Vineheart01 wrote: i think most ork players prefer the gork over the mork, but im the other way around. Could be because i play mono-badmoonz but i just like the heavy hitting guns it has, since i usually have plenty of anti-chaff.
Naut shooting does not degrade, its movement and melee does. Ive had my mork survive a round with 1-2 wounds and unleash a wrath of Kustom shots at who tried to kill him way too many times to count.
Plus, i like having ~3 KFFs around, so its another KFF.
I do prefer the mork overall. Load it with KFF for other units. I use my DS reroll on the ones from it's main gun for the most part. I'll also occasionally double fire it and cause DDD to trigger on 5+. It can melt many a vehicle an or monsterous creature. If there is a huge horde then I'll use the gork double fire and 5+ DDD to try and wipe them. 36 main gun shots, 2d6 flamer shots, 24 Big Shoota shots and 4 rokkits. all causing extra hits on 5+. I almost fully wiped a 40 man daemon unit in 1 go with this
the same goes for the mork and shooting large targets 6d3 S9 ap-4 d6 damage shots, 24 BS shots, 2 KMB shots, 4 rokkits.
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addnid wrote: @Sempermortis: any serious TO would just disqualify you. Orks with 25 mm bases are a much stronger army. Hence you would be modeling for advantage.
Even though you didn’t model anything. I know it is horrible to spend so much time rebasing stuff because suddenly GW said so. I totally understand why you would want to tell someone telling you to rebase to go take a hike.
This may go into the RAI and RAW argument but is there actually anything in the current rulebook that talks about modeling for advantage? I don't believe there is any longer and it's just a remnant from prior editions. Although a dick move to try anything sketchy to pull out a win.
The general idea is to fill the trukk with grots to tag stuff and t1 charge, meanwhile you advance with FG and DS with TB. and try to avoid to get any secondary maxed. Gang buster, big game hunter, butchers bill, reaper and headhunter should give out max 3 points as you can put avoid to have the KFF and weirboy in the open and the deffkilla is just gonna go back n forth in order to push the trukks and the meganobz. Beside the grot shield and the nuke grots the rest is way back field vs DS and GSC shenanigans. Terrain is important but I feel, after the last GT that I need to minimize the number of body in the open in the current meta.
addnid wrote: @Sempermortis: any serious TO would just disqualify you. Orks with 25 mm bases are a much stronger army. Hence you would be modeling for advantage.
Even though you didn’t model anything. I know it is horrible to spend so much time rebasing stuff because suddenly GW said so. I totally understand why you would want to tell someone telling you to rebase to go take a hike.
Nope. Difference is half a rank at most. Generally less if opponent has any brain cells during position.
And gw has not forced rebasing. Official rule is no need to rebase. Requirement to rebase is no more official as house rule saying ork boys are 20pts per model. If you claim official rule is they must be 32mm then you are flat out cheating. That's just house rule not even suggested by gw
Emicrania wrote: I was thinking about mixing up some of the strong list and I came up with a possible build. Feel free to comment in a constructive way.
The general idea is to fill the trukk with grots to tag stuff and t1 charge, meanwhile you advance with FG and DS with TB. and try to avoid to get any secondary maxed. Gang buster, big game hunter, butchers bill, reaper and headhunter should give out max 3 points as you can put avoid to have the KFF and weirboy in the open and the deffkilla is just gonna go back n forth in order to push the trukks and the meganobz. Beside the grot shield and the nuke grots the rest is way back field vs DS and GSC shenanigans. Terrain is important but I feel, after the last GT that I need to minimize the number of body in the open in the current meta.
Overall I like the list, though. Every time I see the purely static mek gun lists along w/ just a 120 boys, kind of feels really boring (I imagine that's fun to run once in a while, but not the most fun to pilot in week in and out). Most of this army is actually pretty maneuverable.
As a flexible option, maybe drop 1 Flash Git so you can fit them + Baddruk and ammo runt into a trukk (or drop baddruks ammo runt). Running your flash gits in the open might be fine in some games and not others, so you'll have that option open to you without too much loss of power.
I'm not sure how your Deffkilla is helping your MANz at all. It seems to be the weird part of this list, if it's just to help your trukks assault, I'm not sure that's worth it for that alone. He's apparently not good in assault like the Biker Boss from what I understand, so its not like he's going to do much as a counter charger either.
You could shift some stuff around so you could drop him, shift a weirdboy down there (since it doesn't really matter what clan they are), move a SAG to badmoons (it can fire twice then if you *really* need it too, then, which is not a bad pocket option). Should free up ~150ish points for something interesting. Or maybe take a walking Warboss as potential MANz support (or throw him in one of those trukks and get him up there after the MANzDS or Da Jump).
addnid wrote: @Sempermortis: any serious TO would just disqualify you. Orks with 25 mm bases are a much stronger army. Hence you would be modeling for advantage.
Even though you didn’t model anything. I know it is horrible to spend so much time rebasing stuff because suddenly GW said so. I totally understand why you would want to tell someone telling you to rebase to go take a hike.
Nope. Difference is half a rank at most. Generally less if opponent has any brain cells during position.
And gw has not forced rebasing. Official rule is no need to rebase. Requirement to rebase is no more official as house rule saying ork boys are 20pts per model. If you claim official rule is they must be 32mm then you are flat out cheating. That's just house rule not even suggested by gw
I rememebr playing with my 25 mm orks start of 8th and it was much much easier to get all 30 boyz into combat. half a rank xan make the difference between a dead target and a not dead target which is going to hit back in the close combat pjase. So huge difference.
As to 'force of rule', OK so let's forget about GW as they don't organise (many) tournaments. For ITC events can you go to a GT with 25 mm based orks ? I ask because I don't know it is all ETC where I live unfortunately. ETC for example has very specific guidelines, orks are 32 mm, and I would be very suprised if a player showing up at major ETC tournaments around Europe didn't get DQed with 25 mm based orks.
addnid wrote: @Sempermortis: any serious TO would just disqualify you. Orks with 25 mm bases are a much stronger army. Hence you would be modeling for advantage.
Even though you didn’t model anything. I know it is horrible to spend so much time rebasing stuff because suddenly GW said so. I totally understand why you would want to tell someone telling you to rebase to go take a hike.
Nope. Difference is half a rank at most. Generally less if opponent has any brain cells during position.
And gw has not forced rebasing. Official rule is no need to rebase. Requirement to rebase is no more official as house rule saying ork boys are 20pts per model. If you claim official rule is they must be 32mm then you are flat out cheating. That's just house rule not even suggested by gw
I rememebr playing with my 25 mm orks start of 8th and it was much much easier to get all 30 boyz into combat. half a rank xan make the difference between a dead target and a not dead target which is going to hit back in the close combat pjase. So huge difference.
As to 'force of rule', OK so let's forget about GW as they don't organise (many) tournaments. For ITC events can you go to a GT with 25 mm based orks ? I ask because I don't know it is all ETC where I live unfortunately. ETC for example has very specific guidelines, orks are 32 mm, and I would be very suprised if a player showing up at major ETC tournaments around Europe didn't get DQed with 25 mm based orks.
The orks kill by rolling dozens of dices. Losing 10 isn't going to make huge impact in most of the time. It's like more dakka stratagem for bikes. It sounds cool(I roll 36 shots with 6 bikes. I get more shots on 5+!) until you realize you actually just got 2 extra hits. Weee. Big deal. And it's very easy to ensure all 30 don't get to combat if you position right. And most of those who get would then get whether it's 25mm or 32mm.
ETC rules here btw and no disqualifications. And that's the official rule. And how you didn't bother to fix your obviously incorrect(one could even say deliberate lie) statement of "because GW suddenly said so" when GW has never ever NEVER said so? Their statement is still "models came with base it's still valid". GW isn't forcing anything.
If players are claiming then that's on players HOUSE RULES that is moving game away from how GW(you know the company that created the game) INTENDED the game to be played. Sure you can do so. But it's no more intended 40k as 40k where you house rules games to be 2 turn games.
Yeah you are both right (Jidmah and Tneva) . All the ork players who felt compelled to rebase are just fools then. In any case they look better on 32 mm bases, guess we can all agree on that at least ??????
Emicrania wrote: I was thinking about mixing up some of the strong list and I came up with a possible build. Feel free to comment in a constructive way.
The general idea is to fill the trukk with grots to tag stuff and t1 charge, meanwhile you advance with FG and DS with TB. and try to avoid to get any secondary maxed. Gang buster, big game hunter, butchers bill, reaper and headhunter should give out max 3 points as you can put avoid to have the KFF and weirboy in the open and the deffkilla is just gonna go back n forth in order to push the trukks and the meganobz. Beside the grot shield and the nuke grots the rest is way back field vs DS and GSC shenanigans. Terrain is important but I feel, after the last GT that I need to minimize the number of body in the open in the current meta.
Overall I like the list, though. Every time I see the purely static mek gun lists along w/ just a 120 boys, kind of feels really boring (I imagine that's fun to run once in a while, but not the most fun to pilot in week in and out). Most of this army is actually pretty maneuverable.
As a flexible option, maybe drop 1 Flash Git so you can fit them + Baddruk and ammo runt into a trukk (or drop baddruks ammo runt). Running your flash gits in the open might be fine in some games and not others, so you'll have that option open to you without too much loss of power.
I'm not sure how your Deffkilla is helping your MANz at all. It seems to be the weird part of this list, if it's just to help your trukks assault, I'm not sure that's worth it for that alone. He's apparently not good in assault like the Biker Boss from what I understand, so its not like he's going to do much as a counter charger either.
You could shift some stuff around so you could drop him, shift a weirdboy down there (since it doesn't really matter what clan they are), move a SAG to badmoons (it can fire twice then if you *really* need it too, then, which is not a bad pocket option). Should free up ~150ish points for something interesting. Or maybe take a walking Warboss as potential MANz support (or throw him in one of those trukks and get him up there after the MANzDS or Da Jump).
I completly missed that the Wartrike is only for veichle or bikes.... that is I still need to see the numbers on that SAG, @Jid weren´t you making a sheet or something about it? I still belive Deathskulls is better, but i might be wrong.
I really wanna use that T1 charges to clear or tag stuff thought
Wartrike has a lot of little nuances about it that make it feel so much weaker than it seems. In the end, its literally just for walkers/wagons to advance and charge. He is pathetic in every other aspect.
Massive footprint for an HQ (am i wrong in saying the largest HQ footprint?) Strenght/AP of melee is in this weird butterzone where its not outright disgusting against infantry, but pathetic against vehicles/monsters, and lacks the RoA to make up for either problems. Shooting is abysmally short and nigh impossible to actually get any meaningful impact with it. 4+ armor no built in invul coupled with his massive footprint = stupid easy to pick off once he starts melee'ing Lacks the warboss Breakin' 'Eads or Keepin' Order rule (whichever it is bosses have i always forget)
I wish those shotguns were considered Pistols given their ridiculously short range and that stratagem to do mortals on retreat should be a built-in rule and work when the ENEMY backs off, not you. That would make him considerably better.
Vineheart01 wrote: Wartrike has a lot of little nuances about it that make it feel so much weaker than it seems.
In the end, its literally just for walkers/wagons to advance and charge. He is pathetic in every other aspect.
Massive footprint for an HQ (am i wrong in saying the largest HQ footprint?)
Strenght/AP of melee is in this weird butterzone where its not outright disgusting against infantry, but pathetic against vehicles/monsters, and lacks the RoA to make up for either problems.
Shooting is abysmally short and nigh impossible to actually get any meaningful impact with it.
4+ armor no built in invul coupled with his massive footprint = stupid easy to pick off once he starts melee'ing
Lacks the warboss Breakin' 'Eads or Keepin' Order rule (whichever it is bosses have i always forget)
I wish those shotguns were considered Pistols given their ridiculously short range and that stratagem to do mortals on retreat should be a built-in rule and work when the ENEMY backs off, not you. That would make him considerably better.
I completly missed that the Wartrike is only for veichle or bikes.... that is I still need to see the numbers on that SAG, @Jid weren´t you making a sheet or something about it? I still belive Deathskulls is better, but i might be wrong.
I really wanna use that T1 charges to clear or tag stuff thought
I totally think a regular SAG is way better as a Deathskull than a Bad Moon, but if you wanted to NOT take another HQ with your options, that was the way of doing it, as the SAG is fine as a Bad Moon (potential re-roll and can shoot twice if you feel so inclined). If you're going to take another HQ option then just stick with your DSSAG.
If you do as I suggest (drop a Flash Git as well as the Wartrike which you seem to be dropping), you actually have a metric ton of options to take with the 154 points you save. Close for a Bonebreaker for the MANz if you wanted (5 points off), Dakkajet, Close to another 5 man MANz squad, etc, etc.
Deathskullz were better shooters than Bad Moonz with weapons less than 12 RoF. And that math skews even more if random damage is involved.
SAG is generally best as Deathskullz but it wont be a waste of time as Bad Moonz either.
Out of curiosity, what do people here think will be changed when the CA arrives?
It seems like the Ork codex actually is *pretty* good, but a lot of units are probably just a bit overcosted (or in Smasha Guns case, horribly undercosted). With a few point adjustments, I think it might open up a world of more interesting competitive lists.
Personally hoping Flash Gits and MANz get a point drop, to be more in line with what we say in Space Marines.
Big Mek needs to, as it's absolutely terrible for what you get just to get a KFF that can't even really keep up with your infantry.
Boyz might arguably need a 1 point drop, but that might be too much. Big Shootas and Rokkits and Kombi-weapons should be cheaper to add on, while making Tankbustas more expensive at base cost (they are potentially fine where they are).
Gork and Mork are great rules wise, but probably cost too much for what you get. Stompa is a joke. Two Knights or a Stompa? Not even a contest...
Emicrania wrote: I still need to see the numbers on that SAG, @Jid weren´t you making a sheet or something about it? I still belive Deathskulls is better, but i might be wrong.
I really wanna use that T1 charges to clear or tag stuff thought
That math is way beyond the capabilities of a spread sheet or a simple script, since you have a gigantic amount of possibilities as you need all possible hit/wound/save/damage combinations summed up for each shot (2-12), with wounding depending on random strength and damage on additional MW rolls. Just displaying all the combinations in a command line takes about one minute.
I have some code finished, but the part adding up the probabilities for each outcome is bugged and hell to debug. So don't wait for me to finish it, but I can provide the source code (C#) if someone wants to pick it up.
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tulun wrote: Out of curiosity, what do people here think will be changed when the CA arrives?
It seems like the Ork codex actually is *pretty* good, but a lot of units are probably just a bit overcosted (or in Smasha Guns case, horribly undercosted). With a few point adjustments, I think it might open up a world of more interesting competitive lists.
Personally hoping Flash Gits and MANz get a point drop, to be more in line with what we say in Space Marines.
Big Mek needs to, as it's absolutely terrible for what you get just to get a KFF that can't even really keep up with your infantry.
Boyz might arguably need a 1 point drop, but that might be too much. Big Shootas and Rokkits and Kombi-weapons should be cheaper to add on, while making Tankbustas more expensive at base cost (they are potentially fine where they are).
Gork and Mork are great rules wise, but probably cost too much for what you get. Stompa is a joke. Two Knights or a Stompa? Not even a contest...
Other stuff like Bikes seem to be way too pricey.
Smashas will probably go up, almost every other ork top list is running 12+ of them, wazbomm hopefully gets a point drop to compensate.
I doubt boyz will change, most armies run 2-3 mobs of them, that seems pretty healthy balance to gretchin. GW is also kind of stubborn on horde troop prices.
Flash gits and MANz could use a point drop, but might not get one. MANz will probably get cheaper when the PK joins the PF at 9 points.
I'm fairly sure GW will make buggies cheaper, I doubt they haven't noticed that none of their new models are seeing tournament play. This could be done by dropping both big shootas and rokkits in price, as those are found on all of the buggies.
Outside of that, we have plenty of units that direly could use point drops: warbikers, nob bikers, koptas, kanz, bommers, trukks, battlewagons, MA big mek, pain boy and, of course, the stompa. Whether they get them though, no one can tell.
As was discussed several pages ago, the issue isnt the weapon its the fact that you can get 10+ semi-tough, long range vehicles for so dang cheap. Theyre disproportionally durable for the cost. Either mekgun goes up in price (while smasha either drops or remains the same) or they drop the limit per slot to say 2-3 instead of 6.
I only have 1 mekgun as i havnt gotten around to printing or kitbashing beyond the official model i own. I can tell you, a single mekgun does jack diddly squat lol
I suspect the FA slots to all drop in points, with the only possible exception being stormboyz but even they could use it. And of course, stompa go down, but probably wont go down enough to bother. Killakanz could use help but i think they need rules, not points adjustments, so i dont expect much for them if anything.
Rest of the codex is pretty solid imo. Not perfect but its never gonna be perfect, even the Admech have units they dont wanna use and theyre probably the closest to a "all units are viable" codex out there.
Smashas will probably go up, almost every other ork top list is running 12+ of them, wazbomm hopefully gets a point drop to compensate.
I doubt boyz will change, most armies run 2-3 mobs of them, that seems pretty healthy balance to gretchin. GW is also kind of stubborn on horde troop prices.
Flash gits and MANz could use a point drop, but might not get one. MANz will probably get cheaper when the PK joins the PF at 9 points.
I'm fairly sure GW will make buggies cheaper, I doubt they haven't noticed that none of their new models are seeing tournament play. This could be done by dropping both big shootas and rokkits in price, as those are found on all of the buggies.
Outside of that, we have plenty of units that direly could use point drops: warbikers, nob bikers, koptas, kanz, bommers, trukks, battlewagons, MA big mek, pain boy and, of course, the stompa. Whether they get them though, no one can tell.
I just tried out my Megatrakk -- I think it's great, but probably doesn't show up in competition because it's just not aggressively pointed enough. I will continue to throw mine in in more casual games no problem.
flandarz wrote:
Burna Boyz REALLY need a point drop. Or Burnas need a 2" increase in range. One of the two.
Yeah, they are basically untakeable as is. You could throw them in a trukk I guess and maybe hope for the best...
Vineheart01 wrote:
i'm hoping the Mekgun goes up, not Smasha.
As was discussed several pages ago, the issue isnt the weapon its the fact that you can get 10+ semi-tough, long range vehicles for so dang cheap.
Theyre disproportionally durable for the cost. Either mekgun goes up in price (while smasha either drops or remains the same) or they drop the limit per slot to say 2-3 instead of 6.
I only have 1 mekgun as i havnt gotten around to printing or kitbashing beyond the official model i own. I can tell you, a single mekgun does jack diddly squat lol
I suspect the FA slots to all drop in points, with the only possible exception being stormboyz but even they could use it. And of course, stompa go down, but probably wont go down enough to bother.
Killakanz could use help but i think they need rules, not points adjustments, so i dont expect much for them if anything.
Rest of the codex is pretty solid imo. Not perfect but its never gonna be perfect, even the Admech have units they dont wanna use and theyre probably the closest to a "all units are viable" codex out there.
Yeah, I think I agree. A full squad of Smashas is just absurd in terms of durability per point. And its tough because its also one of the easiest ways to improve your lists anti-tank / anti-Terminator armour. Dropping under 200 points for a full squad is such an easy way to fill your list out even if you're trying something janky.
On some further thought, I think the Orks have an HQ problem, to be honest, which goes a bit beyond points. SAGs and Weirdboys are good, but the Warboss is a bit lacklustre without the relic klaw.
If you are locked out of index options, walking is kind gakky too. Biker boss can at least redeploy, countercharge, and easily keep up with deepstrikers and Da Jump. Walker boss is kind of just stuck with your initial blob.
Only being able to take an overcosted MA Big Mek w/ KFF is crappy, as its not good in combat, nor can it keep up with your infantry, and it's pushing on double the points of the old Index option.
I hope they bring back some of the model line (a MA Warboss would be *great*. Give me a more survivable Warboss that has the same movement as Ghazzy, and maybe it could take a punch). Biker version too, considering Forgeworld made a really nice model for it.
Deffkilla Wartrike probably needs to be cheaper *and* be able to take the relic klaw. It's an anomaly.
I think part of the issue is that the Warboss doesn't really hit hard, nor are they survivable tbh when compared to other combat-oriented HQ's. Outside of the Killa Klaw relic, you almost never want another Warboss which I find somewhat baffling, as their utility is very niche for their morale ability (most Ork units will be out of range if they have to take it, or are already effectively dead by the point they have to take morale), and the advance and charge, while useful, only really applies to the Biker Boss variant since he can keep up with the units that need it. They're kind of in a weird role where the Killa Klaw more or less defines their usefulness in a list, especially in terms of using them stratagem-wise as a suicide missile. I feel like if they gave buffs more similar to Ghazzy or were less middle of the road as a killy or survivable unit (baseline versus being relic oriented) that they would play more of a central role in the Ork army. Even making so they can take a "Boss Klaw", which has no negative to hit, or having Cybork body as a baseline rule for a 5+ invuln. would make them more palatable.
Grimskul wrote: I think part of the issue is that the Warboss doesn't really hit hard, nor are they survivable tbh when compared to other combat-oriented HQ's. Outside of the Killa Klaw relic, you almost never want another Warboss which I find somewhat baffling, as their utility is very niche for their morale ability (most Ork units will be out of range if they have to take it, or are already effectively dead by the point they have to take morale), and the advance and charge, while useful, only really applies to the Biker Boss variant since he can keep up with the units that need it. They're kind of in a weird role where the Killa Klaw more or less defines their usefulness in a list, especially in terms of using them stratagem-wise as a suicide missile. I feel like if they gave buffs more similar to Ghazzy or were less middle of the road as a killy or survivable unit (baseline versus being relic oriented) that they would play more of a central role in the Ork army. Even making so they can take a "Boss Klaw", which has no negative to hit, or having Cybork body as a baseline rule for a 5+ invuln. would make them more palatable.
Yeah, even if the Boss Biker is relegated to Legends, as long as I can legally take him with his current gear / abilities, I would probably never, ever take a walking boss, even if the biker went up in points 20-30%. Walking boss just seems fundamentally useless by contrast, and I'd probably never field one as is unless I'm just screwin' around.
Yes orks have a massive HQ problem, and its two-fold
1) The loss (or rather, index only and thus didnt get new shiny treatments in the codex) of our 2 most commonly used HQs and the ultimate iconic one: Big Mek (both foot/bike), Boss on Bike, and MegaBoss. MegaBoss is more of an iconic figure, da biggest n da baddest ork of dem all haz da shiniest armour...after all. Losing the other two was a big slap in the zoggin' face. I get WHY they removed them, but given orks for the longest time has been a kitbashing army...you kinda shouldnt remove all the "kitbash only"units without giving us a replacement... The only one that severely pisses me off is loss of footmek w/ kff. There IS an official GW model for that, i dont care if its "discontinued" the zoggin' thing still exists and doesnt look like a remnant of Gorkamorka either.
2) As mentioned, bosses dont hit hard. I actually have stopped using bosses all together, theyre that sad right now. Something only ~30pts less than a Space Marine Captain is inferior in every single way except raw toughness/wounds (not that it matters he has more wounds), even his mere presence doesnt have that big of an impact while the SM captain does. Warbosses need a complete overhaul, but thats not something i'd expect in a CA.
Its pretty sad when some armies, even armies that arent elitists, have HQs that are just awesome to have around and then other armies like orks/admech are generally spamming whatever the cheapest one is because they really dont do much. Only 2 ork HQs i get proper milage out of is Badruck and SSAG Mek. Weirdboyz only if i have big blobs of boyz to jump, which i usually dont as i play mechanized.
Good points have been made. Fast attack section needs point drops across the board. I think this would also open up some competitive builds. I'm addition if fast attack slots become more effective the deffkilla also becomes better as his ability helps those units.
I also wish they would do something to adjust the weaker kulturs. When was the last time blood axes were even mentioned. The only thing I've seen is the possible use of Snikrot. The blood axe Kultur needs to be 12" or just changed completely .
Its pretty sad when some armies, even armies that arent elitists, have HQs that are just awesome to have around and then other armies like orks/admech are generally spamming whatever the cheapest one is because they really dont do much.
Only 2 ork HQs i get proper milage out of is Badruck and SSAG Mek. Weirdboyz only if i have big blobs of boyz to jump, which i usually dont as i play mechanized.
The guy I play with most plays Eldar (in a not hardcore fashion, so it's actually fun). He's always mixing up cool combos because of Eldar character choices (scorpions that explode 3 times per 6, buffing up Wraithguard so they have 4++ saves, etc, etc).
I kind of feel like our lack of interesting HQs makes this kind of stuff impossible. Even if I can't do that kind of stuff, at least let my HQs be buildable to be badass, or incredibly good at support, or something. Always just feels like placeholders to the more interesting parts of the list.
Smash captain was exactly what I was thinking. For just a few more points, you get an insane badass that can fly and be a threat for multiple turns, that also has a useful aura, and that can take a punch.
russellmoo wrote:
Good points have been made. Fast attack section needs point drops across the board. I think this would also open up some competitive builds. I'm addition if fast attack slots become more effective the deffkilla also becomes better as his ability helps those units.
I also wish they would do something to adjust the weaker kulturs. When was the last time blood axes were even mentioned. The only thing I've seen is the possible use of Snikrot. The blood axe Kultur needs to be 12" or just changed completely .
Not sure if they would deal with the Kultur issue in a CA. It's nice that at least 4/7 of the Kulturs are viable and playable, as opposed to other races which are pigeonholed into one.
