Without free kustom jobs I see even less reasons to take speedmob/waaagh. It’s basically go goff pressure or go home. I’m not saying this because of massive jumps in power for those units but frankly I wouldn’t take squigbuggies without a free nitrosquig. I wouldn’t take shokk gun without a free runtsucka. Etc etc
One weird note here. I used trukk nobs (5 double choppas, 5 big choppa/choppa) for the giggles in 2 different match ups, and while i fought against 2 armies in which my loadout kinda sucked (DG and imperial knights) they actually werent too bad. The damage was not amazing against the knights, and against death guard my big choppas were absolutely wasted, but what I DID note was, they were surprisingly resilient when running in with the waagh.
20 wounds based around 10 models, with a 4 up save, or a 3 up against shooting in cover, and a 5++ on my waagh, and a 6++ the next turn.
Againdt the knight player they survived for 2 full rounds of melee and shooting, and against the DG player the last nob died turn 5, while spænding turn 2-5 on the frontline. So while their damage was super they were really good at soaking up damage instead.
I guess my big choppas would come in handy versus space marines. Yea armor of contempt, but you make enough hits that some will go theough, and those will kill a space marines. Maybe I should to with them without trukkboy keyword to get kulture and keep them with only choppas.
This isnt for super competitiveness, maybe semi competitiveness. I was though, surprised with their resilience when the waagh was cast and they ran in.
Afrodactyl wrote: So my 40k app updated again today, and Kustom Jobs now have points costs again.
GW is frankly all over the place right now with their rules. They definitely are having trouble keeping up with all the changes they're making and it feels like they're making things up as they go along.
Not to mention the App still hasn't actualized the Freebootas Nerf.
But anyway, there hasn't been much talk on the durability gains. At 8 ppm a basic boy at T5 with at most two turns of 5++ is simply something that was not available before.
Yes, their damage output got savaged by AoC. But they still, I think, unquestionably gained some options to become tougher per point, which is what people were saying the issue was originally (not lack of output, lack of resilience).
But anyway, there hasn't been much talk on the durability gains. At 8 ppm a basic boy at T5 with at most two turns of 5++ is simply something that was not available before.
Yes, their damage output got savaged by AoC. But they still, I think, unquestionably gained some options to become tougher per point, which is what people were saying the issue was originally (not lack of output, lack of resilience).
Granted they still have the leadership issues.
Honestly, after having finished my beastsnaggas and giving them a few games, I see zero reason to ever play boyz again unless they are trukk boyz. When a unit of boyz is 90 and a unit of snaggas is 100, it's not even a competition anymore.
I just figured since boyz are S5 for two turns and 5++/6++ during WAAAGH, those are the biggest material advantages between snaggas and regular gits.
Snaggas are still 11% more expensive per model (assuming you take a klaw). Are they really that drastically better, and wouldn't you want to spend the least amount possible on your "troop tax?"
I think that we're in an unusual spot where boyz are not only fragile per point but also deal very low amount of damage with everything being multiwound, well armored and not very expensive.
Boyz just can't handle most of stuff they were good against just an edition ago.
S5-6 doesn't cut it. They can be s100 and still be bad. The main damage problem is that they bounce off anything marine. And are still very slow to choose their own fights. And when you take a trukk or a wagon they get so expensive, they can't deal with comparable points of enemy units. Even with shooty ones cause they're too tough.
Naw, Snaggas are the defacto troops. Given the Codex and edition screams MSU, these guys are the best.
Str 6 is still a huge breakpoint in non-Goffs (lots of T5 troops out there). In Goffs, they go to Str 7! Which again, makes them even more all purpose, as Snaggas are vehicle hunters.
The Snagga claw would go to str 9 in goffs as well. Free claw that hits on 3s.
Given the strat support, the fact they can go into kill rigs, and just generally getting a lot for 10 points (6++, +1 to hit vs vehicles...), I don't see much of any reason to take boys.
Truck boys are still great though if you want that, but otherwise I'd leave boys at home.
TedNugent wrote: I just figured since boyz are S5 for two turns and 5++/6++ during WAAAGH, those are the biggest material advantages between snaggas and regular gits.
Snaggas are still 11% more expensive per model (assuming you take a klaw). Are they really that drastically better, and wouldn't you want to spend the least amount possible on your "troop tax?"
Snaggas essentially are boyz with second turn of Waaagh! for all game. During T1 boyz have to huddle around a KFF to get any save at all and in T1 or T4-5 they simply lose the ability to kill stuff reliably. In my experience an army based on boyz loses all steam when the Waaagh! runs out and just falls apart.
Snaggas on the other hand go to S6 during the Waaagh! which is probably the most important jump in the game (S8 for their nob), can grind down vehicles with weight of attacks and 2+ to hit on their nob. Even if you are running goff, permanents S6 with S7 during the Waaagh! still is a great benefit.
And that's before you factor in the Tough as Squig Hide, Snagga Grapple and Monster Hunters stratagems, which are all quite expensive but also can be game changers when used in the right situation.
No matter what the percentage is, I'll always find 20-30 points to upgrade all mobs to beastsnaggas.
I played the new orks. My friend has been on a loosing streaks. Cheaper boys and the new whaaaaaag put him far up ahead. We have a good game.
How ever, he very often has flash gits in a battlewaggon. They stay in there and shoot all day. Are they very good VS SW in particular? I know the Internett hates them, but they are just marine killers. They are maximum threats every game. Is this just us?
If you're looking for a squad that will stay back and hold and objective then a barebones squad of 10 for 80points is ok. Literally if you're trying to squeeze 20 points in elsewhere on your list.
CaptainO wrote: If you're looking for a squad that will stay back and hold and objective then a barebones squad of 10 for 80points is ok. Literally if you're trying to squeeze 20 points in elsewhere on your list.
If you want to have a squad which contributes nothing to your game, you can always bring gretchin at half that cost.
It's not like those 10 boyz will be able to defend the objective from anything going after them twice as good as those gretchin will.
I've really gone through the iterations, and there is little boyz have going for them. In PL-based games at least they get a free pair of rokkits, but when you have to pay points for those upgrades? You're better off with either upgrade to a unit that can actually kill stuff or keep your troops as cheap as possible.
TedNugent wrote: Are they really that drastically better, and wouldn't you want to spend the least amount possible on your "troop tax?"
The Snaggas are even stronger and have the 6++ on turns that Waaagh isn't in effect, and they hit vehicles and monsters on twos.
As others have said, regular boys are only worth taking as Trukk Boys, and that's not because they deal damage. I take a unit of Trukk Boys because they pull double duty as both first turn charging/contesting alongside blobs of Kommandos, and a taxi service for my Dakka Mek.
If I had points for wagons/rigs, I would 100% change them for Snaggas.
Agree that Snaggas are probably better, but Boyz have access to Tankbusta bombs which just beats Snaggas supposed advantage vs vehicles.
The 6++ is redundant since you only pick a handful. If Snagruk lived or not doesn´t matter most of the time, but the break point due to strength does if you expect them to keep fighting past Waaagh!!.
Also depends on your warlord… if your taking a snagga on squig his aura only works on snaggas..
Honestly as objective holders Gretchin are better right now then boys due to get the good bits and orrible gitz being obj secured. Heck if you are taking a runtherder they are faster too… I don’t think boys are awful but they really don’t serve a purpose when Gretchin and snaggas exist as okay troops.. they need to fix a lot of strategems and morale issues for boyz specifically (hey mob rule why do you suck) and I wouldn’t mind seeing a bonus for large 20+ boy units return… and boys should be decent for greentide lists that way.
So I see 2 options for boys to work… make trukk boys a boys rule (allowing them to keep klan kultur too)
Or
Make mob rule a better morale bonus for boys units of 10+ and 20+. Fix Strat cost (most should cost 1cp) breakin eads should be free the first use or 1 use only per game and free.
And Add -1ap to warpath pyschic power..
Scactha wrote: Agree that Snaggas are probably better, but Boyz have access to Tankbusta bombs which just beats Snaggas supposed advantage vs vehicles.
Snaggas also have a stratagem that not just works against vehicles, but also against monsters. Granted, it costs more CP than the tankbusta bomb does, but it targets up to three units and (assuming an AoC vehicle) does just as much damage during any Waaagh! turn - with much less variance.
Beardedragon wrote: I think there is a point to the tankbusta bomb stratagem. Which is why i also like kommandos. The tankbusta bomb stratagem is really underrated.
While i much prefer snagga boys over boys, having at least some unit being able to use tankbusta bomb in your army is really valuable.
Kommadoz are an all-round great unit, not infantry based army should go without them.
Beardedragon wrote: I think there is a point to the tankbusta bomb stratagem. Which is why i also like kommandos. The tankbusta bomb stratagem is really underrated.
While i much prefer snagga boys over boys, having at least some unit being able to use tankbusta bomb in your army is really valuable.
Kommadoz are an all-round great unit, not infantry based army should go without them.
I agree, every list that runs any infantry should be taking 3x5 kommandos at a minimum
Automatically Appended Next Post: It is really pretty hard to make some plans regarding the list in the moment, there are no fix rules. Because this says: “Even GW knows this is a nonsence and plan to fix it soon, so don ´t bother with this.”
So here is the thing with AoC and the new Ork buffs for boyz.
Boyz before AoC were on a WAAAAGH turn getting about a 66.6% return on investment in CC vs Marines.
Boyz after AoC on a WAAAGH turn were getting about a 44.4% return on investment in CC vs Marines.
Boyz POST AoC and post Buffs are now doing...ready for this....66.6% return on investment in CC vs Marines.
So to summarize the whole thing, Ork boyz are now as good in CC Vs. Marines as they were when the codex dropped, IE not great but not terrible. All of our shooting vs Marines got noticeably worse and especially freeboota Ork builds. (RIP). The real benefit is that with the +1S on the WAAAGH a lot of other builds got more palatable since we aren't forced into playing Goff.
I'm a bit tempted to try and bring a Speed Freakz list featuring lots of Koptas and Wagons since they are now significantly more durable and good in CC thanks to these changes.
SemperMortis wrote: So here is the thing with AoC and the new Ork buffs for boyz.
Boyz before AoC were on a WAAAAGH turn getting about a 66.6% return on investment in CC vs Marines.
Boyz after AoC on a WAAAGH turn were getting about a 44.4% return on investment in CC vs Marines.
Boyz POST AoC and post Buffs are now doing...ready for this....66.6% return on investment in CC vs Marines.
So to summarize the whole thing, Ork boyz are now as good in CC Vs. Marines as they were when the codex dropped, IE not great but not terrible. All of our shooting vs Marines got noticeably worse and especially freeboota Ork builds. (RIP). The real benefit is that with the +1S on the WAAAGH a lot of other builds got more palatable since we aren't forced into playing Goff.
I'm a bit tempted to try and bring a Speed Freakz list featuring lots of Koptas and Wagons since they are now significantly more durable and good in CC thanks to these changes.
Caveat that 66.6% is now ONLY during Waagh.. so orks are worse off outside of waaagh vs marines… but honestly it’s the 2 turns of 5++ that keeps orks alive til turn 4 where they have enough left to score. I still think orks are low B tier but at least we aren’t C tier anymore
Automatically Appended Next Post:
tulun wrote: Few top 4s this weekend. Sounds like a bunch of Ghaz lists.
SemperMortis wrote: So here is the thing with AoC and the new Ork buffs for boyz.
Boyz before AoC were on a WAAAAGH turn getting about a 66.6% return on investment in CC vs Marines.
Boyz after AoC on a WAAAGH turn were getting about a 44.4% return on investment in CC vs Marines.
Boyz POST AoC and post Buffs are now doing...ready for this....66.6% return on investment in CC vs Marines.
So to summarize the whole thing, Ork boyz are now as good in CC Vs. Marines as they were when the codex dropped, IE not great but not terrible. All of our shooting vs Marines got noticeably worse and especially freeboota Ork builds. (RIP). The real benefit is that with the +1S on the WAAAGH a lot of other builds got more palatable since we aren't forced into playing Goff.
I'm a bit tempted to try and bring a Speed Freakz list featuring lots of Koptas and Wagons since they are now significantly more durable and good in CC thanks to these changes.
Caveat that 66.6% is now ONLY during Waagh.. so orks are worse off outside of waaagh vs marines… but honestly it’s the 2 turns of 5++ that keeps orks alive til turn 4 where they have enough left to score. I still think orks are low B tier but at least we aren’t C tier anymore
Very fair point. Pre AoC without WAAAGH Ork boyz were 9ppm and a mob of 30 were dishing out 90 attacks, 60 hits, 30 wounds and 15dmg 270pts doing 135pts of dmg or 50%, After AoC this dropped to 10dmg. So after AoC it was 270pts doing 90pts of dmg, that is a 33% return on investment. Now that boyz are 8ppm they are 240pts doing 90pts of dmg so the return on investment in CC becomes 37.4% so pretty terrible honestly But the WAAAGH bonus really helps them push it over the top in a lot of ways.
The point being is that boyz are Pt for Pt terrible compared to Tac Marines who are themselves pretty bad. In a WAAAGH turn those boyz hit WAY above their grade but its only good for 2 turns, so usually turns 1-2 or turns 2-3.
flaming tadpole wrote: I'm surprised I haven't been seeing more lists with burna Boyz with the rise of kill rigs.
There's maybe a niche for a Burna Boyz and MANz combo in a BW, but it's just a means of killing off chat units which we already do pretty well.
If Kustom Jobs were free then Zzapkrumpas Burna Boyz are a decent way of putting out MWs, but that idea late all of about ten before it got changed back
Realistically Burna Boyz are best suited to being either action monkeys, or soaking up wounds for MANz in an exploding wagon.
Vineheart01 wrote: they look pretty bad to me.
Its a bunch of S4 AP0 shooting at point blank range on tissuepaper models.
They wont kill anything orks dont really have a problem getting rid of anyway.
If their Cutting Flames strat was baked in like it used to be they'd be a pretty good take, but as it is they're mostly just better shoota boys, but still not great.
Burnaboyz are good for the fact that they can be fielded in min squads that only cost 50 points (they're actually the cheaper non gretchins min squad in the codex now) and eat up elite slots, which we have plenty to burn unlike HS or FA. They're not there to delete enemy stuff.
Min squads of boyz/snaggas cost much more, kommandos are autotake but mostly in 10 man squads, so they compete with stuff like stormboyz or gretchins.
Vineheart01 wrote: they look pretty bad to me.
Its a bunch of S4 AP0 shooting at point blank range on tissuepaper models.
They wont kill anything orks dont really have a problem getting rid of anyway.
It's a ton of S4 shooting though - even after some losses getting 7d6 hits isn't that hard and that still amounts to two dead marines and neither AoC nor transhuman changes anything about that. There aren't many shooting units that can claim the same.
It doesn't really matter that they die quickly, at 10ppm they are allowed to do so.
flaming tadpole wrote: I'm surprised I haven't been seeing more lists with burna Boyz with the rise of kill rigs.
There's maybe a niche for a Burna Boyz and MANz combo in a BW, but it's just a means of killing off chat units which we already do pretty well.
If Kustom Jobs were free then Zzapkrumpas Burna Boyz are a decent way of putting out MWs, but that idea late all of about ten before it got changed back
Realistically Burna Boyz are best suited to being either action monkeys, or soaking up wounds for MANz in an exploding wagon.
I'd like to point out that upgraded burnas deal better damage than manz even vs tougher targets, don't really need any starts to function well enough and are probalby more durable in the current meta.
Not telling they're great, just not worse than manz at manz' job. Probably, better.
Burnas also do have the advantage of side-stepping the dreaded minuses to hit from certain factions like Eldar and the new "trans-hit" abilities that some units do too, so they do have their niche given their cost.
Burnaboyz are starting to get close to that sweet spot where they are able to put out enough dmg to justify their existence. You can take 7 Burnaboyz and a Spanner with KMB for 85pts, 5pts cheaper than 3 meganobz. Those 7 Burnaboyz as Jid mentioned average 2 dead Marines. 3 Meganobz average 0.5 dead Marines a turn at range.
In CC those Burnaboyz get 1.77 dead Marines
In CC Those Meganobz get 2.5 dead Marines
So dmg wise the Burnaboyz are noticeably better. The big disadvantage is that Burnaboyz are 6+ save where as Meganobz are 2+. Of course against multi-dmg weapons the burnaboyz win but i would still give the advantage to Meganobz.
BTW the shooting didn't factor in the spanner...who in my opinion is just as likely to hurt himself as the enemy.
Why are we comparing burnaboys to mega nobs rather than burnaboyz to normal boyz? They dont serve the same function, mega nobz and burnaboys.
I also wouldnt attempt to slam my 30ppm mega nobz in to regular space marines unless i had no other decent target to go for.
Mega Nobz are can openers, not chaff clearers.
So yea i expect burnaboyz to deal decently with regular space marines. Lets turn it the other way around, what deals best with a toughness 7 Rhino or centurions or something more beefy than space marines? I would hope that Mega nobz do, but i havent really done the math on any of it. Furthermore, you never get anywhere with 3 mega nobz in general, as that wont ever wipe any vehicles or units. You would need at least 5 mega nobz to do that. And 150 points of mega nobz stand a much better chance at destroying a rhino than 150 points of burnaboyz i would assume (at least i hope so). And if you want 150 points of burnaboyz that would mean you would need to go up to 15 burnaboyz where 3 or so of them are big shoota spanners. And its hardly efficient to run around with 15 burnaboyz id say. So when you start slamming more than maybe 4-5+ mega nobz down the efficiency start going more in favor of the mega nobz than burna boyz.
Edit: Hell, for 85 points you could also get 5 nobz with double choppas for the same price. I feel like comparing burnaboyz to normal boyz or nobz with choppas seem like a better comparison than a Mega Nob serving a different function. I agree though, burnaboyz start to look really good, but ive always felt like Mega Nobz werent as good as they were meant to, compared to other factions terminators. What we get for 30 points isnt at all what others get for their 40 and around that.
For a unit solely meant to open vehicles with powerklaws i fail to see why they MUST have a -1 to hit.
SemperMortis wrote: Burnaboyz are starting to get close to that sweet spot where they are able to put out enough dmg to justify their existence. You can take 7 Burnaboyz and a Spanner with KMB for 85pts, 5pts cheaper than 3 meganobz. Those 7 Burnaboyz as Jid mentioned average 2 dead Marines. 3 Meganobz average 0.5 dead Marines a turn at range.
Drop the KMB, it's not worth it on a 5+ model. The big shoota is free, the KMB is not.
SemperMortis wrote: Burnaboyz are starting to get close to that sweet spot where they are able to put out enough dmg to justify their existence. You can take 7 Burnaboyz and a Spanner with KMB for 85pts, 5pts cheaper than 3 meganobz. Those 7 Burnaboyz as Jid mentioned average 2 dead Marines. 3 Meganobz average 0.5 dead Marines a turn at range.
In CC those Burnaboyz get 1.77 dead Marines
In CC Those Meganobz get 2.5 dead Marines
So dmg wise the Burnaboyz are noticeably better. The big disadvantage is that Burnaboyz are 6+ save where as Meganobz are 2+. Of course against multi-dmg weapons the burnaboyz win but i would still give the advantage to Meganobz.
BTW the shooting didn't factor in the spanner...who in my opinion is just as likely to hurt himself as the enemy.
I didn't actually realise they had okay damage output without Zzapkrumpas. I just assumed they were pretty meh.
Bearing this in mind I might test out replacing my Trukk Boys squad with an equal points cost of Burna Boys. Instead of being a turn one charge, they get to effectively be a short range buggy. With the Dakka Mek on board as well it might be a fairly decent little gunboat.
SemperMortis wrote: Burnaboyz are starting to get close to that sweet spot where they are able to put out enough dmg to justify their existence. You can take 7 Burnaboyz and a Spanner with KMB for 85pts, 5pts cheaper than 3 meganobz. Those 7 Burnaboyz as Jid mentioned average 2 dead Marines. 3 Meganobz average 0.5 dead Marines a turn at range.
Drop the KMB, it's not worth it on a 5+ model. The big shoota is free, the KMB is not.
I agree, always the free gun for spannerz leading burnaboyz or lootas.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Beardedragon wrote: Why are we comparing burnaboys to mega nobs rather than burnaboyz to normal boyz? They dont serve the same function, mega nobz and burnaboys.
Only because they're both elites I guess. Burnaboyz don't compete with boyz, because the only reason people might take boyz or snaggas is to fill up the tax troops slots. Burnaboyz are taken by choice instead, just like meganobz. But I agree, they do have different roles.
No but most people will have a battalion these days with the new rules which gives us 6 elite slots. So theres plenty of room for both mega nobz, burna boyz and kommandos.
And i dont think comparing boyz to burnaboyz is useless because they both do the same thing, clear chaff.
Sure on a primary role, boyz are obsec and a troop tax. But on a secondary role in terms of what they kill, they have the same strength and are good at killing the same targets. With burnaboyz getting -2AP if you pay for it with CP, for better AP against hardier targets.
So i very much feel like they do cover, at least, some of the same roles. at least more so than mega nobz compared to burna boyz.
Vineheart01 wrote: Comparing any troop with a nontroop is pointless.
You have to take troops, or half your CP. You dont have to take elites unless you have a brigade
Some of us are running detachments outside of battalions. I'm running a Patrol alongside an Outrider, so I only need to take 1 troops slot. Our Fast Attack slots are arguably our best in the book, so I'm taking as many of them as possible, and as few tax units as possible.
Not that there seems to be much reason to take anything but goffs right now, I might try mulit-detachment with msu of burnas as deathskulls for obj sec and the kmb reroll.
