I've played some quick pick up games with my list from a few posts back, made some changes. The games weren't anything spectacular or intense, just some pick up games against a semi-competitive Drukhari list, an Ultramarines one, and a Tyranid one. The Tyranid one absolutely stomped me the first time round, but I did better after making some changes and for knowing the capabilities of the Nids. I'm still getting to grips with the slower speed, having gone from bikes to Squigs, so take my comments with a hefty pinch of salt.
I changed my 2 units of 5 Squighogs for 3 units of 3, and dropped a Snazzwagon. With the adjustments I've lost a little bit of shooting potential, but I'm suffering less traffic jams and I have an extra Bomb Squig. I've now got a total of 9 sources of mortal wound output, 4 of which are reusable (Squigboss, MSJs and Smasha Squigs).
I've also managed to squeeze in Boss Zagstruk with the adjusted points, leaning fully into CP-less herohammer. Zagstruk, a Killa Klaw Bikerboss and a BBK Squigboss make for a very fast, very punchy and surprisingly durable hammer.
The overall damage output can be pretty obnoxious if I get things in the right place, and the list is still pretty darn quick. The main downside is that I essentially surrender a buttload of VP to Assassinate, but thats a trade off I'm kind of willing to make to get more MWs on the board.
List is in spoilers for anyone interested, but if anyone has any comments can they please go in the thread on the Army List page to keep this thread free of clutter.
Afrodactyl wrote: I've played some quick pick up games with my list from a few posts back, made some changes. The games weren't anything spectacular or intense, just some pick up games against a semi-competitive Drukhari list, an Ultramarines one, and a Tyranid one. The Tyranid one absolutely stomped me the first time round, but I did better after making some changes and for knowing the capabilities of the Nids. I'm still getting to grips with the slower speed, having gone from bikes to Squigs, so take my comments with a hefty pinch of salt.
I changed my 2 units of 5 Squighogs for 3 units of 3, and dropped a Snazzwagon. With the adjustments I've lost a little bit of shooting potential, but I'm suffering less traffic jams and I have an extra Bomb Squig. I've now got a total of 9 sources of mortal wound output, 4 of which are reusable (Squigboss, MSJs and Smasha Squigs).
I've also managed to squeeze in Boss Zagstruk with the adjusted points, leaning fully into CP-less herohammer. Zagstruk, a Killa Klaw Bikerboss and a BBK Squigboss make for a very fast, very punchy and surprisingly durable hammer.
The overall damage output can be pretty obnoxious if I get things in the right place, and the list is still pretty darn quick. The main downside is that I essentially surrender a buttload of VP to Assassinate, but thats a trade off I'm kind of willing to make to get more MWs on the board.
List is in spoilers for anyone interested, but if anyone has any comments can they please go in the thread on the Army List page to keep this thread free of clutter.
Is it on purpose or merely a mistake, that the warlord, beastboss on squig with BBK has no relic? And the warboss on warbike with Da killa klaw with no warlord trait. It would seem that the BBK should be on the warboss on warbike? And maybe ard as nails/beasthide mantle on the warlord? your list seems very interesting and different. I like that. I myself toyed with the idea of having ghaz and deepstriking in 3 scrapjets as a sort of hammer. I only tried it once against custodians and i lost there. But thats a pretty bad match up for me anyway so maybe i should whip out that army again for a new try.
I ' m not the master of goff press list, but to make a press, you need a power.
Manz in trukks are not enough..
I think you need more hard hitters. Look at the goff lists placed well. Thay always have the KMK, kill rigs, beastboss on saurs or even Killa Kans.
Keep the stromboyz in minimum units. With their morale and low damage output, why take more than 5? Die anyway.
The same with squigriders. Why 4 with their morale?
More cheaper units to trade and more heavy hitters.
Zagstruk? One nice warboss for free?
Yea.. i just feel like kill rigs and squig riders die off too quickly. I feel like the damage is great on squig riders (as per my tournament i just played) but the morale of 6 is also really damaging. I had a lot of infantry so it was hard to hide them, but maybe in a kill rig list it would be easier to hide my squiggies. Good damage though.
The kill rig being a singular model with only an invul of 6 makes it easy to slay. And its on a knights base so i fear that i cant really hide the model that well. But i agree though, that kill rigs might be the way to go. I wonder if it would be better to use them as hunta rigs simply because they are cheaper? In any case, i will have to experiment with the hunta/kill rigs. luckily i picked up a second kill rig for half price that had only been primed.
I have used killa kanz once but they just make me angry on a principal level, so i almost dont want to use them. They dont have ere' we go despite grot mega tanks having it, forcing me to pay CP to reroll my deepstrike Ramming speed, and they have toughness 5 despite all orks went up 1 toughness. They are clearly meant to be toughness 6 but remain at toughness 5. i have NOT experimented with deff dreads though. Maybe just deepstriking in 3 of them with all saws would be good?
The over all problem with my list was that being goffs, i had a focus on kill games, and my enemy, whether they had a decent focus on CC or not, still had plenty of shooting to force me to come to him. that tended to give him around 2 rounds of shooting which my list just cant take.
I am fully open for suggestions to making a better Goff pressure list because i seem to be a bit out of ideas. WHAT exactly encompasses a good goff pressure list? Whats the best one currently meta wise? Because i feel like im leaning towards the speed freeks kind of play style here.
I don't think there's much to do until we get some of AoC like buff (whatever that is), or massive points drops.
We just don't have enough stuff to fight good armies, and our shooting is too gimpable unless you go 2000 points of it. But it's very hard to win some matchups without a good shooting phase.
This will just get worse in the Nephilim pack. Herohammer for Orks is done, and good luck bringing multiple detachments to get those sweet, sweet FA slots.
Just have fun. C tier army isn't going to win many games.
To the defense of AOC i didnt fight any AOC armies as the only guy i was against that had it, the DG player, didnt show up. yet i still lost against Drukhari, tyranids and genstealers. Though as i said i think i could win versus the genestealers if i knew what i was doing. Same for the drukhari player maybe. But i still feel like everything i have doesnt do what its meant to at its cost. its expensive.
It would be great if orks, like tyranids synapse stuff, just auto pass morale near warbosses. Then suddenly i think we would see a lot of 20-30 man blobs that would make using our stratagems efficient. but apparently only tyranids and some others are allowed to auto pass morale.
I still feel like our shooting army of renown or even a normal vehicle heavy freebootas speed waaagh works though.
Ive been put back to the drawing board for the time being, to contemplate what set up to use for my future games. If my focus should be on a speedwaaagh/army of renown, or goff pressure lists. Sadly i need to paint things so i cant prepare both at once
@Beardedragon the relic/trait situation is deliberate. I want the Squigboss as the Warlord for regular Waaagh, and the Killa Klaw let's the Bikerboss/Zagstruk combo be a really fast and effective missile. (assuming it's correct that it doesn't get the -1 to hit, as it replaces the power klaw and doesn't feature the -1 to hit in its own profile). BBK lets the Squigboss be a big threat outside of its MW output.
Skimping on the traits and relics lets me start with a single CP, going up to 2 on the start of turn 1. This lets me keep things like Tankbusta Bomb, Ramming Speed, etc, in my back pocket on turn one.
It isn't ideal, as I would love to put the Killchoppa or the Beasthide Mantle on the Squigboss, but the extra MW output turn 1 is great.
To the defense of AOC i didnt fight any AOC armies as the only guy i was against that had it, the DG player, didnt show up. yet i still lost against Drukhari, tyranids and genstealers. Though as i said i think i could win versus the genestealers if i knew what i was doing. Same for the drukhari player maybe. But i still feel like everything i have doesnt do what its meant to at its cost. its expensive.
It would be great if orks, like tyranids synapse stuff, just auto pass morale near warbosses. Then suddenly i think we would see a lot of 20-30 man blobs that would make using our stratagems efficient. but apparently only tyranids and some others are allowed to auto pass morale.
I still feel like our shooting army of renown or even a normal vehicle heavy freebootas speed waaagh works though.
Ive been put back to the drawing board for the time being, to contemplate what set up to use for my future games. If my focus should be on a speedwaaagh/army of renown, or goff pressure lists. Sadly i need to paint things so i cant prepare both at once
I'm actually pro Armour of Contempt -- Marines durability was such a joke they needed *something*. It just unfortunately left certain armies in the lurch as they didn't address their issues (Orks have an AP problem, and not getting 1 rend from choppas makes 9 point boys even worse than they were).
IMO the biggest fix for Orks would be making unmodified 5s always hit. Dense cover would still be effective vs a lot of our good shooting, but it would mean that our expensive platforms aren't losing 50% efficiency in a lot of common situations. I don't think it'll happen, though.
The Ork codex at its core is just riddled with issues. Poor and overcosted strat support, two weak to middling psychic trees, very little ways of throtting units. And our buff of T5 was completely mitigated by points increases, morale issues, and the weaker KFF. Durability is down from 8th.
And the general fixes to the game (IE: reducing subfaction mixing) seem to hurt a codex which was sort of built with that in mind.
I think picking between AoR and a melee pressure list is just deciding your bad matchup. The AoR bleeds a kill secondary but gives you buckets of fast shooting that might hit on 6s. The pressure list gives you a better secondary game but leaves you vulnerable to fast shooting lists (CWE, Tau), or much faster combat armies (DE, Harlies). Sometimes you might need first turn to even have a snowball's chance of winning.
Overall I don't think your general direction is wrong that's just the book we have. It's a bottom of B to C tier codex. Unless we get some massive points cuts the book just sort of sucks until we get the next one.
I know they are trying to speed up the game a bit, but Ork lists are designed with redundancy in mind -- which is fine. But it does mean our stuff needs to be cheap *if* we have bad saves, are slow, and are weak to morale.
With how we've plummeted in the tables, I would hope we get some points drops on underperforming units, and maybe some of our nerfs being revised and considered for review.
I love the idea of Ork shooting always hitting on a 5+. Just a bunch of Orks not caring about cover or holofields or whatever and drowning it in Dakka instead.
Being able to use a Warboss' unmodified LD value while within 6" would be amazing for us as well.
Given the latest WTC table i just played, it had a literal amount of 6 areas that gave -1 to hit when shot through. 4 of them actual forests, 2 of them, in the middle, just have +1 save and -1 to hit.
I have no clue how i should actually play a speedwaaagh on that stage without doing pure overwatch shooting.
In that regard, as you said Tulun, i feel like NO ork unit should EVER hit on anything worse than a 5 (6s during overwatch still ofc).
I feel like it would be a completely fair thing to get. and sure, it still makes freebootas a thing if you have proper positioning. But we shouldnt hit on 6s... who else even has a chance to hit on 6s normally? no one does, because no faction deserves to hit on 6s...
Afrodactyl wrote: With how we've plummeted in the tables, I would hope we get some points drops on underperforming units, and maybe some of our nerfs being revised and considered for review.
I love the idea of Ork shooting always hitting on a 5+. Just a bunch of Orks not caring about cover or holofields or whatever and drowning it in Dakka instead.
I prefer making enemy stuff more expensive. At 2000 points we can already swarm the table with models, including toys. Just the superheavies need to be much cheaper (like 100 points cheaper) or completely re-written. Always hitting on 5s never gonna happen, it would flat out ignore any -1 to hit modifyer in the game which is massive; it's more realistic to hope for something like: 6s to hit always hit and score double hits.
About our lists' archetypes, what about Blood Axes? They seem quite popular for tournaments but I have never see someone playing them. Can they be an effective alternative to Goffs?
Blackie wrote: About our lists' archetypes, what about Blood Axes? They seem quite popular for tournaments but I have never see someone playing them. Can they be an effective alternative to Goffs?
BA lists are an archetype playing the VP game by Kommandos and mw spam. Mw come from various Squig Bombs delivery units like Kommandos hiding in non-los area terrain utilizing Surprize!, Squighogs, Tankbustas etc.
A couple of games into the mw strategy I´ve noticed that the Squig Bomb character sniping is scary for the opponent as many armies have a support character plan. This creates a comedic experience of us being better at killing their supposedly toughest units (=characters) than their troops as we suffer from AP deficiencies.
Another finding is that I like Tankbustas once I started using them. A minimum mob is cheap, easily hidden between other more threatening stuff, yet projects multiple threats. The Tankhammer in particular is silly.
Do Kommando units of 10 with a bomb squig have much of a place in Goffs or DS lists? They seem quite worthwhile to me at the moment, especially considering Boyz are terrible.
MyDoppelganger wrote:Do Kommando units of 10 with a bomb squig have much of a place in Goffs or DS lists? They seem quite worthwhile to me at the moment, especially considering Boyz are terrible.
I'm really liking my Goff kommandos. They're decently durable when in cover and they hit surprisingly hard. They tend to force enough saves that some of its getting through.
I can see them being good in a DS list for trying to bully things off of objectives, but they would be a supporting act to a MANz blob in that kind of list I would imagine.
I would say if you're taking kommandos in a unit of ten, you take a bomb squig every single time. Way, way more valuable than any other option for the squad in my opinion.
Dendarien wrote:
What really feels bad is the loss of FA slots going to a single battalion.
Any thoughts on what your guesses might be for our points changes in the upcoming CA?
I'm hoping they drop the points for squigbuggies at the very least given how dead as a unit they are now. I hope they address how bad boyz are and drop them to at least 6-7 points, likewise with Beast Snaggas to 9 points or something. Not sure how they'll bother touching units like Nobz, Lootas or Flash Gitz given how badly they fare in a post AoC world, but I assume they're going to leave them as is.
They don't want 150+ boy spam lists -- that's clear with the uptick in points and general pushing of more elite units. Also given morale changes, weaker KFF, lack of strat support for big boy blobs.
Expect maybe a couple points here and there and nothing else. I suspect GW is perfectly fine with the state of Orks, and I imagine it's a faction still sells well in spite of being a complete loser competitively.
Grimskul wrote: Any thoughts on what your guesses might be for our points changes in the upcoming CA?
I'm hoping they drop the points for squigbuggies at the very least given how dead as a unit they are now. I hope they address how bad boyz are and drop them to at least 6-7 points, likewise with Beast Snaggas to 9 points or something. Not sure how they'll bother touching units like Nobz, Lootas or Flash Gitz given how badly they fare in a post AoC world, but I assume they're going to leave them as is.
well. asking what i hope is one thing, asking what i expect is another. i expect nerfs to squig bombs honestly. because sure why not.
I hope for a clean up of things that dont make sense first and formost.
What i want changed: Squiggoths/gargantuan squiggoths not having squig keyword, as well as Hunta/Kill rigs. The beast snagga models were marketed as being great with snakebites, yet the two rig variants gets no buffs at all from being in snakebites. So at the very least both rigs should have Squig keyword as well. Movement 5 for big meks in mega armor (why do they even only move 4? seems like an oversight from 8th edition codex) Snakebites, permanent transhuman, not just below str 8 During the shooting phase, all ork units make successful hits on unmodified hit rolls of 5 Ere we go! given to Killa Kanz Kannon wagons actually getting "Wagon" keyword A way to mitigate morale and leadership tests across the board, like a type of synapse, that allows orks with Mob rule to pass leadership when near a warboss. In return, maybe all mob rule units could get -1LD for 1 turn on the turn a warboss dies? Reduction of CP cost for some stratagems, and update them to cost 1CP for 10 and fewer models, and 2CP for 11+, to avoid Unbridled carnage" costing 2CP despite you using it on 10 boyz. But also reduce the KFF stratagem to 1CP since you already pay the hefty price of it being destroyed afterwards. Breaking eads' stratagem being made a warboss type ability once again Grots getting Obsec and being reduced in price (maybe 2 grots for 5 points?) The Nob with Waaagh! banner actually doing something useful The big Choppa getting -2AP Nobz getting an overhaul because all their ranged weapons are gak and outdone by specialist infantry like Burna boyz or Tankbustas. Nobz, boyz, snagga boyz, squig riders, everything basically getting reduced in price, which hopefully actually makes me able to flood the board more. And if thats not a thing they want, then more efficient infantry in general. If ALL i can do is hit things in melee, then i bloody want to win when i do it. It cant be correct that im paying the same amount of points for 10 boyz as 5 space marines, and when i finally get in to CC, then i lose. Boyz are neither cheap, killy, fast nor duable. It needs to do one of those things right. squig riders and Deffkoptas getting LD 7. taking LD tests when you are under no leadership modifiers after losing a single model should be a crime against humanity. Potentially specialist detatchments like trukkboyz, retaining their klan kulture? Dakka weapons being allowed to be fired on an advance!!!! Klan kulture updates to things like snakebites (mentioned above, and evil sunz!!!!) Mega Nobz overhaul. Our Mega Nobz are terrible compared to what everyone else seem to get for their terminator esque type units. Im not saying they are terrible in general, but they are bad compared to Scarab occult terminators, Blightlord terminators and what you can get out of those terminator ish genestealers with their 5++, 5+++ and -1 damage taken. Gorkanauts, morkanauts and STOMPAS being radically reduced in price to match what the new Knights can do for their cost. a Stompa is 700 points but would lose 10 out of 10 times against a much cheaper knight at 24 wounds.
What we will probably get: Reductions across the board on some units we dont touch, and them not getting any fundamental changes that makes sense. GW arent known for changing a lot of things except when its against our favor. So things like lootas and what not that are fundamentally flawed, will just be cheaper maybe. But, i do hope for: Boyz to go to 7 points (will probably be 8 though), and snagga boyz to 9.
And many other things but i really dont expect anything. If anything im sure GW will find it in their hearts to nerf us again. Probably with the squig bombs.
GW puts too much value in raw toughness, they wont drop our points for squat because of that alone.
Other than toughness, theres 0 reason for ork boyz to cost so much compared to literally any other basic infantry. Yeah ork boyz melee is fairly strong compared to other basic infantry, but thats melee....which should be considerably cheaper than shooting pound for pound.
Dear Gork and Mork,
I was a very nice ork boy so I wish for this summer Orkmass:
- bikers count as two to steal objectives from Armingers by my 3biker squads
- buggies became independent units after deploy
- Kannonwagon gets the Wagon keyword
- Nob on Warbikers fixed to be in line with regular warbikers
- kustom Jobs valid for the whole squad for the same price
- secondaries that makes sence
- more dakka!
Tomsug wrote: Dear Gork and Mork, I was a very nice ork boy so I wish for this summer Orkmass:
- bikers count as two to steal objectives from Armingers by my 3biker squads - buggies became independent units after deploy - Kannonwagon gets the Wagon keyword - Nob on Warbikers fixed to be in line with regular warbikers - kustom Jobs valid for the whole squad for the same price - secondaries that makes sence - more dakka!
Let the Squigs be with you!
to be fair, im not sure i see how buggies can split atm after we got all these stratagems for the speed mob list. Most wouldnt be useful on a single buggy. I really want my buggies to split, but all the stratagems would have to be reworded and redone in order to accompany this.
Tomsug wrote: Dear Gork and Mork,
I was a very nice ork boy so I wish for this summer Orkmass:
- bikers count as two to steal objectives from Armingers by my 3biker squads
- buggies became independent units after deploy
- Kannonwagon gets the Wagon keyword
- Nob on Warbikers fixed to be in line with regular warbikers
- kustom Jobs valid for the whole squad for the same price
- secondaries that makes sence
- more dakka!
Let the Squigs be with you!
to be fair, im not sure i see how buggies can split atm after we got all these stratagems for the speed mob list. Most wouldnt be useful on a single buggy. I really want my buggies to split, but all the stratagems would have to be reworded and redone in order to accompany this.
Make the split optional. IE I can take one unit of 3 Boosta-blastas, and when I deploy them I decide if they will be a unit of 3, a unit of 2 and a unit of 1, or 3 units of 1.
MyDoppelganger wrote:Do Kommando units of 10 with a bomb squig have much of a place in Goffs or DS lists? They seem quite worthwhile to me at the moment, especially considering Boyz are terrible.
I'm really liking my Goff kommandos. They're decently durable when in cover and they hit surprisingly hard. They tend to force enough saves that some of its getting through.
I can see them being good in a DS list for trying to bully things off of objectives, but they would be a supporting act to a MANz blob in that kind of list I would imagine.
I would say if you're taking kommandos in a unit of ten, you take a bomb squig every single time. Way, way more valuable than any other option for the squad in my opinion.
Dendarien wrote:
What really feels bad is the loss of FA slots going to a single battalion.
I like the list. What's going in the wagons?
Depends on the list. General idea is (assuming player placed terrain) I'm going to hunker down behind a forest with the wagons full of MANz/boyz/potentially one with the stormboyz to layer defenses with Makari and the KFF.
I've had some success putting Stormboyz in a wagon to move them 21" turn 1 and then cycle MANz into the wagon to go forward.
dorath wrote: I expect Bomb Squig costs will double.
I hope more Troops units will get free upgrades.
I can see them leaving bomb Squigs alone. Yes, they're "cheap" and can snipe characters, but they're short ranged, single use and can fail.
The bomb squig for a unit of Kommandos costs 65 points. You either run a barebones unit for 60-65 points, or you spend the extra 60 points effectively purchasing the entire unit again, which then allows you to then buy the bomb squig.
Likewise for the Squighogs. Yes, you only pay 5 points for the first one, but you have to buy the entire unit over again to get another.
That's 65/80 points to maybe do 1d3 mortal wounds. Once. It's not exactly setting the world alight.
The only time they might cause concern is if you took a 45 Tankbusta, 30 Kommando, 18 Squighog list to max them out. But at that point you're basically spending 1710 points on bomb Squigs, without spending any points on mandatory troops or hq slots.
One important point is, that well - Marshall Peterson performed well few times with this list. Well = was 4th…. And than what? Do you see a spam of these across the BCP? I don' t .
How many of you performed well with this list?
How many of you actually plays it?
