paulson games wrote: I suppose in the meantime I'll just have to sustain myself on the misery of the Fallen Frontiers thread
What thread be that? Link please?
As for the quietness, a lot of it comes down to there being actual stuff for people to talk about, and the last update being passable. I think that, and the promise made last week ("The last bits of tooling are in process now, and manufacturing is about to begin. In fact, many items will begin manufacturing next week, with the rest to follow quickly after.") has some people holding fire, but if they do a Northern Gun (Nope, but next week fer shure!), or worse turtle up and wait until next week (We'll do better, we promise!), things will fire back up.
Personally, I can't see how they can make pre-GenCon for KickStarter release. 61 days, production still pending. Heck, we're only 3 weeks away from the one year anniversary of the expectant "Box Game and initial expansion sets should go to manufacturing within 45 after the Kickstarter." that got us a November, maybe October" release date. It's theoretically possible, but requires expenditures I'm not sure PB are willing to make. At least not for the KS masses.
When the announcement there'll be "limited numbers" available at GenCon for full retail sales, I expect there'll be some fireworks. Even though the decision will be made mid-July, I don't expect that announcement to happen until at least the week of GenCon. They've been very coy about it until this point.
For now, some, like me, are just waiting for PB to inevitably step on their junk, having set themselves up completely for the fall. They've been dicking around with no clue as to when production starts, for so long, setting a hard deadline like GenCon, is just asking for it. And yet there'll still be fans who think they can do no wrong. To each their own, I guess.
They were funded by 3k-4K, then plunged back down under funding goal after flip flopping on material choices. The KS comments section is ablaze with fanboy arguing levels that'd make Palladium proud.
I'm not invested in either side, but it's interesting to watch the flames.
The kickstarter ended on May 20th, 2013 and they said they were ready to go to manufacture within 40 days roughly so they were only off by 1... unfortunately it was on the 2013 part of the date. In any case, plastic sprues are being short shot in china finally just for us! To mark this momentus occasion, I'll repost this since it is likely the only date that Palladium cares about...
Unless they air freight backer orders over, I don't think there is any chance of those multiple semitrailers worth of minis getting to any significant portion of backers' hands by the con. I wonder when they'll announce the couple hundred they're airfreighting over to sell to gencon attendees while those of us who will be waiting likely a year for the full completion past the due date and were promised first delivery watch from the sidelines.
warboss wrote: Unless they air freight backer orders over, I don't think there is any chance of those multiple semitrailers worth of minis getting to any significant portion of backers' hands by the con. I wonder when they'll announce the couple hundred they're airfreighting over to sell to gencon attendees while those of us who will be waiting likely a year for the full completion past the due date and were promised first delivery watch from the sidelines.
My bet is on the week of. Announcing it earlier is gonna cause such a snitflit.
Some of the backers are pointing out a concerning issue. That the RDF stuff hasn't been shown. There was the component Valks PPP, and some form for the Destroids we saw at GAMA. But definitely nothing on the revised Spartan either. I'd be seriously concerned if some of this hasn't gotten to test-sprue, and the need to get started has been "Hope it works out all right based on the PPP's". Cause a mistep prior is gonna be a PITA to fix later.
But... but... they're doing it... for the fans! Who didn't pay them over a year earlier of course because the ones who already paid you a nonrefundable amount are no longer as important as evidenced by the Max/Miriya debacle. At this point, I hope they *don't* make it to gencon to sell the boxes even with air freighting over limited amounts. If they choose not to honor yet another promise to pledgers then I hope fate intervenes and stops them from voluntarily breaking yet another. Selling at gencon won't make or break palladium nor the game or the community but it would be nice if karma smacked PB right across their corporate toosh.
warboss wrote: But... but... they're doing it... for the fans! Who didn't pay them over a year earlier of course because the ones who already paid you a nonrefundable amount are no longer as important as evidenced by the Max/Miriya debacle. At this point, I hope they *don't* make it to gencon to sell the boxes even with air freighting over limited amounts. If they choose not to honor yet another promise to pledgers then I hope fate intervenes and stops them from voluntarily breaking yet another. Selling at gencon won't make or break palladium nor the game or the community but it would be nice if karma smacked PB right across their corporate toosh.
But...but... they're apparently NOT dishonoring a promise. They're not selling to distributors and retailers! Apparently selling retail doesn't count. And as Forar pointed out when that weak-as-crap argument came out, there's nothing stopping them fulfilling orders on their Webstore using that same demented logic.
I'm in the process of negotiating a transfer sale, and if and when that goes through, I'll gladly wash my hands of the PB clusterfeth. However, if it fails, and I have to receive the product, and get slapped around like I expect on the secondary markets, yeah, I hope they up and fail. All I've wanted since Spartangate was my money back. Nothing more, nothing less. But yeah, they'll be hearing it from me at GC if they're selling it first. It's too bad they fixed the Spartans, cause now my TShirt idea isn't as funny.
As I've noted elsewhere, a couple of things hit me here;
They haven't said WHAT of Wave One is in production. All of it at once? One sprue? The dice and boxes? The lack of specificity isn't instilling great confidence.
And the store date has changed on their weekly update:
"Retail Release Date: In stores September, 2014."
Seems awfully ambitious. Would require them to have all of the backer boxes shipping from the warehouse (however many that may be) out the door in August at the latest. Bit of a tall order, given that they're relying on volunteer help, have Gencon to deal with (which eats up time before the event and usually involves some recovery time from whatever plague they bring back with them), etc.
All it'd take is one snag in shipping or customs to blow that rather optimistic timeline out of the water.
Or a small production delay. Or even two of their slave labor/volunteers deciding they don't want to be taken advantage of and that continued or possible future freelancing isn't worth free manual labor. Or something is systematically wrong with what is sent over from the factory. Or a flock of migrating pigeons take roost within a mile of the warehouse and they need to document it for posterity. Any number of things could derail it given the recent history.
So since their update last night said that full production has begun, and it will conceivably be 2 weeks to produce everything plus retail, that puts it leaving on a boat the beginning of July after it passes Chinese customs. A month on the ocean, a week in customs and movement to Michigan puts it at PB the week before GenCon at best. Pretty disappointing. Will be interesting to see what PB does.
You forgot "And send out 2 BCs first so they can claim that they started shipping before any went on sale anywhere. "It's not our fault there's soooooooo much to ship, even though we reduced what we needed to send out by about 70%, and steel moulds are sooo expensive, we were lied to when we were told they were 3 for a $1, so we just HAVE to sell some of the stuff we have made so that we can afford to cut the steel for the next load. It's not our fault, really it's not!"
I think you guys are being incredibly cynical. All you guys do is bitch, bitch, moan. You don't see me doing that! Since when have Palladium not lived up to expectations, failed to deliver on promises, misrepresented (through either deceit or ignorance, obviously neither) the facts, or missed deadlines? Have faith, people! Palladium shall deliver!
If I don't have anything by the time I leave my house for GenCon, and they have them for sale at the con, they're going to fulfill my pledge at the Con. Their booth is the first place I'm going when the con opens Thursday morning. I'll have printouts of my pledge, my CC statement that they have my money, and anything else I might need to prove that that product belongs to me. Bought and paid for.
Also what i don't want is for them to ship everything out right before GenCon so that it's sitting on my front door for the week that I am gone to the con. I have a feeling this is what is going to happen though.
Morgan Vening wrote: I think you guys are being incredibly cynical. All you guys do is bitch, bitch, moan. You don't see me doing that! Since when have Palladium not lived up to expectations, failed to deliver on promises, misrepresented (through either deceit or ignorance, obviously neither) the facts, or missed deadlines? Have faith, people! Palladium shall deliver!
fruitlewps wrote: If I don't have anything by the time I leave my house for GenCon, and they have them for sale at the con, they're going to fulfill my pledge at the Con. Their booth is the first place I'm going when the con opens Thursday morning. I'll have printouts of my pledge, my CC statement that they have my money, and anything else I might need to prove that that product belongs to me. Bought and paid for.
Also what i don't want is for them to ship everything out right before GenCon so that it's sitting on my front door for the week that I am gone to the con. I have a feeling this is what is going to happen though.
Much as it might feel nice to do probably best not if you've paid to attend GenCon (you don't want to miss the rest of it if security gets involved)
fruitlewps wrote: If I don't have anything by the time I leave my house for GenCon, and they have them for sale at the con, they're going to fulfill my pledge at the Con. Their booth is the first place I'm going when the con opens Thursday morning. I'll have printouts of my pledge, my CC statement that they have my money, and anything else I might need to prove that that product belongs to me. Bought and paid for.
Also what i don't want is for them to ship everything out right before GenCon so that it's sitting on my front door for the week that I am gone to the con. I have a feeling this is what is going to happen though.
Much as it might feel nice to do probably best not if you've paid to attend GenCon (you don't want to miss the rest of it if security gets involved)
I'd pay money to see PB kicking a backer out of the con. Stream it to the world, too.
Morgan Vening wrote: I think you guys are being incredibly cynical. All you guys do is bitch, bitch, moan. You don't see me doing that! Since when have Palladium not lived up to expectations, failed to deliver on promises, misrepresented (through either deceit or ignorance, obviously neither) the facts, or missed deadlines? Have faith, people! Palladium shall deliver!
Not sure if serious?
I mean, was that sarcasm (I hope) or a joke?
I...can't tell.
Ahhh. Poe's Law. It's a force of nature.
Poe's Law - Without a blatant display of humor, it is impossible to create a parody of extremism or fundamentalism that someone won't mistake for the real thing.
I thought I'd maybe gone too whackadoodle to not have it apply, but apparently not. That's both funny, and really really sad at the same time.
Sining wrote: Welp, I'll be headed down to Gencon so maybe I'll drop by PBs booth as well and meet Kevin.
Be sure to wear your penitent robes when you pilgrimage to see Thulsa Kevin! Only the most devout get mentioned in his murmurs. Be sure to use lots of words like "perfect", "love it!", and "you can do no wrong" to get his attention. Only sacrifices of dignity and self respect will turn the Eye of Siembeda in your direction. Constructive criticism is not welcome and you will be cast from the Booth of Fan Friend Customers if you dare provide it.
Not sure of the validity of the claim, but the following was posted on PB's Facebook. I checked ND's page to see what he was referring to, but searching Facebook is like herding cats.
Rori Beedm - Just yesterday Ninja Division said that they still hadn't received any new sprues since the battlepods. This means either they're going ahead with the production of the battlepods and still haven't finalized the RDF stuff, or they're rushing ahead with the RDF stuff in whatever condition it's in without assembling a test sprue of it, or in the last 24 hours they received a package with the test sprues for the RDF stuff, rushed assembly and approved it. I'm not sure which is actually the case, but all 3 possibilities have me a little bit worried since a rushed approval could have missed something, doing partial production means having to wait until they finally approve the RDF stuff and then start another run for those sprues, and just pushing ahead with the RDF stuff in an unconfirmed state could backfire horribly.
So, take it with a grain of salt. But also, taking PB's track record to date into account, and it's not an unbelievable claim either. The fact that we haven't seen a single RDF miniature on sprue*, or better yet, assembled off of a sprue, is in my book, a big "Potential clusterfeth incoming!".
* Hey, at least we saw the Artillery Regult Sprue. That it's been 7 weeks, and they still haven't shown it assembled, well, that's just par for the course in sunny Palladiutopia. Where the farts smell like rainbows, and 99% of the people think it's going swimmingly.
Considering both Palladium and ND have raved and approved minis that looked like absolute crap in Robotech and Relic Knights respectively, I put more faith in that than any proclamation of "you'll love it!" from either. Seriously, how amateurish does your company have to be to believe something INCREDIBLY important to your million dollar campaign was sent in the mail and you didn't bother asking for tracking or follow up on it... for two weeks... only to find out that it was never sent. That is the level of "competent" management we've seen on this project and if they approved final sprues sight unseen AFTER seeing issues like pegs that don't fit and crappy divided parts then it fits in with the pattern that the two have established.
Yes, that's right... I believe random guy on the internet over PB/ND. Why? Because random guys using common sense and following an ESTABLISHED pattern of ignorance and ineptitude have been more accurate in predicting the course of this product since before crowdfunding started than the companies involved with all the power and information at their disposal.
Lack of RDF mech sprues or even a test print of the spartan has me wondering how finished things are, and how rushed it is to make it to production.
Either they don't have any test prints or test sprues... or have chosen not to reveal any as to avoid any further critique as they have no time to make any further alterations and revisions. Given that it took them ages to address the Spartan it does leave me curious if they did any final tweaks on the veritechs or if they'll be the same as the prototyped pieces.
I'd hate to think that they gave the greenlight without seeing at least a couple test sprues of the RDF mechs, and if they do have those sprues in why not include them in any updates? I'm still wondering why we haven't seen an assembled artillery pod as they've had it quite a while now? Seems less than forthcoming but why provide actual pictures when you can drum up a bunch of useless head spinning, jaw dropping, mouth watering buzz words for updates.
Given the glacial pace that the ks updates have been moving at it seems like there was a huge jump within a 2-3 week period, or their updates have been intentionally weak and unhelpful f tracking here the true progress was at.
Assuming a single mold; ~60k sprues in a week would require 10 seconds per sprue without a single delay, adjustment, maintenance period or other issue. That's for the big number stuff (Battlepods, VTs).
So either they need multiple molds of the big runs, need vastly more time (3 weeks sounds more realistic), or we're seeing just more blind optimism running headlong into reality.
Now, granted, said ND guy might've been rounding down (still hits an issue where '10 days' is still not very long for this size a run).
Also, as has been discussed; that's just for backers. Backers+retail is going to be much, much bigger, and between the extra costs they won't want to eat and the claims of "5 semi trailers" being vastly more than the backer run would require, something is going to have to give, and it won't be reality.
I'm guessing this was meant to placate the masses (things have settled down lately) and in a week or two we'll get a "woah, there've been a few snags, this is taking, like, soooo long! Yeah, backer stuff should go out in August, but if you're at Gencon...." kinda thing.
Though that last part is subject to some whims. Max/Miriya slid under the radar for nearly a month before anyone addressed the controversy, so I'm guessing they may wait until something approaching the last minute; enough time to get the word out and rake in cash from the resellers and devout, but not long enough for negative buzz to really build.
Morgan Vening wrote: I think you guys are being incredibly cynical. All you guys do is bitch, bitch, moan. You don't see me doing that! Since when have Palladium not lived up to expectations, failed to deliver on promises, misrepresented (through either deceit or ignorance, obviously neither) the facts, or missed deadlines? Have faith, people! Palladium shall deliver!
warboss wrote: Be sure to wear your penitent robes when you pilgrimage to see Thulsa Kevin! Only the most devout get mentioned in his murmurs. Be sure to use lots of words like "perfect", "love it!", and "you can do no wrong" to get his attention. Only sacrifices of dignity and self respect will turn the Eye of Siembeda in your direction. Constructive criticism is not welcome and you will be cast from the Booth of Fan Friend Customers if you dare provide it.
Is everyone really sure this isn't the Heavy Gear rant thread... it reads so much the same?
Morgan Vening wrote: * Hey, at least we saw the Artillery Regult Sprue. That it's been 7 weeks, and they still haven't shown it assembled, well, that's just par for the course in sunny Palladiutopia. Where the farts smell like rainbows, and 99% of the people think it's going swimmingly.
warboss wrote: Considering both Palladium and ND have raved and approved minis that looked like absolute crap in Robotech and Relic Knights respectively, I put more faith in that than any proclamation of "you'll love it!" from either. Yes, that's right... I believe random guy on the internet over PB/ND. Why? Because random guys using common sense and following an ESTABLISHED pattern of ignorance and ineptitude have been more accurate in predicting the course of this product since before crowdfunding started than the companies involved with all the power and information at their disposal.
paulson games wrote: Seems less than forthcoming but why provide actual pictures when you can drum up a bunch of useless head spinning, jaw dropping, mouth watering buzz words for updates.
Given the glacial pace that the ks updates have been moving at it seems like there was a huge jump within a 2-3 week period, or their updates have been intentionally weak and unhelpful of tracking where the true progress was at.
And again, some strange reason y'all are discussing the DP9 release process in the Robotech thread?
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: Much as it might feel nice to do probably best not if you've paid to attend GenCon (you don't want to miss the rest of it if security gets involved)
Albertorius wrote: I'd pay money to see PB kicking a backer out of the con. Stream it to the world, too.
If only I had the $$$ - but then, while it might make -me- feel immeasurably better to backhand some certain personage a few times (or more than a few... but let's not get carried away too much with the daydreaming... or hold up the line for too long... ), there is the annoying problem of the effect being wasted when the person being given a reality check is unable to understand the amount and type of wrong they've done in the first place.
What's heavy gear? Joking aside I have no idea how it compares with RRT as I haven't been following it. My interest in them waned after they changed scales, not sure which time that was... which is kind of the root of the issue, more then one scale change wtf?
I don't know this for certain but I recall seeing it mentioned that a typically modern injection machine can spit out a sprue roughly every 3 seconds? I know that for certain simple parts they have machines that can spit stuff out about every half second but they are super simple design making single piece parts and not sprues (sprues require more cooling to remove sucessfully) I've seen video footage of injection machines spitting out simple one piece items like a machine gun which was pretty impressive.
The machines all require a warm up period to reach maximum output speed although I don't think it's very long. I'm not an expert in plastics by any means so I may be off on the 3 second estimate but I recall seeing somewhere when I was researching for trying to get my own line done in plastic. The demold time is impacted by the amount of material volume, thickness of parts and the number of cavities so it an vary a lot. Thinner parts cool faster and can be removed sooner, thicker parts take longer.
Once the machines are rolling they can spit out a pretty impressive volume of stuff so I wouldn't expect that stage of the process to take all that long. Where I see potential delays coming from is with the packaging and container shipping everything as that tends to be pretty random and most other KS projects that have had items shipped from China run into lot of delays. The delays from container shipment are obviously not in the control of PB/ND but are a likely element.
Morgan Vening wrote: I think you guys are being incredibly cynical. All you guys do is bitch, bitch, moan. You don't see me doing that! Since when have Palladium not lived up to expectations, failed to deliver on promises, misrepresented (through either deceit or ignorance, obviously neither) the facts, or missed deadlines? Have faith, people! Palladium shall deliver!
Not sure if serious?
I mean, was that sarcasm (I hope) or a joke?
I...can't tell.
Ahhh. Poe's Law. It's a force of nature.
Poe's Law - Without a blatant display of humor, it is impossible to create a parody of extremism or fundamentalism that someone won't mistake for the real thing.
I thought I'd maybe gone too whackadoodle to not have it apply, but apparently not. That's both funny, and really really sad at the same time.
I hate to break this to you, but it wasn't that stupendous an example of anything too clever.
Chalk it up to the toneless nature of the Internet more than anything else.
paulson games wrote: By the Origin pics looks like Ninja Division is there, promoting all their non-Robotech games.
Lemme guess, like Adepticon, nobody told Palladium?
