Not sure if this has been brought up already, but I've seen people commenting that kustom jobs might be free since they haven't listed the points down in the points dataslate. If I remember correctly, I don't think we've seen it in older chapter approved back when it was still located in the books, wouldn't we still use the current points cost in the codex? I wouldn't mind them being free, just unsure if that's considered normal since then why wouldn't you just take as many as you can?
Well, the 40k App still shows the old points cost for the kustom jobs (whereas the darasheets got the new costs) so I wouldn't get my hopes too high...
Regardless they both compete for elite slots… the Kommandos cost 20pts more have More wounds, better saves, significantly more atks and Don’t require a transport. Imho nobs are still overpriced by at least 1pt but really 2. Nobs have +1 str but you do a lot less atks which you need when everything is -1ap (except klaw/saw)
To be fair kommandos have a better save.... while in cover. In combat, and we're talking about a melee unit, they're t-shirt save dudes while nobz have 4+ save. So against other models that don't wield melee weapons with high AP nobz are definitely tougher.
I don't think nobz are overpriced. They're just useless. Being elite and with their current rules/wargear they can either be too cheap and spammable or too expensive. They need to be troops, period. Then they'd be a legit option as they are, they could even be 1 or 2 points per model more expensive actually and still be ok.
Nobz have the issue that they don't have a niche. Massed Choppa attacks are covered by Kommandos, Boyz and Snaggas. PK attacks are covered by MANz. Shooty units are covered by Tankbustas, Burnas, Lootas and Flash Gitz.
The vast majority of the time they're taken for melee, so I think MANz need to be improved to give regular Nobz more breathing room as a discount PK delivery system unit.
Grimskul wrote:Not sure if this has been brought up already, but I've seen people commenting that kustom jobs might be free since they haven't listed the points down in the points dataslate. If I remember correctly, I don't think we've seen it in older chapter approved back when it was still located in the books, wouldn't we still use the current points cost in the codex? I wouldn't mind them being free, just unsure if that's considered normal since then why wouldn't you just take as many as you can?
I don't think kustom jobs have ever been in the points lists have they?
You know what nobs need powerstabbas to be ap-3 … the point is so they can be a high ap and low strength melee unit.. filly a niche orks lack…
If they were also exclusive to the nob datasheet as well (boys nobs can take them), I would definitely consider them as something to hunt average T, high save units.
Not gonna pretend it's competitive in any way, but between the waaaagh bonuses and CP cost for a super heavy aux detachment going away I'm finally motivated to finish painting up this Gorkanaut. Tellyporta and Big Krumpaz, let's go!
imo the cp cost for a superheavy was only one problem
The other is lack of kultures, i dont think i saw them change that part. GW doesnt price things expecting kultures to be there or not.
Well and frankly, spending 365 points on a platform that'll often hit on 6s to hit in shooting is just not gonna fly. It's combat profile is also just not that impressive for that points cost.
It's too inefficient. The stormsurge went up 70 points to 400 and still embarrasses all of our super heavies.
Only one sort of ok is the Kill Tank and just because it's so cheap and it hits on 4s.
xttz wrote: Not gonna pretend it's competitive in any way, but between the waaaagh bonuses and CP cost for a super heavy aux detachment going away I'm finally motivated to finish painting up this Gorkanaut. Tellyporta and Big Krumpaz, let's go!
It's definitely not good, but it's better than it was.
On that note though: now that it doesn't cost CP I might give the Kill Tank another go, specifically the Killbursta version.
It has D3 and AP-3, +1 to hit at half range, and it has a spiked ram.
Core would be;
Ghaz
Kill Tank
Snagga boys x2
Battlewagon x2
Grots x3
MANz
Then kommandos, Squighogs and Koptas to fill the rest of the points. Maybe Zagstruk to ride with the MANz.
Loads of T8 wounds, loads of scoring units and objective monkeys.
Vineheart01 wrote: imo the cp cost for a superheavy was only one problem
The other is lack of kultures, i dont think i saw them change that part. GW doesnt price things expecting kultures to be there or not.
I mean big krumpaz specialist detachment is pretty much given… +1 to hit melee
The only question is if you want to add kustomjobs aka stompa pistons Or shokka hull… 30pts is a lot though but movement 11 +1 to adv roll is nice for the gorkanaut.
With waaagh bonuses +1 atk and str, and -1ap shooting (+1 shot) And 5++ invul during waggh is good…
And your looking at 31 bs5+ Str6 ap-2 d1 shots And 22 str5 ap-1 d1 2x rokkits and skorcha
Followed by
18x str9 ap-2 d2 atks @ws2
The Morkanaut is useless… ignore it
The problem with the nauts is they are to easy to kill for the cost… even w 5++ 3+ t8 and 24wounds
Makari can give it fnp 6+ too but it evaporates quickly… it needs -1 damage or at minimum ramshackle
Currently packing up models for list a based around a brigade filled with bloodaxe kommadoz, beasty boyz, squigriders, zapkrumpas, stormboyz and *gasp* lootas.
So similar to the bomb squig list but with bloodaxe shenanigans sprinkled in. It will either be glorious or blow up in my face
Or bloodaxe brigade where you drop ghaz and makari and add more stuff like snikrot, stormboys, lootas, meganobs. I also want to try a bloodaxe list where I’m going for psychic interrogation and gaining a lot of command points..
You should switch out one of the squiggly curses - otherwise you'll not be able to cast a second power on the off chance that both are alive after your opponent's shooting phase.
I'm also not too sure on how viable Ghaz is anymore. Dropping him and makari allowed me to add three more units and a KFF for first turn, that seems to be more value to me. Then again, he is one of the few things that can smash a knights...
I'm also not a fan of units of 3 squig riders, 5 have served me much better.
I was trying to toy with an actual old school horde style list.
Currently working around:
Spoiler:
Goff, Boss on squig, killchoppa/BBK Big mek w. KFF Weirdboy, warpath, da jump
3x30 Boyz 2x10 grots 3x10 kommandos with bombs
Painboy with Big gob for 6inch 6+++
3x10 stormboyz.
Good bits for grots, maybe biggest and da best for my squig boss, and something else.
Explode KFF turn 1 for a 5++, and put things close enough for my 6+++ to work too, waaagh turn 2. Put things aggressively.
Da jump when possible and im if not running interrogation.
Not necessarily the most competitive but i could hopefully drown my opponent in bodies with old school boyz. they will suffer from morale though.
On a more serious note maybe something around:
Spoiler:
Goff squig boss w. killchoppa/BBK Big mek, KFF Weirdboy, warpath, fist of gork
4x10 snagga boys 2x10 grots for good bits
3x10 kommandos with bombs Painboy, big gob
3x5 Squig riders, with bombs
1 kill rig, roar of mork, frazzle 1 kill rig, Spirit of Gork, Squiggly curse.
Maybe both should have frazzle, im unsure about that just so i can at least cast it if one of em dies.
But there are many ideas. Maybe i should try an infantry heavy build with snakebites? Along side the KFF for 2 rounds of 5++ and a big gob painboss for a 6+++ as well. Mixed in with the snakebites transhuman along side Mozrog. Could be fun now. maybe even useful? To really maximize the survivability.
Beardedragon wrote: So..how does your new lists look like these days with these changes?.
No real changes to my Grot force.
Pts wise, since my grots got cheaper, I've got a spare 30pts floating about.
So I gave my Mega-Tank a shokka hull.
Detachment wise? In the event that i find myself in a Nephlim game, it just shifted from being 1 patrol/1 fast/1 heavy Detachment to 3 patrols with the units reshuffled a bit.
I could've already been running it that way. But I prefer to have it set up as 2 distinct "factions" - the tank company & the artillery/gunz battery. Then a patrol to catch the misc stuff. Always cost me 5 - 6 cp to do that.
I could've always saved a few cp by fielding it as a blended 3x patrol.
And I still have my WL trait & Relic.
Starting with no CP is an annoyance but not much of a real hindrance as I really only use Ramming Speed turn 2+. Sure, a re-roll on something might be nice. But not really needed.
With 3 patrols I did lose 1 total fast slot (I was using 7). So 1 Grot Bomb launcha gets replaced by a 3rd Mek Gun. Largely the same effectiveness.
Hey I wonder, did anyone try a MW spam version of AoR already?
WLT Roadkilla, DA iron gob (on a Goff bike boss? ) strat crashing through & ramming speed & Burn Em all, Kustom job drag chain & shokka Hull, spiked ram, squig mine, koptas bomb, burna bomb, boom bomb, zapp gun (on wagon). I probably miss some more, but looks like if built accordingly, AoR can also generate quite a lot of mortal wounds.
So lots of early pressure from Kommandos and Trukkboys, lots of MW potential from Bomb Squigs, Scrapjets and bigger Squigs. Characters are missiles looking to do damage while everything else nabs objectives and does actions.
XC18 wrote: Hey I wonder, did anyone try a MW spam version of AoR already?
WLT Roadkilla, DA iron gob (on a Goff bike boss? ) strat crashing through & ramming speed & Burn Em all, Kustom job drag chain & shokka Hull, spiked ram, squig mine, koptas bomb, burna bomb, boom bomb, zapp gun (on wagon). I probably miss some more, but looks like if built accordingly, AoR can also generate quite a lot of mortal wounds.
Roadkilla, crashing through and ramming speed are decent, all others are are too unreliable, situational or require too much of an investment to be worth it.
You'll just spread a ton of mortal wound everywhere, but won't actually put them where they matter.
Have the stormboyz hop out of the wagons turn 1 to get a free 3", then hop snaggas back into the empty wagons (along with the couple mega nobs I brought)
This could probably get in 30 kommandos, 29 stormboyz, Zagtruck, 1 wagon (ramming speed), and a Kill rig in turn 1.
Jidmah wrote: You should switch out one of the squiggly curses - otherwise you'll not be able to cast a second power on the off chance that both are alive after your opponent's shooting phase.
I'm also not too sure on how viable Ghaz is anymore. Dropping him and makari allowed me to add three more units and a KFF for first turn, that seems to be more value to me. Then again, he is one of the few things that can smash a knights...
I'm also not a fan of units of 3 squig riders, 5 have served me much better.
Regarding powers i have never been a huge fan of most of the beastsnagga powers outside of frazzle on killrigs but I can probably add spirit of gork if I take larger beastrider units.
Now regarding beastriders i agree with you 5 is better I just ran out of points (And models; I only own 9) and like the bomb squig spam… it was just a quick list it needs tinkering.
I beleive ghaz is still one of the top placing armies and his double Waagh Is great. Makari is also a steal at 50pts w him. He is a ton of Points though and I think he’s slsoghtly overpriced.
So, what do you think about secondaries?
I still think we have no good faction secondaries.
Good bits is simply worse than banners in the long run (if your opponent is not able to kill a couple grot units mid board, you've allreay won the game regardless). And you can't perform it with your characters like meks and minimeks.
Green tide is an even worse version of engage on all fronts.
Killing stuff with your warlord... Considering that ork warlords are throwaway units or ghaz it's not a good one vs 90% enemies.
The only semi-decent is killing stuff in mellee but it's situational at best. And risky as our units tend to be squishy and worse than stuff we usually face in mellee.
I'm not sure what's good to take now except for banners.
koooaei wrote: So, what do you think about secondaries? I still think we have no good faction secondaries.
Good bits is simply worse than banners in the long run (if your opponent is not able to kill a couple grotunits mid board, you've allreay won the game regardless). And you can't perform it with your characters like men's and minimeks.
Green tide is an even worse version of engage on all fronts.
Killing stuff with your warlord... Considering that ork earlords are throwaway units or ghaz it's not a good one vs 90% enemies.
The only semi-decdnt is killing stuff in mellee but it's situational at best. And risky as our units tend to be squishy and worse than stuff we usually face in mellee.
I'm not sure what's good to take now except for banners.
i dont agree with this assessment. I mean, i agree they arent exceptional, but they have gotten better.
Biggest and da best is a secondary i never used before because it was too difficult to get points out of it. But now, there are also easier ones to do, like it gives you VP for simply sitting on an objective, among other changes, making it much easier to do. Hell i would do this with a speed mob just to get at least 10 points for being parked on an objective, and maybe some more if i can deal a bit of damage or finish someone off near my objective. Unless you are playing against a psyker heavy faction, keeping a beastboss on squig, or even a wartrike from a speed mob, alive is possible as long as you dont actively try to get him killed. In the games ive played Speed Mobs, i only ever got my wartrike killed when i lost or i needed to throw him out the window as a blockade to defend more important stuff. So i dont think it will be difficult to get a minimum of 10 from biggest and da best with a wartrike in a speed mob. I can see myself getting 10 points from that decently often as long as im not psyker sniped. While its not the best secondary and its tricky (and certainly risky), i feel like it can still yield some points, around 10 if not more.
The Good bits is buffed to be able to get them with grots on the same turn. If you can get them to 2 secondaries turn 1 or turn 2, then thats already 5 points. And if you keep something else like some cheap boys nearby to do the rest it should be fine. Good bits objectives at WTC terrain is often behind obscurring anyway, and they give 3 VP per objective, so if you get grots on an objective turn 1, you just need to hold a single objective for the rest of the game and do bits to get all 15. I mean if they want to focus on getting to grots sitting behind obscurring, then thats their deal. You can then pummel away at his army while doing good bits with something else later. Anything that priotizes a grot is another valuable unit that isnt destroyed.
Stomp em good was decent, though not the best because we kinda have to survive. But with the changed waaagh mechanic, it will be easier for us to kill, and easier for us to survive in return. And lets face it, those that take Stomp em good, will not use the speed waaagh. So while this secondary isnt changed, its easier to pull off now i believe.
Im uncertain about the last "engage on all front" kind of secondary we have.. I mean if im already swarming the board with 30 grots trying to hold backline objectives, and doing good bits, added with a few boys here and there, maybe getting 3+ points would come naturally. Im not sure. Boys still do die fast, so i might not do that one. However, WTC terrain often has a lot of obscurring, so being hidden while doing bits while still getting VP from Greentide might be viable.
All in all, i can see myself doing Good bits, and if im not using ghaz, i can see myself potentially using Biggest and da best, if i can avoid being sniped one way or the other.
Im not here for 95 point games, im here to win. So if i can hold my enemy back while doing good bits, while has to deal with my 5++ waaagh units charging in then maybe this will be enough for us to be good again.
Honestly I struggle to justify ghaz as anything outside of a beatstick. For a third of the cost you can get a warboss for 1+ to hit and the foot centric part of the waagh. The extra 200pts can be spent on a painboy, a kff mek then more infantry for the pressure lists.
I think Ghaz is fine as long as you bring a list with decent shooting from vehicles. So 2-3 scrapjets and/or 2-3 kill rigs for example. And hopefully avoiding AoC armies.
Otherwise, for a more melee focussed list, a regular warboss is probably a more effective option.
i dont agree with this assessment. I mean, i agree they arent exceptional, but they have gotten better.
They have gotten better but are still pretty bad.
Half of them are passable on crunched boards with a lot of Los blocks, however, most people just play with medium amount of gw terrain that does nothing for your troops sitting on mid board objectives. I see no way of making 20-30 grots live through 1 turn in the open. Also, they can't be los-blocked by trucks or wagons as they can be seen from below the vehicles when enemy draws line of sight from his model's bases to your grot's bases.
Surviving on a mid board objective in the open is not an easy thing to do. And orks don't have tough warlords. So, I'd not expect to get more than 6 VP (at best). The problem is that it is focused on just 1 model and you just have to self-limit yourself from sacrificing it early on, which is not proper orky (and often ends up as a disaster when you don't kill something important early on and just loose too much).
All in all, none of this secondaries are really good or reliable. I think that general ones are just better once again. I mean banners are great now. Killing characters or vehicles is easier and doesn't require you to actually do mellee. Which is a nice tool but is too weak on it's own and pretty unreliable. And if you kill stuff with mortal wounds from impacts, it dowsn't count... I only see it work vs 4 out of 25 armies in our meta. Very situational.
I guess, it's good to get some buffs that at least allow you to consider this secondaries from time to time. But they're pretty bad overall. Still. They don't match our army strengths.
I mean the above post is just wrong..
Get the good bits- means your grots turn 1 automatically get those mission points on the same turn without your opponent having any chance to kill them.. if they die after that first turn I don’t care…
you then immediately place another squad of infantry (such as kommandos on an objective turn 1) this means by the start of your turn 2 command phase you again get more mission points. If your grots (or lootas) survive another turn then you are guaranteed victory points each turn. Get the good bits is phenominal good with very little investment (a single squad of grots).
Orks have 2 of the toughest characters to kill in ghaz/makari and mazgrod/beastboss on squig (w beastmantle and/or ard as nails but I rather take BBK with all the atks a beastboss has).
To me makari is auto take w ghaz it’s a hard to kill painboy that is fast and whose aura benefits everything including killrigs and wazboms.
Forceride wrote: I think with the waaagh changes Nobz with big choppa are looking really nice for 5 at 100pts
If squighoggs are the new meta, nobz are not far behind being goff at S9 and -2AP
For starters, the already covered thing, Goff nobz would be S9 AP-1, so against AoC they are AP0. :( I think sadly, that GW writes these rules without any input from ork players or playtesters, AoC neuters most of the ork lists, its a bit ridiculous honestly The same is true for the -1 to hit rules which are ubiquitous, our shooting units are reduced by 50% against a simple -1 to hit.
But going back to nobz, I like them and want them to be competitive but at the moment they aren't. A fun list option now though might be to run 10 of them as Trukk Nobz equipped with double choppas. 170pts gets you 60 S6 attacks, well...240 if you include the trukk. Still, not terrible, but not really competitive.
Historically, Nobz have always had the problem that they compete with too many other units which are better at their assigned tasks. Also historically, GW has for some reason demanded that Nobz always be 2x the cost of boyz when in reality they should be cheaper then that. Nobz at 15ppm would be good but not broken.
Regardless they both compete for elite slots… the Kommandos cost 20pts more have More wounds, better saves, significantly more atks and Don’t require a transport. Imho nobs are still overpriced by at least 1pt but really 2. Nobs have +1 str but you do a lot less atks which you need when everything is -1ap (except klaw/saw)
To be fair kommandos have a better save.... while in cover. In combat, and we're talking about a melee unit, they're t-shirt save dudes while nobz have 4+ save. So against other models that don't wield melee weapons with high AP nobz are definitely tougher.
I don't think nobz are overpriced. They're just useless. Being elite and with their current rules/wargear they can either be too cheap and spammable or too expensive. They need to be troops, period. Then they'd be a legit option as they are, they could even be 1 or 2 points per model more expensive actually and still be ok.
Kommandos are just flat out better. In +1 armor cover they are 3+ in cover while in CC they are 4+ so durability wise they are about as tough. But more importantly in CC against anything T5+ they are wounding on 4s if you toe cover. They also have a bomb squig for relatively cheap and the most important part, they can forward deploy which completely ignores the mobility concern of nobz.
As far as my general opinion about the new rules updates for Orkz...honestly? too much to make an informed opinion on. I need to get some games in against some of the other armies which also received nerfs/buffs. But my first impression is that orkz got a bit tougher, a bit cheaper and our secondaries got a bit easier to get which means we might have been nudged up to the 45-55% WR which is what most people want.
If Makari didnt have the Ghaz requirement for his FNP i suspect we'd be seeing him used a lot.
As it is, very little other than Ghaz actually benefits since its such a short aura.
Kommandos are just flat out better. In +1 armor cover they are 3+ in cover while in CC they are 4+ so durability wise they are about as tough. But more importantly in CC against anything T5+ they are wounding on 4s if you toe cover. They also have a bomb squig for relatively cheap and the most important part, they can forward deploy which completely ignores the mobility concern of nobz.
I know they're flat out better, I use kommados everytime and haven't fielded nobz since 8th. I just contest the claim that kommandos have better save than nobz. Most of the times if you want to throw them into action they won't be in cover, and if they aren't they're just boyz.
I ran get the good bits yesterday against a (yarrick led) astra militarum list yesterday. I had 4*10 grots. It's is catagorically an awesome secondary with an infantry list. 15 easy victory points by the top of 4. The fact if you go second you can score 5vp on the final round with any 2 core units is a great safety net.
Biggest and the best was a safe 10 but in future I'll probably take one of the two psychics (AM really relies on characters so could have been another 15.
I understand people are weary of green tides but I found it very interesting. The new engage is a safe 13 points (2 turns where you don't get 4 quarters) but there are multiple occasions to recoup missed points to get the full 15 from green tides
I ran a brigade so I could take 12 troops and I think it might have legs (used wtc style set up so a reasonable amount of terrain)
I don't think painboyz are worth it. They're now almost the same cost as a squad of 9 Ork Boyz. The 3" range of the fnp is restrictive and big gob is a bit of a waste of a CP.
I actually ran the rule book warlord trait of inspiring leader and found it very useful in the horde list. I went for multiple 10 man squads rather than any 30 man squads blast is too scary and we no longer get any attack bonus for being in large squads.
I don't think painboyz are worth it. They're now almost the same cost as a squad of 9 Ork Boyz. The 3" range of the fnp is restrictive and big gob is a bit of a waste of a CP.
The chance of a 1 damage attacking shrugging off a Boy / grot (etc) under the 5++ KFF or Waaagh goes from 33.33% to 44.44% (5++, then 6+ FNP).
I think it's worth considering, given every model saved also means less likely chance to fail morale. You want them to have to overcommit and sometimes it'll just completely whiff. It also gives you some resistance to MW which is also worth considering as it gets around our new found Waaagh buff.
i dont think painboys are bad if you are infantry heavy.
If you are taking him to protect 1-2 units only, like hes in a wagon with some nobz and presumably some chaff inside, hes probably not worth it.
I wish they'd bring it back to 5+++ or give him some reason to exist besides FNP. 6+++ just isnt that amazing unless its going on a LOT of things and/or models with a ton of wounds (which he cant affect those)
Painboyz are nice when fielding large squads. This way the 3'' range doesn't really cause problems. By running MSU it's not so easy to have both him and the squads in good position.
Agree on painboyz being bad. Our infantry is either bad or prefers msu and relies on transports to function.
Now I do like makari fnp as it works on everything. Fnp scrap jets and wagons are nice. I've also had ok-ish results with killa Kans running alongside. They don't really so much but are relatively tanky and can score or deter enemy from rushing midboard early on.