So why should GW care at all… Meta hunters our out of our pool, just (some of the) ork players plays orks right now. Nobody cares…
dorath wrote: I expect Bomb Squig costs will double.
I hope more Troops units will get free upgrades.
I can see them leaving bomb Squigs alone. Yes, they're "cheap" and can snipe characters, but they're short ranged, single use and can fail.
The bomb squig for a unit of Kommandos costs 65 points. You either run a barebones unit for 60-65 points, or you spend the extra 60 points effectively purchasing the entire unit again, which then allows you to then buy the bomb squig.
Likewise for the Squighogs. Yes, you only pay 5 points for the first one, but you have to buy the entire unit over again to get another.
That's 65/80 points to maybe do 1d3 mortal wounds. Once. It's not exactly setting the world alight.
The only time they might cause concern is if you took a 45 Tankbusta, 30 Kommando, 18 Squighog list to max them out. But at that point you're basically spending 1710 points on bomb Squigs, without spending any points on mandatory troops or hq slots.
I actually don't mind bomb squigs going up, even if that means doubling their points cost to 10ppm. The reason is squads of squig riders and kommandos don't really care if they cost 5 points more. Tankbustas on the other hand could get a points drop so even with 10ppm bomb squigs they'd be exactly the same or even better than now.
This is just a rough first draft but something to the effect of:
Ghaz
Makari
KFF Mek
Bike boss
2x10 Snagga boyz
10 Grots
3x5 MANz 5 Kommandos
2x3 Squigs
10 Stormboyz
3 Wagons w/ rollas and ard cases
At tha point, with 3x BWs, I'd drop the snaggas which are forced to go on foot and go full gretchins. Three squads of grots to join the manz in the BWs, maybe tankbustas although I wouldn't give up the T8 on the wagons: they'd be just 16W slower trukks then. Or you can drop a BW for a mek gun and increase the kommandos. Koptas, bikes or more squigs instead of stormboyz are also legit options.
Tomsug wrote: One important point is, that well - Marshall Peterson performed well few times with this list. Well = was 4th…. And than what? Do you see a spam of these across the BCP? I don' t .
How many of you performed well with this list?
How many of you actually plays it?
Put bluntly, it´s isn´t played because it´s harder to do correctly than an alpha strike list like 40k has been played since RT. Performance isn´t high as you allude to.
I´m playing that strategy exclusively since I read about it and it´s not easy imho. Yet it does surprisingly good stuff. Yesterday a unit of Tankbustas had waited patiently behind a wall for three turns when the Marines passed the midline with their Land Raider. 'bustas charged out, released a Squig, Tankhammered and Tankbusta bommed it into oblivion. Most opponents barely perceives the threat in the general scrum that´s Orks and it pays off.
Afrodactyl wrote: I'm really liking my Goff kommandos. They're decently durable when in cover and they hit surprisingly hard. They tend to force enough saves that some of its getting through.
Just for lolz here's my experience facing kommandos. First time faced them. Had to deal with them, tried deep strike 8 sanguinary guard. One died to overwatch, 7 killed 7 kommando, remaining kommandos(3) killed 6 sanguinary guard and remaining ran away :lol:
Okay probably case of bad luck but damn that was a headscratcher.
Tomsug wrote: One important point is, that well - Marshall Peterson performed well few times with this list. Well = was 4th…. And than what? Do you see a spam of these across the BCP? I don' t .
How many of you performed well with this list? How many of you actually plays it?
So why should GW care at all… Meta hunters our out of our pool, just (some of the) ork players plays orks right now. Nobody cares…
IF i used it at my previous GT i wouldnt do well, because NONE of the ruins had large enough footprints for me to be able to use "Surprise! stratagem on the kommandos. They would just be charged and destroyed. The list is entirely map dependant, if there are no large ruins to hide kommandos in, your effectiveness is lowered a lot.
IF i used it at my previous GT i wouldnt do well, because NONE of the ruins had large enough footprints for me to be able to use "Surprise! stratagem on the kommandos. They would just be charged and destroyed. The list is entirely map dependant, if there are no large ruins to hide kommandos in, your effectiveness is lowered a lot.
I've tried the list a few times. my shop uses NOVA style foam terrain - decent size foot prints, but still very difficult to leverage surprise outside of the two big L shaped terrain pieces that are 11x8 - the walls on these things are exactly an inch thick, so no fighting through them. if the stratagem was within 1" of a terrain feature instead of wholly within it would have utility on a larger variety of boards.
GW terrain doesnt have this problem because the 4 big pieces are something like 11x11, the two smaller ones are 5.5x11 with space enough to drive a land raider through the terrain itself on some of the boards.
Tomsug wrote: One important point is, that well - Marshall Peterson performed well few times with this list. Well = was 4th…. And than what? Do you see a spam of these across the BCP? I don' t .
How many of you performed well with this list?
How many of you actually plays it?
So why should GW care at all… Meta hunters our out of our pool, just (some of the) ork players plays orks right now. Nobody cares…
IF i used it at my previous GT i wouldnt do well, because NONE of the ruins had large enough footprints for me to be able to use "Surprise! stratagem on the kommandos. They would just be charged and destroyed. The list is entirely map dependant, if there are no large ruins to hide kommandos in, your effectiveness is lowered a lot.
Yeah, also not everyone plays with ruins or such. In my group for example we mostly play on "natural" scenarios, aka planets with rock formations, forests, some buildings, etc... but typically not ruined cities.
Indeed. When i read the "surprise!" i stratagem i thought, GREAT! oh wait... never mind!
Because i knew i would never make a blood axe army because i would never... well, almost never, get to play on maps i could use the stratagem on. Its mostly 10 man groups you run as kommandos for blood axes, so you need a large ruin. Its absolutely stupid that you have to be wholly within. Due to how integrate that stratagem is for a blood axes army, i cant make a list that will suck on 75% of the maps i end up playing on, while being great on the last 25.
Blood axes also have another stratagem or something, i believe, the one that allows a unit to not be shot unless the enemy is 12 inches within. That too is stupid because they also have to be wholly within. If i remember correctly.
If it says Wholly within terrain piece, its just a big no go for me. Its bad writing. It shouldnt be wholly within, it should just be that all models in the units must get benefits of cover. that way all your men just have to touch the terrain piece. THAT i can work with.
So with the new GT rules, is the Teleporta basically dead? If so, it's very frustrating that these rules are so limiting. Limitations are important, obviously, but cutting off included functions of a faction is bad design.
MyDoppelganger wrote: So with the new GT rules, is the Teleporta basically dead? If so, it's very frustrating that these rules are so limiting. Limitations are important, obviously, but cutting off included functions of a faction is bad design.
MyDoppelganger wrote: So with the new GT rules, is the Teleporta basically dead? If so, it's very frustrating that these rules are so limiting. Limitations are important, obviously, but cutting off included functions of a faction is bad design.
what?
I'm guessing he means in terms of the 2CP cost being prohibitive because it's pre-game?
MyDoppelganger wrote: So with the new GT rules, is the Teleporta basically dead? If so, it's very frustrating that these rules are so limiting. Limitations are important, obviously, but cutting off included functions of a faction is bad design.
what?
I'm guessing he means in terms of the 2CP cost being prohibitive because it's pre-game?
oh.. well i wont talk too much about it nor think about it. Theres too much info we dont have yet. Everything could be garbage, or everything could turn out fine.
Ya lists will change… and this appears to be a major scoring shakeup… for all we know orks get drastic point reductions and named characters become better then non named warlords since you don’t need to use CP to make names better and ork secondary objectives become super easy to score…
I mean I don’t think that will happen but this is a major scoring change for a lot of books plus point adjustments..
Personally I think mozgrod and ghaz are going to be better leaders in goff style lists…
MyDoppelganger wrote: Do Kommando units of 10 with a bomb squig have much of a place in Goffs or DS lists? They seem quite worthwhile to me at the moment, especially considering Boyz are terrible.
Absolutely they belong on goff pressure lists. Kommandos are one of the best units in the entire codex. You can forward deploy them as an alpha strike threat or you can leave them as a beta strike/defensive threat.
They also tie in pretty well with the mindset of spamming Mortal wounds as much as possible and even with the AoC stupidity they still do work thanks to their +1 to wound which effectively makes Goff Kommandos wound T4 and below on 2s.
I'm currently in the process of getting my Squig Beta strike list together, I have 15 Squig Riders (going to get 3 more soon) and the mindset is to bring them along with a host of Deffkoptas to just flood the board in threats, is it going to be competitive? I mean..no, we are pretty well hosed atm but it should be fun.
Atm its 15 Squig Riders, 3 (actually 5 but GW is stupid so I can't use them all) Nobs on Smasha Squigs, a Warboss on Squigosaur, a Single Kill Rig and a Host of 20 Beastboyz. Next purchase is going to be the last 3 squig riders and a 6th Nob on Smash squig which I can't use either, and after that maybe another kill rig. When all of that is said and done my Beastsnagga army should be basically complete
Named characters essentially getting "free relics" and a decent statline just for points will definitely become more important.
Just take Ghaz, Zagstruck, and a regular warboss, and you have 3 boss like characters that only net you down 2 CP -- Ghaz doesn't need proper killy anyway.
That would give you room for porta.
The major blow imo though is it'll be incredibly difficult to do multiple detachments. 3 FA slots is simply not enough.
tulun wrote: Named characters essentially getting "free relics" and a decent statline just for points will definitely become more important.
Just take Ghaz, Zagstruck, and a regular warboss, and you have 3 boss like characters that only net you down 2 CP -- Ghaz doesn't need proper killy anyway.
That would give you room for porta.
The major blow imo though is it'll be incredibly difficult to do multiple detachments. 3 FA slots is simply not enough.
Yeah I'm way more concerned about fast attack slots than warbosses. I usually just run Ghaz and a biker boss, maybe Zagstruk too.
tulun wrote: Named characters essentially getting "free relics" and a decent statline just for points will definitely become more important.
Just take Ghaz, Zagstruck, and a regular warboss, and you have 3 boss like characters that only net you down 2 CP -- Ghaz doesn't need proper killy anyway.
That would give you room for porta.
The major blow imo though is it'll be incredibly difficult to do multiple detachments. 3 FA slots is simply not enough.
Yeah I'm way more concerned about fast attack slots than warbosses. I usually just run Ghaz and a biker boss, maybe Zagstruk too.
Our fast attack slots are just so good compared to everything else.
I'm still not entirely sold on Ghaz, mostly because if you're running him you're kind of forced to run rigs or wagons to draw some fire away from him.
The problem isn’t that he needs soemthing to draw fire.. he’s made to draw fire… the issue is he’s to slow AND GW thought it was great to provide several armies special rules to circumvent his defensive buff that limits damage per phase.. he was already somewhat limited by armies that had good psychic, shooting and assault
MyDoppelganger wrote: So with the new GT rules, is the Teleporta basically dead? If so, it's very frustrating that these rules are so limiting. Limitations are important, obviously, but cutting off included functions of a faction is bad design.
what?
I'm guessing he means in terms of the 2CP cost being prohibitive because it's pre-game?
Yes, I apologise for my vagueness. That's what I was referring to.
tulun wrote: Named characters essentially getting "free relics" and a decent statline just for points will definitely become more important.
Just take Ghaz, Zagstruck, and a regular warboss, and you have 3 boss like characters that only net you down 2 CP -- Ghaz doesn't need proper killy anyway.
That would give you room for porta.
The major blow imo though is it'll be incredibly difficult to do multiple detachments. 3 FA slots is simply not enough.
It's unfortunate that other klans are likely going to be hampered due to lack of heroes. I really love playing Deathskulls, but my lists will suffer from only being able to take one kitted out character. This is why I am hoping for a points drop on the Big Mek with SAG!
I'm currently in the process of getting my Squig Beta strike list together, I have 15 Squig Riders (going to get 3 more soon) and the mindset is to bring them along with a host of Deffkoptas to just flood the board in threats, is it going to be competitive? I mean..no, we are pretty well hosed atm but it should be fun.
Atm its 15 Squig Riders, 3 (actually 5 but GW is stupid so I can't use them all) Nobs on Smasha Squigs, a Warboss on Squigosaur, a Single Kill Rig and a Host of 20 Beastboyz. Next purchase is going to be the last 3 squig riders and a 6th Nob on Smash squig which I can't use either, and after that maybe another kill rig. When all of that is said and done my Beastsnagga army should be basically complete
That' s the way to go. My plan for the second half of this year (and part of the next one I guess ) You aim to the future!
I'm currently in the process of getting my Squig Beta strike list together, I have 15 Squig Riders (going to get 3 more soon) and the mindset is to bring them along with a host of Deffkoptas to just flood the board in threats, is it going to be competitive? I mean..no, we are pretty well hosed atm but it should be fun.
Atm its 15 Squig Riders, 3 (actually 5 but GW is stupid so I can't use them all) Nobs on Smasha Squigs, a Warboss on Squigosaur, a Single Kill Rig and a Host of 20 Beastboyz. Next purchase is going to be the last 3 squig riders and a 6th Nob on Smash squig which I can't use either, and after that maybe another kill rig. When all of that is said and done my Beastsnagga army should be basically complete
That' s the way to go. My plan for the second half of this year (and part of the next one I guess ) You aim to the future!
Ive decided to put my goff close combat army on hold for now and have decided to put my lot with a speed mob. Hopefully they will remain good. Squig armies.. eeh.. i mean ill have to try that out some time later. My initial attempts were flawed because i attempted kill games so that was my fault. But for now ill just go for a speed mob. Blood axes for more stratagems and reducing 1 stratagem by 1 per round as well.
A few warbikers for good bitz, and a blasta jet, 2 squigbuggies holding the backline and 5 deffkoptas being to the last targets. the blood axes traits/relics will help me being able to get on the table with the deffkoptas, do the charge through em strat and still have CP to bounce off the map afterwards for maybe a turn or 2.
Then the reduction of 1 stratagem by 1CP will help me keep getting the deffkoptas off the table each turn since i also get 1 CP per turn. So thats my plan. Then snazzwagons, scrapjets and other things filling out the remaining rooster.
Squig buggies sucks but they are the only ones that seem to make sense holding the backline if you plan to use while we stand we fight. Otherwise sure, one could use 3 warbikers for 75 points. But they seem better than a gunwagon at least, as they can actually shoot. getting worse BS and enemy +1 save but still.
i have never tried the actual speed mob but that would be my plan, and thats what im painting towards doing. That or something along those lines.
I'm currently in the process of getting my Squig Beta strike list together, I have 15 Squig Riders (going to get 3 more soon) and the mindset is to bring them along with a host of Deffkoptas to just flood the board in threats, is it going to be competitive? I mean..no, we are pretty well hosed atm but it should be fun.
Atm its 15 Squig Riders, 3 (actually 5 but GW is stupid so I can't use them all) Nobs on Smasha Squigs, a Warboss on Squigosaur, a Single Kill Rig and a Host of 20 Beastboyz. Next purchase is going to be the last 3 squig riders and a 6th Nob on Smash squig which I can't use either, and after that maybe another kill rig. When all of that is said and done my Beastsnagga army should be basically complete
That' s the way to go. My plan for the second half of this year (and part of the next one I guess ) You aim to the future!
Ive decided to put my goff close combat army on hold for now and have decided to put my lot with a speed mob. Hopefully they will remain good. Squig armies.. eeh.. i mean ill have to try that out some time later. My initial attempts were flawed because i attempted kill games so that was my fault. But for now ill just go for a speed mob. Blood axes for more stratagems and reducing 1 stratagem by 1 per round as well.
A few warbikers for good bitz, and a blasta jet, 2 squigbuggies holding the backline and 5 deffkoptas being to the last targets. the blood axes traits/relics will help me being able to get on the table with the deffkoptas, do the charge through em strat and still have CP to bounce off the map afterwards for maybe a turn or 2.
Then the reduction of 1 stratagem by 1CP will help me keep getting the deffkoptas off the table each turn since i also get 1 CP per turn. So thats my plan. Then snazzwagons, scrapjets and other things filling out the remaining rooster.
Squig buggies sucks but they are the only ones that seem to make sense holding the backline if you plan to use while we stand we fight. Otherwise sure, one could use 3 warbikers for 75 points. But they seem better than a gunwagon at least, as they can actually shoot. getting worse BS and enemy +1 save but still.
i have never tried the actual speed mob but that would be my plan, and thats what im painting towards doing. That or something along those lines.
Fairly reasonable until you realize that any marine army ignores your speedwaagh and while in cover basically save at their save. Koptas are good but expensive and CP hungry.
Squigbuggies hold the back, but just as they kill cero with the new rules of indirect fire.
Also, a propa table will give you headaches just for moving around.
I'm currently in the process of getting my Squig Beta strike list together, I have 15 Squig Riders (going to get 3 more soon) and the mindset is to bring them along with a host of Deffkoptas to just flood the board in threats, is it going to be competitive? I mean..no, we are pretty well hosed atm but it should be fun.
Atm its 15 Squig Riders, 3 (actually 5 but GW is stupid so I can't use them all) Nobs on Smasha Squigs, a Warboss on Squigosaur, a Single Kill Rig and a Host of 20 Beastboyz. Next purchase is going to be the last 3 squig riders and a 6th Nob on Smash squig which I can't use either, and after that maybe another kill rig. When all of that is said and done my Beastsnagga army should be basically complete
That' s the way to go. My plan for the second half of this year (and part of the next one I guess ) You aim to the future!
Ive decided to put my goff close combat army on hold for now and have decided to put my lot with a speed mob. Hopefully they will remain good. Squig armies.. eeh.. i mean ill have to try that out some time later. My initial attempts were flawed because i attempted kill games so that was my fault. But for now ill just go for a speed mob. Blood axes for more stratagems and reducing 1 stratagem by 1 per round as well.
A few warbikers for good bitz, and a blasta jet, 2 squigbuggies holding the backline and 5 deffkoptas being to the last targets. the blood axes traits/relics will help me being able to get on the table with the deffkoptas, do the charge through em strat and still have CP to bounce off the map afterwards for maybe a turn or 2.
Then the reduction of 1 stratagem by 1CP will help me keep getting the deffkoptas off the table each turn since i also get 1 CP per turn. So thats my plan. Then snazzwagons, scrapjets and other things filling out the remaining rooster.
Squig buggies sucks but they are the only ones that seem to make sense holding the backline if you plan to use while we stand we fight. Otherwise sure, one could use 3 warbikers for 75 points. But they seem better than a gunwagon at least, as they can actually shoot. getting worse BS and enemy +1 save but still.
i have never tried the actual speed mob but that would be my plan, and thats what im painting towards doing. That or something along those lines.
Fairly reasonable until you realize that any marine army ignores your speedwaagh and while in cover basically save at their save. Koptas are good but expensive and CP hungry. Squigbuggies hold the back, but just as they kill cero with the new rules of indirect fire.
Also, a propa table will give you headaches just for moving around.
that is correct. but i play in a decent amount of Team GTs so i have the opportunity to avoid space marine armies depending on pairings.
Also both my Deffkoptas and my blasta jet has Boomboyz on them for the extra AP.
On a speed waaagh, even a snazzwagon would have 3 AP, making space marines save on 4+ in cover, which isnt great but its okay. And when i think about the fact that i can play conservatively rather than aggressively with good bitz and to the last, it opens up for a few things. its not that i can play aggressively, i just dont have to. The fact i have that option is already more than what can be said about Goff pressure lists that dont really have a choice but to move forward, and your enemy knows this.
I AM worried about armor of contempt and forests being everywhere these days, but i will play it out and see what happens. Because a goff pressure list with maybe mega nobz, squig riders and 2 kill rigs i just dont see how wins either. You have so few units on the table. Clearly people make it work but i fail to see why it works. Also neither kill rigs nor squig riders can move through ruins so its easy for these units to be completely blocked off from going where you want them to on many WTC maps. there are a lot of L walls.
I kind of hope to get around that problem with a speed waaagh by having a lot of speed to move from one side to the other, and no reason to get in to CC in general by being a predominantly shooting army with some CC elements if i have to. If someone blocks me off from moving a specific place it doesnt stop me from shooting. blocking someone with only CC off from moving forward is a much bigger counter than someone who wants to shoot.
But again, mind you, im saying this from a theoretic point as ive never tried a speed mob before. I have tried Freebootas with grot mega tanks and buggies before AoC and that was really good. I hope this will also be good. To be fair i have also made a freebootas army (non speed mob version) with 2 hunta rigs as distraction carnifexes that im still waiting to see if is decent or not. like a real, old school freebootas speed waaagh, where you can still run 2x6 stormboyz for RND. While i feel like 160 points is a lot for a full rokkit grot mega tank (the damage is not bad for 160, but the defense is terrible), 125 points for 7 scorchas on a grot mega tank isnt bad at all. Ive had a lot of great success with that unit, but if it still works on AoC armies, we will have to see.
Yes, my note about Squig army was based on prediction that in some time soon these models will be great, because they are new.
I was on a small local tournament with my FB Speed Mob today and finished 4th from 12 with 2 wins and one lose.
Game 1 - Nuns with Guns 15:5 for orks. What ' s the problem with Armor of Compensation? Just shoot them down and screen them from charging your valuable units.
Game 2 - Tau + much better opponent + few stupid ork fails (like forget to cover the Warboss before declaring Speedwaaaagh..) on the beginning = 0:20 for Tau. I now how to make the game 15:5 for Tau but no better. Have to think about it.
Game 3 - Necrons with double C' Tan list. C 'Tans vomit their mortal wounds around, but Koptas + Ramming Speed + Crashing thru = nice way to go around “max 3 wounds lost per phase”. 12:8 for orks. Could be better, but the second C' Tan saved everything for 2 turns. Pure nightmare.
