Good note. I speak purly about Speedmob, because I ' ve never seen a competitive list of Speedwaagh without speedmob for more than a year or something…
Automatically Appended Next Post: Competitive innovation part 1 this week are pretty orky and finaly interesting!
Salt Lake Open - notoriously known Richard Kiltone 8th with Deathskull infantry brigade spam
CaptainO wrote: Ref the kustom stompa list, does a super heavy auxilary detachment now refund all the cp now? Because otherwise....
its legal. in battlescribe when you add a super heavy aux you have to manually add both the detachment cost and the Shared Faction Bonus to get the 3cp refund.
Going to be trying out the list in the spoilers, having absorbed some of the knowledge from you guys in here. Most notable changes are the ditching of my Deffkoptas, DakkaMek and Bikerboss, and adding of a second Squigboss, a Battlewagon and some Zzapkrumpas Burna boys.
I'm not gearing up for a particular tournament or anything at the moment, just tweaking. Please let me know what you think.
The Kommandos, Trukk Boys and Zagstruk (in the Trukk) are the turn one threat, the Squigs and the Burna Wagon are the turn two threat. The Mek Guns sit and hold the home plate, ideally one on either flank, or one on an objective and one on the opposite flank.
There's a total of eleven Core units for fulfilling actions/objectives. There's also absolutely buttloads of MW potential.
The only thing I'm iffy about is the second boys unit, who are not Trukk Boys. At the moment they will be in the BW with the Burnas and can help the Burnas knock off a troublesome unit that they don't manage to shift on their own. However they otherwise don't really fit. I don't have the points to replace them with Beast Snaggas (I've already had to cut my beloved Breach Rams ), and I'd rather not have to paint another twenty Gretchen if I can avoid it.
Tomsug wrote: You don' t have 90 grot from the end of 8th?
I thought I did, but I also spent a lot of 8th refusing to run the Grot spam lists, so maybe I didn't have as many as I thought.
The only other explanation is that they're deep in storage somewhere, my partner is slowly and secretly selling my minis, or the cat has been eating them.
:EDIT:
Is anyone able to tell me how a Squigosaur compares to the Squig from the Kill Rig set in terms of size? I have a conversion in mind, and a quick favour would be greatly appreciated.
Tomsug wrote: Good note. I speak purly about Speedmob, because I ' ve never seen a competitive list of Speedwaagh without speedmob for more than a year or something…
Automatically Appended Next Post: Competitive innovation part 1 this week are pretty orky and finaly interesting!
Salt Lake Open - notoriously known Richard Kiltone 8th with Deathskull infantry brigade spam
To be fair, i recently ran a list with 2 rigs full of snagga boys, and a battlewagon full of 10 nobz (5 choppa, 5 big choppa) and 10 beast snagga boys.
It actually did rather well. If you can get the Nobz in on the turn you waaagh, then the 5++ coupled with their own 4+ isnt too bad with 2 wounds each.
The trick simply is to not get near damage 2 units, which sadly there is a lot of.
So i dont know if i find Nobz competitive, but it also werent as bad as i think i thought it would be.
It does suck that I'd start with 0cp so wouldn't be able to pop the 5++ kff T1 unless I go first. The list while probably not too competitive actually has some secondary options.
Knights list these days are running approx 132 wounds (84 t7, 48 t8)while this list has 145 (88 t8, 12 t7, 11 t5 and 34 t3) with the kff, great waagh and fnp the list may have a similar survivability to taranis (although less good shooting and maybe parity in combat overall.
I'm also looking at a freeboota version with a Kustom stompa with belly gun to maximise firepower (+1 to hit) but Id lose the fnp. Maybe mixing in a rukkatrukk to kick the shooting off with it's built in +1 to hit.
Has anyone tried running an Ork super heavy since the most recent changes?
I was also relooking at wazboms. The fact that can give them a 5++ and 6+ over two turns means one could probably save 20pt on the blasta force field and means they'll always get access to the sweet sweet s3 stickbomm flinga.
:EDIT:
Is anyone able to tell me how a Squigosaur compares to the Squig from the Kill Rig set in terms of size? I have a conversion in mind, and a quick favour would be greatly appreciated.
The squig on the Killrig is slightly smaller but you can use it for a conversion on the squigasaur size base and it wouldn’t look out of place.
It does suck that I'd start with 0cp so wouldn't be able to pop the 5++ kff T1 unless I go first. The list while probably not too competitive actually has some secondary options.
Knights list these days are running approx 132 wounds (84 t7, 48 t8)while this list has 145 (88 t8, 12 t7, 11 t5 and 34 t3) with the kff, great waagh and fnp the list may have a similar survivability to taranis (although less good shooting and maybe parity in combat overall.
I'm also looking at a freeboota version with a Kustom stompa with belly gun to maximise firepower (+1 to hit) but Id lose the fnp. Maybe mixing in a rukkatrukk to kick the shooting off with it's built in +1 to hit.
Has anyone tried running an Ork super heavy since the most recent changes?
I was also relooking at wazboms. The fact that can give them a 5++ and 6+ over two turns means one could probably save 20pt on the blasta force field and means they'll always get access to the sweet sweet s3 stickbomm flinga.
I like it! Second Naut instead of killtank will make it better meme
:EDIT:
Is anyone able to tell me how a Squigosaur compares to the Squig from the Kill Rig set in terms of size? I have a conversion in mind, and a quick favour would be greatly appreciated.
The squig on the Killrig is slightly smaller but you can use it for a conversion on the squigasaur size base and it wouldn’t look out of place.
[/spoiler]
It does suck that I'd start with 0cp so wouldn't be able to pop the 5++ kff T1 unless I go first. The list while probably not too competitive actually has some secondary options.
Knights list these days are running approx 132 wounds (84 t7, 48 t8)while this list has 145 (88 t8, 12 t7, 11 t5 and 34 t3) with the kff, great waagh and fnp the list may have a similar survivability to taranis (although less good shooting and maybe parity in combat overall.
I'm also looking at a freeboota version with a Kustom stompa with belly gun to maximise firepower (+1 to hit) but Id lose the fnp. Maybe mixing in a rukkatrukk to kick the shooting off with it's built in +1 to hit.
Has anyone tried running an Ork super heavy since the most recent changes?
I was also relooking at wazboms. The fact that can give them a 5++ and 6+ over two turns means one could probably save 20pt on the blasta force field and means they'll always get access to the sweet sweet s3 stickbomm flinga.
I like it! Second Naut instead of killtank will make it better meme
ya I couldn't fit a gorkanaut in without losing some key lynchpin units, losing stuff like fnps/+1 to hit access to psychic secondaries etc.
I could lose the klaw on the kommandos and either the weirdboy (and therefore psychic defense and access to psychic secondaries as well as the ability to give the naughts/stompa +1 (and therefore+3) attacks) with warpath) or I could lose the nob with waagh banner but I like the idea of +1 to hit on an 8 attack S20 ap-5 d9 stompa.
Could you make the arrangement that a barebones killtank is a better pound for pound fighter than a a second morkanaut?
Salty Classic GT - Hemdrik Alvarez second with Es Speed Mob
Smaller “GT” (25 people). But imteresting list utilizing to max 2 detachements with 3 independed squigbuggies for max screen of your deploy and 3 independed SJDs for max screen and max Behind/Engage scoring.
And no deffkoptas.
I dont' t take the relic and trait on first watrike however…
I remember reading a while back Freebooterz was changed from +1 to RR1s a while back.
I cannot find the FAQ or errata that lists this. I was watching the Art of War faction focus about Orks and they talked about Freebooterz still being +1 to hit (under circumstances).
Can someone show me were GW changed the ruling? I looked at the latest FAQ and Balance Sheet.
I remember reading a while back Freebooterz was changed from +1 to RR1s a while back.
I cannot find the FAQ or errata that lists this. I was watching the Art of War faction focus about Orks and they talked about Freebooterz still being +1 to hit (under circumstances).
Can someone show me were GW changed the ruling? I looked at the latest FAQ and Balance Sheet.
Especially for my Admech i wish they'd keep any redacted changes and just cross them out.
I feel i cant even play my admech right now because i cant keep it straight in my head what is actually applicable right now lol.
(Nevermind that admech royally suck right now)
Battle in the Bush 2022 - Dale Mann 7th with Goffs and Ghazzy
Spoiler:
Army name: Orks
Factions used: Orks
Command Points: 6+3-1-1-1-1-1-3=1
Total cost: 2000 pts, 116 PL Reinforcement Points: none pts
Number of Units: 17
Assassination: 15 points
Bring it Down: 10 points
No Prisoners: 10 points
Abhor the Witch: 9 points
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
No Force Org Slot:
- Nob on Smasha Squig: 4. Brutal but Kunnin, Headwoppa's Killchoppa, Stratagem: Big Boss, Stratagem: Extra Gubbinz [65 pts, 4 PL, -2 CP]
HQ1: Beastboss on Squigosaur: 3. 'Ard as Nails, Beasthide Mantle, Stratagem: Big Boss, Stratagem: Extra Gubbinz [160 pts, 9 PL, -2 CP]
HQ2: Boss Zagstruk [110 pts, 6 PL]
HQ3: Weirdboy: 2. Warpath, 4. Fists of Gork [70 pts, 4 PL]
Huxleys Open 2022 - David Roick - DEATHSKULLS with Ghazzy and two Kannonwagons and two Wazbooms
Spoiler:
+ PLAYER: David „Davit“ Roick
+ ARMY FACTION: Orks
+ WARLORD: Ghazghkull
+ TOTAL COMMAND POINTS: 0 (6-3-2+3-1-2-1)
+ TOTAL ARMY POINTS: 2000pts / Powerlevel: 107 PL + TOTAL REINFORCEMENT POINTS: Not Applicable
+ TEAM: Liga der kompetitiven Gentlemen
Interesting seeing a big squad of footslogging manz. Does seem like a lot of points he's sinking into that squad, but hey they'll definitely be able to control the center for at least 1-2 turns and slap some stuff. I do like the hyper aggressiveness of the list including the all offense no defense squigboss.
I'm still not sold on the triple squignobs. I know they can trade up fairly easily, but the auto max assassinate you give all your opponents I feel like is a problem and might of been the deciding factor in the one draw he had.
Afrodactyl wrote: I've been trying out a solo stompamatic Deff Dread with all klaws, and I'm really enjoying it in my Goffs list. A perfect distraction carnifex.
Is this the ideal build for Deff Dreads? What's other people's experiences?
For me it's either one dread with all saws or two dreads with double KMBs each. A single dread with KMB is just too swingy, and two dreads with saws are too much points being dead weight if you are facing an opponent refusing/avoiding close combat.
But it seems a lot of people are taking Ghaz, and im not entirely sure why.
Im honestly running somewhat similar list to these lists with 2 kill rigs, but im not running ghaz. Hes 300 points and for that i dont honestly feel like i get all that much out of him.
But maybe its because the single battalion detatchment is otherwise filled up to the brim that they dont know what else to go for.
Ghaz, though, is the same price as a kill rig and 10 snagga boyz though, so i would probably just get a third rig and 10 snagga boys.
Anyway, my own list dont have Ghaz, and maybe i just dont utilize him properly enough. But for a Goff list that dont benefit at all from his speed waaagh part (except for what, 2 rigs?) i dont really see why running him is great. But clearly it is since a lot is doing exactly that.
Ghaz both offers both halves of the waaagh so if you have any vehicles or bikers they double-dip the benefits and he also gives a goff reroll in melee, which orks almost have none of.
ghaz is for sure overpriced asf. For what he offers he should be around 230(ish) when comparing to other armies HQ's. I think people just like taking him because he's fun to play with and players sometimes panic and throw their best AT at him instead of the killrigs.
He isn’t winning tournaments because people like taking him. He is a huge distraction unit that is our biggest melee threat. He is our most secure warlord. Almost always lives to turn 3 and provides an easy 10-12 points with biggest and baddest secondary… and is also our only full hit reroll aura. He also buffs both versions of Waagh which provides some benefit.
Ghaz issue is he’s relatively expensive for what he provides and is to slow to be a reliable melee threat. And more and more units are Ignoring/circumventing his strong invul and/or his wound per phase cap. The only thing preventing ghaz from being auto include in every list is the fact he’s about 2in to slow on movement and for his base cost makari should be included. (I wouldn’t mind seeing ghaz aura turn into reroll all hits instead of melee only and morks roar have ap-2 but that might be asking to much but it would mostly help scoring biggest and baddest secondary with ghaz)
Vineheart01 wrote: Ghaz both offers both halves of the waaagh so if you have any vehicles or bikers they double-dip the benefits and he also gives a goff reroll in melee, which orks almost have none of.
Not to mention, its freaking ghaz!
except none of the lists above with ghaz really features any vehicles barring maybe 2 or 3 kill rigs. And paying 300 points to get both waaghs, which i dont need, on top of being unable to run biggest and da best properly, im not sure hes worth it for me.
But thats the thing isnt it. it he has to be worth it otherwise people wouldnt run him. Even though many agree hes at least 50 points too expensive, people still run him. even in lists where his speed waaagh part dont really do anything meaningful.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
gungo wrote: He isn’t winning tournaments because people like taking him. He is a huge distraction unit that is our biggest melee threat. He is our most secure warlord. Almost always lives to turn 3 and provides an easy 10-12 points with biggest and baddest secondary… and is also our only full hit reroll aura. He also buffs both versions of Waagh…
Ghaz issue is he’s relatively expensive for what he provides and is to slow to be a reliable melee threat. And more and more units are Ignoring/circumventing his strong invul and/or his wound per phase cap. The only thing preventing ghaz from being auto include in every list is the fact he’s about 2in to slow on movement and for his base cost makari should be included.
I dont see him as our most secure warlord, at all. He does not have look out sir and he is not difficult to kill. at all.
Surviving past turn 3 isnt all dandy when you could have had a maybe even hardier boss, beast boss on squig with ard as nails and beasthide mantle, WITH look out sir, survive well past that.
He is a distraction, sure, but anyone that knows how to play and have faced him before, knows how to deal with him. He isnt casting any turn 1 charges, meaning you have free reign for at least 1 turn to shoot him. If orks has turn 1, the enemy will move block him.
There is nothing that stops my enemy from shooting ghaz except obscurring, so i absolutely would not, except barring a few exceptions, use biggest and the best with ghaz. Im not about to hide him away in the furthest objective from my enemy outside my DZ just to avoid him dying. I want him in the middle objective, but if i park him near there, nothing stops him from being shot to pieces.
In general what i find ghaz to be, is a noob slayer. but against skilled players, the 300 points are not a good investment. On the other hand, a beastboss with ard as nails and beasthide mantle is at least as much of a pain for your enemy because he has actual look out sir, can move further and can actually deal mortal wounds.
If you play against a psyker heavy faction, the beast boss with beasthide mantle also tanks all those C'tan movement ability attacks or psychic phase powers much better by having a 5+++ which ghaz does not have. unless you pay for Makari, for an aditional assassination point and a total sum of 350.
But sure there are cases where Ghaz would be great with biggest and da best. But i would definitely argue there are way more cases in which a beast boss on squig with relics/warlord traits does the job better.
Free turn to shoot? Has terrain amount suffered such a huge loss? Ghaz isn't even titanic nor is he such an awesome shooter you lose much value by having him behind obscuring terrain.
gungo wrote: He isn’t winning tournaments because people like taking him.
I mean he's not winning tournaments and at least half the lists orks are placing high in GT's aren't running him.
Almost always lives to turn 3
unless your playing against only tau or imps then he's dying turn 2 most times against decent players. 1k sons, grey knights, and nids will do it without even breaking a sweat.
gungo wrote: He isn’t winning tournaments because people like taking him.
I mean he's not winning tournaments and at least half the lists orks are placing high in GT's aren't running him.
Almost always lives to turn 3
unless your playing against only tau or imps then he's dying turn 2 most times against decent players. 1k sons, grey knights, and nids will do it without even breaking a sweat.
I mean he’s placing high in tournaments. I don’t know what tournament results you are looking at but the majority of the ork lists that are placing high are including him. He’s also living to turn 3 in most of them. In fact 1sons and greyknights have losing records vs orks… your online theory crafting doesn’t add up to actual play results. Nids are a whole different story as it’s the strongest faction in game currently and depending on the list has multiple ways to do Mortal wounds in several phases.
imo its just a mark for how janked up our codex is that ghaz is clearly not that great, but hes still used.
I really think they should have given us a 'Bigga Nob' character since they imposed that ridiculous warboss limit. Its not that big a deal for marines to get limited to 1 captain because they actually have other HQs, orks kinda dont. Weirdboyz are rarely useful and bigmeks are just KFF toters, nothing except bosses do reliable damage and nothing except Ghaz offers any auras that isnt limited to 1 unit.
Vineheart01 wrote: imo its just a mark for how janked up our codex is that ghaz is clearly not that great, but hes still used.
I really think they should have given us a 'Bigga Nob' character since they imposed that ridiculous warboss limit. Its not that big a deal for marines to get limited to 1 captain because they actually have other HQs, orks kinda dont. Weirdboyz are rarely useful and bigmeks are just KFF toters, nothing except bosses do reliable damage and nothing except Ghaz offers any auras that isnt limited to 1 unit.
It would be nice to get a "Nob Boss" character. Make it about 40 points and give it the Nob with Waaagh Banner profile, give it access to the normal Nobz warfare options and the Waaagh Banner's +1 to hit aura but with a 3" aura. Change the Waaagh Banner to do something else like +1 to wound, and add a caveat that the Nob Boss can never be the Warlord. Cheap, cheerful way of getting Warboss bonuses scattered around the board and filling out HQ slots.
tneva82 wrote: Free turn to shoot? Has terrain amount suffered such a huge loss? Ghaz isn't even titanic nor is he such an awesome shooter you lose much value by having him behind obscuring terrain.
True, but you have to remember he is slow and as a monster he can't walk through terrain. So if you put him behind something turn 1 then he has to walk around that terrain piece on his turn which makes him even slower.
Vineheart01 wrote: imo its just a mark for how janked up our codex is that ghaz is clearly not that great, but hes still used.
I really think they should have given us a 'Bigga Nob' character since they imposed that ridiculous warboss limit. Its not that big a deal for marines to get limited to 1 captain because they actually have other HQs, orks kinda dont. Weirdboyz are rarely useful and bigmeks are just KFF toters, nothing except bosses do reliable damage and nothing except Ghaz offers any auras that isnt limited to 1 unit.
It would be nice to get a "Nob Boss" character. Make it about 40 points and give it the Nob with Waaagh Banner profile, give it access to the normal Nobz warfare options and the Waaagh Banner's +1 to hit aura but with a 3" aura. Change the Waaagh Banner to do something else like +1 to wound, and add a caveat that the Nob Boss can never be the Warlord. Cheap, cheerful way of getting Warboss bonuses scattered around the board and filling out HQ slots.
Yeah, it's awesome that our Warbosses finally feel like the CC terrors they're supposed to be, but it does make our HQ's feel pretty anemic outside of that. Agreed that we need some Big Boss or Overboss character that's in between a Nob and Warboss. Maybe even make it similar to the old Council of WAAAGH! by having 2 of them take up only one slot if there is a Warboss in the same Detachment. Even having them give some type of morale buff aura that affects all Ork units like Killa Kanz would be nice for them to shore up our poor leadership.
I think it also shows that the rest of our HQ choices really need to have more interaction with the rest of our army to be honest. The Painboss is very limited and overpriced for what he brings. The Big Mek doesn't even do anything for our vehicles outside of healing them, which is incredibly difficult when you can no longer take him on a bike. The Weirdboy isn't terrible but very limited on what he can cast reliably, especially with the Warphead upgrade being removed.
I would much prefer if the Painboss had a command phase ability for their Dok Tool's instead of an aura, giving a CORE unit within 6" of them a 5+ FNP until the start of the next command phase. That or if they had a revive ability similar to Apothecaries/Technomancers, allow them to revive a CORE biker, cavalry, or infantry model that died to full wounds or if it has the BOYZ keyword, they bring back 2D3 models. (Painboyz would have a baby version of this, bringing back D3 instead).
Big Mek's (assuming we didn't rewrite the whole codex to include a separate DreadWAAAGH! option in addition to the two we) should be another unit that allows you to run a SpeedWAAAGH! besides Speedbosses and have a command phase ability where they can choose an Ork vehicle unit with 6" and give them +1 to hit, making KFF Big Meks actually have a role outside of being an overpriced caddy for a one-use wargear strat. Hell, it might even make SAG meks decent if you put them next to a Mek Gun Battery.
Weirdboyz I would say give them the option to upgrade them to Warpheads again for points (+1 to cast psychic powers, can cast and deny an extra time) and give them a more meaningful rule on how nearby Ork models affect his psychic powers, maybe something to do with inflicting more mortal wounds via witchfire psychic powers from excess WAAAGH! energy? I would be interested in how one would write a WeirdWAAAGH! type based around a Weirdboy as a leader, but that's for Proposed Rules.
gungo wrote: In fact 1sons and greyknights have losing records vs orks… your online theory crafting doesn’t add up to actual play results.
I just use goonhammer for pretty much everything which shows they have losing records against both those armies... Also from the last 2 weeks we've had 14 high placings and only 5 of those lists ran Ghaz, you can look at Tomsug's posts and see that. People are moving away from fielding him.
