Yes, it would be better to have two, five Git units if you do not use strategems on them. Two Kaplan’s, two opportunities for GunCrazy Show Off.
If you intend to Loot the destroyed Trukk, then one unit would be cheaper on CP, and if you intend to Charge them, it would be two Charge rolls to make.
I add Ammo Runts to my Gitz in a Trukk, to soak up casualties from the Trukk being destroyed.
Agree, if you don't plan to use Da Jump or Tellyport on them, 2x5 is superior to 1x10, even if it's just for the fact that they can be in two different.
T1nk4bell wrote: A question :
Isn't it better to use 2x5 flash gitz in a truck than 1x10 because of two captains, and two times rolling for shoot again?
( don't use strats on them because I use it for other units)
You net .5 more hits from having 2 kaptins (ignoring explosions, which will obviously shift the math a bit). You're really banking on making that Showin' Off roll.
I think it really depends on your opponent.
Loot it can really help their survivability and it's wasted on a 5 man unit (or at least half as efficient).
More dakka can also really help in a pinch against an army that can stack -hit modifiers like Eldar.
So it's roughly:
Full benefits from Stratagems (Loot it, More Dakka)
vs
~.5 hit and double the chance of getting another round of shooting of 15 shots.
And potentially a partner for Freeboota kultur proc.
Think it's just a judgment call, it's definitely a useful idea against some armies. If you get that double proc off (which might also trigger the freeboota trait if they are both on the board).
T1nk4bell wrote: Jep the point is I don't use Strategems on my flash gitz because I use it on other units.
For sure. I would say better is hard to say, as even having the option of using stratagems is good even if other units get priority, but it's interesting tech. It can provide subtle benefits (and problems).
Morale is more of an issue, but the enemy has to split fire on you, you can potentially pop a transport and have the 2nd unit shoot inside, it helps fill out a spearhead detachment in smaller point games, etc, etc.
There's one Stratagem that (in my opinion) has no better targets than Flash Gitz: Loot It. If your Trukk gets popped, and you can make it to Cover with your Disembark, you're looking at an effective 2+ against Ranged attacks, for the (relatively) low cost of 62 (or so) points and 1 CP. My preferred load-out for a Trukk is 8 Gitz, 1 Kaptin, 2 Ammo Runts, and Badrukk. Keep it under a KFF when you deploy it, then move up to center board, wait for it to pop, and enjoy some decent durability (for Orkz).
flandarz wrote: There's one Stratagem that (in my opinion) has no better targets than Flash Gitz: Loot It. If your Trukk gets popped, and you can make it to Cover with your Disembark, you're looking at an effective 2+ against Ranged attacks, for the (relatively) low cost of 62 (or so) points and 1 CP. My preferred load-out for a Trukk is 8 Gitz, 1 Kaptin, 2 Ammo Runts, and Badrukk. Keep it under a KFF when you deploy it, then move up to center board, wait for it to pop, and enjoy some decent durability (for Orkz).
I'm inclined to do this but without Baddruk. He's really good, but man, I find Ork lists get so tight when you flesh out the whole army.
Considering the normal 3 bats we take, we're already (typically) taking a Bike Boss, a KFF Mek, 2 Weirdboys, and 2 Shock attack guns. I guess you could just swap out a weirdboy for Baddruk, but I love warpath too much.
Spending another 84-88 points on an HQ that isn't for a required slots seems tough. It's also a rotten shame his aura doesn't work while they are mounted as well.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
T1nk4bell wrote: You can't get two ammo runt with 8 gits and a kaptain. 9r you mean se ammo runt from baddruk
Agreed, and you probably still have some grots you can da jump onto objectives or a warboss/wartrike you want to buff with fists of gork. Besides they're cheap HQs, weirdboys are tough to live without in any ork list IMO
PiñaColada wrote: Agreed, and you probably still have some grots you can da jump onto objectives or a warboss/wartrike you want to buff with fists of gork. Besides they're cheap HQs, weirdboys are tough to live without in any ork list IMO
Legit good, not great. It would be nice to have a bit bulkier psychic dudes. Any Snipers basically wreck them.
But it’s hard to fit more than 6 HQsimo without starting to sacrifice other units you need.
So who gets dropped for baddruk? Interesting question.
I do usually bring along a Weirdboy, but he mostly just kinda hangs back and drops the odd Smite every so often. If I'm fielding Badrukk, I'll bring 3 SAGs (1 with SSAG), Badrukk, a Weirdboy, and a KFF Mek. That's my 6, and they're all relatively cheap.
tulun wrote: I was curious if you mech players went with 3 bats or did 2 bats plus outrider or spearhead.
Seems like when I’ve brewed lists 3 bats seems really limiting. Saving 152 points minimum on Grots plus an HQ seems nice.
Stil experimenting, but it feels like 2 bats plus airwing feels best so far, saving yet another tax HQ. Deff skulls brigade seems nice in theory, but you really don't want any of the elites besides Grotznik.
tulun wrote: I was curious if you mech players went with 3 bats or did 2 bats plus outrider or spearhead.
Seems like when I’ve brewed lists 3 bats seems really limiting. Saving 152 points minimum on Grots plus an HQ seems nice.
Stil experimenting, but it feels like 2 bats plus airwing feels best so far, saving yet another tax HQ. Deff skulls brigade seems nice in theory, but you really don't want any of the elites besides Grotznik.
Makes sense to me. Our HQs aren’t taken with much joy outside the SSAG.
Have you done 2 Wazbom / Dakkajet? I have one of each, wonder if I should snag a 3rd for an air wing.
tulun wrote: I was curious if you mech players went with 3 bats or did 2 bats plus outrider or spearhead.
Seems like when I’ve brewed lists 3 bats seems really limiting. Saving 152 points minimum on Grots plus an HQ seems nice.
Stil experimenting, but it feels like 2 bats plus airwing feels best so far, saving yet another tax HQ. Deff skulls brigade seems nice in theory, but you really don't want any of the elites besides Grotznik.
Makes sense to me. Our HQs aren’t taken with much joy outside the SSAG.
Have you done 2 Wazbom / Dakkajet? I have one of each, wonder if I should snag a 3rd for an air wing.
I'm thinking 2 Burna bommers + Wazbomm actually. For 5 points their skorcha missiles are actually a good deal, and I love to wipe the smug face from elimimator's faces when they realize they are taking 4+ saves. Plus marines feature lots of immobile units nowadays, so parking them on top of a TF cannon or two might be a viable strategy to keep them safe.
Bommers are able to drop the bombs mostly t2 and I prefer maximum dakka t1.
BM dakkajet with18 shots 6/-1/1 hitting on 4+ with reroll of 1, especially with more dakka and showin off strat to fire twice = nice devastation of enemy troops hiden behind the buildings t1.
Dakka Jets can't fire twice dude
And with more dakka and BA moonz we talking about 5 dmg average against primaris without cover.
Without more dakka it's 4 dmg ( two dead primaris)
Not worth taking VS Marines.
Take 3 wazbom vs Marines will be better
As deffskullz alone each smasha kill 1-2 Marines average.
Than you have 6xd3 kmk shots with three hit and wound and dmg rerolls
It's about 3 dakka Jets = 6 dead primaris vs wazbom 9+ average and the wazbom is far better VS Vehikel useble
Yeah fair. Wazboms seem legit good in the marine matchup and are overkill in others.
I love Dakkajets, though. If you focus fire, they are BS4 or BS5 after damaged.
Burna Bomber seems to be a take to screw over eliminators lol. I think you’d generally want a DJ or Wazbom usually. Wazbom can also wreck eliminators. If you forgo the KFF, they are actually really cheap.
I gotta say I love this air wing idea. Subtracting 2 HQs and 3 grot squads saves you at minimum 214 points and probably closer to 230-250 ( as you probably can drop your KFF Mek and still want weirdboys). Air wing will probably cost you 430-460 points. Spend 210-240 points for 3 jets? Heck yes.
We also have that one cheap stratagem for our flyers to screw over fly units. 1 CP for +1 BS...
Big trakk plus super skorcha and 6 FG is 314 points.
Trukk plus 10 gits and 2 runts is 312 points.
Big trakk gets 4D3 auto hitting heavy flamer attacks, with death skull is over 6 wounds a round against T5 or less. I think that outpaces 4FG and also gets around any negative hit modifiers the enemy can screw you with.
Big trakk has better movement, 5 more wounds, and is less hurt by degradation. It doesn’t have ramshackle though.
4d3 Auto hits =8 average. After Wounding t4-5=. 5 wounds after save = let's say a primaris = 2,6 dmg or better about one primaris.
You drop 4 flash gitz for that = 1,7 dead primaris
Tomsug wrote: It' s infantry only, you' re right! Damn!
Wazboom is great, no discuss. But to clean 1W guardsman and other sim stuff, is the WB little bit overkill.
I dont use boyz so dakkajet is my primary GEQ cleaner.
That's the reason I'm trying burna bommers right now. I have no trouble clearing GEQ with my mech army, but they struggle with hordes. In addition burna bommer is really good at clearing out scouts though, and bomb+shooting can also take away ~3 models from a unit of 5 primaris marines.
I never had an issue with finding a target T1, and it's 11 points cheaper than a dakkajet. Plus I like how it forces the enemy to move, something they don't really want to do against orks.
That's the reason I'm trying burna bommers right now. I have no trouble clearing GEQ with my mech army, but they struggle with hordes. In addition burna bommer is really good at clearing out scouts though, and bomb+shooting can also take away ~3 models from a unit of 5 primaris marines.
I never had an issue with finding a target T1, and it's 11 points cheaper than a dakkajet. Plus I like how it forces the enemy to move, something they don't really want to do against orks.
The only problem I see is that the Burna Bomber isn't that threatening to Primaris marines and marines in general. 2 Supa shootas and a big shoota have 9 shots, 3 will hit, about 2 wound (explosions only add a bit more)... nothing insane. The Skorcha missile is good against eliminators, but you could achieve similar with a wazbom in turns of shooting against eliminators and primaris in general (Wazbom smasha also hits on a 4+ first tier, 5+ second and 3rd tier, and protects itself better if you have the points). Wazbom if you decide to forego the KFF and other upgrades is as cheap as 145 points.
I could see the marine player just dinging both so it hits on a 6+ (shouldn't be hard for them to do), then just waiting until the next turn for them to move far away from their more squishy backline units. And in other matchups, it's probably deadweight.
I haven't faced the IF player yet after the supplement, but I don't think an ork mech list would have any chance against him anyways - he has tabled all his opponents so far.
Burna bommers are great fun and they're one of the things that were low-key helped out a lot in CA 2019, with their (very fair) reduction of skorcha missiles. There's still a reason to be somewhat afraid of them even after 2 turns of bommin' now and the fact that they blow up big on a 4+ means there's movement shenanigans to be had with boxing people in/blocking pathways and then forcing them to be slowed down or risk taking a huge explosion.
To be fair, I think all of our planes are good. They're not necessarily top tier compared to other factions' but you can easily find a use for them in most lists
I just love deffkulz wazboms.
2for 300 points
2d3 smasha, 4d3 kustom kannon is the fire power of a gorkanaut with "more" life - 1 to hit, pretty mobile
With all the rerolls just nice
Can somone explain to me why Warbikers are rated better than nobz on bikes after the points drop. I'm new and want to run a biker based list but I just can't see how the regular warbikers are better.
Question about mek guns. I got a box for Christmas and went ahead and built one. Is it worth putting just one in a small army? I plan on eventually getting a trukk kit and using the rest of the bits, but should I even bother with just one gun? Whats the minimum to bring that would be worthwhile?
Coleslaw wrote: Can somone explain to me why Warbikers are rated better than nobz on bikes after the points drop. I'm new and want to run a biker based list but I just can't see how the regular warbikers are better.
For me, it's about the guns and durability. The huge amount of S5 fire that even 5 bikes can put out with their 6 dakkaguns apiece, on the still T5 4+ frame. When you look at the nobs where you pay around 30% more for an extra wound, S, and attack for close combat on a unit that is probably happiest just moving around the board max speed applying weight of fire where you need it rather than charging in. I do sometimes charge with my bikes but they are not nearly as punchy as they were in editions past and oftentimes I find I've misjudged how good a job they'll do mopping up a unit they've already shot - the same is true for the nobs unless I've poured even more points into them.
Coleslaw wrote:Can somone explain to me why Warbikers are rated better than nobz on bikes after the points drop. I'm new and want to run a biker based list but I just can't see how the regular warbikers are better.
Honestly, neither are great but after the nob on warbike point drop they don't stack up terribly anymore. 3W is a lot better than 2W but you're paying a big premium for it. Considering how expensive ork wargear is those guys can easily run away in cost and running them naked just doesn't differentiate them enough from normal warbikers IMO. Quite frankly, unless you're running them with ded shiny bitz both units are invalidated by big shoota deffkoptas.
Haasbioroid wrote:Question about mek guns. I got a box for Christmas and went ahead and built one. Is it worth putting just one in a small army? I plan on eventually getting a trukk kit and using the rest of the bits, but should I even bother with just one gun? Whats the minimum to bring that would be worthwhile?
It sort of depends on the rest of your force of course but smasha guns are so incredibly cheap still that even just one in your backfield is never a bad investment really
I don't think Warbikers are all that bad *if* you add Kult of Speed.
All of a sudden you can make a 40+ inch charge while taking a Biker Boss. And this gets around both Auspex scan and infiltrators. Deffkoptas require you to take the Wartrike for a similar charge, which sucks hard.
Warbikers differentiate themselves from Deff Koptas because they are designed to get more stuck in. More models, better leadership, more attacks, can take a Big Choppa / PK / Killsaw. A single Deffkopta dies and you can start to lose models (and a single Deff Kopta is not hard to dispatch).
I think they are probably closer to overpriced for what we get category w/ Kult of Speed, like many units in the codex. If they dropped even 3 points a model they might become a really good unit.
tulun wrote: I don't think Warbikers are all that bad *if* you add Kult of Speed. <SNIP>
Look, I will concede the point that the difference in regards to HQs required is a fair point, but offering up the Kult of Speed detachment as a potential saviour of the unit rings somewhat hollow in my experience.
First off, you're probably taking that detachment solely for that specific stratagem so even just using it once has costed you 3CP. That brings you to the issue of that the bikes will become super quick but has to maintain 6" coherency to the biker boss to advance and charge which will force you to snake back with a not insignificant amount of the unit. That then creates the issue of gun range, deffguns are only 18" which means that often times the back half of the unit only has one or two viable targets, the units you want to charge, which leaves the predicament of if you want to fire them but then risk making your charge harder.
Secondly, they don't really hit hard at all. I mean they're just a boyz squad we've grossly overpaid for. Sure you can buff them with warpath if there are no other targets (and you're still in range) but even then they do very little. Tossing "run through 'em" on them for that 2d6" consolidation could work every once in a while but at this point you're spending 5CP on an aggressively mediocre unit to try and make them good, this not even counting the fact that they're almost 300 points.
Thirdly, terrain shuts them down, hard. If your opponent steps up into ruins then your bikes are dang near useless. Also, they have big bases (especially if this starts getting enforced by the likes of LVO) and you're often slowed down by terrain and it might be difficult to maneuver around the board.
Compare that to the big shoota deffkoptas who for 7 more points get:
- Keyword <fly>, making them ignore terrain, able to jump up in ruins, fall back and shoot etc
- Auto 6" advance
- Built in deepstrike
- Double the amount of wounds
- Double the range on their guns
- Same amount of attacks per point as warbikers but S5 instead of S4
- Cheaper MSU
I love warbikers, I play pure speed freeks and I own a ton of the models. But they aren't good and even if I were inclined to spend CP to make them better they still don't move past the "somewhat usable" territory for me. Warbikers should've been lowered to 19ppm in CA2019 and unless they get some love with PA6 they'll stay on my shelf for anything but fun games from here on in I think.
Hey guys, I just got to reading about the blitz brigade. And considering the pricedrop for FG, it might be interesting.
If you add a character, my guess here would be baddrukk. Give him the relic Blitz Shouta, and now your flashgitz will be able to reroll 1's to hit because the battlewagon itself is affected by the aura. Sure it's just 1 unit. But still that's a lot of damage. And if the BW explodes, you still have that reroll 1 because of badrukk.
Am I missing something here? What do you guys think?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Make them freebootas, and you have 4+shooting gitz, 3+ when triggerd. Rerolling 1s and the rerolls from your ammo runts. That will hurt
Gruxz wrote: Hey guys, I just got to reading about the blitz brigade. And considering the pricedrop for FG, it might be interesting.
If you add a character, my guess here would be baddrukk. Give him the relic Blitz Shouta, and now your flashgitz will be able to reroll 1's to hit because the battlewagon itself is affected by the aura. Sure it's just 1 unit. But still that's a lot of damage. And if the BW explodes, you still have that reroll 1 because of badrukk.
Am I missing something here? What do you guys think?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Make them freebootas, and you have 4+shooting gitz, 3+ when triggerd. Rerolling 1s and the rerolls from your ammo runts. That will hurt
You’re not able to give Badrukk a relic as he is a unique character and those are considered to have their own relics already. You also wouldn’t impart the re-rolls to the occupants of the Battlewagon as re-rolls don’t fit the definition of ‘restrictions or modifiers’. Regardless, if you’re taking a Blitz Brigade detachment then Flash Gitz aren’t bad occupants for one of your wagons anyway. Though I would say that detachment is probably best as Evil Sunz and Flash Gitz are definitely better off in Freebooterz transports so they are able to make use of the trait while embarked.
Why wouldn't the Flashgitz get the reroll? The faq says no to the heavy shooting ability, it says no to re-using strategems on the transport.
That's what I can find on the subject. So why would the rerolls be different from say the freeboota modifier? Or what am I missing? It's not a strategem, nor an ability, that leaves the other 2.
Gruxz wrote: Why wouldn't the Flashgitz get the reroll? The faq says no to the heavy shooting ability, it says no to re-using strategems on the transport.
That's what I can find on the subject. So why would the rerolls be different from say the freeboota modifier? Or what am I missing? It's not a strategem, nor an ability, that leaves the other 2.
Gruxz wrote: Why wouldn't the Flashgitz get the reroll? The faq says no to the heavy shooting ability, it says no to re-using strategems on the transport.
That's what I can find on the subject. So why would the rerolls be different from say the freeboota modifier? Or what am I missing? It's not a strategem, nor an ability, that leaves the other 2.
Modifiers are +X or -X. Not rerolls.
Hmm I guess, you're right. Well that's a damn shame.
I love warbikers, I play pure speed freeks and I own a ton of the models. But they aren't good and even if I were inclined to spend CP to make them better they still don't move past the "somewhat usable" territory for me. Warbikers should've been lowered to 19ppm in CA2019 and unless they get some love with PA6 they'll stay on my shelf for anything but fun games from here on in I think.
I did say they were overpriced and should go down by 3 PPM. This is often the case with a lot of Ork units -- cusp of greatness but just not costed aggressively enough.
I don't think Deff Koptas are interchangeable with warbikers in the way you subscribe, though. It takes a lot more resources to shift 12 warbikers over even 5 Deff Koptas (of course, there are major point difference, but you can't even take more than 5 in a squad...). If you are just literally using Deff Koptas to tag tanks, they are great. Warbikers are meant to be as a Boy substitute in a mechanized list (IE, they try to get stuck in and require a bigger response). Deff Koptas are more about trying to contest objectives and tag stray vehicles and weak CC units and really *not* trying to be a Boy substitute.
The advance range is awkward to use but doable. And Deff Koptas have the exact same issue (and in fact, have even less models to string back), require a Wartrike (which is hot garbage), and have no AP in their attacks and don't have enough models to really sustain any sort of counter punch.
T1nk4bell wrote: Deff koptaz are by far better in meele than bikers.
The prob here is 5man Max
The Nob with the bikers helps a bit as well, allowing it to be more of a threat to different units a Deff Kopta will bounce off of for sure (Kill Saws or Big Choppas can do some work).
But yes. Because it's a 5 man max squad, you can't really use Deff Koptas the same way as you would bikers. Not to say Deff Koptas aren't good, just it's not exactly a straight comparison. I also find it depressing a single Kopta loss means they can fail morale and start losing models.
Deffkoptas have Mob Rule, while it doesnt help them directly remember its an aura as well as an in-unit effect.
Long as theyre near any ork infantry that still have decent numbers their LD is not a problem.
Vineheart01 wrote: Deffkoptas have Mob Rule, while it doesnt help them directly remember its an aura as well as an in-unit effect.
Long as theyre near any ork infantry that still have decent numbers their LD is not a problem.
Sure. But then you aren’t really using them the same way. You could have koptas as mobile shooting support with your boys, but that’s not really how you’d use bikers.
If they are charging up turn 1, there’s probably not going to be a blob in range.