Lessons learned and notes:
- the longer I play Badskull Banner Warboss on Warbike - aka Obsec - Antiobsec missile - the more I like it. Usually let them covering home objective with anti obsec aura protecting the base againts some crazy charges in first few turns. Than he goes forward and turns the objectives. The key is do not send him forward too early, he dies easily. First clean the table a bit.
- I played very defensively and it is very effective. Better wait for a turn to have the right constelation to finish stuff. We die fast, most of the trades do not worth the points.
- SJD do not inflict any damage. Again. I don' t remember this buggy did some damage last time. And if you want it to teleport itself, it never goes. Pffff
- BSW - I like this buggy more and more. Perfect utility buggy to sit somewhere or block somewhere and do some damage for nice price.
- wazbooms are the key. Give them perfect 3+hit one turn of shooting and keep them safe for any costs! Crucial!!!
I'm currently in the process of getting my Squig Beta strike list together, I have 15 Squig Riders (going to get 3 more soon) and the mindset is to bring them along with a host of Deffkoptas to just flood the board in threats, is it going to be competitive? I mean..no, we are pretty well hosed atm but it should be fun.
Atm its 15 Squig Riders, 3 (actually 5 but GW is stupid so I can't use them all) Nobs on Smasha Squigs, a Warboss on Squigosaur, a Single Kill Rig and a Host of 20 Beastboyz. Next purchase is going to be the last 3 squig riders and a 6th Nob on Smash squig which I can't use either, and after that maybe another kill rig. When all of that is said and done my Beastsnagga army should be basically complete
That' s the way to go. My plan for the second half of this year (and part of the next one I guess ) You aim to the future!
Ive decided to put my goff close combat army on hold for now and have decided to put my lot with a speed mob. Hopefully they will remain good. Squig armies.. eeh.. i mean ill have to try that out some time later. My initial attempts were flawed because i attempted kill games so that was my fault. But for now ill just go for a speed mob. Blood axes for more stratagems and reducing 1 stratagem by 1 per round as well.
A few warbikers for good bitz, and a blasta jet, 2 squigbuggies holding the backline and 5 deffkoptas being to the last targets. the blood axes traits/relics will help me being able to get on the table with the deffkoptas, do the charge through em strat and still have CP to bounce off the map afterwards for maybe a turn or 2.
Then the reduction of 1 stratagem by 1CP will help me keep getting the deffkoptas off the table each turn since i also get 1 CP per turn. So thats my plan. Then snazzwagons, scrapjets and other things filling out the remaining rooster.
Squig buggies sucks but they are the only ones that seem to make sense holding the backline if you plan to use while we stand we fight. Otherwise sure, one could use 3 warbikers for 75 points. But they seem better than a gunwagon at least, as they can actually shoot. getting worse BS and enemy +1 save but still.
i have never tried the actual speed mob but that would be my plan, and thats what im painting towards doing. That or something along those lines.
Fairly reasonable until you realize that any marine army ignores your speedwaagh and while in cover basically save at their save. Koptas are good but expensive and CP hungry.
Squigbuggies hold the back, but just as they kill cero with the new rules of indirect fire.
Also, a propa table will give you headaches just for moving around.
that is correct. but i play in a decent amount of Team GTs so i have the opportunity to avoid space marine armies depending on pairings.
Also both my Deffkoptas and my blasta jet has Boomboyz on them for the extra AP.
On a speed waaagh, even a snazzwagon would have 3 AP, making space marines save on 4+ in cover, which isnt great but its okay. And when i think about the fact that i can play conservatively rather than aggressively with good bitz and to the last, it opens up for a few things. its not that i can play aggressively, i just dont have to. The fact i have that option is already more than what can be said about Goff pressure lists that dont really have a choice but to move forward, and your enemy knows this.
I AM worried about armor of contempt and forests being everywhere these days, but i will play it out and see what happens. Because a goff pressure list with maybe mega nobz, squig riders and 2 kill rigs i just dont see how wins either. You have so few units on the table. Clearly people make it work but i fail to see why it works. Also neither kill rigs nor squig riders can move through ruins so its easy for these units to be completely blocked off from going where you want them to on many WTC maps. there are a lot of L walls.
I kind of hope to get around that problem with a speed waaagh by having a lot of speed to move from one side to the other, and no reason to get in to CC in general by being a predominantly shooting army with some CC elements if i have to. If someone blocks me off from moving a specific place it doesnt stop me from shooting. blocking someone with only CC off from moving forward is a much bigger counter than someone who wants to shoot.
But again, mind you, im saying this from a theoretic point as ive never tried a speed mob before. I have tried Freebootas with grot mega tanks and buggies before AoC and that was really good. I hope this will also be good. To be fair i have also made a freebootas army (non speed mob version) with 2 hunta rigs as distraction carnifexes that im still waiting to see if is decent or not. like a real, old school freebootas speed waaagh, where you can still run 2x6 stormboyz for RND. While i feel like 160 points is a lot for a full rokkit grot mega tank (the damage is not bad for 160, but the defense is terrible), 125 points for 7 scorchas on a grot mega tank isnt bad at all. Ive had a lot of great success with that unit, but if it still works on AoC armies, we will have to see.
My experience in the last 2-3 months with AoR was pretty nice until AoC. Then I faced a 1k sons that basically was killing himself on perils more than I could with all my shooting.
My list was the typical AoR with freebootas
Bikerboss BBK and killklaw
Bikerboss with banner andd -1 to wound
3*5bikers
3*scrapjets
2*squig
2*KBB 2*snazz
5boomboys koptas
1boomboy wazboom
1dakkajet
Or something of the like. On paper not a bad list, albeit sort on bikers for obsec. It could maybe trade 2snazzs for 2*3 nob bikers.
Only unit I managed to kill were some chaos spawns.
After that I tried against a similar list with a Goff pressure (other friend's) and at least I managed to kill a blob of termis and a couple of units. Also lost the match but at least it only felt like hard mode, not ironman mode.
When shall these new Missions atc drops? The fact it, I have no reason to change or experiment with my list for oong time already…. Some fresh wind could be fine..
Hey everyone, I have a 1500 points game tomorrow against imperial knights. Now this is the first game against them and I have absolutely no idea what to play against them. Snakebites? Freebootaz? Goff? Massive Anti tank, swarm them, try to outmaneuver?
I'd avoid Freebooterz just for the fact that triggering the trait would be pretty hard against knights, I'd choose Bad Moons for a pure shooting force at that point.
Hey everyone, I have a 1500 points game tomorrow against imperial knights. Now this is the first game against them and I have absolutely no idea what to play against them. Snakebites? Freebootaz? Goff? Massive Anti tank, swarm them, try to outmaneuver?
Thank you very much I appreciate it!!
Agree with avoiding freebootas, but outside of that pretty much just use the clan that synergizes best with your army. As usual, wazbomms and mek guns are decent answer to anything trying to be durable.
I was on a small local tournament with my FB Speed Mob today and finished 4th from 12 with 2 wins and one lose.
Game 1 - Nuns with Guns 15:5 for orks. What ' s the problem with Armor of Compensation? Just shoot them down and screen them from charging your valuable units.
Game 2 - Tau + much better opponent + few stupid ork fails (like forget to cover the Warboss before declaring Speedwaaaagh..) on the beginning = 0:20 for Tau. I now how to make the game 15:5 for Tau but no better. Have to think about it.
Game 3 - Necrons with double C' Tan list. C 'Tans vomit their mortal wounds around, but Koptas + Ramming Speed + Crashing thru = nice way to go around “max 3 wounds lost per phase”. 12:8 for orks. Could be better, but the second C' Tan saved everything for 2 turns. Pure nightmare.
Lessons learned and notes:
- the longer I play Badskull Banner Warboss on Warbike - aka Obsec - Antiobsec missile - the more I like it. Usually let them covering home objective with anti obsec aura protecting the base againts some crazy charges in first few turns. Than he goes forward and turns the objectives. The key is do not send him forward too early, he dies easily. First clean the table a bit.
- I played very defensively and it is very effective. Better wait for a turn to have the right constelation to finish stuff. We die fast, most of the trades do not worth the points.
- SJD do not inflict any damage. Again. I don' t remember this buggy did some damage last time. And if you want it to teleport itself, it never goes. Pffff
- BSW - I like this buggy more and more. Perfect utility buggy to sit somewhere or block somewhere and do some damage for nice price.
- wazbooms are the key. Give them perfect 3+hit one turn of shooting and keep them safe for any costs! Crucial!!!
Another notes .. or more a manual how I play AoR Speed Mob with the list in spoiler.
I. You want everything on the table. Unless your opponent is able to kill one both of your wazbooms going first T1. Than both wazbooms and Koptas in DS. This protect them and give the scrapjets and other buggies chance to hide.
II. Secondaries
1. 12VP on some killy secondary? Take it. Unless Assasinate on eldars. They hide like a hell. Or I shall practice more 2. 12VP on No Prisoners? Necrons usually? Take them. Otherwise take To The Last on 2 Koptas and 1 Scrapjets
3. Mighty 3rd secondary. You choose from Stranglehold, Engage and Bitz
- good situation for Bitz ? = Bitz objective far from the opponent with good cover and opponent is slow and unable to get there quickly? Take bitz and protect these bikers for any costs. Win you a game.
- 5 objective mission and opponent is short on obsec? Take Stranglehold
- non of above? Take Engage.
- bikers. They just screen and score. Rush them forward immediateli. Do not charge. Just drive 20”, some dakka and screen/block
- single buggies - this is just supporting body of the army. One of them is always useless depending the opponent. This keep home to hold objective and screen deploy. The rest move gently around the board to screen perfectly, block the movement, hold objectives in the second wave and kill something sometimes. You can trade them.
- scrapjets, koptas and wazbooms - this is your army. This is your dakka. T1 to T2 is about carefoul positioning and protecting them and looking for the right moment to attack. Sometimes it is turn 1, sometimes you need to wait until T3. And then come the Mighty Turns of Speedwaagh. The turns, when these units go and kill most of the units that threaten you. Priorities:
—- units that can kill vehicles
—- units that fly / now you ' ve protected wazbooms
—- units that are fast / now you ' re faster then him and deny him big part of the field
—- units that score
- 2 warbosses - protect them first. Than call the speedwaagh and the Mighty Turns come. First turns keep them around home objective to protect it againts some wild charges that pretty often go againts you. Kill warboss kills. Anti Obsec biker behind the wall holds the objective.
After enemy charges are stopped, push the, forward to control the midfield objectives and deny the points to your opponent.
III. Command Points management
- spare all points on Kopta trick. It doesn 't win you a game, but if you don' t do it right, you gonna lose.
- no rerolls of anything
- no strategems except - attack out of the sun, ramming speed, crashing thru
- exception are - in critical situations or later part of the game “More gitz over there”, overwatch on 3 scrapjets or flamer buggy etc - the condition is, that the overwatch has a real chance to KILL or totaly criple the attacker, reroll of the number of shots from Wazbooms TMB - but have a plan with CPs to have the right number left for another turn for kopta tricks!
You have 8 + 5 = 13 CP' s
Full Kopta trick cost you 2x2 for AOOTS, 2 for RS and 1 for CT = 7 CP. so you can do it once. This should be a valuable target for their MW charge. Not just some screening.
You have another 3 CP to do the RS and CT missile again after drop, but then you are mostly out of CPs. Maybe you have 2 left for evacuation of this Koptas, but this should be T4… But it is mostly T3. The rest of the CPs will be used slowly during the rest of the game for “exceptions”. Be carefoul! You have a plan for another turn with your Koptas. You need a CPs for this!
Hey everyone, I have a 1500 points game tomorrow against imperial knights. Now this is the first game against them and I have absolutely no idea what to play against them. Snakebites? Freebootaz? Goff? Massive Anti tank, swarm them, try to outmaneuver?
Thank you very much I appreciate it!!
I'll parrot everyone else and say to avoid freebooters. I'd either say Goffs or Bad Moons, but ultimately it depends on your list.
Without seeing your list, I'd say you're probably not going to outshoot them or kill them all. Kill what you can without putting too many units on offer, but ultimately feed them units they're not going to wipe in a single turn of combat and dance around them to win the VP game.
Knights are a gatekeeper list, and we have the quick, cheap, but surprisingly durable units to outplay them.
Hey everyone, I have a 1500 points game tomorrow against imperial knights. Now this is the first game against them and I have absolutely no idea what to play against them. Snakebites? Freebootaz? Goff? Massive Anti tank, swarm them, try to outmaneuver?
Thank you very much I appreciate it!!
No idea what list you have. But I can tell you how to fight with them.
1. All contemporary knight armies have 2-3 big knights. Mostly 3. The rest of their army all small knights, about 5-7 pieces.
2. His plan is go to the 3 objectives and stand and score there.
3. You need to kill the small ones first. And ASAP. Why?
- they have much more dangerous damage per point ration than the big ones. This is the only way how to reduce his shooting fast. They are faster and more dangerous. And OBSEC and count as 5 models.
4. This mean, if you want to steal them objective, you need obsec + 6 models. So typycal 5 model squads of kommandos, stormboyz, etc do not work. Warbikers in squads of 3 even less. This mean btw. that obsec + antiobsec FB warboss on warbike in speed mob is pretty useful there.
5. Remember - big knights = TITANIC = cannot hide behind obscuring, but you can! + they can walk over models + they can fallback and shoot and charge. So you can screen their movement well, but not by line of small models in front of him, but by a cloud of models denying him to put his base there.
6. SMALL KNIGHTS ARE NOT TITANIC so you can block their move normaly.
7. Some of the big knights can heroicly interven! Screen in distance!
8. Plan is to blovk thier move asap and shoot down the small knights asap. This criple his shooting and scoring abilities. I guess our army has no chance to kill them all, but kill all small ones + one big knights is pretty doable.
9. You win on VPs, not on killpoints. So score, deny his scoring and you win.
And I use Freebootas againts them and works with my speedmob pretty well. Two squads of deffkoptas + some buggy postively kills one small knight at least. This trigger the bonus and wazbooms kills anothers. Plus the antiobsec banner is pretty good.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Afrodactyl wrote: ….Kill what you can without putting too many units on offer, but ultimately feed them units they're not going to wipe in a single turn of combat and dance around them to win the VP game.
Hey everyone, I have a 1500 points game tomorrow against imperial knights. Now this is the first game against them and I have absolutely no idea what to play against them. Snakebites? Freebootaz? Goff? Massive Anti tank, swarm them, try to outmaneuver?
Thank you very much I appreciate it!!
Grot tanks (with many, but not all, KMB), Mek Gunz, Wazbombs, and if you're allowed Legends then add Grot Kannon, Grot Zap Gunz & Grot Bomb Launchers.
My Grots LOVE fighting Knights.
I was on a small local tournament with my FB Speed Mob today and finished 4th from 12 with 2 wins and one lose.
Game 1 - Nuns with Guns 15:5 for orks. What ' s the problem with Armor of Compensation? Just shoot them down and screen them from charging your valuable units.
Game 2 - Tau + much better opponent + few stupid ork fails (like forget to cover the Warboss before declaring Speedwaaaagh..) on the beginning = 0:20 for Tau. I now how to make the game 15:5 for Tau but no better. Have to think about it.
Game 3 - Necrons with double C' Tan list. C 'Tans vomit their mortal wounds around, but Koptas + Ramming Speed + Crashing thru = nice way to go around “max 3 wounds lost per phase”. 12:8 for orks. Could be better, but the second C' Tan saved everything for 2 turns. Pure nightmare.
Lessons learned and notes:
- the longer I play Badskull Banner Warboss on Warbike - aka Obsec - Antiobsec missile - the more I like it. Usually let them covering home objective with anti obsec aura protecting the base againts some crazy charges in first few turns. Than he goes forward and turns the objectives. The key is do not send him forward too early, he dies easily. First clean the table a bit.
- I played very defensively and it is very effective. Better wait for a turn to have the right constelation to finish stuff. We die fast, most of the trades do not worth the points.
- SJD do not inflict any damage. Again. I don' t remember this buggy did some damage last time. And if you want it to teleport itself, it never goes. Pffff
- BSW - I like this buggy more and more. Perfect utility buggy to sit somewhere or block somewhere and do some damage for nice price.
- wazbooms are the key. Give them perfect 3+hit one turn of shooting and keep them safe for any costs! Crucial!!!
Another notes .. or more a manual how I play AoR Speed Mob with the list in spoiler.
I. You want everything on the table. Unless your opponent is able to kill one both of your wazbooms going first T1. Than both wazbooms and Koptas in DS. This protect them and give the scrapjets and other buggies chance to hide.
II. Secondaries
1. 12VP on some killy secondary? Take it. Unless Assasinate on eldars. They hide like a hell. Or I shall practice more 2. 12VP on No Prisoners? Necrons usually? Take them. Otherwise take To The Last on 2 Koptas and 1 Scrapjets
3. Mighty 3rd secondary. You choose from Stranglehold, Engage and Bitz
- good situation for Bitz ? = Bitz objective far from the opponent with good cover and opponent is slow and unable to get there quickly? Take bitz and protect these bikers for any costs. Win you a game.
- 5 objective mission and opponent is short on obsec? Take Stranglehold
- non of above? Take Engage.
- bikers. They just screen and score. Rush them forward immediateli. Do not charge. Just drive 20”, some dakka and screen/block
- single buggies - this is just supporting body of the army. One of them is always useless depending the opponent. This keep home to hold objective and screen deploy. The rest move gently around the board to screen perfectly, block the movement, hold objectives in the second wave and kill something sometimes. You can trade them.
- scrapjets, koptas and wazbooms - this is your army. This is your dakka. T1 to T2 is about carefoul positioning and protecting them and looking for the right moment to attack. Sometimes it is turn 1, sometimes you need to wait until T3. And then come the Mighty Turns of Speedwaagh. The turns, when these units go and kill most of the units that threaten you. Priorities:
—- units that can kill vehicles
—- units that fly / now you ' ve protected wazbooms
—- units that are fast / now you ' re faster then him and deny him big part of the field
—- units that score
- 2 warbosses - protect them first. Than call the speedwaagh and the Mighty Turns come. First turns keep them around home objective to protect it againts some wild charges that pretty often go againts you. Kill warboss kills. Anti Obsec biker behind the wall holds the objective.
After enemy charges are stopped, push the, forward to control the midfield objectives and deny the points to your opponent.
III. Command Points management
- spare all points on Kopta trick. It doesn 't win you a game, but if you don' t do it right, you gonna lose.
- no rerolls of anything
- no strategems except - attack out of the sun, ramming speed, crashing thru
- exception are - in critical situations or later part of the game “More gitz over there”, overwatch on 3 scrapjets or flamer buggy etc - the condition is, that the overwatch has a real chance to KILL or totaly criple the attacker, reroll of the number of shots from Wazbooms TMB - but have a plan with CPs to have the right number left for another turn for kopta tricks!
You have 8 + 5 = 13 CP' s
Full Kopta trick cost you 2x2 for AOOTS, 2 for RS and 1 for CT = 7 CP. so you can do it once. This should be a valuable target for their MW charge. Not just some screening.
You have another 3 CP to do the RS and CT missile again after drop, but then you are mostly out of CPs. Maybe you have 2 left for evacuation of this Koptas, but this should be T4… But it is mostly T3. The rest of the CPs will be used slowly during the rest of the game for “exceptions”. Be carefoul! You have a plan for another turn with your Koptas. You need a CPs for this!
Interesting points as always Tomsung.
After the positive showing from multiple nob bike squads a few weeks ago I created a list that is somewhere in between that list and yours
I find boomboy deffkoptas are pretty good against AoC. The Nobs on bikes while bizarre are great for holding backfield objectives and getting engage and even if they'r down to one model can cause problems if you just throw them onto objectives (sometimes with drive by dakka).
The major problem is that I'm starting with 9Cp. I always want to put my wazbomm (for safety) and one squad of bikes into reserve to "guarantee" that I can drop them in for RnD in t2/3. This cost 2CP. Assuming the new changes to warlord and relics costing points are true I'm down to to 0Cp if we start with 7cp or even -1 CP if we only start with 6CP.
I actually am interested to play this list with 0 CP as it will really mix up strategy but I'm hoping we don't go down as low as 6cp starting as it will cause real sophies choice situations involving BBK or killa klaw...
yeah....im not looking forward to that cp change. I'm all for blocking people from spamming stratagems in the first turn to maximize the alpha strike (still say thats one of the biggest issues in 40k is alphastrike potential the entire-army-goes-at-once system allows), but THAT low a cp cuts into typical list building costs too. Unless they make detachments/reserves/relics/certain unit upgrades cheaper, people are gonna be extremely tight on cp if not flatout out of them at the start.
'Cause Orks are really incentivized to take a single battalion. I get these changes aren't targeting Orks per se but carte blanche changes like this really fundamentally misunderstand the diversity of GWs codexes.
Like this seems tuned to armies that have a desirable elite slot and not much else.
Considering you cant get more than 3 FA/Heavy w/o multiple detachments or one that doesnt refund, yeah, definitely.
And we orks dont really care about our elites. Go figure.
Yeah, having that confirmed for no detachment CP cost changes seems rough. At that point, the 1 Warboss per detachment limitation seems overly harsh, since you'll be lucky to have 2 max in most cases, unless you run them completely barebones which doesn't tap into the relics making them actually useful. We'll really have to bank on our secondaries being relevant somehow to transition through this change somewhat intact, cause it's looking even rougher for us greenskins.
I actually am interested to play this list with 0 CP as it will really mix up strategy but I'm hoping we don't go down as low as 6cp starting as it will cause real sophies choice situations involving BBK or killa klaw...
Speedmobz need to find a way to play with a single outrider detachment to survive, aka revamping wagons and/or playing with fewer but larger FA units. Two outriders means 0 CPs already with no CPs to invest pre game, no defensive stratagem in turn 1 if you start second, or any 2CPs stratagem in turn 1.
