Now imagine that someone has increased the price of the ball. And the ball(s) you've spent years collecting, saving up for and painting isn't/aren't legal. Now you have to spend more money to get the "correct" ball(s).
Well, man up and get some balls!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Lol, you got to admit you walked into that one.
Seriously fan boy?
Clearly your insults make everything right with the world....
Now imagine that someone has increased the price of the ball. And the ball(s) you've spent years collecting, saving up for and painting isn't/aren't legal. Now you have to spend more money to get the "correct" ball(s).
Well, man up and get some balls!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Lol, you got to admit you walked into that one.
Seriously fan boy?
Clearly your insults make everything right with the world....
With the uptick in personal attacks being levied against people issuing legitimate criticism (i.e. "whinging"), I keep getting this image in my head.
Seriously, is no complaint valid at this point? It appears that a considerable number of units are to be removed from the codex, but we should just thank our benevolent GW masters for just gracing us with a new codex? Each new model comes with an uptick in price (i.e. the Hydra/Wyvern now sets the highest price for Heavy Support, even though all the other Heavy Support units are *also* dual-purpose). And there are a number of other complaints, some of which are fair and others aren't, but I feel like every complaint is being met with the same non-issue-addressing, take-it-or-leave it attitude.
Conversations are looking more like the trial scene in Idiocracy.
Whinging and moaning™ is the new black. However, it doesn't justify all the backbiting, so why don't we all settle down and think about the game.
Back on topic, Chimaeras were cheap in the 5th edition codex, and naturally people are going to be upset if they go up in price. IDK if the price is justified.
As for the 25 point Power Fist, I can only suppose that GW don't really want the IG to have a lot of them because it would be unfluffy. Maybe use Meltaguns instead.
UlrikDecado wrote: So, you are not playing the game for two years (almost) but are still dancing around and shoving your rage into other peoples faces? Yeah, its the same like penis. I believe you have it, but I dont need to be slapped by it
But, otherwise, I see you as pitiable victim, being out of game for such a time and still needing to fret about it on the internet. You dont play but spend whole days on Dakka telling other people how this and that codex is simply bad and GW is evil? Mate, it sound serious...
Good lord, man! Nowhere, in that rambling, incoherent response were you close to making a coherent and correct assessment. I award you no points and may God have mercy on your soul.
I'm not "raging". I don't think I have inappropriately strong emotions about the topic at all. I've been polite, not resorted to ridiculous hyperbole or called anyone who disagreed with me inane names, or even hit the swear filter. To call my comments "raging" is to rob the word of all its value and meaning. Nowhere did I say that "GW is evil". Nowhere did I say that the "codex is simply bad". I merely stated that I was unhappy with the specific choices they'd made, and the models they had designed. Your accusations reveal far more about your own state of mind than mine, friend. As does your crude attempt at a genitals-based comparison. I don't want your pity any more than I appreciate your misbegotten attempts at categorizing me according to some imaginary schema in your head.
Furthermore, it might shock you, but there are other games than just 40k, and this forum, for all its faults, is the best source for Kickstarter and new release news from all kinds of manufacturers. Until such a time that 40k gaming is considered a binding prerequisite to posting here, I will remain a member of this forum, and there isn't a goddamn thing you can do to stop me. And "whole days"? Seriously? It took me all of 10 minutes to write all my replies in this thread, and maybe 15-30 minutes to review it. Hardly a massive expenditure of time.
In closing, let me leave you with this. Bah humbug.
Seriously, is no complaint valid at this point? It appears that a considerable number of units are to be removed from the codex, but we should just thank our benevolent GW masters for just gracing us with a new codex? Each new model comes with an uptick in price (i.e. the Hydra/Wyvern now sets the highest price for Heavy Support, even though all the other Heavy Support units are *also* dual-purpose). And there are a number of other complaints, some of which are fair and others aren't, but I feel like every complaint is being met with the same non-issue-addressing, take-it-or-leave it attitude.
I think it may be too early to complain about specific rules for specific units at this point, as we haven't got an entire 'dex to look at. So, in that light, I think rules complaints may not be entirely valid, since we don't know ALL the new rules, or how they interact with old rules. There may be some OP combination of rules that we don't know about, simply because we haven't seen a full codex yet.
On the other hand, complaints about ugly models and highway-robbery prices are totally valid, because we have pictures of said ugly models and GW's pre-order price list to reference.
And speaking of ugly models, it looks like the IG aren't getting any new sculpts apart from the Hydra/Wyvern. Everything else we've seen (stormtroopers, taurox, ogryns) can be used in a stormtrooper army or an IG army, but the only new model that seems to be IG only is the Hydra/Wyvern. I was worried that something like this would happen when I saw all the new models popping up for the stormtrooper army back in March...
Seriously, is no complaint valid at this point? It appears that a considerable number of units are to be removed from the codex, but we should just thank our benevolent GW masters for just gracing us with a new codex? Each new model comes with an uptick in price (i.e. the Hydra/Wyvern now sets the highest price for Heavy Support, even though all the other Heavy Support units are *also* dual-purpose). And there are a number of other complaints, some of which are fair and others aren't, but I feel like every complaint is being met with the same non-issue-addressing, take-it-or-leave it attitude.
I think it may be too early to complain about specific rules for specific units at this point, as we haven't got an entire 'dex to look at. So, in that light, I think rules complaints may not be entirely valid, since we don't know ALL the new rules, or how they interact with old rules. There may be some OP combination of rules that we don't know about, simply because we haven't seen a full codex yet.
On the other hand, complaints about ugly models and highway-robbery prices are totally valid, because we have pictures of said ugly models and GW's pre-order price list to reference.
And speaking of ugly models, it looks like the IG aren't getting any new sculpts apart from the Hydra/Wyvern. Everything else we've seen (stormtroopers, taurox, ogryns) can be used in a stormtrooper army or an IG army, but the only new model that seems to be IG only is the Hydra/Wyvern. I was worried that something like this would happen when I saw all the new models popping up for the stormtrooper army back in March...
Actually, Ogryns can not be used in a stormtrooper army, iirc.
Kilkrazy wrote: Whinging and moaning™ is the new black. However, it doesn't justify all the backbiting, so why don't we all settle down and think about the game.
Back on topic, Chimaeras were cheap in the 5th edition codex, and naturally people are going to be upset if they go up in price. IDK if the price is justified.
As for the 25 point Power Fist, I can only suppose that GW don't really want the IG to have a lot of them because it would be unfluffy. Maybe use Meltaguns instead.
I don't feel that stating a feeling or opinion is "whinging" just because it runs counter to other's feelings or opinions.
As to the Chimera, I feel it's completely unjustified. Clearly the changes made to the Chimera are to push sales of the Taurox.
That, and the nerf/correction to the Vendetta, aren't a "problem" IMHO. Removing units people have paid good money to use for the sole reason that another company
doesn't make money is what I'm mostly bothered by. FFS the 3 Griffons I own were MADE BY GW.
Seriously, is no complaint valid at this point? It appears that a considerable number of units are to be removed from the codex, but we should just thank our benevolent GW masters for just gracing us with a new codex? Each new model comes with an uptick in price (i.e. the Hydra/Wyvern now sets the highest price for Heavy Support, even though all the other Heavy Support units are *also* dual-purpose). And there are a number of other complaints, some of which are fair and others aren't, but I feel like every complaint is being met with the same non-issue-addressing, take-it-or-leave it attitude.
I think it may be too early to complain about specific rules for specific units at this point, as we haven't got an entire 'dex to look at. So, in that light, I think rules complaints may not be entirely valid, since we don't know ALL the new rules, or how they interact with old rules. There may be some OP combination of rules that we don't know about, simply because we haven't seen a full codex yet.
I'm not really sure how any of that is relevant to having units removed from the codex. While I care about how things interact, that doesn't magically make me forget that things have been removed.
Also, I couldn't care less about OP combinations, that's not what I want, what I want is a diverse codex where there AREN'T uber-monobuild-unbalanced-combos. Looking at the 'nid codex, I don't really care that the Flyrant is awesome when considering the fact my Walkrant sucks and my Raveners suck and my Lictors suck and so on.
And speaking of ugly models, it looks like the IG aren't getting any new sculpts apart from the Hydra/Wyvern. Everything else we've seen (stormtroopers, taurox, ogryns) can be used in a stormtrooper army or an IG army, but the only new model that seems to be IG only is the Hydra/Wyvern. I was worried that something like this would happen when I saw all the new models popping up for the stormtrooper army back in March...
After we'd seen the Taurox, Ogryns, ST and Hydra back several weeks ago I did say I didn't expect to see anything else because most other armies have only gotten 3-4 new plastic kits, often one of which is just a repackage. I'm sure I can go back and find the posts where people were bitching at me because I was expecting to be disappointed way back then, lol.
I still plan on playing with and using my Griffons using the IA rules. I've got too much invested in them monetarily and in time spent painting them to not use them. I'll likely pick up the IA volume at some point to have the rules (and for the fluff and pictures too, to be sure).
The Griffon Heavy Mortar is unique in that it *does* have an actual GW model. Granted, it was discontinued and is now OOP, but the fact remains that they are GW models and not FW models. You just have to get the most current rules for them from Forgeworld.
Both of my Griffons (Viewable in my Gallery for any who might care to look) are the old school GW kits.
We'll see what shakes out in the new codex. So far the only complaint I've got is the (potential) removal of the Artillery units from the codex.
And speaking of ugly models, it looks like the IG aren't getting any new sculpts apart from the Hydra/Wyvern. Everything else we've seen (stormtroopers, taurox, ogryns) can be used in a stormtrooper army or an IG army, but the only new model that seems to be IG only is the Hydra/Wyvern. I was worried that something like this would happen when I saw all the new models popping up for the stormtrooper army back in March...
After we'd seen the Taurox, Ogryns, ST and Hydra back several weeks ago I did say I didn't expect to see anything else because most other armies have only gotten 3-4 new plastic kits, often one of which is just a repackage. I'm sure I can go back and find the posts where people were bitching at me because I was expecting to be disappointed way back then, lol.
It's not even true, anyway, did you miss the horrible Commissar? That's a new sculpt. Of course, you can also use it with the Militarum Tempestus book, which apparently means it "doesn't count" as a new IG sculpt, because of reasons.
alarmingrick wrote: And the ball(s) you've spent years collecting, saving up for and painting isn't/aren't legal.
Why wouldn't they be legal? Will using your old "balls" bring a SWAT-Team down your door?
The concept of legal doesn't really apply to a consensual past-time.
I refuse to engage with you that way Z. You know full well what I mean by legality.
You don't have to engage me. But you know full well that you are only entrapped by your own refusal to engage the opponent across the table, if you think a unit is "illegal", just because it isn't in the latest codex. Really, the only thing holding you back is the fear of asking a simple question.
Heafstaag wrote: Haven't seen this yet, but a poster over on warseer posted the the bullgryn's 'brute shield' gives a 5+ invul save!
Truly the savior of the codex right here. Everything else was justified.
Well, the one pic I've seen of the ogryn with the rumored power maul and brute shield looks pretty good...and ogryns with an inful save sound pretty fun.
best part is that 5++ and power maul come at a bargain of 15 pts making your ogryns only 60 ppm, also, if you order now, you can get get a free set of steak knives
Kirasu wrote: Why was his rebalancing good when they in turn made Terminators an incredibly poor choice?
Please re-read this statement and mine. If I have to reiterate for a third time that I'm not talking about Deathwing as a whole I may just have an aneurysm.
Terminators suck regardless in this edition. The changes made to Belial were justified since in the previous book he was absurdly undercosted.
You can't just look at Belial and go "okay he should cost more" when his ENTIRE purpose for existing was nerfed.
This statement is complete gibberish. He had to cost more because as a single model he was undercosted. A fearless Terminator Captain with TH/SS that makes Termies troops should not be 130, period.
And besides, I'd argue that Deathwing were never nerfed deliberately, just a victim of a changing meta, and a consequence of being buffed was a price increase that amplified the former problem. [/b]
They made him more expensive because of abilities that were good in 5th edition with a codex from 4th edition, yeah that makes sense.
[citation needed]
Deepstrike with no scatter is great in this edition, precision shot didn't exist in 5th edition.
.
AV12 with 6 mid-strength shots for 55 points was about 10 points undercosted anyway, compare it to vehicles from other Codexes, you do not find many things close to it for 55 or less at all, and when you do I bet that they don't get carry capacity as well.
And speaking of ugly models, it looks like the IG aren't getting any new sculpts apart from the Hydra/Wyvern. Everything else we've seen (stormtroopers, taurox, ogryns) can be used in a stormtrooper army or an IG army, but the only new model that seems to be IG only is the Hydra/Wyvern. I was worried that something like this would happen when I saw all the new models popping up for the stormtrooper army back in March...
After we'd seen the Taurox, Ogryns, ST and Hydra back several weeks ago I did say I didn't expect to see anything else because most other armies have only gotten 3-4 new plastic kits, often one of which is just a repackage. I'm sure I can go back and find the posts where people were bitching at me because I was expecting to be disappointed way back then, lol.
It's not even true, anyway, did you miss the horrible Commissar? That's a new sculpt. Of course, you can also use it with the Militarum Tempestus book, which apparently means it "doesn't count" as a new IG sculpt, because of reasons.
Sorry I wasn't counting characters in my tally, forgot to mention that.
But yeah, the Commissar does nothing to buoy my spirits, all it did was make me buy all the old good looking ones before they get removed so I don't have to buy the new ugly arse one, lol.
As soon as I saw the new Commissar I went on the GW site and noticed on the US store the old Commissars were vanishing so jumped in and bought all the ones I don't already have.
alarmingrick wrote: And the ball(s) you've spent years collecting, saving up for and painting isn't/aren't legal.
Why wouldn't they be legal? Will using your old "balls" bring a SWAT-Team down your door?
The concept of legal doesn't really apply to a consensual past-time.
I refuse to engage with you that way Z. You know full well what I mean by legality.
You don't have to engage me. But you know full well that you are only entrapped by your own refusal to engage the opponent across the table, if you think a unit is "illegal", just because it isn't in the latest codex. Really, the only thing holding you back is the fear of asking a simple question.
If you pay this much money on a game and models it would be nice to go anywhere, play with anyone and have everything "fit" without having to jump through hoops, get permission and a different book just to use what you already own. I see what you are saying. Do you see what I am saying?
Just a quick question: Are the Artillery rules/costs in IA1 identical to the ones in the old IG codex? Because if so, there's nothing stopping anyone just using the old codex rules and saying 'these are now FW, but the stats are the same, ok?'
I will say, did anyone else notice that bullgryn are listed as relentless? It makes me wonder if the grenade gauntlet is a heavy or rapidfire weapon. If it isnt, relentless would be rather pointless
Zweischneid wrote: You don't have to engage me. But you know full well that you are only entrapped by your own refusal to engage the opponent across the table, if you think a unit is "illegal", just because it isn't in the latest codex. Really, the only thing holding you back is the fear of asking a simple question.
You can keep repeating your whole "talk about it" nonsense all you like, but the indisputable fact is that many people play 40k as a pickup game in a store, where the expectation is that you follow the normal rules of the game and many people are reluctant to include house rules. And many of us do not like the fact that now we have to negotiate to be allowed to use our army, instead of just showing up and playing a game.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Paradigm wrote: Just a quick question: Are the Artillery rules/costs in IA1 identical to the ones in the old IG codex? Because if so, there's nothing stopping anyone just using the old codex rules and saying 'these are now FW, but the stats are the same, ok?'
The rules are the same, because when they were printed there was no reason to believe that they were anything other than a copy of the codex rules that was included to go along with all of the fluff pages about those tanks.
If you pay this much money on a game and models it would be nice to go anywhere, play with anyone and have everything "fit" without having to jump through hoops, get permission and a different book just to use what you already own. I see what you are saying. Do you see what I am saying?
Yes. In a perfect world. Sure...
But you're living in GW-world, not the perfect world.
If you already have a cool miniature you like to game with, and you aren't living in that perfect world where everything is in the book, would you
a) play with your cool miniatures anyhow, cause it's cool and all it takes is a simple question
b) trash your cool miniature, out of some idealistic crusade to "force" GW into the perfect game that will never exist by your own hobby-self-mortification of insisting on misleading categorizations of "legal".
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Peregrine wrote: . And many of us do not like the fact that now we have to negotiate to be allowed to use our army, instead of just showing up and playing a game.
Exactly. It's the one thing you'll need to change, if you want to have fun in the game.
If you insist on it, 40K will forever be a frustration to you, because 40K is (increasingly too) moving away from this.
alarmingrick wrote: And what happens when that "simple question" is answered with a no, instead of the warm, welcoming yes you envision?
I live in my world, Z.
Have you ever even asked? Genuinely? Friendly? Humbly? Politely?
I have a hard time envisioning the kind of gamer who would say no to that kind of genuinely polite and humble question... especially as we "all" know the mess that is 40K.
Zweischneid wrote: You don't have to engage me. But you know full well that you are only entrapped by your own refusal to engage the opponent across the table, if you think a unit is "illegal", just because it isn't in the latest codex. Really, the only thing holding you back is the fear of asking a simple question.
You can keep repeating your whole "talk about it" nonsense all you like, but the indisputable fact is that many people play 40k as a pickup game in a store, where the expectation is that you follow the normal rules of the game and many people are reluctant to include house rules. And many of us do not like the fact that now we have to negotiate to be allowed to use our army, instead of just showing up and playing a game.
Slightly OT, but I wonder if this is a Regional thing. From what I've seen around the web, pick-up games in store seems to be a lot more common in the USA, whereas over here non-store/private clubs seem more common. This may just be coincidence, but obvioulsly that kind of negotiation would be easier/more likely in a club rather than pick-up setting.
Paradigm wrote: Just a quick question: Are the Artillery rules/costs in IA1 identical to the ones in the old IG codex? Because if so, there's nothing stopping anyone just using the old codex rules and saying 'these are now FW, but the stats are the same, ok?'
The rules are the same, because when they were printed there was no reason to believe that they were anything other than a copy of the codex rules that was included to go along with all of the fluff pages about those tanks.
Cheers. I imagined they would be, but sometimes FW have added/tweaked things, like Autocannons on Chimeras.
alarmingrick wrote:And what happens when that "simple question" is answered with a no, instead of the warm, welcoming yes you envision?
I live in my world, Z.
