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 AtoMaki wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:

maceria wrote:
People SAYING they'll rage quit, because they're on the internet and don't have to be held accountable to what to they say.

It's pretty hard to prove you've quit a game. What evidence do I have that I've not played 40k since November 2012? Should I take a photo of the light layer of dust on my Russes? Or one of the empty shelf that used to hold a pile of unbuilt 3rd edition Tactical Marines?

This isnt a hate message or anything but if you dont play 40k why do do you post and talk about 40k rules etc? It just seems kind of pointless.

Even if you dislike the game, you might like the community.

You mean this community? The one right here? The beacon of wit, modesty, and optimism?

 Agamemnon2 wrote:

maceria wrote:
People SAYING they'll rage quit, because they're on the internet and don't have to be held accountable to what to they say.

It's pretty hard to prove you've quit a game. What evidence do I have that I've not played 40k since November 2012? Should I take a photo of the light layer of dust on my Russes? Or one of the empty shelf that used to hold a pile of unbuilt 3rd edition Tactical Marines?

So, you are not playing the game for two years (almost) but are still dancing around and shoving your rage into other peoples faces? Yeah, its the same like penis. I believe you have it, but I dont need to be slapped by it
But, otherwise, I see you as pitiable victim, being out of game for such a time and still needing to fret about it on the internet. You dont play but spend whole days on Dakka telling other people how this and that codex is simply bad and GW is evil? Mate, it sound serious...

So, sorry, Im pretty much happy about the info so far and I wont stop playing...and, honestly, Im not interested in your quitting. Good for you. Or would be, if not...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:

maceria wrote:
People SAYING they'll rage quit, because they're on the internet and don't have to be held accountable to what to they say.

It's pretty hard to prove you've quit a game. What evidence do I have that I've not played 40k since November 2012? Should I take a photo of the light layer of dust on my Russes? Or one of the empty shelf that used to hold a pile of unbuilt 3rd edition Tactical Marines?

This isnt a hate message or anything but if you dont play 40k why do do you post and talk about 40k rules etc? It just seems kind of pointless.

Even if you dislike the game, you might like the community.

You mean this community? The one right here? The beacon of wit, modesty, and optimism?

Give this man a free bacon!

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:

maceria wrote:
People SAYING they'll rage quit, because they're on the internet and don't have to be held accountable to what to they say.

It's pretty hard to prove you've quit a game. What evidence do I have that I've not played 40k since November 2012? Should I take a photo of the light layer of dust on my Russes? Or one of the empty shelf that used to hold a pile of unbuilt 3rd edition Tactical Marines?

This isnt a hate message or anything but if you dont play 40k why do do you post and talk about 40k rules etc? It just seems kind of pointless.

Even if you dislike the game, you might like the community.

You mean this community? The one right here? The beacon of wit, modesty, and optimism?

I resent that. I am NOT witty.

I think the Chimera nerf is being viewed with the sort of tunnel vision people had with Belial's points nerf. Belial was massively undercosted in the previous DA Codex and people cried doom and designer idiocy at his massive points increase, despite the fact that for all his advantages it was entirely justified- the only thing that doesn't make him worthwhile is the fact the playstyle he's associated with is isn't good, frankly.

I mean really, the Razorback is 55 for TL HB, has less armour, less firepower and less carry capacity. Compared to the Rhino, 20 points buys you 6 midstrength long range shots an armour that lets you survive more than a turn on the front.

The Chimera was a bit too cheap, arguably. People should stop whinging about smokes and searchlights, both of those are far from mandatory, 95% of the time you'll want to be shooting or exploiting flat out instead, or you'll be behind something like a Leman Russ for a consistent cover save/LOS blockage that renders them effectively moot. Searchlights are 1 pt. Big deal.

Paying 30-40 points extra army wide will also possibly get balanced out by everything else getting cheaper. The points cost of most things hasn't leaked so calling doom at this point is idiotic.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:

maceria wrote:
People SAYING they'll rage quit, because they're on the internet and don't have to be held accountable to what to they say.

It's pretty hard to prove you've quit a game. What evidence do I have that I've not played 40k since November 2012? Should I take a photo of the light layer of dust on my Russes? Or one of the empty shelf that used to hold a pile of unbuilt 3rd edition Tactical Marines?

