of people would like to not feel that they must field RG + parking lot to have a hope in mildly competitive setting with marines.
The re-roll, re-roll buff is also impossible to balance, buffing 3 CC venerable dreadnaughts its worth nothing like what it is buffing 3 fireraptors.
The aura's are fundamentally flawed as they can not be remotely balanced. They need to be replaced by something quantifiable.
Like CP regenerate on a 4+ if Guilliman is your warlord.
Allows 1 strategum to be used twice in a phase
Things that can be costed as they aren't wildly different based on what it affects.
What if they changed the aura to does not effect fliers and/or vehicles?
Staight NO it needs to be removed from the game and which ever designer though that type of aura could be costed fairly needs to be sent back to primary school maths classes untill they learn to do some math hammer before every being allowed near even a rules suggestion box let alone a codex.
Guilliman can be great if you remove the buff aura and point cost him appropriately. Though at this point I honestly don't think GW have any intention of fixing codex marines.
Staight NO it need to be removed from the game and which ever designer though that type of aurs could be costed needs to be sent back to primary school maths classes untill they learn to do some math hammer before every being allowed near even a rules suggestion box let alone a codex.
Guilliman can be great if you remove the buff aura and point cost him appropriately. Though at this point I honestly don't think GW have any intention of fixing codex marines.
Tell us how you really feel, why don't you?
I liked Rites of Battle when it was a battlefield-wide buff as much as the next guy, but aura mechanics aren't exactly awful. I like that it encourages focused spearheads of marine armies, with their heroes leading from the front.
Arua's works on a captain, lieutenant level, but rerolling all failed wounds leads to the BS of people using assualt Cannons to wreck tanks so they got nerf batted like crazy, Guilliman got nerf batted twice and 90% of the marine codex is still not competitive. Heck even the FW marine units arn't actually good enough to compete at tournaments. If that stupid reroll aura goes he might finally end up playable.
Also how in anyway does strategic and logistics master of war(fluff) result in reroll failed wounds as a special rule.
Heck 8th edition even has a rule called strategic disipline FFS the connection is so blatant the rules team have to be as bad an an ork shooting at an alitoc hard to hit flyer to miss that.
Aura buffs are fine and thematic as you say (although I'd rather the captain/LT just join the unit but whatever)
A buff that increases as many units as you can squeeze into a 12" diameter offense by 100% is not okay (re-roll all hits and all wounds).
Re-rolls of 1 is one thing, but re-rolling all misses/wounds on variable amounts of units is next to impossible to balance. That doesn't seem hard to predict with the most basic understanding of game design and really should have came out given any testing. Swinging the offensive output of units by 100% just isn't something you can design around and make things remotely balanced.
It's one of those pants on head stupid things that was done with the marine codex (costs of centurions, design of assault marines, chaplains in general, the stratagems and chapter tactics, tactics not applying to vehicles, plasma/melta cost, reivers, terminators, land raiders, I could probably keep going....)
getting rid of Gulliman's Aura would kinda suck the entire guy's schtick is he's supposed to be the best leader in the Imperium, the problem is more in line with how point costs are done, points are an additive thing, but Gulliman (indeed ALL Auras) are a force multiplier.
bananathug wrote: Aura buffs are fine and thematic as you say (although I'd rather the captain/LT just join the unit but whatever)
A buff that increases as many units as you can squeeze into a 12" diameter offense by 100% is not okay (re-roll all hits and all wounds).
Re-rolls of 1 is one thing, but re-rolling all misses/wounds on variable amounts of units is next to impossible to balance. That doesn't seem hard to predict with the most basic understanding of game design and really should have came out given any testing. Swinging the offensive output of units by 100% just isn't something you can design around and make things remotely balanced.
It's one of those pants on head stupid things that was done with the marine codex (costs of centurions, design of assault marines, chaplains in general, the stratagems and chapter tactics, tactics not applying to vehicles, plasma/melta cost, reivers, terminators, land raiders, I could probably keep going....)
IMO you're coming at it from an abstract and simplified "games theory" perspective and not "actual game" perspective. Direct and linear balance doesn't have to be a thing. Different units balance differently in different situations, with different inter-unit synergies, against different opponents, etc. Heck, different units have different purposes as products. Some are more useful as game pieces, while some are more spiffy from a fluff perspective, included simply because "it would be neat". (See Forge World).
I don't have too much of a dog in this particular fight though. I couldn't care less about Guilliman as I have no interest in using him.
BrianDavion wrote: getting rid of Gulliman's Aura would kinda suck the entire guy's schtick is he's supposed to be the best leader in the Imperium, the problem is more in line with how point costs are done, points are an additive thing, but Gulliman (indeed ALL Auras) are a force multiplier.
No you just have to think of how to represent that with something thats not going to totally break the core game mechanics.
Like allow him to
re use a strategum in a phase, take that vect fan boys
Apply a strategum to 2 units instead of 1 (needs playtested)
Regain CP's on 4+ or 3+
Give hims some command ability like all units get objective secured
Guilliman can play upto a 2CP stratageum from codex adaptes astartes for no CP loss once per battle round.
They all need playtested but they can be defined and hence costed in a somewhat balanced wsy.
Postulent wrote: That is Gulliman's problem really, his aura is so utterly broken that anything it affects must be subpar for it to even out. That is why most space marine units are so bad, they are about as good as best units of other codexes when they are re-rolling everything.
Postulent wrote: That is Gulliman's problem really, his aura is so utterly broken that anything it affects must be subpar for it to even out. That is why most space marine units are so bad, they are about as good as best units of other codexes when they are re-rolling everything.
There is absolutely no substance to this whine.
Would you like to provide a Ultramarine list thats won an event since the big FAQ dropped and Guilliman got double nerfed?
I like the idea of FW being a place for the fluffly, non-gamey models. Specialized products for the collector. Hell don't even give them game rules (maybe go as far as can be used as an official "counts as" model).
But to say that GW couldn't anticipate that Guillimans aura would be problematic seems disingenuous. The math is just so skewed by introducing him it's not hard to figure out that it was a bad idea.
The other issues seem to be a problem with codex creep as maybe they were justified in the index iteration of the game but 36" range, assault 3, s5, ap -3, 2d for 15 points vs a grav cannon @ 24" range, heavy 4, s5, ap-3, d3d for 28 points is flat crazy. Then take the situational aspect that the former goes on highly mobile and reasonably resilient platform while the latter is restricted to 2-3 platforms that move 4-6" while grav is one of the best TAC weapons in the marine codex... They missed both the theoretical and practical imbalance by a mile.
I don't think GW is working from a well thought out place of coherent army design and seem to just be throwing stuff against the wall and seeing what sticks in a codex. I don't think they know what they want marines to be and even less of an idea on how to make that work given the rules in 8th.
The other issues seem to be a problem with codex creep as maybe they were justified in the index iteration of the game but 36" range, assault 3, s5, ap -3, 2d for 15 points vs a grav cannon @ 24" range, heavy 4, s5, ap-3, d3d for 28 points is flat crazy. Then take the situational aspect that the former goes on highly mobile and reasonably resilient platform while the latter is restricted to 2-3 platforms that move 4-6" while grav is one of the best TAC weapons in the marine codex... They missed both the theoretical and practical imbalance by a mile.
I don't think GW is working from a well thought out place of coherent army design and seem to just be throwing stuff against the wall and seeing what sticks in a codex. I don't think they know what they want marines to be and even less of an idea on how to make that work given the rules in 8th.
Yeah, pretty much this. I think maybe GW thinks:"A vehicle with 10W T6 Sv4+ is more squishy than an infantry with 3W T5 Sv2+, so the weapon put on that should be half the price".
bananathug wrote: I like the idea of FW being a place for the fluffly, non-gamey models. Specialized products for the collector. Hell don't even give them game rules (maybe go as far as can be used as an official "counts as" model).
But to say that GW couldn't anticipate that Guillimans aura would be problematic seems disingenuous. The math is just so skewed by introducing him it's not hard to figure out that it was a bad idea.
The other issues seem to be a problem with codex creep as maybe they were justified in the index iteration of the game but 36" range, assault 3, s5, ap -3, 2d for 15 points vs a grav cannon @ 24" range, heavy 4, s5, ap-3, d3d for 28 points is flat crazy. Then take the situational aspect that the former goes on highly mobile and reasonably resilient platform while the latter is restricted to 2-3 platforms that move 4-6" while grav is one of the best TAC weapons in the marine codex... They missed both the theoretical and practical imbalance by a mile.
I don't think GW is working from a well thought out place of coherent army design and seem to just be throwing stuff against the wall and seeing what sticks in a codex. I don't think they know what they want marines to be and even less of an idea on how to make that work given the rules in 8th.
Actually for correction, the Grav Cannon is only D3 damage in certain circumstances.
bananathug wrote: I like the idea of FW being a place for the fluffly, non-gamey models. Specialized products for the collector. Hell don't even give them game rules (maybe go as far as can be used as an official "counts as" model).
But to say that GW couldn't anticipate that Guillimans aura would be problematic seems disingenuous. The math is just so skewed by introducing him it's not hard to figure out that it was a bad idea.
The other issues seem to be a problem with codex creep as maybe they were justified in the index iteration of the game but 36" range, assault 3, s5, ap -3, 2d for 15 points vs a grav cannon @ 24" range, heavy 4, s5, ap-3, d3d for 28 points is flat crazy. Then take the situational aspect that the former goes on highly mobile and reasonably resilient platform while the latter is restricted to 2-3 platforms that move 4-6" while grav is one of the best TAC weapons in the marine codex... They missed both the theoretical and practical imbalance by a mile.
I don't think GW is working from a well thought out place of coherent army design and seem to just be throwing stuff against the wall and seeing what sticks in a codex. I don't think they know what they want marines to be and even less of an idea on how to make that work given the rules in 8th.
Short on time, so apologies for not posting a more thorough response atm. But just looking at the weapon comparison, how do you think it compares to the Assault Cannon at 22 points, or the Plasma Cannon at 21. Because I think theres a closer case to be made for those weapons, which have more similar price points. Plasma Cannon in particular offering S8 AP-3 D2 with a 2 shot average and the same range. I also think the durability of the DE weapon platforms are often over represented, and the armies function quite differently.
Maybe the Desintegrator is undercosted, it might go up in price next time araound anyways.
As for Guilliman, I think he's in there more for "cool" than any specific game design function. He only really works for UM and even then, as many have said he's not exactly winning tournaments any more. I consider him such an outlier model that his relevance to overall codex balance seems pretty limited.
The Primaris really need to be revisited in order to make SMs better, imo.
I've been playing DW since the codex dropped, pretty much exclusively, and have had such a blast getting to do things that I should have been able to do with my marines all along.
For example, taking a 6-man intercessor squad with 4 hellblasters along for the ride. This squad is so tactically flexible compared to vanilla primaris. For a start, it can deepstrike in for 1CP, giving my hellblasters double protection: intercessor bullet sponges, and a turn off the board (DS into my own deployment zone has happened more than once). I can slingshot them forward with the beacon relic my cap carries, for an alpha strike.
Best of all, I can combat squad them down to 2 squads, each with 3 intercessors and 2 hellblasters; each 5-man squad here costs 128pts, and each marine has a gun worth taking, especially with native rerolling 1s to wound. With their cap's rerolls, and the right mission tactics, each 5-man squad built like this can shoot 5.2 damage onto a daemon prince. That's crazy, compared to the 1.3 damage that a standard intercessor squad would do.
In short, primaris need a reboot to reflect some of this great stuff across the chapters. Their rigidity is what's holding them back and making them so middling.
Automatically Appended Next Post: (If it's not obvious from my post, I recommend proxying DW to any frustrated SM player. They're solid as heck, and have the most interesting troops choices in the game right now. Of course they're not top table material, but they really do *feel* like a marine army.)
Insectum7 wrote: So here's what I learned today: Being able to move with no penalty has no value. Maneuvering to deny cover has no value. And maneuvering to snipe characters has no value. I mean, why would you want the ability to take advantage of your opoonents board position or anything like that? :/
I think we're done here.
I'm not sure if the other poster was able to impart what they meant sufficiently. Those things absolutely have value.
But they do not have much value on a unit that can reach out without needing to maneuver to do so, isn't meant to take on the role of a character sniper because that's a one way ticket to scrap town, and whose range should be used as a defensive asset that far outweighs the perceived value of its mobility. It has a role, and it should play to that role. Getting bogged down in a unit's potential flexibility is a massive pitfall for marine armies everywhere. The ability to do something does not in any way create value for a unit that shouldn't be doing it in the first place. Full stop.
Let's also ignore the fact that the Fire Raptor is so expensive that the only fires it's starting is on the shelf where it'll sit for the next 3 years
Martel732 wrote: Bobby G should have affected all Imperium equally. Much easier to balance.
The way I would fix him. Drop him to 280 points. He gives a 12" reroll all hits bubble to ultras and retains his other ability for imperium units. Flat out remove the reroll wounds aura and maybe give him plus 1 attack to compensate. Also make his fist do something.
Plasma with less shots, marginally more str, still heavy so minuses to hit, a 1/6 (or worse given all the -1, marginal -2 and rare but existing -3s to hit) chance to blow the model using up if we are going for 2d (so add that 7 points onto the cost of the weapon so it's sitting at 28 points too) and still costs more. Hell dark angels which increase the damage output by 50-100% of those weapons for 1cp still aren't performing (but at least the math is better). The new armigers with basically 2x pred auto cannons on a platform with better movement, wounds, close combat, PoTMS and army tactics for roughly 20% cost increase.
Math hammering out all of the weapons marines are lacking (read suck). 20-50%+ ON OUR BEST WEAPONS disadvantage across the board which is the result of balancing the dex around receiving free re-rolls of hits and wounds (IMHO). Assault cannons crushed by tau options, eldar and DE options but yet GW thought they needed a price INCREASE!?!?! Then we get into the "durability" of our troops and see the same disadvantage (although it's not quite as bad across the board but against the meta weapons we really suffer.)
Deathwatch getting special weapon ammo and free re-roll to wounds for a 5-10% cost increase (for what turns out to be a 30%ish increase in offensive capacity) and being basically competitive illustrates the mathematical disadvantage marines are starting with. Then I take a look at their strats and dream about deepstriking for 1cp or +1 to wound...
I love your optimism and can do attitude with marines. You have a great attitude and really try to apply tactical solutions to what I would consider a lesser dex. You inspire me to look inward for options I'm missing and try to outplay my opponent but that hill is getting steeper and steeper with each new release. I wonder how well you would do with a dex like DE or eldar or new knight soup?
I just look at what marines have and realize we are being left in the dust. I fear that codex Orcs will be the nail in coffin as we barely have enough to deal with their hordes as is, if they get any buffs (which they will and should) there will be 4-5 armies that barring crazy asymmetries in player skill/luck we will be at nearly insurmountable odds against.
I've been beating this drum since guard have dropped and I'm done. I'm going to focus on painting and buying cheap SM models to round out my collection (look at how cheap you can get most marine units on Ebay vs. other good armies). Hopefully once I hit the at least 2 of everything mark I've been aiming for (not counting FW I still need some stalkers, thunderfires, a couple other things) CA 2.0 will have dropped and I'll be able to step back and see where 8th is going and figure if it's a hobby I'm enjoying or just tolerating.
Just run everything as Deathwatch and you're gold basically. Vanilla codex offers these few things:
1. Scouts. They're still excellent
2. Ancients are pretty cool
3. Devastators and Hellblasters
With the latter you're better off with Dark Angel's though.
Plasma with less shots, marginally more str, still heavy so minuses to hit, a 1/6 (or worse given all the -1, marginal -2 and rare but existing -3s to hit) chance to blow the model using up if we are going for 2d (so add that 7 points onto the cost of the weapon so it's sitting at 28 points too) and still costs more.
Okay what are we doing here? Arbitrarily adding points to the weapon? "Marginally more strength" in this case means 4+ (normal) or 3+ (overcharged) to wound the very popular T7 vehicles, monsters etc. that the Disintegrator only wounds on 5's. I don't think you're giving this a fair shake.
Insectum7 wrote: So here's what I learned today: Being able to move with no penalty has no value. Maneuvering to deny cover has no value. And maneuvering to snipe characters has no value. I mean, why would you want the ability to take advantage of your opoonents board position or anything like that? :/
I think we're done here.
I'm not sure if the other poster was able to impart what they meant sufficiently. Those things absolutely have value.
Well here's the quotes:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: It has no value on a unit like the Raptor if you ever bothered to read its weapon stats.
But they do not have much value on a unit that can reach out without needing to maneuver to do so, isn't meant to take on the role of a character sniper because that's a one way ticket to scrap town, and whose range should be used as a defensive asset that far outweighs the perceived value of its mobility. It has a role, and it should play to that role. Getting bogged down in a unit's potential flexibility is a massive pitfall for marine armies everywhere. The ability to do something does not in any way create value for a unit that shouldn't be doing it in the first place. Full stop.
Nonsense. "Fixed fortifications are monuments to the stupidity of man." -Patton. The Fire Raptor wouldn't be nearly as useful as a building with a 36" range main gun. If the Fire Raptor couldn't move, or moved slowly, your opponent would have a much easier time dodging the thing.
As for the rest of the codex, Marines are general purpose by design. I think you have two ways of thinking about this. You can try and use them like they're hyper-specialized units, but as many posters have complained about, they aren't pointed competitively for that. Or, you can try to leverage their lack of specialty and use them to do the most annoying thing to the opponent at any given time. You get more of your points worth if you use them as general purpose units. Shooting and assaulting nets you more casualties and makes more of a headache for the opponent than just shooting. Imo it's the way to go, at least for me.
Plasma with less shots, marginally more str, still heavy so minuses to hit, a 1/6 (or worse given all the -1, marginal -2 and rare but existing -3s to hit) chance to blow the model using up if we are going for 2d (so add that 7 points onto the cost of the weapon so it's sitting at 28 points too) and still costs more.
Okay what are we doing here? Arbitrarily adding points to the weapon? "Marginally more strength" in this case means 4+ (normal) or 3+ (overcharged) to wound the very popular T7 vehicles, monsters etc. that the Disintegrator only wounds on 5's. I don't think you're giving this a fair shake.
Insectum7 wrote: So here's what I learned today: Being able to move with no penalty has no value. Maneuvering to deny cover has no value. And maneuvering to snipe characters has no value. I mean, why would you want the ability to take advantage of your opoonents board position or anything like that? :/
I think we're done here.
I'm not sure if the other poster was able to impart what they meant sufficiently. Those things absolutely have value.
