A leviathans stormcannons are good but a leviathan draws fire like few other units,(fireraptor pre nerf) it can tank a bit but be aware it's not guaranteed to be around turn 2.
I find my deredeo's anvilis auticannons are my go to bar pulling of nullzone and thunderhammers.
Ice_can wrote: A leviathans stormcannons are good but a leviathan draws fire like few other units,(fireraptor pre nerf) it can tank a bit but be aware it's not guaranteed to be around turn 2.
I find my deredeo's anvilis auticannons are my go to bar pulling of nullzone and thunderhammers.
It's not very fluffy but Raven Guard Leviathans seem good. T8 2+/4++ with -1 to hit isn't going to go down easily. There's also drop pods, which oddly are cheaper for Dreadnoughts than they are for infantry. 80 points to drop that mean mothernaught right in front of the enemy at full strength with all of its guns in range? Yeah, I think that'll do.
Ice_can wrote: A leviathans stormcannons are good but a leviathan draws fire like few other units,(fireraptor pre nerf) it can tank a bit but be aware it's not guaranteed to be around turn 2.
I find my deredeo's anvilis auticannons are my go to bar pulling of nullzone and thunderhammers.
It's not very fluffy but Raven Guard Leviathans seem good. T8 2+/4++ with -1 to hit isn't going to go down easily. There's also drop pods, which oddly are cheaper for Dreadnoughts than they are for infantry. 80 points to drop that mean mothernaught right in front of the enemy at full strength with all of its guns in range? Yeah, I think that'll do.
I didn't mean it's bad, just they tend to get focused down as they have a bit of a rep and only 24inch range heavy, moving means -1 to hit and you'll be moving turn 1 and turn 2 if your opponents any sence. Raven guard is defacto the only way to play marines.
With my Grey Knights pretty well crushed by GW, I'm ally shopping again. Does anyone know what are SM's best options for dealing with high T, good invulnerables save monsters like Mortarion and Tesseract Vaults?
Autocannons seem like they might work but I can't find any good platforms (4 shots on a Dread is a but too inefficient a way to get there).
You're gonna need to double up on the Autocannons there obviously. Otherwise, go for Dark Angels and ham up on the Strategem to make the Plasma stuff 3 damage.
I think leviathan dreads are a good autocannon platform. You basically get 10 autocannons, but with ap2 and only 24” range. That’s backed up by 3 HK missiles since the latest FAQ, and a couple of heavy flamers for when people try to charge you - which they will.
I think the one major weakness of leviathans is getting locked in cc. But if you play DA you get around this because you’ve got a stratagem to fire after falling back. Whatever charged you will pay for it, big time. This is really good because the leviathan is liable to be charged, due to going quite close to the bad guys. It’s a huge advantage to be able to just wander off and keep shooting.
Primark G wrote: Don’t they have to shoot the closest unit according to the FAQ?
Lascannons shoot at nearest vehicle and Heavy Bolters nearest infantry, which are the preferred targets for a unit like them anyway. Multi-Meltas (bad) and Assault Cannons (good) don't have the targeting restrictions but are limited by range.
Primark G wrote: Don’t they have to shoot the closest unit according to the FAQ?
Lascannons shoot at nearest vehicle and Heavy Bolters nearest infantry, which are the preferred targets for a unit like them anyway. Multi-Meltas (bad) and Assault Cannons (good) don't have the targeting restrictions but are limited by range.
To the extent than "nearest enemy vehicle" and "nearest enemy infantry" that your opponent can very often choose themselves is your preferred target, yes.
Primark G wrote: Don’t they have to shoot the closest unit according to the FAQ?
Lascannons shoot at nearest vehicle and Heavy Bolters nearest infantry, which are the preferred targets for a unit like them anyway. Multi-Meltas (bad) and Assault Cannons (good) don't have the targeting restrictions but are limited by range.
To the extent than "any vehicle" and "any infantry" that your opponent can very often choose themselves is your preferred target, yes.
It's a false caveat, as there is little infantry the Heavy Bolter Sentry will be ineffective against as the Heavy Bolter is no longer terrible. I'll grant you the Lascannon one but I advise against that one, even though it is a cheap source of Lascannons for the price
Primark G wrote: Don’t they have to shoot the closest unit according to the FAQ?
Lascannons shoot at nearest vehicle and Heavy Bolters nearest infantry, which are the preferred targets for a unit like them anyway. Multi-Meltas (bad) and Assault Cannons (good) don't have the targeting restrictions but are limited by range.
To the extent than "any vehicle" and "any infantry" that your opponent can very often choose themselves is your preferred target, yes.
It's a false caveat, as there is little infantry the Heavy Bolter Sentry will be ineffective against as the Heavy Bolter is no longer terrible. I'll grant you the Lascannon one but I advise against that one, even though it is a cheap source of Lascannons for the price
My point was that your opponent frequently has the opportunity to pick your target, so I edited "any" to "nearest" just to make it clearer. Unless your opponent hasn't moved, or absolutely has to move his guy closest to where you've deployed, they're basically picking what your sentries are shooting at.
It's not so much Heavy Bolters struggling against infantry (they're great against most infantry units) as it is your guns not being able to target a key unit you need to kill, for example when you need to clear a particular screening unit or shoot a unit off a key objective.
Leviathans are an excellent source of high S firepower for targeting units w invuln saves. Smurphs is nice but I feel like it's pretty situational - I'd rather RG or run DA for unsupported rerolls and the fallback and shoot stratagem for when needed. If running DA you could also add a darkshroud for -1 to hit. I'd also run a cc lieutenant for wound rerolls and some counterattack capability
Primark G wrote: Don’t they have to shoot the closest unit according to the FAQ?
Lascannons shoot at nearest vehicle and Heavy Bolters nearest infantry, which are the preferred targets for a unit like them anyway. Multi-Meltas (bad) and Assault Cannons (good) don't have the targeting restrictions but are limited by range.
To the extent than "any vehicle" and "any infantry" that your opponent can very often choose themselves is your preferred target, yes.
It's a false caveat, as there is little infantry the Heavy Bolter Sentry will be ineffective against as the Heavy Bolter is no longer terrible. I'll grant you the Lascannon one but I advise against that one, even though it is a cheap source of Lascannons for the price
My point was that your opponent frequently has the opportunity to pick your target, so I edited "any" to "nearest" just to make it clearer. Unless your opponent hasn't moved, or absolutely has to move his guy closest to where you've deployed, they're basically picking what your sentries are shooting at.
It's not so much Heavy Bolters struggling against infantry (they're great against most infantry units) as it is your guns not being able to target a key unit you need to kill, for example when you need to clear a particular screening unit or shoot a unit off a key objective.
It's either the screening units or the infiltrating units that are closest. If they aren't, that's gonna usually mean your opening to get in is good.
Primark G wrote: Don’t they have to shoot the closest unit according to the FAQ?
Lascannons shoot at nearest vehicle and Heavy Bolters nearest infantry, which are the preferred targets for a unit like them anyway. Multi-Meltas (bad) and Assault Cannons (good) don't have the targeting restrictions but are limited by range.
To the extent than "any vehicle" and "any infantry" that your opponent can very often choose themselves is your preferred target, yes.
It's a false caveat, as there is little infantry the Heavy Bolter Sentry will be ineffective against as the Heavy Bolter is no longer terrible. I'll grant you the Lascannon one but I advise against that one, even though it is a cheap source of Lascannons for the price
My point was that your opponent frequently has the opportunity to pick your target, so I edited "any" to "nearest" just to make it clearer. Unless your opponent hasn't moved, or absolutely has to move his guy closest to where you've deployed, they're basically picking what your sentries are shooting at.
It's not so much Heavy Bolters struggling against infantry (they're great against most infantry units) as it is your guns not being able to target a key unit you need to kill, for example when you need to clear a particular screening unit or shoot a unit off a key objective.
It's either the screening units or the infiltrating units that are closest. If they aren't, that's gonna usually mean your opening to get in is good.
There isn't a downside.
Not always, if your opponent can have multiple screening units and you aren't guaranteed that the nearest one is the one you have the highest priority on removing.
Primark G wrote: Smurf Levi can fallback and still shoot at -1 to hit due to their CT.
That’s true. The guy said he was thinking of DAs, and my point was that that would work well.
The leviathan seems like a decent fit in my crimson fist army. Ignoring cover is pretty useful on those storm cannons, and if it soaks fire for the repulsors that’s a pretty good thing.
I think I’ve found that 3 tough vehicles is the point where they become really viable. Lots of people can kill one on turn 1, but I can survive that. Something is going to be dead if the other guy goes first, after all, regardless of whether you go for tanks or infantry. The important thing is that I’ve got enough still alive to be able to hit back with, and that seems to be the case.
The Mortis is tougher, can actually move, doesn't auto-die in CC, hits on 3+, benefits from CTs and can trigger Anicents Strat to become a baby Captain. It has no target restrictions.
So you should *never* take asscan tarantulas; they cost more than their equivalent on dreadnoughts and can be coutnerplayed because of their inability to move.
You shouldn't take lascan tarantuals because, even if you thought all the above advantages weren't worth 30pts, they have very limited targetting restrictions on a weapon that really beenfits from target selection.
You *might* want to take HB tarantulas, because they save you 35pts and have good range. They're literally the only tarantula you should consider taking over a mortis. Really, I think the only reason to consider tarantulas is to unlock brigades.
grouchoben wrote: Really, I think the only reason to consider tarantulas is to unlock brigades.
Well yes. I think hey bolter tarantulas are sort of ok, but even they have a tough time competing with stuff like dakka inceptors. I do think the cheap brigade is their only real benefit.
The Mortis is tougher, can actually move, doesn't auto-die in CC, hits on 3+, benefits from CTs and can trigger Anicents Strat to become a baby Captain. It has no target restrictions.
So you should *never* take asscan tarantulas; they cost more than their equivalent on dreadnoughts and can be coutnerplayed because of their inability to move.
You shouldn't take lascan tarantuals because, even if you thought all the above advantages weren't worth 30pts, they have very limited targetting restrictions on a weapon that really beenfits from target selection.
You *might* want to take HB tarantulas, because they save you 35pts and have good range. They're literally the only tarantula you should consider taking over a mortis. Really, I think the only reason to consider tarantulas is to unlock brigades.
3x Heavy Bolter Taratula Sentry Guns is 111, or 2 points more than the Mortis. I kinda stopped reading after that as it's literally a 2 point difference. That's 18 shots and can be spread throughout your deployment zone.
Shame you stopped reading; I'll try and keep it short for you. Your 18 HBs score 9 hits; my BS3+ HB Mortis scores 8 hits. My Mortis can move, choose targets, retreat from or fight in CC, benefits from CTs and can trigger reroll 1s strat. HB is the best of all the weapons in a straight up comparison with Mortis; the others are trash.
Automatically Appended Next Post: There's only one reason to take Tarantulas as far as I can see - filling out a brigade.
grouchoben wrote: Shame you stopped reading; I'll try and keep it short for you. Your 18 HBs score 9 hits; my BS3+ HB Mortis scores 8 hits. My Mortis can move, choose targets, retreat from or fight in CC, benefits from CTs and can trigger reroll 1s strat. HB is the best of all the weapons in a straight up comparison with Mortis; the others are trash.
1. Mortis can't fight in combat to make it worth it, whereas anything in melee with Sentry Guns can be targeted by your other shooting models and can itself shoot those models foolishly engaging with it. You'd NEED to leave a combat with the Mortis. I don't care if the opponent engages a 37 point model.
2. The Mortis can only be in one spot. I can spread the Sentry Guns in three different places to deny Deep Strike and infiltrating units.
3. You really don't need much movement with a 36" gun.
4. I literally LOL'd that you brought up Wisdom Of The Ancients as a bonus. That's one of the worst Strategems in the game.
Traceoftoxin wrote: Also, as soon as the mortis moves, it shoots at the same BS as the tarantula.
thats not really true though, is it? The dread is moving because it can’t see the thing it wants dead. The tarantula might have the same BS as the dread at this point, but as it can’t see the target, who cares?
A quad hvy Boyer mortis costs about a third of the price of a leviathan. There’s not a lot of point comparing them.
I’d say that the mortis has kind of respectable firepower for its price. It makes for an ok pick if you find yourself with an odd number of points to fill. I’m sure that if I had one in my fists army it would do ok.
I quite like the option of using the index weapons to have a dread with twin autocannon and twin hvy bolter. It’s a fair bit more expensive than the quad bolter mortis though.
I really don’t like tarantulas though. They feel like easy kill points, and like they’ll spend their brief lives firing at the wrong stuff.
Traceoftoxin wrote: Also, as soon as the mortis moves, it shoots at the same BS as the tarantula.
thats not really true though, is it? The dread is moving because it can’t see the thing it wants dead. The tarantula might have the same BS as the dread at this point, but as it can’t see the target, who cares?
A quad hvy Boyer mortis costs about a third of the price of a leviathan. There’s not a lot of point comparing them.
I’d say that the mortis has kind of respectable firepower for its price. It makes for an ok pick if you find yourself with an odd number of points to fill. I’m sure that if I had one in my fists army it would do ok.
I quite like the option of using the index weapons to have a dread with twin autocannon and twin hvy bolter. It’s a fair bit more expensive than the quad bolter mortis though.
I really don’t like tarantulas though. They feel like easy kill points, and like they’ll spend their brief lives firing at the wrong stuff.
What's not true about it? If a selling point of the mortis is that it can move and has higher BS, but that if it moves it's the same BS as the tarantula, then that is an important point. It's still obviously better than being immobile, just like being T7 3+ is better than T5 4+.
Still, I've used tarantulas in dozens of games and never really had an issue with them being immobile. In fact, they almost never even get shot at, just because they're such a low threat target. Sometimes they get charged, but not usually.
I take them because I run a BT brigade and need the CP to offset the cost of a chapter master. I don't think they are, in a vacuum, particularly great. But they're definitely one of our best FA slots (Scout Bikes are probably our best), and are definitely our cheapest.
"I take them because I run a BT brigade and need the CP to offset the cost of a chapter master. I don't think they are, in a vacuum, particularly great. But they're definitely one of our best FA slots (Scout Bikes are probably our best), and are definitely our cheapest." Agreed, they're definitely the best option for what you're describing. They're not bad.
It's just that a very average unit competes with and beats them in most ways. Slayer, what's your problem with Wisdom of the Ancients strat, out of interest? Why does it make you laugh out loud? 6" reroll bubble is very handy on dakka dreads & castles if you have to lose captain coverage.
Wisdom Of The Ancients is ridiculously redundant. You're already gonna have enough rerolls from any Captains you're running, and then Ultramarines have a Strategem basically doing the same thing.
Any other codex besides Marines would be able to do something with an additional reroll bubble. With Marines, you already built around it and if your army is THAT broken up you're already losing most likely.
Wisdom of the Ancients is great, IMO. The UM Stratagem only affects one unit (gives no bubble), and captains are often elsewhere.
Ven Dreadnoughts with Wisdom is a dope combo. Amusingly the TL-Lascannon + Missile Launcher is cheaper than a Dred with TL-Lascannon and CCweapon, and they make a decent castle esp. with 2+ to hit rerolling 1s.
I like having the option for wisdom of the ancients. My captain has an occasional tendency to get himself killed, often after/during bashing things with the fist of vengeance. Having someone else who can produce a bubble effect for my hellblasters is very useful indeed.
I wouldn't say it's at the forefront of my mind when I include my leviathan or deredeo, but it's definitely a nice ability to have.
THUNDERHAMMER wrote: Ive recently started a necron army and found their thread ranking units incredibly helpful. Is there a place where marine units have been ranked?
There's a wee bit too much skub around here to do that. Mostly we agree on what to do with Necrons but trust me when I say these Marines threads are a whole different animal.
THUNDERHAMMER wrote: Ive recently started a necron army and found their thread ranking units incredibly helpful. Is there a place where marine units have been ranked?
I suspect that a number of posters here would argue that every single unit in the codex deserves between a C and an F.
THUNDERHAMMER wrote: Ive recently started a necron army and found their thread ranking units incredibly helpful. Is there a place where marine units have been ranked?
I suspect that a number of posters here would argue that every single unit in the codex deserves between a C and an F.
I feel the biggest problem is that they gave Codex Marines a whole bunch of gimmicks that dont synergize with the army as a whole.
In fact, I think that's the real problem with space marines. There is no real synergy in the army aside from take a captain get rerolls. Most Chapter Tactics do nothing to promote an overall army synergy. The "good" ones are those that mesh well with captains. When was the last time you saw someone field a chaplain seriously? What would you do to get your CT on your tanks? Or get something other than 6+FNP?
I tried fielding a Chaplain in my last game. He was a disappointment. Captain plus a LT would have done much the same, and more. For more points admittedly, but the Chaplain just felt useless in that game.
StarHunter25 wrote: I feel the biggest problem is that they gave Codex Marines a whole bunch of gimmicks that dont synergize with the army as a whole.
In fact, I think that's the real problem with space marines. There is no real synergy in the army aside from take a captain get rerolls. Most Chapter Tactics do nothing to promote an overall army synergy. The "good" ones are those that mesh well with captains. When was the last time you saw someone field a chaplain seriously? What would you do to get your CT on your tanks? Or get something other than 6+FNP?
I ran a chaplain for a while in a double battalion when I was still getting used to morale. But because I play UM, the Ld bonus didn't matter much. I did get off some crucial counter charges with him from time to time, but overall meh. His wargear options are restricted and I don't use anything that would benefit much from his re-rolls. I'd prefer a Chaplain over a second Captain, but . . .
The primaris chaplain benefits from having an actually-ok melee weapon and a 4++. I think it’s not inconceivable that you could find a use for him. He would do decent work in cc, so in a double battalion you could probably make use of him.
But yeah, he’s obviously way less good than a captain. If he let you reroll those 3s to hit for power fists it would help.
I sometimes use a powerfist chaplain with a unit of powerfist vanguards (striking from the shadows with jumppacks). His melee reroll offsets the -1 to hit of the fists, and fists are cheap, so it's a discount version of the Shrike + Thunderhammers unit.
But Shrike, or any chapter master, brings more versatility for not that much more cost.
In all honesty I really want to like the unit, but it leaves me with a nice try, but try harder next time. Now if a chaplin gave +1 to hit or +1A they would be auto include.
But right now like much of the codex it looks OK at first pass but when you start trying to make it work its just not quite right and doesn't synch up.
Primark G wrote: Chaplain dreadnaughts are really good now you might want to try one - I agree Chaplains aren’t very competitive.
I'm not opposed to buying FW at some point, but it would be a hefty investment for me. The Chaplain Dread, just like the Sicaran and Leviathan I want, are going on the list of stuff I hope to get "eventually"
I’m thinking 6, 9 or even 12 dreads, probably salamanders for the rerolls, some combination of regular, ironclad, venerable and mortis to keep the rule of 3?
Or are dreads just too fragile, even in large numbers?
Haven’t tried it, but I’m building a similar army for my Salamanders (designed for 30k but will be using in 40k). Not sure it’ll actually be all that good, but it does sound cool.
Dreadnought heavy list might work. But maybe not for Salamanders or even not Space Marines. I'd think best choice would be Space Wolf and Blood Angels.
The former can bring up to 3 Venerable Dreadnought w Axe and Shield, Bjorn and Murderfang. The later can bring Librarian Dread. Against such a list the shooty enemy have to eat throw 24 T7 Wounds with 3++/6+++ before they can get to those Dread who don't have an inv saves.
Outside of the two special Chapters, Ironhand might do "not bad" in Dread list despite the beating they take in the FAQ. However, it is better for the IH Dread to be Contemptor Dread or Leviathan Dread. So they have 5++ or 4++ on top of their CT giving them 6+++.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Salamanders get Bray'arth Ashmantle AKA "the Brick" though. Toughness 9 is hilarious.
3 Spearheads/Vanguards with him, Vulkan, and a Techmarine could be fun. Vulkan buffing Bray'arth and a melta Leviathan would be super murderous bonus points for throwing a chaplain dread in there with Armour Indomitus or the Salamanders Mantle
Automatically Appended Next Post: Spearhead
HQ Bray'arth
Chaplain Dread - (Anvil of Strength) AC, Salamander Mantle/Armour Indomitus
HEAVY SUPPORT
Mortis - 2x twin las
Mortis - 2x twin auto
Leviathan - melta, drill, 3 HKM
Vanguard
HQ Vulkan
Techmarine
ELITES
2x Ven Dread - twin las, twin auto
Ironclad - chainfist, hurricane bolter, 2 HKM
Comes to 2000 on the nose. Three S16-18 combat monsters, two of which can't be targeted, marching up the field is no joke. Expensive as all hell and probably not the best way to run it, but it'd be super fun
(Edit: 3-4 detatchments from my previous post was a bit ambitious )
Primark G wrote: Don’t they have to shoot the closest unit according to the FAQ?
Lascannons shoot at nearest vehicle and Heavy Bolters nearest infantry, which are the preferred targets for a unit like them anyway. Multi-Meltas (bad) and Assault Cannons (good) don't have the targeting restrictions but are limited by range.
HB tarantula must shoot closest enemy INFANTRY
LC tarantula must shoot closest enemy non-INFANTRY
Other tarantulas must shoot closest enemy unit
Not having a HB or LC doesn't exempt them from the Automated Artillery rule.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Salamanders get Bray'arth Ashmantle AKA "the Brick" though. Toughness 9 is hilarious.
3 Spearheads/Vanguards with him, Vulkan, and a Techmarine could be fun. Vulkan buffing Bray'arth and a melta Leviathan would be super murderous bonus points for throwing a chaplain dread in there with Armour Indomitus or the Salamanders Mantle
Automatically Appended Next Post: Spearhead
HQ Bray'arth
Chaplain Dread - (Anvil of Strength) AC, Salamander Mantle/Armour Indomitus
ELITES
Mortis - 2x twin las
Mortis - 2x twin auto
Leviathan - melta, drill, 3 HKM
Vanguard
HQ Vulkan
Techmarine
ELITES
2x Ven Dread - twin las, twin auto
Ironclad - chainfist, hurricane bolter, 2 HKM
Comes to 2000 on the nose. Three S16-18 combat monsters, two of which can't be targeted, marching up the field is no joke. Expensive as all hell and probably not the best way to run it, but it'd be super fun
(Edit: 3-4 detatchments from my previous post was a bit ambitious )
Leviathans and Mortis dreads are heavy support, not elite, though that's not a huge problem.
I'd probably put in a Deredeo with the 6" 5++ bubble.
