SemperMortis wrote: I am officially torn, going to be going to another tournament next week and I am unsure what to bring. Do I go with competitive goff list featuring Ghaz and 120-150 boyz or do I go for fluffy/fun but not very competitive Evil sunz army hosting 30 bikes, 3 scrapjetz and a pair of burna bommerz?
I'm leaning towards just flooding the board with ork bodies goff style and seeing what happens but i'm not sold one way or the other.
Play for fun that way your not disappointed and not tired of moving 100+ troops for 6 games.
I'm going to be playing against a good friend of mine who just recently won a GT so i want to beat him just to bring him down a peg
At the moment due to the core keyword things are moving towards an infantry heavy meta. Or at least that's the vibe i'm getting. At the very least it feels like most lists should have a decent amount of chaff clearing. It will be interesting to see if the skitarri horde does become meta, and if sisters will have several viable horde lists too. To say nothing of orks in the future.
cody.d. wrote: At the moment due to the core keyword things are moving towards an infantry heavy meta. Or at least that's the vibe i'm getting. At the very least it feels like most lists should have a decent amount of chaff clearing. It will be interesting to see if the skitarri horde does become meta, and if sisters will have several viable horde lists too. To say nothing of orks in the future.
Keeping in mind that it is entirely dependent upon what is in our new codex, as it stands currently, if Skitarri and sisters become "hordesque" armies I feel it would negatively impact orkz since it would force more of the current meta to bring anti-horde weapons in greater numbers than they presently do.
The White scars list that just won the Maryland GT is a great example of what I am talking about. his list has basically NOTHING that can deal with hordes except bladeguard in CC....which is where orkz want you to be with them.
Get rid of the 6 Multi-Melta attack bikes he brought and exchange those for anti-infantry weapons and suddenly that list becomes a lot scarier for orkz.
tulun wrote: 2) They suck because they need a bunch of buffs and synergies.
... You mean what most armies have to do? Raw datasheets rarely make the unit. It's a combo of faction, stratagems, character support (etc).
These are both terrible arguments saying boys are "bad". If they are winning you games in tournaments, they are good my dudes.
Couldn´t agree more. I´ll just keep harping on the fact that players stare themselves blind into one factor of the game; how well unit x kills stuff.
If my 30 Boyz caused the opponent to spend x time taking them them down while they held an objective, tarpitted the opponents assault unit or bodyblocked them it´s a win! If this netted me VP it´s a win and they are "good".
tulun wrote: In they are winning you games in tournaments, they are good my dudes.
I disagree with that. First, not everyone plays the single specific klan that makes boyz win games in tournaments. I don't play goffs for example, I'm mostly Deathskulls, so I don't really care if they contribute to win tournaments, that's not my army.
Second, tournament metas aren't exactly the same metas that most casual players experience everyday. In my meta, which is a friendly to semi-competitive one, lists are basically TAC oriented, not designed to be tailored against SM or heavy elites, which is what we've basically seen in tournaments so far in this edition instead.
Thing is, if I play against a friend and we both know what armies we are going to play (not the lists though) the greentide is mediocre at most. If meta is heavy on hordes, then it's even pure garbage as players expect to clash against them pretty often and their lists reflect that.
Buggies and Mek gunz, light vehicles that count as single models once deployed, are really good because they do well in any environment but they're also valuable units for most of the klans, they aren't stricly dependant on a single klan and a single list archetype.
Is it too much to hope for more buffing models for Orks? The AoS Warchanter has been around for years now and the Goff Rocker from WD was pretty cool, they could easily do a Codex entry for it and sell another new clampack character to a lot of people. Or a coven of weirdboyz with minders doing zog knows wot on the table, taking the AoS Gloomapite Gitz... Whatever they're called l... Gobbo mini-character unit as an inspiration.
Orks have all those quirky specialists that are *literally* created in-universe to get odd jobs done or goad other Orks into doing stuff and it feels so underutilized. Then again elite slots are pretty stuffed as is.
Scactha wrote: Hence I wouldn´t expect Boyz to be replaced, but the troop slot expanded for modernization and variation.
Vineheart01 wrote: Theres no way boyz do anything once beastsnaggas drop. The one and absolute ONLY way is if GW does a dumb and they suck balls
snaggaz are my last hope to ever play trukkboyz again... maybe i am dillusional BUT if they were like 10ppm s5, 3attacks base AND choppas finally get their -1ap (or somethin similiar to blade artists) they would be alternative to boyz and NOT replace them. you could have more elite style snaggaz in few numbers (max 20 per mob) or you can go full horde with normal boyz. Everybody Happy Now.
but considering the trackrecord of GW regardings orks.... i wouldnt get my hopes up. the lead designer of the codex already stated, he thinks orks are doing very well in competitive 40k, not realizing that it only works with hordes and hordes of boyz (which many players, me included, dont want to field ) and in conjunction with the before mentioned anti-primaris meta
i talked yesterday about my mates bloodbribes and how they can do 50+ attacks, hitting on 2's with rerollable wounds (2cp), ranging from -1 up to -4ap in one swing and then could fight again with another use of 2cp...
thats on a 10 model unit for not even 150points
how the hell can 8 points choppa boyz with s4 and no ap whatsoever compete in that enviroment?
Scactha wrote: Hence I wouldn´t expect Boyz to be replaced, but the troop slot expanded for modernization and variation.
Vineheart01 wrote: Theres no way boyz do anything once beastsnaggas drop. The one and absolute ONLY way is if GW does a dumb and they suck balls
i talked yesterday about my mates bloodbribes and how they can do 50+ attacks, hitting on 2's with rerollable wounds (2cp), ranging from -1 up to -4ap in one swing and then could fight again with another use of 2cp...
thats on a 10 model unit for not even 150points
how the hell can 8 points choppa boyz with s4 and no ap whatsoever compete in that enviroment?
I agree that our 8 point boyz need some love, but no one wants drukhari levels of OPness. Ad Mech seems toned down (only the shooty ironstriders seem really OP) compared drukhari which is good, I think we want similar levels for orks.
So we need another metric than bloodbrides (not bloodbriBes lol -very good if the pun was intended, love it-) IMHO. Regular wyches perhaps ?
well the only difference between them and regular wyches is +1 to hit and 6's do additional 2ap. even regular wyches do 53attacks, rerolling wounds with -1 up to -3 ap and they cost even less and can be fielded en masse in an excellent transport (big and small) : )
orks would still lack the 4++ in combat, flexability of 5model squads and all the weapon options on regular boyz (the snagga kit seems to be only slugga, chappas and a mandatory powerklaw thingy for the nob) AND they still have to ride around in trukks (less mobile, less durable, less firepower and less CC potential than a raider)
...my point beeing, no i dont want the ultra OP unit... just something that can compete. regular boyz in a trukk dont do squat :/ hence the only option i have now is either MANz or Nobs, which in turn are way to costly for what they do and arent troops... so i am still stuck with either a vanguard or gretchin for a batallion
Binabik15 wrote: Is it too much to hope for more buffing models for Orks? The AoS Warchanter has been around for years now and the Goff Rocker from WD was pretty cool, they could easily do a Codex entry for it and sell another new clampack character to a lot of people. Or a coven of weirdboyz with minders doing zog knows wot on the table, taking the AoS Gloomapite Gitz... Whatever they're called l... Gobbo mini-character unit as an inspiration.
Orks have all those quirky specialists that are *literally* created in-universe to get odd jobs done or goad other Orks into doing stuff and it feels so underutilized. Then again elite slots are pretty stuffed as is.
i think they will go down that lieutenant route... the snagga nob riding a squig was called a "unit" that could lead mobs of squigriders to "down a titan" :rolleyes:
idk... they said they only revealed half of the new releases (which would mean 4-5 "new" units) and i doubt there are more new mob kits coming... but i can totally see meks buffing vehicles, doks treating boyz and runtherds either buffing grots (meh) or debuffing enemy units. not to mention we already have KFF meks and waaghbanna nobs doing similar things (rewording their rules to give their buff to one unit in x inches in the command phase instead of an aura wouldnt be very hard)
tulun wrote: 2) They suck because they need a bunch of buffs and synergies.
... You mean what most armies have to do? Raw datasheets rarely make the unit. It's a combo of faction, stratagems, character support (etc).
These are both terrible arguments saying boys are "bad". If they are winning you games in tournaments, they are good my dudes.
Couldn´t agree more. I´ll just keep harping on the fact that players stare themselves blind into one factor of the game; how well unit x kills stuff.
If my 30 Boyz caused the opponent to spend x time taking them them down while they held an objective, tarpitted the opponents assault unit or bodyblocked them it´s a win! If this netted me VP it´s a win and they are "good".
I won tournaments in 7th with Warbikers and battlewagons. Were those good units in 7th? I won tournaments in 8th with horde Kommandos (before rule of 3) were Kommandos good?
I'm well aware that a unit can be good even if it isn't good at killing stuff. The problem is that boyz AREN'T good at the things you think they are good at, they are only "good" at those things because yet again the meta is in favor of their cheap points cost and stat line. When you show up to a tournament and the vast majority of the lists have more units designed to kill tanks/heavy infantry than they do to kill light and medium infantry you know the meta is skewed. I'll again point out that recent Maryland GT White Scars winning list, the most "anti-infantry" unit he had were 2 units of blade guard and 2 units of vanguard veterans. Both units are only good at removing infantry in close combat and both are better against HEAVY and medium infantry rather than horde. On the flipside of that, if this guy wasn't so worried about facing off against SM and brought actual anti-horde weapons in 50% the capacity that he brought anti-elite weapons he would instead take a unit of Aggressors instead of MM attack bikes, going from 6 shots of melta and 12 bolter shots a turn against a mob of orkz to 48 S4 shots a turn (15pts more).
Against most anti-infantry weapons a unit of intercessors is markedly more durable that a similar amount of boyz. 10 intercessors is 20 T4 3+ wounds. To kill them you need 120 S4 hits. 10 intercessors is 200pts. To kill 240pts of Orkz (30 boyz) you need 72 S4 hits or if you want a point for point comparison, to kill 200pts of Boyz (25 boyz) you need 60 S4 shots, or another way to view that, literally 1/2 as durable as an intercessor. That math holds true for all weapons at -1 AP and only skews in favor of the orkz at AP-2+ So as far as holding an objective, yeah boyz are better, but that is because as I mentioned in the last paragraph, people are bringing AP weapons with 2-3 dmg rather than a bunch of S4 attacks with no AP which you really don't need vs orkz. Yet again, the meta skews the results so that Ork boyz are actually punching above their weight class thanks to the lack of weapons fire directed at them.
Thing is, if I play against a friend and we both know what armies we are going to play (not the lists though) the greentide is mediocre at most. If meta is heavy on hordes, then it's even pure garbage as players expect to clash against them pretty often and their lists reflect that.
So... the meta you play in affects how well a unit does?
tulun wrote: 2) They suck because they need a bunch of buffs and synergies.
... You mean what most armies have to do? Raw datasheets rarely make the unit. It's a combo of faction, stratagems, character support (etc).
These are both terrible arguments saying boys are "bad". If they are winning you games in tournaments, they are good my dudes.
Couldn´t agree more. I´ll just keep harping on the fact that players stare themselves blind into one factor of the game; how well unit x kills stuff.
If my 30 Boyz caused the opponent to spend x time taking them them down while they held an objective, tarpitted the opponents assault unit or bodyblocked them it´s a win! If this netted me VP it´s a win and they are "good".
Tarpits are units that are incredibly hard to shift, allowing them to make taking control of a section of the board excessively difficult for your opponent.
I wouldn't define boyz as a tarpit unit. Unfortunately, boyz don't do this very well as they just aren't durable enough. Boyz currently fall under the positional board control category which is why hordes of 120+ aren't unpopular. Their goal is just to block your opponent with bodies and gain a big enough lead in rounds 1-3 that your opponent can't make it up. My issue with this is it doesn't feel *orky*. A horde of ork boyz should be lethal and terrifying, not just a bump in the road.
I think somethin that could help boyz is a slight points bump and put em to t5 (da gitz shrug off bolter shots in the lore), or give them the ability to fight in multiple ranks or somethin, sad day when you go to krump an elite melee unit and only get like 5 boyz in contact.
Oh no a change to scramblers. Well maybe its a good thing i dont know. I just always take scramblers and usually never have issues finishing it.
On the other hand Thin their ranks gets changed to "Take no prisoners" or something, and as long as its not a vehicle, monster or character, then you count the wounds statistics rather than models, making it actually feasable against things like custodies or terminator armies.
Beardedragon wrote: Oh no a change to scramblers. Well maybe its a good thing i dont know. I just always take scramblers and usually never have issues finishing it.
On the other hand Thin their ranks gets changed to "Take no prisoners" or something, and as long as its not a vehicle, monster or character, then you count the wounds statistics rather than models, making it actually feasable against things like custodies or terminator armies.
At least that one looks interesting.
Sounds like it will be an action that you have to perform in each table quarter instead of deployment zones, similar to recon sweep from the incursion reconnaissance mission. Scramblers was easily countered by an opponent that knows how to screen. This is a welcome change. I'm glad to see they are cutting back on the all or nothing theme, and also finally giving armies without a 9th ed codex an opportunity to compete on secondaries.
Vineheart01 wrote: they also said the stompa would be one of our best units when our codex was coming out.
Take those claims with half a grain of salt.
Vineheart01 wrote: they also said the stompa would be one of our best units when our codex was coming out.
Take those claims with half a grain of salt.
Vineheart01 wrote: they also said the stompa would be one of our best units when our codex was coming out.
Take those claims with half a grain of salt.
Beardedragon wrote: Oh no a change to scramblers. Well maybe its a good thing i dont know. I just always take scramblers and usually never have issues finishing it.
On the other hand Thin their ranks gets changed to "Take no prisoners" or something, and as long as its not a vehicle, monster or character, then you count the wounds statistics rather than models, making it actually feasable against things like custodies or terminator armies.
At least that one looks interesting.
Sounds like it will be an action that you have to perform in each table quarter instead of deployment zones, similar to recon sweep from the incursion reconnaissance mission. Scramblers was easily countered by an opponent that knows how to screen. This is a welcome change. I'm glad to see they are cutting back on the all or nothing theme, and also finally giving armies without a 9th ed codex an opportunity to compete on secondaries.
100% agree. When playing my DG, it just feels stupid to have an automatic 9 VP from spread the sickness against armies who struggle to find even two good objectives.
snaggaz are my last hope to ever play trukkboyz again... maybe i am dillusional BUT if they were like 10ppm s5, 3attacks base AND choppas finally get their -1ap (or somethin similiar to blade artists) they would be alternative to boyz and NOT replace them. you could have more elite style snaggaz in few numbers (max 20 per mob) or you can go full horde with normal boyz. Everybody Happy Now.
BINGO.
Fortunately, dev interview appeared to support this, with him saying they were trying to support different playstyles. For me, this was a that maybe he was referring in part to mechanized orks.
Boyz are very square peg-round hole for that role. Snagga boyz would be perfect if they were as described above. It's an obvious hole and would open up so many avenues. I'm very anxious just to hear the magic word "troops."
quite frankly, i'd be surprised if the beastsnaggas are 10pts unless they got 2w somehow. I still believe theyre gonna be T5 (and nobs getting bumped up to that too) but the wound difference is the main reason to be a Nob, possibly the armor too.
W/o that 2nd wound they'd be easier to kill than a Necron Warrior (13pts) by a large margin and nowhere near as shooty as a Ranger (8ppm) while having Primaris level melee (~18ppm)
Vineheart01 wrote: quite frankly, i'd be surprised if the beastsnaggas are 10pts unless they got 2w somehow. I still believe theyre gonna be T5 (and nobs getting bumped up to that too) but the wound difference is the main reason to be a Nob, possibly the armor too.
W/o that 2nd wound they'd be easier to kill than a Necron Warrior (13pts) by a large margin and nowhere near as shooty as a Ranger (8ppm) while having Primaris level melee (~18ppm)
i dont care how easy they are to kill... i care HOW MUCH THEY CAN KILL
if i want durable stuff i just get more regular boyz... we all had that already a couple of editions ago with ardboyz. they're just dont worth the pointjump. same with stormboyz.
we NEED heavy hitting gitz, s5 ap1 with lotz of attacks that can fit in a cheap trukk and threaten almost anything. i dont wanna pay for the extra wound because thats what nobz are for
Vineheart01 wrote: quite frankly, i'd be surprised if the beastsnaggas are 10pts unless they got 2w somehow. I still believe theyre gonna be T5 (and nobs getting bumped up to that too) but the wound difference is the main reason to be a Nob, possibly the armor too.
W/o that 2nd wound they'd be easier to kill than a Necron Warrior (13pts) by a large margin and nowhere near as shooty as a Ranger (8ppm) while having Primaris level melee (~18ppm)
i dont care how easy they are to kill... i care HOW MUCH THEY CAN KILL
if i want durable stuff i just get more regular boyz... we all had that already a couple of editions ago with ardboyz. they're just dont worth the pointjump. same with stormboyz.
we NEED heavy hitting gitz, s5 ap1 with lotz of attacks that can fit in a cheap trukk and threaten almost anything. i dont wanna pay for the extra wound because thats what nobz are for
Vineheart01 wrote: quite frankly, i'd be surprised if the beastsnaggas are 10pts unless they got 2w somehow. I still believe theyre gonna be T5 (and nobs getting bumped up to that too) but the wound difference is the main reason to be a Nob, possibly the armor too.
W/o that 2nd wound they'd be easier to kill than a Necron Warrior (13pts) by a large margin and nowhere near as shooty as a Ranger (8ppm) while having Primaris level melee (~18ppm)
Wow, has it occurred to you that they think boyz are worth 8 and Gretchin are worth 5? Why would you be surprised, as though +1S and -1 AP and +1 attack would be worth 2 ppm when they expect 2 CP for +1 to your armor save and they're increasing points all across this Ed?
Vineheart01 wrote: Simple, they want snaggas to sell.
We already have boyz/grots, they dont care. GW has shown this behavior several times.
Yup, if their treatment of firstborn vs primaris has shown anything, its that the new stuff will generally have the favour of better rules barring a few outliers.
Though the fact that they're gradually phasing out a product line could contribute to that. Though upon saying that it would be interesting if GW tries to phase out the old style ork in favour for this new savage ish ork. Dunno.
cody.d. wrote: Though the fact that they're gradually phasing out a product line could contribute to that. Though upon saying that it would be interesting if GW tries to phase out the old style ork in favour for this new savage ish ork. Dunno.
I don't think it will be immediate, but it will be inevitable IMO, because the current boyz kit is something that old Ork players have in spades already that is often being sold in bulk through resellers like eBay and it's not something GW can sell as readily IMO to newer players in terms of the "new model look".
There really is no business reason to phase out any plastic kits. They can just leave the mould on a shelf somewhere and just plan another run of boyz for it when stock has run out.
Vineheart01 wrote: Simple, they want snaggas to sell.
We already have boyz/grots, they dont care. GW has shown this behavior several times.
Yup, if their treatment of firstborn vs primaris has shown anything, its that the new stuff will generally have the favour of better rules barring a few outliers.
eeehhhmmmm remember the first release of the new buggies??? 140 points for the ruggatrukk (with less shots if i remember correctly)?? xD
if anything, GW has shown over and over again that they either dont care about orks (as a player faction that is) or they have absolutely no idea on how to balance orks properly
so yeah... my hopes are high and ready to be gob-smacked
I'm expecting the era of the 9 point grot.
I honestly just want an Armered Krumpany list to be a bit better without triple killtank. I think a fun design space would be zzap guns autohitting, then having their weird strength stuff.
I want stronger or more duable characters for Orks. 4 wound weird boys with toughness 4 and a 6 up save? What an absolute joke.
Same for the big mek with KFFs. All ork characters should by standard at least hit very hard, even psykers. Orks are strong, why do they hit like wet noodles sometimes? Big mek with KFF doesnt even have any AP on his weapon..
And the KFF should go back to give invul saves in CC as well.
heard a rumor (nto confirmed just from a friend in the tournament scene who I know play tested for 9th so maybe a bit of credence). grots 2 for 5 points was tested but not confirmed to being used in codex. Caviat being grots can only be bought in pairs rather than per model.
G00fySmiley wrote: heard a rumor (nto confirmed just from a friend in the tournament scene who I know play tested for 9th so maybe a bit of credence). grots 2 for 5 points was tested but not confirmed to being used in codex. Caviat being grots can only be bought in pairs rather than per model.
I'd be down for that, or just like, buy a 30 man squad for 90 points, like new guardsman stuff
Vineheart01 wrote: Simple, they want snaggas to sell.
We already have boyz/grots, they dont care. GW has shown this behavior several times.
Yup, if their treatment of firstborn vs primaris has shown anything, its that the new stuff will generally have the favour of better rules barring a few outliers.
eeehhhmmmm remember the first release of the new buggies??? 140 points for the ruggatrukk (with less shots if i remember correctly)?? xD
if anything, GW has shown over and over again that they either dont care about orks (as a player faction that is) or they have absolutely no idea on how to balance orks properly
so yeah... my hopes are high and ready to be gob-smacked
That's what I meant barring a few outliers. There were only 3 buggies that were decent upon release, the scrapjet, the shokkjump dragsta and the KBB. It's also not a great comparison since they flat out deleted the old buggy/wartrakk datasheet/model since these 6 six new ones effectively replaced it. In the instance where GW wants to phase out models without flat out replacing them, they have done it gradually as they fine tune the new unit over time to slowly become dominant.
Not saying I'm for that btw, but I can see it happening over the course of the next editions.
Who knows at this point, they said they should have been out by now so they could just appear outta nowhere.
It doesnt sound like theyre getting an overhaul at this time though while Orks are getting one.
Beardedragon wrote: I would assume the Ork codex came before the Grey knights/thousand sons one? Given we've been shown models and the codex was shown earlier as well.
I'd assume so as well, but it's xenos vs power armor gitz, who are very much the favored flavor of 40k.
Vineheart01 wrote: Simple, they want snaggas to sell. We already have boyz/grots, they dont care. GW has shown this behavior several times.