Anyways I also like the idea of a customizable boss nob. I am thankful gw has at least given the orks a lot of love with new unit releases over recent years as opposed to other xenos that I play *cough cough Drukari.
On the Nob Boss front, we already have models for footnobs, meganobz, stormboy nobs, biker nobs, etc. It could be the replacement character for all of the Warboss options lost over the years, without GW being made to release new kits.
gungo wrote: In fact 1sons and greyknights have losing records vs orks… your online theory crafting doesn’t add up to actual play results.
I just use goonhammer for pretty much everything which shows they have losing records against both those armies... Also from the last 2 weeks we've had 14 high placings and only 5 of those lists ran Ghaz, you can look at Tomsug's posts and see that. People are moving away from fielding him.
Anyways I also like the idea of a customizable boss nob. I am thankful gw has at least given the orks a lot of love with new unit releases over recent years as opposed to other xenos that I play *cough cough Drukari.
Ok cool yes right now the easiest tool you can use is goonhammers data dashboard. You can search for orks as the primary army and even choose subfaction as goff to make sure it’s probably a ghaz list… and you will see orks have a 56% win rate vs grey knights and 48% vs thousand sons.
Tyranids is an abysmal 27% but they are most factions hardest counter right now. Our second hardest goff counter right now is death guard at 29%.
I played into a custom imperial knights and a daemonic engine heavy iron warriors list with a block of termies with a ghaz led Goff list. He is tough to use but good lord is he good. He's such a good counter to all chaos termies both deathguard and vanilla. The flat 4 damage bypasses any -1 damage and the t7 4++ keeps him alive.
He also gives the great waagh which is great on vehicles particularly the wazboms and deffdread which both benefit from the 5++ (although only planes gets the bonus to shooting)
I actually took bring it down, get the good bits and green tide in both games.
Automatically Appended Next Post: List attached for interest
Automatically Appended Next Post: I won both games btw.
To clarify I'm not saying Ghaz is a steal but if you make use of all he brings (awesome combat, rerolls for goffs and great waaagh, even a 6+++ when big mak is nearby) he is worth the points.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I would say that hiding ghaz is a neccisity. To maximise his usefulness he needs to be protected so accepting no t1 charges is a given (even t2). Resist throwing him into any old combat. Against an opponent with termies he needs to just sit and wait (and then stomp upon their arrival)
My biggest gripe with Ghaz is that he's just so expensive. When you consider that Makari is being taken as well 90% of the time, he's 350 points and that's just too much.
Personally I feel that most of the time I'm better off taking a second Squigboss and using the spare points to plug gaps in my list.
If he were 300 points including Makari, then I'd be way more inclined to consider using him.
While I like all the bloodaxe stratagem shenanigans, I do feel like spending 300 points on Ghaz would be a better way to invest those "last" points of your list than getting more infantry and guns. He just brings something to the table the rest of codex can't easily provide.
Sadly, Ghaz locks you out of Extra Kunnin' which is pretty much mandatory for running bloodaxes.
My biggest gripe is that he doesnt have look out sir.
But since he needs to have look out sir due to wound reasons, i would definitely like to see him shave at least 50 points off.
To be fair, it doesnt matter that he throws a great waaagh. no competitive lists really needs both elements of the waaagh, and my own double kill rig list sure doesnt need an extra AP on the FEW shots they manage to get off.
Jidmah wrote: An extra squigboss costs CP though, Ghaz doesn't.
While I like all the bloodaxe stratagem shenanigans, I do feel like spending 300 points on Ghaz would be a better way to invest those "last" points of your list than getting more infantry and guns. He just brings something to the table the rest of codex can't easily provide.
Sadly, Ghaz locks you out of Extra Kunnin' which is pretty much mandatory for running bloodaxes.
This is a huge point. Same reason I take Zagstruck. I'd rather take more tooled up warbosses but even barebones they're an additional 2cp probably 4cp with relic and trait.
I start with 4cp and spend 3 cp to put the 2 wazbomms, a deffdread and a squad of grots into reserve. It means by t2 I have 4 cp if I went first or 5 if I went second. It leaves me 2 cp for auto pass moral if needed (although this isn't normally needed t1 so I end up having 2 cp earmarked t2 or 3 for fight on death) and 2cp for 3d6 charge from reserves for the deffdread.
But since he needs to have look out sir due to wound reasons, i would definitely like to see him shave at least 50 points off.
To be fair, it doesnt matter that he throws a great waaagh. no competitive lists really needs both elements of the waaagh, and my own double kill rig list sure doesnt need an extra AP on the FEW shots they manage to get off.
Extra ap on the two wazbomms is big especially on the teleporta guns. The bonus to dakka weapons is less huge but it brings the ap from -1 to -2 which is big against a few armies.
I was half thinking of putting a skorcha on two of my deffdreads to better avail of an additional ap.
Jidmah wrote: An extra squigboss costs CP though, Ghaz doesn't.
While I like all the bloodaxe stratagem shenanigans, I do feel like spending 300 points on Ghaz would be a better way to invest those "last" points of your list than getting more infantry and guns. He just brings something to the table the rest of codex can't easily provide. Sadly, Ghaz locks you out of Extra Kunnin' which is pretty much mandatory for running bloodaxes.
This is a huge point. Same reason I take Zagstruck. I'd rather take more tooled up warbosses but even barebones they're an additional 2cp probably 4cp with relic and trait.
I start with 4cp and spend 3 cp to put the 2 wazbomms, a deffdread and a squad of grots into reserve. It means by t2 I have 4 cp if I went first or 5 if I went second. It leaves me 2 cp for auto pass moral if needed (although this isn't normally needed t1 so I end up having 2 cp earmarked t2 or 3 for fight on death) and 2cp for 3d6 charge from reserves for the deffdread.
But since he needs to have look out sir due to wound reasons, i would definitely like to see him shave at least 50 points off.
To be fair, it doesnt matter that he throws a great waaagh. no competitive lists really needs both elements of the waaagh, and my own double kill rig list sure doesnt need an extra AP on the FEW shots they manage to get off.
Extra ap on the two wazbomms is big especially on the teleporta guns. The bonus to dakka weapons is less huge but it brings the ap from -1 to -2 which is big against a few armies.
I was half thinking of putting a skorcha on two of my deffdreads to better avail of an additional ap.
sure. but how many competitive lists run wazboms with ghaz? Not a ton.
In fact you could STILL get the extra AP if you just ran them as "Boom boys". So you didnt even need ghaz for that extra AP. you could get 2 extra AP that way, sure (ghaz and boom boys). but still, the Wazbom is great, but there arent THAT many lists that runs them with ghaz.
CaptainO wrote: Ref the great waaagh, by taking units that can benefit from the force multiplier that is ghaz, it increases the value of ghaz.
If you don't take units that benefit then ghazs value drops and as established he needs all the help he can get to be worth his points.
And to increase Ghaz value to the most you would probably go half vehicle shooting and half infantry charging (or something like it) and no list exists out there, competitively speaking thats near that idea. Running units that make him get more value doesnt make the army as whole more efficient.
Building an army around one type or the other seems to be more beneficial. Orks tends to be a skew army that focuses on one or the other; its rarely balanced around both melee and shooting. Like take the Rig lists, the only shooting most of them have comes from the Rigs.
All in all there seems to be a better benefit to focusing one one waaagh rather than both, which is why im saying that Ghaz giving the "Great waaagh" isnt necessarily a major bonus. Of course its not negative that he has it, but its not really that epic either. You might have a few shots going off the rigs getting an extra AP, or the wazboms, but thats really it. Or maybe a few Killa kanz.
Jidmah wrote: An extra squigboss costs CP though, Ghaz doesn't.
While I like all the bloodaxe stratagem shenanigans, I do feel like spending 300 points on Ghaz would be a better way to invest those "last" points of your list than getting more infantry and guns. He just brings something to the table the rest of codex can't easily provide.
Sadly, Ghaz locks you out of Extra Kunnin' which is pretty much mandatory for running bloodaxes.
See, I'd rather spend the CP and leave Ghaz at home. My list needs 4 Fast Attack slots, so my options are double detachment or a brigade if I can find another non-boss HQ and two more troops choices.
If I dropped my second Squigboss for Ghaz it would be fine in terms of HQ slots, but I would need a fourth slot and thus end up spending that CP anyway.
I technically need 4 Elites and 4 Heavy Support slots as well, but I could merge some Mek Guns to resolve the HS issue, and Elites is by far the best supported slot besides Troops so it isn't a real issue.
Jidmah wrote: An extra squigboss costs CP though, Ghaz doesn't.
While I like all the bloodaxe stratagem shenanigans, I do feel like spending 300 points on Ghaz would be a better way to invest those "last" points of your list than getting more infantry and guns. He just brings something to the table the rest of codex can't easily provide.
Sadly, Ghaz locks you out of Extra Kunnin' which is pretty much mandatory for running bloodaxes.
See, I'd rather spend the CP and leave Ghaz at home. My list needs 4 Fast Attack slots, so my options are double detachment or a brigade if I can find another non-boss HQ and two more troops choices.
If I dropped my second Squigboss for Ghaz it would be fine in terms of HQ slots, but I would need a fourth slot and thus end up spending that CP anyway.
I technically need 4 Elites and 4 Heavy Support slots as well, but I could merge some Mek Guns to resolve the HS issue, and Elites is by far the best supported slot besides Troops so it isn't a real issue.
well. you dont NEED to put ghaz in a supreme detatchment. he can sit in a regular battalion if that makes any difference to you.
The game was kinda over after turn 1 because apart from his 2 plagueburst crawlers he didn’t really have a lot of AT other than some plasma guns in his plague marines so turn 1 I was able to get my kommandos in to charge one knocking it down to the lowest bracket and the wazboms destroyed the other. The termies weapons are all str 7 dmg 2 so ramshackle gets crazy value against them. Hilariously what did the most damage to my army were his auto exploding rhinos which made me salty again that orks don’t have access to a strat like that. The game ended end of 4 with just a single plague marine alive. I believe I lost 4 dreads. Was a lot of fun playing the walker wall again. Hadn’t played it since like 5th Ed honestly.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ignore the shootas on the dreads, they all had max claws
Jidmah wrote: An extra squigboss costs CP though, Ghaz doesn't.
While I like all the bloodaxe stratagem shenanigans, I do feel like spending 300 points on Ghaz would be a better way to invest those "last" points of your list than getting more infantry and guns. He just brings something to the table the rest of codex can't easily provide.
Sadly, Ghaz locks you out of Extra Kunnin' which is pretty much mandatory for running bloodaxes.
See, I'd rather spend the CP and leave Ghaz at home. My list needs 4 Fast Attack slots, so my options are double detachment or a brigade if I can find another non-boss HQ and two more troops choices.
If I dropped my second Squigboss for Ghaz it would be fine in terms of HQ slots, but I would need a fourth slot and thus end up spending that CP anyway.
I technically need 4 Elites and 4 Heavy Support slots as well, but I could merge some Mek Guns to resolve the HS issue, and Elites is by far the best supported slot besides Troops so it isn't a real issue.
well. you dont NEED to put ghaz in a supreme detatchment. he can sit in a regular battalion if that makes any difference to you.
Typo on my part. It should say "I would need a fourth FA slot". But your point still stands.
Jidmah wrote: A still feel like a squigboss doesn't work well without relics and traits, while Ghaz does.
But if both are decent options though and the choice is a matter of personal playstyle, it still means that Ghaz is worth his points.
I think Ghaz could be slightly cheaper for what he currently offers, I think 275 would be more reasonable. However, I do agree that for the most part it is balanced for what players choose given the Nephilim changes. I do like the new dynamic that has been created since it usually skews to either a SC being basically all HQ's +1 or customizable HQ's being way better than the named characters so the new middle ground for named characters vs generic ones that has been created from the CP cut is actually nice to have in the meta atm.
The game was kinda over after turn 1 because apart from his 2 plagueburst crawlers he didn’t really have a lot of AT other than some plasma guns in his plague marines so turn 1 I was able to get my kommandos in to charge one knocking it down to the lowest bracket and the wazboms destroyed the other. The termies weapons are all str 7 dmg 2 so ramshackle gets crazy value against them. Hilariously what did the most damage to my army were his auto exploding rhinos which made me salty again that orks don’t have access to a strat like that. The game ended end of 4 with just a single plague marine alive. I believe I lost 4 dreads. Was a lot of fun playing the walker wall again. Hadn’t played it since like 5th Ed honestly.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ignore the shootas on the dreads, they all had max claws
I really like the list. I assume you spend 2 CP on popping the kff but what else do you use?
On average What kind of damage have you been getting out of your dreads? I'm running 3 and they're good as distraction carnifexes but they're a priority for my opponent so I don't have enough data on what I can expect our of them
The game was kinda over after turn 1 because apart from his 2 plagueburst crawlers he didn’t really have a lot of AT other than some plasma guns in his plague marines so turn 1 I was able to get my kommandos in to charge one knocking it down to the lowest bracket and the wazboms destroyed the other. The termies weapons are all str 7 dmg 2 so ramshackle gets crazy value against them. Hilariously what did the most damage to my army were his auto exploding rhinos which made me salty again that orks don’t have access to a strat like that. The game ended end of 4 with just a single plague marine alive. I believe I lost 4 dreads. Was a lot of fun playing the walker wall again. Hadn’t played it since like 5th Ed honestly.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ignore the shootas on the dreads, they all had max claws
I really like the list. I assume you spend 2 CP on popping the kff but what else do you use?
On average What kind of damage have you been getting out of your dreads? I'm running 3 and they're good as distraction carnifexes but they're a priority for my opponent so I don't have enough data on what I can expect our of them
ya usually popping the kff turn 1 then turn 2 waaagh. Next time I’ll probably give the mek the dead shiny shoota to help clear screens. I’ve debated giving every dread a scorcha for that too, but I like keeping them as cheap as possible.
Damage wise I’m fairly positive they have the highest dmg per point in our book if you can get them into cc. 8 attacks on waaagh, hitting on 2’s from banner, ap3/dmg3. It’s definitely a list where your just trying to throw enough big things at your opponent that they hopefully don’t have an answer for it so you either table or get tabled.
I think it would have a fairly favorable matchup against most armies except tau and nids. Tau could definitely be winnable but you’d be at a disadvantage. Nids if they bring double venom cannon harpies your just gonna get absolutely dunk on.
You could probably drop the Kommandos to units of five and drop the Wazbomms, and replace them with buggies with points you would have left. I think thats about 540 points off the top of my head, so let's say 2 Scrapjets, 3 KBBs and a Souped Up Snazzwagon to replace the units lost.
A fast moving first wave of buggies, then the Dreads come in turn two. Just overwhelm them and pray they don't have enough AT. It's 72 T7 wounds and I think 50 T6 wounds not including characters. I might honestly try it out for the lols.
Although a part of me wants to run 9 Dreads and a Kustom Stompa.
It sounds fun. But it also sounds like Ghaz really wanted to be a part of that, as thats a lot of shots from buggies etc. not really getting the speed waaagh part.
The game was kinda over after turn 1 because apart from his 2 plagueburst crawlers he didn’t really have a lot of AT other than some plasma guns in his plague marines so turn 1 I was able to get my kommandos in to charge one knocking it down to the lowest bracket and the wazboms destroyed the other. The termies weapons are all str 7 dmg 2 so ramshackle gets crazy value against them. Hilariously what did the most damage to my army were his auto exploding rhinos which made me salty again that orks don’t have access to a strat like that. The game ended end of 4 with just a single plague marine alive. I believe I lost 4 dreads. Was a lot of fun playing the walker wall again. Hadn’t played it since like 5th Ed honestly.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ignore the shootas on the dreads, they all had max claws
I really like the list. I assume you spend 2 CP on popping the kff but what else do you use?
On average What kind of damage have you been getting out of your dreads? I'm running 3 and they're good as distraction carnifexes but they're a priority for my opponent so I don't have enough data on what I can expect our of them
ya usually popping the kff turn 1 then turn 2 waaagh. Next time I’ll probably give the mek the dead shiny shoota to help clear screens. I’ve debated giving every dread a scorcha for that too, but I like keeping them as cheap as possible.
Damage wise I’m fairly positive they have the highest dmg per point in our book if you can get them into cc. 8 attacks on waaagh, hitting on 2’s from banner, ap3/dmg3. It’s definitely a list where your just trying to throw enough big things at your opponent that they hopefully don’t have an answer for it so you either table or get tabled.
I think it would have a fairly favorable matchup against most armies except tau and nids. Tau could definitely be winnable but you’d be at a disadvantage. Nids if they bring double venom cannon harpies your just gonna get absolutely dunk on.
If you take skorchas then it would definitely be working looking into Ghaz as ap-2 flamers are nothing to sneeze at.
You have a reasonable number of cp to play with, have you considered putting some dreads into reserve? 3 into reserve for 2cp... I've started putting 1 deffdread of mine into reserve (mostly as a result of having 9 Power level left over from putting a wazbomm into reserve) and then using ramming speed to "guarantee" getting a deffdread into combat. (i can also fit in a squad of grots into reserve as the total power level of 2*wazbomms + deffdread + grots comes to 28power level)
To be fair one of the reasons I put things into reserve as I've decided to move away from the kff. Ideally in a tournament there should be enough terrain to pretty reasonably hide whats left.
Afrodactyl wrote:You could probably drop the Kommandos to units of five and drop the Wazbomms, and replace them with buggies with points you would have left. I think thats about 540 points off the top of my head, so let's say 2 Scrapjets, 3 KBBs and a Souped Up Snazzwagon to replace the units lost.
A fast moving first wave of buggies, then the Dreads come in turn two. Just overwhelm them and pray they don't have enough AT. It's 72 T7 wounds and I think 50 T6 wounds not including characters. I might honestly try it out for the lols.
Although a part of me wants to run 9 Dreads and a Kustom Stompa.
I might split one of the kommando squads in 2x5 so they focus on obj, but I'd still definitely want at least one big squad to be a charging threat. Kommandos are the best unit in our army imo so anything not speedmob/freeboota is hard for me not to bring at least 15-20 haha. The only buggies I'd probably consider taking outside of freebootas would be some single dragstas for their 3+ bs kmm and ability to redeploy. You really need wazboms in this list though to try and alpha strike one of your opponents critical AT pieces.
Beardedragon wrote:It sounds fun. But it also sounds like Ghaz really wanted to be a part of that, as thats a lot of shots from buggies etc. not really getting the speed waaagh part.
But definitely an interesting and different list
right now it'd only be benefiting the wazboms, but ya if I had skorchas on all the dreads I'd definitely consider taking him, although I'd likely have to give up a wazbom to do it which I'm not entirely sure would be worth. I did run him in a game yesterday with my freebootas, which I think is the army build he works best in and he was 100% worth.
CaptainO wrote:If you take skorchas then it would definitely be working looking into Ghaz as ap-2 flamers are nothing to sneeze at.
You have a reasonable number of cp to play with, have you considered putting some dreads into reserve? 3 into reserve for 2cp... I've started putting 1 deffdread of mine into reserve (mostly as a result of having 9 Power level left over from putting a wazbomm into reserve) and then using ramming speed to "guarantee" getting a deffdread into combat. (i can also fit in a squad of grots into reserve as the total power level of 2*wazbomms + deffdread + grots comes to 28power level)
To be fair one of the reasons I put things into reserve as I've decided to move away from the kff. Ideally in a tournament there should be enough terrain to pretty reasonably hide whats left.
Totally agree dreads are probably the best use of the teleporta strat so depending on the matchup I would definitely use it on a squad.
The Bolter babes were too much for the orkz in game 1. But it was a wicked close one with the game hanging on 2 different CC's where my guys completely failed me. Had both CC's done average dmg or even slightly below average the game would have ended with an ork victory or at the least a Tie. In the end the SoB won 96 to 71.
Game 2: Thousand Sons Vs. Orkz. WIN
Friend came out with his TS army. His first ever GT and his first time piloting his TS army at an event. I went counter to my normal inclination and instead of bum rushing in screaming WAAAAGH my boyz hung back and played the objectives. For this one I grabbed Good Bitz, Da Biggest and Abhor the Witch. This one I sat my Beastboss on Squigosaur on the middle objective Marker and proceeded to force my opponent to come to me by simply capping 5pts of Good bitz and 2 of Da biggest each and every turn not to mention the primary. In the end my opponent had to push forward and exposed himself to my 2nd turn WAAAGH which left him crippled. The game finished with me dominating 99 to 14.
