If boyz went to 6ppm (which they wont this edition) they would have to reduce grots to 2 models per 5 points spend, and i also highly doubt that will happen.
GW is doing everything they can to prevent factions from being too horde esque, which is why when our grots are 5ppm now, we still arent incentivised to spam them with +1 to your attrition roll and a pitiful leadership of 4.
GW does not want us to spam too hard, so boyz at 6ppm wont happen. i highly doubt they even go to 7 ppm without changes to grots either. And that i doubt will happen. because you would see an absolute sea of grots if they went to 2 models at 5ppm.
I'm fine with them not having us spam models if that meant that they were actually worth taking for the points. As is, it feels arbitrary and wrong that our core units actively make our list worse than if we don't take them.
Dark synergy rised up from deepest deeps of the internet:
Attack out of da Sun is used on the end of the turn. So you can use it MULTIPLE TIMES PER TURN! So you can have 3x6 Koptas disappear on the end.
Because rules for strategems EXPLICITELY EXCLUDE the End of the Turn strategems from the limitation “once per phase”
And you can score Stranglehold with them because it is counted also On the end of the turn and RAW the player whos turn it is decide the sequencing.
And yes, it ´ s 4VP per turn, so unless BloodAxe combos you can do it once, maybe twice a game. No more. And you can be screened out to the corners of your own deployment zone. So it ´s definitely not such broken as it seems on the first sight.
Who will be the first one who do it in online stream of the final round of some GT and cause the seizure to Sigler and comp. ?
Beardedragon wrote: If boyz went to 6ppm (which they wont this edition) they would have to reduce grots to 2 models per 5 points spend, and i also highly doubt that will happen.
GW is doing everything they can to prevent factions from being too horde esque, which is why when our grots are 5ppm now, we still arent incentivised to spam them with +1 to your attrition roll and a pitiful leadership of 4.
GW does not want us to spam too hard, so boyz at 6ppm wont happen. i highly doubt they even go to 7 ppm without changes to grots either. And that i doubt will happen. because you would see an absolute sea of grots if they went to 2 models at 5ppm.
Boyz at 9ppm are fine, so are gretchins at 5ppm considering the points costs of the units from all the factions in 9th. They just need better rules/stats, not to be cheaper. They're both already among the cheapest troops in the game.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tomsug wrote: Dark synergy rised up from deepest deeps of the internet:
Attack out of da Sun is used on the end of the turn. So you can use it MULTIPLE TIMES PER TURN! So you can have 3x6 Koptas disappear on the end.
Because rules for strategems EXPLICITELY EXCLUDE the End of the Turn strategems from the limitation “once per phase”
That sounds more like a loophole/mistake than an intended mechanics. I don't think it'll last.
Beardedragon wrote: If boyz went to 6ppm (which they wont this edition) they would have to reduce grots to 2 models per 5 points spend, and i also highly doubt that will happen.
GW is doing everything they can to prevent factions from being too horde esque, which is why when our grots are 5ppm now, we still arent incentivised to spam them with +1 to your attrition roll and a pitiful leadership of 4.
GW does not want us to spam too hard, so boyz at 6ppm wont happen. i highly doubt they even go to 7 ppm without changes to grots either. And that i doubt will happen. because you would see an absolute sea of grots if they went to 2 models at 5ppm.
I'd be happy for grots to stay at 5ppm if they were worth taking at 5ppm. Make Grot Shields a datasheet ability where they confer a 5++ on units being shot at through the grots (passed saves take casualties from the grot unit) and boom, grots are very reasonably priced as a utility unit even with a terrible statline.
If boys had an ability that increased how many boys can fight at once (like the one Hormagaunts get) and an actually worthwhile mob rule they would be definitely worth their 9ppm.
I could see shoota boys getting a price drop if they were a separate datasheet though.
Tomsug wrote: Dark synergy rised up from deepest deeps of the internet:
Attack out of da Sun is used on the end of the turn. So you can use it MULTIPLE TIMES PER TURN! So you can have 3x6 Koptas disappear on the end.
Because rules for strategems EXPLICITELY EXCLUDE the End of the Turn strategems from the limitation “once per phase”
That sounds more like a loophole/mistake than an intended mechanics. I don't think it'll last.
Well, I don' t have a confidence to say, what is what. And I have a stronger and stronger feeling of some ork PTSD “we cannot have a strong combo because ugly GW so if we found something, it should be a mistake”. Or at least I feel it on myself…
This combo is nothing new. It last over two dataslates and some faqs/nerfs for 4-5 months already. What surprised me is, that nobody found it jet. We should see it 4-5 months ago.
Generaly the “use multiple times “mechanic on strategems is nothing new and widely used. We use it for Extra Gunbinz and Big Boss regularly. Now as I see, we can use it for Telyporta too, which is nothing new honestly.
Is there some similar strategem situation in some other army? Anybody any ideas?
Beardedragon wrote: If boyz went to 6ppm (which they wont this edition) they would have to reduce grots to 2 models per 5 points spend, and i also highly doubt that will happen.
GW is doing everything they can to prevent factions from being too horde esque, which is why when our grots are 5ppm now, we still arent incentivised to spam them with +1 to your attrition roll and a pitiful leadership of 4.
GW does not want us to spam too hard, so boyz at 6ppm wont happen. i highly doubt they even go to 7 ppm without changes to grots either. And that i doubt will happen. because you would see an absolute sea of grots if they went to 2 models at 5ppm.
Boyz at 9ppm are fine, so are gretchins at 5ppm considering the points costs of the units from all the factions in 9th. They just need better rules/stats, not to be cheaper. They're both already among the cheapest troops in the game.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tomsug wrote: Dark synergy rised up from deepest deeps of the internet:
Attack out of da Sun is used on the end of the turn. So you can use it MULTIPLE TIMES PER TURN! So you can have 3x6 Koptas disappear on the end.
Because rules for strategems EXPLICITELY EXCLUDE the End of the Turn strategems from the limitation “once per phase”
That sounds more like a loophole/mistake than an intended mechanics. I don't think it'll last.
Talking purely out of 9th edition, I highly doubt we get better boyz with different rules added as that happens rarely. Whats most likely to happen are point reductions, and i dont see GW cutting Boyz any slacks there either. so i really have no hope for boyz atm.
On a different note since i dont really use Squighog boyz that often; Goffs dont increase the jaw attacks strength do they? As they are a fixed value? And the consensus on straight out of da sun" is that we can use it in the same turn we appeared? So arrive turn 2, shoot, do what ever, and fly out?
Gw is mostly done w orks this edition. We will get the rest of the 9th Ed codex this year following the already leaked release schedule… and reportedly we are looking at 10th edition sometime in 2023 (probably thier usual summer release) with that likely a new space marine codex and whatever the new antagonist army is.. I mean if we are lucky it’s a return to armeggedon with something like the main antagonist being Angron vs space marines. With orks getting a focus because of the setting.
I don’t see any quick fix that GW can do to fix the majority of the ork codex especially as stretched as the rules team is…
I’m hoping 10th edition gives orks a cool new plastic unit like a unit of cyborks that gets like a base movement of 7in (like painboss) and a built in 5+ invul or fnp or something. But we also need new tankbustas, a new weirdboy, and a few characters in plastic.
Tomsug wrote: Dark synergy rised up from deepest deeps of the internet:
Attack out of da Sun is used on the end of the turn. So you can use it MULTIPLE TIMES PER TURN! So you can have 3x6 Koptas disappear on the end.
Because rules for strategems EXPLICITELY EXCLUDE the End of the Turn strategems from the limitation “once per phase”
And you can score Stranglehold with them because it is counted also On the end of the turn and RAW the player whos turn it is decide the sequencing.
And yes, it ´ s 4VP per turn, so unless BloodAxe combos you can do it once, maybe twice a game. No more. And you can be screened out to the corners of your own deployment zone. So it ´s definitely not such broken as it seems on the first sight.
Who will be the first one who do it in online stream of the final round of some GT and cause the seizure to Sigler and comp. ?
I saw this on Reddit. Tldr is because it occurs at the end of the turn you can use the strat multiple times.
You'll get some looks in a tournament but as far as I can see it checks out. Definitely one to send to the TO beforehand so they can be pre warned.
One thing that I’d like to see is doing enough games collectively with the 8th dex compared to the 9th dex in at least competitively themed games at a lgs to see if the 8th dex would perform better than the 9th dex in 9th. I might be squig brained, but I think that we could do better with the 8th edition codex.
I mean 8th Ed only really had green tide.
Even a slightly cheaper boy blob w old mob rules, 5++ kff and and a few extra atks will not help.
You are basically playing the center objective game hoping your boy blob blocks the objective and survives. Even w geeentide strat. That boy blob is wiped out by turn 2-3.
Beardedragon wrote: If boyz went to 6ppm (which they wont this edition) they would have to reduce grots to 2 models per 5 points spend, and i also highly doubt that will happen.
GW is doing everything they can to prevent factions from being too horde esque, which is why when our grots are 5ppm now, we still arent incentivised to spam them with +1 to your attrition roll and a pitiful leadership of 4.
GW does not want us to spam too hard, so boyz at 6ppm wont happen. i highly doubt they even go to 7 ppm without changes to grots either. And that i doubt will happen. because you would see an absolute sea of grots if they went to 2 models at 5ppm.
If that's the case then why do other armies have access to models at that points base?
For example Kroot are 6ppm. And I would argue this cheapness, coupled with the pre-game move and standard Move of 7" makes them far better than ork boyz.
Ultimately in this edition you want your troops to be cheap, to move up and to sit on objectives, that's by and large what most factions troops do. In some cases like Skitari rangers/vanguard they can even stack a few synergies and do some damage output as well but basically they are in your list to give you some chaff to play the mission and you can then add damage dealers or durability to taste with the rest of your points. TBH I'd take a reduction back to T4 if it meant 6 ppm any day of the week and twice on Sundays.
And as somebody else already said if Boyz are going to be 9 ppm then they need to actually do something in game to justify that. Compare an ork boy at 9 ppm to practically anything else at that price base which has even the most basic of guns and its zero comparison, Boyz are slow, hit like wet noodles now into AoC, and are wearing a t shirt so have zero durability. The T5 thing would have been nice in a bolter melta but we aren't in a bolter meta. T5 is largely irrelevant.
What box does an ork boy at 9ppm tick realistically?
gungo wrote: I mean 8th Ed only really had green tide.
Even a slightly cheaper boy blob w old mob rules, 5++ kff and and a few extra atks will not help.
You are basically playing the center objective game hoping your boy blob blocks the objective and survives. Even w geeentide strat. That boy blob is wiped out by turn 2-3.
Boyz with their 5++ and ignore morale were a good bit tougher per point than current ones, and into power armor the more attacks with skarboyz are better into a lot of matchups. Weirdboyz were also much more reliable and we had far greater mobility in general. There’s also stuff like burna bommer, mek gunz splitting, and all that stuff.
Beardedragon wrote: If boyz went to 6ppm (which they wont this edition) they would have to reduce grots to 2 models per 5 points spend, and i also highly doubt that will happen.
GW is doing everything they can to prevent factions from being too horde esque, which is why when our grots are 5ppm now, we still arent incentivised to spam them with +1 to your attrition roll and a pitiful leadership of 4.
GW does not want us to spam too hard, so boyz at 6ppm wont happen. i highly doubt they even go to 7 ppm without changes to grots either. And that i doubt will happen. because you would see an absolute sea of grots if they went to 2 models at 5ppm.
If that's the case then why do other armies have access to models at that points base?
For example Kroot are 6ppm. And I would argue this cheapness, coupled with the pre-game move and standard Move of 7" makes them far better than ork boyz.
Ultimately in this edition you want your troops to be cheap, to move up and to sit on objectives, that's by and large what most factions troops do. In some cases like Skitari rangers/vanguard they can even stack a few synergies and do some damage output as well but basically they are in your list to give you some chaff to play the mission and you can then add damage dealers or durability to taste with the rest of your points. TBH I'd take a reduction back to T4 if it meant 6 ppm any day of the week and twice on Sundays.
And as somebody else already said if Boyz are going to be 9 ppm then they need to actually do something in game to justify that. Compare an ork boy at 9 ppm to practically anything else at that price base which has even the most basic of guns and its zero comparison, Boyz are slow, hit like wet noodles now into AoC, and are wearing a t shirt so have zero durability. The T5 thing would have been nice in a bolter melta but we aren't in a bolter meta. T5 is largely irrelevant.
What box does an ork boy at 9ppm tick realistically?
Because spamming a horde army of kroot wont win you the game, but orks have been notorious for working as a horde faction. Our damage and amount of attacks are quite decent if we can have enough models survive. In previous edition as Goffs, you could get up to like 6 attacks per model with ghaz, being above 20 models and a weirdboy.
And mind you there has been armies out there in the previous edition with up to 200 grots. GW was not interested in that in this edition so they made sure we wouldnt do that again. they even removed Obsec from our Grots. GW gave us better.. "better" defence by getting toughness 5 (but smashed the KFF and morale phase so i guess.. nothing changed) and in their mind that gave us more quality survival than we had before. but when all is added up we didnt become more duable at all. by making us 9ppm rather than 8 we couldnt horde quite as hard as before. mob rule change also made that quite a thing and the auto pass morale stratagem costing 2 CP now also means theres little incentive in even hording boyz.
An army of 2000 points of kroot wont win against 2000 points of ork boyz.
I dont think i can even recall any horde armies doing actually well competitively atm.
I don’t get GW’s aversion to hordes though, 120 boyz is eleven boxes of boyz, that’s a solid chunk of profits especially factoring in paints.
I think, and i mean only think, that it might be related to the time it takes to play over 200 grots? I mean, the general game is 2000 points at tournaments, and if you can put down an army that cant be played within the time frame of 3 hours, with their own set of 2000 points, that might set a bad example.
So maybe thats why they are cutting down on horde armies from growing too large in size. I mean sure some might be able to throw 200 grots around with extra models next to it, but a lot would struggle.
And then theres the issue of having 200 models that are all obsec. It stops incentivizes you from actually playing and just sitting on objectives, which is why i think Grots dont have Obsec.
Which is complete and utter bollocks considering the new missions have a decent junk of maps requiring units to be Obsec to gain benefits, like placing bombs or being able to move off the objective while still holding it. Nice going GW.
I swear to god, no troop choice should ever NOT have Obsec no matter what GWs reasoning is.The whole point of grots is to do actions, the whole point of boyz is to hit things. Why would i waste my Obsec boyz putting demolition charges. Thats grots work. yet here we are and grots arent even Obsec so.. yea
Tomsug wrote: Dark synergy rised up from deepest deeps of the internet:
Attack out of da Sun is used on the end of the turn. So you can use it MULTIPLE TIMES PER TURN! So you can have 3x6 Koptas disappear on the end.
Because rules for strategems EXPLICITELY EXCLUDE the End of the Turn strategems from the limitation “once per phase”
And you can score Stranglehold with them because it is counted also On the end of the turn and RAW the player whos turn it is decide the sequencing.
And yes, it ´ s 4VP per turn, so unless BloodAxe combos you can do it once, maybe twice a game. No more. And you can be screened out to the corners of your own deployment zone. So it ´s definitely not such broken as it seems on the first sight.
Who will be the first one who do it in online stream of the final round of some GT and cause the seizure to Sigler and comp. ?
The sequencing order is interesting as it means that it not only works with stranglehold but also behind enemy lines and engage.
I'm of the firm belief that I we want any change we're going to have to force GW to look at orks. Attack out of the sun shenanigans appears to be the only way to grab attention.
The squeeky wheel gets the grease. (And by grease I mean rules clarifications, points drops and buffs)
Madjob wrote: Green tide would explain the KFF protection for the Boyz too - KFF covers them, Snaggas have their natural 6++. He's just counting on weight of T5 6++ and the threat of his actual punchy units to force the opponent to make hard choices on stopping scoring or letting him ram a bunch of squigs and/or MANz into the softest available targets. Makes sense that Tau would have been able to deal with it the best.
Agree with this assessment. I do a similar thing with BA and DukkAnKuvva to stop one Mob being shot. That frees the rest of the list up to work on the enemy.
As someone else mentioned Green Tide forces the opponent into choices. No one wants to pick on Boyz when Manz are around, but if it means loss of points there´s a decision.
Or maybe he did Bitz. Also possible with so many mobs.
I don’t get GW’s aversion to hordes though, 120 boyz is eleven boxes of boyz, that’s a solid chunk of profits especially factoring in paints.
I think, and i mean only think, that it might be related to the time it takes to play over 200 grots? I mean, the general game is 2000 points at tournaments, and if you can put down an army that cant be played within the time frame of 3 hours, with their own set of 2000 points, that might set a bad example.
So maybe thats why they are cutting down on horde armies from growing too large in size. I mean sure some might be able to throw 200 grots around with extra models next to it, but a lot would struggle.
And then theres the issue of having 200 models that are all obsec. It stops incentivizes you from actually playing and just sitting on objectives, which is why i think Grots dont have Obsec.
Which is complete and utter bollocks considering the new missions have a decent junk of maps requiring units to be Obsec to gain benefits, like placing bombs or being able to move off the objective while still holding it. Nice going GW.
I swear to god, no troop choice should ever NOT have Obsec no matter what GWs reasoning is.The whole point of grots is to do actions, the whole point of boyz is to hit things. Why would i waste my Obsec boyz putting demolition charges. Thats grots work. yet here we are and grots arent even Obsec so.. yea
The thing is though is the fact that that’s player skill. There’s often chess clocks in the places where time actually matters, and if you want to run 200 grots (actually kinda small for a grot horde imo) you have to be good to actually effectively use them within the chess clock time. Also, objectives are sort of the entire point of the game, what’s wrong with making a list to prioritize sitting on them, I don’t hear people complaining about termi lists made to do that. It’s actually worse with termis imo because you actually kill a lot of grots.
We were using attack out of da sun, ork players just aren’t schemy gitz who tend to lawyer over the little tiny details like that. Options that are viable are also just sort of a rare occurrence, there’s things that can work but you realize something else does it but just better.
Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote: We were using attack out of da sun, ork players just aren’t schemy gitz who tend to lawyer over the little tiny details like that. Options that are viable are also just sort of a rare occurrence, there’s things that can work but you realize something else does it but just better.
And not to mention the fact that...rarely if ever are that many Koptas alive past turn 1-2 because the enemy firepower is now so ridiculous that removing a 4 wound T5 model with ramshackle and a 4+ save isn't all that hard. Those aforementioned Voidweavers love matchups against Deffkoptas because they make their points back relatively quickly.
Grimskul wrote: I'm fine with them not having us spam models if that meant that they were actually worth taking for the points. As is, it feels arbitrary and wrong that our core units actively make our list worse than if we don't take them.
I agree, someone in here was comparing Boyz to Kroot....don't do that, Kroot are 1/3rd less points than a boy, go compare it instead to a tau firewarrior who is the same price and is putting out S5 Ap-1 shots at 36' range, usually hitting on 3s, and if you get to within 18' its 2 shots, and they have even more buffs which synergize really well with them.
For instance, did you know that in CC a Tau Firewarrior unit can shoot pistols and use a cheap strat to give their rifle a Pistol 2 profile. Think about what I just said, that means a Firewarrior unit...in CC, is putting out 3 S5AP-1 shots hitting on 4s, Put another way, they average 1.5 hits, 0.75wounds and 0.75 dead Boyz per Tau. A unit of 10 is killing 7.5 boyz in the shooting phase while in CC. And that isn't the only thing they can do. They also have relatively easy access to 5+ FNP, a bunch of useful strats and support from other units.
Boyz at 9ppm would be great if they were worth the points. You don't want Hordes of boyz? Ok, give us Trukk boyz which keep their Kulture. Suddenly trukk boyz is a thing. Want shoota boyz to have a purpose? Make them BS4 and give them Assault 3 profiles. (still takes 8 boyz or 72pts to kill 18pts of Marine) but give them synergy with other units and ork buffs, like the speedwaaagh impacting them as well, or being near a mek gives them +1 shot or an extra pip of AP, something.
Our codex reads like some a**clown Marine player at GW wrote it. "Trukkboyz get +1 to hit while embarked on their trukk!, OMG that is broken good!" Oh yeah....its BS5 models with at best 3 shots at S4.....whooopedeefethingdo.
SemperMortis wrote: Our codex reads like some a**clown Marine player at GW wrote it. "Trukkboyz get +1 to hit while embarked on their trukk!, OMG that is broken good!" Oh yeah....its BS5 models with at best 3 shots at S4.....whooopedeefethingdo.
The other half of Trukkboyz is still very good, for something that has no point cost. I'd blame the underwhelming feel of the +1 to hit on them just completely dropping the ball when they tried to "buff" shootas.
Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote: We were using attack out of da sun, ork players just aren’t schemy gitz who tend to lawyer over the little tiny details like that. Options that are viable are also just sort of a rare occurrence, there’s things that can work but you realize something else does it but just better.
And not to mention the fact that...rarely if ever are that many Koptas alive past turn 1-2 because the enemy firepower is now so ridiculous that removing a 4 wound T5 model with ramshackle and a 4+ save isn't all that hard. Those aforementioned Voidweavers love matchups against Deffkoptas because they make their points back relatively quickly.
Grimskul wrote: I'm fine with them not having us spam models if that meant that they were actually worth taking for the points. As is, it feels arbitrary and wrong that our core units actively make our list worse than if we don't take them.
I agree, someone in here was comparing Boyz to Kroot....don't do that, Kroot are 1/3rd less points than a boy, go compare it instead to a tau firewarrior who is the same price and is putting out S5 Ap-1 shots at 36' range, usually hitting on 3s, and if you get to within 18' its 2 shots, and they have even more buffs which synergize really well with them.