Yup, if their treatment of firstborn vs primaris has shown anything, its that the new stuff will generally have the favour of better rules barring a few outliers.
eeehhhmmmm remember the first release of the new buggies??? 140 points for the ruggatrukk (with less shots if i remember correctly)?? xD if anything, GW has shown over and over again that they either dont care about orks (as a player faction that is) or they have absolutely no idea on how to balance orks properly
so yeah... my hopes are high and ready to be gob-smacked
Wow, I had forgotten about the 140pt Squigbuggy. Honestly, i think all the buggies except the scrapjet look ugly i've only bought scrapjetz so far and my next major purchase isn't going to be buggies its going to be the snaggas which I think look awesome.
Keeping in mind this is based on my opinion, but ugly models with bad stats = low sales and a bad business plan
Sluggaloo wrote: So you know I said I was done with Goff horde, done with Gazz and done trying to make WWSWF work with orks? Well I'm going to be trying all of those thins at once!
Spoiler:
Goffs Battalion
HQ1. Gazzy (300)
HQ2. Weirdboy Warphead w/ Da Jump & Warpath (75)
T1. 27 Skarboy Choppa Boys + Nob Big Choppa (229)
T2. 27 Skarboy Choppa Boys + Nob Dual Choppa (224)
T3. 27 Skarboy Choppa Boys + Nob Dual Choppa (224)
T4. 27 Skarboy Choppa Boys + Nob Dual Choppa (224)
E1. 5 Kommandos (45)
E2. 5 Kommandos (45)
E3: Nob Waaagh Banner (88)
E4: Painboy Warlord Brutal but Kunnin w/ Killa Klaw (65)
HS1: MekGunz inc. 6 Smasha Guns (240)
HS2: MekGunz inc. 6 Smasha Guns (240)
TIL Mekgun Smasha guns are great WWSWF choices as all of the original mob have to be killed. So I will bring 12 of them + Gaz to a local TTS tourney. Will let you know how I do
The tourney did not go too well, 120 boys seem like they are not enough screen to protect the mek guns, and they were not as good WWSWFF targetts as I'd hoped. Gazzy also is relatively hard to keep alive. Alas, I await the new codex.
Sluggaloo wrote: So you know I said I was done with Goff horde, done with Gazz and done trying to make WWSWF work with orks? Well I'm going to be trying all of those thins at once!
Spoiler:
Goffs Battalion
HQ1. Gazzy (300)
HQ2. Weirdboy Warphead w/ Da Jump & Warpath (75)
T1. 27 Skarboy Choppa Boys + Nob Big Choppa (229)
T2. 27 Skarboy Choppa Boys + Nob Dual Choppa (224)
T3. 27 Skarboy Choppa Boys + Nob Dual Choppa (224)
T4. 27 Skarboy Choppa Boys + Nob Dual Choppa (224)
E1. 5 Kommandos (45)
E2. 5 Kommandos (45)
E3: Nob Waaagh Banner (88)
E4: Painboy Warlord Brutal but Kunnin w/ Killa Klaw (65)
HS1: MekGunz inc. 6 Smasha Guns (240)
HS2: MekGunz inc. 6 Smasha Guns (240)
TIL Mekgun Smasha guns are great WWSWF choices as all of the original mob have to be killed. So I will bring 12 of them + Gaz to a local TTS tourney. Will let you know how I do
The tourney did not go too well, 120 boys seem like they are not enough screen to protect the mek guns, and they were not as good WWSWFF targetts as I'd hoped. Gazzy also is relatively hard to keep alive. Alas, I await the new codex.
My feeling is you have to go hard on either mek gunz or infantry, you split it up a bit by having almost 25% of your list as mek gunz. The list I'm thinking of bringing to an event is
Ghaz (300pts)
Weirdboy w/ Da Jump (75pts)
MA Big Mek w/ KFF, Warlord, Da Kleverest Boss, Grot Oiler, Kustom Shoota, Might is right, Da Killa Klaw (123pts)
Ghaz is just a big mean beatstick who stays close to the boyz to buff them, the Painboy stays next to him the entire game to use medisquig on him as often as possible, the MAKFF Big Mek tags along as well to buff all the boyz nearby AND to act as a second beat stick, 5 attacks (6 on charge) at S12 AP-3, 3D rerolling failed wounds isn't bad. The Oiler is there to be a 5pt ablative wound.
Weirdboy Da Jumps anyone/everything (cept ghaz) around the table as needed while the boyz bum rush forward with the HQs and Painboy to smack the enemy around. The Kommandos come in from reserve to either hold an objective, perform secondaries or just be annoying. The grots are there to hold the backfield out of LOS and be useless.
As I'm nearing the end of my painting backlog, I'm having trouble deciding what I should purchase next. My favorite lists of 9th so far have been goff and evil suns horde. I'm not too interested in buggies but do occasionally run a mechanized DS list with trukk boyz, deff dreads, morkanaut, and MANZ/grots in a b-wagon. How would you guys rank the following units in terms of *safe* bets to have a place in an army once the codex drops?
Vineheart01 wrote: Simple, they want snaggas to sell.
We already have boyz/grots, they dont care. GW has shown this behavior several times.
Yup, if their treatment of firstborn vs primaris has shown anything, its that the new stuff will generally have the favour of better rules barring a few outliers.
If their ork releases have shown anything, they have a tendency to drop lemons on release.
Sluggaloo wrote: So you know I said I was done with Goff horde, done with Gazz and done trying to make WWSWF work with orks? Well I'm going to be trying all of those thins at once!
Spoiler:
Goffs Battalion
HQ1. Gazzy (300)
HQ2. Weirdboy Warphead w/ Da Jump & Warpath (75)
T1. 27 Skarboy Choppa Boys + Nob Big Choppa (229)
T2. 27 Skarboy Choppa Boys + Nob Dual Choppa (224)
T3. 27 Skarboy Choppa Boys + Nob Dual Choppa (224)
T4. 27 Skarboy Choppa Boys + Nob Dual Choppa (224)
E1. 5 Kommandos (45)
E2. 5 Kommandos (45)
E3: Nob Waaagh Banner (88)
E4: Painboy Warlord Brutal but Kunnin w/ Killa Klaw (65)
HS1: MekGunz inc. 6 Smasha Guns (240)
HS2: MekGunz inc. 6 Smasha Guns (240)
TIL Mekgun Smasha guns are great WWSWF choices as all of the original mob have to be killed. So I will bring 12 of them + Gaz to a local TTS tourney. Will let you know how I do
The tourney did not go too well, 120 boys seem like they are not enough screen to protect the mek guns, and they were not as good WWSWFF targetts as I'd hoped. Gazzy also is relatively hard to keep alive. Alas, I await the new codex.
I realize KFF is restrictive with 120 boys, but did you consider throwing one in to provide the horde some more durability instead of the waaagh banner?
Ghaz (300pts)
Weirdboy w/ Da Jump (75pts)
MA Big Mek w/ KFF, Warlord, Da Kleverest Boss, Grot Oiler, Kustom Shoota, Might is right, Da Killa Klaw (123pts)
nothing personal against you, but that list makes me want to vomit hard i dont wanna field 180 models i dont wanna field 3 super heavies i dont wanna field 18 mek gunz
i dont wanna to have to pack my things by the end of round 2 just because i didnt min/max a monotone list, when going against a medicore army lead by a medicore opponent...
please for mork and gorks sake... let the snagga release be somethin good...
as i understood it the next codecies are SoB, Orks and then TS and GK my guess would be orks by the end of july
EDIT:
oh btw... i've printed some buggies... but i cant get a hold on any bases..... they're 150x92 right? anyone know where i can get some (EU)?
BDBurrow wrote: As I'm nearing the end of my painting backlog, I'm having trouble deciding what I should purchase next. My favorite lists of 9th so far have been goff and evil suns horde. I'm not too interested in buggies but do occasionally run a mechanized DS list with trukk boyz, deff dreads, morkanaut, and MANZ/grots in a b-wagon. How would you guys rank the following units in terms of *safe* bets to have a place in an army once the codex drops?
I'm leaning towards 15 stormboyz and some grots. From the previews of the new secondaries, I'm expecting fast sacrificial MSUs to be mucho valuable.
More wagons with slots for Big shootas and main gun with the magnets seems to be fine. Kannonwagon is very solid option right now, normal BW with Forktress and Deffrolla is great and gunwagon with ZagZap is also not bad at all. And Battlewagon is simply iconic model. Ork equivalent of Landrider.
Nobody has any idea what will works when codex drops and most of the speculation here are just a fun way how give your fantasies some space. Go back in history of this or previous thread and you will see that most of them was always wrong. There is enough time between now to moment when we will see, what is an interesting option from the new codex to make pair of Battlewagons.
And in the long range perspective, there will be a meta with the battlewagons. Sometimes….
Tomsug wrote: Thousand Sons and Grey Knights codexes announced. So with Sisters announced earlier, it is at least 3 new codexes before the Orks.
Orktober?
On other hand, new CA / Field Manual announced with pre-order from this week. So this mix our lists at least.
You might want to re-read that article.
It's AdMech -> Sisters -> Orks -> TS/GK
Automatically Appended Next Post:
RedNoak wrote: oh btw... i've printed some buggies... but i cant get a hold on any bases..... they're 150x92 right? anyone know where i can get some (EU)?
They also have some pretty awesome scenic bases if you feel like spending more money on your base than on the model
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BDBurrow wrote: As I'm nearing the end of my painting backlog, I'm having trouble deciding what I should purchase next. My favorite lists of 9th so far have been goff and evil suns horde. I'm not too interested in buggies but do occasionally run a mechanized DS list with trukk boyz, deff dreads, morkanaut, and MANZ/grots in a b-wagon. How would you guys rank the following units in terms of *safe* bets to have a place in an army once the codex drops?
I'm leaning towards 15 stormboyz and some grots. From the previews of the new secondaries, I'm expecting fast sacrificial MSUs to be mucho valuable.
You're probably right with the stormboyz, though there is still a chance that GW will try to prevent such strategies.
The battlewagon has great potential, as its main problem right now is that there are few units worth transporting. However, flash gits, burnas, beast snagga boyz, nobz or even lootas all might turn into units that you might want to bring again, and at that point a second wagon would be a great asset to your walker list.
Kanz I honestly don't see becoming great. They have a fundamental problem of being a tanky shooting unit with too little dakka that pays a ton of points for melee ability. They can be saved, but I don't think any unit in other 9th edition codices has received in a magnitude that would be necessary to fix them. If you imply malice, anyone who started orks a few editions ago is probably swimming in kanz(top choice in 5th, part of many boxes), so there is little business incentive to make them great again.
Warbikers really are a coinflip. Either they become a decent board control element or they will remain a fast overpriced unit that does nothing well besides moving fast.
They also have some pretty awesome scenic bases if you feel like spending more money on your base than on the model
thx yeah i live in germany, but arent those to big? thought buggy bases were 150mm
found a seller in spain, bit expensive for some mdf but printing bases is a nightmare (especially large ones^^)
Jidmah wrote: There really is no business reason to phase out any plastic kits. They can just leave the mould on a shelf somewhere and just plan another run of boyz for it when stock has run out.
Well until mould wears out. Those things don't last forever.first details starts to suffer, eventually needs to be done again or retired
Storage and lost production time from changing moulds and not doing better selling also matters.
They also have some pretty awesome scenic bases if you feel like spending more money on your base than on the model
thx yeah i live in germany, but arent those to big? thought buggy bases were 150mm
found a seller in spain, bit expensive for some mdf but printing bases is a nightmare (especially large ones^^)
I think you're right. Oddly enough, the GW store says that the snazzwagon is provided on a 170mm base.
Jidmah wrote: There really is no business reason to phase out any plastic kits. They can just leave the mould on a shelf somewhere and just plan another run of boyz for it when stock has run out.
Well until mould wears out. Those things don't last forever.first details starts to suffer, eventually needs to be done again or retired
Considering how we still see the places where they drilled holes in to the moulds on some eldar models, I don't think retirement is a huge issue for those moulds.
Storage and lost production time from changing moulds and not doing better selling also matters.
They will change moulds anyways, and as long as people keep buying, it's worth producing them. It's also not like those moulds are huge, so the storage cost will be next to nothing.
There simply is not reason to retire a plastic mould which has already been developed and paid for.
Bases for buggies are hard to find, I also struggled a lot to find a few with the appropriate size. I manged to get some MDF 150mm oval bases off ebay, from a spanish or french shop if I'm not mistaken.
Ghaz (300pts)
Weirdboy w/ Da Jump (75pts)
MA Big Mek w/ KFF, Warlord, Da Kleverest Boss, Grot Oiler, Kustom Shoota, Might is right, Da Killa Klaw (123pts)
nothing personal against you, but that list makes me want to vomit hard i dont wanna field 180 models i dont wanna field 3 super heavies i dont wanna field 18 mek gunz
i dont wanna to have to pack my things by the end of round 2 just because i didnt min/max a monotone list, when going against a medicore army lead by a medicore opponent...
please for mork and gorks sake... let the snagga release be somethin good...
as i understood it the next codecies are SoB, Orks and then TS and GK my guess would be orks by the end of july
EDIT:
oh btw... i've printed some buggies... but i cant get a hold on any bases..... they're 150x92 right? anyone know where i can get some (EU)?
Haha, I can understand that feeling entirely. If you want to run Mek gunz id suggest running a buggy list with them. They are all within 1 Toughness of one another and saves are all roughly similar. The biggest thing I try to do with my lists is not give my opponent a good target for some of his weapons. Even the most competitive SM list will have some anti-horde as well as anti-vehicle weaponry, so its nice when they have to waste a plasma shot or a melta shot into a horde of boyz. The boy is still going to die mind you, but there is a bit of satisfaction in knowing that your opponent just killed your 8pt boy with a weapon that costs more than it
Blackie wrote: Bases for buggies are hard to find, I also struggled a lot to find a few with the appropriate size. I manged to get some MDF 150mm oval bases off ebay, from a spanish or french shop if I'm not mistaken.
Could' not find any 150mm bases on their site... just 120 or 170 :/
Blackie wrote: Bases for buggies are hard to find, I also struggled a lot to find a few with the appropriate size. I manged to get some MDF 150mm oval bases off ebay, from a spanish or french shop if I'm not mistaken.
yeah i think i found the same store... its about 20€ for 6 bases and two week delivery... well better than nothing i guess
maybe its GW ingenious way to counter 3d printing, make dubious individual gargantuan bases no one wants to print xD
G00fySmiley wrote: heard a rumor (nto confirmed just from a friend in the tournament scene who I know play tested for 9th so maybe a bit of credence). grots 2 for 5 points was tested but not confirmed to being used in codex. Caviat being grots can only be bought in pairs rather than per model.
I'd be down for that, or just like, buy a 30 man squad for 90 points, like new guardsman stuff
that doesnt sound very pratical... we already have swarms... snotlings would be cool though
just let gretchin advance and still do actions or give them a -1 hit naturally, or built in grot shields, you could also make them kinda immune to morale by giving runtherds appropiate rules, or let them repair vehilcles like meks... so many ways to fix gretchin... because unlike guardsman they have 0 offensive potential, balancing them shouldnt be hard
of course easiest way is to make em 4ppm but that wont happen...
More wagons with slots for Big shootas and main gun with the magnets seems to be fine. Kannonwagon is very solid option right now, normal BW with Forktress and Deffrolla is great and gunwagon with ZagZap is also not bad at all. And Battlewagon is simply iconic model. Ork equivalent of Landrider.
Nobody has any idea what will works when codex drops and most of the speculation here are just a fun way how give your fantasies some space. Go back in history of this or previous thread and you will see that most of them was always wrong. There is enough time between now to moment when we will see, what is an interesting option from the new codex to make pair of Battlewagons.
And in the long range perspective, there will be a meta with the battlewagons. Sometimes….
You're probably right with the stormboyz, though there is still a chance that GW will try to prevent such strategies.
The battlewagon has great potential, as its main problem right now is that there are few units worth transporting. However, flash gits, burnas, beast snagga boyz, nobz or even lootas all might turn into units that you might want to bring again, and at that point a second wagon would be a great asset to your walker list.
Kanz I honestly don't see becoming great. They have a fundamental problem of being a tanky shooting unit with too little dakka that pays a ton of points for melee ability. They can be saved, but I don't think any unit in other 9th edition codices has received in a magnitude that would be necessary to fix them. If you imply malice, anyone who started orks a few editions ago is probably swimming in kanz(top choice in 5th, part of many boxes), so there is little business incentive to make them great again.
Warbikers really are a coinflip. Either they become a decent board control element or they will remain a fast overpriced unit that does nothing well besides moving fast.
Those are really good points about the wagons. I absolutely love playing transport heavy lists as well. Barreling across the board with open-topped vehicles filled with inaccurate dakka just feels so orky.
Yeah, hopefully they give some of the ork transports a little more love this time around. It's been ages since I've been able to effectively try out a battlewagon brigade. Tweak the points a little, make gunwagons BS4+ base (I'd prefer if they just upgunned the killkannon tbh over the periscope rule), make wrecking balls and grabbing klaws actually useful as weapons, and boarding planks should honestly just let occupants inside do a single attack each to enemies in base contact with the battlewagon/trukk.
I could see the reinforced ram coming back to do what the spiked ram does for the big trakk atm, where on a 4+ you deal D3 mortal wounds to an enemy unit within 1" of the trukk after a successful charge.
i wouldnt expect the points in CA to change anything, our codex is inbound.
All that would possibly change is something hilariously overpowered. Which is nothing for orks.
yeah the only question regarding them is did they at least have the forethought to "omit" them from the book to avoid the annoyance of "well in the CA they cost X and we know that the CA was supposed to come after this codex even though it didnt end up happening that way sooooo...."
people buy MFM because of the missions and secondaries. The second book with the points is a useless crap. I don't understand, why they print it on the paper. It is 21st century….
It feels like GW are constantly messing the most simple things up. They post an article that Investigate Sites, now Investigate Signals is fixed so that it can start with no enemy units in the center of the battlefield. Lo and behold, the new wording has the exact same issue that the action can't be started unless the center is clear of enemy units.
BDBurrow wrote: Retrieve Octarius Data is money. 3x kommandos in every list.
Yeah... One unit does it on turn one in your quarter and then drop a unit each turn for every other quarter... Could manage do it with 2 kommando mobs thought... Provided you can do it in your zone twice
Btw ... Wtf is wrong with the deploy teleport homer text?? WHOLLY WITHIN 12" OF YOUR OPPONENTS DEPLOEMT ZONE.
did I mention you need to be 12" in your OP Zone?
Because it's really important that you are wholly within 12" of OP's zone, since otherwise you cannot perform the action.
U can only do it IF YOU ARE 12" IN. WHOLLY WITHIN.
...Well, feth it you can also score less points if you are not.
GW at its finest
So the Data secondary could be completed second turn right? 2 units of grots in your table side do it first turn then 2 units of kommandoz do it when they can deep strike the following turn. Can't seem to find anything about it being a once per turn sort of thing.
cody.d. wrote: So the Data secondary could be completed second turn right? 2 units of grots in your table side do it first turn then 2 units of kommandoz do it when they can deep strike the following turn. Can't seem to find anything about it being a once per turn sort of thing.
“One infantry unit can start to perform this action…”
Automatically Appended Next Post: What is interesting is, that new “Scramblers” works on table quaters like Engage. So the synergy with Engage is much more obvious.
New “Domination” requires to hold 3 objectives and more than opponent, which makes it easier to pass on 6Obj missions.
Some changes, but more or less the same story, isn' t it?
Automatically Appended Next Post: And Deploy Teleport Homers can be done by BIKER unit…. Interesting….
think the AP-1 on choppa's is actually a bigger talking point than the T5.
You will still be picking up handfuls of orks with a dustpan and brush every turn at T5.
I'm just hoping that if we get a points increase on boys it's only a single point which I think would be reasonable for the extra point of toughness and finally some AP.
Pickled_egg wrote: think the AP-1 on choppa's is actually a bigger talking point than the T5.
You will still be picking up handfuls of orks with a dustpan and brush every turn at T5.
I'm just hoping that if we get a points increase on boys it's only a single point which I think would be reasonable for the extra point of toughness and finally some AP.
My guess is
T5 --> +1 point
AP -1 choppa --> +1 point
for a total of 10 point boyz. This leaves some room for snaggas to be better at some tasks without being OP.
I like the though but bad armor approach they take with orks.
Hmmm, on one side it seems I gonna lost my teeth because codex obviously comes in June - not in Orktober. On other hand, codex comes in June. So it' s a win situation anyway
Point cost and maximum size of the snaga squads will be a very interesting topic!
Tomsug wrote: Hmmm, on one side it seems I gonna lost my teeth because codex obviously comes in June - not in Orktober. On other hand, codex comes in June. So it' s a win situation anyway
Point cost and maximum size of the snaga squads will be a very interesting topic!
I wouldn't count on it, they've confirmed the AoS Dominion set will be coming out in June, so I anticipate the schedule is like this: Sisters (landing mid June) > Dominion > AoS3.0 releases (end of June) > Orks. Probably looking at July. Still earlier than I anticipated.
Ho boy though, T5 Orks, the T7 Warboss on Warbike is making more sense now. And of course ap on choppas is great news, though it was probably the bare minimum needed to keep boyz from falling behind the durability creep.
Pickled_egg wrote: think the AP-1 on choppa's is actually a bigger talking point than the T5.
You will still be picking up handfuls of orks with a dustpan and brush every turn at T5.
I'm just hoping that if we get a points increase on boys it's only a single point which I think would be reasonable for the extra point of toughness and finally some AP.
My guess is
T5 --> +1 point
AP -1 choppa --> +1 point
for a total of 10 point boyz. This leaves some room for snaggas to be better at some tasks without being OP.
I like the though but bad armor approach they take with orks.
I think they stay at 8 ppm based off of recent codexes. Ad mech rangers and vanguard improved considerably and went from 9 to 8 pts. I think it's entirely possible boyz still go down to 7 pts.
Pickled_egg wrote: think the AP-1 on choppa's is actually a bigger talking point than the T5.
You will still be picking up handfuls of orks with a dustpan and brush every turn at T5.
I'm just hoping that if we get a points increase on boys it's only a single point which I think would be reasonable for the extra point of toughness and finally some AP.
If boyz go up in price at all it will be basically a minor durability boost at best.
10 boyz ATM are 80pts, at T4 6+ save they take 24 S4 hits to kill. 24 hits, 12 wounds, 10 dmg, 10 dead Orkz.