If blood axes were -1 hit instead outside of 12", would this make it viable? And maybe make it not apply to vehicles or give them a different bonus? (Let's not have -2 to hit Dakkajets...)
Snakebites also seems to be completely useless. I'd rather an army wide 6++ that gives me a bundle of re-rolls, thanks. I have no idea how they'd fix this without a total rework.
I dunno how you'd fix Goffs, either. It's not even *terrible*, its just competing against way better options. More attacks in CC isn't really the issue I have found (if my 30 boys make it, that's going to be enough unless I'm fighting something they can't really kill anyway. Similar to stuff like Nobs / MA Nobz. If I really need more attacks, I'll take Warpath).
Seems like any unit that I might wanna take as a Goff I'd probably just take as an Evil Sun instead.
Goffs just excel at something orks already excel at. My Bad Moonz swing in melee hard enough as it is, why would i want the Goff trait? Im not really sure what you could do with Goff to prevent them from being relegated to "green tide S5 boyz"
Deathskullz just confuse me. I dont understand why they gave them so many things and then snakebites JUST got a 6+++ - uh, large majority of the time we dont get a save period so a 6++ on top of many offensive rerolls is just way better. Not to mention the infantry getting Zog Off, not just troops. Snakebites probably need a bonus to wound. Yaknow, snakes, poison n all that. Would be unique since no ork gets bonuses to wound, closest is that single reroll on deathskullz.
Blood Axes really should be -1 to hit outside 12, heck even that new SM variant of "in cover outside 12 if in the open, -1 to hit if in cover and outside 12" would be better. 18" for +1 save on a low-save army in the first place and no other perks? thats pretty lame. And the psuedo fall-back and still shoot/charge is pointless for orks. Dunno bout you guys but i never, EVER, get stuck in combat more than 2 rounds of fighting. Someone either leaves or gets wiped.
Evil Sunz is .. fine... but not in a fluffy way. The bonus to movement is ironically completely useless on all the actual speedy gitz but outright bonkers on the uber slow crap like MANz. But thats the issue....how the heck would you "fix" that so theyre gameplay matches fluff and doesnt somehow radically help the slow-gitz to the point where you'd rather run slow gitz with red paint than fast-gitz with red paint lol.
Burna Boyz could be priced at the same cost as Boyz and I'd still have to give it serious thought if I wanted to take them. Having auto-hit guns is good and all, but if you never get close enough to use them, what's the point? Even in a Trukk or BW, you're not always guaranteed to get them in place before the Transport gets popped and they're stuck in no-man's land.
addnid wrote: Yeah you are both right (Jidmah and Tneva) . All the ork players who felt compelled to rebase are just fools then. In any case they look better on 32 mm bases, guess we can all agree on that at least ??????
Nobody says you CAN'T rebase. Just that the official rule is it's optional.
There's difference between "must rebase" and "can rebase"(or "may rebase"). Difference can be seen in definitions of "must" and "can"(or "may").
flandarz wrote: Burna Boyz REALLY need a point drop. Or Burnas need a 2" increase in range. One of the two.
I wouldn't take them before they drop below 7 points though... The unit is fundamentally flawed, points are not going to fix that.
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Vineheart01 wrote: The only one that severely pisses me off is loss of footmek w/ kff. There IS an official GW model for that, i dont care if its "discontinued" the zoggin' thing still exists and doesnt look like a remnant of Gorkamorka either.
Random knowledge: I did some digging as to why the KFF mek disappeared, and it appears finecast is to blame. The KFF backpack didn't work out in finecast, and was usually bent completely out of shape when they tried to get it out of the mold (I remember seeing six blisters, all bent like that). GW had to replace over 80% of all finecast KFF meks they sold, and thus decided to that it's simply not worth the trouble.
Evil Sunz is .. fine... but not in a fluffy way. The bonus to movement is ironically completely useless on all the actual speedy gitz but outright bonkers on the uber slow crap like MANz. But thats the issue....how the heck would you "fix" that so theyre gameplay matches fluff and doesnt somehow radically help the slow-gitz to the point where you'd rather run slow gitz with red paint than fast-gitz with red paint lol.
I suppose one could keep the bonus to charge for everything, but the advance and movement speed bonuses are only applied to vehicles and speed freaks, with speed freaks getting the usual +2.
But yeah, it is odd how the speedy faction is best used with mass infantry, and the primitive / hoard faction is best used with vehicles. GW didn't really think it through.
You can't even combine the Snake Bite trait with painboys, as they don't stack. Taking a painboy in a snakebite army is pointless, and that's not a good thing.
Snake Bites should have been 6+++ on infantry, beasts and monsters only, which may be increased to 5+++ with painboyz.
I think it might be a fun quirk if the snake bite trait also worked on gretchin. You know what might be nice have in an Ork codex? Squig units and cousins, like what you got WHFB. Like, squig hoppers ridden by grots, squig herds, young squiggoths, that sort of thing. Such units would go well with a snakebite army thematically, especially if their trait was removed from vehicles.
Random knowledge: I did some digging as to why the KFF mek disappeared, and it appears finecast is to blame. The KFF backpack didn't work out in finecast, and was usually bent completely out of shape when they tried to get it out of the mold (I remember seeing six blisters, all bent like that). GW had to replace over 80% of all finecast KFF meks they sold, and thus decided to that it's simply not worth the trouble.
Once again, Finecast has shown to be an absolute blunder and bad for the hobby as a whole. I suspect finecast was also instrumental in WHFB's death, as there were a lot of fantasy units that were in finecast.
Typical of GW to just give up instead of doing a proper job and releasing the big mek in a proper material though. I mean, they did it with the SAG, right? So what's wrong with just taking that kit, making a plastic backpack and arm options?
tulun wrote: If blood axes were -1 hit instead outside of 12", would this make it viable? And maybe make it not apply to vehicles or give them a different bonus? (Let's not have -2 to hit Dakkajets...)
Both Raven Guard and Jormungandr both have nice implementations of that rule, either would also match blood axes well.
The issue is not that cover sucks, but that orks are rarely out of 18" from their enemy. Few guns have more than 24" range and lots of units simply want to be in combat. The other part of the trait is mostly useless but nice to have, kind of like advance rule for evil suns or the objective secured on deff skulls. Some additional buff like giving +1 to wound against models in cover(kommandoz ability) would also be nice.
The warlord trait compares poorly to the +1 CP from "Follow Me, Ladz!", and should provide some further bonus that matches the kunnin' plan described in its fluff. Having the warboss gain a re-roll ones aura would catapult blood axes right back into playable territory.
Relic is fine.
Bloodaxe stratagem is basically "can deep strike characters for 1 CP less". The CP limit should go and all infantry can be hidden for 1 CP. Giving orks scout (deploy outside 9") would be way to powerful.
Snakebites also seems to be completely useless. I'd rather an army wide 6++ that gives me a bundle of re-rolls, thanks. I have no idea how they'd fix this without a total rework.
Sakebites are odd in that the trait is not bad, the relic is not bad, the stratagem is not bad, and the warlord trait has it's uses, but the whole package doesn't actually create something that can compete with the other clans.
So my first suggestion would be to just have the clan trait stack with other sources of FNP, making Snakebite pain boyz better than all others (like in the fluff). Rolling 5+ is also less of a waste of time than 6+ is, it's also better for infantry than it is for vehicles. You could also throw in that SNAKEBITE GRETCHIN can be affected by stratagems, to push the gretchin theme and create a niche where you'd want snakebites over deff skulls.
In addition, remove the re-roll morale from the warlord trait (nobody needs that) and replace it with something useful.
I dunno how you'd fix Goffs, either. It's not even *terrible*, its just competing against way better options. More attacks in CC isn't really the issue I have found (if my 30 boys make it, that's going to be enough unless I'm fighting something they can't really kill anyway. Similar to stuff like Nobs / MA Nobz. If I really need more attacks, I'll take Warpath).
Seems like any unit that I might wanna take as a Goff I'd probably just take as an Evil Sun instead.
I have given Goff a spin recently, and the models that benefit most from the Goff traits are those which hit really hard - Thrakka, nobz, deff dreads, deff rollas and nauts. Boyz with banner nobz also become insane, as they usually end up with more hits than they had attacks.
If you were able to simply cross the board and smack stuff with your klaws, goff would be decent enough, as the additional attacks are actually very meaningful since they hit on 2+ or 3+, unlike your dakka³ attacks, but right now you need to spend all energy on getting there, which evil suns simply do better.
So goff basically suffer from a general problem in the game, the only way to make them compete would be to not make them about close combat, which is not very goff at all. OR you make Thrakka (and Zagstrukk) powerful enough so people would bring goff just for them - basically the Ultramarine effect.
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CthuluIsSpy wrote: Typical of GW to just give up instead of doing a proper job and releasing the big mek in a proper material though. I mean, they did it with the SAG, right? So what's wrong with just taking that kit, making a plastic backpack and arm options?
I believe that's how the big mek ended up in the MANz box. I don't think I have ever seen a MA big mek before that, let alone have someone ask for it.
Funnily enough, it would probably help goffs if 'ard boyz were a codex upgrade rather than a stratagem. Then your boyz might survive getting into combat. It would also be more fluffy, because you'd think the goffs would be into heavy infantry.
I really don't like unit upgrade stratagems. I think its a gakky concept that needs to die. Free stats are not healthy, and I don't see how those are any better than free rhinos.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Typical of GW to just give up instead of doing a proper job and releasing the big mek in a proper material though. I mean, they did it with the SAG, right? So what's wrong with just taking that kit, making a plastic backpack and arm options?
I believe that's how the big mek ended up in the MANz box. I don't think I have ever seen a MA big mek before that, let alone have someone ask for it.
That's backwards. If they were going to put a HQ in the MANz set they should have put in a MA Warboss.
Has anyone run multiple SAG's? I've knocked up a list which uses a brigade for the extra CP (I was running a lot of stuff anyway so it filled it nicely) and threw 3 SAG meks in for fire support, one of which is the SSAG. I'm thinking that 2 SAG's is better than 1 SSAG, as they have to roll strength for each D6 of shots, and can split their fire if they need to (EG first one rolls lucky). I'm running a fast shooty list, in theory, using bad moons. SSAG will have the +1 to wound vehicles trait, so it'll still be the best.
at 2K I've got 14 lootas and 3 SAG meks for covering fire, I think that will do reasonably well. I'll post my whole list when I get the chance - it's built around my theory that 7 is the ideal number for elite units to be (it's worked really well in the past for me!).
I think Vine runs multi-SAGs, but from my experience they do alright. Just as swingy as you'd think they'd be though. Lots of times they'll either slam opponents hard, or they'll whiff and do nothing.
The Klan Kultur debate has been brought up before and basically it boils down to these changes being made:
Goff units gain +1S, Skarboyz gain AP-1 to their attacks (stacks with weapons like PK or Big Choppa). Makes them premier assault units without redundancy like extra attacks.
Snakebites keep the 6++ save, but that gets buffed to a 5++ when in a Painboy Aura (they're more or less dead as a unit, may as well make them useful with Snakebitez), and they get to reroll 1s to wound against Monsters/Vehicles, as a sign that they have that old tribal hunter feel.
Blood Axes get the new version of -1 to hit when in cover when out of 12" and just counting as being in cover when you're not. Take away falling back and being able to shoot/charge, with +1 to charge, since they of all people should be the deepstrike faction.
Evil Sunz change to be more transport/speed freek oriented. Evil Sunz units can disembark the turn their transport moved, while also allowing the advance and shoot without negatives to hit penalty. Models without the flyer keyword can re-roll advance rolls, while Flyer models can pivot an additional 90 degrees after their initial movement. Makes it so it makes sense to take vehicles in an Evil Sunz list.
As for 'Ard Boyz, its just yet another ability that is a stratagem really just so we can say we have several stratagems to pick from. GW is pretty bad about that where generic effects are a strat for some reason, i.e. bellowing smoke clouds, 'ard boyz, snagga klaw, or the Freeboota barrage (that should just be a Flashgitz or even just Badruck thing, since its WEAKER than other variants of it anyway)
I dont even think i'd use 'Ard Boyz if it was 1cp. Like Skarboyz, if you try to use that on multiple boyz that just devours your CP and you really dont get much from it. If it still gave them a 4+, maybe i'd consider it. 5+? No way. Now a 5++....i could get behind that lol (no freakin' way that'd happen)
As for 'Ard Boyz, its just yet another ability that is a stratagem really just so we can say we have several stratagems to pick from. GW is pretty bad about that where generic effects are a strat for some reason, i.e. bellowing smoke clouds, 'ard boyz, snagga klaw, or the Freeboota barrage (that should just be a Flashgitz or even just Badruck thing, since its WEAKER than other variants of it anyway)
I dont even think i'd use 'Ard Boyz if it was 1cp. Like Skarboyz, if you try to use that on multiple boyz that just devours your CP and you really dont get much from it. If it still gave them a 4+, maybe i'd consider it. 5+? No way. Now a 5++....i could get behind that lol (no freakin' way that'd happen)
Yeah, I think GW was overly paranoid of how it would interact with Cover and Loot It! stratagems stacking, but that involves so many variables (and CP for that matter) that it realistically will almost never come into play, and if it does, at best its with only one unit. With how much AP is thrown everywhere (especially with SM doctrines), a 4+ save for 1CP regardless of size for the boyz squad is reasonable IMO.
@some bloke
Multiple SAG's are okay for HQ slot filler if you want something besides Weirdboyz since it gives you more of a backfield presence. But I would say that they would 100% have to be Deffskullz if you do a list like that since without that extra D6 shots from the relic, they're that much more swingy and you need those rerolls to do something somewhat consistent with them.
i almost never even get the chance to do Loot It! as it is. By the time one of my vehicles pop thats near my boyz they are down to less than 10 models anyway so i dont even bother. Bout the only time i ever use it is when i run nobz, which isnt that common since i run badmoonz mono. Pop their transport, 3+ save nobz. And even then usually by the time their wagon drops in, and where i drop it, the wagon usually doesnt die anyway lol
Yeah if it was still 4+ in theory we could get 2+ save boyz if they Looted and were in cover. By the time that happens, theres at most 15 boyz left. And boyz are terrible at camping in cover, they either have piss range or want to melee things, so they wont be in that cover more than a turn it takes to get through it. Meanwhile all marines just sit in terrain enjoying armywide 2+. Gotta love it
Vineheart01 wrote: i almost never even get the chance to do Loot It! as it is. By the time one of my vehicles pop thats near my boyz they are down to less than 10 models anyway so i dont even bother.
Bout the only time i ever use it is when i run nobz, which isnt that common since i run badmoonz mono. Pop their transport, 3+ save nobz. And even then usually by the time their wagon drops in, and where i drop it, the wagon usually doesnt die anyway lol
Yeah if it was still 4+ in theory we could get 2+ save boyz if they Looted and were in cover.
By the time that happens, theres at most 15 boyz left. And boyz are terrible at camping in cover, they either have piss range or want to melee things, so they wont be in that cover more than a turn it takes to get through it.
Meanwhile all marines just sit in terrain enjoying armywide 2+. Gotta love it
Can't steal the spotlight from GW's golden boys, the SM gang. They almost can't go without releasing a boxed set with marines in some way, and when they finally do (the recent Blood of the Phoenix), its so phoned in when compared to the amount of effort put into the SM supplements. Orks have definitely gotten away better than some other xenos factions but it still pains me everytime I see a new SM lieutenant and then look at our range and see that we still don't have a standalone plastic Warboss or Big Mek kit.
speaking of plastic bosses...how come Wurldkilla doesnt have his own dataslate anymore? it just dawned on me hes been repackaged as a killteam warboss and theres no rules for HIM, just generic boss with klaw/squig
Granted if i remember right he was Goff so probably wouldnt care either way, just find it weird.
I believe his original name was Grukk Face-Rippa, who did indeed have his own datasheet back in 7th. I think they just tried sweeping what happened in Sanctus Reach under the rug fluff-wise, since they don't really bring him up anymore beyond the small blurb in the history timeline. Which is rich, given that Krom Dragongaze, a named SW character from the same campaign event, still has his datasheet in the SW codex in the current edition. I don't understand the aversion GW seems to have regarding Ork characters tbh, is it because we can kitbash them that they don't want to risk any lack of model clampack sales?
Grimskul wrote: The Klan Kultur debate has been brought up before and basically it boils down to these changes being made:
Goff units gain +1S, Skarboyz gain AP-1 to their attacks (stacks with weapons like PK or Big Choppa). Makes them premier assault units without redundancy like extra attacks.
Snakebites keep the 6++ save, but that gets buffed to a 5++ when in a Painboy Aura (they're more or less dead as a unit, may as well make them useful with Snakebitez), and they get to reroll 1s to wound against Monsters/Vehicles, as a sign that they have that old tribal hunter feel.
Blood Axes get the new version of -1 to hit when in cover when out of 12" and just counting as being in cover when you're not. Take away falling back and being able to shoot/charge, with +1 to charge, since they of all people should be the deepstrike faction.
Evil Sunz change to be more transport/speed freek oriented. Evil Sunz units can disembark the turn their transport moved, while also allowing the advance and shoot without negatives to hit penalty. Models without the flyer keyword can re-roll advance rolls, while Flyer models can pivot an additional 90 degrees after their initial movement. Makes it so it makes sense to take vehicles in an Evil Sunz list.
I like these changes.
I suppose a lot of the rules (outside of the pointless, crap kulturs) aren't terrible they just ignore fluff. Which is par for the course.
But yeah, it seems really backwards that most of my vehicles I want to be *not* Evil suns. I already move fast enough, unless I'm like a Bonebreaker. Meanwhile, invul save and re-rolls is clutch, or re-rolling 1s to hit.
Gaining +1 move on Boys is a 20% buff, and if you want to shoot, doubling their shooting effectiveness while doubling their movement. And the deepstrike charge becomes *incredibly* consistent, which is fueled by Da Jump. Vehicles even have a stratagem that lets them basically guarantee a charge, so +1 isn't so useful.
All of this is even more pronounced on MANz.
Seems incredibly obvious with just a skimming of the rules how you'd ideally like to setup your units with kulturs.
Oh well. At the very least, 4/7 of the Kulturs aren't bad, and one gets an honourable mention. An update would be good, but at this point, I'd be almost afraid it would break the codices competitive lists.
As for 'Ard Boyz, its just yet another ability that is a stratagem really just so we can say we have several stratagems to pick from. GW is pretty bad about that where generic effects are a strat for some reason, i.e. bellowing smoke clouds, 'ard boyz, snagga klaw, or the Freeboota barrage (that should just be a Flashgitz or even just Badruck thing, since its WEAKER than other variants of it anyway)
I dont even think i'd use 'Ard Boyz if it was 1cp. Like Skarboyz, if you try to use that on multiple boyz that just devours your CP and you really dont get much from it. If it still gave them a 4+, maybe i'd consider it. 5+? No way. Now a 5++....i could get behind that lol (no freakin' way that'd happen)
So the thing I found was the 2 times I did go to Ardboys I encountered an interesting scenario. I had 2 units of boys close to the enemy. the non ard boys were a bit closer. both were in range to be able to charge. both were still over 20+. My opponent had to choose which unit to delete. the real close one or the semi close ard boys. IIRC correctly he ended up trying to wipe ardboys and failed. then I brought the full unit back with CP. the endless green tide strat pulls more weight on them than regular boys but I also forced him to shoot the ardboys even though a closer unit was there.
I've got a 2k game to play this weekend (hopefully) and I've knocked together a list which I think maximises board control and CP, with a view to using tellyporta (first time), ramming speed, and shoot twice strats in excess.
Gives me 19CP to play with. Thinking to rush 2 battlewagons forward and take an opportunistic charge, if needed, using ramming speed + advance (wartrike). third battlewagon will be in the tellyporta. Each wagon has 2 rokkits, tankbusta bomms and a KMB mek in there, for 3+D3 S8 shots, 2 of which can be rerolled, and all the shootas too.
All the filling-in stuff (smashas, koptas, grots) have roles to play - koptas can outflank for opportunistic KMB shots at characters, grots stand around SAGs to keep them from being shot. MSU grots means minimal morale casualties (either you kill all of them or none of them). smashas and lootas are there to shoot middleweight stuff. SSAG will hunt tanks. SAG's will prey on the weak and aim to overkill, so they don't disappoint.
Main concerns are the 2 primaris hovertanks, the anti-chaff one and, more worryingly, the anti-tank monster that fires twice if it moves less than 1/2 movement with a 2 shot lascannon. last game they were buffed with rerolling hits & wounds due to auras. Main questions are:
1: If I get into CC with the repulsors, do they have the ability to fall back and still fire? if not, I feel the deffkilla may have a suicide mission to undertake on turn 1. That, or some jumped grots, 9" charge to make... could be a valid option. could perhaps even jump grots behind and try for a wrap to keep it locked down for more than one turn, forcing an intervention charge which might throw off his groove.
2: any other advice for facing ultramarine primaris, really! I know he likes his 1/2 movement power, which can screw with my wagons. generally the plan is to gun down as much anti-infantry as possible (anti-chaff repulsor and the aggressors are a priority) so that when my wagons inevitably die, he can't deal with the resulting flood of orks. Not 100% on the deffkillas purpose, but if he can't fall back & shoot (which I suspect he can because spehs mehreens) he could block the main gun for turn 1. he won't be the warlord so he's no great loss!
Swap the Lootas for more Mek Guns. Boring as it sounds. Could straight up swap for 2 guns and have some spare change for upgrades (grot riggers on your wagons?), or drop 1 boy for a 3rd.
I would actually love to say 1-1 swap for a Tankbustas, put those in one of the wagons (fits the style of your list like 100 times better)...
Lets see
You drop 5 boys, add a smasha, swap them for lootas?
I've been having an increasingly difficult time going second these days. I have been getting a lot of practice doing it, since my dice hate that roll-off, but I'm not having any success.
Even with grot shields 15 lootas are gone after 90 hits (easily done in my meta), and those 6 grots per loota make them cost 35pts each...hardly worth it IMHO.
The mek guns get wiped out before I can use them, and certainly by turn 2. I have a SSAG but even he has awful trouble staying alive long, and dedicating 30 boyz at 210 points as a screen makes him way to expensive.
I can put some things behind cover but against IH flyers (et al) there is precious little space back there.
I certainly try to play the objectives but when I start my turn 1 with a 1000 point army it gets difficult.
Grimskul wrote: I believe his original name was Grukk Face-Rippa, who did indeed have his own datasheet back in 7th. I think they just tried sweeping what happened in Sanctus Reach under the rug fluff-wise, since they don't really bring him up anymore beyond the small blurb in the history timeline. Which is rich, given that Krom Dragongaze, a named SW character from the same campaign event, still has his datasheet in the SW codex in the current edition. I don't understand the aversion GW seems to have regarding Ork characters tbh, is it because we can kitbash them that they don't want to risk any lack of model clampack sales?
that would also explain where Da Council Of Da Waaaagh! went. Tau kept their "The Eight" and it switched to a LoW type thing. But that wasnt part of Sanctus Reach, that was just the Farsight Enclave book. Not that i'd want the Council in the current rules though. Our relics arent anywhere near as good and bosses have a much weaker bite than before. Would be amusing to see it return but i dont think it'd be a viable choice outside "fun" stuff, mostly because it would be Goff locked anyway. its funny. The main reason we didnt use Nobz in the past was insta-death mechanics made T4 multiwound models kinda pointless (except MANz because they were so unusually cheap). But at the same token, most of our gak RELIED on the insta-death or vehicle explosion lol..so it has a lot less bite now
JimOnMars wrote: I've been having an increasingly difficult time going second these days. I have been getting a lot of practice doing it, since my dice hate that roll-off, but I'm not having any success.
Even with grot shields 15 lootas are gone after 90 hits (easily done in my meta), and those 6 grots per loota make them cost 35pts each...hardly worth it IMHO.
The mek guns get wiped out before I can use them, and certainly by turn 2. I have a SSAG but even he has awful trouble staying alive long, and dedicating 30 boyz at 210 points as a screen makes him way to expensive.
I can put some things behind cover but against IH flyers (et al) there is precious little space back there.
I certainly try to play the objectives but when I start my turn 1 with a 1000 point army it gets difficult.
Any tips?
I don't know what your meta looks like, but if every opponent you come up against is deleting half your army in a single turn, I really don't know what advice I can give you. Seems like they're either tailoring their lists to wipe ya, or they're just extremely lucky (or you're extremely unlucky). Maybe both. Orkz aren't exactly the most durable Faction around, but 1000 pts per turn is just crazy.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Especially since you seem to have enough terrain (at least enough to provide cover). Are you using the Tellyporta Stratagem? If you're never getting first go anyway, you might as well throw as much we you can into there and, at least, spare your important units from a spanking.
One piece of advice vs snipers and flyer spam that delete SSAG and lootas: deploy always out of sight, if you got juicy target T1, just move them a floor up and pop more Dakka. Or jump them. Or both.
The MA big mek is ok, he's just severely overcosted. He's slow, a mediocre fighter and his shooting is meh, so basically you're paying 119pts for a 9" 5++ bubble that cannot keep up with the rest of your army, which just isn't worth it.
Oguhmek wrote: The MA big mek is ok, he's just severely overcosted. He's slow, a mediocre fighter and his shooting is meh, so basically you're paying 119pts for a 9" 5++ bubble that cannot keep up with the rest of your army, which just isn't worth it.
I'd say 85-95pts would be fair.
If I only had to pay 85, gun included (KMB) for the slow big Mek, acceptable. I guess.
But yeah, compare what 119 points gets you close to in the SM codex. Woof.
