Dakkamite wrote: New to 8th edition, haven't played since the dark days of Taudar and the Screamerstar in 6th. Built a ton of vehicles to play mech Orks because not interested in moving 150+ boyz around the board again lol.
Wondering if someone can point me to a basic guide on playing mech orks? Don't want to dredge through the 220 page thread! Doesn't need to be the most powerful just good enough to do ok against most stuff - there more to play than to necessarily win all of the games
Today I played against Death Guard with Mortarion, who in my first turn of shooting tanked about 1500 points of mek gunz, random shootas, a kill tank and five supa kannons losing about 3 of 18 wounds (that was *before* he got hit modifier spells on him etc) He proceded to fly around the map being invincible, healing from another daemon and instantly killing anything he got close to lol. Wondering what you guys recommend for taking down big beasties like this!
I also found that my firepower were routinely being stumped by basic nurglings, who took multiple turns of shooting from multiple units to die after invulns and disgustingly resilient. Any tips on racing units with multiple armour saves like this?
Check the first page for info on units. Generally we struggle against units with invulns and Feel no Pain saves though.
Can't really help without more information. What units do you have available, what is your list? It sounds to me like you need more practice games at this point. With more games you'll get a better understanding of which Ork units deals with the DG units well.
And if you really, really want to Da Jump -> Charge, you still succeed the charge 58% of time (IE: the majority). .
Especially as it\s quite possible the 12" prevention trick becomes more common in future expanding to other factions. Good if you can figure out way to play where that's good support, not key element.
This has actually become quite an issue for me - almost all marine players have finished painting up their shadowspear units, and pretty much all of them brings a unit of infiltrators or two along. While they are pretty expensive for what they do, they still reduce the value of deep strike by a lot.
For that reason, I replaced my boyz with Kult of Speed warbikers and Koptas. The first can do just as much tying up as T1 jumped boyz can, and the latter replace boyz you would tellyport in, as - unlike boyz - just having them start on the board is still a good option.
Dakkamite wrote: New to 8th edition, haven't played since the dark days of Taudar and the Screamerstar in 6th. Built a ton of vehicles to play mech Orks because not interested in moving 150+ boyz around the board again lol.
Wondering if someone can point me to a basic guide on playing mech orks? Don't want to dredge through the 220 page thread! Doesn't need to be the most powerful just good enough to do ok against most stuff - there more to play than to necessarily win all of the games
Check the first post, and the goon hammer guide linked there - that's pretty much everything you can know about orks.
Today I played against Death Guard with Mortarion, who in my first turn of shooting tanked about 1500 points of mek gunz, random shootas, a kill tank and five supa kannons losing about 3 of 18 wounds (that was *before* he got hit modifier spells on him etc) He proceded to fly around the map being invincible, healing from another daemon and instantly killing anything he got close to lol. Wondering what you guys recommend for taking down big beasties like this!
As someone playing both orks and DG, the simply solution to killing Mortarion is... don't. A unit of lootas shooting twice and rolling 3s for their shots both times aren't enough to kill him, and pretty much every smasha, SSAG or KMB wound has a 50-50 chance to bounce of the invul and when they don't they do less damage due to DR. For orks, trying to down Mortarion is a gamble, if you lose that gamble (like you did), you just skipped your first shooting phase with nothing to show for it.
The thing is, while Mortarion feels incredibly powerful and seems like he is an invincible monster that slaughters everything, he is not actually a great unit.
He has no force multiplication, his shooting can be ignored (if he shoots at all instead of advancing), his psychic abilities are no bigger than those of a sorcerer and he isn't all that fast and has no quick way to get into combat.
With just 10" movement he is not jumping around the table, once he commits to a side, he stays there. If there is Warptime caster with Mortarion, make sure it dies, no matter the cost. Charge your killaklaw warboss into the sorcerer/daemon prince and use all stratagems at your disposal to make sure it goes down.
If you deploy first or Mortarion is deployed near the center, split your immobile elements to the left and right edge of your deployment zone, and put the stuff that can outrun him in the middle as bait. If you are deploying second and Mortarion is sitting on flank, just put all your immobile stuff like mek guns or lootas on the other flank. Don't worry too much about being out of range, neither DG nor Nurgle Daemons nor the Purge are going to outrange you with anything worth your time - they'll come to you. Be careful to not set yourself up for a first turn charge if there is a nurgle tree involved - it allows Mortarion to advance and charge.
Make sure he never gets the jump on more than one of your units, and put sacrificial units (gretchin, support characters, buggies, koptas, mek guns) exactly where he would end up after moving 10" to force him to move less than his maximum speed. Mortarion kills anything he touches, but he usually has four turns to return the investment of 470 points. If he spends two turns smashing gretchin, a KFF mek, a single mek gun or even just moving, you can beat Mortarion without firing a single shot at him.
Meanwhile, kill everything else and score objective, with Mortarion on the table the rest of the army will be fairly small.
Just don't try to kill PBC, instead bog them down with boyz and make sure they can't fall back.
Orks have a lot less trouble than other armies taking out plague bearers, pox walkers, plague marines and drones than other armies, so focus on what you can kill. If Mortarion is not doing his share, the nurgle player will struggle to kill all your units.
I also found that my firepower were routinely being stumped by basic nurglings, who took multiple turns of shooting from multiple units to die after invulns and disgustingly resilient. Any tips on facing units with multiple armour saves like this?
Yeah, don't shoot nurglings unless you have spare big shoots or similar. Either charge them to kill them, or charge them with gretchin and have the little guys duke it out in an epic deathmatch - you'll have more models most of the time and thus be holding the objective.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tomsug wrote: See the silence of horror? Orks in top 8 on LVO, with 150 boyz. Everybody scared from painting and moving so many boyz
I have just one question - what kind of moving tray does this dude use?
Lucky me got offered an ork army with 120 boyz and 30 storm boyz, all painted
For movement trays, I got the Apoc ones from GW, and think they are working great and are priced fairly, plus they really look nice on any table as they are clear plastic.
Birdsong lost 1 vs RG. 6 out of 8 top 8 are Marines. The only ork lis anywhere top 100 have 120 boyz , no less.
When the meta is trash, you call the trashman.
What I find Interesting is that no Lootas not gunz are in the list. So the whole thing just relay on swarm with bodies the whole board
And if you really, really want to Da Jump -> Charge, you still succeed the charge 58% of time (IE: the majority). .
Especially as it\s quite possible the 12" prevention trick becomes more common in future expanding to other factions. Good if you can figure out way to play where that's good support, not key element.
This has actually become quite an issue for me - almost all marine players have finished painting up their shadowspear units, and pretty much all of them brings a unit of infiltrators or two along. While they are pretty expensive for what they do, they still reduce the value of deep strike by a lot.
For that reason, I replaced my boyz with Kult of Speed warbikers and Koptas. The first can do just as much tying up as T1 jumped boyz can, and the latter replace boyz you would tellyport in, as - unlike boyz - just having them start on the board is still a good option.
Yeh haven't played vs those with orks but with necrons and sisters that 12" has already been issue. So i can see value of relying on ds boyz diminishing. Imagine then if eldar or chaos gets their hand on such? Or tau? I find eldars infuriating to ds against already with all the wave serpents, warwalkers, flyers etc making finding effective spot nightmare
Dakkamite wrote: New to 8th edition, haven't played since the dark days of Taudar and the Screamerstar in 6th. Built a ton of vehicles to play mech Orks because not interested in moving 150+ boyz around the board again lol.
Wondering if someone can point me to a basic guide on playing mech orks? Don't want to dredge through the 220 page thread! Doesn't need to be the most powerful just good enough to do ok against most stuff - there more to play than to necessarily win all of the games
Today I played against Death Guard with Mortarion, who in my first turn of shooting tanked about 1500 points of mek gunz, random shootas, a kill tank and five supa kannons losing about 3 of 18 wounds (that was *before* he got hit modifier spells on him etc) He proceded to fly around the map being invincible, healing from another daemon and instantly killing anything he got close to lol. Wondering what you guys recommend for taking down big beasties like this!
I also found that my firepower were routinely being stumped by basic nurglings, who took multiple turns of shooting from multiple units to die after invulns and disgustingly resilient. Any tips on facing units with multiple armour saves like this?
Same happened to me earlier against Magnus and LoC, I lost first turn, so magnus was -1 to hit and 3+ invul, LoC 3+ invul, I killed LoC but magnus lost like 4 wounds in 5 rounds of battle.
Next time I lose first turn, I'll focus my fire into his army and feth him
im not against painting that many figures im just against fielding nearly 200 models.
Boyz get to a point of the game is extremely dull because with that many there isnt really any tactical thought, just slog forward and hope rolls are in your favor before you charge. The only real choices are which unit gets Da Jumped if you have the weirdboy still and if you can Green Tide a unit back.
Its boring. Even in 7th when boy spam was really all we had i avoided doing it because it was so boring.
An army of 150 bodies + 50 or 60 (maybe more) grots and characters is unplayable in a local tournament (and sometimes not only local), usually you must play 3 or 4 matches in the same day, with a clock.
I see it strong in big tournaments cuz people only play to win at all cost, but i don't see it available in another scenario (like local tournaments where you have a very limited amount of time per battle)
As I told earlier, I'm talking about ITC rules, and 1'15'' is not 1'30'', it must be said.
On the other hand, this is what I found at the time I checked the rules.
We will be using the ITC Chess Clock Rules. Starting day 2, January 25th, players with an undefeated record will be required to use a Chess Clock. All other players on any day of the event will use a Chess Clock for their game if either player wishes to use one. Frontline Gaming will provide Chess Clocks while supplies last. We recommend players bring their own if they wish to be assured access to one.
I would like to see how horde orks plays against marines in 1:30 and win
Yeh haven't played vs those with orks but with necrons and sisters that 12" has already been issue. So i can see value of relying on ds boyz diminishing. Imagine then if eldar or chaos gets their hand on such? Or tau? I find eldars infuriating to ds against already with all the wave serpents, warwalkers, flyers etc making finding effective spot nightmare
My sparring partner is CWE, and believe me, Forewarned is *plenty* already. If they could limit even further where we place, it would be pointless.
But yeah, but that's exactly it. If the limit of boys usefulness is their ability to be magically teleported forward, and armies seem to be developing more defences against that, it seems a bit pointless.
Why it seems like Warbikers are better (they can start on the board and charge over 40" with Kult of speed), or Stormboys (can move 18 or 20" if ES guaranteed and charge after with a nearby warboss, can deep strike, and be Da Jumped if need be). If I strictly need a deepstrke -> charger, it seems like Kommandos fill this better because i can build it to get around tech too.
It seems generally the consensus here is pushing towards mech anyway, not boy hordes.
I think the block I will approximately try next game will be like:
Deathskulls
Two 20 man Boy Squads (2 Rokkits, Nob w/ Killsaw)
KFF Mek
Mad Dok
Biker boss (almost always take this, but just worth including).
Under both auras in shooting, I shrug off wounds 45% of the time, 30% of the time in CC w/ painboy.
The intention being they try to be a semi-tanky hold on objectives near my deployment zone, or even push in if the opportunity allows into the centre / the edge of their zone. At worst, they'll screen for my backline buggies, Big Trakk, Tankbustas (etc).
I'm really interested if it'll be remotely effective.
Vineheart01 wrote: Dakkajets fire 18 (6x3 shooting guns) at S6 AP1 1D that hit on 4s if they dont splitfire.
Sometimes they plink off armor due to that AP1 and sometimes they just slaughter things for me. I love them.
im terrible at dice math i just know approximates i can expect. Factoring in DDD or rerolls throws that approximate out of whack lol
Alright.
18 shots (Bad Moonz)
9 hits plus 3 rerolls plus 3 extra shots nets you...
9+1.5+1.75=12.25 hits
3+ to-wound gets you 8.17 wounds
18 shots (Deffskullz)
9 hits plus 1 reroll plus 3 extra shots nets you...
9+.5+1.5=11 hits
3+ to-wound nets you 7.33, plus 1 reroll gets you an extra .67 wounds, for 8 total wounds
They are really close.
The problem with Bad Moons is that reroll 1s is GREAT for Space Marines or other factions that hit on 3+ and have a plethora of 2+ to hit where "Reroll 1s" basically becomes re-roll ALL or 50% of your misses.
12 Bolt shots = 8 hits
With Reroll 1s its 9.3ish
12 Shoota shots = 4 hits
with reroll 1s its 4.66, so at best you have a 2/3rd chance to get 1 extra hit, not exactly stellar.
For Orkz to benefit from what is essentially a 50% reroll misses for SM's Orkz would need reroll 1s and 2s. And realistically, since ork shooting is so piss poor to begin with, and we have no aura's to benefit shooting Bad Moons should get reroll ALL misses. 12 shots go from 4.66 hits to 6.6
that pretty much stems into a response post i put towards Bell of Lost Souls article talking about "long range weapons are killing 40k"
No, its mass RoF with any form of AP or extra damage hitting on 2s or 3s with super easy access to rerolls thats the issue. In a game based on D6's rerolls should be difficult to get, where maybe 1-2 units actually get any at all in a 2k list, not the entire damn army. Especially in an edition they just doubled the average RoF in since twinlinked is now 2x guns rather than "that gun rerolls" - i was rather annoyed to see they did that and gave all imperials super easy access to rerolls anyway.
Emicrania wrote: Birdsong lost 1 vs RG. 6 out of 8 top 8 are Marines. The only ork lis anywhere top 100 have 120 boyz , no less.
When the meta is trash, you call the trashman.
What I find Interesting is that no Lootas not gunz are in the list. So the whole thing just relay on swarm with bodies the whole board
It seems boring to play.
I'm not surprised about Lootas or Mek Guns, though. Lootas don't pull their weight against marines (stealthy freaking sucks). And Mek guns have always been pretty bad for Kill Points / Kill more, no? I imagine it's even worse with marines just getting so much more killy.
I imagine it's even more stupid with all of these character dreadnaughts too. "I have a bunch of smashas to destroy your vehicles!" "Actually, all of my awesome vehicles are characters, you can't target them and they'll get free KP off your mek guns".
I dunno why Dreadnaughts get character protection. Fuckin bananas.
Re Bad Moons: the clan trait is actually super mediocre. It just happens to be better than Goffs, Freebootas, Blood Axes, and Snakebites. The only reason BM has ever been good is showin' off. If they lost that stratagem or other clans gained access to it, I guarantee Bad Moons would fall off a cliff.
As someone playing both orks and DG, the simply solution to killing Mortarion is... don't. A unit of lootas shooting twice and rolling 3s for their shots both times aren't enough to kill him, and pretty much every smasha, SSAG or KMB wound has a 50-50 chance to bounce of the invul and when they don't they do less damage due to DR. For orks, trying to down Mortarion is a gamble, if you lose that gamble (like you did), you just skipped your first shooting phase with nothing to show for it.
The thing is, while Mortarion feels incredibly powerful and seems like he is an invincible monster that slaughters everything, he is not actually a great unit.
He has no force multiplication, his shooting can be ignored (if he shoots at all instead of advancing), his psychic abilities are no bigger than those of a sorcerer and he isn't all that fast and has no quick way to get into combat.
With just 10" movement he is not jumping around the table, once he commits to a side, he stays there. If there is Warptime caster with Mortarion, make sure it dies, no matter the cost. Charge your killaklaw warboss into the sorcerer/daemon prince and use all stratagems at your disposal to make sure it goes down.
If you deploy first or Mortarion is deployed near the center, split your immobile elements to the left and right edge of your deployment zone, and put the stuff that can outrun him in the middle as bait. If you are deploying second and Mortarion is sitting on flank, just put all your immobile stuff like mek guns or lootas on the other flank. Don't worry too much about being out of range, neither DG nor Nurgle Daemons nor the Purge are going to outrange you with anything worth your time - they'll come to you. Be careful to not set yourself up for a first turn charge if there is a nurgle tree involved - it allows Mortarion to advance and charge.
Make sure he never gets the jump on more than one of your units, and put sacrificial units (gretchin, support characters, buggies, koptas, mek guns) exactly where he would end up after moving 10" to force him to move less than his maximum speed. Mortarion kills anything he touches, but he usually has four turns to return the investment of 470 points. If he spends two turns smashing gretchin, a KFF mek, a single mek gun or even just moving, you can beat Mortarion without firing a single shot at him.
Meanwhile, kill everything else and score objective, with Mortarion on the table the rest of the army will be fairly small.
Just don't try to kill PBC, instead bog them down with boyz and make sure they can't fall back.
Orks have a lot less trouble than other armies taking out plague bearers, pox walkers, plague marines and drones than other armies, so focus on what you can kill. If Mortarion is not doing his share, the nurgle player will struggle to kill all your units.
I also found that my firepower were routinely being stumped by basic nurglings, who took multiple turns of shooting from multiple units to die after invulns and disgustingly resilient. Any tips on facing units with multiple armour saves like this?
Yeah, don't shoot nurglings unless you have spare big shoots or similar. Either charge them to kill them, or charge them with gretchin and have the little guys duke it out in an epic deathmatch - you'll have more models most of the time and thus be holding the objective.
