flandarz wrote: CA wasn't too bad for us. One point increase (and kind of a joke increase at that, considering the Smasha is still real good at that cost), and a lot of solid decreases. Of course, there are things like the Stompa and Burnas which are just silly, but all in all we did well.
Well so many of our gak units will stay gak, so that is a pity. especially because our good units are still as good... So basically the whole internal balance shift opportunity which could have enabled us to change what we bring to a tourney was missed. A total missed opportunity i would say. But yes orks were not nerfed at all. Everyone who didn't want things to change can be relieved...
IMO a lot of people here are complaining that Santa Da Red Gobbo only brought them 75% of their wish list instead of 100%.
- All buggies went down by more than most of us dared to dream - common opinion was that they were 10-15% overpriced, they wend down by 15-30%
- Flash gits were borderline competitive before and got a huge push
- Koptas, Kanz and Dreads went down my non-trivial amounts
- KFF Mek and Biker Boss were saved from legends
- Nob bikers, burnas and blitza bommer fall into the "they tried" category - drops that won't make those units great, but a buff is a buff. Also note that almost all units from the red section in the first post have been addressed.
- Gretchin stayed 3 pts
Often requested things that we didn't get
- Cheaper warbikers
- Cheaper battlewagons and trukks
- Cheaper rokkits, big shootas and PKs - A useful stompa
If you are seriously disappointed by this, I suggest dropping WH40k ASAP - there will never be a GW release that will not disappoint you, save yourself the trouble.
I agree with Jid. And the things that DID drop will certainly change up how we can build lists. I expect we'll see a lot more Buggies and Koptas being fielded. Might even see folks running Dreadz instead of a Gork (since you can field 3 of them, kitted out well, for the same price). Might even see Kanz, but that's probably not gonna happen.
In short, while our competitive lists will still have a core of Gretchin, SSAG, and Smashas, the point drops we got will likely see us fielding these cheaper options alongside them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And, to be fair, it'll take more than a point drop to fix the Stompa. I think the easiest (and Orkiest) fix would be to just remove the Wound brackets from it. Fits with the lore (Waagh keeps it running at peak efficiency until it's literally scrap), and doesn't press on any "Orkz shouldn't have good Saves" buttons.
tbh i more want the stompa to be useful because of Geargutz' Stompa model (3D print file) looks rightfully menacing, unlike the actual stompa. Even if the stompa was viable i dont think i'd use it that much mostly because of how large the dang thing is, and even at what i feel it should be priced its gonna remove a huge chunk of my army to be fielded.
Buggies dropping that much is ridiculous, atleast the main 3 we already were somewhat using. I was already considering using the KBB in almost every list if it dropped ~10pts because your Speed Freak list made me compare it to the Ironstriders from Admech and...yeah...it was about right just ever so slightly too pricy. Bam, 80pts now, so for 20pts from an Autocannon Ironstrider you get +2 shots (offset by BS), AP2 instead of AP1, slightly less range (not an issue on a fast platform), +2 wounds, and short-range deterrent weapons. That legitimately feels perfect. And thats something i never truly believe when comparing orks to nonorks lol.
Definitely not perfect. MANz and Nobs probably needed some love too. Wartrike is woefully overpriced. But overall this was a good change. It’s unlikely we’d get everything.
Based on what Xenos have been getting, PA will be nothing but disappointment. Space Wolves will get some hot gak, though.
HQs didnt get touched at all, which i find weird. Wartrike is the one buggy that DID sell thanks to its aura so they probably saw that and assumed it was fine. Not even the SAG changed, and i think a lot of us were expecting it to skyrocket thanks to the SSAG.
Which on one hand is good, SAG didnt change so no worries there, but also means bosses still blow
edit: @Tiberius501 - MANz are fine if you use them properly. Theyre mostly great for objective camping since most things sitting on an objective cant deal with 3-4 MANz, and if theyre in cover theyre a pain in the butt to get rid of via any shooting (if even visible). They are more of a bully in this edition than ever before. They used to shred vehicles without even trying, but now they barely hurt them unless massed to ridiculous levels. There are numerous competitive lists using big squads of them tellyporting in though so they can be used as something other than objective campers, but i suspect they need to be very picky on targets. Kanz suck, dont bother. I only use mine because theyre awesome looking and painted, but i feel like im wasting my time every time i field them these days so i dont do it that often
And i agree, Space Wolves need some love. They were a threat for....a month? and have been a joke every other incarnation. There are 2 wolf players in my area that refuse to bring that army out anymore, and only still have it because it does not sell at all. I hate seeing that, even if it is imperial scum, and want them to get some good buffs OUTSIDE of the stupid wolfriders (last thing we need is a repeat of Nobbikers in 5th/6th where the entire codex kinda sucks but they were so ridiculous they carried the entire army based on how lucky their saves were)
@Vineheart01, That’s good to know, I’ll probably chuck some Meganobz in my lists then to try out as they’re beast looking. And I’ll stay clear of Kanz haha.
Personally, for Orks and given that we haven't had our PA rules released yet, I think we largely got a win overall. Still sucks that wargear costs were left unaddressed, but compared to what Nids got recently from PA and CA overall, I would say we got off pretty well.
I think MANz are on the cusp of being an A tier unit, they are probably B+/ A- right now. They can take a punch, have decent chaff shooting, and 30-40 klaw attacks (add warpath) is downright scary. Park em in cover for a 1+ armour save and charge anything crazy enough to get close.
If they dropped something like 5 points, I think they'd be crazy good.
Our HQs needed some love, too. At least SAGs stayed the same awesome price. Hopefully PA will introduce new wargear / rules for our stuff. Cybork body ALONE would be massive for Warbosses... and let us take twin killsaws! That might actually be a halfway decent HQ. 5 Attacks, 3+ to hit, ap-4, wounding on 3's or 2's for 90'ish points ain't bad, especially if they got a 5+++
tulun wrote: I think MANz are on the cusp of being an A tier unit, they are probably B+/ A- right now. They can take a punch, have decent chaff shooting, and 30-40 klaw attacks (add warpath) is downright scary. Park em in cover for a 1+ armour save and charge anything crazy enough to get close.
If they dropped something like 5 points, I think they'd be crazy good.
Our HQs needed some love, too. At least SAGs stayed the same awesome price. Hopefully PA will introduce new wargear / rules for our stuff. Cybork body ALONE would be massive for Warbosses... and let us take twin killsaws! That might actually be a halfway decent HQ. 5 Attacks, 3+ to hit, ap-4, wounding on 3's or 2's for 90'ish points ain't bad, especially if they got a 5++.
Yeah, even if its a stratagem similar to the Chapter Master one that SM get, if there was a way to buff the Warboss to either be more killy or resilient (perhaps as a side effect of Ghaz being the next Beast) I would be 100% behind that. Having a different or better aura than what we currently get from a Warboss would be another interesting way of making them relevant to our army besides being a relic caddy.
I'm still unsure where you're getting "decent chaff shooting" from. Even with Kustom Shootas, they're taking out less than 1 Guardsman per model (like 0.88 or something), so even a 10 MAN unit is only gonna pop 8 of them (like 40 pts)And that's abysmal for 350 pts. The Klaws would be scarier if A) Invuln Saves weren't really common with the armies that field vehicles and B) if it wasn't dealing D3 damage. 10 MANz against a T6, 3+, 5++ vehicle are gonna deal, on average (with Warpath) 17.7 Wounds. This isn't bad, but you gotta get all 10 into CC (pretty difficult with their large bases and slow speed). I'm with Vineheart that their primary role should be holding and contesting Objectives (particularly those in cover), but they can offer a secondary role of taking out vehicles or (possibly) Elites, if you see an opportunity.
flandarz wrote: I'm still unsure where you're getting "decent chaff shooting" from. Even with Kustom Shootas, they're taking out less than 1 Guardsman per model (like 0.88 or something), so even a 10 MAN unit is only gonna pop 8 of them (like 40 pts)And that's abysmal for 350 pts. The Klaws would be scarier if A) Invuln Saves weren't really common with the armies that field vehicles and B) if it wasn't dealing D3 damage. 10 MANz against a T6, 3+, 5++ vehicle are gonna deal, on average (with Warpath) 17.7 Wounds. This isn't bad, but you gotta get all 10 into CC (pretty difficult with their large bases and slow speed). I'm with Vineheart that their primary role should be holding and contesting Objectives (particularly those in cover), but they can offer a secondary role of taking out vehicles or (possibly) Elites, if you see an opportunity.
It's the equivalent of 20 shoota boyz in output, but likely stay around many turns instead of going into the meat grinder. Hence, decent, but not good or great. I think camping something in cover, I'm just glad they have a gun at all. See: Kommandos. Clearing screens and being annoying is a good thing.
But yes, I agree. They aren't A tier, and could use a point drop, but i think they are close. Your example is also slightly disingenuous. They are wounding T8 on a 3+ too, so it scales up to the same wounds there. With AP-3, it's also hitting their invul save no matter what (2+ becomes a 5+ armour save). They can shred a Knight pretty hard, and probably kill it if it's taken a round of shooting.
20 Shoota Boyz also cost 210 pts less than 10 MANz. So, it'd be more accurate to compare them to 50 Shoota Boyz, which would take out, roughly, 20 Guardsmen, a significant improvement for the same price. They'd also have more Wounds, and more Attacks at that size, as well as being more "durable" against the relative abundance of multi-damage weapons.
And even then, Shoota Boyz aren't even that "great" at chaff clearing (possibly decent if you run them as Bad Moonz). We have far better chaff clearing options. MANz are only "decent" at chaff clearing if you compare them to units that prefer to shoot vehicles.
I concede that having a gun is far better than not having one, but I'm also gonna be realistic and say those guns probably ain't gonna do a whole lot for ya over the course of the game. For example, even if those MANz last through all 5 turns, you're only putting down 44 Guardsmen with your Kustom Shootas. That's, what, 220 pts? You never even managed to make back your unit cost.
To be fair, if someone has their Knight wide open and able to be charged (and surrounded) by all 10 MANz, then they definitely deserve to take that beating. It also bears mentioning that Knights also have the tools to pick apart MANz with relative ease.
I was pretty clear that their ability to deal damage to vehicles in CC was good. The issues I see are getting them there (I believe you still only got around a 60-70% chance to make a charge out of Da Jump, even with Evil Sunz and 'Ere We Go), and getting all 10 into CC range. Less of a problem with the latter against large vehicles, or ones you've flanked, but still something I'd rather keep in my pocket for the opportune time than bank on when building my strategy.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Basically, what I'm saying is: a MAN unit's primary goal and responsibility should be holding Objectives for you. Anything else you have them do should come secondary to that role.
flandarz wrote: 20 Shoota Boyz also cost 210 pts less than 10 MANz. So, it'd be more accurate to compare them to 50 Shoota Boyz, which would take out, roughly, 20 Guardsmen, a significant improvement for the same price. They'd also have more Wounds, and more Attacks at that size, as well as being more "durable" against the relative abundance of multi-damage weapons.
And even then, Shoota Boyz aren't even that "great" at chaff clearing (possibly decent if you run them as Bad Moonz). We have far better chaff clearing options. MANz are only "decent" at chaff clearing if you compare them to units that prefer to shoot vehicles.
I concede that having a gun is far better than not having one, but I'm also gonna be realistic and say those guns probably ain't gonna do a whole lot for ya over the course of the game. For example, even if those MANz last through all 5 turns, you're only putting down 44 Guardsmen with your Kustom Shootas. That's, what, 220 pts? You never even managed to make back your unit cost.
To be fair, if someone has their Knight wide open and able to be charged (and surrounded) by all 10 MANz, then they definitely deserve to take that beating. It also bears mentioning that Knights also have the tools to pick apart MANz with relative ease.
I was pretty clear that their ability to deal damage to vehicles in CC was good. The issues I see are getting them there (I believe you still only got around a 60-70% chance to make a charge out of Da Jump, even with Evil Sunz and 'Ere We Go), and getting all 10 into CC range. Less of a problem with the latter against large vehicles, or ones you've flanked, but still something I'd rather keep in my pocket for the opportune time than bank on when building my strategy.
I believe the stats for 9" charge with 'Ere we go is actually in the 80-85% range -- Ere we go is really good with that +1 charge bonus. But I would agree, you want to use them opportunistically for a charge like that, instead of a Da Jump suicide run ala Boyz.. They are great at holding sections of the board.
I think we basically agree, though. If I can clear 220 points of guard *while* camping an objective for 5 turns, I think that's a huge win -- grots never make back their points, but provide us value in ways other than slaughter. We go for VPs, not necessarily wipe outs. TBH, if they are suitably distracting while they leave my Mek Gunz, Buggies, Dreads alone, they've probably paid for themselves.
You sure? I feel like a 100% increase in chance is pretty high (the chance of rolling an 8+ on 2d6 is about 41%). But, to be fair, I finished high school and decided that was enough math for me, so I'll defer to you in this regard.
Vineheart01 wrote: yeah im not really sure why people are so afraid of 9" charges with orks.
I rarely fail them.
If you're NOT evil suns, ignoring for a second the individual die rolls we can do instead of both, the chance of failing the 9" is like 52% (1 - .72 * .72). Coin flip. With the individual die roll, this bumps it up a bit I think around 10%?, but even with that, super risky.
With needing only an 8, it becomes (1 - .58 * .58,) which is 67% chance of success. With individual die rolls, it becomes in the 80 range I think.
Evil suns is overwhelmingly the best slogging infantry option by miles, in a team that's supposed to want to be in vehicles. Way to go GW.
flandarz wrote:
You sure? I feel like a 100% increase in chance is pretty high (the chance of rolling an 8+ on 2d6 is about 41%). But, to be fair, I finished high school and decided that was enough math for me, so I'll defer to you in this regard.
Everything else I agree with.
I'm *fairly* certain. Someone has cranked out the math. The issue it gets a bit harder because we can keep partial results (You always keep a 4+ on the ES evil suns roll, because 50% > 41.67%).
Calculating the chance of something *not* happening compared to at least one thing happening, or exactly 1 (say, on 4 dice, what's the probability of getting at least 2 hits on a BS4) is really simple, which I always use a general rule of thumb. So, what's the chance of a 5+ re-roll to hit? Well the chance of both die rolling below a 5+ is 2/3 * 2/3, so 4/9. Because probability has to add up to 1, chance of hitting on at least one of the rolls is therefore 5/9.
My luck in that regard is broken.
Rolling 7" with 3d6? About 25% success chance.
11" charge with a bonebreaka that doesn't have 'ere we go? 90% success chance!
It's almost as if the more unlikely a charge is, the more likely I am to succeed with it.
This is the only source I found that takes into account the one or both from 'ere we go and Evil Sunz. 72.45%, so roughly 1 in 4 Charges should fail (on average).
That happens to me all the time with the SSAG. Up against a vehicle heavy list? Every Strength roll will be under 5, and shots will be 6 or less. Up against an infantry heavy list? 12 shots with 11 Strength.
This is the only source I found that takes into account the one or both from 'ere we go and Evil Sunz. 72.45%, so roughly 1 in 4 Charges should fail (on average).
On a gut check, that seems too low to me. We know the result re rolling both is 66.36% chance ( 1 - .58 squared).
On 4+ on one die, second roll is 50/50. 5+, 67%. 6, 83.33%.
Seems odd that only adds about 6%. But I can’t be bothered to do the exact math.
Well, let's see... the chances of rolling 2 through 7 (only counting double 1s through double 3s, when you'd reroll both) is 10 in 36 and the chances of rolling a 4+ on one, but a 3- on the other is 6 in 36. About a 30% chance to reroll both and a 16.7% chance to only reroll one. The chances to get the same or worse result after either is still 10 in 36 for both and 3 in 6 for just one. and . Just off high school head math, that's about a 10% chance to fail if you choose to reroll both and a 8.3% chance to fail if you only choose to reroll 1.
That's about as far as my math skills will take me. Dunno if you can handle the rest or not.
I previously mentioned the SSAG, and thought this was relevant: the Tau player I regular go up against was running 2 Riptides and I spent 4 turns doing absolutely nothing to them with the SSAG (either I'd roll low shots, I'd fail to Hit or Wound, or he'd pass his Invulns, or some combination of the above). On T5, I decide to target something else cuz I was just accustomed to doing jack diddly to them, so I went after some Fire Warriors. That's when suddenly my luck turned around and I wiped out a whole 5 FWs with my anti-tank SSAG. That was a disheartening battle.
tulun wrote: I believe the stats for 9" charge with 'Ere we go is actually in the 80-85% range -- Ere we go is really good with that +1 charge bonus. But I would agree, you want to use them opportunistically for a charge like that, instead of a Da Jump suicide run ala Boyz.. They are great at holding sections of the board.
I think we basically agree, though. If I can clear 220 points of guard *while* camping an objective for 5 turns, I think that's a huge win -- grots never make back their points, but provide us value in ways other than slaughter. We go for VPs, not necessarily wipe outs. TBH, if they are suitably distracting while they leave my Mek Gunz, Buggies, Dreads alone, they've probably paid for themselves.
9" charge with 'ere we go 58%. 8" with 'ere we go 78%.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Agreed on all points. We might get a bone thrown to us but it'll be Vigilus level stuff, perhaps one decent relic from the book and that's it.
It is a shame on warbikes too, what a waste of a CA.
It's safe to assume that we will get no more than the following
- 6 Warlord Traits
- 6 Relics
- 6 Stratagems
- Build your own Waaagh!
We might get a new ork model (KFF mek/Thrakka), but we also might not, considering that there is already a rumor for primaris Logar and currently the expected amount is 1 model per PA.
If we are lucky, they'll throw in a psychic discipline, but I doubt that.
I reserve the right to ridicule anyone expecting more.
I agree, but the thing we haven't thought of is that we might get one or more stupid OP warlord traits that make other units better. What if we got a WL trait that said KillaKanz gain +1 armor, or Warbikes can always shoot twice or etc etc. So there is still a chance that our sub par units could be addressed and given a buff. Granted, that shows more forethought than I expect of GW.
IMO a lot of people here are complaining that Santa Da Red Gobbo only brought them 75% of their wish list instead of 100%.
- All buggies went down by more than most of us dared to dream - common opinion was that they were 10-15% overpriced, they wend down by 15-30%
- Flash gits were borderline competitive before and got a huge push
- Koptas, Kanz and Dreads went down my non-trivial amounts
- KFF Mek and Biker Boss were saved from legends
- Nob bikers, burnas and blitza bommer fall into the "they tried" category - drops that won't make those units great, but a buff is a buff. Also note that almost all units from the red section in the first post have been addressed.