This could be a fun list, but clearly it's got limitations. One of these is its ability to move around the battlefield. I think I'd generally focus on having more, cheaper dreads than are in this list. 3 normal contemptors would probably be the first pick I'd make. Maybe a couple of normal dreads with twin heavy bolters and autocannons (using the Index weapon options).
I typically use a Chaplain Dread in my lists, and a benefit of the Stratagem is that he keeps up pretty well with Rhinos/Razors and gives those plasma Tacticals a reroll aura. Captain and Lt hang with the static element of my army.
On Tarantulas they are, of course, only used to fill Brigades. For that, there is nothing better unless you just randomly have extra points in a Brigade. Also their deployment should be considered in other situations as well. They are exactly what their name suggests... sentries. Stick them on home objectives (I usually place mine close to center field anyways) or use them as a screen and they are cheap, with decent firepower. I use the TAC ones because that is what my Razorback turrets are, otherwise I would choose the HB ones since the price on the TAC went up.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Salamanders get Bray'arth Ashmantle AKA "the Brick" though. Toughness 9 is hilarious.
3 Spearheads/Vanguards with him, Vulkan, and a Techmarine could be fun. Vulkan buffing Bray'arth and a melta Leviathan would be super murderous bonus points for throwing a chaplain dread in there with Armour Indomitus or the Salamanders Mantle
Automatically Appended Next Post: Spearhead
HQ Bray'arth
Chaplain Dread - (Anvil of Strength) AC, Salamander Mantle/Armour Indomitus
ELITES
Mortis - 2x twin las
Mortis - 2x twin auto
Leviathan - melta, drill, 3 HKM
Vanguard
HQ Vulkan
Techmarine
ELITES
2x Ven Dread - twin las, twin auto
Ironclad - chainfist, hurricane bolter, 2 HKM
Comes to 2000 on the nose. Three S16-18 combat monsters, two of which can't be targeted, marching up the field is no joke. Expensive as all hell and probably not the best way to run it, but it'd be super fun
(Edit: 3-4 detatchments from my previous post was a bit ambitious )
Leviathans and Mortis dreads are heavy support, not elite, though that's not a huge problem.
I'd probably put in a Deredeo with the 6" 5++ bubble.
This could be a fun list, but clearly it's got limitations. One of these is its ability to move around the battlefield. I think I'd generally focus on having more, cheaper dreads than are in this list. 3 normal contemptors would probably be the first pick I'd make. Maybe a couple of normal dreads with twin heavy bolters and autocannons (using the Index weapon options).
Oh whoops, I labelled it as a spearhead, just wrote the wrong thing above the units. If you could find the points, the 5++ Deredeo on the back line would be a good call! and yeah I totally agree! more cheaper dreads would definitely be the way to go if genuinely considering a full dread list.
Crazyterran wrote:Obviously should play a spearhead with Culln as the HQ, 3 leviathans and 3 contemptor mortis.
Use whichever tactics. Ultramarines, since you cant use the Salamanders relic/wlt with Culln thanks to the FAQ.
Though if you are already playing our brothers from Nocturne, Brayarth is the way to go for sure.
If you're not running venerables or relic contemptors, iron hands could be a good tactic. I'd probably go salamanders though, even without the relic and trait. If you kept things cheap you could even fit a chaplain dread in there and run it as two spearheads instead
Really pretty straight-forward. Kinda spammy, but that is Marines for you. Heckblasters with a Cap and Looie for max potential. Trio of ABs to go hunt down tanks. Scouts to space out and keep deep strikers in check, while the Intercessors form up behind and shoot stuff and hold objectives. Trio of Aggressors that Strike from the Shadows to apply early pressure - and a Cap that can go with them to boost their shooting potential a bit. Could even make that Cap a Chapter Master for the extra buff. With 15CP to burn, the list won't sweat losing 7 out of the gate, right?
Not sure how this list would actually hold up in a competitive/tourney environment, but I like the idea of it a lot and I have a good chunk of it already purchased.
I was thinking salamanders mainly because I have a pile of leftover Black Reach dreads (MM and DCCW) that I'm not using with my RG. The Salamanders CT makes single-shot dread MMs less painful, even if Vulkan isn't around.
And even though a quad lascannon or autocannon mortis only gets the one reroll, that typically turns the 2-miss volley into a 1-miss volley.
Then obviously some ironclads would benefit with rerolls both on the first-turn volley of HKMs, and then either Vulkan or the flamer strat if they're packing dual heavy flamers.
With three of each, those numbers really start to add up.
I'd personally drop the attack bikes and move to 2 battalions. 13 CP would be plenty. I also don't really see the point of camo cloaks, but that's just a personal preference. At most, you'd be looking at using SftS 4 times with that list, maybe 5, due to the new points and power level restriction. This leaves you 8-9 cp left for whatever else you want to do - which would likely just be standard re-rolls anyway, which you have the Captains and Lieutenant for.
After getting a 2nd Lieutenant you'd have 108 points left over, so you could add something in there, or you could drop the 3rd Hellblaster squad for some plasma Inceptors etc.
That or, you could combine some of the squads to help reduce the amount of drops.
Anti-tank will prob be a problem, but, also, 3 multi-melta attack bikes aren't going to solve that problem for you either.
Really pretty straight-forward. Kinda spammy, but that is Marines for you. Heckblasters with a Cap and Looie for max potential. Trio of ABs to go hunt down tanks. Scouts to space out and keep deep strikers in check, while the Intercessors form up behind and shoot stuff and hold objectives. Trio of Aggressors that Strike from the Shadows to apply early pressure - and a Cap that can go with them to boost their shooting potential a bit. Could even make that Cap a Chapter Master for the extra buff. With 15CP to burn, the list won't sweat losing 7 out of the gate, right?
Not sure how this list would actually hold up in a competitive/tourney environment, but I like the idea of it a lot and I have a good chunk of it already purchased.
Thoughts? Ideas?
I don't think you need to go for a brigade. By doing so, you're buying "tax" units that you don't want - mainly in your fast attack slot. There are more troops than you really need as well. I'd go for a battalion instead, maybe with a spearhead and/or vanguard if you actually need a 3rd HQ. I think your best bet might be to just have two captains, to give good coverage for all your hellblasters, and leave it at that.
Post FAQ I don't think there's any need for scouts for ravenguard. Maybe one unit, to secure a spot for your SftS guys. And they absolutely don't need camo cloaks.
On the other hand if you're set on using a brigade, scout bikers are pretty good. These would make a good exchange for the attack bikes, and dropping the camo cloaks would get you the points you need to do that.
I don't think you've got enough anti tank. I'd probably look to add some, probably by adding more hellblasters. Assault hellblasters are really good for ravenguard, because they can fire at full effect from a safer distance.
Intercessor squads should always have auxiliary grenade launchers.
Post FAQ I don't think there's any need for scouts for ravenguard. Maybe one unit, to secure a spot for your SftS guys. And they absolutely don't need camo cloaks.
On the other hand if you're set on using a brigade, scout bikers are pretty good. These would make a good exchange for the attack bikes, and dropping the camo cloaks would get you the points you need to do that.
Scout Bikers are fantastic, I agree.
As for needing Scouts, I think 2 units of 7 generally works well. 1(well technically 0) would do the trick against most armies, but, when you come up against other Scouts, Nurglings and Stealth T’au units having that extra unit to claim a secondary drop area option is really helpful.
It also helps deny drop areas for Alpha Legion, Rangers, Admech etc as well.
Post FAQ I don't think there's any need for scouts for ravenguard. Maybe one unit, to secure a spot for your SftS guys. And they absolutely don't need camo cloaks.
On the other hand if you're set on using a brigade, scout bikers are pretty good. These would make a good exchange for the attack bikes, and dropping the camo cloaks would get you the points you need to do that.
Scout Bikers are fantastic, I agree.
As for needing Scouts, I think 2 units of 7 generally works well. 1(well technically 0) would do the trick against most armies, but, when you come up against other Scouts, Nurglings and Stealth T’au units having that extra unit to claim a secondary drop area option is really helpful.
It also helps deny drop areas for Alpha Legion, Rangers, Admech etc as well.
Yeah those are good points. One odd thing is that deploying scouts makes almost no difference to other people's scouts, as they have no restriction against deploying near enemy models. As far as I can tell, there might not even be a restriction on setting them up in melee - though that's arguably fixed by the rules on how you can get into close combat.
Nothing else works like that, so far as I know. Most other "infiltrating" units have a rule saying they can't be within 9" of the enemy, but scouts don't. I think this kind of thing shows that getting rid of USRs was a really bad idea. Instead of just knowing that a unit can infiltrate, we have loads of people sneaking around the battlefield before the game starts, then appearing in all kinds of different ways once the game begins. Instead of learning one USR we have to learn loads of subtly-different rules.
The second and third ones are easy and straight-forward.
For anti-tank, what would work? With RG, seems like anything that benefits from the CT makes sense. Do Lascannon Devs work?
Also, thoughts on using the Chapter Maser strat to buff my Captain who I will SftS up with the Aggressors to give them re-rolls. Or would the Captains Rites be sufficient generally?
Here is a tentative re-write, based on the input thus far:
Spoiler:
Raven Guard Battalion +5CP
HQ: Primaris Captain [StfS] MC ABR, Power sword Armour Indomitus [95]
Switch one Lascannon in each of the Devastator squads into a Heavy Bolter and take advantage of the Helfire Strategem. That saves enough points for an additional meatshield in each of those Sqauds too.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Switch one Lascannon in each of the Devastator squads into a Heavy Bolter and take advantage of the Helfire Strategem. That saves enough points for an additional meatshield in each of those Sqauds too.
You can only use it once per shooting phase, so I guess I could swap one out. I could toss a Scout and have enough points for one ablative dude per Dev squad.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Switch one Lascannon in each of the Devastator squads into a Heavy Bolter and take advantage of the Helfire Strategem. That saves enough points for an additional meatshield in each of those Sqauds too.
You can only use it once per shooting phase, so I guess I could swap one out. I could toss a Scout and have enough points for one ablative dude per Dev squad.
You'll want to do two to get the Cherub bonus twice. Then those saved points are an extra bullet catcher.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Switch one Lascannon in each of the Devastator squads into a Heavy Bolter and take advantage of the Helfire Strategem. That saves enough points for an additional meatshield in each of those Sqauds too.
You can only use it once per shooting phase, so I guess I could swap one out. I could toss a Scout and have enough points for one ablative dude per Dev squad.
You'll want to do two to get the Cherub bonus twice. Then those saved points are an extra bullet catcher.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Switch one Lascannon in each of the Devastator squads into a Heavy Bolter and take advantage of the Helfire Strategem. That saves enough points for an additional meatshield in each of those Sqauds too.
You can only use it once per shooting phase, so I guess I could swap one out. I could toss a Scout and have enough points for one ablative dude per Dev squad.
You'll want to do two to get the Cherub bonus twice. Then those saved points are an extra bullet catcher.
Elaborate.
You can use the Cherub to shoot the stratagem twice for one CP (it's in the latest FAQ). Since you only get one Cherub per Dev Squad, you want one HB in each so you can do this for two phases for max value.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Switch one Lascannon in each of the Devastator squads into a Heavy Bolter and take advantage of the Helfire Strategem. That saves enough points for an additional meatshield in each of those Sqauds too.
You can only use it once per shooting phase, so I guess I could swap one out. I could toss a Scout and have enough points for one ablative dude per Dev squad.
You'll want to do two to get the Cherub bonus twice. Then those saved points are an extra bullet catcher.
Elaborate.
You can use the Cherub to shoot the stratagem twice for one CP (it's in the latest FAQ). Since you only get one Cherub per Dev Squad, you want one HB in each so you can do this for two phases for max value.
What are people's thoughts on best warlord traits? Previously I was thinking, I'm running a gunline with many assault cannons, so Storm of Fire, duh. But, after a lot of list revisions I really don't get much out of Storm of Fire anymore. Lacannons and hellblasters are plenty high AP and are more likely to bump up against invulnerables. Best case it'd help me with 2-3 twin autos, 1 heavy bolter, and some HK missile shots at 3+ tanks.
Despite still running a gunline, I'm now thinking maybe run Imperium's Sword on my Captain to buff his counter charge smashing? Can I do even better with something else?
Primark G wrote: SoF is really good. I use the one that gets back CPs for my Smurfs.
Yeah, if I had that CP one available, I'd use it.
Storm of Fire seems like an adequate fallback pick, but in my current list it's averaging about 1 useful -1AP per round, maybe 2 in round 1. That's not so hot. However, I'm also not running a list built around assault, so my hammer captain is probably only going to get that +1A on a charge once per game...
Storm of fire works well if you can get killshot to work. The +1 to wound means that the additional AP procs on 5+ and if your running the dakka loadout (which is what I've been leaning towards) the additional AP on 2/4 damage weapons vs MCs or vehicles with 3+/5++ profiles is great.
As for dreadnoughts. I've been running double Ironclads in the past couple games, and they also die but they are always worth it. Running them as RG for the -1 to hit and they soak so much fire its absurd. If you get first turn you may also want to advance and pop smoke for a -2 to hit.
I've been wanting to try a list with nothing but T8+ Filled out with ironclads, vindicators, a knight, Big daddy Bray'arth in a drop pod, and a librarian with a JP and MoH.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Is anyone else a little peeved here after seeing the reveals for Deathwatch?
No? I think Deathwatch with allies could end up being stronger than most Space Marine builds, but I wouldn't say that makes me "peeved." I'm not getting upset just because someone else got nicer toys.
Crimson wrote: It is quite surreal though how much better the DW Intercessors are for mere one point.
From competitive perspective I see no reason to ever use Primaris models as anything other than Death Watch.
Technically it's two points, as there is a point for the Bolt Rifles and the point for their Bolt Pistols. They functionally have a single attack at S4 AP-2 in melee or a poison round.
So basically at original price, when they were just mediocre, they became super functional on offense.
Technically it's two points, as there is a point for the Bolt Rifles and the point for their Bolt Pistols.
I too assumed that this would be the case, except all the reviews and say they're 19 points, so either those people made a mistake or the pistol is free.
Technically it's two points, as there is a point for the Bolt Rifles and the point for their Bolt Pistols.
I too assumed that this would be the case, except all the reviews and say they're 19 points, so either those people made a mistake or the pistol is free.
Well if Bolt Pistols are free then my life is complete and I'll be doing Deathwatch from here on out.
Not that it was the deciding factor of course. I mean I'll still use part of my Astral Claws list for artillery and Scouts, but the rest of the list will be Deathwatch I'm thinking. No point to Sternguard at this point is my feeling.
Not that it was the deciding factor of course. I mean I'll still use part of my Astral Claws list for artillery and Scouts, but the rest of the list will be Deathwatch I'm thinking. No point to Sternguard at this point is my feeling.
Well, yeah. It is nice that Deathwatch has some solid options, but at the same time it is a shame that they basically make obsolete huge chunks of the vanilla codex...
Not that it was the deciding factor of course. I mean I'll still use part of my Astral Claws list for artillery and Scouts, but the rest of the list will be Deathwatch I'm thinking. No point to Sternguard at this point is my feeling.
Well, yeah. It is nice that Deathwatch has some solid options, but at the same time it is a shame that they basically make obsolete huge chunks of the vanilla codex...
It isn't like those things were super viable in the first place. It just means this codex was written a lot better outside some clear issues (HQ units not getting Bikes because reasons, for example). ANYWAY...
This'll likely be my Space Marine half to whatever the Deathwatch will bring forth. I'm thinking a battalion of strictly artillery and range support while everyone else closes in. MAYBE something like this for me:
x1 Huron
x1 Lt w/ Power Fist and Primarch's Wrath
x3 5 Shotgun Scouts
x2 Quad Launcher Rapiers
x1 Thunderfire Cannon
I can always add a Damocles for another distraction and additional mortal wounds, or my ever beloved Sentry Turrets, but that's only an initial investment of 746 points. A Damocles will make that 868, and the Sentry Guns is 979. So I would get:
1. Denial to my deployment zone via Scouts and Sentry Guns
2. Access to Quake Shells as an emergency, as otherwise another Rapier would service better
3. A total of 2 Orbital Bombardments + Huron's ability to nuke a unit
4. A Rhino to throw at the enemy to make things not shoot as it has no other purpose
5. Huron giving a command point because he'd be the Warlord, though of course a Deathwatch dude can give me the possibility to recycle so...
That's a lot of anti-infantry and the several spammed mortal wounds can help down bigger targets. Then afterwards Deathwatch do their surgical strike.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Is anyone else a little peeved here after seeing the reveals for Deathwatch?
Yes and no. The point premium for their special wargear seems well worth it. However, it's on top of units most people here consider slightly overpriced, so the end result still doesn't seem wildly good and it cuts into their numbers even further. They also give up chapter tactics for them. That stuff sounds cool, but not so hands down better than I'm pissed over it. I was more annoyed with BA than with Deathwatch so far. That was like, here, take the vanilla unit list at the same costs and add these extra super killy CC options and good named chars on top.
However, Deathwatch bikes sounded amazing if I heard it right. Vets with their 2A stats, the ability to take cc weapons (like free chainswords), the ability to fall back and charge, and special issue ammo for 27pts each instead of the vanilla bikers at 25 with 1A? That is a crazy good bonus for +2pts and implies vanilla bikers are horribly overcosted/underpowered. I was never super keen on SM biker models, but if I was, that sounds incredible.
I was also sad for the land raiders. Not sad that DW get land raiders, but sad that if GW just printed up another army book with them at the same costs, that means they aren't being lowered anytime soon.
Martel732 wrote: I love how BA who join Deathwatch magically lose red thirst. Lame.
Everyone loses something. Iron Hands suddenly lose their bionic abilities.
That said they did have a missed opportunity with the Psyker chart. A power each from Dark Angels, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, and the Vanilla codex and then two new powers would be been kinda cool.
Deathwatch do have chapter tactics - or rather mission tactics. They reroll 1s to wound vs a chosen troop type. SIA is gravy on top.
95 points for 5 intercessors with bolt rifles and SIA feels pretty great. I wonder what would happen if you took a horde of them. You could afford 50 or 60, a couple of HQs, and have plenty left for some anti tank.
So much for a super-elite army. It wouldn’t shock me to see a deathwatch army that outnumbered an IG opponent.
Guess i know which army my pile of Primaris from the starter will be. Will be easy, paint a pad and arm silver the other a random colour with a symbol, the rest is black!
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Is anyone else a little peeved here after seeing the reveals for Deathwatch?
Every new codex that comes out leaves me more and more salty.
Mixed intersessor squads with aggressors. Please. Deepstriking dreads (come on, deepstriking leviathan dreads is ssssoooo good).
DA, BA and DW are all now firmly better than vanilla marines. Once the SW codex drops I doubt there will be any reason to run anything out of the dex (especially since they keep raising the cost of Gman who was really what made any of the competitive builds work). There maybe a spot for some RG scouts but vanilla marines are heading to the bottom of the competitive list (like I predicted way back when the eldar codex dropped...)
Good thing I don't have to repaint much of my existing army to play them as deathwatch (the only thing black templars have going for them
Not sure if you wanna focus on the Flakk missile Strategem either but it's something to consider if you just want more mortal wounds in the list.
Totally. The 4D3 Mortal Wounds from two Dev squads in a round is a pretty slick potential. I'm a little suprised they ruled it that way, actually. I'll have to finally paint up a Heavy Bolter guy.
Not to mention the Flakk guy will have +2 to hit a flyer. Signum+Stratagem.
Not sure if you wanna focus on the Flakk missile Strategem either but it's something to consider if you just want more mortal wounds in the list.
Totally. The 4D3 Mortal Wounds from two Dev squads in a round is a pretty slick potential. I'm a little suprised they ruled it that way, actually. I'll have to finally paint up a Heavy Bolter guy.
Not to mention the Flakk guy will have +2 to hit a flyer. Signum+Stratagem.
Flakk will already hit a Fly Keyword on a 2+. You'll need it for a ground target to get the regular hit.
Not sure if you wanna focus on the Flakk missile Strategem either but it's something to consider if you just want more mortal wounds in the list.
Totally. The 4D3 Mortal Wounds from two Dev squads in a round is a pretty slick potential. I'm a little suprised they ruled it that way, actually. I'll have to finally paint up a Heavy Bolter guy.
Not to mention the Flakk guy will have +2 to hit a flyer. Signum+Stratagem.
Flakk will already hit a Fly Keyword on a 2+. You'll need it for a ground target to get the regular hit.
Primark G wrote: Why do you say SM can’t cut the mustard? I’d like to know your reasons.
Take a look at Deathwatch, Blood Angels, and Dark Angels. They can build a better army, simple as that. Raven Guard is the last hope for the Vanilla Codex now as Rowboat and Razorbacks only go so far now.
Take one look at the London GT lists with a view to winning and non of the pure marine lists are likely to make top table.
Also I actually play with my vanilla codex marine lists weekly and I can tell they are ok if I out list someone in a casual game, but against a well built and piloted list, not even 50% Forgeworld is enough to keep them viable.
I thin SM with allies is fine because they are jack of all trades. I always bring a Librarian for Smite and Null Zone. Might of Heroes, Veil of Time and Psychic Fortress are all good too.
Primark G wrote: I thin SM with allies is fine because they are jack of all trades. I always bring a Librarian for Smite and Null Zone. Might of Heroes, Veil of Time and Psychic Fortress are all good too.
Being jack of all trades has for a long time been marines' exact issue for ages - we're okay at everything but a master of zilch. We can be outmaneuvered, outpsykered, outshot, and/or outmeleed by the majority of other armies. The only phase we're really good at is morale... And even then, things like fearless cultists can outdo us there too.
That being said, we do have some good builds up our sleeve (mostly but not solely revolving around SftS). Although we might not be seeing much of the very top tables, marines are still more than capable of getting you most of the way there imo, and the codex probably isn't the thing holding most players back
Primark G wrote: I thin SM with allies is fine because they are jack of all trades. I always bring a Librarian for Smite and Null Zone. Might of Heroes, Veil of Time and Psychic Fortress are all good too.