Yeah I figured on the leave him alone thing. I've only had two games since I started playing again so not really up to scratch on how tough things are with lke 18 wounds. After my first turn I didn't shoot at him again except with random guns that had no other target. I did try fight him with 20 boyz, mega boss and a battlewagon and he ate all of them in one turn lol. I found that other than Nurglings which took stupid amounts of shooting and the invulnerable mortarion everything else I shot at tended to take at least ok amounts of damage.
Check the first page for info on units. Generally we struggle against units with invulns and Feel no Pain saves though.
Can't really help without more information. What units do you have available, what is your list? It sounds to me like you need more practice games at this point. With more games you'll get a better understanding of which Ork units deals with the DG units well.
Have access to most things except the new buggies and any aircraft. Had plenty of practice building whatever I need thats why I like Orks lol
Play with 150 boyz fast is not a problem. I have a metal moving trays with the stick in the midle and all boyz magnetized. It' s a metal plate for 5 25 or 32mm bases. I bring the units like this to the table and deplou and move very very fast.
Any information about the “pure buggies” list? I don' t see the guy in top 100.
I played a fun list of shooty orkz vs Chaos (Khorne) Marines. He brought 2 squads of zerkers in rhinos, 2 Hell Chickens, 2 Demolishers and a couple of other things.
In response I brought a SSAG Big Mek, Warboss on bike with relic klaw, 10 lootas, 8 Mek Guns (5 Traktor and 3 Smasha) 3 Scrapjets 2 Weirdboyz, 60 grotz in 10 man squads for troops and 9 DeffKoptas in 4 units of 2 and a lone kopta (All twin rokkitz)
I was running a completely Freeboota army and it was hilarious, he went first and iced 2 of my Mek gunz and 4ish of my Koptas but on my turn I leveled his army, taking out 1 turkey, both demolishers a hell brute and killing an infantry squad which is what triggered the +1 to hit for my entire army.
I have to be honest, I was floored with how good they performed with that +1 to hit, the biggest issue I ran into was durability. Once my opponent realized what to kill, those things started dying quickly. the Scrapjets did okish, their guns are just too unreliable still. Ironically, I never once hit with a wing missile even though they were 3+ to hit because of the +1 and the +1 for targeting vehicles, and the Rokkit Kannon was just swingy as hell,one turn they killed a demolisher, the next they failed to kill an infantry squad in the open.
next game I am going to try out the Deffskullz, but I can't see them doing much better then my army did this time.
In response I brought a SSAG Big Mek, Warboss on bike with relic klaw, 10 lootas, 8 Mek Guns (5 Traktor and 3 Smasha) 3 Scrapjets 2 Weirdboyz, 60 grotz in 10 man squads for troops and 9 DeffKoptas in 4 units of 2 and a lone kopta (All twin rokkitz)
You don't have rule of 3 in use? If so why even 2 strong squads? 9 deff koptas in solo squadrons would be lot better.
That doesn't matter. Rule Of Three is where you can have a max of three datasheets of the same type across your entire army at 2k points. (Excepting Dedicated Transports and Troops.)
Issue isn't number of detachments but number of datasheets you use. 4+1=5 and pretty sure that's more than 3 and even goes beyond 4 which you can use in bigger games. You are limited in # of detachments and # of datasheets you use. However # of detachments doesn't alter # of datasheets you can use. With RO3 you can use max 3 datasheets(aka different units). Doesn't matter if 2 is on det 1 and 2 is det 2. It's still more than 3 datasheets.
Tomsug wrote: Play with 150 boyz fast is not a problem. I have a metal moving trays with the stick in the midle and all boyz magnetized. It' s a metal plate for 5 25 or 32mm bases. I bring the units like this to the table and deplou and move very very fast.
Any information about the “pure buggies” list? I don' t see the guy in top 100.
From Frontline Gaming-
"Table 253 – Podcast Favorite Chris Fischer vs Tyler Hautaniemi: Chris beautiful Ork buggies unfortunately lose the first turn and mostly get shot off the board."
im kinda wondering how baller the damage rolls against those buggies...
Yeah T6 8W 4+ isnt that tough to crack but....there were 20 of individual units with that statline so you had to watch it about overkilling and wasting shots.
Honestly the buggies and bikes (and trukks) need a buff that grants them -1 to hit if they move 10 or more... they are just to squishy on the table. unfortunately this won’t help any of the dreads but they need their own fix.
gungo wrote: Honestly the buggies and bikes (and trukks) need a buff that grants them -1 to hit if they move 10 or more... they are just to squishy on the table. unfortunately this won’t help any of the dreads but they need their own fix.
Wouldn't have actually helped. Bonus that depends on moving doesn't help when you go 2nd which was biggest issue for this list. If it went first it had potential to basically delete core of enemy army in one go.
GreenTidePackers wrote: Is anyone able to post Anthony Birdsong's list? for some reason, he's like the only list that won't load for me on BCP lmao.
120 boyz
110 grots
3 SAG 2 weirboy
Warboss
Runtherd
Mad Dok
hopefully we can actually have some tactical flavor and flexibility come march, our PA + (hopefully) some nerf so marines. But yeah, that list looks boring as gak, same with poole's.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Our answer to the worst diversified meta of anytimes is ... MORE boyz
Watched good part of the match on Warhammer TV.
Sean had turn 1. With quicken and path of twilight he advanced fast, punched a hole in the screen and killed SSAG warlord and SAG.
From then Jeff had a hard time to remove those threats and was hardly able to leave his deployment zone.
Not sure if they made it into turn 3 till they clocked out.
Kudos to Sean. He knew exactly what his army was capable of.
Ioldar wrote: Watched good part of the match on Warhammer TV.
Sean had turn 1. With quicken and path of twilight he advanced fast, punched a hole in the screen and killed SSAG warlord and SAG.
From then Jeff had a hard time to remove those threats and was hardly able to leave his deployment zone.
Not sure if they made it into turn 3 till they clocked out.
Kudos to Sean. He knew exactly what his army was capable of.
The turn 1 took like 2 hours and ended up with both sides decimated. Had they been able to play to natural end orks could have won as not much of army left for eldar but eldar likely knew game would run out of time first so alpha striked enough vp's to win.
tulun wrote: Trevor Harris at 29th has 1 unit of boys.
And Dustin has no SAG? What? Where did he place?
According to BCP he came in 58th with 5 wins and 1 loss. Struggling to pull up the actual lists of his opponents right now.
Opponent Outcome Army
Chris Drawbond W Adeptus Mechanicus
Arron Aleong L Adeptus Astartes
Jared Parker W Imperium
Zachary Wilson W Drukhari
Ken Onyeabor W Tyranids
BamBam Hunter W Adeptus Astartes
He plays at the store I normally go to, I can ask him what his strategy was and report back if he responds.
tulun wrote: Trevor Harris at 29th has 1 unit of boys.
And Dustin has no SAG? What? Where did he place?
According to BCP he came in 58th with 5 wins and 1 loss. Struggling to pull up the actual lists of his opponents right now.
Opponent Outcome Army
Chris Drawbond W Adeptus Mechanicus
Arron Aleong L Adeptus Astartes
Jared Parker W Imperium
Zachary Wilson W Drukhari
Ken Onyeabor W Tyranids
BamBam Hunter W Adeptus Astartes
He plays at the store I normally go to, I can ask him what his strategy was and report back if he responds.
I’m sure that’ll be interesting. At a glance, it looks like he mobs a bunch of boys then has the option to fallback and charge with his warlord trait.
Just shocked he didn’t take at least an SSAG. I get maybe trimming the other 2...
tulun wrote: Trevor Harris at 29th has 1 unit of boys.
And Dustin has no SAG? What? Where did he place?
According to BCP he came in 58th with 5 wins and 1 loss. Struggling to pull up the actual lists of his opponents right now.
Opponent Outcome Army
Chris Drawbond W Adeptus Mechanicus
Arron Aleong L Adeptus Astartes
Jared Parker W Imperium
Zachary Wilson W Drukhari
Ken Onyeabor W Tyranids
BamBam Hunter W Adeptus Astartes
He plays at the store I normally go to, I can ask him what his strategy was and report back if he responds.
I’m sure that’ll be interesting. At a glance, it looks like he mobs a bunch of boys then has the option to fallback and charge with his warlord trait.
Just shocked he didn’t take at least an SSAG. I get maybe trimming the other 2...
Probably just thought it wasn't worth it since both detachments were Evil Sunz, not having the rerolls just make it too unreliable.
Probably just thought it wasn't worth it since both detachments were Evil Sunz, not having the rerolls just make it too unreliable.
Honestly I wish we could crunch the numbers on this one.
The SSAG on Deathskulls is definitely best-skulls... but it's so hard to say how much better. SSAG is just so swingy no matter what lol. You roll 11 strength and 10-12 shots as Evil suns, you should be laughin'.
man... that buggie list, the hero we need! il ove the models and have several of each. would love GW to look at that and decide to make them actually good. GW "here you anted new buggies, have a bunch of amazing models" ork players "oo new buggies will they be competitive" GW "we gave you your models be happy with it and buy them"
Probably just thought it wasn't worth it since both detachments were Evil Sunz, not having the rerolls just make it too unreliable.
Honestly I wish we could crunch the numbers on this one.
The SSAG on Deathskulls is definitely best-skulls... but it's so hard to say how much better. SSAG is just so swingy no matter what lol. You roll 11 strength and 10-12 shots as Evil suns, you should be laughin'.
Want to define some target practices and what kind of odds you would like? What % you get >X wounds etc? I could crunch it out tomorrow if desired numbers are given.
gungo wrote: Honestly the buggies and bikes (and trukks) need a buff that grants them -1 to hit if they move 10 or more... they are just to squishy on the table. unfortunately this won’t help any of the dreads but they need their own fix.
Wouldn't have actually helped. Bonus that depends on moving doesn't help when you go 2nd which was biggest issue for this list. If it went first it had potential to basically delete core of enemy army in one go.
Agh you’re right ok buggies bikes and trukks just need a speed freak -1 to hit detachment buff.
I essentially got my second Naut, so Mork and Gork are now battle ready. To keep it thematic I also have 3 deff dreads and 6 kill kans, along with a mek with shokk.
Torn between going dread ham or putting 3 meganobz in one, boss and nobs in the other and rushing.
I don't expect either to end particularly well... but it seems fun.
you make it sound like the rules are going away. Theyre being updated not removed, they just announced that its happening ahead of time because FW books rarely get reprinted
Go to about 1:50 in the video and it shows up, it looks pretty sweet from what I can see although it is just a Facebook video unfortunately. If there are better pictures I'd love to see them.
Go to about 1:50 in the video and it shows up, it looks pretty sweet from what I can see although it is just a Facebook video unfortunately. If there are better pictures I'd love to see them.
Thanks!
From the video, it seems like many people had heard of/knew about this army before. Does Chris Fisher frequent the tournament scene/does he have a website or podcast? Or was he just appreciated/highlighted because of such a unique list? Does anyone know?
Want to define some target practices and what kind of odds you would like? What % you get >X wounds etc? I could crunch it out tomorrow if desired numbers are given.
The interesting bits would be around the average, I guess (because it's so wildly variant). It would probably be most useful if we could, say, calculate if Deathskulls was 20% better than neutral (Evil Suns, etc) or Bad Moons (some # of rerolls).
Assume T6, T7, T8, 5+ invul or not?
I hear the monte carlo on this is kind of beyond nuts, though.
Want to define some target practices and what kind of odds you would like? What % you get >X wounds etc? I could crunch it out tomorrow if desired numbers are given.
The interesting bits would be around the average, I guess (because it's so wildly variant). It would probably be most useful if we could, say, calculate if Deathskulls was 20% better than neutral (Evil Suns, etc) or Bad Moons (some # of rerolls).
Assume T6, T7, T8, 5+ invul or not?
I hear the monte carlo on this is kind of beyond nuts, though.
Well T7(12 wounds) and T8(24 wounds) with couple damage bracket chances. Average damage takes dent but even more so chance of one shotting stuff.
Spoiler:
(note if I go over target wounds I cap damage to max wounds. Ergo if result is 60 damage vs 12 wound model it doesn't count for average 60 damage but 12).
T8, 24 wounds(like baneblade), deathskulll
average damage:11.9825
average one shots:18.39%
couple damage brackets.
more than 16:32.55%
12-16:14.86%
8-11:16.41%
less than 4:22.36%
Evil sun:
average damage:8.1938
average one shots:8.07%
more than 16:17.09%
12-16:11.93%
8-11:14.36%
less than 4:39.37%
Add 5++:
Evil sun:
Death skull:
average damage:8.8322
average one shots:8.68%
more than 16:18.4%
12-16:13.23%
8-11:16.6%
less than 4:34.8%
average damage:5.8055
average one shots:3.55%
more than 16:8.27%
12-16:8.98%
8-11:12.94%
less than 4:51.98%
T7, 12W, no inv:
Deathskull
average damage:8.767
average one shots:52.12%
8-11:15.32%
less than 4:19.46%
evil sun:
average damage:6.8152
average one shots:32.71%
8-11:15.58%
less than 4:35.57%
5++:
deathskull:
average damage:7.3059
average one shots:36.07%
8-11:17.19%
less than 4:30.66%
Evil sun:
average damage:5.2863
average one shots:20.23%
8-11:13.48%
less than 4:48.05%
Want to define some target practices and what kind of odds you would like? What % you get >X wounds etc? I could crunch it out tomorrow if desired numbers are given.
The interesting bits would be around the average, I guess (because it's so wildly variant). It would probably be most useful if we could, say, calculate if Deathskulls was 20% better than neutral (Evil Suns, etc) or Bad Moons (some # of rerolls).
Assume T6, T7, T8, 5+ invul or not?
I hear the monte carlo on this is kind of beyond nuts, though.
Well T7(12 wounds) and T8(24 wounds) with couple damage bracket chances. Average damage takes dent but even more so chance of one shotting stuff.
Spoiler:
(note if I go over target wounds I cap damage to max wounds. Ergo if result is 60 damage vs 12 wound model it doesn't count for average 60 damage but 12).
T8, 24 wounds(like baneblade), deathskulll
average damage:11.9825
average one shots:18.39%
couple damage brackets.
more than 16:32.55%
12-16:14.86%
8-11:16.41%
less than 4:22.36%
Evil sun:
average damage:8.1938
average one shots:8.07%
more than 16:17.09%
12-16:11.93%
8-11:14.36%
less than 4:39.37%
Add 5++:
Evil sun:
Death skull:
average damage:8.8322
average one shots:8.68%
more than 16:18.4%
12-16:13.23%
8-11:16.6%
less than 4:34.8%
average damage:5.8055
average one shots:3.55%
more than 16:8.27%
12-16:8.98%
8-11:12.94%
less than 4:51.98%
T7, 12W, no inv:
Deathskull
average damage:8.767
average one shots:52.12%
8-11:15.32%
less than 4:19.46%
evil sun:
average damage:6.8152
average one shots:32.71%
8-11:15.58%
less than 4:35.57%
5++:
deathskull:
average damage:7.3059
average one shots:36.07%
8-11:17.19%
less than 4:30.66%
Evil sun:
average damage:5.2863
average one shots:20.23%
8-11:13.48%
less than 4:48.05%
These numbers seem really high to me... Just iterating the expectations gives a little over 6 wounds on average for Deathskulls vs T8 with no invul. You're only averaging three hits even with Deathskulls reroll. How'd you arrive at these numbers?
Go through whole attack sequence 10,000 times, mark down how much damage you did, divide by 10,000.
Roll for 2d6 attacks, for each roll to hit, reroll one if needed if deathskull, roll for each hit to wound, roll for save, roll for damage. If S exceeds requirement roll for mortal wounds.
After getting total damage check if over target unit wound count and if over clip to that value and add one for one shot counter(also add to counter for wound bracket if applicable).
Sorry mate, if this is just one turn then I think you need to check your implementation, these numbers are way too high. Both for average damage and chance to one shot. How are you running your code?
tneva82 wrote: Go through whole attack sequence 10,000 times, mark down how much damage you did, divide by 10,000.
Roll for 2d6 attacks, for each roll to hit, reroll one if needed if deathskull, roll for each hit to wound, roll for save, roll for damage. If S exceeds requirement roll for mortal wounds.
After getting total damage check if over target unit wound count and if over clip to that value and add one for one shot counter(also add to counter for wound bracket if applicable).
As I pointed out before, a simulation of 10.000 is not large enough for the SSAG. Even if a SSAG gave off just two shots instead of 2d6 shots, you are looking at over 60 million possible combination of rolls. IIRC I calculated the exact number somewhere before and it's gigantic. At 10000 you probably haven't even hit any specific set of results twice.
So you need to have your simulation run for a couple of weeks or so, the numbers you produce currently are not reliable.
As I pointed out before, a simulation of 10.000 is not large enough for the SSAG. Even if a SSAG gave off just two shots instead of 2d6 shots, you are looking at over 60 million possible combination of rolls. IIRC I calculated the exact number somewhere before and it's gigantic. At 10000 you probably haven't even hit any specific set of results twice.
So you need to have your simulation run for a couple of weeks or so, the numbers you produce currently are not reliable.