- Gretchin stayed 3 pts
Often requested things that we didn't get
- Cheaper warbikers
- Cheaper battlewagons and trukks
- Cheaper rokkits, big shootas and PKs - A useful stompa
If you are seriously disappointed by this, I suggest dropping WH40k ASAP - there will never be a GW release that will not disappoint you, save yourself the trouble.
I would say that a lot of the buggies were 30% over priced for what they did with some like the Scrapjet being about 15-20% over priced for what they did, in the case of the scrapjet this could have been alleviated by simply buffing Big Shootas to be worth taking, but instead we got a 10pt drop which, while nice, doesn't address the fact that its still a very....hazard choice shall we say? Its rather flimsy, its best weapon is a 2D3 Rokkit launcha and a wing missile which hits vehicles on a 4+. Honestly I think with the scrapjet GW correctly priced the Rokkitz while over charging for the Big Shootas. If the Big shootas were 2pts each the vehicle would cost 12pts less on top of the 10pt price reduction it got and I think it would be a good choice to take in a FA slot.
I think you are spot on with Flash Gitz, which sucks because I don't own any and don't want to own any lol.
I will disagree with you on the Kanz and Dreadz. Kanz are still hot garbage and dreadz are still over priced for what they can do. Compare a SM Dreadnought with a standard load out to a Dread with 2 saws and 2 klaws. Basically the same price, the SM Dread has a ranged weapon which can inflict some decent damage and has a good BS to use it.The Ork dread does not. In CC The Ork and SM hit on 3s, but here is the difference, the SM is S12 on all its attacks with -3 AP and 3 damage flat, it has 4 attacks (5 on the 1st turn), the Ork dread has 4 S10 attacks with -3 AP and 3 damage flat and 2 attacks at S9 with -2AP and 2 damage flat. And here is the kicker, how often do you see SM players taking normal dreadnoughts to tournaments? So in reality the Ork Dread is still crap.
The only other thing I will disagree with you on is the Burna's which you placed in the "They tried" catagory, i know its semantics but I refuse to give them even that level of respect. Realistically the only way I would EVER take Burnas is if they were literally cheaper then boyz. They are basically as good as boyz in every category but they aren't troops. So unless they got dirt cheap or received a MASSIVE buff I will not take them ever, even in friendly games.
I don't think dreads are crap simply of the point that they can deep strike as three.
Deffskull double kmb + 2 klaws
And ere we go and ramming speed awaible
2 kmb as deffskullz are 1 hit average and reroll wound and dmg And in meele 4 attacks with rerolls isn't to bad at all with 7,22 dmg average VS a leman russ chassi.
Overall it means after deep strike ONE dread kill a 12 wounds t8 Amor 3 chassi if the charge goes off.
And you have three of them so not that bad
I like to run my Deathskullz Dreadz with 1 Klaw, 2 Sawz, and 1 KMB. That gives it a hard-hitting ranged weapon, and it still gets 5 attacks in CC, for a fair price tag.
You mentioned the weapon load-out Semper, but how do SM Dreads and Ork Dreadz measure up in their statblock? That could make them more even, if the Dread is tougher. Also, the difference. Between S12 and S10 is really only gonna matter against T6 targets (T9 will matter against T5, but those are fairly rare from what I've seen).
Sorry Semper, but I wont go into your arguments regarding dreads in detail. I have sufficiently explained why I refuse to compare one codex to another. SM and all their fancy supplements are all but irrelevant while you get your but handed by an Eldar army. Ork units must work in the context of the ork army and not in the context of the space marine army.
Dreads already were seeing play as deff skulls with dual KMB or as evil suns melee monsters that tellyport in - even at top tables, unlike SM dreads. They were pushed out of that role by gorkanauts (which were then pushed out by tank bustas), but with a price drop they might make a comeback. If vehicle heavy lists become competitive, dreads might benefit from that, as well.
As for kanz, even with -10 points you only get a single rokkit/kmb shot out of one for 42/39 points. That simply doesn't compare well to any other shooting unit, even if you make them shoot twice with a stratagem.
In regard to burnas - I think everyone agrees that they can't be fixed by point drops, and CA simply doesn't do anything but drop points.
flandarz wrote: I like to run my Deathskullz Dreadz with 1 Klaw, 2 Sawz, and 1 KMB. That gives it a hard-hitting ranged weapon, and it still gets 5 attacks in CC, for a fair price tag.
You mentioned the weapon load-out Semper, but how do SM Dreads and Ork Dreadz measure up in their statblock? That could make them more even, if the Dread is tougher. Also, the difference. Between S12 and S10 is really only gonna matter against T6 targets (T9 will matter against T5, but those are fairly rare from what I've seen).
Stats wise the SM Dread is the same except it has better BS and Strength and leadership. Basically the Ork dread is worse then a SM equivalent, which brings me into Jidmah's comment.
You have, and while I disagree I will respect that, however I will point out that in the context of OUR codex we have really 1 useful stratagem for Dreadz, and that is tellyporta striking them. SM's have a plethora of reroll auras which allow those dreads to be a lot more reliable, they also have access to a number of ranged options which synergize well within their codex where as the dreadz are only useful for a tellyporta assault. I honestly think the Ork Dread should be BASE attacks at 4 not 2, if you fully loadout that monster with CC weapons it should be getting 8 attacks not 6. And realistically, it doesn't see top table time. It does in smaller tournaments but in major events it just doesn't show up that often.
At the end of third turn, 8-8, but I surrended cuz he had his whole army and he killed me 30 boyz, 10 tankbustas, a trukk, a battlewagon and 10 nobz...
Lost against Salamanders...
30 boyz jumped into a pack of intercessors and a boss, and they didn't even kill them.
My tankbustas oneshoted (32 damage) his tank, but anyways, he was able to burn all ma team.
My nobs fought against a dreadnaught and didn't killed him, instead, they were oneshoted.
Warboss with killa klaw oneshoted his warlord, but he died cuz Salamanders paid 2 CP and burned him even in CC with that stratagem...
There is any way to win Salamanders as orks? I did some charges without LOS to avoid overwatch, I think i played well but no way.
Jep the are ways but 8 think with lists like you played its more than hard to beat a good salamander list
Automatically Appended Next Post: And one thingy at the ork dreads vs sm dreads.
Wich sm dread are so freaking cheap?
I mean 45 without weapons that's 85 in minimum load out
And 93 with double kmb double klaw
I mean a normal dread sm with auto cannon ( hitting on 4+ after move) and a storm bolter + meele weapon are 104.
And the main factor we can deepstrike 3 at once
And they have ere we go and ramming speed awaible
Dreads are cheap enough now where i may finally paint/fully assemble my other 3 sitting around my shelves lol. 6 deffdreadz
edit: Hey, an ork character in blackstone fortress! Skarburn Zapdakka. That explains why flashgitz got buffed, they probably want us to wanna buy this guy and he only likes other flash gitz or something. No idea what his 40k counterpart rules are yet but blackstone fortress stuff seems to always get 40k equiv rules...even the ambull did
Jidmah wrote: There is a slim chance that they just don't want to antagonize the people who bought the fethed up finecast model even more by invalidating that model four years later.
Automatically Appended Next Post: There is a slim chance that they just don't want to antagonize the people who bought the fethed up finecast model even more by invalidating that model four years later.
what about the people that boughtthe crappy finecast model so they could run ghazghkull next to the mega armor warboss....
MABoss technically never had a model. It was only Ghaz. They could have easily just stuck a new head in there and it would have been fine though.
My question about the new Mek with KFF is does he have any wargear options, or did they do another static loadout bullcrap because technically the original model has a choppa (wrench with an edge) and no variations? Mine is kitbashed to have a KMB....
I think the problem with deff dreads is they never do as much as you think.
A single dread ES dread with 6 attacks hits 4, wounds 3.75ish times and the unit they smack still gets an armour save a good chunk of the time. You’ll be lucky to get 2 unsaved rolls through on a real target you want dead.
The Deathskull one seems a bit better, getting closer to 5 wounds on average. But since you can only use ramming speed on a single dread, multiple aren’t so good on the tellyporta under them because of less consistent charges.
I think the slogging version with 1 KMB, klaw, 2x saw might find a place in a mechanized list under death skulls, with maybe one as DS bomb ( or a second that is there to contest / threaten but doesn’t necessarily make the charge). 89 points for that kit seems decent. But you can also get buggies now for that price...
Have people tried like 4x KMB badmoons? You get a KMB at 20 points each under that platform. About as cheap as we can get them .
81 points for that seems good?
masterhobo wrote: Is putting a skorcha on my melee deff dread a good idea? I am using a snakebite army.
It used to be in old editions, but given how expensive skorchas are and their short range, you'll never realistically use it in most games, since when you deep strike you'll be out of the 8" range and if you footslog it, you're extremely likely to be shot down first. At best you get to use it once per game before they get stuck in or their only nearby target is dead. You always want to go either all CCW if you're any Klan other than BM or Deffskullz.
overall pretty happy. I do think a few things are still overcosted and somebody needs to be kicked in the shins for keeping the Stompa so high in points. PK's imo should have gone down ar well, mayeb not to SM levels as nobz have more attacks and +1 str but its also our best option vs high armor.
I am happy with the buggies and will likely grab a few more. I have 1-3 of each but need to get to makign some custom 3d printed parts for them, I hate having any 2 ork models look alike and there is not enough options in any buggy kit to make enough of a difference.
on Nob bikers I hope they are ok again,. I have 30+ nob bikers and another ~100 biker boyz and would love to be able to throw them down as a biker mob without being blown off the table almost immediately.
I hate to say it, but I don't think a 5pt drop is gonna be much help for Biker Nobz. In the current meta, they're practically just as durable as Biker Boyz, but cost ya 10 more ppm. Probably needed to drop another 4-6 to be "on the level".
flandarz wrote: I hate to say it, but I don't think a 5pt drop is gonna be much help for Biker Nobz. In the current meta, they're practically just as durable as Biker Boyz, but cost ya 10 more ppm. Probably needed to drop another 4-6 to be "on the level".
I don't need meta leading tournament placing list out of my nob bikers... just liek set em in for a casual narrative game and not feel liek I am horribly overpowered by another casual list. I am basically a fluff bunny player fun scenarios and look forward to playing the new narrative stuff in chapter approved a lot.
Bikernobz make even less sense than warbikers compared to deffkoptas.
Same strength, on average same attacks (4 w/ choppa vs 2d3 spinnin' blades), same speed, same save, 1 less wound, no fly, and more expensive...? Wat?
Literally all they have going for them is access to Nob weapons on the entire squad. Uh...not exactly a very enticing option.
Because the only two ways nobz kill things is PKs or Bigchoppas.
Both of which need high numbers to be of use, and on a biker platform thats expensive as gak.
I will admit, the idea of running a handful of nobbikers with bigchoppas is alluring since bigchoppas do hurt pretty dang hard, but ... ugh that base price tag...
Bikers need their Exhaust Clouds rule back to be of use again. Its either that or make them so cheap theyre cheesy.
Have people tried like 4x KMB badmoons? You get a KMB at 20 points each under that platform. About as cheap as we can get them .
81 points for that seems good?
I run something pretty similar: 2 dreads (3rd under construction still) with 3x KMB + 1x saw, so 82 points for the whole platform. Without the saw, it's completely useless in close combat, and I would argue that little bit of strategic flexibility is worth it.
I use them as Deff Skullz. I find 1 reroll is typically enough to avoid aggressive self-injury, and being able to reroll that d6 for damage is just too good for me to give up. They have performed very well for me even before the points drop. They obliterate light vehicles, and routinely put the hurt on priority targets like Knights as well. Getting two wounds to go through from each is pretty routine. They are beefy enough that real anti-armor weapons are needed if your opponent wants to take down quickly, which means that if they do get targeted they are taking heat off my Morkanaut, transports, and buggies. You march them forward as a metal wall, intimidating AF. Once you're close, you have the option to charge in to finish off a vehicle or eat overwatch for a warboss.
I was skeptical when I first started including them, but they quickly became some of my favorite units.
i thought about doing that but at 91pts it felt overpriced to completely axe its melee potential to do that
But at 81pts, that feels a bit more plausible. At that point you might as well treat it like a slightly tougher but slower buggy, since its a mid-ranged 8w vehicle...just T7 3+ instead of T6 4+
I really need to get the other 3 dreads i got built and magnetized this time around...
I felt the saw was fine. I rarely actually WANT him in CC, he's always going to get more mileage zapping people from afar. Going cheap for flexibility felt better than paying more for expertise.
Vineheart01 wrote: MABoss technically never had a model. It was only Ghaz.
They could have easily just stuck a new head in there and it would have been fine though.
My question about the new Mek with KFF is does he have any wargear options, or did they do another static loadout bullcrap because technically the original model has a choppa (wrench with an edge) and no variations? Mine is kitbashed to have a KMB....
There used to be three metal big meks, one with KFF, one with SAG and one with KMB. I actually have the latst one lying around somewhere, but it never saw play for obvious reasons.
Jidmah wrote: There is a slim chance that they just don't want to antagonize the people who bought the fethed up finecast model even more by invalidating that model four years later.
Automatically Appended Next Post: There is a slim chance that they just don't want to antagonize the people who bought the fethed up finecast model even more by invalidating that model four years later.
what about the people that boughtthe crappy finecast model so they could run ghazghkull next to the mega armor warboss....
While the Thrakka model is regular finecast-bad, the KFF was exceptionally so, since the bagpack wasn't compatible with the material and all the bulbs on it just bent down. I checked multiple stores at that time, and without any exageration I can tell that I have checked 21 KFF Big Meks across five stores (all of their stock) which were so bad out of shape that they weren't even in the "I can fix that with some green stuff" category anymore. I gave up and started hunting metal meks on ebay afterwards.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On the dread, I feel like the one saw is definitely worth it, since you usually want to threaten vehicles with your KMB and can finish them off with a charge. It also makes them more threatening against 3W units like destroyers, harlequin bikes or gravis armor units, though your really don't want to charge one into agressors - it's to easy too forget that they have power fists on top of their million of bolter shots.
IMO 2 KMB is the sweet spot for a deff skulls dread, since you can still benefit from your re-roll if one of them hits. More cause you to take too many mortal wounds, and make the dread too weak on the charge. Otherwise the 3+1 setup has been working best for me, as all the other guns suck.
Best unit size seems to be 2, you'll rarely find enough space
Four KMB turns the dread into a pure shooting unit, which compares badly to KMK, tank bustas, lootas or buggies. KMB simply aren't that great without the tripple re-rolls.
As for nob bikers - they suffer from the same problem as nobz, which is nob weapons not having enough impact. A unit with killsaws which can charge turn 1 for 1+2CP. For 250 points, they deal 10 damage to a vehicle or kill 6 primaris, neither which is bad, but also not worth writing home about.
flandarz wrote: I hate to say it, but I don't think a 5pt drop is gonna be much help for Biker Nobz. In the current meta, they're practically just as durable as Biker Boyz, but cost ya 10 more ppm. Probably needed to drop another 4-6 to be "on the level".
10 less would have made them on par with koptas. Sadly...
Biker boyz would have needed like an 6 point decrease at least.
Oh well, at least like it was said Deff skull dreads with triple kmB and a cc weapon is now quite good. That and gitz and some of the buggies enable lists with low model count. It’s gonna look real good too
Bikers need a dataslate upgrade more than a points change.
They SHOULD be -1 to hit by default because of exhaust clouds but GW decided to turn a base rule (which was the main reason for the unit to exist mind you) into a stratagem for some fething reason.
Even if they redid the strat to exclude them so they cant do -2 to hit, they should still have it by default. That would drastically offset the difference between them and koptas.
Koptas have better range and more wounds but are easier to hit.
flandarz wrote: I hate to say it, but I don't think a 5pt drop is gonna be much help for Biker Nobz. In the current meta, they're practically just as durable as Biker Boyz, but cost ya 10 more ppm. Probably needed to drop another 4-6 to be "on the level".
10 less would have made them on par with koptas. Sadly...
Biker boyz would have needed like an 6 point decrease at least.
Oh well, at least like it was said Deff skull dreads with triple kmB and a cc weapon is now quite good. That and gitz and some of the buggies enable lists with low model count. It’s gonna look real good too
I honestly think several buggies and Flash Gitz will go into the “green” tier list. The drops have made them likely competitive. Deff dread setup with 2-3 guns is probably a bump as well. Ork stuff seems to often be fine rules wise but not properly pointed.
I am really curious if we will start seeing buggy heavy mechanized lists with no boys. I think as long as marines dominate, boys are in a bad place.
flandarz wrote: I hate to say it, but I don't think a 5pt drop is gonna be much help for Biker Nobz. In the current meta, they're practically just as durable as Biker Boyz, but cost ya 10 more ppm. Probably needed to drop another 4-6 to be "on the level".
10 less would have made them on par with koptas. Sadly...
Biker boyz would have needed like an 6 point decrease at least.
Oh well, at least like it was said Deff skull dreads with triple kmB and a cc weapon is now quite good. That and gitz and some of the buggies enable lists with low model count. It’s gonna look real good too
I honestly think several buggies and Flash Gitz will go into the “green” tier list. The drops have made them likely competitive. Deff dread setup with 2-3 guns is probably a bump as well. Ork stuff seems to often be fine rules wise but not properly pointed.
I am really curious if we will start seeing buggy heavy mechanized lists with no boys. I think as long as marines dominate, boys are in a bad place.
I was making a list like that before the points drops because I was designing a fluffy/fun list that was supposed to mimick a Mad Max style. This also happened with my Daemons of Slaanesh... where I got them painted, no one played them... then BAM, new release and I look like a trendy hipster. lol
Jokes aside, I'm excited that my army will be able to fit more buggies/mech in!
I think all the buggies are quite good with the points drop... except the Squigbuggy still. I still think it just doesn't fit any particular role well? Unless I am missing something? The Snazzwagon is good anti-infantry but it's also good for running up and ramming things and exploding semi-on purpose to do some damage. KBB is a better version of that minus the suicidal tendency. Obviously the Scrapjet and Shokkjump were already good and just got better.
I want to pick it up because it's a cool model... I'm just not sure.
I am really curious if we will start seeing buggy heavy mechanized lists with no boys. I think as long as marines dominate, boys are in a bad place.