Don't get me wrong about the good bits. It's not a bad secondary but you can't take it together with banners. And banners are better. You can easilly raise banners in your dz and raise a banner mid board with any infantry including characters. And they're gonna eventually outscore those 5-10 pts you're gonna get with good bits.
They also don't require to waste more pts on grots.
Vineheart01 wrote: i dont think painboys are bad if you are infantry heavy.
If you are taking him to protect 1-2 units only, like hes in a wagon with some nobz and presumably some chaff inside, hes probably not worth it.
I wish they'd bring it back to 5+++ or give him some reason to exist besides FNP. 6+++ just isnt that amazing unless its going on a LOT of things and/or models with a ton of wounds (which he cant affect those)
Flat out, they don't want orkz having a 5+++ or a 5++ unless its temporary or comes with a downside because it skews too heavily for us. If you made the painboy have a 5+ FNP then he would earn his points back simply by babysitting a single maxed out unit of boyz. 6+ makes it less of an auto-include, the problem is that they didn't give him a corresponding points cut nor did they increase the range of his aura from 3' to at least 6. If he was 50pts and had a 6' aura of 6+FNP he might have a niche in an infantry heavy list. But at 70pts for a 6+ 3' FNP....nope. I've always liked the idea of the painboy having a pseudo Resurrection Protocol. For every 3 dead boyz a painboy will stitch together 1 boy on a 3+. Its fluffy, its funny and its not OP (in my opinion).
Banners outscoring good bits I think is a bit of a bad take.
I think Good bits can be a trivial 10+ secondary if you build for it. Keep in mind grots score it automatically end of turn.
You can literally park a truck in your d-zone and have units of grots cycle out of (to gain an 8" move) to score it, as 8" is usually enough to get from your d-zone to an objective. 3 units of grots + 1 truck to score you 9 without any other effort seems like a no brainer to me. Good bits also scores end of game, so if you have any units that don't even score it automatically, they can do so turn 5 if you go 2nd safely.
Banners is good and all but I think its going to b stupidly easy to build around good bits.
tulun wrote: Banners outscoring good bits I think is a bit of a bad take.
I think Good bits can be a trivial 10+ secondary if you build for it. Keep in mind grots score it automatically end of turn.
You can literally park a truck in your d-zone and have units of grots cycle out of (to gain an 8" move) to score it, as 8" is usually enough to get from your d-zone to an objective. 3 units of grots + 1 truck to score you 9 without any other effort seems like a no brainer to me. Good bits also scores end of game, so if you have any units that don't even score it automatically, they can do so turn 5 if you go 2nd safely.
Banners is good and all but I think its going to b stupidly easy to build around good bits.
But than they get killed and you only got 5 VP, and even that is not a given - depending on how the points are located.
And than you emidiately loose those scoring squads.
Whereas you will always be able to get 2 banners at very least. And 3 most of the time.
Well, it needs testing. But it seems fairly straightforward that banners are much better vs not overly mobile and tough armies like custodes.
SemperMortis wrote: For every 3 dead boyz a painboy will stitch together 1 boy on a 3+. Its fluffy, its funny and its not OP (in my opinion).
That's almost the same as 6+++ he allreay has. But worse cause requires the squad to survive.
Sorry I should have clarified, that is an EXTRA ability he gets rather than replacing the 6+++.
If he drops to 50pts, gets a 6' aura and the pseudo RP, I think he would be competitive.
Why not just make it: resurrect models I'm a core unit for a total of d3 wounds. That's akin to what de are getting.
It'd be a nice unit for around 80 pts. Resurrecting a meganob or up to 3 boyz can be really nice yet not broken as those units are meh. It could be a strategem upgrade or a relic.
But than they get killed and you only got 5 VP, and even that is not a given - depending on how the points are located.
And than you emidiately loose those scoring squads.
Whereas you will always be able to get 2 banners at very least. And 3 most of the time.
Well, it needs testing. But
No that's wrong.
You hide 3 grot units and use 1 a turn. The grot in the open may die the following turn, but this scores you 9. Cycle a grot squad *each turn* from behind cover, and keep them busy with the rest of your army.
If you mindlessly throw all your grot squads forward yes, they'll probably get targeted. But that's why you don't do that.
And then you can try to score with things like Bikes who are either under Waaagh or a KFF 5++. Make them choose between shooting their efficient anti tank at your wagons / kill rigs / dreads (whatever) or your bikes which are scoring 3 VPs the following turn.
Good bits is super easy. Banners I think is good but has way more counterplay for the opponent and is harder to pull off anything better than a 10. I think good bits could be a regular 10-15 secondary for Orks.
Simple answer? Because you resurrect a pair of meganobz and you've just made up your points cost entirely. Maybe make it just troops or just troops/boyz units (IE burna boyz/lootas/kommandos etc)
Ok, final tournamnet with the old rules for me today. Two victories 20:0 and 17:3 and one small loss 0:20, because I ' m a prick. It was nice.
Actualy.. I we skip Tyranids and Eldars, I was second! Not bad at all!
I gonna play Speed Mob with the new rules fro couple of month, becuase I like it and want to give it a try. This is the list I plan to play:
- I need CPs and a lot of units. So I pay for second detach and go Blood Axe.
- I switch to Nob bikers instead of single buggies and for single scrapjet units. I pay already for the extra detach, so let' s criple the enmy fire distribuiton as much and possible and have more flexibility.
- I take just the barebone bloodaxe trait and relic. I don ' t believe now, the Biggest and da Best can work well with biker boss.
I rather bring makari. Plus makari makes Gaz stronger for just 50pts. Also it has the key words ORKS GOFF, so it affects a lot of stuff. Painboy has <clan> Infantry/Biker
Sure the painboy or boss can fight, but the FNP is not worth at 70 i think. For a model who is supposed to provide support in the survival department they leave a bit to be desired.
Beardedragon wrote: Well. Makari as a FNP source only works near ghaz and when hes alive. so if ghaz is sniped, which he can be, makari dont work for FNPs.
I have never had ghaz get sniped.. if someone is focused on killing ghaz it’s usually turn 3 he dies..
i mean theory crafting is fun and all but it just doesn’t happen to have ghaz die in a single turn even turn 2 is uncommon and requires heavily focused attacks… and I usually want ghaz in combat quickly.
I agree Makari aura is small and mostly only benefits ghaz after turn 1.. but makari is useful because he not only makes ghaz a slightly better damage sponge but his fnp aura is useful for extra durability that first turn when I have several important units within 3in of him. He’s our cheapest hq at 50pts and is durable enough to be a pain..
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Also killrigs are excellent at psychic interrogation secondary… since it’s only warp charge 4 to cast, it counts as a psychic power to buff your Killrig … AND now generates a free CP every time you roll the same or over the leadership of the character you target..
2 killrigs and a backup weirdboy is likely a great way to make your goff pressure list have extra CP and make an easy 12 Victory points.
2 killrigs and a backup weirdboy is likely a great way to make your goff pressure list have extra CP and make an easy 10+ Victory points.
Doesn't that open you up to assassinate and bring it down? I am not sold on the kill rig. Specially on model which is hard to hide due to it's size? Plus the point cost of 2.
2 killrigs and a backup weirdboy is likely a great way to make your goff pressure list have extra CP and make an easy 10+ Victory points.
Doesn't that open you up to assassinate and bring it down? I am not sold on the kill rig. Specially on model which is hard to hide due to it's size? Plus the point cost of 2.
Unfortunately I don't see many ways in which we make lists that aren't vulnerable to either Assassinate or Bring It Down. We tend to lean into characters, or vehicles, or both to deal damage.
I've personally just leaned into assassinate and accepted that I will give up some VP, but they normally get enough damage in before dying that it doesn't matter.
2 killrigs and a backup weirdboy is likely a great way to make your goff pressure list have extra CP and make an easy 10+ Victory points.
Doesn't that open you up to assassinate and bring it down? I am not sold on the kill rig. Specially on model which is hard to hide due to it's size? Plus the point cost of 2.
I can’t make a list that mildly competitive that doesn’t have wagons, killrigs, buggies, Mek guns, walkerz, or deffkoptas flyers and also not having 5 characters…(not listing them all).
The idea for the list isn’t you don’t let them get any of the secondaries maxed it’s you make thier life much harder to do do it…
For instance my goff pressure list has only 5 characters, ghaz, makari(drop makari for wierdboy if you want to try psychic interrogation) , beastboss on squig and 2x killrigs… all targets that are tough to kill and you need to kill all 5 to max assassinate.
For bring it down it’s ghaz, wazbom, 2x killrig- that’s only max 10 if they all die..
Abhor the witch isn’t bad anymore as only 3 psykers means a max 9 victory points.
I mean I’m forcing my opponent to take engage, a faction secondary, and maybe a tough to complete assassinate, banners, etc… I want to force my opponent to claim mid board objectives… block
Them off with kommandos and then hit them with squigriders in the 2nd turn for a big waaagh charge.
But than they get killed and you only got 5 VP, and even that is not a given - depending on how the points are located.
And than you emidiately loose those scoring squads.
Whereas you will always be able to get 2 banners at very least. And 3 most of the time.
Well, it needs testing. But
No that's wrong.
You hide 3 grot units and use 1 a turn. The grot in the open may die the following turn, but this scores you 9. Cycle a grot squad *each turn* from behind cover, and keep them busy with the rest of your army.
If you mindlessly throw all your grot squads forward yes, they'll probably get targeted. But that's why you don't do that.
And then you can try to score with things like Bikes who are either under Waaagh or a KFF 5++. Make them choose between shooting their efficient anti tank at your wagons / kill rigs / dreads (whatever) or your bikes which are scoring 3 VPs the following turn.
Good bits is super easy. Banners I think is good but has way more counterplay for the opponent and is harder to pull off anything better than a 10. I think good bits could be a regular 10-15 secondary for Orks.
Completely agree. The grotz scurry around behind a screen of the rest of your warband. If the enemy tries to focus on that random mob of grotz it´s still a win. Like a free Grot Shields and the reason why you bring more than 1 mob. A 40 point Troop unit that the opponent need to focus down is a fantastic strategic advantage.
Beyond being a nice Secondary I think it´s very fluffy Runts looting in the middle of the battle field sounds so orky!
For the 3rd Secondary I´m still trying out Psyching Interrogation. It´s easy to protect a Weirdboy in the backline and now you get the occasional extra VP too.
Beardedragon wrote: Well. Makari as a FNP source only works near ghaz and when hes alive. so if ghaz is sniped, which he can be, makari dont work for FNPs.
I have never had ghaz get sniped.. if someone is focused on killing ghaz it’s usually turn 3 he dies.. i mean theory crafting is fun and all but it just doesn’t happen to have ghaz die in a single turn even turn 2 is uncommon and requires heavily focused attacks… and I usually want ghaz in combat quickly.
I agree Makari aura is small and mostly only benefits ghaz after turn 1.. but makari is useful because he not only makes ghaz a slightly better damage sponge but his fnp aura is useful for extra durability that first turn when I have several important units within 3in of him. He’s our cheapest hq at 50pts and is durable enough to be a pain..
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Also killrigs are excellent at psychic interrogation secondary… since it’s only warp charge 4 to cast, it counts as a psychic power to buff your Killrig … AND now generates a free CP every time you roll the same or over the leadership of the character you target..
2 killrigs and a backup weirdboy is likely a great way to make your goff pressure list have extra CP and make an easy 12 Victory points.
When i said sniped i meant by turn 2-3 as well. At least the painboy has uses after ghaz would die, makari wouldnt.
Im currently making a list of 174 models, where im using a Big Gob painboy for a 6inch FNP. we will see how that goes. along side a Big mek with KFF.
I get what you are saying however I find makari/painboy if they are utilizing thier 3in aura usually dies around the same time anyway or makari had some amazing saves..
By turn 3/4 if ghaz is dead makari/painboy isn’t going to do much to change the outcome of the game… (I wish he counted as a core Gretchin unit for get the good bits)
But most importantly I’m not wasting an elite slot on a painboy when I can take 3x kommando units…
If I drop makari it’s to take a weirdboy for psychic interrogations for easy mission points and extra CPs.
Secondaries will be get the goodbits, biggest and best, and engage on all fronts…
To be fair I think dropping makari and taking a weirdboy instead trying get the goodbits, pyschic interrogation and either assassinstion/bring it down would be easier to score plus extra CPs.
If you find that Big Gob doesn't make a significant impact you could try Mad Dok Grotsnik. He's got all the painboys abilities but for +15 points you get a much better fighter.
For bring it down it’s ghaz, wazbom, 2x killrig- that’s only max 10 if they all die..
Abhor the witch isn’t bad anymore as only 3 psykers means a max 9 victory points.
I can see your point of view. I would really would like to try out, but i would need to cut something of my list and that would be meganobz on wagon.
I am not sure how that would go, but it would be funny making a full squighog(full of snagas maybe? might be expensive) + kill rig + Gaz + Beastboss on squigosaur charge with MW sprinkles.
I can even see turn 1 KFF like you guys mentioned followed be big waaaggh providing some decent -1AP for AoC and charges.
But i don't have the models of most of my list, so i will be painting and updating my list as it goes.
So, played my bloodaxe tide yesterday and delivered a 90-65 krumpin to my DA and genestealer opponents in a tempest of war game despite getting wiped out completely except for seven boyz across three units.
Highlights:
- New Waaagh! is awesome. The army-wide 5++ reduced casualties by a lot and allowed to still have a lot of punching power in turn 3. Extra strength makes a huge difference
- Pairing it with a KFF was the right decision. Using it for defense only would have been a waste, they offensive buffs are extremely important.
- Burnas just running up the field with boyz did surprisingly well, but KMB and zzapkrumpas are a waste of points. Flamers were just generally good, cuttas are decent against AoC units.
- Nobz are still bad and drop to extremely bad when facing AoC or -1 damage. I'll continue to avoid them. Big choppas stuck out to me as especially bad, as they were worse than regular choppas against inner circle and T3 units.
- Lootas suck bad. Three units of 7+1 I used to fill out the brigade failed to do anything of relevance despite not losing a single member until turn 4. I see no reason to bring them over mek guns.
- I had a unit of 30 'orrible gitz backed with a runtherd with squighound and ran them into my opponent's deathwing castle in midfield. With +1S, +1A, 5++ and +1 to hit from Zodgrod (don't try this at home) they managed to murder his apothecary, flip the objective and annoy him so much with their -1 to hit debuff that they got clobbered by two deathwing squads, belial and a storm raven the following turn. An absolute win in my book.
- Bloodaxe Stormboyz did great during the Waaagh!, with the option to boost them to S6 my units of 10 could easily flip an objective and assassinate two characters and the stuck around for another turn thanks to having a 5++ despite being in remote places.
- Slugga Boyz were ok-ish while the Waaagh! lasted, garbage afterwards. Next time, I'm going to replace all of them with beast snaggas, as they are essentially boyz which are always in the second stage of the Waaagh! and a unit of 10 is just 10 points more than boyz with a PK.
- Putting PKs on every single boss nob was definitely worth it, especially against the AoC units.
- Shoota boyz were decent backfield action monkeys as bare bone squad for 80 points. Gretchin would not have survived in their place.
- Weirdboy didn't really add any value, neither Jabbin Fingers nor Warpath had any notable impact. Da Jump could actually have had some value due to the nature of tempest of war and because it combines well with other bloodaxe shenanigans. Going to try a wurrboy next time.
- I denied a lot of VP to my opponents by running nearly dead mobs towards the edge and place them in reserves, just to have the re-appear in safe locations, extra kunnin' made a few of those free to use.
- 'finking cap generated exactly 2 CP, straight shoota is useless compared to shiney shoota, fight detecta was a good protection against various deep-striking shooting units.
- Duk and kovva combo with the SAG was foiled by GSC snipers just not giving a damn about Look out Sir.
- Mob rule saved one ork boy!
The bad:
- I feel like there is no way to kill deathwing units with orks anymore. By the end of the game just three blade guard and one terminator in each squad were dead, plus the apothecary. I also had no tools to kill his redemptor and storm raven. Definitely need wazzboms and mek guns to handle durable marine units.
- While I was super annoyed that the GSC player had a kult that effectively gave him AoC, I feel like they are on equal footing with orks. Which isn't too shabby, I right?
In general, I'm going to switch to DG for a while, but I think the new Waaagh! really is a gamechanger for orks if used correctly. Calling it in turn 1 definitely is not the way to go unless you can reach a lot of enemy units.
Thx Jidmah for the insight's, I find it really useful, maybe you could have more in the future, when your not playing DG, like Deff Dread, squighogs kills rigs, maybe dakkajets and such?
Not sure if you have the models.
Quick Question as I am not familiar with this, how does this work?
*- I denied a lot of VP to my opponents by running nearly dead mobs towards the edge and place them in reserves, just to have the re-appear in safe locations, extra kunnin' made a few of those free to use.*
Is it a Stratagem? Can anyone do it? Is it Blood Axes only? Thanks!
My kill rig is still being printed (don't like the model, so I'm getting something unique) but I own or can borrow most ork codex kits.
As for squighogs, I play them a lot but people are deadly afraid of them and kill them at literally all costs, including overextending valuable units and giving up objectives. That's great for me, as they are awesome bullet sponges, but doesn't lend itself to great tactics.
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LeRufus wrote: Quick Question as I am not familiar with this, how does this work?
*- I denied a lot of VP to my opponents by running nearly dead mobs towards the edge and place them in reserves, just to have the re-appear in safe locations, extra kunnin' made a few of those free to use.*
Is it a Stratagem? Can anyone do it? Is it Blood Axes only? Thanks!
Yes, the bloodaxe clan stratagem lets you place an infantry unit that is within 3" of the table edge into strategic reserves. Not that useful for playing matched play missions, but in tempest of war many objectives count units destroyed.
Nice to hear the KFF worked out. Funny how that garbo strat has probably turned into an auto take from me if I go normal waaaagh.
And yeah, people clinging onto boys, even with these changes, are just being silly. Snagga is the future. Truck boys have a place, but you're paying 10 more points (after you buy a klaw in boys) to get +1 str, 6++, better access to strats (some Snagga strats are fine, just expensive...), +1 to hit vs monsters and vehicles (relevant a lot of the time), and also gain access to Kill Rigs, which might see a bit of a resurgence with the points drop and multiple turns of 5++.
koooaei wrote: Agree on painboyz being bad. Our infantry is either bad or prefers msu and relies on transports to function.
Now I do like makari fnp as it works on everything. Fnp scrap jets and wagons are nice. I've also had ok-ish results with killa Kans running alongside. They don't really so much but are relatively tanky and can score or deter enemy from rushing midboard early on.
Don't get me wrong about the good bits. It's not a bad secondary but you can't take it together with banners. And banners are better. You can easilly raise banners in your dz and raise a banner mid board with any infantry including characters. And they're gonna eventually outscore those 5-10 pts you're gonna get with good bits.
They also don't require to waste more pts on grots.
If you take grots (especially if you have them in a transport for addtional movement t1) I genuinely don't see how you are getting less that 15 VP for Get the good bits. I'm genuinely tempted by a grot herder for the additional 1" movement.
CaptainO wrote: I'm genuinely tempted by a grot herder for the additional 1" movement.
That´d be the day when we saw Runtherds back in play
In other notes. Anyone noticed the subtle wording on Da Biggest that the destroyed by attack clause doesn´t say melee? Meaning the WL can actually shoot stuff for points too.
im assuming that Nobz with big choppas and normal choppers are still bad, but big choppas DO hit with str 8 now with the new waaagh if you run them as trukk boyz.
So hitting on 3s, and wounding on 2s against most space marine variants.
Hitting on 3s, wound on 2s and 0AP. Which means that against your average space marine a nob completely whiffs 44% of the time despite +1 A, +1S.
Against a plague marine, bikes or gravis model 53% of the time.
Against any 2+ model 68% of the time.
Against DG terminators your whiff 74% of the time, and the pinacle are deathwing terminators where you just have a ~20% chance to damage them at all.
Which pretty much matches my experience with them. AoC has neutered the big choppa, if you expect to face space marine, don't waste points on them. Get a PK or stick with choppas.
Yeah, big choppa as a weapon it is currently is DoA. Needs to be AP-2 minimum and either cheaper or borderline free to ever compete against the PK or Killsaw.
tulun wrote: Banners outscoring good bits I think is a bit of a bad take.
I think Good bits can be a trivial 10+ secondary if you build for it. Keep in mind grots score it automatically end of turn.
You can literally park a truck in your d-zone and have units of grots cycle out of (to gain an 8" move) to score it, as 8" is usually enough to get from your d-zone to an objective. 3 units of grots + 1 truck to score you 9 without any other effort seems like a no brainer to me. Good bits also scores end of game, so if you have any units that don't even score it automatically, they can do so turn 5 if you go 2nd safely.
Banners is good and all but I think its going to b stupidly easy to build around good bits.
Agreed. The speed and ease with which you can score close to 15Vp with some tailoring makes me think GTGB is quality. I noticed that in Mission 33 I wasn't able to disembark the grots from a battlewagon and reach the central objective (middle of the battlefield so more than 8" away from the deployment zone which has made me investigate the grot herder for that ever so important +1" movement)
I’d like to try a list made for get the good bits, psychic interrogations and assasinate/bring it down..
That limits my opponents missions..
This list only gives out a
Max 10 for bring it down
Max 9 for abhor the witch
Max 12 for assassinate
Max 12 no prisoners if you kill everything…
And limit characters for completing Psychic interrogations.
This forces my opponent to accept assasinate as max 12 vp…
Go for psychic interrogations if they can but keep my characters alive so they can score VP Or attempt missions like raise banners or engage (or faction specific) where they need to compete with my army for mid table board control.
CaptainO wrote: I'm genuinely tempted by a grot herder for the additional 1" movement.
That´d be the day when we saw Runtherds back in play
In other notes. Anyone noticed the subtle wording on Da Biggest that the destroyed by attack clause doesn´t say melee? Meaning the WL can actually shoot stuff for points too.
You'll have to wipe that unit out so its only "usefull" if you've chipped all but 1 or 2 wounds left on a model. Ghaz has...ok shooting. Best of the warbosses.
Jidmah wrote: Hitting on 3s, wound on 2s and 0AP. Which means that against your average space marine a nob completely whiffs 44% of the time despite +1 A, +1S. Against a plague marine, bikes or gravis model 53% of the time. Against any 2+ model 68% of the time. Against DG terminators your whiff 74% of the time, and the pinacle are deathwing terminators where you just have a ~20% chance to damage them at all.
