I mean...I never use them in tournaments and competitive games but when I am playing for fun...yeah. I load up 3 wagonz with boyz in them and a few characters and tellyporta strike them. 1 is almost guaranteed to get in and the other 2 have a good chance to get in. Turn 3 they disgorge their troops who then bum rush in and start hacking and slashing anything that is nearby.
I have a couple games coming up against Eldar and an RG player. I swear, I have to pull tricks out of my ass to play against the Eldar player.
A Deathskull bonebreaker out of tellyporta seems like a solid punch somewhere on the line. 6 + d6 attacks, hitting on 2s. I think it could dent the inevitable Ghost army I'm going to face... just not sure it's worth putting anything inside against Eldar since I doubt it'll survive the subsequent round of shooting between guns and smites.
i mean if youre going to just have it be empty just slap a squad of grots in there.
That way when they come out he either wastes his time dealing with them, or they potentially tie something up for a bit or at the very least get in the literal way/contest objectives.
tulun wrote: To those that use bonebreakers, do you often fill them up?
I kind of like the idea of just having one deep strike -> charge in and disrupt the lines. Seems like filling up the vehicle just eats into your points...
I guess you could just half fill it with like 6 Nobs or something, that would be enough to disrupt the enemy.
Usually just 10 gretchin that I upgrade to boyz if I have points to spare. Those get out as soon as they drive past an objective or eat overwatch from a unit that could be dangerous to a bonebreaka.
Outside that, I sometimes chuck Grotznik or Thrakka in them, but neither has a great success story to tell from that.
In my experience, bonebreakas never survive their first charge. Almost all armies have something that can counter-charge and destroy them after some softening up from assorted low-range shooting and grenades.
Putting a valuable unit in there is just adding free kills to the distraction carnifex.
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tneva82 wrote: Certainly explaining part of my poor experience with them(that and not trying with CA prices). Here we have generally lots of terrain to ensure you can't alpha strike too easily. Makes those bases tricky to fit.
OTOH one can usually hide half a dozen of those from being alpha striked.
In my experience, excessive amounts of LOS blocking terrain make speed freeks unplayable. It doesn't really matter how much you can hide when eldar flyers and TF cannons exist.
Add wazboms to you're speed freaks army and grill that thunder fire cannons.
But jep Manny buggies are not a good idea with terrain. B3 are okay more are to many big bases
How Marines kills wazboms on long range?
And you have movement 60 + 24 weapon range so you can stark in the last corner and can hit everywhere on the battlefield with 84 inch effektiv range
The thing is the TF cannon hits you with the stratagem and your unit loses half its movement speed. If that is used a buggy in the front of choke point or warbikers can destroy your game plan right there.
Also, repulsor executioners can snipe fliers out of the sky quite easily considering all the rerolls SM have access to and the min damage on the gun, removing a lot of variance on damage rolls
PiñaColada wrote: Also, repulsor executioners can snipe fliers out of the sky quite easily considering all the rerolls SM have access to and the min damage on the gun, removing a lot of variance on damage rolls
A repulsor has just 36 range no problem there
And a repulsor exe do about 10 dmg against a wazbom with rerolls
And rly no meta marine list use some at the moment
A repuslor execeutioner has this gun:
Heavy 2 72" range S10 AP-4 Dd6 (damage rolls of 1 or 2 count as 3)
If it moves half distance or less it can shoot its main gun twice
So yeah, they'll plonk down fliers easily
Edit: Also even if they don't manage to shoot one down the odds of them either killing it outright or putting the wazbom in its last bracket is super high. Now a wazbom with even a singular wound left is great since it still has decent firepower and most likely a kff bubble, but then it's not going to be fast enough to hit any thunderfire cannons unless you're super lucky with how the opponent placed them
Well, my opponents are. What exactly is your point? That excessive amounts of terrain is great because Wazbomm can maybe kill models that ignore excessive amounts of terrain because they ignore said terrain as well?
I guess that's fair. I mean I'd argue 8 damage is really close to the 9 needed to put it in its bottom bracket but a 5++ is one of those things that can be really handy (especially with a willingness to burn a CP on a reroll if needed)
I've only really faced a executioners buffed by a chaplain and recitation of focus (+1 to hit) so maybe that scewed my perception of them a bit. Well I also faced a double IF executioner list but I'd rather forget that whole ordeal since just those 660ish points could probably have tabled all by themselves (though I play speed freeks, so nightmare matchup).
My point was simply that executioners have the range to reach out that far and even though they've fallen out of the top meta a little bit I'd personally wait and see how they do at the LVO before speaking to their popularity since even a decent showing there will make every netlister buy a few..
Personally I'm not sold on hunting down thunderfire cannons with wazboms, I mean if it works it's great but honestly those guns should be well hidden enough that you have to go full out (though obviously not advancing) to just get there and T2 probably won't be to hard for your opponent to just movement block you into being unable to move. That obviously depends on terrain density and skill level of your opponent but it's a risky maneuver IMO
Jidmah wrote: On the topic of TF cannon hunting, trying to get your SJD to jump is also a good idea - a deff skulls SJD usually blows up a TF cannon without issues.
True. Hide them turn one. Than teleport. Not the worst idea
Jidmah wrote: On the topic of TF cannon hunting, trying to get your SJD to jump is also a good idea - a deff skulls SJD usually blows up a TF cannon without issues.
You need to be able to roll a 4+ on your advance for you shock jump drag, AND position smewhere 9 inches away form enemy units and still have LOS on the TFC. Doable, but so many variables... And the kill is far from being easy because of advance penalty to hit, with 2 kustom rifle shots.
Switching topics, I have slaughtered an IH list with a pure DS list comprising of the usual stuff you would expect in a DS brigade (SSAG and SAGs, weirdboys, large mobs of boyz with PK, grots, but also... Deff dreds !
For me, DS Deff dreds with triple KMB and one saw, 82 points, are just completely great ! The helped me get rid of both planes turn 1, and turn 2 helped with eliminating the repulsor exec threats. Though I think my opponent will consider them as a much greater threat next game hah hah.
I have tried playing lots of scrapjets and a KBB "rivet thrower" (so orky !) and I prefer by far the dredds. the higher AP, the d6 damage, etc. all combos so weel with the DS trait ! The glory of the 6 invul against a repulsor exec canon ! (only managed two but these 6 saves really gave an extra turn to two of my dredds).
I will be keeping to my 2*3 deff dredds for the next games.
Usually just 10 gretchin that I upgrade to boyz if I have points to spare. Those get out as soon as they drive past an objective or eat overwatch from a unit that could be dangerous to a bonebreaka.
Outside that, I sometimes chuck Grotznik or Thrakka in them, but neither has a great success story to tell from that.
In my experience, bonebreakas never survive their first charge. Almost all armies have something that can counter-charge and destroy them after some softening up from assorted low-range shooting and grenades.
Putting a valuable unit in there is just adding free kills to the distraction carnifex.
Yeah, that was my thinking as well. I just don't see how the thing survives a full turn unless your opponent just rolls terribly or somehow thinks that ignoring a Bonebreaker in CC is a good idea.
I am wondering if 1-2 Deff Dreads don't just do this job better. Roughly the same cost for two, can take two very powerful guns if they happen to be around next turn, and are probably more resilient per point (3+ save, 8 wounds, T7 vs 4+ save, T8, 16 wounds, but the breaker degrades). The only problem is Ramming speed can't affect both, so I can't guarantee both make the charge. 2 Deff Dreads w/ Klaw, saw is pretty scary -- one isn't so scary. Countercharge can also screw you over with 2 separate units.
Maybe optimally, just take 1 dread w/ 4 CC weapons and assume it'll just die the next turn anyway?
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T1nk4bell wrote: Love da dreads with 2 kmb 2 klaws had a great success with them so far
I think klaw, saw is even better just to save 5 points, but yeah, I think this load on a dread is sexy. If you don't care about 3 wound models so much too, you can even go saw, saw, kmb, kmb for 83 points. That's bloody good value.
It only works on models that lack FLY or TITANIC Keywords. So a Flier is completely immune to having its speed halved, unless they can somehow remove the FLY Keyword from it first.
It only works on models that lack FLY or TITANIC Keywords. So a Flier is completely immune to having its speed halved, unless they can somehow remove the FLY Keyword from it first.
Heh.
Stormboyz really are just more optimal boyz now, aren't they? They can ignore the bs stratagem.
It only works on models that lack FLY or TITANIC Keywords. So a Flier is completely immune to having its speed halved, unless they can somehow remove the FLY Keyword from it first.
Heh.
Stormboyz really are just more optimal boyz now, aren't they? They can ignore the bs stratagem.
They can still get boppped pretty hard by 4d3 (or 8d3, with shoot twice) BS 2+, probably rerolling, S5 AP-1/2 shots.
JNAProductions wrote: They can still get boppped pretty hard by 4d3 (or 8d3, with shoot twice) BS 2+, probably rerolling, S5 AP-1/2 shots.
Absolutely true. At least the survivors can act normally if they survive that, though.
Honestly, the stratagem is the worst part. TFCs are nasty enmass, but even 4d3 shots is only 8 hits, 5.36 wounds, and you can have the boyz under a KFF and/or painboy aura to make it not so bad.. They can survive that. It's just that if they can't act normally after that, they are deadweight.
Of course, then you have the rest of the bolter fire to slaughter them
Vineheart01 wrote: TFCs just counter boyz way too well for what they cost.
Something strong enough to threaten technically anything shouldnt be that cheap.
Strong and consistent AND resilient.
Potentially sporting a 1+ save, can hide out of LoS, comes with a useful character, can threaten heavy infantry, enough shots to threaten light infantry, re-roll 1s to hit, and has one of the best stratagems in the game (removing movement can basically invalidate huge swaths of units, even if the TFC is a bit weaker against them).
I'm confident it could go up 40-50 points and they'd still be taken.
The crazy thing is that the techmarine isn't like a mek krew member that basically doesn't exist. He's an actual techmarine, capable of repairing etc. Which means that GW thinks a thunderfire cannon is worth like 40 points, or in ork terms, 2 lobbas...
A techmarine (doesn't have to be that one specifically) has to be within 6" of it at all times or it automatically dies.. But to shoot it a techmarine has to be within 3" of it
But actually the techmarine with harness (which the gunner has) is 56 points and a thunderfire cannon is 92 points, so the gun itself is actually only 36 points. It's pretty crazy TBH and it should probably be around 120 easy
Edit: Unless lobbas got an AP-1 I wouldn't use them, random amount of AP-0 shots aren't that sexy IMO
Theyre literally an indirect bigshoota. Since when were bigshootas being a threat to....anything? I cant remember the last time any bigshootas i fired killed more than 1-2 random marines throughout the entire game.
To be fair, a Techmarine with Servo-Harness is a close-range unit. To actually make use of their weapons, you have to be on the frontlines, which a TFC does NOT want to be.
To be fair, it's also still undercosted. It's just that it's LESS than the sum of its parts, since they lack synergy.
Sure, I am being a bit unfair. He's not worth 100% of his point in that situation. Maybe 50%, maybe 75% it's hard to arbitrarily draw that line, my point is simply that he's actually useable. And continues to be if someone kills the thunderfire cannon.
It's actually pretty crazy how good GW made that old resin PIA kit, maybe they had plenty in storage they wanted to get rid of?
PiñaColada wrote: Sure, I am being a bit unfair. He's not worth 100% of his point in that situation. Maybe 50%, maybe 75% it's hard to arbitrarily draw that line, my point is simply that he's actually useable. And continues to be if someone kills the thunderfire cannon.
It's actually pretty crazy how good GW made that old resin PIA kit, maybe they had plenty in storage they wanted to get rid of?
Oh, it's DEFINITELY too good. I don't disagree it's undercosted.
Theyre literally an indirect bigshoota. Since when were bigshootas being a threat to....anything? I cant remember the last time any bigshootas i fired killed more than 1-2 random marines throughout the entire game.
I see enough Dark Reapers where I wouldn't mind being able to threaten them after they fade and fire. Even killing a 2-3 over a couple rounds would be well worth it.
Crazy Idea to think about, what if you ran 6+ (over half your army) Boomdakka Snazzwagons, people can't ignore them for a better target because they are the majority of targets. And with a bunch your more likely to make explosions an issue..
I'm relatively certain the BDS are 80 pts, so you'd need like 13 of them to account for over half your army. Unfortunately, you can only include up to 9 of them in your army (as each unit can only take up to 3 BDS), so at best you're looking at 720 pts worth of them. That's a significant amount of points to fill out, unless you're playing a 1k game.
You'd also need to find enough space in your deployment zone for all of these Buggies, while also trying to keep them far enough away from each other (and the other components of your army) that you won't need to worry too much about exploding on your own guys.
Lastly, while that's a lot of fairly durable Wounds on the field, they won't be good for much more than blocking your opponent (and yourself) in chokepoints, as the BDS's guns and CC are subpar compared to the other Buggy choices.
Anyone have any experience with Morks/Gorks against CWE and/or Ravenguard?
Thinking of giving my Mork a field test, but I'm worried that it'll be an expensive paperweight against Eldar. Seems like More Dakka is better suited to my SSAG, and I'll be hitting on 6s on the premium targets (CHE / Wave Serpents). RG are -1 hit in cover, which is sub optimal as well.
Its still not going to do squat for damage.
9 shots hitting on 5s with exploding 6s is what 4 hits? If it had massive AP or Damage, that'd be fine, but i dont ever expect this thing to cause more damage than a KBB for the same exact points and i rarely ever expect that -1 to hit to actually save its butt either, since we have way too many things hitting on 2s/3s with all rerolls floating around anyway.
And as Flandarz said thats a HUGE footprint. You wouldnt have much else able to do anything just from not being able to get in los or even deployed.
Yeah. At least with the KBB, it also has 3 feet, so it would be a lot easier to spam and keep them all in range (although maybe not line of sight). It also is more of a threat to more stuff.
I'm working on my Snazzwagon. It WILL see play. I'm going to attempt to force my opponent to have a pop at it by psychological warfare ("Just painted this sweet new buggy dude!", "I sure hope it doesn't die!", "It has grenades that ignore cover don'tchaknow.") and basically throwing it at their lines.
To be fair, an explosion is always fun, no doubt I'll somehow end up losing half my own army but still, it's not called a BOOMdakka for nothing.