At the FLGS last night somebody had a "leaked" copy of points changes, not sure if it was legitimate or not, but if so keep them expectations low. boys down... 1 point, gretchin stay the same, beast boys same a few buggies down 5 points. wazboom up another 10, hqs got a 5-10 point cut across the board and nobz down a point per model. cannot validate as it was a white backed pdf so take it with a shovel of salt and hope its better.
G00fySmiley wrote: At the FLGS last night somebody had a "leaked" copy of points changes, not sure if it was legitimate or not, but if so keep them expectations low. boys down... 1 point, gretchin stay the same, beast boys same a few buggies down 5 points. wazboom up another 10, hqs got a 5-10 point cut across the board and nobz down a point per model. cannot validate as it was a white backed pdf so take it with a shovel of salt and hope its better.
These kinds of changes are what I fear for orks. A point here or there isn’t going to help.
G00fySmiley wrote: At the FLGS last night somebody had a "leaked" copy of points changes, not sure if it was legitimate or not, but if so keep them expectations low. boys down... 1 point, gretchin stay the same, beast boys same a few buggies down 5 points. wazboom up another 10, hqs got a 5-10 point cut across the board and nobz down a point per model. cannot validate as it was a white backed pdf so take it with a shovel of salt and hope its better.
These kinds of changes are what I fear for orks. A point here or there isn’t going to help.
I am hoping its somebody having a laugh "leaking" a pdf. space marines got some significant points cuts if its real mostly in the vehicle department which to be fair is needed there. might actually see predators on the field for them again
However, you can now take a Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment at no CP cost if it matches your WARLORD’s faction – great news for Knight players in Incursion games.
G00fySmiley wrote: At the FLGS last night somebody had a "leaked" copy of points changes, not sure if it was legitimate or not, but if so keep them expectations low. boys down... 1 point, gretchin stay the same, beast boys same a few buggies down 5 points. wazboom up another 10, hqs got a 5-10 point cut across the board and nobz down a point per model. cannot validate as it was a white backed pdf so take it with a shovel of salt and hope its better.
If true, unless Ork secondaries are a joke to obtain 45 with, boy howdy, you think our win rate is bad now.
On top of all this, the book features nine missions each for Incursion and Strike Force games, tweaked and revised where necessary from last season’s Grand Tournament mission pack. It also includes the Warhammer 40,000 core rules – paired with your faction’s codex, you’ll have everything you’ll need to play your way through a tournament.
Long-time competitive players will notice that the Munitorum Field Manual is absent – fear not! This season brings with it our first free points update. The entire points update document will be available to download in a digital format from this very website, so players who want the latest points changes for their matched play games will have free and easy access.
I 'm very interested in secondafy changes.
In any case the rise of the named characters with built in traits and relic is here. It is a pitty, there is no such for speedmob…
Automatically Appended Next Post: Aaargh at least the WAGON keyword for Kanonwagon please! Otherwise there is really a hard way to make a working Speedmob!
Hard to say how these changes will impact Orks, on the face of it its going to hurt our ability to take multiple detachments meaning we can't take multiple warbosses and/or specialist mobs.
This is probably going to mean you end up taking a Supreme Command with Ghaz & a battalion. Which isn't great given how weak our troop options are, obviously will also hinge on the points situation.
Ork boyz as it stands need to come down at least 2 points to make anyone want to take them.
It's also going to hinge a lot on the secondaries we end up getting, my biggest concern is going to the balance between these faction specific secondaries. I hope they tested them very vigorously, if your faction has bad ones its going to bad times for the next 6 months.
Having said all of that, we are a dataslate codex, we don't rely on synergies and stratagems in the same way other codexes do, so It might not be as doom and gloom as it seems.
Other factions have warlord traits and relics they need to take, think about things like having to pay CP for forgeworld units now, this change probably terminates those units to the dustbin for 6 months.
Other factions also heavily rely on burning through CP in the first couple of turns, something that doesn't really effect us. Unless you are talking Speed Waagh which was killed the day AoC dropped.
I'll be interested to see what they do, filled with a curious mixture of excitement and dread.
Odd limit of 1 relic and 1 warlord trait is super bad….
Who knows maybe we can take a free relic with a detachment… in the detachment rules….
Also the point leaks sound like a prior rumor I read however any points leak has nothing to do with this book… it’s likely just a playtester version that is unlikely finalized… still though wtf are you increasing points on ANY ork unit. We are bad making semi decent units cost more is messed up…. The wazbom doesn’t need to be screwed it’s already pricey and fragile… the dakkajet is cheap for its profile but the reason we take the wazbom is because it’s one of the few units we have that can do anything in this meta… it’s not because it’s underpriced!!!!
Ffs none of the playtesters or GW rules team have any idea how to play orks or what to do with them!
Can someone explain how you benefit from selecting a clan while in AOR speedmob?
Like do you just gain access to the strategems?
Basically you get access to strats, warlord traits and relics.
And for instance, wagons and fliers do not get adrenaline junkies, so they get to keep their culture.
An example, I usually run freebootas AoR for the skull banner on a bikerboss and for my planes to shoot with +1 if the rest kills anything.
Or blood axes to redeploy 3 units so my planes can start for free on reserves and my wagon can retreat and charge afterwards.
Interesting times indeed as we really needed a Secondary overhaul. Yet it´s fiendishly complicated to balance this between all factions!
The step forward isn´t the secondaries as is, but the fact that GW has realized how pivotal they are to the game and moving them into the seasonal updating is helping to fix the issue faster. Good thinking there. Basically it´s the same thing as the points update and erratas, but recognized as a pain point.
The new missions give players 2CPs per turn though (one is gained in the opponent's turn), so it's just like drastically reducing the pre-game investment rather than the overall pool. Single battallion, one trait and one relic could be ok. With two traits and two relics we'd still start with 3CPs in turn 1.
More than competitiveness I'm a bit worried about several units that would be almost removed from the game. With very limited FA and HS a lot of units from those sections that were ok and cheap won't see the tables now. For example with just 3 HS I don't see how I can fit units like Kanz, Dreads, Stormboyz, multiple squads of bikes and multiple kinds of buggies. And that's a shame, internal balance is IMHO the best thing orks have in this edition.
This assuming that Extra Gubbinz and/or Big Boss still work. If not, aka armies are limited with just one trait and relic, going patrol + outrider/spearhead could still be fine. With a CP gained in the opponent's command phase we'd still have 2CPs to pop a defensive stratagem in turn 1 if we go second or 2CPs to invest in offensive stratagems if we go first.
I think i might not be too bad off with my Blood axes Speed mob maybe now that i think about it.
2 outriders, 1 is free. Relic and warlord trait for my .. well warlord thats 5CP total.
Since i intended to play blood axes i would use the finkin' cap for extra CP generation per round, and i would use the warlord trait to reduce a stratagems cost by 1, each round as well.
Maybe losing 5 CP to begin with but having those traits/relics makes it okay in the end. Though i would have to give up Speed King warlord trait.
Not a new player but I might as well be since I have played 9th this week-end for the first time. I deliberately went with a very weak old school list and lost a lot. (Well you were supposed to come with a weak list, but you know how this kind of things go...)
Anyway, my question is how do you hold on objectives? I mean, taking them is a thing, but holding them till next turn seems really hard with orks.
In a more general way, out of curiosity, what's the current way to play the green lads? Multiple MSU? (Kommandos, stormz...)
Well that’s the rub… most warlord traits and relics are going to never be taken at best you are going to see every codex default to the 1 best relics/warlord traits.. there might be a situational issue like bloodaxe where a specific faction has a better relic/warlord trait but for orks you are going to see everyone using BBK as the default unless they want the blood skull version. But the cool Addons people use to take like faster then yoos in speed mob or ard as nails on beastboss on squig or speedking there is absolutely no reason to take.
IronSlug wrote: Not a new player but I might as well be since I have played 9th this week-end for the first time. I deliberately went with a very weak old school list and lost a lot. (Well you were supposed to come with a weak list, but you know how this kind of things go...)
Anyway, my question is how do you hold on objectives? I mean, taking them is a thing, but holding them till next turn seems really hard with orks.
In a more general way, out of curiosity, what's the current way to play the green lads? Multiple MSU? (Kommandos, stormz...)
Realistically we're holding objectives with tougher units like our characters, buggies and MANz, or we're relying on killing everything around the objective so nothing of the opponent's can hold it or contest it.
Question:
If you dont keep squig buggies at the backline but drive them around as an actual combat buggy that needs line of sight to avoid the negative nerf from shooting without line of sight, are they better or worse, than snazzwagons?
The squig buggies still hit on 4s then, with some shots at least, and do have a CC attack.
Beardedragon wrote: Question:
If you dont keep squig buggies at the backline but drive them around as an actual combat buggy that needs line of sight to avoid the negative nerf from shooting without line of sight, are they better or worse, than snazzwagons?
The squig buggies still hit on 4s then, with some shots at least, and do have a CC attack.
I think the problem is that at the current cost (which was priced for how they had the premium ability of shooting out of LoS, which is now super nerfed) I can't see them being cost efficient to take and taking Nitro Squigs further inflates that cost.
Beardedragon wrote: Question:
If you dont keep squig buggies at the backline but drive them around as an actual combat buggy that needs line of sight to avoid the negative nerf from shooting without line of sight, are they better or worse, than snazzwagons?
The squig buggies still hit on 4s then, with some shots at least, and do have a CC attack.
Worse. The saws are nice to have, but the snazzwagon has -1 to hit and can fire everything but burna bottles while locked in combat.
If you are looking for a buggy to drive about, take pot shots at things and ram saws into weak units, the SJD is better.
With the squig buggy you are paying a lot of points for the ability to snipe MEQ without LoS that no longer exists. Not worth it IMO.
Beardedragon wrote: Question:
If you dont keep squig buggies at the backline but drive them around as an actual combat buggy that needs line of sight to avoid the negative nerf from shooting without line of sight, are they better or worse, than snazzwagons?
The squig buggies still hit on 4s then, with some shots at least, and do have a CC attack.
Worse. The saws are nice to have, but the snazzwagon has -1 to hit and can fire everything but burna bottles while locked in combat.
If you are looking for a buggy to drive about, take pot shots at things and ram saws into weak units, the SJD is better.
With the squig buggy you are paying a lot of points for the ability to snipe MEQ without LoS that no longer exists. Not worth it IMO.
That was my fear but i hadnt really done the math if the snazzwagon was actually surperior if you used the squig buggy as a combat buggy
Beardedragon wrote: Question:
If you dont keep squig buggies at the backline but drive them around as an actual combat buggy that needs line of sight to avoid the negative nerf from shooting without line of sight, are they better or worse, than snazzwagons?
The squig buggies still hit on 4s then, with some shots at least, and do have a CC attack.
Worse. The saws are nice to have, but the snazzwagon has -1 to hit and can fire everything but burna bottles while locked in combat.
If you are looking for a buggy to drive about, take pot shots at things and ram saws into weak units, the SJD is better.
With the squig buggy you are paying a lot of points for the ability to snipe MEQ without LoS that no longer exists. Not worth it IMO.
Right, but in CC you hit on 6s, so nothing incredible. On the other hand, squigb have saws AND a squig mine. The potential 1d3 mortal wounds are always welcomed.
I agree on the cost though given current indirect fire rule. At 90, as it was, would be a good contender.
Beardedragon wrote: That was my fear but i hadnt really done the math if the snazzwagon was actually surperior if you used the squig buggy as a combat buggy
Actually, I didn't do the math either, I just happend to have the two alongside each other in a crusade that ended recently - plenty of games to compare the two
The snazzwagon isn't going to perform any miracles, but it simply brings the right stuff for the correct amount of points.
Beardedragon wrote: That was my fear but i hadnt really done the math if the snazzwagon was actually surperior if you used the squig buggy as a combat buggy
Actually, I didn't do the math either, I just happend to have the two alongside each other in a crusade that ended recently - plenty of games to compare the two
The snazzwagon isn't going to perform any miracles, but it simply brings the right stuff for the correct amount of points.
really? I always thought it didnt have enough shots for hitting on 5s. I figured it should have like 20 shots at half range rather than 14. But at the same time i dont have a snazzwagon yet.
Beardedragon wrote: That was my fear but i hadnt really done the math if the snazzwagon was actually surperior if you used the squig buggy as a combat buggy
Actually, I didn't do the math either, I just happend to have the two alongside each other in a crusade that ended recently - plenty of games to compare the two
The snazzwagon isn't going to perform any miracles, but it simply brings the right stuff for the correct amount of points.
really? I always thought it didnt have enough shots for hitting on 5s. I figured it should have like 20 shots at half range rather than 14. But at the same time i dont have a snazzwagon yet.
It's a pretty solid buggy. I generally use it to screen, kill chaff screens, or to chip bulky units. If you keep your distance a bit, it is actually surprisingly durable and can draw a good amount of firepower.
I only really use it in melee when it's acting as a speedbump, or late game when I'm trying to clean up or make a last minute grab for an objective. The volume of fire on the Speshul and the Big Shoota actually kind of makes up for the lack of a ram or actual melee weapon.
I agree on the cost though given current indirect fire rule. At 90, as it was, would be a good contender.
If it was 90 and, most importantly, we could still burn CPs for multiple detachments, I'd include one squigbuggy everytime. Indirect fire has been nerfed but there's a lot of squishy scoring or annoying infantries (anything with 5+ or 6+ save) that might be hard to catch and it's good against them. With the current points and the upcoming limitations on CPs I think the squigbuggy will be parked in the mekboy garage until the new codex .
Hi, I'm quite new to Orks (and 9th ed), nothing serious mostly casual gaming.
I'm looking for some advice about what to buy next, I've got:
1 Big Mek w/ Kustom Force Field
1 Zodgrod Wortsnagga (going to convert to Weirdboy)
1 Trukk
1 Boomdakka Snazzwagons
1 Deff Dreads
3 Deffkoptas
5 Nobz (going to use for some kitbash)
6 Warbikes
10 Kommandos
15 Gretchin
20 Lootas
40 Boyz (old)
My options are
- Beastboss on Squigosaur + 2x Beast Snagga Boys
- Deffkilla Wartrike and a pair of buggies (which ones after the recent changes?)
- more koptas and a jet
- a battlewagon and Ghazgkull
- mek gunz and MANs
(or a mix of these, approximately 200$/€)
Sorry that's a lot of different options but I'm still figuring out where to go with them
Thank you in advance
My options are
- Beastboss on Squigosaur + 2x Beast Snagga Boys
- Deffkilla Wartrike and a pair of buggies (which ones after the recent changes?)
- more koptas and a jet
- a battlewagon and Ghazgkull
- mek gunz and MANs
(or a mix of these, approximately 200$/€)
All solid/recommended units to have. You might consider a warboss in megarmour instead of the squigrider one and to add the best snaggas later since you don't really need those.
About the buggies I'd start with a couple of scrapjets, which are the most versatile buggies. I'd avoid getting two different buggies since with the upcoming changes saving slots (fast attack ones in this case) might be key. And I'd recommend a couple of scrapjets to anyone anyway.
G00fySmiley wrote: At the FLGS last night somebody had a "leaked" copy of points changes, not sure if it was legitimate or not, but if so keep them expectations low. boys down... 1 point, gretchin stay the same, beast boys same a few buggies down 5 points. wazboom up another 10, hqs got a 5-10 point cut across the board and nobz down a point per model. cannot validate as it was a white backed pdf so take it with a shovel of salt and hope its better.
10 points off the SAG would be neat. I'd be keen to include him somewhere. Additional 10 points on a Wazbom hurts me, though.
Yeah, SAG would need to go to really old prices of around 85-90 points with the kustom job to be in the sweet spot for being useful without being overbearing or too cheap.
IronSlug wrote: Not a new player but I might as well be since I have played 9th this week-end for the first time. I deliberately went with a very weak old school list and lost a lot. (Well you were supposed to come with a weak list, but you know how this kind of things go...)
Anyway, my question is how do you hold on objectives? I mean, taking them is a thing, but holding them till next turn seems really hard with orks.
I park a truck full of 'Orrible Git Grots on the objective & do my best to kill any opposition trying to contest it or that could reach it.
Sometimes this truck will be upgraded with the 5++ save Kustom Job (depends upon wich truck was still alive/within range of the objective). And if the trucks popped? Now there's a bunch of obsec grots to be cleared away.
Unless there's a pressing reason to disembark (like they need to perform an action)? My grots remain in their trucks until blown out. The truck can hold an uncontested objective just as well as the much more squishy grots & with or without the 5++ save it still takes more killing than they do.
If the grots do willingly disembark? Then they do so with the truck shielding them as much as possible. Grots small, truck larger, sometimes it helps block the enemies LoS....
And if the grots are on the ground? Then I really double down on killing whatever's near that objective/has LoS to the grots.
Grimskul wrote: Yeah, SAG would need to go to really old prices of around 85-90 points with the kustom job to be in the sweet spot for being useful without being overbearing or too cheap.
Well, if you are blood axe, you can least make it immune to shooting
Grimskul wrote: Yeah, SAG would need to go to really old prices of around 85-90 points with the kustom job to be in the sweet spot for being useful without being overbearing or too cheap.
Well, if you are blood axe, you can least make it immune to shooting
Haha true! Though keep it down or that's the next thing they'll take away from us in the next update
Marshall Peterson 5th on Wargames for Warriors 2022
Do you expect another victory with his Blood Axe list? No! He changed to goffs. Still a lot of MW tricks, but very different list!
However, he ' s the only one in CI. On other hand, I see a lot of names used to be a ork warbosses driving the different factions now. The longer I do this report from CI the more I think “win rate per faction from the top tables” is a nonsence stat. These kids just switch to the most competitive faction with the tide and that is it. If orks became slightly more comp they will play them tomorrow. The the winrate will jump to the sky. There is not so much corelation between “how the faction is strong” and the win rate imho. The winners of the tournaments are the best players generaly (and that is right) and this dudes simply play one of the top 5 because they want to play top tables. So the more will the comp warhammer rise, the more “crazy win rates of top 5 armies” will appear.
To have a more cleare view, we need the stat “put 10% on the both sides - best and the worst out and make win rate from this”. Which is actually the basic rule of doing any serious statistic.
If we want to see real win rates, we need to make it so, players have to choose the faction for the whole year and keep it to make top players try hard and play with the suboptimal factions.
Well spotted Tomsug. Many top players are not only skilled, but also driven to win and hence play more, get better and win more. They just see the armies as a bunch of tools to be picked from. Whatever is best for the moment. This will skew statistics if you zero in on only the winning/top5 players & armies indeed.
After seeing Abbadon's leaked stats and points value, I really hope they chop like 50 points off Ghazzy's price because there's no way he's worth 300 when someone like Abbadon is 300 and has pretty much the wacky stats of all the weird rules buff trends of 9th ed stacked onto one model.
Grimskul wrote: After seeing Abbadon's leaked stats and points value, I really hope they chop like 50 points off Ghazzy's price because there's no way he's worth 300 when someone like Abbadon is 300 and has pretty much the wacky stats of all the weird rules buff trends of 9th ed stacked onto one model.
I doubt it, Ghaz already sees the tables pretty often, even at competitive levels. At best it might become 280 or 290 points. If Abbadon is so good that dominates for a while he'll get a price hike at some point instead.
Points changes, especially significant ones, can be expected for units that no one takes or units that are taken in smaller numbers than what GW expects people to field, like boyz. It's units like the SAG, boyz, burnaboyz, lootas, nauts, banner nob, painboy, etc... that could likely get some price cut. Probably not the stompa, which is hopeless . Maybe tankbustas, if bomb squigs go up.
Eh, more likely they will nerf-slap him with a 100 points increase after people start running him alongside chaos knights or some other dumb constellation.
Jidmah wrote: Eh, more likely they will nerf-slap him with a 100 points increase after people start running him alongside chaos knights or some other dumb constellation.
True. GW tends to nerf things rather than give ridiculous points cuts unless it's the first codex release. We'll see how fast GW reacts to Abby if he does turn out to be overtuned like Trajann was when he was first released with the new Custodes codex.
Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote: I just saw Abbadons datasheet, 300pts. He smashes Ghazz any day of the week twice over.
Not really?
We'll be kind and assume Abaddon gets the charge and used his RR hits buff on himself:
1st round: 8 attacks from Abaddon with Drach'nyen, they all hit after rerolls, 5 wound, Ghaz saves 2-3, he takes 4 wounds at most even if Drach MWs triggered, 8 wounds remain. Ghaz returns fire, all 6 attacks hit after rerolls, 4 wound, Abby saves 2 and negates the damage from the first one, hits his max 3 wounds for the phase - 6 wounds left on Abby.
2nd round: Another 8 from Abaddon, another 4 wounds on Ghaz, he has 4 wounds left. Ghaz is bracketed now, but gaining an attack while his wound roll stays the same (3+ due to Abaddon's weirdly worded rule) means he's actually averaging better than the first round (potentially wounding with 5 attacks instead of 4), but all that means is he has a more comfortable margin of error against the damage null and 4++. Abaddon has 3 wounds left.
3rd round: Abby's performance doesn't drop, and he kills Ghaz this round. Since he charged 2 player turns ago, Abby's the active player and gets priority for choosing when to fight.
That's just the numbers on a straight up fight, no shooting prior (Ghaz has the advantage here, he's got an extra 1" of movement and 12" of range and can run around Abby until he's plinked enough wounds to confirm advantage in CC, though Abaddon can catch up with the right Advance rolls). If Ghaz gets the charge or interrupts, Abby dies - Ghaz is still averaging 2-3 failed saves against Abaddon. CP rerolls on invuln saves also make a difference though they favor Abaddon as Ghaz is only getting 1-2 failed saves past the damage null at best, while Ghaz is living entirely off his max 4 damage effect.
Abaddon has a just over 92% chance of maxing 4 wounds on Ghaz in a fight phase.
