So how will who gets their RTT minis first (backers who don't go to GENCon) be determined? North Americans first? North Americans only?
Is there a secret handshake?
Is there a lottery?
Is there any hope that this train wreck will ever end?
Nah, the same predictable thing will happen as always. Kevin and friends will just label them as haters and/or non-customers and/or a vocal minority to marginalize the response regardless of how overwhelming it is.
I meant in terms of backer response. Like Spartangate before it, I imagine this will amount to potentially thousands of comments.
That old saying about no publicity being bad publicity? This is bad publicity.
And, of course, Kevin finds a way to express "we're working over 9000 hours a week! I have worn my hands off to the wrist writing and there's still no finished books, its the best thing ever! gush gush!"
Please, somebody video the booth at GenCon? I'll buy a camera if I have to! Gonna be the most electrifying booth at the Con, even if you only count how many angry backers have to be tazed!
Mike1975 wrote: Every single card has a specific points level written on it. Every single card has the upgrades and point costs for the upgrades on them as well. You way off base if you think you just pick 2 random cards and then look at them to see how they compare pointwise. The entire reason I think your on another page here.
*facepalm*
Mike, how do the players know to pick similar points valued cards if they don't have a set points value to work from? Do they say "hey, let's use 2 each in the 35-40 range"? That's effectively a 80 point game.
I never said they'd be random, I said that the players need to have a baseline to work from.
And keep in mind, ideally they need to choose forces *without input from the other player*. Telling someone I'm taking a heavy Artillery Pod support card and a light Artillery Pod support card gives up a lot of information. So ideally, we need a way for players to build a small force, quickly, without the other player knowing what we're taking.
If only there were some balancing factor already present in the game. Something the players could use to arbitrarily denote how big or small the game was going to be. Something the players could use with upgrades and low power characters to offset differences in the values on their support cards.
Here's how I see it:
Player 1: "Hey, let's play a skirmish. I've gotta go in half an hour, but I'd like to try out some new ideas I've had."
Player 2: "Okay, how many points?"
Player 1: "How about 90?"
Player 2: "I'd like to try a few things too, mind if we play 100?"
Player 1: "Sure, sounds good."
Player 1 and 2 begin building their forces. P1 chooses a VT support (40 points) with an upgrade (say, 10 points), a MAC II (40 points) and has it piloted by a skilled handler (10 more points). Player 2 choose a Gnerl support card (35 points), a Glaug (20 points), a Battlepod card (35 points), and tosses a 10 point character into the Glaug to boost it up a bit.
*game begins*
Do you see? DO YOU SEE?!
Now, show me how you think a skirmish should be set up. Player 1 and 2 find themselves with another half hour to play, and.... go!
Nah, the same predictable thing will happen as always. Kevin and friends will just label them as haters and/or non-customers and/or a vocal minority to marginalize the response regardless of how overwhelming it is.
I meant in terms of backer response. Like Spartangate before it, I imagine this will amount to potentially thousands of comments.
That old saying about no publicity being bad publicity? This is bad publicity.
It doesn't matter. Despite the nerd rage, most of the angry folks will just jorel (no caps as it is a verb now) the next time around and still fork out money and turn the other cheek (whether facial or butt depends on your disposition towards this recent move). My not buying anything beyond a zent infantry pack was pretty much set with the max/miriya debacle. Macross for me is by far my favorite of the three series and I'll have enough (mediocre) minis to last me for a lifetime especially given the (lack of) interest locally in the game despite my stumping for it during the KS. If another KS for Robotech comes up, I'll pledge $1 just so I can warn off others potentially with tales about this one. I also won't be starting/maintaining a thread about it, stumping for it locally, and creating a youtube video or dakka ranking track for it like I did the last time around.
@Kendachi: No no no, wait... this could be enlightening!
@Warboss: Will people still spend money? Sure. But look at the RTA campaign. This debacle has already done them some damage. Will it prevent them from hitting their funding goal? I dunno, but it wouldn't surprise me if the bad blood simmering here will end up putting a tangible (5 or 6 figure) dent in what they could have pulled in.
Imagine in 2 years when the last RRT figures are getting ready to go. Palladium chooses to be dumb enough to try another campaign. Do you really think it'll hit 1.4m? Even if they combined series 2 and 3 (since the obvious answer is "SC is the bastard of the bunch"), imagine the nightmare their comment section will be. And not just because some spankers haven't let go; you can point out factually how badly this has gone.
They took a literal million dollar idea, and have tangibly dirtied it with their ineptitude.
You yourself point out that you'd just put in a buck to make sure people knew, wouldn't help drive the community, would warn off friends, etc, etc. Now multiply that by ten. A hundred. A thousand.
Do you really think that there won't be *any* impact from all this?
Yes, this Gencon fiasco was expected, does not mean it is acceptable, it just means we are vindicated in "taking the gloves off."
Future order of operations:
1) At some point this year we should see our main "wave 1" items which will slow down in direct proportion to volume of direct sales. They already have our money so we are back burner material, the real push is getting packages shrink wrapped for sale. Us receiving anything will be done grudgingly, think of us like those who purchased Palladium "pre-order" items on their catalogue waiting years at a time with no guarantee the product they "bought" will ever get made. Trying to drive home the point that when they have your money they pretty much figure it is theirs, product exchanged or not.
2) Never seeing "Wave 2" unless another Gencon rolls around is a distinct possibility. Figure we will be in this EXACT same position Gencon next year. So if any of us purchased anything from the possible "Wave 3" retail launch, any guesses of when you will get them?? (hint: 2016+)
3) I am waiting to see how they plan on getting money out of us for shipping that second wave, you know they do not want to pay it. This would be the point I will complain to kickstarter and anyone who would listen. I would like to go back and check all that was promised prior to the kickstarter being funded and what actually was fulfilled.
4) Lessons learned: wait for commercial retail items from here-on. White knights will cry "But other RT may not get made! We have to back them!". This is the only viable IP they have that is raking in money and getting buzz, count on their greed: backed or not, they will have to make new product or have to settle on their prior pitiful income. They admit they need to mess with the backers to keep the commercial buzz going. I just want a good long accurate record of just how fethed this project has been to serve as a warning.
So we now know, no matter what companies are involved, Palladium will behave as it always does, so there is no excuse if you back another project of theirs, right?
Mike1975 wrote: Every single card has a specific points level written on it. Every single card has the upgrades and point costs for the upgrades on them as well. You way off base if you think you just pick 2 random cards and then look at them to see how they compare pointwise. The entire reason I think your on another page here.
*facepalm*
Mike, how do the players know to pick similar points valued cards if they don't have a set points value to work from? Do they say "hey, let's use 2 each in the 35-40 range"? That's effectively a 80 point game.
I never said they'd be random, I said that the players need to have a baseline to work from.
And keep in mind, ideally they need to choose forces *without input from the other player*. Telling someone I'm taking a heavy Artillery Pod support card and a light Artillery Pod support card gives up a lot of information. So ideally, we need a way for players to build a small force, quickly, without the other player knowing what we're taking.
If only there were some balancing factor already present in the game. Something the players could use to arbitrarily denote how big or small the game was going to be. Something the players could use with upgrades and low power characters to offset differences in the values on their support cards.
Here's how I see it:
Player 1: "Hey, let's play a skirmish. I've gotta go in half an hour, but I'd like to try out some new ideas I've had."
Player 2: "Okay, how many points?"
Player 1: "How about 90?"
Player 2: "I'd like to try a few things too, mind if we play 100?"
Player 1: "Sure, sounds good."
Player 1 and 2 begin building their forces. P1 chooses a VT support (40 points) with an upgrade (say, 10 points), a MAC II (40 points) and has it piloted by a skilled handler (10 more points). Player 2 choose a Gnerl support card (35 points), a Glaug (20 points), a Battlepod card (35 points), and tosses a 10 point character into the Glaug to boost it up a bit.
*game begins*
Do you see? DO YOU SEE?!
Now, show me how you think a skirmish should be set up. Player 1 and 2 find themselves with another half hour to play, and.... go!
Um, not sure where you are going with this Forar, but that is exactly how I see them planning it out AND how I've seen it from day 1. Let's use ~X points and then off to choosing cards. My only argument is that there is no reason to say choose 50 or 55 and make a SET SPECIFIC amount in the rules because some people are too stupid to say, "hey, how about 110 points this time around?" Not sure where you mixed yourself up on this. The rules recommend a points cost balance between players. BUT if you have a new player you might want to say go ahead and choose 80 points and I'll take 60 because I know the rules and have played several times before, that's up to the players.
You yourself point out that you'd just put in a buck to make sure people knew, wouldn't help drive the community, would warn off friends, etc, etc. Now multiply that by ten. A hundred. A thousand.
Do you really think that there won't be *any* impact from all this?
Any impact? Sure, maybe 10-25% lower than what it would have reached otherwise which would be a much lower number regardless than this current KS because the next two series are much less popular. Unfortunately, most folks do not follow through on their nerdrages and instead keep jorelling along in the hopes that something will change. As for the Robotech Acadmemy kickstarter, my personal belief is that the fan hate towards Harmony Gold and their strangling of the license for the past 20 years is the reason that campaign will ultimately get "cancelled" to avoid public failure to fund. Robotech tactics public missteps will just be a drop in the bucket effect IMO. As always, YMMV.
I think everyone but PB saw the iceburg, just like the Titanic the captain was asleep in his cabin. The crew just hoped the ship would turn fast enough to miss but the ship was going to fast and they hit due to the ships own inertia.
Not sure if you can say this ship was heading anywhere "too fast".
I think everyone but PB saw the iceburg, just like the Titanic the captain was asleep in his cabin. The crew just hoped the ship would turn fast enough to miss but the ship was going to fast and they hit due to the ships own inertia.
Not sure if you can say this ship was heading anywhere "too fast".
Mike1975 wrote: Um, not sure where you are going with this Forar, but that is exactly how I see them planning it out AND how I've seen it from day 1. Let's use ~X points and then off to choosing cards. My only argument is that there is no reason to say choose 50 or 55 and make a SET SPECIFIC amount in the rules because some people are too stupid to say, "hey, how about 110 points this time around?" Not sure where you mixed yourself up on this. The rules recommend a points cost balance between players. BUT if you have a new player you might want to say go ahead and choose 80 points and I'll take 60 because I know the rules and have played several times before, that's up to the players.
...
He's screwing with me, right, guys?
The rules you quoted specifically say to ignore points values. Just pick a couple of cards! You've said this repeatedly. Now suddenly "oh yeah, no, totally use the points".
The set up for a skirmish game is performed in the normal way outlined earlier in these rules, except for the forces used. Instead of Faction Cards, Core Force Cards or points, each player simply chooses a single Support Card or Special Card and uses those mecha. Normally it will best of the two cards chosen cost close to the same amount of points.
"Instead of Faction Cards, Core Force Cards or points"
" it will best of the two cards chosen cost close to the same amount of points"
As I said in the comments section on their dumb@$$ post, they have lost not only a customer in me, but someone willing to demo the game. I have five LGSs in an easy drive's distance from me, and now when I go to those stores not only will I not demo the game, I'll warn people away from it.
Nerdrage? Maybe, but it's warranted here. Another broken promise in a long... Well not string- more like tangled rope, of broken promises.
Let's see how long it takes for Wave 2 to finally come out. Let's see who they sell that to before delivering to us.
Good job, PB. You have well and truly crapped the bed on this one.
Mike1975 wrote: Um, not sure where you are going with this Forar, but that is exactly how I see them planning it out AND how I've seen it from day 1. Let's use ~X points and then off to choosing cards. My only argument is that there is no reason to say choose 50 or 55 and make a SET SPECIFIC amount in the rules because some people are too stupid to say, "hey, how about 110 points this time around?" Not sure where you mixed yourself up on this. The rules recommend a points cost balance between players. BUT if you have a new player you might want to say go ahead and choose 80 points and I'll take 60 because I know the rules and have played several times before, that's up to the players.
...
He's screwing with me, right, guys?
The rules you quoted specifically say to ignore points values. Just pick a couple of cards! You've said this repeatedly. Now suddenly "oh yeah, no, totally use the points".
The set up for a skirmish game is performed in the normal way outlined earlier in these rules, except for the forces used. Instead of Faction Cards, Core Force Cards or points, each player simply chooses a single Support Card or Special Card and uses those mecha. Normally it will best of the two cards chosen cost close to the same amount of points.
"Instead of Faction Cards, Core Force Cards or points"
" it will best of the two cards chosen cost close to the same amount of points"
So don't use the points!
But use the points.
Holy gaksnacks.
The rules speak for themselves, I told you what they said, they "recommend" using point values but as you said they do not "require" it. I think they are badly written. I think the entire skirmish rules are badly done but we do have them. I plan on making my own.
Funny how as soon as they show up NMI locks the thread.
Yeah, and I wanted to correct the guy that said "I thought they did offer the opportunity to get a refund over a year ago."
First, I don't recall that happening, and second, even if it did, it was before any of the problems had come to light.
Unless he's being facetious and equating "refund" with "not backing".
But instead, because the thread is locked, his statement stands unchallenged.
They have never ever offered a refund.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Maybe it's because I forget the sometimes gamers are incapable of using common sense and need every detail spelled out for them because if not some idiot will come by and try to abuse the system.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also the skirmish rules are badly written, but they DO NOT say ignore points.
"Normally it will best of the two cards chosen cost close to the same amount of points."
Mike1975 wrote: Maybe it's because I forget the sometimes gamers are incapable of using common sense and need every detail spelled out for them because if not some idiot will come by and try to abuse the system.
You are getting warm Mike!
It is not typically "some idiot" it is the fine supply of people who love to read rules in about 20 different ways and live in the gray zone.
Clear rules that are reasonably tight helps mitigate those pick-up games where you find out too late your opponent can interpret "darkness" from the word "light".
I see good reason for Forar picking on this particular element:
These skirmish games are ideal for game introduction (indoctrination?) and pick-up games so need to be pretty bulletproof.
You will be playing with a possible stranger not your usual friends so negotiation should be used sparingly.
A good niche for the game is to have a robust pick-up / competitive format since it is lacking in something like 40k so could be well received by that market.
I suppose it is a little late now for any proposed changes (game manual printed yet?)
I guess we just want to brace for the inevitable house rules.
Why do I feel like the next "Hot Lead" event (Local anything goes tabletop war gaming) I will be introducing the models with rules and scenario completely custom made... really hope it does not come to that.
talivizar, problem is the skirmish rules will not do what you hope, they were poorly designed and written. PB's mindset was never that they were a need and a good tool to bring in players which is strange considering the fact you have scenarios to learn the game that are set up with Skirmish level forces. The assumption that ND and PB had made, and this is my 2 cents, is that the rules are simple enough that they are not important. I never said they were right in what they did, but very shortsighted. They would not have even made an index for the rules if we had not pointed out the need for one. For a publisher, I have been far from impressed. I'm to the point where I'm torm with working to get my "Optional and Advanced Rules" pushed for a future Tactics book with them and helping them do the 2nd and 3rd gen stuff "right" or just saying screw them and doing them myself unofficially since the influence I've had was far from waht I'd hoped.
Skirmish rules, that was my first complaint to PB, I even wrote up a "proper" set, as with many suggestions it was not taken into account.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Funny thing is that I do agree with you, I think some rules need to be very specific. Thankfully most are but there are still some that never got the clarifications I asked for.
Automatically Appended Next Post: There is a reason I've started talking about a few advanced and house rules on the FB page.
I would think instead of blaming gamers, you should blame the people who wrote such shoddy rules. There's a huge difference between 'dammit, this true LOS means I can/not see this or that' and 'hey dudes, maybe you dont even need to have points to pick your army'
No, that is a gamers problem when you play with overzealous people who take it far from being a game. There are a number of different LOS systems, NONE are perfect but each has it's good and bad. I did suggest some additions to the present system. We even spoke of them in the comments here on this site. Agreed on them, and I sent them on and the reasoning with pics and all.
LOS, has ALWAYS been an issue, choosing one version or another will not eliminate it's own innate problems. Some are better than others though. Like I said, we came up with a fix and I did make the suggestion.
Mike1975 wrote: I think the entire skirmish rules are badly done but we do have them. I plan on making my own.
Then please explain why, in gods name, are you defending them so brutally?
The game was NEVER planned to have a skirmish mode. It was added to include a small group of Backers that wanted a skirmish game so PB promised added rules for one.
Proven a false statement.
edit: removed more Skirmish stupidity discussion
But we've gone over this before and you're willfully ignoring it so I'm not going to bother explaining more.
Mike1975 wrote: I think the entire skirmish rules are badly done but we do have them. I plan on making my own.
Then please explain why, in gods name, are you defending them so brutally?
The game was NEVER planned to have a skirmish mode. It was added to include a small group of Backers that wanted a skirmish game so PB promised added rules for one.
Proven a false statement.
edit: removed more Skirmish stupidity discussion
But we've gone over this before and you're willfully ignoring it so I'm not going to bother explaining more.
Because Rigeld, the skirmish rules are but a small part, and to me an unimportant part, since if they are used AT ALL it will be in a small game or two to teach people how to play.
Gameplay is too fast and deadly to play skirmish UNLESS you add more complexity and variety. That was never promised. The core game is well done and written.
I think that the idea that skirmish rules were a part of this from the start is more backers reading what they want into what PB has told them. I've told you guys from the start that the skirmish rules are there but only a paragraph or two. People here chose to read into that what they wanted.
I think that it was pointed out that the Skirmish rules are not balanced out properly. As was pointed out above, you could have one player with 12 Battlepods and 12 Command Points and the other with 4 veritech or destroids and only 4 Command Points. I even suggested adding a rule that for battlepods in Skirmish the Zen player only gets 1 Command Point for every 2 pods. That was basically ignored even when I backed it up with reasoning. Now from what I understand ND had the rules and revisions in hand and what I gave to PB was handed to them to change all the way up until the final laying out of the book and pics began and it was all handed back to PB. That may or may not have been the truth though.
Mike1975 wrote: I'm to the point where I'm torm with working to get my "Optional and Advanced Rules" pushed for a future Tactics book with them and helping them do the 2nd and 3rd gen stuff "right" or just saying screw them and doing them myself unofficially since the influence I've had was far from waht I'd hoped.
Despite the frustration some elements you have submitted were used so think how it would have been without your assistance.
What I like to say: "You can be part of the process or have it inflicted on you." so even being a voice in the wilderness at least can give some measure of moral high-ground.
You are the more accessible of people "in the know" so it is easy to feel a target (and legitimately be one).
In the end, there better be a credit in the rule book with your name in it, I would suggest if they overlook that courtesy, you could with clear conscience say "feth you!". You might want to inquire before it goes out for printing, I hate to say I would laugh VERY hard if the lion share of credit is stamped with "Kevin".... that would be SUCH a lie.
I would not be involved (or at least soooooo later on) in the other generation stuff so your withdrawing assistance would not hurt me or many others.
It is obvious you love what you are doing (just the gaming pieces and table back that up, never mind all the other supporting material) so you would have been very upset if you did not give this an honest go.
So buck-up! Enjoy what you can! Get back into the fight or sound a proper withdrawal soldier!!!!!!
Can you stop people from posting on news on facebook after the fact? It looks like the last comment was over an hour ago and the second palladium forum thread was locked as well. They may be on information lockdown and not facing their victims... I mean... communicating with backers.
I can only control my own FB site. I can only imagine what NMI is doing on FOTM and how the PB facebook page is. Which reminds me, I wonder how the ND FB page is doing...
