Yea its like: What if i take the number 3, and just go insane with it?
Originally i also had only 3x3 squig riders and no squig hide tires, but in return i had a nob on smasha squig. But i dont feel like i get that much value out of him. so he was replaced with 2 more squigs and squig hide tires.
Has anyone had success running nobs as trukk boys? was thinking about trying out a squad of 10 with probably like 3 pk, 2 bc, and 5 double choppas or something.
The tournament is over and i did okay. I did things im not proud of here and there, but over all it went okay. It was a team tournament so i did have some say in what i played against, but ultimately, i had 3 victories, and 2 losses. In WTC style, one of my victories (which i won with only 5 points) became a draw. I ran Good bits and biggest and da best in all games, and mainly greentide as well, though i did run no prisoners in battle 5 against admech.
Over all feeling about Zagstrukk is, i either dont know how to use him properly or im unlucky. im not entirely sure which it is. I guess a bit of both really.
Battle 1: DG. Won 91-36 (Or 20-0) Not much to say. it was a brutal shakedown. As it often feels like with DG versus orks, it just comes down to the better player. Also Kill rigs are pretty good at absorbing attacks from DG melee infantry. Zagstrukk was trying to fly in to kill his tallyman, but failed his 6 inch charge. He got dusted off afterwards. sad.
Battle 2: Tyranids. Lost 74-84 (Or 9-11). A very narrow loss. My warlord got krumped by a juiced up Tervigon by the end so that one only netted me 8 points. If i had just remained a bit more passive i could at least have gotten 10 points. I tried to throw off 3 warriors off one of his objectives so that he would have held only 1 objective, but he threw -1 damage on tyranids, so Zaggstrukk, despite doing a good deal of damage, left a single warrior with 1 wound. Then that single warrior killed Zaggstruk. Oof. I guess if i was more experienced (i never play against tyranids) I would have known he had -1 damage. if i knew that, i would not have attempted to do it but oh well.
Battle 3: Chaos space marines, Creations of bile. won 81-76 (or a WTC style draw, 10-10). This battle is the one im most ashamed of, because apparently during my movement phase turn 1, i had a brain meltdown, and threw my warlord so far ahead, that he got destroyed by some auto wounding daemon prince who bypassed my -1 to wound and my 5+++. I knew he had him but i completely forgot about it. So even though i did win a tiny bit, i only got 4 points for biggest and da best. I dont think i have ever done anything as stupid as that before. There was no reason for my warlord to even get near that dude, i just forgot about him completely. So normally, it should have been a much larger victory, and not a WTC draw. *massive facepalm* At least Zaggstrukk did something useful this time around. He killed off a few possessed. Whether he got his points worth i dont know. I cant remember.
Battle 4: Sisters of battle. Lost 62-97 (Or 16-4). My biggest loss. I accidently pitted myself against sisters, partly because i knew the guy and he was fun to play with, and partly because the other faction i could pick to play against (Drukhari) was a faction i had previously lost 20-0 to. not the player just the faction. That was before nephilim where we had trash secondaries but all of that just really scared me. i hadnt played against drukhari a lot before. But sure, i knew Sisters would be super rough, i just hoped for a close to draw, but that didnt happen. too much shinanigans for me to remember. Zaggstrukk dealt 1 wound for 2 damage against celestine and was dusted afterwards (ofc), and i forgot about his fight last rule after i cheekily da jumped 10 beast snagga boys in to his line of repentias.
Yea... I should definitely have picked drukhari, which i know we CAN definitely play against. I was just spooked from my previous massive loss i guess. and playing someone you know is always fun.
Battle 5: Admech. Won, 94-44 (Or 19-1). This is where i ran prisoners. I have fought Admech once before only, so what they do i dont know, except shoot a lot. He had a unit of i believe, 6 shooty robot chickens that had eradication of flesh. And abhore the witch, and assassinate. So everytime he dusted off a Kill Rig, he got a whooping 9 points. Anyway, he had turn 1, dusted off my first rig, i went for a turn 1 waaagh out of somewhat desperation to get to his lines and starting krumping. Zagstrukk flew to one of his objectives and threw off the dudes standing there, netting the enemy only 1 objective for 4 points. Afterwards he wanted to shoot zaggy, but failed to kill him and didnt wanna dedicate too much fire to him, so he charged him with rust stalkers. Zaggy died, fought on death, and (after morale by the end) only 1 rust stalker remained. I guess this was the battle zaggy did his best deeds.
Another Kill rig died after my turn 2, and after that i just hid my last rig in a corner like a coward, and threw my wall of snagga boys, kommandos and squig riders at his wall of shooting infantry. in the end i had completely denied him primary points, he got 4 points turn 2 and 3 points for scanning an objective. He had 10 shooty boys left and his 6 chickens that i decided to not care about (as he had barricaded them in the corner behind his sea of soldiers). In turn 5 i had barely nothing left, but the highlight of my battle, my single 1 wound kommando no with a powerklaw, ran up and dusted off his warlord (who apparently only had 4 wounds total). That was amazing.
Anyway. that was my odd little monologue if anyone wants a read. its not very detailed but i felt like sharing it. Im still trying to become better (especially with battle 3 where i got 4 points for biggest and da best because im an absolute grot brain... F me). But even so, i had place number 44 out of 160 so im in the better half at least!. I take that as a somewhat win!
But my god i have room to grow. Both in playing capabilities but also in sheer experience. I still absolutely have no idea how my army composition should EVER win against a meta bloody rose sisters of battle composition. there is just too much in it.
flaming tadpole wrote:Has anyone had success running nobs as trukk boys? was thinking about trying out a squad of 10 with probably like 3 pk, 2 bc, and 5 double choppas or something.
I think the general consensus with Nobz is that they're in a weird limbo between Snagga Boys and MANz. They hit decently hard but they still die easy while there's lots of d2 floating around, and they cost a bit too much for what they give you. Trukk Boys MANz have a niche because they're decently durable while still hitting hard, but regular Nobs don't quite hit the mark.
There were a few tournament lists not too long ago that were running Nobs though. Try them out and report back!
Beardedragon wrote:Hey guys.
The tournament is over and i did okay.
Over all feeling about Zagstrukk is, i either dont know how to use him properly or im unlucky. im not entirely sure which it is. I guess a bit of both really.
Firstly, well done on your placing.
Secondly, I use Zagstruk like a mini-missile. Similar to how a Warboss on bike often gets used. I stick him in a trukk with my trukk boys, disembark turn one, and with that tiny bit of extra movement and a first turn Waaagh he can often kill or tag something I don't want harassing the rest of my guys. He's often charging into the same target as the trukk boys, so they normally give the extra chip damage I need or extra wounds to bog down the target.
flaming tadpole wrote: Has anyone had success running nobs as trukk boys? was thinking about trying out a squad of 10 with probably like 3 pk, 2 bc, and 5 double choppas or something.
Trukk Boyz only work competitively because they are cheap. That is it. They are so cheap in regards to what they can do and how fast they can do it that you don't really care if they die turn 2 or if your enemy has a heart attack and focus fires them down turn 1. When you start adding points to them by making them Nobz and giving them weapon loadouts...well, now you've put a lot of eggs in a rather fragile basket and now your opponent isn't really wasting effort by killing that trukk turn 1. On top of that, if you do get them into close combat, they aren't appreciably better than Boyz on a point for point basis.
10 Trukkboyz (9 and a double Choppa Nob) get you 27 attacks at S4 and 5 attacks at S5. All of that for 80pts. Your Nobz are going to run you around 200pts and you will get 9 Attacks at S10, 6 attacks at S7 and then 30 attacks at S5.
Against a Marine Profile (T4 3+ 2wound) the trukk boyz average 3.7dmg
The Trukk Nobz average 10.3(ish) dmg.
So point for point the Trukk boyz average 0.04dmg per point, the Trukk nobz average 0.05dmg per point.
And again, your opponent isn't necessarily going to target a 150pt Trukkboyz unit (70pts for trukk) but they wouldn't have a problem removing a 270pt Trukk Nobz unit, hell, even if they just pop the trukk turn 1 they have basically turned that 270pt unit into swiss cheese that can be handled by leftover bolter fire.
Over all feeling about Zagstrukk is, i either dont know how to use him properly or im unlucky. im not entirely sure which it is. I guess a bit of both really.
Firstly, well done on your placing.
Secondly, I use Zagstruk like a mini-missile. Similar to how a Warboss on bike often gets used. I stick him in a trukk with my trukk boys, disembark turn one, and with that tiny bit of extra movement and a first turn Waaagh he can often kill or tag something I don't want harassing the rest of my guys. He's often charging into the same target as the trukk boys, so they normally give the extra chip damage I need or extra wounds to bog down the target.
What afro said. That is exactly how I use him. I plop him in a transport turn 1, get him that extra 3 inches of movement and then bum rush him up the table into whatever unit I need to die or get tied up. Just remember when fielding him that he isn't the best at durability or dmg dealing. He does get 6 attacks at S9 -3 2dmg but 2dmg isn't a lot and with -1 floating around all the time its just not enough. Remember though, with him during a WAAAGH turn he gets 7 attacks, exploding 6s and S10. He also gets a 5++ and a 5+++ so he is relatively durable during a WAAAGH turn. Never expect huge things from him, but at the same time, when he does go off he can take out a tank by himself
flaming tadpole wrote: Has anyone had success running nobs as trukk boys? was thinking about trying out a squad of 10 with probably like 3 pk, 2 bc, and 5 double choppas or something.
I saw a tactic in YT video called the Ork Burrito. But you have to commit a lot to it (mostly BCs but a couple PKs sprinkled inside).
Warboss, 5 Nobz, 5 Nobz, Trukk on an objective. I think with the Freebooterz banner relic could make it work better, or just being in Death Skullz. They have to pop the trukk, then the first 5 nobz circled, then the second 5 then the warboss to clear an objective.
I just finished painting my 10th nob so I haven't tried it yet but will soon. I'm sure it's mostly a casual competitive spot and not something you will see in a UK Masters game. TBH I would recommend trying it out in about half a dozen games to see how it goes.
When charging on the waagh turn do the 4 butcha Boyz on a killrigs go up to s6 or does the +1 s for the waagh bring it up to S7. The waagh strength is +1 to the s characteristic of the model rather than the s of the attack.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Assuming they're Goff for the initial+1s
flaming tadpole wrote: Has anyone had success running nobs as trukk boys? was thinking about trying out a squad of 10 with probably like 3 pk, 2 bc, and 5 double choppas or something.
I saw a tactic in YT video called the Ork Burrito. But you have to commit a lot to it (mostly BCs but a couple PKs sprinkled inside).
Warboss, 5 Nobz, 5 Nobz, Trukk on an objective. I think with the Freebooterz banner relic could make it work better, or just being in Death Skullz. They have to pop the trukk, then the first 5 nobz circled, then the second 5 then the warboss to clear an objective.
I just finished painting my 10th nob so I haven't tried it yet but will soon. I'm sure it's mostly a casual competitive spot and not something you will see in a UK Masters game. TBH I would recommend trying it out in about half a dozen games to see how it goes.
Cheers, ya I was just fiddling around with making a nob themed list to go against one of my buddies and was struggling to figure out a way to make nobs somewhat useful.
The ork burrito seems like an interesting idea. Think I'll try and run the trukk nobs and the nob-urrito (heh) in the same game and see which throws less lol.
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CaptainO wrote: When charging on the waagh turn do the 4 butcha Boyz on a killrigs go up to s6 or does the +1 s for the waagh bring it up to S7. The waagh strength is +1 to the s characteristic of the model rather than the s of the attack.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Assuming they're Goff for the initial+1s
to my knowledge no because they're considered a weapon profile, but I'm not the most savy rules goer so could be wrong.
The strength value of butcher boys does not go up on a goff charge nor on the waaagh.
As far as i recall it says strength characteristics, which is only strength number thats displayed on the stat line with movement, wounds, weapon skill etc. and in this case, strength.
The strength value of squighog jaws or trampler squig jaws is fixed, and does not go up on a goff charge.
The strength value of butcher boys does not go up on a goff charge
Goff charge DOES increase the strength of butcher boys, WAAGH does not.
Goff:
Each time a model with this kultur makes a melee attack, if this model's unit makes a charge move, or perfformed a Heroic Intervention this turn, add 1 to the Strength characteristic of that attack.
compared to waagh:
Add 1 to the Strength and Attacks characteristic of ORKS models from your army
which would not affect the strength of any fixed S profiles like butcher boys
The strength characteristic. What ive been told is on fixed sheets such as butcher boyz, is a strength value, not strength characteristics. The strength characteristic is where you also find weapon skill wounds and ballistic skill. Neither waaagh nor goffs as far as ive been told, increases the strength of butcher boys or trampler squigs or squig jaws.
Only the actual rig, beastboss ON the squiggosaur and squighog "rider" itself gets this increase of strength as they use the actual strength characteristic which is the value on their stat bar.
Ive been told numberous times that "strength characteristic" only refers to the actual strength stat, not the fixed strength of things such as jaw strikes. They would not benefit.
Like you, i used to say that jaws would get the bonus from a goff charge, but ive been told off both at tournaments and on this specific ork forum, that that doesnt work. I still find it silly that they dont however.
Soooo the butcha boy attacks always stay at S5?!?!?
The fact there is different wording really implies the Goff trait gives +1s but if you've been picked up at tournaments there must must something to it.
They both use the word "Strength characteristics".
and as far as im aware, that only refers to the strength on the stat line with BS, WS and LD.
I was at least told both here and at a tournament that it doesnt work. But i really hope i am wrong. The dude at the tournament was another ork player, Not a TObtw so take it with a grain of salt.
The strength value of butcher boys does not go up on a goff charge
Goff charge DOES increase the strength of butcher boys, WAAGH does not.
Goff:
Each time a model with this kultur makes a melee attack, if this model's unit makes a charge move, or perfformed a Heroic Intervention this turn, add 1 to the Strength characteristic of that attack.
compared to waagh:
Add 1 to the Strength and Attacks characteristic of ORKS models from your army
which would not affect the strength of any fixed S profiles like butcher boys
My interpretation is that Goff effects the attack itself, so if it has S6 listed on the weapon profile it gets the bonus, but Waaagh effects the model and the attack is a "fixed" strength independent of the overall profile.
That's how I've been playing it, but I might be wrong.
and as far as im aware, that only refers to the strength on the stat line with BS, WS and LD.
I was at least told both here and at a tournament that it doesnt work. But i really hope i am wrong. The dude at the tournament was another ork player, Not a TObtw so take it with a grain of salt.
I asked the art of war stream on Orks yesterday and they said the butcha boys can never go above S5 which kind of puts it to bed for me.
The strength characteristic. What ive been told is on fixed sheets such as butcher boyz, is a strength value, not strength characteristics. The strength characteristic is where you also find weapon skill wounds and ballistic skill. Neither waaagh nor goffs as far as ive been told, increases the strength of butcher boys or trampler squigs or squig jaws.
Only the actual rig, beastboss ON the squiggosaur and squighog "rider" itself gets this increase of strength as they use the actual strength characteristic which is the value on their stat bar.
Ive been told numberous times that "strength characteristic" only refers to the actual strength stat, not the fixed strength of things such as jaw strikes. They would not benefit.
Like you, i used to say that jaws would get the bonus from a goff charge, but ive been told off both at tournaments and on this specific ork forum, that that doesnt work. I still find it silly that they dont however.
If you read the actual rules, though, it says that weapons have Strength characteristics. So they should be increased by the Goff ability too.
I think technically you're always wounding something with a weapons characteristic, it's just that many Melee weapons used the wielders characteristic.
Still, the goff trait specifics the characteristic of the attack, not the wielder is increased. Rather than the waaagh which says the model's strength is increased.
7. WEAPONS
In the condensed datasheets, weapons are given a number that corresponds to annotated pictures of the miniature, rather than being named. Weapons are described with the following characteristics:
Strength (S): How likely the weapon is to wound a foe. If a weapon’s Strength lists ‘User’, it is equal to the bearer’s Strength characteristic. If a weapon lists a modifier (e.g. ‘+1’ or ‘x2’), modify the bearer’s Strength characteristic as shown (e.g. if a weapon’s Strength was ‘x2’, and the bearer had a Strength of 6, that weapon has a Strength of 12).
I can't find anything that mentions set weapon strengths though, and how modifiers do and don't affect them.
If we go by the idea that a fixed weapon strength is also a strength characteristics, then both the goff ability AND the regular waagh should work here.
Because they both use the term weapon characteristics. Id say they either both work, or both not work. I have found the old discussion from a while a back, and it was Gungo and JNAProductions who back in the day advocated for it not working.I would like to hear their opinion about the matter again if they remain solute on their opinion or if it might have changed. though as they said back then, i also meet most people that say it doesnt work.
Nothing much has really changed since then, but one thing id like to point out is, that we're talking about how fixed weapon strength doesnt have any real word to describe it self.
Then we quote the: Characteristics of ‘-’ can never be modified. If a model has a Strength or Leadership characteristic of ‘-’ and that characteristic is required to resolve a rule, then substitute the model’s Toughness characteristic for that characteristic for the purposes of resolving that rule (note that the substituted characteristic still cannot be modified).
All characteristic modifiers are cumulative. Apply modifiers in the following order: division, multiplication, addition, then subtraction. Round fractions up after applying all modifiers. S, T, A and Ld can never be modified below 1. Random Move characteristics determined for whole unit each time it moves. Other random characteristics determined individually when characteristic required. Characteristic of ‘-’ can never be modified.
And due to that we say that fixed weapon strength is possibly also called strength characteristics. But its not outright spoken that its correct that the strength value of a jaws or butcher boyz is also called strength characteristics. Leaving us to wonder in this case. In most cases with warhammer, it tends to be that if its not outright called something, its not the same.
So as per the rules id still say that the jaws dont benefit from +1 strength when charging with goffs because it talks about the strength characteristics which we know belong to the stat bar wwith LD,WS and BS. That it might also refer to things such as jaws and butcher boyz, we simply dont know id say.
All in all i dont know if it gets this benefit or not from goffs, but i do know most i meet say they dont, because its not outright called "strength characteristics" but are refered to as a "strength value" instead. I also know that if i were to play it as butcher boyz would receive an increase of strength on a goff charge, i would give the same strength value to a regular waaagh, since both types talks about how they increase the strength characteristics. And if both the strength characteristics and the fixed weapon strength is also a strength characteristics, both should equally be increased in both cases.
Beardedragon wrote: If we go by the idea that a fixed weapon strength is also a strength characteristics, then both the goff ability AND the regular waagh should work here.
Because they both use the term weapon characteristics. Id say they either both work, or both not work. I have found the old discussion from a while a back, and it was Gungo and JNAProductions who back in the day advocated for it not working.I would like to hear their opinion about the matter again if they remain solute on their opinion or if it might have changed. though as they said back then, i also meet most people that say it doesnt work.
Nothing much has really changed since then, but one thing id like to point out is, that we're talking about how fixed weapon strength doesnt have any real word to describe it self.
Then we quote the:
Characteristics of ‘-’ can never be modified. If a model
has a Strength or Leadership characteristic of ‘-’ and that
characteristic is required to resolve a rule, then substitute the
model’s Toughness characteristic for that characteristic for
the purposes of resolving that rule (note that the substituted
characteristic still cannot be modified).
All characteristic modifiers are cumulative.
Apply modifiers in the following order: division,
multiplication, addition, then subtraction.
Round fractions up after applying all modifiers.
S, T, A and Ld can never be modified below 1.
Random Move characteristics determined for whole unit
each time it moves.
Other random characteristics determined individually
when characteristic required.
Characteristic of ‘-’ can never be modified.
And due to that we say that fixed weapon strength is possibly also called strength characteristics. But its not outright spoken that its correct that the strength value of a jaws or butcher boyz is also called strength characteristics. Leaving us to wonder in this case. In most cases with warhammer, it tends to be that if its not outright called something, its not the same.
So as per the rules id still say that the jaws dont benefit from +1 strength when charging with goffs because it talks about the strength characteristics which we know belong to the stat bar wwith LD,WS and BS. That it might also refer to things such as jaws and butcher boyz, we simply dont know id say.
All in all i dont know if it gets this benefit or not from goffs, but i do know most i meet say they dont, because its not outright called "strength characteristics" but are refered to as a "strength value" instead.
I also know that if i were to play it as butcher boyz would receive an increase of strength on a goff charge, i would give the same strength value to a regular waaagh, since both types talks about how they increase the strength characteristics. And if both the strength characteristics and the fixed weapon strength is also a strength characteristics, both should equally be increased in both cases.
Then the question must be asked, why even have the different wording? One referencing the strength of the model, the other referencing the strength of the attack? Do we have to assume it's GW making mistakes or an intentional difference.
As for psychic actions..
"While psychic actions are not psychic powers, they function in much the same way. For all purposes, when a unit attempts a psychic action, this is treated the same as if they were attempting to manifest a psychic power, and it triggers any rules that interact with manifesting a psychic power (e.g. rules that enable you to deny a psychic power can also be used to deny a psychic action). Note that a PSYKER can still only attempt to perform one psychic action in their Psychic phase instead of attempting to manifest any other psychic powers. Note, however, that the range of psychic actions is never modified by any such rules."
The Kill Rig states "Each time this weapon is selected to shoot with, if the bearer successfully manifested any psychic powers this turn, change this weapon’s Type to Assault D3. Each time an attack is made with this weapon, that attack automatically hits the target."
CaptainO wrote: Does a successful warp ritual attempt count for the purposes of getting D3 wurr tower shots
yes because its a psychic power, as far as i know.
Ya and there was a recent faq (that I can't find) that mentioned psychic action acting as psychic powers but that was in response to a query about whether deny abilities work.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I managed to get a ticket to LVO, dunno if anyone else here is going.
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Im hoping to bait someone into taking abhor and assassinate and then just hold back the rigs and weird boy.
I know the kff is a big spend but I've found the 100% improvement on my killrig save and the fact it works on my wazbomms makes it worthwhile.
The weird boy is there to tempt abhor, give the option of psychic secondaries and threatens da my opponents backfield with da jump (eithergrots if I'm looking to get an extra green tide or beast snaggas or kommandos to cause some trouble.
How have other people found playing Orks on player optimized terrain?
Looks like a solid list to me. I have one that's pretty much the same. A lot of matchups will unfortunately come down to whether your wazbomms can take out the opponents main AT before they go poof. You definitely got the tools to compete though.
flaming tadpole wrote: Looks like a solid list to me. I have one that's pretty much the same. A lot of matchups will unfortunately come down to whether your wazbomms can take out the opponents main AT before they go poof. You definitely got the tools to compete though.
Cheers dude. Do you also spring for a kff? I actually thought about makhari and getting a 6+++ on everything I can fit within 3" of him (surprisingly alot). Were you running you list on player optimised terrain. I've found the ability to place a forrest in a good position means 2 of my killrigs get -1.