For instance, did you know that in CC a Tau Firewarrior unit can shoot pistols and use a cheap strat to give their rifle a Pistol 2 profile. Think about what I just said, that means a Firewarrior unit...in CC, is putting out 3 S5AP-1 shots hitting on 4s, Put another way, they average 1.5 hits, 0.75wounds and 0.75 dead Boyz per Tau. A unit of 10 is killing 7.5 boyz in the shooting phase while in CC. And that isn't the only thing they can do. They also have relatively easy access to 5+ FNP, a bunch of useful strats and support from other units.
Boyz at 9ppm would be great if they were worth the points. You don't want Hordes of boyz? Ok, give us Trukk boyz which keep their Kulture. Suddenly trukk boyz is a thing. Want shoota boyz to have a purpose? Make them BS4 and give them Assault 3 profiles. (still takes 8 boyz or 72pts to kill 18pts of Marine) but give them synergy with other units and ork buffs, like the speedwaaagh impacting them as well, or being near a mek gives them +1 shot or an extra pip of AP, something.
Our codex reads like some a**clown Marine player at GW wrote it. "Trukkboyz get +1 to hit while embarked on their trukk!, OMG that is broken good!" Oh yeah....its BS5 models with at best 3 shots at S4.....whooopedeefethingdo.
I think that last sentence of yours is honestly what it probably is. Rules writers who have no experience or interest in playing Orks and assuming buffs that would be strong in another army will be strong in ours, thus overvaluing abilities that do not even begin to scratch the paint of actually making it an effective choice in the army. It's the same mentality where they overvalue the number of shots we get even though we have piss poor BS. The fact that basically half of our strats are useless or extremely situational is a reflection of this. That's why they hyped Dakka weapons up so much despite basically being worse rapid fire and we don't even have anything close to bolter discipline and Moar Dakka basically got nerfed to letting us have access to that baseline ability for TWO cp.
-1 to hit on 5+ cuts hit percentage in half
+1 to a 3+ save cuts unsaved wounds in half
Ignoring 1 AP on a 2+ save means you cannot get the benefit of doubling unsaved wounds with -1 AP
The hit and armor modifiers are a design flaw, provided that they are not deliberately designed and balanced around. It simply isn't equal, in the same way that full hit re-rolls provided far more benefit to low BS in prior editions.
With either kind of cover, power armor is fairly weather proof against AP -1.
I don't know if the game has received an appreciable benefit from GW releasing codexes and balance updates more frequently. If anything, it has increased the cash flow required for players to keep up with the game. They are continually making new problems with each release, and it does not appear to be getting any more balanced. It's accelerating power creep instead, while failing to address internal balance.
Was checking out a thread on the Comp reddit which consisted of people listing they most durable or difficult to remove units in the current meta game. Man that thread got me depressed.
All these factions with multi wound 10 man units with defensive modifiers and 3+/4++/5+++ and -1 damage is really depressing.
I have a hard time believing that there are career 40k meta chasers bouncing to a new faction every couple months and fueling the engineered power creep but that might just be the case.
I give a try to Attackmout of the Sun combo on TTS in FB speedmob and 2 squads of 5 koptas. And well, it is good, but nothing broken. I was tabled by new nids anyway
Basic problems are two
- it is super cp expensive, so you can do it 2 turns and than die
- you lost your positions on the table and the rest of your army suffers all the fire. With 2x5 koptas, it works. If you take 3x6 = 900p you will be doomed.
So it is an interesting welcome combo allowing you to score on the beginning but definitely not broken or something like this.
So normally I hate wishlisting as it's an exercise in futility but I did come up with a super easy solution for orks.
All orks get +1 strength on the charge.
Goffs would still get their additional+1 (so +2 strength) so they remain the close combat expertand the other clans get a much needed buff. Our current"good" units don't improve too much (MANZ and GHaz) but every other unit jumps up.
I think orks would fare better being different than imperial counterparts in weaponry. D3+1 power klawz and saws just giving a gak load of attacks would be cool, big choppas doing wound spill over, and all of it getting somew more ap. I wish we could also put a tank hammer on like anything.
I was just tabled T2 with my speed mob by the bloody Necrons.
It was pretty suspicious game. The guy played like a warmachine. When I took the Koptas from the table he killed them so, that he screened the whole table deny me the space to drop them. Bloody hell!
Then it appears he' s in spanish national team guy and 15th from Adepticon22.
Very nice guy. Very interesting game and very hard lesson.
And he plays with the bloody necrons that are even worse than orks! And definitely not so sexy.
Give us the equivalent of lightning claws! Proper thunder hammer equivs. Whatever.
It's hilarious that in spite of the CC buffs this army got the best lists are *still* shooting lists. By a wide margin.
We're a BS5 army, we should not be defined strictly by shooting.
That's why I was shocked by how anemic our CC weapon stats remained in the new book. Barring a few outliers, we're basically relegated to only D2 weaponry in terms of CC with little to no interesting mechanics tied to the weapons besides extra attacks or minuses to hit.
For a race obsessed with war, it's completely silly to see how little the ruleset demonstrates the variety of weapons Orks can make when it comes to krumping.
Frankly speaking, we should have the following:
Power Klaw - Sx2 AP:3 D:3 (with all the -1D rules everywhere, we need the Power Klaw to feel like it does something again)
Big Choppa S+2 AP:2 D:2 (Giving the extra AP makes it worth taking over a basic double choppa Nob)
KillSaw: S+3 AP:4 D3, each time the bearer fights you may make an additional attack with this weapon
Power Stabba: S: User AP:3 D:1, on a unmodded 6 to wound, inflict a mortal wound in addition to the regular damage of the weapon
'Uge Choppa: S:+3 AP:3 D:3
Weapons that we should have:
Bang Bang Hammas (Nobz only): S:+3 AP:2 D:2, if a model that uses this weapon attacks on the same turn it charged, double the damage inflicted by this weapon.
Kustom Choppas: S+1 AP:3 D:1 (weird we don't have a power weapon equivalent)
Burnas melee profile (bring it back), S: User AP:2 D:1, when making attacks against a unit with the VEHICLE keyword, add +1 to this model's wound rolls
These are just a few off the top of my head, I'm sure we could have more on top of this.
Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote: We do have a power weapon equivalent, the ever forgotten power stabba. Yoofs deze dayz.
I meant an actual PROPPA power weapon equivalent, not some half-assed weapon profile that GW decided to randomly give to us because they noticed it looked different on the sprue. It's an insult that you pay 5 points for something that just gives you AP-2 and that's it. That's worse than a power axe, and 100% worse than a power sword for the points. How is it considered by GW to be worth more than a big choppa?
Tomsug wrote: I was just tabled T2 with my speed mob by the bloody Necrons.
It was pretty suspicious game. The guy played like a warmachine. When I took the Koptas from the table he killed them so, that he screened the whole table deny me the space to drop them. Bloody hell!
Then it appears he' s in spanish national team guy and 15th from Adepticon22.
Very nice guy. Very interesting game and very hard lesson.
And he plays with the bloody necrons that are even worse than orks! And definitely not so sexy.
So stop moaning. Try harder! Be like him!
Oh yes, and he has no strong units and no strong weapons. He “just” had a clever plan how to move and score.
Tomsug wrote: I was just tabled T2 with my speed mob by the bloody Necrons.
It was pretty suspicious game. The guy played like a warmachine. When I took the Koptas from the table he killed them so, that he screened the whole table deny me the space to drop them. Bloody hell!
Then it appears he' s in spanish national team guy and 15th from Adepticon22.
Very nice guy. Very interesting game and very hard lesson.
And he plays with the bloody necrons that are even worse than orks! And definitely not so sexy.
So stop moaning. Try harder! Be like him!
Oh yes, and he has no strong units and no strong weapons. He “just” had a clever plan how to move and score.
QFT. It´s all "I need bigger gunz to win" and abysmal strategy analysis. The list that placed 5th with multiple mobz of Boyz is an excellent example of how a sound VP strategy beat the 8th Score Plan: Kill! mindset.
Do you have any info of what secondaries he picked Tomsug? We local Ork players at my club is trying to make it fit together but it´s murky to see what he takes beyond Stranglehold and Good Bitz.
Thought that first but Tide clashes with Stranglehold which seems like a sure bet too right? Yea should try to reach someone in his vicinity and find out
Scactha wrote: Thought that first but Tide clashes with Stranglehold which seems like a sure bet too right? Yea should try to reach someone in his vicinity and find out
Talking purely out of 9th edition, I highly doubt we get better boyz with different rules added as that happens rarely. Whats most likely to happen are point reductions, and i dont see GW cutting Boyz any slacks there either. so i really have no hope for boyz atm.
On a different note since i dont really use Squighog boyz that often; Goffs dont increase the jaw attacks strength do they? As they are a fixed value?
And the consensus on straight out of da sun" is that we can use it in the same turn we appeared? So arrive turn 2, shoot, do what ever, and fly out?
Fairly confident that yes the goff trait applies. It's a weapon profile of the model that makes S to 6, nothing saying otherwise. Kulture specifies that the +1S is targeted at the model when it makes an attack.
Talking purely out of 9th edition, I highly doubt we get better boyz with different rules added as that happens rarely. Whats most likely to happen are point reductions, and i dont see GW cutting Boyz any slacks there either. so i really have no hope for boyz atm.
On a different note since i dont really use Squighog boyz that often; Goffs dont increase the jaw attacks strength do they? As they are a fixed value?
And the consensus on straight out of da sun" is that we can use it in the same turn we appeared? So arrive turn 2, shoot, do what ever, and fly out?
Fairly confident that yes the goff trait applies. It's a weapon profile of the model that makes S to 6, nothing saying otherwise. Kulture specifies that the +1S is targeted at the model when it makes an attack.
No-they're fixed strength.
Same reason a Poxbringer won't buff the Palanquin of Epidemius or the entourage of a GUO.
Talking purely out of 9th edition, I highly doubt we get better boyz with different rules added as that happens rarely. Whats most likely to happen are point reductions, and i dont see GW cutting Boyz any slacks there either. so i really have no hope for boyz atm.
On a different note since i dont really use Squighog boyz that often; Goffs dont increase the jaw attacks strength do they? As they are a fixed value?
And the consensus on straight out of da sun" is that we can use it in the same turn we appeared? So arrive turn 2, shoot, do what ever, and fly out?
Fairly confident that yes the goff trait applies. It's a weapon profile of the model that makes S to 6, nothing saying otherwise. Kulture specifies that the +1S is targeted at the model when it makes an attack.
No-they're fixed strength.
Same reason a Poxbringer won't buff the Palanquin of Epidemius or the entourage of a GUO.
Ok, can you link the ruling your basing of, I am going straight by the core book rule as RAW, so allow me if I have some doubts? Is this some hidden rule deep in the core again?
Characteristics of ‘-’ can never be modified. If a model
has a Strength or Leadership characteristic of ‘-’ and that
characteristic is required to resolve a rule, then substitute the
model’s Toughness characteristic for that characteristic for
the purposes of resolving that rule (note that the substituted
characteristic still cannot be modified).
All characteristic modifiers are cumulative.
Apply modifiers in the following order: division,
multiplication, addition, then subtraction.
Round fractions up after applying all modifiers.
S, T, A and Ld can never be modified below 1.
Random Move characteristics determined for whole unit
each time it moves.
Other random characteristics determined individually
when characteristic required.
Characteristic of ‘-’ can never be modified.
Example: A Space Marine Sergeant (Strength characteristic 4)
is making an attack with a power fist (Strength characteristic
x2) while under the effects of a psychic power that increases his
Strength characteristic by 1. The two modifiers (x2 and +1) are
cumulative and applied concurrently. The attack is therefore
resolved at Strength 9 ([4x2]+1=9).
Talking purely out of 9th edition, I highly doubt we get better boyz with different rules added as that happens rarely. Whats most likely to happen are point reductions, and i dont see GW cutting Boyz any slacks there either. so i really have no hope for boyz atm.
On a different note since i dont really use Squighog boyz that often; Goffs dont increase the jaw attacks strength do they? As they are a fixed value?
And the consensus on straight out of da sun" is that we can use it in the same turn we appeared? So arrive turn 2, shoot, do what ever, and fly out?
Fairly confident that yes the goff trait applies. It's a weapon profile of the model that makes S to 6, nothing saying otherwise. Kulture specifies that the +1S is targeted at the model when it makes an attack.
No-they're fixed strength.
Same reason a Poxbringer won't buff the Palanquin of Epidemius or the entourage of a GUO.
I would need to know the ruling your basing of, I am going straight by the core book rule as RAW, so allow me if I have some doubts? Is this some hidden rule deep in the core again?
Characteristics of ‘-’ can never be modified. If a model
has a Strength or Leadership characteristic of ‘-’ and that
characteristic is required to resolve a rule, then substitute the
model’s Toughness characteristic for that characteristic for
the purposes of resolving that rule (note that the substituted
characteristic still cannot be modified).
All characteristic modifiers are cumulative.
Apply modifiers in the following order: division,
multiplication, addition, then subtraction.
Round fractions up after applying all modifiers.
S, T, A and Ld can never be modified below 1.
Random Move characteristics determined for whole unit
each time it moves.
Other random characteristics determined individually
when characteristic required.
Characteristic of ‘-’ can never be modified.
Example: A Space Marine Sergeant (Strength characteristic 4)
is making an attack with a power fist (Strength characteristic
x2) while under the effects of a psychic power that increases his
Strength characteristic by 1. The two modifiers (x2 and +1) are
cumulative and applied concurrently. The attack is therefore
resolved at Strength 9 ([4x2]+1=9).
The buff affects the strength of the model.
Not the weapon.
The weapon's strength is entirely independent of the model's strength value.
Look at the wording of Khorne Daemon's Unstoppable Ferocity for the difference.
If this unit makes a charge move, is charged, or performs a Heroic Intervention, then until the end of the turn add 1 to the Attacks characteristic of all its models and add 1 to the Strength characteristic of all the melee weapons the unit is armed with.
Forceride wrote: You might be right, but then again, when it mentions model i would think it mentions all in it's entirety?
I would really prefer a rule or a clarification on that then since that is confusing at least to me.
There is a lot of these small interactions everywhere, like warboss and attack squig. What does model refer to then? Aren't weapons part of the model?
Anyway, it's late this side of the globe and i can't think on this at the moment.
When a model gets its Strength improved, it refers to the characteristic on the datasheet.
For most melee weapons, this will then increase the Strength you swing at. But if the weapon has a fixed Strength, it completely ignores the characteristic on the datasheet.
I don't agree with that ruling in this case. For Goffs it is worded thusly:
Each time a model with this kultur makes a melee attack, if that model’s unit made a charge move or performed a Heroic Intervention this turn, add 1 to the Strength characteristic of that attack.
The Strength characteristic of the melee attack is what is being modified, not the model's Strength characteristic. As you point out, the Strength characteristic is fixed, but in this case it is still eligible to be increased by the Goff Kultur.
SemperMortis wrote: Our codex reads like some a**clown Marine player at GW wrote it. "Trukkboyz get +1 to hit while embarked on their trukk!, OMG that is broken good!" Oh yeah....its BS5 models with at best 3 shots at S4.....whooopedeefethingdo.
The other half of Trukkboyz is still very good, for something that has no point cost. I'd blame the underwhelming feel of the +1 to hit on them just completely dropping the ball when they tried to "buff" shootas.
The other half of Trukkboyz, IE Choppa boyz...are ok, they are not "Very good". They are effectively boyz without kulture but who can move blisteringly fast to tag units or objectives. Trukkboyz is absolutely fine how they are currently, but I don't see why in the current meta they shouldn't be allowed to keep their kulture as a specialist mob. The other half, the shooting buff...there isn't any useful application of this rule. I've seen multiple people on here, facebook and other places attempting to make a shooting buff out of this, giving the Banner nob the trukkboyz keyword and then filling the trukk with lootas or SAG big mekz etc. The problem is that you can't move the trukk, it becomes overly expensive (easy target) and at the end of the day...it does literally what Freeboota kulture already did so there isn't much point.
Most of our specialist mobz, upgrades and vehicle upgrades read like a Marine player constructed them for his faction but didn't want Orkz to have that good of things and then nerfed the prices a bit to make it worse...problem being that on noticeably crappier vehicles those upgrades become functionally useless.
Scactha wrote: QFT. It´s all "I need bigger gunz to win" and abysmal strategy analysis. The list that placed 5th with multiple mobz of Boyz is an excellent example of how a sound VP strategy beat the 8th Score Plan: Kill! mindset.
Do you have any info of what secondaries he picked Tomsug? We local Ork players at my club is trying to make it fit together but it´s murky to see what he takes beyond Stranglehold and Good Bitz.
He finished 5th out of like 20 something players in a LOCAL tournament. Want me to post you my FLGS tournament wins and show that as an example of how orkz can still be competitive?
There is a world of difference between a Local tournament and a GT, even the smallest 40 player GTs are significantly more cut throat then a 20 odd player local event. Player skill is significantly higher at the higher tables and armies are built almost across the board as meta lists.
So it isn't that people are complaining instead of "getting gud" its because we do not have the tools to compete against the top tiers of the meta right now, and after AoC...we likely don't have the tools to compete against the middle meta either.
Gotta agree with Semper here, not to say you can't win with Orks right now but it's definitely more of an uphill battle than the way some of you are describing it like saying "Just think outside the box guys! You aren't using your finkin kaps hard enough!". There are army archetypes for a reason, particularly at the higher tables, and given that we've always relied on skew lists and that our skew armies are being largely hard countered by what is popular in the meta at the moment, there's only so much you can do given that we have limited tools to work with.
There is a reason AoW and goonhammer say orks are bottom b or c tier and one of the worst 9th Ed codex. But to be fair they also
recommended our food units be nerfed into the ground.
Regarding specialist mobs they don’t work as designed there is literally no benefit to taking 90% of them and the only place it’s taken competitively now is in the speed mob because it doesn’t loose the ability. I rather just see specialist mob abilities be baked into each detachment.
Had my first game with the "new" ork codex (I don't get to game as much these days...). Orks won, but sadly that was because my opponent used Orks!
I ran an old fashioned army, which was probably the issue. Bad moons shoota boys with rokkits & kombi rokkits in 2 battlewagons and a truk, lootas in a trukk with a SAG, and a wazbom blastajet.
Next time I'm going to run a speedwaaagh!, because bad moons seems to combine with the speedwaaagh and the vehicle/biker units very well - better heavy & dakka weapons, and better AP when firing them, and then more better AP when firing them from the speedwaagh, plus more shots. I'm trying to pick out some buggies to build, what works well? I used to play deffskulls but I feel like a change this edition, and bad moons piqued my interest for their shooting prowess.
Also, how do trukkboys work? I noticed that Trukks can transport >clan< infantry, and so would be bad moons, and trukkboys replace their >clan< with >trukkboys<, so it looks, unless I've missed something, like trukkboys can't actually ride in their trukk?
Grimskul wrote: Gotta agree with Semper here, not to say you can't win with Orks right now but it's definitely more of an uphill battle than the way some of you are describing it like saying "Just think outside the box guys! You aren't using your finkin kaps hard enough!". There are army archetypes for a reason, particularly at the higher tables, and given that we've always relied on skew lists and that our skew armies are being largely hard countered by what is popular in the meta at the moment, there's only so much you can do given that we have limited tools to work with.
I did not mean ”Git Gud”. That’s a non argument. Orks are not in s good place. Agree.
What I don’t agree with is the reflexive denial that innovative strategy still has space left. There’s this opinion that discussion is only worth it if is about stats - unit x is bad because of y. With the unspoken addendum that if it doesn’t kill stuff or survive on the frontline it’s worthless.
I find this weird at the time as people eg recognize that Drukhari won alot due to manouverability and a good Secondary. That’s innovative strategy.
Was this guys 5th place worth noticing? I don’t know. But the immediate brush off by referring to our bad stats is self defeating. That’s not the issue.
I read the results from big GTs after short discussion with the guys from Prague who tooks the 1,2 and 4th place on Alpin Cup.
And I see one think we definitely needs more, much more than better AP.
We need a better secondaries. We struggle to score high. We can have a lot of wins but we hardly score 100-90.
There was a theory I myself supported - ork list is more about deny scoring than actualy scoring.
But this is a nonsence. If you cannnot score, you cannot place well in top competitive level. You cannot win the tourney without the score like 100/100/97/100/92 or something.
Was this guys 5th place worth noticing? I don’t know. But the immediate brush off by referring to our bad stats is self defeating. That’s not the issue.
He scored high. That is interesting. Was it in top competitive enviroment? Obviously not. Does it mean, this model cannot be scored high in top comp envy? Who knows?
I tell my subcontractors “I would like to ask those who say it cannot be done to do not disturbe those, who already do it. “
If someone wants to have an easy victories, he have to switch the army regularly. My guess is it ´ s 1:5 proportion between the time you have a strong rules and you can defeat your opponents because you have better codex and the rest, when your codex is gak and you have to work harder. We are still in the “work harder” area which is fine. In 12-18 months we come to “ no chance area” where we was like 3-4 years ago on the end of 8th before the new “old” codex.
Tomsug wrote: I read the results from big GTs after short discussion with the guys from Prague who tooks the 1,2 and 4th place on Alpin Cup.
And I see one think we definitely needs more, much more than better AP.
We need a better secondaries. We struggle to score high. We can have a lot of wins but we hardly score 100-90.
There was a theory I myself supported - ork list is more about deny scoring than actualy scoring.
But this is a nonsence. If you cannnot score, you cannot place well in top competitive level. You cannot win the tourney without the score like 100/100/97/100/92 or something.
Of the same opinion, but still believe we have some decent scoring options. Kommandos and warbikes fit this, although considering the meta i would be ok for price discounts on these.
There are some buggies i haven seen play and their very good platforms too, they don't need to be killy just hard shift and a deterrent.
A lot of people gives a lot of focus to koptas but no one spoted the new sckorcha meta pop out mainly because freeboota was so dominant.