Being jack of all trades has for a long time been marines' exact issue for ages - we're okay at everything but a master of zilch. We can be outmaneuvered, outpsykered, outshot, and/or outmeleed by the majority of other armies. The only phase we're really good at is morale... And even then, things like fearless cultists can outdo us there too. We have some good tricks up our sleeve (mostly revolving around SftS), but otherwise don't have much going for us
I think the fundamental issue in 40K is while army-wide flexibility is great, unit flexibility only counts for so much and you pay point premium for it. Most marines never want to be in CC, but you're paying for that S4, hit on 3+. Other armies mostly only pay for the stats they want. You buy your desired BS 3+ or your WS 3+ for cheaper than the marine. Second, the idea that Marines need to be flexible and CC those armies that can outshoot them (or shoot those that can out CC) tends to fall apart when their backup stats simply aren't good enough. S4 on a 3+ isn't that hot when you only roll 1 die per model. You paid that point premium, but aren't better off than the opponent with S3 4+ and 2x the models to strike with.
Many editions they design a lot of marine wargear around wanting to be around 12" range (rapid fire, flamers, melta, backed up by assault cannons or grav), but that's really close if you don't want to be in CC. I could be totally wrong here, but I always felt like marines were theoretically designed to be a very close in shooty-assault hybrid army, like you shoot at close range as you close, then charge in. Which makes sense then that marines could never outshoot AM or Tau pure gunlines, you're supposed to be good in CC too. Problem being, in practice, most of the army is bad in CC. This is where I always thought BA had some advantage. You're more likely to use your entire model's statline, which you already paid for.
I've been wondering, what if all basic marines had +1A? I dunno if it'd fix their effectiveness, since it's still the stat least used by most marine lists (or turn everyone into BA style?), but bolter marines getting 2 swings makes them slightly better and assault marines getting 3 with their chainswords sounds a lot more appealing. Vets and primaris could have 3 base, then remove the double chainsword option. Some chars and the handful of good assault units would probably need to stay unchanged, but you get the rough idea.
Marines are fine regardless of what all the detractors here have to say. They are best played as a fire base with characters to sort out melee into their line. They need allies to beat top tier lists.
Primark G wrote: Marines are fine regardless of what all the detractors here have to say. They are best played as a fire base with characters to sort out melee into their line. They need allies to beat top tier lists.
Totally agree. I don't think we've seen the end of Guilliman gunlines, and allies almost alway make imperium armies better. I definitely think RG are viable too though, I'm not sure why you don't
Primark G wrote: Marines are fine regardless of what all the detractors here have to say. They are best played as a fire base with characters to sort out melee into their line. They need allies to beat top tier lists.
Totally agree. I don't think we've seen the end of Guilliman gunlines, and allies almost alway make imperium armies better. I definitely think RG are viable too though, I'm not sure why you don't
Points added to Guilliman means fewer models carrying the guns can be included in the list. So the enemy is easier to destroy your firebase leaving Guilliman no one to buff. Especially considering how fragile marines are for their overcosted points.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Simply put, I won't mind Guilliman points being raised to 450pts which is around same level of Magnus, if the "Battle Brother" marines (Tac, Assault and Dev) drops down to 10ppm - 11ppm and Centurion devastators drop down 50ppm level. But as for now just keeping rise the points of Guilliman and not improving the units already common known to be way too overcosted is simply plain nerf.
Primark G wrote: Marines are fine regardless of what all the detractors here have to say. They are best played as a fire base with characters to sort out melee into their line. They need allies to beat top tier lists.
Totally agree. I don't think we've seen the end of Guilliman gunlines, and allies almost alway make imperium armies better. I definitely think RG are viable too though, I'm not sure why you don't
Clearly GW does not share my opinion given they've made allies more and more permissible (or, at least it sells way more models to allow allies), but I always thought each army should be able to stand on its own with strengths and weaknesses, and hypothetically compete at the top. Certain factions being able to ally in as desired to shore up weaknesses seems like it kills the point of even having separate armies. Once I've allied in 500pts of BA captains or Shield Captains on bikes, maybe 500pts of the other for good measure, 300pts of AM bodies for CP, oh, and maybe an assassin or two, I wouldn't really feel like my list is "vanilla marine" even if 600-900pts are Raven Guard.
If you say you need 50% of your army to not be your chosen faction to compete, then I'd say no, that army book is not top tier competitive. It's just a source of some units that can be pulled to form a competitive soup list.
All this doesn't really matter to me, since I don't play big tourneys. I can run pure marine and avoid buying a bunch of flavor of the month allies. But, on principle I'd still like to be able to say that my faction is strong enough it could win top level events with 75%-100% actual vanilla marine codex units.
Primark G wrote: Marines are fine regardless of what all the detractors here have to say. They are best played as a fire base with characters to sort out melee into their line. They need allies to beat top tier lists.
Totally agree. I don't think we've seen the end of Guilliman gunlines, and allies almost alway make imperium armies better. I definitely think RG are viable too though, I'm not sure why you don't
That would be a fine plan if it weren't for the following issues
1 Standing in a huddle means your not achieving objectives, and will loose out on VP count, meaning you need to table your opponents.
2 It assumes that marine shooting can go up against shooting heavy lists and out shoot them, Eldar, Tau and AM can all out shoot marines.
3 Tabling an opponent with marine gunlines isn't a reliable strategy.
4 Ravenguard is the best way to play marines now as it does a great job of improving the survivability of marines.
5 if your taking less than half your points in marines your not playing a marine list your playing an imperial list. (Imperial lists are competitive but they gain little from marines, scouts being the one unique unit.
I’ve never been much of a fan of RG. I think Azrael does more for a shooting army for less than half the price, while also using up an HQ slot rather than being a LoW.
I think it’s also fine not to have either. My approach is to spend the minimum possible on HQs, leaving as much as possible for guns. My primaris captain with the fist of vengeance only costs 106 points and adding a lieutenant makes it 180 out of my 2k spent on HQs. Deploying them in a repulsor with a few aggressors or intercessors gives me a really low drop count but a strong counter-punch.
I do find that my army works in the tournament meta. I typically win more games than I lose. On Thursday I beat a really nasty alaitoc/Ynnari list and I manage fine against hordes - because repulsors are phenomenal against them.
Marines are not top tier. They are extremely difficult to play in the current meta. The most painful thing is the lack of stratagems, especially compared with BA, DA and now DW. It’s going to be seriously hard to justify keeping my army as crimson fists when the DW are so obviously better. At least it’s fairly easy to paint black and silver.
Mandragola wrote: I’ve never been much of a fan of RG. I think Azrael does more for a shooting army for less than half the price, while also using up an HQ slot rather than being a LoW.
I think it’s also fine not to have either. My approach is to spend the minimum possible on HQs, leaving as much as possible for guns. My primaris captain with the fist of vengeance only costs 106 points and adding a lieutenant makes it 180 out of my 2k spent on HQs. Deploying them in a repulsor with a few aggressors or intercessors gives me a really low drop count but a strong counter-punch.
I do find that my army works in the tournament meta. I typically win more games than I lose. On Thursday I beat a really nasty alaitoc/Ynnari list and I manage fine against hordes - because repulsors are phenomenal against them.
Marines are not top tier. They are extremely difficult to play in the current meta. The most painful thing is the lack of stratagems, especially compared with BA, DA and now DW. It’s going to be seriously hard to justify keeping my army as crimson fists when the DW are so obviously better. At least it’s fairly easy to paint black and silver.
I'd love to hear some of your tips for using Codex marines against Alaitoc. Eldar and Guard have been some of my toughest matches for my pure Raven Guard. Maybe you could elaborate on your list and some of the tactics you used?
Mandragola wrote: I’ve never been much of a fan of RG. I think Azrael does more for a shooting army for less than half the price, while also using up an HQ slot rather than being a LoW.
I think it’s also fine not to have either. My approach is to spend the minimum possible on HQs, leaving as much as possible for guns. My primaris captain with the fist of vengeance only costs 106 points and adding a lieutenant makes it 180 out of my 2k spent on HQs. Deploying them in a repulsor with a few aggressors or intercessors gives me a really low drop count but a strong counter-punch.
I do find that my army works in the tournament meta. I typically win more games than I lose. On Thursday I beat a really nasty alaitoc/Ynnari list and I manage fine against hordes - because repulsors are phenomenal against them.
Marines are not top tier. They are extremely difficult to play in the current meta. The most painful thing is the lack of stratagems, especially compared with BA, DA and now DW. It’s going to be seriously hard to justify keeping my army as crimson fists when the DW are so obviously better. At least it’s fairly easy to paint black and silver.
I'd love to hear some of your tips for using Codex marines against Alaitoc. Eldar and Guard have been some of my toughest matches for my pure Raven Guard. Maybe you could elaborate on your list and some of the tactics you used?
I had a couple of repulsors, one full of hellblasters and the other with 4 aggressors, my lieutenant and captain. A dual stormcannon leviathan, 2x5 intercessors, 5 scouts and 3 scout bikers. He had Yvraine, farseer and bonesinger riding in wave serpent with 9 reapers, a biel tan warlock, 9 saim hann shining spears, 3x5 alaitoc rangers, 20 deep striking guardians and 2 hemlocks. Scary stuff.
I went first, I advanced a bit and killed a couple of ranger squads but not much else, as the spears and wave serpent were behind LoS blocking terrain. His first turn involved unleashing a ton of psychic powers (all of which went off) and stratagems at me, chucking his shining spears across the board and granting them a 3++ against shooting and 5+++. Shooting took 10 wounds off a repulsor and assault by the spears killed it, though the hellblasters were able to disembark without getting locked as some intercessors were nearer. My leviathan weathered the hemlocks' fire and only took 2 wounds (which was pretty lucky though not hugely significant). My scouts died but my bikers survived an assault by Yvraine and the wave serpent. He used a soulburst on the spears to attack again, killing some intercessors and putting 4 wounds on my captain - though he killed a couple of them in return.
My turn 2 was pretty decisive. The shining spears are terrifying on the charge but far less dangerous if you charge them, which I did. He'd consolidated into my captain and I fell back so I could shoot at them, but actually I think that was a mistake. They were incredibly hard to shoot, so I'd have been better firing at other stuff. Still, 6 of the 9 were dead by the end of the turn, as were 6 reapers and 1.5 hemlocks. I'd done a sneaky 3 wounds to Yvraine when my scout bikes fell back.
That actually meant that most of my opponent's scary stuff was seriously dimininshed. I still had an undamaged repulsor, 8/10 hellblasters and the leviathan. He brought in his 20 guardians and he killed my aggressors and some intercessors that were on an objective, and he charged the wave serpent at my leviathan to stop it from firing. My opponent had to leave at that point, but said that the way the game looked it was a question of whether or not he'd be tabled - not who would win.
To be honest I think the dice helped me at a couple of times. And my opponent made a mistake by not using a stratagem on his reapers to hide again after firing - which would have kept them alive for longer. But if he'd done that I would have just killed the other hemlock instead - there was no shortage of things to fire at.
Next time I play against Alaitoc I'll be a bit more ready. In particular I'll spread out more at the start to make it harder for spears to consolidate into me. I'll also not waste so much shooting at shining spears and focus on killing them in cc with my captain and aggressors. I might also just hide my repulsors at the start until the reapers come out.
The army burns through CPs fast (the one downside of having a ton of great stratagems!) and relies on a few tough units - particularly the spears. But the spears aren't that tough on the defensive in combat, so once you can get power fists (and the fist of vengeance, if available) swinging at them things will go well. Beating them is about weathering the initial crazy nova and then hitting them back hard.
grouchoben wrote: I too hear the call of DW as a Primaris player! Great rules, great scheme and great looking flyer.
Honestly I think the primaris deathwatch rules have been written with no thought whatsoever to how they'll affect other marine armies, or indeed the deathwatch veterans themselves.
From what I can tell, intercessors are going to cost about the same as deathwatch veterans - perhaps give or take a point or two. That means they'll totally outclass the existing deathwatch veterans, making the army of anyone who currently plays deathwatch redundant overnight. At least tactical marines are cheaper than intercessors in a vanilla codex, so there's a potential case for taking them.
And meanwhile they do the same thing for everyone else's intercessors, because we'd all obviously pay 1 point to give our guys bolt rifles that actually did stuff. It radically alters the character of the army to have troops you might use to kill things rather than just to screen, so this supposedly highly elite force is likely to actually get taken to provide some really solid troops for soup armies.
It's annoying, and incredibly lazy as rules writing goes. They've pasted SIA onto intercessors, given primaris kill teams basically the same special rules as non-primaris ones, copied some stratagems from other books and called the job a good 'un.
Watching the warhammer tv video with the head designer of the codex struggling to remember his own rules was just embarrassing. I'd really hate to have to repaint my army because of the rubbish job he's done.
That isn't to say that the marine codex doesn't need work. It isn't a strong book at all. But the contrast between watching the guys at FFG talking to team covenant about the changes to x-wing 2.0 and the guys at GW talking to themselves could hardly be more stark.
Deathwatch certainly looks a better writen codex than vanilla marines but I'm fairly sure the more detailed reviews I have seen talking about points costed a DW intercessor at 23/25 points each as they have to pay a point for their rifle and point for their pistol (question was open as to if the pistol is optional plus special issue ammo has a points cost aswell. Supposedly to help out the guys without apecial issue ammo paying the special issue tax for just being death watch.
'the contrast between watching the guys at FFG talking to team covenant about the changes to x-wing 2.0 and the guys at GW talking to themselves could hardly be more stark.'
Ouch. Very good point. I havent seen that interview, and I'm not sure I now want to. Agreed on the gearshift up to DW being bery problematic for both codex players and oldguard DW'ers.
From what I can tell, intercessors are going to cost about the same as deathwatch veterans - perhaps give or take a point or two. That means they'll totally outclass the existing deathwatch veterans, making the army of anyone who currently plays deathwatch redundant overnight. At least tactical marines are cheaper than intercessors in a vanilla codex, so there's a potential case for taking them.
DW vets will still have their unique weapon and transport options. With the weapons getting cheaper, some of the non-boltgun options might become more worthwhile.
From what I can tell, intercessors are going to cost about the same as deathwatch veterans - perhaps give or take a point or two. That means they'll totally outclass the existing deathwatch veterans, making the army of anyone who currently plays deathwatch redundant overnight. At least tactical marines are cheaper than intercessors in a vanilla codex, so there's a potential case for taking them.
DW vets will still have their unique weapon and transport options. With the weapons getting cheaper, some of the non-boltgun options might become more worthwhile.
Having listened to the FTN review it seems that DW vets come to 18 points (16 + 1 for boltgun and +1 for pistol). Intercessors are 20 (18 +1 for rifle and 1 for pistol) - or a point or two more for the fancier rifle variants that nobody takes.
It's true that veterans come with loads of weapon options, but I don't think any of them are competitive. I certainly can't remember ever seeing DW vets at a tournament so far in 8th. I just see this as an opportunity to spam even more points on T4 1W guys, which is almost never a good idea. You can take some frag cannons, but then you need a way to get the guys across the field and that's going to cost you even more. There's just no reason to do this when you can sub in some allies to handle tanks - or have hellblasters shoot stuff for you.
One interesting thing they said was that you take the majority toughness for the unit. My thinking is to therefore take a squad of 5 intercessors, 4 aggressors and an inceptor. You count as T5 but you take wounds on intercessors. You can advance without a penalty to hit and fall back and shoot - which is a massive help for aggressors. You probably want auto bolt rifles on your intercessors here I think, to take advantage of your movement, but normal bolt rifles would be fine.
Now this is a 298 point unit, which is a lot. I'm not sure it's a good deal. But you have 20 wounds, 8 attacks with power fists (and 13 normal S4 attacks) and a silly amount of dakka. I think it might be a unit worth considering.
The watch master might end up being your only non-primaris model. I'm not sure what second HQ to take as apparently there aren't lieutenants - and I doubt I'd have taken one anyway. It would be cool if you could have an inquisitor without breaking your detachment, but you can't so never mind! A librarian is the obvious choice I suppose, especially since it's actually worth casting veil of time on a unit of 10 Primaris guys.
I'm massively tempted to put some deathwatch primaris together. I've got the guys from dark imperium hanging around unused and 5 proper ones still on sprues - so that's my battalion. I wouldn't repaint my Crimson Fists but some of the spare guys who I don't need in my current army could find a home in the deathwatch.
Something said earlier has been nagging me about marines. It was that we are a generalist elite force which pays for stuff we don't use. I think that's actually pretty accurate and trying a find a way to leverage that is key to our success. I am not talking about soup or salad lists, but just trying to make the most general advanced force you can so no matter who you come up against you have a chance.
Example : against elder they will out maneuver us but we hit harder and better in cc so we need to find a way to leverage that.
Example 2 : against thousand sons they hit us harder at range but we can be much faster so we need to find a way to leverage that.
I think a single batallion is the way to do this. It gives us the command points to do the work, the troops to cover the board and mitigate enemy speed a bit, the hq to help enhance our units, the elites to really pack a punch, and the fast attack to push the advantage when it appears.
So with this in mind what army would be taken? Raven guard seem a good flat option, so do salamanders and iron hands.
I am thinking
Hq- captains and leutinants. Take them bare and use their auras to full effect.
Elites - dreadnaughts of all types, sternguard bare or maybe with storm bolters, these are both good options. Sternguard give range, and dreads give massive firepower / support.
Troops - scouts or small 5 man tactical with a single heavy weapon or a special weapon / combi weapon. Depends on the trait which is better, salamanders for example love 5 man w/ laz cannon teams.
Fast attack - some call this a tax bracket but we have some good options here. I am thinking of trying 3 attack bikes with multimeltas with salamanders trait, each one gets a reroll on its hit on the melta drastically increasing their effectiveness. Other options are land speeders or bikers.
Heavy support - this is an important area. I am going to try 3 dev squads, 2 of them with 2 missile launchers and a heavy bolter + cherub for mortal wound goodness, and a 3rd team with plasma cannons. However the argument for 3 predators with autocannon laz sides is solid.
Thoughts? Is there just no way to make a flat marine army that is designed to capitalize on an enemy's weakness or Is the best option to try and make an offensive army to get your opponent to play your game and not try to play theirs?
Primark G wrote: I can see frag cannons as useful to protect your long range fire base because they are really good.
With the point decrease I'd say they're competitive. Only 2 damage seems a little silly on the krak rounds but S9 AP-3 at 12" and S7 AP-2 at 24" are both great profiles on an assault weapon.
How effective are Hellblasters vs tanks? I am always skeptical about overcharging with Hellblasters when I do ever play them since they're such an expensive unit that every model straight up lost is savage, but everyone seems to consider them wonderful tank killers. Is this true?
Not really. Let's start with the fact that Alaitoc tanks exist. Also, only 5 shots out at 15"-30" isn't that good. And the max range of 30" also isn't that good.
One interesting thing they said was that you take the majority toughness for the unit. My thinking is to therefore take a squad of 5 intercessors, 4 aggressors and an inceptor. You count as T5 but you take wounds on intercessors. You can advance without a penalty to hit and fall back and shoot - which is a massive help for aggressors. You probably want auto bolt rifles on your intercessors here I think, to take advantage of your movement, but normal bolt rifles would be fine.
Now this is a 298 point unit, which is a lot. I'm not sure it's a good deal. But you have 20 wounds, 8 attacks with power fists (and 13 normal S4 attacks) and a silly amount of dakka. I think it might be a unit worth considering.
That was the unit block I was thinking about too. Since my paint scheme is already primarily black, I'm gonna break down and buy the DW codex and compare what my units look like with RG vs with DW shoulderpads.
Though the thing I'm still wondering about for DW, maybe I missed this in the preview, is, won't your primaris squad still suffer the same flaw nonRG vanilla ones have? You have 18" range and no way to start up the table. Except, unlike vanilla, you can't even put them in a Repulsor as you can't fit 10 guys with half gravis.
One interesting thing they said was that you take the majority toughness for the unit. My thinking is to therefore take a squad of 5 intercessors, 4 aggressors and an inceptor. You count as T5 but you take wounds on intercessors. You can advance without a penalty to hit and fall back and shoot - which is a massive help for aggressors. You probably want auto bolt rifles on your intercessors here I think, to take advantage of your movement, but normal bolt rifles would be fine.
Now this is a 298 point unit, which is a lot. I'm not sure it's a good deal. But you have 20 wounds, 8 attacks with power fists (and 13 normal S4 attacks) and a silly amount of dakka. I think it might be a unit worth considering.
That was the unit block I was thinking about too. Since my paint scheme is already primarily black, I'm gonna break down and buy the DW codex and compare what my units look like with RG vs with DW shoulderpads.
Though the thing I'm still wondering about for DW, maybe I missed this in the preview, is, won't your primaris squad still suffer the same flaw nonRG vanilla ones have? You have 18" range and no way to start up the table. Except, unlike vanilla, you can't even put them in a Repulsor as you can't fit 10 guys with half gravis.
DW gets the Repulsor. There is also a Stratagem that lets you put an infantry or dreadnought unit into reserves to deep strike. So that exact Aggressor/Inceptor/Intercessor squad can just appear 9" from someone's face.
Also regular Bolt Rifles for DW will have 36" range at AP-2 and 24" range at AP-3. Freaking scary.
Ahh, did not know they had a generic deepstrike strat.
I knew they had the Repulsor, but that's 10 models with gravis counting as 2, so it's hard to get any form of mixed unit in there. Plus, with SIA infantry, seems a waste of points to have a nonSIA unit that also does many low power shots. If you don't like the vanilla one, DW seems an even worse place for it.
To be fair, I'm a BIG repulsor hater, but as lascannon become less viable in the meta, they do become a bit more palatable. Lances still suck, but repulsor is $$ vs S6/7 fire. If it lives long enough to fire multiple times, it's a decent value.
bort wrote: Ahh, did not know they had a generic deepstrike strat.
I knew they had the Repulsor, but that's 10 models with gravis counting as 2, so it's hard to get any form of mixed unit in there. Plus, with SIA infantry, seems a waste of points to have a nonSIA unit that also does many low power shots. If you don't like the vanilla one, DW seems an even worse place for it.
SIA is paid for by weapon, not by model. DW models are priced the same as their SM equivalent (Veterans are 16 points for DW and SM, for example.) The thing that changes is that Boltguns and Bolt Pistols aren't free, and allegedly cost 1ppm each. So you're not wasting points if you decide to not take SIA weaponry.
Intercessors/Hellblasters/Reivers and generic Primaris Captains seem like good things to put into a Repulsor honestly. Though I'd still probably rock the classic Land Raider with regular goons with a Terminator or two for Fearless and 3++.
grouchoben wrote: I too hear the call of DW as a Primaris player! Great rules, great scheme and great looking flyer.
Honestly I think the primaris deathwatch rules have been written with no thought whatsoever to how they'll affect other marine armies, or indeed the deathwatch veterans themselves.