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Tomsug wrote: Tripple Killrig and double Wazbooms! I like it!
I'm all about the KISS (Keep it simple stupid) and 6 big models (including ghaz) reduces the number of moving parts.
Opponent dependant and If I don't go for "the biggest and the best" I'd be tempted to frontline ghaz and the 3 rigs and really emphasize the threat overload.
Have people had much/any success with orks and psychic secondaries?
Cheers dude. Do you also spring for a kff? I actually thought about makhari and getting a 6+++ on everything I can fit within 3" of him (surprisingly alot). Were you running you list on player optimised terrain. I've found the ability to place a forrest in a good position means 2 of my killrigs get -1.
Ya I usually have big mek kff and then another on one of the wazbomms. I've tried running makari a couple times with it, but the 6+++ just never seems to do anything for me personally. If you had some wiggle room he'd probably be a solid choice to add, but your list already seems pretty optimized for what you wanna do so not sure what you'd really want to drop that isn't providing more value than makari.
I don't have much experience in player optimised terrain this edition, but that should hopefully help your rigs stick around a little longer with the forests like you mentioned. Plus you also got some extra cp to work with which might come in handy to put your wazbomms in a teleporta in some matchups.
The Leicester 40k Super-Major - Brian Seipp – 2nd Place
Ork hord is back again. What looks like an ordinary Goff list is actually a huge pack of old school infantry. Everything. Nobz, Meganobz, Stormboyz, Lootas, Kommandos and a lot of Grots. All in two Battlewagons and one Trukk.
This is possibly a bit dated - but can anyone explain the march of Snagga boyz? Is it just because you've got a Kill Rig (or 3) so you might as well put something in it?
Its just people seemed kind of negative when they came out - and now 10 man squads seem a staple in every other competitive Ork list I see. I'm just interested whats prompted that tip over.
Might buy some over Christmas as GW seems to have restocked the shops after running out in November.
Hell yeah, good to see some orky dominance for a change. Interesting that we're starting to see a shift more towards infantry to counteract the guard. I wonder if orks will start fitting back into that anti-meta role we're used to being. If only morale didn't absolutely us.
Tyel wrote: This is possibly a bit dated - but can anyone explain the march of Snagga boyz? Is it just because you've got a Kill Rig (or 3) so you might as well put something in it?
Its just people seemed kind of negative when they came out - and now 10 man squads seem a staple in every other competitive Ork list I see. I'm just interested whats prompted that tip over.
Might buy some over Christmas as GW seems to have restocked the shops after running out in November.
I feel like the synergy with Kill Rigs is one thing, another is that with the price drop to 10ppm, they're decent enough that they don't require a transport investment compared to Trukk Boyz, and with a built in 6+ invuln save and S5 base, it combos well with Goffs to hit the S6-7 bracket which makes them hit surprisingly hard even against some vehicles/monsters since they also get +1 to hit thanks to their baseline Beast Snaggas rule. It hasn't happened often for me, but their 2CP strat to prevent fall back on a 4+ is also potentially a good way to lock enemy units in combat, so they fill out our troops slots and combo well with Kommandos to give lots of T5 bodies that most opponents have trouble not overkilling.
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flaming tadpole wrote: Hell yeah, good to see some orky dominance for a change. Interesting that we're starting to see a shift more towards infantry to counteract the guard. I wonder if orks will start fitting back into that anti-meta role we're used to being. If only morale didn't absolutely us.
Yeah, if only mob rule were actually relevant this edition unfortunately, or if Warbosses/Nobz did their actual job and helped with morale for MOB units in a meaningful way again rather than just be beatstick units.
Price drop and the minimal upgrade cost over boyz.. made snagga better.. basically boys are pretty bad offensively and snaggas make them at least a bit more threatening with the str6+ mass attacks (also decent vs the current vehicle/monster meta). This gave snagga a role…
Bad units can still have a strong role and still be bad… case in point Gretchin.. still one of the worst units in game. Yet are massively important now to win because they give you easy get the good bit mission points.
I have a 1250 pt. casual game against Harlequins Saturday, Matched Play, Chapter Approved w/ 4 objectives (keeping it simple). I almost never get to play full games of 40k, so I'd appreciate any advice you more experienced warbosses may have to offer. My list and planned batlefield roles are as follows:
Spoiler:
Battalion Detachment, Deathskullz (non-negotiable, my boyz are all painted blue and white, and I'm a WYSIWYG kind of dood)
Warboss w/ a klaw, 'Ard as Nails, and Super Cybork Body (I have some serious survivability issues 'cause the extent of my strategic ability tends to be "Get Stuck In Lads, WAAAGH!, but maybe both is overkill?) - Plan is to have him lead a 10-man barebones mob of snaggas on foot into cc as quickly as possible
->Beast snaggas - stick with the warboss, get stuck in
->Painboy - move up w/ da Boss and his mob of snaggas to improve their survivability
Weirdboy w/ Da Jump, Fists of Gork - mostly I'm taking him to deny my opponent's psychic powers, but as long as I have him, he gets to Da Jump a barebones squad of shoota boys either onto a midfield objective or into the opponent's backfield if he's not careful about his unit placement.
->Barebones shoota boyz mob - get Da Jumped somewhere useful
Barebones slugga boyz mob - advance full speed in a trukk, divert enemy fire and if they survive turn one, get stuck in
2x 5-man kommandos mobs barebones, but each nob gets a klaw - sit on objectives
Tankbustas + 1 bomb squig - light up vehicles (do harleys even have vehicles?) or high ap targets from afar
Barebones Deffkoptas mob (3 koptas) - harass enemy units, make a nuisance of themselves
Nob on Smasha Squig w/ Beasthide Mantle and Squighog Boyz squad + 1 bomb squig - get stuck in (did I mention this is the exent of my tactical depth?). Last match I played, these were the only unit that was really putting in any kind of hurt.
Flash gitz (Kaptin has a gitfinda) - Long range anti-infantry and medium sized targets, camp in cover somewhere and snipe
gungo wrote: I mean orks have a safety net for that with the careen strat… did you not have 1cp? Edit: sorry 2cp it’s titantic
Nah i didnt. because i was making a fun list so i started with 0 CP. This was in no way a competitive battle. But even if i did it would still hit something because the model is massive, like 4 inches wide, and then 6 inch explosion radius on all sides essentially turns it in to a 16 inch diameter of destruction. thats difficult to avoid unless you put it at the side.
And sure i could have done that. I did mess up, but its times like these where i wonder why there isnt a mortal wounds cap on explosions from vehicles.
Mind you i rolled very hot on the explosions, 5 dead kommandos, 6 dead stormboyz, and 5 dead grots etc. And then i had to take leadership tests which also removed a few more models.
Damit dice, roll low not high right now
Anyway. The lack of obscurring on our lords of war when we dont even have an invul save, makes me not really like them. at least others can make saves, but if you are hit by multi meltas then our 3+ save doesnt work, and if most walls are made up with windows then you cant really hide either.
Hey bud, been out of the hobby for a minute. Got head hunted by a big company in a major city but thanks to the Housing market being insane right now I'm commuting about 5 hours a day, working 9 hours a day and add in sleep and spending time with the kids...not much time left over for Da Boyz. Haven't even had a chance to get to a Local tournament let alone a GT since my last GT many months ago!
Tyel wrote: This is possibly a bit dated - but can anyone explain the march of Snagga boyz? Is it just because you've got a Kill Rig (or 3) so you might as well put something in it?
Its just people seemed kind of negative when they came out - and now 10 man squads seem a staple in every other competitive Ork list I see. I'm just interested whats prompted that tip over.
Might buy some over Christmas as GW seems to have restocked the shops after running out in November.
Synergy with the killrigs is important but they also hit a niche in many lists right now due to the meta. Its a rare game where my opponent isn't bringing at least 4-8 monsters/vehicles. So, you pop the WAAAGH, get them into CC and they are hitting on 2s wounding T7 on 4s, and the Nob is wounding on 3s. Not great for 10ppm but on that WAAAGH turn they are arguably some of the best troops in the game.
You also have to remember that a Killrig wants to be as close to the enemy as possible since its best psychic power is Frazzle and since its primary weapon is short ranged. Drive the killrig up turn 1 (12+D6 inches because you don't care about -1 to shoot) Turn 2 you hop out 3, move 5, advance D6 and charge 2D6 giving you an AVERAGE charge range turn 2 of 34inches.
And of course, design wise their only downside is the fact that they are monopose which kind of bores me but they do look fantastic...and since you'll never field them except in squads of 10 its not ....terrible.
What's the best unit for dealing with terminators? Should I throw some meganobs at them? Maybe a deff dread or two? Or just hit them with some big guns of some kind?
Gulgog TufToof wrote: I have a 1250 pt. casual game against Harlequins Saturday, Matched Play, Chapter Approved w/ 4 objectives (keeping it simple). I almost never get to play full games of 40k, so I'd appreciate any advice you more experienced warbosses may have to offer. My list and planned batlefield roles are as follows:
Spoiler:
Battalion Detachment, Deathskullz (non-negotiable, my boyz are all painted blue and white, and I'm a WYSIWYG kind of dood)
Warboss w/ a klaw, 'Ard as Nails, and Super Cybork Body (I have some serious survivability issues 'cause the extent of my strategic ability tends to be "Get Stuck In Lads, WAAAGH!, but maybe both is overkill?) - Plan is to have him lead a 10-man barebones mob of snaggas on foot into cc as quickly as possible
->Beast snaggas - stick with the warboss, get stuck in
->Painboy - move up w/ da Boss and his mob of snaggas to improve their survivability
Weirdboy w/ Da Jump, Fists of Gork - mostly I'm taking him to deny my opponent's psychic powers, but as long as I have him, he gets to Da Jump a barebones squad of shoota boys either onto a midfield objective or into the opponent's backfield if he's not careful about his unit placement.
->Barebones shoota boyz mob - get Da Jumped somewhere useful
Barebones slugga boyz mob - advance full speed in a trukk, divert enemy fire and if they survive turn one, get stuck in
2x 5-man kommandos mobs barebones, but each nob gets a klaw - sit on objectives
Tankbustas + 1 bomb squig - light up vehicles (do harleys even have vehicles?) or high ap targets from afar
Barebones Deffkoptas mob (3 koptas) - harass enemy units, make a nuisance of themselves
Nob on Smasha Squig w/ Beasthide Mantle and Squighog Boyz squad + 1 bomb squig - get stuck in (did I mention this is the exent of my tactical depth?). Last match I played, these were the only unit that was really putting in any kind of hurt.
Flash gitz (Kaptin has a gitfinda) - Long range anti-infantry and medium sized targets, camp in cover somewhere and snipe
Thoughts? Thanks!
Hey Gulgog, i been playing a good amount of 1000pts sets and i can give you some feedback, bare in mind, some things come from personal opinion or experience so their not exactly competitive since 1000pts bracket is an entire different game, i mostly play against Tau :
1. How do you manage to have a trait and a relic on boss? By the nephelim rules, after buying a patrol your down to 1cp, you might want to rethink that, unless your playing with 2000pts rules?
2. I haven't tried out beast snaggas, but in 1000pts calls for hyper point efficiency, currently i am leaning on nobz and they have come with pleasant surprises, i generally use them as boys, with their profile at 85pts with chopas and decent durability, they have proven my best choice, also less moral prone, in addition i can give them up to 3 claws and with your boss that's a paltry 109pts hitting on 3, but since you mentioned kommandos i would say kommandos all the way, max them out, premove plus 1 claw and breach is amazing, give them squig bombs and you can shot characters in shooting phase, i really want to buy the models but their out of stock
3.I have trouble justifying 70pts for the painboy, it's not efficient, 15more pts gives me another squad, 10 more another squad of boys
4.Weirdboy is nice, missing the model, but it opens up some really nice secondaries!
5.Sorry, but from my experience boys are not worth the points, unless their truckboys, shooting on 5 with no AP is barely going to do a dent, even the the chopas ones haven't been cutting it and moral is a plague... the unit that has been consistently proving to me in shooting is the rukatruck squig buggy with nitro squids, amazing platform provides at least 5 wound per round and pays for itself in 2 or 3 turns if i am not and idiot with it(which i usually am!)
6.Boys in truck are best boys, 'nought said 7.Tankbustas will swing a lot, since their footslogging and the weapon is heavy, most of the time you will be shooting on 5, amazing when they hit, if they hit, in truth, unreliable, i would say their better off in a truck or just get some koptas, i do not have the models, but i have issues justifying them outside the hammer double squig combo used on one tournament... i think i would pick mek unit for 40pt's and it would be better. not much experience but for 85pt's it needs to carry it's weight.
8. koptas look good for me, please do tell me how they went for you, since i am considering adding them to my army.
9.No idea how you have the CP to add an extra relic to the smasha squig, but i know squig boys are amazing and currently waiting on models
10. Flash gitz sufer same issue of Tankbustas, swingy at best, unreliable in my opinion. At 125pts? Yeah those mek guns look a lot better.
Final considerations, consider adding a group of 2 grots, their secondary is amazing!
Well... take my opinion with a bucket of salt, most of the guy's here will give you an ample analysis and good description of the units, still it's up to you how you use them and play, some unit's might be better for your style then other's, even if their meta currently.
What's the best unit for dealing with terminators? Should I throw some meganobs at them? Maybe a deff dread or two? Or just hit them with some big guns of some kind?
Bear in mind that i play an actual Grot army. Its extremely heavy on vehicle units & fairs poorly in CC....
So, like all threats my Grots face, I shoot them with lots of KMB armed Grot tanks/Grot Mega-Tanks & sometimes a Wazbomb.
I prefer not to engage them in melee at all.
What's the best unit for dealing with terminators? Should I throw some meganobs at them? Maybe a deff dread or two? Or just hit them with some big guns of some kind?
It kind of depends on the type of terminators you're dealing with (i.e.g regular guys? Deathwing Knights?, which chapter, etc.) but for the most part, anything that causes mortal wounds to bypass their armour/invuln save and flat 3 damage weaponry is ideal against them. Unfortunately, armour of contempt makes them very tanky, so ideally you want to have a speedwaaagh! going on, with stuff like rokkit launcha deffkoptas being mobile enough to shoot and kite them, especially if you're Evil Sunz with their strat or Speed Mob with Attack Out of Da Sun. The Wazbom Blastajet during a WAAAGH! is respectable as well, and is mostly untouchable to them besides the ones that tote the cyclone missile launcher.
I would hesitate to engage with them in CC if at all possible until there's only a few guys left, because we trade poorly with them given the amount of buffs they can stack on terminators and all it takes is you whiffing on your attacks to get creamed in return. Deff Dreadz have too few attacks in my opinion. Meganobz aren't bad, but they kind of rely on you having to take a Warboss with them to buff their hit rolls and then spending 2CP on hit em Harder to guarantee the extra damage, which is probably your best bet if you must engage them in CC but then it inflates a lot of the cost of handling them and works into the marine's player of engaging on their terms. I would avoid them and try to prevent giving them easy charges while plinking away at the unit until you can counter attack if needed.
What's the best unit for dealing with terminators? Should I throw some meganobs at them? Maybe a deff dread or two? Or just hit them with some big guns of some kind?
I use a combination of Kustom Mega Kannons, Hit 'Em Harder Meganobz, Ghaz, Beastboss on Squigosaur, Mega Dread and massed Squighogs to get rid of them on the rare occasion I face them. That and a small fleet of bomb squigs.
You either want to go for MWs, high quality attacks like rokkits, KMKs, Wazbomms, etc, or absolutely drown them in medium quality attacks. The old days of massed boys won't cut it unless you have no other options.
If you want to go for volume of attacks, MANz or Squighogs are the minimum of attack quality you should be looking at IMO.
What's the best unit for dealing with terminators? Should I throw some meganobs at them? Maybe a deff dread or two? Or just hit them with some big guns of some kind?
I use a combination of Kustom Mega Kannons, Hit 'Em Harder Meganobz, Ghaz, Beastboss on Squigosaur, Mega Dread and massed Squighogs to get rid of them on the rare occasion I face them. That and a small fleet of bomb squigs.
You either want to go for MWs, high quality attacks like rokkits, KMKs, Wazbomms, etc, or absolutely drown them in medium quality attacks. The old days of massed boys won't cut it unless you have no other options.
If you want to go for volume of attacks, MANz or Squighogs are the minimum of attack quality you should be looking at IMO.
To add to this, Mega Nobz are actually pretty good when dealing with specifically chaos terminators i believe.
Since they can do so that you can only hit on 4s (which MANZ already only do so no real loss of hits) and they get -1 to wound against them (you would wound them in 3+ in that case) that makes em pretty decent with the +1 damage stratagem. Even if they give them +1 toughness to 5, you would still normally wound them on 2s (+3 when -1 to wound) because they hit with strength 10 by standard, where as other choices, like squighogs would only wound them on 3s, going up to 4s with -1 to wound, if they cast the +1 to toughness. Which they often do.
Compared to many of our other choices that would normally only wound on a +3 before the modifier that now wounds on a +4.
Personally im not really much of a mega nob fan as i feel like they are not good enough for what they are designed to do, and im currently running 3 kill rigs so i get decent amount of damage 3 values.
Id also like to retract something i said earlier about waaaghs and goff charges when talking about strength characteristics.
There totally is a difference even though i said there werent. Goff should increase the strength characteristics of a squig jaw, but regular waaghs do not. Also, we CAN call squig jaws strength value a strength characteristics, because the thousand sons psychic power, Pyric Flux (i think its called) increases the strength characteristics of warpflamers and other weapons. so clearly "strength characteristics" is NOT just a value for the stat bar with LD, WS and BS.
Though i think a power has to specifically call out what it increases the strength characteristics of, for it to benefit anything other than the stat bar.
So a Goff charge should make jaws go up to str 7, and squiggosaur jaws up to 8.
What's the best unit for dealing with terminators? Should I throw some meganobs at them? Maybe a deff dread or two? Or just hit them with some big guns of some kind?
Troll them. Roadblock. Fast cheap units park 1,1” in front of them and block their movement. Be aware of HI.
Let them stuck and score around. Play for points. Fortunately, it' s hard to score high with one castle sitting in his half of the table.
Terminators have been designed to be hard to kill. Don' t play their game unless necessary.
And if necessary, try to kill the support characters first. Most of the Terminator castles is based around cca 1-3 support characters giving them FNP etc. Kill them first.
My Speedmob solution was 5 kopta squad Ramming Speed + Crash them + 45 CC attacks to their medic guy and fly away.
Hey bud, been out of the hobby for a minute. Got head hunted by a big company in a major city but thanks to the Housing market being insane right now I'm commuting about 5 hours a day, working 9 hours a day and add in sleep and spending time with the kids...not much time left over for Da Boyz. Haven't even had a chance to get to a Local tournament let alone a GT since my last GT many months ago!
Tss tell me about it. I haven' t played a single mission in current mission pack
What's the best unit for dealing with terminators? Should I throw some meganobs at them? Maybe a deff dread or two? Or just hit them with some big guns of some kind?
I use a combination of Kustom Mega Kannons, Hit 'Em Harder Meganobz, Ghaz, Beastboss on Squigosaur, Mega Dread and massed Squighogs to get rid of them on the rare occasion I face them. That and a small fleet of bomb squigs.
You either want to go for MWs, high quality attacks like rokkits, KMKs, Wazbomms, etc, or absolutely drown them in medium quality attacks. The old days of massed boys won't cut it unless you have no other options.
If you want to go for volume of attacks, MANz or Squighogs are the minimum of attack quality you should be looking at IMO.
To add to this, Mega Nobz are actually pretty good when dealing with specifically chaos terminators i believe.
Since they can do so that you can only hit on 4s (which MANZ already only do so no real loss of hits) and they get -1 to wound against them (you would wound them in 3+ in that case) that makes em pretty decent with the +1 damage stratagem. Even if they give them +1 toughness to 5, you would still normally wound them on 2s (+3 when -1 to wound) because they hit with strength 10 by standard, where as other choices, like squighogs would only wound them on 3s, going up to 4s with -1 to wound, if they cast the +1 to toughness. Which they often do.
Compared to many of our other choices that would normally only wound on a +3 before the modifier that now wounds on a +4.
Personally im not really much of a mega nob fan as i feel like they are not good enough for what they are designed to do, and im currently running 3 kill rigs so i get decent amount of damage 3 values.
Id also like to retract something i said earlier about waaaghs and goff charges when talking about strength characteristics.
There totally is a difference even though i said there werent. Goff should increase the strength characteristics of a squig jaw, but regular waaghs do not. Also, we CAN call squig jaws strength value a strength characteristics, because the thousand sons psychic power, Pyric Flux (i think its called) increases the strength characteristics of warpflamers and other weapons. so clearly "strength characteristics" is NOT just a value for the stat bar with LD, WS and BS.
Though i think a power has to specifically call out what it increases the strength characteristics of, for it to benefit anything other than the stat bar.
So a Goff charge should make jaws go up to str 7, and squiggosaur jaws up to 8.
It's weird right? I chalk it up to GWs inability to be consistent, even within a single bloody codex. We never know if different wording is intentional or not.
What's the best unit for dealing with terminators? Should I throw some meganobs at them? Maybe a deff dread or two? Or just hit them with some big guns of some kind?
Troll them. Roadblock. Fast cheap units park 1,1” in front of them and block their movement. Be aware of HI.
Let them stuck and score around. Play for points. Fortunately, it' s hard to score high with one castle sitting in his half of the table.
Terminators have been designed to be hard to kill. Don' t play their game unless necessary.
And if necessary, try to kill the support characters first. Most of the Terminator castles is based around cca 1-3 support characters giving them FNP etc. Kill them first.
My Speedmob solution was 5 kopta squad Ramming Speed + Crash them + 45 CC attacks to their medic guy and fly away.
Hey bud, been out of the hobby for a minute. Got head hunted by a big company in a major city but thanks to the Housing market being insane right now I'm commuting about 5 hours a day, working 9 hours a day and add in sleep and spending time with the kids...not much time left over for Da Boyz. Haven't even had a chance to get to a Local tournament let alone a GT since my last GT many months ago!
Tss tell me about it. I haven' t played a single mission in current mission pack
I am looking for a similar tactic versus tau crisis suits, the issue i have is due to it's letality i have issues having proper distraction. So far the best i managed was a 3man squad of bikes with inbuilt -1 to hit.
The other prob is removing them since their usually covered in shield drones, their tough to remove and being battle suits, they shoot in melee... the best result was overloading them and MW on top to secure kills. I generally rush my Gaz into them to deny them anything..
Any efficient solution or tactics you guy's use? Looking for something point efficient since i play 1000pts games.