Game 3: Chaos Knights Vs. Orkz. WIN
To be honest, this was my first game against the new Chaos knights and it was scary as hell! The 1st turn didn't help. Turn 1 I went first and hid while moving objective grabbers forward, I was able to take some pot shots at his little guys and plinked some wounds but overall not much, on his turn....he 1 shot my Kill Rig. Turn 2 for me was a heavy repeat of the 1st turn, by the end of turn 2 I had a lot of points in primary and secondaries which forced my opponent to have to become more aggressive. Turn 3 I sprung into action, WAAAAGH! was called. Kommandos went running forward backed up by Squig riders, Trukk Boyz, characters and even my battlewagon loaded with flamers. I was able to da jump my forcibly disembarked Beastsnagga Boyz into the enemies back field and pulled off a successful 9' charge to steal an objective AND to 1 shot another little Knight. On his turn his knights were mostly destroyed or hurt badly except for 1 big boy and a pair of little ones so he stayed back and tried to hose me down....successfully popping the wagon and several other things. On my turn I was able to kill a big knight and reduced him down to a single model. Game finished 98 to 55
Game 4: Dark Eldar Vs. Orkz. WIN
Walked into a CC oriented Dark Eldar list. 1st turn was a repeat of my last game with me staying hidden as much as possible, capping mid field objectives with grots and posting up on an objective to start ticking off some Da Biggest secondaries. Opponents first turn he played it aggressive and went after mid field hard while popping my trukk with relative ease but thankfully doing little else since most of his army was CC oriented. Turn 2 the Orkz called WAAAAGH! and went pell mell into the enemies. My Killrig was able to pull off a rather beautifully done Frazzle attack which did some damage, but the all stars were the Trukk Boyz and Kommandos who between turns 2 and 3 were able to kill basically half his army. The Beastboss on squigosaur on turns 2-4 was able to move to the middle objective and punch multiple units and characters to death which guaranteed him full points on his secondary. By the end of turn 4 my opponent conceded since had nothing left to fight with, Game finished 98 to 34
Game 5: GSC Vs Orkz. WIN
This game was surprising for a host of reasons, for one it was the first time i ran into a GSC player since 7th edition, for another, it was yet another CC army against a CC army. Although my opponent brought multiple vehicles and a plethora of the bikes, he was mostly a CC army. After the game he told me flat out that he had expected me to run straight into his guns and therefore had hung back turn 1. On turn 1 I moved a bit but for the most part didn't attack anywhere except some ranged shots with my Mek gun and not much else. I was able to get 5pts on Bitz and had 3 more pts that would hit the next turn with Kommandos on another objective. Turn 2 my opponent realized I wouldn't be playing into his hands and in fact thanks to his secondary selection he would have to be aggressive and come after me. Turn 2 I hung back even more but did deploy forces into 4 corners while sending my Wagon into CC along with a unit of squigriders and in the middle I was able to move a unit of Kommandos and another unit of squig riders into CC against a character and a pair of rock crushers. Surprising my opponent I was able to kill his character with Squigbombs and then charge in and pop one of the vehicles. The other units didn't fair as well, they did some serious dmg to the opponent but I wasn't tracking on the Cult ability that he can bring back Bikes and ATVs for free. By the end of the game my opponent had resurrected close to 150-200pts of Bikes/ATVs. Turn 3 was the big turn. My opponent became highly aggressive since I would max out bitz that turn and be close to it with biggest. With that in mind he went hard into the left flank and midfield, even going as far as deep striking multiple units to go after my characters for assassinate. In the end I was able to weather the storm and thanks to some lucky rolling I only really lost a unit of squig riders and the Kill Rig, my Beastboss grabbed more points by murdering a unit while also being on an objective. Turn 3 for me was WAAAAGH and counter attack, by the end I had rolled up the remainder of his rock crushers and popped most of his other buggy style units, I had slaughtered one of the big units of Bikes and had killed off all the deep strikers while also leaving myself positioned yet again to max out Engage and Biggest. I also finished off Bitz.
Game ended with an Ork victory of 100 to 72.
Tournament ended with me going 4 and 1 but only dropping a total of 34pts out of 500.
Congrats dude! Sounds like you very nearly walked away with the overall dub. Seems your opponents weren’t expecting that much kunnin coming from an ork player.
Automatically Appended Next Post: What units do you think you would drop next time?
flaming tadpole wrote: Congrats dude! Sounds like you very nearly walked away with the overall dub. Seems your opponents weren’t expecting that much kunnin coming from an ork player.
Automatically Appended Next Post: What units do you think you would drop next time?
Absolutely not! LOL! The guy who won the event also won LVO a few years back, he went undefeated and I think he only dropped like 8pts, if i had run into him at the event I would have lost hands down! But yeah it was a great showing by the Greenskins, had another Ork player there who finished 9th overall with a similar list as mine.
As far as what I would drop/change...probably the battlewagon. It didn't do much the entire game, and not for lack of trying. It becomes a heavily armored transport and not really worth the price. With that in mind I would gladly drop it, the burnas and a unit of grots for a killrig and another unit of Beastsnagga boyz.
I will say that putting Tyres on the killrig was incredibly helpful in multiple games. Since its a character it can advance and charge on a waaagh turn and more than once I surprised my opponent by moving 13 + D6+2 and then charging 2D6 (once 3D6), and since its guns are mostly useless you don't really care about advancing, especially since the real weapon is Auto-hitting thanks to casting a spell which I never failed to do.
Afrodactyl wrote: Very well done Semper. Have you posted the list in here recently?
What would you say your best performing units were?
Best units...I really really hate to say this, were the grots. But, they were only good because they were shielded most of hte game by the immediate threat of Kommandos, Squighog riders and a trio of Nobz on smasha squigz who could run almost anywhere on the table at a moments notice and trade upwards with ease.
Memorable moment was the one time my Burna boyz were useful, against the Deldar character who gets a 2+ invuln until he fails it, i hosed him down with promethium (30+ hits) and then one shot him from failed 4+ saves
Smasha squigs were good, more than once I was able to charge them into a unit together as a group of 3 and inflict 6-8 Mortal wounds. Biggest downside to them is that ....they suck in CC. Its basically a beefed up normal nob with a Big choppa. So the damage isn't particularly spectacular and worse, the durability just isn't there. Honestly they could probably benefit from a buff or a small price cut.
Squighog riders were wonderful. For 25pts they put out 3, 1 and 2 attacks. During a WAAAGH its 4 attacks at S8Ap-2 2dmg, 2 attacks at S6 AP-2 2dmg and 1 attack at S3 -1AP 1dmg. And unless it was dead that turn or failed its cast, at least one of those units was running around with an extra squig attack (On that note that power needs a buff as well...3 extra attacks isn't worth much) Besides Melee, their threat range helped keep opponents honest, and in a few cases surprised them. Their shooting plinked a few wounds off vehicles (Spears hit on 4s) and they were just generally a nuisance. When an opponent wanted them dead however...they died
Kommandos were great all around. Getting a 3+ cover save and -1to hit because someone was shooting through terrain really made their durability go a long way. And in CC....forget about it, they trade up every single time. And of course the highlight for them was sniping characters with their Bomb Squigs.
I'll completely agree with you about the Smashas, they definitely either need to charge in only against things they can kill with the MWs, or charge in to tip some Squighogs or a Squigboss over that kill threshold. If I had my way I'd also knock them down to 55/60 points.
So the Burna Wagon was pretty lackluster for you? I've generally found mine to pull it's weight. Admittedly sometimes that is because it draws enough threat and gets shot to bits, bit I've yet to be properly disappointed with how it performed. Would you drop it entirely from your list in the future?
:EDIT:
Thinking out loud; any viability in tellyporting three all klaw dreads in a Goff rush list these days?
Afrodactyl wrote: Very well done Semper. Have you posted the list in here recently?
What would you say your best performing units were?
Best units...I really really hate to say this, were the grots. But, they were only good because they were shielded most of hte game by the immediate threat of Kommandos, Squighog riders and a trio of Nobz on smasha squigz who could run almost anywhere on the table at a moments notice and trade upwards with ease.
Memorable moment was the one time my Burna boyz were useful, against the Deldar character who gets a 2+ invuln until he fails it, i hosed him down with promethium (30+ hits) and then one shot him from failed 4+ saves
Smasha squigs were good, more than once I was able to charge them into a unit together as a group of 3 and inflict 6-8 Mortal wounds. Biggest downside to them is that ....they suck in CC. Its basically a beefed up normal nob with a Big choppa. So the damage isn't particularly spectacular and worse, the durability just isn't there. Honestly they could probably benefit from a buff or a small price cut.
Squighog riders were wonderful. For 25pts they put out 3, 1 and 2 attacks. During a WAAAGH its 4 attacks at S8Ap-2 2dmg, 2 attacks at S6 AP-2 2dmg and 1 attack at S3 -1AP 1dmg. And unless it was dead that turn or failed its cast, at least one of those units was running around with an extra squig attack (On that note that power needs a buff as well...3 extra attacks isn't worth much) Besides Melee, their threat range helped keep opponents honest, and in a few cases surprised them. Their shooting plinked a few wounds off vehicles (Spears hit on 4s) and they were just generally a nuisance. When an opponent wanted them dead however...they died
Kommandos were great all around. Getting a 3+ cover save and -1to hit because someone was shooting through terrain really made their durability go a long way. And in CC....forget about it, they trade up every single time. And of course the highlight for them was sniping characters with their Bomb Squigs.
Actually, you hampered yourself. Squigs put out s7 and S4 during waagh. Waagh bonus is worded differently than Goffs
Afrodactyl wrote: Very well done Semper. Have you posted the list in here recently?
What would you say your best performing units were?
Best units...I really really hate to say this, were the grots. But, they were only good because they were shielded most of hte game by the immediate threat of Kommandos, Squighog riders and a trio of Nobz on smasha squigz who could run almost anywhere on the table at a moments notice and trade upwards with ease.
Memorable moment was the one time my Burna boyz were useful, against the Deldar character who gets a 2+ invuln until he fails it, i hosed him down with promethium (30+ hits) and then one shot him from failed 4+ saves
Smasha squigs were good, more than once I was able to charge them into a unit together as a group of 3 and inflict 6-8 Mortal wounds. Biggest downside to them is that ....they suck in CC. Its basically a beefed up normal nob with a Big choppa. So the damage isn't particularly spectacular and worse, the durability just isn't there. Honestly they could probably benefit from a buff or a small price cut.
Squighog riders were wonderful. For 25pts they put out 3, 1 and 2 attacks. During a WAAAGH its 4 attacks at S8Ap-2 2dmg, 2 attacks at S6 AP-2 2dmg and 1 attack at S3 -1AP 1dmg. And unless it was dead that turn or failed its cast, at least one of those units was running around with an extra squig attack (On that note that power needs a buff as well...3 extra attacks isn't worth much) Besides Melee, their threat range helped keep opponents honest, and in a few cases surprised them. Their shooting plinked a few wounds off vehicles (Spears hit on 4s) and they were just generally a nuisance. When an opponent wanted them dead however...they died
Kommandos were great all around. Getting a 3+ cover save and -1to hit because someone was shooting through terrain really made their durability go a long way. And in CC....forget about it, they trade up every single time. And of course the highlight for them was sniping characters with their Bomb Squigs.
Actually, you hampered yourself. Squigs put out s7 and S4 during waagh. Waagh bonus is worded differently than Goffs
On a waaagh, a Goff squig rider charging would make 4 str 8 attacks. Then he would give 2 str 6 and 1 str 3. Fixed str on melee weapons does not go up, so the jaws wouldnt go to str 7 and grot wouldnt go to str 4.
Ironically enough the squigboss w mantle/ard as nails is harder to kill.
Mozgrod basically is just a Better invul and base save but the -1 wound and 5+ fnp is better.. the snakebite kultur transhuman ability doesn’t really help since they are already T7… and the +1 str of mozgrod special melee wpn is made up by the goff kultur… so really the only benefit is not needing wasting 2cp and the snakebite +1 to wound on charge kultur. I kinda wish mozgrod warlord trait was better or the transhuman wasn’t Str 8 capped.
gungo wrote: Ironically enough the squigboss w mantle/ard as nails is harder to kill.
Mozgrod basically is just a Better invul and base save but the -1 wound and 5+ fnp is better.. the snakebite kultur transhuman ability doesn’t really help since they are already T7… and the +1 str of mozgrod special melee wpn is made up by the goff kultur… so really the only benefit is not needing wasting 2cp and the snakebite +1 to wound on charge kultur. I kinda wish mozgrod warlord trait was better or the transhuman wasn’t Str 8 capped.
Mozgrod does also have flat 3 damage on his main weapon, which does make a difference against all the -1D or halving damage characters these days. But yeah, the custom generic Squigboss is better since they're not klan-locked to arguably one of the worst Klans in the book.
Having jigged my list about again, I can safely say that so far I'm really enjoying a unit of three all-klaw dreads and tellyporting them in.
They do a really nice amount of damage if at least two make their charges, especially in a Waaagh turn, and 24 T7 3+ wounds is nothing to sniff at in terms of durability.
I've not had many games with them, but so far they're performing really well. My whole army (sans Mek Gun) being on top of the opponent and all the objectives by the end of my second movement phase at the absolute latest is really nice.
Beardedragon wrote: Has anyone toyed with bringing Mozrog as an auxillary by paying 1CP and having him clanless in maybe a Goff army?
Because hes not inherently bad on his own.
He could maybe be worth it in scenarios where you explicitly need the D3 attacks, but otherwise a Ard as Nails/Beasthide Squigboss or BBK/Killchoppa Squigboss are better.
If aux detachments didnt remove klan abilities (which imo would immediately solve a LOT of LoW problems) i'd be fine with it being 2cp, as it lets you skirt by a handful of limitations.
But that loss of the kulture rules just bites way too hard.
Even Mozrog losing the +1 to wound when charging/Heroic part bites, as he is only S7 so thats a massive boon to not have anymore (which also affects his squig bites unlike waaaagh +1str)
Beardedragon wrote: Has anyone toyed with bringing Mozrog as an auxillary by paying 1CP and having him clanless in maybe a Goff army?
Because hes not inherently bad on his own.
He could maybe be worth it in scenarios where you explicitly need the D3 attacks, but otherwise a Ard as Nails/Beasthide Squigboss or BBK/Killchoppa Squigboss are better.
i actually thought about the beast boss on squig with relic/traits, AND mozrog.
Or something around that. But im not sure i would even do that now that hes 2 CP. thats really steep
There is a marginal benefit to mozgrod as your second beastboss on squig…
Mozgrod in a snakebite detachment is better then a second beastboss with BBK/killchoppa…
He’s easy to add as a patrol w 1x grots which we are likely taking anyway.
And a second veastboss on squig is going to cost you 3-4x cp total (detachment/warlord and/or relic)
But honestly I still prefer ghaz even if he costs a bit more…
Beardedragon wrote: But i cant add a snakebites detatchment if im playing Goffs as per the rules.
You can't CHOOSE Snakebites if you have Goffs.
Mozgrod has Snakebites built in, so it's not a selection.
And 'Orrible Gits for your Grots makes them no longer count as Goffs, so Mozgrod can get his Snakebite abilities.
Beardedragon wrote: But i cant add a snakebites detatchment if im playing Goffs as per the rules.
You can't CHOOSE Snakebites if you have Goffs.
Mozgrod has Snakebites built in, so it's not a selection. And 'Orrible Gits for your Grots makes them no longer count as Goffs, so Mozgrod can get his Snakebite abilities.
wait.. what? i dont think im following. You can have a goff detatchment and a snakebites detatchment with mozzie? When you make a detatchment, surely you have to pick a klan? Can a detatchment over all be klanless? So if i cant choose snakebites, because my over all klan is Goff (and im not using Ghaz who has specialist lads or is in a supreme detatchment) my klan would be goff?
orrible gitz isnt goffs, and mozzie isnt either. but the klan would be? is that still allowed?
Afrodactyl wrote: Having jigged my list about again, I can safely say that so far I'm really enjoying a unit of three all-klaw dreads and tellyporting them in.
They do a really nice amount of damage if at least two make their charges, especially in a Waaagh turn, and 24 T7 3+ wounds is nothing to sniff at in terms of durability.
I've not had many games with them, but so far they're performing really well. My whole army (sans Mek Gun) being on top of the opponent and all the objectives by the end of my second movement phase at the absolute latest is really nice.
Do you not find it incredibly hard to drop 3 large base within 6" of each other and with all 3 within 9" of the enemy. It may be better to just put all 3 into reserve as separate units. Its the same cost, they don't have to deploy near each other and you have the oppurtunity for shorter charges if you deploy touching your board edge.
I agree that a tooled up dread coming in with a 5++ and an extra attack and S12 for two turns is something for my opponent to be worried about.
Beardedragon wrote: But i cant add a snakebites detatchment if im playing Goffs as per the rules.
You can't CHOOSE Snakebites if you have Goffs.
Mozgrod has Snakebites built in, so it's not a selection.
And 'Orrible Gits for your Grots makes them no longer count as Goffs, so Mozgrod can get his Snakebite abilities.
wait.. what? i dont think im following. You can have a goff detatchment and a snakebites detatchment with mozzie? When you make a detatchment, surely you have to pick a klan? Can a detatchment over all be klanless? So if i cant choose snakebites, because my over all klan is Goff (and im not using Ghaz who has specialist lads or is in a supreme detatchment) my klan would be goff?
orrible gitz isnt goffs, and mozzie isnt either. but the klan would be? is that still allowed?
You don't chose a clan for a detachment, you the detachment's clan is decided by the keywords of the units in that detachment.
Nothing prevents you from having a goff and a snakebite detachment, the rule only limits how you replace keywords. Neither Mozrog nor 'orrible gits (or any of the other specialist mobs) have any keywords to replace.
To put simply what I was saying before…
Mozgrod and a grot unit in a patrol detachment is 2cp
Getting a second warlord in a patrol detachment is going to cost you 2cp anyway and even more cp for relic/warlord trait.
So the benefit to taking mozgrod is you get a second cheaper warlord that is almost as good as the ard as nails/mantle beastboss…
But I’m still kinda partial to ghaz (and makari).. but mozgrod does have a place competitively as your second beastboss on squig. I guess technically you can play hero hammer with all 3 but that eats a lot of points needed for your army.
My main issue with mozgrod though is snakebite transhuman is useless when your t7 and snakebite warlord trait is unreliable it should be 2+.
Afrodactyl wrote: Having jigged my list about again, I can safely say that so far I'm really enjoying a unit of three all-klaw dreads and tellyporting them in.
They do a really nice amount of damage if at least two make their charges, especially in a Waaagh turn, and 24 T7 3+ wounds is nothing to sniff at in terms of durability.
I've not had many games with them, but so far they're performing really well. My whole army (sans Mek Gun) being on top of the opponent and all the objectives by the end of my second movement phase at the absolute latest is really nice.
Do you not find it incredibly hard to drop 3 large base within 6" of each other and with all 3 within 9" of the enemy. It may be better to just put all 3 into reserve as separate units. Its the same cost, they don't have to deploy near each other and you have the oppurtunity for shorter charges if you deploy touching your board edge.
I agree that a tooled up dread coming in with a 5++ and an extra attack and S12 for two turns is something for my opponent to be worried about.
It can be a bit of a squeeze, but so far I've gotten away with it. It could definitely be a problem down the line though. The other deployment methods are very much on the cards though.
gungo wrote: To put simply what I was saying before…
Mozgrod and a grot unit in a patrol detachment is 2cp
Getting a second warlord in a patrol detachment is going to cost you 2cp anyway and even more cp for relic/warlord trait.
So the benefit to taking mozgrod is you get a second cheaper warlord that is almost as good as the ard as nails/mantle beastboss…
But I’m still kinda partial to ghaz (and makari).. but mozgrod does have a place competitively as your second beastboss on squig. I guess technically you can play hero hammer with all 3 but that eats a lot of points needed for your army.
My main issue with mozgrod though is snakebite transhuman is useless when your t7 and snakebite warlord trait is unreliable it should be 2+.
If we put mozzy into that detachment we still wouldn't be able to make that detachment a snakebite detachment right?(therefore getting the snakebites +1 to wound for a squig charging) as we can no longer mix and match keywords.
Are we sure that we can take one goff detachment and one "unaffiliated" detachment?
gungo wrote: To put simply what I was saying before…
Mozgrod and a grot unit in a patrol detachment is 2cp
Getting a second warlord in a patrol detachment is going to cost you 2cp anyway and even more cp for relic/warlord trait.
So the benefit to taking mozgrod is you get a second cheaper warlord that is almost as good as the ard as nails/mantle beastboss…
But I’m still kinda partial to ghaz (and makari).. but mozgrod does have a place competitively as your second beastboss on squig. I guess technically you can play hero hammer with all 3 but that eats a lot of points needed for your army.
My main issue with mozgrod though is snakebite transhuman is useless when your t7 and snakebite warlord trait is unreliable it should be 2+.
If we put mozzy into that detachment we still wouldn't be able to make that detachment a snakebite detachment right?(therefore getting the snakebites +1 to wound for a squig charging) as we can no longer mix and match keywords.
Are we sure that we can take one goff detachment and one "unaffiliated" detachment?
You don't DECLARE a detachment Goffs or Snakebites.
It is by virtue of the keywords of the units within it. So, a detachment of Mozzgrod (Snakebites) and some 'Orrible GIts Grots (doesn't stop anyone else from getting a clan) nets you the Snakebites Bonuses.
That is correct. After having looked it up, you definitely can have a patrol with mozzie and orrible gitz grots, and a completely different Goff detatchment full of.. well Goff dudes.
if you mean having multiple detachments of different klans breaks things, thats not in our rules.
Necrons dont lose dynasties when they do that, they lose protocols specifically.
Marines dont lose tactics when they do that, they lose Doctrines.
Orks dont have a 2nd layer of rules to get stripped and the Kulture rule itself doesnt have that clause either. Orks are probably the only one that both can and want to run multiple detachments with different kultures.
If you are playing a tournament pack, you still have to use the same keyword for all instances of <clan> though. Additional clans are only possible through named characters.