9 Boyz at 9ppm are 81pts, at T5 6+ save they take 31.5 hits to kill. 32.5ish hits, 10.83wounds, 9dmg, 9 dead orkz. So they get 1/3rd tougher to kill pt for pt. I'm also worried about the -1AP since GW seems to like handing out abilities which ignore the 1st AP of a weapon right now. That White Scars list I mentioned in the past had like half his army with storm shields which basically ignore the 1st AP.
Tomsug wrote: Aaaand some CA point costs. I don' t see any changes yet…
I think they stay at 8 ppm based off of recent codexes. Ad mech rangers and vanguard improved considerably and went from 9 to 8 pts. I think it's entirely possible boyz still go down to 7 pts.
If boyz go back down to 7ppm I'll be ecstatic, that math brings them up to 11.4 models at 80pts and means the opponent needs about 41 S4 hits to kill them all. That would actually make them scary, still not as good durability wise as they were against Space Marine tacs back in like 4th but i'll gladly take it.
I think they stay at 8 ppm based off of recent codexes. Ad mech rangers and vanguard improved considerably and went from 9 to 8 pts. I think it's entirely possible boyz still go down to 7 pts.
If boyz go back down to 7ppm I'll be ecstatic, that math brings them up to 11.4 models at 80pts and means the opponent needs about 41 S4 hits to kill them all. That would actually make them scary, still not as good durability wise as they were against Space Marine tacs back in like 4th but i'll gladly take it.
I'm not sure 7 points would be healthy for the game as is. I don't want orks to be the next boogeyman.
I think they stay at 8 ppm based off of recent codexes. Ad mech rangers and vanguard improved considerably and went from 9 to 8 pts. I think it's entirely possible boyz still go down to 7 pts.
If boyz go back down to 7ppm I'll be ecstatic, that math brings them up to 11.4 models at 80pts and means the opponent needs about 41 S4 hits to kill them all. That would actually make them scary, still not as good durability wise as they were against Space Marine tacs back in like 4th but i'll gladly take it.
I'm not sure 7 points would be healthy for the game as is. I don't want orks to be the next boogeyman.
Also there is beast snaggas to be sold...
Factor in the dmg buffs other factions have been given of late, factor in GW just releasing a new troop choice for Marines which gets S5 weapons with -1AP as the norm, factor in the loss of CC ability from the new CC rules as well as Stormshields and other abilities ignoring -1AP, 7ppm orkz is in my opinion HIGHLY unlikely, but it wouldn't break the game. At most it would force the meta to shift away from bringing -2+ AP and 2D weapons as the norm to bringing more anti-horde weaponry which isn't considered as competitive right now, not because it isn't good, but because it doesn't kill 3+ save Marines as fast as their current weapons load outs.
Yeah, the toughness boost makes a BIG difference for a lot of Ork units across the board. T6 base foot warbosses, T5 Nobz/Meganobz, as well as T6 Bikerz/Biker Nobz helps deal with a lot of the mid strength weaponry being used atm. T3 grots means they finally won't be wounded on 2's by like half the infantry weapons in the game. Wonder if they're going to boost some of the Walkers similarly, since that would help give them more toughness without copying the -1D for loyalist dreads, though hopefully that comes with Ramshackle as a standard across all Ork vehicles.
Eldenfirefly wrote: lol wow, Orcs are now tougher, and stronger than space marines! I sense some impending space marine saltiness incoming...
Again, it really depends on what the price point is. Just remember, in 4th a Marine was 15pts and an Ork boy was 6. The Ork was AS tough as the Marine (T4) and on the charge was also S4, The biggest difference was that the Marine had a 3+ save and his bolter had AP5 which went through orkz 6+ armor. Orkz were 2.5x cheaper than Marines and Marines were 3x more durable vs S4 hits than Orkz were. (2 bolter hits to kill an Ork, 6 to kill a Marine)
Atm Orkz are 8 and Tacs are 18. The Ork takes 1.16 S4 wounds to kill, the Marine takes 6. So the Marine is now 5x more durable but the price point is now orkz are 2.25x cheaper. A lot has changed since those old rules but in game those Marines have become significantly more deadly as well as more durable, the orkz have become a lot more deadly (base S4, DDD, etc) but haven't become more durable. I'm really hoping for 8ppm Boyz, i'd LOVE 7ppm boyz, but I expect 9ppm and DREAD 10ppm boyz.
I think if GW can raise first born marines to 2W without substantially increasing their points, then they can raise orcs to T5 without increasing their points either.
I am loving their new AP 1 choppas too. This is going to make a massive difference.
Given that GW wants to push new models. I am guessing the difference between Snagga Boyz and normal Boyz will be like the difference between Primatis and first born marines.
You can still play normal Boyz for sure but if you want to be "competitive", you will take Snagga Boyz. Just my opinion.
I think T5 is really stupid -- an innate FNP would make more sense and like a boy is as bulky as a Custode? But whatever it's hopefully a free buff.
That point differential for snaggas is gonna realllly matter here. If it's like 2 ppm similar from tac to intercessor, good bye boys.
+1 str, 6++, and +1 to hit with your str 5 choppas against gak the unit is weak against? SIGN ME UP.
I'm actually against the FNP compared to the T5, T5 makes it so most anti-infantry weapons don't wound us on 4's or 3's, versus the FNP which can be cancelled out by the amount of multi-damage weapons currently out and about. I can also see the reasoning that FNP slows down the game with rolls, so I'm fine with the toughness bump.
Eldenfirefly wrote: I think if GW can raise first born marines to 2W without substantially increasing their points, then they can raise orcs to T5 without increasing their points either.
I am loving their new AP 1 choppas too. This is going to make a massive difference.
Given that GW wants to push new models. I am guessing the difference between Snagga Boyz and normal Boyz will be like the difference between Primatis and first born marines.
You can still play normal Boyz for sure but if you want to be "competitive", you will take Snagga Boyz. Just my opinion.
Marines went from 15pts in 4th to 18pts in 9th. They gained 2x durability, doctrines, +1 attack in 1st round of combat, Bolter discipline and a few other changes.
Orkz went from 6pts in 4th to 8ps in 9th (ATM). If we gain T5 without a price increase we will have gained +1 S and +1T and DDD. The +1 Strength only matters AFTER the charge . I think we've already paid for these buffs, I just hope GW agrees.
I think T5 is really stupid -- an innate FNP would make more sense and like a boy is as bulky as a Custode? But whatever it's hopefully a free buff.
If only GW had other stats to fiddle with to represent different level of resilience. We could have a stat to represent the armor and gives multiple healh points to a model for example, instead of simply having Thoughness.
I think T5 is really stupid -- an innate FNP would make more sense and like a boy is as bulky as a Custode? But whatever it's hopefully a free buff.
That point differential for snaggas is gonna realllly matter here. If it's like 2 ppm similar from tac to intercessor, good bye boys.
+1 str, 6++, and +1 to hit with your str 5 choppas against gak the unit is weak against? SIGN ME UP.
I'm actually against the FNP compared to the T5, T5 makes it so most anti-infantry weapons don't wound us on 4's or 3's, versus the FNP which can be cancelled out by the amount of multi-damage weapons currently out and about. I can also see the reasoning that FNP slows down the game with rolls, so I'm fine with the toughness bump.
Agree entirely. The FNP is almost completely ignored by the meta which is currently D2. So a 6+ FNP equates to a 8.3 chance to survive against D2 weapons. The T5 at least lowers our chances to be wounded by most weaponry by a significant amount. S4 weaponry just became 33% less effective, S5-7 just became 25% less effective.
It's more so a tiny boy is as bulky as a Custode or a SM in massive armour. It just feels a bit off. I imagine Custodes will likely be going to T6 or something.
I'd almost rather the boy be t4 and snagga be t5, as they seem much bigger.
And no, 2 wound boys would probably be broken if they were cheap, as they should be. We're a horde army.
All this boy and snagga boys is fine and dandy, but what im worried about is the difference between a snagga boy and a Nob.
I fear that the Nobz will really struggle (as they even are right now) to find a spot between boys and Mega Nobz. Or in this case, between snagga boyz and Mega Nobz.
I doubt that Nobz get Toughness 6, so both will have T5, and they arent really that much tougher than snagga boys, with Nobz having a save value of 4, where as snagga boys have a save value of 6 and an invul save. Nobz have 1 more wound though, but often id say you pick Orks for offense, not for defence. so Im guessing Nobz will probably struggle still in this edition.
I hope they get strength 6 then or something as Nobz are meant to be stronger than Boys. That would make them interesting.
Eldenfirefly wrote: 40k has three different kind of stats to represent resilience.
1. Armor save, invul saves.
2. Toughness
3. HP.
I think that's quite enough already.
psst...i think that was the joke
T5 for boyz wont matter that much, if it translates to other units gaining toughnes, and that is a BIG IF, yeah that would be absolutley great!
a shame that snaggaz didnt get a third attack though... the only difference between them and regular boyz is just +1S and the +1 to hit against bigger stuff.
7point orks would be bad for the metagame me thinks... but i dont care... i just wanna fill my trukks with snaggaz
Oh, it was a joke? lol Sorry, it wasn't really very obvious from just the writing.
In any case, I think these new upcoming changes sound great! I always saw orcs as a melee centric army first and shooting second, but 8th edition seem to have turned orcs into a janky sort of shooting army with just the orcs with the killa claws or the warboss doing the mega melee damage, while the rest of the orcs were just there as bodies. These changes will hopefully bring the melee back into orcs again!
Eldenfirefly wrote: 40k has three different kind of stats to represent resilience.
1. Armor save, invul saves.
2. Toughness
3. HP.
I think that's quite enough already.
psst...i think that was the joke
T5 for boyz wont matter that much, if it translates to other units gaining toughnes, and that is a BIG IF, yeah that would be absolutley great!
a shame that snaggaz didnt get a third attack though... the only difference between them and regular boyz is just +1S and the +1 to hit against bigger stuff.
7point orks would be bad for the metagame me thinks... but i dont care... i just wanna fill my trukks with snaggaz
i curious about cultures now.
Yeah I'm with you. I think a mechanized, Snagga bound force will be strong *and* fun to play.
Big Mek Sparknutz wrote: It feels like GW are constantly messing the most simple things up. They post an article that Investigate Sites, now Investigate Signals is fixed so that it can start with no enemy units in the center of the battlefield. Lo and behold, the new wording has the exact same issue that the action can't be started unless the center is clear of enemy units.
The enemy unit has to be wholly within 6" of the centre to prevent you starting the action, which is actually a big change, they can't just toe into 6" with one model and lock you down.
Since the FW Warboss on Warbike is T7 and bikes almost always give +1 to Toughness, I expect the following :
Warboss : S6 T6
Nobz : S5 T5 2W (maybe 3)
I do not expect Nobz to be S6 simply because Warbosses are probably going to be S6 (based on the FW datasheet). Perhaps they will get an extra Wound though.
An additional wound for nobz would be nice. But still, the ap on the choppa is really good news for them. Really hope my Deafskulls Nobz squads are still as viable add they are now with the new codex.
Singleton Mosby wrote: An additional wound for nobz would be nice. But still, the ap on the choppa is really good news for them. Really hope my Deafskulls Nobz squads are still as viable add they are now with the new codex.
If Nobz maintain price they could be pretty good, S5 T5 4+ and 5 ap-1 attacks for 17 points doesn't sound that bad.
Singleton Mosby wrote: An additional wound for nobz would be nice. But still, the ap on the choppa is really good news for them. Really hope my Deafskulls Nobz squads are still as viable add they are now with the new codex.
If Nobz maintain price they could be pretty good, S5 T5 4+ and 5 ap-1 attacks for 17 points doesn't sound that bad.
Bigchoppas remaining ap1 is weird.
I almost dont see a reason to take them over Choppas now, because S7 AP1 2D isnt really all that better against infantry than S5 AP1 with an extra swing instead of 2D.
Especially since now theres 'Uge Choppas, which are AP3. Would have fit nicely to have bigchoppas AP2.
Beardedragon wrote: we'll have to see how they balance out the Nobz between snagga boys and Mega Nobs.
Hopefully they wont get stuck inbetween and be useless again this edition
Nobz aren't useless at all at the moment. Take a Deafskulls squad of 2 PK or saws, 2x rokkit and fill out with dual choppa nobz. Add an ammo runt and put them in a transport. Some 250 points of general usefulness whatever is coming your way.
Beardedragon wrote: we'll have to see how they balance out the Nobz between snagga boys and Mega Nobs.
Hopefully they wont get stuck inbetween and be useless again this edition
Nobz aren't useless at all at the moment. Take a Deafskulls squad of 2 PK or saws, 2x rokkit and fill out with dual choppa nobz. Add an ammo runt and put them in a transport. Some 250 points of general usefulness whatever is coming your way.
for two 250 points i could have 29 boys and 1 nob with a killsaw.
If i wanted dedicated anti tanking id just go for Mega Nobz i feel. I dont feel like going for a bit of power klaw, bit of rokkits, bit of choppas makes Nobz or any ork unit good. The best way ive found for ork units is going dedicated one thing only. Dedicated anti infantry, dedicated anti tanking. dedicated something. by splitting your one unit you become good at nothing, but somewhat at everything. Maybe it works out, but it doesnt.. sound good in my opinion.
Only real way i see going Nobz atm is Double choppas (made redundant if you go skarboys) or Big Choppas. My fear is that double choppas Nobz will still be redundant because of Beast SNagga boys.
And as i speculated some many pages ago, big choppas dont change. I made the speculation based on the Mek Boss Buzzgob keeping his old profile for his big choppa in the forge world updated book, and guess no change was indeed made. Big Choppas are... decent. But its too easy to gain nothing from a -1 AP.
its also a weird profile. +2 strength and 2 damage.. but -1 AP? weird profile i say. It makes a lot more sense to get -2AP from Big Choppas.
Vineheart01 wrote: Bigchoppas remaining ap1 is weird.
I almost dont see a reason to take them over Choppas now, because S7 AP1 2D isnt really all that better against infantry than S5 AP1 with an extra swing instead of 2D.
Especially since now theres 'Uge Choppas, which are AP3. Would have fit nicely to have bigchoppas AP2.
Said exactly that several times today in many discussions
Chances are ardboyz will be back to per model point upgrade rather than a strat, but with T5 base, if they buff it back up to a 4+ save, I could see Ard boyz being a real pain in the butt to remove off the table.
Chances are ardboyz will be back to per model point upgrade rather than a strat, but with T5 base, if they buff it back up to a 4+ save, I could see Ard boyz being a real pain in the butt to remove off the table.
Oh right it increased the save value not the toughness value. I forgot
Chances are ardboyz will be back to per model point upgrade rather than a strat, but with T5 base, if they buff it back up to a 4+ save, I could see Ard boyz being a real pain in the butt to remove off the table.
Eh. That pushes them into the niche where they're perfect targets for anti-marine weapons that people are bringing anyway. As a bonus, they don't even need to overcharge the plasma.
kingbbobb wrote: i know all the talk is on what we do know, T5 boyz etc.
i am more interested in what we don't know.
i hope they add new or rework some of the spells and relics, some options are just plain bad.
GITSTOPPA SHELLS is just so pointless as an option.....
Definitely. Our relics and spells sorely need a do-over, since barring Warpath and Da Jump, our other psychic spells may as well not exist, barring the Klan specific ones.
Ideally, this means the big choppa relic might become relevant again given the new 'Uge Choppa profile. I'd love for something besides the Killa Klaw to be an option. It'd be a great time for them to bring back the Mega Kustom Force Field and some other old classics to help spice up our HQ roster when it comes to gear.
Honestly you're probably always going to have a few duds in the relic department. And I'd be fairly happy with a meh spread of relics as long as they keep or even buff the Kustom jobs. Upon saying that, if both are competitive then i'll be a happy ork.
cody.d. wrote: Honestly you're probably always going to have a few duds in the relic department. And I'd be fairly happy with a meh spread of relics as long as they keep or even buff the Kustom jobs. Upon saying that, if both are competitive then i'll be a happy ork.
Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not expecting all of them to be A+++ tier competitive, just making it so they can actually do something useful and not feeling like you're paying CP for effectively a tiny increase in damage output you'll almost never see impact the game meaningfully when you take it.
To be fair this all feels weird with boys at T5. I mean, i always envisioned that Nobz and Mega Nobz should have higher toughness than boys, and thats probably not going to happen now (Toughness 6 Nobz and mega Nobz? really doubt it).
Dont get me wrong, i love having T5 Boys, but it always felt odd they had the same Toughness as Nobz and mega variants.
cody.d. wrote: So the Data secondary could be completed second turn right? 2 units of grots in your table side do it first turn then 2 units of kommandoz do it when they can deep strike the following turn. Can't seem to find anything about it being a once per turn sort of thing.
Does the secondary give you special permission to do action by more than 1 unit? Default is 1 action per turn. Raise banner specifically allows multiple units to do it. That's why scramblers have taken 3 turns before to do minimum which made it bit riskier than if you could do it in one turn.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
tulun wrote: It's more so a tiny boy is as bulky as a Custode or a SM in massive armour. It just feels a bit off. I imagine Custodes will likely be going to T6 or something.
I'd almost rather the boy be t4 and snagga be t5, as they seem much bigger.
And no, 2 wound boys would probably be broken if they were cheap, as they should be. We're a horde army.
Bulk aka size is what GW uses to determine W characteristic.
Remind me. Didn't custodians have 3x wounds than ork boy?
cody.d. wrote: Honestly you're probably always going to have a few duds in the relic department. And I'd be fairly happy with a meh spread of relics as long as they keep or even buff the Kustom jobs. Upon saying that, if both are competitive then i'll be a happy ork.
Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not expecting all of them to be A+++ tier competitive, just making it so they can actually do something useful and not feeling like you're paying CP for effectively a tiny increase in damage output you'll almost never see impact the game meaningfully when you take it.
That raises a fair question then. For your teef what type of relics/warlord traits do you prefer mate? The ones that give a damage upgrade to a weapon, some sort of special rule for the model or their attacks, or even the ones that give an aura of some variety? I reckon ork fluff could justify any of them. Hell we had a bouncing relic in the 8th ed book.
i just want the relics from the ghaz supplement in 7th. Mega forcefield, 4++ for models in 6 inches. the killdakka, a gun with like ten different profiles you rolled to pick. and also that one choppa that got better the more you killed with it.
I'm shocked that the Gretchin Revolutionary Front fans haven't been raving over the news that gretchin are gaining +1 Toughness Of course, whether that actually makes them useful depends on points and other rules...
Clang wrote: I'm shocked that the Gretchin Revolutionary Front fans haven't been raving over the news that gretchin are gaining +1 Toughness Of course, whether that actually makes them useful depends on points and other rules...
I don't like it. t2 was one of the few things seperating grots from cultists really, it was part of their unique identity as a unit, terrible, but cheap. now they're just gonna be knockoff guardsmen .
RedNoak wrote: I doubt the only change for Gretchin will be T3 But time and GW weirdness will tell.
Am I the only one believing the new uge choppa will be only available for the mega armoured warboss?
The +1 to hit against monsters and vehicles will be interesting for the squigriders... Don't they have some kind of rocket propelled spear?
I believe they do. At first i was sad because maybe 1+ to wound made more sense, as you already hit on a 3 for beast snagga boys, but then i thought, as you did, that there are probably ranged weapons like the rockets that hits like crap on BS5, but now they hit on 4s which make them decent. Then again, +1 to wound would maybe put them in a category of over performing.
So yea im happy about the +1 to hit, especially considering rocket spears and all
T5 Boyz will likely also mean T6 Warbikers!
If they also get the improved save strat integrated into their profile, they will become a lot more resilent. Maybe they will get a new role as a fast, chaff clearing unit, to go around and capture backfield objectives. If we get something to make Warbikers get Objective Secured (Perhaps Evil Sunz clan trait?) then they will definitely fit that role!
Bonde wrote: T5 Boyz will likely also mean T6 Warbikers!
If they also get the improved save strat integrated into their profile, they will become a lot more resilent. Maybe they will get a new role as a fast, chaff clearing unit, to go around and capture backfield objectives. If we get something to make Warbikers get Objective Secured (Perhaps Evil Sunz clan trait?) then they will definitely fit that role!
Happy with the new reveals for us. I played my 2k gift horde with 90 boyz and ghaz last week into a death guard army and had almost been tabled by turn 2. I was dying in droves even with KFF and painboy etc. When I actually got into combat with plague marines or terminators all my attacks would just bounce off their crazy save and toughness. Now with ap-1 and the beast snaggas being ST5 I would have definitely been making my way through units.
T5 boyz means that koptas and bikes should be T6. Trukks won't be buffed to T7, which is a value related to proper tanks, including the Battlewagon.
Nobz, Flash Gitz and meganobz at T5 and multiwounds will benefit a lot.
Also min squads of kommandos and stormboyz could be great if they remain cheap.
With AP-1 and T5 boyz finally seem to be fine at 8ppm, but I think even 9ppm could be acceptable. That was their points cost in 3rd edition actually, when they did have an equivalent of an AP modifier against armored units (choppas allowed 4+ as highest save, an actual AP-2 against TEQs), and they were great despite their S3 and T4.
Chances are ardboyz will be back to per model point upgrade rather than a strat, but with T5 base, if they buff it back up to a 4+ save, I could see Ard boyz being a real pain in the butt to remove off the table.
Eh. That pushes them into the niche where they're perfect targets for anti-marine weapons that people are bringing anyway. As a bonus, they don't even need to overcharge the plasma.
A marine with a plasma gun is at least 28-30 points, killing 10 point 'ard boyz still isn't too good for them.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tomsug wrote: I really really hope, this doesn't mean a transition of the orks from mass of cheap models to some elite hummie army. I love my hordes!
I think T5 is the prefect change to prevent that. You'll still have your horde with a few less model and, it will just die slightly slower to stuff good at killing hordes.
It's also likely that other things in the codex get cheaper, so an army that wasn't just smashas+boyz might end up costing less than it does now.
And in the end, this is what all of us wanted - shifting the pendulum away from a decade of playing green tide.
Tomsug wrote: I really really hope, this doesn't mean a transition of the orks from mass of cheap models to some elite hummie army. I love my hordes!
I hope so too. I think the biggest potential is actually in the rules for mobs, waahg and unstopable green tide and not so much in the points.
