They put those ork units in the FWFAQ but they are NOT worth it.
They are really, really overpriced. To the point of even in a casual game you are screwing yourself using one.
jseverin wrote: Playing league games at my LFGS, and bringing a kan wall. Index allowed, so taking a few with KMB's. 12 kans, Bike Mek with KFF, Wartrike with Surly like a Squiggoth. Not meta by any means, but hoping the KFF and fearless keep them around a little longer. Got a Meka-dread with KFF to hopefully draw fire and help shield as well.
Wondering if I should take the toughness 7 wartrike for survivability or the buzzbomb :/.
If you can, add a couple of Dreadz. They're more of a threat (especially if you can manage to get them in charging range), so they'll draw a lot of fire that would have been meant for the Kanz. As for the Trike: you're better off with Supa Cybork than the +1 Toughness, if you want survivability. And if you're close enough to throw the Buzzbomb, you're close enough to hit with all of his guns, which is a much better option.
The Trike also has a 5++ on it, and you already get a 6+++ from Snakebites, so a little better I think. Also, can't throw a Buzzbomb (a grenade) and shoot :(. But it's a league, so I can try both different games . Trike means I have the kult of speed strats as well, so can double move. I'll see if I can fit dreads in my other detachment, though it's a relic sag, some boyz, weirdboy, boss, and a mekadread right now.
For the record, i would throw a buzzbomb over shoot the trikes weapons any day.
It has possibly the worst weapon loadout for its cost in the core codex. Even the Stompa can at least hit/kill something, that trike NEVER kills more than a random infantry for me in shooting.
Well, if you're in grenade range, you're in half-range of everything but the Killa Jet. That's 6 shots with your Twin Boomsticks, hitting on 4+ with S5. Another 3.5 with the Burna profile of the Jets, which automatically hit with S5, AP-1. And 1 S4 shot with your Snagga, that rerolls Wounds. Against T4 Infantry, you should kill at least a handful of them.
Buzzbomb will get you 10.5 autohits with S5 and AP-1, then another 7 autohits against a different unit.
Buzzbomb wins out, but it's also a once per battle item and requires that you got two infantry units placed closely enough together to make it work, whereas Supa Cybork lasts until the Trike finally goes down.
Will say that if you can find a bubble-wrapped character, a Buzzbomb would make for a very effective "snipe" on it.
Up to you which you prefer, but I generally go with more survivability in my Wartrike. Run him up to the front lines and let him draw aggro as the rest of my army pushes forward.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As an aside, I'd put Surly on an Index Mek, so he can go with your Kanz. Kind of a waste on your Trike, since he's so much faster than the things you'd want Surly for.
Vineheart01 wrote: They put those ork units in the FWFAQ but they are NOT worth it.
They are really, really overpriced. To the point of even in a casual game you are screwing yourself using one.
We must be the only faction with overpriced FW models
Oh no a lot of FW is overpriced.
Really the only thing that ISNT overpriced is the Leviathan and the recent releases. The rest are either salvagably priced (gargsquig for example) or just outright terrible for the cost.
FW's current rules werent intended to be permanent, but the guy writing them kinda died. I heard a rumor awhile ago they were starting back up to rewrite rules but i havnt heard anything since so take that rumor with a grain of salt.
Oh yeah spaced that one out. I actually want to get one of those at some point.
No idea which way i'd load it out though. Not that im gonna get one any time soon so lot of time to think about it and if any changes occur.
Interesting thing I hadn't seen mentioned before - using the buzzbomm to snipe characters.
We're sorely lacking in units which can put hits on shielded characters - my best option thus far has been charging with anything that puts mortal wounds when you do so.
Has anyone used the Buzzbomm for sniping before?
Wondering about tellyporting in a transport with a cheap character with the buzzbomm inside (perhaps a morkanaught).
Haven't got the 'dex to hand, but is it feasible (with the extra gubbins strat) to give the buzzbomm to a runtherd or a mekboy? could be a cheap suicide unit. And if you don't want to use the tellyporta for anything else (and have CP spare) you could use a trukk with a mekboy in it, and watch as the opponent either ignores it or puts too much into killing it.
Well, I brought it up like 5 posts above this one, but it's really not a good idea for a number of reasons.
1) You gotta take Snakebitez, which (in my opinion) is the least competitive Kultur we got. A Snakebite Battalion might be cheap enough, however, if you have nothing better to spend the points on.
2) you gotta get to 6" away from your opponent. That means you won't be sniping anything until at least Turn 2, unless your opponent is bringing the character you want to kill to you.
3) it's one time use, so if you whiff the hits, or just fail to kill the character, you don't get a second chance to try again. And a fair number of characters will be able to tank the Buzzbomb anyway.
Honestly, you have better options for your Relic and 1 CP than the Buzzbomb. Like the SSAG, Supa Cybork, Killa Klaw, etc. Even if you're looking to snipe, you'd be better off using an SAG with Deathskullz trait.
flandarz wrote: Well, I brought it up like 5 posts above this one
Sorry, should have clarified, that was what made me wonder if it was viable. I'd not heard anyone mention it before, wondered if it was an old discussion or an untapped taktik.
Agree with Flandarz here. The average damage of 3.5 done to a space marine character or eldar psyker with 4++ are not impressive, considering you are trowing away a relic and a character.
If you have character within 6", might as well be a warboss with klaw.
Jidmah wrote: Agree with Flandarz here. The average damage of 3.5 done to a space marine character or eldar psyker with 4++ are not impressive, considering you are trowing away a relic and a character.
If you have character within 6", might as well be a warboss with klaw.
Jid and I agree, be afraid. Generally speaking, on those rare occasions when Jid and I agree, it usually means either we are so far off base that we should be institutionalized OR it means its spot on
Yeah there was competive tournament here on weekend as well. 24 players, 3 ih, all in top 4. Only ultramarines prevented top3 for all with 2nd place. Not looking good.
Sole ork player was way down. Necron list ended 5th crushing chaos(also way down), being annihilated by ih and then vaporising orks.
edit: 3 iron hand players scored combined 7 20-0 wins. Only reason no more was that 2 of them fought 11-9 between them on final round...
I'm taking pause from competive tournaments before they fix marine supplements. Good thing there are casual tournaments here where players self policy nicely.
Aaaaaaaaand GW fethed up again. Beating Marines is the new game, both IH and Ultramarines seem to be dominating tournaments.
Yeeeep. The writing has been on the wall for a while on this one for me. People on the playtesting team have literally said things like; "is it such a bad thing if Space Marines are OP? They are the protagonists." Also unless things are really broken we won't see any changes in CA this year. Hopefully every other faction gets a buff in CA and SM don't, or SM get a nerf.
IH are our new lords and masters.
So, how do we beat them but still have a list that can function against other lists? Are Traktor Cannons about to make a comeback? Badmoonz Tankbustas?
Aaaaaaaaand GW fethed up again. Beating Marines is the new game, both IH and Ultramarines seem to be dominating tournaments.
Yeeeep. The writing has been on the wall for a while on this one for me. People on the playtesting team have literally said things like; "is it such a bad thing if Space Marines are OP? They are the protagonists." Also unless things are really broken we won't see any changes in CA this year. Hopefully every other faction gets a buff in CA and SM don't, or SM get a nerf.
IH are our new lords and masters.
So, how do we beat them but still have a list that can function against other lists? Are Traktor Cannons about to make a comeback? Badmoonz Tankbustas?
We don't see changes to SM in CA anyway. The book is already written. There would not be time to fix anything.
Unless they nerf them in the 2 week faq then either spring faq or emergency out of order errata(which gw have yet to do I think).
And yes it's bad thing if anybody is op. Did playtesters really say so?
Bad moon tank bustas firing twice don't QUITE average IH executioner averaging bit over 14 wounds. But at least you could get 1 dealt with. Also 3 invictors seems to be very likely to be coming up.
Aaaaaaaaand GW fethed up again. Beating Marines is the new game, both IH and Ultramarines seem to be dominating tournaments.
Japp, they just fethed up the game again ✌️
I think Steven's list is gonna be ever more relevant. Or Nick's . Flood the board with boyz or grots, play the mission and hope for the best. But yeah, the people play testing deserve to be bludgeoned after every match untill they fix this gak
So with the create your own approach expanding to include craftworld attributes and kabal obsessions, it seems likely that we would get a custom kulture option. Anyone up for wild speculation on what our choices might be for a custom kulture?
Kustom kulture really doesn't make much sense for orks though, as the clans are pretty much set in stone. There are no successor clans or similar, like there is for Craftworlds or Chapters.
It would make much more sense to have additional traits for splinter groups like Speed Freeks, The Great Waaagh! or Rebel Grots.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
tneva82 wrote: We don't see changes to SM in CA anyway. The book is already written. There would not be time to fix anything.
Unless they nerf them in the 2 week faq then either spring faq or emergency out of order errata(which gw have yet to do I think).
They are in the same spot we were last year though - Ork codex got released and then the entire game but orks got a point drop. It might not fix them, but it might slightly mitigate some impact.
Jidmah wrote: Kustom kulture really doesn't make much sense for orks though, as the clans are pretty much set in stone. There are no successor clans or similar, like there is for Craftworlds or Chapters.
It would make much more sense to have additional traits for splinter groups like Speed Freeks, The Great Waaagh! or Rebel Grots.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
tneva82 wrote: We don't see changes to SM in CA anyway. The book is already written. There would not be time to fix anything.
Unless they nerf them in the 2 week faq then either spring faq or emergency out of order errata(which gw have yet to do I think).
They are in the same spot we were last year though - Ork codex got released and then the entire game but orks got a point drop. It might not fix them, but it might slightly mitigate some impact.
Gonna agree with Jidmah here, at most we might see some revision to the existing klan kulturs, but its likely more Tribal Kulturs where its a tribe/WAAAGH!/warband mixed with different klans. That or fringe stuff as mentioned like Speed Freeks.
An Actual Englishman wrote: So, how do we beat them but still have a list that can function against other lists? Are Traktor Cannons about to make a comeback? Badmoonz Tankbustas?
Invictors and Stormhawks can be shredded by tank bustas, smashas and lootas. But I really don't know how and ork player is supposed to handle three 5++/6+++/Ironstone Repulsor Executioners and/or Leviathans when the scout wall keeps you inside your deployment zone and denies all deep strikes. You can't even tripple gorkanaut that.
They must reduce that dude's Aura and fix his cost of at least 40 points. Double the price of some strat, than we are talking. The immortal Leviathan MUST be fixed asap. For the rest, I guess is all about screening and focusing gunz and SAG on aggressors and HB. No idea what else to do.
***OBS!!!*** Scout warsuits are NOT dreadnought. Do not get fooled . I lost a tournament bc of that BS... Repeat , they are NOT dreadnought***
The leviathan was a problem even before all this stuff popped up. I know of several marine players that even felt like it was over the top.
It simply fires too many powerful shots for its cost. 20 AP2 autocannons with marine shenanigans pretty much means guaranteed 20 hits, maaaybe 1 miss, and most of them wounding. It wasnt THAT big a problem before because leviathans were tanky but not unkillable. Now theyre unkillable for the same price.
GJGW.
Kustom kulture really doesn't make much sense for orks though, as the clans are pretty much set in stone. There are no successor clans or similar, like there is for Craftworlds or Chapters.
It would make much more sense to have additional traits for splinter groups like Speed Freeks, The Great Waaagh! or Rebel Grots.
I think I remember reading in the fluff that there are other Klanz but they are so small that they never really get noticed.
Regardless, with SM's having to suffer a full year of not being the most OP faction in the game we all knew it was coming, but with sisters coming out soon and how bad most of the ork codex is compared to the current meta, I HOPE, but don't expect, a large points change for orkz. Add into the equation the fact that competitive orkz are probably the hardest hit by the removal of index options from competitive play and you realize we will need a HEAVY buff in order to continue to be competitive at all.
An Actual Englishman wrote: So, how do we beat them but still have a list that can function against other lists? Are Traktor Cannons about to make a comeback? Badmoonz Tankbustas?
Invictors and Stormhawks can be shredded by tank bustas, smashas and lootas. But I really don't know how and ork player is supposed to handle three 5++/6+++/Ironstone Repulsor Executioners and/or Leviathans when the scout wall keeps you inside your deployment zone and denies all deep strikes. You can't even tripple gorkanaut that.
Not really with lootas. -1 damage makes lootas rather inefficient vs ih vehicles
An Actual Englishman wrote: So, how do we beat them but still have a list that can function against other lists? Are Traktor Cannons about to make a comeback? Badmoonz Tankbustas?
Invictors and Stormhawks can be shredded by tank bustas, smashas and lootas. But I really don't know how and ork player is supposed to handle three 5++/6+++/Ironstone Repulsor Executioners and/or Leviathans when the scout wall keeps you inside your deployment zone and denies all deep strikes. You can't even tripple gorkanaut that.
Not really with lootas. -1 damage makes lootas rather inefficient vs ih vehicles
The -1 damage is a 3" aura that comes from a relic and thus is very unlikely to affect infiltrating units or fliers. It's mostly used to protect a parking lot somewhere, usually leviathans and repulsor executioners.
Kustom kulture really doesn't make much sense for orks though, as the clans are pretty much set in stone. There are no successor clans or similar, like there is for Craftworlds or Chapters.
It would make much more sense to have additional traits for splinter groups like Speed Freeks, The Great Waaagh! or Rebel Grots.
I think I remember reading in the fluff that there are other Klanz but they are so small that they never really get noticed.
Regardless, with SM's having to suffer a full year of not being the most OP faction in the game we all knew it was coming, but with sisters coming out soon and how bad most of the ork codex is compared to the current meta, I HOPE, but don't expect, a large points change for orkz. Add into the equation the fact that competitive orkz are probably the hardest hit by the removal of index options from competitive play and you realize we will need a HEAVY buff in order to continue to be competitive at all.
Maybe calling them custom kultures was a poor choice. I think of it like this, all klans have meks, but maybe you have a badmoon klan with a high proportion of meks. With custom warband creation options you could select traits that fit that narrative/warband design.
Another example could be the warbands from Vigilus (as I remember) where you have a few different deathskull themed groups, but some focus on a particular thing (stompa mobs, dreads, battlewagons, etc.)
Basically I think that if they are going the route of custom traits, that they will find some kind of fluffy justification for orks.
Jidmah wrote: Kustom kulture really doesn't make much sense for orks though, as the clans are pretty much set in stone. There are no successor clans or similar, like there is for Craftworlds or Chapters.
It would make much more sense to have additional traits for splinter groups like Speed Freeks, The Great Waaagh! or Rebel Grots.
I didn't know there were successor craftworlds, in fact I think they're pretty set in stone like our klans.
Though I agree there's many ways GW can skin this particular cat. Grot rebels would be fun, and speed freeks.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I can all but guarantee there'll be these same rules for Orks and that they'll be equally fluffy and useful as what were seeing now for Craftworlds. I love them to be fair.
The idea of perfectly representing my clan with kustom traits is too cool. Who knows, Trukk Boyz might become more viable!
An Actual Englishman wrote: I didn't know there were successor craftworlds, in fact I think they're pretty set in stone like our klans.
Eh, kind of. There aren't any new one popping up (because Eldar are dying, not flourishing), but right now you only got rules for the biggest of them. Many smaller ones are somehow related to the big ones.
Most of them were just alternate paint schemes on the back of eldar boxes though.
I can all but guarantee there'll be these same rules for Orks and that they'll be equally fluffy and useful as what were seeing now for Craftworlds. I love them to be fair.
The idea of perfectly representing my clan with kustom traits is too cool. Who knows, Trukk Boyz might become more viable!
From what I understand, they are customizing warhosts, not craftworlds. You could just have customized Waaagh!'s just the same, overriding whatever clans are participating.
An Actual Englishman wrote: I didn't know there were successor craftworlds, in fact I think they're pretty set in stone like our klans.
Eh, kind of. There aren't any new one popping up (because Eldar are dying, not flourishing), but right now you only got rules for the biggest of them. Many smaller ones are somehow related to the big ones.
Most of them were just alternate paint schemes on the back of eldar boxes though.
I can all but guarantee there'll be these same rules for Orks and that they'll be equally fluffy and useful as what were seeing now for Craftworlds. I love them to be fair.
The idea of perfectly representing my clan with kustom traits is too cool. Who knows, Trukk Boyz might become more viable!
From what I understand, they are customizing warhosts, not craftworlds. You could just have customized Waaagh!'s just the same, overriding whatever clans are participating.
Ehh I never knew there were so many Craftworlds! Madness.
Not a bad idea re the customised WAAAAGGGGHHH!!!s instead. Makes a lot of sense.
An Actual Englishman wrote: I didn't know there were successor craftworlds, in fact I think they're pretty set in stone like our klans.
Eh, kind of. There aren't any new one popping up (because Eldar are dying, not flourishing), but right now you only got rules for the biggest of them. Many smaller ones are somehow related to the big ones.
Most of them were just alternate paint schemes on the back of eldar boxes though.
I can all but guarantee there'll be these same rules for Orks and that they'll be equally fluffy and useful as what were seeing now for Craftworlds. I love them to be fair.
The idea of perfectly representing my clan with kustom traits is too cool. Who knows, Trukk Boyz might become more viable!
From what I understand, they are customizing warhosts, not craftworlds. You could just have customized Waaagh!'s just the same, overriding whatever clans are participating.
Ehh I never knew there were so many Craftworlds! Madness.
Not a bad idea re the customised WAAAAGGGGHHH!!!s instead. Makes a lot of sense.
my ork army (mainly unchanged for like 15 years) suddenly starting to feel almost competitive! I usually bring them out for a fun game but thinking of pitting them vs my mate's harder lists.
Problem is now i'm tempted to just remove units that are not the most efficient and spam more of the same e.g. consider this is my list:
I'm thinking the sluggs need to be 30. Ditch the nobs and storm boyz and take more lootas and another weirdboy etc...
Thinking the army will end up feeling very generic and end up not having that funness about it (but maybe vs competitive stuff ye gotta bite that bullet and have a secondary list). Ugh torn, i'm thinking its a pretty hard list as it stands?
If the main Iron Hands defensive measure is a relic, perhaps the best counter would be a SSAG mek with opportunist?
You can use more dakka to trigger dakkax3 on 5's and 6's to essentially ignore moving (auto-hits on 5+, regardless of modifiers, IIRC) and then pop shoot twice (as he'll die shortly after this turn, if he even gets it) to kill the relic holder, and then chip some wounds off the next biggest target (or finish the relic holder off if you roll badly).
I've not played against them and don't know all their rules so there's some supposition going on here.
some bloke wrote: If the main Iron Hands defensive measure is a relic, perhaps the best counter would be a SSAG mek with opportunist?
You can use more dakka to trigger dakkax3 on 5's and 6's to essentially ignore moving (auto-hits on 5+, regardless of modifiers, IIRC) and then pop shoot twice (as he'll die shortly after this turn, if he even gets it) to kill the relic holder, and then chip some wounds off the next biggest target (or finish the relic holder off if you roll badly).
I've not played against them and don't know all their rules so there's some supposition going on here.
The main issue that hinders opportunist from being a useful trait is that it only works within 18 inches. The SSAG wants to sit back, so the only way I can see you getting it into range of a character like that is da jumping it up and unloading. Which basically makes a very good backfield support gun into a suicide unit. And that's if you can even jump him into range. That iron hands character is likely going to be burried in a thicket of vehicles, and with space marine anti-deepstrike shenanagins and scouts to hem you in and limit deployment, I seriously doubt your chances of being able to teleport the SSAG into range.
Cheapest character possible is still the SAG, for Opportunist at least. No other gun we have is even remotely viable for sniping, because of Ork BS. Only character with a gun that is even close to as viable is Badrukk, and he can't take Opportunist.
Those are decent options, but talking about the IH Dread character specifically, we really don't have great options. Even the SSAG is only doing like 1 Wound on average against the thing. Best option I can think of is to use Lootas, the SSAG, and Smashas to make a hole for your Boyz to Da Jump in and tie the Dread Ball in CC. You can't really hope to kill the thing, so you're better off just keeping it stuck somewhere while you make VP other way. But even that's tough, since the thing is cheap as chips (leaving plenty of points for the rest of the army).
IH have multiple layers - the trait provides FNP and deadly overwatch, the forgefather has 5++ and insane repairs, the iron stone character reduces damage and the vehicles have native high amount of 3+ T8 wounds. On top of that, scouting units and flyers prevent you from moving up the board and block deep strikes. Even if you manage to kill the ironstone in a suicide attack, their castle is by no means easy to kill, plus they still have smash captains to intercept your klaw boss or shooty mek.
Just a random thought to combat players castling up:
An army list built around using 2-3 units of 30 grots, 2-3 weirdboys with da jump, and the rest of the army being characters (supreme command?)
Turn 1, put a ring of grots around the castle, with 2-3 layers (depending on how many jump) so no hole can be made without killing most of each squad. Try to keep far enough away to make charges difficult for those at the back (so they pull the units out of the buff bubble).
Then roll around with your characters which cannot be targeted by said castle (wartrikes will be good) and kill what's outside his bubble, then take objectives.
some bloke wrote: Just a random thought to combat players castling up:
An army list built around using 2-3 units of 30 grots, 2-3 weirdboys with da jump, and the rest of the army being characters (supreme command?)
Turn 1, put a ring of grots around the castle, with 2-3 layers (depending on how many jump) so no hole can be made without killing most of each squad. Try to keep far enough away to make charges difficult for those at the back (so they pull the units out of the buff bubble).
Then roll around with your characters which cannot be targeted by said castle (wartrikes will be good) and kill what's outside his bubble, then take objectives.
