That list is very similar to the one I'm currently experimenting with, you are basically just swapping bonekrushas for dreads.
Some things I learned:
- One KFF mek and morkanaut is plenty to cover your entire army. You don't really need the extra KFF and the two meks will be left in the dust once the army has made its first turn.
- I think I have yet to repair anything with a mek, pretty much anything is dead if targeted or nowhere near a mek.
- I had great success with a killsaw on the warbiker nob, ignoring all armor for a vehicle and instant-killing primaris marine can make the difference for a unit that doesn't do a lot of damage when there is no chaff to shoot.
- Something I had a lot of trouble with was taking out units with good saves. In future, I'll bring a weird boy just for the smite.
- Exhaust Cloud is usually a waste of CP.
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An Actual Englishman wrote: Why drop the Snazz for another KBB? I like the idea of -1 to hit, 4+ explosion and the anti-chaff is roughly the same but has greater range?
Don't forget the random range on the explosion. I hope you have better luck with your snazzwagon, but mine hasn't even been a competition for the KBB on the table. -1 to hit never mattered, because it would only be shot to score a maelstrom objective and ignored otherwise.
At range, they're roughly the same. But the KBB is WAY better anti-chaff in close, because of its Burnas. It also has a Spiked Ram, which can also help whittle down a chaff unit. The KBB is also slightly better against Marines, due to D2 rather than D1 on its main gun.
Thanks both, I'll add Killsaw to biker Nob. Last game my KBB killed 2 banshees and nothing else. It hit NOTHING with its rivet gun all game On KFF perhaps I should swap Mork for Gorkanaut? Also adds chaff clear.
All - do you reckon there's any play with a 'Mek Vehicle repairomatic Orkapalooza' list or should I give up? I have a (nicely painted, if I do say so myself) Weirdboy I was thinking of taking for jumping Meks where needed. I'm taking KFF ones because they're now our cheapest repair option outside of minimeks (but one wound repair seems meh).
So, loving flashgitz and their points to damage output atm but keeping them alive can be tricky. Having mek guns or koptas near them to use loot it is pretty handy as is havimg a bunch of grots around to use grot shields.
But ive been thinking. What about a defence line? Keep them right behind it and a unit or two of grots between the line and them. In theory the grots would be out of los but still usable for grot shields. And after loot it your gitz have a 2+.
flandarz wrote: At range, they're roughly the same. But the KBB is WAY better anti-chaff in close, because of its Burnas. It also has a Spiked Ram, which can also help whittle down a chaff unit. The KBB is also slightly better against Marines, due to D2 rather than D1 on its main gun.
I know that's pretty much what I wrote a couple of month ago, but from playing a pair of KBBs a couple of times, the best way of using them seems to be driving up to some objective campers like scouts, rangers or similar and unload all the low range stuff on them - then use the rivet gun to hurt targets which really don't like getting shot by 2 damage weapons, like primaris, T7 or less vehicles or characters. Since their melee isn't worth anything, I only use the spiked ram to assassinate characters or finish off units/vehicles. I really want to have the KBBs shooting all game, and not fighting some chaff with WS4+ and no AP.
I definitely want multiple KBBs now. Probably gonna proxy my Snazzwagon as one for awhile, since i never plan to use the Snazz anyway. Its still terrible imo. Though i keep having like 40-60pts short of 2k lol and its REALLY irritating me. Perhaps its time i made some mek gunz...
@Cody: Gitz don't have the best range, so hiding them behind a Defense Line AND Grots is gonna severely limit what they can shoot. A savvy opponent will just stay outside that 24" (less with all that bubblewrapping) range until the Gitz are dead. Gitz work best as a mobile gunline; in a Trukk, footslogging with Grots, or Da Jumped where you need them.
@Jid: That's fair. I was just pointing out that it was an option, and one the Snazzwagon sorely lacks.
@Flanderz A solid point to be sure. But this combo of hidden grots and bait smasha guns for loot it can ensure your gitz live past the first turn. After that they can move up the field or react to enemies that are moving to take mid field objectives. I think for me they're meant to form the anchor of sorts while other units flank or hunt objectives.
I had never thought of using mek guns or deffkoptas for loot it, I had only considered trukks, wagons and enemy vehicles.
Now I'm considering bait mek guns and a full unit of 30 'ard boys, loot it for 4+ saves and then endless green tide in behind the enemy (or jump if they still have enough to survive!). Enemy will always go for mek guns, and will then find the 'ard boys are 'arder, and then might struggle to kill them.
Thinking bloodaxe for a 3+ save on boys! Aegis for a 2+!!!
An Actual Englishman wrote: Thanks both, I'll add Killsaw to biker Nob. Last game my KBB killed 2 banshees and nothing else. It hit NOTHING with its rivet gun all game On KFF perhaps I should swap Mork for Gorkanaut? Also adds chaff clear.
All - do you reckon there's any play with a 'Mek Vehicle repairomatic Orkapalooza' list or should I give up? I have a (nicely painted, if I do say so myself) Weirdboy I was thinking of taking for jumping Meks where needed. I'm taking KFF ones because they're now our cheapest repair option outside of minimeks (but one wound repair seems meh).
If you already have 2 KFFs and you're evil sunz, so no re-rolls on kustom mega weapons, I think the gork is maybe the best option. Definitely worths a try, at least.
I play vehicles heavy so the ability of repairing something comes to play very often. Not that it makes some huge difference anyway, but I take SAG big meks and KMB meks only for their shooting and to fill up mandatory slots; the repairing ability is just a free bonus, not something to build a list around it.
KBB aren't great but just good. Their main weapon looks powerful on paper but orks have BS5+, never forget that. However at 80ppm they're considerably cheaper than other buggies and the rivet kannon doesn't compete with many other weapons so they have their niche. The other two most efficient buggies are anti tank kitted instead, for an army that have plenty of options for that role.
some bloke wrote: I had never thought of using mek guns or deffkoptas for loot it, I had only considered trukks, wagons and enemy vehicles.
Now I'm considering bait mek guns and a full unit of 30 'ard boys, loot it for 4+ saves and then endless green tide in behind the enemy (or jump if they still have enough to survive!). Enemy will always go for mek guns, and will then find the 'ard boys are 'arder, and then might struggle to kill them.
Thinking bloodaxe for a 3+ save on boys! Aegis for a 2+!!!
Aegis doesn't stack with bloodaxe trait, and blood axe trait doesn't work if the enemy is within 18", which is kind of bad for a unit with melee focus and 18" guns.
If you can make loot it+'ard boyz work, go for it. I haven't tried yet, but that doesn't mean it won't work.
some bloke wrote: I had never thought of using mek guns or deffkoptas for loot it, I had only considered trukks, wagons and enemy vehicles.
Now I'm considering bait mek guns and a full unit of 30 'ard boys, loot it for 4+ saves and then endless green tide in behind the enemy (or jump if they still have enough to survive!). Enemy will always go for mek guns, and will then find the 'ard boys are 'arder, and then might struggle to kill them.
Thinking bloodaxe for a 3+ save on boys! Aegis for a 2+!!!
I've actually run this for quite a number of games. I actually went deffskulls though I tried blood axes and it can work well too. The increased offensive capacity of deffskullz was better in my opinion.
List is a brigade with something like 3x30 shoota boyz all with with 'ard boyz strat, 30 odd gretchin, then 3 deffkoptas, a couple of buggies, a meganob missile with meks with kustommega guns on-board with grot oilers for ablative wounds, a few smashas, warboss on bike with killa klaw + a few variable bits and pieces such as kans or deffdread. Weird boy was mostly to da jump gretchin into good positions.
All your fast things with vehicle key words you run up the board asap, making it look as threatening as possible, if people shoot the boyz you pop the grot shield strat and people often get fed up and shoot the more immediate threats, the vehicles. You make sure each vehicle is close enough to boyz be looted though. Each turn you loot up one vehicle and make 30 boyz 4+ save and give them a grot shield unit of gretchin as body guards. Now the opponent needs to put a decent amount of effort into removing them (certainly not impossible but they can be quite durable). When the unit is down to almost 10, you pop them in a ruin near an objective. I pop a klaw on the boss nob in each squad as with defskulls it has often done some decent work, though not necessarily reliably. They put out a little damage from mid field and have a decent melee threat range from the ruins giving good board control froma position of strength. Turn 3 I usually end up with 2 squads of about 15 odd boyz in a ruin on an objective rolling 3+ saves against most anti-infantry weaponry. I have managed it on all 3 units before, but 2 is usually the figure. As the deathwatch player commented, "my god its like you've got 20 marines on each of those objectives", which in turn 1 wouldn't be that hard to shift but by turn 3 can cause serious issues if you gave proper target priority to shooting phases, your meganobz (occasionally they do make it into combat!) and your missile of death that is the warboss on bike. Not sure if this list is valid now (can we still use the warboss on bike?) as I've not played it for a few months.
I've played against pretty competitive lists, DE, castellan (pre-nerf) + AM mortar spam + custodies captains, ynnari reaper spam (pre beta-codex) and a lot of more casual list some of which seem like potential hard counters (death watch) and I've had some good games. Certainly not won them all, castellan list beat me of course, but I took the castellan down, and the captains as well as most the guard before finally loosing on points.
Give it a whirl, its fun to play as long as you are playing a meta which isn't all about the best of the best lists and my favourite part of all, you get to play a ton of different units that you don't care if they die early.
I did write a report of some the games I played, but it was rather verbose so I decided not to post. I can do if anyone would be interested.
This might have been mentioned earlier but is it possible to run Flash Gitz in a dread Waaagh kulture. Shoot with them, on a six shoot again, 2cp shoot normally again, on a six shoot again with the potential of shooting 4 times.
some bloke wrote: I had never thought of using mek guns or deffkoptas for loot it, I had only considered trukks, wagons and enemy vehicles.
Now I'm considering bait mek guns and a full unit of 30 'ard boys, loot it for 4+ saves and then endless green tide in behind the enemy (or jump if they still have enough to survive!). Enemy will always go for mek guns, and will then find the 'ard boys are 'arder, and then might struggle to kill them.
Thinking bloodaxe for a 3+ save on boys! Aegis for a 2+!!!
One issue is what if opponent doesn't bother with mek guns before blowing up boyz first? Albeit 4+ helps but not that much especially with ignore cover stuff around.
Also does loot it carry on with greentide? Generally it resets ingame buffs. After all thematically it's more of same type, not same ones risen from grave
As others have said: using Loot It on Blood Axe 'Ard Boyz probably won't work out. There's a few issues with it. First, you've now spent 2 CP to give your unit a 4+ Save in a meta where dealing with Marines means pretty much all anti-infantry weapons are throwing out AP-2. Second, Mek Gunz are only threatening against mechanized lists, so if your opponent is fielding infantry (again, this is a Marine Meta, so a fair number of lists are gonna be heavy on infantry units), they won't bother with your Smashas. Third, if your opponent is savvy, they ain't gonna give you a chance to use Loot It in this way. Gitz in a Trukk can work because your opponent doesn't have an option to shoot your Infantry first. Boyz on the table doesn't work as well.
Loot It SHOULD carry over with EGT because it changes the Save Characteristic of the unit. Looking at EGT, it says to set the unit back up at full starting strength, rather than "set up a new unit of Boyz". Since it's mechanically the same unit, any Buffs (such as Loot It or Warpath) that are affecting the unit should still carry over, in the same way that they carry over when you Da Jump a unit.
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Hogiebear wrote: This might have been mentioned earlier but is it possible to run Flash Gitz in a dread Waaagh kulture. Shoot with them, on a six shoot again, 2cp shoot normally again, on a six shoot again with the potential of shooting 4 times.
Gitz don't gain the DREAD WAAGH Keyword, so they can't use Kustom Ammo.
Gitz can be in the Dread Waaagh but like Flandarz said they dont get the keyword, only meks and walkers get that. And that specific strat requires the keyword.
Im hoping when they inevitably give orks the custom kulture thing theyre giving everyone else they fix blood axes and snake bites. They are so useless atm. Having cover army-wise when our saves suck is nice until you see the range limited is way too long for all except our few backfield units, which are usually already in cover anyway.
The only use I came up with for Snakebites is in a Kan wall list to mitigate their extremely poor LD. But even then you'd be playing a list that is both bad and horribly unfluffy. But looking over what some of the others got from their PA I'm not holding my breath on it suddenly making our weak clans worthwhile.
Honestly, LD6 ain't that bad. Not for Kanz anyway. Generally, they're gonna either wipe (or nearly wipe) the whole unit (because Kanz), or they'll ignore them. In the former situation, you're probably best off just trying your luck in that last Kan (who still has a 16.6% chance to pass Morale with a max-size Kan unit). Even assuming your opponent only takes out half the unit (3 in a 6 Kan squad) you still got a 50% chance to lose no one else to Morale, which would probably be worth a Command reroll, rather than devoting a character and Warlord trait to babysitting them.
But all of that is quite aside from how subpar the unit still is. They're not that tough, not that killy, and pretty dang slow. I don't know if the point drop was really enough to make them worth fielding (though I guess 180 pts for 30 T5 3++ Wounds isn't awful...).
it really isnt.
We were talking about this before CA19, Kanz either need access to kultures or need to be as cheap as MANz or even cheaper to justify the fact that they dont have amazing shooting, unreliable (yet strong) melee, slow, squishy, and have virtually no rules or stratagems to speak of.
Bloodaxe culture I can see some uses for - I am planning to use it for a list with 2 battlewagons and 3 killtanks (or vice versa) so that I can't get bogged down in combat too easily. Increased killyness without the drawbacks of falling back and not shooting - I can move, shoot, charge, stop an enemy unit from shooting because of the charge, inflict mortal wounds, and if still in combat in my turn I can fall back and still shoot. Turn 1 cover for kill tanks gives them a passable save and from then on it's just fluke if they're over 18" away.
Snakebites I see as moderate for high wound models like stompas, gargantuan squiggoths, and kill tanks - in short, some of our worst units. But as these will be the ones targeted by D6 damage weapons, having 6+++ will be better than a deffskulls 6++, especially couples with a KFF. Snakebites are renowned for having the biggest tanks, right?
thats pretty much the reasoning i use House Taranis for my knights when i field them along my admech.
That 6+++ on a high wound model is annoying, it generally keeps it alive a full turn longer than it should. The amount of times that has kept my knight at 1 wound so i get another turn with it is laughable.
Sadly, knight a stompa is not. Still about 150pts overpriced.
Also, 3 killtanks? jeez thats terrifying to think of (also what 1300pts?)
List that leans into slogging gits in a push up the board. Keep the Grots, gits under KFF, and keep painboy aura on them plus the mega nobs aiming for the Center / their end.
Couple concerns:
1) my distraction boy squad isn’t worth it
2) My SSAG, SAG, and Mek guns are all I have for destroying vehicles.
I’d also love to squeeze in a deff kopta or two as a possible loot it bait for the gits. Not in love with all these Mek guns, but it’s my cheapest anti tank I can buy without bad moons.
Tulun, you might wanna update battlescribe. 10x flashgitz should be 248pts not 308. And Smashas went up 2pts
You have 40pts not being used atm. Shed the extra random grotz you could squeeze a kopta w/ rokkits in there. (note: Biker boss is "Legends" now. Basically if you allowed Index before hes still legal but note that he has DakkaDakkaDakka now properly)
Biker Boss isn't Legends (no datasheet in there). No idea why he isn't, but speculation is that he'll be released with a KFF Mek sometime in the future.
Technically we have a Warboss on Biker profile at 95 points as an official option in the CAFW section for Orks, though the problem is that we technically don't have a datasheet for that, but I think most people would be fine with using the Index profile for that in the time being.
Vineheart01 wrote: Tulun, you might wanna update battlescribe.
10x flashgitz should be 248pts not 308.
And Smashas went up 2pts
You have 40pts not being used atm. Shed the extra random grotz you could squeeze a kopta w/ rokkits in there.
(note: Biker boss is "Legends" now. Basically if you allowed Index before hes still legal but note that he has DakkaDakkaDakka now properly)
Is the new data out? Seems like it’s still under the old one.
Thought mine worked out to 1999 points.
Ah yup. I had to delete and reinstall to download it :p
Looks like if I scrimp the grots down to 30 on freebootas, I can take a basic deffkopta (I'd rather the rokkit one to be honest, but I'd be 10 points over) and I can add a grot to either the 2nd SAG or Big Mek for an ablative wound.
Any other thoughts? Seems like it could be fun. I just worry that 30 grots won't be enough for the Gits. A 5++, 6+++ does give them a 45% chance of shrugging off shooting, though.
Decided to drop 2 boys, down to 28, and upgrade to Kopta Rokkits. Harder to ignore 2 Rokkits that get a reroll to hit / wound over a twin big Shoota.