Which pretty much matches my experience with them. AoC has neutered the big choppa, if you expect to face space marine, don't waste points on them. Get a PK or stick with choppas.
my point was it was better than normal choppers, not that it was excellent as whole. You get 40 big choppa hits (hits on 3s, wound on 2s, 2 dmg) and 10 choppa hits (hits on 3s, wound on 3s) from 10 nobz with.. well big choppas.
Or 60 choppa hits (hits on 3s, wound on 3s, 1 damage) with dual choppers from nobs.
I would, in this case, probably go for the big choppa rather than the double choppas, since big choppas will now be str 8 as trukk boyz on a waaagh. They are also more flexible as being str 8 means you can reliably deal some damage to vehicles who are toughness 8 or 7.
Save those points in Big Choppas and take some with Klaw / Choppa, and the rest double choppa.
I bet those nobs perform better. (say, 2 Klaw / choppa, and 3 double choppa nobs)
That's the real problem. BC just aren't strong enough over a Choppa / choppa, and just taking a couple Klaws instead will overcome the hump they run into.
Every time i have ran Nobz i have never ran pure paid weapons. Its usually 6 bigchoppas 4 dualchoppas, because odds are 4 of them will die very quickly at minimum anyway.
Thats only 30 more points to upgrade to PKs which will kill marines. The only reason i used Bigchoppas before was because i simply didnt need it, but now bigchoppas are just pointless.
And of course, upping them to 2ap will be met with "You have a powa stabba for that" arguments....despite the fact that Powastabbas have literally never made sense for their cost.
gungo wrote: I’d like to try a list made for get the good bits, psychic interrogations and assasinate/bring it down..
That limits my opponents missions..
This list only gives out a
Max 10 for bring it down
Max 9 for abhor the witch
Max 12 for assassinate
Max 12 no prisoners if you kill everything…
And limit characters for completing Psychic interrogations.
This forces my opponent to accept assasinate as max 12 vp…
Go for psychic interrogations if they can but keep my characters alive so they can score VP Or attempt missions like raise banners or engage (or faction specific) where they need to compete with my army for mid table board control.
You can basically get three big Choppa nobz for the same price as two dual Choppa nobz and a PK/killsaw nob.
Without the +1 strength, the PK/killsaw and dual choppas against MEQ are roughly equivalent in terms of raw wound output not counting allocation.
With the +1 strength, the three big choppas are significantly better.
So it's a matter of whether you use Goff or if you favor the hitting power during WAAAGH, I reckon.
Of course it's rather messy as the choppas deal a flurry of single damage attacks that I feel are actually inefficient when combined with 2 damage attacks against MEQs. The offhand choppas are unlikely to cause a single wound which would probably be wasted anyways.
Honestly I don't really think it matters as much as people seem to think it does.
tulun wrote: Save those points in Big Choppas and take some with Klaw / Choppa, and the rest double choppa.
I bet those nobs perform better. (say, 2 Klaw / choppa, and 3 double choppa nobs)
That's the real problem. BC just aren't strong enough over a Choppa / choppa, and just taking a couple Klaws instead will overcome the hump they run into.
If you want a squad with PKs just take meganobz instead. There's only a 5 points of difference between a meganob and nob with powerklaw but the former is much better (+1W and +2sv) and can also buff his damage through the Hit Them Harder stratagem.
There's really no point in taking a unit of nobz with power klaws while big choppas in a meta that isn't dominated by marines might have a small niche. 5 nobz with big choppas are 50 points cheaper than 5 meganobz but only 5 points cheaper than 3 meganobz, which have -1W in total but a better save to compensate that. And 20 attacks with big choppas might have some different role compared to 12 power klaws attacks. But personally I woulnd't take nobz at all at the moment, I consider them among the most useless units in the codex.
gungo wrote: I’d like to try a list made for get the good bits, psychic interrogations and assasinate/bring it down..
That limits my opponents missions..
This list only gives out a
Max 10 for bring it down
Max 9 for abhor the witch
Max 12 for assassinate
Max 12 no prisoners if you kill everything…
And limit characters for completing Psychic interrogations.
This forces my opponent to accept assasinate as max 12 vp…
Go for psychic interrogations if they can but keep my characters alive so they can score VP Or attempt missions like raise banners or engage (or faction specific) where they need to compete with my army for mid table board control.
Interesting list. You actually give up 13 for Assassinate (+1 for warlord) and you give up 13 (+2 if they kill over 100 wounds) for no prisoners too.
You’re right still to get those 13 they need to table either characters or most infantry/cavalry… with gitbones and dajump you can play keep away if they take assassinate, make him the warlord to protect more vp…
I’m hoping psychic interrogations is able to generate at least 12 vp and 2cp. And I’m hoping Get the good bits maxs out and depending on my opponent I leave open the choice of bring it down, assassinate, or go for engage. Gives the list flexibility and limits your opponent.
gungo wrote: I’d like to try a list made for get the good bits, psychic interrogations and assasinate/bring it down..
That limits my opponents missions..
This list only gives out a
Max 10 for bring it down
Max 9 for abhor the witch
Max 12 for assassinate
Max 12 no prisoners if you kill everything…
And limit characters for completing Psychic interrogations.
This forces my opponent to accept assasinate as max 12 vp…
Go for psychic interrogations if they can but keep my characters alive so they can score VP Or attempt missions like raise banners or engage (or faction specific) where they need to compete with my army for mid table board control.
Interesting list. You actually give up 13 for Assassinate (+1 for warlord) and you give up 13 (+2 if they kill over 100 wounds) for no prisoners too.
You’re right still to get those 13 they need to table either characters or most infantry/cavalry… with gitbones and dajump you can play keep away if they take assassinate, make him the warlord to protect more vp…
I’m hoping psychic interrogations is able to generate at least 12 vp and 2cp. And I’m hoping Get the good bits maxs out and depending on my opponent I leave open the choice of bring it down, assassinate, or go for engage. Gives the list flexibility and limits your opponent.
Be aware that you can no longer da jump characters only core (so you can da jump squigs and warbikers)
Can anyone confirm how Ghaz would work if he was a supreme command detachment for another clan. (so blood axes for example) does he get the goff exploding 6s and the blood axes get the cover outside x inches + fall back and shoot/charge or do I only get one? Can I give some of the octarius warlord traits to my other hqs or am I stuck with just the goff one and the generic?
Vineheart01 wrote: Every time i have ran Nobz i have never ran pure paid weapons. Its usually 6 bigchoppas 4 dualchoppas, because odds are 4 of them will die very quickly at minimum anyway.
Thats only 30 more points to upgrade to PKs which will kill marines. The only reason i used Bigchoppas before was because i simply didnt need it, but now bigchoppas are just pointless.
And of course, upping them to 2ap will be met with "You have a powa stabba for that" arguments....despite the fact that Powastabbas have literally never made sense for their cost.
tulun wrote: Save those points in Big Choppas and take some with Klaw / Choppa, and the rest double choppa.
I bet those nobs perform better. (say, 2 Klaw / choppa, and 3 double choppa nobs)
That's the real problem. BC just aren't strong enough over a Choppa / choppa, and just taking a couple Klaws instead will overcome the hump they run into.
i agree thats a way of running them. And maybe i should do that. Mix in some double choppa nobz with big choppa ones. I think its worth trying.
But im not gonna run powerklaw Nobz for 25 points a piece, when i can just run mega nobz at 30 points a piece, with a 2+ better save, and +1 more wound.
CaptainO wrote: I'm genuinely tempted by a grot herder for the additional 1" movement.
That´d be the day when we saw Runtherds back in play
In other notes. Anyone noticed the subtle wording on Da Biggest that the destroyed by attack clause doesn´t say melee? Meaning the WL can actually shoot stuff for points too.
You'll have to wipe that unit out so its only "usefull" if you've chipped all but 1 or 2 wounds left on a model. Ghaz has...ok shooting. Best of the warbosses.
Yup noticed. Just wanted to make a note of it as it can make sense when deciding order of shooting.
It makes a BigMek Tellyporta WL an interesting proposition too. With careful positioning he can hang back a tad, taking pot shots finishing stragglers and scratching heroes/monsters/vehicles in melee. Possible 4-5 VP/turn for that risk seems reasonable. In theory at least.
CaptainO wrote: Can anyone confirm how Ghaz would work if he was a supreme command detachment for another clan. (so blood axes for example) does he get the goff exploding 6s and the blood axes get the cover outside x inches + fall back and shoot/charge or do I only get one? Can I give some of the octarius warlord traits to my other hqs or am I stuck with just the goff one and the generic?
Correct. If every model of a detachment are from the same clan, it becomes a Clan Detachment and gives access to Clan Kultur.
In your example, Ghaz would get the Goff exploding 6s, and models in the Blood Axe detachment get the BA cover.
Yes, the characters in the BA detachment can have BA warlord traits (through the strat BigBoss, because the strat specifies that the character is regarded as the warlord).
On the other hand, you cannot give them BA relics (because the warlord, Ghaz, is not from BA clan) , nor the Goff relic (because they are BA characters)
While unpacking my ladz just now, I realized I forgot one important player I brought - Mad Dok Grotznik.
Since he is a specialist git I could just drop him into my bloodaxe list and for just 15 points essentially upgraded the rather weak painboy to allow him to hit like a warboss. There are close to no stratagems that can affect a painboy in a meaningful way, so you really don't lose anything. His 5+ FNP frustrated the GSC player to no end, as his snipers failed to kill him turn after turn, just to see him stitch together himself again. A regular pain boy would have been dead T1.
His FNP helped my nobs a bit to tank terminator PF attacks and he saved some burnas. Combined with the pile of GSC bikes he killed (3+ PK hits despite their -1 to hit) he definitely made back his points, which a pain boy in his place couldn't have done.
CaptainO wrote: Can anyone confirm how Ghaz would work if he was a supreme command detachment for another clan. (so blood axes for example) does he get the goff exploding 6s and the blood axes get the cover outside x inches + fall back and shoot/charge or do I only get one? Can I give some of the octarius warlord traits to my other hqs or am I stuck with just the goff one and the generic?
Correct. If every model of a detachment are from the same clan, it becomes a Clan Detachment and gives access to Clan Kultur.
In your example, Ghaz would get the Goff exploding 6s, and models in the Blood Axe detachment get the BA cover.
Yes, the characters in the BA detachment can have BA warlord traits (through the strat BigBoss, because the strat specifies that the character is regarded as the warlord).
On the other hand, you cannot give them BA relics (because the warlord, Ghaz, is not from BA clan) , nor the Goff relic (because they are BA characters)
Due to the wording in the supplement, you also need a Bloodaxe Warlord to access the WL traits there at all. If you run Thrakka, you only get the stratagems from the supplement and nothing else - which is a shame, because I have found extra kunnin' to be extremely valuable.
For the regular clan traits (including I've got a plan ladz!), you would be correct.
Ah you're right about the BAWLT from Octarius, what a shame :(.
I plan to try mad dok, his ability to fall back and charge sync well with Blood axes. And since his healing is not clan-limited, why not.
5 Killa Kans with Skorchas are 200 points. Between Waaagh and Scrag Em they get 25 attacks at S9, AP-3, D3, hitting on 4s and 5d6 Skorcha shots to help clear chaff in and out of melee. They also have 25 wounds at T5, 3+ save, with Ramshackle and a 5++/6++ under the Waaagh, so they're reasonably beefy.
Kanz kind of fill the same niche as MANz do, so I'll compare the two units.
5 Goff Meganobz with Kombi-Skorchas are also 200 points. Under a Waaagh, on the charge they get 20 attacks at S14, AP-3, D2, also hitting on 4s, and with the same amount of Skorcha shots but at range only. The Klaw damage can be bumped to D3 with Hit Em Harder. They have 15 wounds at T5, 2+ save and a 5++/6++ in Waaagh turns.
S14 is obviously a big boon for the MANz, but S9 will do the job most of the time, and crucially they get more attacks while they keep their numbers up, and they come with D3 as standard. They also get to fire their Skorchas in combat, so there's lots of chaff clearing and chip damage potential. MANz are also slower than Kanz, but have an extra pip of LD.
With Ramming Speed, Kanz get a 3d6" charge and some additional wounds. This makes the charge slightly more reliable than a rerollable 2d6". I'll say that the cost of Ramming Speed is offset by the fact you're likely spending the same CP on Hit Em Harder for the MANz.
If you dump the Kanz up the board with Tellyport, you basically guarantee the charge and they will probably mulch whatever they hit.
I think that Kanz might be a viable choice to replace MANz as a hard hitting bully unit. Get onto an objective and kill whatevers on it, then sit there and fend the opponent off. Less and less of our lists are using HS slots, and Kanz leaves more room for Kommandos. They also replace the points cost of a transport vehicle, and only replace it with CP cost if you want to Tellyport them. Once again, I'll ignore the Ramming Speed/Hit Em Harder CP tax as a point of conparison as you're basically guaranteed to be using them.
There are quite a few reasons why Meganobz are much more reliable.
Ramming Speed costs two CPs, Hit Them Harder just one. Meganobz are elites so there might less issues in finding spared slots than Killa Kanz. Killa Kanz are vehicles which means they bleed VPs through Bring It Down. If a Killa Kan dies there's chance it explodes, damaging another Kan as well. Meganobz have better Ld. Meganobz can take transports or get Da Jumped to get in melee faster while Kanz have to pay CPs to be tellyported. Kanz lose one attack after suffering some casualties. Lastly, there are a couple of ways to give Meganobz objective secured (Deathskulls grant it for free or Freeboters by paying their 1CP stratagem).
The only advantage Kanz have over Meganobz is that they gain the AP bonus in their shooting phase during the Waaagh if Ghaz is the Warlord.
I'm also not a fan of upgrading the Meganobz, I'd keep them as cheap as possible saving points for a transport instead.
Generally speaking I think Kanz are not bad but with the new CP system they're quite hard to include in a list. Two detachments cost too many CPs, with a single battallion it's hard to find room for them, let alone multiple squads, and with a brigade there's already too many points invested in tax units to bring Kanz as well. At this point for a similar role I prefer taking a couple of barebones dreads if I have a free HS slot instead.
I don 't believe on effectivity of the list “make a blob of melee masters and drop them and charge”. Simply because it, s super easy to screen them. Sometimes people play such think with deathiwing terminators or something… the easies matches.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And with 12” range of skorchas you can be pretty much in the position the only awailable target for shooting will be the unit you want charge…
There is another risk to killakanz dropping in like that vs meganobz - base size Killakanz are on considerably larger bases, and unfortunately reinforcements arent a mystery (a concept i have been rattling around if it would be a good idea or not) so your opponent knows theres a relatively large footprint unit that needs to be blocked. Odds are, they wont hit anything important. 200pts for 5 models isnt that bad of a risk though, i used to do something similar with Piranhas (granted, back in the AV days). They were literally there to be in the way and if they got ignored they usually did enough damage anyway
Oh, and lets be honest, what are the kanz going to hit in melee they didnt either butcher or get butchered by that will let them be stuck in combat to fire their skorchas next turn?
Something did cross my mind though. Stomp 'em Good lets you score when any ORKS unit kills things in melee, but ignores any losses for GRETCHIN units. That means any attempt to screen this out can still be scoring you VP.
TedNugent wrote:
I am under the impression you've always had to multiply before additive modifiers./quote]
You're correct, and this is another example of why I shouldn't post immediately after night shifts
Tomsug wrote:
And with 12” range of skorchas you can be pretty much in the position the only awailable target for shooting will be the unit you want charge…
For MANz, yeah. But for Kanz you just fire them while in melee for extra damage. And it also gives both units something effective if you decide to overwatch with them.
TedNugent wrote: What about dreads? Dual or even triple skorcha dreads are still a thing.
I was actually giving a second look at dreads. Are kans better than dreads now? I remember people throwing them in the bin when they lost clan access.
I have had decent result in fielding a couple of full melee dreads. Three is maybe too many points invested in a sub optimal unit and one is probably a waste of an heavy support slot, I found in two models the sweet spot for them. Maybe one with the extra movement kustom job could be nice as well.
Either goffs or big krumpaz if the army is from another klan, both should provide 6 hits in combat. They're not bad for hunting MEQs, TEQs or vehicles that want to get forward, and they can split after deployment giving the ork player extra flexibility in how to use them.
I'd go full melee since it's the cheapest loadout (along with big shootas) and since I'm not a fan of versatile units, unless they come stock with mixed loadout like scrapjets or are really good. With bikes, buggies, dakkajet and eventually even choppas I never needed more anti infantry options so I'd leave to other units the role of clearing chaff. It's the same reason why I always spare points on the meganobz and avoid kombi skorchas on them.
Hum. My experience with kanz is that they actually mesh quite well with infantry lists as they don't stick out like a sore thumb anymore. Their main advantage over MANz is being faster and having some shooting worth anything, if you need some extra rokkits, this is where you get them. They can be quite strong in melee if they get to fight first, but they struggle against horde units or when affected by -1 to hit. If something that can actually lay down a beating charges them (dreads, nid monsters, daemon princes, war dogs, melee TEQ, you get the idea), they'll just disappear.
Their cheap skorchas are nice when you want to keep them cheap as meatshields for infantry units (kan wall baby!), but not as an offensive strategy - just like the dakkajet, S5 AP-1 isn't solving any of our problems.
As for kanz vs dreads. IMO that depens solely on the list. Dreads die much easier when focuses but fight better and have better guns (KMB). If there are other vehicles in your list that would get priotized over your walkers, use dreads. If not, use kanz. If you are using a speed waaagh!, dreads are better as well because KMB can advance and shoot without penalties.
Blackie wrote: There are quite a few reasons why Meganobz are much more reliable.
Ramming Speed costs two CPs, Hit Them Harder just one. Meganobz are elites so there might less issues in finding spared slots than Killa Kanz. Killa Kanz are vehicles which means they bleed VPs through Bring It Down. If a Killa Kan dies there's chance it explodes, damaging another Kan as well. Meganobz have better Ld. Meganobz can take transports or get Da Jumped to get in melee faster while Kanz have to pay CPs to be tellyported. Kanz lose one attack after suffering some casualties. Lastly, there are a couple of ways to give Meganobz objective secured (Deathskulls grant it for free or Freeboters by paying their 1CP stratagem).
The only advantage Kanz have over Meganobz is that they gain the AP bonus in their shooting phase during the Waaagh if Ghaz is the Warlord.
I'm also not a fan of upgrading the Meganobz, I'd keep them as cheap as possible saving points for a transport instead.
Generally speaking I think Kanz are not bad but with the new CP system they're quite hard to include in a list. Two detachments cost too many CPs, with a single battallion it's hard to find room for them, let alone multiple squads, and with a brigade there's already too many points invested in tax units to bring Kanz as well. At this point for a similar role I prefer taking a couple of barebones dreads if I have a free HS slot instead.
Had my first new Data Slate, new CA battle yesterday. I brought a mixed bag of stuff vs Mephrit Necrons.
Deffskulls
MAWL w Cybork Body
Weirdboy
Big Mek w KFF 2 x 12 Choppas Boyz
10 Shootaz
2 x 10 Grotz
4 Manz w Saw
4 Manz w Rokkits/Klaws
10 Kommandos w Bomb Squig
5 Kommandos
2 x 5 Tankbustas w dual Bomb squigs
2 Scrapjets
BW w Deffrolla
KMK Mek Gun
Trukk
Wazbom
Secondaries: Psychic Int, Da Biggest, Good Bitz
------------------------
The plan was triangle play (take 2 mid board objectives and home. Stay there and score) where the WL walks up to an objective and surround's himself with melee lads and the BW whilst the Weirdboy is screened in the second line. I also copied Tuluns excellent idea of Grotz slingshotting through the Trukk onto objectives. 'bustas and Buggies act as reserve and reaction force.
Wazbom acted as the usual distraction allowing me to control 2 mid board objectives for a load of VP. Necrons are boosted, but they fold against new Waaagh! melee and by turn 3 they had fallen back to their deploy except a roaming Night Bringer (singed by Squig Bombs and Rokkits). It was clear that I was to much ahead on points and we ended the match. He picked Treasures, Ancient and Purge which was hard with me swarming all over 2 mid board objectives. As he had to jump between different objectives to do his scoring actions while I could just keep at it by mine he was at the backfoot from start.
Kommandos felt redundant when you don´t care about going over the midline and you can use the Trukk slingshot. They were mostly there for t1 Bitz which didn´t happen. Maybe some sort of Dreads would´ve added more value and helped with the screening.
In general it felt great to have such a coherent scoring plan. I didn´t have to sacrifice units nor spread out all over the board. Looking forward to refining the strategy.
Tomsug wrote: I don 't believe on effectivity of the list “make a blob of melee masters and drop them and charge”. Simply because it, s super easy to screen them. Sometimes people play such think with deathiwing terminators or something… the easies matches.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And with 12” range of skorchas you can be pretty much in the position the only awailable target for shooting will be the unit you want charge…
i agree. because of their large bases, if they go for scorchas, odds are the front models can maybe scorch something else but their charging target, but the ones standing behind can usually only hit the ones you want to charge. And you cant choose not to fire your weapons once you activate a unit to shoot i believe, so if you want to fire, some of those shots have to go in to your charge target.
Art of war had an interesting idea. They said speed waaagh is back with ghaz and kff big Mek. Providing multiple turns of army wide 5++.
I like the idea of speed waggh freebooter shooty list option with the extra -1ap on durable buggies again.
Unfortunately I’ve been playing with list builds in battle scribe and I can’t get this list to work. The issue mainly stems from lack of fast atk slots, lack of cp, and the fact squigbuggies suck. Plus secondaries mainly suited for infantry. It feels like the list also lacks enough firepower. Maybe if kustom jobs get reduced or become free I can get a varient to work with double detachments and ghaz. Anyone have any luck designing a decent speed waggh list.
gungo wrote: Art of war had an interesting idea. They said speed waaagh is back with ghaz and kff big Mek. Providing multiple turns of army wide 5++.
I like the idea of speed waggh freebooter shooty list option with the extra -1ap on durable buggies again.
Unfortunately I’ve been playing with list builds in battle scribe and I can’t get this list to work. The issue mainly stems from lack of fast atk slots, lack of cp, and the fact squigbuggies suck. Plus secondaries mainly suited for infantry. It feels like the list also lacks enough firepower. Maybe if kustom jobs get reduced or become free I can get a varient to work with double detachments and ghaz. Anyone have any luck designing a decent speed waggh list.
