Grimskul wrote: I'm actually surprised they gave above average stats for the Red Gobbo, he's still not great but at least he's flavourful for narrative games and I personally laugh at how he can kill a grot unit he's passing out the stikkbombs to.
Just another useless model. I was torn the other day on whether or not to buy it....i'm glad i decided against it, those rules are terrible. 6+ leadership is garbage, stikkbomms is terrible, the only thing worth a damn on him is his pistol so in essence you are overpaying for a crappier version of a heavy bolter with 1/3rd the range and a complete lack of durability.
Jidmah wrote: I never saw KMB koptas nor mini meks as a worthwhile investments of my points. You are getting +2 CP for spending over 200 points on six ~BS4 shots...
MA Warboss, Bikeboss, KFF Mek and Bike Mek are painful though. To be fair Orks have all but disappeared from the upper echelons of competitive play since Marines dropped anyway. The latest Stats Centre break down in some detail how badly hit we, GSC and Eldar have been hit. It aint pretty.
While I agree on the units, the part about competitive play is not true. Orks have seen roughly the same amount of top placements in large tournaments as before, just less tournament winners - despite being able to go undefeated against the marine meta, marines just score more points than orks.
Jid man you’re wrong on this. I hate to say it but the stats speak for themselves and they paint an awful picture. Win rate down something like 6%, TWIP down below 2, more Ork players losing quicker than ever before on average and less points earned on average. The stats that represent a competitive faction in 40k all point to Orks (among others) dropping off the edge of a cliff. Yes players have gone undefeated in very rare situations where, it is believed, they simply didn’t face marines.
Orks can not compete in the Marine meta, or if they can no one has figured out how to make them able yet, the stats back this up entirely.
flandarz wrote: Have you seriously lost 30 Boyz to a single Overwatch? That's crazy. Even against a Tau Sept gun bubble, I don't think I've ever lost more than 15 at most.
Sadly I am not exaggerating in the slightest :( I faced off against a Tau onion of death (50 Firewarriors) I tried to assault it, he had the buff character near it which gave it 150 shots as Tau sept so hitting on 5s. He rolled slightly above average hits like 60ish and wounding on 3s meant he wiped the unit out in overwatch. An onion of death is basically an assault proof unit so long as you don't get a strategy that lets you avoid overwatch.
That is when I decided I had to take a loota bomb to counter the tau onion of death and a bunch of other factions ridiculous tactics. The next time I met that player in a tournament he tried the same thing, I double shot my Lootas with exploding 5s and wiped out his onion turn 1 along with a broadside suit. Turn 2 I assaulted him and it was basically GG.
Man, that's some bad luck. On average, even assuming a -1 AP to remove your Save, you should have only lost about half your unit (16.6 models). But yeah, you HAVE to weaken that onion with some solid shooting first. Right now, the only Tau unit I really have issues with are Riptides and their "we take a MW and now we have a 3++ Save" shenanigans.
I've been literally checking the top 4 placements of all GT every week and posting them to this thread, and we had three top 4 placements just last week, with one of those 3 tying for first place.
Edit: Just for completeness - no orks in the top 4 this week, but this has happened before marines as well.
On the topic of the Red Gobbo: I don't think he's "garbage". The Stikkbomb ability is pretty bad (again, because no Extra Stikkbombs), but Leadership 6 on Gretchin is still 2 less lost to Morale (on average). Probably still better off just letting the Grots run away, of course. Still, he's only 30 pts, and his wargear and stat line ain't awful for that cost.
If we're gonna color-code him, he's probably Yellow. Obviously not very competitive, but he's not gonna actively hurt you to take either. That said, he'd be an easy Green if he's an HQ. Him, a Weirdboy, and 3 10 man Gretchin squads will give you a 182 pt CP Battery. But, I think (like the Runtherd) he ain't got a battlefield role, which kinda sucks.
flandarz wrote: Have you seriously lost 30 Boyz to a single Overwatch? That's crazy. Even against a Tau Sept gun bubble, I don't think I've ever lost more than 15 at most.
Sadly I am not exaggerating in the slightest :( I faced off against a Tau onion of death (50 Firewarriors) I tried to assault it, he had the buff character near it which gave it 150 shots as Tau sept so hitting on 5s. He rolled slightly above average hits like 60ish and wounding on 3s meant he wiped the unit out in overwatch. An onion of death is basically an assault proof unit so long as you don't get a strategy that lets you avoid overwatch.
That is when I decided I had to take a loota bomb to counter the tau onion of death and a bunch of other factions ridiculous tactics. The next time I met that player in a tournament he tried the same thing, I double shot my Lootas with exploding 5s and wiped out his onion turn 1 along with a broadside suit. Turn 2 I assaulted him and it was basically GG.
Man, that's some bad luck. On average, even assuming a -1 AP to remove your Save, you should have only lost about half your unit (16.6 models). But yeah, you HAVE to weaken that onion with some solid shooting first. Right now, the only Tau unit I really have issues with are Riptides and their "we take a MW and now we have a 3++ Save" shenanigans.
50 firewarriors with 150 shots hitting on 5s is 50 hits on average (rerolling 1s is another 8ish) so 58 hits on average, wounding on 3s = 39ish, vs a 6+ save = wiped mob. even without rerolling 1s its 150 shots, 50 hits 33 wounds vs a 6+ save = 28dead orkz so those 50 firewarriors only need to kill 3 wounds of T4 6+ save in CC to finish the squad off. Not exactly hard to do.
flandarz wrote: On the topic of the Red Gobbo: I don't think he's "garbage". The Stikkbomb ability is pretty bad (again, because no Extra Stikkbombs), but Leadership 6 on Gretchin is still 2 less lost to Morale (on average). Probably still better off just letting the Grots run away, of course. Still, he's only 30 pts, and his wargear and stat line ain't awful for that cost.
If we're gonna color-code him, he's probably Yellow. Obviously not very competitive, but he's not gonna actively hurt you to take either. That said, he'd be an easy Green if he's an HQ. Him, a Weirdboy, and 3 10 man Gretchin squads will give you a 182 pt CP Battery. But, I think (like the Runtherd) he ain't got a battlefield role, which kinda sucks.
I have to disagree, he does actively hurt you. If he was ALL Grots are fearless he would be great! but he isn't. for 5pts more you can get a Runtherd who makes grotz nearby fearless for all intents and purposes. So again, you are paying 10x for a single above average grot with a D3 shot S5 AP-1 pistol. He is solid red for me
If people took more that MSUs of Gretchin, I might agree. But at that size, the difference between the Red Gobbo giving 6+ and the Runtherd killing D3 is slim. At 1-4 Casualties, the Red Gobbo provides better Morale protection, but the Runtherd never manages to save more than +1 or 2 Grots in a 10 man squad, even at 6-7 Casualties. He's also, arguably, more killy and useful. His gun is an upgrade in every sense of the word, his melee doesn't lag TOO far behind the Runtherd, and while Stikkbomb giving ain't great, it can be situationally useful.
I still wanna know if he has a battlefield role though, cuz just having that definitely ups his viability.
Some fun facts, red gobbo can be used for Grot Shields stratagem Take that, YA RELEASE EATIN GIT.
Some gakkier tactics, Da Red Gobbo can give Grot Orderlies / Ammo Runts and others Stikk Bombs, making them slightly useful (Especially in the context of flash gitz, possibly helping them proc Showoffs).
He can also give grenades to Killa Kanz and Mek Gunz.
My original idea was giving it to mek gunz, and having the "Grots" throw grenades after being buffed by the Mek Workshop. They auto hit because no Ballistic Skill (Raw, they can only shoot if BS is not -, and must roll higher than their BS). But it looks like the Mek Krew wording denies this.
Yeah, I think Mek Krew would require that they use the Gun's BS (as they're treated as a single model for ALL rules purposes). Still, those were some things I hadn't considered... neat. Giving Stikkbombs to Kanz is particularly interesting. They could have Rokkits for armor and Stikkbombz to deter infantry charging them.
orks are not out of the competitive scene.... Jid mentions the top4 quite often and theres usually an ork in there. Hell an Ork was the only list capable of beating pre-nerf IronHands cheese.
What they ARE is unfluffy, but then again who is at the top of tournaments? MANz with red paint instead of buggies...pssh... fer shame...
Jid, Vineheart - I’m not going to dance this dance with you. I literally know you are wrong (unless the guys that run 40k stats have some agenda to show Orks are weaker than they are). Listen to the latest 40k stats centre, Falcon breaks this all down at the start of the episode - not just how strong (OP) Marines are, but also how they have affected the meta and certain factions. The one Ork list you see in the top 4 at a small event most weeks is not representative of what is happening across the competitive scene. Simply put - your data sample is too small and your information too lacking to make any real judgement. I don’t have some vested interest in getting you to listen to stats centre, except to educate yourself. If you can’t be bothered that’s fine, but as I say the stats literally show that you are both wrong - Orks have seriously dropped in terms of competitive viability since Marines launched. This is a provable fact.
Grimskul wrote: I'm actually surprised they gave above average stats for the Red Gobbo, he's still not great but at least he's flavourful for narrative games and I personally laugh at how he can kill a grot unit he's passing out the stikkbombs to.
Flavorful...for narratives? Unless you are playing a school musical can't see how Santa fits in 40k
An Actual Englishman wrote: Jid, Vineheart - Orks have seriously dropped in terms of competitive viability since Marines launched. This is a provable fact.
So, to summarise, the sky is falling on our heads - again. And, in other news?
Not sure if the one in six chance of a Mortal Wound is worth the Stikk Bombs on Kanz - are they not deployed as a unit, so only get to use one grenade per? I can see it for Gunz, but they would have to be within 6” of the enemy to benefit, so definitely situational. Think I’d rather have an extra Gun.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Jid, Vineheart - Orks have seriously dropped in terms of competitive viability since Marines launched. This is a provable fact.
So, to summarise, the sky is falling on our heads - again. And, in other news?
The sky has well and truly fallen. Orks are already, currently nonviable in competitive play with Marines. Feel free to test this theory with your friends - play against marines and see how well your Orks perform. I'm surprised some of you don't see the issue for yourselves, I can only assume you haven't played marines much or don't play much generally.
Jidmah wrote: I never saw KMB koptas nor mini meks as a worthwhile investments of my points. You are getting +2 CP for spending over 200 points on six ~BS4 shots...
Not a very competitive combo of course, you won't see them in tournaments. Still 30pts cheaper than two shokkjump dragstas, arguably the same firepower, but more wounds and the ability to deepstrike (koptas) and to repair vehicles (meks). They also help filling a brigade if you don't want tons of boring HQs. They're a solid alternative for casual and fluffy games, I've played them very often and never really regretted them, just know what you're taking, while I can't say the same for the dragstas.
The sky has well and truly fallen. Orks are already, currently nonviable in competitive play with Marines.
I agree. Stop referring only to tournament datas and start considering real games with no time limitations. Orks do way better in 3 turns games than in real regular ones. They're not as competitive as they look on paper because they benefit a lot from tournaments formulas.
To be fair, English has been saying Orkz are bad since the Codex dropped. That said, I can see how we'd be doing poorly when Marines can Overwatch better than Tau, can deny Deepstrike, and generally just shut down a lot of our options with one or two Chapters. So, in this instance, I'm libel to agree with English that the Marine Codex and Supplements have given us a beating. Still, I'd be shocked if our win percentage has dropped below 40%, which I'd still consider "competitive".
flandarz wrote: To be fair, English has been saying Orkz are bad since the Codex dropped. That said, I can see how we'd be doing poorly when Marines can Overwatch better than Tau, can deny Deepstrike, and generally just shut down a lot of our options with one or two Chapters. So, in this instance, I'm libel to agree with English that the Marine Codex and Supplements have given us a beating. Still, I'd be shocked if our win percentage has dropped below 40%, which I'd still consider "competitive".
Marine win rate is 60%, what do you consider that? Also funny that when I used win percentage as a qualifier some months ago everyone jumped on me and said I wasn't looking at a thorough enough breadth of stats (such as TWiP, first loss etc). Now I've shown all of those stats also show that we're no longer competitive the response is 'but we finish in the top 4 some weeks!'
I was quite clear, I thought, that Marines are in a REALLY good spot right now. I'm not arguing that. 60% ain't THAT bad, though. With all the talk, I was under the impression that were closer to 90%. 60% means that, while they win a lot, you'll still beat them 2 out of every 5 games.
I "jumped" on ya because you went with a vague "Ork's win percent is under 50%" which, while true, made the 48% win rate we had seem far lower.
Like I said, unless we've dropped under 40%, I'd still consider Orkz to be competitive. In a meta where the top winning Faction is only at 60%, 40% really ain't that bad.
flandarz wrote: I was quite clear, I thought, that Marines are in a REALLY good spot right now. I'm not arguing that. 60% ain't THAT bad, though. With all the talk, I was under the impression that were closer to 90%. 60% means that, while they win a lot, you'll still beat them 2 out of every 5 games.
I "jumped" on ya because you went with a vague "Ork's win percent is under 50%" which, while true, made the 48% win rate we had seem far lower.
Like I said, unless we've dropped under 40%, I'd still consider Orkz to be competitive. In a meta where the top winning Faction is only at 60%, 40% really ain't that bad.
Isn't the problem with the "only 60%" that mirror matches are included as well and scew the statistics in so far that they do not represent the rate with which marines win against other armies?
flandarz wrote: I was quite clear, I thought, that Marines are in a REALLY good spot right now. I'm not arguing that. 60% ain't THAT bad, though. With all the talk, I was under the impression that were closer to 90%. 60% means that, while they win a lot, you'll still beat them 2 out of every 5 games.
I "jumped" on ya because you went with a vague "Ork's win percent is under 50%" which, while true, made the 48% win rate we had seem far lower.
Like I said, unless we've dropped under 40%, I'd still consider Orkz to be competitive. In a meta where the top winning Faction is only at 60%, 40% really ain't that bad.
Lol 60% is broken. I believe it includes mirror matches too, so most of those losses are against other marines. That isn't our win rate against them either, our win rate is closer to 30% vs new Marines.
Your arbitrary 'unless we've dropped under 40% I'd still consider Orkz to be competitive' is bogus. You're the only person who'd consider a faction that loses 60% of the time competitive.
It is very, very bad (marines are 25% of all tournament lists, for example). I haven't got the time to go through the podcast again and relay it all to you, you can either trust me, listen to it yourself or simply ignore me and believe whatever you like. Unfortunately, because you're not an Ork, the latter option doesn't make the thing true.
30% against Marines IS awful. Of course, with CA on the way, that could change very soon, so I'll wait until then to decide if we're "screwed over proper".
To be fair, you were the only person who thought 48% wasn't competitive when we last had this conversation, so I think I'll wait til the others weigh in on the matter before I take your word that I'm the only person who thinks winning 2 out of every 5 games is competitive.
I am the first to say that SM are broken and that we fell down a tad too much, at the same time, if you dont mind asking English,
What list are you playin and what lists are you meeting that makes you feel so much despair?
I hope Tyranids get the short end of the stick, and Orks get the not so short end. Because it is sure as h... that at least one of these two armies is getting the dark eldar treatment as far as PA is concerned.
I have been playing both armies since 4th and 5th, and I have vivid memories of bitter disappointment over just so many GW publications... remember 7th Ed blood of Baal releases for nids, complete gak for no less than 5 new kits. Remember the ork supplement that gave the worst formations of all 7th edition...
So much gak is coming, brace yourselves.
It's worth remembering that if the majority of lists nowadays are marines lists, their win ratio will skew with it. If 30% of games in each tournament are marines vs marines, there's going to be a marine success in there. I don't know if they compare the ration of marine wins vs marine losses, or just total games vs marine wins. If it's the latter, it will skew horribly - If a tournament was purely marines, 100% of the games would be won by marines.
Let me give you guys an idea of how messed up the current meta is;
Marines make up 25% of the field.
Marines make up 45% of all lists that go 4-0 at a tournament.
Iron hands make up 40% of all marine lists so roughly 10% of the field.
Iron hands make up 27% of all lists that go 4-0 at a tournament.
The primary counter to Iron Hands are daemons or other marines. Most factions have a 20% - 30% win rate vs them.
Orks win rate has dropped 7% since marine releases. Our TWiP is way down. Average first loss is below 2 (so we lose most often in the 2nd round). Boyz we are fethed.
Marines make up 25% of the field.
Marines make up 45% of all lists that go 4-0 at a tournament.
Iron hands make up 40% of all marine lists so roughly 10% of the field.
Iron hands make up 27% of all lists that go 4-0 at a tournament.
The primary counter to Iron Hands are daemons or other marines. Most factions have a 20% - 30% win rate vs them.
Orks win rate has dropped 7% since marine releases. Our TWiP is way down. Average first loss is below 2 (so we lose most often in the 2nd round). Boyz we are fethed.
Marines make up 25% of the field.
Marines make up 45% of all lists that go 4-0 at a tournament.
Iron hands make up 40% of all marine lists so roughly 10% of the field.
Iron hands make up 27% of all lists that go 4-0 at a tournament.
The primary counter to Iron Hands are daemons or other marines. Most factions have a 20% - 30% win rate vs them.
Orks win rate has dropped 7% since marine releases. Our TWiP is way down. Average first loss is below 2 (so we lose most often in the 2nd round). Boyz we are fethed.
Can you send us the sources?
I've given them already - google "40k stats centre - falcone breaks down the marine meta" and go from there. By extension 40k stats is the source.
Any time you base you argument on data, you should provide a direct link to your source. And yes, it's annoying to do on the phone, but if you can't be bothered to provide sources, why should anybody bother arguing your point?
Anyways, you just blindly compare numbers without interpreting them or asking yourself what they actually do tell us.
First of all, those stats do not exclusively reference people playing the game competitively, they reference the entire bandwidth of people playing tournaments. And no, that is not the same. Many people, even on dakka, have said that they don't go to these events for to win, but for the event itself. Seasoned competitive players have said multiple times that the vast majority of tournament players just builds the hardest list available from their collection and try to do well with it, few do massive changes to their armies when the meta shifts. The people who do that tend to show up in the top 4s regularly.
Second, those stats have a real hard time compensating for people switching armies. Many names you used to see running eldar, knights or chaos soup to top finishes are now running iron hands and white scars. If people have two or armies to chose from, the chance is extremely high that one of them is a marine army, because they are both cheap to start from box sets, and have been competitive during this edition before. There is no way of knowing how many ork players have switched to marines because they win more or because they own an army that does better in a marine-polluted environment. In addition, ork tend to attract more hobby-oriented players than other factions because of aesthetics and modeling opportunities.
So, saying orks have no way of beating marines is not a conclusion you can draw from those, considering that we have six examples of ork player going undefeated or 4-1 at GTs despite marine meta.
So what do those numbers tell us?
In general, they say that the average ork player has a hard time beating the average marine player. To which I would agree, marines were already a tough nut to crack for a non-optimized ork list, which might very well have become impossible to do now. Something you can take away from the orks that did do well since Marines 2.0 is that most of them have brought 12-18 smashas.
Which is definitely not something your average ork player has, since you can buy pretty much the entire ork range instead of those 18 mek guns and tournaments rarely allow kitbashes or third party models for them. Before we had many lists substituting them with lootas, tank bustas, flash gits or planes, most ork collections can do that, many still have 15+ lootas from 5th edition.
Or, in other words: you beat marines by throwing money at them.
Competitive ork lists no longer allow you the freedom of not bringing those extremely efficient smashas if you want to beat competitive marines, while a marine list has much more freedom of what to bring since even third tier units are quite powerful due to all the power and utility the new units, stratagems, doctrines and chapter traits provide.
So our army is once again hinging on an obviously badly balanced choice to pull us through competitive games, which is not good at all, we can tell from experience.
So you are essentially not wrong. However, since you have been crying wolf ever since GW announced speed freeks, other ork players stopped listening to you. You might want to reflect on that.
I believe the point of every discussion is to put you facts vs somebody else facts and that try to find a solution. If the point of discussing is to be right , than is a monologue. Which is not very interesting to hear of this thread since we are trying to find solutions to a problem
Jidmah wrote: Any time you base you argument on data, you should provide a direct link to your source. And yes, it's annoying to do on the phone, but if you can't be bothered to provide sources, why should anybody bother arguing your point?
I had no convenient way to post the source I have provided like 3 times already. If you're on here you must have internet connection and can find it yourself, stop being lazy.
Anyways, you just blindly compare numbers without interpreting them or asking yourself what they actually do tell us.
No. I don't. I listen to a podcast that goes into detail on all of these numbers and more while trying to make sense of them. Though I share these opinions, they aren't entirely my own. The guy who runs 40k stats breaks all this down.