Gretchin have T2, Sv6+, and Ld4. Which, in real basic terms, means they're REAL easy to get rid of. For example:
20 BS4+ shots, with S4, AP-1, and D1 will wipe 8 Gretchin on average, and you'll be losing another 1d6+4 from Morale, so an average of 15.5 Gretchin. That's half the 30 strong mob with barely any effort put in. You're better off using Boyz, who, in addition to having T4 and Mob Rule, can benefit from Kultur and Stratagems. These can make your charges easier, or give them an Invuln or FnP, or allow you to bring them back from the brink.
With all the talk about rest of army being character I'll be stunned if those characters don't include at least one warboss making morale casualties to d3 from warboss smashign heads.
Oh and as for T4...point to point grots are actually tougher against about anything but S2 weapons. How many S2 weapons you are facing?
If his goal for the grots is just sacrificial wall then they do more efficiently than boyz. Boyz are if you want to actually kill something. In terms of survivability more than double the wounds count for more than T4 vs T2 and morale is not that big issue with warboss.
He was specifically talking about Jumping the Gretchin up. If you're Jumping Gretchin, you ain't Jumping a Warboss. Which is why Morale plays a factor in how tough they are.
the specific goal is to put cheap chaff around the clustered army huddling around their warlord, and then use purely characters (who now are untargetable by their ultra-buffed triple-concentrated army) to control the board, take out any outlying units, and ultimately take all the objectives. The buff-city castle would be reduced to shooting at the gretchin - the biggest waste of a buffed castle imaginable. Meanwhile you can pour firepower into them from our HQ's and Meks (not so fussed about runtherds, though they may help with the grots).
You could even have 2 waves of grots to jump in, if facing a shooting ball, you can sacrifice a unit or 2 of grots a turn to keep your pure-character army alive and shooting.
characters we have which can actually do some damage (I'm thinking deffskulls for the rerolls) in rule of 3:
SSAG Mek SAG Mek x 2 KMB Mek x 3 Badrukk Wartrike (mainly for mobility) x 3 Weirdboy x 3 (for psychic shooting)
Not sure if I've missed any characters, tellyport blasta megamek is a bit meh. KFF Mek could help maintain the grot wall a bit.
It's basically a variation of the "just ignore the knight" approach, but using grots to hem in the doom-bubble and render it practically worthless - Vs grots, anything higher than S4 or better than AP-1 is wasted. especially if it's buffed out the wazoo.
If they move forwards, you jump the second wave behind them and chase them, staying closer to them than they are to your characters.
Smartest move is to refrain form playing against IHs for now, wait for CA and PA to make us capable of defeating IHs. They are just a couple of months away.
Otherwise there is always luck, because a lucky SAG roll will hurt anything, even an IH repulsor buffed up to withstand hellish firepower.
11 on the strengh, 11 on the number of shots, dakka dakka. Boom goes the repulsor.
The flesh is weak ?
Well Iron ain't so tough now bro
Vineheart01 wrote: Beauty bout rolling that with the SAG is mortal wounds is not damage profile, so he cant reduce it.
Ooh, nail on the head right here.
What do we got that puts out MW's in addition?
SAG rolling 11+
Megatrakk Scrapjets kick out mortal wounds on the charge
Squiggoths as well
Isn't there a relic/stratagem that lets the warlord do it when they charge?
Kill Tanks do on the charge
And the important bit - if the positioning is right, you can charge something else, not take the leviathans overwatch, move within 1" and give him the MW. Then pile in away from him (getting him out of combat so he can't hit you) and then attack the other unit.
unfortunately orks dont have many ways to do mortal wounds.
SAG S11+ does D3 per hit (not wound, hit) Weirdboys can Smite of course Scrapjet/Boostablasta have 4+ on charge deal D3 mortals (boosta sucks balls at melee and scrapjet is so-so though) Ramming Speed does D3 on a 2+ for a vehicle (i use this more to guarantee the charge than that damage) Wartrike Snaggaklaw stratagem does D3 mortals when he pulls out of melee. I havnt even had a chance to do this let alone remembered to do it since i have to fall back for it to trigger Babysquig/Killtank does it but i dont know off hand how much (on charge) Gargsquig does D6 on a 2+ after charging to EVERYTHING he charged, not just 1 unit like the other guys. Lifta Droppa does mortal wounds only, but its also laughably overpriced and unreliable as gak lol.... Relic Big Choppa does 2 mortals instead of damage on a wound of 6+ I think the damage the Redder Armor or whatever the Evil Sunz relic was called did mortals, but he has to be in a transport in close proximity. I.e. in ripe "KILL IT NOW" range
Thats...really it. I wish basic Trukks had the Spike Ram ability since..yaknow..they kinda have a spike ram modeled on them? would make trukk spam actually a threat since they could easily dish out a handful of mortals. Orks can generally cause a random mortal wound pretty commonly since we have several on the charge mortals, but most of the units that can do it really do NOT want to be in melee and we have to suffer overwatch to get it off, usually offsetting any benefit we just got.
Also no that example you said about the leviathan wouldnt work. You cannot end your charge within 1" of something you did not charge, and the "On the Charge" mortal wound effects happen when you successfully charge, not start combat. It happens immediately before you select another unit to charge, so theres no chance to pile in. That would work to just tie the guy up since iirc he cant fall back and shoot unless hes Ultrasmurfs.
Greenskins, please advise the army for 500 and 750 points against SM. There is only information that RG Shrike will be with his 12 attack from claws. For beginner, with a “start collection” and a couple of boxes, I have to argue for my green beliefs. As I understand it, I need to give preference to Deffskulls or SB in order to protect myself from the doctrine of bolters (-1 AP). Also I will not be able to use deepstrike effectively. Don’t know what to do...
some bloke wrote: Just a random thought to combat players castling up:
An army list built around using 2-3 units of 30 grots, 2-3 weirdboys with da jump, and the rest of the army being characters (supreme command?)
Turn 1, put a ring of grots around the castle, with 2-3 layers (depending on how many jump) so no hole can be made without killing most of each squad. Try to keep far enough away to make charges difficult for those at the back (so they pull the units out of the buff bubble).
Then roll around with your characters which cannot be targeted by said castle (wartrikes will be good) and kill what's outside his bubble, then take objectives.
Would this work?
Keep in mind a lot of Marine lists are running 2-3 Eliminator squads since they're so cheap. They can shoot your characters and they don't need LOS to do it.
That would work to just tie the guy up since iirc he cant fall back and shoot unless hes Ultrasmurfs.
He can be given warlord trait that allows him to consolidiaje 6" in any direction so if he has room to move he consolidiates out of combat, no need to fall back. Better than um as no -1 to hit
That would work to just tie the guy up since iirc he cant fall back and shoot unless hes Ultrasmurfs.
He can be given warlord trait that allows him to consolidiaje 6" in any direction so if he has room to move he consolidiates out of combat, no need to fall back. Better than um as no -1 to hit
A warlord trait that allows him to consolidate out of combat? that sounds like a rules flop not an intended functionality.
Dzeko wrote: Greenskins, please advise the army for 500 and 750 points against SM. There is only information that RG Shrike will be with his 12 attack from claws. For beginner, with a “start collection” and a couple of boxes, I have to argue for my green beliefs. As I understand it, I need to give preference to Deffskulls or SB in order to protect myself from the doctrine of bolters (-1 AP). Also I will not be able to use deepstrike effectively. Don’t know what to do...
We need to know what else you have to give you decent advice, what other boxes did you buy?
That would work to just tie the guy up since iirc he cant fall back and shoot unless hes Ultrasmurfs.
He can be given warlord trait that allows him to consolidiaje 6" in any direction so if he has room to move he consolidiates out of combat, no need to fall back. Better than um as no -1 to hit
A warlord trait that allows him to consolidate out of combat? that sounds like a rules flop not an intended functionality.
It's basically same rule that saim hann can have. Except at least here we are talking about non-flying model that doesn't do some 20" odd move like those eldar autarchs can do so you have more tools to stop it! Eldar one can literally charge, attack and before you get to hit end up 20"+ away from you. This one you can prevent by ensuring there's no base wide open route. Makes it harder but not impossible to keep him in combat. Unlike those eldars.
Mind you it's not certain he will have it(it costs him CP for one, there could be even better WT for leviathan or maybe he wants to have some bike/jump pack beatstick character to do the charge, attack, retreat into safety trick saim hann does. But keep in mind possibility and check from opponent does he have that if you plan to charge into combat.
(also keep in mind you will be likely losing 7-10 models IF you charge outside 8" range. If closer than that the two heavy flamers will add to the death toll...(
Dzeko wrote: Greenskins, please advise the army for 500 and 750 points against SM. There is only information that RG Shrike will be with his 12 attack from claws. For beginner, with a “start collection” and a couple of boxes, I have to argue for my green beliefs. As I understand it, I need to give preference to Deffskulls or SB in order to protect myself from the doctrine of bolters (-1 AP). Also I will not be able to use deepstrike effectively. Don’t know what to do...
We need to know what else you have to give you decent advice, what other boxes did you buy?
Well first things first box of boyz and grots to give you unit of 30 boyz(boyz need numbers) and 2x10 for legal battallion would be good start.
Mek with shock attack gun would be also good as the relic SAG is one of the competive things you have. Albeit in this small game it will likely come down to how well it performs.
If he has the phobos guys that push you out of 12" yeah you have to be out in the shooting minimum 1 turn so that's going to hurt. But foot slogging it over will expose yourself to even more fire so...Use the weirdboy to jump them and then hope you survive fire. Though maybe not on T1. Try to soften them with the shooting.
Though with shrike? Maybe they don't shoot at you but instead charge you. In which case not much you can do but to absorb the attack and counter charge. He shouldn't have that 12" pusher in range if he goes for T1 charge so if that's his plan put the boyz into tellyporta, give him T1 and when he charges you lose grots(make damned sure he can't get into shock attack gun mek b2b) and then counter charge. It's literally impossible to deploy far enough raven guard doesn't reach you if they want to reach you.
Dzeko wrote: Greenskins, please advise the army for 500 and 750 points against SM. There is only information that RG Shrike will be with his 12 attack from claws. For beginner, with a “start collection” and a couple of boxes, I have to argue for my green beliefs. As I understand it, I need to give preference to Deffskulls or SB in order to protect myself from the doctrine of bolters (-1 AP). Also I will not be able to use deepstrike effectively. Don’t know what to do...
We need to know what else you have to give you decent advice, what other boxes did you buy?
It isn't the most competitive list in the world but it should do okay at 500 points. Depending on the mission I would probably push up the board with one group of boys, the warboss, and the painboy. I'd Da Jump the other squad up to try and get tie up the enemies backline. I'd probably try and hide the gretchin and try to use them to hold an objective. The Deff Dred can either be teleported in to try and make a charge or you can place him on the board and have him distract the enemy from your other units.
Someone else will have to recommend a clan to you, I'm a masochist who plays Goffs since that is how my boys are painted.
Vineheart01 wrote: unfortunately orks dont have many ways to do mortal wounds.
SAG S11+ does D3 per hit (not wound, hit)
Weirdboys can Smite of course
Scrapjet/Boostablasta have 4+ on charge deal D3 mortals (boosta sucks balls at melee and scrapjet is so-so though)
Ramming Speed does D3 on a 2+ for a vehicle (i use this more to guarantee the charge than that damage)
Wartrike Snaggaklaw stratagem does D3 mortals when he pulls out of melee. I havnt even had a chance to do this let alone remembered to do it since i have to fall back for it to trigger
Babysquig/Killtank does it but i dont know off hand how much (on charge)
Gargsquig does D6 on a 2+ after charging to EVERYTHING he charged, not just 1 unit like the other guys.
Lifta Droppa does mortal wounds only, but its also laughably overpriced and unreliable as gak lol....
Relic Big Choppa does 2 mortals instead of damage on a wound of 6+
I think the damage the Redder Armor or whatever the Evil Sunz relic was called did mortals, but he has to be in a transport in close proximity. I.e. in ripe "KILL IT NOW" range
Thats...really it. I wish basic Trukks had the Spike Ram ability since..yaknow..they kinda have a spike ram modeled on them? would make trukk spam actually a threat since they could easily dish out a handful of mortals.
Orks can generally cause a random mortal wound pretty commonly since we have several on the charge mortals, but most of the units that can do it really do NOT want to be in melee and we have to suffer overwatch to get it off, usually offsetting any benefit we just got.
Also no that example you said about the leviathan wouldnt work. You cannot end your charge within 1" of something you did not charge, and the "On the Charge" mortal wound effects happen when you successfully charge, not start combat. It happens immediately before you select another unit to charge, so theres no chance to pile in.
That would work to just tie the guy up since iirc he cant fall back and shoot unless hes Ultrasmurfs.
You also forgot about Da Krunch, but I can understand why. Unless you're playing against Orkz, how often are you gonna find a 30 strong unit to maximize damage against? In this meta, you have trouble even finding the 12 needed to match Smite damage.
I WANT to like Da Krunch. But it's so unreliable, even if you have the potential to wipe entire Infantry units with it.
Mines would actually be good imo if they were akin to the Sporocysts in the sense that they just keep plopping mines everywhere. Cant move of course because theyre mines not gaseous orb things, but if they could put multiple mines even just 1 a turn i think i'd like them more than 1 a game...
Da Krunch is a spell i tried to get to work for so long but youre right, who uses numbers? Ork boyz are about it, to a lesser degree tyranids and guardsmen but still nowhere near as numerous. Everyone else wants minimum squads, which is usually 5.
Oh and technically i forgot the Shokkjump. Its 2 KMB shots have mortal wound on a wound of 6+. Which i think ive gotten once lol....
I think orks have the most instances of mortal wounds but absolutely none of them are in our control except the charge ones, which defeat the point of bringing up this convo as Leviathans love overwatch. I imagine the very few harliquin jetbikers, whatever theyre called, are loving this new vehicle heavy marine meta. Haywire doesnt do damage, it does mortals and a lot of it.
Dzeko wrote: Greenskins, please advise the army for 500 and 750 points against SM. There is only information that RG Shrike will be with his 12 attack from claws. For beginner, with a “start collection” and a couple of boxes, I have to argue for my green beliefs. As I understand it, I need to give preference to Deffskulls or SB in order to protect myself from the doctrine of bolters (-1 AP). Also I will not be able to use deepstrike effectively. Don’t know what to do...
We need to know what else you have to give you decent advice, what other boxes did you buy?
It isn't the most competitive list in the world but it should do okay at 500 points. Depending on the mission I would probably push up the board with one group of boys, the warboss, and the painboy. I'd Da Jump the other squad up to try and get tie up the enemies backline. I'd probably try and hide the gretchin and try to use them to hold an objective. The Deff Dred can either be teleported in to try and make a charge or you can place him on the board and have him distract the enemy from your other units.
Someone else will have to recommend a clan to you, I'm a masochist who plays Goffs since that is how my boys are painted.
Snakebites are worth considering - 6+++ Save and the grits ignore Leadership with the Warboss
I have played Primaris RG more than once, they tended to castle up and rely on shooting buffs to kill Orks, then mop up with Shrike etc. Their -1 to hit over 12” makes shooting problematic, use the Dakka3 Strategem to give 5+6 auto hit. They ran minimum sized units, so remember to multi charge, or he will pull back the charged unit and shoot with the others. 2 Wound profile makes them hard to kill, and they re slow to degrade because of this. Rokkit, Big Choppas and Smite are a way around this.
Good luck !
Vineheart01 wrote: I think orks have the most instances of mortal wounds but absolutely none of them are in our control except the charge ones, which defeat the point of bringing up this convo as Leviathans love overwatch.
Bear in mind that one does not have to charge the leviathan to put impact hits on him.
the rules put mortal wound on a unit within 1". true, you cannot attack the leviathan, and he can attack you, but you can charge the guy next to him and then inflict the MW onto him. It will only really be useful if he has a couple of wounds left and you have an almost dead ram-attacker, whilst he is next to someone crap at overwatch. But the overwatch can be avoided if you don't want to punch the leviathan when you get there.
Not good. So if you CAN surround it it's not going to clear unit of boyz in a hurry. It relies on the overwatch(that kills 7-10 ork boyz depending on does he use stratagem for 4+ overwatch or not. ) plus possible heavy flamers. After that it's nothing impressive. So if you can get full unit charging into it AND prevent moving out(if he has the warlord trait) you get some respite(depending on how much counter attack stuff he has nearby. Mind you even 2 minimum squad of primaris will be making quite a dent. 30 S4 attacks aint nothing to sniff at from 10 primaris marines).
tneva82 wrote: Not good. So if you CAN surround it it's not going to clear unit of boyz in a hurry. It relies on the overwatch(that kills 7-10 ork boyz depending on does he use stratagem for 4+ overwatch or not. ) plus possible heavy flamers. After that it's nothing impressive. So if you can get full unit charging into it AND prevent moving out(if he has the warlord trait) you get some respite(depending on how much counter attack stuff he has nearby. Mind you even 2 minimum squad of primaris will be making quite a dent. 30 S4 attacks aint nothing to sniff at from 10 primaris marines).
Ok, Just realised I've been talking out of my arse about moving within 1" without charging, it's not allowed in the rules. Sorry!
So the way to get this thing is to put 2 units at him (grots and boys, probably), grots take the overwatch, boys keep him pinned. If you get it right, you can even keep the boys safe using the grots.
1: move 1 grot within 1", then create a circle around him (as best you can), with space for the boys
2: charge the boys into the circle
3: close the circle with the grots consolidation
Result: Boys are now in CC with the leviathan, and the only way to get him out is to charge the grots, eat through the grots, then pile into the boys. if the leviathan attacks the boys, the grots will keep them safe from outside. If the leviathan attacks the grots, there will be more boys to try and kill him.
I feel this could be achieved with 30 grots and 20 boys, so 230pts. What does the leviathan cost?
New Ork Player lookin for nu crumpin tactics for Evil Sunz Only 'rmy !!! I like the idea of running 2 deff killa wartrikes with bikes and with deff koptas in the speed whaargh detachment down the flanks
Any other Evil Sunz combos or Ork combos would be great please!!!
some bloke wrote: So the way to get this thing is to put 2 units at him (grots and boys, probably), grots take the overwatch, boys keep him pinned. If you get it right, you can even keep the boys safe using the grots.
You need some 15+ grots to charge to do it safely though. 10 will die with fairly high chance even without 4+ overwatch stratagem. With that it's very, very unlikely they will make it.
1: move 1 grot within 1", then create a circle around him (as best you can), with space for the boys
2: charge the boys into the circle
3: close the circle with the grots consolidation
Ummm if grots didn't charge they can't move within 1". Ergo no consolidiation either. If they charged leviathan will shoot them.
There's no way you can prevent overwatch to boyz with grots WITHOUT exposing grots to overwatch first. Now if you have some 15+ grots that's fairly safe proposal(he will average 15 hits killing on 2+).
Also trick is getting close enough with those before being blasted to pieces by marine army with lotsa dakka. Also you will be counter charged and after grots have eaten overwatch they won't prevent charging into boyz all that well. But at least turn, 2 with luck, you get to be without 20 S7 -2 D2 shots hitting on 2+ with rerolls.
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Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote: Someone said it already. Chill and calm down until CA19 and the ork part of PsyAwa lands.
IH will be nerfed eventually. They came out too strong.
Hopefully CA fixes. Though unless they fix IH in the 2 week faq(has gw ever done balance change in 2 week FAQ?) first change will be in spring faq so over half a year...
Ork changes are hopes but then again seeing CA has also nerfed weak units it's not quaranteed. And indeed CA changes are rarely all that dramatic. Tiny changes and GK's have now been waiting for 2 CA for proper help and they still are uber complete bollock level junk.
The ultimate culprit is that these new things IH have work on a FW model that was already considered a bit overpowered. None of this would be overly broken on generic dreadnaughts or even a redemptor because they dont have the insane dakka or 4++.
Leviathans can be pretty mean in melee, but in 8th edition you never see them with a fist weapon because the autocannon thing is just too good. Stupid thing should not be firing 10 shots per arm and should not be ap2
Since the Leviathan is a FW model and had this issue for awhile, its possible CA will still take it down a peg or two, while leaving the marine codex rules and costs relatively left alone
Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote: Someone said it already. Chill and calm down until CA19 and the ork part of PsyAwa lands.
IH will be nerfed eventually. They came out too strong.
I think the taktiks I'm proposing are relevant to any too-'ard, shooty unit which cannot fly. if you can get 2 units into combat with it - preferably grots to eat the overwatch and then boys for their reasonably good survivability & damage output for their model count - then you can first create your safety bubble (with the grots in CC so they cannot be shot) and then charge the boys into it, then close the safety bubble with the boys inside.
Grots can't be shot, boys can't be charged, shooty-monster can't escape or deal much damage. Meaning either the enemy has to commit CC units to get them out, or accept that they've lost their shooting unit until one or the other wins.
it's now a case of working out how to get the positioning right. This could even be a viable use for a trukkboys mob (especially as people see them as practically useless - if the enemy has read anything on the internet, they'll ignore them).
I was expecting the grots to eat overwatch for the boys, and as long as there's enough to keep the enemy from walking through, there's still enough there. You might not need a 360° wall, you may only need one side to be shielded at first.
Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote: Someone said it already. Chill and calm down until CA19 and the ork part of PsyAwa lands.
IH will be nerfed eventually. They came out too strong.
It was me, and I stand by my (mek) gunz ! I have been playing since 4th, and I have known for some time now that it is sometimes better to sit out some of the worst "metas" and wait for better days
Curious79 wrote: New Ork Player lookin for nu crumpin tactics for Evil Sunz Only 'rmy !!! I like the idea of running 2 deff killa wartrikes with bikes and with deff koptas in the speed whaargh detachment down the flanks
Any other Evil Sunz combos or Ork combos would be great please!!!