Vineheart01 wrote: Comparing any troop with a nontroop is pointless.
You have to take troops, or half your CP. You dont have to take elites unless you have a brigade
If you are running an infantry list, you need to get your orks somewhere. After you have brought your mandatory troops and as many kommadoz as you can, storm boyz and burna boyz are pretty much the next best things to go for. At that point you are comparing them to troops, because you definitely want burnas instead of more boyz or beastsnaggas.
Beardedragon wrote: Why are we comparing burnaboys to mega nobs rather than burnaboyz to normal boyz? They dont serve the same function, mega nobz and burnaboys.
I also wouldnt attempt to slam my 30ppm mega nobz in to regular space marines unless i had no other decent target to go for.
Mega Nobz are can openers, not chaff clearers.
So yea i expect burnaboyz to deal decently with regular space marines. Lets turn it the other way around, what deals best with a toughness 7 Rhino or centurions or something more beefy than space marines?
3 Manz (90 pts) vs a rhino:
0.5 wounds with shootas if in dakka range, 0.33 if not. But might not shoot at all after advance.
2 wounds go through without waagh, 2.66 with waagh. Which ends up as 4-5 damage average (most likely, somewhere in a range of 2-6. If you spend 2 cp the range will get to 3-9 with an average of 6 w/o waagh and 6-9 (closer to 9) with waagh
8 burnas and spanner (90-95 of with kmb) vs a rhino:
3,1 wounds with burnas and either 0.2 with a bigshoota or 1.55 with a kmb with +1 shot (assuming it's free but mek might as well kill himself rolling a 1 to hit)
1.33 wounds go throung in mellee without waaagh and 2 with waagh.
Now if the mek jobs are free, you have 2 more mw I'm mellee without waaagh and 3 more with waagh.
You can also spend a cp for ap2 which will end up as a +0.66 wound boost w/o waagh and +1 wound boost with waagh (as armor of contempt just makes it ap1 instead of ap2).
You can also spend a cp and get an extra mw to the rhino and everything around it in shooting.
So, summing up:
Manz average output vs a rhino is 4-4,5 wounds w/o waagh and 4-6.5 with waagh. Spending 2 cp will boost it to 6-6.5 wo/waagh and 6-9.5 with waagh.
Burnas average output vs a rhino is around 4.5 without waagh and mek jobs, around 5.15 with waagh but without mek jobs, 6.5 without waagh but with mek jobs, 8.15 with waagh and mek jobs. Spending 2 cp will boost it to 10.15 with waagh and mek jobs.
If you're also crazy and lucky enough, you get a couple extra wounds with a kmb but from my own experience running kmb and kms, you either end up doing absolutely nothing, or something like 10 wounds in one go. It's SWINGY.
Anywayz, if you've been folowong the math, you could see that burnas are better can openers than manz. Especially with free mek jobs. If those are not free, they're around on par or a bit better.
They are also more reliable than manz as they're gonna deal some damage even if they haven't managed to pull a charge off and will still shoot even after advance.
Bear in mind that no clan traits have been included. Manz can still have a role as trukkboyz - not for damage (as it sucks, really) but for distraction. While burns seem to be better all-rounders that deal more damage vs everything but can't perform board-long distraction charges t1.
My experience with manz (and I run them all the time cause I love the models) is that they deal surprisingly mediocre damage and don't live very well. But are relatively functional as a distraction and look cool. Basically, the only thing they can reliably bully are enemy min troops without upgrades or some transports or shooty vehicles. Anything better than that and they fall flat.
Maybe so. But you wouldnt run around with 15 Burnaboyz, you would, however, always have a minimum of 5 mega nobz because 3 mega nobz gets you no where.
So even if 15 burnaboyz could do the same damage, you wouldnt want to go full payload from blast weapons just to get 5 more models.
And i dont count the kustom jobs as free nor would i use KMBs. And then furthermore, theres a difference in durbility by mega nobz having a 2+ save and 3 wounds where burnaboyz has a 6+ and 1 wound. While burnaboyz has a total of 1 more wound if you only count 3 mega nobz versus 10 burnaboyz, the +2 save for mega nobz would help them out more than that 1 extra wound. there isnt even a nob in the unit. And i most likely wouldnt spend 1CP to give them -2AP because im already super low on CP already, so by stock the AP is just better for mega nobz.
Burnaboyz start looking really good thats true which is, in my opinion because mega nobz arent good enough in close combat. But i would still rather have 5 mega nobz for dedicated toughness 8 clearing, than 15 burnaboyz doing the same thing. In fact im not really using mega nobz as we speak, but im also not really using burna boyz. Im spending points on kill rigs, snagga boyz, kommandos, squig riders and stormboys.
As usual i havent done the math but im running as Goffs, so why would i want 10 burnaboyz rather than 10 beast snagga boys? I feel like i get more value out of beastsnagga boys than burnaboyz for the same cost. Or even stormboyz. While stormboyz have the same profile as a burnaboy except for 1 more attack and -1AP, they do have the ability to essentially be where ever they want by being able to fly. And the beast snagga boys have a large amount of stratagems they can use including +1 to wound, better str, invul saves, a free powersnappa and +1 to hit versus monsters and vehicles.
I feel like in my Goff army, going for actual close combat infantry made more sense than burnaboys.
Beardedragon wrote: Maybe so. But you wouldnt run around with 15 Burnaboyz, you would, however, always have a minimum of 5 mega nobz because 3 mega nobz gets you no where.
You are never going to run around with 15 burna boyz, but you WOULD run around with 5 mega nobz. So even if 15 burnaboyz could do the same damage, you wouldnt want to go full payload from blast weapons just to get 5 more models.
And i dont count the kustom jobs as free nor would i use KMBs. And then furthermore, theres a difference in durbility by mega nobz having a 2+ save and 3 wounds where burnaboyz has a 6+ and 1 wound. While burnaboyz has a total of 1 more wound if you only count 3 mega nobz versus 10 burnaboyz, the +2 save for mega nobz would help them out more than that 1 extra wound. there isnt even a nob in the unit. And i most likely wouldnt spend 1CP to give them -2AP because im already super low on CP already, so by stock the AP is just better for mega nobz.
Burnaboyz start looking really good thats true which is, in my opinion because mega nobz arent good enough in close combat. But i would still rather have 5 mega nobz for dedicated toughness 8 clearing, than 15 burnaboyz doing the same thing.
Yeah, there's a difference in durability. Burnas are more durable.
Anyways, those are just calculations that show raw damage. Burnas are bbetter at killing hard stuff than manz but that's not that big of an achievement cause manz suck at killing stuff in the first place.
We, re basically comparing 2 underwhelmimg units and getting that one is slightly bette Ethan the other. It won't affect your games most of the time regardless. So, take whatever you like more. I know that manz are bad and still run them and get some occasional results. That's just a game. And it's supposed to be fun. So, have some.
Beardedragon wrote: Maybe so. But you wouldnt run around with 15 Burnaboyz, you would, however, always have a minimum of 5 mega nobz because 3 mega nobz gets you no where.
You are never going to run around with 15 burna boyz, but you WOULD run around with 5 mega nobz. So even if 15 burnaboyz could do the same damage, you wouldnt want to go full payload from blast weapons just to get 5 more models.
And i dont count the kustom jobs as free nor would i use KMBs. And then furthermore, theres a difference in durbility by mega nobz having a 2+ save and 3 wounds where burnaboyz has a 6+ and 1 wound. While burnaboyz has a total of 1 more wound if you only count 3 mega nobz versus 10 burnaboyz, the +2 save for mega nobz would help them out more than that 1 extra wound. there isnt even a nob in the unit. And i most likely wouldnt spend 1CP to give them -2AP because im already super low on CP already, so by stock the AP is just better for mega nobz.
Burnaboyz start looking really good thats true which is, in my opinion because mega nobz arent good enough in close combat. But i would still rather have 5 mega nobz for dedicated toughness 8 clearing, than 15 burnaboyz doing the same thing.
Yeah, there's a difference in durability. Burnas are more durable.
Anyways, those are just calculations that show raw damage. Burnas are bbetter at killing hard stuff than manz but that's not that big of an achievement cause manz suck at killing stuff in the first place.
We, re basically comparing 2 underwhelmimg units and getting that one is slightly bette Ethan the other. It won't affect your games most of the time regardless. So, take whatever you like more. I know that manz are bad and still run them and get some occasional results. That's just a game. And it's supposed to be fun. So, have some.
How are 10 burna boyz with 10 wounds, with a 6+ better at taking damage than 3 mega nobz with 9 wounds and a 2+?
The difference is 1 wound yet the save value is +2 for a mega nob and 6+ for a burna boy.
You force your opponent to either dedicate his anti tank shooting to mega nobz or fear spending a ton of smaller bolter shots to deal with them. On the other hand, any given wound given to a burna boy is most likely to kill him. Hell theres a 16% chance a burna boy will survive a regular bolter shot without AP. and thats not taking in to consideration that its considerably easier to hide 3 mega nobz than 10 burna boyz, making the mega nobz usually always get +1 to save from cover, where there is often going to be some burna boyz not sitting in cover for a 5+. Being in obscurring is thus also much easier for mega nobz to hide from the D2 weapons.
So while you could easily remove the mega nobz with a squad of devastators or multi meltas, those are devastators or multimeltas not hitting your rather meta Kill rigs or battlewagons. You actually have to dedicate something to dealing with the mega nobz, you barely have to sneeze then burnaboyz die.
With all that said and done i still havent really used mega nobz in this edition. I hate the idea that you get so little value out of them compared to what others get for their terminators. They can only do one thing and they dont even do that very well.
I don't think MAN and burnas are comparable at all - you'll never use them to do the same jobs, attack the same units, nor will they be shot by the same guns.
Burnas work well (not great, just well) when you have a ton of bodies running up the field benefitting from the new Waaagh! and potentially a KFF or doc. Any extra points spent on them usually turns them into a bad unit, especially if you run more than 10.
Putting burnas in a wagon or trukk is just wasting points to imitate a KBB, which isn't exactly tournament material either.
MANz need a delivery system one way or another, and they do draw anti-tank fire, which means they cannot run up the field with a horde and rely on advance+charge to connect. In an army full of other multi-wound models they often find a window to do the damage you are paying them for or hold out on objectives when there are more immediate threats to handler for your opponent's big guns.
TedNugent wrote: Both battlewagons and trukks are open-topped, no? What's wrong with shooting out of the transport vehicle with burnas?
10 burnas in a trukk are 170 points, two KBB are 160. KBB are more durable, have the same amount of burna shots, but get the spiked ram and rivet cannon on top of that.
KBB aren't exactly a great unit, and the burna trukk and BW are worse.
They've even got 12" range, so they could conceivably be teleported.
Their damage is good, but not good enough to warrant suiciding a unit. Flamers aren't a great weapon, burnas just happen to make them worthwhile because they get a ton of them cheap.
The difference is 1 wound yet the save value is +2 for a mega nob and 6+ for a burna boy.
You force your opponent to either dedicate his anti tank shooting to mega nobz or fear spending a ton of smaller bolter shots to deal with them. On the other hand, any given wound given to a burna boy is most likely to kill him.
To be honest, I face much more ap3-4 high damage weaponry than I face low/no ap anti-infantry. Even so, worst case scenario:
A regular no-ap bolter hit deals 0.55pts (wounds * model cost) of damage to mans, while it deals 2.77 pts of damage to burnas.
When you start factoring in 5++ from waagh and the fact that ap2 bolters are not that rare thanks to primaria and doctrines, it goes to:
1.66 pts to manz vs 2.22 pts to burnas.
So, I'd not call the durability difference all that great. Regular bolters can't hurt manz but can kill burnas, yes. But I'm not facing too many opponents that bring more than just a handful bolters abd equal anti-infantry weaponry. They usually only take it on min troops that are some where behind blos to score points and perform actions or come stock on vehicles. All the guns are high-ap multi wound.
And burnas start getting 2-3 times more durable vs this guns than manz.
The difference is 1 wound yet the save value is +2 for a mega nob and 6+ for a burna boy.
You force your opponent to either dedicate his anti tank shooting to mega nobz or fear spending a ton of smaller bolter shots to deal with them. On the other hand, any given wound given to a burna boy is most likely to kill him.
To be honest, I face much more ap3-4 high damage weaponry than I face low/no ap anti-infantry. Even so, worst case scenario: A regular no-ap bolter hit deals 0.55pts (wounds * model cost) of damage to mans, while it deals 2.77 pts of damage to burnas. When you start factoring in 5++ from waagh and the fact that ap2 bolters are not that rare thanks to primaria and doctrines, it goes to: 1.66 pts to manz vs 2.22 pts to burnas.
So, I'd not call the durability difference all that great. Regular bolters can't hurt manz but can kill burnas, yes. But I'm not facing too many opponents that bring more than just a handful bolters abd equal anti-infantry weaponry. They usually only take it on min troops that are some where behind blos to score points and perform actions or come stock on vehicles. All the guns are high-ap multi wound. And burnas start getting 2-3 times more durable vs this guns than manz.
Against AP2 bolters a mega nob would save on a 3+ because theres no reason not to constantly be in ruins as a mega nob and the unit is small enough to make this work. From the moment you are flung out of your destroyed battlewagon, to when you move up. The only time you probably wouldnt be in cover is when you actually charge, but by that time your enemy would engage your mega nobz in close combat anyway, forgoing the +1 to save you would get from light cover anyway.
Against AP2 bolter shots a burna boy even in cover, would still die.
Furthermore if you fight enemies that never really run around with anti chaff guns or weapons, then your enemies set themselves up to lose against high body count armies. Any list with respect for itself has ways to deal with high and low toughness models. Unless they are SO tough in general that they dont need to shred small infantry instantly. Like a custodian army or maybe Knights. So they have other ways to deal with it, and generally wont be bothered by a burna boy unit anyway.
it sounds like you could win against all your enemies in your area by simply throwing down 200 boys if they dont even bring guns or weapons to deal with burnaboys... And dont have any other trick up their sleeve to win.
Beardedragon wrote: sonds like you could win against all your enemies in your area by simply throwing down 200 boys if they dont even bring guns or weapons to deal with burnaboys... And dont have any other trick up their sleeve to win.
If only it was that easy... Boyz just can't kill anything significant.
Just from the top of my head, armies that are mostly represented are:
3 different knight players
2 death guard with mortarions, termies and vehicles.
2 tsons with a lot of mortal wounds and nothing worse than ap2
2 deathwings with tough termies with mostly damage 3 weapons
5-6 different flavors of Marines with lots of meltas and dreadnoughts.
2 harlequins with nothing worse than ap2 d2
3 necrons with mostly d2 ap 2-4 stuff
2 tau with mostly plasmas and ap3+ shooting.
2 Custodes
Monster mash nids
....
That's not all, just those I regularly see around and play vs.
There's just nothing that's not kitted for dealing with hard targets or that can be dealt with regular Boyz. I guess, it's just the norm right now.
Beardedragon wrote: sonds like you could win against all your enemies in your area by simply throwing down 200 boys if they dont even bring guns or weapons to deal with burnaboys... And dont have any other trick up their sleeve to win.
If only it was that easy... Boyz just can't kill anything significant.
Just from the top of my head, armies that are mostly represented are:
3 different knight players
2 death guard with mortarions, termies and vehicles.
2 tsons with a lot of mortal wounds and nothing worse than ap2
2 deathwings with tough termies with mostly damage 3 weapons
5-6 different flavors of Marines with lots of meltas and dreadnoughts.
2 harlequins with nothing worse than ap2 d2
3 necrons with mostly d2 ap 2-4 stuff
2 tau with mostly plasmas and ap3+ shooting.
2 Custodes
Monster mash nids
....
That's not all, just those I regularly see around and play vs.
There's just nothing that's not kitted for dealing with hard targets or that can be dealt with regular Boyz. I guess, it's just the norm right now.
Yeah, my meta looks very similar - durable infantry everywhere. Even armies that traditionally have been relying on lightly armored infantry like nids, orks, daemons or guard are either not played or have pivoted to vehicles and monsters. The only army that I feel is still fighting the "good" fight is GSC.
If you bring quantity over quality, they will dictate the game flow and you just get roadblocked by units of terminators or a couple of monsters and they wipe you off the board by turn 3. Even if they don't gear up for fighting hordes, almost all armies still have some capabilities to deal with them. If you allow them to unfold their synergies unhindered, use their CP in an optimal way and maximize your morale casualties, you don't have fighting chance with boyz.
If im not mistaken, there was a change to when you held an objective in warzone nephilim, that you had to hold an objective in the command phase in order to actually take it.
Was it your own command phase or just any command phase? I cant really remember, but if its any or your own, does that mean when you start the command phase while standing on an objective, in the no mans land, you then gain the points for having held the objective by the end of the battle round?
The way i understand it, it scores up those points by the end of the battle round but it didnt matter when you did any of the things, including holding the objective, which you held in your own command phase. So, can you hold it by the start of your own command phase, then move away from it because you might want to kill someone else, then still get the points for it? Because you held it by your own command phase with your warlord. Or must you end your turn or potentially end the entire battle round with your warlord on the objective?
Battle Size [6CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points) [6CP]
Clan Kultur: Goffs
Detachment Command Cost [-3CP]
Gametype: 4. Chapter Approved: War Zone Nephilim
+ HQ [12 PL, -2CP, 210pts] +
Beastboss on Squigosaur [9 PL, -2CP, 160pts]: 4. Brutal but Kunnin, Beastchoppa, Headwoppa’s Killchoppa, Slugga, Squigosaur’s Jaws, Stratagem: Big Boss [-1CP], Stratagem: Extra Gubbinz [-1CP]
Coastal Wargaming & Warp Charged Gaming Major - Kevin Leonard – Evil Sunz – 3rd Place - who said SpeedMob is dead?! Hell! Single outrider with big squads of buggies and double Wazbooms!
Wazbom Blastajet [10 PL, 220pts]: 2x Tellyport Mega-Blastas, Blastajet Force Field, Supa Shoota
Wazbom Blastajet [10 PL, 220pts]: 2x Tellyport Mega-Blastas, Blastajet Force Field, Supa Shoota
++ Total: [109 PL, 5CP, 2,000pts] ++
Same event - 9th – Blue Ford - and speedmob again! And again Evil Sunz! Double Outrider with a lot of relics, so a minimum number of CPs on the beginning! Even Nob bikers!
Kinda surprised to see evilsun speedmob doing okay.. it has issues namely low firepower and issues with objective scoring.
But glad to see something completely different from goff pressure (with ghaz) doing well.
Still hope kustomjobs stay free as that can only help speedmob do better. (1 speedmob has free KJ, the other doesn’t)
Beardedragon wrote: The second speed mob user sure took advantage of potentially free kustom jobs.
Same event and the guy who did better didn’t use free kustom jobs… but I still hope it stays free. It doesn’t really add much to ork list strength. Just makes more individual ork units viable. Crazier issue is he didn’t save any cp for crashing through or AOOTS.. speedmob is like the only list w decent Strats but in order to use all those KJ he needed 2 detachments.
Just a small heads up. I went on to GWs webpage where they sell miniatures and got in touch with some dude named Brandon.
I asked f the free kustom job thing was a bug and he gave me this answer:
So if they aren't listed in the updated points that typically means that they don't have a cost however for full clarity you would want to email in to: 40KFAQ@gwplc.com and keep an eye on any future errata's or releases.
In this case the way we are presently interpreting this is due to it not having points we would say these do not cost anything however please do keep an eye out for any changes on this.
While i knew it wasnt the right place to ask, i went for it anyway. he at the very least did, clarify, that if its not written in the FAQ, that means its free. Dont know if it means anything to anyone and it could still be a bug. But still.
Thanks for your efforts Beardedragon, though unfortunately, I don't think their cusotmer service is seen or counts as a "end all be all" source for whether or not Kustom Jobs are legit for free. Tbh, at least until they clarify it, I feel like we should play it like it is because of how meh most of them are already and it gives us a chance to try out things we normally wouldn't bother paying for as long as you're not going to a tournament that rules against it.
Only people who can accurately answer is the rules team and they don’t do anything unofficially outside a faq/errata. I mean that email address doesn’t get a reply but might be included in the faq
But he’s right… Rules as written it doesn’t have points and is free however it can also be a mistake. The way the points document is done doesn’t rule out mistakes…
I think however even if it’s a mistake the rules team just won’t care enough to fix it quickly. Kinda like the AOOTS strat for speed mob.. it really shouldn’t allow you to go in and out of reserves same turn… GW just didn’t care…
I hope it stays free as i don’t think it increases the power of lists much at all… with limited detachments and slots it makes taking a unit of 1 a tougher decision but it does open up a few units that weren’t as competitive before… shokk atk gun, deffdread, squigbuggy, etc
I think it's a mistake and I'm pretty sure it'll be officially fixed at some point but until then I'll use free kustom jobs. Everyone in my group agreed to that since orks need a boost, RAW they're actually free, and me and the other ork player don't play our currently best pressure or AoR lists anyway.
Blackie wrote: I think it's a mistake and I'm pretty sure it'll be officially fixed at some point but until then I'll use free kustom jobs. Everyone in my group agreed to that since orks need a boost, RAW they're actually free, and me and the other ork player don't play our currently best pressure or AoR lists anyway.
yea maybe i should too. I havent up till this point and ive had 4 games since the nephilim warzone came out.
gungo wrote: 2 goff pressure and 2 evilsun speedmob
Kinda surprised to see evilsun speedmob doing okay.. it has issues namely low firepower and issues with objective scoring.