First of all, those stats do not exclusively reference people playing the game competitively, they reference the entire bandwidth of people playing tournaments. And no, that is not the same. Many people, even on dakka, have said that they don't go to these events for to win, but for the event itself. Seasoned competitive players have said multiple times that the vast majority of tournament players just builds the hardest list available from their collection and try to do well with it, few do massive changes to their armies when the meta shifts. The people who do that tend to show up in the top 4s regularly.
So? This isn't a problem unique to Orks is it? Presumably every faction had a roughly equal split of 'casual' to 'meta defining' tournament players so its a wash.
Also most if not all people go to a tournament hoping to win all of their games, no matter how unlikely.
Second, those stats have a real hard time compensating for people switching armies. Many names you used to see running eldar, knights or chaos soup to top finishes are now running iron hands and white scars. If people have two or armies to chose from, the chance is extremely high that one of them is a marine army, because they are both cheap to start from box sets, and have been competitive during this edition before. There is no way of knowing how many ork players have switched to marines because they win more or because they own an army that does better in a marine-polluted environment.
Yes and doesn't the fact that our best players have left to play Marines tell you that something might be a bit iffy? Doesn't this prove my point, in that if Orks were competitive they would retain and/or attract better players?
In addition, ork tend to attract more hobby-oriented players than other factions because of aesthetics and modeling opportunities.
And those players don't go to tournaments and you're exaggerating the point. Orks aren't riddled with awful players. Quite the opposite because to have a decent game for like 3 editions you had to literally be a better player than your opponent if you played Orks, we were that bad.
So, saying orks have no way of beating marines is not a conclusion you can draw from those
Nor is it a conclusion I have made. Anywhere. What I have said is that were nonviable in the current meta and that we can't compete. You might beat a marine list. Its very unlikely you beat the 4th and 5th round marine list though.
considering that we have six examples of ork player going undefeated or 4-1 at GTs despite marine meta.
Do those lists face marines on their way to going 4-0? Did they have an easy route to get there? How many Marine lists have gone undefeated or 4-1 in the same time? Too few variables.
So what do those numbers tell us?
In general, they say that the average ork player has a hard time beating the average marine player. To which I would agree, marines were already a tough nut to crack for a non-optimized ork list, which might very well have become impossible to do now. Something you can take away from the orks that did do well since Marines 2.0 is that most of them have brought 12-18 smashas.
If you'd listen to the podcast you'd know that we've seen a consolidation of lists, the 'non-optimised' Ork lists simply aren't taken. Ben Jurek's Freeboota list has disappeared from competitive play, for example. You're right on Smashas though.
Which is definitely not something your average ork player has, since you can buy pretty much the entire ork range instead of those 18 mek guns and tournaments rarely allow kitbashes or third party models for them.
Rubbish. As if tournaments disallow the classic Trukk + 4 Mek Guns kitbash. This is simply wrong. Plenty Ork players have access to 12-18 Smashas (if they want to take them), the problem is that they give up too many kill points in ITC format. Which is why they're taken a lot more here and in Europe.
Before we had many lists substituting them with lootas, tank bustas, flash gits or planes, most ork collections can do that, many still have 15+ lootas from 5th edition.
Or, in other words: you beat marines by throwing money at them.
Again. This is bull. You think top players like Steve Pampreen lack the means to acquire 18 Smashas or do you think he reckoned his chances of winning were better with Marines than Orks? We're getting into tinfoil territory here Jid.
Competitive ork lists no longer allow you the freedom of not bringing those extremely efficient smashas if you want to beat competitive marines, while a marine list has much more freedom of what to bring since even third tier units are quite powerful due to all the power and utility the new units, stratagems, doctrines and chapter traits provide.
So our army is once again hinging on an obviously badly balanced choice to pull us through competitive games, which is not good at all, we can tell from experience.
So you are essentially not wrong. However, since you have been crying wolf ever since GW announced speed freeks, other ork players stopped listening to you. You might want to reflect on that.
I can live without randoms on the internet listening to me Jid and your bizarre fallacies. Don't worry, my fragile psyche will cope, somehow. I thought it might be useful for others who might be wondering why their 'competitive' Ork list is no ljger performing.
CA will be interesting. It had the potential to open up options or completely ruin us.
The only person who has shared any facts for the last 3 pages is me. Just because they don’t align with your opinion it doesn’t mean you need to take it out on me. Please share those facts of yours that I’ve continuously ignored? It’s literally the opposite lol. I’ve posted stats, podcast information on the current meta that you have literally spent a massive post trying to debunk. Is this a personal thing or something? Do you have a problem because I’m posting this?
There are no ad hominem attacks in my post. Perhaps you need to take a break or something because you’re coming across very badly, again. Get a grip.
I think you should both look up and research dissonance theory, then apply some self analysis. Then take a fresh look at your position.
In short, I think both of you to varying degrees are letting the result you want bias your thinking. This is why you can both look at the same or very similar statistics and draw opposite conclusions.
Here is what I view to be the facts.
1. Marines have gotten a significant boost in all areas.
2. The new supplemental codexes are very strong, with Iron hands providing stratagems that are very very good.
3. More players are playing space marines
4. Orks have received no help and only nerfs since their codex was released.
This means that orks are less powerful and are going to have a harder time competing. However, this doesn't answer the question being batted about, which is
Are orks still competitive, meaning can a player win a good sized, competitive tournament with orks?
I think the answer is yes, orks can win, but I also think that in order for an ork player to do so he either has to have better luck, or be a better player than his marine opponent based on the lists that orks were taking before new marines showed up.
I think it is also too early to tell if orks can shift and make better anti marine builds. In other words we don't have the data yet to determine if orks can adjust to the new marine meta, but ork players in order to compete are going to need to tailor their lists to beat marines
This last is what we should be discussing, not whether or not orks can beat marines, or how powerful our codex is but we should focus on what can be done to compete.
Only after orks move away from our lists designed to counter aeldari flyer, and Knight soup lists to lists focused on beating marines will we know if orks are out of the running or not.
So, how about it, to beat the new marines what do our lists need to look like?
This data should be taken with a grain of salt; drawing definitive explanations is tougher than you think. We aren't measuring on base percentage and stuff here.
We have some winning matches and losing matchups. Looks like SW and Marines seem to be our worst, and Sisters is off to a bad start (but lets give that a few months).
Portions of the Ork build I think is about to go out of style. Infiltrators are busted, and a few armies can easily wreck the boy blob before it does much (which is a huge waste of points if they can't infiltrate, yay for 12" no DS bubble). But to honest, I think there are game winning strategies still. Mek Gunz are still insanely undercosted, SAG spam is still incredibly powerful, even against marines.
I think a grot tide that really leans into our shooting is probably a winner, even against nuMarines, it's probably just miserable to field / paint / expensive to build. Most armies will not be happy to face down 300 models, and they can't get to our SSAG (snipers trying to kill your SSAG? Grot shield them! Good luck getting the eliminators through that gak).
CA and PA may actually shake things up for us; there are a ton of underutilized models that they may drop in points just to sell them (looking at you, buggies!). PA has been mixed, but there has been some legitimately powerful stuff released. Ork psychic stuff, although useful, seems to really be under developed. I'm curious to see if they actually make Weirdboyz more interesting.
Unbelievable. There’s no bias here, if people actually read what I’ve written before rage-typing a stupid response they’d see that I’ve stated that this issue isn’t unique to Orks. This isn’t me banging a ‘woe is me, Orks are awful’ drum, I’ve literally presented facts. GSC, IK, Tyranids, Custodes are all in a similar position to us. CWE can’t seem to beat Iron Hands. Literally every power armour army, including non-codex Astartes has had a boost.
It is a fact that our first loss in the Marine meta is now below 2 (this isn’t a good thing).
It is a fact that our win percentage has dropped some 7% since marines launched.
It is a fact that we have a much smaller TWIP than we have had (it’s proportionally smaller than our player base) since marines launched.
The funniest/most insane thing is that I’ve repeatedly provided my source for this and some of you are so desperate to strawman or ad hominem that you’ve completely ignored it. I’m genuinely baffled how you can possibly think you’re anything but biased if you’re unwilling to even educate yourself when a source of information is offered to you. But whatever. You know better than people who spend hours every week analysing the stats on competitive 40k, I guess.
The facts above are a summary of my arguments. I’ll add that if far better players than me decided that it would be better/easier to join marines rather than figure out what the anti marine Ork list is then there probably isn’t a great list out there.
But hey, best of luck to you if you want to keep chasing that unicorn.
Would Lootaz work well against nuMarines? S7, AP-1, and D2 seems like it should be pretty decent against their statblock, and paired with SAGs and Smashas, we should have enough firepower to deal with most anything they throw at us. Of course, Grot Spam could work too, for just holding down Objectives and being a pain to get rid of (but you better bring some means to mitigate those Morale losses), but it's obviously not a very satisfying way to win (and of there's a chess clock situation, you could end up running out of time by T3).
flandarz wrote: Would Lootaz work well against nuMarines? S7, AP-1, and D2 seems like it should be pretty decent against their statblock, and paired with SAGs and Smashas, we should have enough firepower to deal with most anything they throw at us. Of course, Grot Spam could work too, for just holding down Objectives and being a pain to get rid of (but you better bring some means to mitigate those Morale losses), but it's obviously not a very satisfying way to win (and of there's a chess clock situation, you could end up running out of time by T3).
Lootas weapons are great Primaris killers, but I think the issue you run in to is keeping them alive long enough for them to make a game lasting impact.
If we could keep Lootas reliably (at full strength) around even 2 full turns with Showing Off, they might be god tier for us in the marine meta. With 1 round of shooting? I dunno. Good, but maybe not game winning.
I heard a point recently. The new marines are so good because they are incredibly deadly *and* durable. If you can keep a model or unit on the board 4-6 turns, it's probably doing more for you then something that's slaughtered in 1-2 turns (even if on paper, it has way less killing power).
I am wondering if MANz get a decent point drop they'll have a resurgence, as they are one of the few things we can field that can take a punch without too much support.
Grot horde is definitely tough on the clock, but you might be able to get good enough at it to keep it under; just probably miserable to use even if you do. And runtherds are a cheap enough investment if you are actually fielding that many grots anyway. Fun fact! Their "breaking grot heads" ability isn't even clan locked.
Painboy aura would also be relatively easy to pass to a lot of grot units as well. With some decent KFF coverage, you could make this army *incredibly* annoying to remove from shooting.
Lootaz have the range, ap, damage and St to do the job. The question is how to find the points, keep them on the table, keep los and get them to hit.
All of these can be addressed - smaller armies, cover, multiple units, stratagems - but then we are playing the Marine game with Ork tools.
Flooding the board with Grots has worked 100% for me. But that was one game, at 500pts, vs Eldar, using Snakebites for the Fearless Grot trait around a Warboss :j
Have not played tournaments for a while, but learned long ago that you do not take Orks to tournament in the expectation of sweeping the board. Right or wrong, to do that you have to be prepared to spend money regularly and practice your game exhaustively.
The problem with Lootas is the 6+++ of iron hands and always in cover Raven Guard abilities. They're no longer reliable marine killers and they require significant investment to work.
Hopefully some of our vehicles can see a point drop in CA, cuz we have some decent Marine killers in there, if only they were priced appropriately. Bikers come to mind, and if they were cheaper, they'd be an excellent unit to use in the current meta.
I kinda feel like GW forgot that Ork durability is dependent on how much stuff we can field, rather than Saves or Toughness, and haven't been pricing us correctly for that.
I'll chime in with the lootas not being the the solution to marines
My reason is that you don't win the game by just blowing up all the primaris.
The units I want gone most when facing a marine army are the TF cannons, eliminators, executioners, centurions, interceptors and agressors, Lootas aren't good against any of those, either because they are hidden from view, have good armor saves, 3 wounds or T8.
Lootas are great against invictors, impulsors, storm talons and storm ravens though, which also see a fair amount of play, so they aren't worthless either. Right now I feel like tank bustas are a much better choice, as they work well against all those targets besides centurions.
In general, point drops could solve that problem for us - bone breakers, scrap jets, SJD, morkanauts and the wazbomm are all really good at killing those priority targets, but they cost too much.
Shower thought: Does the red gobo help enabling brigades?
He is one point less than a KMB mini-mek, and if you're not deff skulls he's better at shooting when you are not running deff skulls (BS 3+!). If you are feeling silly, he can even be your warlord.
Especially when trying to build a speed freeks army, I often find that none of the elite choices really snyergize with any of the fast things, but just throwing a 30 point grot with a decent gun in any of my transports seems like a good deal.
Jidmah wrote: I'll chime in with the lootas not being the the solution to marines
My reason is that you don't win the game by just blowing up all the primaris.
The units I want gone most when facing a marine army are the TF cannons, eliminators, executioners, centurions, interceptors and agressors, Lootas aren't good against any of those, either because they are hidden from view, have good armor saves, 3 wounds or T8.
Lootas are great against invictors, impulsors, storm talons and storm ravens though, which also see a fair amount of play, so they aren't worthless either. Right now I feel like tank bustas are a much better choice, as they work well against all those targets besides centurions.
Another issue is also primaris marines aren't exactly short of ways to remove those. Even pre-new codex I have had 15 lootas vaporized T1 behind 60 grots. Now with bolter drill and new codex and all the boosts...
Shower thought: Does the red gobo help enabling brigades?
He is one point less than a KMB mini-mek, and if you're not deff skulls he's better at shooting when you are not running deff skulls (BS 3+!). If you are feeling silly, he can even be your warlord.
Especially when trying to build a speed freeks army, I often find that none of the elite choices really snyergize with any of the fast things, but just throwing a 30 point grot with a decent gun in any of my transports seems like a good deal.
Could be. Of course being legends and not recommended for competive plays # of tournaments you can expect to use him are limited. Locally here he's 100% quaranteed to be out of usability.
tneva82 wrote: Another issue is also primaris marines aren't exactly short of ways to remove those. Even pre-new codex I have had 15 lootas vaporized T1 behind 60 grots. Now with bolter drill and new codex and all the boosts...
That's actually a very valid concern, especially since TF cannons are terrifyingly good at blowing up gretchin. Tank bustas can be hidden in the tellyporta, another advantage for them.
Could be. Of course being legends and not recommended for competive plays # of tournaments you can expect to use him are limited. Locally here he's 100% quaranteed to be out of usability.
Of course. I will be able to use legends indefinitely, but most likely tournaments will put an end to that. Model-wise he might also be a good proxy for Badrukk.
Every time I see "I lost 75 models in a single Turn" I have a small heart attack. Even with a 2+ BS, S8, and AP-1+, that's about 110 shots, on average (175 with a 3+, S5-7, and AP-1+). Guess it just makes me glad that my local meta doesn't include Marines, cuz that's just a crazy amount of firepower for 2k points. Especially if they still have units left to shoot after all that.
In my experience lootas aren't great against marines. Their AP-1 means that the humies will save a lot of hits (half or even more) while the green dudes still die pretty easily even with Grot Shields. Flash Gitz are more efficient but also more expensive and they need to be positioned in a perfect spot due to their worse range. Those pirates are also decent against marines but not so much against many other armies while lootas are tipycally more TAC oriented.
I'm not a fan of shielding units with gretchins since many armies can throw them too many shots that the unit you want to save suffers a significan amount of casualties, crippling the unit. Deepstriking bustas costs +1CP than shielding lootas but it's a guaranteed massacre as they'll shoot at full strenght no matter what. The only drawback is to make them arrive within range of the most juicy target but even if the opponent is smart enough to make impossible for the bustas to aim at it they will still have valuable targets to get their points back.
My personal take is to avoid both lootas and flash gitz against SM and field tons of Smasha guns. As many as you can. Then I'd bring the deepstriking max unit of 15 (+6 bomb squigs) tankbustas which should melt 3 tanks/flyers or a knight. The souped up SAG and eventually up to other two SAG will complete the shooting options in my typical list against competitive marines.
It's the typical boring green tide with boyz, grots, characters, mek gunz and a shooty unit that is very CPs thirsty but it does ok against marines. At least for 2-3 turns which is what you need in a tournament.
I have been tabled playing a Pampreen FG/Tankabusta grot inspired list with 190 models. I NEVER lost more than 30/40 models per round. I honestly believe if you lose 75 models a turn, you either playing on planet bowling ball, either you are a bad player. Honestly. Use cover.
Also, playing ITC I learned one thing, I can completely wipe my opponent in 2/3 rounds, or I can get wrecked, a lot depend from my ability to play the mission. Than again. SM at the moment they do everything good and that sucks. Let's see what x-mas bring...
Blackie wrote: In my experience lootas aren't great against marines. Their AP-1 means that the humies will save a lot of hits (half or even more) while the green dudes still die pretty easily even with Grot Shields. Flash Gitz are more efficient but also more expensive and they need to be positioned in a perfect spot due to their worse range. Those pirates are also decent against marines but not so much against many other armies while lootas are tipycally more TAC oriented.
The -1 isn't that bad as many targets have inv save anyway so it wouldn't matter much. And being cheaper than flash gits they cause more casualties by sheer numbers anyway. Plus longer range. No -1 to hit first time to move, more quaranteed for range(my necrons struggle in T1 to cause much casualties with M5 and 24" range...Good thing I play nephrek so I can auto advance 6" with my tesla immortals). And due to short range harder to keep alive.
I'm not a fan of shielding units with gretchins since many armies can throw them too many shots that the unit you want to save suffers a significan amount of casualties, crippling the unit. Deepstriking bustas costs +1CP than shielding lootas but it's a guaranteed massacre as they'll shoot at full strenght no matter what. The only drawback is to make them arrive within range of the most juicy target but even if the opponent is smart enough to make impossible for the bustas to aim at it they will still have valuable targets to get their points back.
Who fires lootas directly then? You shoot them once to pull up stratagem, then you blow the T2 grots directly. More efficient than gunning down T4 targets.
One issue with that is that you come on T2. If you get first opponent has basically shot 2/3 of the turns that really count.
I actually think Lootas would be fine against more units than suggested *if* we could keep them alive more than 1 turn. Because we can’t they are lacklustre.
It’s hard to field more than 1 unit of any of our shooty infantry. It’s why I hope our wagons get way cheaper so we can field them as proper gun platforms.
I agree about Grot shields. I think it’s a bit of a red herring; the tellyporta combo is way more useful and consistent.
Has anyone who has lost a billion grots done so when they’ve been under a KFF + painboy on turn 1?
It’s probably better to hide Lootas and da jump / move them into LOS then hope your shields hold up. Or use them similar to tankbustas and just more Dakka them on landing. Grots are probably best against indirect fire, since it’s unlikely they’ll be able to field enough to both trigger and wipe the grots out. But at that point, maybe you should just tellyporta.
Dont thunderfirecannons fire indirect anyway? So hiding the lootas will technically help as non-thunderfires cant hit them but the thunderfires are the main threat anyway?
Vineheart01 wrote: Dont thunderfirecannons fire indirect anyway? So hiding the lootas will technically help as non-thunderfires cant hit them but the thunderfires are the main threat anyway?
Yeah... I dunno how you deal with suppression fire and tremor shells for a model that can hide almost anywhere and be in range. It can also tag multiple units with shaken. Woof. Basically a massive middle finger to slogging infantry.
Vineheart01 wrote: Dont thunderfirecannons fire indirect anyway? So hiding the lootas will technically help as non-thunderfires cant hit them but the thunderfires are the main threat anyway?
They can usually just shell the gretchin, it's hard to hide both the lootas and the gretchin.
One thing i miss about older editions was indirect fire had inherit penalties.
Previously they didnt apply their BS when scattering, and afaik all indirects were a blast, or the Tau Smart Missiles which werent very popular due to not being able to splitfire (always waste a gun shooting or waste shots against a target SMS doesnt wanna hit). That wouldnt work in the current edition, so a -1 to hit would make sense.
Right now theres no penalties for hiding in a corner so nobody can do anything about you and firing these crazy weapons. The indirect snipers especially are capital BS for this. And the only indirect orks have is a lobba which LOL yeah no im not touching that.
The indirect profiles are usually weaker than the direct profiles though. For example, Eliminators lose one AP, deal 1 instead of d3 damage and no longer cause mortal wounds when firing indirectly. They ignore cover and get +2 to hit though...
They still hit hard. And of course Ork characters fold in seconds to snipers so we almost HAD to be out of sight to exist or be smothered in grotshields (which denied lootas/gitz grotshields). Cant even do that now.
I dont like indirect fire being a primary weapon. It should be poke damage, not unit-wiping potential. Im not even a fan of my admech's tank getting those indirect S6 Ap1 2D shots, its just ridiculously good.