How big is Origins as a miniatures event? I know it's not Adepticon, but it seems strange that one of the last big cons before GenCon has no apparent Robotech Tactics presence. Wouldn't that be time to get the buzz started with an in-depth showing off of the game?
Obviously, we don't know what's going on behind the scenes, but there's quite a few obvious allusions that can be made from some simple questions. Why aren't PB there? If PB aren't there, why aren't ND promoting the product? Be interesting to see how it plays out over the next three months.
I think that's a cop out. Origins I would say is heavily oriented towards miniatures and wargames. This SHOULD be the con to go to. It may not be GW centric like Adepticon, which should work in their favor.
"Origins Game Fair 2014 is one of North America’s most prominent annual gaming conventions. Origins takes place each year in Columbus, Ohio at the Greater Columbus Convention Center.
Origins is run by The Game Manufacturers Association (GAMA). Origins was chartered to serve gaming in general, including wargames and miniatures gaming, which at the time tended to be less well represented at Gen Con and Dragon*Con. Board games, trading card games, LARPs and role-playing games are also popular at Origins."
vitae_drinker wrote: I think that's a cop out. Origins I would say is heavily oriented towards miniatures and wargames. This SHOULD be the con to go to. It may not be GW centric like Adepticon, which should work in their favor.
"Origins Game Fair 2014 is one of North America’s most prominent annual gaming conventions. Origins takes place each year in Columbus, Ohio at the Greater Columbus Convention Center.
Origins is run by The Game Manufacturers Association (GAMA). Origins was chartered to serve gaming in general, including wargames and miniatures gaming, which at the time tended to be less well represented at Gen Con and Dragon*Con. Board games, trading card games, LARPs and role-playing games are also popular at Origins."
As someone who has exhibited at Origins and is a member of GAMA, the con is more for board gamers than miniature games.
Gen Con is for everyone, and Adepticon is miniatures of all flavors.
Cyporiean wrote: As someone who has exhibited at Origins and is a member of GAMA, the con is more for board gamers than miniature games.
Gen Con is for everyone, and Adepticon is miniatures of all flavors.
Still, zero presence, especially when an "equal partner" is in attendance, when they've finally got actual product to show off, seems like a strange move.
Yeah, there are people on the PB Forums that insist Ninja Division aren't subcontractors/subordinate, but "equal partners" in this endeavor. Usually, so they can deflect any criticism of PB's bungling of the project to "PB aren't mismanaging their job as project leader, they're not the ones in charge!". It's possible, I suppose, but doesn't explain why ND don't apparently have any RRT presence here, much as they didn't at Adepticon.
There may be other reasons, but it's less than a 4 hour drive. One or two representatives, a back seat full of samples, and hell, get Ninja John to bring the painted Regult stuff down and cost-share the booth with them. Just seems like a wasted opportunity. Especially when they went full gamut at Penguicon that had 1,377 people, and apparently NO miniatures gaming presence, and skip out completely on a Origins which seems to attract 10-11K, and at least has a modest miniature presence (approx 500 of 4500 events are tagged as miniatures, literally 100 of those listed being Battletech, and with games like X-Wing being put into Tabletop).
If PB are at any con they'd have to answer questions, which we all know, is beyond their abilities.
Oh god, what if when they sell these at Gencon, Wayne has to use a register! The line will never move! Kevin will claim due to the perfectness they had a line of customers all day!
Looks like they at least have some models in the display case at the convention. I don't think the assembled versions of scout pod or light missile pod have been shown in any of the updates yet?
No they haven't, They look good together, they must be the ones ND painted for their FB updates.
I'm actually excited again, nothing like the heady heights of the actual Kickstarter countdown, but the cautious optimism of seeing a Thai girl in a bar and not seeing a prominent Adams apple . . .
Thanks for posting the pic. They even put them on correct AND consistent bases! That already is improvement on the GAMA display by the other equal partner.
The thing I don't understand is why they don't have pictures of the scouts and art pods in their official updates? Instead they let info trickle out through secondary means. It seems like a poor choice to let fans at a convention reveal the info with blurry out of focus photos when you have several thousand backers starving for any sort of official communication. Is it that fething hard to treat your backers with respect and keep them clued in on the actual state of progress? Instead everyone gets updates full of pointless buzzwords and no meat.
although it's possible that these are painted printed protoypes
so they don't want to show them ?
Or maybe all painted minis have to go off to HG who have to approve the paint as 'authentic and OK' and these either failed that test or are waiting to be approved?
Is everyone really sure this isn't the Heavy Gear rant thread... it reads so much the same?
Well...they do both involve robot anime from decades past being worked on by companies past their prime... and me. Hopefully my fandom isn't the common thread!
Is everyone really sure this isn't the Heavy Gear rant thread... it reads so much the same?
Well...they do both involve robot anime from decades past being worked on by companies past their prime... and me. Hopefully my fandom isn't the common thread!
Probably is. You're a very patient man.
So, they're finally getting this going?
-Brandon F.
Edit: Also, not meaning the patience part in a bad way, warboss.
Sining wrote: Is it just me or are the seams on the glaugs arms still pretty obvious?
Well, I can see it from here, so... I'd say they still are pretty obvious, yes ^^
warboss wrote:Well...they do both involve robot anime from decades past being worked on by companies past their prime... and me. Hopefully my fandom isn't the common thread!
Well if that's true then it also applies to me >_>
Is everyone really sure this isn't the Heavy Gear rant thread... it reads so much the same?
Well...they do both involve robot anime from decades past being worked on by companies past their prime... and me. Hopefully my fandom isn't the common thread!
Probably is. You're a very patient man.
So, they're finally getting this going?
-Brandon F.
Edit: Also, not meaning the patience part in a bad way, warboss.
Second Edit: Dang, do I kill threads now??????
No worries, I didn't take it any bad way. I'm not too sure about patient but I am lazy. I'll be starting to work finally on the nucoal gears that I bought 1-2 years ago to tide me over till Robotech gets here. If Robotech takes even longer, I'll start working on my truescale Deathwatch marines (now with a terminator "captain"!).
paulson games wrote: What's heavy gear? Joking aside I have no idea how it compares with RRT as I haven't been following it. My interest in them waned after they changed scales, not sure which time that was... which is kind of the root of the issue, more then one scale change wtf?
To be picky, Heavy Gear had one scale change in the late 90s, then some recent-ish resculpts that tended to add/subtract a millimeter or two from canoncially larger/smaller models, or in some casesfixing models that were not to scale (a few tanks).
paulson games wrote: What's heavy gear? Joking aside I have no idea how it compares with RRT as I haven't been following it. My interest in them waned after they changed scales, not sure which time that was... which is kind of the root of the issue, more then one scale change wtf?
To be picky, Heavy Gear had one scale change in the late 90s, then some recent-ish resculpts that tended to add/subtract a millimeter or two from canoncially larger/smaller models, or in some casesfixing models that were not to scale (a few tanks).
I know of the physical scale (miniatures being different sizes), but wasn't there a mechanical/force scale at the same time as well when it went Blitz? ie, number of units per side, changed significantly? Or was that done at the same time?
I know I've seen the force scale on GW increase significantly since I last played. The latest WHFB rules don't look horrible, but the sheer number of figures now needed is off the deep end. For me, that's mostly a deterrence to starting. Robotech Tactics was going to be my first non-skirmish game since WH40K 2nd Ed. And what a debacle of a ride it's been.
paulson games wrote: What's heavy gear? Joking aside I have no idea how it compares with RRT as I haven't been following it. My interest in them waned after they changed scales, not sure which time that was... which is kind of the root of the issue, more then one scale change wtf?
To be picky, Heavy Gear had one scale change in the late 90s, then some recent-ish resculpts that tended to add/subtract a millimeter or two from canoncially larger/smaller models, or in some casesfixing models that were not to scale (a few tanks).
I know of the physical scale (miniatures being different sizes), but wasn't there a mechanical/force scale at the same time as well when it went Blitz? ie, number of units per side, changed significantly? Or was that done at the same time?
I know I've seen the force scale on GW increase significantly since I last played. The latest WHFB rules don't look horrible, but the sheer number of figures now needed is off the deep end. For me, that's mostly a deterrence to starting. Robotech Tactics was going to be my first non-skirmish game since WH40K 2nd Ed. And what a debacle of a ride it's been.
Yeah, that has bounced around a bit, but please keep in mind that the early material was more Battletech-like in some ways (system-level damage, lots of ammo tracking) due to the RPG compatibilitywhich has been pretty much removed from current rules.
Balance wrote: Yeah, that has bounced around a bit, but please keep in mind that the early material was more Battletech-like in some ways (system-level damage, lots of ammo tracking) due to the RPG compatibilitywhich has been pretty much removed from current rules.
Actually, that's a common misconception, but it's not entirely true. Although it's true that the miniature rules of HG had the same detailed damage rules from the RPG, it was not the default system. The default damage system for the miniature rules was damage levels, very similar to the current Blitz damage levels, but without Sturdy boxes. Like so:
Light Damage Units that receive Light Damage are mildly shaken up by the attack, but not seriously damaged. Place a Light Damage counter on the unit's base or make a note on the datacard. If, at any time, a unit register two Light Damage hits, both are immediately removed and replaced with a single Heavy Damage result (see below).
For simplicity and speed of game play, Light Damage has no adverse effects, and a Light Damage unit may operate at full power; the only danger is that if the unit gets another Light Damage hit, it will get Heavy Damage.
Heavy Damage Units that receive a Heavy Damage result are permanently affected. They follow the 'rule of halves:' values for MP allowance(s) and weapon damage are all halved, rounding up. A Heavy Damage result may not be removed from a unit; it stays until the unit is killed (or repaired after the battle).
If a unit ever has two Heavy Damage results placed on it, it is immediately Overkilled. Overkilled units are immediately eliminated from the game and are removed from the board in a spectacular explosion.
Overkill An Overkill hit results in the vehicle being removed from play. This may or may not result in the total destruction of the vehicle. Due to the abstractness of Tactical level play, the vehicle may be destroyed, or it may just have suffered enough damage to make it inoperable - the distinction matters little to the commander, who has just lost a unit.
You may wish to have extra detail in the way damage is handled during game play. If all Players agree, use the more detailed Silhouette standard damage resolution procedure, as detailed in the Advanced Rules chapter (see page 44). It requires additional bookkeeping, however, and may not be suited to very large engagements.
As you can see, the RPG damage system was given as optional, and not recommended for very large engagements. So there
Albertorius, I was thinking more of the 1st edition 'Heavy Gear: A New Era Has Begun' that I think used complex damage as the default for the rules. I could be wrong, though.
Balance wrote: Albertorius, I was thinking more of the 1st edition 'Heavy Gear: A New Era Has Begun' that I think used complex damage as the default for the rules. I could be wrong, though.
Balance wrote: Albertorius, I was thinking more of the 1st edition 'Heavy Gear: A New Era Has Begun' that I think used complex damage as the default for the rules. I could be wrong, though.
Well, that one was an RPG, you know...
That time corresponds to the scale change which happened IIRC right before 2nd edition of the RPG which is what the original question was about. I remember because over 1 year both my miniatures and my collection of rpg books were invalidated by Dp9. The minis changing scale was the first big FU and the abandoning of the RPG edition after only a couple of years was the final nail in that coffin. I didn't bother with DP9 for almost a decade after that. Paulson was referring to the old 1st edition RPG era in the mid 1990's, not the early '00s tactical silhouette era.
Yeah - I was pretty heavy into the minis and books before the scale change. That alone was enough for me to sell them all off and never touch DP9 stuff again.
All this talk of HG has me missing their space game Jovian chronicles.
I still don't get how RRT can go into production when we haven't been shown the finished rdf sprues as well as the reworked vf-1. It seems like PB is determined to get this out by GC by sacrificing more quality. Very sad panda. :(
Don't be so pessimistic. It's not like it is the single most iconic design in the whole series that spawned generations of transformable robot toys or something. Besides, it should be enough that Kevin's 3rd cousin loves the design. Heck, even the guy who stopped by to deliver chinese food at the office loved it! He was so impressed that he asked for Kevin's autograph on a small piece of paper with the order and credit card info when he handed over the food!
It remains absolutely ridiculous that the best source of information for this campaign appears to be bloody well calling them up. That's dumb. It's dumb and silly and foolish and ugh.
That said, a dude on the comments called them up.
This is what he said they told him;
Kendachi wrote:
Wow, just hung up with Jeff.
Great conversation, great guy. Gave me some good, hopeful news.
He says they're being told 3 weeks shipping + 1 week of customs. They're just as nervous as we are about it getting here by the end of July. What surprised me was that he said they'll not be waiting for 6 full containers, as soon as the first is full it ships.
It will be already packed for the base game, and the battlecry add-ons will be a single pack they add to each base game box. So it does sound like it may be a quicker turn around than I thought.
I asked about the replacement policy, Jeff said it would be taken care of, there will be a system in place, an e-mail system.
I asked about the color change for the Zentradi dice. The purple and black was hard to see, the new colors are what HG approved.
Possibly some news in an update tonight.
All in all, it was a really nice conversation. Like, running into a gaming friend and having a twenty minute chat.
Well played, Jeff.
3 weeks in transit and 1 in customs seems waaaaay too overly optimistic, but, whatever.
The replacement policy is replace stuff as needed. Jeff said unless it's a big piece, they'll just send it out. I failed to ask if it would be a per-piece thing or a whole sprue thing.
And he later remembered that he forgot to ask about sales at Gencon.
So, apparently if I want the batch of questions I sent them a few weeks ago, I need to snag an international calling card and ring Jeff up.
Sooooo... that's a thing. I know it's going to make some people facepalm, and possibly drive a few people to a blind rage, but figured it was worth sharing with you guys all the same.
Never mind, I'll leave it in spoilers so my shame might perpetuate through the ages, but apparently they've been doing this for a while.
Spoiler:
Here's the best part of it.
There's been a lot of laughs about Palladium copy and pasting things over the years.
And then there's this.
And yeah, Mr. Dachi, I noticed the comments about how they're still finalizing box stuff and whatnot. Whatever. They've been unclear on what IS and ISN'T being produced or needs approval or whatever, so I can't be bothered getting annoyed when I read between the lines. At this point I have faith that they could have everything on the ship and be two weeks at sea and still be telling us they're finalizing things. I think they finalize sleeping in the morning and then finalize breakfast and then finalize their attire and then finalize relieving themselves of waste, etc, etc, etc.
It remains absolutely ridiculous that the best source of information for this campaign appears to be bloody well calling them up. That's dumb. It's dumb and silly and foolish and ugh.
Well, tell you what, it is even more stupid as standing replacement part policy. Hey, PB, I live in Europe, at the other side of an ocean and lots of time zones away. Am I supposed to call you in the dead of night if you send me some of your gak wrong? And what if I'm not fluent with english? Do you have some staff over there fluent enough in spanish? How about euskera? Yeah, didn't think so. Do you even realize that many of your pledgers are from places named "not USA", and that most of those basically can't call you? And that even if they can, there may possibly be an idiomatic barrier?
Gaaaaahhhhhh
EDIT: Ah, I read they seem to be putting in place an email system. Phew, that would be better.
It will be even better when they, you know, actually say it themselves, instead of a guy who spoke with them.
The popular Robotech® TV show and RPG will be brought to life as a fast-paced, strategy battle game that will debut at Palladium Games' Booth #1223.
● 34 6mm scale, multi-pose plastic game pieces (40mm to 70mm tall). World-class sculpts.
● Combat rules that use D6 and a turn-based system of play.
● Fast-paced combat, designed to emulate anime action.
● Full color rule book, painting guide, decal sheet, custom dice and more.
● Designed in partnership with Ninja Division – the combined talents of Soda Pop Miniatures and Cipher Studios, makers of Super Dungeon™ Explore, Relic Knights™, Helldorado™ and Anima Tactics™.
● Expansions and tournament play support are planned.
Palladium RPGs use the same basic core rules. If you learn to play one game, you can play them all. Port characters, weapons, magic and abilities from one game world to another with little or no conversion! Games titles include: Rifts® (multi-genre), Dead Reign™ (zombie apocalypse), Robotech® (transformable robots, war & aliens), Heroes Unlimited™ (superhumans of all kinds), Nightbane® (superhero-horror), Palladium Fantasy RPG® (epic), Splicers® (weird sci-fi), Beyond the Supernatural™ (modern horror), After the Bomb® (mutant animals) and others.
Two coupons to get a 50% DISCOUNT on Robotech® “manga” sized RPG titles (only $8 each!) and select other Palladium RPG titles will appear in the Gen Con 2014 Coupon Book. "
I'd like proof of that, please. We have no verifiable proof at all from palladium that anything has been manufactured (past tense... as in already done), just empty hi-de-hoo neighbors pie in the sky rhetoric. This campaign reached the "show, don't tell" level of (dis)belief long ago last year. I will however accept you revising your statement to "They claimed without any third party verifcation to be starting manufacture 12 months late supposedly on Earth!". I agree that it doesn't have quite the same ring though as a joke.
Heavy Gear is currently in alpha testing for the new rules and that is what the update relates to. The upcoming rules are *NOT* compatible at all with previous products and are a completely different and new set of mechanics unrelated to the HG rules published prior going back to 1st edition in the mid 1990's.
The existing basic rules are available for free on DrivethruRPG under the title "Field Manual". The army construction rules for the various forces though are paid downloads (or you can use the excellent and free Gear Garage program similar to Army Builder to make the forces).
The popular Robotech® TV show and RPG will be brought to life as a fast-paced, strategy battle game that will debut at Palladium Games' Booth #1223.
● 34 6mm scale, multi-pose plastic game pieces (40mm to 70mm tall). World-class sculpts.
● Combat rules that use D6 and a turn-based system of play.
● Fast-paced combat, designed to emulate anime action.
● Full color rule book, painting guide, decal sheet, custom dice and more.
● Designed in partnership with Ninja Division – the combined talents of Soda Pop Miniatures and Cipher Studios, makers of Super Dungeon™ Explore, Relic Knights™, Helldorado™ and Anima Tactics™.
● Expansions and tournament play support are planned.
Palladium RPGs use the same basic core rules. If you learn to play one game, you can play them all. Port characters, weapons, magic and abilities from one game world to another with little or no conversion! Games titles include: Rifts® (multi-genre), Dead Reign™ (zombie apocalypse), Robotech® (transformable robots, war & aliens), Heroes Unlimited™ (superhumans of all kinds), Nightbane® (superhero-horror), Palladium Fantasy RPG® (epic), Splicers® (weird sci-fi), Beyond the Supernatural™ (modern horror), After the Bomb® (mutant animals) and others.
Two coupons to get a 50% DISCOUNT on Robotech® “manga” sized RPG titles (only $8 each!) and select other Palladium RPG titles will appear in the Gen Con 2014 Coupon Book. "
I've been saying it for awhile now that the whole " we promise backers will get stuff before everyone else" mantra has made me very skeptical since they started repeating.