Strictly speaking, using a simulation of random events from a system can be concluded when the output of repeated simulations begins to stabalise. This can be very many magnitudes of simulation runs lower than actual testable scenarios, but still representative of a full test. There is alot more about this under discrete-event simulation, I've been delving recently into it at work, its quite fascinating.
Because defense is for the weak?! Because his massive balls would protect him from any turn 1 shenanigans?!
Truly a hero. 3-3 as well. What a champ.
Well adding 1-2 Wazboms would be very fitting for the list, considering how insanely fast they go. Makes you wonder if he would have been less susceptible to not getting first turn if he had.
Want to define some target practices and what kind of odds you would like? What % you get >X wounds etc? I could crunch it out tomorrow if desired numbers are given.
The interesting bits would be around the average, I guess (because it's so wildly variant). It would probably be most useful if we could, say, calculate if Deathskulls was 20% better than neutral (Evil Suns, etc) or Bad Moons (some # of rerolls).
Assume T6, T7, T8, 5+ invul or not?
I hear the monte carlo on this is kind of beyond nuts, though.
Well T7(12 wounds) and T8(24 wounds) with couple damage bracket chances. Average damage takes dent but even more so chance of one shotting stuff.
Spoiler:
(note if I go over target wounds I cap damage to max wounds. Ergo if result is 60 damage vs 12 wound model it doesn't count for average 60 damage but 12).
T8, 24 wounds(like baneblade), deathskulll
average damage:11.9825
average one shots:18.39%
couple damage brackets.
more than 16:32.55%
12-16:14.86%
8-11:16.41%
less than 4:22.36%
Evil sun:
average damage:8.1938
average one shots:8.07%
more than 16:17.09%
12-16:11.93%
8-11:14.36%
less than 4:39.37%
Add 5++:
Evil sun:
Death skull:
average damage:8.8322
average one shots:8.68%
more than 16:18.4%
12-16:13.23%
8-11:16.6%
less than 4:34.8%
average damage:5.8055
average one shots:3.55%
more than 16:8.27%
12-16:8.98%
8-11:12.94%
less than 4:51.98%
T7, 12W, no inv:
Deathskull
average damage:8.767
average one shots:52.12%
8-11:15.32%
less than 4:19.46%
evil sun:
average damage:6.8152
average one shots:32.71%
8-11:15.58%
less than 4:35.57%
5++:
deathskull:
average damage:7.3059
average one shots:36.07%
8-11:17.19%
less than 4:30.66%
Evil sun:
average damage:5.2863
average one shots:20.23%
8-11:13.48%
less than 4:48.05%
So, this didn't sound right. I ran my own version of this, also 10000 observations. Includes Deffskullz rerolls on 1 miss, 1 wound, and 1 damage roll of 1 or 2 if there was one. Includes mortal wounds on Str of 11 or 12, and I assumed a T8 target with no armor save.
EDIT: Flubbed some code on the mortal wounds, so I gave it another shot, this time with 1 million. Original 10k results with error behind the spoiler for transparency: EDIT2: Ugh, and now I'm rolling d6 damage for each mortal wound. That's not right either. Math is hard. I'll fix it later.
Average damage = 9.02 (raw values, so that one time I got 177(?!) damage is included)
Chance to 1-shot a baneblade = 7.45%
tneva82 wrote: Go through whole attack sequence 10,000 times, mark down how much damage you did, divide by 10,000.
Roll for 2d6 attacks, for each roll to hit, reroll one if needed if deathskull, roll for each hit to wound, roll for save, roll for damage. If S exceeds requirement roll for mortal wounds.
After getting total damage check if over target unit wound count and if over clip to that value and add one for one shot counter(also add to counter for wound bracket if applicable).
As I pointed out before, a simulation of 10.000 is not large enough for the SSAG. Even if a SSAG gave off just two shots instead of 2d6 shots, you are looking at over 60 million possible combination of rolls. IIRC I calculated the exact number somewhere before and it's gigantic. At 10000 you probably haven't even hit any specific set of results twice.
So you need to have your simulation run for a couple of weeks or so, the numbers you produce currently are not reliable.
This isn't right either, sixty million possibilities is a trivial number from a simulation perspective for one thing and 10,000 runs should be more than enough to get a reasonable average if the implementation is correct.
You can get a decent back of the napkin expectation just doing (avg number of shots)x(probability to hit)x(probability to wound given average strength)x(average damage roll) if all you want is to know the expected damage output.
If you really want to simulate it I wouldn't bother doing monte carlo, just evaluate all the outcomes. It's probably easier to evaluate the probabilities though. Even a simulation with millions of points won't take a week...more than a second or two is probably a sign your computer is running slow.
Thayme wrote: These were posted in the Ork Facebook group
So much space on these boards
I don't think I've ever had enough room to charge something with four buggies.
Twenty buggies looks amazing. I've only got nine but this inspires me to get more of them and take them tourneys (with a SSAG and Wazbom-blastajet for support). Don't see tables this open often though. Which explains why he scored 3 wins. With terrain clogged tables a buggylist is almost unplayable.
Thayme wrote: These were posted in the Ork Facebook group
I’m sorry but seeing those pictures makes my inner mekboy Every single one built exactly the same and painted exactly the same, he should be ashamed That man is no Hero, He is a Codex User.
ORKS DON’T BUILD CARBON COPYS it’s fine to build one of each buggy to the directions, but you damn well convert the second and third ones
Thayme wrote: These were posted in the Ork Facebook group
I’m sorry but seeing those pictures makes my inner mekboy Every single one built exactly the same and painted exactly the same, he should be ashamed That man is no Hero, He is a Codex User.
ORKS DON’T BUILD CARBON COPYS it’s fine to build one of each buggy to the directions, but you damn well convert the second and third ones
Thayme wrote: These were posted in the Ork Facebook group
I’m sorry but seeing those pictures makes my inner mekboy Every single one built exactly the same and painted exactly the same, he should be ashamed That man is no Hero, He is a Codex User.
ORKS DON’T BUILD CARBON COPYS it’s fine to build one of each buggy to the directions, but you damn well convert the second and third ones
Except when you go to the top competitive event in the world, where you are pretty much expected to use GW's models.
Thayme wrote: These were posted in the Ork Facebook group
I’m sorry but seeing those pictures makes my inner mekboy Every single one built exactly the same and painted exactly the same, he should be ashamed That man is no Hero, He is a Codex User.
ORKS DON’T BUILD CARBON COPYS it’s fine to build one of each buggy to the directions, but you damn well convert the second and third ones
His hobby, his rules. If he wants 6 identical Megatrakk Scrapjets power to him.
On a related note: has anyone kitbashed a Chinork? They seem like they’d be fun to play.
I have a Trukk and two Deff Kopta set aside to produce a Chinork. Plan to remove chassis and cockpit panel from Trukk; invert side panels to give the Chinork ‘wings’,; cover over the driver seats and attach a Deff Kopta rear to the Trukk engine. Second Kopta attaches to the Trukk rear, add skids etc and profit. Obviously have to extend the rear rotors.
Putting money where mouth is. Donor vehicles come painted from t'bay, method differed in production (cab area moved to rear to mount engine), still to find the rear rotor (grrr).
On a related note: has anyone kitbashed a Chinork? They seem like they’d be fun to play.
I have a Trukk and two Deff Kopta set aside to produce a Chinork. Plan to remove chassis and cockpit panel from Trukk; invert side panels to give the Chinork ‘wings’,; cover over the driver seats and attach a Deff Kopta rear to the Trukk engine. Second Kopta attaches to the Trukk rear, add skids etc and profit. Obviously have to extend the rear rotors.
Thayme wrote: These were posted in the Ork Facebook group
I’m sorry but seeing those pictures makes my inner mekboy Every single one built exactly the same and painted exactly the same, he should be ashamed That man is no Hero, He is a Codex User.
ORKS DON’T BUILD CARBON COPYS it’s fine to build one of each buggy to the directions, but you damn well convert the second and third ones
Except when you go to the top competitive event in the world, where you are pretty much expected to use GW's models.
Any proof of that, or are we just throwing around baseless accusations?
I do add variety to nearly every model I have within reason. All my boys I bought third party weapon arms from spell crow and used bits box for different heads and arms including some old gorka morka weapon arms. I bought the forgeworld kommando upgrade kit. Switched driver side of trukks plus the enclosed cab and the half trakk trukk version. Instead of the same weirdboy I used the shaman from AoS. Mekguns and dreads which are heavily magnetized so I can switch between weapon options and the guns all I could do is add ork swag bits or glue a different gunner onto the side podium and maybe slight painting changes. Deff dreads have different face plates. Battlewagon is heavily magnetized and isn’t painted yet.... mega armor boyz and stormboys have a ton of bits and combos to differentiate them apart within reason. I got to 20 stormboys before I ran out of combos. Bikes I used the forgeworld nobs biker upgrade plus different weapon arms. For specialist troops like burnas and lootas you run into lack of combination issues after 15 models. So I stopped there. Kromlech has an awesome painboy alt I used for bits. I heavily magnetized my planes to be either dakka burna or blitsa bombers. I need to pick up a new wazbom version and see how many versions I can magnetize it into. I guess my point is unlike dkok my other army orks have a lot of option for variety to a degree. I just picked up 3 buggies from a store clearance closing so I don’t have the experience with the kits yet but you can do a lot of variety. Doubtfully as many as this guy had made.
I'd probably just straight up mimic Jeff Poole's Ork list. The only thing Id say is that this looks exactly like the previous lists Orks fielded before marines showed up, swapping Lootas for Gits.
I think you should drop the gits (as much as I like Flash Gitz) add another unit of Boys and Mad Dok, if you wanna go all in on the style they seemed to be piloting. Jeff had 4 units of boys and just maxed out the Tankbustas with bomb squigs.
I'd probably just straight up mimic Jeff Poole's Ork list. The only thing Id say is that this looks exactly like the previous lists Orks fielded before marines showed up, swapping Lootas for Gits.
I think you should drop the gits (as much as I like Flash Gitz) add another unit of Boys and Mad Dok, if you wanna go all in on the style they seemed to be piloting. Jeff had 4 units of boys and just maxed out the Tankbustas with bomb squigs.
At the very least, take 4th unit of boys.
I was wondering if trying out Mad Dok was worth it, but I'm scared it will eat up so much time saving that is gonna be counter productive.
Even if I think you are right, im scared I will have an aneurysm playin 120 Boyd at a GT, 90 is gonna be already a stretch
I was wondering if trying out Mad Dok was worth it, but I'm scared it will eat up so much time saving that is gonna be counter productive.
Even if I think you are right, im scared I will have an aneurysm playin 120 Boyd at a GT, 90 is gonna be already a stretch
I hear ya. It'll probably be really tolling.
I'm just not sure you're really going into the strat unless you are pushing that 4th+ squad. Birdsong and Poole were sporting Mad Dok and Birdsong even had 5+ Boy squads if I recall (and a lot more gretchin).
It's up to you. But I think we already know how the ~90 boy list does.
I wish I could dig it up, but Liam Hackett apparently took a bunch of grots / 30 Flash gits to Cancon and did well. But I'm not sure of the exact comp, other than a bunch of the grots were freebootas for shields.
Thayme wrote: These were posted in the Ork Facebook group
I’m sorry but seeing those pictures makes my inner mekboy Every single one built exactly the same and painted exactly the same, he should be ashamed That man is no Hero, He is a Codex User.
ORKS DON’T BUILD CARBON COPYS it’s fine to build one of each buggy to the directions, but you damn well convert the second and third ones
Except when you go to the top competitive event in the world, where you are pretty much expected to use GW's models.
Well, the point of “5 Boyz list” is simillar to “18 SMG list”. The point is = SPAM IT! If you spam something, you create a disbalance. Every army has to be able to kill all - hordes, elite infantry and big machines. If you spam with 1 kind of unit, you efectivelly disable big part of his gunz. What is the point to shoot the boyz with some super turbo giga ultra cannon S18 AP -9 DMG 15 or whatever?
3 units of Boyz is not a spam. It' s about more complex strategy. 5 units is a spam. These are 2 different types of gameplay. It's not about “shall I take 4th boyz or not? I don' t thing so. It' s about “shall I spam the boyz? = take 5 and dream about 6” or “shall I play the complex strategy, where the boyz are part of something? = take 3 and use the rest of the points for this “something = Tankbustas, lootas, gitz, smg, meganob, etc. Because this “something” have to be devastating. Because 3 unitz of boyz alone are not.
The spam Boyz (and Grots) list is fething awful to play and really quite simple.
The ‘tactic’ is flood the board with bodies, take objectives and win that way. Hope that when the enemy finally breaks the army down you have enough VP to win the game. It’s a calculated gamble. Don’t get me wrong - the SAG are there in an attempt to steal kill more after dealing with as many threats to the Boys as possible. The Tank Bustas provide a similar function for the list that took them. But it’s a boring list.
The tactic here reminds me of the index days. It’s basic and tedious. Any faction that can spam units can do it too. IG, Nids could all do the same tactic.
acme2468 wrote: Now that’s what I’m talking about. You are a real ork Moriarty
Fie, Sir! You will turn my head :-)
Many thanks to you all, hope it will spark some efforts at hammerin’ kits together for more Orky goodness. All I have to do now is find a way to make the Chinork work in game. . . . .
acme2468 wrote: Now that’s what I’m talking about. You are a real ork Moriarty
Fie, Sir! You will turn my head :-)
Many thanks to you all, hope it will spark some efforts at hammerin’ kits together for more Orky goodness. All I have to do now is find a way to make the Chinork work in game. . . . .
You will cause it is just a better version of a trukk.
An Actual Englishman wrote: The spam Boyz (and Grots) list is fething awful to play and really quite simple.
The ‘tactic’ is flood the board with bodies, take objectives and win that way. Hope that when the enemy finally breaks the army down you have enough VP to win the game. It’s a calculated gamble. Don’t get me wrong - the SAG are there in an attempt to steal kill more after dealing with as many threats to the Boys as possible. The Tank Bustas provide a similar function for the list that took them. But it’s a boring list.
The tactic here reminds me of the index days. It’s basic and tedious. Any faction that can spam units can do it too. IG, Nids could all do the same tactic.
This is why I never played it. Hell I never used lootas this edition because everyone did. But I believe having 90 boyz is ideal Vs TFC because they can target tremor with 2 units at maximum, and one charge is all that is needed in order to screw up that castle.
Birdsong was talking on Facebook and said that playing that army was incredibly tolling, to say the least. So honestly I don't wanna feel nauseous after a match.
Furthermore I want the point to play other stuff, instead of having 3 units spammed all over
Nora wrote: On the subject of spaming boyz, do you believe it would be an option to use stormboyz instead?
Option yes, particularly competive no. More expensive and even less punch in melee. Not good. They struggle to do much of anything and are very vulnerable to shooting.
Nora wrote: On the subject of spaming boyz, do you believe it would be an option to use stormboyz instead?
Option yes, particularly competive no. More expensive and even less punch in melee. Not good. They struggle to do much of anything and are very vulnerable to shooting.
I found my stormboyz to be particularly ineffective. In context, its a small squad but even compared to a small Boyz squad. Their advantage is mobility but they dont hit hard, just being Str 4 AP 0. Unlike regular boyz they can't even get tankbombs to take out a distant transport or tank, and can't really hold objectives as they aren't troops, have a 6+ save, and don't even have a KFF to hide behind usually.
I can see them being useful in the context of having 30 with a Klaw Nob, deepstriking and charging isolated or small units. But that's so expensive, 283pts vs a 30 man Boyz with Klaw nob coming in at 223. Which as said, can hold objectives, be near a KFF if desired, Mob Up, Green Tide, take tankbombs and special weapons if wanted. Plus can also jump in a Trukk or wagon to move around with protection.
Meta is shifting from needing to kill hordes to needing to kill marines. Given how dominant the marine faction is, people are optimizing towards killing elite infantry and multi-wound models with medium toughness (speeders, talons, centurions). Boyz are doing better because people bring less things to counter them.
Jidmah wrote: Meta is shifting from needing to kill hordes to needing to kill marines. Given how dominant the marine faction is, people are optimizing towards killing elite infantry and multi-wound models with medium toughness (speeders, talons, centurions).
Boyz are doing better because people bring less things to counter them.
This is why I never played it. Hell I never used lootas this edition because everyone did. But I believe having 90 boyz is ideal Vs TFC because they can target tremor with 2 units at maximum, and one charge is all that is needed in order to screw up that castle.
Birdsong was talking on Facebook and said that playing that army was incredibly tolling, to say the least. So honestly I don't wanna feel nauseous after a match.
Furthermore I want the point to play other stuff, instead of having 3 units spammed all over
Sadly, I think being competitive in ITC and having fun with lots of cool units is probably mutually exclusive with what our tools are.
I think no matter what, you have to bringing a butt load of models (be they grots or boys) to be able to live long enough to score VPs.
Nora wrote:
On the subject of spaming boyz, do you believe it would be an option to use stormboyz instead?
Try them out! I think these people are hatin' a bit. People have been using Warbikers as subs for Boys around here with great success, which on paper "suck".