The Leicester 40k Super-Major - Brian Seipp – 2nd Place
Ork hord is back again. What looks like an ordinary Goff list is actually a huge pack of old school infantry. Everything. Nobz, Meganobz, Stormboyz, Lootas, Kommandos and a lot of Grots. All in two Battlewagons and one Trukk.
Not a single new squig toy etc.
Love this one. Goff Claw Trukk Boy Nobz is hilarious as a joke unit that actually work in this context.
Could see Kill Tank lists make a resurgence? They'd be in-detachment so they'd get kulturs, no CP to field them. Or has the statline creep had more of an impact on their viability than the issues with fitting them into CP budgets?
To me, Heroic Support reads as you can take two Squigosaurs for only one CP, which might make a nice alternative to taking Ghaz if you just want a beatstick character.
Also, being able to take six of most slots for no CP is big. I'm liable to go super alpha strike and replace all of my heavy support slots with Deffkoptas and Scrapjets to go with my Kommando/Squighog rush list.
Madjob wrote: Could see Kill Tank lists make a resurgence? They'd be in-detachment so they'd get kulturs, no CP to field them. Or has the statline creep had more of an impact on their viability than the issues with fitting them into CP budgets?
I think they're viable(ish), but they've definitely been power crept.
Afrodactyl wrote: To me, Heroic Support reads as you can take two Squigosaurs for only one CP, which might make a nice alternative to taking Ghaz if you just want a beatstick character.
Also, being able to take six of most slots for no CP is big. I'm liable to go super alpha strike and replace all of my heavy support slots with Deffkoptas and Scrapjets to go with my Kommando/Squighog rush list.
Assuming I'm reading it correctly.
Don’t jump the gun here. A barebones squigboss is only ok. And even the orks best melee threats are only good. We are still limited by tile of 3 and our best lists only play to board pressure and decent secondary objectives. With speedmob going away and still no ability to mix clans not a whole lot will change competitively. I hope they don’t take away get the good bits or it’s going to hurt.
Barebones yes, but they do have access to the goff big killa boss(Or brutal but Kunnin I forget)/killchoppa combo and access to some killy stratagems that do put them in a good position. Like one shotting a knight position.
Having a killy boss and a tough boss is appealing.
cody.d. wrote: Barebones yes, but they do have access to the goff big killa boss(Or brutal but Kunnin I forget)/killchoppa combo and access to some killy stratagems that do put them in a good position. Like one shotting a knight position.
Having a killy boss and a tough boss is appealing.
Yeah, I always thought if you're going for double Squigbosses you for the classic Ard as Nails and Beasthide Mantle combo for one and the BBK and Killchoppa for the other.
I think that it's going to be good for us that we don't have to worry about troops, though it does partly depend on our secondaries. I can see the mass infantry list of stormboyz and kommandos taking advantage of this and Deathskullz coming more to the fore over Goffs for this style to have enough obsec bodies.
With the release of Arks, and the new formation, are 'nauts more interesting? I always felt that the cp tax to bring them made them not worth it. Sure for fun games, why not. But my meta is pretty competitive and I can't play that often. I just don't have the time to bring something that just wasn't that good.(same with freebooters)
Domandi wrote: With the release of Arks, and the new formation, are 'nauts more interesting? I always felt that the cp tax to bring them made them not worth it. Sure for fun games, why not. But my meta is pretty competitive and I can't play that often. I just don't have the time to bring something that just wasn't that good.(same with freebooters)
No. They're fundamentally just not good even if you disregard the baseline detachment rules not favouring super heavies. They're still way too expensive for what they bring since their damage output is meh, they're slow, and are very weak to enemy shooting due to not being able to be obscured, especially since they dont have ramshackle for some asinine reason. Their large footprint also makes it hard for them in certain maps depending on how the terrain is set up, so they can be screened or bottlenecked. Throw in the lack of synergy and support with the rest of the army and the majority of our walkers just dont make the cut. They really should have implemented Meks and Big Meks to do more with vehicles besides healing them, since as it is, DreadWAAAAGH as an archetype is nonexistent.
cody.d. wrote: Barebones yes, but they do have access to the goff big killa boss(Or brutal but Kunnin I forget)/killchoppa combo and access to some killy stratagems that do put them in a good position. Like one shotting a knight position.
Having a killy boss and a tough boss is appealing.
Yeah, I always thought if you're going for double Squigbosses you for the classic Ard as Nails and Beasthide Mantle combo for one and the BBK and Killchoppa for the other.
I think that it's going to be good for us that we don't have to worry about troops, though it does partly depend on our secondaries. I can see the mass infantry list of stormboyz and kommandos taking advantage of this and Deathskullz coming more to the fore over Goffs for this style to have enough obsec bodies.
This was my line of thinking, I should have elaborated. If the Nails/Mantle boss is your warlord, then a BBK/Killchoppa boss is pretty good for just being a melee monster. It also brings back the BBK/Killa Klaw boss as a missile character without sacrificing loads of CP or warlord durability, without spending a buttload of points.
I agree on the Deathskulls point, they've definitely had a boost as well.
Domandi wrote:With the release of Arks, and the new formation, are 'nauts more interesting? I always felt that the cp tax to bring them made them not worth it. Sure for fun games, why not. But my meta is pretty competitive and I can't play that often. I just don't have the time to bring something that just wasn't that good.(same with freebooters)
They're certainly more viable, but still not actually viable in the grand scheme of things. Still too big, too expensive, too easy to kill for what you spend on them, and don't do quite enough damage for nearly Knight points costs.
Massed dreads might become something doable. Spend a thousand points on dreads, kans and characters, then the rest is cheap ObSec infantry.
cody.d. wrote: Barebones yes, but they do have access to the goff big killa boss(Or brutal but Kunnin I forget)/killchoppa combo and access to some killy stratagems that do put them in a good position. Like one shotting a knight position.
Having a killy boss and a tough boss is appealing.
Yeah, I always thought if you're going for double Squigbosses you for the classic Ard as Nails and Beasthide Mantle combo for one and the BBK and Killchoppa for the other.
I think that it's going to be good for us that we don't have to worry about troops, though it does partly depend on our secondaries. I can see the mass infantry list of stormboyz and kommandos taking advantage of this and Deathskullz coming more to the fore over Goffs for this style to have enough obsec bodies.
2 relics, 2 warlord traits and a strat to take 2 warbosses is at least 5cp Seems alot for a second warboss.
Madjob wrote: Could see Kill Tank lists make a resurgence? They'd be in-detachment so they'd get kulturs, no CP to field them. Or has the statline creep had more of an impact on their viability than the issues with fitting them into CP budgets?
i recently used one at a local tournament.
Kill tanks arent really that great. I mean, they are probably some of our best lords of war choices, but they arent amazing in any way. In fact, none of our lords of war choices are. They dont get obscurring, they are rather large, so in the case that you do explode, odds are, you will hit some of your own units for D6 mortal wounds, and careen takes 2CP for titanic, not 1.
In most cases, one fares better with a battlewagon if you wanted them for transports. And if you wanted them as a shooting platform id say they dont have enough dakka for a shooting platform.
However its worth looking in to with these changes.
However, it was a really sweet dream yesterday about new DreadMob with walkers noving over units, moving twice, have twice as much dakka and cost the half… I love the models and want to paint them years already! Just waiting for the right opportunity…
Assuming that the changes are going to work in the way we think they will, I'm going to be running something like the list below.
Leaning heavily into alpha strike, making use of Great Waaagh, and relying on grots and the small kommando unit to score points. Mega Dread either runs up the board if the terrain suits or gets put in reserves/tellyporta.
Spoiler:
Clan Kultur: Goffs
+ HQ +
Beastboss on Squigosaur [9 PL, -2CP, 160pts]: 3. 'Ard as Nails, Beasthide Mantle, Stratagem: Big Boss, Stratagem: Extra Gubbinz
All LoW got slightly better with the Ark detachment since now theres no cp cost and they get kultures (to this day still the overall biggest gripe i had with LoWs....they felt like they expected to have kulture rules but were not allowed w/o 3 of them which most armies cannot do) Nauts still suck. 350/385pts (realistically 380/385 because of kff) for a mork/gork which is a 24w T8 3+ at best a 6+++ invul, no fancy rules and only moderately killy. Mork hits on 5s despite Meks all getting BS4+ and its a Mek vehicle, no mass reroll available, and its gun is decent but not 380pts decent. Gork at least fires 30 shots to offset its BS5 and its melee tends to delete whatever it does catch, but it also degrades so once it gets hurt a little suddenly its not likely to delete whatever it catches (and less likely to catch as its slower)
I think the Nauts could get a 75pt cut and we'd still be debating on using them or not. Very few ork things are deadly on their own and rely on sheer numbers, but the nauts cannot be spammed cause theyre so damn expensive.
Killtanks on the other hand....i think a casual killtank is in the menu for now (unless that upcoming datasheet jumps all LoW cost like crazy to "compensate" for the kulture rules and cp removal)
ork troops actually do work. the one thing that IS interesting out of all of this to me is a kill tank with giga shoota. 275 points for alot of dakka thats effectively always hitting on 4s
Giga shootas are pretty bad though unless your clearing out guard platoons, which albeit could be nice if guard become the dominant meta. A triple killtank filled with Manz rush list could be fun to play.
Personally I’m going to be trying out some deff dread and killa kan spam lists
cody.d. wrote: Barebones yes, but they do have access to the goff big killa boss(Or brutal but Kunnin I forget)/killchoppa combo and access to some killy stratagems that do put them in a good position. Like one shotting a knight position.
Having a killy boss and a tough boss is appealing.
Yeah, I always thought if you're going for double Squigbosses you for the classic Ard as Nails and Beasthide Mantle combo for one and the BBK and Killchoppa for the other.
I think that it's going to be good for us that we don't have to worry about troops, though it does partly depend on our secondaries. I can see the mass infantry list of stormboyz and kommandos taking advantage of this and Deathskullz coming more to the fore over Goffs for this style to have enough obsec bodies.
2 relics, 2 warlord traits and a strat to take 2 warbosses is at least 5cp Seems alot for a second warboss.
True, though to be fair, it's not like we use the CP for much on strats to begin with barring Ramming Speed and a few of the core Rulebook strats.
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flaming tadpole wrote: Giga shootas are pretty bad though unless your clearing out guard platoons, which albeit could be nice if guard become the dominant meta. A triple killtank filled with Manz rush list could be fun to play.
Personally I’m going to be trying out some deff dread and killa kan spam lists
Yeah, unfortunately with AoC still being a thing, the Giga Shoota just doesn't cut the mustard, especially when you factor how it can effectively become AP0 against units in cover.
Jidmah wrote: There are some DG leaks on reddit claiming that AoC will be going away with the next dataslate as it's an universally hated rule.
highly doubt the leaks are true. there were leaks before the last dataslate and they were all bunk too because none of this goes to print/early release for marketing etc.
edit: welp this aged poorly based on the DoG stream
i'd be willing to eat my shoe if they actually remove that rule.
The concept is fine, i wouldnt be upset if like Terminators had that mechanic or a Landraider, but the entire army...just...cmon...
Its honestly one of the main reasons i havnt even been playing orks much lately because i actually dont like playing goff and everything else just gets shafted by AoC and i mostly face marines.
Jidmah wrote: There are some DG leaks on reddit claiming that AoC will be going away with the next dataslate as it's an universally hated rule.
highly doubt the leaks are true. there were leaks before the last dataslate and they were all bunk too because none of this goes to print/early release for marketing etc.
I mean it got pulled from guard and some chaos recent books.
It would be good if they, at the very least, had a more nuanced approach where it wasn't the entire army and rather a few units and that it didn't stack with cover, since that's what really makes the AP requirement of TAC list become ridiculous because you need it to even make sure you can force them to take saves less than 2+ or 3+.
Vineheart01 wrote: i'd be willing to eat my shoe if they actually remove that rule.
The concept is fine, i wouldnt be upset if like Terminators had that mechanic or a Landraider, but the entire army...just...cmon...
Its honestly one of the main reasons i havnt even been playing orks much lately because i actually dont like playing goff and everything else just gets shafted by AoC and i mostly face marines.
Same here, these days I only bring out orks when I know I'm not playing against an AoC army. The rule might not be that powerful mathmatically, but when you have terminators taking 2+ saves against rokkits, it just sucks all the fun out of the game.
Jidmah wrote: There are some DG leaks on reddit claiming that AoC will be going away with the next dataslate as it's an universally hated rule.
highly doubt the leaks are true. there were leaks before the last dataslate and they were all bunk too because none of this goes to print/early release for marketing etc.
Rumour has it that Nobz will be getting either cheaper wargear or free wargear.
With free wargear I think they might become a viable, if niche, unit. In particular, filling the same role as trukk boys but actually aiming to do damage rather than bogging a unit down. Nobz main downsides are durability per point and damage per point, being not quite as good as either MANz as a brawler unit, or boys as a throwaway.
However, if their wargear becomes free, then they can get a turn one charge as trukk boys which effectively eliminates their fragility, and still hit decently hard with massed Klaw attacks.
From a mob of ten, 30 PK attacks and 10 choppa attacks before any Kultur or Waaagh bonuses is pretty darn good when you consider its only 90 points more than a barebones boys mob, and similar points of MANz would get half the PK attacks, but would have access to Hit Em Harder for better quality of attacks.
This is all speculation based on rumours, but definitely food for thought.
But if free weapon upgrades... then the newly made double kill saw nobz i just made will come in handy as trukkboyz.
evil suns 10 trukk nobz with double kill saws for 240 points including the trukk...thats as brutal as death company with hammers...flanked by a squad of bikers and bikerboss with rezmekkas redder paint for orks only source of fight last. 580 points in total and 1 cp for that, 2 if you want to make the boss more likely to live w/ ard as nails. pretty gnarly. just pray you go first or they lack S8 shooting
But if free weapon upgrades... then the newly made double kill saw nobz i just made will come in handy as trukkboyz.
evil suns 10 trukk nobz with double kill saws for 240 points including the trukk...thats as brutal as death company with hammers...flanked by a squad of bikers and bikerboss with rezmekkas redder paint for orks only source of fight last. 580 points in total and 1 cp for that, 2 if you want to make the boss more likely to live w/ ard as nails. pretty gnarly. just pray you go first or they lack S8 shooting
As Goffs you can put them alongside Zagstruk (who can go in the trukk) or a Killa Klaw Bikerboss and really flatten something turn one
I was actually having thoughts about the whole free weapon upgrades thing before all this became a potential truth.
Though admittedly, i thought free weapons upgrades should be given to Nobz AND boyz minimum.
That way regular boyz would be a more interesting choice and more versatile choice over the beast snagga boys, which are surperior to regular boyz atm. And ofc make Nobz actually viable. But of course if nobz get free or cheaper upgrades, maybe boy nobz will too.
I’ve been trying Orks on and off all of 9th and seem to have poor results. I feel like my units are made of wet paper and hit like a feather. I don’t feel like I can ever make a meaningful dent in my opponents armies and I end up being tables relatively quickly.
Can you all provide some tips/tricks for alleviating these frustrations? I love ork models and lore and kitbashing but I hate being annihilated
I’ve been trying Orks on and off all of 9th and seem to have poor results. I feel like my units are made of wet paper and hit like a feather. I don’t feel like I can ever make a meaningful dent in my opponents armies and I end up being tables relatively quickly.
Can you all provide some tips/tricks for alleviating these frustrations? I love ork models and lore and kitbashing but I hate being annihilated
It kinda depends on what you have been using vs what you are fighting. If you have been going against marines and other AoC armies, then you are in luck. Armor of contempt is going away soon so now we might be able to kill them in combat. Many people tend to think that orks just run forward, charge, then kill whatever... sadly this isn't very true. You have to make sure your are lining up favorable charges. You have to leave units back for counter charges.
Can you give us an example of the armies you are bringing? What kulture and so on?
I’ve been trying Orks on and off all of 9th and seem to have poor results. I feel like my units are made of wet paper and hit like a feather. I don’t feel like I can ever make a meaningful dent in my opponents armies and I end up being tables relatively quickly.
Can you all provide some tips/tricks for alleviating these frustrations? I love ork models and lore and kitbashing but I hate being annihilated
I've found the main thing with Orks is that maneuvering is key. As Domandi said, it's not always about rushing forward and charging, unless you can do it relatively unscathed and if its pertinent to the mission.
Sometimes you rush in, sometimes you hold back and hide, then pounce turn two or three. I've had some games where I've not made a decent push forward until quite late relatively speaking.
Orks have a codex that currently leads towards big alpha strikes in the current climate, looking to prevent your opponent from scoring (either by killing them, tying them up in melee, or physically blocking them and limiting their lines of fire/movement), while your slower units score points early and let things snowball.
That alpha strike can be mostly melee focused with Squig units, Snaggas and Kommandos, or through massive shooting from buggies, jets, etc.
Post your list and let us know what your regular opponents are and we'll help out where we can.
Had semi casual 1500pt game against my friends guard and tried out the triple killtank. Also brought 2 kannonwagons cause I figured might as well try them too. I went with blood axe for the light cover. He brought a plasma russ, vanquisher russ, tank commander, stormlord, command squad, lord solar, and kaskrin all inside the stormlord.
First impression is holy kaskrin are insane for a 100pt unit now. You have to dump a decent amount of cp into them plus Solar's buffs, but they no joke were nearly one shotting a full health killtank every turn due to their mw's and bucket of ap3 wounds I would have to take. My friend said commanders can issue orders and tag units with their auras inside transports now which I didn't really see anywhere in the dex but I also didn't look too hard so idk if any of you guys know anything about that.
Overall impressions were the killtanks and kannonwagons actually did pretty good and I actually had a chance to win had I not left his stormlord and vanquisher on 1 wound remaining bottom of 2. Between command orders, solar buffs, and stratagems, degrading doesn't really matter that much to guard so it's better to just confirm the kill and not be greedy. I will say I had basically the best possible scenario by getting first turn and having dense terrain I could hide some of my killtanks in plus the light cover from blood axe's, and still lost. If guard do become the meta I think infantry spam will likely be orks best or possibly only option sadly.
It felt weird that I was more afraid of his infantry than his tanks. His kaskrin did more damage than the rest of his army combined and orks don't really have a way to quickly take down a 28W T9 stormlord and even without the transport they can just infiltrate the kaskrin and use them as cheap throw away missile units. The command squad is also absolutely insane. T5 because of the bullgryn bodyguards which have like 7 wounds, are decently punchy, have a 5+ fnp from the medic and if you manage to kill them both they can resurrect both of them with FULL WOUNDS for 1 cp... I think our best option is gonna be to completely ignore it and focus the rest of the army.
Anyways moral of the story is kaskrin are nuts and need to be target number 1 and/or stay out of their double tap range.
tag units with their auras inside transports now which I didn't really see anywhere in the dex
yah thats going to be a show me situation because thats a pretty big departure. units in transports cant be the target of anything nor do their auras exist unless specifically stated otherwise.
they CAN disembark during the movement phase then immediately give an order as if it were the command phase, but not seeing anything about their auras working while in a vehicle with transport capacity.
tag units with their auras inside transports now which I didn't really see anywhere in the dex
yah thats going to be a show me situation because thats a pretty big departure. units in transports cant be the target of anything nor do their auras exist unless specifically stated otherwise.
they CAN disembark during the movement phase then immediately give an order as if it were the command phase, but not seeing anything about their auras working while in a vehicle with transport capacity.
Sounds like a mistake (or cheating) since the only transport that can do anything remotely like that is the chimera because it has the mobile command tank special rule. And even that only allows an officer to issue orders from inside the vehicle.
Deffkoptas were ok with speed waagh but I've found em wanting of later. In a post Armor of contempt world they could be ok again.
Dump the 4*big shootas on the battlewagon and upgrade the normal boys to beast snaggas. From experience they're way better. If you made the warbike squad 2*3 or even dropped it down to 5 models you could. Make the second boys squad beast snaggas and make the meganobz truckboyz.
Also the boss on squigasaur only buffs beast snaggas (+1 to hit against non vehicles).
Do you have two specialist mobz? Dunno if we'll be able in the new detachment.
- Gorka and Morkanaut down for 35p to 330/315p
- Killakans down from 35p to 30p + sale on rokkit from 15p to 10p
- sales on Boyz heavy weapons - kombiweapons and rokkits down to 5p, same with the nobz
- Painboy 70->60p
- Flashgitz 25->20p
- both squighogs and kustom stompa also little bit down
- the price for rokkits and killsaws etc is now different in every unit. From 5 to 15p….
1. Speedmob is dead. Change in detachements limits the number of FA slots to 6 strict. Without completely new wording of AOR list build, it can hardly works. I expect explicit stop for them.
Which is pitty, because I paint last two buggies right now to have complete speedmob. Damn….
2. I see a wide push for troops. Extra be benefits if completing the missions with troops, a lot of troop slots etc.
3. Trukkboyz and other Spec Mobs nerfed. Because just one per detachement and in new AoO we can have one or 2 detachements only..
4. In combination with the secondaries, melee oriented hord of orks is the way to go.
Bloody hell, I love my speedmob! It was the best army I ever had. Damn! 11000p of orks and nothing to play again…
- Gorka and Morkanaut down for 35p to 330/315p - Killakans down from 35p to 30p + sale on rokkit from 15p to 5p - sales on Boyz heavy weapons - kombiweapons and rokkits down to 5p, same with the nobz - Painboy 70->60p - Flashgitz 25->20p - both squighogs and kustom stompa also little bit down
- the price for rokkits and killsaws etc is now different in every unit. From 5 to 15p….
The big choppa appears to be free for nobz?
as Jidmah said. but i had written this before i had even read the remaining posts.
My question is then; Where do we stand on Nobz? Are nobz with big choppas for 17 points worth it? Are Nobz at 22 points with powerklaws worth it? What about 27 points for double killsaws?
Rokkits for killa kanz says +10 points, not +5. Unless you meant that you save +5 from the discount on the models, and +5 for the rokkit giving a total of 10 in reduction from the original price if you wanted a rokkit killa kan, versus getting one now?
How was it made up to the factions that lost AoC? I only play orks. just so that im aware of it. Unless there was nothing to make up for it and GW just said: Well, F you AoC factions.
Boyz: Kombi Weapons -5pts
Power Stabba - Free (Lose 1 attack for -1AP...Who gives a feth)
Rokkit Launcha -5pts
Big Shoota - Free (who gives a feth)
Nobz: Killsaw -5pts
PK -3pts (Had totally forgotten they were previously only 8pts on nobz now)
Kombi Weapons -5pts
Big Choppa - Free (minor upgrade for nobz...still not good)
Power Stabba - Free
Painboy: -10pts (Now 60pts base...still not worth it)
FlashGitz: -5pts each (Ammo-runt and Gitfinda are still 5pt upgrades.)