I don't think it will replace boyz. I think part of why heavy mech is possible is that boyz are such a strong foundation - relatively cheap, fantastic anti-infantry, hard to shift, and a great source of CP. What we've been missing, I feel, is ways to bring down enemy armor in our post-powerklaw world. A whole mess of buggies and walkers equipped with KMBs is the solution I've been looking for. But I still have at least 60 boyz on the table.
So since the normal Big Mek entry got moved to legends, and the Chapter Approved lists a Big Mek specifically with a Kustom Force Field (like the SAG) — I'm going to hope we'll be getting a new Big Mek with Kustom Force Field model with Orks Psychic Awakening. Sad to see the Mega Armor Warboss go as well — I suppose Ghazghkull's rumored new model is supposed to make up for that one too — too bad he's 3x the cost and limited to Goffs, though perhaps he'll get some changes with PA.
Interesting they bothered to update the dataslates at all, i was expecting it to just be a semi-formal "heres everything we dont want you to use anymore" statement. But they all have DakkaDakkaDakka, which was one of the issues of running index biker characters is they lacked DDD.
Still royally annoyed that this is a thing.
What i dont get is why is Bikerboss not in there? KFF Mek i agree with Jidmah its probably just them not wanting to piss people off TOO much by fething over people who bought the actual model before they decided to stop selling it since it was crapcast victimized. But theres no bikerboss model...never has been either. The FW boss is Zhadsnark, by that logic the MA Boss shouldnt go away either. ugh so confusing...
Vineheart01 wrote: Interesting they bothered to update the dataslates at all, i was expecting it to just be a semi-formal "heres everything we dont want you to use anymore" statement.
But they all have DakkaDakkaDakka, which was one of the issues of running index biker characters is they lacked DDD.
Still royally annoyed that this is a thing.
What i dont get is why is Bikerboss not in there? KFF Mek i agree with Jidmah its probably just them not wanting to piss people off TOO much by fething over people who bought the actual model before they decided to stop selling it since it was crapcast victimized.
But theres no bikerboss model...never has been either. The FW boss is Zhadsnark, by that logic the MA Boss shouldnt go away either.
ugh so confusing...
That's because the bikerboss is now added to fw in the CA. Snark en the bikerboss are now in there.
Vineheart01 wrote: Bikers need a dataslate upgrade more than a points change.
They SHOULD be -1 to hit by default because of exhaust clouds but GW decided to turn a base rule (which was the main reason for the unit to exist mind you) into a stratagem for some fething reason.
Even if they redid the strat to exclude them so they cant do -2 to hit, they should still have it by default. That would drastically offset the difference between them and koptas.
Koptas have better range and more wounds but are easier to hit.
I agree completely that Warbikers need more of a rules revision rather than just a points cut, and one idea that could be good to bring as an add-on rule for Warbikers is one that I was inspired by from Pistoliers from AoS. Call it "WAAAGH-biker Blitz" or something, where you get to shoot again with their weapons at the unit(s) you declared a charge against if you successfully pull off a charge against at least one of them, this happens right before they are moved into combat and before pile ins. So this could be an interesting way for them to clear out remaining screens before hitting home on their target hiding behind them. It also gives them a different role to that of Nob Bikerz, who should be more of a threat in CC rather than shooting. It also makes the Evil Sunz WL trait of Falling Back and Charging much more tempting if you have a bike centric list.
This could be in addition to the baseline -1 to hit, though I'm not sure if that's too much.
I think all types of Nobz need some sort of rule to make them do more when they're actually in combat, something distinct from boyz. I think they need something like "The Biggest and The Baddest": When this unit makes a successful charge, add one damage to all of its melee weapons until the end of this combat phase. If you roll a double for your charge, you add 1 AP to their melee weapons as well. This would make Nob Bikerz hit reliably hard, even with normal choppas, and make big choppas monstrously dangerous, even if it only has 1 AP. Makes it so they're good against multi-wound targets, whereas boyz are good at killing chaff and single wound units.
I am really curious if we will start seeing buggy heavy mechanized lists with no boys. I think as long as marines dominate, boys are in a bad place.
I don't think it will replace boyz. I think part of why heavy mech is possible is that boyz are such a strong foundation - relatively cheap, fantastic anti-infantry, hard to shift, and a great source of CP. What we've been missing, I feel, is ways to bring down enemy armor in our post-powerklaw world. A whole mess of buggies and walkers equipped with KMBs is the solution I've been looking for. But I still have at least 60 boyz on the table.
I don't think 210 point boy squads are cheap CP generation -- Grots do that *way* better for 30 points each.
They are fine against GEQ infantry, or even T3, but MEQ / PEQ they fall off pretty hard, and PEQ / marines are the real problem.
My experience has been they have been relatively easy to shift. Armies are not lacking killing power, and in fact, are fielding even more multishot stuff with marines running around. T-shirt saves do not last long in 8th edition.
Our armour pen is actually not that bad w/ Mek Guns, SSAG, and Tankbustas. Buggies are filling a different role for us than just pure firepower -- its also, fielded enmass, they might survive a few rounds.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also another catch from Legends:
Kommando Nobs can take Big Choppas
We can take 2 Big Shootas or rokkits
We can also get our Deff Kopta Big Bombs back for 6 points. Not sure that's worth it, but nice.
I usually do only Grots for my CP generation (well... and a SSAG and Weirdboy) because I run mechanized Orkz and I'd rather lose cheap units than expensive ones when my opponent fires up their anti-infantry guns.
Boyz should never be taken because youre after CP. 10 boyz is barely more useful than 10 grotz and more than twice the cost.
Boyz should only be used if you have a need for them that grots cannot do. Generally in filling multiple trukks/wagons in shoota boyz or DS'ing big blobs.
Yeah, exactly.
2 SAGs + 30 grots is 250 points for 5 CP. And now you can add a bunch of our great non troops.
Here's another question:
The 29 point Deff Kopta lives. Is the 1 shot KMB better than 6 big shoota shots, for a unit we generally only care about tying up anyway? I'm kind of thinking it might be.
tulun wrote: Yeah, exactly.
2 SAGs + 30 grots is 250 points for 5 CP. And now you can add a bunch of our great non troops.
Here's another question:
The 29 point Deff Kopta lives. Is the 1 shot KMB better than 6 big shoota shots, for a unit we generally only care about tying up anyway? I'm kind of thinking it might be.
Outside of Deffkskullz and maaaybe Bad Moonz, big shootas all the time. Cheaper and now that they're priced competitively, they can do their job as front line harassers.
Yeah unless theyre deffskullz utilizing KMB or Rokkits (rokkits still love the deathskull rerolls, even if they lack the damage roll) you'd be better off keeping them cheap as possible.
Badmoonz can generally get away with rokkitz too but i'd still say keep them cheap. Course i cant do that because i only have AOBR koptas lol.
....anybody else feel dirty saying the bigshoota is the better option...?
Vineheart01 wrote: Yeah unless theyre deffskullz utilizing KMB or Rokkits (rokkits still love the deathskull rerolls, even if they lack the damage roll) you'd be better off keeping them cheap as possible.
Badmoonz can generally get away with rokkitz too but i'd still say keep them cheap. Course i cant do that because i only have AOBR koptas lol.
....anybody else feel dirty saying the bigshoota is the better option...?
You're not alone, given how on almost every other platform, if I didn't have to take big shootas on it, I would take it off, its very weird to suggest one of the most suboptimal guns in our army as a choice. Such is the power of CA.
We seriously caught a break with them even making the warboss on bike a legal FW model...
The big Mek w kff and ghaz are hopefully at least 2 new models we get....
But honestly we did well with legends and even got some updated rules...
I’m still kinda annoyed the kommandos with big Choppa isn’t allow they still sell the FW model!
The only models I have that are basically gone now and can’t be repurposed (outside of 2nd edition models) are the old buggies and traks. If they make a new ghaz model I can still use the old one as a mega armor nob it’s only marginally bigger then the current mega armor nobs.
I feel like Koptas are gonna fill a "mechanized Boyz" role, of rushing up the board T1 and tying troublesome units into CC. And if so, then keeping them cheap as chips is the way to go.
gungo wrote: We seriously caught a break with them even making the warboss on bike a legal FW model...
The big Mek w kff and ghaz are hopefully at least 2 new models we get....
But honestly we did well with legends and even got some updated rules...
I’m still kinda annoyed the kommandos with big Choppa isn’t allow they still sell the FW model!
The only models I have that are basically gone now and can’t be repurposed (outside of 2nd edition models) are the old buggies and traks. If they make a new ghaz model I can still use the old one as a mega armor nob it’s only marginally bigger then the current mega armor nobs.
Kommando Nobs can take Big Choppa or Choppa now, as well as up to 2 Big SHootas / rokkits / Burnas. Check the data sheets in legends
The main Legends page says "not recommended for Matched Play" and the book itself says they "can be used for any style of play", so I expect it'd be up to the T.O. But I wouldn't bank on it. The points for these units won't be updated until 9ed, and I doubt many competitively-minded players are gonna be ok with you using them. At least not without giving them a heads-up first.
"The Warhammer 40,000 Legends page contains datasheets and additional wargear options, definitive profiles that will live on their own dedicated page, enabling you to unleash your treasured classics in open, narrative and matched play games, with full points provided to help you balance your games."
Yeah, I guess so... So if you opt into legends, you append that stuff to the existing datasheet?
I guess that's why they just added the new KFF Mek, they wanted to 100% separate these old datasheets / options from new stuff?
As with all Legends stuff, I'd suggest talking to your gaming group and/or T.O. about whether or not they're ok with using them. While most 40k players take GW recommendations as actual rules, there's plenty of reasonable folks who won't mind if you use them (as long as you ask first).
I wouldn't expect to see Legends units allowed in any official tournaments that aren't specifically for Legends matches.
At the bottom of the page:
"A word to the wise, however – these profiles will not be curated as part of the annual points review, and as such aren’t really intended for use in competitive play (unless, you know, you want to organise an event where Legends are welcome)."
gungo wrote: We seriously caught a break with them even making the warboss on bike a legal FW model...
The big Mek w kff and ghaz are hopefully at least 2 new models we get....
But honestly we did well with legends and even got some updated rules...
I’m still kinda annoyed the kommandos with big Choppa isn’t allow they still sell the FW model!
The only models I have that are basically gone now and can’t be repurposed (outside of 2nd edition models) are the old buggies and traks. If they make a new ghaz model I can still use the old one as a mega armor nob it’s only marginally bigger then the current mega armor nobs.
Kommando Nobs can take Big Choppa or Choppa now, as well as up to 2 Big SHootas / rokkits / Burnas. Check the data sheets in legends
Sorry I meant competitively and updated regularly instead of being earmarked as discontinued. While using legends are cool for the first few months it’s going to get continuously out of date rules wise. The big choppa kommando is essentially squatted.
The wargear is left, which means we can still take kmb on koptas and burna on Kommandos?
With the institution of legends, the GW index books are officially no longer a valid source for rules. Legend wargear options are on the bottom of the documents.
Anything that's neither in Legends nor in a Codex/FAQ/PA/FW index is dead and gone now. I don't think that happened for any orks things though.
tneva82 wrote: Like you can use 6 datasheets and 4 detachments outside tournaments? After all those too are organized play suggestions. Not core rules.
Both improve casual play experience though. I seriously doubt legends will be the same.
Ok, well maybe is about time than they give the kommandoz scouting. It has no sense that they can DS instead and taking away the nob alternative equipment and the burna, they are officially useless
flandarz wrote: I hate to say it, but I don't think a 5pt drop is gonna be much help for Biker Nobz. In the current meta, they're practically just as durable as Biker Boyz, but cost ya 10 more ppm. Probably needed to drop another 4-6 to be "on the level".
10 less would have made them on par with koptas. Sadly...
Biker boyz would have needed like an 6 point decrease at least.
Oh well, at least like it was said Deff skull dreads with triple kmB and a cc weapon is now quite good. That and gitz and some of the buggies enable lists with low model count. It’s gonna look real good too
I honestly think several buggies and Flash Gitz will go into the “green” tier list. The drops have made them likely competitive. Deff dread setup with 2-3 guns is probably a bump as well. Ork stuff seems to often be fine rules wise but not properly pointed.
I am really curious if we will start seeing buggy heavy mechanized lists with no boys. I think as long as marines dominate, boys are in a bad place.
I was making a list like that before the points drops because I was designing a fluffy/fun list that was supposed to mimick a Mad Max style. This also happened with my Daemons of Slaanesh... where I got them painted, no one played them... then BAM, new release and I look like a trendy hipster. lol
Jokes aside, I'm excited that my army will be able to fit more buggies/mech in!
I think all the buggies are quite good with the points drop... except the Squigbuggy still. I still think it just doesn't fit any particular role well? Unless I am missing something? The Snazzwagon is good anti-infantry but it's also good for running up and ramming things and exploding semi-on purpose to do some damage. KBB is a better version of that minus the suicidal tendency. Obviously the Scrapjet and Shokkjump were already good and just got better.
I want to pick it up because it's a cool model... I'm just not sure.
I also think boyz are in a rather bad place (but PA may give them something). We will have to see if a mechanized list with light vehicules dreads and gitz can stand take the firepower. I can see it’s Offensive and Mobility potential, I just doubt the resilience of it. We will see !
I'm actually excited to build a new mechanized list. Throw some Buggies and Koptas in there, tuck a couple Dreadz into a Tellyporta (or not), maybe even run some Kanz just for the lulz. It's a good time to be a mechanized Ork lover.
Going a mix between foot and mechanical, tankbustas in BW and nobz in TRUKK, I think it can be cool, and still got 100 points left, I could add a deffdread with 4 saws or smth
addnid wrote: I also think boyz are in a rather bad place (but PA may give them something). We will have to see if a mechanized list with light vehicules dreads and gitz can stand take the firepower. I can see it’s Offensive and Mobility potential, I just doubt the resilience of it. We will see !
A top placing player on reddit(I forgot which one, sorry :() summed up the issue with boyz quite nicely - he said that you definitely need some boyz in a competitive list, but their job is neither to kill or to tie up units, but to limit your opponent's movement and deployment options by forcing him to keep his deep strike screen up and not wander from the main force. If you don't bring boyz you give your opponent the freedom to deploy wherever they need, line up perfect shots, chaining units across multiple objectives and to buff characters, and so on.
When I think about it, I've won multiple games with ork by confining my opponent into their corner of the board and just running all over the other parts.
@Jid: you think Koptas could do the same for mechanized lists? They seem quick and dangerous enough to fill the same role as Boyz, but they may not be durable enough for it.
As for the list: mixing mech and infantry is usually a bad idea. Everyone brings ways to handle both, so you're giving your opponent prime targets for all their guns. I tend to focus on one or the other when list building, so my opponent's AA has no good targets against my infantry list and vice versa.
Koptas and Mek Gunz are kind of the exception to this, because they're in this weird middle ground where they work in both kinds of lists.
Bikes can, if you make them Kult of Speed - I did just that in my battle report and it worked really well. Just don't waste a CP on exhaust cloud if you do.
Koptas have too few models and to little attacks (and no nob) to make them dangerous or survive moral phases. In my experience, they are a harassing unit which pesters armor with their rokkits and ties down units in combat which struggle with their statline, mostly vehicles and light infantry (I once had one kopta keep an entire squad of sisters busy for all game). Because of this, I'm not exactly a fan of twin shoota koptas, as they basically lose their means to effectively harass stuff.
In general, ork mech is a lot of fun and can definitely take on other casual armies. I'm not sure if the price drops are enough to catapult them into competitive territory though, because those buggies really die fast and struggly to deny area due to the basically non-existent melee capabilities.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Bad news for competitive players - LVO now enforces rebasing to newest base size.
A top placing player on reddit(I forgot which one, sorry :() summed up the issue with boyz quite nicely - he said that you definitely need some boyz in a competitive list, but their job is neither to kill or to tie up units, but to limit your opponent's movement and deployment options by forcing him to keep his deep strike screen up and not wander from the main force. If you don't bring boyz you give your opponent the freedom to deploy wherever they need, line up perfect shots, chaining units across multiple objectives and to buff characters, and so on.
When I think about it, I've won multiple games with ork by confining my opponent into their corner of the board and just running all over the other parts.
Couldn’t you achieve this with Grots? In fact, because you can get 2.33 models per boy, it might be even better?
The problem is that Grots are 1) WAY easier to get rid of than Boyz (low T and low Morale), and you can easily lose 2 or 3 Gretchin for every boy you would have lost. And 2) they are not a threat to, well, anything. They got a single shot S3 pistol and a single S2 attack. Even 30 Gretchin will struggle to remove ANYTHING from the board, while 30 Boyz are threatening to everything short of a LoW.
An Actual Englishman wrote:
I'm aware, as can be seen from the rest of my post that you presumably failed to read;
Aren't you a ray of sunshine...
Vineheart01 wrote:MABoss technically never had a model. It was only Ghaz.
They could have easily just stuck a new head in there and it would have been fine though.
My question about the new Mek with KFF is does he have any wargear options, or did they do another static loadout bullcrap because technically the original model has a choppa (wrench with an edge) and no variations? Mine is kitbashed to have a KMB....
Or just have him as a basic entry like how Yriel is also cloned into the Craftworld codex as a generic glaive wielding Autarch.
Have people tried like 4x KMB badmoons? You get a KMB at 20 points each under that platform. About as cheap as we can get them .
81 points for that seems good?
I ran a Freebooterz one (just took the MWs on the chin) a couple weeks ago and reazlied I should have had him next to my SSAG Mek to heal. Vs the Shadowsword he's a huge threat and got prioitized over everything else after a couple bracket drops on the Baneblade. However I used to run one from the 3rd ed book so I'm fielding it based on historical fun more than it being the best competitive option.
A top placing player on reddit(I forgot which one, sorry :() summed up the issue with boyz quite nicely - he said that you definitely need some boyz in a competitive list, but their job is neither to kill or to tie up units, but to limit your opponent's movement and deployment options by forcing him to keep his deep strike screen up and not wander from the main force. If you don't bring boyz you give your opponent the freedom to deploy wherever they need, line up perfect shots, chaining units across multiple objectives and to buff characters, and so on.
When I think about it, I've won multiple games with ork by confining my opponent into their corner of the board and just running all over the other parts.
Couldn’t you achieve this with Grots? In fact, because you can get 2.33 models per boy, it might be even better?
