Vineheart01 wrote: Was Warp'eads ever their own datasheet? even in the old paperback (forget which gen it was before our dumpster 7th edition book) it was an upgrade option to a weirdboy.
I really wish they'd up the number of slots in a single detachment. This wasnt that big an issue in the past when everyone only had 1 battleforce option because things were expensive enough to make it difficult to even need more slots. But these days we have so many single models that are stupid cheap and HQs that feel mandatory so we cant use the optional ones easily. Probably the only thing i wish they'd adapt from age of sigmar is how armies are built.
Hell, as Admech i mostly bring my pteraxii because they fill slots i normally dont use and my other slots are full w/o being 2k lol
2nd edition we had zogwart HQ and I beleive warpead and minderz.. but I tossed all my old books out over a year ago.
Vineheart01 wrote: Buggies shouldnt have been on bases to begin with. None of them need it for stability reasons and thats the only reason vehicles ever had them.
Agree. That is the reason why I magnetized the bases on them so I can enjoy the buggies without it…
gungo wrote: 2nd edition we had zogwart HQ and I beleive warpead and minderz.. but I tossed all my old books out over a year ago.
Possessed Warphead and Minderz are from Freebooterz (RT). I loved Minderz as you got 2 beefy Orks in Power Armour. On the topic, I´d like Skumgrod back too. Imperial Advisor to my beloved Blood Axes was awesome.
Quite excited about the new Dok too. Holding fingers crossed for a 5+++ aura. I love my blobs and ways to preserve them as long as possible
Jidmah wrote: Why are having this argument again? This was clarified a few page ago with the same people.
Stompas can't be wholly within a 9" KFF bubble because wholly within means absolutely no part of a non-based model may stick out. Claiming that save without house-ruling it first is cheating. Adding a base to modify how your model plays is modeling for advantage which also is just a form of cheating.
If you want the full blown dakka gakshow on this topic, feel free to take it to YMDC, but as there is no ambiguity on this topic in regards to rules, let's not bring it up again.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tomsug wrote: It worth to ask them how they fit the Stompa in KFF bouble does anybody know some of them?
The simple answer is that almost no one is aware of this issue so they are most likely unknowingly playing it wrong. The battlewagon is a model that also is regularly affected by this problem and there are hundreds of battle reports and recorded videos out there where people are playing it wrong. Essentially every time someone is covering two battlewagons with a single KFF there is a good chance of one of them having some part outside of the 9" sphere.
Im going to contest your claim here entirely for learning purposes: the KFF isnt stated as a "bubble" in the rules that I could find. I always thought of it as a cylinder since it only states that the model has to be within 9" of the KFF bearing big mek. Therefore if no parts of your model are sticking out on a horizontal plane, they are covered by the KFF. Please inform me on where you found the rules of a KFF being a bubble and not only regarding horizontal distance. I can see it making sense from a "realistic" point of view since those kinds of things tend to function in a radius around a certain point but rules wise its not clear to me.
Jidmah wrote it there about 2 weeks ago. It' s a measuring base-to-hull issue:
“To be wholly within 9", every part of a model must be within 9". For models without a base, you measure to the hull, which is every part of a model. For models with a base, you only ever measure to the base, so if the base is within 9", it doesn't matter how much of a model is sticking out.”
Automatically Appended Next Post: Which is super crazy with Eldar ships on tiny round base…
Thats another thing thats annoying about bases, they constantly flipflop on whether the skimmer base matters or if its just a stand and not an actual base.
Most vehicles on such things have a rule saying ignore the base, but some dont. Its mega annoying.
pepi55 wrote: Im going to contest your claim here entirely for learning purposes: the KFF isnt stated as a "bubble" in the rules that I could find. I always thought of it as a cylinder since it only states that the model has to be within 9" of the KFF bearing big mek. Therefore if no parts of your model are sticking out on a horizontal plane, they are covered by the KFF. Please inform me on where you found the rules of a KFF being a bubble and not only regarding horizontal distance. I can see it making sense from a "realistic" point of view since those kinds of things tend to function in a radius around a certain point but rules wise its not clear to me.
It's in the core rules about measuring distances, and you are not allowed to ignore height when doing so.
To be within 9" of something, you need to measure from one model to another in a straight line - if one of the models is elevated (for example one is in a ruin and the other is not), you are to measure the diagonal line going up or down.
Relevant rule:
Distances are measured in inches (") between the closest points of the bases of the models you’re measuring to and from. If a model does not have a base, such as is the case with many vehicles, measure to the closest point of any part of that model; this is called measuring to the model’s hull. You can measure distances whenever you wish.
You might have the impression that you can ignore height because many rules like engagement range or heroic interventions have workarounds, but whenever you measure to anything, you always need to do so in all three dimensions. If a space marine captain is standing on the first level of a ruin, he will not be providing a unit of snipers on the third floor with re-rolls.
For a model to be wholly within of another model we have this rule:
If a rule says it affects units that are ‘wholly within’ then it only applies if every part of every model’s base (or hull) in that unit is within the specified distance.
So, since all KFF models are based, you pick the point closest to the stompa and every part of the stompa has to be with 9" of that point.
What I'm really hoping for is that he can give bionics to a unit, giving a 5++ without haviin to do kff, and that he can hopefully res models. Imagine if they could res the new squig riders
Measuring in 40k has never been infinite height, thats why really tall terrain is problematic and why theres weird workaround rules for engagement in 9th.
Remember in 8th a big ass Morkanaut could not legally melee something sitting on a ruin at the perfect height for its arm to easily swing at. Hell it was even such an issue that the Knights were given a special stratagem to attack upper levels.
Painboss i doubt would give 5++, as GW seems to refuse to give orks invuls outside of a KFF. More than likely its still a 6+++ aura with a selectable Core unit to get it buffed to 5+++ per command phase until the next command phase.
In all actuality, how much you wanna bet hes an apothecary clone with extra speed instead of a 3+ save? Can revive infantry or presumably the squigriders.
Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote: What I'm really hoping for is that he can give bionics to a unit, giving a 5++ without haviin to do kff, and that he can hopefully res models. Imagine if they could res the new squig riders
Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote: What I'm really hoping for is that he can give bionics to a unit, giving a 5++ without haviin to do kff, and that he can hopefully res models. Imagine if they could res the new squig riders
I can see him giving bionics/cybork body since his back if full of mechanical limbs...
Kaptin_Grubkrumpa wrote: So any speculations about what the painboss is going to do? Better FNP? Invuln?
They made a big deal about how his Soopa Legs give him the ability to keep up with the Squighog Riders. With that in mind he is probably fast as heck (since the Squighog riders are melee cavalry). I can see him filling the niche the old Painboy on Bike used to fill; he's tougher and he can run alongside your Warbikers or Stormboyz as well. I have seen someone mention on another forum that his "mask" might be a reimagining of an old Ork relic/upgrade that gave an aura of -1 leadership, but I don't know editions before 7th well enough to know if that is true. It would be interesting with this extremely fast and faceless butcher just sprinting at you, faster than a Warbike, would be terrifying to your average guardsman.
Okay, so if I had to put money down on what the new painboy would do. Based on the description his cyber demon legs lets him run fast, so probably an above average move speed and any advance roll can't be lower than a 4. It also mentioned he's the one who passes out cybork parts, even has some spares on the model. So likely he'll get the ability to pass out permanent upgrades to a unit or two much like Fabius or that necron dude. Probably a random chart with a mixture of movement, durability in the form of an after save and maybe if we're lucky a damage output increase like strength or ap increase. As well as standard painboy healing which may or may not change at the new codex.
Question:
I'am preparing for a tournament (september) and I'am really struggling with my armylist. I want to field 3 kill tanks (deathskulls) but not sure what to add. Probably no new codex at that time so got to make the best of it. I'am going to add the warboss on bike (relic, stratagem and warlord trait) and probably 3 small commando units for secondary objectives.
I got mek guns with smasha's if needed. Their great for deploying on an objective and nice damage output but not really flexible.
Got no shokkjump dragstas or megatrakk scrapjets but could go in that direction.
Big unit of boy's could work but I'am not a fan in combining them with 3 kill tanks. Either go big and get the green tide list of get something else.
Mega armour nobs are nice but not very fast. Could put them in the kill tanks though.
Also, how can I prevent the Drukhari armies from dancing around me and taking all the objectives?
Why would you field 3 killtanks as death skulls? the giga shoota has 30 shots, meaning they get more out of being Bad Moon, or in case you wanna cycle charge for the ram ability it has, then Blood axes.
Blood axes also gives you a nice +1 save at a distance.
The only reason id assume one would go deathskulls is if all 3 of your kill tanks run bursta cannons.
Your 3 killtanks needs to be in their own detatchment so deathskulls doesnt really do much for the killtanks id say.
Hitting on 4s (if you are close enough) rerolling 1s seem way better than what deathskulls would otherwise provide.
Beardedragon wrote: Why would you field 3 killtanks as death skulls? the giga shoota has 30 shots, meaning they get more out of being Bad Moon, or in case you wanna cycle charge for the ram ability it has, then Blood axes.
Blood axes also gives you a nice +1 save at a distance.
The only reason id assume one would go deathskulls is if all 3 of your kill tanks run bursta cannons.
Your 3 killtanks needs to be in their own detatchment so deathskulls doesnt really do much for the killtanks id say.
Hitting on 4s (if you are close enough) rerolling 1s seem way better than what deathskulls would otherwise provide.
Thanks for the input but that was not my question. I got 3 big blue ork tank deathskull conversions that I want to field (I'am going to field 1 big bursta and two giga shoota btw.) and I'am just simply looking for the best setup to deal with the current enemy armies out there. I know that this army is not going to win the tournament but it's nice to at least pack a punch or making sure that the enemy needs to work for it in order to have a good game. I'am trying to find the right balance between scoring objectives and damage output. Maybe this:
Patrol HQ: Ork boss warbike
HQ: Big mek forcefield (first turn use the stratagem to give everybody 5++ within 18 inch..)
TR: 1x unit grots
EL: 5 commando's
EL: 5 commando's
FA: 3x shokkjump dragstas
FA: 1x kopta with rokkits (great conversion so want to include it).
Beardedragon wrote: Why would you field 3 killtanks as death skulls? the giga shoota has 30 shots, meaning they get more out of being Bad Moon, or in case you wanna cycle charge for the ram ability it has, then Blood axes.
Blood axes also gives you a nice +1 save at a distance.
The only reason id assume one would go deathskulls is if all 3 of your kill tanks run bursta cannons.
Your 3 killtanks needs to be in their own detatchment so deathskulls doesnt really do much for the killtanks id say.
Hitting on 4s (if you are close enough) rerolling 1s seem way better than what deathskulls would otherwise provide.
Thanks for the input but that was not my question. I got 3 big blue ork tank deathskull conversions that I want to field (I'am going to field 1 big bursta and two giga shoota btw.) and I'am just simply looking for the best setup to deal with the current enemy armies out there. I know that this army is not going to win the tournament but it's nice to at least pack a punch or making sure that the enemy needs to work for it in order to have a good game. I'am trying to find the right balance between scoring objectives and damage output. Maybe this:
Patrol HQ: Ork boss warbike HQ: Big mek forcefield (first turn use the stratagem to give everybody 5++ within 18 inch..)
TR: 1x unit grots
EL: 5 commando's EL: 5 commando's
FA: 3x shokkjump dragstas FA: 1x kopta with rokkits (great conversion so want to include it).
Ive never fielded 3 kill tanks before because i dont own any, so i dont know what they work well with. I just figured that i would point out that deathskulls (maybe unless all 3 tanks are bursta kannon versions) work best as Bad moon or maybe blood axes which was the input i could give.
You said you were struggling with your army list, and when it comes to army lists, i would say detatchment rules (klan kulture) is also important to consider as that is going to dictate how the army as whole works. I cant help you much with the army as whole though. i think your army looks decent otherwise.
One thing i noted was that you said you would spend 3 CP to increase the KFF to 18 inches. but you already spend 6CP alone on bringing your 3 killtanks. thats 9 CP spend already that leaves little room for much else. just a heads up.
Beardedragon wrote: Why would you field 3 killtanks as death skulls? the giga shoota has 30 shots, meaning they get more out of being Bad Moon, or in case you wanna cycle charge for the ram ability it has, then Blood axes.
Blood axes also gives you a nice +1 save at a distance.
The only reason id assume one would go deathskulls is if all 3 of your kill tanks run bursta cannons.
Your 3 killtanks needs to be in their own detatchment so deathskulls doesnt really do much for the killtanks id say.
Hitting on 4s (if you are close enough) rerolling 1s seem way better than what deathskulls would otherwise provide.
Thanks for the input but that was not my question. I got 3 big blue ork tank deathskull conversions that I want to field (I'am going to field 1 big bursta and two giga shoota btw.) and I'am just simply looking for the best setup to deal with the current enemy armies out there. I know that this army is not going to win the tournament but it's nice to at least pack a punch or making sure that the enemy needs to work for it in order to have a good game. I'am trying to find the right balance between scoring objectives and damage output. Maybe this:
Patrol HQ: Ork boss warbike
HQ: Big mek forcefield (first turn use the stratagem to give everybody 5++ within 18 inch..)
TR: 1x unit grots
EL: 5 commando's
EL: 5 commando's
FA: 3x shokkjump dragstas
FA: 1x kopta with rokkits (great conversion so want to include it).
Ive never fielded 3 kill tanks before because i dont own any, so i dont know what they work well with. I just figured that i would point out that deathskulls (maybe unless all 3 tanks are bursta kannon versions) work best as Bad moon or maybe blood axes which was the input i could give.
You said you were struggling with your army list, and when it comes to army lists, i would say detatchment rules (klan kulture) is also important to consider as that is going to dictate how the army as whole works. I cant help you much with the army as whole though.
I understand if you want to run them as deathskulls, but if you do this because you've made deathskulls conversions that are blue, and thus feel like you have to run them as deathskulls, then it doesnt matter. You are allowed to run any paint scheme you want for any klan you want. My entire army is painted as a goff scheme with black, white and some red, but i frequently run deathskulls and evil sunz as well.
of course if you want to run them as a themed army as deathskulls i understand that, but then i cant help i could only help with Klan detatchment rules for your super heavy detatchment.
Thanks, but this is more of the same and I would like to focus on the other 1000 points apart from the kill tanks that needs to get objectives or do damage and I struggle with that. What is the best way to get the most out of the first and/or second objectives?
Beardedragon wrote: One thing i noted was that you said you would spend 3 CP to increase the KFF to 18 inches. but you already spend 6CP alone on bringing your 3 killtanks. thats 9 CP spend already that leaves little room for much else. just a heads up.
It's nice to have the option but if i don't need to protect the kill tanks first turn I just field the big mek with the mek guns.
I like to set my expectations low for the new painboss so I’m not disappointed... I bet the new painboss is just a painboy with a mini power claw thats +3 str and -2ap and no -1 to hit... same base stats maybe +1 Ld and 8” base movement... HQ choice... same 6+ fnp and same wound healing ability... still need to use a strat to heal ghaz.... remember technically mad doc grotsnik is a painboss... I wouldn’t expect the generic version to be better.
Ideally yeah youd want badmoonz but deathskullz isprobably what theyre gonna end up being so you can use the transport half of the killtank.
Thats what i was planning to do but i cant find a damn game locally (been a month since my last game, which was a tutorial thing so i didnt use the killtanks, and like 2 monthsb efore that was the previous game)
3 killtanks deathskullz loaded with pretty much everything else in the list. MANz, boyz, and nobz. Start with the KFF mek on foot to cover all 3 and once they start moving just hop in one since he would never keep up anyway. Every time i made them Badmoonz i felt like the rest of my list wasnt doing anything. And im not making the rest of the list Badmoonz. I despise Lootas (way overpriced), im not using multiple 30man shoota blobs, and deathskullz is vastly superior in every other situation.
Question:
I'am preparing for a tournament (september) and I'am really struggling with my armylist. I want to field 3 kill tanks (deathskulls) but not sure what to add. Probably no new codex at that time so got to make the best of it. I'am going to add the warboss on bike (relic, stratagem and warlord trait) and probably 3 small commando units for secondary objectives.
I got mek guns with smasha's if needed. Their great for deploying on an objective and nice damage output but not really flexible.
Got no shokkjump dragstas or megatrakk scrapjets but could go in that direction.
Big unit of boy's could work but I'am not a fan in combining them with 3 kill tanks. Either go big and get the green tide list of get something else.
Mega armour nobs are nice but not very fast. Could put them in the kill tanks though.
Also, how can I prevent the Drukhari armies from dancing around me and taking all the objectives?
Any input?
You need to think it from the other side. What should be your gameplane? Ok, you have 3 Killtanks.
Option 1 = you will charge with them and bully in the field. Shooting like hell and charging. This is super effective way how to work with them. To do this right, you need to play them like the blood axe. That is the fact, so I don' t care you have them blue, find the way how to play them as the Blood axe
Than you will have a lot of points in the middle fighting the objectives. In few models without obsec.
So you need some obsec support. Grots and kommandos are fine. One squad of grots is always usefull on home objective to do the actions. Kommandos for 45p super cheap. You have empty fast attack slot, take some stormboyz. Cost more, but can go somewhere. That is a big problem I have with kommandos. You drop them and than nothing… too slow.
And you need some heavy shooting screening backfield to prevent enemy from scoring Scramblers etc. SMGs are right, maybe take even more.
I dont see the point on dragstas, another anti heavy shooting vehicle.
What secondaries will you score? With 3 killtanks marching forward, it should be Dominantion. With a lot of support light inf, you can maybe score Banners in missions with 5-6 objectives. You will struggle to score scramblers, because you will press your opponent into his deploy, low chance to find a space for drop.
You willhave a chance to score Engage. But it' s the same slot like Dominantion.
Maybe take a weirdboy. Put him in the middle between killtanks and cast Psychic ritual with him.
Definitely no boyz in blobs. Spam heavy type of target
So, I'm bored with death guard now and I have a game against Drukhari coming up. The player is decent, but he tends to run off-meta lists - I'm probably going to face those blender HQs but not the full set of dark eldar insanity.
I thought about just running my usual buggy lists, but considering how they plowed through my DG I'm not convinced that buggies can actually hold their own.
Since it's a TTS match I can play pretty much whatever, any suggestions? I'm also down for just running something totally insane like 3x10 flashgits in battlewagons - as long as I stand a fighting chance I'm willing to give it a go.
Jidmah wrote: So, I'm bored with death guard now and I have a game against Drukhari coming up. The player is decent, but he tends to run off-meta lists - I'm probably going to face those blender HQs but not the full set of dark eldar insanity.
I thought about just running my usual buggy lists, but considering how they plowed through my DG I'm not convinced that buggies can actually hold their own.
Since it's a TTS match I can play pretty much whatever, any suggestions? I'm also down for just running something totally insane like 3x10 flashgits in battlewagons - as long as I stand a fighting chance I'm willing to give it a go.
what does your buggy list look like? Because i recently got 2KBB, 3 scrapjets and 3 dragstas, and im trying to find the best way to run these units (at least the dragstas and scrapjets).
Probably not the most powerful list you can build, but I like how it plays and have become good enough at playing it to defeat anything but hard counters without much trouble.