Well here's the quotes:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: It has no value on a unit like the Raptor if you ever bothered to read its weapon stats.
But they do not have much value on a unit that can reach out without needing to maneuver to do so, isn't meant to take on the role of a character sniper because that's a one way ticket to scrap town, and whose range should be used as a defensive asset that far outweighs the perceived value of its mobility. It has a role, and it should play to that role. Getting bogged down in a unit's potential flexibility is a massive pitfall for marine armies everywhere. The ability to do something does not in any way create value for a unit that shouldn't be doing it in the first place. Full stop.
Nonsense. "Fixed fortifications are monuments to the stupidity of man." -Patton. The Fire Raptor wouldn't be nearly as useful as a building with a 36" range main gun. If the Fire Raptor couldn't move, or moved slowly, your opponent would have a much easier time dodging the thing.
As for the rest of the codex, Marines are general purpose by design. I think you have two ways of thinking about this. You can try and use them like they're hyper-specialized units, but as many posters have complained about, they aren't pointed competitively for that. Or, you can try to leverage their lack of specialty and use them to do the most annoying thing to the opponent at any given time. You get more of your points worth if you use them as general purpose units. Shooting and assaulting nets you more casualties and makes more of a headache for the opponent than just shooting. Imo it's the way to go, at least for me.
And yeah, the Fire Raptor's value isn't about its mobility. It could have a 10" move and still be as useful as it is now, because it overlays for mobility with those weapon stats.
That was literally not difficult to grasp at all from my posts and you seem to ignore it. I don't expect much from the poster putting value in Tactical Marines though.
And for the record quoting Patton doesn't make you special, especially when history can show you he actually wasn't terribly great when you analyze him (along with him not really getting tanks).
I'm sorry, did you just quote Patton in a thread about a tabletop wargame that uses abstraction to simulate battles in a universe of genetically modified super soldiers in the far future and try to use it to explain that a fire raptor rushing into an opponent's lines is a valuable use of the unit that we should be thankful we have access to?
That is by far the biggest, most pretentious stretch of an argument I've ever seen on this, or any forum. And that's saying a lot given the nature of the posts here. I am legitimately speechless. You've certainly allowed your reputation to proceed you. I can but only gape at the time commitment you took to write that comment and think that this was time better spent not saying anything.
Anybody who isn't batgak fething crazy - do not think simply because your fire raptor can move vast distances that it should do so. You can reach what you need to shoot and stay at range so that the threats you face are reduced as much as possible. Do not (I can't believe I have to say this, but apparently some people are writing novels to argue you should) fly it directly into the enemy's deployment to snipe a soft character. I'm sure there's a Patton quote for not flying into suicide, but alas - the field in which I plant my feths is barren, so none can be given this day.
I'm sorry, did you just quote Patton in a thread about a tabletop wargame that uses abstraction to simulate battles in a universe of genetically modified super soldiers in the far future and try to use it to explain that a fire raptor rushing into an opponent's lines is a valuable use of the unit that we should be thankful we have access to?
That is by far the biggest, most pretentious stretch of an argument I've ever seen on this, or any forum. And that's saying a lot given the nature of the posts here. I am legitimately speechless. You've certainly allowed your reputation to proceed you. I can but only gape at the time commitment you took to write that comment and think that this was time better spent not saying anything.
Anybody who isn't batgak fething crazy - do not think simply because your fire raptor can move vast distances that it should do so. You can reach what you need to shoot and stay at range so that the threats you face are reduced as much as possible. Do not (I can't believe I have to say this, but apparently some people are writing novels to argue you should) fly it directly into the enemy's deployment to snipe a soft character. I'm sure there's a Patton quote for not flying into suicide, but alas - the field in which I plant my feths is barren, so none can be given this day.
I'm sorry, did you just quote Patton in a thread about a tabletop wargame that uses abstraction to simulate battles in a universe of genetically modified super soldiers in the far future and try to use it to explain that a fire raptor rushing into an opponent's lines is a valuable use of the unit that we should be thankful we have access to?
That is by far the biggest, most pretentious stretch of an argument I've ever seen on this, or any forum. And that's saying a lot given the nature of the posts here. I am legitimately speechless. You've certainly allowed your reputation to proceed you. I can but only gape at the time commitment you took to write that comment and think that this was time better spent not saying anything.
Anybody who isn't batgak fething crazy - do not think simply because your fire raptor can move vast distances that it should do so. You can reach what you need to shoot and stay at range so that the threats you face are reduced as much as possible. Do not (I can't believe I have to say this, but apparently some people are writing novels to argue you should) fly it directly into the enemy's deployment to snipe a soft character. I'm sure there's a Patton quote for not flying into suicide, but alas - the field in which I plant my feths is barren, so none can be given this day.
Patton was a hack anyway.
Well those Scouts are likely part of a mandatory tax, so you might as well enjoy them. I dont think anyone denies how stupid the AM Battalion is right now though.
I'm sorry, did you just quote Patton in a thread about a tabletop wargame that uses abstraction to simulate battles in a universe of genetically modified super soldiers in the far future and try to use it to explain that a fire raptor rushing into an opponent's lines is a valuable use of the unit that we should be thankful we have access to?
That is by far the biggest, most pretentious stretch of an argument I've ever seen on this, or any forum. And that's saying a lot given the nature of the posts here. I am legitimately speechless. You've certainly allowed your reputation to proceed you. I can but only gape at the time commitment you took to write that comment and think that this was time better spent not saying anything.
Anybody who isn't batgak fething crazy - do not think simply because your fire raptor can move vast distances that it should do so. You can reach what you need to shoot and stay at range so that the threats you face are reduced as much as possible. Do not (I can't believe I have to say this, but apparently some people are writing novels to argue you should) fly it directly into the enemy's deployment to snipe a soft character. I'm sure there's a Patton quote for not flying into suicide, but alas - the field in which I plant my feths is barren, so none can be given this day.
Overreaction much?
The fact remains, if the Fire Raptor was a building it wouldn't have the same value. The fact that it moves fast not only prevents against models ducking behind terrain to avoid it, but also opens up interesting opportunities to take advantage of positioning mistakes or openings forced though attrition.
Sternguard Veteran Squad [14 PL, 180pts] . Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Veteran Sergeant . . Special Issue Boltgun/Bolt Pistol: Special issue boltgun
Predator [9 PL, 180pts]: Predator autocannon, Two Lascannons
Predator [9 PL, 180pts]: Predator autocannon, Two Lascannons
So this is basically a gunline which will sit back and blast the enemy, I'm thinking of a solid wall of intercessors supported by veterans and characters to improve their shooting.
The dread and predators will sit toward the rear with the hellblasters and just do their thing shooting at tanks while the inceptors float around adding their weight of fire to things.
Please bear in mind I haven't actually played 8th yet Im just painting the lads up at the moment and want something to aim for.
Make it Raven Guard Chapter Tactics. That'll be better for you in the long run.
That'll also allow Shrike to get you them full rerolls without having to spend CP.
Now if you're super insistent on using Iron Hands, buy the FW book and use the entry for Vaylund Cal. That's about all Iron Hands Chapter Tactics have going for them...
Brother Payne wrote: Vaylund Cal wouldn't be a bad move in that list. Can fix the vehicles and is a better counter-threat than the gravis captain
He's also actually pretty tough as an HQ. Shame you don't get the Warlord Trait that gives an additional 6+++ though.
You want to be giving him Storm of Fire anyway so the no stacking FnPs isn't a huge loss
If you have mass fire weapons absolutely. However if you leave just a slight amount of space, your opponent can be baited to Deep Strike and try and take him out, only to find out he's T6 6+++/6+++, so Plasma suicides have a tough time. Then there's no room once you inch just a bit closer and kill those dudes. A lone 6+++ was capable of defending against 16 BS3+ Plasma hits (though by like .08 so you can basically expect him to die a lot), so the few times I've done it I was content.
Alex_85 wrote: In the Iron Hands list, that Dreadnought could be Venerable.
No point. While the upgrade to WS/BS2+ is nice you can get rerolls abound and you're partly paying for the extra 6+++, which GW decided shouldn't stack anymore for literally no good reason.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
godardc wrote: I really feel like the Space Marines codex is weaker than my friend's tyranids and necrons. What are you running these days to not loose ?
Basically nothing from the Vanilla codex. Scouts are cool. The Devastator trick with the Helfire/Flakk and Cherub is nice until they decide it shouldn't work anymore. Otherwise the only tips that are sorta fun:
1. Aggressor Bomb with Raven Guard Strike From The Shadows. Do two squads and an Ancient for fun times
2. Lias Sternguard and/or Devastator Bomb + an Ancient again
3. My personal favorite is the overly expensive Mortal Wound Bomb That Isn't Great (TM). You run Huron and two Damocles Rhinos, Devastator Squads ready for Flakk and Helfire, and Jump Pack Librarians for taste. I've been tweaking it here and there and don't have much luck, but FUN.
Blood Angels are pretty monobuild but you can do more fun things with Dark Angels and receive less beatings, and Deathwatch sorta work if you have CP and cover ready to rock. I'm sure when Space Wolves come out they'll be better than everyone else again just based on how the recent codices were since the first 5.
I'm currently running a 1500 list of pure infantry Ultras & G-man, I'm slowly looking into pushing the list to 2000pts. Do you guys recommended SM armor, an ally force, or just keep at it with Ultra infantry.
Brother Payne wrote: If you go the armour route, you need multiple different armoured threats, otherwise enemy AT will delete your token armour piece turn 1.
Allies is probably the most competitive route but it rly depends on what kind of holes your feel need filling in your list
I've found that as far as predators go, I park them out of LOS, or at least in cover turn 1 in case I am not going first. I'd rather take the movement to hit penalty than lose them before they fire. I usually pair them with a Chapter Master for ranged firepower.
Alex_85 wrote: In the Iron Hands list, that Dreadnought could be Venerable.
Unfortunately, as noted above, fnps don't stack. And they're a bit too expensive for their durability and a 6" move.
After a couple games with codex dreads, i've come to a sad conclusion that only Contemptors are good. Others are pretty mediocre - at least on foot. Still usable in certain lists, of course - especially ironclads. Haven't run them as pure shooters though as i think dreads are better off as mellee oriented platforms that deny enemy access to midboard and punch tough things to death in mellee.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I also wanted to write about an epic struggle vs necrons but i'm not sure if anyone's interested
Alex_85 wrote: In the Iron Hands list, that Dreadnought could be Venerable.
Unfortunately, as noted above, fnps don't stack. And they're a bit too expensive for their durability and a 6" move.
After a couple games with codex dreads, i've come to a sad conclusion that only Contemptors are good. Others are pretty mediocre - at least on foot. Still usable in certain lists, of course - especially ironclads. Haven't run them as pure shooters though as i think dreads are better off as mellee oriented platforms that deny enemy access to midboard and punch tough things to death in mellee.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I also wanted to write about an epic struggle vs necrons but i'm not sure if anyone's interested
godardc wrote: I really feel like the Space Marines codex is weaker than my friend's tyranids and necrons. What are you running these days to not loose ?
I have all 3 of these armies. I would say Nids are better than Crons which are better than marines, so your in an up hill battle at the moment.
Nids have a lot of good versatile units and can field a variety of types of list. best advice, Target priority. Kill GS first always, everytime, then Hive Guard, Then Flyrants, and finally whatever is left. Save the Neurothrope for last unless you are able to get something to ignore the Invul save by using a Libby (maybe with jump pack) to null zone it. Then focus it down. Most nid players pick the Neuro as the warlord.
Crons- have an issue with expensive point cost due to GW always pricing in Reanimation Protocols. Focus fire these guys 1 unit at a time. Again target priority. First is to kill the Destroyers, then Tesla Immortals, then wraiths. Wraiths 3++ have a high invul save so the same null zone trick as above is good with them. Not everyone takes wraiths though. you will also see Doomsday Arks which will shred you Armor units, plus they have quauntum shielding which makes it difficult to pop them with high D6 damage weapons. Have to find them with things that do lower damage. Scarabs can be FAST as hell, and fly, which means they get into your back line. Screen and spread out appropiately. Versus Tesla the best and most important thing is to have the -1 to hit shroud which means the 6's always drop to 5's thus, denying them the extra auto hits. This is vital. Kill all of one unit so RP doesn't come into effect.
For both armies Target priority is a must. Blow all your CP early if needed to make sure you drop the Genestealers (nids) and Destoryers (crons) first turn. Lastly, play the objectives. If its ITC pick good secondaries.
Sadly, Marines I don't think will ever be a top tier army, they already sell a lot of them because of the coolness factor, no need to make them a solid gaming choice.
Changing gears a little bit. Apologies if this has been discussed previously. Vindicate Assassins are pretty much everything that I want my Scout Snipers to be. Is anyone having success running two of these in a 2,000 pt army? I’ve just got a couple of them and want to run them soon.
I’m also getting a culluxis assassin but I’m not sure how to use it. It looks pretty durable. What experiences have others had. Is it still considered a competitive unit?
The culexis is good for shutting down enemy powers, and can be good at keeping powers like doom and jinx off of expensive units you can't afford to lose. It works pretty well with knights and Custodes for that reason. Just keep it away from enemy flamers.
The vindicare doesn't typically do enough damage to kill anything in one shot unless you get lucky and wound on a 6, then get lucky again with the damage. Plus line of sight is the easiest counter to them. These factors make it somewhat mediocre in general, though it is probably okay in match ups that rely on characters moving forward while hiding behind things (thousand sons smite spam, maybe?).
I don't know that either one has a ton of synergy with Marines, though.
I was wondering why not Aggressors? This one guy I know swears by them being the best thing since sliced cheese. Are they just not effective?
depends on what your facing really. they're a good coutner to hoard armies who wanna rush you with cheap bodies, like an Ork Boyz list. they're also really good with Raven Guard due to Strike from the shadows, but if you're not able to get them in close and keep them alive....
So yeah, they're not bad but situational. if you have a buddy who takes Orks they're amazing.
I was wondering why not Aggressors? This one guy I know swears by them being the best thing since sliced cheese. Are they just not effective?
depends on what your facing really. they're a good coutner to hoard armies who wanna rush you with cheap bodies, like an Ork Boyz list. they're also really good with Raven Guard due to Strike from the shadows, but if you're not able to get them in close and keep them alive....
So yeah, they're not bad but situational. if you have a buddy who takes Orks they're amazing.
Yeah I was told that Sternguard, command vets (which can all take plasma guns etc) are terrible in comparision to aggressors which I kind of disagree with.
I will post one of my lists It seems to work out fine.
Played 2 games of 600 points on 4x4 today. Usually I've been playing quite a few tacticals with a few squads of sternguard, lias issodon, a squad of vanguard vets and a chaplain dread and some other stuff. I'm gonna be honest I get trashed every time with that list. Today I thought I'd switch it up. Took an ironclad whith Chainfist, hurricane bolter, hk missiles, a heavy flamer and assault launchers. It shredded so much. It hosed down probably 15-20 t3 troops across both games and trashed their vehicle in cc on both match ups. I'm really sold on it, but perhaps more important is taking 10 intercessors instead of tacticals or veterans. It felt so good to have marines with some actual staying power rather than melting away at the first sign of trouble. I'm pretty sold on them too, although I know primaris get rubbished quite a lot.
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: Played 2 games of 600 points on 4x4 today. Usually I've been playing quite a few tacticals with a few squads of sternguard, lias issodon, a squad of vanguard vets and a chaplain dread and some other stuff. I'm gonna be honest I get trashed every time with that list. Today I thought I'd switch it up. Took an ironclad whith Chainfist, hurricane bolter, hk missiles, a heavy flamer and assault launchers. It shredded so much. It hosed down probably 15-20 t3 troops across both games and trashed their vehicle in cc on both match ups. I'm really sold on it, but perhaps more important is taking 10 intercessors instead of tacticals or veterans. It felt so good to have marines with some actual staying power rather than melting away at the first sign of trouble. I'm pretty sold on them too, although I know primaris get rubbished quite a lot.
Yeah 600 points is really small game though, building a tac list at that point level is borderline impossible for many armies, and some armies are barely an army.
No knights, no dawneagle dbags,
Most things equipped with d2 or d3 weapons would be a quarter to half if your points at that level.
Anything less than 1000 points can produce some very different results to the 1500 to 2000 points meta
Just to be clear as I'm sure someone will try and twist this later, I'm not saying don't play small games, they are great way to get new players involved. They just tend to have some odd things, especially if the board size is scaled aswell, most weapons will cover 90% of a 4x4 or 3x4 foot table.
I'm not saying don't play small games, they are great way to get new players involved. They just tend to have some odd things, especially if the board size is scaled aswell, most weapons will cover 90% of a 4x4 or 3x4 foot table.
Your comment didn't give me that impression. Instead it seemed more like you were saying folks are free to play small games, they just aren't free to talk about them here
Generally not a fan of RG, but RG Ironclads are pretty tough for their cost. -1 to hit outside of 12" with the ability to go to -2 for a turn and T8. They absorb more than their fair share of fire power. I've never been a fan of the Hurricane bolters though, the 4 damage on the chainfist is just too good and rerolling all 1's to hit really helps their CC. I don't bother with HK's anymore. The Ironclad is probably going to be slogging it up the board so they need to be advancing every turn that they don't have a solid chance of charging, if your worried about getting swarmed just give them a HF or 2.
Vilehydra wrote: I've never been a fan of the Hurricane bolters though
Why not? For 4 points it feels like worth much more than taking the DCCW, especially since you can spend a cp to make him a captain if you really need the rerolls of 1 to hit. If the board is only 4 across and you both deploy 12 up, or there's infiltrators there isn't much need to be advancing, you could probably get a turn two charge, and you have 6 bolters, which can pay for itself back many times over shooting away screening units.
Vilehydra wrote: I've never been a fan of the Hurricane bolters though
Why not? For 4 points it feels like worth much more than taking the DCCW, especially since you can spend a cp to make him a captain if you really need the rerolls of 1 to hit. If the board is only 4 across and you both deploy 12 up, or there's infiltrators there isn't much need to be advancing, you could probably get a turn two charge, and you have 6 bolters, which can pay for itself back many times over shooting away screening units.
At 12+ range to a target, the dread should really be advancing and smoking if it hasn't been used yet. At 8- range, the HF's will do better and act as insurance against getting by chaff units which make it better IMO despite being more expensive. That leaves a band of 8-12 inches where the hurricane wins out. The IC really wins when it charges big chunky units w/o CC invuln saves (such as a knight or predator) and the HB run counter to that purpose.
