HQ + Tank commander
* Nothing else special, primaris psyker still in.
Troops - lack of special weapon squad
- Sergeant Bastonne lost in action
- Commander Al'Rahem lost in action
- Commander Chenkov lost in action
* Sergeant Harker still here
Elite - Marbo lost in action
* Tempestus scions replace stormtrooper (we already knew that)
+ bullgryns
Dedicated Transports + Taurox (and taurox prime)
Fast attack * unchanged
Heavy support + Wyvern comes in - Griffon is out
- Medusa is out
- Colossus is out
I am calling BS. There was no rumor of any of the tanks or SCs going away until about a week ago when people were worried they might. This source sounds like they skimmed the forums and picked some controversial things to say were taken out. Especially because we know there were FA changes (sentinels got a points drop) AND that we have rumors contradicting the Primaris Psyker being an individual choice.
Basically, what I am saying is, apply lots of salt. Faeit WILL reprint anything. We have one week to wait for the book to come out, we can wait until then so see what it contains.
HQ + Tank commander
* Nothing else special, primaris psyker still in.
Troops - lack of special weapon squad
- Sergeant Bastonne lost in action
- Commander Al'Rahem lost in action
- Commander Chenkov lost in action
* Sergeant Harker still here
Elite - Marbo lost in action
* Tempestus scions replace stormtrooper (we already knew that)
+ bullgryns
Dedicated Transports + Taurox (and taurox prime)
Fast attack * unchanged
Heavy support + Wyvern comes in - Griffon is out
- Medusa is out
- Colossus is out
I am calling BS. There was no rumor of any of the tanks or SCs going away until about a week ago when people were worried they might. This source sounds like they skimmed the forums and picked some controversial things to say were taken out. Especially because we know there were FA changes (sentinels got a points drop) AND that we have rumors contradicting the Primaris Psyker being an individual choice.
Basically, what I am saying is, apply lots of salt. Faeit WILL reprint anything. We have one week to wait for the book to come out, we can wait until then so see what it contains.
To be fair to the rumour, it's not actually trying to detail changes (things like the FA points changes or Primaris Psyker being an individual choice), it's only detailing what has been added and what has been removed.
- Sergeant Bastonne lost in action Is in the HQ Section on the GW Site
- Commander Al'Rahem lost in action Is in the HQ Section on the GW Site
- Commander Chenkov lost in action Is in the HQ Section on the GW Site
* Sergeant Harker still here
- Marbo lost in action Is in the Elite Section on the GW Site
At least they are still all up in the GW-US site.
Bastonne did not receive a model (although the kasrkin sergeant made a very good count-as)
Chenkov is long gone (about the same time when most Valhallan gone OOP last year). You may have confused with various vostryan mins.
We already knew basically all of that, except for the artillery stuff and Al'Rahem and Chenkov. Sounds like the "spanish source" cobbled together a load of known stuff and then chucked in something controversial to get attention. Hope so, anyway.
It's still a possibility. But for the artillery tanks, it is highly probable that GW has made an agreement with FW to let them develop, produce models, and sell rules of tanks that have became theirs now.
Red__Thirst wrote:If the Griffons truly are gone, I'm going to be highly perturbed.
Won't be able to use these as Basilisks (Snub nosed bassies.. yea. No), or Wyverns. I could still use the Imperial Armor book to field them, granted, but it's still frustrating as I would rather not have to buy an Imperial Armor book just to field a pair of Griffon mortars.
I can only hope and pray they come out with a supplement for artillery that brings the Colossus, Griffon, and Medusa back in as options. Otherwise I'm going to be very disappointed. Also, before anyone says it: Yes, I realize buying a supplement is identical to having to buy the Imperial Armor book.
*sighs* Gonna go try and figure out how I can use the models pictured above in the near future, and quietly hope that they are in-fact still in the new codex.
Take it easy.
-Red__Thirst-
I have about zero chance ever to be your opponent, but in case, I would let you play them IG V6 Basilisks without problem. I would not mind seeing this type of proxy in tournaments.
Their gun is already quite big, and griffon's medium range and strength does not really give justice to these massive beasts !
Be proud of these oldies, they are nice and well painted.
Mantle wrote: So my MT codex hasn't arrived on time but are scions still taken in platoons or is it 1 squad per troops choice and a platoon in the AM codex?
the mt codex is good to have if you want to have an all scion army or as an allied force. The am codex will have the entry for scions if you want scions as PART of your guard army and not as an ally or seperate army.
Mantle wrote: So my MT codex hasn't arrived on time but are scions still taken in platoons or is it 1 squad per troops choice and a platoon in the AM codex?
the mt codex is good to have if you want to have an all scion army or as an allied force. The am codex will have the entry for scions if you want scions as PART of your guard army and not as an ally or seperate army.
But if I take MT as my primary detachment do the scions come in platoons?
And will they stay as platoons in the AM codex like the white dwarf article?
Mantle wrote: So my MT codex hasn't arrived on time but are scions still taken in platoons or is it 1 squad per troops choice and a platoon in the AM codex?
the mt codex is good to have if you want to have an all scion army or as an allied force. The am codex will have the entry for scions if you want scions as PART of your guard army and not as an ally or seperate army.
But if I take MT as my primary detachment do the scions come in platoons?
And will they stay as platoons in the AM codex like the white dwarf article?
I'm in the same conundrum, I have 50 dkok grenadiers (look & equiped like scions), 1 valk & 5 salamanders (I can use as either taurox or chimera) in my guard army (that alone could be a 1200 pt scion army), (and I have 1 hq & 2 troops, 4 tanks, 1 basilisk, & 9 heavy weapins teams.) So do I get both codexes, or just AM? Will my "scions" be better as allues ir part of my guard? I want to see that MT codex once I get my AM codex to help me decide.
Fishboy wrote: Where did this "Vendetta will be 170 points and only hole 6 people" come form.
not sure - today I heard 200+ pts and no transport capacity at all in my local GW store but that's just hearsay and rumour.................
I strongly doubt that one. Sure would tick off a lot of people who modeled their Vendettas with open side doors or back doors to not have ANY transport capacity. Of course, the rumored capacity of 6 is just as silly, as there's still the same interior room on every Vendetta model out there as there is on the Valkyrie.
Well, for those missing (maybe missing) Medusa and Co - there is still Imperial Armour, so technically nothing is lost.
For me, most news from codex sounds good. Cheaper STs? Cheaper Sentinel? New rules, new orders, tank HQ, tank orders... truly, when people compare it to Tyranid codex sound to me like bollocks Yeah, not me, not you saw the codex, but from official(!) materials we have seen it looks really good and with many good new things.
edit: I understand that some thing will suck, you cant make everyone happy, but...I wouldnt prematurely call it lost game, not in the time we are leading
Agamemnon2 wrote: No Griffons = Not interested. If I can't field Betty, I have no interest in fielding my other 4500 points, either. To hell with this game.
UlrikDecado wrote: Well, for those missing (maybe missing) Medusa and Co - there is still Imperial Armour, so technically nothing is lost.
For me, most news from codex sounds good. Cheaper STs? Cheaper Sentinel? New rules, new orders, tank HQ, tank orders... truly, when people compare it to Tyranid codex sound to me like bollocks Yeah, not me, not you saw the codex, but from official(!) materials we have seen it looks really good and with many good new things.
edit: I understand that some thing will suck, you cant make everyone happy, but...I wouldnt prematurely call it lost game, not in the time we are leading
Im feeling positive, and im feeling positive on that you can still field all of those lovely artillery units from imperial Armour with pretty much no change, so even the old codex is still viable rules are viable since they are the same points/rules.
As for the removal of the old characters, if it is true i do not see the point of it. Bastonne going away is pretty obvious since he sucked, but Al rahem and Chenkov were fluffy characters that altered the armies play style in a fun not broken way. I would be pleased if they actually ADDED a special new character, but i doubt that will happen. Removal of some of them does seem a bit ridiculous.
So far units have not been dropped from a new codex if there is a forgeworld model for it. Remember how there were rumours that shrieks would go from Tyranids? Here's hoping the medusa and griffin stay.
Im feeling positive, and im feeling positive on that you can still field all of those lovely artillery units from imperial Armour with pretty much no change, so even the old codex is still viable rules are viable since they are the same points/rules.
As for the removal of the old characters, if it is true i do not see the point of it. Bastonne going away is pretty obvious since he sucked, but Al rahem and Chenkov were fluffy characters that altered the armies play style in a fun not broken way. I would be pleased if they actually ADDED a special new character, but i doubt that will happen. Removal of some of them does seem a bit ridiculous.
Kudos for being positive!
Bastonne I would like to see upgraded, not killed, but...not big loss. He just was...fluffy If al-Raheem and Chenkov are out, it sucks. Both were good in crunch (Chenkov very niche), both were fluffy. Marbo...was best. But still, I have hopes for Catachans, Cadians supplementum or, fingers crossed, something like True Heroes of Imperium with many IG characters... Marbo, Chenkov, Last Chancers, Gaunt Ghosts...
Bastonne: I'm kind of surprised they didn't thow him in with the MT. His rules in the last codex would actually have been good if he was a stormtrooper rather than vet upgrade, and his equipment (hotshot, carapace) lended itself to them as well. I never understood why they put him with vets where he's useless.
Al'Rahem: Added a very interesting rule, but lost his unique order (forwards for the Emperor replaces Like the Wind almost word-for-word) so I can see why.
Chenkov: If he's actually gone, SITNW better be an upgrade on Conscripts.
Of course, they could just sell us 4 different Supplements/Dataslates: Catachan, Cadian, Valhallan and Tallarn.
UlrikDecado wrote: Well, for those missing (maybe missing) Medusa and Co - there is still Imperial Armour, so technically nothing is lost.
For me, most news from codex sounds good. Cheaper STs? Cheaper Sentinel? New rules, new orders, tank HQ, tank orders... truly, when people compare it to Tyranid codex sound to me like bollocks Yeah, not me, not you saw the codex, but from official(!) materials we have seen it looks really good and with many good new things.
edit: I understand that some thing will suck, you cant make everyone happy, but...I wouldnt prematurely call it lost game, not in the time we are leading
It might sound good when just balancing the codex with some units, that's fine.
What is the biggest problem to me is the fact it seems they are taking away what was the most fun thing about Imperial Guard, the diversity.
With the same codex i could create two completely different armies. In a tallarn force i would have sentinels, Al'harem and fast vehicles with a lot of high impact weapons. In a valhallan force i would have chenkov, lots of conscripts and various Artillery pieces.
Al'harem and Chenkov are rumored to be gone, and with them two characters that could truly change up an entire playstyle. The different artillery pieces are gone and just replaced with the basilisk. Now if i want a cheap mortar i would have to go with the wyvern instead of the Griffon. The griffon was good, and it felt good. The wyvern really does seem almost useless, even for a player like me who plays and paints mostly to have a fluffy and distinct army.
From the pictures, we have only seen people fielding Cadians. Cadians are fine, but the point of the guard is that they encapsulate so many different styles of warfare based in our own history. There doesn't seem to be a single thing that i have seen in the codex so far that makes any army capable of being more distinct from the next. We do not have any confirmation of new characters, just the removal of old ones.
These are just fears at the moment but in my opinion they're legitimate fears. I wanted an update to 6th edition that really made regiments stand out. I was hoping the guard would at least get the chapter tactics treatment from the Space Marine codex, but as of now it seems like they have only gone and made the guard more stagnant.
Im feeling positive, and im feeling positive on that you can still field all of those lovely artillery units from imperial Armour with pretty much no change, so even the old codex is still viable rules are viable since they are the same points/rules.
As for the removal of the old characters, if it is true i do not see the point of it. Bastonne going away is pretty obvious since he sucked, but Al rahem and Chenkov were fluffy characters that altered the armies play style in a fun not broken way. I would be pleased if they actually ADDED a special new character, but i doubt that will happen. Removal of some of them does seem a bit ridiculous.
Kudos for being positive!
Bastonne I would like to see upgraded, not killed, but...not big loss. He just was...fluffy If al-Raheem and Chenkov are out, it sucks. Both were good in crunch (Chenkov very niche), both were fluffy. Marbo...was best. But still, I have hopes for Catachans, Cadians supplementum or, fingers crossed, something like True Heroes of Imperium with many IG characters... Marbo, Chenkov, Last Chancers, Gaunt Ghosts...
Orthon wrote: Is the Militarum Tempestus available to buy at FLGS or GW stores? Will it ever be? It is not on black library either?
It is available to buy at FLGS or GW stores...but you have to get it special ordered.
Can you take an imperial guard primary force and then take a Scion command squad and two scion squads (as troops) as allies?
Yes, you can.
The wording of the Clarion Vox-Net for MT is different than that of the one in White Dwarf(MT is "any friendly units" while White Dwarf is "any friendly unit from the same Militarum Tempestus Platoon") but otherwise I'm not seeing any huge changes but I only just got my Tempestus book and I have yet to finish really giving it a good in-depth reading.
It might sound good when just balancing the codex with some units, that's fine.
What is the biggest problem to me is the fact it seems they are taking away what was the most fun thing about Imperial Guard, the diversity.
With the same codex i could create two completely different armies. In a tallarn force i would have sentinels, Al'harem and fast vehicles with a lot of high impact weapons. In a valhallan force i would have chenkov, lots of conscripts and various Artillery pieces.
Im not sure diversity is missing. Firstly, we didnt see missing medusa and spol and even if it is trues, there is still IA. Ii would be pity, if al-Raheem and Chenkov are out, but you can still make Tallarn and meatgrinder armies
Al'harem and Chenkov are rumored to be gone, and with them two characters that could truly change up an entire playstyle. The different artillery pieces are gone and just replaced with the basilisk. Now if i want a cheap mortar i would have to go with the wyvern instead of the Griffon. The griffon was good, and it felt good. The wyvern really does seem almost useless, even for a player like me who plays and paints mostly to have a fluffy and distinct army.
al-Raheem can be, IMO, substituted by new order which gives same order as he had and with deep strike beacon, I can imagine funny army. Chenkov...yeah. But as I said, there is still IA woth all the artillery and Wyvern is really, really far from useless mate. Its just anti-infantry and maybe anti-jink (you simply overload them with absurdly cheap squadron of three). I just bought Colossus...if its missing, whatever, I have my IA
From the pictures, we have only seen people fielding Cadians. Cadians are fine, but the point of the guard is that they encapsulate so many different styles of warfare based in our own history. There doesn't seem to be a single thing that i have seen in the codex so far that makes any army capable of being more distinct from the next. We do not have any confirmation of new characters, just the removal of old ones.
Sorry, but are we talking about same codex? Because Cadians only was exact in 5edition and just few pages of blackwhite fluff and miniature pictures showed otherwise. New codex is in worst same, but we have seen the same, two pages with another regiments like Tallarn, Mordians, Elysians. It cant be worse than 5th edition...well, they even took cadian Kasrkin and made them Scions I would just add "We do not have any confirmation of new characters,and we dont have confirmation of removal of old ones."
These are just fears at the moment but in my opinion they're legitimate fears. I wanted an update to 6th edition that really made regiments stand out. I was hoping the guard would at least get the chapter tactics treatment from the Space Marine codex, but as of now it seems like they have only gone and made the guard more stagnant.
So far what we have seen, its same as Fifth, with few distinctions maybe added through formations as in MT (the rules for deployment from Valkyries is simply cinematic as hell). More flexibility was added with new orders and HQ, but yeah, agree, its not regimental. But, honestly, I do not want just chapter tactics like SM codex has. I think IG is more complex in its organization, so I can make my own regiment by a lot of rules - even in 5th edition. But I bet on the fact we havent seen much.
I dont want to take some GW defender position, there is no need, just I like to look at thing as they are, not on rumor-based worries And I had a lot of worries! So far...IG seem good in new codex to me. So far, ofc ourse
Paradigm wrote: Bastonne: I'm kind of surprised they didn't thow him in with the MT. His rules in the last codex would actually have been good if he was a stormtrooper rather than vet upgrade, and his equipment (hotshot, carapace) lended itself to them as well. I never understood why they put him with vets where he's useless.
Because they didn't want to actually give Kasrkin an actual "unit profile". Same with DKOK Grenadiers.
Veterans were neat and all, but it was irksome that they refused to give Kasrkin/Grenadiers(the real "veterans" of Cadian and Krieg formations, respectively) the ability to have Hellguns.
Kasrkin are recruited from a young age and trained until they're the best of the best, they're not actively taken in from the regular rank and file. Unless this has been retconned..
BrookM wrote: Kasrkin are recruited from a young age and trained until they're the best of the best, they're not actively taken in from the regular rank and file. Unless this has been retconned..