Assault Centurions. 52 points for a M4", WS3+, BS3+, S5, T5, W4, A3 (4 on Sarge), 2+ save model. With Hurricane Bolters, two Flamers, and a Thunder Hammer that has no hit penalty AND AP-4. They also Ignore Cover while the Sarge is alive, because feth you.
Sure, they're slow. But they're cheaper than a Warboss, hit pretty much as hard or harder, and are more durable with that 2+ as compared to a Boss's 4+. And their Dakka is respectable.
Yeah SM stuff used to be about 40-50% more expensive than the ork equiv for that ridiculous stat boost. Two of any ork equiv to a marine should be roughly equal in an ideal vacuum, not even close now. Orks get DakkaDakkaDakka and kultures? Boyz go up a point. Marines get doctrines, better traits, and bolter disc? Better take a point off. Now theyre more like 20%. And still have just as big a power gap.
Aggressors severely piss me off too. Theyre insane for the cost. They have no business having 3 freaking wounds either.
You know a dex is kinda ridiculous when people refuse to use something thats arguably overpowered, because its not as good as other tactics. I would LOVE to get something like that Tactical War Suit, but ive never seen a single marine use it because "its not as good as the rest of the dex"
There's a lot of things Marines get that I wish we did. I'd be happy if Nobz really WERE MEQs, including the stat line. I'll even take the same PPM. I don't even want the BEST Marines, you could give me the pre-Codex stuff. I could do a lot with that kinda statline in an Ork army.
Played an intro game for a player returning to 40k and new to 8th. So basically had a nice chilled Snakebites list with some killa kanz, Boyz and a warboss.
I was doing a lot of teaching, but actually I quite liked having the 6++ on my Boyz, and fearless kanz. The only thing I really didn't like was how utterly pump a warboss is now. Granted I gave him a big choppa, and the Surly as a Squiggoth warlord trait, but I expected that when I charged him solo into a unit of 10 vanguard that he would take a little less than 2, nearly 3, turns to finally wipe out 10 t3 1w 4+ dudes.
It was actually depressing how bad this once mighty powerhouse has become.
Yeah with a killa klaw, and brutal but kunning, fight twice and orks is never beaten a warboss can be pretty sweet, but surely a base, Un-buffed Warboss should be able to cleave a unit of bog standard oomies to bits in about a turn of combat?
Just a bit disappointed, I never used to run a list without a Warboss, now they only come out for games like this. Bit sad really.
r_squared wrote: Played an intro game for a player returning to 40k and new to 8th. So basically had a nice chilled Snakebites list with some killa kanz, Boyz and a warboss.
I was doing a lot of teaching, but actually I quite liked having the 6++ on my Boyz, and fearless kanz. The only thing I really didn't like was how utterly pump a warboss is now. Granted I gave him a big choppa, and the Surly as a Squiggoth warlord trait, but I expected that when I charged him solo into a unit of 10 vanguard that he would take a little less than 2, nearly 3, turns to finally wipe out 10 t3 1w 4+ dudes.
It was actually depressing how bad this once mighty powerhouse has become.
Yeah with a killa klaw, and brutal but kunning, fight twice and orks is never beaten a warboss can be pretty sweet, but surely a base, Un-buffed Warboss should be able to cleave a unit of bog standard oomies to bits in about a turn of combat?
Just a bit disappointed, I never used to run a list without a Warboss, now they only come out for games like this. Bit sad really.
Yeah, that's the saddest part. What used to be the most killy unit in our army and barely cut through chaff units at the best of times without buffs. It really is a travesty
HQ - SSAG + Badrukk
TR - 3x Gretchin
Elite - 10x Nobz with Kustom shoota (for 40 shots!) go in the Chinork
Heavy - Battlewagon with Deffrolla and Big shootas
Heavy - 8 Flashgitz
Heavy - 4x Smasha gun
Trans - Chinork Warkopta
Deffskull Outrider Detachment:
HQ - Wartrike
FA - Boosta Blasta
FA - Boosta Blasta
FA - Boosta Blasta
FA - 2x Scrapjet
FA - 2x Scrapjet
FA - Shokkjump Dragsta
So far I have had some success with the buggies. But that wasn't in a very competetive environment. I am not expecting to win a lot, just have a lot of fun.
Looks good, but no KFF? At the very least put one mek in there and use the stratagem to protect them T1. I'm going to run a Morkanaut and two KFF to keep my stuff safe, otherwise something like dreads or predators will have a field day blowing up your buggies.
Didn't give the Wazbomb with KFF a thought because most of my army is Deafskulls and has an inherent 6++. But i gave it a try during a game yesterday and he did well and is quite usefull. So the Wazbomb is in. Thanks for mentioning!
Apart from that I changed out the Battlewagon with a Big Trakk with Supa-skorcha in my final list. More fun and the BW didn't perform as well as expected. The Big trakk is just a little less tough but can dish out some reliable damage. If not blown to pieces straight away, but then the 15 wounds bullet-magnet will have 'protected' the buggies in its own way.
Just a bit disappointed, I never used to run a list without a Warboss, now they only come out for games like this. Bit sad really.
yea i kinda only take one now for the auto pass LD and advance and charge, thats kinda 'what he's for' now.
There are some desperation tricks you can run on him. You could drop loads of CP on him fighting twice and even fighting again if he gets killed, with the relic power klaw i'v managed to kill a knight like that!
tulun wrote: Swap the Lootas for more Mek Guns. Boring as it sounds. Could straight up swap for 2 guns and have some spare change for upgrades (grot riggers on your wagons?), or drop 1 boy for a 3rd.
I would actually love to say 1-1 swap for a Tankbustas, put those in one of the wagons (fits the style of your list like 100 times better)...
Lets see
You drop 5 boys, add a smasha, swap them for lootas?
Yeah, that works I think.
Ah ok, so drop lootas for Tankbustas, and drop boys for space in the wagon for TB's and points for mek guns?
I'll definitely have a look and see how that shoehorns in, having some Tankbustas would be a good option. I could drop a Mek for a couple more TB's (as they will fill an elites slot for the brigade, and perform a similar role).
Just a bit disappointed, I never used to run a list without a Warboss, now they only come out for games like this. Bit sad really.
yea i kinda only take one now for the auto pass LD and advance and charge, thats kinda 'what he's for' now.
There are some desperation tricks you can run on him. You could drop loads of CP on him fighting twice and even fighting again if he gets killed, with the relic power klaw i'v managed to kill a knight like that!
In another thread, I've done the math.
A Warboss with Fists of Gork and Da Killa Klaw does slightly over 2 damage per swing (average) against a 3+ Knight in close combat. If you also have Might Is Right or Warpath, then he's got a 50/50 chance of one-rounding a Knight when Fighting Twice.
Ah ok, so drop lootas for Tankbustas, and drop boys for space in the wagon for TB's and points for mek guns?
I'll definitely have a look and see how that shoehorns in, having some Tankbustas would be a good option. I could drop a Mek for a couple more TB's (as they will fill an elites slot for the brigade, and perform a similar role).
Cheers!
Oh you're mono kultur. Yeah, even better. You could maybe get a nice size of tankbustas then. KMB swap to tankbustas seems solid as well.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Wait.
I was reading in another thread if you take the SSAG, it doesn’t count towards your free relic? Is this true?
I have been paying 2 CP: 1 for the detachment, than 1 for the klaw as second relic.
Vineheart01 wrote: No its indeed a regular relic, it just has the added restriction of only a Dread Waaaagh! Big Mek with SAG has access to it.
Yeah, I figured this was the case. I wasn't sure the specialist detachment had some sort of special rule given to it that might alter that that I missed.
Well worth the 1 extra CP anyway.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Trying to make Trukk Boys work in 1500 (know this isn't the *most* competitive choice, I'm just curious).
Any thoughts on improvements or obvious holes in the list?
I could swap the SAG and Baddruk back, but I think he should go in a Trukk so he can threaten up the board instead of slogging it. I could also bring it an KFF Mek, but I'm wondering if I can just hide most of my stuff turn 1 if I go 2nd.
Currently I'm still pondering what troops to use for my buggy list. I really want to put boyz in my bonebreaka and trukks, but I can't justify the points for doing so.
Ran well, very well in fact. Got second turn both times, both times the opponent did a decent amount of damage to their pressing concern - the battlewagons - and both times my return fire from 2 SAG (one Supa and firing twice), the Tankbustas and the massed rokkits / KMB, all with rerolls due to MSU Deffskulls, did a colossal amount of damage. I killed 2 repulsors on my first turn in game 1, and left 1 alive with 3 wounds on my first turn in game 2.
I used the way the "Kustom Ammo" strat is worded to mean that I can select a unit to shoot again at any point, not when it shoots - the unit can shoot twice, so I was running through my whole shooting phase and then, once I knew the damage I had done, I was choosing my target with the SSAG to finish something off. Hopefully that's right!
re-jigging the list for future use, I've dropped the deff rollas on the battlewagons, as they only used one, once, and swapped a weirdboy for a Warboss to keep the boys from running, and used the spare points to add some more Tankbustas in.
An alternative is to swap the Warboss and a bomm squig for a third SAG, to keep up the power of my artillery!
Wartrike was semi-useless for both games, as it didn't have much of a role to play - it's main aim is to pull off a turn 1 charge (move 14", advance 6" + ramming speed) to stop something from shooting - which doesn't work against ultramarines!
Deffkoptas proved their worth again for getting behind using their ability to move onto a board edge and then sniping characters who are hiding behind the lines. I also used da jump to move a KMB mek for the same purpose!
Weirdboys were superfluous, but I had not managed to build another SAG, so that's why I had a second!
All in all, it seems to work well - and having 19 CP to spend is pretty sweet!
On the topic of Buggies, do you think they're more viable if spammed? They feel decided mid-tier to me (not withstanding the awful Squigbuggy), but I feel like maybe 3-4 each of the others might be able to put in some work, just due to the sheer number of Wounds and multiple targets.
I've been thinking about running 2x units of KBBs, Snazzwagons, and Scrapjets in a 1k list (paired with a Dread Waagh CP battery and led by a Wartrike), but I'm not 100% on whether that'd be viable. At that point scale, I'm thinking it might be better to just go with a Greentide.
Jidmah wrote: KBB do that way better than trukks though.
Currently I'm still pondering what troops to use for my buggy list. I really want to put boyz in my bonebreaka and trukks, but I can't justify the points for doing so.
A trukk with 10 grots is 97 points for 12+10 W. The KBB is what 120 points for 8W?
I really like the model of the KBB and the sniper. The wartrike too, but he cost in poiints is slowed
I doubt that spamming them would make sense. Their bases are huge, I currently have five buggies, a bonecrusha and a morkanaut planned, and it's going to be a very tight deployment zone already.
Jidmah wrote: KBB do that way better than trukks though.
Currently I'm still pondering what troops to use for my buggy list. I really want to put boyz in my bonebreaka and trukks, but I can't justify the points for doing so.
A trukk with 10 grots is 97 points for 12+10 W. The KBB is what 120 points for 8W? I really like the model of the KBB and the sniper. The wartrike too, but he cost in poiints is slowed
KBB is 100. Instead of 4 wounds and a big shoota you get mortal wounds on the charge, shooting of four burnas and three lootas and the attack profile is better too. Anything that can take down a KBB will also take down the trukk, and it's not like the gretchin stand any chance of surviving.
Even if they DO survive, you're looking at 10 S3 shots at BS4+ and no AP. The only thing they're gonna be threatening is another unit of Grots. If I were your opponent, I'd just ignore that Trukk the entire game. Even then, it might not even make its points back.
technically the trukk hits harder than the KBB does in melee since wrecking ball is still pretty strong, but only hits on 5s so decent odds at not doing jack squat.
Wreckingball is still a S8 attack with decent AP and damage.One of the things that bugs me about the KBB is it has that spiked ram and flamers, indicating its a close-range assault vehicle, yet it blows a fat one at actual melee and has no built-in fallback and shoot moves (which of all the buggies you'd think THAT one would have such a rule)
It hits harder, but it has less attacks (especially after degrading). And the Trukk'z preferred CC target (with a Ball) is the same as the Scrapjet, which is WAY better at it. The KBB does decently against Infantry, where it doesn't really need the S8 as much.
I was gonna say to run them as Bloodaxes, but I remembered it Shoot OR Charge after Fallback, not both. And both the KBB and the Scrapjet would want to do both.
It's not that hard to pick targets that want to fall back themselves though, especially when assaulting a single unit with multiple buggies or even the wartrike - either they stay in combat and can't shoot and hopefully get decimated in combat, or leave and must move outside of 1" of all enemy models.
Ran well, very well in fact. Got second turn both times, both times the opponent did a decent amount of damage to their pressing concern - the battlewagons - and both times my return fire from 2 SAG (one Supa and firing twice), the Tankbustas and the massed rokkits / KMB, all with rerolls due to MSU Deffskulls, did a colossal amount of damage. I killed 2 repulsors on my first turn in game 1, and left 1 alive with 3 wounds on my first turn in game 2.
I used the way the "Kustom Ammo" strat is worded to mean that I can select a unit to shoot again at any point, not when it shoots - the unit can shoot twice, so I was running through my whole shooting phase and then, once I knew the damage I had done, I was choosing my target with the SSAG to finish something off. Hopefully that's right!
re-jigging the list for future use, I've dropped the deff rollas on the battlewagons, as they only used one, once, and swapped a weirdboy for a Warboss to keep the boys from running, and used the spare points to add some more Tankbustas in.
An alternative is to swap the Warboss and a bomm squig for a third SAG, to keep up the power of my artillery!
Wartrike was semi-useless for both games, as it didn't have much of a role to play - it's main aim is to pull off a turn 1 charge (move 14", advance 6" + ramming speed) to stop something from shooting - which doesn't work against ultramarines!
Deffkoptas proved their worth again for getting behind using their ability to move onto a board edge and then sniping characters who are hiding behind the lines. I also used da jump to move a KMB mek for the same purpose!
Weirdboys were superfluous, but I had not managed to build another SAG, so that's why I had a second!
All in all, it seems to work well - and having 19 CP to spend is pretty sweet!
I think with a solid point drop ( think 20-30 points per buggy. Not say thing this is likely or even wise, though) you could conceive of a really potent buggy / mecha spam. A lot ork vehicles are probably just a bit too pricy. But if marines are the standard...
Also: 10/12 marines ( with soups ) in top 4s. Woof.
How have y’all started to shift towards marine counters?
Emicrania wrote: As per RAW, would Flashgitz inside a trukk/Battlewagon benefits of Badrukk rerolls, if he's in the trukk/Battlewagon aswell?
No.
Badrukk's reroll works for himself when inside a transport, same as the FG's ammo-runt. Don't they?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
flandarz wrote: On the topic of Buggies, do you think they're more viable if spammed? They feel decided mid-tier to me (not withstanding the awful Squigbuggy), but I feel like maybe 3-4 each of the others might be able to put in some work, just due to the sheer number of Wounds and multiple targets.
Massed scrapjets work quite well as Deathskulls. They are quite allright at shooting, work when charging and can be dangerous in overwatch as well. I faced 6 of them with my Nids and they hurt a lot. Will bring 4, back up by 3 KBB's to a tourney in a couple of weeks. The only thing I am seriously dissapointed in is the Wartrike which sould support them but hardly does.
Emicrania wrote: As per RAW, would Flashgitz inside a trukk/Battlewagon benefits of Badrukk rerolls, if he's in the trukk/Battlewagon aswell?
No.
Badrukk's reroll works for himself when inside a transport, same as the FG's ammo-runt. Don't they?
He still doesn't get it in a transport as it's an aura. It has no effect according to the rules and he wouldn't be within range of himself, as his aura and model are both non-existent while in the transport.
BRBpg 183 wrote:
Unless specifically stated, abilities that affect other units within a certain range have no effect whilst the unit that has the ability is embarked.
Ammo Runts aren't an aura and just take affect on your hit roll when you shoot. Open topped permits you to shoot so it the ability still takes affect.
Codex Orks pg 90 wrote:
Ammo Runt: If Kaptin Badrukk is accompanied by an Ammo Runt, you can re-roll one hit roll each time he shoots.
More accurately, you cannot measure to of from a model in a transport.
Therefore you cannot measure whether Badrukk is within 6" of himself and thus he is not inside the range of his own aura.
It's a bit abstract, but simply put, whenever you can't measure something, it's not in range.
Its one of those insanely silly GW rulings that for some reason they refuse to change, even though it makes absolutely no sense.
Ork units for the longest time have relied on their transports to survive, since they themselves are tissuepaper. Suddenly thats not a wise move because auras and stratagems dont work in it for some reason. Also, cant psyker out of them at all now.
My thoughts around the grots were mere as distraction carnifex and move blocking. The grots and trukk are there to die in order to set up midfield and win by contesting obs.
But yeah, we need a boost or Marines need to go up in points.
Or both
I just don't think a Grot Trukk is dangerous enough to distract anyone. Probably better off putting some Boyz in there, if you want someone to actually consider it a threat and target it. For about 150 pts, you could have 12 Shoota Boyz in that Trukk (86 for the Boyz and about 65 for the Trukk), so it's still cheap enough that you won't lose sleep if your opponent slams it, but also dangerous enough that they'll actually consider shooting it instead of something else.
Their place is to tag relic contemptor dreadnought and 3 man aggressors. Atm the only option we have is delete one big treath a turn. New SM are not funny to play against.
flandarz wrote: I just don't think a Grot Trukk is dangerous enough to distract anyone. Probably better off putting some Boyz in there, if you want someone to actually consider it a threat and target it. For about 150 pts, you could have 12 Shoota Boyz in that Trukk (86 for the Boyz and about 65 for the Trukk), so it's still cheap enough that you won't lose sleep if your opponent slams it, but also dangerous enough that they'll actually consider shooting it instead of something else.
Add a rokkit to the boys (I'd run shootas) and you've got a real threat, and it will be targeted. If they ignore you, use the trukks mobility to try to line up shots on characters!
That said, for a cheap, fast, objective-secured unit, grots in a trukk are probably the most suitable. If you're ok with running forgeworld, Grots in a chinork warkopta would be a pretty cool option (and the chinork does have a bit more offensive firepower, and as it can jump over units, making it more utilitarian).
Having thought of this, I may actually look into an all-flying Ork list; grots & boys in chinorks, deffkoptas, and a smattering of fliers...
I need to convert one to play flight of the Valkyries
Add a Combi-Rokkit for the boss nob and a tankbusta bomb. Still not worth their points, but real PITA for enemies, especially with deff skulls re-rolls.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Does anyone have good advice (or pictures) on fast-painting ork bikers? I still have 8 to go until the end of the month, and the amount of details on the bikes is making me go insane - it takes me two evenings to finish one
Quick question, how does Dakka, Dakka, Dakka work with -1 or greater to hit? Does it always go off on a 6 or does that count as a modified roll as there are modifiers on it?
DDD always goes off on roll of a 6 regardless or positive or negative modifiers. It can’t be made impossible to achieve and the only way to improve it (to happening on a 5 and a 6) is to use the Moar Dakka stratagem.
Does anyone have good advice (or pictures) on fast-painting ork bikers? I still have 8 to go until the end of the month, and the amount of details on the bikes is making me go insane - it takes me two evenings to finish one
I'm on phone so can't post pics at the mo (not that I know how on the computer, mind) but I have painted a fair few bikes and switched my method mid way through to increase the speed and look. It is much quicker/easier using assemblies but I assume you're doing that anyways?
1. Spray all metal areas black (bike, guns, ammo drum, handlebars etc) and do a decent drybrush of a metallic, drybrush areas to taste and where natural highlights exist.
2. Don't colour all the panels in your clan of choice, pick only a few such as the wheel cover, the ammo drum etc.
3. Spray the rider in a brown or tan colour, use colour for the clothing of the Boy using washes and highlights.
4. Pick out some details in a bright colour - for example I pick out the lightning glyphs, dakka symbols, a few of the material scraps in bright yellow or red.
The eureka moment for me was the drybrushing the metallics on the metal areas. It looks way better anyway IMO and the better results come much quicker than spraying in a metallic and toning down (which is what I used to do previously).
Hope that helps, message me if you want more detail.
Last night was pretty sight to behold for orks. The ork player in our escalation league brought stompa to final round of escalation league and not only managed to win by tabling ultramarine/ig/assasin alliance but the stompa killed Guillimann for bonus!
No idea how she managed to do that as I was playing my own game but still. Every time stompa actually somehow by some miracle manages to do something warms green heart.
Does anyone have good advice (or pictures) on fast-painting ork bikers? I still have 8 to go until the end of the month, and the amount of details on the bikes is making me go insane - it takes me two evenings to finish one
I'm on phone so can't post pics at the mo (not that I know how on the computer, mind) but I have painted a fair few bikes and switched my method mid way through to increase the speed and look. It is much quicker/easier using assemblies but I assume you're doing that anyways?
1. Spray all metal areas black (bike, guns, ammo drum, handlebars etc) and do a decent drybrush of a metallic, drybrush areas to taste and where natural highlights exist.
2. Don't colour all the panels in your clan of choice, pick only a few such as the wheel cover, the ammo drum etc.
3. Spray the rider in a brown or tan colour, use colour for the clothing of the Boy using washes and highlights.
4. Pick out some details in a bright colour - for example I pick out the lightning glyphs, dakka symbols, a few of the material scraps in bright yellow or red.
The eureka moment for me was the drybrushing the metallics on the metal areas. It looks way better anyway IMO and the better results come much quicker than spraying in a metallic and toning down (which is what I used to do previously).
Hope that helps, message me if you want more detail.
Huh. Thanks for the advice. Right now I'm spraying the bikes in gunmetal, and just the wheels in black, but I'll try black on the next bunch. I don't really know what to skip on the bike, doesn't it look odd when large parts are unpainted?
Bikers aren't an issue, I assembly-painted them along with the buggy crews.
Ive always been terrible at giving painting advice since i do it so absentmindedly anyway.
When i was painting bikers i painted 2 a day with bikers not attached, but otherwise fully assembled. I pretty much completely covered them in the silver metal color first, the rustic metal after (usually kinda hard to see on bikers that i did that), then the yellow/red. Im the kind of painter that my models kinda look like flat junk until its hit with a wash. I do that on purpose, both becuase it speeds it up and i expect the wash to stain certain colors half the time. After the wash i usually go back for some edge-work, though i dont think i was doing that at the time when i painted these. To think i still have 12 more....lol....
Jidmah wrote: Add a Combi-Rokkit for the boss nob and a tankbusta bomb. Still not worth their points, but real PITA for enemies, especially with deff skulls re-rolls.
I’m hoping Trukks and rockets come down significantly in points. The idea of truck boys seems to me to be quite appealing but maybe not at the points you pay.
A unit of 12 boys w/ 2 rockets and shootas clocking in at ~ 130-140 points would be tempting. As it is, when you can get a full boy squad for about 215 with a big choppa, it’s hard to justify.
Although the truck is less likely to need KFF, weird boy, or any CP to try to do its job.
Trukk sadly needs help in ways that with their current rules mentality it simply wont get w/o a model revision, and quite frankly it doesnt need a model revision it still looks amazing. It needs more guns, simple as that. One weapon is pretty bad for an ork unit that doesnt have shenanigans to make it hit anyway, even worse when that weapon has no AP (since rokkit is index). Gone are the days of PK delivery services and MANz missiles, so the transport itself has to be a threat in some way and currently its only threatening presence is its a relatively fat mobile wall. Which trust me ive won games because of that simple fact delaying my opponent another turn but it rarely happens.
Without changing its loadout options it kinda needs to be radically cheaper and if it goes too cheap we run into the same issue Mekgunz are giivng us: stupid cheap moderately durable vehicles. Because lets face it, a trukk is oddly survivable in this edition by comparison to the past. Unless its hit with a proper anti-tank weapon it just sticks around for long enough to piss people off, but firing say a lascannon at it instead of the naut or wagon would be a win in the ork player's book lol
edit: on a completely unrelated topic i wonder what Gobbo is going to do since supposedly he has 40k rules....
Remember how trukks had the ramshackle rule? What if it came back, but instead of random stuff happening it gets to make one final move, and passengers can still charge out of the destroyed vehicle?
You'd think orks would get used to trukks getting blown up and would have learned to adapt. Could be hilarious to see in game.
I used a truk in a game the other day with my nobs before the game i considered deep striking it! then i asked my self... hang on why the heck am i even taking a truk.
orks don't need transports in this codex, they just don't.
I'm actually leaning the opposite direction: I'd rather the Trukk was 10 pts cheaper and had NO weapons. A Trukk isn't meant to be just a mini-BW, so it doesn't really need any guns.
Trukkz still have Ramshackle. Roll a D6 and on a 6, reduce damage to 1. It's not great (it honestly should be a 4+ to be useful), but it's there.
Orkz don't need transports for movement, that's true. But transports offer more than just enhanced movement. A Trukk gives you 10 T6 Sv4+ ablative Wounds that you can still shoot out of. For me, that's the purpose of Ork transports.
Trukkz (and to a lesser extend BWs) don't need to (and shouldn't) do much on their own. They should be a a "wall of Wounds" that keep your Boyz (or whatever you put in them) safe from enemy fire until you get them where they need to be. Unfortunately, the prevalence of AP and the lack of an Invuln makes it difficult for them to accomplish this. If you don't get first go, your opponent is probably gonna pop it in your own deployment zone. Then they'll have a nice group of infantry to train their anti-infantry on.
I mentioned it earlier, but all Ork Transports really need a 4+ Ramshackle. Even at their current points, I believe that'd make them perfectly viable.