Then you find someone else to play with. Assuming there are multiple people in the store, I imagine you could find one person reasonable enough to play with FW rules.
alarmingrick wrote: And what happens when that "simple question" is answered with a no, instead of the warm, welcoming yes you envision?
I live in my world, Z.
Have you ever even asked? Genuinely? Friendly? Humbly? Politely?
I have a hard time envisioning the kind of gamer who would say no to that kind of genuinely polite and humble question... especially as we "all" know the mess that is 40K.
I really feel we're at odds, yet on the same side. Can you think of any other games that work the way you are talking about? I don't have a problem asking a question of people I play against. I have a problem with that I have to ask in the first place.
alarmingrick wrote: And what happens when that "simple question" is answered with a no, instead of the warm, welcoming yes you envision?
I live in my world, Z.
Have you ever even asked? Genuinely? Friendly? Humbly? Politely?
I have a hard time envisioning the kind of gamer who would say no to that kind of genuinely polite and humble question... especially as we "all" know the mess that is 40K.
In several years of using a pre-heresy World Eater force ('counts as' Blood Angels) I only had one person refuse to play me, although a couple of times had people blame their defeat on lack of knowing what my units were, and of course a few 'you should use the chaos codex' comment. (Even a 'why aren't they painted like the ones on the box'?! )
You're right, I think the vast majority of people are trusting and welcoming, even in pick-up games where you don't know the opponent. But, a 'no' only has to happen once and it can really deflate you.
I really feel we're at odds, yet on the same side. Can you think of any other games that work the way you are talking about? I don't have a problem asking a question of people I play against. I have a problem with that I have to ask in the first place.
No. I don't know any other game that works that way. Which is why it is such a rare and special thing in 40K that is worth preserving.
For those who don't like to game that way, there are literally thousands of games.
For those who do like to game that way, there really is only 40K.
Glad I got my plastic Baney when I did, 95bucks beats that Knight price of 140bucks! They acknowledge that A-mil are commonly referred to as IG in their codex section.....why not keep the Imperial Guard? Oh wait, that can't be locked down as IP-copyright as it is a real life term used by nations!
AV12 with 6 mid-strength shots for 55 points was about 10 points undercosted anyway, compare it to vehicles from other Codexes, you do not find many things close to it for 55 or less at all, and when you do I bet that they don't get carry capacity as well.
If we're talking undercosted transports, the Chimera definitely isn't it.
Night Scythes are undercosted by about half. At 150 they'd still be a steal.
Wave Serpents cost twice as many points but have 1) better weapons, 2) are fast skimmers, 3) better BS, 4) better armor, 5) Serpent Sheild, the list goes on and on.
The Chimera was OK at 55 points in 6th edition. At 65 points it's an absolute ripoff especially since the typical cargo (Vets) are probably going to 2 Specials per squad.
I really don't see the Chimera change as that bad, to be honest. Sure, it's another 10 points you can't spend elsewhere, but it's not exactly overcosted.
Zweischneid wrote: No. I don't know any other game that works that way. Which is why it is such a rare and special thing in 40K that is worth preserving.
Oh good, this same old nonsense again. I think you are the only person who thinks that "the rules are so utterly broken that you have to negotiate and fix them before you can play the game" is an attribute worth preserving. This is like getting served moldy food in a restaurant and showing up to protest when it's shut down for health violations because "it's a rare thing worth preserving".
Paradigm wrote: I really don't see the Chimera change as that bad, to be honest. Sure, it's another 10 points you can't spend elsewhere, but it's not exactly overcosted.
It is when you compare it to a unit that, for 35 points more, is a BS4 flier with a much better weapon that never kills its passengers when it's destroyed.
Just saying...the last thing the Chimera needed was a points increase.
Paradigm wrote: I really don't see the Chimera change as that bad, to be honest. Sure, it's another 10 points you can't spend elsewhere, but it's not exactly overcosted.
It is when you compare it to a unit that, for 35 points more, is a BS4 flier with a much better weapon that never kills its passengers when it's destroyed.
Just saying...the last thing the Chimera needed was a points increase.
Agreed, but as you yourself just pointed out, that's a case of the Scythe being too cheap, not the Chimera being to expensive. Rather than comparing it to undercosted options like Scythes and Serpents, look at what you actually get with the Chimera.
65 points for AV12 front, 2 good weapons, 5 fire points. I'd say that's fine when compared to transports like Rhinos, Razorbacks, Devilfish, Ghost Arks and just general cost.
The Chimera was well-justified at 55 points. It's cargo is a much lower points squad than what you'd find in a Space Marines, Eldar, Necron, or Ork army. It's primarily to protect a special weapons toting squad and to get scoring units onto objectives, especially since you can't assault ogryns or a command squad out of one.
So while it was good for the points, it wasn't performing the transport function like other army's transports, which are usually to get high points units into the fight quickly.
That said, I will reserve judgement until we see the cost of vehicle upgrades on it. A 10 point bump could be offset if pintle-mounted weapons are 5 points i/o 10, or if extra armor/dozer/HKM are cheaper too.
Paradigm wrote: I really don't see the Chimera change as that bad, to be honest. Sure, it's another 10 points you can't spend elsewhere, but it's not exactly overcosted.
It is when you compare it to a unit that, for 35 points more, is a BS4 flier with a much better weapon that never kills its passengers when it's destroyed.
Just saying...the last thing the Chimera needed was a points increase.
Agreed, but as you yourself just pointed out, that's a case of the Scythe being too cheap, not the Chimera being to expensive. Rather than comparing it to undercosted options like Scythes and Serpents, look at what you actually get with the Chimera.
65 points for AV12 front, 2 good weapons, 5 fire points. I'd say that's fine when compared to transports like Rhinos, Razorbacks, Devilfish, Ghost Arks and just general cost.
It would have been easier (for me anyway) to buy that argument had they not released the reason for the 65 point price tag(Taurox) at the same time.
It's clearly done for the sake of selling more of the new toy.
Paradigm wrote: I really don't see the Chimera change as that bad, to be honest. Sure, it's another 10 points you can't spend elsewhere, but it's not exactly overcosted.
It is when you compare it to a unit that, for 35 points more, is a BS4 flier with a much better weapon that never kills its passengers when it's destroyed.
Just saying...the last thing the Chimera needed was a points increase.
Agreed, but as you yourself just pointed out, that's a case of the Scythe being too cheap, not the Chimera being to expensive. Rather than comparing it to undercosted options like Scythes and Serpents, look at what you actually get with the Chimera.
65 points for AV12 front, 2 good weapons, 5 fire points. I'd say that's fine when compared to transports like Rhinos, Razorbacks, Devilfish, Ghost Arks and just general cost.
It would have been easier (for me anyway) to buy that argument had they not released the reason for the 65 point price tag(Taurox) at the same time.
It's clearly done for the sake of selling more of the new toy.
I totally agree the 65 point chimera is ok with me but everyone knows the only reason it was increased was because of the "short bus."
Mr.Omega wrote: I think the Chimera nerf is being viewed with the sort of tunnel vision people had with Belial's points nerf. Belial was massively undercosted in the previous DA Codex and people cried doom and designer idiocy at his massive points increase, despite the fact that for all his advantages it was entirely justified- the only thing that doesn't make him worthwhile is the fact the playstyle he's associated with is isn't good, frankly.
So what did recosting him accomplish if his playstyle isn't viable other than making it less so?
I mean really, the Razorback is 55 for TLHB, has less armour, less firepower and less carry capacity. Compared to the Rhino, 20 points buys you 6 midstrength long range shots an armour that lets you survive more than a turn on the front.
The Razorback has side hatches, self repair, BS4 and is in an army of super-soldier infantry and not wet noodle infantry.
The Chimera was a bit too cheap, arguably.
At the beginning of 5E, when most other armies were still running 4E or 5E books, perhaps. After 6E, Hull Points, new transport rules, and the new Necron, Eldar, and Tau books? One will notice those Chimera parking lots largely disappeared.
People should stop whinging about smokes and searchlights, both of those are far from mandatory, 95% of the time you'll want to be shooting or exploiting flat out instead, or you'll be behind something like a Leman Russ for a consistent cover save/LOS blockage that renders them effectively moot. Searchlights are 1 pt. Big deal.
Searchlights are used more than ever now that Nightfight is in *EVERY* mission type and not just 1/3rd of games, and Smoke Launchers are always valuable wargear, the Leman Russ tanks don't advance ahead of the chimeras for them to hide behind.
Paying 30-40 points extra army wide will also possibly get balanced out by everything else getting cheaper.
Except...it's not all getting cheaper...? And, as I pointed out earlier, for many players we're not talking about 30-40pts but 3-6x that.
The points cost of most things hasn't leaked so calling doom at this point is idiotic.
And yet you're certain taht everything else will be getting cheaper when we've seen no such evidence aside from Sentinels.
Paradigm wrote: I really don't see the Chimera change as that bad, to be honest. Sure, it's another 10 points you can't spend elsewhere, but it's not exactly overcosted.
It is when you compare it to a unit that, for 35 points more, is a BS4 flier with a much better weapon that never kills its passengers when it's destroyed.
Just saying...the last thing the Chimera needed was a points increase.
Agreed, but as you yourself just pointed out, that's a case of the Scythe being too cheap, not the Chimera being to expensive. Rather than comparing it to undercosted options like Scythes and Serpents, look at what you actually get with the Chimera.
65 points for AV12 front, 2 good weapons, 5 fire points. I'd say that's fine when compared to transports like Rhinos, Razorbacks, Devilfish, Ghost Arks and just general cost.
It would have been easier (for me anyway) to buy that argument had they not released the reason for the 65 point price tag(Taurox) at the same time.
It's clearly done for the sake of selling more of the new toy.
I do see why you think that, and believe me, I'm just as cynical and convinced that it was done just to boost Taurox sales. I was just trying to say that the slight points increase is a relatively minor thing to worry about when, at current tally, we've lost 4 special characters and 4 complete units There are certainly a lot of things to complain about, but I don't think the Chimera pricing, regardless of motive, is a priority.
Oh, look, the ultimate Internet contrarian and the user least capable of walking away from a fight have encountered each other in a thread about a somewhat controversial update of a very popular army.
azreal13 wrote: Oh, look, the ultimate Internet contrarian and the user least capable of walking away from a fight have encountered each other in a thread about a somewhat controversial update of a very popular army.
Awesome! Thanks for helping the situation out so much!
Holier than thou sniping is just as much of a annoyance as the "ultimate Internet contrarian and the user least capable of walking away from a fight "!
Heafstaag wrote: Haven't seen this yet, but a poster over on warseer posted the the bullgryn's 'brute shield' gives a 5+ invul save!
Truly the savior of the codex right here. Everything else was justified.
This right here is why I'm getting tired of this thread. We've had maybe 10 pages of actual rumor and 40 pages of discussion of said rumors, then 100 pages of bitch, bitch, bitch, bitch, bitch, bitch, bitch, bitch, bitch, bitch, bitch, bitch, "oh, you're telling me not to 'whinge' then you're a GW fanboy."
And now anytime someone intrudes on that conversation to talk about actual rumors, they get a snarky comment. This thread needs to die.
And i must say im quite happy with how the codex turned out.
I like Imperial Guard, i like playing Imperial Guard.
Couldn't care less about Point Costs and such things.
Because there is no reason why you should have to convert a medusa (that's a FW medusa in your pic). There is no logical reason on why these things were cut from the IG codex. If they were cutting units with no GW models, then WHY IS THE VENDETTA STILL IN?
azreal13 wrote: Oh, look, the ultimate Internet contrarian and the user least capable of walking away from a fight have encountered each other in a thread about a somewhat controversial update of a very popular army.
Awesome! Thanks for helping the situation out so much!
Holier than thou sniping is just as much of a annoyance as the "ultimate Internet contrarian and the user least capable of walking away from a fight "!
Wasn't talking about you dude, but this response, considering others I've seen from you too, is telling me that you are probably suffering a sense of humour failure and need to decompress a little?
Because there is no reason why you should have to convert a medusa (that's a FW medusa in your pic). There is no logical reason on why these things were cut from the IG codex. If they were cutting units with no GW models, then WHY IS THE VENDETTA STILL IN?
That is actually a very good point. It, like the Arty, is a FW conversion kit, so why hasn't it gone too? If Spock could see how GW are operating, he'd have a heart attack.
There seems to be a fair old amount of stuff missing from the new Imperial Guar..... sorry ASTRA MILITARUM section of the GW website. No Creed, no LC, but weirdly still Al'Rahem even though he's meant to be dropped. Kind of hoping it's just a balls up as they're moving stuff on the website around, but now I'm getting a little worried. I wanted the LC.
azreal13 wrote: Oh, look, the ultimate Internet contrarian and the user least capable of walking away from a fight have encountered each other in a thread about a somewhat controversial update of a very popular army.
Awesome! Thanks for helping the situation out so much!
Holier than thou sniping is just as much of a annoyance as the "ultimate Internet contrarian and the user least capable of walking away from a fight "!
Wasn't talking about you dude, but this response, considering others I've seen from you too, is telling me that you are probably suffering a sense of humour failure and need to decompress a little?
JeneralJoe117 wrote: There seems to be a fair old amount of stuff missing from the new Imperial Guar..... sorry ASTRA MILITARUM section of the GW website. No Creed, no LC, but weirdly still Al'Rahem even though he's meant to be dropped. Kind of hoping it's just a balls up as they're moving stuff on the website around, but now I'm getting a little worried. I wanted the LC.
The LC is certainly gone, which is annoying, as I was planning on getting one this week (my only hope now is that the local GW store will still have one on the shelf next week). Stupidly, they've kept the old metal ones, but got rid of the newer, and in my opinion, best one.
azreal13 wrote: Oh, look, the ultimate Internet contrarian and the user least capable of walking away from a fight have encountered each other in a thread about a somewhat controversial update of a very popular army.
Awesome! Thanks for helping the situation out so much!
Holier than thou sniping is just as much of a annoyance as the "ultimate Internet contrarian and the user least capable of walking away from a fight "!
Wasn't talking about you dude, but this response, considering others I've seen from you too, is telling me that you are probably suffering a sense of humour failure and need to decompress a little?
JeneralJoe117 wrote: There seems to be a fair old amount of stuff missing from the new Imperial Guar..... sorry ASTRA MILITARUM section of the GW website. No Creed, no LC, but weirdly still Al'Rahem even though he's meant to be dropped. Kind of hoping it's just a balls up as they're moving stuff on the website around, but now I'm getting a little worried. I wanted the LC.
The LC is certainly gone, which is annoying, as I was planning on getting one this week (my only hope now is that the local GW store will still have one on the shelf next week). Stupidly, they've kept the old metal ones, but got rid of the newer, and in my opinion, best one.
I wish they'd give us a countdown before stuff like this happened. I keep missing out on models I've wanted for ages, but always delayed getting because they just pull them about a week before I have the money to buy them. Makes me a sad panda.
And you don't, clearly. Would you want to take a beautifully painted model like you have pictured and rip it apart to ad a different barrel? You do realize how asinine that proposition is, right? Just continuing to say....
JeneralJoe117 wrote: There seems to be a fair old amount of stuff missing from the new Imperial Guar..... sorry ASTRA MILITARUM section of the GW website. No Creed, no LC, but weirdly still Al'Rahem even though he's meant to be dropped. Kind of hoping it's just a balls up as they're moving stuff on the website around, but now I'm getting a little worried. I wanted the LC.
The LC is certainly gone, which is annoying, as I was planning on getting one this week (my only hope now is that the local GW store will still have one on the shelf next week). Stupidly, they've kept the old metal ones, but got rid of the newer, and in my opinion, best one.
They are going to want people to buy the new commissar. Which is really annoying, seeing as the Lord Commissar in finecast was the best looking one and the new commissar is probably the worst looking one. (IMO)
They are going to want people to buy the new commissar. Which is really annoying, seeing as the Lord Commissar in finecast was the best looking one and the new commissar is probably the worst looking one. (IMO)
Yeah, the wife painted up a great LC for me, and I'll definitely try and rock some guys with him. Disappointing he's gone. The other commissar models are equally awesome; the one with the plasma pistol charging forward with the power sword is one of favourite models of all time.
The new commissar doesn't do anything for me. The sword freaks me out.
30 points per model is about right, yeah. You have to consider the transport-tax and the fact that they probably won't be charging until turn 3 in the price, as well.
I want Mr. Omega to come back to the thread and rant about how much of a great tactical opportunity they are and how we're angry sheeple for not seeing it, though.
BlaxicanX wrote: 30 points per model is about right, yeah. You have to consider the transport-tax and the fact that they probably won't be charging until turn 3 in the price, as well.
Right, and there's another problem; transportation.
Are they very bulky, or just bulky?
If the former, they're useless; no transport can take a unit big enough to be worth it.
If the latter, it'd be doable, but nothing to right home about.
At least at 30ppm, with a constant 5++, they could serve as a wall for a blob of guardsmen.
I want Mr. Omega to come back to the thread and rant about how much of a great tactical opportunity they are and how we're angry sheeple for not seeing it, though.
They are going to want people to buy the new commissar. Which is really annoying, seeing as the Lord Commissar in finecast was the best looking one and the new commissar is probably the worst looking one. (IMO)
Yeah, the wife painted up a great LC for me, and I'll definitely try and rock some guys with him. Disappointing he's gone. The other commissar models are equally awesome; the one with the plasma pistol charging forward with the power sword is one of favourite models of all time.
The new commissar doesn't do anything for me. The sword freaks me out.
I actually just bought the running comissar to make sure I had one before the new one comes out. It's a shame I never got the other metal ones. I liked the powerfist commissar (the book one), just never had the funds to pick him up/ motivation to buy him.
They are going to want people to buy the new commissar. Which is really annoying, seeing as the Lord Commissar in finecast was the best looking one and the new commissar is probably the worst looking one. (IMO)
Yeah, the wife painted up a great LC for me, and I'll definitely try and rock some guys with him. Disappointing he's gone. The other commissar models are equally awesome; the one with the plasma pistol charging forward with the power sword is one of favourite models of all time.
The new commissar doesn't do anything for me. The sword freaks me out.
I actually just bought the running comissar to make sure I had one before the new one comes out. It's a shame I never got the other metal ones. I liked the powerfist commissar (the book one), just never had the funds to pick him up/ motivation to buy him.