They're recruited from the whiteshield divisions after proving their worth, but I could be wrong. So most Kasrkins would begin their training when they're in their mid-late teens
No, the heavy weapon tem is not compulsory. Its just a wording weirdness :
You may have a HWT, if so the team must take one of the heavy weapons in the list.
The picture comes from itunes preview.
Yeah, I kinda did. The first glance of it was atrocious to say the least. The 65 pts Chimera may have also influenced the sudden panic burst. I'm calm now *breathes heavily*.
No way of seeing here if the blobbing stayed or went. Oh well...
Eh, the chimera isn't too heavily nerfed. Makes sense from an internal balance stand point; for an extra 10 points, you get more armor, firing points and guns.
The problem though is that it is now inconsistent with Inquisition, which iirc, uses the cheaper version of the chimera.
MaCa, I think having to recover after the hit too.
Indeed, the Taurox is 15 points cheaper than Chimera. The up in Chimera price certainly makes some room for it.
Plus Taurox already has a dozer blade equivalent for free, so the difference is theoretically 20 points.
In 5th edition, I found Chimera to be significantly underpriced. But now, consdering the hit that vehicles took from hull point rules... this price increase should not be necessary.
What's that wargear that chimera can take? Relic plating? Recovery gear? Fire barrels? Some things increased points-wise, but nothing decreased? I declare bs.
Some of those upgrades on the Chimera in that image have me scratching my head. "Relic Plating"? "Recovery Gear"? "Fire Barrels"? ... Curious.
I do like seeing the Pintle Heavy Stubbers or Storm Bolters only costing 5 points. Also, Extra Armor is only 10 points also.
I'm not thrilled to see the Chimera get a 10 point increase for the basic tank, with no upgrades (At least in the current rules they have a searchlight built in.) Guess we'll see what's to come in a week or so.
Nobody seems to have mentioned it, but that screen cap makes it appear that Vet squads are now chosen as part of a platoon. That's pretty big, if true.
Any guesses on 'Fire Barrels'.
Logically it would be something to help you fight fires? So presumably it's actually a huge flaming barrel that you attach to your tank to deflect evil space ghosts?
A Chimera with smoke and searchlight would clock in at 71 points. Welcome back to the 4th edition Codex!!! 71 points... So much for cheaper units elsewere... -Also 15 points Missile Launchers? That can't be real....
tomjoad wrote: Nobody seems to have mentioned it, but that screen cap makes it appear that Vet squads are now chosen as part of a platoon. That's pretty big, if true.
I'm not sure. That second tab in is just the Troops tab, so there's a good chance they're still separate units.
Good spot, and a shame. I always wanted to try and make those guys useful at some point, and hoped the new 'dex would make that possible. I also can't help feeling sorry for those few guys with PL armies.
Good spot, and a shame. I always wanted to try and make those guys useful at some point, and hoped the new 'dex would make that possible. I also can't help feeling sorry for those few guys with PL armies.
Just wait for the Penis Militarum supplemental codex!
plastictrees wrote: Any guesses on 'Fire Barrels'.
Logically it would be something to help you fight fires? So presumably it's actually a huge flaming barrel that you attach to your tank to deflect evil space ghosts?
Good spot, and a shame. I always wanted to try and make those guys useful at some point, and hoped the new 'dex would make that possible. I also can't help feeling sorry for those few guys with PL armies.
I want to say it's a good thing I held off on ordering them from Victoria Miniatures, but damn it, I really wanted to field one or two squads of orange jumpsuit clad scumbags.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
plastictrees wrote: Any guesses on 'Fire Barrels'.
Logically it would be something to help you fight fires? So presumably it's actually a huge flaming barrel that you attach to your tank to deflect evil space ghosts?
Maybe boxes of flechette rounds? That's what comes to mind when I first saw that piece of kit.
Good spot, and a shame. I always wanted to try and make those guys useful at some point, and hoped the new 'dex would make that possible. I also can't help feeling sorry for those few guys with PL armies.
Just wait for the Penis Militarum supplemental codex!
This was hilarious... in a completely immature way that really shouldn't be funny. The worst part of it is, gIven GW's lack of proofing, I can actually see this happening.
Good spot, and a shame. I always wanted to try and make those guys useful at some point, and hoped the new 'dex would make that possible. I also can't help feeling sorry for those few guys with PL armies.
I want to say it's a good thing I held off on ordering them from Victoria Miniatures, but damn it, I really wanted to field one or two squads of orange jumpsuit clad scumbags.
Red__Thirst wrote: Some of those upgrades on the Chimera in that image have me scratching my head. "Relic Plating"? "Recovery Gear"? "Fire Barrels"? ... Curious.
I do like seeing the Pintle Heavy Stubbers or Storm Bolters only costing 5 points. Also, Extra Armor is only 10 points also.
I'm not thrilled to see the Chimera get a 10 point increase for the basic tank, with no upgrades (At least in the current rules they have a searchlight built in.) Guess we'll see what's to come in a week or so.
Take it easy for now guys.
-Red__Thirst-
These are already available in the MT book.
IIRC...
Relic Plating = Adamantium Will
Recovery Gear = Can continue to try and fix an immobilised result each turn
Fire Barrels = First unit to assault the vehicle takes hits, D6 S4 AP5 I think...
If you guys are ready and willing - some leakage is going on right now on 4chan's /tg/. An italian dude is translating pages from the Italian AM Codex and is giving pics as proof. Orders and Warlord Traits already translated.
MaCa wrote: If you guys are ready and willing - some leakage is going on right now on 4chan's /tg/. An italian dude is translating pages from the Italian AM Codex and is giving pics as proof. Orders and Warlord Traits already translated.
Senior (translates as ancient, but that's my guess) Officers can confer ignore cover and tank/monster hunter with two orders as well as Get Back In the Fight!
Warlord traits:
D3+1 outflanking units
Preferred enemy against one Codex you're playing against on your Warlord and his unit
No 25% casualty tests on units within 12'' of the Warlord
Warlord and unit have relentless
Warlord can issue orders, if he already can his order range is 18''
Warlord can issue orders, if he already can he can issue an additional order
Those traits are frigging great.
Can we have something to celebrate instead of whine over, for the love of god?
Fire Barrels = First unit to assault the vehicle takes hits, D6 S4 AP5 I think...
As inspired by the anti-carjacker device that became legal in Johannesburg many years ago? Basically a flamethrower should someone try and storm your motor at a red light.
D3+1 outflanking units
Preferred enemy against one Codex you're playing against on your Warlord and his unit
No 25% casualty tests on units within 12'' of the Warlord
Warlord and unit have relentless
Warlord can issue orders, if he already can his order range is 18''
Warlord can issue orders, if he already can he can issue an additional order
Those traits are frigging great.
I think these might be the greatest set of warlord traits we've seen so far (insomuch as being consistently good).
>warlord trait ("old rancors", the second one)
>leman russ commander, can issue orders
>pask's tank can reroll to penetrate armours
>AND, depending on the veichle he's on
>when shooting with a heavy cannon,a heavy cannon vanquisher,a siege cannon demolisher or a nova cannon eradicator can reroll to hit
>has rending when uses an exterminator or a punisher
>executioner can use an alternative profile: 36" str7 ap2 heavy1,large blast,blind,gets hot
Uriels_Flame wrote: So I preordered my MT codex through the store and guess what.... the store got 1 taurox 2 boxes of scions and thats it...
WTFGW? Preorder means you know exactly how many you need and where....
Hey, at least you got some stuff; the local rep decided to go on a vacation and not inform the stores around here, so I have to wait until next week to get my Scions.
konst80hummel wrote: A Chimera with smoke and searchlight would clock in at 71 points. Welcome back to the 4th edition Codex!!! 71 points... So much for cheaper units elsewere...
-Also 15 points Missile Launchers? That can't be real....
Well, missile launcher are 15 points already, so no change in points there...and +10 pts if you want flakk missiles with that.
I expected to lose the Penal legions though which is sad I a play Arbites and they are super fluffy. Hopefully the can add them in as a dataslate: Penis Militarum. The enemies of the Emperor will fear the size and power of my Penis Militarum as I thrust into their ranks with savage ferocity.
>Bullgryns
>Elite
>2 Bullgryn e 1 bone head
>ws4 bs3 str5 t5 w3 I2 A3 lds6 as4+
>+1A e +1lds for the bone head
>145 P.ti
>up to 7 more Bullgryns for 45 ppm >can replase the gauntlet and plate shield with a power maul and a brute shield for 15 ppm >carapace armour, grenade launcher gauntlet, krak grenades, plates shield.
>hammer of wrath, relentless, very bulky.
>Chimera or Taurox cas transport
>Ogryns
>2 Ogryns and 1 bone head
>130 P.ti
>same stats but as5+.
>flak armour,krak grenades,ripper guns.
>same special rules
>up to 7 more Ogryns for 40 ppm >Chimera o Taurox as transport
MaCa wrote: If you guys are ready and willing - some leakage is going on right now on 4chan's /tg/. An italian dude is translating pages from the Italian AM Codex and is giving pics as proof. Orders and Warlord Traits already translated.
Senior (translates as ancient, but that's my guess) Officers can confer ignore cover and tank/monster hunter with two orders as well as Get Back In the Fight!
Warlord traits:
D3+1 outflanking units
Preferred enemy against one Codex you're playing against on your Warlord and his unit
No 25% casualty tests on units within 12'' of the Warlord
Warlord and unit have relentless
Warlord can issue orders, if he already can his order range is 18''
Warlord can issue orders, if he already can he can issue an additional order
Those traits are frigging great.
Can we have something to celebrate instead of whine over, for the love of god?
Oooooh, that would be great. GREAT. Itss too good to be true...and still...I believe, Neo... (because I want to have warlord with add order...or tactical megagenius...or...everything)
>warlord trait ("old rancors", the second one) >leman russ commander, can issue orders >pask's tank can reroll to penetrate armours >AND, depending on the veichle he's on >when shooting with a heavy cannon,a heavy cannon vanquisher,a siege cannon demolisher or a nova cannon eradicator can reroll to hit >has rending when uses an exterminator or a punisher >executioner can use an alternative profile: 36" str7 ap2 heavy1,large blast,blind,gets hot
This can't be real. Rending on a punisher? Re-rolls everywhere?
The only thing from that list I'm willing to believe without visual evidence is Pask getting the preferred enemy warlord trait.
>tank commander has bs4
>roll 2d6, if 9 or less, can issue an order
>1-tank commander squadron move up to 6+d6 in the shooting phase
>2-tank commander shoots first, then rest of the squadron MUST shoot at a different target (that can't be the unit that came out of the transport destroyed by the tank commander)
>3-tank commander unit can use smokes after shooting
As squad Sgts can now have boltguns (again) I am tentatively hopeful that they will have finally been issued with lasguns after a decade of resorting to laregly pointless las pistol fire.
>warlord trait ("old rancors", the second one)
>leman russ commander, can issue orders
>pask's tank can reroll to penetrate armours
>AND, depending on the veichle he's on
>when shooting with a heavy cannon,a heavy cannon vanquisher,a siege cannon demolisher or a nova cannon eradicator can reroll to hit
>has rending when uses an exterminator or a punisher
>executioner can use an alternative profile: 36" str7 ap2 heavy1,large blast,blind,gets hot
This can't be real. Rending on a punisher? Re-rolls everywhere?
The only thing from that list I'm willing to believe without visual evidence from that list is Pask getting the preferred enemy warlord trait.
There's a screenshot on the site. In Italian.
It looks pretty legit.
Bad news
>Griffon, Medusa and Colossus have been eliminated.
>vendetta is really 170 p.ts and it can carry only 6 models.
>vendetta squadron
>170 Ppm
>can add 2 more
>transport 6 models only
>searchlight is no more an option
>heavy requiem (bolters) 20pts
>valkyrie squadron
>125 P.ti
>can add 2 more
>searchlight is no more an option
>lascannon 10 pts
>missiles cost 10pts
>heavy requiems (bolters) 20pts
time for orders
>1-precision shot rule
>2-split fire
>3-additional shots with lasguns and hot shots
>4-can run after shooting
>5-use 3d6 to run, choose the higher
>6-pinning
orders for ancient officer only
>1-tank & monster hunters
>2-ignore covers
>3-unit regroups without problems
Tank and monster hunter, ignore cover, and get back in the fight.
So essentially, bring it down, Fire on my target, and Get back in the fight are intact, they have just been tweaked.
So I was definitely wrong about them going away, which is awesome. No explanation on how we get orders, but it seems like you have to buy them from the sound of it. Those orders definitely sound like they can make infantry a scarier thing to face now, if not the most competitive thing ever. A well played guard army making the most of their orders could possibly dish out a ton of punishment.
I would doubt it, the wording suggests that they can only be issued to the Tank Commanders Sqn.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
plastictrees wrote: Anyone copypaste the Ogryn info? Limited work access here.
Bullgryns
>Elite
>2 Bullgryn e 1 bone head
>ws4 bs3 str5 t5 w3 I2 A3 lds6 as4+
>+1A e +1lds for the bone head
>145 P.ti
>up to 7 more Bullgryns for 45 ppm >can replase the gauntlet and plate shield with a power maul and a brute shield for 15 ppm >carapace armour, grenade launcher gauntlet, krak grenades, plates shield.
>hammer of wrath, relentless, very bulky.
>Chimera or Taurox cas transport
>Ogryns
>2 Ogryns and 1 bone head
>130 P.ti
>same stats but as5+.
>flak armour,krak grenades,ripper guns.
>same special rules
>up to 7 more Ogryns for 40 ppm >Chimera o Taurox as transport
Also, pask comes with the Warlord trait that allows him to pick one codex and give himself and his squadron preferred enemy against those units.
You can get a BS 4 Punisher with Rending, rerolls to hit, and rerolls against armor pen. And you could stick up to 2 Punishers with him packing the Preferred enemy rule as well. That's insane.
MrMoustaffa wrote: Also, pask comes with the Warlord trait that allows him to pick one codex and give himself and his squadron preferred enemy against those units.
You can get a BS 4 Punisher with Rending, rerolls to hit, and rerolls against armor pen. And you could stick up to 2 Punishers with him packing the Preferred enemy rule as well. That's insane.
MrMoustaffa wrote: Also, pask comes with the Warlord trait that allows him to pick one codex and give himself and his squadron preferred enemy against those units.
You can get a BS 4 Punisher with Rending, rerolls to hit, and rerolls against armor pen. And you could stick up to 2 Punishers with him packing the Preferred enemy rule as well. That's insane.
Yeah, that's why I refuse to believe it. I don't care what evidence is thrust upon me. My little heart can not take getting its hopes up so. It just sounds too awesome for words.
MrMoustaffa wrote: Also, pask comes with the Warlord trait that allows him to pick one codex and give himself and his squadron preferred enemy against those units.
You can get a BS 4 Punisher with Rending, rerolls to hit, and rerolls against armor pen. And you could stick up to 2 Punishers with him packing the Preferred enemy rule as well. That's insane.
Yeah, that's why I refuse to believe it. I don't care what evidence is thrust upon me. My little heart can not take getting its hopes up so. It just sounds too awesome for words.
We havent seen his new cost yet.
I'm willing to bet that with rules that awesome, he's probably getting a decent sized price increase.
Even if he's stupidly expensive though, those rules mean I'd definitely field him every now and then for a laugh.
Also, the guy has stopped posting things. Apparently he doesn't have the book, he's just translating leaked pics he's found so far.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: I bet that every IG / AM player is going to have Pask in their army now...
The CCS (assuming ancient officer refers to senior officers like company commanders) will get to issue twin-linked and ignores cover orders now though, which with heavy weapon teams will be brutal.
I'm going to wait to see the cost of Pask before I make a full judgement.
Good spot, and a shame. I always wanted to try and make those guys useful at some point, and hoped the new 'dex would make that possible. I also can't help feeling sorry for those few guys with PL armies.
this is actually why the data slates are a good idea,
if they dont already have it planned, a data slate for stuff like last chancers, penal troopers, that actually gives them a cohesive role and feel, is always possible.
Ravajaxe wrote: So Ogryns are still priced 40 points...
Valkyrie with useless hellstrike missiles going up +25 pts...
How can GW design team not learn from their mistakes to such a level ?
Depends on the stats of the shield...if it is walking ADL...it can be worth the points...
I'm speaking of the old style regular ogryns with flak armor and ripper gun.
They were bad to the point of being unplayable in 3th - 4th
They got more resilient but freaking too expensive in 5th
They are still that bad in 6th
So, Vendettas get a major nerf, Chimeras get a crippling nerf for no apparent reason, popular units and characters get removed entirely. And all we get is some ugly models that nobody wanted with rules that ensure they'll never see any real use. Why exactly is this book worth $50?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Weren't Penal Legion squads one of unpopular choices from the last codex though? I've poor reception for them.