Gretchin don't get 'ere we go or +1" from evil suns, and even if they make the charge, they are not going to kill anything. So, no.
flandarz wrote: The problem is that Grots are 1) WAY easier to get rid of than Boyz (low T and low Morale), and you can easily lose 2 or 3 Gretchin for every boy you would have lost. And 2) they are not a threat to, well, anything. They got a single shot S3 pistol and a single S2 attack. Even 30 Gretchin will struggle to remove ANYTHING from the board, while 30 Boyz are threatening to everything short of a LoW.
I think the point is they aren't *actually* a threat. It feels like they should be, but their main usefulness is against light-medium infantry. They aren't really a threat to vehicles (even with a klaw), and heavy infantry slaughter them with impunity (try charging aggressors and see how that goes).
And its 70 grots if you have 30 boys.
So defensively, the difference between the two is this:
T2 vs T4
Boys have better morale, especially if they retain a high model count.
Grots gets 2.33x more wounds vs Boys.
Offensively, of course, boys trounce Grots. But if you don't care about this, you're overpaying for it.
The morale issue -- killing 20 or so boys is not difficult for most armies, and without support, they will definitely start to run away. You sort of need to keep both by a Warboss (runt herd works for grots, if desired) if you want them to keep them around, unless all your boys are staying together. But if they are, they aren't spreading out.
If the purpose of our troops is to occupy space and be roadblocks for our real stuff in the backline, it seems to me Grots are just better. The main issue is morale, but I think that's relatively easy to circumvent and cheap, if you really just lean into the strategy. Boys suffer from this too, as they are often isolated.
Greentide is legitimately good, but you are often paying 5 CP for the privilege (2 for auto pass morale, 3 for greentide).
Gretchin don't get 'ere we go or +1" from evil suns, and even if they make the charge, they are not going to kill anything. So, no.
I guess my major question is, if Boys aren't actually a threat, do you care if your Grots charge at all, or even if they don't kill stuff, survive just enough to tag? They are roadblocks, take up space / screen, and get obsec. Grot blasters aren't great, but can be a 3+ to hit if your grots are in a 20+ mob. It's not nothing. It's just not CC.
I wonder if we are overpaying for Boys offensively capabilities. If Nobs + Klaws were in a better place, this conversation may be different.
Boyz are a legitimate threat against anything T7 and 3+, or worse. Even if you only get 15 of the 20+ into CC, you're looking at 45 attacks (Slugga Boyz), 30 hits, 10 Wounds (vs T5-7), and 3.33 damage (vs 3+ Save). They don't necessarily NEED to kill the target, but being able to deal 3 damage against one of your worst targets, while only getting half a Mob into CC, is something your opponent would need to consider and play around.
Grots, on the other hand, threaten nothing except other Grots. Too few attacks/shots, too poor Strength, and BS/WS is mediocre at best, even with 20+ models.
Yes, Gretchin are better at defending our own backline, but we were talking about that. We were discussing the way Boyz threaten an opponent's backfield and keep their forces in a "blob", and Boyz do this far better than Gretchin ever will.
Gretchin don't get 'ere we go or +1" from evil suns, and even if they make the charge, they are not going to kill anything. So, no.
I guess my major question is, if Boys aren't actually a threat, do you care if your Grots charge at all, or even if they don't kill stuff, survive just enough to tag? They are roadblocks, take up space / screen, and get obsec. Grot blasters aren't great, but can be a 3+ to hit if your grots are in a 20+ mob. It's not nothing. It's just not CC.
I wonder if we are overpaying for Boys offensively capabilities. If Nobs + Klaws were in a better place, this conversation may be different.
I never said boyz are not a threat, I said their job is not killing things. They are actually very threatening to things that are sitting inside the screen - they can mess up expensive elite units, troops holding objectives, characters and tie down multiple shooting units and fight twice or replenish their numbers if necessary, so it's in the best interest of your opponent to prevent that from happening. They wont be doing that, because your opponent will be screening and blasting them apart - but forcing him to play your game has a value that can't be measured in averages.
As for gretchin, the chance to roll 8" or less on your charge is a 72.22% chance - it's a complete waste of da jump to even try to charge with gretchin from deep strike.
flandarz wrote: Boyz are a legitimate threat against anything T7 and 3+, or worse. Even if you only get 15 of the 20+ into CC, you're looking at 45 attacks (Slugga Boyz), 30 hits, 10 Wounds (vs T5-7), and 3.33 damage (vs 3+ Save). They don't necessarily NEED to kill the target, but being able to deal 3 damage against one of your worst targets, while only getting half a Mob into CC, is something your opponent would need to consider and play around.
Grots, on the other hand, threaten nothing except other Grots. Too few attacks/shots, too poor Strength, and BS/WS is mediocre at best, even with 20+ models.
Yes, Gretchin are better at defending our own backline, but we were talking about that. We were discussing the way Boyz threaten an opponent's backfield and keep their forces in a "blob", and Boyz do this far better than Gretchin ever will.
Grot shooting is probably as good or better point for point than shoota boys actually if the mob is 20+ against a lot of targets (3+ to hit, 4+ or 5+ to wound). The issue is just getting the shots in range (can't advance and shoot, 12" range). But that's really besides the point, as it's more incidental.
If you're using the Boys as a thrust into their deployment zone, sure, you might want to pay the 4 points per model for their offensive power. I think for holding our backline / contesting objectives in side zones, grots are probably better. But I think we might agree on that point? There are other units you can use to do that, though.
I, personally, will probably try to field a single unit of Shoota Boys in my more competitive style lists, but no more, as a beefier roadblock that can thrust a bit in. I can probably keep that one under KFF, a painboy, and warboss, and then not need to use the morale strat for Greentide if I wish. Beyond that, I'd probably just take more grots and toys.
I never said boyz are not a threat, I said their job is not killing things. They are actually very threatening to things that are sitting inside the screen - they can mess up expensive elite units, troops holding objectives, characters and tie down multiple shooting units and fight twice or replenish their numbers if necessary, so it's in the best interest of your opponent to prevent that from happening.
They wont be doing that, because your opponent will be screening and blasting them apart - but forcing him to play your game has a value that can't be measured in averages.
As for gretchin, the chance to roll 8" or less on your charge is a 72.22% chance - it's a complete waste of da jump to even try to charge with gretchin from deep strike.
Boys are better for Da Jump -> charge, no disagreement here.
I think the thrust of the problem with that strategy is that Marines actively discourage deepstrikers (Auspex scan makes you pay for it, Infiltrators prevent a charge altogether). If you face a lot of marines, how are you getting value out of boys if they can't deepstrike and charge very easily?
I think the thrust of my argument is that, if we can't cheat boys in easily vs a common opponent in the meta, and we're mostly using them as backline roadblocks / holding side objectives, it seems like we're overpaying on their offensive capability when they are mostly just catching bullets.
Top placing ork lists use 3 units of evil suns boyz which tellyport, da jump or green tide into your opponent's back field for the reasons I outlined above - you want to restrict their movement. This is exclusively what I was talking about.
I don't think there is a reason to use boyz for any other job, but you need boyz to do that one job for you.
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tulun wrote: I think the thrust of the problem with that strategy is that Marines actively discourage deepstrikers (Auspex scan makes you pay for it, Infiltrators prevent a charge altogether). If you face a lot of marines, how are you getting value out of boys if they can't deepstrike and charge very easily?
You don't actually need to deep strike in order to get the intended effect - you just need to be able to do it.
As for auspex scan? Sure, I'd gladly have them burn 2 CP to shoot at boyz with -1 BS. Unlike their previous codex, marines actually have lots of stratagems that are worse than that.
For the infiltrators - I face them quite regularly, and I must say they are not as bad as they sound. Usually they have only one unit, because they are expensive as sin, and it forces them to castle around them - exactly what I want! In any case, there is usually some place you can deep strike anyways, as their aura doesn't have infinite range. If they move out of cover, just gun them down like any other screen.
If they have more than one unit? Congratulations, he spend tons of points on what's effectively bolter marines.
I think the thrust of my argument is that, if we can't cheat boys in easily vs a common opponent in the meta, and we're mostly using them as backline roadblocks / holding side objectives, it seems like we're overpaying on their offensive capability when they are mostly just catching bullets.
The whole point is to prevent your opponent from freely doing what he wants. Killing is not their priority - if your opponent castles up to hide from boys, he is not scoring objectives and he will lose the game. That's all that matters.
It's important to remember that EVERYONE is kitted out to handle Marines right now, so fielding what are essentially easier-to-kill Marines (which, for some reason, cost MORE) is asking for them to be wiped on T1. Nobz just have a lower value in your games than Boyz.
flandarz wrote: It's important to remember that EVERYONE is kitted out to handle Marines right now, so fielding what are essentially easier-to-kill Marines (which, for some reason, cost MORE) is asking for them to be wiped on T1. Nobz just have a lower value in your games than Boyz.
I would say a few things:
1) If they are using their autocannons and the like on my nobs and not my buggies, fine with me.
2) If your main strategy is to Da Jump -> Charge, it seems rather easy to hide 10 nobs behind cover or in a ruin. In cover, they also have a 3+ save.
3) Against 1D anti-infantry weapons, Nobs are better per point / model.
4) Gaining another grot squad has value that has to be considered (or saving even more points if you already have enough troops)
Well, as I mentioned above, it's optimal to either bring mostly infantry or mostly mechanized. If you're bringing Nobz and Buggies, you've just given your opponent optimal targets for all of their guns. So, I'm assuming that if you want to field Grots and Nobz, you're running a primarily infantry list, in which case you'll probably want Boyz AND Grotz. And in comparison to either of those units, Nobz just don't measure up well. Damage 2
with AP is incredibly prevalent, so they die just as quickly as Boyz, but at twice the cost. And in damage output, they don't measure up either (unless you charge them into some light vehicles and give them Big Choppas). They really needed like a 2-3 pt drop to be worth fielding over Boyz.
flandarz wrote: Well, as I mentioned above, it's optimal to either bring mostly infantry or mostly mechanized. If you're bringing Nobz and Buggies, you've just given your opponent optimal targets for all of their guns. So, I'm assuming that if you want to field Grots and Nobz, you're running a primarily infantry list, in which case you'll probably want Boyz AND Grotz. And in comparison to either of those units, Nobz just don't measure up well. Damage 2
with AP is incredibly prevalent, so they die just as quickly as Boyz, but at twice the cost. And in damage output, they don't measure up either (unless you charge them into some light vehicles and give them Big Choppas). They really needed like a 2-3 pt drop to be worth fielding over Boyz.
If my troops slots are filled, then the point difference is now 70 per unit. That's massive if the normal recommended # of boys is 90 (210 points saved).
Offensively, Nobs are fine, because it's a lot easier to get all of them into combat on the charge. 5 str 5 attacks per model, that doesn't degrade if I lose part of the unit (-1 attacks under 20 boys). If you can literally get every boy you buy into combat, they are better, but this isn't likely to happen off of Da Jump. I think you're lucky to get 15 boys in on the charge (45 or 60 attacks w/ 1 less strength vs 50 w/ +1 strength).
I just scratch my head paying 630 (or 645 w/ Big Choppa) for boys.
Going double-Choppa Nobz means you aren't taking any ranged weapons. While this is a fine option, that DOES mean that if you fail your charge, your Nobz did nothing except to die.
10 Nobz with DC are 50 attacks. Alternatively, if I get 1 Boss Nob and 15 Boyz into CC, they also get 50 attacks. Those 10 Nobz will cost ya 140 pts, while 20 Boyz will also cost ya 140 pts. And they'll still have Sluggas, so atleast SOME ranged ability.
Nobz certainly have a place in your army, but it isn't as a Boyz replacement.
On Boyz vs Grots it really depends on which list archetype you want to go for. Before the Marine meta there were 2 primary list archetypes - Shooty Orks and Board Controlly Orks.
Shooty Orks tended to use Grots exclusively and literally outshot their opponents - SSAG, SAG, Lootas, Tankbustas and lots of Smashas feature in this list type.
Board Controlly Orks use Boyz as the primary troop for reasons Jid has already pointed out. They have a few Grots but they serve to protect the SSAG mostly.
The other main list archetype was the Aussie dudes Meganobz list that also had no Boyz (only Grots) as the troops fillers. This was the list that interested me the most, as it was the most flexible, but I'm not sure Meganobz can stand in the Marine meta.
On a fully mechanised list - Jid is absolutely spot on again - Warbikes fulfil the same role as Boyz in that list. Unfortunately they don't provide CP so you probably need Grots to fill troop slots. They also take up less space, can't be Jumped, are more expensive, can't be "Green Tided" and suffer more from morale losses. I've used them, extensively, and it always feels like it'd be better to take more Boyz instead, unfortunately.
Nobz? Ranged capability? You mean flash gitz right?
All regular nobz have access to are kombi shootas. Wtf would you want to double the price of the nob for 2 S4 shots and a skorcha or rokkit shot for?
Nobz are dedicated melee. They are hot garbage if you dare give them any gun options. Not a single bit of their wargear caters to shooting in a meaningful way because kombi weapons are overpriced gak and they cant take dual-kustomshootas unless you play Legacy. All of the perks they are given are melee focused. 5 S5 attacks for 13pts on a T4, 2W, 4+ save is pretty dang good. There is 0 reason to ever give them a gun.
Well, Sluggas are still free, if you're willing to give up 1 attack per Nob for some shooting. I generally do, because I'd rather not fail the (admittedly reliable) charge roll and have my Nobz gunned down without having so much as scratched the enemy.
An Actual Englishman wrote: On Boyz vs Grots it really depends on which list archetype you want to go for. Before the Marine meta there were 2 primary list archetypes - Shooty Orks and Board Controlly Orks.
Shooty Orks tended to use Grots exclusively and literally outshot their opponents - SSAG, SAG, Lootas, Tankbustas and lots of Smashas feature in this list type.
Board Controlly Orks use Boyz as the primary troop for reasons Jid has already pointed out. They have a few Grots but they serve to protect the SSAG mostly.
The other main list archetype was the Aussie dudes Meganobz list that also had no Boyz (only Grots) as the troops fillers. This was the list that interested me the most, as it was the most flexible, but I'm not sure Meganobz can stand in the Marine meta.
On a fully mechanised list - Jid is absolutely spot on again - Warbikes fulfil the same role as Boyz in that list. Unfortunately they don't provide CP so you probably need Grots to fill troop slots. They also take up less space, can't be Jumped, are more expensive, can't be "Green Tided" and suffer more from morale losses. I've used them, extensively, and it always feels like it'd be better to take more Boyz instead, unfortunately.
So for my Mad Max/Mechanized list I am hearing... take Grots not boyz? I am currently taking a 2-3 shoota boy squads in a truck and it's been a mixed bag. They pump a lot of shots out but I don't think it's worth the points, particularly with the trukk adding so much for little value. The buggies on the otherhand have performed well, despite being overcosted. CA 2019 will just make that better I suppose.
My new concept (as well as being fluffy imo) and no boyz, just grots. 3-4 Smasha gunz with a SAG or SSAG from a mek or two for a barebones batallion for some CP. I might even do two.
The rest will be an outrider detachement of buggies, tankbustas in a Wagon or Trukk if I take a Bonebreakah. No bikes, and a Wazbom Blastajet. Any infantry units will get rocked by the buggies so my main concern is having anti-tank, hence the tankbustas + smasha guns and wazbom.
On the fluffy side, I view it as the Meks and Grots tooling up all the vehicles in the deployment zone before everyone is off to the races, but they're stinky little grots so they don't get to ride along so they get left behind with the Meks to arm the cannons.
flandarz wrote: Going double-Choppa Nobz means you aren't taking any ranged weapons. While this is a fine option, that DOES mean that if you fail your charge, your Nobz did nothing except to die.
10 Nobz with DC are 50 attacks. Alternatively, if I get 1 Boss Nob and 15 Boyz into CC, they also get 50 attacks. Those 10 Nobz will cost ya 140 pts, while 20 Boyz will also cost ya 140 pts. And they'll still have Sluggas, so atleast SOME ranged ability.
Nobz certainly have a place in your army, but it isn't as a Boyz replacement.
Charging is pretty consistent with Evil Suns -- honestly, a few slugga shots isn't going to make the unit worth it if they fail the charge no matter what (20 shots, around 7 hits...)
I think you can expose a 30 man squad more because 2D weapons are the same to them -- but I think you could work around some of the issues you've brought up with Nobs. Maybe not 3 squads of Nobs, but 1-2 might work okay.
I could see a strategy, even with a more mechanized list, where you hide / hold back your nobs in Tellyporta or on your backline, then use the Weirdboy to throw them into an appropriate area. As long as you can hide them from shooting until then, they might be a cheaper solution to the same problem.
An Actual Englishman wrote:
On Boyz vs Grots it really depends on which list archetype you want to go for. Before the Marine meta there were 2 primary list archetypes - Shooty Orks and Board Controlly Orks.
Shooty Orks tended to use Grots exclusively and literally outshot their opponents - SSAG, SAG, Lootas, Tankbustas and lots of Smashas feature in this list type.
Board Controlly Orks use Boyz as the primary troop for reasons Jid has already pointed out. They have a few Grots but they serve to protect the SSAG mostly.
The other main list archetype was the Aussie dudes Meganobz list that also had no Boyz (only Grots) as the troops fillers. This was the list that interested me the most, as it was the most flexible, but I'm not sure Meganobz can stand in the Marine meta.
On a fully mechanised list - Jid is absolutely spot on again - Warbikes fulfil the same role as Boyz in that list. Unfortunately they don't provide CP so you probably need Grots to fill troop slots. They also take up less space, can't be Jumped, are more expensive, can't be "Green Tided" and suffer more from morale losses. I've used them, extensively, and it always feels like it'd be better to take more Boyz instead, unfortunately.
That Aussie dude I think in one of his more recent tournaments took a 360+ model list. I believe it was 360 grots plus his other stuff. I think he did really well in that local tournament. Don't have the list exactly, just heard him mention it somewhere.
I think I lean more on the shooty / elite side of the ork archetypes. Primaris sucks for the boys. I think they are fine in most other matchups, though.
its a slugga, if anything its going to make that charge harder.
10 slugga shots is what ~4 hits? S4, so not wounding reliably, no AP so full save allowed (and probably cover) so if it even does kill a model theyre going to remove it from the front and make that charge slightly harder.