Man, this whole thing has turned into an absolutely bad PR campaign from PB. It's almost like they keep shooting themselves in the foot and saying that next time will be better.
Ninja Division is putting the finishing touches on the UEDF Destroids and Valkyries for the Robotech RPG Tactics.
Also, they commented on the discussion forming in regards to the image.
Ninja Division wrote:Hi guys,
Everything HAS been in production - these are our first "Mold tests" from the sprues. Basically a generation 1 shot of minis snipped off the sprue and glued together by our factory engineers in China, I won't give them points for model building, but I will say we are approving and making the last changes to the sprues that are to be included in the wave 1 releases. Everything has a mold, everything is either in production or the last few mecha are at this final tweak stage - which is important to make sure the parts line up, and everything fits before we start packing them in boxes! WE ARE SO EXCITED - which.. for ninjas.. is like a brooding silence.
Edit: I imagine it goes without saying that the fact the factory in China is assembling these, rather than waiting for the sprues to be sent by carrier pigion to ND/PB for test fits and final approval gives some credence to the concerns of the RDF wave one stuff being a bit rushed.
What impact that will have on the final product quality remains to be seen, but I'm not taking it as a good sign.
The hips on the one on the left are definitely 'off'. Possibly trying to get some of that "multi pose" these models supposedly have?
As for the missiles, according to the RPG, they have 11 missiles per arm, with an 'outer ring' of them around a trio in a triangular cluster in the middle. The artwork from the RPG book makes the individual missiles look bigger/has less empty space present though. Especially that one corner. No idea why it isn't an actual outer circle.
A google image search shows some variations across the toys, but the apparent screen cap seems to follow roughly that layout. 8 around the drum, 3 in the middle. Ish.
Edit: the "experimental" parts I can take or leave, but I stand firm in my hatred of the "command modules".
Ninja Division wrote:Hi guys,
Everything HAS been in production - these are our first "Mold tests" from the sprues. Basically a generation 1 shot of minis snipped off the sprue and glued together by our factory engineers in China, I won't give them points for model building, but I will say we are approving and making the last changes to the sprues that are to be included in the wave 1 releases.
Edit: I imagine it goes without saying that the fact the factory in China is assembling these, rather than waiting for the sprues to be sent by carrier pigion to ND/PB for test fits and final approval gives some credence to the concerns of the RDF wave one stuff being a bit rushed.
What impact that will have on the final product quality remains to be seen, but I'm not taking it as a good sign.
It might be semantics but for me something that is still in flux ("making the last changes") isn't in production. When the very first sprue intended for sale pops out of the machine, that is "in production" for me but I'm not a 98% rainbow final fart kind of guy. As for rushing the RDF, eh... I can't muster up anything more than "whatever" at this point. It's progress. It'll never be what it was hyped and what we were supposedly sold but some physical preproduction prototype is still better than just a render or low quality 3d print. At least those evil nameless communist chinese horde factory workers managed to assemble the minis better than Palladium did.
warboss wrote: factory workers managed to assemble the minis better than Palladium did.
Sad isn't it?
I agree with test pieces not being a measure of "in production" it's close but still not the finalized product that customers will see in their hands, which is what items I'd consider by in production. But when dealing with Palladium Double Speak TM what they really, really, want is more important then actual reality. If reality ever runs counter to the decrees handed out by Kevin (or his official mouth piece) then we clearly misheard or misunderstood the earlier statements, even if it was presented in type. Infallibility has it's rewards.
It might be semantics but for me something that is still in flux ("making the last changes") isn't in production. When the very first sprue intended for sale pops out of the machine, that is "in production" for me but I'm not a 98% rainbow final fart kind of guy. As for rushing the RDF, eh... I can't muster up anything more than "whatever" at this point. It's progress. It'll never be what it was hyped and what we were supposedly sold but some physical preproduction prototype is still better than just a render or low quality 3d print. At least those evil nameless communist chinese horde factory workers managed to assemble the minis better than Palladium did.
I one hundred percent agree.
Let's say, maybe the VF was not ready to be popped out of the mold and into a Robotech box, how the hell do they claim it's "In Production!"?
They're sick in the head. Seriously, no rainbow sarcasm, mentally impaired.
Also, if running test sprue means it's in production - hasn't it been in that state for a long time already? This is bull.
It might be semantics but for me something that is still in flux ("making the last changes") isn't in production. When the very first sprue intended for sale pops out of the machine, that is "in production" for me but I'm not a 98% rainbow final fart kind of guy. As for rushing the RDF, eh... I can't muster up anything more than "whatever" at this point. It's progress. It'll never be what it was hyped and what we were supposedly sold but some physical preproduction prototype is still better than just a render or low quality 3d print. At least those evil nameless communist chinese horde factory workers managed to assemble the minis better than Palladium did.
I one hundred percent agree.
Let's say, maybe the VF was not ready to be popped out of the mold and into a Robotech box, how the hell do they claim it's "In Production!"?
Oh, come now. You KNOW the VF is one of, if not the only one, to not be ready. Because they'd be shouting it from the rooftops if it was ready. That they could have gotten this deep into the project, and NOT made the most iconic figure in the game the very first frikkin priority, just reeks of classic Palladium. And that crap is STILL being tweaked (including the printed material)... words fail me.
How they intend to "ship out containers as they're produced" will work when not everything is in production, seems like another bit of statement without real substance.
Kendachi wrote: They're sick in the head. Seriously, no rainbow sarcasm, mentally impaired.
Also, if running test sprue means it's in production - hasn't it been in that state for a long time already? This is bull.
Of course it is. But it's also par for the course. As is any delay from here on out being someone else's fault. "We spent literally 12 months dicking around with this project, gave the production/shipping guys an unrealistic schedule with a hard deadline, and if it's late due to unforseen errors (those being any we wished wouldn't happen, but were kinda expected), it's on them!".
On the actual pictures, the hips may just be a positioning thing, but the seemingly missing warhead on the missile pod just looks meh. It looks like someone printed it up with 12 warheads, someone else pointed out it was supposed to be 11 as per canon, and one was just deleted from the sculpt, without any effort to make it look better. I also find the top of head thing to be much bigger than I expected. Looks like it's actually about right, but most pictures I'd seen prior, based on perspective, made it look more understated. And I don't recall the original BT Longbow having it at all (BT is my first reference for things Robotech).
FYI the "heads" on those models are spotlights. The pilot is in the chest and has little tank like driver windows/slots which are the detail just below the neck.
The "heads" do look a bit too tall IMO but there's not as many toys or models to compare it with as it's one of the less popular destroid options.
Reference can vary a lot, this model looks more "right" to me. The lenses are more rectangular, while the RRT model has square lenses which makes the head appear thinner and exaggerates the height even more.
The missile spacing they feth-ed up on, even their 25+ year old rpg art has the missles arranged tightly together:
Wait, the backs of the rocket pods are thrusters? I never noticed that! Or is that some kind of gas exhaust vent, like "Don't stand behind a bazooka" type thing?
If so, it seems pretty excessive, wot?
If not, I wonder if changing to the experimental configuration affects their mobility.
Those are vents on the rear of the launchers, supposed to help redirect the rocket exhaust when it's being fired enmass.
The girl is one of the easter eggs they hid in the film from the previous animations that Studio Nue did prior to Macross, there's also a brief glimpse of the mech from Orguss Flyer and one of the Zentreadi cruisers has the Captian Harlock crest on it's prow. It's a super short shot so it's easy to miss but it has the skull and crossbones are on it.
Signature mech from a different series, but offered as a RRT mini
There's a few mecha in there that technically aren't part of the Macross/Robotech cannon that HG and PB decided they now have the rights to simply because it appeared on 2-3 seconds of film within the series, and they wonder why the Japanese companies dislike them and won't budge on releasing newer Macross stuff in partnership. They got crapped on by HG stealing the Macross trademark and series rights.
paulson games wrote: FYI the "heads" on those models are spotlights. The pilot is in the chest and has little tank like driver windows/slots which are the detail just below the neck.
The "heads" do look a bit too tall IMO but there's not as many toys or models to compare it with as it's one of the less popular destroid options.
Reference can vary a lot, this model looks more "right" to me. The lenses are more rectangular, while the RRT model has square lenses which makes the head appear thinner and exaggerates the height even more.
The missile spacing they feth-ed up on, even their 25+ year old rpg art has the missles arranged tightly together:
Still from the show with alt head:
I always wondered if the girl on the chest was from another anime. Anyone notice the destroid on the left says mari ijima. Obviously before her I'm not Minmay years. Not sure if the armoured valk says itano. If it does it would be appropriate.
No matter how tightly they hold onto the IP and the project, ND's responses curry a lot more favour on a site only a fraction of the backer base sees, compared to the actual updates that go out to all 5k+ of us. That's not just telling, it's outright damning.
Forar, stop trying to apply logic/business sense to PB. You could end up in some kind of mental loop causing brain meltdown.
The last update including the murmurs sounded like complete BS since they keep talking about tweaks and final changes. So which is it? I wish Kevin would step down or sell PB. Although I think the only reason he hasn't done it yet is because his fan friends are his only friends. Aaahhh. :(
We "knew" a commercial release would happen before a backer one right?
They "have" our money so why not pursue more?
Seen this with other companies when I "pre-order" so I do not do that anymore (including/especially Steam).
This does not mean I will let it go since we were promised high and low that would not happen. Only time these turkeys are getting money up-front from me ever again (will not even honor replacement for delivery damage).
Anyway, will try to quietly wait.
Unless you just mean never pre-ordering hot titles at the usual 10% off because it'll probably be 20-50% off during the next big sale. That I can totally agree with.
Only game I'm really keeping an eye on these days is the Stick of Truth, and that went down from $60 to 40 during the sale, which is still more than I'm willing to pay at the moment (got some bills that need attending to first). Some games have been worth it though; X-Com and Bioshock Infinite I didn't regret paying 'near full price' for in the least, as examples.
But man, Activision just does not understand how to Steam Sale. Oooh, I've played Modern Warfare 1 and 2, and I see the others in the line are for sale... why the hell is Black Ops still $40 ($20 on sale)?? It's over 3.5 years old! And since I don't do the multiplayer, I'm not paying them $20 for a 4 hour single player "campaign".
Forar wrote: Wait... are you gak'ing on Steam?
Thems fightin' words!
Unless you just mean never pre-ordering hot titles at the usual 10% off because it'll probably be 20-50% off during the next big sale. That I can totally agree with.
Look up "Godus" and "Aliens vs. Predator" never bet on any horse I do.
Made me feel good when "totalbiscuit (Tom Bain)" had a big rant on them (wish he could review Palladium).
My main beef is games still in development never quite living up to their target or games on pre-order where the "demo video" looks nothing like the actual game.
I really hate when companies play with my money and have trouble with "do what you say, say what you do". Still staying somewhat on topic!
Only game I'm really keeping an eye on these days is the Stick of Truth, and that went down from $60 to 40 during the sale, which is still more than I'm willing to pay at the moment (got some bills that need attending to first). Some games have been worth it though; X-Com and Bioshock Infinite I didn't regret paying 'near full price' for in the least, as examples.
I have no argument with you on the titles mentioned there... Those three titles were big hits despite many elements of worry, they listened to fans and were very careful to get what the fans would like (funny not what they would want in some cases, they did better). The details in both games show a degree of care I have not seen by Palladium.<edit> My round-about way of saying they DESERVE the money.
But man, Activision just does not understand how to Steam Sale. Oooh, I've played Modern Warfare 1 and 2, and I see the others in the line are for sale... why the hell is Black Ops still $40 ($20 on sale)?? It's over 3.5 years old! And since I don't do the multiplayer, I'm not paying them $20 for a 4 hour single player "campaign".... that got a little ranty.
Pretty much look up a game, check Metacritic and see if critics and users agree at rating %80+ and put on wishlist, $30 or less if new, less than $20 if greater than a year old. Take a few looks at GOG to see if they have anything (they do surprise!). My method, may not be for everyone.
I wonder if Palladium holds sales? I am a very patient man (or at least learning to be) because of or despite them.
I wonder if Palladium holds sales? I am a very patient man (or at least learning to be) because of or despite them.
Almost never.... most of the deals to be had with them are through the yearly Christmas grab bags where you can *request* items from a certain line but there is no guarantee that you'll get most or all of them. That said... they just had a series of weekly 50% off sales for the past month or so that end either this week or ended last week to make room in the warehouse for robotech storage/package/shipping. If you had asked the question about a month earlier, you might have gotten a better answer. The sale is actually one of the sources of worries because one of their best customers (a guy who buys MULTIPLE copies of books) bought a bunch, paid their exorbitant shipping, and got products damaged in the mail to which palladium washed their hand of. I hope they don't take that attitude with potential missing and/or damaged Robotech items as well.
I wonder if Palladium holds sales? I am a very patient man (or at least learning to be) because of or despite them.
Almost never.... most of the deals to be had with them are through the yearly Christmas grab bags where you can *request* items from a certain line but there is no guarantee that you'll get most or all of them. That said... they just had a series of weekly 50% off sales for the past month or so that end either this week or ended last week to make room in the warehouse for robotech storage/package/shipping. If you had asked the question about a month earlier, you might have gotten a better answer. The sale is actually one of the sources of worries because one of their best customers (a guy who buys MULTIPLE copies of books) bought a bunch, paid their exorbitant shipping, and got products damaged in the mail to which palladium washed their hand of. I hope they don't take that attitude with potential missing and/or damaged Robotech items as well.
If that wasn't bad enough the artist who did the cover art for NG 1/2 dissed him on the forums. I think NMI locked or deleted the thread. A year or two earlier Kevin himself dissed the same customer in one of his murmurs. Then in another murmur he disses another loyal customer for simply creating a FB page to show it won't take months to make a FB page. So from Kevin on down they go off on those who don't buy the BS. Heck one guy just got dissed for making one harmless critic. One of the freelancers went off on the poster and that poster just got banned for his critic. It's nuts. It really is like a cult. Kevin = Jim jones.
ND just posted pics of the plastic valk. It's not cleaned up but I can see the seams on the legs and the the fighter version looks stubby. At least the nose does. Sorry I can't post pics. Damn tablet.lol
I rather like the details, pose, and sharpness of the nose. My only possible quibbles would be if there is sufficient variety of poses in each form (IIRC the kickstarter promo pics showed at least 3-4 basic poses for valkyries) and if the detail grooves have enough depth. If you basecoat and paint them, if the grooves aren't deep enough then you'll lose some of the detail with paint. All in all, the pics raise my hopes a bit for the RDF beyond just "meh" set by the revised spartan (and obviously above the "well, that sucks" of January's spartangate "almost perfect" minis).
Given that their last newsletter was a week ago today, and the last update was 2 weeks ago today, hopefully we'll see both pop up with some new information.
Usual caveats of not expecting it, this is Palladium after all, lawl, etc.
This isn't the official forums. You don't have to worry about "that guy" coming and telling you that every problem possible should have been 100% forseen no matter how boneheadedly stupid and easy to prevent with just plain common sense and that it is your fault for not planning ahead around it.
I... guess that's as good as it's gonna get. The seams on the valk's arms and legs are really noticeable, and I still think that the collapsed tail on the gerwalk looks pants, but... well, at least they exist.
They're almost acceptable IMO, for the price we paid (except for assembly). They're not acceptable IMO, at the anticipated retail prices. Especially with stuff like the Spartan looking like it can't close it's missile doors.
And to me, they don't look much different than the TCI Battletech Plastic Model Kits that were released. Which wouldn't be a big problem, except that was 28 years ago. And I kind of expect improvements to be made in that time. Significant ones.
But like Albertorius said, at least they exist. With this project, I don't think extra time is going to result in better quality.
warboss wrote: The sale is actually one of the sources of worries because one of their best customers (a guy who buys MULTIPLE copies of books) bought a bunch, paid their exorbitant shipping, and got products damaged in the mail to which palladium washed their hands of. I hope they don't take that attitude with potential missing and/or damaged Robotech items as well.
If that wasn't bad enough the artist who did the cover art for NG 1/2 dissed him on the forums. A year or two earlier Kevin himself dissed the same customer in one of his murmurs. Then in another murmur he disses another loyal customer for simply creating a FB page to show it won't take months to make a FB page. So from Kevin on down they go off on those who don't buy the BS. Heck one guy just got dissed for making one harmless critic. One of the freelancers went off on the poster and that poster just got banned for his critic. It's nuts. It really is like a cult.
Absolutely, it's almost literally insane that folks continue to support people who act like that once the curtain gets pulled aside.
I mean, really - who actually acts like that, as if they're some sort of all knowing and nigh perfect demi-god, wallowing in that kind of adoration without any shred of humility that it might not be a good thing?
Yet people like Kevin Siembieda or Robert Dubois, et al, sure manage to gather plenty of folks to follow them without question and feed into their delusions of grandeur, despite endless occasions where they prove themselves to be otherwise.
Sooo.... It looks like PB really have no understanding that words have meaning, context and implication.
Two weeks ago.
We are absolutely thrilled to announce that Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Wave One has gone into manufacturing.
Today.
What it (going into manufacturing) literally meant at the time was that we had placed the order and paid a deposit, which had put things in motion and got the factory started actually making things.
Sining wrote: well at least their long-time fans are satisfied -_-
Maybe they're just so downtrodden, any spark of light illuminates their sky? I compare these miniatures to GW, Wyrd, Privateer and other contemporaries in the industry, and maybe I'm just too jaded, cause I just do not see the cause of jubilation, and the acceptance of the statements PB make. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Fool me 49 times?
Morgan Vening wrote: Sooo.... It looks like PB really have no understanding that words have meaning, context and implication.
Two weeks ago.
We are absolutely thrilled to announce that Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Wave One has gone into manufacturing.
Today.
What it (going into manufacturing) literally meant at the time was that we had placed the order and paid a deposit, which had put things in motion and got the factory started actually making CERTAIN things.
Seriously, I have no words.
I corrected that for you. And, yes, this proves yet again that a glass half empty look for them to exaggerate/leave weasel out room in every statement type of approach is the best approach when dealing with Palladium. Despite that, it is still progress. We should have some form of gashapon by the end of the year baring major screw ups mostly outside of Palladium's/Ninja Division's control now that it has entered a new phase as opposed to the past solid year of screw ups completely in their court.
Out of all the designs ND an PB should have spent more $ on they disappointed me with the vf-1. Who knows maybe when it gets to my hands it might not be so bad. Still those pictures aren't doing ND any favors. I thought they said they were still tweaking the vf-1. Buncha liars.
Do we know if the factory quickly assembled those like with the spartans or if ND did? I think it is personally a core mistake to make the forearms two pieces but the assembly pics may be beyond their control.
I would say running a blade across some of the sprue cuts would go a long way to improving how the valc. looks.
Really hard to tell if it is a bad fitting model or just a bad fitter.
I must admit they really needed to figure out more... discreet locations for where the sprue connects to the part and they are very large.
I can only see picking out the various grooves with washes would be the way to go but only after a horde of filing and gap filling green stuff. Three models per valc. right? Ouch.