From what I can tell, intercessors are going to cost about the same as deathwatch veterans - perhaps give or take a point or two. That means they'll totally outclass the existing deathwatch veterans, making the army of anyone who currently plays deathwatch redundant overnight. At least tactical marines are cheaper than intercessors in a vanilla codex, so there's a potential case for taking them.
And meanwhile they do the same thing for everyone else's intercessors, because we'd all obviously pay 1 point to give our guys bolt rifles that actually did stuff. It radically alters the character of the army to have troops you might use to kill things rather than just to screen, so this supposedly highly elite force is likely to actually get taken to provide some really solid troops for soup armies.
It's annoying, and incredibly lazy as rules writing goes. They've pasted SIA onto intercessors, given primaris kill teams basically the same special rules as non-primaris ones, copied some stratagems from other books and called the job a good 'un.
Watching the warhammer tv video with the head designer of the codex struggling to remember his own rules was just embarrassing. I'd really hate to have to repaint my army because of the rubbish job he's done.
That isn't to say that the marine codex doesn't need work. It isn't a strong book at all. But the contrast between watching the guys at FFG talking to team covenant about the changes to x-wing 2.0 and the guys at GW talking to themselves could hardly be more stark.
Not even close.
Veterans still outclass Primaris in versatility given the massive number of weapons they can be kitted out with. They can take melee weapons giving you a potent melee threat. They can take amazing heavy weapons that are super versatile. They can take SIA equipped Storm Bolters which makes them cause more damage than Primaris Intercessors for the same point cost. They can ride in cheap, capable transports. They're better at a lot of things over Primaris - except being durable.
Primaris are the units you use to hold the board until the glasscannon Veterans can strike, and you have way more options for how they strike than you do with Primaris.
But I see now that this is yet another dakkadakka thread where if the army doesn't end on top tables every tournament, it's trash and should never be played.
Veterans still outclass Primaris in versatility given the massive number of weapons they can be kitted out with. They can take melee weapons giving you a potent melee threat. They can take amazing heavy weapons that are super versatile. They can take SIA equipped Storm Bolters which makes them cause more damage than Primaris Intercessors for the same point cost. They can ride in cheap, capable transports. They're better at a lot of things over Primaris - except being durable.
Primaris are the units you use to hold the board until the glasscannon Veterans can strike, and you have way more options for how they strike than you do with Primaris.
But I see now that this is yet another dakkadakka thread where if the army doesn't end on top tables every tournament, it's trash and should never be played.
I think stock, point for point, Primaris win out. But you're right in versatility. Primaris don't get anything in melee except power fists and CCWs from Reivers. They don't get jack for invuln and they can't get 2+ armor. It all will boil down to if special and heavy weapons are cost effective. I know Frag Cannons went down to 25ppm and shotguns went to 3ppm, but we'll have to see what else has changed. As of now people are already throwing out gripes before we even fully have the codex.
I think the veterans are totally outclassed by Primaris marines. The only two things veterans have going for them are transports and the frag cannon. However they will die like flies outside their transports which are not all that amazing of units bar the razorback which itself is meh when it is moving around and not getting full re-rolls and the corvus which is pricey.
Primaris have superior standard shooting by a mile and make up for the lack of the assault cannon with cheaper hellblasters.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: I think the veterans are totally outclassed by Primaris marines. The only two things veterans have going for them are transports and the frag cannon. However they will die like flies outside their transports which are not all that amazing of units bar the razorback which itself is meh when it is moving around and not getting full re-rolls and the corvus which is pricey.
Primaris have superior standard shooting by a mile and make up for the lack of the assault cannon with cheaper hellblasters.
I think it all depends on what you want to accomplish. There's just too many ways to kit out Veterans to toss them out completely. I also think people are also sleeping on the Stalker Pattern Boltgun change. Supposedly 4ppm: Heavy 2 36" S4 AP-1, exclusive to Veterans. Spit out some Hellfire shells with reroll 1s to wound and the xenos will fall in droves.
There's also combi-plasmas, to give you the power of Hellblasters and Intercessors in the same exact package. Get up close with Vengeance rounds and pop your +1 to wound stratagem on a squad of 10 and you're dealing on average 10 wounds to Terminators, without overcharging. This math is assuming no captains either.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: I think the veterans are totally outclassed by Primaris marines. The only two things veterans have going for them are transports and the frag cannon. However they will die like flies outside their transports which are not all that amazing of units bar the razorback which itself is meh when it is moving around and not getting full re-rolls and the corvus which is pricey.
Primaris have superior standard shooting by a mile and make up for the lack of the assault cannon with cheaper hellblasters.
I think it all depends. People are also sleeping on the Stalker Pattern Boltgun change. Supposedly 4ppm: Heavy 2 36" S4 AP-1, exclusive to Veterans. Spit out some Hellfire shells with reroll 1s to wound and the xenos will fall in droves.
So its a bolt rifle with +6 inch range and the heavy penalty while costing 3 more points. Yeah I am not seeing the reason for taking it.
Edit: I mean it does always get two shots which ill admit is good, but at 15-18 so does the bolt rifle while being on a twice as durable model not limited to not moving.
2nd Edit to talk to your edit (I laughed when I saw we both edited our posts)
Combi plasma drive the point value of that marine through the roof and then he gets to hit on 4s with both weapons and kill himself on 1s and 2s if over charging (Which you need to do to take out termies). All combi plasma do is make veterans even worse investments due to how easily they would die and take your your 33ish point model or w/e.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: I think the veterans are totally outclassed by Primaris marines. The only two things veterans have going for them are transports and the frag cannon. However they will die like flies outside their transports which are not all that amazing of units bar the razorback which itself is meh when it is moving around and not getting full re-rolls and the corvus which is pricey.
Primaris have superior standard shooting by a mile and make up for the lack of the assault cannon with cheaper hellblasters.
I think it all depends. People are also sleeping on the Stalker Pattern Boltgun change. Supposedly 4ppm: Heavy 2 36" S4 AP-1, exclusive to Veterans. Spit out some Hellfire shells with reroll 1s to wound and the xenos will fall in droves.
So its a bolt rifle with +6 inch range and the heavy penalty while costing 3 more points. Yeah I am not seeing the reason for taking it.
Edit: I mean it does always get two shots which ill admit is good, but at 15-18 so does the bolt rifle while being on a twice as durable model not limited to not moving.
Would you rather shoot twice at 18" or 42"?
Edit: Your edit came while I was posting lol. Yeah it's a great gun for people parked in the back, ironically being a better Sniper Rifle than actual Sniper Rifles, except it can't target characters (excluding Tyranids).
Tibs Ironblood wrote: I think the veterans are totally outclassed by Primaris marines. The only two things veterans have going for them are transports and the frag cannon. However they will die like flies outside their transports which are not all that amazing of units bar the razorback which itself is meh when it is moving around and not getting full re-rolls and the corvus which is pricey.
Primaris have superior standard shooting by a mile and make up for the lack of the assault cannon with cheaper hellblasters.
I think it all depends. People are also sleeping on the Stalker Pattern Boltgun change. Supposedly 4ppm: Heavy 2 36" S4 AP-1, exclusive to Veterans. Spit out some Hellfire shells with reroll 1s to wound and the xenos will fall in droves.
So its a bolt rifle with +6 inch range and the heavy penalty while costing 3 more points. Yeah I am not seeing the reason for taking it.
Edit: I mean it does always get two shots which ill admit is good, but at 15-18 so does the bolt rifle while being on a twice as durable model not limited to not moving.
Would you rather shoot twice at 18" or 42"?
Edit: Your edit came while I was posting lol. Yeah it's a great gun for people parked in the back, ironically being a better Sniper Rifle than actual Sniper Rifles, except it can't target characters (excluding Tyranids).
Yup I edited my post to reply to your edit on the plasmas as well. Hilarious xD
I'd rather have a cheaper, durable and more mobile unit. The sniper kill team does not do enough raw damage to be worth its points IMO, but I see where you are coming from. It being heavy 2 is a big deal that edges out the intercessors heavy 1 version.
Primark G wrote: I can see frag cannons as useful to protect your long range fire base because they are really good.
With the point decrease I'd say they're competitive. Only 2 damage seems a little silly on the krak rounds but S9 AP-3 at 12" and S7 AP-2 at 24" are both great profiles on an assault weapon.
How effective are Hellblasters vs tanks? I am always skeptical about overcharging with Hellblasters when I do ever play them since they're such an expensive unit that every model straight up lost is savage, but everyone seems to consider them wonderful tank killers. Is this true?
With average rolling HB obilterate tanks especially if they are naturally hitting on 3+.
Primark G wrote: I can see frag cannons as useful to protect your long range fire base because they are really good.
With the point decrease I'd say they're competitive. Only 2 damage seems a little silly on the krak rounds but S9 AP-3 at 12" and S7 AP-2 at 24" are both great profiles on an assault weapon.
How effective are Hellblasters vs tanks? I am always skeptical about overcharging with Hellblasters when I do ever play them since they're such an expensive unit that every model straight up lost is savage, but everyone seems to consider them wonderful tank killers. Is this true?
With average rolling HB obilterate tanks especially if they are naturally hitting on 3+.
While that is true - average rolls from ravagers wipe half of the squad before they are even in range to shoot and they don't have to risk slaying themselves to do it. All of this for less than the cost of 5 hellbasters.
Primark G wrote: I can see frag cannons as useful to protect your long range fire base because they are really good.
With the point decrease I'd say they're competitive. Only 2 damage seems a little silly on the krak rounds but S9 AP-3 at 12" and S7 AP-2 at 24" are both great profiles on an assault weapon.
How effective are Hellblasters vs tanks? I am always skeptical about overcharging with Hellblasters when I do ever play them since they're such an expensive unit that every model straight up lost is savage, but everyone seems to consider them wonderful tank killers. Is this true?
With average rolling HB obilterate tanks especially if they are naturally hitting on 3+.
While that is true - average rolls from ravagers wipe half of the squad before they are even in range to shoot and they don't have to risk slaying themselves to do it. All of this for less than the cost of 5 hellbasters.
And now with Primaris Kill Teams, those ravagers only wipe the Intercessor half. While the Hellblaster/Inceptor half gets to fall back and obliterate their target or the Ravagers.
Primark G wrote: I can see frag cannons as useful to protect your long range fire base because they are really good.
With the point decrease I'd say they're competitive. Only 2 damage seems a little silly on the krak rounds but S9 AP-3 at 12" and S7 AP-2 at 24" are both great profiles on an assault weapon.
How effective are Hellblasters vs tanks? I am always skeptical about overcharging with Hellblasters when I do ever play them since they're such an expensive unit that every model straight up lost is savage, but everyone seems to consider them wonderful tank killers. Is this true?
With average rolling HB obilterate tanks especially if they are naturally hitting on 3+.
Primark G wrote: I can see frag cannons as useful to protect your long range fire base because they are really good.
With the point decrease I'd say they're competitive. Only 2 damage seems a little silly on the krak rounds but S9 AP-3 at 12" and S7 AP-2 at 24" are both great profiles on an assault weapon.
How effective are Hellblasters vs tanks? I am always skeptical about overcharging with Hellblasters when I do ever play them since they're such an expensive unit that every model straight up lost is savage, but everyone seems to consider them wonderful tank killers. Is this true?
With average rolling HB obilterate tanks especially if they are naturally hitting on 3+.
While that is true - average rolls from ravagers wipe half of the squad before they are even in range to shoot and they don't have to risk slaying themselves to do it. All of this for less than the cost of 5 hellbasters.
And now with Primaris Kill Teams, those ravagers only wipe the Intercessor half. While the Hellblaster/Inceptor half gets to fall back and obliterate their target or the Ravagers.
Not really...it one shots every member of the squad it just wounds some of them on 4's instead of 3's. However the cost benefit ratio remains about the same. Ravagers rape all primaris units. This is however a really dumb gimic to use to attempt to make primaris viable - instead of just costing them appropriately GW is instead bringing back 7th edition super-friends and LOS type mechanics (which were easily some of the worst mechanics to ever exist in the game).
Xenomancers wrote: Not really...it one shots every member of the squad it just wounds some of them on 4's instead of 3's. However the cost benefit ratio remains about the same. Ravagers rape all primaris units. This is however a really dumb gimic to use to attempt to make primaris viable - instead of just costing them appropriately GW is instead bringing back 7th edition super-friends and LOS type mechanics (which were easily some of the worst mechanics to ever exist in the game).
Alright wow I confused Ravagers with Raveners.
Yeah Ravagers are nasty. I only played DE once and I hated it. Though I don't think it's fair to compare 1 unit to another in a vacuum and say "this unit will never work because this unit in this codex just destroys them!" Dark Eldar destroy everything, that's kind of their shtick right now.
I really doubt GW will recost the points for SM after seeing the DW codex. My point is if you don’t like maybe now is time to realize it’s not gonna change later this year with CA.
Primark G wrote: I really doubt GW will recost the points for SM after seeing the DW codex. My point is if you don’t like maybe now is time to realize it’s not gonna change later this year with CA.
They can still lower the price of certain units and certain weapons without buffing DW too much, even if they do wind up being good. Tacs/ASM/Devastators aren't in DW. Land Speeders aren't in DW. Predators aren't in DW. There's loads of things that can still be changed in CA that won't change a thing for DW, so I'm not ready to give up hope.
Primark G wrote: I really doubt GW will recost the points for SM after seeing the DW codex. My point is if you don’t like maybe now is time to realize it’s not gonna change later this year with CA.
They can still lower the price of certain units and certain weapons without buffing DW too much, even if they do wind up being good. Tacs/ASM/Devastators aren't in DW. Land Speeders aren't in DW. Predators aren't in DW. There's loads of things that can still be changed in CA that won't change a thing for DW, so I'm not ready to give up hope.
Not that I think GW would do this so soon after just releasing a new printed book, but let's say hypothetically DW are fine and vanilla is still underpowered and they did want to change primaris costs. They could reduce the cost of the vanilla units and then up the cost of SIA capable guns further. Ex: A 16pt Intercessor buying a 3pt gun instead of a 18pt buying a 1pt gun.
If your having trouble with deldar Pop in some some basic predators. with CA chaing the pred AC down to 40 points they cost 130 per tank and perform excellently vs light vehicles with invuln saves and elite units with invuln saves. I have found them to be effective in literally every game I've played with them, Killshot or not.
Hey fellas, any tips to taking on Mechdar, Death Guard, or Mech Dark Eldar? I'm thinking Twin Abacks, and Hellblasters as a core. I'd agree with the Predator Autocannon vs DE vehicles, but that -1 to hit hurts.
The -1 to hit is always going to hurt but I generally give my Preds reroll 1's with either a captain or dread strategem. I generally keep an LT nearby as well for reroll 1s to wound, and I needed to fill an hq slot anyways. Popping killshot, which is a safer bet now because of the Deepstrike rule (still a bet though). Will allow you to shred any vehicle that Deldar are going to have. For 20 points its worth considering adding two HB sponsons that will also benefit from kill shot.
If you are going full killshot dakka pred, a storm of fire warlord is worth considering because it makes a roll of a 5+ add an additional AP
I have used Storm of Fire and it’s a good Warlord Trait - not the best but can be a boost if you’re firing a lot of ranged shots. I had a recent 500 point versus Necrons which was basically troops versus troops and it really helped.
Vilehydra wrote: The -1 to hit is always going to hurt but I generally give my Preds reroll 1's with either a captain or dread strategem. I generally keep an LT nearby as well for reroll 1s to wound, and I needed to fill an hq slot anyways. Popping killshot, which is a safer bet now because of the Deepstrike rule (still a bet though). Will allow you to shred any vehicle that Deldar are going to have. For 20 points its worth considering adding two HB sponsons that will also benefit from kill shot.
If you are going full killshot dakka pred, a storm of fire warlord is worth considering because it makes a roll of a 5+ add an additional AP
How is it making 5+ to hit ap-2? I know what the warlord trait does but how are you getting +1 to wound?
Vilehydra wrote: The -1 to hit is always going to hurt but I generally give my Preds reroll 1's with either a captain or dread strategem. I generally keep an LT nearby as well for reroll 1s to wound, and I needed to fill an hq slot anyways. Popping killshot, which is a safer bet now because of the Deepstrike rule (still a bet though). Will allow you to shred any vehicle that Deldar are going to have. For 20 points its worth considering adding two HB sponsons that will also benefit from kill shot.
If you are going full killshot dakka pred, a storm of fire warlord is worth considering because it makes a roll of a 5+ add an additional AP
How is it making 5+ to hit ap-2? I know what the warlord trait does but how are you getting +1 to wound?
Was referring to the killshot strategem. It provides +1 to wound and +1 Damage.
Not that I think GW would do this so soon after just releasing a new printed book, but let's say hypothetically DW are fine and vanilla is still underpowered and they did want to change primaris costs. They could reduce the cost of the vanilla units and then up the cost of SIA capable guns further. Ex: A 16pt Intercessor buying a 3pt gun instead of a 18pt buying a 1pt gun.
Yeah, I hope they do something like that. It is totally absurd how much better the DW Primaris are. There should be some reason to use non-DW Primaris.
Not sure if this has been talked about, but has FW confirmed how to use the Badab characters? I was looking at Lias again because seems pretty awesome for what I am shooting for but... Raptors Chapter Tactics aren't a thing.
I think that in the current meta the most efficient gun would be something like S8, ap-2, 2 damage, X shots. You’d wound most things on a 2 or 3+, not waste ap on stuff that either had an invulnerable or no armour, and have a high enough rate of fire to be useful against hordes. It’s a gun you can happily fire at anything.
Battlecannons are close to my perfect gun, but marines don’t get them. Leviathan stormcannon arrays are great, though they could use more range. 1 damage weapons fall a bit short in my opinion. Plasma is great, though it does sometimes kill you and the ap is often wasted.
Autocannons are pretty close to the ideal. Killshot and storm of fire combine to make a really great gun. I hadn’t considered heavy bolter sponsons but actually they are a cool idea vs light vehicles and monsters. It does sound like a trio of predator destructors could be a useful pick in the current meta, at a non-crazy price. The problem comes if someone kills one, because their damage will fall away hard at that point.
Mandragola wrote: I think that in the current meta the most efficient gun would be something like S8, ap-2, 2 damage, X shots. You’d wound most things on a 2 or 3+, not waste ap on stuff that either had an invulnerable or no armour, and have a high enough rate of fire to be useful against hordes. It’s a gun you can happily fire at anything.
Battlecannons are close to my perfect gun, but marines don’t get them. Leviathan stormcannon arrays are great, though they could use more range. 1 damage weapons fall a bit short in my opinion. Plasma is great, though it does sometimes kill you and the ap is often wasted.
Autocannons are pretty close to the ideal. Killshot and storm of fire combine to make a really great gun. I hadn’t considered heavy bolter sponsons but actually they are a cool idea vs light vehicles and monsters. It does sound like a trio of predator destructors could be a useful pick in the current meta, at a non-crazy price. The problem comes if someone kills one, because their damage will fall away hard at that point.
This is a point I've been trying to make for some time.
The requirement of 3 is what ruins several of those Marine strats, especially with the rule of 3. But even without, the 6” piece is also a huge hassle. Costing 3 cps with no requirement would seem more useful, though would reward allying in AMcp batteries even more.
I’m definitely hoping I can think of how I can get the Leviathan to work better. But yeah, that 24” range is a pain when the rest of my list is either SftS or 48”. Suppose there is the drop pod, but 120pts is rough...Or, once again, DW strats to the rescue? :p. Also shame to loose turn 1 shooting when it’s that good, but better off the table than on and out of range.
Primark G wrote: I can see frag cannons as useful to protect your long range fire base because they are really good.
With the point decrease I'd say they're competitive. Only 2 damage seems a little silly on the krak rounds but S9 AP-3 at 12" and S7 AP-2 at 24" are both great profiles on an assault weapon.
How effective are Hellblasters vs tanks? I am always skeptical about overcharging with Hellblasters when I do ever play them since they're such an expensive unit that every model straight up lost is savage, but everyone seems to consider them wonderful tank killers. Is this true?
With average rolling HB obilterate tanks especially if they are naturally hitting on 3+.
While that is true - average rolls from ravagers wipe half of the squad before they are even in range to shoot and they don't have to risk slaying themselves to do it. All of this for less than the cost of 5 hellbasters.
And now with Primaris Kill Teams, those ravagers only wipe the Intercessor half. While the Hellblaster/Inceptor half gets to fall back and obliterate their target or the Ravagers.
Not really...it one shots every member of the squad it just wounds some of them on 4's instead of 3's. However the cost benefit ratio remains about the same. Ravagers rape all primaris units. This is however a really dumb gimic to use to attempt to make primaris viable - instead of just costing them appropriately GW is instead bringing back 7th edition super-friends and LOS type mechanics (which were easily some of the worst mechanics to ever exist in the game).
I don't think the math holds up regarding a single Ravager killing a 10 man Primaris unit like Intercessors, Reivers, and Hellblasters, especially one in cover. Are there some buffs being used in this scenario? Hell, even 3 of them will really only manage 10.6 damage if they all try and focus down one unit. That's only 5 dead models. Assuming Disintegrator cannons. I haven't encountered any Dark Eldar so I'm probably missing something...
I don't think the Drukhari need to kill the primaris that quickly, as the plasma incinerator is quite inefficient against them. And they dictate range of engagement. They have time.
bort wrote: The requirement of 3 is what ruins several of those Marine strats, especially with the rule of 3. But even without, the 6” piece is also a huge hassle. Costing 3 cps with no requirement would seem more useful, though would reward allying in AMcp batteries even more.
I’m definitely hoping I can think of how I can get the Leviathan to work better. But yeah, that 24” range is a pain when the rest of my list is either SftS or 48”. Suppose there is the drop pod, but 120pts is rough...Or, once again, DW strats to the rescue? :p. Also shame to loose turn 1 shooting when it’s that good, but better off the table than on and out of range.
Just making it only require 2 would actually allow you to be able to actually use it outside of turn 1 first player.
But quite frankly Imho dreadnaught or FW does everything a predator does better and with more survivability.
Primaris marines are deadweight with the amount of D2 D3 and Dd3 weapons.
At this point though a tournament level list for imperium isn't even trying if you don't have a IG brigade and the 3 shield captain bikers. Leaving you with little to actually use marines for bar the obvious scouts.
I don't think the Drukhari need to kill the primaris that quickly, as the plasma incinerator is quite inefficient against them. And they dictate range of engagement. They have time.
Well of course - the ravagers and the fortis kill team aren't the only two units on the board, though.
I think deathwatch primaris could make a decent battalion. That’s not the same as saying they’d make a great army. Clearly the codex lacks a lot of cool stuff.