Sluggas are terrible, i usually opt to not even shoot them unless i wasnt intending to charge anyway or i am RIGHT in their face in the first place.
Vineheart01 wrote: its a slugga, if anything its going to make that charge harder.
10 slugga shots is what ~4 hits? S4, so not wounding reliably, no AP so full save allowed (and probably cover) so if it even does kill a model theyre going to remove it from the front and make that charge slightly harder.
Sluggas are terrible, i usually opt to not even shoot them unless i wasnt intending to charge anyway or i am RIGHT in their face in the first place.
Honestly, wouldn’t shoota boys be better as a backup plan if we’re really worried? 2-3 attacks each on the charge is still fine and now you can pour like 58 shots into second unit as you charge.
They are. And, as a bonus, you can target a unit that you're not charging, because the range isn't awful.
I'll admit that Sluggas aren't ideal, but I'd still rather have them than not. Not like Nobz are really gonna have any issues with the number of attacks they have anyway.
Btw, I think going choppa nobz is useless, we have enough army for dealing with hordes and map control.
What's really being asked isn't whether Nobs are useful for hordes above and beyond taking Slugga / Shoota boys.
The question is: Can you take 10 Nobs instead of 30 boys, and save 40 or 70 points. Gaining 120-210 points in a 2000 point list would *massive* if they can fulfill the same role.
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flandarz wrote: They are. And, as a bonus, you can target a unit that you're not charging, because the range isn't awful.
I'll admit that Sluggas aren't ideal, but I'd still rather have them than not. Not like Nobz are really gonna have any issues with the number of attacks they have anyway.
I'm more bullish on Shoota boys to be honest, but I like being able to both shoot and charge.
But you typically see almost 100% slugga boys.
The typical style tournament list I am betting is going to need to change. If you look at the 40k stats, Orks are not doing as well since marines came out...
ArmchairArbiter wrote: So for my Mad Max/Mechanized list I am hearing... take Grots not boyz? I am currently taking a 2-3 shoota boy squads in a truck and it's been a mixed bag. They pump a lot of shots out but I don't think it's worth the points, particularly with the trukk adding so much for little value. The buggies on the otherhand have performed well, despite being overcosted. CA 2019 will just make that better I suppose.
My new concept (as well as being fluffy imo) and no boyz, just grots. 3-4 Smasha gunz with a SAG or SSAG from a mek or two for a barebones batallion for some CP. I might even do two.
The rest will be an outrider detachement of buggies, tankbustas in a Wagon or Trukk if I take a Bonebreakah. No bikes, and a Wazbom Blastajet. Any infantry units will get rocked by the buggies so my main concern is having anti-tank, hence the tankbustas + smasha guns and wazbom.
On the fluffy side, I view it as the Meks and Grots tooling up all the vehicles in the deployment zone before everyone is off to the races, but they're stinky little grots so they don't get to ride along so they get left behind with the Meks to arm the cannons.
I tended to fill my battalions with 70 Boyz in one (30+30+10) and the rest were Grots (10+10+10 x 2). I Jumped 40 Boyz turn 1 and sometimes held the second squad of Boyz in reserve, sometimes Jumped them depending on how I felt with my opponent. I used to run 10 Bikes only, and for every Bike I removed the list improved in efficiency. The Boyz and Bikes were the anti chaff/horde. My anti-vehicle were SSAG, Shockjump Dragster, Scrapjet, Wazzbom and a Bikerboss with Killa Klaw.
It wasn't a good list, but I much preferred it to running hordes and I can't stand the idea of Orks using artillery.
E - Guys, on Mech Orks I can tell you that Nobz in Trukks are not the answer. We have tried them before and neither improved with CA. They are too easy to kill and their damage output is too low, even with BC.
Trukks are to be filled with Tankbustas.
Battlewagons are useful.
Flash Gits improved.
Meganobz might be worth considering now.
Dreads need testing but are potentially a decent alpha/beta strike.
Nobz definitely arent technically a good choice theyre more "i want to use them" sort of thing, since they still work they just work in ways orks dont really need help in.
Orks have a lot of that right now.
It wasn't a good list, but I much preferred it to running hordes and I can't stand the idea of Orks using artillery.
E - Guys, on Mech Orks I can tell you that Nobz in Trukks are not the answer. We have tried them before and neither improved with CA. They are too easy to kill and their damage output is too low, even with BC.
Trukks are to be filled with Tankbustas.
Battlewagons are useful.
Flash Gits improved.
Meganobz might be worth considering now.
Dreads need testing but are potentially a decent alpha/beta strike.
Battlewagons and MANz got zero improvements in CA, why would you say they are useful now when they got basically 0 play before? ( I love MANz, but I wish they had dropped a bit via PK reductions...)
MANz are 3W models. 3W models are a completely different mindset.
The main weapon that threatens 2W troopers only do 2 damage, its not very common for flat3 damage that isnt trying to take out a tank instead of manz.
Thats why Intercessors going to 3W for some fething reason was such a big deal.
It's also important to note that MANz have a 2+ to Marine 3+. Might seem like a small difference, but against -1 AP, that's a 1/3 chance to take damage versus a 50% chance. Or, in essence, if it would take 2 shots to take out a 2W Marine, it would take 6 of the same attacks to do the same to a MAN.
And on top of that, in general, MANz will be in cover so they STILL have a 2+
This is why they are objective campers. It takes some serious firepower to get them off something that has cover.
tulun wrote: Battlewagons and MANz got zero improvements in CA, why would you say they are useful now when they got basically 0 play before? ( I love MANz, but I wish they had dropped a bit via PK reductions...)
Good question. MANZ did see play, but it was rare for sure.
The reason I think they might have play now is because of the new meta. I think they'll prove more troublesome to Marines both in terms of their damage output and their durability. I agree they could've done with a PK drop but they're an interesting unit right now, I think. Low AP attacks, even in high volume, just won't cut it I think.
E - as Vineheart and Flanderz said above, they're 3W which is a big deal in the current meta.
Vineheart01 wrote: MANz are 3W models. 3W models are a completely different mindset.
The main weapon that threatens 2W troopers only do 2 damage, its not very common for flat3 damage that isnt trying to take out a tank instead of manz.
Thats why Intercessors going to 3W for some fething reason was such a big deal.
tulun wrote: Battlewagons and MANz got zero improvements in CA, why would you say they are useful now when they got basically 0 play before? ( I love MANz, but I wish they had dropped a bit via PK reductions...)
Good question. MANZ did see play, but it was rare for sure.
The reason I think they might have play now is because of the new meta. I think they'll prove more troublesome to Marines both in terms of their damage output and their durability. I agree they could've done with a PK drop but they're an interesting unit right now, I think. Low AP attacks, even in high volume, just won't cut it I think.
E - as Vineheart and Flanderz said above, they're 3W which is a big deal in the current meta.
I like em. I think they can do work. Especially if we start fielding walls of vehicles.
Dc nobz 140 points
Vs guardsmen 11 DM (dead models) ROI (return of investment) 35%
Vs Marines 5 DM ROI 54%
Vs Primaris 2 DM ROI 31%
BC Nobz 190 points
Vs guardsmen 15 DM ROI 31%
Vs Marines DM 7 ROI 55%
Vs Primaris DM 6 ROI 69%
So the winner vs Primaris is clearly BC Nobz, problem is that when you add the trukk the same unit ROI drops to 51%, so you need to fight twice at least to get you points back. At the same time you get flexibility and the possibility to go 3+ for 1 CP with loot it.
Now 30 BM shoota boyz, 210 points
Vs guardsmen 12 DM 23% ROI
Vs Marines 4 DM 28% ROI
Vs Primaris 2 DM 22% ROI
BUT, if you make it into combat you gotta add
Vs guard 17 DM 32% ROI
Vs Marines 6DM 42% ROI
Vs Primaris 3 DM 31% ROI
What this tells us?
Well DC Nobz are shiet.
BC Nobz are best at killing primaris , are 32% more resilient to AP 0, 17% to AP 1 and worthless at AP2 D2. Also having them in a trukk is not bad at all.
Boyz will be boyz vs cheap chaff and OG Marines , but they can mob up, be 10 bodies more and green tide.
I add the math for 10 meganobz since it took me forever to write that post and now you dirty dogs are getting all slobby over MANZ
350 points, 30 W 2+ in CC unbuffed
Vs guards 12DM 13% ROI
Vs Marines 10DM 43% ROI
Vs primaris 10DM 63% ROI
Which steal the price vs Primaris by far, they have just as many body as the Nobz unit , same W are 30 boyz and can be buffed by a banner or warpath.
Shame I just bought 18 Nobz and 4MANZ for like 30€. Should had done the opposite...
Well since I can't get enough of those orks, I believe I Just got a new list
I feel like you won't get a lot of mileage out of the Freebooter Kultur in that list. If suggest swapping Badrukk with the BM SAG, and the Gitz with the Manz, and making a Deathskullz Battalion instead. That way you got Ob Sec on your SAG and MANz, an emergency 6++, and some rerolls to play with for them as well.
Unless you go full Freebooters, I feel like the already kinda mediocre Kultur falls flat. So putting the Gitz and Badrukk over there with the TBs is pretty much the same as putting them in their own Kultur.
Exactly the kind of list i've been brewing -- I'd have a couple suggestions for you.
1) Try to put your 3rd SAG into DS. It's *so* much better there. Re-roll damage is too clutch.
2) I'm not sure 30 grots is enough to keep your gits alive. It's definitely not worth going freebootas. Take a trukk instead, tellyport them into position, hide them and da Jump, or some combination of the above.
3) I don't think Bad Moons is the right kultur for MANz. Buffing their shooting is probably not really worth it. Evil Suns extends their threat range of their guns and assaults, or Deathskullz provides Obsec. Invul save probably won't do anything, there isn't much AP-5 in the game.
Is this with the Gitz discount? Or do you have another X number of points to squeeze?
Dc nobz 140 points
Vs guardsmen 11 DM (dead models) ROI (return of investment) 35%
Vs Marines 5 DM ROI 54%
Vs Primaris 2 DM ROI 31%
BC Nobz 190 points
Vs guardsmen 15 DM ROI 31%
Vs Marines DM 7 ROI 55%
Vs Primaris DM 6 ROI 69%
So the winner vs Primaris is clearly BC Nobz, problem is that when you add the trukk the same unit ROI drops to 51%, so you need to fight twice at least to get you points back. At the same time you get flexibility and the possibility to go 3+ for 1 CP with loot it.
Now 30 BM shoota boyz, 210 points
Vs guardsmen 12 DM 23% ROI
Vs Marines 4 DM 28% ROI
Vs Primaris 2 DM 22% ROI
BUT, if you make it into combat you gotta add
Vs guard 17 DM 32% ROI
Vs Marines 6DM 42% ROI
Vs Primaris 3 DM 31% ROI
What this tells us?
Well DC Nobz are shiet.
BC Nobz are best at killing primaris , are 32% more resilient to AP 0, 17% to AP 1 and worthless at AP2 D2. Also having them in a trukk is not bad at all.
Boyz will be boyz vs cheap chaff and OG Marines , but they can mob up, be 10 bodies more and green tide.
Now those are facts, make your pick
I'll take some DC Nobz and let you guys know how they do as a rep for 30 sluggas. I am still in the camp they are undervalued, especially with some planning and strategy. And I get to save 70 points... That's another buggy or 2 smasha guns, an SAG, a weirdboy, a painboy...
I'll still probably take a 30 man Shoota Boy squad if I want a core of Boys. Spending ~350 on boys/Nobs seems like an ok investment.
My thought behind it is that you have already 3 other scary big unit to take care off and Gitz without badrukk and grot shield suffer a lot.
The extra 60 points is before ca drop, so it should be 2k on the nose.
At best you could switch badrukk for a warboss, go ES with the MANZ and the gitz, but you would leave them in the open with no real protection.
I think Badrukk and the Gitz are fine to bring. I'd just drop Freebooterz for another Deathskullz. Throw the SAG and MANz in there for the DS bonuses, and put the Gitz and Badrukk in the Badmoonz detachment.
They can, but it's still not enough in a meta where you need to kill squads of 10 Marines on the regular. And anything that can take down 10 Marines will take down 10 Nobz and 2 Ammo Runts.
He has two DS Battalions, so that's actually 60 Grots. And if that ain't enough, then there's literally nothing that would protect them anyway. Anything that can blow through 60 Grots and the Gitz behind it (on average, even with SMBS and -1 AP, that's 162 Strength 8 shots) will blow through a Trukk, a BW, or anything else you try to put in their way. So what else would you recommend to keep these Gitz safe, if that's not enough?
It's stupid as hell, but yeah, only Freebootas grots can protect gits.
Throw em in a trukk, make it Deathskullz so it has Ramshackle and a 6++, Loot it when it pops, have them disembark into cover for a 2+ save? Nice thing is, if they disembark from the vehicle popping and survive, they count as standing still next round. Woop.
Also, not sure how your math is working out there.
You just force your opponent to activate grot shields, then shoot the grots until they are dead -- Wounding on 2s is better than 4s with your str 4 bolters, and there's no painboy or KFF to give the grots a save beyond their t-shirt.
I forgot about that. Yeah. Too bad, cuz a single Battalion of Freebooterz is basically worthless. Best case scenario is Badrukk pops a unit and gives the Gitz a +1, but that's incredibly unlikely. And not like you can rely on the Grots to pull it off.
My suggestion is to still drop the FB Battalion and just put the Gitz into a Tellyporta. Drop em T2, Da Jump Badrukk up for support, and hope that they deal enough damage before your opponent wipes em out.
Honestly, Gits might be cheap enough where using them as a sacrificial unit might be okay. 248 for 10 + 2 ammo runts is 30 shots, 2 re-rolls, and can shoot twice on a 6 (if you want, try to reroll this with a command point so it happens on ~33% of the time).
If you deep strike them into cover, a 3+ save w/ 2 wounds isn't so bad.
tulun wrote: These are interesting points, thanks.
Could we not achieve something similar for less points?
10 grots + 10 nobs w/choppas is 170 points. 175 if you give one a big choppa.
Or is losing the threat of green tide + multi damage weapons ( and I guess theoretically worse morale ) making that less tenable?
I’m sure it would be easy to hide a unit of 10 nobs turn 1
Not sure, but in theory it could work. The biggest downside of nobz compared to warbikers or boyz is their small footprint, so pulling of multi-assaults and arrests is difficult.
Emicrania wrote: My thought behind it is that you have already 3 other scary big unit to take care off and Gitz without badrukk and grot shield suffer a lot.
The extra 60 points is before ca drop, so it should be 2k on the nose.
At best you could switch badrukk for a warboss, go ES with the MANZ and the gitz, but you would leave them in the open with no real protection.
You should do this. Evil Sunz is the way to go for MANZ - it gives them a grater threat range and most importantly gets them into position quicker (middle of the board).
Forget protecting the MANZ, let your opponent try to dislodge them while you win the game. They’re a trap.
I wouldn’t trade Gits in this list, I’d try to squeeze in some Mek gunz or Lootas.
Remember that the Aussie dude is what? Top 3 ork player itc and he run the list with 3 battalion, ES,DS and BM. He got 30 grots for his lootas and no KFF. The lootas costs 7 ppm and have better save and 1 more W.
My thought is to not use a 350 points unit to DS and charge, even with a rerollable 8", is too much of a gamble, my thought is to footslog the MANz midfield and treath everyting that comes close, as you blast them with SAG, Tankabusta and Gitz from behind. That list have 4 death star and 150 models. Ain't that easy to manage or to counter.
The only problem is maybe losing ES kultur for grovt shield, but again, I would footslog or jump them anywah
An Actual Englishman wrote: Shooty Orks tended to use Grots exclusively and literally outshot their opponents - SSAG, SAG, Lootas, Tankbustas and lots of Smashas feature in this list type.
That's not true, all recent top placements of this archetype had an evil suns battalion with two or three unit of boyz for the reasons outlined above. See panda's weekly rundowns for lists.
Board Controlly Orks use Boyz as the primary troop for reasons Jid has already pointed out. They have a few Grots but they serve to protect the SSAG mostly.
That list has all but disappeared from top tables since last CA. I think we had only one or two instances (out of ~30 top placements) where such a list did well.
The other main list archetype was the Aussie dudes Meganobz list that also had no Boyz (only Grots) as the troops fillers. This was the list that interested me the most, as it was the most flexible, but I'm not sure Meganobz can stand in the Marine meta.
That list is basically a variant of shooty orks. The guy gave some insight on how he used them on reddit - he basically deep strikes them onto objectives(preferably somewhere in the middle of the board) with enemy units on them, clears out the units and then uses what's left of them to hold the objective. He rarely used them to fight down knights or other hard targets, but he always has the option to do so if necessary.
On a fully mechanised list - Jid is absolutely spot on again - Warbikes fulfil the same role as Boyz in that list. Unfortunately they don't provide CP so you probably need Grots to fill troop slots. They also take up less space, can't be Jumped, are more expensive, can't be "Green Tided" and suffer more from morale losses. I've used them, extensively, and it always feels like it'd be better to take more Boyz instead, unfortunately.
If you need them to take up more space, but them on the new bases. The footprint is silly large, they cover almost 50% more area than 30 boyz would.
Emicrania wrote: Remember that the Aussie dude is what? Top 3 ork player itc and he run the list with 3 battalion, ES,DS and BM. He got 30 grots for his lootas and no KFF. The lootas costs 7 ppm and have better save and 1 more W.
My thought is to not use a 350 points unit to DS and charge, even with a rerollable 8", is too much of a gamble, my thought is to footslog the MANz midfield and treath everyting that comes close, as you blast them with SAG, Tankabusta and Gitz from behind. That list have 4 death star and 150 models. Ain't that easy to manage or to counter.
The only problem is maybe losing ES kultur for grovt shield, but again, I would footslog or jump them anywah
But MANZ are slow as feth when footslogged as anything but ES and their threat range is shorter when they’re sat in the middle of the board because no +1 MV, Adv and charge. Aussie guy takes MANZ as ES for exactly these reasons. BM seems a waste to me, that’s for sure.
ArmchairArbiter wrote: So for my Mad Max/Mechanized list I am hearing... take Grots not boyz? I am currently taking a 2-3 shoota boy squads in a truck and it's been a mixed bag. They pump a lot of shots out but I don't think it's worth the points, particularly with the trukk adding so much for little value. The buggies on the otherhand have performed well, despite being overcosted. CA 2019 will just make that better I suppose.