If that’s directed towards me, souped up shock attack gun ( relic version ).
Well, it was a question to everyone, but thanks for answering.
What do you guys prefer, 8 smasha guns or 15 lootas? I've got a space in my 1500p list since I completely removed the trukk+10 nobz, absolutely useless.
If that’s directed towards me, souped up shock attack gun ( relic version ).
Well, it was a question to everyone, but thanks for answering.
What do you guys prefer, 8 smasha guns or 15 lootas? I've got a space in my 1500p list since I completely removed the trukk+10 nobz, absolutely useless.
I’d probably say 8 smashas, but it sort of depends on your list.
If that’s directed towards me, souped up shock attack gun ( relic version ).
Well, it was a question to everyone, but thanks for answering.
What do you guys prefer, 8 smasha guns or 15 lootas? I've got a space in my 1500p list since I completely removed the trukk+10 nobz, absolutely useless.
I’d probably say 8 smashas, but it sort of depends on your list.
2x30 boyz
10 gretch
Warboss
MeKFF
Painboy
Weirdboy
Tankbusta in a battlewagon
3 deffkoptas
I need moar dakka, need some backline to help my team
Kebabcito wrote: You guys right, my point of view was "lootas worth cuz I'll spend my CP in them" but they will die first turn.
My trukk with big chopper nobz was such a fail, they did nothing in any match I've played
I'm probably one of the few people here who likes the Nobby boys, but I think the optimal ways to use them are:
1) Turn 1 bonebreaker charge -> Turn 2 jump out and charge
2) Da Jump -> Charge. Hide them behind / in cover first turn so they have a 3+ save or can't be shot if you don't go first.
3) Tellyporta -> Charge. Use them as a distraction boy squad replacement (so lose a Da Jump boy squad for cheaper nobs).
I think 2 or 3 are the better ways. The Bonebreaker way is quite expensive, unless you're already doing that sort of thing. Requires a Wartrike too. Add in some grots for ablative wounds.
some bloke wrote: Bloodaxe culture I can see some uses for - I am planning to use it for a list with 2 battlewagons and 3 killtanks (or vice versa) so that I can't get bogged down in combat too easily. Increased killyness without the drawbacks of falling back and not shooting - I can move, shoot, charge, stop an enemy unit from shooting because of the charge, inflict mortal wounds, and if still in combat in my turn I can fall back and still shoot. Turn 1 cover for kill tanks gives them a passable save and from then on it's just fluke if they're over 18" away.
The thing you're missing here is that nothing ever wants to stay in combat with a deffrolla unless it has a decent chance of smashing it to bits.
The vast majority of my games as blood axes not a single unit could ever fall back because:
- The ork unit was dead. Ork units are squishy and tend to not survive two turns of combat
- The enemy unit was dead. Ork are pretty killy in combat, so few units survive two turns of combat
- The enemy left combat on their turn to shoot the orks/not get killed
Both the fallback and the cover save matter so rarely, you might as well just not have a culture at all. On top of that, both the stratagem and the warlord trait are pretty useless. Literally any other clan is better.
Snakebites I see as moderate for high wound models like stompas, gargantuan squiggoths, and kill tanks - in short, some of our worst units. But as these will be the ones targeted by D6 damage weapons, having 6+++ will be better than a deffskulls 6++, especially couples with a KFF. Snakebites are renowned for having the biggest tanks, right?
...right?
Not sure whether you are joking. Snakebites is somewhere on the same level as goff - decent relic, decent stratagem, culture that works for pretty much any unit... but none of that is really going to win you a game, unlike evil suns, deffskulls or bad moons.
Deffskulls is awesome because of the re-rolls. More dead enemies is a better defense than having 16.66% more wounds on your units.
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flandarz wrote: Biker Boss isn't Legends (no datasheet in there). No idea why he isn't, but speculation is that he'll be released with a KFF Mek sometime in the future.
flandarz wrote: Nice model. Where's rhe datasheet? Which is kinda what I was talking about?
That's the problem at the moment. Its under the FW section but we only have Zhadsnark in the actual IA Xenos rules. So it seems like we would still use the Index profile as a stopgap for now since there's nothing explicitly official about it.
What Grimskul said. There's no "official" FW Biker Boss, and though it has a datasheet in the Index, the speculation that a datasheet will be released alongside the KFF Mek is still plenty valid. For that matter, what are you doing with the KFF Mek, which also has points in CA? Just using Big Mek points and giving him a KFF (possibly included in the cost)?
No, he is right - you can save a wound more than once, which brings you up to 20%. Which doesn't change that snakebites still aren't great.
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flandarz wrote: What Grimskul said. There's no "official" FW Biker Boss, and though it has a datasheet in the Index, the speculation that a datasheet will be released alongside the KFF Mek is still plenty valid. For that matter, what are you doing with the KFF Mek, which also has points in CA? Just using Big Mek points and giving him a KFF (possibly included in the cost)?
Technically, the rules tell you to pick a datasheet to represent your model. There isn't actually any rules to tell you what source to use, except the datasheets from instruction manuals telling you to use your codex and the index flowchart. Common sense dictates that you always use the newest iteration of a datasheet, because otherwise things like the new Space Marine codex wouldn't make sense.
Therefore, for running a Warboss on Warbike, you simply use the one datasheet available for that.
I seriously doubt that there will be a datasheet released for the Biker Warboss alongside with the KFF mek, because one is a GW model and one is now a FW model - those have never been in the same rules source.
Also technically, the KFF mek is an illegal model right now, since the Big Mek lost its ability to take KFF and the other entry doesn't have a datasheet yet. It's also 100% safe to assume that the Big Mek with Kustom Force Field is paying 20 points for the KFF, just like every other model with a KFF.
Vineheart01 wrote: thats pretty much the reasoning i use House Taranis for my knights when i field them along my admech.
That 6+++ on a high wound model is annoying, it generally keeps it alive a full turn longer than it should. The amount of times that has kept my knight at 1 wound so i get another turn with it is laughable.
Sadly, knight a stompa is not. Still about 150pts overpriced.
Also, 3 killtanks? jeez thats terrifying to think of (also what 1300pts?)
I'm not sure how my old list worked (lost the file), just made a new one and it's not as scary, think perhaps my old one was 3 battlewagons and 2 kill tanks instead of vice versa.
I'm still 50:50 on snakebites or bloodaxes but I think the 6+++ and the buzzbomm is swinging it for me. haven't got my 'dex to hand (using battlescribe), pretty sure buzzbomm is one use only but it doesn't say so on 'scribe, am I right in that? If not, could be an amazing charge deterrent...
Do you have any buggies? That list seem predestined to run a bunch of them. I would just drop all the boyz and battlewagons for gretchin and cram in as many buggies as you can fit..
Well, if you use Goffs you can always resort to use Buzzgob (FW big mek) who has a KFF. 75 points but better stats than the normal one and has mek arms (3*base attacks).
I've not got many buggies - honestly I have 2 conversions which can pass as buggies. I do however have a couple of trukk kits, some old landspeeders, and a spare stormtalon, so I have scope to make 2-3 buggies. What do you guys think would mesh best with 2 killburstas and a killblasta?
I would say the current top crop of the buggies at the moment are shokkjump dragstas and megatrakk skrapjets, since they both provide fairly reliable anti-tank and in the case of skrapjets, can get stuck in CC and do damage besides being on the charge. Depending on if you're looking for anti-infantry, throw in one KBB.
A more casual version I’m going to try on Saturday. I don’t own a billion Mek guns anyway and they are boring.
4 detachments in 2000. I have no idea if it’ll work but at least it’ll be fun.
General idea: turn 1 warpath nobs for 6 attacks each, have then da jump and unleash chaos backline. I move my shell forward towards a Center objective and slaughter something with my gits. TB live in tellyporta and show up turn 2/3 to crack exposed vehicles.
Turn 2 and beyond, I get my MANz into a juicy spot and have them camp or put pressure on a weak part of the line. Hopefully my death ball can survive a few turns.
Pretty much as survivable as I can make my infantry.
Your SSAG needs bubblewrapping to be safe. While Gretchin aren't necessary for this, they're cheap and Grot Shields can help defend ya from snipers too.
Sorry in advance for such a broad question. I haven't been studying/keeping up with all the details in the current meta since 6 months ago. Can anyone give me a quick snapshot of what to look out for when it comes to marines? Or problem units/strats for orks in general?
On a side note, from the little that I have seen and from my past experience, it's starting to feel like power creep is starting to out-grow orks. Even with the points drops on FG and buggies, they still don't look appealing. neither do MANZ or boys. Hopefully PA can bring something that will help these units.
GreenTidePackers wrote: Sorry in advance for such a broad question. I haven't been studying/keeping up with all the details in the current meta since 6 months ago. Can anyone give me a quick snapshot of what to look out for when it comes to marines? Or problem units/strats for orks in general?
On a side note, from the little that I have seen and from my past experience, it's starting to feel like power creep is starting to out-grow orks. Even with the points drops on FG and buggies, they still don't look appealing. neither do MANZ or boys. Hopefully PA can bring something that will help these units.
The only one I regularly play against is Ultramarines, and pure-primaris at that, but I can give you this rundown:
1: don't try to tie them up in combat because they will just walk away and do what they want anyway, because they're ultramarines. If not ultramarines, you can stop something from shooting after your first turn using a sacrificial deffkilla wartrike, who can charge a helluva long way (and can use ramming speed to charge even further!)
2: Kill the repulsors as fast as you can, specifically the one which can shoot twice if it doesn't move over 1/2 its move. From turn 2 they will switch to tactical doctrine, their bolters will get better AP, and everything will count as stationary, even if it moves. Because they're space marines.
3: have SAG's and SSAGs. There's nothing nicer than completely ignoring a marines save. SSAG with big things killer for +1 to wound vehicles is a beast at killing repulsors, and even if it rolls S2 it wounds on a 5+, most of the time it wounds on a 4+, and deathskulls rerolls usually puts a lot of unavoidable wounds down. then pop 2CP to shoot twice, if it needs to. Once the tanks are dead, prioritise by order of saves and wound count. don't waste a SAG on marines unless you have to.
4: It's troops that win games - once the scary tanks are gone, kill their troops. they don't often have many, and this can be the difference between holding an objective and losing one.
I'm trying to theorycraft a list that would deny 4 points on all but one offensive ITC secondaries which are:
- Gang Buster (kill 6W models)
- Big Game Hunter (veichle)
- Butcher's bill (kill 2 unit in one turn)
- Reaper (kill 80 models)
- Headhunter (kill a character)
Gang buster means no mek gunz. Hard but the Aussie list with 20 MANz might be the answer
BGH easy to achieve limiting yourself to 3 veichle with more than 10W
Butcher bill is kind of a bitch beachse of grots and gunz are so easy to pick out, aswell buggies and trukk
Reaper is also hard to counter because even the 20 MANz list have 90 grots, as STARTERS...
Headhunter is easier to counter than you might think. having 5-6 character means you force your opponent in a hard position to achieve all 4 points. Especially with orks, with grot shield and basically, weirboy in the back and maybe a warboos going hail Mary.
I would run Vanguard (if that's the HQ& Elites one, but that's the one I mean anyway). Have weirdboys and load up on full units of MANz. Don't bring any vehicles, and if you need troops, go for full 30-man squads of boys.
Use Da Jump and tellyporta to get the MANs into combat. If you feel you need fire support, I recommend taking a fortification and putting lootas and a SSAG in there. It's not a vehicle, so that one's covered, but it will help defend your shooting units from return fire. They're also tough nuts t ocrack, and with MANs down the enemies throat, they won't bother trying to kill it.
You'll have fire support, anti-flier, no vehicles to kill, the hardest units in our 'dex to kill, characters hidden in a fortification (embark the weirdboy after da jump, hide behind beforehand), nothing 6W+ except the fortification, low model count, and a fairly fun & unexpected army to play with.
I was wrong about fortifications not being vehicles, but it is a 20W T8 3+ vehicle, so no the easiest nut to crack.
Idea is to hide lootas and SSAG in the redoubt, and this will be your firebase, with 8 6+ (4+ on flying units, 5+ on fliers) lascannon shots, 9 lootas and a SSAG hurling death out of it. It will also be your wall - hide the MANs behind it. Turn 1, jump one unit into position. Turn 2, jump another and tellyport a third. Reserve the last for a late-game jump.
to combat the objectives:
- Gang Buster (kill 6W models) - only one on the board, and they will want to worry about your Meganobs.
- Big Game Hunter (veichle) as above
- Butcher's bill (kill 2 unit in one turn) unlikely, with either 30 T4 2+'s in a unit or 20 T8 3+'s.
- Reaper (kill 80 models) not even got that in this list.
- Headhunter (kill a character) they will both be hiding in the fortification (weirdbo can hop in if it looks like he will be threatened).
It also looks like a helluva fun list, and if I ever amass 40 Meganobs I may have to try it!!!
Hi
Back to the game after half a year break!
Good news that Flashgitz got a point reduction, I really like the miniatures!
I got 10 of them, how would you suggest is the best way to field them?
- One big squad or two small?
- On foot with grot shield or in a trukk/ BW?
- Is it worth to include KAPTIN BADRUKK for 10 Flashgitz?
I also intend to have a few FREEBOOTERZ smash kannons to trigger the COMPETITIVE STREAK
Thanks for reply in advance!
I was wrong about fortifications not being vehicles, but it is a 20W T8 3+ vehicle, so no the easiest nut to crack.
Idea is to hide lootas and SSAG in the redoubt, and this will be your firebase, with 8 6+ (4+ on flying units, 5+ on fliers) lascannon shots, 9 lootas and a SSAG hurling death out of it. It will also be your wall - hide the MANs behind it. Turn 1, jump one unit into position. Turn 2, jump another and tellyport a third. Reserve the last for a late-game jump.
to combat the objectives:
- Gang Buster (kill 6W models) - only one on the board, and they will want to worry about your Meganobs.
- Big Game Hunter (veichle) as above
- Butcher's bill (kill 2 unit in one turn) unlikely, with either 30 T4 2+'s in a unit or 20 T8 3+'s.
- Reaper (kill 80 models) not even got that in this list.
- Headhunter (kill a character) they will both be hiding in the fortification (weirdbo can hop in if it looks like he will be threatened).
It also looks like a helluva fun list, and if I ever amass 40 Meganobs I may have to try it!!!
This is very close to what I was thinking, an elite army of orks, but I will NEVER own 40 MANz....
Emicrania wrote: I'm trying to theorycraft a list that would deny 4 points on all but one offensive ITC secondaries which are:
- Gang Buster (kill 6W models)
- Big Game Hunter (veichle)
- Butcher's bill (kill 2 unit in one turn)
- Reaper (kill 80 models)
- Headhunter (kill a character)
I must say, I'm baffled how the ITC guys came to the conclusion that this is a good rule design. You are basically punishing people for bringing diversified armies on top of the game itself already punishing your for it. I really hope this format goes to die with the new maelstrom rules.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nora wrote: Hi
Back to the game after half a year break!
Good news that Flashgitz got a point reduction, I really like the miniatures!
I got 10 of them, how would you suggest is the best way to field them?
- One big squad or two small?
- On foot with grot shield or in a trukk/ BW?
- Is it worth to include KAPTIN BADRUKK for 10 Flashgitz?
I also intend to have a few FREEBOOTERZ smash kannons to trigger the COMPETITIVE STREAK
Thanks for reply in advance!
Both with gretchin and in a trukk is fine, mostly depends on the rest of your list. Usually one unit is the way to go, so you can use stratagems like moar dakka or loot it on them. Badrukk is worth bringing if you are not running a trukk - he doesn't provide the buff from inside a vehicle.
As for the mek guns, the best way to trigger competitive streak are planes. Just hop next to a character or nearly wiped unit and blow it up for the +1 to hit bubble.
whats wrong with the new maelstrom rules?
Cards are still cards and can be random but it doesnt feel even remotely as bad as before (where every 5th game is actually close, but the 4 leading up to it is like 16-2 one way or the other)
And yeah i agree, those ITC points are stupid. That legit almost feels directly intended to mess with orks as we are the only one that suffer hardcore to ALL of those categories. Kill 80 minis? So, table the guy except against Orks because they have 60 free minis to kill on average regardless of whether or not theyre trying to Green Tide things.
Vineheart01 wrote: whats wrong with the new maelstrom rules?
Cards are still cards and can be random but it doesnt feel even remotely as bad as before (where every 5th game is actually close, but the 4 leading up to it is like 16-2 one way or the other)
.
Think he was saying opposite. Let itc die because new maelstrom is better was what he meant i think
You should keep your deck thin I assume, eh? 18, maybe 21 at most (for 7 turns chance).