Luckily, they don’t have to be a whole army on their own. It’s possible to source stuff from all the other books if you want, including the other marine ones.
So maybe they should add in some dark angel hellblasters or black knights with Sammael and a talonmaster. Maybe some custodes captains and some manticores. There are tons of good options available to fill in around what certainly looks like a decent troops choice.
bort wrote: The requirement of 3 is what ruins several of those Marine strats, especially with the rule of 3. But even without, the 6” piece is also a huge hassle. Costing 3 cps with no requirement would seem more useful, though would reward allying in AMcp batteries even more.
I’m definitely hoping I can think of how I can get the Leviathan to work better. But yeah, that 24” range is a pain when the rest of my list is either SftS or 48”. Suppose there is the drop pod, but 120pts is rough...Or, once again, DW strats to the rescue? :p. Also shame to loose turn 1 shooting when it’s that good, but better off the table than on and out of range.
The challenge is to have something worth shooting besides the Predators on the first turn. I ran Kill Shot in a tournament just last weekend, and except for 1 game where I just made a mistake, there was almost no way I could protect all 3 of my predators unless I went first. Also, if you run Kill Shot, make sure you have the Hunter Killers and the proper auras to support them.
There's still a list I want to run that includes 2 venerable dreadnoughts to at least draw some aggro and force my opponent to make a decision.
bort wrote: The requirement of 3 is what ruins several of those Marine strats, especially with the rule of 3. But even without, the 6” piece is also a huge hassle. Costing 3 cps with no requirement would seem more useful, though would reward allying in AMcp batteries even more.
I’m definitely hoping I can think of how I can get the Leviathan to work better. But yeah, that 24” range is a pain when the rest of my list is either SftS or 48”. Suppose there is the drop pod, but 120pts is rough...Or, once again, DW strats to the rescue? :p. Also shame to loose turn 1 shooting when it’s that good, but better off the table than on and out of range.
The challenge is to have something worth shooting besides the Predators on the first turn. I ran Kill Shot in a tournament just last weekend, and except for 1 game where I just made a mistake, there was almost no way I could protect all 3 of my predators unless I went first. Also, if you run Kill Shot, make sure you have the Hunter Killers and the proper auras to support them.
There's still a list I want to run that includes 2 venerable dreadnoughts to at least draw some aggro and force my opponent to make a decision.
The FLGS I play at uses a lot of those 3 story ruins, with ITC the bottom level of a ruin blocks LOS. Im generally able to hide my predators first turn behind the ruins and move them into a good position on my turn. This does make it a bit of a hassle with the -1 to hit and 6' bubble, but its better than losing a predator or degrading one. Doing this I was able to out duel Longstrike and two IonHeads using only the Pred ACs and HK missiles.
I wouldn't mind changing Killshot to "select a monster/vehicle, all predators that fire on this target gain +1 damage +1 wound." Your no longer shredding columns of light vehicles like Deldar, but the you no longer need a minimum of 390 points to have a chance of using the strategem and it still is useful versus scary targets.
bort wrote: The requirement of 3 is what ruins several of those Marine strats, especially with the rule of 3. But even without, the 6” piece is also a huge hassle. Costing 3 cps with no requirement would seem more useful, though would reward allying in AMcp batteries even more.
I’m definitely hoping I can think of how I can get the Leviathan to work better. But yeah, that 24” range is a pain when the rest of my list is either SftS or 48”. Suppose there is the drop pod, but 120pts is rough...Or, once again, DW strats to the rescue? :p. Also shame to loose turn 1 shooting when it’s that good, but better off the table than on and out of range.
The challenge is to have something worth shooting besides the Predators on the first turn. I ran Kill Shot in a tournament just last weekend, and except for 1 game where I just made a mistake, there was almost no way I could protect all 3 of my predators unless I went first. Also, if you run Kill Shot, make sure you have the Hunter Killers and the proper auras to support them.
There's still a list I want to run that includes 2 venerable dreadnoughts to at least draw some aggro and force my opponent to make a decision.
The FLGS I play at uses a lot of those 3 story ruins, with ITC the bottom level of a ruin blocks LOS. Im generally able to hide my predators first turn behind the ruins and move them into a good position on my turn. This does make it a bit of a hassle with the -1 to hit and 6' bubble, but its better than losing a predator or degrading one. Doing this I was able to out duel Longstrike and two IonHeads using only the Pred ACs and HK missiles.
I wouldn't mind changing Killshot to "select a monster/vehicle, all predators that fire on this target gain +1 damage +1 wound." Your no longer shredding columns of light vehicles like Deldar, but the you no longer need a minimum of 390 points to have a chance of using the strategem and it still is useful versus scary targets.
All of the formation-ish stratagems I feel like are cool but really not optimal. It's an interesting attempt to make unoptimized things have a purpose, but some of them just require so much investment they almost reach redundancy. Three librarians just to spend 1 CP for +1 power at a +2 attempt? Has anyone honestly even tried using this?
bort wrote: The requirement of 3 is what ruins several of those Marine strats, especially with the rule of 3. But even without, the 6” piece is also a huge hassle. Costing 3 cps with no requirement would seem more useful, though would reward allying in AMcp batteries even more.
I’m definitely hoping I can think of how I can get the Leviathan to work better. But yeah, that 24” range is a pain when the rest of my list is either SftS or 48”. Suppose there is the drop pod, but 120pts is rough...Or, once again, DW strats to the rescue? :p. Also shame to loose turn 1 shooting when it’s that good, but better off the table than on and out of range.
The challenge is to have something worth shooting besides the Predators on the first turn. I ran Kill Shot in a tournament just last weekend, and except for 1 game where I just made a mistake, there was almost no way I could protect all 3 of my predators unless I went first. Also, if you run Kill Shot, make sure you have the Hunter Killers and the proper auras to support them.
There's still a list I want to run that includes 2 venerable dreadnoughts to at least draw some aggro and force my opponent to make a decision.
The FLGS I play at uses a lot of those 3 story ruins, with ITC the bottom level of a ruin blocks LOS. Im generally able to hide my predators first turn behind the ruins and move them into a good position on my turn. This does make it a bit of a hassle with the -1 to hit and 6' bubble, but its better than losing a predator or degrading one. Doing this I was able to out duel Longstrike and two IonHeads using only the Pred ACs and HK missiles.
I wouldn't mind changing Killshot to "select a monster/vehicle, all predators that fire on this target gain +1 damage +1 wound." Your no longer shredding columns of light vehicles like Deldar, but the you no longer need a minimum of 390 points to have a chance of using the strategem and it still is useful versus scary targets.
All of the formation-ish stratagems I feel like are cool but really not optimal. It's an interesting attempt to make unoptimized things have a purpose, but some of them just require so much investment they almost reach redundancy. Three librarians just to spend 1 CP for +1 power at a +2 attempt? Has anyone honestly even tried using this?
The Librarius Discipline psychic powers are ......... maybe ok but not many of them looks great. But may not be great. So I think the use of this stratagem have doubt in if it is worth to bring 3 Librarians, whuch is overcosted in 8th edition.
Veil of time buffs units in combat, but marine units are quite bad in it compare to other factions (except maybe IG and Tau). Might of Hero is good on single beatstick, it is the only power I like because I like Dreadnought
Psychic Scourge and Fury of Ancient is mortal wounds but very situational. No better than smite although now with the limitation of smite these power may be raised in usefulness compare to before.
Psychic Fortress is ok to protect key unit. It is the only power that can increase the survivabilty. It is a good one if fighting Tzeentch, Nidz, and maybe Eldar. However with the nerf to Smite ots value decreased. Also not a aura is ....... lackluster.
The Null Zone is "the best" one, but between the warp charge and its 6" range aura, its use is heavily limited. Enemy can easily mitigate its effect. The only successful experience among my almong my so many games using marine was in one game when enemy have a Soul Grinders and 2 Daemon Princes charged into my gunline, I advanced Tiggy towards them, pop this power, and counter charge Guilliman and a Contemptor into them to chop them into pieces. But that is the only success among my almost several dozen games.
Yeah, Librarian discipline is a bit limited, I agree. Null Zone and Might of Heroes are both great though. Might of heroes is so flexible! I love throwing it on a leviathan or repulsor for a T9 model, or to buff a melee monster.
Null zone is great for one major reason: it encourages these crazy cinematic moments when the librarian breaks ranks and charges the enemy, to get it in 6", for some classic death-or-glory shenanigans.
I've never been to a big tournament like an ITC, but at a local RTT death guard have been running rampant. Most of our events are run at the 1.5k level, does the community think aggressors are too expensive at this point level?
Also are they only good as Raven Guard due to their stratagem or would you consider running them as another chapter. (I'm one of those guys that has a custom paint job so I can choose my chapter before the event)
Sonminiser wrote: I've never been to a big tournament like an ITC, but at a local RTT death guard have been running rampant. Most of our events are run at the 1.5k level, does the community think aggressors are too expensive at this point level?
Also are they only good as Raven Guard due to their stratagem or would you consider running them as another chapter. (I'm one of those guys that has a custom paint job so I can choose my chapter before the event)
I think you'd have to have a good reason to run them as anything else, but that goes for all units, really, as RG have the most obviously useful chapter tactic. Even if you don't get first turn for the strat, you can hide them in cover somewhere and the -1 to hit will help them survive long enough to do things.
Mandragola wrote: I think that in the current meta the most efficient gun would be something like S8, ap-2, 2 damage, X shots. You’d wound most things on a 2 or 3+, not waste ap on stuff that either had an invulnerable or no armour, and have a high enough rate of fire to be useful against hordes. It’s a gun you can happily fire at anything.
Battlecannons are close to my perfect gun, but marines don’t get them. Leviathan stormcannon arrays are great, though they could use more range. 1 damage weapons fall a bit short in my opinion. Plasma is great, though it does sometimes kill you and the ap is often wasted.
Autocannons are pretty close to the ideal. Killshot and storm of fire combine to make a really great gun. I hadn’t considered heavy bolter sponsons but actually they are a cool idea vs light vehicles and monsters. It does sound like a trio of predator destructors could be a useful pick in the current meta, at a non-crazy price. The problem comes if someone kills one, because their damage will fall away hard at that point.
This is a point I've been trying to make for some time.
Yes, I remember this.
Is the meta really changing where you play ? I barely see any difference month after month in my gaming environnement. I mean, usually, people tend to stick to their army lists for their purchases, and they have like a 1 year delay between the writting of the list and the final purchase.
Gradually working my way through this thread, only about halfway through, but thought I might as well ask now while I'm catching up.
Helping a friend who is getting back to the game set up a Salamanders list and need some advice on some points. Have a rough framework, not a point-by-point accounting of units, but could use some thoughts on what to tweak.
Vulkan He'Stan, traveling (on foot) with:
Herath Shen
5-6 Aggressors with Flamestorm Gauntlets (by the way, does Vulkan's "firing flame weapons" mean only in the shooting phase, or does it work for 'firing' the melee stats of a Flamestorm Gauntlet as well?)
Should this unit have something like an Ancient as well? A Librarian, perhaps?
3 squads of Tactical Marines, with Assault Cannon Razorbacks
5-man squads seems to be the way to go from what I've seen, rather than Combat Squadding them to leave the Heavy Weapons back on a hill or something?
Thinking Combi-Melta on the sarge, and either a Multi-Melta or Meltagun in the squad; is the Salamanders tactic enough to account for the moving and firing penalty here?
Do these units benefit enough from a Lieutenant or something similar (Librarian for extra 'shooting'?), or at 5-man is it just not worth investing more?
2-3 Ironclad Dreadnoughts (or 2 and Bray'arth Ashmantle) in Lucius Pattern Drop Pods
Dropping down in the back lines second turn to wreak havoc while the rest of the army advances
If they're trying to be in combat most of the time, keep the pair of CC weapons, or is the Wrecker reroll not worth it?
Was thinking dual Flamers, but it's not like they can use them when they come out of the pods
Assault Launchers since they're going to barreling into things
I haven't looked enough at the number of wounds other things have; Seismic Hammer's extra damage worth the hit penalty, or should you always switch it out for the chainfist? Worth keeping with the Salamanders tactic?
Do Hunter-Killer Missiles tend to be worth the points?
Heavy support firepower; either:
1-2 squads of Lascannon Devastators with a banner-toting Ancient (Chapter? Company? They seem very similar, am I missing something?)
-or-
1-2 Lascannon Predators
Unsure which of these is preferable. The Devastators are a bit cheaper and benefit from Chapter Tactics. The Predators would draw some anti-tank fire from the Razorbacks and, as the turns progress, Dreadnoughts, and are more durable. Again, Hunter-Killers or no? And generally no extra ablative bodies for Devs, right?
Does it need something else? A couple of light aircraft? An anti-air tank? More anti-personnel in the form of a trio of extra-flamey Land Speeders? More troops for holding objectives?
I realize the list isn't very specific, like I said it's just a skeleton of one, and I'm sure some of it depends on the local meta, which I'm not sure what that is yet, but some general advice would be great.
Nightbringer's Chosen wrote: Gradually working my way through this thread, only about halfway through, but thought I might as well ask now while I'm catching up.
Helping a friend who is getting back to the game set up a Salamanders list and need some advice on some points. Have a rough framework, not a point-by-point accounting of units, but could use some thoughts on what to tweak.
I exclusively play Salamanders,
Vulkan really isn't worth it anymore unfortunately, he is slow and his reroll all melta/flamer is a 6" bubble. There is just no effective way to deliver him and his shortrange payload to a target. Also, you may reroll flame/melta hits and wounds any time you fire them.
Herath Shen is not a bad HQ pick, as he's 2 points cheaper than a captain and acts as an improved and upgunned apothecary, but his effectiveness only really comes into play if you have tanky multi-wound models. Also his plasma pistol won't kill himself if it overcharges, only does a MW.
Flamestorm Aggressors, I've never played them but I haven't heard anything really good about them. The biggest problem is the short range and they can't fire from deepstrike, meaning that if you keep them in reserve they won't be able to shoot until turn 3, and that is if they survive. I have heard that the dakkaggressors are decent. Normal aggressors don't benefit much from salamander CTs anyways.
Tac squads keep them cheap. I generally just drop a 5 man with a lascannon in cover. Every time I fire the unit the lascannon is already fired first to leverage the re-roll to hit and wound. The other bodies act as decent chaff (2+ save in cover) and provide limited anti-chaff. Meltaguns just aren't worth it. Razorbacks just aren't tough enough to guarantee enough get into range.
Ironclads are not bad. I generally run them as Ravenguard for the -1 to hit which makes them pretty tough to take out. Because I run RG, I generally keep both CC arms for wrecker (Chainfist is the best, 4 damage will shred things. Had one Ironclad rip down a knight that had exactly 16 wounds left in CC, I did use one re-roll however). If your running Salamanders, having a hurricane might be useful to help with chaff or you could go both CCW and your still able to mitigate a miss in the fight phase.
Bray'arth is really fun, but honestly not that great. If your bringing him in a dreadnought drop pod he'll run you 480 points. He is super tough, and if your fighting an immobile gunline he will absolutely tear it apart, but there are a lot of gunlines that are quite mobile like tau or deldar. If you are going to run him, add in a jetpack librarian with veil of time and might of heroes. If you get both off, he'll have 5 attacks at Str 18 and be toughness 10 (which is critical against lascannons) and be re-rolling advances and charges. You may have more success if you do back him up with two ironclads because that's a lot of high toughness models right in the enemy players face. Remember that Bray'arth is also a character that has fewer than 10 wounds. If your using a drop pod to bring him in it can also act as a bunker with some smart positioning.
If your dreadnoughts hit the deck right in front of them, pop smoke. That -1 to hit will seriously increase the survivability against shooting heavy armies.
For heavy support I generally run 3 Dakka preds with a LT and captain for re-roll support. I'm a big proponent of the predator AC over the LasTurret because of the proliferation of multi-wound models with invuln saves. I use HB sponsons, but have been unimpressed with them so far and may either drop them or switch back to lascannons.
There is something to be said for running a couple dev squads with a single HB and ML and a cherub. You pop the hellfire strategem AND the cherub, as per the FAQ the hellfire strategem affects both shots. If a target has fly, you may then pop the flakk missile strategem. This will get you a 2d3 MWs hitting on 2+ (because of signum) and if a target has fly it can deal an additional d3 MWs on a 2+.
On a sidenote, gunboat dreadnoughts are great with the salamander CT.
This is only my experience with 8th Ed Salamanders. Unfortunately marine meltas and flamers are just not that great because we lack any system to effectively deliver them which makes me a sad Salamander. I encourage your friend to experiment though, he may find things that I've missed.
Nightbringer's Chosen wrote: Gradually working my way through this thread, only about halfway through, but thought I might as well ask now while I'm catching up.
Helping a friend who is getting back to the game set up a Salamanders list and need some advice on some points. Have a rough framework, not a point-by-point accounting of units, but could use some thoughts on what to tweak.
Jumping off the post above me as well I agree with him for the most part. Vulkan is really expensive just to walk around with aggressors, though if you can get them into a good place and pop the stratagem you will cook anything alive at full strength. I usually run Vulkan and Shen alongside hellblasters a flag and some aggressors while my dreads and transports head up the board and tacs do their thing inside or out.
Special note of the Hellblaster Relic Flag Combo. I NEVER regret bringing it
Im in favor of 3x 10 man tacticals and combat squading . The combat squad stratagem is nice if you can get first turn and need one less drop to get the +1. Lascannon/Missle Launcher and a Plasmagun and go from there. Ashmantles really cool for stupid games but Id leave em at home and take a leviathan or contemptor heck both! I tend to go dread heavy just cause I like em so much but they always do well, just expect one to fall on the way up.
Its sad that if you play fluffy you've got some work cut out for ya. I always have fun despite that!
I just played a game with Brayarth in a drop pod today against a shadowsword and 2 baneblades. He took two shadowsword shots to the face at BS 5+ and took two wounds and killed the shadow sword (dealing about 20 wounds) and put the other baneblade from 25 wounds to 4. He was supported by a JP librarian with MoH and VoT. I had some good luck, but damn it was amazing to see him soak that fire.
While melta is thematic for Salies, plasma is in a very good spot right now. With their tactics allowing re-rolls, you can overcharge with confidence, without having to hug your captain for a buff aura.
In that vein, Saly ironclads probably don’t need to bother with the paired CC weapons for the re-roll. I think you will get a lot more milage out of the hurricane. IMHO there is 0 reason to take the hammer. -1 to hit is not worth going from 4 to 5 damage.
In general everyone benefits from having buff bubbles around, both captains and Lts. That said MSU salamanders need them the least. You have one or two notable guns in the squad, and they can use the chapter tactics for the same effect. But the HQs will boost the rest of the squad, and can hand out the buffs to things without chapter tactics (like razors and other tanks)
Agressors are very short range, but can crank out a ton of fire within that. I’d worry about them being vulnerable to outmaneuvering and long range fire. They do own the turf they are on until removed though. Cost a chunk for that privilege though.
Both LCdevs and Preds are viable, with pros/cons. One thing to consider is sticking a ML in with the LCs for a dev squad to take advantage of the stratagem. Same could be said about a HB.
As for other stuff:
I’ve been unimpressed with my speeders lately, but will admit to not fielding them as often as I used to. Plus the -1 to hit for moving firing has not done kind things to most of their loads. Granted the HF doesn’t care, so might be the best option.
What you have listed is a pretty good mix of firepower. What to add to that depends a lot on who you expect to face and individual playstyle preferences. The one thing I might suggest is a bare bones scout squad or two for screening and board presence.
Pondering taking Chapter Master upgrade and Storm of Fire Warlord trait take 2:
PreFAQ I asked about these in context of a pure marine list with 7 CPs to start. Chapter master seemed too expensive and my list was mostly buffing things with high base AP, so Storm of Fire was overkill.
Now, I've got an AM battalion, starting from a base of 14 CP, and have a whole bunch of Aggressors who can benefit from Storm of Fire.
Warlord:
Storm of Fire is a +8% bonus to pretty much all my shooting. Sounds quite good, right? But that means giving up Grand Strategist, which works out to about +6 CP over the course of a game (even more coupled with the Aquila). Given the AM battalion costed 10% of my points to begin with, trading away those CPs for +8% back seems a poor deal...Except for the fact that Space Marines don't exactly have superb strats. Eventually you just can't buy an effect as large as +8% at the equiv cost of 1CP/turn (no free 6 CP over 6 game turns).
Chapter Master:
Chapter master gives a +14% bonus to my BS3 shooting, of which, I do have a lot. +14% for 3 is an even better deal than +8% for 6. Chapter master seems a solid buy now.
Here we are, I've talked myself into the merits of both, and I look at my CP use:
-1 CP relic
-3 CPs chapter master
-4 CPs SftS
...D'oh, now I'm all the way back down to 6 CPs before the game even started, which won't cover multiple Hellfire+Flak, let alone rerolls.
...Although, 2D3 mortal wounds is close to the same as +8% more normal shooting wounds from my list, so maybe that's just paying 2/turn to do more flexibly what storm of fire grants me for 1/turn...
TL;DR; Version: I think chapter master is worth it with this many CPs, while Storm of Fire is a...maybe?...
Burns CPs but saves on points, big time. Also you might not be using RG. I've done the Chapter Master thing every game, and since I'm using it on an 88 point Captain, it's points well saved as far as I'm concerned. The difference is enough to get a Lieutenant.
Insectum7 wrote: Burns CPs but saves on points, big time. Also you might not be using RG. I've done the Chapter Master thing every game, and since I'm using it on an 88 point Captain, it's points well saved as far as I'm concerned. The difference is enough to get a Lieutenant.
Shrike is only 150 points. Even if you're not using Vanguard, it's better to just use the extra points for the free upgrade. There really isn't any excuse to use the Chapter Master Strategem unless you're doing Black Templar gunline.
Another thing to note with the FW special characters is that they technically cant be locked to the Parent Chapter warlord trait. So you can feel free to take Storm Of Fire for Lias for those Aggressors. They like Lias for that movement bonus. Assuming they don't die of course.
Hmm, good points. Named master + SoF is the least efficient in terms of CP midgame, but does have the upside of paying points for the bonus you can buy and then still getting the SoF bonus you can't really pay points for.
As much as I'd prefer Lias' gun, the fact he's nearly double in cost rules him out without making use of the special deployment.
Shrike is a viable route, that's basically paying 40pts and losing a thunder hammer wound in CC for 3 CPs if I replace a smashcaptain.