Yeah to be honest, I think that's the problem with snazzwagon, it doesn't really know what it wants to do with its current weaponry. I think they could have really emphasized it's nature as a shooty, disposable kamikaze variant of the danger the megatrakk skrapjet is in CC, where they can shoot all their weapons in combat, and they are guaranteed to explode (no roll required), and even unmodded 6's to hit against the snazzwagon causes a mortal wound to the unit that hit in in CC, as they hit one of the volatile promethium tanks and are bathed in flame. Heck, maybe even make the Mek's Speshul gun gain +1 to hit or some damage bonus when it's within half range to promote it being shoved down opponent's throats.
It sucks because visually speaking it definitely is one of my favourites.
Grimskul wrote: Yeah to be honest, I think that's the problem with snazzwagon, it doesn't really know what it wants to do with its current weaponry. I think they could have really emphasized it's nature as a shooty, disposable kamikaze variant of the danger the megatrakk skrapjet is in CC, where they can shoot all their weapons in combat, and they are guaranteed to explode (no roll required), and even unmodded 6's to hit against the snazzwagon causes a mortal wound to the unit that hit in in CC, as they hit one of the volatile promethium tanks and are bathed in flame. Heck, maybe even make the Mek's Speshul gun gain +1 to hit or some damage bonus when it's within half range to promote it being shoved down opponent's throats.
It sucks because visually speaking it definitely is one of my favourites.
There's a lot they could've done - with all the Buggies really. They're far too "samey" as is. Unfortunately none of them really have a well defined role either.
It is beautiful though, now I'm actually holding it I can really appreciate the piece. Absolutely gorgeous. That said - I've yet to find a Buggy model I didn't enjoy painting.
Buggies release should have happened a lot different than it did.
It really should have only been 3 kits (KBB-style, SJD-style, Wartrike-style) with 2-3 weapon options each and spiked ram being an upgrade for KBB/Wartrike-style. Also the base shouldnt have existed. One is anti-troop, one is anti-vehicle, one is melee-focused
Why they chose to do 6 kits, and half of which step on the other halfs' toes for functionality, is beyond me. I cant imagine the Squigbuggy sold even remotely enough to justify its molding process....
But hindsight is 20-20....it was a dumb move on GW's part and now that they exist we wont get what we should have gotten. Ever. JUst gotta hope they make them viable at some point.
We will with PA strats like Tyranids got for the toxicrene and haruspex and other junk (the one for expo is good, the one for warriors is amazing).
Boomdakka will have a strat to detonate I am Sure ! Scrapjet will perhaps have one to shoot better, and kbb I dunno, it shoots rivets and it has flamer exhaustion hah hah, plenty of room for shenanigans there.
I am not saying they will make the buggies playable, but g8venthem some added flavour they Will, I think
addnid wrote: We will with PA strats like Tyranids got for the toxicrene and haruspex and other junk (the one for expo is good, the one for warriors is amazing).
Boomdakka will have a strat to detonate I am Sure ! Scrapjet will perhaps have one to shoot better, and kbb I dunno, it shoots rivets and it has flamer exhaustion hah hah, plenty of room for shenanigans there.
I am not saying they will make the buggies playable, but g8venthem some added flavour they Will, I think
That's a good point, the only thing that sucks on relying on stratagems is not only the CP cost, but that you can only use it once a turn per unit most of the time, so it has to be an egregious boost to its damage/utility to make it worth it.
If they give the megatrakk skrapjet a specific strat and it's not one that enables it to fly for the remainder of the turn I'll riot. I really thought it would've had that as an ability on the datasheet to begin with since it's a downed plane and the reveal of the model was that ork commercial "orks don't need wings to fly". Back when we were speculating abilities on the as of then unreleased buggies that was my guess.
So a "turbo-boosta button" or "deploy ramps" strat that gives it fly for the turn would be the only thing I want for it. If it can start smacking supersonic fliers in CC it'd actually be pretty useful but also hilarious beyond belief. And assuming it's just 1CP then it could really help movement and preventing bottlenecks etc.
PiñaColada wrote: If they give the megatrakk skrapjet a specific strat and it's not one that enables it to fly for the remainder of the turn I'll riot. I really thought it would've had that as an ability on the datasheet to begin with since it's a downed plane and the reveal of the model was that ork commercial "orks don't need wings to fly". Back when we were speculating abilities on the as of then unreleased buggies that was my guess.
So a "turbo-boosta button" or "deploy ramps" strat that gives it fly for the turn would be the only thing I want for it. If it can start smacking supersonic fliers in CC it'd actually be pretty useful but also hilarious beyond belief. And assuming it's just 1CP then it could really help movement and preventing bottlenecks etc.
This. All day this. I also hoped it'd have the FLY keyword on release. A stratagem providing it temporary FLY (even if it gives itself MW after as it "lands") would be awesome.
I'm struggling to think of other stratagems for the Buggies that'd be that useful though - they're single model units once the game gets going so it's not like we can even buff multiple buggies via stratagems at the same time. Outside of some really egregious strats (auto explode and min 3 MW damage for example), I think they'd still struggle to find a place.
"When this unit Advan6ce, do not roll a dice. Instead, it can Advance 10" and gains the FLY Keyword until the end of the phase. After it Advances, it takes 1 MW."
An Actual Englishman wrote: I'm struggling to think of other stratagems for the Buggies that'd be that useful though - they're single model units once the game gets going so it's not like we can even buff multiple buggies via stratagems at the same time. Outside of some really egregious strats (auto explode and min 3 MW damage for example), I think they'd still struggle to find a place.
Having DG's auto-explode stratagem would be hands down awesome on buggies, some of them have 6" explosion range with d3 mortal wounds. As DG player, I have come to known that triggering such an explosion intentionally can turn around an entire game.
I really hope for the majority of the stratagems to be speed freeks/vehicle based, as those units are the ones lacking support currently.
Something I think that's definitely coming is the d6 shots stratagem for burnas from kill team. Still not enough to make them great, but at least they wouldn't be strictly worse than boyz anymore.
Admech have a strat that does that too where before i roll a die i pay 1cp and it just blows up.
I always found it odd Orks didnt have that, since their stuff is more likely to explode. Also Admech really only have 2 things they can use it on that cause D3 mortals....dunerider variants and dunecrawler. Everything for orks except the Killakanz explodes for D3 lol and usually its in your face too so even better.
Vehicle explosions simply dont happen that often for people to realize how rude it is. The 3 times ive had my naut explode i won the game BECAUSE it exploded and took out almost its points worth of gak with it lol. I'd be fine with the strat not affecting the naut, that'd be a bit silly to auto-explode 9" D6 damage.
Depends on what you need. If you're up against a lot of infantry, you'll want to use it in the Lootas. If you got a lot of armor to take down, you use it on the SSAG. If there's a mix, you prioritize the larger threat and use it there. If you Da Jump'd one of those units, you use it in that unit. Etc. There's no universal answer to that question; you have to be able to read the match up and your opponent and use it where it'll give you the most "bang for your buck".
Does anybody know of the Sisters' Penitent engine is comparable on size to a Deaf Dread? From the suggestions here I like giving dreads a go and these models with an ork bolted onto them would be ace!
Well, lets say you want to double-shoot with your SSAG. That should be 14 shots (between both shooting attacks). With Deathskullz, you get about 5.7 hits with normal Dx3 and 6.5 with More Dakka. If you've managed to get an 11+ Strength, you're already dealing more damage via MWs (11.4 vs 13), but let's assume you only roll a high enough Strength to get a 50% Wound chance. That's 3.35 and 3.75 (or so) Wounds. Let's also assume your target has a 4++, so we got 5.86 damage vs 6.56.
Is that worth 2 CP? Maybe not. But there's a chance it'll put in some work, and these sorts of builds tend to have CP in abundance. And, besides, what kinda Ork don't go all in on their luck?
Singleton Mosby wrote: Does anybody know of the Sisters' Penitent engine is comparable on size to a Deaf Dread? From the suggestions here I like giving dreads a go and these models with an ork bolted onto them would be ace!
Penitent engines are slightly taller, judging by photos, but I haven't seen them in the flesh together to be sure. In my experience of modelling ork looted vehicles, it's usually easy enough to trim or cut or rearrange bits to make an ork vehicle shorter or taller.
Yes, any mek would love to loot these then 'improve' them, and I'd love to see the results
I had the idea of taking the grot from the front of the boomdakka snazzwagon and putting him into the sarcophagus of those penitent engine as a fun count as deff dread. Unfortunately other hobby projects takes precedence as I really don't need more deff dreads but it's a conversion I'd love to see
Is that worth 2 CP? Maybe not. But there's a chance it'll put in some work, and these sorts of builds tend to have CP in abundance. And, besides, what kinda Ork don't go all in on their luck?
Oh I dunno about you but I guzzle CP.
I’m sold at going down to 14 (Bat/Bat/1 cp detachment) and I definitely notice that 4 CP is gone.
I lose 2 CP always though to SSAG and da Killa klaw.
But even at 18, it goes fast. Orks got good gak. Last game I saved my Wazbom from blowing up in my line with a command reroll.
Every CP you can maximize is really good. Netting like .8 hits with shoot twice seems quite inefficient ( but against -hit, it’s more than double hits, which is very efficient). That’s another round of shooting if they somehow kill your SSAG with orks is never beaten, for example.
When I really need something dead, I pop more dakka even if I don't need to ignore any -1 to hit rolls, but otherwise I tend to agree with tulun. Even when shooting max loota shots twice, that's about three addition hits, not really worth those valuable CP.
Only time I use more dakka not to ignore hot modifications I use it on my 40 man shoota boy squat for killing screen. It's about 12 hits more that's okay
What is everyone's opinion on the deffkoptas? They seem like a super solid choice to me, especially when considering that their guns are 2x the range of the warbikers dakkaguns, they can scout, automatically get 6 for advancing, and have the option to take rokkits.
PiñaColada wrote: I had the idea of taking the grot from the front of the boomdakka snazzwagon and putting him into the sarcophagus of those penitent engine as a fun count as deff dread. Unfortunately other hobby projects takes precedence as I really don't need more deff dreads but it's a conversion I'd love to see
Thought the same. But dreads are piloted by an ork, so I think it will be an ork of some sort. Anyways, my boomdakka gretchin is adorning the Wartrike already .
Those hummies from the Penitent engine kit might be fun to hang on the front of a trukk or a buggy. Or ain't that an orky thing to do?
Back to tactics: what is the most effective loadout for a DS Dread? Three KMBs and a claw?
Kaptin_Grubkrumpa wrote: What is everyone's opinion on the deffkoptas? They seem like a super solid choice to me, especially when considering that their guns are 2x the range of the warbikers dakkaguns, they can scout, automatically get 6 for advancing, and have the option to take rokkits.
I honestly think with their point drop they might be approaching green. I think they are wholly solid. The fly keyword is also really important.
I’ll probably give this squad a whirl next time I play:
5X Deff koptas
3 with rockets
2 with plasma
I have legends access. Clocks in at 190 points, plasma is premium with death skulls reroll, and it’s a great target for long uncontrolled bursts.
Back to tactics: what is the most effective loadout for a DS Dread? Three KMBs and a claw?
I’ve had great success with Klaw, saw, 2x plasma or saw, saw, 2x plasma.
Don’t ignore how usefully dreads are in combat. With 4 attacks and rerolls, it’s probably better than the popular 6 attack evil sun one if it makes combat. ( rerolls are really good it turns out).
after Tau is done yeah.
That is, if "The Beast" is referring to Ghazzy since i dont think anything has proven its orks. Not sure what else it could be though.
Going to be quite baffled if we do indeed get a new ghazzy and his rules doesnt change. I personally believe he should be a LoW given the fluff, but NOT in his current iteration by a long shot lol
@tulun: did you account for the increased charge chance with Evil Sunz? 6 attacks that are nearly guaranteed to get into CC are gonna deal more damage than 4 attacks with like a 50% chance.
Edit: my suggestion for Dreadz is that, if you're using them as ES, go with Klaw, Saw, Saw, and 1 KMB. If you're going with DS, equip them with 1 Klaw and 3 KMB.
flandarz wrote: @tulun: did you account for the increased charge chance with Evil Sunz? 6 attacks that are nearly guaranteed to get into CC are gonna deal more damage than 4 attacks with like a 50% chance.
It ain't no thing if you only field a single Dread. Otherwise, the others are probably gonna get gunned down in the next turn. Which is why I suggest the 3 KMB loadout for DS and the 1 Klaw, 2 Saw, and 1 KMB for ES.
flandarz wrote: @tulun: did you account for the increased charge chance with Evil Sunz? 6 attacks that are nearly guaranteed to get into CC are gonna deal more damage than 4 attacks with like a 50% chance.
Edit: my suggestion for Dreadz is that, if you're using them as ES, go with Klaw, Saw, Saw, and 1 KMB. If you're going with DS, equip them with 1 Klaw and 3 KMB.
Normal charge with individual rerolls is like 50-60% without ramming speed. You’ll make loads of them. ( basically, ere we go is really good).
And you’ll get shot out anyway with the joys of falling back. You can’t keep the unit locked in combat if they don’t wanna be there.
I usually load two in the tellyporta. Fitting 3 in between screens is hard anyway. One is guaranteed in with ramming speed and other has a decent chance.
It works really well. ES version is pricier (CC weapons are expensive) and the KMB really shines with rerolls, not so much without.
9" charge with rerolls is 47.8%. Still good, considering the normal is 27.8%, but obviously worse than a 73% chance.
Basically, if you wanna compare DS 2 Klaw/2 KMB and ES Klaw/2 Saw/KMB, reduce the CC end result of the DS Dread by 1/2 and the ES Dread by 1/4th.
Also bear in mind that dropping Dreadz out of Tellyporta and using Ramming Speed is already eating 4 CP. If you're running DS, you're probably better off saving those 2 CP (I know how much you hate using CP inefficiently), taking another KMB, and banking on dealing most of your damage at range than in CC (really, you're giving up 1 CC attack for another KMB shot. Why are you not doing this if you're Deathskullz?). If you're going ES, you also don't need to rely as heavily on Ramming Speed, because you have a good chance to get in. Again, you can save yourself 2 CP, and with a decent chance to get into CC, you can take the "better" CC load-out.
Or, take 3 Dreadz, two with a ranged load-out and one with a CC load-out, and Ramming Speed the CC Dread while the other two provide support. That works too.
