Out of curiosity, how do people think Palladium want people to approach them with recommended Cons?
Lets set aside what this tells us about the PB / ND relationship.
Can't really be the KS comments as we're pretty sure they don't read them (and I asked about Adepticon there several times). Can't really be contacting the KS creator as I *also* did that several times (ironically asking about Adepticon) with zero response and no show at Adepticon.
And I can't find a contact us email on Palladium's page.
That would leave... snail mail, phone and perhaps their forums (snark: can see NMI canning posts suggesting Cons that PB go to as being 'disrespectful')?
I might give them a call on Monday just to find out.
They don't really follow the forums either. NMI will claim he's passing information along, but we've had that done for some questions and a month later still don't have a response.
There's also the ever so useful Palladium Help Desk Ticket! It's like an email, but several times more obnoxious to set up!
Yes. Without exaggeration or hyperbole, calling them remains one of the best ways to get in touch, and one of the least efficient ways of connecting with 5,342 backers.
Like, what on earth would they do if even a small fraction of their backers decided to call them? Just 1%. 52+ people ringing them up across the day would mean whomever answers the phone probably isn't doing anything else all day.
52+ people ringing them up across the day would mean whomever answers the phone probably isn't doing anything else all day.
Just think of all the facebook farms that will lay fallow with pigs running rampant across them unhindered by birds! Oh, the humanity! I'm sorry but I actually have worked the hours they talk about working supposedly for years and you get alot done. They have nothing meaningful tk show for all those worked weekends and late nights except a 95% failure rate on 2013 RPG book and minis projects. If they are spending that much time there with so little product to show, they're just wasting their time doing things other than tabletop games production.
Not only that, but as I think I've mentioned (here? Perhaps somewhere else), we've seen in the tech/video game industry and others that "raw hours worked" does not equate quality results. There are diminishing returns where after so many hours working at something, eventually not only do you see lesser results for your efforts, but mistakes are more likely to both be made and missed, meaning after a certain point some of the hours you put in might actually set you back further than if you'd just gone off for a nap instead.
People cannot work 10/12/14/18 hour days for weeks and months on end without running into issues, and frankly, I have doubts most of the PB crew are exactly in the prime of their lives. They need rest, they need to take care of themselves, and they need to have a work/life balance that's realistic, even if they love what they do.
Forar wrote: Not only that, but as I think I've mentioned (here? Perhaps somewhere else), we've seen in the tech/video game industry and others that "raw hours worked" does not equate quality results. There are diminishing returns where after so many hours working at something, eventually not only do you see lesser results for your efforts, but mistakes are more likely to both be made and missed, meaning after a certain point some of the hours you put in might actually set you back further than if you'd just gone off for a nap instead.
People cannot work 10/12/14/18 hour days for weeks and months on end without running into issues, and frankly, I have doubts most of the PB crew are exactly in the prime of their lives. They need rest, they need to take care of themselves, and they need to have a work/life balance that's realistic, even if they love what they do.
In a normal life, I agree with you. However, I've been working 14 hour days for the last 6 months. Admittedly, I don't have any of the concerns of regular life though. It is Gym, Work, Sleep, sprinkling in talking to the family between those. But having a social life or family life working 12 hour days 5 or 6 days a week isn't possible. I believe the PB guys work 9-5 and take 2 hour lunches, and either play a lot of FB games or surf the internet. Otherwise, there would be PB products leaking out of PB like diarrhea. Unfortunately, it is only verbal diarrhea that we get from PB, not actual work.
Agreed. I think they consider their 1 hour lunch, 2 hour doctor's appointment, and 1 hour chiropractic session as part of the 7am-7pm work day. They have almost nothing to show for the almost double full time efforts of a half dozen staffers plus numerous freelancers beyond 2 books, 2 minis, and 4 fan fiction complilations for the past year. If they were entirely a "part time" outfit like other smaller starting out RPG companies then that output would be more than acceptable... but for a 30+ year vet of the industry with a multiple full time staff who do nothing else? No... they're wasting a hell of alot of those 80 hour 7 day work weeks.
Oh, I doubt that every single one of those "14 hour days" or whatever they claim to put in so frequently is chalk full of productivity.
It was more a commentary on the fact that it's not an ideal to strive for anyway. Having to put in a few long days to catch up on a project or take care of something time sensitive is one thing, but it's not like "omg I put 200 hours into this" guarantees quality. Just like PB taking 2 years to deliver on this project in full doesn't guarantee quality.
I used to work 12 hour shifts, but that was only 7 days out of every 14, so there was some extra downtime. More like 14 hour days when transit time was included, 18+ if I stuck around for a little overtime, believe me, I know it can be done, but yeah, don't expect to have much of a social life either. Doubly so when swapping from days to nights or vice versa every two weeks. That *sucked*.
Such things should generally be the exception, not the rule. If PB is to be taken at their word (lawl), it's the rule. And honestly, if they really are putting in all these long days, and they are making them productive, then they really should have more to show than a couple of books and less than 1/4 of the figures in test sprue form after a year.
Salacious Greed wrote: HOW they collect enough money to pay everyone and keep the lights on is a complete mystery, but they do.
They still have fans, amazingly enough. When they had the big embezzlement mess a few years back, the company quite literally survived due to infusions of cash from the fans to replace the money that had been lost.
And I wouldn't exactly be willing to put money up on a bet that said fanbase has expanded rather than contracted in the ensuing years.
Not that I'm buying into the theory proposed in a few places that the KS was the only way they managed to pay the bills, but the "robbing Peter to pay Paul" theory isn't entirely without its own merits either.
What was particularly telling about the begging mpney from their fans episode was that they were unwilling to sell shares of Palladium to the fans thereby allowing them to invest in a company they loved and also giving them a say in the running of the company itself (which is why Kevin wouldn't do it IMO. Control freaks don't like giving up control) as that would be akin to selling them swampland as I recall. But they'll take your money accountability free, which is one of the reasons I hold Kevin in contempt. You won't let people make a risky investment in your company, but you'll take their charity? Douche move, IMO.
I think these flashback statements are raising a concern in my head of why I am in such a rush to hear about REAL progress:
I want to see that the expensive "hardware" being the dies done as quickly as possible because I could see PB not being good at budgeting and suddenly finding themselves out of funds and asking for a handout.
Call me crazy or is this a legitimate concern?
It MAY not be for "wave 1" but the extra stuff promised (or add-ons paid for) I could see it happening with a 98% chance.
I really would make a point for a short road trip to look Kevin in the eye and decide at that moment what would be most appropriate to do... a pie in the face may be a start.
I can't imagine they've blown through the funding printing prototypes and making a half dozen molds, but they have noted the expected costs increasing, so it wouldn't surprise me if Wave One was in part a manner of (from their perspective) guaranteeing a revenue stream to help cover any extra costs in Wave Two.
Maybe I'm splitting hairs, I just think that some folks in the comments are a bit too gloom and doom with the "omg they're broke, zero money, it's allll goooooooone!", and more a matter of "Wow, like, we're just hemorrhaging cash on this first set, recouping some costs starting this year would probably be a good idea" kind of stance.
But if they feth up that badly Tal, let me know when you're going, I'd gladly look into a road trip of my own to get an uncomfortable discussion or two on film.
If they really are going to make a mid May start of production, I could see them showing off the RDF sprues this week and firing things off next week.
That is, however, a BIG "if" there, before anyone bothers pointing it out. We all know this is a big "sure you're going to start punching plastic... annnny week now, eh? Suuuuuuure." kinda moment, and an announcement otherwise would be the real surprise now.
I have faith that we'll see something of wave 1 delivered from the kickstarter. If the retail release bombs because of the backlash from the bungled post kickstarter campaign, I could theoretically see Wave 2 in jeopardy. I don't think that is the most likely outcome seeing as how I suspect alot of middle aged gamers who didn't find out about the KS in time will see Robotech minis and just buy them out of nostalgia without full knowledge of the drama/shennanigans/douchbagery behind the scenes. If the quality of the minis and/or game are bad then they simply won't follow up on those initial purchases and the game will go the way of the dodo likely before palladium cuts the moulds on wave 2.
As folks have said, if it has taken them this long to get out just the minority of minis for wave 1, we have a LONG wait ahead of us for wave 2. That far off wave is the one that I'm worried about at this point. I do believe palladium will have something to sell via retail of variable quality sometime in about 6 months or so.
You know what would alleviate a lot of my nervousness right now? If they just released a pdf of the rulebook for people to peruse. In a miniature game, not showing the rules off (which I consider advertising for the minis they want to sell) makes me really nervous because awesome rules sell minis, and crappy rules don't. So the only reason NOT to release the rules IMO is that the rules aren't very good.
vitae_drinker wrote: You know what would alleviate a lot of my nervousness right now? If they just released a pdf of the rulebook for people to peruse. In a miniature game, not showing the rules off (which I consider advertising for the minis they want to sell) makes me really nervous because awesome rules sell minis, and crappy rules don't. So the only reason NOT to release the rules IMO is that the rules aren't very good.
The zentraedi stuff doesn't look too bad overall mainly because the seams run lateral to the front view instead of straight down the front facing multiple times like with most of the destroids prototypes and the veritech render we've seen.
I do tend to be the cup half empty guy so I do like it when I am wrong, I just want to see the cash rolled into tooling so they are committed to flogging the product to get further money that way (at least able to bank on their greed).
In regards to rules; Palladium is pretty protective of their IP so they really do not like handing out stuff until it is in a saleable condition (past history shows us that.). Quality remains to be seen, as long as we can get past the 24 hours prior to print rewrite: all would be well.
And even then they don't "hand it out" digitally. Most of the PDFs they offer are of books they don't plan on ever reprinting whether because of poor sales, need for updating (but no willingness to do so), or lack of ability due to stolen prints back in the Crisis of TreacheryTM. Even the recent crowdfunding offerings had the PDFs come out long after the physical copies and in a cumbersome fashion only to those who pledged (and NOT available for normal sale via DTRPG).
In this particular case, HG's greed matches exactly up with Palladium's paranoia about piracy so we won't see the rules digitally before the release (and likely even then afterwards only if someone uploads a fan created pirate copy).
Maybe it's due to being in the rear of the shot but the monster looks a bit undersized. The other destroids can basically stand underneath it's hull in several of the scale charts, in these pics it doesn't even look close to that large. Could be the angle but maybe it's undersized?
paulson games wrote: Maybe it's due to being in the rear of the shot but the monster looks a bit undersized. The other destroids can basically stand underneath it's hull in several of the scale charts, in these pics it doesn't even look close to that large. Could be the angle but maybe it's undersized?
Best I can see it looks like the recon pod's lateral antenna lines up with the 4 barrels... let's hope that monster is a half size print.
Re: the rules: they were supposedly going to have a preview/prototype/whatever of the book at Penguicon, which of course doesn't mean they can't make further changes before it goes into mass production, but that seems to give at least plausible deniability.
Re: the MAC II: people were saying the same thing about the figure at Gencon last year, that it seemed a bit undersized, and that the scale might be slightly off for it. Wouldn't surprise me any, and not entirely from the schadenfreude of some of the "scale purists" realizing that there's already compromises being made, though the most 'devout' of that lot seems to have realized just what a pure 6mm scale would mean (read: cyclones you can barely see detail on).
Also, every time I see all those figures lined up, it makes me ponder how much money and time were wasted getting those prototypes made and possibly refined for figures that weren't due out for potentially years (in that obviously work was being done on them back in mid 2013, and many may not even get to molds until 2015). Sure, it's indicative that they thought they might actually deliver the entire line to backers in one swoop, but I sure hope those got back burnered when it became even remotely possible they were about to go to a two wave solution.
Edit: did we mention that a backer claimed to have gotten a refund?
"Robert Nelson I got a refund I am 90 percent sure I got credited on my card and it says the dispute is closed I would dispute the charge. Call your credit card company and include documentation of all their false promises I also emailed palladium and explained how I didn't have time to assemble so many minis. They didn't get back to me so I filled out the dispute form emailed PB to let them know what I was doing and was emailed back saying they would give my pledge to someone else. I sent the form anyway,"
I know others have mentioned it here as well, just wanted to reinforce that it seems to be possible, and the steps he took to get there.
The fact that they gave him a "well we're going to just give (sell?) it to someone else anyway" line makes me think they might finally be realizing that it's not worth the headache to refuse any and all refunds at this point.
I don't see why they would either. Assuming they haven't bled themselves completely dry (as discussed above), why not just pitch a couple of grand at them and get a bunch of the 'whiners' out of the comments? Surely even they can recognize that the longer it all gets drawn out, the more damage those complaints are going to do. And hell, the "complainers" are also probably more likely to be critical of the end results, so not having them doing "unboxing videos" on Youtube and complaining about the actual pieces is probably in their best interest anyway.
Oooohhh!
Put out an unboxing video!
Fantastic idea.
I could see it going like this:
- Here is what I ordered, here is what I got.
- We appear to be short some sprues in the box, we will call up on that later...
- A bit of warpage, a bit of flash, a bit of short shot: this is be expected at the beginning of the run, I am sure the retail versions will be better than the kickstarter trial boxes...
You know, Forar is right, maybe I should get a refund, it will be better for everybody.
Forar wrote: However, that was over half a decade ago.
Given how old the company is, half a decade isn't really all that long ago. It's not as if anything's changed at the company in the last couple of decades. They were doing the same things then that they're doing now, only with less publicity.
Talizvar wrote: Oooohhh! - A bit of warpage, a bit of flash, a bit of short shot: this is be expected at the beginning of the run, I am sure the retail versions will be better than the kickstarter trial boxes...
Dunno... the above is dependent on retail boxes coming out after KS ones which may not be the case. If palladium does finally start firing on more than 1 cylinder, they might get some boxes to sell at Gencon if they airfreight them over for the big event. While I have very little confidence in any of us getting our boxes (unless they ship alphabetically and Forar's last name is Aardvark), they can feasibly get some to show off and sell at full retail by early August. Air shipping packages from china using the cheap normal route (assuming no issues with customs) takes about 6-10 business days in my albeit limited experience so they would only have to get the stuff done by the beginning of August. And with that...
warboss wrote: (unless they ship alphabetically and Forar's last name is Aardvark)!
Heh, nope. Almost the literal opposite end of the alphabet with a W, so if they go alphabetically, I'm screwed, and won't see my gak until, like, 2 months after everyone else.
Platuan4th wrote: What's the mutually assured destruction pact here? I think I missed that.
Some backers took their adamant declarations that they WILL be selling at Gencon at face value, and have declared that such a short and firm timeframe on a project that has been so lax with them was akin to a suicide pact, thus, the Gencon Suicide Pact, which was tastefully renamed to the Gencon Mutually Assured Destruction Pact. Especially since, as Warboss points out, IF they got production fired up but couldn't get the crates to them via ocean freight (how our stuff will be travelling), they could still air freight some over, and that selling at the convention before they started shipping backer boxes would likely get ugly. I mean, the Max and Miriya debacle last year raged for months.
Never have I been told by so many people that I was "entitled" and "whining" for offering to give a company money for a product they were making (and based on presumably still having the molds, could make more of).
Platuan4th wrote: What's the mutually assured destruction pact here? I think I missed that.
Pretty much what Forar said above. Folks in the comments section started referring to the "gencon or bust!" tone of a Kevin S. update/murmur/press release as a suicide pact in that he would push it out the door to sell at gencon no matter what state it was in (this was of course during spartangate when the questions of quality came to the fore). I renamed it M.A.D. pact to avoid any hard feelings about the use of the word suicide. I guess I could have called it the even milder "Gencon or Bust!" pact as well but I didn't think of that till writing this post. In any case, it was a reference to screwing up the quality of the project just to get it out the door in time for a massively delayed delivery date. It's like someone pulling an all nighter because they blew off a term paper AFTER getting an extension from their professor and turning in a piece of crap. Only time will tell if that is what will happen here. 100 days!
Well, we'll see in 100(though I don't have faith in their ability from the past).
And if they do, you've got to be concerned too.
For the most part, the deadline pushbacks have been "We want to assure quality*, even if it takes longer". Now it's "It'll be at GenCon, guaranteed!**". It's two contradictory design principles, and given the status of the Valkyrie (as of the last update, they still hadn't SEEN the Pre Production Prototype, but it's already in sprue layout. Even if they approve it immediately***, and the mold is milled immediately***, and the test sprues are pressed immediately***, and shipped immediately***, and approved again, immediately*** (and that's assuming Harmony Gold don't need/want/require to stick their beaks in), that still puts middle of May beyond reach, unless they're willing to start the molding before everything to be molded is properly approved. So barring a horrific issue (like missing a leg), it's likely going to get rubberstamped because a delay here would be problematic.
* Quality is arguable. I don't mind the Regult Pods for the most part, though some of the parts seem excessive. But the RDF stuff looks gak so far.
** Not actually guaranteed.
*** For any defined value of immediately. Given that "immediately" in PB-speak doesn't correlate to general usage.
Remember, they've had the Artillery Pod for over a week already, and apparently haven't assembled it to test fits of the various components. Screw it actually be put together properly, making sure the pegs on the torso fit into the holes in the legs so we don't have a crapload of models that can't be put together. Given it's a single figure, it should have been fit-assembled, put together, and frikkin painted in a week, along with photos of the journey. PB have a timetable that most (including themselves) aren't taking seriously.
Glad to see my money's in such good hands. Wish it wasn't.
Thanks for the review, Mike. I'll have to take a look at it tomorrow.
I just got my end of a Robotech minis trade today and I think we will have a problem when it comes to those really thin limb sections on zentraedi models. I'm not sure how the strength of resin compares to their plastic but I had two very well packaged and padded Miriya minis sent to me including one that was assembled. The assembled one arrived with BOTH arms broken at the elbow and those limbs from the pics look to be about the same size if not a tiny bit bigger than the Glaug arms. I'll have to take a look on the sprue pics and see if the glaug arms are hollow to make matters even worse (not sure... but the resin though was solid and still snapped).
Any chance you can do squeeze in some Qraus? Also, I hate to keep harping on hover...
"hover allows units to ignore rough terrain as they move over it"
If a hover unit ENDS its movement in rough terrain that grants cover (which it ignored due to the above for its own movmement), does it get the benefit both the hover and cover penalty to hit it? If so, I guess it is considered to have effectively "landed" after its move. An example of the type of rough cover would be dense rubble punctuated be the occasional broken wall partly remaining upright that is tall enough to grant the cover.
here is a list of scenarios and units that we created on the facebook page the other day
1. VF vs Attack
80 Points
VF Squadron with Nose Lasers 79 pts
vs
Attack Squadron 80 pts
2. Armored VT's vs Attrtition
Armored Vt Squadron 90 pts
vs
Attritions Squadron and Glaug 99 pts
3. Gnerls vs Ghosts and Lancers
Gnerl Attack Squadrons x2 140 pts
vs
Ghost Squadron and Lancer Squadron 135 pts
4. Brawler vs Zen Infantry
Brawler and Super Vt Squadrons 280 pts
vs
Zen Light and Heavy Infantry Squadrons 284 pts
2 Artillery Support Squadrons
AttritionsSquadron
Glaug
5. YF-4 vs FPA
YF-4 Squadron 110 pts
vs
FPA Sqaudron 105 pts
6. Jotuns vs MPA
Jotun Squadron 105 pts
vs
MPA Squadron and MPA Squad support 105 pts
7. Super vs Arty Pods
Super Vt Squadron 110 pts
vs
Arty Pods Squadron and Scout and Glaug 109 pts
Those are indeed a variety of numbers that vaguely line up.
Why not work in the multiples of 150 that Palladium seems to expect, with the whole "must have 1 card per 150 points" rule?
150 points, 300 points ("roughly an hour long game), 450, 600 (a much longer afternoon long epic), etc?
Obviously the high levels become more and more uncertain as character and unit upgrades probably become more important and are lesser known, but 150/300 seem like good things to get comfortable sorting out.
warboss wrote: Just in case Mike missed it on his mobile device, any word on the hover/cover interaction question I posted above?