But glad to see something completely different from goff pressure (with ghaz) doing well.
Still hope kustomjobs stay free as that can only help speedmob do better. (1 speedmob has free KJ, the other doesn’t)
Absolutely agree with the Kustom Jobs. I 'm also super glad it works.
There is definitely no problem with the fire power in speed mob! Firepower and mobility. The two main advetages of Speed mob. And changes in Nephilin did (almost) nothing with it. Minor nerf on two planes (freeboota nerf) but improve via free Kustom Jobs and price drop on squigbuggy.
The issue is the secondaries. Giving up a lot and scoring badly.
Choosing of Evel Sunz is surprise, but not so much. The Clan do a little in Speedmob. And both of these guys play the Evil Sunz mainly for the Driven by Dakka = move after shooting. Why? Because it cost just 1 CP! In the new system, you can do it every turn. The second has advance and charge for warbikers but… this is 1 CP to scare the opponent because 3 warbikers do really nothing in charge.
I 'm honestly surprised from the first list with the one detach. There is just a single bloody warbiker mob. A single bloody obsec unit. A single unit that can do Bitz. Hell, how had he scored? But he did! 82/95/83/91/100. That sounds like a solid secondaries plan!
It seems litle bit like “in new Nephilin we need to use a lot of small infatry to score” meta and this infantry lacks the heavy guns to kill the speedmob fast enough. So he simply shoot and press and move and score ENGAGE, No prisoners / Grind and Assasin/Bring/Abhorn.
Of course he can score Bitz and Da Biggest - but there is absolutely no redundancy. No tooling up for this. One unit lost and he fails.
I go to find him on reddit of facebook. I need to know….
What am I missing on those Goff lists snd tje Grotz? They can’t score T1, so are they supposed to run up behind a screen of the test of the army? Can be done, but why.
Scactha wrote: What am I missing on those Goff lists snd tje Grotz? They can’t score T1, so are they supposed to run up behind a screen of the test of the army? Can be done, but why.
Adaptable.. sometimes they use good bits and sometimes they use biggest and baddest… it’s explained more in the goonhammer article but those lists change secondaries based on the mission.
I agree though if you lean into goodbits you can easily max out that secondary but then your issue becomes trying to max out the primary with enough obj secured to control and contest.
I Fail to see why you shouldnt be able to both max out good bits and primaries.
You just need 30 grots (hell even 20 grots) for good bits. thats not exactly expensive. You have plenty of points for units pushing forward keeping the enemy back.
Automatically Appended Next Post: One could put ghaz in a supreme detatchment and still run, lets say, a bad moon detatchment next to it right? That wouldnt be illigal?
I was just saying good bits is easy to max out if your army is built for it and your focus is maxing primaries.
I do feel spread thin at times trying to control multiple objectives especially with limited obj secured units though. I miss the good ol days of dual detachments and obj secured kommandos all over the place.
Reviewing my list again for the umpteenth time. I've condensed it down into two patrols to squeeze a second starting CP in. After dropping a Snazzwagon and adjusting Squighog numbers to better suit the halved number of available FA slots, I have 80ish points to play with.
As far as units capable of performing actions go, I have;
10x Trukk Boys
25x Kommandos (in a 10:10:5 split, the two bigger units having Bomb Squigs)
10x Squighog Boys (5:5, with Bomb Squigs)
10x Gretchin
I'm stuck between these main choices;
1. Another 10 Gretchin and a sprinkling of some toys here and there.
2. Some Burna Boys, and a sprinkling of some toys here and there.
3. 5 Tankbustas.
Which ever I add will basically be sat on an objective doing actions and little else.
I'm intrigued by the Tankbustas because they will actually be able to do something other than actions, but are they worthwhile in such small numbers?
Tankbustas are expensive for being action monkeys. For the same price you can field 5 burnaboyz and 10 gretchins. Even 3 meganobz are a much better choice for objective sitters and action monkeys for the same cost, at least they can soak some firepower.
I think tankbustas are decent if you're planning on making use of all their potential: shoot, unleash a bomb squig, charge with the hammer. I would take something else otherwise.
I kind of agree, unless you move forward to at least throw the squig at something valuable, tank bustas are too much points for too little survivability.
10 gretchin definitely work a lot better for backfield monkey'ing. It's kind of ridiculous how much that 1 point drop has changed our views on them.
That's kind of what I was thinking after posting to be honest, that TBs wouldn't be worthwhile as they're either doing actions and not shooting, or shooting and not doing actions. And again, there's five of them, how much are they actually contributing?
Thanks for the comments. I'll stick with Burnas or Gretchin. Either way I can squeeze in a PK on my Trukkboys and Forktress for their ride, so it might be Burnas just so it's less models to paint.
While they are all plays on goff pressure (kinda). They are all different types of units and setups. It has more to do with the current missions then our vehicles. Speedmob isn’t actually bad (restrictive but okay) especially if kustom jobs stay free.. it’s just harder to play the missions w speedmob.
Only 1 out of 4 lists use free kustom jobs :(. BattleScribe needs to make that change
I took anything with 5+ rounds and 30 people plus…. Aaand I failed, one of the dudes is 8 people “GT” with very bad scoring. I take him out.
Hell, why people call the tournament with 8 people “GT”? In such way i can play GT every weekend at home with my budies….
The TO just labeled the event as GT to draw more attention to it. Kind of like how every event with a stage and more than one band gets called a festival.
I took anything with 5+ rounds and 30 people plus…. Aaand I failed, one of the dudes is 8 people “GT” with very bad scoring. I take him out.
Hell, why people call the tournament with 8 people “GT”? In such way i can play GT every weekend at home with my budies….
The TO just labeled the event as GT to draw more attention to it. Kind of like how every event with a stage and more than one band gets called a festival.
Great. So I gonna make TTS exclusive GT tonight. Exclusive = me + anyone available online…
So I just played a 2k game last night, my first game with the Nephilim changes and the new Ork buffs. I gotta say, the new buffs were really, really useful, and I'd just like to share a few things I learned. I was playing a version of Goff pressure that I can make with the models I actually have, while my opponent was playing Black Legion with the new CSM codex. Brief overview of the lists in the spoiler box below.
Spoiler:
My list was:
Warboss in mega armor w/ krushing armor and ‘ard as nails
Big Mek in mega armor w/ KFF and da ded shiny shoota
Big Mek w/ SAG
10 x 3 boyz led by nob w/ PK
10 x 3 grots (one squad is ‘orrible gitz)
5 Meganobz w/ PKs and skorchas
10 Big Choppa Nobz
3 Deff Dreadz all w/ CCW
7 Stormboyz w/ a PK
6 Burnaz and a spanner
Wazbom jet
Battlewagon w/ 4 big shootas
Trukk
My opponents’ list was (apologies as I don’t have the exact details):
Abaddon
Chaos lord in terminator armour
Sorcerer
Dark Apostle
3 x 10 Legionnaries (2 w/ bolters, 1 w/ chainswords)
10 cultists
10 Terminators
5 Havocs
2 Rhinos
Result: my opponent conceded on turn 3.
Some things I learned:
- 5+ invuln on the WAAAGH is so good. It makes your guys so much more survivable. Even if it only lasts a turn, your WAAAGH turn is probably the turn you're going to get attacked the most, so it comes up huge in most situations.
- Grots are AMAZING. No serious Ork list should leave home without at least 3 squads of ten. GDGB is free points a lot of the time and even if it isn't, they're still great at gumming up your opponents' charges. Just be careful as they're easy targets for No Prisoners and Grind Them Down if you expose them too much.
- Burna boyz are actually OK. They're pretty cheap, and the amount of flamer shots even a small squad can put out makes them a danger even to armoured infantry, plus you can give them AP in melee. I don't know if there's room for them in an ultra-competitive list, but for a semi-casual game like this they're a lot of fun.
- Regular boyz are honestly OK. You do probably just want beast snaggas most of the time, but w/ the free invulns from WAAAGH the boyz are honestly not that bad of an option, and with a small buff might become a serious consideration in competitive lists (maybe a slight points reduction?)
- The Wazbom jet is a great distraction. I've always complained that all its random damage and random shots make it kind of inconsistent, but this game I just plopped it in front my middle mob and my opponent spent his entire first turn shooting it down. It's great because it makes your opponent choose between thinning out your horde and taking the risk that the jet will blow up one of his big units, or dedicating his firepower to the jet and leaving the horde (mostly) untouched.
- Honestly disappointed with the Big Choppa nobz. I used to really like these guys, but AoC really did a number on them; they barely managed to kill a squad of legionaries, with the warbosses help mind. You probably just want more meganobz instead.
- Deff dreads are great; the WAAAGH invuln is amazing on them, and backed up by a big mek repairing them they're really a nuisance for your opponent to remove.
- Warboss in mega armor is for surviving, not killing. Take a killa klaw boss if you want him to kill things (probably on a bike).
- Mega armor on the mek felt useless. It makes him more survivable and deadly, but with his spot smack dab in the middle of my deff dread/ boyz blob he didn't even get touched. Even da ded shiny shoota isn't great in a post-AoC world. Save the points and take the regular mek w/ kff if you want one, which I think is far from necessary in a world where we get free invulns for a couple turns anyways.
- SAG mek is funny, but in an ultra serious list I'd leave him at home.
I took anything with 5+ rounds and 30 people plus…. Aaand I failed, one of the dudes is 8 people “GT” with very bad scoring. I take him out.
Hell, why people call the tournament with 8 people “GT”? In such way i can play GT every weekend at home with my budies….
Fair. Summary post is appreciated -- might be worth posting # of players too, the larger the GT the more convincing the list, as even in 30 person tournaments there's a good chance you can luck out of a couple bad matchups.
@mangoblin ya pretty much has been my takeaway so far after about 4-5 games.
I tried a big blob of deff dreads backed by kff mek and makari, it was fun as hell and super tough, granted I was playing against gsc. The -2 ap scorchas on the waaagh are actually super solid too.
If you can finagle *not* using a KFF mek (and the reactive 5++) that's likely optimal -- it allows you earmark yourself down to 0 CP pregame if you want, and save yourself 85 points which does go a long way in Orks (say.. 2 Mek guns).
If what's mostly exposed in your list is a 5++ wagon and 1-2 6++ Kill Rigs it's probably ok but I imagine totally meta dependent, as some armies will light you up hard without a proper invul. Using the waaagh solely to get a 5++ kind of feels bad, though, if you aren't also connecting several units into combat.
I still wish Orks did not feel like an army that wants to go first in every game, just to get a chance to position before getting shot at.
- Mega armor on the mek felt useless. It makes him more survivable and deadly, but with his spot smack dab in the middle of my deff dread/ boyz blob he didn't even get touched. Even da ded shiny shoota isn't great in a post-AoC world. Save the points and take the regular mek w/ kff if you want one, which I think is far from necessary in a world where we get free invulns for a couple turns anyways.
For +30 points the big mek gets a power klaw, +1W +2 save and a much better ranged weapons, especially with free kustom jobs. If you run him with a squad of dreads, let him join the charge. To me there's no reason to bring the naked big mek with KFF. 85 points for a slugga/choppa nob? No thanks. Drop the KFF guy entirely if you think the megarmored mek isn't worthy.
IMO the important thing the MA big mek is bringing is a decent gun (I feel like KMB+kustom job is superior to the relic) and the ability to shrug off small arms.
You simply cannot afford to have that many points do nothing after burning through the KFF.
I'd also chip in that the MA often is the exact reason why he stays unharmed in many of my games, because people are not willing to invest anti-tank into killing a low threat model and anti-infantry shooting is wasted on him. A regular big mek is often bonked by random stubbers.
- Mega armor on the mek felt useless. It makes him more survivable and deadly, but with his spot smack dab in the middle of my deff dread/ boyz blob he didn't even get touched. Even da ded shiny shoota isn't great in a post-AoC world. Save the points and take the regular mek w/ kff if you want one, which I think is far from necessary in a world where we get free invulns for a couple turns anyways.
For +30 points the big mek gets a power klaw, +1W +2 save and a much better ranged weapons, especially with free kustom jobs. If you run him with a squad of dreads, let him join the charge. To me there's no reason to bring the naked big mek with KFF. 85 points for a slugga/choppa nob? No thanks. Drop the KFF guy entirely if you think the megarmored mek isn't worthy.
Megamek has 4" Move. For some reason. All the other mega armored units don't get that reduction tho, so it might be an oversight but it's like this rn.
- Mega armor on the mek felt useless. It makes him more survivable and deadly, but with his spot smack dab in the middle of my deff dread/ boyz blob he didn't even get touched. Even da ded shiny shoota isn't great in a post-AoC world. Save the points and take the regular mek w/ kff if you want one, which I think is far from necessary in a world where we get free invulns for a couple turns anyways.
For +30 points the big mek gets a power klaw, +1W +2 save and a much better ranged weapons, especially with free kustom jobs. If you run him with a squad of dreads, let him join the charge. To me there's no reason to bring the naked big mek with KFF. 85 points for a slugga/choppa nob? No thanks. Drop the KFF guy entirely if you think the megarmored mek isn't worthy.
Megamek has 4" Move. For some reason. All the other mega armored units don't get that reduction tho, so it might be an oversight but it's like this rn.
Yeah, it definitely sucks. But it's not like the +1''M for the cheaper big mek makes an actual difference.
Jidmah wrote: IMO the important thing the MA big mek is bringing is a decent gun (I feel like KMB+kustom job is superior to the relic) and the ability to shrug off small arms.
You simply cannot afford to have that many points do nothing after burning through the KFF.
I'd also chip in that the MA often is the exact reason why he stays unharmed in many of my games, because people are not willing to invest anti-tank into killing a low threat model and anti-infantry shooting is wasted on him. A regular big mek is often bonked by random stubbers.
Couldn't agree more. An Extra Kustom KMB and a Tellyport Blasta is pretty gnarly firepower for the points, on a platform that has decent survivability and respectable melee output to finish off whatever survives.
Mine rides with my Trukkboys to counteract the slow walking speed, so once they jump out the Mek is right in the heart of the enemy and gets to act as a pseudo-buggy.
I've found he tends to get splatted the turn after he blows something up, but it's enough firepower diverted away from something else that I don't really care.
It’s good.. honestly goff pressure has a few units you can play with.. a lot of the variant builds might play better into certain missions. I do like the battlewagon deffrolla w forktress and 2x Killrig setup it does bleed bring it down but there is a lot of mission play in that category. Goff pressure is a fun list to experiment with and have slightly different successful setups…
The only thing I might consider changing in that list is dropping ard case of battlewagon and the pk on kommando unit to put a kff on one wazbom…
It’s up to you but The 5++ is huge on the wazbom survivability and I don’t think t7 to t8 on battlewagon is as big.
It’s good.. honestly goff pressure has a few units you can play with.. a lot of the variant builds might play better into certain missions. I do like the battlewagon deffrolla w forktress and 2x Killrig setup it does bleed bring it down but there is a lot of mission play in that category. Goff pressure is a fun list to experiment with and have slightly different successful setups…
The only thing I might consider changing in that list is dropping ard case of battlewagon and the pk on kommando unit to put a kff on one wazbom…
It’s up to you but The 5++ is huge on the wazbom survivability and I don’t think t7 to t8 on battlewagon is as big.
Yeah it's a tough call. Waaagh *does* gives you an invul which is why I think it's feasible to forego it, but I thought the same thing, at least 1 should have a KFF.
In this particular matchup I think most of what I'd see in anti tank is Melta (Eradicators) or Plasma inceptors so that T8 is definitely relevant, and there's where your best anti marine hammer is going (the mega nobs). But I'll give it a think.
It’s good.. honestly goff pressure has a few units you can play with.. a lot of the variant builds might play better into certain missions. I do like the battlewagon deffrolla w forktress and 2x Killrig setup it does bleed bring it down but there is a lot of mission play in that category. Goff pressure is a fun list to experiment with and have slightly different successful setups…
The only thing I might consider changing in that list is dropping ard case of battlewagon and the pk on kommando unit to put a kff on one wazbom… It’s up to you but The 5++ is huge on the wazbom survivability and I don’t think t7 to t8 on battlewagon is as big.
Yeah it's a tough call. Waaagh *does* gives you an invul which is why I think it's feasible to forego it, but I thought the same thing, at least 1 should have a KFF.
In this particular matchup I think most of what I'd see in anti tank is Melta (Eradicators) or Plasma inceptors so that T8 is definitely relevant, and there's where your best anti marine hammer is going (the mega nobs). But I'll give it a think.
But what if you dont get turn 1 and he shoots down your wazboms? You dont have your invul by the time he goes first. Or you get turn 1 but dont want to call a waaagh, then he can shoot them down when he gets his turn as well.
I agree a Wazbom KFF is really well spent points for the survivability.
I definitely don’t think 2 kff on 2x wazboms is needed anymore mainly because of the waaagh…
But honestly even if I go first I don’t want to use waaagh until the second turn anyway which means the wazboms are just easy pickings. I do agree the ard case is decent but the forktress is mainly there just to transport and protect infantry and if your opponent is into meltagun range then you are close enough anyway to make it into charge range. Disembark 3in, move 5in, adv ~3.5in, charge ~8.
You actually want your opponent to shoot at your forktress it’s the least impactful threat. Even with 5++ on those wazboms you would be hard pressed to have them after turn3. They are such a massive shooting threat to everything that your opponent will gun for them everytime.
At the risk of incurring the wrath of the WAAAGH from all propa Orky Dakkanotzes for off-topic spamming I just wanted to invite you all to Dakka Fiction where an ork drinking game is on the go.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/804886.page It’s a bit of story writing fun.
You just show up. Tell us who your ork is, what he’s about and importantly what he’s drinking.
Sorry, I haven’t played a game of 40k since 6th ed. My old orks are in a box in bits. Not very tactical I know.
It’s good.. honestly goff pressure has a few units you can play with.. a lot of the variant builds might play better into certain missions. I do like the battlewagon deffrolla w forktress and 2x Killrig setup it does bleed bring it down but there is a lot of mission play in that category. Goff pressure is a fun list to experiment with and have slightly different successful setups…
The only thing I might consider changing in that list is dropping ard case of battlewagon and the pk on kommando unit to put a kff on one wazbom…
It’s up to you but The 5++ is huge on the wazbom survivability and I don’t think t7 to t8 on battlewagon is as big.
Yeah it's a tough call. Waaagh *does* gives you an invul which is why I think it's feasible to forego it, but I thought the same thing, at least 1 should have a KFF.
In this particular matchup I think most of what I'd see in anti tank is Melta (Eradicators) or Plasma inceptors so that T8 is definitely relevant, and there's where your best anti marine hammer is going (the mega nobs). But I'll give it a think.
But what if you dont get turn 1 and he shoots down your wazboms? You dont have your invul by the time he goes first.
Or you get turn 1 but dont want to call a waaagh, then he can shoot them down when he gets his turn as well.
I agree a Wazbom KFF is really well spent points for the survivability.
Alright I'm somewhat convinced.
The tradeoff is a klaw (not a big deal on a squad I'm just using to screen anyway) and some survivability on the wagon for a huge durability buff on both wazboms -- I can buy that's probably a good trade.
I'm thinking the KFF on the non-Boom boy unit? Obviously they'll wanna target down the boom boy, but it gives incentive to go after the weaker one first, or if they pop the stronger one, the other one is still around with a KFF.
theCrowe wrote: At the risk of incurring the wrath of the WAAAGH from all propa Orky Dakkanotzes for off-topic spamming I just wanted to invite you all to Dakka Fiction where an ork drinking game is on the go.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/804886.page It’s a bit of story writing fun.
You just show up. Tell us who your ork is, what he’s about and importantly what he’s drinking.
Sorry, I haven’t played a game of 40k since 6th ed. My old orks are in a box in bits. Not very tactical I know.
Thanks and sorry for the interruption.
This essentially is the ork chat thread anyways, no worries
Domandi wrote: Interesting list. Is Zagstruk worth it without a unit of stormboyz?
He's actually kind of more of a fire and forget missile, rather than a unit you take to support stormboyz since most of the time you're mainly taking advantage of the fact that he has FLY to get over terrain, the auto-6" advance move for a guaranteed 18"+2D6" threat range during a WAAAGH! so you can have them take out a key character or enemy unit in the backline. His aura for stormboyz is more or less just a slight bonus if you happen to take any units of 10 with him, most of the time I see most people just grabbing min squads of stormboyz to do actions with.
I see. Very interesting. I never really thought about his versatility. He could really mangle small back units, or be a huge backup boost to a combat that might not in the orks favor. Would it be worth it to give him the goff Da Iron Gob for the mortals after combat?
Domandi wrote: I see. Very interesting. I never really thought about his versatility. He could really mangle small back units, or be a huge backup boost to a combat that might not in the orks favor. Would it be worth it to give him the goff Da Iron Gob for the mortals after combat?
Sorry if this has been discussed previously.
Are you talking about the Goff relic? Just a heads up that you can't give special characters relics, so you wouldn't be able to do that.
theCrowe wrote: At the risk of incurring the wrath of the WAAAGH from all propa Orky Dakkanotzes for off-topic spamming I just wanted to invite you all to Dakka Fiction where an ork drinking game is on the go.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/804886.page It’s a bit of story writing fun.
You just show up. Tell us who your ork is, what he’s about and importantly what he’s drinking.
Sorry, I haven’t played a game of 40k since 6th ed. My old orks are in a box in bits. Not very tactical I know.
Thanks and sorry for the interruption.