Shrike vrs a smash captain actually math hammers out to be relatively close depending on what your throwing him at as to which one is better.
The biggest decider is if you have another assualt unit to benifit from winged deliverance.
Ice_can wrote: Shrike vrs a smash captain actually math hammers out to be relatively close depending on what your throwing him at as to which one is better.
The biggest decider is if you have another assualt unit to benifit from winged deliverance.
I'm figuring with all those bolter shots that my biggest worry is high toughness units, which is unfortunately where the thunder hammer does math better. I closed the calc, but I think it was like 3/4 a wound vs T7 4++ and a bit over a wound vs T8 3+. And no, no other assault units anymore, which was why I dropped Shrike in a prior iteration.
Yeah shrike as a solo assualt units isn't giving the benifit to another unit that makes him worth it.
To be honest it really depends on your meta, the rest of your list and what you need your assualt element to be able to tackle.
bort wrote: Hmm, good points. Named master + SoF is the least efficient in terms of CP midgame, but does have the upside of paying points for the bonus you can buy and then still getting the SoF bonus you can't really pay points for.
As much as I'd prefer Lias' gun, the fact he's nearly double in cost rules him out without making use of the special deployment.
Shrike is a viable route, that's basically paying 40pts and losing a thunder hammer wound in CC for 3 CPs if I replace a smashcaptain.
Well did you really want to charge with an HQ you were using to buff those units in the first place?
But yeah, with Lias you'd have to use the ability at least once to make up for the cost of a Drop Pod. I'm sure you can think of at least one unit you'd like to put in a Drop Pod but not ever pay for a Drop Pod...
Ugh, yes, not only are they ugly, but the arms never line up. Those same scout models are from 3rd ed, if I recall. I bought a box to replace my mohawked 2nd ed metal guys long long ago.
Well the Lias ability doesn't work with aggressors sfts tactics, which is I think what he wants to do. So you really are just paying more for him. If you don't want a LT to come along as well then that seems fine, but I think shrike+lt is usually better for the sfts.
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote: T
Really hope we get a new Scout kit one day, cause the current ones are ugly as hell.
I put Scions heads on my scout bikes because I couldn't use them with those heads... Now they are a frequent choice to support the 2nd Company
Are you talking about the Helmetless ones or the helmets? I've been looking for Scout stand-ins myself but I hadn't seen anything that wowed me as of yet.
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jcd386 wrote: Well the Lias ability doesn't work with aggressors sfts tactics, which is I think what he wants to do. So you really are just paying more for him. If you don't want a LT to come along as well then that seems fine, but I think shrike+lt is usually better for the sfts.
Yeah Aggressors can't travel with Lias, but you might want something else to. Devastators or Sternguard or Command Squads or even that Lt that was mentioned. I dunno. Up to all y'all. Can't make ya love Lias.
Insectum7 wrote: Burns CPs but saves on points, big time. Also you might not be using RG. I've done the Chapter Master thing every game, and since I'm using it on an 88 point Captain, it's points well saved as far as I'm concerned. The difference is enough to get a Lieutenant.
Shrike is only 150 points. Even if you're not using Vanguard, it's better to just use the extra points for the free upgrade. There really isn't any excuse to use the Chapter Master Strategem unless you're doing Black Templar gunline.
Insectum7 wrote: Burns CPs but saves on points, big time. Also you might not be using RG. I've done the Chapter Master thing every game, and since I'm using it on an 88 point Captain, it's points well saved as far as I'm concerned. The difference is enough to get a Lieutenant.
Shrike is only 150 points. Even if you're not using Vanguard, it's better to just use the extra points for the free upgrade. There really isn't any excuse to use the Chapter Master Strategem unless you're doing Black Templar gunline.
Or like i mentioned, not playing RG tactics.
For what purpose though? Everyone else does everything better. Only other chapter to play in the Vanilla codex is Ultramarines for Roboute. That's it.
I've recently switched to using a chapter master, and it's definitely worth it.
Full rerolls doesn't seem like much of a difference when you think about just rerolling 2s. It makes a massive difference when you've got things like damaged vehicles getting to reroll everything, and especially for overwatch. It's even a help dealing with things like Culexus assassins.
In future I'll definitely take a chapter master. I might take him as Pedro, but I think I prefer having my primaris captain with the fist of vengeance, 64 spare points, and the option to take storm of fire.
Among the many advantages that deathwatch now have is the availability of a 130 point watch master. He's an excellent buy at that price. Charging a 10-man primaris unit near one of these guys is going to be seriously unpleasant - especially when they can just wander off and shoot again in their turn.
Insectum7 wrote: Burns CPs but saves on points, big time. Also you might not be using RG. I've done the Chapter Master thing every game, and since I'm using it on an 88 point Captain, it's points well saved as far as I'm concerned. The difference is enough to get a Lieutenant.
Shrike is only 150 points. Even if you're not using Vanguard, it's better to just use the extra points for the free upgrade. There really isn't any excuse to use the Chapter Master Strategem unless you're doing Black Templar gunline.
Or like i mentioned, not playing RG tactics.
For what purpose though? Everyone else does everything better. Only other chapter to play in the Vanilla codex is Ultramarines for Roboute. That's it.
Ultramarines plays the rapid-fire game better. Getting within 12" for the plasma double-tap and not worrying about being touched for combat stopping you from shooting next turn. Being within 12" negates the RG tactics, and being touched negated any fire output for non-UM. While Chapter master + Lt. is Guilliman-lite for less than half the points.
Plus, like others have mentioned, customizeable wargear setup for the characters involved. There's plenty of reasons to not take a named chapter master.
IMO the 3 CPs for Chapter Master is CPs well spent, esp. since a direct comparison would be Scions of Guilliman, 1 point, for 1 unit, for 1 turn. Chapter Master grants full rerolls to all units within range, every turn. For 3CPs, much better value if you're building/playing for it. The opportunity cost per CP is a good buy.
What units are actually getting into rapid fire plasma range and then somehow surviving a full turn off shooting and close combat so they can fall back? I've played a fair amount of Roboute lists and I'm not sure I've ever had that happen.
Well, in the past I've done a lot of drop podding with Tacs and Devs. The beta rules have stymied that a bit and I'm working through it, though basically every time I play against Tyranids I get massive value out of falling back out of combat. Chaos too, although I haven't seen them on the table locally in a while.
But basically, because I do power armor swarm there's always models getting into and out of combat because close range is where they tend to get the most value, imo. Rhinos, razors or pods coupled with mass advance, or gunlining against cc types. The UM tactics let me do that, while I'd have to be a lot more careful about unit proximities playing something else.
I'm definitely sure I want the chapter master bonus. Whether to pay CPs or points for it I am still undecided. Call it 50pts for 3CP is a good deal, so in principle I like putting Shrike back. But ugh, I just got my new list idea to that point where I feel like pulling anything either breaks something or frees up way too many points.
Heavy Support
Heavy Weapons Squad [3 PL, 33pts] - 3x Mortar
Total: [121 PL, 2000pts]
Some potential swap options to get Shrike in by pulling a hammer captain, a Scout heavy bolter, and...:
1. Remove the Astropath. - He's a cheap deny and smite equiv. I'm tired of playing with 0 and wanted to try being able to deny a few things.
2. Remove the Mortar team. - This unit gives something for the Commander to order with Cadian rerolls.
3. Downgrade a Venerable to a regular Dread or a Dev squad. - I don't like regulars since Vens get the 6+++ and BS2. I've got no major problem with Devs, but they do shoot worse and need a good perch.
4. Pull 1 Aggressor. - Easy remove, but that's giving up 9% of my Aggressor shooting to get +14% Aggressor shooting.
5. I could pull a whole Venerable and add Shrike. That gives me 2 hammer captains for counter charge while Shrike still sits with the rerolls. I like this CC support, but the Venerables are a good chunk of my anti tank.
Are you talking about the Helmetless ones or the helmets? I've been looking for Scout stand-ins myself but I hadn't seen anything that wowed me as of yet.
The regular Scion helmet heads. I use the plain helmets for scouts and the one with a skull for the sergeant. It looks waaay better, as I said, now I actually like the models
Among the many advantages that deathwatch now have is the availability of a 130 point watch master. He's an excellent buy at that price. Charging a 10-man primaris unit near one of these guys is going to be seriously unpleasant - especially when they can just wander off and shoot again in their turn.
That was my original thought when I heard about Deathwatch. Go RG+DW. Instead of SftS Aggressors and doing the 1cp RG detachment, do a DW patrol with a Watch Master and 2 kill teams to DS in. That'd be about the same firepower as the Aggressors, the ability to fall back from combat, and the +1 to wound rolls. Downside was it occurred to me that if all my dakka is in the DS, then I don't have horde killing on the table to clear space for the DW to land. A killteam screened out of rapid fire range would be a horrible waste.
As to my RG list tweaking, sigh, I'm thinking best route is to drop a Venerable...I hate doing it to a model I just assembled and losing those high str shots, but the Venerable gets me enough points to do something else as well as put in Shrike.
Edit: Maybe I drop 1 Captain, 1 Venerable and swap a gun on the other. Then add Shrike and 5 Hellblasters. That's basically trading 4 BS 2 lascannons for 5 plasma incinerators, which isn't a bad deal as long as I can rapid fire.
Insectum7 wrote: Burns CPs but saves on points, big time. Also you might not be using RG. I've done the Chapter Master thing every game, and since I'm using it on an 88 point Captain, it's points well saved as far as I'm concerned. The difference is enough to get a Lieutenant.
Shrike is only 150 points. Even if you're not using Vanguard, it's better to just use the extra points for the free upgrade. There really isn't any excuse to use the Chapter Master Strategem unless you're doing Black Templar gunline.
Or like i mentioned, not playing RG tactics.
For what purpose though? Everyone else does everything better. Only other chapter to play in the Vanilla codex is Ultramarines for Roboute. That's it.
Ultramarines plays the rapid-fire game better. Getting within 12" for the plasma double-tap and not worrying about being touched for combat stopping you from shooting next turn. Being within 12" negates the RG tactics, and being touched negated any fire output for non-UM. While Chapter master + Lt. is Guilliman-lite for less than half the points.
Plus, like others have mentioned, customizeable wargear setup for the characters involved. There's plenty of reasons to not take a named chapter master.
IMO the 3 CPs for Chapter Master is CPs well spent, esp. since a direct comparison would be Scions of Guilliman, 1 point, for 1 unit, for 1 turn. Chapter Master grants full rerolls to all units within range, every turn. For 3CPs, much better value if you're building/playing for it. The opportunity cost per CP is a good buy.
Scions is terrible though because it's super redundant with the HQs you're already running AND Wisdom Of The Ancients (which doesn't get used in the first place).
However, that's one of the primary weaknesses with the Vanilla Codex is the HQ section. Outside the Lt (who doesn't have a named counterpart at all), all the named versions are better for the price, so who honestly cares about customization? In fact, let's take a look at the whole Roboute thing you made mention of. Roboute is most definitely more durable than the two HQ's for the price, and on top of that offers a Captain aura for 12", so he's more likely to affect more units. You also have the morale thing but nobody cares about that.
Now let's look at Calgar. You can customize a Captain with things, sure. However, those 200 points go straight to:
1. Power Fists with no penalty to hit
2. Master Crafted Storm Bolter
3. 2 extra Command Points if he's the Warlord for your silly Scions Strategem
4. An extra attack
5. An extra wound
6. The effect from The Shield Eternal
If you want straight up nothing on the Captain, sure. Just do barebones Teeth Of Terra and go nuts. However, what Captain are you making that's even comparable? The moment you start buying ANYTHING though, you are gonna be compared to the named counterpart, which is something NONE of the other codices have to deal with for their generic HQ dudes.
The only downside I see there is being locked to the Ultramarines Warlord Trait, but that's one of the better ones so...
Among the many advantages that deathwatch now have is the availability of a 130 point watch master. He's an excellent buy at that price. Charging a 10-man primaris unit near one of these guys is going to be seriously unpleasant - especially when they can just wander off and shoot again in their turn.
That was my original thought when I heard about Deathwatch. Go RG+DW. Instead of SftS Aggressors and doing the 1cp RG detachment, do a DW patrol with a Watch Master and 2 kill teams to DS in. That'd be about the same firepower as the Aggressors, the ability to fall back from combat, and the +1 to wound rolls. Downside was it occurred to me that if all my dakka is in the DS, then I don't have horde killing on the table to clear space for the DW to land. A killteam screened out of rapid fire range would be a horrible waste.
As to my RG list tweaking, sigh, I'm thinking best route is to drop a Venerable...I hate doing it to a model I just assembled and losing those high str shots, but the Venerable gets me enough points to do something else as well as put in Shrike.
Edit: Maybe I drop 1 Captain, 1 Venerable and swap a gun on the other. Then add Shrike and 5 Hellblasters. That's basically trading 4 BS 2 lascannons for 5 plasma incinerators, which isn't a bad deal as long as I can rapid fire.
The Ven Dread isn't a good pick for AT anyway. You're not losing much.
Are you talking about the Helmetless ones or the helmets? I've been looking for Scout stand-ins myself but I hadn't seen anything that wowed me as of yet.
The regular Scion helmet heads. I use the plain helmets for scouts and the one with a skull for the sergeant. It looks waaay better, as I said, now I actually like the models
Mind showing those off? If they look good enough I might just buy the Scout kit and then grab some Scions and do the same thing myself.
Yeah, as long as I can rapid fire those Hellblasters at least once, they're gonna be just as good AT and really only at the cost of the 1CP to SftS them.
Why don't you think the Venerable is good AT? 156-190pts gets you some combo of 2 twin autocannons, 2 twin lascannons, or 1 each. That's about the same price as a Dev squad, but BS2 and one of the few ways to even get an autocannon. It's easier to be shot, but then has 6+++ to compensate. The Contemptor Mortis is a bit more efficient overall with even more survivability for +20pts, but adds nothing for shooting power. Dreads can also grant a reroll 1s to themselves if necessary. The devs are probably not going to be in range of Shrike's reroll.
The scion heads sound tempting for scouts, way back before open allies I was considering just using full scion models as my scouts. Now I wouldn't due to confusion. But still, the thing with that kit is it isn't just the terrible heads, those bodies don't pose right and have a ridiculous amount of moulding lines everywhere. Mine are easily my worst assembled marine models and I'm definitely buying replacements if GW ever releases a new kit.
My thinking is to maybe use dakka primaris squads alongside something else entirely for AT.
I actually think there might be some good synergy with the new IKs. A couple of knights and an Armiger look like they’ll come to around 1k. Then spend 1k on a DW battalion.
Not sure it’ll work to be honest. IG remain the obvious choice I think.
Insectum7 wrote: Burns CPs but saves on points, big time. Also you might not be using RG. I've done the Chapter Master thing every game, and since I'm using it on an 88 point Captain, it's points well saved as far as I'm concerned. The difference is enough to get a Lieutenant.
Shrike is only 150 points. Even if you're not using Vanguard, it's better to just use the extra points for the free upgrade. There really isn't any excuse to use the Chapter Master Strategem unless you're doing Black Templar gunline.
Or like i mentioned, not playing RG tactics.
For what purpose though? Everyone else does everything better. Only other chapter to play in the Vanilla codex is Ultramarines for Roboute. That's it.
Ultramarines plays the rapid-fire game better. Getting within 12" for the plasma double-tap and not worrying about being touched for combat stopping you from shooting next turn. Being within 12" negates the RG tactics, and being touched negated any fire output for non-UM. While Chapter master + Lt. is Guilliman-lite for less than half the points.
Plus, like others have mentioned, customizeable wargear setup for the characters involved. There's plenty of reasons to not take a named chapter master.
IMO the 3 CPs for Chapter Master is CPs well spent, esp. since a direct comparison would be Scions of Guilliman, 1 point, for 1 unit, for 1 turn. Chapter Master grants full rerolls to all units within range, every turn. For 3CPs, much better value if you're building/playing for it. The opportunity cost per CP is a good buy.
Scions is terrible though because it's super redundant with the HQs you're already running AND Wisdom Of The Ancients (which doesn't get used in the first place).
However, that's one of the primary weaknesses with the Vanilla Codex is the HQ section. Outside the Lt (who doesn't have a named counterpart at all), all the named versions are better for the price, so who honestly cares about customization? In fact, let's take a look at the whole Roboute thing you made mention of. Roboute is most definitely more durable than the two HQ's for the price, and on top of that offers a Captain aura for 12", so he's more likely to affect more units. You also have the morale thing but nobody cares about that.
Now let's look at Calgar. You can customize a Captain with things, sure. However, those 200 points go straight to:
1. Power Fists with no penalty to hit
2. Master Crafted Storm Bolter
3. 2 extra Command Points if he's the Warlord for your silly Scions Strategem
4. An extra attack
5. An extra wound
6. The effect from The Shield Eternal
If you want straight up nothing on the Captain, sure. Just do barebones Teeth Of Terra and go nuts. However, what Captain are you making that's even comparable? The moment you start buying ANYTHING though, you are gonna be compared to the named counterpart, which is something NONE of the other codices have to deal with for their generic HQ dudes.
The only downside I see there is being locked to the Ultramarines Warlord Trait, but that's one of the better ones so...
I actually like Calgar, but for something like 15-20 more points than Calgar you can get a Captain and Lt. Both with jump packs, Storm Bolters and Thunder Hammers and have:
1. More buffs
2. More wounds
3. More Attacks
4. Which do flat 3 damage
5. More maneuverability
6. Fill your battalion HQ requirement.
7. Freedom of Warlord Trait.
As for Guilliman, the buffs you're really looking for are still just 6", and he costs a Captain with some gear, a Lt. With some gear, plus an entire full and well equipped Devastator squad (imo muuuuch better value) AND you still need to buy more HQs for your Battalion or whatever because he's a Lord of War. If you're after CPs, for the price of Guilliman you could buy another battalion.
So no, i don't think the existence of named characters lock you in at all. If you're fine with what they offer, that's cool, but options are good, and something that synergizes more with your army/style is good.
I think shrike is only a no brain-er if you plan to have him be in the front with aggressors or something. If you just want a guy to sit back and make devs shoot better, I think a 3CP chapter master is okay. We have more CP now with the FAQ, so i don't see it as that pricey. I haven't ever had any of the other chapter masters other than Lias catch my eye.
The main thing Bobby G brings to the table is re-roll all wounds, which is incredible for lower strength guns and over-watch. He is also quite a beast in close combat. My issue with him lately is just being so expensive and not having RG tactics to grant me some durability, so my already smaller army dies much faster.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Mind showing those off? If they look good enough I might just buy the Scout kit and then grab some Scions and do the same thing myself.
Insectum7 wrote: Burns CPs but saves on points, big time. Also you might not be using RG. I've done the Chapter Master thing every game, and since I'm using it on an 88 point Captain, it's points well saved as far as I'm concerned. The difference is enough to get a Lieutenant.
Shrike is only 150 points. Even if you're not using Vanguard, it's better to just use the extra points for the free upgrade. There really isn't any excuse to use the Chapter Master Strategem unless you're doing Black Templar gunline.
Or like i mentioned, not playing RG tactics.
For what purpose though? Everyone else does everything better. Only other chapter to play in the Vanilla codex is Ultramarines for Roboute. That's it.
Ultramarines plays the rapid-fire game better. Getting within 12" for the plasma double-tap and not worrying about being touched for combat stopping you from shooting next turn. Being within 12" negates the RG tactics, and being touched negated any fire output for non-UM. While Chapter master + Lt. is Guilliman-lite for less than half the points.
Plus, like others have mentioned, customizeable wargear setup for the characters involved. There's plenty of reasons to not take a named chapter master.
IMO the 3 CPs for Chapter Master is CPs well spent, esp. since a direct comparison would be Scions of Guilliman, 1 point, for 1 unit, for 1 turn. Chapter Master grants full rerolls to all units within range, every turn. For 3CPs, much better value if you're building/playing for it. The opportunity cost per CP is a good buy.
Scions is terrible though because it's super redundant with the HQs you're already running AND Wisdom Of The Ancients (which doesn't get used in the first place).
However, that's one of the primary weaknesses with the Vanilla Codex is the HQ section. Outside the Lt (who doesn't have a named counterpart at all), all the named versions are better for the price, so who honestly cares about customization? In fact, let's take a look at the whole Roboute thing you made mention of. Roboute is most definitely more durable than the two HQ's for the price, and on top of that offers a Captain aura for 12", so he's more likely to affect more units. You also have the morale thing but nobody cares about that.
Now let's look at Calgar. You can customize a Captain with things, sure. However, those 200 points go straight to:
1. Power Fists with no penalty to hit
2. Master Crafted Storm Bolter
3. 2 extra Command Points if he's the Warlord for your silly Scions Strategem
4. An extra attack
5. An extra wound
6. The effect from The Shield Eternal
If you want straight up nothing on the Captain, sure. Just do barebones Teeth Of Terra and go nuts. However, what Captain are you making that's even comparable? The moment you start buying ANYTHING though, you are gonna be compared to the named counterpart, which is something NONE of the other codices have to deal with for their generic HQ dudes.
The only downside I see there is being locked to the Ultramarines Warlord Trait, but that's one of the better ones so...
I actually like Calgar, but for something like 15-20 more points than Calgar you can get a Captain and Lt. Both with jump packs, Storm Bolters and Thunder Hammers and have:
1. More buffs
2. More wounds
3. More Attacks
4. Which do flat 3 damage
5. More maneuverability
6. Fill your battalion HQ requirement.
7. Freedom of Warlord Trait.
As for Guilliman, the buffs you're really looking for are still just 6", and he costs a Captain with some gear, a Lt. With some gear, plus an entire full and well equipped Devastator squad (imo muuuuch better value) AND you still need to buy more HQs for your Battalion or whatever because he's a Lord of War. If you're after CPs, for the price of Guilliman you could buy another battalion.
So no, i don't think the existence of named characters lock you in at all. If you're fine with what they offer, that's cool, but options are good, and something that synergizes more with your army/style is good.
1. Getting rerolls of everything to hit is better and more reliable when armies are looking for their -1 To Hit or you actually want to do anything with your Overwatch, which is kinda important for a gunline army like Ultramarines.
2. It's only a few more wounds and doesn't have the damage reduction ability, which is VERY clutch against D2 weapons (one of the most wanted) and D3 weapons (which need 4 total to kill him, which is the same for those two dudes total) and D6 (needing 3 hits to their 2).
Durability is only increased against D1 attacks, which nobody is gonna aim at Calgar and only at those dudes with a 3+ save.