This isnt a hate message or anything but if you dont play 40k why do do you post and talk about 40k rules etc? It just seems kind of pointless.

Even if you dislike the game, you might like the community.

You mean this community? The one right here? The beacon of wit, modesty, and optimism?

Hey, some people like the looks of the Taurox too, so people who like the 40k community shouldn't be a surprising phenomena either .

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
You mean this community? The one right here? The beacon of wit, modesty, and optimism?

If you don't like it, then leave.

Seriously, everyone's favorite counter to the GW hate is equally applicable in regards to Dakka and its supposedly awful community full of negativity and trolls. In fact the GW haters have more of a right to be here than you do, as they can still partake in discussions about other company's games and products and still enjoy the wider wargaming hobby outside of GW's juvenile "fortress wall" (you know, when we're not raging about GW being fething idiots). If you don't like the community in general then why are you here? No one's forcing you to subject yourself to it, are they?

 Sidstyler wrote:

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
You mean this community? The one right here? The beacon of wit, modesty, and optimism?

If you don't like it, then leave.

This is awfully circular. Perhaps we should move on?

I don't get the hate for the points increase of the Chimera. I don't understand how the points increase of PFs and PWs is a bad thing considering the abuse that will likely otherwise be possible through blobs.

Pask on the other hand? Could turn out to be awfully OP and imbalanced if not priced correctly...

Because a marine sgt is T4 3+ unit and S8 when using a PF while a IG sgt is more squishy, worse save and only S6 while his PF costs the same. Plus now blobs cannot be used to hide PF sgts with the current rules. So having the same "different" piece of equipment cost 25pts when in one case is much more useful than the other is bad rule design.

M.

Increasing the cost of PF and PWs (Yet to be confirmed) means a powerfist will cost half as much as a 10 man guardsmen squad which makes no sense and leaves PFs as a totally irrelevant equipment choice.

Also with the Vandetta nerfed to transport capacity of 6 it kind of makes sense for transporting platoons as in the Imperial Navy one Vandetta is usually assigned to every two Valkyries.
So the Vandetta can carry the PCS while the two Valkyries can carry two Guardsmen squads.
Well thats how I see it as an Elysian Drop Troop player anyway

On the whole I don't have an issue with the rumors for this codex, and surprisingly the Taurox actually fills a void in my army for transporting my Kasrkin's so I'm happy. The new codex cover is pretty awesome too.

 Johnson101 wrote:
Increasing the cost of PF and PWs (Yet to be confirmed) means a powerfist will cost half as much as a 10 man guardsmen squad which makes no sense and leaves PFs as a totally irrelevant equipment choice.

Also with the Vandetta nerfed to transport capacity of 6 it kind of makes sense for transporting platoons as in the Imperial Navy one Vandetta is usually assigned to every two Valkyries.
So the Vandetta can carry the PCS while the two Valkyries can carry two Guardsmen squads.
Well thats how I see it as an Elysian Drop Troop player anyway

Vendettas work for Command Squads, Special Weapon Squads, and even Heavy Weapon squads (assuming the latter two don't go up in size)

 Bull0 wrote:
You see this a lot - where people complain about X or Y balance change based on their experience with the game, without appreciating that their experience is by definition limited to their local meta.

Perhaps IG power fists saw more action in the studio.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Paradigm wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
What I am complaining about (or more, expressing disappointed over) is removal of options we used to have.

This is pretty much where I stand on this release. I didn't want or expect IG to suddenty become a better army, the 5th Ed book was fine game-wise, plenty versatile and balanced against almost everything but Tau/Eldar cheese lists. What gets me is the removal of options that, in many ways, invalidate some key IG playstyles.

Agreed.

Perhaps the IG powerfists saw more action in the studio? That or they assume everything operates like they do at the Throne of Skulls, Reading the latest WD left me with a sense of "...what in the hell occurred to allow this to happen?"

One fight detailed a Revenant Titan getting killed on turn two by Mephiston. Why would one of the fastest units in the game decide to be anywhere NEAR mephiston?

Another one talks about how impressive Riptides are in close combat, and how they killed in seperate games demon princes, soul grinders, and Sons of Fenris. Who decides they're going to use Riptides to walk up and punch someone?