If we both deploy 24" away, the IC needs to advance to have a decent chance at a charge. Most likely the unit that the IC wants to charge is going to be moved away from the IC. The IC is going to want to advance every turn it doesn't have a chance of getting that charge off, which makes the HB run counter to what the IC is supposed to perform. The only position I could see the HB being useful is for counter-charging IC's to threaten assault armies. Because the enemy has to come to you, you may as well get a few extra bolter shots.
Whereas having the innate ability to reroll 1's to hit in CC instead of spending a CP (which you must do at the beginning of the phase before any other combats have taken place IIRC) can be a lifesaver.
True, but the HB gives it a 24 inch weapon for when it's not advancing. I dunno, it just feels like advancing every turn isn't entirely necessary. You can have an ironclad who is great against infantry at range and still crushes vehicles and monsters in CC. If you're relying on a ironclad to chase an ik or something around the board, that's surely not going to end well? They'll just outrun you our kill you. And when advancing straight up rather than side to side I'm still not convinced advancing is going to change that much for the turn two charge. I have a spare DCCW arm so I'll try it out and see what works.
Vilehydra wrote: I've never been a fan of the Hurricane bolters though
Why not? For 4 points it feels like worth much more than taking the DCCW, especially since you can spend a cp to make him a captain if you really need the rerolls of 1 to hit. If the board is only 4 across and you both deploy 12 up, or there's infiltrators there isn't much need to be advancing, you could probably get a turn two charge, and you have 6 bolters, which can pay for itself back many times over shooting away screening units.
At 12+ range to a target, the dread should really be advancing and smoking if it hasn't been used yet. At 8- range, the HF's will do better and act as insurance against getting by chaff units which make it better IMO despite being more expensive. That leaves a band of 8-12 inches where the hurricane wins out. The IC really wins when it charges big chunky units w/o CC invuln saves (such as a knight or predator) and the HB run counter to that purpose.
If we both deploy 24" away, the IC needs to advance to have a decent chance at a charge. Most likely the unit that the IC wants to charge is going to be moved away from the IC. The IC is going to want to advance every turn it doesn't have a chance of getting that charge off, which makes the HB run counter to what the IC is supposed to perform. The only position I could see the HB being useful is for counter-charging IC's to threaten assault armies. Because the enemy has to come to you, you may as well get a few extra bolter shots.
Whereas having the innate ability to reroll 1's to hit in CC instead of spending a CP (which you must do at the beginning of the phase before any other combats have taken place IIRC) can be a lifesaver.
If they both deploy 24" away, your Ironclad is never going to charge an Imperial Knight.
Contemptors might have that chance, and Relic Contemptors have an even better chance (no degrading movement is SUPER clutch I can tell ya that), but Ironclads strike me as an odd unit with no real role to fill.
Vilehydra wrote: I've never been a fan of the Hurricane bolters though
Why not? For 4 points it feels like worth much more than taking the DCCW, especially since you can spend a cp to make him a captain if you really need the rerolls of 1 to hit. If the board is only 4 across and you both deploy 12 up, or there's infiltrators there isn't much need to be advancing, you could probably get a turn two charge, and you have 6 bolters, which can pay for itself back many times over shooting away screening units.
At 12+ range to a target, the dread should really be advancing and smoking if it hasn't been used yet. At 8- range, the HF's will do better and act as insurance against getting by chaff units which make it better IMO despite being more expensive. That leaves a band of 8-12 inches where the hurricane wins out. The IC really wins when it charges big chunky units w/o CC invuln saves (such as a knight or predator) and the HB run counter to that purpose.
If we both deploy 24" away, the IC needs to advance to have a decent chance at a charge. Most likely the unit that the IC wants to charge is going to be moved away from the IC. The IC is going to want to advance every turn it doesn't have a chance of getting that charge off, which makes the HB run counter to what the IC is supposed to perform. The only position I could see the HB being useful is for counter-charging IC's to threaten assault armies. Because the enemy has to come to you, you may as well get a few extra bolter shots.
Whereas having the innate ability to reroll 1's to hit in CC instead of spending a CP (which you must do at the beginning of the phase before any other combats have taken place IIRC) can be a lifesaver.
If they both deploy 24" away, your Ironclad is never going to charge an Imperial Knight.
Contemptors might have that chance, and Relic Contemptors have an even better chance (no degrading movement is SUPER clutch I can tell ya that), but Ironclads strike me as an odd unit with no real role to fill.
There have been several games where my IC's have gotten into combat with knights. The knights need board control for objectives just as much as I do, and ICs threaten those knights in the middle.
The best role for the IC that I've seen is as a counter charge to big nasty charging units. String out a few screening units in front of the IC against a charge heavy army, let them hit the front row and on your turn counter assault with the ICs. The problem with this role, is that not all armies are going to have heavy charge components, and against those armies your IC now has to slog across the table to possibly be effective.
I just kind of wish all standard dreadnought chassis got 8" move instead of 6". Makes them much more likely to get that second turn assault.
After a couple games with ironclads and contemptors, i definitely prefer contemptors as speed, 5++, asscan shooting and a few extra wounds seem to be superior in most games to t8 and more mellee punch. Extra speed and 5++ are key. Especially for footslogging.
But when rule of 3 comes into play or when you plan to run a stormraven and have means of protecting the raven turn 1 like running Tigurius, ironclad can be really really good. For just 150 pts you get a cc monster-killer with extra shooting and mortal wounds on the charge to 'everything' around.
Another option might be to run regular dreads with gained invul saves. There are a few options out there.
Though it must be noted that like with most units people consider underwhelming, dreads can still be good enough to win even vs strong lists. But they require certain conditions to function properly. The more they overlap, the better dreads become:
Small or mid-sized games
Spam (get more dreads and armored stuff in the mix)
Ways to deal with ranged antitank like negating damage or killing it before it kills you
For example, my 1250 pt list with 5 codex dreads has been doing great so far because they're meeting 2 out of 3 those conditions. Oh, and i usually focus on scoring via denying your opponent ground. Dreads are pretty good at it. 2 batreps are out there.
koooaei wrote: After a couple games with ironclads and contemptors, i definitely prefer contemptors as speed, 5++, asscan shooting and a few extra wounds seem to be superior in most games to t8 and more mellee punch. Extra speed and 5++ are key. Especially for footslogging.
But when rule of 3 comes into play or when you plan to run a stormraven and have means of protecting the raven turn 1 like running Tigurius, ironclad can be really really good. For just 150 pts you get a cc monster-killer with extra shooting and mortal wounds on the charge to 'everything' around.
Another option might be to run regular dreads with gained invul saves. There are a few options out there.
Though it must be noted that like with most units people consider underwhelming, dreads can still be good enough to win even vs strong lists. But they require certain conditions to function properly. The more they overlap, the better dreads become:
Small or mid-sized games
Spam (get more dreads and armored stuff in the mix)
Ways to deal with ranged antitank like negating damage or killing it before it kills you
For example, my 1250 pt list with 5 codex dreads has been doing great so far because they're meeting 2 out of 3 those conditions. Oh, and i usually focus on scoring via denying your opponent ground. Dreads are pretty good at it. 2 batreps are out there.
You don't NEED 4 melee dreads though, especially when you have plenty of ways to avoid that restriction anyway. You have the Codex Contemptor and the FW Relic one, which is 6 right there. The codex one has the degrading movement but it still requires effort to off them or make them not a threat. After that just run the range options...
So, i'm thinking about going back to 40k Hard Mode and start building up a fun "kill this or you'll die" style list, but delivery options are questionable right now.
Has anyone had any recent games using Storm Eagles? Really tempted to try using a couple as suicide missiles, but, i know that the chances of 1 dying first turn if i put 10 terminators (super hard mode) inside of it go up to like 100%.
Hi there, I'm running a list which is mixed marines and imperial guard, and want advice on the marine part. This is for ITC tournaments. The big picture concept of this list is that the opponent's lascannons have nothing worth targeting (so they'll be targeting my marines and mortars).
The guard provide a huge number of lasguns and mortars, some autocannons, both deep striking and outflanking plasma guns, and 3 psykers, some of whom can smite effectively. And 17 extra command points.
The role of the marines is to provide accurate firepower, especially where needed against armies that have -1 to hit like Alaitoc or Alpha legion, and anti-tank.
My big question is: Raven Guard or Salamanders? Currently, I've been running them as Salamanders.
Salamanders: Since my opponent usually goes first (33 drops!), I have to deploy my devs out of sight. On their first turn, they hop up stairs and shoot. The captain, upgraded to chapter master, lets them reroll all their 1s and 2s to hit, and they can also reroll one 3 thanks to being Salamanders. The mortal wound stratagems do their thing.
Then they shoot again if an opponent kills them (more mortal wounds, probably), thanks to the ancient, and reroll all misses thanks to the chapter master.
The chapter master is a mini-custodes captain. At 123 points, he has 2/3 of their shooting ability, and between the salamander rerolls, captain rerolls and thunder hammer, he puts out quite a bit of damage when he needs to counter-charge.
If I switch to Raven Guard... *My devastators become harder to kill.
*You don't get Salamander rerolls anyway when the banner makes you shoot.
*No -1 to hit on the 38% of the time that I go first.
*I don't have to fear basilisks anymore.
*I often don't have to use my Salamander rerolls anyway when facing armies without -1 to hit, because of the chapter master and signum and mortal wound damage which bypasses the wound roll.
*Necrons don't get all those extra hits.
But...
*No Salamander rerolls.
*The chapter master especially loses hand-to-hand effectiveness; Salamander rerolls let him reroll a 2 to hit and a failed wound with his thunder hammer.
*When I go second (usually), I will end up regretting the command points I spent during deployment.
Salamanders is super redundant the moment a Captain gets near anyone. Raven Guard is vastly better for their survival, seeing as the squads are expensive.
I'm also considering dropping the apothecary. Just haven't figured out what to replace him with. Healing the captain after he takes a knight's missile is pretty rage-inducing.
Celerior wrote: Hi there, I'm running a list which is mixed marines and imperial guard, and want advice on the marine part. This is for ITC tournaments. The big picture concept of this list is that the opponent's lascannons have nothing worth targeting (so they'll be targeting my marines and mortars).
The guard provide a huge number of lasguns and mortars, some autocannons, both deep striking and outflanking plasma guns, and 3 psykers, some of whom can smite effectively. And 17 extra command points.
The role of the marines is to provide accurate firepower, especially where needed against armies that have -1 to hit like Alaitoc or Alpha legion, and anti-tank.
My big question is: Raven Guard or Salamanders? Currently, I've been running them as Salamanders.
Salamanders: Since my opponent usually goes first (33 drops!), I have to deploy my devs out of sight. On their first turn, they hop up stairs and shoot. The captain, upgraded to chapter master, lets them reroll all their 1s and 2s to hit, and they can also reroll one 3 thanks to being Salamanders. The mortal wound stratagems do their thing.
Then they shoot again if an opponent kills them (more mortal wounds, probably), thanks to the ancient, and reroll all misses thanks to the chapter master.
The chapter master is a mini-custodes captain. At 123 points, he has 2/3 of their shooting ability, and between the salamander rerolls, captain rerolls and thunder hammer, he puts out quite a bit of damage when he needs to counter-charge.
If I switch to Raven Guard... *My devastators become harder to kill.
*You don't get Salamander rerolls anyway when the banner makes you shoot.
*No -1 to hit on the 38% of the time that I go first.
*I don't have to fear basilisks anymore.
*I often don't have to use my Salamander rerolls anyway when facing armies without -1 to hit, because of the chapter master and signum and mortal wound damage which bypasses the wound roll.
*Necrons don't get all those extra hits.
But...
*No Salamander rerolls.
*The chapter master especially loses hand-to-hand effectiveness; Salamander rerolls let him reroll a 2 to hit and a failed wound with his thunder hammer.
*When I go second (usually), I will end up regretting the command points I spent during deployment.
So which way do you guys lean?
With the list you should go RG, you only get 3 important re-roll sets a turn with Salamander CT for this list.
Some suggestions,
If you can make room for it, I'd consider dropping the biker captain (121 pts) to make room for a basic kit captain and LT combo (150 pts) so you need to shift a few points elsewhere. I'm assuming your marine core is going to be highly static and shielded by guardsmen. This means that having a static reroll bubble works just fine to add good support to your firebase. The captain on a bike does NOT get to reroll 2's with the Salamander CT because he is using a -1 to hit weapon, and the reroll is applied before modifiers (Although re-rolling a TH wound for free can be a big game changer).
Salamanders work best with minimum squads carrying a few special weapons that are covered by some bodies. You have 4 heavy weapons, some of which have multiple shots, re-roll support from characters combined with a -1 to hit would be more beneficial here. I also say this as a Salamanders player.
I don't know how your ITC tournament runs, but where I play we interpret the rules to allow the players to choose relics and warlord traits after we have looked at each others lists.
If you do decide to go RG, and don't decide to swap out the captain for re-roll support:
Consider swapping him out for a jump pack captain and giving him the relic JP which allows advancing+charging and re-roll charge rolls, then give him the ignores OW warlord trait. This is most useful Vs. Tau/DA.
If your not concerned with OW fire, give him the Armor indomitus for that sweet 2+ and 3++ for a turn or the shield eternal to halve damage.
If you decide to stick with Salamanders and the Bike captain,
consider giving him the salamanders mantle to make him T6. Makes him much more survivable vs strength 5,6,10. If your going against Deldar, making him T6 is a pretty big deal because of Dissie Fire.
Vilehydra, you're right about the hits being only failed ones. Don't know why I thought it wasn't. Good catch. Thanks. So the benefit is about one lieutenant's worth for the Salamander tactics if I take the chapter master upgrade. You're right, that's not really worth it. Ravenguard it is.
So let's talk characters.
A lieutenant provides minimal benefit given the prevalence of invul saves and the few units that benefit. The mortal wound stratagems don't need to roll to wound, either. I'd rather outflank another Tallarn special weapon squad with 3 plasma guns, for less points.
The biker captain is 123 points (unless I'm wrong again?) because of the twin boltgun that comes with the bike plus my storm bolter. The chapter master is a counter-charge unit in most cases. His primary mission is boosting the devastators, except in extreme circumstances.
The jump pack captain loses the firepower, loses the +1T and +1W, loses 2" movement, saves about 4 points, and gains... the ability to charge flyers. Enemy flyers can avoid him anyway. I prefer the bike. Avoiding overwatch is nice, but then he can't take the shield eternal and if he needs to charge something I can always charge that target with a guard squad first to soak the overwatch.
I probably should pick up a storm shield, huh? Yes, ITCs I've gone to would let me decide about the shield eternal on a per game basis.
Should I drop the apothecary? Sometimes he brings back armorium cherubs, but if I drop him I can hand out a ton of plasma guns and boltguns to Cadian infantry squads.
Celerior wrote: Vilehydra, you're right about the hits being only failed ones. Don't know why I thought it wasn't. Good catch. Thanks. So the benefit is about one lieutenant's worth for the Salamander tactics if I take the chapter master upgrade. You're right, that's not really worth it. Ravenguard it is.
The jump pack captain loses the firepower, loses the +1T and +1W, loses 2" movement, saves about 4 points, and gains... the ability to charge flyers. Enemy flyers can avoid him anyway. I prefer the bike. Avoiding overwatch is nice, but then he can't take the shield eternal and if he needs to charge something I can always charge that target with a guard squad first to soak the overwatch.
I probably should pick up a storm shield, huh? Yes, ITCs I've gone to would let me decide about the shield eternal on a per game basis.
Sh
The JP captain gets -
- Deepstrike
- Fly (can ignore chaff screens if needed)
- May benefit from Sfts
- Diagonal/Horizontal Interactions
The ability to keep your captain off the board first turn can be invaluable. It can keep him alive (in the case of Shieldbreakers or sniping flyers) and it forces the opponent to screen.
A bikes effective move range can be cut down by chaff, flyers can simply move over chaff which could yield significant benefits in both the movement and charge phase.
StfS is pretty risky, but some matchups it could be worth it. Combined with the Ravens fury JP you could get off some juicy charges
Because deepstrike range is measured diagonally, but move range for a Fly unit ignores vertical distances you can deepstrike and get some >9" charges as well.
Basically it comes down to the fact that the JP Cap is significantly more flexible than a biker Cap. There are just more positional options with the JP than the bike, but it is a tradeoff for the bikes durability. I personally value the flexibility more than the tankiness but that is also a personal preference.
As per the LT, I'd recommend running one. Those plasma guns (which only cost 63 points?) are probably going to get one round off and then promptly die. The LT is going to be giving advantages the entire game as long as your dev's don't get mulched. Your using the SM to hit those pesky -1/-2 units. Which means that after you hit, your going to want as many of those hits to convert to wounds, sure you have Hellfire and flakk which are great strategems, but your also running 6 Lascannons 2 Plascannons, and One HB that can't use hellfire. Rerolling 1's to wound every turn on weapons that generally wound on 3+ goes a decent way in ensuring those weapons do damage when they hit.
My big question is: Raven Guard or Salamanders?Currently, I've been running them as Salamanders.
Hey. Question on this, as I'm presented with a slightly similar issue... When people say, 'will I run them as x or y', what do they mean exactly. Surely if they're painted one way or another, then that's what they are, no? Is it considered acceptable to run them with different rules?
I ask because, I'm about to restart the hobby after a long, long time away. I have a bundle of boxes of marines, and I like the red scorpion paint job. I was a bit inspired by the guy who writes the chucking monkeys blog. However, I'll be trying to compete against some seriously min maxing friends, and I'm nervous about being too hamstrung by the state marines are in.
Basically, to get to the point, how acceptable is it to paint them as red scorpions and use them as Raven guard (successors or whatever)?
RAW you can play them as whatever chapter you want (regardless of the paint job) as long as you can tell different detachments apart (if you are running some as RG and some as UM they shouldn't be the same part).
Some parts of the community think that if they are from an identifiable chapter based on their paint job then they should stick with that paint job (I think games workshop has this rule for one of their tournaments but it has sparked a good deal of controversy).
On the fringes are custom paint jobs. Some people say you can use whatever rules you want, others are saying you need to play them as successor (which precludes you from using chapter specific characters).
I've shown up with my black templar paint job and used them as ultra marines which is technically legal but you will get side-eye from the more fluff minded characters (especially if you beat them...)
At this point I'm painting MY models what-ever color I want to and screw whoever has a problem with it and until they can point to me in the rules where I have to paint MY miniatures a certain way then screw them. At least in a competitive setting, for more casual games I'll run them as whatever the fluff or competitive level dictates.
Celerior wrote: Vilehydra, you're right about the hits being only failed ones. Don't know why I thought it wasn't. Good catch. Thanks. So the benefit is about one lieutenant's worth for the Salamander tactics if I take the chapter master upgrade. You're right, that's not really worth it. Ravenguard it is.