Ghaz has a just over 67% chance of getting two wounds (so 3 damage) on Abaddon at 5 attacks. 77% at 6 attacks. And 72% at 7 attacks, since his wound chance goes down.
Ghaz's shooting averages 2/9ths of a point of damage to Abaddon outside half range, .30 points of damage inside. (Assuming Armor Of Contempt sticks around-double that without it.) But that's without factoring in Abaddon's Mark... With that Mark, he's got a 2% chance of dealing damage to Abaddon with shooting at 18-36 inches, and 3.46% at 18 or less inches. However, he does have about a one in four chance of doing a failed save within 18", which won't do damage, but WILL make it easier to deal damage on the charge.
Definitely a power creep issue for sure. My issue with ghaz is he really just lacks extra rules. For the supreme ork that unifies all klans he doesn’t have many buffs or deal MWs, have a sweep profile or do much else than being a large beat stick.
Dr.Duck wrote: Definitely a power creep issue for sure. My issue with ghaz is he really just lacks extra rules. For the supreme ork that unifies all klans he doesn’t have many buffs or deal MWs, have a sweep profile or do much else than being a large beat stick.
Abbadon has like at least twice as much text.
Yeah, my main contention with Ghazzy is that neither his baseline abilities nor his Warlord Trait really reflect his tactical ability to be cross-Klan effective. His only buff that is cross-Klan is a pretty meaningless morale rule. It would be a lot better if he had something that reflected his "Morkiness" alongside his current "Gorkiness" of being a beatstick. Even some command phase ability where him and another unit count as having a different klan kultur rule (ala Amalgam from Custodes) would be a cool way to show how he can shift into different klan tactiks.
I’m fine with ghaz melee damage and I’m fine with his defense… ghaz just needs to move faster… really he should be allowed to move adv and charge every turn.
technically has an awesome fnp with makari around…. But that’s a 55pt boost sooo..
I would Keep ghaz around 270 and give him the ability to move adv and charge each turn and allow him to give this to a single group of nobs/meganobs and I’d be happy. Ghaz should also have the stompa morale rule instead…(6in unit may reroll a morale test)
If he stays at 300 give him a -1 damage ability and
Boost morks roar to 20/16 str6 -2 1dam
As well as the above changes
He'd be pretty much an auto include then, and I hate when named characters become auto include. I think Ghaz is already pretty amazing at 300 points, it's other stuff that needs to go up. Abbadon can easily be 350-380.
I'd like the advance and charge evey turn ability though. And he should make every ork fearless during the waaagh, like he used to do in previous editions.
Some makeup and corrected over reactions. Ok, then...
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Blackie wrote: He'd be pretty much an auto include then, and I hate when named characters become auto include. I think Ghaz is already pretty amazing at 300 points, it's other stuff that needs to go up. Abbadon can easily be 350-380.
I'd like the advance and charge evey turn ability though. And he should make every ork fearless during the waaagh, like he used to do in previous editions.
I agree. Comparison between both models at the same cost is hilarious .
Beardedragon wrote: Grots actually go to 4 points? Thats not bad at all. Should be 3 points but regardless, I didnt think they would lower a units cost to below 5.
Actually, it seems "Get the good bits" can be finished at the end of your turn if done by Grot or lootas now. Not bad as it opens the possiblity for 1st turn points.
So the question is, batallations once again with 1*snaggas and 2*grot?
Beardedragon wrote: Grots actually go to 4 points? Thats not bad at all. Should be 3 points but regardless, I didnt think they would lower a units cost to below 5.
Actually, it seems "Get the good bits" can be finished at the end of your turn if done by Grot or lootas now. Not bad as it opens the possiblity for 1st turn points.
So the question is, batallations once again with 1*snaggas and 2*grot?
So the question is, batallations once again with 1*snaggas and 2*grot?
It depends on how many CPs you want to invest pre-game and turn 1. Most of the lists I played in 9th were built around Patrol + Outrider, with 2 relics and a WL for the leader: with the upcoming rules I'd start with 1 CP in turn 1 which is kinda bad since there's basically nothing I can do defensively if I get second or offensively if I'm first, but if I manage to stick to double patrol I'd start with 2 CPs in turn which is enough to pop a defensive stratagem at least.
Also, with a single battallion we're restricted to just one warboss, so we wouldn't need most of the CPs that we currently invest on characters pre-game. A goffs army can rely a lot on elites, doesn't need two warbosses and it should do fine with a single battallion I think.
I fear that with a single battallion several legit units, specifically the cheap-ish FA and HS units such as mek gunz, dreads, kanz, multiple squads of bikes, stormboyz and a couple of kinds of buggies, would be hard to field now even if on paper they might be better than before, like stormboyz and lootas which are about to get a price cut.
All ork changes presented by someone who actually knows their gak about orks.
Both made me happy.
Good changes….
The fact he didn’t mention anything going up like the rumored wazbom is great!!! I mean it’s mostly just reverting the old chapter approved point increases with a few extra.
Beastboss on squig going down 15 (not sure I’d take both BBK and beasthide mantle again w CP issues)
Snagga boys going down 1
Killrig going down 20 (or stick with cheap battlewagon)
Kommandos going down 1
Grots going down 1
Stormboys going down 1
Boys down 1 (if you want trukk boys but just stick with snaggas and/or a single orrible gits unit)
Makari down 5 (which is useful if you are taking ghaz in goff pressure anyway)
Tankbustas are down a point (which is okay for those mortal wound spam lists but it’s not really a goff pressure unit. I’d fill the rest of the list with a boomboy wazbom and squigriders)
Sounds like goff pressure is back… It’s not tourney top table anymore with armor of contempt and general codex creep but it’s still a fun list with some variety in builds.
Speed mob is only back if they fix nob bikers and make missions easier for them to compete.
Nothing for the dreadmob or greentide players which need more then minor points reductions.
Madjob wrote: Nobs needed a more dramatic price drop to be worth taking, I was pulling for 15 points.
Lots of units are just bad even with large point reductions… orks need drastic changes. This is a bandaid that makes goff pressure mid table viable.. it’s a fun list with some variety so it’s okay but we really just need an entirely new codex.
Boys down 1 (if you want trukk boys but just stick with snaggas and/or a single orrible gits unit)
I never understood why several players prefer snaggas over boyz for min footslogging squads. I mean, if you want the rigs yeah totally for the snaggas since boyz can't ride in them, but I see a lot of lists with 3x10 footslogging snaggas and I can't understand why. Snaggas are just like boyz but 2ppm more expensive and in return they just get 6++ and +1S. My point is that 6++ is almost irrelevant since the unit is going to be wiped out against any decent anti infantry tool anyway (not to mention that vs AP0 or AP-1 while in cover is completely useless), and +1S doesn't matter if the units are there only to screen, do objectives or secondaries, it's not like snaggas are significantly more punchy than boyz. Going with boyz over snaggas saves you 20 points per squad, which isn't nothing.
Boys down 1 (if you want trukk boys but just stick with snaggas and/or a single orrible gits unit)
I never understood why several players prefer snaggas over boyz for min footslogging squads. I mean, if you want the rigs yeah totally for the snaggas since boyz can't ride in them, but I see a lot of lists with 3x10 footslogging snaggas and I can't understand why. Snaggas are just like boyz but 2ppm more expensive and in return they just get 6++ and +1S. My point is that 6++ is almost irrelevant since the unit is going to be wiped out against any decent anti infantry tool anyway (not to mention that vs AP0 or AP-1 while in cover is completely useless), and +1S doesn't matter if the units are there only to screen, do objectives or secondaries, it's not like snaggas are significantly more punchy than boyz. Going with boyz over snaggas saves you 20 points per squad, which isn't nothing.
You aren't wrong, but by that reasoning, why bring boyz at all? If you just want screens, and nothing else, use grots. As for snaggas, you get a decent amount of bonus compared to regular boyz that help you actually hold(or get) objectives. The extra str could help clear the point, the save might(maybe) help keep you on it. Not to mention the added stratagems for just snaggas.
JNAProductions wrote: Abaddon has a just over 92% chance of maxing 4 wounds on Ghaz in a fight phase.
Ghaz has a just over 67% chance of getting two wounds (so 3 damage) on Abaddon at 5 attacks.
77% at 6 attacks.
And 72% at 7 attacks, since his wound chance goes down.
Ghaz's shooting averages 2/9ths of a point of damage to Abaddon outside half range, .30 points of damage inside. (Assuming Armor Of Contempt sticks around-double that without it.) But that's without factoring in Abaddon's Mark...
With that Mark, he's got a 2% chance of dealing damage to Abaddon with shooting at 18-36 inches, and 3.46% at 18 or less inches. However, he does have about a one in four chance of doing a failed save within 18", which won't do damage, but WILL make it easier to deal damage on the charge.
Not only that, abbadon being infantry and with a swipe attack makes it much harder to road block or speed bump him.
His auras are better.
The 2 layers of additional defensive buffs are very good. Nulling first damage taken with that save will most surely force the opponent to put excessive force on him. And -1to wound rule even though seems unnecessarily convoluted with the strength conditional is still very powerful.
He is under 9wounds, so no targetable. Therefore much easier to get into combat unscratched .
Boys down 1 (if you want trukk boys but just stick with snaggas and/or a single orrible gits unit)
I never understood why several players prefer snaggas over boyz for min footslogging squads. I mean, if you want the rigs yeah totally for the snaggas since boyz can't ride in them, but I see a lot of lists with 3x10 footslogging snaggas and I can't understand why. Snaggas are just like boyz but 2ppm more expensive and in return they just get 6++ and +1S. My point is that 6++ is almost irrelevant since the unit is going to be wiped out against any decent anti infantry tool anyway (not to mention that vs AP0 or AP-1 while in cover is completely useless), and +1S doesn't matter if the units are there only to screen, do objectives or secondaries, it's not like snaggas are significantly more punchy than boyz. Going with boyz over snaggas saves you 20 points per squad, which isn't nothing.
I mean yes and no..
The str 5 is good enough to go through the marine mirror of toughness 4 infantry
Snaggas nob comes with a built in BC equivilant of power snappa.
The popular beastboss on squig buffs them with +1 to hit
And the beastsnagga buff vs vehicle and monster is decent in the current meta…
But I agree footslogging doesn’t work at all this edition… and snaggas don’t help… take a Killrig at 190 it’s decent again and since you need troops take snagga units to fill them because boys still suck.
Heck take a unit of orrible gitz sounds like it will be decent with the new secondary too
Yeah bad take on Boys over Snaggas, even slogging.
Having a 6++ means at least you have a chance to spike saves, and the KFF or MA Mek w/ KFF is so expensive it's not worth the saved models.
Snaggas have a free klaw (10 points), str 5 is a key breakpoint (and it's 6 in goffs on the charge), and they actually have strats they can use, unlike boys.
Boys are still only fine as Truck boys. If snaggas could be taken as truck boys, boys would be in the bin.
Edit: Also keep in mind, giving up a kill secondary in Nephilim is *reallllllllly* bad. Secondaries are harder to score now, and Bring it Down, No Prisoners (etc) is basically handing your opponent a free 15, while you might expect other secondaries to be 8-10 if well played.
So you'd rather take Snaggas over Boys simply to avoid giving up more Kill Points.
With the quantity of ap1/ap2 weapons all around, Boys have literally no save at all. In my games, it was just roll to hit> roll to wound> and me removing Boys from the table...
At least Snaggas have a chance of a save roll, and if you succeed the 6++ save just once, then you already saved up the cost difference.
+1S is a significant difference if you are not playing Goff (I usually play BW or DS).
So unless I am looking for trukk boys, I prefer going with snaggas.
I mean str6 goff snaggas on charge are nice… and str8 goff snagga nob on charge is great.
My main concern with the new secondaries and orks is we still hemorrhage assassinate points.. i haven’t BattleScribe it yet because we are just playing w leaks but a goff pressure list with beastboss on squig, Killrig (1 or 2), ghaz, makari… are 5 characters.. (even zagstrukk is playable in that list too)…
If you go vehicle heavy w Killrigs, Mek guns, wazboms, battlewagons, buggies and deffkoptas we hemorrhage bring it down. Best play is to go goff pressure and limit characters to 4.. and trying to deny your opponents easy mission points.
gungo wrote: I mean str6 goff snaggas on charge are nice… and str8 goff snagga nob on charge is great.
My main concern with the new secondaries and orks is we still hemorrhage assassinate points.. i haven’t BattleScribe it yet because we are just playing w leaks but a goff pressure list with beastboss on squig, Killrig (1 or 2), ghaz, makari… are 5 characters.. (even zagstrukk is playable in that list too)…
If you go vehicle heavy w Killrigs, Mek guns, wazboms, battlewagons, buggies and deffkoptas we hemorrhage bring it down. Best play is to go goff pressure and limit characters to 4.. and trying to deny your opponents easy mission points.
No Kill Rigs. Capacity is too limited (both on quantity and unit choice), and it just gives your opponent assassinate for free. You cannot give up a kill secondary in competitive play IMO unless you are certain you can counter them picking it (I don't think realistically Orks can).
You take 3 characters and then try to limit your BiD footprint to 8-10 if you can.
The issue with abby vs ghaz isnt them fighting each other, that literally comes down to who swings first and/or who whiffs a round. They shouldnt be hitting each other, thats a massive waste of time for both sides.
The issue is Abby makes any core or character (which happens to be himself) reroll ALL hits/wounds in melee, also has static reroll 1s to hit (note NOT MELEE ONLY), multiple defensive boosts, character protected (as of right now anyway i havnt seen a rule saying he doesnt get Look out Sir benefits), does slightly more damage to a big target w/o an invul and murders numbers better.
Ghaz has nothing on his side Abby doesnt, and Abby has like 5 things. For the same price. Powercreep isnt a thing *cough*
15pts off the squigbuggy is nice, brings it back to usable again. Bringing the taco trukk back! (i have a 3D printed tacotrukk squigbuggy lol)
The 15 points off of the Squigbuggy definitely makes it a "sometimes" pick over never being used. Also makes the 25 points for nitro squigs easier to swallow.
My list drops by 50 points all in all, so I can either squeeze in a third Mek Gun with some change, or a unit of grots to replace my small Kommando mob as my backfield campers, with a bit more change.
With the change to Get Da Good Bitz, it's probably going to be the latter and either a PK to my Trukkboys or a Souped Up Speshul for my Snazzwagon.
S5, built in big choppa, dedicated stratagems (keep in mind CPs are now precious) and 6++ sounds great on paper but... do you actually achieve anything with those footslogging snaggas? Let alone against something tough as marines are? Do you really manage to throw those snaggas in combat and do something? In my experience 10 man squads of boyz do almost nothing and the possible buff that snaggas have would have not made any significant difference typically, in fact I never regretted lacking those snagga buffs.
At the end of the day snaggas still get decimated by crappy anti infantry firepower and that 6++ means that the opponent just needs a couple of additional hits to wipe the squad. And 10 boyz in cover are exactly as tough as 10 snaggas to remove.
Now compared to gretchins both boyz and snaggas are significantly resilient and only one unit of gretchins per detachment can have obj sec, so while I can understand favoring boyz over gretchins (I do prefer gretchins though) I'm not convinced in favoring snaggas over boyz. I'm always assuming no kill/hunta rigs involved of course.
For something like 3x10 footslogging dudes, chosing boyz over snaggas means 60 points that can be spent elsewhere without really losing anything.
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Afrodactyl wrote: The 15 points off of the Squigbuggy definitely makes it a "sometimes" pick over never being used. Also makes the 25 points for nitro squigs easier to swallow.
With the change to Get Da Good Bitz, and the overall dropping of points, I might actually squeeze a unit of grots into my list.
Against armies that don't benefit from AoC it's still a solid unit but, with the upcoming changes to CPs, detachment slots become precious and there are several FA units that are hands down more useful, so I still see squigbuggies struggling to find some room in players' lists.
Quick question: Against Tyranids - Deathskull or Beastsnaggas? My opponent has approx. 5 zoantrophes (these psyker brains) on the field.
So is it better to ward off against that with the MW 5+ save or beast snagga for "against Monsters"?
deathskulls and beastsnaggas are not mutually exclusive… did you mean goff?
I mean the mortal wound save isn’t a reason to build deathskull list. Deathskulls are best with lots of small MSU infantry lists to take advantage of reroll and obj secured… but they really took a hit with changes to multi klan lists. There are just better klans overall now. Goff is just strong overall. Bloodaxe is good. Freebooter is tough to get off now. deathskull and evil sun have a very niche build. Everything else is just in a bad place.
Having reviewed the points reductions I can say with some certainty we are well and truly FETHED.
Multi-Detachment armies are dead, multi Warlord trait/relic armies are going to be rare. and guess where Orkz liked to spend most of their CP? In pre-game things like extra relics and warlord traits
Bringing down all our troops choices by 1ppm is good but does nothing to address the fundamental problem of them still sucking. Add in AoC and Boyz should reasonably be back to 7ppm to even be remotely considered ok. Grots at 4 just means we save 10pts on a troop tax which we can't spend very well anywhere else since we are now stuck to a single battalion thanks to this new stupid CP rule.
Orkz are the de-facto MSU army right now. We take units of 5-10 of lots of stuff in order to dilute firepower and cause more headaches for our opponents, a tiny price drop is nice except that we no longer have the space for MSU thanks to GW. Stormboyz dropping 1ppm does nothing since we now have to choose between taking MSU stormboyz or a good unit like warbikes/squig riders/Koptas or buggies and we are now limited to likely 3 choices total.
LeRufus wrote: No I meant deathskull and Beastsnagga I might have mixed up the "You arent allowed to soup anymore" thing with clans...
What do you think? Does this list even stand a chance? And if so, What clan?
1500p.
Spearhead Detach
---------------------------
Warboss in Mega Armour (BBK, Da Krushin Armor, Trukk boy)
Deaf Dread (4 Killa Claws)
2x Killrig (Frazzle, Squigly Curse)
1x Mek Gunz (KMB)
1x Mek Gunz (KMB)
1x Trukk
Vanguard Detach
-------------------------
Beastboss on Squig (ard as, Killchioppa, Warlord)
8x burna + 2 Spanna KMB
10x Kommandos
3x Meganobz mit Double Killsaw
Nob on Smasha (Big Killa Boss)
1x Mek Gun (KMB)
1x Trukk
With the upcoming rules this list would be illegal, it soaks up too many CPs pre-game. You have like 4 or 5 CPs to spare just to start with 0 CPs + 1/turn. Try to re-design it with a single warboss and a patrol + spearhead at least.
In the brave new world I'm looking at a single battalion of Blood Axes.
Beastboss on Squigosaur
Snikkrot
Weirdboy with Extra Kunnin & the Finkin Cap for CP generation and discount.
The only remaining question is whether to Supreme command Ghaz or not for the extra combat power.
Probably looking at 3 units of Grots to fill out the troops and complete Get da good bitz.
Will take some squighogs, probably 30 x Kommando's, a unit of meganob trukk boyz to crack open power armour, some tankhunta's for mortal wounds And then if there is anything left over some stormboyz.
I have one question about the extra Kunnin Warlord trait, can it reduce strategic ploy stratagems to cost 0 CP's? Doesn't say it can't but its probably hidden away somewhere in a FAQ.
LeRufus wrote: No I meant deathskull and Beastsnagga I might have mixed up the "You arent allowed to soup anymore" thing with clans...
What do you think? Does this list even stand a chance? And if so, What clan?
1500p.
Spearhead Detach
---------------------------
Warboss in Mega Armour (BBK, Da Krushin Armor, Trukk boy)
Deaf Dread (4 Killa Claws)
2x Killrig (Frazzle, Squigly Curse)
1x Mek Gunz (KMB)
1x Mek Gunz (KMB)
1x Trukk
Vanguard Detach
-------------------------
Beastboss on Squig (ard as, Killchioppa, Warlord)
8x burna + 2 Spanna KMB
10x Kommandos
3x Meganobz mit Double Killsaw
Nob on Smasha (Big Killa Boss)
1x Mek Gun (KMB)
1x Trukk
With the upcoming rules this list would be illegal, it soaks up too many CPs pre-game. You have like 4 or 5 CPs to spare just to start with 0 CPs + 1/turn. Try to re-design it with a single warboss and a patrol + spearhead at least.
Pickled_egg wrote: In the brave new world I'm looking at a single battalion of Blood Axes.
Beastboss on Squigosaur
Snikkrot
Weirdboy with Extra Kunnin & the Finkin Cap for CP generation and discount.
The only remaining question is whether to Supreme command Ghaz or not for the extra combat power.
Probably looking at 3 units of Grots to fill out the troops and complete Get da good bitz.
Will take some squighogs, probably 30 x Kommando's, a unit of meganob trukk boyz to crack open power armour, some tankhunta's for mortal wounds And then if there is anything left over some stormboyz.
I have one question about the extra Kunnin Warlord trait, can it reduce strategic ploy stratagems to cost 0 CP's? Doesn't say it can't but its probably hidden away somewhere in a FAQ.
in the current cp rules I would normally be all over the bloodaxe cp granting build… my issue is our Strats still mostly suck… I mean outside of army of renown and atk out da sun/drive by Dakka/ramming speed/crashing through/cloud of smoke deffkopta shenanigans I really don’t need massive amount of cp each turn. It’s that early game where you put units in reserve and relics and warlord traits and multi detachments where most of my cp went…
tulun wrote: I think you just have to be choosey with what relics / wlts you buy.
I'm almost certainly going to finagle any list I have to include over 3 FA slots because it's simply too important for playing the game.
I'm not sold by this Marshal Peterson Blood Axe MW bomb list, and I think we need to fall back on our fast units. So that means 5+ FA units for me.
I'm running Patrol+Outrider, and taking one each of traits and relics. I'm also going full herohammer, but with the expectation that I'm realistically giving up full points for Assassinate. They either die or they do enough to secure a win.