Yet another game had a Baneblade player consistantly throw his baneblade shots onto units with a 3+ cover save due to venomthropes and intervening terrain. Baneblade can move 12" to reposition. WTF guy.

If they're using games like this for their consideration on game-balance, theres no damn way to figure out what they think is "balanced"

Also detailed in this weeks white dwarf? Game Designer Nic Ho states "Their real personality is shown through their infantry. When I started to work on the hydra I kept this in mind. This is why the turret is an open open with the crew exposed..."

Hydra was changed to open-topped not due to balancing, but because the designer was a goddamn twit.

edit: grammar & extra thought

Well, in my viewpoint, an enjoyable Imperial Guard codex was the one thing that could have pulled me back into the game - I stopped playing 40k about 6 months or so ago, so there was still potential for me to come back into it with an awesome release.

But yeah, this doesn't seem like an awesome release. Truth be told, I'm not even looking at buying the Astra Militarum codex at all. Which is a huge thing for me not to do.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

 Johnson101 wrote:
Increasing the cost of PF and PWs (Yet to be confirmed) means a powerfist will cost half as much as a 10 man guardsmen squad which makes no sense and leaves PFs as a totally irrelevant equipment choice.

Also with the Vandetta nerfed to transport capacity of 6 it kind of makes sense for transporting platoons as in the Imperial Navy one Vandetta is usually assigned to every two Valkyries.
So the Vandetta can carry the PCS while the two Valkyries can carry two Guardsmen squads.
Well thats how I see it as an Elysian Drop Troop player anyway

Vendettas work for Command Squads, Special Weapon Squads, and even Heavy Weapon squads (assuming the latter two don't go up in size)

I always thought it was weird that the Vendetta managed to care such a massive armament without using any internal space for an enhanced power supply....

Hmmmm well so far I'm not too hopeful but I've ordered the codex anyways in the hopes that I actually enjoy it and get back into playing 40k. If not I'll have a nice book with fluff and artwork in

 kir44n wrote:

Also detailed in this weeks white dwarf? Game Designer Nic Ho states "Their real personality is shown through their infantry. When I started to work on the hydra I kept this in mind. This is why the turret is an open open with the crew exposed..."

Hydra was changed to open-topped not due to balancing, but because the designer was a goddamn twit.

Classic rule of cool - it was ever thus. And your comments on balancing are pretty accurate, I think - and that was basically my point, that their balancing is based on what they're up to, not what you or I or someone else are up to, so the original point of contention - "X should be cheaper because of my experience of Y" simply doesn't work.

 Bull0 wrote:
You see this a lot - where people complain about X or Y balance change based on their experience with the game, without appreciating that their experience is by definition limited to their local meta.

Perhaps IG power fists saw more action in the studio.

Yeah, now all I can imagine is the design studio guys playing test games where game after game they just charge IG infantry units straight at Terminators as fast as possible and one of the designers remarking "wow, those powerfists are really over powered, it's totally stopping the Terminators from wiping them instantly, better bump up the cost!".

 Mr.Omega wrote:
I think the Chimera nerf is being viewed with the sort of tunnel vision people had with Belial's points nerf. Belial was massively undercosted in the previous DA Codex and people cried doom and designer idiocy at his massive points increase, despite the fact that for all his advantages it was entirely justified- the only thing that doesn't make him worthwhile is the fact the playstyle he's associated with is isn't good, frankly.

Paying 30-40 points extra army wide will also possibly get balanced out by everything else getting cheaper. The points cost of most things hasn't leaked so calling doom at this point is idiotic.

Yeah DA is a pretty terrible army because of all these so called fixes. That's a pretty bad example to use when talking about rebalancing.

According to some bit of info my brother read some time ago one of the changes (can't remember which but I think it was foul related) to bloodbowl was the result of a new guy trouncing the studio teams one after the other.

M.

 Kirasu wrote:

 Mr.Omega wrote:
I think the Chimera nerf is being viewed with the sort of tunnel vision people had with Belial's points nerf. Belial was massively undercosted in the previous DA Codex and people cried doom and designer idiocy at his massive points increase, despite the fact that for all his advantages it was entirely justified- the only thing that doesn't make him worthwhile is the fact the playstyle he's associated with is isn't good, frankly.