They weren't popular because their rules were pretty bad. This was an opportunity to improve their rules and make them worth taking, but I guess they're a victim of GW's idiotic "if we don't sell a kit with this exact name then we have to get rid of the rules" policy.
Perhaps, or maybe the designers just thought they were dead weight and were a superfluous choice. What role could the PL have filled, that was already occupied by the other choices?
Also, chimeras just received a 10 points increase. How is that crippling? Crippling would be if they got a 10 point increase and had their AV reduced.
Wow... 71 points for the same Chimera loadout as the 55 pts in the last codex. Just... wow. 40 pts more per Vendetta, more expensive power weapons, plasma pistols are 15 pts now instead of 10, apparently now we have to buy our orders... yeah... REAL excited for the new codex...
More than that, because you have to buy back the smoke and searchlight. It's a 29% increase in cost on a unit that was already struggling to justify its existence in the 6th edition world of fragile vehicles that automatically "pin" their passengers when hit, even if you disembark.
>Bullgryns
>Elite
>2 Bullgryn e 1 bone head
>ws4 bs3 str5 t5 w3 I2 A3 lds6 as4+
>+1A e +1lds for the bone head
>145 P.ti
>up to 7 more Bullgryns for 45 ppm >can replase the gauntlet and plate shield with a power maul and a brute shield for 15 ppm >carapace armour, grenade launcher gauntlet, krak grenades, plates shield.
>hammer of wrath, relentless, very bulky.
>Chimera or Taurox cas transport
>Ogryns
>2 Ogryns and 1 bone head
>130 P.ti
>same stats but as5+.
>flak armour,krak grenades,ripper guns.
>same special rules
>up to 7 more Ogryns for 40 ppm >Chimera o Taurox as transport
I was going to use the old fat 2ed Cadin Lieutenant with the shotgun as my Penal squad leader combined with Vic's penal models.
Also I can't believe that ripper gin Orgryns are the same as they were in 5th. Heck they might even be worse without stubborn. What the hell GW? Why do you hate the Orgyns so much? They haven't been worth fielding since 2ed
creeping-deth87 wrote: more expensive power weapons, plasma pistols are 15 pts now instead of 10
Oh yeah, forgot about those. Yet more proof that GW isn't a business, it's a charity that exists to provide "productive" employment to incompetent idiots who would otherwise never rise above the level of burger flipper.
It's silly. If GW lowered points costs we'd need to buy more. Now, however, If my 2k army is now 2100, I got some eBay selling to do. What were you thinking GW?
creeping-deth87 wrote: more expensive power weapons, plasma pistols are 15 pts now instead of 10
Oh yeah, forgot about those. Yet more proof that GW isn't a business, it's a charity that exists to provide "productive" employment to incompetent idiots who would otherwise never rise above the level of burger flipper.
Stop rebooting the asinine pessimism will you? The leaks on Pask, the Warlord Traits and the CCS orders show that the person who wrote the book at least on some areas (in my opinion certainly the most important ones, who cares about Ogryns, and screw another Codex duration of Vendetta spam) has his head screwed on and knows what makes those things good.
So, has there ever been a Codex that removed so many units from an army? at least special characters -- gone. Penal legions -- gone. Three different artillery pieces -- gone. Special weapons squads -- gone.
Mr.Omega wrote: Stop rebooting the asinine pessimism will you? The leaks on Pask, the Warlord Traits and the CCS orders show that the person who wrote the book at least on some areas (in my opinion certainly the most important ones, who cares about Ogryns, and screw another Codex duration of Vendetta spam) has his head screwed on and knows what makes those things good.
And those of us who don't want to run Ebenezer Pask's Tank Circus, his ridiculous rules are cold comfort indeed. I care about Ogryns. You are right, at least, in that the word "screwed" certainly has an important role to play with regard to this laughable release.
krazynadechukr wrote: It's silly. If GW lowered points costs we'd need to buy more. Now, however, If my 2k army is now 2100, I got some eBay selling to do. What were you thinking GW?
Why would you sell parts of your army if it exceeds 2000? Don't you have shelves?
creeping-deth87 wrote: more expensive power weapons, plasma pistols are 15 pts now instead of 10
Oh yeah, forgot about those. Yet more proof that GW isn't a business, it's a charity that exists to provide "productive" employment to incompetent idiots who would otherwise never rise above the level of burger flipper.
Stop rebooting the asinine pessimism will you? The leaks on Pask, the Warlord Traits and the CCS orders show that the person who wrote the book at least on some areas (in my opinion certainly the most important ones, who cares about Ogryns, and screw another Codex duration of Vendetta spam) has his head screwed on and knows what makes those things good.
I'll be as pessimistic as I want, thank you very much. This is a forum for discussion, and frankly I don't see how your opinion that everything sounds fine and dandy is any more valid than others who are disappointed with the news so far.
Agamemnon2 wrote: So, has there ever been a Codex that removed so many units from an army? at least special characters -- gone. Penal legions -- gone. Three different artillery pieces -- gone. Special weapons squads -- gone.
Tyranid players were hit pretty hard. Units without a model had to be sourced outside or converted the hard way. Now they are gone.
At least special weapon squads are still available, the i-store preview I posted a few hours ago has a "special weapon squad" line.
edit : ninja'ed by 6 seconds by Palindrome. repost of a cropped screenshot of platoon infantry squad :
Spoiler:
So in the bad news, Chimera : 65 points
The relief : special weapon squad still present.
I'll never understand the modern GW ethos that every single unit in the game needs to be purchaseable as a boxed set from day one, and the same goes for every single piece of terrain, building, and even the table itself. It's all just so paint-by-numbers, without surprises or variance.
Even something as simple as an alien cactus made of foam with cocktail-stick spines is too adventurous for them to feature.
Agamemnon2 wrote: I'll never understand the modern GW ethos that every single unit in the game needs to be purchaseable as a boxed set from day one, and the same goes for every single piece of terrain, building, and even the table itself. It's all just so paint-by-numbers, without surprises or variance.
Chapterhouse Studios terrified GW when they nearly managed to aqcuire the trademark for the Tervigon, mostly due to GW's legal department's incompetence so GW has taken the nuclear option, as it so often does.
I think people are overstating the "problem" of chimeras losing searchlights. How many were actually using Chimera searchlights instead of on something more durable? Also, I find it dubious that Chimera's will "lose searchlight" as a default option anyways. Why?
I just picked up todays WD, and it has the Wyvern in it. Wyvern is also 65 points, but has smoke-launchers and searchlight standard.
In addiion, I have the Militarum Tempestus Codex. Valkyries? Still have searchlights, but have the new point increase at 125 points.
The Taurox prime doesn't have a complete list of options on its page, but refers back to the "Militarum Tempestus Vehicle Equipment List". And one of those options listed is the Dozer Blade. Which the Taurox doesn't need. That list looks to be copy/pasted from the Astra Militarum book.
What I'm going to go out on a limb and guess, is that the "list" you were seeing underneath the chimera was listing the full "Astra Militarum Vehicle Equipment list". Which is listing everything that all the vehicles can take as long as they can select options from said table. Which doesn't necessarily mean that the Chimera "needs" to purchase it. The chimera could very well still have smoke launchers and a searchlight on its profile page
Agamemnon2 wrote: I'll never understand the modern GW ethos that every single unit in the game needs to be purchaseable as a boxed set from day one, and the same goes for every single piece of terrain, building, and even the table itself. It's all just so paint-by-numbers, without surprises or variance.
Chapterhouse Studios terrified GW when they nearly managed to aqcuire the trademark for the Tervigon, mostly due to GW's legal department's incompetence so GW has taken the nuclear option, as it so often does.
That's tragic if true, since the case is far from over. With all the appeals, it might be anothe few years before it's clear what, if anything, GW "lost".
That's tragic if true, since the case is far from over.
Its not anything to do with on going appeal, CHS simply made a Tervigon kit before GW did. This has forced GW into removing all unit entries that don't have an actual model.
Smitty wrote: The chimera thing doesn't bug me at all. I would always run them with stubbers. 5 points extra doesn't bother me.
You are wrong. Its game changer. Whole IG is now basically unplayable. You should sell your collection. Just let it sink. Chimera is 10 points up. And. Without. Searchlights. See? Its the end. Leave the game. Its over.
Awwww Ogryn's still cost the same, and the Bullgryns are even more expensive ( although that one didn't surprise me. ) Still a bummer though, I guess I was too optimistic for thinking that they would lower their PPM. I guess I won't be taking them outside of casual games or just for fun.
I'm still super excited to get some of the models though.
Smitty wrote: The chimera thing doesn't bug me at all. I would always run them with stubbers. 5 points extra doesn't bother me.
You are wrong. Its game changer. Whole IG is now basically unplayable. You should sell your collection. Just let it sink. Chimera is 10 points up. And. Without. Searchlights. See? Its the end. Leave the game. Its over.
I've never seen anyone take Ogryns or advise using them, but I still love them. Both their models ( new and old ) and their fluff. They just really appeal to me. So regardless of how good or bad they are now, I'll still be taking them and using them from time to time.
Edit: Oh whoops, thought you were talking about Ogryns, Smitty.
Smitty wrote: The chimera thing doesn't bug me at all. I would always run them with stubbers. 5 points extra doesn't bother me.
You are wrong. Its game changer. Whole IG is now basically unplayable. You should sell your collection. Just let it sink. Chimera is 10 points up. And. Without. Searchlights. See? Its the end. Leave the game. Its over.
I never used those.
But than you did it...wrongly! Really?! How could you ignore searchlights?! I guess you are not real player in that case. I guess you are ruining the game for real players who will have to quit, because Chimera is more expensive and without searchlights. I also guess you are on GW payroll. Maybe you even made these rules and you wish to publish Dataslate: Chimera with Searchlights!
But no! Real players wont suffer this anymore! They will quit! Again. They will show the world truth about the game. NO SEARCHLIGHTS!
(but, seriously, whine about 10pts rise on Chimera and no searchlight in price is one of the most ridiculous things I saw in WH40K net-raging)
Sir Bubbles wrote: I've never seen anyone take Ogryns or advise using them, but I still love them. Both their models ( new and old ) and their fluff. They just really appeal to me. So regardless of how good or bad they are now, I'll still be taking them and using them from time to time.
Edit: Oh whoops, thought you were talking about Ogryns, Smitty.
Smitty wrote: The chimera thing doesn't bug me at all. I would always run them with stubbers. 5 points extra doesn't bother me.
You are wrong. Its game changer. Whole IG is now basically unplayable. You should sell your collection. Just let it sink. Chimera is 10 points up. And. Without. Searchlights. See? Its the end. Leave the game. Its over.
I never used those.
But than you did it...wrongly! Really?! How could you ignore searchlights?! I guess you are not real player in that case. I guess you are ruining the game for real players who will have to quit, because Chimera is more expensive and without searchlights. I also guess you are on GW payroll. Maybe you even made these rules and you wish to publish Dataslate: Chimera with Searchlights!
But no! Real players wont suffer this anymore! They will quit! Again. They will show the world truth about the game. NO SEARCHLIGHTS!
(but, seriously, whine about 10pts rise on Chimera and no searchlight in price is one of the most ridiculous things I saw in WH40K net-raging)
Indeed it is.
(Any users who saw my goof up, sorry for the double post. iPhone problems.)
UlrikDecado wrote:
(but, seriously, whine about 10pts rise on Chimera and no searchlight in price is one of the most ridiculous things I saw in WH40K net-raging)
When it's unnecessary and you're likely to take them in large numbers it adds up very quickly. For instance, in the last mechanized list I ran, assuming these new points costs, ignoring searchlights but buying smoke, that adds 165pts to the army, meaning I've got to drop a a chimera and an infantry squad and downgrade several others, and none of those are seeing any improvements in capability.
Vaktathi wrote: When it's unnecessary and you're likely to take them in large numbers it adds up very quickly. For instance, in the last mechanized list I ran, assuming these new points costs, ignoring searchlights but buying smoke, that adds 165pts to the army, meaning I've got to drop a a chimera and an infantry squad and downgrade several others, and none of those are seeing any improvements in capability.
Exactly. And it wouldn't be so bad if the Chimera nerf was the only thing wrong with an otherwise awesome codex, but so far what we've seen suggests that the best way to save $50 on a new codex is to rip a few pages out of your previous codex and take a random unit out of your list. The only thing we've gained, other than some warlord traits that should have been FAQed in the day 6th edition was released, is HQ tanks. All of the other changes either increase the cost of stuff that didn't need to be more expensive, or remove units entirely.
UlrikDecado wrote:
(but, seriously, whine about 10pts rise on Chimera and no searchlight in price is one of the most ridiculous things I saw in WH40K net-raging)
When it's unnecessary and you're likely to take them in large numbers it adds up very quickly. For instance, in the last mechanized list I ran, assuming these new points costs, ignoring searchlights but buying smoke, that adds 165pts to the army, meaning I've got to drop a a chimera and an infantry squad and downgrade several others, and none of those are seeing any improvements in capability.
It's not impossible to assume that what we saw was just the universal vehicle equipment list rather than what the chimera comes with.
Hmmm:
- Good units nerfed
- Bad units not fixed
- New units not adding anything usefull
- Several old units deleted
Still hope, you IG-fans don't get the tyranid-treatment, but hope is fading.
Will this be another Codex where no designer wants to claim authorship because the beancounters think they can write better rules?
UlrikDecado wrote:
(but, seriously, whine about 10pts rise on Chimera and no searchlight in price is one of the most ridiculous things I saw in WH40K net-raging)
When it's unnecessary and you're likely to take them in large numbers it adds up very quickly. For instance, in the last mechanized list I ran, assuming these new points costs, ignoring searchlights but buying smoke, that adds 165pts to the army, meaning I've got to drop a a chimera and an infantry squad and downgrade several others, and none of those are seeing any improvements in capability.
So change your list I run Chimeras too, yeah, I will have to recalculate thing...and I will save some points on cheaper commisars But my point was the childish "oh Im so important" crying "I quit, no more" just because the one trasport went slightly, really slightly up. Like, seriously, there is a lot of reshuffling, a lot of positive things and to call it quit because of this? Yeah, right, whatever dude, if you say so... (Im not talking about you now, just to be sure)
Vaktathi wrote: When it's unnecessary and you're likely to take them in large numbers it adds up very quickly. For instance, in the last mechanized list I ran, assuming these new points costs, ignoring searchlights but buying smoke, that adds 165pts to the army, meaning I've got to drop a a chimera and an infantry squad and downgrade several others, and none of those are seeing any improvements in capability.
Exactly. And it wouldn't be so bad if the Chimera nerf was the only thing wrong with an otherwise awesome codex, but so far what we've seen suggests that the best way to save $50 on a new codex is to rip a few pages out of your previous codex and take a random unit out of your list. The only thing we've gained, other than some warlord traits that should have been FAQed in the day 6th edition was released, is HQ tanks. All of the other changes either increase the cost of stuff that didn't need to be more expensive, or remove units entirely.
I think everything should be FAQed, so we dont have to pay for it. Paying is evil. Thats why Star Trek Federation doesnt use money. You forgot new orders, good orders cheaper commisars, cheaper stormies, sentinels, vendetta nerf (yeah, its good, surprise, surprise)...but Im pretty sure you will find some new excuse how to make it GW's fault, so, dont bother, just tell us, how its all wrong, I can effectively imagine the rest
An 18% (if smoke + searchlight are in fact included) or 30% (if they aren't) increase in points is not a slight increase, especially when there's no justification for it besides trying to make the new Taurox kit more appealing.
a lot of positive things
Like what exactly? HQ tanks are nice, but that's about it. Everything else is either nothing to get excited about, or a pointless nerf.
Dude, you are faster in denying than Im in writing Please, use my last advice from my last post It will save o lot of plastic from our keybords (everything bad is BIIIIIG and everything good...is not good!)
UlrikDecado wrote: I think everything should be FAQed, so we dont have to pay for it.
Sigh. Nice "communism is evil" rant, but there's a difference between demanding free content and expecting rule updates to make existing products compatible with the new core rules. Warlord traits were part of 6th edition and should have been added to all existing armies, just like how the flyers all got flyer rules even if they were published as fast skimmers.
You forgot new orders
Which aren't really any better than the old orders. They're different, but it's change for the sake of change.
cheaper commisars
Who cares. Nobody takes commissars when you can take divination inquisitors instead.
cheaper stormies
Only because GW removed all of the special rules that made them even vaguely useful.
vendetta nerf
Necessary for balance reasons, but you know things are pretty bad when a list of changes to be happy about includes a major nerf to a key unit.