Paradigm wrote: Just a quick question: Are the Artillery rules/costs in IA1 identical to the ones in the old IG codex? Because if so, there's nothing stopping anyone just using the old codex rules and saying 'these are now FW, but the stats are the same, ok?'
Might save people some money on the IA book.
I suspect if you're playing people who'd block you from using them as they weren't in the new Guard codex,
they'd also be the sort of people who'd insist you have the appropriate IA book to show them or they'd refuse to play you anyway (if they 'allowed' forgeworld at all)
Vaktathi wrote: Yeah, the crappy Ld requiring babysitting by an HQ makes them very hampered units.
Which is why I'd put base Ogryn at ~25pts and the upgraded version at no more than 35pts.
There's so much in this edition and in their own rules/codex that is working against them, I can't see anything higher than that making them remotely usable.
Can we start a new thread for IG NEws etc? I just read 4 pages of whining and haven't learned anything else about the army.Mods? Hello? Bueller?
Everything worth reading is on the first page.
The rest is known as the discussion. Some of its good, some of it isn't, some of it is sad, and some of it is funny. Such is the nature of a large, diverse forum.
Mr.Omega wrote: I think the Chimera nerf is being viewed with the sort of tunnel vision people had with Belial's points nerf. Belial was massively undercosted in the previous DA Codex and people cried doom and designer idiocy at his massive points increase, despite the fact that for all his advantages it was entirely justified- the only thing that doesn't make him worthwhile is the fact the playstyle he's associated with is isn't good, frankly.
So what did recosting him accomplish if his playstyle isn't viable other than making it less so?
Are you familiar with the concept of a strawman argument?
Also, I just had an aneurysm.
I mean really, the Razorback is 55 for TLHB, has less armour, less firepower and less carry capacity. Compared to the Rhino, 20 points buys you 6 midstrength long range shots an armour that lets you survive more than a turn on the front.
The Razorback has side hatches, self repair, BS4 and is in an army of super-soldier infantry and not wet noodle infantry.
6 Marines is a laughable force. At best you've got Sternguard in there, and if you have Sternguard in there, you're an idiot. Tactical Squads get maximum one special/heavy and suck at combating anything other than Guardsmen.
The self-repair rule is also so laughably bad It makes your triplet look extremely flawed off the bat. But then, the Razorback doesn't even have that rule.
Side hatches at best give 2'' extra movement, which is hardly a balancing force here.
The Chimera was a bit too cheap, arguably.
At the beginning of 5E, when most other armies were still running 4E or 5E books, perhaps. After 6E, Hull Points, new transport rules, and the new Necron, Eldar, and Tau books? One will notice those Chimera parking lots largely disappeared.
A Chimera parking lot is literally a name the tactic was baptised with because of how mind-numbingly stupid and brainless it is, so are you surprised and mournful? Chimeras are effective and will continue to be effective in groups if proper strategy, such as synergy with Leman Russ tanks, is occuring.
People should stop whinging about smokes and searchlights, both of those are far from mandatory, 95% of the time you'll want to be shooting or exploiting flat out instead, or you'll be behind something like a Leman Russ for a consistent cover save/LOS blockage that renders them effectively moot. Searchlights are 1 pt. Big deal.
Searchlights are used more than ever now that Nightfight is in *EVERY* mission type and not just 1/3rd of games, and Smoke Launchers are always valuable wargear, the Leman Russ tanks don't advance ahead of the chimeras for them to hide behind.
If you really care about night fighting that much (lol), pay the extra 5 points. As I said, big deal. Uh, and yes having Leman Russ tanks provide LOS blockage and cover for Chimeras is extremely effective, you didn't even provide evidence to suggest why your idea was true. Using a Leman Russ+ Chimera defensive formation can put out fire in the early turns and then repel counter attacks once the formation is broken with the Chimera infantry or speed forward to grab objectives from the corpses of those massacred by your fire.
Paying 30-40 points extra army wide will also possibly get balanced out by everything else getting cheaper.
Except...it's not all getting cheaper...? And, as I pointed out earlier, for many players we're not talking about 30-40pts but 3-6x that.
There will be other balancing factors, you can be sure.
The points cost of most things hasn't leaked so calling doom at this point is idiotic.
And yet you're certain taht everything else will be getting cheaper when we've seen no such evidence aside from Sentinels.
What part of "possibly" failed to route itself into your cranium?
Can i just reply to the ball is round comment. As in, anything can happen. A game can be balanced to high heavens, yet you sometimes you roll lots of 6's and other times only can get 1's. It's the way the game works.
Also, can't wait to see what they all can properly do. My scions might well be brilliant inquisitorial stormies though, with the volley-gun acting as proxy hot-shot lasgun until rules for them are included with GK/Inq.
Mr.Omega wrote: I think the Chimera nerf is being viewed with the sort of tunnel vision people had with Belial's points nerf. Belial was massively undercosted in the previous DA Codex and people cried doom and designer idiocy at his massive points increase, despite the fact that for all his advantages it was entirely justified- the only thing that doesn't make him worthwhile is the fact the playstyle he's associated with is isn't good, frankly.
So what did recosting him accomplish if his playstyle isn't viable other than making it less so?
Are you familiar with the concept of a strawman argument?
Also, I just had an aneurysm.
I mean really, the Razorback is 55 for TLHB, has less armour, less firepower and less carry capacity. Compared to the Rhino, 20 points buys you 6 midstrength long range shots an armour that lets you survive more than a turn on the front.
The Razorback has side hatches, self repair, BS4 and is in an army of super-soldier infantry and not wet noodle infantry.
6 Marines is a laughable force. At best you've got Sternguard in there, and if you have Sternguard in there, you're an idiot. Tactical Squads get maximum one special/heavy and suck at combating anything other than Guardsmen.
The self-repair rule is also so laughably bad It makes your triplet look extremely flawed off the bat. But then, the Razorback doesn't even have that rule.
Side hatches at best give 2'' extra movement, which is hardly a balancing force here.
The Chimera was a bit too cheap, arguably.
At the beginning of 5E, when most other armies were still running 4E or 5E books, perhaps. After 6E, Hull Points, new transport rules, and the new Necron, Eldar, and Tau books? One will notice those Chimera parking lots largely disappeared.
A Chimera parking lot is literally a name the tactic was baptised with because of how mind-numbingly stupid and brainless it is, so are you surprised and mournful? Chimeras are effective and will continue to be effective in groups if proper strategy, such as synergy with Leman Russ tanks, is occuring.
People should stop whinging about smokes and searchlights, both of those are far from mandatory, 95% of the time you'll want to be shooting or exploiting flat out instead, or you'll be behind something like a Leman Russ for a consistent cover save/LOS blockage that renders them effectively moot. Searchlights are 1 pt. Big deal.
Searchlights are used more than ever now that Nightfight is in *EVERY* mission type and not just 1/3rd of games, and Smoke Launchers are always valuable wargear, the Leman Russ tanks don't advance ahead of the chimeras for them to hide behind.
If you really care about night fighting that much (lol), pay the extra 5 points. As I said, big deal. Uh, and yes having Leman Russ tanks provide LOS blockage and cover for Chimeras is extremely effective, you didn't even provide evidence to suggest why your idea was true. Using a Leman Russ+ Chimera defensive formation can put out fire in the early turns and then repel counter attacks once the formation is broken with the Chimera infantry or speed forward to grab objectives from the corpses of those massacred by your fire.
Paying 30-40 points extra army wide will also possibly get balanced out by everything else getting cheaper.
Except...it's not all getting cheaper...? And, as I pointed out earlier, for many players we're not talking about 30-40pts but 3-6x that.
There will be other balancing factors, you can be sure.
The points cost of most things hasn't leaked so calling doom at this point is idiotic.
And yet you're certain taht everything else will be getting cheaper when we've seen no such evidence aside from Sentinels.
What part of "possibly" failed to route itself into your cranium?
Your style of quoting/replying is giving me an aneurysm.
6 man SMtac squad is a joke, compared to an IG squad?
Just buy the search light? So now I'm spending 70 pts for what use to cost me 55?
I don't follow your logic.
I know I've got a lot of mortar barrels floating around from heavy weapon squads. I think I'm going to figure out how to fabricate a little quad mortar turret to turn Chimeras into Wyvern.
Biophysical wrote: I know I've got a lot of mortar barrels floating around from heavy weapon squads. I think I'm going to figure out how to fabricate a little quad mortar turret to turn Chimeras into Wyverns.
Not being snarky, serious question. Then what? Buy the Taurox to replace the Chimera? Or just not use transports?
Well, I've got 7 chimeras. I never really used all of them anyway unless I was doing a parking lot on a lark. If I make three Wyverns, 4 is plenty for the way I play to mobilize a few guys.
Really, though, if I do it right I'll be able to convert it back and forth depending on what I want to play.
Biophysical wrote: Well, I've got 7 chimeras. I never really used all of them anyway unless I was doing a parking lot on a lark. If I make three Wyverns, 4 is plenty for the way I play to mobilize a few guys.
Really, though, if I do it right I'll be able to convert it back and forth depending on what I want to play.
Ah, got you. I was thinking a permanent switch. Maybe you could go really easy and make it a swappable turret instead of a body change?
Could make it easier to switch from an opened WhyVern to an enclosed Chimera.
Your style of quoting/replying is giving me an aneurysm.
6 man SMtac squad is a joke, compared to an IG squad?
Just buy the search light? So now I'm spending 70 pts for what use to cost me 55?
I don't follow your logic.
Veteran Squads cost only 60pts, can have one heavy weapon team and two special weapons.
Doctrines are Grenadiers-all carapace armour for 15pts.
Advanced Sentinel with camo and mines for 10
Demolisher have melta bombs and one demolition charge.
Following Naftka's new leaks from just now, 100 points (ignore the Chimera for a minute, though it is an auto-take, we're comparing explicitly, solely, only the infantry inside) gets you 10 men, 2 plasma guns and 3+ saves in hard cover, 2+ on GTG. That basically means you're harder to dig out of it than Marines. 2 Plasma guns/melta guns/flamers can actually fulfill a role with effectiveness, a single special weapon will never be anything other than purely extra. Across several squads that is literally double the amount of special weapon firepower. I eagerly wait to see the cost of Demolitions now, which will also probably be less, and will certainly A) Add massive anti-infantry firepower and B) Make Vets a very effective AT unit, especially against Wave Serpents. This just means the role of my Mech Vets has changed slightly.
And you don't, clearly.
Would you want to take a beautifully painted model like you have pictured and rip it apart to ad a different barrel?
You do realize how asinine that proposition is, right?
Just continuing to say....
Sticking a smaller tube into the larger barrel is ripping it apart? It is like the hydra/wyvern kit, that easy... I didn't know conversions, or making due with what you have (making the best of a situation) was asinine....
I'm just sayin, if GW gives us lemons, we can make lemonade!
If you don't like lemonade, there are other juices out there!
Exactly. If I can cut loose my Chimera doors, I'll make a little turntable with mortar barrels on it. Chimera? Doors closed. Wyvern? open doors and put in the mortar system. Maybe a couple of Catachans loading mortar bombs. Take off the multilaser and add some little sensor/comms bit or something. Check out the picture I edited in a couple posts up. It's an M113.
Your style of quoting/replying is giving me an aneurysm.
6 man SMtac squad is a joke, compared to an IG squad?
Just buy the search light? So now I'm spending 70 pts for what use to cost me 55?
I don't follow your logic.
Veteran Squads cost only 60pts, can have one heavy weapon team and two special weapons.
Doctrines are Grenadiers-all carapace armour for 15pts.
Advanced Sentinel with camo and mines for 10
Demolisher have melta bombs and one demolition charge.
Following Naftka's new leaks from just now, 100 points (ignore the Chimera for a minute, though it is an auto-take, we're comparing explicitly, solely, only the infantry inside) gets you 10 men, 2 plasma guns and 3+ saves in hard cover, 2+ on GTG. That basically means you're harder to dig out of it than Marines. 2 Plasma guns/melta guns/flamers can actually fulfill a role with effectiveness, a single special weapon will never be anything other than purely extra. Across several squads that is literally double the amount of special weapon firepower. I eagerly wait to see the cost of Demolitions now, which will also probably be less, and will certainly A) Add massive anti-infantry firepower and B) Make Vets a very effective AT unit, especially against Wave Serpents.
Your style of quoting/replying is giving me an aneurysm.
6 man SMtac squad is a joke, compared to an IG squad?
Just buy the search light? So now I'm spending 70 pts for what use to cost me 55?
I don't follow your logic.
Veteran Squads cost only 60pts, can have one heavy weapon team and two special weapons.
Doctrines are Grenadiers-all carapace armour for 15pts.
Advanced Sentinel with camo and mines for 10
Demolisher have melta bombs and one demolition charge.
Following Naftka's new leaks from just now, 100 points (ignore the Chimera for a minute, though it is an auto-take, we're comparing explicitly, solely, only the infantry inside) gets you 10 men, 2 plasma guns and 3+ saves in hard cover, 2+ on GTG. That basically means you're harder to dig out of it than Marines. 2 Plasma guns/melta guns/flamers can actually fulfill a role with effectiveness, a single special weapon will never be anything other than purely extra. Across several squads that is literally double the amount of special weapon firepower. I eagerly wait to see the cost of Demolitions now, which will also probably be less, and will certainly A) Add massive anti-infantry firepower and B) Make Vets a very effective AT unit, especially against Wave Serpents.
But we are talking about the Chimera. 10 squishy IG troopers are all that fit, not a platoon. Plus being in the Chimera, they can't be given orders.
6 man SMtac squad is a joke, compared to an IG squad?
Uh, no. I was answering this point.
I will gladly look at and accept good evidence to the contrary to what I'm saying but thus far I have seen little, and very few efforts to even present some.
10 IG Troopers in hard cover with cloaks is still probably more resistant to fire than Marines. The moment you leave the Chimera a PCS in a Chimera can then issue them orders from inside their own as well.
If those Vet rules are real, mech-vets will still be a net reduction in points (admittedly with one less special weapon). 80 points for a pair of BS4 meltaguns is still good. 145 for the squad in a chimera isn't bad either. We'll see if Vets get any cool little things. A combi-weapon on the sergeant would help. They used to be able to get them. If you want them on foot, a squad with 2 plasmas and Grenadiers is pretty decent at 105 points.
Priests like AS priests will make Guard better in close combat than they've ever been, assuming blobs are still a thing.
I used to have a pretty spread out, balanced Imperial Guard army, a little bit of most things. It wouldn't even be remotely playable with the new codex now.
Like, my 1850 point list from a few years ago in 5th Edition.
--------------------------------------------------------
Company Command 4 Melta Guns (Probable decrease in weapons) Chimera Multilaser, Heavy Bolter (Points Increase)
Lord Commissar Bolt Pistol, Power Fist, Carapace (Probable points increase, if he still exists)
Guardsman Marbo (Ceased to Exist)
Ogryns 5 Ogryns (Can't go in Chimera anymore) Chimera Multilaser, Heavy Flamer (Points Increase)
Infantry Platoon Alpha
Command Squad 4 flamers (Probably loses Weapons) Chimera Heavy Flamer, Heavy Bolter (Points Increase) Infantry Squad 1 Autocannon , Grenade Launcher (No News)
Infantry Squad 2 Autocannon, Grenade Launcher (No News)
Infantry Squad 3 Autocannon, Grenade Launcher (No News)
Infantry Squad 4 Autocannon, Grenade Launcher (No News)
Mortar Squad 3 Mortars (No News)
Veteran Squad Beta 3 Plasmaguns (-1 PlasmaGun, probably points increase) Chimera Multilaser, Heavy Flamer (Points Increase) Veteran Squad Gamma 3 Meltaguns (-1 Meltagun, probably up in points) Valkyrie Carrier Multilaser, Rocket Pods (Possibly slightly up in points, fair enough)
Vendetta Gunship 3 Twin Lascannons (Majorly Up in points, fair enough) Leman Russ Battle Cannon, Lascannon (No News)
Manticore 4 Rockets, Heavy Flamer (No News, I imagine points increase or Major downgrade.)
----------------------------------------------
So, I imagine that if I were to build an equivalent modern day army list with Codex Astra Militarum, I'd be probably fielding a 2000 point + army in an environment where, with the exception of Tyranids, every other army has become 'better' in some form or another.
Two specials on the vets is disappointing, but the doctrines are cheaper. I think I'd still rather have three specials though.
What I am confused with is that IG have never been able to take divination. Also, will they be a 10 man squad, because if there isn't an overseer that is a 9 man squad currently.
Your style of quoting/replying is giving me an aneurysm.
6 man SMtac squad is a joke, compared to an IG squad?
Just buy the search light? So now I'm spending 70 pts for what use to cost me 55?
I don't follow your logic.
Veteran Squads cost only 60pts, can have one heavy weapon team and two special weapons.
Doctrines are Grenadiers-all carapace armour for 15pts.
Advanced Sentinel with camo and mines for 10
Demolisher have melta bombs and one demolition charge.
Following Naftka's new leaks from just now, 100 points (ignore the Chimera for a minute, though it is an auto-take, we're comparing explicitly, solely, only the infantry inside) gets you 10 men, 2 plasma guns and 3+ saves in hard cover, 2+ on GTG. That basically means you're harder to dig out of it than Marines. 2 Plasma guns/melta guns/flamers can actually fulfill a role with effectiveness, a single special weapon will never be anything other than purely extra. Across several squads that is literally double the amount of special weapon firepower. I eagerly wait to see the cost of Demolitions now, which will also probably be less, and will certainly A) Add massive anti-infantry firepower and B) Make Vets a very effective AT unit, especially against Wave Serpents. This just means the role of my Mech Vets has changed slightly.
What I am confused with is that IG have never been able to take divination. Also, will they be a 10 man squad, because if there isn't an overseer that is a 9 man squad currently.
Maybe we can purchase them in varying numbers? I'm not sure. Hopefully we'll hear more in the coming days.
Are you familiar with the concept of a strawman argument?
Again, what did the change accomplish aside from making the army worse?
Also, I just had an aneurysm.
much like your inability to properly use the forum quote formatting.
6 Marines is a laughable force. At best you've got Sternguard in there, and if you have Sternguard in there, you're an idiot.
And yet those 6 dudes delivered to wherever they are going are going to be delivering more hurt than whatever a Chimer is carrying typically, especially if its a Troops unit.
Tactical Squads get maximum one special/heavy and suck at combating anything other than Guardsmen.