Mike1975 wrote: Because Rigeld, the skirmish rules are but a small part, and to me an unimportant part, since if they are used AT ALL it will be in a small game or two to teach people how to play.
That seems to be part of the problem. That because they're not important to you, they're not important. I was really looking forward to the skirmish game, over the mass battle game. Why? Because I like the characterization and gameplay of a skirmish game, over the "Bang bang, take off eight models" concept. I find mass battle games to generally be bland, unless you shrink the scale further into command and control options, which the beta rules seem to nod towards, but definitely don't embrace (models are TOO rules detailed at that point).
Mike1975 wrote: Gameplay is too fast and deadly to play skirmish UNLESS you add more complexity and variety. That was never promised. The core game is well done and written.
As others pointed out, that "never promised", that's patently false. Skirmish rules to the layman MEAN more complexity and variety. Scalable does NOT mean "use whatever points". It means the game WORKS at a variety of scale. WHFB is NOT a skirmish game, just because you're each using one formation. It's just another in a long string of broken promises, and I can't see how you're defending it.
Mike1975 wrote: I think that the idea that skirmish rules were a part of this from the start is more backers reading what they want into what PB has told them. I've told you guys from the start that the skirmish rules are there but only a paragraph or two. People here chose to read into that what they wanted.
So, people believed what they were told by the creators. Took what they said at face value. And now, it's their fault for being upset that PB completely renegged. How is that line of thought defensible?
Mike1975 wrote: I think that it was pointed out that the Skirmish rules are not balanced out properly. As was pointed out above, you could have one player with 12 Battlepods and 12 Command Points and the other with 4 veritech or destroids and only 4 Command Points. I even suggested adding a rule that for battlepods in Skirmish the Zen player only gets 1 Command Point for every 2 pods. That was basically ignored even when I backed it up with reasoning. Now from what I understand ND had the rules and revisions in hand and what I gave to PB was handed to them to change all the way up until the final laying out of the book and pics began and it was all handed back to PB. That may or may not have been the truth though.
So, the rules are essentially non-existent, not balanced properly, they disregarded your attempt to put some level of rationality to it, and you're still simultaneously claiming both that it wasn't promised/doesn't exist, AND that it does exist, we just don't like it. Again, how are you defending this, and not just going "PB lied, you're not getting skirmish rules."?
Morgan, nobody ever promised a completely seperate skirmish set of rules, they did promise you could play the game at a skirmish level with small numbers of units. There is a difference.
I did warn what the skirmish rules entailed a long time ago.
That does not mean that real skirmish rules will never be made by PB or fans though.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I also held out hope that they would be changed based on my input, they were not.
Mike, I'm sorry to have to tell you this but no one cares about fan rules. They don't care about my Heavy Gear fan rules and they don't and won't care about your Robotech ones unless they become official. If fans rules were the savior of piss poor rules and planning on the part of gaming companies, Palladium would be the top manufacturer in the industry as everyone playing their games needs to make their own. The only thing poorly thought out, written, barely edited and tunnel vision tested rules accomplish is to dig the first few few of the game's grave. No amount of fan house ruling fixes that.
It is just odd that they found the time to bolt on the largely unnecessary and unwanted detailed close combat rules but decided to skimp on the skirmish rules. I mean... who wants to recreate little known battles with two bit characters like Vermillion squadron's Rick, Max, and Ben when you can instead fight out all those kung fu wire action close combat scenes instead! Wait...huh?
Mike1975 wrote: Morgan, nobody ever promised a completely seperate skirmish set of rules, they did promise you could play the game at a skirmish level with small numbers of units. There is a difference.
They promised it would be scaleable. You can argue as long as you want that that's TECHNICALLY possible. But don't try to convince people that's what was being promised.
If they release MPA, FPA, and all remaining Wave 2 models as ABS plastic meeples* with the name stamped on the face, cut in half at the waist, cause "multiposable", you would be OK with that? Because TECHNICALLY, they're providing the miniatures they promised. Doesn't matter that it's not what was stated or implied.
* I was going to use cardboard cutouts, but they did promise multipart, multipose, ABS plastic miniatures. But then again, their promises aren't worth squat either.
They say they are only going to sell a few hundred copies. But who want o bet that if they sell out they will have more trucked in. Its only a 4 hour drive after all.
I wonder if this is a quick way for them to rise some funds. I really wonder if they can afford to ship out 5200 packages. Thats a lot of $$ and knowing there business skills im sure they didnt put any aside for that.
Morgan, I'd say find me the exact wording of when they say that skirmish rules would be made available and we could argue semantics. Again, I'm not happy with the BS Skirmish rules beccause they are pretty much a cop out, but they did put something in there. I suggested a number of changes, and was ignored politely. There is nothing more I could do at this point. I did share what the skirmish rules were a long time ago.
Stormcrow77, you forgot to add the part where they do it only because the fans wanted them to and they're only trying to make their fans happy! Of course, they'll leave out the part where the fans are Galactus Kid and NMI who also happen to be under their employ.
Mike1975 wrote: Morgan, I'd say find me the exact wording of when they say that skirmish rules would be made available and we could argue semantics. Again, I'm not happy with the BS Skirmish rules beccause they are pretty much a cop out, but they did put something in there. I suggested a number of changes, and was ignored politely. There is nothing more I could do at this point. I did share what the skirmish rules were a long time ago.
Not sure what your argument is there. Are you saying that at a hypothetical time in the future, they can release "real" skirmish rules, and that'd abrogate the issue? Again, you're using a technical point, when that's not what was implied by the promises made.
While it's not as cut and dried as I'd like, from the RRT Boxed Game page on PB's Webstore.
"Scalable from small squad skirmishes to mass battles. Can accommodate two to several players."
Again, by using your argument, if they shipped out the boxed sets without Valkyries, as long as they intend to ship out the Valkyries at some later date, at their discretion, you'ld be OK with that?
I understand you think it's unacceptableI understand you tried to fix it. I understand you shared this at the time. My point is, why are you still trying to defend it? The rules DO NOT EXIST for all intents and purposes, besides the most blatant cover-their-asses legalistic bullshyte standards. To pretend that what's there counts, in any meaningful way, is just wrong.
Again, if you take the scaleable, it it just that, we just don't like the rules for the small squad skirmishes side of things. Your argument with the Valkyries is not what I'm talking about here. We were promised scaleability, not an entire different rules set, we got it, although it is not what any of us hoped it would be. It's like buying into Heavy Gear, opening the rules and saying yuk. I just hope the Mekton KS rules turn out well. I might try those when I get the book.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, stating that we got what they said we would and not what we expected is not defending them in any way.
I suspect that none of this will be done in time for a cargo boat to get it to the USA, then to palladium by road, then to Gencon
they might (just) manage to get some stock across on a plane, but I doubt it will be much
so you'll have a few backers (of the smaller pledges) sent out and there will be 50-100 boxes at their stand at Gencon which will be dribbled out across the weekend
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: I suspect that none of this will be done in time for a cargo boat to get it to the USA, then to palladium by road, then to Gencon
they might (just) manage to get some stock across on a plane, but I doubt it will be much
so you'll have a few backers (of the smaller pledges) sent out and there will be 50-100 boxes at their stand at Gencon which will be dribbled out across the weekend
I think you are likely right, in that case they just shot themselves in the foot, BIG TIME
I think the Spartan, Tomahawk and possibly the Gnerl seams are the only major problems. I have my fingers crossed for when we have actual product in hand. They did improve after Spartangate. We can only hope there is a bit more improvement to be seen.
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: I suspect that none of this will be done in time for a cargo boat to get it to the USA, then to palladium by road, then to Gencon
they might (just) manage to get some stock across on a plane, but I doubt it will be much
so you'll have a few backers (of the smaller pledges) sent out and there will be 50-100 boxes at their stand at Gencon which will be dribbled out across the weekend
I think you are likely right, in that case they just shot themselves in the foot, BIG TIME
Again. You forgot that word at the end of the sentance. They have to have amputated above the knee by this point as the first few toes were lost on day 2 post KS with the "maybe October!" delivery date revision.
I also held out hope that they would be changed based on my input, they were not.
Mike? Did they change anything based on "your" input?
Serious question.
They made a few minor changes and reworded some rules for clarification but nothing major. I wanted a whole new Character Creation System for conversion from RPG characters and to change the HTH rules. I also had a list of some small additions like being able to fire some weapons in melee like the torso cannons on the Tomahawk for the cost of a command point but about 80-90% of what I had was not implemented. They did take down like 40 typos that I gave them so those should have been changed. I emailed them those typos in March. I had to call in person to remind them of the typos as I saw they had not all been fixed a month ago.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Mixed bag at best
Automatically Appended Next Post: When the rules come out I will post my changes
Jesus christ, what is everyone bitching about now? This thread is exasperating, its like everyone whos pledged to this kickstarter feels entitled to something other than the product you pledged for. You were promised plastic multipart miniatures and a set of rules to use them with, and that is exactly what you are getting. Both rules and model development at the time was in a premature enough state that getting lemons was a distinct possibility, you inherently accepted that risk by giving them your money. If you're unhappy with what you're receiving, deal with, as the saying goes "Buyer beware".
Personally, I'm pretty pleased with what I'm seeing. Everything could always be better, but considering how my $300-400 initial investment on this kickstarter isprobably worth closer to $500 or $600 in retail, I can't complain.
chaos0xomega wrote: Jesus christ, what is everyone bitching about now? This thread is exasperating, its like everyone whos pledged to this kickstarter feels entitled to something other than the product you pledged for. You were promised plastic multipart miniatures and a set of rules to use them with, and that is exactly what you are getting. Both rules and model development at the time was in a premature enough state that getting lemons was a distinct possibility, you inherently accepted that risk by giving them your money. If you're unhappy with what you're receiving, deal with, as the saying goes "Buyer beware".
Personally, I'm pretty pleased with what I'm seeing. Everything could always be better, but considering how my $300-400 initial investment on this kickstarter isprobably worth closer to $500 or $600 in retail, I can't complain.
You might try reading the thread. They're selling product before shipping it to backers. I'll be sure to pick up a box to show everyone how awesome and mouthwatering the models are while you wait another month to get yours.
chaos0xomega wrote: Jesus christ, what is everyone bitching about now? This thread is exasperating, its like everyone whos pledged to this kickstarter feels entitled to something other than the product you pledged for. You were promised plastic multipart miniatures and a set of rules to use them with, and that is exactly what you are getting. Both rules and model development at the time was in a premature enough state that getting lemons was a distinct possibility, you inherently accepted that risk by giving them your money. If you're unhappy with what you're receiving, deal with, as the saying goes "Buyer beware".
Personally, I'm pretty pleased with what I'm seeing. Everything could always be better, but considering how my $300-400 initial investment on this kickstarter isprobably worth closer to $500 or $600 in retail, I can't complain.
You much try reading the thread. They're selling product before shipping it to backers. I'll be sure to pick up a box to show everyone how awesome and mouthwatering the models are while you wait another month to get yours.
I'm aware, don't really care. Whoever buys it at Gencon will be spending more money than I did, and will still have to wait for the expansions.
chaos0xomega wrote: Jesus christ, what is everyone bitching about now? This thread is exasperating, its like everyone whos pledged to this kickstarter feels entitled to something other than the product you pledged for. You were promised plastic multipart miniatures and a set of rules to use them with, and that is exactly what you are getting. Both rules and model development at the time was in a premature enough state that getting lemons was a distinct possibility, you inherently accepted that risk by giving them your money. If you're unhappy with what you're receiving, deal with, as the saying goes "Buyer beware".
Personally, I'm pretty pleased with what I'm seeing. Everything could always be better, but considering how my $300-400 initial investment on this kickstarter isprobably worth closer to $500 or $600 in retail, I can't complain.
You much try reading the thread. They're selling product before shipping it to backers. I'll be sure to pick up a box to show everyone how awesome and mouthwatering the models are while you wait another month to get yours.
I'm aware, don't really care. Whoever buys it at Gencon will be spending more money than I did, and will still have to wait for the expansions.
If you don't care what you get, or when you get it, why are you bothering to read the thread at all? People have the right to complain if that's their prerogative. Others DO care that what was promised will not come to be- backers get their product first. I'm not a backer, never watched the show, and I'm gong to grab a box to resell on eBay. That upsets some people.
Supoposedly the Jotun, Armored VT, and much more from Wave 2 is approved and ready, I bet that since not all the Wave 1 stuff was approved that they probably put some of those into production. If they told the backers that though, they'd be pissed and ask why was wave 1 not ready?
I really don't read the thread, I just pop in every so often to see if theres any more news aside from whats posted on the updates, usually all I see is crying, whining, and much gnashing of teeth. I'm not going to fault them for selling product at Gencon. I don't actually see where it was ever promised that we would receive our pledges before the game hits retail... in fact most gaming kickstarters seem to hit retail pretty much simultaneously with the pledges, while obviously I would prefer that I received my stuff before someone else was able to purchase, plenty of other kickstarters in various genres have done this same sort of thing without issue. I just see it as a limited time presale options for roughly 100 or so people willing to wait in line for the opportunity. Again, its their right to do so, and as I understand it the *actual* retail release isn't going to be until after I get my stuff anyway.
It's "bitching" to vent when PB is proven to lie to their backers? Seriously?
This thread is exasperating, its like everyone whos pledged to this kickstarter feels entitled to something other than the product you pledged for. You were promised plastic multipart miniatures and a set of rules to use them with, and that is exactly what you are getting.
It was also promised that I would get those in December. No, October. No, December. No, January. No, March. No, wait - July. No, sorry - after $random_joe_off_the_street gets his copy at GenCon, despite the fact that they said - repeatedly - backers would get theirs before retail (and IMO if you're selling at retail price, it's a retail sale).
Both rules and model development at the time was in a premature enough state that getting lemons was a distinct possibility, you inherently accepted that risk by giving them your money. If you're unhappy with what you're receiving, deal with, as the saying goes "Buyer beware".
Yes, kickstarters have inherent risk. Thanks for the patronizing statement.
That doesn't mean it's okay to flat out lie to your backers, or that it's okay to accept almost $1.5 million and throw together some shoddy work and pretend you're good.
Personally, I'm pretty pleased with what I'm seeing. Everything could always be better, but considering how my $300-400 initial investment on this kickstarter isprobably worth closer to $500 or $600 in retail, I can't complain.
No, you absolutely can. I paid ~$250 into the Sedition Wars kickstarter, getting minis for way under "retail". Look at how much those are worth now. Are you sure this kickstarter can't hit the same results?
(note: I didn't pledge to resell in any case, but the comparison given was price paid vs retail)
chaos0xomega wrote: Jesus christ, what is everyone bitching about now? This thread is exasperating, its like everyone whos pledged to this kickstarter feels entitled to something other than the product you pledged for.
Something simple: we gave them money for "product" over a year ago and other people get first crack at getting their hands on them.
You were promised plastic multipart miniatures and a set of rules to use them with, and that is exactly what you are getting.
The quality of both products mentioned are showing "blemishes" to the "amazing" quality touted so there is some concern of "value".
Both rules and model development at the time was in a premature enough state that getting lemons was a distinct possibility, you inherently accepted that risk by giving them your money.
At a kickstarter everything IS premature, usually only concepts can be brought forward. It is by raising money they get to make the reality. The "within the year" of the kickstarter close was the official timeline and they have extended well past that to "get it right". The critical timeline is the model development, they still have tons of time to make sure the game is right which is showing holes: there is no real excuse for that element.
If you're unhappy with what you're receiving, deal with, as the saying goes "Buyer beware".
But you can only go so far with the trite statement of "buyer beware", YES Palladium has a bad track record, there was optimism that Ninja Division would smooth out those issues, we have found out that is not so. Also the unhappiness is with what we are NOT receiving, we still have Wave2 to wait for and I have not received a thing as of yet.
Personally, I'm pretty pleased with what I'm seeing. Everything could always be better, but considering how my $300-400 initial investment on this kickstarter is probably worth closer to $500 or $600 in retail, I can't complain.
But retail is receiving the product first, developed with your money.
They are still banking on selling the product with the rules "sight unseen".
Imagine if the rules are panned as "garbage" by the critics?
How much could they command at retail then?
What gets my knickers in a twist is that everyone is looking to get my money ahead of time with little compulsion to ensure it gets to me with some compelling benefits or "interest" on that early use of the money.
<edit> There are so many examples of companies can do this right, it is a shame further accountability cannot be enforced.
The bottom line is that the 100 (or however many) copies the sell at Gencon are already sold. That's the deal that they clearly made with their backers- You get priority over retail. The first copies are yours.
Their crap planning and bad estimates of timelines are not the backers fault in any way. They are panicked about getting the product to the market as quickly as possible. Fine, take preorders at Gencon and deliver as soon as all backer pledges are fulfilled. Easy. Cheap. Reasonable.
No one is gonna be more excited about your product than the people who pledged over a million dollars to see it made. Shafting them in the hopes that the general market will be more psyched than the backers will be pissed is just outright dumb.
I have a feeling that they've already blown through a stupid amount of the pledge money in stupid ways, and they feel they literally have to get some retail return in order to even finish the project. I will not be shocked to hear "wave 2" requiring some sort of bail-out to be released.
chaos0xomega wrote: I don't actually see where it was ever promised that we would receive our pledges before the game hits retail...
Ah, so your complaining about complaining is rooted in ignorance. Well then.. update 125 is the spot that comes to mind easiest but it was also stated multiple times before and after it. Please in the future get a clue before you decide to jump head first into the "you guys are a bunch of whiners!" insult pool.
wormwoode wrote: The bottom line is that the 100 (or however many) copies the sell at Gencon are already sold. That's the deal that they clearly made with their backers- You get priority over retail. The first copies are yours.
Their crap planning and bad estimates of timelines are not the backers fault in any way. They are panicked about getting the product to the market as quickly as possible. Fine, take preorders at Gencon and deliver as soon as all backer pledges are fulfilled. Easy. Cheap. Reasonable.
You're spot on, there. There's nothing to stop them promoting the game. And get only marginally less hype than the couple hundred boxes they'll have for sale. Remember, they had a couple of hundred of the Max/Miriya exclusives last year, and what happened? They were all sold out, mostly before the general public got a chance at them (the VIP's and other stores bought significant percentages, and a decent amount just got flipped onto EBay). So, you crap on the backers, AND the public don't really get exposed anyway.
But seriously, I just can't understand the PR behind this. This was the most predictable outcome (outrage) to the most predictable solution (do we or don't we) to the most predictable problem (Gencon or backers), in the entirety of the project. And that's a pretty high bar to clear.
And that's assuming they even get any in (unless they're airfreighting, which isn't what they said, but what's their word worth now?). So there's the possibility they've crapped on their backers for NO tangible outcome. If the container gets delayed one week, they're hosed. And the optimistic timeframe they have doesn't seem to account for most of the NORMAL variations, let alone the extra stuff (storm season, west coast industrial action). So umm... yeah. Great jobs, fellahs.
If / when they are absolutely forced to realize that they'll be unable to get any product for Gencon, anyway, I wonder if they'll claim that they "reconsidered their commitment to their backers" and "decided" not to screw them. I don't wonder if they'd be shady enough or ballsy enough, that's a given. I just wonder if they do any thinking at all about their backers as anything other than a debt they'll be forced to "get around to at some point".
wormwoode wrote: If / when they are absolutely forced to realize that they'll be unable to get any product for Gencon, anyway, I wonder if they'll claim that they "reconsidered their commitment to their backers" and "decided" not to screw them. I don't wonder if they'd be shady enough or ballsy enough, that's a given. I just wonder if they do any thinking at all about their backers as anything other than a debt they'll be forced to "get around to at some point".