Have we come up with any viable tactics in the new meta yet? I think Blackie had it on the previous page - we need to go back to the old, classic green tide. I can't see anyway we can hope to realistically kill what we need to from the Marine army so I think our only hope is to flood the board with as many bodied as possible and try to win on objectives. It's boring, it might not work but I can't see another way. Anyone else with any ideas? Lootas don't seem to be the answer, Flash Gits are too niche and Tank Bustas only operate against vehicles, really.
What else we got? Smashas, Grots, Boys and warbosses?
Might be best to see what CA gives us, since it's only about a month out, rather than working on some solutions that will be outdated by 2020. But, yeah. Our best bet, right now, is to force Marines to kill things that are so cheap and numerous that they can't stop us from winning via VP.
Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote: 2 weeks guys. December should be a decent month for us as CA and our PA books come along.
Otherwise, and after digesting them, rage again.
I’m with you on this less raging and more wait and see...
I expect chapter approved to fix some issues even if not a lot of changes directly for orks. (Hoping buggy points changes)
I expect some new ork stuff in PA and I hope we get a new character model!!!! With all the legacy stuff going away almost any character model would help!
Orks havent kept up but should get slight boost regardless.
It is entirely possible that only Smasha Guns and Grots are touched (both go up in points) and we get the Xmas gift of the Red Gobbo taking the majority of our competitive HQs to Legends status.
It could, it is very likely, be bloody awful for us. I'm scared.
At the very least, I'd be shocked if GW didn't give the Stompa a drastic decrease in price. Even their Stompa Mob gimmick wasn't enough to make it playable. I'd also expect to see a point drop to the Workshop (even if nothing short of a total rework would make it viable).
So while, yes, it's possible we won't see anything but nerds, I seriously doubt GW will ignore how a fair number of our units just aren't selling and do nothing to change that.
theres a rumor leak of ca19 that says marines got even cheaper in it. I call BS on that one. Recent releases dont get touched by CA. But if that seriously did happen i'd probably shelf my armies for awhile.
Spoiler:
I hold very little faith in this, but the admech thread is kinda flipping out since apparently theres a bit in the Inquisitor book that points to this being true.
I seriously doubt it's true. They probably included just enough plausible information to make it seem valid, but there's no reason to believe that it's anything but a troll.
The whole red gobbo thing bugs me more because hes directly Legacy than anything else. Had he not been i probably wouldnt want him anyway but seriously why is a new release legacy only? nobody else has that happen to them. Black Citadel is a cesspool of new characters, all legal in normal 40k. For other armies and even unaligned Orks are usually ignored. This isnt being ignored this is just gradually taking gak away and giving nothing new.
To be fair, I was already prepared for this when those options didn't make it into the Codex. I might be a newish player, but I can still recognize the signs of when a company is looking to phase something out.
I'm currently pondering an entirely non-competitive fun list to bring to a casual game, soon as I'm done building it :
Spoiler:
Vanguard Detachment
Kff mek (index)
Mek
Mek
Mek
Superheavy detachment:
Stompa
Superheavy detachment
Stompa
2002 points for 2 stompas and 4Cp to spend. Meks will walk between stompas to ensure they're not the closest model and then jump in one if the other dies. Figure if I can clear enough anti-tank turn 1 they might have a chance, and with 2 things to deploy, going first is almost a given
My other thought is a trio of kill burstas with a unit in each, again for near guaranteeing turn one - you can even tellyport one!
flandarz wrote: Might be best to see what CA gives us, since it's only about a month out, rather than working on some solutions that will be outdated by 2020. But, yeah. Our best bet, right now, is to force Marines to kill things that are so cheap and numerous that they can't stop us from winning via VP.
Yes there is absolutely no point in struggling atm. We have had it good for the longest time I can remember (since biker nobz 4th ed bonanza when you could allocate wounds taken as you wanted), time to wait for new stuff.
Does anyone here seriously want to get 15 smashas which are almost certain to go up 30% in points in one month ? Or go to a tournament play x games in a day with 300 grots ? Just forgo tournaments for now, play against non marine players, and things will be fine hah hah
I personally am waiting / hoping for Gorks and morks to lose 15-20% of their cost.
I've been trying to figure out how to respond to the new meta but in line with a lot of other comments, CA19 is rumored to come out early December so I haven't committed to any new ideas. I find myself half building lists in battle scribe with a couple of ideas in them but never finishing the list because the list will most likely be moot within the month.
Here are some of my thoughts:
I've strayed away from lootas a fair bit. They've always felt gatekeeping to me and most competent players I've played against can deal with them. With marines being more common place their AP isn't as relevant as I'd like. Salamanders straight up ignore it, a marine in cover effectively ignores it, and as pointed out by others Iron Hands have a 6+++ that can hinder it.
I've been moving towards Tankbustas and Flash gitz.
Tankbustas are nice and effective but 1 dimensional. Fortunately vehicles and elites are common in my meta, so the tend to find a purpose.
Flash gitz I'm finding good but rough. They feel overcosted but I tend to get my ROI on them. I've recently been considering running them in a trukk, and da jumping gretchin in front of them, to try and protect them. I haven't had a chance to try it out yet. The basic idea is trukk scoots in, gets them in range. Gretchin in range for grot shields for inevitable trukk death. This would lean on the Freeboota trait and would mean my remaining 2 heavy support slots would be filled with mek gunz.
I've also been wanting to run a deathskulls brigade, with kommandos filling the elite slots and deff koptas filling the fast attack slots. This can clash with the previous idea as mek gunz are the best choice for satisfiyng the heavy support slots. I could slap in KMB deff dreads into that brigade to run both detachments together but I'm not sold on the value of deff dreads. The primary motivator for running this brigade is I'll be playing a tourney that runs maelstrom missions, my view is that kommandos and deff koptas will provide me with effective tools for responding to the RNG of drawing objectives from a deck.
some bloke wrote: I'm currently pondering an entirely non-competitive fun list to bring to a casual game, soon as I'm done building it :
Spoiler:
Vanguard Detachment
Kff mek (index)
Mek
Mek
Mek
Superheavy detachment:
Stompa
Superheavy detachment
Stompa
2002 points for 2 stompas and 4Cp to spend. Meks will walk between stompas to ensure they're not the closest model and then jump in one if the other dies. Figure if I can clear enough anti-tank turn 1 they might have a chance, and with 2 things to deploy, going first is almost a given
My other thought is a trio of kill burstas with a unit in each, again for near guaranteeing turn one - you can even tellyport one!
A+, I too am running a silly list in a casual game next week. It's:
Gargantuan Squiggoth [21 PL, 428pts]: 3x Big Shoota, 2x Big Zzappa, Huge Tusks, 2x Twin Big Shoota
Kill Tank [15 PL, 442pts]: Bursta Kannon, Grot Riggers, Reinforced Ram, Twin Big Shoota, 2x Twin Big Shoota
Kustom Stompa [52 PL, 1,130pts]: Belly Gun, 3x Big Shoota, Deffkannon and Supa-Gatler, Lifta-Droppa, Mork's One, Skorcha, Stompa Mob Character, 5x Supa-Rokkit, Tezdrek's Stompa Power Field, The Gaze of Mork, Twin Big Shoota, Warlord
++ Total: [88 PL, 5CP, 2,000pts] ++
I haven't settled on a klan yet. I know Bad Moonz will offer me a nice buff but I'm a huge fan of deathskulls and freebootas so leaning towards one of those instead. It is a fluff game after all.
Gargantuan Squiggoth [21 PL, 428pts]: 3x Big Shoota, 2x Big Zzappa, Huge Tusks, 2x Twin Big Shoota
Kill Tank [15 PL, 442pts]: Bursta Kannon, Grot Riggers, Reinforced Ram, Twin Big Shoota, 2x Twin Big Shoota
Kustom Stompa [52 PL, 1,130pts]: Belly Gun, 3x Big Shoota, Deffkannon and Supa-Gatler, Lifta-Droppa, Mork's One, Skorcha, Stompa Mob Character, 5x Supa-Rokkit, Tezdrek's Stompa Power Field, The Gaze of Mork, Twin Big Shoota, Warlord
++ Total: [88 PL, 5CP, 2,000pts] ++
I haven't settled on a klan yet. I know Bad Moonz will offer me a nice buff but I'm a huge fan of deathskulls and freebootas so leaning towards one of those instead. It is a fluff game after all.
looks like fun, but perhaps a waste for transport & howdah rules - sadly there's nothing to drop in there to make room for transported units!
For klan culture I might even consider snakebites for the 6+++, as there will be a lot of wounds there to lose and a lot of multi-damage weapons to tank. 6+++ is way better than 6++ for massive models, especially as it allows you to use your existing saves already (when you can). KFF and snakebites would be pretty survivable. rerolling 1 hit/wound/damage dice per unit is good for MSU but less good for big models with umpteen guns. making it through to another turn, even by just one wound, will be much more firepower increase than rerolling a dice. Plus, playing with 3 big models for longer is better!
I've another list which might even border on competitive:
Battlewagon, 'ard case, zzapp gun (why not), 3 big shootas (it's on the model). riggers
Battlewagon, rolla, riggers
battlewagon, rolla, riggers
kill bursta (bursta gun)
kill blasta (gigashoota)
going from memory but it's something like that. 5 tanks on the field, lots of dakka, and effective charging with mortal wounds and what have you.
Running it bloodaxe so that I can either sit back and have cover or disengage and still shoot/charge. Don't want to lose the effectiveness of my army to falling back!
The potential certainty of smashas going up is why i havnt bothered to kitbash any.
I want them, i have 1 traktor lol. But no idea how theyre changing that unit, and if they do it wrong they could royally screw mek gunz over in general. GW isnt exactly known for carefully nerfing things.
Vineheart01 wrote: The potential certainty of smashas going up is why i havnt bothered to kitbash any.
I want them, i have 1 traktor lol. But no idea how theyre changing that unit, and if they do it wrong they could royally screw mek gunz over in general. GW isnt exactly known for carefully nerfing things.
It depends on how much is the new cost of the unit. At the moment 31ppm is very undercosted but the much more efficient KMKs are 60 points and no one brings them to competitive games as they look overcosted. It would be shameful if Smashas becomes more expensive than 40 points and probably lists than field 12 would just have 9-10 instead which isn't a big deal. Even at 40ppm Smasha Gunz would be ok and good enough to justify 10ish of them in a list.
I think mek gunz should be re-worked completely into 60-90ppm models, keeping the current durability but gaining much more damage output. Nothing should cost less points than dollars/euro/pounds.
I know people are considering going back to greentide lists.
at 2k you can get 13 CP 2 battalions 240 boys: 8 mobs w/ 7xNob with BC. one plain Nob. 2 weird boys. and 2 SAGs. One could be upgraded to SSAG.
if you went this route would you upgrade to SSAG? the DS trait on 160 boys is a lot of 6++. But they wouldn't be moving as fast as ES. Your only real source of AT would be the SAGs even though you could have 3 TBB in each unit.
Keep 1 or 2 units in tellyporta?
I honestly would never want to play this even in a store casual setting. This would be the, I set up a table at my place and we took breaks every 2 turns kind of game.
Theyre just D6 Kustom Mega shots at 36" range. It offers nothing compared to the other two considering you cant put badmoonz rerolls on it to prevent 1s hurting you too, yet its twice the cost?
I'll use the traktor over the KMK any day. Yea, 1 shot vs d6, but it autohits and if it pops a flying vehicle BOOM!
KMK shouldnt be 45pts when the base weapon with that profile is 9pts. More like 30-35pts.
mhalko1 wrote: I know people are considering going back to greentide lists.
at 2k you can get 13 CP 2 battalions 240 boys: 8 mobs w/ 7xNob with BC. one plain Nob. 2 weird boys. and 2 SAGs. One could be upgraded to SSAG.
if you went this route would you upgrade to SSAG? the DS trait on 160 boys is a lot of 6++. But they wouldn't be moving as fast as ES. Your only real source of AT would be the SAGs even though you could have 3 TBB in each unit.
Keep 1 or 2 units in tellyporta?
I honestly would never want to play this even in a store casual setting. This would be the, I set up a table at my place and we took breaks every 2 turns kind of game.
I think you're going the wrong unit with green tide here.
Current Ork lists are *fine* against most of the non-marine meta. So what we're trying to do is adjust to marines specifically.
Boyz are bad against marines. Between Auspex scan punishing deep strike (tellyporta / Da Jump), infiltrators zoning you out (creating effectively a bubble of non-charge zones, as you have to deploy out of 12"), thunderfire cannons screwing your movement, advancing, and charges, and the general killiness of the army, you're spamming a unit marines loves to deal with. 240 boyz would take them a while, but you also basically have nothing on your backline.
SSAG is always worth it. It's basically 2 SAGs in one, and with shoot twice, 4 SAGs in one, for 80 or 84 points and 1 CP. Yes please. If you were going to cut units out, it would be normal SAGs, not the SSAG.
Now, if you instead did 300 grots plus 3 SAGs, you've got 860 points left to flesh out the rest of the army. I think that's *a lot* more powerful. You could get an entire battery of Mek Gunz to go along with this and then some. Boyz are not going to do much work against marines. Grots die in droves, but they are so cheap and so good at grabbing / holding objectives, that it doesn't matter.
Theyre just D6 Kustom Mega shots at 36" range. It offers nothing compared to the other two considering you cant put badmoonz rerolls on it to prevent 1s hurting you too, yet its twice the cost?
I'll use the traktor over the KMK any day. Yea, 1 shot vs d6, but it autohits and if it pops a flying vehicle BOOM!
KMK shouldnt be 45pts when the base weapon with that profile is 9pts. More like 30-35pts.
Biggest problem of KMK I find is the 36" range. Somehow any other Mekgun can reach 48". Mek guns model screams long range suport. 36" in a static model is not good enough.
That combined with lack of kultures affecting it is the main reason it shouldnt be that high.
Technically in a vacuum its right. 45pts is 5x KMBs, but 12" more range. Factor in the random shots, its only a couple points overpriced.
But the only thing that uses it has less rules than the things that use KMBs and is a static gun instead of a mobile fortress. Even the Mork's KMZ i wouldnt be a fan of if he had heavy penalities, and that thing averages 7 shots for me.
Not to mention you need 5 boys (20+ strong mob) to just kill one single primaris marine, without banner. 20 attacks, 13 hits, 6 or 7 wounds, 2 wounds on average go through. So you’re not killing much with what will survive the poster boys’ shooting phase. It gets far worse vs aggressors and other gravis dudes
mhalko1 wrote: I know people are considering going back to greentide lists.
at 2k you can get 13 CP 2 battalions 240 boys: 8 mobs w/ 7xNob with BC. one plain Nob. 2 weird boys. and 2 SAGs. One could be upgraded to SSAG.
if you went this route would you upgrade to SSAG? the DS trait on 160 boys is a lot of 6++. But they wouldn't be moving as fast as ES. Your only real source of AT would be the SAGs even though you could have 3 TBB in each unit.
Keep 1 or 2 units in tellyporta?
I honestly would never want to play this even in a store casual setting. This would be the, I set up a table at my place and we took breaks every 2 turns kind of game.
I think you're going the wrong unit with green tide here.
Current Ork lists are *fine* against most of the non-marine meta. So what we're trying to do is adjust to marines specifically.
Boyz are bad against marines. Between Auspex scan punishing deep strike (tellyporta / Da Jump), infiltrators zoning you out (creating effectively a bubble of non-charge zones, as you have to deploy out of 12"), thunderfire cannons screwing your movement, advancing, and charges, and the general killiness of the army, you're spamming a unit marines loves to deal with. 240 boyz would take them a while, but you also basically have nothing on your backline.
SSAG is always worth it. It's basically 2 SAGs in one, and with shoot twice, 4 SAGs in one, for 80 or 84 points and 1 CP. Yes please. If you were going to cut units out, it would be normal SAGs, not the SSAG.
Now, if you instead did 300 grots plus 3 SAGs, you've got 860 points left to flesh out the rest of the army. I think that's *a lot* more powerful. You could get an entire battery of Mek Gunz to go along with this and then some. Boyz are not going to do much work against marines. Grots die in droves, but they are so cheap and so good at grabbing / holding objectives, that it doesn't matter.
I own about 30 grots enough to min a battalion for CP. Let's not get anything confused for new players reading the thread. yes grots are green. but they are not a greentide. We shouldn't mix that up in case of confusion. I see myself already getting terms mixed up. Greentide is boys and spamming them en masse. now if we are running large groups of grots to be effective against marines thats fine but I was asking if 240 boys which I do own would be able to effectively dent marines. and how it would affect the army if they aren't running primaris and just standard tac marines. My local players have primaris specialty units but generally run tac squads as their troops.
Vineheart01 wrote: imagine the power creep if they gave choppas +1 AP, even if it was only on the charge.
Be about as bad as giving marines +1AP and +1 Attack.
Imagines if Goffs got that, they might become a viable culture, instead of their rather meh exploding 6s. We got plenty of attacks, they just don't punch through.
addnid wrote:
Not to mention you need 5 boys (20+ strong mob) to just kill one single primaris marine, without banner. 20 attacks, 13 hits, 6 or 7 wounds, 2 wounds on average go through. So you’re not killing much with what will survive the poster boys’ shooting phase. It gets far worse vs aggressors and other gravis dudes
Spot on. I genuinely believe this is what will start showing up once people catch on -- Grots vs marines are less than half the cost and might be more surviveable as a boy PER POINT to their shooting. I'm not even sure a 4 PPM grot bump affects this calculus.
I think we're going to enter a world where the key to winning competitive games will be spending 10-12 CP on shoot twice on the SSAG and having it carry the game, along with our obsec grots.
If that is a world we are entering for solo tournaments then I am glad I have other armies to use until that world goes away, and leave another world open (one where boyz are good again).
I got a lot of loyalty to Da Boyz, so I'll be playing Orkz through thick and thin. They could be down to a 10% Win rate and I'd still be rolling in the green skins. Maybe literally, if I can find some cheap armies on Ebay if that happens.
addnid wrote: If that is a world we are entering for solo tournaments then I am glad I have other armies to use until that world goes away, and leave another world open (one where boyz are good again).
It's not as dire as you might believe. I think CA and Psychic Awakenings will provide us options, so we will likely have some shake ups in the next 3-6 weeks. This is just as stuff currently sits.
I also find the idea of flipping the bird to Marines really satisfying. Oh, you kill all much gak easily? enjoy eating SAGs while killing the cheapest unit in the game, that even a Guardsman can smack around. Good use of your 55+ point model.
Boyz are also fine in other matchups -- if you can accept they are weaker in that particular fight, it's more about playing and getting as much value out of your boyz as possible. This may mean Shoota boyz only, playing more defensively, adding a Painboy for the 6+++, etc. You may end up not even fighting many marines, even if they are 25% of the meta, in a given 5 game tournament.
The Legends update may also not be as bad people think.
1) MA Big Mek is not *that* much worse to the index Big Mek in stats -- 1" movement slower sucks, but a bad advance roll may have hindered you anyway in keeping up. The key will be if they recognize it's INCREDIBLY overcosted. If it comes down to 90-95 points with a PK, Kustom Shoota, KFF, it'll be fine. It even is a bit more sniper resistant with the 2+ save.
2) Because FW makes a biker Boss, we might keep ours. *really* hoping. I know it's a character, but they market it on the FW site as a Warboss on Bike, not as Da Rippa (Plus it's a SICK model).
3) MA Warboss and Biker Mek weren't really used in competitive lists much anyway.
4) A lot of index options (Shoota Nobz, Deff kopta w/ KMB, Big Mek w/ KMB) weren't really showing up competitively anyway. Although I think for more casual / semi-competitive lists, this sucks butt.
If grots really go to 4 points as the rumours have it then it will be boyz before toyz regardless of the meta. We would probably keep like one grot battalion (3*10)but I guess that would be it.
Theyre just D6 Kustom Mega shots at 36" range. It offers nothing compared to the other two considering you cant put badmoonz rerolls on it to prevent 1s hurting you too, yet its twice the cost?
I'll use the traktor over the KMK any day. Yea, 1 shot vs d6, but it autohits and if it pops a flying vehicle BOOM!
KMK shouldnt be 45pts when the base weapon with that profile is 9pts. More like 30-35pts.
True, but that's mostly about killyness since 60 pts for 6W T5 5+ models which act as separate units once deployed sounds right, if not even undercosted (and in fact Smasha Gunz are undercosted).
I'd take 100pts KMKs any time if they had 3D6 shots, and maybe also the kultur bonus. 30ish ppm artillery models were ok in the previous editions when they had 1-2 W and less firepower. Mek gunz will just get some new price in CA (up or down, it depends on the gun type) but I really hope that in the future they'll be reworked to match the current state of 40k which isn't the same of 3rd-7th editions when single anti tank shots could wreck something valuable.
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addnid wrote: If grots really go to 4 points as the rumours have it then it will be boyz before toyz regardless of the meta. We would probably keep like one grot battalion (3*10)but I guess that would be it.