T1nk4bell wrote: Deff koptaz are by far better in meele than bikers.
The prob here is 5man Max
You don't use warbikers to kill things, they are a disruption unit like boyz. You tie up shooting units and restrict movement, so you can build your VP lead. With the second stratagem, it's also extremely easy to arrest units with them, and 2W/5+/4+ is difficult to shift for units not dedicated to close combat.
Due to the large footprint of a unit of 12, I've never had the issue of the warboss not catching up.
Don't get me wrong, 276 points and 5CP compare badly to tellyporting boyz for 210 points and 2 CP, but they kind of do ok at their job.
Biker Nobz do worse because you only get 8 models for the same costs, and number of models is pretty important to arrest things and pull off multi-charges. In general they suffer from having bad melee weapons, like all nob variants.
Big shoota koptas are better on paper, but in general the number of big shootas you want to bring is zero, so I see no reason to buy them a 20 point platform. I'll be giving rokkit koptas another go this weekend though, I'll tell you how that went.
As you could go deathskull deffkoptas, I've been thinking in playing them splitted and with the rockets, so you're rolling 2 dices with 1 reroll in hits with S8 -2 3D, a bunch of koptas can wreck a tank/dread fairly easy
Considering every other biker unit has some form of bonus charge or a "jink"stratagem, yeah warbikers need it.
No idea how salty i was to see White Scars had both + charge and an invul stratagem...
Vineheart01 wrote: Considering every other biker unit has some form of bonus charge or a "jink"stratagem, yeah warbikers need it.
No idea how salty i was to see White Scars had both + charge and an invul stratagem...
I’m not actually sure the jink would do that much. Auto cannon spam would still wreck the bikers. But yeah, marines get all the goodies, cause feth xenos.
At least warpath is common enough to take we can always make them base 4 attacks on turn 1.
Honestly it’s just points I think. 32” move that can charge is just solid. And it’s consistent other than a Vect.
Why it’s worth looking at over boys: it gets around infiltrators and auspex scan.
If they were at the 20 point mark I honestly they’d be in a good spot. I dunno about nob bikers though. I guess if they dropped to 30 as well? It seems like they might need more of something to make them tempting. You can also only get 9 to a squad...
My other problem with bikers Is that with the new bases is hard as hell to tripoint anything, so is hard to survive that one turn that would make a world of difference
I don't think the problem with bikes is -just- points. Obviously if points go down enough anything becomes good but they really should get a buff from either advancing or charging.
If they got billowing exhaust clouds from just advancing (-1 to hit) that'd make them far more interesting. If run through 'em just became an ability (2d6" consolidation) I think we could have a lot of fun with that.
Or, if they got reroll wounds/+1 to wound or AP-1 the turn they charged then at least they might threaten a few more units instead of just tagging stuff. However these buffs should be in addition to point drops but points probably won't go down for a while so best we can hope for is something like this in PA6 IMO.
Just generally speaking I'm also unsure what'll happen to the specialist detachments. They really just came and went with several races were left out of those bonuses and now some strats are redundant/confusing with the new SM codex. It wouldn't surprise me if they just go away with the beginning of 9th edition. If the kult of speed detachment goes away then there'll be very few forgiving traits left for the warbikers (obviously losing da souped up shokka would hurt more on a competitive level though).
That's fair, they probably shouldn't stack but that's easy enough explain. Basically you'd still be able to use the strat on the buggies or deffkoptas or if you didn't advance the bikers.
If they got -1 to hit after advancing then that'd at least not punish you for taking more than one unit, something I assume basically no one does now since there aren't any defensive buffs past one big blob.
I don't know if GW makes any stratagems that have completely different effects under certain conditions so that feels unlikely. Whatever, we've entered pure wishlisting here. My point was simply that unless warbikers drop a huge amount of points (which probably wouldn't happen until CA2020 anyways) our best hope is stat/ability/stratagem improvements from PA6, which really might happen considering some of the buffs previous PAs handed out.
The point is, though, Ork lists have to evolve beyond the current Ork boy / mek gun spam. This might include using units that on paper don't seem to hold up, but provide certain advantages (in the case of bikers, it's the ability to get around Auspex Scan and infiltrators to achieve a reliable turn 1 charge).
This list was highlighted by Goonhammer and got a 9th place finish in a November ITC tournament. He even wrote a blog post break down and how it tried to mitigate the VPs that buggies give off and the general strat.
I honestly think it has potential but I think it loses straight up to IF (although it might do better against IH). I'm not sure we have a list out there that can beat both consistently... or frankly
maybe just IF. Heavy bolter spam that can crack Knights? Yeah, how the hell does a light infantry / vehicle army beat that.
There is no list to handle iron hands atm.
And 8 think the worst way is make other army's as good as iron hands.
They're still at 65% win. They are just to good
T1nk4bell wrote: There is no list to handle iron hands atm.
And 8 think the worst way is make other army's as good as iron hands.
They're still at 65% win. They are just to good
No argument here that they aren't OP.
I do think Mech / Buggy spam might *raise* our win % from the low 30s, though. If we even get low-mid 40's against the likes of IH, I think Orks are more likely to place in tournaments, as that's way closer to a coin flip.
I think it helps against some of the other matchups, too. We can hide characters in vehicles against RG (or have less HQs in general), for example.
I just think its a loser against IF, but I dunno if we have any sort of winner against IF.
Well yes generally it's not a bad choice to max out things that hit hard VS primaris atm.
I play often a deffkulz brigade (1750 games)
With 3 scrapjets and a wazbom it works pretty fine together with ssag mek, smashas and 10 flash gitz in a trukk
40 boys and grots wyrdboys. 2 koptaz
Had a lot of success with things like drffskull scrapjets, wazboms, shokk jump and so on vs Marines.
VS if I won every single game atm.
VS iron hands I lost 7 from 8 games And the win was just the luckiest roll fest ever
First match with tau against IG and SM, won, my SSAG did nothing worth, my boyz grab a lot of point markers.
Second match with Dark Angels, against Emperor Children and white Scard, my SSAG destroy a Dreadnought and a Land Rider first turn, a Demon Prince (his warlord) and a biker (his other warlod, cuz its duo) in turn 2, my boyz do all the charges ans I do everything, my mate Dark Angels go full DS, do nothing, fail charges and get carried, we win.
Third match eith DG againdt double SM, imposible to carry, my SSAG destroy a repulsor in the first 5 minutes of match, my rival gets super salty, still I have not enough power to win, DG is too sloe and he do absolutely nothing whole match.
T1nk4bell wrote: Well yes generally it's not a bad choice to max out things that hit hard VS primaris atm.
I play often a deffkulz brigade (1750 games)
With 3 scrapjets and a wazbom it works pretty fine together with ssag mek, smashas and 10 flash gitz in a trukk
40 boys and grots wyrdboys. 2 koptaz
Had a lot of success with things like drffskull scrapjets, wazboms, shokk jump and so on vs Marines.
VS if I won every single game atm.
VS iron hands I lost 7 from 8 games And the win was just the luckiest roll fest ever
Interesting. You’d think this would be a bad matchup for us with loads of buggies. They didn’t just lay waste to your vehicles?
Dunno, might be best to focus on playing narrative untill they fix Marines, they are so obviously out of proportion that is like playing with an index vs a whole codex.
It is IMPOSSIBLE play vs IH. It might be doable vs the rest of the Astartes. Gunz spam, FG and wazbomb are still good choices. I wonder how do gorka/morkanaut fare vs the rest atm.
Freebooterz disappeared from the meta.
I really hope we can get some more tools in our bag with March PA. Otherwise guys, just enjoy the game some other way
Well I think space Marines are fine, exept fists and hands. Mayb raven guard a bit to good but that's it.
Orks have a hard time at the moment we will see what PA brings.
I havent tested it, but lootas would be great against Primaris and Dreadnauts still correct? I know the mob up nerf hurt, but potentially 45 shots, rerolls, exploding 5's and shooting again has got to be pretty nasty still
ATM it is still a valid option although Astartes Will wipe your grot shield in a turn.
We have being talking about playing Flashgitz in trukk instead, since they are a more valid option with only 7ppm more and no cp investment required.
Keramory wrote: I havent tested it, but lootas would be great against Primaris and Dreadnauts still correct? I know the mob up nerf hurt, but potentially 45 shots, rerolls, exploding 5's and shooting again has got to be pretty nasty still
With stealthy, I'd say no. You are shooting into 2+ or 1+ armour saves and burning all your CP for the pleasure. Just look at the averages against stealthy primaris with an average # of shots, it's depressing.
And then you can't use grot shields on your SSAG, which is far more important to keep alive.
Don't do Lootaz in a Trukk. 1) they have BS5 and Heavy Weapons, so if you Move, you're hitting in 6s only. 2) you just dropped your max unit size by 3, losing yourself an average of 6 shots. 3) you can't use Stratagems on an Embarked unit, meaning no shooting twice, no Moar Dakka, and no Command rerolling the number of shots.
Lootas are totally fine *except* in the marine matchup, where they could be complete deadweights with the right successor trait (IE: Stealthy). Even without stealthy, Flash Gits will achieve what you want better, for less CP.
I would say most other armies would not like to stare down our Loota bomb.
The Mega-kannon is way better than the tellyporta mega-blasta and cheaper, so it's kind of a no brainer to me. Sure you guarantee 3 shots, but you only average 1 shot more, lose 1 foot of range, lose 1 ap, and go down to d3 damage. The toughness thing will rarely matter (the plasma cannon might just outright kill the model without some funky auto kill roll). I'm not sure I'd ever take the supa shootas unless I somehow had some extra points, but they are fine without them.
Nooo I just built 10 Lootas from Xmas gifts lol. Now I have 15 of the buggers. I was strongly looking at the Gitz too because they were such beautiful models. But the ork in me saw the idea of 90 strength 7 shots (shoot twice) and became mesmerized by all the dakka.
Forgive me, I'm bad (very bad) at math hammer. Is the average from Gitz and Lootas a huge difference?
Also I keep seeing the stealthy comment. What does this mean exactly?
Keramory wrote: Nooo I just built 10 Lootas from Xmas gifts lol. Now I have 15 of the buggers. I was strongly looking at the Gitz too because they were such beautiful models. But the ork in me saw the idea of 90 strength 7 shots (shoot twice) and became mesmerized by all the dakka.
Forgive me, I'm bad (very bad) at math hammer. Is the average from Gitz and Lootas a huge difference?
Also I keep seeing the stealthy comment. What does this mean exactly?
Stealthy makes the unit count in cover if they are being shot at from more than 1 foot away, so basically it gives your marine opponent a +1 armour save against your shooting that matters. Since Lootas are only AP-1, they simply don't penetrate enough armour to do much against a unit with a 2+ or 3+ save already.
Lootas are still fine, as you hopefully will face non-marines too. My most common component are the pointy ears (CWE), and Lootas are absolutely amazing in that matchup.
Thank you I really appreciate it. Thats one of their custom traits right? Like the new nids ones?
Good to know about Eldar. I have a buddy who likes to spam them. Sadly I'm also my groups only marine player and I cant play my primaris (Ultramarines) because of how OP they are atm so I've been enjoying being silly with orks and GSC. At least I wont have to worry about facing other marines except some new kids with their new collections. I might bring the lootas against them just so they feel mighty facing off and surviving that artillery lol.
Keramory wrote: Thank you I really appreciate it. Thats one of their custom traits right? Like the new nids ones?
Good to know about Eldar. I have a buddy who likes to spam them. Sadly I'm also my groups only marine player and I cant play my primaris (Ultramarines) because of how OP they are atm so I've been enjoying being silly with orks and GSC. At least I wont have to worry about facing other marines except some new kids with their new collections. I might bring the lootas against them just so they feel mighty facing off and surviving that artillery lol.
No worries. Yeah, they'll be fine. Most of the theorycrafting you hear here is literally just about the marine matchup, because it's just rough for our army.
According to 40k stats, we're operating at a 38% win rate against ALL marines (and we're probably less than that against Iron Hands and a couple others) since October. So most of the energy here is put into how to make that matchup suck less.
Orks have other bad matchups but none so bad as Space Marines, and they make up 25-30% of the meta... it ain't easy being green.
Keramory wrote: Thank you I really appreciate it. Thats one of their custom traits right? Like the new nids ones?
Good to know about Eldar. I have a buddy who likes to spam them. Sadly I'm also my groups only marine player and I cant play my primaris (Ultramarines) because of how OP they are atm so I've been enjoying being silly with orks and GSC. At least I wont have to worry about facing other marines except some new kids with their new collections. I might bring the lootas against them just so they feel mighty facing off and surviving that artillery lol.
I can give you some context with some personal experience. All ITC tournaments.
2019 was the first year I played competitively and went to tournaments. I played 6 months 1-2 a week freebooterz and won 2 RTT (20/25 man one day tournaments) and went 5th to a major.
Than had a bad summer (30th to a big RTT and 20th something to a major) for health problems and change of list (yep, changing list WILLL influence your results under duress more than you think).
Than I won my last RTT in November.
Now.
I met first the Tau player that won the summer RTT and won by clockiing him out.
THAN I met a dude that I smashed in the start of the summer with his BA (something like 40-4). He played RG this time . Same dude, same painted army (a couple of primaris and 2 invictor more) , same skills. I won by like 7 points margin, 32-25 and all because my SSAG went bananas T2 and blasted a unit of intercessor 10 and almlost a unit of 10 assault Marines . So here I am, struggling to survive 3 turns vs the same guy I tabled t2 barely 6 months ago, JUST because he got a codex that require almost no skills to blast you out of the board, IF you are not SM, otherwise yes, you might need to know what are you doing.
On the other side of the board, is us, that need basically everything to be perfect all the time in order to have a chance vs Marines.
The more often I play against supplement marines, the more I think this is an ITC problem. In all my games against marines, I usually have nothing but gretchin left when they end, but all of them are clear wins. Last game I've followed the advice I posted some days ago and focused all my guns on their screen T1 and then overran them during T2-3. By the end of turn 4 I had nothing but 10+10+6 gretchin, a KFF mek and da red gobbo left on the board, but my opponent had no way of catching up on VP.
No it isn't, mayb its a bigger problem because of kill point nonsense and some other things.
But they are by far to strong and to no brainer. ( speaking for ih if and raven guard.
I dont think ive tabled anybody as orks in 8th except a mono-harlies player (why he insists on only running harlies is beyond me). I simply throw enough dice to not care about his invuls and when its only 4++ to deal with its not really a threat.
But i have won tons of times via points, often when i was hiding behind a wall with my last grot unit so they couldnt table me. Slaughtering your opponent is nice but if you get 0 points doing it...who cares...especially if youre NOT preventing your opponent from scoring in the process.
That being said vanilla marines are still ridiculous. When an army has several units that other armies consider insanely good and valuable that the owning army refuses to touch because its "not as good" theres a problem... I havnt seen a single marine player abuse droppods yet. BOTH my armies would KILL for that thing even w/o any stratagems to go with it.
Honestly vs IH I just get raped. Vs RG and the others I have a small margin and is all about screening right and targeting the out of Whirlwind or TFC and eliminators. Than I can have a fair chance.
IH just obliterates us
TFC are the main issue i have. A single, super cheap model can hide out of sight and delete dozens of orks/grots a turn. Cant do anything about it since orks have 0 LoS ignoring weapons and you generally have to beat half the marine army before you can even reach the TFC normally. It always does around 3x its worth in damage. Always. Given marine reroll bs it simply does not whiff once in awhile.
TFCs could go up 30% and I wager marines would still take 2-3. They are so beyond good. Orks pay 170 points for something even remotely similar and it’s probably still decent.
Indirect fire is just way too good. I have legends options in many games I play, and even big gun lobbas seem so insanely good to me I might throw some on the board ( they are now only 26 points ). I’m pretty sure 2-3 lobbas would frustrate a few of my opponents and they aren’t even close to the amazingness that is a TFC.
Hey folks, I don't play orks myself but was curious--does anyone ever use the Gargantuan Squiggoth? 35wounds, 4+ save and all 20 embatked models can fire out of it.
Plus when it charges in a 2+ it deals D6 mortals.
Any other army I'd be drooling at that for sub 500. But I assume there's a reason people don't use it.
Well first of all, he can't ignore heavy and fire.
Second it's a 4+ save he's mostly dead t1 t2
Third the model cost like a whole army It's just not good
For the same points you get 64 wounds battle wagon
Where you can embark 80 people shooting out
For tfc well yes the indirect fire here is the big prob.
The output isn that great at all
Under kff it kills average 5 boys.
But indirect fire mostly you can't do something against and they shoot the whole game that's the problem.
I really had success with deffskullz wazboms against them.
One jet kill 1-2 of them and are 14x points so of he kill two you get you're points easy, and wazboms do well vs other marine things like centurions, aggressors, primaris
How do people feel about a full unit of Nobz with Big Choppas/Choppas vs a full unit of MANz with Claws/Shootas?
Both dropping in and charging. 190 points vs 350 points.
I can see benefits to both sides.
One is vastly cheaper and gets more attacks, also more consistent damage.
The other is much more durable, can shoot (badly), is stronger and can do potentially more damage.
MANZ seem to be held in higher regard but I just hate how vulnerable they are to thunderhammers, you pay all those points for durability but against some weapons they still die like nothing. A full unit of MANZ might be overkill I think since their footprint makes them tougher to tellyporta in
A buffed big choppa nob unit can do a lot of damage but unfortunately they're just bullies since they're rarely able to take a punch back. This makes interruptions/always fight first abilities real hampering against them IMO. And they die to a stiff breeze if they're caught in the open and pelted with ranged attacks.
I think ultimately both units are decent enough, but hampered by overcosted wargear in the case of MANZ or just being unable to stand up to the killiness of 8th edition in the case of nobs
dan2026 wrote: How do people feel about a full unit of Nobz with Big Choppas/Choppas vs a full unit of MANz with Claws/Shootas?
Both dropping in and charging. 190 points vs 350 points.
I can see benefits to both sides.
One is vastly cheaper and gets more attacks, also more consistent damage.
The other is much more durable, can shoot (badly), is stronger and can do potentially more damage.
Consistent against what? I assure you, MANz will wreck Nobz against a Knight.
They are fundamentally different units. MANz can used in a number of different ways, Nobz w/ BC/C are basically just a suicide missile into the enemy.
I think the problem with what your math here is a your not account for the delivery system. If your question was against marines, then you have to get around Auspex scan when they DS -> charge. If they slog, they will die before getting there. If you buy a transport, all of a sudden that point cost doesn't look so cheap (usually this is a battlewagon or bonebreaker, which is costing you 120+ points).
I think they can be good, but you might even take both in a list. They are definitely not substitutes.
I see lists seem to rate the Shokk Attack Gun/Super Shokka quite highly. But I have to wonder just how many shots a Big Mek is actually going to hit with his 5+/6+ if he moves BS.
Well average's can be calculated. And generally you don'' move sag. He's got range and it's just one model and you don't want to pay 2cp to hit on 5+ anyway. And esp with ssag yes if you move you use stratagem. But in general plan has to be deploy(preferably tall tower where only he and grot fits so he canjt be assaulted and has good los) and then shoot all game best target he can see. If you are moving requlary with shooty ork unit with heavy that has enough range to reach targets(and 60" means you would need to be shooting one corner to diagonically opposing corner for range to be issue) then either your deployments are flawed or terrain is so heavy sag migh' not be worth it to begin with. Or you have to accept 2cp tax to shoot
Vineheart01 wrote: TFC are the main issue i have.
A single, super cheap model can hide out of sight and delete dozens of orks/grots a turn. Cant do anything about it since orks have 0 LoS ignoring weapons and you generally have to beat half the marine army before you can even reach the TFC normally.
It always does around 3x its worth in damage. Always. Given marine reroll bs it simply does not whiff once in awhile.
The damn thing and the tech marine usually having a 1+ save doesn't help it either. Even if you manage to line up shots with rokkits or kmb-like weapons, they just bounce of the save.
Last game I just hurled 3 kill-krooza broadsides at them (and it worked!), but I seriously don't recommend doing that. It's simply not reliable enough to sink 9CP there.
Another thing - rokkit koptas in buggy lists worked really well for me, as no one ever seems to give them target priority of a buggy or warbikers. I kept unit of 5 near the warbiker mob and the warbossto mitigate morale, but it didn't really come up. They made their points back by just shooting interceptors, intercessors and infiltrators (that's GW naming at it's finest). Sadly my opponents didn't have any units with FLY, so long uncontrolled bursts never mattered. 4W is a really sweet spot to be, as neither d6 nor flat 3 damage can kill them without wasting damage. They also defended an objective for two entire game turns, if I had CP left (wasted them on broadsides), I might have been able to keep them alive longer with exhaust clouds. It's also worth noting that besides warbikers, there isn't really a good target for moar dakka in a buggy list, so I might keep experimenting with the 5 kopta units.