KillaKanz: -5pts Each
Grotzooka and Big shoota still remain free (AKA Trash)
Skorcha stays at 5pts
Rokkit Launcha -5pts
You can now field a unit of Rokkit KillaKanz for 40pts each. At T5, 5wounds and a 3+ Save this isn't terrible, but remember they still have LD6 and are a grot unit.
Gorkanaut: -35pts (now its only 50pts over priced)
Morkanaut: -35pts (Now its only 50pts over priced)
Forge World: Squiggoth -20pts
Gargantuan Squiggoth -40pts
Kustom Stompa -25pts (No seriously...they thought this was enough)
Beardedragon wrote: How was it made up to the factions that lost AoC? I only play orks. just so that im aware of it. Unless there was nothing to make up for it and GW just said: Well, F you AoC factions.
For marines specifically, a bunch of unit upgrades (i.e. thunder hammers) are now basically for free and there's been price cuts on borderline all the units across the board. So they get to bring more bodies since they're less resilient now with better weapons.
Kustom Stompa -25pts (No seriously...they thought this was enough)
This is gold. Just another 250p sale and could be ok
On the other side, if we start counter-meta thinking, in new troops meta, such stompa could be real pain to kill
Not really since SM were just given FREE everything. All upgrades for SM Troops are free. In fact, in most cases, upgrades are now free for Marines with only a few exceptions.
Well. on another note. Squiggoth is down in points, flash gitz are down in points. While its not competitive, and with armor of contempt gone, i will attempt to run around with my newly acquired squiggoth with flash gitz in it.
Beardedragon wrote: How was it made up to the factions that lost AoC? I only play orks. just so that im aware of it. Unless there was nothing to make up for it and GW just said: Well, F you AoC factions.
For marines specifically, a bunch of unit upgrades (i.e. thunder hammers) are now basically for free and there's been price cuts on borderline all the units across the board. So they get to bring more bodies since they're less resilient now with better weapons.
At 85pts and with free BC? I have to disagree, nobz are way better now then boys. I think they compete with snagga boys since they can bring 3 claws for the same price. Still subjective, i play they as MSU as troops and they have a large flexibility and good resilience, also 5 is easier to hide then 10.
We were all grumbling about moral in start of the codex, haven't rolled moral ever since i went MSU nobz
I think wazbom is going to get better with automatic reserves. We are also forgetting AoC is going away so that's a big buff.
The fact they removed the supreme detatchment also means i cant run Ghaz in a supreme detatchment and a freebootas next to him.
I used to have a fun army like that with buggies, ghaz and some grots. Sure i CAN still do it, but now ghaz will have to be in the freebootas detatchment and not get his exploding 6s. Nor can i even use the exploding 5s stratagem because he doesnt get his own klan this way.
Its not a big loss but i dont really see any vehicle play for orks this time around. Not next to rigs and transports that is.
But buggies and planes? Not sure how you should use that.
Beardedragon wrote: Well. on another note. Squiggoth is down in points, flash gitz are down in points. While its not competitive, and with armor of contempt gone, i will attempt to run around with my newly acquired squiggoth with flash gitz in it.
Beardedragon wrote: How was it made up to the factions that lost AoC? I only play orks. just so that im aware of it. Unless there was nothing to make up for it and GW just said: Well, F you AoC factions.
For marines specifically, a bunch of unit upgrades (i.e. thunder hammers) are now basically for free and there's been price cuts on borderline all the units across the board. So they get to bring more bodies since they're less resilient now with better weapons.
thank you.
How that will affect us i dont know yet.
To put it bluntly its going to be bad, but its now going to completely depend on who goes first. Losing AoC means Marines are squishier to our Orkz. 10 Boyz just went from doing 3.33dmg to Marines in a turn back up to 5dmg per turn in CC. But on the other hand those Marines are now ridiculously cheap in comparison. A Dev squad armed with Lascannons just dropped 40pts AND the Sgt will now be equipped with up to 20pts of upgrades for free. So if the Marines go first there is a decent chance that they just utterly destroy a huge swath of your army. If you can get stuck in quick enough though there is a chance you can tie up, kill or reduce the dmg they do to you. Overall I think Marines just got significantly better while we got tiny buffs on units that were really terrible. Realistically we were talking about if Nobz would be good if they were given FREE PKs, and the consensus was that they would have a role but wouldn't be spammed. With these changes I can maybe see a unit of Trukk Nobz with free Big choppas being used instead of trukkboyz but that is about it.
Nobz are not troops (important in AoO) and not obsec and low body count for holding objectives.
Nobz have a very much SM profile so there is too many guns ready to kill them.
With single detachement, just one truknobz can be used (or 2 with the patrol).
I can imagine a list with a single 10 truknobz blob in the trukk for long range charge in T1/2. That can do a damage and stop one side of the front for a turn. But they die in a single turn. Is it good investment for about 250p incl trukk?
Tomsug wrote: Nobz are not troops (important in AoO) and not obsec and low body count for holding objectives.
Nobz have a very much SM profile so there is too many guns ready to kill them.
With single detachement, just one truknobz can be used (or 2 with the patrol).
we can't take the patrol - the patrol must be one of the allied ones listed in the book and orks get none. yes you get 1 specialist mob period now. choose wisely.
certainly seems like their pushing us back into infantry spam, except we still get boned by moral. So then we'll have to spam like 30 msu. Sounds super fun...
Also tf is that harlies nerf? they didn't even try to fine tune them they're just like "aaannnnnd your the worst army in the game now." I feel like every time I get the smallest amount of confidence in the rules team they put out patches like this.
Oh well, guess I'm just gonna be rocking 3 killtanks and 2 wazbomms as my army until 10th ed
flaming tadpole wrote: certainly seems like their pushing us back into infantry spam, except we still get boned by moral. So then we'll have to spam like 30 msu. Sounds super fun...
Also tf is that harlies nerf? they didn't even try to fine tune them they're just like "aaannnnnd your the worst army in the game now." I feel like every time I get the smallest amount of confidence in the rules team they put out patches like this.
Oh well, guess I'm just gonna be rocking 3 killtanks and 2 wazbomms as my army until 10th ed
Sounds fun. what would you fill the remaining slots with?
AoC going away is a massive buff considering almost ALL of our major damage threats are AP1/2.
I legit stopped playing Badmoonz because AoC was pissing me off. Oh i situationally get slightly better AP that...youre entire army flatout ignores ok cool yeah thats fair...
I dont know what all the marine gear previous costs were but generally in the past even sweeping changes to an army's costs rarely enabled a drastic amount of bodies to be included. Do i expect more marines now? Yeah. Do i feel like theyre going to be running something silly like 30% more bodies? Hell no.
flaming tadpole wrote: certainly seems like their pushing us back into infantry spam, except we still get boned by moral. So then we'll have to spam like 30 msu. Sounds super fun...
Also tf is that harlies nerf? they didn't even try to fine tune them they're just like "aaannnnnd your the worst army in the game now." I feel like every time I get the smallest amount of confidence in the rules team they put out patches like this.
Oh well, guess I'm just gonna be rocking 3 killtanks and 2 wazbomms as my army until 10th ed
Sounds fun. what would you fill the remaining slots with?
Probably just some grots, 1-2 warboss and kff mek will be all I can afford haha. I may have missed it but do we know if orks will have access to patrol detachments so we can take ghaz in a separate one? If so I might just make a hero hammer list with ghaz, 2 squig bosses and zagstruck. Could be fun.
Harlies nerf was the typical GW "stop using that army we cant balance it" nerf. Theyve done it several times and im honestly surprised it took this long for harlies to get slapped like that.
They didnt even compensate really for doing it, so yeah its straight up "stop using them" level of nerf.
Tomsug wrote: Nobz are not troops (important in AoO) and not obsec and low body count for holding objectives.
Nobz have a very much SM profile so there is too many guns ready to kill them.
With single detachement, just one truknobz can be used (or 2 with the patrol).
I can imagine a list with a single 10 truknobz blob in the trukk for long range charge in T1/2. That can do a damage and stop one side of the front for a turn. But they die in a single turn. Is it good investment for about 250p incl trukk?
Who cares, we aren't even using troops these days besides grots for the secondary, want troops? bring grots! If obsec was really that important with be rolling Deathskulls, last i check we aren't, having obsec is good but having more bodies capable of threatening your opponent is far more. Pre-move is way more important in my book.. that's why kommandos is a must.
If no pre-move, you want something that can hold a little bit and cause damage. Hell pretty sure beast snaggas are picked because they can swing inside a killrigg to the front, not because of the stats or being troops. You allow kill riggs to carry any infantry and all of sudden you see it fill to the brim with meganobz and other nasties.
SM profile? Just hide them.. i can't even relate to this argument because the game is so lethal that everything dies, it's like your playing an entire different game to me... it's more important to hide stuff more then ever. The only model i have seen taking a beating and survive were crisis suits and even those you can move around them.
Truckboys? I am not sure you checked but someone mentioned, you can only take 1 now. And i am not sure 150/160pts is worth the cost to catapult a bunch of boys solo somewhere. Again.. why pre-move is so important and kommandos are so up there.
I just don't see boys going to be any good this season. But that's my take, i really wanted to boys to be good.
ya I don't really see either boys being taken much now. We really only took snaggas to go in killrigs and those are gonna get blown sky high in a guard/iron hands meta. If your taking a weirdboy I'd probably take a couple squads for da jump, but other than that I'd probably just spam kommando, stormboy, manz.
Just thought of one problem with the new detachment....Ghaz...
Ghaz could be put in a Supreme Detachment and benefit from Goffs despite the rest of your army not being Goff because it was detachment based not army based for those restrictions. Now he has to be in the same detachment, so now its either a Goff army or Ghaz gets no Goff rules.
ya that's what I was trying to figure out. Idk if the ally rules will allow us to take a another clan in a patrol or not because otherwise ghaz kinda loses his appeal in anything not goffs.
I'm not really sure if ghaz missing out on exploding sixes is much to worry about.
If you're taking ghaz outside of goffs it's for the waagh mostly right? Maybe the ld buffs too. As a beatstick you can get good equivalents for 300pts. Now the gorkanaut is toeing into the same area with the points drop.
well your also losing your clan strategems/relics, not that it's a huge deal breaker. I do like some of the blood axe ones though so will just not run him in those lists.
Vineheart01 wrote: Harlies nerf was the typical GW "stop using that army we cant balance it" nerf. Theyve done it several times and im honestly surprised it took this long for harlies to get slapped like that.
They didnt even compensate really for doing it, so yeah its straight up "stop using them" level of nerf.
Yup, they are pretty well boned, but at the same time they gave them back the most ridiculously OP Sniper in the game.
So Nobz didn't get the free PKs/Saws we were hoping for. I think my Trukkboyz unit of choice is going to be Double Saw MANz for now. They still get early charges, their attacks will actually stick, and they might survive into the next turn, at which point my Squigs and other MANz get stuck in as well.
As far as Ghaz is concerned, I think I'm going to keep him in. I don't get any benefit from the Speedwaaagh side of the Great Waaagh, but I think I'd rather spend the extra 140 points over a second decked out Squigboss than spend the CP.
Beardedragon wrote: How was it made up to the factions that lost AoC? I only play orks. just so that im aware of it. Unless there was nothing to make up for it and GW just said: Well, F you AoC factions.
Well, at least for DG it was very much that. You get a reduction of ~100 point across a coherent 2k list, AoC has been calculated to be worth roughly 400 points of defense for a DG army. Since all other AoC armies outnumber them, and due to the BRB nerf to DR, it is likely they will drop back to their pre-AoC 30% winrate.
Loyalist marines got massives point drops, free gear everywhere, sticky objectives and 8th edition doctrines back, so they'll be fine.
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cody.d. wrote: I'm not really sure if ghaz missing out on exploding sixes is much to worry about.
If you're taking ghaz outside of goffs it's for the waagh mostly right? Maybe the ld buffs too. As a beatstick you can get good equivalents for 300pts. Now the gorkanaut is toeing into the same area with the points drop.
Honestly, I feel like the morkanaut looks much better. As the Waaagh! provides the invul, there really is no reason to buy the KFF and you get a much better gun (i.e. turn 1 impact) for less points.
Honestly, I feel like the morkanaut looks much better. As the Waaagh! provides the invul, there really is no reason to buy the KFF and you get a much better gun (i.e. turn 1 impact) for less points.
Having used the Morkanaut in a bunch of friendly matches...it doesn't work well. Way too many armies have easy access to -1 to hit, or at the least, they have the ability to put -1 to hit on the important stuff you want the morkanaut shooting at. And -1 to hit means you are almost as likely to hurt yourself as the enemy. Against a T7 vehicle with a 3+ save that has -1 to hit the Morkanaut averages 6 shots, 1 hit and 1 roll of a 1. That roll of a 1 inflicts a mortal wound on yourself 100% of the time, the 1 hit you got has a 2/3rds chance to wound and against a 3+ it has a 5/6th chance to go through armor and then averages 3.5dmg. So that works out to just shy of 2dmg a turn on average.
I still argue that Orks (especially since we technically lost our army wide 6s always hit rule when everyone else got it as well), should get an army wide rule that says they always hit on a 5. The prevalence of -1 to hit is a minor inconvenience to SM armies, against our shooting units though its a 50% reduction in dmg. Kind of a big deal.
Yeah i was thinking about using a mork again until i realized the only reason i used it so much was Deathskullz shenanigans and/or the Kustom Job to hit on 4s. It really needs BS4+. That gun realistically is going to nuke 1 elite model between accuracy and fnp/invuls, not delete tanks like it used to.
At least i think the gork is good enough to use casually now. Definitely not ever considering it if im being serious as it isnt fast enough to get melee quickly and even if you dont blow it up its melee gets less deadly stupid fast. Price cut and getting kultures again help a lot. (i used to wish that things degraded but i really hate the way they did it....lot of things feel like they dont care and others feel like theyre dead long before theyre actually dead)
Yeah, it always bothered me that the Morkanaut didn't have BS4+ despite the fact that it was basically piloted by a Mek, which got boosted to BS4+ in the new codex. I always thought that it would be a nice dichotomy of how the Mork was shootier and the Gorkanaut was stompier from not just the weapon options but also the unit stats beyond just the base level of attacks. Heck, given how we have no way of making our Morkanauts/Gorkanauts fight at top bracket for strats or ways of mitigating damage (really, no ramshackle?) it wouldn't be past to give the Gorkanaut WS2+ so he can actually do some consistent damage given there's no army buffs it can receive barring Buzzgob.
I still argue that Orks (especially since we technically lost our army wide 6s always hit rule when everyone else got it as well), should get an army wide rule that says they always hit on a 5. The prevalence of -1 to hit is a minor inconvenience to SM armies, against our shooting units though its a 50% reduction in dmg. Kind of a big deal.
And AP1 drops a 2+ from a 17% chance of an unsaved wound to 33%. Cover is more beneficial to higher save models as a result. Modifiers and rerolls affect certain statlines more than others. Reroll 1s is also more beneficial to higher BS and full rerolls are the inverse. You can tell at a glance that GW doesn't realize this in general and does not take it into account at all in their points or rules formulations.
Vineheart01 wrote: yeah i miss the days of static cover saves. Basically an invul save for shooting only that some weapons ignored.
Unfortunately, lots of MEQ players were salty that it benefited armies like ours more, even though it still helped them against the increasing number of high AP weapons in previous editions, so that got nixed when the game got revamped. Marine players unfortunately have a very strong voice inside and outside the GW studio due to how much of a money maker they are.
As far as Ghaz is concerned, I think I'm going to keep him in. I don't get any benefit from the Speedwaaagh side of the Great Waaagh, but I think I'd rather spend the extra 140 points over a second decked out Squigboss than spend the CP.
with the proliferation of "ignore rules that ignore wounds" Ghaz value is declining rapidly - no look out sir, cannot go through walls(and moves 7" at top bracket). he just cant get anywhere to do anything meaningful in time and doing 4 wounds in 3 phases in one turn isnt a challenge for any army except Tau and knights.
if he could breach MAYBE because you could reasonably hide him until hes ready to kool-aid man but as is hes too slow and too easy to kill.
As far as Ghaz is concerned, I think I'm going to keep him in. I don't get any benefit from the Speedwaaagh side of the Great Waaagh, but I think I'd rather spend the extra 140 points over a second decked out Squigboss than spend the CP.
with the proliferation of "ignore rules that ignore wounds" Ghaz value is declining rapidly - no look out sir, cannot go through walls(and moves 7" at top bracket). he just cant get anywhere to do anything meaningful in time and doing 4 wounds in 3 phases in one turn isnt a challenge for any army except Tau and knights.
if he could breach MAYBE because you could reasonably hide him until hes ready to kool-aid man but as is hes too slow and too easy to kill.
I am considering the same, now that the 2cp extra is off the table with the new army building in AoO, the removal of the boss is the best secondary, i am also struggling to validate Ghaz, the wound phasing has it's uses but that 7' move is a pain.. Double waagh is not even that good as well... Unless i see some support on dakka weapons i am not sure it's worth it.
Heya guys, I just wanted to have a moan that the warzone octarius book is now invalid according to the Content Validity Update, meaning we can't use the extra Blood Axes rules anymore for tournament play. Seems a bit arbitary as there's nothing new coming for orks afaik.
PaddyMick wrote: Heya guys, I just wanted to have a moan that the warzone octarius book is now invalid according to the Content Validity Update, meaning we can't use the extra Blood Axes rules anymore for tournament play. Seems a bit arbitary as there's nothing new coming for orks afaik.
Thanks feel better now!
oh i thought only the speed mob was invalidated.
can we not use the extra blood axe stratagems? they are just stratagems for a klan?
But i guess you are right. they were a suppliment.. thats sad.
Also the consensus seems to be we wont be getting the patrol option? Only the arks of Omen? That fething sucks. I thought we could get an arks of Omen AND a patrol.
Regarding ghaz he was always better w goffs. Not only for his own buffing reasons but his reroll aura was goffs, makari only works on goffs,
Regardless I think the supreme commmand issue will be faq as a lot of codexs have issues with supreme command and ark of omen detachment having no exception for it to be battleforged.
Sad that manz are still the same cost. They've allready been worse than sm termies and now even more so. I mean just compare a 30pt meganob to a 32 or 33 pt deathwing with a storm shield and thunder hammer. It's like comparing a grot to a space marine and saying: yeah, they should cost the same.
On the bright-ish side: kanz got a bit cheaper. And I have 6. So, why not outflank cp-free all 6 with something like a bunch of flamers or stock bigshootas for a nice 3d6 charge. Just got to somehow make ghaz survive till t2. Need to roll first turn more than ever.
Beardedragon wrote: Also the consensus seems to be we wont be getting the patrol option? Only the arks of Omen? That fething sucks. I thought we could get an arks of Omen AND a patrol.
Yeah that's the way it's gone. Orks don't even get any allies. Evil Sunz can't ally with Goffs but any Imperium can ally with Votann.
So no double patrol and taking 2 specialist mobs any more. But you can get 2 warbossess and 3 character elite slots on top of normal elite slots.
Beardedragon wrote: Also the consensus seems to be we wont be getting the patrol option? Only the arks of Omen? That fething sucks. I thought we could get an arks of Omen AND a patrol.
Yeah that's the way it's gone. Orks don't even get any allies. Evil Sunz can't ally with Goffs but any Imperium can ally with Votann. So no double patrol and taking 2 specialist mobs any more. But you can get 2 warbossess and 3 character elite slots on top of normal elite slots.
i mean you could use the stratagem that allows for 2 warbosses on your specialist mobs if you wanted afaik. But you wouldnt get 2 warbosses then.
So, what do you think about trukknobz now? Seems that we're kinda forced to go for a t2 betta-strike now that planes have to start in reserves, enemies have significantly more firepower to deal with rigs and ghaz early on.
Personally, I never liked rigs and never got them. But I have 3 scrapjets and 2 mek planes. Also, 6 killa kanz. So, there's a thought in my mind: what about outflanking a squad of kanz together with planes and a trukkboy unit of either nobz or meganobz.mrganobz got no changes but nobz, on the other hand, got free bigchoppas and with a loss of aoc can hope to be mediocre once again.
The problem is that ghaz needs to live till t2 - meaning he has to hide for a turn. But if the betta strike hits well enough he can hope to dominate midfield from t3 and later on.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, 5pt kskorchas for nobz. 290 for a unit of 10 with kskorchas and a trukk. They are very fragile, they need a place to hide but they hit kinda hard vs most stuff that's not toting 1+ armor.
Would it be insane to try and go the Evil Sunz route for more movement speed to actually get a turn 1 charge? Before we needed the goff extra hits to attempt to slightly counter act the AoC, but thats gone now.
As Evil Sunz:
2x Trukk boy Nobz with big choppas (Because you spend 1 CP to be allowed to take 2), Some stormboyz flying 20 inches, 1 rig with Da reddest paint, 1 rig with squighide tires, Something else fast? Kommandos maybe for forward deploy?
Mega Dread “roll one more for charge and discrad lowest” combinet with the ramming speed “add 1 dice to roll” allowing you to have 3 x 4,5 = 13,5” charge in average.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The crucial question is - what type of targets will be common in upcoming meta => what type of weapons shall we expect.
Last spring the big advetage of Speedmob was pretty common lack of heavy anti vehicle dakka on the other side of the table.
What is the situation now?
What shall we expect in upcoming months?
If meta = (big) vehicles => a lot of anti vehicle weapons => go full on Kommandos and all kind of footsloging infantry.
If meta = infantry => lack of anti vehicle weapons => let' s give Rigs and Wagons a ride!
Besides there is another issue - I' m very interested in your perspectives:
KOMMANDOS vs. US vs EU vs GW terrain with large ruins vs. WTC terrains with a lot of Lshapes
Some list runs a big blobs of 10 Kommandos. Some runs just the small ones.
I see some corelaction between
GW terrain / US tournaments = 10blobs of Kommandos
Just played a game with one of national team player's for my country, placed 100 in last world tournament. I actually play with him from time to time but only found yesterday lol. Now i understand why he so easily demolishes us
He is a tyrannid player and we are in agreement that pre-move/infiltration/re-deploy will still be very powerful. I am not joking, he was playing with handicap and his tyrannid list completely shut us down(it was a 1000/1000pts ork/Tau vs 1500pts tyrannid)... was a local for fun game.
His words not mine is that we will probably see a resurgence of big bug's like hive tyrants and other beefy t8 units, he is assembling something resembling that. Or like i spotted in tacticaltortoise, a swarmy list with hormagaunts with big bugs to regenerate blocks of 15, moving across the ground supported with gene stealers for infiltration and 2 hive tyrants + brain bugs with the 3+ inv for spells and synapses + deny... Hive tyrants with 4+inv plus 5+fnp tanking a Beastboss on squigassaur on multiple activations is brutal and they heal next turn lol... this while ghaz is holding another 3 big bugs was epic...