The fliers are still atracting fire and a 120 dakkahet is cheap if it takes heat from other stuff.
Squighog boys might be glass cannons but their still decent for their price, so yeah there is room. I just wish i could try some of the ideas.
Grimskul wrote: Gotta agree with Semper here, not to say you can't win with Orks right now but it's definitely more of an uphill battle than the way some of you are describing it like saying "Just think outside the box guys! You aren't using your finkin kaps hard enough!". There are army archetypes for a reason, particularly at the higher tables, and given that we've always relied on skew lists and that our skew armies are being largely hard countered by what is popular in the meta at the moment, there's only so much you can do given that we have limited tools to work with.
I did not mean ”Git Gud”. That’s a non argument. Orks are not in s good place. Agree.
What I don’t agree with is the reflexive denial that innovative strategy still has space left. There’s this opinion that discussion is only worth it if is about stats - unit x is bad because of y. With the unspoken addendum that if it doesn’t kill stuff or survive on the frontline it’s worthless.
I find this weird at the time as people eg recognize that Drukhari won alot due to manouverability and a good Secondary. That’s innovative strategy.
Was this guys 5th place worth noticing? I don’t know. But the immediate brush off by referring to our bad stats is self defeating. That’s not the issue.
Correct, but you just pointed out why Orkz aren't in a good place. We don't have any good secondaries. Our faction specific ones are rather anemic, we lack the pure fire power/CC ability to use kill secondaries and our toughest units tend to melt worryingly fast. So we are left with a scenario where we don't have the ability to score secondaries and we struggle for primaries past turn 2.
I think we can still surprise a few people with weird/skew lists but against the top meta lists...we don't stand much of a chance. My Alphork strike list was a gimmick list built on the concept of pinning my opponent into his deployment zone. It no longer works because Tau, Custards, Nidz, Eldar, Harlies put out so much damage against us that most of the list is dead turn 3.
In the tournament meta, I am going to be switching it up a bit and running a pure Deathskullz list which will focus exclusively on securing objectives and performing secondaries. I'm going to be spamming my kommandos, Stormboyz, Meganobz and believe it or not, boyz. I have little to no intention of killing enemy units unless I have to and will instead focus on mismatch's where my obsec troops can hold to score primaries at least to turn 3 before being wiped out.
To put it bluntly, we are not capable of going toe to toe with the meta lists and will have to resort to playing exclusively to Victory points and hoping we can outscore our opponents before we are tabled.
Hey everyone, I'd like some ideas and opinions on a bad moons speedwaaagh!
seems like bad moons and the speedwaaagh marry up well, focussing on the buggies which have dakka weapons for extra range and extra AP on a 6 (plus extra AP on a speedwaaagh), thinking the boomdakka snazzwagon looks good, or the Kustom Boosta Blasta for the extra strength on the gun. I'd also considered the rukatrukk squigbuggy, but that only gains the AP benefits and not the range.
I have loads of bikes (looking forward to using 9 bikes on a speedwaaagh in dakka range for 108 shots at S5 AP-1!), I need to rebuild my wartrike as it was originally made as a warboss on a bike, and I'm thinking a dakkajet and wazbomm blastajet will be a good bit of support for the army. Deffkoptas can snag objectives (though they aren't single models any more), and perhaps some nobs on smasha squigs for the same purpose, and Mek guns i nthe background.
Am I right that grots seem to benefit from clan rules now, or did I miss something? All I can see is that ">Clan< units get these benefits". I also noted that flash gitz get the clan now, so does that mean bad moon flashgitz are a viable option, or again have I missed something?
A little read if anyone wants to read it, but i went to a local tournament with 20 players where i ranked 8th. It was a single day tournament so only 3 battles. I had 2 wins and 1 loss. I lost my first battle to Salemanders, but i won against blood angels, and again against an odd Eldar list with lots of wraith constructs. He lost all his battles so i guess it wasnt a competitive list. But one thing that was apparent between the two battles i won, i didnt win by a lot. It was not a landslide victory at all in any of the cases. The winner was Tyranids (what a fething surprise).
Anyway i went with Goffs and i brought 2 blitza bommers against the armor of contempt lists i would inevitably play against (turns out 12 out of the lists were armor of contempt lists)
Blitza-bommer [8 PL, 150pts]: Big Shoota, 2x Boom Bomb, 2x Supa Shoota
++ Total: [110 PL, 8CP, 2,000pts] ++
Army play through below which ill try and keep short. Game 1, loss
Spoiler:
Salemanders. I cant remember what secondaries i picked but i know i picked "to the last" on my two blitzas and ghaz. I was almost wiped by turn 3 so i couldnt keep my things alive except for a single blitza. but i made a big blunder and had ghaz and my warboss on warbike basically trapped by accident near terrain. So that kind of sucked. He had no vehicles so my rockets were kind of ineffective while shooting at infantry in cover. My blitza bommers did a decent amount of mortal wounds but sadly some of them got ressurrected and others healed. So thats that. In the end, many of my attacks against these salemanders completely wiffed and did jack all damage. So it was a sort of disappointing battle where i made a big mistake, but even then my units did almost no damage.
Game 2, win
Spoiler:
Blood Angels. I decided to go for "to the last" again with my blitzas and ghaz being the survivors. He had turn 1, and i popped my KFF which helped protecting my blitzas so that only 1 plane died (next to stormboyz and other things). The other plane was left with 5 wounds. From there on i just flew over him, bombed him and flew out the stage and stayed off till turn 5 where i could safely return. A funny thing happened though, his librarian made a peril for 1 damage, and my plane flew over and did 3 mortal wounds to him, killing him afterwards. absolute gold moment.
Anyway, i went for a round 1 waaagh so ghaz absolutely went to town as he hadnt damaged ghaz by this time. He ran in to the first line of intercessors (i think they are called. their troop choice guys) and my warboss on bike killed a tank with a dozerblade in the front that shoots with str 10 i believe. my stormboyz and kommandos went in, tied up things and did reasonable damage this time around. Later ghaz ripped apart 6 Terminators out of 10 so there was only 1 left (kopta rokkits killed 1, kommandos 1, and bombs 1) and he ran away to morale. That turned the game around from being what looked a bit dicy to a game i could win because ghaz had free reign. Sadly i had few models left also so i kind of had to sit and tank some shots while holding objectives. My backline was held by 10 grots, by turn 5 i had a single grot left holding my objective. That guy definitely deserved to be promoted.
Game 3, win
Spoiler:
Eldar Wraith construct army with a wraith knight. I knew he had eldritch storm and i know it can be an absolute destroyer to my army, so i said zog it, ill deepstrike all my stormboyz and deffkoptas. I deployed ghaz extra aggressive up by the line, with the warboss on warbike close behind after. We played one of the stages where theres only 18 inches between us, so it could pay off to get a turn 1 charge.
I ended up getting turn 1, so my bomber planes flew over, bombed and out. Ghaz called a waaagh and i decided to go balls to the walls with almost no models on the board, but him, biker boss and 20 kommandos made it in. Both the warboss on bike and ghaz charged the wraith Knight and once again, did jack all damage. I did a total of 13 damage to him because he could auto save and i whiffed my attacks. So that was disheartening. My kommandos attacked one of the large wraith lords i think they are called but failed to kill it, and my other kommandos removed a good potion of the tiny constructs with axes. I think i killed 7 out of 10 or something so that was okay.
By his turn 1, both my warboss on bike and ghaz had died, but the rest of my army came in close after. So now he had to deal with my stormboyz and deffkoptas coming in and that turned things around again. Both blitza bommers came back turn 2, landed and didnt move. flew over turn 3 again and bombed, and stayed on the battlefield to shoot afterwards.
It was a chaotic battle but i werent eldritch stormed at least. And it was very underwhelming how little damage i did to the wraith knight, but thats what happens. especially when you can just auto pass 2 saves apparently. The eldar mortal wounds are pretty brutal however. Basically all his models were toughness 6 and up (barring the 2 characters and a unit of warlocks) so i whittled his army down with rokkits and a flurry of smaller attacks which eventually did work. This was a very fun match.
Over all the armor of contemt changes definitely be felt. They are very mean. I mean i have 2 victories but none of them were landslide victories, i won with maybe 20 point difference max. Scoring secondaries is difficult with my army and the lack of obsec also hurt during the last mission i played versus eldar. Because one could move away from the objective if you held it with an Obsec unit, and even grots not being Obsec anymore is also really stupid. I took fly boyz on both planes to add survivability, but ill change one of those to "orrible gitz" in the future for my grots.
I should have won a lot harder versus eldar but ghaz and boss on bike with BBK and killa klaw just.. whiffed. so his wraith knight ran around and caused havoc all game. I never got it killed as i focused on everything else.
The blitza bommers were both good and bad. It sucks that one can just ressurect models ive killed with my bombs from apothecaries, but they did do really well in terms of "to the last". A secondary ive otherwise never really played. Because i dont need to keep on the board to do my damage as i have bombs. So you just fly over and bomb round 1 and fly out, come back round 2 in your backline, fly over round 3 and bomb and fly out and stay out till turn 5 after which you land somewhere hopefully safe.
But i dont know if this is a good or a bad army. all in all about the blitza bommers i feel like what they brought to the table was attack magnets that forces the enemy to come close because they WANT to kill them. and with a 5++ from the KFF and -1 to hit it takes a decent amount of dakka to down them by turn 1 which they more or less have to do. The firepower drawn to those is also firepower not drawn to my kommandos and stormboyz. Ill have to play some more with them. But i did end up with an 8th out of 20 so ill take it. Worth nothing of course if you KNOW the blitzas will die to enemy fire by turn 1, dont go for "to the last" lol
In the end, orks feel like they have really been hit. Maybe mega nobz really is what we need. I couldnt throw down several kill rigs and stormboyz and kommandos is what i have a decent amount of. I only have 8 mega nobz sadly.
I think that speed waaaghs still work, i just havent painted my speedwaaagh yet. But Ghaz feels even more important than the beastboss on squig now due to his high AP and damage. I really like ghaz these days with all the changes. He still feels overpriced though.
some bloke wrote: Hey everyone, I'd like some ideas and opinions on a bad moons speedwaaagh!
seems like bad moons and the speedwaaagh marry up well, focussing on the buggies which have dakka weapons for extra range and extra AP on a 6 (plus extra AP on a speedwaaagh), thinking the boomdakka snazzwagon looks good, or the Kustom Boosta Blasta for the extra strength on the gun. I'd also considered the rukatrukk squigbuggy, but that only gains the AP benefits and not the range.
I have loads of bikes (looking forward to using 9 bikes on a speedwaaagh in dakka range for 108 shots at S5 AP-1!), I need to rebuild my wartrike as it was originally made as a warboss on a bike, and I'm thinking a dakkajet and wazbomm blastajet will be a good bit of support for the army. Deffkoptas can snag objectives (though they aren't single models any more), and perhaps some nobs on smasha squigs for the same purpose, and Mek guns i nthe background.
Am I right that grots seem to benefit from clan rules now, or did I miss something? All I can see is that ">Clan< units get these benefits". I also noted that flash gitz get the clan now, so does that mean bad moon flashgitz are a viable option, or again have I missed something?
Grots don't benefit from klans. It specifically says gretchin units do not in the klan rules.
Units you want for pretty much any speedwaaaagh builds are 2 wazboms (seriously don't bother with the other planes), scrapjets, deffkoptas, and then whatever other buggies you want.
With regards to innovating or adapting orks...I just don't see what is left to pivot to. The army has been carried by datasheets since release, never because of its stratagems or command phase buffs etc. I've been trying a skew list since the balance update bringing 80+ snagga boyz but I just don't think hordes work in 9th as:
1. The army is brutally slow 2. The army has very low damage output 3. The army have very poor survivability and is vulnerable to morale 4. There are few synergies for hordes to take advantage of (strats, command phase buffs)
In short I don't think the DS run around and passively score points playstyle will work, not against good players and good lists anyways. The damage in the game has gotten so high that you can't afford to not also do a high amount of damage. Every turn you're not killing what your opponent presents to you, you are losing that much faster.
I think our best lists remain what they have been: Goff melee orks or speed mob, but they have both gotten undeniably worse post dataslate.
some bloke wrote: Had my first game with the "new" ork codex (I don't get to game as much these days...). Orks won, but sadly that was because my opponent used Orks!
I ran an old fashioned army, which was probably the issue. Bad moons shoota boys with rokkits & kombi rokkits in 2 battlewagons and a truk, lootas in a trukk with a SAG, and a wazbom blastajet.
Next time I'm going to run a speedwaaagh!, because bad moons seems to combine with the speedwaaagh and the vehicle/biker units very well - better heavy & dakka weapons, and better AP when firing them, and then more better AP when firing them from the speedwaagh, plus more shots. I'm trying to pick out some buggies to build, what works well? I used to play deffskulls but I feel like a change this edition, and bad moons piqued my interest for their shooting prowess.
Also, how do trukkboys work? I noticed that Trukks can transport >clan< infantry, and so would be bad moons, and trukkboys replace their >clan< with >trukkboys<, so it looks, unless I've missed something, like trukkboys can't actually ride in their trukk?
if you meant better AP for embarked infantry then no they dont get the extra AP.
gungo wrote: There is a reason AoW and goonhammer say orks are bottom b or c tier and one of the worst 9th Ed codex. But to be fair they also
recommended our food units be nerfed into the ground.
Regarding specialist mobs they don’t work as designed there is literally no benefit to taking 90% of them and the only place it’s taken competitively now is in the speed mob because it doesn’t loose the ability. I rather just see specialist mob abilities be baked into each detachment.
Keep in mind the caveat of their tier list is "The best player possible playing the best possible list."
So your mileage might vary greatly at the mid or bottom tables. But I think at the top of competitive play, the reasons AoW rank Orks so low is just obvious to Ork players -- weak strats, middling to weak psychic tree, mediocre durability, poor secondaries, lack of killing power.
In beerhammer the book is probably fine? Although to be honest it's painfully boring. There isn't much to the book other than "Spam X unit", because we lack synergy.
The crying shame about it is the Ork kits are really great. Army is a hobbyist's dream, but it doesn't seem to live up to the hype on the table.
SemperMortis wrote: To put it bluntly, we are not capable of going toe to toe with the meta lists and will have to resort to playing exclusively to Victory points and hoping we can outscore our opponents before we are tabled.
Couldn´t agree more. Hence that´s the current space to explore. How do we raise our scoring options if we cannot beat them down? That´s why I found a strategy going multiple 97 interesting.
gungo wrote: There is a reason AoW and goonhammer say orks are bottom b or c tier and one of the worst 9th Ed codex. But to be fair they also
recommended our food units be nerfed into the ground.
Regarding specialist mobs they don’t work as designed there is literally no benefit to taking 90% of them and the only place it’s taken competitively now is in the speed mob because it doesn’t loose the ability. I rather just see specialist mob abilities be baked into each detachment.
Keep in mind the caveat of their tier list is "The best player possible playing the best possible list."
So your mileage might vary greatly at the mid or bottom tables. But I think at the top of competitive play, the reasons AoW rank Orks so low is just obvious to Ork players -- weak strats, middling to weak psychic tree, mediocre durability, poor secondaries, lack of killing power.
In beerhammer the book is probably fine? Although to be honest it's painfully boring. There isn't much to the book other than "Spam X unit", because we lack synergy.
The crying shame about it is the Ork kits are really great. Army is a hobbyist's dream, but it doesn't seem to live up to the hype on the table.
Not quite best player in each faction but good competitive players playing competitive lists. Siegler even said if he ranked admech based on how well he played it they would be near top of B. It’s about the best list potential not overall codex quality or garage hammer.
tulun wrote: 36% win rate for Orks this weekend! The tank is in folks. Let's do this!
Even those weedy 'umies had higher with 41% :( (Imperial Guard)
I was just on my way to post this. Big oof on our part. We really need something to dig us out of this hole. Without a big change getting us some of our mojo back, we're hoping for a sudden and dramatic meta shift that lets us double down on skewing.
Could you imagine if GW gave us extra AP in melee on the charge during a Waaagh?
Huh. Other codecs have the “no names characters” restriction, but Orks do not.
Okay.
To be fair, most Ork characters are not worth taking compared to generic choices that you can tailor towards certain WL traits, and you wouldn't usually bother wasting Big Boss on them since they're tied to suboptimal WL traits.
John Forsyth on FB did a deep dig in what kind of the list has what results from this week comp meta.
The sheet below is the result. And my question is - is the over-all low win rate the cause or the result of very low share of Speed Mob armies there?
Could be interpreted also the way, the competitive players with tons of buggies switched to Tyranids or something. And the rest are the pure fans with infantry they already had before buggy meta…
And Marschal Petersson write a report about his mighty Blood Axe victories. Because as I understand. That is not the first one:
For our fellow warbosses taking to tournament tables, I just finished 3rd at a six round tournament GT, so here is a bit on how things went!
Round one: Aeldari (wraith heavy) W
Two: nurgle (morty, great unclean one, be’lakor with daemon engines and demon troops) W
Three: Tyranids (kraken, he ended up winning the event undefeated) L
Four: Aeldari (shuriken based, tons of bodies and ranged death) W
Five: Tyranids (lots of warriors, and meta stuff you may expect) W
Six: Custodes (vehicle heavy emperors chosen) W
Most importantly the tournament scene continues to impress me with how enjoyable it is and how great all of my opponents were. It was super fun and I greatly enjoyed the time with everyone. (Even While watching my Orks being eaten by Matt Evans Tyranids lol)
The idea of the army was flexibility with a lean towards mortal wounds. With the exception of troops choices and snikrot every single model handed out mortal wounds. Here are thoughts:
With blood axes Orks actually work. Our over costed strats are more palatable when you have 19 command points over the course of the battle to use. They give great strats to boost combat ability, perform actions, interrupt combat for free, and make the army much more strategic. Not to mention snikrot basically gives you a second warboss in the detatchment.
I am convinced squig bombs are the best aspect of the entire ork codex. When taken en mass you are able to efficiently assassinate any character or big threat. Don’t like that apothecary? Bomb him. Two wound warlock giving you headaches? Squigs don’t care about look out sir. Added in with the splash mortals from squiggly curse, frazzle, “burn em all”, and burna bombs, any character with less than 10 wounds is easily killed.
Kommandos are spectacular and are the backbone of an ork army that boys wished they were. They do everything great, and 12 points per model is still a deal since they don’t need a transport to operate.
Tankbustas. By far the most underrated unit in the codex. For just 95 points you get 4D3+D6 mortal wounds of output. (2D3+6) if they don’t charge a vehicle. The rokkits are just for decoration but are funny if they ever hit. Especially in the current meta these guys wreak face.
Burna bomber: cheap mortals and a nuisance unit, it’s good but I think I’ll swap it out going forward. Needs just a bit more of a push to make its points back.
Battlewagon: they are neat, keep ‘em cheap with a deff rolla and watch your Orks not be shot directly for a turn.
Tomsug wrote: And Marschal Petersson write a report about his mighty Blood Axe victories. Because as I understand. That is not the first one: For our fellow warbosses taking to tournament tables, I just finished 3rd at a six round tournament GT, so here is a bit on how things went! Round one: Aeldari (wraith heavy) W Two: nurgle (morty, great unclean one, be’lakor with daemon engines and demon troops) W Three: Tyranids (kraken, he ended up winning the event undefeated) L Four: Aeldari (shuriken based, tons of bodies and ranged death) W Five: Tyranids (lots of warriors, and meta stuff you may expect) W Six: Custodes (vehicle heavy emperors chosen) W
Most importantly the tournament scene continues to impress me with how enjoyable it is and how great all of my opponents were. It was super fun and I greatly enjoyed the time with everyone. (Even While watching my Orks being eaten by Matt Evans Tyranids lol)
The idea of the army was flexibility with a lean towards mortal wounds. With the exception of troops choices and snikrot every single model handed out mortal wounds. Here are thoughts:
With blood axes Orks actually work. Our over costed strats are more palatable when you have 19 command points over the course of the battle to use. They give great strats to boost combat ability, perform actions, interrupt combat for free, and make the army much more strategic. Not to mention snikrot basically gives you a second warboss in the detatchment.
I am convinced squig bombs are the best aspect of the entire ork codex. When taken en mass you are able to efficiently assassinate any character or big threat. Don’t like that apothecary? Bomb him. Two wound warlock giving you headaches? Squigs don’t care about look out sir. Added in with the splash mortals from squiggly curse, frazzle, “burn em all”, and burna bombs, any character with less than 10 wounds is easily killed.
Kommandos are spectacular and are the backbone of an ork army that boys wished they were. They do everything great, and 12 points per model is still a deal since they don’t need a transport to operate.
Tankbustas. By far the most underrated unit in the codex. For just 95 points you get 4D3+D6 mortal wounds of output. (2D3+6) if they don’t charge a vehicle. The rokkits are just for decoration but are funny if they ever hit. Especially in the current meta these guys wreak face.
Burna bomber: cheap mortals and a nuisance unit, it’s good but I think I’ll swap it out going forward. Needs just a bit more of a push to make its points back.
Battlewagon: they are neat, keep ‘em cheap with a deff rolla and watch your Orks not be shot directly for a turn.
I’d love to hear your thoughts, happy krumping!
Interesting list. Reminds me of my own list where i ran 2 blitza bommers. While mine was a Goff list with ghaz, i definitely figured blitza bommers would make a semi comeback with the current meta and changes. I had 2 wons and 1 loss out of my local tournament with 3 battles total.
Mortal wounds really is king now. Maybe I should look at a blood axes army myself.
Although he can never use the stratagem to allow kommandos to fight before the enemy with most WTC terrain. It states you have to be wholly within the terrain piece, and most WTC terrain is made up by thin walls with usually no floor level. So your kommandos would in many GT cases, never be able to use this stratagem, as your base would merely touch the wall, not be wholly within.