Latro_ wrote: I used a truk in a game the other day with my nobs before the game i considered deep striking it! then i asked my self... hang on why the heck am i even taking a truk.
orks don't need transports in this codex, they just don't.
I disagree.
Tellyporta is great but every CP you spend on it CP not used on Green Tide, Shoot twice (BM or Dread Waagh), More Dakka (getting around negative hit modifiers in key moments), re-rolls (the more re-rolls I have on Strength or # of shots for my SSAG, the better).
If you're just blindly charging into a unit on turn 2/3, sure, I get it. But Trukks allow you to protect shooting units (Flash Gitz, Shoota Boyz), give an area of denial for deep strikers, etc, etc. It's not as simple as saying "Just deep strike". It could have a very useful place in an Ork list if it was a bit cheaper.
flandarz wrote:
I'm actually leaning the opposite direction: I'd rather the Trukk was 10 pts cheaper and had NO weapons. A Trukk isn't meant to be just a mini-BW, so it doesn't really need any guns.
Trukkz still have Ramshackle. Roll a D6 and on a 6, reduce damage to 1. It's not great (it honestly should be a 4+ to be useful), but it's there.
Orkz don't need transports for movement, that's true. But transports offer more than just enhanced movement. A Trukk gives you 10 T6 Sv4+ ablative Wounds that you can still shoot out of. For me, that's the purpose of Ork transports.
Trukkz (and to a lesser extend BWs) don't need to (and shouldn't) do much on their own. They should be a a "wall of Wounds" that keep your Boyz (or whatever you put in them) safe from enemy fire until you get them where they need to be. Unfortunately, the prevalence of AP and the lack of an Invuln makes it difficult for them to accomplish this. If you don't get first go, your opponent is probably gonna pop it in your own deployment zone. Then they'll have a nice group of infantry to train their anti-infantry on.
I mentioned it earlier, but all Ork Transports really need a 4+ Ramshackle. Even at their current points, I believe that'd make them perfectly viable.
I think this is the right answer. I don't care if my Trukks have a kickass gun, I care they are cheap and durable enough for me to exert board influence. If I can trade 40 points for 2CP and help move a unit up without tellyporta, this seems like a GOOD exchange rate.
Ramshackle on a 4+ might be a bit too much. Maybe a 5+ if they wanted to buff the durability without too many other changes.
a 4+, 6++ (DS), 5+++ (kind of) would actually be pretty decent.
4+ ramshackle would be a bit nuts. They'd be borderline unkillable since any big hit has a 50-50 shot at being 1 damage instead of 6.
I am surprised though that the 6+ variant isnt an ork vehicle thing in general, where even walkers have it, and the trukk was a 5+. Currently the only "other" version of it is the Mega Dread and that version of ramshackle is abysmal lol. 4+ FNP that the moment you fail one it goes to a 5+, then 6+ so realistically it "might" block 3 damage lol. Not 3 hits, 3 damage.
Well, a 4+ would mean that the high damage weapons would likely want to shoot elsewhere, but there are plenty of weapons with a large number of low damage shots that would still eat a Trukk up. 30 Badmoonz Shoota Boyz could do it (60 shots. 27 hits, 9 Wounds, 4.5 Damage, Shoot Twice and you got a Trukk with 1 Wound left), and they aren't even the best option WE have.
generally its 2damage weapons that eat my trukks up because they are low enough toughness to wound on 3s and only need 5-6 to get through anyway.
Except to finish one off i dont think ive had a single trukk get hit with a 1damage weapon. Theres plenty of multidamage weapons that dont want to hit T7/8 things but are fine with T6
I agree. Which is why I think a 4+ Ramshackle would be good. If an attack has high-AP and damage, the Ramshackle will protect the Trukk, but if they have low-AP and damage, you still got your 4+ Save.
I just want my trukks a little cheaper so they can work like 10 decent bonus wounds for the lootas. My list (hopefully) will have 24 lootas and 24 tbs in trukks....for less than 1000 points.
flandarz wrote: I'm actually leaning the opposite direction: I'd rather the Trukk was 10 pts cheaper and had NO weapons. A Trukk isn't meant to be just a mini-BW, so it doesn't really need any guns.
Trukkz still have Ramshackle. Roll a D6 and on a 6, reduce damage to 1. It's not great (it honestly should be a 4+ to be useful), but it's there.
Orkz don't need transports for movement, that's true. But transports offer more than just enhanced movement. A Trukk gives you 10 T6 Sv4+ ablative Wounds that you can still shoot out of. For me, that's the purpose of Ork transports.
Trukkz (and to a lesser extend BWs) don't need to (and shouldn't) do much on their own. They should be a a "wall of Wounds" that keep your Boyz (or whatever you put in them) safe from enemy fire until you get them where they need to be. Unfortunately, the prevalence of AP and the lack of an Invuln makes it difficult for them to accomplish this. If you don't get first go, your opponent is probably gonna pop it in your own deployment zone. Then they'll have a nice group of infantry to train their anti-infantry on.
I mentioned it earlier, but all Ork Transports really need a 4+ Ramshackle. Even at their current points, I believe that'd make them perfectly viable.
Yeah, they have ramshackle, but they don't have the fun version of ramshackle where the trukk drifts off somewhere and explodes. 8th is a bit bland like that. I think orks should have more sacrificial units / effects on death. Like, its going to die, but you'll get something useful in return.
Like, the snazzwagon should always explode at 6" and its guaranteed, no roll required. It should also be dirt cheap, because paying a premium for something that's meant to die is dumb. Trukks get you closer to the enemy upon death. Dreads lash out at nearby enemies upon death, or gets a free charge move. Ork infantry units flat out loot that old Black Templar rule where they move forward whenever they take casualties. That sort of thing.
It just seems orky to me that they would try to krump the git that destroyed their ride, even if they are certainly about to die in the process. Like that time Tuska Demonkilla castrated the demon who killed him as a final act of defiance. Orks should be all about that.
That'd certainly be nice, but I really don't expect we'll ever return to doing stuff like that. GW has made it pretty clear that Orkz (and all Xeno/Chaos) are just here to make the Marines look good.
technically its been that way since the beginning and until the recent marine bul--- er codex it has been quite the opposite.
When an imperial codex is so strong even imperial armies are complaining about it, its over the top and going to get tuned down eventually. The GW of 8th edition at least DOES nerf things, unlike 6th where we'd go an entire edition jsut about waiting for a faq so we could even play an army, let alone do good with it.
6th ed was just the old codex showing its age because to nobz, KFF and lootas dropped from competitive to meh due to basic rule changes. Everyone else getting more powerful codices didn't help either.
However, 7th edition started off with a codex nerfing the already struggling orks instead of buffing them, none of the new models could fill the holes the nerfs tore and the-supplement-that-shall-not-be-named had no other goal but ripping off ork players. One of the two formations which was made good by pure incompetence, was removed from the game later on. BTW, it was also 7th that killed the old ramshackle rule, not 8th.
I've had a look at throwing together a themed list where nearly everything is flying. It's based around 90 stormboys with Zagstruk, and warkoptas with rattler cannons.
I've noticed when I was throwing this together just how damn good rattler cannons seem to be! bought on a warkopta as a pair, they throw out 4D6 (average of 14 shots) at S5 AP-2 damage D3! per kopta, and my list has 5 (does the rule of 3 apply to dedicated transports?). If I get turn 1, my list will output 20D6 shots, plus rokkits on each kopta, plus a SSAG in fire support, plus a wazbomm to keep them safe, whilst my fearless stormboys rush across the field.
Dedicated Transport:
5 x chinork warkopta, rattler cannons, kustom mega blasta
I think it has the balance of anti-tank and anti-horde (I think the rattler cannons have the ROF and damage to be both!). I've never used more than 10 stormboys (I want to build more, as I love the concept). I know they are more expensive than boys and hit just as hard, and da jump & tellyporta makes the stormboys a little redundant, but as I can reliably get close for a turn 2 charge (rather than a maybe-charge of 9.1" with jump/tellyporta) and with the volume of bodies I have to soak up damage, not to mention the utility of being able to charge fliers (which I suspect some players may forget, to their doom), and the silly firepower of the koptas, I should be able to clear the anti-infantry guns reasonably efficiently and then have my stormboys run riot. If there's nothing I want to run headlong at (IE massed anti-infantry) I have the utility to hold my 'boys in orbit and drop on the battlefield once it looks a little safer!
Has anyone run a stormboy horde this edition? or massed koptas? does it work?
Jidmah wrote: 6th ed was just the old codex showing its age because to nobz, KFF and lootas dropped from competitive to meh due to basic rule changes. Everyone else getting more powerful codices didn't help either.
However, 7th edition started off with a codex nerfing the already struggling orks instead of buffing them, none of the new models could fill the holes the nerfs tore and the-supplement-that-shall-not-be-named had no other goal but ripping off ork players. One of the two formations which was made good by pure incompetence, was removed from the game later on.
BTW, it was also 7th that killed the old ramshackle rule, not 8th.
No formation was really removed though. While the ork supplement got redone without few formations GW's official stance was the old version could still be used so the formation was still 100% legal.
Reality was different. Since the new book had removed the green tide, it was no longer allowed to be used at multiple tournaments.
GW back-paddled on that almost a year later, presumably when Kirby got the boot and GW and they started to communicate again.
7th book was also written by Ward who had publicly stated he hates greenskins.
Yeah lets make the guy that absolutely hates the faction write the book. Makes sense.
I suffered through 6th because for the most part orks were still playable. 7th i lasted maybe 2 months and shelved my orks, i didnt even bother with the formations that came out later.
Zoggin' git Ward....
mustve flown under my radar for awhile then because i dont remember them showing up for awhile. But like i said, 7th i kinda bow'd out. At the time i had Tau and they were the opposite end of the spectrum where i had to TRY to be casual with them lol...i ran complete joke lists and still mashed most players in the area so i got bored of'm. Meanwhile orks i would be surprised if i wasnt tabled by turn2
Emicrania wrote: I was playing nids 7th. I must have lost 99% of my games because I refused to play 6 flyrant. 6th and 7th were fething gak edition.
I played ork for 90% of 7th. switched towards the end to crons but every battle was very near the worst. I may have had like 3 total wins. My common opponent was blood angels but he also played 2++ rerollable daemons
Jidmah wrote: If GW releases a new version of a book and removes something from it, it's more than fair to assume that the stuff removed should no longer be played.
You know, like SM 2.0 can't use Killshot anymore, because it was removed from the new codex.
GW removed the rules, not the players.
Except gw specifically said you can play them. Players are the one to blame for going against official rules just as they are when vigilus detachments can't be used.
Players remove, players to be blamed. Simple as that. If house rules cause issue fault lies with house rules.
I think it's pretty fair to assume that rules that don't transfer over to the newest books are probably gonna get axed in the future anyway, so a lot of people just go ahead and not use them. For example, I've been list building without Index options because they didn't make the transfer.
I guess is makes sense since they're both pretty sub-par in CC anyway (unless you give the BW a Deffrolla, but if you do why aren't you just taking a Bonebreaka anyway?).
Automatically Appended Next Post: Appears that the Bonebreaka also doesn't have 'Ere we Go, now that I look at it.
flandarz wrote: I guess is makes sense since they're both pretty sub-par in CC anyway (unless you give the BW a Deffrolla, but if you do why aren't you just taking a Bonebreaka anyway?).
Automatically Appended Next Post: Appears that the Bonebreaka also doesn't have 'Ere we Go, now that I look at it.
This kind of nonsensical stuff makes me wanna cry. It is so humiliating having opponents confront you on your own codex and making you look like a cheater....
eh, could be me and LOSE a game for the opposite reason.
For some reason i thought only infantry had 'ere we go. So i had multiple failed naut charges because i never rerolled when i could have.
This kind of nonsensical stuff makes me wanna cry. It is so humiliating having opponents confront you on your own codex and making you look like a cheater....
Bananas that the bonebreaker, which is literally a battering ram into combat that holds some guys on it, doesn't have re-rolling charges unlike basically everything else in the codex. Jesus. That's a massive difference in how good either is, especially the bonebreaker...
I’ve never seen it as a big problem to be honest, they can advance and charge with the Deffkilla Wartrike and/or charge 3D6” with a stratagem. There’s always a command re-roll as well if you need it. They would be better with ‘Ere We Go for sure but I don’t mind them without it.
xlDuke wrote: I’ve never seen it as a big problem to be honest, they can advance and charge with the Deffkilla Wartrike and/or charge 3D6” with a stratagem. There’s always a command re-roll as well if you need it. They would be better with ‘Ere We Go for sure but I don’t mind them without it.
Unless the Deffkilla comes down quite a bit in points in the next CA, he's a pretty meh HQ. Much better HQs to take before one of him. Hopefully he can come down to roughly the current price of a Warboss Biker w/ Klaw.
3d6 is nice, but having to spend upwards of 3 CP to land a charge on something that should charge as easily as the rest of the stuff in the codex (I get why the battlewagon might not have it, but the bonebreaker is a bit of a wtf) kind of sucks. Orks CP is very precious.
Dendarien wrote: They need to make the relic PK work on the Deffkilla as well. Simple fix that would be appreciated.
Depressingly, he could probably stay the same points and become good with that one change.
That’s how good KK is...
What if his Cutta gained range too? What an odd model.
It has a heavy flamer, a melta gun that’s short ranged, a power claw that’s weaker but more consistent, and a couple other random guns.
All must be taken. Zero customization.
I wonder if you could opt into this stuff he’d be better too
I think if he had S6 base like normal Warbosses do (at least making him S8, which is the optimal number at least against most vehicles), 2D6 for the flamer shots and 2D3 for the cuttas, and the boosticks had at least AP-1, he would be worth his current points. As is, he needs a point drop to at least 100, maybe 90, given how unwieldy his base is.
like i said a few pages ago, the wartrike is sitting in this really weird butterzone where it sucks at everything.
It cant shoot because its only gun thats a danger is 8" and dunno bout you guys but i never get that unless i advanced, im usually doing 9-11" charges with him. It cant kill numbers because only 5 attacks (why SM get 12+ attacks in a captain but a warboss doesnt is beyond me) It cant kill vehicles because it has S7 and low AP/D3 damage. It'll hurt them for sure, but rarely ever kill even a rhino. Its auras are limited to vehicles/bikes advance+charge. Doesnt even have the Warboss Breakin' Heads rule to at least be a mobile morale officer (heh..heh..)
The only way ive had him be even remotely a threat is if hes my warlord and has Fists on him. Thats it. And he usually dies immediately after because i simply can NOT keep him from being the closest model thanks to that huge footprint preventing my 3" consolidation from letting me get around him.
Wartrike needs a massive point cut or several rules/statboosts to be good.
Really, you wanna be within 4" for that damage reroll. But, really, the absolute best use I've could come up with for the Wartrike was to make him a Badmoonz Warlord and give him Da Best Armour and Supa Cybork for (probably) the most durable single model we can field. But, even then, you're pretty much relegated to suiciding him to slow something down for an extra turn or two. If he had longer range guns, using those and Billowing Exhaust Fumes could be useful for a mobile gun platform, but sadly no.
xlDuke wrote: I’ve never seen it as a big problem to be honest, they can advance and charge with the Deffkilla Wartrike and/or charge 3D6” with a stratagem. There’s always a command re-roll as well if you need it. They would be better with ‘Ere We Go for sure but I don’t mind them without it.
Unless the Deffkilla comes down quite a bit in points in the next CA, he's a pretty meh HQ. Much better HQs to take before one of him. Hopefully he can come down to roughly the current price of a Warboss Biker w/ Klaw.
3d6 is nice, but having to spend upwards of 3 CP to land a charge on something that should charge as easily as the rest of the stuff in the codex (I get why the battlewagon might not have it, but the bonebreaker is a bit of a wtf) kind of sucks. Orks CP is very precious.
I agree the Deffkilla is not a particularly good unit but it serves a function for a Battlewagon list. I figure either you’re Tellyporting a BW/Bonebreaka in which case you’re using the 3D6” charge stratagem whether you’ve got Ere We Go or not, or it’s one of many similar vehicles being deployed on the board - in which case you’re probably taking a Deffkilla just for the advance and charge ability. In either scenario you’ve got to set CP aside for your charges because they’re what your stratagem hinges on. As with all our lists efficient CP planning and expenditure is paramount because our army just doesn’t function at all well without it. CP is certainly precious for Orks because our stratagems are powerful, but it’s simple enough to have all the CP you need to make your list work in the early turns.
flandarz wrote: Really, you wanna be within 4" for that damage reroll. But, really, the absolute best use I've could come up with for the Wartrike was to make him a Badmoonz Warlord and give him Da Best Armour and Supa Cybork for (probably) the most durable single model we can field. But, even then, you're pretty much relegated to suiciding him to slow something down for an extra turn or two. If he had longer range guns, using those and Billowing Exhaust Fumes could be useful for a mobile gun platform, but sadly no.
Problem is we have a SSAG that currently badly wants the warlord trait.
Now if a gorkanaut could take Da Best Armour now we d be talking (I d love to have a buzzgob like character that would go inside his gorkanaut, like pask or the Tau hammerhead pilot there)
But 8 wounds won’t last long even with a 4++ and a 5+++
Putting you warlord trait on a warboss or deffkilla is just giving your opponent a free VP.
The traits benefits them massively, but they are also very easily killed. In a mission where the warlord can award multiple VP (like maelstrom), I'm quite happy not having to put it on a combat character with no durability to talk of.
I agree with both of you. There's a difference between "the best way to run something" and "you should do this". I've dropped the Wartrike altogether myself, because without the trait and Gubbin, he just ain't worth fielding for his cost, and with them he becomes "free VP" for your opponent.
I agree the Deffkilla is not a particularly good unit but it serves a function for a Battlewagon list. I figure either you’re Tellyporting a BW/Bonebreaka in which case you’re using the 3D6” charge stratagem whether you’ve got Ere We Go or not, or it’s one of many similar vehicles being deployed on the board - in which case you’re probably taking a Deffkilla just for the advance and charge ability. In either scenario you’ve got to set CP aside for your charges because they’re what your stratagem hinges on. As with all our lists efficient CP planning and expenditure is paramount because our army just doesn’t function at all well without it. CP is certainly precious for Orks because our stratagems are powerful, but it’s simple enough to have all the CP you need to make your list work in the early turns.
It feels rather like an omission, and unnecessarily makes the unit weaker. Ere we go is a MASSIVE buff in charge efficiency. Ork infantry can get a roughly equal or better charge rate for zero CP, just need a weirdboy (half the cost of a Wartrike and basically an autotake in most Ork lists anyway). Upwards of 5 CP just to get a charge off on a bonebreaker smells of a bad trade off, especially if you expect that to be coupled with another 120 point unit that also has to get into position. CP has a lot of opportunity cost, and having some spare around for emergency rerolls, counter charge is also nice.
It would be in my mind a lot more viable if I could do an either / or proposition here; Either, I use a wartrike to babysit the charges of my wagons, or I can just use the 3d6 charge strat for consistent charges on a particular wagon.
It's fine, though. I would absolutely shocked if a number of Ork units we discuss here don't get massive point reductions, simply so GW might start selling more models. And if they were even somewhat forward looking, a cheaper Ork army might actually be just fine in the new marine meta, because the codex actually has plenty of good tools, they are just probably too expensive per point.
Played a little 1k point game today. Apparently Buggies work really well when your opponent brings a bunch of Poison weapons that only wound you on 6s, and all their anti-armor either misses (despite a 3+ BS), or rolls 1s for damage.
I´m seriously thinking to start spamming GWIG and FB. Something on the lane of :
We are one of the major faction and we got last year an "Orktober" that was a joke: 5 overcosted, underwhelming, uncustomizable models and a, well yes good, codex that "unfortunately" made us skip CA 2018.
We got green tide and lootas nerfed, fair enough.
We are about to loose to legend, yes GW nobody that play this game competively in any way will allow legends models, 3 of the most used HQ (Big Mek KFF, Big Mek KFF on bike, Warboss on bike).
We are also gonna loose: Warboss in Mega Armour, Painboy on bike, Kommandos with Eavy Weapon, 2 Nobz wepons, 6 Spanner customization, 5 Mek customization, Skorchas, Warbuggie, Watrakk, Big Bomm on Koptas, Big Gunz, Rokkit Luncha on Battlewagon, Kustom Mega Blasta on Killa Kanz and other weapons on the HQ are left.
We have left a 94 poins warboss that hits like a Space marines Sergeant, a 119 4" Mek that cant keep up with the only job he has and a 150mm bike that is menacing as a newborn Calf and a T4 4W 6++ wizard that blows himself up like an illegal firework most of the time.
Once you used to make multi kit, or customizable kit or even suggest us modellist to kitbash.
How about making a new Ghazghkull that we can use also for a boss in Mega armour and a Mek in Mega armour, so we dont need to buy a 3 Meganobz kit to salvage an HQ?
How about making a decent Warboss on bike kit, so we can use as a Painboy and a KFF kit?
How about making something for the hobbist and tournament players, that push this hobby to be known worldwide and inspire younger generation to be better players, better modellist and buy more stuff (let´s not forget about C.R.E.A.M.)
How about giving us the tools to be a challenging opponent, instead of a target to practice your new Space marines dices. How about making a game where nothing have 93% chances to succed, and help us to remember that it is a dice game?
How about giving us something to keep enjoy this game for real?
Instead of giving us a motherloving $55 AUD, 25 €, $40 CAD, ￥4,700, $65 NZD, 220 NOK, 240 SEK, 200 DKK, £20, 35 US$ useless red GRETCHIN ?!
Emicrania wrote: I´m seriously thinking to start spamming GWIG and FB. Something on the lane of :
We are one of the major faction and we got last year an "Orktober" that was a joke......
Instead of giving us a motherloving $55 AUD, 25 €, $40 CAD, ￥4,700, $65 NZD, 220 NOK, 240 SEK, 200 DKK, £20, 35 US$ useless red GRETCHIN ?!
Spam away. I'll always support customers contacting GW with their opinion.
I snapped the red gobbo right up though. Hoping if it sells well it sends a message that a full revolushun army might be profitable.
The deffkilla is garbage. He needs rules adjustments I think, rather than a price cut.
For funzies has anyone ever compared the Squig Buggy (just shy of 150 pts) to a Lord Disco (160ish)? Like anyone, ever. Including the supposed play testers? Surely not.
While there are a lot of valid points in that list, I suggest waiting until after PA3 and CA before going on rage train again.
Ork player have become infamous for being whiny because there are long threads about how we have it worst (we don't) after basically every release GW does.
Oh, and a warning for all who are planning on getting the red gobbo: He doesn't come with any rules. Rumor has it that he is just going to be a fancy objective marker for a special mission.
And even then, orks were just a stupid strong gatekeeper army. If you brought a list to deal with eldar, tau, admech, or any marine you probably got your face whacked off by pretty much any ork list because they played so radically different. But then the main things causing that got nerfed and the new marine dex happened. Orks were VERY commonly in the top 8 or even top 4, but rarely actually won overall. Least that i noticed.
Im still eagerly waiting for CA19 and hoping to god they drop a ton of points on half our gak. Pretty much the entire FA and all except perhaps Badrukk for HQs need a price drop. Even the Weirdboy imo needs a slight drop, he simply dies WAY too easy to the mass abundance of snipers these days and now that marines have ignore-LOS snipers we cant even hide him (seriously who the gak thought that was a good idea). There are numerous other issues but i dont see them being fixed via point drops and i dont think CA does any radical rule changings.
The SM needs to go up 15-20% in points, some rule need nerf (again WTF is the point of rolling dice with 90%+ accuracy rate?) And all the old codex need buffs. I own BA, Nids and Daemons. Can't tell you how much hope will be crushed for me by this CA....
I'm really hoping the Boss on Bike gets spared; he has an official FW model that sells well, and it's not like balancing a freaking Biker boss should take any effort. It's not like some weird janky FW model, it's something Orks have had for decades in their codex. The walking boss is just so, so bad by comparison.
I have the feeling that GW probably didn't understand the beast they were unleashing and the CA might be disappointing; it might be another 6-12 months of complete domination, depending how much they throw into their mid-year FAQ. If they actually were forward looking, a lot of armies might get some drops at least to compensate for the meta. SM being good is fine, but it's not healthy if they are getting 75%+ of top 4 placings.
Orks might drop a tier here in the interim, but we probably still have some tourny placing lists... they just might not be that fun to field. That one Ork player who piloted the 20 MANz has been attempting stuff like 360 grot lists. Hard for a repulsor to make up its points if it has to kill 110 grots.
Now that sounds like a NIGHTMARE to play with, but the Ork codex does still have some tricks it can probably pull.
I mostly play with friends / non-competitively so I probably won't be locked out of legend models, but yeah. I feel like some lists I've been brewing which seem really fun to play (2 squads of Nobs w/ Kustom shootas and Big Choppas in 1500 points) are going away. Real shame. If they just want me to field 3 SAGs and other shooty jank, they are certainly pushing me towards that.
I'm sure if you put down 15-18 Smasha Guns and 3 SAGs, you'll be able to roll in the meta. But god that's SO boring.
Yeah, with the advent of the new design paradigm that the new SM book and supplements have established, Orks are in a far worse position than when we were first released as a proper 8th ed codex. Tying things in combat is not nearly as viable with shock assault and dakkaboats having fly (curse you repulsor executioners!) being a thing, alongside snipers being everywhere. The Ork codex needs a serious revision for some of the pricing for weaponry (i.e. rokkits and big shootas), and unfortunately some of the unit rules themselves 9looking at you burna boyz), but unfortunately that won't change anytime soon.