Hi C,
Be wary of using outflanking on 4’ tables - weapon ranges are long enough to kill your koptas/bikes from the middle of the table.
Depending on your opponent, Nob bikers may be more durable, and have :more chance of doing their job.
Have only used the Deff Killa once,, and he died to DE poison :-( You may have better luck.
Curious79 wrote: New Ork Player lookin for nu crumpin tactics for Evil Sunz Only 'rmy !!! I like the idea of running 2 deff killa wartrikes with bikes and with deff koptas in the speed whaargh detachment down the flanks
Any other Evil Sunz combos or Ork combos would be great please!!!
Deffkillas biggest ability is for vehicles to charge after they have advanced - he makes it possible to get turn 1 charges out of a lot of things which otherwise were incapable of doing so.
IIRC it's not vehicles exclusively, so it will work on bikers as well. You could have some success by putting one deffkilla in a blob of bikes & koptas on each flank, and then try to squeeze past the main front of the enemy army by move-advance-shoot something else-charge along each flank, preferably into something a little isolated.
For deployment, your best bet is to get a few cheap grot units and deploy these first, centrally, to tempt the opponent into committing to a central deployment. Make it look like they are lining up to be grot shields, and you will be putting something behind them. Then commit to whichever flank you prefer with your real army. The grots can wander over to the objectives whilst your army is hurtling at the enemy.
If you're looking to pull off a risky advance-charge later in the game, be sure to do the advance roll before moving the wartrike - there's no point pulling him out of position and then finding you rolled a 1 on the other unit and aren't going to make that charge any more. Don't move the wartrike over and then see whether he's actually needed!
Don't expect wonders from the wartrike, it's moderate at shooting light infantry, and pretty decent in a scrap if the opponent isn't rocking multi-damage weapons. shoot the fighty stuff, fight the shooty stuff.
Wartrike is quite overcosted at 120 pts though. I see no reason why it should cost any more than 100 points. Even at 100 pts I would really think hard before taking one
addnid wrote: Wartrike is quite overcosted at 120 pts though. I see no reason why it should cost any more than 100 points. Even at 100 pts I would really think hard before taking one
It's down to how much you use him - same as a KFF. It's overcosted if you use it to get 1 vehicle across the board, but if you can get 3 bonebreakas full of hurt to slam into the enemy turn 1, and still be a big, tough, untargetable character who minces light units (EG devastators) and can move 14" & charge after advancing. He's a pretty beastly way of taking care of behind-the-lines squishy stuff which is shooting at you.
Oddly enough, he also works on deff dreads & gorkamorkanaughts. Getting a Gorkanaught to move, advance and then pop the 3D6" charge stratagem can be a surprising tactic which can throw off an enemies battle plan.
With the warbikers, can someone check if Grot Shields works on them? If so, jumping a unit of grots forward with a weirdboy and then lining the bikers up behind will create a close-range, repositionable firing line with grot shield protection. 10 bikers re expensive but get 60 S5 shots. pop shoot twice to kill a lot of stuff.
addnid wrote: Wartrike is quite overcosted at 120 pts though. I see no reason why it should cost any more than 100 points. Even at 100 pts I would really think hard before taking one
It's down to how much you use him - same as a KFF. It's overcosted if you use it to get 1 vehicle across the board, but if you can get 3 bonebreakas full of hurt to slam into the enemy turn 1, and still be a big, tough, untargetable character who minces light units (EG devastators) and can move 14" & charge after advancing. He's a pretty beastly way of taking care of behind-the-lines squishy stuff which is shooting at you.
Oddly enough, he also works on deff dreads & gorkamorkanaughts. Getting a Gorkanaught to move, advance and then pop the 3D6" charge stratagem can be a surprising tactic which can throw off an enemies battle plan.
As someone that has tried really hard to make the Wartrike work, trust me and addnid when we say that he is WAY overpriced. He just doesn't get his points back as he is far too flimsy. A 4+ save with no invuln is a joke. His only defence is character protection, that he effectively loses when he gets into optimal range. As to Devastators, he's never going to hit them (or any other "squishy", backfield heavy weapons unit) because they are always (and I mean always) in cover/on a building and he can't fly. Unless your opponent has forgot to bring screens, or you have a dedicated way to be rid of them, he's not very good at all. Also he doesn't have a real power claw and he doesn't have the morale mitigation of warbosses.
With the warbikers, can someone check if Grot Shields works on them? If so, jumping a unit of grots forward with a weirdboy and then lining the bikers up behind will create a close-range, repositionable firing line with grot shield protection. 10 bikers re expensive but get 60 S5 shots. pop shoot twice to kill a lot of stuff.
With the warbikers, can someone check if Grot Shields works on them? If so, jumping a unit of grots forward with a weirdboy and then lining the bikers up behind will create a close-range, repositionable firing line with grot shield protection. 10 bikers re expensive but get 60 S5 shots. pop shoot twice to kill a lot of stuff.
Grot shields only works on INFANTRY.
I suspected as much, didn't have my codex handy. Ah well, guess warbikers are still meh!
Ratius wrote: Quick question guys, if a grot unit is locked in combat can it be used as a grot shield (stratagem)?
Yeah they can be used for the stratagem. The stratagem doesn't ask for the gretchin to be eligible targets for shooting, they just need to be within 6" of your your infantry unit, closer to the attacking model, and be the same clan as your infantry unit.
An actual englishman is spot on regarding all the reasons wartrike is overcosted. I haven' t tried as hard with wartrike, and won't bother. Solid agruments !
Thing with enabling gorkanauts to advance and charge is the point cost of all of this: two gorks and one wartrike is nearly 750 points which are just not very durable. Not convinced. With Bonebreakas I dunno maybe it could work if Bonebreakas were cheaper too. I may bee influenced by the fact that ork players around all seem to think BBs are really bad... Perhaps i could try triple BB with wartrike before I completely drop wartrike as an option
As to shielding the wartrike, this is my wish:
Grots on bikes ! Grots on bikes to grot shield a wartrike ! Grot revolution !!
addnid wrote: An actual englishman is spot on regarding all the reasons wartrike is overcosted. I haven' t tried as hard with wartrike, and won't bother. Solid agruments !
Thing with enabling gorkanauts to advance and charge is the point cost of all of this: two gorks and one wartrike is nearly 750 points which are just not very durable. Not convinced. With Bonebreakas I dunno maybe it could work if Bonebreakas were cheaper too. I may bee influenced by the fact that ork players around all seem to think BBs are really bad... Perhaps i could try triple BB with wartrike before I completely drop wartrike as an option
As to shielding the wartrike, this is my wish:
Grots on bikes ! Grots on bikes to grot shield a wartrike ! Grot revolution !!
I wouldn't put 2 nauts anyway as only one can do the 3d6 charge. Without it advance and charge is 11+3d6 for the threat range so not even to deployment zone in many map's and that's assuming opponent puts as close as possible(not something you can count) and you are evil sun. With 3d6 charge it's at least 11+4d6 for 25" move so 26" threat range. Better so even if opponent deploys 3" back(still bit forward heavy deployment) it's just 1" more than average which with rerolls isn't THAT bad.
I would rather do gorkanaut+2 bonebreaka.
Not most competive options but outside hardcore enviroment there's worse ones. Not every game is cuththroat power to max game(luckily)
addnid wrote: An actual englishman is spot on regarding all the reasons wartrike is overcosted. I haven' t tried as hard with wartrike, and won't bother. Solid agruments !
Thing with enabling gorkanauts to advance and charge is the point cost of all of this: two gorks and one wartrike is nearly 750 points which are just not very durable. Not convinced. With Bonebreakas I dunno maybe it could work if Bonebreakas were cheaper too. I may bee influenced by the fact that ork players around all seem to think BBs are really bad... Perhaps i could try triple BB with wartrike before I completely drop wartrike as an option As to shielding the wartrike, this is my wish:
Grots on bikes ! Grots on bikes to grot shield a wartrike ! Grot revolution !!
I wouldn't put 2 nauts anyway as only one can do the 3d6 charge. Without it advance and charge is 11+3d6 for the threat range so not even to deployment zone in many map's and that's assuming opponent puts as close as possible(not something you can count) and you are evil sun. With 3d6 charge it's at least 11+4d6 for 25" move so 26" threat range. Better so even if opponent deploys 3" back(still bit forward heavy deployment) it's just 1" more than average which with rerolls isn't THAT bad.
I would rather do gorkanaut+2 bonebreaka.
Not most competive options but outside hardcore enviroment there's worse ones. Not every game is cuththroat power to max game(luckily)
Indeed that is probably better than 3 BBs because of the 3d6 charge strat which is great on the gork. Most opponents will gun down first the BBs because of the 4+ save which make them really not that durable despite having 16 wounds. leaving the gorkanaut to go rampage... Their "chaff" in front (sadly)... Plus only two of my battlewagons have deffrollas so... It seems ok against anything "weaker" than top tier lists, like Tneva82 says
addnid wrote: An actual englishman is spot on regarding all the reasons wartrike is overcosted. I haven' t tried as hard with wartrike, and won't bother. Solid agruments !
Thing with enabling gorkanauts to advance and charge is the point cost of all of this: two gorks and one wartrike is nearly 750 points which are just not very durable. Not convinced. With Bonebreakas I dunno maybe it could work if Bonebreakas were cheaper too. I may bee influenced by the fact that ork players around all seem to think BBs are really bad... Perhaps i could try triple BB with wartrike before I completely drop wartrike as an option As to shielding the wartrike, this is my wish:
Grots on bikes ! Grots on bikes to grot shield a wartrike ! Grot revolution !!
I wouldn't put 2 nauts anyway as only one can do the 3d6 charge. Without it advance and charge is 11+3d6 for the threat range so not even to deployment zone in many map's and that's assuming opponent puts as close as possible(not something you can count) and you are evil sun. With 3d6 charge it's at least 11+4d6 for 25" move so 26" threat range. Better so even if opponent deploys 3" back(still bit forward heavy deployment) it's just 1" more than average which with rerolls isn't THAT bad.
I would rather do gorkanaut+2 bonebreaka.
Not most competive options but outside hardcore enviroment there's worse ones. Not every game is cuththroat power to max game(luckily)
Indeed that is probably better than 3 BBs because of the 3d6 charge strat which is great on the gork. Most opponents will gun down first the BBs because of the 4+ save which make them really not that durable despite having 16 wounds. leaving the gorkanaut to go rampage... Their "chaff" in front (sadly)... Plus only two of my battlewagons have deffrollas so... It seems ok against anything "weaker" than top tier lists, like Tneva82 says
With the heavy focus on armor, this list would synergize well with dakkajets to clear chaff and open things up for the gork and bone breakers. 2 basic bone breakers with 10 double choppa nobs and 2 ammo runts in each (the cheapest unit that can actually get work done in cc while still fitting in a bone breaker) plus wartrike and two dakkajets is about 1400 points. Throw in a weirdboy and 30 boyz to jump up with the vehicle rush, along with two units of 10 grots to fulfill your battalion requirements. If index is allowed, add a kff big mek on a bike, if not, run a wazbomm with kff. it only needs to give the shield for the first turn anyways, after which everything gets stuck in. Spend the rest of the points on toys for the nobs or a megatrakk scrapjet. I'd probably run something like this:
Spoiler:
-=Evil Sunz Battalion=-
+HQ+
Deffkilla Wartrike
Weirdboy- Da Jump
+Troops+
30 Shoota Boyz with boss nob with big choppa
10 Grots
10 Grots
+Elites+
10 Nobz, 4 big choppas, 6 dual choppas, 2 ammo runts
10 Nobz, 4 big choppas, 6 dual choppas, 2 ammo runts
+Heavy Support+
Bone Breaker, Deff Rolla, 4 Big Shootas
Bone Breaker, Deff Rolla, 4 Big Shootas
Gorkanaut
+Flyers+
Dakkajet, 6 Supa Shootas
Dakkajet, 6 Supa Shootas
Wazbomm Blasta Jet, KFF, 2 Supa Shootas, 2 Wazbomm Mega Kannons, Smasha gun
Probably not going to win many tournaments, but it's a lot of vehicle saturation and the entire list will be in your opponent's face turn 1, with plenty of anti-chaff shooting to hopefully eat through any screens (kills an average of 45 guardsmen in a round of shooting!). Basically no ranged anti-tank outside the wazbomm though, so if your opponent has lots of stuff that can fall back and shoot to just keep kiting you, or is heavy on flyers, you're toast. Seems like it would be fun to run in a more casual meta though. Not sure what relic and warlord trait would be best here though.
I'm currently having a rough losing streak with my 120 Boyz Goff Green Tide. I want to win more, but I'd rather smash my entire army with a hammer than run them as Evil Sunz or, Gork forbid, any sort of gun line. Is there any way to win in a casual environment while sticking to the core principles of overwhelming numbers and melee?
The thing to remember is to be real about the limitations you place on yourself. In reality the way 8th edition's rules are designed, to make a melee army work you need to be able to reliably make it into close combat. This means for an ork army you can rely on a kultur bonus i.e. Evil sunz or stratagems.
Goff greentide struggles because there are no options to help them get into close combat, only buffs that make them hit harder once they get there.
If you want to keep within the goff kultur you can take a gorkanaut that is deep striking in. He can then shoot a hole in the chaff and use a stratagem to charge 3d6.
You can use your other boyz for chaff clearing on turn 1. Maybe make a first wave of boyz and stormboyz, then turn two everything else.
It is going to be tricky to get the numbers right. Also you can still be a melee centered army and bring some solid shooting. The fact is some things in this game just need to be shot, rather than choppa'd.
If you need protection for your Boyz on the way across the table, and Shooty goodness, consider the Wazbom Dakkajet. KFF will help with the first, the KMB and Smasha gun with the second.
russellmoo wrote: The thing to remember is to be real about the limitations you place on yourself. In reality the way 8th edition's rules are designed, to make a melee army work you need to be able to reliably make it into close combat. This means for an ork army you can rely on a kultur bonus i.e. Evil sunz or stratagems.
Goff greentide struggles because there are no options to help them get into close combat, only buffs that make them hit harder once they get there.
If you want to keep within the goff kultur you can take a gorkanaut that is deep striking in. He can then shoot a hole in the chaff and use a stratagem to charge 3d6.
You can use your other boyz for chaff clearing on turn 1. Maybe make a first wave of boyz and stormboyz, then turn two everything else.
It is going to be tricky to get the numbers right. Also you can still be a melee centered army and bring some solid shooting. The fact is some things in this game just need to be shot, rather than choppa'd.
I sold out, but not completely. While my main army is still Blood Axes, I'm running 40 boyz in a Bad Moons / Dread Waagh SSAG detachment. Those 160 rerolling shots on turn 1, DaJumped anywhere, sound so good. Had to add yellow shoulder pads (blech) but the deed is done, and will run them soon.
i feel your pain not wanting to play kultures you dont wanna play either for fluff or painting reasons.
Its the reason i run pure bad moonz. None of my stuff except a few random hyper-old stuff is painted anything else (Snikkrot not counting as hes fixed bloodaxe so painting him in bad moonz would be weird)
Lot of things i want to run but are a waste of time if i use bad moonz, and mixed kultures with the same paint scheme is a pain to keep track of.
I don't think you can run an even mildly competitive ork list without mixing kultures in an unfluffy way.
I just think of my warband as a merry klusterfu.k of greenskins put together by fate of war, ready for some good ol krumpin hah hah
I sold out, but not completely. While my main army is still Blood Axes, I'm running 40 boyz in a Bad Moons / Dread Waagh SSAG detachment. Those 160 rerolling shots on turn 1, DaJumped anywhere, sound so good. Had to add yellow shoulder pads (blech) but the deed is done, and will run them soon.
Key word there is "Sound so good" but in reality are meh. You use 1 strat to mob up, you use another strat to dakka twice and a weirdboy to da jump.
The math boils down to being able to wipe out a tac squad in 1 turn. But thats like 130pts where as you used closer to 340pts and 3 CP to do it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vineheart01 wrote: i feel your pain not wanting to play kultures you dont wanna play either for fluff or painting reasons.
Its the reason i run pure bad moonz. None of my stuff except a few random hyper-old stuff is painted anything else (Snikkrot not counting as hes fixed bloodaxe so painting him in bad moonz would be weird)
Lot of things i want to run but are a waste of time if i use bad moonz, and mixed kultures with the same paint scheme is a pain to keep track of.
My army is painted in a firm mismatch of kultures. I have a ton of Evil Sunz and Blood Axes and some Bad Moonz. I have ZERO Snakebitez and the only real Goff I have is Ghaz.
Looks like the new marine transport is getting a rule that lets them disembark after the vehicle moved as long as it didn't advance, but the unit disembarking can't charge. Makes me hopeful that trucks and BW's get a similar rule if we get a V2 of our codex.
No point if we can't charge out of it. Might as well stay inside and fire out of it with Open-Topped.
Side note: a multi-Kultured Ork army is about the fluffiest thing I can think of. Ork settlements aren't like the other races. You got Goffs brawling with Bad Moonz, and Deathskulls lootin' from Evil Sunz, and all the rest. And when they want to scrap with someone else, it ain't like the Bad Moonz are gonna stay behind while the Snakebitez go play. They all want to get in on that Waagh.
DrGiggles wrote: Looks like the new marine transport is getting a rule that lets them disembark after the vehicle moved as long as it didn't advance, but the unit disembarking can't charge. Makes me hopeful that trucks and BW's get a similar rule if we get a V2 of our codex.
Unless they give us a unit thats worth taking in a transport it doesn't really help us. I am assuming we get the reverse of this rule, we can get out and charge but not advance or some such shenanigans. But at the moment....what unit do we have that would use a transport to arrive into CC? Boyz? Not in trukkz and even a BW isn't worth it because if you lose 1 boy to Overwatch you lose 19 attacks.
Nobz? Still too over priced and not killy enough. Meganobz? Same as nobz but worse in my opinion. So what unit do you put in these transport to benefit from this possible new rule?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
flandarz wrote: No point if we can't charge out of it. Might as well stay inside and fire out of it with Open-Topped.
Side note: a multi-Kultured Ork army is about the fluffiest thing I can think of. Ork settlements aren't like the other races. You got Goffs brawling with Bad Moonz, and Deathskulls lootin' from Evil Sunz, and all the rest. And when they want to scrap with someone else, it ain't like the Bad Moonz are gonna stay behind while the Snakebitez go play. They all want to get in on that Waagh.
flandarz wrote: No point if we can't charge out of it. Might as well stay inside and fire out of it with Open-Topped.
Side note: a multi-Kultured Ork army is about the fluffiest thing I can think of. Ork settlements aren't like the other races. You got Goffs brawling with Bad Moonz, and Deathskulls lootin' from Evil Sunz, and all the rest. And when they want to scrap with someone else, it ain't like the Bad Moonz are gonna stay behind while the Snakebitez go play. They all want to get in on that Waagh.
Agreed, that's why I said I hope we get a similar rule not an exact copy. Even if it was an exact copy of the rule if there was a stratagem or additional rule letting the unit charge after disembarking it would make trucks more appealing.
Yeah for orks that rule is sorta pointless.
Tankbustas or burnas would be about all you'd ever want to do that with, and both would be a suicide tactic not a valid every-day strat.
I also play Admech and im super salty that even though we just got a transport that was given unusual emphasis that "it has a loading ramp!" we didnt get that rule, but Marines did when marines usually dont want it either. Admech would have gone bonkers for that rule lol
DrGiggles wrote: Looks like the new marine transport is getting a rule that lets them disembark after the vehicle moved as long as it didn't advance, but the unit disembarking can't charge. Makes me hopeful that trucks and BW's get a similar rule if we get a V2 of our codex.
Not really. Orks are not marines, they want to be able to charge. The transport rules are a little backwards, they should have allowed disembark after moving, but reduce the minimal charge distance to 3" to stop turn 1 charges...not that those aren't already possible with tyranids.
SemperMortis wrote: But at the moment....what unit do we have that would use a transport to arrive into CC? Boyz? Not in trukkz and even a BW isn't worth it because if you lose 1 boy to Overwatch you lose 19 attacks.
Nobz? Still too over priced and not killy enough. Meganobz? Same as nobz but worse in my opinion. So what unit do you put in these transport to benefit from this possible new rule?
Maybe Badmoonz Burnas? Hop em out, let em double shoot, then charge em in with their AP-2 CC Burnas? Throw a Banner Nob and Pain Boy in there with them, to fill up some slots in the Battlewagon. Probably not optimal, but it could be useful.
Book 4 at the beginning of next year if I understand correctly.
We're up against Space Wolves, so don't expect a meaningful victory for us in the storyline.
Ugh, I hate that we're against the space furries. Wasn't a fan of that last time with Sanctus Reach, I'd hate for them to just do an effective repeat of that. Give me BT anytime over them. I was disappointed to hear that it wasn't against Nids since I know that the last big thing was the Octarius Orks still duking it out against the Nids in the system.
Given the emphasis on psykers, we'll probably get a plastic Weirdboy from the event, if we're lucky we'll get another psychic table and maybe Old Zogwort. Since the 2 factions involved in the Eldar one got one new kit each, I'm guessing we'll get either plastic Kommandos or Tankbustas. Space Wolves will get some wulfen-primaris thing or SW specific unit, with a plastic primaris wolf priest/rune priest probably.
Yeah im a bit annoyed its against Wolves again too.
Especially since theres bound to be stuff i want in there, and i kid you not we have 0 space wolf players around here lol. So i cant go halvsies, gotta just hope i can ebay off the filthy 'umie side.
Worst part is if the kits from the Eldar box is anything to go by, besides the new kits, it'll be mainly them trying to push things with low sales. So probably the obligatory trukk, stormboyz, warbikerz, killa kanz or god forbid anything like a rukkatrukk squigbuggy.