I will check, I know I asked for clarification, or it might already be in the rules.
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Forar wrote: Those are indeed a variety of numbers that vaguely line up.
Why not work in the multiples of 150 that Palladium seems to expect, with the whole "must have 1 card per 150 points" rule?
150 points, 300 points ("roughly an hour long game), 450, 600 (a much longer afternoon long epic), etc?
Obviously the high levels become more and more uncertain as character and unit upgrades probably become more important and are lesser known, but 150/300 seem like good things to get comfortable sorting out.
Point is to do a few games and show the units off. That is why there is such a variety. 150 points even would add a squad or two and make the playthroughs take longer. Maybe after I get through these.
Note rules say at least one Force Card/Squadron per 150 points. You can do a single squadron for 60 points or one for 200 if you beef it up with squads and specials. Rules do not say you have to use exaclty 150 points. I beleive that the idea is to not permit 2 super Squadrons that add up to 450 points on the table.
Per the Preview rules
Minimum Requirements
To prevent a player from fielding a single, incredibly huge and unbalanced squadron as his entire army there are two simple requirements that must be followed when putting together an army for Robotech® RPG Tactics™ beyond the point limit.
1. You must field a minimum of two core force cards for a standard game.
2. For every 150 points you field, you must include at least one core force card.
Note: That the minimum two core force cards in a standard game are included in this calculation, so a 450 point game would require three core force cards total.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
vitae_drinker wrote: Just in case people hadn't seen it, here's an article regarding an attorney general's office going after a Kickstarter that reneged on delivery.
Well, we'll see in 100(though I don't have faith in their ability from the past).
And if they do, you've got to be concerned too.
For the most part, the deadline pushbacks have been "We want to assure quality*, even if it takes longer". Now it's "It'll be at GenCon, guaranteed!**". It's two contradictory design principles, and given the status of the Valkyrie (as of the last update, they still hadn't SEEN the Pre Production Prototype, but it's already in sprue layout. Even if they approve it immediately***, and the mold is milled immediately***, and the test sprues are pressed immediately***, and shipped immediately***, and approved again, immediately*** (and that's assuming Harmony Gold don't need/want/require to stick their beaks in), that still puts middle of May beyond reach, unless they're willing to start the molding before everything to be molded is properly approved. So barring a horrific issue (like missing a leg), it's likely going to get rubberstamped because a delay here would be problematic.
* Quality is arguable. I don't mind the Regult Pods for the most part, though some of the parts seem excessive. But the RDF stuff looks gak so far.
** Not actually guaranteed.
*** For any defined value of immediately. Given that "immediately" in PB-speak doesn't correlate to general usage.
Remember, they've had the Artillery Pod for over a week already, and apparently haven't assembled it to test fits of the various components. Screw it actually be put together properly, making sure the pegs on the torso fit into the holes in the legs so we don't have a crapload of models that can't be put together. Given it's a single figure, it should have been fit-assembled, put together, and frikkin painted in a week, along with photos of the journey. PB have a timetable that most (including themselves) aren't taking seriously.
Glad to see my money's in such good hands. Wish it wasn't.
Sooo many Asterisks...
Yeah, I see your point. I've basically written off the money(sad) because I don't plan on seeing it in any time frame where I'd actually be able to work on it, much less play it. I forsee it sitting around unassembled like my Sedition Wars Lights Out clear and glowy figs(I'm not gonna assemble them until I start painting everything and thus their bases, which looks like it's never gonna happen).
... please tell me you were laying that out for the rest of the readers again, Mike. I'm well aware of the "1 card per 150, but not necessarily exactly 150 per card" aspect.
To prevent a player from fielding a single, incredibly huge and unbalanced squadron as his entire army there are two simple requirements that must be followed when putting together an army for Robotech® RPG Tactics™ beyond the point limit.
Is that copy pasted from the rules, Mike? or have you been replaced by the overzealousR podTM people?!?
It'll be interesting to see how popular it is to hit the 'breakpoints', or go above/below them.
Like, does 150/300 become the 'standard', or is it more popular to use off set numbers like 225 or 325 or 295, etc. Obviously this'll shift from group to group, probably with local metas developing, but IF (I know, big if) there's a tournament scene in any real sense, it wouldn't surprise me if that began to settle into some kind of pattern.
I think Penguicon was more fun than any of us anticipated. Sales were decent, my panel talks were all filled to capacity, and people loved the previews of Rifts® Northern Gun™ Two and Robotech® RPG Tactics™. Penguicon is a unique event as it started out as a Linux/computer oriented convention that has grown to include science fiction, gaming and other elements. It’s a pretty nice event, and I was honored to be a featured guest. (I was a Guest of Honor 10 or 12 years ago, so it has been a while since I last attended the convention.) Jeff Burke, Chuck Walton and I were at Penguicon all three days. Alex helped out Saturday afternoon and evening. All four of my panel talks went well and people seemed to enjoy themselves.
EVERYONE loved the Robotech® RPG Tactics™ prototype game pieces and painted game pieces on display. Jeff ran a few demos and seemed to be enjoying himself doing so. The next day he mentioned to me that he forgot how much fun people have playing the game. We all forgot to take photographs, because we were too busy talking with fans. I think it was a very nice change of pace for all of us, and especially fun to see so much enthusiasm and appreciation for the Robotech® game pieces. “Amazing,” was the most common refrain, along with many comments about the detail and quality. My personal favorite comment was, “Perfect. They are absolutely perfect.” I don’t know if I’d go so far as to call them perfect, but they are damn gorgeous. The Ninja Division sculptors did an outstanding job capturing the mecha from the show, and the Ninjas are making sure the manufacturer holds the detail and makes these Robotech® game pieces the detailed and accurate pieces we’ve promised. I was surprised by the number of Kickstarter backers who stopped by to see and praise the pieces on display and flip through the rule book. All walked away smiling and happy. It was very gratifying, and I was pleased to be able to thank them in person for their support.
And:
UPDATE: Robotech® RPG Tactics™
Things continue to move forward on Wave One going into manufacturing as we nail down final details and await final sprues and samples for our inspection and approval. We’ve just received photos from China of the long awaited Valkyrie game pieces and should get prototypes by the end of next week. When we do, we’ll take photos and post them.
As noted above, I am happy to report that people who saw the game pieces at Penguicon were delighted with them. I was especially pleased by the positive response by the couple of dozen Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Kickstarter Backers, all of whom were very happy with what they saw. It was fun and rewarding to see people so happy with everything, though the Defender, Phalanx, Monster, Zentraedi Recovery Pod, Fighter Pod and Female Power Armor appeared to be the crowd-pleasers among the Penguicon crowd. Even one of the other vendors who knew nothing about Robotech® thought the game pieces looked great and said he was going to buy a Monster when they became available in the stores. Funny.
There's a whole lot of "OMG EVERYONE THOUGHT THEY WERE SOOOOO PERFECT AND AWESOME!!" and not ONE pic, or proof of anyone actually saying any of this. You would think with all the negativity they've been getting with this lately that they would take some pics of how "perfect" they are looking.
There are some pics posted earlier in the thread but I agree that the circus barker "step right up" routine rings quite hollow. Every loved it and it was going swimmingly all last year right up until they started to push back the delivery date repeatedly. It's a good thing that they went to a con for Linux users but skipped the biggest tabletop only con for the year that Robotech's debut was a big part of last year. It's quite telling how much the reception has changed from last year when ND showed off the minis at GAMA and Adepticon to this year's palladium effort of couldn't be bothered to care minis presentations at GAMA and Penguincon.
Everything Kevin writes rings of overcompensation and a feeling that if he repeats something often enough, it will make it true. If he just replaced Everyone with most or quite a few or something that encompass 100%, I could take him more seriously.
Game 2
2. Armored VT's vs Attrtition
Armored Vt Squadron 90 pts
vs
Attritions Squadron and Glaug 99 pts
Then
3. Gnerls vs Ghosts and Lancers
Gnerl Attack Squadrons x2 140 pts
vs
Ghost Squadron and Lancer Squadron 135 pts
4. Brawler vs Zen Infantry
Brawler and Super Vt Squadrons 280 pts
vs
Zen Light and Heavy Infantry Squadrons 284 pts
2 Artillery Support Squadrons
AttritionsSquadron
Glaug
5. YF-4 vs FPA
YF-4 Squadron 110 pts
vs
FPA Sqaudron 105 pts
6. Jotuns vs MPA
Jotun Squadron 105 pts
vs
MPA Squadron and MPA Squad support 105 pts
7. Super vs Arty Pods
Super Vt Squadron 110 pts
vs
Arty Pods Squadron and Scout and Glaug 109 pts
Well, after the reaction to photographs the last time around, I have to say the whole "We all forgot to take photographs" line this time doesn't quite seem...right?
"Gen Con Indy is going to be the premier convention event for Palladium Books this year. A large booth, special display, a ton of product including Robotech® RPG Tactics™, and all our role-playing games and sourcebooks, art prints, original art, and all kinds of good stuff. There will also be many Palladium creators available at the booth throughout the convention to chat and sign autographs, including writers Brandon Aten, Matthew Clements, Carl Gleba, Carmen Bellaire, Mark Oberle (tentative), me (Kevin Siembieda), Palladium staffers like Wayne Smith and Jeff Burke, and artists including Nick Bradshaw, Mike Leonard, Chuck Walton, and others. And it looks like there will be 50+ Palladium Books RPG events in the official Gen Con program. My heartfelt thanks to the Megaversal Ambassadors spearheading this project, as well as the Game Masters volunteering to run so many events for our many game lines. Awesome.
Palladium Books Gen Con Highlights:
50+ RPG gaming events in a dedicated area. More than 3x the number of games ever at a Gen Con. Sign up when you can and make us look good.
Large exhibitor booth and special display.
Robotech® RPG Tactics™ products and demos. Role-playing game products galore: Rifts®, Robotech®, Splicers®, Palladium Fantasy®, Heroes Unlimited™, Nightbane®, Dead Reign™, Beyond the Supernatural™, Ninjas and Superspies™, After the Bomb® and all the rest.
Special edition books, prints and original artwork.
Get autographs, chat and have a blast.
Palladium creators already committed to appear: Kevin Siembieda, Wayne Smith (editor), Jeff Burke (artist & staffer), Chuck Walton (artist), Nick Bradshaw (artist), Mike Leonard (artist), Brandon Aten (writer), Matthew Clements (writer), Carl Gleba (writer), NMI (online admin and MA), Gary Miller (MA Coordinator and the Palladium Onsite Gaming Event Coordinator at Gen Con), and others may be added; subject to changes and addition. "
So is Kevin basically saying they're screwing their backers, or is he doing the jazz hands thing again?
I doubt the basic box set will be good to go. More likely they will have some more minis to sell off. Possibly the Zentraedi command box with the Glaug, Scout, and Recovery Pod or some Destroids or Battlepods
That'd be like FFG selling X-Wings and TIE Fighters but not the core box.
It's possible they'll follow that route, but I'd be surprised. They aren't just selling models, they're trying to entice people into the game overall. Not having the rules, or having all the pieces only for sale separately and no core box would be weird.
... which is kind of PB's MO, so maybe there's something to that after all.
I highly doubt nearly as many people are going to pay nearly $40 for a box of miniatures without any manner of actually playing the game, and if they have the wave one expansions there but no core boxes (and maybe the rules for sale, as WRRD alluded to), then they're just hoping to sucker people in on strictly the expensive stuff.
Mike1975 wrote: A mini starter box, rules, some Destroids and Pods. Call it a GenCon exclusive look, voila
Don't they already have a name for that?
Pledge $80 or more
102 backers
FIRST CONTACT: All First Contact backers receive a copy of the Robotech® RPG Tactics™ boxed game.
Estimated delivery: Dec 2013
Add $30 USD to ship outside the US
The starter box has Veritechs and more. I'm thinking more like 6+ Battlepods, one Glaug, and some Destroids since the Veritechs appear to not be ready yet. I could be wrong though. That would at least give people something to buy and chew on until the rest is done and make PB some $. Have 6 Battlepods (3 Sprues), a Glaug and Scout (1 Sprue, I think) and that would be an Attack Squadron with a Scout or about 95 points and then 6 Destroids (3 Sprues) or 2 Tomahawks, 2 Defenders, and 2 Spartans or 95 points and you'd have enough for a small battle and it's be something to get attention or as a teaser until the rest is ready.
7 Total Sprues
Faction Cards x2 Zen and UEDF
Rules
Force Cards=Attack Squadron, Scout, Area Denial or Brawler, Defender Squad or Spartan Squad = 4+
4 or 8 Dice half for each faction
Small enough that Command Tokens can be left out and Blast markers too.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Just an idea, somehow I think rumors in the KS comments and elsewhere that the Veritech is not ready yet may be the key to this all.
I'm so sick of PB and and their gak. My 12 year old nephew has more character than these guys. The second my stuff actually arrives it's getting sold to the owner of my FLGS. I can't help but get angry every time I look at one of their updates.
Much chilling must be done, we are a support group.
We paid for our stuff like it or not.
Let us agree that those selling their stuff to give preference to backers.
That way we can avoid giving a single dime past that to PB as a means of feeling all warm and fuzzy when it is all over and PB can go back to being irrelevant.
I really have to talk to Forar more since he should only be just up the road... sell me your stuff!!!!
Even one of the other vendors who knew nothing about Robotech® thought the game pieces looked great and said he was going to buy a Monster when they became available in the stores. Funny.
Funny as in joke's on him, they'll never be released? or funny in that they already have larger models kits of the Monster available in the stores for less then what our RTT game pieces TM will run?
No pics of all the "perfect" models, which are likely the same poorly fitted ones as gamma and before, yes funny indeed
8 Battlepod packs
4 command pod packs
1 support pod pack
A few people have mentioned interest, but I suspect that'll really peak with wave two. I'll likely stick to local sales at least for the basic stuff, but if you're in the area I'd be happy to work something out when the time comes, Talizvar.
Bob the Accountant wrote: I'm so sick of PB and and their gak. My 12 year old nephew has more character than these guys. The second my stuff actually arrives it's getting sold to the owner of my FLGS. I can't help but get angry every time I look at one of their updates.
After the recent 'we forgot to take photos' this is how I am leaning now as well.
Bob the Accountant wrote: I'm so sick of PB and and their gak. My 12 year old nephew has more character than these guys. The second my stuff actually arrives it's getting sold to the owner of my FLGS. I can't help but get angry every time I look at one of their updates.
After the recent 'we forgot to take photos' this is how I am leaning now as well.
Looks like I backed another dud :(
After forgetting to go to the con that premiered Robotech for the masses just a year earlier. They go to gencon and any con that recognizes the greatness of the might Kevin apparently. If you don't meet that criteria, you are forgotten about. Same thing with fans. If you worship at the altar of Siembieda then you're classified as a fan and worthy of giving feedback.
1. Palladium has no clue when it comes to PR and Mini's Games and Gamers, they SHOULD have hired a PR manager or firm to help as well as a Project Manager to take things in hand and hit a home run on this project. Too many mistakes and problems with communication between HG, PB, and ND, and as always with the Backers. Until people started getting real upset and questions were sent directly to them they had not spent sufficient time either answering the concerns of the backers whether small or great. They are working on improving this process but have a ways to go.
2. Upset backers in an attempt to "save" the company, instead of being productive and constructive and trying to contact the company in constructive and supportive manner have done so with a threatening and fear mongering stance trying to install fear of the company failing and falling on it's face or insulting those who work for the company in their efforts. While not a completely unrealistic position that they company may fall by not handling this KS properly, they have constantly and at times cruelly, insulted any and all who do not hold to the same opinion. Not only that they have done so under the completely false "guise" of doing so in the best interest of PB and wanting to save a company. Truly honest people that care and want a company or person to succeed do their best to cajole and suggest better ways to do things in a quiet, pointed and personal way instead they have directly, publicly and grossly attacked the company and any who opposed them. This stance is foolhardy and is bound to fail as it is because it is based on a false foundation. When suggestions have been made for how to improve and change this foundation those suggestions have also been ignored and scoffed at or even attacked. A person who honestly wants something to work and work right does everything he can within the framework he has available to achieve his goals.
Both of these are the primary problems that exist with the PB and some of backers.
2. What does it matter? PB isn't going to listen to any form of criticism, whether it's soft or hard. Btw, how are those answers to the questions backers sent them like a month ago coming along? It's only been 2-3 weeks since they'd get back to us -_-
And what about all the constructive comments that NMI and the other forum mods blast into the void?
Do you honestly believe that they are open and willing to take feedback when they act like that? Yes there's some unwarranted hate being thrown their way, but in combating it have largely set all of their filters on blanket ignore. If you are within Kevin's trusted elite and flatter his ego you have his ear, but the second your provide anything but glowing reviews you are suspect of being in the camp of the enemy.
This isn't unique to robotech, it's been going on for years on their forums and with their own employees/writers/artists.
Honestly I'm surprised that by sending in the compiled questionnaire that you didn't get booted as any indication that they are doing less then perfect seems to provoke their fall back mode of ignore and engage information black out efforts.
Sining wrote: 2. What does it matter? PB isn't going to listen to any form of criticism, whether it's soft or hard. Btw, how are those answers to the questions backers sent them like a month ago coming along? It's only been 2-3 weeks since they'd get back to us -_-
Yay PB, show us how much you care.
Interesting how complaining is all done on the comments, which I agree they should read, but likely don't. If they really want positive change, which they don't, they would try contacting PB directly. Has anyone done that?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
paulson games wrote: And what about all the constructive comments that NMI and the other forum mods blast into the void?
Do you honestly believe that they are open and willing to take feedback when they act like that? Yes there's some unwarranted hate being thrown their way, but in combating it have largely set all of their filters on blanket ignore. If you are within Kevin's trusted elite and flatter his ego you have his ear, but the second your provide anything but glowing reviews you are suspect of being in the camp of the enemy.
This isn't unique to robotech, it's been going on for years on their forums and with their own employees/writers/artists.
Honestly I'm surprised that by sending in the compiled questionnaire that you didn't get booted as any indication that they are doing less then perfect seems to provoke their fall back mode of ignore and engage information black out efforts.
I'm not saying it is easy but trying to be constructive has gotten some results, albeit limited. If I had sent in the questions as written I doubt we would have gotten anything. I do however find it highly dubious to CLAIM that one is doing things for the best of PB and it's future when all they do is hate monger. KS may not always be the most open to listening but he is not the only one there. I got NMI's in trouble once for being a moron by sending some copies of his threads to PB directly. Anything he says is likely taken with a grain of salt by PB too. It's not an easy situation, it is not an ideal situation either. I fin d those who say the their hyper critical suppositions are for the best of PB as hypocritical at best and straight out dishonest if only to themselves. Such self-delusion is the similar to what they accuse KS of.
Talizvar wrote: Much chilling must be done, we are a support group.
We paid for our stuff like it or not.
Let us agree that those selling their stuff to give preference to backers.
That way we can avoid giving a single dime past that to PB as a means of feeling all warm and fuzzy when it is all over and PB can go back to being irrelevant.
I really have to talk to Forar more since he should only be just up the road... sell me your stuff!!!!
Hey, I've been wanting to offload my crap for quite a while now. Only one backer considered it. If anyone wants it, I'm happy to knock 10% off the Backer price. That's really only a deal if you'ld need International Shipping, but even if you didn't, it'd still be at cost.
So, for just $1400US, you can get yourself 8 BattleCry's and about four hundred dollars worth of upgrades (off memory, Glaug Eldare, Monster, 2x YF-4 Box, 3x Armoured Valks Box, 2x Super Valks Box, an Experimental Valks Box and 4x VEF/1D Boxes). Shipped to your door. Assuming PB aren't complete pricks about it (never discount that possibility). If not, like Bob the Accountant, it's all going up for sale on EBay or through gamer marketplaces. Hopefully I can recover my costs, but I'm honestly not expecting to, that's how big a clusterfrak I see this project being.