Note that I'm not looking for a way to defeat drukhari, I'm fairly sure that goff tide with mek guns will do a good job at that. I'm looking for something interesting to play.
its funny, i run a heavy vehicle list and people around here think im "playing the meta because ork buggies are strong atm" And i just give them a blank stare for a moment before saying "Rather i use goff green tide with ghaz?" lol
Buggies are just fun, theyre by no means a cure-all list inclusion. When they get countered oh man it hurts.
Jidmah wrote: My list usually somewhat close to this:
Spoiler:
Wartrike Warboss on Warbike
Trukk boyz Trukk boyz Gretchin
5 MANz
3 KBB 2 Scrapjets 2 SJD
Morkanaut w/ KFF
Burna Bommer or Kannon Wagon or Zagzap Wagon
Probably not the most powerful list you can build, but I like how it plays and have become good enough at playing it to defeat anything but hard counters without much trouble.
Note that I'm not looking for a way to defeat drukhari, I'm fairly sure that goff tide with mek guns will do a good job at that. I'm looking for something interesting to play.
interesting.
Thanks.
Ive been running ghaz 88 boyz with str 5 and mek gunz for a while now, and my list is doing well but sometimes i just find it.. sad that ones boys die to fast against dedicated anti horde. And many times the only reason they havent died super hard by turn 1 is because i decided it was worth spending 3 CP on increasing my KFF to 18 inches (the price is too steep imo). surprisingly ive only lost once with it out of my 5 games (today actually) and that was to a salamanders list. It was 66-60 points to him. Sometimes when i see like 30-40 boys die on one turn in the shooting phase, i wonder how the hell i ended up winning.
So to spice up my gameplay and try new things i wanted to try a more mek based army or buggy list. Im also not the fastest player so using 88 boyz alone and a total of around 111 models, makes me a bit slow on the move.
BW, Gunwagon and warboss on one flank, BW advance forward to delivere MANz and Grots as much forward as possible. Gunwagon follows slower to add Boyz in the mix.
MSJ in the midle keep heads down and waiting for what comes.
KBB makes “shield” in front of MSJ and are eaten by Mortarion and keeps him away of Scrapjets for a while.
Kannonwagon is anywhere he sees the best.
I'm pretty succesfull on TTS with this list right now. Wagons in front makes enemy bussy and holds little bit. Small squads score the points around. Third wagon in the back / on the other flank helps to hold my deploy.
Small variations are common (KFF Mek + 1 more Kommandos vs. Megamek, might is Right vs. Follow me Ladz on motowarboss)
Guys how do you best deal with assassinations? I mean a burna bomma killing itself for 3 damage rarely kills anything and i tend to drop bombs on infantry for the best effect.
Ive had to deal with salamanders and their chief apothecary who.. sadly healed and ressurrected quite a bit.
Is the only answer we have really a Dakkajet? Or a unit i havent thought about?
BW, Gunwagon and warboss on one flank, BW advance forward to delivere MANz and Grots as much forward as possible. Gunwagon follows slower to add Boyz in the mix.
MSJ in the midle keep heads down and waiting for what comes.
KBB makes “shield” in front of MSJ and are eaten by Mortarion and keeps him away of Scrapjets for a while.
Kannonwagon is anywhere he sees the best.
I'm pretty succesfull on TTS with this list right now. Wagons in front makes enemy bussy and holds little bit. Small squads score the points around. Third wagon in the back / on the other flank helps to hold my deploy.
Small variations are common (KFF Mek + 1 more Kommandos vs. Megamek, might is Right vs. Follow me Ladz on motowarboss)
I think ive copied that list from you. Ill try my first buggy list on this sunday where i will try either that or something similar.
Orks dont have a surefire assassination option, the best we got is the mentioned Burnabomma or a Shokkjump Dragsta getting an opportunistic angle, which preys on the opponent leaving an opening not you being smart. Similarly, Wazbom can usually take out a character if theres a spot for it to land right next to it. Again, opponent has to actually give you that chance. Wazbom went up in points enough though where this isnt very favorable anymore, as it costs more than any character its gonna realistically take out and putting it in that spot usually means its dead.
Even though the point for point transaction won't be even there are times when trading a unit for a unit will be worth while. As in this example, losing a wazbomma to kill an upgraded apothecary healing say, bladeguard? Yeah even if it was 50pts more expensive than the target i'd very much consider that a worth while trade. (Though that could be because the marine apothecaries for a long time have been disgustingly effective. Resurrecting centurions come to mind.)
My second list is with the jets and my final selection is ….. trataradá…. 2 wazbooms.
One jet of any type is too weak. Just scratch the paint and kill nothing. Exactly like you describe.
Not only the apothecary, there is tons of way how to heal, repair what have you done with turn 1 burna bommer eadbutt. So in the end, you waste ca160p and 1cp to … do nothing in fact.
So you have to have more power and more concentrated power. 2 Wazboom withou the KFF and without the bigshootas are the answer.
Second option - but I doubt it is a top competitive option - is 2 wazbooms and 2 burnabommers.
Anyhow, wazboom is also pretty random. 2 of them have a more “aberage”output.
SJD is definitely not sure assasination. His shooting is pretty random. That is the reason why people take 3, to have a random output. Especially SJD after advance…
Beardedragon wrote: Guys how do you best deal with assassinations? I mean a burna bomma killing itself for 3 damage rarely kills anything and i tend to drop bombs on infantry for the best effect.
Ive had to deal with salamanders and their chief apothecary who.. sadly healed and ressurrected quite a bit.
Is the only answer we have really a Dakkajet? Or a unit i havent thought about?
Actually, that's what I use my wartrike for most of the time. With 20" advance it can move to almost any position, you then either unload the flamer or melta (when not advancing) into the character as well as the boomsticks and follow up with a charge. Note this only works against support characters, it will bounce off things like captains or other 4++/6W characters.
from deepstrike? Well i think its like 50% to roll 8 without rerolling, but since you need a 9, and you can reroll any and all die, i guess a roll of 9 is roughly around 50% still.
Beardedragon wrote: … I think ive copied that list from you. Ill try my first buggy list on this sunday where i will try either that or something similar.
Fell free and give me a report how does it works. Or you can try my my old Jet list. This one is focuse on scoring Engage.
This one is better in killing stuff sitting back and shooting, but struggle a bit in holding objectives. Plus two jets in enemy deploy eats the short range fire that would be silence in other case. So they are little bit “wasted”. But can kill something, which is hard to kill another way….
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jidmah wrote: I thought about just running my usual buggy lists, but considering how they plowed through my DG I'm not convinced that buggies can actually hold their own.
Since it's a TTS match I can play pretty much whatever, any suggestions? I'm also down for just running something totally insane like 3x10 flashgits in battlewagons - as long as I stand a fighting chance I'm willing to give it a go.
3x Garg Squigog with SMG spam? Plus some Kommandos or something to do the actions?
Beardedragon wrote: … I think ive copied that list from you. Ill try my first buggy list on this sunday where i will try either that or something similar.
Fell free and give me a report how does it works. Or you can try my my old Jet list. This one is focuse on scoring Engage.
This one is better in killing stuff sitting back and shooting, but struggle a bit in holding objectives. Plus two jets in enemy deploy eats the short range fire that would be silence in other case. So they are little bit “wasted”. But can kill something, which is hard to kill another way….
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jidmah wrote: I thought about just running my usual buggy lists, but considering how they plowed through my DG I'm not convinced that buggies can actually hold their own. Since it's a TTS match I can play pretty much whatever, any suggestions? I'm also down for just running something totally insane like 3x10 flashgits in battlewagons - as long as I stand a fighting chance I'm willing to give it a go.
3x Garg Squigog with SMG spam? Plus some Kommandos or something to do the actions?
I will most likely do bad as ive only ever had a focus on evil sunz going in your face, or playing ghaz with like 90 boyz.
Going buggy lists with deathskulls and being a bit reserved by not charging across the battlefield is a step in a different direction. But learning is good.
Beardedragon wrote: from deepstrike? Well i think its like 50% to roll 8 without rerolling, but since you need a 9, and you can reroll any and all die, i guess a roll of 9 is roughly around 50% still.
thanks, pretty much a coinflip then, I like those odds
The chance for succeeding 9" charges with 'ere we go when you re-roll any dice that's not a 4+ is 56.944%. I don't have the math at hand right now, but you can probably google for it.
Jidmah wrote: I thought about just running my usual buggy lists, but considering how they plowed through my DG I'm not convinced that buggies can actually hold their own.
Since it's a TTS match I can play pretty much whatever, any suggestions? I'm also down for just running something totally insane like 3x10 flashgits in battlewagons - as long as I stand a fighting chance I'm willing to give it a go.
3x Garg Squigog with SMG spam? Plus some Kommandos or something to do the actions?
So, I pondered this and started building a list but the big dinosaurs really aren't anything special and are probably the worst thing to play against poison and dark lances. I also didn't want to pay 3CP, as I usually am reluctant to spend that much to get an outrider detachment...
This train of thought inspired me to just run that outrider detachment and drop all my troops for boomdakka snazzwagons. Some of you reported having some good success with them as objective campers, and I haven't played mine in over a year.
Final list:
Spoiler:
Warboss on Warbike
Wartrike, Gork's Road, Opportunist (inspired by Beardedragon's question )
Jidmah wrote: So, I'm bored with death guard now and I have a game against Drukhari coming up. The player is decent, but he tends to run off-meta lists - I'm probably going to face those blender HQs but not the full set of dark eldar insanity.
I thought about just running my usual buggy lists, but considering how they plowed through my DG I'm not convinced that buggies can actually hold their own.
Since it's a TTS match I can play pretty much whatever, any suggestions? I'm also down for just running something totally insane like 3x10 flashgits in battlewagons - as long as I stand a fighting chance I'm willing to give it a go.
If I was to run something thats pure fun, I'd try the followin autohit theme
Snakebite sperhead
KFF warlord with buzzbomb and kunnin but brutal
Gazzy
19 Skorcha Nobz in 2 Squiggoths
3 KBB Grot mega tank with all skorchas
5 Traktor kannons
or something themed around a kustom stompa. But I find the idea of skorching DE from transports much more fitting... (though I wish there were some more squiggoths and skorcha nobz)
Basing question...Is 32mm for Boyz the official new size? Ive got tons of AOBR boys on the 25mm and before I put magnets on the bottom of their bases for storage im wondering if I should update to the bigger size.
Depends.
Most tournaments will require you to update but technically you dont since thats the base they came with. Tournaments of course like to change rules as they see fit but GW has stated tons of times that yo uuse whatever it came with.
If all you do is casual games then its just up to you. I didnt bother updating mine for the same reason.
London GT tourney pack says: Vintage Models are allowed, however, use the current model’s dimensions and base size for game play decisions.
..and the organiser seems to run all the big events in the uk, so I'm putting all my RT era orks on 32mm, and to be fair they look okay.
Just wondering if I can get away with 150mm oval instead of 170mm oval for buggies, 'cos that's what I have (they will be conversions)...
…. This train of thought inspired me to just run that outrider detachment and drop all my troops for boomdakka snazzwagons. Some of you reported having some good success with them as objective campers, and I haven't played mine in over a year.
Final list:
Spoiler:
Warboss on Warbike
Wartrike, Gork's Road, Opportunist (inspired by Beardedragon's question )
Trying to get lucky with WWSWF, at the very least I'll try to not get him to max out bring it down!
I see you love your Morkanaut!
Souped-up Speshul?? I think I remember you was the guy who called this kustom job “the only which makes the original weapon actually worse”
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ok I understand, harlequins T3…
Tomsug wrote: I see you love your Morkanaut!
Souped-up Speshul?? I think I remember you was the guy who called this kustom job “the only which makes the original weapon actually worse”
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ok I understand, harlequins T3…
I also make a point of giving stuff a try even if it sucks
They can't be worse than tripple squig buggies, can they? ... right?
Incorporating some of the feedback. How do you think this will fare against a whatever 500pts army?
Still dont wanna be too competitive, just have a fighting chance.
There really is no reason to not make that detachment freebootas, the chance of triggering the bonus is way better than a few re-rolls on your boyz.
I'd also trade da jump for warpath of fists or gork - the only thing you ever want to jump is the boyz themselves, and if you do, your warphead will be left hanging in the open.
Outside of that, I guess you could make it work if you deploy the mek guns on home objectives.
I also make a point of giving stuff a try even if it sucks
They can't be worse than tripple squig buggies, can they? ... right?
Automatically Appended Next Post: I would like to inform you, that my buggy project is officialy finished after 3KBB, 3MSJ and 3SJD.
If you come here and say “hey dudes, Snazzwagons are great, do this and that and it works perfect” and I will pause my Battlewagon sequence, postpone again my Nauts plan and Stompa project to do 3 Snazzwagons instead, I won' t like you
So guys, when you DO run buggy lists, which secondaries do you usually take? i see going for domination where you sit with 2 units at their deployment zone could work but i also kind of dont want to throw 2 buggies in to the meatgrinder every turn to get my 4 points.
ive always been a scramblers kind of person with 2x kommandoes, i wonder if that still works.
I once saw a list at a tournement with 9x snazzwagons and 2x burna bommas. It was listed on youtube or somewhere i cant remember where nor can i remember the rest of the army.
But the idea of -1 to hit on all those 11 models and they all explode on 4+s gave off some mean mad max vibes
Edit: I meant linebreaker when i said Domination. my bad
Beardedragon wrote: So guys, when you DO run buggy lists, which secondaries do you usually take? i see going for domination where you sit with 2 units at their deployment zone could work but i also kind of dont want to throw 2 buggies in to the meatgrinder every turn to get my 4 points.
ive always been a scramblers kind of person with 2x kommandoes, i wonder if that still works.
I once saw a list at a tournement with 9x snazzwagons and 2x burna bommas. It was listed on youtube or somewhere i cant remember where nor can i remember the rest of the army.
But the idea of -1 to hit on all those 11 models and they all explode on 4+s gave off some mean mad max vibes
Linebreaker works well against armies which are bad at protecting their backfield and come charging at you or aim to dominate midfiled. Against super-durable armies like necrons or DA you pick engage on all fronts and try to get the points by driving buggies up the flanks. If you face an army that you can outfight in melee AND you have a 5 objectives mission, you pick domination.
If I am running trukkboyz it's usually teleporters against armies where I feel confident that I can drive a trukk into the backfield and banners if I don't think so. Even if you just protect two banners with naut, gunwagon, trukks, boyz and gretchin, you can usually get 5-6 VP out of it, plus you often have the chance to raise banners turning T5 for one or two surprise VP. Without infantry though, I am forced to pick the mission secondary or a kill secondary. If all else fails, I just pick "cut off the head" to force my opponent to hide his warlord for at least the first two turns. This tactic is quite valuable against armies with beatstick warlords like drukhari, and you might be able to snipe the warlord with your SJD if you get lucky.
This time I'll experiment with the new WWSWF forcing my opponent into the choice to either to go through my naut, KBBs and snazzwagons to deny points or to shoot the bommer, SJD and scapjet to reduce my damage output. Of course, this might backfire if he just wipes them all, and I totally can see durkhari doing that.
Objectives to avoid are grind them down (you are going to be losing tons) and scramblers - you rarely are going to be able to scramble both mid and the opponent's deployment zone, most successful armies are good at defending one or the other, and buggies can't push people out of an area.
Incorporating some of the feedback. How do you think this will fare against a whatever 500pts army?
Still dont wanna be too competitive, just have a fighting chance.
There really is no reason to not make that detachment freebootas, the chance of triggering the bonus is way better than a few re-rolls on your boyz.
I'd also trade da jump for warpath of fists or gork - the only thing you ever want to jump is the boyz themselves, and if you do, your warphead will be left hanging in the open.
Outside of that, I guess you could make it work if you deploy the mek guns on home objectives.
Okay, but changing to freebootaz removes the gleaming gear from the warphead as well? Also, fists of gork is only castable on CHARACTER units which to me seems pretty bad since the only CHARACTER unit I have is the warphead himself.
Are freebootaz really that good? It seems very difficult to wipe an entire enemy unit and still have some unit left to shoot with.
I also make a point of giving stuff a try even if it sucks
They can't be worse than tripple squig buggies, can they? ... right?
Automatically Appended Next Post: I would like to inform you, that my buggy project is officialy finished after 3KBB, 3MSJ and 3SJD.
If you come here and say “hey dudes, Snazzwagons are great, do this and that and it works perfect” and I will pause my Battlewagon sequence, postpone again my Nauts plan and Stompa project to do 3 Snazzwagons instead, I won' t like you
I heavily doubt so. As described in my last post, not bringing infantry massively limits your choice of secondaries. It's more about shaking up my game than anything. Once you have mastered an army in 9th, every game plays the same since there is so little variance in the missions and most armies follow one of three strategies - take mid and hold, pin down opponent in their deployment zone or hold and defend 3 objectives at all costs.
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pepi55 wrote: Okay, but changing to freebootaz removes the gleaming gear from the warphead as well?
To be honest, that power is not too great anyways. You cannot use it on flash gits, buffing boyz from 6+ to 5+ is hardly worth the trouble and buffing single mek gun seems like a waste as well.
Also, fists of gork is only castable on CHARACTER units which to me seems pretty bad since the only CHARACTER unit I have is the warphead himself.
Precisely. The power effectively turns your weirdboy into a warboss when you need it, allowing it to threaten vehicles, characters and marines.
Are freebootaz really that good? It seems very difficult to wipe an entire enemy unit and still have some unit left to shoot with.
Your flash gits are locked into freebootaz anyways, as they can't have another clan. Your mek guns will not be affected by a culture no matter what. Since the weird boy has no shooting, all that bad moons does is re-roll ones and shoot twice for 15 shootas.
Freebootas is the best compromise, mek guns that kill something still "radiate" the +1 to hit to other freebootas, so if you kill anything you can get the bonus. In addition, the freebootas warlord trait also could be a good pick to support your boyz in combat.
Jidmah wrote: Linebreaker works well against armies which are bad at protecting their backfield and come charging at you or aim to dominate midfiled.
Against super-durable armies like necrons or DA you pick engage on all fronts and try to get the points by driving buggies up the flanks.
If you face an army that you can outfight in melee AND you have a 5 objectives mission, you pick domination.
This is very good and if you are willing to elaborate even more on Strategy vs Objectives, I think it´d be useful to have this in a section on the first page.
Linebreaker works well against armies which are bad at protecting their backfield and come charging at you or aim to dominate midfiled.
Against super-durable armies like necrons or DA you pick engage on all fronts and try to get the points by driving buggies up the flanks.
If you face an army that you can outfight in melee AND you have a 5 objectives mission, you pick domination.
If I am running trukkboyz it's usually teleporters against armies where I feel confident that I can drive a trukk into the backfield and banners if I don't think so. Even if you just protect two banners with naut, gunwagon, trukks, boyz and gretchin, you can usually get 5-6 VP out of it, plus you often have the chance to raise banners turning T5 for one or two surprise VP.
Without infantry though, I am forced to pick the mission secondary or a kill secondary. If all else fails, I just pick "cut off the head" to force my opponent to hide his warlord for at least the first two turns. This tactic is quite valuable against armies with beatstick warlords like drukhari, and you might be able to snipe the warlord with your SJD if you get lucky.