I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying if you take DS, you should focus on the KMB where your rerolls do the most good. If you take ES, you should focus on the CC elements where your bonus to Charge does the most good. If you don't field an ES detachment, you're probably best fielding a 3 KMB Dread, rather than going half and half on your CC and Ranged. Especially if you're fielding more than 1 Dread.
flandarz wrote: I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying if you take DS, you should focus on the KMB where your rerolls do the most good. If you take ES, you should focus on the CC elements where your bonus to Charge does the most good. If you don't field an ES detachment, you're probably best fielding a 3 KMB Dread, rather than going half and half on your CC and Ranged. Especially if you're fielding more than 1 Dread.
Ah, no, I don't agree.
So the great thing about the Mixed, DS Dread (2 CC weapons, 2 KMB) is that its *actually* the rough equivalent to the full CCES one in combat. I can guarantee one in for 2 CP (which you wanna do anyway for the mortal wounds).
Deff Dreads are distraction carnifexes anyway -- and they do it incredibly well. Just potent enough to be annoying, but in the grand scheme of things, probably don't swing the battle. You probably don't really wanna go with more than 2, as the extra points for the 3rd isn't necessarily doing much beyond what the 1st and 2nd one are doing.
The nice thing about fielding 2 is actually some tech against Auspex scan / Forewarned / (etc). They can only choose one to shoot if they do so, and the other healthy one can freely Ramming speed in the face of a target you want tagged / smashed up.
Either way, I wanna tellyport them in your face and charge. Going down to 3 attacks actually makes it pretty weak imo, even with rerolls. I can still plink 2 plasma shots at a juicy vehicle somewhere with their range, especially when I choose the deployment.
That 3rd KMB shot also makes me way more likely to overheat.
1) it's only the rough equivalent if you use the Ramming Speed Strat, which means the equivalency falls off after you take that second model.
2) it's still not a guarantee for 2 CP. It's just incredibly likely. And the MWs aren't why you use the Strat. Seriously, it's only a D3 MWs. That's a single Smite. You use Ramming Speed to improve your chances to get into CC.
3) if you're already planning to use Ramming Speed, then you should be taking a CC load-out where your far superior WS can be brought to bear. Bring your mixed load-out on Dread 2, that you ain't using the Strat on (or better yet, bring a load-out where you can deal significant damage even if you fail a roughly 50% charge).
4) a third Dread will give you approximately the same value as the second one. Not necessary to eat an Auspex Scan, but gives another 8 T7 Wounds and takes up board presence and provides threat. Because of the 6" rule, you can also place it away from the other two and have it perform a difference task entirely (like sitting on an Objective and shooting at anything that gets within 24"). The problem with the third (or fourth or whatever) Dread isn't about getting value from them, but rather finding a place for them on the board and still be able to charge the enemy. If you take a ranged load-out for them, it becomes a lot easier for them to perform for ya.
5) losing that 4th attack means you lose an average of 0.75 damage of so, which isn't THAT much weaker. And it bumps your average Ranged damage by about the same (accounting for the charge failure chance, and assuming this is Dread 2).
6) sure, you got a 16.7% higher chance of overheating. But this is a Dread. It has two states. 1: at full health. 2: dead and exploded. Taking 1 MW before your opponent blows it out of the water isn't going to do much to hurt ya.
Kaptin_Grubkrumpa wrote: What is everyone's opinion on the deffkoptas? They seem like a super solid choice to me, especially when considering that their guns are 2x the range of the warbikers dakkaguns, they can scout, automatically get 6 for advancing, and have the option to take rokkits.
Well, you don't really want any big shootas whatsoever, unless they are mandatory on a unit with other great guns (nauts, buggies). So even at 30 points, I wouldn't give them the time of day.
As for rokkit koptas, they have been rock(it) solid in my deff skulls buggy lists. Just make sure to keep them near a unit of warbikers, boyz or a warboss to mitigate their morale weakness.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
JimOnMars wrote: Does anyone have a handle on the optimum size of defkopta units for playing Maelstrom games? Are singles ever a good idea for these?
Only if you are trying to fill a brigade. In my experience a single one is not durable enough to actually make use of their decent melee profile, which isn't terrible at all. Even when trying to tie something up like a squad of sisters or guardians, those might accidentally kill a single one. Haven't tried units of 3 yet, but a unit of five has done me great service in to games so far.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @deff dread discussion: flandarz, I think you are underestimating the value of 24" range and double-dipping in deff skulls re-rolls.
If a melee dread fails its charge (which I constantly do, despite ramming speed), those points and CP are gone without impact, while the KMB dread at least tends to hit one shot, even if it fails the charge.
With dreads you really want to catch something vulnerable, meaning you are looking for opening behind enemy lines - fitting 3 dreads in there is rarely doable.
Last, but not least, dropping from 4 attacks to 3 is quite a big issue. You lose the ability to squish most characters reliably, are unable to force moral tests on most armies and have a zero chance of taking out a medium sized vehicle. 4 CCW + 2 KMB really is the sweet spot where the dread is actually good at both tasks.
They used to, but then were pushed out by gorkanauts which then in turn were pushed out by MANz. All three basically fill the same role, but none are consistent enough for top tables.
I remember reading a post by Nick Nanavati where he discusses Deff Dread tactica. But as we all now, he never won anything with orks.
In general "top tables" seem to be closed for orks, the reason why I'm no longer posting top placements is not for the lack of me checking for them - orks are simply unable to handle the top marine builds.
Singleton Mosby wrote: Does anybody know of the Sisters' Penitent engine is comparable on size to a Deaf Dread? From the suggestions here I like giving dreads a go and these models with an ork bolted onto them would be ace!
I played a friend with the new SoB box set and the engine was smaller than a deff dredd, about killa kan size but much taller. It could be done, but it'd look puny next to another deff dread.
Kaptin_Grubkrumpa wrote: What is everyone's opinion on the deffkoptas? They seem like a super solid choice to me, especially when considering that their guns are 2x the range of the warbikers dakkaguns, they can scout, automatically get 6 for advancing, and have the option to take rokkits.
Well, you don't really want any big shootas whatsoever, unless they are mandatory on a unit with other great guns (nauts, buggies). So even at 30 points, I wouldn't give them the time of day.
As for rokkit koptas, they have been rock(it) solid in my deff skulls buggy lists. Just make sure to keep them near a unit of warbikers, boyz or a warboss to mitigate their morale weakness.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
JimOnMars wrote: Does anyone have a handle on the optimum size of defkopta units for playing Maelstrom games? Are singles ever a good idea for these?
Only if you are trying to fill a brigade. In my experience a single one is not durable enough to actually make use of their decent melee profile, which isn't terrible at all. Even when trying to tie something up like a squad of sisters or guardians, those might accidentally kill a single one. Haven't tried units of 3 yet, but a unit of five has done me great service in to games so far.
I'd agree with this, I've used them singly with rokits and DS, and they're very handy to fill in slots to make a Brigade. In a recent ITC game the were very useful in helping me score recon every turn.
If you're allowed Legends then the KMB is a no-brainer actually making it cheaper. If not then rokkits or shootas depending on the role you want for them.
Now then Burnas got a prize reduction, I have been thinking on running them inside a Chinork Warkopta. They have a formidable threat range of 30’’ with there flamer. Appreciate if someone can give me some comments on this!
Nora wrote: Now then Burnas got a prize reduction, I have been thinking on running them inside a Chinork Warkopta. They have a formidable threat range of 30’’ with there flamer. Appreciate if someone can give me some comments on this!
My only comment on this would be, "do the math". If you feel like you'll often have targets that worry about ~30 S4 hits a lot, it might work, but I know it doesn't for me.
Burna boys are still meh. The point reduction is nice, and if you perma face guardsman and cultists they may have a place. But VS everything else it's lost points
Burnas excel at hurting something orks already hurt stupid reliably.
A 30man squad of Shootaboyz does about as much damage as a squad of Burnas, and takes twice the shots to remove...and burnas are still not exactly "cheap"
And the range....the range pretty much means those burnas will NOT do anything turn1, cannot tellyport and attack, and thus are limited to a transport that isnt exactly tough to kill.
Even if they do hit something they probably wont do it more than once since theyre so easily removed.
They technically are a bigger threat too so they'll get attention. 31 S4 AP2 attacks can cut through things pretty quick if allowed to charge. I doubt i'll ever, ever see burnas in a melee since therye wayyyyy too squishy.
Vineheart01 wrote: Burnas excel at hurting something orks already hurt stupid reliably.
A 30man squad of Shootaboyz does about as much damage as a squad of Burnas, and takes twice the shots to remove...and burnas are still not exactly "cheap"
And the range....the range pretty much means those burnas will NOT do anything turn1, cannot tellyport and attack, and thus are limited to a transport that isnt exactly tough to kill.
Even if they do hit something they probably wont do it more than once since theyre so easily removed.
They technically are a bigger threat too so they'll get attention. 31 S4 AP2 attacks can cut through things pretty quick if allowed to charge. I doubt i'll ever, ever see burnas in a melee since therye wayyyyy too squishy.
Range isn't issue with kopta at least. Over 30" threat range. Bigger than flash gits.
Stretching but how would this deal with eldar planes?those can be tricky to hit since can't rely on stratagem. Probably still poor though
tneva82 wrote: Range isn't issue with kopta at least. Over 30" threat range. Bigger than flash gits.
Stretching but how would this deal with eldar planes?those can be tricky to hit since can't rely on stratagem. Probably still poor though
"Flamers are anti-air" is a meme at best. Since you are wounding on 5s and then need to get past armor and possibly spirit stones, you are looking at ~220 points for a suicide unit that will do 2-4 damage in most of your games. You can have five rokkit koptas for those points and use your choice of moar dakka or uncontrolled bursts on them for a similar result. If target is not a hemlock, you can even charge afterwards.
IMO the best passengers for a chinork are tank bustas.
The issue is tagt iyu need a transport that cost points.
Just take shoota boys for them and you got more dmg ouput more footprint so for what use burna boys?
If you have legends access, I’m not sure why you wouldn’t wanna do a mix of rokkits and KMB if you’re running deff koptas as death skulls.
You can take advantage of the damage reroll and save 15 points per model. They’ll also be hunting similar targets.
Seems worth swapping out 1-2 in a man 5 Kopta squad.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Best spot for Burnas was in kommando squads. 2 as a free upgrade is sweet.
Otherwise naw. They are too expensive. At least kommandos infiltrate for free, and Stormboyz fly and can deep strike. If you’re gonna pay extra, get something more useful.
tulun wrote: If you have legends access, I’m not sure why you wouldn’t wanna do a mix of rokkits and KMB if you’re running deff koptas as death skulls.
You can take advantage of the damage reroll and save 15 points per model. They’ll also be hunting similar targets.
Seems worth swapping out 1-2 in a man 5 Kopta squad.
Mostly because KMB only shoots once and rokkits shoot twice. In my opinion, if I'm already committing 100 points worth of bodies and CP to shooting something, I might as well make it as shooty as possible.
Napkin math says that a KMB kopta gives me one shot per 29 points invested, a rokkit kopta gives me a rokkit for every 22 points I pay. Since I'm usually running buggies, a naut and warbikers with them, they tend to get a lot of mileage out of those extra rokkits.
Mostly because KMB only shoots once and rokkits shoot twice. In my opinion, if I'm already committing 100 points worth of bodies and CP to shooting something, I might as well make it as shooty as possible.
Napkin math says that a KMB kopta gives me one shot per 29 points invested, a rokkit kopta gives me a rokkit for every 22 points I pay. Since I'm usually running buggies, a naut and warbikers with them, they tend to get a lot of mileage out of those extra rokkits.
It's cheaper per shot, for sure.
I think it's worth considering, though. I'd say you'd do 1 or 2. Scrimping 30 points is basically a mek gun or 15 points is a kill saw upgrade somewhere. Mathhammer I bet it's actually pretty close, because of the bonus AP and Damage.
I also see plenty of wave serpents, so the extra damage potential of the KMB is well worth it to try to get around their field.
I would say both are completely valid, though. I actually have KMBs magnetized on the side of a couple Deff Koptas so it's a really easy swap out.
Stretching but how would this deal with eldar planes?those can be tricky to hit since can't rely on stratagem. Probably still poor though
Honestly, the Big Trakk w/ Supa Skorcha would probably be more annoying to planes than Burnas. Make it Deathskulls, give it Wreckers for the meme (wounds CHE on a 3+ then lol), and its solid transport for Flash Gitz.
I think in reality, the best things to deal with Eldar hover tanks / planes are:
1) SSAG (more dakka, shoot twice)
2) Trakor Kannons
3) Tankbustas w/ More Dakka, Showin' off (tbh, even tankbustas without more dakka on average hit ~33% of the time... rerolls are awesome).
4) Dragstas if they don't stack -3 to hit.
5) Smite the bastards.
6) Assault them. Wave Serpents are a bitch to shoot, but completely fall apart if you charge them. CHE and the like are trickier, but I'm sure you could actually do okay with Stormboyz + wreckers stratagem.
Kaptin_Grubkrumpa wrote: What is everyone's opinion on the deffkoptas? They seem like a super solid choice to me, especially when considering that their guns are 2x the range of the warbikers dakkaguns, they can scout, automatically get 6 for advancing, and have the option to take rokkits.
I honestly think with their point drop they might be approaching green. I think they are wholly solid. The fly keyword is also really important.
I’ll probably give this squad a whirl next time I play:
5X Deff koptas
3 with rockets
2 with plasma
I have legends access. Clocks in at 190 points, plasma is premium with death skulls reroll, and it’s a great target for long uncontrolled bursts.]
Plasma?
Anyways, I think they have great potential, especially if you were trying to fill in a Brigade Detachment.
Anyways, I think they have great potential, especially if you were trying to fill in a Brigade Detachment.
If you are allowed legends, your koptas can have a KMB for 29 points total, 15 points cheaper than the twin rokkit one.
I have mine magnetized on the side of a Rokkit one, so it's easy for me to swap.
What Jid and I were discussing above is whether you'd go with 5 rokkits, or a combo Rokkit/KMB squad (3/2, 4/1) as Deathskulls. I think both would work out quite well.
KMB koptas are so cheap i would suggest it even if you werent deathskullz.
But theyre not only Legends theyre also a kitbash to use so double-whammy to not use them.
Nora wrote: Now then Burnas got a prize reduction, I have been thinking on running them inside a Chinork Warkopta. They have a formidable threat range of 30’’ with there flamer. Appreciate if someone can give me some comments on this!