"For just 95 points you get 4D3+D6 mortal wounds of output. (2D3+6) if they don’t charge a vehicle"
Is this a typo? bustas get 2 squigs each getting D3D +1D6 for the tank hammer. Where is the other 2D3 coming from? Just wondering if Im missing something
Dr.Duck wrote: "For just 95 points you get 4D3+D6 mortal wounds of output. (2D3+6) if they don’t charge a vehicle"
Is this a typo? bustas get 2 squigs each getting D3D +1D6 for the tank hammer. Where is the other 2D3 coming from? Just wondering if Im missing something
Also are you able to big boss more than once?
I think he might be refering to the tankbusta bomb strat? thats 2D3 MW to a vehicle.
But that stratagem, contrary to what many might think, isnt native to only tankbustas despite called "Tankbusta bomb". Boyz and Kommandos can also do this as they share the keyword.
Also yes you can "Big Boss" Twice, as well as you can pay for 2 relics.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jidmah wrote: To live to see the day that someone wins with bombsquig spam
So this means bomb squigs will go up to 15 points with the next "balance" patch?
Im expecting many nerfs yes. We cant have orks get within top 5! im expecting point increases to everything we have that can cause mortal wounds. be it blitza bommers or wurrboyz. GW needs to deal with this green menace!
Jidmah wrote: To live to see the day that someone wins with bombsquig spam
So this means bomb squigs will go up to 15 points with the next "balance" patch?
They'll be restricted to max one per army in the next balance dataslate
One per time zone, anyone that submits a list with bomb Squigs is hunted down by GW's Arbites and charged with heresy
:EDIT:
Tinkering with my list again for the umpteenth time, trying to make Speedwaaagh work for the last time before I cave and run Ghaz/Snagga Goffs.
Any thoughts on what I should do with my last 80 points? I'm erring toward a five man unit of Kommandos, Burna Boys or Tankbustas (if I can find five points somewhere) to sit in the Kannonwagon in my DZ and/or do actions, or a KBB .
I can see marine players pulling a hissy fit given that it bypasses their AoC buff, so I wouldn't be surprised if they jacked the prices if that catches on.
There used to be a calculation somewhere “how many MW per point” deal the orks units. And far best was the burnas but I don' t see why and I don' t remember what was the trick and I can' t find the article.
During a Waaagh! 10 goff burnas with zzapkrumpas popping the goff stratagem can theoretically deal an average of 5 mortal wounds for 130 points, which is 26 points per mortal wound. A nob on smasha squig pays the same per MW without any support.
Tomsug wrote: There used to be a calculation somewhere “how many MW per point” deal the orks units. And far best was the burnas but I don' t see why and I don' t remember what was the trick and I can' t find the article.
Tomsug wrote: There used to be a calculation somewhere “how many MW per point” deal the orks units. And far best was the burnas but I don' t see why and I don' t remember what was the trick and I can' t find the article.
Looks like we're getting points for free from now on, which is a good and a bad thing, because it means 15 point bomb squigs could be just around the corner!
tulun wrote: Half CP to start the game, but we get 2 CP a turn.
Seems a bit rough as Orks wanna pregame spend 6-8 :(
Yeah, it's definitely going to restrict our pre-grame strats and the number of detachments which isn't ideal for us. I think what is going to make/break us is what the new secondaries they are releasing looks like, because as it is right now, our bespoke ones are meh at best and we don't have many that suit our army very well.
Grimskul wrote: Looks like we're getting points for free from now on, which is a good and a bad thing, because it means 15 point bomb squigs could be just around the corner!
Warcom is blocked for me rn, how many free points are we getting?
Tested the mortal wound strategy by adding 2 x Tankbustas and Kommandos tonight in a game vs Nids and must say it was quite fresh to have that tool in the box. I actually blew up the Swarmlord with Squigs
I guess GW is noticing that CP and Strats aren´t working that well. Auspex Tactics did a good review of the problem and various solutions concluding that there´s no real good way. Personally I do like the concept but as would say it´s bloated out of proportion.
Grimskul wrote: Looks like we're getting points for free from now on, which is a good and a bad thing, because it means 15 point bomb squigs could be just around the corner!
Warcom is blocked for me rn, how many free points are we getting?
Sorry, I mean free points in terms of points updates not being locked behind the books anymore. They said that they're going to be making it available on the WHC website and the app. Which makes sense given how untenable their supply chain issue with releases are and how some codices were outdated upon release.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Scactha wrote: Tested the mortal wound strategy by adding 2 x Tankbustas and Kommandos tonight in a game vs Nids and must say it was quite fresh to have that tool in the box. I actually blew up the Swarmlord with Squigs
I guess GW is noticing that CP and Strats aren´t working that well. Auspex Tactics did a good review of the problem and various solutions concluding that there´s no real good way. Personally I do like the concept but as would say it´s bloated out of proportion.
I mean given how they said some supplements/books were slated to be outdated for matched play around Jan 2023, I think that demonstrates that some form of edition revamp is underway, 10th ed or 9.5, I could see them consolidating them like they did in AoS where you only have a certain number of universal ones that you can use to prevent the sheer amount of bookkeeping that is common in games nowadays.
Scactha wrote: Tested the mortal wound strategy by adding 2 x Tankbustas and Kommandos tonight in a game vs Nids and must say it was quite fresh to have that tool in the box. I actually blew up the Swarmlord with Squigs
I guess GW is noticing that CP and Strats aren´t working that well. Auspex Tactics did a good review of the problem and various solutions concluding that there´s no real good way. Personally I do like the concept but as would say it´s bloated out of proportion.
Half cp to start will kill the triple detachment lists
Orks spend all our cp pregame (except speedmob) because our Strats in general are overpriced or awful…
Dual detachment lists with a second relic warlord trait warlord is going to be rough on cp..
But the vast majority of ork lists are single detachments now and it’s not a huge reason to take bloodaxes for it.
I got to see what the breakdown is because 1/2 starting cp tend to benefit smaller detachments and hurt battalions/brigades.
gungo wrote: Half cp to start will kill the triple detachment lists
Orks spend all our cp pregame (except speedmob) because our Strats in general are overpriced or awful…
Dual detachment lists with a second relic warlord trait warlord is going to be rough on cp..
But the vast majority of ork lists are single detachments now and it’s not a huge reason to take bloodaxes for it.
I got to see what the breakdown is because 1/2 starting cp tend to benefit smaller detachments and hurt battalions/brigades.
Yeah, with that change I feel like we need a fundamental rewrite for our codex at that point given how we're a datasheet army with meh strats at best.
Nachmund already coming to an end? i Have barely had any games with the Nachmund rules.
There needs to be serious changes to the detatchment CP sink if we are to start with half. Most ork armies have 2 detatchments to allow for 2 warbosses. But in general, i dont hope they just feth up the ork army even further. I hope with nihilus or what ever its called the new zone, that they make changes that still incorporates all the factions so that they work. So one faction isnt just shafted because they didnt bother making it work.
And for us, we tend to get hit hard by it. As an ork player, because of that, i tend to fear when GW makes changes. Despite the fact we're a mid tier faction if not a tad below that, we're still not receiving any helping hands.
I really fear these new changes, but i also find them intriguing as it does freshen up the game and changes things. Hopefully it will be good for us rather than a turd served on a plate.
Scactha wrote: Tested the mortal wound strategy by adding 2 x Tankbustas and Kommandos tonight in a game vs Nids and must say it was quite fresh to have that tool in the box. I actually blew up the Swarmlord with Squigs
I guess GW is noticing that CP and Strats aren´t working that well. Auspex Tactics did a good review of the problem and various solutions concluding that there´s no real good way. Personally I do like the concept but as would say it´s bloated out of proportion.
I would like a general rewrite that simply pulls back the rules bloat and lethality in all aspects. GW is really shooting itself in the foot by both incentivizing picking fewer sturdy units, making the game visually less attractive and raising the entry point complexity wise. I can´t see how anyone in Sales would think this is a good idea. They should make a game that rewards players using each factions common dudes and them being simple to use.
The rolling and shifting army bonuses that creates the mental overhead are annoying. From Necrons to Nids it´s not doing much to create an interest. Strats are the same as mentioned before. A subset of the are used and the rest mostly forgotten. Simplify.
Grotz are awesome for holding the back objective, retrieving data, screening out the deploy zone and ticking Green Tide points. Can´t leave home without them
The issue is at the other end. Our offensive capability.
I put 10 of them in a BW to join 5 meganobz. This way no meganobz die if their transport is wrecked and the little gitz can find some use later if they get deployed, on their own or in conjunction with the big guys. No obj sec though, they can't embark otherwise.
Scactha wrote: Grotz are awesome for holding the back objective, retrieving data, screening out the deploy zone and ticking Green Tide points. Can´t leave home without them
The issue is at the other end. Our offensive capability.
I dunno, for the points I pay for them I'd rather they have more defense or utility. T3 is a terrible trade off for additional negative morale rules, a 7+ save in the open and being almost double the cost of what they were before while also losing baseline obsec. They should honestly stop with the whole "grots are too weedy for kulturs" mentality and let them benefit from Kulturs, keep obsec and remove the negative combat attrition rule and either build in grot shields as a rule for them OR give them a -1 to hit when an enemy is more than 12" from them.
Shortly - it is legal but some TO ban it via houserule. My comment - as I see Australia seems to be very strict, US seems to be pretty open and in EU every area has it' s own opinion….
Automatically Appended Next Post: I had an interesting discussion about Attakc out of da Sun issue with Andrew Sherman. Andrew is Australia guy and you can remember his name from my Competitive Innovations, one of the lists was his and I commented this list “watch, this guy wins and plays strictly, what droped cannot fly away in the same turn”
Andrew play it this way until these days. Mostly because in AUS most of the organizers houserule AOOTS this way and because he thinks, it' s right.
However…
- He has constant 75% win rate after long set of tournaments.
- HE PLAYS NOBZ ON WARBIKES!
Tomsug wrote: I had an interesting discussion about Attakc out of da Sun issue with Andrew Sherman. Andrew is Australia guy and you can remember his name from my Competitive Innovations, one of the lists was his and I commented this list “watch, this guy wins and plays strictly, what droped cannot fly away in the same turn”
Andrew play it this way until these days. Mostly because in AUS most of the organizers houserule AOOTS this way and because he thinks, it' s right.
However…
- He has constant 75% win rate after long set of tournaments.
- HE PLAYS NOBZ ON WARBIKES!
Awaiting the inevitable "It´s not Goff pressure hence bad. He´s only playing in a soft environment etc." responses in 3, 2 1...
Very interesting find Tomsug! I´d love to find some commentary on his list and strategy. What secondaries does he use, deploy and game plan?
Isn't nobs on warbikes a factor of the limit of 3 of each unit? I find it hard to believe he wouldn't be using more warbiker units otherwise, since he already has 3 and the nob units just have choppas.
I was the one who emailed into goonhammer about the orks attack out of the sun. https://www.goonhammer.com/ruleshammer-40k-qa-may-6th-2022/ There's an agreement that RAW allow for some squirely shiz. I know some people on here don't rate goonhammer but the consensus is to confirm with tournament organisers.
I know some tournament organisers don't like to change rules but anything that reminds GW we exist and need a little TLC is good
CaptainO wrote: I was the one who emailed into goonhammer about the orks attack out of the sun. https://www.goonhammer.com/ruleshammer-40k-qa-may-6th-2022/ There's an agreement that RAW allow for some squirely shiz. I know some people on here don't rate goonhammer but the consensus is to confirm with tournament organisers.
I know some tournament organisers don't like to change rules but anything that reminds GW we exist and need a little TLC is good
Tomsug wrote: I had an interesting discussion about Attakc out of da Sun issue with Andrew Sherman. Andrew is Australia guy and you can remember his name from my Competitive Innovations, one of the lists was his and I commented this list “watch, this guy wins and plays strictly, what droped cannot fly away in the same turn”
Andrew play it this way until these days. Mostly because in AUS most of the organizers houserule AOOTS this way and because he thinks, it' s right.
However…
- He has constant 75% win rate after long set of tournaments.
- HE PLAYS NOBZ ON WARBIKES!
Awaiting the inevitable "It´s not Goff pressure hence bad. He´s only playing in a soft environment etc." responses in 3, 2 1...
Very interesting find Tomsug! I´d love to find some commentary on his list and strategy. What secondaries does he use, deploy and game plan?
CaptainO wrote: The Ozzies list is very interesting. He has plenty of units for engage and 3 units to push forward for RnD.
He could shuffle one of the two large deffkoptas so he could make them both boomboyz although it means they can't use drive by dakka
Interesting that he's forgone any planes
Automatically Appended Next Post: I don't think it's too much of a stretch to say the rukkatrukk squad is dead
It's definitely a list that has doubled down on playing for points rather than for damage.
I'd imagine that post-dataslate the list would likely drop the Rukkatrukks and a handful of koptas to squeeze some Wazboms in, or going for Scrapjets and a handful of weapon upgrades.
But yeah, the Squigbuggy is probably dead. A single nitro Squigs one just doesn't do enough damage, and three also doesn't do enough damage and is a silly amount of points to sink. I dropped it from my list for more koptas.
Had a second and third match with the orks this week, both games with the same lists as we both made mistakes and I conceded on turn 2 as my army was, frankly, gone.
ayng Bloodaxes and in the second game (let's not mention the first...) I think I did well enough, but there were a few things I am considering.
1: Against a fast CC army, I almost want to go second, and hang back. I went first both times, and both times I found myself unable to capitalise on Da Jump because there was nowhere in the enemy backfield that I could go. I think I might judge the opponent next time and if they look like they're moving forward then I can go second to let them.
2: Moving boys off the board and into strategic reserves is a cool way to bait the enemy. If yo uhave 2 units of boys and a weirdboy, you can jump one and strategic-reserve the other right off one corner of the board.
3: Wazbomm Blastajet is not good. I thought it would be, but now I'm on 3 games where it has underperformed, so it's getting cut.
4: When fighting Orks, you need to be offensive. Snagga boys will wreck you in a charge, but you can wreck them first with a good charge. Need to get some minimal kommandos or meganobs units to make use of the "Got 'm Trapped" stratagem to really hit 'em hard!
Next game I will be trying to work out a good repacement for the Wazbomm - possibly some shooty dreads to hold objectives and stomp around. I think 4KMB is going to be about on-par with a wazbomm, but it can also hold objectives and be cheaper!
some bloke wrote: 3: Wazbomm Blastajet is not good. I thought it would be, but now I'm on 3 games where it has underperformed, so it's getting cut.
I agree. A lot of people online like to talk up the wazbomm, but with a 4+ bs, random shots and random damage on all its best weapons I find it very inconsistent. If you're looking to replace some of that firepower I might recommend some mek gunz; they're also pretty inconsistent, but at least are a hell of a lot cheaper.
Inconsistent shooting is the ork basic characteristic. And wazboom honestly is one of the most reliable. You can reroll one D6 shot from TMB to stabilize the number of shots and dmg 3+D3 is pretty reliable.
But expensive like a hell!
On the other other side - one of the coolest models in our army!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Marshal Petterson krumps in Seatle undefeated and 5th right know after 4 games with his Blood Axe kunnin list
Now I'm just waiting for GW to invalidate our Octarius book early so BA players lose additional tools and we lose Speed Mob as well. To compensate, they'll give us a AoR in White Dwarf for a Gretchin only detachment that gives us garbage strats and meaningless buffs like all Gretchin Infantry getting Obsec.
Calm down it’s 1x 10 place finish at a grand tournament that was missing a lot of the well known competitive players and it’s still not a hard list to kill a handful of ork boys. The old kommando rush list already had alot of squig bombs as auto includes and was a better list… I mean this list goes even more all in on bomb squigs but that’s because everything else was nerfed.
The AOOTS trick isn’t a huge issue either as it’s super expensive strat that’s hard to use multiple times without running out of cp and people were using a much more manageable drive by Dakka along with AOOTS already.
Inspired by the apparent success of the bomb squig / mortal wound spam lists.
I am taking something similar to GT Birmingham in a few weeks.
As I haven't tested this list and I'm a confused old boomer hoping somebody can help me out with a couple of rules questions.
1. Do bomb squigs ignore Look out sir?
2. Do bomb squigs ignore Line of sight?
Finally do you think I can use markers rather than bomb squigs (in case mine don't arrive from e-bay) they aren't models in the strictest sense are they, they just indicate how many squigs the unit has left to fire.
Pickled_egg wrote: Inspired by the apparent success of the bomb squig / mortal wound spam lists.
I am taking something similar to GT Birmingham in a few weeks.
As I haven't tested this list and I'm a confused old boomer hoping somebody can help me out with a couple of rules questions.
1. Do bomb squigs ignore Look out sir? 2. Do bomb squigs ignore Line of sight?
Finally do you think I can use markers rather than bomb squigs (in case mine don't arrive from e-bay) they aren't models in the strictest sense are they, they just indicate how many squigs the unit has left to fire.
1) They ignore look out sir as they are not a normal "ranged attack". Look out sir only protects against ranged attacks, which squig bombs are not. 2) I could be wrong, but im fairly sure they do not require line of sight. because again, they are not ranged attacks.
To your last question, you dont need any markers at all. The codex states that they simply recommend that you have the bombs as counters. That means you dont need any counters at all if you can remember the amount in your head. hell, put a piece of paper or a die.
On another note, you cant advance and fire the squig unless you have an assault weapon on you since you cant activate shooting otherwise. So kommandos (who uses pistols) would need a model with a burna for that and tankbustas will never be able to and squig riders always can.
Im a little unsure if you, when you are within engagement range, can target a unit outside engagement range with a bomb squig during your shooting phase. I mean you have pistols (IF you have pistols so i guess kommandos and pistol tankbustas only and never squig riders) so you can activate shooting, and its not a ranged attack, so i would assume you can also target units outside engagement range because it doesnt follow the standard shooting rules.
Pickled_egg wrote: Inspired by the apparent success of the bomb squig / mortal wound spam lists.
I am taking something similar to GT Birmingham in a few weeks.
As I haven't tested this list and I'm a confused old boomer hoping somebody can help me out with a couple of rules questions.
1. Do bomb squigs ignore Look out sir?
2. Do bomb squigs ignore Line of sight?
Finally do you think I can use markers rather than bomb squigs (in case mine don't arrive from e-bay) they aren't models in the strictest sense are they, they just indicate how many squigs the unit has left to fire.
1) They ignore look out sir as they are not a normal "ranged attack". Look out sir only protects against ranged attacks, which squig bombs are not.
2) I could be wrong, but im fairly sure they do not require line of sight. because again, they are not ranged attacks.
To your last question, you dont need any markers at all. The codex states that they simply recommend that you have the bombs as counters. That means you dont need any counters at all if you can remember the amount in your head. hell, put a piece of paper or a die.
On another note, you cant advance and fire the squig unless you have an assault weapon on you since you cant activate shooting otherwise. So kommandos (who uses pistols) would need a model with a burna for that and tankbustas will never be able to and squig riders always can.
Im a little unsure if you, when you are within engagement range, can target a unit outside engagement range with a bomb squig during your shooting phase. I mean you have pistols (IF you have pistols so i guess kommandos and pistol tankbustas only) you can activate shooting, and its not a ranged attack, so i would assume you can also target units outside engagement range because it doesnt follow the standard shooting rules.
some bloke wrote: Can someone tell me what this "AOOTS trick" is? What does it stand for?
It's a speed mob specific stratagem for 2 CP where you get to choose a unit of deffkoptas at the end of your turn to go back into reserves so you can deep strike them again in a subsequent turn. You can do this even if they're currently in combat.
Koptas move, shoot, charge (and deal MW), fight and than come the end of the turn. First you score Engage/Stranglehold/Behind with them and then you take them of the table. And you do it with all squads you want so up to 3 in a time.
Next turn, you drop them on the table 9”away and do the same and then fly away again.
And again
And again…
The trap is in this aspects:
- 2CP per turn per unit…
- you lost the control of the table
- clever and fast opponent can screen you away from interesting shooting range/LOS/ charges and make your dropped koptas useless.
- the most clever opponent screen you out so, there will be no space for your koptas next turn, so they get bored and fly for a bier (count as killed)..
Ilgoth wrote: How do you guys deliver burnas into the fight in the current meta?
I've only really been seeing them used in two ways as of late, if at all: min sized mob for something cheap for holding objectives that isn't Gretchin or a fast attack slot, or min sized mob for something that isn't Gretchin to go in a battlewagon to save MANz from dying when/if the wagon explodes.
There's a bit of meme potential with 15 Zzapkrumpas Burna Boys fishing for mortal wounds, but as ever it has a big issue of being very fragile and very hard to efficiently deliver.
Ilgoth wrote: How do you guys deliver burnas into the fight in the current meta?
By combining a slingshot and the old metal models
In a bloodaxe list you can have them walk on from reserves for varying success, essentially they are just shoota boyz that don't suck and should be treated as such. If they die, they die.
Ilgoth wrote: How do you guys deliver burnas into the fight in the current meta?
I’ve had recent success with a full 12+3 as Pyromaniacs lately, Tellyporta’d in as a precision strike unit. Usually on the opposite side of the board from where all my heavy hitters are, they’ll take out an exposed unit.
Question: What Secondaries do you guys deem takeable for Orks in 9th? I had a few games and so far I took mostly "Engage on All Fronts" and "Behind enemy lines" with a random 3rd... Any tips which to take and what units are best for the job? Thanks!! (Have a 1000 Points game against Genestealers coming up and am hanging a bit in the air.)
Usually it's 1 Battlefield supremacy (engage/behind/Stranglehold), 1 shadow operation (RND, Banner, DA Good Bitz) and the 3rd depends on opponent's army but usually not easy to pick
If you have a psyker, Interrogation or Ritual are maybe okay?
You cannot have both Engage and Behind Ennemy line at the same time, as they are both 'Battlefield supremacy' secondaries.