This time I'll experiment with the new WWSWF forcing my opponent into the choice to either to go through my naut, KBBs and snazzwagons to deny points or to shoot the bommer, SJD and scapjet to reduce my damage output. Of course, this might backfire if he just wipes them all, and I totally can see durkhari doing that.
Objectives to avoid are grind them down (you are going to be losing tons) and scramblers - you rarely are going to be able to scramble both mid and the opponent's deployment zone, most successful armies are good at defending one or the other, and buggies can't push people out of an area.
I use Banners in missions with a lot of objectives. Allow me to hold back and shoot what needs to be shot and start scoring from the midle of the game. But I have 3 kommandos, 2 grots, boyz and MANz in the list. Pure buggy has no foots on ground.
Synce the Abhorn the witch is not a topic, one Weirdboy and Psychic ritual could be also an option in some missions… But I doubt single Weirdboy survive in the middle of the field.
I bet all this snaga / squig units will be pretty bad, but something totally different shines. My bet are the WALKERS! I' m hoarding the spruces already
Snaga / squigs will start working with the next book next summer.
Tomsug wrote: I bet all this snaga / squig units will be pretty bad, but something totally different shines. My bet are the WALKERS! I' m hoarding the spruces already
Snaga / squigs will start working with the next book next summer.
U right lol. Its always the units that they did not consider that end up being surprise face beaters
i still wanna see the Squigbuggy converted into some sort of "Mealz on Wheelz" sort of buffbot unit instead of a "tank" like for some freaking reason the article claimed.
Not joking, the article that revealed them called them a freaking tank.
Vineheart01 wrote: i still wanna see the Squigbuggy converted into some sort of "Mealz on Wheelz" sort of buffbot unit instead of a "tank" like for some freaking reason the article claimed.
Not joking, the article that revealed them called them a freaking tank.
Squigbuggy definetely needs a masive conversion. Looks like a sweet hotdog food truck. And call it a tank is a pure joke.
I mean, Orks need SOMETHING that provides buffs to justify the Core treatment as what we have atm is either stuff we never use (Waaagh! Banner of course is gonna be Core, who cares though) or stuff that would break the army if it stopped working on noncore (Waaaagh! Aura)
Squigbuggy could easily become such a thing, offering random buffs to 1 unit of Core near it and the Squig Launcha enables it to buff a second unit at a distance by "shooting the food at them" Or just be a static aura and the Squiglauncha allows them to apply the aura to a unit halfway across the table.
I mean, it would also just be hilarious as hell to be t-shirt cannoning squigburritos across the battlefield lol. Squigbuggy has no real place so might as well totally convert the dang thing.
Oh snap, they finally did it, a boss with a grot gunner on his shoulders.
The thing that Geargutz has been doing for most of his boss designs is now normal lol
marketing ploy. Bet you anything its unusually expensive for whats in it too. Later on we'll get individual boxes of it all and go "hey..... that box wasnt a deal..."
Given my track record of games lately i am perfectly fine waiting.
Good news though
beast riders, beast rider nob, grot bomb rider
snagga boys, and snagga nob
ZOGROD!!! that buffs grots (except grots will likely still be overpriced)
In a boxset
And they said that only half the models and teased a mega armor warboss!!!!
Plus much more coming later!!
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Vineheart01 wrote: marketing ploy.
Bet you anything its unusually expensive for whats in it too. Later on we'll get individual boxes of it all and go "hey..... that box wasnt a deal..."
Given my track record of games lately i am perfectly fine waiting.
Limited boxes tend to be discounted... the only issue is you normally only want half of it.
A new mega choppa is pretty cool too..
Plus his own grot gunner for better BS
Funny they moved away from Pk (means no dual klaw option unless the kit has alternate arms)
But a mega choppa should be better then the big choppa and not suffer the -1 to hit of PK so it might be better over all
+3 str -2ap 2dam? That would be my guess... which would work with a str6 warboss for total of str9 being the sweet spot. I would prefer -3ap at least on a mega armor warboss but that would make the mega choppa better then PK and I’m not sure they want to go there.
Given that most ork stuff is an analog to marine, possible its a Thunderhammer equiv.
Always found it odd we didnt have a thunderhammer type weapon. I longed to have a giant mace and call it my "Big Smakka" lol
Ok speculation go....
They said during the reveal this boxset was only half the new models for orks and teased the mega warboss...
Considering the new box set had 4 kits (10x boys, 3x riders, named, and boss rider) what do you think is the next 4 kits.
1) Mega warboss
2) squighog chariot cartoon from teaser video
3) ?
4) ?
My guess kommando/tankbusta dual kit and named beast snagga warboss (not mega armor).
Not as hyped as with the buggy release, but I like most of the things. I like the squig nob, still split on the tank-bustas-on-a-squig. Releasing codices in limited edition boxes is stupid, even if I usually have no troubles getting such things.
Vineheart01 wrote: Given that most ork stuff is an analog to marine, possible its a Thunderhammer equiv.
Always found it odd we didnt have a thunderhammer type weapon. I longed to have a giant mace and call it my "Big Smakka" lol
I always thought they would adapt the 'Uge Hammas that Nobz could upgrade to having in DoW2, since there's no reason for us to have a version of it given our preference for smashing things.
Overall, pretty happy we at least got one new Ork character after how long, and I'm very interested to see what kind of "super grotz" he can bring. Rules-wise this means either something closer to the lines of how Typhus buffs up Poxwalkers, or a pregame unit upgrade that is available if you take him in your army, similar to Bloodbrides/Trueborn.
In terms of the MAW, I'm hoping that a Power Klaw is still a weapon option for him so I can use the Artel W Nookaz as a stand-in for him.
Hmm.. I didnt play when buggies were released, but i never liked buggies much to begin with. Im totally fired up for this update and these new models. Squig riders for the absolute, zoggin' win
The decision on whether or not i try to get that box hinges on unit sizes.
I have a sneaky suspicion that Squigriders are a 4man squad. Why?
A) GW has been doing this lately where new units are in unusually small packs
B) That 4th one, the Nob, is noticably larger and even bigger base. Theres no way he can be swapped with parts to become "normal" - which means worthless model if you buy a 2nd kit to add to the unit.
Though im not sure if Beast Snaggas are 20man max or if thats just whats in the box. Kinda hoping they arent able to go higher.
Nah they'll probably shift to a point system (Marines and Necrons for instance have this now) Kustom Jobz offers way too much flair and personality to the army. Waaaay too much.
And when box comes in fact… with their long suply lines…
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm looking at the group photo and the snagga boyz are 10 models set. Models are monopose with no weapon options. 2 sets in the box.
Precisely. The power effectively turns your weirdboy into a warboss when you need it, allowing it to threaten vehicles, characters and marines.
Interesting, never thought about it that way. So the fists are for the weirdboy, is warpath for him too? Or do I use it whenever the bois or gitz get in melee?
Your flash gits are locked into freebootaz anyways, as they can't have another clan. Your mek guns will not be affected by a culture no matter what. Since the weird boy has no shooting, all that bad moons does is re-roll ones and shoot twice for 15 shootas.
Freebootas is the best compromise, mek guns that kill something still "radiate" the +1 to hit to other freebootas, so if you kill anything you can get the bonus. In addition, the freebootas warlord trait also could be a good pick to support your boyz in combat.
Ah I thought freebootas trigger only off other freebootas. Hopefully a smite and 2 mek gunz are enought ot at least provide +1 for the boys and flash gitz.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On another note:
Im hoping gloomspite gitz-like units get into wh40k. Or maybe a giant? I like the aos version of the greenskinz where theyre not only orks but also monsters.
Precisely. The power effectively turns your weirdboy into a warboss when you need it, allowing it to threaten vehicles, characters and marines.
Interesting, never thought about it that way. So the fists are for the weirdboy, is warpath for him too? Or do I use it whenever the bois or gitz get in melee?
The later. Just throw it on whoever you want to fight, and there is always smite to fall back onto if warpath or fists doesn't make sense this turn.
Personally i reckon the megaboss is the best model they've shown so far. Very curious if he'll have weapon options or if that will be a new weapon or just a plain old big choppa.
Additionally how is GW gonna handle relics? The more unique weapons you give to characters the less viable relics become. Once apon a time you had a choppa, a big choppa and a claw. If every datasheet has a unuique name how would it work?
That could be one of the unknown orks is a new KFF mek.
They gave us back the MABoss, which is more iconic than it was great. The KFF Mek is not only iconic but damn near mandatory in most lists.
Vineheart01 wrote: The decision on whether or not i try to get that box hinges on unit sizes.
I have a sneaky suspicion that Squigriders are a 4man squad. Why?
A) GW has been doing this lately where new units are in unusually small packs
B) That 4th one, the Nob, is noticably larger and even bigger base. Theres no way he can be swapped with parts to become "normal" - which means worthless model if you buy a 2nd kit to add to the unit.
Though im not sure if Beast Snaggas are 20man max or if thats just whats in the box. Kinda hoping they arent able to go higher.
I don't think the Squighog riders are squads of 4, I think they are smaller. For me it looks like a squad of 3 Squighog Riders (with no nob), similar in count to Warbikes, GoreGruntas, and Morrsarr Guard. GW loves doing bikes/cavalry in squads of 3, 5, or 10 based on how elite they are. 3 models makes more sense than 4. The only cavalry unit that contains 4 model is the Mournfang cavalry, and that's just because they used to have 2 until the box was doubled for AoS.
I think the Smasha Squig Nob is going to be a separate unit/character, like a Nob with Warbanner or how the Akhelian Allopex is separate from the Akhelian Cavalry. The reason why I think this is because the base size is so different, and modern GW tends to not mix base sizes within the same unit. It also looks a lot different than the squighog boyz, with a weapon loadout more targeted for killing beakies (big choppa and slugga) than for killing tanks (the Squighogs with their rokkit spears, throwing bombs, and bomb squig).
Edit 1: spelling
Edit 2: Also the Smasha Squig Nob is positioned away from the Squighog riders in the image of them fighting Space Marines. Usually GW is pretty good about keeping unit coherency in promotional pictures, you rarely find a Nob/Sergeant detached from his squad.
I would assume that as well, since it plugs up one of their main issues with the Ork line, which was a significant lack of plastic HQ characters beyond the Big Meks with SAG and the one in mega armour.
There also are a few pictures where the riders are in numbers of 5, plus there are multiple drawings of one of the riders wielding a klaw similar to the snagga claw the wartrike has, which has not been visible in any of the diorama pictures.
So units of 3-6 are not unlikely. That would mean up to two boxes per units which matches how marines do it for their gravis elites.
Im stoked for the new models at least. Monopose makes me sad but i will definitely go grab some of those Hog boyz.
Heres to a change i hope for: Painbosses or painboys being able to heal Squiggoth units, like the garg squig and regular squiggoth.
or at the very least, give more synergy between those 2 units. The only synergy we have is ghaz being able to make them charge after advancing, but as it stands, Goffs probably arent the best Squiggoth faction.
having the keyword and not benefiting from the kulture are 2 different things.
Gretchin units are still whatever kulture you selected, but dont benefit from the rule. The only reason the Gretchin trigger Freeboota aura is because its backwards what you would think.
Its not "I killed a unit. Friendly freebootas within 24 can now add +1 to hit" Its "HEY! DAT GIT KILLED ONE! WE CAN DO BETTA!" within 24"
Aura is on the unit getting the +1 and it sees another Freeboota kill something, it goes off.
Tomsug wrote: I' m really interested in Ork secondaries.
I think this is a big one for me as well. Depending on what they plan to do with grots, I could see one of the secondaries being fulfilled by grots exclusively or done better by grots as a way of incentivizing their usage without having to up their damage output or defensive ability. We should definitely be getting some kind of secondary where we have more units on the table in combat than out of combat by the end of our turn, given how Orks always want to get stuck in.
Tomsug wrote: I' m really interested in Ork secondaries.
I am super stoked for the ork secondaries as well. I feel like most of the secondaries just dont make sense for how the orks are meant to play. There are so many Killing objectives that just dont work for us. We often play with many models that arent duable, making Grind them down difficult, and Thin their ranks is used on us more than we use it on others.
Objectives like making X charges could be fun to bring back, or, as you guys said, Grot specific missions.
Vineheart01 wrote: Grot missions make a lot of sense because lets be real the only proper Ork one is "HIT'M HARD" be it charge a bunch or kill units in melee.
I'd even like it if they made grots regain "It's a Grot's Life" rule but rewritten so they don't count towards casualties for objective purposes for enemy secondaries. But given that the majority of factions haven't been given secondaries yet, it might be too soon for that.
Considering beast snaggas are akin to speed freaks and are only a “type” of ork not kultur.
What I’m Most interested in the new codex is how that are going to integrate subkultures such as tin’eads, grot mobs, etc and kustom jobs and possibly any vigilus relics and abilities.
How are they going to handle grots with kulturs and points..
And if any units go into legends (deffkopta is looking ripe).
honestly the subkulture thing i could see totally going away, it unlike kustomjobs is rather niche.
That, or it gets reworked to the kustomklans mechanic. If we get one.
A mate is also convinced that we'll get kustom cultures like many other factions did. I'm sort of doubtful. A new batch of Relics that are actually usable would be nice. Keeping most of the klan spells and the Kustom jobs would also be great.
Anything that lets us build more or different lists. The current ork meta is fairly stagnate to say the least.
After seeing how close to the tapestry the new model previews are, have had another look through the tapestry video and a couple of bits stood out - what I assume are normal boyz and meganobz are clearly different to the current range - the boyz are packing shoulder mounted heavies (although this could just be lootas mixed in with boyz), and the meganob shown is weird due to A) having a shoota/choppa style loadout (all current meganobz have klaws/saws?), and B) seems to be leading a mob of boyz (although could just be a meganobz mob mixing it up for the sake of the art).
If the loner choppa meganob and shoulder guns are new (both potentially being part of updated boyz), this would essentially make every single part of the tapestry a new kit right?
I can’t see them redoing the meganob kit.. that kit is only a few years old. I think at best we get the mega armor warboss with a few loadout options though.
While doubtful I’d love for a Nazdreg Ug Urdgrub loadout.
I’m also assuming any new units not in this release will be in the new codex... I can’t see GW release a new codex and NOT include a new units rules that immediately released after like the theorized squiggoth chariot.
Meganobs with choppas and shootas would be an odd loadout anyway, cheap and tough but next to no actual damage output. Upon saying that they would be an interesting objective holding unit.
gungo wrote: And if any units go into legends (deffkopta is looking ripe).
Yes, either we're about to get a deffkopta kit (even a minor recut of the nearly-10-years-old Assault on Black Reach sprues would do, but I don't expect that), or they'll be gone for good, which seems more likely :(
gungo wrote: And if any units go into legends (deffkopta is looking ripe).
Yes, either we're about to get a deffkopta kit (even a minor recut of the nearly-10-years-old Assault on Black Reach sprues would do, but I don't expect that), or they'll be gone for good, which seems more likely :(
I have 18 AOBR deffkoptas in my “future projects bits” box. I hope, your' re wrong.
Back to what is important. Face to the fact, the box with codex comes “soon” there is about 3 months in front of us, before we have the new rules in hands. So let' s play some hammer with the current rule.
Jidmah, how was your list doing?
I see you have no KFF.
Does it even worth it to have a 5++ Big Mek with KFF in wide 6++ buggy army? I use it, but I doubt about it for a long time. I have few CPs left after burning them for KJ, so I will never use 3CP 18” extension. So I will cover let' s say 1/3 of my buggy army. Clever opponent shoots at the rest, or ignores it at all, becaus… hey, 5++? Who cares? My mom has better invu…
Automatically Appended Next Post: Hey hey hey!
Deathskull clan ability:
“… In addition, you can re-roll a single hit roll, a single wound roll, and a single damage roll for each unit with this kultur each time it shoots or fights. ….”
I play it all the time like once per phase, but this sounds, that if I fight/shoot again, I can rerolling again in the same phase! Is it right, or is it just a sunday morning?
Aaand one more sunday morning idea - Deathskull Clan Psychic power seems to be fine againts dudes like Mortarion - gives him -1 to hit againts me and makes Big Shootas AP-1. Am I right or do I miss something?
gungo wrote: And if any units go into legends (deffkopta is looking ripe).
Yes, either we're about to get a deffkopta kit (even a minor recut of the nearly-10-years-old Assault on Black Reach sprues would do, but I don't expect that), or they'll be gone for good, which seems more likely :(
I have 18 AOBR deffkoptas in my “future projects bits” box. I hope, your' re wrong.
Back to what is important. Face to the fact, the box with codex comes “soon” there is about 3 months in front of us, before we have the new rules in hands. So let' s play some hammer with the current rule.
Jidmah, how was your list doing?
I see you have no KFF.
Does it even worth it to have a 5++ Big Mek with KFF in wide 6++ buggy army? I use it, but I doubt about it for a long time. I have few CPs left after burning them for KJ, so I will never use 3CP 18” extension. So I will cover let' s say 1/3 of my buggy army. Clever opponent shoots at the rest, or ignores it at all, becaus… hey, 5++? Who cares? My mom has better invu…
Automatically Appended Next Post: Hey hey hey!
Deathskull clan ability:
“… In addition, you can re-roll a single hit roll, a single wound roll, and a single damage roll for each unit with this kultur each time it shoots or fights. ….”
I play it all the time like once per phase, but this sounds, that if I fight/shoot again, I can rerolling again in the same phase! Is it right, or is it just a sunday morning?
Aaand one more sunday morning idea - Deathskull Clan Psychic power seems to be fine againts dudes like Mortarion - gives him -1 to hit againts me and makes Big Shootas AP-1. Am I right or do I miss something?
You are not missing anything. If you fight again you can reroll all the things again. Like, if you used Da boomer and you fire at the same target for the total amount of 4D6, you would reroll 2 hits, 2 wounds, 2 damage rolls, because you get 1 reroll (hit/wound/dmg) per 2D6 you shoot.
Same for scrapjets. You reroll once per fighting you are doing, so after consolidating where you fight again, you can reroll your hit and wounds and damage once more.
The Weirdboy power is good yes, -1 AP to all your units that are deathskulls hitting the person, + him hitting on a -1 is great. Its a must take id say if you DO use a deathskulls weirdboy
Vineheart01 wrote: having the keyword and not benefiting from the kulture are 2 different things.
Gretchin units are still whatever kulture you selected, but dont benefit from the rule. The only reason the Gretchin trigger Freeboota aura is because its backwards what you would think.
Its not "I killed a unit. Friendly freebootas within 24 can now add +1 to hit" Its "HEY! DAT GIT KILLED ONE! WE CAN DO BETTA!" within 24"
Aura is on the unit getting the +1 and it sees another Freeboota kill something, it goes off.
It's next week, today is Mother's day in Germany and I won't risk the wrath of the wife mind and her nids by running off to play with some BSDM elves
I see you have no KFF.
Does it even worth it to have a 5++ Big Mek with KFF in wide 6++ buggy army? I use it, but I doubt about it for a long time. I have few CPs left after burning them for KJ, so I will never use 3CP 18” extension. So I will cover let' s say 1/3 of my buggy army. Clever opponent shoots at the rest, or ignores it at all, becaus… hey, 5++? Who cares? My mom has better invu…
The naut has a KFF to take an apha-strike, after turn 1 buggies are too spread out to cover them anyways. KFF characters are too slow to keep up and just end up dead, the legends mek on warbike is too expensive and too squishy. I haven't played a mek in my buggy list since SotB, it's either morkanaut or wazbomm.