Its seems GW wants to move away from just flooding the board and honestly I had not much fun with shoving around too many models as of lately. Mostly because they just died and did next to no damage.
Choppas with AP-1 means that boyz can actually kill something again. Additionally I'm looking forward to being wounded on 5s only by marines. I suspect this however to come at a cost. But not all is lost if i.e. they let me have some rules for adding additional ork boyz to my mobs during the game (like reanimation protocols but in a more orky way)
I even look forward to write mixed lists for orks now (mind you I already did, but they would typically not perform well).
Tomsug wrote: I really really hope, this doesn't mean a transition of the orks from mass of cheap models to some elite hummie army. I love my hordes!
I love armies with 80-120 models, including specialists, characters and vehicles and I consider such armies horde oriented. Elite hummie armies have 40ish models, some are ok even with 25-30.
I think this is all great news. Maybe i’m being naive, but i’ll give GW the benefit of the doubt and assume that they are making changes that will make orks competitive with the likes of DG, DA, and ad mech. Not drukhari because that’s just ridiculous.
The extra toughness across the board is very welcome indeed and makes sense thematically to me. Orks keep fighting unless their head is chopped off. I was hoping grots would go back to 3 pts, but maybe they can make them worth the 5.
I am most interested to see if we get command protocols style upgrades and how they change up the kulturs.
Vast majority of guns hitting horde units are S4 with a few being S5. At worst, you deny wounding on 3s which is a lot less wounds.
All i gotta say though is that they better not make boyz 10pts over this. As whats been stated several times, theyre not good right now theyre just anti-meta. The moment you have a list that isnt hypertailored to kill marines boyz dont do jack. At 8ppm with these buffs they'd be a threat but not a gamekiller threat unless people are still dumb enough to not take ANY antihorde weapons in their lists in the future.
What is great is that tougness 3 models like drukari (not all, a lot are toughness 4) will fold to bolter shots (so there is a reason to take some) but orks will endure a bit / a lot more (depending on +1 to wound strats and reroll strats but still a lot more) so there are incentives here for many different weapons.
TS with 2 wounds, and with their resistance to damage 1 weapons, will further push for diversity.
Things are looking rather good on that front, I think it is a healthy approach to the game to have a tougness 5 horde army. But will we be a horde army if boyz go up to 9 ppm ? Hmmm. I think we will lose green tide strat but stay at 8 ppm
I can totally see green tide getting the axe. It's needed now, but it's insanely powerful. Being able to use it often marks the difference between winning an losing.
As I mentioned before did Black Cornucopia go for DE, so I wouldn´t expect it to stay. Resetting big units is hard to balance in an objective game. Just don´t.
Yeah, I really like GT. Maybe they'll include it, but to a lesser degree, like summoning the unit back at half strength or something.
Really looking forward to spamming 90-120 boyz at t5 though, even if they're 10 ppm. I haven't seen many armies that will be able to deal with a list like that.
On an unrelated note, do the Drukhari have any poison weapons? I don't have anyone in my meta who plays them? They might be able to deal with massed t5 pretty easy if they always wound on 4+.
I just like UGT because it just stops people from chipping 11 boyz each of your mobs to deny the +1 attack bonus. It's also sweet for making 500 point games like 600-700 point games .
Kaptin_Grubkrumpa wrote: Yeah, I really like GT. Maybe they'll include it, but to a lesser degree, like summoning the unit back at half strength or something.
Really looking forward to spamming 90-120 boyz at t5 though, even if they're 10 ppm. I haven't seen many armies that will be able to deal with a list like that.
On an unrelated note, do the Drukhari have any poison weapons? I don't have anyone in my meta who plays them? They might be able to deal with massed t5 pretty easy if they always wound on 4+.
addnid wrote: What is great is that tougness 3 models like drukari (not all, a lot are toughness 4) will fold to bolter shots (so there is a reason to take some) but orks will endure a bit / a lot more (depending on +1 to wound strats and reroll strats but still a lot more) so there are incentives here for many different weapons.
TS with 2 wounds, and with their resistance to damage 1 weapons, will further push for diversity.
Things are looking rather good on that front, I think it is a healthy approach to the game to have a tougness 5 horde army. But will we be a horde army if boyz go up to 9 ppm ? Hmmm. I think we will lose green tide strat but stay at 8 ppm
As I noted in the N&R thread, I really think that what's interesting is that S3 loses no efficiency against T5, meaning boyz will take the same damage from lasguns and other equivalent weapons as their boltgun counterpart.
In other words, boyz would lose considerable efficiency against S3 weapons if they go up in points. A mere 2 point increase is after all a 25% increase in points per model. Meaning lasguns as well as poison would be 25% more efficient.
Also, despite people completely forgetting that the blast rule exists, it still does in fact exist.
addnid wrote: What is great is that tougness 3 models like drukari (not all, a lot are toughness 4) will fold to bolter shots (so there is a reason to take some) but orks will endure a bit / a lot more (depending on +1 to wound strats and reroll strats but still a lot more) so there are incentives here for many different weapons.
TS with 2 wounds, and with their resistance to damage 1 weapons, will further push for diversity.
Things are looking rather good on that front, I think it is a healthy approach to the game to have a tougness 5 horde army. But will we be a horde army if boyz go up to 9 ppm ? Hmmm. I think we will lose green tide strat but stay at 8 ppm
As I noted in the N&R thread, I really think that what's interesting is that S3 loses no efficiency against T5, meaning boyz will take the same damage from lasguns and other equivalent weapons as their boltgun counterpart.
In other words, boyz would lose considerable efficiency against S3 weapons if they go up in points. A mere 2 point increase is after all a 25% increase in points per model. Meaning lasguns as well as poison would be 25% more efficient.
Also, despite people completely forgetting that the blast rule exists, it still does in fact exist.
yeah i don't think there will be a points change, i think the points change happened already, which explains the crazy gretchin points increase, i think Killa Kans will get a toughness boost aswell, i mean kans have a T5 now, the toughness of a boy, there is no way that can stay the same.
what might happen is "Green Tide: Add 1 to the Attacks characteristic of models in this unit while it contains 20 or more models." ability could be axed.
I see us keeping that bonus, doesn't make sense why we'd lose it. I just want to see if meganobz get t6 or something, or if they're kept at boy toughness. I'd think nobz are tougher than boyz but who knows.
you mean the +1 attack rule that almost never goes off because if a full squad of 30 actually sees melee your opponent is an idiot or just ignored them for some reason?
i dont think ive ever, EVER gotten +1 attack from 20+ models in boy squads.
Vineheart01 wrote: you mean the +1 attack rule that almost never goes off because if a full squad of 30 actually sees melee your opponent is an idiot or just ignored them for some reason?
i dont think ive ever, EVER gotten +1 attack from 20+ models in boy squads.
What? I’ve never NOT gotten +1 attack from 20+ boyz in a game in which i’m playing 90+ boyz.
Grots could be worth 5 points if you got 2 grots for 5 points. obviously one grot isnt 5 points then, but since 5 points is the lowest count, i guess thats one way to do it.
Beardedragon wrote: Grots could be worth 5 points if you got 2 grots for 5 points. obviously one grot isnt 5 points then, but since 5 points is the lowest count, i guess thats one way to do it.
Grots become toughness 3, war hammer community was quite clear on that. So 5 points, as other toughness 3 troops.
I can see myself playing 60 grots just to camp objectives, but they might get other uses who knows. Sadly I don’t think they will get the option to get a ball and chain strapped to them, then get sent by other grots whirling into the foe, high on shrooms. That ship has sailed :(
grots still need more than that. The other 5pt troops still have a longer ranged weapon. Grots being T3 basically changes nothing. Yeah bolters dont wound them on 2s now...so? still shreds right through them at such a high rate they wont have enough left to do anything. Also Grots (currently) are given specific rules to deny rules, other 5pt troopers are not (or only denied a specific one)
Vineheart01 wrote: grots still need more than that. The other 5pt troops still have a longer ranged weapon.
Grots being T3 basically changes nothing. Yeah bolters dont wound them on 2s now...so? still shreds right through them at such a high rate they wont have enough left to do anything.
Also Grots (currently) are given specific rules to deny rules, other 5pt troopers are not (or only denied a specific one)
Agreed. T3 is a good start, but they still need more utility to make them worth taking now that boyz are also comparatively much stronger, even as a 10 man squad.
Vineheart01 wrote: you mean the +1 attack rule that almost never goes off because if a full squad of 30 actually sees melee your opponent is an idiot or just ignored them for some reason?
i dont think ive ever, EVER gotten +1 attack from 20+ models in boy squads.
come on man, you can get off a turn 1 charge with da jump, i only bring 1 squad of 20 and either da jump or teleport, but most times i stick to squads of 10.
you can also use mob up strat to increase the size back to 20+.
but i never use that to be honest
the reason i think the +1 attack could be dropped is because its overkill and there are better was to increase boyz attacks, and the way combat range has shrunk means you struggle to get all the boyz into combat if there is 20+
Clang wrote: I'm shocked that the Gretchin Revolutionary Front fans haven't been raving over the news that gretchin are gaining +1 Toughness Of course, whether that actually makes them useful depends on points and other rules...
Wouldn't that just be the biggest slap in the face, they "buff" grots to T3 and go "oh, they need a price hike" and make them 6ppm
Here is a video from a very good DG tactics channel analyzing the effects of T5 orks on death guard weaponry. I'm honestly surprised about how much of a difference it makes.
Feel free to just jump to the numbers and ignore all the complaining about how orks are now as tough as DG
gungo wrote: Grots just need grot shield added to thier data sheet as an ability.
Along with 3toughness... they would have a place.
It’s a shame zodgrod ability super runt ability kinda sucks.
This.
Then they'd be worth 5 points.
Also zodgrod should have given his grots the sniper ability. I mean they would still suck but at least we would have the option for a bunch of weak str 3, 12in range snipers.
Also the fact beast snagga have a built in 6+ invul kinda makes deathskulls clan a little less appealing but we will see how everything ends up.
Final thought I hope they don’t get rid of green tide strat I truly think it’s one of the main reasons ork boy spam is viable.
I'd like to field lists with a bit of everything to be honest, like drukhari ones. A fair number of infantries, including specialists, and some vehicles. I'd also love to field bikes again. With everything T5-8 I'm quite optimistic about that.
yeah i don't think there will be a points change, i think the points change happened already, which explains the crazy gretchin points increase, i think Killa Kans will get a toughness boost aswell, i mean kans have a T5 now, the toughness of a boy, there is no way that can stay the same.
what might happen is "Green Tide: Add 1 to the Attacks characteristic of models in this unit while it contains 20 or more models." ability could be axed.
Gretchin point increase happened in 9e.
No other codex had point costs of units based on future codex. And orks weren't even first...
Expect point cost changes. Even earlier ones got changes between start of 9e and own codex.
If you use ramming speed, and that results in you being able to use Unstoppable momentum, does that mean your secondary charge afterwards, is also a ramming speed? or just a normal charge?
If you use ramming speed, and that results in you being able to use Unstoppable momentum, does that mean your secondary charge afterwards, is also a ramming speed? or just a normal charge?
Ramming speed affects all charges you make in that phase.
If you use ramming speed, and that results in you being able to use Unstoppable momentum, does that mean your secondary charge afterwards, is also a ramming speed? or just a normal charge?
Ramming speed affects all charges you make in that phase.
seriously? thats amazing i was 90% sure my next charge would not be a ramming speed charge.
This is a combo i never thought of before. I should try and combo that.
Thanks Jidmah.
Also for the grots discussion. I dont wanna have grots at T3 if it means paying more. for all i care they could be toughness 1 and id get 2 grots for 1s price as long as they are as cheap as possible. Of course if they remain 5 points at T3 and gets something else that may work. but even so, 1 grot for 5 points sucks regardless.
If you use ramming speed, and that results in you being able to use Unstoppable momentum, does that mean your secondary charge afterwards, is also a ramming speed? or just a normal charge?
Yesss, my favorite combo on Scrapjets. Up to 12 Mortal wounds. And if you combine it with 12” move via double pile in and double consolidation and get two opponent shooty dradnoughts / small knights / etc. in CC and disable 20% of his shooting, well…. they will love you! Let' s call it 10” move + 2x8” charge + 12” double fight = 38” move + you can advance and charge via warboss on bike / wartrike plus some inches in case of Evil Sunz. In total maximum could be up to 10 + 2 + 6 + 1 + 2x18+ 2x1 + 12 = 69” …. Holy feth!
This can allow you the first turn charge deep in enemy deploy - the elementary condition is, that your epponent is kind enough to use some scouts deployed in the midfield you can use like a slingshot and stupid enough to have no other screen.
I did exactly this againts some guy with bunch of shooty dreadnoughts and 2 scouts last week. Pretty rare situation however…
Actually, this is the only “combo” I see in our army. The rest is just “use a strategem to fight twice” kind of trick…
Automatically Appended Next Post: Well, in real, it is little bit less, you need to slide around. I did some measuremts actually, and it is about 35” with double charge and about 27” with the single charge.
If you use ramming speed, and that results in you being able to use Unstoppable momentum, does that mean your secondary charge afterwards, is also a ramming speed? or just a normal charge?
Yesss, my favorite combo on Scrapjets. Up to 12 Mortal wounds. And if you combine it with 12” move via double pile in and double consolidation and get two opponent shooty dradnoughts / small knights / etc. in CC and disable 20% of his shooting, well…. they will love you! Let' s call it 10” move + 2x8” charge + 12” double fight = 38” move + you can advance and charge via warboss on bike / wartrike plus some inches in case of Evil Sunz.
This can allow you the first turn charge deep in enemy deploy - the elementary condition is, that your epponent is kind enough to use some scouts deployed in the midfield you can use like a slingshot and stupid enough to have no other screen.
I did exactly this againts some guy with bunch of shooty dreadnoughts and 2 scouts last week. Pretty rare situation however…
Actually, this is the only “combo” I see in our army. The rest is just “use a strategem to fight twice” kind of trick…
Automatically Appended Next Post: Well, in real, it is little bit less, you need to slide around. I did some measuremts actually, and it is about 35” with double charge and about 27” with the single charge.
I'm at a loss for words here...
You've sold me on buying models I don't like to look at! Where where you when I had money!
Charging counts as a fight first mechanic, which means its no longer trumped by rules that allow a unit to "always fight first" and instead interweaves them, starting with the player who's turn it is.
So we can charge those annoying "fight first" units and still actually fight first, but they will immediately swing back before we can fight with a 2nd unit that charged that turn.
Big win as i always found it frustrating that those rules trumped charging entirely before.
Charging counts as a fight first mechanic, which means its no longer trumped by rules that allow a unit to "always fight first" and instead interweaves them, starting with the player who's turn it is.
So we can charge those annoying "fight first" units and still actually fight first, but they will immediately swing back before we can fight with a 2nd unit that charged that turn.
Big win as i always found it frustrating that those rules trumped charging entirely before.
Yess!
And Nobbikers lost again the double killsaw and kombiweapons. So I expect, the new codex bring it back in one month to make a tradition from this correction
If you use ramming speed, and that results in you being able to use Unstoppable momentum, does that mean your secondary charge afterwards, is also a ramming speed? or just a normal charge?
Yesss, my favorite combo on Scrapjets. Up to 12 Mortal wounds. And if you combine it with 12” move via double pile in and double consolidation and get two opponent shooty dradnoughts / small knights / etc. in CC and disable 20% of his shooting, well…. they will love you! Let' s call it 10” move + 2x8” charge + 12” double fight = 38” move + you can advance and charge via warboss on bike / wartrike plus some inches in case of Evil Sunz.
This can allow you the first turn charge deep in enemy deploy - the elementary condition is, that your epponent is kind enough to use some scouts deployed in the midfield you can use like a slingshot and stupid enough to have no other screen.
I did exactly this againts some guy with bunch of shooty dreadnoughts and 2 scouts last week. Pretty rare situation however…
Actually, this is the only “combo” I see in our army. The rest is just “use a strategem to fight twice” kind of trick…
Automatically Appended Next Post: Well, in real, it is little bit less, you need to slide around. I did some measuremts actually, and it is about 35” with double charge and about 27” with the single charge.
i got cluster fethed by a Thousand sons army yesterday using a modified army of the one you send me some time ago. I normally win with my ghaz army here but he hard counters my buggy list with 72 and 42 range shooting + his teleporting terminators hiding behind stuff, teleports in and rips down like 4-5 buggies. Couple that with me having gone second the last 5 battles ive had, it didnt look good from the start. yikes. Anyway he blocked my movement with a chaos spawn which annoyed the hell out of me. I hadnt thought about doing this untill now because i didnt know ramming speed would still activate afterwards. Still though its a 4CP combo.
But a question to what you said, if you ramming speed a guy with a scrapjet, and he dies to a mix of the ramming speed MW and my own scrapjet MW, then you pile in, and consolidate, that gives you 6 inches of movement. but since he died already before you started hitting him, are you thus allowed to pile in and consolidate, as per their kustom job, even though he died already so early in to the fight?
Thats a lot of movement. thats 12 inches from consolidation and piling in alone.
Im assuming for the purpose of "grind them down", a single buggy counts as a unit right?
What does GW have against power klaws these days. Not a single new model features a PK. Mega boss has a Choppa. Snagga boss git has some weird grabba claw on a stikk arm, leggy painboy has some weird not quite klaw, the trike git has a punch dagger, and the runtherd has a grabbing klaw on a stick.
Power klaws are objectively poop compared to the killsaw which for some reason passed into yet another CA at the exact same price as the klaw, so it makes little sense to use them on boys or nobs, and meganobs now have little reason to pick a klaw over dual saws.
With the mega boss is this the death knell for ye olde reliable powere klawe?
Very frustrating as klaw was clearly the quintessential ork gubbin for dicin and krushin gits.
Killsaw are just awful from a modeling standpoint.
TedNugent wrote: What does GW have against power klaws these days. Not a single new model features a PK. Mega boss has a Choppa. Snagga boss git has some weird grabba claw on a stikk arm, leggy painboy has some weird not quite klaw, the trike git has a punch dagger, and the runtherd has a grabbing klaw on a stick.
Power klaws are objectively poop compared to the killsaw which for some reason passed into yet another CA at the exact same price as the klaw, so it makes little sense to use them on boys or nobs, and meganobs now have little reason to pick a klaw over dual saws.
With the mega boss is this the death knell for ye olde reliable powere klawe?
Very frustrating as klaw was clearly the quintessential ork gubbin for dicin and krushin gits.
Killsaw are just awful from a modeling standpoint.
I think gw just thinks power klaws are too refined or somethin maybe. I know for sure stat wise though that I’d take a klaw / kill saw over this ‘uge choppa garbage lol. Heavy thunder hammers from deathwatch vets are better.
probably because the archtype that is a powerfist/klaw is concrete enough in their eyes to not change it, and they need to create other weapons to compensate.
Technically a PK is "stronger" than the Uge Choppa, as its Sx2 instead of S+3. But in practice the -1 to hit and presumably cost difference (still expecting PKs to cost like 2-3pts more for some reason) limit it so much that its actually worse.
i got cluster fethed by a Thousand sons army yesterday using a modified army of the one you send me some time ago. I normally win with my ghaz army here but he hard counters my buggy list with 72 and 42 range shooting + his teleporting terminators hiding behind stuff, teleports in and rips down like 4-5 buggies. Couple that with me having gone second the last 5 battles ive had, it didnt look good from the start. yikes. Anyway he blocked my movement with a chaos spawn which annoyed the hell out of me. I hadnt thought about doing this untill now because i didnt know ramming speed would still activate afterwards. Still though its a 4CP combo.
But a question to what you said, if you ramming speed a guy with a scrapjet, and he dies to a mix of the ramming speed MW and my own scrapjet MW, then you pile in, and consolidate, that gives you 6 inches of movement. but since he died already before you started hitting him, are you thus allowed to pile in and consolidate, as per their kustom job, even though he died already so early in to the fight?
Thats a lot of movement. thats 12 inches from consolidation and piling in alone.
Im assuming for the purpose of "grind them down", a single buggy counts as a unit right?
Ramming Speed and Unstop. Momentum are activated in Charge phase. Not in the Fight phase. So you charge, deal MWs, kill a unit, charge again and deal MWs again. After that comes the fight. So Pile in, fight, consolidate, pile, fight, consolidate. And yes, it' s 4CP, which is a lot.
Yeah, I was clusterfucked similar way. The weak spot of the buggy list is the combination of huge base, dense terrain and low range. Your move can be blocked. It' s hard to counter againts experienced player. You can do something with the wide deploy going more routes and screen. Put the KBB and wagons etc in front and keep Scrapjets in the middle but covered well. But this is not always helpfull. I do some experiments with Scrapjets in Telyport, which guarantee you some charges and keeps them safe. But then you face the troubles with the screening and hell - you spend another 2CP for Telyport.
I found essential to play a heavy chess game againts Mortarion / other large cc and fast /teleporting armies to screen them. Most of them has a large bases so well positioned buggies, grots and other stuff can make them chewing something less important.
I' ve found KBB very much a screening buggy. Fast, cheapest and helps me keep Morty 12” away from my Dragstas and Scrapjets that can shoot at him. This could be similar with telyporting termies.
i got cluster fethed by a Thousand sons army yesterday using a modified army of the one you send me some time ago. I normally win with my ghaz army here but he hard counters my buggy list with 72 and 42 range shooting + his teleporting terminators hiding behind stuff, teleports in and rips down like 4-5 buggies. Couple that with me having gone second the last 5 battles ive had, it didnt look good from the start. yikes. Anyway he blocked my movement with a chaos spawn which annoyed the hell out of me. I hadnt thought about doing this untill now because i didnt know ramming speed would still activate afterwards. Still though its a 4CP combo.
But a question to what you said, if you ramming speed a guy with a scrapjet, and he dies to a mix of the ramming speed MW and my own scrapjet MW, then you pile in, and consolidate, that gives you 6 inches of movement. but since he died already before you started hitting him, are you thus allowed to pile in and consolidate, as per their kustom job, even though he died already so early in to the fight?
Thats a lot of movement. thats 12 inches from consolidation and piling in alone.
Im assuming for the purpose of "grind them down", a single buggy counts as a unit right?
Ramming Speed and Unstop. Momentum are activated in Charge phase. Not in the Fight phase. So you charge, deal MWs, kill a unit, charge again and deal MWs again. After that comes the fight. So Pile in, fight, consolidate, pile, fight, consolidate. And yes, it' s 4CP, which is a lot.