My new concept (as well as being fluffy imo) and no boyz, just grots. 3-4 Smasha gunz with a SAG or SSAG from a mek or two for a barebones batallion for some CP. I might even do two.
Agree, mech lists have no use for boyz.
The rest will be an outrider detachement of buggies, tankbustas in a Wagon or Trukk if I take a Bonebreakah. No bikes, and a Wazbom Blastajet. Any infantry units will get rocked by the buggies so my main concern is having anti-tank, hence the tankbustas + smasha guns and wazbom.
Both the scrapjet and the SJD are pretty good anti-tank weapon, and the KBB also can help plonking wounds off them. My biggest issue is taking out things with good defense, like eliminators, units with storm shields, vehicles protected by -1 to hit, etc. I'm planning to bring a weird boy next game, just to have some source of mortal wounds to handle targets like that and maybe cast warpath somewhere.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Shooty Orks tended to use Grots exclusively and literally outshot their opponents - SSAG, SAG, Lootas, Tankbustas and lots of Smashas feature in this list type.
That's not true, all recent top placements of this archetype had an evil suns battalion with two or three unit of boyz for the reasons outlined above. See panda's weekly rundowns for lists.
Board Controlly Orks use Boyz as the primary troop for reasons Jid has already pointed out. They have a few Grots but they serve to protect the SSAG mostly.
That list has all but disappeared from top tables since last CA. I think we had only one or two instances (out of ~30 top placements) where such a list did well.
The other main list archetype was the Aussie dudes Meganobz list that also had no Boyz (only Grots) as the troops fillers. This was the list that interested me the most, as it was the most flexible, but I'm not sure Meganobz can stand in the Marine meta.
That list is basically a variant of shooty orks. The guy gave some insight on how he used them on reddit - he basically deep strikes them onto objectives(preferably somewhere in the middle of the board) with enemy units on them, clears out the units and then uses what's left of them to hold the objective. He rarely used them to fight down knights or other hard targets, but he always has the option to do so if necessary.
On a fully mechanised list - Jid is absolutely spot on again - Warbikes fulfil the same role as Boyz in that list. Unfortunately they don't provide CP so you probably need Grots to fill troop slots. They also take up less space, can't be Jumped, are more expensive, can't be "Green Tided" and suffer more from morale losses. I've used them, extensively, and it always feels like it'd be better to take more Boyz instead, unfortunately.
If you need them to take up more space, but them on the new bases. The footprint is silly large, they cover almost 50% more area than 30 boyz would.
You’re probably right on the list archetypes, I haven’t been checking lists as thoroughly as some of you on here for a while.
You’re not entirely right on the Aussie guys list though, he’s done a pretty in-depth tactica and I think he tended to footslog the MANZ - could be wrong but that’s my recollection anyway. Either way his list is supposed to be a TAC list as I understand it, it can adapt to suit the situation and opponent (which is why I think it’s most flexible).
Lol I’ve rebased my bikes and boys, them boys take up a hell of a lot more space
I've been considering a Nobs & Flashgits based list (with grots and SAG's to get CP to play with) rolling in battlewagons and kill-tanks (wagons for gits, kill tanks for nobs).
I'm actually thinking of running as snakebites. Everything I have in the list has decent saves and massed firepower and not much random damage, so deathskulls 6++ isn't that helpful and the rerolls are less needed than with 2-3 shots. having 6+++ on the big tanks and nobs/gits (who will likely have 3+ saves after loot it has gone off) is probably going to help more with survival. It's either that or evil suns for easier charges, but with 'ere we go already, it's not actually too bad getting into combat. The only other consideration is Blood Axes, as it will give me better survival from a distance and stop me getting tied up in combat and prevented from doing anything next turn, which strikes me as very useful for 2-3 kill tanks forming most of the army.
I might even splurge if I have the CP and try out the buzzer squig hive bomm relic, probably on a waaagh! banner nob as he'll likely get close. Normally SSAG is my priority, but with 2-3 bursta guns, I'll have my high S good AP weapons, but with less damage than a SSAG... difficult...
Not sure, but in theory it could work. The biggest downside of nobz compared to warbikers or boyz is their small footprint, so pulling of multi-assaults and arrests is difficult.
True. You can more easily squeeze 10 nobs into a tight deep strike zone at least.
I guess the trade off here is also does the unit work as described for the cost saving. Like maybe nobs footprint is less, but paying 70 points less for the squad is a fine trade off. We get nobs + other units which changes the equation.
If they were equal cost, it would just be better to go for troops without much more thought. Obsec.
Automatically Appended Next Post: You know on some thought I might have to pick up a full squad of Warbikers.
If you combo them with Kult of speed, maybe they aren’t actually that overcosted.
We already pay 215 points for a tie up unit of boys (30 + BC ).
A unit of 12 is 276. Pricier, but you get:
72 Big Shoota shots
T5
2W each ( total wounds is 25 for the squad)
Easier to get all 12 in so not too dissimilar attacks on the charge
4+ save
And a potential 44/45” charge ( average of about 40”) that ignores auspex scan and infiltrators in the marine matchup.
Missing sauce to me has always been Kult of speed. I’ve overlooked it.
flandarz wrote: It's also important to note that MANz have a 2+ to Marine 3+. Might seem like a small difference, but against -1 AP, that's a 1/3 chance to take damage versus a 50% chance. Or, in essence, if it would take 2 shots to take out a 2W Marine, it would take 6 of the same attacks to do the same to a MAN.
probably because the looted trio doesnt have points and legends has points.
They'd have to actually price that stuff. And at least for the Battlefortress thats quite the task and GW be lazy about these things.
Hey guys, I know it’s probably a bad list but, I was wandering if I could get some opinions on how this list would fair in competent-casual sort of games. I don’t play tournaments and such but we tend to have competent lists.
Spoiler:
(Battalion)
HQ - Ghazghkull
- Big Mek w/ KFF TROOP
- 30x Boyz 10x Shootas, 19x Choppas, Boss w/ 2x Choppas (Skarboyz)
- 30x Boyz 10x Shootas, 10x Choppas, Boss w/ 2x Choppas (Skarboyz)
- 10x Grots
- 10x Grots
ELITE
- 5x Meganobz w/ Klaws and Kustom Shootas
- 10x Nobz w/ Big Coppas and Choppas
(Spearhead)
HQ - Big Mek w/ SSAG
HEAVY SUPPORT
- Bonebreaka
- Bonebreaka
- 2x Deff Dreads w/ 2x Klaws, 2x Saws
- 3x Mek Gunz w/ KMK
Vineheart01 wrote: probably because the looted trio doesnt have points and legends has points.
They'd have to actually price that stuff. And at least for the Battlefortress thats quite the task and GW be lazy about these things.
I meant the one that appeared on the WD a while back. Certainly it can't be that difficult.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tiberius501 wrote: Hey guys, I know it’s probably a bad list but, I was wandering if I could get some opinions on how this list would fair in competent-casual sort of games. I don’t play tournaments and such but we tend to have competent lists.
Spoiler:
(Battalion)
HQ - Ghazghkull
- Big Mek w/ KFF TROOP
- 30x Boyz 10x Shootas, 19x Choppas, Boss w/ 2x Choppas (Skarboyz)
- 30x Boyz 10x Shootas, 10x Choppas, Boss w/ 2x Choppas (Skarboyz)
- 10x Grots
- 10x Grots
ELITE
- 5x Meganobz w/ Klaws and Kustom Shootas
- 10x Nobz w/ Big Coppas and Choppas
(Spearhead)
HQ - Big Mek w/ SSAG
HEAVY SUPPORT
- Bonebreaka
- Bonebreaka
- 2x Deff Dreads w/ 2x Klaws, 2x Saws
- 3x Mek Gunz w/ KMK
Too easy to chose the target. I would add a weird boy somehow to Da Jump a blob of boys. Otherwise they all will be dead before reaching combat.
The bonebreaker that carries Ghazkull will have a huge red point for the enemies AT.
T1nk4bell wrote: With cp reroll flash gitz shoot twice is 30,555556% exactly
It feels less than this. The odds are too low for me to want to run the risk (and build a list around it).
Maths is wrong chance wise it is 1/6 =16.66%=0.1666
with the reroll it is (1/6+1/6)=2/12=1/6 =16.66%=0.1666
both rolls are independent of each other and don't affect each other.
the probability of success doesn't change with the reroll - you just get an extra opportunity at success at the same rate/chance/probability which is 1/6=16.666%
T1nk4bell wrote: With cp reroll flash gitz shoot twice is 30,555556% exactly
It feels less than this. The odds are too low for me to want to run the risk (and build a list around it).
Maths is wrong chance wise it is 1/6 =16.66%=0.1666
with the reroll it is (1/6+1/6)=2/12=1/6 =16.66%=0.1666
both rolls are independent of each other and don't affect each other.
the probability of success doesn't change with the reroll - you just get an extra opportunity at success at the same rate/chance/probability which is 1/6=16.666%
The probablity before rolling the dice both times, is 0.3055 of success, because you have 2 chances.
The probablility of success after throwing the first dice failing and going to throw the second dice is 0.166
1/6 + 1/6 is not 1/36 bro, that would be 1/6*1/6, is 2/6 = 1/3, and that's not the way it is calculated because, in case you would throw the dice 6 times, you would have a 100% chance, and that's not true.
The 30.55% comes from the 1/6 + 5/6*1/6, the chance of succes at the first time (1/6) + the chance of succes of the second time (5/6 of fails * 1/6 of success)
The problem here is probability not reflect real cases, only the mathematical point of view, because when you throw the dice and fail, you still didn't waste CP, and the moment you gonna waste the CP, the chance is only 16%, being orkz an army very CP dependant, so wasting a CP in a 16.6% chance of shooting again is not really worth it
T1nk4bell wrote: With cp reroll flash gitz shoot twice is 30,555556% exactly
It feels less than this. The odds are too low for me to want to run the risk (and build a list around it).
Maths is wrong chance wise it is 1/6 =16.66%=0.1666
with the reroll it is (1/6+1/6)=2/12=1/6 =16.66%=0.1666
both rolls are independent of each other and don't affect each other.
the probability of success doesn't change with the reroll - you just get an extra opportunity at success at the same rate/chance/probability which is 1/6=16.666%
1/6+1/6=2/6, or 1/3.
Which isn't how you calculate it (see the post before mine for how) but you don't add denominators, only numerators.
Tiberius501 wrote: Hey guys, I know it’s probably a bad list but, I was wandering if I could get some opinions on how this list would fair in competent-casual sort of games. I don’t play tournaments and such but we tend to have competent lists.
Spoiler:
(Battalion)
HQ - Ghazghkull
- Big Mek w/ KFF TROOP
- 30x Boyz 10x Shootas, 19x Choppas, Boss w/ 2x Choppas (Skarboyz)
- 30x Boyz 10x Shootas, 10x Choppas, Boss w/ 2x Choppas (Skarboyz)
- 10x Grots
- 10x Grots
ELITE
- 5x Meganobz w/ Klaws and Kustom Shootas
- 10x Nobz w/ Big Coppas and Choppas
(Spearhead)
HQ - Big Mek w/ SSAG
HEAVY SUPPORT
- Bonebreaka
- Bonebreaka
- 2x Deff Dreads w/ 2x Klaws, 2x Saws
- 3x Mek Gunz w/ KMK
you haven't listed Kulturs/CP/warlord traits and your overall strategy.
people need this stuff to make proper assessment,
but i generally dislike all ork transports, in 8th ed full of high str high damage ranged weaponry, i see them as point sinks.
better to have more Ork models, more CP for Teleport Strategems and a weird boy to da jump them up the field.
Thanks for the replies guys. I’m going Goffs for Ghazza, not sure on which relic to use. I’m not hugely sure on what to use for Orks, none of it looks particularly standout-isn
T1nk4bell wrote: With cp reroll flash gitz shoot twice is 30,555556% exactly
It feels less than this. The odds are too low for me to want to run the risk (and build a list around it).
Maths is wrong chance wise it is 1/6 =16.66%=0.1666
with the reroll it is (1/6+1/6)=2/12=1/6 =16.66%=0.1666
both rolls are independent of each other and don't affect each other.
the probability of success doesn't change with the reroll - you just get an extra opportunity at success at the same rate/chance/probability which is 1/6=16.666%
The probablity before rolling the dice both times, is 0.3055 of success, because you have 2 chances.
The probablility of success after throwing the first dice failing and going to throw the second dice is 0.166
1/6 + 1/6 is not 1/36 bro, that would be 1/6*1/6, is 2/6 = 1/3, and that's not the way it is calculated because, in case you would throw the dice 6 times, you would have a 100% chance, and that's not true.
The 30.55% comes from the 1/6 + 5/6*1/6, the chance of succes at the first time (1/6) + the chance of succes of the second time (5/6 of fails * 1/6 of success)
The problem here is probability not reflect real cases, only the mathematical point of view, because when you throw the dice and fail, you still didn't waste CP, and the moment you gonna waste the CP, the chance is only 16%, being orkz an army very CP dependant, so wasting a CP in a 16.6% chance of shooting again is not really worth it
fair enough it's early for me this morning, just testing you lol. it is 30.5555555%
(1/6)x((5/6)x(1/6))=30.555%
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kebabcito wrote: As far as I remember, no chance to get a relic with Ghazkgull, he comes with everything in the pack
it says this under shiny gubbinz section
"If your army is led by an ORK Warlord, then before the battle you may give one of the following Shiny Gubbinz to an ORK CHARACTER. Named characters such as Ghazghkull Thraka cannot be given any of the following Shiny Gubbinz – they have their own unique wargear."
Tiberius501 wrote: Hey guys, I know it’s probably a bad list but, I was wandering if I could get some opinions on how this list would fair in competent-casual sort of games. I don’t play tournaments and such but we tend to have competent lists.
Spoiler:
(Battalion)
HQ - Ghazghkull
- Big Mek w/ KFF TROOP
- 30x Boyz 10x Shootas, 19x Choppas, Boss w/ 2x Choppas (Skarboyz)
- 30x Boyz 10x Shootas, 10x Choppas, Boss w/ 2x Choppas (Skarboyz)
- 10x Grots
- 10x Grots
ELITE
- 5x Meganobz w/ Klaws and Kustom Shootas
- 10x Nobz w/ Big Coppas and Choppas
(Spearhead)
HQ - Big Mek w/ SSAG
HEAVY SUPPORT
- Bonebreaka
- Bonebreaka
- 2x Deff Dreads w/ 2x Klaws, 2x Saws
- 3x Mek Gunz w/ KMK
smasha guns are generally better than kmk's
smasha is 33pts(with 2 pts increase in CA2019 :( )
kmk is 60 pts
for a similar points cost you can bring 2 smasha for each KMK meaning each d6 Heavy becomes 2xd3 Heavy with smahsas
2xd3 Heavy is better than 1xd6 Heavy because the minimum result from 2xd3 is 2 but the minum from 1d6 is 1
2xd3 Heavy is better than 1xd6 Heavy because the minimum result from 2xd3 is 2 but the minum from 1d6 is 1
2d3 is kind of weird.
So obviously flooring yourself to 2 is better than 1.
But the chance of getting the maximum number of shots is 50% harder. ( chance of getting 6 shots on 2d3 is 1/9 vs 1/6 on a d6)
Basically it tends to more rolls in the middle of the distribution, which is overall a good thing.
Wounding high toughness is the ONLY benefit KMK has over Smasha, and its a rather small one.
Average 2D6 is 7 and against T7/T8 that means the Smasha has average odds of wounding while the KMK wounds T7 on 3s.
Very slight benefit, but i massively prefer multipel D3 shots over a D6, extra range on a Heavy platform means it doesnt move as much (if at all), extra wounds for the 2nd smasha (that cant spill over as theyre separate units), and no Gets Hot problems.
KMK has no business being that expensive. I was expecting it to drop to at least Traktor levels, but of course all that really changed is smasha went up 2pts...i dont see that affecting anything
As i mentioned several pages ago it technically is priced about right, its 6x KMBs basically with slightly better range. But since its random shots and on a platform that loses kulture perks....its actually overpriced. Random shot weapons shouldnt be priced for maximum shot potential and i swear the Ork weapons are (i dont feel like my admech random shots or knight random shots are priced expecting max RoF at all)
Nah that's not true.
Wounding with smasha is better than average 7.
You will wound a toughness 7 model with 21/36 chance that's about 58 percent. (8% percent better than a str 7 weapon.
A t8 Modell = 42%
A kmk wounds T7 on = 66,6%
Vs t8 = 50
But kmk has lower shoots
And don't forgot dakka dakka dakka.
Two smasha with 2d3 shots + dakka dakka dakka =4,666 shots average.
One kmk is average 4,0x gaks with dakka dakka dakka
To be fair, the Tempestus Scion Command Squad cost stayed the same at least. Though I am somewhat shocked they dropped so much, so they'll actually be viable CP battery battalion alternatives to taking the usual loyal 32. Barebones they don't do much beyond mid game objective grabbing.
But before the take-homes, I fielded a warboss on bike from FW. 95 points base. But at this point I am still unsure what datasheet to use with him. When for the index one so the base warboss with PK goes up to 108pts. Is there an official datasheet for the FW warboss on bike?
About the game itself.
- 5xkoptas with tbshoota for 150 point are ACE.
- dread with 2kmb lacks CC. We knew this already but the point drop only helps if massed. Not a fan.
- 2x scrapjets are annoying but kill little.
- flash gitz are an absolute must. Run 6 on a trukk and they killed marines as if there was no tomorrow.
2 doubts.
A) can i deepstrike the koptas turn one? I know something changed with faqs and stuff but the codex is very clear in the description.
B) Showing off allows you to shoot again to the closest unit. What if that unit is in CC? Is the show off then lost?
- dread with 2kmb lacks CC. We knew this already but the point drop only helps if massed. Not a fan.
I'm not a fan of shooty dreads either, I'd rather spam koptas or meks if I want cheap KMBs. I only see dreads as full CC units. BTW I haven't seen killa kanz with KMB in the legends pdf, aren't two kanz with KMB better than a dread with 2 KMB? No kultur re-rolls, but BS4+ and two bodies instead of one.
They were certainly overpriced at 110 points but with some kultur re-rolls and in a heavy armored list they could work. How much are they now after CA? A single KMK looks overpriced for many players but it's 60 pts and have very similar damage output than the buggy while just a bit less resilient. Two of them are basically a single scrapjet (before CA) but far superior than the buggy in anything but close combat.