My only comment on this would be, "do the math". If you feel like you'll often have targets that worry about ~30 S4 hits a lot, it might work, but I know it doesn't for me.
Vineheart01 wrote: KMB koptas are so cheap i would suggest it even if you werent deathskullz.
But theyre not only Legends theyre also a kitbash to use so double-whammy to not use them.
It's probably better than the Big Shootas version at least. Clocking in at 145 for a max squad... 20 T5 wounds at barely over 7 points per wound.
That point drop was so big.
I dunno if I'd wanna take a full squad without any rerolls, though. Each one could overheat haha. Maybe 5x w/ Bad Moon would actually be good.
Kebabcito wrote: I still don't know how to play flash gitz, maybe we can see someone playing them in LVO
For not-fully competetive games I run 2 x 10 Gitz with 2 runts in two battle waggons and add another squad of 5 in one and some characters like badrukk and maybe some lootas / tankbustas in the other.
I try to bring them into 2 good positions so they do not have to move a lot with their heavy weapons.
Works best if there are buggies, boys and other things around that keep them safe and the opponent busy.
My alternative take is green tide with lots of boys, lootas and gretchin. Tellyport 2-3 squads of 10 and put at least 70+ boys (jump + tellyport) in front of them.
No game changer but they kinda are my signature unit and i never leave without them. With their profile they are quite good at killing Primaris, if i get to shoot without moving to much.
Too bad Primaris got a lot better killing us.^^
Guess the most competetive way to use them would be to run freebooterz and add stuff like Dakkajets, Shootaboys and maybe even Lootas together with lots of buggies and koptas to fully utilize competitive streak.
Competitive streak triggers if they sit in an freebooterz battlewaggon since it is a hit modifier, so they might get som`good shootin`without gettin`shot at too much.
Lack the amount of buggies to play this and i guess most competitive players would just play DS and take smashas instead of them. :(
tulun wrote: [
Honestly, the Big Trakk w/ Supa Skorcha would probably be more annoying to planes than Burnas. Make it Deathskulls, give it Wreckers for the meme (wounds CHE on a 3+ then lol), and its solid transport for Flash Gitz.
I think in reality, the best things to deal with Eldar hover tanks / planes are:
1) SSAG (more dakka, shoot twice)
2) Trakor Kannons
3) Tankbustas w/ More Dakka, Showin' off (tbh, even tankbustas without more dakka on average hit ~33% of the time... rerolls are awesome).
4) Dragstas if they don't stack -3 to hit.
5) Smite the bastards.
6) Assault them. Wave Serpents are a bitch to shoot, but completely fall apart if you charge them. CHE and the like are trickier, but I'm sure you could actually do okay with Stormboyz + wreckers stratagem.
It would not be just burnas but also flame weapons from kopter. Dunno. Just trying to think any excuse to use burnas luckily local meta is more relaxed with zero ih/if and generally toned down lists as i avoid competive events like plague. Enough casual ones to fill my tournament desires.
Sorry man, only good excuse for burnas is the model - it is great.
8” range = 0% chance to flame after DS. In fact this mean very low chance to even shoot before T3 = useless
8” range = in range? = you are in bolter rapid fire distance. Bye bye
AP 0 = what? Even the parrot of SM cleaning lady has something like 3+ sv with reroll againts players with blue trousers. How can you kill anything without AP?
Autohiting flamers = enemy player “whow, it' s dangerous, I have to kill this cool looking badasses before they come to range!” ...plop... T4 W1 and no save?... done.
I love this bastards. I used them in kommando squads (useless). Now I try to use them in Killteam [distraction carnifex and glasscannon experience btw.). we have to be fair...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Better to think about Supa Skorcha Big Trukk - also cool flamer and it can do something.
Tomsug wrote: Now I try to use them in Killteam [distraction carnifex and glasscannon experience btw.).
From my experience in KT, they are trashy there as well. T4 W1 6+ is really easy to single out, and just tap with a bolter. The only time I've seen them work was on Arena terrain (which is 2D zone mortalis with lots of LOS blocking stuff). Elite Nobs are overpriced, but at least they don't fold to bolter fire, can take powerstabbas and slightly help out other orks with morale.
Singleton Mosby wrote: Does anybody know of the Sisters' Penitent engine is comparable on size to a Deaf Dread? From the suggestions here I like giving dreads a go and these models with an ork bolted onto them would be ace!
I played a friend with the new SoB box set and the engine was smaller than a deff dredd, about killa kan size but much taller. It could be done, but it'd look puny next to another deff dread.
Interesting - pics without scale can be misleading...
I've built a few looted ork walkers, and avoiding the 'puny' look is pretty easy - after a mek salvages a broken Penitent Engine from the battlefield, naturally the first thing he does is add thick armor over any gaping holes This can be spare parts from the bits box, or plastic card with bolts and rivets glued on.
Tomsug wrote: Now I try to use them in Killteam [distraction carnifex and glasscannon experience btw.).
From my experience in KT, they are trashy there as well. T4 W1 6+ is really easy to single out, and just tap with a bolter. The only time I've seen them work was on Arena terrain (which is 2D zone mortalis with lots of LOS blocking stuff). Elite Nobs are overpriced, but at least they don't fold to bolter fire, can take powerstabbas and slightly help out other orks with morale.
Yeah... You are propably right. Now they works fine. Because they never shoot a single shot, others do not know, they are weak and shoot them first (so the burnas can never shoot). Works fine like a “cover” for my Nobz running up the hill... temporarily....
Tomsug wrote: Sorry man, only good excuse for burnas is the model - it is great.
8” range = 0% chance to flame after DS. In fact this mean very low chance to even shoot before T3 = useless
Here idea was to put them on chinork. That's over 30" threat range=T1 you go in and flame whateveer you want while also providing some protection against bolters. On foot sure it's crap. With that maybe not so worthless in casual enviroment.
I've started playing GSC casually and there are parallels to be drawn with the acolyte with hand flamers in comparison to ork burnas.
Acolytes are taken quite regularly because of a number of reasons despite being as squishy as orks. The weapons are broadly similar in that they are pointless out of deepstrike, have low str, auto hits and no ap.
That's where the similarities end.
Firstly, the GSC weapon is cheap, 1ppm. It's also d6 shots, which makes up a bit for its lower str and range. However, what makes these really playable is the strategems you can employ to make them useful screen clearers. For 2cp I can setup 3" away and shoot.
Now, consider that for 160pts I can take 20 of these things and set them upto 3" away from an enemy unit, even with a range of 6" thats 20x d6 auto hits. That's going to do good work against most things.
Basically, what Im trying to say is that burnas could be great even at their current price point if there was anything in the codex that supported them and allowed them to actually do anything.
For example, if we had a bloodaxe strategem that allowed them to pop up in range and either shoot or charge, they would be awesome.
T1nk4bell wrote: Use flash gitz together with elements that are scary and upfront, then the gitz won't be the first target and can shoot in round two mostly at full bs
I think the issue stems that marines probably have enough firepower to kill the front and your exposed gitz.
I think 10 gitz in a trukk or wagon or 6 in a big trakk get the job done. I don’t think pure FB can even remotely compete anymore if the big dogs can’t.
Nah you get me wrong. You need them in a trukk not without.
I meant 19 in trukk or battelwagon + front pressure ( 2-3 flier) buggys, boys or something.
Without trukk, Chinork or bw they will be instand dead
Orks dont really have much of an issue with any non-vanilla marine codex, even the other marines i dont really have problems with. Not autowin but doesnt feel like an unfair uphill battle where 1-2 units counter 80% of my army at least.
I wager if you could find winrates against regular marines and against anything else the % would be drastically different.
Vineheart01 wrote: Orks dont really have much of an issue with any non-vanilla marine codex, even the other marines i dont really have problems with. Not autowin but doesnt feel like an unfair uphill battle where 1-2 units counter 80% of my army at least.
I wager if you could find winrates against regular marines and against anything else the % would be drastically different.
Agree. I'd also point out that ITC is a bit biased against orks, as ITC rewards models and units killed when losing models en masse is kind of our signature thing. Many of my wins against marines using the CA 2018 missions would have been losses if ITC rules were used.
That too.
I used to like ITC rules and missions but now days....i feel like if we did them i would auto-lose if i didnt table my opponent every game. Obviously thats not necessarily the case but it sure feels like it.
Well the somewhat funny thing is, the fact that marines are badasses that can take a punch and slaughter their enemies is fluffy and probably fun for the marine player
The fact that Ork stuff is fragile, shoots ton, and promotes taking a lot of units that will end up blowing up (sometimes in hilarious fashion) is fun and appropriate.
Having a ruleset that extra rewards tabling your opponent promotes some of the lists you'll see at ITC (3 TFCs, 3 Scorpius whirlwinds) that I wager Orks could hard counter by simply holding objectives with cheap, disposable units (Grots, boys).
Both of these styles should be valid in a healthy meta.
I am of the opinion that movement , holding ground, and deployment makes for a more interesting game than who can win mathhammer.
The CA missions, albeit not perfect, I think promote a more interesting style of gaming than ITC.
They definitely do. I havnt randomly picked a mission in CA19 yet that made me go "uh....lets not do that one" lol
I'm used to basic 6 objectives get a vp every turn you control one or the OLD way ITC ruled it of every 100pts killed is a point for my games. Its nice to actually have some variety that isnt biased (or at least not heavily biased)
Tomsug wrote: Sorry man, only good excuse for burnas is the model - it is great.
8” range = 0% chance to flame after DS. In fact this mean very low chance to even shoot before T3 = useless
Here idea was to put them on chinork. That's over 30" threat range=T1 you go in and flame whateveer you want while also providing some protection against bolters. On foot sure it's crap. With that maybe not so worthless in casual enviroment.
Better use nobs with kombi-skorchas instead. If the Chinork is destroyed you have a tough nob squad with a 3+ save. Used or one at a tourney and it was a lot of fun, although very expensive and not entirely worth the points.
Well I have. But that's because I keep rolling same mission ridiculously high frequency In CA19 it's the disruptive tactics or whatever where opponent sees your top 3 cards and puts one on bottom. Still 2 missions I have yet to try...
The most fun I've had to date was a recent Four Pillars Eternal War mission.
Maelstrom's biggest fault I think is that some of the faction specific cards are way too good. Seeing Eldar get 8 VP off of casting 3+ psychic powers is a bit hard to catch up in (they get 2 cards with that bonus, and it can be given a bonus VP in some missions...)
When playing Maelstrom, do any of you play the BRB cards in stead of the ork specific ones? Some of the ork cards (except advance three units per turn) seem more difficult that just camping an objective.
Obviously, an objective underneath a turtled enemy isn't going to happen, but those in the middle seem easy and practically default if they are on your side.
JimOnMars wrote: When playing Maelstrom, do any of you play the BRB cards in stead of the ork specific ones? Some of the ork cards (except advance three units per turn) seem more difficult that just camping an objective.
Obviously, an objective underneath a turtled enemy isn't going to happen, but those in the middle seem easy and practically default if they are on your side.
Which do you play?
I take standard deck and just don't take the hard ones. As you build 18-20(in case game goes for 7 turns) you need to trim down anyway. I like the characterful cards so with all my armies I use some of the faction specific ones. Getting VP's when your own unit dies(more if character) with sisters of battle is just fun
JimOnMars wrote: When playing Maelstrom, do any of you play the BRB cards in stead of the ork specific ones? Some of the ork cards (except advance three units per turn) seem more difficult that just camping an objective.
Obviously, an objective underneath a turtled enemy isn't going to happen, but those in the middle seem easy and practically default if they are on your side.
Which do you play?
I don’t currently have my rule books with me but if I recall correctly they are worded such that the faction specific cards aren’t optional. With the CA19 Maelstrom rules it isn’t such an issue as it has been previously, they really help mitigate the chances of bad cards.
Yeah but at least here they are generally optional. Yeah house rule but as tournaments play it like that it's how it's played so those who want more secures can do so.
JimOnMars wrote: When playing Maelstrom, do any of you play the BRB cards in stead of the ork specific ones? Some of the ork cards (except advance three units per turn) seem more difficult that just camping an objective.
Obviously, an objective underneath a turtled enemy isn't going to happen, but those in the middle seem easy and practically default if they are on your side.
Which do you play?
Haven't played new maelstrom yet, but in CA 2018 I always scored tons of points from gretchin or boyz standing on objectives, so I'd probably go all out on capture objectives. Not sure about the defend ones though. Killing stuff is usually difficult to plan ahead for orks, as low AP and swingy shooting units often leave with barely missing objectives when the dice don't line up. I've had games where I didn't kill a single unit in close combat besides the klaw boss, so anything related to that is out, too.
Played against thousand sons and custodes yesterday, 2000 itc
- thousands son go first, so magnus was -1 to hit and +3 invul, I was not able to kill him in 5 rounds. My boyz killed LoC. More boyz jump and kill his infantry, but All is Dust was too powerfu, rubric marines killed my troops. I lost.
- against custodes I was not first neither, but first round I was able to Da Jump boyz and kill a bike, stealing his priority objective and getting bonus and hold more. I though I was about to win the match, but third round he deploy all his DSib my face and killed like 60 boyz, warboss, kff, 2 shamans and painboy lol. All his army is in range of my lootas, ssag, sag, 6 smashers and only thing I did was killing a dreadnought, he was invincible.
I always lose against armies with invul, I dont know how to play them, custodes and rubrics saving on 2+ to my boyz is unreal
They have the proper keywords of the codex so the same rules apply.
Gretchin dont get crap, so grot tanks and megatanks suck hard right now, and the other ork stuff benefits properly.
They were also faq'd to have dakkadakkadakka
Question about the infiltrating and deepstriking and stuff. When a Chinork scouts ahead, does he count as having moved? I only see the counts as having moved line at the Da Jump section, does that mean that the Chinork can fire it's rattler and occupants at full tilt?
Gruxz wrote: Question about the infiltrating and deepstriking and stuff. When a Chinork scouts ahead, does he count as having moved? I only see the counts as having moved line at the Da Jump section, does that mean that the Chinork can fire it's rattler and occupants at full tilt?
Counts as having moved. It’s coming in from reserves.
On a related note: has anyone kitbashed a Chinork? They seem like they’d be fun to play.