Hey hey hey!
Deathskull clan ability:
“… In addition, you can re-roll a single hit roll, a single wound roll, and a single damage roll for each unit with this kultur each time it shoots or fights. ….”
I play it all the time like once per phase, but this sounds, that if I fight/shoot again, I can rerolling again in the same phase! Is it right, or is it just a sunday morning?
That seems to be... correct. Especially good in combination with korkscrew.
Aaand one more sunday morning idea - Deathskull Clan Psychic power seems to be fine againts dudes like Mortarion - gives him -1 to hit againts me and makes Big Shootas AP-1. Am I right or do I miss something?
It's WC7 and thus rather unreliable unless you run a pile of boyz. If you run a pile of boyz, you are better of with goff. Assuming you do run enough models to get some cast bonus, it's a pretty decent power, but I prefer warpath and fists of gork over seizures as even a successful cast often results in nothing depending on your opponent's rolls.
In the end, Mortarion doesn't give a damn about -1 to hit (WS2+, full rerolls) and a smite or da krunch are likely going to do more damage than reducing his safe from 3+ to 4++. He also has denies and being within 18" of him usually means getting charged next turn.
If you find yourself in the position of facing DG with a weird boy that has maniacal seizures, you are much better off casting it on deathshrouds, blightlords or plague marine units with flails, as it will greatly reduce their ability to handle hordes and makes them much easier to wittle down. Worst case, your opponent spends a CP to offset the -1 to hit for a phase. If you can get in range a PBC also makes a good target, as the weapons are powerful but have few shots, -1 to hit is rather anoying on them.
I see you have no KFF.
Does it even worth it to have a 5++ Big Mek with KFF in wide 6++ buggy army? I use it, but I doubt about it for a long time. I have few CPs left after burning them for KJ, so I will never use 3CP 18” extension. So I will cover let' s say 1/3 of my buggy army. Clever opponent shoots at the rest, or ignores it at all, becaus… hey, 5++? Who cares? My mom has better invu…
The naut has a KFF to take an apha-strike, after turn 1 buggies are too spread out to cover them anyways. KFF characters are too slow to keep up and just end up dead, the legends mek on warbike is too expensive and too squishy. I haven't played a mek in my buggy list since SotB, it's either morkanaut or wazbomm.
Pay 20p to shift 6++ to 5++ on some units in T1 makes sence. Pay 60p or more and one HQ slot seems hard to justify more and more…
Aaand one more sunday morning idea - Deathskull Clan Psychic power seems to be fine againts dudes like Mortarion - gives him -1 to hit againts me and makes Big Shootas AP-1. Am I right or do I miss something?
It's WC7 and thus rather unreliable unless you run a pile of boyz. If you run a pile of boyz, you are better of with goff. Assuming you do run enough models to get some cast bonus, it's a pretty decent power, but I prefer warpath and fists of gork over seizures as even a successful cast often results in nothing depending on your opponent's rolls.
In the end, Mortarion doesn't give a damn about -1 to hit (WS2+, full rerolls) and a smite or da krunch are likely going to do more damage than reducing his safe from 3+ to 4++. He also has denies and being within 18" of him usually means getting charged next turn.
If you find yourself in the position of facing DG with a weird boy that has maniacal seizures, you are much better off casting it on deathshrouds, blightlords or plague marine units with flails, as it will greatly reduce their ability to handle hordes and makes them much easier to wittle down. Worst case, your opponent spends a CP to offset the -1 to hit for a phase.
If you can get in range a PBC also makes a good target, as the weapons are powerful but have few shots, -1 to hit is rather anoying on them.
I have 1-2 squads of 10 Boyz on the list anyway. It' s already +2 on Psychic test. Goffs are not a topic, we' re speaking about deathskull buggy list with support of Kannonwagon, Gunwagon and Battlewagon. I ' m thinking about how to use a Weirdboy in such list and there is definitely a few options.
Da Jump is obvious to help me with mobility of my small infantry squads. But I use it once, maybe twice per game. No more.
So what next? What will be the second Psychic power?
Fists of Gork are definitely an option. My warboss on Warbike likes it but again, I gues I will use once in a battle.
Maniacal Seizure seems to be “all-game-long” spell that helps me to weaken the enemy and improve my shooting. But your points are right - not every target is the right one for this.
Insularum wrote: After seeing how close to the tapestry the new model previews are, have had another look through the tapestry video and a couple of bits stood out - what I assume are normal boyz and meganobz are clearly different to the current range - the boyz are packing shoulder mounted heavies (although this could just be lootas mixed in with boyz), and the meganob shown is weird due to A) having a shoota/choppa style loadout (all current meganobz have klaws/saws?), and B) seems to be leading a mob of boyz (although could just be a meganobz mob mixing it up for the sake of the art).
If the loner choppa meganob and shoulder guns are new (both potentially being part of updated boyz), this would essentially make every single part of the tapestry a new kit right?
Am I blind? I dont see any shoulder mounted guns on boyz here.
Insularum wrote: After seeing how close to the tapestry the new model previews are, have had another look through the tapestry video and a couple of bits stood out - what I assume are normal boyz and meganobz are clearly different to the current range - the boyz are packing shoulder mounted heavies (although this could just be lootas mixed in with boyz), and the meganob shown is weird due to A) having a shoota/choppa style loadout (all current meganobz have klaws/saws?), and B) seems to be leading a mob of boyz (although could just be a meganobz mob mixing it up for the sake of the art).
If the loner choppa meganob and shoulder guns are new (both potentially being part of updated boyz), this would essentially make every single part of the tapestry a new kit right?
Am I blind? I dont see any shoulder mounted guns on boyz here.
In the current range big shootas and rokkit launchas are fired from the hip, in the tapestry images there are a couple of clumps of boyz where they have over the shoulder weapons more like what Lootas use - this could just be artistic licence and the image is meant to represent an assortment of random Orks - but it seems odd that in all instances it is mostly Boyz with 1 heavy or 1 meganob like if they were to get a new kit with these as options. Probably just wishful thinking on my part though that Boyz will get some meaningful new options.
Insularum wrote: After seeing how close to the tapestry the new model previews are, have had another look through the tapestry video and a couple of bits stood out - what I assume are normal boyz and meganobz are clearly different to the current range - the boyz are packing shoulder mounted heavies (although this could just be lootas mixed in with boyz), and the meganob shown is weird due to A) having a shoota/choppa style loadout (all current meganobz have klaws/saws?), and B) seems to be leading a mob of boyz (although could just be a meganobz mob mixing it up for the sake of the art).
If the loner choppa meganob and shoulder guns are new (both potentially being part of updated boyz), this would essentially make every single part of the tapestry a new kit right?
Am I blind? I dont see any shoulder mounted guns on boyz here.
In the current range big shootas and rokkit launchas are fired from the hip, in the tapestry images there are a couple of clumps of boyz where they have over the shoulder weapons more like what Lootas use - this could just be artistic licence and the image is meant to represent an assortment of random Orks - but it seems odd that in all instances it is mostly Boyz with 1 heavy or 1 meganob like if they were to get a new kit with these as options. Probably just wishful thinking on my part though that Boyz will get some meaningful new options.
Maybe we'll get lucky and GW will just say, ZOG IT and let us have options such as Lootas and Meganobz be unit upgrades? Because those weapons mentioned speak very heavily of loota weapons. On the other hand GW is going to screw us all and make the 4 different weapons in the kit different profiles like they did for Kan weapons?
Insularum wrote: After seeing how close to the tapestry the new model previews are, have had another look through the tapestry video and a couple of bits stood out - what I assume are normal boyz and meganobz are clearly different to the current range - the boyz are packing shoulder mounted heavies (although this could just be lootas mixed in with boyz), and the meganob shown is weird due to A) having a shoota/choppa style loadout (all current meganobz have klaws/saws?), and B) seems to be leading a mob of boyz (although could just be a meganobz mob mixing it up for the sake of the art).
If the loner choppa meganob and shoulder guns are new (both potentially being part of updated boyz), this would essentially make every single part of the tapestry a new kit right?
Am I blind? I dont see any shoulder mounted guns on boyz here.
In the current range big shootas and rokkit launchas are fired from the hip, in the tapestry images there are a couple of clumps of boyz where they have over the shoulder weapons more like what Lootas use - this could just be artistic licence and the image is meant to represent an assortment of random Orks - but it seems odd that in all instances it is mostly Boyz with 1 heavy or 1 meganob like if they were to get a new kit with these as options. Probably just wishful thinking on my part though that Boyz will get some meaningful new options.
Both those pictures are lootas.
Spoiler:
The first picture is the one in the back, the other one looks like a kit bash smiliar to the two in the front. Keep in mind that they even use a rather famous scratch build to depict kommandoz instead of their own models.
I wouldn't be against putting lootas in boyz mobs though. Especially for boyz sitting on objectives a deffgun or two wouldn't be too bad. Maybe mob up gets fixed in a way to allow you to embed such unit into boyz mobs?
Insularum wrote: In the current range big shootas and rokkit launchas are fired from the hip, in the tapestry images there are a couple of clumps of boyz where they have over the shoulder weapons more like what Lootas use - this could just be artistic licence and the image is meant to represent an assortment of random Orks - but it seems odd that in all instances it is mostly Boyz with 1 heavy or 1 meganob like if they were to get a new kit with these as options. Probably just wishful thinking on my part though that Boyz will get some meaningful new options.
I´d say that´s over analyzing. Lootas as Burnas is a box and defined units. Apart from some slight fiddling with boss options and points skewing I wouldn´t expect much change. E.g. Burnas could drop a point.
The major new stuff model wise will be the Beastsnaggas (and the odd missing thing like the already pictured Mega Warboss). Same unit wise. Our main upgrade is points fix, modernized strats and most important, secondaries.
New options are unlikely, if anything options will get cut down or match the box more closely. For example, spannas might become mandatory for burnas and lootas or boyz might be able to have a rokkit and a big shoota becaus that's what is in the box.
Outside of that, basically anything on the datasheet is free game. For DG some units have gotten completely reworked bespoke rules.
Maybe GW will do like what they just did with the Guardsman box and give us an updated Boyz box with new bits added to try and keep them relevant and diverse.
Probably not, but one can dream. Maybe just an upgrade bits box like SM have.
What would be cool would be for GW to give us the possibility of putting burna boys inside boy mobz, and get that sweet AP. Of course the burnas would get their 3rd attack if more than twenty models, just like reg boyz. They would just be boyz, "with a burna", but just boyz.
Same could go for lootas (as in the picture), but i dunno if that would have play.
Something like one out of 5 boyz. We coudl then get possibly 18 attacks with AP, without event counting the nob.
We might as well be OP too
addnid wrote: What would be cool would be for GW to give us the possibility of putting burna boys inside boy mobz, and get that sweet AP. Of course the burnas would get their 3rd attack if more than twenty models, just like reg boyz. They would just be boyz, "with a burna", but just boyz.
Same could go for lootas (as in the picture), but i dunno if that would have play.
Something like one out of 5 boyz. We coudl then get possibly 18 attacks with AP, without event counting the nob.
We might as well be OP too
thats how they work in the Dawn of War video games. Burna boys slugga boyz can be upgraded to give 2 of them flamers.
What would be cool would be for GW to give us the possibility of putting burna boys inside boy mobz, and get that sweet AP. Of course the burnas would get their 3rd attack if more than twenty models, just like reg boyz. They would just be boyz, "with a burna", but just boyz.
That's how it worked in 3rd Ed Codex and Armageddon supplement... But this will not happen unless they upgrade the boyz sprue to include burnas...
I just want a downward shift in points for Burnaz as they feel overcosted. Using the made up named concept of "buses" in my army I split the "bus" between passengers and ablative armour. E.g. a Trukk have 5 Nobz + 7 Kommandos (because they're the cheapest ablative armour). Had Burnaz cost say 10 I´d see them as possible extra wounds whilst still able to impact.
I really want Kommandos to actually feel like kommandos, and not cheap "grots" for 45 points we use for the sole purpose of holding objecitves and doing actions.
They should be dangerous, lethal, and do even better in cover. Though i want the rule for the enemy to be entirely in cover out, just a single model should be in cover for them to get bonuses, otherwise its too easy to counter.
I really hope that we do not lose Deffkoptas. They are an iconic Ork unit, and they have been around for ages.
I had hoped for new kits for Deffkoptas, Kommandos and Tankbustas, but now only the latter look somewhat realistic with the new release.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Beardedragon wrote: I really want Kommandos to actually feel like kommandos, and not cheap "grots" for 45 points we use for the sole purpose of holding objecitves and doing actions.
They should be dangerous, lethal, and do even better in cover. Though i want the rule for the enemy to be entirely in cover out, just a single model should be in cover for them to get bonuses, otherwise its too easy to counter.
A lot of Ork units feel rather underwhelming these days, as many units, such as burnas, kommandos and regular Nobz have next to no killing power compared to newer factions. We have a handfull of killy units, and the rest cannot do much more than sit on objectives it seems.
Burnas just need to go back to D6 hits and get the 12" treatment.
Its BS that they cut their shots in half because they get AP2 in melee. Who cares they never actually get to use it.
What would be cool would be for GW to give us the possibility of putting burna boys inside boy mobz, and get that sweet AP. Of course the burnas would get their 3rd attack if more than twenty models, just like reg boyz. They would just be boyz, "with a burna", but just boyz.
That's how it worked in 3rd Ed Codex and Armageddon supplement... But this will not happen unless they upgrade the boyz sprue to include burnas...
True. I do wish, here we go..., that they'd make a different box for Orks. Like a battle force box with boys and lootas in it and maybe another plastic unit. But give us a data sheet with those options, so Ork players would be able to expand or have a reason to buy a new box of stuff. I do not expect that to happen. GW's set in their ways, fewer models at a higher price.
Played a game yesterday and couldn't get out of my deployment Zone. Boxed in by Ogryen squads. Has anyone found success playing MSU boys vs AM? Semi-competitive AM. I'm thinking that's what I want to try against that nest. How do you deal with indirect artillery like a Manticore, or two manticores? Back to the ol' tellaporta pad?
Those datasheets also dont mention any special rules so he could get a rule based on numbers hes facing as his sweep.
I cant recall a 40k rule doing that, usually AoS, but theyve been bleeding so much AoS into 40k its possible.
Vineheart01 wrote: Those datasheets also dont mention any special rules so he could get a rule based on numbers hes facing as his sweep.
I cant recall a 40k rule doing that, usually AoS, but theyve been bleeding so much AoS into 40k its possible.
I think there's a blood angels thing that does just that, actually.
I think the biggest buff ghaz could get would be not being locked to klan warlord traits. Also, ya gitz think shootas n big shootas will go to rapidfire?, would be an interesting change. getting 4 s4 shots even on our bs would be pretty nice. Assuming we keep dakka and bad moonz, we'd get like 44 percent chance to hit with 4 shots per shoota boy.
Not to nitpick on something minor but shouldn’t ghaz be ld9?
I get it orks... but he’s like the only character that gets others warlords to just join him every time he does another failed raid on armeggedon or wherever else he wants to use them... since he’s suppose to be the big leader I kinda expect him to be the biggest leadership... game wise it doesn’t matter though cause orks..
I'm just sad that ghaz doesn't have like krak bomm launchas or something so his little grenade launchers are useful. Would maybe also hope the biggest an bestest ork in the setting would have like a 4+ bslol
They might also replace the goff warlord trait with something actually useful. Or do something like they did with Mortarion or Terminus Est Typhus where he gets multiple traits
Hmm.. true im sad he didnt get a sweep ability. He cant fly or anything so hes easy to get bogged down.
Automatically Appended Next Post: A guy of FB said this is a misprint from 2020. Cant confirm nor verify if its correct. The thing about Ghaz that is. Said it was confirmed on discord? that it is NOT ghaz new stats. Again, cant confirm myself.
It would make kustom shootas on meganobz legitimately useful versus the tax they feel like they are right now. It was also be interesting to see the knock on effects of things like Dakkajets, Scrapjets, hell even guys like Killa Kanz to some extent.
Oh so we're seeing some of the simplified sheets coming out now? Heck yeah. The ghaz one is interesting, curious to see what other sheets come out, the more bread and butter units rather than a single character.
cody.d. wrote: Oh so we're seeing some of the simplified sheets coming out now? Heck yeah. The ghaz one is interesting, curious to see what other sheets come out, the more bread and butter units rather than a single character.
Yeah, the main ones I'm interesting in seeing are Warbikerz to see how they'll hold up against the more CC-oriented beast snaggas as well as Lootas/Burnas to see if they're usable in the new edition.
cody.d. wrote: Oh so we're seeing some of the simplified sheets coming out now? Heck yeah. The ghaz one is interesting, curious to see what other sheets come out, the more bread and butter units rather than a single character.
Yeah, the main ones I'm interesting in seeing are Warbikerz to see how they'll hold up against the more CC-oriented beast snaggas as well as Lootas/Burnas to see if they're usable in the new edition.
It's weird because if you described to someone a warbiker as a fast, reasonably tough unit that can spit out 6 str 5 shots a model they'd be somewhat interested right? But then you realize they're orks, only two rounds will hit and they'll have garbage AP. Dunno how GW could improve them at this point. But would adore it if bikers were made viable. No I totally don't have enough to field 3 full squads, what do you mean?
cody.d. wrote: Oh so we're seeing some of the simplified sheets coming out now? Heck yeah. The ghaz one is interesting, curious to see what other sheets come out, the more bread and butter units rather than a single character.
Yeah, the main ones I'm interesting in seeing are Warbikerz to see how they'll hold up against the more CC-oriented beast snaggas as well as Lootas/Burnas to see if they're usable in the new edition.
It's weird because if you described to someone a warbiker as a fast, reasonably tough unit that can spit out 6 str 5 shots a model they'd be somewhat interested right? But then you realize they're orks, only two rounds will hit and they'll have garbage AP. Dunno how GW could improve them at this point. But would adore it if bikers were made viable. No I totally don't have enough to field 3 full squads, what do you mean?
Yeah, I feel there's a hugely missed opportunity with warbikerz since they really should be the outriders of an Ork force, the vanguard that scouts ahead alongside deffkoptas. I think giving them more of a focus on their mobility and "hit-and-run" style tactics would be a better focus and allow them to not overlap with the beast snaggas implied focus in hunting big things in CC. Giving them either a 6" pregame scouting move and having rapid fire for their dakkaguns could make them have interesting burst ranged damage. Or even giving them something along the lines of being able to flee D6" after shooting overwatch (meaning it costs 1 CP to activate their ability) would give them an interesting dynamic of wanting to get up close to the enemy to make the most of the rapid fire dakkaguns but at the same time having a measure of an escape route from being charged.
Honestly i'm not sure if orks getting rapid fire weapons is a good thing. A chunk of ork mobility is the ability to advance and charge, and having the ability to fire guns on the move is pretty valuable. We currently don't have any rapid fire weapons to my knowledge and it suits our faction and it's playstyle. Hell the few heavy weapons we have restrict a few tactics. I would love for the naughts to have assault weapons on their main gun, so I could use a bikerboss to let them run and charge, possibly even getting off a first turn charge with the right upgrades. Certainly a turn 2 charge.