Squigboss, Bikerboss, Zagstruk, Dakka Mek and two Smasha Squigs; all being used as aggressive little missiles.
I'm also running a full 6 FA choices and 25 Kommandos to be as aggressive as I can, with a load of bomb Squigs and other MW output. It's a proper ride or die kind of list.
I start with a single CP, but after a Command Phase I have enough CP for Ramming Speed/Tankbusta Bombs/Unstoppable Momentum.
With grots going down to 40 points, maybe a brigade kann be viable. 120 points tax in comparison to a battallion, but we save 2-3 CP and get all the slots we need.
Like a week ago or something i asked, if the squig buggy was better than the snazzwagon at its price of 110 points. It was ruled the snazzy boy was Better.
Now i ask the same question, based on the new squig buggy price of 95. How does the squig buggy square up against the snazzwagon, as a mid field combat unit?
Had my first speed mob match versus White scars and I won 93-73. So that was a pleasant experience. We were both using our respective armies and lists for the first time so a fun learning game. I intended to use 2 squig buggies for 2 the last but the fact they are now 95 points instead of 100 feths me up now
Now my 2 scrapjets would be 2 the last unless i put 3 squig buggies in the unit. That or i could use a gunwagon with forktress and a kill kannon.
Nephilin rules pack and it' s impact on WAAAAAGHH!!!
1. We know just the fragments yet. It ' s impossible to make a final conclusions. Be careful. But there is already something to think about.
The whole Nephilim pack consist of 3 parts:
- new rules for secondaries, missions etc - we have a leaks
- new point costs - we have some leaks
- new Balance Dataslate - we know nothing! And there are always the game changing paragrafs, like crippling the indirect, flyiers, multi-clan armies etc…
2. Point changes
- it seems we go generali down. Which is fine. Different rummors are here around, you can easily find them. The winners are the infantry units.
Less CP, different distribution etc. No more herohammer, no more multi-detachement armies (or you start at 0 CP). Everything discussed before already
There is however also one small tweak - all Dedicated Transports have to start with the units in them. Empty Dedicated transport on the start of the battle is dead. This has small impact on orks, but is a big warning for us - GW makes major changes in basic game mechanics again and we shall expect them in dataslate!
Generic secondaries as I take it from various sources:
- Assasinate, Bring them down, Grind them down, Behind enemy line, Data and No prisoners are the same
- Engage 6” from another quater + no AIRCRAFT, Banners sligtly different, small changes in psychic secondaries
- TTL, Stranglehold, Teleport Homers, Investigate signal, Pierce de Veil - gone
Purge The Enemy – Da Biggest And Da Best
Now scores 2 VP at the end of each Battle Round (to a max of 5) for the following criteria met by your WARLORD–
Cause a MONSTER, VEHICLE or CHARACTER to lose any Wounds by Melee Attacks
Destroy 5+ models with Attacks
Destroy an enemy unit
Be in range of an Objective you control not in your Deployment Zone
Despite being overall easier to score and stack, still being tied to your WARLORD makes this a tricky one to get max on, as they can’t be everywhere or feasibly do multiple criteria a turn, and with a hard counter of just being killed makes it a risky one if you need them to be in the thick of it.
Battlefield Supremacy – Green Tide
Now just grants 1 VP for each quarter that has 10+ models in total within it, ignoring those within 6” of another table quarter. A pseudo Engage On All Fronts, though requiring hordes, as your non-INFANTRY still only count as 1 model, making them less suited for this. Engage is generally better, depending on your army build.
Shadow Operations – Get Da Good Bitz
The Action can now be done on any Objective in No Man’s Land (no more pre game selecting), you just need to control it, and if a LOOTAS or GRETCHIN unit does the Action, they complete it that same turn. You also get the “end of the battle” caveat for when you go second. You are capped at 5 VP per round now, but it generally is a bit easier and you have some extra flexibility for scoring it, and where.
3. Dataslate - ??
4. Conclusions?
Because of the missing dataslate, it' s impossible to make some complex conclusion. But right now, it seems like Speed Mob - the best and coolest and most funny to play ork list of all the time is burned to dust. Why?
- changes in CP generaly hits it hard
- no more To The Last and no more Stranglehold + Flyiers do not counted for Engage + no suitable faction specific secondaries except Bitz = there are honestly no secondaries Speed Mob can even take!!!
If the opponent do not offer me the the Vehicles for Bring it down, Speed Mob can play only
- No Prisoners
- Assasination
- Grind them down
- Behind enemy lines
- new Engage
- Good Bitz
First three depend very much on the opponents army. Behind is almost impossible to play and new Engage is very hard too. So de facto Speed Mob has just a single bloody secondary able to play…..
It seems I ' m switching my engines off….
5. Conclusion 2
Seeing the reddit comments, most of the people feel like sky is falling for their armies. Everybody are hit. Hard to predict the results of this wild party…
SemperMortis wrote: Having reviewed the points reductions I can say with some certainty we are well and truly FETHED.
Multi-Detachment armies are dead,
Mine isn't. It just was:1 Spearhead, 1 Outrider, & a Patrol. Now it'd be 3 Patrols + WL trait & Relic.
Our stratagems are pretty bad overall but the few that are good are generally needed to make certain units/combos work. Starting with 0 CP means you are opening yourself up to some problems to start the game. The possibility of a turn 1 Ramming speed tends to keep opponents honest or at least scared of getting bum rushed by orkz. Not having the CP to pull it off (unless you go second) gives them a bit more leeway.
Bossdoc wrote: With grots going down to 40 points, maybe a brigade kann be viable. 120 points tax in comparison to a battallion, but we save 2-3 CP and get all the slots we need.
I hate to say it but I think you might be right Bossdoc. 120pts for Grots and 240pts or so on boyz (more if you go beast boyz) still leaves you with most of your army to choose from, not to mention only taking 1 warboss means you don't have to pay the 100ish points for another warboss on warbike or whatever you choose.
There is also the added bonus of taking more grots now with da good bitz which means you can have a cheap (Crappy) unit performing this action every turn while the rest of your army goes off and murders things.
Personally with the change to Relic/warlord traits teamed with the CP shortage if you take a 2nd detachment, Zagstruk just became an even better option as a 2nd quasi-warboss. Snikrot to a lesser extent.
I was also thinking about a footslogging brigade, which I'd actually consider it very fun to play.
I never liked post 3rd edition one dimensional greentides with 120+ boyz but I played a lot of greentides in 3rd with tons of specialists, different tactics and synergies (Tankbustas and Burnaboyz were troops back then, the latter could take a KFF, and you could max out special weapons regardless of units' sizes so something like 10-15 Shoota Boyz with 3 rokkits were good and cheap) and loved it.
Only concern could be about the HQs but Warboss, Zagstruk, Weirdboy/Big Mek seems ok.
Bossdoc wrote: With grots going down to 40 points, maybe a brigade kann be viable. 120 points tax in comparison to a battallion, but we save 2-3 CP and get all the slots we need.
Definitely worthwhile if you already take 3-4 troops units and a number of HQs.
Da biggest and da best might be decent with the changes in a speed mob. I mean if one struggles to find secondaries with the speed mob, you can park your warlord on an objective, for 10 points if he sit there for 5 turns. Then maybe you can finish off someone Who arrives for extra points.
Also maybe go for 2x3 nob bikers with choppas for 30 points for extra units for good Bits.
Why warbikers arent troop choices in a speed mob is beyond me. They should be so you have more action monkeys.
Tomsug wrote: Nephilin rules pack and it' s impact on WAAAAAGHH!!!
/.../
5. Conclusion 2
Seeing the reddit comments, most of the people feel like sky is falling for their armies. Everybody are hit. Hard to predict the results of this wild party…
This actually tells me that GW made a good job
Thanks for the sum up. My thoughts go Biggest and Best with a Beastasaurboss, Psychic Interrogation and Banners. Might even go so crazy as to bring a Painboy to keep WL up. This gives alot of tactical leeway to just control 2 objects on the midline and grind down whatever comes to kick us off.
Beardedragon wrote: Da biggest and da best might be decent with the changes in a speed mob. I mean if one struggles to find secondaries with the speed mob, you can park your warlord on an objective, for 10 points if he sit there for 5 turns. Then maybe you can finish off someone Who arrives for extra points.
Also maybe go for 2x3 nob bikers with choppas for 30 points for extra units for good Bits.
Why warbikers arent troop choices in a speed mob is beyond me. They should be so you have more action monkeys.
Not great, not terrible. Tricky. It cannot be home objective. Kill the warlord and problem solved. Risky.
@tomsung I believe the speedmob can still do the Nephilin equivalent of RnD. They lost Deploy scramblers.
The change to engage benefits the barebones
3x nob bikerz squad.
The biggest and the da best is a safe 10 points if you hide your boss on a no man's land objective and attack any vehicle that comes close.
I'm actually really excited about "get the good bits" and "green tide" in a grot heavy foot slogging force. You could max out get the good bits by the start of t3 with a mix of grots and units that don't complete the action until the next command phase.
Green tide could be completed by the end of t4 if sufficient number of models survive.
The biggest and the best can get 10 minimum if you display sufficient self control and hold the warboas back. That's 40 points from secondaries with no interaction with the opponent.
I ´ve projected this scenario to my recent games and - honestly - it ´s not so easy with the warboss. But we ´ll see.
Reagrding the Bitz, Data etc - I haven ´t seen the exact wording yet. Are Bitz still locked to CORE units? Are there any changes in what units are core? No idea.
I skipp it in my mind, play the last tourney next week with the old rules and start analysing with all 3 documents in hands - points, dataslate and new secondaries after.
I made up a list that would play into the new secondaries. I went with deathskulls because the single obsec infantry character beside a large squad of grots counters the grots lack of obsec.
The list is based on the leaked points drop and admittedly gives up prisoners easily and with 9 characters will tempt people to take assassinate but all the list has to do is survive. I'm not looking for a list review I just wanted to illustrate how with the new secondaries we can create a list that can wrack up serious secondary points unopposed early and can contest primaries reasonably early as well due to sheer numbers.
This army will literally disintegrate over the game but if you can hide your characters (behind grots, terrain, in vehicles) you stop your opponent scoring and if you can keep 10 models in any quarter you'll be getting points to the end.
I think orks will be better overall in relation to most armies but still a very B tier army with a single competitive type that relies on mostly goff pressure. Put it this way every army was nerfed in some way (except maybe sisters which might be a problem) but orks goff pressure got stronger… unless of other armies has a ton of points drops.
Tomsug wrote: Nephilin rules pack and it' s impact on WAAAAAGHH!!!
/.../
5. Conclusion 2
Seeing the reddit comments, most of the people feel like sky is falling for their armies. Everybody are hit. Hard to predict the results of this wild party…
This actually tells me that GW made a good job
Thanks for the sum up. My thoughts go Biggest and Best with a Beastasaurboss, Psychic Interrogation and Banners. Might even go so crazy as to bring a Painboy to keep WL up. This gives alot of tactical leeway to just control 2 objects on the midline and grind down whatever comes to kick us off.
gungo wrote: I think orks will be better overall in relation to most armies but still a very B tier army with a single competitive type that relies on mostly goff pressure. Put it this way every army was nerfed in some way (except maybe sisters which might be a problem) but orks goff pressure got stronger… unless of other armies has a ton of points drops.
I have to disagree with the conclusions here. Yeah I think everyone is going "the sky is falling" right now but realistically very few factions were running 3 detachments. And if you look at it in the light of what some factions CAN do its not much better. Most Power Armored factions can just take a single detachment and that be it. Few if any of those factions NEED more then 3 slots per battlefield role, and if they really want to go nuts they can likewise get the brigade, for them though its a lot more expensive since MSU Tacs are 90pts for each.
Compared to that though, Orkz were really leaning heavily on Warboss key word units to do some melee beat sticking for us and the AoR was using a 3CP detachment to fill in the required slots. In my opinion the AoR army is basically DoA since they lose out on all but 1CP just to take a detachment and a warlord with trait/relic.
The Goff pressure build is likewise in a bit of trouble since it relied on those character beatsticks and some sneaky tricks to get into assault turn 1. So if you go that route you can still pull it off with 2 warbosses with 2 warlord traits/relics but you will start the game with 0 CP and will not have the ability to use ramming speed or anything else for that matter.
It will be interesting to see how the meta gets shaken up by this change but realistically I don't see many factions doing worse then us with these changes do to the necessity of traits/relics and detachments. The good (kind of) news is that we can't really sink too much further down the power scale, I think last week we were pushing along at a 40% win rate or thereabouts and the best finishes we had was Marshall Petersen finishing 5th at Wargames for warriors and another gentleman named Damien Owen finishing 7th.
With all of that said, I am more and more convinced the Mortal wound spam list is going to be our top list for a bit.
gungo wrote: I think orks will be better overall in relation to most armies but still a very B tier army with a single competitive type that relies on mostly goff pressure. Put it this way every army was nerfed in some way (except maybe sisters which might be a problem) but orks goff pressure got stronger… unless of other armies has a ton of points drops.
Nid's definitely got a hefty kick in the egg sacs from the most recent (confirmed) leaks.
I'm fine with orks being a B tier army to be honest, that just means you are not able to fight GW's most recent feth-up of the month, but are on equal footing with everyone else.
Bossdoc wrote: With grots going down to 40 points, maybe a brigade kann be viable. 120 points tax in comparison to a battallion, but we save 2-3 CP and get all the slots we need.
Ordinarily i would argue the mandatory 3x FA/Elite/Heavy would get in the way, but actually...we kinda want those units now that fill those slots
3x5 Kommandoz for sneaky objective stealing = 165pts naked 3x1 Mek Gunz w/ KMK = 135pts 3 of any FA isnt an issue, literally any ork list wants FA slots right now so BYOWaaagh Safe to assume nobody is running 0 boyz, so 4x10 grots = 160pts 2x10 Boyz = 180pts naked Beastboss on Squig = 160pts w/o thump gun OR Wartrike for 120pts BigMek MA w/ KFF = ~120pts (personally i still love slapping Dead Shiny Shoota on him and think its worth a CP even now) Weirdboy = 70pts (this is probably the biggest problem as either you run multiple Bigmeks or take a weirdboy for the mandatory 3rd HQ)
Thats only ~1000pts before adding the FA, which realistically we'd probably field all 6 slots as the rest of the army.
Nothing there feels like dead weight to fill requirements except perhaps the weirdboy, but even he can just dajump grots across the board to block paths and hold objectives. Better even that none of it feels forced into a particular klan either, as the FA choices seem to dictate that these days (or heavy choices)
Bossdoc wrote: With grots going down to 40 points, maybe a brigade kann be viable. 120 points tax in comparison to a battallion, but we save 2-3 CP and get all the slots we need.
Ordinarily i would argue the mandatory 3x FA/Elite/Heavy would get in the way, but actually...we kinda want those units now that fill those slots
3x5 Kommandoz for sneaky objective stealing = 165pts naked
3x1 Mek Gunz w/ KMK = 135pts
3 of any FA isnt an issue, literally any ork list wants FA slots right now so BYOWaaagh
Safe to assume nobody is running 0 boyz, so 4x10 grots = 160pts 2x10 Boyz = 180pts naked
Beastboss on Squig = 160pts w/o thump gun OR Wartrike for 120pts
BigMek MA w/ KFF = ~120pts (personally i still love slapping Dead Shiny Shoota on him and think its worth a CP even now)
Weirdboy = 70pts (this is probably the biggest problem as either you run multiple Bigmeks or take a weirdboy for the mandatory 3rd HQ)
Thats only ~1000pts before adding the FA, which realistically we'd probably field all 6 slots as the rest of the army.
Nothing there feels like dead weight to fill requirements except perhaps the weirdboy, but even he can just dajump grots across the board to block paths and hold objectives.
Better even that none of it feels forced into a particular klan either, as the FA choices seem to dictate that these days (or heavy choices)
I am considering on the same lines, the wierdboy also opens up for the secondary of psychic interrogation.
I also would say Gazz is a contender, a choice between extra CP or 300pts in supreme command
The good bitz is probably our best secondary fully maxing out with 2 actions over 3 turns making it a safe and very difficult to interrupt with grots.
I am still on the fence with the new warboss secondary, but i would do it with mega armored warboss with krusher armour and hard as nails trait, sitting on a point that's 10vp if your opponent ignores, more if he tries to interrupt him
The stomp them good is not bad, just depends on your opponent
I am trying to think how i would fit meganobz/wazboom/warbikers/tankbusters
I am not sure Lootas are worth it but i will still look into it.
I am not sold on the discount's though, Kommandos are back in the menu, and the secondary + point cost just made grots very appealing, rest is just reverting most of the nerfs.
Tabletop Titans have a battle report with the new rules and MW inspired list
Bossdoc wrote: With grots going down to 40 points, maybe a brigade kann be viable. 120 points tax in comparison to a battallion, but we save 2-3 CP and get all the slots we need.
Ordinarily i would argue the mandatory 3x FA/Elite/Heavy would get in the way, but actually...we kinda want those units now that fill those slots
3x5 Kommandoz for sneaky objective stealing = 165pts naked
3x1 Mek Gunz w/ KMK = 135pts
3 of any FA isnt an issue, literally any ork list wants FA slots right now so BYOWaaagh
Safe to assume nobody is running 0 boyz, so 4x10 grots = 160pts 2x10 Boyz = 180pts naked
Beastboss on Squig = 160pts w/o thump gun OR Wartrike for 120pts
BigMek MA w/ KFF = ~120pts (personally i still love slapping Dead Shiny Shoota on him and think its worth a CP even now)
Weirdboy = 70pts (this is probably the biggest problem as either you run multiple Bigmeks or take a weirdboy for the mandatory 3rd HQ)
Thats only ~1000pts before adding the FA, which realistically we'd probably field all 6 slots as the rest of the army.
Nothing there feels like dead weight to fill requirements except perhaps the weirdboy, but even he can just dajump grots across the board to block paths and hold objectives.
Better even that none of it feels forced into a particular klan either, as the FA choices seem to dictate that these days (or heavy choices)
I'd consider meganobz (especially with a weirdboy that can jump stuff around) and min squads of tankbustas for elites and even lootas for heavy support in lists that have 100+ infantry dudes. Kommandos can be run in 10 man squads to spam bomb squigs, and even min squads of burnaboyz might be useful for the objective game if there are 50-100 points and 1-2 elite slots spared. Snikrot and Zagstruck are also good HQs, although klan locked. But both Goffs and Blood Axes are currently quite popular so they're legit options I think. I'd run the megarmoured warboss with all the tanky synergies or the biker boss with all the killy ones as my warlord, both much cheaper than the squig rider one.
Tomsug wrote: Nephilin rules pack and it' s impact on WAAAAAGHH!!!
/.../
5. Conclusion 2
Seeing the reddit comments, most of the people feel like sky is falling for their armies. Everybody are hit. Hard to predict the results of this wild party…
This actually tells me that GW made a good job
Thanks for the sum up. My thoughts go Biggest and Best with a Beastasaurboss, Psychic Interrogation and Banners. Might even go so crazy as to bring a Painboy to keep WL up. This gives alot of tactical leeway to just control 2 objects on the midline and grind down whatever comes to kick us off.
gungo wrote: I think orks will be better overall in relation to most armies but still a very B tier army with a single competitive type that relies on mostly goff pressure. Put it this way every army was nerfed in some way (except maybe sisters which might be a problem) but orks goff pressure got stronger… unless of other armies has a ton of points drops.
I have to disagree with the conclusions here. Yeah I think everyone is going "the sky is falling" right now but realistically very few factions were running 3 detachments. And if you look at it in the light of what some factions CAN do its not much better. Most Power Armored factions can just take a single detachment and that be it. Few if any of those factions NEED more then 3 slots per battlefield role, and if they really want to go nuts they can likewise get the brigade, for them though its a lot more expensive since MSU Tacs are 90pts for each.
Compared to that though, Orkz were really leaning heavily on Warboss key word units to do some melee beat sticking for us and the AoR was using a 3CP detachment to fill in the required slots. In my opinion the AoR army is basically DoA since they lose out on all but 1CP just to take a detachment and a warlord with trait/relic.
The Goff pressure build is likewise in a bit of trouble since it relied on those character beatsticks and some sneaky tricks to get into assault turn 1. So if you go that route you can still pull it off with 2 warbosses with 2 warlord traits/relics but you will start the game with 0 CP and will not have the ability to use ramming speed or anything else for that matter.
It will be interesting to see how the meta gets shaken up by this change but realistically I don't see many factions doing worse then us with these changes do to the necessity of traits/relics and detachments. The good (kind of) news is that we can't really sink too much further down the power scale, I think last week we were pushing along at a 40% win rate or thereabouts and the best finishes we had was Marshall Petersen finishing 5th at Wargames for warriors and another gentleman named Damien Owen finishing 7th.
With all of that said, I am more and more convinced the Mortal wound spam list is going to be our top list for a bit.
We will see… I think goff pressure is mid table competitive.. almost no reliable ork competitive list was using triple detachments.. and a lot of the current goff pressure was already winning with ghaz plus warboss/beastboss… It’s not really the point reductions that helped orks an extra 50-75 points is an extra mekgun at most, but it’s the secondary changes that made a decent goff list better… that grot secondary is extremely easy to max… I am not even worried about the CP changes on a goff pressure list.. stick to 1 detachment and you are fine… most other armies were crushed by the secondary changes and the chapter approved rumors are going to kick a lot of the top outliers down another peg too. (The only issue so far I see is sisters of battle look OP. They were already very good and got significant boosts)
I agree the secondaries are where we've made some serious gains. 40+ is reasonably easily achievable.
The fact our strats weren't great means the lack of CP isn't the end of the world.
Any points drops are just gravy.