It's tough to pin where the meta will land, it will depend a lot of who will dominate... shooting or melee.. with world eater's coming out... Cutodes and Admech going up, Ip also overperforming, votann remaining where it is, i can see shooting meta going forward (i have no idea where SM will land, neither will i attempt to predict)... with tyannids and harlies going down and these are highly mobile armies with high offensive power.. remains to be seen how it will shape thing's for us..
I do agree with Tomsug, that it will depend a lot on what will make the tables in the field.. Not sure Kill rigs are out though with free reserves it might be a good way to safeguard them, Kans and other similar units. We might even go t2 like he mentions instead of a alpha pressure.
Goff pressure is still good.. nothing really changed for orks… new ark of omen detachment doesn’t matter… blood axes supplement is gone.. we still need to complete the missions to win and goodbits is still the best bet… I guess ghaz is slightly worse now that biggest and baddest is gone and more units ignore wound caps..killrigs are still lethal for thier price and beastsnaggas are still good… the meta might shake up a little with space marines finally being decent but harlequins and even Tyranids took a beating and I’m not sure there was a lot more that held up goff pressure.
Kans are cheap now… not sure where those fit into goff horde BUT I can see them finally making some table time. I’m not thrilled with them as they have worse morale issues and not super reliable shooting or melee and they are slow but they are cheap…
ghaz is slightly worse now that biggest and baddest is gone and more units ignore wound caps
Ghaz is about to be come very local meta dependent. Marine armies will have no problem 1 turning ghaz, and dropping him over 2 turns isnt a huge endeavor with shooty marines being viable again. ghaz just moves too slow for not being able to go through walls or not having look out sir and no always fights first. i'd rather have 10 meganobs than Ghaz in just about every scenario.
Vineheart01 wrote: yeah i miss the days of static cover saves. Basically an invul save for shooting only that some weapons ignored.
Unfortunately, lots of MEQ players were salty that it benefited armies like ours more, even though it still helped them against the increasing number of high AP weapons in previous editions, so that got nixed when the game got revamped. Marine players unfortunately have a very strong voice inside and outside the GW studio due to how much of a money maker they are.
And then they added static covers saves back into the game that is almost exclusivly MEQs!
There's been an interesting suggestion of using bc nobz instead of boyz.
It seems cool if you have that many. Not sure it's gonna be good enough to outweigh the body benefit for the green tide secondary. We'll see.
I am considering trying kommandos with nobz support with the jump. t2 you add kans/death dread, wazboom or kill rig
3 kommandos + 2 nobz + 2 weirdboys, added benefit for smites and other buffs, I would say double beastboss on squigassaur followed with squigboyz, but i don't have the models.. we will see.
I'm going with 3x10 Kommandos and 5 Trukkboyz Double Saw MANz with Zagstruk as my primary alpha strike.
Beta strike is 3x4 Squighogs, 5 Klaw MANz in a Wagon, Mega Dread and 2x Squigbosses.
3x10 grots look after objectives and a lone Mek Gun provides a minimum of shooting and sitting on home plate.
I think Nobs would be much more viable with free klaws, but we didn't get that. I don't value Big Choppas enough to consider them over MANz at this point, they just don't have the AP to compete.
Killa Kans with the Rokkit use to be 35+15=50p. Now, they are just 30+10=40p which is 20% down. That is massive and makes me to do some calculation about Killa Kanz vs. Scrapjets:
For 600p, you can have 6 MSJ or 15 Kans.
Kans are slower.
Kans have T5 vs. T6 but the base Sv is 3+ vs 4+
Both have Ramshackle.
Kans are 75W distributed by 5 (waste D3 and D3+3 weapons very vell).
MSJ are 54W distributed by 9 (do not waste so much).
Kans have 15D3 rokkit shots = 30 average hit on 4+ = 15 hits.
MSJ have 18D3+6 rokkit shots = 42 average hits on 5 = 14 hits.
Kans have 60 attacks 8/-3/3 hits 4+ = 30 hits
MSJ have 24 attacks 8/-2/D3 hits 4+ = 12 hits + can deal some MW in charge.
MSJ have a massive anti infantry shooting from their shootas.
Kans can be boosted by Waagh Banner to deal 30->40 hits 8/-3/3.
I think there might be some viability to massed Kanz and MANz, especially if you went for 3 wagons with your 6 HS slots. Just trying to drown the opponent in relatively tough wounds that they can't grind through in time.
Mega Armour Boss
KFF Mega Mek
3x10 Grots
3x5 MANz 3x Battlewagons
3x5 Rokkit Kans
That's about 1750ish points, with 51 T5 2+ wounds, 7 T6 2+ 5++ wounds, 48 T7 3+ Ramshackle wounds, and 75 T5 3+ Ramshackle wounds (not including Grots). It also has the KFF to blow up for the bigger 5++ for the MANz and Kanz.
Assuming it makes it to combat unscathed, it has a huge amount of high strength, high AP, high damage attacks in melee, and 15d3 Rokkit shots hitting on 4s.
It's probably just one big meme list but it would be super straightforward to pilot.
Tomsug wrote: Killa Kans with the Rokkit use to be 35+15=50p. Now, they are just 30+10=40p which is 20% down. That is massive and makes me to do some calculation about Killa Kanz vs. Scrapjets:
For 600p, you can have 6 MSJ or 15 Kans.
Kans are slower.
Kans have T5 vs. T6 but the base Sv is 3+ vs 4+
Both have Ramshackle.
Kans are 75W distributed by 5 (waste D3 and D3+3 weapons very vell).
MSJ are 54W distributed by 9 (do not waste so much).
Kans have 15D3 rokkit shots = 30 average hit on 4+ = 15 hits.
MSJ have 18D3+6 rokkit shots = 42 average hits on 5 = 14 hits.
Kans have 60 attacks 8/-3/3 hits 4+ = 30 hits
MSJ have 24 attacks 8/-2/D3 hits 4+ = 12 hits + can deal some MW in charge.
MSJ have a massive anti infantry shooting from their shootas.
Kans can be boosted by Waagh Banner to deal 30->40 hits 8/-3/3.
MSJ can benefit from Freeboota +1 to hit.
No conclusion, just calculation...
Small addendum: Buzzgob (the Goff Mek) buffs Kans too. +1 to hit
Afrodactyl wrote: I think there might be some viability to massed Kanz and MANz, especially if you went for 3 wagons with your 6 HS slots. Just trying to drown the opponent in relatively tough wounds that they can't grind through in time.
Mega Armour Boss
KFF Mega Mek
3x10 Grots
3x5 MANz 3x Battlewagons
3x5 Rokkit Kans
That's about 1750ish points, with 51 T5 2+ wounds, 7 T6 2+ 5++ wounds, 48 T7 3+ Ramshackle wounds, and 75 T5 3+ Ramshackle wounds (not including Grots). It also has the KFF to blow up for the bigger 5++ for the MANz and Kanz.
Assuming it makes it to combat unscathed, it has a huge amount of high strength, high AP, high damage attacks in melee, and 15d3 Rokkit shots hitting on 4s.
It's probably just one big meme list but it would be super straightforward to pilot.
I like the list, but lacks mortal wounds source and i would downgrade to trucks to save on points... still good to give it a spin.. i still think nobs have a spot if you count them as boys that can actually wound t8, sure it's only -1 ap but it's something you can throw that does not require boss support and can hold before bigger threats arrive + can throw them away just like kommandos. 3 komandos + 2 nobz + 2 weirdboyz is just like 685pts
Tomsug wrote: Killa Kans with the Rokkit use to be 35+15=50p. Now, they are just 30+10=40p which is 20% down. That is massive and makes me to do some calculation about Killa Kanz vs. Scrapjets:
For 600p, you can have 6 MSJ or 15 Kans.
Did the new data slate get rid of the ridiculous limit of no more than 3 models per type of buggy?
Afrodactyl wrote: I think there might be some viability to massed Kanz and MANz, especially if you went for 3 wagons with your 6 HS slots. Just trying to drown the opponent in relatively tough wounds that they can't grind through in time.
Mega Armour Boss
KFF Mega Mek
3x10 Grots
3x5 MANz 3x Battlewagons
3x5 Rokkit Kans
That's about 1750ish points, with 51 T5 2+ wounds, 7 T6 2+ 5++ wounds, 48 T7 3+ Ramshackle wounds, and 75 T5 3+ Ramshackle wounds (not including Grots). It also has the KFF to blow up for the bigger 5++ for the MANz and Kanz.
Assuming it makes it to combat unscathed, it has a huge amount of high strength, high AP, high damage attacks in melee, and 15d3 Rokkit shots hitting on 4s.
It's probably just one big meme list but it would be super straightforward to pilot.
I like the list, but lacks mortal wounds source and i would downgrade to trucks to save on points... still good to give it a spin.. i still think nobs have a spot if you count them as boys that can actually wound t8, sure it's only -1 ap but it's something you can throw that does not require boss support and can hold before bigger threats arrive + can throw them away just like kommandos. 3 komandos + 2 nobz + 2 weirdboyz is just like 685pts
I opted for wagons just for the sake of having more higher T wounds. Trukks just straight up die and don't do anything. At least a BW can bully smaller things with its rolla.
I want to be wrong about regular Nobs, I really do someone use them and prove that they're worth taking
Tomsug wrote: That is a calculation. Not a list. 600p is lowest count where 40p and 100p meets
So the text equivalent of white noise. Because no one cares how many attacks you can get/what it's pts are/etc from a unit size that won't be involved in an actual game.
Would it be insane to try and go the Evil Sunz route for more movement speed to actually get a turn 1 charge? Before we needed the goff extra hits to attempt to slightly counter act the AoC, but thats gone now.
I think they’ll be viable, but more importantly I agree with your overall point on going for turn 1 overwhelm the opponent.
People are gonna find out here pretty soon just how quickly new marines plus guard are going to be able to whittle us down. Killrigs and all our armor are going to get absolutely demolished with the mass of plasma and lascannons on every sm unit. A 100pt kaskrin guard unit can easily one shot a rig statistically with a couple cp investment.
I think our only choice from a competitive standpoint is gonna be msu greentide, especially with the buff to the secondary. It’ll be a struggle to open up guard tanks, but as long as your not giving your opponent any good targets for all their high damage/ap then you can probably live long enough to outscore them. Just my 2 cents anyway.
Killakanz are so close to being great again. Theyre moderately cheap for a 5W T5 3+ body, thats not bad at all. The problem is STILL their leadership....durability is nice but when you only need to take 1 to possibly lose the rest its kind of a moot benefit. nevermind running a full squad as you just gotta kill 3 in 1 turn and you can almost guarantee the rest will run away because of the "half strength" crap.
If their leadership was a nonissue i feel we'd be using them a lot right now
I am not seeing kans being played in more then 3 units.. like deffkoptas, the risk on moral roll is too big. unless you wish to spend cp to pass moral.
Honestly I'm pretty keen on Flashgitz right now. With AOC gone and the likleyhood of a lot more MEQ bodies on the field it seems like they'll be great at thinning their numbers enough that we can contest objectives midfield. Question is, is it worth taking 2 units and adding Baddruk and a painboy to keep them going a little longer.
cody.d. wrote: Honestly I'm pretty keen on Flashgitz right now. With AOC gone and the likleyhood of a lot more MEQ bodies on the field it seems like they'll be great at thinning their numbers enough that we can contest objectives midfield. Question is, is it worth taking 2 units and adding Baddruk and a painboy to keep them going a little longer.
i mean. You will probably keep them in a transport in which, badruk wont give them his +1 to hit or what ever he does. or is it reroll 1s? Cant remember. They also wouldnt benefit from a painboy.
If you have flashgitz out in the open, its either because you want them dead, or because their transport died.
Vineheart01 wrote: Killakanz are so close to being great again. Theyre moderately cheap for a 5W T5 3+ body, thats not bad at all. The problem is STILL their leadership....durability is nice but when you only need to take 1 to possibly lose the rest its kind of a moot benefit. nevermind running a full squad as you just gotta kill 3 in 1 turn and you can almost guarantee the rest will run away because of the "half strength" crap.
If their leadership was a nonissue i feel we'd be using them a lot right now
There are two major points about the Kans:
1. What you say - moral! Squad of 3 is max without serious risk. So max is about 3x3 which is pretty insignificant to build list around?
2. Score and prevent scoring! That is what' s all list building about. Kans are slow. No matter how potentialy good they are, the best they can do is to be the last defence lince or T3 openers. That is not a game plan to score & prevent scoring. Most of the armies will be almost ful of VPs in T3 if you let them. And there is no reasonable way how to make them faster - use 9” deepstrike is not “reasonable” unless used on Megadreads..
So the best Kanz can be is some kind of supporting unit waiting for the last turns to hold objective on the end. And let other units do the main job in first few turns.
Which is actually not bad, I remember one or two of such lists in last season.
So the point - is there - after masive price reduction - new use for the old Kanz? Doesn' t seem like that
Would it be insane to try and go the Evil Sunz route for more movement speed to actually get a turn 1 charge? Before we needed the goff extra hits to attempt to slightly counter act the AoC, but thats gone now.
I think they’ll be viable, but more importantly I agree with your overall point on going for turn 1 overwhelm the opponent.
People are gonna find out here pretty soon just how quickly new marines plus guard are going to be able to whittle us down. Killrigs and all our armor are going to get absolutely demolished with the mass of plasma and lascannons on every sm unit. A 100pt kaskrin guard unit can easily one shot a rig statistically with a couple cp investment.
I think our only choice from a competitive standpoint is gonna be msu greentide, especially with the buff to the secondary. It’ll be a struggle to open up guard tanks, but as long as your not giving your opponent any good targets for all their high damage/ap then you can probably live long enough to outscore them. Just my 2 cents anyway.
I have a same feeling. Which drives me crazy, I like to paint the large ork machines! I don' t wanna graze the tons of boyz…
Beardedragon - I made some experiments with ES a year ago already and the problems are that
1. There is not enough buffs to boost everything in your army. So just few boosted units will be the lone attackers and die. Alphacharge not strong enough.
2. The movement buffs are minor and makes your alpha charge not reliable enough…
cody.d. wrote: Honestly I'm pretty keen on Flashgitz right now. With AOC gone and the likleyhood of a lot more MEQ bodies on the field it seems like they'll be great at thinning their numbers enough that we can contest objectives midfield. Question is, is it worth taking 2 units and adding Baddruk and a painboy to keep them going a little longer.
i mean. You will probably keep them in a transport in which, badruk wont give them his +1 to hit or what ever he does. or is it reroll 1s? Cant remember. They also wouldnt benefit from a painboy.
If you have flashgitz out in the open, its either because you want them dead, or because their transport died.
It does limit the top output of the Flashgitz though. No gun crazy showoffs is a bit of a bummer. But a battlewagon with 10 flashgitz does come to just 320 with the obligatory deffrolla. That isn't an overly expensive investment all things considered.
My biggest gripe with kanz is not their leadership but the fact that they give up VP too easilly for being vehicles. Squads of 3 if you just footslog them across the board. But i'm actually thinking we're not gona have any chances vs IG and SM if we simply slog and hope for the best. Their firepower is gona be too rediculous. Thus, i advocate for a more kunnin' approach.
Betta-strike! Where you try to hide 1-st turn with mostly anything and than jump out like crazy t2. Means smaller stuff, more infiltrate, no rigs, no wagons, no stuff like that... Get lotsa kommandoez - like 6*5 and get those sweet greentide points hiding behind los. Get your other stuff as small and fast as possible for the t2 rush - bikerboss, trukknobz, bikers, koptas, stormboyz - you name it... We get free outflank now, so, why not use it?!
Just imagine. The enemy rolls around the board hunting down your msu kommandoes and trying to get some view on those cowardly greenskins hugging the walls of ruins... and than WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH! 2 blastajets arrive and wreck havok! A trukk full of nobz with kombiskorchas rushes in, they jump off, burn stuff to ashes and bonk people on the heads with their s9 bigchoppas! A bikerboss with a huge klaw slams into one flank and rips faces off elite warriors. And than... 6 freaking kanz with burnas show up on the other flank, drowning down some valualbe heavy support with napalm death from their crude but killy skorchas and than rush in at ramming speed to chop down the backline! What a glorious fight it's gona be!..
Ahem, got carried away a bit. Anywayz, i think 6 kanz are ok if you can outflank them and than charge in with ramming speed. And trukknobz with kskorchas and bigchoppas might be a good asset for this very t2 rush. If you happen to have Ghaz alongside, he should rush out of his cover too for the 3-d turn cleanup. And you're probably better off with ghaz as you do need bots extra ap for planes and kanz and extra durability with an attack in mellee.
This approach does need some decent blos terrain tho. Otherwise you'll simply loose all the stuff peacemeal. So, depends on your local tables for sure.
koooaei wrote: A trukk full of nobz with kombiskorchas rushes in, they jump off, burn stuff to ashes and bonk people on the heads with their s9 bigchoppas! A bikerboss with a huge klaw slams into one flank and rips faces off elite warriors. And than... 6 freaking kanz with burnas show up on the other flank, drowning down some valualbe heavy support with napalm death from their crude but killy skorchas and than rush in at ramming speed to chop down the backline! What a glorious fight it's gona be!..
[...]And trukknobz with kskorchas and bigchoppas might be a good asset for this very t2 rush.
Unfortunately I think it's pretty clear that you have to give up both the choppa and the slugga to get a kombi weapon, so each model is either-or. You don't even get the extra attack from the choppa after you equip a kombi weapon, and you can't get a big choppa on the same model.
Unless I misread something or something changed that I missed. If kombi-skorcha was in the first list, I think you could.
• Any number of models can each have their slugga and choppa replaced with two of the following: 1 big choppa; 1 choppa; 1 killsaw; 1 power klaw; 1 power stabba; 1 slugga.
• Any number of models can each have their slugga and choppa replaced with one of the following: 1 kombi-rokkit; 1 kombi-skorcha.
Battlescribe hasn’t updated the points yet, but the boys nob have kombiskorchas not power stabbas and nob squad is all BC’s. Pretty basic infantry spam overall. Strat would be turn 1 waaagh. Da jump burnas to clear screens for kommandos\trukknobz, fist of gork zagstruk, warpath nobz or another squad if not in range. Stormboyz I’d keep at least one unit in reserve depending on terrain. Turn two drop into backfield and fist squigboss. Little kommando squad hides on side obj. 5x10 boys blob up the middle with weird boyz and da jump snagga boyz as needed.
Might downgrade snaggas to regular boyz so my kommando squads can have a distraction grot which are honestly incredibly helpful against tanks which this list sucks against.
cody.d. wrote: Honestly I'm pretty keen on Flashgitz right now. With AOC gone and the likleyhood of a lot more MEQ bodies on the field it seems like they'll be great at thinning their numbers enough that we can contest objectives midfield. Question is, is it worth taking 2 units and adding Baddruk and a painboy to keep them going a little longer.
i mean. You will probably keep them in a transport in which, badruk wont give them his +1 to hit or what ever he does. or is it reroll 1s? Cant remember. They also wouldnt benefit from a painboy.
If you have flashgitz out in the open, its either because you want them dead, or because their transport died.
It does limit the top output of the Flashgitz though. No gun crazy showoffs is a bit of a bummer. But a battlewagon with 10 flashgitz does come to just 320 with the obligatory deffrolla. That isn't an overly expensive investment all things considered.
I think it might be better to put 10 Flashgitz in a Trukk as it is cheaper and you avoid the need to feel like moving it towards the enemy.
Just park it where they can blast away at anything trying to hold the midfield.
That's a fair point, but that extra 35pts plus upgrades does give you good bump in durability and output. And the deffrolla could actually let them win the occasional combat against small units.
Vineheart01 wrote: Killakanz are so close to being great again. Theyre moderately cheap for a 5W T5 3+ body, thats not bad at all. The problem is STILL their leadership....durability is nice but when you only need to take 1 to possibly lose the rest its kind of a moot benefit. nevermind running a full squad as you just gotta kill 3 in 1 turn and you can almost guarantee the rest will run away because of the "half strength" crap.
If their leadership was a nonissue i feel we'd be using them a lot right now
I’d say take makari and give them ld6 but they already are ld6 (if you add ghaz they also get fnp)
That's a fair point, but that extra 35pts plus upgrades does give you good bump in durability and output. And the deffrolla could actually let them win the occasional combat against small units.
It's worth considering that while trukks are hard to hide, battlewagons are impossible to hide.
If you want to keep something alive hiding is the only option.
That said, I toyed a bit with goff nobz, but I can't get my head to wrap around how a unit of well-equipped nobz is still more expensive than a unit of plague marines which have vastly superior melee and durability.
Squiggoths are pretty dope for flashgitz and got a slight points decrease too I think. No -1 to hit for moving, and slightly more tanks than a bw. For sure will still get blown up by some random sm with a lascannon, but you’ll look fresh doing it.
That's a fair point, but that extra 35pts plus upgrades does give you good bump in durability and output. And the deffrolla could actually let them win the occasional combat against small units.
It's worth considering that while trukks are hard to hide, battlewagons are impossible to hide.
If you want to keep something alive hiding is the only option.
That said, I toyed a bit with goff nobz, but I can't get my head to wrap around how a unit of well-equipped nobz is still more expensive than a unit of plague marines which have vastly superior melee and durability.
Hmm. We can hide stuff like Magnus and knights. How much harder battlewagon is?
That's a fair point, but that extra 35pts plus upgrades does give you good bump in durability and output. And the deffrolla could actually let them win the occasional combat against small units.
It's worth considering that while trukks are hard to hide, battlewagons are impossible to hide.
If you want to keep something alive hiding is the only option.
That said, I toyed a bit with goff nobz, but I can't get my head to wrap around how a unit of well-equipped nobz is still more expensive than a unit of plague marines which have vastly superior melee and durability.
Hmm. We can hide stuff like Magnus and knights. How much harder battlewagon is?
We had this discussion before. Your tables have abnormally large terrain pieces which might as well not exist outside of your bubble.
The issue with hiding wagons is that they are looong models. I've rarely had issues where height was the issue, but there's always the front or the back end sticking out waiting to be shot.
2 Wazbomms and 9 mekgunz in reserves. I'd almost be tempted to drop down to 8 mekgunz so I could fit a killrig with beast snagga Boyz into reserve too.
I'd lose the 5++ and +1 to s and a by going with a speedwaagh but the extra ap on the gunz is really good.
What gunz were you thinking?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Go full slot machine random with 9 bubblechukka? With the extra ap in turn 2 and 3 the three bubblechukka options aren't terrible into non AoC marines
2 Wazbomms and 9 mekgunz in reserves. I'd almost be tempted to drop down to 8 mekgunz so I could fit a killrig with beast snagga Boyz into reserve too.
I'd lose the 5++ and +1 to s and a by going with a speedwaagh but the extra ap on the gunz is really good.