Sure, ok, the guys with 4's across their entire statline and numerous special rules suck at fighting everything except units that are 1/3rd their cost. Right...
The self-repair rule is also so laughably bad It makes your triplet look extremely flawed off the bat. But then, the Razorback doesn't even have that rule.
Does it not? I admit I could be wrong on that. I haven't seen one on a table in so long I forget.
Side hatches at best give 2'' extra movement, which is hardly a balancing force here.
Side hatches make it so that it can keep its highest armor facing towards the enemy while disembarking the longest possible distance, something the Chimera can only do by putting its one good armor facing *away* from the enemy.
A Chimera parking lot is literally a name the tactic was baptised with because of how mind-numbingly stupid and brainless it is, so are you surprised and mournful?
I played a "chimera parking lot" for...quite a number of years, when they were atrocious, when they were amazing, and again when they went back to being lame, over several different editions and several different iterations of Codex: Imperial Guard. I liked the concept of mechanized infantry armies. So if you want to play a mechanized IG army, you're just stupid and brainless?
Chimeras are effective and will continue to be effective in groups if proper strategy, such as synergy with Leman Russ tanks, is occuring.
So, relying on putting your expensive fire support units up front is what will keep the Chimera viable?
Such armies ceased being effective in 6E, you're apparently the only one that hasn't notice that they've disappeared en-masse from most tables. One won't find mechanized IG lists winning tournaments regularly anymore or even placing spectacularly well (they certainly didn't adepticon). Against a competent opponent playing a competent list, they're already not exactly the scariest army in the universe.
Nerfing them further was unnecessary.
If you really care about night fighting that much (lol),
That thing that comes up every game on turn one 50% of the time and kicks in on turn 5 otherwise? And why should the Chimera now be 71pts for what was 55?
pay the extra 5 points. As I said, big deal.
And you've missed the point, the army is losing capabilities for no good reason, capabilities that matter far more now than before, and those points add up fast in an army built around quantity. It's one thing in an SM army where you may only be looking at 20/30pts on units that don't form the core of your effectiveness anyway, it's another where its entirely possible that's a triple digit increase on units that *do* do a lot of the lifting.
I pointed out earlier that, for the last mechanized list I ran in an event, this change would drastically increase the cost of the list. 165pts just for the base chimera cost increase and smoke launchers, 176 with searchlights. Going off what we've seen, no major changes to platoon costs, etc, the army has to drop a tank, 10 dudes, a couple guns on other units, and now has open topped hydras, and all it's going to get for that are a couple extra orders.
Uh, and yes having Leman Russ tanks provide LOS blockage and cover for Chimeras is extremely effective,
Yes, that 5+ is *extremely* effective
But seriously, it's useful, but if your Leman Russ tanks are trundling forward providing cover for your Chimeras, it means those Chimeras aren't able to make full use of their movement if you need to (as the Leman Russ is Heavy) and you're now putting your biggest, heaviest guns that enemy melta and assault units are going to aim for first right up front.
you didn't even provide evidence to suggest why your idea was true.
Probably because I thought it was obvious that putting your slow, heavy hitting, long range fire support units up front was typically a bad idea.
Using a Leman Russ+ Chimera defensive formation can put out fire in the early turns and then repel counter attacks once the formation is broken with the Chimera infantry or speed forward to grab objectives from the corpses of those massacred by your fire.
Usually you do the opposite, use the Chimeras to shield the Leman Russ tanks and body-block them to keep assault units and meltas away. Have you never played against a biker or drop pod list?
There will be other balancing factors, you can be sure.
How are you so sure of this? Everything we're seeing is largely increases or more of the same, the only indication that anything else is getting cheaper is that Sentinels went down and Vets are going down 10pts but losing their 3rd special weapon (according to Faeit212), so someone playing Mechvets now pays the same price (assuming not paying for smoke or searchlights) for said unit, and it's less effective overall. Infantry platoons appear to remain largely the same.
The points cost of most things hasn't leaked so calling doom at this point is idiotic
What part of "possibly" failed to route itself into your cranium?
The part where you base everything you're arguing on "it'll be ok, really, everything else will be cheaper!"
1) Take Priest
2) Take 50 man blob
3) Take Azrael
4) Use re-roll invulns hymn
5) Laugh as your 50 Guardsmen with re-rollable 4+ invulnerables steamroll your enemy round by round into dust.
1) Take Priest
2) Take 50 man blob
3) Take Azrael
4) Use re-roll invulns hymn
5) Laugh as your 50 Guardsmen with re-rollable 4+ invulnerables steamroll your enemy round by round into dust.
Then again, we can already grab divination Inquisitors, which will also likely still be cheaper, as well as providing leadership buffs to the attached units.
I'm pleased we have in-codex options, as allies are not my favourite things, but I think from a purely power level perspective, Inquisitors are still pretty ace.
Blacksails wrote: Then again, we can already grab divination Inquisitors, which will also likely still be cheaper, as well as providing leadership buffs to the attached units.
I'm pleased we have in-codex options, as allies are not my favourite things, but I think from a purely power level perspective, Inquisitors are still pretty ace.
Exactly.
If divination was enough to make IG overpowered, then they already would be. Inquisitors aren't just an option for IG, they're a better option for IG than a PBS. frankly. A PBS will almost undoubtedly be more expensive than a single 50 point Inquisitor, and you can't hide them in another squad to protect them., nor can you upgrade them with a plethora of other wargear to make them even better at support.
So. PBS's getting divination is a *plus*, but it's not really a game changer.
Blacksails wrote: Then again, we can already grab divination Inquisitors, which will also likely still be cheaper, as well as providing leadership buffs to the attached units.
I'm pleased we have in-codex options, as allies are not my favourite things, but I think from a purely power level perspective, Inquisitors are still pretty ace.
Absolutely! Inquisitors are also likely to be far better than the new PBS, but there's only a limited amount of Inquisitors you can take.
Blacksails wrote: Then again, we can already grab divination Inquisitors, which will also likely still be cheaper, as well as providing leadership buffs to the attached units.
I'm pleased we have in-codex options, as allies are not my favourite things, but I think from a purely power level perspective, Inquisitors are still pretty ace.
Absolutely! Inquisitors are also likely to be far better than the new PBS, but there's only a limited amount of Inquisitors you can take.
Sure, but at less than 1850pts, how many divination sources are you planning on taking? Two Inquisitors is plenty, considering one of them can be Coteaz, for even more bonuses.
As Blaxican put it, PBS are a bonus, not the source of the IG potential OP-ness.
I'm not saying PBS are bad; we still don't have the full rules to judge that accurately, but claiming they'll make the codex workable due to divination ignores the existing options we already have.
Are you familiar with the concept of a strawman argument?
Again, what did the change accomplish aside from making the army worse?
It didn't make the army worse in anyway other than cost. Deepstrike with no scatter made one unit in every DW far more effective.
Also, I just had an aneurysm.
much like your inability to properly use the forum quote formatting.
I find people are less likely to deliberately mis-interpret and ignore my key points and factors in context when I directly answer each point.
They still do, evidently, but not so much.
6 Marines is a laughable force. At best you've got Sternguard in there, and if you have Sternguard in there, you're an idiot.
And yet those 6 dudes delivered to wherever they are going are going to be delivering more hurt than whatever a Chimer is carrying typically, especially if its a Troops unit.
1) A competent SM player isn't taking Tacticals to begin with
2) The Tacticals have no role or purpose whereas Demo Vets with SW's still can have a role
3) This isn't even that true because double plasma,7 Lasguns and a shotgun (or new 1 point bolter on the Sergeant instead of the shooty) is more effective against MC's and hard infantry. For hilarity, charge weaker MC's with Demo Vets and wipe the floor with them as every man gets a S8 AP1 attack.
Tactical Squads get maximum one special/heavy and suck at combating anything other than Guardsmen.
Sure, ok, the guys with 4's across their entire statline and numerous special rules suck at fighting everything except units that are 1/3rd their cost. Right...
This isn't really sufficnet evidence to suggest anything, and ignores context. It is not worth paying for most of those increased stats, Tacticals are terrible in comparison to other basic infantry, and only really excel at bullying units weaker than them. You also completely ignored my point on special weapons.
If a unit does not have a clearly defined role or advantage in taking, it should not be taken, as a rule of thumb. Tacs with one special do not effectively give a unit a role.
Side hatches at best give 2'' extra movement, which is hardly a balancing force here.
Side hatches make it so that it can keep its highest armor facing towards the enemy while disembarking the longest possible distance, something the Chimera can only do by putting its one good armor facing *away* from the enemy.
Sure, that instance sucks, I'll concede that, but the Razorback can be easily blown apart by the most lackluster AT from the front.
A Chimera parking lot is literally a name the tactic was baptised with because of how mind-numbingly stupid and brainless it is, so are you surprised and mournful?
I played a "chimera parking lot" for...quite a number of years, when they were atrocious, when they were amazing, and again when they went back to being lame, over several different editions and several different iterations of Codex: Imperial Guard. I liked the concept of mechanized infantry armies. So if you want to play a mechanized IG army, you're just stupid and brainless?
Parking lot, as I see it, implies simple-minded spam with no strategy, and throwing your Chimeras towards the enemy and hoping for the best. Maybe you have a different idea of what the name implies, but as I see it, there are still ways to play mechanised infantry.
Chimeras are effective and will continue to be effective in groups if proper strategy, such as synergy with Leman Russ tanks, is occuring.
So, relying on putting your expensive fire support units up front is what will keep the Chimera viable?
Such armies ceased being effective in 6E, you're apparently the only one that hasn't notice that they've disappeared en-masse from most tables. One won't find mechanized IG lists winning tournaments regularly anymore or even placing spectacularly well (they certainly didn't adepticon). Against a competent opponent playing a competent list, they're already not exactly the scariest army in the universe.
Nerfing them further was unnecessary.
There's no evidence here suggesting why, just stating that people have given up. With the new Codex changes we'll see if Mech doesn't see a return, especially since Pask MK2 has arrived to make the Leman Russ aspect considerably more effective.
If you really care about night fighting that much (lol),
That thing that comes up every game on turn one 50% of the time and kicks in on turn 5 otherwise? And why should the Chimera now be 71pts for what was 55?
I would never take the smoke launchers on Chimeras because of reasons previously stated in a previous post- basically with Leman Russ escorts and the need to either shoot or flat out as priority there is no need for them 95% of the time. Yeah, losing them ain't great but in the overall scheme of things I can't see much being lost.
pay the extra 5 points. As I said, big deal.
And you've missed the point, the army is losing capabilities for no good reason
You're right. There may be no good reason. But its pointless looking at why something has happened, we can only look to adapting to changes and understanding what the new status of Mech is. This is my perspective. In my honest opinion I don't think it will be dead.
I pointed out earlier that, for the last mechanized list I ran in an event, this change would drastically increase the cost of the list. 165pts just for the base chimera cost increase and smoke launchers, 176 with searchlights. Going off what we've seen, no major changes to platoon costs, etc, the army has to drop a tank, 10 dudes, a couple guns on other units, and now has open topped hydras, and all it's going to get for that are a couple extra orders.
Adapt your list. Everyone has to do this, why should you be the exception, why should GW cater to you? To accomplish this you wait until the Codex, absorb it all and edit your list as necessary.
Uh, and yes having Leman Russ tanks provide LOS blockage and cover for Chimeras is extremely effective,
Yes, that 5+ is *extremely* effective
But seriously, it's useful, but if your Leman Russ tanks are trundling forward providing cover for your Chimeras, it means those Chimeras aren't able to make full use of their movement if you need to (as the Leman Russ is Heavy) and you're now putting your biggest, heaviest guns that enemy melta and assault units are going to aim for first right up front.
1) Its a defensive formation. You do not trundle first thing towards the enemy at full pace. Mech should not be played as a race to get to your enemy, that just leads to very easy and very quick defeats. I learnt this the hard way with Rhino rushes in my SM from experience.
2) Don't trundle towards melta/assault units full stop
3) If you place a Chimera directly behind a Leman Russ, and slap a duplicate of this pair together, or close together, you're getting a 4+, or even a 3+ if taking fire from about 45 degrees in front. Positioning is key and requires skill here, but it is certainly possible.
4) Those units on ground level firing directly ahead at the Chimera cannot even see it and hence cannot fire at it.
5) If speed and continued defensive cover is needed, a tank commander/pask can flat out your LR group for a turn 6+D6 with the new order.
you didn't even provide evidence to suggest why your idea was true.
Probably because I thought it was obvious that putting your slow, heavy hitting, long range fire support units up front was typically a bad idea.
The tank commander order "Strike and Shroud" mitigates the weakness of the Leman Russes if the situation is potentially dire for a turn, and you're basically having to accept this idea of your tanks taking heavy AT fire anyway whenever you field your Russes.
Using a Leman Russ+ Chimera defensive formation can put out fire in the early turns and then repel counter attacks once the formation is broken with the Chimera infantry or speed forward to grab objectives from the corpses of those massacred by your fire.
Usually you do the opposite, use the Chimeras to shield the Leman Russ tanks and body-block them to keep assault units and meltas away. Have you never played against a biker or drop pod list?
Not with this particular tactic, no, I'll admit. That seems a reasonable idea in such a situation as the Leman Russes gain significance.
There will be other balancing factors, you can be sure.
How are you so sure of this? Everything we're seeing is largely increases or more of the same, the only indication that anything else is getting cheaper is that Sentinels went down and Vets are going down 10pts but losing their 3rd special weapon (according to Faeit212), so someone playing Mechvets now pays the same price (assuming not paying for smoke or searchlights) for said unit, and it's less effective overall. Infantry platoons appear to remain largely the same.
Maybe not in terms of points, but I think its a very reasonable assumption that some things will get better and shift the balance in effectiveness.
The points cost of most things hasn't leaked so calling doom at this point is idiotic
What part of "possibly" failed to route itself into your cranium?
The part where you base everything you're arguing on "it'll be ok, really, everything else will be cheaper!"
You have failed to understand my argument, and concluded your post with a strawman.
Please, could someone explain me what is the point in taking platoon squads in this situation ?
When power blobs see their CCW getting more expensive ?
Please, could someone explain me what is the point in taking platoon squads in this situation ?
When power blobs see their CCW getting more expensive ?
Are we sure its for 50? I probably missed something, just asking.
For the footsloggers - (if) they can blob, its still one big horde of bodies using one order.
The cheaper doctrines is great news...especially grenadiers, for me
I don't know if this has been addressed already, but Sentinels, rough riders, and ogryns are all currently missing from the Games Workshop website. Does anyone know if the former two are being reboxed or getting new models, or are they being dropped?
Man if Veterans are gonna cost 60 points and their doctrines are lowered as well I might have to consider just running my Infantry Squads as vets instead.
People would probably look at me weirdly for not running them with 2 special weapons but I don't care, it's basically just a 10 point upgrade for a better ballistics skill and maybe a better armor save if I feel like spending a little more too.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kennizard wrote: I don't know if this has been addressed already, but Sentinels, rough riders, and ogryns are all currently missing from the Games Workshop website. Does anyone know if the former two are being reboxed or getting new models, or are they being dropped?
I would guess that the Sentinel is just being repackaged, I couldn't tell you about Rough Riders though. I think if they were coming out with new models we would have heard or seen something by now.
Please, could someone explain me what is the point in taking platoon squads in this situation ?
When power blobs see their CCW getting more expensive ?
Are we sure its for 50? I probably missed something, just asking.
For the footsloggers - (if) they can blob, its still one big horde of bodies using one order.
The cheaper doctrines is great news...especially grenadiers, for me
Me too, I was using grenadiers for my kasrkin (partly because stormtroopers were almost unplayable).
I understand the utility in platoons, using orders as force multipliers. On the other hand, MSU approach has his advantages too.
However, veterans are insanely cheap to the point of overshadowing most units.
What would you take :
* Scions (5 dudes in carapace armor, 2 special weapons, deep strike) : 70 points base
* Veterans (10 dudes in carapace armor, 2 special weapons, scoring status) : 75 points base (armor upgrade included).
Please, could someone explain me what is the point in taking platoon squads in this situation ? When power blobs see their CCW getting more expensive ?
Are we sure its for 50? I probably missed something, just asking. For the footsloggers - (if) they can blob, its still one big horde of bodies using one order.
The cheaper doctrines is great news...especially grenadiers, for me
Me too, I was using grenadiers for my kasrkin (partly because stormtroopers were almost unplayable). I understand the utility in platoons, using orders as force multipliers. On the other hand, MSU approach has his advantages too. However, veterans are insanely cheap to the point of overshadowing most units.
What would you take : * Scions (5 dudes in carapace armor, 2 special weapons, deep strike) : 70 points base * Veterans (10 dudes in carapace armor, 2 special weapons, scoring status) : 75 points base (armor upgrade included).
Seems there is obvious skew here.
Scions do come with AP3 though. Of course, it is still S3...
Please, could someone explain me what is the point in taking platoon squads in this situation ?
When power blobs see their CCW getting more expensive ?
Are we sure its for 50? I probably missed something, just asking.
For the footsloggers - (if) they can blob, its still one big horde of bodies using one order.
The cheaper doctrines is great news...especially grenadiers, for me
Me too, I was using grenadiers for my kasrkin (partly because stormtroopers were almost unplayable).
I understand the utility in platoons, using orders as force multipliers. On the other hand, MSU approach has his advantages too.
However, veterans are insanely cheap to the point of overshadowing most units.
What would you take :
* Scions (5 dudes in carapace armor, 2 special weapons, deep strike) : 70 points base
* Veterans (10 dudes in carapace armor, 2 special weapons, scoring status) : 75 points base (armor upgrade included).
Seems there is obvious skew here.
Hahaha, Im using Kasrkin as Veterans too ))
I agree that such low cost makes vets really attractive guys So, we will see rise of plasma/ meltavets IMO. But, for me, I like diversity, so it looks like blob of footsloggers, some plasmavets and deep striking scions for the flavour and because of the new orders. Those for scions seems to me string as hell...even it it means driving Taurox Prime with HQ to the rear, deep strike second unit to the beacon and shoot till all dies...
On the other hand, I think these are positive problems, like "hmmm, vets seems great, maybe I will take more of them on expense of basic footsloggers", definetly better than "heck, vets for 90 and just with one special weapon"
Your style of quoting/replying is giving me an aneurysm.
6 man SMtac squad is a joke, compared to an IG squad?