Gruxz wrote: Question about the infiltrating and deepstriking and stuff. When a Chinork scouts ahead, does he count as having moved? I only see the counts as having moved line at the Da Jump section, does that mean that the Chinork can fire it's rattler and occupants at full tilt?
Counts as having moved. It’s coming in from reserves.
On a related note: has anyone kitbashed a Chinork? They seem like they’d be fun to play.
Damn that's true. I was wondering the same thing. It kinda sucks that the rattlers are heavy. I was thinking about looting something for that vehicle. It seems like a nice way to DS a unit without spending 2CP
You could more dakka it but yeah. It’s probably not worth it competitively.
It would be a hilarious bomb if it had like 10 FG though. 4d6 shots plus 10 FG might evaporate a corner you’re in if you did the MD.
Actually, if people are thinking of deep striking FG in general, you could save 2 CP for 15 points for the deff gun version. That’s not a bad trade off.
Kaptin_Grubkrumpa wrote: How limiting is it for the Deffkilla Wartrike to not be able to change its wargear options?/ What are the major limiting factors facing it?
His naturally big base is kind of a problem. Really the biker boss is a better krumper for less resources and less points.
You could do something like:
Make him your warlord. Give him brutal but cunning. Put him in the kult of speed detachment and give him Skargrims snazztrike.
He’s now:
Str 7, ap-2, d3+1 Damage on charge / charged / HI, reroll all hits and wounds.
At T7 with a 5+ invulnerable.
Worth it? Given he’s your warlord, and you’ve spent a relic on him and a detachment? Probably not.
Yeah, the biggest drawback of the wartrike is that it's terrible in melee - it can kill a librarian, but will fail to kill techmarines regularly (assuming deff skulls re-rolls).
Shooting is alright, nowadays I usually have it hang back and shoot stuff with shotguns and killa jet melta. I tried giving it the fixer-uppers, but every vehicle (including itself) in the army goes from unharmed to crater, it had no impact on the game where I did so.
On a related note: has anyone kitbashed a Chinork? They seem like they’d be fun to play.
I have a Trukk and two Deff Kopta set aside to produce a Chinork. Plan to remove chassis and cockpit panel from Trukk; invert side panels to give the Chinork ‘wings’,; cover over the driver seats and attach a Deff Kopta rear to the Trukk engine. Second Kopta attaches to the Trukk rear, add skids etc and profit. Obviously have to extend the rear rotors.
So, avoiding to be too salty, i ve been testing too see how to survive long enough to score vs the heaviest of the sm lists.
Vs 3 TFC and 3 skorpius I don’t believe anything stand a chance. IF and IH are just too deadly. Also once you got one unit tremor shelled that unit is useless.
BUT I remembered one thing. The SSAG can shoot with ork is never beaten right? So MAYBE a well placed jump and a 8CP investment might be enough to give use some edges.
A boosted da jump (might want a +2) +2 CP for more dakka+ 2 for Kustom Ammo + 2 Ork is never Beaten +2 Kustom ammo.
Given that TfC is a veichle and neither the whirlwind nor the TfC has an invulnerable. It might be enough to take out at least 3 of them and than cripple the dmg output
22d3 fully rerollable ain’t something orks can put a fight against .
Tomsug wrote: LVO pure buggies list in attach. Pure Evil Sunz. I'm pretty interested in the result...
20 fast vehicles, nice. It'd be a fun list, but it's a gift for big game hunter. I'd be interested to see a game involving it but I don't think it's particularly competitive.
The more I think about it, the more I like it. A very fast army with +2 move and +1 advance and can shoot everything at full B'S with such a high volume of hard hitting firepower, very interesting indeed.
Admittedly most lists will have plenty to deal with light vehicles, but saying that it's about 190 T6 wounds, that's going to take while to get through.
Give one of the trikes the fall back and charge trait, and those scrapjets and KBB are dishing out MW like candy.
Tomsug wrote: LVO pure buggies list in attach. Pure Evil Sunz. I'm pretty interested in the result...
20 fast vehicles, nice. It'd be a fun list, but it's a gift for big game hunter. I'd be interested to see a game involving it but I don't think it's particularly competitive.
The more I think about it, the more I like it. A very fast army with +2 move and +1 advance and can shoot everything at full B'S with such a high volume of hard hitting firepower, very interesting indeed.
Admittedly most lists will have plenty to deal with light vehicles, but saying that it's about 190 T6 wounds, that's going to take while to get through.
Give one of the trikes the fall back and charge trait, and those scrapjets and KBB are dishing out MW like candy.
Heavily dependant on first turn for sure. But basically wiped out ultramarine force with 3 infiltrator dreadnoughts, 3 flyers, some predators etc. Orks went first and wiped out tanks and dreads in one go leaving planes and some infantry.
Jidmah wrote: Keep in mind that the SSAG has a 50% chance to not even do a single point of damage when shooting a whirlwind.
A wazbomm seems a much better solution to that problem.
DS SSAG with napkin matte :
7 Shots, 2/3 hit+ 1 hit from rerolls and MD, 3/4 hits, S7 with the trait should be 2/3 wounded and 8> Wounds totalled. or? Than I can shoot 4 times in total if I jump the dude t1, 6 T2 .
The wazbomb is going down after 4 shots S8 and 2 shots S2d6.
I mean is some real gamble but it feel that there is a higher chance with the SSAG. I really wanna field the wazbomb again, I played half season Ben Jurek Freeboterz, but ATM I cant see how it does anything more than die. Maybe playn 3 would be viable, but I d need to take off the tankabusta. Dunno if it is worth.
Except average damage doesn't tell full story. Do you know what pylon average damage is vs baneblade if you calculate shotsxodds of hitxodds of wound etc?
31
Odds of one shotting baneblade? 58%. And more realistic average damage is 19.
You can have average damage 4x wounds of target and have sub 60% odds(actually if stats were right odds could be sub 10% though that's extreme). And sag's of both type is bit like necron pylon in that it swings from little to none to overkill.
Tomsug wrote: LVO pure buggies list in attach. Pure Evil Sunz. I'm pretty interested in the result...
20 fast vehicles, nice. It'd be a fun list, but it's a gift for big game hunter. I'd be interested to see a game involving it but I don't think it's particularly competitive.
The more I think about it, the more I like it. A very fast army with +2 move and +1 advance and can shoot everything at full B'S with such a high volume of hard hitting firepower, very interesting indeed.
Admittedly most lists will have plenty to deal with light vehicles, but saying that it's about 190 T6 wounds, that's going to take while to get through.
Give one of the trikes the fall back and charge trait, and those scrapjets and KBB are dishing out MW like candy.
Heavily dependant on first turn for sure. But basically wiped out ultramarine force with 3 infiltrator dreadnoughts, 3 flyers, some predators etc. Orks went first and wiped out tanks and dreads in one go leaving planes and some infantry.
Imperial fists going first ate it alive though
With a nice low drop count to get that +1 it'll help mitigate, but yeah I can see this getting mauled by some armies turn 1.
If I had a fortune to drop on ork buggies, I'd definitely give it a go. I do wonder if going dethskulls instead might not help a little with survivability and increase the effectiveness of the punch. Even Freebootas might get legs out of a list like this. The +1 to hit mitigating the need to advance every now and then.
Here we play new style so it's 50-50 and when we deploy we know who goes first(barring seize) but that's hard to deploy out of los. You'll have so huge space(i might be seriously worried can i even deploy all without going top of buildings or something...).
Had i 500e spare would get though
Seems advances and charges play large role for him with teleporting around. And certainly gave him good way to get by crammed deployment zone and brought lotsa shockjumps into range from unexpected angle vs ultramarines.
For smaller amount ds would be better imo but with this many could you even rely on getting all to range without advance? He fills dz far and at least ultramarines were far on their corner
My roommate plays chaos, and he likes the Helbrutes a lot.
Usually runs 2 with power scourge and twin heavy bolter, and it gives me chills each time I have to deal with them.
With that "Crazed" rule seems like I shouldn't be targetting them in the first place, but if I don't, they'll rain hell on my dudes
My roommate plays chaos, and he likes the Helbrutes a lot.
Usually runs 2 with power scourge and twin heavy bolter, and it gives me chills each time I have to deal with them.
With that "Crazed" rule seems like I shouldn't be targetting them in the first place, but if I don't, they'll rain hell on my dudes
Any suggestions? Am I overthinking it?
Doesn't crazed only trigger on a roll of a 6? I'd just blow them away with a SAG or tankbustas, they are T7 and don't have an invuln.
My roommate plays chaos, and he likes the Helbrutes a lot.
Usually runs 2 with power scourge and twin heavy bolter, and it gives me chills each time I have to deal with them.
With that "Crazed" rule seems like I shouldn't be targetting them in the first place, but if I don't, they'll rain hell on my dudes
Any suggestions? Am I overthinking it?
Doesn't crazed only trigger on a roll of a 6? I'd just blow them away with a SAG or tankbustas, they are T7 and don't have an invuln.
It does, but since they are 2 and usually don't get killed in only one phase... They get some shots out
Complete and utter joke list that i really want to do for some reason. I have the actual gargsquig and have access to regular squiggoths proxies so now i feel compelled to be silly about it. Against even a semi-competitive list i think this would fold instantly lol
Tomsug wrote: LVO pure buggies list in attach. Pure Evil Sunz. I'm pretty interested in the result...
I really, really think they should have dropped 1 Megatrakk and KBB for 1 Wazbom. I bet you that plane could give his entire army (or close to) first turn coverage (Massive wing span for the win). Maybe even a second one too, just to try to provide some coverage to his army on following turns. They aren't the easiest to position, but I betcha with some practice you could do something.
I like the idea, though. Those dragstas might be TFC hunting machines, actually, because of that teleport + advance ability. Dragastas don't even get the -hit from advancing if they do that, too, because of his clan.
I just think it'll be a deployment nightmare and it's literally a glass cannon. But the audacity is so Orks.
That list deletes vehicles fast. Check out video battle report of either him or other guy running 2 wartrikes and like 18 buggies.
Otoh does show what i don't like in 40k. Vs ultramarines orks went first and basically deleted marines t1. 3 planes and handfull infantry doesj't win game. Vs if t1 orks got blown. Super binary game
Complete and utter joke list that i really want to do for some reason. I have the actual gargsquig and have access to regular squiggoths proxies so now i feel compelled to be silly about it.
Against even a semi-competitive list i think this would fold instantly lol
I love Squiggoth models a lot, but yeah. They just seem bad.
Have you busted out the Garg Squiggoth? How did it do?
Jidmah wrote: Keep in mind that the SSAG has a 50% chance to not even do a single point of damage when shooting a whirlwind.
A wazbomm seems a much better solution to that problem.
DS SSAG with napkin matte :
7 Shots, 2/3 hit+ 1 hit from rerolls and MD, 3/4 hits, S7 with the trait should be 2/3 wounded and 8> Wounds totalled. or? Than I can shoot 4 times in total if I jump the dude t1, 6 T2 .
The wazbomb is going down after 4 shots S8 and 2 shots S2d6.
I mean is some real gamble but it feel that there is a higher chance with the SSAG. I really wanna field the wazbomb again, I played half season Ben Jurek Freeboterz, but ATM I cant see how it does anything more than die. Maybe playn 3 would be viable, but I d need to take off the tankabusta. Dunno if it is worth.
Don't trust averages in regard to the SSAG, the chance to actually hit the average or close to it is tiny.
I couldn't do the full math on how likely which result of the SSAG is due to memory issues, but I could do it for dealing 0 damage to T7 models - and the chance was a hair above 50%. Which means when you take the risk to throw away your SSAG and blow 8 CP on it, there is a 12.5% chance to not put a scratch on any of the TF or whirlwinds. And this does not yet include the results where you damage your targets, but fail to kill them.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
tulun wrote: I bet you that plane could give his entire army (or close to) first turn coverage (Massive wing span for the win).
You measure to and from the base for all based models, including planes.
tulun wrote: I bet you that plane could give his entire army (or close to) first turn coverage (Massive wing span for the win).
You measure to and from the base for all based models, including planes.
Are you sure? I'd love to see the wording if you know the spot.
I know technically if a sliver of the tip of the wing is off the board, the plane is considered destroyed. I assume you measure *to* the plane for shooting and from the plane from shooting. Why would the KFF be the off the base?
I love Squiggoth models a lot, but yeah. They just seem bad.
Have you busted out the Garg Squiggoth? How did it do?
Gargsquig is mediocre. It can be a massive thorn if the 5++ luck is strong or your opponent isnt geared to deal with multiple knights.
Its main issue is theres so many generic super-heavy tropes that it just...lacks. Doesnt ignore heavy when moving, cant fall back and fire/charge, doesnt have a multiplying, weaker attack for numbers, only gets an invul via KFF, and just a 4+ armor base.
Its more a bad pick because of the CP loss for not having 2 bats, since if you run 2 bats and this you probably wont have anything else worth while. Also thats a lot of HQslol.
tulun wrote: Are you sure? I'd love to see the wording if you know the spot.
I know technically if a sliver of the tip of the wing is off the board, the plane is considered destroyed. I assume you measure *to* the plane for shooting and from the plane from shooting. Why would the KFF be the off the base?
Because all measurements are done that way. It's in the basic rules somewhere, you need an explicit exception to ignore it, like many hover tanks with small flight bases have.
It's the very same reason why a naut can't fight a unit in a building that is in base contact with its klaw.
I love Squiggoth models a lot, but yeah. They just seem bad.
Have you busted out the Garg Squiggoth? How did it do?
Gargsquig is mediocre. It can be a massive thorn if the 5++ luck is strong or your opponent isnt geared to deal with multiple knights.
Its main issue is theres so many generic super-heavy tropes that it just...lacks. Doesnt ignore heavy when moving, cant fall back and fire/charge, doesnt have a multiplying, weaker attack for numbers, only gets an invul via KFF, and just a 4+ armor base.
Its more a bad pick because of the CP loss for not having 2 bats, since if you run 2 bats and this you probably wont have anything else worth while. Also thats a lot of HQslol.
Yeah fair. You could take it on its own but you’ll get no CP for that.
I always imagined it would actually be quite a fun gun platform. Like, give it both Supa Lobbas, making it our best artillery piece in the game.
Then you hide it ( less fun) or plant like 15-19 ( 1 spot for the KFF) inside and just camp in a spot where they have LOS. Tagging is useless because they can shoot out of the howdah.