3. I'll grant you more attacks for the total models, but it's only 3 more total attacks with a penalty to hit. The Captain is only hitting 75% of the time (for all intents and purposes) and Calgar is hitting a LOT more often.
4. I'm not gonna argue on damage.
5. These are guys for a gunline. I'd argue you're wasting points and you'd have a better case if you didn't buy the Jump Packs.
6. Doesn't really matter as I can meet the requirement otherwise with Guard and he gives a Command Point bonus the moment he's Warlord.
7. The Ultramarines trait is one of the only good ones though. Even if you had freedom, you pick it when playing Ultramarines. Your argument here makes no sense. Why does choice matter when you're gonna default to something anyway?
Also if you WERE that desperate for CP even after making Roboute your Warlord (along with him getting the trait anyway generating more)...Guard exists.
1. You misunderstand, this is chapter master bonus, plus lt. Bonus. Not different buffs, flat out more buffs.
2. Building your own guy allows him to take a storm shield, therefore relic, getting the same bonus on one of your models.
3. More attacks, doing more damage per hit. Hitting less, wounding more.
4. See 3.
5. Jump Packs for mobile counter-assault, or mobile gunline, or you don't have to buy them and yeah, then you're getting more damage output and more buffs for fewer points. Because yeah, options.
6. You're building a guard battalion? Go ahead then, not my taste.
7. It's good. Others are also good, there's no defaulting here. I could take "Imperiums Sword" on a Jump Pack, Thunderhammer Chapter Master and feel pretty good about it.
You keep on this like options and customization are bad. That's just a bizzare stance to take, sorry.
Insectum7 wrote: 1. You misunderstand, this is chapter master bonus, plus lt. Bonus. Not different buffs, flat out more buffs.
2. Building your own guy allows him to take a storm shield, therefore relic, getting the same bonus on one of your models.
3. More attacks, doing more damage per hit. Hitting less, wounding more.
4. See 3.
5. Jump Packs for mobile counter-assault, or mobile gunline, or you don't have to buy them and yeah, then you're getting more damage output and more buffs for fewer points. Because yeah, options.
6. You're building a guard battalion? Go ahead then, not my taste.
7. It's good. Others are also good, there's no defaulting here. I could take "Imperiums Sword" on a Jump Pack, Thunderhammer Chapter Master and feel pretty good about it.
You keep on this like options and customization are bad. That's just a bizzare stance to take, sorry.
1. Which is an insane commitment on command points. You might as well default to the Ultramarines trait at that point...
2. Which is one relic slot. You don't get an infinite amount of relics like last edition. This means Banner or Teeth Of Terra or Crusaders Helm aren't without a CP because you needed to default to protecting a character. However, Calgar needs less protection and is therefore more independent. This allows someone else to gain a relic and be more independent. What you show is the opposite of synergy.
3. Which really only matters if they're next to each other to give each other their buffs. Wasn't one of the bonuses being able to cover more ground?
4. No the Jump Packs are wasted points. The moment you try and make a less durable unit like that counter assault, they get shot and die. There's no gunline you can make in this codex that can fix that. Plus counter charge doesn't make sense anyway because of the Ultramarines countering that in the first place. Fall back and shoot something and then you can let
Calgar shoot or punch it. There is once again little synergy there.
5. I'm just saying Calgar takes care of any Command Point needs. A standard game is 1750-2000 points. You can get a Battalion + Something else with Calgar, meaning more points going to better units without tax, and at the same time still giving plenty if command points.
6. Except that IS the default because you just wasted 3 CP and youbneed to gain some back.
Once again I'll repeat: Customization is not bad. What's bad is that Marine HQ section is so bad you default to Special Characters because you get bonuses on top of those rules. None of the other Codices suffer this issue of Generic vs Special. None.
You're making so many unfounded assumptions (like claiming a lack of synergy without knowing the rest of the army or intended tactics) at this point it's not worth the time to respond to. Others have already said why they use the chapter master upgrade, so when you say named characters are "default", you seem to be in an echo chamber of one.
I have been using the Primaris Captain with a Power Fist and I give him the Santic Halo plus currently SoF WLT. I also have a Primaris Lt and they work quite well together. I’ve recently added a Techmarine with combi-Plasma and ToF since he can take a chainsword. Cast MoH on him and he’s a real beast in melee. The BS2 plasma is quite nice too. I used to run Calgar he’s the next set of training wheels once your done using Bobby G. Honestly the generic HQ are fine and offer their own advantages.
Honour Guard [2 PL, 52pts] . Honour Guard: Power axe
. Honour Guard: Power axe
Sternguard Veteran Squad [14 PL, 180pts] . Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Veteran Sergeant . . Special Issue Boltgun/Bolt Pistol: Special issue boltgun
+ Dedicated Transport +
Rhino [4 PL, 72pts]: Storm bolter
++ Total: [108 PL, 1997pts] ++
I haven't gotten to do it yet, but I REALLY want my Sternguard to be near the Lieutenant, Pedro, and the Rhino Primaris(which would use it's Targeting Skull) just one time, so I can have them fire off 20 shots (rerolling misses, 5s and 6s add an additional shot because I would use Bolter Drill) and then turn around and drop Masterful Marksmanship (rerolling 1s because Lieutenant). Just one time. Just to see how many wounds they can put on something. I am really curious what the math would be on them shooting into a big blob of Orcs.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: The Rhino Primaris is honestly a pretty bad deal. I would flatout remove it.
Get three Tarantula Sentry Guns and you can make a Brigade for much more CP.
Really? I know it is pricey at 170 pts, but it provides a decent bonus. I will look into alternatives in my models though. As for a Brigade, I am way short on Troops to pull that off. Taking the Rhino Primaris out necessitates another HQ as well. Any recommendations? I am leaning toward adding a Librarian.
Haven't played my Ultramarines in a while, going to be playing them on Sunday. It's a competitive environment so i expect to get crushed, but will have fun regardless.
Here's what I'm planning on so far.
Battalion: Ultramarines HQ Chief Librarian Tigurius (Might of heroes, psychic fortress, null zone) Captain /w Jump Pack + Teeth of Terra relic
Fast Attack Inceptor Squad /w Double Assault Bolters
Heavy Devastator Squad with only one heavy - Heavy Bolter, Armorium Cherub Devastator Squad with only one heavy - Missile Launcher, Armorium Cherub
Flyer Storm Raven Gunship /w Twin Assault Cannon, Two Hurricane Bolters, Two Stormstrike Missile Launchers, Twin Multi-Meltas
Super Heavy Auxiliary Detachment: Ultramarines Lord of War Roboute Guilliman
This leaves me 220 points to work with. The obvious choice would be to find a way to get 2 assault cannon razorbacks. Or i could just be totally awesome and another venerable dreadnought. Another thought I had was to bring another detachment and bring Celestine. It'd cost me -1 CP but who cares, I have 11 right now and get them back on a 5+.
I'd like some feedback on this list. I'm working on trying to incorporate more Razorbacks into my lists to keep troops safe, faster objective grabbing, and solid firepower. Rely on the Tanks and Hellblasters vs tanks.
Is there a better chapter tactic for this list? Idea is to have the Jump LT and Terminators challenge a flank objective, or come in my deployment zone to keep away charging units trying to tie up my tanks, popping killshot as often as I can.
Comes in at 9CP, and 12 Drops
Spoiler:
++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [65 PL, 1249pts] ++ + No Force Org Slot +
**Chapter Selection**: Ultramarines
+ HQ +
Captain [5 PL, 77pts]: Adept of the Codex, Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Master-crafted boltgun, Teeth of Terra, Warlord
CT stop being a donkeigh cave duder. I mean your opening statement is an insult. What is funny is you are the one who has said you are a casual player.
I prefer UM CT. -1 to hit is not that great IMO and SftS can backfire, Marines don't really have anything great in melee that throw out a meaningful number of attacks. I used to use Calgar but he is basically the next set of training wheels (i.e., smaller radius) once you have learned how to play without RB. I do use Tiggy and he is hands down one of the best psykers in the game for the points plus the -1 to hit buff is great combined with MoH.
I'm making a competitive list, and your response is, "oh, gee, hmm, i'm so good, hmm, gee, i tone down my lists otherwise i dominate so hard, i'm the best, geee hmmmm geeeee."
Come on.
Comments like "training wheels..." etc... don't hurt yourself flexing in front of the mirror.
Primark G wrote: CT stop being a donkeigh cave duder. I mean your opening statement is an insult. What is funny is you are the one who has said you are a casual player.
I prefer UM CT. -1 to hit is not that great IMO and SftS can backfire, Marines don't really have anything great in melee that throw out a meaningful number of attacks. I used to use Calgar but he is basically the next set of training wheels (i.e., smaller radius) once you have learned how to play without RB. I do use Tiggy and he is hands down one of the best psykers in the game for the points plus the -1 to hit buff is great combined with MoH.
>Says -1 to hit is not great
>Then next says a -1 to hit is great with MoH >Forgets you can get a -1 to hit for most of the former
@ Marmatag - I have seen you say pretty much the same. If you are running pure SM list they are best at shooting not melee. RGCT does not buff shooting. U CT makes units effectively have keyword Fly which is a big deal.
@ iGuy - I would take a Dev squad - maybe something like:
Primark G wrote: @ Marmatag - I have seen you say pretty much the same. If you are running pure SM list they are best at shooting not melee. RGCT does not buff shooting. U CT makes units effectively have keyword Fly which is a big deal.
@ iGuy - I would take a Dev squad - maybe something like:
2x HB 2x ML Cherub
You can pop the MW strats with this squad.
Gives me a solid amount of buffer to throw some extra bodies in there, or a pair of lascannons as well. Not a bad idea.
I'm running devastator squads with 1 heavy weapon. As it stands there are precious few ways to target a model, so you don't need to pay the extra points for a second heavy bolter or a second missile launcher.
This way, against Fly models like Custode bikes, you can put out 4D3 mortal wounds the first turn (assuming you roll well enough to hit, with a +1 from signum, and full rerolls from Guilliman). Adding an extra missile launcher or extra heavy bolter is a waste of points. You wouldn't bring a heavy bolter or missile launcher without the stratagem. The points are better spent elsewhere.
Here's my 2k so far. This isn't amazingly good but it gets the job done against some meta lists.
The predator is not a wise choice but I want to play it. This model is endeared to me, as it did amazing work back in 7th edition in a very specific game against Genestealer cults, when it was armed with heavy bolters. I would drop it for a dreadnought, but ultimately a venerable dreadnought doesn't put out enough shots to justify its cost.
Obviously this list would be better with dropping the Raven, the Predator, and the Razorbacks, and investing those points in Imperial Guard and their artillery. This could get me 30 bodies to screen, and a few artillery tanks. I could comfortably bring 2x Manticore, for 4d6 strength 10 ap-2 d3 shots anywhere on the board per turn. Perhaps a Leman Russ tank commander in a Punisher. I know there are better ways to spend the points.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I'd say to always add an extra heavy weapon to the Devastator squad. A Lascannon at minimum would work.
To each their own. Two extra lascannons at the cost of something else really. I could get 130 points back by taking 2 lascannons and skipping the predator. Swap in another razorback with an assault canno. It's probably more efficient to do that. But then again, I like the predator autocannon. It's use case is dramatically better in the age of models have an invuln save that makes AP-2 overkill, but AP-1 is perfect.
As i said, i bring the predator for sentimental reasons.
For the weapon options for Tactical Marines, what would you say is the purpose of each?
For instance, Melta looks like it's for short-range vehicle destruction, but then I look at Grav and I'm not sure.
Same deal with Plasma and Grav.
Some are obvious: Heavy Bolters for mowing down infantry, Lascannons for long-range tank explosions, but some of them seem to have a weird overlap where I can't get a grasp on which is, with the new rules, most efficient for which job.
I would run your Dev squads with 1 HB and 1 ML in each. That extra 35 points goes a long way just in case you have 2 units you want to flak missile and an extra heavy bolter guy is decent for the shots. There are some pesky armies that will bolt across the table and tie up a unit 40" away from them so I don't mind paying the 35 points for a bit of redundancy.
I'm starting to like dakka ceptors with gman better than AC razors. I like being able to keep them off the table and you are giving up big game hunter with 4 10w + models. Besides, they both seem to die to a stiff breeze anyways, might as well go for more dakka. s5 vs s6 w/in gmans aura is offset by significantly more shots for a similar price (although you do lose out on the HKMs which are great alpha)
I haven't run the points on this but it seems close:
tiggy
techmarine
LCtac squad x2
scouts
2x dakka ceptors
2x AC + HB preds
Stormraven
Gman
Culexus
Nothing about this list is optimized (DW interceptor squads + DA plasma inceptors and some gold bois if I can figure out how to squeeze them in is my new hotness but I paint soooo slooowwwww) and your nids would beat it handily but it is fun to play as an underdog.
I don't like mixing gman with too many points of allies because he needs to be buffing around 800 points of marines to make it even worth having him in your army (IMHO). To have 800 points of marines around him means starting with at least 1200 points + his 400 points leaves you only a couple hundred for screens/back field objectives...
Nightbringer's Chosen wrote: For the weapon options for Tactical Marines, what would you say is the purpose of each?
For instance, Melta looks like it's for short-range vehicle destruction, but then I look at Grav and I'm not sure.
Same deal with Plasma and Grav.
Some are obvious: Heavy Bolters for mowing down infantry, Lascannons for long-range tank explosions, but some of them seem to have a weird overlap where I can't get a grasp on which is, with the new rules, most efficient for which job.
Plasma is good vs. everything. You really want to overcharge it, so should be in a re-roll bubble.
Grav fills a similar role as plasma. IMHO it’s better then non-overcharge plasma, not as good as full burn. If you are running non supported backfield harassers, I’d prefer it over plasma. YMMV.
Melta still has an edge in killing hard targets at close range. I think it’s a bit overpriced (and plasma is underpriced) but melta still gets the job done. You do give up a lot for the slight niche edge they get.
Flamers autohit on overwatch? I still field mine, and they occasionally shine, but d6 hits really wasn’t a decent swap for the template. At least they are cheep.
HBs are decent mid S firepower.
MLs are flexible
(both those have stratagems that can do mortal wounds)
PCs I’m not a huge fan of, but they are decent generalist weapons. I just dislike D3 shots
MMs on foot are overpriced. The -1 to hit hurts, and you pay a lot to take them. When melta was cheep choice it made a lot more sense. At a premium price, it’s lackluster.
GC, like grav guns, work OK when not supported. If you are going to drop pod behind enemy lines, might be nice to have. Not terrible,
LCs pop tanks and giant monsters. There are generally plenty of those that need killing.
Honour Guard [2 PL, 52pts] . Honour Guard: Power axe
. Honour Guard: Power axe
Sternguard Veteran Squad [14 PL, 180pts] . Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Space Marine Veteran: Special issue boltgun
. Veteran Sergeant . . Special Issue Boltgun/Bolt Pistol: Special issue boltgun
+ Dedicated Transport +
Rhino [4 PL, 72pts]: Storm bolter
++ Total: [108 PL, 1997pts] ++
I haven't gotten to do it yet, but I REALLY want my Sternguard to be near the Lieutenant, Pedro, and the Rhino Primaris(which would use it's Targeting Skull) just one time, so I can have them fire off 20 shots (rerolling misses, 5s and 6s add an additional shot because I would use Bolter Drill) and then turn around and drop Masterful Marksmanship (rerolling 1s because Lieutenant). Just one time. Just to see how many wounds they can put on something. I am really curious what the math would be on them shooting into a big blob of Orcs.
I would look at taking an ancient instead of the honor guard. If you are bringing marines on foot with lots of heavy/special weapons (hellblasters, devs, etc.) then the ancient can be really good, especially if you give him standard of the emperor ascendant. I have had lots of success with the ancient backing up my hellblasters. Remember when your guys die you can shoot enemy units that haven't shot in your opponents shooting phase yet, denying your opponent shots. Also they benefit from buffs as well.
As far as the rhino primaris goes, I have been meaning to try it myself however I was thinking about using it with full unit of hellblasters. It could work but it is rather expensive.
Also you may want to just keep the chainsword on the lieutenant. If you think you are going to end up in combat just give him the teeth of terra before the game. That weapon is amazing IMO.
Primark G wrote: CT stop being a donkeigh cave duder. I mean your opening statement is an insult. What is funny is you are the one who has said you are a casual player.
I prefer UM CT. -1 to hit is not that great IMO and SftS can backfire, Marines don't really have anything great in melee that throw out a meaningful number of attacks. I used to use Calgar but he is basically the next set of training wheels (i.e., smaller radius) once you have learned how to play without RB. I do use Tiggy and he is hands down one of the best psykers in the game for the points plus the -1 to hit buff is great combined with MoH.
>Says -1 to hit is not great
>Then next says a -1 to hit is great with MoH >Forgets you can get a -1 to hit for most of the former
Well, Tigurius does allow you to put a -1 on units that don't get the RG chapter tactics. Buffing the Storm Raven to a -2, for example.
I always thought RB is a crutch. It seems like an okay list though. Lasbacks are good too.
They're competitive games. Without RG Ultramarines are flatly inferior to Raven Guard, Salamanders, Dark Angels, Blood Angels...
Hmm, I dunno about that. I think it's definitely a playstyle choice over RG, who are encouraged to keep their distance. Salamanders bring a great CT, but it encourages fewer, high-power weapons. UM tactics encourage bigger squads and aggressive, messy cqb which is my preference. Having an army that can always fall back and shoot is invaluable to me.
I can't speak to BA or DA, but they seem to trend with other emphasis.
Primark G wrote: CT stop being a donkeigh cave duder. I mean your opening statement is an insult. What is funny is you are the one who has said you are a casual player.
I prefer UM CT. -1 to hit is not that great IMO and SftS can backfire, Marines don't really have anything great in melee that throw out a meaningful number of attacks. I used to use Calgar but he is basically the next set of training wheels (i.e., smaller radius) once you have learned how to play without RB. I do use Tiggy and he is hands down one of the best psykers in the game for the points plus the -1 to hit buff is great combined with MoH.
>Says -1 to hit is not great
>Then next says a -1 to hit is great with MoH >Forgets you can get a -1 to hit for most of the former
Well, Tigurius does allow you to put a -1 on units that don't get the RG chapter tactics. Buffing the Storm Raven to a -2, for example.
I always thought RB is a crutch. It seems like an okay list though. Lasbacks are good too.
They're competitive games. Without RG Ultramarines are flatly inferior to Raven Guard, Salamanders, Dark Angels, Blood Angels...
Hmm, I dunno about that. I think it's definitely a playstyle choice over RG, who are encouraged to keep their distance. Salamanders bring a great CT, but it encourages fewer, high-power weapons. UM tactics encourage bigger squads and aggressive, messy cqb which is my preference. Having an army that can always fall back and shoot is invaluable to me.
I can't speak to BA or DA, but they seem to trend with other emphasis.
You're missing the point completely. It's two completely contradictory statements. He says a basic -1 To Hit isn't good and then says how great it is.
I'd like a slight amount of consistency from Primark.
Primark G wrote: CT stop being a donkeigh cave duder. I mean your opening statement is an insult. What is funny is you are the one who has said you are a casual player.
I prefer UM CT. -1 to hit is not that great IMO and SftS can backfire, Marines don't really have anything great in melee that throw out a meaningful number of attacks. I used to use Calgar but he is basically the next set of training wheels (i.e., smaller radius) once you have learned how to play without RB. I do use Tiggy and he is hands down one of the best psykers in the game for the points plus the -1 to hit buff is great combined with MoH.
Im a casual player but im still perfectly capable of a analyzing the meta and paying attention to what are and are not power lists. I used to have my Draigo + Tigurius Centurion Star, or my bike captain smashfether.
You are obviously a casual player as well if you think Allarus are good or the UM tactics are great. I will play UM until the day I die, but I am aware that without the good reasons to take them (RG, MC) they fall behind overall army power compared to DA, BA, and RG. Maybe you are the big fish in your pond, but dont mistake it for being hardcore, especially when you stick to your opinions despite math and tournament results disagreeing with you.
As for the UM tactic, the -1 to hit isnt game breaking, but unfrotunately the high ranking meta heavily favours shooting over close combat, which weakens our situational tactic to merely being +1 LD. That being said, I always pined for Combat Tactics back after the 6th edition codex launched, since it was an unstated hero in a lot of games.
My personal suggestion for using Guilliman is to either load up on Hellblasters or Razorbacks and introduce them to as much shooting as you can, hopefully killing them before you lose too many dudes. Dont be afraid to move Guilliman up, as a lot of unimaginitive players just hang him back as a reroll battery, when Marneus Calgar and a LT would be just as good, or even a cheap captain and a LT would do. If you want to get your 400 points worth he needs to hit things.
As for Primarks statement about the negatives to hit, he is referring to the negative suffered to falling back And shooting as UM, and then saying that Tigurius providing it is good. Hes not being contradictory in this case, just not being completely clear. Though if you want -1 to be hit, why wouldnt you just play Raven Guard instead?
Ultramarine infantry units basically have the keyword Fly which is huge. Sure it’s -1 to hit but 4+ is okay... I’m sure Ork players wish they could hit on 4+ like AM and Tau. Never seen RG win any major events or place well. Allarus work for me - they protect my fire base... it’s not rocket science and they always get their points back every time. Okay you don’t understand and that’s okay too.
Ultramarines are only winning because of Roboute and those wins have steadily dropped with the nerfs that happened to Assault Cannon Razorbacks and Roboute himself. You DO realize that, right?
Primark G wrote: Ultramarine infantry units basically have the keyword Fly which is huge. Sure it’s -1 to hit but 4+ is okay... I’m sure Ork players wish they could hit on 4+ like AM and Tau. Never seen RG win any major events or place well. Allarus work for me - they protect my fire base... it’s not rocket science and they always get their points back every time. Okay you don’t understand and that’s okay too.
Thank you for showing you aren’t a competitive player / don’t follow the tournament scene. RG won/places highly in a few events, one where minimum Tacs with lascannons were spammed with the Assback, one with Stormraven spam and one with Fire Raptors. Pretty much anytime there was a strong Codex marine unit, there was a RG list to push it over the top.
Now a days, there isn’t much that our Codex can do that another can’t do better. Deathwatch out Primaris us, Dark Angels out gun-line, and Blood Angels and Custodes out close range us.
Now, I don’t Think anyone would have a problem with you providing your two cents (and shouldn’t) if you did not continually argue for pages that you were correct, damn whatever the math that was shown said and what tournament results have shown.