I don't necessarily think we're in a bad place, but we have so many units that are too expensive for their durability and damage output. CA could definitely help there, but we're 100% gonna see some increases too (particularly the Smasha, but maybe even Lootas and Gretchin). We also have a problem with some "useless" units, Kulturz, Powers, and Strats, which likely won't get fixed until a new Edition, if GW doesn't give everyone the Marine treatment.
Imho QRaise gretchin to 4 pt is an abomination.
Lootas are fine as they are after the nerf.
Smasha per se, are NOT a problem . 31 points for 1d3 s2d6 and 6w t5 5+ is such an offensive gamble and an easy KP that sometimes, especially in itc, all they do is giving up kill and kill more. The problem is 18 smashaguns. Maybe a Max 3 unit x 3 , so 9, would feel more adequate
I agree with all of these sentiments. Unfortunately, GW rarely looks for the reasons WHY things are good and just goes full-ham on point increases. They see everyone taking Gretchin, and those lists winning a lot, and say "guess Gretchin are overpowered" instead of "I guess Gretchin help make mediocre to good units better by fueling Stratagems".
Emicrania wrote: Imho QRaise gretchin to 4 pt is an abomination.
Lootas are fine as they are after the nerf.
Smasha per se, are NOT a problem . 31 points for 1d3 s2d6 and 6w t5 5+ is such an offensive gamble and an easy KP that sometimes, especially in itc, all they do is giving up kill and kill more. The problem is 18 smashaguns. Maybe a Max 3 unit x 3 , so 9, would feel more adequate
This. People are taking grechin because boyz aren't doing their job well - whether it be at 12, 20 or 30. All they can do is distract the enemy from shooting something more valuable and generate a ~200 point advantage through green tide.
I'm sure gretchin would get pushed out if truck or wagon boyz were better. On top of that, you usually see 3 units of boyz and 3 or 6 units of gretchin now. That's pretty healthy if you consider that there are just two choices of troops.
Lootas are by no means mandatory anymore, we have seen multiple lists using tank bustas or flash gits in their place. Having three units with similar roles be interchangeable is exactly how it shot be. Any nerf would just kill them.
Smashas are a weird problem. You get the right amount of shooting for their points, but way to many wounds when spammed. Reducing unit size to 3 would actually be an awesome fix, but I fear their might just be a points increase coming instead, which will then just make orks move to KMK or tractor cannon spam.
In general, mek guns would be in a much better place when you upscale them to roughly twice the points per gun, increasing firepower accordingly.
Grimskul wrote: Yeah, with the advent of the new design paradigm that the new SM book and supplements have established, Orks are in a far worse position than when we were first released as a proper 8th ed codex. Tying things in combat is not nearly as viable with shock assault and dakkaboats having fly (curse you repulsor executioners!) being a thing, alongside snipers being everywhere. The Ork codex needs a serious revision for some of the pricing for weaponry (i.e. rokkits and big shootas), and unfortunately some of the unit rules themselves 9looking at you burna boyz), but unfortunately that won't change anytime soon.
I have been saying since 8th dropped that Rokkitz and Big Shoota's are either heavily overpriced or in need of a heavy buff. Rokkitz need a hefty price cut. 12pts for a single shot ranged 24 weapon on a model with BS5 is just absurd. For the Big Shoota, I am of the opinion that it can stay at its current price, but you need to basically double its RoF and even then it would be questionable to take. Kustom Shoota's need a bump as well, they are in a bad place and need some love.
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flandarz wrote: I don't necessarily think we're in a bad place, but we have so many units that are too expensive for their durability and damage output. CA could definitely help there, but we're 100% gonna see some increases too (particularly the Smasha, but maybe even Lootas and Gretchin). We also have a problem with some "useless" units, Kulturz, Powers, and Strats, which likely won't get fixed until a new Edition, if GW doesn't give everyone the Marine treatment.
Smasha's are fine where they are. They are glass cannons and actually do their job relatively well. Lootas are not OP in the slightest, and the irony is that in order to field them you need at a minimum 30 to 90pts of Grotz to shield them or they die turn 1. Grotz....If you increase the points cost of Grotz then you might as well just admit the point of orkz is to be a NPC race to let the speese mehreens win every game. At 4ppm a grot is the same cost as a Imperial Guardsman who has better Movement, WS, more S, T and leadership and a better save. Their weapon is also 24 as opposed to 12 and is rapid fire. Ohh, and throw in a CC and those IG are laying down some serious firepower.
if Grotz need a points adjustment at all its DOWN to 2ppm not UP to 4. Grotz are literally garbage in every single way possible EXCEPT to sit on an objective, give CP and be used as a meatshield.
Jidmah wrote: Smashas are a weird problem. You get the right amount of shooting for their points, but way to many wounds when spammed. Reducing unit size to 3 would actually be an awesome fix, but I fear their might just be a points increase coming instead, which will then just make orks move to KMK or tractor cannon spam.
In general, mek guns would be in a much better place when you upscale them to roughly twice the points per gun, increasing firepower accordingly.
Would also mean basically 50-50 you get one shot out of your mek guns. Other half the time you are lucky if you get to shoot with 1. Killing 8 mek guns a turn isn't much of an issue these days.
Big Shootas need a damn AP on them.
Heavy versions of the troop gun usually gets an AP, ours doesnt.
With their current RoF i dont really have a problem landing hits, or wounding, but its not enough to punch through 3+/2+ armor since thats the bulk of what we face these days.
Had they been AP-1 i dont think i would be complaining about them currently.
Guys, I agree that none of those things need a nerf. I just think that GW will nerf them anyway, because it's GW.
8 a turn? Maybe, but it won't be cost-effective to do so. Mek Gunz are in a weird place where there's not really a cost-effective way to take them out. From the 5T, 6W, and 4+Sv to splitting into different units on deployment, there's a pretty big window for under-damaging or over-damaging them and not a lot of weapons that wouldn't prefer to be shooting something else.
For example, 15 BadMoonz Lootaz, double-shooting, are gonna kill about 4 Mek Gunz a turn on average (after shooting twice) and the chance they'll over or under kill one of them is pretty high. So, you'd have used a 250+ pt unit (and 1 CP) to take out 124 pts of Mek Gunz
Jidmah wrote: Smashas are a weird problem. You get the right amount of shooting for their points, but way to many wounds when spammed. Reducing unit size to 3 would actually be an awesome fix, but I fear their might just be a points increase coming instead, which will then just make orks move to KMK or tractor cannon spam.
In general, mek guns would be in a much better place when you upscale them to roughly twice the points per gun, increasing firepower accordingly.
Would also mean basically 50-50 you get one shot out of your mek guns. Other half the time you are lucky if you get to shoot with 1. Killing 8 mek guns a turn isn't much of an issue these days.
Killing 8 mek guns a turn is not a problem if you can bring 18. Except for your wallet, of course.
That's issue if you have just one unit shooting. Usually people have many so if one big unit splits and underkill's some odd lascannon here or there finishes. Helverin's are popping 2 a turn. And shuriken cannon storm just munches them. 6 is as good as quaranteed death. 8 something might survive. Record i have had is lose all 12. Bleh. Better load with gorkanauts etc along as well
flandarz wrote: Guys, I agree that none of those things need a nerf. I just think that GW will nerf them anyway, because it's GW.
8 a turn? Maybe, but it won't be cost-effective to do so. Mek Gunz are in a weird place where there's not really a cost-effective way to take them out. From the 5T, 6W, and 4+Sv to splitting into different units on deployment, there's a pretty big window for under-damaging or over-damaging them and not a lot of weapons that wouldn't prefer to be shooting something else.
For example, 15 BadMoonz Lootaz, double-shooting, are gonna kill about 4 Mek Gunz a turn on average (after shooting twice) and the chance they'll over or under kill one of them is pretty high. So, you'd have used a 250+ pt unit (and 1 CP) to take out 124 pts of Mek Gunz
Agreed. When I was getting back into 8th I used some mek guns, and my opponent focussed on them as he had read so many things about them - and my trukks all emerged from the enemies turn 1 unscathed. I won that game.
Jidmah wrote: Smashas are a weird problem. You get the right amount of shooting for their points, but way to many wounds when spammed. Reducing unit size to 3 would actually be an awesome fix, but I fear their might just be a points increase coming instead, which will then just make orks move to KMK or tractor cannon spam.
In general, mek guns would be in a much better place when you upscale them to roughly twice the points per gun, increasing firepower accordingly.
Would also mean basically 50-50 you get one shot out of your mek guns. Other half the time you are lucky if you get to shoot with 1. Killing 8 mek guns a turn isn't much of an issue these days.
Killing 8 mek guns a turn is not a problem if you can bring 18. Except for your wallet, of course.
Point being if they limit them to 9 max you have 50-50 of actually getting to shoot more than 1-3 once. Half the time they just soak up at fire for a turn and that's it.
Random thought - what about putting mek guns in a tellyporta?
they don't split until they deploy, and you can have 6 guns positioned wherever you like (even behind the enemy), in response to their turn 1-2 (depending who goes first), giving you more space to deploy them. Plus, you get a full battery of shots, albeit at BS5+ rather than 4+, and have your first turn to try and take out or draw out the stuff that can hurt them. They could also plop on an objective, which is always useful.
isnt generally the point of them is you want the anti-vehicle crap to target them and not the nauts/wagons because theyre so laughably cheap for their durability?
I doubt grots will get a change. They are perfectly suited as is. 4 ppm without any statline boost would be beyond stupid.
If Orks get point cost increases, it'll be on other units. Good point re: mek guns, though. I think effectively HALVING our wounds for similar firepower and cost (if Smasha Guns go up) is a big enough nerf, though, but it'll be interesting Mek Gunz will largely be the same. I can't imagine them pushing up traktor kannons or KMBs, as they are not fine for their cost.
Fun fact: I love how traktor kannons are basically mobile artillery, as they get zero penalty for moving and shooting. Shame they move 3" a turn at most, but I still find it funny.
Big Shootas are trash. I understand why they think they are worth 5 points a model, but you need to buy two just to expect a wound on a t3-5 model. When a Big Shoota could get a lucky shot and kill a terminator or marine, it was nice. But with so many multiwound models out there so you aren't really getting a lucky random dead model, and with the fact you can teleport your boyz ahead, I'd rather just save the 5 points and take a Shoota. It's not that much worse and it's free.
At AP-1, it might have an argument for it's cost. As is, it should probably be 2-3 points. And it would still probably rarely see use.
Rokkits are much better, but overpriced. The fact you can combo it with stuff like Deathskullz means they are actually pretty accurate, they can threaten basically any vehicle in the game, and they are effective against heavy infantry. They should probably come down to 8 ppm, because we are paying a premium for it on our BS5 models. Tankbustas should probably increase in base cost (I'm not super bothered by their current cost) to compensate.
Rokkits i feel need to be careful with making cheaper. At 12p each they feel a bit pricy, but they hit so dang hard that sometimes they just shred things. 8p both sounds about right and too low to me. Burnas/skorchas should drop drastically though i feel. Burnas are a fething joke with D3 shots (oh but you get the Ap in melee! on 3x cost boyz with no extra defenses or numbers so 2 attacks each at S4....big whoop. A squad of Nobz with ChoppaChoppa does more damage than that...). Both of them have the same major issue though of that range is so bad and the units that can use them are so squishy you simply CANT use them more than once, and theyre nowhere near strong enough to justify a "one and done" attack. I often forget my gork even HAS a skorcha because i rarely am even close enough to use the dang thing.
Can't put Mek Gunz into a Tellyporta because they have the GRETCHIN keyword. Same for Kanz. Sadly.
I'm sure people CAN wipe 8 Gunz a turn, but that much firepower is gonna mean they'll be ignoring other threats on the board, and I consider that a good trade. Anything that diverts attention from a mob of Boyz I can Da Jump up is a solid investment, especially at that low of a point cost.
Burnas (and Skorchas) really need a +2" range, and even then they might be over-priced by about 3-4 pts. Auto-hits and AP don't mean diddly if the unit consistently dies before getting in a shot.
Boyz... ain't too bad at 7ppm, but I DO miss the 6ppm days...
Agreed that boyz at 7ppm is kinda stupid but at least in 8th they arent "bad" either.
The bulk of the reason they arent performing too well falls on lack of single PK being a powerhouse, which isnt gonna come back either. The way 8th is structured the PK would have to be unfairly strong/cheap to allow a SINGLE nob with it to be a severe threat again.
I'm almost wishing they'd bump them to 5+ armor and stay at 7ppm. Especially since so many mass ap1-2 shots are cropping up. I find myself dajumping around my morkanaut or better jet wazbom rather than as close as i can to something i wanna charge because then i get a 5++ (and odds are im not getitng that charge anyway).
Vineheart01 wrote: Rokkits i feel need to be careful with making cheaper. At 12p each they feel a bit pricy, but they hit so dang hard that sometimes they just shred things. 8p both sounds about right and too low to me.
Burnas/skorchas should drop drastically though i feel. Burnas are a fething joke with D3 shots (oh but you get the Ap in melee! on 3x cost boyz with no extra defenses or numbers so 2 attacks each at S4....big whoop. A squad of Nobz with ChoppaChoppa does more damage than that...). Both of them have the same major issue though of that range is so bad and the units that can use them are so squishy you simply CANT use them more than once, and theyre nowhere near strong enough to justify a "one and done" attack.
I often forget my gork even HAS a skorcha because i rarely am even close enough to use the dang thing.
I think that's more anecdotal; exploding Rokkits can sometimes produce crazy results (3 rokkits hitting 5 times or something is nuts), but on average they aren't that good. It's just they are actually impactful if they hit, as they do 3 damage. You still need to have 3 rokkit boyz to hit on average, for a whooping 36 point upgrade to the unit (and if you include the boy, 57 points).
It really depends on the platform. A shoota boy w/ Rokkit is 19 points total; really not that great except maybe on a Deathskull MSU boy squad. On a Tankbusta, rokkits shine, as you get them cheaper, they really benefit from shoot twice, *and* they get bonuses against vehicles.
Then you look at them on things like Deffkoptas, and wonder why anyone would spend 52 points for 2 rokkit shots (at a grand total of 26 points per rokkit). Woof.
Making it cheaper for a Shoota boy is good, making it cheaper for a Tankbusta is probably bad.
Burnas are full on useless, yes. Too few attacks even if you magically get them into range, on a boy body. Woof.
Boyz are in a weird spot for me. Coming back from 3rd/4th edition, Boy squads with Nobz were very good; Choppas reduced armour to 4+ save at best, and Power Klaws could trash vehicles, monsters, and heavy infantry alike. It was hard to shift a big squad of Boyz, where in this environment, it's incredibly easy for most armies to have many, simple answers to them.
Reducing their cost would be nice, but they still probably wouldn't kill much regardless. They are there to catch bullets and try to contest objectives.
What I miss most, is the days when painboyz had a 5+fnp. Add a powerclaw that doesn't have the negative modifier and we're back to where boys can do something and have stayingpower.
I also hope the buggies get a point reduction, I love my scrapjets but for 40 points more you get a Lord Disco... wtf? Actually, points reduction for most vehicles would be good.
The FNP drop across the board made no sense to me.
Why nerf the crap out of the second layer of protection in the same edition you introduced multi-damage weapons, which makes it weaker by default?
Its why i swear the way they intended it was if you FNP a failed save, you block all the damage it would have caused. But they worded it like crap and never bothered to fix it so we got what we got now, a rule that is largely for most factions pretty pointless.
I always thought that, fluff wise, Boyz and infantry should have a 6+++ as standard.
A painboy would then boost that to 5+++
For me, that'd help get Boyz back on the table.
As for burnaz, at a bare minimum they'd need d6 shots, maybe a strategem to boost the range?
Boyz: With the intro of SPEESE MEHREENS ON CRACK, we need them back to 6ppm OR give them a 5+ save and leave them at 7ppm. Wait until the IG get that codex bump and people are going to go nuts at the idea of guardsmen only being 4ppm. OHH, and give ALL orkz 6in movement again. The fact that a guardsmen is faster is embarrassing.
Grotz: Nerf them and basically just tell Orkz that you don't give a feth about them. If boyz don't get fixed and grotz get a nerf its just a blatant attempt at weakening orkz barring some major codex changes.
Rokkitz: I've done the math a few times but the gist of it is that a Space Marine with a Missile Launcher is better across the board and has access to a lot more force multipliers for his weapon. Rokkitz need to drop down to 8pts at the most, honestly at 5ppm in 7th I was having to decide whether or not to take them or not.
Big Shoota: Double its shot output and drop it to 4pts
Burnaz: The only way to fix burna's is to give them a 4+ Save, 3 attacks base and increase their Firepower to D6 instead of D3. At that point, a suicide squad of them in a trukk wouldn't be that bad a strat, if they blow the trukk you can upgrade their armor to give you a 3+.
r_squared wrote: I always thought that, fluff wise, Boyz and infantry should have a 6+++ as standard.
A painboy would then boost that to 5+++
It certainly would up their survivability, but not as much as you might think.
5++ and a 6+++ save right now means there is a 55.5% chance of failing both rolls ( 2/3 * 5/6 ). Just under a 4+ save.
(2/3 * 2/3) makes that 44.4% chance to fail both.
It's helpful but I think its not going to fix boyz issues.
I think the bigger problem to be honest is that the KFF needs to have units *wholly* within the 9". This actually makes it rather troublesome to keep coverage once you start moving. Painboy aura is at least incredibly easy to apply to your line as long as you trail back. If KFF was half the unit had to be within 9" like it used to be, it would probably be a lot better.
There was a rumor in 7th that we were getting a 6+ army wide FNP instead of the armor. This of course didnt happen but it made sense.
Ork tshirt save is mostly explained by how tough their hides are, not the gubbinz they wear. That sounds more like a FNP thing, not an armor.
Yes right now its the Snakebiters thing, but A) vehicles wouldnt get this, as its orky toughness explaining it and machines aint resilient in that way, and B) Snikebiters probably are the best candidate for needing a full kulture overhaul anyway. I legitmately laughed when i saw Deathskullz and then saw Snakebites...wth made GW think those were even remotely on the same level?? lol (Unless of course like i mentioned earlier the 6+++ was supposed to block all damage from a failed save, and bad wording and failure to correct it on GW's part lead us to what it actually is atm)
Da Boyz, 3rd place with foot warboss, runtherd, stormboyz and a metric ton of smashas.
Altanta: 5th place (but undefeated), list not available.
Fields of Damnation: 3rd place with the list above. Most notable are the kommandoz and trukks with tank bustas.
Evil Suns/Bad Moons/Death Skulls seems to be settling in as the most competitive combination for clans, few run anything else.
flandarz wrote: Can't put Mek Gunz into a Tellyporta because they have the GRETCHIN keyword. Same for Kanz. Sadly.
I'm sure people CAN wipe 8 Gunz a turn, but that much firepower is gonna mean they'll be ignoring other threats on the board, and I consider that a good trade. Anything that diverts attention from a mob of Boyz I can Da Jump up is a solid investment, especially at that low of a point cost.
Ummm...Since when shooting boyz with multi damage weapons has been good idea? Okay so there was the game when dark eldar declared "16 dark lances vs that boyz unit" but that's because there was no other option to shoot anyway. Boyz or...well boyz.
Thing is most of those guns shooting at mek guns are the kind of guns that aren't that efficient at removing boyz. People have plenty of those as you need to one shot knights.
^ That. Multi-Damage weapons aren't efficient at shooting Mek Gunz either. These are guns that, as you said, are designed to take out Knights. You know, the T7-8 models with Invulns and a dozen or two Wounds. And you're using them to take out T5, W6, Sv4+ models.
Jidmah wrote: You are still assuming that shooting dark lances at mek guns is somehow efficient.
More efficient than boyz. I'm assuming opponent isn't custom tailoring list vs orks but does TAC list. And TAC lists tend to have these things called "anti tank weapons". Which are wasted on boyz but funnily enough works vs mek guns which are for all intents and purposes vehicles. Guess where thus the multi damage weapons shoot? Boyz? Or vehicles?
I have yet to see anybody fire AT weapons vs boyz if there's vehicles out there.
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flandarz wrote: ^ That. Multi-Damage weapons aren't efficient at shooting Mek Gunz either. These are guns that, as you said, are designed to take out Knights. You know, the T7-8 models with Invulns and a dozen or two Wounds. And you're using them to take out T5, W6, Sv4+ models.
W6 is more than W1. If he shoots that AT weapon with multiple damage vs boyz that's one dead boy with wasted damage. Against mek gun that damage stat isnt' wasted.
Oh yeah right. Opponent will simply not shoot AT weapons(which all lists have) at all Right. It makes perfect sense!
The thing is they might not be optimal but the mek guns are lot better target than boyz, all lists have AT weapons and so even not being optimal will still result in death of easily 8 mek guns when alternative was shooting W1 7 pts boyz. Weeeeee! THAT is smart idea! Sure! Absolutely!
Well, it depends. Most AA guns are S8, so they'd be Wounding Boyz on 2s and the Gunz on 3s. With 3+BS, and an average of 3.5 damage per Wound, it would take 4 shots (on average) to take out a Mek Gun. Multiplied by 8, and that's 24 shots to remove 248 pts of Gunz, which would deal an average of 9 (or so) damage a turn to T7 targets with a 5++ Save.
Alternatively, they could target the Boyz. The same 24 shots would get rid of 13 Boyz, on average. That's enough to force those Boyz to make a Morale Test, if there's not another Blob nearby. It's also 91 pts, which is a lot less points removed, but you've also dropped them out of +1 Attack size.
Against the same T7 (with a 4+ Save), the Boyz can deal around 12 damage a turn, between shooting and charging. And, without a special ability, they prevent that target from shooting in your opponent's shooting phase. So more damage and a "debuff".
While AA is more efficient against Gunz than Boyz, Boyz are more dangerous than Gunz against almost any target. So, even in the case where you have no other armor to target with your guns, it probably gonna be better for you to just target the Boyz.
Jidmah wrote: You are still assuming that shooting dark lances at mek guns is somehow efficient.
More efficient than boyz. I'm assuming opponent isn't custom tailoring list vs orks but does TAC list. And TAC lists tend to have these things called "anti tank weapons". Which are wasted on boyz but funnily enough works vs mek guns which are for all intents and purposes vehicles. Guess where thus the multi damage weapons shoot? Boyz? Or vehicles?
I have yet to see anybody fire AT weapons vs boyz if there's vehicles out there.
Two ravagers with dark lances (280 points) kill one 31 point smasha gun on average, or 28 points worth of boyz, 36 points of storm boyz, 68 points of tankbustas or lootas. Not bothering to do they math for MANz, nobz or flash gits, but I think you get the point. Firing dark lances at elite ork units is more efficient than shooting smashas. An anti-tank weapon is not an anti-tank weapon because of it's high strength, AP or damage, but because it is efficient at killing high toughness multi-wound models. But since dark lances are not efficient at shooting mek guns at all, shooting them over any ork infantry besides boyz is a bad decision, and even shooting boyz isn't terrible if it gains you an advantage like wiping the unit so it can't tide, VP or higher casualties from morale. The main reason why opponents still shoot smashas is because otherwise they get smashed to bits by their shooting output.
Outside of that, boyz serve exactly one purpose and that is charging from deep strike, where they either manage to wrap something and can't be shot, or they don't and they end up in range of every bolter, shuriken catapult and lansgun, meaning they are dead before the enemy even starts thinking about what to shoot with his big guns. Numarines can clear out three units of boyz per turn without breaking a sweat.
The thing is they might not be optimal but the mek guns are lot better target than boyz, all lists have AT weapons and so even not being optimal will still result in death of easily 8 mek guns when alternative was shooting W1 7 pts boyz. Weeeeee! THAT is smart idea! Sure! Absolutely!
To kill 8 mek guns(248 points) with d6 weapons that have at least S6 and AP-2, you need 35 BS 3+ shots on average (700 points worth of lances or 875 points of lascannons/AML), which would have killed 20 boyz and another 10 from morale, for 210 or 2 CP. It's not as much better as you'd think. And of course, it gets better there is anything but boyz and gretchin to shoot, for example if you clear out the grot screen of a loota mob and then aim those lances their way.
Da Boyz, 3rd place with foot warboss, runtherd, stormboyz and a metric ton of smashas.
Altanta: 5th place (but undefeated), list not available.
Fields of Damnation: 3rd place with the list above. Most notable are the kommandoz and trukks with tank bustas.
Evil Suns/Bad Moons/Death Skulls seems to be settling in as the most competitive combination for clans, few run anything else.
It's the optimal setup from what I can tell.
All 3 have probably the optimal bonuses to certain units (like, SAGs are clearly best on Deathskullz, Lootas/Tankbustas as Bad Moonz for Showing off, etc). And you also probably need at least 3 batallions at 2000 anyway, so why not give yourself the options?
The codex doesn’t really give you enough incentive to go mono culture outside of Freebootas
What's interesting is that BOY spam is still winning. I really wonder if these guys avoided Space Marine battles, because I just can't see Boy spam doing well against SM. They hit too hard with too many shots, it's a meatgrinder.
From what I observed, boyz max out at 3, some people get away with just two units or even none if they bring enough gretchin.
I guess its better to call it greentide, but I would say when making a list, it really feels hard to not go with a TON of boyz, or basically zero, as they require so much support in the form of KFF and Painboy and Warboss that makes them even more expensive. Compared to like Mega Nobz, which probably can be fielded with zero support realistically and be fine.