One odd thing is that it seems like you can just build your deck to completely ignore the markers. If you don't know if you're attack or defender outright too (or do you build your deck *after* knowing that?), you don't even know what markers you know you can place, so in a deck you wanna keep small and achieveable, objective markers seem a bit discouraged.
im probably just gonna dump all the unlikely objectives (hold all 6 objectives HAH HAHAH like thats possible w/o tabling the opponent) and the Hold Objectives, since they take a full turn to claim and unless its the objective my entire force is sitting on, any random "objective grabbers" can easily get shot off.
The way you draw makes me not want minimum cards as you can go through that deck pretty quick if you are actually completing objectives.
Vineheart01 wrote: im probably just gonna dump all the unlikely objectives (hold all 6 objectives HAH HAHAH like thats possible w/o tabling the opponent) and the Hold Objectives, since they take a full turn to claim and unless its the objective my entire force is sitting on, any random "objective grabbers" can easily get shot off.
The way you draw makes me not want minimum cards as you can go through that deck pretty quick if you are actually completing objectives.
You basically can only play 3 a round; although you can swap some out at the cost of CP, that's precious for our Orky boys. So unless you go to round 7, you normally only play 21 at most if you achieve 3 each round.
But as a casual MTG player as well, the smaller the deck the better, because you're likely to draw stuff you want. You generally want to be drawing cards you can achieve realistically *any* round, so you're not discarding / wasting cards or having to use up CP. Hence why you probably want as small a deck as possible. The scry one seems best, tbh, as you aren't discarding those objectives, just putting them back into your deck for a later round.
Because you might discard some, maybe you want a bit above the 18 minimum. I was just interested in what folks have done so far.
Actually, to be honest, going through your deck *is* a good thing... because you can always fetch up objectives back into your deck, which you can guarantee to draw the next round if your hand has 3 spots. I could see lists where, say, the pointy ear boys try to ditch their deck in order to get the psyker stratagem as many times a game as possible.
Emicrania wrote: I have two list im tinkering and planning to test during January with some hardcore players but I need Also the time to assembly and paint the MANz
I still need to do the math, but I think trading tankabusta for smashaguns might be doable, also the second list is "only" 110 models
I love this kind of list and I have been brewing similar. MANz are just too fun in an army that normally gets their gak slaughtered.
It is interesting whether you choose tankbustas or gits. I honestly think that flips depending how many vehicles you're going to fight (and you would need bad moons as the last detachment). You could do a smasha -> TB conversion as well, but I think that's also a toss up in effectiveness; Smashas really require similar guns to kill efficiently that also kill your MANz, so they are a useful distraction on the board. And frankly, t5 6 wounds for 33 points is hard to give up in a proper competitive list.
Given marines dominance and building a TAC, I might lean towards Gits as you did. I'd probably still take a biker boss over the walking boss, though, so he can rush up and support your MANz that Da Jump. Drop a Smasha, take a biker boss, give your SAGs oilers for sniper protection (even if you think you're going to use grot shields on the SSAG, helping to protect your SAGs for 4 points each seems nice).
tulun wrote: About to try the new maelstrom missions tomorrow.
You should keep your deck thin I assume, eh? 18, maybe 21 at most (for 7 turns chance).
One odd thing is that it seems like you can just build your deck to completely ignore the markers. If you don't know if you're attack or defender outright too (or do you build your deck *after* knowing that?), you don't even know what markers you know you can place, so in a deck you wanna keep small and achieveable, objective markers seem a bit discouraged.
Huh could you take more than 18? Could have sworn it's 18 exact. Anyway thin should be good.
Deck built after you know lists. After that you roll attacker/defender.
Too many hard to score for me beyond objective ones. Orks excel at board control, less at killing so for me secure's etc are bread and butter.
tulun wrote: About to try the new maelstrom missions tomorrow.
You should keep your deck thin I assume, eh? 18, maybe 21 at most (for 7 turns chance).
One odd thing is that it seems like you can just build your deck to completely ignore the markers. If you don't know if you're attack or defender outright too (or do you build your deck *after* knowing that?), you don't even know what markers you know you can place, so in a deck you wanna keep small and achieveable, objective markers seem a bit discouraged.
Huh could you take more than 18? Could have sworn it's 18 exact. Anyway thin should be good.
Deck built after you know lists. After that you roll attacker/defender.
Too many hard to score for me beyond objective ones. Orks excel at board control, less at killing so for me secure's etc are bread and butter.
Minimum is 18 You can take as many as you want.
No, that's fair. If you do the whole metric ton of boys capturing objectives is something we can do. I am going to dig in and take a look. I think the kill ones are great, because you can play them in moments you're confident you're going to achieve that objective... sure we aren't necessarily going to kill 3+ consistently, but we can shoot and krump.
The main issue I have with the objective markers, though, is simply we are agnostic of which markers we're going to control. It might be very easy for us to take certain markers and very hard to take certain ones, so it's very easily a bad tactical draw. If you knew which ones you would end up with close to your deployment zone, it would be very powerful. The hold 3 one is great for us, because it isn't marker specific.
Before when you had to hold objective markers just to draw cards, it encouraged board control as any army -- now, you might be able to build around not caring so much about board control. Orks may not be in that camp, though.
Pardon me sporebrothers but got a question, why no ranking for Big Trakks or Big Squiggoth on the first page? Rest of our FW Stuff is on it, is there some reason they were left off?
T1nk4bell wrote: Hmm. Drop the evil Sun warboss Kombi rocket, drop the doc 77 points for something useful
Don't you think painboy is useful? I could get 2 more smashas but maybe is worth rushing 60 boyx, warboss, mekff and painboy with ssag and smashers in my deployment zone
Ok, so I’m looking to put together a larger unit of flash gitz, but don’t particularly have any love for the models, especially at £30 for 5. I’ve got a unit of 5 Nob heavies painted up as commandos which I’ve used as FG before, which I like the feel of. I was thinking buy a couple units of nobs, and doing more of the same/kitbashing. Has anyone else found good alternative models for FG or any experience of kit bashing them? Are there enough heavy weapons in a box of Nobs to make up 5 heavies?
Emicrania wrote: I have two list im tinkering and planning to test during January with some hardcore players but I need Also the time to assembly and paint the MANz
I still need to do the math, but I think trading tankabusta for smashaguns might be doable, also the second list is "only" 110 models
I love this kind of list and I have been brewing similar. MANz are just too fun in an army that normally gets their gak slaughtered.
It is interesting whether you choose tankbustas or gits. I honestly think that flips depending how many vehicles you're going to fight (and you would need bad moons as the last detachment). You could do a smasha -> TB conversion as well, but I think that's also a toss up in effectiveness; Smashas really require similar guns to kill efficiently that also kill your MANz, so they are a useful distraction on the board. And frankly, t5 6 wounds for 33 points is hard to give up in a proper competitive list.
Given marines dominance and building a TAC, I might lean towards Gits as you did. I'd probably still take a biker boss over the walking boss, though, so he can rush up and support your MANz that Da Jump. Drop a Smasha, take a biker boss, give your SAGs oilers for sniper protection (even if you think you're going to use grot shields on the SSAG, helping to protect your SAGs for 4 points each seems nice).
The thing with TB is that vs Tau and typical infantry marines/bike/ relic dread lists, they wont do much more dmg than smashas. They are best vs flyspam, ONLY if they dont have Vect. Problem with smashas is that you need at least 9 in order to be effective and they give up points pretty easily. but still, they cost 2 points less of a MANz and every big gun pointed at my smashas, is a gun not pointed at my MANz.
I ll be gone for some weeks and than i have to paint and assembly, so I wont try the list before mid/end of Januari. But let´s see what happens.
Gretchin66 wrote: Ok, so I’m looking to put together a larger unit of flash gitz, but don’t particularly have any love for the models, especially at £30 for 5. I’ve got a unit of 5 Nob heavies painted up as commandos which I’ve used as FG before, which I like the feel of. I was thinking buy a couple units of nobs, and doing more of the same/kitbashing. Has anyone else found good alternative models for FG or any experience of kit bashing them? Are there enough heavy weapons in a box of Nobs to make up 5 heavies?
I've modded nobz into mechboys and warpheadz, but never into gitz. It's a neat idea actually! The plastic nob box only contains three twohanded shooty weapons. One combi-flamer and two combi-shootas. So you will have to do some modding.
Jidmah wrote: There are basically no examples of people running them and no one has any experience to report on them.
Hmm well I’ll admit I’m no competitive player, but I use mine all the time. Big Trakks are overcosted , but they can carry some of our best weapons though and they’re fast. Squiggoths are a great platform for tankbustas or flash git’s as they’re Howda rule let’s them keep shooting even when the Squiggoth is munching on something.
Turning nobs into gitzs is fairly straightforward, just remember to base them on 40's.
As for the Squiggorth, I sometimes use one and it is basically a battkewagon that trades T8 for 2 extra wounds. 10 transport cap (enough for gitz or bustas). Mele is similar to a bonebreaker. Less attacks but d6 damage. 165 vs 159 points.
For only a unit of tankbustas of 9, a battlewagon is too much. Use a trukk and spend the points elsewhere.
If you insist though, I would advise to embark a unit of 10 grot so that you can kill them instead of the bustas when it's destroyed.
The thing with TB is that vs Tau and typical infantry marines/bike/ relic dread lists, they wont do much more dmg than smashas. They are best vs flyspam, ONLY if they dont have Vect. Problem with smashas is that you need at least 9 in order to be effective and they give up points pretty easily. but still, they cost 2 points less of a MANz and every big gun pointed at my smashas, is a gun not pointed at my MANz.
I ll be gone for some weeks and than i have to paint and assembly, so I wont try the list before mid/end of Januari. But let´s see what happens.
Totes. Keep us posted.
Have you thought about squeezing in Mad Dok too? I am trying him out today with MANz as well. A 2+, 6+++ 3 wound unit seems really freakin' annoying. First turn prepared positions would have your MANz at 1+, 6+++. He's not a slouch either if he gets into combat (3+ to hit PK, 4 attacks). His aura is not <CLAN> locked, which is why he would probably be the best to take.
The thing with TB is that vs Tau and typical infantry marines/bike/ relic dread lists, they wont do much more dmg than smashas. They are best vs flyspam, ONLY if they dont have Vect. Problem with smashas is that you need at least 9 in order to be effective and they give up points pretty easily. but still, they cost 2 points less of a MANz and every big gun pointed at my smashas, is a gun not pointed at my MANz.
I ll be gone for some weeks and than i have to paint and assembly, so I wont try the list before mid/end of Januari. But let´s see what happens.
Totes. Keep us posted.
Have you thought about squeezing in Mad Dok too? I am trying him out today with MANz as well. A 2+, 6+++ 3 wound unit seems really freakin' annoying. First turn prepared positions would have your MANz at 1+, 6+++. He's not a slouch either if he gets into combat (3+ to hit PK, 4 attacks). His aura is not <CLAN> locked, which is why he would probably be the best to take.
Smashaguns and FG are THE primaris killer in our codex
You know is not a bad idea, he costs like 2 and half MANz and can be helpful, especially with healing. I'll try
Automatically Appended Next Post: At the same time I would need to give up the banner. I really need to test the list to understand if I need more survivability or attack power
With warpath, 3-4 attacks hitting on 4s isn’t too bad. 30-40 PKs is gonna wreck. Plus you’re probably losing attacks to string back to your banner guy.
Painboy aura helps any infantry or biker unit. Just needs a single model in 3”.
Harpy oneshoted first turn with SSAG, like 19 or 20 wounds roflmao.
My battlewagon (with tankbustas) and trukk (with nobs) kill his Warriors in shooting phase, I think i won here, he lost a lot. Then his geneastealers destroy all my vehicles and tripulants.
After that, my boyz just made his job and killed his troops, grabbed objectives… I won like 10-5.
I finally enjoyed playing this game and not fething crying every turn against Marines, my local meta is EVERYONE playing marines.
tulun wrote: With warpath, 3-4 attacks hitting on 4s isn’t too bad. 30-40 PKs is gonna wreck. Plus you’re probably losing attacks to string back to your banner guy.
Painboy aura helps any infantry or biker unit. Just needs a single model in 3”.
I’d probably lean towards mad dok.
I think experience will dictate the trend towards defend or offense
Played yesterday VS Astra and used 10 flash gitz on a trukk.
There weren't good targets for the gitz but they killed 2 sentinels, do 6 fmg on a tank kommander and killed 20 scions in meele ( after trukk was killed.
At the end of the game not one flash git was dead because of lot of other pressure units.
They worked pretty fine
Still testing out a freebootaz flashgit and buggie armie. The firepower is satisfying and it's a fun list that requires a bit of thought and target priority to work, but besides a few ways to buff up the gits armour and durability it doesn't feel like it has any super uber gimmicks. Just good, consistent damage output. Sadly i'm coming to the realization that we only have like, 3 useful stratagems going for us. And the list i'm rocking only really has the Supa Shokka to use command points, and that's swingy as balls.
Also, Eldar are sooo bull with their new book. Really hope we get some good traits/relics in Saga of the beast, so we can have some proper force multiplier characters.
tulun wrote: Tried the new maelstrom mission today.
I gotta say, after he got 4 rounds of the 3 psychic power objective off... was brutal lol. .
How he got that card so many times? Best I can think of is he used 2 CP stratagem to get 3 cards from discard pile but even then that's shuffle so with 18+ card deck to begin with that seems rather lucky.
cody.d. wrote: Also, Eldar are sooo bull with their new book. Really hope we get some good traits/relics in Saga of the beast, so we can have some proper force multiplier characters.
tulun wrote: Tried the new maelstrom mission today.
I gotta say, after he got 4 rounds of the 3 psychic power objective off... was brutal lol. .
How he got that card so many times? Best I can think of is he used 2 CP stratagem to get 3 cards from discard pile but even then that's shuffle so with 18+ card deck to begin with that seems rather lucky.
Eldar has two. They have their Eldar specific one and the general one.
So it was a bit of luck, but he also used a CP to scry 3. Not as unlikely as you might think with a thin deck.
I might suggest next time I play him we play the one where we can force an opponent to discard a Strat. It might be the only way to keep it under check.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also:
For those familiar with the Eldar matchup, can forewarned be used against Green tide and Da Jump?
Just tried finally to play vs IH successor chapter.
I went with FG, full TB squad with bombs, 3 SAG, 30 shoota boyz and 110 grots.
I went first
We shaked hands at the end of his T2
First time he tried the list.
We did to see if it was possible for me to do anything. No is not. If you go to tournaments and meet IH, just smile and don't stress to do anything. You will get tabled. Period.
cody.d. wrote: Also, Eldar are sooo bull with their new book. Really hope we get some good traits/relics in Saga of the beast, so we can have some proper force multiplier characters.
What exactly changed for Eldar?
They got custom traits like successors. And the upgrades for their sergeants. Imagine 9 smasha gunz able to use the deffskulls trait. And a unit if shining spears with a rerollable 2++ on their unit leader to absorb firepower. It was pretty in the slightest.
Emicrania wrote: Just tried finally to play vs IH successor chapter.
I went with FG, full TB squad with bombs, 3 SAG, 30 shoota boyz and 110 grots.
I went first
We shaked hands at the end of his T2
First time he tried the list.
We did to see if it was possible for me to do anything. No is not. If you go to tournaments and meet IH, just smile and don't stress to do anything. You will get tabled. Period.
Hold up, 110 grots?
That might be part of the reason why you lost tbh. Once you reach the 50 grots number there's diminishing returns for both board control and usage as grot shields. Obviously useful for filling out detachments, but I feel like you could put in some of that cost into Smasha Gunz or something else to add further shooting. Don't get me wrong, IH are ridiculously strong even with their recent FAQ nerfs, but grots really don't do much and you missed out on a lot of potential extra firepower.
cody.d. wrote: Also, Eldar are sooo bull with their new book. Really hope we get some good traits/relics in Saga of the beast, so we can have some proper force multiplier characters.
What exactly changed for Eldar?
They got custom traits like successors. And the upgrades for their sergeants. Imagine 9 smasha gunz able to use the deffskulls trait. And a unit if shining spears with a rerollable 2++ on their unit leader to absorb firepower. It was pretty in the slightest.
Even if orks gets exact copy of eldars smasha gun wouldn't get trait anyway. Note how chaos didn't get their trait on vehicles either...Also core traits won't be changing(again see how chaos got left with their weak traits).
That might be part of the reason why you lost tbh. Once you reach the 50 grots number there's diminishing returns for both board control and usage as grot shields. Obviously useful for filling out detachments, but I feel like you could put in some of that cost into Smasha Gunz or something else to add further shooting. Don't get me wrong, IH are ridiculously strong even with their recent FAQ nerfs, but grots really don't do much and you missed out on a lot of potential extra firepower.