Just buy the search light? So now I'm spending 70 pts for what use to cost me 55?
I don't follow your logic.
Veteran Squads cost only 60pts, can have one heavy weapon team and two special weapons.
Doctrines are Grenadiers-all carapace armour for 15pts.
Advanced Sentinel with camo and mines for 10
Demolisher have melta bombs and one demolition charge.
Following Naftka's new leaks from just now, 100 points (ignore the Chimera for a minute, though it is an auto-take, we're comparing explicitly, solely, only the infantry inside) gets you 10 men, 2 plasma guns and 3+ saves in hard cover, 2+ on GTG. That basically means you're harder to dig out of it than Marines. 2 Plasma guns/melta guns/flamers can actually fulfill a role with effectiveness, a single special weapon will never be anything other than purely extra. Across several squads that is literally double the amount of special weapon firepower. I eagerly wait to see the cost of Demolitions now, which will also probably be less, and will certainly A) Add massive anti-infantry firepower and B) Make Vets a very effective AT unit, especially against Wave Serpents. This just means the role of my Mech Vets has changed slightly.
There are people who are criticizing GW and have legit complaints.
There are people with legit complaints but due to their over negativity they aren't being taken seriously.
There are people who defend GW and won't listen to any complaints.
There are people who realize that there is room for improvement but don't like the toxic negative attitude.
Also, there are a lot of people who don't understand the other side's argument and so there'll never be an understanding or reasonable conversation until all sides actually understand what the other side says.
As I read I see people who say things I agree with, but the way they present their argument makes me want to disagree with them.
I think this new IG could be pretty good. Yes, some things are being changed and so we'll have to adjust our armies. That's true with every new dex. Some things aren't cool changes and some thing are. (I'm a big fan of the cheap sentinels.) Let's wait and see the full dex before judging it. And if it turns out to be crappy, I'll voice my criticisms. (As I did with the Chaos and Nids.) But if its good, I'll say so. (Like the SM) But either way, I have to see it first.
Please, could someone explain me what is the point in taking platoon squads in this situation ?
When power blobs see their CCW getting more expensive ?
Are we sure its for 50? I probably missed something, just asking.
For the footsloggers - (if) they can blob, its still one big horde of bodies using one order.
The cheaper doctrines is great news...especially grenadiers, for me
Me too, I was using grenadiers for my kasrkin (partly because stormtroopers were almost unplayable).
I understand the utility in platoons, using orders as force multipliers. On the other hand, MSU approach has his advantages too.
However, veterans are insanely cheap to the point of overshadowing most units.
What would you take :
* Scions (5 dudes in carapace armor, 2 special weapons, deep strike) : 70 points base
* Veterans (10 dudes in carapace armor, 2 special weapons, scoring status) : 75 points base (armor upgrade included).
Seems there is obvious skew here.
As the saying has sometimes gone with 40k tactics, don't just look at the numbers.
That Scion squad is better when expanded to 10 men, and with deep strike+move through cover+ extra anti-elite fire it takes on the role of a scalpel/disruption unit, whereas the Veteran squad is your frontline infantry.
Scions also unlock Scion Command Squads, which are very good SW spam units, and also buff Scions considerably.
You get one BS4 melta downgraded to a BS3 Combimelta, but you get Fearless, Hatred, an extra body w/ 4++, and a chance at some prayers that make you not completely trash in close-combat after you blast something with meltabombs.
It's not a clear win, but Priests are cheap enough to use liberally, giving you some options.
MWHistorian wrote: I think this new IG could be pretty good. Yes, some things are being changed and so we'll have to adjust our armies. That's true with every new dex. Some things aren't cool changes and some thing are. (I'm a big fan of the cheap sentinels.) Let's wait and see the full dex before judging it. And if it turns out to be crappy, I'll voice my criticisms. (As I did with the Chaos and Nids.) But if its good, I'll say so. (Like the SM) But either way, I have to see it first.
Mate, such...coll head and open mind attitude... I would buy you beer
There are people who are criticizing GW and have legit complaints.
There are people with legit complaints but due to their over negativity they aren't being taken seriously.
There are people who defend GW and won't listen to any complaints.
There are people who realize that there is room for improvement but don't like the toxic negative attitude.
Also, there are a lot of people who don't understand the other side's argument and so there'll never be an understanding or reasonable conversation until all sides actually understand what the other side says.
As I read I see people who say things I agree with, but the way they present their argument makes me want to disagree with them.
Takes all sorts to make a world! Here to play us out, please give a big hand for Kermit the Frog with the Muppets' 1979 hit, Rainbow Connection!
There are people who are criticizing GW and have legit complaints.
There are people with legit complaints but due to their over negativity they aren't being taken seriously.
There are people who defend GW and won't listen to any complaints.
There are people who realize that there is room for improvement but don't like the toxic negative attitude.
Also, there are a lot of people who don't understand the other side's argument and so there'll never be an understanding or reasonable conversation until all sides actually understand what the other side says.
As I read I see people who say things I agree with, but the way they present their argument makes me want to disagree with them.
Takes all sorts to make a world! Here to play us out, please give a big hand for Kermit the Frog with the Muppets' 1979 hit, Rainbow Connection!
No, I love debate, I just hate this slapfight that's been going on. It's like watching two different conversations edited together without making sense.
Reduction in Vet weapons is annoying, but not unexpected (going to have to break out the superglue and hacksaw). The price decrease is nice, and makes my all-carapace army a lot more viable. PBS rules seem interesting, totally changes the role of the unit.
If the Vet rumours are true coupled with the sentinel rumours then I think my Arbites will do just fine.
I'll miss my third special weapon but the discount on the carapace more then makes up for it. I hope the Hellhound family and Leman Russ Exterminators (I call them Street sweepers ) make the switch ok and my army is still good to go.
There are people who are criticizing GW and have legit complaints.
There are people with legit complaints but due to their over negativity they aren't being taken seriously.
There are people who defend GW and won't listen to any complaints.
There are people who realize that there is room for improvement but don't like the toxic negative attitude.
Also, there are a lot of people who don't understand the other side's argument and so there'll never be an understanding or reasonable conversation until all sides actually understand what the other side says.
As I read I see people who say things I agree with, but the way they present their argument makes me want to disagree with them.
I think this new IG could be pretty good. Yes, some things are being changed and so we'll have to adjust our armies. That's true with every new dex. Some things aren't cool changes and some thing are. (I'm a big fan of the cheap sentinels.) Let's wait and see the full dex before judging it. And if it turns out to be crappy, I'll voice my criticisms. (As I did with the Chaos and Nids.) But if its good, I'll say so. (Like the SM) But either way, I have to see it first.
But, I thought, in the grim dark present of the 156something page, there can only be rage-flame?
I think the codex is allready available for preorder, is it not? So, probably no new glorious revelations at this point. Was there anything dramatically new (like new unit-new) in any new codex in the last year or so, that wasn't leaked before the release? So, if we made it this far, I guess there won't be any new tank chassis, superheavy flier or other heavy gear. Best we can hope for now is some tweaking of rules, loadouts and suchlike I guess.
In Italian though, so use google translate or something.
Apparently 20 Conscripts are only 60 pts now, Scout Sentinel 35. Interesting to hear about heavy weapon squads as well.
Ah, so my guess about the scout was wrong then.
How much were conscripts before?
They were 80 before. And also, I edited the post... I'm not 100% sure on my Italian so I will leave most of the interpreting to other people. It seemed to me from Google Translate that Scout Sentinels were 35 with Scout and Move Through Cover, but it was all a garbled mess so don't trust me on it.
From the above mentioned comments section, some pieces from the IG reliquary:
Apparently there's one item which gives Favoured Enemy to bearer and allies within 6", another which makes every double dice result when giving orders result in Inspired Tactics, and one which gives the bearer 4+ invulnerable save, It Will Not Die and Fear.
Rostere wrote: From the above mentioned comments section, some pieces from the IG reliquary:
Apparently there's one item which gives Favoured Enemy to bearer and allies within 6", another which makes every double dice result when giving orders result in Inspired Tactics, and one which gives the bearer 4+ invulnerable save, It Will Not Die and Fear.
Rostere wrote: From the above mentioned comments section, some pieces from the IG reliquary:
Apparently there's one item which gives Favoured Enemy to bearer and allies within 6", another which makes every double dice result when giving orders result in Inspired Tactics, and one which gives the bearer 4+ invulnerable save, It Will Not Die and Fear.
Uhhhh...
WHAT
Indeed...
I won't try to translate the names of the first two, but the last relic mentioned was apparently called "Funerary Mask of Ollanius".
Leman Russ is 150
Tank Commander is 30
Pask is 70
Hydra is 70
He says that the lasguns from the Chimera can shoot now, not sure what he means by that.
Scout Sentinel is 35
Heavy Weapon Squad is 45 for 3 heavy weapons
Conscripts are 20 for 60 and every additional model is 3
Interesting find this italian blog. With application, I can almost understand some parts. But putting it through a translator is still necessary. What I grabbed :
* Hydra 70 points (open top version) * scout sentinel 35 pts * armoured sentinel 40 pts * LRBT 150 pts * commander Pask 70 pts * conscripts 60 pts / 20 dudes * heavy weapons squad 45 pts (max 5 / platoon) Still made of 3 HWT, but swapping weapons seems free !
Plus this dubious one : * LR executioner 155 pts (may be a confusion with exterminator, like many people do)
And there better be a good reason for 65pt Chimeras. I will laugh/sigh super hard if my Inquisition Codex gets a stealth update to 65 pts too.
If Inquisition gets an update, then that gives us an idea of how GW plans their releases. In other words, they didn't know they were making a Taurox when they wrote Codex: Inquisition...or at least had no idea what the thing would cost.
And there better be a good reason for 65pt Chimeras. I will laugh/sigh super hard if my Inquisition Codex gets a stealth update to 65 pts too.
If Inquisition gets an update, then that gives us an idea of how GW plans their releases. In other words, they didn't know they were making a Taurox when they wrote Codex: Inquisition...or at least had no idea what the thing would cost.
Time will tell. They stealth updated the condemer boltgun 2-3 times.
Also, stop getting so excited over the priests, guys. If they are exactly the same as the SoB priests, which this is what it sounds like, war hymns only work in close combat. That being said, I run a BSS with 20 girls, 4 priests, St Celestine, and Coteaz + Xeno Inquisitor to have Divination, Re-roll Armor Saves, Re-roll Wounds, Hit and Run, Rad Grenades, and Psykotroke Grenades. I also include the Liber Heresius to scout the unit forward 6" and my priests get "Litanies of Faith" which allow me to automatically pass all War Hymns checks.
Finally, a slice of fried gold: Priest + Power Maul + Smash is (S3*2) + 2 = S8, Ap2, I3 hits. With load out, thats 2 attacks base, 3 on the charge with priests. You now have CHEAPER Power Fist Sgts that crap out special rules like no tomorrow and are higher strenght, faster initiative.
So you could take 5 Priests from SoB, 5 Priests from Codex IG, put them into a power blob and ask the ever important question: "Will it blend?"
Mr.Omega wrote: I wonder if anyone will object to me putting down 300 Conscripts, 160 Guardsmen and Company Command Squad on the board as my army at 1750 points.
I have tried it. you will hate it more than your enemy. (not that exact configuration...)
Rostere wrote: [
I won't try to translate the names of the first two, but the last relic mentioned was apparently called "Funerary Mask of Ollanius".
Oh hell no. Not content with messing with my Guard, they're managing to screw up the Black Library novels, - some of the last GW things I read - too.
What's wrong with that? Ollanius is a pretty old part of the Heresy fluff.
Personally, I'm glad Ollanius is still "canonically" (for what can pass as a given definition of canon) regarded as a patron saint of the Imperial Guard (or something along those lines, judging by how he has a relic). Sure, the actual "canon" of what ACTUALLY happened with him (so far as we know) is balls-on slowed and lame, but the Imperial Guard trooper of the 40th millenium doesn't have to know that. Even if Ollanius was actually in truth a superhuman perpetual or whatever other seriousness, the Imperial Guardsman of the present day can hold onto the awesome lie that he was just a normal armsman who by giving his life changed the fate of the Imperium.
...................assuming that's the case here, at least.
Rostere wrote: [
I won't try to translate the names of the first two, but the last relic mentioned was apparently called "Funerary Mask of Ollanius".
Oh hell no. Not content with messing with my Guard, they're managing to screw up the Black Library novels, - some of the last GW things I read - too.
What's wrong with that? Ollanius is a pretty old part of the Heresy fluff.
Personally, I'm glad Ollanius is still "canonically" (for what can pass as a given definition of canon) regarded as a patron saint of the Imperial Guard (or something along those lines, judging by how he has a relic). Sure, the actual "canon" of what ACTUALLY happened with him (so far as we know) is balls-on slowed and lame, but the Imperial Guard trooper of the 40th millenium doesn't have to know that. Even if Ollanius was actually in truth a superhuman perpetual or whatever other seriousness, the Imperial Guardsman of the present day can hold onto the awesome lie that he was just a normal armsman who by giving his life changed the fate of the Imperium.
...................assuming that's the case here, at least.
He is being acknowledged. In my mind, he will always be the lone guardsmen who held the line at the most critical time, regardless of what BL or GW says.
And there better be a good reason for 65pt Chimeras. I will laugh/sigh super hard if my Inquisition Codex gets a stealth update to 65 pts too.
If Inquisition gets an update, then that gives us an idea of how GW plans their releases. In other words, they didn't know they were making a Taurox when they wrote Codex: Inquisition...or at least had no idea what the thing would cost.
Time will tell. They stealth updated the condemer boltgun 2-3 times.
Also, stop getting so excited over the priests, guys. If they are exactly the same as the SoB priests, which this is what it sounds like, war hymns only work in close combat. That being said, I run a BSS with 20 girls, 4 priests, St Celestine, and Coteaz + Xeno Inquisitor to have Divination, Re-roll Armor Saves, Re-roll Wounds, Hit and Run, Rad Grenades, and Psykotroke Grenades. I also include the Liber Heresius to scout the unit forward 6" and my priests get "Litanies of Faith" which allow me to automatically pass all War Hymns checks.
Finally, a slice of fried gold: Priest + Power Maul + Smash is (S3*2) + 2 = S8, Ap2, I3 hits. With load out, thats 2 attacks base, 3 on the charge with priests. You now have CHEAPER Power Fist Sgts that crap out special rules like no tomorrow and are higher strenght, faster initiative.
So you could take 5 Priests from SoB, 5 Priests from Codex IG, put them into a power blob and ask the ever important question: "Will it blend?"
I'm just geeking out that my all carapace vets and 9 sentinel traitor guard army is sounding better and better. I for one am very excited about this new codex.
What's weirding me out about this codex is the strange opposite polarity of the changes.
We have a some great new additions to the book in ways of new orders, warlord traits (possibly the best of all books), and some point reductions on poor units, like sentinels. Cheaper vet doctrines are nice, though largely offset by the lack of a third special weapon. The tank commander option is good to see as well for the tread heads.
On the flip side, we have the culling of half the arty options for no good reason, and the removal of a few characters. Some will be missed more than others, certainly, like poor Marbo and Al'Rahem, but Bastonne could have been made into something awesome instead of ending up in the recycle folder. Then we have the chimera price hike to justify the Taurox. The Taurox is a negative in my book, though I admit some people may like it, so I'll call it a wash. The vendetta nerf was needed, though I'm hesitant to say it may have been overdone by ~10pts.
Its puzzling. Every so often they get something right, and when they do, its pretty damn good. Those warlord traits are what every warlord table should look like (though you should be able to pick instead of roll, but that's a whole different discussion), and the orders were only enhanced. The stormtrooper platoon is also nice to have.
But when they do something wrong, you're just left wondering how they could have possibly came to that conclusion. The arty cull is just bizarre; what a missed opportunity to do something with the basilisk kit. Its almost like they don't want our money. I'm thinking that Ogryn are still going to be useless, rough riders will likely end up being a footnote in the FA slot where the Vendetta will still rule with an iron fist, and ratlings will remain forgotten in the elite section.
Really, I'm just confused. Disappointed as well.
Ah well, gives me a reason to write up a fandex for the Guard the way it should have been.
Maybe they make design decisions using a dartboard or something. Unbeknowest to them, the darts and way the board is set up just coincidentally ended up being weighted towards making the darts constantly land on the "nerf" section for Ogryns. And one almost wonders if a Carnymancer got his hands on the Tyrannid dart board and darts.
Blacksails wrote: What's weirding me out about this codex is the strange opposite polarity of the changes.
We have a some great new additions to the book in ways of new orders, warlord traits (possibly the best of all books), and some point reductions on poor units, like sentinels. Cheaper vet doctrines are nice, though largely offset by the lack of a third special weapon. The tank commander option is good to see as well for the tread heads.
On the flip side, we have the culling of half the arty options for no good reason, and the removal of a few characters. Some will be missed more than others, certainly, like poor Marbo and Al'Rahem, but Bastonne could have been made into something awesome instead of ending up in the recycle folder. Then we have the chimera price hike to justify the Taurox. The Taurox is a negative in my book, though I admit some people may like it, so I'll call it a wash. The vendetta nerf was needed, though I'm hesitant to say it may have been overdone by ~10pts.
Its puzzling. Every so often they get something right, and when they do, its pretty damn good. Those warlord traits are what every warlord table should look like (though you should be able to pick instead of roll, but that's a whole different discussion), and the orders were only enhanced. The stormtrooper platoon is also nice to have.
But when they do something wrong, you're just left wondering how they could have possibly came to that conclusion. The arty cull is just bizarre; what a missed opportunity to do something with the basilisk kit. Its almost like they don't want our money. I'm thinking that Ogryn are still going to be useless, rough riders will likely end up being a footnote in the FA slot where the Vendetta will still rule with an iron fist, and ratlings will remain forgotten in the elite section.
Really, I'm just confused. Disappointed as well.
Ah well, gives me a reason to write up a fandex for the Guard the way it should have been.
It sort of feels like they're trying to rebalance IG with a pivot to infantry rather than artillery and vendettas. Artillery isn't exactly a dynamic part of the game, just sits there. Frankly, my opponents are usually so worried that my basilisk/colossus/medusa never survives to turn 2. That was always the tradeoff, great offense for low cost, but very flimsy for the points cost. The wyvern looks like they want arty to be good against the chaff, but not the elites killers, once those marines get inside your basilisk min 36" range you've got to deal with them in a more conventional manner.