Vineheart01 wrote: TFC are the main issue i have.
A single, super cheap model can hide out of sight and delete dozens of orks/grots a turn. Cant do anything about it since orks have 0 LoS ignoring weapons and you generally have to beat half the marine army before you can even reach the TFC normally.
It always does around 3x its worth in damage. Always. Given marine reroll bs it simply does not whiff once in awhile.
The damn thing and the tech marine usually having a 1+ save doesn't help it either. Even if you manage to line up shots with rokkits or kmb-like weapons, they just bounce of the save.
Last game I just hurled 3 kill-krooza broadsides at them (and it worked!), but I seriously don't recommend doing that. It's simply not reliable enough to sink 9CP there.
Another thing - rokkit koptas in buggy lists worked really well for me, as no one ever seems to give them target priority of a buggy or warbikers. I kept unit of 5 near the warbiker mob and the warbossto mitigate morale, but it didn't really come up. They made their points back by just shooting interceptors, intercessors and infiltrators (that's GW naming at it's finest). Sadly my opponents didn't have any units with FLY, so long uncontrolled bursts never mattered. 4W is a really sweet spot to be, as neither d6 nor flat 3 damage can kill them without wasting damage. They also defended an objective for two entire game turns, if I had CP left (wasted them on broadsides), I might have been able to keep them alive longer with exhaust clouds. It's also worth noting that besides warbikers, there isn't really a good target for moar dakka in a buggy list, so I might keep experimenting with the 5 kopta units.
Once again, an aspect of koptas I hadn't realised - long uncontrolled bursts. I really need to be more meticulous in my reading of the 'dex!
Had another game vs my ultramarine friend over Christmas, 1500pts. I had 7 deff dreads and 5 kans, he had 2 repulsor tanks and a reasonable amount of infantry. I won by tabling.
Lessons learnt/confirmed:
1: Deathskulls deff-dreads with 2 KMB, when fielded in multiples, will rip through almost anything shy of a horde. They were consistently chipping away at infantry once the tanks were gone, and with the reroll damage, they almost always killed primaris with every hit.
2: Using ramming speed to kill their captain/chapter master/ reroll aura dude before everything else charges using the D3 mortal wounds (if they have 1-2 wounds left) would have saved a lot of hurt on a deff dread, rerolls on overwatch from umpteen lascannons, grenades, stubbers etc on a single repulsor nearly killed it outright.
3: Tellyporting 3 dreads with twin KMB is great. nearly killed a chapter master with shooting, then got the charge thanks to 'ere we go on all 3 (and ramming speed on one).
4: Meka-dreads are a bullet magnet! it soaked up the turn 1 firepower with 2 wounds to spare, but sadly never made it to combat.
5: Single smasha guns are actually better at dealing with heavy infantry than tanks - if you have other things to deal with tanks (like, say, 7 deff dreads and 14 KMB, 2 SAG (one souped-up) and 2 kans with rokkits). It deleted 3 aggressors in one shot (firing 2 shots, then converted a dakkax3!). rolling 2D6 vs T agains tT5 or less multi-wound models is nigh on guaranteed, and it does some good damage.
6: SSAG with big-things killer is muchly good at killing tanks. AP-5 ignores everything, and D6 damage just makes it. worst you're wounding on is 5+, even with S2, with a reroll throughout for deffskulls. It does the job really well. just watch out for snipers!
7: KFF is a must with so many vehicles. it saved a few high-damage wounds. keep him behind the dreads, and if they die, he's worthless anyway!
This is the second time I've run a dreadmob vs marines (first was space wolves) and both times it's tabled. It won't hold up vs a good anti-tank list, but it does well for damage redundancy, and it's fun! putting out 14 S8 AP-3 shots, 3D6SAG shots, D3 Smasha shots and 2 rokkits and 6D3 grotzooka shots per turn is a pretty good firebase as well.
some bloke wrote: 2: Using ramming speed to kill their captain/chapter master/ reroll aura dude before everything else charges using the D3 mortal wounds (if they have 1-2 wounds left) would have saved a lot of hurt on a deff dread, rerolls on overwatch from umpteen lascannons, grenades, stubbers etc on a single repulsor nearly killed it outright.
Good point though I find rarely I get chance to cause damage to buffer before generally wiping out nearby stuff anyway or the buffmaster dies in one go.
3: Tellyporting 3 dreads with twin KMB is great. nearly killed a chapter master with shooting, then got the charge thanks to 'ere we go on all 3 (and ramming speed on one).
I find with 3 that the last one often ends up 11-12" range if it is even within 12". Sometimes getting even 2 into charge range for something worthwhile is tricky. Often enough opponent blocks enough 3rd one is outside 12" and so can't charge ramming speed or not. Or it's marines and they have 12" no go areas. I might go for 3rd KMB on the 3rd one to make it more useful even on times it can't charge.
6: SSAG with big-things killer is muchly good at killing tanks. AP-5 ignores everything, and D6 damage just makes it. worst you're wounding on is 5+, even with S2, with a reroll throughout for deffskulls. It does the job really well. just watch out for snipers!
My fav warlord.
7: KFF is a must with so many vehicles. it saved a few high-damage wounds. keep him behind the dreads, and if they die, he's worthless anyway!
Alas marine eliminators can snipe him off. Especially if you can't move him behind terrain blocking terrain which can be tricky if dreads want to move.
Those dangerous characters/units with only a few wound left but are really tough (halves damage/good invuln etc) are also a prime target for the spiked ram buggies. Just keep throwing them in there until one procs and deletes them. It also works well against wulfen since they get to attack after they die in the fight phase but this happens in the charge phase so then they just die (I have greatly annoyed a SW player like that).
Obviously it doesn't come up all that often but it's really nice to have sources of MWs in the charge phase, meaning you might be able to delete a blocking unit and charge what you really want. It's a shame there isn't a more melee focused spiked ram buggy though, the megatrakk is alright assuming elites/AT but some sort of 6 attack hitting on 3s with S6 AP-1 would be fun IMO.
PiñaColada wrote: Those dangerous characters/units with only a few wound left but are really tough (halves damage/good invuln etc) are also a prime target for the spiked ram buggies. Just keep throwing them in there until one procs and deletes them. It also works well against wulfen since they get to attack after they die in the fight phase but this happens in the charge phase so then they just die (I have greatly annoyed a SW player like that).
Obviously it doesn't come up all that often but it's really nice to have sources of MWs in the charge phase, meaning you might be able to delete a blocking unit and charge what you really want. It's a shame there isn't a more melee focused spiked ram buggy though, the megatrakk is alright assuming elites/AT but some sort of 6 attack hitting on 3s with S6 AP-1 would be fun IMO.
+1 on wanting an ork buggy with scythes, saws and all manner of death at the front, but no guns (or maybe a skorcha) for a wicked fast CC vehicle.
I've not struggled to get the 3 dreads in reasonable range, but usually my opponent forms a line and I can get in front of or behind it without too much blockery. I like that 2CP puts 3 horribly survivable units in my opponents face (or up their... ...backfield ). Using it on a single model gives them something to focus on, but 3 dreads/ That takes a lot of the heat off my advancing army!
I am contemplating making a list wit a view to merge 3 dreads and 30 boys in tellyportas, and then 2 mobs of 30 boys hiding to be jumped by a weirdboy. Turn 2 sees dreads appear behind (they fit in a smaller gap) and 60 boys appear in front. EGT could mean another 30 appear on a flank, if there's room. That's a lot of "then suddenly"
Well obviously it also depends on terrain. Here there's generally quite a good amount of terrain(so that if you constantly can draw >36" ranges freely there's something weird going on) and terrain causes easily bottle necks. You might have 9" straight line but as dreadnought can't walk through ruin he has to go curved line. Opponents here use terrain and chaff pretty well to block optimal landing zones for 3 big bases.
Even getting to behind is generally no go against many armies(necrons are one of the easier ones though dreadnoughts aren't best at smashing immortals or wraiths anyway)
dan2026 wrote: In terms of single model units like the various Speed Mob buggies, its the Deathskulls Kultur always better than the Badmoons one?
Due to their low # of overall shots relatively speaking, they all count as MSU, yeah, DS is basically better. Plus they get a 6+ invul save. Megatrakk is probably on the margin if you really want to use it as Bad Moons, given it gets 12 big shoota shots, 2d3 rokkits, plus an additional Wing Missile.
I would consider Evil Suns on the Kustom Boosta Blasta, though. It gives your flamers an effective +3" range if you're willing to drive into your enemy, giving them a max range of 29" with a good advance roll.
dan2026 wrote: In terms of single model units like the various Speed Mob buggies, its the Deathskulls Kultur always better than the Badmoons one?
100% for the Shokkjump Dragsta. The Kustom Shokk Rifle was basically kustom made for the Deffskull kultur with how you basically reroll everything it has profile wise. The Megatrakk Scrapjet is a little more towards Bad Moons due to the higher number of shots it has and that it has static damage so you can't make as much use as the Deffskullz kultur, but given that it applies for CC as well (and it has an actual decent CCW), Deffskullz wins overall. It's also big to note that the 6+ invuln. actually comes in handy given that a lot of the times the buggies will be out of KFF range.
As far as Stormboyz size goes, I feel either 20 or 5 are the ideal numbers. 5 are good for deep striking onto objectives, the 20 are good for having a small enough footprint to hide behind LOS blocking cover while also large enough to sustain potential casualties. Personally, I like combo'ing the larger squads with Zagstruk to deal with any potential morale issues.
As far as Stormboyz size goes, I feel either 20 or 5 are the ideal numbers. 5 are good for deep striking onto objectives, the 20 are good for having a small enough footprint to hide behind LOS blocking cover while also large enough to sustain potential casualties. Personally, I like combo'ing the larger squads with Zagstruk to deal with any potential morale issues.
Shame Zagstrukk is a Goff. I have little to no interest in Goffs, unfortunately. And he can't even help them advance and charge for whatever reason.
Evil Suns just seems to be the best option, as you want to use terrain as much as possible to keep them out of LOS. Having that +2 inch movement (with advance), and +1 charge threat range seems too important. Plus they can be deep struck or Da Jumped and charge depending on the matchup / mission, so that bonus charge might become really clutch.
I have been trying to budget for 20, I was wondering if I could cheat a little. 5 man squads seem interesting, though. 50 points for 4 boyz and a Nob w/ Big choppa, choppa could bully off weedy gak off objectives, they can deepstrike, and it's cheap as chips for the unit if they happen to whiff.
And you can easily take Ghaz without other Goffs to get his benefits anyway.
Our triumvirate of Kulturs is just too good. I am super curious if this will finally be cracked with PA, though. It seems like Nids and Eldar do have some interesting custom builds that people are starting to play around with.
At least you all have a character for your kult. Evil sunz have to look at FW for theirs.
As for stormboyz, I only found value out of objective grabbing. They die far too fast for anything else.
Question. I'm thinking of building/kitbashing a mek with a kustom force-field because they seem so good. It's going to be heavily cyborged out so you could argue its a mek in mega-armor if I needed to... buuut
Are these going to hit legends any time soon? Seems like most that didnt make it to the codex got shelved. Does anyone predict KFF to be next?
tulun wrote: And you can easily take Ghaz without other Goffs to get his benefits anyway.
Our triumvirate of Kulturs is just too good. I am super curious if this will finally be cracked with PA, though. It seems like Nids and Eldar do have some interesting custom builds that people are starting to play around with.
What do you consider the triumvirate?
I'd say Goffs, Sunz, Moons and Skulls are all great in different ways.
tulun wrote: And you can easily take Ghaz without other Goffs to get his benefits anyway.
Our triumvirate of Kulturs is just too good. I am super curious if this will finally be cracked with PA, though. It seems like Nids and Eldar do have some interesting custom builds that people are starting to play around with.
What do you consider the triumvirate?
I'd say Goffs, Sunz, Moons and Skulls are all great in different ways.
Evil Suns, Bad Moons, Deathskulls are the relevant kulturs in our codex. Freebootas get an honourable mention, but you really gotta buy into it (pretty much the whole army).
Given I can only take 3 detachments in proper matched play, Goffs simply don't provide enough benefits to lose out what any of those 3 provide for units I'm interested in. If you really want Ghaz, you can take him easily without really taking much else Goff.
tulun wrote: And you can easily take Ghaz without other Goffs to get his benefits anyway.
Our triumvirate of Kulturs is just too good. I am super curious if this will finally be cracked with PA, though. It seems like Nids and Eldar do have some interesting custom builds that people are starting to play around with.
What do you consider the triumvirate?
I'd say Goffs, Sunz, Moons and Skulls are all great in different ways.
Evil Suns, Bad Moons, Deathskulls are the relevant kulturs in our codex. Freebootas get an honourable mention, but you really gotta buy into it (pretty much the whole army).
Given I can only take 3 detachments in proper matched play, Goffs simply don't provide enough benefits to lose out what any of those 3 provide for units I'm interested in. If you really want Ghaz, you can take him easily without really taking much else Goff.
Fair points.
It is tempting to go mono Freebooters, as I do love the Flash Gitz models.
I find it kinda stupid that they are locked to the Freebooter Kutur when the very fluff in the codex describes "Many Flash Gitz are from the Bad Moons Clan".
Its like the guy who wrote the rules didn't read the fluff...
Easily? I dunno about that. With a Supreme Command Detachment (the cheapest way to take him), you'll be losing out on 4 CP. You could throw him into a Battalion (with a Weirdboy and 30 Grots), but you're still paying 250ish pts for +1 attack on a charge (which we don't really need with Warpath) and a slightly less squishy (but still pretty easy to kill) suicide bomber. Probably just better off taking an Evil Sun Warboss and saving yourself 150 pts, even if they're a bit easier to kill and don't give +1 attack. Especially if your group uses Ro3, cuz a Goff detachment means you lose out on one of those incredibly useful Kulturz.
That said, Goffs ain't that bad. They just can't stack up to the Big 3. That's why I said it's a mediocre Kultur. Still better than Blood Axes or Snakebites though.
flandarz wrote: Easily? I dunno about that. With a Supreme Command Detachment (the cheapest way to take him), you'll be losing out on 4 CP. You could throw him into a Battalion (with a Weirdboy and 30 Grots), but you're still paying 250ish pts for +1 attack on a charge (which we don't really need with Warpath) and a slightly less squishy (but still pretty easy to kill) suicide bomber. Probably just better off taking an Evil Sun Warboss and saving yourself 150 pts, even if they're a bit easier to kill and don't give +1 attack. Especially if your group uses Ro3, cuz a Goff detachment means you lose out on one of those incredibly useful Kulturz.
That said, Goffs ain't that bad. They just can't stack up to the Big 3. That's why I said it's a mediocre Kultur. Still better than Blood Axes or Snakebites though.
If your detachment is mostly a CP battery, you can always go mixed.
Often my lists include a battalion with just HQs and 3 Grots anyway.
Badmoonz: helps accuracy in bulk shooting Deathskullz: Offers 6++ and light help in any attacks, mostly the heavy hitting variety Evil Sunz: Makes slow things fast so they can very reliably reach things Freeboota: Helps shooting OR melee depending on circumstances. Also offers a "use" for Mek Gunz since they can trigger this bonus and reliably do so at that.
Goffs? Helps melee cause more hits with exploding 6s....
The Goff trait isnt bad, with the sheer number of melee attacks we can dish out thats a lot of potential extra hits, but the problem is its buffing what orks do best and not helping them survive longer or get there faster to do it in the first place. And taking a shooty unit in a Goff list is a joke so theres a LOT of units that simply does not work in Goff.
Thats why its kinda crap. Yeah if 10x bigchoppa Goff nobz manage to reach you its going to hurt like hell...guess what even kultureless ones would beat your face in anyway except against targets even the Goff buff doesnt help enough to justify charging (knights or other T8 melee meanies)
That bonus melee damage almost never matters compared to the bonus shooty kultures. Now if the Skarboyz thing was just stapled to the Goff kulture where all Goffs had +1Str and exploding 6s...then it would make a difference as that would push said bigchoppa nobz to S8 which is a big deal.
I can't think of a list that would want Ghaz, but wouldn't be using the Big 3 already. Infantry lists have a need for the bonuses granted by Evil Sunz (for getting your Boyz stuck in more reliably), by Bad Moonz (for those Lootaz and Shoota Boyz), and by Deathskullz (6++ is incredibly useful for our flimsy Boyz, and the rerolls really help out the SAG and SSAG you definitely brought along). I really can't think of an instance where, if building Infantry, I wouldn't want all three of those in my list.
IMO, the dream for PA6 would be (among other things) a buff for going mono-kultur, not making it better than having multiples but enough of a buff so it'd be viable.
Some sort of create you own kultur by picking two different buffs might be nice. At least in theory, but it might end up being a bit naff like the Tyranid ones.
flandarz wrote: I can't think of a list that would want Ghaz, but wouldn't be using the Big 3 already. Infantry lists have a need for the bonuses granted by Evil Sunz (for getting your Boyz stuck in more reliably), by Bad Moonz (for those Lootaz and Shoota Boyz), and by Deathskullz (6++ is incredibly useful for our flimsy Boyz, and the rerolls really help out the SAG and SSAG you definitely brought along). I really can't think of an instance where, if building Infantry, I wouldn't want all three of those in my list.
As much as I like Bad Moons, I think they could be the weak link in a more infantry focused list *if* you don't take tankbustas for anti-tank. The two ideal infantry based units in Bad Moons are Bustas and Lootas. And if you're scared of the marine matchup, Lootas are nerfed to hell. Stealthy screws over Lootas hard. 2+ armour save Primaris laugh off AP-1, and it leaves open the SSAG even more to sniper fire (which is probably far more useful in any marine matchup) because you need grots to keep your lootas alive.
I'd take Shoota boyz as Evil Suns anyway for the move + advance without penalty. It brings up their threat range slogging massively. Plus, you can still easily Da Junp -> Charge (Shoota boyz are fine in combat).
That being said, Ghazzy is probably not in any serious ITC list, so it's moot.
I hope when Ghaz gets his new model they beef up his stats accordingly.
Dude should be a massive meat monster. I hope he gets another wound and point of toughness. Maybe another attack too.
In an ideal world the Ghaz kit should dualed with a Mega Armour Warboss kit.
But I'd say the chances of that are almost zero.
Bad Moonz Shoota Boyz can be one of our best chaff-clearing units. 60 shots, with rerolls on 1s, and Dx3 is gonna be hard for almost any chaff to survive (assuming a unit size of 10, and taking into account Morale losses). Then you double it up to take out another unit or finish off the one you started with. If it's a particularly troublesome chaff unit, Moar Dakka can help as well.
Doesn't really matter because, as Vine mentioned, we don't really need the exploding 6s in CC as much as we need to be able to reliably get those units INTO CC. So I can't much see the appeal of bringing a Goff Detachment over an Evil Sunz one. Even for just a CP battery, you'll probably want Deathskullz just for the 6++ and Obsec on your Weirdboyz. Or (and I can't believe I'm saying this) Blood Axes for a better Save on them (since they'll likely either have Character Protection or be outside 18" the whole game).
The re-roll one thing is a bit more a red herring if you ask me with BS5. We might care enough when the gun we're using is powerful enough (Lootas, Flash Gitz), but on crap guns, it's not all that relevant.
For every 18 shots you get w/ re-roll ones, you should expect 1 extra hit on average (assuming 6 rolls you should expect one roll of 1, and you hit on 5's). Explosions help this a little, but ignoring that for a second, even 60 shots re-rolling ones we should only expect like 3.33 more hits because of it.
Shoot twice is the real deal BM boyz got, but it's probably not worth the CP generally.
And you are giving up making your Shoota boyz a much better bet for Da Jump -> Charge, and losing a bunch of range if they are slogging (I can only move 5" without shooting penalty or using More Dakka, or I can move a minimum of 8 and a max of 13" and still shoot with move + advance with ES).
If shootas were 24", we might have a convo, but I dunno. 18" guns without that move and advance is rough.
Remember what Jid said before: the threat of a charge is more important than actually making it with Boyz. If you're running Slugga Boyz (or even a 20/10 mix) I'd agree with you that Evil Sunz is better. But 30 Shoota Boyz are better off with the slightly less reliable charge (it's still like a 50/50 shot, with 'Ere We Go) and having a better ranged output.
And, yeah, you Da Jump them. T1: Da Jump your Shoota Boyz and let them clear chaff. T2: Da Jump/Tellyport your heavy hitters. In an all-Infantry list, Shoota Boyz are gonna be one of your better options for clearing a screen (second maybe to Flash Gitz and dependent on the match-up). Making them better at clearing screens is important. Even 1 more dead model can be significant when the Morale Phase rolls around.