Wish on the Gladiator they recessed the missile bay a mm or two. Looks strange flush to the surface, even some rings / grooves around the missiles would do more. Actually looks better with the bays closed. I think painting a dark grey inside with a black shade/wash with white missiles and red tips would be the way to go to "fix it".
"Amazing", "drool inducing" they are not, serviceable and providing a challenge to remove join lines they are (<edit> speak like Yoda I do).
Oddly, what I see here I do not mind, get it over with, I can take it the rest of the way to how I want it. I DO feel sorry for someone new to modeling having to do the extra work.
What I am NOT looking forward to is the question of replacement of non-conforming parts: short shots (cold mold), sag (hot mold) and deforms (hot coming out of mold), sprues missing (missed part on pack), missing part (rough packing) and the dreaded "missing shipments".
Wow, negative today. We are at least looking at models now not renders (Yipeeeee!!!!). It is too bad they barely stack up to all the other models of Robotech that came before them... I know they are new to this biz and all but please, really?
My wish to Kevin Claus is to get these to us before the snow flies to fill the time indoors. Nothing will be forgiven because wave 2 may hit my retirement or some other far flung date.
warboss wrote: Do we know if the factory quickly assembled those like with the spartans or if ND did? I think it is personally a core mistake to make the forearms two pieces but the assembly pics may be beyond their control.
The update says they were all assembled by Ninja John, so not a harried Chinese factory worker
MangoMadness wrote: One thing I dont think that has been discussed is international shipping.
Will they split shipment or will they wait for the complete set to be ready before shipping (ala Myth)
Actually, it's really the one thing they were very specific, and up front on*. Wave one will ship to the backers, then they'll do wave one to retail. Then they'll do wave two to backers, and then split wave two over time in a rollout to retailers. It's going to be hella expensive. I estimate that (if I don't get a pledge transfer) it'll cost them fully between a third and a half of my pledged amount. Not the shipping amount, the entire amount of my pledge, to ship the material to me.
* Of course, given what we've seen, keeping promises (or stating facts) aren't particularly high on their agenda. Just be comforted in the knowledge that IF Australians (and other internationals) get unilaterally screwed on this, it'll be spun as the BEST THING EVER, for Palladium, for you, and for the future of this great game. Disclaimer, only two of those groups will benefit, guess which ones.
Also, way to recreate the details of the (sparsely detailed) original lineart, eh? (look at the arms, they're absolutely flat in the mini. Compare with the lineart; was that the "fidelity" they wanted to recreate splitting everything in half?)
Albertorius wrote: Also, way to recreate the details of the (sparsely detailed) original lineart, eh? (look at the arms, they're absolutely flat in the mini. Compare with the lineart; was that the "fidelity" they wanted to recreate splitting everything in half?)
That was my issue with Spartangate (beyond the parts count one). I personally didn't have an issue with the seams, because I would have been okay with them being armor seam lines, as I'm not tied to the aesthetics of the universe. But the whole POINT of cutting it into two dozen pieces was to make it "accurate to the original art". So, they cut it up into two dozen pieces, to make sure it's 100% accurate on the details, and then the seams just completely bollocks the whole look. Add in how splitting arms and legs along the vertical plane (especially hollow sections) makes it difficult to modify articulation, and it makes no sense, and is the worst of all worlds. Purists of the anima (not necessarily the same as PB Stockholmers) are going to hate it. People who aren't modellers are going to hate it for parts count. And the lack of posability and difficulty of customization means that only the truly proficient are going to bother.
I'm glad some people seem to love it. I just hope there are enough of them to keep this game level. Else it's going to drop so hard you'll be able to see the impact crater from orbit.
I would have been happier with 1990's battletech quality minis that are 5-6 pieces, I don't really care about massive poseability. Something clean and easy would have been better for me and new players to the market. For the price of these retail they could almost have done Gashapon equivalents of each unit.
The way I look at it... getting in on the kickstarter saved me the effort of trying to hunt down the minis as Paulson did individually on ebay. About 5-10 years ago, I tried doing that and had such a hard time that I instead bought a bunch of the old matchbox sized toys to do a mega scale game instead because that was cheaper individually than buying the old 1/100 or 1/200. Now I haven't been in that market for years and wouldn't have spent the time and effort to do so (and probably spent more time complaining about this project over the past year than I would have searching successfully for each mini) but at least I know that I'll be getting some gashapon quality stuff together without further effort barring mispacks/miscasts. I won't ever have to buy wargaming robotech minis likely ever again barring a zentraedi infantry pack (which I didn't get in my battlecry pledge).
They did lots of parts to do detail.
We lost detail on the missile bays (Spartan). Other lined details seem very soft. We have seams where there shouldn't be.
We have huge (relatively) offsets on the elbow guards of the VF-1 (hopefully an assembly issue).
rigeld2 wrote: They did lots of parts to do detail.
We lost detail on the missile bays (Spartan). Other lined details seem very soft. We have seams where there shouldn't be.
We have huge (relatively) offsets on the elbow guards of the VF-1 (hopefully an assembly issue).
"They help lend character and uniqueness to the model.
Truly a collectors item, an "Inverted Jenny" of the stamp world if you will.
Displaying the care-free outlook of the company and it's customers for all to see!
For those who like to spend more time with their models (and who wouldn't!) and prefer more subtle traits; they can fill the features and file to match the fine finish.
The changes in surface texture can best be appreciated by the more senior hobbyists we cater to since their vision is not like it used to be when Robotech aired (1985).
Remember that the company is ensuring that only the largest sprue contact points on the model will do to ensure the highest quality of flow to the model; no short shots here!
Remember to also order our super-heavy-duty Robotech sprue cutter (Toe nail side cutter) to ensure you leave at least 1/16" of sprue on the part for easy cleanup.
For a limited time, order the Robotech "defense field" netting to catch those pesky parts as they fly into orbit when liberated from their hefty sprue! What fun! "
Is it wrong to be able to do this practically forever?
There is so much good source material that it borders on factual.
This is a feature we added to let you know at a glance who was a true devoted fan and who is more recreational. Obviously the real fans will take the time to sort out minor detailing issues, leaving the pretenders readily apparent.
But yes, you can go on for days, maybe weeks. But could you go long enough to make it to delivery? THAT would be quite the challenge, good sir.
In any case, the common denominator is that, no matter how crappy or douchebag the move, they only do it "for the fans". Of course, the only "fans" they ask are the half dozen fan-friends who rubber stamp everything they do as [Tony the Tiger] Grrrrreat! [/Tony the Tiger]. If they can sell full boxes at gencon, they absolutely will... you know... for the ebay resellers I mean Fans! (who haven't yet signed over their money which in Palladium's eyes makes you instantly irrelevant)
Hell, if they sell at Gencon, and depending on how long it takes them to ship the boxes out (and where people are in the line/world), it's entirely possible some resellers will buy, list, sell, ship and deliver on boxes to random people who neither backed nor attended before the backers get theirs.
Mull that over for a second. Sure, they'd probably pay a bit of a markup or even a premium, but considering the shenanigans and time it has taken to get to this point, I'm sure there are some interested parties that wouldn't want to wait for retail (whenever that'll be... December at this rate, if they're lucky).
What's funny is that, while they do already have our money, there's also the possibility for some of us completionist types to be a 'sure thing' for future sales. Hell, I wouldn't mind snagging a YF-4 squadron, as I'd already spent beyond what I probably should've during the campaign as it was. That's a retail purchase there, and add in some infantry or something and an individual backer could be good for hundreds of dollars apiece at local shops or online retailers.
Just because they have our money doesn't preclude us from contributing more (well, if things hadn't been such a gak-show, that is), and it's just another example of the unfortunately short sighted approach they have to, well, everything.
Forar wrote: Hell, if they sell at Gencon, and depending on how long it takes them to ship the boxes out (and where people are in the line/world), it's entirely possible some resellers will buy, list, sell, ship and deliver on boxes to random people who neither backed nor attended before the backers get theirs.
Forar wrote: Hell, if they sell at Gencon, and depending on how long it takes them to ship the boxes out (and where people are in the line/world), it's entirely possible some resellers will buy, list, sell, ship and deliver on boxes to random people who neither backed nor attended before the backers get theirs.
I guarantee this'll happen.
Seconded.
They might as well give this a good last push since this is the only bright spot for a failing company.
Every short term money grab they can manage.
They draw it out another year, they will hear from a lawyer.
What's funny is that, while they do already have our money, there's also the possibility for some of us completionist types to be a 'sure thing' for future sales. Hell, I wouldn't mind snagging a YF-4 squadron, as I'd already spent beyond what I probably should've during the campaign as it was. That's a retail purchase there, and add in some infantry or something and an individual backer could be good for hundreds of dollars apiece at local shops or online retailers.
The max/miriya debacle last year pissed me off enough to drop my intended pledge manager spending to only a box or two instead of the couple hundred completionist amount I initially planned...and in retrospect, I couldn't be happier. The only thing I may buy would be a box of zent infantry but I can live without the multiple glaug sleds, MACs, supers, VF-4, armored VF, counters, etc that I planned to add to my battlecry pledge.
Mike1975 wrote: I would have been happier with 1990's battletech quality minis that are 5-6 pieces, I don't really care about massive poseability. Something clean and easy would have been better for me and new players to the market. For the price of these retail they could almost have done Gashapon equivalents of each unit.
Just wanted to point out the models you refer to are made in 2008. But I do thought I would be getting the same quality as those models from the Robotech kickstarter.
Mike1975 wrote: I would have been happier with 1990's battletech quality minis that are 5-6 pieces, I don't really care about massive poseability. Something clean and easy would have been better for me and new players to the market. For the price of these retail they could almost have done Gashapon equivalents of each unit.
Just wanted to point out the models you refer to are made in 2008. But I do thought I would be getting the same quality as those models from the Robotech kickstarter.
I think Mike's referencing two separate things. Both that 20+ year old BT models would have been better than what we're getting, and given the retail price, we could have gotten those prepainted Gashapon things. At $44US for 10, that's $4.40 apiece, compared to $33 for 6, or $5.50 apiece. If it wasn't for the randomness, and the limited range, something that $1.44million dollars would have gone a long way to circumventing, they're straight up better than what we're getting IMO (though admittedly, I'm not a modeller/painter, and that may have been a drawcard for some).
Don't get me wrong, if it wasn't for the parts count, I think the existing models are (barely) serviceable. But they're not the "world class sculpts" promised. I've seen nothing that would be categorized as amazing, perfect, or have me literally jumping up and down or gushing about the detail and quality. Which are apparently all Palladium have heard. There's a strange dichotomy there.
Mike1975 wrote: I would have been happier with 1990's battletech quality minis that are 5-6 pieces, I don't really care about massive poseability. Something clean and easy would have been better for me and new players to the market. For the price of these retail they could almost have done Gashapon equivalents of each unit.
Just wanted to point out the models you refer to are made in 2008. But I do thought I would be getting the same quality as those models from the Robotech kickstarter.
I think Mike's referencing two separate things. Both that 20+ year old BT models would have been better than what we're getting, and given the retail price, we could have gotten those prepainted Gashapon things. At $44US for 10, that's $4.40 apiece, compared to $33 for 6, or $5.50 apiece. If it wasn't for the randomness, and the limited range, something that $1.44million dollars would have gone a long way to circumventing, they're straight up better than what we're getting IMO (though admittedly, I'm not a modeller/painter, and that may have been a drawcard for some).
Don't get me wrong, if it wasn't for the parts count, I think the existing models are (barely) serviceable. But they're not the "world class sculpts" promised. I've seen nothing that would be categorized as amazing, perfect, or have me literally jumping up and down or gushing about the detail and quality. Which are apparently all Palladium have heard. There's a strange dichotomy there.
If this game used prepainted, or at least preassembled figures, I would have spent a stupid amount of money on it. Looking at what the game comes with, I am glad I didn't take part in the kickstarter or preorder any of the figures. Plenty of Robotech license holders have shown we can get more (and often better) product for less.
@Mike M: Thanks for putting up the videos. You have an interesting taste in background music as well! Any chance of putting up a battle with FPA/Q-Raus?
Morgan Vening wrote: I think Mike's referencing two separate things. Both that 20+ year old BT models would have been better than what we're getting, and given the retail price, we could have gotten those prepainted Gashapon things. At $44US for 10, that's $4.40 apiece, compared to $33 for 6, or $5.50 apiece. If it wasn't for the randomness, and the limited range, something that $1.44million dollars would have gone a long way to circumventing, they're straight up better than what we're getting IMO (though admittedly, I'm not a modeller/painter, and that may have been a drawcard for some).
Don't get me wrong, if it wasn't for the parts count, I think the existing models are (barely) serviceable. But they're not the "world class sculpts" promised. I've seen nothing that would be categorized as amazing, perfect, or have me literally jumping up and down or gushing about the detail and quality. Which are apparently all Palladium have heard. There's a strange dichotomy there.
Well, I AM a modeller, and it was the models that got me hooked on this KS. I don't have anything in wave 1 as my entire pledge was for the special characters and the resin SDF-1 just for the model value. I am still not happy at the delay, and whilst the quality of the models is not the worst I have ever seen - at least they don't have raised panel lines like the Airfix Angel Interceptor from Captain Scarlet or the Revell Babylon 5 Starfury - they are not even 'Average' quality for a modeller, never mind the Perfect that PB seem to be giving them.
I can understand some of the parts count as you can't have undercuts in HIPS and slide-core tooling is much more expensive. That does not excuse what appears to be badly miss-aligned locating pins on those VF arms or the pictures showing huge gaps at parts joins. Still, I have seen worse and a modicum of skill and the correct materials will produce some stunning results. It's just that I don't expect the average player to necessarily be interested in doing that, never mind have the knowledge and skill to do so.
I am so close to attempting to get my money back, but I also want the models as I have been a fan of the source material for almost as long as I can remember.
Ok, just saw this on the Robotech Tactics "Unofficial" Facebook page:
" Hi Guys, I believe Mike crossposted this for me earlier but I just wanted to put this up to be sure. For financial reasons I'm looking for someone to take over my pledge. I've confirmed with Palladium that they do allow for pledge transfers* and actually handle the money themselves on them*.
My pledge was:
"$260 - SHOWDOWN: Showdown backers receive x2 of all BATTLE CRY contents. Including any unlocked rewards.
---Add-Ons Selected---
SDF-1 Qty: 2 x $20.00
Special Edition Resin SDF-1 Kickstarter Exclusive
YF-4 Valkyrie Qty: 1 x $30.00
2x YF-4 Valkyries, includes Fighter, Guardian, and Battloid Modes, YF-4 Game Cards.
MKII Monster Qty: 2 x $40.00
1x Mk.II Monster.
Homecoming Qty: 1 x $25.00
Add a Homecoming pledge to your base pledge.
Includes two 17x11 prints, signed by Kevin Siembieda.
Armored Valkyries Qty: 1 x $20.00
4x Armored Valkyrie Battloids."
for a total of $455.
Anybody interested in taking it over can email me at DELETED or msg me through Facebook. Much appreciated!
*-The procedure outlined by Jeff Burke at Palladium was:
1) Buyer and seller both email Palladium confirming their info and intent.
2) Buyer mails check to Palladium,
3) When Palladium receives the check they reassign the pledge to the buyer and send out a refund check to the seller/original backer."
Are you BLANKITY BLANK kidding me? They want the buyer of a product someone sold to mail THEM a check, and then mail out the seller a refund check? All they should have to do is change the shipping address on the pledge, right? Or am I off in thinking this is completely beyond the pale?
EDIT: And why a check? They could paypal it to them, and then instantly paypal it to the seller. Do they not use credit cards? Oh my god this ticks me off. Idiocy, pure idiocy.
Why a check? For the same reason that Palladium does layouts by hand and really only resolves issues via phone; they're not exactly current on technology.
Why have them do it via Palladium instead of just changing the shipping address? So they get the 10% of the pledge that KickStarter/Amazon ate of course. A $445 pledge sold to another person translates to a profit of about $40 for Palladium on the transaction, which is well worth the labor cost of cutting a check.
So, those questions at least have perfectly rational, if somewhat annoying/infuriating, answers.
EDIT: thinking further it depends if they issue a full refund I suppose. If they do, then yes it's just an utter waste of everyone's time but they're not making extra money.
warboss wrote: @Mike M: Thanks for putting up the videos. You have an interesting taste in background music as well! Any chance of putting up a battle with FPA/Q-Raus?
I did post a second game with FPA on the Facebook page but they are so short ranged I had to rethink my strategy for them. I will see about another game with FPA in a few weeks. I've been on vacation.
Anybody interested in taking it over can email me at DELETED or msg me through Facebook. Much appreciated!
*-The procedure outlined by Jeff Burke at Palladium was:
1) Buyer and seller both email Palladium confirming their info and intent.
2) Buyer mails check to Palladium,
3) When Palladium receives the check they reassign the pledge to the buyer and send out a refund check to the seller/original backer."
Are you BLANKITY BLANK kidding me? They want the buyer of a product someone sold to mail THEM a check, and then mail out the seller a refund check? All they should have to do is change the shipping address on the pledge, right? Or am I off in thinking this is completely beyond the pale?
EDIT: And why a check? They could paypal it to them, and then instantly paypal it to the seller. Do they not use credit cards? Oh my god this ticks me off. Idiocy, pure idiocy.
Or, you know, they're simply not willing to trust that one complete stranger talked the other complete stranger into handing over a $400 pre-order without some sort of tangible proof. After all, everything you read on a forum or in an e-mail is completely true and honest, right?
As far as Pay Pal or credit card, those would be extra fees for the money.
Sure, it's probably at partially "We don't want to have to deal with this, but we have to, so you all are going to have to do it the old fashioned way," but it's at worst just old fashioned and cheap.
solkan wrote: Or, you know, they're simply not willing to trust that one complete stranger talked the other complete stranger into handing over a $400 pre-order without some sort of tangible proof. After all, everything you read on a forum or in an e-mail is completely true and honest, right?
Why does that matter? As the owner of a pledge, if I email the company and tell them that [a) I'm gifting my pledge b) I've sold my pledge c) something else] why should it matter who I'm changing the shipping information to?
As far as Pay Pal or credit card, those would be extra fees for the money.
And at this point it's a cost of doing business. They're literally profiting off of this exchange for near zero effort simply because they aren't building in the kickstarter fees for pledge transfers.
Sure, it's probably at partially "We don't want to have to deal with this, but we have to, so you all are going to have to do it the old fashioned way," but it's at worst just old fashioned and cheap.
Which is why it's so stupid. It's 2014. Mailing checks is way behind the times. I'm not even sure where my checkbook is in my house - I haven't used it in at least 6 years.
They aren't profiting off of anyone. If anything they're out the cost of the stamp, and the time to mail it. It makes sense to me- a fail safe to prove that no one hacks an account to steal a pledge. Paranoid, but it makes sense. I thought it was a clever way to exchange pledges without anyone gettin screwed out of money or items.