Combination of KFF Mek, Painboy, and 3 full boy squads is pushing close to 900 points. And they wonder why we use grots a lot...
In the top 4 lists you see, it seems to always be about this:
3-4 30 man Boy squads.
Grots to fill out other 2 bats
3 SAG Some combination of Warboss, KFF, and/or Painboy to support the boyz.
Lootas and/or Tankbustas.
12-18 Smasha Gunz.
I am wondering if the Boy portion of this list will fall out of favour because Space Marines have zero trouble killing large boy blobs even when paired with a KFF/Painboy. And when you have 2-4 wounds and a 2+ or 3+, you don't even care if they charge you.
Are there any other kind of list archetypes that have done well?
Ive been intentionally hiding my boyz to try and use them T3+ Probably because the main marine force i come across is White Scars and that extra damage bullgak makes them autowin against anything that ISNT a boy. Nothing more frustraiting than having a gork get killed from full to dead by a bunch of S5 AP1 attacks purely because of that stupid 2D bonus (hurt it, yes, flatout kill it, no that should never happen. Were talking about a marine unit that pays for extra attacks and nothing else suddenly given +1 AP and +1 Damage...yeah totally fair).
Makes me wish standard reserves were still a thing. Pay no CP, T2+ they just walk on the board. One of the white scars players i face got wise to this and started literally ignoring my nauts to try and remove my boyz hiding behind them/around corners lol
Vineheart01 wrote: Ive been intentionally hiding my boyz to try and use them T3+
Probably because the main marine force i come across is White Scars and that extra damage bullgak makes them autowin against anything that ISNT a boy. Nothing more frustraiting than having a gork get killed from full to dead by a bunch of S5 AP1 attacks purely because of that stupid 2D bonus (hurt it, yes, flatout kill it, no that should never happen. Were talking about a marine unit that pays for extra attacks and nothing else suddenly given +1 AP and +1 Damage...yeah totally fair).
Makes me wish standard reserves were still a thing. Pay no CP, T2+ they just walk on the board. One of the white scars players i face got wise to this and started literally ignoring my nauts to try and remove my boyz hiding behind them/around corners lol
Don't we still have that ability? They would just walk off the back edge then.
Theres no rules for it that im aware of. Minor exception being some missions DO cover it, but not as a general "any game mode" rule.
Only missions that come off the top of my head that allow it are vigilius campaign stuff, and they are horrifically imbalanced lol. My casual group recently did a campaign for it and we found VERY quick that all except 1 maybe 2 are so unfair its not even fun. (Canisters dropping one is the only one i'd say was fun, and it actually forces 2/3 of your list to not be on the board at the start)
From what I observed, boyz max out at 3, some people get away with just two units or even none if they bring enough gretchin.
I guess its better to call it greentide, but I would say when making a list, it really feels hard to not go with a TON of boyz, or basically zero, as they require so much support in the form of KFF and Painboy and Warboss that makes them even more expensive. Compared to like Mega Nobz, which probably can be fielded with zero support realistically and be fine.
Combination of KFF Mek, Painboy, and 3 full boy squads is pushing close to 900 points. And they wonder why we use grots a lot...
In the top 4 lists you see, it seems to always be about this:
3-4 30 man Boy squads. Grots to fill out other 2 bats 3 SAG Some combination of Warboss, KFF, and/or Painboy to support the boyz. Lootas and/or Tankbustas. 12-18 Smasha Gunz.
I am wondering if the Boy portion of this list will fall out of favour because Space Marines have zero trouble killing large boy blobs even when paired with a KFF/Painboy. And when you have 2-4 wounds and a 2+ or 3+, you don't even care if they charge you.
Are there any other kind of list archetypes that have done well?
That... doesn't exactly match what I have seen, checking Panda's weekly round-up for almost a year now.
Boyz are exclusively delivered via deep strike (da jump, tellyport and green tide) and therefore used in Evil Suns detachments, because you really want that +1 to charge. For that reason, taking more than three doesn't make sense, since you would not put them into your other detachment and thus lose another 215 points that could be spend on other units. Some drop the third unit to make room for more dakka, but no one runs 4 mobs. Even the guy from last week had 2 mobz of boyz and 1 mob of storm boyz, if you count those as boyz. Boyz get no support, but only serve to threaten and lock up units or exploit weaknesses. They are utility first and foremost, damage second.
The green tide archetype requires at least six units of boyz, usually supported by storm boyz. However, that build is dead since any opponent can ask the TO for a chess clock - it's impossible to win a game when you can't do anything for the last two turns.
SAGs is often enough just the SSAG but sometimes with 1-2 regular SAGs to go along. 3 SAGs is by no means mandatory. KFF is regularly seen, but is not used to protect boyz, but mek guns. I can't remember when I last saw a pain boy that wasn't Grotznik. Instead, you always have 1-3 weird boyz for da jump, fists of gork and smite. So the HQ formula is more like: SSAG+Killa Klaw warboss+Da jump Weirdboy and then pick three from the following: SAG, KFF, Badrukk, weird boy.
As for shooting units, Lootas, Tank Bustas and Flash Gits are equivalent options, tank bustas can be used in addition to one of the other two if you tellyport-suicide them.
12-18 smashas seems about right, though quite a few players get away with just 12.
The archetypes that vary wildly from this can be considered flukes where a rogue build hit the right opponents, had hot dice, cases exceptional generalship or because they caught their meta off-guard. None of them could reproduce their results.
I've not used mek guns all that much (I usually need the HS slots for flashgits and battlewagons) and haven't done badly at all, but that said I've not played any tournaments (though my last 2 games were against a friends tournament list, which I royally thrashed).
I really want to make stormboys work, they are my next project! (I'm going to magnetise some boys to fit backpacks, so I can make use of the masses of boys I already have!).
My above posts refers to trying to win (grand) tournaments only. As soon as you go down the competitive ladder by a bit, plenty of options open up, unless you have that guy with brand new grey IH executioners in your group.
Jidmah wrote: My above posts refers to trying to win (grand) tournaments only. As soon as you go down the competitive ladder by a bit, plenty of options open up, unless you have that guy with brand new grey IH executioners in your group.
I’m happy with your definition.
I question if it’ll survive much longer, though. Boyz seem checked by space marines between Auspex scans, aggressive assault centurions, and just the general Bolter fire they can bare. I honestly wonder if a straight up swap to grots would be better if their sole purpose is to just tie up objectives.
It's really up to PA and CA right now. We have plenty of tools to handle the new marines (KBB and Scrapjet, for example), but most of them are just too expensive to form into a good list. Primaris armies were already a PITA to deal with as orks, and they got tons of power piled onto that. New stratagems, psychic power or point drops could change that.
I also hope that the 4 pts grot rumor is just made up, because it would change nothing about how we use gretchin and just steal points from us.
The 4pt grot thing if it came to be would basically seal the deal that GW gives 2 gaks about xenos.
A grot is NOT worth the same as a guardsmen. Not even close. Even as it is, the 1pt difference is a massive boost in effectiveness.
Please refrain from bringing the guardsmen discussion here as well.
The points cost is only comparable when one unit can be substituted for another. For example pox walkers vs nurglings vs cultists.
I frankly don't care what a guardsman costs, as long as orks as an army are balanced against imperial guard as an army. Which, in my experience, seems to be the case.
Comparing units across armies is not precisely an apples to apples comparison.
But I think it's fair to make *some* cross codex analysis, because internal balance should make sense across codices. It's hard to say a buggy is well priced compared to a land speeder, for instance, even acknowledging it's not a strict 1-to-1 comparison.
That being said, a grot very well might be worth 4 ppm, because CP generation is one of our few force multipliers. I think it would be incredibly stupid to increase grot costs without huge swathes of change elsewhere, though. Increasing grot costs alone just makes army diversity even worse at the competitive level.
Balancing a codex without looking at other armies gets us 7th edition orks. Internally that codex was fine. In practice against ANY other army it was horribly overpriced and lacking in punch/defense.
I agree comparisons cant be 1to1 between codexes but they can be fairly similar. If they cost the exact same its pretty easy to compare the two because at that point the ONLY difference is statlines, gear, and special rules - all of which gretchin have none to speak of. The only 3 rules they get access to at all is DDD, their 20+ numbers bonus to hit with peashooters, and a rule that removes rules/stratagems.
tulun wrote: Comparing units across armies is not precisely an apples to apples comparison.
But I think it's fair to make *some* cross codex analysis, because internal balance should make sense across codices. It's hard to say a buggy is well priced compared to a land speeder, for instance, even acknowledging it's not a strict 1-to-1 comparison.
That being said, a grot very well might be worth 4 ppm, because CP generation is one of our few force multipliers. I think it would be incredibly stupid to increase grot costs without huge swathes of change elsewhere, though. Increasing grot costs alone just makes army diversity even worse at the competitive level.
No, the point is that a grot is not worth 4 points even if guardsmen go up to 10 points.
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Vineheart01 wrote: Balancing a codex without looking at other armies gets us 7th edition orks. Internally that codex was fine. In practice against ANY other army it was horribly overpriced and lacking in punch/defense.
I agree comparisons cant be 1to1 between codexes but they can be fairly similar. If they cost the exact same its pretty easy to compare the two because at that point the ONLY difference is statlines, gear, and special rules - all of which gretchin have none to speak of. The only 3 rules they get access to at all is DDD, their 20+ numbers bonus to hit with peashooters, and a rule that removes rules/stratagems.
If you really want to discuss guardsmen, create a new thread please. Because I don't want to have to read this discussion for the hundredth time.
You can only compare an army as a whole to an army as whole. There is no magic formula where you can enter the statlines of both units, orders, grot shield, dakka³, comissars, warbosses/runtherds, psychic powers, point value of units either can protect, costs of opportunity for not bringing other troops and whatever I missed and get a correct value for points out of it. Especially not if the difference is one point.
The only truth is that orks have to bring battalions for CP. If you increase their points, this doesn't change until you reach a threshold where we start bringing boyz instead. All this will just eat away the points we have for other stuff that actually does anything and thus results in weakening the ork army.
The only reason for people to stop spamming gretchin would either be providing alternative troops (for example trukk boyz, wagon boyz, toop nobz or warbikers), alternative sources of CP or buffing units that have little or no stratagem support (most vehicles).
No, the point is that a grot is not worth 4 points even if guardsmen go up to 10 points.
If you really want to discuss guardsmen, create a new thread please. Because I don't want to have to read this discussion for the hundredth time.
You can only compare an army as a whole to an army as whole. There is no magic formula where you can enter the statlines of both units, orders, grot shield, dakka³, comissars, warbosses/runtherds, psychic powers, point value of units either can protect, costs of opportunity for not bringing other troops and whatever I missed and get a correct value for points out of it. Especially not if the difference is one point.
The only truth is that orks have to bring battalions for CP. If you increase their points, this doesn't change until you reach a threshold where we start bringing boyz instead. All this will just eat away the points we have for other stuff that actually does anything and thus results in weakening the ork army.
The only reason for people to stop spamming gretchin would either be providing alternative troops (for example trukk boyz, wagon boyz, toop nobz or warbikers), alternative sources of CP or buffing units that have little or no stratagem support (most vehicles).
I agree to an extent; points are the unit of measurement we use for very complex things. But we can talk about some of the inputs very easily (because we know that statline IS an input to point cost).
I think its fair to say if the Grot statline and basic ruleset are worth 3 points, and Guardsman with their far better statline are worth 4 points, that the other complex stuff we are putting it better mean grots are worth 3 points. If Guardsmen costed as much as a tac marine, you'd really have to a good argument as to why, given their basic statline.
But I 100% agree on the troops problem. People would stop using Grots (or use them less) the choices weren't 10 grots (coming in at 30 points) or 210 points minimum for a full boy squad. Why it's an issue Orks field a 10 man grot squad, and space marines field 3x Scout squads (55 points a pop at min) is somehow an issue is confusing.
Many other armies have much better troop options; we literally have take the chaffiest of chaff, or spend 200+ points on making something useful. 10 Boy squads are simply useless in competitive play, unless Trukks become cheaper (and even then, that's still a large tax just to field a bare minimum squad).
For sure, if trukkboyz were at least viable (not necessarily the best option) i'd be using them.
I have like 8 trukks or something like that. They never get used because every time i put an elite/heavy unit in there theyre a very tasty target, and boyz just dont do anything at that number.
Other than making them laughably cheap im not sure what could be done to make trukkboyz viable in 8th. And that makes me sad because its such a staple unit we've used for soooo long.
Amusingly enough, the prior complaint was that Marines were OVERcosted. Which always weirded me out cuz, as an Ork player, I would LOVE to spend 13 pts and get a Marine statline Nob.
flandarz wrote: Amusingly enough, the prior complaint was that Marines were OVERcosted. Which always weirded me out cuz, as an Ork player, I would LOVE to spend 13 pts and get a Marine statline Nob.
The main decision im trying to think of here is whether or not that Wazbom is worth it or if i should take more boyz (bump that 10x to a 30x). Obviously the clear winner would be mekgunz but aint got those to spam. Feels wrong not using 7+ vehicles but that +1D whitescars get literally autowins against vehicle lists if you dont table them by turn3.
Rather large squad of bikers with 2 character bikers in tow (captain with that relic of gakton of attacks, chaplain), landraider and a couple rhinos with a dual-sword marine i forget the name for (their whole shtick is they swing 5 times, which with the assault doctrine switches from pretty meh to pretty insanely strong especially with that banner around)
His backfield is mostly just various tac marines with misc heavy weapons.
I generally avoid mixed kulture mostly because i dont like having to keep track what is what kulture when theyre all painted the same way lol. Semi-casual environment anyway so i dont need to powergame, im just out of my element trying to find a way to deal with white scars w/o utterly screwing myself against other armies.
I usually shred the bikers pretty quick, even with their annoying 4++ strat (that should seriously not be a 4++...). Its those dual-sword guys in T3 onward that get me because by then all i really have left is big stuff, and they eat big stuff far too easily for how cheap they are.
Sounds like a job for tankbustas to me. Tellyporta or Da Jump them turn 1/2, smash the rhinos and/or the LR (which they should do incredibly easily with shoot twice, add in some squig bombs for extra insurance), wreck the transports before they can get close, shoot em down. Could easily swap some stuff to take them.
Dakkajet might be better than a wazbom. Doesn't care about that bike 4++ invul save.
Vineheart01 wrote: Other than making them laughably cheap im not sure what could be done to make trukkboyz viable in 8th. And that makes me sad because its such a staple unit we've used for soooo long.
Actually there are three obvious solution to that
- Make the PK do more damage to incentive MSU - Make stratagems which work on/near trukks (disembark after movement, for example)
- Make a new datasheet for trukk boyz which max out at 12 models and have a replacement rule for green tide
Vineheart01 wrote: Other than making them laughably cheap im not sure what could be done to make trukkboyz viable in 8th. And that makes me sad because its such a staple unit we've used for soooo long.
Actually there are three obvious solution to that
- Make the PK do more damage to incentive MSU - Make stratagems which work on/near trukks (disembark after movement, for example)
- Make a new datasheet for trukk boyz which max out at 12 models and have a replacement rule for green tide
I'd really like that but trukk boyz would be an alternative to fotslogging 30 man mobs, not to min squads of gretchins. 10-12 boyz with a trukk and a PK are way too expensive to be spammed in lists with 3x battallions or battallion+brigade.
The only real alternative to spamming min squads of gretchins would be to to change the boyz datasheet by making their size 5-30. Since ages boyz have been deployed in squads of 10+ (in 3rd however trukk boyz were 5-10 dudes but fast attacks), but several boxes, even very new ones like the upcoming sisters kit, come with 10 models while their min squad is 5 elements.
At the moment, at competitive levels, disposing of 18+ CPs is too important and we're taking grots mostly for that goal. I don't even use the Grot Shield stratagem since it requires key positioning and casualties are suffered anyway crippling the shooting unit behind them, I always deepstrike the max suicide unit of yellow tankbustas, which I consider significantly more effective than lootas or shielded footsloggin bustas. Gretchins are not particularly good, they're just mandatory to make our army work at tournaments.
If we could take min squads of boys (35 points), or other units like bikes (69), stormboyz (45) or kommandos (40), under the special rule of some named characters who make them troops, we'd certainly take those units to fill up the required troop slots instead of gretchins. But suggested units that cost 150+ points like trukk boyz squads would have a different purpose.
Vineheart01 wrote: Other than making them laughably cheap im not sure what could be done to make trukkboyz viable in 8th. And that makes me sad because its such a staple unit we've used for soooo long.
Actually there are three obvious solution to that
- Make the PK do more damage to incentive MSU - Make stratagems which work on/near trukks (disembark after movement, for example)
- Make a new datasheet for trukk boyz which max out at 12 models and have a replacement rule for green tide
I'd really like that but trukk boyz would be an alternative to fotslogging 30 man mobs, not to min squads of gretchins. 10-12 boyz with a trukk and a PK are way too expensive to be spammed in lists with 3x battallions or battallion+brigade.
The only real alternative to spamming min squads of gretchins would be to to change the boyz datasheet by making their size 5-30. Since ages boyz have been deployed in squads of 10+ (in 3rd however trukk boyz were 5-10 dudes but fast attacks), but several boxes, even very new ones like the upcoming sisters kit, come with 10 models while their min squad is 5 elements.
At the moment, at competitive levels, disposing of 18+ CPs is too important and we're taking grots mostly for that goal. I don't even use the Grot Shield stratagem since it requires key positioning and casualties are suffered anyway crippling the shooting unit behind them, I always deepstrike the max suicide unit of yellow tankbustas, which I consider significantly more effective than lootas or shielded footsloggin bustas. Gretchins are not particularly good, they're just mandatory to make our army work at tournaments.
If we could take min squads of boys (35 points), or other units like bikes (69), stormboyz (45) or kommandos (40), under the special rule of some named characters who make them troops, we'd certainly take those units to fill up the required troop slots instead of gretchins. But suggested units that cost 150+ points like trukk boyz squads would have a different purpose.
That would just make the CP farm problem worse, not better. The whole point is to minimze the need for CP farms, because you have other troops worth taking.
A ~120 point unit actually providing something to your army is better than a 30 point unit not doing jack, proof of that is people still bringing big boyz mobs to win tournaments.
In general, you are always better off taking troops which are worth their points over taking worthless troops for CP only. An army with 18 CP and 1970 points invested in good units will be better than a unit with 18 CP and 1910 points invested in good units.
On that note: Boarding Action REALLY should allow you to make ALL your attacks against any unit within 1" of your transport. Or just update Open-Topped to allow that. Even in a BW (which gives you the largest Embarked mob you can have), 1 attack per model and only against Vehicles is pretty garbage, even for just 1 CP.
That would just make the CP farm problem worse, not better. The whole point is to minimze the need for CP farms, because you have other troops worth taking.
A ~120 point unit actually providing something to your army is better than a 30 point unit not doing jack, proof of that is people still bringing big boyz mobs to win tournaments.
In general, you are always better off taking troops which are worth their points over taking worthless troops for CP only. An army with 18 CP and 1970 points invested in good units will be better than a unit with 18 CP and 1910 points invested in good units.
Top tier orks don't invest tons of CPs in 30 man mobs; the endless greet tide stratagem is very situational and any decent player won't give you the chance to respawn a full size mob. The majority of CPs are invested in Tellyporta, More Dakka, Showing Off, Grot Shield, Dread Waagh Detachment + Second Relic, and for making the warboss fight twice or three times.
Unless the entire codex gets an upgrade in its datasheets, even a third efficient troop choice won't change anything in (very) competitive list building. I'd still rather pay those 180 ponts in gretchins for 10 CPs to invest in making more killy the tankbustas and other stuff than fielding 1.5 units of trukk boyz with the same amount of points with less CPs available and the need to pay more precious points just to complete a single battallion. Minimizing the need of farming CPs has nothing to do with having more efficient troops: 30 boyz are already efficient and not even that expensive comparing to a unit of trukk boyz.
Truth is, pretty much everything in the ork codex is utterly overcosted and even some decent/good units like tankbustas can be good only by investing tons of CPs on them. A simple fix with some price reductions won't change anything unless it's so heavy that we can basically play with 2x the amount of toyz we can field right now, which is definitely not going to happen and I wouldn't even want it.
I think having 6 units of trukk boyz would be an alternative to 3x30 boyz and nothing else. Gretchins have a completely different role than proper orks, even outside the purpose of generating CPs: would you use a trukk full of (efficient) boyz just to sit on an objective and do nothing potentially for the rest of the game? And 6x trukk boyz would be a significant investment in points, I'd rather have 180 points of gakky troops and 300 points of useful toyz than 6x trukk boyz and no toyz.
But I also like the idea of making small units of boyz work since I can't stand playing with the 30 man mobs, I'd really love cutting them from competitive gaming, not the gretchins
I don't think you understood what I was trying to say.
In any case, the idea was not to get gretchin off the table, but to enable builds without making 6-9 units mandatory.
If you could substitute 1 unit of 30 boyz with 2 units of trukkboyz, that would be nothing short of perfect. It would automatically reduce the number of gretchin you need to bring, since you don't want more than 9 troops in any case, and if boyz work in trukks, they would also work in bonekrushas.
So, continuing that thought, two units of trukkboyz should cost around 210 points, effectively asking for 21 point trukks. Not going to happen ;(
Well, if Trukkboyz were their own datasheet, the loss of +1 Attack COULD drop them to 6ppm. In which case, you could field 2 units of 12, with 2 62pt Trukkz, for 268 pts. That'd be a fair trade.
Trukk Boyz at 7ppm are fine, max squad at 12 obviously. However, change their rule from +1 attack to +3 disembark AND can disembark and charge after vehicle moved. Trukk boyz in the fluff and game can only function as a shock assault force. slowly going up the board just means you are throwing away points to the enemy for easy kills.
I think 30 point trukks which would force us, rule wise, to take a 12 ork mob along with it, would be perfect. 114 points total seems about right. Make em trukk boys for the keyword so as no mob up stuff. Just say Da ladz took a leaf from the space marine 7th edition codex, the one starting with « battle company » (da unmies got dat right)
If you could reliably get Trukks boys into combat, that would likely make for some more interesting lists.
At 89 points, 12 Boyz is 33 str 4 attacks hitting on 3s, with a nob with big choppa hitting at str 7 ap -1 d2 and 3 attacks, with a potential 4th str 5 attack.
Can’t kill everything but it’s a threat. You could even take them as deathskullz do you could get rerolls in your nob and a save against over watch.
If the trukk got cheap enough it might be worth trying. I’m just unsure what that price point is where it gets good without being too much.
addnid wrote: I think 30 point trukks which would force us, rule wise, to take a 12 ork mob along with it, would be perfect. 114 points total seems about right. Make em trukk boys for the keyword so as no mob up stuff. Just say Da ladz took a leaf from the space marine 7th edition codex, the one starting with « battle company » (da unmies got dat right)
The issue with that is that you can then threat overload with empty trukks. They're fast enough to easily tie stuff up, and while they don't have crazy durability, at 30 points, they would.
Yup. 30 pt Trukks is probably too little. You could grab 10 of them for less than a 6th of your points and give your opponent 100 T6 Sv4+ Wounds to deal with. Accounting for Ramshackle, your could even say you got 116 Wounds on the table, and that's crazy for just 300 pts.
tulun wrote: If you could reliably get Trukks boys into combat, that would likely make for some more interesting lists.
At 89 points, 12 Boyz is 33 str 4 attacks hitting on 3s, with a nob with big choppa hitting at str 7 ap -1 d2 and 3 attacks, with a potential 4th str 5 attack.
Can’t kill everything but it’s a threat.
The thing is... it's not a threat. Even without losses from overwatch, they can usually take out one unit like cultists, pox walkers or guardsmen, but anything slightly tougher and they simply fall to kill it and then get gunned down. If you face someone who just bought his first primaris army, you need three units of trukk boyz to get through his 170 point intercessor unit - assuming the three trukks manage to kill the last marine.
I kinda feel like, even optimally done, Trukk Boyz would only fill the same role that Storm Boyz do. Ie: fast unit that ties ranged threats into CC so the rest of the army survives longer.
Which, to me, means they should be closely costed (including the price of a Trukk) to what Storm Boyz should be. Obviously, they're a bit "tougher" since they have ablative Wounds from the Trukk, but they also lose out on Deepstrike, so that could be a wash.
you could change the unit to include a trukk. So the unit is a trukk at 30pts and then 10-12 boyz at 7pts each. that way you get around the chance of someone simply spamming 20 trukkz for crazy levels of board control.
At 30pts and with a max load of boyz you are running 116pts, throw in a PK if they eventually do something and you are up to 130ish pts You could take 10 of them in a list easily enough.
My 30 point trukk idea was with that condition (12 boys compulsory) but perhaps I wasn’t clear enough.
Just like battle company in 7 th forced tac marines for the free transports.
But as Jiddah said probably too creative for GW (Orks clearly not being a priority for GW, seeing the job they did last year on the new buggies)
Nevertheless it could mean 9 trukks and more than 100 boyz for 1000 points so perhaps a limit on should also be set. Much too creative though
tulun wrote: If you could reliably get Trukks boys into combat, that would likely make for some more interesting lists.
At 89 points, 12 Boyz is 33 str 4 attacks hitting on 3s, with a nob with big choppa hitting at str 7 ap -1 d2 and 3 attacks, with a potential 4th str 5 attack.
Can’t kill everything but it’s a threat.