This is an intereting idea I playing with too.
What is important to say:
- scrapjets are the only buggies that really works well. The rest is mediocre.
- however - speedwaagh is not just buggies. There are warbikers, koptas, wagons and trukks, big trakk and Kannonwagon too. And jets of course.
- it is all about the scoring and missions.
Regarding skorchas - didn't burnas go up in value compared to them due to AoC?
I recall that the math was pretty comparable before, now that they ignore AP1 it would seem to favor burnas.
Is putting a unit in a trukk a stupid idea?
Then again, nothing really seems very efficient any more. I don't know, at least they autohit and don't care about AP ignore. So they ignore hit modifiers, don't care about transhuman. That seems like the three bugbears that usually nullify Ork shooting.
Same with the boom blasta.
They didn't get any better, sure, but it seems like everything else kinda got worse.
gungo wrote: Art of war had an interesting idea. They said speed waaagh is back with ghaz and kff big Mek. Providing multiple turns of army wide 5++.
I like the idea of speed waggh freebooter shooty list option with the extra -1ap on durable buggies again.
Unfortunately I’ve been playing with list builds in battle scribe and I can’t get this list to work. The issue mainly stems from lack of fast atk slots, lack of cp, and the fact squigbuggies suck. Plus secondaries mainly suited for infantry. It feels like the list also lacks enough firepower. Maybe if kustom jobs get reduced or become free I can get a varient to work with double detachments and ghaz. Anyone have any luck designing a decent speed waggh list.
This is an intereting idea I playing with too.
What is important to say:
- scrapjets are the only buggies that really works well. The rest is mediocre.
- however - speedwaagh is not just buggies. There are warbikers, koptas, wagons and trukks, big trakk and Kannonwagon too. And jets of course.
- it is all about the scoring and missions.
The clan is however the question. FB +1 to hit is a trap in the age of new Knights codexes imho… but who knows… I have no conclusion jet.
Unless you want goff klaw makari is useless except for ghaz…
I really want to see the reliability of freebooter shooting to work again.
I mean wazboms are amazing w freebooter and speedwaagh running. It’s that’s crucial ap-3+ and bs 3/4+ shooting that makes this list work… but its really hard to get it all to work and still compete on secondaries. I mean maybe lootas will work in this list with +1 bs and -1ap w extra shot. But str7 ap-2 bs 4+ isn’t amazing when they need to get the good bits too.
gungo wrote: Art of war had an interesting idea. They said speed waaagh is back with ghaz and kff big Mek. Providing multiple turns of army wide 5++.
I like the idea of speed waggh freebooter shooty list option with the extra -1ap on durable buggies again.
Unfortunately I’ve been playing with list builds in battle scribe and I can’t get this list to work. The issue mainly stems from lack of fast atk slots, lack of cp, and the fact squigbuggies suck. Plus secondaries mainly suited for infantry. It feels like the list also lacks enough firepower. Maybe if kustom jobs get reduced or become free I can get a varient to work with double detachments and ghaz. Anyone have any luck designing a decent speed waggh list.
This is an intereting idea I playing with too. What is important to say:
- scrapjets are the only buggies that really works well. The rest is mediocre. - however - speedwaagh is not just buggies. There are warbikers, koptas, wagons and trukks, big trakk and Kannonwagon too. And jets of course. - it is all about the scoring and missions.
The clan is however the question. FB +1 to hit is a trap in the age of new Knights codexes imho… but who knows… I have no conclusion jet.
Unless you want goff klaw makari is useless except for ghaz… I really want to see the reliability of freebooter shooting to work again. I mean wazboms are amazing w freebooter and speedwaagh running. It’s that’s crucial ap-3+ and bs 3/4+ shooting that makes this list work… but its really hard to get it all to work and still compete on secondaries. I mean maybe lootas will work in this list with +1 bs and -1ap w extra shot. But str7 ap-2 bs 4+ isn’t amazing when they need to get the good bits too.
Lootas wouldnt get -1 extra AP. Speed waaagh AP isnt transfered to transported units. they would hit better though thats true.
Personally, every time ive used freebootas ive always had at least 1 grot mega tank with either Scorchas, rokkits or KMBs. last i used the scorcha that was before AOC so.. im unsure if ill whip that out again, but at least the rokkits work well.
Im still unsure how the damage of KMB to myself works, given it deals 1 wound to me on a roll of 1. Someone once said to me that you can only take 1 damage from each gun, making it painfully slow to roll, others say its every hit roll of 1 that deals damage to me, making it faster to roll all the KMBs at once.
To be honest i dont read it as me being able to only take 1 damage per gun but thats just me.
All in all, the confusion made me go over to rokkits, and Rokkit Grot mega tanks are still good damage, but low survivability. If one can keep them safe with threat saturation they deal good damage. my first GT was a speed waaagh with grot mega tanks and at the time, 3 planes. My Grot mega tanks absolutely tore up drukhari players and others, but my lack of experience got the better end of me in the end.
Scactha wrote: Had my first new Data Slate, new CA battle yesterday. I brought a mixed bag of stuff vs Mephrit Necrons.
Deffskulls
MAWL w Cybork Body
Weirdboy
Big Mek w KFF 2 x 12 Choppas Boyz
10 Shootaz
2 x 10 Grotz
4 Manz w Saw
4 Manz w Rokkits/Klaws
10 Kommandos w Bomb Squig
5 Kommandos
2 x 5 Tankbustas w dual Bomb squigs
2 Scrapjets
BW w Deffrolla
KMK Mek Gun
Trukk
Wazbom
Secondaries: Psychic Int, Da Biggest, Good Bitz
------------------------
The plan was triangle play (take 2 mid board objectives and home. Stay there and score) where the WL walks up to an objective and surround's himself with melee lads and the BW whilst the Weirdboy is screened in the second line. I also copied Tuluns excellent idea of Grotz slingshotting through the Trukk onto objectives. 'bustas and Buggies act as reserve and reaction force.
Wazbom acted as the usual distraction allowing me to control 2 mid board objectives for a load of VP. Necrons are boosted, but they fold against new Waaagh! melee and by turn 3 they had fallen back to their deploy except a roaming Night Bringer (singed by Squig Bombs and Rokkits). It was clear that I was to much ahead on points and we ended the match. He picked Treasures, Ancient and Purge which was hard with me swarming all over 2 mid board objectives. As he had to jump between different objectives to do his scoring actions while I could just keep at it by mine he was at the backfoot from start.
Kommandos felt redundant when you don´t care about going over the midline and you can use the Trukk slingshot. They were mostly there for t1 Bitz which didn´t happen. Maybe some sort of Dreads would´ve added more value and helped with the screening.
In general it felt great to have such a coherent scoring plan. I didn´t have to sacrifice units nor spread out all over the board. Looking forward to refining the strategy.
Hey that's funny, I just played Necrons too. Routed him with my Goffs. I got the mission where you can't forward deploy so Good bits was a bit sketch, but I ended up basically tabling him by turn 3 so I likely would have maxed it out. Da Biggest was *very* good on my Tanky squig boss.
List was - Bat / patrol
Beastboss on Squig (warlord, mantle, -1 to wound wlt)
Boss Zagstruck
Weirdboy (warpath, fists of gork)
MAKFF Mek, relic shoota (wouldn't take this again, too short ranged for my liking)
20 snagga boys
20 grots, both 'orrible gits
6 TB, bomb squig
2 individual Mega Tracks
5 Hogs, 1 bomb squig
1 Kannonwagon
2 individual mek guns
1 Truck
19 Stormboyz, 2 Klaws
1 Battlewagon w/ Rolla
1 Kill Rig (frazzle + squigly).
Wasn't super impressed with the weirdboy and MAKFF mek -- I think I'd probably trim off the weirdboy unless I took ghaz. It's so hard to keep him in position to cast powers on something like Dawn of War deployment. I think I'd just downgrade my MAKFF to a regular one, save the 30 points. He's just there for the reactive 5++ anyway.
Necrons really struggle with anti tank even now, and his twin menhirs and 2 HD was not enough to chunk through my armour. The 5++ turn 1 saved my Kill rig, 100% worth it.
I still dislike going 2nd (which I did here) -- it feels like you have a gap in your 5++ invul coverage. You don't wanna Waaaagh *just* for the 5++, you wanna make sure you're connecting multiple charges on that turn which is not guaranteed if they don't feed you units if they go first. I feel like in bad matchups Orks might struggle when they don't go first so you to only get shot once, and you'll have 5++ in the first 2 shooting phases.
The list felt good overall but I think I needed more throw away units. He was cagey and if I had had more grots to throw away to get the mission secondary, or just for screens, I think it would improve the list overall. The savings from dropping the weirdboy + KFF mek could allow me to take another 2 grot squads, or some kommandos (which I was lacking here).
I still dislike going 2nd (which I did here) -- it feels like you have a gap in your 5++ invul coverage. You don't wanna Waaaagh *just* for the 5++, you wanna make sure you're connecting multiple charges on that turn which is not guaranteed if they don't feed you units if they go first. I feel like in bad matchups Orks might struggle when they don't go first so you to only get shot once, and you'll have 5++ in the first 2 shooting phases.
Have you consider the warlord trait for extra 3 inch on auras? Not sure it works but that's 12 on the stratagem if it works
I still dislike going 2nd (which I did here) -- it feels like you have a gap in your 5++ invul coverage. You don't wanna Waaaagh *just* for the 5++, you wanna make sure you're connecting multiple charges on that turn which is not guaranteed if they don't feed you units if they go first. I feel like in bad matchups Orks might struggle when they don't go first so you to only get shot once, and you'll have 5++ in the first 2 shooting phases.
Have you consider the warlord trait for extra 3 inch on auras? Not sure it works but that's 12 on the stratagem if it works
It doesn't work. KFF specifically mentions it cannot be extended unless it's explicitly said so (IE: by the KFF strat).
What I mean by gap is that I reactively used the 5++ KFF in his first shooting phase, but I didn't call waaagh on the bottom of my turn. It meant that during the top of the 2nd turn I had a gap in my invuls which is awkward.
I wonder if taking Forktress is still useful in this situation as it might often come up.
Beardedragon wrote: Im still unsure how the damage of KMB to myself works, given it deals 1 wound to me on a roll of 1. Someone once said to me that you can only take 1 damage from each gun, making it painfully slow to roll, others say its every hit roll of 1 that deals damage to me, making it faster to roll all the KMBs at once.
To be honest i dont read it as me being able to only take 1 damage per gun but thats just me.
That "someone" is correct.
Maybe with rule comparison you will see the difference.
Here the rule for KMB:
If any unmodified hit rolls of 1 are made for attacks with this weapon, the bearer suffers 1 mortal wound after shooting with this weapon
And here is the rule for an overcharged Ion gun (riptide) :
Each time an unmodified hit roll of 1 is made for an attack with this weapon profile, the bearer’s unit suffers 1 mortal wound after shooting with this weapon
"if any rolls of 1 are made" = "one or more rolls of 1". So no matter the KMB bearer rolls one or two or three 1s, he will get only 1 MW.
On the other hand, the riptide will take as many MW as it rolls 1s
"Blast. If any unmodified hit rolls of 1 are made for attacks with this weapon, the bearer suffers 1 mortal wound after shooting with this weapon."
So if 1 KMB rolls all 1s, its still 1 MW because its "any rolls of 1 after shooting with this weapon" Different weapons, different "this weapon" instances.
A Deffdread with quad KMBs will have to separate each gun's dice, as he can suffer a max of 4 MW, and depending on which dice rolled what, might only take 1-2 despite many 1s being rolled. One of the many reasons to use multi-colored dice.
Beardedragon wrote: Im still unsure how the damage of KMB to myself works, given it deals 1 wound to me on a roll of 1. Someone once said to me that you can only take 1 damage from each gun, making it painfully slow to roll, others say its every hit roll of 1 that deals damage to me, making it faster to roll all the KMBs at once.
To be honest i dont read it as me being able to only take 1 damage per gun but thats just me.
That "someone" is correct.
Maybe with rule comparison you will see the difference.
Here the rule for KMB:
If any unmodified hit rolls of 1 are made for attacks with this weapon, the bearer suffers 1 mortal wound after shooting with this weapon
And here is the rule for an overcharged Ion gun (riptide) :
Each time an unmodified hit roll of 1 is made for an attack with this weapon profile, the bearer’s unit suffers 1 mortal wound after shooting with this weapon
"if any rolls of 1 are made" = "one or more rolls of 1". So no matter the KMB bearer rolls one or two or three 1s, he will get only 1 MW.
On the other hand, the riptide will take as many MW as it rolls 1s
guess you learn something new everyday.
Thanks buddy while its good, it also takes an awefully long time to shoot all 7 KMBs at a tournament though
What I mean by gap is that I reactively used the 5++ KFF in his first shooting phase, but I didn't call waaagh on the bottom of my turn. It meant that during the top of the 2nd turn I had a gap in my invuls which is awkward.
I wonder if taking Forktress is still useful in this situation as it might often come up.
I think it is. I've played exploding KFF and a forktress wagon pretty much the entire edition and the issue with KFF (even with 2) is that it has a small footprint and at 2000 points there's a lot of stuff you want under the bubble. So, having a valuable model that is permanently shielded regardless of where the KFF is positioned is very useful, and it's not like 20 points are going to really change anything if they are spared.
I'd also call the waaagh turn 2 to maximize the offensive abilities. Calling it turn 1 just for the 5++ seems like a waste.
"Blast. If any unmodified hit rolls of 1 are made for attacks with this weapon, the bearer suffers 1 mortal wound after shooting with this weapon."
So if 1 KMB rolls all 1s, its still 1 MW because its "any rolls of 1 after shooting with this weapon"
Different weapons, different "this weapon" instances.
A Deffdread with quad KMBs will have to separate each gun's dice, as he can suffer a max of 4 MW, and depending on which dice rolled what, might only take 1-2 despite many 1s being rolled. One of the many reasons to use multi-colored dice.
Yes, thankfully it's only 1 per gun....
The other day I armed a Mega-Tank with all KMB. My Grots were so excited when I let rip with nearly max shots! Surely the target was about to vaporize. And then I rolled incredibly poorly to hit. Had it not been for that cap I'd have killed my tank & still had damage left over. As was I only crippled the poor tank.
5 Killa Kans with Skorchas are 200 points. Between Waaagh and Scrag Em they get 25 attacks at S9, AP-3, D3, hitting on 4s and 5d6 Skorcha shots to help clear chaff in and out of melee. They also have 25 wounds at T5, 3+ save, with Ramshackle and a 5++/6++ under the Waaagh, so they're reasonably beefy.
Kanz kind of fill the same niche as MANz do, so I'll compare the two units.
5 Goff Meganobz with Kombi-Skorchas are also 200 points. Under a Waaagh, on the charge they get 20 attacks at S14, AP-3, D2, also hitting on 4s, and with the same amount of Skorcha shots but at range only. The Klaw damage can be bumped to D3 with Hit Em Harder. They have 15 wounds at T5, 2+ save and a 5++/6++ in Waaagh turns.
S14 is obviously a big boon for the MANz, but S9 will do the job most of the time, and crucially they get more attacks while they keep their numbers up, and they come with D3 as standard. They also get to fire their Skorchas in combat, so there's lots of chaff clearing and chip damage potential. MANz are also slower than Kanz, but have an extra pip of LD.
With Ramming Speed, Kanz get a 3d6" charge and some additional wounds. This makes the charge slightly more reliable than a rerollable 2d6". I'll say that the cost of Ramming Speed is offset by the fact you're likely spending the same CP on Hit Em Harder for the MANz.
If you dump the Kanz up the board with Tellyport, you basically guarantee the charge and they will probably mulch whatever they hit.
I think that Kanz might be a viable choice to replace MANz as a hard hitting bully unit. Get onto an objective and kill whatevers on it, then sit there and fend the opponent off. Less and less of our lists are using HS slots, and Kanz leaves more room for Kommandos. They also replace the points cost of a transport vehicle, and only replace it with CP cost if you want to Tellyport them. Once again, I'll ignore the Ramming Speed/Hit Em Harder CP tax as a point of conparison as you're basically guaranteed to be using them.
Spoiler:
Or you use both
Manz are not s14. Modificators add up after multiplicators now.
And kanz are fun and all but 5 kanz are 5 VP for your enemy. And you're likely running other vehicles alongside. So, unfortunately, of you're taking things like mek guns, buggies, koptaz or, even worse, trukks, wagons or rigs, I'd not take even more easy-tp-kill vehicles.
And kanz are fun and all but 5 kanz are 5 VP for your enemy. And you're likely running other vehicles alongside. So, unfortunately, of you're taking things like mek guns, buggies, koptaz or, even worse, trukks, wagons or rigs, I'd not take even more easy-tp-kill vehicles.
Well, generally speaking yes, kanz are easy VPs. But if you bring a list that already guarantees max VPs for killing vehicles that's the one time I'd say kanz are legit there. I think bringing potential 15 VPs for bring it down is worse than bringing 18-25.
How would you use kanz though? I always deepstriked (deepstruck? what ever) Kanz in. Walking them up the board seems really dangerous. Same goes for Deff Dreads honestly.
I've only played as distractions or "why not?" units and because I loathe spamming the same stuff over and over again. So if I wanted a list that was based on tons of vehicles and just some MSU to do actions, adding dreads and/or kanz along all the other vehicles didn't seem a bad idea. The opponent could typically ignore them and in that case they might get their points back or focus on them saving more valuable vehicles. Of couse they were never the best option but I refuse to play skew builds based around 3 kill rigs, 5 planes, 10-15 koptas, or 9 squigbuggies (or buggies in general).
I've never tried investing deep in walkers though, like deepstriking them or paying 200+ points.
Beardedragon wrote: Im still unsure how the damage of KMB to myself works, given it deals 1 wound to me on a roll of 1. Someone once said to me that you can only take 1 damage from each gun, making it painfully slow to roll, others say its every hit roll of 1 that deals damage to me, making it faster to roll all the KMBs at once.
To be honest i dont read it as me being able to only take 1 damage per gun but thats just me.
That "someone" is correct.
Maybe with rule comparison you will see the difference.
Here the rule for KMB:
If any unmodified hit rolls of 1 are made for attacks with this weapon, the bearer suffers 1 mortal wound after shooting with this weapon
And here is the rule for an overcharged Ion gun (riptide) :
Each time an unmodified hit roll of 1 is made for an attack with this weapon profile, the bearer’s unit suffers 1 mortal wound after shooting with this weapon
"if any rolls of 1 are made" = "one or more rolls of 1". So no matter the KMB bearer rolls one or two or three 1s, he will get only 1 MW.
On the other hand, the riptide will take as many MW as it rolls 1s
guess you learn something new everyday.
Thanks buddy while its good, it also takes an awefully long time to shoot all 7 KMBs at a tournament though
You need to have different colored dice, at least 6 of each color. Orks is one of these armies that requires preparation when playing with the clock. Thoses KMB shots won't use up much extra clock if you have these special pools of 6 dice. Of course if you have a model with 7 KMBs like the grot super tank then its less convenient, but still works, just have a box of 7 colors (6 dice per color)
Beardedragon wrote: How would you use kanz though? I always deepstriked (deepstruck? what ever) Kanz in. Walking them up the board seems really dangerous. Same goes for Deff Dreads honestly.
You could probably get away with walking them if you're already running a vehicle heavy list, as a kind of second wave to clear out objective the buggies and koptas have already softened. Maybe the same if you have an alpha strike list and if you can get enemy threats tied up turn one.
TedNugent wrote: You know, the whole 5++ WAAAGH rule does kind of make me question why they couldn't have just left the KFF alone.
There was an obvious push from 8th to 9th to make horde spam less viable in order to speed up the game.
It’s a direct result of tournament horde armies going to time or unable to fit in 5 rounds because of the inherent slowness of horde armies. They hammered greentide because of this removing greentide strat, busting up morale, discouraging units of 10+ w blast, removing the +1 atk on 20+ models etc, reducing kff range/amount, and reducing fnp range… guard was hit just as hard…
I’m not against using competitive tournaments for balance I think it produces a better game. Beginning of 8th was great and I think (minus sisters) we are heading to a very well balanced season (6months).. and I’m actually fine with Gw shooting for 2:45 min 5rd 2,000 pt games but there was a better way to do this then butchering horde style of play. Start with reducing excessive rolls (like goff extra hit on 6; now changed), issues like kmb above…etc.
its true though, there certainly was a push to make armies less horde focused. Whether it was because people couldnt finish the game within 3 hours when using hordes, or people hated playing against them i dont know.
But there certainly has been a push to make it less appealing. Its just in a weird state right now where you still can without fully being able to, and you are being punished heavily for trying.
Like, you can use 30 grots, but you essentially hardcore shoot yourself in the foot if you do so. You can go for 30 boys, but theres no bonus to be found doing so, and your morale is garbage now.
Automatically Appended Next Post: that reminds me. what actually happens if you use the tankbusta bomb stratagem with goffs and land a 6? anything at all? double hits?
that reminds me. what actually happens if you use the tankbusta bomb stratagem with goffs and land a 6? anything at all? double hits?
Well it says if a hit is scored the unit gets 2D3 mortals and the attack sequence ends.
I don`t think its intended to do 4D3 and thats how i play it, but it is kinda wordy so you might clear it up with your opponent.
Technically the extra attack has it`s own attack sequence, i don`t think that special scenario is covered by any FAQ.
You could argue the strat does only work for this single attack so you would get an additional hit without Mortals which is weird as well but at least does not do 4D3 Mortals.^^
Beardedragon wrote: How would you use kanz though? I always deepstriked (deepstruck? what ever) Kanz in. Walking them up the board seems really dangerous. Same goes for Deff Dreads honestly.
I've run 2 squads of 3 goff kanz alongside ghaz and makari. They were scoring and did some minor damage in mellee. We're not too bad in that list actually. But they hugely depend on how well you roll those advance rolls.
I've tried different loadouts:
Rokkits seem one of the best options on paper but in real games I've found that a couple extra inches from advances have been more beneficial overall. They have decent mellee and 3d3 rokkit shots from slow platforms for 115 pts is nothing to write home about. You got other rokkit sources for this job. So, unless you're planning to face a bunch of -1 to-hit multi-wound enemies, I'd not spend extra pts okln kan rokkits.