The jump pack captain loses the firepower, loses the +1T and +1W, loses 2" movement, saves about 4 points, and gains... the ability to charge flyers. Enemy flyers can avoid him anyway. I prefer the bike. Avoiding overwatch is nice, but then he can't take the shield eternal and if he needs to charge something I can always charge that target with a guard squad first to soak the overwatch.
I probably should pick up a storm shield, huh? Yes, ITCs I've gone to would let me decide about the shield eternal on a per game basis.
Sh
The JP captain gets -
- Deepstrike
- Fly (can ignore chaff screens if needed)
- May benefit from Sfts
- Diagonal/Horizontal Interactions
The ability to keep your captain off the board first turn can be invaluable. It can keep him alive (in the case of Shieldbreakers or sniping flyers) and it forces the opponent to screen.
A bikes effective move range can be cut down by chaff, flyers can simply move over chaff which could yield significant benefits in both the movement and charge phase.
StfS is pretty risky, but some matchups it could be worth it. Combined with the Ravens fury JP you could get off some juicy charges
Because deepstrike range is measured diagonally, but move range for a Fly unit ignores vertical distances you can deepstrike and get some >9" charges as well.
Basically it comes down to the fact that the JP Cap is significantly more flexible than a biker Cap. There are just more positional options with the JP than the bike, but it is a tradeoff for the bikes durability. I personally value the flexibility more than the tankiness but that is also a personal preference.
As per the LT, I'd recommend running one. Those plasma guns (which only cost 63 points?) are probably going to get one round off and then promptly die. The LT is going to be giving advantages the entire game as long as your dev's don't get mulched. Your using the SM to hit those pesky -1/-2 units. Which means that after you hit, your going to want as many of those hits to convert to wounds, sure you have Hellfire and flakk which are great strategems, but your also running 6 Lascannons 2 Plascannons, and One HB that can't use hellfire. Rerolling 1's to wound every turn on weapons that generally wound on 3+ goes a decent way in ensuring those weapons do damage when they hit.
One thing to keep in mind is using a Biker Captain AS a chaff cleaner. Storm Bolter with the Combi-Bolter, Teeth of Terra. Bam, done.
Celerior wrote: Vilehydra, you're right about the hits being only failed ones. Don't know why I thought it wasn't. Good catch. Thanks. So the benefit is about one lieutenant's worth for the Salamander tactics if I take the chapter master upgrade. You're right, that's not really worth it. Ravenguard it is.
The jump pack captain loses the firepower, loses the +1T and +1W, loses 2" movement, saves about 4 points, and gains... the ability to charge flyers. Enemy flyers can avoid him anyway. I prefer the bike. Avoiding overwatch is nice, but then he can't take the shield eternal and if he needs to charge something I can always charge that target with a guard squad first to soak the overwatch.
I probably should pick up a storm shield, huh? Yes, ITCs I've gone to would let me decide about the shield eternal on a per game basis.
Sh
The JP captain gets -
- Deepstrike
- Fly (can ignore chaff screens if needed)
- May benefit from Sfts
- Diagonal/Horizontal Interactions
The ability to keep your captain off the board first turn can be invaluable. It can keep him alive (in the case of Shieldbreakers or sniping flyers) and it forces the opponent to screen.
A bikes effective move range can be cut down by chaff, flyers can simply move over chaff which could yield significant benefits in both the movement and charge phase.
StfS is pretty risky, but some matchups it could be worth it. Combined with the Ravens fury JP you could get off some juicy charges
Because deepstrike range is measured diagonally, but move range for a Fly unit ignores vertical distances you can deepstrike and get some >9" charges as well.
Basically it comes down to the fact that the JP Cap is significantly more flexible than a biker Cap. There are just more positional options with the JP than the bike, but it is a tradeoff for the bikes durability. I personally value the flexibility more than the tankiness but that is also a personal preference.
As per the LT, I'd recommend running one. Those plasma guns (which only cost 63 points?) are probably going to get one round off and then promptly die. The LT is going to be giving advantages the entire game as long as your dev's don't get mulched. Your using the SM to hit those pesky -1/-2 units. Which means that after you hit, your going to want as many of those hits to convert to wounds, sure you have Hellfire and flakk which are great strategems, but your also running 6 Lascannons 2 Plascannons, and One HB that can't use hellfire. Rerolling 1's to wound every turn on weapons that generally wound on 3+ goes a decent way in ensuring those weapons do damage when they hit.
One thing to keep in mind is using a Biker Captain AS a chaff cleaner. Storm Bolter with the Combi-Bolter, Teeth of Terra. Bam, done.
Fair point, although it seems like that list has plenty of chaff clearing.
Your point also gave me an idea, give the biker a TH and chainsword. If there is a bunch of chaff that needs clearing, make it the Teeth of Terra. Then give him the +1 attack when charging WL trait. That becomes 5 TH attacks and 1d3 ToT attacks which can be doubled using the fight again strategem. That's going to scare almost any big models while also allowing him to chunk big parts of chaff. Don't know how effective it would be though.
Just FYI, afaik Salamanders is still re-roll failed hits/wounds not any, so it wouldn't allow you to re-roll any hits that the Chapter Master doesn't already allow you to (so no re-rolling that 3 for the devastators that moved). The benefit of Salamanders in this case would be limited to 1 wound re-roll per unit and a little deployment flexibility allowing you to deploy or move outside the CM bubble
Brother Payne wrote: Just FYI, afaik Salamanders is still re-roll failed hits/wounds not any, so it wouldn't allow you to re-roll any hits that the Chapter Master doesn't already allow you to (so no re-rolling that 3 for the devastators that moved). The benefit of Salamanders in this case would be limited to 1 wound re-roll per unit and a little deployment flexibility allowing you to deploy or move outside the CM bubble
Which is already lackluster to begin with, so when you add the lame relic, Strategem, and Warlord trait, you got essentially a bad army.
Salamanders is super redundant the moment a Captain gets near anyone. Raven Guard is vastly better for their survival, seeing as the squads are expensive.
Space marines do most their damage at 12" range though - so -1 to hit doesn't help them too much.
Salamanders is super redundant the moment a Captain gets near anyone. Raven Guard is vastly better for their survival, seeing as the squads are expensive.
Space marines do most their damage at 12" range though - so -1 to hit doesn't help them too much.
Only if the opponent's whole army is there sure. Those odds are pretty low so taking the better Chapter Tactic and Stratagem is a no-brainer.
Seriously with this codex there's no room for talking about "overrated" just because someone wants to look cool and different. Salamanders are just bad. We need to get over that.
I agree. Their CT is a very solid one that has it's uses for sure. The only problem with them is that they are over shadowed by the broken -1 to hit CT (That I wish was just removed and replaced as it's always an auto take outside of very specific builds) and Guiliman armies.
I agree. Their CT is a very solid one that has it's uses for sure. The only problem with them is that they are over shadowed by the broken -1 to hit CT (That I wish was just removed and replaced as it's always an auto take outside of very specific builds) and Guiliman armies.
It really doesn't. It doesn't increase damage output by a lot for an army already lacking in the offense department, whereas Raven Guard and at least Iron Hands help in the durability department more where Marines lack. Shame Iron Hands have a bad Warlord Trait and Strategem. Their relic isn't TERRIBLE at least?
I agree. Their CT is a very solid one that has it's uses for sure. The only problem with them is that they are over shadowed by the broken -1 to hit CT (That I wish was just removed and replaced as it's always an auto take outside of very specific builds) and Guiliman armies.
It really doesn't. It doesn't increase damage output by a lot for an army already lacking in the offense department, whereas Raven Guard and at least Iron Hands help in the durability department more where Marines lack. Shame Iron Hands have a bad Warlord Trait and Strategem. Their relic isn't TERRIBLE at least?
Getting re-rolls for an important weapon for every unit + the synergy it has with a banner ancient is a solid chapter tactic especially when you compare it to the majority of chapter tactics found in most armies. It's a better one that is over shadowed by ones that are auto picks. In my opinion the Salamander CT is the first amongst non-competitive options. It's not a tournament winning CT, but it's not a bad one either. It's solid, but not top tier.
I think they have some top tier options like aggressors murdering every screen in existence T1 which has it's place. I do not think they are tip top tier competitive however because the units they are drawing from are bad and they don't have Guiliman to buff them up to acceptable levels and even he is losing power as times goes on. I would still say for certain though the RG outperform Salamanders at a higher end level of play, but neither will be winning the LVO.
Outside Roboute Castle, that's all the army has going for it yes.
1. Helps against gunline armies, which are the most popular
2. Have a Strategem that helps with several weaknesses of the Marine army in general
3. The Relic is okay-ish. Warlord trait sucks though outside the one Knight with the Flamer.
The only Chapter Tactic I consider worth anything outside them is Imperial Fists due to them being a hard counter towards Jormung and Dal'yth armies.
I do not think RG are top tier - not even close TBH. Deathwatch however is really good now and running two battalions with BA for some scouts and smash captains is realy good.
Primark G wrote: I do not think RG are top tier - not even close TBH. Deathwatch however is really good now and running two battalions with BA for some scouts and smash captains is realy good.
Nothing about the Vanilla codex is top tier now. If you want to compete, though, your choices are Roboute castle or Raven Guard. Simple as that.
Salamanders trait would be good if normal Marines were worth taking, and single shot special and heavy weapons were worth their points costs. Maybe someday they will be.
Free heavy or special for 5 man squads, one of each for 10 man squads and tacs and salies would be in a much better place.
Or just change rowboats ability to allow mixed chapter detachments to retain their chapter rules (he wrote the damned codex!) re-roll 1's w/in 12" for all astartes and drop his points back to his original cost and we've got a winner.
A couple points adjustments and marines wouldn't be the complete dumpster fire that they are now.
bananathug wrote: Free heavy or special for 5 man squads, one of each for 10 man squads and tacs and salies would be in a much better place.
Or just change rowboats ability to allow mixed chapter detachments to retain their chapter rules (he wrote the damned codex!) re-roll 1's w/in 12" for all astartes and drop his points back to his original cost and we've got a winner.
A couple points adjustments and marines wouldn't be the complete dumpster fire that they are now.
but if they aren't a bigger dumpster fire than primaris marines then no-one will buy and play primaris, oh wait they arn't exactlly storming the competitive lists anyway because NO one is taking a dumpster fire up against Aldari Cheese with a hope of winning.
Salamanders require you to build your list differently. If you just doing gunline shooting you aren't going to gain much benefit from the CT because your just going to be layering in the captain and LT.
Salamander CT allows for positional flexibility, build for it. Own the board.
I've also found that Salamander CT is most effective for squads of two high damage single shot weapons.
I've won my last 9/9 games using the Salamander CT and MSU/Decentralized units
Vilehydra wrote: Salamanders require you to build your list differently. If you just doing gunline shooting you aren't going to gain much benefit from the CT because your just going to be layering in the captain and LT.
Salamander CT allows for positional flexibility, build for it. Own the board.
I've also found that Salamander CT is most effective for squads of two high damage single shot weapons.
I've won my last 9/9 games using the Salamander CT and MSU/Decentralized units
If you're going to play salanders, that's the way to do it. Melta, Las, and plasma weapons become much more effective with the salander tactics, and you don't need HQs around like you would with other chapters. It makes things like bikes and attack bikes much better, and even makes units coming down it drop pods in 2x5 man squads almost decent.
If they fixed the marine cost to durability ratio, made Las and melta a bit better, and reduced the cost of transports, salanders tactics would be pretty good as the offensive and flexible cheapert that doesn't need HQs as much. It's just not currently enough to carry them past their marine-ness in a competitive 8th edition environment.
Yeah salamanders are for MSU squads and dreadnoughts. Primaris guys don't have specialists in their squads so they gain an awful lot less, though still > nothing.
Part of the issue is a bit of a lack of other good HQ choices, besides chapter masters and lieutenants. If they existed, then Salamanders would provide a great opportunity to take them. Librarians are ok but nothing much else works. I guess you could look into unusual stuff like chaplain dreadnoughts and rhino primaris.
One way to look at marine chapter tactics is that they arguably give you quite a lot of freedom. None are spectacular, so there are no really bad options either. I've run a Crimson Fist Primaris force at a load of tournaments and been able to compete with just about everything. The CT isn't great but it's far from useless, while a Primaris chapter master with the fist of vengeance relic is a fantastic HQ for his price. The army has high-tier firepower and doesn't tend to crumble in cc, and I've still got hope for the list if the next chapter approved helps it out a bit.
Page 141 – Primaris Captain, Wargear Options Change the second bullet point to read: ‘This model may take a power sword, or replace its master-crafted auto bolt rifle and bolt pistol with a power fist and a plasma pistol.’
This is what the “Store Birthday” primaris captain is armed with. It’s slightly annoying to have to pay for a plasma pistol as well (though he hasn’t ever yet blown himself up... yet) but well worth it for the Fist of Vengeance. He’s got 5 attacks base, potentially up to 7 with might of heroes and the warlord trait that gives +1A on the charge. Proc Honour the Chapter (or only in death…) and things tend to die in a big way, especially if the Librarian has managed to cast Null Zone.
Most of the time of course he is just there to buff my shooty units, and that’s really fine. He only costs 106 points, after all. But when needed he can pop out and knock over a pesky knight or something. He’s not quite up there with BA smash captains, but not all that much behind, and he’s cheaper. Paired with either a Librarian or Lieutenant (or both) he does consistent high damage. For best results, heroically intervene into a unit of shining spears that didn’t declare him as a target of their charge.
Page 141 – Primaris Captain, Wargear Options Change the second bullet point to read: ‘This model may take a power sword, or replace its master-crafted auto bolt rifle and bolt pistol with a power fist and a plasma pistol.’
This is what the “Store Birthday” primaris captain is armed with. It’s slightly annoying to have to pay for a plasma pistol as well (though he hasn’t ever yet blown himself up... yet) but well worth it for the Fist of Vengeance. He’s got 5 attacks base, potentially up to 7 with might of heroes and the warlord trait that gives +1A on the charge. Proc Honour the Chapter (or only in death…) and things tend to die in a big way, especially if the Librarian has managed to cast Null Zone.
Most of the time of course he is just there to buff my shooty units, and that’s really fine. He only costs 106 points, after all. But when needed he can pop out and knock over a pesky knight or something. He’s not quite up there with BA smash captains, but not all that much behind, and he’s cheaper. Paired with either a Librarian or Lieutenant (or both) he does consistent high damage. For best results, heroically intervene into a unit of shining spears that didn’t declare him as a target of their charge.
Huh... well there you go. My apologies, must've skipped over that one. In that case then yeah, I can see the fist relic on him being decent
No worries, it’s a pretty obscure one. One of the major problems for Primaris marines (at least in the vanilla codex) is that they don’t get access to most of the relics – which is why crimson fists become an interesting exception. If there was a model with a power axe instead then I’d probably be advocating Iron Hands... though I wouldn’t then be able to have my captain wave an ork’s head around in his fist.
It’s kind of mad that even BAs take ordinary captains for their smash captains, because Primaris ones hit so much less hard with their absent weapon options. I’ll be interested to see whether anything changes in the space puppy book – it looks like there’s a battle leader with a frost axe at least.
Hi just a quick question. I play UM and usually play against Tau DG and other marines. I’ve heard conflicting ideas about whether to run units as larger full squads or lots of smaller units. Was just wondering what people thought. Even if it was a mixture of both depending on the opposition
Vilehydra wrote: Salamanders require you to build your list differently. If you just doing gunline shooting you aren't going to gain much benefit from the CT because your just going to be layering in the captain and LT.
Salamander CT allows for positional flexibility, build for it. Own the board.
I've also found that Salamander CT is most effective for squads of two high damage single shot weapons.
I've won my last 9/9 games using the Salamander CT and MSU/Decentralized units
With Salamander CTs, multi-meltas suddenly become a decent dreadnought option, and hunter-killer missiles are less of a waste.
Hunter Killers are mostly available on units that don't actually benefit being Salamanders. So not sure how that's a selling point.
Also they don't make Multi-Meltas good because they are a bad weapon in general. 27 points for 1 shot and a -1 on the move, which most Dreads are doing.
Large units are good for 2 reasons. 1) More models being buffed for targetted abilities and 2) More protection (i.e. Devastators). The biggest downside to large units would be a weakness to morale and less chance of getting more CP. UM at least reduce the risk of the former.
Ablative wounds for dev squads are critical. Not only does it add extra wounds before you have to start reducing effectiveness, but it also can mindgame the player into shooting other power armor squads because they have to chew through extra bodies before getting to the good stuff. Especially if the devs are in cover (which they should be) and the other less valuable squad isn't.
When I run Vanilla Chapters I go RG too, so those extra ablative wounds, in cover, with a -1 to hit can cause some good mind games if you give PSA's "Just wanted to remind you these guys have a lot of defensive ability. I hate it when I forget stuff like that."
Thanks that’s helped quite a bit. Just to add a little more depth I was wondering about Primaris units and deep striking troops, more the power armoured ones than terminators. I would assume that both would be better as MSU but with some Primaris I’m not sure
I tend to run my primaris guys as msu. There are a few situations where that’s not the best option, like say if you’re filling a repulsor with two characters and four aggressors.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Hunter Killers are mostly available on units that don't actually benefit being Salamanders. So not sure how that's a selling point.
Also they don't make Multi-Meltas good because they are a bad weapon in general. 27 points for 1 shot and a -1 on the move, which most Dreads are doing.
ironclad dreadnoughts can take two HK missiles. And yeah, MMs aren't good with SLCTs, just decent
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Hunter Killers are mostly available on units that don't actually benefit being Salamanders. So not sure how that's a selling point.
Also they don't make Multi-Meltas good because they are a bad weapon in general. 27 points for 1 shot and a -1 on the move, which most Dreads are doing.
ironclad dreadnoughts can take two HK missiles. And yeah, MMs aren't good with SLCTs, just decent
In general MSU are the best for Primaris outside a few fringe cases. (If you are using a Rhino Primaris to buff a unit of Hellblasters for instance, or an Auspex Scan Stratagem to nail a DS unit). Only ones I really consider are Hellblasters for above reasons, or Hellblasters and Aggressors if you are using Strike from the Shadows to get them in a better position. Otherwise I take MSU when I am running Codex: SM.