"Spin" is free, it is easy to look at any given outcome and determine some kind of "win".
I expect through shear irritation they will try to get backers to write-off the Wave2 stuff. Cup half empty over here...
Rrrreported live, live, live on Network 23, where dreams come to die! Catch the wave!
(still getting used to my new avatar)
Of course they'll use that line if they don't get the shipments in time. Of course, if they don't ship out to hundreds of backers by gencon then we'll know that it is yet another lie.
As for viewing backers as a debt and nothing more, that is what they did with the Northern Gun duo of books that they crowdfunded on their site. The books were just weeks away from the printer and were delayed over a year for the first and IIRC right around two years for the second... during which time palladium had the time, money, effort, and inclination to come out with another couple of books and a half dozen of their book-style quarterly magazine. Basically, if your project was prepaid, you were at the bottom of the priority list. That same ethos has now predictably extended over to this project.
I expect through shear irritation they will try to get backers to write-off the Wave2 stuff. Cup half empty over here...
Rrrreported live, live, live on Network 23, where dreams come to die! Catch the wave!
(still getting used to my new avatar)
Me too (getting used to your new avatar that is). I might bring back my stomping jason "I want Robotech!" avatar till gencon as well but I suspect it'll just give ammo to the ignorant folks. :( As for wave two, I suspect we'll be in for the same type of suck as they "find out" just before Gencon 2015 that they'll only have time to bring Wave 2 to the con to sell and backers will just have to understand yet again.
It's "bitching" to vent when PB is proven to lie to their backers? Seriously?
It was also promised that I would get those in December. No, October. No, December. No, January. No, March. No, wait - July. No, sorry - after $random_joe_off_the_street gets his copy at GenCon, despite the fact that they said - repeatedly - backers would get theirs before retail (and IMO if you're selling at retail price, it's a retail sale).
I could have told you from day one that that wasn't going to happen, between my background as an industrial engineer and experience with other kickstarters, as well as what they presented to us from the very start of the kickstarter it was a completely unrealistic date. I mean, it *might* have been realistic if all we funded was the starter box, but as soon as we got into expansion territory that went right out the window.
Yes, kickstarters have inherent risk. Thanks for the patronizing statement. That doesn't mean it's okay to flat out lie to your backers, or that it's okay to accept almost $1.5 million and throw together some shoddy work and pretend you're good.
Where were we lied to exactly? Aside from the delivery date, which I suppose was a 'lie' though one that seems common to almost every kickstarter to the point that I am surprised when one *is* on time. Also, shoddy work? Whats shoddy? The minis look on par with what I would expect, you havent even seen them in person either, good job judging purely on some low quality photos.
No, you absolutely can. I paid ~$250 into the Sedition Wars kickstarter, getting minis for way under "retail". Look at how much those are worth now. Are you sure this kickstarter can't hit the same results? (note: I didn't pledge to resell in any case, but the comparison given was price paid vs retail)
I didn't pledge that kickstarter, didn't strike me as being very realistic, not really familiar with how it turned out either, though I've been told the minis left a lot to be desired. As I understand it (based on what I inferred from your post), it was a post-release failure and is now priced even lower than the kickstarter due to the fact that they have to move a load of crappy product. Oh well, it happens, its entirely possible (though unlikely) that GW puts a price drop in effect on its miniatures range and the $50 miniatures you bought yesterday end up being worth $40 tomorrow. Would you be crying about that too?
Something simple: we gave them money for "product" over a year ago and other people get first crack at getting their hands on them.
Those people are giving them money for product too. Besides, you didn't pre-order or purchase, you pledged money as an investment with the understanding that you would be rewarded with stuff commensurate with your level of investment at a future date. Beyond that, its a very very limited pool of 100 people. Fun fact, 99% of the stuff you pre-order or pledge to in a kickstarter usually is sold to someone or given to them for free as a review or preview product a month or more before you get your hands on it yourself via similar limited release, you just aren't often told of it or aware of it. You're holding Palladium or Ninja Division or whomever it is to an unfair double standard, as I dont see you complaining elsewhere when others do it (and aren't transparent about it).
The quality of both products mentioned are showing "blemishes" to the "amazing" quality touted so there is some concern of "value".
The worst I've seen is the 'crayola box' missile launchers, if thats the worst of my worries then its really not that upset. They're plastic miniatures, seamlines and loss of certain details are to be expected.
At a kickstarter everything IS premature, usually only concepts can be brought forward. It is by raising money they get to make the reality. The "within the year" of the kickstarter close was the official timeline and they have extended well past that to "get it right". The critical timeline is the model development, they still have tons of time to make sure the game is right which is showing holes: there is no real excuse for that element.
I disagree, some are better prepared than others. I have backed kickstarters where everything was ready to enter production, they just needed the capital to 'press start' with their manufacturer and I received the stuff on time (that happened precisely twice, mind you, out of the 20+ kickstarters I've backed thus far), this was clearly not one of those kickstarters. I don't believe that they had any physical product to show at the time, not even prototype miniatures, and IIRC the rules were still in development. They claimed they had completed the majority of development before the kickstarter, but based on the fact that they were entirely reliant on 3d renders and concept artwork to display the product to us, it seemed pretty clear that they meant something different by 'development' than what most people would assume.
But you can only go so far with the trite statement of "buyer beware", YES Palladium has a bad track record, there was optimism that Ninja Division would smooth out those issues, we have found out that is not so. Also the unhappiness is with what we are NOT receiving, we still have Wave2 to wait for and I have not received a thing as of yet.
Again, i'm unphased, that seems pretty common with kickstarters, pretty much every miniatures based (and several non miniatures) kickstarter i've pledged is phased in such a manner. It means you get *something* sooner.
But retail is receiving the product first, developed with your money. They are still banking on selling the product with the rules "sight unseen". Imagine if the rules are panned as "garbage" by the critics? How much could they command at retail then?
100 people are receiving the product 'at retail', its like an advanced/preview distribution, again, perfectly normal. If the rules are garbage, then oh well, I got a lemon and will find another way to use the minis, its the risk I accepted when I backed a kickstarter that gave me absolutely no indication as to how the game is played.
Kickstarter is just like "pre-order"
False. That is not, and has never been, the point of kickstarter. There is a section ON the Kickstarter website itself which states as much in pretty clear terminology. Just because you have misunderstood/misconstrued what a kickstarter is and how it functions doesn't change what it actually is.
Your point? They are allowed to pre-sell their own product, there is nothing in the kickstarter agreement that you entered into which indicates otherwise, and the expectation that they not be allowed to put their own product up for pre-sale until you receive yours is a ridiculous one.
What gets my knickers in a twist is that everyone is looking to get my money ahead of time with little compulsion to ensure it gets to me with some compelling benefits or "interest" on that early use of the money.
Then don't pledge Kickstarters, its that simple. It's not a pre-order platform, its a funding platform. Most things posted on that website will never become a reality unless it receives funding via Kickstarter. If you think the idea is worthy of your money, and would like to see it brought to market, you give them your money. If you don't, don't, and maybe enough other people will and it will end up becoming a thing, or maybe everybody else agrees with you and the project flounders and nothing ever comes of it. The benefit/interest is that you're ultimately getting the product that they agreed to give you for backing, often at a reduced rate. If that isn't incentive enough for you, then, again, don't pledge to a kickstarter.
The bottom line is that the 100 (or however many) copies the sell at Gencon are already sold. That's the deal that they clearly made with their backers- You get priority over retail. The first copies are yours.
Did they? I don't see that stated or implied anywhere on their page. You may have implied or inferred that yourself, but there was no obligation on their end to do so if they didn't state it.
I have a feeling that they've already blown through a stupid amount of the pledge money in stupid ways, and they feel they literally have to get some retail return in order to even finish the project. I will not be shocked to hear "wave 2" requiring some sort of bail-out to be released.
I wouldn't disagree with you. As long as I get the gak I paid for, I dont really care though.
Ah, so your complaining about complaining is rooted in ignorance. Well then.. update 125 is the spot that comes to mind easiest but it was also stated multiple times before and after it. Please in the future get a clue before you decide to jump head first into the "you guys are a bunch of whiners!" insult pool.
Oh, Update 125 you say? Released in January of this year? 6 months AFTER you had already pledged? Uh huh, okay, yeah. That wasn't originally part of the deal unless you assumed it, at one point after the fact they made that a bonus, and then at some point they felt the need to renege on that. IT HAPPENS. 100 copies pre-sold to 100 people at a convention isn't the end of the world. You will be receiving your stuff before the general public.
Chances are if they're getting 100 boxes of it shipped out to them before the main shipment arrives, then they are technically pre/early production copies anyway, customarily done as a test run of pretty much all products as the final step before a product enters production. This is to familiarize the staff with proper packaging procedures, establish workflow, etc, and often there are packaging errors, etc. as a result. Consider yourself lucky that you *aren't* getting one of those copies, as the risk of a faulty product will decrease dramatically beyond that initial run.
I think we need to stop looking at ourselves as "backers", and instead look at ourselves as "investors". PB promised us a return on our investment in the form of a game and miniatures guaranteed delivered to us before anyone got it through retail. We have paid for the product they were developing, and as I see it, they are now refusing to give us that which we paid for. To me this is something that might be actionable in a legal sense. If their update had been more apologetic and less condescending, I might not be as ticked off as I am, but since it was more smoke and mirrors, I'm not going to be nice to them anymore, and start demanding that they have my stuff for me at GenCon. All of us who are going should do the same.
jacobus wrote: PB promised us a return on our investment in the form of a game and miniatures guaranteed delivered to us before anyone got it through retail.
Again, no they didn't, except after the kickstarter had already been completed. You ASSUMED that that was the case up until that point.
We have paid for the product they were developing, and as I see it, they are now refusing to give us that which we paid for.
Except they aren't? They are getting it to you when they can get it to you. Honestly I keep seeing this stated and it reeks of a petulant child. Besides that, and what would piss ME off, is if they did ship to 100 backers who got to play with their nice new toys for a full month before they even got around to shipping mine out, and trust me you would too, because that is almost exactly what just happened with the All Quiet on the Martian Front kickstarter a couple weeks back, and there was much gnashing and wailing of teeth their too as a result (though definitely not anywhere near as bad as this).
(To be more precise they started shipping orders at a very low rate over a month ago, and then increased after a week or two. My kickstarter, and that of several of my friends, were amongst some of the last to go out. There were backers overseas who received their product weeks before I did, despite the fact that I live only 3 hours north of their distribution facility. In fact, I didn't actually receive my box o' goodies until the day that the game officially went on sale via retail. Oh, and on top of that, they are also doing a similar 2 phase distribution method, so there is that too).
To me this is something that might be actionable in a legal sense.
It's not, because it wasn't something that was 'promised' until after they had already collected from you. Beyond that, you should look at the Kickstarter T&C.
I could have told you from day one that that wasn't going to happen, between my background as an industrial engineer and experience with other kickstarters, as well as what they presented to us from the very start of the kickstarter it was a completely unrealistic date. I mean, it *might* have been realistic if all we funded was the starter box, but as soon as we got into expansion territory that went right out the window.
And that gives them permission to throw out any date they want with no expectation of having upset customers? Yes, we knew they were full of gak. We said so right here in this thread. That doesn't mean it's okay.
Where were we lied to exactly? Aside from the delivery date, which I suppose was a 'lie' though one that seems common to almost every kickstarter to the point that I am surprised when one *is* on time. Also, shoddy work? Whats shoddy? The minis look on par with what I would expect, you havent even seen them in person either, good job judging purely on some low quality photos.
The reports we've had about the rules are shoddy. The seams in the locations they're in is shoddy work. I expect better if someone is calling them "mouth watering" and selling them like PB is.
Oh, and they essentially guaranteed us that they'd deliver backer boxes before retail. They changed their mind on that. So if that's not a lie...
I didn't pledge that kickstarter, didn't strike me as being very realistic, not really familiar with how it turned out either, though I've been told the minis left a lot to be desired. As I understand it (based on what I inferred from your post), it was a post-release failure and is now priced even lower than the kickstarter due to the fact that they have to move a load of crappy product. Oh well, it happens, its entirely possible (though unlikely) that GW puts a price drop in effect on its miniatures range and the $50 miniatures you bought yesterday end up being worth $40 tomorrow. Would you be crying about that too?
No. Because I don't give a crap about retail value - you were the one that brought it up. Since you put enough stock in retail value to mention it, I'd expect you'd be upset about it happening though.
But retail is receiving the product first, developed with your money.
They are still banking on selling the product with the rules "sight unseen".
Imagine if the rules are panned as "garbage" by the critics?
How much could they command at retail then?
100 people are receiving the product 'at retail', its like an advanced/preview distribution, again, perfectly normal. If the rules are garbage, then oh well, I got a lemon and will find another way to use the minis, its the risk I accepted when I backed a kickstarter that gave me absolutely no indication as to how the game is played.
No, it's not perfectly normal. Normal would be identifying reviews in advance and sending copies, etc. Marketing.
This is like the Max/Myria debacle - first come, first serve, we don't care who you are. It's exactly like retail.
Oh, Update 125 you say? Released in January of this year? 6 months AFTER you had already pledged? Uh huh, okay, yeah. That wasn't originally part of the deal unless you assumed it, at one point after the fact they made that a bonus, and then at some point they felt the need to renege on that. IT HAPPENS. 100 copies pre-sold to 100 people at a convention isn't the end of the world. You will be receiving your stuff before the general public.
It was part of the deal. Because the deal was, until then, to deliver well before GenCon and announce retail fall of 2014. "Backers first" didn't have to be said because it couldn't happen any other way.
Again, its 100 copies released as a promotion, it is NOT the end of the world, and you will still be getting yours before anyone other than them.
At this point I wouldnt be surprised if they consciously made this decision knowing it would piss you all off as a sort of 'twist of the knife' for all the complaining they've no doubt endured since the minute the kickstarter ended.
Oh, Update 125 you say? Released in January of this year? 6 months AFTER you had already pledged? Uh huh, okay, yeah. That wasn't originally part of the deal unless you assumed it, at one point after the fact they made that a bonus, and then at some point they felt the need to renege on that. IT HAPPENS. 100 copies pre-sold to 100 people at a convention isn't the end of the world. You will be receiving your stuff before the general public.
Careful! You'll hurt your back moving those goalposts so quickly after being proven so wrong. You said they never claimed we'd get them before retail and I told you of just ONE of the instances months ago when they promised it. Now it has to be part of the "original deal" with your very Palladium-esque revision of your point? The original deal... you know.. the one where they promised us ALL of our minis by last December? Oh, wait... they unilaterally amended that to 1/3 of the sculpts one two months late... I mean six months late... I mean 8-10 months late. The part about promising backers getting theirs first before retail was repeatedly supposed to be the consolation prize mantra uttered to soften the blow of the colossal management failure to that point. And you're also now equivocating "before the general public"... that isn't what they promised either. No matter how you look at it, they promised it and they're now knowing breaking that promise. Palladium themselves admit it. I have no idea why you have such a hard time doing so. You don't care that they're breaking their word yet again... I get it. That is your choice and you're welcome to that opinion. Just don't spout out completely ignorant falsehoods about them never promising it just so you can try to insult fellow posters. And, btw, a quick google search for robotech announcements brings up this page from BEFORE the kickstarter:
chaos0xomega wrote: Again, its 100 copies released as a promotion, it is NOT the end of the world, and you will still be getting yours before anyone other than them.
Are you sure about that? And isn't that still directly contradicting what they said in January?
At this point I wouldnt be surprised if they consciously made this decision knowing it would piss you all off as a sort of 'twist of the knife' for all the complaining they've no doubt endured since the minute the kickstarter ended.
Wow. Could you help me catch my eyes? They're halfway out the door they're rolling so hard.
"Hey... these guys have legitimate complaints that we mostly ignored. I know! As revenge we'll piss them off even more! Just for fun! There's *no* *way* this could backfire into negative publicity!"
I really wouldn't worry about the public getting too much at GenCon. One or two ViPs will grab up most if not all of the stock to flip on ebay. It's really the one thing I hate most about GenCon. I mean I know companies are there to make as much money as possible but it really hurts your PR with the general public when you allow ViP junk like that to go down.
ProTip gaming companies: Purchase limits are not a bad thing at massive events like this.
They had purchasing limits of 1 per customer per day and that didn't stop ebay sellers from getting multiples. IIRC one seller had 4 each of Max and Miriya for sale during the first day or two of the con and then got another two later on.
VIGs buying up all the copies until a clever manager told the mooks to stop unloading the pallets.
You see at Gencon people with VIG badges get access to the dealer hall an hour before the regular badges.
I'm not sure if Robotech will be as popular though.
It was last year. A buddy of mine was a VIG and he went straight to the booth and there was a line at least 20 long (and IIRC they were only giving out 50 each a day).
Of course there are a lot of big releases to compete with this year- D&D Fifth, 40k Conquest, Inifinity's Icestorm, Relic Knights, Doom Town, and I'm sure I'm forgetting a few others.
Mr.Church13 wrote: Gonna be honest. I'd love a shot at the Rick Hunter special but I missed the KS by a good while.
I imagine there'll be plenty on ebay, probably enough that the price likely won't be driven too far out of reach.
I can't speak for anyone else, but my group of 3 who backed together have 8 of those things coming. I've got 3 lined up personally, and intend to sell 2 (along with a big pile of other stuff to recoup some costs from this clusterfeth), and I wouldn't be surprised if others felt similarly.
I've seen some people comment about wanting to have a Skull Squadron (literally) and putting the Roys to use there, so it's possible those might be a bit harder to come by, but overall I wouldn't be surprised if there was plenty of RRT on the secondary market once packages start getting delivered.
My worry is that it is not 100 boxes, but a few hundred according to the update, so perhaps 250 at the low end but possibly 500 plus. No wonder there was no room to fulfil direct backer pick up?
I do not buy the promotion angle , great demos, enthusiastic players/backers and a preorder systemwould have taken care of that.
To me it looks loke a cash dash, which is more worrying when we know they still have to get Wave 2 out there. Has KS used up his funding and are PB struggling again?
Apart from anything else still nothing on their replacement policy - did you note the lack of popcorn or othe protection for the sprues? - and a clear fulfilment policy.
Can PB cponfirm that it will be US backers then the ROW backers or is PB going to go gangsta again and just fulfil US backers then the US preorders to retail, finally releasing the ROW late this year once container ten or whatever it is docks.
I have asked several times but still can get noone at PB to tell me who their UK agents are
@Cypher: Feel free to post it wherever. Just know that it will likely get you an instant warning over on the Palladium forums.
@Coyote: A few hundred may be all they'll be able to put together. From the look of the pics, it doesn't look like the factory is collating the stuff into the correct boxes automatically. If that is the case, they'll likely have to spend the first few days after it gets there putting all the components together in the box by hand. I'm going to take a wild guess and say that priority will be given to assembling the gencon boxes and not those going out to the token number of backers and fan friends that will see them during the con.
I think the lawsuit talk is a bunch of hot air from a guy seemingly filled with an endless supply of it judging from his style of posting. As for wave 2, I suspect we'll be in the same situation for Gencon 2015 where it shows up there first and backers who paid (at that point) two years earlier get the leftovers whenever they get around to it.