- flash gitz are an absolute must. Run 6 on a trukk and they killed marines as if there was no tomorrow.
I agree, 5 or 6 in a trukk with an ammo runt are really effective in the marines meta but still quite good against pretty much any other army while not being a points sink. I played them a lot in this edition as I favor vehicles/walkers/artillery based lists. After CA they're definitely a competitive option unless you go pure green tide maybe.
Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote: A) can i deepstrike the koptas turn one? I know something changed with faqs and stuff but the codex is very clear in the description.
Nothing that has not been on the board during deployment can enter the board during turn 1. This is why Da Jump works, but tellyporta doesn't.
B) Showing off allows you to shoot again to the closest unit. What if that unit is in CC? Is the show off then lost?
Kebabcito wrote: Why is flash gitz a good option after CA? As far as I remember, there wasn't any chance in them, in Badrukk or in trukks/BW.
Mostly the meta goes in their favor as primaris start to be the norm, high volume of wounding on 3+ ap -2 damage 2 are marine killers. They also drop 6 pts each.
But before the take-homes, I fielded a warboss on bike from FW. 95 points base. But at this point I am still unsure what datasheet to use with him. When for the index one so the base warboss with PK goes up to 108pts. Is there an official datasheet for the FW warboss on bike?
About the game itself.
- 5xkoptas with tbshoota for 150 point are ACE.
- dread with 2kmb lacks CC. We knew this already but the point drop only helps if massed. Not a fan.
- 2x scrapjets are annoying but kill little.
- flash gitz are an absolute must. Run 6 on a trukk and they killed marines as if there was no tomorrow.
the former 86 base cost is referencing the Index biker datasheet. Safe to assume you use that for now unless another datasheet appears.
Regarding Dreads -- I still think its way better to build the dreads as a utility unit (similar to how the FA options often are, Megatrakk can shoot and is okay in CC) than a straight up CC unit. And like most things Orks, you need redundancies, so you probably want to field them in pairs at minimum.
The Tellyporta -> Ramming speed thing is a bit discouraged by the current meta (marines can use infiltrators to keep them out of range), so we should have slogging as an option. If you also go the tellyporta route, you're pretty much locked into Evil suns (Ramming speed only affects 1 Deff Dread), which seems to flatline for me once they hit combat. The Deathskull rerolls seem to really help smooth out their damage in combat.
If you're slogging up, it's nice to have the option to shoot. 2x KMB dread has a 70.4% chance of hitting at least once per turn, with subsequent wound and damage rolls -- definitely good against multi wound heavy infantry and vehicles.
4 attacks with a re-roll to hit and wound shouldn't be that far off of the 5 or 6 attack Evil Sun version. Has anyone tried just running up CC dreads in a pinch?
It could be worth experimenting with a unit like:
Deathskulls
1 Klaw, 3x saw
2 saw, 2kmb
2 saw, 2 kmb
Runs you ~250 points. You can tellyporta this unit and shove the CC one in someone's face for sure if the matchup seems good for it, and the other 2 dreads still have a 60% chance or so of making the charge -- or if that option seems bad, you use the CC dread as a distraction (move and advance it), while the other 2 provide shooting support while they get into position.
T1nk4bell wrote: I play deffkulz dreads with 2 kmb 2 klaws
= 1,16 hits average with kmb rerolling wound and dmg And meele 3,3 hits average with rerolling a wound.
And you have the deffkulz spike luck sometimes you hit 3 or more with kmb
What you guys think about flash gitz now with the reduce?
I think it’s about .88 hits no?
2 die: one hits .3333, other .5555, so .889 total or so. Explosion here I doubt adds another .25 or so.
Gits were already good. 20% cheaper means they are better.
Problem is keeping them alive without being freebooters. The battlewagon is a bit pricy but might work in a more mechanized list. I think the better option is a deathskull trukk though.
Why not run a deff skulls dragsta instead, it hits on 3s instead of 5s. Both received a substantial cost reduction.
I can't get over the clownish speed of a death skulls deff dread, you'd be moving 5" a turn. If you wanted to run you're shooting on 6's. That's not ideal.
TedNugent wrote: Why not run a deff skulls dragsta instead, it hits on 3s instead of 5s. Both received a substantial cost reduction.
I can't get over the clownish speed of a death skulls deff dread, you'd be moving 5" a turn. If you wanted to run you're shooting on 6's. That's not ideal.
They have base 6” move. So it’s 9-10 move with advance vs 11-12.
And there’s no point having guns on the evil suns dread. I don’t mind a 30” threat range for the KMB.
You don't move, you teleport moving dreads are crappy as hell
Yes as evil sunz full meele is the best option.
The funny thing is a deffskull dread with two claws makes average 7,222 dmg on a t8 chassi in meele ( + the 2 kmbs before)
An evil Sun dread with 2 klaw 2 saw do 4,44 with klaws + 1,18 saws so 5,58 overall with +1 on charge.
That means the deffskull do more meele dmg with less meele weapons AND has two kmbs ( average 1,16 hits) and has a 6++.
( kmb average a bit more than 3,0 dmg average VS t8 Amor 3)
So overall the deffkulz dread with 2 kmb 2 klaws that comes into meele do more than 10 dmg)
An fully meele evil Sun 5,58.
So one deffskullz dread with two kmb 2 klaws is nearly double the dmg than an evil Sun one.
And that means if you Tellyport 3 deffskullz dreads with 2 klaw 2 kmb and two get into combat you make massiv more dmg than 3 evil Sun dreads that came fully meele into meele
And that means as example 3 dreads deffkulz with 2 kmb 2 klaws ( two come into meele one fail will do about 23 dmg vs t8 Amor 3
VS three evil Suns where all come into meele do 16, 5 dmg and are less survivable
So, is it correct you can't use Loot it! on a unit which ride (trukk or wagon) is just destroyed? This since the models are only on the table after the trukk is destroyed and not at that moment which is required by the strategem?
Order of operations is: roll for Explode (deal damage to enemy units if they are within range), Disembark within 3" (remove any models that you cannot fit within 3"), roll 1d6×number of models that Disembarked (6s mean you lose an additional model), use Loot-It Stratagem, remove the Transport from the field.
How much AP-3 weapon is common in turn 1 alpha strikes?
Wondering for a buggy spam if Concealed Positions may be worth it. 3+ save vs shooting, only gets worse than a KFF under AP3 (and is the same or better below).
So a friend of mine is selling his orks: about 200 (at least 120) boyz, a few trucks, a battlewagon, some Killa Jan, I think a deathdread too, Gazkhull, about 20 nobz and some characters. No cards, no codex.
For 200€.
Would it be worth it
1/ price wise
2/ game wise ?
T1nk4bell wrote: You can ( was in a faq).
If 12 boys are in a truck and the trukk is destroyed you can loot it.
That's great to hear!! Any idea which faq that was?
don't over think things dude wording is in the stratagem
"Use this Stratagem when a VEHICLE unit is destroyed. Select an ORK INFANTRY unit from your army that was either within 3" of the vehicle or embarked within it when it was destroyed."
Page 127 – Stratagems, Loot It!
Change the first and second sentences of rules text
to read:
‘Use this Stratagem when a Vehicle unit is destroyed.
Select an Ork Infantry unit from your army that was
either within 3" of the vehicle or embarked within it when
it was destroyed. Improve the Save characteristic of that
infantry unit by 1 (e.g. a Save characteristic of 6+ will
become a Save characteristic of 5+), to a maximum of 2+
He wasn't overthinking. Just asking what faq it is in. Answer is ork faq. So no need to search though rulebook faq. Or others(sometimes those too have relevant stuff in true gw style)
I just need to post this here because I feel some orks will find this amusing and I don't know where else to go
I was just in a tournament where an ork player had 2 SAGs and 1 SSAG
I was slated to go first - (Deploy full army first then go first)
He seized (1/6 chance)
Then his SSAG went critical (1/12 chance - 1/72 chance total)
Then his SSAG fired again, and went critical (1/12 chance - 1/864 chance total)
Then he fired his first SAG, and it went critical (1/12 chance - 1/10368 chance)
Then he fired his second SAG, and it went critical (1/12 chance - 124416 total)
Then turn two, he fires all of them again. And they all go critical (1/12^3 - 1/1728 - 1/214990848 chance total)
No rerolls or anything. Just pure 11+ SAGs. What did I do to piss off mork/gork.
I just thought some orks here might appreciate this
Wow looks like you took the bad luck card these day My record with just one ssag was 54 dmg in one shot VS a 4++ knight But I also get not one kill vs a guardsmen.
Vilehydra wrote: I just need to post this here because I feel some orks will find this amusing and I don't know where else to go
I was just in a tournament where an ork player had 2 SAGs and 1 SSAG
I was slated to go first - (Deploy full army first then go first)
He seized (1/6 chance)
Then his SSAG went critical (1/12 chance - 1/72 chance total)
Then his SSAG fired again, and went critical (1/12 chance - 1/864 chance total)
Then he fired his first SAG, and it went critical (1/12 chance - 1/10368 chance)
Then he fired his second SAG, and it went critical (1/12 chance - 124416 total)
Then turn two, he fires all of them again. And they all go critical (1/12^3 - 1/1728 - 1/214990848 chance total)
No rerolls or anything. Just pure 11+ SAGs. What did I do to piss off mork/gork.
I just thought some orks here might appreciate this
So, I've bought CA19 this weekend and a look through it has yielded an interesting result for me - Fortifications.
I used them a fair bit in 7th, has a skyshield and 2 aegis lines, and had a vengeance weapon battery and a bastion before I looted them into superheavies, and I simply hadn't seen them or heard of them being used in 40k in 8th.
I've thrown together a list, which I won't detail out exactly - it comprises of 2 SAG meks, 33 lootas, 2 firestorm redoubts (double-quad-Icarus lascannons) and a macro-cannon aquila stronghold.
The gist is to have 3 fortifications which I plonk down and shoot out of for as much of the game as possible. it came in at 2k and I think it's fairly un-competitive, and won't do well for taking objectives (had 1 unit of bikers for points-filling and mobility) but will have a lot of firepower from a T10 20-wound lump which I can shoot out of even if it's been charged. Icarus lascannons hit flying things (repulsors, waveserpents) on a 4+, fliers on a 5+ and everything else on a 6+, but luckily there's 8 shots per fortification. It's 16 lascannons and a macro-cannon, in addition to lootas, SAG and SSAG. It should do well at both clearing out the enemy and surviving their return fire (total of 70 T10-ish wounds to clear the fortifications out).
Has anyone found any use for fortifications with their Orks? They seem pretty useful for a protected firebase.
tulun wrote: How much AP-3 weapon is common in turn 1 alpha strikes?
Wondering for a buggy spam if Concealed Positions may be worth it. 3+ save vs shooting, only gets worse than a KFF under AP3 (and is the same or better below).
It's definitely worth it, since many of the high ROF weapons have low AP, but are great at destroying buggies - also krak missiles, grenade launchers etc usually have AP-2.
Yeah he's considering that one to be in cover on turn 1. Good if there's not that much LOS blocking terrain and want to skimp on KFF at the expense of 2CP half the time.
In a vehicle heavy list, I'd always use the stratagem just because it mitigates so much damage, and LOS blocking doesn't protect you from everything. Vehicle often don't get cover due to size and terrain rules, plus you can just deploy where you want to start - most buggies have just 24" reach, you can't afford having them drive around a building and lose shooting T1. Having +1 save across the board is worth 2CP.
For infantry based armies, not so much. Neither 6+ t-shirts nor 5+ mek guns are worth pushing.
Tiberius501 wrote: Is it better to go 3 units of 20 boyz or 2 units of 30?
Always 30, as being 20 you are in the threshold of losing 1 boy and the aura of +1 attack.
Also you need 30 to maximise your chances of resisting with one or two orks left, so you can green tide back to 30. Also greentiding back to 20 boyz is not as much fun
Tiberius501 wrote: Is it better to go 3 units of 20 boyz or 2 units of 30?
Always 30, as being 20 you are in the threshold of losing 1 boy and the aura of +1 attack.
Also you need 30 to maximise your chances of resisting with one or two orks left, so you can green tide back to 30. Also greentiding back to 20 boyz is not as much fun
Yep sweet. I’ll make both blobs Skarboyz too. Do Skarboyz return with Greentide, or do they come back as normal boyz?
tneva82 wrote: Yeah he's considering that one to be in cover on turn 1. Good if there's not that much LOS blocking terrain and want to skimp on KFF at the expense of 2CP half the time.
It’s not really skimping.
It’s better against AP0 and AP1, equal against AP2, worse against AP3+.
I’d you’re mostly facing AP2 or less, your damage mitigation is going up for less investment.
Also don’t have to keep your army huddled together
My issue with that stratagem is the majority of the shots hitting me turn1 are heavy shots, i.e. the high AP stuff, so im back down to my KFF regardless.
Really all it helps is against autocannon type stuff, but the way i deploy they generally cant hit anything other than a Boy (in KFF anyway) or a T7/8 vehicle they arent that great at hurting.
My opinion on that might change now that buggies are going to be in every list i bet lol. Autocannons WILL hurt buggies reliably.
Vineheart01 wrote: My issue with that stratagem is the majority of the shots hitting me turn1 are heavy shots, i.e. the high AP stuff, so im back down to my KFF regardless.
Really all it helps is against autocannon type stuff, but the way i deploy they generally cant hit anything other than a Boy (in KFF anyway) or a T7/8 vehicle they arent that great at hurting.
My opinion on that might change now that buggies are going to be in every list i bet lol. Autocannons WILL hurt buggies reliably.
Well if you play with 4-5 buggies, it’ll be hard to keep them all in KFF. And if they aren’t spread out, they are an explosion risk.
It’s also 3CP to make your KFF huge vs 2CP to just add a cover save.
I’d only do this in a vehicle heavy list, of course.
In the past i typically had 3 KFFs (Wazbom, Mork, Bikermek which of course i can only play in friendly games now) so i didnt use that KFF stratagem either. Actually i usually forget its a thing.
But yeah i agree, keeping that many buggies in there would be difficult. I havnt even tried to make a list with the new points yet so not even sure what im dropping for buggies. But i for sure want them in there now that theyre priced right.
Give away too many VP? And Mek Gunz didnt? Same mentality, big unit splits into many small units that technically destroying 1 triggers when something is destroyed rules. Also im not aware of FA slots giving points unless were talking points in kill matches. Mind you i dont play ITC, im only vaguely aware of its rules just by listening in on it. That new painting rule they recently put out makes me not wanna even attempt to play any ITC tournaments on its own.
That is one thing i know ITC did was killpoints was supposed to be per 100pts not per unit, because the per unit thing horrifically put horde armies at a disadvantage.
If they reverted that...thats kinda bs.
Vineheart01 wrote: That is one thing i know ITC did was killpoints was supposed to be per 100pts not per unit, because the per unit thing horrifically put horde armies at a disadvantage.
If they reverted that...thats kinda bs.
Could be that. Either way, that puts the Megatrakk out of ITC competitive play. I guess the squig buggy too if anyone is taking that seriously
But the KBB, Snazzwagon, and Dragsta are below that 100 point threshold. They are pretty squishy all things considered, though, so maybe they are still a BGH liability.
We're playing Orkz. Everything is squishy. That said, running Buggies alongside Infantry is gonna end poorly for ya. But in a "pure" Mechanized List? Half your opponent's weapons are gonna be whiffing against them. You'll be fine.
flandarz wrote: We're playing Orkz. Everything is squishy. That said, running Buggies alongside Infantry is gonna end poorly for ya. But in a "pure" Mechanized List? Half your opponent's weapons are gonna be whiffing against them. You'll be fine.
The format you play will matter though.
But if you don’t play ITC, nothing to worry about.
Kill points is one of the dumbest things ever.it just makes no sense. Mayb kill points for killing game points but not for units that's... One of the biggest housemade balance changes everywhere
Run 10+ Flash Gitz, Dragsta, Kustom Boosta Blasta, Deffdread with 4 KMC and Deffkoptaz in most of my friednly games and got an over 100 points drop in those lists. Might stock up smashas since i was waiting for them to get killed by CA points increase but seems like we got another year of smashing.^^
Or just max out on 30 Flash gits. All those Marines get really annoying and my gitz seem to be the best answer to them.
Running 2-3 waggons with wazbom, gorka and the other stuff might not be the most effective list but makes a lot of fun in friendly games.
What I'm saying is: it really doesn't matter what format you run cuz everything we got is "squishy" (aside from Ghaz and maybe MANz). You're gonna give up kill-points, there's really no way to get around that. So, you gotta focus on earning more VP than your opponent. Orkz have some real strong suits in the game, and if you play to them, you'll do just fine. Buggies or no Buggies.
Yeah, 10 Gitz taking out that many Marines seems like an anomaly. I'm still happy for ya, but I feel like that's the exception, rather than the norm. Your opponent would pretty much have to be ignoring them for your Gitz to average out that much over the course of the game. And you'd probably still need some lucky rolls.
Stationary gits with more Dakka and two runts is pretty nuts. Before explosions, captain hits twice, 3rd likely hits on the reroll. Others generate another 13.5 hits, getting you up to 17... then you add explosions ( captain gets the priority of explode rerolls of course).
Probably puts you close to 22-25 hits? Not even including baddruk.
If you proc that shoot twice, I could see gits downing 300+ points in 1 round pretty easily.
tulun wrote: Stationary gits with more Dakka and two runts is pretty nuts. Before explosions, captain hits twice, 3rd likely hits on the reroll. Others generate another 13.5 hits, getting you up to 17... then you add explosions ( captain gets the priority of explode rerolls of course).
Erm, don't you have to indicate which models explode using different coloured dice or something? You surely can't just decide to add the exploding dice to the model with the best BS in the unit? Obviously normally it's no problem as most units have models with the same BS and don't explode.
T1nk4bell wrote: Hmmm first test game vs ultra Marines today with flash gitz. 10 man flash gitz killed about 440 points of Marines pretty nice
Sounds..... Odd. In a Trukk? What was your/your opponents list?
Na jumped them together with 30 boys and 7 Manz via Tellyport together in round two.
Hmm as I remind he had 6 aggressors, 2x10 intercessor, 2x devestator with grav and laser, chaplain, chapter master, Ltd and another hq, thunder fire cannons, 2 dreads ( the ones with double onslaught gating. Think I miss something bit dunno what ( 1750 points game)
I just made high pressure, the gitz where dead after two rounds shooting. But they killed enough
Yeah the Kaptin' needs to be rolled on his own. You only roll bulk dice if they need the same result and have the same profile.