EDIT: Note, I offered the 10% haircut to PB, but they never responded beyond the boilerplate Marcus "No Refunds!". So, they can eat the likely huge shipping costs, should it come to that.
Sining wrote: 2. What does it matter? PB isn't going to listen to any form of criticism, whether it's soft or hard. Btw, how are those answers to the questions backers sent them like a month ago coming along? It's only been 2-3 weeks since they'd get back to us -_-
Yay PB, show us how much you care.
Interesting how complaining is all done on the comments, which I agree they should read, but likely don't. If they really want positive change, which they don't, they would try contacting PB directly. Has anyone done that?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mike,
I sent a long, polite email to PB on March 17th, requesting a refund. They still haven't bothered to give a reply. A friend and I split the Kickstarter between the two of us- I got a refund for my portion from my bank, and he's in the process with his. This is not how you should handle customer service at all- hiding your head in the sand and pretending there is no problem (or in PB's case, multiple problems) doesn't make it go away.
Mike, you do realise they're 'supposed' to be professionals not little children we have to coddle right? If they can't take criticism and I'm referring even to those that aren't just personal slurs, then I really think that the problem is on their side and not the backers. They're also not doing us any favours, we paid for stuff in advance, if anything they should be placating the backers and not the other way around !!
Sining wrote: 2. What does it matter? PB isn't going to listen to any form of criticism, whether it's soft or hard. Btw, how are those answers to the questions backers sent them like a month ago coming along? It's only been 2-3 weeks since they'd get back to us -_-
Yay PB, show us how much you care.
Interesting how complaining is all done on the comments, which I agree they should read, but likely don't. If they really want positive change, which they don't, they would try contacting PB directly. Has anyone done that?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mike,
I sent a long, polite email to PB on March 17th, requesting a refund. They still haven't bothered to give a reply. A friend and I split the Kickstarter between the two of us- I got a refund for my portion from my bank, and he's in the process with his. This is not how you should handle customer service at all- hiding your head in the sand and pretending there is no problem (or in PB's case, multiple problems) doesn't make it go away.
Good for you, but the only thing is that I think they have already made it clear not refunds. They should have answered you either way though. At least a we are reviewing the option and will get back to you. Take note that even personal emails to the typically take a couple weeks to get a response. Sometimes I have to call the office, so yeah, I understand that communication is piss poor.
That isn't unfortunately how Palladium is run. I doubt that fact escapes Mike but he is walking a fine line between the fans and the company so lets cut him some slack.
There is a difference between pandering and seeing both sides' potential flaws. In any case, he is the only person who for the past 6 months has given us any insight into the game. Palladium hasn't. Red Duke hasn't. Ninja Division hasn't. He has been able to do so because he walks that line. I don't agree with his position but that doesn't mean he can't state it reasonably.
Sining wrote: Mike, you do realise they're 'supposed' to be professionals not little children we have to coddle right? If they can't take criticism and I'm referring even to those that aren't just personal slurs, then I really think that the problem is on their side and not the backers. They're also not doing us any favours, we paid for stuff in advance, if anything they should be placating the backers and not the other way around !!
I understand that fully. I also understand how I personally would treat veiled threats and outright lies and slander. Criticism is something else, and constructive criticism will go even further. Point being the backers that are yelling and screaming and calling them liars and anyone that supports them as psychophants or shills does absolutely no good and makes it even harder for that backer's concerns to be taken seriously. I also understand that the lack of direct communication in the comments by PB or ND is frustrating and allows the mind to come up with its own conclusions, That is never a good thing. Backers need better information, an although we are not there, I think we are at least on the right track. I also think that the number of updates are pretty much on par with other KS's that I've taken part of. The quality of the updates has improved and we need to push for more improvement and point out where we are not happy. When you have a bunch of backers yelling and screaming "we want more" constantly I think it likely that PB also feels that we the backers also should be adults and not need to be coddled. When we look at things the best way is to try to see both sides and figure out the best way to get the most out of them. Like catching more flies with honey than vinegar. My main concern is waking up KS to these ridiculous statement of all is happy and fine. I have thought of emailing him personally but if he decides to cut me off then I will have absolutely no influence in righting this ship at all. I'm doing what I feel I can and what is appropriate, having all of your help might improve things. I already proposed to some to have us resend the 10 questions asking for more information and additional clarification on several of the questions.
I don't think that will be effective. I notice the only time Kevin responds is on FB. I've been posting when he releases his murmurs. It might help if more people posted in a polite manner their dissatisfaction.
Mike1975 wrote: Point being the backers that are yelling and screaming and calling them liars and anyone that supports them as psychophants or shills does absolutely no good and makes it even harder for that backer's concerns to be taken seriously.
Not all those folks who completely support the way this KS has been run are sychophants; some just chose to be woefully ignorant and chime in with their feelings oblivious of the facts. Palladium has however lied to us. While the whole "ready to go to manufacture in 45 days" thing might be due to poor planning and reasonable mistakes in entering a new field if off by only a few weeks or even months but being off by more than an order of magnitude and claiming being 98% done when not a single portion of ANY part of the project was even close to that was a blatant lie and that makes them liars. There is no way to explain that one off. The minis RENDERS (let alone approvals and sprue layouts) weren't close to completion. The rules weren't close to done and have been changed over the past year. The art wasn't done either seeing as how they're still working on the painting guide. No part of any aspect of this project was done within the 45 day period before supposed manufacture including even setting up the pledge manager and taking our money. They lied plain and simple.
Mike1975 wrote: When you have a bunch of backers yelling and screaming "we want more" constantly I think it likely that PB also feels that we the backers also should be adults and not need to be coddled. When we look at things the best way is to try to see both sides and figure out the best way to get the most out of them. Like catching more flies with honey than vinegar.
Palladium have approached the management of this project like a 3 year old who doesn't yet know that fibbing is naughty. They say want they want to believe facts be damned and just hope that we don't notice. Ninja Division has effectively disowned this and taken the part of the "I don't care" preteen in this family drama. Unfortunately, it is up to backers to play the part of stern parents as much as they can (since we largely have no power beyond annoying palladium and creating bad press). Palladium has proven that they needed to be called on every mistake because they'll cheat more than a TFG in a tourney with no oversight if given the chance.
Unfortunately, much like a small child, you can't just assume Palladium has done their homework. Heck, you can't even just ask them if they did because they'll lie about it. You need to make them show you their homework to double check it is done before letting them go to bed. That unfortunately is the current (and unfortunately long standing) state of project management at this veteran RPG company with decades of work under their belts and backers are doing their best to roleplay the stern parents to Palladium's immature man-child manner of business.
When I back a kickstarter it's usually a small business, or a brand new business so I try and grant a little extra leeway in hiccups in communications or difficulty getting a project launched. But Palladiuam is not a new wet behind the ears company, they've been around for 30+ years so even if they are new to making plastic-robot-mans they certainly shouldn't have to be learning the ropes on how to communicate with their customer base. They are "industry veterans" that have had 30 years to figure that out.
Not saying that there's not some major hurdles in getting a large line of plastic out there, but as an established business they should have their feet well grounded in the customer service department. If half of what I've read on their forums is correct they are at a complete loss on how to implement common technology that the rest of the world started using 20 years ago. Email? what's that? In order to contact Palladium they list their phone number, but not email. You can go through the PITA of filling out a help request ticket, which if you need to send in multiple times sucks . How hard is it to maintain a proper email address for a business? GW does it, PP does it, Heck I can even email the guys at ND if I want. Virtually every company I can think of is available by email, Palladium is the only one I know of that isn't. Even if it's directed to a info address or customer contact desk it's better then request tickets (the response time is usually pretty fast with those other companies, days not weeks).
So even if I were trying to contact them about one of the rpg products that has nothing to do with Robotech it makes it much more difficult then it needs to be. If I had a quick question about one of their rpgs I basically have to call them during office hours and hope I get connected with the right person. It may not seem like a big deal but it can be very intimidating, lots of people would rather just fire off a simple email and not need to worry about hunting down answers in a direct phone call. You also can send emails or have them answered at a very casual pace. Phone calls can be disruptive and take up excessive amounts time, I'd think that having the phone ringing off the hook at my business would likely detract from my workflow. Every time I need to break from work to answer a phone means more downtime and also time spent mentally refreshing before I can plunge back into work as it usually takes a moment or two to remember where you left off and get back into that train of thought. Emails you can answer/address when you are ready and its convenient.
Playing phone tag sucks and in this day and age there's very little reason to do it, most of what customers need can be handled by emails, even if they aren't answered for a day or two it saves a lot of frustration and headache vs trying to pin somebody down on the phone for a simple answer.
Kevin for years has made posts about how many countless hours they all pile into their projects, it may be that they are slaving away churning out word after word for their products, but it may also be possible that part of the delays are due to an insistence on using phones and snail mail for primary contact which continually introduces interruption.
Also from what I've read until recently KS has used wax boards to set up all his stuff for printing, which was a dated process even back in the 70s. It takes forever and day to do that by hand when you can do it on a word processor or a program like In Design. Being a creature of habit is fine, but living too far in the past can severely cripple productivity. This isn't a bash against them, when running a business it's easy to get set in a routine and lose track o f where time and effort is going, but maybe they need to have somebody from outside the company come in and look at their process objectively and see where all that time is going.
When they announce they want to hit 12-13 books a year but deliver on 3, they are either seriously overestimating their ability, or if that estimate is to be believed then they have some serious internal time management issues they need to streamline, which is where a business consultant would be advisable to help figure out where the problems are occurring.
Sorry Mike, I disagree with you completely. A competent project manager would have taken this whole mess, come up with a plan of action and implemented it.
Unhappy customers exist in every field, not just the World of Palladium, if they haven't learnt how to deal with that in a professional manner after this long...
While I appreciate your efforts on this game, you've just turned to "victim bashing", there was nothing the backers could do to influence this project once the funding was collected, you can add me to the list of people ignored by Palladium despite polite communication, before the hate went too far in the comments. Palladium don't care.
paulson games wrote: When they announce they want to hit 12-13 books a year but deliver on 3, they are either seriously overestimating their ability, or if that estimate is to be believed then they have some serious internal time management issues they need to streamline, which is where a business consultant would be advisable to help figure out where the problems are occurring.
You're sadly underestimating the level of fail they've achieved. They hoped for 20+ in 2013... and got one of those planned books out. They did get two more done but one was supposed to be a 2012 title so was a year late post crowdfunding and the other unannounced one was barely a book at 48 pages. The new goal post fresh from the presses yesterday is 4-6 books this summer. I assume they're including the one that is currently at the printer that was crowdfunded in July 2012 and supposed to be out 2-3 months after that.
It is a fact I was lied to on the readiness of PB going to manufacture and more pointedly when we were able to order more models with the backer kit.
It is a fact at this moment I have no information of the state of readiness for each element that makes up "wave 1".
After the release of "wave 1" I think I have few means to put pressure on PB to get the rest of the models to me in the next two years (or possibly ever).
The moments of admitting having "no idea" of progress at various points of the build with Kevin has made zero sense as much as the various statements of 98% completion and "mouth watering" results. Having met him I really think he is a narcissist (personal opinion and having worked with a few) and he will lie to himself quite readily so his opinion of progress is suspect.
This is as stated, a well known process done for well over 3 decades where expert estimation and planning is readily available for injection molding.
There are model kits of the self-same models they are trying to make already in the marketplace for reference.
I have a fairly good understanding of design and manufacture and some experience with managing Chinese manufacturing. I really see no excuse especially with money in hand for PB to not have their facts in order or to at least get a good answer from the experts..
The only anger I would have with this matter is allowing myself to think with other groups involved this project would be "different" than prior PB projects: it is not.
I hear the white knights getting all huffy with "be thankful the models of your dreams GET to be made". They had been out there for decades. But now you can play them with rules! It was called Battletech.
I figure that going into the new year I will find a way to cut my losses with them at whatever point we are at. If it goes into summer of next year does anyone think that is more than adequate to say this kickstarter was not fulfilled?
By the time things hit stores I suspect the momentum will be long gone.
Having read some in another thread, and going through the Myth updates, they shed a little light on how Chinese manufacturing goes. Here is my one big question:
How did the retards at PB lock up manufacturing slots for May/June for these HUGE runs without satisfying the requirements for final prototypes and mold cutting well in advance?? Every other company that is churning out miniatures had their stuff finalized well WELL before the actual output of the figures. Plus, Myth is struggling with the fact that their 2nd wave stuff couldn't all be manufactured at the same time. The factory they were using didn't have enough open space to do it.
But we're supposed to believe that PB has a company that has a solid 4-6 weeks of free open space to allot them and make their plastic man-dollies. If the current trend of PB ineptness is as bad as it seems, I'm not sure they've secured print time.
Does anyone know what the factory needs to secure slots? I imagine they have criteria and a cutoff point, and if you get bumped too many times, I imagine you go to the end of the line and don't have any leverage besides cash at some point. PBs buffoonery knows no bounds...
Talizvar wrote: By the time things hit stores I suspect the momentum will be long gone.
I do think there'll be an uptick of momentum when this project finally gets released. I am concerned that it'll be overwhelmed by secondary market concerns and may cause that momentum to flame out quickly. If the quality of the models aren't what is promised (and we know what a PB promise is worth), rather than what they appear to be, it's quite possible the "bank run" on RTT sales will stick a fork in the project.
And with retailers likely expecting to sell it without steep discounts, I'm skeptical it can recover. PB defenders will occasionally point out that at under $1.50 per figure, the quality of the miniatures isn't bad. And they may have a point. But at over $8 a figure at retail (everything except vanilla Regults, and individual configurations of Valks at $6), they're most definitely not. "But there's internet discounters!" they respond. Yeah, because retailers love it when the product they're wanting to sell, and willing to give shelf/table space to, gets severely undercut by internet dealers.
Couple that with an apparent lack of organized/tourney support (there may be more going on behind the scenes, but I doubt it), and in my wildest dreams, I can't see this flying off the shelf. There's nothing intrinsically bad about it, for the price and quality we're seeing, but this game is IMO 10-20 years too late. I had high hopes, and I do hope it succeeds (cause it's apparently the only way I'll get my money back), but the longer this goes, the less likely I see that happening.
And missing a second KS Update just weeks after promising to do better, with some significant questions and info still needing to be answered (remember, the last official Update has them shipping to backers in 7 weeks, and they still haven't started production). But everyone at Penguicon loved it! Including "several dozen" Kickstarter backers who thought it was AMAZING! Yet not a single one that went out of their way to go to the convention, and talk to Kevin (so, obviously big fans) has commented on either the Kickstarter comments or the Palladium Forums about their experience, even just pointing out how they're not so horrible in person, let alone "delighted", "amazing" (the most common refrain) or "Perfect. They are absolutely perfect.”. Yeah, I wanna call bull-manure on that.
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Salacious Greed wrote: But we're supposed to believe that PB has a company that has a solid 4-6 weeks of free open space to allot them and make their plastic man-dollies. If the current trend of PB ineptness is as bad as it seems, I'm not sure they've secured print time.
Does anyone know what the factory needs to secure slots? I imagine they have criteria and a cutoff point, and if you get bumped too many times, I imagine you go to the end of the line and don't have any leverage besides cash at some point. PBs buffoonery knows no bounds...
While it's obviously bound by the specific contract in place, yes, it's likely most places require some level of completion before progressing, but there's usually a deposit required for the slot, with a non-refundable component. Similarly, the ability to delay production while still staying at the front of the line, can be done easily, but requires a significantly higher deposit (and a renewal of the non-refundable section for each pushback) to maintain priority. And again, if another project is started, the production company are still likely to complete that, as changing molds then changing back is both expensive, time consuming, and can lead to other issues (we once broke a mold getting it out of the mountings, if that happened after starting production, but before completing it, all hell would have broken loose) that the company aren't likely to deal with.
So, with 7 weeks to go until PB start shipping from Michigan (and with another week before they get the Veri PPPrototypes, let alone a test sprue) I doubt giving the go-ahead will result in an immediate start. It'll depend on what's been scheduled before that.
Admittedly, my experience is 30 years old, and in a different medium (metal alloys, not plastic), and while I can see production models changing, I can't see the business models changing THAT much.
I ponted out on the KS comments that Penguincon was just smoke and mirrors, at best the "wow factor" models on show were those from GAMA and any demos must have used the figures and boards from last years Gencon. This is the real reason why there are no pics, the KS community would have seen straight through the lies they posted on their site.
Now someone claims to have the full rulebook and will be demoning next week, posting the gamplay videos, but it it not officially PB....WTF. Okay he has the inside track but this rulebook must have been ready to go weeks ago, so why not let the backers know, What is he using for demos - the old stuff above or new kits - again let us know.
Okay got that out of my system, so can I just put in a kind word for Mike. He comes in for a lot of flak here and on the KS. However in all fairness at least he keeps coming back trying to keep us informed, as best he can. Yes sometimes we do not like the news but that is no reason to shoot the messenger.
The guy with the rulebook is one of the lead playtesters and one of the two folks (the other being Paulson Games here on dakka) who got the Robotech minis game ball rolling a few years ago. It is likely he has a working copy of the rules as a playtester but who knows how recent it is. I doubt the youtube video will show him leafing through every page and about the only way we'd know would be if he did that and it showed all the painting guides that they've been working on.
Some guy on pb Facebook page; and who ironically identified himself as a rabid fanboy, posted some photos of those awesome minis he saw. Guess what? They were photos of the painted ones ND were using along with the monster. No seams gate minis were shown in the pictures. GG Kevin. I guess that's how you sucker people into saying the minis are perfect.
warboss wrote: [..] recognizes the greatness of the mighty Kevin apparently. If you don't meet that criteria, you are forgotten about. Same thing with fans. If you worship at the altar of Siembieda then you're classified as a fan and worthy of giving feedback.
Sining wrote: 2. What does it matter? PBisn't going to listen to any form of criticism, whether it's soft or hard.
paulson games wrote: If you are within Kevin's trusted elite and flatter his ego you have his ear, but the second you provide anything but glowing reviews you are suspect of being in the camp of the enemy.
This isn't unique to robotech, it's been going on for years on their forums and with their own employees/writers/artists.
Honestly I'm surprised that by sending in the compiled questionnaire that you didn't get booted as any indication that they are doing less then perfect seems to provoke their fall back mode of ignore and engage information black out efforts.
Sining wrote: If they can't take criticism and I'm referring even to those that aren't just personal slurs, then I really think that the problem is on their side and not the backers.!
Cypher-xv wrote: I notice the only time Kevin responds is on FB.
warboss wrote: Not all those folks who completely support the way this KS has been run are sycophants; some just chose to be woefully ignorant and chime in with their feelings oblivious of the facts. [..] (since we largely have no power beyond annoying palladium and creating bad press). Palladium has proven that they needed to be called on every mistake because they'll cheat more than a TFG in a tourney with no oversight if given the chance.
Unfortunately, you can't just assume Palladium has done their homework... Heck, you can't even just ask them if they did because they'll lie about it. You need to make them show you their homework to double check it is done... That unfortunately is the current (and unfortunately long standing) state of project management at this veteran (RPG) company with decades of work under their belts and [...] immature man-child manner of business.
paulson games wrote: But Palladium is not a new wet behind the ears company, they've been around for 30+ years so [..] they certainly shouldn't have to be learning the ropes on how to communicate with their customer base. They are "industry veterans" that have had (30) years to figure that out.
Playing phone tag sucks and in this day and age there's very little reason to do it, most of what (customers) need can be handled by emails, even if they aren't answered for a day or two it saves a lot of frustration and headache vs trying to pin somebody down on the phone for a simple answer.
When they announce they want to hit (12-13) books a year but deliver on (3), they are either seriously overestimating their ability, or if that estimate is to be believed then they have some serious internal time management issues they need to streamline, which is where a business consultant would be advisable to help figure out where the problems are occurring.
Joyboozer wrote: Unhappy customers exist in every field, not just the World of Palladium, if they haven't learnt how to deal with that in a professional manner after this long...