50 grots isn't that much for grot screen. I have had 15 lootas blown to bits from behind 60 grots with firepower to spare. And that before numarine codex.
Also 3 battallions is pretty common for orks and you don't generally want 120 boyz so 60 grots is pretty normal. 6x10 grots, 3x30 boyz=3 battallions.
cody.d. wrote: Also, Eldar are sooo bull with their new book. Really hope we get some good traits/relics in Saga of the beast, so we can have some proper force multiplier characters.
What exactly changed for Eldar?
They got custom traits like successors. And the upgrades for their sergeants. Imagine 9 smasha gunz able to use the deffskulls trait. And a unit if shining spears with a rerollable 2++ on their unit leader to absorb firepower. It was pretty in the slightest.
Even if orks gets exact copy of eldars smasha gun wouldn't get trait anyway. Note how chaos didn't get their trait on vehicles either...Also core traits won't be changing(again see how chaos got left with their weak traits).
That might be part of the reason why you lost tbh. Once you reach the 50 grots number there's diminishing returns for both board control and usage as grot shields. Obviously useful for filling out detachments, but I feel like you could put in some of that cost into Smasha Gunz or something else to add further shooting. Don't get me wrong, IH are ridiculously strong even with their recent FAQ nerfs, but grots really don't do much and you missed out on a lot of potential extra firepower.
50 grots isn't that much for grot screen. I have had 15 lootas blown to bits from behind 60 grots with firepower to spare. And that before numarine codex.
Also 3 battallions is pretty common for orks and you don't generally want 120 boyz so 60 grots is pretty normal. 6x10 grots, 3x30 boyz=3 battallions.
Right, but he had 110 grots, at least 50 over the basic 60 grot base you mentioned. That's 150 points worth of extra stuff that just sits around to die. Not only is that tedious to manage for tournament play, but that's a fair bit of killing potential you're wasting. That was my point.
Now I am not a veteran player, but I think it rather hard to handle a multiple unit grot shield then it comes to placement and moment.
Since one model have to be close to the unit it is supposed to protect I see no other option than to weave the different (grot) unites if they also should be closer all threats. This in turn makes it almost impossible to move. Also, very hard to distinguish what unit each model belongs to. So far I have used 3 units and it makes a mess.
Any suggestion on this?
Thinking this might be a counter marine army. Impossible to play maybe in 90 minutes.
Wondering if I really need to push the Grot count above 300 and take ghazzy.
Scores via Grots, kills via smite, 3 SAGs, baddruk, and 18 Mek guns.
Thinking this might be a counter marine army. Impossible to play maybe in 90 minutes.
Wondering if I really need to push the Grot count above 300 and take ghazzy.
Scores via Grots, kills via smite, 3 SAGs, baddruk, and 18 Mek guns.
As much as I love the idea of a grot horde, that would indeed be a nightmare to unpack for a game. The other main problem is even with Smite, you're not likely to do enough damage since you don't get the WAAAGH! energy buff from grot units anymore, making each progressive casting of smite harder with little way for you to boost your casting. I would say the success of the list has to do more with your game running out of time by T3-4 before your opponent can kill through enough grots on objectives than the list itself doing really well in a tournament setting.
The problem is not in having so many grots, the problem is in 9 eliminators that kill a 1/2 char out of LOS plus 16d3 shots from 2 whirlwind and Thunderfire cannons with full rerolls and 5 space marines with grav strat that can kill or maim anything and drop down T1.
without counting smashcaptain, 20 intercessors, 15 scouts and 5 other characters.
IH are broke beyond anything I ever seen. They are worst than deathstar in 7th.
It is disgusting how they managed to break the game completly.
It requires 0 management skills. stay ouf of los and throw dices with a 90% accuracy denying any kind of counter DS with scout or infintrators or Auspex scan.
"60 Grots and 15 Lootas with firepower to spare" still seems like an outlier to me. Like, if that's average, you might as well pack up before you play, cuz they'll easily wipe anything else you fielded.
Automatically Appended Next Post: For managing multiple Gretchin units protecting a single unit, your best bet is to "layer and stagger". You should be able to easily get 4 or 5 units of Gretchin into that 6" bubble. For distinguishing, you may want to consider putting a dot of paint onto the base of each Gretchin, with each unit having their own color.
Grimskul wrote: As much as I love the idea of a grot horde, that would indeed be a nightmare to unpack for a game. The other main problem is even with Smite, you're not likely to do enough damage since you don't get the WAAAGH! energy buff from grot units anymore, making each progressive casting of smite harder with little way for you to boost your casting. I would say the success of the list has to do more with your game running out of time by T3-4 before your opponent can kill through enough grots on objectives than the list itself doing really well in a tournament setting.
Definitely theoretical. I think I've heard of someone bringint a 300+ grot horde list to a tournament, but it is logistically a nightmare and hard on you.
hmm, good point re: Waaagh energy. So we have two options here, both can be used:
1) Take the relic that gives the optional +1 to psychic tests. As we can literally pull out 23 CP before buying stuff, I think it's an easy thing to get here. This army is flush with CP.
2) Find a way to get 7 more characters around the Psykers. Now, they each count as an Ork model themselves, so if they are all within 10" of each other, that's 3 there... You can probably keep a KFF and Baddruk close, maybe 2 runt herders, potentially a painboy to help with sniper fire and perils wounds. The last key point might be 3 elite Meks for at least a +1.
Probably not worth it.
At the very least, you could be testing smite at 5, 6, 6 (use the relic Ork last), or whatever combo you feel happiest with. And you'd probably have extra points for the command re-roll in the psychic phase.
I honestly think an army like this could work if you could somehow move fast enough. The SSAG alone with 5-6 rounds of shooting twice with more Dakka, potentially re-rolling die for shots or going for 11+ strength, I think could devastate a marine army.
But moving it? Yeah, I can't see that going well in a 90 minute window.
I did 3 tournaments with 100+ grots and I can tell you that, once you get movement trays (I have both blocks of 5 grouped and 5 in lines) you can easily play thru it. You will loose 50/60 grots the first couple of turns, the rest stays in the back so you can achieve recon and objective grabbing later on.
The problem is when you get 16d3 shots with full rerolls in your face with 60" range and out of LoS. You CANNOT counter that. All those that did something during the last two months at tournaments they got Lucky they didn't meet IH.
In case there would be any counter against IH, I doubt it would be spaming 200 grots and wasting lot of points in a defensive strategy, I don't think orks can beat marines in a defensive strategy.
I've played 2 times against marines with a bad list and the situations I was ahead were the ones the SM did a mistake like bad positioning and I was able to block in combat my army to avoid the fire, and even doing that, my orks were facing troops with 2 wounds and insane saves, so I wasn't really ahead.
Emicrania wrote: I did 3 tournaments with 100+ grots and I can tell you that, once you get movement trays (I have both blocks of 5 grouped and 5 in lines) you can easily play thru it. You will loose 50/60 grots the first couple of turns, the rest stays in the back so you can achieve recon and objective grabbing later on.
The problem is when you get 16d3 shots with full rerolls in your face with 60" range and out of LoS. You CANNOT counter that. All those that did something during the last two months at tournaments they got Lucky they didn't meet IH.
Gotcha. Do you think it would be possible to outscore your opponents here? Or is just 6 turns of whirlwind fire is giving up too many VPs to kill more? You could do your best to give the grots a 5++, 6+++, but yeah, thunderfire cannons are straight up bs.
300 grots might even be hard for thunderfire cannons if the grots are getting saves.
You might be able to da jump and tag stuff in a pinch, or even take some Deff Koptas to that effect on turn 3 if there's a hole to jump in and charge.
But yeah. Accurate, devastating indirect fire is probably the strongest gak in 8th edition right now, and marines got it in bundles.
Having 312 fearless grots with 6+++ (because they don't get Invu or KFF, being so many) relay on forcing your opponent to shoot inexpensive models with expensive guns.
This list is a copy of the one played this summer during the ETC World championship. It works in ETC because how ETC scoring works and how etc limits spamming units outside hq and troops (if I remember correctly)
However it is one of the 2 effective strategies. Forcing your opponent to waste away doing Close to 0 damage or having insanely resilient units with cheap Invu or deny dmg.
Think that those fething Marines are so broken that PB are not competitive anymore, because of all the rerolls.
AFAIKETC is just running a mix of Eternal War and Maelstrom missions - the only real limit on army creation is that they banned both index and FW.
That said, I don't think a marine army has any trouble grinding through those 312 gretchin within 3 turns - I picked a random tournament winner from two weeks ago (IH with RG centurions) and their army averaged to 150 gretchin dead per turn, assuming everyone is in range and not inside an aura or using stratagems. It's more likely that he just keeps blocking their movement with gretchin while the SAGs keep taking out fast units. When you are scoring for 3 or 4 turns and keep marines pinned in their corner, they have little way of catching up in maelstrom or any of the CA2018 eternal war missions.This is basically the go-to strategy in our group when facing marines - keep them busy and take out anything that allows them to catch up on VP. I wonder how he keeps his characters from getting blow to pieces by eliminators though.
However, since ITC heavily rewards killing things, I'm not sure this is a solution for you.
Jidmah wrote: AFAIKETC is just running a mix of Eternal War and Maelstrom missions - the only real limit on army creation is that they banned both index and FW.
That said, I don't think a marine army has any trouble grinding through those 312 gretchin within 3 turns - I picked a random tournament winner from two weeks ago (IH with RG centurions) and their army averaged to 150 gretchin dead per turn, assuming everyone is in range and not inside an aura or using stratagems.
It's more likely that he just keeps blocking their movement with gretchin while the SAGs keep taking out fast units. When you are scoring for 3 or 4 turns and keep marines pinned in their corner, they have little way of catching up in maelstrom or any of the CA2018 eternal war missions.This is basically the go-to strategy in our group when facing marines - keep them busy and take out anything that allows them to catch up on VP.
I wonder how he keeps his characters from getting blow to pieces by eliminators though.
However, since ITC heavily rewards killing things, I'm not sure this is a solution for you.
Dont ETC have a limitation about spamming units?
However, I´m moving away from playing so many grots Is a punishing list to play on your body and mind on a 2 days tournaments.
How are you getting all 312 Gretchin into your 12" fearless bubble? Like, I know the whole unit doesn't hafta be in 12", but even running units of 30 Gretchin, you're gonna have trouble keeping them close enough to the Warlord to be fearless, but far enough away to actually score stuff. More importantly, how are you keeping them in the 3" Painboy aura? Even if you field 3 of them, that's not a lot of wiggle room.
That IH lists sounds harsh, I suspect your only real chance is to bring boys in with endless green tide and get behind them. Even then, you'll probably get shot to death before you get to do anything.
I'm playing a 2k game tonight, got 2 potential lists, I'll bring both and decide at the last minute!
6 burna boys (cheap trial, I doubt they will succeed, but AP-2 might help a little)
Trukk, Wrecking Ball Trukk Trukk Trukk
1999pts
First list plan is simple, kill everything and launch the Nobs into combat. Unsure on klan, thinking snakebites for survival or bad moons for volume of fire. bloodaxe may be worth it to avoid combat-locking the kill tanks, and can be used with the longer ranges of killtank weapons to get cover.
Second list's plan is to capitalise on the evil suns and defkilla to move and advance further, fire assault weapons (AKA everything) without penalty and still charge if the deffkilla is near. Shoota trukks do drive-bys, slugga trukks do charges. Big mobs use da jump and mob up with the 10-man squad to go kill stuff. The 30-man squad tries to pull off endless green tide for maximum effect. SAG's give fire support from the backfield, and with everything in the enemies face, they should be fairly safe. I could keep the 30 shootas back to protect them if needed, or give them the burna's trukk (losing stratagems, though).
I think they both seem fairly strong unless the enemy brings too many fliers (first list will cope, second less so. Though volume of shootas will do something, and 7 big shootas on trukks will do a little more!)
I'm mainly focussed on trying some new bits, and much as I loved trukk rush in 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th, it doesn't seem as promising this edition - but I need to try it for myself anyway! Kill tanks is just to try and get first turn and smash some 'oomies.
Honestly I ll take some months off competitive tournaments until they fix those fething IH, is disgusting.
I m gonna scale down and play more narrative and paint my BA.
flandarz wrote: How are you getting all 312 Gretchin into your 12" fearless bubble? Like, I know the whole unit doesn't hafta be in 12", but even running units of 30 Gretchin, you're gonna have trouble keeping them close enough to the Warlord to be fearless, but far enough away to actually score stuff. More importantly, how are you keeping them in the 3" Painboy aura? Even if you field 3 of them, that's not a lot of wiggle room.
I don't think that particular list has a fearless bubble -- He's using Evil Suns warlord trait so they can fall back and charge. And they hit on a 3+ with 2 attacks if all the auras are in range and the grots are 20+ in numbers. I'm not sure how well that would work, but that's hilarious.
Ghazzy's breakin' heads is 6" only.
You could achieve that bubble if you took snakebite grots, though with a snakebites warlord. I wonder if that would actually be even better? I suppose it really depends if this lean in to the grot charge works or not.
I think you could probably get most of your grots in range of a KFF aura turn 1, depending on deployment, if you used the KFF strat. Probably totally worth it, as you might have up to 2 rounds of your shooting before the grots lost access to the aura, which might thin out the damage.
And although it's 3 CP, this army really just uses its CP for re-rolls, SAGs, and auto pass morale I reckon.
Played a game with my speed freeks this weekend to try and see how the new buggies work out. Despite being against Necrons, where you'd think the squigbuggy's S5 AP-good profile would shine, the thing actually managed to go a full five turns without causing one. single. wound.
It did squat in the back and score me 5/17 victory points so I can't complain too much, but my dice were basically determined to punish me for daring to hope, lol.
A mixed clan detachment is INSANELY clever if all the clan is doing is being a CP battery. You lose your clan trait for that particular detachment, but who cares? It also allows you to take grots that are useful for grot shields for other detachments *and* inject the minor useful things from the weak clans.
In this particular case, that SAG has taken Morgan's Finken Cap so now we are getting command points back on a 6+.
Also gamed yesterday. First time using the washing machine...ergg...the morkanaut. 310 pts is maybe too much for what it does. It should be around 260-280. I am however not completely disappointed as it draw a lot of fire power leaving the rest of my mechanized list undamaged.
Guess it may be a bit imposing, once it is painted I will upload my conversion.
the_scotsman wrote: Played a game with my speed freeks this weekend to try and see how the new buggies work out. Despite being against Necrons, where you'd think the squigbuggy's S5 AP-good profile would shine, the thing actually managed to go a full five turns without causing one. single. wound.
It did squat in the back and score me 5/17 victory points so I can't complain too much, but my dice were basically determined to punish me for daring to hope, lol.
The armament looks close enough to a scrapjet, so just use it as such. I'm planning to get one just for that reason, simply because I'd rather have a new buggy than another one I already have
A mixed clan detachment is INSANELY clever if all the clan is doing is being a CP battery. You lose your clan trait for that particular detachment, but who cares? It also allows you to take grots that are useful for grot shields for other detachments *and* inject the minor useful things from the weak clans.
In this particular case, that SAG has taken Morgan's Finken Cap so now we are getting command points back on a 6+.
Why not just make all of them bad moons?
The blood axe trait usually provides no more than 2 CP (only one per battle round!) as you tend to be out of them by turn 3 and less if you're unlucky. Since you are also sacrificing a relic slot worth 1-2 CP, you are better off just not taking it.
The blood axe trait usually provides no more than 2 CP (only one per battle round!) as you tend to be out of them by turn 3 and less if you're unlucky. Since you are also sacrificing a relic slot worth 1-2 CP, you are better off just not taking it.
I am a big fan of the typical relic layout (SSAG + relic klaw) -- but I could see lists where I might swap the klaw out for something like the cap. The new maelstrom missions really, really encourage you to use their strats to fish for certain tactical objectives, or bring them back from the discard pile so you can get them again. It's actually probably *necessary*, because certain armies have access to insanely efficient VP cards they can now potentially get multiple times. I think I saw somewhere, for instance, Thousand Sons can get 7 VP off of 1 card?
Basically, that 1-2 extra CP might be another 3-6 VPs with the right play and a little luck.
It's more so just an eye opening idea -- certain useful things that seem to be clan locked you can potentially access cheaply if you are willing to mix clans in a detachment, instead of taking something like a supreme detachment.
If that Blood Axe trait was exempt from the more than 1 cp per round rule (which it SHOULD BE since its less likely to get multiples than the Eldar ones that are allowed) i'd do that in a heartbeat.
But since we often dump 6-8 Cp in a turn....yeah you arent gonna get more than 2 cp max because by turn3 you are either out or are saving 1 for a reroll somewhere.