This essentially is the ork chat thread anyways, no worries
Cheers. I’m just hoping if we get a few more punters in the doors on this it’ll be a lot of fun.
I might even learn something about ork tactics in the process.
Domandi wrote: I see. Very interesting. I never really thought about his versatility. He could really mangle small back units, or be a huge backup boost to a combat that might not in the orks favor. Would it be worth it to give him the goff Da Iron Gob for the mortals after combat?
Sorry if this has been discussed previously.
Are you talking about the Goff relic? Just a heads up that you can't give special characters relics, so you wouldn't be able to do that.
CaptainO wrote:Interesting that Rich was able to run so many characters and still win.
I've found reasonable success by doubling down on characters. I run six characters, and enough vehicles to force the opponent to have to decide whether they want to focus on maxing Assassinate or Bring It Down. The other choice then gets to clean up while it gets relatively ignored.
Domandi wrote:Interesting list. Is Zagstruk worth it without a unit of stormboyz?
Definitely. As others have said he's a good missile unit for eating up exposed characters or an MSU unit on objective. I mostly use him alongside a Killa Klaw Bikerboss and together they hit really hard and can basically be wherever they want, especially on the first Waaagh turn.
Ya I'm running 8 characters. I'm going to be throwing ghaz (and makhari) and my beastboss forward anyway. 2 weirdboyz into the centre to buff give me an option for psychic secondaries.
I don't know many lists that don't give up 13 VP for assassinate.
Battlewagons are going to act as emergency getaway vehicles as my army gradually disintegrates..
How are people who don't play weirdboyz find picking a third secondary?
personally, im of the mind you might as well just feed into one secondary expecting it to be taken.
I dont think any army except maybe Custodes can get away with a list that doesnt easily max out a secondary somewhere.
CaptainO wrote: Ya I'm running 8 characters. I'm going to be throwing ghaz (and makhari) and my beastboss forward anyway. 2 weirdboyz into the centre to buff give me an option for psychic secondaries.
I don't know many lists that don't give up 13 VP for assassinate.
Battlewagons are going to act as emergency getaway vehicles as my army gradually disintegrates..
How are people who don't play weirdboyz find picking a third secondary?
I typically go for with Engage and Good Bitz and then one of Assassinate/Bring It Down/Biggest and Best/Grind Them Down/Abhor the Witch.
Vineheart01 wrote: personally, im of the mind you might as well just feed into one secondary expecting it to be taken.
I dont think any army except maybe Custodes can get away with a list that doesnt easily max out a secondary somewhere.
Ya I think you're right. Embrace the suck. I did write this list which doesn't give up "as many" to assassinate 15 vrs 25.
It's built for engage/greentide and looks to maximise get the good bits while it allows me to take abhor if needed. I like the 3 deffdreads adding some additional cc punch but miss the psychic secondaries.
Have people played grey knights or tsons with and without psykers and how have they faired without.
Also have people found psychic secondaries are easily blocked by sisters/custodes anti psycher stuff
1st game was a 20-0 victory vs tsons.
And 2d one was a minor 7-13 loss vs black templars.
However, I forgot to shoot my scrapjets, forgot about blasts and made a bunch of other mistakes in a 2d game. Oh, well. Need more practice.
Overall, ghaz was quite solid both for his waagh, makari fnp and also cp. He killed some stuff in mellee but was not enough to wreck bt blobs. And I failed a bunch of charges to back him up, sadly...
Makari is a must with ghaz. Not only did he grant 6+++ (that sadly didn't work too well) but also absorbed some damage with 2++ and, hilarioisly, killed some stuff with his mortal wounds in mellee.
Scrapjets - great as always.
Squigbuggy - I forgot about blasts, so, I rolled 3-4 shots for all the weapons all game long, yet it must have shot 18 times vs bt... Still, it's not amazing. Due to fnp the enemies have.
Kans are, for some reason, a fire magnet. I have no idea why. Maybe cause they're a squad and stuff like eradicators like shooting vehicle squads. They just died early on both games, absorbing some antitank.
Deff dread with free +3 movement is decent. I think on painting a 2d one. Just relatively cheap, choppy, and can actually reach something unlike kans. Maybe a 2d solo dread is gona be better than 3 kans.
Boyz and grots. I was hesitant about Boyz but for 8 ppm they're passable as rare source of obsec. They do force a couple of wounds here and there. Very easy to kill but... I thought they'd be worse. I think, I'm gona run more Boyz now. Just not go overboard with them. 2-3 squads and we're set. As for grots they were good for grt the God bits, that I was sceptical at first but than happened to like. Nice choice for this alone. Maybe, even for the green tide secondary...
Boom wagon was very underwhelming. It is relatively durable, with free 5++, but it just doesn't so little damage. I was expecting it to do more. Also, 3 VP for bring it down... Harsh! Maybe just take something else instead of it. Maybe even regular transport wagon.
Min walking meganobz. I was not expecting much but they actually were...decent! Goff meganobz were dealing some damage during WAAAAGH and even rerolled when close to ghaz. I guess, they're just ok when you don't overinvest. I used to take k-skorchas and trukks but they ended up too expensive. The cheap foot ones are actually not too bad! And I'm happy cause I have close to 20. So, some will see some play!
As for the secondaries, get the good bits was a good alternative to banners. They're both good but in some cases bits are better. Especially for tourneya where you might get clocked earlier.
Biggest and best is very situational but when the enemy is right, it's not too bad for Ghaz! I even shot his gun at a dread to get 2 extra VP
Killing more stuff in mellee is very risky... I shouldn't have taken it vs bt. Just underestimated the insane durability and hth damage that those deal when buffed up.
Green tide is a nice situational secondary, actually. For when the enemy can't kill your background grots like when there's a place to hide or not enough speedy/shooty units to hunt them down.
Overall I think I'd be able to win even vs bt if I:
Held back and didn't charge for the 1st turn
Didn't forget about blasts and just rolled those vs his blobs, halving them before engaging in mellee... Or at least rolled 1st turn Not happy about fw wagon and kans. Got to think what's to take. Maybe also change squigbuggy. I've just never got them to work...
Oh, just wanted to add that, while discussing the fight with a bt opponent we figured out that not only have I forgotten some of my rules but also, he read some of his wrong and got more attacks than he should have, used grenades in mellee and resurrected grimaldus whereas he had to die. Also, used some better saves than he should have. We calculated what would have happened if he played by the rules, and it'd be exactly a draw 10-10. So, yeah, not a bad result even for such a game where I made a huge mistake and rushed in preamptively.
Overall, we're all n a good place with goff lists ATM.
New Ork FAQ came in alongside an update to the points changes. Unfortunately, I think enough ruckus was raised that Kustom Jobs are back explicitly with points costs. It was nice while it lasted boyz.
On the sort of plus side, they removed the frankly out of nowhere nerf for Freebooterz so their klan trait isn't complete garbage.
CaptainO wrote: Did you take the "free" nitro squigs for the buggy?
Did you manage to max out get the good bits?
Do you engage ever?
I took a nitro squig but just happen to deal 0 damage with squigbuggy shooting the 3d game in a row. I guess, it's just my luck. It just happens to kill stuff in mellee rather than with shooting. I just wiff all the shots and than roll in and one-shot enemy characters left and right...
I maxed them out both games. I'd max out banners vs ts too. But good bits were really good vs bt where I could not engage mid board proerky and had 2 points close to dz.
I always engage. If you're talking about mellee. Tho scrapjets are as killly in mellee as they are in shooting. Especially, goff ones. If that,'s what you mean. It's just not wise to rush in all the time but I guess I was too tired to think for the 2d game. Was too hot and my head was aching all ready so, I just saw some Marines nearby and charged in. Should have had a turn of shooting beforehand. Also, happened to fail 4 out of 8 charges when I needed like 6". It happens too.
Beardedragon wrote: Where do you see them removing the nerf to freebootas? I cant see freebootas being mentioned at all
That's the point - the updated nerf rules have been deleted, now there is no update to basic codex rules for freebootas.
Exactly. It was probably from some sort of earlier draft when Freebooterz speedwaaagh was too strong a year ago when there was no limit on buggies or aircraft units that somehow slipped in and they didn't notice for some reason.
CaptainO wrote: Did you take the "free" nitro squigs for the buggy?
Did you manage to max out get the good bits?
Do you engage ever?
I took a nitro squig but just happen to deal 0 damage with squigbuggy shooting the 3d game in a row. I guess, it's just my luck. It just happens to kill stuff in mellee rather than with shooting. I just wiff all the shots and than roll in and one-shot enemy characters left and right...
I maxed them out both games. I'd max out banners vs ts too. But good bits were really good vs bt where I could not engage mid board proerky and had 2 points close to dz.
I always engage. If you're talking about mellee. Tho scrapjets are as killly in mellee as they are in shooting. Especially, goff ones. If that,'s what you mean. It's just not wise to rush in all the time but I guess I was too tired to think for the 2d game. Was too hot and my head was aching all ready so, I just saw some Marines nearby and charged in. Should have had a turn of shooting beforehand. Also, happened to fail 4 out of 8 charges when I needed like 6". It happens too.
Apologies by "do you engage" I meant take engage on all fronts as a secondary.
Squigbuggy died a death today as Kustom jobs started coating points.
Freeboota Speedmob with strong planes and antiobswc-obsec bikerboss works fine.
Kustom jobs scattered over the whole army = big mess on the table what is what.
So I like this very much.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Anyway, I ´m happy I skip playing over the summer. This “new rules every two weeks” summer garbage - same as the last summer - is pretty stupid.
As an Ork player It's very difficult to resist engaging the opponent when you can. It's part of the reason I've built my army to score lots at the start. It means in a tournament the pressure is off with a timer and I can make speculative charges to to mess with my opponents game plan.
CaptainO wrote: Did you take the "free" nitro squigs for the buggy?
Did you manage to max out get the good bits?
Do you engage ever?
I took a nitro squig but just happen to deal 0 damage with squigbuggy shooting the 3d game in a row. I guess, it's just my luck. It just happens to kill stuff in mellee rather than with shooting. I just wiff all the shots and than roll in and one-shot enemy characters left and right...
I maxed them out both games. I'd max out banners vs ts too. But good bits were really good vs bt where I could not engage mid board proerky and had 2 points close to dz.
I always engage. If you're talking about mellee. Tho scrapjets are as killly in mellee as they are in shooting. Especially, goff ones. If that,'s what you mean. It's just not wise to rush in all the time but I guess I was too tired to think for the 2d game. Was too hot and my head was aching all ready so, I just saw some Marines nearby and charged in. Should have had a turn of shooting beforehand. Also, happened to fail 4 out of 8 charges when I needed like 6". It happens too.
Apologies by "do you engage" I meant take engage on all fronts as a secondary.
Squigbuggy died a death today as Kustom jobs started coating points.
No, I've been focusing on good bits, being the biggest and the best (ghaz) and dealing a lot of wounds to an enemy or killing more stuff in mellee with orks (which was not very successful and I don't suggest taking it as it's too risky and swingy vs most enemies, but occasionally ok).
I'm just trying stuff and it seems that good bits is a nice alternative to banners, but they're both great with goff lists and bad with speed freak lists. Biggest and da best is fun with ghaz but is risky indeed. You won't be getting 15 pts with it running ghaz, so, probably not best for large tourneys where you got to go 100 all the time, but ok for your local games where you ain't aiming to crush the enemy at all costs to get that 100 every game.
As for engage on all fronts I tend to not take it because you don't always play 5 whole turns in your local tourneys and get clocked earlier. Especially in close fought games. So, you just don't get all the needed points. Also, I don't like being forced to be held down for my movement. It's especially annoying with only counting for when you're away from other quarters. And it's too handicapping after a turn or two, when you don't have enough units to just hang around shooting and not fighting what ever needs killing.
Grimskul wrote: New Ork FAQ came in alongside an update to the points changes. Unfortunately, I think enough ruckus was raised that Kustom Jobs are back explicitly with points costs. It was nice while it lasted boyz.
On the sort of plus side, they removed the frankly out of nowhere nerf for Freebooterz so their klan trait isn't complete garbage.
Kustom jobs was expected but sad they didn’t adjust the costs at least… they were nice on a few units. hopefully they take note for the next codex and just make these a lot cheaper it allows them to push specific units without making them abusable and spammable.
Glad freebooter is okay again this helps speedmob the most imho.
I mean I’m just happy the devs even looked at the ork faq and mfm points… unfortunately they are fine with how everything works.
Domandi wrote: Interesting list. Is Zagstruk worth it without a unit of stormboyz?
Zagstruk is one of the best units in the codex honestly. He is a warboss but doesn't have the warboss keyword so you can take him along with your warlord. I routinely load him into my Trukkboyz trukk since he takes up exactly 2 spots. Turn 1 he hops out before the trukk moves, does his full normal move, auto 6 advance and poof he is 3' from the enemies deployment zone! He is not epic in CC but he is damn good for his points, compare him to a similar priced dread and hes way better. And during a WAAAGH turn he has a 5++ and a 5+++ so he becomes fairly durable.
And the bad news, GW's new FAQ/whatever just returned prices to ork kustom jobs making them all useless again. Good Work GW.
I'd say a solo nitro squigs Squigbuggy is probably still worth it if you direct fire with it, and have the points and slot for it without giving up on something like a scrapjet.
It wouldn't be something I'd bend over backwards to fit into my list, but it has a little niche it fits into.
And the bad news, GW's new FAQ/whatever just returned prices to ork kustom jobs making them all useless again. Good Work GW.
I'll still pay for one truck to have that 5+ invulnerable save. It was points well spent for my force before & since neither my force nor my opponents have changed I have no reason to think it won't be just as valuable now.
It was just free for a few weeks.
If you run ghaz in a supreme command and have a freebootas outrider next to it, the outrider remains freebootas while ghaz keeps his kulture as well, yes?
Going back to toying with running an old school freebootas list but with ghaz.
Also if I ran ghaz in the freebootas detatchment he simply loses his kulture im assuming while they keep theirs? How does that work when hes the warlord? Hes goff, they remain freebootas?
Orks are one of the few factions that dont lose rules with mixed clans between detachments so yes, Ghaz would have Goff rules and Freeboota detachment would have Freeboota rules.
It only breaks if you take non-exempted units in the Freeboota that arent Freeboota detachment specifically.
And of course that limits your relics/traits to Goff, and only Goff can equip them so nobody can use them except Ghaz himself (and Makari if you bring him, neither can use relics but do have traits). The non-clan specific stuff can still be used by the Freebootas though.
Do we have access to advance and charge for vehicles? I always thought the bikerboss could aura this for buggies and dreads, but can't seem to find anything like it.
Singleton Mosby wrote: Do we have access to advance and charge for vehicles? I always thought the bikerboss could aura this for buggies and dreads, but can't seem to find anything like it.
Grimskul wrote: Yeah, it's a shame it doesn't affect at least WALKERZ units too because Gork knows we need some love for the Dred Mob lists.
We just need a proper codex
I’d love to see a dread Waagh with a BigMek able to call it.
I still don’t know why we can’t have both a speedboss and warboss. How is this different then multiple doctrines or canticles or whatever. The limit is just dumb. Let me have a speedboss, warboss and mekboss.
Let me chose when to call each waaagh and only have 1 Waagh active at a time.
Let specialist mobs stack w kultur.. allow multiple units to become a specialist unit in the detachment but only 1 type of specialist mob per detachment.
Let a detachment have 1 free kustom job. And allow a Mek to let you choose a second free kustom job.
Orks would be much cooler with the ability to Customize units this way. Have characters become unit improving such as runtherders, meks, painboys, Waagh banner, nobs, spanners, etc..
Vineheart01 wrote: Orks are one of the few factions that dont lose rules with mixed clans between detachments so yes, Ghaz would have Goff rules and Freeboota detachment would have Freeboota rules.
It only breaks if you take non-exempted units in the Freeboota that arent Freeboota detachment specifically.
And of course that limits your relics/traits to Goff, and only Goff can equip them so nobody can use them except Ghaz himself (and Makari if you bring him, neither can use relics but do have traits). The non-clan specific stuff can still be used by the Freebootas though.
yea. well its sad to lose the infantry becomes obsec" stratagem from freebootas, but next to that its fine.
I just want to try out a normal speed mob list with vehicles, 30 grots and ghaz + a weirdboy for the option of going interrogate.
Im also toying a bit with the idea of 2x hunta rigs or kill rigs as distraction carnifexes next to my buggies and grot mega tanks
There really isn’t much of a reason to use huntarigs as they can’t adv and charge, have significantly worse damage potential and isn’t that much cheaper..
At best you want to avoid the extra character vp or don’t want to have a psyker in your list. But the increase capacity isn’t really useful either.
Jidmah wrote: A hunta rig also is the same price as a BW with fortress, which has better transport capacity and not locked into beastsnaggas.
Hunta rigs are just a solid 40 points above what they should cost.
I’m still not sure what tut reasoning is for making it beastsnagga locked. It makes no sense.
To be fair ork keywords are a bit of a mess. Beastsnagga should have just been a keyword for buffs like the snakebite kultur.
Jidmah wrote: A hunta rig also is the same price as a BW with fortress, which has better transport capacity and not locked into beastsnaggas.
Hunta rigs are just a solid 40 points above what they should cost.
yea but i didnt want to have snagga boys inside the rigs in this case. Just purely as a distraction carnifex that deals good damage in melee.
And since im gonna call a waaagh (im assuming) by my turn 1 given that i have buggies and grot mega tanks, i didnt expect myself to be able to reach with an advance and charge anyway.
But i just kept the idea open for hunta rigs, i myself, is more inclined to use a kill rig too.
So something along the line of
Supreme detatchment with ghaz as goff
Outrider and potentially patrol with freebootas, 2 kill rigs to push enemies and draw fire, some grot mega tanks, buggies, wazboms, what ever combination of this that makes sense. and 30 grots, 10 to hold the backline, 20 to do good bits.
Maybe the idea of a kill rig distraction carnifex is silly when i put the points together, so i might remove it.
Yeah i initially thought the Hunta Rig was going to have different weapons, but its literally the same thing minus the Psyker part and what comes with that with a measily +5 transport capacity.
Thats nothing. I have no idea why it exists when its that drastically weaker for pennies less.
And its Beastsnagga locked because GW is stupid and thinks that will drive sales if they lock transports to certain units.
Giving the hunta an additional rule will go a long way. As happens with the Bonebreaker, which has the same equip options as the battlewagon but has an extra rule for it.
Also, increase cap to 20, to carry a full blob of snaggas would differenciate it.
It still bugs me the anomalous and forced racism between snaggas and the rest of the boys. Doc's rules are a fine example
Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote: Giving the hunta an additional rule will go a long way. As happens with the Bonebreaker, which has the same equip options as the battlewagon but has an extra rule for it.
Also, increase cap to 20, to carry a full blob of snaggas would differenciate it.
It still bugs me the anomalous and forced racism between snaggas and the rest of the boys. Doc's rules are a fine example
It's pretty much them copy-pasting the issues and divisions created between PRIMARIS and Firstborn marines when it comes to Primaris only tanks being able to carry Primaris while Land Raiders and Drop Pods can't carry Primaris. It's needless silo-ing of units because of GW's bizarre design philosophy of restricting subfactions to themselves.
Its a restriction that would make sense for starships, because the docking clamps werent compatible or something.
But for people literally standing on a platform holding onto a handle or sitting in a seat it makes 0 sense.
I actually wonder if Primaris marines would get an unusual boost in threat if they axed that restriction. I know for orks right now its extremely annoying because no shooty units allowed in the killrig.
I mean I kinda understood primarus because it felt like they wanted to discontinue first born marines and force people to buy new primarus stuff…
But they literally made a brand new ork boy box… I mean things like painboss only working on beastsnagga makes no sense ffs mad doc is a painboss!!, kill/huntarig being beastsnagga only transport when ork boys should be slightly smaller makes no sense. Just needless restrictions on the ork codex like the warboss/speedboss change. I actually hope for a 10th Ed soon so they can try to fix our codex which is one of the worst written books… so many mistakes…
I don't want to be a doomsayer, but what makes you think that the same four rules writers who have not cared about ork rules at all for the last ten years will suddenly sit down and passionately work on delivering the best they can?
At this point, I'm not sure I want a next codex at all.
I really don't think our codex is that bad. Couple of varied options (especially now that freebootas are back on the menu) that can be seen popping up on goonhammers weekly break down.
I think we're currently in a well balanced spot which is amazing considering how many moving parts there are in 9th edition.
Our secondaries are quality, our characters are good, the waagh/great waaagh is actually good now. The famine of CP these days plays well with us because we don't have many strats to use them on.
Art of war have just released a full Ork unit tier list which is a good watch. As with all advice take it with a pinch of salt but the analysis is pretty high quality as one would expect from the AoW team.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I get they made mistakes but none of them are game/army ruining.
Jidmah wrote: I don't want to be a doomsayer, but what makes you think that the same four rules writers who have not cared about ork rules at all for the last ten years will suddenly sit down and passionately work on delivering the best they can?
At this point, I'm not sure I want a next codex at all.
It feels like they are starting to get better idea of what to do… 9th edition had a lot of changes in how it’s played to score more like the tournament scene and that changed the way the game played and what units were good.
I mean I don’t really like their constant 1 upmanship in rules writing. Armor save<AP, invul><ignore invuls, fnp><mortal wounds><mortal wound save, wound cap><ignore wound cap…. Etc etc
The way codex are designed it’s always the next codex that more powerful
Then last..