While I appreciate your efforts on this game, [..] you can add me to the list of people ignored by Palladium despite polite communication, before the hate went too far in the comments. Palladium don't care.
warboss wrote: You're sadly underestimating the level of fail they've achieved. They hoped for 20+ in 2013... and got one of those planned books out. They did get two more done but one was supposed to be a 2012 title so was a year late post crowdfunding and the other unannounced one was barely a book at 48 pages. The new goal post fresh from the presses yesterday is 4-6 books this summer. I assume they're including the one that is currently at the printer that was crowdfunded in July 2012 and supposed to be out 2-3 months after that.
Talizvar wrote: The moments of admitting having "no idea" of progress at various points of the build with Kevin has made zero sense as much as the various statements of 98% completion and "mouth watering" results. Having met him I really think he is a narcissist (personal opinion and having worked with a few) and he will lie to himself quite readily so his opinion of progress is suspect.
The only anger I would have with this matter is allowing myself to think with other groups involved this project would be "different" than prior PB projects: it is not.
I hear the white knights getting all huffy with "be thankful the models of your dreams GET to be made". They had been out there for decades.
I figure that going into the new year I will find a way to cut my losses with them at whatever point we are at.
By the time things hit stores I suspect the momentum will be long gone.
Salacious Greed wrote: If the current trend of PBineptness is as bad as it seems, I'm not sure they've secured print time. [..] PBs buffoonery knows no bounds...
Morgan Vening wrote: And with retailers likely expecting to sell it without steep discounts, I'm skeptical it can recover.
Couple that with an apparent lack of organized/tourney support (there may be more going on behind the scenes, but I doubt it), and in my wildest dreams, I can't see this flying off the shelf.
But everyone at Penguicon loved it! Including "several dozen" Kickstarter backers who thought it was AMAZING! Yet not a single one that went out of their way to go to the convention, and talk to Kevin (so, obviously big fans) has commented on either the Kickstarter comments or the Palladium Forums about their experience, even just pointing out how they're not so horrible in person, let alone "delighted", "amazing" (the most common refrain) or "Perfect. They are absolutely perfect.”. Yeah, I wanna call bull-manure on that.
Even from just a single (1) page, this could absolutely apply to another game title I know of and worked with - there must be some sort of special management seminar for these folks to allow them to attain this level of epic "head in the sand" thinking.
And considering you can in truth quite often see better concern for customers these days from some guy who is happily producing his own title part-time in his basement, or by the disgusted ex-fans who have walked away from a title whose company now generates nothing except boneheaded shenanigans, just wow.
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Maybe it has to do with the big robot minis/rpg genre. Like the BESM general anime trope, we instead get big ego, small brain on the tabletop manufacturing side. Or it's me since they also have that in common. Anything I seemingly take an interest in cranks the hodor up to 11. :(
I've worked 20 years at jobs that have required doing sales and providing customer service. The key to doing well with both of those is listening to what the customer's needs are and doing what you can to see that those needs are met, even if you can't meet those needs you let them know that you've heard and understand their concerns. That's the cornerstone of building any type of business.
As much as I bash on GW corporate for making dumb choices their customer service staff is really damn good, and most of the local level managers have been excellent as well. They get the fact that retail is a people business and usually bend over backwards to make sure you are happy with your purchase and experience. (Some of the lower tier store employees may not have that same understanding but that can usually be expected from near minimum wage teenagers)
However when I look at the way PB deals with communication it often seems like they adopted their primary mode of operation from the pages of Dilbert.
warboss wrote: Maybe it has to do with the big robot minis/rpg genre. Like the BESM general anime trope, we instead get big ego, small brain on the tabletop manufacturing side. Or it's me since they also have that in common. Anything I seemingly take an interest in cranks the hodor up to 11. :(
Yeah, I know what you mean. Like that Mecha Front guy. What a tool.
Oh, hey Jon!
I thought I saw you saying there may be a delay beyond August for shipping (because of the unlocks), but I can't find it. Can you advise what the pushback will be? Or was it one of my fevered dreams?
If I were running a company that didn't want any sort of accountability with my customers I can see where not putting anything in writing via email or taking pictures would be helpful. Afterall they can't cite you with your own poorly chosen words or cross reference your facts if they never get them to start with. By resorting to phone conversations you simply say oh you misheard what I said and then apply new spin long enough until you can get them off the line.
Photos from the con were posted on FB, looks like the same low quality 3d prints that they've been using for the last year. Hardly what I call ::mouth watering:: or "perfect".
Whatever drugs Kevin is on I wish he'd start sharing as I could really use some rainbows and unicorns in my life.
The monster looks ok, the rest are pretty meh, I think the paint needs a bit more grit to it.
I thought I saw you saying there may be a delay beyond August for shipping (because of the unlocks), but I can't find it. Can you advise what the pushback will be? Or was it one of my fevered dreams?
It's likely going to be Nov, due to all the extra stuff. The updated delivery time was posted in the updates, comments section and on the main page (several days in advance of the KS finishing) that way people would know what to expect prior to it closing, although there was part of me that wanted to keep everyone guessing in the dark like a certain other ks. I can always start ignoring my backers if it helps you feel more at home.
I thought I saw you saying there may be a delay beyond August for shipping (because of the unlocks), but I can't find it. Can you advise what the pushback will be? Or was it one of my fevered dreams?
It's likely going to be Nov, due to all the extra stuff. The updated delivery time was posted in the updates, comments section and on the main (page several days in advance of the KS finishing) that way people would know what to expect prior to it closeing, although there was part of me that wanted to keep everyone guessing in the dark like a certain other ks. I can always start ignoring my backers if it helps you feel more at home.
Love the GIF. May have to co-opt (ie, steal) it. Just wish it had some teeny tiny white knights dancing in the splash.
And yeah, silly me, I was looking at stuff POST end of close. Cause someone actually keeping people up to date BEFORE it's well past the chance to make the release date is all confusing and wrong. As is you responding to a direct question in person, within a couple of hours. You need to cut that crap out. If someone asks you a direct question, you have to wait 6+ weeks, and then have the answer passed through a quasi-official intermediary, or just fail to answer completely and marginalize the questioner as a vocal minority.
Back to the issue at hand, the Monster's got some pretty bad seams too. The leg ones don't seem horrible, but that could just be the shadows. But the problem ones are the one on the top back of the torso, one on the front, and I'm hoping that groove along the top of the arm is part of the design, because if not, waow.
I'm surprised they bothered with cap-pieces for the Glaug's arm pods. Given that would have been the best solution for the apparently much vaunted by Kevin Gnerls (I assume that's what he's referring to with "Fighter Pod"), that has the huge seam right up the middle of the cockpit. While I've been a significant critic of the parts count (hey, it's the main reason I want a refund), adding an extra part to the Gnerl to completely avoid that seam, seems like the right thing to do. I mean, if you're design principle is quality and accuracy, that is.
You know what I'm really looking forward to seeing? Khyron's Glaug. I'm really interested in seeing what lengths they're going to have to go to, to make the "open cockpit" variant that was promised in the campaign. The Miriya FPA isn't going to be as bad, cause it's just a head, no? But a fully rendered upper torso (at least) and cockpit controls, that fit into that space, given the apparent limitations of the design and production companies, that should be worth a serious giggle. Or do you think they'll do what they did with the Tomahawk/Defender, blow it off as too hard, then issue an incredibly vague statement in the comments section (not in an official Update) that if you squint, tilt your head just so, and punch yourself right between the eyes, will seem to absolve them of their promise, at least to the PB defenders?
Has anyone got any details of their correspondence outside of the KS updates regarding their plans for Gencon and the current non-status of production in China?
Stuff buried in the comments, facebook comments, etc. Ideally with the URLs?
Yes, I'm putting together the documentation for my chargeback at my bank's request. I'll be happy to pass all of it on to anyone else interested after I've finished it, with just my personal correspondence removed. To keep things simple, I'm not going for "quality" since that's something which is obviously a personal judgement (as Kevin keeps showing us with his "perfect" models) but the more quantitative things like rolling lies regarding delivery dates and just how finished things are(nt) since the "45 days" promise. I'm most interested in fake promises regarding Gencon and information that displays just how impossible a task that actually is.
thanks!
Automatically Appended Next Post: The "maybe October or November" post would be great as well.
Also the "May, maybe June" and "June, maybe July" posts.
warboss wrote: That isn't unfortunately how Palladium is run. I doubt that fact escapes Mike but he is walking a fine line between the fans and the company so lets cut him some slack.
And I do so more because of what their reputation is. I might be able to push PB much more than I have been but with their reputation I'm not sure that it is a good idea to try. I wish I knew exactly how far I could push this line. I'd ride it every day.
"The Kickstarter is done, now it’s time to get the Robotech® RPG Tactics™ game, sculptures, graphics, packaging and all the rest completely finished over the next few weeks. Then we send it into manufacturing overseas. With any luck, we’ll have Kickstarter materials shipping to you by October or November (no promises) and the retail product hitting store shelves by November or December. We do not have a release schedule yet, but I’ll let you know when we do; probably in a few weeks."
"Release Dates: Ships in early June to Kickstarter supporters. Ships a few weeks later to distributors. Should be in your hands no later than June and in stores by the beginning of July, 2014."
Mar 18 2014 on Update #135: Spartan Followup from the project Robotech® RPG Tactics™.
" We're sorry about the delay in delivering the rewards for this project, but it is coming, and soon. There is no question about whether we will deliver. If something were to happen that would cause us to be unable to deliver, we would, of course, offer refunds as Kickstarter's terms dictate. But that is not the case here; not even close. We'll deliver as promised, as soon as we can. Wave One will deliver in June or July, as we've said before. Wave Two by the end of the year, hopefully well before."
I think the "June, maybe May" was part of the front page of their site RRT press release, which they've simply been updating every so often. Possibly could be found with the waybackmachine or another such service.
If you search Morgan's posts, he has the backsliding release dates covered pretty well. Basically, around a month or so before the date they'd bump it back another couple months.
Update 128 on Jan 30th is where they finally admit to going with 2 waves of shipping. It took them 8 months to realize they couldn't deliver the whole project at once and tell us about it.
"Barring any unexpected delays, the Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Box Game and initial expansion sets should go to manufacturing within 45 after the Kickstarter. That’s fast. An exact street date is unknown at this time and we’d rather not speculate, but definitely 2013."
Joyboozer wrote: Sorry Mike, I disagree with you completely. A competent project manager would have taken this whole mess, come up with a plan of action and implemented it.
Unhappy customers exist in every field, not just the World of Palladium, if they haven't learnt how to deal with that in a professional manner after this long...
While I appreciate your efforts on this game, you've just turned to "victim bashing", there was nothing the backers could do to influence this project once the funding was collected, you can add me to the list of people ignored by Palladium despite polite communication, before the hate went too far in the comments. Palladium don't care.
On one point I agree with you and have from the start. PB should have hired a PM and a PR manager for this. I'm working on a Masters and I've taken a lot of PM classes and did not need that to see the GLARING mistakes that PB has and is making. That being said, the 10 questions have helped some, PB has realized on a very small level that they need to work to improve and have made steps. Those steps are far from adequate but at least it is something. If not for the community coming together some that would never have been possible.
I have been able to also share some insights on rules and influence some clarifications and have been able to write a detailed review and will write more. If one decides to read those reviews with care they will be able to fully understand the rules and how they work before even playing. Do I wish this was necessary? Hell No! It's a lot of work.
Talizvar wrote: It is a fact I was lied to on the readiness of PB going to manufacture and more pointedly when we were able to order more models with the backer kit.
It is a fact at this moment I have no information of the state of readiness for each element that makes up "wave 1".
After the release of "wave 1" I think I have few means to put pressure on PB to get the rest of the models to me in the next two years (or possibly ever).
The moments of admitting having "no idea" of progress at various points of the build with Kevin has made zero sense as much as the various statements of 98% completion and "mouth watering" results. Having met him I really think he is a narcissist (personal opinion and having worked with a few) and he will lie to himself quite readily so his opinion of progress is suspect.
This is as stated, a well known process done for well over 3 decades where expert estimation and planning is readily available for injection molding.
There are model kits of the self-same models they are trying to make already in the marketplace for reference.
I have a fairly good understanding of design and manufacture and some experience with managing Chinese manufacturing. I really see no excuse especially with money in hand for PB to not have their facts in order or to at least get a good answer from the experts..
The only anger I would have with this matter is allowing myself to think with other groups involved this project would be "different" than prior PB projects: it is not.
I hear the white knights getting all huffy with "be thankful the models of your dreams GET to be made". They had been out there for decades. But now you can play them with rules! It was called Battletech.
I figure that going into the new year I will find a way to cut my losses with them at whatever point we are at. If it goes into summer of next year does anyone think that is more than adequate to say this kickstarter was not fulfilled?
By the time things hit stores I suspect the momentum will be long gone.
They did lie or rather by not clarifying immediately allowed a lie to continue. They should have realized from the start that things would not be done because of all of their extra promises and just like Obama, instead of coming clean they doubled down on what they had said. Very sad. If they had been up front we would have been better off. Then with all the extra $ that came in they decided to redesign everything and went from 2x as bad to 4x. I'm not sure who's decision it was to go with the Models and not the MInis, I suspect HG and PB supported that and shafted ND, that is when the break appeared to start. I'm hopeful that I can still have some decent looking minis at the end of the day. At least I only paid ~$2 each. For me that might be a lot less of a hurt than for many others so I feel for others when they get upset, they have reason to be.
What does annoy me are baseless and foundationless claims that come out that are not even borderline ridiculous. For the most part those who make those wild claims have not listened to me as much as I had hoped about how the claims can make them look foolish. As I predicted they have not gained nearly as much ground as they had hoped. Well founded claims made with a stern demeanor but without the fluff and name calling and outright hate would have gotten much more traction. I'm not sure if we are better off one way or the other but the facts speak for themselves. Do I want PB to fail? meh, Do I want Tactics to fail? No way! Unfortunately right now they are one and the same.
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stanman wrote: If I were running a company that didn't want any sort of accountability with my customers I can see where not putting anything in writing via email or taking pictures would be helpful. Afterall they can't cite you with your own poorly chosen words or cross reference your facts if they never get them to start with. By resorting to phone conversations you simply say oh you misheard what I said and then apply new spin long enough until you can get them off the line.
Photos from the con were posted on FB, looks like the same low quality 3d prints that they've been using for the last year. Hardly what I call ::mouth watering:: or "perfect".
Whatever drugs Kevin is on I wish he'd start sharing as I could really use some rainbows and unicorns in my life.
The monster looks ok, the rest are pretty meh, I think the paint needs a bit more grit to it.
That Monster looks Identical to the old 1980's one I bought from Jon a while back. Same seams on the feet and all.
The Glaug looks good.
Both veritechs are the original ones, I don't think either is based off of what we'll get.
Mike1975 wrote: What does annoy me are baseless and foundationless claims that come out that are not even borderline ridiculous. For the most part those who make those wild claims have not listened to me as much as I had hoped about how the claims can make them look foolish. As I predicted they have not gained nearly as much ground as they had hoped.
Well founded claims made with a stern demeanor but without the fluff and name calling and outright hate would have gotten much more traction. I'm not sure if we are better off one way or the other but the facts speak for themselves. Do I want PB to fail? meh, Do I want Tactics to fail? No way! Unfortunately right now they are one and the same.
I don't follow the ks comments too much, so I was wondering what some of the baseless claims are? I know there's a lot made up flak going around, but when people don't cite specific posts it does get confusing when blanket posts are made as it's hard to distinguish which ones you are actually taking aim at.
A lot of my posts get written off by the fan boys simply because I me and they assume I'm just in a haters camp, I can be very critical at times but I still want to see the best outcome for the game and models. (Could care less about what happens to PB though). With a group of pro-PB white knight posters who automatically rail against anything I post sometimes it's hard to tell if I'm being heard for what I'm trying to say or if people just see it as hating.
That Monster looks Identical to the old 1980's one I bought from Jon a while back. Same seams on the feet and all.
The Glaug looks good.
Both veritechs are the original ones, I don't think either is based off of what we'll get.
I think the parts break down on pretty much all the models match the 80's Nichimo kits, which obviously works but there's a couple spots where it causes issues due to the reduced scale. Also a few areas on these models could have been approached much better, for example the face plate on the glaug is split down the center, cleaning and filling round surfaces like the eye lens is complete suckage. I believe on the larger scale glaug models the face plate is one piece, and works much like the end caps on the arm guns. Since all of the detail appears to be entirely on the front of the face I don't understand why they split it down the middle. Rotate the piece 90 degrees and have the mold line run at the rear edge of the face plate so it doesn't gum up the face detail.
The Spartan missile doors are in the same category, the detail is all on the face so they could have situated it in the mold as one piece with the mold line running down the sides of the door instead of the faces.
Instead of mold lines which are easy to scrape off we now have seem lines running straight over detailed surfaces. (Seem lines also being much more difficult to work with).
IMO it looks like they followed all the 80's kits almost exactly but for whatever reason split some of the pieces that didn't need to be split and unfortunately those are on focal areas of the model. (The heads and chests) I really don't get why some of the parts aren't just solid shot pieces more like the z pod legs, it would add to the durability, lower the part count, and make assembly much better. Some of the pieces do need to be split to get the detail on the correct facings but not all of them need to be parted like that.
It doesn't kill the model in terms of use, but there are a number of needless complications in the designs.
So far the Zentraedi stuff has been looking the best, the destroids and veritechs not so much.
Mike1975 wrote: What does annoy me are baseless and foundationless claims that come out that are not even borderline ridiculous. For the most part those who make those wild claims have not listened to me as much as I had hoped about how the claims can make them look foolish. As I predicted they have not gained nearly as much ground as they had hoped.
Well founded claims made with a stern demeanor but without the fluff and name calling and outright hate would have gotten much more traction. I'm not sure if we are better off one way or the other but the facts speak for themselves. Do I want PB to fail? meh, Do I want Tactics to fail? No way! Unfortunately right now they are one and the same.
I don't follow the ks comments too much, so I was wondering what some of the baseless claims are? I know there's a lot made up flak going around, but when people don't cite specific posts it does get confusing when blanket posts are made as it's hard to distinguish which ones you are actually taking aim at.
A lot of my posts get written off by the fan boys simply because I me and they assume I'm just in a haters camp, I can be very critical at times but I still want to see the best outcome for the game and models. (Could care less about what happens to PB though). With a group of pro-PB white knight posters who automatically rail against anything I post sometimes it's hard to tell if I'm being heard for what I'm trying to say or if people just see it as hating.
That Monster looks Identical to the old 1980's one I bought from Jon a while back. Same seams on the feet and all.
The Glaug looks good.
Both veritechs are the original ones, I don't think either is based off of what we'll get.
I think the parts break down on pretty much all the models match the 80's Nichimo kits, which obviously works but there's a couple spots where it causes issues due to the reduced scale. Also a few areas could have been approached much better, for example the face plate on the glaug is split down the center and cleaning and filling round surfaces is the complete suck. I believe on the larger scale glaug models the face plate is one piece, and works much like the caps on the arm guns. Since all of the detail appears to be entirely on the front of the face I don't understand why they split it down the middle.
The Spartan missile doors are in the same category, the detail is all on the face so they could have situated it in the mold as one piece with the part down running down the sides of the door instead of the faces.
IMO it looks like they followed all the 80's kits almost exactly but for whatever reason split some of the pieces that didn't need to be split and unfortunately those are on focal areas of the model. (The heads and chests) I really don't get why some of the parts aren't just solid shot pieces more like the z pod legs, it would add to the durability, lower the part count, and make assembly much better. Some of the pieces do need to be split to get the detail on the correct facings but not all of them need to be parted like that.
It doesn't kill the model in terms of use, but there are a number of needless complications in the designs.