Deepstrikers tend to be somewhat lackluster for Marines. Vanguard Vets are passable. Sternguard in a pod can do the job, albeit expensively. You can stick 8 Heavy Weapons or 10 Special weapons in a pod depending on what units you are putting in, and they will do some damage, they just cost a lot. Now if you are willing to allie in other kinds of marines the options open up a bit. Blood Angels and Deathwatch have some great deep strikers. Even Space Wolves can throw some nasty stuff in too so it depends on what you're looking for.
As a BA player myself it is not worth to run them with other space marines chapters unless you are fielding the AM batallion. The smash captain burns tons of CP. I think it is much better to run a ravenguard army and then deep strike some nasty deathwatch marines (10 hellblasters of 10 veterans with stormbolter are the best choices in my opinion) who can really lay down the pain without burning too may CP's.
I am toying around with a BA Battalion and a DW Battalion right now... I have seen other people succeed with t but I haven't tried it myself yet.
I also can say that RG with DW is pretty good. I have done that myself and it does fairly well. I use RG Devastators and a big unit of RG Aggressors then put Intercessors in for the DW with a big DS blob of Hellblasters (or two) and a big unit of Vets with Storm Bolters
Whenever anyone talks about C:SM they said it is bad unless you run a Guilliman gun-line. Can a Guilliman gun-line be run at 1500? I am trying to run one and I just feel like I don't have enough threats sinking 400pts into the G-man.
Sonminiser wrote: Whenever anyone talks about C:SM they said it is bad unless you run a Guilliman gun-line. Can a Guilliman gun-line be run at 1500? I am trying to run one and I just feel like I don't have enough threats sinking 400pts into the G-man.
Not at post double nerf points.
He is overcosted like crazy now and needs the full 1600 points of the rest of the list to be optimised to be viable.
Yeah the Guilliman thing is over. It only worked at the start because things like razorbacks and fire raptors were undercosted. That's not the case any more.
Personally I don't think Guilliman's rules work. A Primarch should be charging around chopping things up with the Emperor's sword, not playing babysitter to a bunch of parked vehicles. They should have rewritten him, not raised his points.
Now there are a bunch of units that are too expensive to use without him, because otherwise they are too efficient to use with him. He's arguably one of the things that's dragging the codex down as a result.
Mandragola wrote: Yeah the Guilliman thing is over. It only worked at the start because things like razorbacks and fire raptors were undercosted. That's not the case any more.
Personally I don't think Guilliman's rules work. A Primarch should be charging around chopping things up with the Emperor's sword, not playing babysitter to a bunch of parked vehicles. They should have rewritten him, not raised his points.
Now there are a bunch of units that are too expensive to use without him, because otherwise they are too efficient to use with him. He's arguably one of the things that's dragging the codex down as a result.
He definitely is. All they really need to do is remove the reroll wounds ability and that would go a long way towards fixing things.
Mandragola wrote: Yeah the Guilliman thing is over. It only worked at the start because things like razorbacks and fire raptors were undercosted. That's not the case any more.
Personally I don't think Guilliman's rules work. A Primarch should be charging around chopping things up with the Emperor's sword, not playing babysitter to a bunch of parked vehicles. They should have rewritten him, not raised his points.
Now there are a bunch of units that are too expensive to use without him, because otherwise they are too efficient to use with him. He's arguably one of the things that's dragging the codex down as a result.
except Gulliman is famous as a general and tactitican not as a warrior.
Interesting thought I had about Gulliman for a rule change.
Master of the Codex: Choose one unit within 12" of Gulliman, that unit may reroll all failed hits and rolls for that unit. He may spend a command point to choose an additional unit and 2 more CP to choose a third.
Tones down buffing literally everything around him. Just an idea that popped into my head. Makes him feel more commanderly.
I think currently Guilliman is best pair up with 2 double Stormcannon Levithans. These three models alone costs over 1000pts sure, but they have awesome firepower. 20 shots from each Dread, BS2 (so hit on 3s on the move) Str7 2dmg rerolls to hit and wound is nothing to look down to, it is the fire power closed to IK Crusader Knight. And being T8 2+/4++ is almost the same level of defence to an IK. The only problem is it has a threat range of only 32", and have to take around 190pts minimum tax (2 naked Devastator Squad to fullfil the requirement of "relic" and one Techmarine HQ).
Vilehydra wrote: Interesting thought I had about Gulliman for a rule change.
Master of the Codex: Choose one unit within 12" of Gulliman, that unit may reroll all failed hits and rolls for that unit. He may spend a command point to choose an additional unit and 2 more CP to choose a third.
Tones down buffing literally everything around him. Just an idea that popped into my head. Makes him feel more commanderly.
i think you’re onto something here. I’d like to see something like this for all buffing HQs, not just Guilliman. The trouble with auras is that they encourage you to blob up as much as possible to maximise the bonus, and that’s boring.
I much prefer things like IG orders where you get officers handing out buffs to units. In theory these buffs could be as significant as what Guilliman does, if not more so better commanders might be able to give out more orders.
Overall I think this kind of system could work a lot better than the current thing of having auras, and maybe it could replace some stratagems too.
Id much prefer a larger aura that has useful but not super powerful buffs. His current 12" aura is actually quite good for what it does (re-rolls of 1 to hit and +1 to advance and charge rolls). Id be fine reducing him by 100 points and removing the ultramarine aura entirely.
jcd386 wrote: Id much prefer a larger aura that has useful but not super powerful buffs. His current 12" aura is actually quite good for what it does (re-rolls of 1 to hit and +1 to advance and charge rolls). Id be fine reducing him by 100 points and removing the ultramarine aura entirely.
He is a Primarch though so he should atleast provide the equivelent buff as a Chaptor Master, even giving him the LT's buff wouldn't be broken, but yes his reroll all failed wounds is totally unbalanceable.
jcd386 wrote: Id much prefer a larger aura that has useful but not super powerful buffs. His current 12" aura is actually quite good for what it does (re-rolls of 1 to hit and +1 to advance and charge rolls). Id be fine reducing him by 100 points and removing the ultramarine aura entirely.
He is a Primarch though so he should atleast provide the equivelent buff as a Chaptor Master, even giving him the LT's buff wouldn't be broken, but yes his reroll all failed wounds is totally unbalanceable.
I agree, but I don't love that he pretty much removes the need for chapter masters and LTs etc. I think ideally he'd work well along side them and provide some other buff or special ability.
Agreed.
Trust me as a Necron player...bubble buffs are FAR better than a unit by unit buff like MWBD.
Change G-Man to be reroll all hits, and reroll 1s to wound. Then you have some measure of balance. The guy is the best general of the imperium, and the Chaos Primarchs will still eat him for breakfast, so I wouldn't sweat his combat stats.
iGuy91 wrote: Agreed.
Trust me as a Necron player...bubble buffs are FAR better than a unit by unit buff like MWBD.
Change G-Man to be reroll all hits, and reroll 1s to wound. Then you have some measure of balance. The guy is the best general of the imperium, and the Chaos Primarchs will still eat him for breakfast, so I wouldn't sweat his combat stats.
Okay so I have a tournament coming, and only my SM are 100% wysiwyg. However, I have no clue at all of what is bad and what is worse anymore, I haven't played them for months, and all I see when I try to make a new 1500pts list is a big amount of garbage...
I thought about 3 scouts squads, 1 biker scout squad, probably a thunderfire, its stratagem is golden against genestealers and quick foes, but then...
Unfortunately, I have several armored units, such as dreadnoughts, predators, rhinos, flyers... All less than useful I could play a full armoured list, totally not meta, maybe surprising my opponents, but SM vehicles simply aren't good, so it would really be all or nothing
I used to play vv, but they were never great and now they have been nerfed, I don't think I want them into my tournament list
How would you go to a tournament with SM, without primaris (I have none) ?
iGuy91 wrote: Agreed.
Trust me as a Necron player...bubble buffs are FAR better than a unit by unit buff like MWBD.
Change G-Man to be reroll all hits, and reroll 1s to wound. Then you have some measure of balance. The guy is the best general of the imperium, and the Chaos Primarchs will still eat him for breakfast, so I wouldn't sweat his combat stats.
Well duh obviously it's better. Problem being a) it leads to gunline parking lot armies which isn't that interesting b) makes balancing him lot harder. If you don't factor his rerolls to other units they will easily end up underpriced. If yes they will be ovepriced with him. And if you up his price...well how much stuff he will be buffing? Impossible to tell, impossible to assign fair value.
X unit buffing is obviously less powerful but much more easier to balance so that he's less under/overpriced and other units can be balanced so that you aren't screwed by NOT having Guilliman and allows playing Guillimann without parking lot bunched up gunline.
What else would you run? It's still the most powerful Chapter Tactic by a long shot.
If nothing else, the current situation of the Codex is excellent ammunition to bring out every time someone whines about how unfair it is that Marines are such Special Snowflakes that they always get great rules for everything. That's something, I guess.
I actually think IF are pretty solid. It is just a trait I don't want to use because it leads to duller games. This game is not improved by the terrain mattering even less...
godardc wrote: Okay so I have a tournament coming, and only my SM are 100% wysiwyg.
However, I have no clue at all of what is bad and what is worse anymore, I haven't played them for months, and all I see when I try to make a new 1500pts list is a big amount of garbage...
I thought about 3 scouts squads, 1 biker scout squad, probably a thunderfire, its stratagem is golden against genestealers and quick foes, but then...
Unfortunately, I have several armored units, such as dreadnoughts, predators, rhinos, flyers...
All less than useful
I could play a full armoured list, totally not meta, maybe surprising my opponents, but SM vehicles simply aren't good, so it would really be all or nothing
I used to play vv, but they were never great and now they have been nerfed, I don't think I want them into my tournament list
How would you go to a tournament with SM, without primaris (I have none) ?
Right now I think the best way yo run mono marines is the same way reece did picking up the best unit's in the codex and trying to build a viable army based upon those units.
Bobby G, scouts, scout bikes, some more buffing HQ's and then thr required units to cover the weaknesses of the list as best as possible while not deviating too far from the defensive stats of scouts. Ie devistators etc.
Crimson wrote: I actually think IF are pretty solid. It is just a trait I don't want to use because it leads to duller games. This game is not improved by the terrain mattering even less...
Terrain is an if-come-maybe. Don't count it to balance anything.
Crimson wrote: I actually think IF are pretty solid. It is just a trait I don't want to use because it leads to duller games. This game is not improved by the terrain mattering even less...
Terrain is an if-come-maybe. Don't count it to balance anything.
It was not about balance it was about fun. I want the terrain to matter, with IF it matters less.
Aggressors get hit hard by enemy being able to get +1 to saves without any ap on their attacks.
There's nothing in the marine dex that wants to get into CQC with screens.
Can't get hellblasters into double tap range. Everything else in the dex "works" from 9" further back.
[rant]
I've been screaming that the marine dex would be trash tier once other dexes came out ever since I first saw the guard dex. It has come true. Gulliman can make the army work against some enemies but without any competent melee we have no answer for knights and thus are pretty much invalidated as an army.
Unless you run something like Reece's MW fishing army (sniper scouts, mw abusing devs, apothecary and ancient) and get lucky with fishing for those mortals (and your apothecary/ancient rolls) we are dead in the water. Dissie cannons, plasma, cawls wrath and the host of other ap 2d weapons has killed primaris dead.
We can't build to both deal with knights and hordes because our weapons are too inefficient and our units are not resilient enough.
Of course we can win some games when luck is on our side our by out-playing your opponent but against a general with like skill level and an optimized list that isn't marines we are at a major disadvantage. We have no plus matchups and don't have a phase where we are favored. Anything in our dex that does anything can be done better/cheaper by another imperial army.
Our only shtick is Gman and it is so easy to kill the troops he is buffing that you better hope you go first. The best units in our book are not even marines (scouts) or are FW (leviathan dread).
Tacs - trash
scouts - good. even better now that they are among the few that can deploy outside of your zone.
Dreads - trash (outside of leviathan and maybe relic conteptors)
Termies - trash
Cents - trash is too kind
flyers - not quite trash but space wolves and DA flyers are so much better and let's not even talk about eldar
Land raiders - trash
repulsors - mostly trash. No invlun and knight/anti-knight meta hurts these things badly. I guess if you run 2-3 of them with gman you can do well.
Rhinos - trash
drop pods - trash
razorbacks - not quite trash but really close
primaris - trash. Too much ap multi wound weapons out there.
characters - mostly trash
chapter tactics - raven guard/salies aren't trash, templars would be okay if we had anything that could do anything in CQC
bikers - trash
land speeders - trash
scout bikers - good (but fragile, short range and don't really synergize with anything else in the book)
strats - trash (mortal wound from devs is good, re-roll bubble for dreads would be okay if they weren't so bad, fight twice after death okay, templars denying on a 4+ is okay)
Lascannons - trash vs everything they need to shoot at. All the 3++s running around has pretty much invalidated them.
Melta - worse than trash. Like lascannons but less range and more cost.
Grav - trash. Range is too short, penalty for movement is too much, only d3 vs 3+ targets is too restrictive and they cost twice as much as a dissie cannon
Plasma - okay (which is why you see it all the time which double feths marines because it is so good at killing us)
bolters - trash. Can't kill hordes, can't kill elites, can't kill anything
Missile launchers - trash. str isn't high enough, flak doesn't shoot enough to be worth 25 fething points
Heavy bolters - meh
Storm bolters - great but can only put them on like 2 options
Hurricane bolters - great but limited options and better off putting them on banana bikes.
So after all that. Scouts, scout bikers, leve dreads, gman, maybe some flyers/repulsors, dev squads for MW with a sprinkling of characters. You can win with units outside of these, hell a smart player can win with nothing but tac marines but you will be at a disadvantage. You really get lost once you start comparing marine options to other imperial soup options.
[\rant]
With orcs around the corner our inability to deal with both armor and bodies will be on full display further relegating us to the dregs of the codex pile.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Regarding assaulting Screens, double Chainsword Vanguard might still be the best at doing that.
I think the question now though, is, do you even want to be assault screens with Raven Guard anymore?
You can use the stratagem to get turn 1 charges with JP units, but, all you're doing is charging those screens with zero backup turn 1. You also run the risk of not having first turn. If you cant vanguard into a good position then, you've essentially just wasted CP.
And I choosed my SM as my gaming army...How is infortunate is this...
What about the assassins ? Do you think they could prove somewhat useful for a competitive / tournament scene ?
godardc wrote: And I choosed my SM as my gaming army...How is infortunate is this...
What about the assassins ? Do you think they could prove somewhat useful for a competitive / tournament scene ?
Well they're one of those units with native Infiltrate, and the Callidus will have more power now due to how you can't generate more than 1 CP in a turn. Everyone has a good use besides the Vindicare, but you can still make an argument for him due to how some players overreact to a Sniper that isn't garbage.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Regarding assaulting Screens, double Chainsword Vanguard might still be the best at doing that.
I think the question now though, is, do you even want to be assault screens with Raven Guard anymore?
You can use the stratagem to get turn 1 charges with JP units, but, all you're doing is charging those screens with zero backup turn 1. You also run the risk of not having first turn. If you cant vanguard into a good position then, you've essentially just wasted CP.
Well they can still tie up units so some won't shoot, and they'll do more damage than Assault Marines will for not much more. I think we can still argue for Vanguard as having a use, though how much they need to be used is the question.
I've been having a lot of success with SM recently.
My previous list was 14-3 against a variety of opponents (and two of my losses came down to smash captains not doing sufficient wounds to castellans and sheer bad luck. Like some 1/1024 chance of happening sort of luck)
My current list which contains a large segment of my previous list (dropped three predators and a squad of marines for a knight) is currently 3-0, with two games closer than I would've liked but the third being an absolute stomp.
With the new FAQ, I might go back to the previous list because entrenched positions make predators and rhinos way more survivable first turn.
Vilehydra wrote: I've been having a lot of success with SM recently.
My previous list was 14-3 against a variety of opponents (and two of my losses came down to smash captains not doing sufficient wounds to castellans and sheer bad luck. Like some 1/1024 chance of happening sort of luck)
My current list which contains a large segment of my previous list (dropped three predators and a squad of marines for a knight) is currently 3-0, with two games closer than I would've liked but the third being an absolute stomp.
With the new FAQ, I might go back to the previous list because entrenched positions make predators and rhinos way more survivable first turn.
When you say SMs, from your post I’m presuming you mean Imperium Soup which includes Space Marines? (for example, you said you’re currently running Smash Captains and a Knight)
You running straight up Blood Angels with the preds and rhinos, or, is it just Smash Captains for BA and then other marines for the rest?
++ Salamander Battalion 1 ++
- Terminator Captain with SS/TH - 141 - warlord
- Librarian with Jump pack, force stave, and armor indomitus - 120
- 5 man Tactical Squad with melta-gun, combi-melta, and chainsword on the SGT -101
- 5 man Tactical Squad with melta-gun, combi-melta, and chainsword on the SGT -101
- 5 man Tactical Squad with melta-gun, combi-melta, and chainsword on the SGT -101
- Rhino 2 x Stormbolter - 74
- Rhino 2 x Stormbolter - 74
- Rhino 2 x Stormbolter - 74
++ Salamander Battalion 2 ++
- Captain with MCB and chainsword - 77
- LT with MCB and chainsword - 63
- 5 man Tactical Squad with melta-gun, combi-melta, and chainsword on the SGT -101
- 5 man Tactical Squad with melta-gun, combi-melta, and chainsword on the SGT -101
- 5 man Tactical Squad with melta-gun, combi-melta, and chainsword on the SGT -101
- 5 man scout squad with CCW and BP - 55
- 5 man scout squad with CCW and BP - 55
- Venerable dreadnought with ML and twin Lascannon - 165
- 5 man vanguard squad with jump packs and double chainswords - 90
- Predator with pred AC - 130
- Predator with pred AC - 130
- Predator with Twin Lascannon - 140
++ 1994 points 13 CP ++
My current list -
Spoiler:
++ Salamander Battalion 1 ++
- Terminator Captain with SS/TH - 141 - warlord
- Librarian with Jump pack, force stave, and armor indomitus - 120
- 5 man Tactical Squad with melta-gun, combi-melta, and powersword on the SGT -106
- 5 man Tactical Squad with melta-gun, combi-melta, and powersword on the SGT -106
- 5 man Tactical Squad with melta-gun, combi-melta, and powersword on the SGT -106
- Rhino 2 x Stormbolter - 74
- Rhino 2 x Stormbolter - 74
- Rhino 2 x Stormbolter - 74
++ Salamander Battalion 2 ++
- Captain combi-melta and TH - 114
- LT with combi-melta and TH - 100
- 5 man Tactical Squad with melta-gun, combi-melta, and powersword on the SGT -106
- 5 man Tactical Squad with melta-gun, combi-melta, and chainsword on the SGT -101
- 5 man scout squad with CCW and BP - 55
- 5 man scout squad with CCW and BP - 55
- Venerable dreadnought with ML and twin Lascannon - 165
- 5 man vanguard squad with jump packs and double chainswords - 90
++ Super heavy Aux - House Taranis ++
- Knight Errant with Thermal Cannon, Gauntlet, and Melta gun - 413
++ 2000 points, 13 CP ++
A quick disclaimer, most of the games were ITC, which allows players to choose things like warlord traits/relics/psychic just as your choosing secondary objectives.