60 gretchins at 4ppm would be +60 points than the current lists, not a huge deal actually. Grots are too important to get CPs and even at 4ppm they'd be a way more efficient way to field multiple battallions than boyz. Supposing that also Smasha Gunz go up in points 4ppm gretchins and more expensive smashas just means that green tides with 12+ mek gunz would be exactly the same with a few less artillery models. Unless other toyz become competitive with a significant price reduction.
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Vineheart01 wrote: imagine the power creep if they gave choppas +1 AP, even if it was only on the charge.
Be about as bad as giving marines +1AP and +1 Attack.
In 3rd edition basic choppas limited the target's armour save to 4+ which means AP-1 on MEQ and even AP-2 on TEQ. With the current state of 40k choppas with AP-1 (on the charge, by strategem, or exploding 6s) wouldn't even be power creep.
Since I can't stand re-rolls and adding more shots, as they slow down the game, I've always wanted modifiers instead of those, like +1 to hit, or to wound or -1 AP.
addnid wrote: If grots really go to 4 points as the rumours have it then it will be boyz before toyz regardless of the meta. We would probably keep like one grot battalion (3*10)but I guess that would be it.
The grot rumor (and pretty much all other CA rumors) have been confirmed to be false by a reliable source.
addnid wrote: If grots really go to 4 points as the rumours have it then it will be boyz before toyz regardless of the meta. We would probably keep like one grot battalion (3*10)but I guess that would be it.
The grot rumor (and pretty much all other CA rumors) have been confirmed to be false by a reliable source.
addnid wrote: If grots really go to 4 points as the rumours have it then it will be boyz before toyz regardless of the meta. We would probably keep like one grot battalion (3*10)but I guess that would be it.
The grot rumor (and pretty much all other CA rumors) have been confirmed to be false by a reliable source.
That is very good news as there was absolutely nothing I liked there. Let’s keep our fingers crossed then. There is hope for our vehicules still.
Yeah. Unfortunately, our vehicles aren't durable enough to survive pretty much anything, but also aren't cheap enough to effectively spam. Though, to be fair, this applies to a lot of our infantry too. If we don't see any point drops in CA, and if our "go-to" units get a price hike, we might not HAVE a competitive build anymore.
Sometimes I wonder what the point is when trying to get into 40k when the army becomes obsolete before you get it painted. Well I suppose my boyz look nice enough for display.
Well, I put out a "worst case scenario" statement there, so I wouldn't take it as gospel. The likeliest scenario is that our vehicles will get a lot of point drops, which will shift our meta in a good way.
tulun wrote: I actually think Lootas would be fine against more units than suggested *if* we could keep them alive more than 1 turn. Because we can’t they are lacklustre.
It’s hard to field more than 1 unit of any of our shooty infantry. It’s why I hope our wagons get way cheaper so we can field them as proper gun platforms.
I agree about Grot shields. I think it’s a bit of a red herring; the tellyporta combo is way more useful and consistent.
Has anyone who has lost a billion grots done so when they’ve been under a KFF + painboy on turn 1?
It’s probably better to hide Lootas and da jump / move them into LOS then hope your shields hold up. Or use them similar to tankbustas and just more Dakka them on landing. Grots are probably best against indirect fire, since it’s unlikely they’ll be able to field enough to both trigger and wipe the grots out. But at that point, maybe you should just tellyporta.
Well, I use grotz mostly for grot shields and CP generation, so the only time my opponent kills grots (for the most part) is when he is shooting my Lootas. When grot shields is used you don't get KFF but you do get FNP but its a 6+ so....not really doing much. I played against an IG tournament list where my opponent ate through 50 grotz and most of my lootas turn 1. Same tournament I had an eldar opponent kill 40 grotz in the shooting phase. I mean, they just aren't hard to kill.
On the related note of 4pts per grot. If they go to 4pts per grot then I would demand (inconsequentially mind you) that GW gives them Imperial Guardsmen stats and weapons. Even GW in their own ineptness must realize that we only take grots for CP generation not because they are useful.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Have we come up with any viable tactics in the new meta yet? I think Blackie had it on the previous page - we need to go back to the old, classic green tide. I can't see anyway we can hope to realistically kill what we need to from the Marine army so I think our only hope is to flood the board with as many bodied as possible and try to win on objectives. It's boring, it might not work but I can't see another way. Anyone else with any ideas? Lootas don't seem to be the answer, Flash Gits are too niche and Tank Bustas only operate against vehicles, really.
What else we got? Smashas, Grots, Boys and warbosses?
I play a decent tournament meta and I decided to throw a monkey wrench into the works by bringing an Ork mech list as a surprise list. I had 3 Bonebreakers in reserve and a Morkanaut that was on the table but hidden behind cover as well as a TON of Mek Gunz. Turn 2 I had 3 Bonebreakers show up along with 30 Boyz and Da Jumped 30 more into my opponents lines where my Mek gunz and Morkanaut had blasted holes in his screen. I did this not once, not twice but 3 times in that tournament and went a respectable ( in my opinion) 3 wins out of 4. The 4th game was against the tournament winner who managed to kill my Morkanaut and most of my Mek gunz by turn 2 and when my BBs showed up he used that intercept strat to blast one of them apart. Overall, a lot of fun and a lot of surprise, but against the new hot SM lists it just doesn't work.
Vineheart01 wrote: The whole red gobbo thing bugs me more because hes directly Legacy than anything else. Had he not been i probably wouldnt want him anyway but seriously why is a new release legacy only? nobody else has that happen to them.
Black Citadel is a cesspool of new characters, all legal in normal 40k. For other armies and even unaligned
Orks are usually ignored. This isnt being ignored this is just gradually taking gak away and giving nothing new.
There is also the Dwarf wearing Power armor with the same nonsensical rules and what not. Basically they are limited edition releases that are more for the hobbyist then the actual game player. I was literally about to go buy one from my local store when I noticed the price. Sorry GW, I will not be dropping $35 for a single grot model.
So, took an ork horde list to a 2K ITC tourney yesterday.
90 goff scarboys, cheapo warboss and weirdboy made one detachment while 40 shootaboys, the good old supa shokka mek, grots and a full sized tankbusta mob made up 2 more detachments with 20 goff kommandos and some KFF meks made up the rest. Overall it went pretty well.
First game was against a walker Alpha Legion list. 2 conteptors with the C beam weapons can put out a rather good amount of damage to a horde. disco lord, maulerfiend, lascannon havocs, 3 oblits and a butcher cannon armed dread made up the rest of his killing power with some nurglings and cultists bulking things up. Though the Nurgle herald with the -1 toughness spell was a bit of a pain. Managed to win that game, outflanking with green tide and Da-jump. The boys took a few hits but pushed forward and took objectives rather well. Tankbustas managed to one shot the mauler then the disco while the big mek rolled a little above average and took out the dreads pretty quick. Managed to pull a win by about 3 or 4 points.
Second game was against a 3 tank commanders, smashcaptain and libby dread with 3 units of deathwatch/master in deep strike. Started off well for me, not taking much damage but killing plenty first turn. Theeeeen the deathwatch came down and wiped out 80 or so boys. Those fethers are way too good. xP Can't even make a dent in them in return. Outside of fishing for mortal wounds with the shokka or maybe dropping bombers on them I really can't think of much in our book that can take em out easily. By the end he didn't have much at all, just those 3 units of bastards. Lost by quite a bit.
Third game was against chaos knights. Tankbustas took one knight to 3 wounds, shreaded 2 wardogs but his warlord had the luck of chaos and refused to take much damage. Either way between the kommandos infiltrating, boys jumping and new mobs respawning I managed to control field. And every time those boys hit a knight they tore good sized holes in the bastards, wounding them on 5s feels good with the amount of attacks you can put out. Mek did nothing all game except last turn where he half healths a knight even with below average roles. Won that game by a good margin, just lobbing grot mobs onto objectives with the jump later turns like bob ross painting the field with splatters of green.
Overall, playing horde orks feels like it has potential. Though some match ups hurt soooo bad. I still prefer tankbustas to lootas. The bump in AP, S and D really helps against most targets. The kommandos were mostly just to throw more bodies on the field, support the turn 2 push or hug objectives. Everything else felt like they performed as well as I could ask. Not a single 11+ str on the shokka though sadly. Laaaaame.
Just won a one day 22 man ITC tournament this weekend with a triple battalion with SSAG DS, warboss and Badrukk freebooterz backed by 9 smashaguns and 10 Flashgitz, bad moon double weirdboy, 30 shoota and 15 tankabusta with 5 bombs in a Battlewagon. 115 grots helped to give board control.
Game 1 vs Tau
Very aggressive and meticolous player, Dawn of War deployment.
Doubel riptide, 2 commander, 3 crisis, 24 shield drone, minimal fire warriors and marker light caracther .
He got first turn and blowed 45 grots, battlewagon and a couple of smashaguns.
I shot EVERYTHING at the drones and crisis suit and managed to take away the drones. Jumped and tackled some fire warriors.
Than he sniped my SSAG with a commander, more gunz and the tankabusta. I took the crisis and left a riptide on 3 W.
He took midfield and shot some other gunz. Got clocked out.
I won by taking points everywhere 26-23
Second match vs RG Holy gak. Hammer and anvil deployment , I gave him first turn thinking I screenwd enough, leaving the wagon in ruins outside the grots line. I was wrong. He had like 30 intercessor, 6 caracthers 3 aesuots and some scouts. came in my lines with the warlord trait and almost wiped the wagon trapping the tankabusta. I lost like 8 models between explosion and no space to deploy. I retaliated by wiping the first line of asssault.
T2 did the same thing, managed to wipe the tankabusta the warboss and wrapping the Flashgitz. He killed like 5 smashaguns
I retaliated by almost taking the whole second line down and the SSAG went bananas killing 10 primaris D2 dude (infiltrator?) And a warsuit. The SSAG dude started a trend that will end up winning me the tournament.
Last turn were a mop up of points. 35-21
Last match vs Drukhari
Spearhead deployment, he had a whole black heart deal of stuff. 3 bomber planes, 4 boats, 5 venoms, a bunch of witched and 12 bikes.
This game was insane. He vected me 3 times in 2 rounds. A grot shield (killed all the Flashgitz t1). A more dakka vs 15 tankabusta in extra granade range and a double shooting with my SSAG.
By the end of T2 i lost 4 gunz, all the gitz, the tankabusta and some 50 grots and he lost 2 and half planes.
Than the SSAG went hail Mary and blasted 2 bug things a turn with the help of the smashaguns.
I spent 4 turn in my deployment, jumping one grot unit at the time for recon.
He assaulted me with everything he had and wasn't enough.
37-25 and won the tournament vs 2nd place for 3(!!!) Points.
All in all, choosing the right secondary is an absolute must. Play the mission and be careful. I jumped my orks t1 once and was basically a missplay. Next time I'll bring 3 SAG and park the boyz alone somewhere to keep for t3-4. Same tankabusta, I'll DS them only vs out of LoS shooting, otherwise park em and let them come at you.
The new Marines are SO broken man....
Let's hope to get some nice point drops and some more tools to deal with them in PA3 and CA. I really wanna use less than 120 models .....
Vineheart01 wrote: The whole red gobbo thing bugs me more because hes directly Legacy than anything else. Had he not been i probably wouldnt want him anyway but seriously why is a new release legacy only? nobody else has that happen to them.
Black Citadel is a cesspool of new characters, all legal in normal 40k. For other armies and even unaligned
Orks are usually ignored. This isnt being ignored this is just gradually taking gak away and giving nothing new.
It's straight to legacy only because he's limited time sale for like about 1 month. Okay technically guess he could have been non-legend model until christmast but then if they didn't announce he's going to be legend after christmas they would take flak for THAT and if they announce...what's really the difference to now?
Come christmas no more model on sale. And that's legend model. That's where old rules without current models on sale goes after all.
The moment they said he's only limited time sales it was obvious he would be legend rules.
(sucks yes but alas predictable. Problem was GW making it limited time model. Ah well luckily rather poor rules so not that bad)
Yesterday my speed freeks managed a clear win against the Ultramarines (15:6 VP maelstrom) despite me doing a ton of playing errors.
SJD and the two KBB did very well, scrap jet was outplayed by my opponent. Wartrike was bad.
The Morkanaut did ok, the bonebreakers much less so, but mostly due to my fault.
Warbikers probably won me the game with their first turn assault, though their cost plus 4CP to do so is hard to justify when you compare them to da jumping boyz or storm boyz.
Basically I pinned the ultramarines in their deployment zone for the entire game, while Calgar and an unkillable Leviathan ground through my entire army. My gretchin scored objectives all over the board and won the game.
I took some pictures, so I can do a thorough battle report if anyone wants that.
Not really. Come legacy, all they have access to is 4x Bigshootas (they lost Rokkits), 1 Lobba (why would you wan this in 8th is beyond me, its a worse bigshoota), and 1 Kannon, Killkannon, or Zzap Gun.
Kannon technically is pretty potent with Deathskulls since its basically KMB, 36" over 24 but loses an AP. Other two are sorta meh/bad.
If you want a shooty wagon your best option is forgeworld SupaKannon (60" 2D6 shots S8 Ap2 3D). Its still not great, but it atleast CAN do damage and has the range to avoid close-ranged anti tank stuff. Unfortunately its like ~210pts since it didnt get the battlewagon 40pt drop in the codex...for some reason... Supakannon i mostly field because BIG GUNZ ARE KEWL but in all seriousness the only time it actually pays off is when i face fliers. Why? MoarDakka. That 3D being the only reason i bother. Still not the best, that'd be lootas or tankbustas, but its a T8 4+ platform instead of T4 tshirts which at that distance is a lot harder to remove so odds are its still alive T2-3 (personally unless my opponent deepsrikes right next to it, which is nowhere near the rest of my army, it usually doesnt die at all)
All in all, choosing the right secondary is an absolute must. Play the mission and be careful. I jumped my orks t1 once and was basically a missplay. Next time I'll bring 3 SAG and park the boyz alone somewhere to keep for t3-4. Same tankabusta, I'll DS them only vs out of LoS shooting, otherwise park em and let them come at you.
The new Marines are SO broken man....
Let's hope to get some nice point drops and some more tools to deal with them in PA3 and CA. I really wanna use less than 120 models .....
SAGs are the best. They carry our army.
Sounds like his list wasn’t even nearly optimized either. Infiltrators would have shut your DS down. And thunderfire cannons punish you for hiding.
No eliminataors either? Cause your SAGs would have been screwed then.
The army wasn't optimized for sure. At the same time, I met the same dude 6 months ago but he was playing BA. I won 41-4. A tad different results you might say
Emicrania wrote: Just won a one day 22 man ITC tournament this weekend with a triple battalion with SSAG DS, warboss and Badrukk freebooterz backed by 9 smashaguns and 10 Flashgitz, bad moon double weirdboy, 30 shoota and 15 tankabusta with 5 bombs in a Battlewagon. 115 grots helped to give board control.
ment vs 2nd place for 3(!!!) Points.
The new Marines are SO broken man....
Let's hope to get some nice point drops and some more tools to deal with them in PA3 and CA. I really wanna use less than 120 models .....
Yep, it sure is getting really old placing those 60 grots and 90 boyz (the minimum I always use these days), everygoddamn game, On the table, then quickly pack because they die in droves... even with movement trays. Also it locks you in because so little points lefts.
The big shoota would not be worth its points even if you put it on a gretchin and despite being an awesome gun, the killkannon alone does not justify the costs of the gunwagon, especially since you can't shoot out of it. If the gunwagon got a massive point drop, I could see it doing quite well though, 2D6 S8 AP-2 D2 shots is nothing orks can get easily.
The big shoota would not be worth its points even if you put it on a gretchin and despite being an awesome gun, the killkannon alone does not justify the costs of the gunwagon, especially since you can't shoot out of it. If the gunwagon got a massive point drop, I could see it doing quite well though, 2D6 S8 AP-2 D2 shots is nothing orks can get easily.
Jiddah I am curious how many points for the Gunwagon if you were a GW rule designer ? 110 all included ? Deathskulls would probably be the best
Personally i think the gunwagon just has the wrong type of guns to justify its performance, cost not really a factor.
Killkannons have 24 range so its gonna get shot by anti-vehicle crap and not much you can do about it, kannons are more of a "i have 15pts lying around and a wagon already" weapon, not worth doublefiring it. Zzaps are just flatout bad.
Vineheart01 wrote: Personally i think the gunwagon just has the wrong type of guns to justify its performance, cost not really a factor.
Killkannons have 24 range so its gonna get shot by anti-vehicle crap and not much you can do about it, kannons are more of a "i have 15pts lying around and a wagon already" weapon, not worth doublefiring it. Zzaps are just flatout bad.
Yeah I agree, new unit no one needed, bad design, 0 effort from GW, might as well not bother about it.
addnid wrote: Jiddah I am curious how many points for the Gunwagon if you were a GW rule designer ? 110 all included ? Deathskulls would probably be the best
80+15 I guess? It's a durable, but slow platform with a 24" gun and a borderline useless transport capacity. Heck, helverines might be 155 after CA, so I'm not sure how to price a model that's not moving 14" a turn with two battletank main cannons for arms.
So with four shootas it's 110, but as I said, it's never worth getting those. On Sunday I had tons of them on the buggies and the naut, I think they did a single wound to an intercessor over the course of four turns. If I could drop them from the scrapjet and naut, I would.
Not to mention no ork would call a single big gun on a wagon a "gunwagon"
If it were true to how an ork would call it such, that thing would probably have 2-3 Killkannons or Mek Gunz or just a gakton of Rokkits aka "Rack o' Rokkitz" being a single gun that just fires multiple rokkits, perhaps at slightly better range.
It wouldnt have transport capacity because it would have too many guns on it. Not that the transport capacity means anything anyway, really all its useful for is swiping your warlord SAG away if hes in danger (done that with the SupaKannon wagon, was hilarious to see Slay the Warlord slip from my opponent's grasp) or holding a squad of Grots that come out to be a speedbump.
T8, no transport, maybe moves 8" instead of 12 to signify how overloaded it is, and houses 3 of those listed guns for about ~180-200pts, if it moves less than 4" (half its speed) it can fire one of them twice (allows for variation depending on the situation). I'd use it lol.
Vineheart01 wrote: Personally i think the gunwagon just has the wrong type of guns to justify its performance, cost not really a factor.
Killkannons have 24 range so its gonna get shot by anti-vehicle crap and not much you can do about it, kannons are more of a "i have 15pts lying around and a wagon already" weapon, not worth doublefiring it. Zzaps are just flatout bad.
Agree, with one shoot zzaps are a joke, kannons have never been anything but a fifth rokkit.
If you could load it with a lobba, killkannon, stikkbomb chukka and four big shootas and then EVERYTHING would shoot twice when it moves slowly... now we're talking.
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Vineheart01 wrote: Not to mention no ork would call a single big gun on a wagon a "gunwagon"
I have an extra set of turrets for three of my wagons, because you could have both a killkannon and a kannon under the previous codices. Sadly, they removed that option.
I mean they do D6 damage instead of 3 so they are functionally different this time around.
Bout all that means is its another weapon Deathskullz would want to fire lol
Literally the only time i'll take a kannon over a killkannon is if its on a regular wagon, since the killkannon reduces transport to 12.
But on a bonebreaker/gunwagon, its already 12 anyway.
Jidmah wrote: Yesterday my speed freeks managed a clear win against the Ultramarines (15:6 VP maelstrom) despite me doing a ton of playing errors.
SJD and the two KBB did very well, scrap jet was outplayed by my opponent. Wartrike was bad.
The Morkanaut did ok, the bonebreakers much less so, but mostly due to my fault.
Warbikers probably won me the game with their first turn assault, though their cost plus 4CP to do so is hard to justify when you compare them to da jumping boyz or storm boyz.
Basically I pinned the ultramarines in their deployment zone for the entire game, while Calgar and an unkillable Leviathan ground through my entire army. My gretchin scored objectives all over the board and won the game.
I took some pictures, so I can do a thorough battle report if anyone wants that.
Jidmah wrote: Yesterday my speed freeks managed a clear win against the Ultramarines (15:6 VP maelstrom) despite me doing a ton of playing errors.
SJD and the two KBB did very well, scrap jet was outplayed by my opponent. Wartrike was bad.
The Morkanaut did ok, the bonebreakers much less so, but mostly due to my fault.
Warbikers probably won me the game with their first turn assault, though their cost plus 4CP to do so is hard to justify when you compare them to da jumping boyz or storm boyz.
Basically I pinned the ultramarines in their deployment zone for the entire game, while Calgar and an unkillable Leviathan ground through my entire army. My gretchin scored objectives all over the board and won the game.