Peregrine wrote: Sigh. Nice "communism is evil" rant, but there's a difference between demanding free content and expecting rule updates to make existing products compatible with the new core rules. Warlord traits were part of 6th edition and should have been added to all existing armies, just like how the flyers all got flyer rules even if they were published as fast skimmers.
Just for the record, Im living in country which lived in real communism and I remember it, really, this isnt about communism and you know nothing about it (Jon Snow)
The rest. Yeah, whatever, as I said, you are predictable after while. New things are not important, or are new things but not necessarily good things or are "vaguely useful"...OK, the last part was funny
The changes sound good, HQ tanks, cheaper Sentinels, 3 new orders, 3 (meh) orders for tanks, cheaper Commissars and we don't know a lot of the book.
The things that are removed suck but were mostly only added last edition anyway (Arty) and still exist in FW where they always were. Chimera parking lots reduced? Good. Vendy spam less broken? Good.
Ogryns are a WTF, especially with new plastic..
I want to know blob rules still exist however.....*crosses fingers*
UlrikDecado wrote: Yeah, whatever, as I said, you are predictable after while.
I'm only predictable because GW is predictable in releasing garbage and calling it a finished product. I'm perfectly happy to praise new releases when they're good (see X-Wing threads on new releases), GW just isn't publishing anything worth praising. I'm not going to get all excited about it and start posting about how awesome everything is just because it's new.
To lighten the mood it helps to read everything from Peregrine as if a furious falcon is screeching it at you.
Not to undermine the value of his input, just to add some texture to the experience.
Too bad they're still worse than Vendettas, and are still an AV 10 vehicle with 2 HP in an edition that makes light vehicles suicidally fragile.
cheaper Commissars
Who cares. Divination inquisitors are cheap, fix your leadership problems, and buff all of your shooting. Commissars might as well be a blank page unless you're taking them for fluff reasons (and wouldn't care about the point cost).
The things that are removed suck but were mostly only added last edition anyway (Arty) and still exist in FW where they always were.
No, they really didn't suck. Al'rahem and Chenkov were awesome fluffy characters that added interesting strategies to your whole army, and the artillery units were all solid choices. Making the artillery FW-only wouldn't be too terrible if we lived in an ideal world where the "no FW" TFGs didn't exist, but in the real world they do and making things FW-only is effectively removing them entirely for many people.
And of course removing Marbo is just inexcusable. He was by far the most popular character in the codex (and one of the most popular in the whole game), for both rules and fluff.
Chimera parking lots reduced?
Sounds like you're still stuck in 5th edition. Chimera parking lots aren't overpowered in 6th because of the new vehicle rules that make transports a lot weaker. They're only as popular as they are because foot lists are in such bad shape right now that you need those transports. Nerfing Chimeras doesn't fix the problems with foot lists, it just makes IG as a whole a weaker army.
plastictrees wrote: To lighten the mood it helps to read everything from Peregrine as if a furious falcon is screeching it at you. Not to undermine the value of his input, just to add some texture to the experience.
Too bad they're still worse than Vendettas, and are still an AV 10 vehicle with 2 HP in an edition that makes light vehicles suicidally fragile. Apart from Armoured ones they have AV12 and are much cheaper with Lascannons, why should they be better than Vendys?
cheaper Commissars
Who cares. Divination inquisitors are cheap, fix your leadership problems, and buff all of your shooting. Commissars might as well be a blank page unless you're taking them for fluff reasons (and wouldn't care about the point cost). SOME people happen to like Commissars and don't automatically spam Div Inq. and would welcome them being cheaper
The things that are removed suck but were mostly only added last edition anyway (Arty) and still exist in FW where they always were.
No, they really didn't suck. Al'rahem and Chenkov were awesome fluffy characters that added interesting strategies to your whole army, and the artillery units were all solid choices. Making the artillery FW-only wouldn't be too terrible if we lived in an ideal world where the "no FW" TFGs didn't exist, but in the real world they do and making things FW-only is effectively removing them entirely for many people.
And of course removing Marbo is just inexcusable. He was by far the most popular character in the codex (and one of the most popular in the whole game), for both rules and fluff.
I meant things being removed sucks..not the things themselves.............................
Chimera parking lots reduced?
Sounds like you're still stuck in 5th edition. Chimera parking lots aren't overpowered in 6th because of the new vehicle rules that make transports a lot weaker. They're only as popular as they are because foot lists are in such bad shape right now that you need those transports. Nerfing Chimeras doesn't fix the problems with foot lists, it just makes IG as a whole a weaker army.
Chimeras at 55pts are still cheap, 65 is fine for AV12 MLHF/HB and I have played 6th ta.
Red__Thirst wrote: Some of those upgrades on the Chimera in that image have me scratching my head. "Relic Plating"? "Recovery Gear"? "Fire Barrels"? ... Curious.
I do like seeing the Pintle Heavy Stubbers or Storm Bolters only costing 5 points. Also, Extra Armor is only 10 points also.
I'm not thrilled to see the Chimera get a 10 point increase for the basic tank, with no upgrades (At least in the current rules they have a searchlight built in.) Guess we'll see what's to come in a week or so.
Take it easy for now guys.
-Red__Thirst-
Relic plating gives the vehicle adamantium will
Recovery Gear gives it the repair rule from the Rhino
Fire barrels does some damage to charging enemies like the tau flechette launchers.
Someone may have already posted this, I still have like 8 pages to catch up on.
RandyMcStab wrote: Apart from Armoured ones they have AV12 and are much cheaper with Lascannons, why should they be better than Vendys?
It's not about being more overpowered, it's about having a role at all. Right now there's no reason to take Sentinels because Vendettas have more firepower and more durability per point, as well as transport capacity. Dropping the point cost a bit doesn't fix the problem of limited firepower and poor durability.
SOME people happen to like Commissars and don't automatically spam Div Inq. and would welcome them being cheaper
If you're taking commissars then you already don't care about how effective they are. Making them a bit cheaper reduces the impact of your poor choice a bit, but it's not exactly something to get excited about.
Chimeras at 55pts are still cheap, 65 is fine for AV12 MLHF/HB and I have played 6th ta.
Again, the point is that it isn't necessary. The only apparent reason to nerf the Chimera is to make the Taurox more appealing as a cheaper alternative, and the Taurox shouldn't exist at all.
Sorry folks, but there is a reason for the way people feel.
I have a lot of models that may be of no/limited use in this new mess of a 'dex.
I own 3 griffons, 3 medusas, 3 PL squads....
Just because you don't agree with Peregrine doesn't remove the fact there are going to be people who feel the same way.
Me included. What I've seen so far makes me feel like this will be another opportunity missed for the IG in a lot of areas.
How much are Commissars now? I haven't seen anything mentioning their new cost yet.
And the main reason they're "bad" is because Inquisitors are just stupidly good, meaning that there is no point to bother with Commissars anymore besides fluff and modeling reasons. Sadly units getting consigned to the dustbin because there's a far better option to outshine them is nothing new for IG.
I'm still cautiously optimistic that the new IG codex will get me excited to play 40k again, but if all the rumored cuts are true it'll be tough.
Also, somehow Ogryn are WORSE. they lost LD and stubborn yet stayed the same price if the rumor is to be believed. Why on earth would GW do that? It makes no sense, especially with a new kit
Man... do we even need any more proof that the people writing these books neither understand the game they're writing for nor care what rules they churn out. I mean... Ogryn are terrible for the 4th book in a row. What the hell does that tell you?
Agamemnon2 wrote: That's tragic if true, since the case is far from over. With all the appeals, it might be anothe few years before it's clear what, if anything, GW "lost".
No, the tragic part is that there was a court-case between a litigious bully and a third-party model maker and the loser wasn't either of them: It was us.
RandyMcStab wrote: Apart from Armoured ones they have AV12 and are much cheaper with Lascannons, why should they be better than Vendys?
It's not about being more overpowered, it's about having a role at all. Right now there's no reason to take Sentinels because Vendettas have more firepower and more durability per point, as well as transport capacity. Dropping the point cost a bit doesn't fix the problem of limited firepower and poor durability.
HKM/LC Armoured Sentinels are now 60 points each, so for 10 points more than a Vendetta you have 6 high strength AT shots a turn, and while there's a slight drop in effectiveness against Riptides (who are certainly falling by the wayside given recent tournament rankings) and they're not AA or a transport (but eh, you can't even fit Vets in them now), they do have a key number of advantages.
If you are playing Tau, where the case can be made that Riptide killing power would be far better, I would point out that since Vendettas are prone to being blown to pieces before they even fire by Interceptor HYMP Broadsides, and since Sentinels don't have to move 18'' a turn in full view of everything, you're getting more firepower over a longer period and its far easier to keep them out of range of the real killers with that 48'' range and smaller profile/visibility.
In addition, taking them as escorts for Leman Russ tanks is giving them constant 5+ covers and anti-charge screens, so they're working as a force multiplier, and in the Scouring they're abusing the scoring benefit better.
Mr.Omega wrote: HKM/LC Armoured Sentinels are now 60 points each, so for 10 points more than a Vendetta you have 6 high strength AT shots a turn, and while there's a slight drop in effectiveness against Riptides (who are certainly falling by the wayside given recent tournament rankings) and they're not AA or a transport (but eh, you can't even fit Vets in them now), they do have a key number of advantages.
1) Hunter-killer missiles aren't lascannons. STR 9 AP 2 is much better than STR 8 AP 3.
2) Hunter-killer missiles are a one-shot weapon. After the first turn the Sentinels are down to three shots per turn.
3) Sentinels are BS 3, Vendettas are twin-linked BS 3. Even granting your assumption that a krak missile shot is as good as a lascannon shot the Sentinels only have a small advantage for their first shot, and then do significantly less damage for the rest of the game.
So the end result is that for 10 points more you can get a unit that can shoot like a Vendetta for one turn, as long as it isn't against a flyer, or you could pay 10 points less and get a Vendetta that shoots like a Vendetta every turn.
I would point out that since Vendettas are prone to being blown to pieces before they even fire by Interceptor HYMP Broadsides
This is a marginal benefit since the Sentinels still have to face normal shooting. Starting on the table just means that your opponent doesn't have to use interceptor to get their first turn of shooting against them. And of course the Sentinels face a lot more firepower from the many weapons that don't have interceptor.
and since Sentinels don't have to move 18'' a turn in full view of everything, you're getting more firepower over a longer period and its far easier to keep them out of range of the real killers with that 48'' range and smaller profile/visibility.
Vendettas don't need that cover ability because they are only hit on 6s (way better than a 5+ cover save) or can hover for a 5+ cover save in open terrain.
In addition, taking them as escorts for Leman Russ tanks is giving them constant 5+ covers and anti-charge screens
This makes no sense because you're paying enough points for a 5+ cover save to just buy redundant LRBTs to replace the first ones that die. And a Vendetta probably gives more protection overall, since it's a very tough target that is also a high priority for most players, drawing a lot of fire away from the LRBTs entirely instead of just giving them a 5+ cover save.
MrMoustaffa wrote: How much are Commissars now? I haven't seen anything mentioning their new cost yet.
And the main reason they're "bad" is because Inquisitors are just stupidly good, meaning that there is no point to bother with Commissars anymore besides fluff and modeling reasons. Sadly units getting consigned to the dustbin because there's a far better option to outshine them is nothing new for IG.
I'm still cautiously optimistic that the new IG codex will get me excited to play 40k again, but if all the rumored cuts are true it'll be tough.
Also, somehow Ogryn are WORSE. they lost LD and stubborn yet stayed the same price if the rumor is to be believed. Why on earth would GW do that? It makes no sense, especially with a new kit
I can't fathom the reason they made the orgryn worse by doing that. Maybe they think that people will be putting commissars with them anyways, so they didn't need the leadership & stubborn themselves anymore?
We don't know how Commissars will be fielded (are they bought with individual units, like a wargear option? Are they bought 0-5 per HQ slot? Are they FoC-less HQ models so you can spam them? Could we in fact be looking at a FoC-less codex?
Looking at the MT/ST (whatever you want to call them) codex, I will note that unlike other 6th edition codexes, it does not instruct to the player "Then you can proceed to pick your army following the guidelines given in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook." Instead it states "The datasheets in this section will enable you to forge your collection of miniatures into a Militarum Tempestus army ready to fight battles in your games of Warhammer 40,000." The implication in the difference is that the MT codex does not need to follow the guidelines given in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook" In shorter terms, MT may not need to follow traditional FoC rules.
And if that is the correct reading....will the AM/IG do the same, or are the MT unique?
MrMoustaffa wrote: How much are Commissars now? I haven't seen anything mentioning their new cost yet.
And the main reason they're "bad" is because Inquisitors are just stupidly good, meaning that there is no point to bother with Commissars anymore besides fluff and modeling reasons. Sadly units getting consigned to the dustbin because there's a far better option to outshine them is nothing new for IG.
I'm still cautiously optimistic that the new IG codex will get me excited to play 40k again, but if all the rumored cuts are true it'll be tough.
Also, somehow Ogryn are WORSE. they lost LD and stubborn yet stayed the same price if the rumor is to be believed. Why on earth would GW do that? It makes no sense, especially with a new kit
Commissars are 25pts in the new stormus trooperus dex.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Man... do we even need any more proof that the people writing these books neither understand the game they're writing for nor care what rules they churn out. I mean... Ogryn are terrible for the 4th book in a row. What the hell does that tell you?
Look at the bright side: when Forgeworld gets around to doing the Imperial Army for the Horus Heresy, we'll have an IG army worth playing.
Ir0njack wrote: Was I that only one that noticed that HWT could now get flakk missiles or am I just REALLY behind that curve?
No, we noticed (and it was pretty much guaranteed once the first codex with flak for +10 points was released), it's just not a very relevant option. Flak missiles cost way too many points for a weapon that isn't even very good at killing the one thing it can shoot at. You'll only ever take them as an act of desperation.
Mr.Omega wrote: HKM/LC Armoured Sentinels are now 60 points each, so for 10 points more than a Vendetta you have 6 high strength AT shots a turn, and while there's a slight drop in effectiveness against Riptides (who are certainly falling by the wayside given recent tournament rankings) and they're not AA or a transport (but eh, you can't even fit Vets in them now), they do have a key number of advantages.
1) Hunter-killer missiles aren't lascannons. STR 9 AP 2 is much better than STR 8 AP 3.
2) Hunter-killer missiles are a one-shot weapon. After the first turn the Sentinels are down to three shots per turn.
I'm fully aware of this- which is why I explicitly said 6 high strength AT shots. 6 AT shots vs 3, against MC's and lighter superheavies (e.g Knights) you have greater potential damage, and certainly against 3+ save MC's you're doing greater average damage.
3) Sentinels are BS 3, Vendettas are twin-linked BS 3. Even granting your assumption that a krak missile shot is as good as a lascannon shot the Sentinels only have a small advantage for their first shot, and then do significantly less damage for the rest of the game.
So the end result is that for 10 points more you can get a unit that can shoot like a Vendetta for one turn, as long as it isn't against a flyer, or you could pay 10 points less and get a Vendetta that shoots like a Vendetta every turn.
A Vendetta isn't going to last long in full view of all your opponent's AA, and frequently you're going to be forced to go after the AA sources first so you don't get shot down in the following turn if they're not Interceptor. Sentinels do not have this issue, you only need to sit at the back, find a firelane which restricts LOS and lets you see your priority target and pump it with fire turn after turn. There's also no gap turn at any point where the Vendetta would have flown off the board or be forced to become a skimmer and basically die.
I would point out that since Vendettas are prone to being blown to pieces before they even fire by Interceptor HYMP Broadsides
This is a marginal benefit since the Sentinels still have to face normal shooting. Starting on the table just means that your opponent doesn't have to use interceptor to get their first turn of shooting against them. And of course the Sentinels face a lot more firepower from the many weapons that don't have interceptor.
Camo-netting (scrapping the HKM for this is worth considering) using the aforementioned method of restricting your opponent's LOS and surgically removing the worst parts of your opponent's AT with other elements are all viable ways of minimising this.
You've got one turn max, unless you by a miracle fluff all your reserves rolls turn 2, to kill all your opponent's entrenched HYMP Broadsides and AA, all of which will immediately be able to target you either before firing or just after, while LOS and intelligent positioning means only some elements of your opponent's AT should be able to see or fire with maximum effectiveness at your Sentinels.
and since Sentinels don't have to move 18'' a turn in full view of everything, you're getting more firepower over a longer period and its far easier to keep them out of range of the real killers with that 48'' range and smaller profile/visibility.