The warlord either gets the shield eternal, or the salamanders mantle. Shield eternal against knights or multi-damage weapons, mantle against massed fire armies. For his warlord trait he gets either +1 wound and a 6+ Fnp, Re-roll charges and +1 attack if charging, or +1 strength (salamander special, only really used this one for knights, and not even all the time) depending on what the situation requires. If I was boxed into choosing a single relic/trait it would be shield eternal and reroll charges.
The librarian will always be getting Armor indomitus, it makes him way more tanky. He always will have nullzone, and either VoT or MoH depending on how I play my termi-captain. If forced to choose blind, it would be MoH and Null Zone.
The knight is almost always getting Ion Bulwark, and depending on the match up either a paragon gauntlet, relic thermal cannon, 5+ inv in CC, or 2+ armor.
The salamander CT allows the meltaguns to be incredibly efficient at removing any big targets, especially ones that rely on invuln saves with NZ around.
Also never, ever forget the might krak grenade. The amount of characters/knights/vehicles that have been brought low by the mighty salamander krak grenade is absurd.
I'd bet a few people would be surprised this list works at all (I was at first), and I expect it to get better as CA comes along and melta/TC might get point drops.
Aggressors get hit hard by enemy being able to get +1 to saves without any ap on their attacks.
There's nothing in the marine dex that wants to get into CQC with screens.
Can't get hellblasters into double tap range. Everything else in the dex "works" from 9" further back.
[rant]
I've been screaming that the marine dex would be trash tier once other dexes came out ever since I first saw the guard dex. It has come true. Gulliman can make the army work against some enemies but without any competent melee we have no answer for knights and thus are pretty much invalidated as an army.
Unless you run something like Reece's MW fishing army (sniper scouts, mw abusing devs, apothecary and ancient) and get lucky with fishing for those mortals (and your apothecary/ancient rolls) we are dead in the water. Dissie cannons, plasma, cawls wrath and the host of other ap 2d weapons has killed primaris dead.
We can't build to both deal with knights and hordes because our weapons are too inefficient and our units are not resilient enough.
Of course we can win some games when luck is on our side our by out-playing your opponent but against a general with like skill level and an optimized list that isn't marines we are at a major disadvantage. We have no plus matchups and don't have a phase where we are favored. Anything in our dex that does anything can be done better/cheaper by another imperial army.
Our only shtick is Gman and it is so easy to kill the troops he is buffing that you better hope you go first. The best units in our book are not even marines (scouts) or are FW (leviathan dread).
Tacs - trash
scouts - good. even better now that they are among the few that can deploy outside of your zone.
Dreads - trash (outside of leviathan and maybe relic conteptors)
Termies - trash
Cents - trash is too kind
flyers - not quite trash but space wolves and DA flyers are so much better and let's not even talk about eldar
Land raiders - trash
repulsors - mostly trash. No invlun and knight/anti-knight meta hurts these things badly. I guess if you run 2-3 of them with gman you can do well.
Rhinos - trash
drop pods - trash
razorbacks - not quite trash but really close
primaris - trash. Too much ap multi wound weapons out there.
characters - mostly trash
chapter tactics - raven guard/salies aren't trash, templars would be okay if we had anything that could do anything in CQC
bikers - trash
land speeders - trash
scout bikers - good (but fragile, short range and don't really synergize with anything else in the book)
strats - trash (mortal wound from devs is good, re-roll bubble for dreads would be okay if they weren't so bad, fight twice after death okay, templars denying on a 4+ is okay)
Lascannons - trash vs everything they need to shoot at. All the 3++s running around has pretty much invalidated them.
Melta - worse than trash. Like lascannons but less range and more cost.
Grav - trash. Range is too short, penalty for movement is too much, only d3 vs 3+ targets is too restrictive and they cost twice as much as a dissie cannon
Plasma - okay (which is why you see it all the time which double feths marines because it is so good at killing us)
bolters - trash. Can't kill hordes, can't kill elites, can't kill anything
Missile launchers - trash. str isn't high enough, flak doesn't shoot enough to be worth 25 fething points
Heavy bolters - meh
Storm bolters - great but can only put them on like 2 options
Hurricane bolters - great but limited options and better off putting them on banana bikes.
So after all that. Scouts, scout bikers, leve dreads, gman, maybe some flyers/repulsors, dev squads for MW with a sprinkling of characters. You can win with units outside of these, hell a smart player can win with nothing but tac marines but you will be at a disadvantage. You really get lost once you start comparing marine options to other imperial soup options.
[\rant]
With orcs around the corner our inability to deal with both armor and bodies will be on full display further relegating us to the dregs of the codex pile.
I concur with analysis. Whole book is trash. 20% drop for everything is what the codex needs.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Rely on null zone = fail tactica
I have this muse to paint up an SM vanilla dread. Not convinced I want an SM army - I've dodged it for 20 years - but if you did, what would be the optimal (regardless of how uncompetitive in practice) loadout? Do they ever get into combat - and if they do, is the dreadnought close combat weapon worth the sligthtly ludicrous points cost? I am leaning dual las+missile launcher, but I am happy to be told otherwise. (My vaguely competitive brain is trying to stop comparing this to say a ravager and laughing).
I also suspect mathematically the best chapter would be Raven Guard or maybe Salamanders but I am leaning Fists just for the colour scheme (yes you can argue this doesn't matter, but meh. I really hate Salamander Green).
grouchoben wrote: Can you post an example of the kind of list you're playing against?
I can try, most of the games were over a month old. In general the lists fought against-
Lots of knights, ranging from quadruple knights to IG/BA/Knight soup. I did lose one game against a 4 knight/lucky 32 list, but it came down to the fact that out of 12 total attacks TH attacks at str 10 with a captain did 2 total wounds (6 damage) against a castellan.
Ork boy horde with airforce
Imperial guard - basilisks spam, plasma vets, tauroxes, kurovs/GS and more.
GSC
Dark Angels - (bike spam + devs with shroud and azrael)
Eldar - (did not fight against Altaioc air shenaniganry unfortunately, but did fight Altaioc Aspect warrior spam)
Space marines - Gulliman line and some other non-comp lists. Funnily enough, lost to a BT list with a castellan because I rolled incredibly poorly. Full Pred team and ven dread did a total of 2 wounds to the castellan, and it didn't even have the Ion bulwark or RIS. Did an orbital strike (never, ever do OS, even if it seems super juicy) and hit 10 different units (2 hellblaster squads, 2 dev squads, 2 BT mixed squads, 2 Intercessors, and 2 characters) it did a total of 0 MWs. The dev squads had no ablative wounds, so any casualties inflicted would've been super important, same with possibly killing of HB's.
World eaters- Bloodletter bomb x 2, double butcher cannon leviathans, DP, berzerkers and cultists. (played the same guy twice, went 1-1. The second game came down to me not being able to do more than 4 damage to a leviathan between the ven dred and the full predator kill team over a couple of shooting rounds).
Deathguard - double DP, super plague spewer and decked out pred kill team. Opponent was kinda new.
Tyranids - 6(?) carnifexes, brood lord, genestealers, multiple hive tyrants, two hive guard, and a bunch of critters.
Those are what I can remember of the bat. Which leaves two match ups that I still need to test this list again, dark eldar and tau. I'll probably have a tough time against the dark eldar unless I can shut down ravagers right away. Hoping to play a tau list this weekend.
As a note, null zone greatly helps the melta put damage out but the army is by no means reliant on it. That's kind of the point of this list. Nothing is a lynchpin and everything has multiple uses that can be adapted to the situation.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tyel wrote: Possibly an odd question that may have come up.
I have this muse to paint up an SM vanilla dread. Not convinced I want an SM army - I've dodged it for 20 years - but if you did, what would be the optimal (regardless of how uncompetitive in practice) loadout? Do they ever get into combat - and if they do, is the dreadnought close combat weapon worth the sligthtly ludicrous points cost? I am leaning dual las+missile launcher, but I am happy to be told otherwise. (My vaguely competitive brain is trying to stop comparing this to say a ravager and laughing).
I also suspect mathematically the best chapter would be Raven Guard or maybe Salamanders but I am leaning Fists just for the colour scheme (yes you can argue this doesn't matter, but meh. I really hate Salamander Green).
I go Twin Las/Missile because its what I had, and it's done pretty well. This variant is great with Salamander CT's especially if your using him as a venerable dreadnought.
Dreadnoughts are way too slow to get into CC, don't worry about the melee weapon unless you want to use them as counter chargers to smash demon princes (and if that is the case, I'd recommend Ironclads, because T8 and flat 4 damage melee is kinda good)
Tyel wrote: Possibly an odd question that may have come up.
I have this muse to paint up an SM vanilla dread. Not convinced I want an SM army - I've dodged it for 20 years - but if you did, what would be the optimal (regardless of how uncompetitive in practice) loadout? Do they ever get into combat - and if they do, is the dreadnought close combat weapon worth the sligthtly ludicrous points cost? I am leaning dual las+missile launcher, but I am happy to be told otherwise. (My vaguely competitive brain is trying to stop comparing this to say a ravager and laughing).
I also suspect mathematically the best chapter would be Raven Guard or maybe Salamanders but I am leaning Fists just for the colour scheme (yes you can argue this doesn't matter, but meh. I really hate Salamander Green).
If you absolutely want to use a Washing Machine Dread, you're gonna go either Rifleman or substitute it for an Ironclad.
Guilliman ofc will need to be reworked but as pointed out the entire book is trash. 20% is about what it takes to make trash units competitive.
That's boring, though. Strats would still be trash. Librarius would still be trash. Warlord traits would still be trash. Most relics also. Chapter Tactics should apply to every unit, too - especially with the rumours of all the -1 to hit traits getting nerfed.
Jesus, my man, if you want a better codex don't just stop at points reductions. That's amateur hour gak.
++ Salamander Battalion 1 ++
- Terminator Captain with SS/TH - 141 - warlord
- Librarian with Jump pack, force stave, and armor indomitus - 120
- 5 man Tactical Squad with melta-gun, combi-melta, and chainsword on the SGT -101
- 5 man Tactical Squad with melta-gun, combi-melta, and chainsword on the SGT -101
- 5 man Tactical Squad with melta-gun, combi-melta, and chainsword on the SGT -101
- Rhino 2 x Stormbolter - 74
- Rhino 2 x Stormbolter - 74
- Rhino 2 x Stormbolter - 74
++ Salamander Battalion 2 ++
- Captain with MCB and chainsword - 77
- LT with MCB and chainsword - 63
- 5 man Tactical Squad with melta-gun, combi-melta, and chainsword on the SGT -101
- 5 man Tactical Squad with melta-gun, combi-melta, and chainsword on the SGT -101
- 5 man Tactical Squad with melta-gun, combi-melta, and chainsword on the SGT -101
- 5 man scout squad with CCW and BP - 55
- 5 man scout squad with CCW and BP - 55
- Venerable dreadnought with ML and twin Lascannon - 165
- 5 man vanguard squad with jump packs and double chainswords - 90
- Predator with pred AC - 130
- Predator with pred AC - 130
- Predator with Twin Lascannon - 140
++ 1994 points 13 CP ++
My current list -
Spoiler:
++ Salamander Battalion 1 ++
- Terminator Captain with SS/TH - 141 - warlord
- Librarian with Jump pack, force stave, and armor indomitus - 120
- 5 man Tactical Squad with melta-gun, combi-melta, and powersword on the SGT -106
- 5 man Tactical Squad with melta-gun, combi-melta, and powersword on the SGT -106
- 5 man Tactical Squad with melta-gun, combi-melta, and powersword on the SGT -106
- Rhino 2 x Stormbolter - 74
- Rhino 2 x Stormbolter - 74
- Rhino 2 x Stormbolter - 74
++ Salamander Battalion 2 ++
- Captain combi-melta and TH - 114
- LT with combi-melta and TH - 100
- 5 man Tactical Squad with melta-gun, combi-melta, and powersword on the SGT -106
- 5 man Tactical Squad with melta-gun, combi-melta, and chainsword on the SGT -101
- 5 man scout squad with CCW and BP - 55
- 5 man scout squad with CCW and BP - 55
- Venerable dreadnought with ML and twin Lascannon - 165
- 5 man vanguard squad with jump packs and double chainswords - 90
++ Super heavy Aux - House Taranis ++
- Knight Errant with Thermal Cannon, Gauntlet, and Melta gun - 413
++ 2000 points, 13 CP ++
A quick disclaimer, most of the games were ITC, which allows players to choose things like warlord traits/relics/psychic just as your choosing secondary objectives.
The warlord either gets the shield eternal, or the salamanders mantle. Shield eternal against knights or multi-damage weapons, mantle against massed fire armies. For his warlord trait he gets either +1 wound and a 6+ Fnp, Re-roll charges and +1 attack if charging, or +1 strength (salamander special, only really used this one for knights, and not even all the time) depending on what the situation requires. If I was boxed into choosing a single relic/trait it would be shield eternal and reroll charges.
The librarian will always be getting Armor indomitus, it makes him way more tanky. He always will have nullzone, and either VoT or MoH depending on how I play my termi-captain. If forced to choose blind, it would be MoH and Null Zone.
The knight is almost always getting Ion Bulwark, and depending on the match up either a paragon gauntlet, relic thermal cannon, 5+ inv in CC, or 2+ armor.
The salamander CT allows the meltaguns to be incredibly efficient at removing any big targets, especially ones that rely on invuln saves with NZ around.
Also never, ever forget the might krak grenade. The amount of characters/knights/vehicles that have been brought low by the mighty salamander krak grenade is absurd.
I'd bet a few people would be surprised this list works at all (I was at first), and I expect it to get better as CA comes along and melta/TC might get point drops.
I wasn't expecting this kind of lists, very interesting !
How are you using your vanguards ?
godardc wrote:
I wasn't expecting this kind of lists, very interesting !
How are you using your vanguards ?
Vanguards are either used as DS chaff clearers or ablative wounds for the terminator captain. They will absolutely shred guardsmen squads (or bloodletters) if they can make that charge, however with the new FAQ change to fly it's going to be a bit more difficult for them to make effective charges. That being said, I'll still probably keep them to force opponents to dedicate something to deepstrike denial and for some flexibility.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Honestly Melta Guns are bad even with rerolls. Plasma is going to save you a good amount of points too
Yeah, meltas aren't in a good place right now points wise, but plasmas just wouldn't work for this type of list for a couple reasons.
- No guaranteed captain re-rolls. This works fine when using the Salamander CT in conjunction with two weapons that cant kill the users, but when putting out 4 shots a turn that could remove one of your guys (across 5 or 6 squads) then you should be having captain support. Leading to blobs, which leads to poor board control.
- If a plasma gunner does kill himself, the damage potential of the squad nearly halves itself. Whereas meltas can only be removed after the 3 ablative wounds go down first.
- -4 can be incredibly important in many scenarios, especially when you have the capability to shut down someones invuln.
This list began as a way to see if I could make tacs, rhinos, and meltas work. Frankly I'm still surprised it's worked as well as it has.
I'm guessing its only going to get better when CA comes out
You could use just assault marines, you would get lpretty much the same results, wouldn't you ?
Do you play aggressivly or do you castle and use your deep striking part to disturb ? I could run the same list as you if I had a third pred^^
Have you been able to use the kill shot with them ?
So many questions !
godardc wrote: You could use just assault marines, you would get lpretty much the same results, wouldn't you ?
Do you play aggressivly or do you castle and use your deep striking part to disturb ? I could run the same list as you if I had a third pred^^
Have you been able to use the kill shot with them ?
So many questions !
Assault Marines are MUCH worse for the job, because of the damage output from Vanguard being significantly higher. Whatever falls back from the Assault Marines will have more firepower for the next turn compared to whatever the Vanguard don't kill.
godardc wrote:
I wasn't expecting this kind of lists, very interesting !
How are you using your vanguards ?
Vanguards are either used as DS chaff clearers or ablative wounds for the terminator captain. They will absolutely shred guardsmen squads (or bloodletters) if they can make that charge, however with the new FAQ change to fly it's going to be a bit more difficult for them to make effective charges. That being said, I'll still probably keep them to force opponents to dedicate something to deepstrike denial and for some flexibility.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Honestly Melta Guns are bad even with rerolls. Plasma is going to save you a good amount of points too
Yeah, meltas aren't in a good place right now points wise, but plasmas just wouldn't work for this type of list for a couple reasons.
- No guaranteed captain re-rolls. This works fine when using the Salamander CT in conjunction with two weapons that cant kill the users, but when putting out 4 shots a turn that could remove one of your guys (across 5 or 6 squads) then you should be having captain support. Leading to blobs, which leads to poor board control.
- If a plasma gunner does kill himself, the damage potential of the squad nearly halves itself. Whereas meltas can only be removed after the 3 ablative wounds go down first.
- -4 can be incredibly important in many scenarios, especially when you have the capability to shut down someones invuln.
This list began as a way to see if I could make tacs, rhinos, and meltas work. Frankly I'm still surprised it's worked as well as it has.
I'm guessing its only going to get better when CA comes out
1. The -4 doesn't matter against vehicles you should actually worry about. The -4AP you get from Plasma will do the same but the damage over time will be higher.
2. If they die, they die. Melta is THAT bad. Also the argument for needing the Captain rerolls doesn't work as you're using Salamanders, which you just said makes those shots easier to use.
1. The -4 doesn't matter against vehicles you should actually worry about. The -4AP you get from Plasma will do the same but the damage over time will be higher.
2. If they die, they die. Melta is THAT bad. Also the argument for needing the Captain rerolls doesn't work as you're using Salamanders, which you just said makes those shots easier to use.
Mostly true - though most plasma is -3 AP.
Melta exceeds average damage from plasma in melta range, but half of the things you want to slag with either won't be affected by the AP because they have invuln saves or aren't something you really can or want to be that close to. With plasma being cheaper, great against elite infantry due to weight of fire, and more forgiving in positioning due to greater range, melta falls behind quick and holds little value from a competitive standpoint.