Paying 30-40 points extra army wide will also possibly get balanced out by everything else getting cheaper. The points cost of most things hasn't leaked so calling doom at this point is idiotic.

Yeah DA is a pretty terrible army because of all these so called fixes. That's a pretty bad example to use when talking about rebalancing.

I wasn't talking about DA, I was talking about Belial explicitly and solely there. For all intents and purposes his rebalancing was good, but because he received a massive points increase he was immediately seen as being a bad.

I even pointed out that his associated playstyle was terribly balanced, so what is the point of this post?

Why was his rebalancing good when they in turn made Terminators an incredibly poor choice? You can't just look at Belial and go "okay he should cost more" when his ENTIRE purpose for existing was nerfed.

They made him more expensive because of abilities that were good in 5th edition with a codex from 4th edition, yeah that makes sense. Sounds exactly like what they did with the chimera.

Well I might "rage quit" the guard and go for space marines simply because of model costs and point costs, what's the point in paying for a power fist or lascannons that cost the same for a bs/ws 4 with a 3+ save compared to a guy that has practically no save to shooting. If the tanks cost a little less this might compensate but leman russes are probably very cheap to begin with. I struggle against my group who all play all death wing, thunder wolf cavalry with storm shields or grey knights so my army points cost is going up with a reduction to storm troopers and sentinals! 5th edition will continue until the marines are up and running

Anyone else notice that the new hydra/wyvren kit is MORE expensive than a Russ?

I have the books that allow use of THUDD-Guns already, I may break down and get the Codex Astra-Mil for the wyvern rules, or so, silly rename, sounds like silly changes, and if so, may stick with the older and last IG codex for the way it worked and my army coming from way out in the "boonies" as it were of the galaxy

CountCyrus wrote:
Anyone else notice that the new hydra/wyvren kit is MORE expensive than a Russ?

You sound surprised.

Having used the new taurox properly, and the scions, the tank is ridiculously deadly, and with the gatling cannon can rip apart other units really quickly.

About that throne of skulls thing, well lets think about this. This game is not run by theorycrafters, where you look at the odds and the models and work out what should win. in that case a grey-knight paladin would never lose a fight to an nid gaunt, but they can. This game is 99% luck, 1% skill. We use DICE, you know cubes with little dots on that are random, hence why riptides could kill daemon princes or 'fexs in combat. As they say in football, when an underdog beats a big team, the ball is round.

Left Hand of the Pheonix wrote:
....... the ball is round.

Now imagine that someone has increased the price of the ball. And the ball(s) you've spent years collecting, saving up for and painting isn't/aren't legal.
Now you have to spend more money to get the "correct" ball(s).

Left Hand of the Pheonix wrote:
Having used the new taurox properly, and the scions, the tank is ridiculously deadly, and with the gatling cannon can rip apart other units really quickly.

About that throne of skulls thing, well lets think about this. This game is not run by theorycrafters, where you look at the odds and the models and work out what should win. in that case a grey-knight paladin would never lose a fight to an nid gaunt, but they can. This game is 99% luck, 1% skill. We use DICE, you know cubes with little dots on that are random, hence why riptides could kill daemon princes or 'fexs in combat. As they say in football, when an underdog beats a big team, the ball is round.

Yeah, coz when the Guardsman with a powerfist brings down a Hive Tyrant that clearly means the powerfist is worth the same as it is in the hands of a Space Marine.

Wait, no it doesn't.

Game balance can't be based off what could occasionally sometimes happen, it is based off what is most likely to happen, what happens if things go worse than planned, what happens if things go better than planned (and how frequently things go better/worse) and how well the unit fits in to the rest of its army. You can get a long way to figuring that out based off previous experience, math, etc, and then tweak it with many many games of play testing (not just 1 or 2 games where someone decided to charge something they shouldn't and got lucky and won).

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Game balance can't be based off what could occasionally sometimes happen, it is based off what is most likely to happen, what happens if things go worse than planned, what happens if things go better than planned (and how frequently things go better/worse) and how well the unit fits in to the rest of its army.

Not according to Games Workshop.

How exactly do folks define game balance anyway?