At Midtcon Rasmus Olesen places second with the established combination of tons of smashas, lootas, SAGs and evil suns boys.
Andreas Drachmann comes in fourth with goff boyz and nobz!
Elliot Levy places third at Michigan GT with a deff skulls brigade and lootas.
That is surprising. Do you have a stream or breakdown on how Andreas was using his list? I'm guessing he made the boyz all skarboyz and marched up with Ghaz to drown the enemy in S5 attacks while the smashas do their thing?
Too bad that doesn't stop getting tons of IH benefits with parent chapter system anyway. Indeed lots of IH armies are actually using the custom traits as it is...
Also how you deal with orks then There's no custom klan system so are you going to force those with custom colour scheme play without klan bonuses?
edit: while I agree with the sentiment alas the GW has screwed up system so badly this just doesn't work. Alas we are stuck with free rules often leading to totally illogical combinations(like evil suns who wants to be the slow units rather than fast) and being totally screwed in terms of balance and really kicking anybody in the groins for trying to stick to one chapter/regiment/whatever(seems according to GW only 2 dynasties of necrons use airplanes and of those only 1 really. Rest have literally bonuses that have zero effect to airplanes...maximum advance? Gee. Planes do that already! Actually since it specifically says advances 6" rather than rolling dice would it mean plane advances 6" rather than 20" as other races? So weakens the unit...)
Emicrania wrote: We are organizing a major in February and the first rule will be WYSIWYG with colour scheme aswell. I'm so fething tired of yellows IH or red WS...
What if you army has a custom paintjob? No bonuses?
This is why I don't really like how the faction rules were done initially. The custom chapter thing should have been done from the very get go.
DrGiggles wrote: That is surprising. Do you have a stream or breakdown on how Andreas was using his list? I'm guessing he made the boyz all skarboyz and marched up with Ghaz to drown the enemy in S5 attacks while the smashas do their thing?
Sorry, no. The entire coverage gets drowned in "IH is OP" discussions, I couldn't find anything related to how the ork players played.
However, what those three guys did show us that we can beat Iron Hands, as the average player faced them them roughly every other game.
Most of their power seems to come from
1) castled up executioners(FLY and -2" charge against them) with iron stone and repair shenanigans that can pretty much move anywhere they want as they don't get -1 to hit
2) Invictors popping up 9" outside of your deployment zone to gun down infantry and block movement
3) TF cannon shooting twice (while re-rolling ones) and potentially halving movement of whatever it hits
4) Units that go over the curve by losing the -1 to hit penalty from moving and re-rolling ones like storm talons and land speeders
So I guess if your best chance at beating them is not getting caught on the wrong foot by invictors and then don't shoot things you can't kill - ie prioritize invictors, talons, land speeders, tf (if visible) and objective campers over the castle.
Charging is dangerous since the overwatch by most of these things is really deadly (high ROF, hit on 5+), and the executioners reduce your charge range, so use with care.
Theres some lengthy discussions about runtherders several pages back.
Jist of it: never, ever, EVER use runtherders.
You need 1 to cover like 2-3 30x grot squads for it to actually be worth it. And even then...just use a damn warboss.
Runtherders dont even use an elite slot so they arent even viable to fill slots up.
As passengers on a transport are not affected by aura abilities, v1.6 FAQ rulebook, do units in a battlewagon get the +1 to hit if competitive streak goes off?
I would say no, as competitive streak is a 24” aura effect from the unit that destroyed an enemy unit (my interpretation).
Yes they do actually, and its literally the only thing Open Top DOES confer to its occupants, as everything else is explicitly denied
Open Topped says it confers any benefits to the occupants. Other than Freeboota +1, everything we have that could be transferred it goes on to say "except it doesnt" such as ignoring heavy penalties when moving. The transport, long as it is Freeboota itself, gains +1 to hit. It then confers that to the occupants. That is the caveat though, it has to be a freeboota transport.
Q: If a transport with the Open-topped ability (e.g. a Trukk) is within range of an aura ability, are units that are embarked upon that transport affected by that ability?
A: No.
As competitive streak gives the unit that destroyed an enemy unit a 24” aura.?
You are correct, the faq restricts auras from affecting units inside. But like i said, as long as the transport is Freeboota the bonus is transferred via Open Topped since its a modifier. Technically any non-freeboota would get it too but the Freeboota ability to go into other kulture transports doesnt work the other way around sadly. The occupants are not receiving an aura effect, they are receiving the OpenTopped shared modifiers effect.
The ignoring heavy weapons is also conferred by the open-topped rule. Until the ork FAQ denied it.
Now why doesn’t the faq i mention deny the competitive streak aura?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vineheart01 wrote: The occupants are not receiving an aura effect, they are receiving the OpenTopped shared modifiers effect.
Clear, thanks.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I said clear and want to agree, but by this reasoning Badrukk standing next to an open-topped unit gives effect to transport, transport gives it to passengers.
But the faq literally, with the open-topped rule mentioned, denies this:
Q: If a transport with the Open-topped ability (e.g. a Trukk) is within range of an aura ability, are units that are embarked upon that transport affected by that ability?
A: No.
If open-topped was not mentioned in the faq I would easily agree with the reasoning. But this Faq is written with open-topped specifically mentioned. In the case of open-topped, aura effects are not conferred.
So I am back to competitive streak is not conferred to passengers.
Badrukk's aura is specifically for "Flash Gitz" not "Freeboota" The transport is not a Flash Git so it cannot benefit from the aura, and as a result it cannot transfer it via Open Topped. And if it did then we'd be back to the argument of old talking about "well, whats a modifier then?" since GW never actually defines that. Depending on who you talk to a modifier is strictly and literally changing the die result to another result, while a reroll just rolls it again and thus does not "modify" it. Moot discussion though since nothing we have generates that argument. Denying the Mobile Fortress bonus works because, again, its not a modifier, its a modifier ignoring rule. Yeah its a piece of garbage rule i know lol
Open-Topped specifies that Modifiers and such that affect the Transport get transferred to the Embarked unit. So, if the Battlewagon is within 24" of the unit that procced Competitive Streak, then it would receive a +1 to hit in that phase and transfer it to the passengers as well.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Basically, when it comes to Open-Topped and "auras", you just gotta go through 2 steps. 1: is it a Restriction or Modifier? If yes, then you move to step 2. If no, then it cannot be transferred to the Embarked Unit. 2: does it apply to the Transport? If yes, then it can be transferred to the Embarked Unit. If no, it cannot.
Automatically Appended Next Post: For example, a Banner Nob can't buff a unit inside of a Transport, because even though he's providing a Modifier, it does not apply to a transport. Alternatively, you cannot use the Showin' Off Stratagem on a Transport to allow the unit inside to fire twice, because it's not a Modifier or Restriction.
Vineheart01 wrote: Theres some lengthy discussions about runtherders several pages back.
Jist of it: never, ever, EVER use runtherders.
You need 1 to cover like 2-3 30x grot squads for it to actually be worth it. And even then...just use a damn warboss.
Runtherders dont even use an elite slot so they arent even viable to fill slots up.
That is not the case of multiple 30 strong . Somebody posted the math in it and Steven Pampreen came second to a major with a runtherd, if I remember correctly
Runtherders dont even use an elite slot so they arent even viable to fill slots up.
That's not a bad thing though.
I mean, do you want your elite slots to be taken up by runtherds, instead of something like tankbustas?
I don't think Runtherds are that bad. Yes, you could use a warboss, but wouldn't you want him to be in combat, instead of babysitting grots all game? You are paying points for close combat stats, grot sitting would be a waste.
Runtherds could probably use a points reduction though.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: I mean, do you want your elite slots to be taken up by runtherds, instead of something like tankbustas?
How many elite slots you expect to use? You have minimum 6 slots to use in standard ork army if not 9.
I don't run brigades, so minimum 0.
I still need a lot more grots to make that cheese farm.
by minimum I referred how many you have available. Minimum amount orks have for elites is basically 6(at least if we are talking about competive armies). So you have 6 slots. If runtherds were elite slot would you really be running short on slots? Elite is not strongest section for orks to begin with
I don't think Runtherds are that bad. Yes, you could use a warboss, but wouldn't you want him to be in combat, instead of babysitting grots all game? You are paying points for close combat stats, grot sitting would be a waste.
Runtherds could probably use a points reduction though.
Noticed a lot of tourney ddes run the super shokk mek as death skulls.
Wondering what the exact formula they run is with WL traits and strats.
So can re-roll a hit, wound and dmg which is neat
WL could give a +1 to wound vs vehicles or the re-rolls 1's to wound for DS one.
Strat is re-roll ALL wound vs vehicles (2cp)
i guess this strat and +1 WL might be combined? for easy wounding stuff.
thing is you only get one re-roll to hit, with BM ye re-rolling all 1's. Guess math have been done and DS is the way to go?
Latro_ wrote: Noticed a lot of tourney ddes run the super shokk mek as death skulls.
Wondering what the exact formula they run is with WL traits and strats.
So can re-roll a hit, wound and dmg which is neat
WL could give a +1 to wound vs vehicles or the re-rolls 1's to wound for DS one.
Strat is +1 to wound vs vehicles
i guess this strat and +1 WL might be combined? for a +2 to wound stuff.
If you have death skull detachment to spare deathskull is best. Albeit not huge difference but still a bit. Not sure what others use but I like the +1 to wound vs vehicles to counter those low strength rolls. Wounding on 5+ minimum, 4+ often really helps.
Ratius wrote: Guys, if you make a weirdboy or bigmek your warlord and give them the WL trait of follow me ladz, can they use breaking heads on Grot units?
Yes, as the gretchin are not affected by the stratagem, but by the aura that the character gained.
I've added a runtherd when I had a small amount of points to squeeze in and a few units of grots. Never used that list, though.
Had a 1250pt game last night vs primaris ultramarines, went pretty well!
lists:
Spoiler:
Me:
SSAG Mek
Deffkilla Wartrike
3 x 10 grots
3 Meganobs
5 Tankbustas
Mad Dok Grotsnik
Deffkopta, KMB
Bonebreaka, 2 Big Shootas
Bonebreaka, 2 Big Shootas
3 Deff Dreads (1 with BS/RL, 1 with Saw/KMB, 1 with 2 KMB)
Him:
(all primaris)
Captain, powersword
2 x mini-captains (only reroll 1's to wound)
Librarian
2 units of 10 primaris with bolt rifles
6 aggressors with the umpteen-thousand-ty shots at S4 and power fists
10 dudes with plasma rifles (S8, 9 when overcharged)
The plan:
Spoiler:
2 waves of attack; Bonebreakas in first, followed by the deff dreads, all spurred on by the wartrikes aura of chargyness. Wartrike finishes off any stragglers or distant units afterwards. SSAG hunts some vehicles (good plan, that) and does what a SSAG does. Grots hang back and take objectives late in the game. Tankbustas, MANS and grotsnik are there to take over when the bonebreaka dies. Deffkopta goes for opportunities.
The Game:
Spoiler:
Orks get turn 1, and pull off a turn 1 charge on the aggressors with the meganob/tankbusta/grotsnik bonebreaka, using ramming speed, after killing 1 with shooting. SSAG kills 1 of the heavy squad off. single KMB dread manages 2 hits with it after advancing (woohoo! Dakkadakkadakka!) to kill the aggressor and wound another.
I mess combat up and get confused by the bonebreaka rules managing to simultaneously forget to add D6 attacks, and misread "Add 3 to hit rolls" as "Add 3 "to hit" rolls", meaning I rolled 3 extra attacks and hit on a 5+, neatly doing not much.
return attacks kill the bonebreaka, which explodes (yay!), killing 1 more aggressor, leaving one mini-captain on 1 wound and killing the librarian. 3 Tankbustas die to save the Meganobs. all in all, a good result!
His turn 1, heavy dudes walk to get in range (he deployed them early so I took the other flank) and between them & the troops, chip some wounds off the deff dread closest to them. Aggressors surround the MANs and take 2 wounds off of 1, then charge. They get 6 powerfist wounds, and I assume all is lost. Roll the dice, and only fail 1, and then Grotsnik saves it for them with a 6! mini-captain then kills the wounded meganob, and the 2 left kill the aggressors.
Orks Turn 2, dreads attempt a charge on the primaris marines, and only one makes it ("With me lads! lads?") and starts to tear them a new one. SSAG kills 2 more primaris heavy dudes with plasmarifles. bonebreaka moves closer and hides from the plasmashots. mini-captain is killed and MANs consolidate into cover.
Ultramarines turn 2, he moves away and shoots a deff dread to death, killing it and chipping a wound off the bonebreaka (Everything is exploding!).
Orks turn 3, deffkopta arrives on the flank and tries to get a potshot at his warlord, who is now closest. Fails. SSAG fires twice at the heavy plasmarifle dudes and kills 4 of them. Deff Dread & MANs get into CC with the other primaris marines, bonebreaka supports the dread with the first squad to supplement it's move towards the heavy plasma dudes. at the end of combat, 1 primaris marine remains in CC with the Meganobs.
His turn 3, he shoots his heavy plasma rifle guys at the bonebreaka and, with some chipping from his HQ units, drops it to 4 wounds. his primaris marine gets lunched and I consolidate towards his last bastion of hope.
My turn 3, deffkilla charges his warlord, bonebreaka charges the last 4 plasma dudes, everything else trys to get closer. Grots come out of hiding to start getting objectives. Last tankbusta finds he's not in range of anything so goes for a distant objective instead. deffkopta fails another opportunistic warlord shot. CC sees his warlord survive the wartrike and put 5 wounds on him for his troubles. the 4 primaris plasma dudes die.
marines turn 3, he puts more hurt on the wartrike with his 2 remaining characters.
Orks turn 4, deffkilla moves out of combat and SSAG fires twice, once at each character. Character 1 get 8 S9 shots, and dies. his warlord gets a whopping 3 S4 shots, which whiff! bonebreaka charges, and the captain and the bonebreaka are left with 1 wound.
Ultramarine player concedes.
Lessons Learnt:
Deff dreads, if bought in 3's are actually quite effective. The lack of a reducing profile, individual unit status and a decent save make them quite good, I've found, if they stick together.
Wartrike is a buff character, like a KFF mek. his is not to go roaring off and kill the biggest thing on the battlefield, his is to stick behind your vehicles and make them go faster. At this, he is great - thanks to him, I got a turn 1 charge, and my deff dreads threat range was increased considerably thoughout the game. they wouldn't have connected until turn 3-4 without him.
Bonebreaka is basically made to kill primaris marines, especially now that I've remembered it gets D6 extra attacks when it charges!!! it's hard to decide what to put inside, I feel grots work as it's a cheap unit to drop on an enemy objective, if you get through the enemy lines. keeps losses minimal if the bonebreaka is specifically targeted.
No idea if grotsnik is worth it as he didn't get to fight, and only made 1 FNP attempt (which passed!).
New Iron Hands FAQ/Errata came out and basically laid the smack down on the whombo combo that was planned out from the book. Multi-damage weapons are still useful again against the Repulsor Executioners, especially now that they don't have a 5+ invuln from Feirros anymore. So Smash Gun spam and SSAG are still very viable options against them. IH are still very strong with their doctrine ability, but its not like they have an invincible castle of doom anymore.
Grimskul wrote: New Iron Hands FAQ/Errata came out and basically laid the smack down on the whombo combo that was planned out from the book. Multi-damage weapons are still useful again against the Repulsor Executioners, especially now that they don't have a 5+ invuln from Feirros anymore. So Smash Gun spam and SSAG are still very viable options against them. IH are still very strong with their doctrine ability, but its not like they have an invincible castle of doom anymore.
- IHKFF is now infantry only (just like Azrael)
- Iron Stone requires you to select one vehicle to protect at the start of the battle round
- only one character dreadnought
- deny stratagem now 2 CP (from 1)
- 4+ overwatch stratagem now 2CP (from 1)
- Nothing can be repaired more than once
So basically the invincible castle part has been nerfed hard. You'll still see all those heavy weapon vehicles, but at least something like killaklaw, nauts, tankbustas or lootas can take out the unprotected executioners.
It's good to see GW working so fast correcting their larger rules mistakes.
On a redder, faster note, I recently purchased 5 Ork Bikers to ride with my Biker Boss Warlord w. Killa Klaw and BBK. Would it make sense to give them a Nob with BC, or should I just field them as plain biker Boyz, as all they are for is to soak wounds from the Biker boss, and shoot screening units to bits, so that he can make a charge.
I'm playing another game this afternoon, this time I'm going Goff and bringing a unit of slugga boys to jump, deff dreads, a bonebreaka full of nobs with a waaagh! banner and a wartrike to keep it all moving. Supporting fire will be flashgits and a SSAG (not getting anything from the klan culture here, but it's still a good weapon). Hopefully they will hit hard and wreck things! I shall post what I learn from the game next week!
Jidmah wrote: I don't think you can go wrong with a big choppa, you want the nob anyways since it is a free extra wound.
Yeah, there's no point in not taking a nob. Its free stats.
I don't agree with that and I think you should pay for unit character upgrades, relics and that those unit upgrade stratagems (chapter masters, 'ard boyz, skarboyz) should be codex entries instead, but that's just me.
Thanks for the quick replies ladz, I had the old ways in mind, and I had forgot that the Nob was a free upgrade. Then I might as well give him a Big Choppa for 5 pts
Biker bossnob unfortunately lacks the wording for dual-choppa which is also good. Free 5 S5 attacks at the cost of your slugga...wooo! Unfortunately the Powerklaw is kinda worthless atm. Which annoys me, i have a lot of bikers with klaws lol.
Vineheart01 wrote: Biker bossnob unfortunately lacks the wording for dual-choppa which is also good. Free 5 S5 attacks at the cost of your slugga...wooo!
Unfortunately the Powerklaw is kinda worthless atm. Which annoys me, i have a lot of bikers with klaws lol.
Yeah, it really shows the swings between difference weapons in editions. Last edition plasma was pretty niche as a weapon while meltaguns were the hot sauce as far as special weapons went. Similarly, PK were our workhorse while big choppas were filler options for Nobz squads. Now its swung the other way around for both. Hopefully with the next CA, we'll at least have a price cut like everyone else got, though I feel like the PK should be D6 damage while the Killsaw does a flat 3.
I think D6 is a bit extreme given how easily we can spam it. Ever played the KMB spam game? Its kinda nuts how easily multiwound models just vanish. Its difficult to say what would be a good fix for it, other than just becoming pennies cheap with the -1 to hit modifier being the main cost. Make it too cheap, then why does the Bigchop exist? Make it too strong, what about dread klaws or killaklaw or even killsaws? It was only good before because instadeath was a thing. S9 splatted MOST multiwound models, and the few it didnt were a vehicle so it had good odds to explode them anyway. Since instadeath is gone and they dont do crazy damage theyre kinda moot. Plasma kinda devolved into just "feth your armor" shots, great at killing marines/termies not so great against vehicles unless you got access to stuff like Admech Ryza's stratagem that adds +1 to wound and damage for plasma weapons.
I'd have no issues paying 25 points for a D6PK with no -1 to hit.
BC would have the niche of being the cheap option in case you need to shave off points.
As for how easy it is to spam - every unit that could be used to spam PK nobz right now is performing poorly - trukk boyz, kommandoz, warbikers and every warboss without the killaklaw.
Anything but boyz gets caught by the rule of 3 anyways, and I don't think that spamming trukkboyz would be bad for the game, quite the opposite.
Oh yeah if they went back to 25pts and removed the -1 to hit i think they'd be fine. Maybe have killsaws to 2D3 damage for 4pts more? Killaklaw would probably want flat6 damage then and can you imagine the outrcry of our boss suddenly doing potentially 36 damage if all 6 attacks land/wound? (counting Fists of Gork here) would be hilarious as well as concerning.
At 25pts you arent really gonna spam them either. Squad of nobz would be a freakin' fortune to try and abuse that with lol and like you said boyz in a trukk wouldnt be that dangerous either, though it would make them more viable than they are.
Not really. If anything stuff does too much damage imo.
I almost wish the damage would get toned down a bit. But that would require a massive overhaul across the entire game.
flandarz wrote: There's a lot of things that need to be toned down in 8th. Like Invuln Saves and AP.
True dat. Unless you have some combination of high toughness, an invuln and some neg to hit mod or some FNP save you're almost guaranteed to die in a turn under even semi-dedicated firepower.
That too. I dont feel any generic weapon should have AP, even AP on a 6 to wound is pushing it, and getting beyond AP1 should be difficult. AP4-5 shouldnt even exist except for Titan grade weapons.
First since codex I'm total happy with my list. I call it done. Today, marines tabled T4 and more than 1000p of orks on the table in 1850p game.
Works well balanced. Mostly shooting, meganobz and warboss to keep the foots on ground (today like defence line againts masive DS with thunderhammers and some hard-as-nut dreadnoughts) and my favourite kill-what-you-want jets.
Vineheart01 wrote: Man its amazing how many toyz you can squeeze when you DONT try to use boyz.
Still hoping they dock their price back down. 7pt boyz is so dumb.
Vineheart01 wrote: That too.
I dont feel any generic weapon should have AP, even AP on a 6 to wound is pushing it, and getting beyond AP1 should be difficult. AP4-5 shouldnt even exist except for Titan grade weapons.
Yeah, I think this is where AoS gets it right. AP -1 is the most commonplace and mainly seen via elite units, AP -2 is pretty rare outside of a few special weapons in units and heroes, while AP -3 is almost unheard of outside of relics or specific special characters. With AP being handed out like candy it really devalues guys like Meganobz who rarely feel more survivable vs a unit of boyz.
tneva82 wrote: Does 8th ed need such a power up though. Marine fists etc all to d6 damage...Big change.