LeRufus wrote: Question: What Secondaries do you guys deem takeable for Orks in 9th? I had a few games and so far I took mostly "Engage on All Fronts" and "Behind enemy lines" with a random 3rd... Any tips which to take and what units are best for the job? Thanks!! (Have a 1000 Points game against Genestealers coming up and am hanging a bit in the air.)
To be honest, that's one of the main problems for our Ork codex because we don't really have many great options for our third pick. For Speed Mob, Grab da Good Bitz isn't terrible. Otherwise it's pretty dependent on who you're facing. (i.e. against an army with lots of characters like SoB, Assassinate isn't bad, for armies with a decent number of vehicles/monsters, Bring it Down).
LeRufus wrote: Question: What Secondaries do you guys deem takeable for Orks in 9th? I had a few games and so far I took mostly "Engage on All Fronts" and "Behind enemy lines" with a random 3rd... Any tips which to take and what units are best for the job? Thanks!! (Have a 1000 Points game against Genestealers coming up and am hanging a bit in the air.)
You can't take them both. I typically choose one of those two, then a kill oriented secondary based on the opponent and alternatively To The Last (my usual 3rd pick) or Grab Da Good Bitz depending on the kind of list I bring. Banner is pretty common and decent enough to consider, maybe even RND, I'm just not a fan of those as I don't like running footslogging units other than some kommandos.
Jidmah wrote: If you are in a transport, you can't be within 6" inches of anything.
I know very well, my big mek has died more than once after getting out of his transport for that CP
riiight. thats what i assumed too. I guess ill use the warlord trait just for the ability to kill characters then, while drifting around in a trukk with trukkboyz in it for the +1 to hit.
Beardedragon wrote: riiight. thats what i assumed too. I guess ill use the warlord trait just for the ability to kill characters then, while drifting around in a trukk with trukkboyz in it for the +1 to hit.
I run the big mek with opportunist, KMB with kustom job and tellyporta blasta to upgrade a trukkboy trukk into a short ranged super-buggy. At 175 it's not that much more expensive than a kannonwagon either.
Beardedragon wrote: riiight. thats what i assumed too. I guess ill use the warlord trait just for the ability to kill characters then, while drifting around in a trukk with trukkboyz in it for the +1 to hit.
I run the big mek with opportunist, KMB with kustom job and tellyporta blasta to upgrade a trukkboy trukk into a short ranged super-buggy. At 175 it's not that much more expensive than a kannonwagon either.
I use a Big Mek with tellyport blasta too. But i used da dead shiny shoota instead. Do you find it more beneficial to use the kustom mega blasta and the kustom job? I thought the shoota relic would fare better.
How do you only get a price of 175 points?
Trukk is 70
Trukkboy boyz are 90
The Big Mek is like 95 or something with the tellyport blasta.
You need the trukkboyz to get +1 to hit, unless you just use the Trukk and a big mek without trukkboyz so you hit on 4s?
You need the trukkboyz to get +1 to hit, unless you just use the Trukk and a big mek without trukkboyz so you hit on 4s?
Or you can play Freebootas. I love the Shiny Shoota freebootas big mek, even prefer it to the wartrike: I never want a 3rd HQ anyway and I can't give up the bikerboss.
Diakos wrote: Another Imperial Armour Compendium FAQ with no new clarifications for Orks.
I sent an email to the FAQ/Errata contact back in February with this:
Hello,
I have noticed that the profile and abilities for the Nobz on Warbikes datasheet in the Imperial Arnour Compendium is inconsistent with the 9th edition Codex: Orks Warbikers datasheet. In the codex datasheet, the Warbiker unit may include a Boss Nob on Warbike, who as part of the Warbiker datasheet has the Big Red Button and Cloud of Smoke abilities, as well as 4 Wounds in its characteristics in contrast to the 3 Wounds on the normal Warbikers. However, while the Nobz on Warbikes datasheet was given an errata update after the 9th edition Codex: Orks was released, it simply updated several army-wide abilities (Waaagh!, 'Ere We Go, Mob Rule) to refer directly to Codex: Orks for their rules details. One would have expected that the Nobz on Warbikes datasheet and characteristics would also be updated to reflect that of the new Boss Nob on Warbike, giving them an additional Wound each as well as the Cloud of Smoke and Big Red Button abilities, but this was not the case. This inconsistency is particularly glaring when one notices that the Nobz on Warbikes datasheet includes a characteristic line specifically for an identically named "Boss Nob on Warbike" who may be included in a mob of Nobz on Warbikes, which also lacks the additional Wound his codex counterpart enjoys.
It's also worth mentioning that another Imperial Armour Compendium datasheet for the Orks faction, the Warboss on Warbike, did receive an errata update which added the Big Red Button (but not Cloud of Smoke, understandably, as a single bike might not kick up enough exhaust to afford it the vision obscuring effects that merit a -1 to hit penalty!). So this is yet another inconsistency in how the errata for the Nobz on Warbikes datasheet was treated, even relative to other Ork faction Imperial Armour Compendium datasheets.
Thank you for your time.
Gonna send it again with a blue text update referring to the continuing inconsistency as of "Indomitus Version 1.4".
I’ve sent a similar one regularly as well before and after octarius and during other semi relevant times… the intern is putting my emails into the trash…. Mostly the rules team sounds stretched and is playing whack a mole right now… the only way we are getting attention is during competitive events we either are broken 60+% win rates or are the worst army (currently guard)… good news is we are averaging ~40% win rates and are almost one of the worst codexs… bad news is we have a handful of overachievers pulling the curve up we keep going down this path we are bound to get looked at hopefully it’s before GW starts working on 10th and stops caring about 9th. Once Guard and chaos get thier codex we may become arguably the worst codex…
Honestly I think we are likely to get some mediocre points decreases in the next chapter approved and I expect AOOTS to get nerfed since Tyranids are bringing renewed attention to end of turn Strats.
ive sent such an email at least 3 times since our codex dropped.
They dont care. Im baffled they did a faq at all because im just waiting for the announcement "40k forgeworld is now discontinued"
im not even printing things for forgeworld proxying reasons anymore.
The really baffling thing is by GW's own standards they're not technically a forgeworld exclusive unit, you build them with the existing Warbikers kit. And before you say, "well that's a box that has its own datasheet" I direct you to any number of boxes that build models for one datasheet and one(s) for another simultaneously: Within our own faction there's the MA Big Mek, Nob ok Smasha Squig, Runtherd, etc. There's no reason GW couldn't make them a codex unit again any day they felt like it.
You need the trukkboyz to get +1 to hit, unless you just use the Trukk and a big mek without trukkboyz so you hit on 4s?
Or you can play Freebootas. I love the Shiny Shoota freebootas big mek, even prefer it to the wartrike: I never want a 3rd HQ anyway and I can't give up the bikerboss.
that is true but you wont get the opportunist trait then
Beardedragon wrote: riiight. thats what i assumed too. I guess ill use the warlord trait just for the ability to kill characters then, while drifting around in a trukk with trukkboyz in it for the +1 to hit.
I run the big mek with opportunist, KMB with kustom job and tellyporta blasta to upgrade a trukkboy trukk into a short ranged super-buggy. At 175 it's not that much more expensive than a kannonwagon either.
I use a Big Mek with tellyport blasta too. But i used da dead shiny shoota instead. Do you find it more beneficial to use the kustom mega blasta and the kustom job? I thought the shoota relic would fare better.
The relic is one CP and kind of falls flat against units with good saves, which is everything marine now. It's quite good at wiping out support characters and lightly armored units, but neither really is an issue for orks.
There also is the issue of the tellyporta blasta being optimal against other targets than the shiney shoota.
The KMB+1 always wants to shoot the same things as the tellyporta blasta and is fairly decent against almost all character, elite unit or vehicle out there. Most often I find myself shooting vehicles, monsters or TEQ with it, things which are not easy to handle with other parts of the speed waaagh toolbox. With command re-rolls for damage or tellyporta shots, you can cause some pretty mean damage spikes, suddenly taking out an enemy asset that they didn't expect to die.
Since both weapons are blast, units of 6 or more models can also be killed quite efficiently with its guaranteed 7 S8 shots.
With the shiney shoota you constantly find yourself in situations where you don't have any good targets to shoot. There always is a target you want to shoot with a KMB+1.
How do you only get a price of 175 points?
Trukk is 70
Trukkboy boyz are 90
The Big Mek is like 95 or something with the tellyport blasta.
Big mek is 105 with kustom job. Essentially I don't consider trukk boyz as part of the cost because they provide me with 2 CP for their patrol and they do their obsec infantry stuff anyways, the mek and trukk serve as upgrade to them.
Essentially it's a way to make trukk boyz suck less by making their trukk more useful.
You need the trukkboyz to get +1 to hit, unless you just use the Trukk and a big mek without trukkboyz so you hit on 4s?
Depends on the game, but trukk boyz need to do trukkboy stuff, if you just cart them around as +1 to hit buff, the "super buggy" jumps up to 265 which is way to expensive.
The mek trukk absolutely needs to be hidden from sight on deployment, and then you can either
1) move and shoot at 3+. If there is a juicy target to shoot and there simply is not good reason to disembark, you can get that extra boost and lay down some shooting that is putting marines to shame.
2) advance and shoot at 4+. If there are no good targets or you simply want to keep the trukk safe and you don't want to disembark, just advance and still shoot at full BS.
3) move, disembark and shoot at 4+. Trukk boys do their thing and you just shoot good targets. Against some armies you can have some synergies by using the mek to blow up a support character and then charge the weakened unit it was supporting.
Afterwards the trukk just drives about and shoots things, with the option to blow up lynchpin characters or psykers at will. Make sure the mek can disembark into cover when the opponent takes out the trukk so it can hide behind the 1+ armor save. From there, you either take pot shots at stuff within 24" or try to challenge an objective with your obsec character.
If there are any surviving trukk boyz around, you can always pick them up for the +1 hit if it makes sense, but for me it most commonly makes more sense to just have them die to the last ork on an objective.
I'm not even sure they'll bother because our Octarius rules and strats are going to be invalidated in a year anyways. I'm hoping GW negligence means we skimp by, but if tournies and other things start doing this to AoTS, then you know that Ork hate bias is really kicking in. We shouldn't though given how little we're placing in tournaments right now.
I mean - GW will not give a gak but other playiers will. That is the point of my note. It will be a mess.
I really do not hope or anything that GW would make some fixes with orks. IMHO I expect they fired the crew that made this and now are in the middle of hiring new one to make it brand new for 10th.
There was a dev at rockstar games who applied for a job, fixed that one bug which annoyed him to no end, waited for its deployment and then quit the company. I'd totally do the same for the next ork codex
I don't even want to write a new codex, just fix the stuff that's broken.
Jidmah wrote: There was a dev at rockstar games who applied for a job, fixed that one bug which annoyed him to no end, waited for its deployment and then quit the company. I'd totally do the same for the next ork codex
I don't even want to write a new codex, just fix the stuff that's broken.
Seriously, if GW is short on manpower I'm pretty sure most of the Ork players on this thread could bang out a draft in 30 min to an hour that is better than what GW could print in a codex after a year.
I remember when the codex was leaking from the app and I was like “oh this stuff just ain’t fully integrated onto the app yet” then it released and it was equally questionable.
Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote: I remember when the codex was leaking from the app and I was like “oh this stuff just ain’t fully integrated onto the app yet” then it released and it was equally questionable.
Back when we thought grots could have kultur and make transfungus snakebitez grots, *sigh*, it feels so long ago now lol.
Jidmah wrote: So, these trukks are used solely to protect and sling stormboyz?
I remember some unorthodox Ork tourney list that did the same thing, just it was back in the old 8th ed codex. Basically using the 3" extra deploy movement to get into range to do actions.
Tomsug wrote: Lewis Archer won another tournament Geek Retret Middlesbrought and this kicks him to be the Top Ork player in this Frontlinegaming top score list:-)
Looks like he's relying on the Bosses, MANz and Kill Rigs to either do all the damage, or soak all the damage, while he then has a lot of units to go out to score VPs. It's a nice list.
On another note, I've been trying out the Dakka Mek in a Trukk that Jidmah was talking about a little ways back and I love it. Perfect complement to any list that takes buggies.
I had yesterday my first match Vs new marine armour rule (Greys) and was like playing on hard mode. His list nothing to write home about and mine was supposed to be "competitive" (army of reknown).
Match ended close but simply because my opponent was novel. I could see him making "mistakes" over mistakes and in the end didn't matter.
Goff rush might be the last built we have but I am not so excited about it.
LeRufus wrote: Quick question: Can i put Badrukk in a Goff List or Zagstruk into a Freebooter List?
I am not so sure with the new "No Soup" regulations^^
you can include badrukk in a goff detatchment.
But you cant include zagstruk in anything other than a goff detatchment.
Badrukk is a "specialist Ladz" but zagstruk is not.
LeRufus wrote: Quick question: Can i put Badrukk in a Goff List or Zagstruk into a Freebooter List?
I am not so sure with the new "No Soup" regulations^^
you can include badrukk in a goff detatchment.
But you cant include zagstruk in anything other than a goff detatchment.
Badrukk is a "specialist Ladz" but zagstruk is not.
That's not entirely true.
You can put Zagstruk in an army of freebootas, but his detachment would lose their culture.
The anti-soup rule only applies to models which have the actual <CLAN> keyword, but not to units which have a fixed clan like our named characters.
LeRufus wrote: Quick question: Can i put Badrukk in a Goff List or Zagstruk into a Freebooter List?
I am not so sure with the new "No Soup" regulations^^
you can include badrukk in a goff detatchment.
But you cant include zagstruk in anything other than a goff detatchment.
Badrukk is a "specialist Ladz" but zagstruk is not.
That's not entirely true.
You can put Zagstruk in an army of freebootas, but his detachment would lose their culture.
The anti-soup rule only applies to models which have the actual <CLAN> keyword, but not to units which have a fixed clan like our named characters.
wait what?
As far as i understand, badrukk would not get his own klan in a deathskulls detatchment but the deathskulls would keep theirs.
How is that different when using a non specialist lad? The way i read what you said i get it as zagstrukk too would lose his own kulture but they keep theirs. It sounds just like a normal specialist ladz?
You can still get multiple Clan traits if you trick around with patrol detachments and specialist lads.
Main detachment of your choice, for example Goffs.
Snakebite patrol detachment with Mozrog and Trukk boys or orrible gitz.
Freebooters patrol detachment with Badrukk and Trukk boys or orrible gitz.
As you only need to have the same <clan> keyword if possible that list would still be legal as the special characters + all specialist mobs don't have that. So up to 3 clan traits but you can only play 1 HQ and 1 specialist troop because otherwise the mono clan restriction would kick in.
And of course you'll only get the trait for those HQ's and might have some limitations on transport and certain auras.
And of course the specialist lads Thraka, Badrukk, Magari, Grotsnik and Zodgrod who can be part of any detachment but don't get the clan Trait unless the detachment matches their own clan keyword but also don't prevent the units in said detachment to gain the clan culture.
Beardedragon wrote: How is that different when using a non specialist lad? The way i read what you said i get it as zagstrukk too would lose his own kulture but they keep theirs. It sounds just like a normal specialist ladz?
You only get a culture if all units in a detachment have the same culture or are specialist ladz.
Zagstrukk + GOFF boyz => GOFF detachment, Goff culture for all
Badrukk + GOFF boyz => GOFF detachment, Goff culture for boyz, no culture for Badrukk
Zagstrukk + FREEBOOTA boyz => ORK detachment, no culture for anyone
Badrukk + trukk boyz => FREEBOOTA detachment, freeboota culture for Badrukk, no culture for trukkboyz
FREEBOOTA warboss + GOFF boyz => illegal detachment in GT2022, tempest of war, ORK detachment in other mission packs.
Beardedragon wrote: How is that different when using a non specialist lad? The way i read what you said i get it as zagstrukk too would lose his own kulture but they keep theirs. It sounds just like a normal specialist ladz?
You only get a culture if all units in a detachment have the same culture or are specialist ladz.
Zagstrukk + GOFF boyz => GOFF detachment, Goff culture for all
Badrukk + GOFF boyz => GOFF detachment, Goff culture for boyz, no culture for Badrukk
Zagstrukk + FREEBOOTA boyz => ORK detachment, no culture for anyone
Badrukk + trukk boyz => FREEBOOTA detachment, freeboota culture for Badrukk, no culture for trukkboyz
FREEBOOTA warboss + GOFF boyz => illegal detachment in GT2022, tempest of war, ORK detachment in other mission packs.
now thats a really useful way to make people understand it.
Joe Rammuni was 8th at Motor City Mayhem - only ork list in CI with note:
You love to see it folks – sometimes a hero enters the arena to take an underperforming faction to the promised land and in this case Joe was that hero. Leveraging Ghaz, a couple of Wazbom jets, and a whole mess of Goff Beast Snaggas and Squighog Boyz he successfully took down two different Tyranid lists before losing to Manik in the main event, and again in the final cut. A heroic run nonetheless. Joe lost to Manik in the quarterfinals match.
Which could be discussed on facticity but that is not important. Goonhammer is not the source of ork wisdom and everybody knows it. Important is the perception of the orks. Becasue Goonhammer is very good mirror of the general atmosphere based on direct inputs from the people in top meta. They don' t give a gak about orks anymore. Nerf time is definitely over. Since now we are again nice and cute interesting rare faction.
+ HQ + Beastboss on Squigosaur [9 PL, -1CP, 175pts]: 4. Brutal but Kunnin, Headwoppa's Killchoppa, Stratagem: Big Boss
Painboss [5 PL, -2CP, 80pts]: 2. Big Gob, Power Snappa, Stratagem: Big Boss, Stratagem: Extra Gubbinz, Super Cybork Body
Weirdboy [4 PL, 70pts]: 2. Warpath, 3. Da Jump
Trying to put together a fun and non competitive list. Im pretty much working off of what is built and I can play fast games with. Buddy is still learning and I havent played in a while.
Dr.Duck wrote:Trying to put together a fun and non competitive list. Im pretty much working off of what is built and I can play fast games with. Buddy is still learning and I havent played in a while.
Debating on whether spending 100pts on the Bursta Kannons is worth it.
As far as klan goes I just really like snikrot and was running kommandos. Just as easily cut him and run as something else.
Honestly, I would consider a list with tripple killtanks neither fun nor fit to face a player still learning. Just replace them with walkers, wagons or squigs?
LeRufus wrote:Another One: In your Opinion, Ghazkull in a 1000 Points List? Too Expensive?
Maybe. Most 1k point missions expect you to be in multiple places, bringing a 300 point brick will severely limit your ability to split up unless the rest of your army is MSU infantry, for example small mobs of beast snagga boyz, kommadoz or MANz.
Thrakka in a vehicle list or one with other expensive units will make you unable to win the mission.
Another great succes in top competitve ork level in the international scale - I have 1 first and 4 second places on Prague GT!!
Well actualy, 1 win, 4 losses and it was my first GT ever
One win 20:0 for me, two games “I ´m a prick, I could easily win just the screen right or something”, one loss 11:9 againts eldar guy that finsihed 4th and one 20:0 loss againts another speed mob.
So I lm very happy. And very happy with my list. No changes required. Itp s about my praxis and knowledge of other armies.
The only game I have honestly no idea how to win is a mirror match againts another speed mob while going second. Who goes first do enough damage to make a game. It could be like 18:2 but not better. Speed Mob is simply too huge to hide againts another Spees Mob. Or maybe I will find the way but know I have no idea!
Lessons learned (on the tournament and in a training games before)
- single Shockjump do nothing. Useless screening buggy.
- snazzwagon actualy do quite a lot of damage!
- it´ s all about the wazbooms. If you keep them alive and shoot in two turns to the right targets, you propably win. In they die after one turn, you are in hell. All lost games was a fails in this.
- we are bloody good in screening the field. Deepstriking armies suffered like a hell!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh yes, and I ´m the second in painting competition.
So my targets succesfully reached. To win one game and score in painting
Automatically Appended Next Post: Goonhammer posted meta analasys of Orks. There are some really incredible theories, like that it' s a perfect idea to protect your Boyz (100p dedicated to die) by the base of the wazbooms (230p dedicated to live and shoot) or that the best idea how to move Ghazzy is by Da Jump (ghazzy is not a core, so it doesn' t work) or that Stomp ' Em Good is a great secondary? Or that Squighog boyz are great for T1 charge?
Or do I miss something?
Wazboms didn’t go away, you just can’t take four of them anymore! They’re still very strong from a pure output standpoint, and can act as solid screening for your Squighog boyz and other units – while your opponent can still walk across the bases, they can’t end up on top of them, so with careful placement of your models you can ensure that your boyz aren’t easily charged while the jets are still up.
Even beyond the jets, this is an incredibly fast list – the slowest parts are Ghaz and the Beast Snaggas, but the plan is to shoot them across the table early with Da Jump. The Squighog boyz are a big part of the army’s early strategy, with a Waaagh!-boosted threat range of 20” on average and with a re-roll or two in the mix something closer to 24”. That’s not so much a guaranteed first-turn charge going first on missions where you are 24” apart, so it may often behoove players with this list to play a bit more cagey on turn 1 if there’s no good target. Otherwise, they’re a great meta play for hunting down Tyranid MONSTERS, and even when going up against Hive Fleet Leviathan’s transhuman bonus you’ll often still be able to make use of the Monster Hunterz Stratagem against T7+ targets.
Most games you’ll be taking Stomp ‘Em Good to take advantage of your army’s melee prowess, and even if you don’t get off a nasty turn 1 charge you’ll usually be able to max it on the other four turns. After that, Stranglehold and Banners will be your best non-kill secondary options, since you’ve got the bodies to hold backfield objectives and your army is more than happy to fight over the middle of the table if that’s where an opponent wants to go. That said, Tyranids are still a problem for this army, particularly if it can’t make things happen turn 1 and pick up a big bug or two.