What gunz were you thinking?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Go full slot machine random with 9 bubblechukka? With the extra ap in turn 2 and 3 the three bubblechukka options aren't terrible into non AoC marines
Oh for me its only kustom mega kannons, nothing else
Vineheart01 wrote: Killakanz are so close to being great again. Theyre moderately cheap for a 5W T5 3+ body, thats not bad at all. The problem is STILL their leadership....durability is nice but when you only need to take 1 to possibly lose the rest its kind of a moot benefit. nevermind running a full squad as you just gotta kill 3 in 1 turn and you can almost guarantee the rest will run away because of the "half strength" crap. If their leadership was a nonissue i feel we'd be using them a lot right now
There are two major points about the Kans:
1. What you say - moral! Squad of 3 is max without serious risk. So max is about 3x3 which is pretty insignificant to build list around?
2. Score and prevent scoring! That is what' s all list building about. Kans are slow. No matter how potentialy good they are, the best they can do is to be the last defence lince or T3 openers. That is not a game plan to score & prevent scoring. Most of the armies will be almost ful of VPs in T3 if you let them. And there is no reasonable way how to make them faster - use 9” deepstrike is not “reasonable” unless used on Megadreads..
So the best Kanz can be is some kind of supporting unit waiting for the last turns to hold objective on the end. And let other units do the main job in first few turns.
Which is actually not bad, I remember one or two of such lists in last season.
So the point - is there - after masive price reduction - new use for the old Kanz? Doesn' t seem like that
Would it be insane to try and go the Evil Sunz route for more movement speed to actually get a turn 1 charge? Before we needed the goff extra hits to attempt to slightly counter act the AoC, but thats gone now.
I think they’ll be viable, but more importantly I agree with your overall point on going for turn 1 overwhelm the opponent.
People are gonna find out here pretty soon just how quickly new marines plus guard are going to be able to whittle us down. Killrigs and all our armor are going to get absolutely demolished with the mass of plasma and lascannons on every sm unit. A 100pt kaskrin guard unit can easily one shot a rig statistically with a couple cp investment.
I think our only choice from a competitive standpoint is gonna be msu greentide, especially with the buff to the secondary. It’ll be a struggle to open up guard tanks, but as long as your not giving your opponent any good targets for all their high damage/ap then you can probably live long enough to outscore them. Just my 2 cents anyway.
I have a same feeling. Which drives me crazy, I like to paint the large ork machines! I don' t wanna graze the tons of boyz…
Beardedragon - I made some experiments with ES a year ago already and the problems are that 1. There is not enough buffs to boost everything in your army. So just few boosted units will be the lone attackers and die. Alphacharge not strong enough. 2. The movement buffs are minor and makes your alpha charge not reliable enough…
Hmm..
I mean, 3 units of stormboyz flying 20 inches, 2 rigs, one with squighide tyres going +1 and +2 advance, another rig with reddest paint for +2 movement as well on top of the evil sunz bonus. Maybe a few warbikers or kommandos.
But maybe you are right, because on a lot of maps, you would place your stormboys and such behind cover. that cover often doesnt stand directly on the deployment line, meaning your soldiers will be further behind. And so will the enemy units. And the evil sunz REALLY suffered for no reason when they lost their +1 to their charge.
Going just 18 inches often meant not going for a turn 1 charge unless your opponent went first. I think i will still toy with the idea though. As long as i can get some units in (as many as possible that is) then the rest can go beta strike.
But i dont think it will be amazing, just a thought i want to try.
However, i definitely will be trying out the 9 mek gunz in reserve. and maybe something else. In fact, the whole free reserve opens up a lot of plays i think my brain hasnt even fully fathomed yet. Because atm, it appears to me that only space marines (and well, maybe Tau) are the factions i have no idea how to beat. Many space marine armies just became 400 points cheaper which is insane. But barring that, i think maybe the competitive scene just became easier for the orks. Think. I dont really know yet. of course the competitive scene will now be flooded with space marines however.
And with biggest and da best gone, i dont have to care about pimping out a boss on squig with ard as nails and beasthide mantle, so ghaz is actually more viable for me now. because i ran biggest and da best in 90% of my games, which is also why im thoroughly pissed that the secondary is gone.
Anyhow, with half an army in free reserve, it might be the right time to actually consider something else but goffs.
But just so we're clear, because im not fully sure i understand everything related to arks of Omen.
I was under the impression that "Heroic support" stratagem would ALSO work on specialist mobs. I feel like ive seen a lot of places that says that it doesnt, but i dont understand why not? A warboss can only be used once per detatchment but the stratagem clearly works on warbosses so i could have two.
Specialist mobs can also only be placed one of per detatchment so why shouldnt heroic support work there?
I asked a Marine buddy of mine to break out the most ridiculously OP list he could come up with utilizing all the free gear. Normal board, normal terrain (lots of LOS blocking terrain). Turn 1 he killed everything visible including all 3 units of my Kommandos. Turn 2 I got stuck in and did some decent dmg but by turn 4 it was all over...too much firepower for me to compete against, Plasma Inceptors just about 1 shot everything they look at...and they are cheaper then ever before.
Automatically Appended Next Post: With all of that said....I just don't see ANY Ork vehicles being remotely competitive against a SM list that can take that much massed anti-vehicle firepower for free.
SemperMortis wrote: I asked a Marine buddy of mine to break out the most ridiculously OP list he could come up with utilizing all the free gear. Normal board, normal terrain (lots of LOS blocking terrain). Turn 1 he killed everything visible including all 3 units of my Kommandos. Turn 2 I got stuck in and did some decent dmg but by turn 4 it was all over...too much firepower for me to compete against, Plasma Inceptors just about 1 shot everything they look at...and they are cheaper then ever before.
Automatically Appended Next Post: With all of that said....I just don't see ANY Ork vehicles being remotely competitive against a SM list that can take that much massed anti-vehicle firepower for free.
Yep, them and guard just straight up invalidate any armor in our army right now. It's either turn 1 mass infantry charge with goffs or msu deathskull spam trying to stay out of los all game and hope to outscore. Either way not super fun.
If there's something GW is consistent about, it's that they're consistently inconsistent, especially when it comes to treatment towards non-marine factions.
That's a fair point, but that extra 35pts plus upgrades does give you good bump in durability and output. And the deffrolla could actually let them win the occasional combat against small units.
It's worth considering that while trukks are hard to hide, battlewagons are impossible to hide.
If you want to keep something alive hiding is the only option.
That said, I toyed a bit with goff nobz, but I can't get my head to wrap around how a unit of well-equipped nobz is still more expensive than a unit of plague marines which have vastly superior melee and durability.
Big Trakk is btw. Most easy to hide. Low profile. Price in between Trukk and Wagon and stats too.
SemperMortis wrote: I asked a Marine buddy of mine to break out the most ridiculously OP list he could come up with utilizing all the free gear. Normal board, normal terrain (lots of LOS blocking terrain). Turn 1 he killed everything visible including all 3 units of my Kommandos. Turn 2 I got stuck in and did some decent dmg but by turn 4 it was all over...too much firepower for me to compete against, Plasma Inceptors just about 1 shot everything they look at...and they are cheaper then ever before.
Automatically Appended Next Post: With all of that said....I just don't see ANY Ork vehicles being remotely competitive against a SM list that can take that much massed anti-vehicle firepower for free.
But Semper, we get strategic reserves for free now. Simply outflank the enemy with all if your vehicles for an easy victory [/s]
In all seriousness though, we might actually be better off sticking everything in reserves that isn't going to be charging or completely hidden on turn one.
I remember in the days of 6/7th it was extremely common for people to hide about a third of their army in reserves, it was unusual to see someone who didnt.
Pretty much only Green Tide orks didnt, as everything was slow enough to never get anywhere if they were in reserves and nothing deepstriked.
Things to watch out for going forward against Marines.
Assault Terminators with TH/SS. They still have AoC and got significantly cheaper.
Heavy weapons...like all of them...all over the board in every single fething squad. There will not be a unit that is "Squishy" or that doesn't have special/heavy weapons in them.
Inceptors:.....HOLY CRAP. 240pts nets you 6 of them with Plasma Exterminators meaning they can combat squad them into squads of 3 and each squad of 3 can pump out 6D3 Plasma Shots with a 28' threat range (more if they advance).
Probably most annoying if your meta has a lot of IH players, Doctrines can be kept, so Iron Hands never leave Devastator Doctrine.
With general points drops and free upgrades be prepared for some suicide Melta squads...because why wouldn't you take a 100pt squad of 5 Marines armed with 3 Combi Meltas and 2 Multi-Meltas...and a PF just because
I hate to repeat this line but in my opinion the best way to deal with these new threats is to heavily utilize terrain. They have a lot of dakka, but its generally short to mid ranged (12-24') so stay out of range until you need to get stuck in. Abuse LoS terrain as much as possible and be incredibly careful when forward deploying Kommandos. The days of soaking up bolter fire and the occasional heavy weapon on turn 1 is effectively over. If you forward deploy them incorrectly, you are just handing your opponent free priority targets for weapons that they might not have been able to utilize otherwise.
In another multiverse, this could've been the orks.
Free kill saws and nobz at maybe 15 points? Dont mind if i do, 150 points of killsaw nobz.
Mega nobz at 27 points with free weapon upgrades? Sure thing!
Funny part is that I don't think it would be that crazy for us even if that did happen. At least with Arks of Omen limiting us to only one unit of Trukk boyz, we'd have to rely on a T2 charge to get most of our stuff across the board.
But I'd guarantee you that everyone else, particularly marine players, would cry chicken little and have us nerfed in a week before we'd even be able to see if it was worth crying over.
100pt squad of 5 Marines armed with 3 Combi Meltas and 2 Multi-Meltas...and a PF just because
This is whats making me wonder if squighogs are going to stay meta this season. i have already pulled kill rigs from my lists - everyone knows what they can do and there should be enough anti tank out there now to make them a liability.
if i did pull squighogs i dont know what i would sub in...drop the mek gunz and 10 grots, add in 30 snagga boyz, 30 stormboyz
Kill Rig [11 PL, 190pts]: 'Eavy Lobba, 4. Spirit of Gork, 6. Squiggly Curse, Butcha Boyz, Savage Horns and Hooves, Saw Blades, Stikka Kannon, Wurrtower
+ Dedicated Transport +
Trukk [4 PL, 70pts]: Big Shoota
++ Total: [115 PL, 2,000pts, 4CP] ++
A Grimdark New Year - 2nd - “Mork Purry” - now this is interesting! Blood Axe gang with tripple SAG!§! 3 Deffdreads and two battlewagons and tons of infantry and other characters.
Kill Rig [11 PL, 190pts]: 'Eavy Lobba, 4. Spirit of Gork, 6. Squiggly Curse, Butcha Boyz, Savage Horns and Hooves, Saw Blades, Stikka Kannon, Wurrtower
+ Dedicated Transport +
Trukk [4 PL, 70pts]: Big Shoota
++ Total: [115 PL, 2,000pts, 4CP] ++
A Grimdark New Year - 2nd - “Mork Purry” - now this is interesting! Blood Axe gang with tripple SAG!§! 3 Deffdreads and two battlewagons and tons of infantry and other characters.
Mark Perry Finished 7th not 2nd and it was a GT of 24 players, 22 of which played more than 2 games.
With that said, I think starting next month we are going to start seeing some realistic AoO results coming in. I still predict Marines run away with it.
Meganobz base 30pts with pk, saws 5pts kombis 10pts.
Termies base 33pts, free whatever they want.
....wtf? They even get chainfists for free which is their equiv for killsaws.
Stop complaining, have you tried "Forging the Narrative" harder? /s
Realistically Terminators have always been better than Meganobz in general. Even at 38pts (I think thats what they were) they were still better than terminators thanks to the 5+ Invuln they get naturally. But I want you to stop looking at Terminators and instead look at Assault Terminators. They now get TH/SS for 33pts each
Yeah, unfortunately Meganobz have always been second fiddle to terminators when it comes to raw stats barring our 2nd wound in 4th-7th ed (which usually didn't matter much since most weapons aimed at them were either AP2 or S8 for instant death back then), mainly because they lacked options that Nobz had back then, like the WAAAGH! banner and Painboy (until 6th/7th ed where Painboys became HQ's). Their main selling point was as a MANZ missile or as part of a Bully Boyz formation. The main thing terminators lacked compared to Meganobz was a cheap transport that we had, like the trukk, that was open topped, since Land Raiders were too expensive and easy to target. So thanks to having a delivery option, we could field them more consistently even though they weren't strictly better than terminators.
The closest we've had to that this edition was Trukkboyz MANZ missiles, but with Ark of Omens, that restricts our archetype on using that.
koooaei wrote: To be honest, manz have been way better than termies for quite some time. At least since 7th Ed.
Point for point a terminator has been better than a meganob for honestly longer than I can remember. The Manz synergize better within the ork list...and in my honest opinion, that is only recently (9th edition).
only reason the MANz missile was any good in the old times was because it was so cheap and required anti-tank level weapons to reliably get rid of it before it auto-killed some vehicles. MANz werent hard to get rid of, they were hard to get rid of efficiently. If you killed them with non-AP2 guns you dumped a LOT into them. If you killed them with AP2 guns then our vehicles were usually unscathed for another turn Terminators back then were just as deadly (in melee, stronger shooting and invuls of course not factoring here), but not as cheap and the 1W meant sometimes weak guns would take them down anyway. Theres also the squad limit as iirc termies have always been 5man minimum, manz were 3, and back then you only needed 1 klaw to reliably open tin cans. Theres a reason PKs in the old days were 25pts for the weapon alone lol
That strength died when 8th landed and PK's somehow became a bad weapon, since now they dont guarantee a kill if they land and arent that reliable either.
The good old days where a blob of boys was just a PK delivery system
MANz have only ever been good as either a missile that did a suicide run into a hard target, or as a brick that sits in the middle of the board and bullies things that comes close and being wholly not worth killing or going near.
I'd argue that Termies have mostly fit the brick archetype, or as deathstars. Both archetypes have been pretty big in the games history, and SMs always had the luxury of having their missile units being ranged rather than melee exclusive.
You're also forgetting shock assault and damage 3 with thunder hammers.
Before that, 3 base attacks was at least a distinct advantage.
At this point they'd essentially have to make killsaws free or at least 5 points for just the second one. I think the wargear giveaway on marines is going to get looked at at some point because it was clearly a kneejerk reaction based on tournament winrates. It just depends on whether they go up well above the 50% threshold, but I doubt they'll meet the 55% threshold their balance team said they're worried about. If people are successful with terminator heavy lists, they'll likely see a change, if not, they'll probably stay as is.
TedNugent wrote: You're also forgetting shock assault and damage 3 with thunder hammers.
Before that, 3 base attacks was at least a distinct advantage.
At this point they'd essentially have to make killsaws free or at least 5 points for just the second one. I think the wargear giveaway on marines is going to get looked at at some point because it was clearly a kneejerk reaction based on tournament winrates. It just depends on whether they go up well above the 50% threshold, but I doubt they'll meet the 55% threshold their balance team said they're worried about. If people are successful with terminator heavy lists, they'll likely see a change, if not, they'll probably stay as is.
realistically the biggest difference between Nobz and Marines is gone. Nobz had 2w to Marines 1. They had 3 attacks to the SM's 1. On Turn 1 its now 3 attacks across the board for all Terminators and the Terminators have 3 wounds to the Meganobz 3 wounds. Meganobz should have 4 wounds and 4 attacks to differentiate them and the fact they don't have a native Invuln save. Not to mention being stuck with a PK or having to pay through the nose for a pair of Killsaws. Realistically a pair of Killsaws should be a 5pt upgrade not 10.
Yeah cause at least dual killsaws gives another attack so it makes sense for it to not be "free"
But pk/saws are effectively identical w/o the dual saws....so wtf
Yeah, in the stats arms race of 9th ed, unfortunately we fell far behind, which is weird because you would think the T5 boost would have helped more, but unfortunately, the game has gotten so killy and our points have gone up enough that it's mostly a wash at best. Also doesn't help that our support units are either one shot wonders (KFF Big Mek) or effectively useless right now (Painboyz), so we only have the new revised WAAAGH! to give us a boost against the amount of firepower on the table. Only our HQ units and maybe Kill Rigs feel like they have the staying power they should have.
Our elites by far (barring Kommandos) don't feel really elite by most armies standards. I'm not saying I want to go back to the Nob Biker days, but I would like to feel like my Nobz/Meganobz can at least go toe to toe with most enemy units rather than feeling like they're marginally stronger boyz.
koooaei wrote: To be honest, manz have been way better than termies for quite some time. At least since 7th Ed.
Point for point a terminator has been better than a meganob for honestly longer than I can remember. The Manz synergize better within the ork list...and in my honest opinion, that is only recently (9th edition).
3 attacks vs 2. Meant 4 on the charge vs 3 on the charge back than.
Furious charge meant s9 on the charge. Which was a huge difference to s8 that termies had.
2 wounds vs 1 wound. Meant anything not s8 ap2 was wasted on manz.
Min squad of 3 vs min squad of 5. Which was all you needed to remove or at least invalidate basically any vehicle that can't fight before your manz.
Access to kombi-skorchas. Situational but really good to have.
And most importantly: trukks. 35 pt (45 with a ram and shoots) vs a 250pt+ land raider.
Later on we got simply amazing bully boyz that made manz one of the best unit in codex. I personally won a bunch of pretty competitive tourneys back than running bully boyz in trukks. Was no gt, but people ran cutthroat stuff like imp knights + eldar knights + scat bikes, invisible deathstars, unkillable daemon stars, etc.
Manz were also great in 8th where you could drop 10 and go for a charge with +1 bonus. Even in 9th they were somewhat passable in min squads foots logging or like 5 in a wagon.
yeah ive used manz even recently as an objective parker. 3 manz with kombi-rokkits especially as badmoonz was 3d3 30" S8 AP2/3 attacks that was parked in cover on an objective and could usually hold their own against most things that reached them in the midfield. It annoys me theyre more expensive than the superior in every way except raw toughness termies now.
MANz are S10 but S10 doesnt mean much these days, S8 is really the only threshold you need especially for melee.
The toughness boost WOULD have made orks extremely annoying to get rid of if they didnt also at the same exact time completely screw over our morale. Literally dropped our survivability in the same wave they increased the toughness because morale hurt us THAT badly
The toughness boost WOULD have made orks extremely annoying to get rid of if they didnt also at the same exact time completely screw over our morale. Literally dropped our survivability in the same wave they increased the toughness because morale hurt us THAT badly
for boys, going to T5, the effective -1 to be wounded roughly washes out with morale losses, but it feels a heck of alot less bad to lose to a wound than morale. there is more agency in protecting against failed wounds too - i can spend the points to have a kff mek around, or choose to run units with a 6++. there is absolutely nothing i can do to mitigate morale that doesnt cost me 2cp and require i have nobs around.
it absolutely dumps on anything that costs more than 10ppm
I saw ao40k talk a bit about deathskulls and how they'll be good at outscoring a lot of armies which got me thinking that they will probably be our best bet in this meta over goffs. I feel like mini meks might become really useful especially for late game obj contesting or possible behind enemy lines shenanigans, assuming your taking weirdboyz to da jump them around. Might be giving up an auto max assassinate, but the tradeoff seems worth it to keep your opponents scoring at bay.
Tomsug wrote: Don' t understand. What changed to make DS so great?
No changes. I think they just also know that infantry spam is gonna be our only option and in combination with greentide getting better, it just makes sense that DS are gonna likely be our strongest option. Basically we're probably gonna get tabled regardless of the clan, so it's better to try and outscore your opponent by a lot early using DS.
flaming tadpole wrote: I saw ao40k talk a bit about deathskulls and how they'll be good at outscoring a lot of armies which got me thinking that they will probably be our best bet in this meta over goffs. I feel like mini meks might become really useful especially for late game obj contesting or possible behind enemy lines shenanigans, assuming your taking weirdboyz to da jump them around. Might be giving up an auto max assassinate, but the tradeoff seems worth it to keep your opponents scoring at bay.
Da Jump has been nerfed to only teleport "CORE" units now, so characters are basically off limits so I doubt mini-meks are worth taking.
I play little bit with the new AoO rules and I have to say:
1. I don' t like the new detachement rules. “Gives more flexibility” is a marketing bs.
This restrict the flexibility a lot. In good old days there used to be 2 detachement as a standard. Every unit type (FA elite, HS..) had it s own allowing you to have 12 slots of such type in 2 outriders with no troop tax and just a small HQ tax.
Now, you can get max 6 slots of any type except 12 troops and the option for spamming the Elite Characters + extra tweak on LOW
All spams of HS, Elites or FA are gone.
You have to build unified semi-like-batalion detachement.
2. To build anything heavier or faste like “speed mob” you have to “cheat” with similar units across unit types + characters of all kind - like Squighog boyz for free Nobz without slot, wagons and trukks in combination with FA. Generaly - I won' t be surprise if we see a lot of hero hammer of all kind to fix “not enought HS/ELITE/FA slots..
3. If you check the secondaries, You need troops and infantry desperately.
4.There could be a lot of characters on the table I guess - see point 2. - so Assasinate will be very common. Gear up to Kill the characters will be nice. However, you cannot take Stomp if that happen.
5. On the other other side, if everybody give up Assasination, you can give up Bring it down too - same chapter. Interesting for Killrigs, because they have Char but are huge vehicles in fact.
6. My question to all of you - what does it mean for other armies? Tyranids, Necrons, all kinds of eldars. A lot of you plays second army of such type. How does the cap on non-troops unit affect your builds?
I would like to predict the common type of target in the new meta.
I see new detachements restricting toys before boyz.
I see new secondaries prefering boyz before toys.
I see free equip for space marines infantry which is again “boyz before toys”.
So we can be in heavy T4/W2 or W1 meta soon.
And orks like to run counter meta and I want to run my toys and let the boyz sip the beer in the backstage
If Goffs alpha strike goes the way of the dodo, we might be well off going for infantry spam with Deathskulls.
Something like;
Squigboss
Weirdboy
20x Snagga Boys
30x Grots
9x Burna Boys
30x Kommandos
10x MANz 2x Mini Meks
15x Stormboyz
Battlewagon
2x Kill Rig
That gives you 116 infantry models which are all obsec. You are relying heavily on the Boss and the rigs to do all of the heavy lifting, but you might just be able to purely outscore.
Afrodactyl wrote: If Goffs alpha strike goes the way of the dodo, we might be well off going for infantry spam with Deathskulls.
Something like;
Squigboss
Weirdboy
20x Snagga Boys
30x Grots
9x Burna Boys
30x Kommandos
10x MANz 2x Mini Meks
15x Stormboyz
Battlewagon
2x Kill Rig
That gives you 116 infantry models which are all obsec. You are relying heavily on the Boss and the rigs to do all of the heavy lifting, but you might just be able to purely outscore.