Green tide secondary really looks like they want orks to play as a horde. Goonhammer pointed to engage as a better alternative but I think they're missing that if you're only in 2 quarters you still get points. Also a unit doesn't have to be 6" away from another quarter, just the models you wish to count.
I agree, it' s about the secondaries. This whole edition is about secondaries!
And I agree that it seems GW want us to play a lot of multiple small infantry units to max. I expect the top ork lists from this direction.
Ot would be really nice if GW fix all the FW models keyword.
Kannonwagon with the WAGON for speedmob.
Big Trakk be the Dedicated transport!
Nob bikers….
Zhagstrak back from legend to have at ůeast one named character on bike and for Evil Sunz……
Well. ill attempt to stick to a speed mob for a while and see how that plans out. Doing secondaries there is damn difficult though, and i would probably have to go the biggest and the best, + good bits.
But I really really really hope they allow all units to do good bits for speed mobs.
There's supposed to be a new dataslate that comes out with the new points, correct? Do you think there's any possibility that GW will revert some of the Ork changes or introduce something that makes things better in our book?
Grimskul wrote: There's supposed to be a new dataslate that comes out with the new points, correct? Do you think there's any possibility that GW will revert some of the Ork changes or introduce something that makes things better in our book?
Essentially all infantry except flash gits (including gretchin) gets -1 point and makari, kill rig, squig buggy and beastboss on squigosaur get their nerfs from last time undone/reduced.
With those somewhat decent secondaries, goff might be back on the menu.
Green tide secondary really looks like they want orks to play as a horde. Goonhammer pointed to engage as a better alternative but I think they're missing that if you're only in 2 quarters you still get points. Also a unit doesn't have to be 6" away from another quarter, just the models you wish to count.
I think Engage is easier to achieve, in general. Probably not with a whole footslogging army though. Green tide requires many more models to do the secondary and footslogging orks are very easy to kill.
I´ll revise my initial scoring plan as I forgot the fine writ of Bitz. I´d rather go Psychic, Good Bitz and Biggest Best. Reasoning:
Psychic - we got cheap psykers and it actually got better since beating opponent Ld = 4 Vp meaning its more forgiving. It´s funny in a way that it disincentives the opponent to approach.
Biggest and Da best - 2 VP turn for just standing on an objective with the WL. +2 for attacking anything coming within reach with the the simpIest scratching a wound off a Hero/Monster/Vehicle (very likely). I envision the WL patrolling between 2 no mans land objectives, carefully screened.
Bitz - use Grotz and/or Lootas (as they finish in the same turn) with a tiny footprint on 1-2 midfield objectives, also carefully screened, netting 3-5 vp/turn.
This scoring strategy allows the triangle play that TTT often talk about, meaning you operate in a zone of your home objective and 2 midfield objectives. The advantage is the mutual support you get from having the army more coherent. Especially good with our melee oriented faction.
Unless the opponent has a better scoring plan (hard to say since we don´t know the full Nephilim rules yet) we force them to interact with us. Supposing opponents go for the usual Engage and/or Retrieve they´re going to feed us units piecemeal, weaken as a result and still score worse. The major issue still is Grind them Down as we are more brittle than most opponents.
In summary: screen, absorb their attack, counter attack and keep ticking those 8-12 vp / turn.
This seems to be the exact wording of our new secondaries.
- most of them "on the end of the battle round" !!!
Stomp em Good (progressive): At the end of the battle round:
• Score 3 victory points if the number of enemy units destroyed by melee attacks made by ORKS units from your army this battle round is more than the number of non-GRETCHIN units from your army destroyed by melee attacks this battle round.
• Score 1 additional victory point if the number ofenemy units destroyed by melee attacks made by ORKS units from your army this battle round is at least 2 and is at least double the number of non-GRETCHIN units from your army destroyed by melee attacks this battle round.
Da Biggest and Da Best (progressive): At the end of the battle round, score 2 victory points for each of the following achieved by your ORKS WARLORD (to a maximum of 5 victory points per battle round):
An enemy CHARACTER, MONSTER Or VEHICLE unit lost any wounds as the result of a melee attack made by your WARLORD this battle round.
• 5 or more models were destroyed as the result of attacks made by your WARLORD this battle round.
• An enemy unit was destroyed as the result of an attack made by your WARLORD this battle round.
• Your WARLORD is within range of an objective marker you control that is not within your deployment zone.
Green Tide (progressive): At the end of your turn, score 1 victory point for each table quarter that contains 10 or more ORK models from your army (excluding models that are within 6" of any other table quarter).
Get Da Good Bitz (progressive): If you select this secondary objective, ORKS CORE units from your army can attempt the following action: Get da Good Bitz (Action): At the end of your Movement phase, one or more ORKS CORE units from your army can start to perform this action. Each unit from your army that starts to perform this action must be within range of a different objective marker you control that is not in either player's deployment zone. If a LOOTS Or GRETCHIN unit is performing this action, it is completed at the end of your turn; otherwise, it is completed at the start of your next Command phase or at the end of the battle (whichever comes first). In any case, the action is only completed if the unit performing it is still within range of the same objective marker.
Score 3 victory points each time a unit from your army completes this action (to a maximum of 5 victory points per battle round).
Automatically Appended Next Post: Da Biggest and Da best is tricky. If go first, you park him somewhere T1 and if the opponent kills him, you lost the game. This is very much a death sentence for the warlord....
Automatically Appended Next Post: Bitz are much better now. There is in fact one more scoring on the end of the battle = +3 VP.
Automatically Appended Next Post: However, there is a typical Tau issue. If you take Bitz than Tau player kills all your bikers T1 to stop you scoring and cripple the speedmob….
I mean you don’t need to go crazy on grots and lootas for get the good bits. You just need a unit to score it the first turn and you can have any other unit score for the second turn at the same time. That will put you ahead.. from there it’s just trying to have any unit score for the 3-4 rounds of your grot survives even easier….
You protect those scoring units with kommandos units which are a great screening and blocking unit especially with the current missions. Your opponent needs to deal with those kommandos in order to score thier own midfield objectives.
Even with ghaz and makari I’m not sold with biggest and the best… it’s significantly easier to score but I will need to play with them and see if I am able to reliably get at least 12 Points each time. I don’t necessarily like these type of missions as your opponent can snipe your warlord and stop you from scoring however ghaz/makari is hard to take down for most armies.. he essentially becomes a focus for your opponent which should help you score more Points w him as long as you can keep him alive.
If you go double Killrig w snaggas you can try the psychic interrogation mission… throw in a backup weirdboy and you are doing pretty good BUT again once your psykers are gone it’s a problem, but at least this is already a viable build.
If you go heavy infantry spam greentide is easy to get a lot of points in as well. But like most of our missions it’s about surviving.
I mean we have multiple options but we have a fine line to walk it through… plus we might have to be careful w assassinate or bring it down….This is why goff pressure got better.
We also still have a chance to get slightly buffed with the quarterly update changes which we haven’t heard about… we have only heard about points and chapter approved mission leaks.
Da biggest and da best is good but remember, the second he dies its GG for that secondary. Plopping him on an objective means 10VP if he lives to the end of the game though. LOL for a weird list you could make a SAG Big Mek your warboss and just plop him in the backfield on an objective to do this and then have him snipe weak units with his SAG to try and get the 4VP a turn
I do have to say though, the 5 or more dead models a battle round is a bit...high. I mean, a Warboss only has 5 attacks base, I feel like they set this bar way to high because of Beastboss's on Squigosaurs who have the bonus from their squig jaws.
Green Tide is in my opinion bad, its just Engage on all Fronts with extra steps and a SLIGHT benefit of only needing 2 quarters to get 2 points instead of 3. A smart opponent can just plink a few wounds off multiple units just to deny you this with relative ease unless you are taking 20+ mobz which...i still dont see as feasible unless GW is also going to give us some new Morale rules for Orkz.
Get Da Good Bitz just got better. Scoring 3-5VP a turn from a couple units of Grots sitting mid field causing a distraction is awesome, what is even better is you get the points your turn and your opponent then HAS to kill them outright otherwise its another 3VP for you.
As far as Goff Pressure list, definitely got cheaper, but the loss of Melee beatstick characters is concerning. What is worse (in my opinion) is without that 2nd detachment you only get 1 unit of trukkboyz, be nice if GW gave them back their damn kulture now, especially in light of these new changes AND AoC.
Once we get all the new rules/points im going to toy with building a Goff beta strike list with squigs....lots of squigs. Benefit of that is 18 Squigriders = 6 Bomb squigs AND 3 slotless Nobz on Smasha Squigz. Failing that i'll try and build another with my favorite koptas
Greentide is models.. not units…you can go msu and be much safer with it.. it’s better for engage for any list with large model count army like those 3 units of 10x kommandos.. 2 units of 10x snaggas, 2 units of 20 grots, maybe 2 units of 5x meganobs, heck even trukk boys are good for greentide lists. Heck it even includes your wazboms again unlike engage.
Da biggest and best is really only decent for ghaz/makari and maybe a buffed up mantle/Ard as nails squigboss or maybe mozrog. The warlord needs to survive to score. Bikerboss is a killing machine but too easy to kill. I mean there might be a play on krushin armor warboss w a bunch of meganobs in wagon.
The best thing with goff pressure is that it has options to build and use different types of lists. Unlike the speedmob army of renown which has 1 real build and didn’t gain much from this chapter approved.
gungo wrote: Greentide is models.. not units…you can go msu and be much safer with it.. it’s better for engage for any list with large model count army like those 3 units of 10x kommandos.. 2 units of 10x snaggas, 2 units of 20 grots, maybe 2 units of 5x meganobs, heck even trukk boys are good for greentide lists. Heck it even includes your wazboms again unlike engage.
Da biggest and best is really only decent for ghaz/makari and maybe a buffed up mantle/Ard as nails squigboss or maybe mozrog. The warlord needs to survive to score. Bikerboss is a killing machine but too easy to kill. I mean there might be a play on krushin armor warboss w a bunch of meganobs in wagon.
The best thing with goff pressure is that it has options to build and use different types of lists. Unlike the speedmob army of renown which has 1 real build and didn’t gain much from this chapter approved.
Green tide is in fact models you are correct, do you have multiple units totaling 15-20 to send into table quarters? Most lists atm don't. Think about this, to get safety you need at least 20 models in each quarter. that is 60 total, you aren't going to be that lucky for that long. Engage is better
It’s at the end of YOUR turn you don’t need to move 15-20 models there only 10+.
You can move 2 units of 5 models there it doesn’t matter.. and most of my lists (outside the army of renown) have around 80+ models… I can get 2 groups of 10 models 6in onto the other table quarter. While easily keeping 20 models on my half the board. I mean engage is comparable. Greentide is just easier to score some points whereas engage is a little easier to score max points.
gungo wrote: Greentide is models.. not units…you can go msu and be much safer with it.. it’s better for engage for any list with large model count army like those 3 units of 10x kommandos.. 2 units of 10x snaggas, 2 units of 20 grots, maybe 2 units of 5x meganobs, heck even trukk boys are good for greentide lists. Heck it even includes your wazboms again unlike engage.
Da biggest and best is really only decent for ghaz/makari and maybe a buffed up mantle/Ard as nails squigboss or maybe mozrog. The warlord needs to survive to score. Bikerboss is a killing machine but too easy to kill. I mean there might be a play on krushin armor warboss w a bunch of meganobs in wagon.
The best thing with goff pressure is that it has options to build and use different types of lists. Unlike the speedmob army of renown which has 1 real build and didn’t gain much from this chapter approved.
Green tide is in fact models you are correct, do you have multiple units totaling 15-20 to send into table quarters? Most lists atm don't. Think about this, to get safety you need at least 20 models in each quarter. that is 60 total, you aren't going to be that lucky for that long. Engage is better
Exactly, you need a list with 150-180 infantry models to do green tide properly. And even then the results are highly terrain and opponent's dependant, as footsloggin orks could die in droves. Engage is much easier to achieve.
Given finkin' cap now costs 1 CP for sure, is it really worth taking?
On net, 1.5 CP on average. Doesn't seem as straight value as say.. Extra Kunnin' if you go that route, as you know you'll get the refund if you want those strats.
tulun wrote: Given finkin' cap now costs 1 CP for sure, is it really worth taking?
On net, 1.5 CP on average. Doesn't seem as straight value as say.. Extra Kunnin' if you go that route, as you know you'll get the refund if you want those strats.
tulun wrote: Given finkin' cap now costs 1 CP for sure, is it really worth taking?
On net, 1.5 CP on average. Doesn't seem as straight value as say.. Extra Kunnin' if you go that route, as you know you'll get the refund if you want those strats.
Why not both? I run both in my speed mob.
The expected CP return is 1.5 CP.
With a decent chance of going to just .5 CP. Not sure if it's worth it anymore. If it was a 2 or 3+ cp regen, maybe. 4+ is so swingy.
You just need to roll a single 4+ to make it a +-0 CP thing though, and that is quite likely to happen. If you get more, great, if not, you lose nothing.
Green tide secondary really looks like they want orks to play as a horde. Goonhammer pointed to engage as a better alternative but I think they're missing that if you're only in 2 quarters you still get points. Also a unit doesn't have to be 6" away from another quarter, just the models you wish to count.
I think Engage is easier to achieve, in general. Probably not with a whole footslogging army though. Green tide requires many more models to do the secondary and footslogging orks are very easy to kill.
No doubt engage is easier with a speed mob and a traditional ork list but maybe the new secondaries is pushing us to take more hordes. Realistically a horde of orks/grots is pretty terrible in combat and shooting but what does it matter if it gives a cool 40+ secondary points.
The horde lists I'm looking at are there to just die slowly(kff +painboy+transports+runtherder. 150+ models (including 9 characters, 90 grots and 3 battlewagons) 9th edition morale means there will always be some guys from a unit left after a morale check. I could be tabled by t5 but if I have 40 secondaries already and have remained competitive on primaries the game could be already won.
I listened to a podcast about a guard player with 9ish characters and he was saying it can be used as a trap. Vehicles to hide characters late game could be a good way to keep your opponents scoring low (especially as there is no way they're not getting prisoners)
Automatically Appended Next Post: The biggest and the best is (as all well balanced secondaries should be) situational. If your opponent can snipe a character a turn and there is no objective in no mans land where you can hide a character, maybe take a psychic secondary instead. However there are lots of armies that don't have that abilty and an ard as nails, super cybork boss will easily last 5 rounds if he is within 3" of a 3 unit model.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I don't know if engage is easier than green tides (especially with the change to needing to be 6" away from another table quarter). To get 15 cp you need to throw 2 units very close to your opponent t1 and you'll have to have one unit in all 4 quarters each 5 times. You could max green tides by just putting 3 units in 3 quarters 5 times while it also allows you to play reactively (put 4 in each quarter for 2 turns and then just finish with 10 models in one quarter...)
Its definitely list specific but I think the new secondaries should encourage us to try new list types.
No doubt engage is easier with a speed mob and a traditional ork list but maybe the new secondaries is pushing us to take more hordes. Realistically a horde of orks/grots is pretty terrible in combat and shooting but what does it matter if it gives a cool 40+ secondary points.
The horde lists I'm looking at are there to just die slowly(kff +painboy+transports+runtherder. 150+ models (including 9 characters, 90 grots and 3 battlewagons) 9th edition morale means there will always be some guys from a unit left after a morale check. I could be tabled by t5 but if I have 40 secondaries already and have remained competitive on primaries the game could be already won.
The problem is you won't be getting 40+ secondary points and green tide is too difficult to do effectively enough to max out reliably. Look at your list, 150 models You can realistically put 50 into 3 quarters each, do you have 3 KFFs and 3 Painboyz to babysit each mini blob? likely not. But even if you did, you've just given 50 T3/T5 (Grots/boyz) models a 6++ and a 6+++. ON average that reduces your casualties by about 30% (a lot less vs multi-dmg weapons) Every GT i've been to in 9th has me down to a handful of models by turn 4 let alone turn 5, you just aren't going to be able to pull this one off with enough models for long enough to max it out, engage is just better, the only difference I can see is that with Green tide, if you are extremely lucky and your opponent didn't bring a super killy list you can pull off 8pts in 2 turns before slamming into the lack of models turn 3 and making maybe 1-2 more points. But that relies a lot on whether or not your opponent has the right tools and whether or not you can deal enough dmg quickly enough to slow the bleed of models....which atm orkz don't really have as far as capability wise.
Jidmah wrote: You just need to roll a single 4+ to make it a +-0 CP thing though, and that is quite likely to happen. If you get more, great, if not, you lose nothing.
On the other hand, if you plan to play with secondary Psychic Interrogation, then the Cap is maybe not necessary.
(as we can gain max 1 CP per round)
I don't know if engage is easier than green tides (especially with the change to needing to be 6" away from another table quarter). To get 15 cp you need to throw 2 units very close to your opponent t1 and you'll have to have one unit in all 4 quarters each 5 times. You could max green tides by just putting 3 units in 3 quarters 5 times while it also allows you to play reactively (put 4 in each quarter for 2 turns and then just finish with 10 models in one quarter...)
Its definitely list specific but I think the new secondaries should encourage us to try new list types.
With full green tides? Probably not. But I'm not looking in fielding all infantry lists, on a regular basis at least, just the same mix between MSU and vehicles that I've brought in the entire edition. I'm not sure that a full footsloggin army is going to be good, orks die really fast and there are chances that you don't have much at top of 3 to score. We're too squishy to play the game of board control and die slowly, we have to go on the offensive with a significant portion of the army to reduce the losses.
I keep thinking, they have been hit just as hard, if not more so by AoC, dropping their hitting damage with dual choppa considerably and their hitting power with big choppas tremendously.
I am seriously annoyed the more I think about the fact that they were genuine "elite" units in 4th, 25ppm with WS5, 5++/4+++, a unique 2 wounds, and all the power weapons you like that fully ignored armor saves.
I still like to think that they might have a place in MSUs in transports, but they are so alike to Primaris Marines while being strictly worse defensively and probably worse offensively, that they don't seem to be worth the cost despite being on paper more efficient defensively than boyz.
They've also dropped relative to boyz in efficiency, as 18-9 was a 2-1 ratio, whereas 17-8 is a greater than 2-1 ratio. I am baffled as to why they were not dropped to 16.
To be interesting nobz need to be troops, and in an age of multiple multiwounds troops it wouldn't be absurd. Last time nobz were good was the codex in which they did count as troops, with a warboss in the list.
17ppm and 5-10 points weapons (power klaw used to be 25 points and 'eavy armour needed to be paid) is already pretty cheap, and yet the unit's useless. They can't really be any cheaper.
We have a massive codex with only 3 troops, 2 of them almost identical. And even if a battallion has 6 elite slots, with meganobz, kommandos and tankbustas those slots can be filled up pretty quickly. I know I wouldn't find a spared slot for nobz, especially with the new rules that make FA and HS much more limited.
Nobs really should be troops, it would also give them a reason to exist over meganobz.
Meganobs have always been unusually cheap compared to their unarmored brothers. Running a bunch of nobs with klaws was always a bad idea in the past as MANz got a 2+ armor and were either slightly more expensive or actually cheaper depending on the era were talking about.
It'd be no different than Immortals being troops. Necrons would probably hardcore abandon them if they were elites even if they were 2pts cheaper than they currently are lol.
Jidmah wrote: The issue with nobz is the same as it has always been. Without weapons they don't do anything, if you buy weapons for them, they get too expensive.
Pretty much. Meganobz have always been the less flexible but more cost efficient option, while Nobz had the utility of mix-matching multiple upgrades and weapons while also fitting more in a transport like a trukk (e.g., they could take a painboy, all take cybork bodies for the 5+ invuln, and a WAAAGH! banner as well as be on warbikes). However, over the course of the editions the options have been taken out (Cybork body becoming a pointless 6+ FNP instead, WAAAGH! banner became its own unit, Painboy became its own unit, Nobz on Warbikes were a separate datasheet) with nothing to really compensate for it besides a rarely used morale rule. Now we don't even have that, we just have a strat that nobody uses that they're able to access. Nobz have effectively been dismantled rules-wise as an elites choice and either need a serious rewrite (alongside other Nob equivalents like meganobz and flash gitz) or should be made into troops as mentioned before, because as it is, they don't hit hard enough nor can they take the punches, so they don't really do anything besides just be mediocre.
Even fluffwise it would make sense since the whole point of the Octarius War was how it was making normal boyz grow to almost Nob level due to all the constant diet of war that was fed to them from the Tyranids. So it would be a good way to reflect how Orks have been getting bigger from some of the major conflicts in the 41st millenium.
I don't know if engage is easier than green tides (especially with the change to needing to be 6" away from another table quarter). To get 15 cp you need to throw 2 units very close to your opponent t1 and you'll have to have one unit in all 4 quarters each 5 times. You could max green tides by just putting 3 units in 3 quarters 5 times while it also allows you to play reactively (put 4 in each quarter for 2 turns and then just finish with 10 models in one quarter...)
Its definitely list specific but I think the new secondaries should encourage us to try new list types.
With full green tides? Probably not. But I'm not looking in fielding all infantry lists, on a regular basis at least, just the same mix between MSU and vehicles that I've brought in the entire edition. I'm not sure that a full footsloggin army is going to be good, orks die really fast and there are chances that you don't have much at top of 3 to score. We're too squishy to play the game of board control and die slowly, we have to go on the offensive with a significant portion of the army to reduce the losses.
We do die real quick alrite. I'm looking at running 3 barebones battlewagons to hopefully increase survivability.I'm going to try and run a horde list this weekend and I'll let people know.
The change to engage makes 3 man bike squads (nobz and normal) better.
Keep in mind with engage there's a 12" dead zone similar to RND now.