Like most playtesters or most competitive players; goonhammer has no one who actually plays orks competitively giving any analysis… they regularly get things wrong and the rest of the player base takes what they say as gospel.
I prefer Art of War, they have been on point for everything orky in the current meta. In GH the only one with a semblance of know how i think it's the drukari one? Pardon dunno names, his photo is usually on drukkari cameo, but he managed to digest the changes for our buggies last nerf. But that's about IT. The reason i like AoW is because they involve all armies and give a comprehensive exposition. GH just talks of high meta and they feel SM bias.
gungo wrote: Like most playtesters or most competitive players; goonhammer has no one who actually plays orks competitively giving any analysis… they regularly get things wrong and the rest of the player base takes what they say as gospel.
If you are a competitive 40k player you are not playing orks. Marshal Peterson is doing about the best you can possibly do with orks when you play to the missions and don't make mistakes. 10th place out of 200 is one of the best placings by one of the best ork players means you can't take a GT podium with them. Any mistakes punish more than most armies and in general that is not going to appeal to a competitive player. They tried orks, realized what was there did not work as well for competitive play and moved on.
gungo wrote: Like most playtesters or most competitive players; goonhammer has no one who actually plays orks competitively giving any analysis… they regularly get things wrong and the rest of the player base takes what they say as gospel.
If you are a competitive 40k player you are not playing orks. Marshal Peterson is doing about the best you can possibly do with orks when you play to the missions and don't make mistakes. 10th place out of 200 is one of the best placings by one of the best ork players means you can't take a GT podium with them. Any mistakes punish more than most armies and in general that is not going to appeal to a competitive player. They tried orks, realized what was there did not work as well for competitive play and moved on.
I have a very limited perspective of 9th but coming from 8th we have lost so many unique rules etc. Lost Dakka Dakka Dakka/Extra Dakka, auto hitting on 6s and getting a extra shot.
I really dont understand the limitaion of not being able to split buggy squadrons. It is the only unit entry that I know of that is of a similar unit type/base size etc that cannot split upon deploying (Dreads, Mek Guns, other vehicle squadrons, Void weavers etc). On top of this we got 0-1. I feel like a eratta that adds can split is really needed now more than ever. I would definitely make buggies better but would it break them?
In casual games I see my self justs asking the opponent if I can split. Im more than willing to overlook the 0-1.
gungo wrote: Like most playtesters or most competitive players; goonhammer has no one who actually plays orks competitively giving any analysis… they regularly get things wrong and the rest of the player base takes what they say as gospel.
If you are a competitive 40k player you are not playing orks. Marshal Peterson is doing about the best you can possibly do with orks when you play to the missions and don't make mistakes. 10th place out of 200 is one of the best placings by one of the best ork players means you can't take a GT podium with them. Any mistakes punish more than most armies and in general that is not going to appeal to a competitive player. They tried orks, realized what was there did not work as well for competitive play and moved on.
I have a very limited perspective of 9th but coming from 8th we have lost so many unique rules etc. Lost Dakka Dakka Dakka/Extra Dakka, auto hitting on 6s and getting a extra shot.
I really dont understand the limitaion of not being able to split buggy squadrons. It is the only unit entry that I know of that is of a similar unit type/base size etc that cannot split upon deploying (Dreads, Mek Guns, other vehicle squadrons, Void weavers etc). On top of this we got 0-1. I feel like a eratta that adds can split is really needed now more than ever. I would definitely make buggies better but would it break them?
In casual games I see my self justs asking the opponent if I can split. Im more than willing to overlook the 0-1.
It's GW using a hammer rather than a scalpel as usualy when it comes to addressing rules. Especially for "NPC" factions like Orks, GW doesn't bother with nuanced approaches, since it basically kills Kustom Jobs in the codex (not that they were great to begin with...). Frankly it should either be the way it was back in 8th ed with how the Speed Mob rule worked or for them to change the restriction to 3 models max of each buggy per army.
gungo wrote: Like most playtesters or most competitive players; goonhammer has no one who actually plays orks competitively giving any analysis… they regularly get things wrong and the rest of the player base takes what they say as gospel.
If you are a competitive 40k player you are not playing orks. Marshal Peterson is doing about the best you can possibly do with orks when you play to the missions and don't make mistakes. 10th place out of 200 is one of the best placings by one of the best ork players means you can't take a GT podium with them. Any mistakes punish more than most armies and in general that is not going to appeal to a competitive player. They tried orks, realized what was there did not work as well for competitive play and moved on.
Even when orks had a 55% win rate and won the socal open in A meta dominated by broken admech and drukari… not a single competitive player switched to orks (except manny)… all they did was complain and whine about how orks are completely broken…how multiple units beyond squigbuggies OLoS shooting needed to be nerfed and how armies like drukari only needed a few adjustments… now it’s the same song about CWE and how they are fine… there is a strong bias to orks having competitive units.. there was no reason to limit buggies to 1 unit when they already had massive point increases in chapter approved, no reason to significantly increase points on kommandos, or beastboss on squig or even Killrig. They basically took decent units that weren’t broken and made them situational. Right now you can revert the squigbuggy point hike and remove the unit restriction on buggies and no one would play squigbuggies because the real issue was Olos shooting. Scrapjet is fine with it’s point increase and the aircraft limit is needed due to bad aircraft rules. Reverting those changes won’t make orks a top competitive army anymore the meta has already had several power creeps..
Quick question - Quick answer: Can i give my Kill Rig "Big Boss"? If so which trait can be given to it? Battle Scribe allows to check "Big Boss" but doesnt give me any choices for traits ^^'
LeRufus wrote: Quick question - Quick answer: Can i give my Kill Rig "Big Boss"? If so which trait can be given to it? Battle Scribe allows to check "Big Boss" but doesnt give me any choices for traits ^^'
I dont know about Battlescribe, but the Killrig is restricted to only the Beastgob warlord trait by page 51 of the Ork codex.
I'm toying around with a list to bring to a local tournament next month. It's 1500 points, and the meta isn't super competitive, but I still want to do well. What do you all think of this list?
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm trying to revive a Bad Moons shooting list, but our lootas are just so bad right now. I thought that the maxed squads of warbikes are pretty close, and the added range of badmoons and additional ap on 6's is really nice.
gungo wrote: Like most playtesters or most competitive players; goonhammer has no one who actually plays orks competitively giving any analysis… they regularly get things wrong and the rest of the player base takes what they say as gospel.
If you are a competitive 40k player you are not playing orks. Marshal Peterson is doing about the best you can possibly do with orks when you play to the missions and don't make mistakes. 10th place out of 200 is one of the best placings by one of the best ork players means you can't take a GT podium with them. Any mistakes punish more than most armies and in general that is not going to appeal to a competitive player. They tried orks, realized what was there did not work as well for competitive play and moved on.
No, it means he couldn't. On that day, vs those specific opponents, with whatever dice rolls/terrain/etc were involved.
Sorry to interrupt your discussion how is it impossible to be better than 10th with the orks guys, but Luke Newell is 4th on War Calls GT with his goff and ghazzi list now. List:
Nob on Smasha Squig [4 PL, -2CP, 65pts]: 1. Big Killa Boss (Beast Snagga), Big Choppa, Headwoppa's Killchoppa, Slugga, Smasha Squig Jaws, Stratagem: Big Boss [-1CP], Stratagem: Extra Gubbinz [-1CP]
+ HQ [5 PL, -1CP, 105pts] +
Warboss [5 PL, -1CP, 105pts]: 4. Brutal but Kunnin, Attack Squig [5pts], Da Killa Klaw, Kombi-rokkit, Power Klaw [10pts], 2x Slugga, Stikkbombs, Stratagem: Big Boss [-1CP], Trukk Boyz
+ Troops [5 PL, 100pts] +
Boyz [5 PL, 100pts]
. Boss Nob [19pts]: Choppa, Power Klaw [10pts], Stikkbombs
. 9x Ork Boy w/ Slugga & Choppa [81pts]: 9x Choppa, 9x Slugga, 9x Stikkbombs
I was checking the Marshal Peterson list from Seatle US Open and I found another interesting name and results hidden deeper.
Notoriously known Ben Jurek played very similar goff list like Luke here and his results was in first games much better than Marschal Peterson - 100/100/87/68/100/93/91/92 with just a single loss againts Harlequins. If he wins, he could be better than Marschall - and not 17th like he is…
gungo wrote: Like most playtesters or most competitive players; goonhammer has no one who actually plays orks competitively giving any analysis… they regularly get things wrong and the rest of the player base takes what they say as gospel.
If you are a competitive 40k player you are not playing orks. Marshal Peterson is doing about the best you can possibly do with orks when you play to the missions and don't make mistakes. 10th place out of 200 is one of the best placings by one of the best ork players means you can't take a GT podium with them. Any mistakes punish more than most armies and in general that is not going to appeal to a competitive player. They tried orks, realized what was there did not work as well for competitive play and moved on.
No, it means he couldn't. On that day, vs those specific opponents, with whatever dice rolls/terrain/etc were involved.
No, its a very good anecdote which teamed with the plethora of other tournament results combine to form a picture where Orkz just are not a top tier army and are at best around middle tier and at worst...The high end of the lowest tier.
Why you people insist on highlighting our faction negatives, when clearly there are some positives too? You always just stampede anything positive here.
I had a funny game againts new chaos knights vs. my Speed Mob. I 've been crumped like a hell. But lesson learned!
Hell! Some another new meta stuff that is little bit too much!
What I found how to defeat them:
1. You cannot kill them. It is too much! On the other side, they can surely kill youin two turns. So keep heads down! Hide!
2. Their disadventages are
- slow
- big bases
- low model count
3. The small knights are much more dangerous than big ones. Focus all fire on the small ones. Ignore the big ones. Kill small ones ASAP.
4. Block big ones move by sacrificing a buggy or one biker squad per turn in their way to keep them home. Take the secondaries that makes them move to you and troll them with the move blocks.
5. Secondaries:
- Bring it down (12-15 easily)
- Bitz to make him move to you. But he is slow. And you block him in the movement. With a good terrain, you can get to 12Vp
- Engage - you score something, nothing much. Like 8 or something.
6. primaries - with just two big robots on the table (because small are dead) he is unable to score well since T3. Badskull Banner makes another 4VP swing. You can beat them on points something like 80:50 with just a few ork models left hiden behind the ruins.
I would definitely try to practice playing around the house korvax strategem that allows them to move through any terrain or models along as they have enough movemet. Because they can surprise you with that strat.
I would definitely try to practice playing around the house korvax strategem that allows them to move through any terrain or models along as they have enough movemet. Because they can surprise you with that strat.
Ilgoth wrote:Why you people insist on highlighting our faction negatives, when clearly there are some positives too? You always just stampede anything positive here.
I've definitely been one of the doomsayers over the last few months, but I've come full circle again. I'd say we're almost settled back in our little anti-meta niche. Another codex release or two of a sensible power level and I think we'll bounce back.
In terms of Knights, they're the gatekeepers like they've always been. They make you play smart, focussing on scoring points and clever movement rather than trying to hurr-durr moar dakka your way through the immovable object.
There's absolutely no reason why we aren't killing at least one War Dog a turn, if not crippling a second. After that we dance around the big ones and try not to offer them too many opportunities to bring all that damage potential to bear.
Realistically lists are looking to be running two big ones and about seven smaller ones. No one has the damage potential for trying to kill that without tailoring to some degree, so there's no reason we should be trying to do it.
Just lean into our heavy hitters, keep moving, and stay kunnin'
I made some statistics and 5 Boomboyz Koptas and every single wazboom can kill exactly little bit less than a single wardog in the shooting. Dices makes some swing in it and makes you be less effective.
So my list with 2x wazboom + 2x5 koptas + 3 MSJ + 1 SJD can potentialy kill about 4 in shooting + 1 in kopta mortal wound charge.
And that is max I guess ork army can put on the table. In any case, there will be an issue to get all in range in a single turn.
Because after you kill 5 wardogs and get the koptas off the table, the rest of the knights kill both wazbooms and another 1-2 buggies at least if not positioned right.
So in next turn you need to kill another 2 wardogs with 2 kopta squads and the rest of the buggies. Than you are in in the sweet spot you want to be - just 2 huge knights on the table and you score around.
Tomsug wrote: I made some statistics and 5 Boomboyz Koptas and every single wazboom can kill exactly little bit less than a single wardog in the shooting. Dices makes some swing in it and makes you be less effective.
So my list with 2x wazboom + 2x5 koptas + 3 MSJ + 1 SJD can potentialy kill about 4 in shooting + 1 in kopta mortal wound charge.
And that is max I guess ork army can put on the table. In any case, there will be an issue to get all in range in a single turn.
Because after you kill 5 wardogs and get the koptas off the table, the rest of the knights kill both wazbooms and another 1-2 buggies at least if not positioned right.
So in next turn you need to kill another 2 wardogs with 2 kopta squads and the rest of the buggies. Than you are in in the sweet spot you want to be - just 2 huge knights on the table and you score around.
This is without the eventual +1 to hit granted by Freebooterz trait, right?
Yeah, between low model count and Boomboyz koptas there is a low chance to trigger it.
Honestly the count do not change after FB + 1 to hit. You declare all shooting from wazbooms to one target anyway. Just a better chance to finish him for sure
Ilgoth wrote: Why you people insist on highlighting our faction negatives, when clearly there are some positives too? You always just stampede anything positive here.
On the good news I think orks should be getting a small boost with the faction specific secondary revamp coming soon… while our secondary isn’t horrible… it isn’t taken too often and I think it’s in line with a small bump… (but I contend it may also not be touched as it’s not the worst w
Either). I think certain factions such as grey knights and drukari might be getting hit hard though as thier faction secondaries are very strong.
gungo wrote: On the good news I think orks should be getting a small boost with the faction specific secondary revamp coming soon… while our secondary isn’t horrible… it isn’t taken too often and I think it’s in line with a small bump… (but I contend it may also not be touched as it’s not the worst w
Either). I think certain factions such as grey knights and drukari might be getting hit hard though as thier faction secondaries are very strong.
I´ve totally missed this. Where was that announced?
On secondaries and Orks I find 'Grind them Down' to be an issue. Any faction with than can pick fewer tougher units will always have advantage over the swarmier one due to Grind being 3VP whereas the Swarmys options are fewer. E.g. Engage is 2vp and also sacrifices a unit per tick. The balance is off there imo.
I for one hope they give Hunta/Kill rigs Squig keyword and start updating some of the things in our klan kultures that makes no sense. It was brought up to make beastsnagga models good in snakebites yet their transports, the rigs, dont get any damn bonuses lol. Also squiggoths, normal and gargantuan ones. As well as giving the Kannon wagon, wagon keyword. Simply to clean up some of those things that makes no sense in our faction.
Like being able to advance and not get -1 to hit for evil sunz despite most our weapons that were assault are now dakka weapons...
I for one hope they give Hunta/Kill rigs Squig keyword and start updating some of the things in our klan kultures that makes no sense. It was brought up to make beastsnagga models good in snakebites yet their transports, the rigs, dont get any damn bonuses lol. Also squiggoths, normal and gargantuan ones. As well as giving the Kannon wagon, wagon keyword. Simply to clean up some of those things that makes no sense in our faction.
Like being able to advance and not get -1 to hit for evil sunz despite most our weapons that were assault are now dakka weapons...
It's definitely not a good sign when it feels like we need a codex rewrite/update when its been less than a year since our codex has been out.
I for one hope they give Hunta/Kill rigs Squig keyword and start updating some of the things in our klan kultures that makes no sense. It was brought up to make beastsnagga models good in snakebites yet their transports, the rigs, dont get any damn bonuses lol. Also squiggoths, normal and gargantuan ones. As well as giving the Kannon wagon, wagon keyword. Simply to clean up some of those things that makes no sense in our faction.
Like being able to advance and not get -1 to hit for evil sunz despite most our weapons that were assault are now dakka weapons...
It's definitely not a good sign when it feels like we need a codex rewrite/update when its been less than a year since our codex has been out.
yes.
And i just used an experimental list versus thousand sons and death guard. And while i lost both fights (used snakebites in one and deathksulls in another) it just pains me how insanely efficient rubric marines and plague marines are compared to our troop choices despite we paying almost the same amount.
My dedicated close combat boyz, 90 points, couldnt even dent those rubric marines at 105 points. And while they have terrible melee stats, we have terrible defence stats, so any wound is a dead boy.
How can i pay 9 points for a model that can only do melee, yet cant even win in melee? It seems like orks have to play flawless battles to win these days against armor of contempt, at least versus thousand sons and maybe death guard.
The thing thats stupid about the Snakebites making Beastsnaggas better is twofold
1) For whatever reason, its not treated as a bonus for Squig models, its half of the reason to be Snakebite so if you arent on a squig you have half a kulture. Every other kulture has 2 parts to it or benefit both shooting/melee Had it been a third bullet point under their Kulture rules it'd be perfectly fine (perhaps keep the 6+++ on top of the 2 new perks) because when only 3 models in the entire codex actually benefit from a kulture theres kinda no reason to use that kulture.
2) Goff benefits the Squig units just as much if not more than Snakebites, Yeah they lose the Transork rule but being T6 already its largely not that great anyway, considering the entire army gets Goff while only they get the Squig offensive boost.
I dont understand why Squiggoths and Rigs dont have the Squig word.
gungo wrote: On the good news I think orks should be getting a small boost with the faction specific secondary revamp coming soon… while our secondary isn’t horrible… it isn’t taken too often and I think it’s in line with a small bump… (but I contend it may also not be touched as it’s not the worst w
Either). I think certain factions such as grey knights and drukari might be getting hit hard though as thier faction secondaries are very strong.
I´ve totally missed this. Where was that announced?
On secondaries and Orks I find 'Grind them Down' to be an issue. Any faction with than can pick fewer tougher units will always have advantage over the swarmier one due to Grind being 3VP whereas the Swarmys options are fewer. E.g. Engage is 2vp and also sacrifices a unit per tick. The balance is off there imo.
The new chapter approved warzone nephilm in June… will have point changes, reduced starting command points but the biggest change imho will be the changes to faction specific secondaries. Armies like grey knights and drukari show how easy to score faction specific objectives makes those armies have a much better win % then they really should.
“ The book includes secondary objectives for each army in the game, which have been rewritten and balanced against each other. Some are now harder to score, some are easier – and some are completely new. There are even bespoke secondary objectives for armies whose new codexes aren’t out yet, such as Chaos Daemons and Astra Militarum.”
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/05/04/revealed-chapter-approved-kicks-off-a-new-season-of-warhammer-40000/
Ilgoth wrote: Why you people insist on highlighting our faction negatives, when clearly there are some positives too? You always just stampede anything positive here.
Its not highlighting negatives its pointing out reality. I think the Seattle Open Ork player played spectacularly and it shows. But I think his success shows that one of the best players in the game who plays orkz was still unable to place in an event with the current rules.
The Goff Pressure list is a gate keeper army at best right now, the Speed Freak AoR is good but again, gate keeper more than anything else, I think the play to objectives/mortal wound spam list is going to be our top build, and against the top lists its just not enough.
Ilgoth wrote: Why you people insist on highlighting our faction negatives, when clearly there are some positives too? You always just stampede anything positive here.
Its not highlighting negatives its pointing out reality. I think the Seattle Open Ork player played spectacularly and it shows. But I think his success shows that one of the best players in the game who plays orkz was still unable to place in an event with the current rules.
The Goff Pressure list is a gate keeper army at best right now, the Speed Freak AoR is good but again, gate keeper more than anything else, I think the play to objectives/mortal wound spam list is going to be our top build, and against the top lists its just not enough.
That might be true, but do remember that list's like the MW list will pop up. Sure at the moment we have a lot moving parts that do not work. But that does no mean there isn't exactly a way around it. Maybe there is a angle we just haven't taken into consideration.
I am already planning my list's around June changes to CP. I am still a long way, since i am painting and assembling my army. For me I am not concerned, we will come on top, that's the orky way ahaha. But in the mean time, might as well try wacky and different ways to play. You never know.
I think is time we do a bit of cleaning on the tier list, many things changed I think? Also June is probably gonna change a lot too, half cp means less pre game cp to spend and changes army building lists. Just my 2 cents if their worth anything.
I currently don't have the time to manage the first post due to job and family related issues. I also have zero motivation towards doing anything related to orks due to how GW keeps on treating them.
That said, grotrebel did propose an update for the first post, but got zero feedback from anyone, so there's that *shrug*
Its not highlighting negatives its pointing out reality
Your reality. And you are more than welcome to stay in it, but wonder why you try to pull the rest of us in. Asking again - why the need to point it out constantly? Your posts are 60% whine.
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Regarding the first post listings - okay in my opinion? There isnt that much that has changed in terms of unit qualities for example. Maybe Tánkbustas being marked in the yellow is bit harsh considering they do find their space in our common armylists? And Wazbom Blastajet being cyan (frankly feels like blue category to me).
Then Blood Axes kultur being red - I dont know. Someone who has played more blood axes than me can say their weight, but most discussions about it don't seem that negative?
Its not highlighting negatives its pointing out reality
Your reality. And you are more than welcome to stay in it, but wonder why you try to pull the rest of us in. Asking again - why the need to point it out constantly? Your posts are 60% whine.
---------------------------------
Regarding the first post listings - okay in my opinion? There isnt that much that has changed in terms of unit qualities for example. Maybe Tánkbustas being marked in the yellow is bit harsh considering they do find their space in our common armylists? And Wazbom Blastajet being cyan (frankly feels like blue category to me).
Then Blood Axes kultur being red - I dont know. Someone who has played more blood axes than me can say their weight, but most discussions about it don't seem that negative?
Sorry you feel like reality is "whine" Relatively speaking, if Jidmah and I are in agreement on something, its likely the truth since we share very different view points in regards to the meta. Orkz are at the moment Middle Tier at best. Sorry for that dose of reality.