But I think they are getting better nephilim was a decent attempt to patch the mess… >
Automatically Appended Next Post:
CaptainO wrote: I really don't think our codex is that bad. Couple of varied options (especially now that freebootas are back on the menu) that can be seen popping up on goonhammers weekly break down.
I think we're currently in a well balanced spot which is amazing considering how many moving parts there are in 9th edition.
Our secondaries are quality, our characters are good, the waagh/great waaagh is actually good now. The famine of CP these days plays well with us because we don't have many strats to use them on.
Art of war have just released a full Ork unit tier list which is a good watch. As with all advice take it with a pinch of salt but the analysis is pretty high quality as one would expect from the AoW team.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I get they made mistakes but none of them are game/army ruining.
Technically I agree ork datasheets as a whole aren’t bad..
Main ork codex issues:
Moral is huge problem and kills greentide
Strats are way overpriced and majority suck
unneeded restriction on options and units…(kustom jobs, specialist mobs, warboss/speedboss limit, buggy limit, beastsnagga nonsense, the entire Dakka profile is just unneeded should have just stayed assault, rokkits should have stayed assault, burnas kept thier melee profile) I still don’t know why they took slot of unit abilities and just made them overpriced Strats like breaking heads for 2cp!!!!
Fix those and most datasheets are fine
Walkers could also use an army wide buff so dreadmob is good again.. but walkers are mostly bad in all armies…still wouldn’t mind a dread Waagh ability on big meks or mekboss.
CaptainO wrote: I really don't think our codex is that bad. Couple of varied options (especially now that freebootas are back on the menu) that can be seen popping up on goonhammers weekly break down.
I think we're currently in a well balanced spot which is amazing considering how many moving parts there are in 9th edition.
Our secondaries are quality, our characters are good, the waagh/great waaagh is actually good now. The famine of CP these days plays well with us because we don't have many strats to use them on.
Art of war have just released a full Ork unit tier list which is a good watch. As with all advice take it with a pinch of salt but the analysis is pretty high quality as one would expect from the AoW team.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I get they made mistakes but none of them are game/army ruining.
I also took a look on Art of War tier list.
At most was not surprised with best pick except Bigmek in mega armor.
To them big mek in mega armour is overpriced with KFF. But normal big mek with KFF is top tier.
I also finally might have a match soon, going to test out squig buggies and nob on smash squig. Bit surprised many people haven't tried out double nob on smash squig. It averages 5MW on charge and if you destroy unit there is a stratagem to charge again, you can, if you set it up, zip through the lines to the back with around 36inch threat range?! I think that is what they mention.
My game will be casual and mostly to teach a new bro. But i will still try and see how they work in like a 1000pts game.
MADRID GT (60 players, 8 rounds) - Alberto Nicolas – Orks – 3rd Place
Blood Axe modification of Goff lists with Bestboss on Saur, deouble detach, double killrig, double trukk, double squighog and tons of small infantry. Interesting!
Very typical heavy goff list with ghazzy with double wazboom, triple squighog, deffdread and MANs and all other typical stuff.
Spoiler:
Note: Assuming this is over-points because it was in the window where Kustom Jobs didn’t have a cost listed. RIP to that.
++ Battalion Detachment -3CP (Orks) [98 PL, 1CP, 1,789pts] ++
+ Configuration +
Clan Kultur: Goffs
Detachment Command Cost [-3CP]
Gametype: 4. Chapter Approved: War Zone Nephilim
+ HQ +
Painboss [5 PL, -2CP, 80pts]: 2. Big Gob, Power Snappa, Stratagem: Big Boss, Stratagem: Extra Gubbinz, Super Cybork Body
I also took a look on Art of War tier list.
At most was not surprised with best pick except Bigmek in mega armor.
To them big mek in mega armour is overpriced with KFF. But normal big mek with KFF is top tier.
The reasoning they gave is fine, though.
Basically you're paying 30 points for something you're already oversaturated on -- Klaws. The Big Mek kind of sucks in combat even with all the extra trimmings, and if you want to make it better you need to CP dump into it which isn't really the best place to put relics and WLTs.
85 points for the reactive 5++ KFF though is still worth considering, as after it pops off, it can camp your home objective. Just spend those 30 points on a separate mega nob or something instead, which is probably just better overall.
Singleton Mosby wrote: What is the consensus on the Blood axes "benifts from light conver trait" when it comes to vehicles. Do they benefit or not?
Are you you talking about their klan trait of being outside of 18" of enemy shooting considered being in light cover? Because yes? There's no keyword or unit type distinction when it comes to this.
Singleton Mosby wrote: What is the consensus on the Blood axes "benifts from light conver trait" when it comes to vehicles. Do they benefit or not?
Are you you talking about their klan trait of being outside of 18" of enemy shooting considered being in light cover? Because yes? There's no keyword or unit type distinction when it comes to this.
Yes, that's what I meant. A mate said vehicles don't benefit, but I can't find why they shouldn't.
Singleton Mosby wrote: What is the consensus on the Blood axes "benifts from light conver trait" when it comes to vehicles. Do they benefit or not?
Are you you talking about their klan trait of being outside of 18" of enemy shooting considered being in light cover? Because yes? There's no keyword or unit type distinction when it comes to this.
Yes, that's what I meant. A mate said vehicles don't benefit, but I can't find why they shouldn't.
Your mate is talking out his backside, it hasn't ever been that way for Orks, the only time there was a distinction between traits for vehicles and non-vehicles was the old chapter tactics rules for marines for their first release back in 8th ed and I believe for CSM as well. I guess IG do too to some extent, but it's basically a 8th ed holdover that never applied to Orks.
Even in oldschool 40k, Vehicles have never been explicitly denied cover.
Theyve been denied being granted cover from certain sources such as area terrain, but never "If its cover, thats a no"
Tomsug wrote: MADRID GT (60 players, 8 rounds) - Alberto Nicolas – Orks – 3rd Place
Blood Axe modification of Goff lists with Bestboss on Saur, deouble detach, double killrig, double trukk, double squighog and tons of small infantry. Interesting!
Yes, that's what I meant. A mate said vehicles don't benefit, but I can't find why they shouldn't.
Ah , your mate is confusing with the Terrain features (which can't provide light cover to vehicle). But there is no rule that says vehicles can't get light cover from other means.
Just look at the specialist mob Flyboyz: this specialism wouldn't make sense if vehicle can't benefit cover.
Yes, that's what I meant. A mate said vehicles don't benefit, but I can't find why they shouldn't.
Ah , your mate is confusing with the Terrain features (which can't provide light cover to vehicle). But there is no rule that says vehicles can't get light cover from other means.
Just look at the specialist mob Flyboyz: this specialism wouldn't make sense if vehicle can't benefit cover.
Providing ork rules as a measure of something making sense or not ain't the most convincing move ever. Considering stuff like trukkboyz that couldn't have used trukks till the recent errata.
The kans we're pretty nice to march up the center with ghaz and try and proc +1 with their rl. Probably would drop makari next time since he can only fnp ghaz and then maybe another kan so I can take a bm kff or sag.
Also it might be because I play against mostly imperium but I have been fairly underwhelmed by the squig buggies in comparison to the scrapjets and dragstas. Poking out of los with the heavy squig launcher is nice but it never really amounts to anything meaningful and then bringing it up close it's decent but I feel like I'd rather just have a full squad of deffkoptas at that point.
The kans we're pretty nice to march up the center with ghaz and try and proc +1 with their rl. Probably would drop makari next time since he can only fnp ghaz and then maybe another kan so I can take a bm kff or sag.
Also it might be because I play against mostly imperium but I have been fairly underwhelmed by the squig buggies in comparison to the scrapjets and dragstas. Poking out of los with the heavy squig launcher is nice but it never really amounts to anything meaningful and then bringing it up close it's decent but I feel like I'd rather just have a full squad of deffkoptas at that point.
Was ghaz worth it for freebootas? If I get it right, you loose the ability to take clan relics. Also, he only buffs goffs.
Were kanz any good in your list? Were 15 pt rokkits worth it? I've never had success with kan rokkits. They're slow and got to advance to reach combat t2. Also, 50pt is a bit too much for what you get out of them. Regular 35 pt bigahootas or 40pt skorchas were feeling better in my games. Also, I try not to get more than 3 cause of morale issues. You can't break heads and 2pts to save a kan is stiff.
Squigbuggies have always been disappointing in my games. Even at their prime. What about dragstas? In my experience, scrap jets are just the best overall. Best shooting, best mellee, 9 wounds. Well worth 100 pts.
How were the 2 blastajets doing? I'm about to buy 2 from a tourney player who stopped running orks after the nerfs (basically, a month after release) and switched to necrons. I'm running goffs, tho. So, not sure jets are worth it for how much they cost. But maybe next edition... Might run a bomber tho!
Was ghaz worth it for freebootas? If I get it right, you loose the ability to take clan relics. Also, he only buffs goffs.
ghaz was worth it for the 5++ and attack/strength buff on all the vehicles I'd say. At first I was gonna take a deffkilla but then I'd feel obligated to take a kff big mek I feel like, so at that point I figured I met as well spend an extra 90pts for a much better beat stick and the attack/strength buff from waaagh. I'll probably experiment next time with a non ghaz version though and see how it compares.
Were kanz any good in your list? Were 15 pt rokkits worth it? I've never had success with kan rokkits. They're slow and got to advance to reach combat t2. Also, 50pt is a bit too much for what you get out of them. Regular 35 pt bigahootas or 40pt skorchas were feeling better in my games. Also, I try not to get more than 3 cause of morale issues. You can't break heads and 2pts to save a kan is stiff.
It was hard to tell from this match since my mate was playing aggressively and they only got one turn of shooting before being tied up in cc the rest of the game. They did manage to pluck the last couple of wounds off a storm raven in turn 1 so not completely useless. More than likely skorchas would be a better investment I'd think. Overall though I was happy with them and was able to fend off a strike squad and champion that had multicharged them.
Squigbuggies have always been disappointing in my games. Even at their prime. What about dragstas? In my experience, scrap jets are just the best overall. Best shooting, best mellee, 9 wounds. Well worth 100 pts.
ya I think I'm gonna pass on the squigbuggies next time around. Dragstas are fantastic imo. 85pts and can get a 2+ bs shock rifle, 14" move, could possibly redeploy if your opponent leaves their backfield open, and decent in cc.
How were the 2 blastajets doing? I'm about to buy 2 from a tourney player who stopped running orks after the nerfs (basically, a month after release) and switched to necrons. I'm running goffs, tho. So, not sure jets are worth it for how much they cost. But maybe next edition... Might run a bomber tho!
Wazboms have pretty much always put out the most damage in all the games I've run with them. I've ran one in a goff pressure list too, also against grey knights, and it basically one shot a dk turn 1. ymmv on that one since it's gonna be getting most, if not all, your opponents AT if there's no other decent targets in your army. Burna bombers I think would be a great choice for goffs though, especially against those players that castle 4-5 units behind one ruin
I took GTGB, engage and warp ritual. The mission was the scouring. Basically I hung back with two grot squads (with their runtherders) and moved the infantry, beastboss and ghaz up the center. My opponent took grind, assassinate and banners.
I was able to max out gtgb by start of t3, as well as warp ritual and had gotten 30 primary points. I lost ghaz, the beastboss and makhari but once my kff and weirdboyz had done their job I ran them back and hid them.
We played a bit more then talked out the the rest of the game (maxing out my primary by scoring 8 and 8) but it became apparent he couldnt catch up if I kept him at bay.
Main takeaways were
1) Goff beast snagga are great against t7 dreads. Their damage 1 lose nothing and while they may not kill one outright if you soften one up before cc or buff a unit with strats (+1 to wound/exploding 5s) you should take one out.
2) I was super lucky with warp ritual as my opponent had the sister of silence and an inquisitor but failed to stop my warp ritual action alot due to luck. A good secondary if your opponent hasn't any any psycher buy I recognize I was lucky.
3)Ghaz was an interesting choice. It was my first time taking him in a while as I switched from speed mob. I don't make use of his speed waagh and I could take 3 cc dreads and zagstrukk instead of him and makhari. Something to think about...
4) I probably should have taken green tide rather than engage. I had to sacrifice minimum 1 sometimes two units which played into grind. If the map can hide 2 squad of 10 grots in your backfield you've got a floor of 10. Any other points would be gravy. )
5) barebones trukkboyz hit like a wet noodle but make excellent move blockers and can be seen as a guaranteed 1vp for minimum 1 turn if you take engage or greentide.
Yes anything with appropriate keywords gets the buffs. However killrigs don’t get much from speed Waagh. They don’t have Dakka and have 3 ranged weapons which gets the +1ap. I mean it’s okay vs armies with AoC since the 2 main guns are ap-3 and ap-2 base.
As a newb to tabletop i would need some advice of listbuilding... There is currently a crusade running at my LGS, with battles ramping up each month, starting at 500p and going up by 250p each time.
The other day i had my 500p match and unfortunstely lost to my opponents night lords.
One of my main issues was that i was basically unable to trigger the +1 Freeboota culture, and that combined with poor rolls was a pretty harsh loss. Now i am wondering what i could do to improve that for 750p. My main idea would be to add more shooty things so i can trigger competitive streak on ranged attacks more easily? Current plan is:
Spoiler:
Clan Kultur: Freebooterz
+ HQ +
Kaptin Badrukk [5 PL, 95pts]
Weirdboy [4 PL, 70pts]: 2. Warpath, 3. 'Ard as Nails, 3. Da Jump, 5. Da Krunch, Super Cybork Body, Warlord
Mek Gunz [4 PL, 90pts] . Mek Gun: Kustom Mega Kannon
. Mek Gun: Kustom Mega Kannon
++ Total: [45 PL, 6CP, 750pts] ++
Created with BattleScribe
Any opinions on that? I could drop the warbikers and add another mek gun and more shoota boys, but i think i would like to keep them for decent shooting and taking objectives/harassing backlines.
CaptainO wrote: I really don't think our codex is that bad. Couple of varied options (especially now that freebootas are back on the menu) that can be seen popping up on goonhammers weekly break down.
I think we're currently in a well balanced spot which is amazing considering how many moving parts there are in 9th edition.
Our secondaries are quality, our characters are good, the waagh/great waaagh is actually good now. The famine of CP these days plays well with us because we don't have many strats to use them on.
Art of war have just released a full Ork unit tier list which is a good watch. As with all advice take it with a pinch of salt but the analysis is pretty high quality as one would expect from the AoW team.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I get they made mistakes but none of them are game/army ruining.
So when the codex came out, we were 9th. Necrons and Marines were a bit of a dud, DG were good for about 2-3 months before Drukhari and Ad Mech dominated the meta for the next year+. Sisters had a flash of brilliance and died off again, Grey knights and TS not so much. Then us. So compared to those 9 codex's yes we were solid. We were a strong #3 army behind drukhari and Ad-mech even post nerf to those factions. What has happened since then? Custards, Tau, Eldar, Nidz, Knights and now CSM. So no, we aren't even remotely a good codex. But even going beyond the competitive nature...the codex is riddled with piss poor internal balance. What Kustom jobs were used? What Specialist mobs? How often were you seeing Dreadz, Kanz, Nobz, Banner Nob, Painboy, etc? We came out of the gate in 9th with a strong competitive build in Freeboota and not much else. The codex is the BEST we have had since 4th edition but that isn't saying much since we didn't have any until 7th and it was the worst ever, and 8th was codex strategum.
I would have liked more internal balance, more competitive options, more mechanics and options that both made sense and were at least worth thinking about. Why would I ever take any of the kustom jobz? the only time I can think of would be if i just happened to have that many points left over without anything else to spend the points on.
I also finally might have a match soon, going to test out squig buggies and nob on smash squig. Bit surprised many people haven't tried out double nob on smash squig. It averages 5MW on charge and if you destroy unit there is a stratagem to charge again, you can, if you set it up, zip through the lines to the back with around 36inch threat range?! I think that is what they mention.
My game will be casual and mostly to teach a new bro. But i will still try and see how they work in like a 1000pts game.
Just played a squig heavy list against a semi-competitive Custards list. My nob on smasha squigs were....ok. They are good at bullying weak targets...that was about it. I was able to use two of them to bum rush a squad and finish it off with mortal wounds so that was good. But that is literally their only strong point now. 5 rolls to get a mortal wound on the charge. Otherwise they are just a Nob with a Big Choppa. On average its 5 attacks, 3.3ish hits, against T5 and above its usually 2.2 wounds and at -1AP its either NO AP against Marines or against the custards I was playing it was a 3+, so 0.7 go through for 1.4dmg on average. Not exactly great for a 65pt model. Just wish they had more impact in CC.
Jidmah wrote: I don't want to be a doomsayer, but what makes you think that the same four rules writers who have not cared about ork rules at all for the last ten years will suddenly sit down and passionately work on delivering the best they can?
At this point, I'm not sure I want a next codex at all.
Going to agree with Jidmah again. Our 7th edition codex was crap, our 8th edition codex was really bad except for a couple wombo combos. This codex is again, the best we've had since 4th edition, but also again, that isn't saying much.
Just feels like it isn't that big of an ask for them to get one Ork player on staff who actively wants the ork codex to not be a big steaming pile of crap. Maybe even have rules be thematic, fluffy and competitive.
As a newb to tabletop i would need some advice of listbuilding... There is currently a crusade running at my LGS, with battles ramping up each month, starting at 500p and going up by 250p each time.
The other day i had my 500p match and unfortunstely lost to my opponents night lords.
One of my main issues was that i was basically unable to trigger the +1 Freeboota culture, and that combined with poor rolls was a pretty harsh loss. Now i am wondering what i could do to improve that for 750p. My main idea would be to add more shooty things so i can trigger competitive streak on ranged attacks more easily? Current plan is:
Spoiler:
Clan Kultur: Freebooterz
+ HQ +
Kaptin Badrukk [5 PL, 95pts]
Weirdboy [4 PL, 70pts]: 2. Warpath, 3. 'Ard as Nails, 3. Da Jump, 5. Da Krunch, Super Cybork Body, Warlord
Mek Gunz [4 PL, 90pts] . Mek Gun: Kustom Mega Kannon
. Mek Gun: Kustom Mega Kannon
++ Total: [45 PL, 6CP, 750pts] ++
Created with BattleScribe
Any opinions on that? I could drop the warbikers and add another mek gun and more shoota boys, but i think i would like to keep them for decent shooting and taking objectives/harassing backlines.
There is no reason to take boyz in mobz bigger than 10, so with that in mind, ditch the extra boyz. I don't know your league rules but if you can replace Badrukk...replace him, he is the worst warboss in the entire codex...bar none. Also, keep in mind if your warboss isn't your warlord then you can't call WAAAGH.
If you want to make money off Freeboota you need to lean into it, get rid of the stompy dread and replace it with more shooting. You can't go wrong with buggies in this regard. The KMKs are actually pretty good, but put them in 2 mobz of 1 not 1 mob of 2, Morale is a bugger and you can lose an entire mek gun by bad luck on morale. Remember they don't benefit from Freeboota kulture so lead your shooting off with them to hopefully pop something light and get your other stuff +1 to hit.
Warbikers are good in freeboota kulture but 3 of them isn't much of a threat so if you can repurpose some points i'd likely put those into another buggy.
There is no reason to take boyz in mobz bigger than 10, so with that in mind, ditch the extra boyz. I don't know your league rules but if you can replace Badrukk...replace him, he is the worst warboss in the entire codex...bar none. Also, keep in mind if your warboss isn't your warlord then you can't call WAAAGH.
If you want to make money off Freeboota you need to lean into it, get rid of the stompy dread and replace it with more shooting. You can't go wrong with buggies in this regard. The KMKs are actually pretty good, but put them in 2 mobz of 1 not 1 mob of 2, Morale is a bugger and you can lose an entire mek gun by bad luck on morale. Remember they don't benefit from Freeboota kulture so lead your shooting off with them to hopefully pop something light and get your other stuff +1 to hit.
Warbikers are good in freeboota kulture but 3 of them isn't much of a threat so if you can repurpose some points i'd likely put those into another buggy.
Fair points, thanks! Dropping the Dread would allow me to fit a Scrapjet, I guess that's the best option with it's shooting? Dropping the bikers would also allow for an additional Dragsta.
The thing about the KMKs is that over the course of the crusade I would then be splitting XP between them, potentially slowing down upgrade on them, making them even better at giving me an armywide +1 - But I guess there is up- and downsides to everything.
I agree with Semper, lean into the shooting phase to get the most out of Freebooters.
Scrapjets are the best buggies in most circumstances, and are only really outperformed in niche cases.
You can kind of get away with being slow in such small games, but only if you hit really hard at range. Every casualty is worth a lot more in small games. But at the other end, a fast durable army is devastating at low points levels.
Have you looked into a speedwaaagh type list? A Warboss on bike, 2 Scrapjets, 2 KMK Mek guns and 20 Grots is a pretty strong shooting list for just under 500 points that still has decent scoring capabilities.
Goonhammer made some stats about new secondaries. Pretty interesting. Orks marked as A-tier faction thanks very Good Bitz and pretty fine other secondaries.
Warbikers in 3 are pretty fine. Optimum is 4 but not necessary. They hit like wet noodle anyway. Just 3-4 boyz on bike. But the people usually kill 3 of them in one volley, so if you have 4, the Nob stays alive.
Anything bigger then 4 suffers because of morale and 6+ suffer on blast.
Tomsug wrote: Goonhammer made some stats about new secondaries. Pretty interesting. Orks marked as A-tier faction thanks very Good Bitz and pretty fine other secondaries.