What they have over boys:
1) Massive threat range without Da Jump (And can still be Da Jumped if need be). ES has move 20" guaranteed, non-ES 18", then charge if a warboss is nearby.
2) Fly keyword. You are now unaffected by tremor shells, can move over screens, and terrain.
3) Can charge enemy fliers (rather good option if the nob has a Killsaw).
4) Can Deepstrike for free.
5) Because of their threat range, get around Auspex scan, because you don't have to cheat them up via Psychic powers or Deep Striking.
What boys do better:
1) Cheaper PPM.
2) Natural ObSec (if you take Stormboys as Deathskulls, though, they get ObSec).
3) More attacks per model if above 20 (which they won't be long)
4) Targetable by useful stratagems like Green Tide (useful, but opponent can play around it).
5) Can take Rokkits (Which no one does) and tankbusta bombs.
I think in the age of TFCs, it's stupid to overlook how massive the Fly keyword on Stormboys is. And I think it's a bit of a joke claiming boys are somehow "killy" and stormboys aren't.
I don't think anyone claimed Stormboyz ain't killy. They're simply less efficient at the same tasks, because they have a higher ppm.
And you forgot to mention the fact that the "18" guaranteed" movement means you can't shoot (because Stormboyz only have Pistols) and that you're gonna lose models when you pop Full Throttle (1d6 chance PER MODEL to take a MW).
I got no problems with Stormboyz. I just think they're a lackluster replacement for Boyz.
Also, be aware that people use Warbikers as "replacement Boyz" in Mech lists. In an Infantry list, they would also be a poor replacement for Boyz.
flandarz wrote: I don't think anyone claimed Stormboyz ain't killy. They're simply less efficient at the same tasks, because they have a higher ppm.
And you forgot to mention the fact that the "18" guaranteed" movement means you can't shoot (because Stormboyz only have Pistols) and that you're gonna lose models when you pop Full Throttle (1d6 chance PER MODEL to take a MW).
I got no problems with Stormboyz. I just think they're a lackluster replacement for Boyz.
Also, be aware that people use Warbikers as "replacement Boyz" in Mech lists. In an Infantry list, they would also be a poor replacement for Boyz.
On claiming they suck in combat:
Deadshot wrote:
I found my stormboyz to be particularly ineffective. In context, its a small squad but even compared to a small Boyz squad. Their advantage is mobility but they dont hit hard, just being Str 4 AP 0.
So people are claiming they "don't hit hard" in combat, when they literally have the same statline.
Well, would you rather lose a few boys to mortal wounds or half a squad to entire round of shooting with Auspex scan-like abilities? A squad of 20 will lose just over 3 boys. If you have clever placement, you might be able to partially mitigate that with a well placed painboy. You also aren't forced to use it, just that you have in your pocket if you have a long charge to make.
I also think we shouldn't undersell that they ignore the worst part of Thunderfire Cannons: Tremor shells.
flandarz wrote: I don't think anyone claimed Stormboyz ain't killy. They're simply less efficient at the same tasks, because they have a higher ppm.
And you forgot to mention the fact that the "18" guaranteed" movement means you can't shoot (because Stormboyz only have Pistols) and that you're gonna lose models when you pop Full Throttle (1d6 chance PER MODEL to take a MW).
I got no problems with Stormboyz. I just think they're a lackluster replacement for Boyz.
Also, be aware that people use Warbikers as "replacement Boyz" in Mech lists. In an Infantry list, they would also be a poor replacement for Boyz.
I would also add that Warbikers are a LOT lot shootier than either Stormboyz or Choppa boyz head-to-head thanks to Dakkaguns.They're also A LOT tougher than them due to having T5, 2W each (3 for Nob) and a natural 5++. Also a bit faster than Stormboyz without advancing and have longer range guns.
Against the most common gun, the Bolt rifle
20 shots from 10 Intercessors
Vs Boy/Stormboy
20 shots, 3+ to hit = 13.33 hits
13 hits, 4+ to wound = 6.67 wounds
-1AP = 7 unsaved wounds
With KFF = 4.44 unsaved wounds
= 4-7 dead Boyz, 2-5 dead boyz and 1 dead nob, or 3-6 dead boyz and 1 wound Nob.
Vs Warbikers
20 Shots, 3+ to hit = 13.33 hits
13 hits, 5+ to wound = 4.44 wounds
-1AP = 5+ save = 2.96 unsaved = 1 dead Biker + 1 wounded biker, or 1 wounded Nob + no dead.
Vs a common Anti-infantry weapon, the Heavy Bolter or heavy flamer
Say, 4x Devastator Squad firing Heavy Bolters
Vs Boyz/Stormboyz
12 shots, 3+ to hit = 8 hits
8 hits, 3+ to wound, = 5.33 wounds
-1AP = 5 dead boyz, or 4 dead boyz 1 wounded nob, or 3 dead boyz 1 dead Nob
With KFF this drops to 3.33 unsaved = 3 dead boyz OR 2 dead boyz and 1 wounded nob, or 1 dead boy and 1 dead nob.
Vs Bikerz
8 hits, 4+ to wound = 4 wounds
-1AP = 5+ Save = 2.66 unsaved = 1 Dead biker + 1 wounded biker OR 1 dead Nob, no dead biker
Don't have the time to look at the math of it at the moment but just as important as the durability of your disruption unit is the offensive output. Yea the bikes will fire before charging and on paper the amount of shots from a unit of bikers can look very dangerous, but I've been consistently disappointed by it vs. anything tougher than GEQ (and it just tickles MEQ in cover). So you're definitely counting on the subsequent charge to make your rush have a bigger effect than simply disrupting a turn of shooting from a couple units (if your targets even can be stopped from shooting that way).
Warbikers are awful in CC, relative to our army. They just don't have weight of attacks, because you're paying more than 3x the price of Ork Boyz for worse output.
The freedom of movement from Fly, comparable speed (admittedly at a cost), better CC performance, and cheaper point cost, has definitely had me considering expanding on my Stormboyz collection over fielding my warbikers.
Madjob wrote: Don't have the time to look at the math of it at the moment but just as important as the durability of your disruption unit is the offensive output. Yea the bikes will fire before charging and on paper the amount of shots from a unit of bikers can look very dangerous, but I've been consistently disappointed by it vs. anything tougher than GEQ (and it just tickles MEQ in cover). So you're definitely counting on the subsequent charge to make your rush have a bigger effect than simply disrupting a turn of shooting from a couple units (if your targets even can be stopped from shooting that way).
Warbikers are awful in CC, relative to our army. They just don't have weight of attacks, because you're paying more than 3x the price of Ork Boyz for worse output.
The freedom of movement from Fly, comparable speed (admittedly at a cost), better CC performance, and cheaper point cost, has definitely had me considering expanding on my Stormboyz collection over fielding my warbikers.
I agree with you here. I think the Dakkaguns are fine but not really why you would care about Warbikers.
I think Jid (and crew here) have used Warbikers successfully because they can have a massive charge range, and they aren't really there to kill anything. Just tag as much of the enemy opponent as they can without getting wrecked first turn so the rest of your mech force can get into position without getting shot off the board.
To do this, you probably need Kult of Speed (-1 CP) and to use a stratagem (double your move for advance, -2CP) and keep a warboss / wartrike nearby so they can charge. With this, they can move 28" (non-ES) or 32" (ES) then charge after.
I think Stormboys have some things worth exploring. We do get quite a bit for 2PPM. And considering how much angst there is over Tremor Shells, it surprises me how much people dismiss a Boy that can literally ignore it, something that even Warbikers can't do.
Deadshot wrote:
They're also A LOT tougher than them due to having T5, 2W each (3 for Nob) and a natural 5++
I also don't know how you're getting a natural 5++ invul save on your warbikers Deadshot? The only invul save they can get is from being a Deathskull or the KFF.
flandarz wrote: I don't think anyone claimed Stormboyz ain't killy. They're simply less efficient at the same tasks, because they have a higher ppm.
And you forgot to mention the fact that the "18" guaranteed" movement means you can't shoot (because Stormboyz only have Pistols) and that you're gonna lose models when you pop Full Throttle (1d6 chance PER MODEL to take a MW).
I got no problems with Stormboyz. I just think they're a lackluster replacement for Boyz.
Also, be aware that people use Warbikers as "replacement Boyz" in Mech lists. In an Infantry list, they would also be a poor replacement for Boyz.
On claiming they suck in combat:
Deadshot wrote:
I found my stormboyz to be particularly ineffective. In context, its a small squad but even compared to a small Boyz squad. Their advantage is mobility but they dont hit hard, just being Str 4 AP 0.
So people are claiming they "don't hit hard" in combat, when they literally have the same statline.
Well, would you rather lose a few boys to mortal wounds or half a squad to entire round of shooting with Auspex scan-like abilities? A squad of 20 will lose just over 3 boys. If you have clever placement, you might be able to partially mitigate that with a well placed painboy. You also aren't forced to use it, just that you have in your pocket if you have a long charge to make.
I also think we shouldn't undersell that they ignore the worst part of Thunderfire Cannons: Tremor shells.
I calculated the following of these out to try and refute what you were saying, but I'm pleasantly surprised at the results and to find out you have a strong argument. Stormboyz might actually be pretty effective.
Spoiler:
20 Shoota Boyz (let's say for some reason I Da Jumped them into range but outside Auspex)
40 shots at 5+ to hit = 13.33 hits. But half of that are DakkaDakkaDakka shots giving an extra 6.66666 shots, equate to an extra 2.2222 hits. So 15.555 hits overall
15.55 hits at 4+ to wound = 7.78 wounds
7.25 wounds with 3+ save = 2.59 unsaved. That means a Primaris Marine is dead and 1 is wounded, or 3 regular Marines are dead.
20 Choppa Boyz
Assuming you want to charge, which you do, you need to be in Auspex Scan range
Intercessors
20 shots, 3+ to hit = 13.33 hits
13 hits, 4+ to wound = 6.67 wounds
-1AP = 7 unsaved wounds
10 Bolt Pistol Shots, 3+ to hit = 6.67 hits
4+ to wound = 3.33 wounds
6+ save = 1.11 unsaved wound
30 Boltgun and Bolt Pistol Shots
30 shots at 3+ to hit = 20 hits
4+ to wound = 10 wounds
6+ save = 8.33 dead Boyz
Ork Shooting, with average loss of 8 Boyz
12 Slugga shots at 5+ to hit is 4 hits, plus average of +2 shots for DDD, which brings the total to 4.66 hits average
4.66 hits at 4+ to wound = 2.33 wounds
3+ save brings this to 0.78 wounds = 1 dead Oldmarine or 1 wounded Primaris
Charging
Primaris Bolt Rifles + Pistols
Vs Primaris Bolt Rifles
20 Bolt Rifle shots = 3.33 hits, 1.66 wounds, = 2 dead boyz
10 Pistol shots = 0.69 unsaved wounds, so 3 boyz dead before combat begins
Vs Boltguns and Pistols
27 shots = 4.5 hits = 2.25 wounds = 0.75 unsaved = 1 dead boy(interesting that Primaris are only Marginally better average on overwatch)
9 Orks Charge vs 10 (1 wounded) Primaris with 9 Boyz Left
4 attacks each = 36 attacks
36 attacks, 3+ to hit = 24 hits
4+ to wound = 12 wounds
3+ to save = 4 failed saves = 2 dead Primaris (wounded one from earlier, and another full wounds) + 1 wounded Primaris
They strike back with 2 attacks each and +1 for sergeant so 17 attacks
17 attacks hitting on 3+ = 13.33 hits
4+ wound = 6.67 wounds
6+ save = 5.55 unsaved
This leaves just 4 Orks remaining who will definitely die during Morale phase, needing as they have lost 16 models this turn.
11 Boyz Charge vs 9 Old Marines
44 attacks on 3+ to hit = 29.33 hits
4+ to wound = 14.66 wounds
3+ save = 4.88 unsaved wounds = 5 dead marines
3 Marines + Sergeant hit back with 5 attacks
5 attacks on 3+ to hit = 3.33 hits
4+ to wound = 1.67 wounds
6+ save = 1.38 wounds or 1 dead boy
Marines will now likely run on Morale phase, with a 1 or 2 needed to pass
.
20 Stormboyz
20 Slugga shots = 6.67 hits include 3.33 DDD shots, for an extra 1.11 hit total on average. So 7.78 hits average
7.78 hits at 4+ to wound = 3.89 wounds
3.89 wounds at 3+ save = 1.27 unsaved = 1 wounded Primaris or 1 dead Oldmarine.
Charging
30 shots on Overwatch (Don't forget, all Marines have a Pistol as well as their bolter
Vs Primaris Bolt Rifles
20 Bolt Rifle shots = 3.33 hits, 1.66 wounds, = 2 dead stormboyz
10 Pistol shots = 0.69 unsaved wounds, so 3 stormboyz dead before combat begins
Vs Boltguns and Pistols
27 shots = 4.5 hits = 2.25 wounds = 0.75 unsaved = 1 dead stormboy (interesting that Primaris are only Marginally better average on overwatch)
Stormboyz hitting vs Primaris
17 survivors with 4 attacks each = 68 attacks
3+ to hit = 45.33 hits
4+ to wound = 22.66 wonds
3+ save = 7.55 unsaved wounds, or killing the wounded Primaris from shooting, plus 3 others.
6 surviving Primaris with Sergeant strike back with total of 13 attacks
3+ to hit = 8.66 hits
4+ to wound = 4.33 wounds
6+ save = 3.61 unsaved wounds, or 4 dead stormboyz
Vs Oldmarines
19 Stormboyz hit with 4 attacks each fr 76 attacks
3+ to hit = 50.66 hits
4+ to wound = 25.33 hits
3+ save = 8.44 unsaved wounds, or 8 dead space marines. 1 Marine is dead from Sluggas, so just, presumably, the Sergeant left.
Marines sergeant hit back with 2 attacks
3+ to hit = 1.66 hits
4+ to wound = 0.83 wound
6+ save = 0.69 wounds = 1 dead stormboy
So in summary
Da Jumped Shoota Boyz kill 1 Primaris Marine or 3 Old Marines for no losses
Da Jumped Choppa Boyz kill 2 Primaris and wound a 3rd, from a combination of shooting and melee. They lose 16 from a combination of Auspex, Overwatch and Melee, and the rest die to morale
Da Jumped Choppa Boyz kill 6 Marines from shooting and melee, and lose 10 from Auspex, Overwatch and Melee. The Marines will maybe lose another 1-3 marines, and the Orks will lose D6 (10 casualties + D6 vs LD 10 for 10 models in unit)
Stormboyz kill 4 Primaris from shooting and melee and lose 7 from Overwatch and melee
Stormboyz kill 9 marines from shooting and melee and lose 3 from overwatch and melee
Madjob wrote: Don't have the time to look at the math of it at the moment but just as important as the durability of your disruption unit is the offensive output. Yea the bikes will fire before charging and on paper the amount of shots from a unit of bikers can look very dangerous, but I've been consistently disappointed by it vs. anything tougher than GEQ (and it just tickles MEQ in cover). So you're definitely counting on the subsequent charge to make your rush have a bigger effect than simply disrupting a turn of shooting from a couple units (if your targets even can be stopped from shooting that way).
Warbikers are awful in CC, relative to our army. They just don't have weight of attacks, because you're paying more than 3x the price of Ork Boyz for worse output.
The freedom of movement from Fly, comparable speed (admittedly at a cost), better CC performance, and cheaper point cost, has definitely had me considering expanding on my Stormboyz collection over fielding my warbikers.
I agree with you here. I think the Dakkaguns are fine but not really why you would care about Warbikers.
I think Jid (and crew here) have used Warbikers successfully because they can have a massive charge range, and they aren't really there to kill anything. Just tag as much of the enemy opponent as they can without getting wrecked first turn so the rest of your mech force can get into position without getting shot off the board.
To do this, you probably need Kult of Speed (-1 CP) and to use a stratagem (double your move for advance, -2CP) and keep a warboss / wartrike nearby so they can charge. With this, they can move 28" (non-ES) or 32" (ES) then charge after.
I think Stormboys have some things worth exploring. We do get quite a bit for 2PPM. And considering how much angst there is over Tremor Shells, it surprises me how much people dismiss a Boy that can literally ignore it, something that even Warbikers can't do.
Deadshot wrote:
They're also A LOT tougher than them due to having T5, 2W each (3 for Nob) and a natural 5++
I also don't know how you're getting a natural 5++ invul save on your warbikers Deadshot? The only invul save they can get is from being a Deathskull or the KFF.
Ah, apologies, I wrote 5++ when I meant to write 5+ vs AP-1. obviously differs vs other APs.