Jidmah wrote: If you are playing a tournament pack, you still have to use the same keyword for all instances of <clan> though. Additional clans are only possible through named characters.
This…
I mean mozgrod isn’t bad but he’s really only useful as a second beastboss.. for those people who don’t want to use ghaz; This is probably a better way to go. I don’t recommend the aux support detachment over a patrol.
With the new waggh mozgrod is str 8 on the charge with +1 to wound making him a better damage dealer than the killchoppa beastboss vs t7+ targets probably not more damage then the killchoppa/BBK goff beastboss.. but he’s also less CP and slightly harder to kill.
Ey up boyz, I have a question...
Which units can be Trukk Boyz? It says you need the Boyz, Warboss or Nob (singular) keyword, but I've seen Nobz (plural) just now on a TT battle report being given the specialist mob treatment.
Can Nobz and even Meganobz be Trukk Boyz?
OK thanks Beardedragon. Seems needlessly confusing. Ho-hum.
5 meganobz with kill saws in a trukk for a turn 1 waaargh it is then
Incidentally, I am using 5 ogryns with ripper guns and huge knives to 'count as' this unit at a GT, 'cos old skool blood axes. Shouldn't be a problem right? Base and model size is correct. They get the 2+ save from being double 'ard mercs, is my headcannon. This in a themed army with a lot of effort put in. Just hope I don't run into That Guy.
PaddyMick wrote: OK thanks Beardedragon. Seems needlessly confusing. Ho-hum.
5 meganobz with kill saws in a trukk for a turn 1 waaargh it is then
Incidentally, I am using 5 ogryns with ripper guns and huge knives to 'count as' this unit at a GT, 'cos old skool blood axes. Shouldn't be a problem right? Base and model size is correct. They get the 2+ save from being double 'ard mercs, is my headcannon. This in a themed army with a lot of effort put in. Just hope I don't run into That Guy.
i guess that depends. Does your ogryns look like orks? Because usually one just sends a picture to the TO before the tournament and ask if ones kit bashes/proxies are okay. if he says "Go for it" no player can complain. If you dont do that before hand you are kind of gambling a bit.
I have minor kit bashes that i dont send pictures of to TOs because it very closely resembles the actual unit, like my kit bashed big mek with KFF, one of my Wazboms and my Kill rig towed by a carnifex. But i also have a very different Grot Mega tank that i would check in with the TO before hand.
No they look nothing like Meganobz, it's just the only datasheet that kinda fits. If I email the TO I reckon his response in so many words might be 'well that army is cool, nice idea, but I feel like I have to say no, to cover myself, hope you understand'. So it's a gamble, but worst that can happen is I can't field the unit and play 175 pts down.
Carnifex towing a kill rig sounds awesome mate! I actually went and checked your gallery but couldn't see it. Please upload a pic I'm planning on a showcase thead when I get can get some decent photos. Got some GSC and admech vehicles orked up, plus a ton of ancient lead.
PaddyMick wrote: No they look nothing like Meganobz, it's just the only datasheet that kinda fits. If I email the TO I reckon his response in so many words might be 'well that army is cool, nice idea, but I feel like I have to say no, to cover myself, hope you understand'. So it's a gamble, but worst that can happen is I can't field the unit and play 175 pts down.
Carnifex towing a kill rig sounds awesome mate! I actually went and checked your gallery but couldn't see it. Please upload a pic I'm planning on a showcase thead when I get can get some decent photos. Got some GSC and admech vehicles orked up, plus a ton of ancient lead.
its not a gamble asking the TO before hand. Its a gamble to NOT ask the TO before hand. especially if your models look nothing like orks at all. The TO has the right to say that you cant paticipate with models that dont get accepted by the TO. effectively if your entire army is made that way, you could essentially be told you cant play.
And yea, my gallery hasnt been updated in at least a year. And my phone takes absolute trash pictures but sure i can upload it later
But really. Dont show up to a GT with orks that dont look like orks without checking the TO. In worst case scenario you wont be able to play with the models not accepted by the TO. and that would really suck. I have never not been accepted by the TO, but i also dont have anything that looks radically different. I have 2 Grot mega tanks that i bought from Gear Gutz Mek Shop, but they still resemble Grot mega tanks and even have grots riding them. But even so, i still checked in with my TO before hand.
But im curious. You have orks that dont look like orks? Im not sure how that works
PaddyMick wrote: No they look nothing like Meganobz, it's just the only datasheet that kinda fits. If I email the TO I reckon his response in so many words might be 'well that army is cool, nice idea, but I feel like I have to say no, to cover myself, hope you understand'. So it's a gamble, but worst that can happen is I can't field the unit and play 175 pts down.
So you're willing to risk discovering on the spot that you have to play 175 pts down rather than find out ahead of time one way or another.
Forgive me for being blunt, but that's a stupid approach.
Well ok, maybe I'm thinking about it wrong. I just didn't want to put the TO in the position where he has to say no, when 99% of opponents are gonna say it's fine. The models adhere to the rule of cool (imho). TO would rightly err on the side of caution. By the way i'm willing to change my mind, it's why i'm asking - and sorry for derailing. Basic tactics question - i've had one game with orks since 2nd ed - is there ever a good situation NOT to T1 waaaargh?
Edit: having given it some thought, counting ogryns as meganobz probably ain't the best idea, and i thought it was my only option to play with the models... until I realised they are a perfect fit for Flash Gitz (mercenaries with s5 t5, big base, big guns). Reckon these aint the most competative unit - the bs4+ is nice but the guns being heavy and only 24'' range is a pain; shoot twice is too expensive for 5 models most of the time. Question on the ammo runt - the whole unit re-rolls hits right? it say 'bearer' and the unit buys it, not an individual model. Any other buffs I could give them?
Afrodactyl wrote: I'll completely agree with you about the Smashas, they definitely either need to charge in only against things they can kill with the MWs, or charge in to tip some Squighogs or a Squigboss over that kill threshold. If I had my way I'd also knock them down to 55/60 points.
So the Burna Wagon was pretty lackluster for you? I've generally found mine to pull it's weight. Admittedly sometimes that is because it draws enough threat and gets shot to bits, bit I've yet to be properly disappointed with how it performed. Would you drop it entirely from your list in the future?
:EDIT:
Thinking out loud; any viability in tellyporting three all klaw dreads in a Goff rush list these days?
So with Smasha Squigs, I think a generic 5+ invuln would help their durability and then just give them a 5pt price cut AND the option of taking a Powerklaw for 5pts, bringing them back to where they are right now. They just don't dish out enough dmg and realistically they hand your opponent an easy secondary.
Burna Wagon...Its just bad. The wagon itself is over priced since it literally does NOTHING. The wagon itself needs some kind of offensive power because 6 attacks isn't enough. The Burna's inside were lackluster at best. I wanted to try them as Zzapkrumpaz so I paid extra points to make them do Mortal wounds on 6s to wound. Here is the problem though, I had 10 of them (2 spanners and 8 Burnas) They only get 2 attacks, 3 on a WAAAGH. Even with Exploding 6s and a weirdboy bumping them to 4 attacks each (Warpath if works out to 40 attacks, 33 hits, and here is the problem, 5.5 Mortal wounds. Sounds great right? well that is under optimal circumstances and realistically it doesn't happen often. Not to mention I ran into multiple games where I was -1 to hit and multiple games where buffing with warpath wasn't possible. And once they disembark...they are dead the next turn in every single game.
Like I said, I think I would rather drop the burnas and the Wagon for another Killrig and some Beastsnagga boyz. The added threat of a well places Frazzle and auto-hitting D3 lascannon is just more of a thread in my opinion, yeah you lose anti-infantry but....You don't need it.
Beastboss on Squig (mantle+Ard as Nails) or Mozrog?
Thanks!
That is how I ran my Beastboss in the GT. He is just ridiculously durable for the price, and sitting him on an objective scoring 2VP a turn is just great especially since you can always run him forward to kill a squad or dmg a vehicle and snag another 2VP. I rarely had a game where I was missing VPs by having him be a cavalry TANK! Mozrog on the other hand...Kulture locked and realistically not worth the price.
Beardedragon wrote: Has anyone toyed with bringing Mozrog as an auxillary by paying 1CP and having him clanless in maybe a Goff army?
Because hes not inherently bad on his own.
As I said....not worth it. He doesn't get any benefits really from being snakebite. GW really needs to rethink the whole S7 Transhuman for Orkz because its Fething useless in 90% of the games.
I’d say s8 and below would be a useful transhuman ability across the board…
There is very few str9+ weapons and the benefit to str9+ is negligible enough that capping transhuman abilities to str8 and below would give str9+ wpns a small niche but for orks in general there is a lot of str8 wpns in game that makes the ork toughness 5-7 units actually gain a transhuman benefit if it was capped at str8 and below.
That would bump it to usable for sure, as really the only S6/7 attacks i come across are either melee focused but not hyper-elitist units or the random medium gun that a lot of monsters/vehicles have, but isnt the main reason you bring the thing.
Autocannons are pretty much taboo these days, nobody runs them. They either run the next tier lower which is the S5 4-6 shot gun, or pay premium for lascannons/plasma.
All my marine friends were freaking out when they first found out about snakebites and every single one of them i counted 10-15 shots across a 2000k army that actually gave a crap. Either you already didnt wound me very well, or exceeded S7.
I'd be fine with it being so situational if it wasnt the "main perk" of being a snakebite. If that other perk wasnt locked to Squig units i dont think we'd be saying snakebite sucks lol
Thats not the only thing wrong with snakebites. The fact that Rigs dont have squig keyword is another issue.
Hell even from a marketing point of view, it makes no sense that the Rigs gain literally zero benefits from being in a snakebites detatchment, when beasts nagga models were marketed as being good with snakebites. And then you have the Rigs, who gain no +1 to wound for lack of squig keyword (despite clearly being towed by a squig) and having toughness 8 means the soft transhuman does nothing at all.
Even changing that to str 8 and below instead would also have minimal meaning to a rig. though ofc it would have a much better impact for the the rest of the army.
Yeah i was positive the killrig would get faqd to have the squig keyword but welp here we are no such faq yet.
Other than blood angels with 2x str weapons i cant even think of any S8 attacks with +1 the wound that S8 or less transhuman would affect either. Theres probably various spells or something but not that im able to think of off hand.
But yeah youre right, rigs literally gain nothing from snakebite. Thats funny...
And of course, i believe the math came out to Goffs being almost exactly as awesome for squig mounted gits as snakebites, and of course goff works on everything with a fist, even the driver of a lowly Trukk lol
Sadly enough, the Snakebitez transhuman ability would really benefit grots the most if they were able to actually use klan traits. It is kinda damning that GW somehow gave Snakebitez a rule that is arguably worse than the 6+ FNP that they had before given how situational the baby transhuman they have is.
Snakebitez really should have been something like +1T for Infantry, Bikerz and Squig Units, with the added change that the +1 to wound also applied to Kill Rigs. That or something like no rerolls to wounds similar to how Iron Warriors or LoV are.
I think GW struggles on this part because they usually fall back on invulns or armour saves to make other subfactions tougher, but since Orks generally lack good armour and invulns are largely limited to characters or the KFF (and now WAAAGH!), GW kinda just throws their hands up and gives us something that doesn't actually reflect Snakebitez being tough as old boots.
Beardedragon wrote: Thats not the only thing wrong with snakebites. The fact that Rigs dont have squig keyword is another issue.
Hell even from a marketing point of view, it makes no sense that the Rigs gain literally zero benefits from being in a snakebites detatchment, when beasts nagga models were marketed as being good with snakebites. And then you have the Rigs, who gain no +1 to wound for lack of squig keyword (despite clearly being towed by a squig) and having toughness 8 means the soft transhuman does nothing at all.
Even changing that to str 8 and below instead would also have minimal meaning to a rig. though ofc it would have a much better impact for the the rest of the army.
Rigs already have ramshackle so the transhuman snakebite ability is kinda overkill. It should have the squig keyword though… don’t really care if those vehicles gain a benefit from transhuman they are already strong.
Vineheart01 wrote: That would bump it to usable for sure, as really the only S6/7 attacks i come across are either melee focused but not hyper-elitist units or the random medium gun that a lot of monsters/vehicles have, but isnt the main reason you bring the thing.
Autocannons are pretty much taboo these days, nobody runs them. They either run the next tier lower which is the S5 4-6 shot gun, or pay premium for lascannons/plasma.
All my marine friends were freaking out when they first found out about snakebites and every single one of them i counted 10-15 shots across a 2000k army that actually gave a crap. Either you already didnt wound me very well, or exceeded S7.
I'd be fine with it being so situational if it wasnt the "main perk" of being a snakebite. If that other perk wasnt locked to Squig units i dont think we'd be saying snakebite sucks lol
I really REALLY want someone to find the video of the Youtuber losing his mind over Mozrod but I think he deleted the video because of how utterly silly he looked.
As far as Snakebites in general go...i'll chalk that one up as another accurate prediction I made when the codex leaked. The biggest complains I saw from players was Transhuman snakebites, T5 Boyz and Mozrog. I predicted all 3 would be utter trash tier and was told in no uncertain terms I was dead wrong by a host of competitive players of other factions. Mozrog panned out to be useless for a couple reasons. For starters, his Warlord trait is god awful. a 50/50 to come back with D3 wounds just isn't worth it. Secondly, he is kulture locked as snakebites which....suck. Transhuman on an army sounds awesome but I kept pointing out that it was only on S7 and below weapons and these Marine players couldn't wrap their heads around the fact that not everyone is T4 and therefore don't get much benefit from this. I mean hell, Squigriders only get a benefit from S7 weapons, and gaining 25% durability vs S7 just isn't a good kulture. Boyz...well, Jid and I were pointing out that they were DoA as soon as morale got switched but we were told we were wrong for a few months until it worked out that lists were usually only taking 1 unit as a tax at most.
Grimskul wrote: Sadly enough, the Snakebitez transhuman ability would really benefit grots the most if they were able to actually use klan traits. It is kinda damning that GW somehow gave Snakebitez a rule that is arguably worse than the 6+ FNP that they had before given how situational the baby transhuman they have is.
Snakebitez really should have been something like +1T for Infantry, Bikerz and Squig Units, with the added change that the +1 to wound also applied to Kill Rigs. That or something like no rerolls to wounds similar to how Iron Warriors or LoV are.
I think GW struggles on this part because they usually fall back on invulns or armour saves to make other subfactions tougher, but since Orks generally lack good armour and invulns are largely limited to characters or the KFF (and now WAAAGH!), GW kinda just throws their hands up and gives us something that doesn't actually reflect Snakebitez being tough as old boots.
GW struggles to write ork rules because the guys they have doing it are clearly Marine Players or Marine rules writers first because a lot of the stuff they give us sounds great if you were a Marine, but for an ork its trash.
And lets not forget how they just kinda gave up with the Evil Sunz klan trait as well.
Advance and gain no -1 to hit with assault weapons? Lol, what assault weapons? We have like 3 left, and thats the kustom mega blastas, tellyport blasta from big meks and dragsta shock rifles.
And even then they still removed the +1 to charge. They copy pasted and a klan trait from 8th edition and decided to nerf it by removing the +1 to charge, despite removing all the assault weapons making the trait largely useless in general.. Who even accepted this klan in 9th edition the way its implemented.
Not a single person has ever picked this klan for its trait, its only ever picked for its relics, warlord traits and stratagems.
Beardedragon wrote: And even then they still removed the +1 to charge. They copy pasted and a klan trait from 8th edition and decided to nerf it by removing the +1 to charge, despite removing all the assault weapons making the trait largely useless in general.. Who even accepted this klan in 9th edition the way its implemented.
Some GW rules writer who took a few minutes in between sessions of masturbating to bolter porn to sketch out an ork codex.
They need an ork advocate on their team. More importantly, they need someone to rein in the idiots who wrote the Votann and Tyranids codexes.
SemperMortis wrote: I really REALLY want someone to find the video of the Youtuber losing his mind over Mozrod but I think he deleted the video because of how utterly silly he looked.
Found the link in one of my chat logs - it was literally called "THIS IS THE MOST BROKEN UNIT EVER". It's now set to private and therefore no longer available. What a panzee.
SemperMortis wrote: I really REALLY want someone to find the video of the Youtuber losing his mind over Mozrod but I think he deleted the video because of how utterly silly he looked.
Found the link in one of my chat logs - it was literally called "THIS IS THE MOST BROKEN UNIT EVER". It's now set to private and therefore no longer available. What a panzee.
Guessing that was Tabletop Guard, i dont see a video on his channel anymore about Mozrog and i know for a fact he did have a super rant video on this guy. Pretty sure that was the point a lot of people stopped watching him, dont think he uploads anymore either.
SemperMortis wrote: I really REALLY want someone to find the video of the Youtuber losing his mind over Mozrod but I think he deleted the video because of how utterly silly he looked.
Found the link in one of my chat logs - it was literally called "THIS IS THE MOST BROKEN UNIT EVER". It's now set to private and therefore no longer available. What a panzee.
That video was priceless and I'm genuinely upset I can't watch it any more
In other news, I might try out some Killsaw Manz for a game or two. They're kinda expensive and the d3 damage can sometimes go against you, but the extra attack and pip of AP is looking very appealing.
Vineheart01 wrote: Guessing that was Tabletop Guard, i dont see a video on his channel anymore about Mozrog and i know for a fact he did have a super rant video on this guy. Pretty sure that was the point a lot of people stopped watching him, dont think he uploads anymore either.
It was. Sadly none of the internet archive services found his idiotic rant worth preserving, so it's actually gone from the internet.
SemperMortis wrote: I really REALLY want someone to find the video of the Youtuber losing his mind over Mozrod but I think he deleted the video because of how utterly silly he looked.
Found the link in one of my chat logs - it was literally called "THIS IS THE MOST BROKEN UNIT EVER". It's now set to private and therefore no longer available. What a panzee.
That video was priceless and I'm genuinely upset I can't watch it any more
In other news, I might try out some Killsaw Manz for a game or two. They're kinda expensive and the d3 damage can sometimes go against you, but the extra attack and pip of AP is looking very appealing.
Anyone tried killsaws recently?
Yeah...most people screaming that the sky is falling for Ork units baffle me, especially because they're almost exclusively from non-Ork players talking out their rears. Stuff like the Souped Up Shokk Attack Gun wiping out a unit in a single volley (and conveniently forgetting the turns where it rolled doubled 1's for strength and 3 shots...) or saying the Stompa was super strong from guys like Reece...and they all quietly shuffle away and pretend they ever said such nonsense when tournie results roll around and they're proven horribly wrong.
I'd say that double killsaw manz are pretty good, particularly as trukkboyz or Goffs. I think ideally they're best against armies that have AoC or some equivalent of it, because the AP-4 makes a big difference to ensure that enemies at least have a 5+ or worse save compared to regular klaws and the extra attack really helps when you combo it with a WAAAGH! or Warpath. I feel you need to take a unit of 4-5 min though to ensure enough attacks get through. Always keep in mind if you have 2CP in your back pocket to use Hit Em Harder, since it gives you a potential chance for 3-4 damage from the D3+1 damage which helps against all the -1D everywhere. They're even better if you can have a Trukkboy warboss with them when they deploy so you can maximize the amount of hits with their +1 to hit aura.
I mean orks are okay right now the codex is just kinda trash but ranking wise goff pressure is arguably top 10 army. the good news is we aren’t strong enough to see a nerf in the next dataslate
I still wish kustom jobs were free I want to see more then the handful of units that make ork codex viable right now..
i will admit, INITIALLY i thought Mozrog was a bit much.
And perhaps he was on release but not as much as people thought he was. The very next codex kinda proved hes not the mos offensive named character by a long shot.
Beardedragon wrote: The only reason i see orks being super good on release was because not a lot else had gotten their codexes yet.
Id go as far as to say that if we could still slam down 9 scrapjets now we still wouldnt be the best faction out there.
ya it’s be nice if they reversed that rule. The points increase along with the general power creep is enough to keep it from being the threat it was before.
SemperMortis wrote: I really REALLY want someone to find the video of the Youtuber losing his mind over Mozrod but I think he deleted the video because of how utterly silly he looked.
Found the link in one of my chat logs - it was literally called "THIS IS THE MOST BROKEN UNIT EVER". It's now set to private and therefore no longer available. What a panzee.
That video was priceless and I'm genuinely upset I can't watch it any more
In other news, I might try out some Killsaw Manz for a game or two. They're kinda expensive and the d3 damage can sometimes go against you, but the extra attack and pip of AP is looking very appealing.
Anyone tried killsaws recently?
Yeah...most people screaming that the sky is falling for Ork units baffle me, especially because they're almost exclusively from non-Ork players talking out their rears. Stuff like the Souped Up Shokk Attack Gun wiping out a unit in a single volley (and conveniently forgetting the turns where it rolled doubled 1's for strength and 3 shots...) or saying the Stompa was super strong from guys like Reece...and they all quietly shuffle away and pretend they ever said such nonsense when tournie results roll around and they're proven horribly wrong.