I don't think I've noticed any of your posts specifically, I purposely made it vague as to not point out 3 or 4 individuals that are the most common culprits. Saying things like PB has never had any intention to supply product, blantantly lied to gain more backers and others are just plain untrue. I can go and look for them but there is no real point. That they have not been as up front, definitely, but there are some accusations that have definitely died out quite a bit and I feel no reason to bring them back up. People buying houses etc. I'm not one to hold a grudge so I don't typically categorize and file these things away in memory to use at a later date. It does however remain on my mind when communicating with those individuals, especially those who are very quick to put down others when they bring up good points or simply drop the bad points that they make and do not apologize at all. Character shows and I do take note quite well of the level and greatness of character in others. Yours to date has been quite fair and level headed, I'm sorry if you felt that I may have implied you specifically.
I didn't really take it that way, but with so many posts especially on the KS comments and FB page it does get confusing when you vent here when something occurs on a different forum. I freely admit there's times where I toss out some mean spirited jabs in regards to the ks but I think they've earned them.
FB was getting very weird as I finally gave up and blocked several people then I was only seeing partial comments and that's even worse. Got really tired of the constant white knights comments even when stuff has absolutely nothing to do with robotech. Not everyone that disagrees with KS/PB is out to burn their houses down, yet they react that way. At even the slightest suggestion you dislike an aspect of what's happening (minor aspects, not the whole project) they freak out like you're a heretic or doomsaying witch. I dropped from the FB page as I'm just tired of the Cult of Kevin inductees that are on there and take up objections to everything, thank god I steer clear of the ks page or forums as I know it's so much worse on those.
So with the first Demo basically done, I was waiting to see if anyone wanted me to play it out to the death, but seems like nobody was interested or nobody read the write up. The next combat is between 4 Armored VT's and 12 Regults, a Scout, and a Glaug. The Armored VT's can take a massive pounding at 22 points and fire massive volleys of 8 missiles.
The UEDF can try to stay close and just unleash missiles at anything that comes into range hoping to destroy it. They are ...slow but can fly so staying inside or around cover and waiting for the Zen to approach might be to their advantage. They definitely need to draw the Zentraedi away from their deployment zone and kill the scout and Glaug. The Scout will make it difficult to take advantage of the missiles since it allows the Zen player to give his units a +1 strike bonus and gives a -1 strike bonus to enemies. This makes it easier for the other pods to Dodge missiles since the VT attack rolls will be lower.
The Zentraedi can either bunch up around the scout and Glaug OR they can try to split into groups and flank the VT's since they are so much faster. The Regult's weapons have the same range as the missiles for the VT's so they have to get into missile range to attack. The VT's on the other hand have a slight range advantage with the GU-11 and it's 24 inch range. The Glaug's top cannon has more Range than the Regults. It might be ideal to use some mobility to try to split up the VT's.
What details would you like to know on these units and what strategy do you think that they should employ?
Mike - I am interested in your write up and am (slowly, on a phone, on a train) reading it. No strong desire for you to play out more than you want but I do appreciate all the effort you're going to.
People can also find me in the Northwest Suburbs of Chicago, IL.
For those that can't be bothered to click through, here's the pertinent point (which should in no way surprise anyone at all).
"Palladium Books has delayed the release date for Robotech RPG Tactics another month, with the highly anticipated miniatures game now projected for "an end of July or August ship date."
Note, far as I'm aware this is specifically referring to retail.
We'll need to wait for our own special "backers delivery gets pushed back officially too!" message, presumably this week in the newsletter or maybe the biweekly update that is supposed to be weekly but whatever.
Forar wrote: For those that can't be bothered to click through, here's the pertinent point (which should in no way surprise anyone at all).
"Palladium Books has delayed the release date for Robotech RPG Tactics another month, with the highly anticipated miniatures game now projected for "an end of July or August ship date."
Note, far as I'm aware this is specifically referring to retail.
We'll need to wait for our own special "backers delivery gets pushed back officially too!" message, presumably this week in the newsletter or maybe the biweekly update that is supposed to be weekly but whatever.
According to the poll on the official forum, it should surprise at least one very gullible person.
Thanks for that Warboss. I really was in a foul mood earlier, and that brightened my day considerably.
Edit:
Personally, I don't give a when wave 1 arrives. I have nothing in it. I only went in for the SDF-1, and the special characters as I am a modeller more than a gamer and, well, nostalgia. So I am just hoping I have my minis by the time I retire. In 7422 days.
Honestly, even we don’t fully understand why manufacturing has been delayed for so long. Much of it has been completely out of our hands," they said in a new trade solicitation. "Like you, we assume they are doing everything in their power to make this the best product possible and to get Robotech RPG Tactics to market as quickly as possible. Apparently, there were delays and problems getting the molds broken down into sprues and done right. But we’re moving forward again, and all components are looking gorgeous."
It's one thing that they threw ND under the buss when talking to the backers, but repeating that same thing in a trade solicitation? That's just low. "We have no idea whats going on, but we're mostly sure it's not our fault. Not that there's anything wrong. Everything's GORGEOUS" Jazz Hands
They really come off as incompetent finger pointers. Who would ever want to partner with these guys ever again?
Honestly, even we don’t fully understand why manufacturing has been delayed for so long. Much of it has been completely out of our hands," they said in a new trade solicitation. "Like you, we assume they are doing everything in their power to make this the best product possible and to get Robotech RPG Tactics to market as quickly as possible. Apparently, there were delays and problems getting the molds broken down into sprues and done right. But we’re moving forward again, and all components are looking gorgeous."
It's one thing that they threw ND under the buss when talking to the backers, but repeating that same thing in a trade solicitation? That's just low. "We have no idea whats going on, but we're mostly sure it's not our fault. Not that there's anything wrong. Everything's GORGEOUS" Jazz Hands
They really come off as incompetent finger pointers. Who would ever want to partner with these guys ever again?
There isn't enough face palm for this.
No to mention that fact that PB says that they don't fully understand why it's been delayed....as de facto Project Managers that is something they should be intimate with. Now they make it appear as if they are bystanders in it all....which may be true....but in my mind.....I don't know which is worse.
They "assume"? Well, that explains alot... like why they thought for two weeks that the check.. .err valkyrie sprues... were in the mail. It took them two weeks to find out that the dog ate their homework... I mean renders.. and that they needed to work on them some more. Is there any other cliche besides spousal abuse that I'm missing with regards to Palladium and how they're handling the project that they're managing.. I mean assuming stuff about?
No to mention that fact that PB says that they don't fully understand why it's been delayed....as de facto Project Managers that is something they should be intimate with. Now they make it appear as if they are bystanders in it all....which may be true....but in my mind.....I don't know which is worse.
It's a textbook example of what not to say to people you want to give you money in exchange for goods and services.
I've learned my lesson. Palladium is a company you don't give money to until after the work is done. If at all.
Thanks for posting the pics, Mike. The art looks alot better than the typical B&W art you see in Palladium books (although the macross and TSC books had good line art).
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Joyboozer wrote: Awesome, can't wait to recreate the poses from the artwork with my miniatures!
Oh, wait....
Not to worry... you should be able to make this action pose with your mouth watering minis! Actually, you may only be able to make that pose with some of the minis if the destroids are any indication...
There are other pics but they are of the 3D models and older sculpts that they have for the Demo so I did not bother to post them. The book has some great artwork and will look fantastic.
Those are all stuff from PB/ND, several of the sculpts shown I never made (veritech in the zentraedi jacket for example). I can also spot several differences in the models for the defender, tomawhawk and regults, so I know they are not sculpts I ever worked on.
Besides even despite the grainy picture and being in the distance you can see the seam line on the chest and legs clear as day on that destroid, none of my stuff has ever had seams. (much less on forward faces, if mine had anything noticeable it would be mold lines which are raised, and would have been on the sides)
So those are certainly not anything I made.
(I only gave away about 30 models total at adepticon, so unless they were recasts it's unlikely anybody has more than 1-2 copies of any of my pods).
Putting one of those next to a lego minifig really puts it into perspective.
I mean, intellectually, I know how big something 1-2 inches tall is. I can go get a ruler and see exactly how big it is. But that kind of perspective shot really brings it home.
Those are all stuff from PB/ND, several of the sculpts shown I never made (veritech in the zentraedi jacket for example). I can also spot several differences in the models for the defender, tomawhawk and regults, so I know they are not sculpts I ever worked on.
Besides even despite the grainy picture and being in the distance you can see the seem line on the chest and legs clear as day on that destroid, none of my stuff has ever had seems. (much less on forward faces, if mine had anything noticeable it would be mold lines which are raised, and would have been on the sides)
So those are certainly not anything I made.
(I only gave away about 30 models total at adepticon, so unless they were recasts it's unlikely anybody has more than 1-2 copies of any of my pods).
I was referring to the dozens of 1/200 scale plastic kits that you spent years collecting and that you were selling here in this thread.
I have dozens of them left over from when I was working on my initial version of the game. I have probably around 45-50 of the various pods, veritechs in all 3 forms plus super and armored version, 3-4 of each destroid including the Mac II. I have zero interests in Robotech anymore (thanks to Palladium) and the models are taking up too much room and figured I'd see if anyone is looking for some before they hit ebay. Plenty of additional stuff on sprue that's not pictured.
and it was sooo nice to just open up the platics baggies and throw these together in just a few seconds. I wish we had something like this for Tactics but with the sheer number of units the game is designed to handle not only would the costs have been prohibitive but the pledges would probably have had to have cost 3X or more for the same number of minis. I got 9 figs for $50 on ebay and then 10 more for like $25 off of the link above. Note: the NORMAL price would have been like $65 shipped or $6.5 per mini. I think I got mine fot about $2 each from the KS.
For a quick and dirty number, that sort of averaging works out, but there'll be a significant difference between, say, Destroids and a MAC II bought as an add on. Despite how it breaks down at a glance, that MAC II cost a hell of a lot more than $2.
Though if anyone wants to sell RRT MAC II's for $2, I will take that offer in a heartbeat.
I did some estimates on the comparitive prices between retail and the Battle Cry and weighted them out accordingly, it made for some interesting figures on cost per box and cost per mini. It's a great deal, no doubt, but just because we backers effectively got VT packs for $9 or whatever won't hold true at retail, and that's where things are going to get interesting. Obviously there's demand for "96 figures for $140-170", but will 6 figures sell for $37 MSRP (presumably more like 25-30 depending on local taxes and possibly shipping, etc)? That remains to be seen. Especially in the bulk numbers this game clearly wants it to.
I have a sneaking suspicion that the 4 kits found in the Core Box aren't going to sell very strongly unless the demand is excessive and cores become all but impossible to find until another print run is done.
and it was sooo nice to just open up the platics baggies and throw these together in just a few seconds. I wish we had something like this for Tactics but with the sheer number of units the game is designed to handle not only would the costs have been prohibitive but the pledges would probably have had to have cost 3X or more for the same number of minis. I got 9 figs for $50 on ebay and then 10 more for like $25 off of the link above. Note: the NORMAL price would have been like $65 shipped or $6.5 per mini. I think I got mine fot about $2 each from the KS.
I don't understand.
~$25 shipped for 10 minis (random, unfortunately) plus $50 for 9 more is ~$75 for 19 minis... Quoting the "regular" price when the sale price is so available is kind of silly. That's like comparing the KS price with the retail price.
warboss wrote: I was referring to the dozens of 1/200 scale plastic kits that you spent years collecting and that you were selling here in this thread.
Ah gotcha. Misunderstood the original post.
Only sold the nichimo monster kit to Mike, the rest of my 1/200 nichimo kits went to a guy in St Louis.
warboss wrote: They "assume"? Well, that explains alot... like why they thought for two weeks that the check.. .err valkyrie sprues... were in the mail. It took them two weeks to find out that the dog ate their homework... I mean renders.. and that they needed to work on them some more. Is there any other cliche besides spousal abuse that I'm missing with regards to Palladium and how they're handling the project that they're managing.. I mean assuming stuff about?
You forgot RSO's favorite: Death/disease in the family.
That s true. Palladium actually does use the plague excuse on a monthly basis to hand wave away unproductive weeks. Ironically palladium toxicity does affect the bone marrow and potentially weaken the immune system so the name of the company may be at fault. Perhaps they should change it to 98% Absolutely Perfect Fan Friend Finalized Pencil, Mug, and Occasionally Game CompanyTM. I'm sure the dozens of fans as Penguincon would have found the name acceptable!
I have seen more pictures of poultry on PB's Facebook page than the minis... It's getting really irritating.. They're soooooo busy that they have time to post 100 pics and video of ducks and turkeys.. what. the. hell.
Hey, all. Just a very quick Update and a couple of photos today. I’ll have much more to post later this week.
Why do I say that? Because Ninja John received these last night, and they’re now on their way to us:
And so are these:
We should get them tomorrow. Jeff and I will then have to examine them all very carefully, and get any changes or approvals back to the factory as quickly as we can, because the final bits of tooling can begin as soon as we say “go.” We’re hopefully just a couple of weeks away from production beginning in earnest.
And just to quickly address some concerns over a story some of you have seen on an industry news site, please keep in mind that the info they quote came from a press release we sent to our distributors. The dates they mention are what we told our distributors, because that’s when we expect to ship retail product to them. That’s not when you guys get yours, because we ship yours first.
Bear with us, folks. We’re in the home stretch.
I'm not sure how we're going to still get those by June since that is the current official date when the pics of the valkyries are just 3d prototypes and NOT from the sprues. The battlepod prototypes took from Christmas till just a few weeks ago (about 3-4 months) to get to the sprue test stage which puts the valkyries there sometime around august. At least it looks like they did listen to feedback about the insane number of pieces as the VF1A head and legs now look to be one piece.
warboss wrote: I'm not sure how we're going to still get those by June since that is the current official date when the pics of the valkyries are just 3d prototypes and NOT from the sprues. The battlepod prototypes took from Christmas till just a few weeks ago (about 3-4 months) to get to the sprue test stage which puts the valkyries there sometime around august. At least it looks like they did listen to feedback about the insane number of pieces as the VF1A head and legs now look to be one piece.
Once they're in final mode (hah! I used the F word!), it doesn't take that long to actually turn from a digital master into a milled mold. The advance of computer driven mastering has made that a quick process. But as you mention, not an instantaneous one. Making the June release date is a pipe dream, IMO. Especially as I ran the math with Forar, and "three to four semi loads" (assuming they use standard 40' containers), likely puts the print run at least double what the backers have pledged for, and depending on compaction could be four or more times that). I have seen noone with anything beyond wishful thinking disagree with the 18 day runtime to do the Regults for the KS pledge (doubled to quadrupled for the amount expected), let alone time required for packing, customs, loading and waiting for the ship to fill, shipping 6000 miles across the Pacific, unloading, customs again (the more strict kind), shipping to Detroit (another 2000 miles), sorting, collating, checking, packing, and shipping. They've got 92.5 days to get it done for GenCon, significantly less for June. And easily half of that could be just the boat (Customs to Customs).
As for the VF1 component size, that could just be the 3D printing method (which allows for undercuts). We likely won't know whether that'll hold up under conversion to sprue, until we see the sprue.
Someone on the KS comments brought this up, and it's true, there ARE seams on the valkyrie parts and it seems like they assembled them before taking photos....
What planet are these people from? For Wave 1, I would label "my package is in the mail" to be the home stretch. These blithering idiots don't even have all the molds milled, and they think they're in the home stretch?
I think we should run a KS to catalog, record and label KS companies with KS Ratings. The Palladium rating would be just above "Utter Failure, Stole Your Money". The Palladium rating would include, but not limited to: Incomprehensible, Incoherent, Incompetent. Zero to negative management skills and coordination. Less reliable forecasting than Nostradamus. Backing this Rating of Kickstarters would make you a Nostra-dumb-ass. While you WILL receive something, you will have essentially been fleeced of your capital through sheer incompetence, lies of omission and lack of any identifiable professional skillset. Expect this KS to deliver 1-2 years late, or be downgraded to Black Hole.
From investigating WGF's process it's my understanding that once the final approval is given that the molds can be cut inside 2-3 days if they really push. Standard time is usually about a week per mold. If they have multiple mills running at the same time they could potentially crank out several sets of molds at the same time.
Most of the time comes from the pre-set up work, finalizing the 3d, setting up the draft angles, cutting and sprue work for test shots. Then once everything is approved they remill with a final mold.
I'd be very surprised if those arms and legs aren't preassembled. It would be great but that we only see one "jet body" for the fighter and valk modes is a bit of a give away. They're almost certainly cast in at least two pieces (top and bottom).
Forar wrote: Damn.
Putting one of those next to a lego minifig really puts it into perspective.
I mean, intellectually, I know how big something 1-2 inches tall is. I can go get a ruler and see exactly how big it is. But that kind of perspective shot really brings it home.
Looking at the pics zoomed in, it does look like those arms and legs are two pieces. They don't seem as bad as the destroids though, but man, what a bunch of pieces, especially considering you need all three models to field one Valkyrie. Last time I let nostalgia get the best of me...oh well.
On an unrelated subject, do people sell books in the swap shop? I've got some old school Battletech stuff I'd like to part ways with.
Sining wrote: Someone on the KS comments brought this up, and it's true, there ARE seams on the valkyrie parts and it seems like they assembled them before taking photos....
That is a good observation and one that I missed in my earlier statement. One thing I'd add as another possibility (albeit on that has a bit of tinfoil hat in it) is that it is indeed the final version of the piece but was created the quick and easy route in the renders by simply joining the two together without further modifying the file to avoid having to get more HG approvals. That is probably the least likely but with how bad things have gone in this project I wouldn't disgard it just yet.
All Quiet on The Martian Front ended 2 weeks after the RTKS.
It's a company smaller than PB, which is ludicrous anyway.
It's their first game that I know of, and first foray into miniatures, again that I know of.
That stuff is closer to being in my hands than RRT. The minis look better, and better made as well.
I've never quoted myself, but I still think it's pretty damning against PB that scenarios like this exist.
I also just got my Email today that this KS is starting to ship.
These guys spun up an entire game and miniatures line with less of everything than PB/ND, and will beat them in every step of business related to their respective Kickstarters.
I have shocking proof that certain mammals can indeed release rainbows from their orifices! This unfortunately reinforces the Cult of Kevin's beliefs in the Siembadassiah but stops short of completely proving it till North Korea releases pictures of their unicorns to corrorobate the other half of his legendary flatus. I still don't believe though (yet!) that my mouth will water when I see the minis first hand.
Sining Ong
Dear ninjas, why did you guys partially assemble these figures? It misled a lot of people into thinking the Valkyrie's aren't in that many parts but there are seams on the arms which means they've already been assembled. These are very deceptive practices http://palladiumbooks.com/cuttingroom/Official/Robotech-RPG-Tactics/Valkyrie-proto.jpg Like · · Yesterday at 1:55am via mobile
Ninja Division Hi Sining,
We do not participate in deceptive practices... we are ninjas after all! But seriously, the early photographs of the miniatures you are seeing are production/prototypes of the miniatures before they go into tooling.
Miniatures are highly detailed, and will require assembly, and necessarily be assembled from parts depending on the complexity of the miniature, some of which required by our striving to maintain a high fidelity to the original concepts and artwork - but also, something not out the realm of expectation and ability of new and veteran hobbyists.
Example - Zentraedi battle pod, at my last count had 12 pieces including the base, which I managed to assemble 3 of them in under 15 minutes.
Its a wonderful plastic and takes glues very well.
The Valkyrie fighter is 6 parts, and add on missiles to your own flavor...
The Battloid, depending on build between 12-15 pieces (as some heads and arms are in multiple parts)
I really hope you enjoy them as much as we are in getting ready to launch.
Yeah, those mother-fethers assembled all the pieces into "components" for that picture. I despise ND for the churching up and unnecessary semantics of their reply, as it comes off as very High Horse. They are just as bad as PB in my eyes with that reply.
And a battlepod is, by his count, 12 pieces. To build a legal Veritech you need all modes, so 12-15 for battloid, 6 plus missiles for fighter plus ? for gerwalk. 30+ pieces for one game piece.