It makes sense, in 6th ed almost all my IG armies are all tanks with 2-3 squads of vets, they might be trying to make the infantry options more enticing. With the new orders, it makes sense.
It'd be nice if we could get ogryns as bodyguards (like Nork) for Commanders, Commissars, and Primaris Psykers. Add lots of combat power and survivability to the HQ choices, even would make sense fluffwise.
Then again, arty technically doesn't have a place in 40k considering the scale. Flyers as well, but I guess that's the nature of 40k.
If 40k removed all arty and flyers and changed the game appropriately, I'd be just fine, but removing some and leaving others (did we anyone want something like the Wyvern?) is strange.
But that's a whole different discussion as well about the scale of 40k.
Here is why vets got a point reduction and less special weapons.
10 man Scion squad kills roughly 4 marines in rapid fire range for 130 points.
An old vet squad with 3 plasma guns kills something closer to 5 marines in their longer rapid fire range for 115 points plus they can threaten higher toughness, vehicles and TEQ. Even with carapace they are only 15 points more than the Scions. They are clearly far and away a better take.
New vet squad with 2 Plasma guns and carapace kill 3 marines for 15 points less than the scion squad. Thus making the decision over which unit to take much harder and less obvious.
Also to be more cynical: the Taurox only has two fire points so if vets had 3 specials nobody would ever put them in the bang bus.
Rob451 wrote: Here is why vets got a point reduction and less special weapons.
10 man Scion squad kills roughly 4 marines in rapid fire range for 130 points.
An old vet squad with 3 plasma guns kills something closer to 5 marines in their longer rapid fire range for 115 points plus they can threaten higher toughness, vehicles and TEQ. Even with carapace they are only 15 points more than the Scions. They are clearly far and away a better take.
New vet squad with 2 Plasma guns and carapace kill 3 marines for 15 points less than the scion squad. Thus making the decision over which unit to take much harder and less obvious.
Also to be more cynical: the Taurox only has two fire points so if vets had 3 specials nobody would ever put them in the bang bus.
Those fire points are also on the sides; so forget about having that nice 360 degrees fire point the chimera have (had?), got to expose the 10AV side armour to fire those special weapons..or dismount by the side doors.
Blacksails wrote: Then again, arty technically doesn't have a place in 40k considering the scale. Flyers as well, but I guess that's the nature of 40k.
If 40k removed all arty and flyers and changed the game appropriately, I'd be just fine, but removing some and leaving others (did we anyone want something like the Wyvern?) is strange.
But that's a whole different discussion as well about the scale of 40k.
I've noticed a lot of neutrality/hostility towards the Wyvern. Is there a reason for that or are the bittervets being bitter? Looks to me like you can decimate a large squad or two a turn if you take a squadron of three provided you keep them alive.
I've noticed a lot of neutrality/hostility towards the Wyvern. Is there a reason for that or are the bittervets being bitter? Looks to me like you can decimate a large squad or two a turn if you take a squadron of three provided you keep them alive.
The issue comes from the fact that all the other arty pieces that did similar jobs to what the Wyvern does now have been cut. Now we have only have one option; its not bad at dealing with lightly armoured, low toughness chaff, but that's what the Griffon was for anyways. An accurate, large blast was better for putting wounds down if you're opponent is properly spaced out. Then, we lost the colossus, which was our cover ignoring, AP3 MEQ slayer. Finally, the Medusa was nice to punch a hole in something really big.
Instead, we have the Wyvern. Its not bad at shooting at Ork mobs and Nid gribblies, but everything else in the codex does the exact same thing in lesser contested FoC slots.
You have to remember that shooting under minimum range only means that you scatter full distance rather than subtracting your BS skill (so you still have at minimum of a 33% chance to get a spot on hit).
Another possibility to keep in mind, is while those arty were good...the Escalation book opened up alot of options that did their jobs, but better. colossus? Stormsword & Hellhammer do it with a higher strength, lower AP, larger blast, just at a "shorter" range of 36" on a faster, more durable platform. Medusa? Take a shadowsword and watch enemy armour disappear.
The current crop of rumors suggest we're "losing" these vehicle options right before an edition change that could possibly make escalation/stronghold assault unavoidable
In addition, it give a theory as to why we didn't receive an extra large assault transport for the Ogryn. We already have one called the "Stormlord". Carrying capacity of 40 models, counts as open topped for disembarking and embarking, but doesn't suffer the damage penalty.
Blacksails wrote: Escalation isn't a replacement for a balanced Codex with units we've had for a few editions.
I never said it would be a good decision, or a balanced one. I am merely suggesting that this could be part of the thought processes behind the scenes.
We already know they want people to play with super-heavies...
Honestly I imagine most of the hostility is because we lost the other arty options. Before it was "confirmed" that we lost a few of the arty options, people were just indifferent. Now that they're "definitely" gone, people are more hostile as it feels like we lost 3 cool tanks for a cheap cash in just because it has an "official" kit and the others didn't.
I don't see hostility here. I see a lot of folks scratching their head or are, like me, just on the side of not giving a damn.
I bought 700pts of Infinity for about $300. That's two tournament sized armies, essentially, from one faction so I have a ton of flexibility.
Setting aside aesthetics and fluff and what not, how much more of this rapid fire and "delete stuff" from books will other vets of the game take their money elsewhere? I know a folks staying in 40k are shifting their purchases "over seas," to save money. I'm pretty much done with GW. I'll run my guardsmen as acolytes from Inquisition and move on, I suppose.
I know artillery doesn't fit the scale of 40k, but that's always been a secret desire for me to have a 9 artillery battery list just hammering home the opponent with blobs of men to throw at them. I guess I'll never get that list now.
MrMoustaffa wrote: Honestly I imagine most of the hostility is because we lost the other arty options. Before it was "confirmed" that we lost a few of the arty options, people were just indifferent. Now that they're "definitely" gone, people are more hostile as it feels like we lost 3 cool tanks for a cheap cash in just because it has an "official" kit and the others didn't.
I don't get the hate though, they are still a legal option even though they are not in the codex proper! Ever heard of IA 1: 2nd edition? Remember the GW owns Forge World, so if it has the '40k aproved' stamp, its approved. Just because the book has Forge World on doesn't mean you should be discouraged from using your Medusas.
Dravenguild wrote: Do we know about the allies table? Storm troopers codex lacked chaos allies, I hope they don't kick us out of all the fun with Astra Militarum
What did you expect, Battle Brothers with an organization that is made up of people who are raised with the people who would later become Commissars, Priests, and Sororitas?
The Airman wrote: I've noticed a lot of neutrality/hostility towards the Wyvern. Is there a reason for that or are the bittervets being bitter? Looks to me like you can decimate a large squad or two a turn if you take a squadron of three provided you keep them alive.
I don't really care whether or not it is effective, I just hate how tedious the multiple barrage rules are. Correctly working out the results of 12 twin-linked barrage blasts will take an annoying amount of time. You have to work out how many models each template hits, then allocate and remove models for each template separately. It isn't so bad with a Manticore or a battery of Basilisks, but anyone who has had to fire a thud gun battery will tell you it is a headache. In fact if I ever come up against three Wyverns then I am taking them out first, just so that they stop annoying me.
MrMoustaffa wrote: Honestly I imagine most of the hostility is because we lost the other arty options. Before it was "confirmed" that we lost a few of the arty options, people were just indifferent. Now that they're "definitely" gone, people are more hostile as it feels like we lost 3 cool tanks for a cheap cash in just because it has an "official" kit and the others didn't.
I don't get the hate though, they are still a legal option even though they are not in the codex proper! Ever heard of IA 1: 2nd edition? Remember the GW owns Forge World, so if it has the '40k aproved' stamp, its approved. Just because the book has Forge World on doesn't mean you should be discouraged from using your Medusas.
Not everyone will let you take FW though.
I guarantee you there will be a few players out there who will have models effectively removed, because their group won't let them use the exact same rules they had before because the rules now come from FW.
It probably won't be a lot, but I guarantee you there will be people who will say "I'm sorry, is that tank still in the codex? Then no, you can't play it. I don't care how many FW books you have."
After all, isn't this what happened the first time the Griffon went FW only?
It probably won't be a lot, but I guarantee you there will be people who will say "I'm sorry, is that tank still in the codex? Then no, you can't play it. I don't care how many FW books you have."
After all, isn't this what happened the first time the Griffon went FW only?
Do people actually say that in a casual setting? I don't even really play Warhammer 40k and that comes off to me like something only a real jack ass would say.
In a tournament setting or a more official competition, that's another thing entirely, of course.
MrMoustaffa wrote: Honestly I imagine most of the hostility is because we lost the other arty options. Before it was "confirmed" that we lost a few of the arty options, people were just indifferent. Now that they're "definitely" gone, people are more hostile as it feels like we lost 3 cool tanks for a cheap cash in just because it has an "official" kit and the others didn't.
I don't get the hate though, they are still a legal option even though they are not in the codex proper! Ever heard of IA 1: 2nd edition? Remember the GW owns Forge World, so if it has the '40k aproved' stamp, its approved. Just because the book has Forge World on doesn't mean you should be discouraged from using your Medusas.
Not everyone will let you take FW though.
I guarantee you there will be a few players out there who will have models effectively removed, because their group won't let them use the exact same rules they had before because the rules now come from FW.
It probably won't be a lot, but I guarantee you there will be people who will say "I'm sorry, is that tank still in the codex? Then no, you can't play it. I don't care how many FW books you have."
After all, isn't this what happened the first time the Griffon went FW only?
I know, its just so annoying.
I mean (and i wish i had the Joker for this), people play Triptide Taudar and Tri-drakes and nobody really bats and eye (they maybe annoyed afterwords). Play against a now FW only medusa spam list and everyone loses their minds.
And the 'FW crap is so OP' excuse sucks, FW balance is all over the place just like regular GW balance, maybe even less so. The next time someone complains about a R'vana I'll tell them about the O'vesa star or the Flying Circus.
MrMoustaffa wrote: Honestly I imagine most of the hostility is because we lost the other arty options. Before it was "confirmed" that we lost a few of the arty options, people were just indifferent. Now that they're "definitely" gone, people are more hostile as it feels like we lost 3 cool tanks for a cheap cash in just because it has an "official" kit and the others didn't.
I don't get the hate though, they are still a legal option even though they are not in the codex proper! Ever heard of IA 1: 2nd edition? Remember the GW owns Forge World, so if it has the '40k aproved' stamp, its approved. Just because the book has Forge World on doesn't mean you should be discouraged from using your Medusas.
Not everyone will let you take FW though.
I guarantee you there will be a few players out there who will have models effectively removed, because their group won't let them use the exact same rules they had before because the rules now come from FW.
It probably won't be a lot, but I guarantee you there will be people who will say "I'm sorry, is that tank still in the codex? Then no, you can't play it. I don't care how many FW books you have."
After all, isn't this what happened the first time the Griffon went FW only?
I know, its just so annoying.
I mean (and i wish i had the Joker for this), people play Triptide Taudar and Tri-drakes and nobody really bats and eye (they maybe annoyed afterwords). Play against a now FW only medusa spam list and everyone loses their minds.
And the 'FW crap is so OP' excuse sucks, FW balance is all over the place just like regular GW balance, maybe even less so. The next time someone complains about a R'vana I'll tell them about the O'vesa star or the Flying Circus.
Since the best solution for a broken game is to break it further.
Every dex has been getting a big monster or machine. A new toy if you will. Where is the IG love in that regard? A new flyer and/or big tank would of been nice.
Tomb King wrote: Every dex has been getting a big monster or machine. A new toy if you will. Where is the IG love in that regard? A new flyer and/or big tank would of been nice.
Tomb King wrote: Every dex has been getting a big monster or machine. A new toy if you will. Where is the IG love in that regard? A new flyer and/or big tank would of been nice.
I sort of like the Wyvern from a background perspective. The presence of artillery has always felt a bit weird on the scale of 40k. A Chimera based mortar (even a ridiculous one) feels more like a it could be a mortar section for your infantry company, or more likely, the battalion mortars attached to your formation. That's only one level up in organization, and more of a close support weapon than the long-range barrage of division -level artillery. Not that 40k is in any way realistic or making of sense, but it's sort of neat that it feels right.
Tomb King wrote: Every dex has been getting a big monster or machine. A new toy if you will. Where is the IG love in that regard? A new flyer and/or big tank would of been nice.
Imperial Knights?
Separate army.
Separate codex... lol. Imperial Knights have their own codex.
I really thought they were going to bring a big tank in for this release. Something with 4 HP etc...
TheSilo wrote: It sort of feels like they're trying to rebalance IG with a pivot to infantry rather than artillery and vendettas.
I think it's the exact opposite, the new rules are forcing IG even more to being an army of tanks supported by a few infantry squads camping on objectives and desperately praying that they don't attract too much attention. Vets have been crippled, penal legion are gone, outflanking platoons are gone, SITNW is gone, platoons still suffer from the fundamental problem of being a unit with mediocre offense and no way to move up from behind the ADL, and storm troopers/rough riders/etc don't score. Pretty much everything that made IG infantry fun and effective is either nerfed into uselessness or removed entirely, leaving only the tanks and aircraft.
On the good side, now I can take a Stormblade in a 1500 point game and make up for my poor never-to-be-used-again vets.
I think the reason veteran players (including myself) are upset about the rumors is because it eliminates units that we like, used, and probably scratch built.
I bought two griffins back in third edition. I couldn't use them in fourth, got them back in 5th and lost them again in 6th.
I really loved the idea of massed infantry and scratch built an Al' Raheem for outflanking. Now I can't use him.
Marbo was a fun addition and shook things up. He did some wacky things, and not just with the demo charge. Now he's gone.
I'm ok with the vendetta increase, I think every IG player understands why.
It used to be that you could make the guard into any kind of force you wanted, from any kind of planet you wanted, and still have a good, fun game. Now I don't know.
I'm holding my breath and hoping that the codex allows the same feel, I guess we'll know this weekend.
Biophysical wrote: I sort of like the Wyvern from a background perspective. The presence of artillery has always felt a bit weird on the scale of 40k. A Chimera based mortar (even a ridiculous one) feels more like a it could be a mortar section for your infantry company, or more likely, the battalion mortars attached to your formation. That's only one level up in organization, and more of a close support weapon than the long-range barrage of division -level artillery. Not that 40k is in any way realistic or making of sense, but it's sort of neat that it feels right.
But even then, the Medusa and Griffon would still have a legitimate reason to be there.
The Medusa is a purpose built siege weapon designed to crack bunkers at close range, and the Griffon is a light artillery piece designed to be mobile so it can keep up with the infantry.
Honestly, they have a more legitimate reason to be in the codex than the Basilisk, Deathstrike, or Manticore, since you would have a good chance of actually seeing Medusas and Griffons at the scale of conflict the typical 40k game represents.
Biophysical wrote: I sort of like the Wyvern from a background perspective. The presence of artillery has always felt a bit weird on the scale of 40k. A Chimera based mortar (even a ridiculous one) feels more like a it could be a mortar section for your infantry company, or more likely, the battalion mortars attached to your formation. That's only one level up in organization, and more of a close support weapon than the long-range barrage of division -level artillery. Not that 40k is in any way realistic or making of sense, but it's sort of neat that it feels right.
But we already had a Chimera-based mortar: the Griffon. The Wyvern is a completely pointless unit that only has a place because GW removed the existing unit that filled its role, requiring you to buy new tanks unless you're lucky enough to play in an area that isn't infested by TFGs and their no-FW rules.
Believe me, I would trade Wyverns for Griffons in a heartbeat, I own the old 3rd edition model, and I hate the whole idea of swapping on of the very first models I bought for some hideous piece of trash that lazy designers decided to make as an alternative to Hydras. I also hate having to buy a forgeworld book just to use stuff I already could use. I also hate any time units get dropped, because a lot of money, time, and energy goes into buying and modeling these guys.
However, if I can put all that aside, a regular mortar sized support vehicle is kind of cool (the Griffon gun is massive for a mortar). I certainly won't buy Wyvern/Hydras on moral grounds, but I could convert some Wyverns to add some more cheap, light artillery to my army.
Oh, and having a model isn't a case for being deleted. For SoB, we lost Arch Confessor Kyrnov who had a (pretty cool, IMO) model and he was deleted out of our book for no reason. He was lumped into the points cost for Jacobus and he saw a points increase because of it.
So reduced options. "Streamlined" as they might say.
Tomb King wrote: Every dex has been getting a big monster or machine. A new toy if you will. Where is the IG love in that regard? A new flyer and/or big tank would of been nice.
IG don't need another big monster thing.
I point everyone to the Baneblade and other tanks of its class. They are formidable as they are.
A new flyer?
Nope... They don't need any more of those either.
All this belly aching about the new book as its not even out yet.
Did you veteran Guard players expect to be able to run the same armies again at the same power level?
Guard were going to get a nerf and there was obviously going to be a new way to play the army.
Tau got stronger, but the old units and options were nerfed hard. Eldar got stronger and some old units that were very mediocre got really good. Even Marines got a change of stuff to a point.
What are Guard getting? Tank Commanders for a start. They could be über, but until we know the points, the jury is out. Also... Paaaaaaask!!! Pask is going to be insane. Cheap Autocannon Sentinels are looking good IMO.
Yes the points for the Chimera went up and the Vendetta has been hit hard, but they were too cheap and OP respectively in the last book.
I'm not a Guard player, but I will be one from Saturday onwards. The new book is controversial in its changes, but all this doomsaying is crazy when for little effort, changes to your armies can be made.
As for the missing and removed units, I agree, there is no excuse for it and I totally understand why you veteran IG players are pissed.
Yea, 2+ on infantry and AP 4 from a griffon is waaaay better than S4 AP6 shredding. Even if the wyvern is cheap, the problem is that it still eats a heavy support slot. Might be worth the points, but I'd rather take another leman Russ, or put the points into a mortar squad.
Biophysical wrote: I sort of like the Wyvern from a background perspective. The presence of artillery has always felt a bit weird on the scale of 40k. A Chimera based mortar (even a ridiculous one) feels more like a it could be a mortar section for your infantry company, or more likely, the battalion mortars attached to your formation. That's only one level up in organization, and more of a close support weapon than the long-range barrage of division -level artillery. Not that 40k is in any way realistic or making of sense, but it's sort of neat that it feels right.