I took some pictures, so I can do a thorough battle report if anyone wants that.
Big Mek (Index): Choppa, Grot Oiler, Kustom Force Field
Big Mek W/ Shokk Attack Gun: Big Killa Boss, Da Souped-up Shokka, Grot Oiler, Shokk Attack Gun, Warlord
My takeaways from that game is
- KBB are actually quite good, both of them made their points back
- SJD must be used with care, they are very powerful, but die very quickly. Might use exhaust cloud on it next time
- If I have points left, I will be using killsaws instead of PKs wherever possible. Guaranteed kills on primaris is worth two points
- Warbikers are better than expected 4+/T5/2W does a lot better in combat against primaris than regular boyz
- Wartrike has the combat ability of a weird boy, not of a warboss
- Even in mech lists, you need a weird boy, as it's our only reliable source of mortal wounds
- Spend CP based on what you are trying to kill, not base on the unit you are targeting with the stratagem
- Don't try to get two bonebreakas, a naut, a wartrike and a buggy across one bridge, if the other side is full of marines
- Don't try to kill, fight or go near Primaris Calagar. His durability and combat ability is insane, even if he is not buffed with might of heros.
- Feth Vitrix Honor Guard
Evil Sunz SSAG? well thats interesting. I see why you did it (4th FA slot needed and Mork being in the Dread Waaagh detachment while still being able to KFF protect the other things) but it still strikes me as weird lol.
So KBBs are good? i havnt used mine that much and the few times i did it just goes boom thanks to its laughably short range. People in my area are paranoid of flamers, even if theyre the S4 Ap0 variant for some reason.
Im guessing you didnt face ANY autocannon type weapons with those bikers. Thats whats stopped me from using them, even just 8 auto shots a turn is enough to completely neuter bikers since they lack the range (and speed relative to footprint) to avoid the shots.
Hey, I’m possibly going to start looking into Orks soon and I was curious whether a Nob army is viable. I’d like to run something that looks like Ghazghkull and his elite.
I’m also not exactly sure what’s particularly viable for Orks in terms of anti-tank when you don’t want normal Orks. Mek Gunz?
Nobs are, unfortunately, hard to run currently. They're basically easier to kill Marines, in a meta where killing Marines is a top priority. This might change when CA drops, if they get a good point drop, but right now you're better off running Boyz.
Mek Gunz, particularly Smashas, are your go-to for dealing with vehicles (if you don't wanna run Tankbustas), but you'll also probably want to field a SSAG and some regular SAGs. 3 of them on the board gives you a lot of anti-armor, and with 6-12 Smashas, you'll lay waste to most vehicle-heavy lists.
If you're new to Orkz, I wouldn't field Goffs (and Ghaz). Run Deathskullz, they're very "newbie" friendly. Build a CP Battery out of a Dreadwaagh Battalion with a SSAG, Weirdboy (with Da Jump), and 3×10 Gretchin, and 6 Smashas. Field a unit of 30 Boyz, 2x10 Gretchin, another Weirdboy (Warpath), 15 Lootas, and a SAG. That should give you a solid baseline (I don't got my book in front of me, but I estimate about 1200 pts spent here), with some room to include some Buggies, Warbikers, or anything else you might want to field.
flandarz wrote: Nobs are, unfortunately, hard to run currently. They're basically easier to kill Marines, in a meta where killing Marines is a top priority. This might change when CA drops, if they get a good point drop, but right now you're better off running Boyz.
Mek Gunz, particularly Smashas, are your go-to for dealing with vehicles (if you don't wanna run Tankbustas), but you'll also probably want to field a SSAG and some regular SAGs. 3 of them on the board gives you a lot of anti-armor, and with 6-12 Smashas, you'll lay waste to most vehicle-heavy lists.
If you're new to Orkz, I wouldn't field Goffs (and Ghaz). Run Deathskullz, they're very "newbie" friendly. Build a CP Battery out of a Dreadwaagh Battalion with a SSAG, Weirdboy (with Da Jump), and 3×10 Gretchin, and 6 Smashas. Field a unit of 30 Boyz, 2x10 Gretchin, another Weirdboy (Warpath), 15 Lootas, and a SAG. That should give you a solid baseline (I don't got my book in front of me, but I estimate about 1200 pts spent here), with some room to include some Buggies, Warbikers, or anything else you might want to field.
Thanks for the reply and that all sounds like good stuff
Vineheart01 wrote: Evil Sunz SSAG? well thats interesting. I see why you did it (4th FA slot needed and Mork being in the Dread Waaagh detachment while still being able to KFF protect the other things) but it still strikes me as weird lol.
He did better than most deff skulls SSAGs I've run so far However, if I'm going to run this list again, it will be completely deff skulls. The extra speed from evil suns didn't really matter outside of the first turn bonebreaka charge, while I definitely could have used that extra damage and the 6++ on many occasions. You definitely want the re-rolls on the morkanauts and buggies weapons, and it doesn't hurt for the PK/Killsaw either.
So KBBs are good? i havnt used mine that much and the few times i did it just goes boom thanks to its laughably short range. People in my area are paranoid of flamers, even if theyre the S4 Ap0 variant for some reason.
The rivet gun is what makes them great. It reliable kills primaris and damages vehicles, I only used the burnas when there happened to be a unit nearby, and I don't think those and the stikkbomb/grotblasta did more than 2 damage combined. The ram is a trap, with WS4+ and no AP, it has no business being in combat.
The way to get the most out of it is probably park it next to some chaff objective holders, stay far away from anything dangerous and then shoot the rivet gun at high value targets.
Im guessing you didnt face ANY autocannon type weapons with those bikers. Thats whats stopped me from using them, even just 8 auto shots a turn is enough to completely neuter bikers since they lack the range (and speed relative to footprint) to avoid the shots.
If you look at the battle report, they were locked in combat starting turn 1, my opponent never once got the chance to shoot them. They basically take the same role as da jump boyz or storm boyz, but are much more reliable to get their charge and arrest off and more durable in combat. In exchange, they cost more points (245 points) and 5 CP for the detachment and the two stratagems.
If you are keen on running Nobz, you might want to consider Flash Gitz - they have a Nob stat line, and are more durable if you put them in a Trukk. I have had some success with infantry Nobz, they can put out a good number of melee attacks at S5 if you give them two Choppa, and melee vehicles if you give them Big Choppa. Once again a Trukk helps them survive longer. Nob Bikerz have three wounds each, Which is tougher than two wound Bike Boyz, and Men’s also have the Nob Stat line, so Shokk Attack guns fit the theme.
Whatever you decide to go with, start small, and make sure you are happy with _ your _ army, as the current crop of Codex releases can put out a lot of attacks that hurt Nobz. It’s easier to live with defeats if you can appreciate your Orks for there story, rather than just how competitive they are.
Nobz are already 14ppm, they can't be cheaper than that. However pks could drop to 9pts like imperial power fists making them possibly cheaper and maybe meganobz could get a small price drop on their basic cost as well. Flash gitz also maybe. But nobz? Definitely not.
A unit of nobz in a trukk isn't bad at all if you run other vehicles for target saturation. If their vehicle is wrecked investing that CP to make them 3+ could be worthy.
Blackie wrote: Nobz are already 14ppm, they can't be cheaper than that. However pks could drop to 9pts like imperial power fists making them possibly cheaper and maybe meganobz could get a small price drop on their basic cost as well. Flash gitz also maybe. But nobz? Definitely not.
A unit of nobz in a trukk isn't bad at all if you run other vehicles for target saturation. If their vehicle is wrecked investing that CP to make them 3+ could be worthy.
Why can't? Marines have better stats and rules for around that price. Onlv reason can't cost less is orks are supposed to have inferior rules and die like good npc race is supposed to do
Blackie wrote: Nobz are already 14ppm, they can't be cheaper than that. However pks could drop to 9pts like imperial power fists making them possibly cheaper and maybe meganobz could get a small price drop on their basic cost as well. Flash gitz also maybe. But nobz? Definitely not.
A unit of nobz in a trukk isn't bad at all if you run other vehicles for target saturation. If their vehicle is wrecked investing that CP to make them 3+ could be worthy.
Why can't? Marines have better stats and rules for around that price. Onlv reason can't cost less is orks are supposed to have inferior rules and die like good npc race is supposed to do
SM are overpowered and undercosted, that's not a fair comparison. IMHO intercessors should be 24-25ppm. Compare nobz to boyz or other specialists instead.
And marines ain't going to that level ever as would reduce models players need to buy. As such they are now the yardstick to measure against. Gw will make others cheaper instead if anything to make people buy more, not sell excess
Not exactly an easy analog since boyz have S4, 2A, 6+ save and Nobz have S5, 3A, 2W, 4+ save. They are more than simply a boy with +1wound. Problem is 4+ save is not really easy to get through and unlike Primaris none of our nobz have access to both decent shooting and melee at the same time. Their guns more than DOUBLE their price and offer rather low output compared to....anything not just marines lol.
And i know this sounds weird coming from an ork player but i kinda wish they'd buff our stuff rather than make it cheaper. Its already a bit irritating to run 40+ models that are basically cannonfodder and 60-90 more that arent much better. Wont happen but i still wish it. Find it rather taxing on my patience that all the CA leaks have been 100% devoid of ANY ork leaks. Though seeing the recent Nid updates....im not expecting anything. GW has for sure gone back to their old issues of "xenos get nothing" - that nid reveal made me cringe....
Ca 2019 points leaks, if orks don´t get some love I´ll lose my fething mind.
Yeah, I just wanna know what's going on. Terminators dropping to 26 points makes me excited that stuff like Mega Nobz are about to get some real love. If we drop below 30, maybe we can field them competitively.
Sounds like Xenos may be getting hosed, though. Nids players seemed... upset.
Is it also a good / bad sign that the new marines got changes? Could it mean they were making updates closer to the fall?
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Vineheart01 wrote: Not exactly an easy analog since boyz have S4, 2A, 6+ save and Nobz have S5, 3A, 2W, 4+ save.
They are more than simply a boy with +1wound.
Problem is 4+ save is not really easy to get through and unlike Primaris none of our nobz have access to both decent shooting and melee at the same time. Their guns more than DOUBLE their price and offer rather low output compared to....anything not just marines lol.
And i know this sounds weird coming from an ork player but i kinda wish they'd buff our stuff rather than make it cheaper. Its already a bit irritating to run 40+ models that are basically cannonfodder and 60-90 more that arent much better.
Agreed on improvements. Games just take longer when you field 120+ models.
I think Kustom Shootas are actually a decent upgrade for 2 points, but those are being taken away for whatever bloody reason.
Vineheart01 wrote: Not exactly an easy analog since boyz have S4, 2A, 6+ save and Nobz have S5, 3A, 2W, 4+ save.
They are more than simply a boy with +1wound.
Yeah, that's why they can't be just 4-5ppm than a regular boy. +7ppm or 2x a regular boy sounds about right IMHO. In fact I wish they were even more expensive than now but more killy. 10-12 ppm nobz? Lol.
And i know this sounds weird coming from an ork player but i kinda wish they'd buff our stuff rather than make it cheaper. Its already a bit irritating to run 40+ models that are basically cannonfodder and 60-90 more that arent much better. Wont happen but i still wish it.
Find it rather taxing on my patience that all the CA leaks have been 100% devoid of ANY ork leaks. Though seeing the recent Nid updates....im not expecting anything. GW has for sure gone back to their old issues of "xenos get nothing" - that nid reveal made me cringe....
I 100% agree. Better stats, not cheaper units. I think than only the new buggies, MA big mek, runtherd and the stompa should go down in points. Some wargear also. But anything else that looks overpriced (walkers, burnas, nobz... but also naked lootas and bustas without stratagems) should simply be more effective.
Nid players (such as myself) are not upset, no. We are so filled with nerd rage (and nerd worrying about what sort of gak is coming out of the rumor tube in the next few days), that upset just doesn’t cut it.
I personally am going to my local GW store, and I am going to give the “Korn - Singles” treatment (watch that music video on YouTube if you are too young to know what I am on about)
If the leak about CSMs going to 11 ppm is true, then I don't see why Nobz can't be similarly priced.
We ain't gonna see no rules revisions for a few years, so while I'd also prefer better rules, I'll settle for more appropriately costed units until then.
flandarz wrote: If the leak about CSMs going to 11 ppm is true, then I don't see why Nobz can't be similarly priced.
We ain't gonna see no rules revisions for a few years, so while I'd also prefer better rules, I'll settle for more appropriately costed units until then.
Well 9th ed is rumored for next year. Along with 8.5 ed codexis. So there might be some room in there. But yes, I can't see CA changing the rules, just the points.
This stuff about wanting Orks to be tougher to feel cooler, and also not to have to have 100+ models is why I want to do an army with Nobz as the focus.
Tiberius501 wrote: This stuff about wanting Orks to be tougher to feel cooler, and also not to have to have 100+ models is why I want to do an army with Nobz as the focus.
Go for it man.
It won't stand up in competitive games but it is legal.
It's also a lot of painting, compared to Marines (if that's what you're used to).
Tiberius501 wrote: This stuff about wanting Orks to be tougher to feel cooler, and also not to have to have 100+ models is why I want to do an army with Nobz as the focus.
Samesies
I played a 1000 pts game vs Necrons and Dark Eldars this weekend. I had:
5 Nobz and a Runt in a Big Trakk w/ Supa-Skorcha
5 Nobz and a Warboss in a Big Trakk w/ Supa-Skorcha
5 Nobz and a Big Mek in a Big Trakk w/ Supa-Skorcha
We stopped counting victory points at turn 4, it was like 16-5 for me. They went for the kill instead.
Once all nobz are out of their ride, they die pretty fast... I got wiped out at the end of turn 6... Sad defeat, for sure.
Tiberius501 wrote: This stuff about wanting Orks to be tougher to feel cooler, and also not to have to have 100+ models is why I want to do an army with Nobz as the focus.
Samesies
I played a 1000 pts game vs Necrons and Dark Eldars this weekend. I had:
5 Nobz and a Runt in a Big Trakk w/ Supa-Skorcha
5 Nobz and a Warboss in a Big Trakk w/ Supa-Skorcha
5 Nobz and a Big Mek in a Big Trakk w/ Supa-Skorcha
We stopped counting victory points at turn 4, it was like 16-5 for me. They went for the kill instead.
Once all nobz are out of their ride, they die pretty fast... I got wiped out at the end of turn 6... Sad defeat, for sure.
It was still fun.
This is it man. This experience is what it is to play (and face) Orks IMO.
We do really well early game but late game things just tend to fall apart. Well that's what happens with my Biker/Buggies list anyways. Eventually it seems that we just run out of steam. Many of my opponents have thought they had lost far, far too early (and ended up winning).
This is it man. This experience is what it is to play (and face) Orks IMO.
We do really well early game but late game things just tend to fall apart. Well that's what happens with my Biker/Buggies list anyways. Eventually it seems that we just run out of steam. Many of my opponents have thought they had lost far, far too early (and ended up winning).
Orks can’t really take too many punches — when you have T-shirt’s on, we’re just going to whittle down to the nub.
If our stuff became cheap enough, we could field enough to have resilience
I hate it when GW does these mid-late edition design paradigm changes, since it inevitably favours marines and makes any of the earlier books even worse on the power curve. It happened last time with the decurion and I have a bad feeling that history is going to repeat itself with the mono-faction "doctrines" they're setting up everyone to have now.
Tiberius501 wrote: This stuff about wanting Orks to be tougher to feel cooler, and also not to have to have 100+ models is why I want to do an army with Nobz as the focus.
Samesies
I played a 1000 pts game vs Necrons and Dark Eldars this weekend. I had:
5 Nobz and a Runt in a Big Trakk w/ Supa-Skorcha
5 Nobz and a Warboss in a Big Trakk w/ Supa-Skorcha
5 Nobz and a Big Mek in a Big Trakk w/ Supa-Skorcha
We stopped counting victory points at turn 4, it was like 16-5 for me. They went for the kill instead.
Once all nobz are out of their ride, they die pretty fast... I got wiped out at the end of turn 6... Sad defeat, for sure.
It was still fun.
This is it man. This experience is what it is to play (and face) Orks IMO.
We do really well early game but late game things just tend to fall apart. Well that's what happens with my Biker/Buggies list anyways. Eventually it seems that we just run out of steam. Many of my opponents have thought they had lost far, far too early (and ended up winning).
Is this against competitive lists? Or just in general what happens to Orks?
Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote: I like to play normal nobs in a bonebreaker.
-10 dudes, 1klaw,6-7 bchoppas, 2-3 dual choppa. 2 grot.
Even when the bonebreaker is not open toped, you can still use the stratagem of boarding action. It's a nice niche trick.
IMHO, Meganobs are too slow and not menacing enough. Only purspose is to teleport/jump them to hold objectives.
Yeah, battlewagons with BC work pretty well IMO, my biggest issue is finding points for them. Those ~300 points could be spend on shooting that works starting T1, while the bonebreaka nobz usually need three turns to connect. Point drops might help here.
We didn't get any leaks yet, but stuff comparable to our buggies got 10-15 point drops across the board, so maybe that trend continues onto us. Also, with cultists and pox walkers dropping in points, we can safely assume that 4 points gretchin are off the menu.
I also really hope for point drops on rokkits, just like every year - if they don't drop, they'll be more expensive than combi-melta.
I prefer my Nobs in Trukks, personally, but each to their own. Evil Sunz Meganobz are deceptively rapid.
Spoiler:
I've done a bit of research and it looks as though we are the only faction not to have any points changes in Chapter Approved 2019. The points changes seem organised in alphabetical order and it goes from 'Necrons' to 'Officio Assassinorum' to 'Sisters of Silence' (on the same page).
I don't think I can link pics to the leaks here but just search "blood of kittens chapter approved leaks compilation" and you'll find it.
What the actual feth?
Ignore spoiler. I googled and got 2018 leaks, somehow.
An Actual Englishman wrote: I prefer my Nobs in Trukks, personally, but each to their own. Evil Sunz Meganobz are deceptively rapid.
I've done a bit of research and it looks as though we are the only faction not to have any points changes in Chapter Approved 2019. The points changes seem organised in alphabetical order and it goes from 'Necrons' to 'Officio Assassinorum' to 'Sisters of Silence' (on the same page).
I don't think I can link pics to the leaks here but just search "blood of kittens chapter approved leaks compilation" and you'll find it
What the actual feth?
MANs delivery is not their mayor problem, it's hiw little they kill with their PK hitting on 4+.
As for the CA, I think we will know something today. Don't panic.
An Actual Englishman wrote: I prefer my Nobs in Trukks, personally, but each to their own. Evil Sunz Meganobz are deceptively rapid.
I've done a bit of research and it looks as though we are the only faction not to have any points changes in Chapter Approved 2019. The points changes seem organised in alphabetical order and it goes from 'Necrons' to 'Officio Assassinorum' to 'Sisters of Silence' (on the same page).
I don't think I can link pics to the leaks here but just search "blood of kittens chapter approved leaks compilation" and you'll find it
What the actual feth?
MANs delivery is not their mayor problem, it's hiw little they kill with their PK hitting on 4+.
As for the CA, I think we will know something today. Don't panic.
Ignore my post, I was looking at leaks from last year!
Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote: I like to play normal nobs in a bonebreaker.
-10 dudes, 1klaw,6-7 bchoppas, 2-3 dual choppa. 2 grot.
Even when the bonebreaker is not open toped, you can still use the stratagem of boarding action. It's a nice niche trick.
IMHO, Meganobs are too slow and not menacing enough. Only purspose is to teleport/jump them to hold objectives.
Yeah, battlewagons with BC work pretty well IMO, my biggest issue is finding points for them. Those ~300 points could be spend on shooting that works starting T1, while the bonebreaka nobz usually need three turns to connect. Point drops might help here.
We didn't get any leaks yet, but stuff comparable to our buggies got 10-15 point drops across the board, so maybe that trend continues onto us. Also, with cultists and pox walkers dropping in points, we can safely assume that 4 points gretchin are off the menu.
I also really hope for point drops on rokkits, just like every year - if they don't drop, they'll be more expensive than combi-melta.
I find nobs fairly priced. PKlaws could use a drop, even bchoppas, but not the base nob.
Points sink comes.from the bonebreaker. 159 is too much. 130-140 is where it shoud be.
I feel like CSMs dropping to 11 ppm SHOULD mean that our Nobz should get a drop of 1-2 points too. You'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who'd argue that Nobz are more powerful than CSMs. +1 M, -2 A, -1 W, -2 BS, +1 Ld, and -1 Save is probably a wash, realistically. Nobz are better in CC, but CSMs are slightly more durable, faster, and much better at ranged.
An Actual Englishman wrote: I prefer my Nobs in Trukks, personally, but each to their own. Evil Sunz Meganobz are deceptively rapid.