The thing is... it's not a threat. Even without losses from overwatch, they can usually take out one unit like cultists, pox walkers or guardsmen, but anything slightly tougher and they simply fall to kill it and then get gunned down. If you face someone who just bought his first primaris army, you need three units of trukk boyz to get through his 170 point intercessor unit - assuming the three trukks manage to kill the last marine.
I mean, I also don't necessarily think that 89 points of a unit with no AP (outside of the Nob) should necessarily slaughter a 2W power armour unit twice its cost. I'm sure they bounce of a 105 point MANz unit too.
If we could start fielding Deathskull PKs, this math might actually get a bit better (re-roll to hit, wound, and damage might actually make klaws okay). I bet that would turn out a bit better if you wanted them to specifically take out Intercessors (and only bumps the cost of the trukk boyz to 97 points).
I think it bears mentioning that 12 Trukk Boyz would, by necessity, HAVE to cost more than 97 pts. Because you need a Trukk to deliver them, and that costs like 64 pts (or something, Codex isn't in front of me right now). So, you'd be looking at around 150 pts. If it would take 3 units of these to take out a 170 pt Intercessor unit, that's 450ish pts spent, which is pretty significant. Especially since you could spend 255 pts for a 15 strong unit of Badmoonz Lootas and accomplish the same thing (30 shots, 13 hits, 8.6 Wounds, 11.5 Damage on average, which you can double with Shoot Twice).
Alternatively, if you're looking to threaten your opponent with being tied in CC, you could spend the same 450 pts and get 2 17 strong and 1 16 strong units of Storm Boyz which will move just as quickly and be far more threatening in CC when they get there. Sure, you lose the ablative Wounds, but you also don't got to worry about losing models if a vehicle is destroyed (you can expect to lose 2 Trukk Boyz, on average, if their vehicle is popped).
Basically, at the moment, anything you'd want Trukk Boyz for, you have far more efficient units to fill the role. To be viable, they'd need a complete overhaul, or a significant reduction in cost.
flandarz wrote: I think it bears mentioning that 12 Trukk Boyz would, by necessity, HAVE to cost more than 97 pts. Because you need a Trukk to deliver them, and that costs like 64 pts (or something, Codex isn't in front of me right now). So, you'd be looking at around 150 pts. If it would take 3 units of these to take out a 170 pt Intercessor unit, that's 450ish pts spent, which is pretty significant. Especially since you could spend 255 pts for a 15 strong unit of Badmoonz Lootas and accomplish the same thing (30 shots, 13 hits, 8.6 Wounds, 11.5 Damage on average, which you can double with Shoot Twice).
Alternatively, if you're looking to threaten your opponent with being tied in CC, you could spend the same 450 pts and get 2 17 strong and 1 16 strong units of Storm Boyz which will move just as quickly and be far more threatening in CC when they get there. Sure, you lose the ablative Wounds, but you also don't got to worry about losing models if a vehicle is destroyed (you can expect to lose 2 Trukk Boyz, on average, if their vehicle is popped).
Basically, at the moment, anything you'd want Trukk Boyz for, you have far more efficient units to fill the role. To be viable, they'd need a complete overhaul, or a significant reduction in cost.
Hmm. So I think your example is really unfair to the usefulness / useless of Trukk Boyz.
I totally agree with the premise that Trukks are too expensive (in fact, most transports are too expensive, in all likelihood). I would say its a better contrast to see if taking 10-12 Boyz is worth it over taking their substitute: 10 grots.
You need roughly 18 attacks in CC to kill 1 Intercessor (or 6 boyz). With the shooting, you can probably get to about 2 dead from the 11 boyz. The Nob w/ BC kills one (let's assume it's a Deathskullz mob, so you save your rerolls for the Nob). With a PK and all the rerolls, he might kill 2.
So, depending on your kit, it's 2.5-3 trukk boy mobs. Not the most efficient, I agree.
But to be honest, the Stormboyz don't fair that much better. The point of the trukk *is* the ablative wounds; it's much easier to move up the board in the trukk than it is simply by moving up the board. Stormboyz die pretty easily. So in your example, if the trukk pops from shooting and kills a couple boyz, why wouldn't they be thinning down the FA boyz?
It's also not really precise to say the usefulness of either of those units is only their ability to kill Primaris marines, which is just far too narrow. Lootas, of course, are better at killing heavy infantry; its literally what they are made to do. But we can't take those as troops, and they have other problems (IE, the actual cost of Lootas is actually the insane amount of CP you need to fund them, plus grot shields, etc, etc...)
I think the subtle question I'd ask is this: because having this transport gives you ablative wounds (makes the unit inside more resistant to small arms fire), prevents a single unit from killing both in 1 round of shooting (disembark rolls *shouldn't* kill you without a really unlucky roll), gives you something to screen units, tag units, etc. Is this useful enough in competitive play? ITC?
I could imagine a world of a 30 point trukk where you may just throw 10 grots inside to go after objectives. And maybe there, you'll find yourself upgrading to 10-12 boyz just so they can actually have a shot at killing something, as opposed to basically nothing.
Here's the thing about trukk boyz: they used to be a way to deliver a PK where it needed to be, providing to that nob some speed, protection and ablative wounds. Now that everything got tons of wounds and we've got two other effective options to get into the right position (Da Jump and Tellyporta) the unit like we knew is dead.
More attacks for the boyz won't change that much and in previous editions even if they charged their crappy initiative would cause them casualties before striking so the number of attacks is probably even better now.
Even if the trukk gets a fair new price (45-50, certainly not 30), and the PK goes down to 9pts this kind of unit would have little purpose. A D6 damage PK wouldn't change much either, it should be damage flat 4 or probably more and it's certainly not going to happen. Not at 9-13 points at least.
The mechanics of 40k are now completely different than the previous editions and now it's probably the time to make trukks work for elites. I think nobz should get a buff with 1-2 more attacks if they charge, and that would make trukks a fair option for them. Bustas and gitz are already ok but some price reductions for both the transport and the gitz should help too. Also burnaboyz could benefit from a trukk if they get an appropriate datasheet.
But to make trukk boyz work (aka compete with full mobz of boyz) seems quite hard without some significant re-write of the datasheet.
One interesting change could be giving that +1A for units of boyz that are 10 or LESS models, while bigger mobz get to keep the morale bonus. That would maybe create some tactical choice between fielding big or small mobz as they both get a bonus, but of different type.
To get rid of the the need of disposing of 18+ CPsGW should re-write other units, like lootas and bustas which are way overcosted at 17ppm unless you invest 5-6 CPs per turn on them. But if you make them cheaper competitive players will change nothing, they'd just add a few more things on the table. Unfortunately (or luckily, if you like the mechanics) this edition of 40k is designed around buffing the units with auras, traits, klan rules, stratagems, etc... like it or not it's how 40k works now and if you can get 2x shooting (or even better with More Dakka) and similar buffs, competitive gaming will always go into the direction of maximizing the most powerful combos. If the army gets enough buffs to get rid of the need of using (abusing) those combos it would probably mean that the army has become broken.
In casual games playing with no gretchins and 9-10 CPs is already fine.
Thing is full 30 strong mobs take up somuch space on the board.
Trukk boyz don’t have that issue. I would love to be able to field (in a comp environment) 3 units of each, and my last battalion would be grots.
If GW design team did their job right, we could field competitively
3*12 trukk boyz
3*30 boyz
3*10 grots
And I think most players would absolutely love that. We could put the new shiny buggies along those trukks too, you the things GW probably aren’t currently selling much, and would probably like to sell a lot more.
If they were half decent at designing xenos stuff (they are getting less bad, sowe should not abandon all hope just yet)
tulun wrote: Hmm. So I think your example is really unfair to the usefulness / useless of Trukk Boyz.
I totally agree with the premise that Trukks are too expensive (in fact, most transports are too expensive, in all likelihood). I would say its a better contrast to see if taking 10-12 Boyz is worth it over taking their substitute: 10 grots.
I disagree 100%. Gretchin serve no purpose beside being wounds on the board, while boyz are a unit with a clear role on the battlefield. If anything, two units of trukk boyz should be equal to 30 boyz + 10 gretchin.
You need roughly 18 attacks in CC to kill 1 Intercessor (or 6 boyz). With the shooting, you can probably get to about 2 dead from the 11 boyz. The Nob w/ BC kills one (let's assume it's a Deathskullz mob, so you save your rerolls for the Nob). With a PK and all the rerolls, he might kill 2.
So, depending on your kit, it's 2.5-3 trukk boy mobs. Not the most efficient, I agree.
That's some pretty generous rounding though. The average amount of primaris casualties you can expect from a unit of trukk boyz with a PK is 2.86, assuming a trukk ate all the overwatch. So, let's assume you actually got 3, they strike back with 22 attacks and kill 6 of your boyz. To kill those 10 intercessors(or any other primaris unit), you not only need 291 worth of boyz, but also 192 points of trukks, for a total of 483 points. In comparison: A grokanaut and three units of gretchin are 401, three KBB for 300, which are considered to be a solid meh can kill 3 primaris from 36" away.
But to be honest, the Stormboyz don't fair that much better. The point of the trukk *is* the ablative wounds; it's much easier to move up the board in the trukk than it is simply by moving up the board. Stormboyz die pretty easily. So in your example, if the trukk pops from shooting and kills a couple boyz, why wouldn't they be thinning down the FA boyz?
Because multi-damage weapons are actually efficient at killing trukks. While a lascannon is wasted on a 31 point smasha, when shooting 64 point trukks, it's gaining back its points. On top of that, if the trukk goes boom, it takes down two boyz with him, leaving the mob at 10 models, so a unit of trukk boyz has an average of 21 wounds. If you consider that the trukk is roughly twice as resilient to S4 fire as boyz, it evens out. But as you can't turn 12 shots into any more wounds than 12 against storm boyz, they actually have more staying power, not less. In addition, storm boyz are much faster, can pull off first turn charges and charge over screens, trukk boyz can do neither - they are actually quite likely to get stopped by screens. Also don't forget that a trukk degrades - once it has lost 5 wounds, it's actually faster to get out and advance than to keep riding.
It's also not really precise to say the usefulness of either of those units is only their ability to kill Primaris marines, which is just far too narrow. Lootas, of course, are better at killing heavy infantry; its literally what they are made to do. But we can't take those as troops, and they have other problems (IE, the actual cost of Lootas is actually the insane amount of CP you need to fund them, plus grot shields, etc, etc...)
The reality is that the majority of the armies most people face are space marines now, and very few are not bringing primaris, the only classic MEQ you see regularly are devastators and scouts. Trukk boyz are terrible against scouts as you need to disembark in the middle of nowhere to charge and kill them, and then get back in the trukk the turn after, so the scouts delays them for three turns. The intercessor is a basic gearcheck example. Any guy with marines will most like have one or two units protecting their more valuable stuff, there even have been top placements with people just bringing 60+ intercessors. All the other primaris units share their profile, so they will fail just as hard at kill helblasters as the fail at killing intercessors. If an offensive unit can't deal with the basic infantry of the most popular army even when investing three times as many points, it just fails at its job and should never be taken in a TAC list.
I think the subtle question I'd ask is this: because having this transport gives you ablative wounds (makes the unit inside more resistant to small arms fire), prevents a single unit from killing both in 1 round of shooting (disembark rolls *shouldn't* kill you without a really unlucky roll), gives you something to screen units, tag units, etc. Is this useful enough in competitive play? ITC?
The thing is, the term "ablative wounds" describes adding cheap wounds to a unit or model that does the heavy lifting. For example, grot shields are ablative wounds for lootas, additional marines are ablative wounds for devastator squads with lascannons. Trukks actually fulfill this role for tank bustas or flash gits and have even appeared on top tables. This does not apply to trukk boyz, as they are not doing any lifting at all. In essence, the trukk is not the problem, mobs of 12 boyz are. Those currently have no purpose.
I could imagine a world of a 30 point trukk where you may just throw 10 grots inside to go after objectives. And maybe there, you'll find yourself upgrading to 10-12 boyz just so they can actually have a shot at killing something, as opposed to basically nothing.
Even with trukks at 30 points, bringing two units of gretchin would be superior putting one inside a trukk. The whole point of gretchin is filling out our 9 de facto mandatory slots for as little points as possible. There is zero reason to add a truck to a pure tax unit, and there is even less reason to bring a 100+ points tax unit if there is a 30 or 40 point unit available.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Blackie wrote: To get rid of the the need of disposing of 18+ CPsGW should re-write other units, like lootas and bustas which are way overcosted at 17ppm unless you invest 5-6 CPs per turn on them. But if you make them cheaper competitive players will change nothing, they'd just add a few more things on the table. Unfortunately (or luckily, if you like the mechanics) this edition of 40k is designed around buffing the units with auras, traits, klan rules, stratagems, etc... like it or not it's how 40k works now and if you can get 2x shooting (or even better with More Dakka) and similar buffs, competitive gaming will always go into the direction of maximizing the most powerful combos. If the army gets enough buffs to get rid of the need of using (abusing) those combos it would probably mean that the army has become broken.
In casual games playing with no gretchins and 9-10 CPs is already fine.
Great post. One thing about CP though - many armies can get away with less CP because they simply have units that can hold their own. When running DG, for example, I feel I have little reason to bring more than one battalion, since many of my choices work fine without or with little stratagem support.
Our battlewagons, buggies, walkers, koptas and bikes have little or situation support in the way of extra damage stratagems, so making those more powerful would shift away the focus from generating as many CP as possible to super-charge the output of one unt.
If the only metric you care about is if Trukk Boyz are good enough to kill an entire intercessor squad, then they are useless. Nothing will change that, unless kill saws or Klaws get better ( they won’t ).
But if that’s your argument, boy squads are also useless. And people should stop fielding them. Because they also bounce off those units. Good luck even getting all your attacks even if you Da Jump; the basic attacks aren’t what’s killing these units. And auspex scan hard counters getting close anyway via our normal boy delivery method.
It’s my inclination as well given current costs; lists I design tend to get more fun if I field zero boys. I would even argue the "green label" boyz have now is probably downgraded on page 1. Or at the very least, it's 1-2 grades lower vs Marines.
Are you guys really just facing marines these days ? Play roster tournament prep games. One marine player for every 8 player team. Much better than solo stuff where everyone can just bring the new hotness and bury the fun in GW’s weird 2019 choices (make sm op again).
You still face optimized as sh.t army lists, but they is diversity among them, as each team can only give a codex to one player (imperium still rules though, and it won’t get you necrons, grey knights, etc.back on the tables. It ain’t perfect). We will see when the alt marines (DA, SW etc.) get their codex though, perhaps it will be all power armour even for team games.
yeah it really is 90% marines now.
Most players that have multiple armies have a marine army and a lot of powergamers buy whatever is hot even if they never goto tournaments.
Since the marine dex dropped ive had 18 games, 3 of which were NOT against marines. Previously that would be flipped and i would be mostly facing eldar.
Like I said, my metric for the viability of Trukk Boyz is based on whether other units can accomplish the same tasks more effectively. Storm Boyz are better at tying units into CC quickly, for example. It's the same reason Burna Boyz aren't viable: anything they can do another unit can do better (and cheaper). So, for Trukk Boyz to be a useful addition to your army, they would need to be competitively priced against the units we have that fill the same role.
flandarz wrote: Like I said, my metric for the viability of Trukk Boyz is based on whether other units can accomplish the same tasks more effectively. Storm Boyz are better at tying units into CC quickly, for example. It's the same reason Burna Boyz aren't viable: anything they can do another unit can do better (and cheaper). So, for Trukk Boyz to be a useful addition to your army, they would need to be competitively priced against the units we have that fill the same role.
I don't think it's fair to compare a unit of Boyz in Trukks to Burna Boyz; one is arguably weaker, Burna boys are *literally* useless. They could get a 90% discount and I still wouldn't field them. I don't think that's true of Trukk Boyz.
If all you care about is tagging a particular unit (and not killing it), Stormboyz are probably better; although the jumping screen thing really depends on positioning (you can jump screens, but you still need to fit the models, and you also are probably not in range of your warboss for the advance + charge; if there is no screen to jump, stormboyz can have a bigger threat range because you can always string them back, without having to throw up your boss or wartrike).
I think I am just emphasizing the usefulness of actually fielding the trukk, which has been acknowledged. Trukks *are* useful in ways more than just killing stuff. If you find you need the payload to be stronger than 12 boyz (with whatever kit they have available), that's completely fair. I would probably not field Trukk Boyz as a CC unit, but as a shooty unit with 2 rokkits as Deathskullz.
But again, Stormboyz are probably also on the chopping block if all we care about is if they kill Primaris marines; they are *just as bad* as Boyz, at a higher price point. I'm also not sure tagging the marine infantry in the front will do much (UM can just leave combat and wreck you, for instance... Raven Guard can do something similar as well). If we care about more than kill power of Primaris Marines, we have a more interesting discussion to have.
The comparison was that, for their roles, you have more efficient options. Obviously Burna Boyz are worse than Trukk Boyz. But they, theoretically, have a role to perform in an army, one which is performed better by pretty much any other unit.
If Burna Boyz had a 90% decrease in price, you'd be a fool NOT to field them. Even if they do nothing by die, they'd be 1.2ppm. You could have 45 of them (the maximum possible) for less than the cost of 2 Gretchin MSUs. Hyperbole helps no one, friend.
If your view of a Trukk Boyz role is to be a highly mobile shooting unit, then you STILL have better options. You could spend 172 points for the Trukk and two Rokkit Launchaz, or you could spend 110 pts for a Scrapjet which will do the same job, but better. And for cheaper.
In a casual environment, you can field nearly anything (yes, even Burnas), but in a competitive environment, you have to choose the most efficient units you can. And, right now, anything Trukk Boyz can do, something else can do better.
If your view of a Trukk Boyz role is to be a highly mobile shooting unit, then you STILL have better options. You could spend 172 points for the Trukk and two Rokkit Launchaz, or you could spend 110 pts for a Scrapjet which will do the same job, but better. And for cheaper.
That's not exactly the right cost here.
Given I *have* to take 9 troops in a 2000 point list (CP baby), and I can swap a gretchin squad out, its more fair to say is 10 grots + scrapjet better (140 points) vs the trukk squad. And the boyz get objective secure and aren't totally useless like grots (kill 5 and they squad runs away, not hard). It's not exactly the same role, even if both can shoot.
I think we might have to agree to disagree here. In competitive play, to be honest, most of the units we are talking about are more or less garbage anyway. Maybe CA will change that.
If you're using your Trukk Boyz to hold Objectives, they need to be disembarked to do so. At which point, why not just skip the 64 pt Trukk tax and Da Jump them there?
Like, what exactly do you consider the role of Trukk Boyz to be? Because it's shifted multiple times during this conversation. If it's now supposed to be "to hold Objectives", then I'd wager even Gretchin do that job better, simply because of how cheap they are. They might die in droves, but your opponent targetting a 30 pt unit with 100 to 200 pts of units to remove them from an Objective is, undeniably, better than the same 100 to 200 pts of units removing 94-100 pts of Boyz.
flandarz wrote: If you're using your Trukk Boyz to hold Objectives, they need to be disembarked to do so. At which point, why not just skip the 64 pt Trukk tax and Da Jump them there?
Like, what exactly do you consider the role of Trukk Boyz to be? Because it's shifted multiple times during this conversation. If it's now supposed to be "to hold Objectives", then I'd wager even Gretchin do that job better, simply because of how cheap they are. They might die in droves, but your opponent targetting a 30 pt unit with 100 to 200 pts of units to remove them from an Objective is, undeniably, better than the same 100 to 200 pts of units removing 94-100 pts of Boyz.
I would use Trukks as a way to push into an objective area. They have way more firepower than a grot squad, Boyz are certainly tougher than grots, and have a non-garbage stat line. If enemies are using their anti-tank stuff on trukks, they aren't using it on other more vital targets. Probably the best way to use Trukks is target saturation. A single Trukk won't do you very good, much like a single battlewagon won't do very well (etc). They can threaten a large number of non-primaris units, and are only a threat to them if they are softened up.
Well, people *do* Da Jump small units around like grots, but you can only do it once a turn, so you probably want to do it on something more deadly (MANz, Tankbustas, Lootas), then either choice.
Wiping out 10 grots definitely does not require 100-200 points of fire. T2, 6+ save, and LD4? You can split fire and spend way less than that.
Well, let's assume a 4+ BS, 2 shots per weapon, and S3, which is all pretty average and common. To take out 5 Gretchin, it would take an average of 10 of those weapons (2 shots, 1 hit, 0.66 Wounds, 0.55 Damage). But, as that's not a guaranteed wipe of the unit (it's only a guaranteed loss of 2 more from Morale), let's up this to where the Gretchin will be lost even if they pass Morale. That requires 7 dead models, so up to 14. If we assume these ranged models are relatively cheap at 6ppm, then your opponent has spent 84 points to remove 30 points of Gretchin from an Objective.
This same firepower directed at a 12 model Boy Blob would remove 3.88 models, on average (we'll round up to 4, for math simplicity), leaving you with 8 models. Morale check cause a loss of 1d6-4 more models, so (on average) you shouldn't lose anyone else.
In the end, the Trukk Boyz are still holding the Objective, but you lost 28 points of models in the process, to the Gretchin's 30. Slightly more efficient, I'll give you that. But it's important to remember that you spent 148 pts, minimum, for this, while Da Jumping Grots only cost me 92 pts
Alternatively, as Deathskullz, I already get Obsec with all Infantry, so I could Da Jump a unit of MANz onto that Objective, who will require way more firepower to remove. Or a unit of 12 Stormboyz can just move there (more reliably), which will cost (a minimum) 40 less points than the Trukk Boyz, because they don't require a Trukk for transport.
While I certainly think a mass of Trukkz could be useful and threatening, I disagree that Boyz are the best unit to place within them. Flash Gitz and Tankbustas are far better choices to put within them, as they're better able to make use of the Open-Topped rule. While 12 Boyz (with 10 Shootas and 2 Rokkits) are gonna deal 4 Wounds with the Shootas (against T3 and Sv6+) and 1 Wound with the Rokkits (against T8 and a 5++), the Gitz can deal 14 Wounds against the same Infantry (after accounting for the chance to shoot again, but not assuming the Infantry have more than 1 Wound) and the TBs will deal 7 Wounds against the same Armor. They certainly cost more, but as you mentioned earlier, just being cheap doesn't help if you can't do anything.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And, remember, if I'm only spending 30 pts on a unit of Grots, I have more points to spend on things like Gitz, Lootas, Tankbustas, etc. The +120 pt increase in cost for the Trukk and Boyz could be spent on a lot of other things.
tulun wrote: If the only metric you care about is if Trukk Boyz are good enough to kill an entire intercessor squad, then they are useless. Nothing will change that, unless kill saws or Klaws get better ( they won’t ).
But if that’s your argument, boy squads are also useless. And people should stop fielding them. Because they also bounce off those units. Good luck even getting all your attacks even if you Da Jump; the basic attacks aren’t what’s killing these units. And auspex scan hard counters getting close anyway via our normal boy delivery method.
It’s my inclination as well given current costs; lists I design tend to get more fun if I field zero boys. I would even argue the "green label" boyz have now is probably downgraded on page 1. Or at the very least, it's 1-2 grades lower vs Marines.
As you are intentionally misrepresenting my argument here, I'm done discussing this.
Anything you could do with trukk boyz can be done better by another unit for less points, even if you include the 30 point gretchin tax to get CP anyways.
Go ahead, and try to find a single counter-example.
flandarz wrote: Well, let's assume a 4+ BS, 2 shots per weapon, and S3, which is all pretty average and common. To take out 5 Gretchin, it would take an average of 10 of those weapons (2 shots, 1 hit, 0.66 Wounds, 0.55 Damage). But, as that's not a guaranteed wipe of the unit (it's only a guaranteed loss of 2 more from Morale), let's up this to where the Gretchin will be lost even if they pass Morale. That requires 7 dead models, so up to 14. If we assume these ranged models are relatively cheap at 6ppm, then your opponent has spent 84 points to remove 30 points of Gretchin from an Objective.
This same firepower directed at a 12 model Boy Blob would remove 3.88 models, on average (we'll round up to 4, for math simplicity), leaving you with 8 models. Morale check cause a loss of 1d6-4 more models, so (on average) you shouldn't lose anyone else.
In the end, the Trukk Boyz are still holding the Objective, but you lost 28 points of models in the process, to the Gretchin's 30. Slightly more efficient, I'll give you that. But it's important to remember that you spent 148 pts, minimum, for this, while Da Jumping Grots only cost me 92 pts
Alternatively, as Deathskullz, I already get Obsec with all Infantry, so I could Da Jump a unit of MANz onto that Objective, who will require way more firepower to remove. Or a unit of 12 Stormboyz can just move there (more reliably), which will cost (a minimum) 40 less points than the Trukk Boyz, because they don't require a Trukk for transport.
While I certainly think a mass of Trukkz could be useful and threatening, I disagree that Boyz are the best unit to place within them. Flash Gitz and Tankbustas are far better choices to put within them, as they're better able to make use of the Open-Topped rule. While 12 Boyz (with 10 Shootas and 2 Rokkits) are gonna deal 4 Wounds with the Shootas (against T3 and Sv6+) and 1 Wound with the Rokkits (against T8 and a 5++), the Gitz can deal 14 Wounds against the same Infantry (after accounting for the chance to shoot again, but not assuming the Infantry have more than 1 Wound) and the TBs will deal 7 Wounds against the same Armor. They certainly cost more, but as you mentioned earlier, just being cheap doesn't help if you can't do anything.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And, remember, if I'm only spending 30 pts on a unit of Grots, I have more points to spend on things like Gitz, Lootas, Tankbustas, etc. The +120 pt increase in cost for the Trukk and Boyz could be spent on a lot of other things.