I'd say that double killsaw manz are pretty good, particularly as trukkboyz or Goffs. I think ideally they're best against armies that have AoC or some equivalent of it, because the AP-4 makes a big difference to ensure that enemies at least have a 5+ or worse save compared to regular klaws and the extra attack really helps when you combo it with a WAAAGH! or Warpath. I feel you need to take a unit of 4-5 min though to ensure enough attacks get through. Always keep in mind if you have 2CP in your back pocket to use Hit Em Harder, since it gives you a potential chance for 3-4 damage from the D3+1 damage which helps against all the -1D everywhere. They're even better if you can have a Trukkboy warboss with them when they deploy so you can maximize the amount of hits with their +1 to hit aura.
i was in a doubles tourney last weekend with a bud who is a very experienced GT player, consistently x-1. hes never run orks himself and saw it as a chance to do so. his list - zagstruk, tarpit squigboss, 17 deffkoptas, 18 squighogs, 2 mega dreads and 2x10 grots. our first match we cleaned up against ork/bieltan when we were helping them with their rules throughout the game. match 2 is against Tau/DG - literal ork kryptonite. hes losing his mind that 7 blightlord termies with -1 to be hit and -1 dmg are taking forever to clear and minced down 12 squigs on their own. no duh, half output against a 2+ save hurts.
game 3 really breaks him - hey can these 6 deffkoptas kill a carnivore? i dunno, maybe. tried explaining to him that orks either bounce or you feel like you are cheating. he rolled hot on the number of shots, rolls lower on the number of hits, and low on the wounds, does zero damage. i'm laughing my ass off and hes flabbergasted.
oh and zagstruk - boss sits on our home objective 95% of the time. solid 110pt investment that.
cue the james franco First Time? meme to sum up the day. none of what happened surprised me in the least, found it entertaining as all get out.
proves that some people are just not ork players.
1-2 overall.
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Beardedragon wrote: The only reason i see orks being super good on release was because not a lot else had gotten their codexes yet.
Id go as far as to say that if we could still slam down 9 scrapjets now we still wouldnt be the best faction out there.
you could take 4 planes, 6 squigbuggies, 6 megatrakks and some objective monkeys. planes and the rukkatrukks kick off freebooterz, and then the hardest challenge is deciding how much to leave alive for next turn to have an easy time tabling someone. dakkajets for example - during speed waagh 42 shots, hitting on 4s, S6 ap2 1dmg. thats 15 wounds into a T3 4+ body, 9 in to MEQ. remember theres no AoC and admech/drukhari are the boogeymen of the day. megatrakks? 3d3+1 S8 ap3 3d shots hitting on 4s plus 22 S5 ap1 1dmg shots. the sheer volume of fire suddenly hitting on 4s was oppressive to the highest degree.
and then indirect was nerfed, planes were restricted to 2, and buggies limited to 1 unit.
flaming tadpole wrote: I made a list I’m gonna use whenever I play against LOV. The point of the list is to either get tabled (the more likely) or table by end of turn 2.
flaming tadpole wrote: I made a list I’m gonna use whenever I play against LOV. The point of the list is to either get tabled (the more likely) or table by end of turn 2.
The goal is to pop waaagh turn 1 and charge as much of the army that can fit into combat as possible, then most likely cry when I get my ass kicked.
Unfortunately rule of three says you can't take five units of Kommandos. Three units of three Squighogs with a bomb squig each gives you some fast moving units to help out with screening and objectives turn one and then help with the punching turn two.
I would definitely take five units of Kommandos if I were allowed though.
SemperMortis wrote: I really REALLY want someone to find the video of the Youtuber losing his mind over Mozrod but I think he deleted the video because of how utterly silly he looked.
Found the link in one of my chat logs - it was literally called "THIS IS THE MOST BROKEN UNIT EVER". It's now set to private and therefore no longer available. What a panzee.
That video was priceless and I'm genuinely upset I can't watch it any more
In other news, I might try out some Killsaw Manz for a game or two. They're kinda expensive and the d3 damage can sometimes go against you, but the extra attack and pip of AP is looking very appealing.
Anyone tried killsaws recently?
Generally speaking...scratch that, every single time someone screams OP ORKZ! They inevitably look silly. The best unit in our codex was arguably Kommandos and they were only ever a CC threat and objective capper unit. Reece saying silly things about stompas and Killakanz, Half the internet screaming T5, Transfungus orkz and Mozrog, hell I've run the math on un-nerfed Squigbuggies more times than I can remember, they were never as good as people made them out to be, they were a good utility unit but that was about it.
As far as killsaw manz...i love the model, ive never liked the results. I inevitably run into -1dmg or fights last, or they just get popped out of their transport turn 1. Last time I ran them was 2 GT's ago and it went poorly. They ran into custodes and Nidz the entire time and bounced off all their targets for the most part, even when I used Hittem harder it didn't do enough dmg to justify their existence. For their price they should have an inbuilt 5++ or should get +1 attacks for being "Mega" nobz rather than just nobz in fancy armor.
Beardedragon wrote: The only reason i see orks being super good on release was because not a lot else had gotten their codexes yet.
Id go as far as to say that if we could still slam down 9 scrapjets now we still wouldnt be the best faction out there.
Absolutely bearded, and even at our height of power we were still falling dreadfully behind Ad-Mech and Drukhari, but when the nerf bat came around it hit us the hardest for some reason. ...actually I know the reason, it was because orkz tabled a top Drukhari player at the top table in a single tournament. Even though the Drukhari player brought almost nothing capable of dealing with a buggy spam and bum rushed forward turn 1 and failed all his charges. Didn't matter, clearly that is proof enough that Orkz needed more nerfs than the top 2 factions currently dominating the meta.
Freeboota Buggies was a strong list, but that was mostly down to janky flyer rules rather than buggies just being broken.
That particular DE stomp could have realistically happened with any other faction that can run a similar list, but it happened to be Orks on the day.
The flyer nerf was probably necessary, the buggy nerf definitely not. But hey ho, this is another chapter in the Ork history books.
Anyone tried anything new lately? Any new builds or underused units? I'm still trying to find a way of making Deff Dreads viable without devoting the entire list to taking nine of them
flaming tadpole wrote: I made a list I’m gonna use whenever I play against LOV. The point of the list is to either get tabled (the more likely) or table by end of turn 2.
The goal is to pop waaagh turn 1 and charge as much of the army that can fit into combat as possible, then most likely cry when I get my ass kicked.
Does Nephlim allow you to ignore the rule of 3? Or am I misreading your list?
I ask because it looks like you've got 5 units of kommandos.
nah that was my bad. I wasn't in my right mind last night lol. So I drop 2 squads and max out all 3 leaves me with 85 pts to play with. Could do a weirdboy w/ fist to give to the bikerboss missile for the extra oonga boonga. Probably would be smarter to do a small stormboyz/squigboys squad or maybe just a solo dread.
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Afrodactyl wrote: Freeboota Buggies was a strong list, but that was mostly down to janky flyer rules rather than buggies just being broken.
That particular DE stomp could have realistically happened with any other faction that can run a similar list, but it happened to be Orks on the day.
The flyer nerf was probably necessary, the buggy nerf definitely not. But hey ho, this is another chapter in the Ork history books.
Anyone tried anything new lately? Any new builds or underused units? I'm still trying to find a way of making Deff Dreads viable without devoting the entire list to taking nine of them
I was thinking of trying a 18 killa kan list with scorchas + ghaz. Probably will lose half of them to morale but could be fun for a turn or two.
im paranoid to run kanz larger than 3 because a squad of 3 tends to get looked over for awhile and usually can survive morale.
Big blob of 6 is gonna get nuked and practically auto-fail morale.
Really wish they'd revisit morale again. I miss the old days of "they run away" if you fail, not destroyed.
Running away took more time and was pretty much ignored by every army..
I actually wish more armies didn’t completely ignore morale and just ignored or reduced attrition. At best we should have abilities like breaking eads or commissar killing a single model and ending morale on a unit. Maybe some attrition modifiers and something like marines having a reroll morale aura on hq units.
But i agree orks need breakin eads to be free and killakans need to either be cheaper or Gretchin units need to have the same morale bonuses as orks but with lower leadership.
Vineheart01 wrote: im paranoid to run kanz larger than 3 because a squad of 3 tends to get looked over for awhile and usually can survive morale. Big blob of 6 is gonna get nuked and practically auto-fail morale.
Really wish they'd revisit morale again. I miss the old days of "they run away" if you fail, not destroyed.
Previous morale was pretty junk for Orks too unfortunately. Sweeping advance meant we often rarely, if ever caught most of our opponents after beating them in combat since our initiative was so poor, and we were heavily reliant on Mob Rule (which was great in 5th, terrible from 6th-7th ed) to help mitigate the amount of wounds we suffered in combat or shooting. And when we lost combat, we usually lost the whole unit to sweeping advances. The biggest problem is that GW really can't help themselves when it comes to haves and haves nots for morale. Armies like SM or Tyranids always get like 5 different rules letting them be exceptions or functionally ignore morale (SM in previous editions they couldn't be sweeping advanced, which was huge, and Tyranids got Fearless from Synapse) or they started spamming fearless and stubborn units everywhere, making killing them all but usually the only way to remove threats off the board.
Instead of using a fleeing or attrition loss mechanic, it would be much better if morale was just based on debuffs with various levels of how "broken" a squad is rather than the "feelsbad" of having your unit be decimated due to an unlucky dice roll. It would also make up for the fact that a significant amount of 40k factions have iconic units that are "fearless" or wouldn't retreat or fall back under normal circumstances, and this would be a good way of ensuring it doesn't snowball back to the divide of "units that ignore morale and units that don't". Assuming GW followed this framework of making it feel meaningful from both sides actually interacting and how to push units into being broken would be good, so that MSU doesn't just reign supreme constantly without having to have faction specific rules to promote large units.
gungo wrote: Running away took more time and was pretty much ignored by every army..
I actually wish more armies didn’t completely ignore morale and just ignored or reduced attrition. At best we should have abilities like breaking eads or commissar killing a single model and ending morale on a unit. Maybe some attrition modifiers and something like marines having a reroll morale aura on hq units.
But i agree orks need breakin eads to be free and killakans need to either be cheaper or Gretchin units need to have the same morale bonuses as orks but with lower leadership.
Here is the problem with the badly written morale mechanic right now.
30 orkz, lose 6 Models, you will fail except on a roll of a 1, you then lose 1 model to that and 4 more to attrition, you lost 5 models (40pts now) from a simple Morale test. To kill 6 orkz takes 32 Bolter shots.
32 bolter shots vs a blob of 10 Marines does... 3.5dmg or just shy of 2 dead Marines, lets average up and say they lost 2...Ld 8 to LD6...still immune to morale. But now lets say they rolled horrifically and lost 5 Models, Now they have a 50/50 chance to fail morale, on the off chance they do fail morale they lose 1 model. Down to 4 models. They now have a 66% chance to lose 1 more at best. So a 50/50 and a 60/40 to lose 2 models which totals...36pts, So even when you up the dmg significantly, even when you swing hte numbers wildly in favor of the shooter, SM still are functionally immune to Morale... And of course, and most importantly, NOBODY TAKES MOBZ OF 10! LOL. Why take 10 Marines in 1 squad when you can take 2x5? And in a mob of 5 even if you kill 4, the remaining guy still has a 66% chance to pass morale.
And here is the problem with Breaking heads even if it was free. Nobody in the ork world is taking mobz bigger than 10 right now at the competitive level because its just too much of a liability. So in a mob of 10 you lose 5 guys, you will likely fail morale so instead you opt to break heads, and lose on average 2 more boyz. Well if you just went with morale you had a 33% chance to pass morale, and even if you failed you were likely only losing 1-2 more models. So it averages out to the same damn thing, but both have swing chances of only doing 1 casualty and of doing 3+. To put it bluntly, breaking heads is stupid in its entirety, even if it was free, even if it was a Nobz ability or warboss ability instead of a ridiculous Stratagem.
I think they might try to streamline the morale phase more in 10th since it seems their goal is to try and make the game more simple and accessible. I feel like they should keep morale checks the same then just completely get rid of combat attrition tests and just make it if you failed morale you lose a model per 5 models killed that turn or something. Then they should give orks back their 8th edition morale rules.
News from Competitive Innovations on Goonhammer = I' m bussy and there is the same kind of Goff lists again and again. So no reports from me for a while.
Anyone tried anything new lately? Any new builds or underused units? I'm still trying to find a way of making Deff Dreads viable without devoting the entire list to taking nine of them
How have you been making Deffdreads work? I'm thinking about bringing a bunch for a 1k event. So far the list is looking like:
Deathskulls
Mega Armor Warboss w/Dead 'Ard and Krushing Armor
Big mek w/KFF 10x Beastsnaggas
10x Grots
3x Deffdreads w/4xKlaws
3x Deffdreads w/2xSkorchas and 2x Klaws
And two units of 5 of either Kommandos or Stormboyz
The field will probably be mostly Guard or Eldar, with a few various Space Marines sprinkled in.
Anyone tried anything new lately? Any new builds or underused units? I'm still trying to find a way of making Deff Dreads viable without devoting the entire list to taking nine of them
I'm running 3 separate dreads. I spend 3 CP pre game to put the two planes, a squad of grots and one of the dreads into reserve (if my opponent has a way to take out two flyers T1)
My CP are reserved for autopass moral or fight on death and then 2 CP for ramming speed to give the dread coming in from reserve a 3d6 charge (it'll also have a 5++, an extra attack and 2 extra strength as Ill call waaagh T2)
Battle Size [6CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)
Clan Kultur: Goffs
Detachment Command Cost [-3CP]
Game Type: 4. Chapter Approved: War Zone Nephilim
+ No Force Org Slot +
Runtherd [2 PL, 35pts]: Grot Lash, Grot-Prod
+ HQ +
Boss Zagstruk [6 PL, 110pts]
Warboss [5 PL, -2CP, 105pts]: 4. Brutal but Kunnin, Attack Squig, Da Killa Klaw, Kombi-skorcha, Power Klaw, Stratagem: Big Boss, Stratagem: Extra Gubbinz
Weirdboy [4 PL, 70pts]: 3. Da Jump, 4. Fists of Gork
I take GtGB, green tide and for the third either a kill secondary, biggest and the best or a psychic secondary. Good results against knights and chaos so far.
So as far as Dreads go I initially tried a single all klaws dread with Stompamatic Pistons. This was kinda nice as it kept up well with the rest of my Goffs list and it's cheap. However for some reason a lone dread will almost always be shot off the board before it makes combat, even if there's better targets than it. Works best in a list of comparable pace and durability, like buggies.
Triple dreads only works if you're taking loads of vehicles for target saturation or your opponent is bad at screening at you port them in. I would say if you want to take three, don't. Find the points and take six.
Two seems okay. They have a relatively smallish footprint for Tellyporting and two dreads are easier to hide than three if they're walking. In my list, they either port in or they're somewhat protected if they're walking by all the Kommandos and Squigs in the opponent's face.
Skorchas never seem worthwhile unless your list is somehow really lacking anti infantry. A klaw dread kills heavy infantry and vehicles, we should only be putting it into trash infantry if we're bullying some Grots or Guardsmen off of an objective.
I haven't tried any Dakka dreads yet, so I have no input on that front.
Afrodactyl wrote: Anyone tried anything new lately? Any new builds or underused units? I'm still trying to find a way of making Deff Dreads viable without devoting the entire list to taking nine of them
Yeah man, running blood axes atm, 3/0, 2/1 and 4/2 on this list (+like 20 practice games):
Spoiler:
Batallion BLOODAXE squig boss (tough as nails, beasthide, warlord) snikrot weirdboy: dajump/fists (I've got a plan ladz)
and the last 300 points is either 3 scrapjets (one unit) or two wazbombs (dropping stormboyz)
List is super technical, lots of fun. You can redeploy the two rigs and the scrapjets into reserve based on their shooting. Or you can redeploy snikrot and his kommandos against melee for positioning. In cover kommandos are basically unchargable thanks to Surprise!, you can bunker on a corner objective and score GTGB + greentide pretty passively for at least 15 and 10 respectively (without even moving), add on Biggest and the best and you got 15/10/10 on your secondaries while only holding 2 objectives in the corners. You can bait people forward, get good charges, 3d6 off deepstrike with your vehicles, pretty much guarantee your output. And you can switch modes and charge forward if you need to. The list does warp ritual really well as well. Blood axe stormboys are amazing with 7" charges, and with a 13 man squad they survive the overwatch/auspex to get you green tide. I like 10 man squads for green tide the most. + this list only has 90 some wounds so you dont give up no-prisoners, but it does have heaps of characters so you gotta play cagey against assasinate (but this list can do that). The flamer MANz as trukk boys are amazing, if you can use them for a turn without getting out of the trukk it feels like you can't lose, then they just touch whatever they want while ALSO flaming some random crap, actually godlike unit.
I lost to Tau twice with this list, I'm learning that I can't play tricky against them I have to deploy on the line and hope to go first (can't win them all), and I lost to an eldar player who just straight up outplayed me. The list smashes sisters and necrons, has a hard time with nids and Tau, but has good game vs the middling armies IMO.
I got another list, since people think freebootas are dead, this is more of a teams list:
IMO this list crushes the top of the meta atm (sisters, necrons, quins, any AoC thanks to mass ap3, CSM, any melee only army) probably has medium game against votan (at least you almost certainly need ghaz vs votan, goff pressure probably better), but goes toe to toe with most shooting armies (except nids and knights) and otherwise tables everything else. If you dont table them you still have a lot of good primary play, you're putting pressure on them so your backfield is comfortable and you can obsec some bullets to steal objectives. Plays GTGB, engage, warp-ritual, and da biggest boss, but you want to play killing secondaries really. Less to talk about with this build, but stormboyz and trukkboyz are stealing primary for two turns almost guaranteed thanks to obsec stratagem. There is a serious consideration for a deffkilla with the boss pole as your warlord in this list (especially if you think you have a durable meta), but it drops you down to zero CP (meaning you can't -1 to hit turn 1 if you go second) which is a big deal, you also lose 5++ from dropping ghaz, but you gain more units (probably some MANz) to help play engage.
edit: while I'm here doing my yearly post, I'll show off my evil sunz list that was in Nachmund. I went 4/1 in a highly competitive GT here, and almost 85% winrate with this list all year except I kept losing to nids so I mixed it up a little:
Spoiler:
Batallion EVIL SUNZ Squig boss (redder paint, tough as nails) weirdboy (da jump/fists)
Patrol EVIL SUNZ Warboss on Warbike (Killa klaw, BKK)
10 grots 6 stormboyz x2
This list runs GTGB (sometimes rnd), engage, and biggest boss almost always. The reason why it's worth talking about is 36" moving bikes (which you can still do, the strat is busted you can evne do it after you fall back). Evil sunz will move block ANYONE, but you give up a bike squad every turn for it. So you have MANz and boyz in battlewagons running up behind warbikers (which pin/wrap and die), you have three rukka trukks doing work all game (including charging in turn 4) and you flood the field and keep them in their deployment zone for 2 or 3 turns. If anything jumps over you make it fight last and kill it with MANz. They can shoot battlewagons if they want, but they better be able to clear the bikes or they will lose. This list was an absolute blast to play, until nids arrived with 30+ mortals a turn and table you one turn earlier than everyone else. Still an interesting concept of a list that I would go back to if I wasn't having so much fun with blood axes.
As far as im aware, if ghaz is your warlord, and hes in a supreme detatchment that would make "Goff" Your klan which would cut you off from using the freebootas stratagem.
On the other hand, i have no idea if your "Klan" is freebootas if ghaz is your warlord in a freebootas detatchment. I suppose thats how it works?
I just kind of understood your freebootas list as ghaz in a supreme detatchment given he stood alone. And im somewhat confident your klan is derived from your warlords klan. Which in this case with ghaz in a supreme, would be goffs.
Yup, Warlord is what triggers what kulture stratagems and relics you have access to.
CLAN STRATAGEMS
Each clan has an associated Clan Stratagem. If your army is led by an ORKS <CLAN> WARLORD, you can spend Command points to use this Stratagem in addition to Ork Stratagems.
CLAN RELICS
Each clan has an associated Clan Relic. If your army is led by an ORKS <CLAN> WARLORD, you can select this Relic instead of Shiny Gubbinz.
So even if Ghaz is in a Freeboota detachment, which doesnt screw with Freeboota kulture since hes an exempt clause (though he doesnt get Goff kulture), since he has to be the warlord that means you have Goff strat/relics not freeboota.
Him being in or out of the detachment specifically doesnt have any effect on this, and seeing as putting him in a Supreme is literally free unless youre hitting a detachment cap...somehow... theres no reason to not put him in it either since then the benefits from Goff
I made a freebootas semi competitive list where i actually struggled to find room for him in a supreme detatchment. Because i didnt want to dish out points for extra HQ slots.
I ran 1 patrol and 1 battalion next to it, so i needed a Big mek with KFF, my weirdboy and then a third guy just to free ghaz from being in the freebootas detatchments.
Ended up paying 1 of my grot units for makari, who is also a specialist lad.
So there can be the issue of using ghaz as one of the HQ slots in case you dont want to spend extra points on that.
Though in the end as i said, i did manage to find a way to put ghaz in his supreme detatchment where he gets exploding sixes.
Ah yep thanks boys, that makes the list pretty interesting when considering the choices. Deffkilla with pole is really good mission playing, and really useful if you're not tabling the enemy. But ghaz raw power is probably still worth it in many matchups even if we lose obsec strat.
absolutely wrecked my buggy list like my buggies were so outclasses and my gretchin trying to hide for objectives did not do their job. judged buggies just drop.