Except the 3 artillery tanks we lost are ARE the short ranged ones. The Medusa isn't a long ranged barrage weapon, it's a direct firing short to medium range tank. The Griffin is just a heavy mortar, the Colossus is a REALLY heavy mortar.
The one that stayed, the Basilisk, is the long ranged artillery cannon that really has no place on a standard battlefield and would be better suited to something that sits far off in the distance (even in game it has a 36" minimum range!). Even back as a 10yo kid when I started 40k in the mid 90's my first thought upon seeing a Basilisk painted up as part of one of the store armies was "wow, that's cool, but how does it even work with that giant ship's cannon".
So a few pages back it was said how Pask can do different things in different tanks. Executioner could shoot a large blast plasma shot with blinds and gets hot....I may be missing something but when is it ever better to shoot 1 large blast instead of 3 small? I'm sure the 3 small shots will all have gets hot now but it's pretty rare for a tank to burn itself. (Need to roll a 1 followed by a 3 or less on another d6.)
I love the rending on the punisher, I always thought the punisher needed rending anyway to illustrate the way a gatling gun can cut things in half. I am planning on getting Pask with a second in command tank filling up my Hvy with yet more tanks since my colossus are gone, maybe use my 3 scratch built hydras if they can shoot at ground targets normally.
Too bad Chenkov is gone now that conscripts are cheaper....
Edit:The colossus had a range of 24" - 240" only the deathstrike had a longer range of infinite. IMHO the colossus was by far the best and most usefull artillery.
Tomb King wrote: Every dex has been getting a big monster or machine. A new toy if you will. Where is the IG love in that regard? A new flyer and/or big tank would of been nice.
Imperial Knights?
Separate army.
Actually, from a certain point of view [/jedi master] that's the new "right" way of playing, yesterday went to a store kind of far from my place and two guys were starting a match. When I asked about their armies one told me Chaos Demons and the other said it was difficult to explain but primary detachment IG. Then he proceeded to put on the table a Baneblade, BA allies, an dataslate and then I left shaking my head without wanting to know if he was using fortifications or not.
I'm telling this because this is not GW saying buy the latest toy but rather a segment of the player base deciding that they want to have everything and the kitchen sink in their army and to them armies are no longer a thing from one codex but a menagerie. I don't agree with this way of thinking but apparently it's becoming more common and either as I've been saying previously in this thread either we start talking with other how we feel comfortable playing or our enjoyment of 40K will follow GW's share price.
So again from a certain point of view Imperial Knights are the IG big tanks and when Peregrine decries that he can't get people to allow FW (especially things that used to be in a dex) I want to go Picard at the dumbassery.
I don't know why you think that. The Griffon's gun is no bigger than one of the Wyvern's, and the shells (which fit the scale of the gun) are appropriately sized compared to real mortar shells.
Guard were going to get a nerf and there was obviously going to be a new way to play the army.
Yes the points for the Chimera went up and the Vendetta has been hit hard, but they were too cheap and OP respectively in the last book.
I am going to say it, anyone who thought the chimera was OP was bad at 40k.
Sure, in 5th ed, but in 6th, hullpoints and better AT guns brought them down to being reasonable. Chimeras were troop transports that excelled at what they did, which was transport troops. AV 10 sides and rear meant all you had to do was to flank them and they would go away.
There is no reason for the price increase besides selling the new transport. Removing options that are standard on many other Imperial Vehicles (smoke launchers and searchlights) is dumb. I am worried that the "lasguns can fire" part of the chimera rumors means that you get to fire lasguns out the back. That nerf would effectively cripple the chimera.
I was mostly hoping the Thunderbolt would go in to the codex and not be completely and utterly crap like it is at the moment.
All this belly aching about the new book as its not even out yet.
So are you gonna stop yer bitchin when the book comes out and people are still complaining about the exact same things that are now?
Did you veteran Guard players expect to be able to run the same armies again at the same power level?
No, but it would be nice to at least play with the same models instead of having them REMOVED from the codex.
Guard were going to get a nerf and there was obviously going to be a new way to play the army.
I'm not sure why guard needed a nerf. Other than Vendettas was there really any problem with the existing guard codex? Also "new way to play the army", as I've said earlier, I DON'T want OP monobuilds. The same as the 'nid Codex, I want balance and diversity. I really don't care we got the ultra competitive Skyblight monobuild, and if guard get their own OP build, I also won't care.
Also... Paaaaaaask!!! Pask is going to be insane. Cheap Autocannon Sentinels are looking good IMO.
What happened to waiting until the codex comes out before making comments? Anyway, isn't Pask rumoured to be 70pts? Any build that uses him is going to be 240+pts. Yeah, he's going to be cool, yeah, I'm going to probably have a Pask tank, but do we really think a 240pt Leman Russ that can die in the first turn or couple of turns is going to be a game changer? Pask seems more "fun" than "game changer".
But yes, probably the main exciting thing in the coming codex for me is the Tank Commanders, excited to see how they turn out.
Yes the points for the Chimera went up and the Vendetta has been hit hard, but they were too cheap and OP respectively in the last book.
Really? Chimeras were too OP'd? Sorry I'm not seeing it. They were pretty easy to kill and only packed a small punch. You can compare them to other tank transports, but most tank transports aren't awesome now either. Chimeras, in my eyes, weren't OP'd, they were "viable", but not OP'd.
That's my two cents anywho.
That's cool... I will admit after the 'nid dex I'm probably overly pessimistic.
portugus wrote: I love the rending on the punisher, I always thought the punisher needed rending anyway to illustrate the way a gatling gun can cut things in half.
In Pask's case, that'll be to cut a Land Raider in half by glancing it to death.
Puscifer wrote: Did you veteran Guard players expect to be able to run the same armies again at the same power level?
Maybe not at the same power level, but I don't expect my army to instantly become illegal because the new codex removed entire units and took away options from others.
Guard were going to get a nerf and there was obviously going to be a new way to play the army.
Sorry, but that's just ridiculous. IG don't need a nerf because, outside of the Vendetta, IG aren't all that powerful. Don't let memories of early 5th edition interfere with your judgement.
Tau got stronger, but the old units and options were nerfed hard.
Not really. The only thing Tau lost was the ability to move and shoot effectively with their tanks, and IMO that has more to do with their rule authors being incompetent morons and not realizing how important the ability was than a deliberate decision to nerf their tanks. I mean, Hammerheads even got an awesome new character while the Sky Ray became a proper AA unit, so they clearly want you to use those tanks.
What are Guard getting? Tank Commanders for a start. They could be über, but until we know the points, the jury is out. Also... Paaaaaaask!!! Pask is going to be insane.
That's still just one tank, in an army that often runs out of points to spend on LRBTs before it runs out of FOC slots. It's a nice option, but it doesn't make up for all the things we're losing. And, more importantly, it turns IG into even more of a "spam tanks, table your opponent, who cares about objectives" army. Giving IG more tanks while turning our infantry into useless paperweights was not the change we needed.
If Pask turns out to be 70pts as leaked, I'm not sure he'll be any better than he currently is.
He has some better abilities, but he's also 20pts more. He's a tough sell in the current book, and frankly, with his new abilities, even 50pts would be steep.
It is neat that he does different things based on the tank you drop him in.
Why does GW do this? They have these really cool ideas, but are either executed so poorly or come out half-baked you're just left wondering what it is they do in the office.
Every time I think of one of the positives in this book, I find myself with something equally negative or disappointing. I'll need the book to really get a feel, but its not shaping up the way I hoped.
And if there's DLC, err, 'Dataslates' for units/characters that were cut from the base codex, I'll figuratively lose my gak. And by that, I mean I'll probably post something on this forum and shake my head vigorously at GW's webpage.
Biophysical wrote: I sort of like the Wyvern from a background perspective. The presence of artillery has always felt a bit weird on the scale of 40k. A Chimera based mortar (even a ridiculous one) feels more like a it could be a mortar section for your infantry company, or more likely, the battalion mortars attached to your formation. That's only one level up in organization, and more of a close support weapon than the long-range barrage of division -level artillery. Not that 40k is in any way realistic or making of sense, but it's sort of neat that it feels right.
Except the 3 artillery tanks we lost are ARE the short ranged ones. The Medusa isn't a long ranged barrage weapon, it's a direct firing short to medium range tank. The Griffin is just a heavy mortar, the Colossus is a REALLY heavy mortar.
The one that stayed, the Basilisk, is the long ranged artillery cannon that really has no place on a standard battlefield and would be better suited to something that sits far off in the distance (even in game it has a 36" minimum range!). Even back as a 10yo kid when I started 40k in the mid 90's my first thought upon seeing a Basilisk painted up as part of one of the store armies was "wow, that's cool, but how does it even work with that giant ship's cannon".
I suppose they could adapt by increasing the role of Master of Ordnance and other forward observers. Make them an option for PCS squads, or separate forward observer teams (like HWT, but call in earthshaker shells). That would make PCS way more powerful if they could take Masters of Ordnance. More squishy than tank artillery (arguably), fewer points, more scatter. Fits pretty well with the real-life role of artillery.
Proposed special rule zeroing in/danger close. Your shots get more accurate as the observer helps the arty crews zero in on their target. If the master of ordnance called in a shot last turn, he receives +1 BS this turn.
And if there's DLC, err, 'Dataslates' for units/characters that were cut from the base codex, I'll figuratively lose my gak. And by that, I mean I'll probably post something on this forum and shake my head vigorously at GW's webpage.
Naughty, naughty wargame company! Go sit in the corner until you've learned your lesson!
(I'll be joining you in that reaction, should such events come to pass.)
And if there's DLC, err, 'Dataslates' for units/characters that were cut from the base codex, I'll figuratively lose my gak. And by that, I mean I'll probably post something on this forum and shake my head vigorously at GW's webpage.
Naughty, naughty wargame company! Go sit in the corner until you've learned your lesson!
(I'll be joining you in that reaction, should such events come to pass.)
Well, I can make some hyperbolic claim of flipping tables at the nearest GW, but realistically I'll just post something about my disappointment and continue to not spend money towards GW.
To add onto Peregrine's last bit about command tanks, giving us options to field Russes in the HQ slot to free up heavy slots doesn't really matter as much when we lose a solid 1/4th of our heavy support choices, especially ones that tended to work decently well with russ support (or at least, that's what I thought)
Blacksails wrote: If Pask turns out to be 70pts as leaked, I'm not sure he'll be any better than he currently is.
I think he's much better now. Pask is almost mandatory in the current codex for some of the variants, since the increase in firepower from BS 4 is way more than the increase in point cost. Now you pay 20 points more, but get even more special rules and a critical FOC swap. Freeing up another heavy support slot is nice, but the important thing is that now you can take your mandatory warlord HQ as a powerful AV 14 tank, not a squishy command squad. TBH it's one of the very few things they got right with this codex.
Blacksails wrote: If Pask turns out to be 70pts as leaked, I'm not sure he'll be any better than he currently is.
I think he's much better now. Pask is almost mandatory in the current codex for some of the variants, since the increase in firepower from BS 4 is way more than the increase in point cost. Now you pay 20 points more, but get even more special rules and a critical FOC swap. Freeing up another heavy support slot is nice, but the important thing is that now you can take your mandatory warlord HQ as a powerful AV 14 tank, not a squishy command squad. TBH it's one of the very few things they got right with this codex.
Right, I keep forgetting that he's moved to HQ now. Does he get orders now too?
I'm still leery about fielding a 240pts+ tank, as it still feels like a lot of points in a single unit, but the other bonuses help.
Any changes to the Leman Russ anywhere? I looked around best I could... really hoping that something allows a LR that doesn't move to fire battlecannon and other blasts again... poor LR.
@ Did you veteran Guard players expect to be able to run the same armies again at the same power level?
Guard were going to get a nerf and there was obviously going to be a new way to play the army.
Have you been playing in 6th edition... we have been nerfed since it dropped. We have vulnerable scoring units that isnt fixed and we just lost are best maneuverability option in the vendetta and are next best ride just got a 10pt hike. So forgive us if we are a little upset at still being unable to get that objective in your deployment zone. Also dropping the characters isn't permanent... there will be probably 3 more guard supplements.
Against my better judgement, I picked up some of the Scions today if anyone wants to know about the physical kit.
They don't turn out too bad once assembled, but they are kind of a pain in the dick to put together, primarily because the backpack, both arms, and gun all have to fit together *just so*. You can't just pick any set of guns and arms backpacks, and slap them together, they physically won't fit or you end up with sillyness like cables that don't connect. Only the fact that they're suck thick, easily handled plastic, makes them less infuriating than the DKoK Grenadiers.
There's an absurd ton of extras, there's more parts still on the sprue than I actually used, this set easily could have been split into two different boxed sets, as if you're just making 10man command Scion squads you're gonna end up with enough parts to kit out 4 command squads.
Russes never screamed to me as "Oh My God!" to be honest. Making one 70 pts more and moving it to the HQ slot is kinda bad. You can't really "look out, sir" squadron wounds and so much stuff ignores cover these that I'd be scared to invest in him. The Beatstick Boss from Space Marines is about the same price and far more resilient, more killing, and even has his own "pie plate" to dish up first turn.
It's weird that PBS are going to be just "Psykers." Will there be a minimum size and then "X more Psykers increases Mastery Level" style thing?
Out of all the things to keep, Rough Riders seem to be the weirdest. In all my travels, I don't think I've seen them used once. And I saw Mandrakes played once!
People should remember that these are only rumors, untill Saturday. I'm know we won't like some things GW will do but nobody likes change. For those who really dont like anything from GW anymore i will see you on eBay
Dravenguild wrote: Do we know about the allies table? Storm troopers codex lacked chaos allies, I hope they don't kick us out of all the fun with Astra Militarum
What did you expect, Battle Brothers with an organization that is made up of people who are raised with the people who would later become Commissars, Priests, and Sororitas?
I wasn't expecting a smartass remark from you, shill.
3 point conscripts are going to ruin my life. The new face of the power blob is 100 conscripts shooting then running d6" forwardwith priests hidden inside, 40 guardsmen behind the, and 2 pcs for orders on top of the ccs. Total for the 150 guardsmen in 2 platoons is 560 points. A mass conscript charge doesn't even need power weapons with hatred and shred.
Vets became a lot cheaper. They lost a special weapon but are 10 points cheaper, forward doctrine costs a melta gun, and caraprice costs a plasma gun. Does anybody know the price of demo?
schadenfreude wrote: Vets became a lot cheaper. They lost a special weapon but are 10 points cheaper, forward doctrine costs a melta gun, and caraprice costs a plasma gun.
Cheaper, but much less effective. Three melta guns for 100 points is way better than two for 80. But when you consider the cost of the Chimera it gets even worse. A melta vet squad in the current codex is three melta guns in a Chimera for 155 points. Now you get two melta guns in a Chimera for 145 points. That's a huge drop in effectiveness for only a very small cost reduction. I'm not (yet) going to say that vets will never be used again, but this is a crippling nerf that is absolutely stupid. GW needs to fire the moron responsible for this.
As for the defensive upgrades, they're still wasted points because it's still a 10-man squad of guardsmen that depends on its transport for protection. And now they're really wasted points because you don't even have three guns to protect anymore.
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TheKbob wrote: Making one 70 pts more and moving it to the HQ slot is kinda bad.
It's a huge upgrade. BS 4 and a twin-linked or rending main gun is amazing, along with (IIRC) preferred enemy and tank hunters. Do the math and the percentage increase in firepower is usually going to be quite a bit more than the percentage increase in cost. Meanwhile the HQ move solves one of the current problems with IG: the squishy HQ that is pretty much a free VP for killing the warlord. Now instead of a guardsman your warlord is an AV 14 tank.
410mcollins wrote: People should remember that these are only rumors, untill Saturday. I'm know we won't like some things GW will do but nobody likes change. For those who really dont like anything from GW anymore i will see you on eBay
I think that goes without saying. If it turns out we've all been hoodwinked, then clearly many of the opinions portrayed here are baseless.
schadenfreude wrote:3 point conscripts are going to ruin my life. The new face of the power blob is 100 conscripts shooting then running d6" forwardwith priests hidden inside, 40 guardsmen behind the, and 2 pcs for orders on top of the ccs. Total for the 150 guardsmen in 2 platoons is 560 points. A mass conscript charge doesn't even need power weapons with hatred and shred.
Even if it was the most effective army in the world, screw that! Moving 150 models would take frakking ages.
Agamemnon2 wrote:
410mcollins wrote: People should remember that these are only rumors, untill Saturday. I'm know we won't like some things GW will do but nobody likes change. For those who really dont like anything from GW anymore i will see you on eBay
I think that goes without saying. If it turns out we've all been hoodwinked, then clearly many of the opinions portrayed here are baseless.
I hope we'll all be pleasantly surprised... at this point I highly doubt it though. Especially since we've seen several pages from the Spanish version and a couple of pages from what appears to be the ipad version, at this point you'd think most the rumours are probably right.
schadenfreude wrote: Vets became a lot cheaper. They lost a special weapon but are 10 points cheaper, forward doctrine costs a melta gun, and caraprice costs a plasma gun.
Cheaper, but much less effective. Three melta guns for 100 points is way better than two for 80. But when you consider the cost of the Chimera it gets even worse. A melta vet squad in the current codex is three melta guns in a Chimera for 155 points. Now you get two melta guns in a Chimera for 145 points. That's a huge drop in effectiveness for only a very small cost reduction. I'm not (yet) going to say that vets will never be used again, but this is a crippling nerf that is absolutely stupid. GW needs to fire the moron responsible for this.
No, I welcome this nerf. Everyone and their grandmother was spamming meltavets in chimeras ever since the IG codex released in 2009. The idea that you basically have a tank that can drive up and fire 3 S8 AP1 shots at BS4 without even disembarking (so you can keep that carapace upgrade to yourself) would even make Space Marine players blush. To the point where regular IG infantry squads werent even considered. 6th nerfed mech lists (incl. "you arent scoring unless you disembark") and made the gunline viable, but I think removing 1 special weapon seals the deal.
schadenfreude wrote: Vets became a lot cheaper. They lost a special weapon but are 10 points cheaper, forward doctrine costs a melta gun, and caraprice costs a plasma gun.
Cheaper, but much less effective. Three melta guns for 100 points is way better than two for 80. But when you consider the cost of the Chimera it gets even worse. A melta vet squad in the current codex is three melta guns in a Chimera for 155 points. Now you get two melta guns in a Chimera for 145 points. That's a huge drop in effectiveness for only a very small cost reduction. I'm not (yet) going to say that vets will never be used again, but this is a crippling nerf that is absolutely stupid. GW needs to fire the moron responsible for this.