If you're running Slugga Boyz or a mix, I 100% suggest Evil Sunz, because they clear units in CC. Shoota Boyz clear them at range, and you gotta go Bad Moonz to give them the output they need to do so.
Do you find that your opponents have to worry about Morale? Finding it hard to see a reason why the concept is kept in 40k, as so many factions have ways to mitigate/ignore the phase.
Have seen a Chaos army tricked out fo give their opponent some crippling Ld deductions, with a view to removing the most enemy models in the Morale pahase.
‘Good plan. Didn’t”t work.’
Has anyone done any trials with the different CC weapons on killa kans?
I know that they aren't the best CC by any stretch, but with "Scrag 'em!" and the power drilla weapon (which does a mortal wound on a to wound roll of 6), throwing a unit of 5 of them across the field and charging something which usually shrugs everything off due to an invulnerable save, such as Calgar or an invuln-knight (preferably the former due to overwatch!), they could do a fair amount of damage. Plus the fact that the drilla is pretty good as far as CC weapons go, with AP-4. I find anything AP-4 or better Is generally worth it - I prefer killsaws to powerklaws.
At no extra cost, you have a mortal wound generator. With 5 models, you have 4 attacks each (IIRC Scrag 'Em gives them +1A), so 20 attacks at S6 AP-4 damage 2 and MW's on 6's.
It's only of greater benefit when fighting units with invulnerable saves, I imagine hitting a knight with 5 of these and a couple of scrapjets from the front to tag It with 3D3 MW's (pop ramming speed one one of the vehicles) plus MW's from the kans, plus whatever the kans shooting did. It could well bring one down.
I hypothesised about this with my friend, who informed me that there's aknight who could reasonably not only kill all of them in 1 round of combat, but then throw them all at different targets each time! sounds fun, but perhaps not a winning tactic for me
I find the klaw to be the best weapon and honestly prefer the buzzsaw over the drilla as well since that at least generates another attack. The problem with procingg MW on kanz stems from the fact that they can't hit anything. 20 attacks nets you seven hits, and basically 1MW after all is said and done.
Sure you can improve this by having a waaagh banner nearby and perhaps even warpath but few would argue that's worth it. One of the things I keep yammering on about is grots (or at least Kanz) getting a mini-kultur in PA6. If they got a rule where they get +1 to hit in CC against targets with strength lower than them, and some sort of ranged/movement buff then they'd be a lot more interesting..
some bloke wrote: 7: KFF is a must with so many vehicles. it saved a few high-damage wounds. keep him behind the dreads, and if they die, he's worthless anyway!
100% agree on this. Currently I run a foot mek in my buggy list simply to have that KFF coverage for T1 and T2, but I'll either convert a biker mek or get a Wazbomm instead.
dan2026 wrote: In terms of single model units like the various Speed Mob buggies, its the Deathskulls Kultur always better than the Badmoons one?
100% for the Shokkjump Dragsta. The Kustom Shokk Rifle was basically kustom made for the Deffskull kultur with how you basically reroll everything it has profile wise. The Megatrakk Scrapjet is a little more towards Bad Moons due to the higher number of shots it has and that it has static damage so you can't make as much use as the Deffskullz kultur, but given that it applies for CC as well (and it has an actual decent CCW), Deffskullz wins overall. It's also big to note that the 6+ invuln. actually comes in handy given that a lot of the times the buggies will be out of KFF range
Agree. I've tried evil suns, bad moons, deff skulls and freebootas with my buggies, and deff skulls yielded by far the best results, even on the scrapjet. Keep in mind that it really has 3-7 shots that matter so re-rolling ones is usually not as good as re-rolling a hit and a wound roll - especially if that re-rolled hit roll is the wing missile hitting on 4+ (always shoot that first!). The scrapjet is also the only buggy which really wants to be in combat, so it gets to double-dip from re-rolls in two phases.
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flandarz wrote: Bad Moonz Shoota Boyz can be one of our best chaff-clearing units. 60 shots, with rerolls on 1s, and Dx3 is gonna be hard for almost any chaff to survive (assuming a unit size of 10, and taking into account Morale losses). Then you double it up to take out another unit or finish off the one you started with. If it's a particularly troublesome chaff unit, Moar Dakka can help as well.
Current chaff to beat is primaris and space marine scouts though, shoota boyz don't really work against those.
In general the main reason to pick bad moons is to invest a bunch of points into a unit of tank bustas or lootas and then multiply they output by the bad moons culture, moar dakka and shoot twice, getting shooting worth more than twice the points you invested out of them. You don't even need the exact math to know that a unit costing 225 points putting down shooting worth 600+ points is good.
Keramory wrote: At least you all have a character for your kult. Evil sunz have to look at FW for theirs.
As for stormboyz, I only found value out of objective grabbing. They die far too fast for anything else.
Question. I'm thinking of building/kitbashing a mek with a kustom force-field because they seem so good. It's going to be heavily cyborged out so you could argue its a mek in mega-armor if I needed to... buuut
Are these going to hit legends any time soon? Seems like most that didnt make it to the codex got shelved. Does anyone predict KFF to be next?
Big mek w/kff is in odd place now. It won't go on legends as it got points in CA19 BUT we also don't have official datasheet to match so ATM you can't use it in legends, index isn't usable and there's no datasheet to use the entry in CA19. So ATM you can't use it without totally house ruling it. It's not even level of "my group allows legends so I'm fine" as there's no big mek w/kff on legends and index is replaced(there's no more flow chart either). Now you literally need to house rule things(albeit not huge house rule). However entry in CA19 hints of future datasheet and seeing gw's no model no rule fixation hints also of upcoming model.
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dan2026 wrote: I get fluff wise why Grots wouldn't benefit from Kulturs, but in actual game terms its pretty stupid.
There is no real reason why they shouldn't benefit to be honest.
It would for one lock mek guns to death skulls and neccessiate hefty price increase. DS mek guns would be silly good.
That or at least you need to change so they aren't all individual units.
Yeah, mek guns would be broken beyond belief if they got the deffskullz trait, hence why I'm arguing for a grot mini-kultur. Something that does very little for mek gunz (like buff melee and/or movement a little) but helps our poor killa kanz heaps more.
Allowing a runtherd (with a different grabba sticxk type upgrade) to give Kulture to 1 grot unit within 6 inch would be nice. Would still only effect 1 Mek gun but make units of Kanz better.
Current chaff to beat is primaris and space marine scouts though, shoota boyz don't really work against those.
In general the main reason to pick bad moons is to invest a bunch of points into a unit of tank bustas or lootas and then multiply they output by the bad moons culture, moar dakka and shoot twice, getting shooting worth more than twice the points you invested out of them. You don't even need the exact math to know that a unit costing 225 points putting down shooting worth 600+ points is good.
Yeah, I agree with this. Doubling your output for Lootas and Tankbustas is the only reason take a BM detachment. I often don't care about Bad Moonz if neither of these units is in my list.
I also sort of don't view Shoota Boyz as a non-CC unit. Boyz in general have a good statline for CC, and Shoota Boyz can still have 3 attacks each (the same as stuff like... Stormboyz). They just have the ability to shoot, so are more flexible. For that reason, I don't see why I'd weaken their movement and charge range just to net very few extra shooting hits. If I have the CP to burn on shoot twice on them, I am not worried about the matchup. And I shouldn't rely solely on my Shoota boyz to clear chaff anyway.
Also, as we generally don't take any beyond the minimum # of troops, and there are already complaints that 30 grots can't protect Lootas, I don't think swapping a grot squad to Shoota Boyz makes much sense to me if this is your only BM detachment.
Re KFF Mek: Has anyone legitimately gotten grief for taking this model?
That's a fair point, but it bears mentioning that, even in ITC, Marines only make up about 25% of the meta. Shoota Boyz are significantly better at dealing with Guardsmen, Gaunts, and Shield Drones, where weight of attacks matters more than AP and Damage. So, I included them in with our chaff clearing units that benefit from Bad Moonz accordingly.
Yeah, Shoota Boyz are still great in CC, but I don't think the difference between Bad Moons or Evil Sunz is that great. With some quick head math, you're gonna be taking out roughly the same number of models, once you account for the charge chance.
I also believe the flexibility they provide outweighs the increased charge chance you'd miss out on with Evil Sunz. You could Da Jump them up, shoot one unit, double shoot another, and charge a third. Especially effective if your opponent is hiding things from your Lootas, who are more CP intensive to Jump to firing range, since they need Moar Dakka to hit on 5s after moving.
If you're running Infantry, you're probably bringing at least one unit of Boyz. For the extra flexibility (in regards to using Shoot Twice), you might do well to make them Bad Moonz. If it ain't your thing, I won't force it on ya. Hell, I don't even run Infantry that much, so take my words from an "outside observer" perspective. But I suppose it really depends on what you want from your Boyz. If you just wanna tie up threats, then Evil Sunz is a better choice. If you wanna clear chaff for more potent threats, I believe Bad Moonz does this more efficiently.
The argument wasn't whether or not swapping them made sense, but rather if a Bad Moons Shoota Boyz unit could be suitable anti-chaff. Against anything that ain't Marines, I'd argue that they do the job very well.
Side note: I love the Bad Moonz Relic. I just wish we had a Mega Armor Warboss to put it on. Basically just make a discount Ghaz.
I ain't used the KFF Mek, but I haven't heard anything about people complaining about it.
Yeah, I dig. I think it really comes down to if you want to shoot twice with your infantry, or even the OPTION in a TAC. On Lootas and tankbustas it’s obvious; shoota boys, well maybe. I can see it in the right matchup, sure.
Doubling your output is really why bad moons rock. And they are fine as a weaker substitute to death skulls if you’ve run out of slots for other shooting units.
tneva82 wrote: Big mek w/kff is in odd place now. It won't go on legends as it got points in CA19 BUT we also don't have official datasheet to match so ATM you can't use it in legends, index isn't usable and there's no datasheet to use the entry in CA19. So ATM you can't use it without totally house ruling it. It's not even level of "my group allows legends so I'm fine" as there's no big mek w/kff on legends and index is replaced(there's no more flow chart either). Now you literally need to house rule things(albeit not huge house rule). However entry in CA19 hints of future datasheet and seeing gw's no model no rule fixation hints also of upcoming model.
So guys, what’s happening with the Index? I played a game with my brothers last week (it’s always friendly semi-competitive games) and I was running a Biker Boss. My brother said "you can’t use Index options since you have a codex!", but I’ve been using Index since forever! What’s the official position? There’s a Painboy on Warbike in Legends (but with no model) but no Warboss on Warbike (and we have a FW model)? That’s stupid! Even on BattleScribe Zhadsnark is not there anymore, it says "Warboss on Warbike (FW?)" so they aren’t sure either, it looks like!
Warboss on Warbike is FW now, but the strange thing is far as i know they havnt released a dataslate for him yet. Hes just listed in the CA19 under FW for costs.
Its probably safe to assume hes the same as the Index though and probably wont change outside getting Dakkadakkdakka
tneva82 wrote: Big mek w/kff is in odd place now. It won't go on legends as it got points in CA19 BUT we also don't have official datasheet to match so ATM you can't use it in legends, index isn't usable and there's no datasheet to use the entry in CA19. So ATM you can't use it without totally house ruling it. It's not even level of "my group allows legends so I'm fine" as there's no big mek w/kff on legends and index is replaced(there's no more flow chart either). Now you literally need to house rule things(albeit not huge house rule). However entry in CA19 hints of future datasheet and seeing gw's no model no rule fixation hints also of upcoming model.
So guys, what’s happening with the Index? I played a game with my brothers last week (it’s always friendly semi-competitive games) and I was running a Biker Boss. My brother said "you can’t use Index options since you have a codex!", but I’ve been using Index since forever! What’s the official position? There’s a Painboy on Warbike in Legends (but with no model) but no Warboss on Warbike (and we have a FW model)? That’s stupid! Even on BattleScribe Zhadsnark is not there anymore, it says "Warboss on Warbike (FW?)" so they aren’t sure either, it looks like!
So are you guys using Index?
Index is gone for good short of house rule. It's not even supported by GW with replacement being Legends.
For biker boss it's actually the other oddity. Points are in CA19 meaning it's not legends which is GOOD as not everybody allows legends but everybody allows what is in CA19 points. Issue is same as KFF mek...No datasheet and ergo short of house ruling you have no legal datasheet to use...yet. Of course unless the point cost entries were mistake it hints at upcoming new datasheets and/or model.
GW really dropped ball on those 2 entries. Putting point cost without datasheet is just stupid.
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PiñaColada wrote: Yeah, mek guns would be broken beyond belief if they got the deffskullz trait, hence why I'm arguing for a grot mini-kultur. Something that does very little for mek gunz (like buff melee and/or movement a little) but helps our poor killa kanz heaps more.
That one would be no issue provided it also doesn't help basic grot squad enough that points go up by 1.
PiñaColada wrote: Yeah, mek guns would be broken beyond belief if they got the deffskullz trait, hence why I'm arguing for a grot mini-kultur. Something that does very little for mek gunz (like buff melee and/or movement a little) but helps our poor killa kanz heaps more.
That one would be no issue provided it also doesn't help basic grot squad enough that points go up by 1.
Yeah, of course. That'd be the point. That's why I suggested something in line with grot units getting +1 to hit in CC if the Strength of the attacking weapon exceeds the Toughness of the target (to symbolise they still very much are cowards and bullies). That'd never proc on any other grot units so no need to change points values because of that. Throw in some small movement buff, like +1" movement if a grot unit is within 6" of an Ork HQ at the start of the movement phase (because they're suck-ups and want to appease their idols/tyrants). That'd still buff normal grots and mek guns slightly but nowhere near enough to justify price hikes IMO.
Just something like that and a killa kan strat (that they're actually allowed to use) would go a long way.
I think a simpler fix would be that units like Killa Kans lose the gretchin keyword or get a new keyword (if necessary for rule purposes), so they could benefit from kulturs without other units being affected.
Killer Kans getting any of the kulturs would not break the unit, nor would it even make them competitive. Mek Gunz would probably have to go up in price if they could get Bad Moonz or Deathskullz, yes.
I mean, sure that'd work but it feels a bit soulless almost. Grots should have some bonuses, and if they had more on their actual datasheets then that'd be fine (such as skrag 'em and surprisingly dangerous in large numbers) but they don't and as such play in a fairly boring manner right now. Don't get me wrong, grots and mek gunz are good but not really fun to play other than the times grots grossly overachieve on damage etc.
There's plenty of personality and fun (and utility) to be had with grot units if they got some more rules. Buffing grots with a mini-kultur could also potentially help grot tanks and grot mega tanks (even though they suck right now but FW points are subject to heavy and sudden changes so one never knows). It could also help potentially new units.
It probably won't happen at all and if they go with your solution Tulun then I'd be a lot happier with that than nothing but I really hope they actually give us something interesting to play around with in PA.
Mek Gunz are the only gretchin unit that doesnt really need the kulture, they unlike the rest seem to have been priced with it in mind.
Grots having no access to other weapons means their BS4+ is worthless, cant melee for squat, and die the fastest of any unit in the game. Kulture or not it wouldnt really help them much (6++ being the exception). But they are also the Grot Shield and super cheap troop slot so making them "effective" probably isnt wise. Kanz seriously need it. They have this weird spot that i see a lot in 8th where the stats and special rules dont mesh right...its always overpriced or ends up being laughably cheap for its statline. If they had kultures, they'd be fine as is.
FW wise you got Grot Tanks and Grot Megatanks. Both are a friggen JOKE because they lack kultures, though theyre also just flatout overpriced so dunno if kulture is absolutely needed for them.
Vineheart01 wrote: But they are also the Grot Shield and super cheap troop slot so making them "effective" probably isnt wise.
Kanz seriously need it.
Yet the 4 PPM guardsman is an effective troop choice.
I don't think there would be anything wrong with making grots a bit better at 3 ppm. Even making their guns assault 1 instead of pistols would be a welcome buff.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I’ve been trying to conceive of a fun flip off to forewarned / auspex scan list where I infiltrate a crap ton of MSU. I wanted to include a unit of 30 Grots in that mix, as their PL is 3 for the blood axe stratagem.
And 30 shots hitting on 3s w/ more dakka, wounding pointy ears on 4s is actually not bad for 90 points if they can appear up close.
Then I realized they can’t be the target of the stratagem :(
I mean, you could still da jump them but yeah, I feel your pain. The fact that kanz can't be tellyported is a pretty big deal however. If you could just chuck them into your opponents DZ where, granted they wouldn't do much, but are at least tough to kill for their points they might've found their way into way more lists.
In any case, I'm trying out a 3x burna-bomma list tomorrow. It's not going to do well I imagine but I just can't stop painting burna-bommas. Not being too greedy and flying off the board trying to land bombs will be an issue I imagine.
In this case, you’d want them In position first ( and they could forewarned in both your psychic phase and movement).
I was thinking of positioning them first in infiltration so they could actually grot shield other units that show up he’d choose to forewarn on. Doesn’t work with da jump unfortunately
Apparently the new Shadowsun can command any Sept for Tau.
Here's hoping they do the same for Ghaz at the very least. I would use him if i didnt have to dedicate a Goff detachment to him, mostly because i can not because hes awesome.
Kinda wish they would do that for all characters, or at least HQs.
Vineheart01 wrote: Warboss on Warbike is FW now, but the strange thing is far as i know they havnt released a dataslate for him yet. Hes just listed in the CA19 under FW for costs.
Its probably safe to assume hes the same as the Index though and probably wont change outside getting Dakkadakkdakka
Thanks to you and tneva82 for your answers. I guess since it’s friendly games I will still use the BikerBoss with the Index datasheet.
Vineheart01 wrote: Apparently the new Shadowsun can command any Sept for Tau.
Here's hoping they do the same for Ghaz at the very least. I would use him if i didnt have to dedicate a Goff detachment to him, mostly because i can not because hes awesome.
Kinda wish they would do that for all characters, or at least HQs.
Pretty sure Ghazzy already can my dude. His waagh is non-klan. I think is morale one may or may not be though.
You can only take Ghaz with a Goff detachment, as he has the GOFF keyword. His aura may work on anyone, but you still have to fit a Goff Detachment in to field him.
You can take a mixed clan detachment, the units just lose their detachment bonus (IE: Deathskulls aren't lucky, Evil Suns don't get movement bonuses, etc).
Which is worse than just making it Goff. And since no one swaps in a Goff detachment in competitive, I hafta imagine that an unKultured detachment will be even rarer.
It would be an utter joy (although it makes the most sense with ghaz) if the named characters didn't necessarily break detachment rules and were able to be slotted in wherever, and their rules gave bonuses to the unit type, instead of <clan> unit type.
Guarantee you Snikrot or the Goff Stormguy would show up sometimes if they could benefit ES or DS.
He should be literally all the kultures lol.
That is, have a rule called "Da Most Kultured One" or something silly like that to literally give him all Kulture rules.
For a 235pt model that is pure melee and not wicked fast, that sounds fair to me lol. Especially since its unique anyway
It's really dumb that you lose your culture when you assemble the Council of da Waaagh! from previous editions, because Grotznik and Thrakka are both culture locked, when they weren't before.
Not really. Drukhari exclude a fair number of "neutral" units on top of their three splinters, necrons have cannoptek stuff and free agents. Chaos Marines and DG exclude all non-helbrute vehicles and some characters can fit anywhere. Daemons have unalligned models, Tau have alien auxiliaries, GSC only work for infantry and bikers and TS/GK only affect psykers.
So, in general, having your detachment bonus apply to all models is normal unless you are Marines 2.0 or craftworld eldar.
Just had a game vs DE with Ork speed freaks, various buggies, biker boss, bogs in trukks, some bikes, Koptas. What fun, the army is a blast to play. There is a lot of complaining on here but I have to say after playing admech and tau for a year this army is more fun and fairly deadly. There just random which is why I guess they might not always be reliable at tournies. For a fun evening game though orks can’t be beat.
Orks are amazingly fun if you're not playing a hard counter, assuming winning isn't the end all be all priority for you in 40k I don't think there's a more fun army out there, to play or build. It's just a shame how you're forced into very specific and spammy builds if you want to be competitive and even then that's not really going to be enough against the top dogs.
Vineheart01 wrote: He should be literally all the kultures lol.
That is, have a rule called "Da Most Kultured One" or something silly like that to literally give him all Kulture rules.
IG88 wrote: Just had a game vs DE with Ork speed freaks, various buggies, biker boss, bogs in trukks, some bikes, Koptas. What fun, the army is a blast to play. There is a lot of complaining on here but I have to say after playing admech and tau for a year this army is more fun and fairly deadly. There just random which is why I guess they might not always be reliable at tournies. For a fun evening game though orks can’t be beat.