Yeah, I was clusterfucked similar way. The weak spot of the buggy list is the combination of huge base, dense terrain and low range. Your move can be blocked. It' s hard to counter againts experienced player. You can do something with the wide deploy going more routes and screen. Put the KBB and wagons etc in front and keep Scrapjets in the middle but covered well. But this is not always helpfull. I do some experiments with Scrapjets in Telyport, which guarantee you some charges and keeps them safe. But then you face the troubles with the screening and hell - you spend another 2CP for Telyport.
Yea.. i need to experiment a lot more with Da tellyporta. Maybe scrapjets in deepstrike isnt too bad.
On the other hand, i think ill change out the ZagZap kustom job gunwagon. The total of 6 damage isnt that great i feel, and it would be better for me to just slam a gunwagon down with da boomer, or at yet another Kannon wagon. 170ish points for something that has 2 shots that auto hits and deal max 6 damage hasnt really paid off a lot for me. Sure it can snipe things with low hp in cover and all, but still.
But really that Thousand sons army my friend has is so mean to my buggies. teleporting terminators that always sit some place i cant see turn 1, fires 80 str 5 shots at me, hitting on 2s, rerolling 1s, +1 to wound so he still wounds on 4s despite using str 5 weapons. And then the 3 defilers shooting basically as hard or harder than my own scrapjets really tear me down quickly. Maybe if Mork actually allowed me to go turn 1 (which i havent the last 5 games) it would help but apparently not
You guys werent lying when you said some armies really hard counter buggy lists.
Yea.. i need to experiment a lot more with Da tellyporta. Maybe scrapjets in deepstrike isnt too bad.
On the other hand, i think ill change out the ZagZap kustom job gunwagon. The total of 6 damage isnt that great i feel, and it would be better for me to just slam a gunwagon down with da boomer, or at yet another Kannon wagon. 170ish points for something that has 2 shots that auto hits and deal max 6 damage hasnt really paid off a lot for me. Sure it can snipe things with low hp in cover and all, but still.
Yeah, I'm playing with zagzap -> Kannonwagon too. But I miss the transport capacity and the opening ability of MW.
Scrapjets in deepstrike are… I don' t know. Contradicting results, hard to see before the game, wheather will it work or not.
Yea.. i need to experiment a lot more with Da tellyporta. Maybe scrapjets in deepstrike isnt too bad.
On the other hand, i think ill change out the ZagZap kustom job gunwagon. The total of 6 damage isnt that great i feel, and it would be better for me to just slam a gunwagon down with da boomer, or at yet another Kannon wagon. 170ish points for something that has 2 shots that auto hits and deal max 6 damage hasnt really paid off a lot for me. Sure it can snipe things with low hp in cover and all, but still.
Yeah, I'm playing with zagzap -> Kannonwagon too.
Scrapjets in deepstrike are… I don' t know. Contradicting results, hard to see before the game, wheather will it work or not.
I feel like their big base size is a big problem, even if you can set them up 6" away from each other, a lot of the ideal areas for them to land will usually be crowded and restricted by both your own and enemy units. And then ramming speed will only apply to one of them, so chances are you'll only get 2 of them into melee the turn they tellyport down assuming you roll well. I always find myself wishing I could take squig hyde tyres with korkscrew.
Tomsug wrote: I feel like their big base size is a big problem, even if you can set them up 6" away from each other, a lot of the ideal areas for them to land will usually be crowded and restricted by both your own and enemy units. And then ramming speed will only apply to one of them, so chances are you'll only get 2 of them into melee the turn they tellyport down assuming you roll well. I always find myself wishing I could take squig hyde tyres with korkscrew.
Yea.. i need to experiment a lot more with Da tellyporta. Maybe scrapjets in deepstrike isnt too bad.
On the other hand, i think ill change out the ZagZap kustom job gunwagon. The total of 6 damage isnt that great i feel, and it would be better for me to just slam a gunwagon down with da boomer, or at yet another Kannon wagon. 170ish points for something that has 2 shots that auto hits and deal max 6 damage hasnt really paid off a lot for me. Sure it can snipe things with low hp in cover and all, but still.
Yeah, I'm playing with zagzap -> Kannonwagon too.
Scrapjets in deepstrike are… I don' t know. Contradicting results, hard to see before the game, wheather will it work or not.
you guys really hyped up the zapzag weapon profile on gunwagons but i really gotta say, they havent done me much.
Ive never played bad moon because i know they are generally inferior to death skulls. I mean technically anything is inferior to deathskulls but i went ahead and made a list i want to try against other people. I feel like its decent enough to do alot of carnage.
Spoiler:
Bad Moon clan fokus 1 extra gubbinz
Big mek with KFF Warboss, attack squig, Da Gobshot Blunderbuss, Kombi-weapon with scorcha, powerklaw Warboss on warbike, warlord, brutal but kunnin, Da biggest boss, Da killa Klaw
10x boys with shoota, 1 nob with powerklaw 9x boys with shoota, 1 nob with powerklaw 10x grots
5x Kommandos 5x Kommandos 4x Mega Nobz with killsaws 15x tankbustas, 6x Bomb squigs
Battlewagon with ard case, Deff Rolla, Forktress Gunwagon, Killkannon, da boomer, 4x bigs shootas Kannonwagon, 3x big shootas
Dakkajet, 6x supa shoota Dakkajet, 6x supa shoota
Trukk
What i intended to try with this list is to have 11 boys and warboss with 3xD6 flamer shots in the trukk. Manz + Grots in the Battlewagon. Whether i split push with truks on one side and BW on the other i dunno, maybe ill go both units on one side. That way my warboss can advance the MANZ if the BW dies. Or maybe the warboss should simply be placed inside the battlewagon, im not fully sure. If hes inside the BW maybe it shouldnt be ard' cased, because he cant fire out then. Anyway the Warboss on warbike advances the battlewagon and helps it out.
Supa shoota dakkajets shoots what ever it wanna shoot, same for kannon wagon and gunwagon. The Kommandos stays in deepstrike as does the Tankbustas. The tankbustas will come in where they can do most havoc, and uses 4CP, 2 for more dakka, 2 for showing off. Hopefully they can deal with enough enemy heavy vehicles that the rest of my shooting can take care of the rest.
What do you guys think? while i know its a bad moon army and we can have better, what do you think about the setup otherwise? Ive tried to capitalize on lots of shooting units to benefit that reroll of 1s in the shooting. Im unsure about what the kannonwagon should be replaced with if i wanted to do that, because that benefits mostly from deathskulls. But maybe its fine to keep.
Beardragon - I found myself once even telyporting all Dragstas and charge them to some Eldars in T1 just to stop them shooting and get some time to get the CC army to them in T2. Which was pretty stupid, but with better positioning and better rolls can maybe in rare situations works.. maybe…
Tomsug wrote: Beardragon - I found myself once even telyporting all Dragstas and charge them to some Eldars in T1 just to stop them shooting and get some time to get the CC army to them in T2. Which was pretty stupid, but with better positioning and better rolls can maybe in rare situations works.. maybe…
you know what? im gonna fething do it in my next battle, if i know my enemy has decent shooting at long range. ill deepstrike those MFs just to test out the waters.
But one thing i REALLY hope they do with the codex is putting deff dreads in the elite slot. I believe most if not all dreadnoughts are elite slots, why shouldnt deffdreads be? They are not large and impactful enough to take up a heavy support slot. i feel like the heavy support slot is our most crowded area where as the elite slot tends to be a barren desert.
That and I want deff dreads (and maybe kans) to have -1 damage on em. Additional hopes are a permanent -1 to hit on warbikers without strats and just like d3+1 power klaws.
Some dude 4th on Rock\ Top Rumble with combination of Ghazz, SMG spam and deatskull buggy list pimped up with Mega Dread. And the list makes totally sence.
I like it. Let it be the answer to the “why not a Ghazzy in Deathskull buggy list” question.
Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote: That and I want deff dreads (and maybe kans) to have -1 damage on em. Additional hopes are a permanent -1 to hit on warbikers without strats and just like d3+1 power klaws.
I'd settle for ramshackle on all our vehicles, with maybe upping the ramshackle roll to a 5+ for some of our bigger stuff like Stompas and Gork/Morkanauts.
If the warbikers get T6 AND -1 to hit? That'd be rad, but I can't imagine GW pricing them well with those buffs.
Charging counts as a fight first mechanic, which means its no longer trumped by rules that allow a unit to "always fight first" and instead interweaves them, starting with the player who's turn it is.
So we can charge those annoying "fight first" units and still actually fight first, but they will immediately swing back before we can fight with a 2nd unit that charged that turn.
Big win as i always found it frustrating that those rules trumped charging entirely before.
Clarification was good.
But it just means fight last is king. You charge (get fight first), they fight last your unit, they can punch you ahead of you.
Orks as a combat army will fully be our access to easy to use fight last.
Fortunately, Fight Last is a relatively rare rule and most outside of the Silent King are specific to what they actually work against. Fight First, however, is rather common.
Also....guys...under the new Muster Your Army rules...
Wooo! We can bring a super for only 1cp now! which is FAR easier to stomach!
Vineheart01 wrote: Fortunately, Fight Last is a relatively rare rule and most outside of the Silent King are specific to what they actually work against. Fight First, however, is rather common.
Also....guys...under the new Muster Your Army rules...
Wooo! We can bring a super for only 1cp now! which is FAR easier to stomach!
maybe my english fails me but i dont, at all, understand the text on the picture. It means we can bring a super heavy for 1CP? nice.
Edit: I think i finally understood it. Oh yea maybe i should've bought a killtank this month then. but ive already used up my warhammer 40k budget lol
kingbbobb wrote: the new FAQ has solidified certain units abilities to fallback and shoot. under core rules on "units that count as remaining stationary"
Eldar with battlefocus can now officially fall back and shoot - thats most infantry without heavy weapons
"If this unit moves or Advances in its Movement phase, weapons (excluding Heavy weapons) are used as if the unit had remained stationary."
and i guess Tau Mont’ka aswell.
You can't advance and falling back at the same time, they are mutually exclusive ways of moving. So no remaining stationary for falling back eldar. This mostly affects some stratagems and I think DA have chant that does this.
It's also worth noting that this is how it worked before, it was just clarified because many people argued that it was not intended that way.
Charging counts as a fight first mechanic, which means its no longer trumped by rules that allow a unit to "always fight first" and instead interweaves them, starting with the player who's turn it is.
So we can charge those annoying "fight first" units and still actually fight first, but they will immediately swing back before we can fight with a 2nd unit that charged that turn.
Big win as i always found it frustrating that those rules trumped charging entirely before.
I thought charging was already a source of fighting first ability and I've always played it like it was. Pag 361, Rulebook: it clearly says to alternate units that charged and units with fight first rule.
Charging counts as a fight first mechanic, which means its no longer trumped by rules that allow a unit to "always fight first" and instead interweaves them, starting with the player who's turn it is.
So we can charge those annoying "fight first" units and still actually fight first, but they will immediately swing back before we can fight with a 2nd unit that charged that turn.
Big win as i always found it frustrating that those rules trumped charging entirely before.
Clarification was good.
But it just means fight last is king. You charge (get fight first), they fight last your unit, they can punch you ahead of you.
Orks as a combat army will fully be our access to easy to use fight last.
Fight first/last is becoming pretty common in 9th, I'm sure we'll get our ways to get access to those abilties as well.
I wish they would just get rid of all fight first/last rules (aside from the basic BRB rules, basically just "you charge, you fight first"). It is a game breaking rule that GW doesn't have the skill to cost appropriately in terms of points
addnid wrote: I wish they would just get rid of all fight first/last rules (aside from the basic BRB rules, basically just "you charge, you fight first"). It is a game breaking rule that GW doesn't have the skill to cost appropriately in terms of points
Maybe, I think it's an interesting mechanic, but it's implemented badly.
It really could work like MtG's first strike if they've just keyworded it. Fight phase: First fight step - All units with "fight first" fight, starting with active player Second fight step - All units without "fight last" that have not fought yet fight, starting with non-active player Third fight step - All units with that have not fought yet or have "fight twice" fight, starting with active player
"Fight first" and "fight last" cancel each other out, units with both "fight twice" and "fight last" can be selected twice during the third fight step. Multiple instances of any of the abilities are redundant. Then just get rid of that "not eligible to fight" gak.
I also don't think it can't be costed properly - the DG foul blightspawn with relic probably is probably most powerful version of this ability and he is a good option, but far from an auto-take. In other words, costed properly for what he does.
Charging counts as a fight first mechanic, which means its no longer trumped by rules that allow a unit to "always fight first" and instead interweaves them, starting with the player who's turn it is.
So we can charge those annoying "fight first" units and still actually fight first, but they will immediately swing back before we can fight with a 2nd unit that charged that turn.
Big win as i always found it frustrating that those rules trumped charging entirely before.
Umm pretty sure it did before? At least rule says "charging units fight first. Also the article at least made it sound as clarification rather than change. Plus TTT guys been using it like that(and been saying "enemy always strike last is only true always strike first as such") and seeing they were playtesters I would assume they know rules.
Could be wrong though. Don't have that happen all that much for me anyway.
addnid wrote: I wish they would just get rid of all fight first/last rules (aside from the basic BRB rules, basically just "you charge, you fight first"). It is a game breaking rule that GW doesn't have the skill to cost appropriately in terms of points
Maybe, I think it's an interesting mechanic, but it's implemented badly.
It really could work like MtG's first strike if they've just keyworded it.
Fight phase:
First fight step - All units with "fight first" fight, starting with active player
Second fight step - All units without "fight last" that have not fought yet fight, starting with non-active player
Third fight step - All units with that have not fought yet or have "fight twice" fight, starting with active player
"Fight first" and "fight last" cancel each other out, units with both "fight twice" and "fight last" can be selected twice during the third fight step. Multiple instances of any of the abilities are redundant.
Then just get rid of that "not eligible to fight" gak.
I also don't think it can't be costed properly - the DG foul blightspawn with relic probably is probably most powerful version of this ability and he is a good option, but far from an auto-take. In other words, costed properly for what he does.
True the MtG intiative step is a good implementation. They even did "double intitative" hah hah, they would not have if implementation of "simple initative" was not optimal. But alas, people like you and me who play both games know how wide the gap is between the respective abilities of both GW and WoTC in terms of rule implementation...
Also, the intitative characteristic which existed was a much simpler way to decide who fought first... They were stupid to kill that, and then bring back a fight order based on shoddy rule writing... They should bring it back in 10th ed, if they want to mess with fighting orders. GW is really bad at this sort of stuff, even when they get it right, they then proceed to get rid of it, then bring it back in a worse form...
As much as GW didn't do a great job implementing exceptions to the current alternating fighting rules in the fight phase, I don't want to go back to initiative like it was in 5th-7th edition as a stat. One big problem for us was that as Orks, we were effectively the "have-nots" when it came to initiative. I2 base for most of our units meant we only fought at the same time as Necrons and a few other slow units in other armies. Especially once they changed furious charge to lose the initiative bonus, it meant that we basically always had to settle for being attacked first, which is a pretty big problem when our defences in combat got increasingly weaker as armies got deadlier and deadlier and our ways of mitigating in CC was basically just relegated to FNP by the time of 7th and the MAW with the Lucky Stikk. It sucks for guys like Eldar, but I feel especially for how CC centric the game is now for objectives, that bringing back initiative would only screw us over assuming they don't make charges like they are now where people who charge count as being I10 or something.
If you intend to deepstrike a gorkanaut and have nothing else to throw sparkly bits on, would that not increase your damage more than slug gubbins?
Slug gubbins do give you 6 more shots with the deffstorm mega shoota, but everything else still hits on a 5. + you actually need to be wary with how you shoot, as you cant shoot the unit in front of you, as you would remove your charge target. so the target you wanna charge needs to be near another target worth shooting to get the +1 to hit.
Sparkly bits seem to me to be the better choice here? unless of course another unit uses sparkly bits already
Beardedragon wrote: If you intend to deepstrike a gorkanaut and have nothing else to throw sparkly bits on, would that not increase your damage more than slug gubbins?
Slug gubbins do give you 6 more shots with the deffstorm mega shoota, but everything else still hits on a 5. + you actually need to be wary with how you shoot, as you cant shoot the unit in front of you, as you would remove your charge target. so the target you wanna charge needs to be near another target worth shooting to get the +1 to hit.
Sparkly bits seem to me to be the better choice here? unless of course another unit uses sparkly bits already
The problem is the opportunity cost that you mention of it being much more viable on a Morkanaut compared to a Gorkanaut. A Gorkanaut is already pretty subpar as a unit comparatively, the slug gubbin is taken usually in addition to that of sparkly bitz. Furthermore, I actually wouldn't say that it ruins your charge that much because if you're tellyporting your Gorkanaut you're also likely to be using Ramming Speed on the turn he arrives so your big 300 point investment isn't stuck pissing in the wind if he fails the charge, so even if it's an 11" charge after your round of shooting with it, you still have a pretty good chance of making it into combat.
kingbbobb wrote: the new FAQ has solidified certain units abilities to fallback and shoot. under core rules on "units that count as remaining stationary"
Eldar with battlefocus can now officially fall back and shoot - thats most infantry without heavy weapons
"If this unit moves or Advances in its Movement phase, weapons (excluding Heavy weapons) are used as if the unit had remained stationary."
and i guess Tau Mont’ka aswell.
You can't advance and falling back at the same time, they are mutually exclusive ways of moving. So no remaining stationary for falling back eldar. This mostly affects some stratagems and I think DA have chant that does this.
It's also worth noting that this is how it worked before, it was just clarified because many people argued that it was not intended that way.
Yeah it's been confirmed they can fallback and shoot
Beardedragon wrote: If you intend to deepstrike a gorkanaut and have nothing else to throw sparkly bits on, would that not increase your damage more than slug gubbins?
Slug gubbins do give you 6 more shots with the deffstorm mega shoota, but everything else still hits on a 5. + you actually need to be wary with how you shoot, as you cant shoot the unit in front of you, as you would remove your charge target. so the target you wanna charge needs to be near another target worth shooting to get the +1 to hit.
Sparkly bits seem to me to be the better choice here? unless of course another unit uses sparkly bits already
The problem is the opportunity cost that you mention of it being much more viable on a Morkanaut compared to a Gorkanaut. A Gorkanaut is already pretty subpar as a unit comparatively, the slug gubbin is taken usually in addition to that of sparkly bitz. Furthermore, I actually wouldn't say that it ruins your charge that much because if you're tellyporting your Gorkanaut you're also likely to be using Ramming Speed on the turn he arrives so your big 300 point investment isn't stuck pissing in the wind if he fails the charge, so even if it's an 11" charge after your round of shooting with it, you still have a pretty good chance of making it into combat.
true. but i was thinking, if i do bring a gorkanaut, i dont see why i should also bring a morkanaut. both units are easy to kill and are sitting on 340 points. i would probably only bring one naut. Wouldnt that make Sparkly bits better than slug gubbinz then? I mean your rokkits and 12 big shoota shots also hits on 4s
kingbbobb wrote: the new FAQ has solidified certain units abilities to fallback and shoot. under core rules on "units that count as remaining stationary"
Eldar with battlefocus can now officially fall back and shoot - thats most infantry without heavy weapons
"If this unit moves or Advances in its Movement phase, weapons (excluding Heavy weapons) are used as if the unit had remained stationary."
and i guess Tau Mont’ka aswell.
You can't advance and falling back at the same time, they are mutually exclusive ways of moving. So no remaining stationary for falling back eldar. This mostly affects some stratagems and I think DA have chant that does this.
It's also worth noting that this is how it worked before, it was just clarified because many people argued that it was not intended that way.
Yeah it's been confirmed they can fallback and shoot
I might want to re-read their rule. Battle focus only works when advancing. If you fall back, no advancing. No advancing, no "count as stationary".
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Beardedragon wrote: true. but i was thinking, if i do bring a gorkanaut, i dont see why i should also bring a morkanaut. both units are easy to kill and are sitting on 340 points. i would probably only bring one naut. Wouldnt that make Sparkly bits better than slug gubbinz then? I mean your rokkits and 12 big shoota shots also hits on 4s
His point was that you shouldn't bring a grokanaut with sparkly bits if you can bring a morkanaut with sparkly bits.
That said, slug gubbin gives you 3 extra hits at S6 AP-1 while sparky bits gives you 2 extra hits at S5 AP0 and .33 extra rokkit hits, so the slug gubbin wins out in terms of damage.
kingbbobb wrote: the new FAQ has solidified certain units abilities to fallback and shoot. under core rules on "units that count as remaining stationary"
Eldar with battlefocus can now officially fall back and shoot - thats most infantry without heavy weapons
"If this unit moves or Advances in its Movement phase, weapons (excluding Heavy weapons) are used as if the unit had remained stationary."
and i guess Tau Mont’ka aswell.
You can't advance and falling back at the same time, they are mutually exclusive ways of moving. So no remaining stationary for falling back eldar. This mostly affects some stratagems and I think DA have chant that does this.
It's also worth noting that this is how it worked before, it was just clarified because many people argued that it was not intended that way.
Yeah it's been confirmed they can fallback and shoot
I might want to re-read their rule. Battle focus only works when advancing. If you fall back, no advancing. No advancing, no "count as stationary".
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Beardedragon wrote: true. but i was thinking, if i do bring a gorkanaut, i dont see why i should also bring a morkanaut. both units are easy to kill and are sitting on 340 points. i would probably only bring one naut. Wouldnt that make Sparkly bits better than slug gubbinz then? I mean your rokkits and 12 big shoota shots also hits on 4s
His point was that you shouldn't bring a grokanaut with sparkly bits if you can bring a morkanaut with sparkly bits.
That said, slug gubbin gives you 3 extra hits at S6 AP-1 while sparky bits gives you 2 extra hits at S5 AP0 and .33 extra rokkit hits, so the slug gubbin wins out in terms of damage.
oh but my point was that i wanted to deepstrike the gorkanaut, land, shoot, and charge in.
Wouldnt a Gorkanaut do that better given it has more CC attacks? I thought the Morkanauts main selling point was that it was footslogging up the field with a KFF to protect the army. I didnt think it would be better to deepstrike a Morkanaut, shoot and then charge.