That being said, I have found success with suicide DW combi-melta teams, but not in an ultra competitive list. Like all thing 40k, a small number of inefficient choices won't tank your chances at winning.
You know what would help melta? Reducing the success of invuln saves at half range.
How can you deal with horde with such an army though? True, with Salamanders CT your high Str and ap qeapons will perform quite well. But it looks like the list lacks the raw firepower to deal with mass infantry. How would you tackle a green tide type of lists or GSC with lots of stealers amd infantry with cheap vehicles?
I like the principle behind the list, I'm just concerned about some matchups...
jpwyrm wrote: How can you deal with horde with such an army though? True, with Salamanders CT your high Str and ap qeapons will perform quite well. But it looks like the list lacks the raw firepower to deal with mass infantry. How would you tackle a green tide type of lists or GSC with lots of stealers amd infantry with cheap vehicles?
I like the principle behind the list, I'm just concerned about some matchups...
The list has a good amount of bolters and stormbolters to thin out the ranks. Also rhinos are pretty resilient against lots of little attacks and can be used for movement blocking. The knight can stomp some dudes out. It's hard to have a list that will handle everything.
I get that very well. I was looking more into the first iteration of your list since i don't iwn a knight myself.
I guess I could cut one tactical squad out and shuffle some gear around to add a thunderfire cannon, or maybe some scout bikers to act as fast responders.
I've mostly been stuck working on evenings the local places do game nights, haven't gotten to play much the past few months. Couple comments on the last few pages worth of topics:
How are people finding the Leviathan dread now? I mean, it's stats are still good (for SM anyways), but I worry that now that everyone is prepped for Knights, the Leviathan is just too easy to drop?
Now, I'll grant Reece is a massively better player than I am with a ton more experience, but I don't see how mortal spamming with SM even works. Devs with strats, obviously. But sniper scouts? You pay so much for that 1 sniper mortal seems like you can buy that exact same firepower in other ways. That or I'm just massively undervaluing the threat of putting those 1-2 mortals/turn on enemy chars?
(If I recall, it's what, like 120pts to get enough Scouts to average 1mortal/turn, plus add in a bit for the normal sniper shots. But compare those to the output of 3 aggressors or hellblasters and the mortal alone isn't enough to compensate vs pretty much any target. Body and deployment-wise 8 Scouts is better, but still, that's not mortal fishing.)
Lastly, I really hope GW doesn't just price drop SM 20%. It'd be better than nothing and maybe work as the Dec point fix, but long term I hope not. First, as noted, it still leaves a lot of cruddy stuff in the dex. Second, Marines are supposed to be an elite (or elitish) army. We're starting to look pretty horde by that point. GW needs to figure out how to make an elite trooper actually tough enough to last his point value in a system with a ton of high str 2 damage weapons floating around everywhere. That and kill more with bolters/basic cc.
jpwyrm wrote:How can you deal with horde with such an army though? True, with Salamanders CT your high Str and ap qeapons will perform quite well. But it looks like the list lacks the raw firepower to deal with mass infantry. How would you tackle a green tide type of lists or GSC with lots of stealers amd infantry with cheap vehicles?
I like the principle behind the list, I'm just concerned about some matchups...
jpwyrm wrote:I get that very well. I was looking more into the first iteration of your list since i don't iwn a knight myself.
I guess I could cut one tactical squad out and shuffle some gear around to add a thunderfire cannon, or maybe some scout bikers to act as fast responders.
My first posted list (the one with predators instead of knights) did go against a greentide/airforce list (1300/700 was around the point split I think). Won by tying down orkboys with rhinos and gunning down the rest with bolters with the captain/LT support (usually used to increase the predators effectiveness) to augment the massed fire, where the CT stops being as effective. I was able to wipe a squad of 30 boys a turn while the rest was being tied down. The airforce was shredded by the preds, ven dread, and meltas.
You win against hordes (shooting or melee) by controlling the board. Hordes can't fly over units. The scouts and the rhinos provide enough bodies to block significant portions of the hordes (either by denying movement or tying up units) while the bolters just concentrate one whittling down what they can.
Melee hordes can be gummed up and brought down through attrition. Shooting hordes can be locked down and be forced to continually fallback. There are some lists where its okay to be reactive against, hordes aren't one of them. Make them play your game however you can.
bort wrote: I've mostly been stuck working on evenings the local places do game nights, haven't gotten to play much the past few months. Couple comments on the last few pages worth of topics:
How are people finding the Leviathan dread now? I mean, it's stats are still good (for SM anyways), but I worry that now that everyone is prepped for Knights, the Leviathan is just too easy to drop?
Now, I'll grant Reece is a massively better player than I am with a ton more experience, but I don't see how mortal spamming with SM even works. Devs with strats, obviously. But sniper scouts? You pay so much for that 1 sniper mortal seems like you can buy that exact same firepower in other ways. That or I'm just massively undervaluing the threat of putting those 1-2 mortals/turn on enemy chars?
(If I recall, it's what, like 120pts to get enough Scouts to average 1mortal/turn, plus add in a bit for the normal sniper shots. But compare those to the output of 3 aggressors or hellblasters and the mortal alone isn't enough to compensate vs pretty much any target. Body and deployment-wise 8 Scouts is better, but still, that's not mortal fishing.)
Lastly, I really hope GW doesn't just price drop SM 20%. It'd be better than nothing and maybe work as the Dec point fix, but long term I hope not. First, as noted, it still leaves a lot of cruddy stuff in the dex. Second, Marines are supposed to be an elite (or elitish) army. We're starting to look pretty horde by that point. GW needs to figure out how to make an elite trooper actually tough enough to last his point value in a system with a ton of high str 2 damage weapons floating around everywhere. That and kill more with bolters/basic cc.
Is your math here on scouts taking into account Guilliman and rerolling all fails?
I wasn't. Did he use Guilliman? I didn't see his list, just a quick comment on a podcast that he used Scouts and Devs for mortals. Though Guilliman also boosts all other shots too...Not having a calc handy I guess I'll trust this makes it work out better for hitting T8 and/or high invuln save targets, but I'd still bet its worse vs anything lighter. I mean, sniper scouts have been around forever and no one bothered to spam them with Guilliman before.
bort wrote: I wasn't. Did he use Guilliman? I didn't see his list, just a quick comment on a podcast that he used Scouts and Devs for mortals. Though Guilliman also boosts all other shots too...Not having a calc handy I guess I'll trust this makes it work out better for hitting T8 and/or high invuln save targets, but I'd still bet its worse vs anything lighter. I mean, sniper scouts have been around forever and no one bothered to spam them with Guilliman before.
Yeah, his focus wasn't just sniper scouts, though. Hellfire and Flakk gems on Devs were key as well. With the Signum and Cherub you pump out a decent number early, but then also strike again as the Dev squads start taking causalities with the relic banner nearby. Then heal up from the apothecary. That's on top of using the scouts to focus high T targets so they would reroll a larger chunk of wound rolls to fish for the MWs.
The Sternguard and scout bikes are the units Reece used to take on lighter fare, along with Libs and Bubbah G. Looks fun and synergizes well. Reece built it for Nova, which always has a lot of LoS blocking terrain. And NN changed it up by focusing on heavy Librarian use, assassins, and less bodies, but the same standard concept.
Ooh, I forgot about doing that. I use the cherub+hellfire/flakk too, but didn't think about using hellfire again in opponent's turn if a model dies and gets to fire with the banner.
jpwyrm wrote:How can you deal with horde with such an army though? True, with Salamanders CT your high Str and ap qeapons will perform quite well. But it looks like the list lacks the raw firepower to deal with mass infantry. How would you tackle a green tide type of lists or GSC with lots of stealers amd infantry with cheap vehicles?
I like the principle behind the list, I'm just concerned about some matchups...
jpwyrm wrote:I get that very well. I was looking more into the first iteration of your list since i don't iwn a knight myself.
I guess I could cut one tactical squad out and shuffle some gear around to add a thunderfire cannon, or maybe some scout bikers to act as fast responders.
My first posted list (the one with predators instead of knights) did go against a greentide/airforce list (1300/700 was around the point split I think). Won by tying down orkboys with rhinos and gunning down the rest with bolters with the captain/LT support (usually used to increase the predators effectiveness) to augment the massed fire, where the CT stops being as effective. I was able to wipe a squad of 30 boys a turn while the rest was being tied down. The airforce was shredded by the preds, ven dread, and meltas.
You win against hordes (shooting or melee) by controlling the board. Hordes can't fly over units. The scouts and the rhinos provide enough bodies to block significant portions of the hordes (either by denying movement or tying up units) while the bolters just concentrate one whittling down what they can.
Melee hordes can be gummed up and brought down through attrition. Shooting hordes can be locked down and be forced to continually fallback. There are some lists where its okay to be reactive against, hordes aren't one of them. Make them play your game however you can.
Gave the first list a try, trading one tactical squad for a scout biker squad, adding storm bolters to the rhinos and heavy bolters to one of the predator. I played against a nasty GSC army about 50/50 artillery+guard and ambushing abherrant+abomination combo.
I was very surprised at how well the list performed. Though I lost the terminator captain to overwatch in a critical assault that cost me the game, it was still the best performamce I had with single faction marines since the changes to Reserves in the first FAQ.
I need to find a way to get in range of Artillery fast though. We deployed using the arrows on the short board edges, with LOS blocking terrain in the middle and some in ou own DZ. The preds could only see a couple of his tanks even and the rhinos were smoked in turn one preventing the tacticals to get near enough to threaten them.
Still, a very good game, I will be using that list again.
Hey guys. How do you rate redemptors? Two onslaughts looks like a lot of nice dakka for clearing troops. Does anyone use them and are there any good tips for buffing them?
Tpiddy wrote: Hey guys. How do you rate redemptors? Two onslaughts looks like a lot of nice dakka for clearing troops. Does anyone use them and are there any good tips for buffing them?
It's on the fun side of things.
Basically no reason to take it over a Repulsor. Redemptor is basically always -1 to hit because it's moving.
A Dakka Repuslor is only about 90 points more and has about double the firepower and it's tougher plus it transports guys.
How bad is it to run Ultramarines without Gman or Primaris? I don't want to use them for fluff reasons.
I got a storm raven, devs, a bunch of tactical marines, the other ultramarine characters, a contemptor dreadnought, and a predator. Should i just stop the bleeding and start over with something better or can i make this work?
Tibs Ironblood wrote: And the best part is that the repulsor is still a bad unit all things considered.
It's not actually all that bad - it's tons of fun and has some fun options. I really personally enjoy the build with like 5 fragstorm launchers and a ton of str 5 AP -1 shots.
The problem is that it's just a bit overcosted - just like most of the tough marine transports (Land Raiders and Flyers specifically).
Tibs Ironblood wrote: And the best part is that the repulsor is still a bad unit all things considered.
It's not actually all that bad - it's tons of fun and has some fun options. I really personally enjoy the build with like 5 fragstorm launchers and a ton of str 5 AP -1 shots.
The problem is that it's just a bit overcosted - just like most of the tough marine transports (Land Raiders and Flyers specifically).
The repulsor in Deathwatch could be quite amazing. For the cost of 2CP they vomit a ton of firepower that wound most things on 4s or better.
If you take it in Codex Space Marine, it is better to be Ultramarine and park it next to Guilliman, it maybe the only way to make its own points back.
footfoe wrote: How bad is it to run Ultramarines without Gman or Primaris? I don't want to use them for fluff reasons.
I got a storm raven, devs, a bunch of tactical marines, the other ultramarine characters, a contemptor dreadnought, and a predator. Should i just stop the bleeding and start over with something better or can i make this work?
How competitive is your meta?
If you want to play at the top tables in a very competitive environment, you need to pay close attention to things like unit efficiency and synergies. Or be a good enough player to overcome shortcomings by leveraging other advantages. But it’s pretty much about taking broken combos and exploiting every advantage you can.
For play at your average FLGS, you can get away with a lot more stuff. It sounds like you have a solid core of a TAC list. UM tactics aren’t horrible (but not The Best). You have a number of good units with decent firepower. I suspect vs. an average player, you would both have a fun game. Depending on what they brought and skill levels of the players, it could go either way.
40k has always been easy to break. This has lead to a spectrum of levels of play. You can play at top-table competitive levels, and have fun. Or fluffy lists, and have fun. But mix the two, and probably both players are going to be unhappy. Talk to your opponents. Find out what kind of game they want. Figure out what kind of game you want. Paint your models, purge some xenos, have fun.
footfoe wrote: How bad is it to run Ultramarines without Gman or Primaris? I don't want to use them for fluff reasons.
I got a storm raven, devs, a bunch of tactical marines, the other ultramarine characters, a contemptor dreadnought, and a predator. Should i just stop the bleeding and start over with something better or can i make this work?
My lists are all UM, Devs, Tacticals and some smattering of other things like Sternguard, Rhinos, etc. now, and I get by pretty well on it. I haven't felt the need to take any special characters yet, and instead just fork over the CP to upgrade a generic Captain to a Chapter Master, and run a Lieutenant to get my re-rolls.
Right now my Devastators are leveraging lots of Plasma Cannons plus a Heavy Bolter and a Missile Launcher for the Stratagems. Then I keep them in range of the Relic Banner so they can shoot more as they die. Those guys do tons of damage for me.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: And the best part is that the repulsor is still a bad unit all things considered.
It's not actually all that bad - it's tons of fun and has some fun options. I really personally enjoy the build with like 5 fragstorm launchers and a ton of str 5 AP -1 shots.
The problem is that it's just a bit overcosted - just like most of the tough marine transports (Land Raiders and Flyers specifically).
I go for the anti air stubber and take a pintle mounted stubber. So I have 3 stubbers for long range ap-1. 4 frag launchers and las talon and twin las. It's quite an offensive beast. Thing is it is just not tough enough for it's cost.
footfoe wrote: How bad is it to run Ultramarines without Gman or Primaris? I don't want to use them for fluff reasons.
I got a storm raven, devs, a bunch of tactical marines, the other ultramarine characters, a contemptor dreadnought, and a predator. Should i just stop the bleeding and start over with something better or can i make this work?
My lists are all UM, Devs, Tacticals and some smattering of other things like Sternguard, Rhinos, etc. now, and I get by pretty well on it. I haven't felt the need to take any special characters yet, and instead just fork over the CP to upgrade a generic Captain to a Chapter Master, and run a Lieutenant to get my re-rolls.
Right now my Devastators are leveraging lots of Plasma Cannons plus a Heavy Bolter and a Missile Launcher for the Stratagems. Then I keep them in range of the Relic Banner so they can shoot more as they die. Those guys do tons of damage for me.
If you want to boost your list with characters, but avoid Gman, then Calgar could be a good option. While both his stats and buffing abilities pale in comparison to Guilliman, Calgs can fill a similar role if you want to save the points.
You're basically doing the same thing with your devs and banner that are done with the better Primaris units (which has much less stratagem support), so you aren't actually missing much. Intercessors tend to be better than tacticals, but neither are as good as scouts, so if you're finding your tacs are doing enough for you then it's worth just sticking with that.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Xenomancers wrote: I go for the anti air stubber and take a pintle mounted stubber. So I have 3 stubbers for long range ap-1. 4 frag launchers and las talon and twin las. It's quite an offensive beast. Thing is it is just not tough enough for it's cost.
I haven't run it since the FAQ so I'm not sure how much prepared positions helps it (especially since I usually deployed it behind LoS anyway), but these super expensive tank/transports tend to centralize so much of your points that it seems so dangerous to commit to it in any real competitive sense.
Been seeing a lot of hordes locally, so I ran a couple dakka ones with 5 fragstorm, twin heavy bolter, double onslaughts, the extra stubber, and the baked in krakstorm. That was 5D6 bolter shots, 24 heavy bolter shots, 2 krak grenades, and the stubber at str 4 ap -1.
I wish I could convince myself to run them much, much more often. It was fun basically out-Orking the Orks. But I'm not hurting for that type of firepower...I'm hurting for effective anti-tank, and the damn thing has a target on its back the moment its deployed because its a huge chunk of points, not particularly resilient at its pricepoint, and is a transport so it's usually carrying something that benefits from being protected (which usually means its expensive...)
IMO - double repulsor and guilliman is the strongest marine force you can run.
prepared positions Can be helpful for them but like you said they were starting in cover anyways. If will be a lot easier to get them within fragstorm range turn 1 now though.
They are basically the only mobile gun platform that can get GMan where he wants to be reliably and their damage rerolling hits and wounds is insane. Keeping repulsors alive is the problem. Really what we need is a price point where we can reliably bring 3 of them. I think they need to drop 40-50 points.
And even with that price drop they need a 5++ save.
Also - Just take the 4 las version if you are hurting for multi damage.
Xenomancers wrote: IMO - double repulsor and guilliman is the strongest marine force you can run.
prepared positions Can be helpful for them but like you said they were starting in cover anyways. If will be a lot easier to get them within fragstorm range turn 1 now though.
They are basically the only mobile gun platform that can get GMan where he wants to be reliably and their damage rerolling hits and wounds is insane. Keeping repulsors alive is the problem. Really what we need is a price point where we can reliably bring 3 of them. I think they need to drop 40-50 points.
And even with that price drop they need a 5++ save.
Also - Just take the 4 las version if you are hurting for multi damage.
They don't need both a price drop and a 5++, one of the reasons lascannons etc don't work is the prevalence of invulnerable saves which required mortal wounds to fix which has now lead to everyone without a FNP rule being susceptible to mortal wound spam.
A 2+ maybe but the game needs less invulnerable saves and less mortal wounds.
However most marine vehicals need a price drop or 2+ save as they are over paying heavily right now Compaired to IG and Aeldari.
Xenomancers wrote: IMO - double repulsor and guilliman is the strongest marine force you can run.
prepared positions Can be helpful for them but like you said they were starting in cover anyways. If will be a lot easier to get them within fragstorm range turn 1 now though.
They are basically the only mobile gun platform that can get GMan where he wants to be reliably and their damage rerolling hits and wounds is insane. Keeping repulsors alive is the problem. Really what we need is a price point where we can reliably bring 3 of them. I think they need to drop 40-50 points.
And even with that price drop they need a 5++ save.
Also - Just take the 4 las version if you are hurting for multi damage.
They don't need both a price drop and a 5++, one of the reasons lascannons etc don't work is the prevalence of invulnerable saves which required mortal wounds to fix which has now lead to everyone without a FNP rule being susceptible to mortal wound spam.
A 2+ maybe but the game needs less invulnerable saves and less mortal wounds.
However most marine vehicals need a price drop or 2+ save as they are over paying heavily right now Compaired to IG and Aeldari.