I can see a lot of Zentaedi forces being completed and a lot fewer Valkyries. At least the destroids only require one model.
Those Valkyries are going to need a LOT of work if you want decent models. Reasonable game pieces may be possible in a reasonable time frame, but nothing like the 'quality' that PB have been leading us to expect.
Although I've been bitching that I will likely not get anything this year, I have nothing I expect to be in wave 1, at least I won't have anywhere near as much repair and cover-up work as those who went in deep for the game and now have hundreds of models to work on.
Every time something is misrepresented, it makes us go looking for more.
When small matters cannot be presented accurately it makes you wonder how correct the larger issues are presented.
A great deal of trust has been thrown out the window so all of us as backers keep looking for a plan "B" if it all goes bad because historically PB promises things for years at a time. To state plainly: at some point you get so tired of the BS you just want to cut your losses to not deal with them anymore (or at least where I can see myself in the next year).
I strongly suspect the "wave 2" will only happen as fast as when/if PB wants to publish the Invid Invasion saga. Can anyone forsee 2-3 years from now? That would be based on how "brisk" the retail sales go of Wave 1.
These communications with their various "spin" just feel... insulting. Looking at the "All's quiet on the Martian Front" communication seems straight shooting and gives clear progress. It is this contrast that seems particularly damning for PB and ND.
Bah, I rant, I repeat myself, I do not get proven wrong (other than things being WORSE than I predicted).... JAZZ HANDS!!!!
Mike1975 wrote: Example - Zentraedi battle pod, at my last count had 12 pieces including the base, which I managed to assemble 3 of them in under 15 minutes.
Its a wonderful plastic and takes glues very well.
The Valkyrie fighter is 6 parts, and add on missiles to your own flavor...
The Battloid, depending on build between 12-15 pieces (as some heads and arms are in multiple parts)
I really hope you enjoy them as much as we are in getting ready to launch.
Gotta be concerned they apparently can't count.
Zentradi BattlePod is 14 pieces, including the base (Torso front, torso back, two piece hip assembly, two legs, two feet, four front cannons, a single paired top cannon, and the base).
As Kendachi pointed out on the Update comments, the Valkyrie fighter as shown is 9, prior to adding missiles, not including the base or flight stand, and that includes the single piece fuselage, which if accurate, again calls into question the clusterfeth that is the Spartan
And the 12-15 on the battleoid indicates that some of those parts are definitely pre-glued. Becaue those are 8, + base and optional flight stand.
I'm counting at least 8 pieces on two arms, how they heck is that going to be 12 pieces for a complete model?
Battleoid: Each forearm is made of two pieces, then you have an upper arm and hand. (That's assuming that the upper arm also isn't split).
The legs that were previously shown on the veritechs were in half, so that's another 4 pieces assuming the upper and lower leg aren't separate. Right there that's 12+ pieces not including the torso, wing or head pieces.
A standard Zentreadi pod has 4 face lasers, one more piece for the rear lasers. Two hull halves, hips that were shown as two pieces, two legs, two feet, two thrusters (assuming the thrusters are single pieces) 15+ pieces
So I hear there's this other mecha based game from KS that has actual parts counts in the 10-12 component range....
Just to throw a point in for consideration: fixating on part count is giving them an out. There are plenty of games who include just as many parts in things of similar size. For example, I was building a 15mm half-track yesterday that as a basic build composed of 18 parts for a 2" long model (which standing vertical is about a half-inch taller[?] than an RTT mini). It honestly was not that bad, and the model looks very nice. The same vehicle from another manufacturer had a parts count of 13, and was similar fun to assemble (though will be more annoying to paint due to some assemblies). Similarly, a group of Panzer IVs clocked in a 16 parts for a basic build. Looking at some Panther tanks, each tank has 30 parts looking at the directions. Keep in mind, these are designed for gaming and not as display models.
The big differences are:
1) I don't need too many models to play the game (8 Panthers would be an entire 1500 point list on their own). In Robotech, that possibly wouldn't even be one unit from what I've gleaned from this thread. However, model count is an outgrowth of rules, not a trait of the model themselves. Blame PB for writing rules that are requiring a high model count which is making a high parts count annoying (Forar's earlier ranting about a lack of focus on solid skirmish rules springs to mind here; boy would small scale engagements help). Especially in the case of Valkyries if the rules actually require WYSIWYG on the form instead of allowing tokens if a Valkyrie changes then that's incredibly stupid, bearing in mind that I don't know if anyone has seen the rules as regards that. I suspect if such an option isn't in the rules, that will be a common house-rule.
2) The design of the kits is great. There are no seams visible that aren't on the real-life vehicles. They look like they're supposed to and they're fun to move around making tank noises because they're awesome (disclaimer: my bias for WW2 history might be showing here). I'm pretty sure I don't need to beat the seam horse any harder...or the bloody crater where the body of the seam horse was anyway.
So, hammer them for the bad designs with daft part splits and rulesets that require a huge time investment to build the models required, but it seems like parts count is an area that they can actually legitimately point to and say "our part counts aren't outrageous" and actually be within shouting distance of the truth. Not really siding with PB per se, it was just a thought that crossed my mind after I finished playing with my toy soldiers last night that I put a hell of a lot of parts together, but it was all great fun and I can't wait to do more.
I'm reasonably sure that wouldn't be the case here...
Krinsath wrote: 2) The design of the kits is great. There are no seams visible that aren't on the real-life vehicles. They look like they're supposed to and they're fun to move around making tank noises because they're awesome (disclaimer: my bias for WW2 history might be showing here). I'm pretty sure I don't need to beat the seam horse any harder...or the bloody crater where the body of the seam horse was anyway.
Clearly the Wehrmacht designed their tanks with 3d modelling and sprue making foremost on their mind. The creators of the Macross mecha didn't have that luxury so Palladium and Ninja Division had to go with the seams to keep the designs accurate. It's not fair to compare the two. /sarcasm.
The Germans are known for being ridiculously efficient, perhaps they did indeed foresee the need to make toy soldiers in the future! YOU CAN'T PROVE THEY DIDN'T!
paulson games wrote: I'm counting at least 8 pieces on two arms, how they heck is that going to be 12 pieces for a complete model?
Battleoid: Each forearm is made of two pieces, then you have an upper arm and hand. (That's assuming that the upper arm also isn't split).
The legs that were previously shown on the veritechs were in half, so that's another 4 pieces assuming the upper and lower leg aren't separate. Right there that's 12+ pieces not including the torso, wing or head pieces.
A standard Zentreadi pod has 4 face lasers, one more piece for the rear lasers. Two hull halves, hips that were shown as two pieces, two legs, two feet, two thrusters (assuming the thrusters are single pieces) 15+ pieces
Yeah, I forgot the two thrusters in my count. And they're single piece, according to the sprue we've seen.
So, including base, it's 16. They were only off by a third. Counting is hard.
And I'm curious if the "15 minutes to assemble 3" also includes de-spruing, or if it was done with all the components cut off the sprue first. Cause there's 39 connections per Regult (assuming bases have none), that will need to be snipped carefully, or cleaned with a knife. So that's 117 cuts, then gluing together of 52 points (14 per) then mounting to the base. Thankfully this model really only has two points of direct alignment, squaring the two torso pieces, and squaring the two hip pieces (some of the others with split limbs look to have substantially more). Cause 15 minutes looks a little light in the numbers to me. And they've already shown they can't count.
GAAK....every time i see the models it gets worse! It would be less painful if i knew they would go together as well as the WW2 company Krinsath mentioned above models go together
Damn it Rob Ford you left with my crack pipe again.....I need it to smoke whatever PB is smoking to see those as mouth watering
Egads! Yeah I have to agree, they look like cheap gak. The detail on the gun hand in Gerwalk mode looks gorpy.
They really do look like cheap vending machine toys.
I wonder what Kevin means by mouth watering? Maybe he has really low standards for hotness? Or maybe he's one of those people who think cheap hot dogs with Dijon mustard qualifies for awesome, exotic food? Maybe he's a full time drooling Pavlovian?
The mini's do have about the level of detail you find on one of those animal shape or Spongebob Cheezit Crackers or character shaped macaroni and cheese noodles.
I was planning on picking up a few Valk or Pod mini's just to have. Eh, not any more.
Looking closely at the big gaps on these models too. Like toothpick thick grooves. How do you sand and fill gaps on mini's so teenie!?
Cripes!
I have a dream title for an online review of the future:
"Palladium serves up a 'mouth watering' $**t sandwich."
The limbs are horrifically bad on the Valkyrie, but the detail on the overall kit seams (/rimshot) like it might not be awful (the white material makes it difficult to be certain). Too much effort to clean up, sure, but less "terrible model" and more "terrible engineering." I'm reminded of the DFG and KD:M KS where they've talked about working with WGF because they weren't happy with how things were laid out initially because "what was designed" and "what can be made" don't often line up. Could this truly be an example of what happens when you send the design to China and the engineers saying "it will work like this" and PB going "Ok"? It seems like it to me, but obviously the world may never know.
The wings do look chunky, but quickly skimming some Robotech images on Google it could actually be that the source material has them as planks; I didn't remember them being that way and being more a straight lift of the F-14 (which tapers more at the wingtip), but evidently that could be remaining true to the original design.
Spent about the same as resolving a turn from their rpg. ta-boom-tish
Good lord that was terrible, I was actually interested in watching if for the rules but only made if through about 40 minutes before I got tired of random talking and crotch shots of the players. I checked back later at about an hour and half and it looked like they were still just setting up. No way I'm going to try and watch that again. Not a good way to present the system, even battletech at it's slowest plays much, much faster.
Stanman they didn't know the rules. Although I could have done without the crotch shoots as well. I could have also done without the spare tire shoots too.
Overall it was interesting to watch. At least they answered some of our questions.
Well I remember taking just as long to learn the basics of Battletech and that was with two players. So while it did take a long time, they also started the video an hour before they planned to start the game. Also once you understand the basics and how the game flows it goes much faster. All of them were trying to figure out as they went, including Tom. I even learned something. I hope to run one with a local person if I can get him an NDA so that we can play a few games out and then show haw fast the game can flow. I believe that its faster than even Alpha Strike.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And I promise, no crotch shots
Bob the Accountant wrote: Anyone have Palladium's email address? I have the sudden urge to spam them for months on end requesting a refund.
The 1980's doesn't have email yet.
You'll have to make due with regular old phone calls, preferably from something the size of a briefcase and emits cancer causing radiation. Fortunately you can wear a members only jacket and look cool while doing so.
Bob the Accountant wrote: Anyone have Palladium's email address? I have the sudden urge to spam them for months on end requesting a refund.
The 1980's doesn't have email yet.
You'll have to make due with regular old phone calls, preferably from something the size of a briefcase and emits cancer causing radiation. Fortunately you can wear a members only jacket and look cool while doing so.
There may be a small chance that you could contact PB via email. Back then the CIA used to use email to pass along information. Any chance PB is a front for the CIA? If so there's a small chance of contacting them.
Can anyone work out what is going on with the forward side edges of those wings? Instead of a small radius curve like the animation (or an F-14) we have what look like wingtip mounted landing lights?
Really gives the wing a blockish look even in a plan view where we can't see the blunt wing edges.
I'm also wondering if the stubby look is coming from incorrectly keeping the various parts' proportions between the modes. Think Jetfire vs a Hasegawa single mode kit. Jetfire (or the transforming Bandai kits) has to find somewhere for the arms to go and has to fit in the legs (which the animators did not) which leads to some compromised proportions.
If that's not it, I'm not sure what the sculptor was looking at.
As for people noting that they look like bubble gum toys - seriously, the Gashapon I picked up in Japan last year for dollars a piece look *much* better.
Nari224 wrote: As for people noting that they look like bubble gum toys - seriously, the Gashapon I picked up in Japan last year for dollars a piece look *much* better.
That is how I'm consoling myself regarding this whole project. My only macross minis to date are some old plastics and metals from the battletech days (see my sig trade thread link) and I see this as (unforunately) getting 1980's quality models for less than $2 a piece. I guess I could have hunted down the individual 1/200 kits like Paulson did but I'll end up with largely the same thing after a few years.
warboss wrote: So did anyone watch the apparently 6 hour long demo? If so, any highlights you'd care to share?
It went fairly well. They turned on the camera about an hour early and showed them setting up the table and some pages of the book. They also answered a few questions. They also took a while to get going. They also were getting used to the rules as they went so it took 3 or 4 times as long as it would otherwise. They had a lot of fun though and the Zentraedi won in the end.
Sorry to say this guys but were stuck with the lackluster vf-1 mini model. This is from Kevin S.
"You and us both, Ian. If we could have gotten this done sooner we would have. As for the 98% that was in reference to having the rules, art, and 3D modeling done. Had no idea it would take soooo long to go from there to manufacturing. It has been a big learning curve for all of us. I have to disagree Fern, the Valkyries look great. --Kevin Siembieda"
warboss wrote: So did anyone watch the apparently 6 hour long demo? If so, any highlights you'd care to share?
It went fairly well. They turned on the camera about an hour early and showed them setting up the table and some pages of the book. They also answered a few questions. They also took a while to get going. They also were getting used to the rules as they went so it took 3 or 4 times as long as it would otherwise. They had a lot of fun though and the Zentraedi won in the end.
You say it went well, I say it was a stumbling, bumbling example of a person who was trying to show off a game they had never read the rules before let alone played.
warboss wrote: So did anyone watch the apparently 6 hour long demo? If so, any highlights you'd care to share?
It went fairly well. They turned on the camera about an hour early and showed them setting up the table and some pages of the book. They also answered a few questions. They also took a while to get going. They also were getting used to the rules as they went so it took 3 or 4 times as long as it would otherwise. They had a lot of fun though and the Zentraedi won in the end.
You say it went well, I say it was a stumbling, bumbling example of a person who was trying to show off a game they had never read the rules before let alone played.
YMMV
This is in regards to Red Duke who is supposedly leading 40-50 playtesters?
warboss wrote: Any rules changes that surprised you? Was there massed zentraedi kungfu spam this time around?
No Kungfu fighting, and the UEDF got slaughtered because they fly the Veritech into the middle of the Zentraedi. A few small changes, the change to boosting speed make much more sense than it did before if I heard it right. They spent a lot of time teaching themselves the rules. I'm hoping to get an updated copy. I keep asking.
warboss wrote: So did anyone watch the apparently 6 hour long demo? If so, any highlights you'd care to share?
It went fairly well. They turned on the camera about an hour early and showed them setting up the table and some pages of the book. They also answered a few questions. They also took a while to get going. They also were getting used to the rules as they went so it took 3 or 4 times as long as it would otherwise. They had a lot of fun though and the Zentraedi won in the end.
You say it went well, I say it was a stumbling, bumbling example of a person who was trying to show off a game they had never read the rules before let alone played.
YMMV
This is in regards to Red Duke who is supposedly leading 40-50 playtesters?
Leading and Organizing are not the same thing. Just ask Obama. From what I understand Tom had set up numerous playtest groups to play with the rules but it's probably been over a year since he's played and I'm not sure how much the rules had changed from those early iterations. So not really a big surprise. They were all more or less learning or relearning as things went.
Leading and Organizing are not the same thing. Just ask Obama. From what I understand Tom had set up numerous playtest groups to play with the rules but it's probably been over a year since he's played and I'm not sure how much the rules had changed from those early iterations. So not really a big surprise. They were all more or less learning or relearning as things went.
That is odd. You would think the highest profile playtester would have a bit more familiarity with the rules he is championing in the comments. At the bare minimum, I'd at least expect him to brush up on them the days before live streamed demo. Unfortunately, he seems to have picked up some bad habits from his superiors at Palladium. I'll try and see what from the demo I can watch as I tried it in various youtube apps and the video wouldn't play correctly.
Hopefully Miriya made the rest of Quadrano squadron proud at least during the game!
Cypher-xv wrote: Sorry to say this guys but were stuck with the lackluster vf-1 mini model. This is from Kevin S.
"You and us both, Ian. If we could have gotten this done sooner we would have. As for the 98% that was in reference to having the rules, art, and 3D modeling done. Had no idea it would take soooo long to go from there to manufacturing. It has been a big learning curve for all of us. I have to disagree Fern, the Valkyries look great. --Kevin Siembieda"
Maybe we should go UP the ladder. Perhaps Harmony Gold didn't notice the plank wings, etc. Shrug.
KK - put them on a clean surface so you guys can see the seams and lines etc. They are not touched up much, I pretty much just daubed glue on 'em and stuck em together without much ceremony (which I will have to get used to when the 60+ pods I ordered get here)
note- the hips are two pieces, we are confident that most seams on armor will be treated this way - and anything in the test-shot phases that do not pass muster will get tightened up.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Quel-Gulnau sprue - part of the Glaug command kit - and as always, tools of the trade. Please note, the base is a test-shot in a different plastic color, and the final will be in black plastic.
Harley WarWolf
Morning Ninjas... On some of the Robotech minis it looks like some of the parts were misaligned. Small seams will be fixable but misaligned parts will not. Can we get a guarantee that the final product will not have any of these alignment issues. Thank you in advance.
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Ninja Division We are dealing with a host of final minor tweaks on the remaining models - I wish we were showing plastics for the first photography, and not prototypes - which, by definition, are rough copies to try and finalize and adjust the models to be as perfect and fitting as able.
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Harley WarWolf How can we be certain of how the minis will ultimately fit until the factory does a test run, if these are adjusted from 3d printed prototypes. I'm ignorant on this process but I thought the factories did a test run on the figures then adjustments made. So I guess my question really is if you receive some test sprues from The factory using the same process that will be used when their mass produced and they show such imperfections will they get fixed before going into production?
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Ninja Division they do - its a weird medium - as the 3D printing is a true to volume process - there is warping and shrinkage to account for once they become sprues and cut into molds - at that stage they necessarily have to go back and tinker and hammer on things -
The big trick we learned, and the reason why we had so many parts split up, was there is some pinching and deformation when plastic is too chunky and fat on a sprue, has to be run at different pressures to fill appropriately, and our mecha are cursed with really really small bits, and some chunky fat bits - which puts more stress on the mold if not taken into consideration properly.
But we are taking all the precautions we know how to see that they are being made correctly.
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fruitlewps wrote: These pics actually raise my hopes up. They look good compared to the rest of what we have seen.
To be fair, the Zentradi stuff never really got much abuse, the Gnerl excepted.
And I'd be concerned over the narrowness on the Recovery Pod's arms. I know that's not a joint (it's got the much wider collar at the body), and I know the plastic's supposed to be relatively strong, but it really doesn't look like it'd take much to snap that, especially with the size of the forearms attached. And if it does snap, it's going to be a significant PITA to re-attach.
I'm surprised at the squinty look of the Regults. But looking at the images, they're accurate. I always thought they were HAL-like (dark lens with a bright light), but it turns out that it was just the 'eyelids' painted black. Heh. Still too fiddly for me. Curious what they'd be like without the front mounted lasers, and use the holes as recessed gun mounts. Be four less pieces to glue in, and four less pieces to snap off.
Dear ninjas, why did you guys partially assemble these figures? It misled a lot of people into thinking the Valkyrie's aren't in that many parts but there are seams on the arms which means they've already been assembled. These are very deceptive practices http://palladiumbooks.com/cuttingroom/Official/Robotech-RPG-Tactics/Valkyrie-proto.jpg Like ·
Ninja Division Hi Sining,
We do not participate in deceptive practices... we are ninjas after all! But seriously, the early photographs of the miniatures you are seeing are production/prototypes of the miniatures before they go into tooling.
Miniatures are highly detailed, and will require assembly, and necessarily be assembled from parts depending on the complexity of the miniature, some of which required by our striving to maintain a high fidelity to the original concepts and artwork - but also, something not out the realm of expectation and ability of new and veteran hobbyists.
Example - Zentraedi battle pod, at my last count had 12 pieces including the base, which I managed to assemble 3 of them in under 15 minutes.
Its a wonderful plastic and takes glues very well.