Is there any unit with powerfists considered competitive right now?
In addition, just because orks get them, doesn't necessarily mean that marines need to get them as well.
To be fair, a lot of Marine weapons in melee are now D3 + 1 or flat 4 damage are they not?
The Thunderhammers, relic weapons then added with the doctrine bonuses become pretty obscene.
It concerns me that White Scars have flown under the radar so much, their mobility and cc damage output is unreal. They have a huge win rate and yet we've all been so focused on IH they remain largely untouched.
Oh trust me they havent flown under my radar.
I actually dont have any powergamers in my area that follow whatever is strongest. Closest we got is 1 guy that at least knows the difference between casual and tournament lists. So nobody uses Iron Hands since nobody likes their fluff.
White Scars on the other hand theres 2 of them and MAN they are annoying. They have no super survivability but good grief they hurt.
I'm a bit unsure of the Bike Mek (Maybe make this a Bike Boss?), the kit of the Weirdboy, and if I should possibly make the 2nd bonebreaker a battlewagon so the Mega Nobz could shoot out of it (I could also possibly shave 1 meganob off and then put 10 gretchin in as ablative wounds).
Meganobz [12 PL, 210pts]
. Boss Meganob w/ PK: Kustom Shoota, Power Klaw
. Meganob W/ PK: Kustom Shoota, Power Klaw
. Meganob W/ PK: Kustom Shoota, Power Klaw
. Meganob W/ PK: Kustom Shoota, Power Klaw
. Meganob W/ PK: Kustom Shoota, Power Klaw
. Meganob W/ PK: Kustom Shoota, Power Klaw
Nobz [14 PL, 198pts]: 2x Ammo Runt
. Boss Nob: Big Choppa, Choppa
. Nob: Big Choppa, Choppa
. Nob: Big Choppa, Choppa
. Nob: Big Choppa, Choppa
. Nob: Big Choppa, Choppa
. Nob: Big Choppa, Choppa
. Nob: Big Choppa, Choppa
. Nob: Big Choppa, Choppa
. Nob: Big Choppa, Choppa
. Nob: Big Choppa, Choppa
Pretty much the only reason to use a Big Mek on Bike is to have a highly mobile KFF flouting around your fast vehicles (i.e. wagons) as it can cover 2 wagons easily if it sits between them. Also T5 makes a good deal of snipers less likely to plink at it. If it didnt move more than 6" it can fix things too.
Vineheart01 wrote: Pretty much the only reason to use a Big Mek on Bike is to have a highly mobile KFF flouting around your fast vehicles (i.e. wagons) as it can cover 2 wagons easily if it sits between them. Also T5 makes a good deal of snipers less likely to plink at it. If it didnt move more than 6" it can fix things too.
Otherwise, not really that important.
Alternative idea is ssag sniper guy if you regularly face character you really need to kill even at the expense of your ssag.
Vineheart01 wrote: Pretty much the only reason to use a Big Mek on Bike is to have a highly mobile KFF flouting around your fast vehicles (i.e. wagons) as it can cover 2 wagons easily if it sits between them. Also T5 makes a good deal of snipers less likely to plink at it. If it didnt move more than 6" it can fix things too.
Otherwise, not really that important.
Think I should swap it down to a regular Big Mek for 1st turn coverage? Or just go with a Biker Warboss?
Had another fun game vs ultramarines, chalked up a very, very close win. Got killpoints, and in the end I had to table him to win. The only way I managed it was with Endless Green Tide, I would have had 12 grots left without that!
I tried charging the deffkilla forward (with ramming speed and his 6" advance, he's a near enough guaranteed turn 1 charge) and it killed a couple of guys, who then walked off and shot him anyway because smurfs. so I can conclude that he is very, very much a buffing character and not intended for damage output!!! Though for units which can't fall back and shoot, he could be useful for making sure something doesn't shoot in turn 1, if you go first. Best just to keep him moving your vehicles along, methinks.
Flashgitz eat primaris pretty well. I put them in a trukk and pick a bit of cover to roll them into, and then leave it parked there for as long as there are targets. its a guarantee that they will all be able to see, and an effective way to keep them alive. use loot it when the trukk dies to give them a 3+ save (2+ in the cover you're in) and they become pretty durable!
Goff Nobs with twin choppas is pretty good, though only 3 survived to swing. they wiped 4 primaris out between them in one go.
Next thing I want is some GorkaMorkanaughts! I think they will work well with my 2-wave vehicle-rush approach!
I also tried the Wartrike for the first time yesterday. Wasn't impressed at all with its performance. The idea was too give my 4 scrapjets and 3 Boost blastas a dual role and charge them into the enemy after advancing. The dual role works well with those, mainly because of the mortal wounds, but the advance only adds a couple of inch to a fast units range. Will keep it for now in my list and give it another try.
The Deafskulls klan culture for scrapjets is awesome though. It not only works in the shooting and fight phase, but is also quite neat when doing overwatch. I've been on the receiving end of them with my Nids and they really scared me a bit from charging Carnifexes into them.
SSAG performed extremely well again. It downed two Eldar plains in one turn, one of these got 24 damage! and then went on to kille more in the subsequent turns. Is it broken?
Singleton Mosby wrote: SSAG performed extremely well again. It downed two Eldar plains in one turn, one of these got 24 damage! and then went on to kille more in the subsequent turns. Is it broken?
No. Wait till you face snipers and/or roll cold with it.
Singleton Mosby wrote: SSAG performed extremely well again. It downed two Eldar plains in one turn, one of these got 24 damage! and then went on to kille more in the subsequent turns. Is it broken?
No. Wait till you face snipers and/or roll cold with it.
Singleton Mosby wrote: SSAG performed extremely well again. It downed two Eldar plains in one turn, one of these got 24 damage! and then went on to kille more in the subsequent turns. Is it broken?
No. Wait till you face snipers and/or roll cold with it.
You really should not deploy the SSAG within sniper range. Against the few snipers that do have more than 36" range, the grot oiler is a sufficient defense, as it tends to keep him alive for 3 turns unless you get unlucky. If all fails, use a grot shield. Also keep in mind that orks are never beaten can also be used on the SSAG to get off a final shot with it.
But in general, for every game were the SSAG ruins the opposition it sits around and does jack for two other games. So you are basically investing those points and CP into a gamble.
I have a a half-finished piece of software that is supposed to calculate the chances of all possible SSAG results, but it can already tell me that the chance for the SSAG to do nothing at all lies at about 50% against a regular vehicle profile (T7, no invul) - not including low damage results where you plonk off just one or two wounds.
Singleton Mosby wrote: I also tried the Wartrike for the first time yesterday. Wasn't impressed at all with its performance. The idea was too give my 4 scrapjets and 3 Boost blastas a dual role and charge them into the enemy after advancing. The dual role works well with those, mainly because of the mortal wounds, but the advance only adds a couple of inch to a fast units range. Will keep it for now in my list and give it another try.
The Deafskulls klan culture for scrapjets is awesome though. It not only works in the shooting and fight phase, but is also quite neat when doing overwatch. I've been on the receiving end of them with my Nids and they really scared me a bit from charging Carnifexes into them.
SSAG performed extremely well again. It downed two Eldar plains in one turn, one of these got 24 damage! and then went on to kille more in the subsequent turns. Is it broken?
I'm now certain his sole purpose is support - he's not there for damage output.
I enjoyed using him with 2 bonebreakas and 3 deff dreads, for a turn 1 charge (ramming speed on whichever bonebreaker got closest) and a subsequent mop-up from the dreads.
Interestingly (and in keeping with the backward way orks and speed freeks work these days) he is of much greater use for dreads, kans and other slow vehicles than he is for the faster stuff. giving a dread a 6+D6" move is a much bigger improvement than giving a bonebreaka a 12+D6" move. The bonebreaka has every chance of doing fine without him.
Running dreads this game, after the wartrike died, they seemed so slow. When they finally got into range, I was hit by a wave of disappointment as I realised that they had advanced to do so. next turn, marines moved away. He can really be the difference between connecting or not connecting!
Singleton Mosby wrote: SSAG performed extremely well again. It downed two Eldar plains in one turn, one of these got 24 damage! and then went on to kille more in the subsequent turns. Is it broken?
No. Wait till you face snipers and/or roll cold with it.
You really should not deploy the SSAG within sniper range.
Singleton Mosby wrote: SSAG performed extremely well again. It downed two Eldar plains in one turn, one of these got 24 damage! and then went on to kille more in the subsequent turns. Is it broken?
No. Wait till you face snipers and/or roll cold with it.
Grotshield!
Apart from needing like 30+ grots to save it of course means your lootas are dead then. Not bad tradeoff.
And of course you don't always roll 24 wounds. That's waaaay above average. You average about 3 or so hits at S7. Vs non-modifier. And if you use the more dakka that was 4CP for ~6 hits(2 targets) at S7 in average. Plus 1 more for grot screen.
Many snipers have ability to deploy outside their own deployment zone. Unless ork player has designed terrain there's not unlimited # of places you can deploy without LOS becoming issue sooner than 36" range so he can position himself into suitable spot. So either you then hit into issue with LOS and opponent can avoid SSAG fire by LOS or you are within range of sniper.
I don't recall when I had more trouble with range than LOS with 36" weapon. It's the 24" on infantry model that has range issues.
Vindicare assassin has 72' range, primaris marine snipers can ignore LOS so with the current ETC table models, they will reach your SSAG (don't know their exact range though).
I guess we see less of that Vindi muvafokar now that "optimised Imperium" means marines, and marines need to be "pure" to really be OP
tneva82 wrote: Many snipers have ability to deploy outside their own deployment zone.
Scouts and eliminators can be outside 9", AM is outside 18" of your deployment zone (though I actually have to see ratlings on the battlefield), tau have 48" range but must deploy normally, necrons and eldar have to deploy in their deployment zone or deep strike and chaos in general usually uses psy powers which max out at 24". The big outlighers are character sniping warlord traits, Illic and the Vindicare, but those usually waste more points and CP on the SSAG that you paid for it.
Did I miss any?
So, for scouts and ratlings I agree, those might be in ruins somewhere midfield to pick off the SSAG mek, though scouts don't necessarily come with snipers. Eliminators tend not to be, because they are night impossible to shift through ork shooting, and putting them within 12" of your deployment zone is pretty much throwing them away just to get the SSAG. My marine opponents prefer having them sit in a protected spot and just have them shoot all game.
All other armies though? You can safely deploy on a ruin/pillar/silo/rock in the back of your deployment zone and get a good sight of most of the board, and even if there is one unit of snipers in range - the big mek has a grot oiler and 4+ (+cover), so a single unit of snipers will rarely drop him in one round of shooting.
I, for one, usually welcome units that are deployed close to my deployment zone, as I can use them as slingshot to get full mobs of boyz into midfield.
Unless ork player has designed terrain there's not unlimited # of places you can deploy without LOS becoming issue sooner than 36" range so he can position himself into suitable spot. So either you then hit into issue with LOS and opponent can avoid SSAG fire by LOS or you are within range of sniper.
You don't need that many targets anyways - I expect to get three rounds of shooting out of the SSAG maximum, so if there are two hard targets in sight, that's already a good position - after, all a single kill is enough to justify your investment. Planes, knights and primarchs tend to be in sight no matter where they are, so those always make good targets. If you are unluky enough to face invictor suits - those are great targets for the SSAG as well.
When playing with alternating deployment, you can just hold back the SSAG until there is a valuable target dedicated to one side and deploy accordingly. You can also bait them by deploying gretchin as potential grot shield but then setting up elsewhere.
When using CA2018 missions and you're going first, just put your lootas/two SAGs/mek guns on one side and the SSAG on the other.
I don't recall when I had more trouble with range than LOS with 36" weapon. It's the 24" on infantry model that has range issues.
36" sucks when your unit is immobile, which most snipers are. My entropy cannon PBC can tell you a story about that.
In general, 36" means that they can't reach units that aren't deployed directly across the table from them without moving.
A vindicare still needs to shoot three times in order to kill a big mek with grot oiler.
primaris marine snipers can ignore LOS so with the current ETC table models, they will reach your SSAG (don't know their exact range though).
36", so you can just outrange them - I've done that multiple times since shadowspear dropped, so I'm wondering what exactly the problem is.
For ITC, I guess those can sit in magic boxes right in front of your deployment zone and fire away at whatever they feel like, but I don't have any experience with that game-warping nonsense.
I guess we see less of that Vindi muvafokar now that "optimised Imperium" means marines, and marines need to be "pure" to really be OP
Imperial soup with Knights, AM, AdMech and Custodes will not disappear, and those can still bring assassins.
3 times but if opponent keeps valuable targets out of los...how bare table you play? Here single knight can be protected. 8th requires good los blocking.
And you can't generally put ssag in tall spot at your corner anyway...unless you designed terrain
I generally avoid trying to set the terrain up because of the SSAG and yet my opponents seem to always put a high perch in 2 opposite corners. Its kinda amusing to see their face when i plop the SSAG there....when they know i have it 90% of the time lol He's only died once for me and i attribute that to my opponents just not thinking about dealing with it. That time he died? something chaff cleared my grots first and then a jumppack assault marine squad DS'd in and charged, to which i still killed 3 on overwatch lol
I always try to set up terrain so both sides will usually get a bit of cover and a lofty perch - it's nicer for people to be able to use their army how they wanted to. I hate when you see tables with ruins on one side and rocks on the other - oh good, you get cover whilst I have to move around rocks, seems fair...
tneva82 wrote: 3 times but if opponent keeps valuable targets out of los...how bare table you play? Here single knight can be protected. 8th requires good los blocking.
And you can't generally put ssag in tall spot at your corner anyway...unless you designed terrain
Our tables tend to have 40-50% terrain coverage (unless it has natural LOS blocking due to different levels) - if you can't find an elevated spot for two bases somewhere within 6" of your table edge, I'd rather wonder how little terrain your tables seem to have. The table is usually set up by the players playing on another table, and CA2018 allow you to pick your deployment type and zone, unless you are counter-deploying anyways.
Terrain tall enough to hide a knight should be the exception, not the norm. We have a couple of very tall LOS blocking terrain pieces that go in the middle (we have enough terrain for 100% coverage on three tables), but none of those can hide Mortarion, Dakkajet or a Morkanaut from more than one unit in elevated positions - those piece of terrain would have to be at least 7" wide and 12" tall, with no windows whatsoever.
Yeah knight-blocking terrain should be a center-piece only if it exists at all.
If your battlefield has relatively thin pathways between terrain that tall youre gonna have problems.
Playing my mate's knights, he goes first kills pretty much all my mek guns, all my lootas all the stuff obvious anti-tank stuff.
I'm like oh lawd panic mode, POWER UP relic shokk mek. There is a valiant infront of my lines it needs to die.
I'm hitting up re-roll to wound strat for death skulls
I'm hitting up more dakka
I'm re-rolling a to hit with a cp
I do 5 wounds! ugh
I'm hitting up fire again!
- we're on 7CP spent here.
We get some shots in, he saves loads (4++ ofc and he cp's one) but 3 get through!
3 D6 juicy wounds (with a re-roll of one of them), i'v gotta at least half kill him with his roll.
thats pretty much the sole reason Deathskullz is generally better than Badmoonz for shooting unless immense levels of dakka are involved in 1 units worth of shooting (shootaboyz, lootas)
Deathskullz can reroll the damage roll. One of those 1s could have become a 6 after a reroll. Still sucks but way better.
Vineheart01 wrote: Yeah knight-blocking terrain should be a center-piece only if it exists at all.
If your battlefield has relatively thin pathways between terrain that tall youre gonna have problems.
I suppose that depends do you want gunline games with shoot 'em"up mentality or not. We here prefer less static gunline games
I only used DS ifor the first time in my last game for the msu stuff like koptas and stuff it might as well go on like slugga boyz.
To be honest i think i might just go full DS, that 6 up inv actually pays off in combat and the re-rolls were a god send send for nobs in combat.
Only had 60 shoota boyz and the lootas as badmoon... might just rock them as DS too. Esp when you can use those re-rolls on a cheeky tank busta bomb.
Thinking of running a few more kopta units, 20" cheekcy obsec might be fun
Koptas are a vehicle this edition. Why i have no idea, but they are a vehicle.
And that everybody gets ObSec rule is infantry only. So only foot HQs, Nobz, MANz, Gitz, Lootas, Tankbustas, Burnas, and Stormboyz get it.
Which on one hand is quite a lot of stuff, but then you realize the vast majority of it has no staying power anyway.
Vineheart01 wrote: Oh yeah if they went back to 25pts and removed the -1 to hit i think they'd be fine. Maybe have killsaws to 2D3 damage for 4pts more? Killaklaw would probably want flat6 damage then and can you imagine the outrcry of our boss suddenly doing potentially 36 damage if all 6 attacks land/wound? (counting Fists of Gork here) would be hilarious as well as concerning.
At 25pts you arent really gonna spam them either. Squad of nobz would be a freakin' fortune to try and abuse that with lol and like you said boyz in a trukk wouldnt be that dangerous either, though it would make them more viable than they are.
Currently PKs are D3 damage and -1 to hit and cost 13pts On a nob with 3 attacks its 1.5 hits, against most vehicles its 3+ to wound so 1 wound and -3AP the chances are its going through. So 2 damage on average, if you want to be really really picky it works out to like 1.67 if you factor in the 1 in 6 chance to save it.
At 25pts without the -1 to hit its 2 hits, 1.66 wounds and with the 1/6 chance to save it works out to 1.38ish wounds going through, at D6 damage its 4.8 damage.
So just shy of twice the cost for just shy of 3x the damage. I mean...its better, but honestly still not worth it. At 25pts your nob now costs you 32pts. You are now in Terminator/Meganob territory. At most I would pay 18pts for this upgrade since the 13pt PK is just never used.
Vineheart01 wrote: Yeah knight-blocking terrain should be a center-piece only if it exists at all.
If your battlefield has relatively thin pathways between terrain that tall youre gonna have problems.
I suppose that depends do you want gunline games with shoot 'em"up mentality or not. We here prefer less static gunline games
Any terrain taller than a LRBT is plenty to massively limit gunlines - just not against planes, knights or daemon primarchs.
Having massive amounts of terrain that can block those is not normal by any means and invalidates any advantages of heightened positions.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
flandarz wrote: The best ones to use it for are the MANz, but it'd be nice if they had the killing power to go along with their durability against infantry.
Actually, I frequently have it coming up for characters. Against forward objectives, Grotznik has more than once secured an objective held long-range units like devs or tanks, and when a single objective is worth lots of VP (Maelstrom or certain CA missions), it also makes sense to send a Weirdboy or KFF mek onto one to defend it from fast units jumping onto it.
When your lootas start dying, you can also start hiding the last few and have them guard objectives.
In general, I enjoy playing with deffskulls very much, as it feels like they "work" for pretty much every unit - unlike most other clans which only benefit certain types of units.
Automatically Appended Next Post: You aren't paying 32 for a nob tough, you a re paying 109 for trukkboyz which can now actually hurt and kill vehicles when used in pairs, which could safely be ignored previously.
Of course, 25 might be too much, but keep in mind that Warbosses can also take that PK.
Deffskullz DOES seem like our best "all around" Kultur. And I can see how obsec would be good for characters, but I still feel like it truly shines when used on MANz, since they have more durability. Even a single MAN has more survivability than a KFF Mek against everything but Anti-Armor.
MANz tend to krump things on objectives dead though. It usually only matters if you are charging troops and some survive (nurglings or intercessors like to do that).
It's a niche ability, just like the 6++, but it's awesome when it does something.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Tom Higginbottom places third with the proven mix of evil suns boyz, 15 smashas, tank bustas, SSAG and some KFF meks.
We should keep an eye on that guy, he seems to be doing well with orks quite regularly.
Not too weird. Orks have been picking lootas, tank bustas or flash gits for some time now. The important part is having some unit to turn your CP into damage, any of the three can do that.
In the test game I run I'm using flashgitz, tankabusta and 30 bad moons shootas.
It feels really flexible as the mek gunz can eat Marines pretty well, the SSAG is a scarecrow and the real footwork is made by shootas or tankabusta. I'm yet to make those Flashgitz shine, but yeah, they are a nuisance if you manage to proc that +1 and stay stationary.
Also 115 grots looks terrific on the board.
I think I'll write some sort of protocol on what to focus vs the worst matchups. Problem is I don't know which is a bad matchup aside 4 zombie knights and the new Marines
Issue with FGs is that you kinda hafta go "all in" with them, or they'll always seem lackluster. And making them the focus of your list means you can't really bring anything else that relies on Grot Shield for protection, since they're too expensive to leave out in the open. Their mediocre range and Heavy weapons can also be an issue.
flandarz wrote: Issue with FGs is that you kinda hafta go "all in" with them, or they'll always seem lackluster. And making them the focus of your list means you can't really bring anything else that relies on Grot Shield for protection, since they're too expensive to leave out in the open. Their mediocre range and Heavy weapons can also be an issue.
My big issue with the Gitz is the stupid pirate hats.
I think flashgitz are overpriced mainly due to them having a gun that is heavy. If it was assault 3 rather than heavy 3, they would be worth their points, as they would be able to start in your deployment zone then move into range without penalty, or telyport in without suffering a to hit penalty.
I think you can still use them but only in a list that forces the opponent to come to you.
Also, with the effect iron hands is having on the meta, along with a few other marine builds, (the doctrine that treats ap1 as ap 0) means that I can see players shifting away from ap1 d2 lootas to units that have more ap, and/or damage.
flandarz wrote: Issue with FGs is that you kinda hafta go "all in" with them, or they'll always seem lackluster. And making them the focus of your list means you can't really bring anything else that relies on Grot Shield for protection, since they're too expensive to leave out in the open. Their mediocre range and Heavy weapons can also be an issue.