Eh, that "Rick" guy has been posting about a lawsuit incessantly for months, but some other guy apparently had an attorney write up something and faxed it over to PB (how very fittingly 80's) on Friday.
Whether or not it holds up under scrutiny, this update finally pushed some people to act.
Although I don't really care too much, the way the poll is structured makes me want to vote no on principal. I'm inclined to vote yes in reality as I could see PB putting all the No votes to the end of the line for fulfillment.
I have to say that I admit I'm surprised at how many yes votes they're getting, largely from first time posters. I had a suspicion that I'd see lots of double or triple voting but I didn't find any in the very limited subset of 2 pages I checked (the first page of comments and one in the middle). If that is the will of the general backer populace then so be it. I guess after all this time I invested way too much time and effort and consternation into this project and just need to step way the feth back.
Pretty sure the idea they have is that "If you can't be bothered to vote 'No,' then you probably agree to some extent."
I haven't voted yet, but really, RT is not that late. Sure, my perspective is a little skewed (Thank you Ogre! Or Relic Knights! Or several others), but I also knew from the beginning that the Dec 2013 was an insane date. I did not expect it before this summer at the earliest, so getting mine sometime around GenCon, even if I only get the initial wave at that point, makes it no worse than other projects I have backed. (Rivet Wars was only a few months late for the initial, IIRC, but the Wave 2 stuff is in a race to get to me before RT, and may not win. C'est la vie, and all that.)
Having some to actually sell is partially about making money, but I suspect that Palladium really wants to get this into the hands of people at GenCon to try and remove the stink that has been floating around the internet about it. Shipping a few hundred copies to GenCon is going to impact the shipping schedule for the KS backers not at all - it's having the staff presence at GenCon that will cause a delay in KS shipments, if anything.
I may be disappointed, but OTOH, these are still a luxury item, little plastic soldier men that I bought, and will eventually get to use. I have too many games and not enough time as it is, so the fact that RT models aren't sitting on my desk right now simply means that I have some time to work on WM, or RK, or SDE, or. . . .
If you're going to compare it to Relic Knights, you need to keep this in mind. RK shipped EVERYTHING in one go. RT is shipping in waves so really, if you want to compare them, compare it after you find out how many years after the estimated delivery date they will finish shipping the WHOLE of the RTKS
Sining wrote: If you're going to compare it to Relic Knights, you need to keep this in mind. RK shipped EVERYTHING in one go. RT is shipping in waves so really, if you want to compare them, compare it after you find out how many years after the estimated delivery date they will finish shipping the WHOLE of the RTKS
Yes, I know that RK managed to ship everything in one wave (well, shipping is still wrapping up, but still), as did WWX. But Rivet Wars is two waves, and the second is not yet done. And, with RT shipping in two waves, as long as wave 2 is coming in early 2015, they are no worse off than RK was. (And Ogre did everything in one swoop, and was over a year late as well.) I'll grant that they may be that late - but you know what, it doesn't bother me. If I really wanted something now, I would not back KS projects that interest me. I back things on the expectation that, if they are funded, then eventually I will get the product.
Not sure which I think it worse - something being a year or more late, but getting it all at once, or something being a year or more late, but getting the core game and some select models before that point, with the remainder coming at that year or more point.
warlordgarou wrote: Pretty sure the idea they have is that "If you can't be bothered to vote 'No,' then you probably agree to some extent."
I haven't voted yet, but really, RT is not that late. Sure, my perspective is a little skewed (Thank you Ogre! Or Relic Knights! Or several others), but I also knew from the beginning that the Dec 2013 was an insane date. I did not expect it before this summer at the earliest, so getting mine sometime around GenCon, even if I only get the initial wave at that point, makes it no worse than other projects I have backed. (Rivet Wars was only a few months late for the initial, IIRC, but the Wave 2 stuff is in a race to get to me before RT, and may not win. C'est la vie, and all that.)
As Sining mentions, this is only a partial amount. While it makes up most of the physical count of the pledge, it makes up less than a third of the actual units available. You can't stop the clock until Wave 2 of RRT has arrived. EDIT: And to add to your following post, I think early 2015 is unlikely. I fully expect to see this play out again at GenCon 2015, with PB saying they NEED to release some of the finished Wave 2 items to the public, but don't you worry, when Wave 2 is complete, it'll be bundled off to you. If I were a problem gambler, I'd put it on October/November next year.
warlordgarou wrote: Having some to actually sell is partially about making money, but I suspect that Palladium really wants to get this into the hands of people at GenCon to try and remove the stink that has been floating around the internet about it. Shipping a few hundred copies to GenCon is going to impact the shipping schedule for the KS backers not at all - it's having the staff presence at GenCon that will cause a delay in KS shipments, if anything.
Actually, depending on how many they're sending, and how many they're getting, in addition to your mentioned staff absence, it'll delay KS shipments. What it won't do, is generate any real impetus. The number of boxes needed to make an impact at GenCon, is well north of a "few hundred".
As someone pointed out on the KS, last year's Max and Miriya were "a few hundred", and he lined up first thing every day, and only got one of the pair (Miriya). I recall walking past a couple of times before lunch, and overhearing "Yeah, they're all gone, try again tomorrow. So, it looks like a significant percentage of the crowd are gonna get doinked by Palladium. Yay! Palladium are giving them that Kickstarter experience! Excitement and hype only pay off, if you have people walking away happy, with product. And either there's enough to go around, which means backers are getting double-doinked, or there's not, and PB just blew some goodwill (not all the now peeved backers were previously peeved) for no appreciable benefit. Similarly, if their optimistic as hell shipping timeline (seriously, they had better of signed the shipping contract in blood at a crossroads) falls through, again, a lot of angst generated, for no return.
That's not to say they shouldn't have a presence there. Absolutely. Demos galore, and not just the tiny 2' table ones. Full 6x4 full sized games that people can see in action. A few open display boxes, and the display case with all the completed Wave 2 prototypes (though I'd get a professional modeller to clean them up). The ability to sign up for the product. Instructions on how to be a part of the emergent community (they ARE still trying to get "organised play" off the ground, right?). There is a metric buttload of stuff they can do that'll have a bigger impact than (and less blowback) selling 50-75 boxes a day, mostly before the doors open (assuming few means few).
How much of a delay it causes depends entirely on how many boxes they ship to GenCon, and what their inventory levels are like. If they have 10,000 units, and 7500 are promised to KS backers, then shipping 500 to GenCon won't matter. If they have 7500 units (so just enough for the KS backers), with more coming in during GenCon, and they ship 1500 to GenCon, then yeah, KS backers would get delayed.
I suspect "several hundred" means about 100 boxes/day wort of allotment, and I hope they have a big demo presence.
Regarding excitement and hype paying off only if you have product - PP has run out of stuff on day 1 before, and it hasn't seemed to hurt them anyway.
Anyway, YMMV. I don't think it's worth getting all worked up over it. I'll get them when I get them, and go from there. Venting my spleen over this seems pointless - I'll vent it over WWXLOS rules, or some rules wordings in RK instead.
ETA - my initial post did reference getting only the initial wave during August, but it may not have been clear. Yeah, I know it is coming in two (or more) waves. The more I think about it, the more I'd rather have the core game early, and the rest of it later, than everything all at once, but at a later date.
Shipping 500 to Gencon off the top will most certainly matter.
They say they have "4-5 cargo trailers" coming with product. Say each of those holds about 2k boxes, and the Backers ordered around 6,500 (a little higher than the numbers I've worked out previously, but rounded for simplicity).
First container holds 2k boxes. 500 go to Gencon, 1,500 ship to backers. They finish up shipping from that section within the week. 500 boxes that COULD have gone to backers are being sold at Gencon instead, which could represent anywhere from 100 to 500 separate orders. That's 100-500 backers who are waiting extra days or longer for their package, just so PB can have some to sell.
And that carries on through the entire shipment. Container 2 arrives, 500 of those boxes head out to people that would have gotten their packages with container 1, and 100-500 backers from what would have been container 2 now have to wait for container 3.
Now, suppose container 3 gets held up in customs, or there's bad weather and it takes an extra week (all told) to get things in and sorted out.
And container 4 ends up on the Lost island.
See where I'm getting at here? Lopping a "couple hundred" off the top could have ramifications flowing all the way through the rest of the backer deliveries, and magnifies with each delay, where people at the end of the line are possibly waiting entire weeks extra (or more, who knows what shenanigans we're going to see and hear about).
Chaos theory style, one small change can have a large effect far enough down the line.
Now, that said, if every "Yes" voter was also willing to have their name put to the back of the line, then I'm totally on board. Everyone's happy. The Yes's make up for the hundreds they sell at Gencon, the No's aren't any further back than they would've been anyway.
chaos0xomega wrote: Jesus christ, what is everyone bitching about now? This thread is exasperating, its like everyone whos pledged to this kickstarter feels entitled to something other than the product you pledged for. You were promised plastic multipart miniatures and a set of rules to use them with, and that is exactly what you are getting. Both rules and model development at the time was in a premature enough state that getting lemons was a distinct possibility, you inherently accepted that risk by giving them your money. If you're unhappy with what you're receiving, deal with, as the saying goes "Buyer beware".
Personally, I'm pretty pleased with what I'm seeing. Everything could always be better, but considering how my $300-400 initial investment on this kickstarter isprobably worth closer to $500 or $600 in retail, I can't complain.
Love your work.
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Asterios wrote: still not sure what I will vote, since some of the aspects of voting they gave seem shady at best, especially the part where all non-voters will be considered yes.
It's incredibly shady, especially since most backers won't even know about their bs poll. I found out by reading this thread.
Oh, and I voted, too. I know it's heresy to an extent here to not be bothered about them selling at Gencon, but speaking as someone who won't be at/can't get to Gencon, I wouldn't mind them selling some there if they were also willing to let attendee backers pick their copies up as well. But since they're not willing to do that, my vote is:
Azazelx wrote: It's incredibly shady, especially since most backers won't even know about their bs poll. I found out by reading this thread.
Won't most backers read about it when they get the Update #149 email?
From what I've seen, read, and participated in, most backers stop giving a gak about campaigns long before some random update on a project that's approaching a year late for less than half delivery.
I imagine untold emails will sit unread in inboxes and spam folders, or people will simply ignore them (this is the 149th update, after all, and they are notorious for being length and not saying anything of importance).
"Does it say they're shipping? No? Something about Gencon? Not going, don't care."
The elections for the most powerful position of political power in the world doesn't even see 60% turn out. This would be astounding if it got to 20%. During what was previously the most contentious issue in the campaign ("Spartangate") I counted up unique names in the comments, and came up with something like 4-5% participation.
This deck was stacked at *least* 40% in Yes's favour with their simply baffling manner of counting non-votes. They're asking for an opinion and then telling people what their opinion is. That's not a question, it's an insult.
I think you're going to be surprised at the number of people voting, and it looks like the "yes" votes are winning by a fairly large majority. At this point, they could easily not count anyone not voting, and be still be able to sell at Gencon.
Brasidas wrote: I think you're going to be surprised at the number of people voting, and it looks like the "yes" votes are winning by a fairly large majority. At this point, they could easily not count anyone not voting, and be still be able to sell at Gencon.
No doubt about it. Which makes their tainting of the voting process all the sadder.
I respect that it at least appears my opinion falls with a vocal minority.
That doesn't make their bullgak any less shady.
Edit: but I stand by my assessment. There's a lot of votes, no doubt about it, but we're barely at 1000 posts and there are tons of multi-posts in there. They may have 500 unique votes, perhaps 800, but that's still barely in the 10-15% range, and participation will probably drop off sharply in the next day or two (while the post count continues to explode as people make it the general chat area once more).
Voted yes. I know how long it takes my stuff I order from 'Murica to cross the Freedom Sea and get to my continent, so others getting their stuff before me is hardly an issue. What I would like is some (potential) hype generated to help me get some fence sitters over here interested in playing.
And for more sweet, sweet nerdrage tears to brighten my dreary days! Man, totes can't wait for all those lawsuits to start :p!
Evil_Toast wrote: And for more sweet, sweet nerdrage tears to brighten my dreary days! Man, totes can't wait for all those lawsuits to start :p!
Some dudes just can't help but kick a man when he's down.
:-(
Seriously it's not shady...
No other organization in the world will operate in another fashion- not one- because they laid it out in the methodology- if you don't vote you are automatically a yes- so choosing not to vote is an automatic agreement.100% of backers are being made aware of this poll so it's not like they can't vote. If they were waiting to the end to say that then it would be different and I might be upset. That said, they let you know from the start how this poll will work.
If a backer can't be bothered to vote in this then the backer doesn't care if it's being sold at Gencon- which is a yes. That's the simple truth here.
warlordgarou wrote: Having some to actually sell is partially about making money, but I suspect that Palladium really wants to get this into the hands of people at GenCon to try and remove the stink that has been floating around the internet about it. Shipping a few hundred copies to GenCon is going to impact the shipping schedule for the KS backers not at all - it's having the staff presence at GenCon that will cause a delay in KS shipments, if anything.
Yeah... see, if that's what they want, I say... Yeah, by all means, do this: allow any disgruntled backer that wants a refund to get one and bring as many boxes to sell as the refunds you've given.
efarrer wrote: Seriously it's not shady...
No other organization in the world will operate in another fashion- not one- because they laid it out in the methodology- if you don't vote you are automatically a yes- so choosing not to vote is an automatic agreement.100% of backers are being made aware of this poll so it's not like they can't vote. If they were waiting to the end to say that then it would be different and I might be upset. That said, they let you know from the start how this poll will work.
If a backer can't be bothered to vote in this then the backer doesn't care if it's being sold at Gencon- which is a yes. That's the simple truth here.
That's crazy talk.
There are untold reasons why a person may or may not choose to publicly vote, that doesn't give Palladium the right to tell them how they feel.
As I said, during the most controversial time in this campaign's history we had somewhere around 4-5% participation, for and against alike.
We can have TEN TIMES that many people vote and it''d still be a Yes by at least a 60-40 margin, and quite possibly an 80-20 margin. They claimed they were taking a vote, but also flat out showed us the giant boxes already stuffed with ballots in one direction.
Forar wrote: Shipping 500 to Gencon off the top will most certainly matter.
They say they have "4-5 cargo trailers" coming with product. Say each of those holds about 2k boxes, and the Backers ordered around 6,500 (a little higher than the numbers I've worked out previously, but rounded for simplicity).
First container holds 2k boxes. 500 go to Gencon, 1,500 ship to backers. They finish up shipping from that section within the week. 500 boxes that COULD have gone to backers are being sold at Gencon instead, which could represent anywhere from 100 to 500 separate orders. That's 100-500 backers who are waiting extra days or longer for their package, just so PB can have some to sell.
And that carries on through the entire shipment. Container 2 arrives, 500 of those boxes head out to people that would have gotten their packages with container 1, and 100-500 backers from what would have been container 2 now have to wait for container 3.
Now, suppose container 3 gets held up in customs, or there's bad weather and it takes an extra week (all told) to get things in and sorted out.
And container 4 ends up on the Lost island.
See where I'm getting at here? Lopping a "couple hundred" off the top could have ramifications flowing all the way through the rest of the backer deliveries, and magnifies with each delay, where people at the end of the line are possibly waiting entire weeks extra (or more, who knows what shenanigans we're going to see and hear about).
Chaos theory style, one small change can have a large effect far enough down the line.
Now, that said, if every "Yes" voter was also willing to have their name put to the back of the line, then I'm totally on board. Everyone's happy. The Yes's make up for the hundreds they sell at Gencon, the No's aren't any further back than they would've been anyway.
Yes, it certainly could affect shipping. Or (and I am guessing this is more likely) - PP has X number of people packing KS orders. If PP takes 500 from the first container, can X people pack the remaining 1.5k boxes before container 2 gets there? If yes, and PP has people standing around doing nothing, waiting for container 2 to arrive, then it certainly does affect everyone past that first 1500. If X people are stilling packing from container 1 when container 2 arrives, then PP taking 500 of them will only affect shipping if a later container gets stuck in customs or something else happens to it. If all goes smoothly, no one even knows. PP is willing to take the chance that everything is going to go well enough that it does not matter in any significant way.
PP could put mine at the end of the line, and it won't bother me any. Mine was one of the last Ogre pledges to go out the door, and my WWX shipped after they said all the shipping was done. It happens, and someone has to be last. A couple locals are still waiting on the ship notices for their RK; though I got lucky and got mine just over a week ago.
And there is no way that PP can allow people to pick pledges up at GenCon. That's a logistical nightmare waiting to happen.
Not being able to keep up with the containers as they arrive would be its own series of problems.
We're talking about a company that said they think it'll take 3 weeks for the ship to leave China until the time they have the container at their warehouse. From what I've read, calling this 'optimistic' is orders of magnitude off from reality.
Forar wrote: Not being able to keep up with the containers as they arrive would be its own series of problems.
We're talking about a company that said they think it'll take 3 weeks for the ship to leave China until the time they have the container at their warehouse. From what I've read, calling this 'optimistic' is orders of magnitude off from reality.
The whole premise is flawed from the start.
I'm assuming that shipping is going to be a total clusterfark, taking much longer than anticipated (especially with staff either prepping for GenCon or gone for GenCon), and X number of units going to GenCon won't affect the shipping to the KS backers in the slightest because of that. In that regard, the only difference in Yes or No votes is whether or not PP sells stuff at GenCon.
I voted yes not out of a sense of goodwill or anything but because at this point I really don't give a gak. I just want this trainwreck of a project done with and I will never back a single project that PB or ND is involved in. At best its a bumbling incompetent cluster at worst its nearly criminal in its level of stupidity.
Evil_Toast wrote: Anyone keeping track of the polls? It seems the Yes camp has the upper hand. Granted, I've only read a handful of comment pages.
No reason to keep track. It is a complete and premeditated farce. Kevin and PB know that not even 10% will probably vote, so there isn't any risk to them taking games to sell. The slimy-ness of Kevin and his company has never been more apparent than now.
Also, I wouldn't put it past them to put all the NO votes at the end of the shipping spectrum.
You already paid for it? Well, there's your mistake right there!
One of my criteria for backing a project -- and that's what these things on "KS is not a store" -- is to look at a project manager. And, if Sad Pictures for Children, Doom that Came to Atlantic City, HeroQuest 25th edition, and other projects have shown me, the behavior of a company before KS funding is a good predictor of their behavior afterwards.
ced1106 wrote: You already paid for it? Well, there's your mistake right there!
One of my criteria for backing a project -- and that's what these things on "KS is not a store" -- is to look at a project manager. And, if Sad Pictures for Children, Doom that Came to Atlantic City, HeroQuest 25th edition, and other projects have shown me, the behavior of a company before KS funding is a good predictor of their behavior afterwards.
Plenty of reasons why people wouldn't want to post a public vote, voter laws protecting private/blind votes exist for a very good reason, people often don't like to voice their opinions in public venues as there's always some jackwad that will try and argue their point and why you should have voted for whatever outcome they did. What you gave for a Yes/No/No vote really shouldn't have to be privy to the general public. For starters the vote is a farce and public votes invite an unhealthy amount of peer pressure to influence the vote, particularly when a non vote = yes.
If there's two people running for president and I'm not keen on either choice I may well abstain from voting as I support neither option, it'd be complete crap if my non-vote automatically was applied to option A. As it forces a complete "with us or against us" mentality.