Vendettas don't need that cover ability because they are only hit on 6s (way better than a 5+ cover save) or can hover for a 5+ cover save in open terrain.
But the various AA weapons that are found in highly competitive and tournament lists are going to kill your Vendettas very quickly, being effective and having easy ability to attempt to shoot at them. The moment you finish firing your Vendettas, if you're playing Eldar for instance all of his Wave Serpents can fire their Serpent Shields at your Vendettas who are basically impossible to not see and easily swat them out the sky, whereas Sentinels will be easier to hide from all of the Serpents.
In addition, taking them as escorts for Leman Russ tanks is giving them constant 5+ covers and anti-charge screens
This makes no sense because you're paying enough points for a 5+ cover save to just buy redundant LRBTs to replace the first ones that die. And a Vendetta probably gives more protection overall, since it's a very tough target that is also a high priority for most players, drawing a lot of fire away from the LRBTs entirely instead of just giving them a 5+ cover save.
1) You're not just paying for a 5+ cover save, you're paying for several mobile Lascannons and HKM's that even really outshine the Vanquisher, given how one BS3 shot is so unreliable.
2) At highly competitive level (which given the blatant black and white conclusions you make should be a fair assumption) and tournament level you will very, very rarely find anyone who hasn't brought enough AA to handle the immediate threat of flyers, so there will likely not be such a situation. Even if their AA is unsuccessful you can bet that the Vendettas will not get priority from snapfiring AT unless their situation is very dire.
For the Div Inq thing yes they are great and can add lots of awesome tools like servo skulls, books and monkeys. Some people like to just use their codex and won't want to spend $30 + model cost to get the inquisition book to add one dude to a blob squad.
I don't like that the special characters are gone as I used Al'Rahem and Chenkov a lot and always used Marbo. I also always had a squad of 2 colossus in my army as I thought they were the only useful artillery. But I can't imagine they would take out all that stuff without adding something back in. I love how all these "sources" never say what special characters are "In" just saying whats "out". There is gotta be something wrong with what they have been posting, can't wait to look through the codex.
2) At highly competitive level (which given the blatant black and white conclusions you make should be a fair assumption) and tournament level you will very, very rarely find anyone who hasn't brought enough AA to handle the immediate threat of flyers, so there will likely not be such a situation. Even if their AA is unsuccessful you can bet that the Vendettas will not get priority from snapfiring AT unless their situation is very dire.
At a highly competitive level you'll get laughed out of the tournament for bringing Sentinels. Making them cheaper does very little to make them viable. HP 2 vehicles in 6th are just bad, even War Walkers aren't that great despite being the best of the bunch.
I'm not sure if Vendettas will be that competitive anymore either as a +40 pt increase is pretty significant. Honestly, from these rumors it doesnt feel as if IG will have any place in competitive 40k regardless so maybe it won't matter which one is best.
I just can't believe there is a discussion on taking HKMs, who does that? I haven't seen one of those in.. well pretty much ever.
The searchlight nerf was to be expected since gk/inq chimera don't come with one stock. A random 20% price increase on Chimera is pretty damn rude and unexpected. The vendetta needs a nerf, but the Chimera is very well balanced for 6th ed.
The wynern is brutal and cheap, but if they remove a bunch of tanks tanks with no models players that went through the effort of conversions will be pissed.
I'm starting to worry we are going to get the nid treatment.
Everything that was viable in the last codex got MOAR expensive, and the part that I'm not sure anyone has mentioned yet is that Infantry Squads are still the same price (50 pts.)
So mech spam is more expensive so I can field less vehicles
Vendetta spam is more expensive so I can field less vehicles
Infantry are same costed (with possibly less options)
Artillery is gone
and so far we have less expensive Sentinels.... yay
The only hope I have left (and given GW's track record I dont see them being this insightful) is that those awesome orders that are the fundamental core part of the Imperial whasisname CAN BE ISSUED INTO DUDES IN A VEHICLE.
if not...well welcome to Tankaggedon because thats the only competitive option as of yet.
but my wallet thanks you GW, since now everything is more expensive, I dont need to purchase models from a modeling company.... well played Nottingham... well played.
schadenfreude wrote: The searchlight nerf was to be expected since gk/inq chimera don't come with one stock. A random 20% price increase on Chimera is pretty damn rude and unexpected. The vendetta needs a nerf, but the Chimera is very well balanced for 6th ed.
The wynern is brutal and cheap, but if they remove a bunch of tanks tanks with no models players that went through the effort of conversions will be pissed.
I'm starting to worry we are going to get the nid treatment.
I'm a little bit puzzled as to why they would remove anything from a codex, especially something that encourages people to buy and convert models.
Probably just another example of GW making atrocious business decisions...
KommissarKarl wrote: So much whinging in this thread. All I can see is a new codex that's shaping up pretty well, particularly excited about the Pask rules and new orders.
Anyone who wants to sell their chimeras as a result of this 10 point price increase, PM me and I can offer you above-ebay rates.
Maybe people are upset that models they've bought are no longer a usable unit. Its fine that you're happy, but a lot of Guard players will find portions of their army unplayable, which is not something to be praised or applauded.
If half of these leaks turn out to be true, GW will have truly dropped the ball yet again. No reason for unit cuts like this, and also demonstrating they have no clue how to balance their own game.
Sad really. I'm just disappointed. I was hoping this codex would have got me excited, but now...eh.
NuggzTheNinja wrote: I'm a little bit puzzled as to why they would remove anything from a codex, especially something that encourages people to buy and convert models.
Because it encourages them to scratchbuild or buy models and/or conversion parts from third-party manufacturers. GW's fundamental rule right now is "every unit has a kit, every kit has rules", with no conversion or counts-as. So if there isn't a plastic kit on the shelf labeled X then unit X has to be removed from the codex, and every box on the shelf must have rules to use it straight out of the box. This is why units with no current model are removed from the codex, and box of random scenery bits now has its own special rules.
KommissarKarl wrote: So much whinging in this thread. All I can see is a new codex that's shaping up pretty well, particularly excited about the Pask rules and new orders.
Anyone who wants to sell their chimeras as a result of this 10 point price increase, PM me and I can offer you above-ebay rates.
Maybe people are upset that models they've bought are no longer a usable unit. Its fine that you're happy, but a lot of Guard players will find portions of their army unplayable, which is not something to be praised or applauded.
If half of these leaks turn out to be true, GW will have truly dropped the ball yet again. No reason for unit cuts like this, and also demonstrating they have no clue how to balance their own game.
Sad really. I'm just disappointed. I was hoping this codex would have got me excited, but now...eh.
What armies will be unplayable? Not being dense or unsympathetic, but I don't think there's anything been cut that can't be found in ForgeWorld or as a stand-in for something else. I think people are focusing on the price increases because we don't yet know how the codex will actually works, juding the whole thing based on the price changes of a handful of units is a little presumptious I think.
There is no such thing in 40k, really. The rules have always been atrociously balanced and they were not even designed for competative games in the first place. Yes 40k would greatly benefit from a functionally balanced ruleset but in reality that still wouldn't allow for truly competative games given the complexity of the dozens of unit types, weapon systems, vehicles etc in 40k. GW is showing no inclination to even play test its rules never mind create a tournament friendly wargame so expecting a balanced codex is frankly naive.
Getting over exicted about something as marginal as a 30% increase in the cost of power weapons is really not worth the effort.
If you want a competative wargame then something like Infinity would suit you better than 40k ever will.
What armies will be unplayable? Not being dense or unsympathetic, but I don't think there's anything been cut that can't be found in ForgeWorld or as a stand-in for something else. I think people are focusing on the price increases because we don't yet know how the codex will actually works, juding the whole thing based on the price changes of a handful of units is a little presumptious I think.
Sure, you can use FW rules to field griffons and such, but why shouldn't people be upset that GW cut long standing units that could have just as easily remained in the codex? Not to mention the hacking of certain SCs that were at least fun to use and offered some different ways of playing. Instead of balancing them, they just cut them in the laziest move possible.
The whole thing strikes me as lazy. Obviously I'll wait for the product in my hands before I judge it fully, but losing out on those arty options and those SCs is not a good move in the slightest.
I think I'll just stick to DftS and IA for Chimeras and Valkyries/Vendettas if the rumors are true. Both are still up-to-date and legal (as long as FW is allowed). I don't think those will be updated.
What armies will be unplayable? Not being dense or unsympathetic, but I don't think there's anything been cut that can't be found in ForgeWorld or as a stand-in for something else. I think people are focusing on the price increases because we don't yet know how the codex will actually works, juding the whole thing based on the price changes of a handful of units is a little presumptious I think.
Sure, you can use FW rules to field griffons and such, but why shouldn't people be upset that GW cut long standing units that could have just as easily remained in the codex? Not to mention the hacking of certain SCs that were at least fun to use and offered some different ways of playing. Instead of balancing them, they just cut them in the laziest move possible.
The whole thing strikes me as lazy. Obviously I'll wait for the product in my hands before I judge it fully, but losing out on those arty options and those SCs is not a good move in the slightest.
This; laziness and greed. What they don't remove entirely, they'll throw into a dataslate and force you to pay out the nose yet again for it. Who would've thought 40K had the codex equivalent of DLC?
KommissarKarl wrote: I don't think there's anything been cut that can't be found in ForgeWorld or as a stand-in for something else.
This would be a good argument, except there are a lot of TFGs who whine and cry every time you try to use a FW unit. Now if I want to use my Medusa I can't just put it on the table and play the game, I have to have the same old fight about whether we should play 40k by the normal rules or TFG's special version of 40k where my army isn't legal.
Maxurugi wrote: I think I'll just stick to DftS and IA for Chimeras and Valkyries/Vendettas if the rumors are true. Both are still up-to-date and legal (as long as FW is allowed). I don't think those will be updated.
Well, if you want to be a rules lawyer, sure, feel free to attempt to use obsolete books because GW hasn't explicitly said that the new IG codex replaces those old rules. But good luck getting anyone to play against you.
Maxurugi wrote: I think I'll just stick to DftS and IA for Chimeras and Valkyries/Vendettas if the rumors are true. Both are still up-to-date and legal (as long as FW is allowed). I don't think those will be updated.
Well, if you want to be a rules lawyer, sure, feel free to attempt to use obsolete books because GW hasn't explicitly said that the new IG codex replaces those old rules. But good luck getting anyone to play against you.
A book is obsolete only after its successor is released. Also, it's not too difficult to release updates for that books. I suggest blaming GW for stuff like that.
Chimera won't end up being sold, they will be shelved except for 3 inquisitorial ones with duel hb and psybolts. It's not that they are unplayable, it's that they can't compete with other options.
If valks still carry 12 I see them being more popular then vendettas.
The #1 problem I see with the new dex is it won't be able to compete with forge world static artillery like sabres, thudds, andheavy carriages especially when dirt cheap comissars become available. It's also going to be comically absurd when heavy arillery carriages effectively gain battle focus through orders.
schadenfreude wrote: It's also going to be comically absurd when heavy arillery carriages effectively gain battle focus through orders.
The guns can't move voluntarily, and ignore any effect which forces them to move. The order would only allow the crew models to reposition a bit after shooting.
Well, for those annoyed at the complainers for doing their predictable routine just think back to any codex release people didnt complain about... (there are none) Even when eldar and tau dropped. Just goes to show they will say anything sucks. Let them be.
Someone is doing a cool Taurox modification in the blog world.
shingouki wrote: Just got back from my local GW with my scions.They will look great as Chaos troops imo.They had a painted up Taurox and it looked a lot better than the pics do.It came across as more of a SWAT vehicle/snatch land rover to me,the inside was pretty cool too.It's a smaller vehicle than it looks in the pics.
Wait, i read on Natfka that Tempestus troops could only be taken as allies for the usual Imperials and Taus+Eldars.
RegulusBlack wrote: The only hope I have left (and given GW's track record I dont see them being this insightful) is that those awesome orders that are the fundamental core part of the Imperial whasisname CAN BE ISSUED INTO DUDES IN A VEHICLE.
If they copy the wording of the "Voice of Command" rule from Militarum Tempestus, then embarked units can't take orders.
I still dont know what the internet rage is about. Same old GW same ol folks buying the kits and limited editions like candy bars hanging around expecting different results. Insanity and im just glad I dont have to buy anything new. Except of course the new rules. But its not like im playing competitively anyway. So if I want to play 2nd ed I will. If I want to use the models I have I can. I want to use them for a different game system I can.
No one is forcing any of you to buy anything.
Find a good gaming group and move on.
You are not bringing up anything new in this thread, the nid thread, or the past 700+ pages of discussion of when codexs have changed, editions have changed, etc.
I swear I don't get you guys. I'm always ready to lambast GW but this doom and gloom opera I'm reading is kind of puzzling. With GW shafting play spaces, not caring about tournaments and stuff like that why you care about having to buy Taurox or whatever other crap GW comes with this week?
Especially Peregrine. I don't understand your position Peregrine. This is a game, as such we are not forced to play it against our will. You have a nice FW army and have been a champion that FW rules are core rules now, so why you now appear to be unable to do the same and ? TFG, TFG it's always TFG that refuses to play FW... then find another person to play I'm sure you can if you try.
Here in Japan the player base around Kobe was all high and mighty because I prefered using mainly 3rd party figures instead of GW and banned me from playing at the "local" shop (that sold those cool UrbanWar figures btw, so they wanted my money but not my presence...). I took my bussiness elsewere found another group that didn't care about it to play and contacted similarly minded players to play the way I'm comfortable with.
My friends back in Spain are doing the same, when GW closed the battle bunker and ended the tournament scene they organized and found places to play and along the way dumped a huge amount of ballast in the form of GW impossed restrictions.
So why can't you do the same especially those playing at home? feth GW, play the game the way you and your opponents want. There is no longer a Chapter Approved way since GW closed their "fortress" gates to the heathens that want to enjoy 40K differently. With the current state of things it's up to us to use allies, dataslates, FW, missions... or not. Want to play a Taurox and hate the damned apocotruck, use a count us from other company. The new IG dex lack of arty is a pile of manure use Krieg rules or IA whatever. Want to bring Knigts but the official one is too expensive, Dreamforge has a nice count-as... there are many possibilities if we care to arrange them instead of waiting for GW to do it for us.
M.
PS: About the new IG, yeah I'm miffed about some of the changes but then I'm not that concerned because at my low skill level (and for reasons above)I was not that dependant on Valks/dettas or other real competitive lists so I can shuffle stuff around and won't be forced to buy anything I didn't already want to buy... that boils down to one new ST box
Miguelsan wrote: I swear I don't get you guys. I'm always ready to lambast GW but this doom and gloom opera I'm reading is kind of puzzling. With GW shafting play spaces, not caring about tournaments and stuff like that why you care about having to buy Taurox or whatever other crap GW comes with this week?
Especially Peregrine. I don't understand your position Peregrine. This is a game, as such we are not forced to play it against our will. You have a nice FW army and have been a champion that FW rules are core rules now, so why you now appear to be unable to do the same and ? TFG, TFG it's always TFG that refuses to play FW... then find another person to play I'm sure you can if you try.
Here in Japan the player base around Kobe was all high and mighty because I prefered using mainly 3rd party figures instead of GW and banned me from playing at the "local" shop (that sold those cool UrbanWar figures btw, so they wanted my money but not my presence...). I took my bussiness elsewere found another group that didn't care about it to play and contacted similarly minded players to play the way I'm comfortable with.
My friends back in Spain are doing the same, when GW closed the battle bunker and ended the tournament scene they organized and found places to play and along the way dumped a huge amount of ballast in the form of GW impossed restrictions.
So why can't you do the same especially those playing at home? feth GW, play the game the way you and your opponents want. There is no longer a Chapter Approved way since GW closed their "fortress" gates to the heathens that want to enjoy 40K differently. With the current state of things it's up to us to use allies, dataslates, FW, missions... or not. Want to play a Taurox and hate the damned apocotruck, use a count us from other company. The new IG dex lack of arty is a pile of manure use Krieg rules or IA whatever. Want to bring Knigts but the official one is too expensive, Dreamforge has a nice count-as... there are many possibilities if we care to arrange them instead of waiting for GW to do it for us.
M.
No they want a business to tell them to do that, not other people. They cant do anything on their own initiative, they have to be told. They are just angry because no company is telling them what to do, or telling them to do it the way they want. Simple really.
Miguelsan wrote: So why can't you do the same especially those playing at home?