My weird mortal wound ork list did surprisingly well and eeked a win. I think its our strongest list into votann but has some weaknesses into other things that will gatekeep it from winning anything big
absolutely wrecked my buggy list like my buggies were so outclasses and my gretchin trying to hide for objectives did not do their job. judged buggies just drop.
My weird mortal wound ork list did surprisingly well and eeked a win. I think its our strongest list into votann but has some weaknesses into other things that will gatekeep it from winning anything big
absolutely wrecked my buggy list like my buggies were so outclasses and my gretchin trying to hide for objectives did not do their job. judged buggies just drop.
My weird mortal wound ork list did surprisingly well and eeked a win. I think its our strongest list into votann but has some weaknesses into other things that will gatekeep it from winning anything big
What units did the Votann player bring? What was the most valuable unit for you in that matchup?
not sure i will get all the names right and there was a lot of proxies
the named guy ironmaster, a champoin
4x units of troops with the ion blasters str 5 ap-2 D2 (woof these hurt)
1 group of bezerkers with axes
2 units hearthguard
3 sagitaur
2 land fortress
land fortress probably thier mvps those were grossly undercosted for what they do 18W T8 2+ and heavy shooting.
my ork mvp the nobz on squigs and bosses probably
i think the biggest thing my list had is small footprints and hiding out of line of sight up until the assaults and picking units that let me after overpowering assaults consolidate out of line of sights as well, killrigs cannot do this and were gone by top of turn 3.
by the end of the game i had cowering gretchin and a few models left per squad of beastsnagga boyz holding things to win on points, both bosses dead, squig riders dead and 2 nob squigs harassing and threatening if the votann moved out of thier hidey deployment. of note they still had half their army but i played to secondaries better to squeek the victory.
Sounds very much like Votann will be an uphill struggle for us Orks. There's a fair amount I've seen that probably needs price hikes or nerfs, but who knows when that will happen.
i mean, Voltann have been debated on being banned even before they came out theyre so obviously broken.
Yeah theyre slow and only have medium ranged guns at best, but when they basically auto-delete anything they catch its still not balanced at all.
The judgement token mechanic is pretty broken given how uninteractive it is and how it punishes your opponent for basically playing the game with no way of removing them. Votann are currently held in check with the limited model availability for their range as well as their relatively slow movement for their infantry, though the transports mitigate that pretty strongly.
Orks best bet is to pin them in their deployment zone and hope to score an early enough lead that they can't make up the points back even after they basically table you.
I don't think they're really even going to suffer from mobility that much like people think, at least competitive lists. Most players will take at least 2 jetbike squads that ignore cover and get a pre game move and then probably max fortresses with their infantry loaded up so they can move 10" first turn then disembark and be at midfield next turn.
to me other than Votann being really really powerful. Once out of transports they are slow. Also like with most ork matchups using lien of sight blocking terrain and doing your best to prevent them from getting LOS for shots was my only hope. my squigs with killrigs is the smallest footprint army i can wield and it still packs a ton of mortals wounds to crack the tanks then hide. Try to win on points keeping the opponent hemmed in knowing if they come to you they will be charged. our secondaries are pretty easy to max so its a play to the mission type deal. if it were just a matter of old school kill points we would not stand a chance
Whelp, while it sucks for players that bought the Votann codex having it invalidated so quickly, they got nerfed already. They don't get auto-6's to wound for their judgement tokens and points went up across the board in the army.
yea, the procing auto6s hurt like a lot. i get its a core mechanic of the army but holy crap 6s when you roll a 4 was insane out the gate. honestly I am surprised they fixed it so quickly. I look forward to picking up used Votann models freshly built on ebay as they are not autowin by taking anymore and maybe after another balance sheet or 2. I like the look of the army, very late 1990's-early 2000s sci fi channel vibes in a lot of it which appeals to me for painting.
Also its goign to be hilarious seeing the same "that guy" players trying to bring thier new Votann and play them with codex points rather than FAQ points and you knwo those same people will insist its just using the book they have and they only play what is printed no need for FAQs, and to resolve disputes with rolloffs. (there are 2 people locally i know who i am willing to bet dollars to doughnuts try and do this for the next year or 2 until people stop playing them with the broken nonsense)
Vineheart01 wrote: So now Voltann have anti-synergy for a core rule....awesome work gw!
Man im glad i didnt buy that army.
(They have a lot of 6 to wound effects and judgement tokens actively block you from using them now)
Yup, it's hilarious that it's a detriment to rail weapons proccing their ability. Never change Gdubs, never change.
Automatically proccing sixes was one of the biggest balance issues though. Plus you can still proc those skills, just not when auto-wounding.
Oh, don't get me wrong, it needed to happen, it's just funny how you actually want to NOT have lots of judgement tokens on a unit when using rail weapons now though.
Jidmah wrote: Still sounds like vastly more synergy than anything ork related.
I mean, it's not a high bar to pass considering how little Ork codex units work alongside one another. The strats, WL traits and relics remain untouched so they're still very pushed ruleswise.
somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but blood axe's light cover trait confers to vehicles as well right? it has the same wording as grey knights tide of shadows which applies to vehicles so I don't see why it wouldn't. Trying to make a triple kannon wagon list work lol.
flaming tadpole wrote: somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but blood axe's light cover trait confers to vehicles as well right? it has the same wording as grey knights tide of shadows which applies to vehicles so I don't see why it wouldn't. Trying to make a triple kannon wagon list work lol.
Yup, no restrictions when it comes to the types of models, it only doesn't apply to Gretchin units.
It is decent for a kannon wagon list, simply because kannon wagons actually have the range to be outside of 18" from enemy units to benefit from the cover, and being able to fall back and shoot does mean opponent's can't love tap it and prevent you from shooting for a turn. The only rough thing is that even with a SpeedWAAGH!, armour of contempt hurts its damage output significantly and Mek Gunz are generally just better cost-efficiency wise.
With the Blood Axes rule for being 18'' away and getting the benefit of light cover... does that stack for a +2 to save when infantry are actually in light cover?
PaddyMick wrote: With the Blood Axes rule for being 18'' away and getting the benefit of light cover... does that stack for a +2 to save when infantry are actually in light cover?
It doesn't work that way since you count as being in light cover already for the BA rule, so being in light cover again doesn't do anything and won't stack. It's different from the wording that kommandos have that let's them stack on the cover save.
It is decent for a kannon wagon list, simply because kannon wagons actually have the range to be outside of 18" from enemy units to benefit from the cover, and being able to fall back and shoot does mean opponent's can't love tap it and prevent you from shooting for a turn. The only rough thing is that even with a SpeedWAAGH!, armour of contempt hurts its damage output significantly and Mek Gunz are generally just better cost-efficiency wise.
Don' t hesitate and try it! Kannonwagons have couple of significant adventages over Mekguns
- FAST as hell. You can position them right every turn!
- 60” so you can shoot diagonaly over the board (synergy with FAST)
- T7!
- free big shootas. Nothing ot write home about but you find them usefull in later turns.
- looks cool
It is decent for a kannon wagon list, simply because kannon wagons actually have the range to be outside of 18" from enemy units to benefit from the cover, and being able to fall back and shoot does mean opponent's can't love tap it and prevent you from shooting for a turn. The only rough thing is that even with a SpeedWAAGH!, armour of contempt hurts its damage output significantly and Mek Gunz are generally just better cost-efficiency wise.
Don' t hesitate and try it! Kannonwagons have couple of significant adventages over Mekguns
- FAST as hell. You can position them right every turn!
- 60” so you can shoot diagonaly over the board (synergy with FAST)
- T7!
- free big shootas. Nothing ot write home about but you find them usefull in later turns.
- looks cool
Oh, don't get me wrong, I have like 3 looted wagons that I want to run as kannonwagons, and I've always wanted to try out an armoured krumpany list. What kind of list goes well with them though, buggies? And which klan would work best with them? Bad Moonz technically gives them the most besides mayyybe Freebooterz and Blood Axes (though for Freebooterz it's more so they can bypass -1 to hit mods).
I haven't tried them together, but I feel like buggies may not synergize super well with them since you'd likely run them together in freebootas and end up using them as sort of a lower damage output version of mek gunz trying to proc the +1 for the rest of the army.
Badmoonz could be useful for sure for the ap and you'd likely want ghaz in the list which would definitely start making them a bit more scary at potential ap4.
Think I might try blood axes first as it seems to be the best fit for them on paper. Probably would add in 2 wazboms with their stock 36" guns so they can benefit from it too. Definitely would want 2x10 and 1x5 kommandos for the spotted 'em strat that synergizes nicely with the wagons. Then add snikrot for the easy surprize activation and +1 to hit probably. I'd really want to have ghaz in this list, but having blood axe strats I think is more important.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Here’s my rough draft.
Warbikers seem pretty tough in blood axes with 3+, 3-4 wounds, and -1 to hit. Manz and burns boyz I’m sorta torn on. The idea with the burns boyz is to put into strategic reserve turn 1 and then maybe try to get into the enemies backfield. Manz are just there to push the center and be a bullet sponge for a couple turns hopefully.
i dont see why buggies wouldnt work with 3 supashootas.
Theyre all vehicles, so a speedwaagh would boost all of them. Buggies are cheap and wide, making it harder to reach the supakannons with melee or short guns.
Buggies, even the Scrapjet, have a lot of guns that hit targets the supakannon doesnt wanna hit.
I think Bikers would also be a good pick, since also speedwaagh, big footprint, chaff clearing potential.
Also, both are not Heavy so no need for extra detachments. I actually feel like the other Heavy choices dont work with supakannons that well.
Walkers: require a lot of heavy slots to bring enough to actually do something, which would be taxing to do.
Regular wagons: need something to occupy them and usually would leave supakannons alone if you do that
Mek gunz: immobile, hit the same targets for the most part as supakannons.
Lootas: .....no
Flash Gitz: i could see this being funny, the supakannon does have transport capacity btwlol
Tomsug wrote: Freebootas +1 to hit does not work well on Kannonwagons because they have already Grot gunner giving them +1 to hit!
yee that's kinda why I feel like they don't go very well with buggies since mek gunz just do that role better procing the +1 and I rarely can find a reason taking buggies outside freebootas or speedmob.
Flash Gitz: i could see this being funny, the supakannon does have transport capacity btwlol
I do like the idea of throwing flashgitz in there for no reason. Maybe I'll try a fluffy list after with 3x6 gitz pulling up in their supakannons. On a somewhat related thought has anyone tried gitz or bustaz in squigoths with any success?
Hi. I am new to this forum.
I play orks for 20 years now. Over the years, i played horde armies, i played speed waaghs, i played bad moon shooty armies, and i even played dread waaghs.
I am a competitive player , and i try to give my opponents a hard time in tournaments.
Out of curiousity, i made this list... The idea is to take the mid-field, and give the opponent 4 targets to kill (at least try to). I have 2 KFF's + the 5++ from the waagh. That should help to keep the big walkers alive.
Could this be a thing?
What armies would this be good against? And what armies would it fail against?
What secondaries should be doable? I personally was thinking: Biggest and da best / Stomp em Good / Get da Good Bitz.
I think i can get at least 10pts on each secondary?
Spoiler:
++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Orks) ++
+ Configuration +
Battle Size: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)
Clan Kultur: Freebooterz
Detachment Command Cost
Game Type: 4. Chapter Approved: War Zone Nephilim
+ HQ +
Big Mek w/ Kustom Force Field: Grot Oiler
Ghazghkull Thraka
+ Troops +
Gretchin
10x Gretchin: 10x Grot Blaster
Gretchin
10x Gretchin: 10x Grot Blaster
Gretchin
10x Gretchin: 10x Grot Blaster
Gretchin
10x Gretchin: 10x Grot Blaster
++ Super-Heavy Detachment -6CP (Orks) ++
+ Configuration +
Clan Kultur: Freebooterz
Detachment Command Cost
+ Lord of War +
Gorkanaut: Big Krumpaz
Morkanaut: Kustom Force Field, Stompamatic Pistons
good secondaries for it. ironically i thing one of the weaker factiosn if you run into it , imperial guard, woudl rip it in half. it has no defense against the mortals coming in with LOV and trying to get a gorkanaght and morkanaught out of LOS is going to be tough. Other than my custodes I can't think of any of my armies having a tough time taking out a gorknaught and a morkanaught they just are not good value for points and not durable enough. stompa is way better than it was, but still not in the good territory.
What you have is a good skew list, in a world where people are not planning for imperial and chaos knights it would do well, but peopel are building lsts planning for both and ork stompy robot lists are unfortunatly worse than imperial ones. That said this is a luck of the draw on opponents a lot of lists will struggle with this, its hard to build a list for harlies, tyranids, and knights if you get lucky on the matchups you might do really well.
To be blunt, that list would evaporate in most tournaments i've been to. Nautz just aren't hard to kill. Point for point they are worse than knights and knights aren't exactly top table right now. The stompa is still a lumbering pile of crap
Against bog standard Space Marines (T4 3+ 2 wounds) the Defkannon averages 10.5 shots, 3.5 hits, 2.9 wounds and 2.4 failed saves which averages 2.4 dead Marines a turn. The Gatler even in Dakka range is 2.6dmg so 1 more dead Marine, the Supa rokkit is 3.5 shots, 1.16 hits, .97 wounds, for 0.64 failed armor saves or about 1 more dead Marine on average. Skorcha gets 0.77dmg and the 5 big shootas 1.85. So your 675pt model effectively kills about 6-7 Marines...that is it.
One day GW will realize how stupid the Stompa is and find a way to fix it but.....actually no, they won't.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and for those who are going to say the Stompa is better at Killing T7 vehicles. Assuming T7 3+ armor save and no -1 to hit (which is incredibly common) or -1 to wound (not as common).
I'd say if you wanted to run super heavies, then the Kill Tank is probably the best choice. You could easily run three and still have loads of room in your list for everything else that scores you points.
You could maybe make a case for a Gorkanaut with Stompamatic Pistons, getting stuck in quickly and praying you don't get shot off the board straight away. Maybe.
I'm also pretty sure the Kustom Stompa is outright better than the regular Stompa, mostly due to the Lifta Droppa. I can't verify that claim right now though, hopefully someone more knowledgeable can weigh in.
As others have said, it could have potential if you ran into lists that don't really have answers to Knight equivalents, but those are few and far between.
SemperMortis wrote: To be blunt, that list would evaporate in most tournaments i've been to. Nautz just aren't hard to kill. Point for point they are worse than knights and knights aren't exactly top table right now. The stompa is still a lumbering pile of crap
Against bog standard Space Marines (T4 3+ 2 wounds) the Defkannon averages 10.5 shots, 3.5 hits, 2.9 wounds and 2.4 failed saves which averages 2.4 dead Marines a turn. The Gatler even in Dakka range is 2.6dmg so 1 more dead Marine, the Supa rokkit is 3.5 shots, 1.16 hits, .97 wounds, for 0.64 failed armor saves or about 1 more dead Marine on average. Skorcha gets 0.77dmg and the 5 big shootas 1.85. So your 675pt model effectively kills about 6-7 Marines...that is it.
One day GW will realize how stupid the Stompa is and find a way to fix it but.....actually no, they won't.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and for those who are going to say the Stompa is better at Killing T7 vehicles. Assuming T7 3+ armor save and no -1 to hit (which is incredibly common) or -1 to wound (not as common).
Grand total 14.3dmg Against a Knight or T8...its so much worse.
And more than that, if you run into a single -1 to hit you cut your dmg in half!
Yeah...the Stompa is so hopelessly outgunned by other Super heavies AND non-superheavies that it's a joke how milequetoast our weapons are. Just look at the Hekaton Land Fortress (even post-nerf) and compare how much better it is. No built in invuln., only a 3+ save, no ramshackle even, which including the profile of the Stompa and lack of fly makes them unwieldy and borderline impossible to hide in most tables. I always felt that if they were going to make Mork/Gorkanauts actual super heavies, that simply bumping them up to 24 wounds wasn't enough.
Morkanauts, as the default shooty dread, should have BS4+ base to reflect the Mek driving the damn thing and how Big Meks are BS4+ in the codex anyways. Gorkanauts should have WS2+ to show their predilection towards CC and making them degrade less starkly while taking damage and actually making the most of their melee profile without having to rely on a specialist mob. They should have a real -1D ability regardless of the strength of the weapon, superior to Ramshackle, as it makes no sense that chip damage is more effective against them than buggies.
Stompas should be a mix of these two dual natures of Gork/Mork, with WS2+ and BS4+. This way -1 hit mods don't completely neuter their shooting, while in CC they're at least on par with Gorkanauts. Ideally they have a built in 5+ invuln save (call it power fields), and at least we would be on the right track. Frankly, all three units probably need a full rewrite, but assuming we have to make changes to the current datasheets, these are the minimum needed to move them toward their current price points.
To be fair the stompa is pretty much done in 9th and likely 10th Ed.. there is nothing they can do to fix it anymore.
The issue is the model is to large now for the size of the board and the amount of terrain needed for a well balanced game. It is nearly impossible to deploy the mode in your own deployment zone without removing terrain and if you are able to do that it’s horrendously bad at moving on the border because of its massive footprint. For what is essentially a melee or partial melee super heavy it’s ruined by basic 40K tournament design. The nauts are likely to be decent again becuse they are much smaller footprint.
Yeah there's a lot of core game rules for 9th that just work against using super-heavy units in general unless they're very carefully designed. Some datasheets like the Tyranid Hierophant had to have the FLY keyword in order to not get stuck on terrain. Cover and line of sight will always be a weakness for huge models on a regular board.
They're also denied sub-faction bonuses unless you bring 3 of these units and pay 6CP for it. I wanted to run both a Gorkanaut and Morkanaut in a walker-themed list, but there's no point in buying the latter as I can't field two under the current rules without giving up a lot of CPand clan bonuses for a third of my army.
I wish GW would either allow those traits on a SHA, or include a 0+ LOW slot on the larger detachments like with flyers.
It would be nice if the Stompa gained a mechanic for walking through terrain, just absolutely flattening it with no regard to anything else around it or in it.
But it would probably cause all kinds of rules issues unless the rule was a horrendous wall of text written by lawyers, and even then there's no guarantee.
Yeah such a mechanic is a bad idea. At most, destroys Barricades as it walks around, because those are pretty standard.
But destroying ruins....uh....hope you dont have one of those 1/4 of the table is technically one ruin type terrains lol
Personally i think the stompa should just stay in apocalypse and they should make nauts actually worthy of being a LoW, not jus slap them in there.
Afrodactyl wrote: It would be nice if the Stompa gained a mechanic for walking through terrain, just absolutely flattening it with no regard to anything else around it or in it.
But it would probably cause all kinds of rules issues unless the rule was a horrendous wall of text written by lawyers, and even then there's no guarantee.
Oh yeah, the rocken' rolla stompa had that did it not? When GW was like, eh just have fun lol. and gave us some wacky ass rules. From a white dwarf waaaaay back if i remember right.
Don' t hesitate and try it! Kannonwagons have couple of significant adventages over Mekguns
- FAST as hell. You can position them right every turn!
- 60” so you can shoot diagonaly over the board (synergy with FAST)
- T7!
- free big shootas. Nothing ot write home about but you find them usefull in later turns.
- looks cool
I've tried it on one of a tourneys and it was quite sub-par. It just didn't seem to be killing anything. Maybe my luck but it just doesn't work vs 0+ armour. And you expect such an expensive gun to be able to make an impact.
Overall it was just some scoring that happened to be relatively tough but too expensive to be of much value. It's not too bad, but not something you can't play without.
gungo wrote: To be fair the stompa is pretty much done in 9th and likely 10th Ed.. there is nothing they can do to fix it anymore.
The issue is the model is to large now for the size of the board and the amount of terrain needed for a well balanced game. It is nearly impossible to deploy the mode in your own deployment zone without removing terrain and if you are able to do that it’s horrendously bad at moving on the border because of its massive footprint. For what is essentially a melee or partial melee super heavy it’s ruined by basic 40K tournament design. The nauts are likely to be decent again becuse they are much smaller footprint.
... well its kinda worse than that...The stompa has never been competitive...ever, in its entire existence. 9th they are garbage tier, 8th they were garbage tier, 7th they were garbage tier, 4-6 they were garbage tier.
The only time a unit with the word "Stompa" in it was good was a brief point in time when a Kustom Stompa was like 300pts and even then it wasn't broken OP. Think about that.
Interesting seeing no killrigs in any of the top Goff lists recently. Mostly just msu spam with a pair of wazboms. Good to see them make it to a couple top tables at respectable size gt.
Yeah, i remember that in 7th the kustom stompa was known and even recognized by the FW guys to be a typo'd 300ish points cheaper than the core codex stompa, and they left it alone because orks were that bad at the time.
That was the closest the stompa has ever been to being a serious threat, and it was more because the era didnt really deal with super high wound count AV13 that well than how actual dangerous it was.
It tended to survive most assaults and the mass of meks behind it would just fix most of it right back up lol (this easily is why the "cannot be repaired more than once" thing popped up im sure of it)
Ya I pretty much had no choice but to use the kustom stompa since it was pretty much the only source of D weapons and everyone you would play had an unkillable deathstar
Yup, kustom stompas were where we could get a D weapon that was blast to get around our bad BS. It really shows how broken D weapons were back in 7th since that was the only way to bypass some of the ridiculous units that existed back then.