Shootas are ok in a sense that you don't spend extra, so, it's fine. And they can do some ap2 shooting across the board to push a wound or two somewhere during that SPEEDWAAAGH turn.
Skorchas generally don't shoot turn 1 but allow you to advance and shoot t2 or t1 if the opponent closes distance and you get some good advances. They don't do much, ofc, but hey, flamers are okish. They can even fire some overwatch if you have the points.
All in all, there is not much of a difference but I prefer skorchas. Or shootas for when you don't have any points at all.
Kanz are a mediocre unit overall that doesn't do much, however, they can have their uses and are not terrible like they used to be. Especially with ap2 shooting during speedwagh. Don't expect them to do much but they can score you a couple points (and loose some due to hemorrhaging VP for bring it down).
Due to their speed and overall stats they're mostly useful In mixed lists.
Hmm the Gw app removed kustom jobs cost. I don’t know if this means kustom jobs are free… but it’s interesting if they are.. I don’t think it changes much if they are but there are some interesting options now that previously sucked but got a bit more points efficient..
A klaw deffdread (or Krumpa gorkanaut) with stompa pistons is just a cool addition to a list.
A single nitrosquig squigbuggy is no longer the worst buggy…
Shokk atk gun w runtsucka isnt bad for the points…
Boomer Gunwagon is just as viable as kannonwagon..
Shokkahull on frazzle Killrig is fun
MAN missle forktress got a bit easier to deliver..
More Dakka Dakkajet might be decent w speedwaagh instead of wazbom…
If they are free im still not sure this makes speedwaagh viable again but it makes things better. It does open up more options and might slightly upgrade goff pressure orks into at least top of B tier.
It's a real nice upgrade that makes burna boyz okish - 10 pts per Model vor Flamer, MW in Cc and optional Ap -2 is decent, especially with DS obsec, they seem better than boys or even snaggas. 3 Trukkboy Manz + 5 or 6 Burnas in a single trukk might work...
That's really awesome actually, stuff like zzapkrumpas or red rolla are decent upgrades but were not worth their points up till now.
It's also great for crusade if it gets transferred over to PL, the scrap mechanic would no longer be worthless and there is an actual incentive to get a mek workshop.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
gungo wrote: Hmm the Gw app removed kustom jobs cost. I don’t know if this means kustom jobs are free…
It literally says "0PT" in my app - costs haven't been removed, they have been set to 0.
Jidmah wrote: That's rally awesome actually, stuff like zzapkrumpas or red rolla are decent upgrades but were not worth their points up till now.
It's also great for crusade if it gets transferred over to PL, the scrap mechanic would no longer be worthless and there is an actual incentive to get a mek workshop.
Ya that’s the way I see it..
If this is legitimate change it doesn’t make me want to change my list to add something else but it makes the units I need to take a bit more useful..
I’m not going to all of a sudden take a bonebreaka just because red rolla is free but if I wanted to take one it wouldn’t suck as much as it did before.
The army of renown while still not great in nephilim is a lot more fun with a dual outrider and 1 of every buggy and all the extra kustom jobs (including the speedmob versions).
Removing points would simply mean the points flag is gone, similar to Specialist Mobs. This could be a bug or an error - similar to how we were kept guessing after the PDF release.
This is explicitly stating that their cost is 0 with no room for interpretation or arguments.
Free kustom jobs are simply more bloat: now we have to keep track of a dozen buffs that have become auto take and still don't really change anything significantly.
Do you guys take official GW app as a reliable source of information? There are bugs all the time and mostly not fixed for the long time as I understand.
I mean they didn’t include them in the points update either… how many times do we brush it off as a mistake? It seems as jidmah said someone taking the effort to manually change kustom job points cost and remove them all is a bit more intentional..
This sounds like the atk out of da sun issue people just would not accept it as working as intended even 6 months after it’s release. After all other books were errata’d, the book was discontinued, tournaments were allowing it RAW and still people argued it’s a mistake.
However I agree and hope this is a preview of a potential faq/errata release that’s due any moment.
Well. my battlescribe doesnt make kustom jobs free at least. And its not really a GW source either so theres that, but GWs app has made many mistakes in the past.
Well, when I checked immediately after the points update pdf, they still had rhe points cost. With the latest update from 27. June, they set the points cost to zero. Seems like an active decision for me...
gungo wrote: I mean they didn’t include them in the points update either… how many times do we brush it off as a mistake? It seems as jidmah said someone taking the effort to manually change kustom job points cost and remove them all is a bit more intentional..
This sounds like the atk out of da sun issue people just would not accept it as working as intended even 6 months after it’s release. After all other books were errata’d, the book was discontinued, tournaments were allowing it RAW and still people argued it’s a mistake.
However I agree and hope this is a preview of a potential faq/errata release that’s due any moment.
Beardedragon wrote: Well. my battlescribe doesnt make kustom jobs free at least. And its not really a GW source either so theres that, but GWs app has made many mistakes in the past.
I mean Manually changing point cost to zero seems a bit more than a mistake and more intentional but it’s possible the app team just wasted 5 min of thier time making those changes by accident.
Beardedragon wrote: Well. my battlescribe doesnt make kustom jobs free at least. And its not really a GW source either so theres that, but GWs app has made many mistakes in the past.
I mean Manually changing point cost to zero seems a bit more than a mistake and more intentional but it’s possible the app team just wasted 5 min of thier time making those changes by accident.
i agree, but i think waiting for some kind of explaination might b better than to expect this to be the case and roll with it. Im just saying, they have made mistakes in the past, especially with the GW app. I think ill hold off trying to call this an actual thing untill they make a statement of a sort. Because if it was the case, I would assume they would put it in that quarterly update, where they explain that they are now free.
Beardedragon wrote: Well. my battlescribe doesnt make kustom jobs free at least. And its not really a GW source either so theres that, but GWs app has made many mistakes in the past.
I mean Manually changing point cost to zero seems a bit more than a mistake and more intentional but it’s possible the app team just wasted 5 min of thier time making those changes by accident.
i agree, but i think waiting for some kind of explaination might b better than to expect this to be the case and roll with it. Im just saying, they have made mistakes in the past, especially with the GW app. I think ill hold off trying to call this an actual thing untill they make a statement of a sort. Because if it was the case, I would assume they would put it in that quarterly update, where they explain that they are now free.
But they didnt.
Probably a mistake, but the munitorum field manual does not list any of the upgrades - so following the current trend of not listed = free it's technically correct.
I mean I been playing with the list building in BattleScribe and free kustom jobs doesn’t really make me want to change any lists…
All kustom jobs do is prevent unit spamming… I do like stuff like the shokk atk gun not because it’s great but it now has the stats it should have always had without being overpriced. And a stompa piston klaw deffdred just seems fun. I hope this is legit it might bring out a little more variety in what is shaping up to be a season with very limited selection of competitive list viability.
Right now goff pressure (or bloodaxe) is the only competitive list that seems to be decent and shokka hull or squig tires on Killrig is the only tangible upgrade there.
Beardedragon wrote: Well. my battlescribe doesnt make kustom jobs free at least. And its not really a GW source either so theres that, but GWs app has made many mistakes in the past.
I mean Manually changing point cost to zero seems a bit more than a mistake and more intentional but it’s possible the app team just wasted 5 min of thier time making those changes by accident.
i agree, but i think waiting for some kind of explaination might b better than to expect this to be the case and roll with it. Im just saying, they have made mistakes in the past, especially with the GW app. I think ill hold off trying to call this an actual thing untill they make a statement of a sort. Because if it was the case, I would assume they would put it in that quarterly update, where they explain that they are now free.
But they didnt.
Probably a mistake, but the munitorum field manual does not list any of the upgrades - so following the current trend of not listed = free it's technically correct.
i guess, but not even battlescribe have gotten that Memo. But then again, i still pay 3CP to run a super heavy auxillary detatchment when it should be free so.. yea.. You are right though, its technically free.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Anyway, non of the kustom jobs seems to be a game changer, so yeah, why do not play them for free for a while, unless anybody explicitly bans it. The note about AOOTS paranoia seems to be legit….
Yes, they are fine. Very nice for free and definitely an autotake. But not game breaking.
Anyway, I did a small digging to secondaries.
- In Nephilin, we have very narrow range of secondaries we can take. And not only us as it see… so the each army will profile to that range of secondaries. Man have know the opponents secondaries more.
- There is a mixture of secondaries orks can take:
PURGE THE ENEMY
We have a nice offer of Assasination, Bring it down and Da Biggest and Da Best. Which is a trap little bit, but wait… We' ll definitely take one of these in almost every game.
NO MERCY, NO RESPITE
Bad selection. Grind them down will be hardly our choice. No Prisoners are our only option, but not all of the opponents are the right target for us. Stomp' em good… situational. We cannot rely on this chapter at all.
WARPCRAFT
Abhorn the with can be fine againts some targets, so situational. The two others - Interrogation and Ritual are definitely a think we can play againts anybody.
BATTLEFIELD SUPREMACY
New Engage and Behind enemy lines are hard to score. Almost impossible againts some armies. None the Green Tide. We cannot rely on this chapter imho.
SHADOW OPERATIONS
Bitz are our best choice. We cen definitely rely on them with the right lists. Banners and Data are also not bad, but Bitz rules. We can rely on this chapter.
As I see it:
First secondary = Bitz
Second secondary = anything from PURGE THE ENEMY - either bring it down, assasination or Da Biggest.
Third secondary - ooh mighty third secondary! What if we face the knights? And bet we will! Without the psykers, the best you can do is Engage. That will be rough! And not only knights. There could be a lot of armies giving us a hard time to score the third one.
The only option is to take a psyker (two if possible for redundacy) and do the Ritual or Interrogation. That are the only reliable secondaries we can use as the third one.
So the minimum set of HQ is
- some warboss for Da Biggest - motowarboss or squigosaur boss
- big mek with KFF - psyker. - weirdboy or wurrboy or killrig
Which is maximum Battalion can offer. And we give the opponent 10 VP on Assasination + killing our character = stop us from scoring. That is rough!
Pretty much!
Also keep track of how many points you give up. To many characters or vehicles is an easy score for your opponent.
I like psychic interrogation for the chance at more CP but it’s a risky secondary that some armies can deny or kill all your psychers.
The biggest and best is nice but also risky as your warlord will get killed… ghaz, squigboss w ard as nails and beastmantle? Durable but either needs to kill or objective sit and that’s alot of points on a key unit to camp objectives.
gungo wrote: Pretty much!
Also keep track of how many points you give up. To many characters or vehicles is an easy score for your opponent.
I like psychic interrogation for the chance at more CP but it’s a risky secondary that some armies can deny or kill all your psychers.
The biggest and best is nice but also risky as your warlord will get killed… ghaz, squigboss w ard as nails and beastmantle? Durable but either needs to kill or objective sit and that’s alot of points on a key unit to camp objectives.
Yeah exactly! Da biggest has the advetage, that there are two another secondaries in the chapter, you can take.
Interrogation not! If you go this way, you have to do it for sure! And you give up the assasination.
I can imagine some kind of list with tons of small warbiker/stormtrooper units or something sendig forward score Engage every turn and die. That can work.
I 'm thinkig about Speed Mob as obvious. I like it. And looking the way how to make it work. And what I found is, that - as you see from this and previous post - it' s not an issue you give up Bring it down. Becuase any other list give up some another secondary or two too. And if the Kustom Jobs are free, well, even better!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Hohoho I take a Wazboom with the Shocka Hull againts this jumpack intruders of flight opperations
Do you guys take official GW app as a reliable source of information? There are bugs all the time and mostly not fixed for the long time as I understand.
Kustom jobs had their points removed in two different official sources, maintained by different teams. Someone at GW went through the trouble to change the points in the app, which means there is intent behind it. The app just confirmed what we were left guessing about in the PDF.
Still might be a mistake, but right now there is no reason to believe so. And I'm absolutely sure that GW will immediately fix any accidental buffs applied to orks
Kustom jobs had their points removed in two different official sources, maintained by different teams. Someone at GW went through the trouble to change the points in the app, which means there is intent behind it. The app just confirmed what we were left guessing about in the PDF.
Still might be a mistake, but right now there is no reason to believe so. And I'm absolutely sure that GW will immediately fix any accidental buffs applied to orks
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh my Gork! That will be a mess! Three scrapjets, each of them with the different Kustom job!!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Anyway, non of the kustom jobs seems to be a game changer, so yeah, why do not play them for free for a while, unless anybody explicitly bans it. The note about AOOTS paranoia seems to be legit….
thats weird. I was not under the assumption that there was a debate as to whether or not you could use bomb squigs in transports? I fail to see why you couldnt, as you could use any other type of ability a unit has. Why should bomb squigs be excempted?
If its counted as a normal shooting weapon you can fire it as normal. if its an ability, then this kicks in:
Any abilities (including Detachment abilities) that models in an embarked unit have, or that their weapons have, continue to apply when they make ranged attacks.
Its even written in the "Ability" section under wargear. I fail to see why an ability isnt an ability.
thats weird. I was not under the assumption that there was a debate as to whether or not you could use bomb squigs in transports…
Also never heard about it…
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ok, third argument to accept that Kustom jobs are for free now. So I call this question solved. From reddit…
prior to writing this, i was firmly in the it was a mistake, they still cost points camp. to support that I went through the munitorum field manual and looked at EVERY single faction. anyone who has a 9th ed codex/supplement has them listed save orks. CSM was not released at the time of the MFM and still had its upgrades listed.
Given every single faction that has them has points listed, EXCEPT the orks, i am inclined to believe it is intentional and not an accidental omission.
space marines - chapter command points - listed
black templars - relic bearers - listed
blood angels - the lost - listed
dark angels - rights of initiation - listed
space wolves - nothing listed - no 9th ed supplement
deathwatch - kill team specializations - listed
grey knights - wisdom of prognosticars - listed
sisters - blessing of faithful - listed
custodes - captain-commander - listed
guard - 8th ed book, doesnt have upgrades
admech - holy orders - listed
knights - exalted court - listed
CSM - marks of chaos - listed
DG - deadly pathogens - listed
world eaters - doesnt have specific ones
1ksuns - legion command - listed
chaos daemons - 8th ed book, doesnt have them
Chaos Knights - favors of dark gods - listed
Asuryani - exarch powers - listed
harlies - pivotal roles - listed
Drukhari - listed
crons - cryptek arkana - listed
orks - not listed
Tau - prototype systems - listed
nids - listed
GSC - listed
Bomb squigs are just tokens…
The only bomb squig debate I’ve ever read was the fact you can’t use them if the unit can’t shoot. Which luckily no tournament has blocked.
The only luck I’ve had with buggy list is the speed mob army of renown w double outrider. Kustom jobs make it a fun list. I mean secondaries are an issue but your taking engage and giving up bring it down regardless.
gungo wrote: Bomb squigs are just tokens…
The only bomb squig debate I’ve ever read was the fact you can’t use them if the unit can’t shoot. Which luckily no tournament has blocked.
what do you mean? One surely cant use squig bombs if you cant shoot because you need to be able to activate shooting in order to use them?
Squig riders couldnt use them in close combat for instance.
gungo wrote: Bomb squigs are just tokens…
The only bomb squig debate I’ve ever read was the fact you can’t use them if the unit can’t shoot. Which luckily no tournament has blocked.
what do you mean? One surely cant use squig bombs if you cant shoot because you need to be able to activate shooting in order to use them?
Squig riders couldnt use them in close combat for instance.
It’s the transport thing. It’s not a shooting atk and abilities are usually blocked in transports.
gungo wrote: Bomb squigs are just tokens… The only bomb squig debate I’ve ever read was the fact you can’t use them if the unit can’t shoot. Which luckily no tournament has blocked.
what do you mean? One surely cant use squig bombs if you cant shoot because you need to be able to activate shooting in order to use them?
Squig riders couldnt use them in close combat for instance.
It’s the transport thing. It’s not a shooting atk and abilities are usually blocked in transports.
i see.
Well its been a few months since it came out i think, but as per:
. Any abilities (including Detachment abilities) that models in an embarked unit have, or that their weapons have, continue to apply when they make ranged attacks.
Then abilities can definitely be used in transports.
Except that its an ability looking for a target in range, which you cannot do as the unit is not actually on the board.
That faq is to prevent people from going "Hurhur i dont suffer -1 to hit cause transport hurhur"
TedNugent wrote: You know, the whole 5++ WAAAGH rule does kind of make me question why they couldn't have just left the KFF alone.
There was an obvious push from 8th to 9th to make horde spam less viable in order to speed up the game.
It’s a direct result of tournament horde armies going to time or unable to fit in 5 rounds because of the inherent slowness of horde armies. They hammered greentide because of this removing greentide strat, busting up morale, discouraging units of 10+ w blast, removing the +1 atk on 20+ models etc, reducing kff range/amount, and reducing fnp range… guard was hit just as hard…
I’m not against using competitive tournaments for balance I think it produces a better game. Beginning of 8th was great and I think (minus sisters) we are heading to a very well balanced season (6months).. and I’m actually fine with Gw shooting for 2:45 min 5rd 2,000 pt games but there was a better way to do this then butchering horde style of play. Start with reducing excessive rolls (like goff extra hit on 6; now changed), issues like kmb above…etc.
Here is the kicker, every single GT and ITC event I have been to in 9th, my opponents are out of time way before me and I'm usually bringing at least 2x as many models. I get the general point but at some point if the goal for GW is to speed up games they have to realize that handing out re-roll hits/wounds to every fething unit slows the game down. Custodes were the worst offenders in my opinion because they had re-rolls on top of re-rolls. "Ohh i get another free re-roll because reasons!"
As far as nobz....I think the point between which is better, Double choppa or Big Choppa is kind of a moot point...they both suck. Nobz need to be 14pts base not 17, just like Lootas need to be 11-12pts max not 14 AND they need to get rid of the stupid spanna rule. Unless they drastically change the rules for those two units neither will be competitive without a hefty points drop.
that reminds me. what actually happens if you use the tankbusta bomb stratagem with goffs and land a 6? anything at all? double hits?
Well it says if a hit is scored the unit gets 2D3 mortals and the attack sequence ends.
I don`t think its intended to do 4D3 and thats how i play it, but it is kinda wordy so you might clear it up with your opponent.
Technically the extra attack has it`s own attack sequence, i don`t think that special scenario is covered by any FAQ.
You could argue the strat does only work for this single attack so you would get an additional hit without Mortals which is weird as well but at least does not do 4D3 Mortals.^^
I've always played it as you get 2x the hits because yeah it says the attack sequence ends, but the exploding 6 isn't generating a new attack, its DOUBLE the # of hits with the weapon being used. It doesn't make any sense that you swing with a hammer and get a 2nd hit from the hammer with a hand or a choppa instead of the hammer itself, I can't think of any other scenario where that happens. I mean...its going to be a relatively rare scenario in and of itself so i say screw it, let them have the 4D3 mortals.
Finally, I have to say, I find it hilarious the amount of Stockholm syndrome we in the ork community have. GW Purposefully made Kustom Jobs free and we as an entire community have to question whether this was intentional or not, even after almost a solid year of almost nobody ever taking any of them because of how useless they are The fact that GW handed us a relatively smart decision just flabbergasted us entirely and we just assume they fethed up and it was a mistake
Yeah, it' s a pure paranoia. Since “semi-releasing” of the new ork codex in the Snagga box, we live in constant mess of how the rules works. Trukkboyz that cannot go to the trukk was the first beginning. It' s a year already? And I still have no idea how this +1 to hit rule for trukkboyz works.
That - and the reroll issue !!” - is the reason why I play the speed mob and love it so much.
- number of rerolls = 1 (reroll on charge)
- auras = 1 (6” antiobsec, no interaction with my units and no modfication of any rolls)
- number of rules issues = 0 (AOOTS was the only one, now generaly solved and accepted)
- psychic phase = 0
- interactions with terrain = LOS and -1 to hit. Don' t care about bloody cover. Don' t care about breachable and scalable.
- number of weapon profiles = well, rokkits and big shootas. … ok there is little bit more, but they are the minor case
- move = half of the army asi 14+6. The quater are the planes. Just buggies makes a mess
- toughnes = small base T=5, big base T=6, characters T=7. Most of the opponents knows my T in T2
- 5++ unless T1, close combat or dropped from DS. Basic save is 4+ so I don' t care about AP -2 and bigger.
I simply need to actively use a very small ammount of rules and I simply roll. No tricks, no rerolls. I can play very fast.
First secondary = Bitz
Second secondary = anything from PURGE THE ENEMY - either bring it down, assasination or Da Biggest.
Third secondary - ooh mighty third secondary! What if we face the knights? And bet we will! Without the psykers, the best you can do is Engage. That will be rough! And not only knights. There could be a lot of armies giving us a hard time to score the third one.
The only option is to take a psyker (two if possible for redundacy) and do the Ritual or Interrogation. That are the only reliable secondaries we can use as the third one.
So the minimum set of HQ is
- some warboss for Da Biggest - motowarboss or squigosaur boss
- big mek with KFF - psyker. - weirdboy or wurrboy or killrig
Which is maximum Battalion can offer. And we give the opponent 10 VP on Assasination + killing our character = stop us from scoring. That is rough!
Totally agree @tomsug. As I wrote maybe a week or two back I´m on that track too. Considering that everyone was hit by the shake up I say we came out better for it. We actually have a natural pick of 3 that makes a coherent plan. Most armies don´t.
On a board with a center objective we have a good proposition. Slingshot Grotz for Bitz, the same with the WL and finally Ritual with the Pysker a few steps behind. That´s T1 3 + 2 + 3 for doing almost nothing. As long as we manage screening correct we´re in a better strategical place than anyone. They must break into our bubble to stop the points generator which suits us fine. We want them to come to use as we excel at this fight. This give us a lot of freedom to focus on hindering their secondary generation.
On a board without a center objective we just switch Ritual to Interrogation and pick the 2 mid board objectives that suits best.
The rest is standard stuff. Protect home base, tag another objective, play the trading game.
So as other's have mentioned, I'm really debating in most of our Goff lists whether or not Warpath and Fists of Gork/Da Jump is more useful than a Wurrboy's Frazzle and Spirit of Gork powers. I obviously run Squighog boyz to make use of the relevant powers, but what has worked out better for you guys in your experience? I feel like AoC has made Warpath less enticing.