Because playing at home pretty much doesn't exist in the US, unless you have friends from outside of 40k that also happen to play 40k. Most games here are pickup games in a store, and there's an expectation that you play by the standard rules as published by GW. Plus, saying "you can fix all of the problems GW created by putting your own work into the game" doesn't excuse the fact that GW's original product was garbage, or in any way mean that we shouldn't criticize GW for it.
(Of course the one "no house rules" exception is if you have too many TFGs in your community and they declare themselves to be in charge of deciding what you're allowed to play.)
Yeah, I wonder why. Could it possibly have anything to do with the fact that those two armies have blatantly overpowered units and, in the case of the Tau codex, nerfed other stuff to make room for the overpowered nonsense? People aren't complaining because the IG latest codex isn't powerful enough, we're complaining because looks like yet another $50 book of garbage from GW.
I'm actually thinking of completing my armored company because Pask appears to be absolutely glorious. Fun fact:
In a Leman Russ Punisher, Pask can kill a Land Raider because he gets rending, can re-roll armor penetration, and gets preferred enemy against it with 20 shots. That is ridiculous.
And what do you think happens here? Do you think in Japan we have rooms available everywhere? Yes I get you have to go to a store and there are expectations but why can't you arrange some of those expectations ahead of time? Why not reaching to other players before the game instead of just putting your army on a table and saying "I want to play!"
Why not using this same forum and contact others saying "I'm playing FW rules in such and such shop next Sat who is game?" That's the way I do it around here and seems to work, why don't you try it? I for one wouldn't blink an eye if you brought FW rules to a game if you were to told me in advance.
And I'm not saying that you cannot call on GW when they do stupid things i.e: every other week, and I'm the first in line to do it. It's just that if you rant, rant and then still play the way they want you to, GW wins at the end. My point is play the game, don't let the game play you.
Miguelsan wrote: So why can't you do the same especially those playing at home?
Because playing at home pretty much doesn't exist in the US, unless you have friends from outside of 40k that also happen to play 40k. Most games here are pickup games in a store, and there's an expectation that you play by the standard rules as published by GW. Plus, saying "you can fix all of the problems GW created by putting your own work into the game" doesn't excuse the fact that GW's original product was garbage, or in any way mean that we shouldn't criticize GW for it.
(Of course the one "no house rules" exception is if you have too many TFGs in your community and they declare themselves to be in charge of deciding what you're allowed to play.)
Yeah, I wonder why. Could it possibly have anything to do with the fact that those two armies have blatantly overpowered units and, in the case of the Tau codex, nerfed other stuff to make room for the overpowered nonsense? People aren't complaining because the IG latest codex isn't powerful enough, we're complaining because looks like yet another $50 book of garbage from GW.
I only play with people i know, i live an hour away from any stores so i find people here on Dakka and take turns playing at each others house or we car pool up to the nearest store on an off night and typically still play against each other. Sounds like you have the opposite of my local meta, but for a lot of people out there 40k is a garage/basement game with friends.
schadenfreude wrote: It's also going to be comically absurd when heavy arillery carriages effectively gain battle focus through orders.
The guns can't move voluntarily, and ignore any effect which forces them to move. The order would only allow the crew models to reposition a bit after shooting.
The order says the guns must move forward.
The immobile artillery says the guns can not move, and to ignore any effect which forces them to move including the order.
The order says to ignore any restrictions that would forbid the gun from moving so RAW the order says to ignore the restrictions of the immobile artillery rule. At this point the only way RAW would be able to have the immobile artillery rule trump the order would be if the immobile artillery rule were to specifically say to ignore any special rule that would cause the immobile artillery special rule to be cancelled or negated. The immobile artillery rule doesn't say that, and the order says to ignore the immobile artillery rule.
I'm just getting back into 40k after time off in Immoren and I'm actually looking forward to seeing more IG/AM in games. I haven't faced an IG army since 1999 and it's a real shame.
The armies are very expensive, but even veteran players have shyed away from them in all the Meta I've played in over the last 15 years.
I had an IG army back in 2nd ed and I really liked it. They are probably my favourite army as its just a bunch of humans with a flashlight and BALLS. Nothing fancy there.
Also as a member of an armed forces family (Father: 6th Royal Tank Regiment, Retired), the Tanks interest me more than any other unit and I'm glad to see they are finally getting a HQ.
Anyway, I digress.
The reason I didn't get a new IG army was the cost of the army itself. I can see why veteran players would be pissed at things changing so drastically, but for new players (or returning players), a points increase here and there is a good thing as you don't need as many models or as much space (another reason I didn't get a new IG army).
I'm going to buy the book as this is the first GW release since Codex Space Marines that has caught my eye.
I'll take a look at the Tank HQ, Pask and other Tank related shenanigans before I start collecting.
I just want to see more IG/AM players.
I seriously hope this release causes that.
Edit: From a gaming standpoint, I see no reason why they made the Chimera more expensive and the new Taurox so bad. Also... Ogryns??? Poor unit hasn't been seen since 2nd ed.
Might end up building the IG army I've always wanted: Necromunda House Orlock Regiment, based off Catachan models.
Puscifer wrote: for new players (or returning players), a price increase here and there is a good thing as you don't need as many models or as much space
This is only true if those models also gain an increase in power to justify the point increase. If you just increase points while keeping their rules the same then all you've done is made it harder to win. And having an army with fewer models doesn't really help much if those few models lose all the time.
Puscifer wrote: for new players (or returning players), a price increase here and there is a good thing as you don't need as many models or as much space
This is only true if those models also gain an increase in power to justify the point increase. If you just increase points while keeping their rules the same then all you've done is made it harder to win. And having an army with fewer models doesn't really help much if those few models lose all the time.
QFT.
I couldn't agree more.
TBF... Didn't the IG need a nerf?
Its an actual question... I've not played them or against them since 1999 and all I see is Internet reports from the last codex being broken.
Miguelsan wrote: And what do you think happens here? Do you think in Japan we have rooms available everywhere? Yes I get you have to go to a store and there are expectations but why can't you arrange some of those expectations ahead of time? Why not reaching to other players before the game instead of just putting your army on a table and saying "I want to play!"
Why not using this same forum and contact others saying "I'm playing FW rules in such and such shop next Sat who is game?" That's the way I do it around here and seems to work, why don't you try it? I for one wouldn't blink an eye if you brought FW rules to a game if you were to told me in advance.
And I'm not saying that you cannot call on GW when they do stupid things i.e: every other week, and I'm the first in line to do it. It's just that if you rant, rant and then still play the way they want you to, GW wins at the end. My point is play the game, don't let the game play you.
M.
Because he shouldn't HAVE to do this. Literally no other miniatures game requires this kind of pre-planning or negotiation.You are obviously of the opinion that this is acceptable for 40K, but there are others like myself and like Peregrine for whom it is not acceptable.
No. IG were great in 5th because they were the first 5th edition codex and took full advantage of the 5th edition improvements to transports, but they aren't all that great anymore. They need a nerf or two (Vendettas mostly), but mostly what they need is some changes to make the forgotten stuff like rough riders and ratlings more useful. I can't see any way to justify an overall nerf to the army when Tau and Eldar are so much more powerful right now.
And of course the changes are especially stupid because GW nerfed things that were already bad (power weapons and plasma pistols) for no apparent reason. It's amazing to me that someone stupid enough to make those changes could actually be employed as a game designer.
BrendonC wrote: I just want to know why they made the Hydra Open Topped....
Because a lot of AA guns are open topped when mounted on a vehicle. They are an AA gun, its not like they are on the front lines getting shot at frequently so why armour them up too much?
No. IG were great in 5th because they were the first 5th edition codex and took full advantage of the 5th edition improvements to transports, but they aren't all that great anymore. They need a nerf or two (Vendettas mostly), but mostly what they need is some changes to make the forgotten stuff like rough riders and ratlings more useful. I can't see any way to justify an overall nerf to the army when Tau and Eldar are so much more powerful right now.
And of course the changes are especially stupid because GW nerfed things that were already bad (power weapons and plasma pistols) for no apparent reason. It's amazing to me that someone stupid enough to make those changes could actually be employed as a game designer.
Ahhh, ok, thanks for the explanation.
In retort to the point on PW and Plasma Pistols, why would an IG player take them anyway? IG infantry suck, you wouldn't take a PW on a character that isn't good with said weapon. I think the points cost are more telling us what works and what doesn't. PW on a grunt officer or even a Colonel is pointless... PW on a Marine... Now that's different thing and should be taken.
I am pretty irritated about a lot of the idiotic and pointless changes that seem to be happening, but those have been hashed out already. I did notice something I am rather excited about:
Infantry squad Sergeants can get bolters for 1 point! We can get a squad leader in a shooty unit in a shooty army that shoots further than 12"! Hooray for tiny victories!
Puscifer wrote: I think the points cost are more telling us what works and what doesn't.
If that's the case then why include the option at all? Don't make it too many points to keep people from using it, either price it appropriately or don't include it.
Because that's what the previous model was, and being open-topped makes it a lot more fragile. So now everyone who bought the old Hydra model has to pay more points to keep using what they already have.
No. IG were great in 5th because they were the first 5th edition codex and took full advantage of the 5th edition improvements to transports, but they aren't all that great anymore. They need a nerf or two (Vendettas mostly), but mostly what they need is some changes to make the forgotten stuff like rough riders and ratlings more useful. I can't see any way to justify an overall nerf to the army when Tau and Eldar are so much more powerful right now.
And of course the changes are especially stupid because GW nerfed things that were already bad (power weapons and plasma pistols) for no apparent reason. It's amazing to me that someone stupid enough to make those changes could actually be employed as a game designer.
Ahhh, ok, thanks for the explanation.
In retort to the point on PW and Plasma Pistols, why would an IG player take them anyway? IG infantry suck, you wouldn't take a PW on a character that isn't good with said weapon. I think the points cost are more telling us what works and what doesn't. PW on a grunt officer or even a Colonel is pointless... PW on a Marine... Now that's different thing and should be taken.
It's actually a matter of strength given. A powerfist on a marine is 25 pts, for Str8, while on a human is is (was) 15 pts for Str6. now it's 25 for both (according to sources) despite having a difference in strength.
Power weapons are somewhat the same; let's take a sword; WS4 Str4 AP3 for a marine Sgt, WS3 Str3 AP3 for a Guard Sarge. (WS4 for senior officers and Commissars) Use to be 10 pts, now it is 15.
Smitty wrote: I'm actually thinking of completing my armored company because Pask appears to be absolutely glorious. Fun fact:
In a Leman Russ Punisher, Pask can kill a Land Raider because he gets rending, can re-roll armor penetration, and gets preferred enemy against it with 20 shots. That is ridiculous.
You say that like it's a bad thing
Puscifer wrote:In retort to the point on PW and Plasma Pistols, why would an IG player take them anyway? IG infantry suck, you wouldn't take a PW on a character that isn't good with said weapon. I think the points cost are more telling us what works and what doesn't. PW on a grunt officer or even a Colonel is pointless... PW on a Marine... Now that's different thing and should be taken.
Someone has clearly never seen a 5th ed power blob army, or any of the multitude of "henchmen" allied lists that showed up during 6th.
A combined infantry platoon with 40 to 50 guardsmen, with all the sarges and a commissar or two can be absolutely brutal. It's not so much the killing power in the initial round of combat as it is the fact that they just take forever to break down. With that many wounds hanging around and sarges to absorb challenges, Imperial Guard infantry are ironically one of the better assault units in the game, if only for the fact that they have so many great ally options to give them special rules to make them better at melee.
Power blobs are what got me into 40k and IG back at the start of 5th edition. 4 - 30man blobs each with a commissar all with power swords and Straken, the rest Leman Russ tanks. Goes from 900pts to 940pts I think with the new cost of commissars. In today's games I lose a blob a turn (even with lots of cover). I am just glad I made the power sword and plasma pistol arms magnetic so I can leave them in my box and hope they drop in points some time soon.
A guardsmen sergeant with a power sword is what 20pts?
A crusader with power axe, storm shield and WS4 is 15pts.
I still say they can't take away all these things from our old codex without adding back. (more than just a bad transport and wyvern)
No news on the Manticore, unless I missed it, right?
It, the Deathstrike, Hydra, WhyVern? and the Basilisk will be all that's left of Artillery if the rumors hold out, right?
alarmingrick wrote: No news on the Manticore, unless I missed it, right?
It, the Deathstrike, Hydra, WhyVern? and the Basilisk will be all that's left of Artillery if the rumors hold out, right?
alarmingrick wrote: No news on the Manticore, unless I missed it, right?
It, the Deathstrike, Hydra, WhyVern? and the Basilisk will be all that's left of Artillery if the rumors hold out, right?
Assume a manticore nerf and you'll be fine.
At this point I'd be disappointed with anything less!
H.B.M.C. wrote: Man... do we even need any more proof that the people writing these books neither understand the game they're writing for nor care what rules they churn out. I mean... Ogryn are terrible for the 4th book in a row. What the hell does that tell you?
Nothing printable. In short, that Games Workshop's rule division is, like the marketing department of the Sirius Cybernetics Corporation, "a bunch of mindless jerks who'll be the first against the wall when the revolution comes."
H.B.M.C. wrote: No, the tragic part is that there was a court-case between a litigious bully and a third-party model maker and the loser wasn't either of them: It was us.
On the plus side, there has never been a better time to quit playing Games Workshop games. I sold a huge chunk of my Space Marines yesterday, and my Guard will follow suit. there's bound to be a rube out there that'll buy a few platoons of infantry and a Baneblade.
Kirasu wrote: At a highly competitive level you'll get laughed out of the tournament for bringing Sentinels.
Looks like tournament players haven't changed much over the years, then. Used to be that weathering the list-based insults and crude innuendo was a whole subgame in itself. It's like a funhouse mirror version of professional MTG, with all the seriousness and giant egos, but with none of the big winnings that actually make those traits somewhat understandable.
No. IG were great in 5th because they were the first 5th edition codex and took full advantage of the 5th edition improvements to transports, but they aren't all that great anymore. They need a nerf or two (Vendettas mostly), but mostly what they need is some changes to make the forgotten stuff like rough riders and ratlings more useful. I can't see any way to justify an overall nerf to the army when Tau and Eldar are so much more powerful right now.
And of course the changes are especially stupid because GW nerfed things that were already bad (power weapons and plasma pistols) for no apparent reason. It's amazing to me that someone stupid enough to make those changes could actually be employed as a game designer.
IG were strong but not unbeatable which made the army solid, its not like this franken army feth fest we are experiencing now. GW seems hell bent on destroying anything that has to do with competitive.
Kirasu wrote: At a highly competitive level you'll get laughed out of the tournament for bringing Sentinels.
Looks like tournament players haven't changed much over the years, then. Used to be that weathering the list-based insults and crude innuendo was a whole subgame in itself. It's like a funhouse mirror version of professional MTG, with all the seriousness and giant egos, but with none of the big winnings that actually make those traits somewhat understandable.
Tournaments used to be won by good generals and net lists were generally one trick ponies that a balanced all comers could deal with, now the high ranks of 40k are filled with the MtG types and you are actively punished for not taking deathstar bull gak.
If blobs take a 5 point hit on power weapons it's not that bad of a hit compared to the unmitigated shenanigans they can pull off if IG gets the same priests that AS get.
For the cost of 5 guardsmen add a power fist that go up to Str8 with an allied hammerhand and instant death T5 or less after rad grenades do their -1 Toughness.
Fearless and Hatred for 5 guardsmen when a priest is added. The entire blob also gains shred if the priest passes a leadership test on 7. Commissars will probably be added to make the leadership 9
A 2nd priest can allow the entire blob to reroll armor saves in cc.
For the price of 3 guardsmen priests can take a weapon preferably a power maul. For 8 guardsmen a priest with a maul can give himself smash. His 2 base attacks will go down to 1 + 1 for extra ccw + 1 for charge and he will have 3 attacks at S10 ap2 on the charge. That's enough to ID T6 MC with rad grenades and no psychic tests.
Of course all of these shenanigans will also work with ogyrns/bulgryns, we just need to wait for the codex to drop before it becomes obvious if blobs or ogryns are better.
General Hobbs wrote: Did I see that correctly? Veterans squads are going to be part of platoons now the same was as SWS, conscripts, HWTS etc?
Probably not. It looks like that screenshot is showing a list of all the troops units available to IG, and then the individual units say "must be taken as part of a platoon". At least let's hope that's what it is, since that would absolutely destroy veteran-based armies and drive a lot more players to ragequit.
Smitty wrote: I'm actually thinking of completing my armored company because Pask appears to be absolutely glorious. Fun fact:
In a Leman Russ Punisher, Pask can kill a Land Raider because he gets rending, can re-roll armor penetration, and gets preferred enemy against it with 20 shots. That is ridiculous.