The Valkyrie fighter is 6 parts, and add on missiles to your own flavor...
The Battloid, depending on build between 12-15 pieces (as some heads and arms are in multiple parts)
I really hope you enjoy them as much as we are in getting ready to launch.
May 15 at 3:56pm · Like
Harley WarWolf If we had more pictures of these models assembled it would help the tension that is building on the kickstarter site. The only assembled model we saw was a poorly assembled destroid that started a firestorm. I was curious why your site has sections for everything but robotech. Thanks in advance
May 15 at 11:13pm · Like
Michael Arnold Ninjas, what type of glue do you recommend? Super, Gorilla, etc..
May 15 at 11:23pm · Like
Brett Smith I had been wondering the same thing, Mike. I'd be interested to know if the Ninjas recommend a specific type of glue for the ABS models...
May 15 at 11:50pm · Like
Peter Ceretti Not trying to stir the pot but "The Valkyrie fighter is 6 parts, and add on missiles to your own flavor... " made me wonder. Looking at this picture http://palladiumbooks.com/.../VF-1A-Fighter-parts... we have 2 wings, 2 legs each 2 pieces, upper fuselage, lower fuselage, 2 vertical stabilizers, 2 pieces for the head. That is a total of 12 pieces not counting the gun and missiles. Is the term "parts" being used to refer to the whole parts? Legs, wings, body, head, gun, and tail?
May 16 at 8:46am · Edited · Like
Ninja Division hey there - this is ninja John - its my job here at Ninja Division to direct the manufacturing and creation of all the miniatures that you will soon be enjoying. We have to make a lot of hard decisions about the miniatures to ensure that we meet the high standards of our partners and the expectations of our customers -
As for glue - I have experimented with both bonding agents like plastic glues (testors, and architectural brush on glue-- works like a charm) and super glue and/or locktite - they are both perfect for assembly - you want something with a control tip to prevent extra glue from spoiling your pretty figures.
I am working with the engineering team in China as we speak, concerning final parting lines on some of the more egregious examples - some can be mitigated, and part count reduced... some by dint of the details, armor lines, and other required details.. cannot.
As an avid hobbyist, I spent time assembling a few recent miniatures kits from a well known company, and am confident that our part count is appropriate for the detail and east of assembly, and we are working to make it easier as best we can.
May 16 at 3:26pm · Like · 1
Ninja Division Here are examples of actual assembled and primed miniatures from the Glaug Command frame - the Regult Scout Pod, and the Glaug Command Pod - miniature assembly time - 15 minutes for both together - The Glaug's components include: Right and Left leg, each in two parts, two feet, two halves to the main torso, two thruster pods, the main cannon - Right and Left arms with 3 parts each - halves, and then a cap for the end of the main cannons. two whisker lasers, hip segment, eye piece, and an antennae - for a grand total of 22 parts. Assembly is quick, logical, and really nice looking.
The Scout pod included two legs, two feet, front and back to the main cockpit, sensor vane and stand, antannea array, thrusters x2, vane antannae x2, hip section, and 3x sensors for the front of the cockpit for 18 pieces.
Ninja Division's photo.
May 16 at 3:45pm · Like · 6
Brett Smith Thank you so much for dropping in and sharing the info with us NJ. Very much appreciated!
May 16 at 4:12pm · Like
Richard Steinberg Jr. ND did they fix the joining pin on the one arm assembly of the Recovery pod?
May 16 at 5:23pm · Like
Harley WarWolf Thank you for the picture and the quick response John.
May 16 at 5:32pm · Like
Harley WarWolf Could we please have photos of the front and rear of those models. What we wanted to see was how noticeable the seam lines were and how well the figures fit together, thank you.
May 16 at 5:50pm · Like
Ninja Division Here is a front shot - as my fellow ninja can attest, I am the worst at cleaning my models - Ill get some more shots in a bit.
Ninja Division's photo.
May 16 at 6:05pm · Like · 7
Harley WarWolf Thank you for the rapid quick response. This type of communication with the backers is what will restore the positivity among those who feel ignored. Looking forward to the future pics.
May 16 at 6:12pm · Like
Peter T. Pidrak Thank you. It is wonderful to see some communication on this issue and quick responses.
May 16 at 6:31pm · Like
Thomas Roache as for glue, please do not use gorilla - it expands!
May 16 at 7:04pm · Unlike · 2
Peter T. Pidrak I will probably wind up doing some tests with the sprue material and testors to see how it works.
May 16 at 7:06pm · Like
Jim Odebralski Wow. Thats nice! Small seems. Barely notice them. I am stoked!!!!!!!
May 16 at 7:55pm · Like
Harley WarWolf Keep in mind they are primed so ideally you will want to fix the seams before priming or they will really show up on your paint job.
May 16 at 10:01pm · Like
Harley WarWolf Still with the fixes in work I believe these will be wonderful minis.
May 16 at 10:05pm · Like
Harley WarWolf These pics are getting me excited for the game again and I noticedfrom another FB that they have attracted a few people who were not aware of the project before.
May 16 at 10:36pm · Like
Ninja Division You are right Sining, after making a careful count, and a few pieces stuck together in the bag - it is 10 pieces including the flight stand - perhaps 11 if you choose a multi-part head - of which the VF1A is not one.
Yesterday at 1:19am · Like · 1
Dick Teh Sweet models
Yesterday at 6:31am · Like
Ninja Division We are here to address concerns, answer questions, and engage in constructive dialogue - we will try and do our best, and do not want to rise to the kind of baiting that goes on in forums like this.
Trolling is not constructive conversation.
Yesterday at 6:23pm · Unlike · 3
Sining Ong should we be worried your part counts for the other models are off by the same factor as well? ie. 10 compared to 6, which is about 1.67x more parts
22 hours ago · Like
Brett Smith Way to try and stay productive and professional dude.
19 hours ago · Like
Ninja Division Ninjas are strong proponents of math.
19 hours ago · Like · 2
Harley WarWolf On to a real question, or request could you please assemble a veritech for us and take a few pictures of it from different angles. I would like to see how wide the seams are on the arms and legs. Didn't look to good on the one assembled and displayed ...See More
19 hours ago · Like · 1
Harley WarWolf Unprimed though please
19 hours ago · Like
Ninja Division Hi Harley, the ones shown we 3d prototypes, and are a little delicate. Once tooled, we will have full images and video with real physical product.
19 hours ago · Like · 2
Harley WarWolf That is great news thanks again.
19 hours ago · Like
Harley WarWolf A few more questions, will you be doing any painting guides once you start getting the final product. I'd also like to know what colours I should use for the more popular line of paints. I'm a big vallejo fan so would love to know what colours from that line would be best. As well as what you think the best primer colour to use on them would be.
19 hours ago · Like
Ninja Division There is a paint guide in the rule book for the popular schemes, with a hexadecimal color key for each model. Primer colors depend on what you are painting, but with all those lovely ruddy Browns in the UEDF, check army painters excellent color ma...See More
18 hours ago · Like · 1
Harley WarWolf I just found a nice hex to vallejo colour
guide, I'll share this with my group! Do you have any painted at the ninja dojo that you could show us pics of? Here is link to the guide I found if your interested. http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/Tyler/VallejoColors.pdf 18 hours ago · Like · 1
Brett Smith Ninjas burning the midnight oil.
18 hours ago · Like
Brett Smith How so? Don't be coy.
17 hours ago · Like
Brett Smith I don't think that they were ever out of the game. We asked questions here and they answered pretty promptly. They haven't been on the KS comments section but they weren't exactly hiding either and I don't think that there is any conspiracy or rift b...See More
15 hours ago · Like
John Liller Anders Agdahl Dä Maybe not avoiding questions but actually working? They have Robotech AND their own Super Dungeon Explore project that they are working on plus maybe other projects. Methinks thou art listening too much to trolls and getting thy pantaloons atwist?
12 hours ago · Like
Ninja Division Good morning everyone -
While I appreciate speculation in all of its guises, I don't feel that this is a healthy road to follow for anyone, but I see this as a teaching moment, as for all the speculation and assembly of the controlled information we h...See More
8 hrs · Like · 2
Richard Chalcraft I do wish that there was not so many people assuming in this process. I assumed that the facts presented in the kickstarter were true, like 98% ready and that we would have this before Christmas last year or before. And I sure feel I was made an ass of...See More
7 hrs · Like
Ninja Division Rich - our claim to being 98% ready was not hollow or misleading - we encountered a HUGE manufacturing and engineering problem after all our sculpting was ready to go - and we have since worked through and are checking our work with our team in China....See More
6 hrs · Like · 2
Ninja Division continued...
6 hrs · Like · 1
Ninja Division Super Valks will need a once over after we finish wave 1 - I was worried about the super packs fitting right on all three modes - but we are super close
The Experimental Valkyrie is done and ready to go
The MAC II Monster needs a little tinker to the b...See More
6 hrs · Like · 3
Richard Chalcraft So can you share what that huge problem was? Prodos, a very small team that had a kickstarter for Warzone with 54 different items (some with 5 different sculpts on the sprue) had a flood at their rulebook printers. Not sure that 11ish sprues is something that takes this long?
6 hrs · Like · 1
Richard Chalcraft I do of course appreciate your trying to be open but I'm just not feeling this project and just want it over and done with. Still no idea when it will be in the UK.
6 hrs · Like
Ninja Division nothing so drastic as a flood - but there were a few significant translation errors in the initial process of delivery of the 3D files - which did not gel with the plastics machines and software the factory was used to. And, with out attention to deta...See More
5 hrs · Like · 3
Richard Chalcraft I've heard of the problems with leaking images from 3d to actual models before and understand the process. But a year, really!! Also would have been better to have come clean and been honest from the off!
Both Prodos products are IP products, they had...See More
5 hrs · Like
Ninja Division I'm sorry you feel that way Anders. We will not tolerate accusations of disregard or disrespect to customers and friends we care very much for.
5 hrs · Like · 3
Brett Smith Ninjas, thanks again for your openness and details. I can't help but feel that if this level of communication had carried on throughout the last year that a large portion of the heartache that some have could have been avoided. Keep up the good work! Looking forward to the rest of the project!
4 hrs · Like · 1
Ninja Division Agreed Brett,
Thank you for the kind words. And we will always try and answer concerns here.
4 hrs · Like · 1
Richard Chalcraft So about the timescales/ lead times then?
4 hrs · Like
Ninja Division Pending approval of final changes to the Valk and Spartan as discussed earlier, that will start the countdown clock and then we can have a confirmation from the factory when to expect delivery - and the will then go out via the Kickstarter Page to the backers first, and we will mirror that info here - and that will include timetables for product delivery to all regions, for all backers.
4 hrs · Like · 1
Richard Chalcraft Well I look forward to getting the email via kickstarter. If possible could you let us UK backers know who you are using to send out the loot and I do hope we get the product before its available anywhere else as promised
4 hrs · Like
Richard Chalcraft Cheers again for getting back to being communicative. As others have said, as have I, if the communication ball had not been dropped then maybe some (I doubt all) of the negativity would have been avoided
4 hrs · Like
Farting Cow Ninja Division, what was your reaction to Kevin's announcement of possible early shipping given the problems you've mentioned above? Was he completely unaware and should we take all correspondence from him o be inaccurate at best?
4 hrs · Like
Farting Cow I'll just add to that, if the process and problems had been communicated, like with many other kickstarters, the majority of backers are fine. In this case there were obvious issues, but we kept getting updates saying everything is awesome from Palladium. Is it any wonder people demanded answers? I hope for the rest of the process we get NDs professional approach, and no more Kevin S.
4 hrs · Like
Ninja Division From my secret ninja command center - we will try to keep you all abreast of developments as they come clear.
And ALWAYS try to address questions to us throughout the process for clarity's sake.
3 hrs · Like · 1
Jorel Levenson Thanks for taking the time to answer those questions...very informative.
This has been the crux of the drama, silence and misinformation coming from Palladium has really soured things with their backers. It sucks to be the bearer of bad news but if they'd just manned up and informed their backers when the file issues were happening people would have been much more understanding. Instead they keep saying everything is great and we're 98% done when in reality it sounds like they basically had to scrap everything and do a hard reset.
I really wish that ND would have been given free reign to cover the post KS communication, be it Robotech of their other RPG projects PB is just terrible at communication and giving tangible information.
paulson games wrote: This has been the crux of the drama, silence and misinformation coming from Palladium has really soured things with their backers. It sucks to be the bearer of bad news but if they'd just manned up and informed their backers when the file issues were happening people would have been much more understanding. Instead they keep saying everything is great and we're 98% done when in reality it sounds like they basically had to scrap everything and do a hard reset.
I really wish that ND would have been given free reign to cover the post KS communication, be it Robotech of their other RPG projects PB is just terrible at communication and giving tangible information.
I don't think ND handling post-KS communication is a good fix either going by Relic Knights. They bungled that one at roughly the same step according to my admittedly biased source and the communication about it was horrible with the delay of 6 months being announced around a month prior to the scheduled delivery IIRC. Subsequent delays were announced almost as delinquently and the KS still hasn't delivered despite being over a year late (although that light is actually at the end of the particular tunnel unlike this project).
I don't think ND handling post-KS communication is a good fix either going by Relic Knights. They bungled that one at roughly the same step according to my admittedly biased source and the communication about it was horrible with the delay of 6 months being announced around a month prior to the scheduled delivery IIRC. Subsequent delays were announced almost as delinquently and the KS still hasn't delivered despite being over a year late (although that light is actually at the end of the particular tunnel unlike this project).
Some of the issues there were (and continue to be) CMoN; ND couldn't actually post updates and had to send them to CMoN to be posted which reportedly introduced significant delays. According to the RK thread. there was a recent update sent to CMoN that wasn't posted to the backers for over a week.
A better gauge would be their own SDEKS which hasn't really done anything yet, but the communication has been pretty steady and thorough in sharp contrast to the comms on this one.
Has anyone found a polite way to ask ND why NMI was trolling their Facebook? Especially as everything was so rosey between both companies the whole time.
How would that make any practical difference? NMI is a hypocrit plain and simple and there is likely much drama behind the scenes that we won't ever get to know about. I also think that Ninja Division is "spinning" this almost as much as Palladium has done in the past but at least they're finally giving us real information instead of just copy pasting Palladium's weeks after the fact so I'm not complaining.
Joyboozer wrote: Has anyone found a polite way to ask ND why NMI was trolling their Facebook? Especially as everything was so rosey between both companies the whole time.
The same day it happened I sent some screen captures to PB and a few other notes and I think he had his short hairs pulled because he shut up on the ND site and backed off a lot on the FOTM site. There are very few people the gain my outright enmity but he has been one.
Given that we're now getting some feedback from ND on Facebook (for which I don't have an account) any chance anyone can ask these questions:
1. The Valkyrie prototypes we've seen have very blocky wings and bulbous protrusions on the leading edges where a curve can be seen in the animation and artwork. Is this an issue that is being addressed?
2. Why was it recommended that the color chart have RGB values which are only useful when painting with light and can't be used to generate a pigment mix as is needed for paints?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Sorry... Painting with emitted light...
Nari224 wrote: Given that we're now getting some feedback from ND on Facebook (for which I don't have an account) any chance anyone can ask these questions:
1. The Valkyrie prototypes we've seen have very blocky wings and bulbous protrusions on the leading edges where a curve can be seen in the animation and artwork. Is this an issue that is being addressed?
2. Why was it recommended that the color chart have RGB values which are only useful when painting with light and can't be used to generate a pigment mix as is needed for paints?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Sorry... Painting with emitted light...
I think both of those have been asked. I know the wings one was asked at least once already.
Regarding the use of the RGB numbers, they probably dodged a bullet by not listing particular colours from particular companies - everyone has their favourites.
They have said that links to converters to match up your favourite paints will and are available.
Seeing some of the Zentraedi stuff in plastic is nice. It makes me feel like there is a light at the end of the tunnel finally visible... even if it's only a single small LED at the moment.
The noses are a bit too sharply pointed and they also managed to leave off the nose lasers.
Are we looking at the same pictures? I see the sensors just fine. (thank you animation error for making them nose lasers for the rest of time)
Yeah, looking at the posted images and then after reading your comment I went looking, The noses don't seem less point than the average in the source material (Lord knows the animation is not always great for that). If there is a difference in how pointed they are compared to the model kits I've viewed on line I can't see it.
And I can see the nose lasers as well as the 4 raised bits behind them.
I can see the little bumps on the underside, but the scale and position seems wrong. They are larger and much higher up on the sides in most of the reference art and on the toys/models.
The underside of the nose also slopes up a bit, so it's slightly upturned it's not a full on cone shape.
paulson games wrote: I can see the little bumps on the underside, but the scale and position seems wrong.
Agreed. But also, the shadow on the bump is so faint, that it's difficult for me to make out exactly where it is. I think I'll need to wait and see a properly painted model before I come to any conclusions about this particular item.
wilycoyote wrote: Regarding the use of the RGB numbers, they probably dodged a bullet by not listing particular colours from particular companies - everyone has their favourites.
They have said that links to converters to match up your favourite paints will and are available.
I'm glad that they will be listing actual paints as RGB codes are actually useless for paints. It's a completely different mechanism for producing what we recognize as a color. If you take your RGB code down to the local home store to get a tin of (enamel unfortunately, acrylics are too thick) paint based on RGB codes you'll get a very blank look as they create color by mixing a bunch of pigments (that are not red, green and blue). And you won't see them listed by paint manufacturers as they also know that listing RGB colors will just lead to disappointed customers. And your mileage will vary greatly in using the various websites who try to reverse engineer RGB colours from the online color swatches the manufacturers (which often look wrong if you have a glance) release. Just look at the online Tamiya chart for example.
The reason is basically that the two different mediums are creating what we recognize as color (specific wavelengths) in completely different fashions. On your screen, RGB represents the combination of the three emitted wavelengths. In your paint (and your printer) light is being reflected by the base paint (or paper) and tinted by the pigments. That's why to get white with RGB you blast all three wavelengths at max and to get black your turn them all off. Compare this to pigments where you get black by mixing three appropriate colours and white is either a separate pigment ( some painting) or no pigment.
Automatically Appended Next Post: This is why, if you've ever attempted to match colors just on a screen, you've likely encountered much frustration.
paulson games wrote: I can see the little bumps on the underside, but the scale and position seems wrong. They are larger and much higher up on the sides in most of the reference art and on the toys/models.
The underside of the nose also slopes up a bit, so it's slightly upturned it's not a full on cone shape.
I looked over at my 1/48 Yamato VF-1J and compared it to my 1/60 Yamato VF-1S v2 and the nose bumps are in different places.
On the 1/48 they are directly across from each other near the bottom of the sides of the nose and the nose is very flat on the bottom.
On the 1/60 they are slightly angled and the nose is less flat on the bottom.
Even my $200+ official Macross Valkyrie toys can't get it right
edit: i just noticed the 1/48's entire nose/cockpit is maybe 10-20% longer than the 1/60. What the hell...
I suspect if you went in to the animation and measured it you'd find supposedly 'identical' stuff didn't quite match up either based on when/who drew it,
I'm considering selling one, I don't really need two. Also have the clear adjustable aftermarket/3rd party flight stands as well as Super/Strike packs for both, and original packaging...
Still prototypes though, and also he really just slapped those together and did as quick of a paint job as possible on that one. It looks good, could be better, still waiting on final product.
fruitlewps wrote: Still prototypes though, and also he really just slapped those together and did as quick of a paint job as possible on that one. It looks good, could be better, still waiting on final product.
Nope, not prototypes. Production test models. There is a big difference between the two concepts. The first and foremost? The tooling is already done, and unless PB tells them anything, it's how it's going to be (and retooling costs money, so, seeing how very cheap they've been in everything minis-wise...). I'd suggest to get comfortable with that one, because it's most probably the one you're going to get.