And I use my checkbook several times a month to pay bills around town. I guess we're behind the times here in Tennessee.
I should add, they aren't making any money off of the transaction if they give the backer a full amount the buyer paid.
Sinful Hero wrote: They aren't profiting off of anyone. If anything they're out the cost of the stamp, and the time to mail it. It makes sense to me- a fail safe to prove that no one hacks an account to steal a pledge. Paranoid, but it makes sense. I thought it was a clever way to exchange pledges without anyone gettin screwed out of money or items.
Well if they aren't profiting, then they need to go back and learn how to run a business because that makes no sense.
And I use my checkbook several times a month to pay bills around town. I guess we're behind the times here in Tennessee.
Or you're just old enough that you don't use/trust debit/credit cards. Or have the mentality of an older person, perhaps. Not saying it's a bad thing. The only time I write a check is to renew my registration on my car because the state charges a fee for anything other than cash or check.
I should add, they aren't making any money off of the transaction if they give the backer a full amount the buyer paid.
But why have the money go through their coffers at all? It gives them cash flow, allowing them to show money moving on their books, and to let the money sit in the account for how many business days before they send out the check? 1 day? 10 days? 30 days? When they feel like it? Seems shady to me.
Sinful Hero wrote: They aren't profiting off of anyone. If anything they're out the cost of the stamp, and the time to mail it. It makes sense to me- a fail safe to prove that no one hacks an account to steal a pledge. Paranoid, but it makes sense. I thought it was a clever way to exchange pledges without anyone gettin screwed out of money or items.
Well if they aren't profiting, then they need to go back and learn how to run a business because that makes no sense.
And I use my checkbook several times a month to pay bills around town. I guess we're behind the times here in Tennessee.
Or you're just old enough that you don't use/trust debit/credit cards. Or have the mentality of an older person, perhaps. Not saying it's a bad thing. The only time I write a check is to renew my registration on my car because the state charges a fee for anything other than cash or check.
I should add, they aren't making any money off of the transaction if they give the backer a full amount the buyer paid.
But why have the money go through their coffers at all? It gives them cash flow, allowing them to show money moving on their books, and to let the money sit in the account for how many business days before they send out the check? 1 day? 10 days? 30 days? When they feel like it? Seems shady to me.
It's a way to make sure the right people get the right pledge, and a deterrent to keep people from doing it at all would be my guess.
And for your information I use my debit and credit cards for online and out of town transactions. The local water department doesn't take credit/debit, and the bank that has my house loan prefers checks. ALso some places around town(mostly repair shops) don't take credit/debit or checks from new accounts so it helps to use them in other places to get my check numbers up.
Well, latest Update is up, which means hopefully we can move on from the clusterfeth that was U146 (both the stupid claim of what "manufacturing has begun" really meant, and the partisan off topic bickering it descended into.
Simple summary, they show all the UEDF sprues half assed (45 degrees off, partially out of focus, with an assembled model in front positioned so it blends into the sprue in the background). And the announcement that they still have not got everything into production yet. So, yay July/August?
Also, looks like some of the perceived options aren't. The open and closed missile doors on the Spartans, for example? You don't get to choose how to configure them. You get one of each. Even though the open bay one looks like pants. EDIT: And the Tomahawks seem to be the same, but with the old Spartan issue, of seams on the bay doors. Hopefully that's one of the adjustments, or it's just Spartangate all over again.
I'm sure someone will do the full page linky thing at some point, but I'm not sure how to do that.
Yes, now the talk can only stupidly be about Hobby Lobby and contraception for an additional 100+ comments like it has been. People need to stop trying to stop comparing who is on the highest horse and remember that the comments are supposed to be about toy soldiers.
I actually recorded video of myself assembling the second Phalanx today, but the camera stopped recording just as I was attaching the legs to the pelvis. I’ll keep working on that.
warboss wrote: Palladium.. figuring out 80's tech like home video and debit cards since... well.. the 80's and counting!
Well, they're still working on both. Or else pledge transfers wouldn't require cheques. I can understand the safeguard of PB as intermediary (in fact, I'm glad for that), but not using electronic funds transfers just seems such a bad way of doing it.
warboss wrote: Yes, now the talk can only stupidly be about Hobby Lobby and contraception for an additional 100+ comments like it has been. People need to stop trying to stop comparing who is on the highest horse and remember that the comments are supposed to be about toy soldiers.
As one of the people debating that topic, I don't think it's entirely tangential, given how many people comment on making their own terrain/modding figures.
I get that not everyone is on the Outrage Train headed for "NO SCREW YOU-Ville" with a brief delay in "No really this is some bullgak" junction, but hey, at least we're not debating what does and does not constitute a seam for the fortieth time.
And I apologize, I recognize it's not quite the place for that debate, but if some donkey caves want to step up, I'm not going to let their lies stand unchallenged.
Edit: and luckily the new update may keep the issue at bay, for now we have more seams to bitch about, and "Tomahawk'gate" to go on about.
Do you even have hobby lobby stores in Canada? If so, a US Supreme Court decision doesn't affect a canadian outlet. If not, then whether or not the cashier has to pay for her own birth control is about as pertinent to the minis kickstarter as whether the tar in the parking lot of michael's is ecofriendly. Obviously I can't stop you from commenting on it and you're free to do so but don't kid yourself that political mudslinging between the I'm so left I'm right! liberals and the my way or the highway! conservatives is on topic or helpful just because you may someday drive 500 miles to the US to buy some flock for your robotech bases (or in your case abstain from doing it).
Canada is far from spotless on its civil/human rights record, before anyone accuses me of thinking that my gak don't stink, but just because I live an hour from the US border doesn't mean I'm blind to the suffering these kinds of decisions can cause (and groups are already lining up to challenge all kinds of stupid things), nor that the gak 'you folks' get up to can have repercussions on Canada, or simply friends and family I have that live in the states.
If distance prevents you from having any sense of empathy, then I feel sorry for you.
You're kidding yourself if you think that having your workplace pay for your particular choice of birth control is a "human right". If the company was mandating that their employees don't use them then I'd be right there with you but they're not... they're simply asking to not have to pay for something that is in their view inherently against their religious beliefs.
vitae_drinker wrote: Hey, guys if I want to read other people's opinions on politics I'll read facebook. Keep politics there, please.
This is a place for little plastic soldiers and related, thanks.
I agree completely and I apologize for bringing that off topic discussion over from the KS comments into the equally inappropriate area of this forum. Sorry, Forar, but I have no interest in discussing it further here via PM as frankly from reading the comments everyone involved STARTED the "discussion" with their heels firmly dug in place much like with all internet political discussions.
No apologies necessary, just thought I'd offer in case you really felt the need to unload after being subjected to the 'comments'.
Speaking of which, it's always nice when some random guy I'm not sure we've ever seen comment before drops in with "OMG GUYS YOU'RE BEING SO MEAN TO PALLADIUM!"
Dude, unless you've been lurking for the last year and just never spoke up, you have *no idea*.
Also, we're what, 41 days from Gencon? It's adorable how they're clearly hoping and praying for a miracle to happen and some boxes to land in their laps. Less than 6 weeks (more like around 5 when you figure they need time to load stuff into the van/truck/whatever during their usual pre-GC prep time) and they still can't say one way or another.
At this rate we might find out whether or not they're actually selling at Gencon around... Gencon.
I suspect Palladium will move mountains to make sure they have something to sell at gencon, even if only in limited quantities. I have no faith in them putting forth that same effort towards getting our prepaid products out judging from the fact that they're planning on using their existing employee pool of a half dozen plus maybe one or two ND folks plus whatever volunteers they can scrounge up to ship out OVER 5,000 packages instead of planning ahead and hiring extra temp workers to do it right. I'm sure the ND guys will have something more pressing to do after a few days and the volunteers individually won't last more than a weekend leaving only the normal palladium staff. That is the type of fundatmental management failure they're infamous for and continue to do.
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Krinsath wrote: Well what happens if nobody reminds them that GenCon exists and they end up attending a lawn and garden expo instead?
If a lawn and garden expo decided to give them status as "guest of honor", they'd go. That seems to be the deciding factor. I don't think it is any surprise to most folks up to date with this thread to be told that sucking up to Palladium works much more effectively than common sense and actual usefulness. That's how they decided to simply "not know" about Adepticon despite ND going to the biggest minis-focused game con year after year and instead go to no_name_local_animecon as guests of honor.
warboss wrote: I suspect Palladium will move mountains to make sure they have something to sell at gencon, even if only in limited quantities. I have no faith in them putting forth that same effort towards getting our prepaid products out judging from the fact that they're planning on using their existing employee pool of a half dozen plus maybe one or two ND folks plus whatever volunteers they can scrounge up to ship out OVER 5,000 packages instead of planning ahead and hiring extra temp workers to do it right. I'm sure the ND guys will have something more pressing to do after a few days and the volunteers individually won't last more than a weekend leaving only the normal palladium staff. That is the type of fundatmental management failure they're infamous for and continue to do.
Well... to be fair to Palladium, it's hard to announce an opening for a temporary job in November, no, December, no, February, no, June, no July (always July), no August.
And yeah, the lack of faith in effort you mentioned, and the management failures, are while I'm still working at getting off this merry-go-round. Hell, (from a purely selfish perspective) I'm hoping it gets delayed through September. Gotta wait for that cheque to clear.
Has anyone reminded Palladium the Gen Con is coming up? Since they managed to forgot Adepticon (despite it being the biggest miniatures convention) it'd be a good idea that somebody email them about the next major convention. Otherwise, in their old age it's likely that it'll slip their minds.
I'm overall ok with the gashapo detail and level of crispness but.. wow.. that tail on the gerwalk valkyrie is ugly as hell. Why the hell wasn't that made as a separate piece instead of moulded onto the body? I realize they couldn't do much as is due to undercuts but was there really no space on the sprue to make that a separate piece?
Well... to be fair to Palladium, it's hard to announce an opening for a temporary job in November, no, December, no, February, no, June, no July (always July), no August.
And yeah, the lack of faith in effort you mentioned, and the management failures, are while I'm still working at getting off this merry-go-round. Hell, (from a purely selfish perspective) I'm hoping it gets delayed through September. Gotta wait for that cheque to clear.
They don't have to go into the details. Simply announcing that they're bring in paid workers to get the job done quickly and correctly and not just relying on promises of free aid from people who swing by the office would be nice and responsible.
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paulson games wrote: Has anyone reminded Palladium the Gen Con is coming up? Since they managed to forgot Adepticon (despite it being the biggest miniatures convention) it'd be a good idea that somebody email them about the next major convention. Otherwise, in their old age it's likely that it'll slip their minds.
I think we're safe with that one. They've got the deathclock ticking, dontchyaknow?
You have to give those gumball robots credit where credit is due... they have better mould lines than Mantic products and are more to scale with each other than McVey offerings which would be their PVC competition in the tabletop market.
I really loathe the section of outright apologists in the comments who waffle between "these things are amazing! omg my mind it is blown!" and "Look, you just need a dremel, a stocked modeling kit, a few hundred hours of expertise, etc, etc to make them look good".
Man, if your answer is "oh, just be an expert modeller and snag a couple hundred bucks in tools and gear" to make these things look good, you're beyond help.
Sure, having those tools and experience will help, and that's to be expected, but if it's the baseline, it's going to drive away potential players who lack that kind of experience, and add an extra barrier to entry to those who wish to proceed anyway.
It's frustrating that some people just don't understand that not everyone has two decades of GW building/painting and tens of thousands of points across X armies to draw upon. As someone who has only built dozens of figures (mostly pewter, maybe two dozen or less in plastic) and painted maybe half of those, every time people go on about how inconsequential it is for THEM to attend to mold lines and flash and modifying, I can't help but think "Yeah, and I'm gak outta luck, guess I'd better hope my amateur hands don't feth things up too badly".
Ugh.Palladium's mishandling of this project still garners more of my ire, but some of these smug donkey caves occasionally give them a run for their money.
NOTE: Again, nothing against those of you who DO have piles of experience and thousands of dollars invested in your work stations. It'd just be nice if some of these outspoken folks recognized that there are, in fact, new or newer players out there who lack one, the other or both.
Forar: You do realize I was trying my best to channel my inner "apologist" no matter how contrary to my nature that is.
My mistake for reminding you of those who make excuses (but your rant was cathartic all the same).
I keep reading how "negative" dakka-ites are and there just is no pleasing us.
I find it a very good exercise to see how hard it is to support the views of those groups/companies that cause our "challenges".
My job is Quality Engineering so seeing places with obvious system issues and poor customer feedback mechanisms is like folding a map wrong in front of me (poor thing to compare to in this day and age).
There are so many positive steps that could even be taken at this point but like my other problem with GW, Palladium is rather resistant to suggestions.
Oh well, will continue to throw my money at Fantasy Flight...
Nah, it's all good Tal, I know you didn't mean any harm. When I said "in the comments", I literally meant the KS comments. I should've been clearer on that.
It's just something that comes up every so often in the comments. Legit concerns/considerations about a model or aspect will be tabled, only to have guys go off on how quick and easy it is for them, they'll do up 50 battlepods a night without any trouble, it'll be like a weekend to do up a Battlecry to nigh-golden demon (or whatever that contest is called) levels, etc , etc.
I just think it's extremely short sighted of them to give everything a pass because they personally don't have any trouble with it. It ignores the vast swathes of the player base (and potential player base) who lack those skills and that gear, and is often stated to minimize concerns in the least empathic way possible.
But we're cool here. My close friends that played Warhammer and got me into Malifaux were very complimentary of my beginners efforts at building and painting, I know solid folks like that are out there. But the KS comments? There's like a half dozen reasonable dudes and a couple that are in dire need of being put in a time out to think about what they've said.
Yeah, and some people are already commenting on how poorly the miniatures campaign has been run (it's not me).
And, obviously, that's just a taste of things to come if PB ever gets around to the second series.
Hell, ANY kickstarter at all, at this point. Crowdfunding may not be dead to them, but I can only imagine it'll be a much harder uphill battle, even if they manage rely on some serious nostalgia-goggles again.
$20 for the early bird digital only copy of ONE single episode? Pass. If HG wants a half million dollars, all they need to do is get their heads out of their rears and make up with the macross folks. It is by far the most popular of the three and I personally have no interest in overpaying to fund another episode where every likeness is changed to avoid being confused with macross like meathead scarred white hair different voice Rick Hunter in the Shadow Chronicles. Also, take a look at the most expensive pledges. You can pay $2,000-$10,000 to get your likeness in various degrees in the show!!... except that "Harmony Gold reserves the right of refusal at its sole discretion". Yes, that's right, you can pay thousands of dollars and simply be screwed over by Frank Agrama personally at his sole discretion! I mean.. what are the chances that a company with such a stellar rep like HG would do something shady?
Here is a link in case anyone is interested in it:
I wish HG would just go bankrupt. Maybe then we'll get macross back to the west again. I hope non of you guys give them your money. I'm already banned from the RTFB page for giving my 2¢.
OK I kinda have to ask here becuase I'm confused. why is an English producer team (Harmony Gold) trying to produce a sequel for 'Robotech'? Shouldn't fans of the series already moved on to other anime projects?
Robotech, or better known as 'Macross' in Japan is a hugh hit and continue to be so today. With the most recent 'Macross Frontier' series airing 20~ish epsiodes and 2 movies. Why is then HG so desprete in using Kickstarter just to release a 'pilot' epsiode. I kinda thought Robotech was a japanese anime as well.
Does the american audience even know about the subsequent Robotech Series? Macross 7? Macorss Zero?
As a fan of Robotech, the novels, and a few other media, I'm aware that there are, like, a hundred and eighty spin offs, prequels, sequels, alternate time lines, movies, stand alone stories and other random stuff.
Couldn't tell you how to differentiate DYRL from Plus from Zero from whatever that bullgak was with the mecha powered with music from II from whatever, but I know they're out there.
Yes, some of that was trolling. Don't anyone fall for it too hard.
wufai wrote: OK I kinda have to ask here becuase I'm confused. why is an English producer team (Harmony Gold) trying to produce a sequel for 'Robotech'? Shouldn't fans of the series already moved on to other anime projects?
Robotech, or better known as 'Macross' in Japan is a hugh hit and continue to be so today. With the most recent 'Macross Frontier' series airing 20~ish epsiodes and 2 movies. Why is then HG so desprete in using Kickstarter just to release a 'pilot' epsiode. I kinda thought Robotech was a japanese anime as well.
Does the american audience even know about the subsequent Robotech Series? Macross 7? Macorss Zero?
Robotech was a frankenstein's monster type melding of THREE different japanese anime series of which Macross was only the first. Some of the plot advancements in the various Macross series you mentioned happen during the "robotech" story arc as it continues for almost 20 years after the end of Macross. The series you listed like Macross 7 are NOT robotech series but most US roboanime fans do indeed know about them which is why Harmony Gold has the poor reputation that it has because it has prevented them from being easily available in the US.
Holy Crap! I just got caught up with this whole piece of fail that is 'Robotech'... Growing up in Asia I always thought 'Robotech' was just the american name for Macross. Damn and I backed this project thinking it was Macross.
I always wondered why the project is sticking to only the robots from the first anime series when Macross Frontier was the biggest hit in years.
Maybe I'm preching to the wrong group, I never saw Robotech, just the orginal Macross series. But if there are those who do not know about Macross but loves the airplane/gerwalk/Robot portion of Robotech please check out Macross Frontier, at least just give ep7 a try. I hope you guys find there is a larger bigger world of Macross then just what America's Robotech has to offer.
When I was 8yrs old I loved RT. As I got older and learned what rt really was, I unlike some moved on. Frontier is great! I can't wait to get my bootleg of the new series. Macross in its original form will always be superior to the gak HG puts out. I wish HG would stop forcefeeding imitation anime to us. Fire the Yune bros and hire a real anime studio to make a new anime show with giant robots that has nothing to do with RT.
wufai wrote: Holy Crap! I just got caught up with this whole piece of fail that is 'Robotech'... Growing up in Asia I always thought 'Robotech' was just the american name for Macross. Damn and I backed this project thinking it was Macross.
I always wondered why the project is sticking to only the robots from the first anime series when Macross Frontier was the biggest hit in years.
While I'd disagree strongly with calling robotech a "whole piece of fail", macross is by far for alot of fans (but not all) the best part and you did back a macross project because the kickstarter was *ONLY* for macross stuff. The other eras were to be covered by future kickstarters but with this one taking likely 2-3 years to fully deliver that might be in doubt.
I am unsure if it was Gatchaman (Battle of the Planets here) or Robotech was the first Japanese anime I laid eyes on.
Robotech was the first stomping robots show I saw and blew my mind even more that they changed.
Soooo... many years and games of Battletech later, they still get my money. Never really got into heavy gear... not sure why.
My point: I am waiting for Robotech and thinking I need to make myself not care about the other eras because they will be similarly messed up by Palladium.