Now, it’s obvious you have a melee heavy meta in your area, or at least enough of one that the chapter tactic comes into effect. In the bigger picture that the internet presents, the game is tilted towards shooting, which means we don’t get much use out of the Fly-1 rule. The same goes for Allarus- if the enemy is doing your terminators the favour of coming directly to you, obviously they are going to shine. Bikes overall put out more damage however, except against edge cases. They are also capable of quickly crossing the board and coming to grips with the enemy.
What don’t we understand? You like playing suboptimal lists with large squads (I do too), so that’s why you pick UM. You even said the latte part yourself.
Again you don’t understand... armies such as Tyranids, CSM, Necrons, Dark Eldar and others have good-great melee units but not at the expense of shooting... none are played as primarily melee based. I don’t play in a melee heavy meta.
What are the big events (LVO, NOVA, Adepticon level) that RG won?
I’ve never said Vertus Praetors are inferior to Allarus. It’s just you don’t understand why Allarus are good.
godardc wrote: Any tips in fighting newcrons with Ultramarines (and without primabominations) ?
Taking Guilliman is your best bet, in my last game against Necron he killed T-Ctan (2 lucky 6s to wound rolled followed by 5 and 6 so I got 6 mortal wound in addition to other damage), a full squad of Destroyers and the remaining 2 Wraiths, in addition to his buff to devastators and TFC, which make sure I only lost by the 1st blood under the situation that my opponent stole the initiative. But if you don't like it. Take Calgar + Lieutenant + Ancient relic banner and 2 big blob of fully upgraded Devastators, one with 4 Missile Launcher (or 3 LC and 1 ML) the other with 3 PC and 1 HB. Aim the Krak missiles against the Wraith, Destroyers, Plasma against Arks and Barges. Basically all Necron non-infantry unit along with a good whole bunch of heavy lifting infantries have fly. Rememeber to make good use of those stratagems, they are Emperor sent for SM to have a hope combatting Necrons. Also, take some Librarians, Necron have no psychic defence, Marine psychic power pale against Daemon / Eldar / Tyranids, but can be brutal against Necron or Tau. If they have Wraiths / Ctans getting into your line, and you are not dead yet, move up your Tigirius and pop Null Zone then you can kill them with volleys of Krak missiles / plasma fire.
Remember to take long range weaponary and deploy your units far back as possible. Necrons are short range in general so they need to come to you, and their trickery would only let a couple footsloging units to be "in your face" quick and many of the component needed to perform those trickery (like Deceiver Ctan, Night Scythe, Monolith) are very expensive. So your main focus can be the fast moving Destroyers and / or Wraiths and / or Tombblades, preferrably destroyers first because they are vunerable to AP-4/3/2 weapons, and being more dangerous to marines from mid-range away, while Wraiths need MW to reliably put down. If they take Wraiths, be careful on your bubble warp, you need to ensure they cannot phase through your screen to reach the juicy devastator / tanks behind.
Primark G wrote: CT stop being a donkeigh cave duder. I mean your opening statement is an insult. What is funny is you are the one who has said you are a casual player.
I prefer UM CT. -1 to hit is not that great IMO and SftS can backfire, Marines don't really have anything great in melee that throw out a meaningful number of attacks. I used to use Calgar but he is basically the next set of training wheels (i.e., smaller radius) once you have learned how to play without RB. I do use Tiggy and he is hands down one of the best psykers in the game for the points plus the -1 to hit buff is great combined with MoH.
>Says -1 to hit is not great
>Then next says a -1 to hit is great with MoH >Forgets you can get a -1 to hit for most of the former
Well, Tigurius does allow you to put a -1 on units that don't get the RG chapter tactics. Buffing the Storm Raven to a -2, for example.
I always thought RB is a crutch. It seems like an okay list though. Lasbacks are good too.
They're competitive games. Without RG Ultramarines are flatly inferior to Raven Guard, Salamanders, Dark Angels, Blood Angels...
Hmm, I dunno about that. I think it's definitely a playstyle choice over RG, who are encouraged to keep their distance. Salamanders bring a great CT, but it encourages fewer, high-power weapons. UM tactics encourage bigger squads and aggressive, messy cqb which is my preference. Having an army that can always fall back and shoot is invaluable to me.
I can't speak to BA or DA, but they seem to trend with other emphasis.
You're missing the point completely. It's two completely contradictory statements. He says a basic -1 To Hit isn't good and then says how great it is.
I'd like a slight amount of consistency from Primark.
I did not miss the point, I merely pointed out another one.
But hey, why discuss how abilities might be different when we can just focus on bashing other posters? Really, there's probably a more productive way to go about it.
Primark G wrote: CT stop being a donkeigh cave duder. I mean your opening statement is an insult. What is funny is you are the one who has said you are a casual player.
I prefer UM CT. -1 to hit is not that great IMO and SftS can backfire, Marines don't really have anything great in melee that throw out a meaningful number of attacks. I used to use Calgar but he is basically the next set of training wheels (i.e., smaller radius) once you have learned how to play without RB. I do use Tiggy and he is hands down one of the best psykers in the game for the points plus the -1 to hit buff is great combined with MoH.
>Says -1 to hit is not great
>Then next says a -1 to hit is great with MoH >Forgets you can get a -1 to hit for most of the former
Well, Tigurius does allow you to put a -1 on units that don't get the RG chapter tactics. Buffing the Storm Raven to a -2, for example.
I always thought RB is a crutch. It seems like an okay list though. Lasbacks are good too.
They're competitive games. Without RG Ultramarines are flatly inferior to Raven Guard, Salamanders, Dark Angels, Blood Angels...
Hmm, I dunno about that. I think it's definitely a playstyle choice over RG, who are encouraged to keep their distance. Salamanders bring a great CT, but it encourages fewer, high-power weapons. UM tactics encourage bigger squads and aggressive, messy cqb which is my preference. Having an army that can always fall back and shoot is invaluable to me.
I can't speak to BA or DA, but they seem to trend with other emphasis.
You're missing the point completely. It's two completely contradictory statements. He says a basic -1 To Hit isn't good and then says how great it is.
I'd like a slight amount of consistency from Primark.
I did not miss the point, I merely pointed out another one.
But hey, why discuss how abilities might be different when we can just focus on bashing other posters? Really, there's probably a more productive way to go about it.
I mean, the dude is one of the worst contributors to the Custodes thread so...
-1 to hit for Ultramarine infantry units to hit while shooting if they fall back is much better than not being able to shoot at all. An ability that makes a unit -1 to hit is different... again a unit targeting said unit can still shoot it. How often do you see the person shooting roll all hits or most hits - it happens. -2+ to hit is really good though.
Primark G wrote: -1 to hit for Ultramarine infantry units to hit while shooting if they fall back is much better than not being able to shoot at all. An ability that makes a unit -1 to hit is different... again a unit targeting said unit can still shoot it. How often do you see the person shooting roll all hits or most hits - it happens. -2+ to hit is really good though.
Here's the thing though: it hardly ever happens. When people charge they're charging to kill so you don't fall back anyway.
That's not my experience at all. Hormagaunts are rarely killing units, for example. Arguably their main purpose is to engage and disrupt. The famous "assault rhino" isnt charging to kill, it's charging to disrupt. Scouts aren't assaulting to kill either. We have a Tau player who rams his devilfish into assault all the time. It's an incredibly useful tactic.
In fact we have a thread in proposed rules about how fallback is too powerful, so I think your assertion is far from the universal sentiment.
godardc wrote: Any tips in fighting newcrons with Ultramarines (and without primabominations) ?
You're at least running Calgar right?
Is it Quantum Shield spam or Immortal spam or Wraith spam or Destroyer Spam? I need more info as I am primarily a Necron player.
I don't think he is gonna spam, he has a bit of all (I know he has about 300 pts of destroyers, 330 od wraiths, 20 immortals, the Deceiver, 10 lychaguards and a lord with the tp relic) !
Thanks for the tips guys !
@ insectum - Yeah often it’s not case for me either. Many times I’ve finished off enemy units by falling back and shooting them. Shooting is overall more powerful this edition.
Insectum7 wrote: That's not my experience at all. Hormagaunts are rarely killing units, for example. Arguably their main purpose is to engage and disrupt. The famous "assault rhino" isnt charging to kill, it's charging to disrupt. Scouts aren't assaulting to kill either. We have a Tau player who rams his devilfish into assault all the time. It's an incredibly useful tactic.
In fact we have a thread in proposed rules about how fallback is too powerful, so I think your assertion is far from the universal sentiment.
And how many units aren't going to die to that many Hormagaunts that actually have the Ultramarines Chapter Tactics? The HQ units?
godardc wrote: Any tips in fighting newcrons with Ultramarines (and without primabominations) ?
You're at least running Calgar right?
Is it Quantum Shield spam or Immortal spam or Wraith spam or Destroyer Spam? I need more info as I am primarily a Necron player.
I don't think he is gonna spam, he has a bit of all (I know he has about 300 pts of destroyers, 330 od wraiths, 20 immortals, the Deceiver, 10 lychaguards and a lord with the tp relic) !
Thanks for the tips guys !
The best counter to Destroyers and Wraiths is the Autocannon provided by the Predator. Otherwise use an extra squad of Scouts with those minimum three to stop Deep Strike shenanigans (to an extent) from Destroyers and the Veil and so on.
Everytime i play ultras, i kill one unit and take a hostage in another. The um chapter tactic doesn't prevent hostages, which is pretty catastrophic. I don't play vs ultras that often, though.
Martel732 wrote: Everytime i play ultras, i kill one unit and take a hostage in another. The um chapter tactic doesn't prevent hostages, which is pretty catastrophic. I don't play vs ultras that often, though.
Martel732 wrote: It's when you surround a model with charges/pile-ins and don't allow it to fall back.
I agree with this. If anything non-fly in Space Marine army got charged by full strength hordes Genestealers, Hormagants or Ork greentide. It generally have 2 consequences, 1 is wiped outright, 2 is being "taken hostage" so those hordes can wipe them out in your turn to avoid being shot by you, and charge into your next unit back in their turn. You will generally hope the 1st consequence to occur.
However, if what charges you is a trukk, Rhino, Eldar Wave Serpent or Harlequin Skyweaver. Then fall back and shoot is much more valuable
Insectum7 wrote: That's not my experience at all. Hormagaunts are rarely killing units, for example. Arguably their main purpose is to engage and disrupt. The famous "assault rhino" isnt charging to kill, it's charging to disrupt. Scouts aren't assaulting to kill either. We have a Tau player who rams his devilfish into assault all the time. It's an incredibly useful tactic.
In fact we have a thread in proposed rules about how fallback is too powerful, so I think your assertion is far from the universal sentiment.
Realistically - you won't be able to fall back from hormagants - they have a 6 inch pile in. They surround you and you can't escape.
Vs Smart opponents - ultra marines chapter tactic is basically no tactic at all. Guilliman is your chapter tactic. Which is a joke.
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Martel732 wrote: Everytime i play ultras, i kill one unit and take a hostage in another. The um chapter tactic doesn't prevent hostages, which is pretty catastrophic. I don't play vs ultras that often, though.
Bharring wrote: So when you take casualties, kill who they surrounded? Just make sure you're positioned so they can only surround a few guys?
yeah - that can work but if you are in combat with like 25+ hormas - everyone is surrounded because they have no problem piling in behind you. In order to fall back every model in your unit has to be outside of 1" of enemy models and you can't move through their units.
Bharring wrote: So when you take casualties, kill who they surrounded? Just make sure you're positioned so they can only surround a few guys?
I charge intersections of units, and only one of units. The hostage is coming from a unit I can't legally damage. Takes a lot of practice, because assault. In a pinch, I can blow the 3 CP.
Hormagaunts and such don't have to resort to such shenanigans.
Insectum7 wrote: That's not my experience at all. Hormagaunts are rarely killing units, for example. Arguably their main purpose is to engage and disrupt. The famous "assault rhino" isnt charging to kill, it's charging to disrupt. Scouts aren't assaulting to kill either. We have a Tau player who rams his devilfish into assault all the time. It's an incredibly useful tactic.
In fact we have a thread in proposed rules about how fallback is too powerful, so I think your assertion is far from the universal sentiment.
And how many units aren't going to die to that many Hormagaunts that actually have the Ultramarines Chapter Tactics? The HQ units?
Check yo'self before you wreck yo'self. A 30 man Hormagaunt unit averages about 4 SM kills. So every unit besides Scouts with their poorer save can survive, plus it's pretty rare that a full unit of Hormagaunts isn't taking casualties before hitting the main line anyways.
Martel732 wrote: It's when you surround a model with charges/pile-ins and don't allow it to fall back.
Insectum7 wrote: That's not my experience at all. Hormagaunts are rarely killing units, for example. Arguably their main purpose is to engage and disrupt. The famous "assault rhino" isnt charging to kill, it's charging to disrupt. Scouts aren't assaulting to kill either. We have a Tau player who rams his devilfish into assault all the time. It's an incredibly useful tactic.
In fact we have a thread in proposed rules about how fallback is too powerful, so I think your assertion is far from the universal sentiment.
Realistically - you won't be able to fall back from hormagants - they have a 6 inch pile in. They surround you and you can't escape.
Vs Smart opponents - ultra marines chapter tactic is basically no tactic at all. Guilliman is your chapter tactic. Which is a joke.
I'm chalking this up to unprepared players, because it's been pretty easy for me to prevent "hostage taking" by forming "walls" with units contacting each other, not allowing any unit surrounding. It can be broken with a "fight again" stratagem sometimes, but that can amount to 3 CPs for only a few more casialties and maaaybe unit lock, depending on what's going on. Results are very particular to the situation. But against Tyranids actual physical unit barriers have done wonders for me, allowing lots of fall-back-and-fire opportunities.
With all the flying baddies running around anyone using stalkers as cheap t8 anti-custode/flyrant/de/destroyer/harlie/magnus/morty?
110ish points for 6 s7 -1 2d shots doesn't seem like the worst deal in the world combined with 11 t8 wounds but I'm not sure those points wouldn't be better spent somewhere else and the 2+ vs flying is great but 4+ vs anything else really isn't. I do need some on the board power level so I've been looking for something tough to leave out there so I can deepstrike my squishy stuff and this is the cheapest/most resilient force I see.
The only thing putting me off is they would require a castle of some sort to just not get tied up in combat and I've been trying to get away from static gunlines (mostly because they are boring to play and other armies do that better).
I guess if I really want some t8 in my army I should probably just get a knight/IG ally but I figured it was worth an ask.
Insectum7 wrote: That's not my experience at all. Hormagaunts are rarely killing units, for example. Arguably their main purpose is to engage and disrupt. The famous "assault rhino" isnt charging to kill, it's charging to disrupt. Scouts aren't assaulting to kill either. We have a Tau player who rams his devilfish into assault all the time. It's an incredibly useful tactic.
In fact we have a thread in proposed rules about how fallback is too powerful, so I think your assertion is far from the universal sentiment.
And how many units aren't going to die to that many Hormagaunts that actually have the Ultramarines Chapter Tactics? The HQ units?
Check yo'self before you wreck yo'self. A 30 man Hormagaunt unit averages about 4 SM kills. So every unit besides Scouts with their poorer save can survive, plus it's pretty rare that a full unit of Hormagaunts isn't taking casualties before hitting the main line anyways.
Martel732 wrote: It's when you surround a model with charges/pile-ins and don't allow it to fall back.
Insectum7 wrote: That's not my experience at all. Hormagaunts are rarely killing units, for example. Arguably their main purpose is to engage and disrupt. The famous "assault rhino" isnt charging to kill, it's charging to disrupt. Scouts aren't assaulting to kill either. We have a Tau player who rams his devilfish into assault all the time. It's an incredibly useful tactic.
In fact we have a thread in proposed rules about how fallback is too powerful, so I think your assertion is far from the universal sentiment.
Realistically - you won't be able to fall back from hormagants - they have a 6 inch pile in. They surround you and you can't escape.
Vs Smart opponents - ultra marines chapter tactic is basically no tactic at all. Guilliman is your chapter tactic. Which is a joke.
I'm chalking this up to unprepared players, because it's been pretty easy for me to prevent "hostage taking" by forming "walls" with units contacting each other, not allowing any unit surrounding. It can be broken with a "fight again" stratagem sometimes, but that can amount to 3 CPs for only a few more casialties and maaaybe unit lock, depending on what's going on. Results are very particular to the situation. But against Tyranids actual physical unit barriers have done wonders for me, allowing lots of fall-back-and-fire opportunities.
yeah if you're letting your units get taken hostage you're I dunno rushing a tac squad out alone? that's asking for trouble
bananathug wrote: With all the flying baddies running around anyone using stalkers as cheap t8 anti-custode/flyrant/de/destroyer/harlie/magnus/morty?
110ish points for 6 s7 -1 2d shots doesn't seem like the worst deal in the world combined with 11 t8 wounds but I'm not sure those points wouldn't be better spent somewhere else and the 2+ vs flying is great but 4+ vs anything else really isn't. I do need some on the board power level so I've been looking for something tough to leave out there so I can deepstrike my squishy stuff and this is the cheapest/most resilient force I see.
The only thing putting me off is they would require a castle of some sort to just not get tied up in combat and I've been trying to get away from static gunlines (mostly because they are boring to play and other armies do that better).
I guess if I really want some t8 in my army I should probably just get a knight/IG ally but I figured it was worth an ask.
I've thought about it, but I went with what I already own, a twin autocannon venerable dreadnought. 156pts for 8 shots at nondegrading BS2 vs every target, 6+++, and chapter tactics. Admittedly no T8, but still seems a decent deal for 40 pts more vs the stalker unless you know for sure you'll always have fly targets.
Of course, the most frequent list suggestion I've gotten is to dump the venerable, so... I admit, infantry would likely be better, but I'm trying to run a Leviathan and feel like I need some other type of armor on the table to make the thing slightly less of the fire magnet it already is.
Anything short of a knight and your Leviathan will be the first target for your opponent. Everyone's wise to how insanely powerful they are these days, I've found.
Primark G wrote: -1 to hit for Ultramarine infantry units to hit while shooting if they fall back is much better than not being able to shoot at all. An ability that makes a unit -1 to hit is different... again a unit targeting said unit can still shoot it. How often do you see the person shooting roll all hits or most hits - it happens. -2+ to hit is really good though.
Here's the thing though: it hardly ever happens. When people charge they're charging to kill so you don't fall back anyway.
Disagree partly. Especially with vehicles tag charging is common strategy and for orks it's primary way to deal with them as killing vehicles is pure nightmare for orks. KMK's only go so long especially as they aren't that tough to destroy.
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Insectum7 wrote: That's not my experience at all. Hormagaunts are rarely killing units, for example. Arguably their main purpose is to engage and disrupt. The famous "assault rhino" isnt charging to kill, it's charging to disrupt. Scouts aren't assaulting to kill either. We have a Tau player who rams his devilfish into assault all the time. It's an incredibly useful tactic.
In fact we have a thread in proposed rules about how fallback is too powerful, so I think your assertion is far from the universal sentiment.
That's primary use for any chimera I might bring. Forget transport. BAH. Forget shooting. It's what it does while waiting for chance to target enemy unit for charge.
Martel732 wrote: It's when you surround a model with charges/pile-ins and don't allow it to fall back.
I agree with this. If anything non-fly in Space Marine army got charged by full strength hordes Genestealers, Hormagants or Ork greentide. It generally have 2 consequences, 1 is wiped outright, 2 is being "taken hostage" so those hordes can wipe them out in your turn to avoid being shot by you, and charge into your next unit back in their turn. You will generally hope the 1st consequence to occur.
However, if what charges you is a trukk, Rhino, Eldar Wave Serpent or Harlequin Skyweaver. Then fall back and shoot is much more valuable
Greentide has one issue though. It's not FAST unit. Surrounding requires sufficient distance especially when marine player positions stuff well or has multiple units side by side. Easy to say "surround". If your charge reaches just about front of unit and there's 2nd unit next to it you need to move a lot of stuff to surround. Sure you get 2 units into combat but...Well then they move back and blow things apart.
That's what I faced not that long time ago for example. Trio of dreadnoughts and some support characters. Sure I tagged lots of them into combat. Then they stepped back and fired 24 shots rerolling to hit rolls and was it even to wound rolls. Sure -1 hurt a bit but hitting on 3+ rerolling 1's resulted in tons of dead guys.
Wasn't even worst UM gunline(no Guillimann in the 1.5k list) but damn it fired and being vehicles orks struggled to take any out(and if it was alive it was healed) and tagging them in combat wasn't proving to be easy task.
Tyranids it might be bit easier. Faster(lot), ability to move twice in a turn, ability to fight twice...But orks are lot more predictable where they move and lot slower. Wall of units is pretty much not possible to surround. Especially if you aren't willing to wait couple extra turns to surround them more before charge and that just exposes you to more shooting. Can't even rely on da jump helping as a) getting them behind requires UM leave empty space there b) requires 9" charge which is 50-50.
Again you don’t understand... armies such as Tyranids, CSM, Necrons, Dark Eldar and others have good-great melee units but not at the expense of shooting... none are played as primarily melee based. I don’t play in a melee heavy meta.
What are the big events (LVO, NOVA, Adepticon level) that RG won?
I’ve never said Vertus Praetors are inferior to Allarus. It’s just you don’t understand why Allarus are good.
All armies that will either surround or wipe out a squad in close combat, or kill enough that it beinf able to shoot is almost pointless.
RG hasnt won any national level events, but if we only went off those results we would all be rushing out to buy Ork armies since it won in London. Of course, National Events are won by the new hotness, typically, and a lot of them have been plagued with drama and slowplay lately.
You spent over ten pages in the custodes thread arguing with math that points out the Praetors did more wounds in virtually every scenario. If your idea of good is protecting your gunline (so standing around waiting for you to be charged), then, woo, I guess? Praetors do everything the Terminators do, but better.
I have always maintained Allarus are a good unit and was trolled the classic response being you should only ever take jetbikes so what you have said above is less than true. While jetbikes are very good there are things that Allarus are much better at doing. I think that is hard for you to fathom. I know you can't drop it though after all this time and let it pass though because you are - well you know what you are.
"All armies that will either surround or wipe out a squad in close combat, or kill enough that it beinf able to shoot is almost pointless."
This is quite a silly statement - if a squad is wiped out it doesn't even matter. /rolleyes You cannot prove there are any armies that can always completely surround enemy units. Is this really the best you can do as a retort? ROFLMAO
I have never had any of my smurf squads wrapped following enemy melee - it is all about positioning.
way to sell that weapon