I've done a bit of research and it looks as though we are the only faction not to have any points changes in Chapter Approved 2019. The points changes seem organised in alphabetical order and it goes from 'Necrons' to 'Officio Assassinorum' to 'Sisters of Silence' (on the same page).
I don't think I can link pics to the leaks here but just search "blood of kittens chapter approved leaks compilation" and you'll find it
What the actual feth?
MANs delivery is not their mayor problem, it's hiw little they kill with their PK hitting on 4+.
As for the CA, I think we will know something today. Don't panic.
There are a good deal of list with 20 MANZ that came top 4. How they deal with knights however. No idea
having being on the receiving end of a mass of Powerfists with my knight, trust me that many klaws can still wreck a knight's day. Its only issue is its 4s all around, and 50-50 odds sometimes flops completely.
MANz are solid, though. Thrown in cover they are one of our few units that can actually take a punch without much support.
Their charge range is decent as evil suns too.
They clear chaff with their shootas, and 30 PK attacks is a threat to a lot of things, even if the 4+ to hit is less than ideal.
Issue is if they are worth 35 points. Maybe not. And less so in a marine dominant meta where people build to kill centurions.
Vineheart01 wrote: Nauts are good, theyre not anything super crazy good but theyre pretty solid. I rarely play w/o one these days
Sweet. And the last question and I’ll stop spamming this thread, if I were to go with a horde of 30 boyz, are they better with Shootas, Choppas or a mix?
Most folks field a mix. Generally 19 Choppas, 1 Choppa Nob, and 10 Shootas. But, if you're running Bad Moonz, you might get more mileage out of a full 30 Shootas.
The annoying bit for me is my local gaming store does D20 Discounts on blackfriday and i was wanting to grab some buggies.
And no leaks about ork stuff yet so if i want them, blind purchase. And that hasnt gone well for me in the past lol.
Vineheart01 wrote: The annoying bit for me is my local gaming store does D20 Discounts on blackfriday and i was wanting to grab some buggies.
And no leaks about ork stuff yet so if i want them, blind purchase. And that hasnt gone well for me in the past lol.
Do not buy anything! Just like you I was burnt many times this way ! Resist ! What you buy will get a two point drop at best, tyranid warrior style
Saw picture where guy wrote down point costs(or so he claimed). About 15-20 pts level point drops. 120 pts one went to 102 pts etc. That was if weapon prices didn't change. It was new base cost+weapons he calculated.
Not confirmed though. But not major. Stompa 800 pts before weapons, grots 3
Spoiler:
For what it's worth. As said I can't quarantee it's reliable. Just post in ork FB group who claims his friend has the CA in his hand.
Stompa i am convinced they dont want people to use legitimately, just use it as a joke army because its so dang old it aesthetically doesnt really fit much anymore.
Not even that great in Apocalypse tbh, where most uber big things are surprisingly good.
I wouldnt put it past them the moment that mold breaks or stops producing remotely acceptable casts they'll shelf the stompa instantly.
I'd be more convinced they didn't want people to use it as a legitimate choice if they hadn't busted out the (Deamon) primarchs and given Knights their own codex. As it stands it's just a needless insult to Orks who don't get a proper LoW when other's do. Not that I'd personally use one in a 2000 point game mind you.
flandarz wrote: Yeah, Stompa needed a HUGE drop to be viable. Even fully kitted out it shouldn't be more than maybe 600.
Fully kitted out a Stompa is right about 600pts, maybe less since it doesn't have a natural Invuln save. The fact that a Knight is almost as good at 1/3rd the cost should tell you something. Honestly, I have resisted buying one for 2 reasons. 1: They honestly don't look that good and 2: They suck, and have sucked for so long that its almost a running joke at this point. I remember in 6th when people were doing 1Vs1 Battles of a Stompa against other super heavies of similar points and the stompa NEVER won.
I find nobs fairly priced. PKlaws could use a drop, even bchoppas, but not the base nob.
Points sink comes.from the bonebreaker. 159 is too much. 130-140 is where it shoud be.
A Nob is 14pts and has less movement, ballistic skill, save and leadership then a Marine who is now 11pts but has -1 strength and -2 attacks. So Nobz are significantly better at CC then SM's but are less durable, suck at range and are slower. Ohh and more expensive. Nobz are in a bad spot because they are just better boyz but are so much more expensive that they aren't worth the price increase. For 1 nob you can have 2 Boyz, and more importantly, when slammed with a 2Dmg weapon with -1+ AP you still only lose 1 boy compared to a Nob. And realistically in this edition 2dmg weapons aren't exactly...rare.
BoneBreakers would be fine at 159 if they had a 2+ save or a 3+ save with more attacks. I don't like the solution of always lowering points cost when you can just buff stats to adjust the unit. A Bonebreaker is great if it had a bit more durability and attacks. But, if a points drop had to happen instead of a buff I would say its closer to 120pts.
Vineheart01 wrote: having being on the receiving end of a mass of Powerfists with my knight, trust me that many klaws can still wreck a knight's day.
Its only issue is its 4s all around, and 50-50 odds sometimes flops completely.
A knight is T8 and has 24 wounds on a 3+ save. A Nob with a PK is 3 attacks hitting on 4s at S10 with -3 AP and average damage of 2. So a Single nob with a PK does 1.5 hits, 1 wound and 1.66 damage a turn, in order to kill a Knight in a single assault phase you would need 15 nobz with PKs which costs 405pts. You also need transports to get them into range or a lot of CP to teleporta them or A weirdboy to Da Jump them, but in overwatch a knight can easily toast a few Nobz so really you need about 18-20 Nobz to average a Knight kill a turn.
I would be fine with PKs staying at the current price but upgrading them to not have -1 to hit and giving them a Flat 3 damage. you could make a Killsaw do 3D2 damage to differentiate the two. so guaranteed 3dmg but likely 4+.
The gist of it is that Knights aren't afraid of Nobz as it currently stands.
SemperMortis wrote: A Nob is 14pts and has less movement, ballistic skill, save and leadership then a Marine who is now 11pts but has -1 strength and -2 attacks. So Nobz are significantly better at CC then SM's but are less durable, suck at range and are slower. Ohh and more expensive. Nobz are in a bad spot because they are just better boyz but are so much more expensive that they aren't worth the price increase. For 1 nob you can have 2 Boyz, and more importantly, when slammed with a 2Dmg weapon with -1+ AP you still only lose 1 boy compared to a Nob. And realistically in this edition 2dmg weapons aren't exactly...rare.
For the -2 attack did you factor in marines having the shock attack rule? That's extra attack right there.
Very, very few point reductions. But I saw big mek cfk in there, so will we be allowed to keep him and ditch mega armour big mek ? I didn’t see our boss variants, so I am hopeful that cfk big mek gets a pass on becoming legend. Which is logical as he has a fairly recent and good looking GW model
Though flash bitz seem to have gone down 4, 5 or 6 ppm. That is
Flash gitz at last might become a thing. Deff koptas might also become a thing, not sure how to use them though, but cheap per wound now.
Too bad so much of our other stuff is stuck at a much too high price.
I honestly thought the hauts would get something, but ok just the deff dreads then...
Very surprised that our shock attack gunz and mek gunz didn’t get nerfed (2 ppm per model for the gunz yeah ok that is fair)
flandarz wrote: The Smasha weapon on the Mek Gunz might go up still.
I just checked the actual list for all the weapons of interest plus some random weapons, but all stayed the same. The image was blurry, so I misread the smasha.
addnid wrote: Flash gitz at last might become a thing. Deff koptas might also become a thing, not sure how to use them though, but cheap per wound now.
Too bad so much of our other stuff is stuck at a much too high price.
I honestly thought the hauts would get something, but ok just the deff dreads then...
Very surprised that our shock attack gunz and mek gunz didn’t get nerfed (2 ppm per model for the gunz yeah ok that is fair)
Flashgitz with no bonuses, backed by Badrukk, have 75% ROI vs primaris, it is the best thing we have in the whole codex to kill primaris, Lootas by comparison have 23% and need a gakload of CP and are locked in BM.
You can have Badrukk and FG in a Evil Sunz battallion and you are still good to go. The only problem is that you wont benefit to Grot shield or +1 to hit.
addnid wrote: Flash gitz at last might become a thing. Deff koptas might also become a thing, not sure how to use them though, but cheap per wound now.
Too bad so much of our other stuff is stuck at a much too high price.
I honestly thought the hauts would get something, but ok just the deff dreads then...
Very surprised that our shock attack gunz and mek gunz didn’t get nerfed (2 ppm per model for the gunz yeah ok that is fair)
Flashgitz with no bonuses, backed by Badrukk, have 75% ROI vs primaris, it is the best thing we have in the whole codex to kill primaris, Lootas by comparison have 23% and need a gakload of CP and are locked in BM.
You can have Badrukk and FG in a Evil Sunz battallion and you are still good to go. The only problem is that you wont benefit to Grot shield or +1 to hit.
Yep good analysis. I plan on letting them get shot anyway so. Let the trukk and loot it strat protect em. will be running 30 from now on I think (for at least a few games)
Btw I am convinced we have the frontline gaming guy to thank for (or friend of one of the FLG guys) who owns (or so I heard) 60 of these flash gitz models he loves them so much. That and of course the “fairly new model” syndrom
Absolutely hyped about Flash Gitz, I've been trying to make them happen in games and the points drops have effectively given them a trukk.
Deffkoptas change is really interesting imo, I've been running MSU deffkoptas as deathskullz and get a lot of value out of that. This makes running the deathskulls brigade at least 30 points cheaper too.
I think this point drop could make running large units of deffkoptas in other klans worth running. Evil Sunz and bad moonz could milk this.
The drop to buggies is really cool. I saw some tourney lists running megatrakk scrapjets before. It may very well be worth it to run buggies. They still have the same weaknesses but you can squeeze more redundant buggies.
The drops to deff dreads is nice, I think it'll make them more enticing, especially for dakka dreads with kustom mega blastas.
Killa kans drop I like but I don't think it'll matter. They still need babysitting to matter. Maybe running 18 killa kans will be weirdly effective for the raw number of cheap wounds, similar to admech breachers.
The complete lack of changes to FW units hurts. I struggle to run them in casual games now.
Emicrania wrote: Math on 12 Burna in trukk:
182 point for 12W T4 6+ and 10W t6 4+ 6++(you know is not, but yeah)
10 dead Guardsmen 22% ROI
4 dead Marines 33% ROI
2 dead Primaris 22% ROI
4 dead Drones 24% ROI
So you get your points back IF you can shoot 3 times or go bananas and go CC T2 (good luck with that)
In CC you get
5 Dead Guardsmen 16,5% ROI
2 Dead Marines 25% ROI
1 Dead Primaris 16,5% ROI
1 Dead Drone 9% ROI
So your target are OG marines or elves. Eitherwise you ll never get your points back
Like I said, I feel like they would work well as a "Distraction Carnifex". I don't really expect them to give me a good RoI, but they should be threatening enough that your opponent wouldn't want them running around. I'd probably put 10+KFF Mek and Oil Grot in a Trukk for about 250 pts, which should give it a bit more durability and make it a more tempting target.
Another thing I missed is Skorcha Missiles going to 5 points, from 20, making it a pretty decent weapon instead of a waste of points.
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An Actual Englishman wrote: Nob Bikes dropping is nice, it's not enough but at least they see there's an issue.
I somehow doubt dropping them by 5 points fixes them. Even with big choppas, they are not going to kill three times their number in primaris marines to make up for their points.
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flandarz wrote: Like I said, I feel like they would work well as a "Distraction Carnifex". I don't really expect them to give me a good RoI, but they should be threatening enough that your opponent wouldn't want them running around. I'd probably put 10+KFF Mek and Oil Grot in a Trukk for about 250 pts, which should give it a bit more durability and make it a more tempting target.
For 250 points you could just run a bonebreaka boyz inside...
That's a fair point, but I'm under no delusions that a Burna Trukk is optimal. I'm just making an argument that it's viable. Ie: is it dangerous enough to divert fire from your Buggies, Smashas, and Gitz?
Automatically Appended Next Post: And, if not, is it gonna be able to lay down some hurt on your opponent for ignoring it?
before this, i was on the lootaside in the "loota vs flash gitz" argument. Now i don't know anymore..
lootas are still 7ppm cheaper,
lootas are weaker, easier to remove.
shooting strentgh is the same against most targets, so ap-2 of snazzguns is nice
range of lootas is still a big + to me
and i have a lot of loota models and no flash gitz...
That feels really weird only having 2 wargear options change, especially since a lot of them are overpriced. NONE of our characters dropped? good grief... or bikers? least nobbikers might be enticing now.
Either way, super glad to see buggies and koptas drop. Still not sure if i wanna use Koptas since Rokkits are 24pts still but i dont feel like im wasting points now using them.
Vineheart01 wrote: That feels really weird only having 2 wargear options change, especially since a lot of them are overpriced.
NONE of our characters dropped? good grief... or bikers? least nobbikers might be enticing now.
Either way, super glad to see buggies and koptas drop. Still not sure if i wanna use Koptas since Rokkits are 24pts still but i dont feel like im wasting points now using them.
Also stompa only -50 LOL good one gw...
I am actually Ok with the stompa price. It's an outdated model with a quality design according to its time. Having a profile for narrative is cool, otherwise it should not stomp a tabletop, too much out of scale.
Bikers are a big let down. I was expecting a minimum drop to 20. Nob bikers at 33 are still too much. 28 would be their fair value. Actually, a kopta with 2xbshoota will be 30pts and will be far better than a biker.
Completely agree with the weapon point values. Bshootas too expensive. Rokkits, even more. Powerklaws, don't get me started with them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Buggies drop is nice, as it's the gitzs. However , can shake off the feeling that thay are pushing the new kits down our throats
flandarz wrote: That's a fair point, but I'm under no delusions that a Burna Trukk is optimal. I'm just making an argument that it's viable. Ie: is it dangerous enough to divert fire from your Buggies, Smashas, and Gitz?
Automatically Appended Next Post: And, if not, is it gonna be able to lay down some hurt on your opponent for ignoring it?
Ok, let me put it in another way. For 240 you now get 3 KBB which have 12 burnas built in, plus three rivet guns and more wounds. That's strictly better than a burna trukk.
In any case, burnas are a unit which doesn't function on any point value, as they are just a sidegrade to ork boyz minus all the advantages of being troops (CP, filling mandatory slots, obsec). Any time you bring them, you can just replace them 1:1 with boyz and have a superior army.
At which point your question becomes: Would anyone shoot a unit of trukkboyz over buggies, smashas or gitz? Of course they won't.
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Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote: I am actually Ok with the stompa price. It's an outdated model with a quality design according to its time. Having a profile for narrative is cool, otherwise it should not stomp a tabletop, too much out of scale.
I disagree. It was released at the same time as the plastic baneblade and should be just as viable.
Yeah lot of people think the stompa is super-duper old like its the literal first giant model or something. Its not. It looks like its one of the earliest non-gorkamorka style designs, since the grots in it look like current grots.
They are a little under twice a baneblade right now. Dunno bout you, but 2x baneblades for ~100pts more than 1 stompa sounds way scarier. Local guard player uses a baneblade (forget which variant) all the time and that thing is the bane (HA) of my existence if i roll bad on the SSAG
I admit the Stompa is a bit big for regular 40k, but its existence also means we wont get anything between it and a Naut because....why would we? Naut basically is our knight w/o being a knight (which imo makes it BETTER than an orkified knight would be, since its not LoW). It exists, its not a Titan, so i want to be able to use it. Not asking to be able to use it in 1500pt games, but 2k-4k i should be able to without feeling like i cut half my army out for little gain.
flandarz wrote: That's a fair point, but I'm under no delusions that a Burna Trukk is optimal. I'm just making an argument that it's viable. Ie: is it dangerous enough to divert fire from your Buggies, Smashas, and Gitz?
Automatically Appended Next Post: And, if not, is it gonna be able to lay down some hurt on your opponent for ignoring it?
Ok, let me put it in another way. For 240 you now get 3 KBB which have 12 burnas built in, plus three rivet guns and more wounds. That's strictly better than a burna trukk.
In any case, burnas are a unit which doesn't function on any point value, as they are just a sidegrade to ork boyz minus all the advantages of being troops (CP, filling mandatory slots, obsec). Any time you bring them, you can just replace them 1:1 with boyz and have a superior army.
At which point your question becomes: Would anyone shoot a unit of trukkboyz over buggies, smashas or gitz? Of course they won't.
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Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote: I am actually Ok with the stompa price. It's an outdated model with a quality design according to its time. Having a profile for narrative is cool, otherwise it should not stomp a tabletop, too much out of scale.
I disagree. It was released at the same time as the plastic baneblade and should be just as viable.
Which is another model that's, IMHO, out of what it should be the scale of a normal 40k battle. Although less evident than the stompa.
Baneblade and variants has aged better. Again, personal opinion.
i just realized. All the buggies dropped quite a bit except the Wartrike apparently? Thats..... So the wartrike is now the most expensive buggie and easily the weakest overall punch-wise but it has that aura. Ugh... orks paying through the nose for the ONE aura we have (which also explains why the boss isnt cheaper, since outside that aura he is pretty gak)
I 100% forgot the KBB has Burnas too. Yeah. You're right. A real shame, that is.
On the positive side, we can field real competitive Speed Freekz armies now. Get your CP Dread Waagh Battery (with 12 Smashas), and pair it with 3x units KBBs and Scrapjets and a FG Trukk and that's pretty nasty. Pretty sure you'll have at least 500 pts after all that to spend on other stuff too. That's pretty good.
I have given the squig buggy another read and I think it might just be worth 100 points. I guess I'm going to get one and try it out. Worst case, it's a scrapjet proxy
I really can´t immagine a working buggie list at competitive level. I might buy one of each because rule of cool, but really that is all there is on the buggy ATM, we ll see in PA4. But my hopes are pretty low.
Im assuming the only Squig you'd fire is the Boom Squig. 2D3 BS4+ shots and D3 BS5+ shots S6 AP1 D3D at 36" feels like its best option. Which...isnt much.
Awhile ago i misread how that thing is loaded out and thought each of its crew had that squiglauncher, not the crew as a whole. So i gave it literally 5x the guns and it still performed like crap for me lol. It has the same issue the Snazzwagon has, though not quite as badly. The weapon profile is just not that interesting, it'd need a stat boost or an INSANE price drop to be worth it. Even post-buff i dont see why you'd run a Snazz over a KBB, theyre pretty similar outside the Snazz has -1 to hit (but offset by 4+ kaboom death)
So I’ve made my second Ork list. Not meant to be super competitive but hopefully competent enough for some good, fun games? I mainly fight Ultras, Custodes, DG, Tyranids and soon Sisters.
Spoiler:
—[Goffs Battalion]—
HQ - Ghazghkull
- Big Mek in Mega Armour w/ Kustom Forcefield
TROOP
- 30x Boyz w/ 10x Shootas, 19x Choppas, Boss w/ 2x Choppas (Skarboyz upgrade)
- 10x Gretchen
- 10x Gretchen
ELITE
- 5x Meganobz w/ Klaws and Kustom Shootas
- 10x Nobz w/ Big Choppas
- 10x Nobz w/ duel Choppas
FLYER
- Dakkajet w/ 6x Supa Shootas
TRANSPORT
- Trukk
- Trukk
—[Goffs Spearhead]—
HQ - Big Mek w/ Souped-up Shokk Attack Gun
HEAVY SUPPORT
- Bonebreaka
- 2x Deff Dreads stock
- 3x Mek Gunz w/ Kustom Mega Kannons
I think the 4+ Explode and -1 to hit are good reasons to field the Snazzwagon. You can get it pretty close range for shooting and charge it in to deal some MWs when they fight it. But I agree that it doesn't quite measure up to our other Buggies. Sacrificing 100 pts to have a 50% chance to deal D3 MWs ain't exactly a winning strategy.
I love the idea that orks would just strap explosives to a vehicle so when it inevitably blows up they make sure its a BIG boom.
Snazzwagon feels like they were going that route but D3 mortals doesnt really do enough to justify sacrificing it. Flat3 or D6 would have made it worth it (risky since if it blows up on your half...oops)
I don't know if I missed something. But I listened to some dude reading the fw section.
The chinork warkopta dropped to 74 points?
Killtank 365
Squiggoth(regular) dropped to 160
They added the warboss on warbike for 95
If these were already in play, nevermind I'm no fw gamer
Guess it’s time to field lots of flash gitz. How do we keep them around?
The biggest complaint is they are short ranged and are kulture locked. Even if you took a freebootas detachment, how are you keeping the Grots in position / alive?
I have no idea how only the FA stuff basically got a drop. Orks have way more issues.