But on bikers, yeah they're a unit with a lot of design flexibility. Maybe give them buffs for charging something already in engagement range to represent outflanking. Or yeah, reactionary stuff, you charge them they can make a move or something. Though a pregame move would be largely redundant IMO. They're a unit that can be pretty much wherever they want with the right builds.
cody.d. wrote: Honestly i'm not sure if orks getting rapid fire weapons is a good thing. A chunk of ork mobility is the ability to advance and charge, and having the ability to fire guns on the move is pretty valuable. We currently don't have any rapid fire weapons to my knowledge and it suits our faction and it's playstyle. Hell the few heavy weapons we have restrict a few tactics. I would love for the naughts to have assault weapons on their main gun, so I could use a bikerboss to let them run and charge, possibly even getting off a first turn charge with the right upgrades. Certainly a turn 2 charge.
But on bikers, yeah they're a unit with a lot of design flexibility. Maybe give them buffs for charging something already in engagement range to represent outflanking. Or yeah, reactionary stuff, you charge them they can make a move or something. Though a pregame move would be largely redundant IMO. They're a unit that can be pretty much wherever they want with the right builds.
True. Though I assume that if the rapid fire changes are real that DDD! would have something to do with Orks treating them as if they were assault weapons if they advanced, otherwise I agree that it would be a sidegrade at best given the limitations of rapid fire for Ork units and how we don't have an equivalent to bolter discipline/doctrines to utilize it fully.
what i want for blood axes is them to remove the cover bonus thingy, and instead change it to a bonus for falling back out of melee. Oftentimes its more worth it just to stay and fight i feel.
Honestly DS are the only klan that feels up to the current level of faction bonuses. It's the others that feel weak sometimes laughably so compared to the competition. But that is my opinion mind you.
cody.d. wrote: Honestly DS are the only klan that feels up to the current level of faction bonuses. It's the others that feel weak sometimes laughably so compared to the competition. But that is my opinion mind you.
Definitely. You can definitely tell how many subfaction traits have aged poorly when nowadays it's basically standard to have at least 2 trait abilities while we have poor guys like Snakebitez, Bad Moonz, Goffs and Freebootas who basically only have one.
I'm hoping that the recent DE codex is a sign that the approach to subkulturs is to allow you to exchange up to two unit's klan keywords to the subkultur of your choice without disrupting the detachment's benefits for klan traits, etc. and you can only do this once per detachment to demonstrate the underlying subkulturs beneath each klan. This way, them being tailored to specific units is no longer a detriment and doesn't require you to build an entire detachment around while also preventing you from spamming said buffed units without CP.
It's possible that i'm in the minority here but freebootaz is the only other one that feels up to scratch. And indeed I sort of feel it's one of the better designed traits out there full stop. A flat, good buff that requires you to do something to activate it. Maybe it could be improved by allowing non-freeboota units to let you kick it off. So if some badmoons kill something the freebootaz will want to show off rather than just feeling impotent apparently. It would better vibe with their feeling of one-upman(ork)ship that they're meant to represent.
cody.d. wrote: Oh so we're seeing some of the simplified sheets coming out now? Heck yeah. The ghaz one is interesting, curious to see what other sheets come out, the more bread and butter units rather than a single character.
Yeah, the main ones I'm interesting in seeing are Warbikerz to see how they'll hold up against the more CC-oriented beast snaggas as well as Lootas/Burnas to see if they're usable in the new edition.
Agree, warbikers and burnas are the two units most dire need of statline/weapon profile updates, though I'm still hoping that exhaust cloud comes back as a bespoke rule.
That said, I'd also be fine with exhaust cloud working like smoke screen, being able to react with -1 to hit still beats not having it T1/having to pay it in advance.
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cody.d. wrote: It's weird because if you described to someone a warbiker as a fast, reasonably tough unit that can spit out 6 str 5 shots a model they'd be somewhat interested right? But then you realize they're orks, only two rounds will hit and they'll have garbage AP. Dunno how GW could improve them at this point. But would adore it if bikers were made viable. No I totally don't have enough to field 3 full squads, what do you mean?
Dakka guns to rapid fire, +1A, -1 AP on choppas and a point drop to 18-20 points per model. And it's not even completely unreasonable to expect that to happen, since all melee-focused armies have gotten army-wide +1A and everyone with an actual close combat weapon has gotten at least -1 AP.
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cody.d. wrote: Honestly DS are the only klan that feels up to the current level of faction bonuses. It's the others that feel weak sometimes laughably so compared to the competition. But that is my opinion mind you.
No, you are right. IMO they should just lift all other clans to DS level, not nerf DS.
If they nerf anything, I think the obvious thing to remove is ObSec, as it doesn't really fit the "lukky blue gitz" theme unlike the other two. If anyone should have obSec MANz, it should be badmoons.
The most awesome solution, of course, would be giving each clan's signature units obSec - bikers for evil suns, lootas and burnas for DS, MANz for bad moon, warbosses and nobz for goff, flash gits for freebootas, kommandoz for bloodaxes and those new squig riders for snakebites.
The most awesome solution, of course, would be giving each clan's signature units obSec - bikers for evil suns, lootas and burnas for DS, MANz for bad moon, warbosses and nobz for goff, flash gits for freebootas, kommandoz for bloodaxes and those new squig riders for snakebites.
Yeah because 6++ and reroll a single hit/wound/damage roll die itself is not gamebreakingly powerful. Technically neither is the obsec, though that is significant and i'd expect that to be cut back if not removed as well.
The only reason everyone uses deathskullz so much is because the other kultures are so pathetic by comparison, not that deathskullz is that ridiculous. I hate it when army-wide rules flatout dont even affect half the army, and not only does deathskullz not have that problem but its got better versions of it.
I mean, its pretty sad when the math to favor Badmoonz needs mroe than 12 shots to outshine Deathskullz when its the only thing they got in the first place, while Deathskullz' works in melee and have other perks too.
The most awesome solution, of course, would be giving each clan's signature units obSec - bikers for evil suns, lootas and burnas for DS, MANz for bad moon, warbosses and nobz for goff, flash gits for freebootas, kommandoz for bloodaxes and those new squig riders for snakebites.
Don't forget stormboyz for blood axez
what? Stormboys as far as im aware, are not inherently Blood axes, Kommandos are.
Doesnt sound very stealthy to have a rocket strapped on your back. If anything i recall Stormboys being used in decent numbers by Goffs but i could be wrong about that.
Bloodaxes aren't famous for their stealth, but for imitating human tactics. There is a fluff blurb somewhere that bloodaxes have more stormboyz because of that, but I still don't feel like they are a signature unit for them. If they had a signature unit outside of kommandoz, it would be looted wagons.
The most awesome solution, of course, would be giving each clan's signature units obSec - bikers for evil suns, lootas and burnas for DS, MANz for bad moon, warbosses and nobz for goff, flash gits for freebootas, kommandoz for bloodaxes and those new squig riders for snakebites.
Don't forget stormboyz for blood axez
what? Stormboys as far as im aware, are not inherently Blood axes, Kommandos are.
Doesnt sound very stealthy to have a rocket strapped on your back. If anything i recall Stormboys being used in decent numbers by Goffs but i could be wrong about that.
Old fluff, Blood Axes besides being sneaky are notable for having a more structured command style and troop discipline - relatively speaking. The old fluff for Stormboyz was that they were typically rebellious yoofs, who in their attempts to go against the grain of Ork Kultur performed military drills and lived organized lives much in the style of human soldiers, which made them a natural fit for the more orderly Blood Axes.
it also has to be noted that the biggest mek in the tabletop is a goff. Goffs are just the ork ultramarines. With their followin orders and such tho, they're definitely blood axes. It would also help people shift away from thinking blood axes are sneaky, to blood axes follow orders.
Beardedragon wrote:what? Stormboys as far as im aware, are not inherently Blood axes, Kommandos are.
Doesnt sound very stealthy to have a rocket strapped on your back. If anything i recall Stormboys being used in decent numbers by Goffs but i could be wrong about that.
Stormboyz have also been Khorne. Stormboyz were not initially "fly" troops of any form. They liked marching.
Jidmah wrote:Bloodaxes aren't famous for their stealth, but for imitating human tactics. There is a fluff blurb somewhere that bloodaxes have more stormboyz because of that, but I still don't feel like they are a signature unit for them. If they had a signature unit outside of kommandoz, it would be looted wagons.
Well Snikrot is a Blood Axe. And at the end of 4rd ed, beginning of 4th ed Andy Chambers released a PDF online that if you made your army Blood Axe Kommandos were Troops. Looted Wagons in this PDF were Death Skull. "purchased" or,.. well however an Ork would procure a Guard vehicle would be Blood Axe.
Jidmah wrote:Yeah, it's also worth noting that most of the time when storm boyz appear as part of a Waaagh! in a campaign or novel they aren't bloodaxes, but goff.
Jidmah wrote: Bloodaxes aren't famous for their stealth, but for imitating human tactics. There is a fluff blurb somewhere that bloodaxes have more stormboyz because of that, but I still don't feel like they are a signature unit for them. If they had a signature unit outside of kommandoz, it would be looted wagons.
They are famous for both, but imitating 'Oomans (and being untrustworthy) was the first thing. They even accepted looted teef from battlefields as payment for merc activities in the service of the Imperium and whatnot. The Storm Boy thing is even later fluff though.
Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote: it also has to be noted that the biggest mek in the tabletop is a goff. Goffs are just the ork ultramarines. With their followin orders and such tho, they're definitely blood axes. It would also help people shift away from thinking blood axes are sneaky, to blood axes follow orders.
I'm not talking about models though, but for example about the storm boyz mobs that Thrakka employed during the War of Armageddon. Due to their speed he used them to great effect in all sorts of supply line disruptions and sudden attacks out of nowhere. Almost all of those mobs were goff (including the one led by Zagstrukk), though I remember there being bad moons stormboyz as well.
Jidmah wrote: Bloodaxes aren't famous for their stealth, but for imitating human tactics. There is a fluff blurb somewhere that bloodaxes have more stormboyz because of that, but I still don't feel like they are a signature unit for them. If they had a signature unit outside of kommandoz, it would be looted wagons.
They are famous for both, but imitating 'Oomans (and being untrustworthy) was the first thing. They even accepted looted teef from battlefields as payment for merc activities in the service of the Imperium and whatnot. The Storm Boy thing is even later fluff though.
As far as I understood, the sneaky stealthy part of kommadoz is also imitating humans, which employ such tactics against orks quite a lot.
As far as reddit goes, it isnt his new datasheet. But an old one that was made before the newest release of Ghaz was.. well released. So it was a pre-idea of how he should look.
As I wrote in the other thread, if GW's plans wouldn't have gotten messed up as thoroughly as they were, Orks would have hit in February or March, so this might very well be his new datasheet.
I also don't understand the sentiment of "making him relevant again" - Thrakka is the centerpiece of the most powerful ork build right now.
Jidmah wrote: As I wrote in the other thread, if GW's plans wouldn't have gotten messed up as thoroughly as they were, Orks would have hit in February or March, so this might very well be his new datasheet.
I also don't understand the sentiment of "making him relevant again" - Thrakka is the centerpiece of the most powerful ork build right now.
to be fair, it would be nice of him to not be needed in a goff detatchment to be useful (like painboy healing). Or at least make it so that the patrol hes in is free even if he isnt the warlord or something along those lines.
If those are his stats though, its sad he doesnt get a sweeping strike but i guess maybe that rapid fire 12 can make up for some things.
I wonder what abilities he will get/retain.
I also really hope the morkanaut and gorkanaut gets a price reduction (specially considering the killtanks are 275 points for 24 wounds). It feels like any ork vehicle costing more than 200 points (generally) isnt worth it (except killtanks) due to how low our survivability is. We dont dictate first or second round, and the morkanaut dont get obscurring from ruins (ofc unless its got no holes or windows so they cant see him), so hes pretty hard to hide. Ive been using a morkanaut in my two last battles, and i didnt start both of them. In both scenarios he was just taken off turn 1 to long range shooting (48 inches). I mean thats ork models for you i dont really mind generally speaking, except i paid 340 points for him. in fact in the first game, both a Mega dread, a trukk, and my morkanaut were taken off. Thats pretty ballsy shooting right there (10 terminators with heavy bolters shooting twice, and 3 defilers), which wouldnt bother me, except the 340 points for the morkanaut.
I feel like the pricing on quite a few units is way off for orks, yet for some reason we still win (but usually not with those units though). Something with the price of 340 shouldnt die that easy, but since orks arent about survivability which im okay with, id rather wanna see him get quite a bit cheaper, than id see him get harder to kill.
Same goes for what we get for 40 points in Mega Nobz considering what everyone else gets for 38 points in terminators. I think 40 points is a good Mega Nobz price, and im not really interested in invulsaves, but since we dont have that, the mega nobz must be cemented in their own way, in what makes them good. We have no invul save, no deepstrike, move of 4", and unwieldy weapons, + terrible BS and terrible ranged weapon choice.
Then you look at the amount of firepower even at range many terminators can deal after which they can do decently in close combat too. Mega Nobz should either be faster and way tougher (toughness 5, 4wounds) and remove the unwieldiness of their powerklaw/killsaws to make them great close combat specialists + a move of 5. At least that way i find it okay to pay 40 points for a model that has no invul save, has no deepstrike, has no real ranged capabilities.
Many terminators can be used alone as they are, but you rarely can use Mega Nobz as is, you always need to pay for your own deepstrike for 2CP, pay for a transport (usually 135 at least for a Battlewagon) or da jump them with your weird boy. Mega Nobz should be more capable on their own too. Or unless you run a Goff list with Ghaz and 90 boyz, then theres threat saturation that sort of protects them too.
That said I feel like Mega Nobz do well, they just arent as efficient as other terminators. And if we pay more/equal to them, the Mega Nobz should at least be more efficient and updated. at least in the survivability department perhabs still without invul saves and our close combat powers.
Jidmah wrote: As I wrote in the other thread, if GW's plans wouldn't have gotten messed up as thoroughly as they were, Orks would have hit in February or March, so this might very well be his new datasheet.
I also don't understand the sentiment of "making him relevant again" - Thrakka is the centerpiece of the most powerful ork build right now.
to be fair, it would be nice of him to not be needed in a goff detatchment to be useful (like painboy healing). Or at least make it so that the patrol hes in is free even if he isnt the warlord or something along those lines.
If those are his stats though, its sad he doesnt get a sweeping strike but i guess maybe that rapid fire 12 can make up for some things.
I wonder what abilities he will get/retain.
Well pain boyz could go either way really. With beast snaggas comming, they might be able to patch up beast as well as infantry, which would then also mean that Grotznik can do it. Outside of that, if you look at other characters like Thrakka, they will always work best in their own sub-faction. Anyways, people would mind a lot less if Thrakka wasn't as important to top competitive play as he is now.
For "no sweeping", it's worth noting that he went up to 7 attacks from 5, plus his own Waaagh!, whatever his new warlord trait and new goff will provide him with. The new Lord of Terra has 10 sweeping attacks, Thrakka with that profile and the old rules can easily get 10-11 heavy attacks in, doubling that into sweeping attacks would be kind of insane. Any unit worth sweeping will now get hit by twice as many shots from Mork's Roar and the heavy stikkbomb.
Vineheart01 wrote: Oh cmon Jidmah you know GW will only let the Painboss heal Beasts as an incentive for all of us that have like 3+ painboyz to get the new model lol
So true
I just had my Drukhari match and for the first time in a long time I conceded a game. In my command phase at the start of my turn 4, my opponent had a 40+ VP lead and I had 0 primary points. All I had left was the Morkanaut (stuck in combat), a kannonwagon (stuck in combat), a half-dead burna bommer and lone boomdakka snazzwagon on an objective that he didn't even bother to kill because it does so little damage.
I had hot dice, killed a bunch of boats and wiped their passengers before they could reach me, made almost every charge no matter how far, hit above average on most rolls, made a ton of 6++ saves, had some beautiful explosions and the naut even killed Drazahr in overwatch. He also had trouble killing my vehicles because he relied heavy on poison and I don't think a single dark lance hit over the course of the entire game. Outside of my MANz who failed their charge and were clobbered to death by wracks, there were no big failures.
And despite all that, the drukhari just ran into my deployment zone, murdered everything even remotely near an objective and took it for themselves. I never held more than a single objective.
This really does feel like playing 7th edition orks vs craftworld, I don't think a buggy list stands any chance against them.
Vineheart01 wrote: Oh cmon Jidmah you know GW will only let the Painboss heal Beasts as an incentive for all of us that have like 3+ painboyz to get the new model lol
So true
I just had my Drukhari match and for the first time in a long time I conceded a game. In my command phase at the start of my turn 4, my opponent had a 40+ VP lead and I had 0 primary points. All I had left was the Morkanaut (stuck in combat), a kannonwagon (stuck in combat), a half-dead burna bommer and lone boomdakka snazzwagon on an objective that he didn't even bother to kill because it does so little damage.
I had hot dice, killed a bunch of boats and wiped their passengers before they could reach me, made almost every charge no matter how far, hit above average on most rolls, made a ton of 6++ saves, had some beautiful explosions and the naut even killed Drazahr in overwatch. He also had trouble killing my vehicles because he relied heavy on poison and I don't think a single dark lance hit over the course of the entire game. Outside of my MANz who failed their charge and were clobbered to death by wracks, there were no big failures.
And despite all that, the drukhari just ran into my deployment zone, murdered everything even remotely near an objective and took it for themselves. I never held more than a single objective.
This really does feel like playing 7th edition orks vs craftworld, I don't think a buggy list stands any chance against them.
Yeah, their mobility and ability to trade up so cost efficiently means we're fighting a very uphill battle against them. Especially since the all boyz list doesn't do well against their ability to put out a lot of horde clearing units while they have cost-effective anti-tank as well. So even skew lists aren't able to handle them very well.
Until they FAQ some of the egregious stuff like Dark Technomancers and possibly some points adjustments, I don't see most armies being able to handle both them and the marines currently gatekeeping the other armies atm.
BDBurrow wrote: Warboss on bike is nearly as good as Ghaz for 1/3 the cost. He’s actually better in some ways (movement, LOS, warlord trait).
Warboss on bike does need the biggest boss strat and relic to be nearly as good as ghaz though.
Soon enough our codex will change things up though and I don’t expect forgeworld units to change much (sadly as most other units could be improved).
Well, the big changes to the FW stuff will come in the form of special rule, weapon and stratagem changes. Not much specifically with them, but a lot of things that decide if they mesh with your list or not.
Grimskul wrote: Yeah, their mobility and ability to trade up so cost efficiently means we're fighting a very uphill battle against them. Especially since the all boyz list doesn't do well against their ability to put out a lot of horde clearing units while they have cost-effective anti-tank as well. So even skew lists aren't able to handle them very well.
Until they FAQ some of the egregious stuff like Dark Technomancers and possibly some points adjustments, I don't see most armies being able to handle both them and the marines currently gatekeeping the other armies atm.
My opponent wasn't even particularly competitive, though he is a good player - no Technomancers and he was running a realspace raid focused around reducing moral, phantasm grenade launchers and a bunch of chronos.