Warbikers in 3 are pretty fine. Optimum is 4 but not necessary. They hit like wet noodle anyway. Just 3-4 boyz on bike. But the people usually kill 3 of them in one volley, so if you have 4, the Nob stays alive.
Anything bigger then 4 suffers because of morale and 6+ suffer on blast.
To be fair they made them tiers of secondary strength not faction based tiers. We are still a B tier faction just our faction secondaries are decent which we knew. If you aren’t building around get the good bits you are doing it wrong (competitively). Also I agree greentide being that much better is surprising. I always felt it was more situational.
Most of this we knew though
Bring it down>assasinate>biggest and baddest(ghaz only)… matchup dependent
Get the good bits
No prisoners or greentide - hardest choice here/some matchup dependent choice
CaptainO wrote: I really don't think our codex is that bad. Couple of varied options (especially now that freebootas are back on the menu) that can be seen popping up on goonhammers weekly break down.
I think we're currently in a well balanced spot which is amazing considering how many moving parts there are in 9th edition.
Our secondaries are quality, our characters are good, the waagh/great waaagh is actually good now. The famine of CP these days plays well with us because we don't have many strats to use them on.
Art of war have just released a full Ork unit tier list which is a good watch. As with all advice take it with a pinch of salt but the analysis is pretty high quality as one would expect from the AoW team.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I get they made mistakes but none of them are game/army ruining.
So when the codex came out, we were 9th. Necrons and Marines were a bit of a dud, DG were good for about 2-3 months before Drukhari and Ad Mech dominated the meta for the next year+. Sisters had a flash of brilliance and died off again, Grey knights and TS not so much. Then us. So compared to those 9 codex's yes we were solid. We were a strong #3 army behind drukhari and Ad-mech even post nerf to those factions. What has happened since then? Custards, Tau, Eldar, Nidz, Knights and now CSM. So no, we aren't even remotely a good codex. But even going beyond the competitive nature...the codex is riddled with piss poor internal balance. What Kustom jobs were used? What Specialist mobs? How often were you seeing Dreadz, Kanz, Nobz, Banner Nob, Painboy, etc? We came out of the gate in 9th with a strong competitive build in Freeboota and not much else. The codex is the BEST we have had since 4th edition but that isn't saying much since we didn't have any until 7th and it was the worst ever, and 8th was codex strategum.
I would have liked more internal balance, more competitive options, more mechanics and options that both made sense and were at least worth thinking about. Why would I ever take any of the kustom jobz? the only time I can think of would be if i just happened to have that many points left over without anything else to spend the points on.
I'll concede the codex had a multitude of compatibility errors upon its release so I suppose when I say that we've a good codex what I mean is as of Nephilim orks are a "good" army. We have a variety of build options, can compete with the top armies (based on my own experience and the stats) have very good secondaries (check out the most recent goonhammer article).
Kustom jobs are a bust unfortunately. Ironically making them free was exactly what was needed.
Tomsug wrote: Goonhammer made some stats about new secondaries. Pretty interesting. Orks marked as A-tier faction thanks very Good Bitz and pretty fine other secondaries.
Warbikers in 3 are pretty fine. Optimum is 4 but not necessary. They hit like wet noodle anyway. Just 3-4 boyz on bike. But the people usually kill 3 of them in one volley, so if you have 4, the Nob stays alive.
Anything bigger then 4 suffers because of morale and 6+ suffer on blast.
To be fair they made them tiers of secondary strength not faction based tiers. We are still a B tier faction just our faction secondaries are decent which we knew. If you aren’t building around get the good bits you are doing it wrong (competitively). Also I agree greentide being that much better is surprising. I always felt it was more situational.
Most of this we knew though
Bring it down>assasinate>biggest and baddest(ghaz only)… matchup dependent
Get the good bits
No prisoners or greentide - hardest choice here/some matchup dependent choice
I received some advice in list building forum, but it didn't make any sense to me.
Proxy 2 meganoz with warboss in mega armor, you can jump around 2 squard of boyz were you need them , komandos can be deployed more aggressively. But i would still recommend getting 1 kill ring for BSB.
1. Why would I need meganobz for teleports?
2. What is BSB on a Kill Rig? (Beast Snagga Boyz?)
Sazzlefrats wrote: I received some advice in list building forum, but it didn't make any sense to me.
Proxy 2 meganoz with warboss in mega armor, you can jump around 2 squard of boyz were you need them , komandos can be deployed more aggressively. But i would still recommend getting 1 kill ring for BSB.
1. Why would I need meganobz for teleports?
2. What is BSB on a Kill Rig? (Beast Snagga Boyz?)
I think you misunderstood the poster's comment about the Warbosses in mega armour, I don't think they mean literally the psychic power "Da Jump" but rather them tagging along with the boyz in what I presume are in transports like trukks.
The BSB would be Beast Snagga Boyz, because besides a Beast Snagga Warboss, there isn't anything else that can ride it.
Sazzlefrats wrote: I received some advice in list building forum, but it didn't make any sense to me.
Proxy 2 meganoz with warboss in mega armor, you can jump around 2 squard of boyz were you need them , komandos can be deployed more aggressively. But i would still recommend getting 1 kill ring for BSB.
1. Why would I need meganobz for teleports?
2. What is BSB on a Kill Rig? (Beast Snagga Boyz?)
I think you misunderstood the poster's comment about the Warbosses in mega armour, I don't think they mean literally the psychic power "Da Jump" but rather them tagging along with the boyz in what I presume are in transports like trukks.
The BSB would be Beast Snagga Boyz, because besides a Beast Snagga Warboss, there isn't anything else that can ride it.
Ah... stick the warbosses in the battlewagon with the regular boyz... making some sense now.
For Necrons, I know to push for pressure, focus on C'tan, ignore TSK, maybe kill off Menhirs, and focus down doom scythes. If he brings tomb blades, keep snaggas in the back for a surprise.
For Drukhari, it depends on build, but whittle down raiders with psy and shooting, charge what comes out.
For Sisters, prepare for 1-2 punch, do not overcommit first wave.
For DG, focus on termies and plague marines.
For Custodes, avoid the BC and the characters, I know Custodes well.
For IG, just jump in and not let the TCs go havok on me, hide my bigger stuff well.
For CK, focus on dogs and try to moveblock them.
For BA, snipe out buffing characters if I can, especially with bomb squigs.
All kind of termies CC could be roadblock too. DG friend of mine really hates chewing throw the 3 warbikers for 75p for 2-3 turna with his 600p blob of these melee bastards.
Been considering breaking out my Orks and start playing tournaments my LGS. Apparently its terminator heavy with Chaos/EC and DA. I anticipate lots of chaos. I love the use of bombsquigs to take out key buffing characters.
Still pretty scrub at application Does this list have enought pressure?
Ghaz
Boss on squig BbK, Mantle
BigMek KFF 3x Nobs on squigs
2x10 beast boys
2x Grots
2x 10 kommandos with bomb and ram
2x3 Hogs with bomb
3 Kill rig
would love to get another squad of hogs in there for one more bombsquig.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Triple rig and nob might be excessive I could drop for more hog riders and maybe some mek guns.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Would love to just drop a nob for a hog squad and get another bombsquig but points are notmovable and I dont have the 5 extra points
Dr.Duck wrote: Been considering breaking out my Orks and start playing tournaments my LGS. Apparently its terminator heavy with Chaos/EC and DA. I anticipate lots of chaos. I love the use of bombsquigs to take out key buffing characters.
Still pretty scrub at application Does this list have enought pressure?
Ghaz
Boss on squig BbK, Mantle
BigMek KFF 3x Nobs on squigs
2x10 beast boys
2x Grots
2x 10 kommandos with bomb and ram
2x3 Hogs with bomb
3 Kill rig
would love to get another squad of hogs in there for one more bombsquig.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Triple rig and nob might be excessive I could drop for more hog riders and maybe some mek guns.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Would love to just drop a nob for a hog squad and get another bombsquig but points are notmovable and I dont have the 5 extra points
Or drop a kill rig for a BW and a hog squad
Maybe swap out a battlewagon for one killrig with ard case, it can give up +3 move for the grots and save a small number of points.
Ya I think the negatives of triple squig nob kinda outweighs the positives after trying it out.
They're super squishy so your auto giving up assassination, which is fine, but at the same time you could just take more squig boyz who are hitting decently harder per point then a base squig nob and make your opponent at least somewhat try for assassination. Also makes it hard to score grind them down/stomp them good, which isn't a deal breaker since no prisoners is better than both in majority of situations.
I do love taking one if I have a spare relic for killchoppa and a weirdboy to cast fist. Dude will hit like a truck.
flaming tadpole wrote: Ya I think the negatives of triple squig nob kinda outweighs the positives after trying it out.
They're super squishy so your auto giving up assassination, which is fine, but at the same time you could just take more squig boyz who are hitting decently harder per point then a base squig nob and make your opponent at least somewhat try for assassination. Also makes it hard to score grind them down/stomp them good, which isn't a deal breaker since no prisoners is better than both in majority of situations.
I do love taking one if I have a spare relic for killchoppa and a weirdboy to cast fist. Dude will hit like a truck.
You definately probably right. I just really liked the idea of getting mortal wounds on wierd phases to get around phase caps and snipe support characters. But ya the general lack of AP and attacks comeing out of htem is disheartening. Killchoppa definately iis good on one and If I have the CP maybe the iron gob on the other.
I played against Ulthwe Eldar recently with a triple KillRig Goff List with Ghazzy and it went really well since I was able to get T1 and pin him in his deployment zone which prevented him from getting any major secondaries for most of the game while I managed to effectively max out Get Da Good Bitz and Engage on All Fronts with Impunity.
I'm facing the same Eldar player again and I wanted to try something a bit different. I'm a Deffskullz player at heart and I wondered what would really go well with them in terms of army build or units I should consider given the recent changes. I'm tempted to take Ghazzy still in a Supreme Command since he gives us the double WAAAGH! effect and he's still pretty tanky for drawing away fire from the rest of the army. I also really don't miss out on not having the Deffskullz strat, trait or relic since all three are pretty meh. Should I push for an infantry heavy list to really max out my obsec capabilities or should be more of a mixed approach between vehicles like Scrapjets and Wazbom Blastajets for fire support and kommandos/meganobz to contest mid-field objectives?
Nobz [6 PL, 100pts]
. Boss Nob: Big Choppa, Choppa
. Nob: Big Choppa, Choppa
. Nob: Big Choppa, Choppa
. Nob: Big Choppa, Choppa
. Nob: Big Choppa, Choppa
flaming tadpole wrote: Ya I think the negatives of triple squig nob kinda outweighs the positives after trying it out.
They're super squishy so your auto giving up assassination, which is fine, but at the same time you could just take more squig boyz who are hitting decently harder per point then a base squig nob and make your opponent at least somewhat try for assassination. Also makes it hard to score grind them down/stomp them good, which isn't a deal breaker since no prisoners is better than both in majority of situations.
I do love taking one if I have a spare relic for killchoppa and a weirdboy to cast fist. Dude will hit like a truck.
I quite like them, but they're list dependent. I run two patrols and all my FA slots are taken, so being able to get them slotless is great. But I've found that two works better than three.
Obviously two doesn't hit as hard as three, but they're so much more of a target at three. Two at least lets you stick one on each flank and sneak them around the board without them having too much attention drawn. Three is a threat that needs to be dealt with and gets shot off the board immediately.
I run six characters overall and so far I've not given up the full VP for Assassinate on that many occasions that it's mattered. I tend to either win comfortably or lose horribly, so a handful of VP hasn't made a difference so far
Afrodactyl wrote: I tend to either win comfortably or lose horribly, so a handful of VP hasn't made a difference so far
Love this part.
Anywayz, I actually tend to either win big - like 20/0 or stay toe to toe. Can't actually remember loosing worse than 13-7 like...ever running orks. Don't play too often and don't go to large tourneys, so, not some kind of secret star (i'm sure, i'm gonna get my greenskin ass handled at 0-20 the moment I meet a top player as I make a ton of mistakes during play). I've lost horribly fielding ig but not orks. So, building with srcondaries in mind is a thing in my case. In close games every bit matters. Also, that's one of the reasons I'm back to running 2x10 Boyz. Purely for obsec at the midboard.
So, I try to not allow the opponent get easy max VP. Assasinate is a huge concern and basically rules out my favorite minimeka in larger games (they're still great in small games tho).
Nobz [6 PL, 100pts]
. Boss Nob: Big Choppa, Choppa
. Nob: Big Choppa, Choppa
. Nob: Big Choppa, Choppa
. Nob: Big Choppa, Choppa
. Nob: Big Choppa, Choppa
While I don’t always agree with goonhammer as I don’t think they really understand or play orks. The goonhammer guys does a semi decent job In This one just trying to figure out what the player was doing.
I think they were accurate in the deathskull list it’s mostly spamming infantry to play the primary and take advantage or greentide and good bits. It’s trying to build a VP lead early and survive long enough. It also takes advantage of kustom
Jobs
Would agree. Orks milling about all over the place basically. I admit that I had yet to grasp Green Tide's value despite mostly playing lists similar to this where I went for Bitz, Biggest and Ritual.
Yeah, that Deffskullz list is a lot of less cohesive than the one we saw before that was posted with Meganobz and mass Kommandos/Stormboyz. I guess the one main thing in common is mass infantry to use the most out of obsec on everyone.
CaptainO wrote: How many VP points have you guys been getting with the biggest and the best and ghaz on average?
I wouldn´t say it´s limited to Ghaz. I regularly use a MANZWL with Cybork Relic and have him join the general scrum for the main line along side BWs, Rigs, Trukks, Boyz, Snaggas and Manz, etc. to protect him. I like him since he buffs CORE which is both MANZ and Snaggastuff.
Ghaz is annoying as he has such a big target painted all over him and then investing a whole secondary category into him is incentivizing the opponent killing him even more. It defeats the purpose.
CaptainO wrote: How many VP points have you guys been getting with the biggest and the best and ghaz on average?
oh yikes. ive never run biggest and the best with Ghaz because he doesnt have look out sir.
Ive been running biggest and the best with a warboss in mega armor with ard as nails and krushing armor. That on the other hand, seems very good. It always nets you 10 points at least (but often 12 or 14 if someone comes near and wants to fight), and hes cheap enough that i want to leave him on an objective somewhere safe outside my deployment zone, with look out sir.
Ghaz on the other hand cant really be protected at all, so hes just a sitting duck.
CaptainO wrote: How many VP points have you guys been getting with the biggest and the best and ghaz on average?
I wouldn´t say it´s limited to Ghaz. I regularly use a MANZWL with Cybork Relic and have him join the general scrum for the main line along side BWs, Rigs, Trukks, Boyz, Snaggas and Manz, etc. to protect him. I like him since he buffs CORE which is both MANZ and Snaggastuff.
Ghaz is annoying as he has such a big target painted all over him and then investing a whole secondary category into him is incentivizing the opponent killing him even more. It defeats the purpose.
Ya ghaz isn't ideal for it but if I take him he's my warlord so I was wondering if people ever took biggest and the best and how many points they got.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I totally get that hiding a 300+50 point model in the back to score points isn't ideal but if the board had sufficient cover to block him from view he'd be safe and could pick up 10vp early with some combat and destruction.
biggest is just a bad secondary imo. megaboss isn't too terrible an investment to keep camped on a side obj with your good bit grots, but you could also just get 10-12 vp pretty passively from greentide then no prisoners/warp ritual for the third secondary.
I've run biggest and the best with ghaz. Even so, most enemies tried to focus my scrapjets and walkers first, so ghaz managed to live up to t3 most of the time. And get >=12 VP from this secondary.
I try to shoot at enemy vehicles when he's not advancing. Sometimes it works and he gets a sound through. Which is just 2 extra VP which ain't too bad.
koooaei wrote: I've run biggest and the best with ghaz. Even so, most enemies tried to focus my scrapjets and walkers first, so ghaz managed to live up to t3 most of the time. And get >=12 VP from this secondary.
I try to shoot at enemy vehicles when he's not advancing. Sometimes it works and he gets a sound through. Which is just 2 extra VP which ain't too bad.
Interesting. I was taking two weirdboyz for psychic secondaries but you give up abhor and easy points to tsons in exchange for a secondary several armies have hard counters to (sisters of silence, normal sisters, denies).
How do you normally get your 12 vps? 6 base for holding an objective for 3 turns bumping that up to 5 on two turns by killing something? Do you run ghaz into the centre or just hide him out of the way?
you could definitely run it depending on the match-up, but based on the data I think you will just have a better option more times than not.
I still think Ghaz is a good 50pts overcosted too. He's useful in lists where you really want both waaaghs but almost any other scenario I'd rather have a megaboss and extra killrig for same points.
Biggest and baddest is a back up when other easy ones aren’t available or your facing a list that can’t kill ghaz quickly because they don’t do reliable damage in multiple phases. Missions are limited to categories so
Bring it down>Assassinate>biggest and baddest
If low vehicles and low character count then biggest and baddest… you don’t really need to setup your list for it either since ghaz and makari are good in goff pressure already.
Good bits owns it’s own category
And it’s basically up to greentide or take no prisoners (vs something like necrons)
koooaei wrote: I've run biggest and the best with ghaz. Even so, most enemies tried to focus my scrapjets and walkers first, so ghaz managed to live up to t3 most of the time. And get >=12 VP from this secondary.
I try to shoot at enemy vehicles when he's not advancing. Sometimes it works and he gets a sound through. Which is just 2 extra VP which ain't too bad.
Interesting. I was taking two weirdboyz for psychic secondaries but you give up abhor and easy points to tsons in exchange for a secondary several armies have hard counters to (sisters of silence, normal sisters, denies).
How do you normally get your 12 vps? 6 base for holding an objective for 3 turns bumping that up to 5 on two turns by killing something? Do you run ghaz into the centre or just hide him out of the way?
Yes, 2 turns of killing stuff and 1 turn of scoring/shooting. I also try to fight around objectives to get that 2 VP. And yes, try to shoot monsters/vehicles with his fancy shoota when I get a chance and it's not taking away from something more important. You only need 1 to go through and you get that 2vp. It's not a given, ofc. If you calculate it, you've got around 60% to land an unsaved wound vs most vehicles/monsters with a 2+ or 3+ aok save within dakka range. Not too bad.
It's usually like this:
1st turn - scoring a point and occasionally getting to wound a tank, but rarely, as advancing is often more important.
That's 2-4 VP.
Than you just fight for a couple turns till you get killed. Often wreck a character, tank or a monster, possibly, close to a point.
That's another 2-5 per turn.
It's definitely not an ideal secondary but you don't get much to choose from if there are no good targets.
He says he uses a battlewagon to reach objectives with grots, outside the deployment zone.
But we already established that many of them have objectives that you need a runtherd next to (and ofc a transport), in order for the grots to reach. so that grots would get 5+3+1 rather than the usual 5+3 movement from exiting a transport.
I think the fact that we barely reach the edge, makes him think that he can actually just reach it, and have thus maybe cheated a bit by accident.
I'm just glad we're getting some sort of representation on the competitive scene without the usual witch hunt mob going off trying to lynch Ork armies for being "too competitive". We're in the sweet spot of being relevant enough to compete without stealing too much of the spotlight to get the nerfhammer due to the collective hate of the competitive community.
Grimskul wrote: I'm just glad we're getting some sort of representation on the competitive scene without the usual witch hunt mob going off trying to lynch Ork armies for being "too competitive". We're in the sweet spot of being relevant enough to compete without stealing too much of the spotlight to get the nerfhammer due to the collective hate of the competitive community.
To be honest, orks were causing major butthurt only when were sweeping the board with mani-cheema-style brainless spam lists with 9 scrapjets+9 squigbuggies. And it was ott, I agree.
Grimskul wrote: I'm just glad we're getting some sort of representation on the competitive scene without the usual witch hunt mob going off trying to lynch Ork armies for being "too competitive". We're in the sweet spot of being relevant enough to compete without stealing too much of the spotlight to get the nerfhammer due to the collective hate of the competitive community.
To be honest, orks were causing major butthurt only when were sweeping the board with mani-cheema-style brainless spam lists with 9 scrapjets+9 squigbuggies. And it was ott, I agree.
You must have missed all of the beast snagga release outcry. Mozrog was all over the competitive videos and blogs as the most broken thing ever and killrigs were nerfed solely because this outcry.
Grimskul wrote: I'm just glad we're getting some sort of representation on the competitive scene without the usual witch hunt mob going off trying to lynch Ork armies for being "too competitive". We're in the sweet spot of being relevant enough to compete without stealing too much of the spotlight to get the nerfhammer due to the collective hate of the competitive community.
To be honest, orks were causing major butthurt only when were sweeping the board with mani-cheema-style brainless spam lists with 9 scrapjets+9 squigbuggies. And it was ott, I agree.
You must have missed all of the beast snagga release outcry. Mozrog was all over the competitive videos and blogs as the most broken thing ever and killrigs were nerfed solely because this outcry.
Mozrog is great in a vacuum. The clan itself is bad tho. Regular squigbosses are still way above average.
Well, the release was long ago, and the new stuff was indeed pretty good. Killers are still one of our best units, aren't they?
It's just the game that's in it's usual power-creep spiral. Right before the new edition.
Beardedragon wrote: A superheavy detatchment remains at 6CP yes? So if i wanted a a tripple killtank list, i would be absolutely fethed on CP?
As far as I can tell, yes, unfortunately. So I definitely would not use it in a nephilim mission, you're better off playing Tempest of War if you want to do a proper armoured krumpany list so you still have some CP left over.