Nids also got very few point reductions, and gen cult got some very odd price hikes. Just to say Orks probably got it better than bugs, and I feel their PA will be much better than the bug one (which is not bad, it is just not enough in the current meta)
addnid wrote: Nids also got very few point reductions, and gen cult got some very odd price hikes. Just to say Orks probably got it better than bugs, and I feel their PA will be much better than the bug one (which is not bad, it is just not enough in the current meta)
Hear ya. Just sad when the imperium gets candy and hookers and blow. Xenos get hosed.
But yeah this is overall a minor buff. It could have been worse.
I think we did alright, honestly. So far it looks like the Smasha only got a 2pt hike, and I think that was the only increase. If we make it out of a CA with 50% pricedrops, I'd call that a win.
We got a lot of drops that I feel are gonna shift our competitive lists, and therefore what our opponent will need to expect from us. That's a good thing.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I just realized how cheap Dreadz are now. 75 pts (with 4 Saws) gives you 8 T7 3+ Wounds. For less than the price of a Gork, you could field 4 of them and have 32 T7 3+ Wounds. That's some real good value.
Vineheart01 wrote: That feels really weird only having 2 wargear options change, especially since a lot of them are overpriced.
NONE of our characters dropped? good grief... or bikers? least nobbikers might be enticing now.
Either way, super glad to see buggies and koptas drop. Still not sure if i wanna use Koptas since Rokkits are 24pts still but i dont feel like im wasting points now using them.
Also stompa only -50 LOL good one gw...
I am actually Ok with the stompa price. It's an outdated model with a quality design according to its time. Having a profile for narrative is cool, otherwise it should not stomp a tabletop, too much out of scale.
Bikers are a big let down. I was expecting a minimum drop to 20. Nob bikers at 33 are still too much.
Sorry but those are noob reasons for artificially making rules bad. There#s no excuse for artifically making rules broken/too weak and that's one of the most ridiculous reasons.
Also out of scale? In case you have been living under rock for decade big models is now all the fuzz in gw games.
flandarz wrote: I think we did alright, honestly. So far it looks like the Smasha only got a 2pt hike, and I think that was the only increase. If we make it out of a CA with 50% pricedrops, I'd call that a win.
We got a lot of drops that I feel are gonna shift our competitive lists, and therefore what our opponent will need to expect from us. That's a good thing.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I just realized how cheap Dreadz are now. 75 pts (with 4 Saws) gives you 8 T7 3+ Wounds. For less than the price of a Gork, you could field 4 of them and have 32 T7 3+ Wounds. That's some real good value.
It's probably worth spending the extra 5 points on 1 Klaw; it upgrades 3 attacks to do flat 3 damage (which is good for certain marine units).
I was wrong anyway, Saws are 10pts, not 5. So it'd be 95 per for the 4 Saws, or 100 for 3 Saw and a Klaw. Still not awful, but my bad math made it a LOT better. Haha!
Do people think this will shake up the our competitive lists? Is a mecha buggy spam cheap enough to maybe work?
Deff Dreads are good and all, but I'm not sure a 10 point cheap Deff Dread is really enough for tourney play. I love the models, though, so I'll probably toss them in occasionally.
id say 3 of the 6 buggies are awesome now with Snazz being....acceptable but still meh and Squig being terribad.
Wartrike only good because its an HQ and that aura, like before, still sucks on its own.
flandarz wrote: I think our Buggies are REAL good now. Even if just for durability, 80pts for T6 W8 Sv4+ ain't bad.
I just own a Megatrakk and that thing has done *work* in my games. I just don't really play against the craziest BS out there.
I guess you could legitmately field something like 9 buggies for ~900 points now? I suppose that could be extremely annoying and even have quite a bit of firepower. It could also provide roadblockers to some of our more fragile units.
flandarz wrote: I think the 4+ Explode and -1 to hit are good reasons to field the Snazzwagon. You can get it pretty close range for shooting and charge it in to deal some MWs when they fight it. But I agree that it doesn't quite measure up to our other Buggies. Sacrificing 100 pts to have a 50% chance to deal D3 MWs ain't exactly a winning strategy.
The snazzwagon's explosion has d6" range though, negating the increased chance to explode with a chance to just explode 1 or 2" and not actually hitting anything.
The KBB works because of the rivet gun, and sometimes you can finish off things with the mortal wounds from the ram. All other guns are situational and might not actually kill anything over the course of the game. The snazz wagon has a worse gun with less range, no ram and costs the same. The -1 to hit is all but irrelevant, as no one would ever bother to shoot it, even left alone and shooting at optimal targets it will be unable to contribute to your game in a meaningful way.
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masterhobo wrote: Why is the skorcha 17 points when it has the same exact profile as the heavy flamer which is 14 points?
You can't fire heavy flamers after advancing. Whether that's worth 3 points is another discussion.
really annoyed they still havent pricedropped the base battlewagon price on Supakannon/Liftadroppa wagons.
Supakannon is so close to being good but at ~210pts its on the "its bad" side of the fence. Had it got that 40pt base price reduction other wagons got it would be amazing. Not a single FW model went down for us. All the "changes" were carried over from last year.
To be fair, the Snazzwagon gets more shors with its gun, and against MEQ the S difference is negligible (but I'll admit the difference between 1 and 2 damage is a high hurdle) and they're both so fast the difference between 24" and 36" will likely never come up. It also has slightly better grenades.
What a Snazzwagon does better than a KBB is area denial. It's tougher to kill at range and riskier to kill in CC. It may not kill a whole lot, but three of them lined up can easily deny a quarter of the board to your opponent (assuming a proper amount of terrain).
Is it optimal? Probably not. But you could probably find a use for it in your army and not regret the decision. If you HAD to choose KBB or Snazzwagon, I'd also choose the former every single time, but I ain't gonna be mad if I bring both. I've had Snazzwagons win games by just sitting on an Objective and being a pain to remove from it.
Uhm, ok it's clear that GW don't want to see Stompas on the table. 50 points reduction, what a joke.
Nice that the buggies got a reduction - it was well deserved. Although the Deffkilla Wartrike did also need to go down, it's the weakest when it comes to damage output, and while the aura is nice, the things it can boost are still too expensive.
I'm sad that Trukks are still too expensive - it would have been nice to make Trukk boys viable through a good reduction, but I guess only points is not enough (that would break other things), you need some kind of rules change to make 11 boyz + a nob pose any kind of threat,
Same with Warbikers - I would have liked to see them reduced a bit too, for me they simply never manage to do much. They kill a squad of scouts or rangers, and maybe hold an objective for a turn, then they get shot off the board without effort. I don't think they've ever made their points back for me.
Oh and then we have the Burnas... yeah thanks for the token reduction, but they are simply just useless. Come on, give us an updated datasheet or a useful strategem, they just don't work as they are today. It's such a shame, because I love the models, and the idea of them.
I still have to do the math, but I am convinced that the guffie are still not worthy of competitive play.
The Stompa has been a slap in the face.
The transports are overpriced, at best.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I was thinkin to buy some orks but I just saw the trailer for the next PA, we are last than? in March?!
Am I going nuts or have the prices increased for some units? I could have sworn the buggies were 35 euros. They are 40 now and so are mek guns. And morkas 100?
Well, the Dragsta and the Scrapjet compete for the same targets, so I'd say our best anti-infantry Buggy is the KBB and our best AA buggy is the Scrapjet. Those Burnas and Rivet Gun on the KBB can put in some work, especially if you run Evil Sunz, and the Scrapjet just eats vehicles.
I'd say both of those easily bump up a tier. The others may, more or less, remain static.
flandarz wrote: To be fair, the Snazzwagon gets more shors with its gun, and against MEQ the S difference is negligible (but I'll admit the difference between 1 and 2 damage is a high hurdle) and they're both so fast the difference between 24" and 36" will likely never come up. It also has slightly better grenades.
The distance is important to target valuable targets on another flank and stay away from threats. You don't want to park a buggy in bolt drill and plasma range.
What a Snazzwagon does better than a KBB is area denial. It's tougher to kill at range and riskier to kill in CC. It may not kill a whole lot, but three of them lined up can easily deny a quarter of the board to your opponent (assuming a proper amount of terrain).
Look, go play a snazzwagon and tell me how that went. -1 to hit is a theoretical advantage at best, and if you have proper amount of terrain, those buggies will be primarily blocking each other. The only reason why the KBB is not hot garbage is because it is basically three deffguns on a very mobile and durable platform. S5 AP-2 1D is a profile that is not needed in an ork army and therefore worthless, as is paying 80 points to deal d3 MW on a 4+. Heck, when you think about, at 100 points the squig buggy does all that vastly better.
Is it optimal? Probably not. But you could probably find a use for it in your army and not regret the decision. If you HAD to choose KBB or Snazzwagon, I'd also choose the former every single time, but I ain't gonna be mad if I bring both. I've had Snazzwagons win games by just sitting on an Objective and being a pain to remove from it.
So you are telling me that a Snazzwagon is better at sitting on an objective because -1 to hit? While a KBB could sit on the very same objective and actually contribute to winning the game?
Plus, how is the buggy holding the objective? Even tau could assault it and holt their own in combat, while just outnumbering it to take the objective.
They're running out of space marines to pit against them, so Necrons will probably be left out, just like in the Vigilus campaign.
Or, no I know, they'll be pitted against Imperial Knights, who will get an awesome new knight variant with psychic powers, and the Necrons will get... uh, a one-use relic with a 4+ chance to deny the witch, or something.
Anyway, it would be weird if orks got anything else than a plastic Weirdboy IMO, given the theme and all, but then on the other hand, Ghazzy hears the voices of Gork and Mork so there is some connection there too, so those rumors (which I always thought were wishlisting) might have some truth to them. Too bad he's locked into Goffs. This with the klans is nice and all, but it kinda annoys me that special characters are always locked in to one specific subfaction.
If you're using a KBB and always staying outside of 24", you might be better off using Gitz in a Trukk at that point. 6 S7 AP-2 D2 shots at Ork BS ain't gonna get you too far. That's 2.33 hits (like 2.5 if you got Bad Moonz, but why would you?), 1.55 Wounds vs MEQ, and 2.03 Damage after MEQ Saves.
Snazzy puts in a more precarious situation, but has 9 S5 AP-2 D1 shots, netting 3.5 hits (like 4.2 with Bad Moonz, but again: why?), 2.33 Wounds against MEQ, and 1.55 Damage after Saves. Not really doing much worse than the KBB there (it deals 3 damage for every 4 damage the KBB puts out).
Obviously these numbers change drastically within 8", where the Burnas come into play, but this was an argument about Range, right?
A -1 to hit is 16.6% less damage on average. That's fairly significant, at least to me. Another example: against S6 AP-3 D1 weapons firing at BS 4+ (hypothetical gun for easy maths), it would take 32 shots to take out a KBB, while it would take 48 shots to take down the Snazzwagon. Unless you mean "hypothetical" in that no one would ever shoot it, which is fair.
I can literally drive them into gaps between building to block access to an Objective that is held by, say, Grots. Remember that Buggies break into separate units on deployment, so there's no reason I need to send them all the same way and they shouldn't block each other. At least, no more than any other Buggy, so using "they'll block each other" as an argument is disingenuous if you're stance is that another Buggy is better.
I think you forgot that Buggies have a large footprint. Park it sideways 2.9" from the Objective, between it and your opponent and even if they charge you, they'll be unlikely to Consolidate and Pile In to reach it. Unless they were already close enough to do so regardless. Depending on how you mark objectives, the base on a Buggy is large enough to practically keep any other unit from entering 3", of you plop it dead center on a flag, or some such.
In which way would the KBB contribute more than the Snazz, were it sitting on an Objective? I already ran MEQ math out above, and it barely ekes out the Snazz, except in instances where the enemy is already within 8". If you got it guarding an Objective, your opponent would be pretty idiotic to just walk their units within 8" and let you beat on them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I got off point, but that is: the Snazz and the KBB fulfill different roles in your army. To me, the Snazz is designed to be a durable nuisance that blocks paths of fire and travel to your opponent, while the KBB is designed to get in close and wipe out chaff and other low T units. They don't really equate well to each other.
Love 30 point koptaz wtf.
I mean they can use ramming speed can be useful, can be buffed vs fly with +1 to hit.
They can free deep strike.
They habe 2d3 str 5 attacks
They have 4 wounds
OH and they fly OH and 6 str 5 shots each 36 "
Wy the hell someone use a bike now?
Gruxz wrote: I don't know if I missed something. But I listened to some dude reading the fw section.
The chinork warkopta dropped to 74 points?
Killtank 365
Squiggoth(regular) dropped to 160
They added the warboss on warbike for 95
If these were already in play, nevermind I'm no fw gamer
If this is legit zhardsnark for 95 is decent...
I’m still hopeful it’s ghaz as the new PA6 model.... and the Mek w Kff is either the old model or another new model.
The freakin title of the book is the beast!!! This means he’s finally ascended into prime ork status. If it’s not a new ghaz model I’ll be shocked...
I think a viable competitive list can be made w evil suns and freebooters.
Zhardsnark
Wartrike
2x shock jump dragster
2x deff dread teleport bomb
Weird boy
2-3 boy units
2-3 grot units
2-3 Flashgit units
6+ smasha guns
Big Mek kff Badrukk
Gruxz wrote: I don't know if I missed something. But I listened to some dude reading the fw section.
The chinork warkopta dropped to 74 points?
Killtank 365
Squiggoth(regular) dropped to 160
They added the warboss on warbike for 95
If these were already in play, nevermind I'm no fw gamer
If this is legit zhardsnark for 95 is decent...
No zhadsnark is still the same. He read was reading the list from fw and literally said warboss on warbike. Zhad was like 10 units before that.
That seems like a new entry to me, like the bm kff
Gruxz wrote: I don't know if I missed something. But I listened to some dude reading the fw section.
The chinork warkopta dropped to 74 points?
Killtank 365
Squiggoth(regular) dropped to 160
They added the warboss on warbike for 95
If these were already in play, nevermind I'm no fw gamer
If this is legit zhardsnark for 95 is decent...
No zhadsnark is still the same. He read was reading the list from fw and literally said warboss on warbike. Zhad was like 10 units before that.
That seems like a new entry to me, like the bm kff
To be fair zhards model is easily used as a warboss on bike so it would be a nice bone to give orks. Especially since the 2 bigger loses to the index is big mek w kff and warboss on bike.
Gruxz wrote: I don't know if I missed something. But I listened to some dude reading the fw section.
The chinork warkopta dropped to 74 points?
Killtank 365
Squiggoth(regular) dropped to 160
They added the warboss on warbike for 95
If these were already in play, nevermind I'm no fw gamer
If this is legit zhardsnark for 95 is decent...
No zhadsnark is still the same. He read was reading the list from fw and literally said warboss on warbike. Zhad was like 10 units before that.
That seems like a new entry to me, like the bm kff
That is very good news for us - it means that the Biker Warboss won't be going to legends and any tournament which allows leviathan dreads will also have to allow the warboss on warbike.
Gruxz wrote: I don't know if I missed something. But I listened to some dude reading the fw section.
The chinork warkopta dropped to 74 points?
Killtank 365
Squiggoth(regular) dropped to 160
They added the warboss on warbike for 95
If these were already in play, nevermind I'm no fw gamer
If this is legit zhardsnark for 95 is decent...
I’m still hopeful it’s ghaz as the new PA6 model.... and the Mek w Kff is either the old model or another new model.
The freakin title of the book is the beast!!! This means he’s finally ascended into prime ork status. If it’s not a new ghaz model I’ll be shocked...
I think a viable competitive list can be made w evil suns and freebooters.
Zhardsnark
Wartrike
2x shock jump dragster
2x deff dread teleport bomb
Weird boy
2-3 boy units
2-3 grot units
2-3 Flashgit units
6+ smasha guns
Big Mek kff Badrukk
Ghaz is literally referred to as the Beast by Orks and man too.
I've mentioned this before but in my head canon Ghaz actually conquers the galaxy in our current timeline then is sent back in time by our lads Gork and Mork to find more fights. He gets sent to post Heresy pre 40k setting (35k?) and becomes the Beast of the books as we know them. Thus becoming responsible for our klans as they are now. So Ghaz & the Beast are one and the same.
Not sure on the competitive viability of the ES list. Buggies doe very quickly.
E - keeping our boss on bike and KFF Mek is bloody great news. That is just the bone we needed. On the Stompa - of course GW don't want us to take it, it's not expensive enough a kit.
Already had a chance to play with the new points changes. I experimented with shokkjump dragstas, kmb deff dreads, and flash gitz. The game isn't much to write home about, it only ended up being 2 rounds because something came up and we had to cancel it early. I don't have the list on me but it was basically deathskulls brigade with 3 SAG's, 3 dragstas, 3 KMB dreads, and gretchin and kommandos to fill the other slots. I had a freeboota battalion as well which was basically badrukk, weirdboy, gretchin, and flash gitz in a trukk.
Deathskulls shokkjump dragstas were good, being able to run 3 did actually feel worth while and I was able to capitalise on their mobility. I had smasha guns too, the 2 point nerf didn't really change much list building wise given all the other cuts. The kmb deff dreads were good too but I think they stepped on the toes of the dragstas, I think swapping the deff dreads out scrapjets would of benefited my list a bit more and been lil cheaper.
The flash gitz worked well for me and the 60 point drop effectively paid for their trukk. It felt a lot less of a risk having to take flash gits because their total cost was sitting around 300 vs starting off at 300 for 10. A full mob of 10 flash gitz is actually slightly cheaper than a full mob of lootas. I think there is merit to that. Lootas have the potential to land more shots via spamming CP but they really depend on the CP to yield consistent result. Flash gitz won't have that same high ceiling of getting 60 shots a turn but they will always yield 30 shots without any use of CP. Having them be cheaper makes it feel more like there's a choice to be made between the two in my opinion.
With the point cuts I was able to do a deathskulls brigade + freeboota battalion and still have a variety of toys. I ended up with 150 more points then I would have prior to CA19. Given the point costs I was basically able to run an extra buggy(or dread) and a trukk, with a lot of CP to support my souped up shokk attack gun.
I think with units like buggies, redundancy is really important and the points drops are enabling that.
Next up I'm unironically considering a killa kan centric list. Loaded with big shootas you're basically paying 7 points per t5 sv3+ wound, which doesn't sound so bad. The morale is a huge issue but orks can work around that. I think they could have a lot of value in just being an obnoxious roadblock where their purpose won't be to kill things but to just swamp objectives or tie up units. The points drop will also mean that taking characters to support the kans will sting a lot less, if I run 18 kans I'll now have 180 extra points which could go into their character support.
Hmm, Deffkoptas at 30pts seem pretty ok now (better than Warbikers at 23, right?. Although I've never run them with twin big shootas, I guess they would be mostly used to grab objectives and tie up enemy vehicles, so damage output is not a priority. Any thoughts on this?
You can do a bunch of silly things with them, as they are flying speed freek vehicle - they qualify for a lot of stratagems.
For example, you can give them +1 to hit against other flyers, protect them with exhaust cloud or charge them into combat with ramming speed.
At 44 for dual rokkits, they might just be cheap enough to field again.
Jidmah wrote: You can do a bunch of silly things with them, as they are flying speed freek vehicle - they qualify for a lot of stratagems.
For example, you can give them +1 to hit against other flyers, protect them with exhaust cloud or charge them into combat with ramming speed.
At 44 for dual rokkits, they might just be cheap enough to field again.
Is it confirmed we are losing the KMB option?
29 points for a KMB Kopta sounds incredible, especially as a Deathskull.
KMB option was index only and all index stuff is Legacy when that becomes a thing. So for the short time being, its still legal to KMB Kopta, but i think Legacy goes into effect when CA19 drops. I think, anyway.
But yeah, i dont see why bikers exist right now.
Koptas are 30pts w/ twinbigs. Seeing as how Koptas have lower model max, cant really compare max vs max. Max koptas is 5 models, so 150pts for 5 T5, 4W models with 4+ save and 10D3 S4 attacks in melee, with the option for Killsaws (not sure if i'd bother with that or not). They are Vehicles so Ramming Speed, innate psuedo-deepstrike (14" of boardedge limitation), and still can use Exhaust Clouds. Theres also the added benefit of while the gun is the same RoF and strength it has twice the range, so unlike bikers they can actually AVOID the things that instaspork them. 5 Warbikers by comparison is only 115pts but half the wounds, no deepstrike, no ramming speed, only the Nob can take klaw instead of any of them (granted, its stronger, but this unit shouldnt go after things only a klaw can reliably hurt anyway), and only 12 S4 attacks + 4 S5 attacks (w/ no klaw).