I’m about to roll out a mech list this Saturday. Stoked.
I think most of the concern here is just on the marine matchup in ITC, which is just garbage for Orks. Otherwise our army is fine.
My area is not tournament compliant, in any format. The only guy that did tournaments moved away. As a result i sort of have the opposite problem lol. Good chunk of people here think orks are OP because they dont build proper anti vehicle lists, only the white scars player reliably beats me because that AP1 and +1Damage T3 onward autocounters any ork vehicle so hard a squad of 10 tac marines butchered a full health gorkanaut...that simply should never happen and its happened multiple times.
The amount of flak i hear for Da Jump is laughable, when they have access to droppods or can just deepstrike w/o spending CP for most of their armies. Funny bit is theres 4 ork players around here. Im the only one that has a high win rate, and i do a lot of funky lists that simply should NOT win (ran a deathskullz list where i had 2 Bonebreakers with nobz, one had less nobz to hold characters, and 6 trukkboyz with a rokkit. I tabled my craftworld eldar opponent somehow)
i imagine if i went to tournaments i'd get my teeth kicked in but i avoid tournaments for the reason someone mentioned earlier: you are goaded into a specific list in order to compete. Easily 90% of our codex is utter trash in a hyper-competitive scene, but pretty dang strong in a semi-competitive one. I like my big toyz, and tbh theyre pretty easy to counter if youre smart. Most players outside of a hyper-competitive scene arent that smart.... example being Knights. Lot of players in this area still view knights like they were in 7th, stupid hard to kill for their cost and crazy deadly. When in reality what more than HALF of the 8th rules are tailored to deal with knights right now? As both orks or admech i have 0 issues killing a random knight and dont really see them as a major problem, just one that if you are dumb enough to ignore you're gonna have problems.
It looks like Orks are going to get a fairly big release soon...
Big mek w Kff New ghaz
Plastic kommandos (latest rumor engine has a pretty obvious ork kommando arm)
I’m excited... Hope is the first road to disappointment
gungo wrote: It looks like Orks are going to get a fairly big release soon...
Big mek w Kff New ghaz
Plastic kommandos (latest rumor engine has a pretty obvious ork kommando arm)
I’m excited... Hope is the first road to disappointment
not sure its a kommando arm. i mean it looks orky but the digites lack claws which most modern ork kits include unless the designers are getting away from that. also those binoculars look more like impreium ones
it looks like an Ogryn arm to me, really the only other very muscular model out there that isnt riddled in other obvious details such as demons. The hand details and the very guard-aesthetic binoculars make me not believe its an ork model.
It could be a jacked grot, since a lot of them don't have modeled claws (how I'd love grot snipers) but it screams catachan more than anything to me. Barely no ork models at all lack modeled claws so I really doubt it's an ork unfortunately..
As for the discussion around our competitive viability in different meta environments - it's not really that useful to be honest. Any army can "compete" depending on the meta. A GK player could be the best in his area and win all of his games. That tells us little about the competitive viability of GK as a whole though. The same is true of Orks. Forget different "tiers" or what have you. We either compete or we don't. Currently, at the highest level, it's a struggle.
T1nk4bell wrote: Just wait for March and psychic awakening, we will get at least something, not one army is worst than before awakening
Yeah, legit the make your own Clan might be pretty nuts.
Imagine we could combo like Stealthy + Lucky? All of a sudden our vehicles are sporting 3+ saves (2+ for Deff Dreads, Killa Kans, Morkanauts, 1+ for MANz) in shooting while re-rolling stuff.
Personally I'd rather have an SM style update from PA, meaning we can pay command points and upgrade existing characters to better versions (sort of like the warphead) in conjunction with the type of update BA got, just upgrading their old rules since they aren't that hot anymore. Just add on an extra rule, if we're mono-codex (obviously we are) and mono-clan so our kultur then becomes one tier better, give us some new strats and relics and hopefully some updated datasheets.. Unfortunately, if we're going against SW then most pages will probably be filled with updated datasheets for them.
I dislike the whole craft you own chapter style rules since stuff like +3" range completely changes what a flamer is. If you can fire it after deepstrike then that weapon is a million times better than before and GWs hamfisted approach to curb spammy lists will probably nerf the unit and not that specific rule if the problem becomes to prevalent (like all the CWE stuff that went up due to old ynnari). Personally I'd much rather have our iconic clans be useful than mathematically calculated homebrew clan #26. I guess a compromise could be if you get to choose one buff from a pre-determined list if you're going mono-clan.
I know a mono-clan buff isn't what a lot of hyper competitive people want but there should be some reason to try and keep everything uniform, even if "soup" isn't really unusual for Orks.
Well, yes. I am expecting heartbreak. But it's not what I'm hoping for. Besides, we have a few more updates before it's our turn so we'll have a better read on what to expect when PA 4&5 is out.
The little we know of PA4 seem to indicate that GK get better rules (an army wide buff) if they're mono-codex and TS get better/more options on their characters while DA will probably just get brought up to an SM standard.
didnt pretty much all tyranids get was custom hive fleets and a couple stratagems?
Custom kultures is kinda one the biggest things im after and i hear a lot of others are too.
Custom clans is pretty much guaranteed I think. I don't know why they would suddenly break the Xeno mold they've built.
Honestly, it could be crazy, crazy good. Deathskulls isn't used for their stratagem, they are used strictly for lucky and obsec. If you could combo lucky with another useful trait, you could largely swap them out.
Evil suns, similarly, are used for movement bonuses. If you could combo that with another useful trait for infantry / deep strikers (etc), you could swap them out easily, too.
The only one that's semi locked in is Bad Moons for the shoot twice strat, but who know, maybe you can have a "bad moon successor" which gives them access to said strat.
Yeah i suspect we'll all be Bad Moonz successors unless some of the new stratagems we get happen to be kulture locked and are really good. Showin' Off is like the only kulture-locked stratagem that is ever mentioned. I cant even remember off hand what the Evil Sunz, Snakebites, Deathskullz, or Bloodaxe locked strats even do lol. I only remember Freeboota because i am constantly reminded that "orks have an area bomb strat" - its horrible...costs the exact same as other similar effects but has lower odds to actually work. Few times either i or someone else has used the ork bombardment it has done absolutely no damage lol.
Skar Boyz would be great, if the Goff Kultur was better.
And that's what I'd prefer to see: improvements to our current units and rules that are performing poorly. Don't need Kustom Kulturz if the ones we have are all good. New stuff just means more that can be broken (in either an OP or UP way). Just fix what we already got GW.
Only new thing I'd really like to see would be a "Soupa Doktrinz" rule for going Mono Kultur.
Vineheart01 wrote: Yeah i suspect we'll all be Bad Moonz successors unless some of the new stratagems we get happen to be kulture locked and are really good.
Showin' Off is like the only kulture-locked stratagem that is ever mentioned. I cant even remember off hand what the Evil Sunz, Snakebites, Deathskullz, or Bloodaxe locked strats even do lol. I only remember Freeboota because i am constantly reminded that "orks have an area bomb strat" - its horrible...costs the exact same as other similar effects but has lower odds to actually work. Few times either i or someone else has used the ork bombardment it has done absolutely no damage lol.
Deathskulls is Wreckers (unit can re-roll to wound against vehicles). Actually not bad, but not worth caring about at 2 CP. We already wreck vehicles generally speaking.
Drive-by Krumpin' is Evil Sunz (ES Speed Freek unit can move again and *not* charge at the end of shooting phase) for 1 CP. Very situational.
Blood Axes is the cheap infantry infiltrate (actually not bad, but Blood axes suck butt). I could actually see this as being halfway decent *if* you can combo the blood axe stuff with another buff. 1 CP to infiltrate 5 Nobs w/ Big Choppa + ammo runt actually seems good to me if they could get a charge bonus on top of it.
Snakebites is monster hunter (choose a 10+ wound model, all snakebites get +1 wound for the phase) at 3 CP. Situational and way too expensive.
Our Buggies have SOOO much range already. Even without Evil Sunz, you can usually get to wherever you wanna be without needing to Advance. And, since Flamers auto-hit, even if you DO Advance, you don't have to worry about the penalties.
Most of the time you want to use the rivet gun and just use the flamers/stikkbomb/grotblasta on some unit with weak defense that won't be charging them that happens to be in range. So you aren't exactly driving across the table to get those burnas to do anything.
In my experience re-rolls to hit and to wound on the rivet gun vastly outperform the entire damage of the other weapons. Burnas exhausts are still just S4 AP0, nothing to write home about.
flandarz wrote: Our Buggies have SOOO much range already. Even without Evil Sunz, you can usually get to wherever you wanna be without needing to Advance. And, since Flamers auto-hit, even if you DO Advance, you don't have to worry about the penalties.
I am DS fan for sure for every other buggy, and it's totally good on the KBB.
You do add +3" threat range to your KBB Burnas (Minimum of 24" now, max 29") -- plus you can advance and shoot the rivet gun without penalty. It's potentially the only exception if you care about squeezing more threat out of the flamer, which you might not.
The "threat" is 4d3 S4 hits with no AP though. Anything more durable than gretchin doesn't give a damn.
Don't waste resources on that, especially not a clan trait.
For me the KBB is a flexible disruption unit rather than a dedicated threat for any one type of target. I don't feel the need to increase the effectiveness of its shooting, as I don't expect it to outright kill anything. Evil Sunz bonus gives it better movement range so I can keep it in spots where I have several routes to a few different suitable targets and a good shot of making flamer and charge range, and the rivet kannon can still be peppering stuff in the meantime.
I want ardboys back. i want them back at the 4+ armor. they were never great but for more mobile looting focused mech lists they made sense. I loved running my battlewagon bash list where everybody had a 4+
PiñaColada wrote: I know a mono-clan buff isn't what a lot of hyper competitive people want but there should be some reason to try and keep everything uniform, even if "soup" isn't really unusual for Orks.
Not a remotely competitive player but this would be dreadful. Ork warbands have comprised Orks from multiple clans since forever.
considering its on a 4+ to cause D3 wounds i wouldnt really ever intentionally use that unless the model is at 1W you are charging.
It fails a lot for me. And the buggies arent great at melee so they tend to take damage even if it was just basic troops they charged, unless that 1-2 mortals finished the unit off.
Dont think ive ever seen that spiked ram be important. I wish Trukks had it, i really dont care if they get pummeled in melee lol
It's handy to take out durable targets with low wounds like Vitrix Honor guard, eldar characters or TF cannon tech marines. Outside of that?
Better stay out of charge range if you want to keep that buggy. You really don't want to end up in combat with a couple of marine support characters, they'll murder it.
PiñaColada wrote: I know a mono-clan buff isn't what a lot of hyper competitive people want but there should be some reason to try and keep everything uniform, even if "soup" isn't really unusual for Orks.
Not a remotely competitive player but this would be dreadful. Ork warbands have comprised Orks from multiple clans since forever.
So you don\t think mono forces exists in fluff as well? If they do they deserve to be on even footing game wise(actually they deserve to be even footing anyway. Balance first).
On terms of "since forever" imperial soup has existed in fluff and in game since forever as well. So let's remove limitation of losing super doctrines by ally as well.
It's important to remember that Ork armies (in the fluff) number in the hundreds of thousands (likely in the millions, if we're being real). When you play the Tabletop, you're just representing a small fraction of that number. It wouldn't be unusual for for a few hundred or so Orkz to all be from the same Kultur in this situation.
So while the warband as a whole might be composed of multiple Kulturz, the little piece that your army represents could easily be all of one "type".
Jidmah wrote: IMO, it's a trap on the KBB unless you make sure the target dies, you'll have a shooty unit with next to no melee abilities stuck in combat next turn.
Hey, that evil suns exclusive stratagems comes into play.
You could dive a KBB in, flame em, then drive away 16-21”.
To be fair, that Stratagem can only work on one unit per Shooting Phase, and if you're running KBBs, you're probably bringing a few of them.
I agree with Jid: for KBBs you wanna rely mostly on their big gun, and if you can get some Burna shots off and/or use your Ram, more power to ya. But that shouldn't be your primary means of using them. We got plenty of other (better) anti-infantry options without putting the KBBs right into the enemy's face.
flandarz wrote: To be fair, that Stratagem can only work on one unit per Shooting Phase, and if you're running KBBs, you're probably bringing a few of them.
I agree with Jid: for KBBs you wanna rely mostly on their big gun, and if you can get some Burna shots off and/or use your Ram, more power to ya. But that shouldn't be your primary means of using them. We got plenty of other (better) anti-infantry options without putting the KBBs right into the enemy's face.
I wouldn't say primary use, no. It just becomes more of an option when you can move + advance without penalty (which doesn't hurt your rivet kannon then).
I think I wouldn't go out and say it's bad to make them Deathskulls (in fact, it's probably far more optimal against marines and the like where the Rivet Kannon is gonna carry). This weekend I am facing an Eldar opponent where I think I'd like to threaten squishy pointy ears with my flamers if an opportunity arises. Its far too easy for him to get negative hit modifiers, and he has a lot of expensive, t3 infantry (hello Dark Reapers), where even 8 auto hitting flamers might cause his annoyance / distraction.
I also think they would be great at forcing Rangers off of an objective, where I am normally hitting on 6s from other shooting.
If they were skorchas, or even at -1 AP, I think we'd be having a different convo, of course. I just don't think it's necessarily *bad* to take them as ES and having your buggy be aggressive is necessarily a bad option against the right opponent.
Nah, the rivet cannon blows against marines due to armor saves. It's best at plonking wounds off vehicles, because those have a much harder time gaining cover from terrain. Primaris out of cover a fine targets, but rare.
The thing is when running ES, none of buggies gain much from that. You can't charge after advancing, plus you lose grenade and pistol weapons, and the SJD gets more mortal wounds from both accidentally jumping and not having re-rolls on his gun. Wartrike is fast enough without evil suns if you want to kill it. It did best for me when just hanging out behind the other buggies and shooting its melta at stuff.
In addition, the only buggy that needs that extra movement is the scrapjet since it has short range and lower movement speed than the others - but it also has the nose drill and spiked ram, meaning you actually want to charge with it and then double-dip on the re-rolls.
As for the "threaten expensive T3 infantry" part ... buggies are on the same bases as knights, unless your opponent is completely incompetent, he should have no problem screening you out of charge range of his valuable infantry, which is also out of flamer range. If you flame the screen, that screen will stick to you for the rest of the game - the KBB couldn't fight itself out of a paper bag.
The huge size of those models also makes it hard to use their speed since the first model moved often ends up blocking all others. There is a battle report by me in the corresponding forum where I run ES buggies - it didn't matter for a single one of them.
So bottom line, ES does about a much for buggies as bad moons, blood axes or goff. It does provide some bonus, but none of those can compete with re-rolls and 6++. Making a single 6++ save against a high damage weapon usually means one more buggy alive next turn.
I have tried both evil suns and deff skulls multiple times and In my experience making a buggy list deff skulls is huge jump in power, since you are basically running MSU with big guns, the perfect set-up for deff skulls.
Evil suns is super speedy but you can't make use of that extra speed most of the time. On top of that, you lack killing power to actually remove the things that you need to remove - and for orks killing power is the same as staying power. With deff skulls re-rolls, a KBB can safely be expected to deal 2 damage to a vehicle or kill a 2W model out of cover. Without, it's much less reliable to deal any damage at all.
Have the same feeling and I made the math for scrapjets.
A deffskullz scrapjets has 42% more dmg output than an evil Sun one. And is tougher. A single 6++ can make a big difference.
In meele the scrap jet is about 50% more dmg ouput than an evil Sun one.
It's just output wise 2 deffskull scrapjets are 3 evil Sun ones
As for the "threaten expensive T3 infantry" part ... buggies are on the same bases as knights [...]
While I generally agree with your sentiment in this post the buggies are on 150mm oval while the knights are on 170mm ovals. That sounds like a miniscule difference but is a bit bigger than what it sounds like, so they're not quite that unwieldy.
As an aside, I do rank the burnas a bit higher than people here I guess. I usually use the KBBs to push up the flanks and bully some poor objective holders (meaning basic guardsmen or min squads of brimstones etc) while potshotting more valuable targets with the rivet kannon. If you roll hot (hardi har) with the burnas and help delete a significant portion of the target then pushing in with the spiked ram usually works out okay, but it is a shame it doesn't have the same CC profile as the SJD. All the buggies sans the megatrakk are probably no brainer better as deffskullz but the KBB isn't a bad choice as ES.
As to the strat "drive-by krumpin" it's actually pretty good to quickly push up a squad of deffkoptas to a hard to reach objective so while it isn't a must have or anything I'd personally rate it over "very situational" which seems to be the concensus here.
Honestly with the cost of a KBB having it in melee with a low mobility unit that can't kill them in one round is a bit of a win to be honest. if you can tie up something something that costs more than the KBB itself, while also taking off a handful of wounds here and there you're probably getting some good value. KBB aren't a big killer in a lot of match ups, but their speed, durability, cost and area of influence are all fairly decent.Plonking down 9 on the table may not let you clear the board but it's sure as hell going to irritate the opponent. I'm pushing towards a mechanized freebootaz list and find them wonderful for target saturation, area denial and occasionally doing something fun and silly. Like using the dark eldar incubi character as a speed bump while shunting other units off objectives.
PiñaColada wrote: As to the strat "drive-by krumpin" it's actually pretty good to quickly push up a squad of deffkoptas to a hard to reach objective so while it isn't a must have or anything I'd personally rate it over "very situational" which seems to be the concensus here.
Koptas already advance 20" though, plus I usually run the Kult of Speed specialist detachment for T1 warbiker charges - which allows me to do the same with koptas for just one more CP.
CP is something I haven't solved yet for buggies though. The only things I really need regularly is SSAG (2CP) and move twice stratagem (3CP), all others are very situational. Sometimes I sit on 7 CP until T4, sometimes I just blow them on something like orks is never beaten and then am out of CP when I need them. Currently I'm inclined to go down to 1 battalion+outrider to just bring more vehicles instead of gretchin/HQ tax for CP I can't really use in a meaningful way.
Sure, but evil sunz deffkoptas move 46" with <fly> if they use drive-by krumpin'. That's a significant difference from 20" for a singular CP (23" assuming you were already ES), 20" is fast but T1 only gets you midboard whereas 46" puts them basically whereever, either to actually exploit mistakes or just force your opponent to think about it. I've gotten a few cheeky warlord kills by flying behind my opponents entire screen T2/3/4 and just kopta-rokkited him to death. It also enables a deffkopta unit to jump-shoot-jump basically, which certainly has its uses. Neither of those uses will come up every game but it's a neat trick to have IMO.
I'm shocked to hear an ork player moving to to sub 10CP though, I just find that even in the lists I thought wouldn't be CP-thirsty I still manage to burn through a brigades worth in the first or second round..
While I generally agree with your sentiment in this post the buggies are on 150mm oval while the knights are on 170mm ovals. That sounds like a miniscule difference but is a bit bigger than what it sounds like, so they're not quite that unwieldy.
As an aside, I do rank the burnas a bit higher than people here I guess. I usually use the KBBs to push up the flanks and bully some poor objective holders (meaning basic guardsmen or min squads of brimstones etc) while potshotting more valuable targets with the rivet kannon. If you roll hot (hardi har) with the burnas and help delete a significant portion of the target then pushing in with the spiked ram usually works out okay, but it is a shame it doesn't have the same CC profile as the SJD. All the buggies sans the megatrakk are probably no brainer better as deffskullz but the KBB isn't a bad choice as ES.
As to the strat "drive-by krumpin" it's actually pretty good to quickly push up a squad of deffkoptas to a hard to reach objective so while it isn't a must have or anything I'd personally rate it over "very situational" which seems to be the concensus here.
No, I'm with you, 100%. I think people are undervaluing auto hitting here a bit, and Burnas are plenty fine against t3 models. I think I'll use them to nice effect against some rangers tomorrow, or trying to threaten a hiding farseer / warlock. I have a small detachment which I can make ES (only will affect a weirdboy and some mek guns otherwise), and I'll see if I like it.
You can be aggressive with them with DS as well, I just think I might want that extra threat range against a typically very mobile army.
TBH, if you're only taking the KBB for use with the Rivet Kannon, you probably should just pony up the 20 points for the Megatrakk. It averages 1 less Rokkit attack (one which can hit on a 4+), and also gets 12 big shootas shots (half of which hit on 4s), has +1 wounds, and is a much bigger beast in CC. I'm not sure the rivet kannon alone is worth 80 points if people think the burnas are basically just a waste of time.
The KBB and MSJ have different targets. The former should be targetting infantry, elites, and maybe light vehicles, while the latter is gonna be looking for Heavies to take out.
I don't think the Burnas are useless. I just think they're situational. If I can get close to a chaff unit without putting it in too much risk, I'll use the Burnas. Alternatively, they make a good detergent for infantry charges, since they auto-hit on Overwatch too.