Much like his "customer polling results" it's simply another example of how Kev uses "feedback" to support whatever decision he's already committed to, he doesn't give a damn about what other people actually think but like every scummy politician he's simply twisting numbers/responses so he can claim he's only doing what his supporters want.
To be honest, I wouldn't have bothered voting if it hadn't been for the whole silence=yes thing.
Okay, so I did vote "yes", which doesn't affect the outcome one little bit, but I felt that it was all I could do to mitigate the un-coolness of this voting policy.
So now it is a pre order and the stuff for RRT doesn't belong to the backers according to Kevin's ex.
"However the stuff that the ks people are receiving is above and beyond anything that the folks that buy the game at gen con will get. The people that pledged through the kickstarter didn't buy anything more than a product, they bought it in advance and from what I can see are getting more than their money's worth, but they aren't stockholders, they're just consumers. The product is Kevin's blood, sweat and tears, without him and Palladium this product doesn't get made. Most books are not paid for completely out of Palladium's pockets, thats why you have investors and backers for the company, they've used this method of funding projects since the very beginning."
So it is a pre order and it's not our stuff even though we paid for it. It galls me that that's the typical PB attitude.
Chillreaper wrote: To be honest, I wouldn't have bothered voting if it hadn't been for the whole silence=yes thing.
Okay, so I did vote "yes", which doesn't affect the outcome one little bit, but I felt that it was all I could do to mitigate the un-coolness of this voting policy.
I'm glad you did.
I'm "a no", but I'd rather people be heard than this 'win on a technicality'.
Good on you for chiming in. Your voice deserves to be heard, rather than have an answer put in your mouth.
I voted "no", but from here on out I don't care. I turned off updates, deleted bookmarks, and have officially taken on a stance of "if it ever shows up I'll do something with it". Granted, that will most likely end up being put in my game closet along with BFG, Talisman, and all the other games that I own and never play. All I care about now is the money I threw at it. Had I known this would turn out the way it has I would have just given the money over to another company.
But like I said at the beginning of the post, "meh, whatever".
There were two reasons I stated that “no response” would mean “yes” in our Robotech® RPG Tactics™ vote from Kickstarter backers.
The main reason is I wanted to provoke a response.
I do NOT want our Kickstarter backers to remain silent on this matter. If you truly do not want us to bring product to Gen Con I sincerely NEED and want to know that. YOU need to make your voices heard so silence is not counted as a yes if that is not how you feel. And if that isn’t tremendous motivation to respond, I don’t know what is. That’s why I did that.
Likewise, if your answer is yes, it is vital that you post your yes vote so others can see it.
The second reason was something one of the guys brought up: If people do not respond, it truly does suggest that the silent ones do not care one way or the other, and are, in effect, giving their permission.
My hope is that it is all a moot point because the votes will clearly lean one way or the other.
Of course, I’m hoping the majority will will say “yes.” We need to have Robotech® RPG Tactics™ to sell at Gen Con. But whichever it is, I will live by it.
Before that post went up, it was read and discussed by the Palladium crew. They were surprised by my choice to put this in your hands, because they know unless the results of actual votes clearly gives us permission, we will NOT bring Robotech® RPG Tactics™ to Gen Con Indy.
Before it was posted, the question of the day was: “Kevin, after everything we have gone through with Robotech® RPG Tactics™, are you really prepared to not bring it to sell at Gen Con?”
Yes. My answer was and remains, yes. And they know I’m dead serious. I hope you do too. Wayne, Jeff, Alex, and the rest of the crew can confirm this discussion. I just wanted YOU guys to know that.
I have NOT looked at the results of the voting or gone to Facebook or the message boards. I’ve even asked one of the guys to post this in a Murmur for me and link it to Facebook. The outcome will be what it is.
Whether permission is granted or not, I would hope Palladium fans and customers know how important you are to me and all of us at Palladium Books. I would never turn my back on you or dismiss your concerns.
Palladium’s first rule of operation is that customers come first and should always be treated as we ourselves would like to be treated. That’s an actual rule, here.
We are not a big, faceless corporation who doesn’t give a fart in the wind about our fans. I don’t think people realize that WE ARE YOU! We are fan boy geeks who love games, Robotech® and what we do for a living. I think that’s what surprises people most when they meet us.
For Pete’s sake, I’m criticized by some for being too positive in my posts and updates. Sorry, folks, that’s who I am and I’m not ashamed to be myself. Over the past few years, I have had the opportunity to sell Palladium Books to bigger companies. I haven’t, because a) I love what I do and the people I work with, and b) it was clear from the onset that their interest is entirely about money and PR. In a few minutes I could tell they did not understand or care about our fans, nor the integrity of the product.
So yes, I am sincerely asking for permission to take Robotech® RPG Tactics™ to sell at Gen Con. I am truly sorry for any disappointment this issue and the delays may have caused. Anyone who chooses to believe otherwise is flat-out mistaken.
Sincerely,
Kevin Siembieda
Publisher, Writer and Game Designer
Rifts®, The Rifter®, RECON®, Splicers®, Palladium Books®, The Palladium Fantasy Role-Playing Game®, Phase World®, Nightbane®, Megaverse®, The Mechanoids®, The Mechanoid Invasion®, Coalition Wars® and After the Bomb® are Registered Trademarks of Palladium Books Inc. RPG Tactics™, Beyond the Supernatural, Chaos Earth, Coalition States, Dead Reign, Heroes Unlimited, Ninjas & Superspies, Minion War, Mysteries of Magic, SAMAS, Thundercloud Galaxy, Three Galaxies, Vampire Kingdoms, and other published book titles, names, slogans and likenesses are trademarks of Palladium Books Inc., and Kevin Siembieda.
Robotech® and Robotech® The Shadow Chronicles® are Registered Trademarks of Harmony Gold USA, Inc.
I've forwarded the below to Harmony Gold am curious to see what their response will be. I would suggest anyone who has similar concerns do the same as maybe if they see enough of a potential backlash from Palladium's actions they may step in to try and avert the disaster.
I'm taking this opportunity to contact you with regards to a Kickstarter that was run by one of your partners using the Robotech License that you have granted them use of.
As I am sure you are aware Palladium Games is now 7 months behind their expected delivery date of the Robotech RPG Tactics game that was able to raise over $1.4million dollars at the end of May 2013. They have since the end of that Kickstarter fumbled through the process consistently claiming that their were so many additional steps and difficulties that they had not anticipated that it has made a joke of the apparent business plan that they should have developed prior to the launch of this product.
You as the license holder are judged by the quality of the companies that you choose to partner with and I can not help but feel that the damage Palladium has done to your brand with their mismanagement is having a direct effect on the chances of this Kickstarter achieving its funding goal.
I implore you as the license holder to step in and exert what influence you can to ensure that your business partners make good on their commitments to fulfill the orders that they have yet to ship for the product that has been produced to the loyal fans who made their project possible, before they take it to retail and sell to the small selection of attendees at the GenCon gaming convention.
I understand that having product for Palladium to show at the convention is an important part of the promotional process for a game such as this however the limited sales that they will achieve at the convention can not compare to the amount of ill will that this has the potential to generate inside the growing community. By all means they should have product their for demonstration purposes however they should not be selling a single product to a customer until they have fulfilled the shipping of said available product to every Kickstarter backer who has paid for and made the creation of that product possible.
You silence on this subject up to this point has me re-considering my decision to back this product and I assure you that I will be canceling my support before the end of the project if you do not take steps to ensure that they make it right with their supporters.
There were two reasons I stated that “no response” would mean “yes” in our Robotech® RPG Tactics™ vote from Kickstarter backers.
The main reason is I wanted to provoke a response.
I do NOT want our Kickstarter backers to remain silent on this matter. If you truly do not want us to bring product to Gen Con I sincerely NEED and want to know that. YOU need to make your voices heard so silence is not counted as a yes if that is not how you feel. And if that isn’t tremendous motivation to respond, I don’t know what is. That’s why I did that.
Likewise, if your answer is yes, it is vital that you post your yes vote so others can see it.
The second reason was something one of the guys brought up: If people do not respond, it truly does suggest that the silent ones do not care one way or the other, and are, in effect, giving their permission.
My hope is that it is all a moot point because the votes will clearly lean one way or the other.
Of course, I’m hoping the majority will will say “yes.” We need to have Robotech® RPG Tactics™ to sell at Gen Con. But whichever it is, I will live by it.
Before that post went up, it was read and discussed by the Palladium crew. They were surprised by my choice to put this in your hands, because they know unless the results of actual votes clearly gives us permission, we will NOT bring Robotech® RPG Tactics™ to Gen Con Indy.
Before it was posted, the question of the day was: “Kevin, after everything we have gone through with Robotech® RPG Tactics™, are you really prepared to not bring it to sell at Gen Con?”
Yes. My answer was and remains, yes. And they know I’m dead serious. I hope you do too. Wayne, Jeff, Alex, and the rest of the crew can confirm this discussion. I just wanted YOU guys to know that.
I have NOT looked at the results of the voting or gone to Facebook or the message boards. I’ve even asked one of the guys to post this in a Murmur for me and link it to Facebook. The outcome will be what it is.
Whether permission is granted or not, I would hope Palladium fans and customers know how important you are to me and all of us at Palladium Books. I would never turn my back on you or dismiss your concerns.
Palladium’s first rule of operation is that customers come first and should always be treated as we ourselves would like to be treated. That’s an actual rule, here.
We are not a big, faceless corporation who doesn’t give a fart in the wind about our fans. I don’t think people realize that WE ARE YOU! We are fan boy geeks who love games, Robotech® and what we do for a living. I think that’s what surprises people most when they meet us.
For Pete’s sake, I’m criticized by some for being too positive in my posts and updates. Sorry, folks, that’s who I am and I’m not ashamed to be myself. Over the past few years, I have had the opportunity to sell Palladium Books to bigger companies. I haven’t, because a) I love what I do and the people I work with, and b) it was clear from the onset that their interest is entirely about money and PR. In a few minutes I could tell they did not understand or care about our fans, nor the integrity of the product.
So yes, I am sincerely asking for permission to take Robotech® RPG Tactics™ to sell at Gen Con. I am truly sorry for any disappointment this issue and the delays may have caused. Anyone who chooses to believe otherwise is flat-out mistaken.
Sincerely,
Kevin Siembieda
Publisher, Writer and Game Designer
Rifts®, The Rifter®, RECON®, Splicers®, Palladium Books®, The Palladium Fantasy Role-Playing Game®, Phase World®, Nightbane®, Megaverse®, The Mechanoids®, The Mechanoid Invasion®, Coalition Wars® and After the Bomb® are Registered Trademarks of Palladium Books Inc. RPG Tactics™, Beyond the Supernatural, Chaos Earth, Coalition States, Dead Reign, Heroes Unlimited, Ninjas & Superspies, Minion War, Mysteries of Magic, SAMAS, Thundercloud Galaxy, Three Galaxies, Vampire Kingdoms, and other published book titles, names, slogans and likenesses are trademarks of Palladium Books Inc., and Kevin Siembieda.
Robotech® and Robotech® The Shadow Chronicles® are Registered Trademarks of Harmony Gold USA, Inc.
almost makes you want to drink the kool aid, almost.
"However the stuff that the ks people are receiving is above and beyond anything that the folks that buy the game at gen con will get. The people that pledged through the kickstarter didn't buy anything more than a product, they bought it in advance and from what I can see are getting more than their money's worth, but they aren't stockholders, they're just consumers. The product is Kevin's blood, sweat and tears, without him and Palladium this product doesn't get made. Most books are not paid for completely out of Palladium's pockets, thats why you have investors and backers for the company, they've used this method of funding projects since the very beginning."
Wow... somebody almost as conceited as Kevin, no wonder he married her.
The blood sweat and tears thing is just fine and dandy, except that money doesn't come free to the customers, they earned their money just like everyone else by working the ass off. So they certainly aren't just throwing money at a project, they have put their own hard work, blood, sweat and tears, into the process, it just happens that money is the middle man in making that exchange.
Secondly she starts out by denying that backers are anything but comsumers implying that they have no value beyond buying the product, but Palladium only manages to get things produced with the investors and backers, so which is it? Either they need the help and input from backers or they don't. You can't redraw that line arbitrarily whenever you desire. If you are relying on contributions of backer/investors to get your product made then you have an obligation to treat them as such, and that means placing them above the consumer/peasant peon level that she seems to think backers hold.
Kevin may have put plenty of blood sweat and tears into making robotech happen, but saying it's "only because of him" is complete and utter BS. His only contribution is calling the shots because he has the IP locked, do you seriously think he's the only reason the game happened? if so you are crazy. Did he write the rules? no. Did he sculpt figures? no. These are thing he only signed off on and are the fruits born from the talents of other individuals all of which would be capable of producing the game in his absence. The game would have happened a long time ago without Kevin, but all he's done is cockblock others from being able to do it. There are plenty of talented people who have the skill and abilities to make a Robotech game (and arguably a better version at that)
The game exists solely because of the fans, first due to their money earned by blood sweat and tears and the fact that they love and support a 30 year old cartoon, which exists completely independent of a IP leech like Kevin.
Yes he may have worked hard to see his version of RRT come to be, but he certainly didn't do it by himself and a Robotech game would have happened just fine with or without him.
Wow... somebody almost as conceited as Kevin, no wonder he married her.
Wait Maryann is married to Kevin ? if that's the case then she gave away his game plan which coincides what I figured they would do, to protect themselves.
paulson games wrote: The game exists solely because of the fans, first due to their money earned by blood sweat and tears and the fact that they love and support a 30 year old cartoon, which exists completely independent of a IP leech like Kevin.
Yes he may have worked hard to see his version of RRT come to be, but he certainly didn't do it by himself and a Robotech game would have happened just fine with or without him.
Yeah, and to think that this should have been a relative slam dunk, is now requiring "it is vital to successfully kickoff the launch", just screams of the incompetence. That a "few hundred" boxes is the make or break point for this game apparently. As opposed to just showing up and doing demos and promotions and maybe some giveaways.
Because those "few hundred" boxes are much more important than say actually showing up at Adepticon (missed because of stated ignorance) or Origins (missed in favor of a culture con with 1300, as opposed, I dunno, a gaming con with 10K+). Seriously, it boggles my mind how an "industry professional with 30+ years experience" can make so many colossal blunders consistently and STILL remain in business.
When I initially heard about PB's reputation, I thought they were disgruntled fans over-exaggerating things. I can't believe how badly they'd been lowballing it. And for the record, I backed because I believed, based on how things were run, it'd be Ninja Division running the operation, not PB. Yeah, that was stupid.
paulson games wrote: The game exists solely because of the fans, first due to their money earned by blood sweat and tears and the fact that they love and support a 30 year old cartoon, which exists completely independent of a IP leech like Kevin.
Yes he may have worked hard to see his version of RRT come to be, but he certainly didn't do it by himself and a Robotech game would have happened just fine with or without him.
Yeah, and to think that this should have been a relative slam dunk, is now requiring "it is vital to successfully kickoff the launch", just screams of the incompetence. That a "few hundred" boxes is the make or break point for this game apparently. As opposed to just showing up and doing demos and promotions and maybe some giveaways.
Because those "few hundred" boxes are much more important than say actually showing up at Adepticon (missed because of stated ignorance) or Origins (missed in favor of a culture con with 1300, as opposed, I dunno, a gaming con with 10K+). Seriously, it boggles my mind how an "industry professional with 30+ years experience" can make so many colossal blunders consistently and STILL remain in business.
When I initially heard about PB's reputation, I thought they were disgruntled fans over-exaggerating things. I can't believe how badly they'd been lowballing it. And for the record, I backed because I believed, based on how things were run, it'd be Ninja Division running the operation, not PB. Yeah, that was stupid.
From seeing how RTA is getting money I'm sure now that if PB kickstarts era two it will get funded. And long as it's more subpar RT it'll bring in the suckers.
I feel pretty confident that Era 2 and/or 3 would get funded no matter what, since they'll probably ask for another 40 or 50k, and practically make it up with early birds alone.
But would it blow up to over a million again? I doubt it. Not with knowing that the money would be gone for 2 years or more and the lies would be fast and furious.
Forar wrote: I feel pretty confident that Era 2 and/or 3 would get funded no matter what, since they'll probably ask for another 40 or 50k, and practically make it up with early birds alone.
But would it blow up to over a million again? I doubt it. Not with knowing that the money would be gone for 2 years or more and the lies would be fast and furious.
But...is that what the prevailing opinion/feeling is?
I mean, sure, it is the truth, but...what's the mood like over in the comments section?
Cypher-xv wrote: From seeing how RTA is getting money I'm sure now that if PB kickstarts era two it will get funded. And long as it's more subpar RT it'll bring in the suckers.
Nope. If Robotech Academy makes it, it will be by a hair.
My bet is about $380k.
KS tend to start big and end big. This one started pretty poorly and the doldrums have set in. The last three to five days will decide it, but I don't think it will happen. And, really, a good chunk of the blame (apart from HG being a fantastically hated company with a hugely loved IP) will be because of idiot Simbieda's incompetence.
I haven't run the numbers, because I don't hate myself that much, but at a glance, I'd say roughly 80/20 Yes/No, BUT, there's a lot of Yes's that are practically under duress (as in "I know it doesn't matter, so yes, whatever, just finish it"), or express negativity or outright hostility for the project, the creator, or how the poll has been conducted, etc.
It'd probably depend on a lot of stuff. When this bullgak actually arrives for us (not just wave one, the whole thing), and how good or bad it actually is (not just pictures with huge seams, but actual ABS in our actual hands), how long wave two takes, what further ways they find to put their feet in their mouths, how good the deal is (if it's like the Battle Cry at the start of this campaign and that one doesn't blow up, forget it. Start me off at 100 figures for $100? Hell, I might get one of them and just ignore the campaign for a year outright), etc.
Hard to judge, but I think this is a stink that will put a lasting dent in any future crowd funding attempts. I can only imagine they're praying that retail and online sales are strong/lucrative enough that they don't have to go back for another round of cash. Sure, spending other people's money two years in advance is a sweet gig, but I can't imagine they're nearly as comfortable with the bad publicity they've been getting as they make out to be.
I'm actually ok with non-Backers getting it at Cons before Backers. If I wasn't, I'd be yelling at the BMOG guys for doing it at Botcon(at least they allowed Backers to pick theirs up at the Con).
I'm NOT ok with the "Apathy/No Response is consent" BS. I'm very much against anyone speaking for other people or assuming they agree because they don't feel the need/want to speak up.
With that said, Palladium have pretty much killed all the enjoyment I once got from this franchise. Thanks for nothing, you dicks.
Forar wrote: I haven't run the numbers, because I don't hate myself that much, but at a glance, I'd say roughly 80/20 Yes/No, BUT, there's a lot of Yes's that are practically under duress (as in "I know it doesn't matter, so yes, whatever, just finish it"), or express negativity or outright hostility for the project, the creator, or how the poll has been conducted, etc.
It'd probably depend on a lot of stuff. When this bullgak actually arrives for us (not just wave one, the whole thing), and how good or bad it actually is (not just pictures with huge seams, but actual ABS in our actual hands), how long wave two takes, what further ways they find to put their feet in their mouths, how good the deal is (if it's like the Battle Cry at the start of this campaign and that one doesn't blow up, forget it. Start me off at 100 figures for $100? Hell, I might get one of them and just ignore the campaign for a year outright), etc.
Hard to judge, but I think this is a stink that will put a lasting dent in any future crowd funding attempts. I can only imagine they're praying that retail and online sales are strong/lucrative enough that they don't have to go back for another round of cash. Sure, spending other people's money two years in advance is a sweet gig, but I can't imagine they're nearly as comfortable with the bad publicity they've been getting as they make out to be.