Da Jump is a power we should use selectively, so I would be careful of adding in as a given to a strat like this, which is why a transport can be useful (you can use Da Jump on MANz, like you said, which is almost always going to be better). For the Stormboyz, it also matters if the shell will help the Boyz get to / hold the objective.
I agree with you: I think trukks are useful for Gitz and tankbustas, but probably not Lootas, as you can't DDD them inside. hitting only on 6's sucks.
Whether or not to spend anything more than bare minimum on troops is definitely the issue. I think with a trukk point cost reduction, you *may* find places where it could be useful. At current costs, I would probably just go with 10 grots, and use the points you save (upwards of 185 for a full boy squad) on much better stuff. This sort of wraps around to the original point of 4 ppm grots.
I think what I'm trying to get at is that 10 man boy squads are hard to get use of compared to the cheaper 10 grot squad, but a 10-12 man boy squad in trukk might be *close* to being useful here, with some point adjustments, because the trukk makes them less fragile and manuverable enough to maybe do something other than catch bullets.
Jidmah wrote:
As you are intentionally misrepresenting my argument here, I'm done discussing this.
Anything you could do with trukk boyz can be done better by another unit for less points, even if you include the 30 point gretchin tax to get CP anyways.
Go ahead, and try to find a single counter-example.
I'm not trying to misrepresent you here; you seem to acknowledge Trukks *give* utility, which is part of the thing I'm throwing out here. But it seemed to me you were focused solely on how good Trukk Boyz were at killing Primaris Marines. If this is incorrect, what exactly is your argument here? I don't disagree. Boyz suck at killing 2W power armour.
If you extrapolate that, then boy profiles in general suck against Marines, and probably should be shelved in all their forms (Stormboyz, 30 man blobs, etc).
I think we both understand the sum of a units usefulness is *not* just in what it can kill. And TAC lists might include units that are bad against 1 popular army, but good against another one.
I'm also not saying Trukk Boyz are currently good for their points; I am arguing that they should be made cheaper, which I think we also both agree on.
No disrespect here. But if you don't want to continue, that's fine.
I think the best "fix" for Trukkz would include allowing Embarked models within it to attacks units the Trukk is in CC with with ALL of their attacks for no CP cost. I'd also like to see an allowance for the Embarked unit to fire Overwatch, if the Trukk is charged.
Would that be enough to make them viable at their current cost? No idea. But it'd certainly be enough to make me consider fielding them.
russellmoo wrote: So as far as fixing trukks. What if they were cheaper say around 50ppm, and could hold more models, say 15, Would this make trukks viable?
Of course, I optimally just want cheaper stormboyz and cheaper buggies.
I think someone mentioned to me in my play group that the reason transports are so expensive almost universally in 8th was that whomever finished dropping their army first went first; hence, they added a tax to each transport to account for this.
As Flandarz noted, you can't do much interaction with them for the units inside outside of shooting. Auras don't work, you can't fight in them or overwatch inside, etc, etc. I don't think making them 15 makes them good for Trukk boyz, and their capacity is fine for a bunch of other units.
Their main use case is just the adding protective wounds for the softer units inside. Disembarking is also not *that* bad, especially as lots of units can take stuff like ammo runts. Gitz can loot them for a 3+ save, which is also pretty nice.
40-50 points might make the added protecting good enough to start seeing more play, which I think might go nicely along with buggy drops.
A fully mechanized (outside of grots, and artillery) force could make Orks far less weak to the mass bolter fire marines can field.
The issue with Transports is that you give up a LOT to use them. Especially for an army like Orkz where CC is so important. The best units to field in them are, by necessity, ones that have a primary role as medium-range firepower, and we only have a few units that fit that role. Long-range units are better off using Grot-Shields, and close range units want to be able to charge after firing.
You could always use them to transport CC-centric units up the board, but even then you're effectively waiting until T2 or T3 to actually use them, whereas you could Da Jump them for a T1 charge.
In the end, the cost of the Transport (both in points and in options) rarely outweighs the benefit the additional movement and ablative Wounds grant you. Which is why you really only see Tankbustas and Flash Gitz being Embarked.
flandarz wrote: The issue with Transports is that you give up a LOT to use them. Especially for an army like Orkz where CC is so important. The best units to field in them are, by necessity, ones that have a primary role as medium-range firepower, and we only have a few units that fit that role. Long-range units are better off using Grot-Shields, and close range units want to be able to charge after firing.
I think if 10 Shoota boyz w/ 2 Rokkits (8 points each instead of 12, at 86 total) + trukk was about total 130-135 points, it might be close. But yeah, exactly. If only we could charge out of trukks...
Well... I think it's sad to say, but Orks are *not* a CC army. As depressing as that sounds.
We are an army that can charge if it need to. Woo 2 attacks and WS 3+
Look at the units we love: Lootas (shooting), TBs (shooting), Mek Gunz (shooting), SAG/SSAG (shooting), Dakkajets (shooting), Flash Gitz (shooting). Most of our stratagems are used to buff our shooting.
Its mostly just some Boyz (which are falling out of favour due to Marines) and a Warboss which are really combat focused... but yeah. We shoot. If MANz become cheaper though, maybe we got somethin'.
I say we want to be in CC because we're fragile, so we need to be able to lock big ranged threats into CC to protect ourselves. It's also where 80% of our units shine best. 2 attacks and 3+ looks a whole lot better than 2 attacks and a 5+, but we got a LOT of stuff that Buffs CC as well. Banner Nobs. Warbosses. Ghaz. Da Jump. Warpath. Fists of Gork. Ramming Speed. Get Stuck In. Etc.
The issue isn't that we have bad CC. We actually have GREAT CC. We run into problems with getting there, and also with over-killing units and being unable to wrap them up for ranged protection.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Which, incidentally, is why Goff isn't a popular Kultur to take. We need exploding 6s in CC less than we need, say, reroll 1s in Ranged, or a 6++ with various rerolls.
flandarz wrote: I say we want to be in CC because we're fragile, so we need to be able to lock big ranged threats into CC to protect ourselves. It's also where 80% of our units shine best. 2 attacks and 3+ looks a whole lot better than 2 attacks and a 5+, but we got a LOT of stuff that Buffs CC as well. Banner Nobs. Warbosses. Ghaz. Da Jump. Warpath. Fists of Gork. Ramming Speed. Get Stuck In. Etc.
The issue isn't that we have bad CC. We actually have GREAT CC. We run into problems with getting there, and also with over-killing units and being unable to wrap them up for ranged protection.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Which, incidentally, is why Goff isn't a popular Kultur to take. We need exploding 6s in CC less than we need, say, reroll 1s in Ranged, or a 6++ with various rerolls.
Totally.
I also wish our aura stuff was priced aggressively. Waaagh banner Nob is so overcosted its such a joke.
Let's look at a new thing Iron Hands got!
"With the release of Faith and Fury, something awful has been created. The Ultimate Iron Hands Support Character.
The basic Techmarine costs 45 points at its cheapest, including wargear, although realistically you'll give him some weapons.
Now, here is where it gets disgusting.
You make him Master of The Forge for 1 CP, so he can now repair 3 Wounds instead of d3, and give him the Master of The Machine Warlord Trait. Then you use the Paragon of Iron Stratagem for an additional CP to give him the Adept of The Omnissiah Warlord Trait so he heals Vehicles for an additional Wound. Finally, you give him the Gorgon's Chain for additional staying power.
You now have a Character that gives all Vehicles within 6" +1 to hit, repairs 4-8 Wounds a Turn (Using Machine Empathy, and only on another Vehicle) and has a 2+/4++/6+++ Statline at -1 to Wound.
I had a discussion with a SM player the other day. He claimed that eliminators in cover can get 1+ due the rule that gives them +2 when in cover.
I said that is impossible because MANZ cannot have 1+ thanks to loot it, so nobody can have it
We discussed it a while, arriving nowhere .
So I shot one unit with smashaguns and tripointed another one
Any Cover Bonus to Saves applies to the ROLL, not the CHARACTERISTIC.
In the same way, AP applies to the ROLL as well.
So, his +2 should be canceled out by your -4, for a total modifier to the roll of -2. If the result is less than the unit's Save Characteristic, then it fails
flandarz wrote: The issue with Transports is that you give up a LOT to use them. Especially for an army like Orkz where CC is so important. The best units to field in them are, by necessity, ones that have a primary role as medium-range firepower, and we only have a few units that fit that role. Long-range units are better off using Grot-Shields, and close range units want to be able to charge after firing.
I think if 10 Shoota boyz w/ 2 Rokkits (8 points each instead of 12, at 86 total) + trukk was about total 130-135 points, it might be close. But yeah, exactly. If only we could charge out of trukks...
Well... I think it's sad to say, but Orks are *not* a CC army. As depressing as that sounds.
We are an army that can charge if it need to. Woo 2 attacks and WS 3+
Look at the units we love: Lootas (shooting), TBs (shooting), Mek Gunz (shooting), SAG/SSAG (shooting), Dakkajets (shooting), Flash Gitz (shooting). Most of our stratagems are used to buff our shooting.
Its mostly just some Boyz (which are falling out of favour due to Marines) and a Warboss which are really combat focused... but yeah. We shoot. If MANz become cheaper though, maybe we got somethin'.
Thats because 8th has been designed as a ranged combat edition. Players were very butt hurt about alpha strikes in 7th, not to mention the invincible close combat units. And ironically, all of our ork shooting REQUIRES massive investments in CP except for Mek Gunz which in my opinion are actually OK where they are since they are relatively easy to remove.
Also, most of our stratagems are NOT used to buff shooting. but since its a ranged combat edition, the ones we use most frequently are buffing ranged shooting. In an edition where a 30 strong unit of boyz can be shredded in the overwatch phase....whats the point?
Have you seriously lost 30 Boyz to a single Overwatch? That's crazy. Even against a Tau Sept gun bubble, I don't think I've ever lost more than 15 at most.
russellmoo wrote: So as far as fixing trukks. What if they were cheaper say around 50ppm, and could hold more models, say 15, Would this make trukks viable?
Of course, I optimally just want cheaper stormboyz and cheaper buggies.
Since units of 20 boyz are still terrible when you put them into BW, I don't think so. Don't get me wrong, the trukk could use a price drop, but the main problem is with small units of boyz being terrible, and additional three models are unlikely to fix that. Trukks with tank bustas or flash gits inside already are viable, just recently we had a list with two trukks placing third at a GT.
russellmoo wrote: So as far as fixing trukks. What if they were cheaper say around 50ppm, and could hold more models, say 15, Would this make trukks viable?
Of course, I optimally just want cheaper stormboyz and cheaper buggies.
Since units of 20 boyz are still terrible when you put them into BW, I don't think so. Don't get me wrong, the trukk could use a price drop, but the main problem is with small units of boyz being terrible, and additional three models are unlikely to fix that. Trukks with tank bustas or flash gits inside already are viable, just recently we had a list with two trukks placing third at a GT.
What?? Where ?? How I missee that??! Whose list??
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flandarz wrote: Any Cover Bonus to Saves applies to the ROLL, not the CHARACTERISTIC.
In the same way, AP applies to the ROLL as well.
So, his +2 should be canceled out by your -4, for a total modifier to the roll of -2. If the result is less than the unit's Save Characteristic, then it fails
So an eliminator unit in cover become:
AP 1: 2+
AP 2: 3+
AP 3: 4+
AP 4: 5+
AP5: 6+
tulun wrote: I'm not trying to misrepresent you here; you seem to acknowledge Trukks *give* utility, which is part of the thing I'm throwing out here. But it seemed to me you were focused solely on how good Trukk Boyz were at killing Primaris Marines. If this is incorrect, what exactly is your argument here? I don't disagree. Boyz suck at killing 2W power armour.
If you extrapolate that, then boy profiles in general suck against Marines, and probably should be shelved in all their forms (Stormboyz, 30 man blobs, etc).
A mob of 30 boyz gets one attack more (including for the PK) and even if you get just 20 models into combat, they kill almost twice as many primaris as the 12 trukk boyz, while having still having 10 ablative wounds.
However, what's much more important, is that boyz are a utility unit right now. Their main purpose is to lock down shooting units by piling into them, with the goal of arresting one to stay safe from shooting. Due to the low model count, doing any of this is pretty much impossible for trukk boyz.
If you really want to efficiently deal damage with boyz, you need to use stratagems - but moar dakka+showing off with shoota boyz to clear screens, fighting twice, green tide or even casual-level stratagems like loot it, skarboy or extra stikkbombs are just not worth using on 12 boyz.
So the things which trukk boyz can do is hit stuff with choppas (bad because no green tide bonus), shoot stuff with shootas (too many points for 20 S4 shots) or quickly get where you need them (not actually that fast, disembarking costs a turn, multiple deep strike options available to insert larger mobs). They need to be better than mobz of 30 boyz in at least one of these areas.
I think we both understand the sum of a units usefulness is *not* just in what it can kill. And TAC lists might include units that are bad against 1 popular army, but good against another one.
The thing is, there aren't any things that trukk boyz can kill efficiently. Sure they can kill a unit of guardsmen or gretchin, but the trukk itself already costs more than those. If you think there is something I missed, please provide the math.
I'm also not saying Trukk Boyz are currently good for their points; I am arguing that they should be made cheaper, which I think we also both agree on.
Actually, I disagree. 12 boyz need something to make them worth taking, both for the trukk and the bonebreaka. Less points isn't the answer to everything - making a unit cheaper just increases its efficiency, which is great for units that work in general, but are just too expensive to take. Most buggies are an example of this, while a mek workshop would be useless even at 0 points.
If a unit fails at the things it's supposed to be good at, it needs to get better at those things. Otherwise you keep making it cheaper until some other aspect becomes efficient enough to take them despite them not pulling their weight, at which point you end up with a broken unit. The 30 point trukk would be an example of this, it's so cheap for its wounds, you could prevent Mortarion from moving for the entire game for 450 points, with him having no chance of getting out of there despite fighting and pulsing mortal wounds each turn.
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flandarz wrote: Have you seriously lost 30 Boyz to a single Overwatch? That's crazy. Even against a Tau Sept gun bubble, I don't think I've ever lost more than 15 at most.
I guess you can pull it off by charging the big knight with the 3d6 flamer, or trying to charge two units of agressors overwatching on 5+. He probably is exaggerating to bring across his point
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Emicrania wrote: What?? Where ?? How I missee that??! Whose list??
flandarz wrote: Any Cover Bonus to Saves applies to the ROLL, not the CHARACTERISTIC.
In the same way, AP applies to the ROLL as well.
So, his +2 should be canceled out by your -4, for a total modifier to the roll of -2. If the result is less than the unit's Save Characteristic, then it fails
So an eliminator unit in cover become:
AP 1: 2+
AP 2: 3+
AP 3: 4+
AP 4: 5+
AP5: 6+
Right?
Correct. Just add up all the plusses and minusses and then remember an unmodified roll of 1 always fails.
I thought there was a rumor a while back about there being army specific detachments? and I guess what magic number would make them more viable in terms of CP generation. For instance If there was the typical ork warband detachment. 2 HQ and 3 Ork boy units = 7 CP? Would it be viable at that point? or worse would we end up spamming this detachment with 10 man boy squads. What CP generation would it need to be to be 2 HQ and 3 30 man squads?
The problem with 3 blobs of Boyz is that you can only Da Jump one at a time. A Boy Blob that you don't Da Jump is just a big target for all your opponent's anti-Infantry (also if you fail a charge after Da Jump). To make a three Blob detachment work, Boyz would need better durability or speed to survive until they can cross the board. Deathskullz can help with the durability (KFF too, but it's pretty hard to keep that many models in a KFF bubble), and Evil Sunz can speed you up, but even in these Kulturz it's incredibly risky. Remember that each Blob costs over 1/10th of your point total, so losing one before it can do anything is a huge blow.
Being expensive also means you have less points for other "heavy lifting" units. As Jid mentioned, Boyz have a primary purpose of locking units into CC to prevent them from shooting. This means you need other units to actually deal damage (though against Infantry, Boyz can handle this well enough) and score Objectives. And Boyz themselves aren't actually all that CP hungry, outside of EGT and Get Stuck In, so additional CP doesn't do them a whole lot of good.
So, for me, the risks of bringing 3 Boy Blobz outweigh the benefits of any increase in CP generation. But if you wanna bring em, you can probably still perform just fine outside of a hyper-competitive environment.
As for the Gitz: I believe most folks are putting 12 of the in a Trukk and fielding them that way.
I don't get FG in trukk, you can't benefit from freebooterz and you can't benefit from Badrukk. You loose like 50% of offensive for mere 10 extra W T6.
You can benefit from Freebooterz if the Transport does (because it transfers ALL Modifiers to the occupants). I believe it's mostly used as a means to get your otherwise slow Gitz into range with their 24" guns. And you can also Loot It to give then a 3+ Save, for a bit more survivability after it pops.
mhalko1 wrote: I thought there was a rumor a while back about there being army specific detachments? and I guess what magic number would make them more viable in terms of CP generation. For instance If there was the typical ork warband detachment. 2 HQ and 3 Ork boy units = 7 CP? Would it be viable at that point? or worse would we end up spamming this detachment with 10 man boy squads. What CP generation would it need to be to be 2 HQ and 3 30 man squads?
To be honest, you'd probably just see people bring 3 10 man squads of Boyz if the extra CP was worth it, which probably isn't that much better than just bringing 3 10 man grot squads in terms of being thematic. We need CP too badly in order to compete.
footfoe wrote:
I see Flash Gits being talked about a little in this thread. I think they're really cool and want to use them, but their rules seem super awkward.
Are they competitively viable? if so how do you field them?
I don't think they've been in any top 4 lists, but they are probably just a couple hairs below viable. Baddruk is an awesome HQ on his own, though.
The main problems they face are short ranged guns combined with not being able to shoot twice guaranteed; they fill a similar role to Lootas, but Lootas are probably better, even with the various # shots and mob up nerfs. They also cannot get grot shields without fielding an entire detachment of Freebootas, and with the # of D2 shots around, are in s
I think generally people put them in a trukk or wagon. You can pile Baddruk, 2 ammo runts, and 9 flash gitz in a trukk, and then loot the trukk when it pops for a 3+ armour save for the unit. The ammo runts give some ablative wounds as well for disembarking / shooting. If you didn't wanna field Baddruk, you could also just do 10 gitz + 2 runts.
flandarz wrote:
The problem with 3 blobs of Boyz is that you can only Da Jump one at a time. A Boy Blob that you don't Da Jump is just a big target for all your opponent's anti-Infantry (also if you fail a charge after Da Jump). To make a three Blob detachment work, Boyz would need better durability or speed to survive until they can cross the board. Deathskullz can help with the durability (KFF too, but it's pretty hard to keep that many models in a KFF bubble), and Evil Sunz can speed you up, but even in these Kulturz it's incredibly risky. Remember that each Blob costs over 1/10th of your point total, so losing one before it can do anything is a huge blow.
Being expensive also means you have less points for other "heavy lifting" units. As Jid mentioned, Boyz have a primary purpose of locking units into CC to prevent them from shooting. This means you need other units to actually deal damage (though against Infantry, Boyz can handle this well enough) and score Objectives. And Boyz themselves aren't actually all that CP hungry, outside of EGT and Get Stuck In, so additional CP doesn't do them a whole lot of good.
So, for me, the risks of bringing 3 Boy Blobz outweigh the benefits of any increase in CP generation. But if you wanna bring em, you can probably still perform just fine outside of a hyper-competitive environment.
As for the Gitz: I believe most folks are putting 12 of the in a Trukk and fielding them that way.
KFF + Painboy gives boyz roughly 45% chance of making a save; but this is probably still not enough to make them survivable slogging.
And now, with the new Marine toys like Auspex Scan, it's hard to deep strike boyz without them getting totally blown apart.
I had a discussion with a SM player the other day. He claimed that eliminators in cover can get 1+ due the rule that gives them +2 when in cover.
I said that is impossible because MANZ cannot have 1+ thanks to loot it, so nobody can have it
We discussed it a while, arriving nowhere .
So I shot one unit with smashaguns and tripointed another one
Who is right ?
the difference was that loot it changes the characteristic. so they would be a 1+ SV. this is differerent then getting a +2 to save and being at a 2+ SV already. and again the +2 and -4 would offset to become -2 or the same as a 4+ roll needed to save.
Lol the new 56 point Mortifiers there (the penitent engines piloted by sisters, the new type) can dish out 15 attacks strengh 6 attacks ap-2 after having fired 6 heavy bolter shots (no penalty to move as they can make em assault).
3 of these, for only 168 points, can just walk up to a 30 boyz mob, shoot, charge, and more or less wipe em out with just one buff.
They are movement 9 so they should get there quite easily. It really is not just SM now.
footfoe wrote: I see Flash Gits being talked about a little in this thread. I think they're really cool and want to use them, but their rules seem super awkward.
Are they competitively viable? if so how do you field them?
They have had multiple appearances even on top tables. You basically use them instead of lootas as they require a grot shield to work. Use turn one to bring them and their gretchin in position somewhere near the center of the board (preferably in cover) and then just shoot away until everything with 24" is gone or they die. In general, it's better to move and shoot a good target than stay still and shoot a sub-optimal target.
Alternatively, you can put them in a battlewagon with a unit of gretchin to do the same.
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mhalko1 wrote: I thought there was a rumor a while back about there being army specific detachments? and I guess what magic number would make them more viable in terms of CP generation. For instance If there was the typical ork warband detachment. 2 HQ and 3 Ork boy units = 7 CP? Would it be viable at that point? or worse would we end up spamming this detachment with 10 man boy squads. What CP generation would it need to be to be 2 HQ and 3 30 man squads?
90 points for 5 CP is still a better deal than 210 for 7 CP. Plus, you don't really want to incentive more than 3x 30 boyz because of chess clocks.
Right now the mix of 3-6 units of gretchin and 3 units of boyz is quite healthy, so both units are good compared to each other. If you improve or nerf one, this balance will topple. What we really need is to have trukk boyz which can replace either.
flandarz wrote: You can benefit from Freebooterz if the Transport does (because it transfers ALL Modifiers to the occupants). I believe it's mostly used as a means to get your otherwise slow Gitz into range with their 24" guns. And you can also Loot It to give then a 3+ Save, for a bit more survivability after it pops.
Are you absolutely sure about this? That freeboterz trait is great but confuses me utterly everytime!
Been covered multiple times, Open-Topped confers modifiers (exclusively denying the Mobile Fortress anti-modifier) that the transport gains to the occupants. Occupants are technically NOT benefiting from the Freeboota trait, they are benefiting from Open-Topped sharing it through the wagon/trukk. If it were possible to put nonfreeboota in there they would benefit from it too. Seeing as how its literally the only modifier our codex even has...its also the only rule that actually DOES get shared by open-topped
Hmm....never thought about that one. Not 100% sure if that would work since its conditional modifier but off hand it makes sense. I'd have to have that strat infront of me to remember exactly how its worded.
Overall really kinda crap. Pistol is actually punchy but typical pistol range makes that a moot point, and hes still a grot so super easy to kill despite 3W and5+. His "gift" ability is stikkbombs on a 2+, causing a mortal wound otherwise. Stikkbombs....really? If that was Tankbusta bombs oh feth yeah lol.
But....is 30pts worth giving grots a 6+ leadership? edit: nvm just noticed they literally said "will be joining legacy soon" in the article. Other armies get out of codex releases and we get legacy crap. Nice one GW
Not expecting a ton of change in chapter approved mostly waiting for psychic awakening next book to get past the blood angel tyranid push and onto the space wolf vs ork book and hope for the best!
Lol Da Red Gobbo is yet another slap in our green faces. First new model for our faction all year, can't use it in tournament play (despite it being awful). Legends is going to gut our faction from the meta entirely. I haven't seen a list without index choices finish in the top 4 since before the marine meta. The sisters look broken too. Welcome to 8.5 edition, only another 18 months to wait until we get decent rules, if our wait for a codex is anything to go by.
Yeah orks are easily the main army hurt by the legacy thing. I cant think of any other army that has more than 3 things that are Legacy only, and we have 8(10)
(MABoss, Bikeboss, KFF Mek, Bike Mek, Painboy Bike, Wartrakk, Warbuggy, Big Guns, and if you wanna count them Zogwort/Wazdakka).
I dont think the 3 looted vehicle profiles count as Legacy since they have no point costs.
flandarz wrote: Have you seriously lost 30 Boyz to a single Overwatch? That's crazy. Even against a Tau Sept gun bubble, I don't think I've ever lost more than 15 at most.
Sadly I am not exaggerating in the slightest :( I faced off against a Tau onion of death (50 Firewarriors) I tried to assault it, he had the buff character near it which gave it 150 shots as Tau sept so hitting on 5s. He rolled slightly above average hits like 60ish and wounding on 3s meant he wiped the unit out in overwatch. An onion of death is basically an assault proof unit so long as you don't get a strategy that lets you avoid overwatch.
That is when I decided I had to take a loota bomb to counter the tau onion of death and a bunch of other factions ridiculous tactics. The next time I met that player in a tournament he tried the same thing, I double shot my Lootas with exploding 5s and wiped out his onion turn 1 along with a broadside suit. Turn 2 I assaulted him and it was basically GG.
I'm actually surprised they gave above average stats for the Red Gobbo, he's still not great but at least he's flavourful for narrative games and I personally laugh at how he can kill a grot unit he's passing out the stikkbombs to.
(da unmies got dat right)