Grimskul wrote: So as other's have mentioned, I'm really debating in most of our Goff lists whether or not Warpath and Fists of Gork/Da Jump is more useful than a Wurrboy's Frazzle and Spirit of Gork powers. I obviously run Squighog boyz to make use of the relevant powers, but what has worked out better for you guys in your experience? I feel like AoC has made Warpath less enticing.
# of attacks is rarely an issue for units, especially in Goffs which gets bonuses hits. Fists of Gork definitely still is interesting (although I hate the range), as our characters lack sweeps and still want a billion attacks to get around certain high toughness units or transhuman.
Spirit of Gork seems cool if you are taking like 15 hogs as it does make them a threat into AoC. But you could also get this from a Kill Rig, which are more interesting again.
Grimskul wrote: So as other's have mentioned, I'm really debating in most of our Goff lists whether or not Warpath and Fists of Gork/Da Jump is more useful than a Wurrboy's Frazzle and Spirit of Gork powers. I obviously run Squighog boyz to make use of the relevant powers, but what has worked out better for you guys in your experience? I feel like AoC has made Warpath less enticing.
# of attacks is rarely an issue for units, especially in Goffs which gets bonuses hits. Fists of Gork definitely still is interesting (although I hate the range), as our characters lack sweeps and still want a billion attacks to get around certain high toughness units or transhuman.
Spirit of Gork seems cool if you are taking like 15 hogs as it does make them a threat into AoC. But you could also get this from a Kill Rig, which are more interesting again.
Fair point regarding number of attacks, I usually do take Kill Rigs rather than Wurrboyz on their own, but I'm heading into a 2v2 game where I can only bring 1000 points so stuff like Kill Rigs are a bit cost prohibitive for what I want to bring, hence why I'm debating taking either a Weirdboy or Wurrboy in this particular list.
Tomsug wrote: One important note regarding secondaries:
You can give up Assasination if you give up Bring it down and vice versa. They are the same chapter. Apponent cannot take both.
So the good place for Killrigs is in vehicle heavy list.
this is true.
Why no prisoners and Bring it down is in each their own category and not their own seems like a slap in the face to ork players though. It wouldnt be difficult for me to make a list that almost gives max points in both categories.
One shouldnt be able to get 30 points by running a kill game like that. It should be bring it down, or prisoners, not both. I mean hell, run 2 kill rigs and 2 trukks (which isnt difficult to kill) and thats 10 points for bring it down already.
but thats more of a personal opinion and annoyance really.
But the fact that we can have many characters while also having many vehicles and them being unable to take both assassinate and bring it down at the same time, is good.
Got a friendly game today, going to be running a straight shenanigans list featuring my Kill Rig equipped with frazzle AND shokka hull now that its free
Also bringing out the Squigs in force, 15 squighog boyz along with 3 nobz on smasha squigs and a beastboss on squigosaur Wish me luck should be hilarious.
I wish you luck. I trust in Killrigs as the new kings of the table.
Beardragon - it is ok we hve to give up one secondary. Almost any list today have to.
The points are:
- give it up on the paper. Not in the gameplan. 10VP in Koptas hidden by AOOTS are “given up” on the paper but not on the table. Or used to be….
- you can give up one if you score a lot on two other and can block the scoring the opponent.
If they are free im still not sure this makes speedwaagh viable again but it makes things better. It does open up more options and might slightly upgrade goff pressure orks into at least top of B tier.
If it's true, the biggest winners in my book are minimeks. I love running deff skull minimeks in small games. And getting free 10 pts extra shot for a 25 pt unit is great.
Unfortunately, I believe it's an accident and the points are gonna be present soon.
Tomsug wrote: I wish you luck. I trust in Killrigs as the new kings of the table.
Beardragon - it is ok we hve to give up one secondary. Almost any list today have to.
The points are:
- give it up on the paper. Not in the gameplan. 10VP in Koptas hidden by AOOTS are “given up” on the paper but not on the table. Or used to be…. - you can give up one if you score a lot on two other and can block the scoring the opponent.
yes but my point was where others tend to give up one point, prisoners, bring it down or assassinate, then its quite easy for us to give up both prisoners and bring it down. Like my current list gives up like 12-13 points of no prisoners, but also 10 points of bring it down by having 2 trukks and 2 kill rigs.
Bring 3x3 deffkoptas and thats 9 points already for a rather meager amount of points too. Bring it down and prisoners should be in the same category so that others cant just farm a kill game from us like that.
I played an (yarrick and creed led) astra militarum infantry horde yesterday. I went second so he pushed onto the centre objectives (mission abadoned sanctuaries). I called waagh and made 100% of my charges and killed everything I touched. We played t2 but I'd wiped half his army in one turn. Guard are still not a concern and the ability to get up to s6 against t3 enemies is great with the new wAagh.
Couple of points on the secondaries.
If you want to score get the good bits end of T1 with grots on any objective 12" away from from your deployment zone you'll need for them to start in a vehicle AND have a runt herder nearby. The objective is just outside 8" so you'll need the 1" boost a grot lash gives you.
One benefit of green tide over engage is that you can "take a turn off" to allow units to kill/do actions and still score all 15vps
In terms of Kustom jobs don't forget about the extra kustom weapon on the mega armour big mek. Free Kustom jobs are great when free and I managed to get an additional 85 points worth of kit.
I play guard as well but I agree guard is not competitive however thier strength is vehicle durability now you fortunately they still can’t score. Infantry horde is just bad.
If they are free im still not sure this makes speedwaagh viable again but it makes things better. It does open up more options and might slightly upgrade goff pressure orks into at least top of B tier.
If it's true, the biggest winners in my book are minimeks. I love running deff skull minimeks in small games. And getting free 10 pts extra shot for a 25 pt unit is great.
Unfortunately, I believe it's an accident and the points are gonna be present soon.
I mean it’s just a kmb character that dies to a stiff breeze.. that’s basically worse then a 40pt mekgun and bleeds assassinate points. I’m Cool with giving it to a begmek in mega armor with kff to make him offer something else when the kff is blown first turn.. but it’s not a big deal.
So ironically my opponent today was Guard as well. He turned up with spamming High RoF weapons to capitalize on the 6s auto-wound rule. He won the roll off and deployed relatively aggressively (24' no mans land). Turn 1 he wiped out ALL my 30 kommandos along with a squig rider or two. My turn all the remaining squigs, trukkboyz, Killrig and characters (except 1 nob on smasha squig) got into CC and at that point it was GG.
even with the successful 1st turn charge the game was still relatively close, had he gotten 1 more turn of shooting or even had a few more units to shoot with it would have gone in his favor.
Key Points: my opponent ignored my Killrig the entire game, it ended up mauling a pile of conscripts and a bunch of thud guns.
Squig riders are still terrible at shooting, but in CC have a wondrous impact.
Zagstruck is an auto-take now. Being limited to 1 detachment AND the change to WAAAGH makes him just that much better. Zag with a 5++ and a 5+++ is relatively annoying to shift for his points value and more importantly, as a goff he hits like a trukk in CC on a WAAAGH turn.
Kommandos have officially drawn the ire of the entire game. That is now 3 games in a row where my Kommandos deployed in cover have died turn 1 to a dedicated opponent doing there best to kill all of them.
It sucks losing 360pts of kommandos especially when you never got a chance to use those bombs squigs, but if they ate almost an entire gunlines first turn that isn’t to bad.
I really would like to know if 2x killrigs and a weirdboy/wurrboy is reliable enough to score psychic interrogation for at least 12vp. If not I’ll likely drop the weirdboy for a megaMek kff w kustom kmb or zaggstruk. But I think that first turn kff is too important..
SemperMortis wrote: Kommandos have officially drawn the ire of the entire game. That is now 3 games in a row where my Kommandos deployed in cover have died turn 1 to a dedicated opponent doing there best to kill all of them.
Yeah, same for me - people just pour so much firepower into kommadoz to get rid of them, it's not real anymore. It seems to work in my favor though, as they are essentially shooting the most durable unit in my army instead of other stuff.
I was originally debating whether I should run a Big Mek w/KFF to pop 1st turn so I could get my 2nd turn WAAAAGH...but in hindsight I'm glad I didn't because besides a Trukk catching some random dmg (3) and a pair of squigriders eating tank shells to the face it would have been useless since almost his entire gunline just mowed down my Kommandos in cover who were getting either 3+ or 4+ saves. BTW, fun fact. 18 Kommandos cost the exact same as 11 Tac Marines. To kill 11 Tac Marines with S4 BS3+ takes 198 shots. To kill 18 Kommandos it takes 243 shots. So technically, Kommandos are more durable then Space Marines
So far as I see nothing interesting, but please doublecheck.
They snuck in a nerf to Freebooter kultur without giving it the right font color. It's now RR1s to hit instead of +1 to hit.
Good god, that's a MASSIVE nerf.
Normal shooting went from getting a 50% boost to a 16.67% boost.
If you're eating a hit penalty? 100% boost down to... 16.67% boost.
It's only better if you already had a hit bonus, where you still get that 7/6 boost.
????? What the heck, this change wasn't even in magenta. I would have missed this otherwise. How was this warranted? Is this a mistake? Why the heck would they even bother putting this in? Badrukk is even worse now since his aura basically just replicates the Freebooter ability. What a frickin joke.
Ork players after Armour of Contempt: Hmm...freeboota is kinda dangerous now as its kinda hard to actually get that kill early enough to benefit enough out of it..
GW: Ok i'll make the decision for you. Stop using freeboota.
WTFGW? That is a massive nerf (upside things with +1 to hit now benefit...i guess)
gungo wrote: I play guard as well but I agree guard is not competitive however thier strength is vehicle durability now you fortunately they still can’t score. Infantry horde is just bad.
If they are free im still not sure this makes speedwaagh viable again but it makes things better. It does open up more options and might slightly upgrade goff pressure orks into at least top of B tier.
If it's true, the biggest winners in my book are minimeks. I love running deff skull minimeks in small games. And getting free 10 pts extra shot for a 25 pt unit is great.
Unfortunately, I believe it's an accident and the points are gonna be present soon.
I mean it’s just a kmb character that dies to a stiff breeze.. that’s basically worse then a 40pt mekgun and bleeds assassinate points. I’m Cool with giving it to a begmek in mega armor with kff to make him offer something else when the kff is blown first turn.. but it’s not a big deal.
He's just 25 pts, occupies a different force org, whi h is crucial now. He can score much easier and... just has all the benefits of being a cheap character. I just love how they perform in real games. One of the most underrated units IMIMO
Also, mek guns can't get deffscull re rolls don't have obsec, can't run through walls, are much slower and stuff.
I've had a number of games won by my 2 minimeks that happen to hit something important with their kms. Or just scored points/raised banners.
In hilarious news, 8" charges are back on the menu.
This won't stick, but hey, Da Jump -> Charge is back BABY
"Page 263 – Obscuring
Change the first sentence of the second paragraph to read: ‘Models that are on or within this terrain feature can see, and can be seen and targeted normally.’
Add the following to the end of this terrain trait:
‘While a model is within 1" of an Area Terrain feature with this trait (e.g. Ruins) and the shortest line between it and an enemy model crosses over or through this terrain feature, then while those models are within 2" horizontally and 5" vertically of each other, they are within Engagement Range of each other."
Vineheart01 wrote: Ork players after Armour of Contempt: Hmm...freeboota is kinda dangerous now as its kinda hard to actually get that kill early enough to benefit enough out of it..
GW: Ok i'll make the decision for you. Stop using freeboota.
WTFGW? That is a massive nerf (upside things with +1 to hit now benefit...i guess)
Yea the only upside I'm seeing here is it's a hard buff to melee Freebooterz, with the abundance of +1 to hit in melee we have, but unfortunately exploding 6s and +1S is still the better option for a melee army and it doesn't have an activation requirement, so uh, yea I don't see any good reasons for running Freebooterz. What's really funny is this is just a conditional version of the Bad Moons 8e trait that happens to work in melee, and the reason Bad Moons were even taken in 8e was purely on the merit of Showin' Off and not their kultur, so I really don't know why they thought this was even a passable kultur now.
Reroll a hit roll of 1? Does that mean when freebootas units destroy a single unit, each remaining unit untill the end of the phase, can reroll all hit rolls of 1 or just a single hit roll of 1?
Because why wouldnt i just play death skulls then. If you can only reroll a single hit roll of 1 for each unit, this is useless. If its all hit rolls of 1, its still crap, but less crap.
Automatically Appended Next Post: What is the point of this? I miss it little bit..
hardly imo.
I used Blood axes for speed mobs for the CP regen anyway, i didnt use freebootas speed mobs.
They still work for blood axes, though, albeit less so with the new book and secondaries.
I absolutely fail to see why they decided to hard nerf freebootas which was already... never used. I thought about making a freebootas army just now with 2 support hunta or kill rigs but thats definitely not happening now.
Beardedragon wrote: Reroll a hit roll of 1? Does that mean when freebootas units destroy a single unit, each remaining unit untill the end of the phase, can reroll all hit rolls of 1 or just a single hit roll of 1?
Automatically Appended Next Post: What is the point of this? I miss it little bit..
hardly imo.
I used Blood axes for speed mobs for the CP regen anyway, i didnt use freebootas speed mobs.
They still work for blood axes, though, albeit less so with the new book and secondaries.
All hit rolls of 1. Not that it matters though because we aren't marines so reroll 1's is a pretty garbage trait to have when you have to proc it through killing things.
Beardedragon wrote: Reroll a hit roll of 1? Does that mean when freebootas units destroy a single unit, each remaining unit untill the end of the phase, can reroll all hit rolls of 1 or just a single hit roll of 1?
Automatically Appended Next Post: What is the point of this? I miss it little bit..
hardly imo.
I used Blood axes for speed mobs for the CP regen anyway, i didnt use freebootas speed mobs.
They still work for blood axes, though, albeit less so with the new book and secondaries.
All hit rolls of 1. Not that it matters though because we aren't marines so reroll 1's is a pretty garbage trait to have when you have to proc it through killing things.
oh totally, i just read "reroll a hit roll of 1" as reroll a single hit roll of 1.
I was just curious but you are definitely right. This is garbage beyond mortal understanding. What is even going on here? No one even used freebootas, except sometimes as a speed mob before the new warzone came out.
I sure had INTENTIONS of trying some freebootas stuff but it wouldnt be for competive play just for the giggles. Now i definitely wont.
Beardedragon wrote: Reroll a hit roll of 1? Does that mean when freebootas units destroy a single unit, each remaining unit untill the end of the phase, can reroll all hit rolls of 1 or just a single hit roll of 1?
Automatically Appended Next Post: What is the point of this? I miss it little bit..
hardly imo.
I used Blood axes for speed mobs for the CP regen anyway, i didnt use freebootas speed mobs.
They still work for blood axes, though, albeit less so with the new book and secondaries.
All hit rolls of 1. Not that it matters though because we aren't marines so reroll 1's is a pretty garbage trait to have when you have to proc it through killing things.
oh totally, i just read "reroll a hit roll of 1" as reroll a single hit roll of 1.
I was just curious but you are definitely right. This is garbage beyond mortal understanding. What is even going on here? No one even used freebootas, except sometimes as a speed mob before the new warzone came out.
I sure had INTENTIONS of trying some freebootas stuff but it wouldnt be for competive play just for the giggles. Now i definitely wont.
Yeah, I was pretty bummed out too, because I was planning to run a silly Freebooterz list run by Badrukk that was semi-competitive but now that's dropped to a borderline klanless-army list. I guess we got it too easy with the balance dataslate and GW wanted to give us a surprise gut-punch.
Totally i intended to run Ghaz as supreme to get my 5++ but still the speed waaah part. And maybe 2 distraction carnifex hunta rigs or something along side a horde of vehicles.
oh well. Its slowed but it wont change much for me. If i ever ran speed mobs it would be as blood axes anyway for the CP regen and reduced my attack out of da sun by 1 CP by extra kunning.
I mean speedmob was better as freebooter only for the wazboms and maybe banner… but evilsuns is still okay for drive by Dakka and maybe the warlord trait if you want a first turn charge warbiker unit.
Speedmob isn’t our most competitive list anymore regardless just take goff pressure.. the new engagement terrain rules only help.
Singleton Mosby wrote: As a longtime Freebootaz player I don't even know how to react. Have never played anything other the them. Man, I loved my Freebootaz.
tulun wrote: In hilarious news, 8" charges are back on the menu.
This won't stick, but hey, Da Jump -> Charge is back BABY
"Page 263 – Obscuring
Change the first sentence of the second paragraph to read: ‘Models that are on or within this terrain feature can see, and can be seen and targeted normally.’
Add the following to the end of this terrain trait:
‘While a model is within 1" of an Area Terrain feature with this trait (e.g. Ruins) and the shortest line between it and an enemy model crosses over or through this terrain feature, then while those models are within 2" horizontally and 5" vertically of each other, they are within Engagement Range of each other."
Is this true? Awesome.
Well i am Goff for life now. I am painting black and white my minis.
Soooo freebooters is essentially the old bad moons trait but worse right?
I guess this dosent really affect speedmob AOR lists that much. But regular freebootas won't like that much.
Guess GW really wants us to run more infantry. Shame they didn't give the free wargear treatment to nobz units though. It'd be fun to just give them a host of gear. Not super powerful IMO as meganobz get the standard gear of klaw and shoota with a 2+ on top. But it'd be fun to have some tooled up squishy lads running around causing havoc.
I'm guessing that the Freeboota nerf was either something that got drafted ages ago and was included by mistake, or it's down to the FAQs being 6 months behind and this is the late response to Freeboota Jet spam.
Either way, hopefully it gets amended soon enough.
They won’t amend it. They are full on working on 10th edition.
Regarding the 8in charge that really only works if your opponent only places thier units within 1in of ruins I thought. If your opponent places then back 1.5-2in you still need 9in.
Is this enough now to include weirdboy in goff lists?
Oh no. the FAQ also mentions that if you count as stationary and advance (like our speed mob) you still fail your action. So you cant advance speed mob bikers anymore and do Good Bits.
So you would have to drive there instead and keep the 6++ while doing actions.
Damn, they destroyed my army. Freebooterz were good not only for the trait but also for the statagem and the relic. Now that they have a bad trait they don't worth it, Bad Moons have a slightly better trait and a useful stratagem but nothing relevant. Blood Axes can be a solid alternative for vehicles based lists but I'm not a fan of their tricks and I don't like using supplements. I'm not a fan of deathskulls builds as well. Guess I have to turn to goffs at this point, probably getting Ghaz to give some purpose to vehicles at least.
Jidmah wrote: So, GW is back to the usual nerfing everything ork into the ground until nothing but boyz are playable?
Boyz are still a very sub-par unit. They're not too horrible as a min troop tax now, so, that's a huge win, I guess.
Anyway, with free mek jobs, I really want to try burnas. Just 2 pts over shootaboyz but can actually shoot and are better than choppaboyz vs armor of contempt in mellee. Also, have an optional ap2 which is ok for a couple more wounds going through.
Fun fact: a 150pt squad can deal up to 168 wounds half of which are MW. You just need to be goff and roll 168 6-s and that's all.
I'll try running some next game and see how it goes. Not expecting much, but it's nice to get eager for something 40k again once in a while!
As for freebootas, my optimistic guess is that they're preparing for 10th where we might not need that +1 to hit. My realistic guess is that they nerf the list that's allready been nerfed 5 times cause it happened to place high a bunch of times when it was still at it's prime.
In the interests of making a silk purse from a sows ear, does the freeboota trait still have any legs in a KMB spam army?
If you bring all the guns that do big damage but explode on a 1, then I imagine rerolling all ones once something dies could be a pretty good option.
Not sure of the points but off the top of my head you could have 9 dreads with 4, 3 units of lootas with 3 meks each, and shokkjump dragstas, for a whole host of not-so-suicidal-any-more shooting?
some bloke wrote: In the interests of making a silk purse from a sows ear, does the freeboota trait still have any legs in a KMB spam army?
If you bring all the guns that do big damage but explode on a 1, then I imagine rerolling all ones once something dies could be a pretty good option.
Not sure of the points but off the top of my head you could have 9 dreads with 4, 3 units of lootas with 3 meks each, and shokkjump dragstas, for a whole host of not-so-suicidal-any-more shooting?
It still relies on killing units though. I would imagine the Deffskulls rerolls would be better in a KMB spam list.
I might be wrong though, it all depends on how easily you get that initial kill.
Not sure freebootas are even an option right now. Not only the traits are hard to get vs a number of armies, it's also very sub-par.
If you want stooting in a small game go deffsculls. Obsec for your infantry is nice, opens up effective mini meks and solo vehicles are getting better. Extra save vs mortals that are pretty common arm, is also neat. Nice clan overall.
Still don't think bad moons are worth it. Maybe if you have a certain plan going on - like when you NEED that extra 6" for your heavies and dakka weapons. I just don't see it being worth it.
Overall, I think that if you're running shooty buggies like skrapjets, squigbuggies (once again an option if taken solo cause of free mek jobs), koptas and things like that, you're better off as Goffs. Especially in larger games where you run makari+ghaz fnp. Jets also deal almost half of their damage in mellee, so, why not.
I might be wrong though, it all depends on how easily you get that initial kill.
Sometimes it is quite easy, sometimes it's extremely hard. On average it's not so easy but if you had 1500 points of stuff that could benefit from the trait, on average the army's shooting was going to be significantly improved. Now it's a minor buff, and also a tedious one.
Beardedragon wrote: Oh no. the FAQ also mentions that if you count as stationary and advance (like our speed mob) you still fail your action. So you cant advance speed mob bikers anymore and do Good Bits.
So you would have to drive there instead and keep the 6++ while doing actions.
So another nerf for speed mobs.
No you are wrong. Fortunately. This is the old jacket. Discussed half year ago. The point is speedmob is “advance and no penalties”. This FAQ aims to “advance and count as remain stationary”. So this is something totaly different.
And nerf to Freebootas hits the speedmob. Despite the fact a lot of people play speedmob as Blood Axe, almost non of such lists used to be in top. All top lists was freebootas.
But doesnt matter. I don ´t understand why they do such changes in FAQ. such think should be in Dataslate. This is a mess.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I ´m interested what will appear in the official app. That will be another mess.
Brw the new rule about the terrain seems to be the source of really big issues:
Also if youre in a terrain feature on the side without a wall (so in the base of the feature) you can charge, fight since your within 2" engagement range as there is a peice of terrain between the two units, pile in 0.2" so there is no terrain between the two units and a distance of 1-1.7" between the two units, your opponent then cant fight back.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I have a feeling that last Dataslate and Nephilin is a work of group of pretty fine game designers doing their job pretty well. So - keep up to the standard - GW hired a bunch of monkeys from the ZOO to make a FAQ.