There is something worth shooting a reroll hit and wounds lascannon at in every army. Yeah - invo saves are out of control. Plus they aren't being properly charged for. Lascannons are still great though.
footfoe wrote: How bad is it to run Ultramarines without Gman or Primaris? I don't want to use them for fluff reasons.
I got a storm raven, devs, a bunch of tactical marines, the other ultramarine characters, a contemptor dreadnought, and a predator. Should i just stop the bleeding and start over with something better or can i make this work?
My lists are all UM, Devs, Tacticals and some smattering of other things like Sternguard, Rhinos, etc. now, and I get by pretty well on it. I haven't felt the need to take any special characters yet, and instead just fork over the CP to upgrade a generic Captain to a Chapter Master, and run a Lieutenant to get my re-rolls.
Right now my Devastators are leveraging lots of Plasma Cannons plus a Heavy Bolter and a Missile Launcher for the Stratagems. Then I keep them in range of the Relic Banner so they can shoot more as they die. Those guys do tons of damage for me.
If you want to boost your list with characters, but avoid Gman, then Calgar could be a good option. While both his stats and buffing abilities pale in comparison to Guilliman, Calgs can fill a similar role if you want to save the points.
You're basically doing the same thing with your devs and banner that are done with the better Primaris units (which has much less stratagem support), so you aren't actually missing much. Intercessors tend to be better than tacticals, but neither are as good as scouts, so if you're finding your tacs are doing enough for you then it's worth just sticking with that.
I see the value in the toughness of Intercessors but two things win out for me with Tacticals in comparison. The first is obviously the access to Specials/Heavies, which gives the Tacticals an edge when fighting higher value targets. The second is access to Transports, which gives them some more interesting abilities on the tabletop while Intercessors have to huff it anywhere. The play using Rhinos and squads can allow for some unique opportunities.
As a side note, one thing I've noticed locally is that nobody mixes Primaris and standard marines. I wonder what GW thinks of that.
Are Veterans with Storm Bolters and STorm shields good as a "body Guard" Unit ot protect characters?
If so, I am looking at bits bashing, i notice the stormshield and storm bolter are both right handed weapons. ANyone have any idea how to model this WYSIWYG?
Dynas wrote: Are Veterans with Storm Bolters and STorm shields good as a "body Guard" Unit ot protect characters?
If so, I am looking at bits bashing, i notice the stormshield and storm bolter are both right handed weapons. ANyone have any idea how to model this WYSIWYG?
Use the GK Strike Squad Storms and use a knife to scrape off the fancy designs. You could also use the FW boarding shields upgrades as those are left handed. There's a few options for you.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also they really aren't a good bodyguard but probably the best source for pure Storm Bolters.
Dynas wrote: Are Veterans with Storm Bolters and STorm shields good as a "body Guard" Unit ot protect characters?
If so, I am looking at bits bashing, i notice the stormshield and storm bolter are both right handed weapons. ANyone have any idea how to model this WYSIWYG?
Use the Vanguard Veteran kits, those Storm Shields are on the left hand.
I don't think Space Marine Veterans are good body guard to the HQs, their "Look out Sir" is the trash version compare to what Tau and DG have. However, if you take Veteran on Bikes from the Index, and loadout as what you proposed, max up the number for the unit and give them Ultramarine CT, it can be a great anti-horde unit with pretty good mobility and resilence. Of course, unless you run into massed flying units with mortal wound spam. But as Space Marines, you are likely gonna to lose against that kind of army anyway no matter what you do.
Hi guy's. Looking for some advice from people actually played 8th edition with space marines.
I'm currently starting a space marine army. I know it's not the best codex right now but I would like it to be as competative as it can be. Looking at what kind of an army I would like to play two chapter tactics look appealing to me.
1. Ultramarines, CT looks good but the real benefit using UM seems to be to take Bobby G.
2. Raven Guard, verry good Chapter Tactics. But build more to be a devensive, shooting army I think.
So I have a few questions.
1. What CT do you preffer and why?
2. How much better is Guilliman than for example Shriek+ a Luitanant?
3. Are there any list build that seem do o.k? Any units (including FW) worth looking into? How are Sicaran tanks these days for example?
Raven Guard, because Guilli lists are a bore to play. If you value winning over enjoyment, go Ultramarines. That's obviously subjective, but I think it holds up to scrutiny, due to the necessity of castling up around the primarch to justify his high cost with maximum buffing.
some of your best units are bare-bone scouts, Dev squads with heavy bolter & misslie launcher to double-tap with mortal wound strats, leviathan dreads, captains with hammer and jump pack, asscan razorbacks, librarians from different chapters to stack the various disciplines, Deredeo dreads, Xiphons, and yes Sicarians are pretty good too. (Hellblasters with Ancients are powerful but fairly easy to counter, so don't make the list imo.) This could all change significantly with the upcoming chapter approved, though.
Finally, I recommend you paint your own colourscheme and run a successor chapter, as that will allow you to switch up CTs as you see fit, which makes your army a bit future-proof.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Guilli is way better than an LT, by the way, because of the effect he has when the gun you're firing is outmatched by the toughness of the target. Assault Cannons, for example, shooting at a Knight will force 3.6 saves with a Captain & LT bubble, compared to 5.9 with Big Blue. That's not quite double, but it is a big differenceq, especially when you're firing, say, 3 Razorbacks for 10.8 vs 17.7 forced saves...
Combine that with the importance of rate of fire (to help you overcome the many high-invuln units out there), and you start to get a picture of why Guilli is such hot stuff. He's a simply amazing counter-assualt unit too, boyyy his sword does work.
In that same boat too.
I am playing Black Templar so they are at a bit of disadvantage.
My friend plays Orks and with the new codex I got my butt handed to me in our last game.
Between "Teleportas" and "Da Jump" it gets really nasty with Ork instant assaults.
I pretty much found any kind of assault cannon seems to be the way to go, Auto-cannons is a good runner-up.
As mentioned 'bubble-wrap" became mandatory.
I was told I need to field 10 man squads or even the extra huge crusader squads... no.
Instead of 5 guys being eaten, 5 will and another five will run away re-rolls or not.
Marines are just freaking expensive in points and evaporate to buckets of melee dice at S4.
PLUS since blobs are so big, they declare an assault, contact say the squad in the middle and then pile-in move into other squads nearby on either side.
The trick is, it is quite difficult to get into a position to assault the Orks first, and there is little reply if they jump you first.
Flamers become a good means of sticking it to them but is rather ineffective for thinning the herd.
The StormRaven did very well till it got in range of Tankbustas... nasty.
Anyone have the answer to the rampaging hordes with a BT army or any non-Guiliman list?
Your best bet is Command Squads with Storm Bolters and Chainswords. That's literally it.
You can also ally in Deathwatch and take advantage of their Strategem to hit their charge. I know that's not an answer in the main codex though.
Lastly, how about the best source of Heavy Bolters available? Tarantula Sentry Guns are only 37 a pop for T5 W4 and a twin Heavy Bolter. When they're that cheap, you don't even care about the BS4+.
I'd hold off right now in regards to painting (if you're going to paint a specific chapter) until CA is down.
The leaks we are starting to get are starting to sound interesting, and it feels like Raven Guard are going to get kicked even harder with the removal of the -1 to hit trait.
faithonwings wrote: Hi guy's. Looking for some advice from people actually played 8th edition with space marines.
I'm currently starting a space marine army. I know it's not the best codex right now but I would like it to be as competative as it can be. Looking at what kind of an army I would like to play two chapter tactics look appealing to me.
1. Ultramarines, CT looks good but the real benefit using UM seems to be to take Bobby G.
2. Raven Guard, verry good Chapter Tactics. But build more to be a devensive, shooting army I think.
So I have a few questions.
1. What CT do you preffer and why?
2. How much better is Guilliman than for example Shriek+ a Luitanant?
3. Are there any list build that seem do o.k? Any units (including FW) worth looking into? How are Sicaran tanks these days for example?
How competitive do you want to be? Local? ITC tourney?
What type of army do you want?
I play locally in a mixed group and I've done quite well with a shooty Power Armor swarm. I use UM tactics but no Guilliman, instead relying on a Chapter Master and Lt. to get my re-roll auras. Guilliman is good, but I don't like the model (or the concept), and he's really expensive anywyas, so I get by without him. I like UM tactics for two reasons. A: It's more similar to how ATSKNF used to work, and so I'm used to the way they play form prior experience, and B: I like shooting, and if a Raven Guard unit even gets touched, it can't shoot next turn, and that's a no-go for me.
In short my lists are lots of bodies, with lots of guns and lots of rerolls. Currently I'm running the Relic Banner, lots of Plasma Devastators, a bunch of Tacs and a bunch of Rhinos. I expect I'll be rearranging things after the Chapter Approved comes out, but I'll probably stick with the theme.
. . .
Always the best advice is to paint your models in your own scheme, that way you can be flexible as editions, options and metas change. My scheme is custom.
Anyone have the answer to the rampaging hordes with a BT army or any non-Guiliman list?
Thanks.
Posted a a salamander list a bit back that I've fought against orks hordes twice and won both times (using ITC mission types). In one game I killed 164 boy bodies. It was a bloody affair, all I had was an 8 wound knight, a venerable dread, a 5 man tac squad, a librarian, and a captain left over. But all he had was a squad of gretchin sitting on an objective in the corner.
Dealing with hordes is really just a question of how can you section out the enemy forces into bite sized chunks and completely destroy them. This is especially true against orks because of how neighboring mobs will affect leadership.
Marines have a couple ways of sectioning:
Scouts: Scouts are actually one of the best screening units in the game. They are a 55 point speed bump that can hold back entire mobs of boys. I always have at least two of them with BPCCWs. They can buy you the time you need.
Rhinos/Razors: As much as they're a bit overpriced rhinos are actually incredibly useful against boy hordes. They will protect your infantry from small arms, and after they disembark they can be used to either block. They can also be used to clip enemy mobs and make them useless. If you have a rhino and there is a 30 boy mob spread out across a front. Use the rhino and charge the corner of the formation (preferably the corner furthest from any PKs). You have now severely limited what that mob can do until the rhino dies.
Thunder Fire Cannon Strategem: Just pointing at squad and saying they aren't going to be in the fight (as long as you can hit) for another turn is a big deal.
Last stand: Sometimes you need to toss away one 5 man squad as a speed bump so you can get some space with the rest of your army.
After you section it becomes focusing down whats the most threatening unit, and the ones that you can leverage fire on.
Also (especially because your BT) don't be afraid to charge diminished ork squads. To win against those sort of hordes you have to be leveraging all the attacks from your model. The BT special strategem is also really synergistic with scouts against Da' Jump. 24" chance to deny on a 50% for 1 CP (or 75% for 2) can shut down a lot of the momentum before it gets started. If your using scouts as screens anyways it can kill two birds with one stone.
So I'm a bit out of the loop when it comes to space marine tactics. I'm currently building an Ultramarines primaris army, but I wanted to add some first company assets to it in the form of a vanguard detachment. I don't plan to run the first company I use competitively (I know that terminators aren't exactly a competitive choice) but I think that even in casual games I'm going to have to outfit them to the best possible way to get some good use from them.
I'm wanting to stay terminator focused with no more than 1 power armor veteran squad. I like terminators and want to use them.
I'm thinking no more than 1000 points, but regularly taken at 750.
So, my questions are:
1) what first company to use? I'm torn between Ultramarines, Death Wing and possibly Black Templars. The base of the army they will be fighting with will be my Primaris Ultramarines led by Guilliman and NuCalgar.
2) after answering #1, what kind of load out should I take on the squads?
If you wanna use First Company, just go with Vanguard and Sternguard. Neither are really great, but Vanguard with dual Chainswords actually have a role they fill.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: If you wanna use First Company, just go with Vanguard and Sternguard. Neither are really great, but Vanguard with dual Chainswords actually have a role they fill.
I use Vanguard only now, Sternguard are overcosted which make them also rubbish, they are maybe just a little less overcosted than Terminators....
I've decided to have a go at a slamander army and want to include vulkan. I'm a craftworlds player so not massively familiar with marines. What are good picks to take advantage of his flamer/melta buff? I wondered about two squads of devastators with four multi meltas in a castle, starting in a couple of razorbacks. But I'm sure there are better options I don't know about.
If your using Vulkan your usually gonna wanna get up in it with him. He's too expensive to just sit the backfield giving buffs.
I'd honestly take him with tac squad and razorbacks/rhinos
Tac squads are great in Salamanders because of their trait. Take the one special weapon and the one heavy weapon in every tac squad. Then combat squad when the game starts to allow the reroll on both.
Dreads are nice as well, as you can take the fist/melta cheap dreads and have them run up the board behind your rhinos/razerbacks.
Best ally for Salamanders is definately a Castellan Knight if your playing a passive style. If your playing an aggressive style go with some Custodes shield captains or Blood Angels deepstriking in for some massive beta striking though.
Thanks for the advice, tactical squads with melta or flamers does seem the best way to go. Four min squads with flamer and a combi flamer riding in a pair of rhinos seems to be the basis of a decent anti screen force.
Flamers are crap for clearing screens. If you wanna clear screens, you want to avoid Tactical Marines and use Company Vets with all Storm Bolters and Chainswords.
kingheff wrote: Thanks for the advice, tactical squads with melta or flamers does seem the best way to go. Four min squads with flamer and a combi flamer riding in a pair of rhinos seems to be the basis of a decent anti screen force.
For Salamanders Tacs, Meltas definitely. Flamers, sadly you should leave at home for now. Like Slayer says, Command Squads with Storm Bolters and Chainswords are great for clearing screens. Sternguard can double-duty here too, and you can round them out by taking their special guns instead.
kingheff wrote: Thanks for the advice, tactical squads with melta or flamers does seem the best way to go. Four min squads with flamer and a combi flamer riding in a pair of rhinos seems to be the basis of a decent anti screen force.
For Salamanders Tacs, Meltas definitely. Flamers, sadly you should leave at home for now. Like Slayer says, Command Squads with Storm Bolters and Chainswords are great for clearing screens. Sternguard can double-duty here too, and you can round them out by taking their special guns instead.
The only reason to take Sternguard in that situation is for either Heavy Bolters or Grav Cannons. Otherwise, they're identical except the Company Vets get free Chainswords.
Another aspect is the smaller starting squad size. You can have just 3 or 4 dudes in a squad. If you're rounding out a Brigade that can be important.
That's why I said double-duty. Sternguard w/ fancy bolters are still pretty good at clearing hordes, but they do better than Storm Bolters against more elite things, like Custodes, or models with a 2+ like marines in cover, or whatever.
That's why I said double-duty. Sternguard w/ fancy bolters are still pretty good at clearing hordes, but they do better than Storm Bolters against more elite things, like Custodes, or models with a 2+ like marines in cover, or whatever.
The amount isn't by enough that it warrants consideration. That's why it's determined by you wanting Heavy Weapons in your squad or not. Regarding Custodes though, it'll be Grav Cannons doing most of the work, and Imperial Fists/Iron Warriors will shoot up in popularity once we have confirmation about the army-wide -1 To Hit abilities (meaning what Marines in cover?)
kingheff wrote: Thanks for the advice, tactical squads with melta or flamers does seem the best way to go. Four min squads with flamer and a combi flamer riding in a pair of rhinos seems to be the basis of a decent anti screen force.
For Salamanders Tacs, Meltas definitely. Flamers, sadly you should leave at home for now. Like Slayer says, Command Squads with Storm Bolters and Chainswords are great for clearing screens. Sternguard can double-duty here too, and you can round them out by taking their special guns instead.
That's a shame, it's nice and thematic. Are tactical squads good at getting close enough to vehicles to make use of the meltas?
Blood Angels Assault Marines and Raptors aren't even good enough to do that with the amount of mobility they have. Hell, Drop Pods are gonna be 65 points or so, and they still wouldn't deliver Multi-Melta Devastators efficiently.
As people have said above, never use Multi-meltas or flamers. They are just bad unfortunately.
I've been running a salamander list using 5 tac squads running melta/combi-melta/chainsword. Plopping them in rhinos and sending them up the board. The rhinos protect the marines from anti-infantry fire while I run a knight to soak AT fire from the rhinos. If you aren't using a knight find something that is more immediately threatening to the enemy while also being somewhat durable (leviathans come to mind)
If you go with melta guns, you are ceding the fact that a lot of your damage is going to come turn 2. That's but it also means when you hit you need to be really aggressive.
The other problem you'll run into with a list like this is that rhinos and tacs aren't particularly point efficient if your just using their shooting stats. You will need to shoot big stuff with meltas, small stuff with bolters, and then charge the smaller stuff if they happen to be guardsmen or firewarriors. Rhinos with 2 stormbolters can provide some decent fire support against chaff but they can also be used to charge block and muck up units.
Some notes on positioning, Rhinos are great at absorbing smite spam, make sure they are closer to enemy psykers than your marine squads and more important units. They can also pop a 1 CP stratagem to ignore MWs on a 5+.
Also, krak grenades. The number of high value targets that I've finished with krak grenades is absurd. You'll be trying to get within 6 of targets anyways so don't forget them.
It's not a dissimilar way to how I run my eldar sometimes, with shuriken wave serpents carrying fire dragons and banshees or avengers.
I've been snouting around BattleScribe and venerable dreadnaughts with two twin auto cannons looks pretty tasty but looking at the store I'm not sure if you can build one from the kit?
faithonwings wrote: Hi guy's. Looking for some advice from people actually played 8th edition with space marines.
I'm currently starting a space marine army. I know it's not the best codex right now but I would like it to be as competative as it can be. Looking at what kind of an army I would like to play two chapter tactics look appealing to me.
1. Ultramarines, CT looks good but the real benefit using UM seems to be to take Bobby G.
2. Raven Guard, verry good Chapter Tactics. But build more to be a devensive, shooting army I think.
So I have a few questions.
1. What CT do you preffer and why?
2. How much better is Guilliman than for example Shriek+ a Luitanant?
3. Are there any list build that seem do o.k? Any units (including FW) worth looking into? How are Sicaran tanks these days for example?
Just do what I'm doing and many other players do
Paint how you'd like to paint your models - don't put any insta recognisable chapter marks on it.
And just flit between books.
I intend to have my Homebrew Chapter who'll flit between chapters with the odd unit painted to a specific requirement. E.g. a Deathwatch squad.
Regarding independent characters - still use them just change up the paint job.
Big Gully - that UM logo he has on him - just paint it as a wreath and it hides the big U
After all is said and done after chapter approved it still feels like were bottom tier. Guard, nids, and mechanicus all definitely moved up from higher mid tier to compete with dark eldar and eldar at the top.