I can't understand that. If they're sick/tired of PB pulling this kind of stunts, you'd think they'd vote No. Instead it's just yes get it over with. Just can't understand this mentality. Also, I don't even think they're going to be able to bring product to Gencon. They're expecting delivery of the products by August 8 to their warehouse but it's all...unpackaged sprues. Which they then have to sort out and package at PB themselves it seems. That should be interesting to see
I can't understand that. If they're sick/tired of PB pulling this kind of stunts, you'd think they'd vote No. Instead it's just yes get it over with. Just can't understand this mentality. Also, I don't even think they're going to be able to bring product to Gencon. They're expecting delivery of the products by August 8 to their warehouse but it's all...unpackaged sprues. Which they then have to sort out and package at PB themselves it seems. That should be interesting to see
I wouldn't be surprised if they held off announcing the results until the week or so before GenCon when they'll know how many they've got packed and ready to go. That way, when they don't have enough ready, they'll bust out the "results" and say how wonderful they are about listening to their "fans" and that because of all the No votes, they won't be bringing any to sell at GenCon after all!
As I said in various posts on their last update, I voted no simply on principle. The fact that they would have counted my non vote as a yes pissed me off so much I logged in to vote. First Kickstarter and first time posting was yesterday.
Many people like myself probably didn't care. I've probably ignored 75% of their updates and just on a whim read this last one....
Way to piss off your supporters.
Now when I get my product I'll probably unload it quickly or swap it on Bartertown.com for some more 40k stuff. Only way I'd be ok is if they apologized and gave some free stuff as an apology.
I'm a cheap date, just an exclusive mini or some signatures on my *edit* cool */edit* stuff would be great...not asking for a whole other boxed set.
Forar wrote: Hard to judge, but I think this is a stink that will put a lasting dent in any future crowd funding attempts. I can only imagine they're praying that retail and online sales are strong/lucrative enough that they don't have to go back for another round of cash. Sure, spending other people's money two years in advance is a sweet gig, but I can't imagine they're nearly as comfortable with the bad publicity they've been getting as they make out to be.
Forar,
I don't think this is going to sell very well. Even to BT guys that want to use these as Unseen. I wouldn't buy any of the UEDF stuff, especially at the "premium" prices for the boxes. The Zentradi stuff looks decent, but I don't want to play Zent v. Zent. I don't think this is going to be flying off the shelves.
No argument there. At the prices they're charging, even after the cut off MSRP many stores take, I can't see it flying off the shelves.
I recognize that like myself, nostalgia might gloss over some of the reservations, but unlike other backers and I, they will be able to see sprues and built models in person, so if it's a pile of crap that doesn't sell outside of half off sales, that's where we'll be.
I suppose it's... fence sitting based not on the product, but on people being unpredictable creatures. Given the way the forces are lined up, I imagine they're hoping to have people snag up thousands of points per faction, and I'm sure some "whales" will do just that, but I'm doubting the average miniatures gamer is going to be willing to spend hundreds of dollars just to get a baseline force (that they need to assemble, prime and paint themselves).
Said no, then ripped them a new one about not issuing refunds and stated that I never wanted anything more to do with Palladium ever again.
After all, they can't put my wave 1 delivery to the back of the queue - I don't have anything in it!
If any government stated that any 'no vote' was a yes vote, they'd be out on their ears. I think Kevin needs to watch "V for Vendetta" and start worrying!
jacobus wrote: So not voting is implied consent? Not really sure how that works, but I'm glad he's got a shovel with which to dig his own hole.
If you don't vote, you don't care enough either way to express your opinion (or in a minority of cases you're away, etc. etc. and are thus entirely unaware as to whats going on). Personally, if I were Palladium I would operate under the same assumption (which is how the various facebook events I organize operate), if you don't care enough to give me a response one way or another I'm going to assume whatever is most convenient for me. Either that or they wanted to stoke the fires of nerdrage to see how many people wish them ill will lol. I guess that was confirmed given the post from Kevin or whomever that was posted earlier.
I voted yes, I can't wait to get my stuff, but I've waited this long already, an extra week or two won't kill me... besides that, I need more time to find space to store it
As a side note, despite the fact that I've been generally pro-Palladium/Ninja Divison for this project (as a further aside, I've never dealt with this company before and am entirely unfamiliar with their other products, etc.), I dont think I will ever back one of their kickstarter projects again.
jacobus wrote: So not voting is implied consent? Not really sure how that works, but I'm glad he's got a shovel with which to dig his own hole.
If you don't vote, you don't care enough either way to express your opinion (or in a minority of cases you're away, etc. etc. and are thus entirely unaware as to whats going on). Personally, if I were Palladium I would operate under the same assumption (which is how the various facebook events I organize operate), if you don't care enough to give me a response one way or another I'm going to assume whatever is most convenient for me. Either that or they wanted to stoke the fires of nerdrage to see how many people wish them ill will lol. I guess that was confirmed given the post from Kevin or whomever that was posted earlier.
I voted yes, I can't wait to get my stuff, but I've waited this long already, an extra week or two won't kill me... besides that, I need more time to find space to store it
As a side note, despite the fact that I've been generally pro-Palladium/Ninja Divison for this project (as a further aside, I've never dealt with this company before and am entirely unfamiliar with their other products, etc.), I dont think I will ever back one of their kickstarter projects again.
I don't get why people who say yes are so optimistic that this will lead to just a week or two delay. Or that this is going to be the last screw up. I don't get any sense that Palladium understands the complexity of a major KS fulfillment on this scale. CMON has dedicated teams and experience doing this sort of thing, and it still can take them over a month. It doesn't help that Kevin's own words show that they repeatedly fail to understand how hard things are until they are neck deep in a problem. A couple of unpaid volunteers aren't going to hold out for multiple weeks of manual labor. They should be falling over themselves to let backers pick up their pledges at Gencon, as it would simplify their logistics and reduce their cost
If we don't call them on their BS as early as possible, we are just paving the way for them to go ahead and pull another fast one on us. I'm certain that two months into wave 1 fulfillment we'll get an update saying that "Gencon buzz was so great. We have had retailers demanding our product. For the good of the game we just need to delay the last half of the backer shipments to get these mouth watering minis out to stores."
Actually, it hit me the other day why they can't/don't want to fulfill backer orders at Gencon; they still have to mail stuff out.
Remember, of the 6 'expansions' in Wave One, only 4 of them will be at Gencon, meaning that they can't fully fulfill "Battle Cry" contributions, since those contain at least 2 of the missing ones (one of the Destroids and the Veritechs themselves).
So they'd need to track who picked up what, and then still spend money shipping them a couple of VT boxes/destroids, AND make sure their records are updated/accurate enough that they don't just mail out another big pile of swag on top of it.
Not saying it's a GOOD reason, that level of sophistication isn't impossible, but I can see why they wouldn't WANT to do it.
That at actually concerns me a little. You'd think that if they could sell those other two expansions at Gencon they would.
Even allowing people to just get the box set, would be beneficial though. It would probably reduce the package size and wait for the rest of the pledge significantly.
rigeld2 wrote: They could limit it to people who just pledged for the Box Set though.
All 200 of them? How many of those do you think will actually be attending Gencon? "Hey guys, some people can pick up their orders... about 4% of the backers..."
Plus, that assumes that they all paid, and non of them got VT or Destroid add ons, or upgraded to a Battle Cry. So it could be 200, it could be, like, 20 guys/gals. Not worth the trouble, extra shenanigans.
Edit: Given that some of the RDF stuff (including the VTs) went into production late, it may be possible that they won't be able to ship to backers other than the First Contact folks until container 2 arrives. Given that one of the two are the VTs, obviously they'll have to have SOME on hand, but I'm guessing they went into production late enough that they expect to only have enough on hand to stuff into Core boxes, but not enough to get into expansion boxes.
Forar wrote: Actually, it hit me the other day why they can't/don't want to fulfill backer orders at Gencon; they still have to mail stuff out.
Remember, of the 6 'expansions' in Wave One, only 4 of them will be at Gencon, meaning that they can't fully fulfill "Battle Cry" contributions, since those contain at least 2 of the missing ones (one of the Destroids and the Veritechs themselves).
So they'd need to track who picked up what, and then still spend money shipping them a couple of VT boxes/destroids, AND make sure their records are updated/accurate enough that they don't just mail out another big pile of swag on top of it.
Not saying it's a GOOD reason, that level of sophistication isn't impossible, but I can see why they wouldn't WANT to do it.
They don't want to deliver to backers at GC because they ALREADY have the money of those people - they're no longer important, they're just an annoying obligation at this point.
Plus, some of the true short-sighted fanatical backers will STILL buy a set, either because they think they can on load their backer version on eBay, or just because they can't wait.
rigeld2 wrote: They could limit it to people who just pledged for the Box Set though.
All 200 of them? How many of those do you think will actually be attending Gencon? "Hey guys, some people can pick up their orders... about 4% of the backers..."
Plus, that assumes that they all paid, and non of them got VT or Destroid add ons, or upgraded to a Battle Cry. So it could be 200, it could be, like, 20 guys/gals. Not worth the trouble, extra shenanigans.
Edit: Given that some of the RDF stuff (including the VTs) went into production late, it may be possible that they won't be able to ship to backers other than the First Contact folks until container 2 arrives. Given that one of the two are the VTs, obviously they'll have to have SOME on hand, but I'm guessing they went into production late enough that they expect to only have enough on hand to stuff into Core boxes, but not enough to get into expansion boxes.
Hey - I'm not saying it'd be a large percentage, but saying "NO PICKUPZ" is different from saying "A very limited number of backers can pick up because we are going to have a limited selection of product."
The latter is perfectly fine with me, regardless of the number.
I just think it'd be more trouble than its worth. When you're talking about that small a percentage of the population, it's just going to become a hassle when some percentage of the remainder only read "pick ups at Gencon!" and you have to explain to a couple dozen pissed off nerds that they need to fully read the updates, not just skim them.
Honestly, if I were going, I'd end up pondering pitching them $10 or whatever they're charging just to get a copy of the rule book (which is apparently being sold separately? WTF?) for scanning and distribution 'accidentally leaving on my drop box with a shocking lack of security'.
I will agree that that is a bit odd really, the pool of people who would be eligible to pick up their pledge at Gencon would already be smaller than the amount of product that they have available. The pool of people that would actually be present at Gencon to pick up their pledges would be even smaller.
If I was them, I would give say a four hour window on the first day of Gencon in which backers can pick up their pledge (with a government issued photo ID to prevent ninjas,etc), after which point it becomes available for purchase by the general public. This way those who really want their stuff and will be in attendance can get it, and they will still be able to sell to the general public. It allows them to do right by some of their backers while letting them do whatever it is they want to do.
Or you do it like every other pre-order/kickstarter I've ever seen: you have to notify Palladium you're picking it up first so they have a list, or so sad, too bad. It wouldn't be that hard.
vitae_drinker wrote: Or you do it like every other pre-order/kickstarter I've ever seen: you have to notify Palladium you're picking it up first so they have a list, or so sad, too bad. It wouldn't be that hard.
Except it's Palladium. You'd have to notify them via fax, snail mail, or telex.
And I've got to say, there are 3 people I'm feeling really sorry for right now.
Those 3 who unfortunately went in for the "Bursting Point" level - a $3,500 pledge for a painted copy of the boxed game, Rick Hunter, and "Battlecry" level bonuses which "will ship after other rewards."
wow, bet that smarts now!
Disclaimer - I don't actually believe that Palladium will make them wait until after all other pledges have shipped. Once all models are available, they might as well send them to whatever "studio" painter they are going to use - meaning they will probably be shipped to the backers before I get my hands on my SDF-1.
rigeld2 wrote: They could limit it to people who just pledged for the Box Set though.
All 200 of them? How many of those do you think will actually be attending Gencon? "Hey guys, some people can pick up their orders... about 4% of the backers..."
Plus, that assumes that they all paid, and non of them got VT or Destroid add ons, or upgraded to a Battle Cry. So it could be 200, it could be, like, 20 guys/gals. Not worth the trouble, extra shenanigans.
Edit: Given that some of the RDF stuff (including the VTs) went into production late, it may be possible that they won't be able to ship to backers other than the First Contact folks until container 2 arrives. Given that one of the two are the VTs, obviously they'll have to have SOME on hand, but I'm guessing they went into production late enough that they expect to only have enough on hand to stuff into Core boxes, but not enough to get into expansion boxes.
I don't understand why people will pay PB's over priced prices when they can pre-order them for around the same price as the kickstarter prices or even cheaper (main game) ?
I only just started attending (and working) conventions last year, but from what I've seen, people get kind of swept up in it all. They're finally there! They have disposable income on hand, and they see hot new products and unique stuff they might not find anywhere else.
Even at a price premium, the chance to have it NOW (even before the Kickstarter backers get theirs! A risky but potentially viable angle to take when selling!) will appeal to some people. Especially those with enough nostalgia to be intrigued, but not enough interest to have gotten into the KS or read up much about it. Or were short on funds last year, and want to 'get in on the ground floor!'
Because we all know how effective being an early adopter is. ;-)
Why limit it to only people who pledged for the box set? Just make it "If you preordered, get on this list if you're at gen Con and we'll have one copy of the base game for you to pick up." You cross that part of their pledge as completed. Then they bring what they wanted to sell, plus enough to cover the sign ups. Boom, done. Easy peasy.
Forar wrote: I only just started attending (and working) conventions last year, but from what I've seen, people get kind of swept up in it all. They're finally there! They have disposable income on hand, and they see hot new products and unique stuff they might not find anywhere else.
Even at a price premium, the chance to have it NOW (even before the Kickstarter backers get theirs! A risky but potentially viable angle to take when selling!) will appeal to some people. Especially those with enough nostalgia to be intrigued, but not enough interest to have gotten into the KS or read up much about it. Or were short on funds last year, and want to 'get in on the ground floor!'
Because we all know how effective being an early adopter is. ;-)
Those poor bastards.
Well a few people I know who buy Convention early releases for resale or to keep said they are not even going to touch the Robotech stuff since its already gotten such bad press, that and they saw the pictures of the items, and how they are being boxed to be shipped.
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vitae_drinker wrote: Why limit it to only people who pledged for the box set? Just make it "If you preordered, get on this list if you're at gen Con and we'll have one copy of the base game for you to pick up." You cross that part of their pledge as completed. Then they bring what they wanted to sell, plus enough to cover the sign ups. Boom, done. Easy peasy.
because each set picked up by a backer is less money they will make, you think they won't release to retail before all backers get theirs? they have already promised delivery in September to retail, not too mention the pre-orders on their own site.
Okay, mixed / confused messages on why Kevin is even posing a vote since he only wants to "force" participation.
Only self-serving reasonable purpose of doing it (love no response = yes) is to show "reasonable" permission from the backers to deviate from the original agreement that first receipt is to the backers. At least it gives some evidence of "due diligence" no matter how farcical so the threatened lawsuits can have a little shakier ground.
I will still vote "no" I do not want to reward bad behavior no matter how slight.
They have our money, they have their eye on getting MOAR!
Tempted to drop by in person and negotiate "volunteer" packing... it wont cost them... much. I could take a hit for the team and ensure that systems for error-proofing are in place.
(Please may they at least have a scale to weigh the package to ensure everything is in it).
Sprue trimming / reduction may be a nightmare in itself.
Forar can come along and "chew" on them (Palladium not the sprues). (Love that avatar)
vitae_drinker wrote: Why limit it to only people who pledged for the box set? Just make it "If you preordered, get on this list if you're at gen Con and we'll have one copy of the base game for you to pick up." You cross that part of their pledge as completed. Then they bring what they wanted to sell, plus enough to cover the sign ups. Boom, done. Easy peasy.
That requires an organized effort and willingness to deal with the inevitable problems.
PB doesn't strike me as the most organized organization.
Talizvar wrote: Okay, mixed / confused messages on why Kevin is even posing a vote since he only wants to "force" participation.
Only self-serving reasonable purpose of doing it (love no response = yes) is to show "reasonable" permission from the backers to deviate from the original agreement that first receipt is to the backers. At least it gives some evidence of "due diligence" no matter how farcical so the threatened lawsuits can have a little shakier ground.
I will still vote "no" I do not want to reward bad behavior no matter how slight.
They have our money, they have their eye on getting MOAR!
Tempted to drop by in person and negotiate "volunteer" packing... it wont cost them... much. I could take a hit for the team and ensure that systems for error-proofing are in place.
(Please may they at least have a scale to weigh the package to ensure everything is in it).
Sprue trimming / reduction may be a nightmare in itself.
Forar can come along and "chew" on them (Palladium not the sprues). (Love that avatar)
They are going to have bigger problems on their hands since did you see the pictures where how the product is being packed?
I didn't back this because I'm incredibly familiar with Palladium, their reputation and their absolute lack of anything even remotely resembling ethics, and I won't ever grace Kevin with a red nickel of my money, ever again.
That said, as backers, you might consider voting Yes on the Gencon vote for one simple reason: it would not surprise me in the least if they have blown most/all of their Kickstarter money already, and they need the Gencon cash to pay for shipping to backers. PB's lack of accounting acumen is legendary (google "crisis of treachery" at some point if you're unfamiliar with the story). It wouldn't be the first time a Kickstarter project needed to do something like that (although it might be the biggest) and it is totally the kind of situation that Palladium would find themselves in through incompetence and/or malfeasance.
vitae_drinker wrote: Why limit it to only people who pledged for the box set? Just make it "If you preordered, get on this list if you're at gen Con and we'll have one copy of the base game for you to pick up." You cross that part of their pledge as completed. Then they bring what they wanted to sell, plus enough to cover the sign ups. Boom, done. Easy peasy.
That requires an organized effort and willingness to deal with the inevitable problems.
PB doesn't strike me as the most organized organization.
Granted it does require a modicum of capability and competence, two things Palladium staff lacks.
I didn't back this because I'm incredibly familiar with Palladium, their reputation and their absolute lack of anything even remotely resembling ethics, and I won't ever grace Kevin with a red nickel of my money, ever again.
That said, as backers, you might consider voting Yes on the Gencon vote for one simple reason: it would not surprise me in the least if they have blown most/all of their Kickstarter money already, and they need the Gencon cash to pay for shipping to backers. PB's lack of accounting acumen is legendary (google "crisis of treachery" at some point if you're unfamiliar with the story). It wouldn't be the first time a Kickstarter project needed to do something like that (although it might be the biggest) and it is totally the kind of situation that Palladium would find themselves in through incompetence and/or malfeasance.
the Crisis of treachery was a big joke, if anybody bothered to read the police report and the DA's report it was a lot less then Kevin told his fan boyz, and it was not quite what he said it was, since very little cash if any was stolen.
That said, as backers, you might consider voting Yes on the Gencon vote for one simple reason: it would not surprise me in the least if they have blown most/all of their Kickstarter money already, and they need the Gencon cash to pay for shipping to backers.
This comes up every so often.
All told, this project will come to around 40 sprues to cover the figures.
Wave 1 accounts for 12 of them, off the top of my head.
If they're already out of money, the whole project is dead and we might as well start sharpening our pitchforks and google map'ing the route to their offices.
That said, as backers, you might consider voting Yes on the Gencon vote for one simple reason: it would not surprise me in the least if they have blown most/all of their Kickstarter money already, and they need the Gencon cash to pay for shipping to backers.