Rokkits can take out elites and light vehicles better than the rivet kannon though? Better strength, higher Damage. And the Big Shootas can target lighter infantry.
Why not drop 20 points for a gun that kills better (other than range), has longer range anti light infantry, is better in CC, has a better wound profile, if the burnas are a big *shrug*?
Seems to be an argument that the vehicle does all that much comparatively, unless you really can't spare 20 points.
Well, the skrapjet has a much smaller effective range on its rokkits compared to the KBB and its rivet kannon. But I agree, if you're basically never planning to use those burnas then I'd much rather take the skrapjet.
I like the KBB because it's fast, cheap and has the ability to annoy/threaten several different targets but in a vacuum probably won't be the focal point of your opponents firepower. With their relatively low profile they're fairly easy to hide out of LoS from at least a significant portion of your opponents firepower whilst still punishing a few targets. Yeah they'll die easily to real AT firepower or hard hitting CC units, so the risk of overextending is always there but there are plenty of objective holders etc that don't appreciate being hit with ~8 s4 shots.
Driving it straight into the enemy is most likely suicide, but considering the main gun is 36" range I often find it pretty easy to put them on straggler duty around the edges of the board.
Rokkits take them out better, but you have less shots. 2d3 vs 7. Even if you include the Wing Missile (which is garbage against Infantry), you're looking at 5 shots vs 7 (on average). The TBS's try to make up for that, but 12 shots hitting on 5s (Scrapjets don't get Grot Gunners) really ain't gonna do much.
flandarz wrote:Rokkits take them out better, but you have less shots. 2d3 vs 7. Even if you include the Wing Missile (which is garbage against Infantry), you're looking at 5 shots vs 7 (on average). The TBS's try to make up for that, but 12 shots hitting on 5s (Scrapjets don't get Grot Gunners) really ain't gonna do much.
And, again, I'm not saying the Burnas are bad.
It's 6 shots with the rivet kannon, unless you're including the dakkadakka, but then that "almost" procs on 2d3+1 shots anyways so really the difference is a bit smaller than you're making it out to be..
An Actual Englishman wrote:The problem with Burnas is that we aren't short on Str 4 -AP hits. It's like doubling down on the stuff we need least.
That's true, but I still wouldn't argue its useless. Auto-hitting s4 shots are still decent against several targets you don't want to shoot with our real dakka and works as a decent charge deterrent. It's like they've strapped 4 burna boyz in the front and that's worth 40 points,ask GW
flandarz wrote: Rokkits take them out better, but you have less shots. 2d3 vs 7. Even if you include the Wing Missile (which is garbage against Infantry), you're looking at 5 shots vs 7 (on average). The TBS's try to make up for that, but 12 shots hitting on 5s (Scrapjets don't get Grot Gunners) really ain't gonna do much.
And, again, I'm not saying the Burnas are bad.
Just to compare.
Scrapjet VS a primaris =
0,77 dmg from 4+ big shoota
0,51 dmg from 5+ big shoota.
Dakka include no deffskullz reroll include
= 1,28 dmg overall with big shoota.
+ 3,44 from rocket kannon ( deffskullz and dakka include)
+ 0,25 from wing missile.
Kbb rivet kannon
With dakka include = 2,07 dmg 2,5with deffskullz and dakka include.
That means in average the rivet cannon does just twice the dmg average than the big shootas from scrapjet.
And vs t7 and 8 the rockets will get far better.
A scrapjet nearly double the dmg ouput from kbb.
It's like 3 scrapjets are 5 kbbs dmg wise.
And scrapjets are far better in meele.
Against t4 Amor 3.
Against Vehikel 3 scrapjets are about 6 kbbs
PiñaColada wrote: Sure, but evil sunz deffkoptas move 46" with <fly> if they use drive-by krumpin'. That's a significant difference from 20" for a singular CP (23" assuming you were already ES), 20" is fast but T1 only gets you midboard whereas 46" puts them basically whereever, either to actually exploit mistakes or just force your opponent to think about it.
I was referring to the turbo-boostas stratagem which allows them to advance 28".
I've gotten a few cheeky warlord kills by flying behind my opponents entire screen T2/3/4 and just kopta-rokkited him to death. It also enables a deffkopta unit to jump-shoot-jump basically, which certainly has its uses. Neither of those uses will come up every game but it's a neat trick to have IMO.
The thing is... deff skull trait always matters every single game, potentially multiple times per turn. In addition, you get a situational stratagem (wreckers) that allows you to take out planes, leviathans, knights and similar annoying vehicles. Heck, you could even put the deff skulls trait on your wartrike and just blast enemy characters in the face with the killa jet and a bunch of boomsticks.
I fail to see a reason to give all that up to what basically boils down to the ability to advance and shoot without penalty. The buggy army does perfectly fine without advancing, all of them have plenty of range and speed to reach pretty much the entire board by T2.
I'm shocked to hear an ork player moving to to sub 10CP though, I just find that even in the lists I thought wouldn't be CP-thirsty I still manage to burn through a brigades worth in the first or second round..
You do? What stratagems are you using? Because I'm constantly flipping through my deck and think "nah" to myself on most of them.
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tulun wrote: No, I'm with you, 100%. I think people are undervaluing auto hitting here a bit, and Burnas are plenty fine against t3 models. I think I'll use them to nice effect against some rangers tomorrow, or trying to threaten a hiding farseer / warlock. I have a small detachment which I can make ES (only will affect a weirdboy and some mek guns otherwise), and I'll see if I like it.
You can be aggressive with them with DS as well, I just think I might want that extra threat range against a typically very mobile army.
What I really don't get is what the real advantage of ES is supposed to be? If you advance, you cannot ram anything and lose the stikkbomb and grot blasta. If you don't advance, we are talking about +1" movement instead re-rolls and a 6++ save.
Even if you are advancing, a deff skulls KBB can do that too, but goes to hitting on 6+ on the rivet cannon but you still get the re-rolls on it. For the one situation in a game where burning a unit is really that important, you could just accept the slightly lower hit rate on the rivet gun.
There hasn't been a single game with death skulls where I thought "I wished I had 1/2" more movement", but every single game with evil suns, I wished for re-rolls to deal more damage.
Evil suns has never allowed be to do something T1 where I couldn't have been without the trait and has never allowed me to do something T2 what I couldn't have done anyways.
Even if you win the game, you lose all your buggies every game. More damage and more durability gives you more time to kill enemy units before you are out of buggies.
TBH, if you're only taking the KBB for use with the Rivet Kannon, you probably should just pony up the 20 points for the Megatrakk. It averages 1 less Rokkit attack (one which can hit on a 4+), and also gets 12 big shootas shots (half of which hit on 4s), has +1 wounds, and is a much bigger beast in CC. I'm not sure the rivet kannon alone is worth 80 points if people think the burnas are basically just a waste of time.
That's apples to oranges. The scrapjet is a completely different unit, it is slower, significantly less range and wants to be in combat - due to that, it simply can't afford to do anything but drive towards the enemy in a straight line. The KBB is for blocking movement, clearing and holding objectives, while still contributing to your game with the rivet gun.
What you are suggesting is kind of like replacing units of boyz with tank bustas. They simply don't have the same job.
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PiñaColada wrote: Well, the skrapjet has a much smaller effective range on its rokkits compared to the KBB and its rivet kannon. But I agree, if you're basically never planning to use those burnas then I'd much rather take the skrapjet.
Sorry, but you two guys are (probably unintentionally) twisting my words here.
I never said I don't plan using those burnas. I said those burnas are not worth dipping into a culture when there is a culture that already massively benefits KBB and the rest of your army. It's very much equivalent to taking goff scrapjets to get extra hits on the nose drill.
Of course I do try to park the KBB next to units to burn/stikkbomb/grotblasta them whenever possible. But I wouldn't give up the extra chance to survive a lascannon hit or take two wounds of a vehicle/kill a primaris to do so.
I like the KBB because it's fast, cheap and has the ability to annoy/threaten several different targets but in a vacuum probably won't be the focal point of your opponents firepower. With their relatively low profile they're fairly easy to hide out of LoS from at least a significant portion of your opponents firepower whilst still punishing a few targets. Yeah they'll die easily to real AT firepower or hard hitting CC units, so the risk of overextending is always there but there are plenty of objective holders etc that don't appreciate being hit with ~8 s4 shots.
Driving it straight into the enemy is most likely suicide, but considering the main gun is 36" range I often find it pretty easy to put them on straggler duty around the edges of the board.
Dr.Duck wrote: Question. Do we have access to a warboss on a bike or not? I’m assuming “legends” isn’t legal in any type of organized game.
It's... complicated.
The Warboss on Warbike is listed in the "Forgeworld" part of CA2019, which is kind of accurate, considering that the only official Warboss on Warbike model is this one: https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-DE/Ork-Warboss-on-Bike So it doesn't need a legend entry and is legal in any event that allows Forgeworld units.
However, the only available Datasheet is in Index: Xenos2, which is out of print and technically was replaced by legends. While there isn't any good reason to not use that datasheet, there isn't actually any defined way to handle this constellation, so talk to your event organizer first and hope for a proper FAQ to clarify this.
Hopefully the CAFAQ contains the datasheet for Big Mek with Kustom Force Field and that they add the datasheet for Warboss on Warbike to the FW Index FAQ.
Dr.Duck wrote: Question. Do we have access to a warboss on a bike or not? I’m assuming “legends” isn’t legal in any type of organized game.
It's... complicated.
The Warboss on Warbike is listed in the "Forgeworld" part of CA2019, which is kind of accurate, considering that the only official Warboss on Warbike model is this one: https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-DE/Ork-Warboss-on-Bike So it doesn't need a legend entry and is legal in any event that allows Forgeworld units.
However, the only available Datasheet is in Index: Xenos2, which is out of print and technically was replaced by legends. While there isn't any good reason to not use that datasheet, there isn't actually any defined way to handle this constellation, so talk to your event organizer first and hope for a proper FAQ to clarify this.
Hopefully the CAFAQ contains the datasheet for Big Mek with Kustom Force Field and that they add the datasheet for Warboss on Warbike to the FW Index FAQ.
isnt the FW biker boss a named character though? Its not like theres an entry in the FW book that says "Warboss on a bike" right?
Tired of pushing boys across the board so trying to put a mechanized list together. THinking:
Dr.Duck wrote: isnt the FW biker boss a named character though? Its not like theres an entry in the FW book that says "Warboss on a bike" right?
It is, but the have been selling him as "Warboss on Warbike" for years now.
In Chapter Approved 2019 (or more accurately, the points book), Warboss on Warbike is listed as a new entry in the forgeworld section, in addition to Zardsnark.
Tired of pushing boys across the board so trying to put a mechanized list together. THinking:
You really don't need two wartrikes, as it really doesn't do much for its points. What you do need, however, is a KFF. Otherwise enemy anti-tank will take a heavy toll on your army if you didn't have the chance to remove some yet., as pretty much every anti-tank weapon punches through the buggies' 4+ save. Morkanaut, Wazbomm and Big Mek on bike all work well with buggies. The foot mek works if you have no other option.
I would also suggest running the warbikes in a kult of speed specialist detachment so you can charge T1 with them, a warboss on warbike with killa klaw is a good support for them.
You also might want to re-arrange the army so you can make the other detachment a dread mob. SSAG is a nice addition to pretty much any ork army, and shooting twice with one of the deff dreads (or a naut) is a great option to have.
The big Mek on bike is indeed legends and most assuredly unusable in most events, tournaments, and probably frowned upon anything except narrative games...
Morkanaut can be expensive plus slow and wazbom can be a bit tricky to use..
The most most common is basic big Mek w kff but there is also the mega armor big Mek w kff and most people forget about the Meka dread w kff which is a decent unit that is fairly survivable the first turn with its 3+/5++/4+++..... toughness 7 and 16 wounds w a decent sized foot print especially if based for Kff...plus it has a nice 4+ shooting platform for its killkannon...
gungo wrote: The big Mek on bike is indeed legends and most assuredly unusable in most events, tournaments, and probably frowned upon anything except narrative games...
Morkanaut can be expensive plus slow and wazbom can be a bit tricky to use..
The most most common is basic big Mek w kff but there is also the mega armor big Mek w kff and most people forget about the Meka dread w kff which is a decent unit that is fairly survivable the first turn with its 3+/5++/4+++..... toughness 7 and 16 wounds w a decent sized foot print especially if based for Kff...plus it has a nice 4+ shooting platform for its killkannon...
Both foot meks are bad for the army, since all of the buggies will drive out of their range T1. In my last game I just sat the KFF mek on an objective because I had nothing else to do for him, while a more mobile unit could have kept up (yay for Death Skulls objective secured on him!).
The Morkanaut is just as fast as a Meka Dread. Not to mention that it doesn't actually have a 4+++ save, so in durability they are about equal (T8 18W on the naut). You pay 275 for the Meka Dread and 310 for the naut, so for the 35 extra points you get the kustom-mega zappa (36" range!), a KMB, two rokkits and four big shootas instead of a single killkannon with +1 to hit. So really, either model is fine.
However, if someone outside of a prized event complains about a big mek on a bike, but is fine with a modeled for advantage meka-dread, you should definitely zog him in the nuts and never play that person ever again.
I know Lootas are not the super stars they once were but I had my first experience with a full unit. Went a little too ork and got a little too invested and excited on Dakka.
Got 45 shots on the first set, re-roll ones, exploding 5 and 6s, then 30 on shooting again.
That's a lot of Str 7 flying over the battlefield. I see why Lootas enjoy themselves.
Also third game with a Morkanaut in a row where the only time damage was done to it was myself. It adds up quick (usually around 3-5 wounds). I know it's nothing special with a t8, 5 invul but I'm just finding that funny.
Played 2000 points vs CWE with my mech / buggy list, new eternal war missions Four Pillars.
Wow, mech is just way more fun than slogging.
I am straight up in love with my Supa Skorcha against Eldar. Netted 2 VPs from just erasing 2 ranger squads off an objective, allowing me to hold more twice.
Wave serpents suck. He rolled hot and his banshee Serpent died on the final thing I had to deal with it in shooting. My SSAG had to choose between that, 10 reapers, and a CHE... I shot twice at the reapers and killed 2 lol. Woof.
It almost went bad from there, but some luck let me turn it around.
CWE is one of my most common opponents, and boy do I agree with Tulun that wave serpents are annoying. They're really durable and after T1/2 are mostly used to movement block and charge things that don't want to be in CC. Shooting them sucks but I will say that nobz/MANZ chew those up nicely if need be... I also hate the hemlock with a burning passion since it basically doesn't degrade so if your shooting ends up being less effective than it should've been then at some point you question if it's worth it to keep pelting that knowing it might not die that turn..
Generally speaking the SSAG is great against CWE, since you can just more dakka him and then shoot twice, it's CP intensive but usually really effective. Traktor kannons do good work (so do smasha guns, considering their points), the wazbom blastajet with "long, uncontrolled bursts" is great. Dakkajets aren't great AT, so while they're great against eldar footsloggers they won't do the job you want here.. A morkanaut with "more dakka" is also pretty reliable AT, even against flyers..
It sort of depends what the rest of your army is I guess, wave serpents can be killed in CC so they should be a lower priority with your shooting unless one of them needs to die for whatever reason (like it's blocking you or holding an objective). The hemlock is anti-elite/AT so it might be overkill on a lot of your stuff due to super high strength but low amount of shots. Are the razorwings the biggest threat to you?
And a SSAG without more dakka is still a big threat, with a very orky variance in effectiveness. Just the amount of shots with smasha guns that can still hit and traktor kannons should help you down flyers regardless of modifiers and I can't recommend the Wazbom with long, uncontrolled bursts enough. That thing will hit like a truck
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Jidmah wrote: I was referring to the turbo-boostas stratagem which allows them to advance 28". [...]
You do? What stratagems are you using? Because I'm constantly flipping through my deck and think "nah" to myself on most of them.
The turbo-boostas strat is effectively 3CP though and as I've alluded to earlier I'm not completely sold on it since I think warbikers are too expensive tat I want to buff them (YMMV). I'm just saying that if you're playing ES (who are still a really good clan) then using your deffkoptas with that kultur is a pretty decent move IMO, especially since you can make them insanely fast for just 1CP.
Regarding strats and CPs, I'm always finding a use for some combination (if not all) of these every round: Get stuck In, Orkz is never beaten, Long, uncontrolled bursts, More dakka, Rammin' speed, Kustom ammo, Loot It, Billowing exhaust clouds, Warphead..
Rammin' speed is often used to try and delete the last few wounds on something I don't want to fight in CC, get stuck in ladz is either offensively or just to get a "extra move", I like warphead though I know many will just say to get another psyker but I feel like the rest are pretty self explanatory. I think orks have a lot of great strats and lose quite a bit of steam when we run out of CP so I'm just surprised your opinion is so divergent on that..
Jidmah, I think I might play Death Skulls on my Buggies next game after listening to you this long, thanks
Ratius wrote: Any advise for fighting Eldar flyers?
Im facing a list next week with 3 razorwings, a hemlock and 3 wave serpents =/
My shooting elements are 6 smasha guns, 14 lootas, 15 tank bustas, 2 dakkajets (and 4 weirdboys for some smite spamming).
SSAG Big Mek, he is in the special detachment to get the SSAG so remember you can shoot twice with either the kulture bonus for bad moons or the detachment bonus, the big one you don't want him blocking is the exploding 5s strat. But if I were you I would be fielding at least a SSAG and a second big mek with a SAG (preferably 2) so you can just hose down those planes from long distance. I had a similar game against a flying eldar list. My SSAG turn 1 down 2 of his flyers using just his shoot twice detachment bonus and exploding 5s, he had used Vect on my lootas to keep them from shooting twice (Rolled a 6 too, like a jerk ) So turn 1 I cut his airforce off at the knees and even my lootas managed to severely damage another flyer which they then killed turn 2. The game ended top of turn 2 because my army had cleared hte skies for all intents and purposes. You can always back them up with the Traktor Kannons but I personally don't like them that much.
IG88 wrote: Just had a game vs DE with Ork speed freaks, various buggies, biker boss, bogs in trukks, some bikes, Koptas. What fun, the army is a blast to play. There is a lot of complaining on here but I have to say after playing admech and tau for a year this army is more fun and fairly deadly. There just random which is why I guess they might not always be reliable at tournies. For a fun evening game though orks can’t be beat.
I love my Scrapjets and my Wagonz but they are not competitive right now. In friendly games you can make out like a bandit because a lot of players hear the word "Ork" and bring almost nothing but anti-infantry lists to fight you. The problem with "Random" is that its never a good random. I mean that in the traditional way orkz were random. Look at the SAG in 7th edition as an example. 1 really good result (double 6) and a plethora of bad results which can severely limit your damage or a couple which kill your character or your own forces. So 1 good and about 5 bad.
But to get back to the original point, mek lists and speed freak lists are absolutely fun and good in friendly games, go take that into a competitive game or a tournament game and you will be leaving turn 2.
Dendarien wrote: What kind of mech lists are you running Jidmah? Looking to play something that isn't 120+ models.