Beardedragon wrote: Oh no. the FAQ also mentions that if you count as stationary and advance (like our speed mob) you still fail your action. So you cant advance speed mob bikers anymore and do Good Bits.
So you would have to drive there instead and keep the 6++ while doing actions.
So another nerf for speed mobs.
No you are wrong. Fortunately. This is the old jacket. Discussed half year ago. The point is speedmob is “advance and no penalties”. This FAQ aims to “advance and count as remain stationary”. So this is something totaly different.
And nerf to Freebootas hits the speedmob. Despite the fact a lot of people play speedmob as Blood Axe, almost non of such lists used to be in top. All top lists was freebootas.
But doesnt matter. I don ´t understand why they do such changes in FAQ. such think should be in Dataslate. This is a mess.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I ´m interested what will appear in the official app. That will be another mess.
Brw the new rule about the terrain seems to be the source of really big issues:
Also if youre in a terrain feature on the side without a wall (so in the base of the feature) you can charge, fight since your within 2" engagement range as there is a peice of terrain between the two units, pile in 0.2" so there is no terrain between the two units and a distance of 1-1.7" between the two units, your opponent then cant fight back.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I have a feeling that last Dataslate and Nephilin is a work of group of pretty fine game designers doing their job pretty well. So - keep up to the standard - GW hired a bunch of monkeys from the ZOO to make a FAQ.
I don't see an advantage over just running deff skulls. The chances of rolling multiple ones is low already, and you get another chance of saving those mortals with lucky blue paint.
I dunno, if +1 to hit and wound (effectively) and all of the character support Orks really get isn't enough to make you run Goffs, nothing will.
It's pretty clear Orks is Codex: Goffs. Heck, even the shooty vehicle build has benefits with Goffs now because of Great Waaaagh! and Makari giving FNPs to vehicles.
Orks is a mono clan book with the tools they've given us.
tulun wrote: I dunno, if +1 to hit and wound (effectively) and all of the character support Orks really get isn't enough to make you run Goffs, nothing will.
It's pretty clear Orks is Codex: Goffs. Heck, even the shooty vehicle build has benefits with Goffs now because of Great Waaaagh! and Makari giving FNPs to vehicles.
Orks is a mono clan book with the tools they've given us.
Yeah, its kinda sad how far behind all the other klanz are when it comes to being able to provide meaningful offense. Evil Sunz got hit hard with their nerf to mobility trait and dakka weapon changes make them pretty bad barring using their strat. Bad Moonz got worse in a post AoC world and even before that it was outdone by Freebootas and their strat/relic were pretty meh at best. Deffskullz (understandably) got their all around utility toned down a bit but their strat and relic aren't great. Snakebitez trait actually made them even more niche and situational than their old 6+ FNP trait did. Freebootas were okay up until the latest FAQ.
It's disheartening that somehow our last codex was much more klan diverse when it came to viable mono-klan builds.
Goffs won a lot this season due to the cp changes making named characters better value. However ghaz is still expensive… he’s great but it’s a big chunk…
I keep playing with lists and Free kustom jobs are making some interesting choices on new units being viable. I use to like double killrigs but after I take a Killrig w shokka hull… that cheaper battlewagon w forktress is nice… for the cost… a runtsucka shokk atk gun isn’t horribly overpriced anymore.. As stated zagstrukk is great w new Waagh and a weirdboy w dajump is a lot more viable w 8in charges into ruins…(I’m not exactly sure what single core unit is strong enough in melee to do this…. Meganobs?). A single squigbuggy is decent as is a single Snazzwagon. The free kustom jobs opens up more variety in goff lists..
But ya it’s goff or bloodaxe and that’s about it… U can play around w evilsun speedwagh for the strat or deffskulls But neither of those are optimal.
koooaei wrote: Anyway, with free mek jobs, I really want to try burnas. Just 2 pts over shootaboyz but can actually shoot and are better than choppaboyz vs armor of contempt in mellee. Also, have an optional ap2 which is ok for a couple more wounds going through.
Fun fact: a 150pt squad can deal up to 168 wounds half of which are MW. You just need to be goff and roll 168 6-s and that's all.
I'll try running some next game and see how it goes. Not expecting much, but it's nice to get eager for something 40k again once in a while!
I've had some games with just running units of 10 burnas up the field and they work a lot better than expected. Be careful with the zapkrumpas though, you either need to hide them or have an inconspicuous unit of gretchin nearby for an emergency grot shield.
In general the extra mortal wounds are nice, but not that reliable - if you rely on them and roll no sixes, your unit tends to be dead.
koooaei wrote: Anyway, with free mek jobs, I really want to try burnas. Just 2 pts over shootaboyz but can actually shoot and are better than choppaboyz vs armor of contempt in mellee. Also, have an optional ap2 which is ok for a couple more wounds going through.
Fun fact: a 150pt squad can deal up to 168 wounds half of which are MW. You just need to be goff and roll 168 6-s and that's all.
I'll try running some next game and see how it goes. Not expecting much, but it's nice to get eager for something 40k again once in a while!
I've had some games with just running units of 10 burnas up the field and they work a lot better than expected. Be careful with the zapkrumpas though, you either need to hide them or have an inconspicuous unit of gretchin nearby for an emergency grot shield.
In general the extra mortal wounds are nice, but not that reliable - if you rely on them and roll no sixes, your unit tends to be dead.
I'm guessing with zapkrumpas that you just take them as regular Goffs in your list, correct? I was wondering if there was ever a point of upgrading burna boyz to being a pyromaniacs subkultur since I think someone did the math and the extra hits you get from it aren't worth swapping out your kultur if I remember correctly.
Essentially burna boyz are my shoota boyz and beast snaggas are my choppa boyz.
Burna boyz often die without shooting once, so there is no real gain from using pyromaniacs in that regard - on the flip side making them specialist means I can no longer use them for Got 'em trapped or gloryboyz, and they don't benefit from my Waaagh! banner or warboss anymore.
Taktical awareness also is hilarious on them - if they are performing an action and someone lines up a charge, you can pop the stratagem (hopefully discounted) and then fire overwatch at them without your action failing.
If I use my specialist mob at all, it's usually either 'orrible gits or mad boyz squighog riders (only if not running a beastboss).
I dunno. My specialist mob is still being used on Trukkboyz who now get +1S on the charge from WAAAGH which makes them almost as good as Goff boyz before.
Playing around with my for fun list I brought in a weirdboy for giggles. He had Fist and Warpath. I cast warpath on the unit of trukkboyz and had them up to 5 attacks each during a WAAAGH turn, So i had 45 S5 attacks and 7 attacks at S6 on my double choppa nob. Against IG it was one thing, but even against AoC Marines it averages almost 4 dead Marines a turn...without AoC it was almost 6...
I had been toying with the idea of Da Jumping 30 Orrible gitz into the enemies lines turn 1 and attempting a bum rush charge just for giggles but meh.
SemperMortis wrote: I dunno. My specialist mob is still being used on Trukkboyz who now get +1S on the charge from WAAAGH which makes them almost as good as Goff boyz before.
Playing around with my for fun list I brought in a weirdboy for giggles. He had Fist and Warpath. I cast warpath on the unit of trukkboyz and had them up to 5 attacks each during a WAAAGH turn, So i had 45 S5 attacks and 7 attacks at S6 on my double choppa nob. Against IG it was one thing, but even against AoC Marines it averages almost 4 dead Marines a turn...without AoC it was almost 6...
I had been toying with the idea of Da Jumping 30 Orrible gitz into the enemies lines turn 1 and attempting a bum rush charge just for giggles but meh.
You can't da jump orrible gitz because its <clan> core locked. Runtherders (which are now solidly in my list to allow for t1 Get the good bitz) are also clan locked.
SemperMortis wrote: I dunno. My specialist mob is still being used on Trukkboyz who now get +1S on the charge from WAAAGH which makes them almost as good as Goff boyz before.
Playing around with my for fun list I brought in a weirdboy for giggles. He had Fist and Warpath. I cast warpath on the unit of trukkboyz and had them up to 5 attacks each during a WAAAGH turn, So i had 45 S5 attacks and 7 attacks at S6 on my double choppa nob. Against IG it was one thing, but even against AoC Marines it averages almost 4 dead Marines a turn...without AoC it was almost 6...
I had been toying with the idea of Da Jumping 30 Orrible gitz into the enemies lines turn 1 and attempting a bum rush charge just for giggles but meh.
Oh, in a speed waaagh, I absolutely bring trukk boyz. They just don't have a place in my bloodaxe horde. In that army I prefer to pay 10 points to upgrade them to beastsnaggas rather than paying 70 to get a trukk.
I tried the bum rush 'orrible gitz strategy twice now (mind you, with runtherd, not weird boy), but I don't think it's worth the 120 points despite being very satisfying to pull off.
Egh I still don’t want to waste points on a runtherder nor provide the free assasinate points…
With the kustom job changes I think dropping a Killrig for a forktress battlewagon is better. And I can have the grots on the battlewagon for first turn protection and then disembark and move for a better goodbits movement.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/805707.page#11387324
gungo wrote: Egh I still don’t want to waste points on a runtherder nor provide the free assasinate points…
With the kustom job changes I think dropping a Killrig for a forktress battlewagon is better. And I can have the grots on the battlewagon for first turn protection and then disembark and move for a better goodbits movement.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/805707.page#11387324
6 out of the 9 missions have objectives 12" away from your deployment zone. 2 of these have no objectives within 12". 3" boost from a vehicle and the grots 5" isn't enough to get your Gretchen doing max get the good bits T1. If you're serious about getting the max vp early you need the herders. They do give up assassinate to be sure but only if they get caught .
gungo wrote: Egh I still don’t want to waste points on a runtherder nor provide the free assasinate points…
With the kustom job changes I think dropping a Killrig for a forktress battlewagon is better. And I can have the grots on the battlewagon for first turn protection and then disembark and move for a better goodbits movement.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/805707.page#11387324
My own truck born grots each now include a Runtherd.
This allows the grots to deploy outside thier truck at the start of Nephlim based games (not all of our games are matched nor Nephim etc) - depending upon secondaries etc chosen.
The runtherd just chills in the passenger seat, holding down that turn 1 Deadmans switch
CaptainO wrote: Runtherd will have to be outside the vehicle for the turn the grots are. Otherwise the won't get his +1"
My Grots don't want or need his +1". In fact, they want as few actual Orks with them in the list as possible*. They do rely upon their truck(s) for survival though (and to narratively haul away the loot/scrap).
Having their ride spontaneously combust would be very inconvenient....
A truck might well die Turn 1, but it'll only do so because the opponent put the effort into killing it.
So that Runtherds sole job is to keep the damn truck from Turn 1 Nephilim-auto-destructing in the event that I decide the grots should start the game deployed on the ground for some reason - in a Matched Game.
That's it, that's the only reason I'm spending pts on him. Any further use he can serve later is a bonus.
*Before this Nephilim crap? I only ran 1 actual ork model (WB in MA) - because 1) in Crusade I'm not allowed, by the Codex rules, to lead the force with a Named Character. Guess what the only two Grot characters are? And 2) because there's only two Grot characters in the HQ slots, without an actual Ork character I can't run a 3rd detachment.
Any other ork? Is just a vehicle driver/pilot.
Nephilim and crusade are separate mission packs and neither impact the other.
Dedicated transports do not self-destruct in any other game mode than War Zone Nephilim: Grand Tournament - even BRB matched play and tempest of war are safe.
At this point, I'd also like to dust off one of the most ancient rules of this thread - if people are clearly are looking for advice for their Nephilim games, casual gaming advice is unlikely to help them.
gungo wrote: Egh I still don’t want to waste points on a runtherder nor provide the free assasinate points… With the kustom job changes I think dropping a Killrig for a forktress battlewagon is better. And I can have the grots on the battlewagon for first turn protection and then disembark and move for a better goodbits movement. https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/805707.page#11387324
6 out of the 9 missions have objectives 12" away from your deployment zone. 2 of these have no objectives within 12". 3" boost from a vehicle and the grots 5" isn't enough to get your Gretchen doing max get the good bits T1. If you're serious about getting the max vp early you need the herders. They do give up assassinate to be sure but only if they get caught .
maybe im dense but how would a runtherd help you here?
If theres 12 inches to the nearest objective, grots move 5, +3 from disembarking a trukk, +1 from grot lash runtherd, which equals 9" movement. You still wouldnt reach an objective 12 inches away? You cant advance and use actions unless you play blood axes.
Unless you mean that the center is 12 inches away and not the objective edge. If you meant the center, wouldnt we still be 0,1 inch away?
Since objective markers sould be 40mm in diameter and you need to be within 3" of the Marker ( not the center of the marker!), you will need slightly more than an 8" move to get into control range of an objective that is placed 12" from the deployment zones (12" - 20 mm (radius of the marker) - 3")
Good morning! Now I see it. The nerf to freebootas is unfortunately intentional. Because otherwise it stacks with this new rule and makes you zooming around the table with open top battlewagons full of tankbustas hitting on 4+… 45 D3 shots = 45 hits 8/-2/3 = big knight down pretty easy.
Tomsug wrote: Good morning! Now I see it. The nerf to freebootas is unfortunately intentional. Because otherwise it stacks with this new rule and makes you zooming around the table with open top battlewagons full of tankbustas hitting on 4+… 45 D3 shots = 45 hits 8/-2/3 = big knight down pretty easy.
/ my speculation
what new rule? A +1 to hit to vehicles always gave +1 to hit to embarked units, even if the transport didnt transfer it (which it did anyway). because embarked units are and always (at least in 9th) were affected by own detatchment rules.
So tankbustas in a vehicle would still get +1 to hit from freebootas before. The only reason i see to them updating that FAQ for embarked units was because people had issues with what a modification to dice is, and wanted to give AP to embarked units in a transport.
Now its just down to hit rolls, wound rolls and for some reason, damage rolls.
Tomsug wrote: Good morning! Now I see it. The nerf to freebootas is unfortunately intentional. Because otherwise it stacks with this new rule and makes you zooming around the table with open top battlewagons full of tankbustas hitting on 4+… 45 D3 shots = 45 hits 8/-2/3 = big knight down pretty easy.
/ my speculation
That was possible from the get go and never really worked well - 1035 points killing a big knight after killing another one on the same turn first isn't gamebreaking, it's just bad.
But is the combo of having a trukk, grots and a runtherd worth the strategy of being able to get 3 points (or 5 points if you do this with 2 trukks, 2 runtherds and 20 grots) by turn 1 worth that investment?
I mean you dont "need" to get good bits by turn 1 to max it, and it is a bit of an investment i would say.
Although one could make the argument that once the grots depart from the trukk the trukk could be used to house someone else. Like burna boys or trukkboys. But that would leave those units unprotected meanwhile. And one already is buying at least 20 grots these days, i know i am.
gungo wrote: Egh I still don’t want to waste points on a runtherder nor provide the free assasinate points…
With the kustom job changes I think dropping a Killrig for a forktress battlewagon is better. And I can have the grots on the battlewagon for first turn protection and then disembark and move for a better goodbits movement.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/805707.page#11387324
6 out of the 9 missions have objectives 12" away from your deployment zone. 2 of these have no objectives within 12". 3" boost from a vehicle and the grots 5" isn't enough to get your Gretchen doing max get the good bits T1. If you're serious about getting the max vp early you need the herders. They do give up assassinate to be sure but only if they get caught .
maybe im dense but how would a runtherd help you here?
If theres 12 inches to the nearest objective, grots move 5, +3 from disembarking a trukk, +1 from grot lash runtherd, which equals 9" movement. You still wouldnt reach an objective 12 inches away? You cant advance and use actions unless you play blood axes.
Unless you mean that the center is 12 inches away and not the objective edge. If you meant the center, wouldnt we still be 0,1 inch away?
That runtherder annoys me enough to change klan to bloodaxe..
He just adds so little to the list and gives up vps easily…
I just got to play it and see how bad is it dropping goff to bloodaxe…
I gain command points, a Strats to more easily obtain objectives, and a small amount of first turn durability, but I lose offensive potential by dropping from str7/8 on charge to str 6/7 on all infantry plus exploding 6s.. kommandos in terrain and beastsnaggas into vehicle/monsters slightly offset this loss with +1 to wound.
i changed the above list to bloodaxe to play the mission game much easier. Tactical awareness is good enough for get the good bits or counter playing your opponent if they are playing banners.
95pts of free kustom jobs also gives you a bunch of fun models to play with.
gungo wrote: Egh I still don’t want to waste points on a runtherder nor provide the free assasinate points…
With the kustom job changes I think dropping a Killrig for a forktress battlewagon is better. And I can have the grots on the battlewagon for first turn protection and then disembark and move for a better goodbits movement.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/805707.page#11387324
6 out of the 9 missions have objectives 12" away from your deployment zone. 2 of these have no objectives within 12". 3" boost from a vehicle and the grots 5" isn't enough to get your Gretchen doing max get the good bits T1. If you're serious about getting the max vp early you need the herders. They do give up assassinate to be sure but only if they get caught .
maybe im dense but how would a runtherd help you here?
If theres 12 inches to the nearest objective, grots move 5, +3 from disembarking a trukk, +1 from grot lash runtherd, which equals 9" movement. You still wouldnt reach an objective 12 inches away? You cant advance and use actions unless you play blood axes.
Unless you mean that the center is 12 inches away and not the objective edge. If you meant the center, wouldnt we still be 0,1 inch away?
That runtherder annoys me enough to change klan to bloodaxe..
He just adds so little to the list and gives up vps easily…
I just got to play it and see how bad is it dropping goff to bloodaxe…
I gain command points, a Strats to more easily obtain objectives, and a small amount of first turn durability, but I lose offensive potential by dropping from str7/8 on charge to str 6/7 on all infantry plus exploding 6s..
i changed the above list to bloodaxe to play the mission game much easier. Tactical awareness is good enough for get the good bits or counter playing your opponent if they are playing banners.
95pts of free kustom jobs also gives you a bunch of fun models to play with.
Yea. I havent tried the Runtherder yet, nor have i tried the new warzone at all either. Ill be playing some goff for now. Out the back of my head i dont see that it should be an issue that i dont get 3/5 points turn 1 from good bits. Starting off from turn 2 seems fine with me.
gungo wrote: Egh I still don’t want to waste points on a runtherder nor provide the free assasinate points…
With the kustom job changes I think dropping a Killrig for a forktress battlewagon is better. And I can have the grots on the battlewagon for first turn protection and then disembark and move for a better goodbits movement.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/805707.page#11387324
6 out of the 9 missions have objectives 12" away from your deployment zone. 2 of these have no objectives within 12". 3" boost from a vehicle and the grots 5" isn't enough to get your Gretchen doing max get the good bits T1. If you're serious about getting the max vp early you need the herders. They do give up assassinate to be sure but only if they get caught .
maybe im dense but how would a runtherd help you here?
If theres 12 inches to the nearest objective, grots move 5, +3 from disembarking a trukk, +1 from grot lash runtherd, which equals 9" movement. You still wouldnt reach an objective 12 inches away? You cant advance and use actions unless you play blood axes.
Unless you mean that the center is 12 inches away and not the objective edge. If you meant the center, wouldnt we still be 0,1 inch away?
As Bossdoc explained the size of the objective marker (20 mm/0.787") radius and the fact the objective "zone" is measured 3" from the edge of the marker means that the grots 8" will not make it onto the zone (you'll be 0.213" away from the zone) but the extra 1" from the herder will get you into scoring range.
I for one am building my list so I can take GTGB every Nephilim game, have the option of either greentide or engage and have the option of psychic secondaries. I understand that a lot of people are just going to wait until t2 to start scoring GTGB but you're then running the risk of your grots especially being picked up.
gungo wrote: Egh I still don’t want to waste points on a runtherder nor provide the free assasinate points…
With the kustom job changes I think dropping a Killrig for a forktress battlewagon is better. And I can have the grots on the battlewagon for first turn protection and then disembark and move for a better goodbits movement.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/805707.page#11387324
6 out of the 9 missions have objectives 12" away from your deployment zone. 2 of these have no objectives within 12". 3" boost from a vehicle and the grots 5" isn't enough to get your Gretchen doing max get the good bits T1. If you're serious about getting the max vp early you need the herders. They do give up assassinate to be sure but only if they get caught .
maybe im dense but how would a runtherd help you here?
If theres 12 inches to the nearest objective, grots move 5, +3 from disembarking a trukk, +1 from grot lash runtherd, which equals 9" movement. You still wouldnt reach an objective 12 inches away? You cant advance and use actions unless you play blood axes.
Unless you mean that the center is 12 inches away and not the objective edge. If you meant the center, wouldnt we still be 0,1 inch away?
As Bossdoc explained the size of the objective marker (20 mm/0.787") radius and the fact the objective "zone" is measured 3" from the edge of the marker means that the grots 8" will not make it onto the zone (you'll be 0.213" away from the zone) but the extra 1" from the herder will get you into scoring range.
I for one am building my list so I can take GTGB every Nephilim game, have the option of either greentide or engage and have the option of psychic secondaries. I understand that a lot of people are just going to wait until t2 to start scoring GTGB but you're then running the risk of your grots especially being picked up.
Tactical awareness- blood axe strat- Gretchin can advance and still perform actions…
This means I have a greater movement range then using the runtherder..
3in disembark, 5in movement , and d6 advance. Means grots have a movement of 9-14in.. more then the runtherder. No need to worrry about runtherder being in range and odds are being able to advance and do an action will come up at least once more in during the game. The above army list is just meant to play the mission game but kustom jobs do provide fun units to play with now.. particularly deepstriking klawdreads that only need 8in into ruin charges.
Tactical awareness- blood axe strat- Gretchin can advance and still perform actions…
This means I have a greater movement range then using the runtherder..
3in disembark, 5in movement , and d6 advance. Means grots have a movement of 9-14in.. more then the runtherder. No need to worrry about runtherder being in range and odds are being able to advance and do an action will come up at least once more in during the game. The above army list is just meant to play the mission game but kustom jobs do provide fun units to play with now.. particularly deepstriking klawdreads that only need 8in into ruin charges.
Can't do this, sadly.