Stupid amount of points but if it stayed around for 3-4 turns it might actually make its points back. I think ideally you want it snakebite which makes this a bit more awkward ( could be done with Gitz too, but that 2 foot range sucks ). But could be fun as a lark.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
flandarz wrote: Should be on BRBpg 176. To paraphrase: "measurements are done from base to base, unless the model does not have a base".
Alright. Fair. So you measure LOS from the plane but it could be out of range due to the base. Woof.
if i wanted a backfield artillery piece i'd use a squad of supakannons not a gargsquig.
At 36-48" odds are people dont have enough anti-tank to take it out reliably at that distance, but youre also paying a ton for something melee-focused thats just camping. Also i hate supa-lobbas, insanely expensive for what they do.
Vineheart01 wrote: if i wanted a backfield artillery piece i'd use a squad of supakannons not a gargsquig.
At 36-48" odds are people dont have enough anti-tank to take it out reliably at that distance, but youre also paying a ton for something melee-focused thats just camping. Also i hate supa-lobbas, insanely expensive for what they do.
A squad of Supa Kannons? Like on Big Trakks?
It's sad the Garg Squiggoth is the only place we can take Suppa Lobbas. And yeah, they are expensive AF. At least they can try to root out TFCs.
You can easily do a more in your face version that uses like Flash Gitz or Tankbustas, but it'll probably die quite a lot faster.
When I saw it lacked 'Ere we go and you can't ramming speed it, made me a bit sad.
Gruxz wrote: Question about the infiltrating and deepstriking and stuff. When a Chinork scouts ahead, does he count as having moved? I only see the counts as having moved line at the Da Jump section, does that mean that the Chinork can fire it's rattler and occupants at full tilt?
Counts as having moved. It’s coming in from reserves.
On a related note: has anyone kitbashed a Chinork? They seem like they’d be fun to play.
I've built three of them from trukk/Deffkopta/plane and miscellaneous bits. Some pics below. Might be able to place some better pics and run you through the bits if someone is interested. Running the Chinorks for some time now since I love their orky craziness. They are super fast and handy but extremely fragile gunboats. They work very well wit tankbustas in them coming from DS. I also like to put in some nobs with kustom shootas or (very expensive) kombi-skorchas.
They die to a stiff breeze however. Not even a Wazbom will do much good to keep them airborne once your opponent singles them out. And beware of keeping a Reroll for the explosion cause it is devastating when it happens (lost half my army once due to it. But also managed to blow the guts out of my opponents army when it blew up). Gotta love these things.
Spoiler:
Looking forward to see how the buggy list does. They are effective but a real pain in deployment and when terrain is cluttered it will destroy your game plan and chance of victory. You do not want to play a game over the long edges with loads of terrain and a dozen buggies.
T1nk4bell wrote: The buggy list will have realy no chance to do something..
Hell 41% of all lists at lvo are Marines
Seeing how it performed vs ultramarlnes i would say he'll do well vs vehicle heavy armles when he goes first so 3-4 wins out of 6 is possibility at least.
ikeulhu wrote: It's official, new Ghaz is coming. We can only hope GW gives him both a model and updated rules that do him justice!
He will have new rules in PA but hopefully he’s decent. Hard to tell from the video but he doesn’t seem primeork sized. Hmm wonder if Makari is 2++ again doubtful or we would have some grot shielding shenanigans. Our book is still a bit out so hopefully he isn’t the only model as well But I was more surprised about the forgeworld index update I guess the warboss on bike is getting that proper book entry Maybe even some better rules for zhardsnark, buzzgrob, meka dread, giant squiggoth, etc
ikeulhu wrote: It's official, new Ghaz is coming. We can only hope GW gives him both a model and updated rules that do him justice!
He will have new rules in PA but hopefully he’s decent. Hard to tell from the video but he doesn’t seem primeork sized. Hmm wonder if Makari is 2++ again doubtful or we would have some grot shielding shenanigans.
Our book is still a bit out so hopefully he isn’t the only model as well
But I was more surprised about the forgeworld index update
I guess the warboss on bike is getting that proper book entry
Maybe even some better rules for zhardsnark, buzzgrob, meka dread, giant squiggoth, etc
Agreed on all of this. Ghaz doesn't scream Primeork size to me but we'll have to see the full model.
Ideally he gets rules to allow any clan to take him.
We still have an Orky boot and maybe arm so there might be other models for us yet.
FW update could be awesome for us, too many of those models languish with bad rules.
cody.d. wrote: It should be noted that Ghaz looks tiny in his new model. I mena check out his head to the left.
Check out his thigh though! Ghazzy NEVER skips leg day! In all seriousness, it might just be bad angle for the head because his thigh seems to fill out that armour pretty well.
Ghazghkull thraka was never a big ork, neither a primork, he was a lowly goff orc troop who gained psyquic powers due to a adamantium implantation in an operation.
Kebabcito wrote: Ghazghkull thraka was never a big ork, neither a primork, he was a lowly goff orc troop who gained psyquic powers due to a adamantium implantation in an operation.
So he must be as big as a boy with a big armor.
You do realise that Orks grow bigger the mightier they get
Kebabcito wrote: Ghazghkull thraka was never a big ork, neither a primork, he was a lowly goff orc troop who gained psyquic powers due to a adamantium implantation in an operation.
So he must be as big as a boy with a big armor.
You do realise that Orks grow bigger the mightier they get
He seems a little bit bigger than before, at least form my point of view (look at the human skull in his shoulder).
But still a 50 mm base, not a Magnus, LoC, mortarion... You know, we want a primORK lord of WAR, THE BEAST
I just want him to be the same size or bigger than my Iron Boss from Artel W. He's so big, its hard not to think of him as my warboss, and he dwarfs the current ghaz.
sad there wasnt a clip of him next to the grot. That would have made scaling him super easy. He "looks" bigger but its so hard to tell when its not next to something familiar.
As ive told my friends im totally fine with him becoming a LoW if they actually give him proper rules for it. What they did in 7th was a slap in the face with a chainsaw with that topic.
Ohh i cant wait!!
sidenote: i really hope they update his dataslate in Apoc too.
Ehh, even if he stays kulture locked it really is not that hard to do a single Goff battalion with Ghaz, a Weirdboy, and some Grots (possibly a unit of Boyz too if you want to try out some Skarboyz) since his abilities are not kulture locked. That said, I am hoping he gets a kulture exception like Flash Gitz to make it easier to just plug him in and it definitely would get GW more money if they go that route so there is some slim hope it could happen.
yeah i'll be surprised if he's not goff locked.
But with kustom kultures, if we get it, probably not an issue.
Also, forced to use a special character? So you dont like the idea of always bringing a named character but fine with the SSAG? I 100% do not care if a unit is so good i must bring them all the time...if its a character. Both because HQs are in general pretty meh this edition and i WANT my HQs to be badasses.
I could see it with Abbadon, because he is the Chaos warmaster but Thousand Sons are chaos, and they aren't hanging out with Abbadon, they are hanging with Magnus. I don't know about Sisters stuff so I don't know about how they're orders work, but from the idea I'm getting from PA, this is supposed to be a big push for orks, so it just seems like it would make sense for him to either not be kulture locked, or be locked out of kultures entirely. So that he can just be the boss that the orks need.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As always, I'm still very new to all this, and this just seems like what makes sense to me.
Vineheart01 wrote: yeah i'll be surprised if he's not goff locked.
But with kustom kultures, if we get it, probably not an issue.
Also, forced to use a special character? So you dont like the idea of always bringing a named character but fine with the SSAG? I 100% do not care if a unit is so good i must bring them all the time...if its a character. Both because HQs are in general pretty meh this edition and i WANT my HQs to be badasses.
If you need to bring sc to compete then yes i don't want that. It makes playing boring and balancing rest hard as ghaz by definition would be broken good to compensate for rest and helping other units would be impossible without making orks broken. 8th ed already had such a case. It's bad for game and army itself. Selfishess there hurts game and would shoot orks in foot.
Fix orks. Don't make broken crutch with rest being tax
And yes i would prefer ssag to not be automatic crutch either. Those are bad for game and army period
The better solution is just a mixed clan detachment anyway instead of a pure Goff
If he's just exploding 6's in combat, I could care less, unless he somehow gets a billion attacks. I'd rather grots be the same kultur as my SSAG or vulnerable infantry for grot shields.
Given that both Primarneus Calgar and Abbadon got updated rules when they were updated, I feel like Ghazzy will get a fair few changes as well. With regards to him being Klan-locked or not, I feel like he'll get the exception rule where he can benefit from the Goff Klanz trait but he doesn't make anyone lose it if he's in their detachment that isn't Goffs. Ghazzy already works above the usual Klan system anyways, and given his size I wouldn't be surprised if he went up to 9 wounds. Hopefully they give him at least 6 attacks as well (always bothered by how few he had in comparison to other CC specialist characters). I feel like he needs a rule that makes him more appealing to other Klanz besides +1 attack on the charge or his Klan-less "Breakin' Eads" rule. At least to justify his current cost, which is exorbitant both within and outside the Ork codex.
I've built three of them from trukk/Deffkopta/plane and miscellaneous bits. Some pics below. Might be able to place some better pics and run you through the bits if someone is interested. Running the Chinorks for some time now since I love their orky craziness. They are super fast and handy but extremely fragile gunboats. They work very well wit tankbustas in them coming from DS. I also like to put in some nobs with kustom shootas or (very expensive) kombi-skorchas.
They die to a stiff breeze however. Not even a Wazbom will do much good to keep them airborne once your opponent singles them out. And beware of keeping a Reroll for the explosion cause it is devastating when it happens (lost half my army once due to it. But also managed to blow the guts out of my opponents army when it blew up). Gotta love these things.
Spoiler:
This is awesome, thanks! I think I want to build 1-2. It seems like a fun way to drop in tankbustas from deepstrike while saving 2 CP. You can even give the thing a KMB, so it'll have a nice anti-tank round when it drops.
On a related note: has anyone kitbashed a Chinork? They seem like they’d be fun to play.
I have a Trukk and two Deff Kopta set aside to produce a Chinork. Plan to remove chassis and cockpit panel from Trukk; invert side panels to give the Chinork ‘wings’,; cover over the driver seats and attach a Deff Kopta rear to the Trukk engine. Second Kopta attaches to the Trukk rear, add skids etc and profit. Obviously have to extend the rear rotors.
Looking forward to see how the buggy list does. They are effective but a real pain in deployment and when terrain is cluttered it will destroy your game plan and chance of victory. You do not want to play a game over the long edges with loads of terrain and a dozen buggies.
They will probably lock ghazz in goffs, ghazz is not O'shaserra, it wouldnt be fair being Abaddon and stuff locked.
The point is ghazz must be good enough to choose goffs over evil sunz, I don't think it will happen, goffs are strong enough to kill whatever they touch, don't need more melee buffs
Imagine if Smash captains couldn't take jump packs. I guarantee you they would probably never see play (or rarely see play).
Ghazzy's fundamental problem is a good delivery mechanism into combat. If he doesn't get a bonus to charge, da jump (or tellyporta) isn't reliable enough for a 200+ point model; putting him in a transport means he has to wait at least 1 turn in order to be impactful (long enough for them to pop it and then shoot him off the board or counter charge him).
Slogging means he's damn slow. His auras will need to be massively impactful if that's going to be our best option, and even then, he's likely sniper mortal wound food.
We'll really have to see, but I am dubious. They would really have to acknowledge the problem of the walking boss and why it's rare to see one other than them breaking some heads.
Ghazzy absolutely shouldn't be Goff locked. His whole schtick, one of his defining features and character traits is that he works with any clan, utilising their way of war to best compliment the WAAAGGGHHH!. He has worked with Evil Sunz speed freeks, he has stolen Bad Moon tech and he has used some of the sneakiest tactics the Blood Axes could employ. Obviously he has the sheer brutality of a Goff and it's his 'natural' clan but he's far beyond that now.
That's the fluff argument.
The other argument is sales. I'll buy him, even if he is Goff locked, but other pure clan players might not, particularly if we don't get MAWarbosses back. Speaking of, is there any chance this is a dual MABoss kit? I can't see it myself.
In terms of rules, what are we thinking? Makari buffs nearby Orks or is a 2++ for Ghaz? Makari will also be an ablative wound almost certainly which is quite big. Ghazzy looks massive - dreadnought sized, wonder if he'll breach 10 W.
Kebabcito wrote: They will probably lock ghazz in goffs, ghazz is not O'shaserra, it wouldnt be fair being Abaddon and stuff locked.
The point is ghazz must be good enough to choose goffs over evil sunz, I don't think it will happen, goffs are strong enough to kill whatever they touch, don't need more melee buffs
Ghaz is kind of famous of leading any clan to victory, unlike Abaddon who has Chaos Marines of all origin join his Black Legion. Most of his closest followers weren't goff: Mad Dok Grotznik (Deffskulls), Orkimedes (Bad Moons), Nazdreg(Bad Moons), Badrukk (Freeboota), Kaptin Durg da Redklaw (Freeboota), Snikrot (Bloodaxes), Grak da Mighty (Snakebites) and so on.
In fact, Ghazghkull taking command of entire columns of Speed Freeks and using them with pin-point accuracy was one of the things which caught the Imperial most off guard during third war of Armageddon. The first ork tribe he ever commanded was a deff skulls warband, right after he stumbled out of Gortznik's tent and crushed their warboss.
So if any character is supposed to freely lead any sub-faction, it's Thrakka.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
An Actual Englishman wrote: In terms of rules, what are we thinking? Makari buffs nearby Orks or is a 2++ for Ghaz? Makari will also be an ablative wound almost certainly which is quite big. Ghazzy looks massive - dreadnought sized, wonder if he'll breach 10 W.
Doubt so. When you look at other remade traditional characters, we can hope for a +1A+1S+1T and 8-9 wounds. Which would probably make him pretty frightening. The few times I gave him a spin this edition he murdered his way across droves of primaris, crushing a unit per turn. The issue is getting him there though.
On the topic of Goff lock - I don't believe this for a second will be the case but my suggestion, both for power and fluff, would be that including Ghaz in your army lets you mix and match Klan units in a detachment. So your Meganobs can be DeffSkullz and camp on objectives while Goff boyz charge up field with Ghaz and Evil Sunz bikers zip around and Freeboota Flash Gitz form a firebase
Deadshot wrote: On the topic of Goff lock - I don't believe this for a second will be the case but my suggestion, both for power and fluff, would be that including Ghaz in your army lets you mix and match Klan units in a detachment. So your Meganobs can be DeffSkullz and camp on objectives while Goff boyz charge up field with Ghaz and Evil Sunz bikers zip around and Freeboota Flash Gitz form a firebase
if hes Monster then we have an issue.