Kaptin' has the same profile but different accuracy.
tulun wrote: Stationary gits with more Dakka and two runts is pretty nuts. Before explosions, captain hits twice, 3rd likely hits on the reroll. Others generate another 13.5 hits, getting you up to 17... then you add explosions ( captain gets the priority of explode rerolls of course).
Erm, don't you have to indicate which models explode using different coloured dice or something? You surely can't just decide to add the exploding dice to the model with the best BS in the unit? Obviously normally it's no problem as most units have models with the same BS and don't explode.
No, you’ve misunderstood.
You get rerolls from runts, you could save it for the kaptin on initial shots or explosive ones.
Although it may just be better to save them for any misses that haven’t exploded ( with kaptin getting priority )
Kaptin averages 2.66 hits (using an Ammo Runt Reroll)
Gitz average 16.25 hits (using an Ammo Runt to reroll).
Total of 18.91 hits. Against T4, that's an average of 12.6 Wounds, and after 5+ Save (taking into account AP, but not any Cover) that's 16.8 Damage. Or about 8 Marines dead. If you Moar Dakka, that number obviously goes up (not quite double, but the math is starting to move out of my ballpark on this one).
Automatically Appended Next Post: The issue with "saving them" is that you have two scenarios. 1) the Kaptin shoots first, you use an Ammo Runt (or two), and then you have an abnormal number of misses with your Gitz. 2) the Gitz shoot first (and miss a few), you "save" the runts, then the Kaptin doesn't miss any of his shots.
tulun wrote: Stationary gits with more Dakka and two runts is pretty nuts. Before explosions, captain hits twice, 3rd likely hits on the reroll. Others generate another 13.5 hits, getting you up to 17... then you add explosions ( captain gets the priority of explode rerolls of course).
Probably puts you close to 22-25 hits? Not even including baddruk.
If you proc that shoot twice, I could see gits downing 300+ points in 1 round pretty easily.
the only tactic i can think of with flashgitz is to have afreebooter army turn 2 teleport a Morkanaut to within 24" , da jump (or teleport) a flashgit unit next to the naut, kill something with the Morkanaut to trigger Freebooterz: Competitive Streak (target something soft) to push the gits hit rolls back to +4 and use more dakka and start laying down the pain with the flashgitz.
hope the Morkanaut KFF protects the flashgitz when they shoot back
i can't think of much better maybe someone else can.....
With more dakka and without penalty the captain if he use one ammo runt he gets 3,55 hits average The rest 18,66 one ammo runt and more dakka include.
So 22 hits average if you don't move
With moving its 2,66 on captain
And 12,44 rest
So 15 hits average.
Against primaris I'd would be
Without moving = 9,77 dead primaris or nearly 5 dead aggressor
With move = 6, 66 or 3 and a half dead aggressors
And if you're lucky and spend cp for shooting twice chance to 30,55 chance to shoot twice.
If it procs its totaly spiked dmg
It's all about good wound roll or bad save role here than the gitz can spike a lot
if you have limited rerolls, always shoot with whatever you want the reroll for the most first.
I guarantee every time you fire the chaff and save the reroll, when you fire the main weapon...didnt need it.
Also thats assuming the ammo runts are even alive. My regular nobz' runts die pretty much the moment they can be shot at all because "nobz scary" - well, flash gitz are legitimately scary.
T1nk4bell wrote: With more dakka and without penalty the captain if he use one ammo runt he gets 3,55 hits average
But then that's no More Dakka on your SSAG, Tank Bustas or Lootas.
What are their numbers like without MD, when moving? Realistically unless you are completely controlling the game your opponent isn't going to just waltz his most optimal targets into the range of the Gits. Particularly Intercessors who out range them comfortably.
The CP reroll for shooting again with them is a trap I feel, firing twice less than a third of the time for 1 CP is not a good investment.
Without more dakka =
Stationary :
Captain with one ammo runt reroll and normal dakka dakka dakka = 3,11 hits
And rest with one reroll from the other ammo runt
16,33
Together =19,44 without moving and without any bonus
With moving captain 2,33 and 10,88 rest
So 13 overall.
Well yes but I never use more dakka on ssag mek and I don't use lootaz or bustas .
With the ssag I have the philosophy it spikes or not I shoot it twice but almost never more dakka it
Jep the reroll on shot again is mostly wasted for sure!
But when you have its awesome
And if you are under Freeboter proc and Stationary the gitz are crazy as hell ( never had that
Tbh, I don't really know if tankbustas need more dakka, unless they are getting hit with negative modifiers -- 5+ rerolled is already pretty insane with shoot twice.
I generally use more dakka to get around hit modifiers, but it is nice on Flash Gitz because it might push them into wiping out certain units (and they get quite a few rerolls).
Lootas do benefit for sure. But I think Lootas are generally falling out of favour anyway, as they aren't as good in the marine matchup anymore (variable shots, often hitting 2+ cover saves, even if they have autocannons).
I think we might start to see Gits replace Lootas if we start finding good ways of keeping them around at least two turns. Tankbustas are the real deal vs vehicles, gits against heavy infantry, Lootas are sort of in this middle ground we try to avoid.
More Dakka is generally only really worth it if you are facing negatives to hit (as it ignores those) or you have a stupid rate of fire.
Full Flash Gitz might have the rate of fire to justify it, but most of the time they'd be hitting 5man Primaris squads wouldnt they? i dont think they'd need it to remove that few models since only 5 need to get through.
Ye lootas is without mkb up and just 1 ap just a bad thing atm
A 15 man squat lootas kill average 11 primaris ( with double shoot and more dakka (4 cps for that no ty.)
And if they have cover or are salamander you're.......
And they need grot shild
One of the things I love about Flash Gits is they are very cp efficient.
They potentially need no CP to function (Put em in a trukk to protect them instead of grot shields), and can really only use more dakka. They need 1 CP for Loot it for trukk mode, and maybe if you want to gamble on that shoot twice roll.
Comparatively you might be burning 5 CP a round to really get the most out of your Lootas... without including grot sheilds (more dakka, shoot twice, and command roll for avoiding 1 shot per loota)
I still prefer to footslog them. Besides IH nowadays feels like everyone rush at you. Last three months I maybe had a game where I went over midfield. I'm still trying to get a working list with 20 MANz and the FG. Dunno if it worth to loose 2 MANz for the banner honestly
Emicrania wrote: I still prefer to footslog them. Besides IH nowadays feels like everyone rush at you. Last three months I maybe had a game where I went over midfield. I'm still trying to get a working list with 20 MANz and the FG. Dunno if it worth to loose 2 MANz for the banner honestly
How are you keeping them alive? Are you taking freebooter grots?
Tiberius501 wrote: How many points did flash gitz go down? I’m thinking of adding 10 to my list with a Trukk. But I need to somehow take 200-odd points out to do so :(
Unfortunately I may have to remove the 2 Deff Dreads even though I just got them, cos they seem like a weak link. This makes me much sadness.
It’ll cost you 312 for the kit with 2 runts. Get them. Cheap wounds and they’ll pay for themselves in one round of shooting.
Wow they got like a whole Trukk cheaper then, that’s amazing.
So here’s the list I was thinking. I still want to include the Deff Dreads because I just bought them haha.
Spoiler:
—[Goff Battalion]—
HQ - Ghaz
- Big Mek in mega armour w/ basic loadout and KFF - Weirdboy w/ Da Jump
TROOPS
- 30x boyz w/ 10x shootas, 19x Choppas, Boss w/ 2x Choppas
- 10x Grots
- 10x Grots
ELITE
- 5x Mega Nobz w/ basic loadout
- 10x Nobz w/ Big Choppas and Choppa, Boss w/ Klaw and Choppa
TRANSPORT
- Trukk
- Trukk
—[Goff Spearhead]—
HQ - Big Mek w/ SSAG
HEAVY SUPPORT
- Bonebreaka
- 2x Deff Dreads stock loadout (ideas for points to get more Klaws?)
- 6x Smasha Mek Gunz
- 10x Flash Gitz w/ 2x Ammo Runts
My main concern is not enough bodies but I do have roughly 80 models including vehicles. Thoughts?
Emicrania wrote: I still prefer to footslog them. Besides IH nowadays feels like everyone rush at you. Last three months I maybe had a game where I went over midfield. I'm still trying to get a working list with 20 MANz and the FG. Dunno if it worth to loose 2 MANz for the banner honestly
How are you keeping them alive? Are you taking freebooter grots?
Yup. Just now 60 of them but I'm confident less is enough. I play with loads of terrain ITC and once I m done feeding my adversary Kill more a couple of turn on grots, I m already in position and I blew up back lines.
I don't think the trukk is a good choice.
You loose Badrukk rerolls and can't use any strats on them beside MD.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Plus for me would be the only veichle. Red iz not Fasta, Red iz Ded.
First and second turn he destroyed trukk, battlewagon, deffkoptas, grots and 30 boyz, I though I was about to lose, but I rushed all his army with 30 boyz+mekff+painboy+warboss+weirdboy and destroyed his whole army, like old times
I lost anyways cuz we were playing a new CA mission and he grabbed more points, I'm satisfied anyways since my army was not competitive (0 smasha guns, 0 lootas, 0 flash gitz) and still crushed him
Just looking at maybe kitbashing some flashgitz together to add to my deathskullz and I might be able to squeeze them in with some smasha gunz in there own freebootaz detachment, because who knows, might trigger that +1 to hit with the smashas.
Question is could I dump the flashgitz from my freebootaz detachment into a trukk from my deathskullz and if so could I do it during deployment? It'll grant the truck a 6+ invul (better than nothing) and a reroll if to hit/wound which might make the rokkit launcha marginally more attractive.
It feels like something you shouldn't be able to do, but I can't see a reason why not.
All ork transports are specifically allowed to let FlashGitz and Badrukk (because he has the FlashGitz tag) embark them even if they are not freeboota.
The drawback is the unit in the transport will never benefit from the Freeboota +1 if something CAN trigger it. The transport itself has to be freeboota for that to work (open-topped rule confers modifiers to the embarked unit, this is a modifier). But generally if you are wanting Freebootas outside flashgitz you should have a mono-kulture of them imo to maximize that +1 potential.
I agree with Vine. Freebooterz is really an "all or nothing" Kultur. Fortunately, you can field Gitz and Badrukk in any Kultur (they just don't benefit from it), so unless you need Freebooter Grots for Shields, you're best off just throwing them into whatever Kultur you feel like.
Yeah, it's a real shame that it's hard to splash freebootas.
There are tons of units we wanna take that are optimally deathskullz, evil sunz, or Bad moonz. And only taking a small detachment is still worth it.
It's probably the main thing holding Gits back. If grot shields could apply to <clan> units OR Flash Gits, I'm pretty sure they would be everywhere.
Honestly, the best splash I can think of for a Freebootas Spearhead detachment would be like:
12 Mek Gunz (another 6 if you're feeling cheeky). As low as 2 of them if you just want the minimum viable detachment.
1 full unit of Flash Gits
Grots to taste (30 or so?)
Baddruk
Mek Gunz are actually optimally freebootas because they can help trigger the +1, and don't really care about kultures otherwise. Hopefully the Mek Gun will proc it for your Gits.
Nice thing about this too is that you might already be taking Mek Guns anyway, Flash Gits, *And* baddruk. It just means you have another HQ slot elsewhere, and maybe some extra grots. The overall investment in a lot of the bog standard armies is actually quite low.
If I was feeling extra cheeky too, I'd surround my Flash Gits with some Deffkoptas. They can't explode, and if they target them, you can loot them and buff your Gits. If they ignore them, they'll be able to shoot freely for a few rounds.
Of course, at this point, you might as well buy another HQ and get it as a batallion... but I don't think 2000 points can support a 4 bat army realistically. You'd have to drop 1 of the other kulturs.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Quickly tossed together with gits detachment. Only sub optimal unit are the MANz
Issue with using Mek Gunz to Proc is that they're almost always gonna be tucked back in your deployment zone, while the Gitz need to be mid-field. That, and the "easy" stuff to Proc on (chaff units) are really suboptimal for Smashas to attack.
And that's the big thing with splashing Freebooterz: any unit killed by another Kultur doesn't Proc the +1. And that +1 is pretty much the only reason to use FBs in the first place (unless you REALLY need some Grots to protect your Gitz). 99% of the time, you'd be better off fielding a different Kultur that can benefit other units in the Army.
For example, in the list you did up: if your third Battalion was Evil Sunz, you could move your MANz over there and have far more successful charges (and better movement on this terribly slow unit). That's kinda the deal with Freebooterz; unless you go "all in", you're almost always gonna have a better Kultur choice with only minimal list shifting.
Most of the list is vehicles and Big Meks, both KFF Meks and possibly the SAG Mek too are to heal vehicle units.
SSAG because mandatory. Grots for limited board control, CP and to shield SSAG. Deff Dreads tellyport of slog, depending on opponent.
I appreciate Evil Sunz probably isn't the best choice for most of the list but I like to play my own sub faction where possible. Tempted to add another KFF and/or remove SAG (standard).
Bikes and Buggies are T1 threat and ideally screen clear. Mork trundles up as quick as he can. SSAG, Mork, KKBike boss, SJD and MTSJ are AA. Deffdreads are Primaris killers with AA potential.
flandarz wrote: Issue with using Mek Gunz to Proc is that they're almost always gonna be tucked back in your deployment zone, while the Gitz need to be mid-field. That, and the "easy" stuff to Proc on (chaff units) are really suboptimal for Smashas to attack.
And that's the big thing with splashing Freebooterz: any unit killed by another Kultur doesn't Proc the +1. And that +1 is pretty much the only reason to use FBs in the first place (unless you REALLY need some Grots to protect your Gitz). 99% of the time, you'd be better off fielding a different Kultur that can benefit other units in the Army.
For example, in the list you did up: if your third Battalion was Evil Sunz, you could move your MANz over there and have far more successful charges (and better movement on this terribly slow unit). That's kinda the deal with Freebooterz; unless you go "all in", you're almost always gonna have a better Kultur choice with only minimal list shifting.
Yeah, I agree. I'd rather not take Freebootas at all.
The bigger question is, can you take Gits without grot shields? If not, it's a necessary evil. Staying within 24" might be possible with Gits / Mek Guns, but yeah, the Gits could stretch too far.
I'll probably experiment with them in a Trukk first, honestly. Although having a phalanx of grots / FG / maybe a boyz unit on a flank has some appeal. You could pair them with Mad Dok to make them really annoying and about as tanky as you could possibly make these units.
@English: The main issue I see is that you're actually pretty light on vehicles, but that's a symptom of the 3 Battalions. Remember that vehicles aren't as CP hungry as Infantry, so you can probably get away with just two. You also have a LOT of Anti-Armor, but your chaff clearing is very light. If you drop a Battalion, use the spare points to get a couple more KBBs and/or another Biker unit. I'd drop the Snazzwagon and field another KBB, as well.
@Tulun: Gitz being cheaper means a Trukk works just fine as protection. Even if they get wiped, you're not losing as much investment. A Trukk costs about as much as 21 Gretchin, and we all know how easy those are to get rid of. But, in the end, I think which one you go for will be determined by your list type. Mechanized will obviously prefer a Trukk, while Infantry might go with Grots instead.
I appreciate a man sticking to his clan but are you sure about not running as Deff skulls? I have used my buggies and Dredds sparingly but when I did DS always performed better for me then ES. I'm not experienced enough to critique it further but I do love your list, it's close to what I'd run if I had the models. Please let us know how it fares.
flandarz wrote: @English: The main issue I see is that you're actually pretty light on vehicles, but that's a symptom of the 3 Battalions. Remember that vehicles aren't as CP hungry as Infantry, so you can probably get away with just two. You also have a LOT of Anti-Armor, but your chaff clearing is very light. If you drop a Battalion, use the spare points to get a couple more KBBs and/or another Biker unit. I'd drop the Snazzwagon and field another KBB, as well.
@Tulun: Gitz being cheaper means a Trukk works just fine as protection. Even if they get wiped, you're not losing as much investment. A Trukk costs about as much as 21 Gretchin, and we all know how easy those are to get rid of. But, in the end, I think which one you go for will be determined by your list type. Mechanized will obviously prefer a Trukk, while Infantry might go with Grots instead.
Trukk build is much cheaper in reality. 21 Grots likely isn’t enough. And you’re also likely taking 1 extra HQ in this situation if you just take a detachment; or sacrificing one of the better cultures.
In the infantry style, maybe bad moons is the weakest link here. They are best on tankbustas and Lootas. You could probably take enough Mek guns and SAGs to cover yourself on anti tank, and if you’re desperate, just use them in deathskulls as a weaker backup.
DS is still good for a lot of shooty options we might wanna take (Dakkajets, all the buggies...).
It might be fun to try like a block like this:
Grots in front, supported by a KFF, mad dok, FG, and mega nobs. Boys if desired. Make a strong thrust in the middle. Even your Grots have a 45% save rate under KFF and FNP, it’ll be more annoying than it seems to take that down.
flandarz wrote: @English: The main issue I see is that you're actually pretty light on vehicles, but that's a symptom of the 3 Battalions. Remember that vehicles aren't as CP hungry as Infantry, so you can probably get away with just two. You also have a LOT of Anti-Armor, but your chaff clearing is very light. If you drop a Battalion, use the spare points to get a couple more KBBs and/or another Biker unit. I'd drop the Snazzwagon and field another KBB, as well.
Yea it's funny - I was thinking the same thing with regards to dropping a batt. But then I do love me some CP and I figured the extra SAG/KFF Mek actually provide some utility in the list with their repair shenanigans.
Another Bike unit is pointless, though I'd consider filling the one out to a full 12 man squad. Why drop the Snazz for another KBB? I like the idea of -1 to hit, 4+ explosion and the anti-chaff is roughly the same but has greater range?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Castozor wrote: I appreciate a man sticking to his clan but are you sure about not running as Deff skulls? I have used my buggies and Dredds sparingly but when I did DS always performed better for me then ES. I'm not experienced enough to critique it further but I do love your list, it's close to what I'd run if I had the models. Please let us know how it fares.
Lol a man loves his Evil Sunz, I love the mobility too much. I'll keep you posted how it goes for sure!