Any good stomping robot tabletop? Any kickstarter that may have a hope worth supporting? Would love to see a variation of Gundam or even Bubblegum Crisis.
Heck, a wild west game of "Trigun" would make me happy to no end.
See my point? I really do not want to meeting you kind folks again to gripe about the next Robotech release.
Cypher-xv wrote: When I was 8yrs old I loved RT. As I got older and learned what rt really was, I unlike some moved on.
I really despise this argument. Robotech is fantastic taken on it's own. Yes, it shares the first act with Macross, but using Southern Cross and MOSPEADA and the novels/comics for Sentinels it branches off and tells it's own unique story, and it is a damn good story. Loving Robotech has never kept me from loving Macross, Macross Plus and II and Frontier and many of the other things, but they are very different stories and I fail to see how you can't like both for what they are. It's much like the anime fans that refuse to watch anything english dubbed no matter how good they did the VA, just because it's "not pure".
Harmony Gold can go *bleep* themselves, but the novels and comics and toys were freaking fantastic.
Cypher-xv wrote: When I was 8yrs old I loved RT. As I got older and learned what rt really was, I unlike some moved on.
I really despise this argument. Robotech is fantastic taken on it's own. Yes, it shares the first act with Macross, but using Southern Cross and MOSPEADA and the novels/comics for Sentinels it branches off and tells it's own unique story, and it is a damn good story. Loving Robotech has never kept me from loving Macross, Macross Plus and II and Frontier and many of the other things, but they are very different stories and I fail to see how you can't like both for what they are. It's much like the anime fans that refuse to watch anything english dubbed no matter how good they did the VA, just because it's "not pure".
Harmony Gold can go *bleep* themselves, but the novels and comics and toys were freaking fantastic.
There's nothing wrong with liking RT. I don't mind watching new material for it. It's just for me and me only it's becoming Saturday morning cartoonish. SC didn't make me feel anything for the characters. If anything it felt contrived and desperate. When Cartoon Network wanted to produce their own anime series they didn't try to make it here, it would have fallen to the same mistakes that plague rt. Instead with their idea of what they wanted, CN went to an anime studio to help CN produce an original anime series. That way it won't fall prey to american cliché style storytelling. If HG wants to continue with rt, then get rid of the yune's and go half an half with an established anime studio. Heck Warner bros now does the same thing with their dc line up. Same with marvel with the iron man anime movie, which was great. Even starship troopers took the anime route recently. The point is non of it was made by Americans. It was done by the folks who invented the genre, not arrogant Americans (HG) who are fanboys that think they know what there doing. Tommy couldn't cut it with the anime studios so he settled for being king of the nerds to a dwindling few.
Perhaps it's been a while since I read up on the differences, but what makes Robotech so much more "saturday morning cartoonish" than the base material?
I mean, we're talking about a show that kills off (non-graphically) a main character in the first few episodes, and caps off with murdering almost the entire bridge crew. Roy Fokker's death hit me even as a kid.
It may not have been hardcore, but I can't imagine it getting away with nearly as much in the current media landscape.
It also makes it sound like Macross is super hardcore or something. Does Rick tear out the heart of his enemies with his teeth before getting naked with Lisa and then running on stage in his boxers to knock out a rocking guitar solo? :-P
Not directed at you in particular, Cypher, just something that's been rattling around in my head since the KS comments took a turn for the 'omg Macross is a kajillion times better than Robotech' recently.
I was referencing the shadow chronicles. HG didn't up their game. That cool anime style storytelling wasn't there for me. RT was epic and I agree with you that it wasn't Saturday morning cartoonish. SC didn't seem to get that. It's more like tommy made his rushed story to show in one pilot episode everything he likes about RT. He's not a creative guy.
Automatically Appended Next Post: New stompy robot show.
The thing that irks me about the Macross vs Robotech in fighting over which is better is that when it comes to the Macross arc it's almost entirely pointless. For the majority of the original Robotech series HG didn't do squat in terms of rewriting, they did translation but they didn't add any new footage or new story elements to the series as all of that was from the original Japanese studio.
The only area where HG/Robotech had impact is how they wove the second and third series into one storyline. Even when it comes to the later series the only real contributions that HG has is re-naming characters to create a story tie-in and slipping in some edits for flashback scenes in attempt to create a continuity bridge between the series. It's not like they rewrote and reanimated every episode, they just made use of existing material and changed a few words, all of the animation work and major plot points are still directly lifted from the original Japanese material.
It's like a cook that makes a pizza with a slew of toppings, a second cook along takes it from him adds a pinch of salt, changes the name on the menu and now suddenly it's a completely separate pizza? wtf.
Also when it came down to it I could have cared less for the story, sure there were some great moments like Roy kicking it, but OMG did it suck when it was one of the romance episodes with little or no fighting. The worst was if the school bus ran late and you missed the fight scene because it was at the start of the show. It would be like missing the first half of gi joe where cobra was always winning before the last commercial break, if you missed the pay dirt fight scenes the rest didn't even matter. I watched it because it was a show about badass robots tearing stuff up, feth the romance triangle and singing.
Actually I prefer macross with all the romance and singing. I never got into gundam. I love the mecha models. It's just the shows never really appealed to me. The one I did like wasn't even in space. It was more like NAM with robots. Sorry I don't remember what it's called.
Paulson
Will you be making resin bits for the vf? I'm hoping you could help us mecha guys out to try to salvage this situation.
Cypher-xv wrote: Actually I prefer macross with all the romance and singing. I never got into gundam. I love the mecha models. It's just the shows never really appealed to me. The one I did like wasn't even in space. It was more like NAM with robots. Sorry I don't remember what it's called.
Paulson
Will you be making resin bits for the vf? I'm hoping you could help us mecha guys out to try to salvage this situation.
I never cared for the RT/Macross series, but I always liked the mecha and vehicles. That was why I loved the idea of this game, but not the execution.
My favorite mecha anime series is Zoids, the one with the tournaments and the Liger Zero as the main mech. The only Gundam series I liked was G Gundam.
Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Wave One is coming together fast now. I don’t think people realize how many components and moving parts there are to make Robotech® RPG Tactics™. Even the manufacturing broke and the factories keep telling us how much there is to be addressed. So many things to be printed, trimmed, molded, pressed, gathered, collated, packaged and boxed for shipping. There are something like four different factories (including the printer) involved in the manufacturing (rule book, cards, dice, the game pieces, instruction sheets, packaging, etc.) and tons of details and logistics to deal with, especially for the manufacturers in China. Yeow! Things change every day and bounce from good news to bad news, to good again. We feel like a yo-yo some days. But man oh man, are we excited to finally have Wave One material getting finished. Super-excited.
China even sent us a short video showing some of the manufacturing process. That’s not as exciting as it may sound, but it was certainly fun for us to see. I'll have more to talk about on this front later in the Weekly Update. Will be posting more Murmurs on a regular basis.
Kevin isn't interested in entertaining or delighting those whose nonrefundable money he has. He long ago past the "believeability" point of no return when he was telling us that everything was great... until ND told him it all went to hell in a completely preventable and forseable manner (seriously, I look up what image file types I can upload and use in various programs and they never bothered asking what type to use for manufacturing??).... Everything was great and the valkyrie sprues were in the mail according to Wayne... until they found out weeks later they weren't. Everything on the minis was first "watering" then "almost perfect" until we got to see the Intro to STL Design 101 Freshman class project they planned to make.
As I stated earlier, it is best to read anything by Palladium in a voice that is 50% circus barker (Step right up! Step right up! To see the most stupendiferous miniatures the wargaming world has ever seeeen...) and 50% Dr. Farnsworth (Good news everybody! We've decided to sell minis at gencon in response to fan friend feedback before we ship any backers outside of our yesman circle anything!).
Fruit, don't take the above as directed towards you as it isn't as I do appreciate you posting it. I just don't believe anything palladium says without verifiable proof.. like.. you know.. them posting the video that makes them so happy. With the way this kickstarter has gone, the FANS will probably be the first to notice miscasts and short shots in the sprues on the video. Until then, I'm going to file this one under "BS until proven otherwise" alongside the minis construction video that we were supposed to get.
Don't be ridiculous; child labor is in places like Burma and Bangladesh. The video from China would show murderers, religious groups, and democracy activists that form prison populations.
Hey, at least they're finally setting reasonable deadlines.
From last week's PB Update.
Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Box Set
Retail Release Date: In stores September, 2014.
Not a single box has been announced as complete yet (last week's KS Update still had three sprues yet to begin), packing time, shipping time (including potential west coast port issues), GenCon (and it's aftermath), and shipping out to all 5000+ backers, all to happen well within the 12 weeks between now and September 31st. Because the statement has ALWAYS been backers get theirs before it goes retail. Not "will have it shipped" before. The GenCon issue is legally (if not morally) a grey area, but this is something different.
Anyway, glad they're no longer just pulling dates out of their proverbial, anymore.
I hope RTA doesn't get funded. Now there appealing to their flock in Latin America. The rt fanbase needs to realize they love macross and start enjoying the superior animation and storytelling.
The latin american flock that they screwed over by shutting down the spanish fan live action project? I hope they don't fall for it.
@Morgan: There is no legal grey area. They apply for a retailer license in Indiana to set up a booth at gencon. Selling there *IS* retail. Whether or not this ends up being yet another broken promise though is another story. I have zero faith in them not flipping the bird to backers and breaking their promise *IF* they can. With how late they're running for their 6th delivery date, even air freighting over boxes might not be done in time. I actually hope they have nothing to sell there besides max and miriya. I'd be fine with them handing out a single battlepod or veritech to demo participants though as well as taking preorders but selling full kits while the backers don't get squat likely for 1-3 months post gencon? No... not fine with that.
Going with Pewter, maybe some resin? Who know what they'll pull out in 'omg limited quantities!' to drive the ebay resellers and LE seekers into a frenzy.
Last year they did Max and an FPA; two of the biggest things requested during the campaign that they were strangely silent about. It was basically doing their market research for them, figuring out where people in the throes of lust to give them big piles of money really wanted to be touched.
And as obnoxious as this kinda gak often is, it was kind of a 'slap in the face' to the backers to run with it for Gencon.
So if they really wanted to be donkey caves about this? This year would be a MAC II or a Super VT. If they try for one RDF, one Zentraedi figure again, not quite sure there's something that really got the people in a frenzy like the FPA did last year, but one of those plus... I guess an Officer's pod to draw in some of the Battletech crowd? They'd sell out every day, no questions asked.
Just sayin'; I'd be surprised if they didn't expand that collection of Convention exclusives this year.
warboss wrote: @Morgan: There is no legal grey area. They apply for a retailer license in Indiana to set up a booth at gencon. Selling there *IS* retail. Whether or not this ends up being yet another broken promise though is another story. I have zero faith in them not flipping the bird to backers and breaking their promise *IF* they can. With how late they're running for their 6th delivery date, even air freighting over boxes might not be done in time. I actually hope they have nothing to sell there besides max and miriya. I'd be fine with them handing out a single battlepod or veritech to demo participants though as well as taking preorders but selling full kits while the backers don't get squat likely for 1-3 months post gencon? No... not fine with that.
The "grey area" isn't one I'm a believer of. I personally think it's wrong. I'm just conveying the debate the PB Stockholmers were running with. That there's a difference between selling retail, and having it sold by retailers. The argument ostensibly is, PB are the creators, and therefore aren't retailers. Yes, it's bureaucratic legalese wankery, but that's what they're claiming. And given how the legal system works, and the current consumer safeguards are on Kickstarter (ie, apparently zero, zilch, zip, nada, nothing), I don't like being categorical about "legal". I thought corporate personhood was a ridiculous concept. And it's the law of the land.
Forar slapped the idea down by pointing out that means they can sell through their webstore, and fulfill that, before shipping to backers. It's IMO, a stupid argument, but I don't think even those people could see it being "In stores September 2014" before all KS participants got theirs, would be able to defend it (though lawyers still might).
You mention 1-3 months later to backers, which I think is probably accurate. But they've now made a commitment to 6 weeks after GC to retail. It's got clusterfethery written all over it.
I'm also not convinced they'll have product at GenCon, but I consider it a definite possibility. If they're intending to sell it full price to the general public (rather than have it just to fulfill backers who want to pick it up), shipping airfreight isn't an impossibility. By ship is IMO out of the question. Be interesting if they do, to see how significant the backlash is.
So I placed these on the FB page and was asked to share here.
So Battlepods are pretty much as expected too. They have a few options for stances and variety but not many. The top turrets are all interchangeable which means you can buy an Arty Pod pack and use extra missile parts to make more Arty Pods at a slightly cheaper price.
I think we have not see a painted or prepped Light Arty Pod mini yet.
Glaug, this is pretty much as expected and promised except the seams on the legs that have hopefully been tightened up even more but the painted ND pics and fig were as expected. The details on the legs and thighs are awesome. The bad thing is that the torso comes in two halves but does not look like it will be a problem for even newer modelers to tighten up but if it is not fixed a wash could bring that line out and make it show up when the mini is painted.
Defender, so this is kinda of a question mark. The angle of the pic, although I think they meant it to look cool, makes it hard to see what and if there are details on the arms. The leg details are pretty good. I think that the definition or separation between on the lower part of the "ammo" bins and the torso is much better defined in the KS pic than on the actual model but again this could just be a function of the angle of the pic and the lighting. When painted this could look much better with a wash. The seam right down the center of the torso and the legs will hopefully be adjusted a bit. I never liked the flat panel look on the central section so it might be a spot to put some interesting detail on to hide the seam and also give the model some pep. I never liked the way that center section drops down. I would have much preferred a look more like that of the Battletech Vulture. Here is an example.
http://image.playwares.com/bbs/data/mutiupload/image/ebe9abb3352b52efe1464b36f5bdbcfb.jpg
Here is the #1 controvesial pick of the day. Now that I look closer, it's actually not that bad. Could be just me though.
Let's start with the lesser evil as it were, the Phalanx/Longbow
First off it there is some really great detail on this mini. This was never one of my favorites and with the mechanics and the way Blast missiles work in game it can be devastating but requires a bit of luck to use properly. Now the first thing I noticed are th...e missiles, they KS shows well defined missiles while they are not as clear or well defined in the mini. I guess some careful paint and wash might fix that. The leg seams are still there but look much tighter than what we saw around Spartangate with the big gaps. Obviously Wayne is not a minis gamers because the ones he assembled were horribly done. The blast doors on the mini had those ridges defined along the edges but it might be the picture but they are not clear on the actual mini pic. Also the cockpit actually looks MORE defined in the mini than the KS pics. The last thing I noticed was the central torso has four bolt or connection markers like the entire front is a solid plate that is bolted on. Those bolt might be on the mini but they are hard to see. A well painted mini would clear much of the questionable details as a good wash and dry brush would bring a lot of that out. ( I was told later that those bolts are indeed on the mini and will come out in a wash by a fellow backer)The special missile packs and command adds look ok. As always extreme care will have to be taken cutting these off the sprue. Obviously these were not removed with that care.
Now the Spartan. The center torso has a seam. The pieces are tight but the top will require a bit of sanding unless the final mini was changed a bit. The closed door missiles shoulder pads also have a seam that may require help. The legs actually look good to me. The rear part shows a bad seam but that might be shown as a part of the design by a clever painter. Otherwise a wash could make it glow in the dark. The back and arms have a massive amount of detail, I would have gladly lost a bit of that for more detailed missile and better missile covers though. The missiles are nubs, to be fair the KS pic showed them as such but with a bit more detail or a bit more raised than we see here. Also the missile doors are one piece but are just flat. I wonder if they would have been better as designed originally with two pieces and more detail...
Pics on the painted Spartan from ND
https://www.facebook.com/NinjaDivision/photos_stream I do see that the painted Spartan does not have a seams on the center torso so either something was done there or the torso was changed. I'd have to look back to be sure.
Veritech Battloid
The KS pic does not show the stripe detail on the chest that the mini does as well as the details on the shoulder lights. The Feet fins are less defined in the KS pic but the arms have seams and so do the legs and the feet look different. The feet also look torn off the sprue. Careful cutting will be a must. More th...an acceptable if the seams are fixed up some with the molds.
Guardian Mode
The wings look like they have more detail than the KS pic BUT the globs on the end that are the landing lights looks funny to me. The back/top thrusters look well defined and as a separate piece in the KS but is a block on the actual mini. If the seams are fixed on the arms and legs, a slight let down but again acceptable.
Fighter mode
The wings on the actual model look like they have more detail than what was shown in the KS pics. The rear fins and wings are a bit thicker, to some that is bad and unacceptable to others not so much. Not a fan of the landing light bulges myself.
Flight stands
As promised, why are people so upset? Maybe they did not see the pics that from the start show the stands were and are the same plastic as the mini. Sometimes we don't look at the details and make assumptions. Either way they are as we were promised.
Poseability (no idea if that is spelled right)
We have multiple arms but limited leg stances. Wings cannot sweep but honestly we were never shown wings that could from what I remember. They always looked solid and in the open position. I for one was not looking to pose each unit in a unique way but others want to so this is a mixed bag.
The arms are not that bad, the legs are. I think the seams are in a space that can at least be painted to look they they are part of the actual mini with all those ridges on the legs. Of course that means it will not look exactly like the Robotech one it you have a leg fetish. I really hope that is tweaked a bit but I think we are stuck with it as is.
Shows the seams on the torso pretty well - the paint they have on the missile bays and the red center is masking the seams there, but you can see the seams running into those areas.
@Morgan: Yeah, I posted 1-3 months mainly because we have no idea how palladium will handle the shipping from their location once they get the stuff. IIRC the EU stuff is supposed to be shipped from china to a middle man there but I'm not sure of the rest of the world. I'm also unsure of what extra staffing beyond just 1-2 ND guys and a couple of volunteers that are only going to stick around for a few days at most that Palladium will bring in. With Palladium and how this KS was run post-fundraising, common sense is out the window and anything is possible unfortunately.
The above is all off the update pics and from the KS.
Rigeld, the inside of the arm seam is there but on a mini that size I don't think it's a major problem as it is not highly visible when the mini is on the table. The Leg ones are much more visible and those are ones that I don't like. The top seam from the torso you will notice you see on the "head" if you zoom in but not on the center torso piece. If I have to zoom in that much to see it then I personally don't think it will be a major issue. Again the leg seams will be the most visible and noticeable on the table unless someone picks up you mini and holds it at eye level a foot from his face most of the other details will not come out. Although the side torsos also have seams. I think the torsos and feet are the greatest worries on this mini.
I didn't see the center torso one until you pointed it out. Still, if the Spartan is my only worry I can get live with it. Doesn't mean I'd be a happy camper, but I'm paying $2 each, I don't care what the retail on these will be.
That's nice. I guess they'll make proper 8 dollar RRP miniature molds for the people who didn't get it on the KS and have to pay actual RRP for these figures. Oh wait...no, they're still getting the same thing and paying about 8 bucks per figure
Sining you can take it as you will but I have things to pay for and a family and life outside of gaming and I would have probably only bought the main set for the retail price and nothing more. So the price is not a slam on PB or the quality as you would twist it to but a simple fact that $10+ per mini like we pay nowadays for Battletech stuff or GW stuff is outside my price range as I have more important things to pay for as I am sure you do.