Unless they give him a special rule, "Da Boss's Ride" where hes allowed to embark OPEN TOPPED transports, taking 3-4 slots.
Which is a concept i wished we had for Deffdreads back long ago when technically their only issue was they never got across the board...let them embark on a trukk or wagon w/o 'ard case, but of course its just 1 model. Would have been dumb but would have been hilarious.
Remember, Girlyman is a Monster and if Ghazzy is proper sized he's even bigger.
Vineheart01 wrote: if hes Monster then we have an issue.
Unless they give him a special rule, "Da Boss's Ride" where hes allowed to embark OPEN TOPPED transports, taking 3-4 slots.
Which is a concept i wished we had for Deffdreads back long ago when technically their only issue was they never got across the board...let them embark on a trukk or wagon w/o 'ard case, but of course its just 1 model. Would have been dumb but would have been hilarious.
Remember, Girlyman is a Monster and if Ghazzy is proper sized he's even bigger.
It's even more problematic than that.
If he's a monster, he can't really enter ruins anymore; He can't be Da Jumped; He wouldn't benefit from from an advance aura (unless he has a special rule for it); He couldn't be healed via Painboys (or even protected with their aura), etc, etc, etc
The infantry keyword is just too important for the myriad of rules. This is speculative, but I hope they aren't dumb enough to remove the infantry keyword.
Dajump yeah i could see that being sad, though realistically you wouldnt want to dajump him unless theres already ork units where hes going.
Painboys need a buff so this could be a kick to allow them to heal/fnp aura on monsters, which would be amazing for squiggoths byproxy lol
I'd probably Tellyport him every time anyway, assuming hes a massive beatstick he should be. By the time T2 shows up hes got things on either side of him to prevent the ENTIRE ENEMY ARMY from lighting him up easily so not a big deal. I dont see how you could ever get a T1 charge with him unless 1) they ... kinda break something by making him fast as hell or 2) someone goes first and is stupid enough to let something sit right infront of ghazzy's face.... -- so realistically any way you can think of to send him across is fine, since dajump would be suicide that early
Unrelated to Ghaz, seems FW is getting new rules finally.
Perhaps they'll revise the...what 80% of complete gak we can bring to be usable? lol. Lot of stuff is missing generic rules you'd expect (gargsquig cant fall back and fire/charge for example) or is MASSIVELY overpriced but rulewise is fine.
Given he's also THE bosses of bosses, I wouldn't be surprised if they gave him some innate ability to deep strike either, which frankly most mega-armour units should be able to do at this point. Given he's so big, I wouldn't be surprised if they gave him higher movement in spite of his mega armour, so if people wanted to keep his aura and buffs, he could still somewhat keep up if he runs. More than anything, I hope his twin big shootas get a unique profile as well (some AP would be nice), since they've always been baffingly garbage compared to all the other SC ranged weapons.
cody.d. wrote:It should be noted that Ghaz looks tiny in his new model. I mena check out his head to the left.
I will say on this one, I've just noticed this artwork of him in the current Ork codex
His head seems pretty tiny there too, pretty in line with the new model
An Actual Englishman wrote:
Deadshot wrote: On the topic of Goff lock - I don't believe this for a second will be the case but my suggestion, both for power and fluff, would be that including Ghaz in your army lets you mix and match Klan units in a detachment. So your Meganobs can be DeffSkullz and camp on objectives while Goff boyz charge up field with Ghaz and Evil Sunz bikers zip around and Freeboota Flash Gitz form a firebase
Someone get this man a job at GW for gods sake.
I can't tell if you're praising or being sarcastic
Vineheart01 wrote: Unrelated to Ghaz, seems FW is getting new rules finally.
Perhaps they'll revise the...what 80% of complete gak we can bring to be usable? lol. Lot of stuff is missing generic rules you'd expect (gargsquig cant fall back and fire/charge for example) or is MASSIVELY overpriced but rulewise is fine.
Yeah the last CA update I can vaguely remember more or less neutered our Kill Tanks, and other LoW's. Not happy about how crappy Grot tanks and other guys like alternate weapon battlewagons and big trakks have been treated either. It'd be great to take them without feeling like you're being handicapped.
Vineheart01 wrote: Unrelated to Ghaz, seems FW is getting new rules finally.
Perhaps they'll revise the...what 80% of complete gak we can bring to be usable? lol. Lot of stuff is missing generic rules you'd expect (gargsquig cant fall back and fire/charge for example) or is MASSIVELY overpriced but rulewise is fine.
As long as my big trakk supa skorcha is safe.
But yes. Agreed. Most Ork FW stuff is horrendously overpriced or underpowered.
Or you pay more points for grot riggers that’s on a 6+ instead of a 2+. Wat?
I would love if they made both Squigs good. The idea of Orks riding giant monsters into battle is awesome and would make for some fun lists.
You still cant include him in a different kutlure detachment without jacking up the kulture benefits. Thats the main issue.
With Grotsnik its a minor issue because at least HE is a Deathskullz.... yaknow the most powerful/popular one?
Ghazzy's abilities can be completely no-kulture and work on anyone, but still require Goff detachments and that would be just as bad.
As Vine said: "Kultur-Locked" means you MUST take a certain Kultur in order to field the unit, not that it has Abilities that only work on a certain Kultur.
You still cant include him in a different kutlure detachment without jacking up the kulture benefits. Thats the main issue.
With Grotsnik its a minor issue because at least HE is a Deathskullz.... yaknow the most powerful/popular one?
Ghazzy's abilities can be completely no-kulture and work on anyone, but still require Goff detachments and that would be just as bad.
flandarz wrote:As Vine said: "Kultur-Locked" means you MUST take a certain Kultur in order to field the unit, not that it has Abilities that only work on a certain Kultur.
Hence my earlier suggestion that Ghaz allows mixed Klan detachments without muddying the benefits
Grimskul wrote: Given he's so big, I wouldn't be surprised if they gave him higher movement in spite of his mega armour, so if people wanted to keep his aura and buffs, he could still somewhat keep up if he runs.
He already has that - regular MA models move 4", he moves just as fast a regular orks.
Grimskul wrote: Given he's so big, I wouldn't be surprised if they gave him higher movement in spite of his mega armour, so if people wanted to keep his aura and buffs, he could still somewhat keep up if he runs.
He already has that - regular MA models move 4", he moves just as fast a regular orks.
I'd hope he'd move a little faster.
Out of interest Jid, do you think his seemingly way larger base will have potential negative gameplay implications? He looks to have a base not far off buggy size!
That is one of my biggest complaints about the Wartrike is its footprint after melee means its almost impossible to keep from getting blasted.
If Ghazzy is on a base nearly that size.....oof..at least he has a 2+ and an invul.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Out of interest Jid, do you think his seemingly way larger base will have potential negative gameplay implications? He looks to have a base not far off buggy size!
I don't think so. Worst case it would be as big as Mortarion's and I always felt the large base helped me get into combat with more things. If Thrakka can still ride battlewagons, it's even an advantage because you disembark within 3" - larger base means less distance to the enemy.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Out of interest Jid, do you think his seemingly way larger base will have potential negative gameplay implications? He looks to have a base not far off buggy size!
I don't think so. Worst case it would be as big as Mortarion's and I always felt the large base helped me get into combat with more things. If Thrakka can still ride battlewagons, it's even an advantage because you disembark within 3" - larger base means less distance to the enemy.
Good points, I guess I'm just assuming he won't be able to get in vehicles and I'm certain he won't be as fast as Morty
I just wanna say that at end of round 3, at Lvo, in this moment. Warboss Anthony Birdsong is nr 1 with 3 win.
Maybe because it is because iz da boss, maybe because he has a lucky stickz. However it is just beautiful
An Actual Englishman wrote: Out of interest Jid, do you think his seemingly way larger base will have potential negative gameplay implications? He looks to have a base not far off buggy size!
I don't think so. Worst case it would be as big as Mortarion's and I always felt the large base helped me get into combat with more things. If Thrakka can still ride battlewagons, it's even an advantage because you disembark within 3" - larger base means less distance to the enemy.
Good points, I guess I'm just assuming he won't be able to get in vehicles and I'm certain he won't be as fast as Morty
Mortarion is slow AF if you don't soup and he can't hide behind other units and can't tellyport. He still gets there half of my games, the other half he just dies turn 1.
Thrakka is already great right now, if he weren't locked into Goff, I would play him a lot more.
Shower thought - maybe orks get the treatment that CSM or Nids got, with every clan getting one or more relics, traits and stratagems to even the scales between them a bit. Maybe even a bonus for running mono-clan to discourage the red-yellow-blue armies everywhere. GW has been quite creative when it comes to side-grading in PA. Blood Axes, Goff and Snakebites could definitely use some help.
Emicrania wrote: I just wanna say that at end of round 3, at Lvo, in this moment. Warboss Anthony Birdsong is nr 1 with 3 win.
Maybe because it is because iz da boss, maybe because he has a lucky stickz. However it is just beautiful
Emicrania wrote: I just wanna say that at end of round 3, at Lvo, in this moment. Warboss Anthony Birdsong is nr 1 with 3 win.
Maybe because it is because iz da boss, maybe because he has a lucky stickz. However it is just beautiful
Emicrania wrote: I just wanna say that at end of round 3, at Lvo, in this moment. Warboss Anthony Birdsong is nr 1 with 3 win.
Maybe because it is because iz da boss, maybe because he has a lucky stickz. However it is just beautiful
Boyz [11 PL, 210pts]: 3x Tankbusta Bombs
. Boss Nob: Choppa, Slugga
. 14x Ork Boy W/ Shoota
. 15x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa
Gretchin [4 PL, 81pts]
. 27x Gretchin
Gretchin [4 PL, 78pts]
. 26x Gretchin
+ Elites +
Mad Dok Grotsnik [5 PL, 86pts]
++ Total: [103 PL, 1,998pts] ++
Good man. List looks like hell to be honest - 150 Boyz, 107 Grots, MDG, 3 SAG, 3 Weirdboy and a Warboss. It's a "I hope you don't kill me too quickly" list. Very boring. Might do well though, it's our equivalent to the 300 Gaunt list Nids use in Oz.
E - his scores don't look right, isn't the max score for ITC 40 something? He has 54 for his second game?
Something must be wrong, the maximum points are 42 in itc
He won vs white scars/IH/IH 15 centurions/3tfc+Dread spam+ flyer spam
I have no idea how he managed that but that list is a nightmare. I would NEVER play it . I maxed out at 190 models and after 2 matches my brain is porridge.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Still hats down to him to have managed that results thus far. I don't think he will win vs Sean Nayden. That dude is a Aeldari monster
Honestly, I am thinking Orks is starting to have a convergence on Deathskulls. Evil suns is looking worse and worse, and Bad moons is really only the best on units that can take advantage of Showin' Off... and that usually means leaving your SSAG exposed because those units often need grot shields.
I don't even think GW has to do much to encourage mono kultur anymore. Deathskulls just seems to be becoming optimal for most units. Just having an invul save in the age of massed fire with a buttload of AP seems so useful.
if they end up forcing monokulture (which would be really dumb for orks to be restricted that way) then i'd be surprised to see any lists that isnt deathskullz.
Deathskullz rerolls only REALLY shine on the low rate of fire, heavy hitting D3/D6 damage attacks, but unlike other kultures it benefits absolutely every unit decently. Every other kulture has units they dont really want included.
Vineheart01 wrote: if they end up forcing monokulture (which would be really dumb for orks to be restricted that way) then i'd be surprised to see any lists that isnt deathskullz.
Deathskullz rerolls only REALLY shine on the low rate of fire, heavy hitting D3/D6 damage attacks, but unlike other kultures it benefits absolutely every unit decently. Every other kulture has units they dont really want included.
Well, even Boys often have Nobs, which will gladly take those rerolls (it almost makes PKs consistent...); tossing on a rokkit or two also now makes that unit take good advantage of it in the shooting phase for relatively cheap. And then there's that Invul save which they'll gladly take.
Having a bit of smoothing even on more elite units is nice, especially if the damage reroll can be taken advantage of.
And now, your infantry units, including most HQs, are now ObSec.
There's a theory a friend posited that each codex will have a "competitive" army; like for CWE, it's obviously Alatoic. For Orks, Deathskulls seem to have been chosen. Even Wreckers, albeit not as good as Showin' Off, is definitely useable.
I might experiment a bit with Kommandos, which I'll probably take as Evil Suns, but otherwise I'm probably going to largely roll as Deathskulls unless I'm given a reason not to. Even for Custom Clans, I doubt you won't want at least 1 battalion of Deathskulls just for your SSAG.
If they "force" mono-Kultur (which is really just adding bonuses to each Kultur for only fielding that one), then I'd hope the mono bonuses are decent enough to make fielding, say, Snake Bitez an attractive proposition.
flandarz wrote: If they "force" mono-Kultur (which is really just adding bonuses to each Kultur for only fielding that one), then I'd hope the mono bonuses are decent enough to make fielding, say, Snake Bitez an attractive proposition.
It’s funny how they get a FNP and that’s somehow supposed to be good enough.
Vineheart01 wrote: if they end up forcing monokulture (which would be really dumb for orks to be restricted that way) then i'd be surprised to see any lists that isnt deathskullz.
Deathskullz rerolls only REALLY shine on the low rate of fire, heavy hitting D3/D6 damage attacks, but unlike other kultures it benefits absolutely every unit decently. Every other kulture has units they dont really want included.
That's what the mono bonus is supposed to be represent. Fluffwise mono klan warbands exist and game wise if you dedicate to solo group you SHOULD get bonus. Otherwise there's no reason to not be non-mono which isn't fluffy nor balanced either.
And bonuses for being solo isn't exactly forcing. You can go for multiple. Even now at LVO there's soups with marines as well even though they lose mono bonus. Trick is to have mono bonus that's good enough it compensates for handicapping yourself by being mono without being brokenly good
if it was a better FNP, it would be fine. Like say the tougher the model the better the FNP.
T3-4 (including T3 since some things reduce toughness) its a basic 6+++ T5-6 its a 5+++ T7+ its a rerollable 5+++ Painboy gets perk to add +1 if its a mortal wound.