I could see a world where Drive by Dakka becomes uber clutch going Suns (although no one goes Evil Suns anymore :( ), but I could see running into issues later game scoring Engage generally. I'd see it as maybe an 8 secondary as who really has fast assets left turn 5?
One good thing they could do with the codex in general is look at invulnerable save access, they finally gave in and baked it into warbosses.
That was easily the dumbest thing about the 7th ed codex, changing cybork to a 6+ FNP at 5ppm, which was incredibly inefficient. It makes even less sense when you can throw a combat shield or a storm shield on veteran marines for a reasonable price.
I was under the impression they were normally being run with cybork and painboy (+30) for 5++/4+++, which was actually very competitive for the cost compared to a 2+ meganob that had no save against power weapons. That's what made them appealing and different to meganobs.
A 4+ 2w model isn't even that appealing because of the amount of AP and 2D weapons.
I'd like to see them become truly elite infantry again since it's quite obvious they don't want to make them troops. And even if they did, would you use them over boyz? The only thing I like about them in that regard is that they would synergize a hell of a lot better with transports.
i'd use them over boyz as troops in a sense that i'd want both of them.
Thats a significant price change, so running strictly nobs for troops isnt that smart (probably) but its a vastly superior upgrade to one or two normally boyz squads to become nobz for a tactical reason beyond park it and hold that objective.
As an elite, they need to be more than slightly better than boyz, because we still bring the same number of boyz anyway.
tulun wrote: Nobs as troops at like.. 15 or 16 points would be alright.
In Goffs, that would be 5 base attacks, str 6 on the charge, with obsec, and exploding 6s. Under Waaagh, that's 6 attacks.
Even a unit of 5 would actually be an okay trading unit, and it would drastically reduce your footprint so you could avoid getting shot.
Their durability sucks, but it's Orks, our entire army has no durability.
Yeah, as troops they would be a glass hammer, but at least you can somewhat tailor them to focus them unlike boyz right now.
If they were to keep them as elites, they need to bring some type of force multiplier ability to nearby MOB units or really jack up their killiness in some way to make them actually feel like CC specialists while allowing Meganobz to be more on the durable side for objective holding.
CaptainO wrote: I'm looking at running 3 barebones battlewagons to hopefully increase survivability.I'm going to try and run a horde list this weekend and I'll let people know.
Maybe you could bring 5 trukks instead. T7 4+ battlewagons are actually trukks with a bit more wounds. But 3 BWs are 48W, 5 trukks are 50W, same transport capacity of 60 bodies, although with trukks you might end up with some empty seats but I'm not sure you need to have everything embarked. They'd cost +35 points but you'd get much more flexiblity and also durability, since they're 5 bodies instead of 3, easier to hide, and you can save heavy support slots for lootas and mek gunz if you want those.
Which might have an impact against low AP weapons but vs proper anti tank? it's a 6+ at best. Also, if a trukk can't be seen its armour save doesn't matter. Hiding a wagon is much harder.
3+ has a lot of impact against AP-1 and AP-2 weapons which includes rokkits, thunder hammers, battle cannons, plague mortars and similar weapons. All of those are quite dangerous to vehicles. You also take a lot less "splash" damage from stuff that's just shooting you because it can - these often cause trukks to lose 2 or 3 wounds before someone seriously tries to take one out.
As someone running trukks and battlewagons side by side of over a decade, I also assure you that trukks aren't much easier to hide than battlewagons unless you are hiding a trukk behind a battlewagon.
So i own the ork codex but literally haven't used the app in years (battlescribe is so much better) Can I see the points without needing a subscription? I just need to register my book ya?
Real poor sign of an app if I havent used it since it released and the free trial ended despite actually owning the codex...
No other points drops other than those found on the twisted dice youtube video no?
There is no change on Wazbooms. Full package is still 230.
Anyway. New points in pdf and not in the stupid book are great. I 'm really looking forward to the sweat futuristic future, when the price of FW models will be in the same PDF… I fully understand how dificult it is to add few lines to the pdf, so maybe 2-5 years of developement…
Tomsug wrote: There is no change on Wazbooms. Full package is still 230.
Anyway. New points in pdf and not in the stupid book are great. I 'm really looking forward to the sweat futuristic future, when the price of FW models will be in the same PDF… I fully understand how dificult it is to add few lines to the pdf, so maybe 2-5 years of developement…
And new dataslate confirmed for tomorrow.
Ignore that, their counting in singles... jesus man i really hate when they do that
Man dunno how you guy's handle all the discrepancies, but kinda wraps my head in these situations, or it's just me.
I will tune in on the dataslate. To be frank, i don't expect meaningful changes for us, i think this is as much as a bone as we will get.
glad to see the grots go down but still not even close to worth 4 points per model. boyz down 1 point but still morale will mean you lose as many boyz to morale as combat or shooting. small buff but taken into account the buffs to marines and other factions... not looking good for the greenskins overall
G00fySmiley wrote: glad to see the grots go down but still not even close to worth 4 points per model. boyz down 1 point but still morale will mean you lose as many boyz to morale as combat or shooting. small buff but taken into account the buffs to marines and other factions... not looking good for the greenskins overall
I disagree. Get the good bitz is an amazing secondary, and you could possibly max it in 3 rounds with 80 points of grots. It is a really good deal.
G00fySmiley wrote: glad to see the grots go down but still not even close to worth 4 points per model. boyz down 1 point but still morale will mean you lose as many boyz to morale as combat or shooting. small buff but taken into account the buffs to marines and other factions... not looking good for the greenskins overall
I disagree. Get the good bitz is an amazing secondary, and you could possibly max it in 3 rounds with 80 points of grots. It is a really good deal.
GTBG has definitely given grots back a little niche. At least if you pack them into a BW to soak explosion wounds from MANz, they can bail out and start performing actions midfield rather than scratch their backsides and wait to die.
Yeah, we won't have enough cp to not take troops anymore for lists other than army of reknown that gets worse and worse with how killy and tough things become all around us (but not us).
Killtigs are back to 190 but are they still worth it?
Overall, others got better cuts but I guess, we're around where we used to be pre-point change if you compare. Meh.
These changes are nice and all but we really need a dataslate buff for this to matter enough.
I'm glad to see they've conceded their "every model costs 5 points" crap. A grot being the floor at 4 points makes more sense! Kroot, Guardsmen (etc) cost 50% more. More wiggle room at the bottom now.
I mean we haven’t heard any rumors on the dataslate so don’t expect major changes…
At best I hope they remove the buggy limit. Which really isn’t going to do much anymore especially since detachment and FA slots are limited.
I mean we can hope for fw nob bikers updates but the army of renown train has left already. I mean maybe removing warlord limit would be okay but again relic warlord trait changes limit the effectiveness of that buff.
My point is there isn’t much rules changes that will help orks we literally need a new codex as fundamental issues like morale, strategems, and keywords issues hurt orks the most.
gungo wrote: I mean we haven’t heard any rumors on the dataslate so don’t expect major changes…
At best I hope they remove the buggy limit. Which really isn’t going to do much anymore especially since detachment and FA slots are limited.
I mean we can hope for fw nob bikers updates but the army of renown train has left already. I mean maybe removing warlord limit would be okay but again relic warlord trait changes limit the effectiveness of that buff.
My point is there isn’t much rules changes that will help orks we literally need a new codex as fundamental issues like morale, strategems, and keywords issues hurt orks the most.
Oh, I'm not expecting the moon, but AoC was a nice surprise.
But yes, Orks are likely still a low-mid 40s faction no matter what if we're lucky. The top factions got chipped down and we got slightly pushed up.
Madjob wrote: I doubt nob biker changes would appear in a dataslate instead of an errata update to the FW compendium.
GW has not been doing anything but the absolut minimum for the FW rules for any faction, including the studio favorites like eldar, tau or knights. The absolutely won't fix ork units now.
FW is legends 2.0 now, you just get datasheets to play those models, but that's about it.
We will just have to accept that any FW unit remains as bad as it is until the next book.
Yes, I am almost at a point of considering a min squad of Big Choppa Nobz. 100 points for a basic 15 swings St Ap1 D2 feels like a decent throwaway unit with a tad support. And a choice of Warboss, Goff, Waagh! etc. on top.
Not going to take down Custodes, but for the general midboard scrum vs MEQ et. al their durability and threat level might be worth the distraction?
Scactha wrote: Yes, I am almost at a point of considering a min squad of Big Choppa Nobz. 100 points for a basic 15 swings St Ap1 D2 feels like a decent throwaway unit with a tad support. And a choice of Warboss, Goff, Waagh! etc. on top.
Not going to take down Custodes, but for the general midboard scrum vs MEQ et. al their durability and threat level might be worth the distraction?
Keep in mind that against MEQ, big choppas are AP0 now. I've move back to adding two PKs in my mobs just to handle mek. Not a great unit at all, I'm just lucky enough that many of my opponent still get PTSD from facing my nobz in 5th edition so they blast them with everything they have, which means that they act as free grot shields for more efficient units like burnas, kommadoz or storm boyz.
Scactha wrote: Yes, I am almost at a point of considering a min squad of Big Choppa Nobz. 100 points for a basic 15 swings St Ap1 D2 feels like a decent throwaway unit with a tad support. And a choice of Warboss, Goff, Waagh! etc. on top.
Not going to take down Custodes, but for the general midboard scrum vs MEQ et. al their durability and threat level might be worth the distraction?
Keep in mind that against MEQ, big choppas are AP0 now. I've move back to adding two PKs in my mobs just to handle mek. Not a great unit at all, I'm just lucky enough that many of my opponent still get PTSD from facing my nobz in 5th edition so they blast them with everything they have, which means that they act as free grot shields for more efficient units like burnas, kommadoz or storm boyz.
Fair point. 100 or 110 is much the same. As you allude to, as long as you don´t expect a trade, but a diversion, this works.
We won a LOT more than we expected in this new dataslate. I honestly thought they wouldn't change anything for us. This alongside the changes for Necrons is really great. This with the points cuts and secondary changes will make playing Orks a lot more interesting for the next few months.
Also, I find it hilarious that we can now have 5++ invuln grots punching at S3 and 2 attacks each during a WAAAGH. Hell, it's a good boost for taking a warboss in a dreadmob style list now, makes it so Kanz and Deff dreadz don't need a KFF to get saves against all the anti-tank weaponry running around nowadays.
the waaagh is good, but not addressing the morale issues beyond reducing losses for a turn by 1/3. It defiantly is not nothing but after orks screaming about morale since release of the codex... still no fix.
I appreciate the buggy change being approved though. just letting rule of 3 do the job with minor modification in case somebody wanted to vehicle squads.
I don't think it's gonna change much. We're still not punching through armor of contempt of Marines that have also become cheaper with that +1 str.
8pt boyz are still too expensive.
Being able to get msu buggies is not too bad tho, however, with fewer cp you won't be able to use it too effectively.
4 pt grots are nice tho.
5++ is only in your turn, so, you still need kff and 2cp. You also loose half a turn of protecrion if you go second.
Basically, compared to other factions, we're around where we used to be.
Looks like it’s still goff/bloodaxe pressure lists…
Although it is kinda interesting are boys decent again? Or is beastsnaggas better?
Are trukk boys ok now that they are str5 and 3 atks each on charge?
I mean ap0-1 is still awful so I’d say no on a single squad of trukk boys and it’s better to use the specialist mob on grots for objective play or boomboys on a wazbom.
But I think there is a debate on using boys over beastsnaggas now …
The difference of str 7 over str 6 is negliable and the invul makes up for the beast snaggas built in invul.
I mean if you are taking killrigs instead of wagons go beastsnagga but boys are okay…
gungo wrote: Looks like it’s still goff/bloodaxe pressure lists…
Although it is kinda interesting are boys decent again? Or is beastsnaggas better?
Are trukk boys ok now that they are str5 and 3 atks each on charge?
I mean ap0-1 is still awful so I’d say no on a single squad of trukk boys and it’s better to use the specialist mob on grots for objective play.
No for trulkboyz as trucks are still awfully overpriced.
However, you might give a shot for 105 pt bare wagons if you have some and don't lack hs slots. They still die extremely easy but are better than trucks point for point.
I'd not sure if placing boyz in there is gonna be worth it. 10 s5 boyz are gonna kill 2-3 meq and 0-1 terminator. Not a great investment considering how expensive they still are. They need a way to become ap2 now. But there is none I'm aware of. So, not good vs Marines. Might be ok vs eldar of sorts. Depends on your meta.
I mean you have to take troops anyway…
I was just theorizing of the viability over beastsnaggas..
But better units would be warbikers and deffkoptas who benefit greatly from 5++/6++
And +1 str… goff deffkoptas especially with +2 str on charge and +1 atk.
We throw out alot of high str6-7 atks with low ap..
Also all the major S tier lists were brought down hard..
I think sisters will be a problem but I think orks will be okay and somewhere in B tier.
The 5+ invuln army wide for that critical turn where you break cover and charge in is huuuuge. It's like the old KFF but army wide and also works in combat and is free!
Coupled with the points decreases I think that puts Kill rigs full of lads firmly back on the radar.
The +1 S for two turns also opens up more Clan options not sure if Goffs is quite the auto take it was.
Buggy changes is just a nice little quality of life boost.
Goff Koptas get 9 attacks each at S7 with exploding sixes on the charge.
A mob of five throws out 45 attacks, and can use the MW strats if they're Speed Mob.
It would have been nice to also get some extra AP on the charge, but we might be able to head back toward drowning things in volume of attacks rather than quality attacks.
koooaei wrote: I don't think it's gonna change much. We're still not punching through armor of contempt of Marines that have also become cheaper with that +1 str.
8pt boyz are still too expensive.
Being able to get msu buggies is not too bad tho, however, with fewer cp you won't be able to use it too effectively.
4 pt grots are nice tho.
5++ is only in your turn, so, you still need kff and 2cp. You also loose half a turn of protecrion if you go second.
Basically, compared to other factions, we're around where we used to be.
When you call the Waaagh! the first stage lasts until your next command phase at which it point it triggers the second stage which lasts until the command phase after that. So you retain the 5+ and then the 6+ in your opponents turns.
Unless I'm misinterpreting you and you are saying that we don't benefit from the invuln on turn 1 if we go second. which is true. But you can hide a lot of your army or just outrange your opponent on turn 1. It's very rare that we get alpha'd turn one. We tend to get wrecked the turn after we commit.
The way I'd see it: you take a KFF for a reactive 5++ invul in the first battle round against a shooty army. It's a good use of CP when we might start seeing Orks starting a lot more models out of transport and on the board and they won't instantly all evaporate.
Either you go first and get to move stuff up and soak up the damage, or you go 2nd and your stuff in the open will at least have a decent chance of survival.
Then turn 2 call Waaaagh and get your 5++ army wide.
Means we have Turn 1 army wide 5++ (toe in that 9" kff), turn 2 army wide 5++, and turn 3 army wide 6++.
Will it make Orks S tier? No, but this along with points drops absolutely helps.
The way I'd see it: you take a KFF for a reactive 5++ invul in the first battle round against a shooty army. It's a good use of CP when we might start seeing Orks starting a lot more models out of transport and on the board and they won't instantly all evaporate.
Either you go first and get to move stuff up and soak up the damage, or you go 2nd and your stuff in the open will at least have a decent chance of survival.
Then turn 2 call Waaaagh and get your 5++ army wide.
Means we have Turn 1 army wide 5++ (toe in that 9" kff), turn 2 army wide 5++, and turn 3 army wide 6++.
Will it make Orks S tier? No, but this along with points drops absolutely helps.
My thoughts exactly. I have a bloodaxe list lined up for playing on Sunday, I'm definitely looking forward to how this pans out.
And Reddit is now saying all kustom jobs are free because GW forgot to include points for them.. but it’s never been included in the points update sooo..
I said a few pages back that an extra +1 s for the waagh would be cool.
I get that extra ap would be nice but I think its important that each faction has its own flavour. It makes sense orks hit hard but don't have high tech weapons to cut through armour.
The dataslate changes for boyz (and to a lesser extent snaggas and grots) combined with green tide make hordes more tempting.
The change to buggies is also welcome.
I agree with tulun that it doesnt make us S tier (seeing that S tier armies are bad for the meta thats no bad thing) but we have definitely improved.
I mean between the choice of nobs and kommandos, I’d still max out goff kommandos..
Breachas being str8 on charge and 3+ 5++
Nobs being str 9 on charge…
Basic kommandos being str6…
You don’t really need nobs as they don’t offer anything more for the cost..
I mean str8 nobs are cool but still slow and easily killed
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dr.Duck wrote: What is the change to buggies that people are refering to? All I see on the errata is the restriction of 3 per buggy in an army.
Oh I get it. But is that actually like feasible? We likely not gonna have the FA slots to spare?
If you don’t need to use all your FA slots it’s better to take 3 individual scrapjets then a unit of 3, same with all buggies… however I agree with trying to stay within 1 detachment it’s not really feasible with a lot of great units in FA.. it does allow you to take shokk jumps seperately and squigbuggies w kustom job easier…
gungo wrote: I mean between the choice of nobs and kommandos, I’d still max out goff kommandos..
Breachas being str8 on charge and 3+ 5++
Nobs being str 9 on charge…
Basic kommandos being str6…
You don’t really need nobs as they don’t offer anything more for the cost..
I mean str8 nobs are cool but still slow and easily killed
You pay 10 more for the kommandos, same wounds and 5 more if you want a claw + 5 for breacha, also i am under the impression the breach is for 1 model only, so 3 attacks at what you mentioned plus 4 for claw (added waagh for both), rest is all choppa so 8x3 attcks
Not sure about you but nobz have 3 attacks each, so 4, thats 20 attacks at S9 AP -2 on charge.Also you can add choppas for 5 extra attacks at S7.
We can argue over nobz foot slogging and we have tools to solve that. What i wont argue is over what is killy.
Quickly tossed together Goff list with new points:
Brigade --
MA Boss, Cybork Body, 'Ard as Nails
MAKff Mek, relic Shoota
Painboss, Big Gob (6" FNP aura)
40 Snaggas
20 Grots
10 Kommandos, 1 w/ Klaw
10 Hogs
5 Deff Copters
8 Mega Nobs
15 Stormboyz
3 KMK Mek Guns
1 Truck
Take Da Good Bits, Da biggest, then either engage or Green Tide.
Turn 1 pop 5++ KFF if need be. Have grots hop outside my truck to do good bits, and start good bits with 1 hog squad on other flank. Have 2nd grot squad re-enter truck to do it turn 2 (will assume first grots are probably dead). Move the phalanx forward, get my MA boss onto an objective midboard to score 2 for Da Biggest and hope to keep doing this for a few turns.
Turn 2, pop the waaagh, have the copters go out of deep strike, and do a big push.
It's why people tend towards double choppa. 5 attacks each, 6 under waaagh, at str 7 sounds good to me for less points.
I admit i was wrong on the AP part, but that doesn't make them that bad.
85 for nobz is a steal with choppas at S7 with 30 attacks and same amount of wounds as kommandos which would be at 110pts.
For 15 extra points you get S9 20 atacks AP -1 damage 2. That's all i am saying.
By the way is the kustoms jobs free or not, getting confused about it.
gungo wrote: I mean between the choice of nobs and kommandos, I’d still max out goff kommandos..
Breachas being str8 on charge and 3+ 5++
Nobs being str 9 on charge…
Basic kommandos being str6…
You don’t really need nobs as they don’t offer anything more for the cost..
I mean str8 nobs are cool but still slow and easily killed
You pay 10 more for the kommandos, same wounds and 5 more if you want a claw + 5 for breacha, also i am under the impression the breach is for 1 model only, so 3 attacks at what you mentioned plus 4 for claw (added waagh for both), rest is all choppa so 8x3 attcks
Not sure about you but nobz have 3 attacks each, so 4, thats 20 attacks at S9 AP -2 on charge.Also you can add choppas for 5 extra attacks at S7.
We can argue over nobz foot slogging and we have tools to solve that. What i wont argue is over what is killy.
Nobs are 17 points each and a 5 man squad is 30x str 7 ap-1 choppa atks..@85 and 10wounds. If you decide to give each of them (which I would) a BC at 3pts each for 15 pts that’s 100pts for
20x str9 ap-1 BC and 5x str7 ap-1 choppa…
Compared to kommandos at 11points each for a 10 man squad at 41x str 6 ap-1 choppa atks @110pts and 11 wounds (more wounds).. I’d definitely take a bomb squig and PK at 5pts each for a total of +10pts and I’m still only paying 120pts for this unit that doesn’t need a transport and hinders my opponents ability to Get to thier midfield Objectives. (The breacha is debateable at +5 pts.) anyway the above kommando unit is
36x str6 ap-1 choppa atks (+1 to wound in terrain), and 4x str10 ap-2 d2 pkatks (+1 to wound in terrain) plus bomb squig…
Regardless they both compete for elite slots… the Kommandos cost 20pts more have More wounds, better saves, significantly more atks and Don’t require a transport. Imho nobs are still overpriced by at least 1pt but really 2. Nobs have +1 str but you do a lot less atks which you need when everything is -1ap (except klaw/saw)
Regardless they both compete for elite slots… the Kommandos cost 20pts more have More wounds, better saves, significantly more atks and Don’t require a transport. Imho nobs are still overpriced by at least 1pt but really 2. Nobs have +1 str but you do a lot less atks which you need when everything is -1ap (except klaw/saw)
To be fair kommandos have a better save.... while in cover. In combat, and we're talking about a melee unit, they're t-shirt save dudes while nobz have 4+ save. So against other models that don't wield melee weapons with high AP nobz are definitely tougher.
I don't think nobz are overpriced. They're just useless. Being elite and with their current rules/wargear they can either be too cheap and spammable or too expensive. They need to be troops, period. Then they'd be a legit option as they are, they could even be 1 or 2 points per model more expensive actually and still be ok.
but it should be fun.
) You aim to the future!