Koptas at that price feels like a nice backfield anti-deepstrike deterrent, with the speed and Fly allowing them to immediately jump to the front line if needed. They still hate autocannons, but it takes 2 hits to kill them instead of 1, and for a 7pt difference...that matters a lot to me. Might be time to finally finish painting my gakton of AOBR koptas. Think i have 14 of them and only 4 are in playable condition, 3 painted lol
edit: Also Koptas auto-advance 6, something i really dont understand why bikers dont get. That urks me so much when i use my bikers that i need to advance them and i roll a zoggin' 1...
642 points I think? Probably still not worth it (Meks losing the KMB makes them the suck...), but kind of nutty, that's 15 CP w/ Battleforge right there.
Can easily upgrade the weirdboys to SAGs at 18 points a pop, too, as 3 weirdboys is probably too much anyway.
Not really sure i'd say the Mek sucks now that they lack KMBs
KMSs are only half range, but otherwise identical. Theyre character protected so not like its difficult to get them in range anyway. I usually have one in my nauts with an Oiler, that 2hp heal sometimes makes the difference in a game for me and i rarely need more than 12" anyway, since the gork dropped in within 9" regardless.
I would probably shift one to a small Kommando squad though for some T3-4 objective annoyance. Ive had unusual luck with that.
Vineheart01 wrote: Not really sure i'd say the Mek sucks now that they lack KMBs
KMSs are only half range, but otherwise identical. Theyre character protected so not like its difficult to get them in range anyway. I usually have one in my nauts with an Oiler, that 2hp heal sometimes makes the difference in a game for me and i rarely need more than 12" anyway, since the gork dropped in within 9" regardless.
I would probably shift one to a small Kommando squad though for some T3-4 objective annoyance. Ive had unusual luck with that.
Fair enough. I’ve typically slogged mine. Having a 29” threat range has been invaluable; pistol range is harder. I can’t even space out to prevent charges.
Shame kommandos are losing their big shoota options too. The MSU w/ ObSec seems decent enough.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Man, Kommando's utility is way worse in codex vs index eh?
1) Nob is locked into a power klaw. *zero* upgrade options. Meaning you probably aren't taking one, so they are LD6.
2) No longer able to take any kind of proper ranged shooting
It seems like they are best w/ ObSec, meaning Deathskullz, which makes that infiltrate -> charge unreliable even with 'Ere we go.
If Kommandos could take Shootas, I might use them all of the time. They'd be such an annoying little unit. For 15 extra points (max unit) over a regular boy squad, I get a unit of boys can deep strikes instead of using Da Jump or 2 CP. If I could plink them in cover, they get a 4+ armour save. Not bad for an 8 point Boy.
I'm not sure putting a Gorkanaut for 2000p, I think i have no dakka, I might take some lootas and gretch, but not sure, maybe a dakkajet, opinions?
Wait for ork PA, I have 3 gorkanauts, have tested them extensively, and I can tell you they are not good in the current meta. I was hoping they would lose at least 20 points. Knights underperform currently, for the exact same reasons. you don’t want, for now, to add a gorkanaut.
I am certain that in 2020, at some point, there will be a time. Either through a PA strat, or just by a shift in the meta.
Wait for ork PA, I have 3 gorkanauts, have tested them extensively, and I can tell you they are not good in the current meta. I was hoping they would lose at least 20 points. Knights underperform currently, for the exact same reasons. you don’t want, for now, to add a gorkanaut.
I am certain that in 2020, at some point, there will be a time. Either through a PA strat, or just by a shift in the meta.
You know, I wonder if in a buggy spam / mechanized list, Gorks / Morks might actually become a hair better. I think in the person's list above, yeah, adding a Gork/Mork would probably be a waste of time, unless it was a casual environment.
But I could see them doing well, as they tend to scare people (without being that threatening, really). But in reality, it might just be better to field 3-4 extra buggies instead.
Kult of Speed is mainly for 2D6" consolidation and the doublemovement advance. Which buggies and koptas kinda dont care for. They are mostly gun platforms and have the speed to reach a vast majority of targets w/o the extra speed, and of the Speedfreaks only bikers care about the consolidation thing.
flandarz wrote: I think our Buggies are REAL good now. Even if just for durability, 80pts for T6 W8 Sv4+ ain't bad.
I just own a Megatrakk and that thing has done *work* in my games. I just don't really play against the craziest BS out there.
I guess you could legitmately field something like 9 buggies for ~900 points now? I suppose that could be extremely annoying and even have quite a bit of firepower. It could also provide roadblockers to some of our more fragile units.
I have 3 Scrapjets, I would gladly give up the Big shootas if it dropped the price 20pts. At that point value I might take them in competitive events, but as it stands, the 20pt tax for bigshootas just kills the unit's value. The fact that yet another year has come and gone and GW still can't figure out that the Big shoota is useless and that Rokkitz are overpriced is mind boggling, not to mention the 800pt Stompa....that is just a slap in the face, a 50 pt drop on the Stompa means that GW figured the Stompa was only about 5% over priced for what it brings to the table, let that sink in. Nobody takes the Stompa AT ALL in games unless its super fluffy because its a Massive piece of crap and GW goes "What if we dropped its price by 5% how about then?" You can tell me all day and night about how smart GW is with design and rules and playtesting but the fact is that they have released so many obvious bombs over the years that its not believable.
Vineheart01 wrote: KMB option was index only and all index stuff is Legacy when that becomes a thing.
So for the short time being, its still legal to KMB Kopta, but i think Legacy goes into effect when CA19 drops. I think, anyway.
But yeah, i dont see why bikers exist right now.
Koptas are 30pts w/ twinbigs. Seeing as how Koptas have lower model max, cant really compare max vs max.
Max koptas is 5 models, so 150pts for 5 T5, 4W models with 4+ save and 10D3 S4 attacks in melee, with the option for Killsaws (not sure if i'd bother with that or not). They are Vehicles so Ramming Speed, innate psuedo-deepstrike (14" of boardedge limitation), and still can use Exhaust Clouds. Theres also the added benefit of while the gun is the same RoF and strength it has twice the range, so unlike bikers they can actually AVOID the things that instaspork them.
5 Warbikers by comparison is only 115pts but half the wounds, no deepstrike, no ramming speed, only the Nob can take klaw instead of any of them (granted, its stronger, but this unit shouldnt go after things only a klaw can reliably hurt anyway), and only 12 S4 attacks + 4 S5 attacks (w/ no klaw).
Koptas at that price feels like a nice backfield anti-deepstrike deterrent, with the speed and Fly allowing them to immediately jump to the front line if needed. They still hate autocannons, but it takes 2 hits to kill them instead of 1, and for a 7pt difference...that matters a lot to me.
Might be time to finally finish painting my gakton of AOBR koptas. Think i have 14 of them and only 4 are in playable condition, 3 painted lol
edit: Also Koptas auto-advance 6, something i really dont understand why bikers dont get. That urks me so much when i use my bikers that i need to advance them and i roll a zoggin' 1...
Koptaz are Max 10 not 5
And melee they have str 5 attacks not str 4
And well they fly so they Cann fallback and shoot
And a 10 model squat koptaz with warpath gain 10d3 attacks extra so 30d3 str 5.
Bikers are obsolet now totaly
And don't forget they have pistols too
Deffkoptas are not a 10max squad, the codex says max of 5.
You are right they are Str5 though, i forget their spinnin' blades is +1 str.
Warpath is a decent option to eek more attacks out of them but given the range between the two (since weirdboyz are slow and usually dont even get halfway across the board before dying) i wouldnt expect that to happen very often.
Bikers are useful for tying up enemy models T1 with a 100% chance of success, plus they are durable enough to stay there for multiple turns as non-combat experts lack the means to get past 2W/T5/4+.
They basically fit the same role as storm boyz, but require at least 3 CP to do so.
T1nk4bell wrote: Aw you're right 5 max dunno where I was.
Ye totaly but same for biker and warpath.
I rly think there is no point to use bikers
Nobs w/ Big Choppa, Choppa on warbike are now 38 points. That probably hits quite a bit harder than the deff kopta (no infiltrate for free, though...). Maybe there's some way you could make that work? 3 str 7, ap -1, D2 attacks + 1 str 5 attack (and they still have 6 Big Shoota Shots). Averages same number of attacks. I'm not sure that's worth 8 points, though.
The regular warbiker really seems obsolete, though. It's a bit crazy they didn't adjust them down. You're getting the Deff kopta at 7.5 points per wound vs 11.5 for the warbiker, and the deff kopta infiltrates and averages 1 more attack per round at a higher strength. And they fly so they can skirt screens.
SemperMortis wrote:
I have 3 Scrapjets, I would gladly give up the Big shootas if it dropped the price 20pts. At that point value I might take them in competitive events, but as it stands, the 20pt tax for bigshootas just kills the unit's value. The fact that yet another year has come and gone and GW still can't figure out that the Big shoota is useless and that Rokkitz are overpriced is mind boggling, not to mention the 800pt Stompa....that is just a slap in the face, a 50 pt drop on the Stompa means that GW figured the Stompa was only about 5% over priced for what it brings to the table, let that sink in. Nobody takes the Stompa AT ALL in games unless its super fluffy because its a Massive piece of crap and GW goes "What if we dropped its price by 5% how about then?" You can tell me all day and night about how smart GW is with design and rules and playtesting but the fact is that they have released so many obvious bombs over the years that its not believable.
At least 6 of the shots hits at BS4. But yeah, I agree. Big Shootas are overcosted and it feels bad to take them. They either need ap-1 to help, become cheaper, or get even *more* shots. Apparently none of that is happening.
There something im missing that makes bikers more likely than koptas to get a T1 charge? Koptas have auto 6" advance, bikers dont, and the Wartrike aura affects them both. What other factor is there? They both move 14" and have 'ere we go. In fact the Koptas could get there faster because of Ramming Speed making a 10-12" charge pretty reliable
The only downside to koptas is heavy hitting attacks will hurt them harder than the bikers, since any individual attack can only kill 1 model. But outside dedicated melee thats usually limited to the stuff firing at our tanks, walkers, and now buggies.
As for bigshootas, GW probably feels theyre balanced because of their counterpart, Heavy Bolters, are 10pts and are Heavy with Ap1, same otherwise. In a vacuum, a 5pt drop for losing the AP and gaining Assault is worth it. Except in reality the bigshoota is also half as likely (roughly) to hit so....that cost is negated because we need to take more of it to get the same number of wounds on average, ending up in actually costing significantly more. The vehicles i run usually have multiple bigshootas either by default or wtf else am i gonna do with 15-20pts anyway. Its gotten to the point with me where whenever i fire my naut's bigshootas i go "And heres the waste of time shots....yup they mostly missed...3 wounds ap- oh you passed them cool moving on.." i swear they only cause damage every like 5 times i fire them, and even then its only 1-2 wounds Bigshootas desperately need to be 2pts or 6shots or get an AP, but sadly doesnt look like thats ever gonna happen now.
Oguhmek wrote: They're running out of space marines to pit against them, so Necrons will probably be left out, just like in the Vigilus campaign.
Or, no I know, they'll be pitted against Imperial Knights, who will get an awesome new knight variant with psychic powers, and the Necrons will get... uh, a one-use relic with a 4+ chance to deny the witch, or something.
Anyway, it would be weird if orks got anything else than a plastic Weirdboy IMO, given the theme and all, but then on the other hand, Ghazzy hears the voices of Gork and Mork so there is some connection there too, so those rumors (which I always thought were wishlisting) might have some truth to them. Too bad he's locked into Goffs. This with the klans is nice and all, but it kinda annoys me that special characters are always locked in to one specific subfaction.
Despite being called psychic awakening it's not all that psychic stuff. Eldars had nothing psychic related, black templars aren't psyker thing, most of chaos rules weren't psychic related..
Evil sun Deff Koptas have an *insane* charge threat range if you have a wartrike nearby, and crazy even if you don't. Good lord.
16" move, 7 advance (from FAQ they get the plus 1) w/ Wartrike, and then a 11.5 average charge with rerolls with Ramming Speed. You can probably make that 12. Means a 35" charge is probable... and they fly.
Even if they don't have a wartrike, that's still a 27.5 average charge range (round up to 28 since that's likely with rerolls). Impressive. Take even 3 or so for 90 points, seems well worth it?
Deffkoptas - I love these bastards for about a year already and now they become really funny. You say 35” charge turn 1? You are wrong. You can make them Kult of Speed via vigilus and they have 16+16 move and charge with trike and ramming speed is 32+11,5 = 43,5” T1. And than Drive by Krumpin for 1CP and another 16” move away. And drop the index bomb on the way btw.
And maximum is not 15. Maximum is 30. Take 15 evil sunz shootas and 15 ds rokkits.. I see 2 brigades deffkopta lists on the horizont
Automatically Appended Next Post: Pure codex only kommandos is a sad story. With burnas and big shootas, it was fun to kitbash and fun to play. Codex kommandos = boyz with barets... boringů
gungo wrote: Still find it silly kommandos are losing big choppa when FW still makes the kit. Also the burna option is the only viable way to use that model.
Still keeping big mek w kff and warboss on bike is great.
I was a huge proponent of Kommandos at he start of 8th, but since last year I haven't really used them. Still brings a smile to my face though when I think about having 90 Kommandos magically appear in charge range and joined by 30 da jumped boyz. My opponent always just sat there flabbergasted as 120 Boyz just popped into being in charge range .
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tomsug wrote: Deffkoptas - I love these bastards for about a year already and now they become really funny. You say 35” charge turn 1? You are wrong. You can make them Kult of Speed via vigilus and they have 16+16 move and charge with trike and ramming speed is 32+11,5 = 43,5” T1. And than Drive by Krumpin for 1CP and another 16” move away. And drop the index bomb on the way btw.
And maximum is not 15. Maximum is 30. Take 15 evil sunz shootas and 15 ds rokkits.. I see 2 brigades deffkopta lists on the horizont
Automatically Appended Next Post: Pure codex only kommandos is a sad story. With burnas and big shootas, it was fun to kitbash and fun to play. Codex kommandos = boyz with barets... boringů
My Koptas are going to be making an appearance in the next tournament I go to. I currently only have 12 but I'll bring them all in . 360pts for 3 squads of FS units that can charge turn 1 and more importantly, drop that index bomb for extra dakka.
Tomsug wrote: Deffkoptas - I love these bastards for about a year already and now they become really funny. You say 35” charge turn 1? You are wrong. You can make them Kult of Speed via vigilus and they have 16+16 move and charge with trike and ramming speed is 32+11,5 = 43,5” T1. And than Drive by Krumpin for 1CP and another 16” move away. And drop the index bomb on the way btw.
And maximum is not 15. Maximum is 30. Take 15 evil sunz shootas and 15 ds rokkits.. I see 2 brigades deffkopta lists on the horizont
I guess you might be able to string a unit of 5 back and keep coherency? Because your wartrike is only going 23".
An Actual Englishman wrote:
Ghaz is literally referred to as the Beast by Orks and man too.
Well so was a collective of Warlords in a novel series.
Vineheart01 wrote:
Bigshootas desperately need to be 2pts or 6shots or get an AP, but sadly doesnt look like thats ever gonna happen now.
Yes and sadly yes.
tneva82 wrote:
. Eldars had nothing psychic related,
They got an entire lore to replace the crappy smite Warlocks got. plus most the casts are 4 and there is a way to turns 1s into 2s so you always cast?!? Not sure how that is nothing...
Vineheart01 wrote: There something im missing that makes bikers more likely than koptas to get a T1 charge? Koptas have auto 6" advance, bikers dont, and the Wartrike aura affects them both. What other factor is there? They both move 14" and have 'ere we go. In fact the Koptas could get there faster because of Ramming Speed making a 10-12" charge pretty reliable
You are missing the Kult of Speed detachment - you can advance 28" with that and then charge with a deffkilla or warboss within range (due to the size of biker mob, usually not a problem). With their bases and numbers, arresting a unit is a trivial matter, while koptas are just 5 round bases. I did that in my battle report to arrest a unit of intercessors and they were unable to free themselves despite having a powerfist in the unit.
They got an entire lore to replace the crappy smite Warlocks got. plus most the casts are 4 and there is a way to turns 1s into 2s so you always cast?!? Not sure how that is nothing...
Ah right. Anyway models were not psyker related so no reason orks can't get multiple non-psyker releases. Orks are unlikely to get new model outside PA book(gw doesn't do generally random model releases) and we now know for sure there's big mek w/kff incoming.
After learning the title of the PA that will cover orks and seeing what happened to nids (40 pages of BA and 9 of nids), I would not get our hopes to high.
Saga of the beast, refers to both SW and orks, but guess who is telling the tale.
I am also somehow excited to field 5 koptas for 150.
Buggies as distractions seem to be fairly priced now. A pitty warbikers are out of question.
I've mentioned this before but in my head canon Ghaz actually conquers the galaxy in our current timeline then is sent back in time by our lads Gork and Mork to find more fights. He gets sent to post Heresy pre 40k setting (35k?) and becomes the Beast of the books as we know them. Thus becoming responsible for our klans as they are now. So Ghaz & the Beast are one and the same.
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Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote: After learning the title of the PA that will cover orks and seeing what happened to nids (40 pages of BA and 9 of nids), I would not get our hopes to high.
Saga of the beast, refers to both SW and orks, but guess who is telling the tale.
I am also somehow excited to field 5 koptas for 150.
Buggies as distractions seem to be fairly priced now. A pitty warbikers are out of question.
Agreed on all points. We might get a bone thrown to us but it'll be Vigilus level stuff, perhaps one decent relic from the book and that's it.
It is a shame on warbikes too, what a waste of a CA.
CA wasn't too bad for us. One point increase (and kind of a joke increase at that, considering the Smasha is still real good at that cost), and a lot of solid decreases. Of course, there are things like the Stompa and Burnas which are just silly, but all in all we did well.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Agreed on all points. We might get a bone thrown to us but it'll be Vigilus level stuff, perhaps one decent relic from the book and that's it.
It is a shame on warbikes too, what a waste of a CA.
It's safe to assume that we will get no more than the following
- 6 Warlord Traits
- 6 Relics
- 6 Stratagems
- Build your own Waaagh!
We might get a new ork model (KFF mek/Thrakka), but we also might not, considering that there is already a rumor for primaris Logar and currently the expected amount is 1 model per PA.
If we are lucky, they'll throw in a psychic discipline, but I doubt that.
I reserve the right to ridicule anyone expecting more.
There is a slim chance that they just don't want to antagonize the people who bought the fethed up finecast model even more by invalidating that model four years later.
Automatically Appended Next Post: There is a slim chance that they just don't want to antagonize the people who bought the fethed up finecast model even more by invalidating that model four years later.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Agreed on all points. We might get a bone thrown to us but it'll be Vigilus level stuff, perhaps one decent relic from the book and that's it.
It is a shame on warbikes too, what a waste of a CA.
It's safe to assume that we will get no more than the following
- 6 Warlord Traits
- 6 Relics
- 6 Stratagems
- Build your own Waaagh!
We might get a new ork model (KFF mek/Thrakka), but we also might not, considering that there is already a rumor for primaris Logar and currently the expected amount is 1 model per PA.
If we are lucky, they'll throw in a psychic discipline, but I doubt that.
I reserve the right to ridicule anyone expecting more.
I think Mork and Gork psy disciplines will be a thing. Don't expect anything more creative.
flandarz wrote: CA wasn't too bad for us. One point increase (and kind of a joke increase at that, considering the Smasha is still real good at that cost), and a lot of solid decreases. Of course, there are things like the Stompa and Burnas which are just silly, but all in all we did well.
Well so many of our gak units will stay gak, so that is a pity. especially because our good units are still as good... So basically the whole internal balance shift opportunity which could have enabled us to change what we bring to a tourney was missed. A total missed opportunity i would say. But yes orks were not nerfed at all. Everyone who didn't want things to change can be relieved...
Vineheart01 wrote: There something im missing that makes bikers more likely than koptas to get a T1 charge?
Koptas have auto 6" advance, bikers dont, and the Wartrike aura affects them both. What other factor is there?
They both move 14" and have 'ere we go. In fact the Koptas could get there faster because of Ramming Speed making a 10-12" charge pretty reliable
You are missing the Kult of Speed detachment - you can advance 28" with that and then charge with a deffkilla or warboss within range (due to the size of biker mob, usually not a problem). With their bases and numbers, arresting a unit is a trivial matter, while koptas are just 5 round bases. I did that in my battle report to arrest a unit of intercessors and they were unable to free themselves despite having a powerfist in the unit.
That detachment is for Speed Freaks though. Deffkoptas can use it too.
Though i'll admit nowhere near as big a footprint. Especially with the extra-wide base man theyre a big footprint, almost too big to KFF properly
Overall, a lot of fun and a lot of surprise, but against the new hot 