No, I welcome this nerf. Everyone and their grandmother was spamming meltavets in chimeras ever since the IG codex released in 2009. The idea that you basically have a tank that can drive up and fire 3 S8 AP1 shots at BS4 would even make Space Marine players blush. To the point where regular IG infantry squads werent even considered. 6th nerfed mech lists and made the gunline viable, but I think removing 1 special weapon seals the deal.
Actually I agree that Vets needed a rebalance against regular infantry platoons and don't really mind the reduction in special weapons, they didn't really need to increase the cost of the Chimera in the process though.
I think that if you somehow manage to allow an AV 12/10/10 vehicle that can only fire snapshots at cruising speed to get within 12 inches of something you really want to not die, it kind of deserves to die.
Vets can probably still get their third special weapon back with a ministorum priest. In every Codex to date where his revamped version appeared he got the option for at least a plasma gun iirc, its certainly so in Inquisition.
BlaxicanX wrote: I think that if you somehow manage to allow an AV 12/10/10 vehicle that can only fire snapshots at cruising speed to get within 12 inches of something you really want to not die, it kind of deserves to die.
And, furthermore it's only 3 shots. At BS3.
yeah one is no problem, but if there are usually 4 coming at you, each being able to move 6" and still fire 3 BS4 S8 AP1 shots, and with 6th edition allowing them to make an 18" sprint on turn 1, you bet they'll find their targets.
And the fact that the Chimeras themselves could be equipped with Heavy Flamers to take care of GEQ means this unit was arguably flawless. Now if GW hadnt broken Eldar with the Wave Serpent, I'd actually think they're trying to fix things.
BlaxicanX wrote: I think that if you somehow manage to allow an AV 12/10/10 vehicle that can only fire snapshots at cruising speed to get within 12 inches of something you really want to not die, it kind of deserves to die.
Erm, yeah, if it was 1 tank with 12/10/10 with 3 meltas/plasmas contained within, sure. But people often took 3+ of them, plus some Vendettas with melta vets, along side some flame shooting tanks to make sure you're well and truly target saturated. And then once you kill the Chimera(s), the vets don't just vanish, they can still suicide advance toward your armour to get in melta range.
And, furthermore it's only 3 shots. At BS3.
We're talking about vets here, they're Bs4.
Melta vets in Chimeras were definitely spammed more than they deserved, but the changes we have received I don't really think that we are getting any better balance because Vets have had a points drop and the Chimera a points rise, making regular Infantry platoons in Chimeras even less appealing than they were before.
I think the idea was to make vets in chimeras a viable option, instead of a mandatory must-have.
Problem is, as AllSeeingSkink pointed out, regular Guardsmen in Chimeras are costlier now for absolutely no reason other than the Chimera perhaps being a powerfully armed transport if you've got an opponent who is daft enough to only keep targeting its front armor.
Anti-tank veterans may have been nerfed, but anti-infantry ones seem to have got a bit better, assuming that the Sergeant can take a boltgun for 1 point like the new infantry squad sergeant can.
I don't much mind removal of the artillery tanks. It was unnecessary, but on the other hand they're still perfectly usable with FW rules, so it really doesn't matter. Makes even certain sense, FW kits -> FW rules.
However, poor penal legion! Are they really gone? I know they were bad, but I converted models for them, damn it!
Vaktathi wrote: Against my better judgement, I picked up some of the Scions today if anyone wants to know about the physical kit.
They don't turn out too bad once assembled, but they are kind of a pain in the dick to put together, primarily because the backpack, both arms, and gun all have to fit together *just so*. You can't just pick any set of guns and arms backpacks, and slap them together, they physically won't fit or you end up with sillyness like cables that don't connect. Only the fact that they're suck thick, easily handled plastic, makes them less infuriating than the DKoK Grenadiers.
There's an absurd ton of extras, there's more parts still on the sprue than I actually used, this set easily could have been split into two different boxed sets, as if you're just making 10man command Scion squads you're gonna end up with enough parts to kit out 4 command squads.
I just can't get over the fact that it's $35 for 5 wimpy Guardsmen. Should've gotten at least 10 per box at that price. And is it true that even though the kit has crap tons of extra parts, it's still missing options? I heard it only had one of each special weapon, which I naively thought GW was starting to move away from since it doesn't sell more boxes like they hope but just drives people to eBay and bits sites, which still remain in business despite their efforts to cut them off.
Also, I just noticed that the Militarum Tempustus codex is "no longer available" on the website. So...was that a first for GW, a limited edition army, or did they just run out of stock?
Peregrine wrote: Pretty much everything that made IG infantry fun and effective is either nerfed into uselessness or removed entirely, leaving only the tanks and aircraft.
It's just as well, I don't think anyone can afford to buy IG infantry anymore anyway. Not to say tanks and aircraft aren't expensive, but holy hell I don't want to know how much it costs to build an IG infantry horde. It's not even worth it anyway because both of your options, Cadians and Catachans, are both horribly outdated kits and some of the ugliest GW still produce.
So did I read it right that weapon upgrades for Heavy Weapon Squads (not teams in regular Veteran and Infantry Squads) no longer cost anything?
Also, with people being able to spam so cheap Conscripts and the Wyverns with their gazillions of twin-linked small blasts, you'd wonder if GW's new main suggested strategy for IG players is to annoy their opponents to death.
Tomb King wrote: Every dex has been getting a big monster or machine. A new toy if you will. Where is the IG love in that regard? A new flyer and/or big tank would of been nice.
Nah, GW gave the Hydra/Wyvern and the oh so unloveable weak armored taurox, chimera is still a better ride
Thank Chenkov will be in the next dataslate? I was also going to ask "But what if i field a griffin etc, what will my shop say?" well sometimes the bloke is okay but i've had fill in guys stop me talking about dawn of war...let alone if anyone metioned squats...
I'm a bit worried one day my Valhallans or tanith will end up being none legal :s.
So did I read it right that weapon upgrades for Heavy Weapon Squads (not teams in regular Veteran and Infantry Squads) no longer cost anything?
What, where?
That is also what I read, through an automatic translation to french (not google).
In the codex it could be written like : HWS : pick any 3 heavy weapons in the armoury. Period. And if the prices are absent in troop selection because they are written in the armoury, the guy may have thought they are free.
Or, heavy weapon type selection is really gratis within the HWS.
So it's either huge, or a huge mistake.
One advantage they Wyvern has over it's (now) Forgeworld brothers is that it fires Heavy weapons instead of Ordnance. This means you can add the Heavy Bolter against targets in LoS. It may be almost worth adding a heavy stubber, also, since it seems like they're 5 points now. 70 points gets you 4 twin-linked small barrage blasts and 6 36" shots.
cac on anything in particular except that the bllgryns can equip a mace and shield enhanced the brute that gives a shot to invulne 5 +
good question then the shield plate: if a model is in base contact with one or more models in the same unit with a shield plate adds +1 to their armor, also if a friend or enemy target is partially obscured from view firer receives a +1 on cover save
-L'astropate comments
So, from the looks of it Bullgryns have a 5+ invuln, 3+ armour save if in base to base contact with each other, providing a 4+ cover to any models behind them.
Given that with T5 instant death is going to fairly rare, and they're good at getting the infantry within doubletap FRFSRF with minimum casualties, they don't appear so crummy.
1) Chenkov is gone
2) Al Rahem is gone
3) Mogul Kamir is gone
4) Bastonne is gone
5) Harker is gone
6) Sly Marbo is gone
7) The Griffon is gone
8) The awesome Colossus is gone
9) The Medusa is gone
10) The Penal Legion is gone
11) The Psyker Battle squad has been turned from a pretty cool, useful unit into a complete mess of a unit that is utterly unpredictable
12) Ogryns didnt get fixed
13) Rough Riders barely got fixed but in 6th's meta are still too fragile to ever be worth taking (in comparison, look at the ridiculous points reduction bikes and assault marines received in the marine dexes)
14) We did not get the Baneblade as a super heavy even though Imperial Knights as super heavy walkers with D strength weapons are out and about.
...and we should buy a codex that also has a silly name on top of all this? Tell me IG players arent getting shafted right now. Next codex we could remove the Whirlwind for SM players and see how they react.
1) Chenkov is gone
2) Al Rahem is gone
3) Bastonne is gone
4) Harker is gone
5) Sly Marbo is gone
6) The Griffon is gone
7) The awesome Colossus is gone
8) The Medusa is gone
9) The Penal Legion is gone
10) The Psyker Battle squad has been turned from a pretty cool, useful unit into an unpredictable mess of a unit that is utterly unpredictable
...and we should buy a codex that also has a silly name on top of all this?
Well, the PBS could turn out just fine, we just don't know much about it at this time, so I'd probably wait and see.
The good news is that we have one of the best warlord tables, a solid set of orders, HQ tank commanders/Pask and Stormtrooper platoons.
But yeah, the cuts are pretty awful. I want to be excited for this codex because of the things I listed above, but I just can't with all those cuts.
I don't see what the problem is... Forgeworld and gw are the same company. If yo already have a colossus or Medusa whats the problem? Forgeworld has rules for it.
rothrich wrote: I don't see what the problem is... Forgeworld and gw are the same company. If yo already have a colossus or Medusa whats the problem? Forgeworld has rules for it.
Well call me antiquated, but I'm the kind of player who likes to have all the stuff he can field in one book. If I have to resort to FW rules to be able to field it, I start asking myself why I'm not including a CRASSUS ARMORED ASSAULT TRANSPORT and the plenty of other non-superheavy toys IG have in that area as well, either. To me there is still a distinction between FW ruleset and GW codexes, but with all the GW dataslates being thrown at you, I guess those lines are getting blurred.
rothrich wrote: I don't see what the problem is... Forgeworld and gw are the same company. If yo already have a colossus or Medusa whats the problem? Forgeworld has rules for it.
Right, most of us understand that we can use FW.
There are two problems to this. The first is that it requires another book of no small cost, though I admit its worth it anyways. The second is that people can refuse a game on principle of being FW. Now, they could refuse a game because your army is pink, or its the third Tuesday and a crescent moon, but its still another hoop to jump through, however large or small depending on your area/group.
It also has people irritated because there's no real reason for them to have been cut in the first place.
But yes, we're all aware FW exists and the rules are there for those units. Doesn't make it less irritating, stupid and a poor excuse for codex design.
There's also the matter of tournaments and events, many/most of which either limit or completely ban FW (though it's been getting better), even if pickup games may not be an issue.
At this point people who refuse to play against forgeworld, data slates strong hold and escalation are going to have a pretty hard time finding a game. I mean everyone wants a custom army and GW have now made it to where you can customize your army. There are almost no armies out there that don't have rules for them any more. Why people are thinking that this is such a bad thing I will never know. Unless it is mostly tournament players that are so upset buy this?
1) Chenkov is gone
2) Al Rahem is gone
3) Bastonne is gone
4) Harker is gone
5) Sly Marbo is gone
6) The Griffon is gone
7) The awesome Colossus is gone
8) The Medusa is gone
9) The Penal Legion is gone
10) The Psyker Battle squad has been turned from a pretty cool, useful unit into a complete mess of a unit that is utterly unpredictable
...and we should buy a codex that also has a silly name on top of all this? Tell me IG players arent getting shafted right now. Next codex we could remove the Whirlwind for SM players and see how they react.
At the very least, we're getting Harker and Marbo back in the Catachan expansion.
I don't like the idea of these expansions, but it gives us a little hope for improvement.
Vaktathi wrote: There's also the matter of tournaments and events, many/most of which either limit or completely ban FW (though it's been getting better), even if pickup games may not be an issue.
OK so it is tournament players that are mostly upset by this. In this case I think that the tournament scene really should rethink GW games altogether as they are really not set up for tournaments.
1) Chenkov is gone
2) Al Rahem is gone
3) Bastonne is gone
4) Harker is gone
5) Sly Marbo is gone
6) The Griffon is gone
7) The awesome Colossus is gone
8) The Medusa is gone
9) The Penal Legion is gone
10) The Psyker Battle squad has been turned from a pretty cool, useful unit into a complete mess of a unit that is utterly unpredictable
...and we should buy a codex that also has a silly name on top of all this? Tell me IG players arent getting shafted right now. Next codex we could remove the Whirlwind for SM players and see how they react.
Are any of those items truly core to the IG/AM, though? Or core to most people's armies? As others have said, GW doesn't really see the artillery as "gone" because of rules and kit availability from FW.
Honestly, I think this release follows the same general patterns as every other 6th edition release.
1) Focus on moving as much to plastic as possible... (desire to be rid of metal, Finecast, etc. within the next few years)
2) ...but only a limited number of new plastic kits (production limitations, shelf space, SKU control)
3) New plastic kits skewed more toward brand new units in the codex (attractive to both gamer$ and collector$)
4) Elimination of units without kits from codex (the Chapterhouse effect)
5) Codex is more of a refinement of the previous version than an overhaul
Which isn't saying that people have to like it. I'm just not sure why people are surprised by some of these things with every single 6th edition release. People have to stop listening to and getting their hopes up based on phony rumors being concocted to drive blog readership.
Also, I just noticed that the Militarum Tempustus codex is "no longer available" on the website. So...was that a first for GW, a limited edition army, or did they just run out of stock?
Looks like only the Itunes version is available. So yes, it was a limited edition army.
It got an expected points increase (Some say too much of one) to 170 points. It also lost it's built-in searchlight, and lastly it's transport capacity was halved, down to 6 models from 12.
It still functions the same as it does, just isn't as easy to spam on the tabletop. I like the fact that it isn't easy to flood the tabletop with them, as they were drastically undercosted for their effectiveness. They're in line now I think, though I would have thought 160 points would have been a fair price if they were going to halve the transport capacity. Still, can't say I'm surprised, and I'm not disappointed either. The vehicle needed the price increase and it's actually making the Valkyrie seem viable now, where-as before it was never even considered.
Vaktathi wrote: There's also the matter of tournaments and events, many/most of which either limit or completely ban FW (though it's been getting better), even if pickup games may not be an issue.
OK so it is tournament players that are mostly upset by this. In this case I think that the tournament scene really should rethink GW games altogether as they are really not set up for tournaments.
Well, it's an additional element, but this includes lots of store/club weekly leagues as well and monthly store tournaments, not just very big GT-style events, and many local playgroups are still actively apathetic and even hostile to FW.
Ravajaxe wrote: From a fellow forumer in my country who spotted another preview page, the platoon basic squad :
Prepare to the shock !
Spoiler:
So bad news, Chimera : 65 points
Please mind the page is partially cut on the bottom. Everything is not there
A points INCREASE? And now it doesn't come with a searchlight? What the feth...
And heavy weapons are compulsory rather than optional? That's absolutely absurd.
I don't buy it. Codex: Inquisition Chimeras didn't get a points increase. Why would these?
And one more 'redundancy'. ML with Frag, Krak, and 'Flakk' warheads! this might make senses if it reflects real life missile launchers where Antitank missiles and SAM use different launchers (Ex. TOW for Antitanks, and Redeye against aircrafts), correct?
or is it actually 'balancing out' efforts where other races are having REAL flyers too!
The heavy weapons aren't compulsory at all, note the language 'May'.
As for the 'redundacy' I dont see whats redundant about it, this is no different from the Marine codecies that feature missile launchers w/ frag/krak missiles and missile launchers with frag/krak/flakk missiles. Its a game balance thing. Not everyone wants to spend an extra 10 or more points per missile launcher to have access to flakk missiles. Some people feel better served having dedicated AA units (like the Hydra) instead of blowing points on additional missiles.
rothrich wrote: At this point people who refuse to play against forgeworld, data slates strong hold and escalation are going to have a pretty hard time finding a game. I mean everyone wants a custom army and GW have now made it to where you can customize your army. There are almost no armies out there that don't have rules for them any more. Why people are thinking that this is such a bad thing I will never know. Unless it is mostly tournament players that are so upset buy this?
Bull0 wrote: I've got my preorder Scions already from Element Games (UK) - that's release day, so pretty impressed with the turnaround time.
I've built a few and kitbashed a few with cadian parts - if anyone was wondering (I know I was) they seem to fit together reasonably well, I thought I'd link a couple of pictures
Spoiler:
And a commander:
And it appears that shoulder pad looks sometimes like Scout marines. Scion helmets could also worn by Scouts too! (and it's better though)
- plasmapistol is still 15 points on a model that only has BS3. maybe you can justify this in that it gives the model a bigger stat boost than it does a marine, but:
- the fact that power weapons still remain at 15 points peeves me off. at least eldar have superior ws and initiative to make use of it, but a lone guardsman sergeant? come on. should have been 10 points, actually 5 points if I had a say in codex writing so people might actually consider taking them just for the heck of it / cool factor.
- boltpistol/bolter upgrade is too cheap. at 1 point, having him keep his laspistol/lasgun is pointless unless your armylist is full and you cant even lose 1 point. I would have priced it at 3 points, because going from S3 AP- to S4 AP5 is quite a difference.
- also, I cant believe that 5 years on GW has still not realised that putting the autocannon and the heavy bolter at the same price is slowed. HB should be 5 points cheaper. Nobody will want to trade +2S and 12" range for +1 shot. Having HB and mortar at the same points level would have been perfect.
- and finally, as if 10 points for flakk wasnt already overcosted in the SM book, GW continues this tradition for a BS3 army. smh
The Taurox looks like a fun model with lots of great detail, but the tracks are more than a little odd looking. If you're going to have four separate track sections for my taste this model has a better aesthetic.
Onslaught Miniatures September 12, 2013 WIP render of the upcoming Juno APC for the Sisterhood:
BrassScorpion wrote: The Taurox looks like a fun model with lots of great detail, but the tracks are more than a little odd looking. If you're going to have four separate track sections for my taste this model has a better aesthetic.
Onslaught Miniatures
September 12, 2013
WIP render of the upcoming Juno APC for the Sisterhood:
Why replace fail with fail? The suspension system on the Taurox are badly designed and so is your scifi model.
Yeah, its the same like penis. I believe you have it, but I dont need to be slapped by it 
But putting it through a translator is still necessary.
dataslate and then I left shaking my head without wanting to know if he was using fortifications or not.
from a certain point of view Imperial Knights are the 