Mixed detachment still makes sense if you had double-weirdboys though. The only kultures that they benefit from wont really help them all that much anyway, might as well allow those grots to protect the flashgitz or whoever you wanted them for. SAG loses way too much not having Big Killa Boss and/or deathskullz/badmoonz traits.
Vineheart01 wrote: If that Blood Axe trait was exempt from the more than 1 cp per round rule (which it SHOULD BE since its less likely to get multiples than the Eldar ones that are allowed) i'd do that in a heartbeat.
But since we often dump 6-8 Cp in a turn....yeah you arent gonna get more than 2 cp max because by turn3 you are either out or are saving 1 for a reroll somewhere.
Mixed detachment still makes sense if you had double-weirdboys though. The only kultures that they benefit from wont really help them all that much anyway, might as well allow those grots to protect the flashgitz or whoever you wanted them for. SAG loses way too much not having Big Killa Boss and/or deathskullz/badmoonz traits.
Yup, totally reasonable.
I think the Bad Moons SAG is really overblown. Every 6 shots, you expect to see one roll of 1. Access to the bad moons shoot twice on a normal SAG is a bit meh, too. Desperate use of 2 CP. Deathskulls really is just... so much better. Rerolling damage is clutch. But, really, the SSAG is the going to carry you anyway, as it's 2-4x more output than the normal SAG, which should 100% always be a deathskull if you are optimizing.
But yeah, exactly right with weirdboys. You can slot them wherever and it doesn't really matter much. KFF Mek is similar too -- Evil suns is nice of course for keeping up with running up troops, or maybe the 6+ invul save from DS, but you could probably make do with whatever clan trait, or none, really.
Vineheart01 wrote: If that Blood Axe trait was exempt from the more than 1 cp per round rule (which it SHOULD BE since its less likely to get multiples than the Eldar ones that are allowed) i'd do that in a heartbeat.
But since we often dump 6-8 Cp in a turn....yeah you arent gonna get more than 2 cp max because by turn3 you are either out or are saving 1 for a reroll somewhere.
Mixed detachment still makes sense if you had double-weirdboys though. The only kultures that they benefit from wont really help them all that much anyway, might as well allow those grots to protect the flashgitz or whoever you wanted them for. SAG loses way too much not having Big Killa Boss and/or deathskullz/badmoonz traits.
Yup, totally reasonable.
I think the Bad Moons SAG is really overblown. Every 6 shots, you expect to see one roll of 1. Access to the bad moons shoot twice on a normal SAG is a bit meh, too. Desperate use of 2 CP. Deathskulls really is just... so much better. Rerolling damage is clutch. But, really, the SSAG is the going to carry you anyway, as it's 2-4x more output than the normal SAG, which should 100% always be a deathskull if you are optimizing.
But yeah, exactly right with weirdboys. You can slot them wherever and it doesn't really matter much. KFF Mek is similar too -- Evil suns is nice of course for keeping up with running up troops, or maybe the 6+ invul save from DS, but you could probably make do with whatever clan trait, or none, really.
With sag dethskull is obvious.
With ssag dethskull, badmoon and freeboota are about equal so rest of army decides
Deathskullz is technically superior for the SSAG, mostly because of the reroll damage die making it much less likely to do very low damage with what does hit. But BadMoonz/Freeboota works well enough to justify not having a special Deathskullz detachment if you cant/dont want to swing one (like me). My SSAG when i run Bad Moonz is a little swingy but it works, but as Deathskullz it usually reliably owns things. Because of that damage reroll, not the hits, i generally get the same-ish number of hits/wounds between the two clans.
Vineheart01 wrote: Deathskullz is technically superior for the SSAG, mostly because of the reroll damage die making it much less likely to do very low damage with what does hit.
But BadMoonz/Freeboota works well enough to justify not having a special Deathskullz detachment if you cant/dont want to swing one (like me). My SSAG when i run Bad Moonz is a little swingy but it works, but as Deathskullz it usually reliably owns things. Because of that damage reroll, not the hits, i generally get the same-ish number of hits/wounds between the two clans.
You must roll more ones than I do I think you need to roll at least 3 ones to hit for it to be close.
With shoot twice, I think that DS has a decent efficiency edge with that damage reroll, as it applies to both rounds of shooting. But overall, if you aren’t getting much else out of death skull, that’s fair. I think the normal SAG really suffers, though, which is why I usually default to a DS battalion
tulun wrote: Basically, that 1-2 extra CP might be another 3-6 VPs with the right play and a little luck.
You pay 1 CP to field it though, which means it is 0-1 in, which can turn into -1 with a bit of bad luck of if a bunch of eliminators get involved.
tulun wrote: It's more so just an eye opening idea -- certain useful things that seem to be clan locked you can potentially access cheaply if you are willing to mix clans in a detachment, instead of taking something like a supreme detachment.
I toyed with that idea a bit, but it's rarely worth losing out on a clan culture. In maelstrom, you need three units of gretchin to camp objectives anyways, so not using them as grot shields is pretty much irrelevant. So in your example, I would just make the entire detachment blood axes.
I doubt anyone has properly calculated that, as our standard mathhammer averages are pretty much worthless on something with a high spread as the SSAG.
Yeah the SSAG mathhammer is unreliable since its the epitome of randomness.
My comments are from me running mono badmoonz and sometimes running mono deathskullz. I generally get 3-6 hits with it, depending more on how many shots i got not which kulture i used. Usually 1 fails to wound, deathskullz tends to offset that of course Damage almost ALWAYS includes a 1-2 somewhere, which deathskullz rerolls and is the ultimate reason i say deathskullz are better because almost every time it fires the few wounds that get through are heavy hits, while for badmoonz i tend to roll crap and have no way to reroll it outside CP reroll. I have routinely caused 16+ damage with Deathskullz in one shot, while Badmoonz ive rarely ever breached 12.
And yes, i roll 1s like a mofo. Dunno how many times i rolled 10 shots with my SSAG and got 4-5 1s out of it. Dice being dice ftw. (Need a 6 to live? sure you'll pass it most of the time. Need a 2? Fail it 90% of the time)
You don't need a master degree in maths for a tree diagram for bad moons, probability is always unreliable cuz it tends to infinity, but it makes an aproximation
On the other hand, without talking about calculations (it would be so long because deathskull rolls are dependant), the average numer of shoots for SSAG is 7, it means there will be 1.16 dices with a 1, with deathskulls you can reroll that dice in hits and then you have another rerroll for wounds and another one for dmg.
tulun wrote: Basically, that 1-2 extra CP might be another 3-6 VPs with the right play and a little luck.
You pay 1 CP to field it though, which means it is 0-1 in, which can turn into -1 with a bit of bad luck of if a bunch of eliminators get involved.
tulun wrote: It's more so just an eye opening idea -- certain useful things that seem to be clan locked you can potentially access cheaply if you are willing to mix clans in a detachment, instead of taking something like a supreme detachment.
I toyed with that idea a bit, but it's rarely worth losing out on a clan culture. In maelstrom, you need three units of gretchin to camp objectives anyways, so not using them as grot shields is pretty much irrelevant. So in your example, I would just make the entire detachment blood axes.
True. It's something of a gamble, and is definitely list dependent. When I think about building a 2000 point list, I usually budget for 16 CP (-1 CP for Dread Waaagh, -1 CP for 2 relics).
I could keep the 1 extra CP for 17, but I think it's pretty likely I'll at least make it back if I can keep the character alive, and 2 CP back (up to 18), is also probably not too unlikely. If I get really lucky, I'll get way more. It's risky, but I could see giving it a go in some lists, especially in Maelstrom where I now have to squeeze in as much extra CP as I can for the Maelstrom deck strats.
Regarding the SAG: I think without getting too much in the complex math, it's clear DS will trump BM on average. (Guaranteed 1 hit, 1 wound, and re-roll damage vs just re-rolls to 1s). It's uncontroversial.
The SSAG DS is still probably clearly the winner here, too. Variable damage is probably equivalent to a couple of bonus rolls. If you only roll a 1 on your damage die, the SSAG basically fizzles on targets it wants to hit.. and the likelihood of getting a 1 is much, much less on deathskulls.
The amount of net hits and wounds you're getting too on 2d6 shots is probably close or maybe even in DS favour on average. With 7 shots, the chance of not seeing at least one 1 is 82%. You always get to re-roll 1 hit on DS.
BMs probably gets closer to overtaking once your # of shots is 18+.
That being said, army composition can trump making your SSAG more efficient.
It's more than just a bit because of wound reroll.
In math you need 3-4 ones rerolling to come to deffskullz dmg.
An easy example.
Ssag mek vs leman russ double shooting ( no more dakka but dakka dakka dakka)
Say with big killa boss str 7 shots 7
So bad moonz = 14 shots +2,33 from dakka dakka dakka ( reroll able) = 6,33 hits average ( with everything inside)
Wounding on 4+ = 3,1xx wounds
Dmg = 11 dmg average.
Deffkulz double shooting means 2 hot two wound two dmg rerolls
= 6,2 hits average but than the Wounding comes = 4,1 wounds average because of rerolls.
Than two dmg rerolls 2 2x4,5 and 2,1x 3,5 = more than 16 dmg.
= about 42% more dmg output
And if you shoot just one time
With bad moonz 5,55 dmg Deffkulz 8,2 dmg.
cody.d. wrote: Really hoping that Saga of The Beast brings some good relics. Its a touch boring that the SSAG and Killa Klaw are the only stand outs.
Yeah, definitely makes our lists very cookie cutter, which sucks since I WANT to bring other stuff, but the impact the other relics have is so marginal you're actively hurting your list by not taking the KK or the SSAG. At the very least new Klan specific relics and some of the stuff from previous supplements in the last edition, like the Mega Kustom Force Field.
I'd love a relic akin to what the Marines got now where they can make a captain have like ~12 attacks.
Make a boss actually WANT to follow his boyz, rather than overkill the majority of things he hits. Enough strength and AP to be a threat to any non-vehicle, still capable of hurting a vehicle in a pinch.
Vineheart01 wrote: I'd love a relic akin to what the Marines got now where they can make a captain have like ~12 attacks.
Make a boss actually WANT to follow his boyz, rather than overkill the majority of things he hits. Enough strength and AP to be a threat to any non-vehicle, still capable of hurting a vehicle in a pinch.
Yeah, a horde-mower boss to contrast against the KK boss taking out the big multi-wound models. I would love to see a Big Choppa variant of the Teeth of Terra. Only problem is he lacks the jump pack options of most jump captains, but I guess the Bike will do. I could also see a relic for INFANTRY only that effectively gives a 2+ save and something defensive on top (unmodded 6's to save cause mortal wounds on the inflicted the wound?) as a way to provide a potential stopgap for Mega Armour Warbosses until they finally release an official model for it. Also, it shocks me that they haven't made a gitfinda or personal tellyporta relic yet.
Gruxz wrote: I'm quite intrigued with playing deathskulls, do you guys still include a BM with kff? Or is it better to slap a painboy/mad dok in there?
Largely depends on the list. Deathskulls work very well with a mechanized list, as single models often benefit strongly from their clan culture. But a mechanized list doesn't necessarily need a big mek KFF.
Mad Dok is definitely worth it, imo, if you have enough infantry to make it worth it. He's much harder to kill (4+ save vs 6+, 5+++ FNP), and if you decide to mix clan detachments, his aura works on any clan. He also hits on 3's with his klaw instead of 4's, and it's only 21 more points.
If you feel you have the right units that needs the 5++, take a KFF.
tulun wrote: A regular captain only has 4 base attacks too.
It’s just their aura is basically infinitely better, and they can take a billion upgrades.
And it doesn’t even cost much to do so... the warboss can’t even take a kill saw.
That's what irks me, is that fluffwise the Warboss gets the lion's share of the loot and the best gear and he can't even have some of the basic wargear of Nobz. He can't even upgrade his kustom shoota to a snazzgun for Gork's sake!
tulun wrote: A regular captain only has 4 base attacks too.
It’s just their aura is basically infinitely better, and they can take a billion upgrades.
And it doesn’t even cost much to do so... the warboss can’t even take a kill saw.
That's what irks me, is that fluffwise the Warboss gets the lion's share of the loot and the best gear and he can't even have some of the basic wargear of Nobz. He can't even upgrade his kustom shoota to a snazzgun for Gork's sake!
Absolutely. I honest to god hope they release a couple new kits for us in PA -- it would be sick to have a new Warboss with wargear options, and a Weirdboy that could literally take any wargear.
Imagine if a warboss could take 2 kill saws, even. It would be 88 points for the walking one, and... 118 I think for the bike.
5 attacks. hitting on 3s, flat 2 damage, ap-4, with 2 attack squig attacks.
Amazing? no. But that's ALREADY a huge upgrade over the klaw boss. d3 damage sucks.
Regarding relics: I think we have a few good ones, but when it'll cost you 3 CP to take your 3rd one, there's not really much point. If I could take subsequent relics for 1 CP each, I might consider a couple.
Yeah thats the big reason they NEED to release a proppa Ork Warboss kit with all da fixin's
There should be absolutely nothing (except maybe a Deffgun) that a Boss shouldnt have access to. Hell i should be allowed to bring a boss with dual Kustom Shootas and kitbash him to look like some wild-west gunslinger
They could even take some inspiration from DoW if they wanted Warboss specific gear to give him. Give him a Bang Bang Hamma, basically a souped up Big Choppa with +3S, AP-2 and 3 Damage. Add a Boss Klaw option which doesn't have the negative to hit penalty and does D6 damage. These would have the appropriate costs for him specifically, but to have gear that reflects that he's a cut above Nob weaponry would actually make taking multiple Warbosses palatable.
flandarz wrote: I wonder if it'd be worth a Relic to allow Gretchin (within x") to benefit from Kultur. Probably not.
I'd say that would be a wonderful relic. Mek guns, kanz and grot tanks getting kulture would have some fun potential. Hell even regular grots could get some use.
flandarz wrote: I wonder if it'd be worth a Relic to allow Gretchin (within x") to benefit from Kultur. Probably not.
I'd say that would be a wonderful relic. Mek guns, kanz and grot tanks getting kulture would have some fun potential. Hell even regular grots could get some use.
I'd prefer Grots getting their own Kultur tbh, that stays and doesn't disrupt regular Klan kulturs in the same detachment. Not sure would it would be specifically, but getting something like an "opportunist" rule where they reroll one's to wound against an enemy unit that has suffered casualties or wounds this turn would be interesting, or if they got something that forced enemy non-FLY units to pass a roll off like wyches if they have a unit of 10 or more grots in combat with them, giving us some kind of incentive to take them as a horde to prevent enemies from running away from the rest of the Ork army from hitting home. Meanwhile, Kanz are specifically said to adopt the Klan tactics of the detachment they're in, even though they have the GRETCHIN keyword since being a Kan is about the closest they get to being an Ork.
flandarz wrote: I wonder if it'd be worth a Relic to allow Gretchin (within x") to benefit from Kultur. Probably not.
I'd say that would be a wonderful relic. Mek guns, kanz and grot tanks getting kulture would have some fun potential. Hell even regular grots could get some use.
Of course this would require point increase to mek guns as minimum.
flandarz wrote: I wonder if it'd be worth a Relic to allow Gretchin (within x") to benefit from Kultur. Probably not.
I'd say that would be a wonderful relic. Mek guns, kanz and grot tanks getting kulture would have some fun potential. Hell even regular grots could get some use.
Of course this would require point increase to mek guns as minimum.
Average bad moonz vs a 5++ knight = 3,70 dmg Average deffskullz vs a knight 5++ = 6,315
( both with big killa boss ( str 7 and 7 shoots) dakka dakka dakka include
That's nearly double dude
flandarz wrote: I wonder if it'd be worth a Relic to allow Gretchin (within x") to benefit from Kultur. Probably not.
I'd say that would be a wonderful relic. Mek guns, kanz and grot tanks getting kulture would have some fun potential. Hell even regular grots could get some use.
Of course this would require point increase to mek guns as minimum.
Average bad moonz vs a 5++ knight = 3,70 dmg Average deffskullz vs a knight 5++ = 6,315
( both with big killa boss ( str 7 and 7 shoots) dakka dakka dakka include
That's nearly double dude
That's more like I calculated. Difference in rerolling damage is HUGE.
flandarz wrote: I wonder if it'd be worth a Relic to allow Gretchin (within x") to benefit from Kultur. Probably not.
I'd say that would be a wonderful relic. Mek guns, kanz and grot tanks getting kulture would have some fun potential. Hell even regular grots could get some use.
Of course this would require point increase to mek guns as minimum.