Currently I'm running deff skulls vehicles, with SJD, scrapjet, 2x KBB, wartrike, warboss on warbike and warbikers as core. I'm still experimenting with the rest, but it's blast to play. I have been trying planes, koptas, trukks and battlewagons so far in addition. I don't have the models, but more buggies might definitely be an option. I'm really unsure how powerful the army is, as it feels like most of my opponents seem to be overwhelmed when playing against it, struggling to handle all the fast units with good shooting and all their tested and proven anti-ork strategies failing. The good: - 2x anti-tank buggies. I'm running both scrap jet and SJD. I feel like the SJD is better due to more AP and damage re-rolls, but until now I played all but one of my games against marines where the scrap jet struggles due to only having AP-2. Scrapjet melee rarely matters as it's the first vehicle to die. - 2x KBB - these guys are basically swiss army knives. Their primary job is to score/deny VP and plonk wounds off light vehicles or double wound infantry. When needed the can charge vehicles to shut them off or characters in hopes of triggering the spiked ram. - 1x 12 warbikers with kult of speed secialist detachment. The large bases deny lots of area and charging T1 puts most enemies in panic mode, otherwise use them just like boyz. If you can tag/arrest more units use the 2d6 consolidate stratagem, but carefully weigh whether you need it - you often don't. They also get around many of the defense mechanisms that work against boyz, and many anti-infantry close combat profiles struggle getting through the T5/4+/2W profile. For me, a killsaw on the nob has always made its points back so far. - Morkanaut. With so many vehicles shooting so many dangerous profiles, it often gets to survive till T3 and the big kustom zappa can do quite some work on enemy vehicles until then. It also provides a KFF, which is all but mandatory in a buggy list. Make sure to shoot the KMB first to minimize mortal wounds taken. If it ever gets into combat, it's awesome at slaughtering primaris. If you are running a SSAG anyways, make sure to put in the same detachment so you can shoot the naut twice. - SSAG, warboss on bike with killaklaw work just as good as in any list. - 5 Koptas work surprisingly well - reserve them to force your opponent to keep his screens against deep strike up, but keep them near your warbikers or warboss to mitigate moral issues. More often than not, people don't give them the time of day as long as any warbikers or buggies remain alive. Shoot vehicles and charge infantry you can expect to wipe out. Use long uncontrolled bursts and more dakka against flying units - Gretchin - hide them, grab objectives. I have won most of my games with nothing but gretchin left, but my enemies usually lack the mobility and firepower to take down 60 gretchin when I'm done with them. The meh: - Battlewagons and bonekrushas work well, but they are too expensive when you add passengers. In addition, melee units don't synergize well with the rest of the buggies. You are better of with just running more buggies/mek guns/planes. - Foot mek. You need the KFF to survive alpha strikes, but once the army starts moving, he gets left in the dust. - Wartrike. You kind of need the aura for your warbiker mob and the killa jets is a pretty awesome weapon to have for deff skulls, but he usually doesn't make back his points. If he weren't filling an HQ slot, I would probably drop him. I tried running it with the fix uppers relic, but repairs don't matter a lot, vehicles are pretty binary alive or dead, even the naut. - Burna bommer. The idea was to have the bommers blow a hole into screens during its movement phase. That actually did work really well, but buggies don't care all that much about charging. Once they have dropped the bombs, they turns into a dakkajet lite, but their shooting doesn't actually provide something the buggy list needs. The ugly: - Boyz are completely wasted here. The army thrives on target saturation, making most S5 and below weapons lacking for targets. Bringing boyz negates that advantage. The only thing worse is a unit of trukk boyz, they are more expensive than a unit of gretchin plus a buggy. - Pain boy on bike has proven multiple times to be a waste of time. Saving a biker or two is not worth spending ~100 points. - Foot characters of any kind force you to buy them a transport with units inside you don't actually want/need. In addition, the buggy army is really light on close combat units, so Thrakka, banner nob or Mad Doc don't really have support when diving into the enemy army. - Boomdakka Snazzwagon. I really gave it a chance, twice even. However, it's just a KBB with worse guns that gets even worse when advancing.
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flandarz wrote: As a bonus for DS Mechanized lists: KFFs are less required as you get an inherent 6++.
Honestly, I disagree with that. Even having a 5++ just for one turn is worth spending 75 points on a mek that goes to sit on an objective and pick his nose afterwards. Any kind of anti-tank tears right trough buggies, every single safe matters.
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PiñaColada wrote: The turbo-boostas strat is effectively 3CP though and as I've alluded to earlier I'm not completely sold on it since I think warbikers are too expensive tat I want to buff them (YMMV).
I'm basically using kult of speed warbikers to prevent my enemy from moving for 1-2 turns. Every time I've done it, it has won me the game so far. Let's see how well that works when my opponents get used to it It also serves to protect the bikers, so I'm saving myself the points for exhaust cloud.
Regarding strats and CPs, I'm always finding a use for some combination (if not all) of these every round: Get stuck In, Orkz is never beaten, Long, uncontrolled bursts, More dakka, Rammin' speed, Kustom ammo, Loot It, Billowing exhaust clouds, Warphead.
Rammin' speed is often used to try and delete the last few wounds on something I don't want to fight in CC, get stuck in ladz is either offensively or just to get a "extra move", I like warphead though I know many will just say to get another psyker but I feel like the rest are pretty self explanatory. I think orks have a lot of great strats and lose quite a bit of steam when we run out of CP so I'm just surprised your opinion is so divergent on that..
Huh, I understand. Thing is, I'm not running any non-gretchin infantry anymore, so most of those stratagems are out. Ramming speed, uncontrolled bursts and kustom ammo are what I'm using regularly, but in some games I simply don't need them, because there is no situation where I need the 3d6 charge or because my opponent doesn't have any fliers that aren't getting shot to pieces anyways. Moar dakka feels wasted on almost everything but a naut, unless I need to advance and shoot somewhere. Lastly, exhaust cloud usually doesn't do enough for buggies, and I aim to have my warbikers in combat until they dies. I also rarely need to re-roll dice for CP due to running deff skulls.
In general, I'm probably too careful with spending my CP, but so far it has worked well for me.
I see that the Meka Dread was mentioned as another sauce for a KFF, but has no one ever used it with a mega charga for a first turn charge? Move double, then charge, even faster if it is Evil Sunz.
I am thinking of puting my mek guns on round bases without additional crew since they are not having any meaning without making the footprint larger. What do you think of this? What base size do you recommend?
Elfric wrote: I see that the Meka Dread was mentioned as another sauce for a KFF, but has no one ever used it with a mega charga for a first turn charge? Move double, then charge, even faster if it is Evil Sunz.
IMO, it's melee stats aren't impressive enough for its cost.
Jidmah wrote:
I'm basically using kult of speed warbikers to prevent my enemy from moving for 1-2 turns. Every time I've done it, it has won me the game so far. Let's see how well that works when my opponents get used to it It also serves to protect the bikers, so I'm saving myself the points for exhaust cloud.
Huh, I understand. Thing is, I'm not running any non-gretchin infantry anymore, so most of those stratagems are out. Ramming speed, uncontrolled bursts and kustom ammo are what I'm using regularly, but in some games I simply don't need them, because there is no situation where I need the 3d6 charge or because my opponent doesn't have any fliers that aren't getting shot to pieces anyways. Moar dakka feels wasted on almost everything but a naut, unless I need to advance and shoot somewhere. Lastly, exhaust cloud usually doesn't do enough for buggies, and I aim to have my warbikers in combat until they dies. I also rarely need to re-roll dice for CP due to running deff skulls.
In general, I'm probably too careful with spending my CP, but so far it has worked well for me.
I'm either facing strong CC armies or armies where most stuff can fly, so the whole tripointing stuff with bikes is a lot less tempting then, but hey if it works then that's great. I also only really ever play grot infantry since I'm mechanised and boyz suck in squads of 10-12. But I do often find myself adding in a squad of nobz or manz since I find it more enjoyable to have a few things that want to be activated in the fight phase as well. At that point both get stuck in ladz and counter offensive strats are quite useful.
In non-torunament games I often just skip the SSAG and take no more than a couple of mek guns. The SSAG is one of those units that you can invest all the CP in the world in and either they're worth it tenfold or they do nothing. Those games where he kills 800 points of stuff feel unfair to both myself and my opponent since it overperformed by a crazy margin meaning my opponent has basically zero chance and I don't even have to play tactically anymore. Or he just burns through CP and does nothing, either way it becomes a bit static from a tactical PoV. He's still worth it, just like the mek guns but I feel like I'm having more fun trying out and using the peripheral stuff in our codex and not the stuff that should in all likelyhood get points adjusted way north..
Nora wrote:I am thinking of puting my mek guns on round bases without additional crew since they are not having any meaning without making the footprint larger. What do you think of this? What base size do you recommend?
I know some people have put them on 80mm rounds, the footprint will be slightly smaller than the actual guns and krew would end up but I think several of the large tournaments allow it.. 100mms would be too big so perhaps 90mm if you could find them and want it to be as close as possible? But GW sells both 80s and 100s, 80s are probably your best bet then.
It's way less of a hassle if you own a lot of mek guns but if you play in tournaments I'd ask around before you start buying bases in bulk..
Nora wrote: I am thinking of puting my mek guns on round bases without additional crew since they are not having any meaning without making the footprint larger. What do you think of this? What base size do you recommend?
Keep in mind that altering base size makes your models illegal for ITC.
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PiñaColada wrote: In non-torunament games I often just skip the SSAG and take no more than a couple of mek guns. The SSAG is one of those units that you can invest all the CP in the world in and either they're worth it tenfold or they do nothing. Those games where he kills 800 points of stuff feel unfair to both myself and my opponent since it overperformed by a crazy margin meaning my opponent has basically zero chance and I don't even have to play tactically anymore. Or he just burns through CP and does nothing, either way it becomes a bit static from a tactical PoV. He's still worth it, just like the mek guns but I feel like I'm having more fun trying out and using the peripheral stuff in our codex and not the stuff that should in all likelyhood get points adjusted way north..
I agree - I prefer using stratagems on the morkanaut, as its output is more reliable, which goes in both directions. Also opponents seem to be more OK with a giant robot blasting half their army than a single meks with a gun powered by lucky dice.
Nora wrote: I am thinking of puting my mek guns on round bases without additional crew since they are not having any meaning without making the footprint larger. What do you think of this? What base size do you recommend?
Casual area you should be fine. On competive play could get called for modeling for advantage as crew models are negative to gun even beyond base size.
Nora wrote: I am thinking of puting my mek guns on round bases without additional crew since they are not having any meaning without making the footprint larger. What do you think of this? What base size do you recommend?
Casual area you should be fine. On competive play could get called for modeling for advantage as crew models are negative to gun even beyond base size.
thanks for reply.
How so negative beyond base size?
Los. Enemy can draw los to crew getting to shoot at it while gun has special rule you can't shoot from crew(like you could without datasheet specifically saying no).
Difference isn't big so won't come up often so generally you should be ok. Lack of models is bigger issue related to foot print but base solves that. But maybe check tournament in advance
generally if youre doing any tournaments i'd avoid putting them on a base.
But i wager if you just used a base thats wide enough for all the crew to stand on and just put the crew on the same base, since nothing ever removes them short of the whole gun blowing up, you probably wouldnt have any complaints.
Yeah, you'd need to put 5-6 krew on the same base as the actual gun. That's also why I kept harping on about 80's,90's and 100mm bases. 90mm are probably just right but I don't know if that size exists, 80mm are a bit too small IIRC and 100mm would be too big. Both could (though more likely the 80mm) be called out for modelling for advantage..
But if it's big enough to put the gun and all krew on you should be fine and very few people would complain about it. Again, check with TOs if you're thinking about using it for tournaments but bases were okay'ed on mek gunz at both adepticon & bay area open (if memory serves) last year but that was before ITC base size charts for 40k
PiñaColada wrote: CWE is one of my most common opponents, and boy do I agree with Tulun that wave serpents are annoying. They're really durable and after T1/2 are mostly used to movement block and charge things that don't want to be in CC. Shooting them sucks but I will say that nobz/MANZ chew those up nicely if need be... I also hate the hemlock with a burning passion since it basically doesn't degrade so if your shooting ends up being less effective than it should've been then at some point you question if it's worth it to keep pelting that knowing it might not die that turn..
Generally speaking the SSAG is great against CWE, since you can just more dakka him and then shoot twice, it's CP intensive but usually really effective. Traktor kannons do good work (so do smasha guns, considering their points), the wazbom blastajet with "long, uncontrolled bursts" is great. Dakkajets aren't great AT, so while they're great against eldar footsloggers they won't do the job you want here.. A morkanaut with "more dakka" is also pretty reliable AT, even against flyers..
I love MANz, but I am not really sure how to use them in this matchup. I was thinking of adding a second Big Trakk w/ Supa skorcha and 6 Big Choppa Nobs for fun.
He can easily keep 2 CP in reserve for when they charge to make them hit their victims on 5s. You'd be shocked how poorly 30 or 40 MANz attacks do when they hit on 5s (especially with Dd3). Da Jump is so much harder to use if they are setting themselves up with Forewarned, so you might be forced to slog them, and they are pretty slow.
Wave Serpents seem pretty darn squishy in CC though, I agree. But if the payload inside is a unit that can basically tag as much as your army as it wants because it can ignore Overwatch, you often have no choice but to shoot it down.
It makes me want to field more Shokk Jump Dragstas, though, in case I need my SAGs on other prime targets. I got it to teleport to his backline where a bunch of Deff Dreads dropped down too, which caused a major disruption.
I gotta say, I loved the SJD, Megatrakk, and KBB in this particular matchup and I think the buggy style list is going to start making a splash.
Dendarien wrote: What kind of mech lists are you running Jidmah? Looking to play something that isn't 120+ models.
Currently I'm running deff skulls vehicles, with SJD, scrapjet, 2x KBB, wartrike, warboss on warbike and warbikers as core. I'm still experimenting with the rest, but it's blast to play. I have been trying planes, koptas, trukks and battlewagons so far in addition. I don't have the models, but more buggies might definitely be an option.
I'm really unsure how powerful the army is, as it feels like most of my opponents seem to be overwhelmed when playing against it, struggling to handle all the fast units with good shooting and all their tested and proven anti-ork strategies failing.
The good:
- 2x anti-tank buggies. I'm running both scrap jet and SJD. I feel like the SJD is better due to more AP and damage re-rolls, but until now I played all but one of my games against marines where the scrap jet struggles due to only having AP-2. Scrapjet melee rarely matters as it's the first vehicle to die.
- 2x KBB - these guys are basically swiss army knives. Their primary job is to score/deny VP and plonk wounds off light vehicles or double wound infantry. When needed the can charge vehicles to shut them off or characters in hopes of triggering the spiked ram.
- 1x 12 warbikers with kult of speed secialist detachment. The large bases deny lots of area and charging T1 puts most enemies in panic mode, otherwise use them just like boyz. If you can tag/arrest more units use the 2d6 consolidate stratagem, but carefully weigh whether you need it - you often don't. They also get around many of the defense mechanisms that work against boyz, and many anti-infantry close combat profiles struggle getting through the T5/4+/2W profile. For me, a killsaw on the nob has always made its points back so far.
- Morkanaut. With so many vehicles shooting so many dangerous profiles, it often gets to survive till T3 and the big kustom zappa can do quite some work on enemy vehicles until then. It also provides a KFF, which is all but mandatory in a buggy list. Make sure to shoot the KMB first to minimize mortal wounds taken. If it ever gets into combat, it's awesome at slaughtering primaris. If you are running a SSAG anyways, make sure to put in the same detachment so you can shoot the naut twice.
- SSAG, warboss on bike with killaklaw work just as good as in any list.
- 5 Koptas work surprisingly well - reserve them to force your opponent to keep his screens against deep strike up, but keep them near your warbikers or warboss to mitigate moral issues. More often than not, people don't give them the time of day as long as any warbikers or buggies remain alive. Shoot vehicles and charge infantry you can expect to wipe out. Use long uncontrolled bursts and more dakka against flying units
- Gretchin - hide them, grab objectives. I have won most of my games with nothing but gretchin left, but my enemies usually lack the mobility and firepower to take down 60 gretchin when I'm done with them.
The meh:
- Battlewagons and bonekrushas work well, but they are too expensive when you add passengers. In addition, melee units don't synergize well with the rest of the buggies. You are better of with just running more buggies/mek guns/planes.
- Foot mek. You need the KFF to survive alpha strikes, but once the army starts moving, he gets left in the dust.
- Wartrike. You kind of need the aura for your warbiker mob and the killa jets is a pretty awesome weapon to have for deff skulls, but he usually doesn't make back his points. If he weren't filling an HQ slot, I would probably drop him. I tried running it with the fix uppers relic, but repairs don't matter a lot, vehicles are pretty binary alive or dead, even the naut.
- Burna bommer. The idea was to have the bommers blow a hole into screens during its movement phase. That actually did work really well, but buggies don't care all that much about charging. Once they have dropped the bombs, they turns into a dakkajet lite, but their shooting doesn't actually provide something the buggy list needs.
The ugly:
- Boyz are completely wasted here. The army thrives on target saturation, making most S5 and below weapons lacking for targets. Bringing boyz negates that advantage. The only thing worse is a unit of trukk boyz, they are more expensive than a unit of gretchin plus a buggy.
- Pain boy on bike has proven multiple times to be a waste of time. Saving a biker or two is not worth spending ~100 points.
- Foot characters of any kind force you to buy them a transport with units inside you don't actually want/need. In addition, the buggy army is really light on close combat units, so Thrakka, banner nob or Mad Doc don't really have support when diving into the enemy army.
- Boomdakka Snazzwagon. I really gave it a chance, twice even. However, it's just a KBB with worse guns that gets even worse when advancing.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
flandarz wrote: As a bonus for DS Mechanized lists: KFFs are less required as you get an inherent 6++.
Honestly, I disagree with that. Even having a 5++ just for one turn is worth spending 75 points on a mek that goes to sit on an objective and pick his nose afterwards. Any kind of anti-tank tears right trough buggies, every single safe matters.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
PiñaColada wrote: The turbo-boostas strat is effectively 3CP though and as I've alluded to earlier I'm not completely sold on it since I think warbikers are too expensive tat I want to buff them (YMMV).
I'm basically using kult of speed warbikers to prevent my enemy from moving for 1-2 turns. Every time I've done it, it has won me the game so far. Let's see how well that works when my opponents get used to it It also serves to protect the bikers, so I'm saving myself the points for exhaust cloud.
Regarding strats and CPs, I'm always finding a use for some combination (if not all) of these every round: Get stuck In, Orkz is never beaten, Long, uncontrolled bursts, More dakka, Rammin' speed, Kustom ammo, Loot It, Billowing exhaust clouds, Warphead.
Rammin' speed is often used to try and delete the last few wounds on something I don't want to fight in CC, get stuck in ladz is either offensively or just to get a "extra move", I like warphead though I know many will just say to get another psyker but I feel like the rest are pretty self explanatory. I think orks have a lot of great strats and lose quite a bit of steam when we run out of CP so I'm just surprised your opinion is so divergent on that..
Huh, I understand. Thing is, I'm not running any non-gretchin infantry anymore, so most of those stratagems are out. Ramming speed, uncontrolled bursts and kustom ammo are what I'm using regularly, but in some games I simply don't need them, because there is no situation where I need the 3d6 charge or because my opponent doesn't have any fliers that aren't getting shot to pieces anyways. Moar dakka feels wasted on almost everything but a naut, unless I need to advance and shoot somewhere. Lastly, exhaust cloud usually doesn't do enough for buggies, and I aim to have my warbikers in combat until they dies. I also rarely need to re-roll dice for CP due to running deff skulls.
In general, I'm probably too careful with spending my CP, but so far it has worked well for me.
Jid how do you achieve a first turn charge? Specialist detachment and advance strat?
@Jid: oh, I'd still include a foot KFF for better T1 protection. I just don't think you need to worry as much about the more mobile KFF options with Deathskullz (or Da Jumping the foot Mek). And, of course, this is dependent on whether or not your opponent is cool with the weird place the KFF Mek is at right now. I dunno if I'd spend like 120 pts on the MA Mek, but the 75 pt version is definitely good to have.
Jidmah wrote: - Boomdakka Snazzwagon. I really gave it a chance, twice even. However, it's just a KBB with worse guns that gets even worse when advancing.
Curse you Jid! I have literally just started painting one!
I suppose I could run it as another Buggy, an extra KBB perhaps?
I like the inherent -1 to hit and 4+ explosion, does it have ANY play? If I just charge it up-field and expect nothing, will I potentially be pleasantly surprised?
Agreed on all of your other points in your long post (that I dare not quote) though I feel that there is a place for Boyz and Warbikes potentially however they no doubt fulfil the same role. We are kind of pigeonholed into taking Weirdboys (for MW output) so I always figure one or two Boyz squads to jump up and scare opponents can be well utilised, the problem is that they eat into points for other stuff and, as you have said, give the opponent a perfect target for their anti-chaff weaponry.
Looking at the Snazzwagon, I'd say the primary use would be to roll up within 3" to a unit, unload everything into it, and then "dare" them to attack you back. The gunz on the Snazzwagon are pretty lackluster, but it's got a decent Grenade and it's not a unit that's easy to take out at range, nor desirable to take out in CC. Unfortunately, it's also very easy to ignore because it's not as threatening as pretty much anything else in your army. And it also puts you at risk if your opponent gets first go, since it explodes easily.
If you just want protection turn 1, why not use a Wazbom? Huge KFF bubble thanks to its wing span. If they shoot it off the board they’ll have wasted a bunch of their anti tank on it instead of your buggies.
It’s definitely more pricy at 161, but if it survives, it’s not deadweight like a big Mek.
That's a fair alternative, but it can be hard to find 161 points in your Mech list, and I'm not sure if it'd be worth taking if the whole point is "improve a 6++ to a 5++". If you already have sufficient anti-armor (and, let's be real, you're gonna have a SSAG, MSJ, and probably some other stuff too), you might not want to include a redundant choice.
Regarding the Mek Gun, I am rather sure I saw on this forum that they increased 2 points in CA19 (in a summary before the book was released), but recently I saw a screenshot of CA19 there they still cost 15. What is correct?