Jidmah wrote: I currently don't have the time to manage the first post due to job and family related issues. I also have zero motivation towards doing anything related to orks due to how GW keeps on treating them.
That said, grotrebel did propose an update for the first post, but got zero feedback from anyone, so there's that *shrug*
I got ya bud… unfortunately we haven’t had a lot of movement since the last chapter approved… so I wouldn’t update anything until the next chapter approved… after that orks will be mostly set for the next 6 months.
Its not highlighting negatives its pointing out reality
Your reality. And you are more than welcome to stay in it, but wonder why you try to pull the rest of us in. Asking again - why the need to point it out constantly? Your posts are 60% whine.
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Regarding the first post listings - okay in my opinion? There isnt that much that has changed in terms of unit qualities for example. Maybe Tánkbustas being marked in the yellow is bit harsh considering they do find their space in our common armylists? And Wazbom Blastajet being cyan (frankly feels like blue category to me).
Then Blood Axes kultur being red - I dont know. Someone who has played more blood axes than me can say their weight, but most discussions about it don't seem that negative?
Sorry you feel like reality is "whine" Relatively speaking, if Jidmah and I are in agreement on something, its likely the truth since we share very different view points in regards to the meta. Orkz are at the moment Middle Tier at best. Sorry for that dose of reality.
Your reality. Quit pulling them out of their's where Ork Boyz are 6ppm with 2 wounds and a +++4.
Nobody says orks are anything but the mid tier. Being a mid tier in W40k is great. Most of the armies (and orks specialy) are mid to gak tier most of the time. Look at any tournament results in last couple of years. 90% of the lists is from about 10 factions. And how many factions is in W40k? About 30-40? So whining about “we are not top tier any more” is a whining. Which is boring.
Nobody says GW created a perfect set of rules . Honestly, there is a general consensus that this edition of ork rules is pretty stupid. Last 8th ed codex was better honestly.
The point is, that there are the people that likes orks and want to play them as good as possible in the current constelation. This is the “Might is right! - Codex Orks 2021 Tactics” discussion. So let' s discuss how to do as much as we can do.
Moaning is boring.
If someone miss to be a top tier, go and play Harleyis or Imperial Guard or whatever.
Jidmahs attitude is right. This is a hobby. If you don' t like how does it currently working, simply skip it for some time and wait.
The point of this thread is "competitive" 40k for orkz. I thoroughly enjoy going to GT's and local events with my orkz, but I go in knowing full well I have little to no chance at the top tables (GTs that is, locals I can usually place in the top 3)
And pointing out that builds people are asking questions about aren't competitive and then giving detailed explanations for why they won't work isn't really "Whining" so much as again "reality".
Someone stated in a competitive mindset that lootas are now competitive thanks to their 2ppm price cut. I pointed out that wasn't the case and broke it down in detail by showing how they stacked up against other factions Auto-cannon equipped units. That isn't whining, its showing reality
Jidmah wrote: I currently don't have the time to manage the first post due to job and family related issues. I also have zero motivation towards doing anything related to orks due to how GW keeps on treating them.
That said, grotrebel did propose an update for the first post, but got zero feedback from anyone, so there's that *shrug*
I got ya bud… unfortunately we haven’t had a lot of movement since the last chapter approved… so I wouldn’t update anything until the next chapter approved… after that orks will be mostly set for the next 6 months.
Yeah I have the updated list for the first page on my laptop, honestly I forgot about it after I posted it a few weeks back but there was no real feedback.
Didn't want to slap it on the first page without proper discussion as it's of course how I see orks rn. (Allthough I tried to add as much of the consens in this thread to it as possible.)
Gonna post it again this week so if anyone wants to add to it feel free to do so.
SemperMortis wrote: The point of this thread is "competitive" 40k for orkz. I thoroughly enjoy going to GT's and local events with my orkz, but I go in knowing full well I have little to no chance at the top tables (GTs that is, locals I can usually place in the top 3)
And pointing out that builds people are asking questions about aren't competitive and then giving detailed explanations for why they won't work isn't really "Whining" so much as again "reality".
Someone stated in a competitive mindset that lootas are now competitive thanks to their 2ppm price cut. I pointed out that wasn't the case and broke it down in detail by showing how they stacked up against other factions Auto-cannon equipped units. That isn't whining, its showing reality
Now you discuss the competitive tactics! No complaints on my side.
Jidmah wrote: I currently don't have the time to manage the first post due to job and family related issues. I also have zero motivation towards doing anything related to orks due to how GW keeps on treating them.
That said, grotrebel did propose an update for the first post, but got zero feedback from anyone, so there's that *shrug*
I got ya bud… unfortunately we haven’t had a lot of movement since the last chapter approved… so I wouldn’t update anything until the next chapter approved… after that orks will be mostly set for the next 6 months.
Yeah I have the updated list for the first page on my laptop, honestly I forgot about it after I posted it a few weeks back but there was no real feedback.
Didn't want to slap it on the first page without proper discussion as it's of course how I see orks rn. (Allthough I tried to add as much of the consens in this thread to it as possible.)
Gonna post it again this week so if anyone wants to add to it feel free to do so.
don’t update it until next month when the new campaign book drops.. w point updates, cp changes and secondary changes orks can get a slight relative boost. Goff rush and speed mob are only a few point adjustments and 1 strong secondary to being competitive again. Both of which I think are possible… I think the noise regarding the fact orks need help is getting loud enough we might see something next chapter approved… I mean if we get a similar boost to what necrons for last chapter approved with massive point reductions and core added to units we will be okay for the next few months.
However, do you think, the comparing of the units based on their stats is really the point?
The more I play 9th ed the more I do not judge the list without the secondaries. I think, in 9th ed the secondaries are the back and bones of any list. You can use honestly almost any units, if they support your plan to score.
Look at the Warboss on Warbike in speed mob. Honestly, i don' t use him to kill anything at all. One goes and troll the opponent with the anti-obsec banner. The second goes around and either score via Homers or Bombs or do a roadblock.
The youtube podcast on Art of War with Marshal Peterson was intersting. He pointed out one aspect on mortal wounds - he said “Bommer is great point per mortal wound unit. But I skipped him, because I cannot aim these wounds. They are spread around, 1-3MW to every unit around. But what does it change? Does it kill anything? No.
Same story like used to be with the eadbutting the Burna Bommer. You did like 15MW but killed nothing….
Automatically Appended Next Post:
gungo wrote: don’t update it until next month when the new campaign book drops.. w point updates, cp changes and secondary changes orks can get a slight relative boost. Goff rush and speed mob are only a few point adjustments and 1 strong secondary to being competitive again. Both of which I think are possible… I think the noise regarding the fact orks need help is getting loud enough we might see something next chapter approved… I mean if we get a similar boost to what necrons for last chapter approved with massive point reductions and core added to units we will be okay for the next few months.
Agree, don' t update.
But don' t expect anything logical. The update will change a lot but my best prediction is totally random impact on our army. Speed Mob could be killed and Snakebites could be the kings and the best list be the mix of Grot tanks, Garg Squig and Mekboy workshop or something….
Some pretty interesting things you can find out when diving down into the data - for example how decent builds are actually somewhat close to 50% winrate, but we suck hard at beating aeldari, nids, tau and... *drum roll* sisters.
Tomsug wrote: However, do you think, the comparing of the units based on their stats is really the point?
The more I play 9th ed the more I do not judge the list without the secondaries. I think, in 9th ed the secondaries are the back and bones of any list. You can use honestly almost any units, if they support your plan to score.
Look at the Warboss on Warbike in speed mob. Honestly, i don' t use him to kill anything at all. One goes and troll the opponent with the anti-obsec banner. The second goes around and either score via Homers or Bombs or do a roadblock.
I couldn´t agree more. Marshall Peterson shows up and says Tankbustas are good and does surprisingly well in a tournament. Then crucially explains tactically why they work for him instead of the irrelevant points comparisons.
His use of Tankbustas is clever and I have had success with them too once I grasped the tactic. The advantage of pin pointing units with mw in a game that often revolves around force multiplying by fairly low wound models is a good observation. Kudos to him.
As long as we treat the game as a series of trades like chess we´re going to get bogged down in the incessant and useless points comparisons. If my Tankbustas nukes that Hospitaller supporting the Sister advance which allows my Manz and Boyz to duke it out longer in the middle I´m fine. That allowed my Grotz behind them to tick Primaries/Green Tide/Bannerpoints in the meanwhile.
Some pretty interesting things you can find out when diving down into the data - for example how decent builds are actually somewhat close to 50% winrate, but we suck hard at beating aeldari, nids, tau and... *drum roll* sisters.
Some pretty interesting things you can find out when diving down into the data - for example how decent builds are actually somewhat close to 50% winrate, but we suck hard at beating aeldari, nids, tau and... *drum roll* sisters.
Trying to wrap my head around 9th list building real quick. So in a 2000 point list 1xBattalion 2xSHAux. I only start the game with 6CP? Kinda rough...
TTT playing Deathskulls vs Drukhari tonight with the mw strategy. Tankbustas in BWs, Squighogs, Kommandos with Squigbombs. Pity Adrians rolls are atrocious and I think is missing the point of sniping the characters. Otherwise interesting to see it in action.
Scactha wrote: TTT playing Deathskulls vs Drukhari tonight with the mw strategy. Tankbustas in BWs, Squighogs, Kommandos with Squigbombs. Pity Adrians rolls are atrocious and I think is missing the point of sniping the characters. Otherwise interesting to see it in action.
The squad of 3 obsec nob bikerz aren't that bad... I know they aren't as good as normal bikers but they allowed me to steal objectives and score engage easily especially with drive by dakka. I used the 3 squads of 6 bikes to score RnD.
I paid 2 CP to put the wazbomm and one 6 man bike squad into reserve which meant the bike squad popped out t3 to RnD.
BBK boss on bike is now a must for me. I used him and a 6 man deffkopta squad to kill one Questor knight T1 and then used fly into the sun on the deffkoptas leaving the boss exposed. I should have just accepted the loss of those deffkoptas as the bbk boss tears into knights whose cc is not great.
The 3 deffkoptas are always fun and fast and if you use terrain well they can take some serious wounds off knights from behind obscuring.
Not quite on this list but not low enough to be called bad are both Ork Secondaries, Stomp Em Good (7.3) and Get Da Good Bitz (7.0).
Average score is 8 and Stomp Em Good is quite a surprise for me. But yes, I play Speedwaagh, so it' s definitely not my choice
This is interesting since Gw claims they revamped all the faction specific secondaries to balance them in the new campaign book… I have a feeling it’s going to be a major shake up to factions… I feel bad for factions like greyknights which has the strongest secondary in game but is equally as screwed by anti psycher secondaries which I doubt get changed. (Or knights w Titan slayer)…. I mean with a good balance to the strongest secondary missions most of the competitive meta seems like they are going to get hit… but somehow necrons are up in that top list (poor guys)…
Regarding orks it’s not just about the fact they are only slightly below average but thier rate of usage is extremely low which means not only is the secondary not good but it’s extremely niche and out performed by standard missions most of the time. They are only somewhat effective when you build around them.
Unsurprising and tbh better than them sharing more bad takes on the faction that misleads people into thinking we're in a better spot than we really are.
Dendarien wrote: Not a single mention of Orks in the Goonhammer article today.
They described pretty well in their secondary objectives articles, "Not quite (good) enough to place, but not bad enough to make bottom list" (and quality for pity buffs, like guard or... for some reason, marines).
For Orks to make a dent in the big dogs it requires the stars align with the right build, right players, right opponents, right terrain and right mision.
The unicorn army that either hits the meta *just* right, or moves around it entirely, all comers lists need not apply.
Jidmah wrote: I think it's rather clear that the competitive players giving advice to GW have nerfed orks to exactly where they want them.
If that was true it would be a shame to do that ! And i would be shocked :x
People get really upset when Orks become meta or are generally successful and start calling for nerfs.
Historically we've been the anti-meta faction that skews in the opposite direction to everyone else and capitalizes on the opponent just not having the tools to deal with it. Old school green tide, Kan Wall and even the initial Buggy/Jet spam of this edition are generally good examples.
We're now firmly in the "gatekeeper" stage with our Speedmob, Goff and Squigbomb lists, keeping the lower half of the meta somewhat in check and occasionally spooking the meta chasers.
Dunno. The 9x artillery spam was NPE. There´s always the issue with games where killing is to close to winning that as soon something breaks the mould in a good way everyone pick MAX of them and boredom ensues for the rest of the field.
Designers should learn to hand that risk rather than keep rebalancing for ever. Wincons should be divorced more from the fighting part for example. Then the balancing isn´t that much of an issue but the neckbeards can still destroy their opponents guys (although they didn't necessarily win the match)
Yeah, Competitive Innovations became pretty boring in last few issues. Bugs and Eldars, nothing more. Someone tolds me there is about 30-40 factions in warhammer. Have you seen some of them recently? Like for example… some space marines? These used to be pretty much the core of the game. Isn' t it?
There is however one interesting moment in.ast CI. The begining of the article - “there was never so much competitive warhammer. Never so much GTs, never so much players”
And I have to ask - if there is a boom in competitive playing, what the competitive people do? Play the strongest faction to win?
The best players I face on TTS (with one necron exception) switching the armies regularly. Well, there is dude from Rome and I never faced him with the same faction twice.
It seems to be like old “I play FACTION” switched to “I play Warhammer + use any army that wins”.
This could accent the stats. Why play 5% sub faction?
I gonna filtre down the “ork winners” from last year and check what armies they playing now.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Holy Gork and Mork! I ' ve an idea!
The crucial quality of orks as faction is our adaptability. Now, I found the the best way how to deal with the shifting meta!
Call it a Da Proppa Snakebite Old Way!
Automatically Appended Next Post: In such style we can occupy almost any faction. Maybe I gonna make a Da Proppa Chaos Knight Waaagh!
Jidmah wrote: I think it's rather clear that the competitive players giving advice to GW have nerfed orks to exactly where they want them.
If that was true it would be a shame to do that ! And i would be shocked :x
i wouldnt. it has happened before. Any time something marginally good happens for orks it has to be removed instantly. Just look at how fast we were destroyed after our codex dropped compared to something like Admech or Drukhari.
Jidmah wrote: I think it's rather clear that the competitive players giving advice to GW have nerfed orks to exactly where they want them.
If that was true it would be a shame to do that ! And i would be shocked :x
Most of the well known professional competitive players (even the groups) don’t play orks or even have enough models to field most competitive lists.. the only exceptions to this is manny in the uk and and nick navanti who is more a chaos player.. Matt root was a successful ork player back in 7-8th as well… no one else not even the known playtesters even play orks…
That single grand tournament at socal by orks had the biggest freak out ever seen in the game by an army with a codex that was 3+ months old and a 55% win rate ever.. it was so insane GW for the first time ever did an emergency errata 1 week later to specifically nerf orks (the other 2 army nerfs of ad mech and drukari weren’t even nerfs but early point adjustment release of chapter approved). This was specifically an ork nerf. That’s insane… that never happens… but the backlash from the competitive players about orks winning was so intense GW reacted. Take from that history what you wish but not even some of the most busted armies ever like 8th Ed iron hands or 70% win rate 9th Ed books ever got nerfed so hard and quickly…
Maybe it´s something that Orks is a hassle to paint, numerous models, randomness built in and has zero cross faction applicability that makes the "pros" reject it. There´s some psychological hindrance there.
Scactha wrote: Maybe it´s something that Orks is a hassle to paint, numerous models, randomness built in and has zero cross faction applicability that makes the "pros" reject it. There´s some psychological hindrance there.
Most of that wasn't really true for the lists which got nerfed into the ground though.
I think it's more of an issue that your regular marine/eldar/tau skills that have been trained up for years simply don't apply to orks and frustrates them.
Scactha wrote: Maybe it´s something that Orks is a hassle to paint, numerous models, randomness built in and has zero cross faction applicability that makes the "pros" reject it. There´s some psychological hindrance there.
Most of that wasn't really true for the lists which got nerfed into the ground though.
I think it's more of an issue that your regular marine/eldar/tau skills that have been trained up for years simply don't apply to orks and frustrates them.
Yeah, for vehicle heavy skew lists that Orks have, painting usually isn't an issue since the expectation for slapdash paintjobs kind of work towards an Ork army aesthetic. The main problem is that, as Jidmah mentioned, contrary to popular belief, Orks aren't a "hurr durr" point and click army when it comes to steamrolling enemy armies. Unlike Marines/Eldar/Tau, we lack reroll mechanics or durability shenanigans that those factions can pull from stuff like overlapping strats/abilities to make units super killy or super hard to kill. Our army just has a very large margin for error, especially at the list building stage. We're not an army you can just grab a few combat patrols of and expect to be competitive. Since Ork lists are so particular in working in tandem with one another we rely on redundancy a lot more than other armies, it means that any significant changes to any unit sends ripples out in our internal balance that impacts us a lot more than other armies when they receive nerfs.
It also doesn't help that 40k meme culture has propagated the idea that Orks are just the "wacky and goofy" faction to the detriment of how they actually play on the tabletop, so that some people legitimately feel offended when their snowflake space marine army can't curbstomp them there like they do in the fluff.
Scactha wrote: Maybe it´s something that Orks is a hassle to paint, numerous models, randomness built in and has zero cross faction applicability that makes the "pros" reject it. There´s some psychological hindrance there.
Most of that wasn't really true for the lists which got nerfed into the ground though.
I think it's more of an issue that your regular marine/eldar/tau skills that have been trained up for years simply don't apply to orks and frustrates them.
Psychological hindrance yes. That´s what I was after with cross faction applicability. Orks are annoying because they don´t play normal. Better they just get relegated into comic relief role.
Afrodactyl wrote: Yeah, we're definitely the comic relief faction if there ever was one. So when we start winning all hell breaks loose.
Orks might get some silly lore now and then, but for each silly bit there's like a dozen of Orks being legitimately terrifying.
Sadly, the only parts that usually get highlighted by those in the community are the ones where it's silly, rather than the glimpses of raw brutality that we saw in some of the Beast Arises series (another wasted opportunity on GW's part).
Doesn't help that in video games, they tend to skew towards the silly end of Orks, as well as us be the initial "bad guy" that's swapped out in favour of Chaos or Nids as the final boss at the end.
Yikes, according to the recent rumours for the new Nephilim Chapter Approved changes to CP, we are not only halving to 6 CP to start (and 1 CP per player turn), but we no longer get free relic/WL trait at the start of the game, we have to pay starting CP for it.Yikes, that is some BAD news. Especially for armies like Orks that rely on good relics for our herohammer, this not only makes taking multiple warbosses a pain in the arse, but making them even more CP intensive than they already are? Whelp, guess more Tempest of War it is for me, what a joke.
Grimskul wrote: Yikes, according to the recent rumours for the new Nephilim Chapter Approved changes to CP, we are not only halving to 6 CP to start (and 1 CP per player turn), but we no longer get free relic/WL trait at the start of the game, we have to pay starting CP for it.Yikes, that is some BAD news. Especially for armies like Orks that rely on good relics for our herohammer, this not only makes taking multiple warbosses a pain in the arse, but making them even more CP intensive than they already are? Whelp, guess more Tempest of War it is for me, what a joke.
Yes, this is the first thought I had, these changes seems very bad for orks, with 6 cp it is impossible to take 3 warbosses with relics and WL traits, speedfreaks need more than other orcks lists of stratagems, I don't know for sure we have to completely rethink the lists,
but while I think it's probably the right way to fix the game, because it mitigates the abuse of stratagems, I also think this is the headstone for the orks codex because it was poorly conceived.
Grimskul wrote: Yikes, according to the recent rumours for the new Nephilim Chapter Approved changes to CP, we are not only halving to 6 CP to start (and 1 CP per player turn), but we no longer get free relic/WL trait at the start of the game, we have to pay starting CP for it.Yikes, that is some BAD news. Especially for armies like Orks that rely on good relics for our herohammer, this not only makes taking multiple warbosses a pain in the arse, but making them even more CP intensive than they already are? Whelp, guess more Tempest of War it is for me, what a joke.
With starting CP being halved and me having to pay for my initial relic and trait, my list starts with a whopping 0CP. My list only has two detachments and thus two warbosses, and one of those bosses doesn't have a trait because I want the CP for the few strats I do actually use. In an ideal world I would have three detachments for three bosses and they would all be tooled up. My list is already not ideal for these reasons.
I would say it's very realistic that most competitive Ork lists now are illegal, just by virtue of not having the CP to exist.
I'm calling Orks going to the very bottom of the meta withing two weeks of the Nephilim release. People will be leaving the faction in droves for being near unplayable in the current meta, and the diehard few will struggle to keep their heads above water.
I seriously, seriously hope that the initial trait and relic costing CP is BS.
Grimskul wrote: Yikes, according to the recent rumours for the new Nephilim Chapter Approved changes to CP, we are not only halving to 6 CP to start (and 1 CP per player turn), but we no longer get free relic/WL trait at the start of the game, we have to pay starting CP for it.Yikes, that is some BAD news. Especially for armies like Orks that rely on good relics for our herohammer, this not only makes taking multiple warbosses a pain in the arse, but making them even more CP intensive than they already are? Whelp, guess more Tempest of War it is for me, what a joke.
We simply have the gakky dataslates that needs relics, traits, kustom jobs and strategems to work. If this rummor is true (and it seems it is), than we are without significant changes really doomed.
Grimskul wrote: Yikes, according to the recent rumours for the new Nephilim Chapter Approved changes to CP, we are not only halving to 6 CP to start (and 1 CP per player turn), but we no longer get free relic/WL trait at the start of the game, we have to pay starting CP for it.Yikes, that is some BAD news. Especially for armies like Orks that rely on good relics for our herohammer, this not only makes taking multiple warbosses a pain in the arse, but making them even more CP intensive than they already are? Whelp, guess more Tempest of War it is for me, what a joke.