Average bad moonz vs a 5++ knight = 3,70 dmg Average deffskullz vs a knight 5++ = 6,315
( both with big killa boss ( str 7 and 7 shoots) dakka dakka dakka include
That's nearly double dude
Care to show math then? Because I got mine by doing the attack run ~100k times. Couple times just for sure. I don't know how to calculate it accurately so went for brute force and simply ran the attack run hundreds of thousands of time.
You need to be pretty convincing for me to believe you vs hundreds of thousands of attack runs.
So last math was a bit wrong because of made the math in my head.
Deffskulz =
7 shots + one reroll = 8 rolled.
8/6 = 1,33.
8+ 1,33 = 9,33 ( average shots with dakka dakka dakka and deffkulz reroll.
9,33 /6*2 = 3,11 hits
Wounding on 4+ (+ deffskullz reroll)
3,11/6*3 = 1, 55 wounds and one reroll
1/6*2 = 0,33
1,55+0,33 = 1,88 wounds.
1,88 /6*4 = 1,25 unsaved.
Dmg : 1 dice can be rerolled from that 1,25 done =
1*4,5 = 4, 5 dmg + 0,25 *3,5 = 0,875
4,5+ 0,875 = 5,375
Here the some last post wasnt accurate.
So bad moonz 3,93
Deffskull = 5,375
That's 26,xx % more dmg.
So more than quarter Ssag mek ( like D3 shots)
If you shoot twice its about one whole normals sag mek extre fire if you use deffskullz. That's rly a lot
Numbers aside that means one deffkull Ssag mek double shooting is the same like one bad moon Ssag mek double shooting + one normal sag mek together.
Bad moons gives to me 3,25 hits. So 1.625 wounds, 1,08 successfull wounds and 2,16 dmg.
Deathskullz can't be made directly with a simple multiplication cuz the rolls are dependant, but in the easy (AND WRONG) way, it gives to me more than 5 damage, depending of the kind of aproximation done.
Kebabcito wrote: Bad moons gives to me 3,25 hits. So 1.625 wounds, 1,08 successfull wounds and 2,16 dmg.
Deathskullz can't be made directly with a simple multiplication cuz the rolls are dependant, but in the easy (AND WRONG) way, it gives to me more than 5 damage, depending of the kind of aproximation done.
Well 3,25 is wrong .
Just look up
And 1,08 unsaved would be 3,79 dmg not 2,16 ( its d6dmg not D3
Kebabcito wrote: Bad moons gives to me 3,25 hits. So 1.625 wounds, 1,08 successfull wounds and 2,16 dmg.
Deathskullz can't be made directly with a simple multiplication cuz the rolls are dependant, but in the easy (AND WRONG) way, it gives to me more than 5 damage, depending of the kind of aproximation done.
Well 3,25 is wrong .
Just look up
First rerroll 1, then dakka dakka dakka, then 1 again, is 3.25 with 7 shoots.
Hits first roll 2/6
Hits after rerolling 1 2/6 + 1/6 * 2/6
Hits after dakka dakka 2/6 + 1/6 * 2/6 + 1/6*2/6 + 1/6 * 1/6 * 2/6
Hits after the 1 of the dakka dakka 2/6 + 1/6 * 2/6 + 1/6*2/6 + 1/6 * 1/6 * 2/6 + 1/6 * 1/6 * 1/6 * 2/6 + 1/6 * 1/6 * 2/6
With 7 shoots (this should be done with a distribution of every probability of shoot, but I have not enough time, just 7 shoots) It gives to me 3.25
Jep the fail is rerolling ones on 1, 361 shots not just on one
And the rerolled ones can be sixes
Automatically Appended Next Post: 7 shots = 1,16 rerolls ones = 1,361 dakka dakka = 0,226 rerrol ones = 3,25 you're right . But it's 1,62 wounds 1,08 unsaved = 3,79 dmg not 2, 18
So it's more Than 26% dmg different and deffskullz far superior
Guys seriously, give up already. Mathammer app has a paragraph just on the SSAG. Where it says that is too complicated to calculate...
DS has the advantage of rolling dmg and to w. That should be enough
I agree with EMI. SAG is just too random to put numbers to when you got rerolls involved. Having played the SSAG as both Deathskullz and unkultured, I can say that I saw no appreciable difference between them. Maybe 1 or 2 damage a turn. Is that enough to not take Evil Sunz if you're also running Deffdreadz, or Freebooterz if you got lots of Mek Gunz? That's up to you.
Bad moons ssag is not that hard to calculate, only longer than usual. It can be done in 5-10 minutes.
Deathskullz is indeed hard to calculate because the individual rolls are dependant of the other dices, but with an aproximation I've done is between 30 and 50% better to go deathskulls.
I think SSAG is the stronger unit of our army and you must go deathskulls, last match against tyranids I oneshoted an harpy in the first minute of game, and turn 3 oneshoted trygon prime, the average result of strength and shoots are 6-8 the 45% of the time, that's insane! If the needed strength for oneshooting someone is 6 (with the +1 big killa boss, sometimes 6 of strength is enough to wounds in 2's), you can roll >= more than 70% of the time, and there's a 7% chance of a critical strike, not soo low.
Vineheart01 wrote: Yeah thats the big reason they NEED to release a proppa Ork Warboss kit with all da fixin's
There should be absolutely nothing (except maybe a Deffgun) that a Boss shouldnt have access to.
Hell i should be allowed to bring a boss with dual Kustom Shootas and kitbash him to look like some wild-west gunslinger
It's weird, GW seems to want to make these super crazy expensive monopose character kits, but if they sold a kit with the "signature" HQs of each kit akin to the Thousand Sons Exalted Sorceror Kit I would buy the heck out of it.
Make it a 50$ price point, comes with 3 torsos, and all the bits to make warbosses, weirdboyz, regular big meks and doks. Put tons of option bits in there (including a warbike) and give people the ability to actually customize their characters again.
Maybe is just my tinfoiled hat that talks, but I'm under the impression that all the new release are going towards less and and less model building and kitbashing. It seems they wanna become a toys for adults company
Emicrania wrote: Maybe is just my tinfoiled hat that talks, but I'm under the impression that all the new release are going towards less and and less model building and kitbashing. It seems they wanna become a toys for adults company
No, I think you're right on the money. They've shifted from doing dual kits for a while now, with monopose and limited piece parts becoming the new norm. With characters especially, the clampacks are all about only giving you a set loadout. It's an unfortunate legacy of the Chapterhouse case and it's GW's way of spiting 3rd party sculptors that really hurts DIY factions like Orks. With legends being a thing they're more or less purging a lot of the conversions and kitbashes people are doing. The dumb part is that if GW would actually make more money rather than less if they kept the modelling options more open since people would buy extra kits like warbikes/etc to make their own character on it, or just provide a bitz service altogether to corner part of the 3rd party market. Alas, it's "no model, no rules" for now.
flandarz wrote: I agree with EMI. SAG is just too random to put numbers to when you got rerolls involved. Having played the SSAG as both Deathskullz and unkultured, I can say that I saw no appreciable difference between them. Maybe 1 or 2 damage a turn. Is that enough to not take Evil Sunz if you're also running Deffdreadz, or Freebooterz if you got lots of Mek Gunz? That's up to you.
I think it's clear its better from even napkin approximations, which is good enough for me.
But not enough to overwhelm army composition. If people have a reason to not want to take Deathskulls, that's fine.
tneva82 wrote: Care to show math then? Because I got mine by doing the attack run ~100k times. Couple times just for sure. I don't know how to calculate it accurately so went for brute force and simply ran the attack run hundreds of thousands of time.
The way to calculate it is not that hard... actually calculating it is the PITA that I gave up on after I already waste 4 days of development on it.
I tried this algorithm: Create a tree 1) create a node for each possible results for strength (and their chance) 3) below each create nodes for the results for to hit and their chance, creating another tier below the first miss if deff skills. Create an extra tier below the 6 for triggering dakkadakkadakka and create extra tier below 1 if bad moons. 4) below each hit, create nodes for all to wound results and their chance (if you are insane like me, calculate that on the fly from S+T). For deff skulls create another tier below the first failed to wound roll. 5) below each successful wound, create a node with with the chance to fail a save 6) below each unsaved wound, create a node with each result for damage done and its chance. For deff skulls create another tier for the first 1-3 rolled for damage. 7) below that another set of nodes for mortal wounds from S11+ and their chance 8) below add up damage and multiply all chances to get the chance to reach this exact result
You now have a tree which properly models a single shot from the SAG, which should have ~50000 leafs, so 50000 possible combinations of rolls per shot, which can be simplified to about 25000, as roughly 50% deal 0 damage (for T7, no invulnerable save) This is as far as I got. Were it all went to hell: For each number of shots, you need all possible combinations of those 25000 results. So for 2 shots it's 25000^2, for 3 shots its 25000^3, and for 12 shots, it's 25000^12, which leaves you with about 6x10^52 possible outcomes for the SSAG. In theory, once you have all those, you simply add up all results with the same damage result (0-63) and their corresponding chance and you should get some sort of bell curve you can show around. In practice, this little experiment caused my datatypes to overflow, memory locks, required more cpu power than an triple A egoshooter, created huge rounding errors when multiplying tiny fractions of chances and in general took ages to run. When I broke all that insane stuff up there when trying to switch to other datatypes, I simply gave up.
Super Heavy Detachment:
Kill tank, gigashoota
Kill Tank, Burstagun
Kill Tank, Burstagun
2000 pts
I ran it as snakebites for the 6+++, which I now think was a mistake. I should have gone for bloodaxes, I spent a few turns locked in useless combat.
had grots and nobs in the 2 bursta tanks and the Tankbustas in the gigashoota one.
Turn 1 was mine (with so few units) and the 2 burstas enjoyed removing 2 units of primaris from the board, scoring exactly 5 wounds each with no saves, 2 damage. Gigashoota fluffed mostly, plinked 1 wound off a sniper primaris, who then died when the grots inside plinked another off (3 wounds, hitting on 6's wounding on 5's!)
SSAG wound up and fired 8 S11 shots (woop) and killed off a third primaris squad without even having to roll to wound (6 hits!). Happy days. Grots killtank managed a charge, with ramming speed, into one of his tanks, and failed both 2+ rolls to inflict D3 mortal wounds. pleh. In combat he stayed for about 5 rounds of combat, getting steadily mushed by Calgar.
Return fire killed a lot of my meks grot shields, popped auto-pass morale to keep them from running. one tank now in combat with calgar, a captain, and the repulsor, who didn't run off (no idea why). Vindicaire expertly blows the head off of a grot oiler.
Grots get out and take 3 wounds off an inquisitor (go grots of doom!) before charging him, to realise he had a flamer. ouch.
SSAG now winds up to shoot the other repulsor and gets 12 S11 shots! repulsor is dropped to 1 wound. lucky git. big guns of the kill tanks shoot some heavy plasma dudes and kill a few, nobs have gotten out and line up a charge. They kill the repulsor and several plasma dudes, repulsor explodes and is exactly far enough away to not hit his dudes. banner nob dies horribly, before the nobs fight the other unit, so no +1 to hit. sadness.
His turn, assassins appear everywhere and the vindicaire goes for the SSAG mek again, grot shields keeps him alive. drugged-up assassin charges 25 grots, and kills 24 (more rolls to hit each time he kills someone. Vs T2, that's a lot of dead grots.
The details fade a little here, basically I was slogging It out with a guy who kept failing to hit with a meltabomb, and the nobs fought a dude who I had to hit on 6's. my killtank exploded and killed Calgar, captain and put 1 wound on the repulsor, then the Tankbustas got out and popped more stikkbomms to destroy it utterly. At the end of turn 5, I had 2 killtanks on mostly full health and a big mek, and he had his vindicaire. He conceded (I was on 2 objectives and had killed 2 HS choices, Big Guns Never tire).
All in all, a fun game. Lots of death to be dished out by kill tanks, and very entertaining.
Blood axes all the way next time, being able to move out of combat and still shoot is too good to pass up, compared with 6+++, which did very little. I spent too many turns not shooting, and not falling back because he'd just charge me again.
Found it odd that big guns offered no VP for killing superheavies, I would have expected it to be 2 each.
Super Heavy Detachment:
Kill tank, gigashoota
Kill Tank, Burstagun
Kill Tank, Burstagun
2000 pts
I ran it as snakebites for the 6+++, which I now think was a mistake. I should have gone for bloodaxes, I spent a few turns locked in useless combat.
had grots and nobs in the 2 bursta tanks and the Tankbustas in the gigashoota one.
Turn 1 was mine (with so few units) and the 2 burstas enjoyed removing 2 units of primaris from the board, scoring exactly 5 wounds each with no saves, 2 damage. Gigashoota fluffed mostly, plinked 1 wound off a sniper primaris, who then died when the grots inside plinked another off (3 wounds, hitting on 6's wounding on 5's!)
SSAG wound up and fired 8 S11 shots (woop) and killed off a third primaris squad without even having to roll to wound (6 hits!). Happy days. Grots killtank managed a charge, with ramming speed, into one of his tanks, and failed both 2+ rolls to inflict D3 mortal wounds. pleh. In combat he stayed for about 5 rounds of combat, getting steadily mushed by Calgar.
Return fire killed a lot of my meks grot shields, popped auto-pass morale to keep them from running. one tank now in combat with calgar, a captain, and the repulsor, who didn't run off (no idea why). Vindicaire expertly blows the head off of a grot oiler.
Grots get out and take 3 wounds off an inquisitor (go grots of doom!) before charging him, to realise he had a flamer. ouch.
SSAG now winds up to shoot the other repulsor and gets 12 S11 shots! repulsor is dropped to 1 wound. lucky git. big guns of the kill tanks shoot some heavy plasma dudes and kill a few, nobs have gotten out and line up a charge. They kill the repulsor and several plasma dudes, repulsor explodes and is exactly far enough away to not hit his dudes. banner nob dies horribly, before the nobs fight the other unit, so no +1 to hit. sadness.
His turn, assassins appear everywhere and the vindicaire goes for the SSAG mek again, grot shields keeps him alive. drugged-up assassin charges 25 grots, and kills 24 (more rolls to hit each time he kills someone. Vs T2, that's a lot of dead grots.
The details fade a little here, basically I was slogging It out with a guy who kept failing to hit with a meltabomb, and the nobs fought a dude who I had to hit on 6's. my killtank exploded and killed Calgar, captain and put 1 wound on the repulsor, then the Tankbustas got out and popped more stikkbomms to destroy it utterly. At the end of turn 5, I had 2 killtanks on mostly full health and a big mek, and he had his vindicaire. He conceded (I was on 2 objectives and had killed 2 HS choices, Big Guns Never tire).
All in all, a fun game. Lots of death to be dished out by kill tanks, and very entertaining.
Blood axes all the way next time, being able to move out of combat and still shoot is too good to pass up, compared with 6+++, which did very little. I spent too many turns not shooting, and not falling back because he'd just charge me again.
Found it odd that big guns offered no VP for killing superheavies, I would have expected it to be 2 each.
Wow, thanks for sharing that battle report, I've almost heard nothing about the kill tanks being used in most games. What did you feel about them, outside of taking them as Blood Axes? Do you think they're better or worse than taking multiple Big Trakks with either Supa Kannons or Supa Skorchas?
yaknow i just assumed the Killtank could fall back and fire anyway....i never noticed that like the Gargsquig its for some fething reason missing that rule.
Baneblade has it and killtank is literally a baneblade with orky properties.
Do Killtanks really kill enough for 400+ points? seems a mad price tag for more or less 1 gun.
Speaking of FW, I hope someone fields a Garg squiggoth sometime just to destroy TFCs. 2 Supa lobbas could easily destroy a thunderfire cannon. 6d6 str 7, ap-2 shots. Make it Bad Moons w/ More Dakka and rain death on those annoying things.
Supa Lobbas are insanely expensive though
And the Gargsquig does not ignore heavy penalties so unless it doesnt move or you burn the cp for More Dakka its not gonna hit jack.
Vineheart01 wrote: Supa Lobbas are insanely expensive though
And the Gargsquig does not ignore heavy penalties so unless it doesnt move or you burn the cp for More Dakka its not gonna hit jack.
I think it's roughly 500 points for the kit w/ 2 supa lobbas, it's pretty bonkers. Yeah, it's insane it can't move and shoot heavy weapons or fallback and shoot like the Mork/Gork/Stompa. Probably an omission at this point.
I'm not sure if it's good, but it would be satisfying... If you could somehow hide it and just force them to approach it and charge if they got close. 35 wounds, and it's shooting remains the same regardless of wound profile.
Somewhat sadly, that might literally be the best tech we got against TFC or whirlwinds. Artillery fights artillery.
Although the Big Trakk is 170 points, and can take a 2d6, 48", str 6, ap-1, 1D Lobba. Doesn't degrade either in shooting ability. 15 wounds.