You say that like it's a bad thing
Hardly! I almost crapped myself when I rolled it out and a dead land raider was the first result I got.
As someone who's currently more involved in the hobby aspect of the game, I'm happy to see the new Stormtroopers which are far and away the highlight of their codex... er... former codex? Anyways, I like all the new models except for that plastic Commissar. He looks more cartoony than his predecessor models wearing an even bigger hat and holding a wonky-looking sword.
I'd like to hope that they've got a fourth wave up their sleeves. Like new Catachan models...
So, in conclusion, we didn't get a new tank? I do not recognise that Hydra thing as new.
Automatically Appended Next Post: ... and, the Storm Troopers everyone's been waiting for our their own army that requires a £30.00 Codex to use. Is that right? If so, I am hugely, hugely dissapoint!
Tower75 wrote: So, in conclusion, we didn't get a new tank? I do not recognise that Hydra thing as new.
We haven't had any more rumours of a large tank nor the rumoured flyer, I'm guessing we aren't getting them.
Overall, I find it a pretty disappointing release. I'd have rather seen a Colossus or Medusa kit than the Wyvern, instead we're losing the Colossus, Medusa and Griffon. I'd like to have seen a new flyer. The Taurox is frak ugly, apparently the only way they could make it appealing was to nerf the Chimera. ST models are ok but I really don't care because we already had good ST options.
The only thing I really find interesting is the tank commanders.
So much rage everywhere. People quitting the game because GW made something unsuitable to them. How childish.
I find this behavior as main ruining force of 40k.
Othervise, I don't find leaked stuff trustworthy. In the book after release, it might be different.
Tower75 wrote: So, in conclusion, we didn't get a new tank? I do not recognise that Hydra thing as new.
Automatically Appended Next Post: ... and, the Storm Troopers everyone's been waiting for our their own army that requires a £30.00 Codex to use. Is that right? If so, I am hugely, hugely dissapoint!
The wyvern is new, and if the rumored 65 point price tag is true then they are going to be very vicious for their price.
Hawky wrote: So much rage everywhere. People quitting the game because GW made something they didn't like. How childish. I find this behavior as main ruining force of 40k.
So you'd rather people who don't want to play 40k anymore still did so whilst holding the game in utter contempt? Yeah, because that would surely lead to a great community spirit! "Rage" is being grossly overused here, too, presumably because you want to paint more people as being unreasonable and worthy of being dismissed. But really, even if people were just ragequitting, I'd rather take those genuine expressions of emotion and opinions than the tedious and repetitive mewlings of the vacuous brigade of semiprofessional milksops who are making such a mockery of proceedings here.
Besides, selling off unwanted IG armies at this point is just good business. Plenty of people wanting to get onto the bandwagon, and the fool and his money are a friendship easily parted. In other words, cha-ching.
Hawky wrote: So much rage everywhere. People quitting the game because GW made something unsuitable to them. How childish.
I find this behavior as main ruining force of 40k.
People SAYING they'll rage quit, because they're on the internet and don't have to be held accountable to what to they say.
Take rumors with buckets of salt, which clutching your poor Medusa. I'm going to miss them.
Tower75 wrote: So, in conclusion, we didn't get a new tank? I do not recognise that Hydra thing as new.
Automatically Appended Next Post: ... and, the Storm Troopers everyone's been waiting for our their own army that requires a £30.00 Codex to use. Is that right? If so, I am hugely, hugely dissapoint!
No, they'll still be an Elites choice in Astra Militarum, you don't need the codex unless you want to field them as a standalone army. The info is all here in the thread.
maceria wrote: People SAYING they'll rage quit, because they're on the internet and don't have to be held accountable to what to they say.
It's pretty hard to prove you've quit a game. What evidence do I have that I've not played 40k since November 2012? Should I take a photo of the light layer of dust on my Russes? Or one of the empty shelf that used to hold a pile of unbuilt 3rd edition Tactical Marines?
maceria wrote: People SAYING they'll rage quit, because they're on the internet and don't have to be held accountable to what to they say.
It's pretty hard to prove you've quit a game. What evidence do I have that I've not played 40k since November 2012? Should I take a photo of the light layer of dust on my Russes? Or one of the empty shelf that used to hold a pile of unbuilt 3rd edition Tactical Marines?
This isnt a hate message or anything but if you dont play 40k why do do you post and talk about 40k rules etc? It just seems kind of pointless.
maceria wrote: People SAYING they'll rage quit, because they're on the internet and don't have to be held accountable to what to they say.
It's pretty hard to prove you've quit a game. What evidence do I have that I've not played 40k since November 2012? Should I take a photo of the light layer of dust on my Russes? Or one of the empty shelf that used to hold a pile of unbuilt 3rd edition Tactical Marines?
This isnt a hate message or anything but if you dont play 40k why do do you post and talk about 40k rules etc? It just seems kind of pointless.
Even if you dislike the game, you might like the community.
Hawky wrote: So much rage everywhere. People quitting the game because GW made something unsuitable to them. How childish.
I find this behavior as main ruining force of 40k.
Yeah, how dare people quit when the game is no longer fun. They should just keep giving GW money because GW's needs are more important.
Othervise, I don't find leaked stuff trustworthy. In the book after release, it might be different.
That's just wishful thinking. At least one source has posted pictures of the codex, which proves that they have a copy and are quoting from it, not just passing on rumors. It would be extremely unlikely for any of the information we have now to be false.
meh, these changes are super underwhelming, and as an IG player who was already getting torn apart in the taudar/screamerstar meta looking for something interesting, I'm not happy. 6th seems to be the xenos edition, which is great for them, finally they can quit whining about it.
A new transport when I was already dumping chimeras for being fragile? Not helpful. It's ugly as sin too. A new artillery? It's not bad, may be better than the griffon, but its so similar it doesn't feel new.
I'm not really upset though, since there are so many FW units. I can just take avengers, or field the armored fist list, if GW was going to ruin any codex IG have the most options to basically ignore it thanks to FW
maceria wrote: People SAYING they'll rage quit, because they're on the internet and don't have to be held accountable to what to they say.
It's pretty hard to prove you've quit a game. What evidence do I have that I've not played 40k since November 2012? Should I take a photo of the light layer of dust on my Russes? Or one of the empty shelf that used to hold a pile of unbuilt 3rd edition Tactical Marines?
Put your stuff on ebay. That'd be pretty good evidence.
maceria wrote: People SAYING they'll rage quit, because they're on the internet and don't have to be held accountable to what to they say.
It's pretty hard to prove you've quit a game. What evidence do I have that I've not played 40k since November 2012? Should I take a photo of the light layer of dust on my Russes? Or one of the empty shelf that used to hold a pile of unbuilt 3rd edition Tactical Marines?
Put your stuff on ebay. That'd be pretty good evidence.
haha thats pretty funny.
But we shouldnt be encouraging people to quit. I think every one at least should wait to see whats actually in it and so on before they do anything.
Hawky wrote: So much rage everywhere. People quitting the game because GW made something unsuitable to them. How childish.
I find this behavior as main ruining force of 40k.
Othervise, I don't find leaked stuff trustworthy. In the book after release, it might be different.
I get what you're saying, to an extent.
There's always been a strand of opinion on these boards that moans that Codex X is too powerful, but then they moan when the new Codex Y is not powerful enough! Sort of, as long as my army is the best, I don't care!
In saying that, most people here just want a fun game, and that they recognise it's just bits of plastic being shuffled around a table, at the end of the day.
I can also sympathise with people over price, game balance, and a muddle of expansions that has left some people scratching their heads. But as I always say, you don't like it, don't buy it! Plenty of other companies out there doing good stuff for cheaper.
So far I very disappointed in this new release. I had hoped for another competitive or at least fun codex to possibly challenge the Tau or Eldar. Instead we get 25% point increases on our current transports, unit removals, increased weapon prices,and one new unit that poorly replaces the missing unit. Where are the new units? New regiments? New rules? Nothing. The IG have lost both flavor and competitiveness. Overall this release seems to place the IG firmly into the mid-tier, perhaps even lower.
The only people that seem to be of good cheer with this release are those that say the IG was undercosted anyway.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: There's always been a strand of opinion on these boards that moans that Codex X is too powerful, but then they moan when the new Codex Y is not powerful enough! Sort of, as long as my army is the best, I don't care!
This isn't it at all. There are two main complaints right now, and neither of them are about "make my army more powerful":
1) The removal of characters and units for no good reason. Once again GW's idiotic "if we don't have a model kit with X on the box then we won't publish rules for X" paranoia is damaging the game. They're so terrified of someone else making some money off their IP that they'd rather lose money by getting rid of that part of the IP entirely. And we, the customers, just have to deal with having our beloved armies turned into shelf decorations.
2) The nerfing of things which didn't need to be nerfed. Only an absolute ing idiot would think that power fists on IG sergeants needed to be more expensive. Unfortunately, GW's rule authors (I refuse to call such hopeless incompetents game designers) are just that kind of idiot. These changes might not have much of an effect on the power of the army since so few people used the options anyway, but they're more proof that GW has no clue how the game works and doesn't give a if they publish garbage as long as someone still buys it.
You'll notice that the very justified nerf to the Vendetta hasn't drawn much criticism, outside of the mismatch between the model and the rules for its transport capacity. Everyone knew it was too powerful, and even IG players are fine with having it nerfed a bit.
Hawky wrote: So much rage everywhere. People quitting the game because GW made something unsuitable to them. How childish.
I find this behavior as main ruining force of 40k.
Yeah, how dare people quit when the game is no longer fun. They should just keep giving GW money because GW's needs are more important.
Peregrine there is a middle ground between rage quitting and being a brainless white knight for GW. My point is that even if GWdevs don't have the slightest knowledge how the game is really played outside their precious ivory tower we can fix many of their stupid mistakes with a simple mail to a friend saying "what about 1500pts next week using Siege of Vraks rules" or a "fancy going back to 5th ed for a change?"
Hawky wrote: So much rage everywhere. People quitting the game because GW made something unsuitable to them. How childish.
I find this behavior as main ruining force of 40k.
Othervise, I don't find leaked stuff trustworthy. In the book after release, it might be different.
Well of the armies I collect, I have both IG and 'nids. GW already took an unbalanced 'nid codex and made it worse, now they're taking IG and removing options I liked and not really adding anything interesting.
I'm not quitting (yet), but yeah, I'm disappointed thus far. Maybe the actual book will be a shining beacon of hope, somehow I doubt that. GW game developers have proven they don't know understand their own game system or at the very least don't give a damn.
I find this behavior as main ruining force of 40k.
The question is, does 40k attract people with crappy attitudes or does GW turn perfectly normal people in to people with crappy attitudes?
Miguelsan wrote: My point is that even if GWdevs don't have the slightest knowledge how the game is really played outside their precious ivory tower we can fix many of their stupid mistakes with a simple mail to a friend saying "what about 1500pts next week using Siege of Vraks rules" or a "fancy going back to 5th ed for a change?"
That's assuming anyone wants to go back and play with old rules. Maybe if you have friends who play and a history together you can do it, but for random pickup games that's pretty much wishful thinking.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: There's always been a strand of opinion on these boards that moans that Codex X is too powerful, but then they moan when the new Codex Y is not powerful enough! Sort of, as long as my army is the best, I don't care!
Really... that's what you get from people complaining about varying power levels, that everyone wants their own army to be the best? Bit of a shallow view you have right there. The far more logical thing conclusion from people complaining about some codices being too powerful and others being not powerful enough is that people want some semblance of BALANCE in the rules.
Also, at this point, I'm not complaining about the power level of the new Codex. We have no idea what random monobuilds IG will have that are competitive. What I am complaining about (or more, expressing disappointed over) is removal of options we used to have, lack of anything interesting for the new release and the nerfing of things that shouldn't have been nerfed (I mean really, who ever though IG power weapons/fists were so powerful as to require a points rise? Or that a Chimera was really too much for the points you paid? The only one that really makes sense is the Vendetta).
Apparently even GW admits that they "made a mistake" with certain super OP Tau and Eldar units and combintations but it seems they can't be bothered to fix their mistakes anymore - hence no more FAQs etc.
The recent Codexes have been either copy paste or minimal effort, although at least the Knights one did have some decent fluff and artwork.
Everyone who was in favour of game blance knew the Vendetta had to be changed (same as we know this with the Riptide and Wave Serpent) but GW keep making bizare changes - like the power fist one.
I doubt they will bother updating any of the other codexes with Chimera in so they will be different in diffierent books....
Perhaps they will have the Regimental Tactics but I doubt it - it gives people more chance of playing non Cadian (ie non GW) models and so is heresy.......sad really
Miguelsan wrote: My point is that even if GWdevs don't have the slightest knowledge how the game is really played outside their precious ivory tower we can fix many of their stupid mistakes with a simple mail to a friend saying "what about 1500pts next week using Siege of Vraks rules" or a "fancy going back to 5th ed for a change?"
That's assuming anyone wants to go back and play with old rules. Maybe if you have friends who play and a history together you can do it, but for random pickup games that's pretty much wishful thinking.
Those were just examples. I was suggesting that with the amount of GW and FW already published people can arrange the game to suit them and ignore GW with some forethought.
Also I would suggest for you to start cultivating the player group you want to play (one of the few interesting things Jervis has managed to write recently). If Timmy is TFG that makes your enjoyment of the game go down the drain is it that difficult for you to arrange games with other players more suitable to your play style instead of pickup games and send Timmy to GWHQ for good?
Swastakowey wrote: This isnt a hate message or anything but if you dont play 40k why do do you post and talk about 40k rules etc? It just seems kind of pointless.
I'm a collector and modeler. I have, of old, a sizeable number of GW models. Beyond that, my motivations are my own.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: There's always been a strand of opinion on these boards that moans that Codex X is too powerful, but then they moan when the new Codex Y is not powerful enough! Sort of, as long as my army is the best, I don't care!
Really... that's what you get from people complaining about varying power levels, that everyone wants their own army to be the best? Bit of a shallow view you have right there. The far more logical thing conclusion from people complaining about some codices being too powerful and others being not powerful enough is that people want some semblance of BALANCE in the rules.
Also, at this point, I'm not complaining about the power level of the new Codex. We have no idea what random monobuilds IG will have that are competitive. What I am complaining about (or more, expressing disappointed over) is removal of options we used to have, lack of anything interesting for the new release and the nerfing of things that shouldn't have been nerfed (I mean really, who ever though IG power weapons/fists were so powerful as to require a points rise? Or that a Chimera was really too much for the points you paid? The only one that really makes sense is the Vendetta).
Fair points, especially the one about power fists being more expensive. . I should have made it clearer in my earlier post that the strand was a minority, and not a majority.
Going slightly OT here, but what is balance? I remember when the Daemons got their army book for fantasy a couple of years ago, people complained that it was too powerful. My reaction was get some daemons, I might win some games. So there I was at a local tournament with my Daemon army. Result? Five games played, five crushing defeats inflicted upon my poor daemons.
Some players. i.e me, are so bad, that even powerful armies are not enough for victory!
Back OT I like the look of the stormtrooper berets. real men wear berets!
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: There's always been a strand of opinion on these boards that moans that Codex X is too powerful, but then they moan when the new Codex Y is not powerful enough! Sort of, as long as my army is the best, I don't care!
This isn't it at all. There are two main complaints right now, and neither of them are about "make my army more powerful":
1) The removal of characters and units for no good reason. Once again GW's idiotic "if we don't have a model kit with X on the box then we won't publish rules for X" paranoia is damaging the game. They're so terrified of someone else making some money off their IP that they'd rather lose money by getting rid of that part of the IP entirely. And we, the customers, just have to deal with having our beloved armies turned into shelf decorations.
2) The nerfing of things which didn't need to be nerfed. Only an absolute ing idiot would think that power fists on IG sergeants needed to be more expensive. Unfortunately, GW's rule authors (I refuse to call such hopeless incompetents game designers) are just that kind of idiot. These changes might not have much of an effect on the power of the army since so few people used the options anyway, but they're more proof that GW has no clue how the game works and doesn't give a if they publish garbage as long as someone still buys it.
You'll notice that the very justified nerf to the Vendetta hasn't drawn much criticism, outside of the mismatch between the model and the rules for its transport capacity. Everyone knew it was too powerful, and even IG players are fine with having it nerfed a bit.
I agree with most of what you say, but maybe the powerfist increase is no more than a simple printing error?
AllSeeingSkink wrote: What I am complaining about (or more, expressing disappointed over) is removal of options we used to have.
This is pretty much where I stand on this release. I didn't want or expect IG to suddenty become a better army, the 5th Ed book was fine game-wise, plenty versatile and balanced against almost everything but Tau/Eldar cheese lists. What gets me is the removal of options that, in many ways, invalidate some key IG playstyles.