My big issue with the Gitz is the stupid pirate hats.
Flash gits are 100% compatible with the nobz box - head swaps should be by far the easiest thing to do.
russellmoo wrote: I think flashgitz are overpriced mainly due to them having a gun that is heavy. If it was assault 3 rather than heavy 3, they would be worth their points, as they would be able to start in your deployment zone then move into range without penalty, or telyport in without suffering a to hit penalty.
I think you can still use them but only in a list that forces the opponent to come to you.
Also, with the effect iron hands is having on the meta, along with a few other marine builds, (the doctrine that treats ap1 as ap 0) means that I can see players shifting away from ap1 d2 lootas to units that have more ap, and/or damage.
I find that the heavy is mitigated by the freebooterz keyword. Having 8/12 gunz shooting at something, usually give the back 4+. Also Badrukk. And I never moved them more than once in my 5/6 playtest.
For making flashgits work, I've had great success in running them in a trukk. I have run 7 of them in a trukk in 3 games now, and in all 3 they have done a fair share of the damage.
I usually aim to get the trukk lined up with some fairly central ruin cover which it can fit into, if possible, and move it in on the first turn. Gits hit on 6's this turn, and there's usually a lot of more pressing seeming things to kill on turn 1, so they tend to make it to turn 2. At that point, anything your trukk can see is the target of all the gits - there's no risk of having to move one of them to see - and they tent to smush some ripe heavy infantry unit. Then the trukk gets shot, I loot it, and the gits sit in cover with a 2+ save. by this time, the grots have walked and caught up, and I have a shield from anything too powerful, if I don't need it elsewhere. it's worked as a pretty solid tactic so far. The trukk also means that the gits can spend a turn to relocated if they find themselves lacking targets or in the wrong place. The whole unit takes a fair bit of killing to nullify the threat (last game had just the squad leader with 1 wound left, but he killed off a character with his shooting!) so as long as you build a list where ignoring another element of your list is suicide (bonebreakas and a wartrike, I tend to use) then people will have to overlook the gits in favour of not being run down by bonebreakas.
I've contemplated taking a full unit of 10, but it comes in too expensive for my liking. 5 just can't deal the damage, but 7 seems like a good number to me. a nice balance of killy but not too expensive.
I'm running them on foot, let's see how the tournament goes. If I have them by side of the Battlewagon with the tankabusta I might pull off the loot it shenanigans
Emicrania wrote: I'm running them on foot, let's see how the tournament goes. If I have them by side of the Battlewagon with the tankabusta I might pull off the loot it shenanigans
Good Luck! IMHO it's rarely worth looting it on gitz unless they are in cover - in the open, a 3+ save multi-wound bullet magnet isn't going to fare much better than a 4+ save one.
You could perhaps jump them into the wagon if the Tankbustas want to jump out and pop the grenades strat on something, to keep the gits alive a bit longer. I can't wait to pull off that stratagem on something big!
What are your plans for this? You have 2 weirdboys but only 1 unit worth jumping.
I'm assuming the 'orkanaughts move forwards turn 1 and are protected by the wazbomm, and then you're aiming for a turn 2 charge with them? Or are you planning on tellyporting them in?
If you want to footslog the 'orkanaughts, you could try to squeeze a deffkilla wartrike in to get them closer. I've had successful turn 2 charges with deff dreads and a wartrike. just don't expect him to do any damage to anything that can fight back, or he will die! his whole role is to make dreads and all other vehicles faster, so use it!
I've run a very similar list and it can be effective. The shokk attack guns are incredibly dependent on the +1 to hit but everything else can get by without it. Shove your nauts into the dreadwaagh so they can access the Strat to shoot twice!
Be cautious on relying on the kultur. Your opponent will try to deny you triggering it as much as they can.
A good Strat is to try and trigger it first with mek guns (duh) and second try using the dakkajets. Be careful with their positioning so they're not too far to spread the love. Dakkajets simply have killy potential without any buffs.
Also you have enough points left to squeeze in an extra boy.
some bloke wrote: For making flashgits work, I've had great success in running them in a trukk. I have run 7 of them in a trukk in 3 games now, and in all 3 they have done a fair share of the damage.
I usually aim to get the trukk lined up with some fairly central ruin cover which it can fit into, if possible, and move it in on the first turn. Gits hit on 6's this turn,
Gits are BS4+, they hit on 5s when moving, the kaptin hits on 4s. Typo?
Well, Badrukk's "Flashiest Gitz" ability puts them just about on par with each other. He's also better in CC with a 2+ and 5 attacks, all around tougher (more Wounds, better Save, 5+ Invuln), and has a better gun.
But, really, the Kaptin *should* shoot good. Freebooterz are extremely competitive. You think that Kaptin is gonna let the other Gitz shoot better than him? Ha! And that's why Badrukk don't take no Squig. Who's gonna compete with him? He's already da flashiest Git and anyone who thinks otherwise is gonna take a krumpin'.
As for using Loot It on your Gitz: might as well. It only costs ya 1 CP and, if your vehicle is going down anyway, you might as well force your opponent to fire his heavy stuff at ya if he wants to take you down.
some bloke wrote: For making flashgits work, I've had great success in running them in a trukk. I have run 7 of them in a trukk in 3 games now, and in all 3 they have done a fair share of the damage.
I usually aim to get the trukk lined up with some fairly central ruin cover which it can fit into, if possible, and move it in on the first turn. Gits hit on 6's this turn,
Gits are BS4+, they hit on 5s when moving, the kaptin hits on 4s. Typo?
damn, actually I was just wrong. I thought they have +1 to hit if they don't move, for some reason (making them 4+). Might be a hangover from the past. Might just be me being a derp.
Jidmah wrote: They still seemed to do OK for you, so you basically got a free buff now
Quite so! always good to find a unit is better than you were running them (like when I realised bonebreakas have +3 to hit rolls, and not +3 to hit rolls (IE I added 3 dice and hit on 5+,rather than hit on a 2+). I also forgot their +D6 attacks for charging! D'oh!).
Next time I run bonebreakas and flashgits, they will do so much better! (and now I've said that, expect them to vacate the board on turn 1...)
flandarz wrote: Issue with FGs is that you kinda hafta go "all in" with them, or they'll always seem lackluster. And making them the focus of your list means you can't really bring anything else that relies on Grot Shield for protection, since they're too expensive to leave out in the open. Their mediocre range and Heavy weapons can also be an issue.
Put 10 Flash Gitz and a unit of grotz in a Battlewagon. Mobile bunker and when it blows: the grotz die, you Gitz get 3+ sv and have their own portable grot shield with them.
some bloke wrote: I also forgot their +D6 attacks for charging! D'oh!).
Stuff like that happens too often for my as well. Forgetting the 6++ for Deafskulls for an entire game. Or -1 to hit for most of my Nids army for an entire tourney
Forgetting the extra D6 on the charge is literally forgetting why its a bonebreaka lol. A standard wagon with rolla is exactly the same as a bonebreaka, minus the mandatory 'Ard Case, has 8 more crew slots, and the extra D6 attacks. I actually prefer the regular wagon with rolla. D6 doesnt like me, i swear every time i roll a D6 for random shots/strength/damage i roll low as hell (the amount of times my SSAG has rolled Str3-4 and 4-5 shots is irritating) so naturally my luck with that is in the Bonebreaka too...i almost never got more than 1-2 more attacks, but sacrificed the unit inside's shooting to get it. With choppy Nobz/MANz, no big deal since shooting isnt their job. Boyz, gitz, or tankbustas...thats kinda their reason to exist so i want them to shoot. Being T7 does kinda blow but against most armies it honestly makes very little difference to me to be T8 instead, since im getting hit with the same S9 weapon anyway or theres reroll wounds so while i cut some shots off, in the end i still die just as quick.
Besides, they arent the main focus of the army. Theyre the distraction. I want them to look more vulnerable than the actual threats.
Weazel wrote: Umm, pretty sure my codex says Zog Off! Dis is ours! is only for TROOPS. Am I mistaken or has this been FAQ'd or whatever?
It is. Zog Off is just another term for objective secured.
Death Skullz gives Zog Off to every infantry unit, which makes MSU / Elite builds on Death Skullz viable.
Evil Sunz and Death Skullz are probably the best Kultures for mono-builds, if you build them right. The traits they provide are just so versatile and useful, that you don't really need to soup, imo.
Agreed. Evil Sunz is basically the quintessential soup Kultur. Them and Bad Moonz. As for Freebooterz... well, if more armies fielded MSUs of weak Infantry, they'd be in a lot better place. They still almost require that you go Mono, but so many lists just shut down their Kultur benefit.
Deathskullz is really the best Kultur, in my eyes. No matter what kind of list you're going for, it has something for you. It might not be the best choice for every unit and playstyle, however.
Jidmah wrote: Evil Suns? Free bootas much more likely.
Evil suns don't benefit most shooting units(including bikes and buggies), and you really need some dakka to survive in 8th.
I disagree. Being able to advance and shoot assault weapons with no penalties is pretty useful if you are playing aggressively, and assault weapons are really common in the ork codex.
Free Bootas are nice, but you have to kill a unit first to get the buff. Which might not always happen.
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flandarz wrote: Agreed. Evil Sunz is basically the quintessential soup Kultur. Them and Bad Moonz. As for Freebooterz... well, if more armies fielded MSUs of weak Infantry, they'd be in a lot better place. They still almost require that you go Mono, but so many lists just shut down their Kultur benefit.
Deathskullz is really the best Kultur, in my eyes. No matter what kind of list you're going for, it has something for you. It might not be the best choice for every unit and playstyle, however.
Eh, it depends. I find DeathSkullz work best if you have a lot of powerful, single shot weapons. So Rokkit Launchers, KMB, ect.
If you have a lot of RoF assault weapons they don't work as well as you can only reroll 1 die and those weapons tend to be damage 1 too, so you're better off going Evil Sunz or Bad Moonz.
They do work best in those lists. But if you have the least Deathskull optimized list, you can still enjoy 1 reroll for hit, wound, and damage, a 6++ Save, and Obsec on all Infantry. That's why I say it's the best. Other than Snakebitez (which I consider to be the worst Kultur) and Freebooterz (which can get shut down at the list building step), no other Kultur offers benefits which are good no matter what you're playing or doing.
Freebootas in general i always viewed as an all or nothing kulture. Flash Gitz followed by Badrukk can get away with being in other kultures usually, since he basically gives them the Bad Moonz kulture anyway, but if you take anything else as Freebootas i just feel obligated to make EVERYTHING that.
Mostly because orks being so random you cant guarantee the +1 triggers. More units to trigger it, more likely your big hitter gets the bonus before he fires.
My only real beef with Freeboota is their kulture actually suffers to -1 shenanigans, while the others sorta dont care for the most part. And i face a lot of eldar/harlies so -1 or even -2 is pretty common. Being forced to keep most of your army in a 24" bubble is more of a nuisance than a problem since any random boyz you send ahead, lag behind, or try to flank are probably only in range of 1-2 other units if any, so they wont get the kulture bonus most of the time.
I just acquired my brother's ork models and as I'd like to get back into 40k (last played in 3rd ed), what are the must-buys (apart from boyz) at the start?
From the models I have I made a 1k points list, what did I forget or should add?
Warboss [4 PL, 72pts]: Ard as Nails, Attack Squig, Big Choppa, Kustom Shoota, Warlord
+ Troops +
Boyz [11 PL, 233pts] . Boss Nob: Choppa, Power Klaw
. Ork Boy W/ 'Eavy Weapon: Big Shoota
. Ork Boy W/ 'Eavy Weapon: Big Shoota
. 27x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa
Boyz [11 PL, 233pts] . Boss Nob: Choppa, Power Klaw
. Ork Boy W/ 'Eavy Weapon: Big Shoota
. Ork Boy W/ 'Eavy Weapon: Big Shoota
. 27x Ork Boy W/ Shoota
Gretchin [4 PL, 78pts] . 26x Gretchin
+ Elites +
Nobz [7 PL, 103pts] . Boss Nob: Choppa, Power Klaw
. Nob: Big Choppa, Choppa
. Nob: Big Choppa, Choppa
. Nob: Big Choppa, Choppa
. Nob: Big Choppa, Choppa
+ Fast Attack +
Warbikers [7 PL, 105pts] . Boss Nob: Choppa, Power Klaw
. 3x Warbiker: 3x Stikkbombs
+ Heavy Support +
Deff Dread [5 PL, 95pts] . Deff Dread: Big Shoota, Big Shoota, Dread Klaw, Dread Klaw
The list is made from models I currently have, I've read about a special shokk attack gun but couldn't find anything in the Kodex, which book do I need?
I was also sad to see that I can't really use my looted Leman Russ anymore, can I just play it as a Gunwagon or will people be confused?
Any starter help is welcome
The Souped Up Shokka is a special detachment found in the Vigilus book, forget which one exactly.
Literally all it is is spend 1 CP to make a detachment a Dread Waaagh! and you can replace a regular SAG with a Relic variant following normal relic rules (or shiny gubbinz as we call it). Souped Up Shokka is literally the SAG with 2D6 shots, nothing else different. That detachment also confers a couple of stratagems but only one is worth mentioning: Kustom Ammo. Lets the Big Meks, Killa Kanz, Deffdreadz, or Gork/Morkanauts fire a second time for 2cp if they are apart of this detachment.
Looted Leman Russ can be used as a Gunwagon and nobody should be all that confused, either that or a Supa Kannon from Forgeworld. Only two things orks have it really could be anyway.
As for "Must Buys" its drastically up to your way of playing preference. In general, go all-in on vehicles or dont even bother touching them at all. The old saying "Boyz before Toyz" is not valid anymore, i often sacrifice my boy numbers and do fine.
Jidmah wrote: Evil Suns? Free bootas much more likely.
Evil suns don't benefit most shooting units(including bikes and buggies), and you really need some dakka to survive in 8th.
I disagree. Being able to advance and shoot assault weapons with no penalties is pretty useful if you are playing aggressively, and assault weapons are really common in the ork codex.
Free Bootas are nice, but you have to kill a unit first to get the buff. Which might not always happen.
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flandarz wrote: Agreed. Evil Sunz is basically the quintessential soup Kultur. Them and Bad Moonz. As for Freebooterz... well, if more armies fielded MSUs of weak Infantry, they'd be in a lot better place. They still almost require that you go Mono, but so many lists just shut down their Kultur benefit.
Deathskullz is really the best Kultur, in my eyes. No matter what kind of list you're going for, it has something for you. It might not be the best choice for every unit and playstyle, however.
Eh, it depends. I find DeathSkullz work best if you have a lot of powerful, single shot weapons. So Rokkit Launchers, KMB, ect.
If you have a lot of RoF assault weapons they don't work as well as you can only reroll 1 die and those weapons tend to be damage 1 too, so you're better off going Evil Sunz or Bad Moonz.
The to hit wound and damage always gets talked about the most but that 6++ is equally important and can play a part even for the units that are high RoF. Many times I get a heavy hitter in combat with my gork/mork and I usually save my rerolls for the gork in the assault phase but when the smash captain hits you and you save 1 or more hits due to that 6++ it is worth it. Lascannons also against unKFF'd units tend to make that unit rely on that 6++.
Vineheart01 wrote: Freebootas in general i always viewed as an all or nothing kulture. Flash Gitz followed by Badrukk can get away with being in other kultures usually, since he basically gives them the Bad Moonz kulture anyway, but if you take anything else as Freebootas i just feel obligated to make EVERYTHING that.
Mostly because orks being so random you cant guarantee the +1 triggers. More units to trigger it, more likely your big hitter gets the bonus before he fires.
My only real beef with Freeboota is their kulture actually suffers to -1 shenanigans, while the others sorta dont care for the most part. And i face a lot of eldar/harlies so -1 or even -2 is pretty common. Being forced to keep most of your army in a 24" bubble is more of a nuisance than a problem since any random boyz you send ahead, lag behind, or try to flank are probably only in range of 1-2 other units if any, so they wont get the kulture bonus most of the time.
Yeah, its also very luck dependent and honestly I feel like Freebooterz get weaker as the game goes on, as there is less and less to kill with and less to actually kill as well, since I noticed most of the casualties are taken in the first 3 turns. The other kulturs aren't as dependent and their abilities being constantly on makes them more consistent to play.
Vineheart01 wrote: Freebootas in general i always viewed as an all or nothing kulture. Flash Gitz followed by Badrukk can get away with being in other kultures usually, since he basically gives them the Bad Moonz kulture anyway, but if you take anything else as Freebootas i just feel obligated to make EVERYTHING that.
Mostly because orks being so random you cant guarantee the +1 triggers. More units to trigger it, more likely your big hitter gets the bonus before he fires.
My only real beef with Freeboota is their kulture actually suffers to -1 shenanigans, while the others sorta dont care for the most part. And i face a lot of eldar/harlies so -1 or even -2 is pretty common. Being forced to keep most of your army in a 24" bubble is more of a nuisance than a problem since any random boyz you send ahead, lag behind, or try to flank are probably only in range of 1-2 other units if any, so they wont get the kulture bonus most of the time.
Yeah, its also very luck dependent and honestly I feel like Freebooterz get weaker as the game goes on, as there is less and less to kill with and less to actually kill as well, since I noticed most of the casualties are taken in the first 3 turns. The other kulturs aren't as dependent and their abilities being constantly on makes them more consistent to play.
I feel like towards the end of the game the opposite is true. At the end you should have less models and so should your opponent yes, but those units should be whittled down to where it makes them easier to proc. ( the only difficulty being that your units are also damaged)
Depends on whats left.
If its a handful of tac marines, yeah they'll die easily.
If its a dread that he's manage to keep alive and well after your anti-tank is gone, it'll be a problem.
Any T7+ is a major thorn if all you got left is small arms with at most -1ap
To add to what Vine said, by end game, you've likely already burned through your easy procs. So you're more likely to have tough, hard to take down, units left to deal with than a whittled down unit that you can get your +1 from.
Jidmah wrote: Evil Suns? Free bootas much more likely.
Evil suns don't benefit most shooting units(including bikes and buggies), and you really need some dakka to survive in 8th.
I disagree. Being able to advance and shoot assault weapons with no penalties is pretty useful if you are playing aggressively, and assault weapons are really common in the ork codex.
Lootas, wazzbom, SAG and tank bustas all don't benefit from advancing and shooting at all, bringing none of these units makes you unable to compete unless you are going full tide - which will auto-lose if your opponent asks for a chess clock.
If do you bring these, your army will always be better if you just shift them to bad moons or deff skulls.
Evil suns primarily benefit melee units arriving from deep strike(boyz, nauts, dreads) and secondary fast units that could pull off first turn assaults (deffkilla, bonebreaka, warbikes, buggies).
Free Bootas are nice, but you have to kill a unit first to get the buff. Which might not always happen.
Still, it works for all units in your army as it can trigger in both combat and shooting and it becomes more likely if your entire army is of that trait.
While it's not as good as mono deff skulls or clan soup, it's still better than any of the other clan runs when running a mono-clan army.
Eh, it depends. I find DeathSkullz work best if you have a lot of powerful, single shot weapons. So Rokkit Launchers, KMB, ect.If you have a lot of RoF assault weapons they don't work as well as you can only reroll 1 die and those weapons tend to be damage 1 too, so you're better off going Evil Sunz or Bad Moonz.
Bad moons only outperform deff skulls on weapons with 12 or more shots, as even for 1 damage weapons, you get a re-roll on both hit and wound. On units like scrapjets, dreads and nauts you even get to double-dip since you can get the re-rolls when shooting and when fighting.
So we are looking at lootas, shoota boyz, warbikers, tank bustas, dakkajets and some of the buggies where the re-roll ones really outperforms deff skulls double re-roll. The main reason to pick bad moons is Showin' Off since it turns 2 CP into 200+ points of shooting and multiplies with any other stratagems you drop that unit - and since you can only do that once, it's best done as part of a clan mix.
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Amorphium wrote: I just acquired my brother's ork models and as I'd like to get back into 40k (last played in 3rd ed), what are the must-buys (apart from boyz) at the start?
From the models I have I made a 1k points list, what did I forget or should add?
Warboss [4 PL, 72pts]: Ard as Nails, Attack Squig, Big Choppa, Kustom Shoota, Warlord
+ Troops +
Boyz [11 PL, 233pts] . Boss Nob: Choppa, Power Klaw
. Ork Boy W/ 'Eavy Weapon: Big Shoota
. Ork Boy W/ 'Eavy Weapon: Big Shoota
. 27x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa
Boyz [11 PL, 233pts] . Boss Nob: Choppa, Power Klaw
. Ork Boy W/ 'Eavy Weapon: Big Shoota
. Ork Boy W/ 'Eavy Weapon: Big Shoota
. 27x Ork Boy W/ Shoota
Gretchin [4 PL, 78pts] . 26x Gretchin
+ Elites +
Nobz [7 PL, 103pts] . Boss Nob: Choppa, Power Klaw
. Nob: Big Choppa, Choppa
. Nob: Big Choppa, Choppa
. Nob: Big Choppa, Choppa
. Nob: Big Choppa, Choppa
+ Fast Attack +
Warbikers [7 PL, 105pts] . Boss Nob: Choppa, Power Klaw
. 3x Warbiker: 3x Stikkbombs
+ Heavy Support +
Deff Dread [5 PL, 95pts] . Deff Dread: Big Shoota, Big Shoota, Dread Klaw, Dread Klaw
For 1000 points this is decent enough, just make sure to put your deff dread into the tellyporta for 2CP so it doesn't need to cross the board (and die in the process). Make sure your warboss gets the killa klaw relic, it's the difference between just scratching the paint and flipping a tank.