Da Jumped Shoota Boyz kill 1 Primaris Marine or 3 Old Marines for no losses
Da Jumped Choppa Boyz kill 2 Primaris and wound a 3rd, from a combination of shooting and melee. They lose 16 from a combination of Auspex, Overwatch and Melee, and the rest die to morale
Da Jumped Choppa Boyz kill 6 Marines from shooting and melee, and lose 10 from Auspex, Overwatch and Melee. The Marines will maybe lose another 1-3 marines, and the Orks will lose D6 (10 casualties + D6 vs LD 10 for 10 models in unit)
Stormboyz kill 4 Primaris from shooting and melee and lose 7 from Overwatch and melee
Stormboyz kill 9 marines from shooting and melee and lose 3 from overwatch and melee
Interesting napkin math. I think the key question is can you deliver them without getting shot too much? With their fly / mobility, I think it's possible, it's just not as straightforward as Da Jump / Deepstrike. It requires good positioning and having some proper terrain on the board.
Another thing to toss into those calcs: Take them as Deathskulls. They lose some mobility, but they gain a 6+ invul and the Nob is now much more consistent with its PK / Killsaw. They benefit from the movement stuff of ES but it's definitely not as good as it is on Boys.
Your calcs are a bit off, though. The Boys won't have 4 attacks (being below 20 in the unit), and Stormboys just have 3 attacks each. Although this should affect your calcs about the same as you did it on both.
Da Jumped Shoota Boyz kill 1 Primaris Marine or 3 Old Marines for no losses Da Jumped Choppa Boyz kill 2 Primaris and wound a 3rd, from a combination of shooting and melee. They lose 16 from a combination of Auspex, Overwatch and Melee, and the rest die to morale Da Jumped Choppa Boyz kill 6 Marines from shooting and melee, and lose 10 from Auspex, Overwatch and Melee. The Marines will maybe lose another 1-3 marines, and the Orks will lose D6 (10 casualties + D6 vs LD 10 for 10 models in unit) Stormboyz kill 4 Primaris from shooting and melee and lose 7 from Overwatch and melee Stormboyz kill 9 marines from shooting and melee and lose 3 from overwatch and melee
Interesting napkin math. I think the key question is can you deliver them without getting shot too much? With their fly / mobility, I think it's possible, it's just not as straightforward as Da Jump / Deepstrike. It requires good positioning and having some proper terrain on the board.
Another thing to toss into those calcs: Take them as Deathskulls. They lose some mobility, but they gain a 6+ invul and the Nob is now much more consistent with its PK / Killsaw. They benefit from the movement stuff of ES but it's definitely not as good as it is on Boys.
Your calcs are a bit off, though. The Boys won't have 4 attacks (being below 20 in the unit), and Stormboys just have 3 attacks each. Although this should affect your calcs about the same as you did it on both.
Ahhh the joys of a dodgy keyboard I'll redo them latest but I can't imagine the results being too different. One other thing to note is that if you can get footboyz up the field and charge without worrying about Auspex Scan or similar, they'll get similar results to the stormboyz. Stormboyz is done without as one can assume they can fly up the field fast enough they don't need to deepstrike. If they did, again, similar results.
Also, I did these calcs without Klan/Chapter tactics and without Nobs and special sergeant weapons. There's a lot of variables there that can definitely flip the script. I can imagine Deathskulls definitely altering a lot of things.
flandarz wrote: I don't think anyone claimed Stormboyz ain't killy. They're simply less efficient at the same tasks, because they have a higher ppm.
And you forgot to mention the fact that the "18" guaranteed" movement means you can't shoot (because Stormboyz only have Pistols) and that you're gonna lose models when you pop Full Throttle (1d6 chance PER MODEL to take a MW).
I got no problems with Stormboyz. I just think they're a lackluster replacement for Boyz.
Also, be aware that people use Warbikers as "replacement Boyz" in Mech lists. In an Infantry list, they would also be a poor replacement for Boyz.
Higher ppm, 25% less attacks. And without da jump can't rely on t1 charge anyway
Ahhh the joys of a dodgy keyboard I'll redo them latest but I can't imagine the results being too different. One other thing to note is that if you can get footboyz up the field and charge without worrying about Auspex Scan or similar, they'll get similar results to the stormboyz. Stormboyz is done without as one can assume they can fly up the field fast enough they don't need to deepstrike. If they did, again, similar results.
Also, I did these calcs without Klan/Chapter tactics and without Nobs and special sergeant weapons. There's a lot of variables there that can definitely flip the script. I can imagine Deathskulls definitely altering a lot of things.
All good. I think the main reason why people are so obsessed with Da Jump -> charge is that slogging boys is not all that feasible.
I guess the pitch I would make is this:
1) 10 grots + 20 Stormboys costs the same as 30 boys in a battalion; in an Outrider (I have been doing bat/bat/1 cp detachment), you don't have the grot tax, so this is actually 30 points cheaper or 23 Storm boyz if you wanna equal it out. I think they can fill the same role.
2) In matchups where the opponent has anti deep strike tech (top tier armies like: Eldar, Tau, Space Marines), Stormboys will fare better because they don't have to deepstrike to charge. In matchups where the opponent doesn't have anti-DS tech, Stormboys will likely fare just fine anyway.
3) With the fly keyword, it removes a quiver from our probably most hated unit, TFCs.
4) If you still want the option to Da Jump your Stormboys with the same charge efficiency as slogging boys, you can take them as ES and they can do that. If you want them to be a bit more survivable, killy, and to get ObSec, you can take them as Deathskulls., at the cost of only making the charge out of deep strike ~58% of the time as opposed to 80%.
So I would offer: try out 20 Stormboys as potential replacements for 30 man boy squads. At the very least, flying boys is more fun to play.
Emicrania wrote: I think you are right @Tulun, I´ll try a list with 27*2 boyx and 25 Storm and we'll see what happens.
Sweet! I'm trying something similar Sunday (either 1 boy, 1 stormboy squad, or 2x boy, 1 stormboy squad). Let me know how it does. I'm gonna be trying mine as all Deathskulls, we'll see how that goes.
I'm also interested to see how they play out. I DO think Stormboyz will work better against Marines, but even now Marines only make up like 40% of the Meta, so I'd like to see if they can be a good "replacement" against other armies. Especially when you're losing 25% of your damage potential, Green Tide, and Mob Up for 2 ppm more than Boyz.
Would see them more as help than replacement.
Jumping + tellyporting 60 boys turn 2 + 1-2 squads stormboys gets quite some stress on the opponent.
Don`t see anything else than Evil suns making sense on them right now. Until Saga of the beast drops at least.^^
flandarz wrote: I'm also interested to see how they play out. I DO think Stormboyz will work better against Marines, but even now Marines only make up like 40% of the Meta, so I'd like to see if they can be a good "replacement" against other armies. Especially when you're losing 25% of your damage potential, Green Tide, and Mob Up for 2 ppm more than Boyz.
What matchups are you concerned about specifically? Remembers that +1 attack isn't there forever. And functionally, from DS -> Charge, you are maybe losing... 15 attacks? Seems like the rule of thumb is about 15 boys consolidate in, right?
I dunno. Green Tide is boss, but I've found people can very easily play around it. Wiping out 6+ save Evil Sun boys, even 30 of them in 1 go, is not all that difficult for most armies. Once people understand the triggers (IE: don't let the boys go below 16 unless you can wipe them out), its rare to get it off, or it requires the auto pass morale stratagem, taking it up to 5 CP. It's amazing on paper. How often do you actually get it off against smart opponents, though, at 3 CP?
I would say there's nothing stopping from a mix of the two, as well, if they really give a massive edge on non-marine armies.
Well, not just from the extra CC, but you're losing damage from the Shootas you can no longer field. I believe most folks run their Boyz as 20 Slugga/10 Shoota. If Stormboyz could be run with Shootas, I wouldn't even be concerned.
Wiping out Boyz is easy, unless you can manage to lock someone into CC. Most units just don't have the weight of CC attacks to take them out in large numbers. But we're Orkz; getting wiped out in large numbers is pretty much what we're all about.
One thing to note is that our current "winning" strategy is to saturate the board with bodies, so grabbing the most point efficient options is going to be important there. Even if it's mind-numbingly dull.
Ork infantry armies have so many models on the board, giving so wide a variance in their rolls, could mean that trying to squeeze max efficiency is a bit like chasing the Chimera (the beast, not the APC).
The more units you have, the more opportunities you have to swing wide on the dice results, and the more limited the chances to affect the results with Strats / Command re-rolls.
I’m no mathematician, but I would not stress how finely you can tweak the points. It looks like 40k Life is going to frustrate you.
I am going to expand my speedfreaks army with some walkers. Two dreads will be the first addition, but I am also looking at something bigger. The Gork/Mork don't really appeal to me visually so I was looking further afield and thinking of adding a single allied (and off course completely orkified) knight. Which type of knight is the best and most suitable to use as ally?
flandarz wrote: I'm also interested to see how they play out. I DO think Stormboyz will work better against Marines, but even now Marines only make up like 40% of the Meta, so I'd like to see if they can be a good "replacement" against other armies. Especially when you're losing 25% of your damage potential, Green Tide, and Mob Up for 2 ppm more than Boyz.
What matchups are you concerned about specifically? Remembers that +1 attack isn't there forever. And functionally, from DS -> Charge, you are maybe losing... 15 attacks? Seems like the rule of thumb is about 15 boys consolidate in, right?
I dunno. Green Tide is boss, but I've found people can very easily play around it. Wiping out 6+ save Evil Sun boys, even 30 of them in 1 go, is not all that difficult for most armies. Once people understand the triggers (IE: don't let the boys go below 16 unless you can wipe them out), its rare to get it off, or it requires the auto pass morale stratagem, taking it up to 5 CP. It's amazing on paper. How often do you actually get it off against smart opponents, though, at 3 CP?
I would say there's nothing stopping from a mix of the two, as well, if they really give a massive edge on non-marine armies.
+1 attack is essentially there forever because when opponent deals with the unit they will delete the unit so either you greentide it back to 30 or it's dead or has like 2-3 survivors anyway. You don't get to attack more than one turn anyway so the +1A is there as long as needed.
While wiping out boyz is easy, you can expect that most armies won't be killing more than two entire units per turn unless you move them into the firing range of anti-horde units like aggressors.
Stormboyz fulfill two roles - one is threatening your opponent T1, usually with three units of storm boyz and one additional unit of boyz jumping afterwards. Their main job is to restrict enemy movement, draw fire and clear out any screens for your second wave - in T2, you should follow up with a similar wave of da jumped and tellyported boyz.
The other role is paying points for deep strikes instead of CP. If you are already running three battalion, this is a way to squeeze out even more CP by not having to pay for tellyport.
Emicrania wrote: I think you are right @Tulun, I´ll try a list with 27*2 boyx and 25 Storm and we'll see what happens.
Sweet! I'm trying something similar Sunday (either 1 boy, 1 stormboy squad, or 2x boy, 1 stormboy squad). Let me know how it does. I'm gonna be trying mine as all Deathskulls, we'll see how that goes.
You gonna run it Evil Suns or something else?
I had to cancel today so its gonna be next Monday. You know, I think I might try them ES just because the rest of the detachment is ES and I want to be able to advance and charge, for the most part, I want them to be able to tag 2 tanks-TFC, so I can take out the rest of the artillery with a jumped SAG or the tankabustas
Jidmah wrote: While wiping out boyz is easy, you can expect that most armies won't be killing more than two entire units per turn unless you move them into the firing range of anti-horde units like aggressors.
Stormboyz fulfill two roles - one is threatening your opponent T1, usually with three units of storm boyz and one additional unit of boyz jumping afterwards. Their main job is to restrict enemy movement, draw fire and clear out any screens for your second wave - in T2, you should follow up with a similar wave of da jumped and tellyported boyz.
The other role is paying points for deep strikes instead of CP. If you are already running three battalion, this is a way to squeeze out even more CP by not having to pay for tellyport.
Yes. but then again they won't be reducing 2 units to <20 either. So the +1A is basically there until unit gets wiped out. So the boyz have 33% more attacks than stormboyz(or stormboyz have 25% less whichever you want to look at it).
And boyz already are struggling to do much killing especially against remotely competent opponent who knows how to not let 30 boyz all get into combat.
60 pts is lot to pay for 25% less punch and not fully reliable T1 assault.
Jidmah wrote: While wiping out boyz is easy, you can expect that most armies won't be killing more than two entire units per turn unless you move them into the firing range of anti-horde units like aggressors.
Stormboyz fulfill two roles - one is threatening your opponent T1, usually with three units of storm boyz and one additional unit of boyz jumping afterwards. Their main job is to restrict enemy movement, draw fire and clear out any screens for your second wave - in T2, you should follow up with a similar wave of da jumped and tellyported boyz. The other role is paying points for deep strikes instead of CP. If you are already running three battalion, this is a way to squeeze out even more CP by not having to pay for tellyport.
Yes. but then again they won't be reducing 2 units to <20 either. So the +1A is basically there until unit gets wiped out. So the boyz have 33% more attacks than stormboyz(or stormboyz have 25% less whichever you want to look at it).
And boyz already are struggling to do much killing especially against remotely competent opponent who knows how to not let 30 boyz all get into combat.
60 pts is lot to pay for 25% less punch and not fully reliable T1 assault.
The number of attacks isn't really that relevant for storm boyz. Their job is not to deal damage, but to tie down your enemy during the first turn, clear out screens and force your opponent to handle them so your real boyz with +1 A can show up in T2.doesn't really matter. Since they can use INFANTRY stratagems like fighting twice, they are quite a threat to gun castles. The charge is semi-reliable. While one unit in a vacuum is not guaranteed to make it, the odds of getting one or two out of three look a lot better.
All but one unit of boyz have 0 attacks in turn one, so the real question is whether you need/want or want 2-4 units of boyz with the ability to be in your opponent's face turn one.
However, since the TF cannon can just neuter two units of stormboyz by halfing their movement, I'd rather not play them in marine meta.
I had to cancel today so its gonna be next Monday. You know, I think I might try them ES just because the rest of the detachment is ES and I want to be able to advance and charge, for the most part, I want them to be able to tag 2 tanks-TFC, so I can take out the rest of the artillery with a jumped SAG or the tankabustas
Yeah, that's fair. I've been enjoying mono kultur and keeping my warboss able to affect all of my grots, but it's tempting to run them as Suns for the threat range.
Jidmah wrote:
Good catch - I guess that would actually make them a valid option.
Yeah, it's part of the reason I pitched Stormboyz as an alternative to Boys against Marines. Why I was confused they aren't being given a more serious look. Ignoring Tremor shells is a big deal.
The other factor is stormboyz are kinda pricy to get that many of and kitbashing that many is quite time consuming.
Thats why i dont have any, i just dont want to sink the time.
Vineheart01 wrote: The other factor is stormboyz are kinda pricy to get that many of and kitbashing that many is quite time consuming.
Thats why i dont have any, i just dont want to sink the time.
I can verify this. I have a rare collection of roughly 40 and it took a lot of ebaying and a few years of slowly accumulating boxes to get that many. The FLY keyword makes a world of difference though, especially when it comes to ruins and other tall terrain that can cause problems for us. Areas where you can barely fit deffkoptas are areas where stormboyz can land and perch alongside those annoying snipers that like to hide at the top of hills and such.
I can verify this. I have a rare collection of roughly 40 and it took a lot of ebaying and a few years of slowly accumulating boxes to get that many. The FLY keyword makes a world of difference though, especially when it comes to ruins and other tall terrain that can cause problems for us. Areas where you can barely fit deffkoptas are areas where stormboyz can land and perch alongside those annoying snipers that like to hide at the top of hills and such.
One of the reasons I picked up a squad. Going to get their initial run Sunday.
I often play on tables with tall ruin terrain which has overhangs with very high (8+ inch) climbs. It's very cool, but when my sparring buddy can fly his jetbikes with impunity and infiltrate his rangers to spot sI have no chance of hell in charging with most of my normal units, it's annoying to say the least. Why I've loved Deff Koptas too. They can get at those crow nests.
Played against IF today, I won for the second time.
First rurn I kill repulsor with SSAG, I kill aggressord and primaris eith lootas, my mek gunz kill some troops too
Second turn I kill dreadnought with ssag, lootas kill more primaris, my boyz jump and do nothing, they die
Third turn my lootas are dead, I kill troops with mek gunz
Fourth turn we both are out of armies, i have some boyz left, he got some primaris and HQ, he try to attack me ssag but hes far away, so I win the match playing defensive last turns
Im going with 4 smashers and 60 boyz and I think I need more boyz and some more smashers, I would go 6 smash and 90 boyz and I would drop wazvbomb blastajet
Vineheart01 wrote: The other factor is stormboyz are kinda pricy to get that many of and kitbashing that many is quite time consuming.
Thats why i dont have any, i just dont want to sink the time.
In addition they are quite boring models - just boyz with more movement. Playing tons of boyz has always been the least favorite part of playing orks.
I really miss the days of battlewagon boyz being good
Yeah, wagon anything is more for fun than effective.
I run 2x10 shoota boyz w/ rokkits (nobz with a kombi rokkit so 4 rokkits) on a wagon alot but its more a distraction than a proper threat.
Vineheart01 wrote: The other factor is stormboyz are kinda pricy to get that many of and kitbashing that many is quite time consuming.
Thats why i dont have any, i just dont want to sink the time.
In addition they are quite boring models - just boyz with more movement. Playing tons of boyz has always been the least favorite part of playing orks.