Though realistically im surprised they dont have a +1 to wound non-vehicles....poison shenanigans and all.
that one doesnt feel right to me.
I run dakkajets alot as badmoonz and they generally cause 3-4 rerolls for me. You mean to tell me that 1 hit/wound reroll is better than 3-4 hit rerolls on average?
I would expect it to be fairly close but not exact/slightly better.
Vineheart01 wrote: that one doesnt feel right to me.
I run dakkajets alot as badmoonz and they generally cause 3-4 rerolls for me. You mean to tell me that 1 hit/wound reroll is better than 3-4 hit rerolls on average?
I would expect it to be fairly close but not exact/slightly better.
Math doesn't always comport to feelings.
That being said, while I'd love to do the math myself, I lack the stats of the Dakkajet. (AFB at the moment.) If you can list its guns, I can show the math more fully.
Vineheart01 wrote: Dakkajets fire 18 (6x3 shooting guns) at S6 AP1 1D that hit on 4s if they dont splitfire.
Sometimes they plink off armor due to that AP1 and sometimes they just slaughter things for me. I love them.
im terrible at dice math i just know approximates i can expect. Factoring in DDD or rerolls throws that approximate out of whack lol
Alright.
18 shots (Bad Moonz)
9 hits plus 3 rerolls plus 3 extra shots nets you...
9+1.5+1.75=12.25 hits
3+ to-wound gets you 8.17 wounds
18 shots (Deffskullz)
9 hits plus 1 reroll plus 3 extra shots nets you...
9+.5+1.5=11 hits
3+ to-wound nets you 7.33, plus 1 reroll gets you an extra .67 wounds, for 8 total wounds
Vineheart01 wrote: that one doesnt feel right to me.
I run dakkajets alot as badmoonz and they generally cause 3-4 rerolls for me. You mean to tell me that 1 hit/wound reroll is better than 3-4 hit rerolls on average?
I would expect it to be fairly close but not exact/slightly better.
Well that's pretty easy 3 rerolls average on bad moonz means 1,5 more hits on average when hitting on 4+ that means vs t4 its 1 wound more done so 0,5 dmg after safe more than without rerolls.
At deffskull you have a hit reroll that means average 0,5 more hits than normal. But than iyu have a wound reroll at 3+ that means 0,66 wounds + 0,33 from the rerolled hit = 1 extra wound.
18 shoot Bad moonz =
3 rerolls = 21 /6 = 3,5
So 21 shots + 3,5 shots where you can reroll ones = 4,08
So overall 25,08 shots = 12,54 hits and 8,36 wounds. ( vs t4)
After 3+ goes to 4 + = 4,18 dmg done.
Deffskull =
18 shots +1 reroll = 19 /6 = 3,16 dakka dakka dakka
So 22,16 shots average = 11, 08 hits.
11,08 hits Wounding on 3+ with one reroll = 8,05 wounds vs t4
After 3+ goes to 4 + = 4,02 dmg
It's more or less the same dmg but the deffskull one has a 6++ that means math whise it makes no sense to play bad moon dakka Jets
At 18 shots, bad moon edges on the dakkajet, sure.
But I’d rather the invul save and a slight efficiency loss. If they are forced to overkill you or you randomly make a couple good saves, all of a sudden your plane is around another turn.
That’s more valuable which ultimately is the problem.
The DS rerolls also always proc ( unless you hit and wound every attack ) while hypothetically you can get zero rerolls as bad moons.
I’ll take consistency any day especially when the average isn’t so far off.
While I agree that DS is our "best" Kultur, and I wouldn't suggest building a BM or ES detachment if you don't want to, I can certainly see the value in these Kulturz over DS for certain units. Boyz, for example, perform better as ES than DS. Simalarly, Lootaz perform better as BM than DS.
Well yes totaly agree here, there units that are better as es or bm.
But that overall thinking ds shines just at low rate of fire isn't true.
As in the example a ds dakka jet has extrem nearly the same output than a bm one but has a 6++.
Lootaz alone for bad moon strat are bad in every other faction
flandarz wrote: While I agree that DS is our "best" Kultur, and I wouldn't suggest building a BM or ES detachment if you don't want to, I can certainly see the value in these Kulturz over DS for certain units. Boyz, for example, perform better as ES than DS. Simalarly, Lootaz perform better as BM than DS.
If you can leverage Showin' Off like I stated, Bad Moons is a fine/solid choice. This is realistically Lootas or Tankbustas and I guess a SAG/SSAG. Shoota Boyz its a bit wasted imo, because it's just a lot CP for what's basically just a bunch of Str 4 AP 0. I'd rather bank it for more vital things. I guess you could shoot Burnas twice for the lulz.
Tankbustas are totally fine as Deathskullz, though. Instead of making the TB as a suicide bomb out of the tellyporta (or da jump), you throw them in a vehicle (trukk, battlewagon, big trakk...). Tankbustas are really, really good even without stratagems. Re-roll all hits is even pretty accurate when they are hitting on 6s (hitting ~30% of the time). And trying to keep our units around longer imo is a better way to play.
Boys though? I'm not actually sure. It seems like the main purpose of Evil Suns is for the Da Jump -> charge. I'm not sure this strategy is effective enough anymore in the current meta. Marines have a good toolkit against deep strikers, and frankly, *destroy* boys as they land and in overwatch. They don't really achieve their stated goal -- a bunch of bodies tying gak up. And if TFCs are going off, this deep strike and charge literally cannot work.
I would argue that using Boys as objective campers / holders is probably more useful. It means that TFCs don't bother you as much, as the main flip off is Tremor Shells. As Deathskulls, you can toss in a couple rokkits to the squad and all of a sudden they can threaten vehicles at range, as well maybe take down a Centurion or a couple Primaris. They have a 6++ save, so they are lasting longer, and are less dependent on the KFF to stay alive. This also means they can properly spread out and screen for your more useful units in the back. Combo this with a painboy or Mad Dok, and your Boys can be a lot more resilient for their point cost.
Nobs under DS are also *way* more potent. Re-roll klaw to hit, wound, and damage is massive; Similar with the kill saw.
And if you really, really want to Da Jump -> Charge, you still succeed the charge 58% of time (IE: the majority).
I'm not sure leaning into this one trick is worth it on Boys anymore. I hope people try to shift away from it in more competitive play.
I will say this, though. I think Kommandos have a lot of potential under ES still. Infiltrating for 0 CP and without having to succeed a psychic test is very interesting... you're spending less points on the squad for similar effect (Max of 15 boys). Baiting out Auspex scan on a unit that's ~50% the point cost is better than the 30 man boy squads people usually use.
I think it depends on play style to be honest. I run Evil Sunz exclusively, it's my clan. Even my dakkajets and SSAG are Evil Sunz lol.
It doesn't help for every unit but for some it can be a game changer - Meganobz for example are deceptively quick when they're ES with a warboss knocking around to allow advance and charge. Speedfreek units get +2 movement so they fly around the board. In traditional Green Tide lists Boys can just run up the field with ES. For my money movement is the most important part of the game, if I can exploit that in any way I try to.
An Actual Englishman wrote: I think it depends on play style to be honest. I run Evil Sunz exclusively, it's my clan. Even my dakkajets and SSAG are Evil Sunz lol.
It doesn't help for every unit but for some it can be a game changer - Meganobz for example are deceptively quick when they're ES with a warboss knocking around to allow advance and charge. Speedfreek units get +2 movement so they fly around the board. In traditional Green Tide lists Boys can just run up the field with ES. For my money movement is the most important part of the game, if I can exploit that in any way I try to.
Not a great choice for the SAGMek though.
Movement is definitely important. And playing mono kultur because you like it, no qualms from me (this is all just competitive chat after all).
But I dunno. So say Deff Koptas... is going from 14" to 16" that important? In some situations it might be. Or is it better to improve its shooting, CC, and defensive capabilities? I would wager in more situations, the DS bonuses are gonna win here.
MANz are definitely a good ES option, as the defensive stuff of DS is kind of wasted (6++ doesn't matter at all until AP-5). So you're weighing some re-rolls and ObSec against a better charge threat, and I guess advance + shooting without penalty. I can see the argument here. But as a caveat, advance + charge w/ Deathskulls is still workable. And MANz are often objective campers anyway, so having ObSec is nice.
I don't see it as much with Boys, though. They really benefit from the whole DS package and it seems like the main reason to use them for ES is Da Jump -> Charge. If that isn't as good anymore, what does ES offer you for that unit?
It's important to remember that, while Marines make up a significant portion of the meta, they don't make up ALL of it. So while ES Boyz aren't as good against Marines (and to a lesser extent, Tau), they work wonders against nearly anything else you'll find on the board. Part of making a competitive list is building to be able to handle anything that comes your way. Having a single ES Detachment with some Boyz, MANz, etc. helps in a lot of situations, even if they're lackluster against Marines.
Edit: For example, you could probably build a straight "Marine killer" list right now. But it'd probably get wiped by Eldar Flyers. It's easy to tailor a list to a specific opponent, but much harder to make one that performs well against everyone (unless you're running New-Marines).
flandarz wrote: It's important to remember that, while Marines make up a significant portion of the meta, they don't make up ALL of it. So while ES Boyz aren't as good against Marines (and to a lesser extent, Tau), they work wonders against nearly anything else you'll find on the board. Part of making a competitive list is building to be able to handle anything that comes your way. Having a single ES Detachment with some Boyz, MANz, etc. helps in a lot of situations, even if they're lackluster against Marines.
Edit: For example, you could probably build a straight "Marine killer" list right now. But it'd probably get wiped by Eldar Flyers. It's easy to tailor a list to a specific opponent, but much harder to make one that performs well against everyone (unless you're running New-Marines).
Couldn’t I take kommandos ( or Stormboyz I guess) instead if I just want a unit to deep strike and charge? Seems like they fill that niche well. And no TFCbs. Doesn’t get around auspex scan ( or similar) but you can also overwhelm them with units on T2 or 3.
Bear in mind that that 30 Stormboyz is gonna run ya an extra 60 pts, and Kommandos max out at 20 models (for 160 pts). Basically, you're either investing more points into doing what Boyz can do for cheaper, or you're severely reducing the threat of the unit (no extra attacks for 20+, and less attacks over all). Can they fill the niche? Sure. But they're far less efficient at it.
flandarz wrote: Bear in mind that that 30 Stormboyz is gonna run ya an extra 60 pts, and Kommandos max out at 20 models (for 160 pts). Basically, you're either investing more points into doing what Boyz can do for cheaper, or you're severely reducing the threat of the unit (no extra attacks for 20+, and less attacks over all). Can they fill the niche? Sure. But they're far less efficient at it.
No, I don't think is true.
I don't think we should give two gaks about the +1 attack on Boyz. Each Choppa/Slugga boy already gets 3 attacks; the Nob gets 3 big ones+1 from his choppa. Adding that 4th is overkill against Chaff, and doesn't turn the tide against PEQ. It's only really nice on the Nob, but going to 4 nob attacks isn't going to make the unit amazing.
If I'm fighting against armies with Forewarned / Auspex scan /etc, I'd rather have two 15 man squads, or three 10 man squads (Kommandos are max 15 by the by). I can have them show up and assault the unit at the same time. Imagine I do this PLUS add 2-3 Deff Dreads on the same turn.
They can only counter one portion of the unit I am normally throwing at them. And it doesn't cost me any CP to DS them. I can't do it turn 1, yeah, but 1 unit Da Jumping is going to get wrecked by Scan / Overwatch anyway. And it should be just as effective against other armies.
I don't think you really need a 30 man Stormboy squad to get the same effect as a 30 man Boy Blob.
Well, feel free to give it a try and let me know how it works out for ya, Tulun. Theory crafting is all well and good, but we ain't seeing folks running Stormboyz and Kommandos and using them in the same capacity as Boyz, and I hafta assume these tournament players have given them all a go and determined Boyz were better at the task.
Jidmah wrote: To be honest, I just picked deff skulls over bad moons because I was sick of rolling all the re-rolls
This i will admit is something im leaning on lately.
Its only truly a problem for Boyz and Bikers but....man it takes so long to fish out the 1s, reroll them, fish out the 5/6s, roll DDDs, fish out the extra 1s, reroll them, fish out the remaining 5/6s, then go roll wounding lol.
I almost wish Bad Moonz was just a flat +1 to hit in shooting phase. Yeah it woudl skew things a bit, where -1 to hit would hurt more and some units would get pretty mean hitting on 4s, but....its math is almost the same as DDD+Rerolls anyway and would take SO MUCH LESS TIME lol
I like the DS lore, so I tend to use them. Just lootin' all the stuff all the time. Throw some blue on there and now it's mine.
Freebooterz is also cool lore. Just a bunch of green space pirates going around and being piratey. Selling their services to anyone who can afford it. Good times. I just wish the Kultur was better. A +1 is awful nice until you fight that guy with 3 Knights and nothing else (or a Dread bomb) and you never proc it early enough for it to be useful.
And if you really, really want to Da Jump -> Charge, you still succeed the charge 58% of time (IE: the majority). .
Especially as it\s quite possible the 12" prevention trick becomes more common in future expanding to other factions. Good if you can figure out way to play where that's good support, not key element.
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Jidmah wrote: To be honest, I just picked deff skulls over bad moons because I was sick of rolling all the re-rolls
Always valid reason I was somewhat annoyed when codex came and saw bad moon trait. I would have preferred bonus that's less dice rolling.
New to 8th edition, haven't played since the dark days of Taudar and the Screamerstar in 6th. Built a ton of vehicles to play mech Orks because not interested in moving 150+ boyz around the board again lol.
Wondering if someone can point me to a basic guide on playing mech orks? Don't want to dredge through the 220 page thread! Doesn't need to be the most powerful just good enough to do ok against most stuff - there more to play than to necessarily win all of the games
Today I played against Death Guard with Mortarion, who in my first turn of shooting tanked about 1500 points of mek gunz, random shootas, a kill tank and five supa kannons losing about 3 of 18 wounds (that was *before* he got hit modifier spells on him etc) He proceded to fly around the map being invincible, healing from another daemon and instantly killing anything he got close to lol. Wondering what you guys recommend for taking down big beasties like this!
I also found that my firepower were routinely being stumped by basic nurglings, who took multiple turns of shooting from multiple units to die after invulns and disgustingly resilient. Any tips on facing units with multiple armour saves like this?
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