The list is made from models I currently have, I've read about a special shokk attack gun but couldn't find anything in the Kodex, which book do I need?
The souped-up shokka relic, along with the other ork specialist detachments can be found in Vigilus Defiant.
I was also sad to see that I can't really use my looted Leman Russ anymore, can I just play it as a Gunwagon or will people be confused?
I don't think anyone would give you trouble over running it as a gunwagon.
Any starter help is welcome
In general, orks rely on a very specific sets of tools to do well, players straying too far from those best practices tend to get curb-stomped my other armies.
1) Orks have one of the best collections of stratagems in the game, therefore you want to have as many CP as possible. You archive this by running minimal battalions, consisting of nothing but 3 units of 10 gretchin and two HQs. In general, gretchin = CP.
2) In order to survive, you need to be able to kill dangerous things as soon as possible, so you definitely need some shooting. SAGs (even multiple), dakkajets and wazbomm blastajets, lootas, tankbustas, mek guns and flash gits do well in this area. For starters, you should probably go for lootas, as they are the easiest to pilot out of the bunch - drop any damage increasing stratagems you have (More Dakka, Wreckers) on them and use a command point to re-roll the number of shots when you roll a one.
3) Boyz are primarily used by flinging them into your opponent using a weirdboy with da jump. By doing this you can have unit of boyz in your opponent's face turn one and force him to handle them instead of shooting your valuable stuff. Also make sure to use the Endless Green Tide stratagem to replenish your boyz. In general a weird boy with da jump is a very valuable asset, as he can get orks where you need them almost instantly, plus he can dish out some pretty mean smites and other buffs. I suggest not getting the official model (unless you manage to snag a metal version somewhere), but scratch-build one, get one of the AOS shamans or a third party model.
4) Have a look at the first post of this thread - I update it regularly and there are some tournament lists there for inspiration.
Thanks for all the tips I will try and get some games in with your recommendations in mind, still have to learn the new rules again.
I still have lots of Gorkamorka orks which I want to use, I guess have to rebase them as they still have the small Gorkamorka bases, where can I find out which base sizes are needed? I just had a quick look at the rulebook and couldn't find anything.
Yeah i had 1 guy give me crap for not resizing my ork boyz and i just told him to zog off.
For one, most of them have slits, so getting them off the base isnt exactly easy.
For another, rebasing well over 200 boyz is NOT CHEAP
If a TO wants to enforce the base size rules, thats up to them.
But it has been told by GW several times that it is optional to upsize a base. So im not doing it, ever, thats way too much work/monies
Amorphium wrote: ...I still have lots of Gorkamorka orks which I want to use, I guess have to rebase them as they still have the small Gorkamorka bases...
But I agree with others that they give you pretty much no rules advantage, and they fall over so often that they're just a pain, and they look weird enough that you'll get Cruel Sarcastic comments. Personally I'd rebase them, even though most Gorka Morka boyz are so puny that they'll look a bit lost on a 32mm base :(
A problem I’ve encountered over the past few months is if I go second and opponent sets up with basically three lines (starting from the back of the table):
1) some long range shooters or screening out units
2) general troops
3) some quicker or tougher units.
The opponent moves the middle units up to the edge of the deployment zone and the quicker/tougher units up about 5inches in front.
How do we get around this issue as Da Jump is basically nullified as well as deep striking boys as they are so far away from where they need to be.
Yes we can do our best to blast the front units in turn one and two with Lootas, Mek Gunz, Dakka Jets etc but a saavy player will always find a way to keep a model or unit in the way of deep striking and Da Jump.
Hammer and anvil causes the most issues as it is so narrow and easy to screen out.
Amorphium wrote: ...I still have lots of Gorkamorka orks which I want to use, I guess have to rebase them as they still have the small Gorkamorka bases...
But I agree with others that they give you pretty much no rules advantage, and they fall over so often that they're just a pain, and they look weird enough that you'll get Cruel Sarcastic comments. Personally I'd rebase them, even though most Gorka Morka boyz are so puny that they'll look a bit lost on a 32mm base :(
Yeah those, to be extra pedantic I would reply that GW usually only talks about 'citadel' miniatures, not 40k ones Thanks again everyone, the Waagh will start next week and I'm stoked!
Quick question (since y'all have probably encountered it).
For something like Da-souped up, for the command re-roll, am I allowed to reroll the whole STR test or # of shots? Or is it literally only a single die?
FAQ seemed a bit confusing to me when multiple die were thrown together as a single check of something (like it done for Psychic tests...)
FAQ is there for stuff like "You may reroll the charge distance" but it doesnt specify number of dice like 'Ere We Go does.
The stratagem to reroll is reroll a singular die. Since its specifically telling you ONE die, you only reroll one die even in a pairing roll like 2D6 Strength/Shots
Ended up having a match vs a 1501 point Biel-tan (he was messing around a bit) Eldar w/ Maelstrom. He conceded turn 4 after I was up 5 to 3 with a lot of board supremacy.
His list roughly included: 2 squads of Pathfinders, 1 squad of Striking scorpions, 1 squad of Banshees, 1 squad of Fire Dragons, a wave serpent, a Crimson Exarch (upgraded to bs 2+), the Avatar, Karandras, a couple of warlocks, a Guardian Squad, and a Farseer on Jetbike.
Turn 1: He moved up with his army. There was some forests in the middle blocking line of sight through it, other than with flyers. He aggressively moved his CHE forward, along with his wave serpent, to take out my traktor kannons. He failed to kill both with some bad damage rolls. Some grots died.
On my turn, I killed both the CHE and Wave Serpent with my mek guns and SSAG (My traktor kannons ironically failed to wound both times). My dakkajet moved forward and blew out his fire dragons, and I Jumped my boys to the back to harass his line. They killed a warlock. My buggy moved into position and shot down a few units. Grots moved forward and killed a few guardians. My biker boss also attempted to fight the avatar. He attacked and failed to do ANY damage. Avatar ate his face. I used my stratgem to fight again, and he did 4 wounds.
Turn 2: His striking scorpions appeared and absolutely DESTROYED my boy squad on the charge. It was insane. Avatar failed to his my Dakkajet w/ his Meltagun. Banshees charge forward and start making trouble in my line, attacking my weird boy and Shokk attack mek. Kill the weird boy, SSAG doesn't even get hurt.
On my turn, my Deff Dreads showed up in position to do some krumpin' on karandras, the Avatar, and any remaining scorpions in that area. I blow out most of the scorpions with my shooting. Deff Dread 1 charges Karandras, Avatar heroically intervenes (he was outside of 12" so I couldn't declare him a charge... although I used ramming speed). 2nd isn't in range and charges pathfinders. Deff Dread doesn't do much to Karandras and gets smashed. Shokk mek retreats. I tie up the banshees with some grots and a close by Mek gun so they can't tie up my SSAG. Grots heroically kill 1 banshee, hitting on 6s and wounding on 5s.
Turn 3: Avatar charges and destroys 2nd deff dread. He takes the middle.
I respond by retreating out of combat, wiping out the banshees. I blow up the avatar in glorious fashion.
Overall impressions:
First time trying Dakkajets and Buggy. Both are crazy good if they stick around 3 turns. Dakkajet hitting on 4s is just insane.
Screens are super important. I shouldn't have let my HQ be so vulnerable to a countercharge.
Deff Dreads are fun but are probably a bit underwhelming (although I may have just piloted them poorly).
As a player coming from 3rd/4th edition, I overestimate my Warbosses ability to krump. I think he needs psychic power boosting to be more reliable. Characters like the Avatar seem awkward to krump without certain kind of units (either shoot them, or you need specific things like a large squad of Nobs).
Just came back from a major ITC. Worst placing this year. 2 wins, 3 lost. The sky is falling, marines sucks. Eldar and drukhari are the only option. Or 3 discolord.
Thanks GW. The game sucks.
A problem I’ve encountered over the past few months is if I go second and opponent sets up with basically three lines (starting from the back of the table):
1) some long range shooters or screening out units
2) general troops
3) some quicker or tougher units.
The opponent moves the middle units up to the edge of the deployment zone and the quicker/tougher units up about 5inches in front.
How do we get around this issue as Da Jump is basically nullified as well as deep striking boys as they are so far away from where they need to be.
Yes we can do our best to blast the front units in turn one and two with Lootas, Mek Gunz, Dakka Jets etc but a saavy player will always find a way to keep a model or unit in the way of deep striking and Da Jump.
Hammer and anvil causes the most issues as it is so narrow and easy to screen out.
My recommendations:
1: Don't rely exclusively on Da Jump. keep it as an option but make plans for not needing to use it. If you can't move closer with da jump, they are generally close enough - just go for the charge and get some more distance.
2: Have some long-range stuff of your own. Eye up a position behind him which may be plugged by a single unit - meaning if you clear it, turn 2 you can jump into that space - and focus on that location to clear the space. Sometimes, players will set up with the plan of blocking, then forget to plug the holes. The stuff at the back probably has heavy weapons, too, so doesn't want to move.
3: Don't forget, Da Jump doesn't have to get you behind them. If he's lines up some thunderhammer/powerfist units to krump your vehicles, sling a line of Shootaboys across between the two. it's deployable screens as much as the standard "get behind and disrupt them!".
4: Deny him targets! The enemy might line up some perfect anti-horde firepower with your boys. Line the boys up, put dreads behind, let him deploy his anti-troop firepower in that "perfect spot", then turn 1 jump the Boys out of the way and leave the anti-chaff guns facing a wall of steel. Jumping sideways can be as useful as jumping forwards - it's not all about getting closer to the enemy, it's about getting further from the enemy which can kill you too! Pick your targets!
On another note, I'm contemplating running a biker-heavy list in my next game. I'm planning on playing the shooting game, so not fussed about having the deffkilla to let me advance and charge. I'm thinking bad moons for the rerolling 1's; with 6 shots per bike, that's effectively an extra shot each.
I know bikers are "sub par", so I need some stuff to support them for the game. My thoughts are:
Wazbom Blastajet; I'm making one at the moment, thinking a mobile KFF and some anti-tank guns will be very useful
Dakkajet - lots of firepower and fast, 360° firing arc will make them better than last edition!
Shootaboys and Weirdboys - jump onto objectives, massed dakka to use the badmoons abilities.
Lootas in supporting fire - again, badmoons works better with more dakka!
Haven't made a list as yet but the core will be 3 large units of bikers (I need to count them to be sure how many I have!), with other units filling in to make the points & battalion requirements.
With the badmoons trait, and the way you can never roll below 1, does this mean that if shooting something at -2 to hit, we would hit on 6's thanks to dakkax3, and reroll 1s, 2s and 3s (all of which are reduced to 1's)?
If so badmoons get better the more invisible the target is!
A problem I’ve encountered over the past few months is if I go second and opponent sets up with basically three lines (starting from the back of the table):
1) some long range shooters or screening out units
2) general troops
3) some quicker or tougher units.
The opponent moves the middle units up to the edge of the deployment zone and the quicker/tougher units up about 5inches in front.
How do we get around this issue as Da Jump is basically nullified as well as deep striking boys as they are so far away from where they need to be.
Yes we can do our best to blast the front units in turn one and two with Lootas, Mek Gunz, Dakka Jets etc but a saavy player will always find a way to keep a model or unit in the way of deep striking and Da Jump.
Hammer and anvil causes the most issues as it is so narrow and easy to screen out.
My recommendations:
1: Don't rely exclusively on Da Jump. keep it as an option but make plans for not needing to use it. If you can't move closer with da jump, they are generally close enough - just go for the charge and get some more distance.
2: Have some long-range stuff of your own. Eye up a position behind him which may be plugged by a single unit - meaning if you clear it, turn 2 you can jump into that space - and focus on that location to clear the space. Sometimes, players will set up with the plan of blocking, then forget to plug the holes. The stuff at the back probably has heavy weapons, too, so doesn't want to move.
3: Don't forget, Da Jump doesn't have to get you behind them. If he's lines up some thunderhammer/powerfist units to krump your vehicles, sling a line of Shootaboys across between the two. it's deployable screens as much as the standard "get behind and disrupt them!".
4: Deny him targets! The enemy might line up some perfect anti-horde firepower with your boys. Line the boys up, put dreads behind, let him deploy his anti-troop firepower in that "perfect spot", then turn 1 jump the Boys out of the way and leave the anti-chaff guns facing a wall of steel. Jumping sideways can be as useful as jumping forwards - it's not all about getting closer to the enemy, it's about getting further from the enemy which can kill you too! Pick your targets!
Good advice.
I'd like to add that you always need to keep in mind that units of boyz are worth 210+ points, so don't trow them away.
If there are no good targets to jump to, simply don't. Keep your boyz in you backfield to block deep strikes and movement for better times. Most good anti-infantry guns can't reach into your deployment zone or at least do so with reduced efficiency (rapid fire).
As the games goes on, holes will open up, either because your opponent needs to move in order to score points or because units get killed.
On another note, I'm contemplating running a biker-heavy list in my next game. I'm planning on playing the shooting game, so not fussed about having the deffkilla to let me advance and charge. I'm thinking bad moons for the rerolling 1's; with 6 shots per bike, that's effectively an extra shot each.
I know bikers are "sub par", so I need some stuff to support them for the game. My thoughts are:
Wazbom Blastajet; I'm making one at the moment, thinking a mobile KFF and some anti-tank guns will be very useful
Dakkajet - lots of firepower and fast, 360° firing arc will make them better than last edition!
Shootaboys and Weirdboys - jump onto objectives, massed dakka to use the badmoons abilities.
Lootas in supporting fire - again, badmoons works better with more dakka!
Haven't made a list as yet but the core will be 3 large units of bikers (I need to count them to be sure how many I have!), with other units filling in to make the points & battalion requirements.
With the badmoons trait, and the way you can never roll below 1, does this mean that if shooting something at -2 to hit, we would hit on 6's thanks to dakkax3, and reroll 1s, 2s and 3s (all of which are reduced to 1's)?
If so badmoons get better the more invisible the target is!
I don't think more than one unit of bikers are worth fielding. They heavily rely on stratagems to be efficient, and you can only protect/buff one at a time. S5 shooting without AP isn't that impressive.
Vineheart01 wrote: Yeah i had 1 guy give me crap for not resizing my ork boyz and i just told him to zog off.
For one, most of them have slits, so getting them off the base isnt exactly easy.
For another, rebasing well over 200 boyz is NOT CHEAP
Somebody is going to give me headache I have simple solution. I play as if they had 32mm bases. Measure everything. Going to take ages but hey I ain't the one insisting on it.
If I remember correctly, rerolls happen before modifiers to the die, so you'd still only he rerolling "natural" 1s. But, looking at the Kultur trait, it just says "reroll hit rolls of 1", so it could go either way, I suppose.
If you want some Biker support, and your local meta still allows Index options, a Painboy on Bike and Biker Mek with KFF are good choices. As Jid said, however, 3 units of Bikes ain't ideal. I'd replace the other two with some Buggies. I'm a fan of the Snazzwagon, since it has a built in -1 to hit, and it has enough shots that it can benefit from Badmoonz as well.
I love my warbikes, but yeah, don't waste your time with them in this edition unless its strictly a friendly game. 2 T5 wounds with a 4+ sounds durable until you remember that you basically won't get an armor save vs. most shooting and when you remember that last edition those warbikes were both cheaper and Jinxing for a 4+ cover save.
Plus, their shooting isn't that impressive to begin with. With Dakka and Rerolling 1s 6 shots on average is still less then 3 hits a turn. Add in the incredibly short range and its just not a good investment. If you can get in range of a target that means you are easily in double tap range for most armies the next turn and as mentioned, under fire, bikes melt.
flandarz wrote: If I remember correctly, rerolls happen before modifiers to the die, so you'd still only he rerolling "natural" 1s. But, looking at the Kultur trait, it just says "reroll hit rolls of 1", so it could go either way, I suppose.
Correct. Rerolls are BEFORE modifier. That's why if reroll says "failed" rolls you can't reroll that 3 if you have BS3+ and are at -1 so no rerolling and you still miss.
So you roll, pick up what rerolls you do according to what you can do and then after rerolls you add -1. So no rerolling 1, 2 and 3 with -2 to hit. By the time modifier is applied you have already rerolled all your dices.
Vineheart01 wrote: Yeah i had 1 guy give me crap for not resizing my ork boyz and i just told him to zog off.
For one, most of them have slits, so getting them off the base isnt exactly easy.
For another, rebasing well over 200 boyz is NOT CHEAP
Somebody is going to give me headache I have simple solution. I play as if they had 32mm bases. Measure everything. Going to take ages but hey I ain't the one insisting on it.
I totally disagree with you. Rebasing boys (or putting those ugly ass adaptors like i do because i can't be bothered to rebase 120 boys, 20 TB and 28 lootas) is a duty. Because it changes everything about the space you have on the board. If you play matched play games / relatively comp games
flandarz wrote: If I remember correctly, rerolls happen before modifiers to the die, so you'd still only he rerolling "natural" 1s. But, looking at the Kultur trait, it just says "reroll hit rolls of 1", so it could go either way, I suppose.
Correct. Rerolls are BEFORE modifier. That's why if reroll says "failed" rolls you can't reroll that 3 if you have BS3+ and are at -1 so no rerolling and you still miss.
So you roll, pick up what rerolls you do according to what you can do and then after rerolls you add -1. So no rerolling 1, 2 and 3 with -2 to hit. By the time modifier is applied you have already rerolled all your dices.
That's interesting, and feels very counter-intuitive. How can a roll be deemed to have failed before the modifiers are applied?
Vineheart01 wrote: Yeah i had 1 guy give me crap for not resizing my ork boyz and i just told him to zog off.
For one, most of them have slits, so getting them off the base isnt exactly easy.
For another, rebasing well over 200 boyz is NOT CHEAP
Somebody is going to give me headache I have simple solution. I play as if they had 32mm bases. Measure everything. Going to take ages but hey I ain't the one insisting on it.
I totally disagree with you. Rebasing boys (or putting those ugly ass adaptors like i do because i can't be bothered to rebase 120 boys, 20 TB and 28 lootas) is a duty. Because it changes everything about the space you have on the board. If you play matched play games / relatively comp games
Those models are build with the bases they were supplied with, some of them almost two decades ago. Re-basing over a hundred models does not just cost a lot of money, it's also ton of work to paint and do the base decoration, plus any extra base decoration is lost when doing so. Last, but not least, you'll damage a bunch of your models when removing the bases. All for a perceived advantage that has no impact on the outcome of most games.
No one forces other armies to rebase their terminators, obliterators, havocs, metal dreads, greater daemons, avatars and whatnot. I see no reason why orks should be treated any different.
Nothing in any current rule set forces you to re-base them, and any TO enforcing such a rule should be boycotted.
i imagine the old bases allow perhaps 1-2 more boyz to swing than normal.
Whooptiedoo...
And yeah i still see tons of termies on 28mm bases, because theyre just that old.
I have one squad of boyz on the new bases - it really doesn't matter at all. You are usually coming in from deep strike anyways, so you can't get all your boyz, if any, into combat, plus some boyz are busy arresting stuff.
The theoretical third row simply isn't happening unless you are charging into choke points - which you shouldn't.
realistically that should only be an issue for 20man boy squads.
Which isnt really a very good tactic right now anyway. When i put boyz in a wagon i put 2x10 so i can squeeze an extra rokkit, also forces my opponent to shoto them twice regardless of how much dakka they got when they pop out. 10 or 20, when shooting, makes 0 difference anyway. Except for "More Dakka' of course, but why the heck would ido that for boyz lol The one time i had my wagon blow up and couldnt put both units out, i said the squad that took the 5 explosion casualties didnt get out. So i only lost 5 instead of 15. Thats happened to me once in several games, since usually my wagon isnt surrounded.
Just about to build a Gorkanaut and I'd like to give it a field test next time I play.
From what I can tell, the the best way to use one is to Tellyporta it and have it charge on turn 2.
Is it worth trying to maximize its shooting potential, or just regard it as a bonus?
There are a couple implications here.
1) You want to make it the same faction as your Dread Waaagh! (so Bad moons or Deathskulls), so it can fire twice. This means it won't be Evil Suns, and you are probably forced to use Ramming Speed (in theory, you want to do this *regardless* because missing that charge might cost you the game).
2) You don't really give a crap about maxing its shooting, its just bonus fluff for the inevitable charge. If you field Evil Suns, it might be better as one (bonus charge, can advance to keep up if it needs to later).
I assume it's also basically not realistic to field it on turn 1? Seems like an absolute prime target if you don't go first.
Personally the Evil Sunz deepstrike charge mentality is more for MANz than Gorks, since you kinda want to do Ramming Speed regardless for the mortal wounds and it is insanely hard to fail a 9" charge on 3D6 with reroll any number of dice. That, or if you have multiple things tellyporting in, and thus wanna save the CP and/or fall victim to the once per phase preventing both units from Ramming Speeding the charge.
Its shooting is good but more of an afterthought. Same number of shots at same strength/ap/dmg as a dakkajet, but lacks the +1 to hit or mobility and is twice as expensive (yeah it has some bigshootas and rokkits too but that hardly justifies the 2x price in raw dakka alone). I'd probably use Kustom Ammo on it if i had nothing left for that strat, still had a few CP lying around, and i needed to clear troops out asap, but other than that i wouldnt bother. Deathskulls would benefit it more than BadMoonz, but it has enough RoF to justify Bad Moonz too.
Vineheart01 wrote: realistically that should only be an issue for 20man boy squads.
Which isnt really a very good tactic right now anyway. When i put boyz in a wagon i put 2x10 so i can squeeze an extra rokkit, also forces my opponent to shoto them twice regardless of how much dakka they got when they pop out.