In case anyone is wondering, I asked for a refund, I only backed for some exclusive models and at this rate I figured I'll never see them. Anyways, here's the response I got:
We share your frustration and apologize for the unfortunate delay. Palladium Books has been working tirelessly to bring Robotech® fans a superior product. Progress is being made and we are moving toward manufacturing of the First Wave of releases.
Please understand, as a Kickstarter backer, you have not purchased or pre-ordered a product. You have “supported a project” in exchange for a promise of a reward. That reward had an original estimated delivery date which has passed, but that date was always an estimate, not a guaranteed deadline.
By Kickstarter’s terms of service, we are obligated to deliver on the rewards we have promised, and we will do that. We are currently working toward doing just that.
As such, we cannot offer you a refund at this time. If the time should ever come that Palladium Books cannot fulfill the terms of our Kickstarter project, we will of course offer refunds, as we would be required to do by Kickstarter.
In the meantime, please be patient. We appreciate your support of the project, and your pledge will help us to produce a fantastic product that we think everyone will enjoy.
With Appreciation,
The Palladium Books Team
So basically, as long as we claim we're still working on it, no one is getting a refund.
Henshini wrote: In case anyone is wondering, I asked for a refund, I only backed for some exclusive models and at this rate I figured I'll never see them. Anyways, here's the response I got:
We share your frustration and apologize for the unfortunate delay. Palladium Books has been working tirelessly to bring Robotech® fans a superior product. Progress is being made and we are moving toward manufacturing of the First Wave of releases.
Please understand, as a Kickstarter backer, you have not purchased or pre-ordered a product. You have “supported a project” in exchange for a promise of a reward. That reward had an original estimated delivery date which has passed, but that date was always an estimate, not a guaranteed deadline.
By Kickstarter’s terms of service, we are obligated to deliver on the rewards we have promised, and we will do that. We are currently working toward doing just that.
As such, we cannot offer you a refund at this time. If the time should ever come that Palladium Books cannot fulfill the terms of our Kickstarter project, we will of course offer refunds, as we would be required to do by Kickstarter.
In the meantime, please be patient. We appreciate your support of the project, and your pledge will help us to produce a fantastic product that we think everyone will enjoy.
With Appreciation,
The Palladium Books Team
So basically, as long as we claim we're still working on it, no one is getting a refund.
Well, its 100% true, Kickstarter terms clearly states it as well. 'Refunds' is a exception concept some projects offer, but by no means it was mandatory. I won't be expecting refunds anyways so late into the game when production is almost complete, meaning most of the funds are spent on the production.
And as slow as PB is with their kickstarter, they are still progressing along with updates to prove it.
As a counterpoint, some people have indeed gotten refunds in the last few months.
Yes, they claim to be on the verge of delivery, and yet we're already past another target/goal (production begun by mid/early May, it's the end of May and still no start). Wave One being mailed out in June is impossible, July is highly unlikely, and with Gencon, even August would take a minor miracle.
8-9 months delayed for ~1/2 delivery isn't exactly a remarkable pace, or an unreasonable thing to take issue with.
Edit: also, they asked for and received funding to create molds for 36 (at my count) figures.
Wave One consists of 12.
If they've run out of money making those 12, then the entire project is feth'd and we should start class action litigation now.
Forar wrote: As a counterpoint, some people have indeed gotten refunds in the last few months.
Yes, they claim to be on the verge of delivery, and yet we're already past another target/goal (production begun by mid/early May, it's the end of May and still no start). Wave One being mailed out in June is impossible, July is highly unlikely, and with Gencon, even August would take a minor miracle.
8-9 months delayed for ~1/2 delivery isn't exactly a remarkable pace, or an unreasonable thing to take issue with.
Edit: also, they asked for and received funding to create molds for 36 (at my count) figures.
Wave One consists of 12.
If they've run out of money making those 12, then the entire project is feth'd and we should start class action litigation now.
Did they go through their credit card company to get their money back?
Yes, I believe so. That or their bank. They wrote Palladium and told them what they were doing, got it back and Palladium basically said "whatever, we'll just give (presumably sell) your stuff to someone else".
Which, I suppose in hindsight isn't quite the same as a 'refund', but people have retrieved their funds and Palladium has indicated they aren't willing to fight/dispute it (which would probably be a losing proposition in terms of time/effort/manpower just to retain a couple hundred bucks here and there), but isn't a true refund from the company itself.
But the latter point definitely stands; if they're out of money with only 1/3 of the molds done, they're well beyond mere delays and 'oops, this is hard'.
I was going to ask a snarky question about the rulebook Mike, but I'll spare you.
July. Yeah, right. Production starting in 3 weeks (late June), 2 weeks of spitting sprues (mid July), a month on the boat (mid August), then they have to ship them.
Looks like they're going to have to airlift whatever they're going to want to have of hand for GenCon. Especially since I didn't even count customs time.
I think it's almost going to be near-impossible for PB to get them by July but then I realised this is PB and their estimated dates are pretty much worth nothing.
To be fair, they didn't actually say July this year.
Also, I would have preferred a spiral bound rule book vs perfect bound. Guess I'll just have to give it the same treatment I gave my Flames of War mini rulebooks.
Also, I would have preferred a spiral bound rule book vs perfect bound. Guess I'll just have to give it the same treatment I gave my Flames of War mini rulebooks.
Kevin said absolutely this year. And he should know, eh....
It is a tiny bit of progress so it's better than most of the second half of 2013 for the KS. There are some interesting comments about the mockup over on the KS in that they just photographed stuff we've seen in the past together to feign more progress. Sprues? We've seen it. Rulebook? Seen it at that demo. Dice? Ditto... etc. In the end, it still shows that the glacier is moving. Unfortunately, Palladium is inching the delivery date forward unrealistically yet again. Unless they air freight the stuff over, there is no way any significant portion of backers will get stuff in July which is the metric I care about. Palladium will be lucky to get anything over on a boat and through customs by gencon.
Once a week, take a look at "progress".
Backtrack to figure out what changed.
Identify progress as more "spin" than actual happenings.
Vaguely register the latest "target" date.
At some point curse PB, ND and Kevin.
Smile or laugh at similar backer comments/observations.
Wash, rinse, repeat.
Thanks all for at least making it worth checking on, it is great group therapy.
Pretty much.. but at least now both ND and PB are at least trying to show effort publicly. That wasn't the case for Palladium during the second half of 2013 and wasn't true for ND for almost a whole YEAR post KS.
warboss wrote: Pretty much.. but at least now both ND and PB are at least trying to show effort publicly. That wasn't the case for Palladium during the second half of 2013 and wasn't true for ND for almost a whole YEAR post KS.
Yeah, if only that public effort didn't appear to be so completely full of crap.
73 days to GenCon. Assume they have to strike work on the Tuesday (to pack and transport). That's unrealistic, but we'll go with it. So that's 71 days.
At least two more weeks until production can start. That's 57 days. And that's assuming the production company can start immediately (they'll likely want to finish the jobs already on the machine).
57 days to press 6000+ Battlecry's, and let's say a similar number of First Contacts for the first retail shipments (it's more, count on it). Get it through customs, then off the docks onto the ship. Ship it across an ocean, get it through customs, transport it to Michigan (at least another 2 days), check, collate, double check, and mail out 5300+ packages.
Yeah, unless they've found a way to completely skip a couple of steps (like air freighting), the timetable given at this stage is completely unrealistic. They already established from go on production, best case is 3+ months. (Production starts 45 days after KS ends, so early July, maybe start shipping out November, possibly October). Now, they expect us to buy less than two months? Yeahhhh.
So for those of us that haven't been following the thread in its entirety, can we get a high level update of where their timeline sits and where it was original supposed to sit?
Based on the past few pages, it looks like they may be cutting GenCon close for any product?
cincydooley wrote: So for those of us that haven't been following the thread in its entirety, can we get a high level update of where their timeline sits and where it was original supposed to sit?
Based on the past few pages, it looks like they may be cutting GenCon close for any product?
As I said in the post a couple up, the timeline is they say July to start receiving shipments. I say unlikely (backed up by research and logic). GenCon's a possibility for retail, even more so if they air-freight stock. But I can't see how they can ship to more than a tiny fraction of backers (if any) before then, and there's currently an argument as to whether PB are breaking a promise (cause they've always been so honest and forthright) by selling at GenCon or even on their own webstore, before shipping to backers.
They'll do the typical KS-BS move of starting to ship a dozen or so packages the day before (Event) - in this case GenCon so they can claim that they "started shipping before GenCon, but so many orders, distance, postal service, out of our control, we thank you for your patience, blurf blurf".
Let's pretend we're further along than we apparently are (Production should begin in 45 days!).
Let's pretend bad news is good news (Good news everybody! You're only getting a third of what you backed in twice the time!)
Let's pretend it'll be on time when it's just completely unrealistic (for the fourth time, Dec, Feb, June, July).
Let's pretend it'll be quality miniatures (rather than 20+ year old tech).
Let's pretend it'll have a solid rules set (and it may, but excepting Mike and WRRD, most of us aren't allowed to see it).
Let's pretend they'll communicate with the backers (posting updates =/= communicating).
Let's pretend it'll be handled competently by professionals.
Everything since the Kickstarter ended has pretty much been "let's pretend".
Anyone here wanting to sell their pledge let me know @Mike_Arnold_1975@hotmail.com. Tell me what you have and what you want for it. There have been quite a few interested on the Facebook page.
Joyboozer wrote: To be fair, they are a role playing company, it's all pretending.
That explains a lot about Mechanoid Space which has been on pre-order for over 20 years by this point (I am actually shocked it is still on the page after all this time).
rigeld2 wrote: I'm betting they fly some boxes over for GenCon and Wave 1 delivers in October.
I'm standing by this estimate I made in March.
Production in June, shipping across the ocean in July, August eaten up by leftover time for both and Gencon, actual shipping to backers in September, boxes arriving by October.
... yeah, sounding about right at this point. But hey, only ~22 months to go from project start to delivery of 1/3 the models and roughly 2/3 of the figures found in a Battle Cry.
Sounds about right.
Maybe someone should tell Palladium.
*jazz hands*
Though to be fair, they've been saying that RRT would deliver in the "Summer of 2014" for a while now.
Okay, got to see a "mock-up" of the box set - incomplete mind you.
Veritech's are on the mind since they are a primary reason for the game for many.
I am waiting to see where this footrace will go: opportunity to sell models to public happens or backers get them first as promised.
Think now is a good time to release some core rule information to help formulate an FAQ on release to limit any nerd rage.
I had a small panic attack when I reviewed the PB site and saw some of their "pre-order" lists and how long they have been up.
I am still trying to figure out how to continue bugging PB for results while pretending I have all the time in the world to receive them (or go bat crazy in the process).
I guess I will go out and see if I can start my "Tron Tactics Tabletop Game"(tm) or "T3G" for short.
<edit> Ah, yes, Disney has that license... more scary than Harmony Gold without the jail time.
Well, if you're attending Gencon, you can supposedly get them there in August!
If not, I'm sure there'll be plenty of resellers trying to double their money on Ebay. (feature, not a bug!)
And the game is due at retail a month after it goes out to backers, whenever that might be. July? HAH! August? Pft. September? Maybe. October? Now we're getting closer...
A relatively decent Update (bloody fantastic in comparison to the usual crap). Shows the unfixable problems with the Spartan weren't so unfixable. Still too many components, but not the utter horror show prototype they were saying were great. Though, ironically, they've restricted leg position in the same manner they have since corrected in shoulder position. Not that I mind, without posability at the knee, the running style looks lame.
Still wanting out (and am in the process of trying to sell the pledge), but if that falls through and I get stuck with receiving this order, it might not be as hard to shift on the secondary market without significant loss. Definitely not considering actually keeping it. Still too much anticipated clusterfethery from the people in charge. Especially with an apparent replacement policy for miscast/damaged/short-shot sprues of "we don't anticipate any problems so we don't need one", and a mail policy of "it was damaged in transit? Yeah, claim against the postal service, not our problem". And a promotional/tournamental/online presence that seems absent at best, hostile at worst. Soonest I can wash my hands of them, the better for both of us.
paulson games wrote: The parts break down does look better, but I find it weird how people are gushing over it saying it's "fixed" when it's just a drawing at this point.
I think proof of being "fixed" will be in seeing how things look on a print or in plastic, not line art.
Looks like an improvement but it's a little early to tell.
Yeah, making assumptions at this point in their track record is just asking for a kick in the nuts.
And with it being line art, and not even a digital sculpt, means it's still further off the production chain than it should be. "In fact, many items will begin manufacturing next week" sounds eerily familiar to "it should go to the printers next week", that I remember seeing for Northern Gun 1 for several months before it did, back when I gave a rats ass about PB in general. At least they can potentially get started on the Regults (the lengthiest run) but they better get a move on with approval of the Valkyries if they have any hope of receiving anything before GenCon. Which brings with it it's own potential for public relations clusterfethery.
Also, Jon, you have mail (both here and KS). Still waiting on an answer before I lock in my MechaFront Pledge.
Ye gods are aspects of this community frustrating.
"omg now can the complaining stop!?"
Look here, you little gaks. People speaking up about what they saw as a problem got that problem addressed. As others have noted, am I happy to have one out of the box pose for the legs? Meh, but I'm happier with this than I was with the last Spartan (at least at a glance, yes, a prototype and production run would be even better to allay those concerns), but without that outcry we'd still be getting "Spartangate Spartans: the Pieciests Spartaniest Spartan whoever Pieced or Spartan'd!"
Especially with an apparent replacement policy for miscast/damaged/short-shot sprues of "we don't anticipate any problems so we don't need one", and a mail policy of "it was damaged in transit? Yeah, claim against the postal service, not our problem".
Joyboozer wrote: To be fair, they are a role playing company, it's all pretending.
That explains a lot about Mechanoid Space which has been on pre-order for over 20 years by this point (I am actually shocked it is still on the page after all this time).
But hey, unlike Mechanoid Space, this may actually get released in less than 20 years!
Perhaps one bonus could come from this - if Palladium blows through all the money before delivering the product, maybe a class action suit will finally shutter Palladium and the rights can be bought from HG by a real company!
Especially with an apparent replacement policy for miscast/damaged/short-shot sprues of "we don't anticipate any problems so we don't need one", and a mail policy of "it was damaged in transit? Yeah, claim against the postal service, not our problem".
Kind of. It's an abbreviation of a couple statements they've made/situations.
Regarding replacement pieces;
I believe that's essentially the sentiment that was expressed at one point. When the matter was pushed in a second thread, this was the response from someone 'in the know';
WRRD wrote:I spoke with Kevin and Jeff over this item on Tuesday, The goal is to provide replacement pieces for miscasts, deformities etc.. There is a plan to provide customer service for this. there won't be a need to send them the miscast piece. A phone call will suffice. They have already handled this item a few times due to two or three of the Gencon metal minis missing a piece or having a miscast in the blister. Replacement pieces were sent immediately out.
This should be an official policy, not a comment from 'a random user' (in that you and I know he is more involved in the project, but he's a guy with 10 posts on their forum and zero official standing there).
Also, as others have noted, 'a phone call' is a ridiculous way to work these things out. A phone call must be done on their time frame, what about sections of the world where their business hours aren't terribly convenient? Long distance charges just to get a replacement GU-11 seems awfully excessive. With an email I can send a picture of the damaged part, meaning there should be zero issues expressing exactly what is wrong and needs replacing, and assuming I'm not an idiot, zero issues with transcription of my address and other pertinent info.
The latter issue (referring transit damage back to the post office) ties into a prolific forum poster and commenter "Jorel", who ordered a bunch of books from them during the sale, and found that a bunch of the corners were damaged in transit. When he complained to PB, apparently he was told:
"I'm very sorry to hear about this. Once the books are in the hands of the US Post Office, it is their responsibility to handle them with care. I recommend you take the books and package to your local Post Office and file a claim. We ship every day and that includes many Media Mail packages. I too order things from around the country and Europe from time to time, and like you, I've been fortunate most of the time. I've only gotten a handful of bent corner and slightly damaged books over the years.
According to him, when he spoke to the Post Office, they referred him back to the sender, so both of them are pointing at each other. I believe he said it was sent uninsured media mail, so the Post Office doesn't care and PB clearly isn't willing to send out another pile of books over damaged corners.
It's a facebook picture link, hopefully that comes through.
So......25 pieces is an improvement??? And they still can't count - the chest is two pieces - front and back - not one.....sigh
what a fething joke..... this makes papa a very sad panda ...... was sooo looking forward to this and by this point I just hope I can get some models that are somewhat usable :(
PapaSmurf wrote: So......25 pieces is an improvement??? And they still can't count - the chest is two pieces - front and back - not one.....sigh
what a fething joke..... this makes papa a very sad panda ...... was sooo looking forward to this and by this point I just hope I can get some models that are somewhat usable :(
No cheers this time
Papasmurf
It looks like you can get it down to 25 if you go with the minimal options - i.e. gunpod instead of mace, and closed missile bay doors.
One item that I find particularly puzzling is that the version of the missile bay that's designed to allow an open door is split in half, whereas the version with the door closed is one piece (aside from that weird bit at the back).
Eumerin wrote: It looks like you can get it down to 25 if you go with the minimal options - i.e. gunpod instead of mace, and closed missile bay doors.
One item that I find particularly puzzling is that the version of the missile bay that's designed to allow an open door is split in half, whereas the version with the door closed is one piece (aside from that weird bit at the back).
What the heck?
Actually, it makes sense, from one design perspective. The undercut (the space between the two columns of missiles) wouldn't be possible with the design decision they made.
It does look like the missiles will be coming out of tubes on a flat surface, rather than the recessed bay it's typically depicted as, but it's a good-faith attempt to get the parts count down. To do it properly, it'd probably need at least another part per pod.
As for the Gunpod, that's assuming the arm is a singular piece, and not just a "Here's an arm we assembled earlier" sketch. Either is possible, and assuming "what you see is what you get" with this mob is just asking for trouble.
Eumerin wrote: It looks like you can get it down to 25 if you go with the minimal options - i.e. gunpod instead of mace, and closed missile bay doors.
That should read "get it down to 19", and not 25...
>.<
As for the Gunpod, that's assuming the arm is a singular piece, and not just a "Here's an arm we assembled earlier" sketch. Either is possible, and assuming "what you see is what you get" with this mob is just asking for trouble.
It's possible. But it appears that the hands in question are different, based on the positioning of the index fingers.
I checked out the KS comments for the first time in a while and... they're interesting. One guy thinks the improvements to the spartan design are a bad idea because "they reward the complainers"... wow... just wow... You get a better model that is more in line with common sense and visual aesthetics (at least slightly more) and you have an issue with it because people that pointed out the problems got listened to instead of those who just rubber stamp everything with a "that's great, kevin!"? Wow...
The last update is nice and more of what I want to see but also illustrates a continued altered perception problem at palladium. I can't help but notice the "We know some of you were very concerned about those, and you were not ignored." I suspect it is more accurate to say not "some" but "the majority of folks who bothered to comment anywhere about the product that can be publicly verified and not able to be deleted by ND or palladium"... which excludes the dozens to hundreds invisible fans at local conventions and gama who think the old spartans were "perfect" yet who didn't post those thoughts anywhere (along with pics except for a single source) and the carefully pruned comments on facebook. I don't think we'll ever change the mindset over at palladium but in the end that isn't the priority. The priority is getting better than gashapon minis on our doorstep and this latest update makes that just a bit more likely to happen sometime in 2014. That is progress.
Now that Palladium is finally not alternating between used car salesmen stereotypes and cult of personality worship, there isn't much drama. We're getting what we're getting some time down the road and it'll likely be after gencon and not *as* bad as we were initially shown (but still not as good as promised/hoped).
(and with another week before they get the Veri PPPrototypes, let alone a test sprue) I doubt giving the go-ahead will result in an immediate start. It'll depend on what's been scheduled before that.
when wave 1 arrives. I have nothing in it. I only went in for the SDF-1, and the special characters as I am a modeller more than a gamer and, well, nostalgia. So I am just hoping I have my minis by the time I retire. In 7422 days. 