You have to use the stratagem at the start of *any phase*. The grots will be in the truck then.
So they gotta run only, no truck if you wanna do this. they'll only go farther on a 4+ or 3+ with herder.
Tactical awareness- blood axe strat- Gretchin can advance and still perform actions…
This means I have a greater movement range then using the runtherder..
3in disembark, 5in movement , and d6 advance. Means grots have a movement of 9-14in.. more then the runtherder. No need to worrry about runtherder being in range and odds are being able to advance and do an action will come up at least once more in during the game. The above army list is just meant to play the mission game but kustom jobs do provide fun units to play with now.. particularly deepstriking klawdreads that only need 8in into ruin charges.
Can't do this, sadly.
You have to use the stratagem at the start of *any phase*. The grots will be in the truck then.
So they gotta run only, no truck if you wanna do this. they'll only go farther on a 4+ or 3+ with herder.
Tactical awareness- blood axe strat- Gretchin can advance and still perform actions…
This means I have a greater movement range then using the runtherder..
3in disembark, 5in movement , and d6 advance. Means grots have a movement of 9-14in.. more then the runtherder. No need to worrry about runtherder being in range and odds are being able to advance and do an action will come up at least once more in during the game. The above army list is just meant to play the mission game but kustom jobs do provide fun units to play with now.. particularly deepstriking klawdreads that only need 8in into ruin charges.
Can't do this, sadly.
You have to use the stratagem at the start of *any phase*. The grots will be in the truck then.
So they gotta run only, no truck if you wanna do this. they'll only go farther on a 4+ or 3+ with herder.
Why can’t you use this during your command phase (any phase).
Movement phase- disembark and move/advance…
End of movement start get good bits..
The strat lasts until end of turn it doesn’t matter when you use it.
You can't select a unit in a transport for any stratagem. It's a core book rule.
You can still get a truck full of 10 tankbustas hitting on 4s if you put a trulkboy warboss in with them.
I'm putting my big mek in mega armour into my trukkboyz trukk after he pops his off so he'll be hitting on 3s with his d3+1 shot mega blasta (although this requires the trukk to still be alive and some trukkboyz to be alive and in the vehicle)
Wait a minute…
Why won’t disembark 3in, movement 5in be in range of an objective that’s 3.757 from center…
Even if you use the 7.5in objective range markers it will work.
Disembark is wholly within, its part of the several reasons why transports suck balls right now. They hard neutered transports from... well.. transporting things for whatever reason.
edit: its also why theres a faq about disembarking models with bases bigger than 3" because Necrons had that problem initially where Szeras could not legally get out of a Nightscythe lol
gungo wrote: Wait a minute…
Why won’t disembark 3in, movement 5in be in range of an objective that’s 3.757 from center…
Even if you use the 7.5in objective range markers it will work.
Am I wrong?
Afraid so dude. Because you deploy wholey within 3" (unless you like to live dangerously and put ghaz in a wagon) you'll still be minimum 4" away from any "centre" objectives (objectives that start 12" away) if you move 5" after disembarking.
I can totally see why people might not be fussed about get 5vp t1 but the main weakness I found for orks post nephilimis is their longevity so it makes sense to me to grab as many secondary VP early before we get wiped from the board.
gungo wrote: Thanks for the help guys.. no way around that runtherder (can’t even use zodgrod as he doesn’t have the lash)
Just take banners and don't bother.
Naw it’s doable just need runtherder… outside of tabling the list on turn 3 you will max get the good bits if setup correctly… it also ties in well with engage while you don’t need to worry as much about controlling the objective.. so you can block your opponents objectives instead.
Btw what prevents me from adding squighide tires or shokkahull to a mekgun? It’s an “orks””vehicle”….
Nothing prevents you from putting those on a Mekgun other than...why?
Squighide tires doesnt really do much and a mekgun realistically wont ever see melee for shokkahull.
gungo wrote: Thanks for the help guys.. no way around that runtherder (can’t even use zodgrod as he doesn’t have the lash)
Just take banners and don't bother.
Naw it’s doable just need runtherder… outside of tabling the list on turn 3 you will max get the good bits if setup correctly… it also ties in well with engage while you don’t need to worry as much about controlling the objective.. so you can block your opponents objectives instead.
Btw what prevents me from adding squighide tires or shokkahull to a mekgun? It’s an “orks””vehicle”….
Ya not having to worry about a secondary after t3 is lovely.
Interesting with the Mekgun. Literally never occured to me. You might as well throw them on for free if you've no other more deserving vehicles (which would be any vehicle really). Squighide tires is probably the more useful as it gives the gun a better chance of popping out from behind obscuring.
Tactical awareness- blood axe strat- Gretchin can advance and still perform actions… This means I have a greater movement range then using the runtherder.. 3in disembark, 5in movement , and d6 advance. Means grots have a movement of 9-14in.. more then the runtherder. No need to worrry about runtherder being in range and odds are being able to advance and do an action will come up at least once more in during the game. The above army list is just meant to play the mission game but kustom jobs do provide fun units to play with now.. particularly deepstriking klawdreads that only need 8in into ruin charges.
Can't do this, sadly.
You have to use the stratagem at the start of *any phase*. The grots will be in the truck then.
So they gotta run only, no truck if you wanna do this. they'll only go farther on a 4+ or 3+ with herder.
oh yea. good find. thats sad.
But does that mean you guys are making your new goff lists with 2x trukks and 2x runtherds for those 20 grots? If you dont use the trukks for anything else afterwards its a high cost for just good bits turn 1 to max it at 5. Or do you go for only 1 trukk and runtherder for only 3 points turn 1?
Regardless anyway, my newer goff lists certainly have 20-30 grots in them to sit in the back and do things like good bits while hopefully being hidden.
Bossdoc wrote: No, vehicle kustoms jobs can never be given to models in a squad. Only single vehicles.
I had no idea about that. That's disappointing, buggies and dreads would have loved some kustom jobs now that they are free but have to be solo units then, which is kinda bad considering the lack of slots we currently struggle with.
I'm thinking of ditching trukks cause of extra free VP for being it down. The list must not just grant 15 VP that easilly.
Wagon, 4 buggies, 3 koptas, a couple mek guns, deff dread with pistons, ghaz - that's allready close to 15. Now a trukk is just giving up VP too easilly, but I have a bunch of meganobz that I'm not sure how to use properly w/o a trukk. Seems that I'll either have to get rid of koptas or manz missile. That's a shame.
Or, if a wagon doesn't show it's value, get rid of it. Currently, I plan on using open topped echeap wagon with tires for burnas it's gonna be around 210 pts which seems legit for such a unit. Won't be doing much but hard enough to be sent on a flank to terrorize some chaff off an objective. Maybe a deffrolla could be useful in this role.
The thing with tires is that it opens up t1 possibilities, which is ok. But both sholla hull and 5++ could be useful in the long run for this role.
The thing is that forktress is not that great when you roll a wagon midfield under kff and waagh, but is great on a flank. Tires, on the other hand, make your burnas much more reliable t1 and help with degrading tables.
Tactical awareness- blood axe strat- Gretchin can advance and still perform actions…
This means I have a greater movement range then using the runtherder..
3in disembark, 5in movement , and d6 advance. Means grots have a movement of 9-14in.. more then the runtherder. No need to worrry about runtherder being in range and odds are being able to advance and do an action will come up at least once more in during the game. The above army list is just meant to play the mission game but kustom jobs do provide fun units to play with now.. particularly deepstriking klawdreads that only need 8in into ruin charges.
Can't do this, sadly.
You have to use the stratagem at the start of *any phase*. The grots will be in the truck then.
So they gotta run only, no truck if you wanna do this. they'll only go farther on a 4+ or 3+ with herder.
oh yea. good find. thats sad.
But does that mean you guys are making your new goff lists with 2x trukks and 2x runtherds for those 20 grots? If you dont use the trukks for anything else afterwards its a high cost for just good bits turn 1 to max it at 5. Or do you go for only 1 trukk and runtherder for only 3 points turn 1?
Regardless anyway, my newer goff lists certainly have 20-30 grots in them to sit in the back and do things like good bits while hopefully being hidden.
20-30 grots is a good number. Bear in mind you won't be able to sit back with the grots if you want to do GTGB as that only works on the objectives in no man's land.
The main reason I like 5cp for T1 gtgb is that it causes my opponent to focus on 3x 40 point units rather than the 60 orks, ghaz and a few character running right at them.
I'm running two ard top battlewagons and a trukkboy trukk for protection and to give the grots +3".
TedNugent wrote: I was thinking - is a footslogging horde of MSU a stupid idea right now considering the new WAAAGH (e.g. army wide 5++ for a turn and +1 S)?
Reason being, I don't know if Goff is needed as much if you can get S5 for two turns.
I know they nerfed Evil Suns, but that's still +2" a turn. I can't imagine walking 8.5" a turn, but 10.5" is more believable.
I think the problem of MSU green tide, even with Evil Sunz, is that it doesn't really have the hitting power needed to do anything. All they need to is to chip a few bodies off and morale does the rest and with AoC, S5 AP0 attacks, even with 3-4 attacks a model, doesn't really do that much offensively speaking. I guess you could try trapping them in deployment early on with kommandos followed with normal infantry afterwards, but I think Goff Pressure still does that job better.
Just shows how bad the Kustom jobs were that the idea of giving 3 models the "kustom Job" for their listed points cost was still a bridge too far for people And now that they are free they are auto-takes but realistically only provide a minor buff.
SemperMortis wrote: Just shows how bad the Kustom jobs were that the idea of giving 3 models the "kustom Job" for their listed points cost was still a bridge too far for people And now that they are free they are auto-takes but realistically only provide a minor buff.
I'm still in mourning over the loss of ZagZapp, it felt like a test run for a potential new standard profile for zzap guns. Instead they used a similar profile for a gun exclusive to a vehicle I have no interest in running.
Tactical awareness- blood axe strat- Gretchin can advance and still perform actions…
This means I have a greater movement range then using the runtherder..
3in disembark, 5in movement , and d6 advance. Means grots have a movement of 9-14in.. more then the runtherder. No need to worrry about runtherder being in range and odds are being able to advance and do an action will come up at least once more in during the game. The above army list is just meant to play the mission game but kustom jobs do provide fun units to play with now.. particularly deepstriking klawdreads that only need 8in into ruin charges.
Can't do this, sadly.
You have to use the stratagem at the start of *any phase*. The grots will be in the truck then.
So they gotta run only, no truck if you wanna do this. they'll only go farther on a 4+ or 3+ with herder.
oh yea. good find. thats sad.
But does that mean you guys are making your new goff lists with 2x trukks and 2x runtherds for those 20 grots? If you dont use the trukks for anything else afterwards its a high cost for just good bits turn 1 to max it at 5. Or do you go for only 1 trukk and runtherder for only 3 points turn 1?
Regardless anyway, my newer goff lists certainly have 20-30 grots in them to sit in the back and do things like good bits while hopefully being hidden.
It’s primary mission dependant but my list has 1 forktress w deffrolla that can hold 2x grot units…and 1 runtherder… there is usually at least an objective 12in out where I need the wagon disembark and herder and sometimes there is a mission I can also have the Gretchin just move 5/6 inches and reach an objective that’s only 8in out. If the mission has all midboard objectives 12in or further then I’m only getting 1 Gretchin unit in range and using the forktress to protect the other one… and I’ll only get 3 vp this turn but kommandos or squigriders (all core) can reach the objective for turn 2 max points. I don’t think it’s worth giving up assassinate and bring it down to include extra runtherders and trukks.
You can't put 2 squads of gretchins and a runtherd in a wagon, it's 21 bodies minimum while the wagon has a transport capacity of 20. You can bring a mid sized squad of 19 + a runtherd though.
Blackie wrote: You can't put 2 squads of gretchins and a runtherd in a wagon, it's 21 bodies minimum while the wagon has a transport capacity of 20. You can bring a mid sized squad of 19 + a runtherd though.
Runtherder is outside. He doesn’t need to move with the Gretchin only be in range for them to get +1in.
Depending on objectives sometimes I have 2x squads in a forktress, sometimes a squad is outside the forktress. All depends on objectives
Blackie wrote: You can't put 2 squads of gretchins and a runtherd in a wagon, it's 21 bodies minimum while the wagon has a transport capacity of 20. You can bring a mid sized squad of 19 + a runtherd though.
Runtherder is outside. He doesn’t need to move with the Gretchin only be in range for them to get +1in.
Depending on objectives sometimes I have 2x squads in a forktress, sometimes a squad is outside the forktress. All depends on objectives
You could also easily just go old school and put 5 MANz in each wagon. The Grots are there to score VP and soak wounds if the wagon explodes, and the MANz get a delivery system and can bully things away from the objective the Grots want to be on. Then your opponent has to decide whether they want to deal with the cheap thing scoring VP or the more expensive thing trying to stop them from scoring VP.
Blackie wrote: You can't put 2 squads of gretchins and a runtherd in a wagon, it's 21 bodies minimum while the wagon has a transport capacity of 20. You can bring a mid sized squad of 19 + a runtherd though.
Runtherder is outside. He doesn’t need to move with the Gretchin only be in range for them to get +1in.
Depending on objectives sometimes I have 2x squads in a forktress, sometimes a squad is outside the forktress. All depends on objectives
You could also easily just go old school and put 5 MANz in each wagon. The Grots are there to score VP and soak wounds if the wagon explodes, and the MANz get a delivery system and can bully things away from the objective the Grots want to be on. Then your opponent has to decide whether they want to deal with the cheap thing scoring VP or the more expensive thing trying to stop them from scoring VP.
Yeah, it's how I play my 1-2 wagons. 5 meganobz + 10 grots in there. But gungo doesn't use his wagon to give something a ride, he uses it to give the gretchins the free extra movement when they disembark.
Blackie wrote: You can't put 2 squads of gretchins and a runtherd in a wagon, it's 21 bodies minimum while the wagon has a transport capacity of 20. You can bring a mid sized squad of 19 + a runtherd though.
Runtherder is outside. He doesn’t need to move with the Gretchin only be in range for them to get +1in.
Depending on objectives sometimes I have 2x squads in a forktress, sometimes a squad is outside the forktress. All depends on objectives
Ya the runtherd can get look out sir from the battlewagon and can start almost behind it as with his 5" move plus advance he can get within 3" of on of the grots for the lash. One thing to note is literally only one grot needs to make the objective to score GTGB. I'm finding that with green tide it benefits to have squads conga lining back so at least some are 6" away from the other board quarters.
Ya I don’t want all the extra bring it down points.. plus a forktress battlewagon w deffrolla is cheap and durable… that’s only 120pts for t7, ramshackle, 3+ 5++ 16w and can do 7x str11 ap-2 2dam @ws2+ (Ard case is +15 pts more and arguably worth it if you have the points)
So even when I have nothing to transport it’s a viable melee threat… without that forktress though it’s a lot easier to kill.
But the fact is the battlewagon is a nice long transport that if placed well is generally able to be in range 2x objectives. It’s better then a trukk as transport for this purpose. And if my opponent blows it up first turn instead thank you for giving me the emergency disembark extra distance instead.
Blackie wrote: You can't put 2 squads of gretchins and a runtherd in a wagon, it's 21 bodies minimum while the wagon has a transport capacity of 20. You can bring a mid sized squad of 19 + a runtherd though.
Runtherder is outside. He doesn’t need to move with the Gretchin only be in range for them to get +1in.
Depending on objectives sometimes I have 2x squads in a forktress, sometimes a squad is outside the forktress. All depends on objectives
Ya the runtherd can get look out sir from the battlewagon and can start almost behind it as with his 5" move plus advance he can get within 3" of on of the grots for the lash. One thing to note is literally only one grot needs to make the objective to score GTGB. I'm finding that with green tide it benefits to have squads conga lining back so at least some are 6" away from the other board quarters.
Conga lining is limited in small units with the newer coherency rule.
But ya using this 1 battlewagon/1 runtherder is able to help 2 grot units reach 2 objectives in some missions.. turn 2 is actually easier to max points as I’m not usually fully Waagh and engaged yet so kommandos and squigriders not engaged are scoring.
Tomsug wrote: There is actualy not a big problem with conga line. Two models on the ends and the rest is business as usually.
Be careful with the Battlewagon on 2 objectives. Single MODEL cannot control more then one objective.
Anybody any experience with the new rules already?
No what I mean is the battlewagon with deffrolla has a hull length of 8in long where if placed correctly can allow 2 sets of Gretchin units to disembark and still reach 2 separate objective markers on some missions.
If my opponent decides instead to blow it up first turn then both Gretchin unit can emergency disembark and have an even easier time claiming 2 objectives first turn.
With 1 transport there is only 2 missions you can’t reach 2 objectives with 2 units of grots first turn… data-scry and abandoned sanctuaries however if you place the battlewagon lengthwise and your opponent decides to blow it up with emergency disembark 6in movement you actually can reach 2 objectives (or careen strat if its better)
Tomsug wrote: There is actualy not a big problem with conga line. Two models on the ends and the rest is business as usually.
Be careful with the Battlewagon on 2 objectives. Single MODEL cannot control more then one objective.
Anybody any experience with the new rules already?
Keep in mind how dangerous what you just suggested is. Units of 6+ require the model to be in coherency with 2 other models. A unit of 10 grots with 2 models at the end gets a single pistol shot at it, kills 1 grot. You just lost 5 models because you have to continue to remove models until coherency is re-established. You then fail morale automatically basically, you are below 50% starting strength now and lose 1-2 more. you just lost 70%(ish) of the unit to a pistol.
It is a time to point out few interesting FW units.
MEGA DREADS
1. Mega charge ability = add 1 dice to your charge roll and discrad the lowest. With Ramming speed it is 4 dice roll with free reroll and discard the lowest. It is very propable charge for 12”
2. Rippa Klaw is one of the few sources of nice D3+3 damage. Double klaw version has nice A6 WS 3+ 14/-3/D3+3
However, goff Mega Dread in Waaagh has nice A7 + exploding sixies S16! Small Knight Warglive positively down and even bigger Crusader cannot be sure that he survive!
This + T7 W16 3+ and plus 2D6 12” autohiting 5/0/1 very cool rrrrrrrrrrrrr garlings can be yours for 175p with the free extra option of Shokka Hulk Kustom Job
BIG TRAKK
What Trukk would like to be. Spiked Ram, two twin big shootas, transport of 12 and T6 W12 4+ and! Move 14”! Can be even better with free Squig Tyres.
What is even nore important is his shape. Bigger footprint for better road blocking but very cool racing low profile enable him to duck and hide behind standard containers.
All this can be yours for a bargain! Just 85p in heavy slot!
Tomsug wrote: There is actualy not a big problem with conga line. Two models on the ends and the rest is business as usually.
Be careful with the Battlewagon on 2 objectives. Single MODEL cannot control more then one objective.
Anybody any experience with the new rules already?
Keep in mind how dangerous what you just suggested is. Units of 6+ require the model to be in coherency with 2 other models. A unit of 10 grots with 2 models at the end gets a single pistol shot at it, kills 1 grot. You just lost 5 models because you have to continue to remove models until coherency is re-established. You then fail morale automatically basically, you are below 50% starting strength now and lose 1-2 more. you just lost 70%(ish) of the unit to a pistol.
I know Goffs or bust is kind of the way to go for a lot of lists now besides maybe Blood Axes/Speedmob, but is it ever worth taking Ghazzy in a Supreme Command Detachment for other Klan based armies so we can get the most mileage out of having the most recent buff of regular WAAAGH! + SpeedWAAAGH!?
I'm making a list based around Deffskullz and I feel like having a mix of both might be good even if Ghazzy doesn't directly buff all of my units with his aura since he can work on his own solo fairly well with Makari behind him.
Yes it works and is decent…
He can also work in a bloodaxe speedwaagh it’s only worse then goff pressure since it bleeds bring it down and is low model count.
Grimskull - honestly… I gonna give a try to … FREEBOOTA SPEEDMOB!
Because:
- +1 to hit / reroll of once - I use it just for the Wazbooms with BS4+ (Smaller problem than on 5+) and have a problem to trigger it in half of the games. So this nerf is hard, but not so interesting for me.
- I take freebootas because the Badskull Banner giving me about 10-20VP every game in Nephilin too.
- I start with more CPs turn 1 and that gives me the adventage in CPs over Bloodaxe until T3. The reason? Simple. In Freeboota I pay 1CP for the banner. In Blood Axe I pay 2 CP for trait and relic.
And if you make a game plan, in any case you will not use AOOTS more than 3x. Propably twice. That is no more than 3CP back from trait and in average it is 2CP for the relic. All this for the price of 2CP. So the maximum benefit is about 3CP, propably 2CP. And you gain this benefit in last turns… if you survive.
So I see not so much a point in Blood Axe speed mob… you are basicly gaining CPs you paid before
I think the speedmob is dead but I want to give it a try to see how much
I've just calculated one interesting thing:
Burnas with free m/w upgrade deal more or comparable amount of damage in mellee to meganobz.
If you also factor in their shooting, you end up with 2 times more damage vs meq and close to same vs tougher t7+ targets w/o invuls. If those targets get invuls, burnas become better.
I believe, they're also more durable in the current antitank meta. Especially with new waagh invuls.
I think that the only thing meganobz are better at killing are specifically 3-wound targets without -1 damage and good invuls. But you need a 2cp strat which is not great, especially now when you lack cp and need them elsewhere.
Afrodactyl wrote: So my 40k app updated again today, and Kustom Jobs now have points costs again.
GW is frankly all over the place right now with their rules. They definitely are having trouble keeping up with all the changes they're making and it feels like they're making things up as they go along.
LOL! I go to paint some terrain. This makes no sence. Summer is obviously a time, you cannot play orks at all.
Its too hot to be leading a Waaagh anyway
Grimskul wrote:
GW is frankly all over the place right now with their rules. They definitely are having trouble keeping up with all the changes they're making and it feels like they're making things up as they go along.
I was thinking this was just a mistake from the get go. They accidentally left Kustom Jobs off of the points list. Someone on the app team has either seen this and assumed it means they're free, or maybe they're the only Ork player left on the design team and are trying to push things back in our favour.
Either way, I'm sure we'll get clarification before 11th edition.
The same is true for the -1 to hit rules which are ubiquitous, our shooting units are reduced by 50% against a simple -1 to hit.
As a longtime Freebootaz player I don't even know how to react. Have never played anything other the them. 
Man, I loved my Freebootaz.