Chenkov going brings an end to the 'endless horde' conscript army, unless SITNW becomes a base option for Conscripts. Al'Rahem means mass-outflanking is far harder to do effectively, as there's no way to outflank a whole platoon as separate units. Artillery Gunlines are now far more diffucult to pull off, with the loss of 3/4 of our Ordnance Battery options.
You see this a lot - where people complain about X or Y balance change based on their experience with the game, without appreciating that their experience is by definition limited to their local meta.
Perhaps IG power fists saw more action in the studio.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: What I am complaining about (or more, expressing disappointed over) is removal of options we used to have.
This is pretty much where I stand on this release. I didn't want or expect IG to suddenty become a better army, the 5th Ed book was fine game-wise, plenty versatile and balanced against almost everything but Tau/Eldar cheese lists. What gets me is the removal of options that, in many ways, invalidate some key IG playstyles.
maceria wrote: People SAYING they'll rage quit, because they're on the internet and don't have to be held accountable to what to they say.
It's pretty hard to prove you've quit a game. What evidence do I have that I've not played 40k since November 2012? Should I take a photo of the light layer of dust on my Russes? Or one of the empty shelf that used to hold a pile of unbuilt 3rd edition Tactical Marines?
This isnt a hate message or anything but if you dont play 40k why do do you post and talk about 40k rules etc? It just seems kind of pointless.
Even if you dislike the game, you might like the community.
You mean this community? The one right here? The beacon of wit, modesty, and optimism?
maceria wrote: People SAYING they'll rage quit, because they're on the internet and don't have to be held accountable to what to they say.
It's pretty hard to prove you've quit a game. What evidence do I have that I've not played 40k since November 2012? Should I take a photo of the light layer of dust on my Russes? Or one of the empty shelf that used to hold a pile of unbuilt 3rd edition Tactical Marines?
So, you are not playing the game for two years (almost) but are still dancing around and shoving your rage into other peoples faces? Yeah, its the same like penis. I believe you have it, but I dont need to be slapped by it But, otherwise, I see you as pitiable victim, being out of game for such a time and still needing to fret about it on the internet. You dont play but spend whole days on Dakka telling other people how this and that codex is simply bad and GW is evil? Mate, it sound serious...
So, sorry, Im pretty much happy about the info so far and I wont stop playing...and, honestly, Im not interested in your quitting. Good for you. Or would be, if not...
maceria wrote: People SAYING they'll rage quit, because they're on the internet and don't have to be held accountable to what to they say.
It's pretty hard to prove you've quit a game. What evidence do I have that I've not played 40k since November 2012? Should I take a photo of the light layer of dust on my Russes? Or one of the empty shelf that used to hold a pile of unbuilt 3rd edition Tactical Marines?
This isnt a hate message or anything but if you dont play 40k why do do you post and talk about 40k rules etc? It just seems kind of pointless.
Even if you dislike the game, you might like the community.
You mean this community? The one right here? The beacon of wit, modesty, and optimism?
maceria wrote: People SAYING they'll rage quit, because they're on the internet and don't have to be held accountable to what to they say.
It's pretty hard to prove you've quit a game. What evidence do I have that I've not played 40k since November 2012? Should I take a photo of the light layer of dust on my Russes? Or one of the empty shelf that used to hold a pile of unbuilt 3rd edition Tactical Marines?
This isnt a hate message or anything but if you dont play 40k why do do you post and talk about 40k rules etc? It just seems kind of pointless.
Even if you dislike the game, you might like the community.
You mean this community? The one right here? The beacon of wit, modesty, and optimism?
I think the Chimera nerf is being viewed with the sort of tunnel vision people had with Belial's points nerf. Belial was massively undercosted in the previous DA Codex and people cried doom and designer idiocy at his massive points increase, despite the fact that for all his advantages it was entirely justified- the only thing that doesn't make him worthwhile is the fact the playstyle he's associated with is isn't good, frankly.
I mean really, the Razorback is 55 for TLHB, has less armour, less firepower and less carry capacity. Compared to the Rhino, 20 points buys you 6 midstrength long range shots an armour that lets you survive more than a turn on the front.
The Chimera was a bit too cheap, arguably. People should stop whinging about smokes and searchlights, both of those are far from mandatory, 95% of the time you'll want to be shooting or exploiting flat out instead, or you'll be behind something like a Leman Russ for a consistent cover save/LOS blockage that renders them effectively moot. Searchlights are 1 pt. Big deal.
Paying 30-40 points extra army wide will also possibly get balanced out by everything else getting cheaper. The points cost of most things hasn't leaked so calling doom at this point is idiotic.
maceria wrote: People SAYING they'll rage quit, because they're on the internet and don't have to be held accountable to what to they say.
It's pretty hard to prove you've quit a game. What evidence do I have that I've not played 40k since November 2012? Should I take a photo of the light layer of dust on my Russes? Or one of the empty shelf that used to hold a pile of unbuilt 3rd edition Tactical Marines?
This isnt a hate message or anything but if you dont play 40k why do do you post and talk about 40k rules etc? It just seems kind of pointless.
Even if you dislike the game, you might like the community.
You mean this community? The one right here? The beacon of wit, modesty, and optimism?
Hey, some people like the looks of the Taurox too, so people who like the 40k community shouldn't be a surprising phenomena either .
MajorWesJanson wrote: You mean this community? The one right here? The beacon of wit, modesty, and optimism?
If you don't like it, then leave.
Seriously, everyone's favorite counter to the GW hate is equally applicable in regards to Dakka and its supposedly awful community full of negativity and trolls. In fact the GW haters have more of a right to be here than you do, as they can still partake in discussions about other company's games and products and still enjoy the wider wargaming hobby outside of GW's juvenile "fortress wall" (you know, when we're not raging about GW being fething idiots). If you don't like the community in general then why are you here? No one's forcing you to subject yourself to it, are they?
I don't get the hate for the points increase of the Chimera. I don't understand how the points increase of PFs and PWs is a bad thing considering the abuse that will likely otherwise be possible through blobs.
Pask on the other hand? Could turn out to be awfully OP and imbalanced if not priced correctly...
Because a marine sgt is T4 3+ unit and S8 when using a PF while a IG sgt is more squishy, worse save and only S6 while his PF costs the same. Plus now blobs cannot be used to hide PF sgts with the current rules. So having the same "different" piece of equipment cost 25pts when in one case is much more useful than the other is bad rule design.
Increasing the cost of PF and PWs (Yet to be confirmed) means a powerfist will cost half as much as a 10 man guardsmen squad which makes no sense and leaves PFs as a totally irrelevant equipment choice.
Also with the Vandetta nerfed to transport capacity of 6 it kind of makes sense for transporting platoons as in the Imperial Navy one Vandetta is usually assigned to every two Valkyries.
So the Vandetta can carry the PCS while the two Valkyries can carry two Guardsmen squads.
Well thats how I see it as an Elysian Drop Troop player anyway
On the whole I don't have an issue with the rumors for this codex, and surprisingly the Taurox actually fills a void in my army for transporting my Kasrkin's so I'm happy. The new codex cover is pretty awesome too.
Johnson101 wrote: Increasing the cost of PF and PWs (Yet to be confirmed) means a powerfist will cost half as much as a 10 man guardsmen squad which makes no sense and leaves PFs as a totally irrelevant equipment choice.
Also with the Vandetta nerfed to transport capacity of 6 it kind of makes sense for transporting platoons as in the Imperial Navy one Vandetta is usually assigned to every two Valkyries.
So the Vandetta can carry the PCS while the two Valkyries can carry two Guardsmen squads.
Well thats how I see it as an Elysian Drop Troop player anyway
Vendettas work for Command Squads, Special Weapon Squads, and even Heavy Weapon squads (assuming the latter two don't go up in size)
Bull0 wrote: You see this a lot - where people complain about X or Y balance change based on their experience with the game, without appreciating that their experience is by definition limited to their local meta.
Perhaps IG power fists saw more action in the studio.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: What I am complaining about (or more, expressing disappointed over) is removal of options we used to have.
This is pretty much where I stand on this release. I didn't want or expect IG to suddenty become a better army, the 5th Ed book was fine game-wise, plenty versatile and balanced against almost everything but Tau/Eldar cheese lists. What gets me is the removal of options that, in many ways, invalidate some key IG playstyles.
Agreed.
Perhaps the IG powerfists saw more action in the studio? That or they assume everything operates like they do at the Throne of Skulls, Reading the latest WD left me with a sense of "...what in the hell occurred to allow this to happen?"
One fight detailed a Revenant Titan getting killed on turn two by Mephiston. Why would one of the fastest units in the game decide to be anywhere NEAR mephiston?
Another one talks about how impressive Riptides are in close combat, and how they killed in seperate games demon princes, soul grinders, and Sons of Fenris. Who decides they're going to use Riptides to walk up and punch someone?
Yet another game had a Baneblade player consistantly throw his baneblade shots onto units with a 3+ cover save due to venomthropes and intervening terrain. Baneblade can move 12" to reposition. WTF guy.
If they're using games like this for their consideration on game-balance, theres no damn way to figure out what they think is "balanced"
Also detailed in this weeks white dwarf? Game Designer Nic Ho states "Their real personality is shown through their infantry. When I started to work on the hydra I kept this in mind. This is why the turret is an open open with the crew exposed..."
Hydra was changed to open-topped not due to balancing, but because the designer was a goddamn twit.
Well, in my viewpoint, an enjoyable Imperial Guard codex was the one thing that could have pulled me back into the game - I stopped playing 40k about 6 months or so ago, so there was still potential for me to come back into it with an awesome release.
But yeah, this doesn't seem like an awesome release. Truth be told, I'm not even looking at buying the Astra Militarum codex at all. Which is a huge thing for me not to do.
Johnson101 wrote: Increasing the cost of PF and PWs (Yet to be confirmed) means a powerfist will cost half as much as a 10 man guardsmen squad which makes no sense and leaves PFs as a totally irrelevant equipment choice.
Also with the Vandetta nerfed to transport capacity of 6 it kind of makes sense for transporting platoons as in the Imperial Navy one Vandetta is usually assigned to every two Valkyries.
So the Vandetta can carry the PCS while the two Valkyries can carry two Guardsmen squads.
Well thats how I see it as an Elysian Drop Troop player anyway
Vendettas work for Command Squads, Special Weapon Squads, and even Heavy Weapon squads (assuming the latter two don't go up in size)
I always thought it was weird that the Vendetta managed to care such a massive armament without using any internal space for an enhanced power supply....
Hmmmm well so far I'm not too hopeful but I've ordered the codex anyways in the hopes that I actually enjoy it and get back into playing 40k. If not I'll have a nice book with fluff and artwork in
Also detailed in this weeks white dwarf? Game Designer Nic Ho states "Their real personality is shown through their infantry. When I started to work on the hydra I kept this in mind. This is why the turret is an open open with the crew exposed..."
Hydra was changed to open-topped not due to balancing, but because the designer was a goddamn twit.
Classic rule of cool - it was ever thus. And your comments on balancing are pretty accurate, I think - and that was basically my point, that their balancing is based on what they're up to, not what you or I or someone else are up to, so the original point of contention - "X should be cheaper because of my experience of Y" simply doesn't work.
Bull0 wrote: You see this a lot - where people complain about X or Y balance change based on their experience with the game, without appreciating that their experience is by definition limited to their local meta.
Perhaps IG power fists saw more action in the studio.
Yeah, now all I can imagine is the design studio guys playing test games where game after game they just charge IG infantry units straight at Terminators as fast as possible and one of the designers remarking "wow, those powerfists are really over powered, it's totally stopping the Terminators from wiping them instantly, better bump up the cost!".
Mr.Omega wrote: I think the Chimera nerf is being viewed with the sort of tunnel vision people had with Belial's points nerf. Belial was massively undercosted in the previous DA Codex and people cried doom and designer idiocy at his massive points increase, despite the fact that for all his advantages it was entirely justified- the only thing that doesn't make him worthwhile is the fact the playstyle he's associated with is isn't good, frankly.
Paying 30-40 points extra army wide will also possibly get balanced out by everything else getting cheaper. The points cost of most things hasn't leaked so calling doom at this point is idiotic.
Yeah DA is a pretty terrible army because of all these so called fixes. That's a pretty bad example to use when talking about rebalancing.
According to some bit of info my brother read some time ago one of the changes (can't remember which but I think it was foul related) to bloodbowl was the result of a new guy trouncing the studio teams one after the other.
Mr.Omega wrote: I think the Chimera nerf is being viewed with the sort of tunnel vision people had with Belial's points nerf. Belial was massively undercosted in the previous DA Codex and people cried doom and designer idiocy at his massive points increase, despite the fact that for all his advantages it was entirely justified- the only thing that doesn't make him worthwhile is the fact the playstyle he's associated with is isn't good, frankly.
Paying 30-40 points extra army wide will also possibly get balanced out by everything else getting cheaper. The points cost of most things hasn't leaked so calling doom at this point is idiotic.
Yeah DA is a pretty terrible army because of all these so called fixes. That's a pretty bad example to use when talking about rebalancing.
I wasn't talking about DA, I was talking about Belial explicitly and solely there. For all intents and purposes his rebalancing was good, but because he received a massive points increase he was immediately seen as being a bad.
I even pointed out that his associated playstyle was terribly balanced, so what is the point of this post?
Why was his rebalancing good when they in turn made Terminators an incredibly poor choice? You can't just look at Belial and go "okay he should cost more" when his ENTIRE purpose for existing was nerfed.
They made him more expensive because of abilities that were good in 5th edition with a codex from 4th edition, yeah that makes sense. Sounds exactly like what they did with the chimera.
Well I might "rage quit" the guard and go for space marines simply because of model costs and point costs, what's the point in paying for a power fist or lascannons that cost the same for a bs/ws 4 with a 3+ save compared to a guy that has practically no save to shooting. If the tanks cost a little less this might compensate but leman russes are probably very cheap to begin with. I struggle against my group who all play all death wing, thunder wolf cavalry with storm shields or grey knights so my army points cost is going up with a reduction to storm troopers and sentinals! 5th edition will continue until the marines are up and running
I have the books that allow use of THUDD-Guns already, I may break down and get the Codex Astra-Mil for the wyvern rules, or so, silly rename, sounds like silly changes, and if so, may stick with the older and last IG codex for the way it worked and my army coming from way out in the "boonies" as it were of the galaxy
Having used the new taurox properly, and the scions, the tank is ridiculously deadly, and with the gatling cannon can rip apart other units really quickly.
About that throne of skulls thing, well lets think about this. This game is not run by theorycrafters, where you look at the odds and the models and work out what should win. in that case a grey-knight paladin would never lose a fight to an nid gaunt, but they can. This game is 99% luck, 1% skill. We use DICE, you know cubes with little dots on that are random, hence why riptides could kill daemon princes or 'fexs in combat. As they say in football, when an underdog beats a big team, the ball is round.
Now imagine that someone has increased the price of the ball. And the ball(s) you've spent years collecting, saving up for and painting isn't/aren't legal.
Now you have to spend more money to get the "correct" ball(s).
Left Hand of the Pheonix wrote: Having used the new taurox properly, and the scions, the tank is ridiculously deadly, and with the gatling cannon can rip apart other units really quickly.
About that throne of skulls thing, well lets think about this. This game is not run by theorycrafters, where you look at the odds and the models and work out what should win. in that case a grey-knight paladin would never lose a fight to an nid gaunt, but they can. This game is 99% luck, 1% skill. We use DICE, you know cubes with little dots on that are random, hence why riptides could kill daemon princes or 'fexs in combat. As they say in football, when an underdog beats a big team, the ball is round.
Yeah, coz when the Guardsman with a powerfist brings down a Hive Tyrant that clearly means the powerfist is worth the same as it is in the hands of a Space Marine.
Wait, no it doesn't.
Game balance can't be based off what could occasionally sometimes happen, it is based off what is most likely to happen, what happens if things go worse than planned, what happens if things go better than planned (and how frequently things go better/worse) and how well the unit fits in to the rest of its army. You can get a long way to figuring that out based off previous experience, math, etc, and then tweak it with many many games of play testing (not just 1 or 2 games where someone decided to charge something they shouldn't and got lucky and won).
Game balance can't be based off what could occasionally sometimes happen, it is based off what is most likely to happen, what happens if things go worse than planned, what happens if things go better than planned (and how frequently things go better/worse) and how well the unit fits in to the rest of its army.
(because I want to have warlord with add order...or tactical megagenius...or...everything
ing idiot would think that power fists on 