Beardedragon wrote: A superheavy detatchment remains at 6CP yes? So if i wanted a a tripple killtank list, i would be absolutely fethed on CP?
As far as I can tell, yes, unfortunately. So I definitely would not use it in a nephilim mission, you're better off playing Tempest of War if you want to do a proper armoured krumpany list so you still have some CP left over.
well thats a damn shame. but thanks. Kind of stupid that they didnt think: Hey, maybe we should, like, not pay 6 points for a super heavy detatchment. It used to be half of ones CP going towards this detatchment, maybe it should remain half, so 3CP.
Alas... guess im in no hurry to find my third kill tank
Beardedragon wrote: A superheavy detatchment remains at 6CP yes? So if i wanted a a tripple killtank list, i would be absolutely fethed on CP?
As far as I can tell, yes, unfortunately. So I definitely would not use it in a nephilim mission, you're better off playing Tempest of War if you want to do a proper armoured krumpany list so you still have some CP left over.
well thats a damn shame. but thanks. Kind of stupid that they didnt think: Hey, maybe we should, like, not pay 6 points for a super heavy detatchment. It used to be half of ones CP going towards this detatchment, maybe it should remain half, so 3CP.
Alas... guess im in no hurry to find my third kill tank
Find your 3rd now & get it ready. This Nephlim gak won't last forever.
In a few months they'll throw something else at the wall & toss out another GT pack.
Will the CP still be halved? Who knows. But if they aren't, you'll be all set to go.....
Are people not finding their orks are performing the best they've seen as a result of nephilim?
RTT this weekend so I may end up eating my hat but I'm finding an army built with the secondaries in mind and a laser like focus on getting the VP while preventing my opponent from scoring their secondaries is causing numerous oppononents problems.
CaptainO wrote: Are people not finding their orks are performing the best they've seen as a result of nephilim?
RTT this weekend so I may end up eating my hat but I'm finding an army built with the secondaries in mind and a laser like focus on getting the VP while preventing my opponent from scoring their secondaries is causing numerous oppononents problems.
My Grot tank force works just fine Nephlim or not.
Though it did work a bit better for a week or three when the kustom jobs were free....
The major change for me was just reorganizing it into patrols vs a heavy & a fast detachment. And adding several runt herds (using a handful of leftover pts I had anyways).
Anyone tried goff tankbustas with triple tankhammers, 2+CP strat for exploding 5s and ghaz rerolls to up the mortal wound count?
On a different note in a deffskulls 2000point brigade what are people's thoughts on 3 X 3 msu style meganobz versus one squad of 4 and one of 5 to better use hit em harder.
Hello chaps, I'm taking orks to a tournament and just wanted to check I'm understanding how Bomb Squigs work - they don't come with a manual - and thought this was a good place to ask.
Here's the entry on the datasheet under the heading Other Wargear:
Once per turn, when a unit with a bomb squig is selected to shoot or fire Overwatch, if it has any bomb squigs remaining, the unit can release one. When it does so, you can select one enemy unit (excluding AIRCRAFT) that is within 12" of the unit with a bomb squig (when firing Overwatch this must be the charging unit) and roll one D6, adding 1 to the result if that enemy unit is a VEHICLE: on a 3+, that enemy unit suffers D3 mortal wounds. The number of bomb squigs the unit is equipped with is then reduced by 1.
1. Does this mean I can use one even if my unit is in combat? I'll be selecting the unit to shoot with pistols after all.
2. Can I ignore the Look Out Sir rule or any other rules that might make a model untargetable?
PaddyMick wrote: Hello chaps, I'm taking orks to a tournament and just wanted to check I'm understanding how Bomb Squigs work - they don't come with a manual - and thought this was a good place to ask.
Here's the entry on the datasheet under the heading Other Wargear:
Once per turn, when a unit with a bomb squig is selected to shoot or fire Overwatch, if it has any bomb squigs remaining, the unit can release one. When it does so, you can select one enemy unit (excluding AIRCRAFT) that is within 12" of the unit with a bomb squig (when firing Overwatch this must be the charging unit) and roll one D6, adding 1 to the result if that enemy unit is a VEHICLE: on a 3+, that enemy unit suffers D3 mortal wounds. The number of bomb squigs the unit is equipped with is then reduced by 1.
1. Does this mean I can use one even if my unit is in combat? I'll be selecting the unit to shoot with pistols after all.
2. Can I ignore the Look Out Sir rule or any other rules that might make a model untargetable?
3. Can I ignore the line of sight rules?
Ta
1. Yes, the unit just needs to be eligible to shoot, even if you don't actually have a pistol.
2. Yes.
3. Yes.
But ones own kommandos would still need a line of sight target to activate their pistols, and thus the bomb squig, yes? Even though the bomb squig itself can target someone without line of sight.
So one can never only activate the bomb squig without firing anything?
Beardedragon wrote: But ones own kommandos would still need a line of sight target to activate their pistols, and thus the bomb squig, yes? Even though the bomb squig itself can target someone without line of sight.
So one can never only activate the bomb squig without firing anything?
Select targets happens after throwing the bomb squig. You have to fully resolve the squig before checking LoS or range.
That's cool, so you can throw one even if the unit can't see anyone at all? you just need to say, i'm selecting these guys to shoot, and bomb away then. Awesome. Wish we could take more of the little devils.
Beardedragon wrote: But ones own kommandos would still need a line of sight target to activate their pistols, and thus the bomb squig, yes? Even though the bomb squig itself can target someone without line of sight.
So one can never only activate the bomb squig without firing anything?
Select targets happens after throwing the bomb squig. You have to fully resolve the squig before checking LoS or range.
Edit: Actually i stand corrected. the rules states that an eligible unit to shoot is one that has a ranged weapon and didnt advance (unless they can advance and fire, like with assault weapons) or fell back. I could have sworn i read somewhere that it also stated you needed line of sight unless it was a weapon, fired without line of sight.
So correct, you can totally fire the squig bomb even thought your pistols have no vision over any targets. I always played the squig bomb as me, having to be actually able to shoot someone before i fire my squig at a target behind a wall with no line of sight. This was always complicated. This makes it way easier.
Beardedragon wrote: Edit: Actually i stand corrected. the rules states that an eligible unit to shoot is one that has a ranged weapon and didnt advance (unless they can advance and fire, like with assault weapons) or fell back. I could have sworn i read somewhere that it also stated you needed line of sight unless it was a weapon, fired without line of sight.
So correct, you can totally fire the squig bomb even thought your pistols have no vision over any targets. I always played the squig bomb as me, having to be actually able to shoot someone before i fire my squig at a target behind a wall with no line of sight. This was always complicated. This makes it way easier.
You are probably referring to a paragraph in the select target section, where a unit becomes "not eligble to shoot" after checking range and LoS.
GW really needs to implement proper trigger rulings like MtG did twenty years ago.
Beardedragon wrote: Edit: Actually i stand corrected. the rules states that an eligible unit to shoot is one that has a ranged weapon and didnt advance (unless they can advance and fire, like with assault weapons) or fell back. I could have sworn i read somewhere that it also stated you needed line of sight unless it was a weapon, fired without line of sight.
So correct, you can totally fire the squig bomb even thought your pistols have no vision over any targets. I always played the squig bomb as me, having to be actually able to shoot someone before i fire my squig at a target behind a wall with no line of sight. This was always complicated. This makes it way easier.
You are probably referring to a paragraph in the select target section, where a unit becomes "not eligble to shoot" after checking range and LoS.
GW really needs to implement proper trigger rulings like MtG did twenty years ago.
yea that sounds about right. thats probably where i found it.
This game is way more complicated than it has to be.
CaptainO wrote: Anyone tried goff tankbustas with triple tankhammers, 2+CP strat for exploding 5s and ghaz rerolls to up the mortal wound count?
I thought about that haha. That unit would be pretty pricey, but the thought of mw an imperial/chaos knight to death in one go would be pretty entertaining. Since the wording is the same with tankbusta bombs as tankhammers I assume you could potentially do 4d3 mw with the bomb as well?
Ya you'd probably definitely want to check ahead of time if you were planning to take it to a tourney or something.
It's kinda weird though that you could still get extra hits from squig attacks and not the hammer if that were the case though. Idk if some refs rule against that one as well, but I've seen pro players use exploding 6's for squig attacks so I assumed tankhammers wouldn't be much different.
they would have faq'd that long ago if they didnt intend Goff to get 2 hits. Its limited to "1 attack" - nothing prevents that attack from exploding (HA!). Theres other mechanics saying "This unit makes X extra attacks with this weapon and can only make X attacks with this weapon" that also trigger exploding hits that nobody ever challenges so whats different about the tankhamma?
Squigbombs wouldnt work because theyre not an "attack" anyway. No hit roll or wound roll, just a check.
I more wouldnt wanna try that because thats a rather pricy, squishy unit that has a massive target over its head. Nobody is gonna let you keep them alive to charge unless you manage a 9" deepstrike charge.
ya you'd definitely have to threat overload your opponent for sure to get them to not concentrate them down. I have a game coming up with my mate so might try it out and let you guys know how horribly it goes wrong.
Beardedragon wrote: Im curious, Jidmah, would you go for exploding sixes on tankhammers and tankbusta bomb stratagems?
Rules first: Goff: Each time a model with this kultur makes a melee attack, an unmodified hit roll of 6 scores 1 additional hit.
Tankhammer: Each time the bearer fights, it can only make 1 attack with this weapon. If that attack hits, the target unit suffers D6 mortal wounds and the bearer is destroyed.
Tankbusta bomb: Use this Stratagem in the Fight phase, when an ORKS TANKBUSTA BOMBS unit from your army is selected to fight. Select one model in that unit; that model can only make one attack this phase and must target an enemy VEHICLE unit with that attack, but if a hit is scored, that unit suffers 2D3 mortal wounds and the attack sequence ends.
Rare rules: If any additional hits are scored as the result of a particular hit roll, those additional hits are not considered to have been made with any hit roll – they simply hit the target and you must continue the attack sequence for them (i.e. make a wound roll).
Some rules, typically weapon abilities, tell you to roll more than one hit roll for each attack made, e.g. ‘each time an attack is made with this weapon, make 2 hit rolls instead of 1’. In these cases, each hit roll is treated as a separate attack that is made against the same target. As such, all normal rules that are triggered by attacks, or that apply to attacks (such as re-rolls or modifiers conferred by other rules) apply to each ‘hit roll’. Note that these additional attacks do not themselves result in more hit rolls being made.
So yes, as the extra hits continue the attack sequence and each hit triggers "all normal rules that are triggered by attacks", you get twice the explosions on a roll of 6.
Battle Size [6CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)
Clan Kultur: Goffs
Detachment Command Cost [-4CP]
Gametype: 4. Chapter Approved: War Zone Nephilim
+ No Force Org Slot +
Nob on Smasha Squig [4 PL, 65pts]
+ HQ +
Boss Zagstruk [6 PL, 110pts]
Warboss [5 PL, -2CP, 105pts]: 4. Brutal but Kunnin, Attack Squig, Da Killa Klaw, Kombi-skorcha, Power Klaw, Stratagem: Big Boss, Stratagem: Extra Gubbinz
Nob on Smasha Squig [4 PL, 65pts, -2CP]: 4. Brutal but Kunnin, Big Choppa, Headwoppa’s Killchoppa, Slugga, Smasha Squig Jaws, Stratagem: Big Boss [-1CP], Stratagem: Extra Gubbinz [-1CP]
Tomsug wrote: Pretty boring, hmm? Innovations finished month after release of the new enviroment…
To be honest, I'm not surprised. It's not like there is a lot of stuff to toy around with in the codex with AoC and the nerfs to the speed waaagh lists.
Tomsug wrote: Pretty boring, hmm? Innovations finished month after release of the new enviroment…
To be honest, I'm not surprised. It's not like there is a lot of stuff to toy around with in the codex with AoC and the nerfs to the speed waaagh lists.
Is it the same story with other factions?
I used to write the rules and organize the game for the biggest LARP battle in czech for couple of years. Slowly I take out all the bugs and argues makeing parts to be effective, fair and transparent. On the end it was pretty smooth running boring game…
I don't get how is snikrot any good? He seems pretty overcosted for what you get.
Am I seeing him wrong? Got a model anywayz. But it just lies unpainted for like 5 years straight.
He isn’t a big threat.. personally I think he needs better melee… he’s okay if you have a bunch of kommandos and want a warlord +1 to hit effect by them. But ya I think he’s overcosted for what he does.
His wpn needs +2 str…
And his -2 leadership should be removed and replaced with a fight first aura for him and any kommandos within 6in.
Ya I haven't ever bothered even trying him really. Feel like he should just be around 70-80 pts.
Best case scenario for you him I feel like is you camp him and a squad of kommandos behind los terrain on an obj all game and hope your opponent throws something that won't outright murder the whole lot.
Alright Boyz, heading off to another GT and I want your input. Going to be playing Goffs, but going to be taking it back a bit, i'll be playing a tempo list rather than a pure Alphork strike list.
3x Nobz on Smasha Squig (No FO Slot)
Beastboss on Squig: Ard As nailz/BeastHide Mantle.
Going to be taking the ork secondaries pretty heavily, specifically Da biggest and da Best and Get da good bitz.
For Biggest and Best My Beastboss on Squig has -1 to wound, -1dmg and a 5+ FNP and 5+ Invuln. Hes also going to be operating with the Painboy to get him some heals when necessary. Since he isn't able to be targeted (Unlike Ghaz) he should last at least 3 turns which guarantees me 6pts, and realistically I don't plan on getting less than 8-10 from him a game.
For get the good bits...well 3 units of Grots. have them move up the field and just rotate in to score me 5VP. I should max out this secondary by the 3rd turn.
Beyond that, I have 3 Nobz on Smasha squig to provide some Mortal wounds, along with 6 Bomb squigs spread across 6 units including 3 kommando units which from experience I can tell you punch well above their weight class.
The Snaggas will be hitching a lift in the Kill Rig which will be turn 1 blitzing up the field with his +1 to move and +2 to advance Tyres which should give him a fairly safe charge 1st turn which can be guaranteed with Ramming speed. The Battlewagon is there to look intimidating, ferry grots to the frontlines and if necessary get stuck in with his Deff Rolla.
I have 3 kommando units, a unit of trukkboyz and the Killrig all capable of a 1st turn charge which I'm hoping will keep my opponent defensively deployed which gives me more time to score primaries/secondaries.
I'll also point out that the Killrig (if I go first and it gets a good advance)has the ability of a 1st turn frazzle attack, which under the right circumstances can be devastating. I played against a guard player who wasn't expecting this and I got a frazzle off against about 9 different units all clustered together.
Now with that said, the downsides to this list is it bleeds secondaries in the form of character kills. 3 nob on smasha, 3 HQs, a painboy and my killrig.
let me know what you guys think and what should be tweaked.
SemperMortis wrote: Alright Boyz, heading off to another GT and I want your input. Going to be playing Goffs, but going to be taking it back a bit, i'll be playing a tempo list rather than a pure Alphork strike list.
3x Nobz on Smasha Squig (No FO Slot)
Beastboss on Squig: Ard As nailz/BeastHide Mantle.
Going to be taking the ork secondaries pretty heavily, specifically Da biggest and da Best and Get da good bitz.
For Biggest and Best My Beastboss on Squig has -1 to wound, -1dmg and a 5+ FNP and 5+ Invuln. Hes also going to be operating with the Painboy to get him some heals when necessary. Since he isn't able to be targeted (Unlike Ghaz) he should last at least 3 turns which guarantees me 6pts, and realistically I don't plan on getting less than 8-10 from him a game.
For get the good bits...well 3 units of Grots. have them move up the field and just rotate in to score me 5VP. I should max out this secondary by the 3rd turn.
Beyond that, I have 3 Nobz on Smasha squig to provide some Mortal wounds, along with 6 Bomb squigs spread across 6 units including 3 kommando units which from experience I can tell you punch well above their weight class.
The Snaggas will be hitching a lift in the Kill Rig which will be turn 1 blitzing up the field with his +1 to move and +2 to advance Tyres which should give him a fairly safe charge 1st turn which can be guaranteed with Ramming speed. The Battlewagon is there to look intimidating, ferry grots to the frontlines and if necessary get stuck in with his Deff Rolla.
I have 3 kommando units, a unit of trukkboyz and the Killrig all capable of a 1st turn charge which I'm hoping will keep my opponent defensively deployed which gives me more time to score primaries/secondaries.
I'll also point out that the Killrig (if I go first and it gets a good advance)has the ability of a 1st turn frazzle attack, which under the right circumstances can be devastating. I played against a guard player who wasn't expecting this and I got a frazzle off against about 9 different units all clustered together.
Now with that said, the downsides to this list is it bleeds secondaries in the form of character kills. 3 nob on smasha, 3 HQs, a painboy and my killrig.
let me know what you guys think and what should be tweaked.
My main critique is that the Painboy is going to be limited in his use because he can't actually heal the Beastboss on Squigosaur (which is cavalry) since he can only heal Infantry or Biker units. Unlike the Painboss, he can't even heal the regular Squighog boyz either. So I would drop him for something else since he'll only be able to help out the Weirdboy, which I don't believe is worth the 70 point investment.
Maybe throw in the Fortress on Wheels kustom job onto Battlewagon and take another grot unit or KMK? Not sure what else you would be able to spend the points on.
koooaei wrote: I don't get how is snikrot any good? He seems pretty overcosted for what you get.
Am I seeing him wrong? Got a model anywayz. But it just lies unpainted for like 5 years straight.
Snikrot is okay. He's a relatively cheap pseudo-warboss that's something of a turn one threat, especially in a Kommando heavy list. His main drawback is that he needs to be in terrain to do actual damage and make his save decent.
Mostly he's a distraction Warboss that's going to chew through small ObSec units near or in the enemy lines, maybe splatting an exposed support character if he just needs to chip a few wounds off.
He's not nearly at the same level as Zagstruk or the other warbosses, but he's alright if you're short a Warboss option.
@Semper, I'll kind of parrot Grim here when I say to drop the painboy, he isn't really doing anything for the list.
If you drop a Smasha Squig as well, you'll save a handful of VP, and you can squeeze a unit of 8 tankbustas with 2 bomb squigs to ride about in the wagon. They will make the wagon a bit more of a worthwhile target compared to other more valuable units, and can still dish out some decent damage. It does mean that an extra unit of Grots has to walk though.
Or maybe add a few extra Squighogs? 2 units of 5 and a unit of 4?
Grimskul wrote: My main critique is that the Painboy is going to be limited in his use because he can't actually heal the Beastboss on Squigosaur (which is a Monster) since he can only heal Infantry or Biker units.
There was a minir “GT” somewhere W4 “GT” COULEEE CON 2022 and Joseph Brannen was 2nd with the speedmob.
15 player tournament is not so much relevant, but it was 5 games and Joseph make a short but relevant reports in his comments on FB, so I put it there, because it is pretty interesting
We saw such lists in CI couple of weeks ago too. And there was always the question - why ES and what secondaries? So I took this like an opportunity to look inside:
Joseph said:
“Secondaries - most of the time, Behind Enemy Lines, Assassinate/Bring it down, and Grind them Down. Deploy each plane in the corners of your deployment, put the koptas in the forward most ruin on your side then definitely have the scraps obscured behind a wall if you can help it.
Driven by Dakka - Move shoot move gets me four points on behind enemy lines or gets a buggy unit out of a bad situation fast.”
So he simply dakka the enemy down to the dust while sending unit after unit via Driven by Dakka to enemy deploy to score Behind Enemy Lines.
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SemperMortis wrote: Alright Boyz, heading off to another GT and I want your input. Going to be playing Goffs, but going to be taking it back a bit, i'll be playing a tempo list rather than a pure Alphork strike list.
Spoiler:
3x Nobz on Smasha Squig (No FO Slot)
Beastboss on Squig: Ard As nailz/BeastHide Mantle.
Going to be taking the ork secondaries pretty heavily, specifically Da biggest and da Best and Get da good bitz.
For Biggest and Best My Beastboss on Squig has -1 to wound, -1dmg and a 5+ FNP and 5+ Invuln. Hes also going to be operating with the Painboy to get him some heals when necessary. Since he isn't able to be targeted (Unlike Ghaz) he should last at least 3 turns which guarantees me 6pts, and realistically I don't plan on getting less than 8-10 from him a game.
For get the good bits...well 3 units of Grots. have them move up the field and just rotate in to score me 5VP. I should max out this secondary by the 3rd turn.
Beyond that, I have 3 Nobz on Smasha squig to provide some Mortal wounds, along with 6 Bomb squigs spread across 6 units including 3 kommando units which from experience I can tell you punch well above their weight class.
The Snaggas will be hitching a lift in the Kill Rig which will be turn 1 blitzing up the field with his +1 to move and +2 to advance Tyres which should give him a fairly safe charge 1st turn which can be guaranteed with Ramming speed. The Battlewagon is there to look intimidating, ferry grots to the frontlines and if necessary get stuck in with his Deff Rolla.
I have 3 kommando units, a unit of trukkboyz and the Killrig all capable of a 1st turn charge which I'm hoping will keep my opponent defensively deployed which gives me more time to score primaries/secondaries.
I'll also point out that the Killrig (if I go first and it gets a good advance)has the ability of a 1st turn frazzle attack, which under the right circumstances can be devastating. I played against a guard player who wasn't expecting this and I got a frazzle off against about 9 different units all clustered together.
Now with that said, the downsides to this list is it bleeds secondaries in the form of character kills. 3 nob on smasha, 3 HQs, a painboy and my killrig.
let me know what you guys think and what should be tweaked.