Nice one chaps.
I'm taking the boyz to a tourney this weekend but it's combat patrol, so we are playing Only War from the core book. Gonna have to go back and look at that. Free trait and relic at least.
List is a Goff patrol: warboss w/ hwkc and brutal, mek, boyz mob, trukk, 8 stormboyz, 5 kommandos and an all klaw deff dread (my collection has no beast snagga units).Just not sure if I should do any specialist mob as I don't want to lose the Goff keyword on anyone.
Afrodactyl wrote: If Goffs alpha strike goes the way of the dodo, we might be well off going for infantry spam with Deathskulls.
Something like;
Squigboss
Weirdboy
20x Snagga Boys
30x Grots
9x Burna Boys
30x Kommandos
10x MANz 2x Mini Meks
15x Stormboyz
Battlewagon
2x Kill Rig
That gives you 116 infantry models which are all obsec. You are relying heavily on the Boss and the rigs to do all of the heavy lifting, but you might just be able to purely outscore.
a solid ravenwing list making the rounds has 40 multi melta shots by accident, tons of S6 ap1 1d shots, all moving 14"+ adv and shoot with a 4++
iron hands are just as if not more busted
part of the power of kill rigs is psychological - people dont have the tools to effectively deal with them at range so they try to play around them. That advantage is about to be gone in the most absurd way.
orks are going to have to go old school this season - maximum body count, flood the board, screen out enemy reserves, and hold on to objectives.
So... 12 units of 10 boys? and a bunch of other things?
Also BS seem to not do what i want it to. In my arks of omen detatchment im putting 3 units of kommandos and a unit of trukkboy Nobz with powerklaws. yet it complains and says i can only have 3 units of elite. As far as i can see i can have 6?
Edit: Okay ive seen the mistake now.
But the mistake just made it insanely clear how much i will hate the new arks of omen system. So you have to pick your compulsary type? You couldnt have 6 heavy support slots AND lets say, 4 elite slots? What the hell? You cant even have 4 fast attack slots AND 4 elite slots? This new system is stupid! I thought you could!
You couldnt have 6 heavy support slots AND lets say, 4 elite slots? What the hell? You cant even have 4 fast attack slots AND 4 elite slots? This new system is stupid! I thought you could!
AoO detachment allows you to skip on troops if yours suck, and pivot in to fast attack or heavy without spending 2-3cp for an additional detachment to get more than 3 units.
a battalion would have been capped at 6 elite, 3 fast attack, and 3 heavy. it would cost you 2cp, 1 HQ and 1 troop to get 2 more of each, or 3cp and an HQ
AoO does pose challenges for ork builds - our crap leadership forces MSU and our units are cheap, 1155 points fills out 9 infantry slots in elite/fast attack. in deathguard i can drop 1200 on 3 elite slots alone and not be hamstringing myself
AoO detachment allows you to skip on troops if yours suck, and pivot in to fast attack or heavy without spending 2-3cp for an additional detachment to get more than 3 units.
That is an offcial marketing. But this argument is invalid. You had an option to take one Outrider/Vangauard etc detach with 6 of selected slots + some of others. And you could take two or three of such detachements and you had enough cps to do it. No troops tax. Big variability of lists. Absolutely no necessary for takeing the troops.
Twou outriders was 12 FA, 4 HS and 4 Elite slots.
But now with “no troops taxe”?
You can have 6 FA and no more than 3 HS and 3 Elite so you HAVE TO TAKE A TROOPS because you simply do not have enough slots.
Not sure, the prob with going infantry heavy is, that has soon as you touch a shooter heavy army like IG or tau, your castle will crumble really fast, even with kommandos and waggons. If you can't hold them till turn 2 its GG.
I have my doubt's we have the resilience currently for that.
Currently going for full aggression, 3x4squigboys + 3x4warbikes + 3x10kommandos
Warbikers move 20, no-mansland is 24', even on a defensive deploy that's like an 8' charge
You can also give them claw.
That's 1020pts.
Oh if your salty about that wait till you hear about IG cavalry! pregame 6' +12" move +1' trait +2' order = 20' turn oh and they cost 200pts for 10.. check their profile and your pant's turn brown.
7. Free startegic reserves - people are happy they can come out of the reserves for free.
This mean:
- a lot of people try to do it, so the screen with cheap fast lomg range shooting units will be importanf
- but not so much. Come from the reserves / DS is nothing great. Most of the armies deopes to 9” charge, which is garbage. Orks has big adventage with this, because we can utilise ramming speed, free rerol and Meka dread +1 dice. But nothing to write home about…
- generali coming in T2 is a garbage. A big garbage. If you go second, what happens?
- T1 your IG buddy shots a big part of your units downs. Than your turn and you shoot with small amount of your unita and have no chance to charge.
- T2 and second round of IG shooting. 50% of your list is down. AFTER that you come out of reserves with some of your units..
… as I said = garbage..
… but a lot of people try to do it.
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Forceride wrote: Not sure, the prob with going infantry heavy is, that has soon as you touch a shooter heavy army like IG or tau, your castle will crumble really fast, even with kommandos and waggons. If you can't hold them till turn 2 its GG.
I have my doubt's we have the resilience currently for that.
Currently going for full aggression, 3x4squigboys + 3x4warbikes + 3x10kommandos
Warbikers move 20, no-mansland is 24', even on a defensive deploy that's like an 8' charge
You can also give them claw.
Forceride wrote: Hey Tomsug check the new IG cavalry, 20' turn for 200pts and 10 of them with that profile, Yikes..
Oh forgot they also take +1 to charge! LoL
Squad of 10 averages 21 attacks, 42 hits (yep not kidding), at S6 -1AP. So thats 28 Dead Ork boyz a turn
Forceride wrote: Hey Tomsug check the new IG cavalry, 20' turn for 200pts and 10 of them with that profile, Yikes..
Oh forgot they also take +1 to charge! LoL
Squad of 10 averages 21 attacks, 42 hits (yep not kidding), at S6 -1AP. So thats 28 Dead Ork boyz a turn
The only saving grace is that as cavalry they can't just kool-aid man through the walls and kill you that way, but with orders and other buffs, they hit waaaaay above their points cost. You have to hope that they get chokepointed between terrain and get them to make a bad charge so you can kill them via shooting.
Tomsug wrote: - T1 your IG buddy shots a big part of your units downs. Than your turn and you shoot with small amount of your unita and have no chance to charge.
Are you using terrain to hide? I suggest checking rules on what "obscuring" does.
IG for all their firepower still can't shoot through walls.
(yes they have indirect. Thanks to that getting nerfed in new book you are looking maybe squad of mortars at most. If 3 mortars shoot half of your army offboard in 1 turn with -1 to hit and +1 to your saves something's seriously wrong with your army).
At least here getting sight on turn 1 is pretty damn hard. If you have multiple questor knight level models then sure some are visible. But 1 plus other stuff hides well if you want to hide. Even more easily if half the army is in reserves.
Vineheart01 wrote: Killakanz are so close to being great again. Theyre moderately cheap for a 5W T5 3+ body, thats not bad at all. The problem is STILL their leadership....durability is nice but when you only need to take 1 to possibly lose the rest its kind of a moot benefit. nevermind running a full squad as you just gotta kill 3 in 1 turn and you can almost guarantee the rest will run away because of the "half strength" crap.
If their leadership was a nonissue i feel we'd be using them a lot right now
Is the CC capability a must have?
Because if you can live without it, maybe you should consider a squadron of Grot Tanks.
1 higher ld, same bs/T/W/ramshackle. And each one can pack a KMB.
KMB damage can be a bit swingy, but with just a few good rolls even 1 of these things can cause alot of pain.
And you can play it safe & stick with rockets.
Another unit to consider is a Grot Mega-Tank- chock full of KMBs (or Rokkits if you prefer)
Tomsug wrote: - T1 your IG buddy shots a big part of your units downs. Than your turn and you shoot with small amount of your unita and have no chance to charge.
Are you using terrain to hide? I suggest checking rules on what "obscuring" does.
Ok, I admit that I spent last 2-3 years playing buggy armies covering 60% of my deployment zone so I ´m pretty TAUmatized.
Anyway, two points could be relevant anyway:
1. Units comming from reserves can shoot no earlier than T2 and do anything else no earlier than T3 from 5. Few exceptions. And that is a lot.
2. Good screening would be super killy in such meta. A year ago I played againts guy from spanish national team with fast necron list. I ´ve put my koptas and wazbooms in reserves. He screened the whole field except area stucked by my own units by his movement T1 and de facto killed me 900p.
I did the same trick againts Eldar guy who dinished 2nd later on last year Prague Open after that and almost did the same. Of course, the Gork sits in the details and there are some different details depending who is the guy doing this trick. The good guys do it right. I ´m mediocre guy…
Vineheart01 wrote: Killakanz are so close to being great again. Theyre moderately cheap for a 5W T5 3+ body, thats not bad at all. The problem is STILL their leadership....durability is nice but when you only need to take 1 to possibly lose the rest its kind of a moot benefit. nevermind running a full squad as you just gotta kill 3 in 1 turn and you can almost guarantee the rest will run away because of the "half strength" crap.
If their leadership was a nonissue i feel we'd be using them a lot right now
Is the CC capability a must have?
Because if you can live without it, maybe you should consider a squadron of Grot Tanks.
1 higher ld, same bs/T/W/ramshackle. And each one can pack a KMB.
KMB damage can be a bit swingy, but with just a few good rolls even 1 of these things can cause alot of pain.
And you can play it safe & stick with rockets.
Another unit to consider is a Grot Mega-Tank- chock full of KMBs (or Rokkits if you prefer)
Grot tanks have the same amount of firepower as the Kans per point, but the Kans have more wounds and can actually defend themselves if they get charged. Granted, the tanks are faster, so you might be able to keep them from being charged.
The Mega tank might be a decent choice, 7 rokkits/kmbs for the same cost as 4 kans makes for a a passable suicide gunship.
The main issue with the Grot Tanks, from where I'm standing at least, is that they're FA as opposed to HS. I don't know about everyone else, but I need my 3 FA slots for my Squighogs, and my Arks choice is Elites. If I could trim anything from my list it would be the HS slots.
Our FA choices are arguably the best things we have in the book outside of HQ choices, so it's hard to justify a FA slot over Squighogs, any of the Buggies, Koptas or Stormboys.
I don't see any major benefit of taking Grot Tanks over the alternatives, unless someone can show me something I've missed.
The more I work on AoO list the more I detachement insanely stupid.
There is simply not enough slots. It' s the same like it used to be with the speedmob. It' s hard to even fill 2000p without LOW, teo wazbooms, huge squads that die instantly on morale or TROOPS! Go to hell with your “no troops tax”! This is the biggest troop tax ever…
Yeah, Grot Mega Tank is fun! In average 7 hits 8/-3/D6. No idea why is it a FA…
Forceride wrote: Hey Tomsug check the new IG cavalry, 20' turn for 200pts and 10 of them with that profile, Yikes..
Oh forgot they also take +1 to charge! LoL
Squad of 10 averages 21 attacks, 42 hits (yep not kidding), at S6 -1AP. So thats 28 Dead Ork boyz a turn
I hope you haven't forgotten the 2+S on charge, rerolls and MW to vehicles It's a fortune IG codex is currently illegal by GW own admission.
I still need to try out kans.. i don't think its a turn 1 unit... reason is you want them to shoot not CC, that's a bonus.. so leave them in reserve. I think their nice for 120pts.
I return the comment from Afrodactyl on grot tanks and mega-tanks, being FA there are better choices.
In my list's the only shooting unit i take in FA is ruukkatruck with nitro squigs, it's really reliable doing wounds to just about anything with's weapons profile and the -1W
I haven't played against new IG cavalry too many times yet, but it doesn't really seem like they're any major threat to orks or even most armies tbh. They have zero synergies with the rest of their army. You can't keep them back to use as a counter charge because they're too squishy and will just get shot off the board. You can hide them but then we just charge the rest of their army and they can clean up the scraps after they're shooting phase which won't really be much. So they're only real use is a turn 1 missile unit, but you can screen that pretty easily. Worst case scenario is they kill a 125pt kommando squad turn 1 and then die and/or wait for us to charge their whole army and they clean up a damaged squad or two after the game is essentially decided already.
They would be played as a distraction, even if their shot, their so cheap it's really not a issue, and if their opponent does not clean them it's guaranteed to be in you deployment making problems.
Another thing is your dedicating shooting to remove a throwaway unit, shooting that could go into tanks which will quickly cause issues moving forward. And yes their a 1 turn missile, but we do the same with kommandos at 375pts... and while kommandos are bit more survival their also a lot less killy. Pick your poison.
Synergies with the rest of the armies really don't matter if you sacrifice 200pts and keep 1000+ back. Also does not need synergies to overperform.
Really depends how it's used, it's like our kommandos but a lot better.
Obviously you have combos like the new karkin or what ever their called spreading 6MW but that's granted to be nerfed.. but yeah you can pick those if you want something even better.
Plus i never said their the best unit around, but it complements IG very well as a throw away... something that it would be auto take in our armies.
There is also a third point, which is mental games, since knowing your opponent has them you need to deploy in a different way...
Anyway this is just a point of view i wished to share at the humongous discrepancy between IG which is supposed to be a shooty armie but has a really good cavalry and us a melee armies which has a rather more mediocre one... My squigboys are always focused fired and deleted from game, my fail at hide them, my fault.
flaming tadpole wrote: I haven't played against new IG cavalry too many times yet, but it doesn't really seem like they're any major threat to orks or even most armies tbh. They have zero synergies with the rest of their army. You can't keep them back to use as a counter charge because they're too squishy and will just get shot off the board. You can hide them but then we just charge the rest of their army and they can clean up the scraps after they're shooting phase which won't really be much. So they're only real use is a turn 1 missile unit, but you can screen that pretty easily. Worst case scenario is they kill a 125pt kommando squad turn 1 and then die and/or wait for us to charge their whole army and they clean up a damaged squad or two after the game is essentially decided already.
Current IG is a multi threat turn 1 alpha strike… you have the rough riders as a long range charge threat that can absolutely trade up on points unless properly screened… they receive orders and buffs and charge turn 1.. run the lord solar up with at least 2 units and it’s a pretty brutal combo.
You have your mandatory Barbarint key kaskrin, again buffed up with orders, and the mortal wound, and deepstrike multiple targets to death…
You keep back another kaskrin unit or place it in transport….
All supported by multiple cheap plasma leman russ (and a gatekeeper relic battle cannon) long range fire support and sentinels who can also be buffed up…
The only issue is multiple units want orders and they all kind of love the lord solar full rerolls… but it’s good to either have a super durable command squad or ursela creed +1 str orders..
I may have missed this in the 170 pages of this topic, but does the Rule of 3 prevent taking (for example) 3 units of 3 Deff dreds, which per codex become 9 separate units once deployed in the AoOmen detachment?
Goreshrek wrote: I may have missed this in the 170 pages of this topic, but does the Rule of 3 prevent taking (for example) 3 units of 3 Deff dreds, which per codex become 9 separate units once deployed in the AoOmen detachment?
Nope-it's three copies of the same datasheet. Pay attention to deployment, but you can take 9 Deff Dreads as long as they only take three slots.
flaming tadpole wrote: I haven't played against new IG cavalry too many times yet, but it doesn't really seem like they're any major threat to orks or even most armies tbh. They have zero synergies with the rest of their army. You can't keep them back to use as a counter charge because they're too squishy and will just get shot off the board. You can hide them but then we just charge the rest of their army and they can clean up the scraps after they're shooting phase which won't really be much. So they're only real use is a turn 1 missile unit, but you can screen that pretty easily. Worst case scenario is they kill a 125pt kommando squad turn 1 and then die and/or wait for us to charge their whole army and they clean up a damaged squad or two after the game is essentially decided already.
they will get shot off the board and cant be used as a counter charge? What shooting do you intend to shoot them with as a goff army? they are very much a dangerous unit against orks. And you can hide them. theres plenty of obscurring terrain on WTC style maps. hell even on GW tables with those 4 large squares. while i know they cant go through it, if they can move 20 inches, thats pretty good.
Sorry shooting I meant more for other armies, grammar is hard. I do understand their killy potential, they'd be a nightmare for knights. My point is that orks don't care if you annihilate an 80-125 pt squad turn 1. They're movement isn't that insane that you should have trouble screening them or preventing them from doing a multi-charge. If they hang back turn 1 then they die to kommandos because you should be waaghing turn 1 10/10 times against guard in this meta unless your doing some half army in reserves type shenanigans.
flaming tadpole wrote: Sorry shooting I meant more for other armies, grammar is hard. I do understand their killy potential, they'd be a nightmare for knights. My point is that orks don't care if you annihilate an 80-125 pt squad turn 1. They're movement isn't that insane that you should have trouble screening them or preventing them from doing a multi-charge. If they hang back turn 1 then they die to kommandos because you should be waaghing turn 1 10/10 times against guard in this meta unless your doing some half army in reserves type shenanigans.
I dont see my self waaaghing turn 1 in most cases, even against Imperial guard. Unless they went first and moved up the board.
Most proper GT tables have proper terrain that allows you to hide most your army in obscurring anyway. have you seen the standard GW tables with those 4 massive buildings? They'd be amazing against GW.
Unless you use really big units you should be able to hide most things. If i dont use evil sunz and plan to turn 1 waaagh regardless if i went first or not, then i need to get turn 1, otherwise im dead. because playing Goffs and maybe using rigs and squig hogs, i wont reach the enemy turn 1 if i start in obscurring.
But i WILL be obscurred, because playing the game, the way where you stand outside of obscurring simply hoping to get turn 1 to may be reach the enemy and may be win, is a terrible way to play.
But on another note i am trying out ideas with evil sunz turn 1 charge in mind actually. So it might work. But if you go Goffs, i dont see how you should get enough soldiers to the front on turn 1, while still remaining in obscurring.
So ill be starting in obscurring, if my enemy gets turn 1 theres a decent chance ill waaagh round 1 because he will most likely move closer. If i get turn 1, i wont be waaaghing in most cases.
Turn 1 Beardedragon? Bikes, Stormboyz, kommandos, deftkoptas, and the buggies with flamers... truckboys but nobz, you get more punch, or meganobz even more.. not sure, can't see anything in heavy worth while for T1
Also you don't get proper T1 HQ since nothing rides that fast, unless you put a boss on the truck.. Weird boy for the jump but it's 9' charge...
ymmv, but I think if I do that then I lose all my kommandos turn 1 because they likely aren't making many, if any, charges and are gonna be the only viable target. Unless you keeping them all in reserves, but then your probably only making like 1 charge with them next turn. I haven't practiced much with mass reserves yet so idk if it's gonna be our way going forward this meta or not. With DS I could see it being good.
Forceride wrote: Turn 1 Beardedragon? Bikes, Stormboyz, kommandos, deftkoptas, and the buggies with flamers... truckboys but nobz, you get more punch, or meganobz even more.. not sure, can't see anything in heavy worth while for T1 Also you don't get proper T1 HQ since nothing rides that fast, unless you put a boss on the truck.. Weird boy for the jump but it's 9' charge...
Edit: When i say waaagh turn 1, i mean the normal waaagh. I find no reason why you shouldnt be able to call a speed waaagh or great waaagh turn 1. By all means that can make sense a lot of the times.
Im not saying you CANT charge turn one, im saying, that building your army so that you HAVE to do this is probably not going to be a good idea.
Making a turn 1 charge if it makes sense isnt bad, especially if your opponent went first and thus moved closer, but if you force yourself in to playing that your army build has to go first, and you are going to turn 1 waaagh no matter what, then it doesnt take a super experienced opponent to simply screen out your frontal charge with chaff units. The only thing he has to deal with is a unit of trukk boys, 3 units of kommandos and 3 units of stormboys. because all your warbikers will be bottlenecked in the ruin path ways, and your 7 units of stormboys/kommandos/trukk boys will probably be forced to attack easy chaff infantry to a degree, where you will end up attacking 1 of his units with 2 of yours, because of how he deployed his units.
Especially in this new meta where space marines have roughly 400 more points to go with.
Also, the only way to make a turn 1 charge properly with deffkoptas, when YOU get turn 1 is by using ramming speed. They cant advance and charge, and "only" move 14 inches. While 14 is great, they still cant advance and charge, so if they stand on the deployment zone itself you have a 10 inch charge which you will probably fail without ramming speed. But most people dont really stand directly on the deployment zone but probably a bit behind it on terrain so in most cases, this 10 inch charge will end up being an 11 or 12" charge.
I once played against an evil sunz player who had exactly stormboys, kommandos and warbikers and what not and i figured he would go for a turn 1 charge, so i just blocked up the frontline with 3 units of kommandos.
Forcing your enemy to make a crappy turn 1 charge really isnt that difficult, thats why ive played most my 9th edition games with the mind set that i dont WANT to charge turn 1, unless it makes sense to do so. But forcing yourself to having to go turn 1, just makes any experienced player put their most crappy units in the front, or screen out path ways so that warbikers cant get through.
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flaming tadpole wrote: ymmv, but I think if I do that then I lose all my kommandos turn 1 because they likely aren't making many, if any, charges and are gonna be the only viable target. Unless you keeping them all in reserves, but then your probably only making like 1 charge with them next turn. I haven't practiced much with mass reserves yet so idk if it's gonna be our way going forward this meta or not. With DS I could see it being good.
I went to a few GTs with 30 kommandos as a goff army. in most battles my kommandos were still very much active by round 2 because you either place them in obscurring if the building has windows, or inside the building if its a solid massive building with no windows.
In most cases, the only way to kill the kommandos is by charging them. If you put them 9" from the enemy deployment zone and you dont get turn 1, they are dead. 100%.
If you put them more defensively, maybe in a windowless building 6 inches in front of your deployment zone, you are close enough that you can attack their units going up to objectives, but far enough away that the enemy cant go around the building to shoot them.
Its kinda difficult to really write its easier to show. But my point is, out of most my games, at GTs and locals, my kommandos dying round 1? didnt really happen.
Tomsug wrote: Yeah, there are two big problems with the opponents and their deployment.
First, they tend to deploy in cover and out of LOS if I have a shooting army. Second, they deploy in the back of their deploy, if I have a melee army.
Beardragon, thanks for a good analasys. Especially I agree on how to deploy Komamndos.
But this is a relevant point tearing down the charge T1 concept. I made a lot of experiments about it before the Speedmob come on the tables.
What you need is the AVERAGE charge range about 28-30”. What we get is mostly about 23-25”.
That is simply not enough. Not reliable enough.
Yea.. well today ill be trying out some evil sunz shinanigans by coincidence against Admech. My point will be attempting to go turn 1 charge if that makes sense, but if it doesnt (and it probably wont) then ill be going for a turn 2 charge. Im not doing it because of our talk its really just a coincidence.