Vineheart01 wrote: Yeah such a mechanic is a bad idea. At most, destroys Barricades as it walks around, because those are pretty standard.
But destroying ruins....uh....hope you dont have one of those 1/4 of the table is technically one ruin type terrains lol
Personally i think the stompa should just stay in apocalypse and they should make nauts actually worthy of being a LoW, not jus slap them in there.
Nauts need the Lord of war tag removed they were usable before 9th ruined them…
gungo wrote: To be fair the stompa is pretty much done in 9th and likely 10th Ed.. there is nothing they can do to fix it anymore.
The issue is the model is to large now for the size of the board and the amount of terrain needed for a well balanced game. It is nearly impossible to deploy the mode in your own deployment zone without removing terrain and if you are able to do that it’s horrendously bad at moving on the border because of its massive footprint. For what is essentially a melee or partial melee super heavy it’s ruined by basic 40K tournament design. The nauts are likely to be decent again becuse they are much smaller footprint.
... well its kinda worse than that...The stompa has never been competitive...ever, in its entire existence. 9th they are garbage tier, 8th they were garbage tier, 7th they were garbage tier, 4-6 they were garbage tier.
The only time a unit with the word "Stompa" in it was good was a brief point in time when a Kustom Stompa was like 300pts and even then it wasn't broken OP. Think about that.
That’s not true..
6th edition had the buzzgrob 600pt kustom stompa that you could put a 4++ relic kff big Mek in and repair inside the vehicle… in fact it was the only competitive list for a bit. It was also a warlord and after you blew up the stompa buzzgrob would jump out.
flaming tadpole wrote: Interesting seeing no killrigs in any of the top Goff lists recently. Mostly just msu spam with a pair of wazboms. Good to see them make it to a couple top tables at respectable size gt.
Not correct I 'm afraid. It is obvious that I' m laizy and I should do my job properly and give there CI list again.
So here we go!
Last CI are after long line of goff lists with / without the killrigs/ghazzy and planes interesting for the speedbosses like me again!
Fantasia Fanatic XLII 40K (98 players, 5 rounds)
Björn Eriksson – Orks – 4th Place - wonderful Evil Sunz Speedmob. This dude did exactly what I supposed to be the right way - flood the table with the small biker units. So say hallo to Nob Bikers! Two detachements, killa klaw and BBq warboss = almost no CP' s abut the sweet ES move after shoot cost just 1 CP you get every turn!
The secondaries selection seems to be based on Bitz, Killy and Da Biggest. Goonhammer make a soeculations about Stomp Em Good too, but I ' m definitely not sure about this.
Nah you good, I hadn’t seen ci part 2 yet so I was commenting on Darren Jac, Joe Rammuni, and Steve Pampreen’s lists from part one. Bjorn using nob bikers is wild though. Absolute mad lad.
Played a 2k game against slaanesh csm running 2 blastajets. They were pretty good - even for 230 pts each. Goffs doesn't give them any bonuses, so I ran one as a boomboy (forgot about it though).
I'm not sure I should run both with kff. Boomboy makes your s3 grenade ap2 on waagh, which will not kill much but can push an extra wound from time to time.
As for the game, we had enough time for only 2 full turns and it was not obvious what would have happened. He still has 10 termies, lucius and a half-dead little knight while I had 5 meganobz, 1-wound ghazzy, makari, one plane, megamek, some boyz, some grots, koptas and a skrapjet.
Seems like I was leading but if he could have killed ghaz and downed a plane wouldn't be able to kill his termies. I'm pretty positive that without some extreme unluck, i'd be able to outscore him eventually but we decided to call it a draw.
The great thing is that ghaz was good once again. He absorbed some shooting, killed a lil knight, a couple possessed and 8 noizemarines.
I've made a huge mistake by placing a plane too close to a flying demon prince, having forgotten about his heroic intervention. Lost a plane for no good reason. Live and learn.
Yeah, playing wih the wazbooms is special kind of art. You need to keep them alive. For any cost - be aware of charges, HI, etc.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Let' s talk about the future!
Any news about validity of this? As I see it, we' ve got our toys and have to wait 2 another years for new codex or anything.
I would like to know how long shall I expect to be able to play the Speed Mob… Don' t want to start new buggies because of something potentially invalid from Feb 23…
They have to redo that sheet and might push a few dates back.. I can’t see inquisition and fortifications all being discontinued when they still sell them and I don’t think they have time to push out new books for them… unless it’s in a new chapter approved? Regarding speed mob I don’t think they will continue to support it at best they push the date to June 2023 and 10th release. But I can see a lot of stuff being discontinued after LVO. As GW seems to follow the tournament season timeline now and GW will release at least one more campaign book beyond ark of omen so that might have those select datasheets until 10th Ed.
Tomsug wrote: Any rumours, when shall we expect the 10th?
Because I read this “Jan23 unless superseeded by codex” as “valid until we say otherwise, propably until new codex…
It's 3 years since 9e in summer and GW has been doing 3 year gap editions for a while + add to that what sounds a lot like psychic awakening/broken realms mk2 with the new campaign book series so it sounds a lot like 10th is coming 2023. If not that's huge surprise.
And GW has been for decades releasing new editions for 40k/FB/AOS in summer so summer 2023 is pretty good bet. GW will likely announce officially in may, as usual.
Officially not a word of new edition but again that's as per usual. GW hasn't admitted new edition before may before either. So above is logical conclusion based on previous patterns and how things are shaping up. Rumours also point to that but of course rumours could be based on same logical conclusion ;-)
Oh and one rumour suggested spring instead of summer but THAT I have hard time swallowing as that would be so non-typical from GW. Also prevents sale of one more CA for 9e for more books. And the psychic awakening mk2 would be pretty short one for less cash cowing.
Except books don't follow same order between editions. Only thing we can be fairly sure is marines get theirs early.
Last codex of 8e was among first ones in 9e(especially if you factor supplements away).
And supplements might just be invalidated in grand sweep. Vigilus supplements got invalidated at the start of 9e with simple statement. Generally with GW you take risk if you make extreme armies. One day odds are you get nerfed or flat out invalidated.
tneva82 wrote: Except books don't follow same order between editions. Only thing we can be fairly sure is marines get theirs early.
Last codex of 8e was among first ones in 9e(especially if you factor supplements away).
And supplements might just be invalidated in grand sweep. Vigilus supplements got invalidated at the start of 9e with simple statement. Generally with GW you take risk if you make extreme armies. One day odds are you get nerfed or flat out invalidated.
Hmm… that is right. Than comes the moment o be kunnyn and call the jetspeeder Nobz on bikes “Jethog boyz” and play them instead of dynos
Grimskul wrote: Yeah...the Stompa is so hopelessly outgunned by other Super heavies AND non-superheavies that it's a joke how milequetoast our weapons are. Just look at the Hekaton Land Fortress (even post-nerf) and compare how much better it is. No built in invuln., only a 3+ save, no ramshackle even, which including the profile of the Stompa and lack of fly makes them unwieldy and borderline impossible to hide in most tables. I always felt that if they were going to make Mork/Gorkanauts actual super heavies, that simply bumping them up to 24 wounds wasn't enough.
I really wish there was a way to take GW to task for these kinds of balance decisions.
Knock it down to 650 points, make all of its big shootas twin Big shootas, T9, 2+/5++, 50 wounds, Super Gatler goes to 36/24, and give it the +1 to hit at half range that the kill tank has, and I still probably wouldn't take it outside of meme lists
The only way to make the Stompa viable is to make it absurdly cheap, give it some movement and shooting shenanigans so it can actually function, or make it really strong and make it Apoc only
Afrodactyl wrote: Knock it down to 650 points, make all of its big shootas twin Big shootas, T9, 2+/5++, 50 wounds, Super Gatler goes to 36/24, and give it the +1 to hit at half range that the kill tank has, and I still probably wouldn't take it outside of meme lists
The only way to make the Stompa viable is to make it absurdly cheap, give it some movement and shooting shenanigans so it can actually function, or make it really strong and make it Apoc only
Yeah, pretty much they shoehorned it in despite the fact that a lot of the older superheavies (look at Baneblades and the Necron Obelisk) just don't scale very well with the current way the game is set up. You either invest too many of your points into the Stompa for the rest of your army to do much since it functionally doesn't help you fulfill any secondaries, or it becomes a too-cost efficient death star unit that obliterates everything it sees.
Afrodactyl wrote: I think it's silly that the Stompa is treated as a Knight equivalent when it really isn't. It's a Titan equivalent.
Fair enough if Morks and Gorks get the Knight treatment, but Stompas should be out hunting the really big game targets.
Or sack it all off and give me a gargant datasheet worthy of the name
Yup! I remember it was supposed to duel things closer to a Warhound Titan, you needed a kustom stompa with power fields and a extra doodads to compete but otherwise it was on a similar footing for some of the weapons.
Isn't the stompa more like a boy? It's got a slugga yeah, but the choppa is where it's meant to make it's points back. The mega choppa is fairly nice IMO, DMG 9 is fun for the memes if nothing else. The swing is decent for taking apart 3 wound models too, maybe ap3 would have been nice though.
Personally I think it needs a proper stomp attack as well. Either something that just pastes a single model ignoring invuls and wound negation but only has a single attack to represent the entirety of it's weight coming down on someone, or just a storm of weak attacks so it can rampage through a unit or two of chaff without even looking at them.
I guess I should put my money where my mouth is and actually try and take the things to an event. But our walkers of all sorts need a few more tricks to support them. From deffdreads to nauts and stompas.
cody.d. wrote: Isn't the stompa more like a boy? It's got a slugga yeah, but the choppa is where it's meant to make it's points back. The mega choppa is fairly nice IMO, DMG 9 is fun for the memes if nothing else. The swing is decent for taking apart 3 wound models too, maybe ap3 would have been nice though.
Personally I think it needs a proper stomp attack as well. Either something that just pastes a single model ignoring invuls and wound negation but only has a single attack to represent the entirety of it's weight coming down on someone, or just a storm of weak attacks so it can rampage through a unit or two of chaff without even looking at them.
I guess I should put my money where my mouth is and actually try and take the things to an event. But our walkers of all sorts need a few more tricks to support them. From deffdreads to nauts and stompas.
The damage nine attacks are really nice for absolutely annihilating anything it charges, and the damage 3 attacks are great for pasting entire units of elites. The Stompas two issues with its melee attack profile is that it degrades, getting less attacks and lower WS, and it is so damn big you will never walk out across the board to be able to charge anything.
Without rules for ignoring terrain features, the Stompa will always be a ranged unit.
I coulda sworn there was a stratagem to let you be treated as top bracket, for stompas and nauts. I know it's a bandaid fix and you're right about the degrading profile.
But yes, in a lot of situations you'd require house rules or knowledge of the terrain layout before hand to decide if you can even try to use the stompa on a board with a recommended amount of terrain. Though a lot of tourneys i've been to tend to be a little light sometimes.
The comments about the basic game rules not being suited for a model of the stompa's size do hold true I suppose. What could GW do besides either make it a gun platform or allow it to attack any unit inside a ruin or other terrain piece acting as if it was in base contact with everyone in the footprint. Which could lead to some iffy scenarios. Like a hidden melee anti tank unit getting in combat when the stompa dosen't want it.
cody.d. wrote: I coulda sworn there was a stratagem to let you be treated as top bracket, for stompas and nauts. I know it's a bandaid fix and you're right about the degrading profile.
But yes, in a lot of situations you'd require house rules or knowledge of the terrain layout before hand to decide if you can even try to use the stompa on a board with a recommended amount of terrain. Though a lot of tourneys i've been to tend to be a little light sometimes.
The comments about the basic game rules not being suited for a model of the stompa's size do hold true I suppose. What could GW do besides either make it a gun platform or allow it to attack any unit inside a ruin or other terrain piece acting as if it was in base contact with everyone in the footprint. Which could lead to some iffy scenarios. Like a hidden melee anti tank unit getting in combat when the stompa dosen't want it.
I believe that was an 8th ed strat, because I know which one you're referring to. Either way though, it'd actually be fitting that for larger walkers like Morkanauts/Gorkanauts and Stompas that to reflect the lack of a ramshackle rule that they don't degrade at all, that you literally have to reduce it down to scrap in order to stop it due to all the redundancies and orky engineering. It would be a way of making up for the fact that they take chip damage unlike other Ork vehicles.
More like gargants though in general fits idea but pre-40k rules stompas weren't one that took lots of damage(land raider scale. You either were alive or dead). Gargants(aka their titan equilavents) were like that though. Needed to blow them apart by some serious concentrated firepower because individual hit wasn't much of a worry. Imperial titans once shields out one good hit could knock one out.
I am trying to wrap my head around Björn Eriksson's Evil Sunz Speedmob.list, but I simply cannot see what is the point of bringing nobz on warbikes instead of standard warbikers.
The Goonhammer article argues the obsec ability on the nobz as an extra, but the warbikers have that AND the core keyword (more potential bodies for Get Da Good Bitz)...
Björn did not purchase any additional spec close combat weapon to the Nobz to make them more potent in CC, just barebone choppas. The +1 A & S justifies the additional 5 points / model? From wound perspective Nobz are even worse than the regular bikers (boss nob being 4 W instead of 3).
Am I missing some killer combo here?
Aqaue3 wrote: I am trying to wrap my head around Björn Eriksson's Evil Sunz Speedmob.list, but I simply cannot see what is the point of bringing nobz on warbikes instead of standard warbikers.
The Goonhammer article argues the obsec ability on the nobz as an extra, but the warbikers have that AND the core keyword (more potential bodies for Get Da Good Bitz)...
Björn did not purchase any additional spec close combat weapon to the Nobz to make them more potent in CC, just barebone choppas. The +1 A & S justifies the additional 5 points / model? From wound perspective Nobz are even worse than the regular bikers (boss nob being 4 W instead of 3).
Am I missing some killer combo here?
Purely rule of three and redundancy. He's going specifically for MSU bikers, and by taking Nob Bikers he can have six units instead of being stuck at three. The jets, buggies and Warboss are doing all of the heavy lifting as far as damage is concerned, and the Nob Bikers and Warbikers are there to score objectives.
Exactly. Bikers of any kind are great roadblocks, objective grabers, screening unit and action monkeys.
Warbikers are MUCH better, but you have a limit of 3. I wish so much warbikers would be TROOPS in SPEEDMOB. That would be great!
However they are not.
In Nachmund, speedmob needs to score Bitz. So you need your warbikers to do Bitz.
However speedmob essentially needs some bikers to roadblock, screen and bully around. And 3 units are hardly enough for Bitz and bullying around.
So you take warbikers for Bitz and Nob bikers to die like a roadblok 1,1” in front of large blob of terminators or something…
There is no point in taking better weapons on any kind on bikers. Most of the bikers die without fighting or do not fight at all because doing actions. Big Choppas and PKs are typical “I have 15p left, what can I buy?” Items.
6 biker squads with 20” movement in Evil sunz detach with move twice stran = one of the units is 40” + 2 planes + 20” koptas + jumping buggy - this is definitley something that can screen the whole table T1 and cripple all deepstriking armies.
Aqaue3 wrote: I am trying to wrap my head around Björn Eriksson's Evil Sunz Speedmob.list, but I simply cannot see what is the point of bringing nobz on warbikes instead of standard warbikers.
The Goonhammer article argues the obsec ability on the nobz as an extra, but the warbikers have that AND the core keyword (more potential bodies for Get Da Good Bitz)...
Björn did not purchase any additional spec close combat weapon to the Nobz to make them more potent in CC, just barebone choppas. The +1 A & S justifies the additional 5 points / model? From wound perspective Nobz are even worse than the regular bikers (boss nob being 4 W instead of 3).
Am I missing some killer combo here?
Purely rule of three and redundancy. He's going specifically for MSU bikers, and by taking Nob Bikers he can have six units instead of being stuck at three. The jets, buggies and Warboss are doing all of the heavy lifting as far as damage is concerned, and the Nob Bikers and Warbikers are there to score objectives.
Rule of three... Completely forgot about it. Many thanks for the clarification!
Quick question regarding Speed Freeks Speed Mob AoR: If a speed mob unit advances, it counts as having made a normal move until the end of the shooting phase instead - does that mean that it is legal to start actions at the end of movement phase (eg. grab da good bits), since at that time, the unit only counts as having made a normal move?
Bossdoc wrote: Quick question regarding Speed Freeks Speed Mob AoR: If a speed mob unit advances, it counts as having made a normal move until the end of the shooting phase instead - does that mean that it is legal to start actions at the end of movement phase (eg. grab da good bits), since at that time, the unit only counts as having made a normal move?
Adrenalin Junkies says the unit counts as making a normal move till the end of the shooting phase. So if that action is finished before that point then yeah it'd be legal. Otherwise the action would automatically fail I suppose because in the charge phase and after you count as advancing.
Otherwise the action would automatically fail I suppose because in the charge phase and after you count as advancing.
WEll, you can't start an action if you advanced (but at that point, I didn't count as advanced...) and you only automatically fail if y<ou moved after you started (which I don't). On the other hand, GW ruled that "always counts as stationary" units couldn't perform actions after advancing, which seems very similar to my case here, so it's probably not intended to work...>
So in my efforts to find a way of running dreads, I've started warming to the Mega Dread with 2 Rippa Klaws.
It is as expensive as two all klaw dreads, so it gets less attacks overall but those attacks hit so hard. Absolutely destroys vehicles, characters and terminator equivalents. Also, it comes with two flamer equivalents that for some reason aren't blast, so it's good at clearing chaff if it doesn't have anything better to charge. Being a single model makes it a hell of a lot easier to tellyport in as well.
It's also fast enough that it doesn't need to go in the tellyporta, but if it does then it's all but guaranteed to make it's charge with the 3d6 drop lowest.
It's not the most competitive choice, but treating like almost like a Ghaz-equivalent beatstick has been working well so far for my list.
I'm also warming to killsaws on my MANz lately as well. The extra attack per model and AP has been the tipping point in a few combats that PKs wouldn't have been able to manage. The damage roll is swingy, but Hit Em Harder makes them at worst PK equivalent damage if it's needed.
I'm on a mission to find a use or niche for all of our "sub-optimal" units
I always felt mekadread/mega dread should be an HQ choice for a dread army.
Give it the big Mek keyword and a dread waaagh ability. (give ghaz the dread waaagh ability too)
Fun and fluffy dread waaagh army.
I mean a few others things need to changed like nauts go to heavy and deff dreads go to elite. Put killakans as a troop choice for an army of renown and your set.
Afrodactyl wrote: So in my efforts to find a way of running dreads, I've started warming to the Mega Dread with 2 Rippa Klaws.
It is as expensive as two all klaw dreads, so it gets less attacks overall but those attacks hit so hard. Absolutely destroys vehicles, characters and terminator equivalents. Also, it comes with two flamer equivalents that for some reason aren't blast, so it's good at clearing chaff if it doesn't have anything better to charge. Being a single model makes it a hell of a lot easier to tellyport in as well.
Don't think there's flamer type of weapon that is blast. Closest is tzeentch flamers on 2CP stratagem for 11+ models if you feel like wasting CP.
gungo wrote: I always felt mekadread/mega dread should be an HQ choice for a dread army.
Give it the big Mek keyword and a dread waaagh ability. (give ghaz the dread waaagh ability too)
Fun and fluffy dread waaagh army.
I mean a few others things need to changed like nauts go to heavy and deff dreads go to elite. Put killakans as a troop choice for an army of renown and your set.
Guessing we'll see a TekWAAAGH! Army of Reknown in 10th before we see a codex. Those are some great ideas.
At he end of the art of war podcast covering the dataslate there was a question from a member about whether "the changes to thee core rules" would change thee blood axe warlord Trait that redeploys. Does nanyone have any idea what rules changes they're talking about?
Battle Size [6CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points) [6CP]
Clan Kultur: Goffs
Detachment Command Cost [-3CP]
Gametype: 4. Chapter Approved: War Zone Nephilim
+ HQ [10 PL, 185pts, -2CP] +
Warboss on Warbike [6 PL, 115pts, -2CP]: 4. Brutal but Kunnin, Da Killa Klaw, 2x Dakkagun, Power Klaw, Stratagem: Big Boss [-1CP], Stratagem: Extra Gubbinz [-1CP]
Weirdboy [4 PL, 70pts]: 3. Da Jump, 4. Fists of Gork, Weirdboy Staff
Reminds me of my own Rig list. It doesnt involve Ghaz though, nor Mega Nobz.
I still dont understand the fuzz about using ghaz. On one hand, sure you get a great beatstick, but i feel like you also write yourself off from being able to use biggest and da best. I would not use biggest and da best on a model i cant give look out sir to.
Beardedragon wrote: Reminds me of my own Rig list. It doesnt involve Ghaz though, nor Mega Nobz.
I still dont understand the fuzz about using ghaz. On one hand, sure you get a great beatstick, but i feel like you also write yourself off from being able to use biggest and da best. I would not use biggest and da best on a model i cant give look out sir to.
And that is exactly why I didn't take him in my list. Hes just too squishy for his price point.
Beardedragon wrote: Reminds me of my own Rig list. It doesnt involve Ghaz though, nor Mega Nobz.
I still dont understand the fuzz about using ghaz. On one hand, sure you get a great beatstick, but i feel like you also write yourself off from being able to use biggest and da best. I would not use biggest and da best on a model i cant give look out sir to.