This comes up every so often.
All told, this project will come to around 40 sprues to cover the figures.
Wave 1 accounts for 12 of them, off the top of my head.
If they're already out of money, the whole project is dead and we might as well start sharpening our pitchforks and google map'ing the route to their offices.
Could "Crisis of Treachery part two" be in Palladiums future?
I was on FotM discussing how many yes votes are out of wanting this to be over and that they call BS on it. One poster asked for proof. I showed him empirical proof. As soon as I posted what he asked for he suddenly has to go. Talk about sticking your head in the sand. Kevin Semenbieda really is the Jim Jones of gaming. Guess he really did make an impact in the industry. He has a collection of very sad individuals.
Cypher-xv wrote: I was on FotM discussing how many yes votes are out of wanting this to be over and that they call BS on it. One poster asked for proof. I showed him empirical proof. As soon as I posted what he asked for he suddenly has to go. Talk about sticking your head in the sand. Kevin Semenbieda really is the Jim Jones of gaming. Guess he really did make an impact in the industry. He has a collection of very sad individuals.
As long as he has fan boyz willing to drink the Kool-Aid he will continue to do what he does, even though its killing the company until another crisis of treachery or whatever.
Although Kevin might want to start keeping track of his lies since he might be tripping up overt hem here soon.
Before he left he posted a link to a video of the dark wing duck theme. What the heck was that all about?lol It's the fact that some fanboys suddenly lose all sense of logic and go into ignoring you or atttacking you. Someone needs to make a documentary on these sad individuals. It should be called "How to Chase Away Girls".
I'm done with the FB page, it's just stupid and I've had it with the trolling. In fact I think I've had enough with the entire project. Palladium has slowly strangled the life out of something I enjoyed for nearly 3 decades and that takes dedication, even GW hasn't managed to get me to quit their miniatures entirely. Kevin is king of the donkey caves and sadly he's never going to distance himself from the IP and I'm just fed up with him, his pathetic company, and fanboys beyond words. It's been a long ride but I'm done with anything ever related to macros/robotech, all my models, books, and dvds are in the trash.
I'll still be on dakka plenty just not this thread.
paulson games wrote: I'm done with the FB page, it's just stupid and I've had it with the trolling. In fact I think I've had enough with the entire project. Palladium has slowly strangled the life out of something I enjoyed for nearly 3 decades and that takes dedication, even GW hasn't managed to get me to quit their miniature entirely. Kevin is king of the donkey caves and sadly he's never going to distance himself from the IP and I'm just fed up with him and his pathetic fanboys beyond words. It's been a long ride but with anything ever related to macros/robotech, all my models, books, and dvds are in the trash.
I'll still be on dakka plenty just not this thread.
I wonder how much HG got from RT, and if it makes up for the bad feelings killing their own KS?
2012 post on the Paizo forums: "They held an in house poll where they asked their fans and mostly only their fans what they would like to see changed. Of course the results favored the "nothing changing anything" category. When their poll says that only 1% want to see a rules revison well I call that a biased poll to say the least. Im still a fam somewhat and may still get books later. Yet Im not swalling what Kevin tells me anymore without questioning it."
ced1106 wrote: 2012 post on the Paizo forums: "They held an in house poll where they asked their fans and mostly only their fans what they would like to see changed. Of course the results favored the "nothing changing anything" category. When their poll says that only 1% want to see a rules revison well I call that a biased poll to say the least. Im still a fam somewhat and may still get books later. Yet Im not swalling what Kevin tells me anymore without questioning it."
Long story short, Palladium had a freelancer write a zombie survival game, Kevin got the first draft, rewrote quite a bit of it, took all the credit, and then stiffed the writer. As I understand it.
vitae_drinker wrote: Long story short, Palladium had a freelancer write a zombie survival game, Kevin got the first draft, rewrote quite a bit of it, took all the credit, and then stiffed the writer. As I understand it.
And here's a quote from an RPG.net thread -- in 2011:
"Can I ask a serious question? Why does it matter how KS manages PB? It's his, I don't believe there are any share holders. He can run it into the ground, ask for donations, put the books into a shredder, blast them to the moon, or whatever. So what if the company could have been run better and produced better books? The same can be said for a lot of companies. I've been gaming since 76 or 77, I've seen the rise and fall of TSR, SPI, Metagaming, Yaquinto (remember Man, Myth, and Magic? I do), Leading Edge, FASA, Avalon Hill, Pacesetter, GDW, and plenty of others. They died almost always as the result of bad financial management (TSR especially, and I mean, really, really bad to the tune of tens of millions of dollars and hundreds of people losing their jobs).
He's been doing it his way for 30 years, he is not going to change now. He has a vision, perhaps a spectacularly bad one in your opinion, but it's his and he seems intent on sticking to it. If he asks for another round of donations in 1, 5, or 10 years, does it matter? Those who gave the last time did so voluntarily. It's between him and the donors. It doesn't matter if he whinges, whines, moans, blames others, or whatever. It is what is and is unlikely to change for the better."
THIS. I wouldn't say I'm new to ttg or fandoms but interacting with some of the palladium/RT fans can be very sad at times. It's the first time I've ever thought maybe the really really negative geek stereotypes are probably true
THIS. I wouldn't say I'm new to ttg or fandoms but interacting with some of the palladium/RT fans can be very sad at times. It's the first time I've ever thought maybe the really really negative geek stereotypes are probably true
They're like a damned cult - and a particularly unpleasant one at that. If they kowtow hard enough do they get some KS handies or something?
So this showed up on Mike's Facebook Robotech group. The files will apparently be kept up until midnight Tuesday so you may want to download them quickly but what we have is a a set of playtest rules dated from May 2013. I'm sure there will have been many revisions since than (after all Kev needs to get his glue high from changing around the copy in each of his books) but it at least gives us an idea of what the rules may look like when we finally get them.
That said, as backers, you might consider voting Yes on the Gencon vote for one simple reason: it would not surprise me in the least if they have blown most/all of their Kickstarter money already, and they need the Gencon cash to pay for shipping to backers. PB's lack of accounting acumen is legendary (google "crisis of treachery" at some point if you're unfamiliar with the story). It wouldn't be the first time a Kickstarter project needed to do something like that (although it might be the biggest) and it is totally the kind of situation that Palladium would find themselves in through incompetence and/or malfeasance.
Running out of money? I find that a little tough to -- oh, wait.
Christian Bleier about 11 hours ago:
To anyone here claiming this is just because we are unhappy with the delays,
THIS IRE WAS NEVER ABOUT THE DELAYS!
I went into this kickstarter fully aware that it has a very high likelyhood of being late and I have no issue with that fact. I also have no basic issue with the splitting in two waves, but I have some issue with how it is handled, but more about that later.
It is about the dishonest statements and broken promises during the kickstarter aftermath. First, it was always the understanding, that kickstarter backers would get the product first, even before the kickstarter started. Then we have the whole issue with the lets say it politely, overly optimistic estimates. Quite frankly the estimates were unrealistic to begin with but the claims shortly after the end that stuff will be "most likely" send out early? yeah that was a straight up lie. but fine I give that one as overenthusiasm. But then Deadlines were kept being touted and missed and getting any acknowledgement and new (similarly unrealistic) estimates was like pulling teeth. I didn't care enough at that time to post about it (I did once, I think) but it left a sour taste. Then we had the whole issue with "spartangate" about the lacking quality of the sculpts as well as the needlessly complex models. I had other things going on at that time so I didn't find the time to voice my displeasure then. And now we have the production models where we have models with extra parts that weren't needed and parts that without them that would have been needed (seperate missile covers on spartan and tomahawk and the engine/stabilizer assembly on the guardian come to mind) and we still have issues with the gaps and casting quality. The models are not nearly at the quality level we were promised. And now the whole issue with the gencon sales and that sham of a vote. I like to call those 2 updates "Update 148: the final insult" and "Update 149: The final insult 2 - yes, we can be even worse". That is the proverbial straw that broke the camels back.
About the vote specifically, this is an attempt at emotional blackmail and a transparent attempt at blame shifting, nothing more, nothing less. The Vote was rigged from the get go, which I consider an inexcusable breach of trust and supremely insulting. The emotional blackmail part comes in play every time he needs to remind of the "importance" of gencon quietly blaming *us* in case gencon won't be as successful (it won't be) as he wishes. And then, the MOST important aspect is the blame shifting. This is a win/win situation for him and lose/lose for us. Because, right now, it is still uncertain if he will have *any* product to sell at gencon. But either way he can point to *us* as the culprit. If he has product and sells it it was with "permission" (regardless how rigged the process was) of the "loyal" backers, but if he doesn't have product to sell, he can shift blame to the "vocal minority" as an excuse at gencon (he would have loved to sell, but didn't want to upset the critics so much). Regardless of the outcome of the sale, the result is a "community" that is fundamentally split and he has someone else to blame, just not himself himself.
This is about broken promises, mismanagement, unethical business practices, extremely dysfunctional communication and a supremely slimy attempt at blame shifting. The delays have nothing to do with it, at all.
As for the future of the game, I think it is DOA. Word is already spreading like wildfire about their mismanagement of this kickstarter and the fact that you can already preorder items for less then kickstarter prices doesn't bode well either. The issues are the demonstrated inability to properly support your project, the questionable quality of your models and the complete lack of information about the rules. another issue is also your insistance of treating gencon as the only PR outlet worth a damn, but that is a serious mistake. The majority of "buzz" is generated through strong presence online, on forums, on blogs, by youtubers and social media. Also, if you consider cons, just focusing on one accomplishes exactly what? This are not the 80's anymore where there only really was gencon. Gaming is much further spread now. There are countless cons now and you ignore all of them except gencon? how smart... If gencon sales are what makes or breaks your game, you have much, MUCH bigger issues than you imagine.
As for gencon, show of a production box, have demos, preorders and give away some miniatures and raffle off a few copies, but selling them,? Hell no.
Now here are my 2 cents about *why* he wants to sell it. I suspect they are out of money. They need the sales to finance shipping of the first wave. That also doesn't bode well for the second wave, considering that the first wave only consists of about 1/3 of the necessary sprues, I don't think they are actually able to make them at this point. This is the issue I have about wave 2. I don't think we will see it in 2015 at all, if ever.
As a backer from germany, I'm even more concerned about the total lack of information about the shipping procedures and I seriously question if the UK distributor that is supposed to send the packages out even exists. I have serious doubts we will get any shipment this year, if at all, especially if my suspicion about their finances is remotely accurate.
I really regret backing this now and I would prefer a refund, so I can finally be done with this disaster.
paulson games wrote: I'm done with the FB page, it's just stupid and I've had it with the trolling. In fact I think I've had enough with the entire project. Palladium has slowly strangled the life out of something I enjoyed for nearly 3 decades and that takes dedication, even GW hasn't managed to get me to quit their miniatures entirely. Kevin is king of the donkey caves and sadly he's never going to distance himself from the IP and I'm just fed up with him, his pathetic company, and fanboys beyond words. It's been a long ride but I'm done with anything ever related to macros/robotech, all my models, books, and dvds are in the trash.
I'll still be on dakka plenty just not this thread.
Well can I have your stuff?
I have already mentally written off my money in Robowreck as one of my poorer choices. If I get any of my figures I will be amazed.
Between the actions of Palladium and Harmony Gold they seem to be doing the best to make GW executives look to be extremely sharp business operators
schmoozies wrote: So this showed up on Mike's Facebook Robotech group. The files will apparently be kept up until midnight Tuesday so you may want to download them quickly but what we have is a a set of playtest rules dated from May 2013. I'm sure there will have been many revisions since than (after all Kev needs to get his glue high from changing around the copy in each of his books) but it at least gives us an idea of what the rules may look like when we finally get them.
In the name of all that is holy, if this is another of Mike's personalized 'totally just as good as the real rules, if not better' rules sets, I will not be held accountable for my actions.
*opens first file, sees assorted different art pieces on printable/foldable 'standees'*
Not a good sign here, folks.
Though the squadron card file is using the old points values, so that's a bit more heartening.
"Support You can’t buy Destroid support force cards to go with Valkyrie core force cards, and vice versa. Mixing of Destroid and Valkyrie mecha in a squadron is not allowed."
OMG FORCE BUILDING IS SERIOUS BUSINESS!
Maybe I want my Armoured VTs working with the Destroids! I'm a force builder on the edge, don't push me man!
The reinforcement rules seem like they could be obnoxious in large scale games.
The RDF's balancing 'faction ability' doesn't seem nearly as useful, but that might just be my reading on it. Getting an extra attack versus getting a pile of units back (with proper positioning at least)?
Character creation: having mech piloting cost points basically means low level characters are strictly worse than just taking the base mech itself, but a couple of extra levels in place can bump them up with some pretty solid bonuses. Be interesting to see how that weighs out. 5-20 points just to put a 'name' on a mech seems a touch excessive.
schmoozies wrote: So this showed up on Mike's Facebook Robotech group. The files will apparently be kept up until midnight Tuesday so you may want to download them quickly but what we have is a a set of playtest rules dated from May 2013. I'm sure there will have been many revisions since than (after all Kev needs to get his glue high from changing around the copy in each of his books) but it at least gives us an idea of what the rules may look like when we finally get them.
In the name of all that is holy, if this is another of Mike's personalized 'totally just as good as the real rules, if not better' rules sets, I will not be held accountable for my actions.
I couldn't force my way through Mike's rules fanfiction.
Was his stuff just as Simbiedaish with the ®'s and such?
Not quite as hardcore, but you could tell he was a Battletech player at a glance. And I don't even play Battletech.
I've skimmed the rules.
There are... the expected problems/concerns/nitpicks.
I am sincerely hoping the last 14 months (far as I can tell, the books only actually went to production last week) have led to some streamlining/improvements, but won't be able to give them a more thorough read for at least a day or two.
Forar wrote: Not quite as hardcore, but you could tell he was a Battletech player at a glance. And I don't even play Battletech.
I've skimmed the rules.
There are... the expected problems/concerns/nitpicks.
I am sincerely hoping the last 14 months (far as I can tell, the books only actually went to production last week) have led to some streamlining/improvements, but won't be able to give them a more thorough read for at least a day or two.
I was just wondering if those were real rules, or if they were fan-faction from a fan-friend. Because there's no point to reading "Mike's Homebrewed Rules v7.5". At least not as something to judge Robotech Fiasco Tactics.
The points line up (Mike changed them), they're consistent (at a glance, at least) with the rules overview we got during the campaign, etc.
If they're a fake, someone spent a lot of time on whipping them up. The rules themselves are like 41 pages long. That's a high bar to clear just for some trolling.
Palladium will always have a soft spot in my heart, since The Mechanoid Invasion was the first scifi RPG I ever owned and played (some). And later I also bought a bunch of Robotech RPG stuff in the late '80s when it premiered.
However, I didn't back this KS because of the other K.S. I don't think he's a bad guy. I just think he hasn't changed in 30 years, and still operates exactly like a guy printing games on newspaper stock on his own out of his garage. The trouble is that the business, budgets and expectations have obviously gotten much larger, and there are many more stakeholders.
But neither he nor his behavior is never going to change. All you have to do is look at his RPG system to see that. The guy is amazingly stuck in his ways -- from a design and business standpoint -- and those ways are rooted in the early '80s.
A couple friends of mine are backers. I hope they get their stuff and that it's to the quality they expected.
Also, despite being pretty well behaved, it took a mere 2 days for their own conversations regarding the update to get locked on the PB forums.
Man, if they think that was heated or mean, they are in for a rude awakening if they ever stumble over here.
And yes, I'm aware that they know of Dakka and other forums/threads. I just don't think they really bother swinging by all that often. We already know they don't bother with the comments or their own forums all that often, I doubt other sites rank very highly on their priority list either.
Edit2: So, was this a release by you, Mike? Since I'm no longer a member, I just have schmoozies post to go on, which doesn't identify who put the files out. Is this something they finally gave you permission for, or did a playtester go 'off the reservation'?
schmoozies wrote: So this showed up on Mike's Facebook Robotech group. The files will apparently be kept up until midnight Tuesday so you may want to download them quickly but what we have is a a set of playtest rules dated from May 2013. I'm sure there will have been many revisions since than (after all Kev needs to get his glue high from changing around the copy in each of his books) but it at least gives us an idea of what the rules may look like when we finally get them.
Also, despite being pretty well behaved, it took a mere 2 days for their own conversations regarding the update to get locked on the PB forums.
Man, if they think that was heated or mean, they are in for a rude awakening if they ever stumble over here.
And yes, I'm aware that they know of Dakka and other forums/threads. I just don't think they really bother swinging by all that often. We already know they don't bother with the comments or their own forums all that often, I doubt other sites rank very highly on their priority list either.
Edit2: So, was this a release by you, Mike? Since I'm no longer a member, I just have schmoozies post to go on, which doesn't identify who put the files out. Is this something they finally gave you permission for, or did a playtester go 'off the reservation'?
Not mine, I have a lot more recent and prettier stuff now. If I was allowed to share you guys would be the second group to see a link to the rules. I'd have it out all over the place. As it is I believe that this was a playtester that leaked them and left it up for just a day to try to escape view from above.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Note, I think that the picture and unit files were created by the playtester himself, hence the reason for the dates.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As a side note they know more about these forums from backers than from ever looking themselves
It would also explain the seemingly random artwork used for them.
It'd make sense for a playtest package to have something to playtest with (and having the stats on the back is a good idea while people are still getting used to them), but the images were so disparate I figured some random guy must've done them up. I mean, surely Palladium wouldn't just Google Image Search for stuff on the property they're working on.
Apparently I was half right.
Whelp, they're out in the wild now. It'll be interesting to see what the opinion is, and what the reaction/response is.
We're four fething weeks from Gencon. Their attempts to keep the rules under wraps is about to run out, whether they like it or not.
I know you're with us on this one, just saying it again out loud, so to speak, that it's simply baffling why they even bother.
I let them know the cat is out of the bag and have been using it to push for more releases. They won't release the rules if they plan on selling the rulebook at GenCon but that does not mean we can't get more of some other stuff.
Mike1975 wrote: I let them know the cat is out of the bag and have been using it to push for more releases. They won't release the rules if they plan on selling the rulebook at GenCon but that does not mean we can't get more of some other stuff.
I don't think they have 2.0's version up, but Wyrd used to have a picture and 'fluff' removed version of the full Malifaux rules available for download on their website, and a version you could purchase for $15, along with the full giant picture, fluff and stat card filled version.
Despite having a legal download of the rules, I also bought the full 1.5 edition rule book, 2 copies of the mini book (much easier to flip through to look up a rule during gameplay) and more mini copies for friends.
Point being, as I think we're all in agreement, the rules aren't the selling point, the minis are, but even if the rules books ARE a selling point, you can still sell them. It's not just about being the only avenue to getting the info, but convenience of a 'dead tree' edition compared to even a fairly well bookmarked pdf.
Not that they're going to listen at this point, but I felt it was worth saying.
Err, again.
BrookM wrote: So, the rules are a mess and about to go on sale in four weeks?
Well, the rules from 14 months ago are kind of a mess, IMO.
... yeah the rules are probably a mess, but yes, they also go on sale in a month.
There were posted by the member for only a 24 hour period. I found out later that his name was attached to the account so he wanted to keep a low profile.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm sure someone can email you a copy.......
I would but I don't want people to get the wrong idea with my NDA
The ONLY thing I have received from PB that was in PDF format was a few force cards that they had in color and converted to B and W before sending to me. Go figure.