Yeah, the "we only paid a couple bucks each" thing is great for the 5k backers. It's terribly short sighted in terms of the potential longevity of the game.
Non-backers should be looking at us with envy because we got an incredible deal on awesome figures, not because they're weighing out paying 2-6 times as much for the same stuff, and are struggling to justify the cost. Just because it's disposable income doesn't mean it's limitless.
It's a shame the skirmish rules are essentially a footnote. I suspect that even if the game struggles, a strong small scale skirmish version might hold higher appeal based on the reduced barriers to entry (lower cost, fewer models to build/paint, cheaper to expand into the expansions when a single box or two is all one would need, etc).
Fruit, don't take the above as directed towards you as it isn't as I do appreciate you posting it. I just don't believe anything palladium says without verifiable proof.. like.. you know.. them posting the video that makes them so happy. With the way this kickstarter has gone, the FANS will probably be the first to notice miscasts and short shots in the sprues on the video. Until then, I'm going to file this one under "BS until proven otherwise" alongside the minis construction video that we were supposed to get.
LOL no worries, I smiled, nodded, and chuckled at your comments.
Well, to be honest the rules as is are not designed for small games. The good news is that there was talk about doing skirmish level rules for things later on like the Invid Invasion stuff where tiny cyclones would suck. These rules could be opened up to use all 3 generations.
Now I don't think the minis are as bad as some profess BUT for $7-$8 per mini they are not bad at all. In fact the only real complaints are based on the seams on the Spartan, Gnerl and Tomahawk. The Spartan's worst seams are on the legs. The problem is everyone is going to want to use Tomahawks because they kick some serious butt. The production pic looked much better with much tighter seams but they are still there. Problem is making the seams dissapear with thick paint because a wash will bring them right out if they are not done right. If only the seams had been placed in other spots or the detail reduced some to ensure a reduced parts count but if they did that they would have been screamed at for low detail. I think this was a catch 22 situation for them. Personally I would have preferred less detail and lower parts count but then these would not be "mouth watering" with detail.
Mike1975 wrote: Well, to be honest the rules as is are not designed for small games. The good news is that there was talk about doing skirmish level rules for things later on like the Invid Invasion stuff where tiny cyclones would suck. These rules could be opened up to use all 3 generations.
Well, I guess you can add one more thing to the pack of lies told to me when I was backing the project. I bought it specifically for the skirmish gaming they said would be one of the two types of gameplay included. They stressed it multiple times right up until the KS ended and we were locked in.
The skirmish rules are the same as the regular ones, you just play with squads and are not locked into using Squadrons with support and elite cards. So if you think that you had 2 sets of rules in the book you were mistaken. Basically instead of using one squadron with 0-2 support and 0-1 elites you can use support and elite cards by themselves in a skirmish game. The rules are basically the same. I will be sharing some character creation rules with you all once things come out so that you can use characters in skirmish games for each unit to make it more fun.
I never thought there would be a separate set of rules other than for army construction. I just expect there to be a fun and useful set of rules that scale well down to skirmish gaming because that is what I was sold. I'm just responding to your post where you say that "the rules as is are not designed for small games". That is the opposite of what they told us during the crowdfunding. I take what you say as a fallible opinion but you obviously have more info to base it on seeing as how you have the final approval finalized^3 version of the rules from back in December.
I have a much newer set now. The skirmish rules are basically a paragraph or two outlining what I stated above and changes how you can organize your forces, basic rules are unchanged.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Sorry if you missed it but I stated that a few times a while back
Mike1975 wrote: Problem is making the seams dissapear with thick paint because a wash will bring them right out if they are not done right. If only the seams had been placed in other spots or the detail reduced some to ensure a reduced parts count but if they did that they would have been screamed at for low detail. I think this was a catch 22 situation for them. Personally I would have preferred less detail and lower parts count but then these would not be "mouth watering" with detail.
Well the other problem is that any paint thick enough to mask the seams will also risk masking some of that 'mouth watering detail' as well, defeating the whole supposed purpose of the high parts count in the first place. Note: not that I'm giving credence to that little excuse of theirs, but it is at odds with their desired goals. If we accept their premise, and the reality is solved in a counter productive fashion to that premise, then son, someone done feth'd up.
And I disagree. I think it's entirely possible that they could've dialed back to, say, 90% 'mouth wateringness' on the detail and trimmed down the necessary parts a few points. Quality, Detail and Parts Count (among plenty of other things) exist on a spectrum, and it's totally possible they could've slid back on both and ended up with a stronger product overall.
Hell, I'm reminded of it every time someone tries to defend the seams. "You won't notice them on the table! What does it matter!" ... ummm, we won't notice this teeny tiny detail from 4 feet away either, so how about we go with fewer seams and slightly lesser detail/parts count, but both end up being net positives because we're still not noticing the bad stuff, and the good stuff would've needed a '6 inches away' inspection anyway.
Edit: You're allowed to share parts of the rules still, correct? Any chance you could either scan or type out that section? If it's truly that short, perhaps the exact wording will help set aside the matter once and for all? Or at the very least, fully direct our consternation where it belongs, with Palladium.
I was originally bummed that I didn't get as high a tier as I would of liked. Now I am really happy that I didn't.
I don't like that these are made like they were designed and manufactured by someone who did plastic models not miniatures. I love my Gunpla but I also have a lot more to work with as a model and there is a certain quality that is be expected when putting them together. The details and getting rid of the seams are how those who do Gunpla show their skills in putting them together and painting.
I however bought into a miniatures game with great looking miniatures, not a model kit. Splitting a part into multiple pieces does not mean you get better detail, it could but definitely not in the method they chose. There are hundreds of great miniatures out there with superb detail as 1-6 piece miniatures and still provide multiple options for posing and kit bashing. It looks more like they took the easy way out, got a good deal with older manufacturing equipment and thus are limited by the design choices. It definitely isn't what I expected or the quality that I was demo'd and shown while at conventions.
Mike1975 wrote: Hell, I'm reminded of it every time someone tries to defend the seams. "You won't notice them on the table! What does it matter!" ... ummm, we won't notice this teeny tiny detail from 4 feet away either, so how about we go with fewer seams and slightly lesser detail/parts count, but both end up being net positives because we're still not noticing the bad stuff, and the good stuff would've needed a '6 inches away' inspection anyway.
I can understand those that defend the seems to a degree. I think the issue is there is a large group of fandom when it comes to Robotech. It doesn't just consist of those that are fans or miniature gamers, it has a large audience including a good portion of those who work with models (at least given how some of the comments are). However I was a miniature gamer before I became a modelist. When I buy a plastic model I expect seams, work to cover them up, etc. I backed this as a miniatures gamer and I shouldn't have to deal with seams or spending hours cleaning up a miniature to cover up the poor design choices. A little trimming of flash, a little sanding sure... but not to the level where I have to break out my Gunpla skills and techniques.
Mike1975 wrote: I have a much newer set now. The skirmish rules are basically a paragraph or two outlining what I stated above and changes how you can organize your forces, basic rules are unchanged.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Sorry if you missed it but I stated that a few times a while back
Yeah, I missed it. So did they ever add the VF-1J as a support so you can play Vermillion squadron in the skirmish rules?
Mike1975 wrote: Problem is making the seams dissapear with thick paint because a wash will bring them right out if they are not done right. If only the seams had been placed in other spots or the detail reduced some to ensure a reduced parts count but if they did that they would have been screamed at for low detail. I think this was a catch 22 situation for them. Personally I would have preferred less detail and lower parts count but then these would not be "mouth watering" with detail.
Well the other problem is that any paint thick enough to mask the seams will also risk masking some of that 'mouth watering detail' as well, defeating the whole supposed purpose of the high parts count in the first place. Note: not that I'm giving credence to that little excuse of theirs, but it is at odds with their desired goals. If we accept their premise, and the reality is solved in a counter productive fashion to that premise, then son, someone done feth'd up.
And I disagree. I think it's entirely possible that they could've dialed back to, say, 90% 'mouth wateringness' on the detail and trimmed down the necessary parts a few points. Quality, Detail and Parts Count (among plenty of other things) exist on a spectrum, and it's totally possible they could've slid back on both and ended up with a stronger product overall.
Hell, I'm reminded of it every time someone tries to defend the seams. "You won't notice them on the table! What does it matter!" ... ummm, we won't notice this teeny tiny detail from 4 feet away either, so how about we go with fewer seams and slightly lesser detail/parts count, but both end up being net positives because we're still not noticing the bad stuff, and the good stuff would've needed a '6 inches away' inspection anyway.
Edit: You're allowed to share parts of the rules still, correct? Any chance you could either scan or type out that section? If it's truly that short, perhaps the exact wording will help set aside the matter once and for all? Or at the very least, fully direct our consternation where it belongs, with Palladium.
Skirmish games use the Standard Scenarios and are intended to be played with small forces. The set up for a skirmish game is performed in the normal way outlined earlier in these rules, except for the forces used. Instead of Faction Cards, Core Force Cards or points, each player simply chooses a single Support Card or Special Card and uses those mecha. Normally it will best of the two cards chosen cost close to the same amount of points. Mecha with the Life is Cheap special ability do not have that ability in skirmish games. Some sample skirmish squadrons that could face off against each other are:
1 VF-1S VS. 2 Nousjadeul-Ger
2 VF-1As VS. 6 Regults
2 Tomahawks VS. 3 Gnerls
I'm pretty sure I typed this up before but here it is.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I also wholeheartedly agree that a bit less detail and a lot less parts and even poseability would have been great in my book.
Warboss, I did mention it. I mentioned a lot of other things that were not always taken into account. There are no single VF-1J's on a support card or special card.
Mike1975 wrote: Skirmish games use the Standard Scenarios and are intended to be played with small forces. The set up for a skirmish game is performed in the normal way outlined earlier in these rules, except for the forces used. Instead of Faction Cards, Core Force Cards or points, each player simply chooses a single Support Card or Special Card and uses those mecha. Normally it will best of the two cards chosen cost close to the same amount of points. Mecha with the Life is Cheap special ability do not have that ability in skirmish games. Some sample skirmish squadrons that could face off against each other are:
1 VF-1S VS. 2 Nousjadeul-Ger
2 VF-1As VS. 6 Regults
2 Tomahawks VS. 3 Gnerls
I'm pretty sure I typed this up before but here it is.
Yeah, that's not so much "skirmish rules" as it is "demo rules". Skirmish rules would try to retain the back and forth activation nature of the full sized game, and offer alternate rules to maintain tactical complexity rather than just be the big game at a smaller force scale.
Mike1975 wrote: There are no single VF-1J's on a support card or special card.
That is disappointing along with the watered down skirmish rules. It would have been nice to be able to play the skirmish sized squadron from the anime as well as have official rules for smaller games beyond just a single card. Oh well, I guess I can just take the palladium RPG route and "house rule" yet another game right out of the box to get what I was supposed to be sold. I'll have to figure out a cost for a VF-1J and use support/special cards as well as the points as long as I have my opponent's permission as with all house rules. In the end, I don't think it'll be that big of an issue seeing as how I know of only two people who went in on the kickstarter and the rest of the Battletech crowd consider it to be a good-natured long-running joke to ask me about every time they see me since I tried to convince them to get in on it. Also, there is also x-wing for smaller space combat games although i don't think it would work well for terrestrial combat.
Actually this gives me an idea. I'll play out a few skirmish games for my next couple Demo games. I won't need a large surface and could set it up quickly. Any suggestions?
Doing more detailed skirmish rules, while I think it was a ball they dropped, would have required them to make a lot more of the force cards for units like the VF-1J. I don't plan on doing any skirmish games at all myself as a small squadron on squadron game only take 20 minutes.
Either way, for me personally, I plan on sharing costs for units individually from my spreadsheet so that players can make their own games up and use what they want much like a game of Alpha Strike. It will also allow players to make "Frankenmecha" or use Battletech minis in the game and figure out their points costs.
vitae_drinker wrote: Too bad they just don't RELEASE THE RULES as a PDF so we can all see that.
Not releasing rules (or at the least a basic set for demo/testing it out at the very least) for a game says one thing to me: our rules suck.
The thing is, the beta rules had flaws, and were quite a bit simplistic IMO, but seemed reasonably solid for what it was attempting to be.
The worst part about them not showing us earlier, is that they could have had another 5000+ spelling/grammar/consistency/loophole editors. All they have to say is "We're not going to change the way the rules work", and you'll get some grumbling from some people about how Hover should work this way or that, but for the most part, you get a relatively sleek rules set.
Now, if there are any spelling/grammar/consistency/loophole issues, they're just going to get slammed for it.
And all because PB and/or HG are Luddites in the modern world. There's NO valid reason why a PDF couldn't have been done. The "no artwork" thing was nonsense, but even so, stripping out, or blacking out the pictures and fluff is NOT difficult. And would have given people stuff to be excited about.
Unless they truly suck, at which point, they're STILL going to cop flak for it. They're just delaying it.
I agree completely Morgan. I've already got a list of "Advanced Rules" for them to add later on that did not really slow things down in my mind but added more detail and realism. Problem is some want a really super fast playing game and others want more detail. I think having it on the fast side and then adding in more later is a good move that I've been pushing with them. Personally I want more detail.
I am not happy with the character creation or the hand to hand rules and already have alternatives for both written up. I also have an alternative for the Anti-Missile rules. The ones the have are not bad but they have 2 flaws in my view, better units do not have a better chance to shoot down missiles and they do not work the way I think they should when you use Anti-Missile against missiles with the Blast trait.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
vitae_drinker wrote: How about a video of you flipping through the rulebook with the camera focused onthe page so we can see the rules for ourselves?
I would if this was not specifically prohibited to share video of any printed materials from PB, at least in my NDA. I beleive Tom Roache was allowed since the pics he shared were low resolution and you could not pic out and read anything from him flipping through them.
Mike1975 wrote: There are no single VF-1J's on a support card or special card.
That is disappointing along with the watered down skirmish rules. It would have been nice to be able to play the skirmish sized squadron from the anime as well as have official rules for smaller games beyond just a single card. Oh well, I guess I can just take the palladium RPG route and "house rule" yet another game right out of the box to get what I was supposed to be sold. I'll have to figure out a cost for a VF-1J and use support/special cards as well as the points as long as I have my opponent's permission as with all house rules. In the end, I don't think it'll be that big of an issue seeing as how I know of only two people who went in on the kickstarter and the rest of the Battletech crowd consider it to be a good-natured long-running joke to ask me about every time they see me since I tried to convince them to get in on it. Also, there is also x-wing for smaller space combat games although i don't think it would work well for terrestrial combat.
I'll have points for each unit and stat cards made up for you, don't sweat it. I've already converted many Star Wars units to Tactics and can readily do more.
Mike1975 wrote: Skirmish games use the Standard Scenarios and are intended to be played with small forces. The set up for a skirmish game is performed in the normal way outlined earlier in these rules, except for the forces used. Instead of Faction Cards, Core Force Cards or points, each player simply chooses a single Support Card or Special Card and uses those mecha. Normally it will best of the two cards chosen cost close to the same amount of points. Mecha with the Life is Cheap special ability do not have that ability in skirmish games.
I'm pretty sure I typed this up before but here it is.
Yeah, these are similar to the ones we debated back and forth for a couple pages. I'm too lazy to go find and compare the posts, but I'm pretty sure you paraphrased them previously. Don't recall the "as outlined in these rules earlier" type verbiage that stands out now.
Also, they're terrible. They even glance at why they're bad, and then go ahead and end up bad anyway.
And ignoring Life is Cheap seems incredibly arbitrary and stupid.
So, in a 150 point game, I can play with a VT squad (80 points) and a Destroid Squad (one of the 60 point ones): 140 points, 8 figures: 10 Command Points (I think, based on the J having Leadership 2?). My opponent has 2 Battlepod squads: 24 Battlepods: 0 Command points. This is supposed to be a balanced fight, within some acceptable margin of error.
We decide to play a skirmish. I pick 2 VT support cards: technically 80 points but we're ignoring those, 4 VTs, 4 command points. My opponent has 2 Battle Pods support cards (technically 70 points): 12 Battlepods: 12 command points.
Now, what about characters? Can they not be used in Skirmishes? Guess Warboss doubly can't play with Vermillion squadron; just a 1S and two 1A's! What about card upgrades? Can't be used? The Skirmish game is the perfect place to begin teaching people these concepts and of weighing out the benefits/costs of using characters or not, using upgrades or not, sacrificing the quality of a card or an entire unit to utilize one, the other, or both, etc.
Holy. Gak. What. The. Feth.
I cannot get my mind around how Command Points are supposed to be a super valuable resource, and yet units that don't get any in large scale games end up drowning in them in small scale games. If 2 VTs versus 6 battlepods is that uneven a fight that they need to disregard a balancing choice so badly, there is potentially something seriously wrong here.
I'd love to see their reasoning as to why the skirmish game can't just use the base games rules, POINTS INCLUDED, except you use Support cards instead of Squad cards, and Specials have to be added to a support instead of a squad. Like a full game, players pick an arbitrary point total (100? 50? Whatever) that they feel they'll enjoy/have time to play out, and build a force from that. That's way easier, especially since they note "oh, you should totally pick support cards that are roughly the same cost". And how would we pick that out? BY DECLARING ROUGHLY WHAT POINTS THEY SHOULD BE OH MY GOD IT'S ALL COMING BACK TO ME NOW.
Now, before I go too far off the reservation, thank you for sharing that with us, Mike.
They're terrible. I sincerely hope that the 300'ish point rules are immeasurably tighter (AGAIN FROM THE BOX), because if I have to do their bloody homework again, I'm going to be a very unhappy camper.
Edit: as was referenced before, I can play a "skirmish" game of X-Wing just fine. 40 points to build your force; go. 1-3 ships per side, choices on ship, pilot, upgrades, missiles, pilot enhancements, modifications and others could lead to hundreds (if not thousands) of possible combinations. Hell, even 25 points could be interesting, with 1-2 ships per side, and a very tough choice on whether or not to go with 1 heavily loaded ship, or 2 baseline ships with no upgrades.
The game was NEVER planned to have a skirmish mode. It was added to include a small group of Backers that wanted a skirmish game so PB promised added rules for one.
Small games with one squadron each are simple enough to teach basic rules.
Skirmish games in my mind should have more detail for each unit otherwise they are no fun at all since each unit should have more value to the player and dies too quickly in small skirmish games. The rules are designed to have players use command points in a tactical manner. Using them in skirmish mode changes this balance.
The idea that the game would have skirmish rules that can be used to teach the game is diametrically opposed to the PB point of view that this game is simple and fast enough that a simple squadron on squadron game is enough to teach the basics (Key Point here for you Forar, you may not agree but this is what I personally think PB thinks about skirmish rules)
Also I suggested that you have Battlepods generate 2 Command Point for every 2 pods since 12 points for 12 pods also seems extreme to me. I was basically ignored.