Im also unsure about what you mean with the extra hits. The slug gubbinz gives you 24 S6 shots, rather than 18 without it. and then your remaining 12S5 shots + 2 rokkits would hit on 5s. With sparkly bits you go for 18 S6 shots, 12S5 shots and 2 rokkits all hitting on 4s, rather than your 24 S6 shots only.
Im not very good at math so i dont know what adds up to the most damage.
I think a point here i forgot to point out because i didnt think it was important was, that i was thinking about making a fun Bad Moons army. Hence the Gorkanaut for rerolling 1s with its many shots.
The gorkanaut with slug gubbing has 24 shots at BS4, which is 6 more shots than the sparkly bits naut, resulting in 3 more hits.
The sparkly gorkanaut instead gets 6 big shoota hits instead of 4 and 1 rokkit hit instead of .66
As for the additional CC attacks, in my experience it rarely makes a difference whether you have 12 hit rolls or 18 hit rolls. Meanwhile having a morkanaut hit something with the mega-zappa always makes a difference, so I would always opt for the morkanaut over the gorkanaut. But that's just my personal opinion.
The gorkanaut with slug gubbing has 24 shots at BS4, which is 6 more shots than the sparkly bits naut, resulting in 3 more hits.
The sparkly gorkanaut instead gets 6 big shoota hits instead of 4 and 1 rokkit hit instead of .66
As for the additional CC attacks, in my experience it rarely makes a difference whether you have 12 hit rolls or 18 hit rolls. Meanwhile having a morkanaut hit something with the mega-zappa always makes a difference, so I would always opt for the morkanaut over the gorkanaut. But that's just my personal opinion.
kingbbobb wrote: the new FAQ has solidified certain units abilities to fallback and shoot. under core rules on "units that count as remaining stationary"
Eldar with battlefocus can now officially fall back and shoot - thats most infantry without heavy weapons
"If this unit moves or Advances in its Movement phase, weapons (excluding Heavy weapons) are used as if the unit had remained stationary."
and i guess Tau Mont’ka aswell.
You can't advance and falling back at the same time, they are mutually exclusive ways of moving. So no remaining stationary for falling back eldar. This mostly affects some stratagems and I think DA have chant that does this.
It's also worth noting that this is how it worked before, it was just clarified because many people argued that it was not intended that way.
Yeah it's been confirmed they can fallback and shoot
I might want to re-read their rule. Battle focus only works when advancing. If you fall back, no advancing. No advancing, no "count as stationary
.
That's not what battle focus says it says if you MOVE or advance in the movement phase.
goon hammer specifically talk about Mont Ka here
But the wording of montka is similar to battle focus
".....most critically, it means that if you Fall Back and then count as Remaining Stationary you can shoot, boosting the power of Mont’ka specifically."
"Mont’ka: In a turn in which a FARSIGHT ENCLAVES COMMANDER unit from your army declared Mont’ka, at the start of your Movement phase you can select any friendly FARSIGHT ENCLAVES units within 6" of that unit. Until the end of that turn, the selected units can shoot as if they did not move this turn"
Im uncertain if I want Makari or a Weirdboi... Makari sounds nice for the 6+ FnP but I havent played enough games to know how significant that is compared to the utility of the weirdboi. Do I even need a weirdboy with this list?
The idea is that the nobz will sit in the trukk but I dont know if the correct play is to use them as the cleanup crew or to save that role for the slower thraka + boiz wave?
Makari is pretty much a joke unit. If you want to see him pin down a bloodthirster, you pick makari, otherwise anything else is better.
The most competitive choice would probably a painboy to heal Thrakka and buff the boyz, but the weirdboy is fine as well. I'd just bring warpath instead of fists, but that's just a matter of taste.
Im uncertain if I want Makari or a Weirdboi... Makari sounds nice for the 6+ FnP but I havent played enough games to know how significant that is compared to the utility of the weirdboi. Do I even need a weirdboy with this list?
The idea is that the nobz will sit in the trukk but I dont know if the correct play is to use them as the cleanup crew or to save that role for the slower thraka + boiz wave?
You don't have enough units and will struggle a lot to play the game with a list such as this. Ghaz is really expensive for 1000 points game so if you really want him I'd suggest to ditch the weirboy (or any other 2nd character you may want), trukk, meganobz and field more bodies, especially kommandos and more boyz. Maybe keep the 3 man squad of meganobz and put it into tellyporta. Save 30 points by ditching rokkits from boyz.
Im uncertain if I want Makari or a Weirdboi... Makari sounds nice for the 6+ FnP but I havent played enough games to know how significant that is compared to the utility of the weirdboi. Do I even need a weirdboy with this list?
The idea is that the nobz will sit in the trukk but I dont know if the correct play is to use them as the cleanup crew or to save that role for the slower thraka + boiz wave?
As others have said, I probably wouldn't use Ghaz at 1000 points, he's just too expensive at such a small scale.
That being said if I were to use Ghaz in a 1k list I would ditch all of the toys and just run Ghaz, painboy and as many boys and killsaws as I could squeeze in. Completely forego shooting in favour of drowning the opponent in bodies and praying they just don't have enough anti horde to deal with it all.
Oh wow makari being dissapointing is dissapointing... I dont want to be absolutely competitive, just wanna run some cool units.
So about thraka, I currently have only 2 half built 30 boi squads and with the approach of the snaggas im reluctant to get any more boi kits, which is why my list only runs 1 boy squad. I also dont have kommandos cuz no discount store sells them but I do have a squad of stormboyz... Im also considering kitbashing a regular nob into a big mek with KFF with the spare KFF i have from the MANZ kit, but HQ is cramped as is. I also have a squad of grots but since they have no synergy with thraka or anything else, I didnt use them.
Afrodactyl's example list looks interesting, but I wonder if there really isnt any way to incorporate MANZ in it?
Thanks for the advice guys.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, what if the new codex reduces boi squads to 20 models??? Is this something that is likely to happen? iirc thousand sons rubric squads got reduced to max 10 and i think other loyalist factions got the same treatment.
Also, what if the new codex reduces boi squads to 20 models??? Is this something that is likely to happen? iirc thousand sons rubric squads got reduced to max 10 and i think other loyalist factions got the same treatment.
We don't know it yet, although it seems not likely to happen. Most of the marines' units are capped at max 10, while boyz are 10-30 since ages. However with orks owning 60 boyz still sounds pretty safe, especially if you want to equip one mob with slugga/choppa and one with shootas. I wouldn't recommend to get more in this stage though and wait for the codex.
Personally, I would either run Ghaz, Painboy and boys blobs, or BB Warboss, KFF and MANz (MANz going in a tellyporta, or being da jumped up the field.
I also think boys are pretty safe when it comes to still being able to be taken in blobs of 30 in the new dex. Hordes of boys have always kind of been our thing.
Saw the T5 buff. Kind of worries me for horde lists as the points might go up. I feel like they almost have to go up.
Do you think most armies can reliably remove 120 t5 models off the field? Most mass fire weapons are str 4 at most. How would you kill off this many orks?
its not hard to remove mass T5 models, especially when they dont have a save to speak of. Its only remotely difficult because people dont even attempt to anticipate that issue, they only prepare for big bad things and mass 2W model things.
Vineheart01 wrote: its not hard to remove mass T5 models, especially when they dont have a save to speak of.
Its only remotely difficult because people dont even attempt to anticipate that issue, they only prepare for big bad things and mass 2W model things.
Not being sarcastic, I may not know, but what army has mass t5 to compare this to? I don't know, boy spam with boss/ghaz was scary enough at t4. Now not being able to reliably wound such a large count is pretty frightening. Has anyone tested out horde at t5 as of yet and seen if they noticed a difference?
Not necessarily at these numbers with 1W no but we already know from other armies that the high save (or -1D and 2/3W) does more work than T5 does.
Pre-2W -1D Deathguard often fielded a large number of T5, not 120 of them but still quite a lot. It wasnt the toughness that kept them alive, it was the 3+/5+++ that did (though the T5 did help)
My roommate has DG and i know first hand that i can wound them without really trying, issue is their saves just kept them up anyway.
T5 alone isnt that big a deal. All i expect from 30man T5 boy blobs is they wont get totally wiped from 1 round of shooting anymore and actually require 2-3 units to remove them (since nobody is gonna wanna fire 2 units of aggresors at them for example)
Vineheart01 wrote: Not necessarily at these numbers with 1W no but we already know from other armies that the high save (or -1D and 2/3W) does more work than T5 does.
Pre-2W -1D Deathguard often fielded a large number of T5, not 120 of them but still quite a lot. It wasnt the toughness that kept them alive, it was the 3+/5+++ that did (though the T5 did help)
My roommate has DG and i know first hand that i can wound them without really trying, issue is their saves just kept them up anyway.
T5 alone isnt that big a deal. All i expect from 30man T5 boy blobs is they wont get totally wiped from 1 round of shooting anymore and actually require 2-3 units to remove them (since nobody is gonna wanna fire 2 units of aggresors at them for example)
I'll have to try a few games myself to see. Definitely want to be wrong because I like my horde as an option lol. The only thing I have to compare this to is my friends DG and when I play Custodes/Gravis. Obv their saves are godly in comparison, I just notice so much bounces off from being unable to wound in the first place the idea of 90-120 bodies doing that is nuts.
GL ever getting the stars to align, but imagine a glorious world of 30 boys being KFF'd and Doc'd with T5 to boot. Or how scary Da Jump must seem now to the enemy. My god.
Personally, I would either run Ghaz, Painboy and boys blobs, or BB Warboss, KFF and MANz (MANz going in a tellyporta, or being da jumped up the field.
I also think boys are pretty safe when it comes to still being able to be taken in blobs of 30 in the new dex. Hordes of boys have always kind of been our thing.
Might be a stupid question but what is a BB Warboss?
Personally, I would either run Ghaz, Painboy and boys blobs, or BB Warboss, KFF and MANz (MANz going in a tellyporta, or being da jumped up the field.
I also think boys are pretty safe when it comes to still being able to be taken in blobs of 30 in the new dex. Hordes of boys have always kind of been our thing.
Might be a stupid question but what is a BB Warboss?
It’s just kinda wait for our dex time so we can see what is changing or more honestly wait for our limited boxset to go on sale. Then I can hover over the GW website and try to order the boxset before it sells out in 2minutes.. and then panick and call my FLGS and hope they can reserve me one.
well. considering 10 thousand sons terminators can hit on 2s, reroll 1s with +1 to wound and shoot around 80 shots by shooting twice, them removing T5 boys isnt a problem.
Ive seen some crazy craftworld stuff removing 60 boys in one round already yesterday.
considering their price, its more than fair that they get T5.
Boys just die way too fast.
I have a question related to Scorched Gitbones. it says you CAN add one to your psychic tests when using disciple of the waaagh. so lets say i wanna use Da Jump. Do i have to declare whether i use scorched git bones before or after i cast the ability? Like, can i roll 6 and then afterwards add the last 7 from the relic? or should this be declared before hand?
Also, scorched gitbones doesnt specifically state that it makes me explode if i rolled 11 and add 1 from gitbones. Does the weirdboy only explode if your +3 (2 or 1) from his own ability makes you reach 12 and beyond?
So if you get +3 from boys +1 from gitbones, would you then still explode on a roll of 8? or would you need a roll of 9 still? Because on 8 you add +3 from boys which puts you at 11, but that last gitbones added the last 12 but doesnt make you explode since its not part of his ability to explode when he reaches 12 or beyond?
Beardedragon wrote: well. considering 10 thousand sons terminators can hit on 2s, reroll 1s with +1 to wound and shoot around 80 shots by shooting twice, them removing T5 boys isnt a problem.
Ive seen some crazy craftworld stuff removing 60 boys in one round already yesterday.
considering their price, its more than fair that they get T5.
Boys just die way too fast.
I have a question related to Scorched Gitbones. it says you CAN add one to your psychic tests when using disciple of the waaagh. so lets say i wanna use Da Jump. Do i have to declare whether i use scorched git bones before or after i cast the ability? Like, can i roll 6 and then afterwards add the last 7 from the relic? or should this be declared before hand?
Also, scorched gitbones doesnt specifically state that it makes me explode if i rolled 11 and add 1 from gitbones. Does the weirdboy only explode if your +3 (2 or 1) from his own ability makes you reach 12 and beyond?
So if you get +3 from boys +1 from gitbones, would you then still explode on a roll of 8? or would you need a roll of 9 still? Because on 8 you add +3 from boys which puts you at 11, but that last gitbones added the last 12 but doesnt make you explode since its not part of his ability to explode when he reaches 12 or beyond?
Yo can choose to add the extra +1 or not. When you have to decide it is a Q that never came into play. Players I know do it after seen the result. I myself have never used it.
pepi55 wrote: Also, what if the new codex reduces boi squads to 20 models??? Is this something that is likely to happen? iirc thousand sons rubric squads got reduced to max 10 and i think other loyalist factions got the same treatment.
I don't think there is any real danger of that happening. The reduction of Chaos Legion squads was mostly because those units of 20 had some really odd interactions with buffs from stratagems and psychic powers that were meant for units of 10. Just as an example, my 20 plague marines were able to gun down a fully buffed magnus with just bolters and frag grenades.
Meanwhile orks were designed around boyz having 30 models, so I think we are safe.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Keramory wrote: Saw the T5 buff. Kind of worries me for horde lists as the points might go up. I feel like they almost have to go up.
Do you think most armies can reliably remove 120 t5 models off the field? Most mass fire weapons are str 4 at most. How would you kill off this many orks?
T5 helps the most against S4, which are now wounding 33.33% of their hits instead of 50%. So if they were killing 60 boyz before (not hard to do, some armies manage 90+), they are now killing at least 40.
Depending on how many of their weapons are S3, S6, S7 or S10, they might be killing more. My gut tells me that we will be losing 10-15 boyz less per turn against an average army. A great buff, but far from unstoppable.
Keramory wrote: Saw the T5 buff. Kind of worries me for horde lists as the points might go up. I feel like they almost have to go up.
Do you think most armies can reliably remove 120 t5 models off the field? Most mass fire weapons are str 4 at most. How would you kill off this many orks?
Anyone has the tools to remove 120 T5 boyz in 3 turns, even if some or all of them have 5++ and/or 6+++. Especially if it's no longer possible to resurrect 30 boyz.
S3-4 with high rate of fire will still kill lots of boyz. Bad save and 1 W, never forget that. And heavy bolters, assault cannons, splinter weapons etc... still exist.
BUT, most people wont have the ideal weapons to do that. they will still be kitted to deal with marines unless the boy swarm/snagga swarm becomes lethal.
Thats the whole reason boyz are even remotely viable right now, not enough guns to get through the wounds. At T5, now a 1/6th of those attacks suddenly failed up front. Unless theyre sporting multiple aggressor type rains of firepower, its enough to really be a problem.
Pretty much depends on how efficient they are priced. If theyre cheap enough the meta may shift to deal with them and theyre just "decent", but if it doesnt shift....fun fun time
Previously 1 squad of aggressors could easily wipe out multiple boy squads before they got anywhere, now they need help to do the same damage and generally aggressors are the only thing marines use for chaff clearing. And they dont spam them. Technically the plasma flyboy gits (i always forget what theyre called) are chaff clearing because for some dumb reason they got blast on 2x 1d3 guns, but theyre also expensive enough where if theyre taking out boyz LOL
Need a little insight from the smartboys. How do we deal with indirect fire in the early turns of the game, assuming we are going second on turn one. I've felt it was frustrating to be pelted by Wyverns and that the KFF and paint boy just wasn't up to the challenge of keeping my units alive. ..Having a dur duh moment.
What units are recommended to hunt those down in the best way possible?
The answer to indirect fire is probably grot shields isn't it...
Beardedragon wrote: well. considering 10 thousand sons terminators can hit on 2s, reroll 1s with +1 to wound and shoot around 80 shots by shooting twice, them removing T5 boys isnt a problem.
Ive seen some crazy craftworld stuff removing 60 boys in one round already yesterday.
considering their price, its more than fair that they get T5.
Boys just die way too fast.
I have a question related to Scorched Gitbones. it says you CAN add one to your psychic tests when using disciple of the waaagh. so lets say i wanna use Da Jump. Do i have to declare whether i use scorched git bones before or after i cast the ability? Like, can i roll 6 and then afterwards add the last 7 from the relic? or should this be declared before hand?
Also, scorched gitbones doesnt specifically state that it makes me explode if i rolled 11 and add 1 from gitbones. Does the weirdboy only explode if your +3 (2 or 1) from his own ability makes you reach 12 and beyond?
So if you get +3 from boys +1 from gitbones, would you then still explode on a roll of 8? or would you need a roll of 9 still? Because on 8 you add +3 from boys which puts you at 11, but that last gitbones added the last 12 but doesnt make you explode since its not part of his ability to explode when he reaches 12 or beyond?
with Waaagh! Energy you don't get a choice you have to add +1 to the result for every 10 ork models (excluding gretchin)
with git bones it says you "can" so you get a choice to add +1 to the result,
modifiers are applied after rolling the dice,otherwise it would conflict with the reroll rule "Re-rolls are applied before modifiers (if any)." (everyone can cp reroll a psychic test)
so the choice of adding +1 to the result is taken after you roll. and after any rerolls.
you suffer PERILS OF THE WARP when "double 1 or double 6 rolled". Note this does not say dice result of 2 or 12 so modifiers do not effect this rule
Waaagh! Energy however means they also suffer PERILS OF THE WARP when the result is 12 or more, this is after modiers have been applied. so a 6+4 =10 +3 from 30 boys and the result is 13, which means perils.
yeah thats something i seriously hope they remove.
Dumb enough our psykers are tissuepaper but theyre self-nuking when not a single other faction has a bonus to psyker tests that causes perils.
I get it, its thematic that theyre tapping into an unstable Waaaagh! energy, but gameplay wise its fething stupid.
warhead01 wrote: Need a little insight from the smartboys. How do we deal with indirect fire in the early turns of the game, assuming we are going second on turn one. I've felt it was frustrating to be pelted by Wyverns and that the KFF and paint boy just wasn't up to the challenge of keeping my units alive. ..Having a dur duh moment.
What units are recommended to hunt those down in the best way possible?
The answer to indirect fire is probably grot shields isn't it...
If you want to kill them, than Wazboom blastajets, teleporting shockjump dragstas and fast moving long range Kannonwagon looking for the right angle.
Regarding the protection - well, keep calm and carry onKFF, painboy and grotshield are the only protection. And deepstrike - units in deepstrike are pretty well protected.
warhead01 wrote: Need a little insight from the smartboys. How do we deal with indirect fire in the early turns of the game, assuming we are going second on turn one. I've felt it was frustrating to be pelted by Wyverns and that the KFF and paint boy just wasn't up to the challenge of keeping my units alive. ..Having a dur duh moment.
What units are recommended to hunt those down in the best way possible?
The answer to indirect fire is probably grot shields isn't it...
well that really depends on what it is shooting at, i am someone who uses neither pain boy nor kff as i usually don't use horde armies.
to protect turn 1 use
1/Dense Cover - the -1 hit modifier applies to weapons that don't require line of sight
2/transports- this will disable blast and protect the infantry
3/hide using deep strike stratagems and abilities
4/ weird boy dajump turn 1 charge tie them up in combat- even if you perils due to waggh energy you have enough wounds (w4) to survive d3 mortals and the power still manifests if 12+
5/SHOKKJUMP DRAGSTAS to advance jump turn 1 - shoot them -and use the stratagem TEMPERAMENTAL SHOKK DRIVE- to jump out of line of sight in the shooting phase. use the kustum job to avoid motal wounds. DRIVE-BY KRUMPIN if playing evil sons to do it with 2 models .
6/ WRECKERS if deathskulls +MONSTER HUNTERS if snakebites stratagems might help
turn 2
1/ drop on them using deep strike stratagems and abilities - mega dread with ramming speed seems popular these days
2/green tide a bunch of boys back on the board if taken heavy casualties
Beardedragon wrote: well. considering 10 thousand sons terminators can hit on 2s, reroll 1s with +1 to wound and shoot around 80 shots by shooting twice, them removing T5 boys isnt a problem.
Ive seen some crazy craftworld stuff removing 60 boys in one round already yesterday.
considering their price, its more than fair that they get T5.
Boys just die way too fast.
I have a question related to Scorched Gitbones. it says you CAN add one to your psychic tests when using disciple of the waaagh. so lets say i wanna use Da Jump. Do i have to declare whether i use scorched git bones before or after i cast the ability? Like, can i roll 6 and then afterwards add the last 7 from the relic? or should this be declared before hand?
Also, scorched gitbones doesnt specifically state that it makes me explode if i rolled 11 and add 1 from gitbones. Does the weirdboy only explode if your +3 (2 or 1) from his own ability makes you reach 12 and beyond?
So if you get +3 from boys +1 from gitbones, would you then still explode on a roll of 8? or would you need a roll of 9 still? Because on 8 you add +3 from boys which puts you at 11, but that last gitbones added the last 12 but doesnt make you explode since its not part of his ability to explode when he reaches 12 or beyond?
with Waaagh! Energy you don't get a choice you have to add +1 to the result for every 10 ork models (excluding gretchin)
with git bones it says you "can" so you get a choice to add +1 to the result,
modifiers are applied after rolling the dice,otherwise it would conflict with the reroll rule "Re-rolls are applied before modifiers (if any)." (everyone can cp reroll a psychic test)
so the choice of adding +1 to the result is taken after you roll. and after any rerolls.
you suffer PERILS OF THE WARP when "double 1 or double 6 rolled". Note this does not say dice result of 2 or 12 so modifiers do not effect this rule
Waaagh! Energy however means they also suffer PERILS OF THE WARP when the result is 12 or more, this is after modiers have been applied. so a 6+4 =10 +3 from 30 boys and the result is 13, which means perils.
I feel like you missed one important question to answer. that or i didnt understand it.
What happens if you get a roll of 8, add +3 which is a roll of 11 which is not a peril and was added due to your boys, but then you add +1 due to scorched git bones? Do you then peril? Because what set off the peril was a from scorched git bones, not the waaagh ability
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vineheart01 wrote: yeah thats something i seriously hope they remove.
Dumb enough our psykers are tissuepaper but theyre self-nuking when not a single other faction has a bonus to psyker tests that causes perils.