4 weeks, eh? Surely that means everything is on a boat in the water by now?
Because of course they wouldn't keep us in the dark about Yet Another Slip(tm)(R)(c).
rigeld2 wrote: 4 weeks, eh? Surely that means everything is on a boat in the water by now?
Because of course they wouldn't keep us in the dark about Yet Another Slip(tm)(R)(c).
I'm kind of looking forward to the point where they find that even though they took a big, steaming dump on their backers they'll still fail to get anything in time for Gen Con.
The "bad backers" will be blamed because they didn't clap loudly enough.
rigeld2 wrote: 4 weeks, eh? Surely that means everything is on a boat in the water by now?
Because of course they wouldn't keep us in the dark about Yet Another Slip(tm)(R)(c).
I'm kind of looking forward to the point where they find that even though they took a big, steaming dump on their backers they'll still fail to get anything in time for Gen Con.
Well, the container should be on the ship, and the ship leaving port sometime tomorrow, according to the latest information. So this week's update should either be joyously announcing the fact (though likely without any actual confirmation like the ship name/tracking number, cause you know, we have to trust J/W/K, they wouldn't mislead us). Or they'll be throwing someone under the bus, and it's not their fault that they've dicked around for 15 months, given the factory and shipping company an incredibly tight schedule, made promises based on that schedule, and fallen short when unexpected but routine circumstances eventuate. ie, business as usual at Palladium's House of Irresponsible Schedules.
Merijeek wrote: The "bad backers" will be blamed because they didn't clap loudly enough.
Yup, we're an insignificant minority, but we're also capable of destroying the release, the game line, and the company, because of our "negativity".
And that "negativity" is because we've been pointing out the many many many mis-steps Palladium have made on this project. Like you said, it's our fault for not believing in fairies (tales).
rigeld2 wrote: 4 weeks, eh? Surely that means everything is on a boat in the water by now?
Because of course they wouldn't keep us in the dark about Yet Another Slip(tm)(R)(c).
I'm kind of looking forward to the point where they find that even though they took a big, steaming dump on their backers they'll still fail to get anything in time for Gen Con.
Well, the container should be on the ship, and the ship leaving port sometime tomorrow, according to the latest information. So this week's update should either be joyously announcing the fact (though likely without any actual confirmation like the ship name/tracking number, cause you know, we have to trust J/W/K, they wouldn't mislead us). n..
Yeah, I know at least one KS that provided the tracking number for the ship.
Just saying.
Hell, it'd give them a way to mitigate things a bit. If something went wrong...they would be essentially blameless (except for their choosing Crazy Wang's Discount 50% Successful Shipping Company).
Although I can totally see on the Thursday update "GUESS WHAT? IT"S ON THE BOAT!!!!!" and then two weeks later something about "SOME NON-PB PINHEAD FORGOT TO PUT THE CONTAINER ON THE BOAT BUT WE'RE TOTALLY ABSENT OF RESPONSIBILITY BECAUSE WE FORGOT TO ASK!!!!" or something equally asinine.
The rules are kind of another sticking point. You'd think they would send out PDFs of the rules to the backers like mantic does but I'm not sure Palladium has heard of the word PDF.
Sining wrote: The rules are kind of another sticking point. You'd think they would send out PDFs of the rules to the backers like mantic does but I'm not sure Palladium has heard of the word PDF.
They're a small-time publisher trapped In an 80's time warp. Everyone knows the rule books are where the money is, baby! Yeah!
I wonder if Palladium is not releasing the rules as a PDF for the type of goofy, backward-thinking reasons they are so well known for, or is it maybe a screwy licensing/IP issue with Harmony Gold?
I remember reading something about Fantasy Flight having issues with releasing their Star Wars RPG rules as PDF, because Disney Law considered doing so as a different class of license. It may have been speculation- I honestly can't remember.
Palladium clearly has no idea how to make or promote or sell or play or assemble a table top miniatures game, but Harmony Gold doesn't seem to know how to let the Robotech license be used without sqeezing absolutely every potential nickel and dime out of it.
Have Palladium released anything substantial as PDF in the past?
Have they seriously never released anything electronically? Never?
Holy hell.
Well I shall certainly impose upon them with a strongly worded telegraph of inquiry as to their reasoning, and at utmost haste! Should I receive a reply any later than a fortnight, I shall simply be dashed. Dashed, I say.
(Watching these guys make a tabletop game is like watching my Grandma point her mouse at her monitor to "make the emails come on".)
Man, some of the KS backers are...somewhat challenged. Some guy voted Yes and then proceeded to write this...
A request with the Yes: Kickstarter backers should get something from the profits made from your GenCon sales. Surely you have a projection of what the profit will be. Make us feel again like the co-owners of this project. Granted, it may be a trifle, but it puts an action with the words.
"The product is Kevin's blood, sweat and tears, without him and Palladium this product doesn't get made."
I think with Kevin, this product doesn't get made. This product is less blood, sweat, and tears, then ass, bile, and poop.
Anyway, now that the ex-wife has sung, I wondered WTF Harmony Gold would have Palladium involved in the first place. I mean, the "Crisis of Treachery" clearly shows Palladium's lack of business skills, and that's even before you hear about how he treated freelancers who wrote for him.
Well, I finally checked the Harmony Gold forums, and they're not getting love from Robotech fans, either. This *locked* thread has fans pointing out that HG hasn't released much new stuff. I guess you could argue that Robotech died out a long time ago (that's what I thought!), but the two Robotech KS project fundings evidently show otherwise. And, of course, had HG stayed competitive with its franchise when Robotech *was* popular, they could be a major company now. Sorta like a certain RPG company we've been talking about...!
Note: The Kevin in the thread OP isn't Kevin Siembieda, but a staff member of HG .
Sining wrote: Man, some of the KS backers are...somewhat challenged. Some guy voted Yes and then proceeded to write this...
A request with the Yes: Kickstarter backers should get something from the profits made from your GenCon sales. Surely you have a projection of what the profit will be. Make us feel again like the co-owners of this project. Granted, it may be a trifle, but it puts an action with the words.
*facepalm*
Ah, yes. If they spread all the INCOME from what they sell at Gencon, not just the profit, around the - what, 5.5-6K backers - we might just get 5c each! what a brilliant idea!
At this point, I just don't know if I want to go through KS to try and get my money back (obviously PB won't entertain that idea) or hold on, wait the remaining 18+ months for wave 2/3 to arrive and put all the special characters and SDF-1 that was my entire pledge on E-Bay and turn it all around. Either way, I'll probably make a loss, but at least I won't have to deal with PB ever again. models, my We'll be able to sell at Gencon because the backers told us we could. Oh yes, we rigged the vote.
Sining wrote: Man, some of the KS backers are...somewhat challenged. Some guy voted Yes and then proceeded to write this...
A request with the Yes: Kickstarter backers should get something from the profits made from your GenCon sales. Surely you have a projection of what the profit will be. Make us feel again like the co-owners of this project. Granted, it may be a trifle, but it puts an action with the words.
*facepalm*
I really don't get these delusional chumps who are saying "Sure, go ahead and sell it but to make it up to us you should [give us a whatever]."
How goddamned stupid do these people need to be to think something like that is going to actually happen?
fruitlewps wrote: They need to sell stuff at GenCon just to have enough money to ship our stuff out, they outta money!
That's been my guess for a while - that, or to pay for the actual Gen Con boot. Just don't let certain fan-friends hear you say that or they'll start hyperventilating.
But, you know, some things just can't be questioned.
Merijeek wrote: How goddamned stupid do these people need to be to think something like that is going to actually happen?
They pledged for this KS, didn't they?
I'm checking out the RPG.net reviews of the "newer" Robotech 2007 release, with "40% new material". One reviewer commented that the Palladium system didn't capture the anime drama like the RPG systems whose mechanics were made to fit the source material, not the other way around. Good point, although I don't remember how many RPG systems were doing that sort of thing at the time.
As someone that used to enjoy epic combat sessions with his RPG group when we played Rifts back in High School and for a few years after, the Palladium system has never been remotely 'fast paced'. It's a massive pile of opposed rolls and whittling down big numbers to more manageable numbers.
Love the Rifts setting, not a fan of the game mechanics/engine.
I never liked that fact that you had to check your physical attributes, skill levels, and like 5 different skills AND your Hand to Hand whether expert or martial arts or assassin or whatever just to figure out the correct strike, parry, and roll modifiers. Then if you were in a truck or piloting some mecha you had to check those abilites too.
Ah, yes. If they spread all the INCOME from what they sell at Gencon, not just the profit, around the - what, 5.5-6K backers - we might just get 5c each! what a brilliant idea!
At this point, I just don't know if I want to go through KS to try and get my money back (obviously PB won't entertain that idea) or hold on, wait the remaining 18+ months for wave 2/3 to arrive and put all the special characters and SDF-1 that was my entire pledge on E-Bay and turn it all around. Either way, I'll probably make a loss, but at least I won't have to deal with PB ever again. models, my We'll be able to sell at Gencon because the backers told us we could. Oh yes, we rigged the vote.
If you do find a way to get your money back, be sure to let us know.
Mike1975 wrote: I never liked that fact that you had to check your physical attributes, skill levels, and like 5 different skills AND your Hand to Hand whether expert or martial arts or assassin or whatever just to figure out the correct strike, parry, and roll modifiers. Then if you were in a truck or piloting some mecha you had to check those abilites too.
It was shortly after Rifts "peak" that wonderful spreadsheets became common, they were a godsend for their crazy rules. Remove some of the grunt work and it made them usable... again the user making up for the shortcomings.
Who am I to say anything, I used to play Rulesm... I mean "Rolemaster".
here was another backer who voted yes with his addendum added:
"Kenneth Johnson about 12 hours ago
Yes, with a caveat. For what it is worth, besides restricting the number of sets an individual can buy to one, have the individual sign a promise not to resell the game until at least your Fall release date. Will you have dishonesty? You could, but then peer pressure shaming also would occur. Most honest gamers hungry for the chance to just play and enjoy would sign such an agreement without a 2nd thought."
Asterios wrote: here was another backer who voted yes with his addendum added:
"Kenneth Johnson about 12 hours ago
Yes, with a caveat. For what it is worth, besides restricting the number of sets an individual can buy to one, have the individual sign a promise not to resell the game until at least your Fall release date. Will you have dishonesty? You could, but then peer pressure shaming also would occur. Most honest gamers hungry for the chance to just play and enjoy would sign such an agreement without a 2nd thought."
In response I'd like to point to my Unicorn Fart picture above.
Of course you also get:
"to all the disappointed backers (like myself) if say.......an extra set of both faction dice or maybe even command tokens were to fall in to backers boxes when shipped, or a similar gesture of "thank you for your support and sorry for the delays" would probably make lots of us feel better. "
Really? Has anyone ever seen any indication that a project, that has done everything it could to produce as cheaply as possible, is suddenly going to start handing out free stuff?
I don't know Merijeek. I think they should call McDonalds and work with them and place one or two free single serve ice cream coupons into each package. I'm sure McDonald's would make money since you never go there just for an ice cream.
If I were anywhere near the Midwest I'd volunteer simply to sabotage their packing efforts, pull a random part off a sprue here and there to make sure they have a proper customer service nightmare.
stanman wrote: If I were anywhere near the Midwest I'd volunteer simply to sabotage their packing efforts, pull a random part off a sprue here and there to make sure they have a proper customer service nightmare.
Nah. I think they're doing fine on their own.
KickTraq has HG's Robotech Academy ending at 81% of their goal, while KickSpy has it at 118% funded.
david lacina about 1 hour ago on RA
Because, ( and this is something that's funding investor trepidation) HG has a history of stalled out or horribly delayed projects at this point. In addition, while I understand their need and right to protect their I.P. Their actions in the fan community have been seen as very negative. This is what is known as karma hitting them in the butt a bit, and their presentation... Well it lacks confidence in themselves. (HG if you don't have a good pr firm why not? Call me. Or someone. Pay them. I'm not even joking. Hire community college kids from the local paras chapter if you have to...)
We need to respect that projects are in development hell all the time. Heck the Keaton batman movie was in development for 15 years. But by the same token maybe we also potentially have to look at the fact that this piece of I.p. Can't be resurrected at this point, because there's no real sustained interest in it past a few thousand fans. Else wise why is that shadow sequel sitting for 10 years... or sentinels for 25? We sort of have and DO support the brand, even though we never get that sequel.
This thing at current rates needs 5000 people to go through... Or all of us to triple our current pledges. RRT got 5000 people, many now with a bad taste towards the brand... Again HG do you see how your brand is being hurt by the folk in Westland? You need to address this.
stanman wrote: If I were anywhere near the Midwest I'd volunteer simply to sabotage their packing efforts, pull a random part off a sprue here and there to make sure they have a proper customer service nightmare.
They won't need help to do that, they can do it all on their own.
This far out Kicktraq isn't really all that indicative of anything resembling the final tally. The day to day counts can be interesting, and I'm not disputing that it may be close either way, just worth noting.
Forar wrote: This far out Kicktraq isn't really all that indicative of anything resembling the final tally. The day to day counts can be interesting, and I'm not disputing that it may be close either way, just worth noting.
However, without any stretch goals worth a damn I don't know what makes them think they'll make it.
The last 2 days they've gotten 23 whole backers, and today they got 22 - I'm not sure when the clock will turn over for Kicktraq.
I think they're just as oblivious as PB - "The last Robotech Kickstarter made a load of money! Quick, throw something together and we can all buy jet skis!
by the way if anybody thinks oh well were getting Kickstarter exclusives that others don't get, guess what there is only one potential kickstarter exclusive the SDF-1 all other exclusives are KS and Con exclusives, in fact the Cons might get more exclusives then we the backers get.
Sining wrote: To be honest, I'm hoping they don't make it but then again, potato salads can kickstart for tens of thousands of dollars, so who knows -_-
Yeah, I'm really hoping they some make it either. Mostly because I want them to demonstrate that they can't even break a promise successfully.
The SDF-1 and the Battlefoam bag are KS exclusives, if I'm not mistaken. The home page image for the bag doesn't say it, but it came up a few times around the campaign, and I believe it was verified in a newsletter or something. I believe the pallets of them that PB has are supposed to be the only ones, though I hope BF does use the same shapes for their custom trays.
I thought the objective packs were KS exclusive as well, but a glance through the updates shows that they're KS/Con exclusives.
So, yeah, So far, 2 KS exclusives (Bag, SDF-1), 2 Con Exclusives (Max, Miriya), and what, 6 KS/Con Exclusives? (Rick, Roy, Khyron, Miriya, Objective Pack 1 & 2)?
Until PB announces this year's con exclusives, of course.
I don't think the bfoam will be a KS exclusive at all. I'm pretty sure they'll sell it to normal consumers because that's how bfoam works. I don't think any of the bags they've ever offered were exclusive to any KS.
"The last six years have been a real renaissance for the Macross franchise in Japan. There has been an incredibly popular anime series, three movies, and seven games. The latest in the series is the incredibly ambitious Macross 30, a game that combines 30 years of Macross characters and lore into a new and original story. It was released late last month in Japan to modest critical and commercial success. Yet of all the titles brought to market in recent years, none of them have ever been released in America."
"Actually, the court ruling was that Tatsunoko held, and could only sell, distribution and merchandising rights. Harmony Gold is claiming Intellectual Property rights. That's illegal. Harmony Gold has claimed that the court ruling in Japan does not effect them, and so far only Hasbro has challenged them, and HG agreed to the Dismissal With Prejudice before their false claims could be disproven.
The simple fact is that the contract HG has is to distribute/merchandise the original Macross series only. They have merchandising but not distribution rights to the "Do You Remember Love" movie (if they had distro rights, they'd have made THAT the Robotech movie). They have no rights to the designs in the original series or any rights at all in respect to the subsequent series. The problem is that HG is claiming they own all rights to everything Macross. If that were true, they'd be making a fortune releasing the subsequent series. The simple fact that they are not is proof enough that they're full of it, even without the legal ruling. They are well aware of what they do and do not have the rights to. There's a reason every 'Robotech' followup has been based on Southern Cross and Mospeada rather than Macross.
Oh...and about Macross 7. The problem with Macross 7 is that to get the rights to Macross 7, you also have to buy the rights to the entire Fire Bomber library...priced separately. From what I've heard, the licensing fees for the Firebomber stuff is significantly higher than the fees for the Macross stuff. A similar problem was encountered in the domestic release of Kodomo no Omocha, where the main theme and certain pieces of music from individual episodes were licensed separately and thus couldn't be included in the US release."
I was screaming about that at the beginning of this and people got mad at me. I really think a decent court challenge from a japanese partner would snag the rights right our from under HG in US courts.
It is also super fishy how they have been avoiding the use of characters and certain non mechs.
Kendachi wrote: Hey, I've read the last update again, and I question this:
"We can’t ship what we estimate will be 7,000-9,000 packages (those add-ons and exclusives add up) in a few days"
I've never been accused of being the smartest guy on the internet, but... why so many more packages than backers? Retail? Something else?
Serious question.
It may be that they think not everything will fit in one box? Maybe they're going with a one box fits all, and if it doesn't get another one box fits all method of shipping?
Merijeek wrote: How goddamned stupid do these people need to be to think something like that is going to actually happen?
They pledged for this KS, didn't they?
I'm checking out the RPG.net reviews of the "newer" Robotech 2007 release, with "40% new material". One reviewer commented that the Palladium system didn't capture the anime drama like the RPG systems whose mechanics were made to fit the source material, not the other way around. Good point, although I don't remember how many RPG systems were doing that sort of thing at the time.
Kendachi wrote: Hey, I've read the last update again, and I question this:
"We can’t ship what we estimate will be 7,000-9,000 packages (those add-ons and exclusives add up) in a few days"
I've never been accused of being the smartest guy on the internet, but... why so many more packages than backers? Retail? Something else?
Serious question.
5,342 Backers
1300 Showdowns
185 Recklesses
Plus some people failed to pay, and some people bumped up a box or three.
Looking like they expect to just ship out each Battle Cry (and some add ons) in a standard sized box. If so, BS will have like 14-20 boxes going to him (12 BC's and a pile of add ons?), I'll have 8-10+, etc.
Though on the other hand, 10 flat rate boxes to Canada would be a hell of a lot of money, so that might not be it, or at least not entirely.
On further thought however, I'm left wondering how they have such a large range. They made the add on boxes, surely it shouldn't be hard to work out how much their standard box holds and extrapolate from there. As in, there can't be THAT many people with orders that break the mold. There's only so much variety possible with so few add ons, and I doubt many people bought an overwhelming number of Veritechs at that price, for example.
I could swear there was a message somewhere in the updates, newsletters or whatever that mentioned BF wasn't going to be mass producing the bags. Did an update scan, but didn't see anything there.
Forar wrote: I could swear there was a message somewhere in the updates, newsletters or whatever that mentioned BF wasn't going to be mass producing the bags. Did an update scan, but didn't see anything there.
so ? that would mean PB would honor their word, and we know how well they are at doing that now don't we ?
Forar wrote: I could swear there was a message somewhere in the updates, newsletters or whatever that mentioned BF wasn't going to be mass producing the bags. Did an update scan, but didn't see anything there.
so ? that would mean PB would honor their word, and we know how well they are at doing that now don't we ?
It didn't come across as 'omg exclusive we swear', more sounded like BF just couldn't be bothered.
Ugh, I'll have a glance, but it may be a moot point either way.
models, my 