Yeah, I've already run a couple of games with these changes in mind. Tried to field a single battallion with no more than 2CPs invested pre-game, a pretty typical Goffs army. Of course single warboss. I've done terribly both times but I'm used to play Freebooterz speedwaaagh based lists which are extremely different so it might just be me, in part at least. It seems it's time to max out the elites, which is something I've never done with orks.
Also I have no idea about the impact those changes will have on some other armies, except on my second force which is Space Wolves and anyting similar. They can easily ignore those upcoming changes, just like many SM armies I think or any faction that doesn't need multiple detachments and pre-game strats to work.
This feels like a move not intended to balance the game but to push people into fielding SCHQs instead of generic ones which aren't as reliant on relics and WLTs to perform well (the ones worth considering anyways). As in, this is a sales tactic and not a game balance move.
Grimskul wrote: Yikes, according to the recent rumours for the new Nephilim Chapter Approved changes to CP, we are not only halving to 6 CP to start (and 1 CP per player turn), but we no longer get free relic/WL trait at the start of the game, we have to pay starting CP for it.Yikes, that is some BAD news. Especially for armies like Orks that rely on good relics for our herohammer, this not only makes taking multiple warbosses a pain in the arse, but making them even more CP intensive than they already are? Whelp, guess more Tempest of War it is for me, what a joke.
Yeah, I've already run a couple of games with these changes in mind. Tried to field a single battallion with no more than 2CPs invested pre-game, a pretty typical Goffs army. Of course single warboss. I've done terribly both times but I'm used to play Freebooterz speedwaaagh based lists which are extremely different so it might just be me, in part at least. It seems it's time to max out the elites, which is something I've never done with orks.
Also I have no idea about the impact those changes will have on some other armies, except on my second force which is Space Wolves and anyting similar. They can easily ignore those upcoming changes, just like many SM armies I think or any faction that doesn't need multiple detachments and pre-game strats to work.
Changes to be confirmed, it doesn't look good for us.
Pretty bad already, played this week against 1k sons. New marine armour rule plus dust armour is insane, add cover and basically you need ap-3 to start reducing their save.
Their termis on cover are unshiftable. Wazboom with -3ap only takes them down to 3+ save.
Lately I have been playing freebota AoR but with WTC tables is a nightmare to handle. Would like to play more offensive to CC but we lack real shock troops, closest are meganobs with compare badly to termis.
Same here. Playing against TS or deathwing is just no fun, you have to into extreme lengths to actually kill single squads and even BBK warboss with kill klaw just bounces of terminators with little to nothing to show for its investment.
I actually switched in a beastboss for my buggy list now, because a speedwaaagh is just a waste of time in a marine-heavy meta.
Jidmah wrote: Same here. Playing against TS or deathwing is just no fun, you have to into extreme lengths to actually kill single squads and even BBK warboss with kill klaw just bounces of terminators with little to nothing to show for its investment.
I actually switched in a beastboss for my buggy list now, because a speedwaaagh is just a waste of time in a marine-heavy meta.
Problem is, not even buggies give some sort of feeling of return to investment. Rukkatrukk dead. Sanzzwagon dead. Dragstas dead. KBB okeyish. Scrapjests okeysish again due to rokkit being ap2.
Koptas are only good if boomboys on AoR, otherwise, expensive.
Bikers on paper are good, but ap 0-1 makes them irrelevant outside of trade units.
Overall, the biggest drag is throwing 60 dices for 1 sad wound. It feels aweful .
In my experience snazzwagon and scrapjet are pretty much on the same level, SJD is still decent because of its primary weapon and the saws.
Koptas are still OK because their high rate of fire, but they simply can't kill terminators anymore because AoC halved number of unsaved wounds against such units - which essentially leaves me with no units that can target terminators efficiently besides a 200 point flier.
Warbikers have become completely useless to me - I replaced all of them with squig riders.
However, the result isn't really an army that can win against players on the same level as me. I'll play around with goff a bit, but since their list really doesn't fit my playstyle, I'll probably be placing a lot of DG until something changes. Orks are just now fun right now :(
Afrodactyl wrote: For us to stay relevant, I think it's going to be MW spam from here on in.
We just don't have the firepower anymore otherwise.
Not really an option for me - I played a list very similar to the one in the tournament, but not only doesn't it work too well other missions types, it also very much leaves a "feels bad" taste with the opponents when you essentially cripple their army by spamming a badly though-out piece of wargear to delete all their characters and durable elites.
With our troops choices being so lackluster, and us being so reliant on multiple bosses, and our FA and Elites slots, I don't see how we reasonably run a force that's a single battalion that can still compete.
I'm honestly just considering starting every game with 0CP and hoping for the best.
Jidmah wrote: Goff can probably get away with kill/hunta rigs and beast snaggas boyz, as those are the only troops which can at least somewhat put a dent in things.
My Trukkboys are just something to provide a ride for my Dakka Mek, otherwise they're a fast moving speedbump
I'll admit, Goff Snaggas are fairly good if they get to charge.
I'm definitely just bitter at this point. All these boys I've accrued over the years and no decent way of using them.
Most of the matches I would rather use blood axes than goffs. Goffs used to be overkill, while BA allows for retreat and charge (forget about cover). Most opponents can't screen effectively back units when all your army can disengage at will.
Also, it is the clan with more strats and they redeployment trait can sometimes save bad deployment choices, sad it was change to before the roll as most armies with similar rules do it after.
Yeah, I think that's the greatest sin for all the changes we've been hit with in 9th. If things were largely left alone with minor changes like the flyer restriction and shifting the buggies to being 3 models max per buggy type in an army, it would have been fine, because we at least had different army archetypes besides just Green Tide (as much as I would like that to be viable, even if its a different format). But things have just been snowballing with blanket meta-warping changes like AoC, the restrictions from having multi-klan armies, and now the CP alterations to making Orks feel like we're playing with both arms tied behind our backs. Half the time most of our games are us desperately trying to score objectives before dying and getting either tabled or crushed, which really doesn't reflect any kind of Orky playstyle. We don't have the durability, nor the numbers, nor the killiness anymore. I'm about ready for a new edition and our codex isn't even a full year old yet!
1. GW made us in last few years 2 new codexes and couple of extension books. Plus they gave us a tons of new models
- 4 brand new buggies + watrike
- New boyz + new snagga boyz
- Bunch of new characters most of them was not on the table yet
- new huge Killrigs
- brand new type of unit - squig cavalry in all range - boy riders, nob character and squig boss in 2 variations.
- re-edition of Kommandos and Deffkoptas
That is a lot guys. That is a lot of work, money, pation and love someone in GW gave us in last few years.
There are some competitive pricks who do not respect orks. That is right. But say GW ignore orks is a fail.
2. Blood Axes are now the only Clan having much more thanks to some extra book. Why just a single clan? Especialy, why not the Snakebites? Make a whole new range of the models in Snakebite style and no extension for them?
3. GW is company doing business. This business has a logic. If you invest the money and work to something, you want the money back.
There was a new codex in 8th with the new buggies. It was November 2018. First wave of “buy buggies because they are new!” What makes Buggies great on the table was Saga of the Beast - March 2020. So call it year and half. That was another wave of “buy buggies” becuase it was fine to play them. And than summer 2021 - almost year and half too - and the new codex for even more buggies + half year later comes the Speedwaaagh. These were 3(4) waves of motivation to buy a new buggies.
This is how to sell the new models.
Now there are the Dynos. Sorry, squigs.
How to sell them?
Criple them to be unplayable?
Hardly.
We are in Stage 1 - buy because “new”. The fact we are pretty doomed in June2022 is just temporary situation that can last few months.
My prediction is some extension for squigs comming to our hands like a year and half after release of the Beast Snagga Box = winter 2022 = Stage 2
And than another with the new codex somewhere 2023-24 = Stage 3
We will be +/- competitive for another two years with some ups and downs at least. And some rule feth-ups of course.
Than comes the “paint the stompas time” with nothing for us that will last like a 3 years to makes us to buy another army to be competitive. Like Tau or Imperial Guard suffered recently and Space Marines suffers now.
And than again for another 40.000 years….
That is the power of the money.
Some my tip for now is keep calm, practice and paint the squigs.
Orks primarily have spammed AP1 and/or 2D weapons for our "powerful units" rather than hitting harder with fewer attacks.
The spammed -1 damage mechanic alone pissed me off, felt like unless it was a KMB or Rokkit it didnt do anything without forcing 15+ saves for a medium health target.
The marine bs made me not even wanna play orks anymore, since 90% of my opponents were affected by that buff.
Feel like without practically buying a whole new army i only have 3-4 units that have better than AP1 weapons outside of the random PK nob.
Vineheart01 wrote: Orks primarily have spammed AP1 and/or 2D weapons for our "powerful units" rather than hitting harder with fewer attacks. The spammed -1 damage mechanic alone pissed me off, felt like unless it was a KMB or Rokkit it didnt do anything without forcing 15+ saves for a medium health target.
The marine bs made me not even wanna play orks anymore, since 90% of my opponents were affected by that buff. Feel like without practically buying a whole new army i only have 3-4 units that have better than AP1 weapons outside of the random PK nob.
Pretty much, we've always been pigeonholed into the "quantity over quality" for a lot of our weapons (nothing wrong with that if it actually made up for our bad BS), and up until 8th, the power klaw was really one of our only "quality" weapons that we were able to sneak in. Now that's been outpaced by the arms race of weapons and damage reduction abilities.
Vineheart01 wrote: Orks primarily have spammed AP1 and/or 2D weapons for our "powerful units" rather than hitting harder with fewer attacks.
The spammed -1 damage mechanic alone pissed me off, felt like unless it was a KMB or Rokkit it didnt do anything without forcing 15+ saves for a medium health target.
The marine bs made me not even wanna play orks anymore, since 90% of my opponents were affected by that buff.
Feel like without practically buying a whole new army i only have 3-4 units that have better than AP1 weapons outside of the random PK nob.
Pretty much, we've always been pigeonholed into the "quantity over quality" for a lot of our weapons (nothing wrong with that if it actually made up for our bad BS), and up until 8th, the power klaw was really one of our only "quality" weapons that we were able to sneak in. Now that's been outpaced by the arms race of weapons and damage reduction abilities.
I found that with Freebooterz and Speedwaaagh a shooting oriented army can really deal a lot of damage with their improved BS and AP. Such lists rely on tons of CPs though: they need to burn at least 3 CPs for an outrider, a few CPs for additional relics/traits and then to save up a few other CPs for exploding the KFF and for the cloud of smoke stratagem to make the units hold the first turn and be not too crippled when the speedwaaagh is triggered.
The power klaws have been completely re-written. They used to be a tool to instant kill stuff even with a single blow, now they slightly increase the damage output of a unit.
I really don't see us triggering freebootas against a marine army - if everything is in cover, you are looking at shooting half your army into a squad before downing anything.
Killing a 3-5 man squad with 1-2 wazboms and 1-2 KMKs can be done pretty easily. It doesn't take more than 500 points of stuff, but it can be done with less. Even if they are SM. Most other stuff, like squads of sororitas or aeldari are easier to kill. I think custodes are much harder to kill, even without AoC.
And later in the game enemy units could be reduced in number so easier to kill, although there are also orks casualties to consider.
Vineheart01 wrote: Orks primarily have spammed AP1 and/or 2D weapons for our "powerful units" rather than hitting harder with fewer attacks.
The spammed -1 damage mechanic alone pissed me off, felt like unless it was a KMB or Rokkit it didnt do anything without forcing 15+ saves for a medium health target.
The marine bs made me not even wanna play orks anymore, since 90% of my opponents were affected by that buff.
Feel like without practically buying a whole new army i only have 3-4 units that have better than AP1 weapons outside of the random PK nob.
Totaly agree except “marines made me not even wanna play orks” and thanks for the evidence my contemplation about basic mechanic driving the destiny of our rules is obviously right and works well
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jidmah wrote: I really don't see us triggering freebootas against a marine army - if everything is in cover, you are looking at shooting half your army into a squad before downing anything.
Non Speed-Mob Freeboota army in da old style (autumn 2021) where you need to trigger +1 to hit to do something was the most stupid and annoying list I played in last couple of years. It was de-facto sitting castle that was mostly imobile (because 10-12” with buggy base and squad of more than 1 buggy definitely cannot be called “speedwaagh” - the “blocked-by-the-corner-waagh” is better) and need to sit together to have the KFF aura to have some invu.
You said when the new codex came out, that agiants some armies it will be pain to trogger it. Now, the situation is even more dramatic.
That is the reason, why I believe the only fun way how to play buggies is the Speed Mob.
The Speed Mob army rely on two basic tactics. Shoot what can be killed and roadblock what cannot be killed. Speedmob is pretty good in both - shooting and roadblocking. Mostly because his “free advance” and inbuilt invu. That shoot it' s mobility to the stars.
I agree that triggering Freeboota +1 to hit is sometimes pretty hard. Especialy, if your main anti-AOC weapon are Boomboyz Deffkoptas that cannot trigger it. But in Speedmob, it is not such an issue, because
- no more than two planes can benefit. If yout take some…
- you take Freebootas becuase the banner, that makes a swing of 3-6 VP (= 6-12VP difference) every game.
I’m not that pessimistic yet.. want to see new secondaries and point changes… I think orks might get some slight love… I don’t expect us to be anywhere winning tournaments again but it’s pretty bad right now being one of if not the worst 9th edition codex and only ~3 armies left that need a new 9th codex
I' m actually very optimistic too. The reason is very simple. I know what is the immediata future of Speedwaagh - Nobz on bikes!
The reason? Simple!
I' ve got a great idea how to convert them from regular bikers. I gonna makes them like Rey' s speeder but the esthetic of the front engine part will be more like an old farm tractor incl. Small “chimney” and two lights. That will be great!
I am also positive as well. While i have no doubts it will change how we build list, the Free relic/WLT is big.
It will also curb armies that have super turns by dumping mass CP. So our stuff won't pop as easily.
On the other hand i am concerned with the CP from psychic interrogation, considering our leadership we can be farmed with some ease.
Another thing that comes to mind is BA are more interesting as a kulture for those that like CP.
The last bit is my prediction, a bit grain of salt, but i believe the biggest winners will be armies with abilities backed in that do not need CP, i hear Ultramarines have tons of that but i know nothing of the hummies.
Forceride wrote:It will also curb armies that have super turns by dumping mass CP. So our stuff won't pop as easily.
Snip
The last bit is my prediction, a bit grain of salt, but i believe the biggest winners will be armies with abilities backed in that do not need CP, i hear Ultramarines have tons of that but i know nothing of the hummies.
This is definitely going to be the case. On one side we won't be getting wombo-comboed any more, but on the other side the armies that don't need to combo will get way stronger.
Beardedragon wrote:Right. So i went to a team GT with a goff pressure list.
Needless to say, i wont be doing that again any time soon. Yikes.
Got my ass handed to me.
What was your list? And what were your match ups like?
Forceride wrote:It will also curb armies that have super turns by dumping mass CP. So our stuff won't pop as easily.
Snip
The last bit is my prediction, a bit grain of salt, but i believe the biggest winners will be armies with abilities backed in that do not need CP, i hear Ultramarines have tons of that but i know nothing of the hummies.
This is definitely going to be the case. On one side we won't be getting wombo-comboed any more, but on the other side the armies that don't need to combo will get way stronger.
Beardedragon wrote:Right. So i went to a team GT with a goff pressure list.
Needless to say, i wont be doing that again any time soon. Yikes.
Got my ass handed to me.
What was your list? And what were your match ups like?
Ill be putting the list and match ups in spoilers below. My list was:
Spoiler:
Goff. Warboss on warbike, BBK and da killa klaw Ghaz, warlord Makari 10x Grots with orrible gits 3x 10 Kommandos w powerklaw. 2 bomb squigs. 3x 10 Stormboyz 3x 3 Deffkoptas 2x 4 Squig riders, 2 bomb squigs Battlewagon, barebone for transporting and making ghaz survive a bit longer.
Play through:
Spoiler:
The first battle was against a new dude who had his tyranid codex for 1 week. I got a 20-0 so sure. not much to say really. Next battle was against a DG drone heavy + FW drone heavy list so many vehicles. I won and i wont know if i would have won in general, because he was ill so i won automatically without playing that battle.
But the next 3 battles is where it became more interesting.
Battle 3 was against Drukhari with a less focus on infantry running out to kill me and a bigger focus on driving around some shooty elves in the raiders as well as some shooty raiders/ravagers. I lost that one pretty hard, 0-20. The 2x2 Cronos units were.. absolutely brutal and the shooting was enough to put 20 kommandos and 15 stormboyz out of commision. To my mistake i didnt put my army enough out of line of sight because he said he barely had any shooting (which clearly was a lie looking at what happened).
Battle 4 was against Genestealer cults and i have never fought against them before. I think i could have won if i knew what i was doing, but a close combat oriented army going up against genestealers without fully understanding their mechanics wont be pretty. Also ghaz and warboss on warbike did almost nothing to those terminator ish genestealers with hammers with their -1 damage, 5++ and 5+++. So that kind of sucked. 0-20 loss.
Battle 5 was against one of the best players in my country and a person ive played a few times before (i sucked but my team got a 5th out of 10th regardless). He played a meta tyranid army with harpies.. and well i knew i would lose and i could soften the blow by being defensive and going for maybe banners but i still attempted to go for a win, which didnt work. 2x harpies, flying tyrant, foot slogging tyrant, malaceptor, exocrine etc. another 0-20.
All in all i dont feel like i HAD to lose against drukhari nor genestealer cults. I think i could have won. Knowledge wins many battles, and i have only fought drukhari once, and genestealers zero times, so i had very little knowledge against those two. And Tyranids, well the only time ive fought against the new codex was the opening battle that day against the new player i tabled. But i feel like my list lacks units that i can find acceptable to lose. I had kind of told my self that trukk boy mega nobz wouldnt be too good, because it was easy to shut down the trukk and make them kultureless and footslogging, and even afterwards they have too many misses by hitting on 4s, but maybe trukkboy MANZ are still good i dont know. I feel generally that tyranids pay around 30% too little for their units, and i pay 30% too much for mine. Like in the tyranid match up, there were 10 hormagaunts, 5 or so genestealers, and 2x 10 gargoyles + 3 warriors. This was not difficult to remove but it was standing in the way, forcing me to go through them, just to be counter charged afterwards. While i killed the first genestealers turn 1, i had to move up to get to his frontline turn 2, which gave him 1 turn of destroying my units before getting there. And after i had chewed through that frontline with me charging most of it (failing to kill the warriors with what little i had left of the first initial charge), i was killed in return by the monsters just charging from the backline or psychic powers or shot off the table. Unlike tyranids, i dont feel like we have a codex where we can send in chaff, and then come with heavy hitters like monster bugs. I feel like if i had had 40 extra beast snagga boyz then maybe this would seem like a fair battle but alas.
The one unit i do feel like pulled their weight when i didnt get them killed by not being obscurred by shooting or what, was my squig riders. They did well. 4 of them with +1 to wound took down a malaceptor so that was neat. However, i rolled mostly 2s on the bomb squigs in general so i didnt really get anything out of them as they constantly missed. I think out of all the 4 games i played, i threw maybe 9 squig bombs, and 6 of those were 2+.
And while Deffkoptas in a speedfreeks army is really invaluable, and ive had decent success with them in this match up as well, i feel like, if you get hit by -1 to hit (and there was a lot of that), then hitting on those 6s with rokkits essentially results in me getting 1-2 hits out of every volley from each unit, which tended to result in no damage at all. And we used WTC styled terrain i believe, so we had a lot of dense terrain (more than i recall from my last tournament).
The deffkoptas when i use it in a goff style tends to die the turn after they are deployed (they always started in deepstrike), and a leadership of 6 on both those and squig riders should honestly be considered some kind of mistake. Would it really kill GW to give squig riders leadership 7 and the same for deffkoptas? I mean you DO pay 50 points per deffkopta. How many other armies lose 100 points to morale? We do by rolling a 6 and 1 because 1 deffkopta died.. Ghaz, while being great at my single player GT last time, didnt really do much this time around. In fact, it sounds stupid but my warboss on warbike was also kind of out played. Both him and ghaz had a hard time finding proper targets due to the amount of terrain on the table. It was easy for my opponents to just block off entrances, and everytime i cracked open one entrance and awaited my boss on bike or ghaz to enter my turn after, another unit had just taken the place of the dead ones before.
The over all problem with my list was that being goffs, i had a focus on kill games, and my enemy, whether they had a decent focus on CC or not, still had plenty of shooting to force me to come to him. that tended to give him around 2 rounds of shooting which my list just cant take.
I am fully open for suggestions to making a better Goff pressure list because i seem to be a bit out of ideas. WHAT exactly encompasses a good goff pressure list? Whats the best one currently meta wise? Because i feel like im leaning towards the speed freeks kind of play style here.
The over all problem with my list was that being goffs, i had a focus on kill games, and my enemy, whether they had a decent focus on CC or not, still had plenty of shooting to force me to come to him. that tended to give him around 2 rounds of shooting which my list just cant take.
I am fully open for suggestions to making a better Goff pressure list because i seem to be a bit out of ideas. WHAT exactly encompasses a good goff pressure list? Whats the best one currently meta wise? Because i feel like im leaning towards the speed freeks kind of play style here.
I don't think there's much to do until we get some of AoC like buff (whatever that is), or massive points drops.
We just don't have enough stuff to fight good armies, and our shooting is too gimpable unless you go 2000 points of it. But it's very hard to win some matchups without a good shooting phase.
This will just get worse in the Nephilim pack. Herohammer for Orks is done, and good luck bringing multiple detachments to get those sweet, sweet FA slots.
Just have fun. C tier army isn't going to win many games.
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