And that is exactly why I didn't take him in my list. Hes just too squishy for his price point.
yea. I mean im getting at least 10 points on my biggest and da best, using an ard as nails beasthide mantle beastboss on squig. And on some maps if the enemy dont have much indirect fire i can also get at least 10 points on greentide having my grots sitting on the objectives near my battlefield edge while simultaneously doing Good bits.
With these secondaries, i dont even need to enter my opponents side of the board except for holding him back. I have much better freedom to play than to YOLO my way in to a constant kill game. I havent even run Assassinate nor prisoners or bring it down in my last 2 different tournaments.
I dont often run greentide, but you can change it out for something else. Point simply is, Good bits and biggest and da best? Absolute wins for me. Biggest and da best, wouldnt be a win if i ran ghaz.
Battle Size [6CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points) [6CP]
Clan Kultur: Goffs
Detachment Command Cost [-3CP]
Gametype: 4. Chapter Approved: War Zone Nephilim
+ HQ [10 PL, 185pts, -2CP] +
Warboss on Warbike [6 PL, 115pts, -2CP]: 4. Brutal but Kunnin, Da Killa Klaw, 2x Dakkagun, Power Klaw, Stratagem: Big Boss [-1CP], Stratagem: Extra Gubbinz [-1CP]
Weirdboy [4 PL, 70pts]: 3. Da Jump, 4. Fists of Gork, Weirdboy Staff
guess Leviathan really was the gatekeeper keeping us down.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Curious if he was using the bw more for his Manz or ghaz. I think using it for ghaz makes biggest/best a bit more of a reliable option since you can just plop him full health right into the enemy for 8-10 points minimum before he dies.
Tomsug wrote: Ben Jurek 1st on SOCAL with classic Goffs.
Which is huge, because Ben Jurek is Ben Jurek and SOCAL is 6 turns/185 players. Gosh I 'm happy Dataslate is already out
Double killrigs again. Eh, i don't think it's gonna last too long. It's just such an odd combination of rules in one model. Character, psycher, vehicle, transport... Fights better than any other non-hq fighter point/point, casts magic, shoots auto-hitting lazcannons, can slow the enemy with his lobba, gets all the character bonuses, can use vehicle upgrades, can transport troops.
It's just too much. But that makes it a canterpiexe at the same time. The problem is... I can't really remember any centerpiece unit keeping it's place for more than a year since 8th Ed. Maybe a bikerboss but that's it.
Tomsug wrote: Ben Jurek 1st on SOCAL with classic Goffs.
Which is huge, because Ben Jurek is Ben Jurek and SOCAL is 6 turns/185 players. Gosh I 'm happy Dataslate is already out
Double killrigs again. Eh, i don't think it's gonna last too long. It's just such an odd combination of rules in one model. Character, psycher, vehicle, transport... Fights better than any other non-hq fighter point/point, casts magic, shoots auto-hitting lazcannons, can slow the enemy with his lobba, gets all the character bonuses, can use vehicle upgrades, can transport troops.
It's just too much. But that makes it a canterpiexe at the same time. The problem is... I can't really remember any centerpiece unit keeping it's place for more than a year since 8th Ed. Maybe a bikerboss but that's it.
I hope it lasts, I've finally caved and just bought two of them
Battle Size [6CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points) [6CP]
Clan Kultur: Goffs
Detachment Command Cost [-3CP]
Gametype: 4. Chapter Approved: War Zone Nephilim
+ HQ [10 PL, 185pts, -2CP] +
Warboss on Warbike [6 PL, 115pts, -2CP]: 4. Brutal but Kunnin, Da Killa Klaw, 2x Dakkagun, Power Klaw, Stratagem: Big Boss [-1CP], Stratagem: Extra Gubbinz [-1CP]
Weirdboy [4 PL, 70pts]: 3. Da Jump, 4. Fists of Gork, Weirdboy Staff
They are balancing based on win rates not a single tournament. Orks are safe at 49% below average win rates and I believe are still match up dependent. We had a few bad matchups including Tyranids. But this list is built for mission control… get good bits, biggest and baddest, and quickly deployable units.
Battle Size [6CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points) [6CP]
Clan Kultur: Goffs
Detachment Command Cost [-3CP]
Gametype: 4. Chapter Approved: War Zone Nephilim
+ HQ [10 PL, 185pts, -2CP] +
Warboss on Warbike [6 PL, 115pts, -2CP]: 4. Brutal but Kunnin, Da Killa Klaw, 2x Dakkagun, Power Klaw, Stratagem: Big Boss [-1CP], Stratagem: Extra Gubbinz [-1CP]
Weirdboy [4 PL, 70pts]: 3. Da Jump, 4. Fists of Gork, Weirdboy Staff
They are balancing based on win rates not a single tournament. Orks are safe at 49% below average win rates and I believe are still match up dependent. We had a few bad matchups including Tyranids. But this list is built for mission control… get good bits, biggest and baddest, and quickly deployable units.
Tomsug wrote: Ben Jurek 1st on SOCAL with classic Goffs.
Which is huge, because Ben Jurek is Ben Jurek and SOCAL is 6 turns/185 players. Gosh I 'm happy Dataslate is already out
Double killrigs again. Eh, i don't think it's gonna last too long. It's just such an odd combination of rules in one model. Character, psycher, vehicle, transport... Fights better than any other non-hq fighter point/point, casts magic, shoots auto-hitting lazcannons, can slow the enemy with his lobba, gets all the character bonuses, can use vehicle upgrades, can transport troops.
It's just too much. But that makes it a canterpiexe at the same time. The problem is... I can't really remember any centerpiece unit keeping it's place for more than a year since 8th Ed. Maybe a bikerboss but that's it.
Nope. They rised their price once and than put it down again. They are in no way overpowered.
And Killrigs, Squigriders, Snaggaboyz and Koptas are the last models they want to sell. Killrigs and squigriders will be the top tier for next year at least and I think, there could be a revival of buggies/koptas again.
In 10th ed Ork codex in 2 years, there will be a new models. Maybe walkers. Maybe tanks? Or whatever. I have no idea. But jtere will be a new models after 2 years break. And than comes the cuts on Killrigs to push forward the new models. Same story like with the buggies.
So I'm warming on Ghaz again, funnily enough after adding the Mega Dread to my list.
They have a reasonably similar defensive/offensive/movement profile, so I've been using them as a pair of big (fairly) durable beatsticks in the middle of the board and it's really working out nicely.
the thing that keeps me from running the mega dread over regular dreads is how badly it degrades. Losing WS at every degradation is rough for a walker that's already getting out damaged by it's point equivalent in dreads at it's top bracket.
flaming tadpole wrote: the thing that keeps me from running the mega dread over regular dreads is how badly it degrades. Losing WS at every degradation is rough for a walker that's already getting out damaged by it's point equivalent in dreads at it's top bracket.
I've predominantly been tellyporting it in, so it gets to swing at full power and kill something important most games. But the degrading WS is pretty rough if I don't get it to go off.
The issue with instead taking say, 2 dreads, is that they take up more room if you tellyport them, and they both don't get ramming speed if you use it. At least the Mega dread is only one model and natively gets a more reliable charge.
I'm still toying with things so things are very much liable to change, but the mega dread does hit about as hard as Ghaz does, which is nothing to sniff at. D3+3 damage is nice.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And few more info directly from Ben Jurek:
Automatically Appended Next Post: Write there something someone so I can post there another succesfull Warboss from this week in separate post? It' s a Speed Mob
To be fair and no knock on Ben he somehow skirted through socal without facing a single tyranid, harlequin or necron army. And the dataslate nerfs wasn’t even in effect.
He faced off against several chaos armies, a demon army, a knights army and a tau army….
It does kinda prove Tyranids were a strong anti ork roadblock. The dataslate will definitely help but Tyranids will still be strong.
gungo wrote: To be fair and no knock on Ben he somehow skirted through socal without facing a single tyranid, harlequin or necron army. And the dataslate nerfs wasn’t even in effect.
He faced off against several chaos armies, a demon army, a knights army and a tau army….
It does kinda prove Tyranids were a strong anti ork roadblock. The dataslate will definitely help but Tyranids will still be strong.
That is a very good point. Ben is notoriously known good player. His list is nothing new. Such lists were there already one year ago. And on every tournament, it' s a lottery with the opponents.
Ok, new competitive Innovations are out. And I take this opportunity to make a short summary:
What we see is the more stabilized meta than before. Even if we have about 49% win rate, in good hands, with fine matchups and with the help of Gork and Mork, we can score high on major tournaments. Not only Ben Jurek last week, but generali this is the story of last 6 months.
New dataslate is out and there are no idrect changes for orks. So we have another 4 months until the new Mission Pack to play with our lists we have now.
The only aspect that is important for us is, that Octarius SPEED MOB + BLOODAXE KOMMANDOS expansions are market as “valid at least until Jan 23 or until new codex”. Nobody knows what happen in Feb 23.
… my guess is that GW says they are fine until new codex in April, so there will be 2 month pf confusion in between
Orks now play basicly 2 types of army and each of them in variations.
1. GOFF preasure list. Sometimes it is not goffs, sometimes it is not so much preassure, but generali a combination of CC units that push where it' s necessary.
Well known is what Ben Jurek had - ghazzy, two killrigs, meganobz etc. But that is not the only one. Sean Neyden was 11th on SOCAL with one loss (hich is bloody good!) without any killrigs and with a bunch of HQs. If you check my reports here, you will see also a combinations with buggies, wazbooms, deffdreads, hell even Mega Dreads!
This is definitely the n1 build now.
2. Speed Mob - basicly two options.
Either one detach with big squads of buggies and Speedking Wartrike. Gameplan is move and shoot and keep Wartrike alive. Killing secondaries + Da Biggest. Freebootas or Evil Sunz.
Or you take two detach evil sunz with 3 warbikers and 3 nob bikers and play more about board control and Bitz and roadblocks.
There was few deviations from this scheme - like the list with the Kustom Stompa few months ago. But generali, there is pretty low variety in concepts.
And https://youtu.be/tZw6xRGNMDU - Auspex Tactics made his own overview of orks. I havent hear it yet, so I hope there are no nonsences
Ben Jurek 1st on SOCAL. List was already there, I putthere once again for order. What is important is that there is a long interview with Ben in Goonhammer CI linked above, so who is interested, check it!
Battle Size [6CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points) [6CP]
Clan Kultur: Goffs
Detachment Command Cost [-3CP]
Gametype: 4. Chapter Approved: War Zone Nephilim
+ HQ [10 PL, 185pts, -2CP] +
Warboss on Warbike [6 PL, 115pts, -2CP]: 4. Brutal but Kunnin, Da Killa Klaw, 2x Dakkagun, Power Klaw, Stratagem: Big Boss [-1CP], Stratagem: Extra Gubbinz [-1CP]
Weirdboy [4 PL, 70pts]: 3. Da Jump, 4. Fists of Gork, Weirdboy Staff
Will Paul 2nd on Montreal Mayor - one detachement speedmob. Just to mention - “Montreal Mayor” is 31 players and Will Paul place well also on other tournaments in the area with different armies (Nids)
Spoiler:
Army name: Ork attempt
Factions used: Orks
Army of Renown: Speed Freeks Speed Mob
Command Points: 6-1=5
Total cost: 2000 pts, 105 PL Reinforcement Points: none pts
Number of Units: 10
Assassination: 4 points
Bring it Down: 15 points
No Prisoners: 2 points
Abhor the Witch: 0 points
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Im not sure how much of a fan i am of "Da Jump" given the change to "Ere we go" from 8th to 9th.
I absolutely loved da jump in 8th because we could reroll a single die rather than both. But now when you are 9 inches away, if you fail it, you are just absolutely dead. Sure you were dead before as well, but it was much harder to fail.
It feels really risky to do da jump, and the unit is absolutely blended if its failed.
Also im watching the stream with Ben Jurek, and it seems like he declares a charge turn 1 with squig riders, then gets hit by a -2 modifier to the charge by his opponent, and THEN he says he will use tide of muscle. Im pretty confident you are not allowed to do that. Tide of muscle isnt a counteractive stratagem you can use after the opponent has declared his own intentions of stratagem usage. You declare tide of muscle when you declare the charge. Same with Ramming speed.
At least i believe thats how it works.
Still though, a shout out to Ben for winning against Tau. But if he hadnt gone first turn, he would have been crushed i think. Tau is such a nasty army to play against as Orks.
Also im watching the stream with Ben Jurek, and it seems like he declares a charge turn 1 with squig riders, then gets hit by a -2 modifier to the charge by his opponent, and THEN he says he will use tide of muscle. Im pretty confident you are not allowed to do that. Tide of muscle isnt a counteractive stratagem you can use after the opponent has declared his own intentions of stratagem usage. You declare tide of muscle when you declare the charge. Same with Ramming speed.
At least i believe thats how it works.
Still though, a shout out to Ben for winning against Tau. But if he hadnt gone first turn, he would have been crushed i think. Tau is such a nasty army to play against as Orks.
It would depend more on the strat being used by your opponent. Some are actually keyed on the beginning of the phase rather than when units are selected (wireweave grenades for instance), which means if Ben had already declared a unit to be charging then the opponent is the one at fault.
Ah yes that could be correct. If the Tau stratagem would be used at the start of the charging phase, rather than when a unit is the target of a charge, he would be excused.
In that case the Tau player made a mistake. If that is the case that is. I dont know when the Tau player has to use the stratagem.
Will Paul's list is interesting in some its choices. Namely a fully squad of squigbuggies and a bonebreaka (!) with.a kannon (!!). I would never have considered any of them as competitive choices, perhaps a single squigbuggy with the +1 to wound kustom job but not a full squad, and especially not the wagon. Nevertheless it is very nice to see them in a top placed list.
It is a shame that the kannonWAGON cannot be included in the Speed Freek AoR due to its lack of WAGON keyword, in my opinion that would be the best option for a freebooterz oriented army.
Aqaue3 wrote: Will Paul's list is interesting in some its choices. Namely a fully squad of squigbuggies and a bonebreaka (!) with.a kannon (!!). I would never have considered any of them as competitive choices, perhaps a single squigbuggy with the +1 to wound kustom job but not a full squad, and especially not the wagon. Nevertheless it is very nice to see them in a top placed list.
It is a shame that the kannonWAGON cannot be included in the Speed Freek AoR due to its lack of WAGON keyword, in my opinion that would be the best option for a freebooterz oriented army.
Absolutely agree with the Kannonwagon!!!
3 x RSB - If you go one detachement Speed Mob, you need a unit holding home objective. But you have just 6 FA slots and 2000p to use. Have a full RSB squad is the only option to have something at home objective that actually do at least something and use the points.
Gunwagon is pretty interesting idea. Speed Mob used to be strictly two detachement with 3 smaller or bigger squads of warbikers to SCORE and do ROADBLOCKS and LOCK IN CC. And 3 squads of such unit was almost not enough. If you go single detach, you have no space for 3 squads. Just 2 or less.
And W16 T8 M12” Gunwagon is actually prettygood as a roadblock and CC locker. Cannot do the bits but can fight much better than bikers (about 11x 2+ 9/-2/2 attacks is bloody good) and is a great distraction carnifex.
What I do different is
- 6 -> 5 kopta squad (blast, morale, hard to hide)
- Bonebreaker with Zzapgun - not a blast so can fire in CC. Pretty useless, but Kannon too and for 5p? Who cares… And gun that can do 3+D3MW damage and benefit from FB +1 to hit is a lottery than can surprise..
- Bonebreaker with Forktress for 5++. That extend the effect of him significantly!
- spare points to Big Shootas on Bonebreaker. Extend the carnifex effect and still shoot in CC
Generaly, I think that go Freebootas is possible just in single detach - you need CPs to hide Koptas.
If you want to go 2 detach, you need to go Evil Sunz for 1CP move twice for hiding of the Koptas and other nasty tricks like this.
If you check my reports here, you will see also a combinations with buggies, wazbooms, deffdreads, hell even Mega Dreads!
Where do I find your reports? Specifically the one with a MegaDred? I could totally be missing it if you posted it in this thread :|
I've been running a Mega Dread lately, but I've certainly not been popping up in tournament results! I'm pretty sure I did see one in the last few pages, I'll have a rummage and see if I can find it.
Sean Nayden 8th (between John Lennon and Mani Cheema) US Open Kansas City: Warhammer 40,000 Grand Tournament - goffs without rigz and with wagons, ghazzy and bunch of HQs
Battle Size [6CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)
Clan Kultur: Goffs
Detachment Command Cost [-3CP]
Gametype: 4. Chapter Approved: War Zone Nephilim
+ HQ +
Boss Zagstruk [6 PL, 110pts]
Warboss [5 PL, 105pts, -2CP]: 4. Brutal but Kunnin, Attack Squig, Da Killa Klaw, Kombi-skorcha, Power Klaw, Stratagem: Big Boss, Stratagem: Extra Gubbinz
Weirdboy [4 PL, 70pts]: 3. Da Jump, 4. Fists of Gork
They've been doing a lot of cool Ork model singles recently, which is nice! Not sure if its worth the price tag they usually throw on them, but it's good to see some flavorful models thrown our way.
Guitar Herork! I'm just imagining him playing through the Fire and the Flames from Dragonforce now haha.
Sadly as a limited release it’s just a display model only… but would have been cooler if this guy was an upgrade option on a Killrig/huntarig instead of wurrboy.. mad max style!!
gungo wrote: Sadly as a limited release it’s just a display model only… but would have been cooler if this guy was an upgrade option on a Killrig/huntarig instead of wurrboy.. mad max style!!
gungo wrote: Sadly as a limited release it’s just a display model only… but would have been cooler if this guy was an upgrade option on a Killrig/huntarig instead of wurrboy.. mad max style!!
i mean.. nothing stops you from doing that
I mean you can use any model but was hoping for some thematic power rifts instead of wurrboy powers heavily based on beastsnaggas..
A nice mind melting heavy metal rift aoe ork pyschic based atk,
A power ballad defensive buffing aura for orks
A speed boosting offensive buffing aura for orks
And a debuff Aoe
gungo wrote: Sadly as a limited release it’s just a display model only…
Only for those of you who refuse to use Legends units.
I mean a year ago there was a straight to legends thematic goff rocker unit dataslate and no one uses that junk… the rules were actually fun and decent too but I’m sorry legends is the place rules go to die…
I mean it partly depends on how big of a squad you are taking. Generally, I would say the Power Klaw is almost always an auto include unless you're really short on points since you have a 5 point discount and you can take it regardless of squad size. Breacha Ram and Bomb Squigs are only possible to be taken by 10+ man Kommando units if I remember correctly, so it's a bigger investment. I think personally Bomb Squigs are the only ones worth always getting for 10 man squads, just because of it's ability to plink off wounds and soften units up before getting stuck in. I feel like the Breacha Ram is a bit situational and AoC makes it less impactful than it should be.
I mean it partly depends on how big of a squad you are taking. Generally, I would say the Power Klaw is almost always an auto include unless you're really short on points since you have a 5 point discount and you can take it regardless of squad size. Breacha Ram and Bomb Squigs are only possible to be taken by 10+ man Kommando units if I remember correctly, so it's a bigger investment. I think personally Bomb Squigs are the only ones worth always getting for 10 man squads, just because of it's ability to plink off wounds and soften units up before getting stuck in. I feel like the Breacha Ram is a bit situational and AoC makes it less impactful than it should be.
I would say a Breacha Ram is definitely worthwhile if you have a handful of points spare. Otherwise, I'd say the Klaw is an auto take, and the bomb squig is a definite if you're going for a 10 man mob.
I have found myself using Burnas every now and then if i have the spare points and already have a bomb, because that way i can actually advance and throw my bomb squig.
Right now its either: Will i walk and throw a bomb, risking a longer charge, or will i advance and charge to make charging less risky, but not throw any bombs.
gungo wrote:Sadly as a limited release it’s just a display model only… but would have been cooler if this guy was an upgrade option on a Killrig/huntarig instead of wurrboy.. mad max style!!
It would be cool if he granted a second round of shooting (at -1 granted and that was before Andy Chambers ruined orks) like the Goff Rokkers originally did for a retinue.
Im a little unsure if this is a dumb question or not, but recently i started thinking, if ive been playing "Biggest and da best" the correct way.
When you have to get 2 points for having your warlord on an objective outside your deployment zone, do you have to stand there by the end of the battle round? Or is the point merely scored at the end of the battle round, and you could have been holding the objective at any given point during that battle round?
do you have to stand there by the end of the battle round?
Da Biggest and Da Best scores at the end of the round, checking to see if:
if your warlord did wounds to a character monster vehicle in melee
5 or more models killed
unit destroyed
warlord is within range of an objective marker you control not in your deployment zone
so yes, at the end of the round you must control the objective marker your WL is standing on.
Yea im glad i asked then. I have been using it wrong then. I used to just sit on the objective at the end of my own turn and then checked the +2 by the end of the battle round.
That makes it considerably harder to get +2 points for, as an enemy has the opportunity to reach the point with obsec units, if you didnt get turn 2.
well its good to know for the upcoming GT i have next week.
Thanks guys.
Anyway my GT list below. Hopefully it will go well. its a team tournament.
), and I'd rather not have to paint another twenty Gretchen if I can avoid it.