Nothing more salty than playing your first ork list since CA19 and rolling 8 1s when your flashgit trukk blows up (2 ammo runts so 12 dice)....
Was actually expecting an ideal testing ground since the new guy i never faced before apparently runs numbered primaris marines. Saw his list and went "Cool, i has flash gitz, 2 KBBs, and rokkits all over."
Killed 3 hellblasters with those + 30 boyz, lost half my list because i didnt roll a single save (not joking, both KBBs and my Gork were under the KFF and they didnt pass a single one before dying), lost both ammo runts and 6 gitz when the trukk blew up. I cant even call that a bad game...that was beyond abysmal. Dont think ive ever rolled so bad.
It simulates 100,000 time exactly the attack sequence as 40k rules tell it to do. Then to make sure I run it 3 times and take the middle result.
It's not hard to do.
It just occurred to me on the way to work, 100k might not be enough simulations to get close enough to get proper results. Even for just one shot, you have >50k possible results, for 2d6 shots the number is insanely large. Maybe throw your simulation in a background process and check back after a week or so?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, just for the record, some sad news:
We are now in the fourth week of 0 orks placing in the top 4 of any GT.
tulun wrote: Do Killtanks really kill enough for 400+ points? seems a mad price tag for more or less 1 gun.
.
1 gun, firing 6D6 shots at BS4+ with dakkax3, it's a pretty sweet gun. I was rolling mid-20's for its shots most of the game. It's also 24 wounds at T8, and does D3 mortal wounds on the charge (if you don't fluff your rolls...)
It's not going to slot into any list - but if you build a T7+ army of tanks, it will fit well. Important things to remember:
1: Bursta gun is not a powerful weapon. It's purpose is to inflict overkill on elite units, not to rip tanks apart, despite the S10 AP-4. Damage 2 is for killing primaris marines. My opponents utility was dramatically reduced when 2 of his units vanished on him.
2: It's not a gun platform - units hit on 6's off the back of a killtank, so unless you run Burnas (why??), you want to use it for delivering units, not taxiing them. Nobs and Meganobs are prime options for this.
3: Run them bloodaxe! It's a unit that wants to charge for D3 mortal wounds and 8 S10 attacks hitting on 3+, wants to shoot, and will draw fire from turn 1. turn 1 cover and fall-back & shoot/charge is invaluable for this many points that want to multi-task. The units it wants to bring inside it won't benefit much from other cultures either, they won't be mass-shooty, or even any good at shooting. Tankbustas worked but they would benefit bloodaxe if the enemy tries to lock them in CC. If you want to avoid combat, they can stay over 18" away and still have range to shoot, keeping the cover. Best culture for these, in my mind.
In a few games I will try out a single one in a game. I ran it in my first ever 8th edition game, and it was the only thing left in my army. I lost that game, but made heaps of mistakes, so I'm not surprised!
New time I play, it's trukks. Maybe I'll count out & repair my bikes (broken in house move / old, partial models from job lots) and see how a bike-heavy list plays out. I may need another wartrike, for thematic reasons...
Now, Photos of the game (unashamedly unpainted, I have very little hobby time any more :( )
Grimskul wrote: Wow, thanks for sharing that battle report, I've almost heard nothing about the kill tanks being used in most games. What did you feel about them, outside of taking them as Blood Axes? Do you think they're better or worse than taking multiple Big Trakks with either Supa Kannons or Supa Skorchas?
I've not played multiple big trakks, yet, though I have enough models to run 3-4 of them. I may build a list around them for a future game - they used to be looted wagons with boom guns, supa-kannon trakks makes sense. I will report back once I've had a game with them. My main draw to big trakks is their speed and the supa-skorcha, so I'll have to build more skorcha turrets for 2 of each.
I think the kill tanks main advantage is their resilience and pre-bracket 4+ to hit, plus their cost being maybe only slightly too high for their worth, unlike the stompa. You're unlikely to do a lot of winning in the knight meta, but my meta's still a bit old-school TAC.
Now that I consider my model collection, I have a 4th large tank which could readily be a killtank - my profile picture one! I could run supreme command + superheavy detachment for 4 killtanks and 4 KFF meks (one mega), points permitting. That would be a laugh! with 4 units on the field, turn 1 is almost a given. bloodaxes stop them from being hard countered by their social anxiety (I can't shoot with that guardsman so close to me!).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jidmah wrote: You might have found the one use for blood axes
Changing it from "oh no, better stand next to it!" to "Oh no, we have to kill it!" is worth losing other klan benefits - no use rerolling 1's or rerolling a single hit/wound/damage if you don't get to shoot!
Yes, I agree - it's just that blood axes are worthless for pretty much every other unit because few other ork units are ever in a situation where falling back is a serious option.
Jidmah wrote: Yes, I agree - it's just that blood axes are worthless for pretty much every other unit because few other ork units are ever in a situation where falling back is a serious option.
Fortunately the kill tanks transport capability is so limited as to be readily disregarded - meaning you can just run them in their own bloodaxe detachment and use another culture for the rest, provided you don't want to embark.
Hopefully the future will see a Battlefortress for us orks, so we can roll into battle all guns blazing. I miss my skullhamma and kustom battle fortress. :(
Emicrania wrote: I don't think anything we have will work untill they fix IH and adjust points on the last supplements/primaris
I found some advise which at least sounds like it makes sense:
First, all your melee has to go into the teleporter. You're not going to get anywhere on foot versus that list and the weapon profile is to deadly to start on the board at all. Next, look at your shooting; you should have some combination of SAG, lootas and mek gunz. Its so, so tempting to blow away high profile targets like dreads, repulsors, , aggressors, centurions, etc. Knowing full and well that they're going to blast you on the opposing shooting phase, you have to kill the screens instead. If you get screened out by scouts or marines, you'll never get to the thunderfires and they'll pick you apart and deny you the ability to do anything in melee, while remaining out of LoS to pick off your shooting units.
Honestly though, its a horrible matchup and almost every faction is struggling with the same problem.
If we had any kind of artillery (change KMK rules?), Scout units (Kommandoz should do that) or snipers (anything really) that could be a viable solution.
If the strategy against such an opponent (flood them with DSers) is optimal, maybe Kommandos are worth it to save on CP. A squad of 15 w/ Klaw is 133 each, and saves 6 CP if you take 3.
Stormboys can do similar too. More expensive, but you can fill out the squad to 20-30,and they also do well not deep striking if you are building this as a TAC.
You could pretty much land ever "boy" unit you have on turn 2 after hopefully blowing out infiltrators and scouts. One might eat an auspex scan, but the rest will survive. They could still zone out your charge on their softer units with proper placement, though.
Maybe tellyporting something like a Wazbom (or suicidally charging it forward if you get first turn) might work, too. You can kit one for as little as 145 points and it should probably be able to blow out at least 1 hidden TFC (2d3 Plasma Cannon hitting on 5s, 1d3 Smasha that hits on 4's.) But if they spam 3, I don't think that'll be enough.
If you hide 3 units of scout out of LoS midfield in a ruin or magic box, how are you gonna remove those screens?
Because that is exactly how I get my ass whooped Everytime . You can't jump anywhere worth to jump without getting aupex scanned to hell and back. You can't shoot them, you can't smite them. You have to charge them. Now how do you charge them if one unit get tremor shelled and the rest cannot come from da before T2
I just don't play with folks who do the "magic box" thing. A ruin should, at best, block LOS from two directions. If it's basically a fully intact building, how is it a ruin?
Even just a ruin with 2 side open, you need still to get there. So maybe a jump and a ES boyz charge, still a 70% chance ?
And yet just to kill a scout unit...
What about dakkajets and wazbom blastajets? You could deploy in the corners T1, then use them to hunt down hidden thunderfire cannons and possibly eliminators. This would also stretch how much board coverage the marine player needs if he tries to zone you out and could open up other opportunities.
Regarding the SSAG debate, the DS SSAG is superior, however, I have lists with a badmoon SSAG, this is so that I can fire my Morkanaut twice, and the SsAG, twice. But unless you have a list dependent reason you want the Deathakullz SSAG.
Emicrania wrote: 148 points of BM DJ does a whopping 2W vs a 81 points TFC
Is hopeless. Is like having a bicycle and trying to compete vs a Ferrari
Wazbom though (145 without KFF), let's assume Deathskull.
Averages 4 Plasma Cannon Shots hitting on 5s, 2 Smasha gun shots hitting on 4s.
Ignoring explosions, that's 1.33 hits from the Plasma cannon, 1.25 hits from the Smasha gun so 2.63 hits total.
Wounding on 3's, with a re-roll, pushes you to 2.xx wounds.
Smasha gun reduces armour to 6+, Plasma cannon to a 5+, and you re-roll damage.
I think it could smoke one easily, but if they are spamming 3? I dunno. You could split the Wazboms Mega Kannons onto 1 target and the Smasha gun onto a second and gamble, but I doubt that'll go well.
Deffskullz wazbom with dakka dakka dakka make about 8 dmg average to cannons
Gamble for two is to riski here. But one normally is save dead.
A dakka jet will do about ( bad moonz) will do about 2.
I permanently play a deffskull wazbom and I just can say it's awesome VS every army that has elite infantry or Vehikel or something, just bad vs mass cheap units
theres also the issue of can you not only get los but get it and not fly off the board next round.
Ive had to abandon my plans with planes several times because looking at their position where i could hit the target i wanted....i couldnt go anywhere after that. The 90 degree turn isnt as punishing now that we dont have firing arcs but its still pretty annoying.
Vineheart01 wrote: theres also the issue of can you not only get los but get it and not fly off the board next round.
Ive had to abandon my plans with planes several times because looking at their position where i could hit the target i wanted....i couldnt go anywhere after that. The 90 degree turn isnt as punishing now that we dont have firing arcs but its still pretty annoying.
Honestly, if TFCs are so devastating they own our army on their own, sacrificing the Wazbom is a small price to pay if it clears a couple off.
Ideally you set it up so it stays alive, or maybe it *looks* like it'll go off but it doesn't and they don't bother shooting it. But I can't imagine it'll stay alive more than 1 round anyway if they want it off the board.
Really, this is just brainstorming to see if there's any tech we can come up with to help with the matchup. More entertaining than just saying 'we're fethed'.
Well the best thing would be a sqaut deep strike bustas, they could wrack three thunder fire easy. The problem will you bring then down in range.
If yes they are you get the tfcs
Just saw that TFC are veichle....
FFS....
Than tankabusta COULD be the answer.
The problem is if that fething thing is in a successor chapter so is "stealthy" (feth you GW, really) . 1+ save outside 12", so 3+ vs TB. Those guys really could use a bump in AP
Jep you need to come under 12 would be the best ( of its raven guard)
24 range is a good point to play tank bustas vs tfcs.
You may can find a good space in Los.
Than more dakka double shot the hell out of the army
Emicrania wrote: Just saw that TFC are veichle....
FFS....
Than tankabusta COULD be the answer.
The problem is if that fething thing is in a successor chapter so is "stealthy" (feth you GW, really) . 1+ save outside 12", so 3+ vs TB. Those guys really could use a bump in AP
Without Stealthy, Bad Moonz w/ More Dakka with an average roll could kill all 3. I think it's around 8 failed saves total.
With stealthy, its ~5 failed wounds total, and you need 2 each. Just short.
Bomb squigs could make the difference if you could get within 18".
But tbh, even Nick Navanti's list only had 2 TFCs in it, so maybe popping 2 is enough. Or just add something like a Wazbom in combination or a second, small unit of TBs.
I imagine that vs whirlwinds and TFC's, MSU could be the answer - they can't split their shots, can they?
I'm not sure on their stats but I imagine you could cause a lot of concern by tellyporting 3 deff dreads in their vicinity. a unit of 3 dreads kitted with KMB's and 3 lone koptas with KMB's, deffskulls, can appear on turn 2. single koptas can usually get a little gap by a board edge and firing a rerollable KMB can do some decent damage. The extra AP will go a long way to help too.
Relying on their bad reputation, a unit of 5 burnas in a trukk, but 3 of them are KMB spannas, could do some damage. you could even have 3 units of them and jump them in, if you don't need the elite slots.
KMB meks jumped in with character protection? I've jumped KMB meks in to try and tackle hard targets before.
With jumping a KMB-burna squad, outflanking 3 koptas and a unit of 3 deff dread jumping in, you've got 12 kustom-mega-blastas appearing suddenly, with rerolls for 7 hits/wounds/damage rolls. That should take out some TFC's. Whirlwinds (IIRC) are mainly anti-infantry, and thunderfires rely on slowing you down as a side effect, which isn't too bad on a 24" range gun. Plus, this would put 7 units in his face for him to deal with, and not for all that many points, really.
I may try and factor in the unit of dreads in future lists, just for such occasions. I usually have a deffkopta or 2 in there as well, which is nice.
Yea! that was a mistake, I put a legend big mek and not the KFF one.
I did not get some squiggs cuz they use to fail and I lose 20 points, do you think it's worth? I can look for a space for them
I ave a serious doubt here, because in the CA 2019 it says big mek KFF = 55 points, so I must understand this HQ cost 55 points, and putting a KFF in another miniature would cost +20, but this +20 doesn't apply here? I'm wrong?
Kebabcito wrote: Yea! that was a mistake, I put a legend big mek and not the KFF one.
I did not get some squiggs cuz they use to fail and I lose 20 points, do you think it's worth? I can look for a space for them
How can you fail with bomb squigs? It's a 2+ roll with a reroll. If you fail both of them, buy some lotterytickets because you'd be completely out of bad luck.
I ave a serious doubt here, because in the CA 2019 it says big mek KFF = 55 points, so I must understand this HQ cost 55 points, and putting a KFF in another miniature would cost +20, but this +20 doesn't apply here? I'm wrong?
A bm kff is 55 pts without wargear. So add a kff to it is 20 points. For 75pts total
I was a little curious about the whole "best klan for Souped up Shokka" and mostly around the sheer random maths. As a result Ive written some C to brute force if, because it seemed like a fun challenge.
Quick and dirty results over 10000 firings given klan of either deathskullz or badmoonz with dakkadakka active vs a toughness 7 target it seems deathskullz tends to be roughly 1.5 wounds more.
Of course, this is using the not so overly random rand() function and assumes the code isn't terrible and full of errors. If anyone else would like to find such bugs or muck around with it in general you can find the code here:
Lysit wrote: I was a little curious about the whole "best klan for Souped up Shokka" and mostly around the sheer random maths. As a result Ive written some C to brute force if, because it seemed like a fun challenge.
Quick and dirty results over 10000 firings given klan of either deathskullz or badmoonz with dakkadakka active vs a toughness 7 target it seems deathskullz tends to be roughly 1.5 wounds more.
Of course, this is using the not so overly random rand() function and assumes the code isn't terrible and full of errors. If anyone else would like to find such bugs or muck around with it in general you can find the code here:
i think the only way youre going to get an "accurate" result for SSAG math is if you go into the millions of shots. Just factoring how many different shot potentials it has alone is a lot of instances (how many shots at what strength). Nevermind the hyperswingy accuracy, DDD, and kulture rerolls. Im not a math wiz though. My major/current job really has no complex math involved so what i learned in college....6 years ago is kinda muddy at best.
Sorry to side track the conversation but I'm trying to figure out my army. I haven't played yet but I've been collecting since August and so far I've only picked up used Lots of boyz. Some of them I have been able to build myself, which I enjoy immensely, but some were already assembled.
I have ended up with a lot of shoota's, and I don't know how to use them. From everything I've seen almost everyone prefers slugga/choppas which make up the majority of what I have which is cool. But I have about 16 shootas and I'm not sure how to use them.
When I build a list, is it better to have a group of all shootas and a group of all slugga/choppas? Do I sprinkle a few shootas into each group?
Right now this is what I'm working with.
Gretchen 10
Stormboyz 5
Burnaboyz 9
Tankbustas 7
Nobz 19
Nob with Banner 2
Spanner 2
Mek with sag 2
Big Mek with KFF 1
Warbikers 15
Meganobz 3
Komandos 11
Boyz 51
Heavy shoota 4
Shootas 16
Deffcoptas 3
Warboss 2
Painboy 2
Warboss in Mega Armor 1
Loota 4
Trukk
Wierdboy 1
Only thing I don't see is the 2 rolls for 2D6 strength, but I have no time to read the code, so I'm probably missing it and it's well done, good job.
Its done on line 268.
I've just found a bug and corrected the paste. It always assumed the deathskulls reroll to hit was used before rolling extra hits from dakkadakkadakka. Now it'll use this roll on a dakkadakkadakka hit roll if miraculously all initial hit rolls hit.
I've enjoyed running 20-strong shoota mobs in a battlewagon. If integrated into a list with other vehicles rushing at the enemy, the battlewagon hanging back tends to do well when 40 shoota shots suddenly burst out of it. does quite well for clearing low-tier infantry & screens.