I really miss the days of battlewagon boyz being good
You and me both. It's a pity that this edition has no incentive for armies to take transports. Outside of outliers like Wave Serpents (which is seen more because of how resilient it is to shooting) I basically almost never see transports in most of my games. All they have to do is make assault vehicles a bespoke rule for transports like Land Raiders, trukk and battlewagons, which allows units to disembark after the transport moves. That right there would make Nobz/Meganobz in transports viable. That or some sort of upgrades that are actually relevant to making the transport do something, like the boarding plank giving +2" to a charge from a disembarked unit rather than the poopy stratagem it is now, or the reinforced ram causing D3 mortals wounds on a 4+ to an enemy unit when it charges successfully.
Vineheart01 wrote: They should bring back the Assault Vehicle rule (open topped, land raiders) where they can disembark after moving.
It was dumb you couldnt charge PERIOD after disembark, glad thats gone, but not being able to move + disembark is just as weird.
Yeah, it seems to be a weird half measure to prevent as much alpha striking with transports, but with that change and the priciness of transports alongside how units can't use aura abilities inside makes it so assault units are NOT viable in transports. That's why any good assault unit needs either access to innate or paid deep strike potential or moves fast on their own (i.e. jump packs). Transports are just too much of a liability with how many points they take up and how little they give back in return.
Yeah, really the only way assaulty things work in a transport is if you deepstriked the transport...since Ramming Speed is a thing.
Problem with that is sometimes it can just get completely surrounded so...theyre stuck in it.
Vineheart01 wrote: The other factor is stormboyz are kinda pricy to get that many of and kitbashing that many is quite time consuming.
Thats why i dont have any, i just dont want to sink the time.
They can be converted from Boyz. Plastic tubes in (?) half and quarter inch diameter, and some guitar string. Smaller tube on front belt as controls, larger on back with lower split for Venturi. Add rocket head from putty, straps and decoration to taste.
note that i said "kitbashing that many is quite time consuming"
Sure you can just strap a tube with a rocket-nose to their back but it looks ugly as hell. If youre going to go through the hassle of kitbashing, do it right so it looks great and you dont feel sinful using it later down the road.
Which does take awhile. I plan to just say eff it and print rokkit bits when i get a resin printer and convert boyz over, im not kitbashing 30-40 annoyingly small and detailed rocket backpacks lol.
I'll go through that ass pain for a Stormboss if we somehow ever get access to that, not for a squad or two of boyz
Vineheart01 wrote: The other factor is stormboyz are kinda pricy to get that many of and kitbashing that many is quite time consuming.
Thats why i dont have any, i just dont want to sink the time.
They can be converted from Boyz. Plastic tubes in (?) half and quarter inch diameter, and some guitar string. Smaller tube on front belt as controls, larger on back with lower split for Venturi. Add rocket head from putty, straps and decoration to taste.
The other simple option is to loot marine jump packs - they fit boyz just fine. (And are especially fluffy for Deathskulls and Blood Axes ) To avoid them all looking the same, it's easy enough to add extra rivets, bolts, tubes, glyphs etc, and of course they can all be painted differently.
I think Stormboyz didn't historically get much of a look-in because the meta wasn't so ludicrously biased towards marines, which are the matchup where paying the extra points and losing the extra attack for a big mob seems most attractive.
I haven't really spent enough time thinking to see whether it makes sense, but I've been kicking around the idea for a list based around stormboyz + warbike warboss + wazboms with KFFs. If you can keep stuff within the KFF bubble, your opponent basically has to kill the wazbom before they can shoot your stormboyz or else it's super inefficient for them. FLY on the stormboyz seems like it would be really useful for messing screens too from T2 on.
So much of the meta these days seems built around DS and anti-DS, and to have the option to be able to get around most of that seems like it's be pretty valuable. Though also kinda gimmicky in that if you run into a list that isn't based around that you might get stomped.
yukishiro1 wrote: I think Stormboyz didn't historically get much of a look-in because the meta wasn't so ludicrously biased towards marines, which are the matchup where paying the extra points and losing the extra attack for a big mob seems most attractive.
I haven't really spent enough time thinking to see whether it makes sense, but I've been kicking around the idea for a list based around stormboyz + warbike warboss + wazboms with KFFs. If you can keep stuff within the KFF bubble, your opponent basically has to kill the wazbom before they can shoot your stormboyz or else it's super inefficient for them. FLY on the stormboyz seems like it would be really useful for messing screens too from T2 on.
So much of the meta these days seems built around DS and anti-DS, and to have the option to be able to get around most of that seems like it's be pretty valuable. Though also kinda gimmicky in that if you run into a list that isn't based around that you might get stomped.
If you're feeling really cheeky too, you could da jump a painboy / mad dok up to where your stormboys are to give them a FNP too.
I'm not sure it's that gimmicky. They are basically boys with jump packs on. In the wrong matchup, you've overpaid for a boy; in the right matchups, you've prevented your boy from being deadweight.
As people have pointed out, if people gear to kill primaris, boys don't fare so badly. Maybe overpaying a bit for a stormboy isn't that big a deal. At least you can flip the bird to Tremor Shells, can still Da Jump, still fight again, still enter ruins...
yukishiro1 wrote: I think Stormboyz didn't historically get much of a look-in because the meta wasn't so ludicrously biased towards marines, which are the matchup where paying the extra points and losing the extra attack for a big mob seems most attractive.
That's not true, we had storm boyz as staples on many top placing lists that were running the green tide archetype, which is no making a comeback. Those lists died out when everyone was gearing towards deleting guardsmen, plague bearers and cultists.
Stormboyz have been used in every edition except 7th (where they literally killed themselves to move for some fething dumb reason) because its more boyz that didnt need wheelz to get across the board. And could get across unimpeded.
I dont recall a single time they were good when base boyz werent good. Like what was pointed out earlier, theyre boring. Theyre literally boyz, so if boyz are bad they will be bad too. If boyz are good, odds are they will be good too.
im not even sure what they could give them to spice them up a bit that wouldnt be more along the lines of "StormNobz" (which i wish was a thing btw)
Considering Stormboyz are the "more disciplined" Orkz in a tribe, I think they could really do with a 4+ BS. And with only being able to use Sluggas, it's not like that should be terribly broken.
Vineheart01 wrote: Stormboyz have been used in every edition except 7th (where they literally killed themselves to move for some fething dumb reason) because its more boyz that didnt need wheelz to get across the board. And could get across unimpeded.
I dont recall a single time they were good when base boyz werent good. Like what was pointed out earlier, theyre boring. Theyre literally boyz, so if boyz are bad they will be bad too. If boyz are good, odds are they will be good too.
im not even sure what they could give them to spice them up a bit that wouldnt be more along the lines of "StormNobz" (which i wish was a thing btw)
Personally I'd be ecstatic if we could have Storm Nobz (it was a thing way back in DoW Retribution for the Ork campaign, good gork it was glorious) but I think if they were to spice up Stormboyz more, it would be so that they could have a suicide bomber aspect to them, taking full advantage they have a literal rocket strapped to their back. Like on a successful charge, you may choose any Stormboy models that are within 1" of an enemy unit to "press da big red button"; roll a D6 for each model that you choose that nominates to do this. On a 5+, you remove that model as a casualty and inflict a mortal wound on the enemy unit the model was closest to. Add 1 to this roll against units with the FLY keyword.
On the other hand, they are supposedly the most militaristic and "disciplined" Orks, given their drills or what not, so maybe they reroll to hits of 1 in CC or something along those lines to show their drilled combat ability? Not sure if boosting their CC ability is good though, since that steps on the toes of Nobz/Meganobz and what they're supposed to do. At most it would be interesting that if their Nob stays alive that they only ever have a single model flee during a morale test, but that would mean Zagstruk would need an overhaul for what aura buff he gives Stormboyz.
Kill Saws are still better. The 2 point difference for both guaranteed flat damage and the extra pip of AP makes a world of difference in the current Primaris meta. Even against CWE, they have a lot of 3+ saves in the army, getting to deny it outright versus giving them a save makes all the difference.
tulun wrote: Wanna field this against CWE. Kill saws are still better than PKs even with Deathskulls, right?
Pretty much - even with a re-roll on damage, there is a 1/9 chance to fail killing a 2W model and a 1/6 chance to bounce off 3+ armor. In return, you get a 44% chance to deal one more damage. For a weapon that tends to gets used only once or twice, I prefer not taking chances.
I can verify this. I have a rare collection of roughly 40 and it took a lot of ebaying and a few years of slowly accumulating boxes to get that many. The FLY keyword makes a world of difference though, especially when it comes to ruins and other tall terrain that can cause problems for us. Areas where you can barely fit deffkoptas are areas where stormboyz can land and perch alongside those annoying snipers that like to hide at the top of hills and such.
One of the reasons I picked up a squad. Going to get their initial run Sunday.
I often play on tables with tall ruin terrain which has overhangs with very high (8+ inch) climbs. It's very cool, but when my sparring buddy can fly his jetbikes with impunity and infiltrate his rangers to spot sI have no chance of hell in charging with most of my normal units, it's annoying to say the least. Why I've loved Deff Koptas too. They can get at those crow nests.
Mind you during charge you only ignore only non-building models Building models and fly keyword is useless in charge phase. Movement phase yeah you can work but if you are down and enemy is up in the building you have to climb it the long way(and that's assuming opponent has left base wide area there for you to fit into...)
Mind you during charge you only ignore only non-building models Building models and fly keyword is useless in charge phase. Movement phase yeah you can work but if you are down and enemy is up in the building you have to climb it the long way(and that's assuming opponent has left base wide area there for you to fit into...)
Yeah I know. I get why it’s like that even though it’s kind of nonsensical.
But with an 18” fly move I’m pretty confident I can do something. Better than my current situation.
Honestly the thing I want most to happen is my Stormboyz wreck a CHE. I would love to smash one in CC. With wreckers too I think they do so easily.
I feel like you ain't gonna be able to take down much of anything with a bunch of WS3+ S4 attacks, dealing 1 Damage with no AP. Maybe a MSU of Grots or Guardsmen? It gets a little better if you throw a Klaw on your Nob, but I still wouldn't bet on them wiping out anything substantial. Bear in mind that your chances of getting all your models into CC are pretty slim, so best case you're probably looking at 20 models in range.
The primary threat for Boyz and Stormboyz is trapping units into CC. Over a couple turns, you could definitely take something down, but that's not really what you're using them for.
flandarz wrote: I feel like you ain't gonna be able to take down much of anything with a bunch of WS3+ S4 attacks, dealing 1 Damage with no AP. Maybe a MSU of Grots or Guardsmen? It gets a little better if you throw a Klaw on your Nob, but I still wouldn't bet on them wiping out anything substantial. Bear in mind that your chances of getting all your models into CC are pretty slim, so best case you're probably looking at 20 models in range.
The primary threat for Boyz and Stormboyz is trapping units into CC. Over a couple turns, you could definitely take something down, but that's not really what you're using them for.
Oh, definitely.
But 20 Stormboyz w/ Wreckers stratagem inflicts something like 7.33 wounds (60 attacks, 40 hits, 22 wounds with re-rollable 5+, ) without the nob on a CHE -- the -1 to hit is only applied in shooting, not CC. Add in the nob with a saw and Lucky and you got 1.75 hits, re-roll all wounds.
It's not that crazy to think they can rip one out of the sky. Deathskulls baby.
I am now the proud owner of two stompas - My roommate found a pair on ebay for 160 and I pulled the trigger honestly without much thought even though I know they're in a bad place right now.
I know they're not competitive but what are some things I can do to make them semi effective?
CptMendoza wrote: I am now the proud owner of two stompas - My roommate found a pair on ebay for 160 and I pulled the trigger honestly without much thought even though I know they're in a bad place right now.
I know they're not competitive but what are some things I can do to make them semi effective?
I suppose you could make them Kustom Stompas, give them a pair of lifta droppas to put out a couple mortal wounds?
My list was SSAG, SAG, 40 grot, 60 boyz, 4 koptas, 10 tankbustas, battlewagon, 15 lootas, wazbomb blastajet, kff, 2 weidboy, painboy and warboss.
First match against IH, I destroy first turn Repulsor and vindicator, second turn I destroy redemptor and some flyer. Still he managed to win (roflmao...) but 24-21.
Second match against Alatoic, first turn I destroy a wave serpent with lootas, I fail all charges. He kills 30 boyz.
Second turn I destroy 3 fething Hemlock Wraithfighters!!!!!! (1 with lootas+moar dakka, 1 with 10 tankbuster bombs, 1 with SSAG, SAG and wazbomb blastajet with +1 to flyers). He kills my tankbustas and warboss, he is out of time (and he get so tilt about that) and I'm free to destroy everything, he concedes, 31-12.
Third turn against Custodes, the same guy I lost by far last week, he laughs cuz I'm paired with him. Indeed I lose.
First turn I let a bike to 1 wound, then he kills 30 boyz.
Second turn I kill some bikes with lootas, my SSAG and SAG kill another bike, but my boyz has not enough power to kill custodes, he win all melee fights and, turn after turn, he kill me everything but the lootas and some stuff. 36-21.
I was afraid of IH and custodes and I was paired with both of them, and they were the only ones playing marines in the whole tournament, it happens.
If someone knows what can I do against those custodes, please help me
If someone knows what can I do against those custodes, please help me
I use Flash Gitz in waggons a lot, as well as many weapons with D6 or 3 Dmg (Dragsta, Scrapjets, Koptaz, Wazbom Blastajet, SAG, Mek Gunz, Morkanaut)
Have to say i have quite some success against my two buddys playing custodes, using lots of gretchin as screening while my vehicle heavy army & 20 - 30 Flash Gitz blast them to pieces.
Got way more problems against the custodes flier list, that matchup depends heavily on who gets the first turn and is a nightmare to play against.
Anything else Custodes is a walk in the park for me - but i skipped playing boys because its way too boring to play.
It`s ether hoping for your 8" charges to go off or slogging 200+ models including gretchin.
Vehicle heavy lists are fun, dynamic and can still pack some punch.
Against IH or IF i tellyport as much stuff as i can and pray for good LOS blockers.
Boys in CC against Custodes suck. Only thing almost worth a damn for me is mob up goff Scarboys and get two nobs with two killsaws each that make up to 12 attacks together with some extra S5 attacks from the boys + fight twice.
Or run goffs in Bonebreakers, 2 squads of boys, banner and nobs, they hurt them but get smoked as well.
Don`t expect great results though, those golden boys can CC counter our poor green boys like hell.
CptMendoza wrote: I am now the proud owner of two stompas - My roommate found a pair on ebay for 160 and I pulled the trigger honestly without much thought even though I know they're in a bad place right now.
I know they're not competitive but what are some things I can do to make them semi effective?
Honestly? The best thing you can do is ask you opponent to take it easy on ya. Alternatively, see if they'll let you home rule that the Stompa ignores the degradation table. But even then, it's gonna be tough simply due to the nearly 50% of your point total cost, no inherent Invuln, and the abundance of anti-armor weapons in the game.
CptMendoza wrote: I am now the proud owner of two stompas - My roommate found a pair on ebay for 160 and I pulled the trigger honestly without much thought even though I know they're in a bad place right now.
I know they're not competitive but what are some things I can do to make them semi effective?
Honestly? The best thing you can do is ask you opponent to take it easy on ya. Alternatively, see if they'll let you home rule that the Stompa ignores the degradation table. But even then, it's gonna be tough simply due to the nearly 50% of your point total cost, no inherent Invuln, and the abundance of anti-armor weapons in the game.
Or use them as terrain pieces? Make great lost blockers :-)
On a serious note, I would play your opponent twice, and second game ask for a house ruled points deduction on them.
I actually was talking about the "ignore wound tracks" bit with a friend and felt like if that actually happened the Stompa would be fine as its costed, at worst needs another 50pts off.
Thats a ton of wounds you gotta get through and at no point does it become kinda worthless like everything with track wounds that isnt a FW Marine unit does.
Its still mega expensive though so i'd rather it be reworked so i can actually use it. Since Apoc is a thing i havnt had any urge to play a game beyond 2000pts anymore lol (note theyre actually pretty good in Apoc)
The only time the stompa was almost competitive was when people used the misprinted fW buzzgrob custom stompa rules and that was 300 pts less then the listed price... plus people had to stack it with another big Mek w kff to give it an invul!!!
It was then balanced but still wasn’t winning any tournaments so it wasn’t competitive.
All the stompa needs is a built in 5+ invul (it should be an aura) and a ~200+ points reduction.
Vineheart01 wrote: I actually was talking about the "ignore wound tracks" bit with a friend and felt like if that actually happened the Stompa would be fine as its costed, at worst needs another 50pts off.
Thats a ton of wounds you gotta get through and at no point does it become kinda worthless like everything with track wounds that isnt a FW Marine unit does.
Its still mega expensive though so i'd rather it be reworked so i can actually use it. Since Apoc is a thing i havnt had any urge to play a game beyond 2000pts anymore lol (note theyre actually pretty good in Apoc)
Not sure would that really help all that much...To be hindered by degration you would have to be alive first.
After talking it out, I don't think an Invuln is the way to go with the Stompa. Instead, consider the following changes.