But thats already the thing isnt it. if you ARENT going for a turn 1 charge, why the hell are you even playing evil sunz with a melee army? The opponent usually is close enough to your forces by round 2 that you could easily charge them even with a goff or death skulls army. We will have to see if going for a round 2 charge might be relevant still with evil sunz. It might, or it might just be a waste of my extra movement.
But what ever, ill be trying out evil sunz. But even if i do that, i still wont put my kommandos in a suicide position if they dont get turn 1. But i still have warbikers and stormboys + warboss on bike. I also have 2 less evil sunz related units in 2 rigs with 10 boys in it. 1 with squig hide tyres, and one with rezmekkas reddest paint.
I dont know if i expect a win, but it'll be fun to try out. I suppose if i get turn 1 i can still move up in obscurring, and then have my stormboys fly 20 inches afterwards. That way at least even his backline is threatened. By having 2 rigs with boys in it i dont feel like i can afford a unit of trukkboys though. Which would probably be a good addition otherwise. or even Deffkoptas. maybe.
But its not a super serious army, but i did feel like i wanted to try it out.
I see the point of ES in move twice strat. A lot of interesting stuff can be done with it.
For example - if go first you can roadblok half of the map 3.1” in front of the opponent CC army with few warbikers with their 34” move for about 100p.
Or you can hide the Koptas speedmob style of fight.
ES aren't bad at all I don't think. If nothing else it'll be short games that are basically over by end of turn 2 one way or the other after charging the whole army.
I think if I do that then I lose all my kommandos turn 1 because they likely aren't making many, if any, charges
they are starting 12-9" off the enemy line and move 6", how are you not making 3-6" charges rerolled?
I probably play on slightly different tables. Usually ends up being a good 10”+ charge for me assuming the opponent doesn’t deploy right on the edge.
The rules for Kommandos is you get to start the game anywhere you want thats more than 9' from your enemies deployment zone or any forward deployed units they have. Turn 1 WAAAGH you get a 9.5' movement which means you have threat range to the end of their deployment zone. As far as getting shot off the table...well yeah that is a risk, which is why you put them in terrain turn 1 because then they become more durable than Marines pt for pt (3+ cover save). To kill 1 Marine with bolters takes 18 shots, 18 shots, 12 hits, 6 wounds 2 dmg 18 shots = 18pts dead. To kill a Kommando In cover takes 13.5 shots. 9 hits, 3 wounds 1 failed save. 13.5 shots to kill 11pts and you can theoretically find a piece of cover that also gives you -1 to hit So if they really want to waste that much firepower to kill 11pt models...thats a win in and of itself.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Incognito15 wrote: So ive got a 1000 pt dbls tourney in a month and wondered what people are liking.
Boys and snagga boyz seem to have improved with the AOC nerf.
I dont see a point in burna, tankbusta, or flash gitz still.
I thought foot heavy Goff is way to go but IG with tanks seems like itll
remove us easily.
You now have 6 Bomb Squigs instead of 4, you have the same # of squads but you have 3 squig rider squads of 3 so less chance of morale being an issue, you also have fleshed out your last Kommando squad and given all 3 of them a Breacha Ram which on a Goff unit/Waaaagh turn is S8 so it wounds everything you will face on a 2+. Against Marines a Kommando gets 3 attacks, 2 hits, 1.33 wounds and does 0.44dmg. The Breacha Kommando gets 2 attacks, 1.33 hits and 1.48dmg (assuming cover for both).
You have a lot more threat potential in those kommandos, and if you deploy them last you can threat overload a section of their army by just dumping 30! Kommandos on turn 1.
Had a game last night vs my mates death guard. We let the death guard have aoc since they are pretty terrible without it. I decided to try goffs first for the greentide list. First turn waaaghed, da jumped some burna boys to clear his pox walker screen so kommandos/stormboyz could get to his deamon prince which all worked really well. charged his rhinos carrying his plague marines with the other kommandos, stormboyz, and zagstruck and blew them up. He had horrible luck on one and lost half the squad inside. Turn 2 was basically just cleaning up his backline and the game was pretty much over. Final score I think was 100-50. I did try out trukk nobz in this one and was pretty underwhelmed but that was mostly because big choppas are useless against death guard -1 damage and also didn't get them into combat turn 1, so they were just obj camping until late in the game when I just yolo da jumped them into a death shroud squad which they killed like 1 of then got wiped (that was with warpath on them too). I think they could be good against sm obviously, but I don't think they're gonna end up replacing trukk manz for me.
Burnaboyz were fantastic. So useful for clearing screen for turn 1 charge if your trying to build your army to do that and cheap as chips so it makes your opponent not want to dedicate much firepower to them. They went on to clear his other poxwalker squad off an obj and finish off a damaged plague marine squad. Definitely plan on keeping them in the build going forward. Since guard are gonna be so prevalent I might try out nobz again but with all combi-skorchas since they're only 5 pts now. Them plus burnaboyz I feel like you could clear a lot of infantry turn 1.
Definitely think I'm gonna be switching to DS instead of Goffs. The slight damage bump from goffs isn't really needed with mass choppa attacks and playing against DG who can pump out a good amount of mw's like most of the top armies made me realize the 5+ on top the obj secured is way more useful. Just my two cents anyways.
I see the point of ES in move twice strat. A lot of interesting stuff can be done with it.
For example - if go first you can roadblok half of the map 3.1” in front of the opponent CC army with few warbikers with their 34” move for about 100p.
Or you can hide the Koptas speedmob style of fight.
Redder paint is also pretty interesting.
Adv+charge seems to be pretty useless imho.
well. i won the fight, but only with 2 points.
He ran over 100 soldiers, and literally put half his army (960 points) in to reserve and he got turn 1. He shot off one kill rig from the board turn 1 which was my bad, but thats about it. in return he had moved his laser chickens up (the one shooting the rig) the board which i tied up with a unit of kommandos and warbikers, so those chickens werent an issue all game afterwards. When i got my turn 1 i went for a waaagh, because if i hadnt i would be shot to pieces with the new reserve rules. i needed an army wide 5++ to survive. Well it was either that, or sacrifice 2 units to screen the sides, and then just hide and hope for the best. But i figured i would need to deny him as many points as possible as early as possible, so i went for it. But the issue remains that he can always deploy in his own deployment zone, which he did, because i had clogged up the sides.
So i moved up and tied up as many things as i could. I denied him VP on round 2, and he got 4 VP round 3, but he chewed through my army pretty fast turn 4 and 5 and came back pretty hard.
The issue was that while evil sunz were fast, hell i even had "faster than yous" trait on my warlord, they are not killy. And he ran Lucius so all damage 1 attacks he had +1 save against. My evil sunz damage one attacks didnt really do a lot. I had over 100 models i had to kill and my ap1 attacks had their ap ignored.
Then you can cast transhuman on some of them, then electropriests gave fight last to others.
Over all, i dont feel like him putting them in reserve made the game harder, it just made me able to deny him all VP on round 2. On the other hand, had he stayed with all units on the board and were smart with his deployment he would have units that could now move up.
But its really scary, the new reserve rules. They are definitely not made for melee armies, once again making melee armies harder to play. Because all the units coming in from reserve have a free turn shooting my units that i couldnt tie up. They come in, they shoot, they now did their part.
I come in, i have to charge, i might fail and die the next round.
The new meta means that we essentially need to have super cheap infantry ready to just screen out the sides that we dont mind dying, so maybe having more than 20 grots is ideal? maybe have 40 grots, so you have one for backline objective, 1 for good bits, and if the enemy reserves a ton of units, 20 grots, 10 for each side, that can run up and screen out so he has to deploy them in his own deployment zone. But whether grots move fast enough i dont know.
Hello chaps, anyone know if we are able to use this Strat from Arks of Omen to include more than one Specialist Mob?
HEROIC SUPPORT1CP
Core Stratagem – Requisition Stratagem
Use this Stratagem before the battle, when you are mustering your army. If a Detachment ability (excluding Gene-sect) would limit the number of times you can include a unit in that Detachment to 1, you can include a maximum of 2 of that unit in that Detachment instead. You can only use this Stratagem once.
Hi, just started out with orks and trying to make a 1000 pts list to begin with. Not trying to be too competetive, I just mainly want to use Evil Sunz and warboss on warbike for the Speedwaagh. I've already got 2 squads of boyz, 5 warbikes, 8 burna boyz + 2 Spanners and a Snazzwagon.
Spoiler:
++ Arks of Omen Detachment (Orks) [60 PL, 4CP, 1,000pts] ++
tneva82 wrote: Yes. That's what it's intended for(among other similar restrictions)
Hmm btw does it apply only to 1 restriction or all? Aka is it 2 warboss+1 specialist mob or reverse or mayhap you get 1 more of each?
Heroic support
if a detachment ability would limit the number of times you can include a unit in that detachment to 1, you can include a maximum of 2 of that unit in that detachment instead.
now that you ask it, i read that as increasing once per detachment restrictions to two, so two bosses, two kustom jobs, two specialist mobs
going to ping goonhammer and see what they think
edit: hashed it out with my local group and goonhammer - specialist MOBS and kustom jobs are not listed as detachment abilities so they do not get the benefit of heroic support.
the detachment ability specialist LADZ is the ork equivalent of agents of the imperium and lets you include certain units in a clan detachment without losing kulturs.
tneva82 wrote: Yes. That's what it's intended for(among other similar restrictions)
Hmm btw does it apply only to 1 restriction or all? Aka is it 2 warboss+1 specialist mob or reverse or mayhap you get 1 more of each?
Heroic support
if a detachment ability would limit the number of times you can include a unit in that detachment to 1, you can include a maximum of 2 of that unit in that detachment instead.
now that you ask it, i read that as increasing once per detachment restrictions to two, so two bosses, two kustom jobs, two specialist mobs
going to ping goonhammer and see what they think
It's not clear cut if it affects one detachment ability limit or every detachment ability limit if your army has more than one, so you might be able to take 2 warbosses and 2 wartrikes - but the specialist mob bit is almost certainly not allowed. The strat affects limits found in detachment abilities that affect the number of times you can select a unit - specialist mobs is not a detachment ability and the unit is the datasheet the specialist mob is applied to not the specialist mob upgrade itself.
Although Battlescribe shows that big choppa costs 0 points on the boss nob on a boyz unit, it actually shows that it costs 5 points in the points update pdf. There's a few other items like that for the boss nob in that dataslate in Battlescribe.
SprueTea wrote: Hi, just started out with orks and trying to make a 1000 pts list to begin with. Not trying to be too competetive, I just mainly want to use Evil Sunz and warboss on warbike for the Speedwaagh. I've already got 2 squads of boyz, 5 warbikes, 8 burna boyz + 2 Spanners and a Snazzwagon.
Spoiler:
++ Arks of Omen Detachment (Orks) [60 PL, 4CP, 1,000pts] ++
I'm on the fence about the battlewagon. I like the look of trukks a lot more, but it seems they're less points efficient here.
Any advice on what to change/what to get next would be great. Thanks!
Hey mate, i can give you some advice, mileage will vary and take it as advice no guarantees.
Ok let's star with your clan selection, it's not bad but it's important to understand what props it up and what does not go well with it:
-Basically you get 1' to move (unless speed freaks 2 in that case) and 1 to advance rolls, now this benefits a large amount of unit's in your list, mostly the footslogging and other that you advance most of the time.
-Bikes/boss in warbike Is a tricky situation since you only get a flat 6, so your +1 to roll is waisted
-You also get the no penalty in assault guns so rukkatrukk squigbuggy and and some of the guns of shock attack dragster, and that is about has much as you benefict from your clan.
Now the list the way i see is your going buggy heavy, and that means shooting.. in orks.. oh boy get ready for some disappointment
-Mech gun is fine on it's own i would advise you to upgrade to Kustom mega-kannon since it has more shots and an identical profile, so double shots on a gun is good
-Boyz will be boyz, if you take a look around the forum here, you will find many a warboss frustrated with current selection of boyz, don't expect anything amazing
-Missing gretchin is a crime, your missing the best secondary we have so far... up to you mate but this a big miss in my book
-Burna boyz.. flaming tadpole found some success using the jump.. but i have my doubts... would need more testing, 8d6 4S AP0 D1 i am not entirely sure.. even more since you do not have support.. if facing shooting list or you fail to hide them their boyz and well.. you know my opinion on boyz.. with L6 you better hope they kill a unit since they will be running fast if they don't..
-Boomdakka maybe inside of a waagh?? The thing is i used a Dakkajet in big waaghh with the kustom more dakka and it whiffed twice it was a big disappointment, that was 56 shot each round, over 2 rounds and barely manged 4 wounds, all because BS5, the other thing is, besides speed waaagh there is no other buffs for it so i won't expect it perform to better, maybe you will get more leverage? not so sure.. have you taken a look at Kustom Boosta-blastas? it's flamers, or a deffdread? Their flamers are heavy so they have a better profile.
-Rukkatrukk either bring 2 or put nitrosquigs kustom job.. enough said, next... lol -Shokkjump solid but vulnerble to -1 hit since it has nothing to give it buffs
-warbikes solid but if your bringing them for shooting you will find the same issue like the Boomdakka , oh and bonus they have more shots then the Boomdakka, and like i mentioned, if you don't have anything for the guns, they will fail.. a lot!
-Battlewagon, it's nice... although is it for the boyz or the flamers? Being point efficient does not matter much, it depends on what you want it for, while forgetting you get more wounds with both trucks and their easier to hide then your wagon plus providing 2 targets instead of one. Up to you, but rule of thumb, we tend to use the waggon for really pricy stuff like manz and such.. still, it's not bad.
Verdict? Humm if it is a fun game of beerhammer and for a few laughs and explosion, it will be a fun game. If you intend to win anything, regretfully i will tell you that your list is actually fighting itself, the big issue is your selection of units goes against your clan choice which want to move fast, or play's in the move phase, so you probably want to gravitate to a pressure list with squigboys and other units that want to get stuck as fast as possible, you don't care a nickel for shooting....
If you really want to go buggy consider freebota or badmoons.. just remenber that orks shooting is very limited and shooting on 5 really weakens it... There are very few buffs for it and you will end up depending on some units to carry your games, mech guns, kannonwagons, flyers(jury still out on these), some of the buggies like rukkatruck, kustom busta, shock dragsta, scrappjet's.. and that's about the best shooting that comes to mind.
I also think your scoring game is currently lacking and you will have issues wining even if you have the upper hand.
The last point is that you have a bit of limited amount of anti T8... if your meta is T8 heavy the list will barely do a dent.
Well this is just my opinion, i think you should give it a spin and come back with your opinion, after all am not all knowing and i have no idea the meta your facing!
PaddyMick wrote: @teranNash thanks for clearing up my question. Sucks but it is what it is.
@TedNugent I also notice Battlescribe doesn't recognise the extra slots for Character Elite units.
Yes it does under no force org.
I can't post image, but if you add squigboyz you can add nob on smasha squigs in no force org
Same with makari and other that have free roles if another unit is added.
The only Ork warboss is Blake Jones in Adeleide. So nothing exciting.
Please, look at the other other armies - what I see are the armies based a lot about big vehicles/monsters (tau, tyranids, guard, etc) or TEQ armies. Isn' t it? So the prediction of heavy meta was right and it is a really time to take the boyz to the ride?
List - ghazzy, killrigs etc. All goffs
Spoiler:
++ Arks of Omen Detachment (Orks) [112 PL, 1CP, 2,000pts] ++
+ Configuration +
Arks of Omen Compulsory Type: Troops
Battle Size [6CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)
Clan Kultur: Goffs
Detachment Command Cost
Game Type: 5. Chapter Approved: Arks of Omen
+ Stratagems +
Stratagem: Heroic Support: Warboss [-1cp]
+ HQ +
Beastboss on Squigosaur [9 PL, -2CP, 160pts]: Beasthide Mantle, Proper Killy (Goffs), Stratagem: Big Boss, Stratagem: Extra Gubbinz
So T8 is the new read meat?
Custodes and DA went up and the meta is hardening up with tanks and what not.
I don't think the boyz have a place yet.. it's just too deadly for them.. and 1 claw won't make much of a difference. I want to believe i am wrong but it requires too much point investment.
Hopefully we get some love now that other books died.
Sad to see them go.. but still they should just fix our codex instead of band aid it.
I am still annoyed at the competitive community for bashing one of the ork's play style leaving us with only 1 way to play.
if vehicles are on the menu, anything beast snaggas are that much more valuable. hitting on 2s and good strat support, and a permanent if small invuln save, i'll take it
Forceride wrote: So T8 is the new read meat?
Custodes and DA went up and the meta is hardening up with tanks and what not.
I don't think the boyz have a place yet.. it's just too deadly for them.. and 1 claw won't make much of a difference. I want to believe i am wrong but it requires too much point investment.
Hopefully we get some love now that other books died.
Sad to see them go.. but still they should just fix our codex instead of band aid it.
I am still annoyed at the competitive community for bashing one of the ork's play style leaving us with only 1 way to play.
Well, right. My fault.
I supposed to use all kinds of “boyz” = tankbustas, beastsnagas, stormboyz, kommandos etc. Dependig on the task to pass.
Traditional ork tactics = spam one type of the targets.
And yeas, the note about “beastsnagas” support for this kind of meta = exactly fit to my preception of GW plan of selling models and rules.
Phase 1 = new models whit not so great rules to sell stuff like “new one”
Phase 2 = after aprox 1-2 years comes the new rules that pimps this kind of units up to sell them like a “meta”
Phase 3 = dump them to force people with completed collection to another type of the army.
Works 99% for all armies imho. See the Votans! Hot on the table? Not so much.. phase 1!
See the Rogan Dorn? The same story.
Ork buggies? Welcome in phase 3 after exactly following phases 1 and 2.
So yes, bestsnagga boyz are exactly ready for phase 2. Creative way how to make us buy another set of boyz.
I don ' t complain. Just comment. One have to paint something anyway
And one more point - do not expect new ork models in next 3 years at least. All factions have their waves up a down. We had about 3-4 years of new models and rules. Tons of buggies, brand new snagga line, new kommandos and Koptas. That is a lot.
Now it is a turn for Inperial Guard to shine. The y was rotting in mus for 4 years or how long….
Its funny. Back in 6th/7th when "GW is a model company first" was the motto, they barely released anything. We'd get like 1 codex a year with 1-2 new models at best and sometimes not even that much.
Then Starwars Xwing kicked them off the top sales mark and they kicked it into high gear to "invigorate" the game again, and somehow now theyre just pumping models out (to the point where some armies are actually getting annoyed by it *cough marines cough*)
Tomsug wrote: And one more point - do not expect new ork models in next 3 years at least. All factions have their waves up a down. We had about 3-4 years of new models and rules. Tons of buggies, brand new snagga line, new kommandos and Koptas. That is a lot.
Now it is a turn for Inperial Guard to shine. The y was rotting in mus for 4 years or how long….
You mean Eldar? They have model's with what? like 20 or more?
But i hear ya on the boyz, not your fault mate, i think everyone one want's their boyz, the normal ones to be great again, it's in our genes, like a dog chasing a car. But yeah, totally on that note, use the ones for the task, also in current AoO, i think we probably going to run out of role slots, either for Elite or Fast Attack.. funny lol!
But yeah, beast snaggas might exactly be our best troops just cause of the meta. I won't hold my breath though, this is the last season before 10th, many a spin is still to happen. Inceptors just got nerfed. So hold your horses.
Also, i don't get that trait in the list, why proper killy in the beast boss? Pretty sure there are better ones.
Tomsug wrote: And one more point - do not expect new ork models in next 3 years at least. All factions have their waves up a down. We had about 3-4 years of new models and rules. Tons of buggies, brand new snagga line, new kommandos and Koptas. That is a lot.
Now it is a turn for Inperial Guard to shine. The y was rotting in mus for 4 years or how long….
I mean they literally previewed a new model that looks strikingly similar to snikrot… I have no clue where you are pulling this no model nonsense from.
In fact I fully expect Angron to meld a push toward Armageddon in the next 3 years and for orks to get at least some army of renown type lists and character models at the very least. But I don’t expect any major line releases except maybe a new tankbusta type unit.
I actually like regular boyz a lot in this current meta. 5pt combi-skorcha plus tankbusta bomb strat is generally a lot more applicable than monster hunterz. I think doing a mix of snagga and regular is a good way to go so if you really need something big dead you can warpath/da jump a squad of snaggas plus charge in your squigasaur tagged with the monster hunter.
Tomsug wrote: And one more point - do not expect new ork models in next 3 years at least. All factions have their waves up a down. We had about 3-4 years of new models and rules. Tons of buggies, brand new snagga line, new kommandos and Koptas. That is a lot.
Now it is a turn for Inperial Guard to shine. The y was rotting in mus for 4 years or how long….
I mean they literally previewed a new model that looks strikingly similar to snikrot… I have no clue where you are pulling this no model nonsense from.
In fact I fully expect Angron to meld a push toward Armageddon in the next 3 years and for orks to get at least some army of renown type lists and character models at the very least. But I don’t expect any major line releases except maybe a new tankbusta type unit.
Well, you are right that some plastic HQ and one more Army of Renown propably come this year. My imperfection. But the general direction will be like I said.
But this would be the last call.
The whole warhammer works this way. Few years support of this army, than dump it and support another. Look at the meta developemnt in last couple of years. My oldest warhammer book is about 8 years old. Pretty short period. But this pattern is obvious. Up and down, up and down.
It is very qood logical patern. You cannot simply upgrade all armies at once, you force people to buy more armies, the change so it is interesting, you can tell some story in marketing space about who fights who and write abook about it.
Plus you have a time to to paint all pile of shame models in the meantime
Orks are not one of the forgotten armies - that's for sure. We got our fair share only new releases lately. Yeah, it's probably gonna abe a couple year's break for us, but I really don't mind. We have a great variety of awesome models. I can't even name the older ones that are still legal that I particularly dislike... Well, maybe I don't dig killrigs and squighogs but that's cause i'm more of a blood axe fan and like more mad Max look for my orks with ramshackled vehicles all around. Squig-stuff sculpts are great by themselves tho.
With the changes to space marines, why do people expect heavy vehicle play? Terminator play i get but why vehicle play from other armies?
Wouldnt they just get demolished by tons of space marine melta shots?
Id expect a very terminator and infantry heavy meta. Not terminator and vehicle meta. Except for imperial guard as they probably cant make a great army without vehicles.
us.
Hey bud, been out of the hobby for a minute. Got head hunted by a big company in a major city but thanks to the Housing market being insane right now I'm commuting about 5 hours a day, working 9 hours a day and add in sleep and spending time with the kids...not much time left over for Da Boyz. Haven't even had a chance to get to a Local tournament let alone a 