8 shootas, 1 rokkit and 1 kombi-rokkit nob in a trukk is powerful as deathskulls. it's cheap, manoeuvrable, and kicks well when it wants to (got the perfect 4 hits once or twice with the rokkits, hurrah for dakkax3!). you have enough shootas for 2 trukks-full, if you can make the rokkit-nobs and rokkit-boys to go with them.
I haven't considered mixing the unit as it was always better in the past to go all-or-nothing. 50:50 units could be more versatile, removing the models you're least likely to need when you take fire. a 30-strong mob which, after casualties, could either be 15 shootas or 15 sluggas is quite a good prospect. Never expect my boys to arrive unscathed, except if they jump and another unit tanks the overwatch.
I may try mixed units next game. It's all about 'sperimentin'!
If you still have the sprues, I'd consider changing the burna's to lootas. With another box of lootas to top 'm up to 15 (or kitbash some) and 2 more boxes of grots. You can make 2 battalions or a brigade. With that, you'll have a start of a nice army.
Ya, my plan is to get more Gretchen for sure, and while I do like kit bashing, I'm staying away from lootas, I'd rather have the real things as I really like the way they look. I'm the same with flash gitz, I love the way they look and would really like to pick some of those up.
Haasbioroid wrote: Ya, my plan is to get more Gretchen for sure, and while I do like kit bashing, I'm staying away from lootas, I'd rather have the real things as I really like the way they look. I'm the same with flash gitz, I love the way they look and would really like to pick some of those up.
If you think you'll play lots of marines, avoid Lootas anyway. They are dead weight in the matchup.
Gruxz wrote: Yeah FG do rock. Do you guys think going higher then 10 is too much? I run buggie/mekgun lists.
I think its one of those things that need experimenting. Honestly, if you can get 2 full rounds of shooting with 20 flash gits against the marine matchup, that might actually win you the game.
Question still stands how we effectively keep them alive. Trukks help, but I'm not sure they last 2 turns.
Gruxz wrote: 20 gitz thats a whole lot man. I was thinking 15 divided between 2 trucks.
I guess 20 could fit into 2 battlewagons. But by then you're 800pts deep. Smash some grots in there with a bmkff and a bm ssag and you're way past 1k.
Do 15 and 2 trukks thats 500 with room to spare for mek guns and grots and whatever. What do you think?
I think you need to fill out both trukks, simply for the ammo runts to take the wounds when the trukk pops. You're already paying so much for the trukk
It's 312 points for 10 gits, 2 runts, and a trukk.
I'm wondering if we could cheat it a bit, and tellyporta the 2nd unit of gits in turn 2 to save us on a 2nd trukk.
Grand total then is 560 points. That's not too bad.
If you put both in a battle wagon (although they'd have zero runts), you could do so for as little as 600 points (battlewagon with zero upgrades and guns).
It seems to cost between 560-624 points if you go the mecha style. Definitely not 800 points
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, 1 each? Yeah, that seems crazy overkill.
For 56 points with ZERO guns and upgrades, each battlewagon gives you:
+1 toughness
+6 wounds
and loses:
Ramshackle
That's about it. I honestly think Trukks are perfect. 10 wounds, T6, 4+ save, Ramshackle at 64 points is an okay price point for ablative wounds. Doubling the cost once you start taking goodies for only 6 more wounds.. I dunno. I think we need to be super scrimpy in competitive Ork lists.
So apparently the squiggy buggy got a price reduction. Is it still trash? What about buggies in general, because I think a few of them received reductions as well.
Jidmah wrote: Yes, I agree - it's just that blood axes are worthless for pretty much every other unit because few other ork units are ever in a situation where falling back is a serious option.
Fortunately the kill tanks transport capability is so limited as to be readily disregarded - meaning you can just run them in their own bloodaxe detachment and use another culture for the rest, provided you don't want to embark.
Hopefully the future will see a Battlefortress for us orks, so we can roll into battle all guns blazing. I miss my skullhamma and kustom battle fortress. :(
Try fill the kill tank with 10x Nobs with Kombi Skorcha + 2xAmmo Runts to get round the 6+ to hit thing
that is 10xD6 Auto hits after falling back lol stupid but funneh and Orky
if it pops give the nobz a 3+ save with Loot It and tank the disembark with the ammo runts.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: So apparently the squiggy buggy got a price reduction. Is it still trash? What about buggies in general, because I think a few of them received reductions as well.
Oh yeah, its still trash.
It will remain trash until its guns actually have a purpose. Right now they lack the RoF or punch to do anything worth of 100pts we cant do elsewhere for better/cheaper
KBBs are pretty good though at 80pts
Jidmah wrote: Yes, I agree - it's just that blood axes are worthless for pretty much every other unit because few other ork units are ever in a situation where falling back is a serious option.
Fortunately the kill tanks transport capability is so limited as to be readily disregarded - meaning you can just run them in their own bloodaxe detachment and use another culture for the rest, provided you don't want to embark.
Hopefully the future will see a Battlefortress for us orks, so we can roll into battle all guns blazing. I miss my skullhamma and kustom battle fortress. :(
Try fill the kill tank with 10x Nobs with Kombi Skorcha + 2xAmmo Runts to get round the 6+ to hit thing
that is 10xD6 Auto hits after falling back lol stupid but funneh and Orky
if it pops give the nobz a 3+ save with Loot It and tank the disembark with the ammo runts.
Horribly expensive but funny
I dread to think how expensive a kill tank full of kombi-skorchas would be... but it does sound fun. Though I might be more tempted by multiple big-trakks full of kombi-skorchas, wielding skorchas and supa-skorchas! you'd only need 6 per trakk, so a little cheaper.
I have a few agreeable opponents, I might proxy 3 of them one game for a bit of fun!
I tried the big trakk with supa-skorcha, 2x skorchas filled with skorcha nobs back when our codex dropped. It wasn't great haha, fun but pretty much useless sadly. With point drops happening to so many things since but none of the above it's comparatively speaking way worse now..
The supa-skorcha being heavy just makes it not worth it alone since either you forgo its shooting T1 or everyone else. It won't be left standing T2
PiñaColada wrote: I tried the big trakk with supa-skorcha, 2x skorchas filled with skorcha nobs back when our codex dropped. It wasn't great haha, fun but pretty much useless sadly. With point drops happening to so many things since but none of the above it's comparatively speaking way worse now..
The supa-skorcha being heavy just makes it not worth it alone since either you forgo its shooting T1 or everyone else. It won't be left standing T2
This small stupid things fills me with rage. The whole purpose of the damn thing is to move and flame dudes. What is the point of staying still in deployment zone or waiting t2 to do anything?!?
Has anyone tried out infiltration style lists in maelstrom?
It seems like you could build a fun list where you bring like:
3 15 man Kommando units (make them Evil suns for the charge bonus)
3 5 man Nob units w/ Big Choppas (95 points, Blood axes for 1 CP infiltrate)
Snikrot
Whatever else you feel like Deep Striking with Tellyporta (Deff Dreads perhaps?)
Then you just flood your opponent turn 2/3 with an entire horde appearing anywhere you want on the board. Just use the first turn to push some board position and clear out deepstrike screens.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Goonhammer has finally done Da Boyz.
PiñaColada wrote: I tried the big trakk with supa-skorcha, 2x skorchas filled with skorcha nobs back when our codex dropped. It wasn't great haha, fun but pretty much useless sadly. With point drops happening to so many things since but none of the above it's comparatively speaking way worse now..
The supa-skorcha being heavy just makes it not worth it alone since either you forgo its shooting T1 or everyone else. It won't be left standing T2
What difference does it make that it’s heavy? It doesn’t roll to hit, and even if it did the big Trakks has the same rule as the Bw , move and shoot heavy with no penalty, plus 24” range on the thing means it’s always got something to shoot turn one after you move up. And Gorks teeth everything we got dies turn two or one if they want it dead. I run mine ( armorcast bowelburna) alongside Bws and it either draws fire from the wagons or vice versa, I put tankbustas in mine so it’s a threat to both horde and armor.
You cant advance and fire heavy weapons period, thats the issue.
The other flamers are assault so the bigtrakk can advance, and with flamers thats kinda needed.
Again why is that an issue? Big Trakks are fast, M14 inches beats any other land vehicle, why would they need to advance? The supa skorcha is the only flamer, put something useful like tankbustas or Freebootas in it , not trash like Burna boys. Plus your overlooking one little thing that can be very useful about FW transports, they’re not clan locked like codex transports are.
Because 14" + 8" (the skorcha range) equals to 22", most standard deployments are further away than that meaning either all those skorchas don't get to fire T1 or you advance getting an extra d6" range but the superskorcha then becomes ineligible since its heavy.
Sure, it might get to fire at some forward deployment units or if you go second but the amount of firepower you're getting inside of those very static 22" makes it easy to outmaneuver and it's just too many points for something that's fairly flimsy.
Again, this is for an all flamer big trakk build. If you were to put tankbustas in it, or flash gitz, then the problem becomes a lot smaller (actually flash gitz being heavy as well means they wouldn't even want to advance anyways so no issue at all there)..
Lysit wrote: I was a little curious about the whole "best klan for Souped up Shokka" and mostly around the sheer random maths. As a result Ive written some C to brute force if, because it seemed like a fun challenge.
Quick and dirty results over 10000 firings given klan of either deathskullz or badmoonz with dakkadakka active vs a toughness 7 target it seems deathskullz tends to be roughly 1.5 wounds more.
Of course, this is using the not so overly random rand() function and assumes the code isn't terrible and full of errors. If anyone else would like to find such bugs or muck around with it in general you can find the code here:
As I pointed out, the SSAG has somewhat like 10^56 possible results (see my previous post for exact number), 10000 firings are not going to be enough to appease the law of great numbers. Have it run for a week or so, then you should be getting proper results
Would it actually be useful to make Big Trakks blood axes? They get a 3+ armour save out of 18” and can fallback if tagged. But I guess deathskulls might just be better.
I'd say "no", just because of how difficult it is to stay outside 18" on a 4'×6' game board. And the long range stuff usually has high AP, so it's not really improving your survivability. As always, your long-range guns of choice are Mek Gunz, SAGs, and Lootaz (none of which want to be Blood Axes).
flandarz wrote: I'd say "no", just because of how difficult it is to stay outside 18" on a 4'×6' game board. And the long range stuff usually has high AP, so it's not really improving your survivability. As always, your long-range guns of choice are Mek Gunz, SAGs, and Lootaz (none of which want to be Blood Axes).
I was even thinking for the super scorcha version even. People don’t necessarily wanna get close to a str 6 ap-2 1D heavy flamethrower.
3+ armour save is the same as a KFF with ap-2 ( better with less ), same as DS invul save at ap-3, strictly worse ap-4.
But yeah. If it was a stealthy 12” range instead of 18”...
Hi all. I’m thinking of running Flash Gitz and Badrukk with ammo Runts and a KFF in a Battlewagon. It’s going to be a bad moon detachment. Can Badrukk give the flash Gitz reroll ones to hit if they are all in a Battlewagon?
Logically, he should. However, because Badrukk isn't on the board, you can't measure the 6" (or whatever it is) to see if the Flash Gitz are within his aura range. That's the reason.
If people are running flash Gitz and lootas, how do you protect both whilst optimising their shooting? Grot shields is one way but that can only save one unit.
Automatically Appended Next Post: If I run flash Gitz and lootas, what’s the best way of protecting both units whilst optimising their shooting? Grot shields can protect one but the other unit will be obliterated first turn.
1) hide them under a KFF and footslog them.
2) put them in a Trukk or BW and drive them up (you'll lose out on reroll 1s, but that's not a huge problem).
3) hide them out of LoS and Da Jump them up.
4) put them in a Tellyporta and bring them in on T2.
Pick your poison. I didn't list using Grot Shields in the Gitz, because you will always want to use it on the Lootas. They just have fewer options for defense. Side note: Lootas and Gitz fill the same niche in your army, so I'd suggest only using one or the other.
Cheers for that. I usually play with dakka Jets x 3 with lootas, Mek Gunz and SSAG as my shooting options but I’m trying to build a more anti meta list and the flash Gitz sound best at the moment. Just trying to find a way so that half my army doesn’t get blown away early in the game
I think the tricky part of making an anti marine list right now is that they're actually a bit varied. You need to be able to take down heavy vehicles, light vehicles, 2 wound infantry in cover. Be able to take hordes of anti infantry fire, a good chunk of anti tank fire and some very potent fast moving melee threats. The points drops gave us a handful of more useful options in the form of Gitz and the buggies, but in regards to special rules and gimmicks we're still a couple steps behind in our current form. Maybe once the saga of the beast comes round we'll have a more rounded out toolbox. But I dunno, new edition is said to be on the horizon.
The way they are handling 8th there isnt a reason to release a new edition really.
Almost all the rules are in the individual codex, just rerelease the codex to revamp the army. Unless they decide to do another overhaul that is.
Hogiebear wrote: If people are running flash Gitz and lootas, how do you protect both whilst optimising their shooting? Grot shields is one way but that can only save one unit.
Automatically Appended Next Post: If I run flash Gitz and lootas, what’s the best way of protecting both units whilst optimising their shooting? Grot shields can protect one but the other unit will be obliterated first turn.
Well don't use lootaz they aren't good enough and to cost intesiv to play in my opinion.
Ap - 1 break them hard.
Use flash gitz via Tellyport or trukk.
Make pressure with lotza things than the enemy can't focus them easy
Any exp with the list like that? No CC. Pure BM and DS shooting. Lootas on the table from T1 covered by KFF and grots, Tankbustas Tellyport T2 or 3 in range. Jets makes them a place. Dakkajet, Lootas and Tankbustas are BM. In my exp, one of them died every turn, so More Dakka and Showin' off combo could be used every turn effectivelly.
Maybe to many tanks, dreadnoughts and other high HP targets around me, hmm? In fact I don' t remember facing any hord army last year...
There's a KFF Big Mek in the CA points, although there's no specific datasheet.
If you're intention is to ONLY take the KFF for the Big Mek, we have the precise points values, just take one with a choppa and call it a day (like we've always done). If someone complains, they probably aren't worth your time playing anyway.
I've started work on a Shokkjump Dragsta, and I could have sworn I've seen somebody do a cool conversion where the Dragsta is emerging from its warp tunnel like its just jumped, But my Google Search came up empty, does anybody else remember it? or did I just see a discussion talking about how cool that would be?
Big Mek KFF - As Tulun mentioned - there is something slightly confusing in CA. I keep calm and carry on with old stats until something is explicitly banned.
But that is definitelynot the point of the list. Could be substitued with other KFF options.
There's a KFF Big Mek in the CA points, although there's no specific datasheet.
If you're intention is to ONLY take the KFF for the Big Mek, we have the precise points values, just take one with a choppa and call it a day (like we've always done). If someone complains, they probably aren't worth your time playing anyway.
Agree, the intention is clearly that the old KFF Big Mek keeps being a choice - so if you run that model as WYSIWYG (meaning choppa and KFF as only wargear), you should not have any trouble.
It's also pretty clear that you pay the base 55 plus 20 points for KFF, because that's how the SAG mek works as well.
It looks pretty strong! Obviously give your shokk attack gun mek a grot oiler for an ablative wound, and add an extra grot in one of your units so you'll land on an even 1k. No sense in not utilising all your points.
Marines will be an issue for a list so heavily invested in boyz but there's not much to be done about that IMO
PiñaColada wrote: It looks pretty strong! Obviously give your shokk attack gun mek a grot oiler for an ablative wound, and add an extra grot in one of your units so you'll land on an even 1k. No sense in not utilising all your points.
Marines will be an issue for a list so heavily invested in boyz but there's not much to be done about that IMO
True, i'll invest those 7 points left, thanks.
I know SM will very so hard to deal with, but as you say, I havn't much options, only pray for matching the duo with another SM player.
PiñaColada wrote: It looks pretty strong! Obviously give your shokk attack gun mek a grot oiler for an ablative wound, and add an extra grot in one of your units so you'll land on an even 1k. No sense in not utilising all your points.
Marines will be an issue for a list so heavily invested in boyz but there's not much to be done about that IMO
True, i'll invest those 7 points left, thanks.
I know SM will very so hard to deal with, but as you say, I havn't much options, only pray for matching the duo with another SM player.
1000 seems rough, but yeah, maybe your pair will make up for the matchup. Honestly, you'd probably just toss in as many mek guns and SAGs as you can fit and hope you can shoot em down, I guess.
A question :
Isn't it better to use 2x5 flash gitz in a truck than 1x10 because of two captains, and two times rolling for shoot again?
( don't use strats on them because I use it for other units)
On 
You can take as many as you want.