+2 Toughness (meaning 99% of Anti-Armor Wounds on a 5+).
No degradation table (Stompas are towering piles of scrap with guns, powered by the Waagh. Short of destroying it entirely, it should be able to run at full effectiveness).
4+ Ramshackle (again, it's a big ol' tower of scrap. 50% of attacks on it should just dislodge a random piece of metal).
CptMendoza wrote: I am now the proud owner of two stompas - My roommate found a pair on ebay for 160 and I pulled the trigger honestly without much thought even though I know they're in a bad place right now.
I know they're not competitive but what are some things I can do to make them semi effective?
I think that the best thing you can do is to spend some time converting/painting them and play a game with them as is. If your FLG's current meta is anything like mine your opponent isn't going to bring a super competitive list anyway. As far as I can tell they aren't worth the points but I loved painting mine up and it's alot of fun just to have as a piece in my collection.
4+ ramshackle on its own is pretty nuts, Ramshackle is actually really freaking powerful, its just wasted on a 10W trukk.
Technically all of our vehicles should have that rule tbh. But definitely not a 4+ version, even a 5+ is pushing it.
CptMendoza wrote: I am now the proud owner of two stompas - My roommate found a pair on ebay for 160 and I pulled the trigger honestly without much thought even though I know they're in a bad place right now.
I know they're not competitive but what are some things I can do to make them semi effective?
I suppose you could make them Kustom Stompas, give them a pair of lifta droppas to put out a couple mortal wounds?
Considering that my main opponent is chaos soup with tons of invulns that's not a bad idea.
flandarz wrote:
CptMendoza wrote: I am now the proud owner of two stompas - My roommate found a pair on ebay for 160 and I pulled the trigger honestly without much thought even though I know they're in a bad place right now.
I know they're not competitive but what are some things I can do to make them semi effective?
Honestly? The best thing you can do is ask you opponent to take it easy on ya. Alternatively, see if they'll let you home rule that the Stompa ignores the degradation table. But even then, it's gonna be tough simply due to the nearly 50% of your point total cost, no inherent Invuln, and the abundance of anti-armor weapons in the game.
If nothing else they'll make great terrain pieces.
Kaptin_Grubkrumpa wrote:
CptMendoza wrote: I am now the proud owner of two stompas - My roommate found a pair on ebay for 160 and I pulled the trigger honestly without much thought even though I know they're in a bad place right now.
I know they're not competitive but what are some things I can do to make them semi effective?
I think that the best thing you can do is to spend some time converting/painting them and play a game with them as is. If your FLG's current meta is anything like mine your opponent isn't going to bring a super competitive list anyway. As far as I can tell they aren't worth the points but I loved painting mine up and it's alot of fun just to have as a piece in my collection.
I've been toying with a stompa mob idea with a stompa camping next to a mekboy workshop for the max shots buff + 2 double big zappa gargsqigs and a supreme command detachment with a souped up shokka and 2 weirdboys for fists of gork and smite.
You can also do Stompa+2 kill tanks with 2kff meks and 30 grotz for some cp and invluns for the tanks tossing the mekshop for better sidekicks to the stompa.
flandarz wrote: After talking it out, I don't think an Invuln is the way to go with the Stompa. Instead, consider the following changes.
+2 Toughness (meaning 99% of Anti-Armor Wounds on a 5+).
No degradation table (Stompas are towering piles of scrap with guns, powered by the Waagh. Short of destroying it entirely, it should be able to run at full effectiveness).
4+ Ramshackle (again, it's a big ol' tower of scrap. 50% of attacks on it should just dislodge a random piece of metal).
At most a 5+ ramshackle, and degredation to start for last 5-10 wounds. I also think they should be much slower, with the final degredation bringing them down to like a 3" move. No invulnerable, but I think a 6+++ would be thematic.
It should take a phenomenal amount of firepower to take down a Stompa, I can just see it stamping forward relentlessly having huge chunks blown off it, but still barrelling on until it finally grinds to a halt at the end of a trail of scrap and destruction in shuddering, smoking heap.
I think it should also have an ability to dish out MW on the charge, unless it already has it? It's been a while since I've even looked at its entry in the codex.
It could also do with a CC and shooty variant. Basically, 3 versions, like with battlewagons.
I think the coolest thing they could do with the stompa is a rule called something like "Orks is never destroyed" that triggers when it would have lost its last wound that restores all its wounds (i.e. removes the degradation) and makes it immune to all damage until the end of the player's next combat phase, at which point it dies the way it would have the turn before.
Both thematic (it's such a huge hunk of junk it takes a while for it to realize it's blown up) and deals with the main problem with the model, that it just gets blown up before it can do anything.
Stompas - kitbash and paint them nice. Magnetize the weapons. You will be finished in November, wait for chapter approved and then ask again
Honestly, after 7500p primed and about 3k full paint models, I'm don' t plan a lot. It takes time to finish the models and the meta change in the meantime
What really sucks are the new models - all buggies etc. They have no options. All have to looks like the same. Plus their design is ... how to say it .... candy for nuts? Squig buggy looks like ford ram, dragsta looks like formula 1 and the madmax grot on the bumber of the third one? And the stupid pseudo harley like “skulls with the flames” on the front wheel of deffkilla?
Older ork models have their own aesthetics. Original and very good. All flyiers, killkans and other walkers are nice except vanila stompa and maybe nauts. Burnas are great (design, not to play). Battlewagon is fine and even super old trukk is cool. And the FW Warboss on Bike or Big Trukk? Hey man, they are real pieces of art!
Plus a lot of them is pure heaven for kitbash. Jets? 3 differrent jets fromone sprue? No, no, no - you can make about 10-15 of them and all looks great. I' ve finished my first flash gitz and their gunz? Huge pack of fun in one box + you have great spare parts to improve your other models. I ' ve bought 2 packs of killkans just for the spare parts. And a]I don' t speak about the range of option in infantry - buy few packs of boyz, one pack of nobz and pne of lootas / burnas and you can kitbash almost anything. And twice more with pack of flash gitz.
I' ve promised myself do not glue a single buggy in the original design. And it' s a great fun. It takes a lot of time, but better to kitbash for a year then copy the same “you saw this joke in the movie blink blink“ 3 pieces per evening.
Right now, it only takes about a dozen unsaved Wounds (with anti-armor weaponry) to wipe a Stompa. Even a 4+ Ramshackle will only approximately double that. For 900 pts, I'd expect the thing to last me atleast 2 rounds of sustained firepower.
4+ Ramshackle IS pretty OP, but only of it loses the degradation table AND gets T10. Otherwise, it'll probably still go down in 1-2 turns, with half (or more) of that playtime being basically worthless.
And I agree that everything aside from Infantry should just HAVE Ramshackle as a base ability. Anything with less than like 18 Wounds is only gonna get to use it maybe once anyway. A 6+ just isn't a good enough chance to reduce damage.
But on the photos of Warhammer world I see the pictures of very funny cartoon-like ork army with gorkonaut and lootas, so who knows...
Nary a Shokk Attack Gun, just a bunch of screaming boys and Stormboyz. Awesome.
Automatically Appended Next Post: His list according to reddit.
“
I played against him - very scary list. As I remember it was 2 units of stormboyz, 2 units of boyz, big mek with kustom forcefield, painboy, 2x wierdboyz (both with da jump, one fists of Mork and one warpath), 2x warboss on bike, 1x waaaagh banner, 2 big units of gretchin and 1 small unit of gretchin.
I felt like I had a chance until I forgot how the timing works on declaring tremor shells, and the game rapidly turned against me from there.
Good event overall though and Simon is a great player“
This is one of the lists me and my roommate kinda came up with last night trying to make a stompa work @2k points. I don't play tourneys and honestly only play against my roommate's chaos soup. We went all in with the stompa mob detachment to give it the invuln and the character keyword for fists of gork. The kill tanks can be used in either main gun config depending on opponent I suppose, though I think the bursta is my preferred loadout.
You don't think it would have been better to bring the Stompa in a Supreme Command Detachment, for access to Kultur? Probably woulda saved ya 900ish pts too (unless you're married to the Kill Tanks). I don't think you can take Stompa Mob with that Detachment though, so maybe it's a wash?
stompa mob makes mo mention about needing 3 stompas (which i missed actually), it just says only stompas in that detachment benefit. Also its the Aux detachment that denies kultures, not supreme command enables it. Its just the only way to get a single LoW slot and still get kultures w/o a list of supers. Not like the stompa mob really offers much. A 5++ invul is nice but youre burning 2CP to get it (1 for detachment, 1 for extra relic). The two traits are another CP unless you for some god awful reason actually make the stompa your warlord (in that case why would you ever give him those and not Might Is Right, Brutal but Kunnin, or Big Killa Boss? Hell for that matter Ard as Nails would be better) The 1CP "Stomp stomp stomp" strat also wont really do much. You cant lock a stompa in combat as he can walk over infantry so nobody is gonna zerg it, i'd be surprised if hes in combat with even 10 models at once.
edit: now that i think about it....a T9 stompa with a 5+ invul relic....hmm...that could be annoying to deal with... i almost want to do that now just because of how hilarious it would be to see my opponent's face when i say how i did that...rofl
Yeah, the Stompa doesn't lend itself well to having a lot of CP to fall back on. Which means you REALLY want to get the most bang for your buck when you have to spend it. Unfortunately, none of the Stompa Mob's Stratagems are really good enough to justify only having like 6 CP to spend over the course of a game.
Technically yes but i wouldnt do that. He gets access to a 5++ via relics, he cant use any other relic anyway. Lot of the warlord traits for orks are downright brutal, but since the warboss is so easy to pick off they dont really do much. I wouldnt sacrifice one of those traits for +1 to my invul.
And no, stompa is not limited to those 2 traits. Every single detachment is worded the exact same way, "...you can give them..." keyword being "can" not "must" or "only" - Stompa one is worded only different to show that you cant take both traits, since its the only one that has more than 1 trait added in anyway. The difference between Stompa Mob and any other specialist detachment is "...can give them the following warlord trait" or "...can give them one of the following warlord traits" - i see no different other than accommodating theres multiples in the latter.
Otherwise our SSAG with Big Killa Boss is technically illegal. Dread Waaagh is worded the same. The only way you are forced to take the detachment traits is if you are using the Field Commander strat. I'm referring to making him your legit warlord, both saves a CP and honestly with barley enough points left for weirdboyz/grots what else you gonna make warlord? a weirdboy?
It literally says in the Stompa Mob description that you can give a stompa the character keyword but it can only choose the warlord traits and relic from the specialist detachment.
So no faction or clan warlord traits, unless they've errata'ed it somewhere I haven't seen.
Hmm interesting detail about Shadowsun in the new reveal, she lets the detachment she’s in take any sept, but she doesn’t benefit unless they take the overwatch one. So Ghazz will certainly be usable in any detachment too but probably doesn’t get klan rule unless you go Goff
acme2468 wrote: Hmm interesting detail about Shadowsun in the new reveal, she lets the detachment she’s in take any sept, but she doesn’t benefit unless they take the overwatch one. So Ghazz will certainly be usable in any detachment too but probably doesn’t get klan rule unless you go Goff
Maybe they’ll do this for all named characters. It would be cool to take Zagstruk, for instance, without having to take Goffs.
Not even really sure why they unlocked Shadowsun really.
It makes sense for Ghaz to be unlocked because his entire story is about bringing the klans together and using their strengths to the best he could think of. Were not talking about two branches of a military, were talking about pseudo-enemy/rival bands that if they dont have a bigger target to fight they will quickly fight each other. Getting that kind of mentality to work together is quite a feat.
The rule is called “Supreme Commander” it makes sense for her and Ghazz, because that what they are, no other characters have the same sole leadership of their entire races military forces.
Okay, seems like storm boyz are a valid option after all.
I do have another question that I would be happy if you can give me some feedback on. I am just about to re-base all my ork figures to 30mm bases and plan to magnetize them and make moment trays to them. The thing I am would like to have some input on is whether I should put them in a hexagonal lattice or a rectangular one. Rectangular is easier to build but hexagonal have the advantage to be denser but foremost it would in theory allow models to fight in three rows in CC due to the 3:ed row is just within 1’’ of the 1:st for 30mm bases. I it standard to allow models to fight in CC in three rows for 30mm bases, placed in an hexagonal lattice ,or would people accuse me of sheeting if I claim this?
acme2468 wrote: Hmm interesting detail about Shadowsun in the new reveal, she lets the detachment she’s in take any sept, but she doesn’t benefit unless they take the overwatch one. So Ghazz will certainly be usable in any detachment too but probably doesn’t get klan rule unless you go Goff
Maybe they’ll do this for all named characters. It would be cool to take Zagstruk, for instance, without having to take Goffs.
Wouldn't make too hasty conclusions from one model. They just released sister codex with order locked characters and DA got chapter locked special character as well.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nora wrote: Okay, seems like storm boyz are a valid option after all.
I do have another question that I would be happy if you can give me some feedback on. I am just about to re-base all my ork figures to 30mm bases and plan to magnetize them and make moment trays to them. The thing I am would like to have some input on is whether I should put them in a hexagonal lattice or a rectangular one. Rectangular is easier to build but hexagonal have the advantage to be denser but foremost it would in theory allow models to fight in three rows in CC due to the 3:ed row is just within 1’’ of the 1:st for 30mm bases. I it standard to allow models to fight in CC in three rows for 30mm bases, placed in an hexagonal lattice ,or would people accuse me of sheeting if I claim this?
Hardly cheating since bases allow that. You lose in practice just half a rank compared to 25mm base and that's assuming all could reach into combat anyway. Big difference will be it taking bit more time which benefits orks so in practice 32mm helps orks. Which is why I find amusing when people fret over it. Even in optimal case it's just half a rank which isn't going to be deciding things all that often, 25mm lose on board control and 32mm makes games take longer which helps orks as less turns the better for orks in general.
Take 5 empty bases on a paper sheet where you draw 2 circles of 1" thumb each, representing within 1" of 1" . You can see that you can fight in 3 rows, given your correct placement.
I was playing with 40 grot and 60 boyz, I though it was too few models, now I'm going 60 grot 90 boyz. I used to play 10 tankbustas and 2 dogs in battlewagon, now I go 15 tankbustas and 5 squiggs.
If you have some comments, we can discuss about that!
I was playing with 40 grot and 60 boyz, I though it was too few models, now I'm going 60 grot 90 boyz. I used to play 10 tankbustas and 2 dogs in battlewagon, now I go 15 tankbustas and 5 squiggs.
If you have some comments, we can discuss about that!
Yes. A few.
- move the tankbustas to bad moons. So you can eventually use the double shooting strat on them.
- change the goff detachment to evil suns. You will da jump one squad and walk the rest up the board. The faster the better. Also, +1 on the charge makes a world of difference.
I was playing with 40 grot and 60 boyz, I though it was too few models, now I'm going 60 grot 90 boyz. I used to play 10 tankbustas and 2 dogs in battlewagon, now I go 15 tankbustas and 5 squiggs.
If you have some comments, we can discuss about that!
Yes. A few.
- move the tankbustas to bad moons. So you can eventually use the double shooting strat on them.
- change the goff detachment to evil suns. You will da jump one squad and walk the rest up the board. The faster the better. Also, +1 on the charge makes a world of difference.
Goff was not planned, they are evil sunz, seems like my mistake at configuring it.
Point about bad moons is interesting, I make them evil sunz because I usually advance the battlewagon, so they do not shoot at 6's, if i do not advance the wagon, they are usually out of 24'' of the enemy tank.
- change the goff detachment to evil suns. You will da jump one squad and walk the rest up the board. The faster the better. Also, +1 on the charge makes a world of difference.
Goff was not planned, they are evil sunz, seems like my mistake at configuring it.
Point about bad moons is interesting, I make them evil sunz because I usually advance the battlewagon, so they do not shoot at 6's, if i do not advance the wagon, they are usually out of 24'' of the enemy tank.
Take Mad Dok. He's worth every point. You should never have a normal painboy if you have a DS detachment.
For 21 points you get: +1 WS, +1 T, +2 armour save, 6+ invul save, +1 FNP (for him), he gets a reroll to hit, to wound, damage, he can advance and charge with his insanity rule, he can fallback and charge with his insanity rule, and most importantly, his pain aura affects every clan instead. He's just more resistant to sniper fire and can krump way harder in CC with the +1 to hit and rerolls.
I'd consider Deathskulls for the wagon as well. It gets a 6+ invul in case its out of the KFF field. I think it's really up to you, though.
BM give them the chance to hop out and shoot twice
ES gives them extra threat range because you can advance
DS gives them wagon a bit more survivability and the boys inside a re-roll to wound
I recently used tankbustas as deathskulls in a trukk and a big trakk. They are insane, even without shoot twice, and even hitting on 6's. Full rerolls with explosions is nuts.
- change the goff detachment to evil suns. You will da jump one squad and walk the rest up the board. The faster the better. Also, +1 on the charge makes a world of difference.
Goff was not planned, they are evil sunz, seems like my mistake at configuring it.