I get it, its thematic that theyre tapping into an unstable Waaaagh! energy, but gameplay wise its fething stupid.
true. i hope something happens that means i dont need to feel super scared every time i cast an ability.
Beardedragon wrote: well. considering 10 thousand sons terminators can hit on 2s, reroll 1s with +1 to wound and shoot around 80 shots by shooting twice, them removing T5 boys isnt a problem.
Ive seen some crazy craftworld stuff removing 60 boys in one round already yesterday.
considering their price, its more than fair that they get T5.
Boys just die way too fast.
I have a question related to Scorched Gitbones. it says you CAN add one to your psychic tests when using disciple of the waaagh. so lets say i wanna use Da Jump. Do i have to declare whether i use scorched git bones before or after i cast the ability? Like, can i roll 6 and then afterwards add the last 7 from the relic? or should this be declared before hand?
Also, scorched gitbones doesnt specifically state that it makes me explode if i rolled 11 and add 1 from gitbones. Does the weirdboy only explode if your +3 (2 or 1) from his own ability makes you reach 12 and beyond?
So if you get +3 from boys +1 from gitbones, would you then still explode on a roll of 8? or would you need a roll of 9 still? Because on 8 you add +3 from boys which puts you at 11, but that last gitbones added the last 12 but doesnt make you explode since its not part of his ability to explode when he reaches 12 or beyond?
with Waaagh! Energy you don't get a choice you have to add +1 to the result for every 10 ork models (excluding gretchin)
with git bones it says you "can" so you get a choice to add +1 to the result,
modifiers are applied after rolling the dice,otherwise it would conflict with the reroll rule "Re-rolls are applied before modifiers (if any)." (everyone can cp reroll a psychic test)
so the choice of adding +1 to the result is taken after you roll. and after any rerolls.
you suffer PERILS OF THE WARP when "double 1 or double 6 rolled". Note this does not say dice result of 2 or 12 so modifiers do not effect this rule
Waaagh! Energy however means they also suffer PERILS OF THE WARP when the result is 12 or more, this is after modiers have been applied. so a 6+4 =10 +3 from 30 boys and the result is 13, which means perils.
I feel like you missed one important question to answer. that or i didnt understand it.
What happens if you get a roll of 8, add +3 which is a roll of 11 which is not a peril and was added due to your boys, but then you add +1 due to scorched git bones? Do you then peril? Because what set off the peril was a from scorched git bones, not the waaagh ability
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vineheart01 wrote: yeah thats something i seriously hope they remove.
Dumb enough our psykers are tissuepaper but theyre self-nuking when not a single other faction has a bonus to psyker tests that causes perils.
I get it, its thematic that theyre tapping into an unstable Waaaagh! energy, but gameplay wise its fething stupid.
true. i hope something happens that means i dont need to feel super scared every time i cast an ability.
with git bones it says you "can" so you get a choice to add +1 to the result,
i thought i covered it with this part , you can choose to add +1 and in doing so choose to perils for an weirdboy suicide bomb lol or choose not to
Beardedragon wrote: well. considering 10 thousand sons terminators can hit on 2s, reroll 1s with +1 to wound and shoot around 80 shots by shooting twice, them removing T5 boys isnt a problem.
Ive seen some crazy craftworld stuff removing 60 boys in one round already yesterday.
considering their price, its more than fair that they get T5.
Boys just die way too fast.
I have a question related to Scorched Gitbones. it says you CAN add one to your psychic tests when using disciple of the waaagh. so lets say i wanna use Da Jump. Do i have to declare whether i use scorched git bones before or after i cast the ability? Like, can i roll 6 and then afterwards add the last 7 from the relic? or should this be declared before hand?
Also, scorched gitbones doesnt specifically state that it makes me explode if i rolled 11 and add 1 from gitbones. Does the weirdboy only explode if your +3 (2 or 1) from his own ability makes you reach 12 and beyond?
So if you get +3 from boys +1 from gitbones, would you then still explode on a roll of 8? or would you need a roll of 9 still? Because on 8 you add +3 from boys which puts you at 11, but that last gitbones added the last 12 but doesnt make you explode since its not part of his ability to explode when he reaches 12 or beyond?
with Waaagh! Energy you don't get a choice you have to add +1 to the result for every 10 ork models (excluding gretchin)
with git bones it says you "can" so you get a choice to add +1 to the result,
modifiers are applied after rolling the dice,otherwise it would conflict with the reroll rule "Re-rolls are applied before modifiers (if any)." (everyone can cp reroll a psychic test)
so the choice of adding +1 to the result is taken after you roll. and after any rerolls.
you suffer PERILS OF THE WARP when "double 1 or double 6 rolled". Note this does not say dice result of 2 or 12 so modifiers do not effect this rule
Waaagh! Energy however means they also suffer PERILS OF THE WARP when the result is 12 or more, this is after modiers have been applied. so a 6+4 =10 +3 from 30 boys and the result is 13, which means perils.
I feel like you missed one important question to answer. that or i didnt understand it.
What happens if you get a roll of 8, add +3 which is a roll of 11 which is not a peril and was added due to your boys, but then you add +1 due to scorched git bones? Do you then peril? Because what set off the peril was a from scorched git bones, not the waaagh ability
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vineheart01 wrote: yeah thats something i seriously hope they remove.
Dumb enough our psykers are tissuepaper but theyre self-nuking when not a single other faction has a bonus to psyker tests that causes perils.
I get it, its thematic that theyre tapping into an unstable Waaaagh! energy, but gameplay wise its fething stupid.
true. i hope something happens that means i dont need to feel super scared every time i cast an ability.
with git bones it says you "can" so you get a choice to add +1 to the result,
i thought i covered it with this part , you can choose to add +1 and in doing so choose to perils for an weirdboy suicide bomb lol or choose not to
ah right. thank you.
But then again i guess why the F would you choose to peril anyway. Its kind of a stupid question i asked. I guess it was only relevant before i knew you could choose to add +1 from git bones after you've thrown your dies
@Tomsug, @kingbbobb.
Thankyou. I've only played my Orks twice this edition and only one of those games against another player. I completely forgot about the Grot shields during that game. Zounds 5ppm is way too much for grots. I need to rethinnk my list idea to squeeze in more of them.
I am trying to get back to the foot slogging green tide, much like i have preferred to play for basically forever. My usual opponent is programed to screen out any possibilities for a good use of Da jump. I made him very worried about it during our games of 8th. I'm trying to id some kind of tank killer with a small footprint I can deepstrike into position early but points seem to get in the way of what I'd like to use. I know I could walk on into a spot on turn two. I like the idea of using the green tide strat along with maybe grot shields if I can pull some kind of bate and switch.
I try to bring my A game with my usual opponent even though I don't play competitively, as in going to tournaments.
Anywhooo. Thanks for the help I'll dust off my wazbomba and see if I can stick it in a list.
Considering that any unit with kustom job also costs 1 CP, the only real downside is not getting access to culture buffs. At least deathskulls can still use Wreckers on it.
So yesterday i played 2 games with a bad moon army (my first time using bad moon) with the intentions of seeing what could dakkajets do in a bad moon army, and what could the tankbustas do. I played against a Chaos/thousand sons army which i won, and a deathguard, which i lost.
Dakkajets were.. okayish i guess but then again i suppose you could get much else for 170 points.
But my real hype was deepstriking in 15 tankbustas and 6 squigs, using more dakka and showin' off. The tankbusta squigs put Magnus to 4 wounds on, and they otherwise killed 2 Defilers.
I feel like the idea of having tankbustas in a bad moon detatchment, is something i want to experiment on, but id only want them in a patrol. Or maybe its not even that important to be able to shoot twice with tankbustas and i should slam them down in what ever detatchment im already using.
How do you use your tankbustas? because i fail to put together an adequate list that has these guys in it. But i guess if you put 2CP down for a patrol, and you still wanna deepstrike them, that becomes a bit of a problem as the whole combo then takes 8CP. So i guess you would have to da jump the tankbustas to save 2CP from deepstrike. Im also unsure if i should keep them more safe by putting them in a vehicle instead, but this would also mean i cant use stratagems.
So how do you normally run tankbustas and what is your best list, involving them?
They dont shoot very far, their save values are pisspoor and they will be priority target nr 1 when they land on the board, so i cant really see them survive past the round they were deployed in, which also makes them difficult to use. I got a lot of value out of them in my thousand sons matchup, but a lot less value in my deathguard match up due to poor positioning.
In 8th, when typical lists started with 18+ CPs and 3 different detachments I played the max mob of Bad Moons tankbustas several times, as it was devastating.
6 CPs (Tellyporta, More Dakka, Showing Off) wasn't insane considering all the CPs we could easily have at the beginning of the game. Now it's 8 CPs unless playing with a full Bad Moons army and we start with 12 CPs, so I've completely abandoned that combo.
I still play tankbustas sometimes, but typically 10 + 4 bomb squigs that outflank. 210 points and 1-3 CPs required, which is reasonable even without the possibility of firing twice.
Beardedragon wrote: well. considering 10 thousand sons terminators can hit on 2s, reroll 1s with +1 to wound and shoot around 80 shots by shooting twice, them removing T5 boys isnt a problem.
Ive seen some crazy craftworld stuff removing 60 boys in one round already yesterday.
considering their price, its more than fair that they get T5.
Boys just die way too fast.
I have a question related to Scorched Gitbones. it says you CAN add one to your psychic tests when using disciple of the waaagh. so lets say i wanna use Da Jump. Do i have to declare whether i use scorched git bones before or after i cast the ability? Like, can i roll 6 and then afterwards add the last 7 from the relic? or should this be declared before hand?
Also, scorched gitbones doesnt specifically state that it makes me explode if i rolled 11 and add 1 from gitbones. Does the weirdboy only explode if your +3 (2 or 1) from his own ability makes you reach 12 and beyond?
So if you get +3 from boys +1 from gitbones, would you then still explode on a roll of 8? or would you need a roll of 9 still? Because on 8 you add +3 from boys which puts you at 11, but that last gitbones added the last 12 but doesnt make you explode since its not part of his ability to explode when he reaches 12 or beyond?
with Waaagh! Energy you don't get a choice you have to add +1 to the result for every 10 ork models (excluding gretchin)
with git bones it says you "can" so you get a choice to add +1 to the result,
modifiers are applied after rolling the dice,otherwise it would conflict with the reroll rule "Re-rolls are applied before modifiers (if any)." (everyone can cp reroll a psychic test)
so the choice of adding +1 to the result is taken after you roll. and after any rerolls.
you suffer PERILS OF THE WARP when "double 1 or double 6 rolled". Note this does not say dice result of 2 or 12 so modifiers do not effect this rule
Waaagh! Energy however means they also suffer PERILS OF THE WARP when the result is 12 or more, this is after modiers have been applied. so a 6+4 =10 +3 from 30 boys and the result is 13, which means perils.
I feel like you missed one important question to answer. that or i didnt understand it.
What happens if you get a roll of 8, add +3 which is a roll of 11 which is not a peril and was added due to your boys, but then you add +1 due to scorched git bones? Do you then peril? Because what set off the peril was a from scorched git bones, not the waaagh ability
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vineheart01 wrote: yeah thats something i seriously hope they remove.
Dumb enough our psykers are tissuepaper but theyre self-nuking when not a single other faction has a bonus to psyker tests that causes perils.
I get it, its thematic that theyre tapping into an unstable Waaaagh! energy, but gameplay wise its fething stupid.
true. i hope something happens that means i dont need to feel super scared every time i cast an ability.
with git bones it says you "can" so you get a choice to add +1 to the result,
i thought i covered it with this part , you can choose to add +1 and in doing so choose to perils for an weirdboy suicide bomb lol or choose not to
ah right. thank you.
But then again i guess why the F would you choose to peril anyway. Its kind of a stupid question i asked. I guess it was only relevant before i knew you could choose to add +1 from git bones after you've thrown your dies
because perils inflicts mortal wounds on those around you if it kills you "If PSYKER unit destroyed, every other unit within 6" suffers D3 mortal wounds."
so potentially a super smite d6 mortals + another d3 mortals from perils on a nearby enemy - if your gonna die anyway this could be worth it in some circumstances - you also have to take into account deny the witch from your opponent- he might roll 11 for example
I do agree that Weirdboyz shouldn't suffer perils on a 12+, at most make them suffer 1 mortal wound after the psychic power has been resolved. So there's still a downside but it won't be like they'll be down to 1W after the spell is casted. I'm also shocked that Weirdboyz don't have a built in invuln. tbh, given their points cost and fragility. At least a 5+ invuln WAAAGH! field save or something, given that they don't have access to any kind of armour.
It's not like a 5++ is going to save a weird boy from anything
They are essentially just herded into battle by the orks without any gear because they are ticking timebombs and they want them to go off roughly into the enemies direction. They can't really be compared to librarians or farseers.
Jidmah wrote: It's not like a 5++ is going to save a weird boy from anything
They are essentially just herded into battle by the orks without any gear because they are ticking timebombs and they want them to go off roughly into the enemies direction. They can't really be compared to librarians or farseers.
sure lorewise. But gameplay wise why would you throw your psyker in to the thick of it. To hope that he dies from a peril and explodes?
Lorewise actually i was never under the impression that they threw weirdboys at the enemy with the intention of exploding on them. As i understand it, they still kept their distance, they just used them as psychic bombardments when the waaagh energy level became too high and the excess energy had to be.. released, preferably on the enemy. which probably came in the form of a massive psychic blast or a psychic vomit.
They could add some weird function that makes ork psychic powers more powerful when you peril, however, you only take a single mortal wound from it.
Jidmah wrote: It's not like a 5++ is going to save a weird boy from anything
They are essentially just herded into battle by the orks without any gear because they are ticking timebombs and they want them to go off roughly into the enemies direction. They can't really be compared to librarians or farseers.
To some extent I agree, but I do think gameplay wise they should have some level of protection that isn't reliant on relics to provide them so they can be up front with the ladz or other units without having to worry about snipers or other character targetting abilities getting past terrain in some way. Especially since we don't have any weirdboy set up on bikes or jump packs like Farseers/Librarians do, it would at least offset how slow they are and their expensive base cost.
I'd also be fine with them just making them cheaper as a spam option, maybe even a gaggle of 1-2 Weirdboyz per slot? I'm fine with quantity of over quality.
Glasshammer and explosively unreliable do feel like the proper archetype for an ork psyker. I wouldn't be surprised if the weirdboyz don't change much in the new edition. They are decent enough as is IMO.
cody.d. wrote: Glasshammer and explosively unreliable do feel like the proper archetype for an ork psyker. I wouldn't be surprised if the weirdboyz don't change much in the new edition. They are decent enough as is IMO.
they should have 2 psychic powers and be able to deny 2 psychic powers by standard. Many factions have several psykers so they dont need to care, but we usually only run one psyker so we do care. Its almost mandatory at this point to spend 1 CP on warphead if you run a weirdboy.
Their rooster of spells is also terrible. They dont even have a "click and damage" psychic power targeting a single person, they only have things that are good against large units, as well as smite that we also cant target. For an ork psyker meant to spill psychic vomit on people, they sure dont do a lot of damage. They should have more offensive spells that does damage.
cody.d. wrote: Glasshammer and explosively unreliable do feel like the proper archetype for an ork psyker. I wouldn't be surprised if the weirdboyz don't change much in the new edition. They are decent enough as is IMO.
they should have 2 psychic powers and be able to deny 2 psychic powers by standard. Many factions have several psykers so they dont need to care, but we usually only run one psyker so we do care. Its almost mandatory at this point to spend 1 CP on warphead if you run a weirdboy.
Their rooster of spells is also terrible. They dont even have a "click and damage" psychic power targeting a single person, they only have things that are good against large units, as well as smite that we also cant target. For an ork psyker meant to spill psychic vomit on people, they sure dont do a lot of damage. They should have more offensive spells that does damage.
I'm not sure if i'd call the ork spell list terrible. 3 of our spells will find uses in many, many lists. A reposition spell, a unit buff spell and a character buff spell. All of which very good. The Klan spells added in later were also fairly good, like good enough to shape a battle plan good.
In all likelihood the warphead will become a points upgrade, maybe we'll get lucky and the base weirdboy will get a bit cheaper, who knows. Hopefully Roar of gork will be dropped and get the direct damage spell you mentioned, I can't disagree that eadbanger and krunch are just too situational to be of use. Not sure if I ever cast either to be honest. But overall I'd still call the spell list good to great, every spell list gets a few stinkers.
Jidmah wrote: It's not like a 5++ is going to save a weird boy from anything
They are essentially just herded into battle by the orks without any gear because they are ticking timebombs and they want them to go off roughly into the enemies direction. They can't really be compared to librarians or farseers.
sure lorewise. But gameplay wise why would you throw your psyker in to the thick of it. To hope that he dies from a peril and explodes?
Not just perils, some of them just explode because they overload. Up till 7th edition, you didn't even have any control over what powers the weirdboy would use each turn, you had a d6 table and he would randomly cast one of the powers - with 'ead banger literally being his head exploding. Ork psykers have never been as powerful or reliable as they have been in 8th or 9th. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, I'm quite glad that the weird boy finally stopped being a joke character, but expecting him to be a super-reliable super-durable ork farseer equivalent kind of misses the point.
Lorewise actually i was never under the impression that they threw weirdboys at the enemy with the intention of exploding on them. As i understand it, they still kept their distance, they just used them as psychic bombardments when the waaagh energy level became too high and the excess energy had to be.. released, preferably on the enemy. which probably came in the form of a massive psychic blast or a psychic vomit.
You got the right idea. If you look closely at the model, you see the gretchin using chains to point the weird boy in the right direction, it's not like the ork have any control over what the weird boy is doing beyond that.
They could add some weird function that makes ork psychic powers more powerful when you peril, however, you only take a single mortal wound from it.
Or something.
Honestly, I would be glad if they would just fix the psychic powers which currently aren't so hot and add "overcharge" abilities like you see on visions or da krunch to more of them, rewarding you for taking risks.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Beardedragon wrote: Its almost mandatory at this point to spend 1 CP on warphead if you run a weirdboy.
I agree on that, warp head should just go back to being a points upgrade like master librarian.
Two denies though? That's pretty much reserved for master tier psykers. You have got to accept that orks are going to be weaker in some areas than other armies.
Jidmah while the farseer should be better than the ork wierdboy it should also reflect it in the points. a wierdboy imo is not really worth the 75 points and a farseer is a bargin at 115. that said simply removing the wierdboy gettign a perils on a 12+ would probably imo make it more in line.
farseer has a 4++, can cast and deny 2 powers and has a weapon that always wounds on a 2+ heck for some reason they even have one more wound than the wierdboy. the farseer getting to reroll one or both dice is amazing as is the ork +3 but i find my wierdboys die to perils more often than not
Do we miss the days of indirect sniper fire? Good ol' eliminators.
Weirdboys definitely need a boost of some kind. Cast 1, deny 1, and basically just blow themselves up if you actually cast a lot of powers.
Can definitely be awkward to use. I get fluff but they gotta rein in some of the blowing up stuff if they want us to actually cast psychic powers after it takes a wound.
G00fySmiley wrote: Jidmah while the farseer should be better than the ork wierdboy it should also reflect it in the points. a wierdboy imo is not really worth the 75 points and a farseer is a bargin at 115. that said simply removing the wierdboy gettign a perils on a 12+ would probably imo make it more in line.
farseer has a 4++, can cast and deny 2 powers and has a weapon that always wounds on a 2+ heck for some reason they even have one more wound than the wierdboy. the farseer getting to reroll one or both dice is amazing as is the ork +3 but i find my wierdboys die to perils more often than not
Can't argue with that. I think 75 points is legacy from an edition past when everyone was spamming smite and could bring 9 weird boyz. It could probably drop to 50 without breaking anything, and 20 points for the warphead.
Beardedragon wrote: two denies? oh well one deny then. I was under the impression that those with 2 spells to cast could usually deny 2 abilities as well.
My bad
Nah, when you search wahapedia for "deny two" almost everything that pops up are named characters. Only very few generic psykers can do that, and most of them are from armies with strong psykers.
cody.d. wrote: Glasshammer and explosively unreliable do feel like the proper archetype for an ork psyker. I wouldn't be surprised if the weirdboyz don't change much in the new edition. They are decent enough as is IMO.
they should have 2 psychic powers and be able to deny 2 psychic powers by standard. Many factions have several psykers so they dont need to care, but we usually only run one psyker so we do care. Its almost mandatory at this point to spend 1 CP on warphead if you run a weirdboy.
Their rooster of spells is also terrible. They dont even have a "click and damage" psychic power targeting a single person, they only have things that are good against large units, as well as smite that we also cant target. For an ork psyker meant to spill psychic vomit on people, they sure dont do a lot of damage. They should have more offensive spells that does damage.
I'm not sure if i'd call the ork spell list terrible. 3 of our spells will find uses in many, many lists. A reposition spell, a unit buff spell and a character buff spell. All of which very good. The Klan spells added in later were also fairly good, like good enough to shape a battle plan good.
In all likelihood the warphead will become a points upgrade, maybe we'll get lucky and the base weirdboy will get a bit cheaper, who knows. Hopefully Roar of gork will be dropped and get the direct damage spell you mentioned, I can't disagree that eadbanger and krunch are just too situational to be of use. Not sure if I ever cast either to be honest. But overall I'd still call the spell list good to great, every spell list gets a few stinkers.
True. terrible is a big word but next to warpath, da jump and fist of gork, the rest are usually not picked in competitive games. Visions in da smoke is great but locked behind a faction, same for maniacle seizures (or how ever the F you spell it), and i guess gleaming armor has uses (if you wanted to play bad moon that is).
If these abilities werent clan locked i'd be more interesting. But im still a bit bothered that Ork psykers are such support units rather than what they're meant to be in the lore. Psychic bombardment units is what they were meant to be. What happened to the mortal wounds? where is our damage spells? I feel like ork psykers should have a focus on damage daeling abilities more than support abilities. Of course i dont mind having support abilities if they were interesting and updated, but it fits more with the lore that they would have more damage abilities, and less support abilities. Da Krunch seem to be a good ability but only usable versus horde factions, which i rarely face off against. It has a charge value of 8 though, which is steep if you dont run several boys and when you do that, you start entering the murky waters of increased peril chance. I suppose thats how its meant to be but still.