It's just the immense hitting power of blood brides, trueborn, incubi, wracks, drazahr and the succubus put out. Each of those picks a unit to kill and it just dies. In turn 2 alone, I lost 2 KBB, 2 scrapjets, 1 boomdakka snazzwagon, my warboss and my wartrike. Totally insane.
Sleeping a night on it, it really felt like he was playing an extra 500 points against me. Luckily, Drukhari and Orks have always been very similar armies, so I hope they are just heralding what we can expect for our codex.
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Beardedragon wrote: When the new codex hits, does it also change up the forge world units? Or will those units remain exactly as they are?
They will remain the same, but when they reference the ork codex, those rules will change as well. For example, when power klaws or killsaws change, the warboss on warbike will be using the new profiles, anything on his own datasheet will remain as is.
Vineheart01 wrote: Oh cmon Jidmah you know GW will only let the Painboss heal Beasts as an incentive for all of us that have like 3+ painboyz to get the new model lol
So true
I just had my Drukhari match and for the first time in a long time I conceded a game. In my command phase at the start of my turn 4, my opponent had a 40+ VP lead and I had 0 primary points. All I had left was the Morkanaut (stuck in combat), a kannonwagon (stuck in combat), a half-dead burna bommer and lone boomdakka snazzwagon on an objective that he didn't even bother to kill because it does so little damage.
I had hot dice, killed a bunch of boats and wiped their passengers before they could reach me, made almost every charge no matter how far, hit above average on most rolls, made a ton of 6++ saves, had some beautiful explosions and the naut even killed Drazahr in overwatch. He also had trouble killing my vehicles because he relied heavy on poison and I don't think a single dark lance hit over the course of the entire game. Outside of my MANz who failed their charge and were clobbered to death by wracks, there were no big failures.
And despite all that, the drukhari just ran into my deployment zone, murdered everything even remotely near an objective and took it for themselves. I never held more than a single objective.
This really does feel like playing 7th edition orks vs craftworld, I don't think a buggy list stands any chance against them.
In other words - Snazzwagons were not so impressive?
I' ve found that buggy list needs essentially high number of cheap small infantry squads to screen himself and block the way. KBB works the same - best points-per-square-inch-of-the-base price. However, I'm not so sure, this can help much againts any type of “eldar” army. Infantry and characters on small bases. In fact, even huge vehicles sitting on something like 40mm round base. Every second unit flyies…
I would not worry too much about this match up for now, as soon:
1 drukhari are getting nerfed (not just DT liquifiers I think) and
2 orks will get a new codex.
ATM the match up is impossible for orks, as we have bad durability (one of the worst among all armies), and as such are just fodder for the DE units. Buggies can at least kill one or two raiders turn 1 (thinking of shokk jump dragstas) but they will get smashed in return, and from there the game just unfolds with orks losing stuff twice as expensive.
A few of these bad trades and you end up tables with DE having 1000 points still on the table.
As Jidmah said, 7th edition all over again so try it once, concede, then don't do the MUp again until GW sorts it out. I don't even know what an ork list built specifically to kill DE would look like. I don't see any of our units being efficient against them, aside perhaps from mek guns (raiders toughness 6 is a good target for them) which will be very dependant on terrain.
Dragstas with the upgrade can perhaps DStriking turn 1 + mek gunz can maybe result in enough dead raiders turn 1 (assuming orks go first) ?
A gretchin core unit (how much you wanna bet that even though marine dreads are core, our walkers wont be) can hit on 3s and shoot while doing an action. Sounds dope until you realize thats a 12" 1 shot S3 AP0 pistol youre buffing lol. half the time i dont even shoot with grots, theyre not even in range of anything in the first place.
i'm still expecting a new grot unit though so we'll see how he fairs later.
(course this all completely flips if by some miracle Killakanz are core. Not infantry, but hitting on 3s is dope)
Fight last for monsters only is situational at best. So far this is a huge swing and a miss unless grots are getting massive buffs. I have to say I would be good with the latter if they do intend to keep them at 5 pts.
A gretchin core unit (how much you wanna bet that even though marine dreads are core, our walkers wont be) can hit on 3s and shoot while doing an action. Sounds dope until you realize thats a 12" 1 shot S3 AP0 pistol youre buffing lol. half the time i dont even shoot with grots, theyre not even in range of anything in the first place.
i'm still expecting a new grot unit though so we'll see how he fairs later.
(course this all completely flips if by some miracle Killakanz are core. Not infantry, but hitting on 3s is dope)
Yeah, that would make KK actually work taking, assuming they also either give them a points cut or some type of boost to their current ability in damage output right now.
Given how much they're upgunning a lot of the basic infantry in the new books so far, I wouldn't be surprised if grot blastas changed into 18" assault 1 instead, which could make his buffs a little more relevant.
Kaptin_Grubkrumpa wrote: Yeah but unless the buff the str of the blasta I still don't think it'll be super relevant.
My guess is that they're adding new units of grots. Perhaps snipers? That will be core and can benefit from Zodgrod.
Gork, I hope so. Sniper grots are something that always seemed a natural fit for them given their preference for ranged weaponry and especially since IG's equivalent, Ratlings, exist. Not to mention Orks really lack a way to pick off characters at range barring getting a lucky deep strike shot with the shokkjump dragsta.
Gretchin Snipers or 'Eavy Gunners (probably multi-grot-per-base in the mindset of guard artillery squads) would super love that buff.
'Eavy Gunners of course using bigshootas, KMB's, rokkits, or whatever new weapon they may add in that profile range.
There is one hilariously amusing silver lining with the Squigstoppa though. All its looking for is Monster.
Girlyman is a Monster fyiLOL
Vineheart01 wrote: Gretchin Snipers or 'Eavy Gunners (probably multi-grot-per-base in the mindset of guard artillery squads) would super love that buff.
'Eavy Gunners of course using bigshootas, KMB's, rokkits, or whatever new weapon they may add in that profile range.
There is one hilariously amusing silver lining with the Squigstoppa though. All its looking for is Monster.
Girlyman is a Monster fyiLOL
HA! You're right, good catch! I can hear the GWFAQ writers furiously typing an errata now so that it doesn't affect their beloved Primarch models
addnid wrote: I would not worry too much about this match up for now, as soon:
1 drukhari are getting nerfed (not just DT liquifiers I think) and
2 orks will get a new codex.
ATM the match up is impossible for orks, as we have bad durability (one of the worst among all armies), and as such are just fodder for the DE units. Buggies can at least kill one or two raiders turn 1 (thinking of shokk jump dragstas) but they will get smashed in return, and from there the game just unfolds with orks losing stuff twice as expensive.
A few of these bad trades and you end up tables with DE having 1000 points still on the table.
As Jidmah said, 7th edition all over again so try it once, concede, then don't do the MUp again until GW sorts it out. I don't even know what an ork list built specifically to kill DE would look like. I don't see any of our units being efficient against them, aside perhaps from mek guns (raiders toughness 6 is a good target for them) which will be very dependant on terrain.
Dragstas with the upgrade can perhaps DStriking turn 1 + mek gunz can maybe result in enough dead raiders turn 1 (assuming orks go first) ?
If you get your units in CC in their deploy, it starts to be interesting. BW with warboss via luck&ramming speed, Scrapjets in Telyport ramming speed in T2. But it' s just about how to make at least something. The match up is super hard right now as you say.
On the most of the tables used on TTS tournaments, it' s pretty easy to hide the Eldars out of LOS in T1… Bad luck for SMG. Kannonwagon (incl. Reroll on number of shots and More Dakka) is better, but just one and super CP hungry.
The new rules will be in our hands no earlier than in 2 months, so there is to 2 months of fighting in such conditions. So the topic is still relevant
Gretchin snipers is the best idea for a new ork unit I have ever heard I think. On just so many levels !
Also, i have lots grot models which I don't use, I could just convert them.
Also the tease at the end of the article sounds like we are getting some type of “warboss on squig chariot” character.
Since the squig chariot was previewed in the cartoon that’s my guess for the squig character they are hinting at... Seems like they are overloading our fast atk and HQ choices though...
I'd love to see a speed waaagh like they had in the PA book. Doubling movement instead of rolling for advance was gave squighide tired' bikes a HUGE threat range.
Tomsug wrote: In other words - Snazzwagons were not so impressive?
Well, they did ok, better than squig buggies anyways. I did face an army where everything was T3 and had no armor save to speak of though and I doubt they would have done anything worth noting in another game. On a hilarious anecdote, I thought they would be perfect for taking out an archon's shadow field who then just proceeded to roll 17 2+ saves
Considering how I barely managed to fit my army into my deployment zone to begin with, there really is no reason to run them over the other buggies. I'd say they are good enough for casual games or crusade forces though, unlike the squig buggy which is just hot garbage.
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addnid wrote: I would not worry too much about this match up for now, as soon:
1 drukhari are getting nerfed (not just DT liquifiers I think) and
2 orks will get a new codex.
ATM the match up is impossible for orks, as we have bad durability (one of the worst among all armies), and as such are just fodder for the DE units. Buggies can at least kill one or two raiders turn 1 (thinking of shokk jump dragstas) but they will get smashed in return, and from there the game just unfolds with orks losing stuff twice as expensive.
A few of these bad trades and you end up tables with DE having 1000 points still on the table.
As Jidmah said, 7th edition all over again so try it once, concede, then don't do the MUp again until GW sorts it out. I don't even know what an ork list built specifically to kill DE would look like. I don't see any of our units being efficient against them, aside perhaps from mek guns (raiders toughness 6 is a good target for them) which will be very dependant on terrain.
Dragstas with the upgrade can perhaps DStriking turn 1 + mek gunz can maybe result in enough dead raiders turn 1 (assuming orks go first) ?
Doubtful. My two SJD killed a raider with wyches (who were then murdered by big shootas and speshuls), the KBB and the kannonwagon blew up the trueborn's ride and the scrapjets plus morkanaut de-meched the incubi. The turn after the trueborns stole the blood bride's ride and the incubi just ran into combat.
I don't think it gets vastly better than this.
BDBurrow wrote: Fight last for monsters only is situational at best. So far this is a huge swing and a miss unless grots are getting massive buffs. I have to say I would be good with the latter if they do intend to keep them at 5 pts.
It'd be kinda funny to rock up to a primarch and slap them with this to prevent the interrupt stratagem. But yeah, otherwise there aren't a huge number of monsters about worth the ability.
C'tan shards, primarchs, daemon princes, and once they get their codex Nidz of course.
Monsters arent rare, they just arent common in the most common poster-child army.
It's true, he may become a more relevant unit if the upcoming codices after us are more MONSTER oriented or their MONSTER units are capable. Even Eldar potentially to some extent if the Yncarne/Avatar of Khaine get a proper redo in terms of rules.
Doubtful. My two SJD killed a raider with wyches (who were then murdered by big shootas and speshuls), the KBB and the kannonwagon blew up the trueborn's ride and the scrapjets plus morkanaut de-meched the incubi. The turn after the trueborns stole the blood bride's ride and the incubi just ran into combat.
I don't think it gets vastly better than this.
Jidmah I agree, that seems like the most we can do. In terms of 1st turn threat, if we had indirect fire to add up to the SJDs, we could combine it with a alpha strike from a kamikaze burna bommer, but sadly we dont :(
I think orks would need to be able to down 3 raiders turn 1 (as well as actually win the 1st turn roll off...) to even stand a chance in a game against current (not yet rightfully nerfed) drukhari
Hum, I think the burna bommer actually wasn't that great in this game, I wished I had a dakkajet instead. I did get some good bombs in (5 truborn and 6 wracks), but there was never a good target to 'eadbut. You also basically have to fly off the table T1 as there is nothing exposed during your movement phase and dropping mortal wounds on boats does nothing.
Actually a wazzbom would probably have been the best choice, as it can help killing boats and you are rather likely to get max shots against drukhari infantry.
Jidmah wrote: Hum, I think the burna bommer actually wasn't that great in this game, I wished I had a dakkajet instead. I did get some good bombs in (5 truborn and 6 wracks), but there was never a good target to 'eadbut. You also basically have to fly off the table T1 as there is nothing exposed during your movement phase and dropping mortal wounds on boats does nothing.
Actually a wazzbom would probably have been the best choice, as it can help killing boats and you are rather likely to get max shots against drukhari infantry.
You don't get like 3 or 4 raiders in range ? Ah i think I see, you measure the explosion to the "flying base" not the hull, thus burnas are boned, right ?
Raiders are like 3" wide, and your opponent can block you from fitting a flying base in between them by utilizing terrain. He was able to spread them out so you only get two or three raiders in range at best, and it's not worth sacrificing the bommer just to take two or three boats down to 7 wounds.
No mek guns, and I doubt I could have fit any in my deployment zone. With a naut, a battlewagon and 11 buggy bases I was already struggling to find enough space for the warboss on warbike.
Wazboom is great to deal with hidden targets like this boats, but you need to take two. IMHO wazboom is genrealy better then burna bommer, because he can actualy kill something valuable. Eadbutt just scratch the paint…
Jidmah wrote: Hum, I think the burna bommer actually wasn't that great in this game, I wished I had a dakkajet instead. I did get some good bombs in (5 truborn and 6 wracks), but there was never a good target to 'eadbut. You also basically have to fly off the table T1 as there is nothing exposed during your movement phase and dropping mortal wounds on boats does nothing.
Actually a wazzbom would probably have been the best choice, as it can help killing boats and you are rather likely to get max shots against drukhari infantry.
Actually, would a big unit of deffkoptas be good against a transport DE list? Slap long uncontrolled bursts and those 10 rokkit shots hitting on 4s with whatever other buffs you can give them (such as visions for Sunz) followed up by their melee against the squishy occupants. And this would be reliably done first turn too.
Jidmah wrote: Hum, I think the burna bommer actually wasn't that great in this game, I wished I had a dakkajet instead. I did get some good bombs in (5 truborn and 6 wracks), but there was never a good target to 'eadbut. You also basically have to fly off the table T1 as there is nothing exposed during your movement phase and dropping mortal wounds on boats does nothing.
Actually a wazzbom would probably have been the best choice, as it can help killing boats and you are rather likely to get max shots against drukhari infantry.
Actually, would a big unit of deffkoptas be good against a transport DE list? Slap long uncontrolled bursts and those 10 rokkit shots hitting on 4s with whatever other buffs you can give them (such as visions for Sunz) followed up by their melee against the squishy occupants. And this would be reliably done first turn too.
So more dakka + long uncontrolled nets you like ~6 wounds, just take smashas, they're just good against anything lol.
Played a newbie with a Drukhari Netlist 12 Technomancer Liguidators 3 Raider trueborn Drazhar 2x5 Incubi scourges mandrakes. I had 120 shoota boyz 4 rokkits per unit 5 smashes 4 traktor cannon. His 3 Talos with 6 liquifiers would not come out in the open due to a mob behind a building and mek guns threatening them on one flank (he would have won if he deployed them in the centre) meanwhile 90 ES boyz rushed forward as a distraction carnifex on the other flank. He was so busy killing 70 of those boyz in the first 3 turns the mek guns had a field day. He didn’t have a lot left at that point. We were both Glass Kannons but he was the glass, I was the Kannon. But I doubt I would have got away with it against an experienced player
To be clear about klan rules wishlisting from a few pages back I don’t think DS needs a nerf. But GW removed the DS style rerolls from salamanders, so I think it’s likely DS will lose it too. Meanwhile they gave objective secured as one of the Necron traits.
cody.d. wrote: I've heard a bit of the 12 Technomancer Liquidators. What do they do exactly?
Technomancers Coven gives option for +1 to wound and +1 Damage on weapons if you take 1MW (D3 if vehicles) on an unrerollable 1 to hit. Liquifiers before upgrading are 12” Ad6 S4 -2 1 auto hitting. Have a nice day!
cody.d. wrote: I've heard a bit of the 12 Technomancer Liquidators. What do they do exactly?
Technomancers Coven gives option for +1 to wound and +1 Damage on weapons if you take 1MW (D3 if vehicles) on an unrerollable 1 to hit. Liquifiers before upgrading are 12” Ad6 S4 -2 1 auto hitting. Have a nice day!
Bloody hell, yeah I can see why it may be mentioned a lot. That's a fair bit of marine killing power. With essentially no downsides due to the weapon being autohitting. Peope are probably right when expecting a nerf of some sort.
Vineheart01 wrote: That reroll mechanic is significantly more lethal on a marine unit than it is any ork unit.
I dont expect it to go away, just the infantry = obsec because that is just random as hell.
It's really the damage roll that makes it so memorable for some of the D6 weapons it can affect, like dragstas and Morkanauts. I always find it funny that other players get salty when we get the Deffskull rerolls, too many times have I heard "oh my god, you're just rerolling everything" while I'm staring at a SM player who has large swathes of their army in reroll to hit and wound bubbles. It's unfortunate that the expectation for Ork guns to miss means that the moment things get a little swingy on the good side for us or if we get some level of consistency that non-Ork players cry foul for some reason.
Vineheart01 wrote: That reroll mechanic is significantly more lethal on a marine unit than it is any ork unit.
I dont expect it to go away, just the infantry = obsec because that is just random as hell.
There are a handful of units that make the trait sing, the ones with low volume high quality guns. Where as marines, especially nu marines, tend to have high volume medium quality. Few special weapons to really capitalize on those handful of re-rolls. Instead as Grimskul said, they just get a tonne of re-rolls pretty much on demand.
Vineheart01 wrote: That reroll mechanic is significantly more lethal on a marine unit than it is any ork unit.
I dont expect it to go away, just the infantry = obsec because that is just random as hell.
It's really the damage roll that makes it so memorable for some of the D6 weapons it can affect, like dragstas and Morkanauts. I always find it funny that other players get salty when we get the Deffskull rerolls, too many times have I heard "oh my god, you're just rerolling everything" while I'm staring at a SM player who has large swathes of their army in reroll to hit and wound bubbles. It's unfortunate that the expectation for Ork guns to miss means that the moment things get a little swingy on the good side for us or if we get some level of consistency that non-Ork players cry foul for some reason.
Literally every time i hear something like this i start doing it right back at them. They get really mad at me really fast when i start pointing out "Ok so you rerolled well over 60 hit and 50 wound rolls in your turn. Youre just rerolling everything!"
Vineheart01 wrote: That reroll mechanic is significantly more lethal on a marine unit than it is any ork unit.
I dont expect it to go away, just the infantry = obsec because that is just random as hell.
It's really the damage roll that makes it so memorable for some of the D6 weapons it can affect, like dragstas and Morkanauts. I always find it funny that other players get salty when we get the Deffskull rerolls, too many times have I heard "oh my god, you're just rerolling everything" while I'm staring at a SM player who has large swathes of their army in reroll to hit and wound bubbles. It's unfortunate that the expectation for Ork guns to miss means that the moment things get a little swingy on the good side for us or if we get some level of consistency that non-Ork players cry foul for some reason.
Literally every time i hear something like this i start doing it right back at them. They get really mad at me really fast when i start pointing out "Ok so you rerolled well over 60 hit and 50 wound rolls in your turn. Youre just rerolling everything!"
I've only done that a few times against an Eldar player, who I swear only ever has selective memory when it comes to me rolling good and him rolling bad. The sad part is even when I point out the hypocrisy of the basis of his complaints, he just goes off to sulk about how Orks are OP. "Rerolls for me, but none for thee" is pretty much him in a nutshell, which is one of the few good things about the pandemic is I don't have to worry about those games as much now with TTS being the main way for me to play.