I just never want to take a Big Mek. SAGs, Weirdboys, and my Biker Boss all take priority over the slot, and I am generally pushing toward a 2 bat + outrider/spearhead style right now anyway (5 HQs).
Honestly, unless you're planning to use the Force Field strat, his KFF range is pathetic, and definitely won't do much for your buggies. You don't want them all jammed pack in case they explode.
But yeah, you might be able to scrimp and just not bother with a KFF. Prepared positions gives you a 3+ save turn 1 anyway, which is only worse against ap-3 than the KFF anyway. Otherwise, I think the Wazbom is probably the best bang for your buck. MA Big Mek is terrible, FW Dread is cool but probably not worth it, and Morkanaut is fine but quite expensive (double the Wazbom) so it's taking up a huge chunk of your army.
Nora wrote: Regarding the Mek Gun, I am rather sure I saw on this forum that they increased 2 points in CA19 (in a summary before the book was released), but recently I saw a screenshot of CA19 there they still cost 15. What is correct?
I believe it was the Smasha that went up 2, not the Mek Guns themselves.
Nora wrote: Regarding the Mek Gun, I am rather sure I saw on this forum that they increased 2 points in CA19 (in a summary before the book was released), but recently I saw a screenshot of CA19 there they still cost 15. What is correct?
I believe it was the Smasha that went up 2, not the Mek Guns themselves.
Emicrania wrote: Jid how do you achieve a first turn charge? Specialist detachment and advance strat?
Exactly, for 2 CP you advance 28" and then charge. In my games, sending the wartrike with nitro grot after them works better than the warboss, just make sure to get it out of there T2 so it doesn't get splatted when the bikers die.
Jidmah wrote: - Boomdakka Snazzwagon. I really gave it a chance, twice even. However, it's just a KBB with worse guns that gets even worse when advancing.
Curse you Jid! I have literally just started painting one!
I suppose I could run it as another Buggy, an extra KBB perhaps?
I just run mine as KBB - they have really similar guns and the molotov cocktails just become burna exhausts.
I like the inherent -1 to hit and 4+ explosion, does it have ANY play? If I just charge it up-field and expect nothing, will I potentially be pleasantly surprised?
KBB are usually the last buggies to go, as SJD and scrapjets just telegraph much more threat, so it doesn't act as an extra deterrent anyways.
In general a snazzwagon just stays alive until the enemy runs out of other things to shoot, because it doesn't threaten anything.
The advantage of a 4+ explosion gets neutralized by random explosion range, 1-2" explosions are basically the same as not exploding. On the other hand, buggies tend to clump up, so explosions backfire easily.
We are kind of pigeonholed into taking Weirdboys (for MW output)
I'm still experimenting whether I can substitute weirdboyz with ramming speed and spiked rams - weird boyz have the same problem as other foot characters of getting left behind in the dust, opening it up for easy assassination from some fast shooting unit. Next game, I'll just try casting da jump on himself and see how that goes.
so I always figure one or two Boyz squads to jump up and scare opponents can be well utilised
In my experience, warbikers, wartrike, koptas and warboss racing towards them already scares the gak out of people, especially when you follow up with a pretty impressive shooting phase for ork standards. Getting two buggies and 10 gretchin is always better than getting 30 boyz.
Spiked ram spam has some play in regards to MW output. It obviously depends on the amount of MWs you need to cause but having 2/3/4 buggies charging in to cause MWs can really help delete dangerous stuff you don't want fighting you back. This is also where rammin' speed might help if you realise the MWs from the rams might not do the trick. Just last game I killed Belakor like that (someone orks really don't want to fight in CC). Stuff like wulfen, assuming you couldn't kill them in the shooting phase, are also prime targets since they get to fight after they die in the fight phase and this happens in the charge phase.
With bad rolls you can end up screwing yourself over with the spiked rams, so there is risk involved. Other than the skrapjet, none of them really want to be in CC so you might end up putting them in a suicide position/losing their shooting next turn.
And yes, AAE, while the boomdakka snazzwagon is an amazing model it has very few redeeming features in comparison to the KBB. Try it out, but running it as a KBB has never been an issue for me..
Cheers Jid, Pina. It's just depressing when you spend hours on a model, painting bits no-one but me will ever see, then hear it has no play Ah well, I'll give it a run and see if I can't force explosions out of people (throw it into melee or park it on an objective or something).
Worst comes to worst it's a second KBB. Not that I'm particularly impressed with that model. I've had many a round of doing 0 damage with its rivet gun. Though admittedly I run it as ES because I enjoy the +3" movement (with advance) to get anywhere I want to go.
I mean, you could probably try using it to hold objectives since it's offensively weak but defensively fairly strong for its points. The problem I have with it is that the mek speshul should either by 12 shots or S6 since right now it's really not worth getting 3 extra shots at much worse stats in comparison to the KBB.
I literally think the burna bottles have never done anything for me and the stack up horribly against the burna exhausts IMO, even if they do ignore cover. I really don't think it's a terrible buggy but I just struggle to see what upside it has when the KBB exists. -1 to hit is great but the buggy is just so non-threatening that it'll never be shot at unless it's the only viable option..
That or have a proper machine-gun like the advertisement bragged about
"Any Ork boss can tell you that one of the most important tasks to perform early in battle is the removal of chaff units – those units deployed to distract from and shield the opponent’s tactically significant targets. If you can’t do this fast enough, then you’ll find your army quickly crumbling away until you have nothing sufficiently killy left with which to destroy your opponent’s big stuff. "
Nothing with that low a RoF, hitting on 5s is going to clear chaff. If we were marines and basically auto-hit, sure 9 AP2 shots will put some hurt on things...were orks its more like 2-4 hits at best.
It trades too much offensive power compared to the KBB for that -1 to hit. Who cares about it when it isnt really a threat in the first place? Ive tried to use it and its always ignored, but unlike Killakanz it doesnt have much of a potential to shred things if theyre dumb enough to ignore it. Yeah the -1 makes people decide to not fire at it even if its in optimal range i'll admit, but its more "why would i fire at a subpar unit with -1 which i can hit with 90% of my shots against something thats actually a threat w/o the -1?"
It and the squigbuggy need a redesign. I think going below 75pts for the chassis would be approaching "too cheap" territory for how durable they are. And even at 75pts, i'd still spend the extra 5 for KBBs (hypothetical) (Funny bit about the squigbuggy apparently the article actually claimed it to be a proper battletank....wut?)
Vineheart01 wrote: That or have a proper machine-gun like the advertisement bragged about
"Any Ork boss can tell you that one of the most important tasks to perform early in battle is the removal of chaff units – those units deployed to distract from and shield the opponent’s tactically significant targets. If you can’t do this fast enough, then you’ll find your army quickly crumbling away until you have nothing sufficiently killy left with which to destroy your opponent’s big stuff. "
The fun part about the buggy list is that you actually don't give a damn about chaff - you just drive up to said chaff and blow the stuff behind it to pieces.
It and the squigbuggy need a redesign. I think going below 75pts for the chassis would be approaching "too cheap" territory for how durable they are. And even at 75pts, i'd still spend the extra 5 for KBBs (hypothetical)
(Funny bit about the squigbuggy apparently the article actually claimed it to be a proper battletank....wut?)
Yeah, not too sure about the squigbuggy. I'm going to buy the model and give it a spin eventually, but if it performs as the theory expects, I'll just proxy it as scrapjet.
Other 2 buggies seem meh, but that's okay. 3/5 is better than most armies can ask for.
Pretty sure I'm going to pickup a second SJD.
It niches itself into areas where the MSJ can fall off because of the d6 re-rollable damage roll (obvious Death Skulls). It also will tend to have less of a target priority because the MSJ is generally more threatening.
I honestly think the right buggy heavy list will place somewhere. It seems good enough and people are starting to figure out how to prevent opponent secondaries (You give up Big Game Hunter, but you might be able to deny the other 2 easily), and it gets around existing anti-Ork tech.
Personally I'd rather not the mek speshul become D2 over more shots/better precision/S6 etc. It doesn't need to become even more like the KBB and a pure chaff clearer would be cool as a buggy. If it got +1 to hit rolls assuming all weapons fired at the same target (like a dakkajet, although range on burna bottles makes it a lot trickier) that'd be cool.
The squigbuggy just needs the squigs' stats to be boosted a lot, considering it's really tough to define how deadly a launched squid is that shouldn't be tough to sell IMO. The bile squig should be AP-1 and have the butcher cannon rule where the unit takes an additional -2 to their morale if they sustained any casualties. The bitey squig should be d3/2d3 shots D3 instead of D2 and the boom squig should be 3/6 shots D2 instead of Dd3.
It's also faster and more reliable - while you can expect a SJD to take out a TF cannon, shooting one with a scrapjet is more of a gamble. However, the scrapjet is better at taking chunks of high wound targets (especially with invulnerable saves), and works just fine for blowing up bikes, primaris and other 2W or 3W units.
Jidmah wrote: It's also faster and more reliable - while you can expect a SJD to take out a TF cannon, shooting one with a scrapjet is more of a gamble. However, the scrapjet is better at taking chunks of high wound targets (especially with invulnerable saves), and works just fine for blowing up bikes, primaris and other 2W or 3W units.
I think a good buggy list will have a nice mix of all 3, but yeah, MSJ is definitely the best all around buggy, hands down.
Although it's probably weighted on the MSJ and KBB. I have 2/1/2 of MSJ/SJD/KBB, if I feel inspired (and if it fits in a list I like), I might move it up to 3/2/3.
Be aware that Buggy heavy lists tend to suffer when there's an abundance of terrain. They have exceptionally large bases, so in, say, a city-scape you'll be rolling single-file through a lot of areas.
My suggestion would be to add some Koptaz or Flyers, so you can cover your options a bit better if you play on one of those boards. Or even some Bikers, if you're feeling froggy.
flandarz wrote: Be aware that Buggy heavy lists tend to suffer when there's an abundance of terrain. They have exceptionally large bases, so in, say, a city-scape you'll be rolling single-file through a lot of areas.
My suggestion would be to add some Koptaz or Flyers, so you can cover your options a bit better if you play on one of those boards. Or even some Bikers, if you're feeling froggy.
Totally agree. Although honestly, fielding all 8 of those buggies is only 744 points.
My 2000 boilerplate right now is 770 points (2 Bats, 1 Outrider), which is 60 grots, 2 weirdboys, 2 SAGs, 1 Warbike Boss, 2 KBB, 1 Big Shoota Deff Kopta. I could easily swap this to 2 Bats, spearhead which would drop the points to 679 if I took 3 individual Mek Guns w/ Smashas. (but does not include the KBBs, obviously).
That + those buggies is 1354 points (as I have 2 KBB as part of my outrider). With 646 points, I can actually bring a surprising amount of stuff on top of it. I could easily drop the Deff Kopta on top and make it so all 3 of my KBB are in that slot, squeezing 50 points if I don't particularly want the kopta.
Basically: It seems crazy expensive, but our buggies are bloody inexpensive. I love them. You are right, though. Last game I was in a city fight with lots of terrain, and I got bogged down a bit. Still workable, though.
For ex with quick math: I think I could take 4 Rokkit Koptas, 1 Wazbom w/ KFF, and a full Biker squad w/ Kill saw Nob and have all 8 of those buggies.
Kaptin_Grubkrumpa wrote: So quick question for those running buggy lists: have any of you played in a tournament/competitive scene? How did your list do?
Cheers!
(I've been a long time lurker on this site and finally decided to jump in and get an account)
I recommend reading this guy's blog. He was featured on goonhammer.
He's been bringing a buggy heavy list to ITC and has placed as high as 9th. And this was BEFORE CA where it got even cheaper.
Kaptin_Grubkrumpa wrote: So quick question for those running buggy lists: have any of you played in a tournament/competitive scene? How did your list do?
Cheers!
(I've been a long time lurker on this site and finally decided to jump in and get an account)
I recommend reading this guy's blog. He was featured on goonhammer.
He's been bringing a buggy heavy list to ITC and has placed as high as 9th. And this was BEFORE CA where it got even cheaper.
On the question of Mortal wound spam, I would like to jokingly point out something I did at my last game. While my Tau opponent wasn't bringing the cheesiest of cheese he was still borderline tournament level.
Turn 1 almost my entire army hid in cover and out of LOS, still lost 3 mek gunz though :(
Turn 2 I had a bonebreaker brigade show up via deepstrike and rammed them into 3 separate targets. 1 of them was able to charge and consolidate into range of 3 Broadsides, 3 units of firewarriors and his Warlord. I was able to do significant damage to 1 of his Broadsides and was alive on turn 3 at the start of my movement phase when.....I reminded my opponent that the Bonebreaker currently in CC with a lot of his units also contained a Warboss equipped with.....Rezmekka's Redder armor. And since he had not 1, not 2 but 9 units in 1' proximity to my Transport I would be rolling once per unit and on a 4+ would be inflicting D3 mortal wounds The look of horror on his face was priceless. In the end I did something ridiculous like 12 Mortal wounds, killing one of his broadsides and finishing off his HQ in the next fight phase.
You crazy son of a gun, you did it! I tried to make rezmekkas redder armour work forever and the most I ever got out of it was like 3 MWs to some chaff unit.
SemperMortis wrote: On the question of Mortal wound spam, I would like to jokingly point out something I did at my last game. While my Tau opponent wasn't bringing the cheesiest of cheese he was still borderline tournament level.
Turn 1 almost my entire army hid in cover and out of LOS, still lost 3 mek gunz though :(
Turn 2 I had a bonebreaker brigade show up via deepstrike and rammed them into 3 separate targets. 1 of them was able to charge and consolidate into range of 3 Broadsides, 3 units of firewarriors and his Warlord. I was able to do significant damage to 1 of his Broadsides and was alive on turn 3 at the start of my movement phase when.....I reminded my opponent that the Bonebreaker currently in CC with a lot of his units also contained a Warboss equipped with.....Rezmekka's Redder armor. And since he had not 1, not 2 but 9 units in 1' proximity to my Transport I would be rolling once per unit and on a 4+ would be inflicting D3 mortal wounds The look of horror on his face was priceless. In the end I did something ridiculous like 12 Mortal wounds, killing one of his broadsides and finishing off his HQ in the next fight phase.
SemperMortis wrote: On the question of Mortal wound spam, I would like to jokingly point out something I did at my last game. While my Tau opponent wasn't bringing the cheesiest of cheese he was still borderline tournament level.
Turn 1 almost my entire army hid in cover and out of LOS, still lost 3 mek gunz though :(
Turn 2 I had a bonebreaker brigade show up via deepstrike and rammed them into 3 separate targets. 1 of them was able to charge and consolidate into range of 3 Broadsides, 3 units of firewarriors and his Warlord. I was able to do significant damage to 1 of his Broadsides and was alive on turn 3 at the start of my movement phase when.....I reminded my opponent that the Bonebreaker currently in CC with a lot of his units also contained a Warboss equipped with.....Rezmekka's Redder armor. And since he had not 1, not 2 but 9 units in 1' proximity to my Transport I would be rolling once per unit and on a 4+ would be inflicting D3 mortal wounds The look of horror on his face was priceless. In the end I did something ridiculous like 12 Mortal wounds, killing one of his broadsides and finishing off his HQ in the next fight phase.
There is a better version of that, at least in terms of MW. Use a squiggorth instead of the bonebreaker. Less attacks 5 vs 6+d6 but -3 vs -2 and damage 1d6 vs 2. AND at 2+ 1d3 MW to ANY unit at 1".
SemperMortis wrote: On the question of Mortal wound spam, I would like to jokingly point out something I did at my last game. While my Tau opponent wasn't bringing the cheesiest of cheese he was still borderline tournament level.
Turn 1 almost my entire army hid in cover and out of LOS, still lost 3 mek gunz though :(
Turn 2 I had a bonebreaker brigade show up via deepstrike and rammed them into 3 separate targets. 1 of them was able to charge and consolidate into range of 3 Broadsides, 3 units of firewarriors and his Warlord. I was able to do significant damage to 1 of his Broadsides and was alive on turn 3 at the start of my movement phase when.....I reminded my opponent that the Bonebreaker currently in CC with a lot of his units also contained a Warboss equipped with.....Rezmekka's Redder armor. And since he had not 1, not 2 but 9 units in 1' proximity to my Transport I would be rolling once per unit and on a 4+ would be inflicting D3 mortal wounds The look of horror on his face was priceless. In the end I did something ridiculous like 12 Mortal wounds, killing one of his broadsides and finishing off his HQ in the next fight phase.
There is a better version of that, at least in terms of MW. Use a squiggorth instead of the bonebreaker. Less attacks 5 vs 6+d6 but -3 vs -2 and damage 1d6 vs 2. AND at 2+ 1d3 MW to ANY unit at 1".
Style points.
Weirdly about the Squiggoth:
Baby Squig is not <CLAN> locked for units, unlike the Garg Squig.
Because it's not a vehicle technically, you gotta gamble on the charge and not use the 3d6" charge strat, so it's probably gotta be Evil Suns to make it consistent enough.
You could toss in something like Flash Gits and not care the unit is in combat, as they can shoot out of the howdah.
But if you pulled that off, it would be a riot. Baby squigs too are like 160 points. Shame the bonebreaker (otherwise) is just objectively better.
Automatically Appended Next Post: To those that use bonebreakers, do you often fill them up?
I kind of like the idea of just having one deep strike -> charge in and disrupt the lines. Seems like filling up the vehicle just eats into your points...
I guess you could just half fill it with like 6 Nobs or something, that would be enough to disrupt the enemy.
SemperMortis wrote: On the question of Mortal wound spam, I would like to jokingly point out something I did at my last game. While my Tau opponent wasn't bringing the cheesiest of cheese he was still borderline tournament level.
Turn 1 almost my entire army hid in cover and out of LOS, still lost 3 mek gunz though :(
Turn 2 I had a bonebreaker brigade show up via deepstrike and rammed them into 3 separate targets. 1 of them was able to charge and consolidate into range of 3 Broadsides, 3 units of firewarriors and his Warlord. I was able to do significant damage to 1 of his Broadsides and was alive on turn 3 at the start of my movement phase when.....I reminded my opponent that the Bonebreaker currently in CC with a lot of his units also contained a Warboss equipped with.....Rezmekka's Redder armor. And since he had not 1, not 2 but 9 units in 1' proximity to my Transport I would be rolling once per unit and on a 4+ would be inflicting D3 mortal wounds The look of horror on his face was priceless. In the end I did something ridiculous like 12 Mortal wounds, killing one of his broadsides and finishing off his HQ in the next fight phase.
There is a better version of that, at least in terms of MW. Use a squiggorth instead of the bonebreaker. Less attacks 5 vs 6+d6 but -3 vs -2 and damage 1d6 vs 2. AND at 2+ 1d3 MW to ANY unit at 1".
Style points.
Weirdly about the Squiggoth:
Baby Squig is not <CLAN> locked for units, unlike the Garg Squig.
Because it's not a vehicle technically, you gotta gamble on the charge and not use the 3d6" charge strat, so it's probably gotta be Evil Suns to make it consistent enough.
You could toss in something like Flash Gits and not care the unit is in combat, as they can shoot out of the howdah.
But if you pulled that off, it would be a riot. Baby squigs too are like 160 points. Shame the bonebreaker (otherwise) is just objectively better.
Automatically Appended Next Post: To those that use bonebreakers, do you often fill them up?
I kind of like the idea of just having one deep strike -> charge in and disrupt the lines. Seems like filling up the vehicle just eats into your points...
I guess you could just half fill it with like 6 Nobs or something, that would be enough to disrupt the enemy.
I mean...I never use them in tournaments and competitive games but when I am playing for fun...yeah. I load up 3 wagonz with boyz in them and a few characters and tellyporta strike them. 1 is almost guaranteed to get in and the other 2 have a good chance to get in. Turn 3 they disgorge their troops who then bum rush in and start hacking and slashing anything that is nearby.
flandarz wrote: Be aware that Buggy heavy lists tend to suffer when there's an abundance of terrain. They have exceptionally large bases, so in, say, a city-scape you'll be rolling single-file through a lot of areas.
My suggestion would be to add some Koptaz or Flyers, so you can cover your options a bit better if you play on one of those boards. Or even some Bikers, if you're feeling froggy.
Certainly explaining part of my poor experience with them(that and not trying with CA prices). Here we have generally lots of terrain to ensure you can't alpha strike too easily. Makes those bases tricky to fit.
OTOH one can usually hide half a dozen of those from being alpha striked.
). Using it on a single model gives them something to focus on, but 3 dreads/ That takes a lot of the heat off my advancing army!
) So turn 1 I cut his airforce off at the knees and even my lootas managed to severely damage another flyer which they then killed turn 2. The game ended top of turn 2 because my army had cleared hte skies for all intents and purposes. You can always back them up with the Traktor Kannons but I personally don't like them that much.