That being said I plan on releasing point values and the calculations that I used soon so that conversions can be made and people can use any combination of units that they prefer instead of being locked into what is on a force card. It will also allow conversions from Mekton, Battletech, and others to Tactics. This might eat into Tactics minis sales by the more budget inclined people who want to use other minis that they already have but that is my plan regardless.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Again, would skirmish rules be any better if they said use 100 points or 50 points per side?
They already say that "Normally it will best of the two cards chosen cost close to the same amount of points."
Mike1975 wrote: The game was NEVER planned to have a skirmish mode. It was added to include a small group of Backers that wanted a skirmish game so PB promised added rules for one.
That's kinda the point, and the problem. We were promised an alternate rules set (skirmish mode), and then given nothing. Seriously, they could have just said "Skirmish is any game 50pts or less, and can purchase Support and Special cards without prerequisites", and been several lines less. While I never expected them to be close to as significant as the core rules, if what you've shown ends up in the final rules set, I can't see how that's anything but a slap in the face to those backers who asked for it.
MIKE, THE POINT TOTAL DOESN'T NEED TO BE SET BY PALLADIUM. WE WENT OVER THIS. THE PLAYERS COULD PICK ONE JUST FINE, AS THEY WILL FOR "NORMAL" GAMES.
Damnit man, we went over this.
How will the two players know that they're using roughly the same amount of points? By setting a points total.
That's what I meant by 'they even glance at it'. If the players are going to be 'balancing' things somewhat from the start, why not just use a fething points total in the first place? "The points rules aren't used for skirmishes, but you should use them to vaguely balance the fight being played out".
And apparently no characters? And no unit upgrades? Why not?
Also; bullgak, re: 'it was never meant to be played as a skirmish"
From the RRTKS front page:
Robotech® RPG Tactics™ is a battle game in which players build armies of multiple squadrons of mecha to fight it out in scenario driven, objective based game play. Depending on the faction, and their choice of mecha, a player's army may include anywhere from 2 game pieces to as many as you desire! The rules are scalable from small skirmishes to mass combat with hundreds per side.
From the news page;
Scalable from small squad skirmishes to mass battles.
From the original announcement page:
-Two or more players can engage in small squad skirmishes or scale up to massive battles.
-Rules are scalable from skirmishes to mass combat with dozens, even hundreds, of opponents on both sides.
- Ninja Division and all of us believe we have a solid set of rules that captures the action and capabilities of the TV show combined with fast game play and scalability from skirmish battles to mass combat. Fun, fun, fun.
That's not 'something they added after the fact'. They volunteered that option themselves, and any claim otherwise is a flat out lie.
The game was NEVER planned to have a skirmish mode. It was added to include a small group of Backers that wanted a skirmish game so PB promised added rules for one.
bs. Complete and utter bs. The two modes of play are even mentioned in the intro video available day 1 first second of the kickstarter. Kevin S. also mentions skirmish gaming on the MTV interview whose part 1 was posted in the first week of the KS so was obviously conducted prior to that. In your zeal to defend this, you've reversed the cause and effect. Skirmish gaming was promised and backers just wanted palladium to follow through on that promise. Sorry, Mike, but on this one you are completely and utterly wrong.
edit: Ninja'd by forar who provided ADDITIONAL info that completely disproves the above. Mike could theoretically claim that the front page was changed during the kickstarter to accomodate backer requests but he can't say that about the video that has been there since the first second of the KS.
So, after 15+ months (plus the pre-KS development time), the skirmish rules are a badly worded, badly thought out, paragraph and three examples. Glad to see those 16 hour days, 6 day weeks, are paying off.
Morgan Vening wrote: So, after 15+ months (plus the pre-KS development time), the skirmish rules are a badly worded, badly thought out, paragraph and three examples. Glad to see those 16 hour days, 6 day weeks, are paying off.
Mike1975 wrote: The game was NEVER planned to have a skirmish mode. It was added to include a small group of Backers that wanted a skirmish game so PB promised added rules for one.
That's kinda the point, and the problem. We were promised an alternate rules set (skirmish mode), and then given nothing. Seriously, they could have just said "Skirmish is any game 50pts or less, and can purchase Support and Special cards without prerequisites", and been several lines less. While I never expected them to be close to as significant as the core rules, if what you've shown ends up in the final rules set, I can't see how that's anything but a slap in the face to those backers who asked for it.
I wish that were the case bu we were promised that the game would have skirmish/small scale rules, not an alternate rules set. I plan on making my own regardless.
MIKE, THE POINT TOTAL DOESN'T NEED TO BE SET BY PALLADIUM. WE WENT OVER THIS. THE PLAYERS COULD PICK ONE JUST FINE, AS THEY WILL FOR "NORMAL" GAMES.
Damnit man, we went over this.
How will the two players know that they're using roughly the same amount of points? By setting a points total.
That's what I meant by 'they even glance at it'. If the players are going to be 'balancing' things somewhat from the start, why not just use a fething points total in the first place? "The points rules aren't used for skirmishes, but you should use them to vaguely balance the fight being played out".
And apparently no characters? And no unit upgrades? Why not?
Also; bullgak, re: 'it was never meant to be played as a skirmish"
From the RRTKS front page:
Robotech® RPG Tactics™ is a battle game in which players build armies of multiple squadrons of mecha to fight it out in scenario driven, objective based game play. Depending on the faction, and their choice of mecha, a player's army may include anywhere from 2 game pieces to as many as you desire! The rules are scalable from small skirmishes to mass combat with hundreds per side.
From the news page;
Scalable from small squad skirmishes to mass battles.
From the original announcement page:
-Two or more players can engage in small squad skirmishes or scale up to massive battles.
-Rules are scalable from skirmishes to mass combat with dozens, even hundreds, of opponents on both sides.
- Ninja Division and all of us believe we have a solid set of rules that captures the action and capabilities of the TV show combined with fast game play and scalability from skirmish battles to mass combat. Fun, fun, fun.
That's not 'something they added after the fact'. They volunteered that option themselves, and any claim otherwise is a flat out lie.
As I said, from the rules, "Normally it will best of the two cards chosen cost close to the same amount of points." The only difference I see you are suggesting is to say that players should choose X-100 points and choose support and elite cards to match that total or something similar.
The game was NEVER planned to have a skirmish mode. It was added to include a small group of Backers that wanted a skirmish game so PB promised added rules for one.
bs. Complete and utter bs. The two modes of play are even mentioned in the intro video available day 1 first second of the kickstarter. Kevin S. also mentions skirmish gaming on the MTV interview whose part 1 was posted in the first week of the KS so was obviously conducted prior to that. In your zeal to defend this, you've reversed the cause and effect. Skirmish gaming was promised and backers just wanted palladium to follow through on that promise. Sorry, Mike, but on this one you are completely and utterly wrong.
edit: Ninja'd by forar who provided ADDITIONAL info that completely disproves the above. Mike could theoretically claim that the front page was changed during the kickstarter to accomodate backer requests but he can't say that about the video that has been there since the first second of the KS.
I disagree, the game does allow for small groups of units to fight. The rules may not be what we wanted. I was surprised myself that that was all that they had as far as skirmish rules and did mention it. I can suggest changes and give reasoning but this is their horse to run the race with.
New thread rule... the only joke allowed in this thread is the Kickstarter itself? That should clear up some confusion.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The entirely predictable gak has met the fan. I called it months ago. Palladium will indeed be selling our stuff at gencon while backers who paid OVER A YEAR AGO wait till they get around to it. Not to worry, they'll have a whole two people working on it while the boss is away! I'm sure the legendary 16 hour work days will double when no one is around to tell! Heck, they might even get out packages to more than the precious fan friend circle during gencon! And then when they come back they'll have volunteers!
" Only a few hundred people will get the product before our highly valued Kickstarter supporters at Gen Con. We will not be offering Kickstarter exclusives at Gen Con."
If you were offering them there, idiots, then they wouldn't be kickstarter exclusives, now would they??!? Do they want a special thanks for not breaking yet another promise they made while attempting to collect money?
● Sorry, we can not possibly bring your order with us to Gen Con. This is a much bigger, bulkier product than books. To bring even 100 full orders would fill up several pallets worth of space we just don’t have at our booth.
● If you are a backer and attending Gen Con Indy, please visit Palladium Books at Booth #1223 to see what will be coming to you in a few weeks (in some cases, possibly even days after you get home), and so that we can shake your hand and thank you personally for making this outstanding product possible. We could not have done it without you. All of us at Palladium Books, Ninja Division, Harmony Gold USA, and every Robotech® fan who enjoys this product owes you a debt of gratitude. Take a bow. Thank you for your understanding and patience.
An excellent observation from the update which currently has 18 likes (WTF?):
I love this part
● Sorry, we can not possibly bring your order with us to Gen Con. This is a much bigger, bulkier product than books. To bring even 100 full orders would fill up several pallets worth of space we just don’t have at our booth.
But they have room for SEVERAL HUNDRED orders they intend to bring to sell to non-contributors.
What about the people who's orders will now need to be bumped to the next container because they took stuff from the first one to sell to non-contributors?
Maybe they can ship us all a bottle of Robotech approved anal lube to help ease the pain.
Part them cheeks for Uncle Kev cause you're about to get fethed
PLEASE NOTE: We do plan to bring a selection of Robotech® RPG Tactics™ Wave One product for display and sale at Gen Con Indy. I know that will disappoint some of our Kickstarter supporters, but it is vital to successfully kickoff the launch of this exciting new product line. Gen Con Indy is the San Diego Comic Con of gaming. Not only are there tens of thousands of gamers, but a lot of media. We NEED it to be there, and for sale, to create buzz and take advantage of the excitement that will generate. I hope our backers understand this. We appreciate you, but we also need to do what’s right for the future of this product line. That will benefit you and all Robotech® fans for years to come.
Please keep in mind the following:
● Only a few hundred people will get the product before our highly valued Kickstarter supporters at Gen Con. We will not be offering Kickstarter exclusives at Gen Con.
● Palladium will begin shipping to Kickstarter supporters before we leave for Gen Con and will continue to ship while the bulk of us are at Gen Con.
● REMEMBER, there are more than 5,200 Kickstarter supporters, almost all of whom have ordered many add-ons, so it will take us several weeks to ship ‘em all out, no matter what we do.
● Sorry, we can not possibly bring your order with us to Gen Con. This is a much bigger, bulkier product than books. To bring even 100 full orders would fill up several pallets worth of space we just don’t have at our booth.
● If you are a backer and attending Gen Con Indy, please visit Palladium Books at Booth #1223 to see what will be coming to you in a few weeks (in some cases, possibly even days after you get home), and so that we can shake your hand and thank you personally for making this outstanding product possible. We could not have done it without you. All of us at Palladium Books, Ninja Division, Harmony Gold USA, and every Robotech® fan who enjoys this product owes you a debt of gratitude. Take a bow. Thank you for your understanding and patience.
● If you are a backer and attending Gen Con Indy, please visit Palladium Books at Booth #1223 to see what will be coming to you in a few weeks (in some cases, possibly even days after you get home), and so that we can shake your hand and thank you personally for making this outstanding product possible. We could not have done it without you. All of us at Palladium Books, Ninja Division, Harmony Gold USA, and every Robotech® fan who enjoys this product owes you a debt of gratitude. Take a bow. Thank you for your understanding and patience.
.... I detect just a smidgen of hubris there.... Just a little, mind....
Eldarain wrote: An excellent observation from the update which currently has 18 likes (WTF?):
Yeah, as if it isn't bad enough that most folks at the companies involved aren't already ass up and mouth-parts down intp the sand. And that might be generous given only an occasional browse through this thread.
Because you just know there will be some of those same "thumbs always up" folks right there at the booth bowing and scraping in unison.
We really don't need to wonder when the aliens will visit - they're already here and amongst us. No matter how much of an optimist you might be, "do good and care not to whom" works both ways.
● If you are a backer and attending Gen Con Indy, please visit Palladium Books at Booth #1223 to see what will be coming to you in a few weeks (in some cases, possibly even days after you get home), and so that we can shake your hand and thank you personally for making this outstanding product possible. We could not have done it without you. All of us at Palladium Books, Ninja Division, Harmony Gold USA, and every Robotech® fan who enjoys this product owes you a debt of gratitude. Take a bow. Thank you for your understanding and patience.
.... I detect just a smidgen of hubris there.... Just a little, mind....
_
In their defense, taking a bow does put backers in the proper position for what they're figuratively doing to us.
Mike1975 wrote: As I said, from the rules, "Normally it will best of the two cards chosen cost close to the same amount of points." The only difference I see you are suggesting is to say that players should choose X-100 points and choose support and elite cards to match that total or something similar.
Damnit Mike, how will the player know that the two cards chosen will be close to the same amount of points?!? BY PICKING A POINTS LEVEL!
"I picked 2 Glaugs."
"I picked 2 YF-4 support cards."
".... ooops. Well, I'm fethed. Shall we pick again?"
Without even a vague points cost, building forces becomes a matter of guessing. It doesn't need to be this fething hard!
And you still haven't answered my question about characters and unit upgrades. Apparently those don't exist in the skirmish game? That's a shame, they'd be pretty awesome in it.
I disagree, the game does allow for small groups of units to fight. The rules may not be what we wanted. I was surprised myself that that was all that they had as far as skirmish rules and did mention it. I can suggest changes and give reasoning but this is their horse to run the race with.
You flat out said that it hadn't been designed with Skirmish level games in mind. We provided evidence that they claimed it was. It might not have been, but that just makes it a flat out lie. Suggesting changes doesn't do squat; the books are (supposedly) printing as we speak. That ship has sailed. If you thought they weren't doing a skirmish, you were wrong. If they claimed they weren't bothering much with the skirmish level gameplay, then they fethed up and hoped nobody would notice. If they sincerely thought nobody cared about skirmish level play, then they lied. This is hard evidence, right here. We didn't make Palladium say they'd support small ("2 figures on a side") gameplay. And at over a year since the campaign ended, it's a bit late for them to start trying to walk that back.
I think the CAV system would work pretty well for this and it plays well at small levels.
I'll just have to stat up valks and battlepods. I've been meaning to play some more Warlord recently anyways, looks like I'll be doing it in a few(hah!) months with mecha instead of fantasy.
In other news, feth 'em. I'm getting a decent deal at the end of the day but with such a sour taste in my mouth that there's not a chance of me doing business with PB or ND again, no matter how "mouth-watering" it may be.
Mike1975 wrote: I have a much newer set now. The skirmish rules are basically a paragraph or two outlining what I stated above and changes how you can organize your forces, basic rules are unchanged.
Well, that's the thing... those are not skirmish rules. That's skirmish army creation rules. There's more to a skirmish-level game than list creation, you know.
Read through the KS comments.... Did anyone else notice that like 75%+ of the positive/supportive comments were from some variation of a "Brian?" Surely they wouldn't stoop so low as to ask a Stockholm syndrome Palladium fan to post support...and then pick the guy who uses the same name every time?
There a super fan in Australia who's desperately trying to get published. It might be him. Funny I thought the same.
It really blows that Kevin the shyster is breaking his contract with us backers by once again allowing non backers acces to rt minis. Even the fans on FB are turning on PB and some haven't bothered to post.
Sining wrote:It's 99% negative and 1 % positive. I wonder how Kevin's going to spin this one
Forar wrote:Oh god. Despite my better judgement, I spent an extra half an hour catching up on the clusterfeth in the update comments.
Wow.
This one is going to go places.
Nah, the same predictable thing will happen as always. Kevin and friends will just label them as haters and/or non-customers and/or a vocal minority to marginalize the response regardless of how overwhelming it is.
Mike1975 wrote: As I said, from the rules, "Normally it will best of the two cards chosen cost close to the same amount of points." The only difference I see you are suggesting is to say that players should choose X-100 points and choose support and elite cards to match that total or something similar.
Damnit Mike, how will the player know that the two cards chosen will be close to the same amount of points?!? BY PICKING A POINTS LEVEL!
"I picked 2 Glaugs."
"I picked 2 YF-4 support cards."
".... ooops. Well, I'm fethed. Shall we pick again?"
Without even a vague points cost, building forces becomes a matter of guessing. It doesn't need to be this fething hard!
And you still haven't answered my question about characters and unit upgrades. Apparently those don't exist in the skirmish game? That's a shame, they'd be pretty awesome in it.
I disagree, the game does allow for small groups of units to fight. The rules may not be what we wanted. I was surprised myself that that was all that they had as far as skirmish rules and did mention it. I can suggest changes and give reasoning but this is their horse to run the race with.
You flat out said that it hadn't been designed with Skirmish level games in mind. We provided evidence that they claimed it was. It might not have been, but that just makes it a flat out lie. Suggesting changes doesn't do squat; the books are (supposedly) printing as we speak. That ship has sailed. If you thought they weren't doing a skirmish, you were wrong. If they claimed they weren't bothering much with the skirmish level gameplay, then they fethed up and hoped nobody would notice. If they sincerely thought nobody cared about skirmish level play, then they lied. This is hard evidence, right here. We didn't make Palladium say they'd support small ("2 figures on a side") gameplay. And at over a year since the campaign ended, it's a bit late for them to start trying to walk that back.
Every single card has a specific points level written on it. Every single card has the upgrades and point costs for the upgrades on them as well. You way off base if you think you just pick 2 random cards and then look at them to see how they compare pointwise. The entire reason I think your on another page here.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Having a skirmish level and having a seperate system specifically for skirmish games are 2 different things, hence why I say I don't think they had designed this from the bottom up with skirmish in mind. You CAN play with smaller skirmish level units 4-12 per side but the rules are designed for entire dquadron on entire squadron. I don't like the way skirmish was done, I offered other additional options and it was not taken into account.
Funny how as soon as they show up NMI locks the thread.
NMI is one of PB's worst problems
Automatically Appended Next Post:
wilycoyote wrote: Sad thing is that we all seen this coming and could do nothing about it.
Like watching Titanic and seeing that iceberg in the distance.
Should be fun watching the PB booth at Gencom, provided anyone is allowed to film what goes on.
Nice move KS.
I think everyone but PB saw the iceburg, just like the Titanic the captain was asleep in his cabin. The crew just hoped the ship would turn fast enough to miss but the ship was going to fast and they hit due to the ships own inertia.
Sining wrote:It's 99% negative and 1 % positive. I wonder how Kevin's going to spin this one
Forar wrote:Oh god. Despite my better judgement, I spent an extra half an hour catching up on the clusterfeth in the update comments.
Wow.
This one is going to go places.
Nah, the same predictable thing will happen as always. Kevin and friends will just label them as haters and/or non-customers and/or a vocal minority to marginalize the response regardless of how overwhelming it is.
I suppose he can call them 'haters', but if they're posting in the KS Comments section, he can't say they aren't customers!
Joking aside I have no idea how it compares with 