Vineheart01 wrote: That reroll mechanic is significantly more lethal on a marine unit than it is any ork unit.
I dont expect it to go away, just the infantry = obsec because that is just random as hell.
It's really the damage roll that makes it so memorable for some of the D6 weapons it can affect, like dragstas and Morkanauts. I always find it funny that other players get salty when we get the Deffskull rerolls, too many times have I heard "oh my god, you're just rerolling everything" while I'm staring at a SM player who has large swathes of their army in reroll to hit and wound bubbles. It's unfortunate that the expectation for Ork guns to miss means that the moment things get a little swingy on the good side for us or if we get some level of consistency that non-Ork players cry foul for some reason.
Literally every time i hear something like this i start doing it right back at them. They get really mad at me really fast when i start pointing out "Ok so you rerolled well over 60 hit and 50 wound rolls in your turn. Youre just rerolling everything!"
I've only done that a few times against an Eldar player, who I swear only ever has selective memory when it comes to me rolling good and him rolling bad. The sad part is even when I point out the hypocrisy of the basis of his complaints, he just goes off to sulk about how Orks are OP. "Rerolls for me, but none for thee" is pretty much him in a nutshell, which is one of the few good things about the pandemic is I don't have to worry about those games as much now with TTS being the main way for me to play.
Wait, don't they have the exact same trait in their custom traits? And it can affect their mek gun equivalents.
Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote: I thought of a wishlist thing for me besides blood axes becoming good and shoota boyz being not bad. Good ol 4 Ppm 'Ardboyz
Like a 4 point per model upgrade to regular boyz?
I'd like boyz to go back down to 6 points, but would accept 7. 8 is too damn high!
Ye, you basically got 1 mob of boyz that you paid 4 ppm to upgrade to a 4+ save.
They were also universally considered a fun, but terrible unit
Under the new AP rules, I would totally pay 2 points per model to upgrade them to 4+ though.
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cody.d. wrote: Actually, would a big unit of deffkoptas be good against a transport DE list? Slap long uncontrolled bursts and those 10 rokkit shots hitting on 4s with whatever other buffs you can give them (such as visions for Sunz) followed up by their melee against the squishy occupants. And this would be reliably done first turn too.
Could be, but you would they would be dead the turn after. So essentially you are trading a 250 point unit and a CP for a boat+passengers which tends to be below 200 points of investment unless you are targeting incubi - and those just murder you in combat.
'Ard Boyz in the past were bad because AP4 weapons was standard, so 4+ saves didnt mean anything majority of the time and it nearly doubled the boy cost for it. In the new system i imagine they'd be pretty good since the standard is AP-1 for most guns now, giving them a 5+. But nope they decided to make it 5+ armor for some stupid reason.
On note of the Deathskullz reroll mechanic, apparently one of the admech canticles is literally the same reroll mechanic now in the new news article.
How effective would Ard boyz really be when muhreeenz get -1 AP Skittles here and there?
A -1AP makes that a KFF save.
I think I would like to see it on a per model points cost with no unit cap for possible application on Trukk mobs. The nerf to 5+ on the strategem is enraging.
TedNugent wrote: How effective would Ard boyz really be when muhreeenz get -1 AP Skittles here and there?
A -1AP makes that a KFF save.
I think I would like to see it on a per model points cost with no unit cap for possible application on Trukk mobs. The nerf to 5+ on the strategem is enraging.
Tbf, it works in CC as well which can make a noticeable difference even against the -1AP chainsword equivalents everywhere, having a 5+ in combat is better than no save at all, where the KFF doesn't do anything. Also, until the KFF is changed to affecting units within rather than wholly within, you're going to get two boyz mobs at best under his aura range assuming you don't burn 3CP to make it 18". So having an ard boyz unit on the flank that is survivable on their own can be worth a lot.
I feel like the 5+ save nerf from the strat is partly because of GW's weird personal take on Orks being crappy on the armour side, and more importantly overvalued how it could synergize with the Loot it! strat, where they were probably afraid of 3+ save boyz, even though it would cost an exorbitant 3CP in total, AND its conditional on having something die within range of them that's a vehicle.
Vineheart01 wrote: That reroll mechanic is significantly more lethal on a marine unit than it is any ork unit.
I dont expect it to go away, just the infantry = obsec because that is just random as hell.
It's really the damage roll that makes it so memorable for some of the D6 weapons it can affect, like dragstas and Morkanauts. I always find it funny that other players get salty when we get the Deffskull rerolls, too many times have I heard "oh my god, you're just rerolling everything" while I'm staring at a SM player who has large swathes of their army in reroll to hit and wound bubbles. It's unfortunate that the expectation for Ork guns to miss means that the moment things get a little swingy on the good side for us or if we get some level of consistency that non-Ork players cry foul for some reason.
Literally every time i hear something like this i start doing it right back at them. They get really mad at me really fast when i start pointing out "Ok so you rerolled well over 60 hit and 50 wound rolls in your turn. Youre just rerolling everything!"
I've only done that a few times against an Eldar player, who I swear only ever has selective memory when it comes to me rolling good and him rolling bad. The sad part is even when I point out the hypocrisy of the basis of his complaints, he just goes off to sulk about how Orks are OP. "Rerolls for me, but none for thee" is pretty much him in a nutshell, which is one of the few good things about the pandemic is I don't have to worry about those games as much now with TTS being the main way for me to play.
Wait, don't they have the exact same trait in their custom traits? And it can affect their mek gun equivalents.
Definitely they do, though they miss on the damage reroll as well as infantry obsec, which is his main complaint of us having too much of a good thing. It's funny because while I don't deny Deffkskullz aren't good, it's not like they can't make their own approximation/better combo with their custom craftworld traits, especially since the 6++ save for them is usually redundant unlike for us.
If they're worried about 3+ save boyz with a conditional combination of 2 strategems, which is rather asinine, they don't have that concern about adding a cover save on top of a 3+ muhreen or a 2+ storm shield Terminator.
Kind of like their panic attack over a 5++ Cybork when any marine that wanted one could pick up a 3++ for peanuts.
It really is aggravating tbh. 3+ sure seems to be a number that orks are allergic to.
The core game rules really were better in 5th. Anyway, that's an aside.
I have high hopes for what Beastie boys can do so long as they are troops and I never feel like boyz are mandatory again. They soak up support units and are a giant unwieldy mess with too many fundamental problems.
TedNugent wrote: If they're worried about 3+ save boyz with a conditional combination of 2 strategems, which is rather asinine, they don't have that concern about adding a cover save on top of a 3+ muhreen or a 2+ storm shield Terminator.
Kind of like their panic attack over a 5++ Cybork when any marine that wanted one could pick up a 3++ for peanuts.
It really is aggravating tbh. 3+ sure seems to be a number that orks are allergic to.
The core game rules really were better in 5th. Anyway, that's an aside.
I have high hopes for what Beastie boys can do so long as they are troops and I never feel like boyz are mandatory again. They soak up support units and are a giant unwieldy mess with too many fundamental problems.
Definitely, I feel like they've overcorrected Nobz/Nob Bikerz ever since they their heyday back in 5th ed. with how wound allocation worked and painboyz gave out both FNP and 5+ invulns to the unit. Now they feel like a glass cannon without the cannon part. I'm hoping that if we don't have some upgrade in toughness that at least we can properly trade with our units in the new codex, it's really crappy feeling that so many of our core units are anemic in terms of damage when you have this sudden boost in toughness with transhuman, -1D abilities for marines while in other cases it's competing and losing against hyper-cost effective units that DE have.
TedNugent wrote: If they're worried about 3+ save boyz with a conditional combination of 2 strategems, which is rather asinine, they don't have that concern about adding a cover save on top of a 3+ muhreen or a 2+ storm shield Terminator.
I have high hopes for what Beastie boys can do so long as they are troops and I never feel like boyz are mandatory again. They soak up support units and are a giant unwieldy mess with too many fundamental problems.
The Beastie Boyz will probably have a Sabotage stratagem
TedNugent wrote: If they're worried about 3+ save boyz with a conditional combination of 2 strategems, which is rather asinine, they don't have that concern about adding a cover save on top of a 3+ muhreen or a 2+ storm shield Terminator.
I have high hopes for what Beastie boys can do so long as they are troops and I never feel like boyz are mandatory again. They soak up support units and are a giant unwieldy mess with too many fundamental problems.
The Beastie Boyz will probably have a Sabotage stratagem
They will definitely Make Some Noise while they Fight for Their Right to Party with the rest of Thrakka's Intergalactic Waaagh.
TedNugent wrote: If they're worried about 3+ save boyz with a conditional combination of 2 strategems, which is rather asinine, they don't have that concern about adding a cover save on top of a 3+ muhreen or a 2+ storm shield Terminator.
Kind of like their panic attack over a 5++ Cybork when any marine that wanted one could pick up a 3++ for peanuts.
It really is aggravating tbh. 3+ sure seems to be a number that orks are allergic to.
The core game rules really were better in 5th. Anyway, that's an aside.
I have high hopes for what Beastie boys can do so long as they are troops and I never feel like boyz are mandatory again. They soak up support units and are a giant unwieldy mess with too many fundamental problems.
You can actually get a mob of boyz up to a 3+ if you want. Just takes a bit of work. Arboyz and lootit then cover (I would recommend having a blob of smashagunz near the boyz as a target the enemy can't ignore). You can get cover from 18" away with a trait, or even go badmoons. If you can find a piece of cover big enough to cover most of the mob you can actually get yourself up to a 2+ save with the badmoons spell.
TedNugent wrote: If they're worried about 3+ save boyz with a conditional combination of 2 strategems, which is rather asinine, they don't have that concern about adding a cover save on top of a 3+ muhreen or a 2+ storm shield Terminator.
I have high hopes for what Beastie boys can do so long as they are troops and I never feel like boyz are mandatory again. They soak up support units and are a giant unwieldy mess with too many fundamental problems.
The Beastie Boyz will probably have a Sabotage stratagem
They will definitely Make Some Noise while they Fight for Their Right to Party with the rest of Thrakka's Intergalactic Waaagh.
I´ll loose No Sleep till Beastsnaggaz show. Ordinary Boyz are fine as long as they are reasonably cheap. Not all units are about maximum killing efficiency imo. Just flooding an objective and being a nuisance to get rid of is enough.
tulun wrote: Given GW's MO, Snaggas are gonna replace boys, as they want people to buy new kits (Most old players already have 120+ boys bought and painted).
Expect them to be intercessor like. Boyz are still probably useable but I think a full swap over will be optimal.
During Friday's reveal at Warhammer Fest, they said, "This new codex completely changes the way orks play. Think *Drukhari*. We also want players to be able to play any type of army they like, whether that's a horde of boyz, walkers, vehicles, etc."
So no. I don't think they will replace boyz.
They are getting everyone to buy the new models by pre-releasing the codex a couple of months early with the limited edition box.
I doubt the box will be two months earlier than the codex.
Horde of boyz could easily mean horde of snagga boyz
I mean by all accounts you can technically use loads of tac marines, people just don't. If they want people to buy 60-90 snaggas, they'll definitely be better.
I mean people mainly play goff skar boys as boy spam now. So unless snagga boys are vastly over costed people are going to use them... how many normal non-skar boy spam lists do you see now? It’s also a new kit which gets the benefit of any new wpns on the sprue soo another notch against normal boys.
I think boyz will be fine in the short term for the rest of this edition mainly becuase skar boys strat (and ghaz buffing) will directly compete against snagga boys... but ultimately what kills snagga boy spam overtaking normal boys is the greentide strat is currently only usable by boys. Making normal boys much more efficient and reliable then snagga boys will be... this is of course only viable if GW doesn’t change the strat to include snagga boyz... that strat is the main reason boy spam works.. there are countless times I’ve had a game where someone failed to completely wipe out my 30 man boy unit and I just bring it back to full strength.
gungo wrote: I mean people mainly play goff skar boys as boy spam now. So unless snagga boys are vastly over costed people are going to use them... how many normal non-skar boy spam lists do you see now? It’s also a new kit which gets the benefit of any new wpns on the sprue soo another notch against normal boys.
I think boyz will be fine in the short term for the rest of this edition mainly becuase skar boys strat (and ghaz buffing) will directly compete against snagga boys... but ultimately what kills snagga boy spam overtaking normal boys is the greentide strat is currently only usable by boys. Making normal boys much more efficient and reliable then snagga boys will be... this is of course only viable if GW doesn’t change the strat to include snagga boyz... that strat is the main reason boy spam works.. there are countless times I’ve had a game where someone failed to completely wipe out my 30 man boy unit and I just bring it back to full strength.
Again, orks will play like a totally different army. All of the strats you're referencing will likely not exist anymore. Skarboyz definitely won't exist in the same capacity. It's being replaced with Snagga boyz. Ustoppable green tide will be replaced with a completely new mechanic.
Also, evil suns horde is still very popular, and just recently came in third place at the W4 GT in Wisconsin.
tulun wrote: ... We also want players to be able to play any type of army they like, whether that's a horde of boyz, walkers, vehicles, etc." ...
I so hope this is true, deff dreads and killa kanz are such cool looking minis. I just hope a detachment crammed full of them can be viable. Sure, maybe some support units are required, but I dont want to waste points on making them viable.
With the codex I'm expecting us to get our doctrine type thing as a WAAAGH!!! mechanic, hopefully 1 turn buff but most likely somethin like big waaagh from aos, or the lamer set turn bonuses.
gungo wrote: I mean people mainly play goff skar boys as boy spam now. So unless snagga boys are vastly over costed people are going to use them... how many normal non-skar boy spam lists do you see now? It’s also a new kit which gets the benefit of any new wpns on the sprue soo another notch against normal boys.
I think boyz will be fine in the short term for the rest of this edition mainly becuase skar boys strat (and ghaz buffing) will directly compete against snagga boys... but ultimately what kills snagga boy spam overtaking normal boys is the greentide strat is currently only usable by boys. Making normal boys much more efficient and reliable then snagga boys will be... this is of course only viable if GW doesn’t change the strat to include snagga boyz... that strat is the main reason boy spam works.. there are countless times I’ve had a game where someone failed to completely wipe out my 30 man boy unit and I just bring it back to full strength.
Again, orks will play like a totally different army. All of the strats you're referencing will likely not exist anymore. Skarboyz definitely won't exist in the same capacity. It's being replaced with Snagga boyz. Ustoppable green tide will be replaced with a completely new mechanic.
Also, evil suns horde is still very popular, and just recently came in third place at the W4 GT in Wisconsin.
His point still remains. No matter how much optimism you pour into it, there will only be enough room for one troops unit with slugga and choppa outside of edge cases - and GW will make sure that this unit will not be the one everyone already has dozens of at home, just like they did for the primaris troops.
His point still remains. No matter how much optimism you pour into it, there will only be enough room for one troops unit with slugga and choppa outside of edge cases - and GW will make sure that this unit will not be the one everyone already has dozens of at home, just like they did for the primaris troops.
I'd rather be an optimist than make largely negative assumptions.
Assumptions made;
1) Snagga boyz will be troops
2) Preferred loadout of snagga boyz will be slugga/choppa
3) Preferred loadout of new boyz will be slugga/choppa
4) Troop size will be the same
5) Both units will be obsec
I'm not saying that these assumptions are wrong. I'm just saying that they are assumptions and that we have no idea how this is going to play out.
Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote: With the codex I'm expecting us to get our doctrine type thing as a WAAAGH!!! mechanic, hopefully 1 turn buff but most likely somethin like big waaagh from aos, or the lamer set turn bonuses.
I'd prefer a Big WAAAGH! style of having points to add up to certain buffs/abilities rather than a set turn bonus, even if they stack, just because it feels that it's too static and orderly for an army that's isn't supposed to be strictly organized into combined arms like marines or other armies are. It would also give opportunities for having Warbosses/Ghazzy have a baseline impact on how much is generated while they're alive.
His point still remains. No matter how much optimism you pour into it, there will only be enough room for one troops unit with slugga and choppa outside of edge cases - and GW will make sure that this unit will not be the one everyone already has dozens of at home, just like they did for the primaris troops.
I'd rather be an optimist than make largely negative assumptions.
Assumptions made;
1) Snagga boyz will be troops
2) Preferred loadout of snagga boyz will be slugga/choppa
3) Preferred loadout of new boyz will be slugga/choppa
4) Troop size will be the same
5) Both units will be obsec
I'm not saying that these assumptions are wrong. I'm just saying that they are assumptions and that we have no idea how this is going to play out.
Safe assumptions imo.
I don't think their new battle box won't feature a troop. That's bad form if you can't take that box and just play a game of 40k, even at like 500 points.
And I'm not saying boys won't be viable -- just that Snaggas will be *better*. And better almost always means adoption.
That's why you see primaris, not old marines, in places like the troop slot.
Yes, assumption on the same level as that you will be hit by a car when you drive in the wrong direction on a highway during rush hour. Just because there is a slim chance of not getting hit doesn't mean that you should expect that you won't get hit.
GW has become very predictable in the last few years and everything is point to these orks being the new boyz. 1) They made a killing with primaris, proving that replacing decade old kits with slightly upgraded ones is a valid business strategy for them. 2) We know that these boyz are equipped with (cawl?)sluggas and choppas from the stream and preview. No other loadout has been shown. 3) A 20 strong unit with one nob is not going to be an elite choice. 4) As an elite choice they would just be another unit stepping on nobz, MANz and burna boyz' toes. 5) An elite choice would not be equipped with just sluggas and choppas. 6) The contents of the box set is advertised as a start of a new army and is guaranteed to be the combat patrol when the codex hits. Three squighog riders are not going to be a troops unit. 7) People have been crying for new boyz a lot. GW has learned that they make a lot of money if they answer these calls.
This is the same as people arguing "new boyz might be multi-posed and come in boxes of 20 for $30". These are the new boyz, they might suck at first, but GW will tweak them so they'll eventually be played by everyone and then old boyz will be in the same situation as tactical marines, scouts, predators, land raiders, dreadnoughts and all the other iconic trueborn units that have gotten primaris equivalents.
If you can't read the writing on the wall, all I can say about that is "ignorance is a bliss".
Only way i see Snaggaboyz as elite is if those arent generic choppas, but powersword equivs.
20 models isnt unheard of for elites, Fulgurite Priests can goto 20 but nobody ever does because they dont fit in admech transports. That being said i still severely doubt these are elites and not troops.
Time will definitely tell. I agree with a lot of your points. I will say though that 20 models is not some insane number for an elite unit. A full unit of tankbustas with bomb squigs is 21 models. Take out the squigs and you still have 15 models. Burnas 15. Kommandos 15. Even taking a look at the fast attack slot, stormboyz have a maximum squad size of 30. There could also be 2 units of 10 snagga boyz in the box.
All this being said, I'm just playing devil's advocate here. I think the snagga boyz will be troops, but I wouldn't be surprised if they weren't.
I don't believe this will be the combat patrol box, however. This is a "limited edition" box that will be available for a couple of months before they release the codex and rest of the line. This is purely a beast snagga box that contains *most* of the models from the new line. GW doesn't like to put new models in the combat patrol boxes.