Also whats up with bullcharge? Why does it give you a minimum of 7? Why not just add 2 to your charge or something. How often do you fail 2inch charges as orks? Adding 2" to your charge would be amazing. getting a minimum of 7 when you are already on average rolling 8, is kind of meh.
Bull charge is a great power. You are removing luck from a 7 inch charge. It also ignores stuff like woods, which add -2" to a charge, and there are various other debuffs addable by armies (like Deathguard, Custodes...).
Overall though the psychic trees of Orks just don't compare to other armies. Whether or not you think they should, Da Jump is really the primary clutch power. Warpath is usually not needed (Orks get plenty of attacks), Fists is overkill again (we get plenty of attacks on characters we care about now with stuff like Boss bike +1A, Da Biggest boss +1A).
The clan specific powers are super niche. Like visions is great... but it'd be nice if I could get it on Deathskulls, not evil suns, which are generally a CC focused army, not a shooting one.
Maniacal is solid although sticking your weirdboy close to the enemy is a recipe for it to get sniped. And a lot of deathskull armies are mech, not infantry based, so it's an unreliable cast.
tulun wrote: Bull charge is a great power. You are removing luck from a 7 inch charge. It also ignores stuff like woods, which add -2" to a charge, and there are various other debuffs addable by armies (like Deathguard, Custodes...).
Overall though the psychic trees of Orks just don't compare to other armies. Whether or not you think they should, Da Jump is really the primary clutch power. Warpath is usually not needed (Orks get plenty of attacks), Fists is overkill again (we get plenty of attacks on characters we care about now with stuff like Boss bike +1A, Da Biggest boss +1A).
The clan specific powers are super niche. Like visions is great... but it'd be nice if I could get it on Deathskulls, not evil suns, which are generally a CC focused army, not a shooting one.
Maniacal is solid although sticking your weirdboy close to the enemy is a recipe for it to get sniped. And a lot of deathskull armies are mech, not infantry based, so it's an unreliable cast.
i would absolutely love it if visions was in the deathskulls rooster. It always felt out of place for me on evil sunz.
But i dont think Bull Charge is a great power. Ive never used it, and ive failed only a very very small amount of 7 inch charges. Sure its horrific when it happens, but with the free reroll of one or all die cast, its usually never a problem.
Thats why i would prefer to just get +2" to my charge instead.
But i dont think Bull Charge is a great power. Ive never used it, and ive failed only a very very small amount of 7 inch charges. Sure its horrific when it happens, but with the free reroll of one or all die cast, its usually never a problem.
Thats why i would prefer to just get +2" to my charge instead.
Don' t let your selective memory mess the statistic. Bull Charge in greentide list is great to charge over the Difficult Ground giving you +2 to charge. This is 9” charge and we everybody knows, how tricky such charge is.
And if you have a right 9th ed terraint, there will be a difficult ground in the way for your 30 boyz squad pretty sure once a game at least.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Btw. are you also such lazy to think about new secondaries, because we will have to do i again in 4-6 weeks because of the new codex? I've read it today and mehhhh…. I'm too lazy to think about the new tricks because of month or two… there will be holidays meanwhile… pfff
I think the issue with our 'bad' powers is more that they're just kind of redundant due to baked in stuff the faction already has. A guaranteed 7" charge sounds awesome and would probably be scooped in in other factions, but we're probably charging a minimum of 8" already. Same as Warpath, we've already been awesome at drowning things in dice and often more attacks is overkill.
As far as secondaries go, I'm not bothering to look at those or make any changes to my list until the new book is out. I'm in a lull as far as games go, so I'm not going to faff about with it. Except Kill Tanks, I'm scheming about Kill Tanks again.
Vineheart01 wrote: BUT, most people wont have the ideal weapons to do that. they will still be kitted to deal with marines unless the boy swarm/snagga swarm becomes lethal.
Thats the whole reason boyz are even remotely viable right now, not enough guns to get through the wounds. At T5, now a 1/6th of those attacks suddenly failed up front. Unless theyre sporting multiple aggressor type rains of firepower, its enough to really be a problem.
Pretty much depends on how efficient they are priced. If theyre cheap enough the meta may shift to deal with them and theyre just "decent", but if it doesnt shift....fun fun time
Previously 1 squad of aggressors could easily wipe out multiple boy squads before they got anywhere, now they need help to do the same damage and generally aggressors are the only thing marines use for chaff clearing. And they dont spam them.
Technically the plasma flyboy gits (i always forget what theyre called) are chaff clearing because for some dumb reason they got blast on 2x 1d3 guns, but theyre also expensive enough where if theyre taking out boyz LOL
Last edition, 3 aggressors could fire 72 shots at BS3+ for 48 hits, 24 wounds and 20 dead boyz in 1 turn. Thats a 135pt unit killing 160pts of infantry in a single turn of shooting. Now after their nerf which according to a lot of Marine players on these forums made aggressors unplayable, those 3 aggressors are only capable of 36 shots, 24 hits, 12 wounds and 10 dead Orkz a turn, or a return on investment of 80pts in 1 shooting phase. Don't you wish our shooting units averaged a 60% return on investment every shooting phase without any buffs?
I played a tournament this week, didn't place sadly, but did go 2 Wins / 1 loss, and the only loss I had was against the guy who won the event and was running Dark Eldar, Ynnari and Eldar. In all 3 games, my opponents had the tools to utterly destroy 30-60 boyz a turn with little effort. And this was despite the fact that all 3 lists had significantly more anti-tank weapons than anti-infantry. Hell, one game my opponent had 30 infantry with S5 weaponry, everything else was S6+.
Key points from that tournament were that
1: Boyz have no durability in this current meta even when they face anti-tank lists just because of how piss poor they have aged between 7th and 9th. Going up 33% in price but gaining basically zero durability and only gaining what? DDD and Base S4 instead of just on the charge? If a boyz list wins its because hes somehow overwhelming his opponents weapons. If they get the T5 bonus and no price increase, they won't break the meta, they will just become harder to shift and will likely see more competitive play but not broken like how i spent 10 years seeing like 2 Dark Eldar Players but we had 4 at this tournament i just went to
and
2: Orkz bounce off most targets. I was able to get Boyz into combat with a T7 2+ save vehicle at borderline full strength, Even if you magically get all 30 boyz into CC and into range to swing you get 120 attacks (which sounds like a lot until you think of how broken some shooting units have become) Those 120 attacks equal 80 hits, and against T5+ that is only 26 wounds. Against a 3+ thats 9ish wounds, against 2+ its 4ish. Giving Orkz -1AP is great, but it won't do much in the current meta because everyone has great saves, invuln saves, FNP saves or a mechanic which ignores the first AP of weapons. If you somehow get a mob of boyz into CC it should be devastating, not lackluster. Against a Squad of bog standard Marine Tacticals you are likely only getting 15-20 boyz into CC, but even again at 30 its 120 attacks, 80 hits, 40 wounds and 13 dmg which turns into 6.5 dead Marines. THAT IS IT! 240pts of Close combat troops manage to kill 117ish pts of Tac Marines. That -1AP turns that into 10 Dead Marines which is a lot closer to what it should be.
With all of that said, unless ork boyz are getting even more buffs that haven't been leaked yet, I just don't see a reason for them to go up any points. The problem being is that I have seen in several different forums and groups, players theorizing that Boyz have to be anywhere from 10-15ppm with the buffs they are receiving. I am legitimately worried GW will screw the points up and ruin boyz for anywhere from the 2 week (I think?) FAQ quick fix to 1 year.
tulun wrote: +2" charge is better ofc, especially with deep strikers. But it doesn't mean bull charge is *bad*.
At least it niches well in the popular Goff list.
well. ive never used it, and have never had use for it. When using my goff army of 90 boys i find it better to use warpath and da jump. I can always throw Warpath on my Mega Nobz before throwing those guys in instead of boys if i want to.
But again, in my last 5 games i can maybe recall failing 1 7 or below inch charge, which was my warboss on warbike needing a 6 to get in range of a knight.
Which sucked a lot. (and it was a deathskulls army) But i feel like i get a lot more value out of warpath whether i throw it on boys or my favorite, on Mega Nobz doesnt matter. Bullcharge seems situational, +1 attack seem to be good value to me. The sheer amount of hits if you throw it on a group of boyz will make them even dangerous to T8 models when you wound on 5s with skarboyz.
Edit: i did actually fail a charge 2 matches ago as well but i think i needed an 8 back then. Bull Charge would be better value and something id consider taking if it was a guaranteed 8" charge, not 7. 7 seems too low to me. I do see the value of it, but i dont see why i wouldnt go for warpath instead. but then again, ive never really played competitively as ive only played warhammer with 2k armies for like 9 months
G00fySmiley wrote: Jidmah while the farseer should be better than the ork wierdboy it should also reflect it in the points. a wierdboy imo is not really worth the 75 points and a farseer is a bargin at 115. that said simply removing the wierdboy gettign a perils on a 12+ would probably imo make it more in line.
farseer has a 4++, can cast and deny 2 powers and has a weapon that always wounds on a 2+ heck for some reason they even have one more wound than the wierdboy. the farseer getting to reroll one or both dice is amazing as is the ork +3 but i find my wierdboys die to perils more often than not
Can't argue with that. I think 75 points is legacy from an edition past when everyone was spamming smite and could bring 9 weird boyz. It could probably drop to 50 without breaking anything, and 20 points for the warphead.
i agree, but personally i would prefer the cost of the pain boy to drop aswell, weirdboy + painboy to heal the perils costs 140 - thats way too much to be anything other than a niche tactic- especially when you consider it might kill the weirdboy on a 1.
the combined painboy/weirdboy combo should be equivalent to a farseer cost at most
I dunno, I think visions suits evil sunz. For a faction obsessed with going fast it would make sense if vehicles have almost a holy connotation for them. Seizures is a great spell because it works with so much of the ork roster. I adore using it with my Killtank list because it improves the dakka version and makes the CCWs a bit more threatening. Often the -1 to hit the enemy suffers is just a nice piece of icing on the cake. And it doesn't need LOS which is pretty sweet in a lotta cases.
Secondaries will be interesting. They could be dumb and useless, they could utilize grots a bunch, they could be damn near auto take because GW didn't think them through. Still wish our box/book thing came out with the cadians, feels like that week's preorders is a bit thin.
Beardedragon wrote: But i dont think Bull Charge is a great power. Ive never used it, and ive failed only a very very small amount of 7 inch charges. Sure its horrific when it happens, but with the free reroll of one or all die cast, its usually never a problem.
Well it's about 15% times or so you fail that.
But the groovy part is you ignore the difficult terrain then. And decent board has some of that around as well. 9" chage is much more failable. 42% to be more accurate.
Maniacal Seizures is extremely powerful, but unreliable. If it's going to stay and trukk/wagon boyz lists become good for deathskulls it may be devastating.
At the moment it's fun to play but it doesn't work everytime so it's best for casual games.
Bull Charge is a solid alternative to Warpath or Da Jump in goffs greentides. I don't play goffs, but personally I'd choose Bull Charge and Warpath for a goff warphead. Da Jump in my experience it's become too easy to counter with the smaller but more "terrain dense" board, and always had little value after turn 2 anyway.
Beardedragon wrote: But i dont think Bull Charge is a great power. Ive never used it, and ive failed only a very very small amount of 7 inch charges. Sure its horrific when it happens, but with the free reroll of one or all die cast, its usually never a problem.
Well it's about 15% times or so you fail that.
But the groovy part is you ignore the difficult terrain then. And decent board has some of that around as well. 9" chage is much more failable. 42% to be more accurate.
that is true, and i think part of the reason i dont give a damn about bull charge is exactly that my group tends to rarely play with large craters that would give me minus to my move or charge. Sure there can be pipes and such but i tend to be able to sling shot my blobs around that.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Blackie wrote: Maniacal Seizures is extremely powerful, but unreliable. If it's going to stay and trukk/wagon boyz lists become good for deathskulls it may be devastating.
At the moment it's fun to play but it doesn't work everytime so it's best for casual games.
Bull Charge is a solid alternative to Warpath or Da Jump in goffs greentides. I don't play goffs, but personally I'd choose Bull Charge and Warpath for a goff warphead. Da Jump in my experience it's become too easy to counter with the smaller but more "terrain dense" board, and always had little value after turn 2 anyway.
i play Goff hordes often. Da Jump is invaluable for me. Sure there are many times where da jump is less useful but for 90 boys and a bunch of Mega Nobz with Mek Gunz, it seems like a really really good mobility tool even if its just for reaching an objective. But mostly its to set up charges on turn 1 if i see an opening that makes sense.
The reason warpath is sort of meh in Goff tide lists is that the Goff units you're taking already get so many attacks.
Like, Skarboys will have 3, 4 at 20+, and 5 with ghaz, with exploding 6s, and re-rolling 1s. Warpath is just overload. To keep this in mind, every 2nd boy adds an attack with exploding 6s basically (so 30 boys is already +15 attacks, assuming all get to attack).
Mega Nobs are in a similar situation -- 4 base attacks, 5 with ghaz nearby, exploding 6s, re-roll 1s.
1 extra attack on ghaz or whatever is fine but not really that clutch.
Keep in mind for bull charge it's a 7 on the die.. which technically is an 8.00000000" charge, as you succeed if you end up within 1". So if you get your models within 8" charge of any unit, regardless of strats, terrain, spells on them, they make it.
Movement wins games more so than making your already high attack numbers even bigger.
tulun wrote: The reason warpath is sort of meh in Goff tide lists is that the Goff units you're taking already get so many attacks.
Like, Skarboys will have 3, 4 at 20+, and 5 with ghaz, with exploding 6s, and re-rolling 1s. Warpath is just overload. To keep this in mind, every 2nd boy adds an attack with exploding 6s basically (so 30 boys is already +15 attacks, assuming all get to attack).
Mega Nobs are in a similar situation -- 4 base attacks, 5 with ghaz nearby, exploding 6s, re-roll 1s.
1 extra attack on ghaz or whatever is fine but not really that clutch.
Keep in mind for bull charge it's a 7 on the die.. which technically is an 8.00000000" charge, as you succeed if you end up within 1". So if you get your models within 8" charge of any unit, regardless of strats, terrain, spells on them, they make it.
Movement wins games more so than making your already high attack numbers even bigger.
But ghaz moves around in one part of the map, not the entire part. So the Boyz on the left side, when ghaz is on the right side wouldnt be buffed by ghaz. Unless im meant to slam my entire army down one side? Ive been fighting against thousand sons for some time, with 3 defilers and a lot of trickery, and rather often, using warpath on my killsaw mega nobz (4 of them) that +1 attack is great for dealing with said defilers and they managed to wreck magnus in one turn due to poor positioning from my opponents side. giving +1 to my boys when they charge at a defiler also kind of turns them in to a soft anti T8 unit as well as ive taken off half the wounds of a defiler. It felt like warpath did me good in such situations.
And 7 on the die as i see it, isnt technically an 8" charge, as if that was the case, any deepstrikes would only need 8. you need more than 7 to get an 8 inch charge but i think i get your point.
But how do you guys use ghaz goff hordes? When i use ghaz, my Big mek with KFF tends to be my warlord, with Follow me ladz, so i have 2 characters that can advance and charge boys. Then Ghaz is followed by 60 boys, painboy and weirdboy and usually 4 out of my 8 mega nobz. my Big mek with KFF , then advances and charges 4 mega nobz, and 30 boys. My big mek tends to be somewhat in the middle of the board of my deployment zone to begin with, so i can pay 3CP if i have to, to increase my KFF aura to 18 inches. it sometimes pays off, sometimes not. but then he just moves to the left and ghaz goes right.
I see that Mega Nobz do best by being focused near ghaz but im afraid of opening up my left side if i do that. theres nothing to deal with T8 if all MANZ are on the right side. Except of course, for Mek Gunz.
Am i meant to focus Mek Gunz on the left side then instead? right now my Mek Gunz just focus on everything they can get their hands on thats a dangerous target, and screen out the backline from deepstrikes and holds objectives.
And of course mind you i dont usually play with -2 charges terrain so bull charge never was a thing i much really needed to worry about.
Tulun is correct. An 8.00" charge requires an 7 on the dice. A 8.01" charge requires a 8 on the dice. Strategic reserves state that your units "cannot be set up within 9" of any enemy models." This means that your models must be set up 9.01" or more away from the enemy models. This makes it a 9" charge.
I also get a lot of use out of warpath in goff tide lists. Ghaz is not always around to buff, and you often can't get all 30 boyz into combat. Every attack counts, especially against 2+ saves and units that you need to finish off (necrons). As beardedragon also stated, it's also an amazing buff on meganobz. I also use it on nobz in my evil suns horde list when I da jump them in round 1.
Never in any situation would you waste warpath on Ghaz. If you find yourself in that situation more than once, you need to bring fists of gork instead.
BDBurrow wrote: Tulun is correct. An 8.00" charge requires an 7 on the dice. A 8.01" charge requires a 8 on the dice. Strategic reserves state that your units "cannot be set up within 9" of any enemy models." This means that your models must be set up 9.01" or more away from the enemy models. This makes it a 9" charge.
I also get a lot of use out of warpath in goff tide lists. Ghaz is not always around to buff, and you often can't get all 30 boyz into combat. Every attack counts, especially against 2+ saves and units that you need to finish off (necrons). As beardedragon also stated, it's also an amazing buff on meganobz. I also use it on nobz in my evil suns horde list when I da jump them in round 1.
Never in any situation would you waste warpath on Ghaz. If you find yourself in that situation more than once, you need to bring fists of gork instead.
it is amazing how difficult it is to explain that to people they will constantly deep strike 9 inches away then say they need an 8 inch charge. or in some cases set them up the walk over to measure and declare they have a 7 or so inch charge until I point out they deep struck that turn so cannot have been placed that closely then they will always pull the "ok i need an 8..." and you have to explain why its a 9 9.0001 minus 8 is still 1.0001 meaning it is not within an inch
BDBurrow wrote: Tulun is correct. An 8.00" charge requires an 7 on the dice. A 8.01" charge requires a 8 on the dice. Strategic reserves state that your units "cannot be set up within 9" of any enemy models." This means that your models must be set up 9.01" or more away from the enemy models. This makes it a 9" charge.
I also get a lot of use out of warpath in goff tide lists. Ghaz is not always around to buff, and you often can't get all 30 boyz into combat. Every attack counts, especially against 2+ saves and units that you need to finish off (necrons). As beardedragon also stated, it's also an amazing buff on meganobz. I also use it on nobz in my evil suns horde list when I da jump them in round 1.
Never in any situation would you waste warpath on Ghaz. If you find yourself in that situation more than once, you need to bring fists of gork instead.
it is amazing how difficult it is to explain that to people they will constantly deep strike 9 inches away then say they need an 8 inch charge. or in some cases set them up the walk over to measure and declare they have a 7 or so inch charge until I point out they deep struck that turn so cannot have been placed that closely then they will always pull the "ok i need an 8..." and you have to explain why its a 9 9.0001 minus 8 is still 1.0001 meaning it is not within an inch
to be fair, it was only recently FAQ'ed that you need to measure the 9 inches horizontally when deepstriking. Meaning if you had a large building, 10 inches tall, you could deepstrike to the bottom. but doing so since you can hit 5 inches upwards, meant you wouldnt need a very large charge. essentially in such a case you only needed a 4 inch charge. technically speaking. So there actually were cases where you could deepstrike and need less than 9 inches to charge.
But they did FAQ that.
In my case i just forgot the actual wording, ive always gone by the idea, however, that i needed 9 inches and more to deepstrike.
To clarify, warpath is not a bad power -- it just is a bit redundant on Goffs especially, who already have buckets of ways of generating more attacks via their clan trait, Ghaz, and re-roll 1s. It's better on non-Goffs as they have less ways of doing this.
If you're throwing skarboys into 2+ save models you're already just accepting the fact that bouncing off is probable. Warpath is not going to save you there.
If I were to take 1 weirdboy, it would typically be Da Jump + Clan power. If I were to take 2, it would be Da Jump + warpath (I'd rather redundancy on Da jump, as the weirdboy can't be everywhere).
Fists of gork is totally useless. Bad range, and I'd rather the utility of Warpath at the cost of pushing my already high attack characters. Like, a Biker boss already shreds and can fight on death after fighting (currently anyway).
But in the grand scheme of things of the 3 popular clans, I'd rate da jump and their clan psychic all higher than warpath.
Warpath is only worth it on meganobz in addition to the +1 damage strat. It is NOT a good spell. I agree with tulun, we just have da jump and klan specifics. The rest just ranges from bad to meh
Well. as i said, ive been fighting a lot of Thousand sons as of lately, with 3 defilers, some rubric marines, tons of terminators and some daemons + magnus.
I cant really avoid hitting enemies with a save value of +2 except for maybe the daemons and defilers that has a save value of 3 i believe. both rubric and terminators will have a save value of +2. Especially because of the 'all is dust' ability they have. So Warpath adding those extra attacks does help me.
And as im not sure how you get the ghaz buffs on the boyz on the left side, if he's on the right side. I play against a lot of high save value armies, like custodies, Thousand Sons and death guard, so maybe thats why i want those extra attacks.
they help me out. Sure if i fought craftworld it might be completely redundant, but against the meta i face off against the extra attacks sure help.
And to clarify, i use warpath mainly on Mega Nobz, not Boys. But it does depend alot on what i want to do during my turn. Sometimes if im unsure if my boys will be able to fully kill the enemy then ill throw warpath on those. Due to casting ranges, its easier for my weirdboy to put warpath on units than it is for Ghaz to do the same. So i can buff my hordes even if ghaz isnt near them i find that to be a decent thing to be able to do.
I understand you guys points that it might be excessive, like if you fight eldar and such, why would i need more attacks? I guess a lot of armies you could face, that +1 attack might be completely redundant actually. But against armies that has a lot of defensive abilities or high save values, which for some reason i fight a lot, i find it to be a good pick. warpath that is. +1 attack also means i can make longer congolines, since i need fewer people to tag the enemy to deal good damage. so in that sense, warpath aids in mobility. it frees up boys to be somewhere else and its not as important to get most boys in to combat. that leaves the rest for screening or, yea.. congolines.
Yeah warpath on a large mob of meganobz is solid, no debate here BTW I don’t know why but I have real high hopes for Mega nobz in the next codex. I hope we will be able to give them some durability
so i want to beat him just to bring him down a peg 
that maybe he was referring in part to mechanized orks.