I think this kind of the list have to be bespoke made to fit individual playstyle, so I any comments are littel bit tricky..
- painboy was commented already
- I' m not in 5 model squad of riders. With Ld 6, this tends to be problem… + I 'm not in single Mek gun at all. This do mostly nothing and is a big lucklaster = what about to change 2 riders and KMK for another squad infantry? In such lust, it could be handy.
koooaei wrote: I don't get how is snikrot any good? He seems pretty overcosted for what you get.
Am I seeing him wrong? Got a model anywayz. But it just lies unpainted for like 5 years straight.
Snikrot is okay. He's a relatively cheap pseudo-warboss that's something of a turn one threat, especially in a Kommando heavy list. His main drawback is that he needs to be in terrain to do actual damage and make his save decent.
Mostly he's a distraction Warboss that's going to chew through small ObSec units near or in the enemy lines, maybe splatting an exposed support character if he just needs to chip a few wounds off.
He's not nearly at the same level as Zagstruk or the other warbosses, but he's alright if you're short a Warboss option.
His strength is the force multiplier on Kommandos. If he supports a unit with a Distraction Grot it hits and wounds on 2+ vs <=T4 which sweeps away MEQ in my experience. Don´t forget the Breacher Ram.
After his initial support charge with Kommandos, Dead Sneaky is good to reposition him.
***
In other news I´m growing on Warbikers. They are Core meaning they move 20" during melee Waagh! making them great 1st turn chargers. The second good role is to screen the Biggest and Best Warlord T1 before the transports unloads the Boyz.
Warbikers are great, but not for charge. They just a bloody boyz. But they are perfect screen and objective takers.
My belowed tactics was to drive 3-4biker squads 1,1” in front of some non-fly melee monsters a block them. Especailly Black Templars and Dead Guard love it.
SemperMortis wrote: Alright Boyz, heading off to another GT and I want your input. Going to be playing Goffs, but going to be taking it back a bit, i'll be playing a tempo list rather than a pure Alphork strike list.
3x Nobz on Smasha Squig (No FO Slot)
Beastboss on Squig: Ard As nailz/BeastHide Mantle.
Going to be taking the ork secondaries pretty heavily, specifically Da biggest and da Best and Get da good bitz.
For Biggest and Best My Beastboss on Squig has -1 to wound, -1dmg and a 5+ FNP and 5+ Invuln. Hes also going to be operating with the Painboy to get him some heals when necessary. Since he isn't able to be targeted (Unlike Ghaz) he should last at least 3 turns which guarantees me 6pts, and realistically I don't plan on getting less than 8-10 from him a game.
For get the good bits...well 3 units of Grots. have them move up the field and just rotate in to score me 5VP. I should max out this secondary by the 3rd turn.
Beyond that, I have 3 Nobz on Smasha squig to provide some Mortal wounds, along with 6 Bomb squigs spread across 6 units including 3 kommando units which from experience I can tell you punch well above their weight class.
The Snaggas will be hitching a lift in the Kill Rig which will be turn 1 blitzing up the field with his +1 to move and +2 to advance Tyres which should give him a fairly safe charge 1st turn which can be guaranteed with Ramming speed. The Battlewagon is there to look intimidating, ferry grots to the frontlines and if necessary get stuck in with his Deff Rolla.
I have 3 kommando units, a unit of trukkboyz and the Killrig all capable of a 1st turn charge which I'm hoping will keep my opponent defensively deployed which gives me more time to score primaries/secondaries.
I'll also point out that the Killrig (if I go first and it gets a good advance)has the ability of a 1st turn frazzle attack, which under the right circumstances can be devastating. I played against a guard player who wasn't expecting this and I got a frazzle off against about 9 different units all clustered together.
Now with that said, the downsides to this list is it bleeds secondaries in the form of character kills. 3 nob on smasha, 3 HQs, a painboy and my killrig.
let me know what you guys think and what should be tweaked.
it reminds me a lot about my own list that im going to bring to a GT the 3rd and 4th of september.
I run a battalion and a patrol though.
Goffs Big mek with kustom force field Zagstruk Weirdboy, Fist of gork/Da Jump (because my GT still runs the 2" ruin rule) Beast boss on squig, warlord, ard as nails, beasthide mantle
2x10 beastsnagga boys 10 grots 2x10 orrible Gitz Grots
3x10Kommandos, with bomb squigs and powerklaws 3x4 Squig riders with bomb squigs 2x10 Stormboys
2x Kill Rigs, frazzle/squiggly curse, and Frazzle/Spirit of gork.
I run 10 grots for holding the backline and 20 for Good bits, Kommandos for counter charges, stormboys for flying behind enemy lines and harassing and hitting things, along side zagstruk that tries to snipe characters or vulnerable units. Although given my GT allows the 2" engagement range rule in ruins, i think both zagstrukk and my stormboys might end up in deepstrike for that easier to reach charge range. does it become 7 or 8 inches? i cant remember.
Good bits, Biggest and da best, and maybe psychic interrogation or greentide will be my game plan. I give up assassinate and prisoners though
SemperMortis wrote: Alright Boyz, heading off to another GT and I want your input. Going to be playing Goffs, but going to be taking it back a bit, i'll be playing a tempo list rather than a pure Alphork strike list.
3x Nobz on Smasha Squig (No FO Slot)
Beastboss on Squig: Ard As nailz/BeastHide Mantle.
Going to be taking the ork secondaries pretty heavily, specifically Da biggest and da Best and Get da good bitz.
For Biggest and Best My Beastboss on Squig has -1 to wound, -1dmg and a 5+ FNP and 5+ Invuln. Hes also going to be operating with the Painboy to get him some heals when necessary. Since he isn't able to be targeted (Unlike Ghaz) he should last at least 3 turns which guarantees me 6pts, and realistically I don't plan on getting less than 8-10 from him a game.
For get the good bits...well 3 units of Grots. have them move up the field and just rotate in to score me 5VP. I should max out this secondary by the 3rd turn.
Beyond that, I have 3 Nobz on Smasha squig to provide some Mortal wounds, along with 6 Bomb squigs spread across 6 units including 3 kommando units which from experience I can tell you punch well above their weight class.
The Snaggas will be hitching a lift in the Kill Rig which will be turn 1 blitzing up the field with his +1 to move and +2 to advance Tyres which should give him a fairly safe charge 1st turn which can be guaranteed with Ramming speed. The Battlewagon is there to look intimidating, ferry grots to the frontlines and if necessary get stuck in with his Deff Rolla.
I have 3 kommando units, a unit of trukkboyz and the Killrig all capable of a 1st turn charge which I'm hoping will keep my opponent defensively deployed which gives me more time to score primaries/secondaries.
I'll also point out that the Killrig (if I go first and it gets a good advance)has the ability of a 1st turn frazzle attack, which under the right circumstances can be devastating. I played against a guard player who wasn't expecting this and I got a frazzle off against about 9 different units all clustered together.
Now with that said, the downsides to this list is it bleeds secondaries in the form of character kills. 3 nob on smasha, 3 HQs, a painboy and my killrig.
let me know what you guys think and what should be tweaked.
I just ran the squig tire killrig yesterday in a game. It's a lot of fun, sadly didn't get my frazzle off though
I like the list overall. If it was me personally, I'd drop the painboy and a smasha nob and get some MANz to ride in your BW or maybe make the MANz your trukk boys so depending on your game you'd have the option to go more full alphork strike haha.
Burnas are another really solid option since they could clear chaff for your killrigs turn 1 charges. If you have some extra points I usually find their zzapkrumpa upgrade worth it if you can get warpath on them. Squad of 10 avg about 5.6 mortals. I'd probably use those 20 pts to put breacha rams on the kommandos first though.
Best of luck though mate, I'm sure you'll make us proud
I mean with hard counters like knights you just take bring it down especially with the currently popular Armiger spam lists… biggest and baddest I like to think of as a solid 10pt backup when bring it down or assassinate is not obviously easier.
First, good catch on the Painboy! I had originally brought a Warboss in Mega armor, but I think the Beastboss has a better survival chance than the Warboss with Da Krushin armor and hadn't even thought about the fact that painboyz can't heal cavalry because a Warbike is apparently more easily fixed by a doctor than an animal . I'll be bumping the Painboy along with the 2 extra Squig riders for ....something. In a regular battalion i'm maxed out on every slot except Elite and troop. I'm leaning towards a unit of 10 Zzapkrumpa Burna boyz as someone recommended, but I honestly can't think of anything else to bring. I'm not a huge fan of Meganobz even though I have about 12, they just die too easily, especially in a game where everyone is building -2 and -3AP into their lists to deal with AoC Marines. I have 120pts, lets see your best suggestions!
CaptainO wrote: @sempermortis I like the list but after playing something similar the following 2 points jumped out at me
1. Assuming max gtgbs by t3 only exists on half the maps without grot herders.
2.Against knights even if you don't take biggest and the best you won't have a lot that can take down a big knight in one turn.
Other than that I really like the list. I think grots are going to climb the target priority ladder as people get stung playing against gtgbs.
With GTGBS it says You score it at the end of your turn with grots, but you can easily get another unit doing the action on another objective with relative ease, especially in my list. So theoretically I can have my Kommandos do it turn 1 and my grots take over turns 2 and 3. Conversely I can score with the Trukkboyz or even my Squighog cavalry which is basically a turn 2 threat anyway. This list is littered with options on scoring secondaries and quickly tagging things.
As far as your 2nd point...yep. But Biggest and the best says I score additional points for WOUNDING a vehicle as well, which means I can score 4VP that turn by just using his Beastboss abilities to kick the knight in the nuts. As far as dealing with a Knight in and of itself. 6 Bomb squigs average 10dmg, 3 Smasha Nobz average 7.5dmg (just on the charge), a single unit of Kommandos in cover (waaagh turn) average 7.5dmg and the nob averages another couple dmg, so I have the tools to deal with knights, but it will take multiple units to do so.
Finally on that last note you left about grots. I agree, but I'll gladly have my opponents wasting time turn 1 shooting grots rather than my good units
Grimskul wrote: My main critique is that the Painboy is going to be limited in his use because he can't actually heal the Beastboss on Squigosaur (which is a Monster) since he can only heal Infantry or Biker units.
Beastboss is cavalry, but same difference.
Thanks for the correction! I think with all the big Monster keyword centerpiece models in 9th so far I've got it mixed up with our Beastboss because frankly he feels like more of a Monster character given the model size and his tankiness. The last game I had with him against Harlequins he basically tanked all his CC units at once and only took 5 wounds even though he popped 5 CP's worth of strats to mortal wound and auto wound the Beastboss down.
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SemperMortis wrote: First, good catch on the Painboy! I had originally brought a Warboss in Mega armor, but I think the Beastboss has a better survival chance than the Warboss with Da Krushin armor and hadn't even thought about the fact that painboyz can't heal cavalry because a Warbike is apparently more easily fixed by a doctor than an animal . I'll be bumping the Painboy along with the 2 extra Squig riders for ....something. In a regular battalion i'm maxed out on every slot except Elite and troop. I'm leaning towards a unit of 10 Zzapkrumpa Burna boyz as someone recommended, but I honestly can't think of anything else to bring. I'm not a huge fan of Meganobz even though I have about 12, they just die too easily, especially in a game where everyone is building -2 and -3AP into their lists to deal with AoC Marines. I have 120pts, lets see your best suggestions!
CaptainO wrote: @sempermortis I like the list but after playing something similar the following 2 points jumped out at me
1. Assuming max gtgbs by t3 only exists on half the maps without grot herders.
2.Against knights even if you don't take biggest and the best you won't have a lot that can take down a big knight in one turn.
Other than that I really like the list. I think grots are going to climb the target priority ladder as people get stung playing against gtgbs.
With GTGBS it says You score it at the end of your turn with grots, but you can easily get another unit doing the action on another objective with relative ease, especially in my list. So theoretically I can have my Kommandos do it turn 1 and my grots take over turns 2 and 3. Conversely I can score with the Trukkboyz or even my Squighog cavalry which is basically a turn 2 threat anyway. This list is littered with options on scoring secondaries and quickly tagging things.
As far as your 2nd point...yep. But Biggest and the best says I score additional points for WOUNDING a vehicle as well, which means I can score 4VP that turn by just using his Beastboss abilities to kick the knight in the nuts. As far as dealing with a Knight in and of itself. 6 Bomb squigs average 10dmg, 3 Smasha Nobz average 7.5dmg (just on the charge), a single unit of Kommandos in cover (waaagh turn) average 7.5dmg and the nob averages another couple dmg, so I have the tools to deal with knights, but it will take multiple units to do so.
Finally on that last note you left about grots. I agree, but I'll gladly have my opponents wasting time turn 1 shooting grots rather than my good units
I would go for burna boyz with zzapkrumpas. If you have the spare CP, putting them in strategic reserves isn't bad if the terrain setup isn't optimal for them, and being able to advance, shoot and charge during a WAAAGH! turn gives them a lot of flexibility on their usage on a respective unit cost. They've been a fantastic counter charge unit and I feel most opponent's underestimate them until they get a taste of the burny dance.
Sazzlefrats wrote: How do we play Orks into Chaos Marines and Imperial Guard.
This whole armor of contempt and army wide AP-2 is a real bear.
Imperial Guard shouldn't be too much of an issue for you, even with their recent rules buffs given that their codex is in a terrible spot and they generally find it hard to contest central objectives due to lack of quality CC units (Bullgryn aren't very great and are slow, and are basically all they have if they don't run Death Korps Death Riders or gimmicky Catachan heavy Straken buffed infantry lists) and AoC only applies to their Leman Russes and Super Heavies. Make sure you have multiple fast units that can engage with his tanks as quickly as possible (i.e. Trukkboy Meganobz with Dual Killsaws or Stormboyz advancing 18" during WAAAGH!) and other units that can ideally blow through his infantry screens. Goff pressure lists are good against guard since you if you can pin in him inside his deployment zone, even if he manages to clear you out, by the time that happens you'll have squatted on the center objectives and other secondaries long enough that you should ideally outscore him so he can't catch up with his 1 or 2 turns remaining.
Chaos Marines, I feel like we don't treat that much differently than regular marines. Depending on the type of list you're making, you bring stuff like bomb squigs via Kommandos, Tankbustas or Squighog boyz to get around AoC. KMK are decent, since they're AP-3 base and if you're taking Ghazzy, you can get it up to AP-4 and 5+ invulns across your army with advance and charge to get some good hits in. I've also seen Wazbom blastajets even outside of Speedmob lists because they have enough AP and damage.
Otherwise, build your list on fulfilling secondaries like Get Da Good Bitz, Green Tide or Biggest and the Baddest.
Sazzlefrats wrote: How do we play Orks into Chaos Marines and Imperial Guard.
This whole armor of contempt and army wide AP-2 is a real bear.
My mechanized Grot force shoots them. ALOT. With a whole bunch of high str/AP weapons.
My only real CC is often limited to a single Warboss in mega armor. Makari, the Red Gobbo on squig, & maybe a few Runtherds do what they can as needed. Most of my CC kills to date have come from using ramming speed on a truck. Sometimes a Grot tank. Now & then on a Gun.
Meanwhile I try & out score them.
I have yet to lose a single game to IG this entire edition. They are still in a horrendous spot because the fact remains that their codex just isn't good for 9th.
As far as CSM....I have no clue yet, I have literally not run into a Chaos player since their new stuff came out. I'm kind of looking forward to playing a few games against them this weekend or possibly next.
As far as my previous comment, is the general consensus here to field a mob of 10 Burna Boyz? (well, 8 with 2 Spanners). If that is the case i'm thinking about just leaving them in the BW turn 1 so they can rush up the field safely and then turn 2 be able to contest objectives or even just stay in the wagon and become a mobile flame template, should after 28(ish) S4 hits and 6-10 shots from big shootas (I'm not upgrading to KMBs)
Going to be interesting/hard having to force myself to play *Gasp* Conservatively and not bum rush straight into my enemies while screaming WAAAAAAGH! as loudly as I can. Fact remains that the Beastboss on Squiggy is pretty much guaranteed 8-10pts a game, and if I can hold a center objective to score GTGB I easily cap off another 9-12 while also scoring at least minimum from primaries.
The real trick is going to be playing aggressively with some units to tie up my opponent in his own zone while also keeping enough back to score objectives/secondaries all game long.
“
Sample List(s) / both list was there in my CI report….
Michael Mann – 4th Place – Denver Fight Club 40k Major - Goff Pressure
Robert Hawkins – 3rd Place – Grand Onslaught 4 - Blood Axe Infantry Spam
Why are they Tier 2?
Thanks to the boosts to Waaaagh! and some pretty decent Secondaries, Ork lists built around lots of bodies can apply some serious pressure, and pressure wins games. Goffs have been the dominant force just due to their sheer killiness, but recently some players are experimenting relatively successfully with Blood Axes as well, with the extra Stratagems for Kommandos helping make them very tough to shift.
Do They Need Changes?
Probably not. The problem that Orks currently have is that they’re particularly weak into the top three factions, which can just outclass them on the kind of game they want to play. Taking them down a bit should do more to help Orks than it does for most armies. It would be nice to see a bit more list diversity, and something to help out the Speedwaaagh certainly wouldn’t go amiss. Their biggest problem is that they struggle to rack up Secondaries, and also run out of detachment slots without burning a tonne of CP, so maybe let BIKER CORE units perform Get Da Good Bits in that list, and also let them take nine Fast Attack slots rather than six in an Outrider.“
I'd say tier two is a fair assessment, although I disagree that we struggle with secondaries. I'd definitely say we sometimes struggle to Max secondaries, but generally we do pretty well as far as they're concerned.
I completely agree that list diversity will die once Speed Mob goes away. It's already on the way out, and that will be the nail in the coffin before we end up as a 90% of every list is identical kind of faction.
I agree with the assessment that waaagh vs speedwaaagh has flip-flopped, and speedwaaagh feels a bit so-so right now.
I'm curious what would be good options to bring it up a bit? I'd hate for it to just continue to pump more AP or shots, or step on the toes of Speed Mob. It'd also be neat to have it actually do something related to the "speed" in the name of the ability. So some sort of movement bonus, maybe? Vehicle and Biker units gain 2" movement for a turn? +1" to charge rolls?
Speedwaagh only feels so-so because of armor of contempt.
Vast majority of our guns are AP0, or low rate of fire. So most of Speedwaagh literally does nothing.
Vineheart01 wrote: Speedwaagh only feels so-so because of armor of contempt.
Vast majority of our guns are AP0, or low rate of fire. So most of Speedwaagh literally does nothing.
It doesn't help that the part of advancing and shooting with assault weapons with no penalty is more or less a waste of ink given that so many of our weapons are now heavy or dakka unlike before. (it also steps on Evil Sunz shoes which is kinda redundant). Like you said, it's just there for the AP, since I feel like the extra dakka shot per gun doesn't make that big of a difference.
I would also say that most SpeedWAAAGH! lists come across the issue of negatives to hit against shooting being so prolific, either through terrain, strats, wargear or just faction rules, and hitting on 6's makes it very difficult to push through what little firepower we can actually get to hit on opponents. Freebooterz used to be one of the way around this, but I feel combined with AoC and the way the meta has shifted, even they're not enough. Now that regular WAAAGH! has a good mix of offense and defense, SpeedWAAAGH!'s main thing should be more reliability when it comes to shooting. Having all vehicles, bikerz and units inside transports always hit on unmodded 5's and 6's during the entirety of a SpeedWAAAGH! would be a good way of adding something that isn't a flat offensive boost next to AP, and even give some incentive to take stuff like tankbustas or flash gitz in a speedwaaagh without them feeling like they're less mobile than everything else.
Afrodactyl wrote: I'd say tier two is a fair assessment, although I disagree that we struggle with secondaries. I'd definitely say we sometimes struggle to Max secondaries, but generally we do pretty well as far as they're concerned.
I completely agree that list diversity will die once Speed Mob goes away. It's already on the way out, and that will be the nail in the coffin before we end up as a 90% of every list is identical kind of faction.
The point was that SPEEDWAAGH /SpeedMob suffers with secondaries and that is true. Not the Orks as an army. Speed Mob fades away because it' s hard to make it score.
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Madjob wrote: I agree with the assessment that waaagh vs speedwaaagh has flip-flopped, and speedwaaagh feels a bit so-so right now.
I'm curious what would be good options to bring it up a bit? I'd hate for it to just continue to pump more AP or shots, or step on the toes of Speed Mob. It'd also be neat to have it actually do something related to the "speed" in the name of the ability. So some sort of movement bonus, maybe? Vehicle and Biker units gain 2" movement for a turn? +1" to charge rolls?
It' s not about the dakka. Speedwaagh can do a very nice dakka. Look at the speedwaagh lists that scores - all works around pure killing and moving - Behind, Assasinate/Bring it down, Grind them down, Abhorn.
But it is super hard to make it scoring and working. That is what is needed:
- more FA slots for free
- some suitable secondaries or / and
- make SM warbikers passing Bitz like grots
- fix Nob bikers to be CORE, Big Red Button, Cloud of Smoke
- fix Kannonwagon to be WAGON
give me such nob bikers and 12 slots and even with actual secondaries, it would be a ride!
I'd like to clarify that I'm specifically talking about Speedwaaagh the army mechanic and not Speed Mob the army of renown. To a certain point they're synonymous, but I don't think GW has addressed any War Zone content in terms of adjusting army balance yet, so an expectation of that is unrealistic in my opinion.
But the WAAAGH bonus really helps them push it over the top in a lot of ways.