I also don't think it's fair to compare orks to marines. Replacing 120 boyz does not have the same effect as 20 tac marines.
Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote: I think they have to be troops, i remember them saying that you could run an entirely beast snagga army.
You don't need troops to fill a detachment. See vanguard, spearhead, and outrider detachments. The new codex will also likely give us ways to create these detachments without the CP penalty, similar to Dark Angels and other factions.
As much marketing talk as Gw said it will be a completely new codex.. the fact is they hype up every release like that. I still can show you videos when 8th Ed dropped Gw reps saying dead mobs will be competitive. Furthermore I have yet to see an army list completely revamped mid edition. No current codex has changed every strategem. Greentide is not going away, skar boyz will likely not go away. There was way more assumption in those statements saying those strats will be changed then anything I said. IMHO regular boyz will likely have its niche in 9th edition for now... but time will tell what direction they are going to push orks.
With the discussion around snagga boys as a potentially superior troops choice over boys, I think it will ultimately come down to cost.
Assuming in a vacuum with no points a snagga is better, it undoubtedly should be more expensive. Then the question would be whether that improvement is justified in the increase in points. An Ork boy is generally overcosted as it is, and with nobs being the absolute upper limit in terms how how much a boy can be improved (while also being overcosted), how much can a snagga improve on the boy formula without bloating it's points cost?
An Ork boy is generally considered to be better than a grot in a vacuum, yet for 8th grots were the go to because they were cheap and had a good interaction with other units. Ork boys might still be the go to choice regardless of how good snaggas are, or we could go back to using grots all the time. Who knows.
Afrodactyl wrote: With the discussion around snagga boys as a potentially superior troops choice over boys, I think it will ultimately come down to cost.
Assuming in a vacuum with no points a snagga is better, it undoubtedly should be more expensive. Then the question would be whether that improvement is justified in the increase in points. An Ork boy is generally overcosted as it is, and with nobs being the absolute upper limit in terms how how much a boy can be improved (while also being overcosted), how much can a snagga improve on the boy formula without bloating it's points cost?
An Ork boy is generally considered to be better than a grot in a vacuum, yet for 8th grots were the go to because they were cheap and had a good interaction with other units. Ork boys might still be the go to choice regardless of how good snaggas are, or we could go back to using grots all the time. Who knows.
It's possible that they rearrange the points a bit if they're trying to find a middle ground for the snaggas between boyz and nobz. Unfortunately, I think grots are likely to stay at 5, because that's apparently where GW is currently having their arbitrary points minimum at for units. Boyz can drop down to 7, and Snaggas can be around the 9-10 range depending on how much their stats are higher than boyz. Nobz are a real wild card, because they need to both kind of be either cheaper or tougher/stronger, which frankly I would much prefer the latter.
Do you have any experience with using the Warboss on Warbike not as a full on damage power house (brutal but kunnin', da killa klaw, Biggest boss) but as an "ard' as nails boss"?
Biggest boss, Ard' as nails, Supa Cybork. I have not tried it but i thought about giving it a try for maximum survivability at the cost of damage.
A 14 inch movement guy with advance and charge, with Toughness 8, 4++ and 5+++
BDBurrow wrote: Time will definitely tell. I agree with a lot of your points. I will say though that 20 models is not some insane number for an elite unit. A full unit of tankbustas with bomb squigs is 21 models. Take out the squigs and you still have 15 models. Burnas 15. Kommandos 15. Even taking a look at the fast attack slot, stormboyz have a maximum squad size of 30.
Almost no elite units in 40k are that large and even if they are, they aren't just equipped with basic rank and file weaponry. Fast attack units? Yeah, there are some hordes among them, but elite horde unit is kind of an oxymoron. There is absolutely nothing elite about beast snagga boyz.
There could also be 2 units of 10 snagga boyz in the box.
In all the pictures there have been 19 boyz and 1 nob and we have two of the same mono-pose models placed next to each other so that they are clearly not two units. There might be a box of 20 with just one nob in it, but I heavily doubt that considering other similar units of 20 also come in boxes of 10. Most likely one of the 10 boyz will have the option to be built into a nob, but in this case your guess is as good as mine.
I don't believe this will be the combat patrol box, however. This is a "limited edition" box that will be available for a couple of months before they release the codex and rest of the line. This is purely a beast snagga box that contains *most* of the models from the new line. GW doesn't like to put new models in the combat patrol boxes.
They have put box set contents both in start collecting boxes and combat patrols (drukhari) and it fits all the requirements - it doesn't require a glass bowl to guess they add up to 50 PL, it has a HQ you can't double up on, a sergeant character and a troops units so you can play them out of the box.
It's also not relevant to the point I made, as they still market the box to be playable on its own. The only real unknowns are whether the nob is elite or HQ and whether the squig riders are elite or fast attack.
I also don't think it's fair to compare orks to marines. Replacing 120 boyz does not have the same effect as 20 tac marines.
GW replaced the entire marine line with primaris equivalents. The only things missing are chapter-specific units and planes.
Replacing minimum of 90 boyz with a minimum of 60 boyz to play orks will help making the army more popular in the long run.
Time will tell.
Sorry, with everything we know, there is nothing left for time to tell unless some very unlikely things are going to happen.
And for the record, playing the devil's advocate means contradicting a popular opinion to foster debate, not to be against popular opinion for the sake of it.
edit: Edited the post to make it more fact-based. For various reasons (you can probably guess some of them) people denying reality currently make me really mad. This has nothing to do with you though, so I should not direct my anger at you.
Do you have any experience with using the Warboss on Warbike not as a full on damage power house (brutal but kunnin', da killa klaw, Biggest boss) but as an "ard' as nails boss"?
Biggest boss, Ard' as nails, Supa Cybork. I have not tried it but i thought about giving it a try for maximum survivability at the cost of damage.
A 14 inch movement guy with advance and charge, with Toughness 8, 4++ and 5+++
If there was a way to get -1 damage, maybe, but I don't feel that just T8 4+/4++/5+++ is enough to warrant the investment. He still will be splatted by combat experts or anti-tank with sufficient RoF.
I also think the Beastie Boyz will replace existing boyz, and in a list with 0 boyz, only beastie biyz, well you can simply use boyz as "count as" beastie boyz, like 50/50 (10 BB models and 10 B models for a 20 BB squad).
No opponent will object, of that I am sure.
This way we still get tu use our regular boyz to cut the cost by half for setting up an efficient green tide. Because yes, the efficient green tide will be one made of BBoyz. It is very naive to think otherwise. If not at codex launch, then at the next CA point adjustment
Do you have any experience with using the Warboss on Warbike not as a full on damage power house (brutal but kunnin', da killa klaw, Biggest boss) but as an "ard' as nails boss"?
Biggest boss, Ard' as nails, Supa Cybork. I have not tried it but i thought about giving it a try for maximum survivability at the cost of damage.
A 14 inch movement guy with advance and charge, with Toughness 8, 4++ and 5+++
I'm not sure that build would be worth it. A Boss just with Klaw or saw wouln't do a lot of damge on his own.
Do you have any experience with using the Warboss on Warbike not as a full on damage power house (brutal but kunnin', da killa klaw, Biggest boss) but as an "ard' as nails boss"?
Biggest boss, Ard' as nails, Supa Cybork. I have not tried it but i thought about giving it a try for maximum survivability at the cost of damage.
A 14 inch movement guy with advance and charge, with Toughness 8, 4++ and 5+++
I'm not sure that build would be worth it. A Boss just with Klaw or saw wouln't do a lot of damge on his own.
Yeah, with all the damage mitigating abilities marines have now, with either transhuman or DG/Dreadnoughts with -1D, the randomness of the Klaw makes it effectively a D1 weapon a lot of the times, while the saw is pretty hit or miss depending on what army you face and lacks the punch needed to kill the tougher stuff like Gravis/terminators. While I would love a tanky warboss, it's kind of redundant if their damage output is subpar and the Warboss lacks the wounds to be a sufficient anvil compared to units like Deathwing Knights or Blightlord Terminators.
Do you have any experience with using the Warboss on Warbike not as a full on damage power house (brutal but kunnin', da killa klaw, Biggest boss) but as an "ard' as nails boss"?
Biggest boss, Ard' as nails, Supa Cybork. I have not tried it but i thought about giving it a try for maximum survivability at the cost of damage.
A 14 inch movement guy with advance and charge, with Toughness 8, 4++ and 5+++
I tried it few times and makes no sence to me. He' s too dangerous to let him survive. They kill him anyway. His biggest chance to survive is to kill what can kill him first. To do it, he needs to be as strong as possible.
Character protection will keep him alive far better than those toughness boosts do.
Anything that can hurt him at all will kill him regardless, so just make him hit harder and kill'm first.
edit: Edited the post to make it more fact-based. For various reasons (you can probably guess some of them) people denying reality currently make me really mad. This has nothing to do with you though, so I should not direct my anger at you.
You and I have different definitions of reality. I guess we'll find out who's living in la-la-land in due time. Like I said, the only prediction you've made that I 100% disagree with is that the limited edition snagga box and the new ork 9th edtion combat patrol are the same box. The rest of the things that you are *angry* about, I was just making the point that WE HAVE NO IDEA how all of this is going to turn out after our army is supposedly getting a complete overhaul. That is my reality.
BDBurrow wrote: I was just making the point that WE HAVE NO IDEA how all of this is going to turn out after our army is supposedly getting a complete overhaul. That is my reality.
Yep, and that is exactly where you are wrong. We have pretty good idea of what is possible and what is not.
Also, even if Snaggas are 10-15% better than boys... if you want to still use your boys, use them?
I sincerely hope Boyz aren't just trash tier. I imagine they aren't because GW seems to have *generally* gotten better at making most stuff at least viable. Use your models, folks.
If it offends you boys aren't S tier anymore, I dunno what to tell ya. Times change.
Frankly, I think the new kits look great and look forward to building and painting them.
tulun wrote: Also, even if Snaggas are 10-15% better than boys... if you want to still use your boys, use them?
I sincerely hope Boyz aren't just trash tier. I imagine they aren't because GW seems to have *generally* gotten better at making most stuff at least viable. Use your models, folks.
If it offends you boys aren't S tier anymore, I dunno what to tell ya. Times change.
Frankly, I think the new kits look great and look forward to building and painting them.
I mean, boyz have been a fair bit trash for a long, long time now. Their main strength being that eventually the opponant will have to waste expensive heavy weapons on them and or the ability to swamp the board.
While I agree that Beastsnagga Boyz will be troops I doubt they´ll replace normal Boyz. Key word here being normal. Listening to the designer video he tells how they wanted to expand on Ork Kultur and this happened to be Snakebite territory. So we have this broadening fluff which needs to be tied together into a release. Thus some cool new units in the various squig riders and some foot to wrap it into a playable starting kit. Foot is nice since this also creates variation in a slot that has dated models.
This is like they had made an expansion for Speed Freaks with "Slick Boyz" consisting of faster moving Boyz with Mek Nobs added to the Buggy releases. It´s nothing like Primaris who are a fluff tied upgrade to the First Born and critically the most popular range in 40k; Marines. They are to be replaced because they are better - end of story. All hail Cawl. (And conveniently means lots of £)
Hence I wouldn´t expect Boyz to be replaced, but the troop slot expanded for modernization and variation.
I wouldn´t expect Tide to stay around as Drukhari lost Black Cornucopias. In a game of objectives having strats that instantly replaces the scoring units is unwise.
tulun wrote: I mean to be fair... they're pretty much the best we got right now.
In this codex, anyway. Goff Tide has had real legs.
Skarboyz near Thrakka are somewhat A tier, but here we are talking about boyz upgraded with a stratagem, a culture and a 300 point character which hands out insane buffs to them. For every other build boyz are not a unit you take because it's a good unit - they haven't been a good unit since 5th.
Mek gun smashas are S tier, boyz aren't even close.
Vineheart01 wrote: Yeah they said they werent replacing old marines either yet you never see them anymore. Primaris are just better.
Depends on the unit. Vanguard Vets shred; Sang guard are menaces.
Tac marines though? Yeah.. no.
Neither vanguard marines nor sanguine guard have gotten primaris equivalents (there are no primaris melee jump troops), so that's not really an argument. The only trueborn stuff that ever sees play are things that primaris can't do. It's quite unlikely that a choppa and slugga beasty boy can't do something a choppa and slugga boy can do.
Boyz and snaggas may have some important rules differences, e.g. perhaps only boyz will be able to greentide, and snaggas will get [insert cool new rule here]? If each has a different and useful battlefield role, then both will continue to be used.
It would seem silly to give them both the same rules, and have them differ only in points and a couple of stats - we'd then just mathhammer which is better value per points and take only that unit. That would be bad for GW's profits as we'd just counts-as the better unit rather than buying more kits - far easier to do with orks than say with primaris marines.
Reckon we'll get any rules previews this week? It really does feel like GW is giving the release schedule a bit of a ramp up, mixing things that in other times they'd possibly spread over several weeks. Will be very interesting to see when sisters get released and thus when we get our slot. IF the starts align it could be about a month out.
On another note. I have doubts that the upcoming points update will have anything of interest for orks. Certainly not overly interested in picking it up with covid still swirling about and limiting play time.
tulun wrote: I mean to be fair... they're pretty much the best we got right now.
In this codex, anyway. Goff Tide has had real legs.
Skarboyz near Thrakka are somewhat A tier, but here we are talking about boyz upgraded with a stratagem, a culture and a 300 point character which hands out insane buffs to them.
For every other build boyz are not a unit you take because it's a good unit - they haven't been a good unit since 5th.
Mek gun smashas are S tier, boyz aren't even close.
pretty much Jidmahs explanation. Boyz aren't even grade "A" by themselves, they require the aforementioned buffs to get close to "A" grade, and the supreme irony is they would be C grade at best if the meta wasn't so dependent on 2dmg weapon designs and a plethora of -AP weapons.
I ran a Ghaz led Goff list in a tournament awhile back and all 3 games I played I had opponents firing anti-tank weapons into my boyz because they had nothing else to target. I had opponents visibly annoyed that they had to use Plasma and melta on my boyz who were still able to shrug off some of them because of a KFF big mek nearby. if instead of running into these meta lists I ran into more TAC lists I would have probably lost, but atm most armies do not take enough anti-infantry weapons to handle 120 Boyz.
My impression from what they talked about in the preview is that there will be a more developed system of kulturs along the line of what we got in PA.
So, maybe you get to select an army wide kultur in addition to the clan, like speed freeks, beast snaggas, or tin 'eads, which will give you some general bonus, plus extra bonuses for the units with the kultur key word. Some clans interact better with certain kulturs, but you're free to mix and match as you please. This way it remains flexible, but you are rewarded by taking certain combinations.
Also, it has been clearly stated by Cruddace multiple times in various interviews that they intentionally go through which units have not seen much use in the current edition and "shake it up" in order to shift power to these at the expense of popular choices when updating the codexes. So I fully expect that all walkers will get a healthy buff in the new one, and that clans like Snakebites and Blood Axes also will get their chance to shine.
Agree with most everyone's thoughts on this. Boyz are not only in a terrible state competitively, but they are also overcosted. I don't know that I would even put them at S-tier for goffs with all the buffs. This is why I would expect them to be good in the new codex. Looking at other similarly costed models, you can predict how GW is going to balance them. It's typically not just a stat line modification. Look at the new Skitarii Rangers. 8ppm with a mediocre stat line, but a myriad of buffs that you can give them via upgrades, stratagems, auras, FW, etc. to make them extremely dangerous.
So, maybe you get to select an army wide kultur in addition to the clan, like speed freeks, beast snaggas, or tin 'eads, which will give you some general bonus, plus extra bonuses for the units with the kultur key word. Some clans interact better with certain kulturs, but you're free to mix and match as you please. This way it remains flexible, but you are rewarded by taking certain combinations.
and that clans like Snakebites and Blood Axes also will get their chance to shine.
This is spot on. It's no doubt snagga boyz will be more deadly as snakebites, and it's very possible that snakebites will be the new meta kultur. Boyz should have their place in other kulturs.
I have mixed feelings about gretchin. There seems to be an effort from GW of late to make really cool grot models, but the rules for Zodgrod were so underwhelming that I have serious doubts. My fear is that this will be where GW completely whiffs and grots will still be garbage tier, but I'm holding out hope! Who doesn't love grots? If we get grot snipers I will throw a grot themed party and you're all invited.
I expect some of our S-tier units and abilities to come down a bit. Mek gunz are an obvious choice. Max squad size down to 3 seems like a likely route. Burna bommer and ere we go are the other obvious choices.
I am officially torn, going to be going to another tournament next week and I am unsure what to bring. Do I go with competitive goff list featuring Ghaz and 120-150 boyz or do I go for fluffy/fun but not very competitive Evil sunz army hosting 30 bikes, 3 scrapjetz and a pair of burna bommerz?
I'm leaning towards just flooding the board with ork bodies goff style and seeing what happens but i'm not sold one way or the other.
I just hope boyz get a little bit of a buff in stats. You can get a skitari ranger for the same points, and those gits are pretty great. Maybe boyz can fight in two ranks?
Yes. A unit's worth is in part what meta you are slotting into. This is obvious. Boys are better in an elite meta, but are worse in a horde meta.
This is true of every unit in 40k, albeit it's not the only determinant of what makes a unit good.
2) They suck because they need a bunch of buffs and synergies.
... You mean what most armies have to do? Raw datasheets rarely make the unit. It's a combo of faction, stratagems, character support (etc).
These are both terrible arguments saying boys are "bad". In they are winning you games in tournaments, they are good my dudes.
Not entirely. Ork boyz are only good because nobody builds a competitive list to play against them. By almost every metric a Space Marine intercessor is better than a Boy, but rarely if ever do SM players take hordes of intercessors. Why? Because the meta is built to kill 3+ models with multi-wounds. There was a great example of this point that came up in a tournament awhile back. Basically an Ork list steam rolled through the competition until he ran into a sisters of battle list whose Anti-SM weapon of choice was.....a heavy bolter....and boy oh boy did he bring a lot of heavy bolters. That game the ork player won by the smallest margin of all his games, and it was wicked close. Keep in mind, a Heavy bolter is still not a great weapon for killing orkz, but its a lot better than say a plasma gun or a melta gun.
So an intercessor is still a good unit and is better than a boy, but because of the competitive meta, its markedly worse than a Boy.
Onto point 2. "they suck because they need a bunch of buffs and synergies". Again, even buffed fully a goff boy is still worse than an intercessor, but yet again because of the meta those boyz work better than intercessors. I do agree with the premise, i mean hell, look at 8th and the Loota bomb, Lootas sucked in 8th, but when you took 25 of them, mobbed them up, gave them DDD on 5s and shoot twice while being protected by a grot shield....yeah that was awesome.
SemperMortis wrote: I am officially torn, going to be going to another tournament next week and I am unsure what to bring. Do I go with competitive goff list featuring Ghaz and 120-150 boyz or do I go for fluffy/fun but not very competitive Evil sunz army hosting 30 bikes, 3 scrapjetz and a pair of burna bommerz?
I'm leaning towards just flooding the board with ork bodies goff style and seeing what happens but i'm not sold one way or the other.
Play for fun that way your not disappointed and not tired of moving 100+ troops for 6 games.
does anybody know some of them?