10 or 20, when shooting, makes 0 difference anyway. Except for "More Dakka' of course, but why the heck would ido that for boyz lol The one time i had my wagon blow up and couldnt put both units out, i said the squad that took the 5 explosion casualties didnt get out. So i only lost 5 instead of 15. Thats happened to me once in several games, since usually my wagon isnt surrounded.
I’m pretty sure you have to disembark all models before rolling to see if any are removed as casualties following the destruction of a transport.
Vineheart01 wrote: Yeah i had 1 guy give me crap for not resizing my ork boyz and i just told him to zog off.
For one, most of them have slits, so getting them off the base isnt exactly easy.
For another, rebasing well over 200 boyz is NOT CHEAP
Somebody is going to give me headache I have simple solution. I play as if they had 32mm bases. Measure everything. Going to take ages but hey I ain't the one insisting on it.
I totally disagree with you. Rebasing boys (or putting those ugly ass adaptors like i do because i can't be bothered to rebase 120 boys, 20 TB and 28 lootas) is a duty. Because it changes everything about the space you have on the board. If you play matched play games / relatively comp games
Not according to gw. And difference is btw less than you think. Half a rank. And i rarely get all into combat anyway due to opponent being smart so end result would be same except i have less board control. So biggest effect will be game taking longer which suits orks just fine. So 32mm actually helps orks
But if somebody makes issue fine. I add 2.5mm spacing between models. Done. Your fault for not following offiaial rules making game slower.
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Nightlord1987 wrote: Boyz on 32s have a harder time disembarking from transports, even more so if theres terrain or a unit blocking the way.
The rebasing issue is one of the key reasons why I've shelved my Orks for the time being.
Good thing then 20 mob transport(only where that really comes into issue) is trash anyway then.
Vineheart01 wrote: Personally the Evil Sunz deepstrike charge mentality is more for MANz than Gorks, since you kinda want to do Ramming Speed regardless for the mortal wounds and it is insanely hard to fail a 9" charge on 3D6 with reroll any number of dice.
That, or if you have multiple things tellyporting in, and thus wanna save the CP and/or fall victim to the once per phase preventing both units from Ramming Speeding the charge.
Its shooting is good but more of an afterthought. Same number of shots at same strength/ap/dmg as a dakkajet, but lacks the +1 to hit or mobility and is twice as expensive (yeah it has some bigshootas and rokkits too but that hardly justifies the 2x price in raw dakka alone). I'd probably use Kustom Ammo on it if i had nothing left for that strat, still had a few CP lying around, and i needed to clear troops out asap, but other than that i wouldnt bother.
Deathskulls would benefit it more than BadMoonz, but it has enough RoF to justify Bad Moonz too.
Yeah, that was my impression as well -- Ramming Speed basically guarantees the charge without some trash rolling, and that mortal wound this is crazy powerful. If the Deffstorm was assault, I might see some argument for ES, but it's heavy, so no advance and shoot.
It is true, the Dakkajet is a lot more efficient for its points in terms of raw shooting (plus being able to get +1 BS is just too good for focus firing... last game I played, Dakkajet was the MVP). The shoot twice thing though, lets it output 36 str 6 ap -1 shots, and 24 str 5 ap 0 shots, as well as 2 rokkits -- that's actually not too bad
Deathskulls makes the thing better in CC too (re-roll to hit, wound, and damage if you use the crush mode) as well as gives it an invul save, which might swing a game if you're lucky. One thing to consider that Bad Moon gives you, though, is that your SSAG can use the Bad Moons stratagem, so both can fire twice in the same turn. But that's is just a busted amount of command points.
But yeah. 6 CP (Tellyporta, Ramming Speed, and Kustom Ammo) might simply be too CP expensive to be worth it.
As well, is the Mork really worth it comparatively? Seems like you want your anti-tank on other options, and I'd rather the stronger CC power. Doesn't seem to be all that good. Big KFF is nice I guess?
i think most ork players prefer the gork over the mork, but im the other way around. Could be because i play mono-badmoonz but i just like the heavy hitting guns it has, since i usually have plenty of anti-chaff.
Naut shooting does not degrade, its movement and melee does. Ive had my mork survive a round with 1-2 wounds and unleash a wrath of Kustom shots at who tried to kill him way too many times to count.
Plus, i like having ~3 KFFs around, so its another KFF.
Vineheart01 wrote: i think most ork players prefer the gork over the mork, but im the other way around. Could be because i play mono-badmoonz but i just like the heavy hitting guns it has, since i usually have plenty of anti-chaff.
Naut shooting does not degrade, its movement and melee does. Ive had my mork survive a round with 1-2 wounds and unleash a wrath of Kustom shots at who tried to kill him way too many times to count.
Plus, i like having ~3 KFFs around, so its another KFF.
Fair! Mork seems to *have* to be Bad Moons otherwise you're gonna melt your face off
I'll probably magnetize the model so I can try both out, as I'd like to just be able to mix it up for fun.
Mork is mostly worth it when you already have a gorkanaut or two. Huge kff is great and it's kustom mega Zappa makes it a good target for kustom ammo. Adds to your target saturation too.
I could see an argument being made.for running 2-3 gorks and leaning into other units for the utility and ranged AT that the Mork provides.
Eh Mork can get away with Deathskullz too since hes a lot more lethal in his individual shots that DO hit thanks to the wound/damage reroll. Yeah he gets zapped a few more times than as badmoonz, but not that many more times. Bad Moonz Mork i think i cause self damage once every other game, Death Skullz it happens 1-2 times every game for me, but he also tends to butcher whatever he hit more often.
Plus, really all thats going to be truly trying to threaten a gork/mork in melee probably has AP4+ weapons, so the 6++ helps there too. Most of what i encounter with my Mork in melee either lacks the strength to wound me very well but has AP3, or has the strenght but not the ap/damage. Then theres thunderhammers....ouch...
Quackzo wrote: Mork is mostly worth it when you already have a gorkanaut or two. Huge kff is great and it's kustom mega Zappa makes it a good target for kustom ammo. Adds to your target saturation too.
I could see an argument being made.for running 2-3 gorks and leaning into other units for the utility and ranged AT that the Mork provides.
2-3 Gorks PLUS a Mork? What the heck else you fielding? That's 900-1200 points.
But yeah, I wondered that too. Mork should deploy on the table turn 1. You need enough on the board to make them either regret focus firing your Mork, or force them to ignore it and make them pay.
Vineheart01 wrote:
Eh Mork can get away with Deathskullz too since hes a lot more lethal in his individual shots that DO hit thanks to the wound/damage reroll.
Yeah he gets zapped a few more times than as badmoonz, but not that many more times. Bad Moonz Mork i think i cause self damage once every other game, Death Skullz it happens 1-2 times every game for me, but he also tends to butcher whatever he hit more often.
Plus, really all thats going to be truly trying to threaten a gork/mork in melee probably has AP4+ weapons, so the 6++ helps there too. Most of what i encounter with my Mork in melee either lacks the strength to wound me very well but has AP3, or has the strenght but not the ap/damage.
Then theres thunderhammers....ouch...
I'm more of a fan of Deathskulls than Bad Moons anyway, so good note. I haven't played much with Lootas or Tankbustas just yet, which seem have to be Bad Moons because of the stratagem.
I'm still playing around trying to figure out the style I like most; I personally love the Dread models. I used to field Killa Kans back in 3rd/4th, but they were a lot better back then.
Vineheart01 wrote: Yeah i had 1 guy give me crap for not resizing my ork boyz and i just told him to zog off.
For one, most of them have slits, so getting them off the base isnt exactly easy.
For another, rebasing well over 200 boyz is NOT CHEAP
Somebody is going to give me headache I have simple solution. I play as if they had 32mm bases. Measure everything. Going to take ages but hey I ain't the one insisting on it.
I totally disagree with you. Rebasing boys (or putting those ugly ass adaptors like i do because i can't be bothered to rebase 120 boys, 20 TB and 28 lootas) is a duty. Because it changes everything about the space you have on the board. If you play matched play games / relatively comp games
I have 210+ Boyz, 45+ Kommandos, 60-70 Stormboyz, 35ish Lootas, 20 Tankbustas, 30 Nobz, 15 Burna's and a number of lesser HQ's like Mekz who came with the 28mm Base. GW, coming out years after the fact and "Suggesting" I change base size is annoying but fine. Random Tournament organizer or player demanding I re base 400+ models can go pound sand.
to be fair, i have a 2k list that is 3 morks 3 gorks a big mek and a weirdboy (because points). One mork doesnt have KFF, since it was kinda impossible to have 2 HQs with all 3 using a KFF. Not that i needed 3 KFFs for this anyway.
Its outright ridiculous and unrealistic to have that many nauts. But i still wanna do it one day lol. I have a printer so i may just print something for extra nauts, since not like i'd ever dream of doing that in a tourny lol.
@Sempermortis: any serious TO would just disqualify you. Orks with 25 mm bases are a much stronger army. Hence you would be modeling for advantage.
Even though you didn’t model anything. I know it is horrible to spend so much time rebasing stuff because suddenly GW said so. I totally understand why you would want to tell someone telling you to rebase to go take a hike.
addnid wrote: @Sempermortis: any serious TO would just disqualify you. Orks with 25 mm bases are a much stronger army. Hence you would be modeling for advantage.
Even though you didn’t model anything. I know it is horrible to spend so much time rebasing stuff because suddenly GW said so. I totally understand why you would want to tell someone telling you to rebase to go take a hike.
The guys have just laid out evidence to show that it makes very little difference to the overall strength of an ork army. Also GW has not said we must rebase, we are certainly not "modelling for advantage" by not going to the huge expense in time and resources to perform this, frankly ridiculously pedantic minor change.
Finally, saying that a TO would simply disqualify someone seems a bit deliberately inflammatory, and is more than likeky not the case. What are you trying to do here?
addnid wrote: @Sempermortis: any serious TO would just disqualify you.
That is a lie. Neither ETC nor ITC does not require anyone to re-base their boyz. Any TO disqualifiying your for your bases is not a serious TO.
Orks with 25 mm bases are a much stronger army.
Not true, as pointed out above. The advantages and disadvantages of larger bases cancel out each other at best, as you can also deny more area with them, need less models to conga-line and it's easier to tag additional units.
Hence you would be modeling for advantage.
Building a model according to its instruction manual is NOT modeling for advantage.
Even though you didn’t model anything. I know it is horrible to spend so much time rebasing stuff because suddenly GW said so.
Yet another lie. When asked, GW responded that there is no need to re-base 40k models.
I totally understand why you would want to tell someone telling you to rebase to go take a hike.
No, you don't. You are arbitrarily enforcing your standards on others. Until GW tells us otherwise, playing any citadel miniature on the base it was supplied with is fine, with no exception.
A TO judging otherwise might as well be randomly banning units he doesn't like to "improve" the game.
I think he may be referring to the difference between base size and the distance within which models can engage in close combat.
Earlier GW bases are _ 25mm _ diameter, not 28mm.
25mm < 1”, so in ideal conditions you can get four ranks in combat.
Re-basing is not required by GWafaik, but in the case of Gorka - Morka Orks I’d consider it, if only because they fall over too easily. Just mount them on MDF circles of whatever diameter suits. Or, be a ‘rebel’ and mount them on 20mm square Fantasy bases - I’ve got plenty spare
As for bikers, I have more success with Nob Bikers - the three wounds give durability vs two damage weapons. Still definitely lack lustre, though.
Reading up on the Vigilus Defiant detachment my eyes come across the Stompa mob. Everyone says it is rubish cause you need a full Super-heavy detachment with three super-heavies. But how certain are we about this and can't it be the auxil?
The text in the book says: "Pick an ORK Super-Heavy Detachment from your army". This almost hints at the posibilty of there being more then one possible Super-heavy detachment option. Nowhere doest it state that is should not be a Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment, which technically is also a S-H Detachment.
This might be subjective reading on my part, just would like to field a somewhat viable Stompa for once. Has it been ruled anywhere as definately the big S-H detachment, in a FAQ or somewhere else?
"Super-Heavy Detachment" is unmistakably the name of the detachment which requires at least 3 LoW.
A super-heavy aux is as much a super-heavy detachment as a supreme command is.
"An" merely refers to the possibility of having multiple super-heavy detachment in a very large battle.
So, sorry, unless you house-rule it, that is not an option.
Singleton Mosby wrote: Reading up on the Vigilus Defiant detachment my eyes come across the Stompa mob. Everyone says it is rubish cause you need a full Super-heavy detachment with three super-heavies. But how certain are we about this and can't it be the auxil?
The text in the book says: "Pick an ORK Super-Heavy Detachment from your army". This almost hints at the posibilty of there being more then one possible Super-heavy detachment option. Nowhere doest it state that is should not be a Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment, which technically is also a S-H Detachment.
This might be subjective reading on my part, just would like to field a somewhat viable Stompa for once. Has it been ruled anywhere as definately the big S-H detachment, in a FAQ or somewhere else?
think it's wishful thinking - the wording is such that if (for some reason) you have 2 superheavy detachments, you have to pick one of them.
Quackzo wrote: Mork is mostly worth it when you already have a gorkanaut or two. Huge kff is great and it's kustom mega Zappa makes it a good target for kustom ammo. Adds to your target saturation too.
I could see an argument being made.for running 2-3 gorks and leaning into other units for the utility and ranged AT that the Mork provides.
2-3 Gorks PLUS a Mork? What the heck else you fielding? That's 900-1200 points.
But yeah, I wondered that too. Mork should deploy on the table turn 1. You need enough on the board to make them either regret focus firing your Mork, or force them to ignore it and make them pay.
Oh I meant running either 2-3 gorks instead of 1-2 gork + 1 mork. Definitely want the mork on the table turn 1. If you have a gork or two it's worth deep striking to protect it and then using ramming speed turn 2 to get it stuck in.
If anyone is looking for a cheaper rebasing option to update your boyz, the adapter rings from Eccentric Miniatures are cheap ( $22 per 100 adapters) and work pretty well. I just finished using them on all of my AOBR ebay rescues and I'm pretty happy with the results. https://www.eccentricminiatures.com/retems0019.html
theres also the limiting factor of arms getting in the way for orks on the old bases.
Dunno bout you guys, but even my shoota boyz arent pressed up base-to-base when in combat, and my choppa boyz are even worse about it.
DrGiggles wrote: If anyone is looking for a cheaper rebasing option to update your boyz, the adapter rings from Eccentric Miniatures are cheap ( $22 per 100 adapters) and work pretty well. I just finished using them on all of my AOBR ebay rescues and I'm pretty happy with the results. https://www.eccentricminiatures.com/retems0019.html
Do those work well with models that have their feet extend over the edge of the base? I know the grey ones posted here recently (I think by tneva?) doesn't.
In any case, I'm not spending $84 on base extenders instead of buying two more buggies
Also keep in mind that tournaments with painting score will most likely knock down your score for using extenders, so it's not really an option if you aim to do good at those tournaments.
On another note, I'm in the process of finishing my last two buggies and will be running the buggy list I posted almost a year ago for the first time this month.
I'm really impressed with the models, the KBB, SJD, deffkilla and the snazzwagon all come in at the same quality and variety as the trukk kit - a blast to build, look awesome and someone more talented than me could probably go insane with conversions on these. If you are worried about having identical looking models, you can mix and match exhausts, tires, motors, amor plates and more of these kits (and the trukk kit) to make a ton of unique buggies, you'll just need to do some cutting on the gunner models as those are new style mono-pose models. Drivers should be less of an issue. Except the scrapjet, feth that model. At least it is very easy to paint and looks awesome.
DrGiggles wrote: If anyone is looking for a cheaper rebasing option to update your boyz, the adapter rings from Eccentric Miniatures are cheap ( $22 per 100 adapters) and work pretty well. I just finished using them on all of my AOBR ebay rescues and I'm pretty happy with the results. https://www.eccentricminiatures.com/retems0019.html
Do those work well with models that have their feet extend over the edge of the base? I know the grey ones posted here recently (I think by tneva?) doesn't.
In any case, I'm not spending $84 on base extenders instead of buying two more buggies
Also keep in mind that tournaments with painting score will most likely knock down your score for using extenders, so it's not really an option if you aim to do good at those tournaments.
On another note, I'm in the process of finishing my last two buggies and will be running the buggy list I posted almost a year ago for the first time this month.
I'm really impressed with the models, the KBB, SJD, deffkilla and the snazzwagon all come in at the same quality and variety as the trukk kit - a blast to build, look awesome and someone more talented than me could probably go insane with conversions on these. If you are worried about having identical looking models, you can mix and match exhausts, tires, motors, amor plates and more of these kits (and the trukk kit) to make a ton of unique buggies, you'll just need to do some cutting on the gunner models as those are new style mono-pose models. Drivers should be less of an issue.
Except the scrapjet, feth that model. At least it is very easy to paint and looks awesome.
I didn't have any problems with the feet that were sticking over the edges, if they were catching on the top lip of the extender though you could shave a little off the bottom of the foot and be okay.
For getting docked on basing, my ork army is based with sand and some static grass so gluing a bit more over the extender wasn't a big deal (not worried about the extender falling off since I used plastic glue to connect it to the base).
Excited to hear how your buggy list does, the models look great but I haven't picked any up yet since they just don't seem worth it points wise.
On another note, I'm in the process of finishing my last two buggies and will be running the buggy list I posted almost a year ago for the first time this month.
I'm really impressed with the models, the KBB, SJD, deffkilla and the snazzwagon all come in at the same quality and variety as the trukk kit - a blast to build, look awesome and someone more talented than me could probably go insane with conversions on these. If you are worried about having identical looking models, you can mix and match exhausts, tires, motors, amor plates and more of these kits (and the trukk kit) to make a ton of unique buggies, you'll just need to do some cutting on the gunner models as those are new style mono-pose models. Drivers should be less of an issue.
Except the scrapjet, feth that model. At least it is very easy to paint and looks awesome.
Funny. I am in the process of finishing up a buggy list for a tourney in three weeks. Will us the defkilla, 3x KBB, 4x Scrapjets and a SJD.
The Booomblastas were some work to get variety in. I build one from the snazzwagon and another has the tracks from a scrapjet. All of these have a full gretchin crew.....because all of my old buggies only had gretchin crew. Furthermore I messed around with random bits, guns (from a Bigg trakk), wheels and exhausts to give them their own identity. The scrapjets were easier. They are skimmers since I don't use the tracks and wheels on them. Instead I added more guns, rokkits, tailwings, boostas a prop etc. Wonderfull to mess around with.
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My full list below. Tell me what you guys think!
Spoiler:
Freebootaz Battalion:
HQ - SSAG + Badrukk
TR - 3x Gretchin
Elite - 10x Nobz with Kustom shoota (for 40 shots!) go in the Chinork
Heavy - Battlewagon with Deffrolla and Big shootas
Heavy - 8 Flashgitz
Heavy - 4x Smasha gun
Trans - Chinork Warkopta
Deffskull Outrider Detachment:
HQ - Wartrike
FA - Boosta Blasta
FA - Boosta Blasta
FA - Boosta Blasta
FA - 2x Scrapjet
FA - 2x Scrapjet
FA - Shokkjump Dragsta
So far I have had some success with the buggies. But that wasn't in a very competetive environment. I am not expecting to win a lot, just have a lot of fun.
not sure about the KBBs but i know the other two Deathskullz can make pretty lethal. And all around that 6++ is kinda mandatory. Buggies cost way too much to have a 4+ and 8/9 wounds.
edit: oh and question, you know buggies split up into their own units when they deploy right? thats the only reason i can think for you having multiple units that arent 3x strong (maxed out) is you forgot about that. You're just adding drops. Yeah they have to deploy near each other but i would see the Scrapjets wanting to flank individually, not the KBBs. KBBs dont have the range to do that.
Singleton Mosby wrote: Funny. I am in the process of finishing up a buggy list for a tourney in three weeks. Will us the defkilla, 3x KBB, 4x Scrapjets and a SJD.
The Booomblastas were some work to get variety in. I build one from the snazzwagon and another has the tracks from a scrapjet. All of these have a full gretchin crew.....because all of my old buggies only had gretchin crew. Furthermore I messed around with random bits, guns (from a Bigg trakk), wheels and exhausts to give them their own identity. The scrapjets were easier. They are skimmers since I don't use the tracks and wheels on them. Instead I added more guns, rokkits, tailwings, boostas a prop etc. Wonderfull to mess around with.
Yeah, I just use the snazzwagon as kustom bosta blasta. The armament is close enough, and there is really no point in fielding it otherwise.
As for the scrapjet, you can probably enhance it with all extra the bits from the ork bommers. You can also put the SJD wheels on it, but it looks really silly if you do
My full list below. Tell me what you guys think!
Spoiler:
Freebootaz Battalion:
HQ - SSAG + Badrukk
TR - 3x Gretchin
Elite - 10x Nobz with Kustom shoota (for 40 shots!) go in the Chinork
Heavy - Battlewagon with Deffrolla and Big shootas
Heavy - 8 Flashgitz
Heavy - 4x Smasha gun
Trans - Chinork Warkopta
Deffskull Outrider Detachment:
HQ - Wartrike
FA - Boosta Blasta
FA - Boosta Blasta
FA - Boosta Blasta
FA - 2x Scrapjet
FA - 2x Scrapjet
FA - Shokkjump Dragsta
So far I have had some success with the buggies. But that wasn't in a very competetive environment. I am not expecting to win a lot, just have a lot of fun.
Looks good, but no KFF? At the very least put one mek in there and use the stratagem to protect them T1. I'm going to run a Morkanaut and two KFF to keep my stuff safe, otherwise something like dreads or predators will have a field day blowing up your buggies.
. Trike means I have the kult of speed strats as well, so can double move. I'll see if I can fit dreads in my other detachment, though it's a relic 
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