Point about bad moons is interesting, I make them evil sunz because I usually advance the battlewagon, so they do not shoot at 6's, if i do not advance the wagon, they are usually out of 24'' of the enemy tank.
Take Mad Dok. He's worth every point. You should never have a normal painboy if you have a DS detachment.
For 21 points you get: +1 WS, +1 T, +2 armour save, 6+ invul save, +1 FNP (for him), he gets a reroll to hit, to wound, damage, he can advance and charge with his insanity rule, he can fallback and charge with his insanity rule, and most importantly, his pain aura affects every clan instead. He's just more resistant to sniper fire and can krump way harder in CC with the +1 to hit and rerolls.
I'd consider Deathskulls for the wagon as well. It gets a 6+ invul in case its out of the KFF field. I think it's really up to you, though.
BM give them the chance to hop out and shoot twice
ES gives them extra threat range because you can advance
DS gives them wagon a bit more survivability and the boys inside a re-roll to wound
I recently used tankbustas as deathskulls in a trukk and a big trakk. They are insane, even without shoot twice, and even hitting on 6's. Full rerolls with explosions is nuts.
I'll consider adding MDG instead of the painboy.
The point is that all the klan benefits go to lootas (usually), so I don't think putting tankbustas in BM would worth for me.
I've been thinking about DS invul and rerolling wounds, I supose it'll depend of the match
tulun wrote: Let’s just hope it’s a mixed MA kit. I’d love if the MA warboss makes a return if he ain’t super competitive.
Super unlikely. For one there would be rumours for that effect. For 2nd unless they want to totally retcon and screw fluff remember two things a) orks the bigger the stronger better ork you are b) ghaz is stated to be exceptionally large for an ork.
So if same model would make MA warboss either it would have to be significantly smaller than Ghaz or basically random warboss would be just as big as exceptionally large ghazkhul and as a result pretty much equally powerfull...completely neutering what makes Ghaz so special. He's biggest meanest ork. If every random MA warboss is equally big and mean...
Yeah Ghaz is supposed to be quite a bit larger than a warboss. They'd need to release a proper kit for the warboss, which woudl sell like freakin' hotcakes if it was decently priced and offered options for footboss, megaboss, jumpboss, and dakkaboss (proppa big gunz for shootin') - bikerboss would be a bit difficult to mold into a single kit but woudl be nice too.
that flexible kit isn't on the cards though with current GW. Also footboss and mega armoured ones wouldn't likely be feasible to make one kit that doesn't make basically 2...
But warboss with proper options ala sisters of battle canoness would be fun. MA boss would be another kit preferably with plenty of options as well. Before would have thought "options, HAH!" but sisters got throwback to actually having wargear options so maybe it's not so hopeless after all...
Automatically Appended Next Post: So. Tau got access to "no DS within 12" in psychic awakening book making life of da jump/tellyporta boyz even harder.
Specifically for ghostkeels though so its limited on who can use it.
Theres literally 0 tau in my area so i have no idea how common ghostkeels are. I know when i had tau still i used them all the dang time in 7th lol
Current GW is not going to give you a kit with lots of options for characters, the trend is very much towards making you buy two different models if you want, say, a big mek with SAG vs KFF. They're definitely not gonna give us a warboss that can be built as MA or normal, much less as a biker too. Definitely not Ghazz and normal warboss in one kit, either.
If you look on the bright side, it just gives you even more incentive to be propa orky and kitbash stuff yourself. At least as long as they still allow that...
yukishiro1 wrote: Current GW is not going to give you a kit with lots of options for characters, the trend is very much towards making you buy two different models if you want, say, a big mek with SAG vs KFF. They're definitely not gonna give us a warboss that can be built as MA or normal, much less as a biker too. Definitely not Ghazz and normal warboss in one kit, either.
If you look on the bright side, it just gives you even more incentive to be propa orky and kitbash stuff yourself. At least as long as they still allow that...
Well weapon options appear to be back as a possibility as well. Canoness has several pistols, melee weapons and heads as an options
GW is a bit odd recently. Sometimes they give no optiions like our buggies. Sometimes they give more than you'd expect like the dark angels Lazarus model. its possible we could get an unnamed warlord class hq from the ghaz kit.
cody.d. wrote: GW is a bit odd recently. Sometimes they give no optiions like our buggies. Sometimes they give more than you'd expect like the dark angels Lazarus model. its possible we could get an unnamed warlord class hq from the ghaz kit.
That would either have to be most creative kit ever or gw deciding to say major screw you fluff. Ghaz is supposed to be exceptionally big ork. And in orks size is might. So suddenly random warlords are equally strong and powerful as Ghaz? Seems silly even for GW
tulun wrote: Let’s just hope it’s a mixed MA kit. I’d love if the MA warboss makes a return if he ain’t super competitive.
Super unlikely. For one there would be rumours for that effect. For 2nd unless they want to totally retcon and screw fluff remember two things a) orks the bigger the stronger better ork you are b) ghaz is stated to be exceptionally large for an ork.
So if same model would make MA warboss either it would have to be significantly smaller than Ghaz or basically random warboss would be just as big as exceptionally large ghazkhul and as a result pretty much equally powerfull...completely neutering what makes Ghaz so special. He's biggest meanest ork. If every random MA warboss is equally big and mean...
Its for fluff reasons that having no current MA Warboss makes absolutely zero sense. Why would a boss let his Nobs take better armour (and potentially weapons) than himself?
There could be other warbosses of a similar size to Ghaz, perhaps not as big but not necessarily far off.
Been out of the loop for a while, saw Ghazzy is getting a new model! Any rumors on when? The leak said something about the Saga of the Beast? Couldnt find anything on what exactly that is though...
cody.d. wrote: GW is a bit odd recently. Sometimes they give no optiions like our buggies. Sometimes they give more than you'd expect like the dark angels Lazarus model. its possible we could get an unnamed warlord class hq from the ghaz kit.
I highly doubt so. Ghaz is a highly detailed center-piece model, representing the biggest ork in the 41st century, and he probably comes with Makari. You can't turn that into something by simply swapping heads like you can with Lazarus or the Canoness. Not to mention that the other warboss models would look like a joke next to a MA warboss that's the size of a dread.
What I meant is that a MA warboss could come with a sprue that allows for multiple options and maybe build into a named character like Nazdregg who is wearing power armour iirc.
What I meant is that a MA warboss could come with a sprue that allows for multiple options and maybe build into a named character like Nazdregg who is wearing power armour iirc.
While a fair bit of the recent "make your own doctrines mix-and-match" seem fairly uninspired (just basically parts of the original ones), I'm debating how they're going to do this for Orks. I can see us getting a GREAT WAAAGH! option instead of choosing Klanz and that it replaces the Klan keywords, and thus it gets to reflect how you can actually mix up different aspects of Klan traits without you being restricted. It ties in with Ghazzy leading the biggest WAAAGH! as well. Depending on if they would want to port over the AoS Big WAAAGH! style rules, our benefit for being run as a pure Ork army could be WAAAGH! points that gives us buffs depending on how many we have. I really like what they did with Scions, so if we get that kind of detail that would be really nice.
that would make more sense but they arent going to go through the hassle of thinking of something new for a non-imperial army that big. Guarantee we get kustom kultures, ghazzy, 1-2 relics, 1-2 stratagems, 1-2 new traits and thats that.
At best they call it "Kustom Waaagh!" and not "Kustom Kulture"
If GW is even SLIGHTLY paying attention to ork behavior in tournaments they'll know that if they dont unlock Ghaz he probably wont sell very well since a lot of people wont justify the (guessing but probably accurate) $60 pricetag for him when they really wont ever use him cause Goff sucks.
Nobody uses Goffs. Or Snakebites/Bloodaxes either but different point.
Currently as he is, not really that useful. His entire point is melee, and melee characters are hard to use if they arent jumppack users. Kinda why i wish the Waaagh Banner was way cheaper because a purely melee boon shoudlnt cost the same as a shooty boon, it should be way cheaper. If characters could "follow" a unit as they charge it wouldnt be as big of an issue. This is the main reason i dropped painboyz, the number of times i left him in the dirt because his charge failed annoyed me. He could get a needed makeover where he has purpose outside of melee, but of course melee is inevitable so when it happens he's ready to krump. I"d find it kinda odd if they gave him a bigger model and even gave him his grot buddy...and didnt change his rules.
Vineheart01 wrote: Currently as he is, not really that useful. His entire point is melee, and melee characters are hard to use if they arent jumppack users. Kinda why i wish the Waaagh Banner was way cheaper because a purely melee boon shoudlnt cost the same as a shooty boon, it should be way cheaper. If characters could "follow" a unit as they charge it wouldnt be as big of an issue. This is the main reason i dropped painboyz, the number of times i left him in the dirt because his charge failed annoyed me.
He could get a needed makeover where he has purpose outside of melee, but of course melee is inevitable so when it happens he's ready to krump. I"d find it kinda odd if they gave him a bigger model and even gave him his grot buddy...and didnt change his rules.
Can you imagine if they gave him the Chapter Master ability, and he could make the entire army re-roll all hits?
tulun wrote: Can you imagine if they gave him the Chapter Master ability, and he could make the entire army re-roll all hits?
He might show up in every list.
I don't think that's a "might"
In any case we know Makari is going to be carrying Thrakka's boss pole (Da Lucky Stikk) around, so it's fairly safe to assume that the grot will be providing some sort of aura. Worst case, it's just the Waaagh! Banner aura.
Ghazz will come. We know for sure. But the chances of getting a new kff mek are extremely high. Remember the rumour engine of an ork boot? Remeber how kff mek came back from death in CA19? I bet we get a new big mek mini.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Rule wise. Kutom kultures are almost guaranteed. However, what i would love to see if the waagh reworked. The concept has such potential that a simple buffing aura seems a wasted chance.
Imagine a Waagh rule, army wide, that gives buffs as the game progresses (the waagh gets momentum) ala DE (drukhary) style. I would argue that it makea more sense for orka than DE.
Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote: Rule wise. Kutom kultures are almost guaranteed. However, what i would love to see if the waagh reworked. The concept has such potential that a simple buffing aura seems a wasted chance.
I don't think it's guaranteed. There have been a couple of variants being handed out to non-marine factions:
- additional warlord trait, psychic power and relic for existing sub-factions
- build your own sub-faction
- warlord traits for regular units (biomorphs, tank ace)
The only guaranteed thing is that we will get a pile of stratagems and a name generator.
In addition, I think any custom culture would struggle to compete with deff skullz.
Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote: Rule wise. Kutom kultures are almost guaranteed. However, what i would love to see if the waagh reworked. The concept has such potential that a simple buffing aura seems a wasted chance.
I don't think it's guaranteed. There have been a couple of variants being handed out to non-marine factions:
- additional warlord trait, psychic power and relic for existing sub-factions
- build your own sub-faction
- warlord traits for regular units (biomorphs, tank ace)
The only guaranteed thing is that we will get a pile of stratagems and a name generator.
In addition, I think any custom culture would struggle to compete with deff skullz.
This
PA isn’t a new codex don’t expect reworked rules or point reductions.
At best you get new strategems that make certain units better.
I expect ghaz and the big Mek w kff and not a whole lot more.
The big Mek rules will be exactly the same.
Ghaz will get a new profile.
Most of the relics, warlord traits and strategems won’t be that great.
Because strategems don’t fix overpriced or to weak units... strategems are great at buffing shooting (orks already have some of the best shooting strats), great at deep striking (orks already have decent deepstriking strats) and strats are good at protecting units from shooting by making units harder to hit (orks already have one of the best w grot shielding).
So even if you look at every other armies strats and try to figure out what varient Gw could give us to help our army. At best I find the dark elf strat counter strategem which is cute but doesn’t help our units, and the -1 to hit from shooting if 12in away strat. That might help boy blobs charge across the field. It won’t help our mech lists which have a lot of small model count units.
Sadly we need profile changes or extreme updates like the super sag did to the SAG... we need our expensive units to have more invul saves, we need grot vehicles and units to benefit from clan traits even if Mek guns get raised in points. We need built in rules like the old bike dust cloud that made our bikes and buggies harder to hit...if our warbikers were like elder jet bikes with -2 to hit and had more shots they would be better. And ghaz should reroll all hits (or even 1s) in melee time any unit he is within range of. But we aren’t getting a codex update.
Non marine that didn'' get custom traits...are there? Don't recall. Those who didn't get are ones who logically wouldn't like tson and grey knights but those are marines.
Eldar, de, tyranids, tau, gsc, ig. Non marines, custom regiment@whatever
Because strategems don’t fix overpriced or to weak units... strategems are great at buffing shooting (orks already have some of the best shooting strats), great at deep striking (orks already have decent deepstriking strats) and strats are good at protecting units from shooting by making units harder to hit (orks already have one of the best w grot shielding).
Lootas went from overpriced trash nobody plays to autotake with codex with stratagems.
Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote: Rule wise. Kutom kultures are almost guaranteed. However, what i would love to see if the waagh reworked. The concept has such potential that a simple buffing aura seems a wasted chance.
I don't think it's guaranteed. There have been a couple of variants being handed out to non-marine factions:
- additional warlord trait, psychic power and relic for existing sub-factions
- build your own sub-faction
- warlord traits for regular units (biomorphs, tank ace)
The only guaranteed thing is that we will get a pile of stratagems and a name generator.
In addition, I think any custom culture would struggle to compete with deff skullz.
Maybe. I would gladly trade the 6++ for something else, if nothing more, just to have an excuse to bring kffs back.
Whatever PA brings in, I hope bikers get some love.
Automatically Appended Next Post: FW update on the other hand. That's something I really look forward
tneva82 wrote: Lootas went from overpriced trash nobody plays to autotake with codex with stratagems.
This.
Stratagems could make or break any number of our "trash" units, including kanz, burna boyz, battlewagons or the bommers (doom scythe stratagem for blitza bommers anyone?).
Yeah stompa is pretty hard to fix with stratagem without making stratagem totally silly like 3++ or something but other units have got stratagems in pa that have made mark and some non marines have got useful help. No quarantee orks get but not impossible either. Full fix ain't in cards but some units could be improved enough to help orks out a bit
A stratagem strong enough to make a stompa worth it would probably be a 3-4CP strat, as thats adding a TON of power to it given how overpriced it is.
A simple machine spirit type stratagem the Admech have would help a lot (1cp, it fights as if its in its top bracket that round) but even then its not the greatest investment.
KFF Mek is probably coming but i'd be shocked if it had any rule changes. At absolute best they give it a proper option for a KMB so he can do something other than stand there. And even that i doubt.
If I was wishlisting for PA, I'd wish for the BM with KFF to have the ability to have the bubble when embarked on a transport. That would help a great deal, ease the pain of losing the BM on warbike and would help with the sale of the new model.
And the painboys to return to the original 5+fnp bubble.
Vineheart01 wrote: If GW is even SLIGHTLY paying attention to ork behavior in tournaments they'll know that if they dont unlock Ghaz he probably wont sell very well since a lot of people wont justify the (guessing but probably accurate) $60 pricetag for him when they really wont ever use him cause Goff sucks.
Nobody uses Goffs. Or Snakebites/Bloodaxes either but different point.
Gruxz wrote: If I was wishlisting for PA, I'd wish for the BM with KFF to have the ability to have the bubble when embarked on a transport. That would help a great deal, ease the pain of losing the BM on warbike and would help with the sale of the new model.
And the painboys to return to the original 5+fnp bubble.
Those 2 things would aid us Orks tremendously.
I could even see it as part of a stratagem or warlord trait, since tempestus have a warlord trait for one of their sub-doctrines to be able to order whilst inside a transport.
Vineheart01 wrote: If GW is even SLIGHTLY paying attention to ork behavior in tournaments they'll know that if they dont unlock Ghaz he probably wont sell very well since a lot of people wont justify the (guessing but probably accurate) $60 pricetag for him when they really wont ever use him cause Goff sucks.
Nobody uses Goffs. Or Snakebites/Bloodaxes either but different point.
man....I hope he's ONLY 60 bucks...
Cawl is the only other named character that would be similar sized and hes 55bucks. Ghazzy would probably be less spindlely but overall thicker so 5 more bucks.
He could be more, but this sounds right to me.
Vineheart01 wrote: If GW is even SLIGHTLY paying attention to ork behavior in tournaments they'll know that if they dont unlock Ghaz he probably wont sell very well since a lot of people wont justify the (guessing but probably accurate) $60 pricetag for him when they really wont ever use him cause Goff sucks.
Nobody uses Goffs. Or Snakebites/Bloodaxes either but different point.
man....I hope he's ONLY 60 bucks...
Cawl is the only other named character that would be similar sized and hes 55bucks. Ghazzy would probably be less spindlely but overall thicker so 5 more bucks.
He could be more, but this sounds right to me.
Sadly 60 US bucks is like 70-80 CAD, and I can only imagine how much in AUD. Why do the Brits hate their former (AND LOYAL) colonies so? :(
Vineheart01 wrote: If GW is even SLIGHTLY paying attention to ork behavior in tournaments they'll know that if they dont unlock Ghaz he probably wont sell very well since a lot of people wont justify the (guessing but probably accurate) $60 pricetag for him when they really wont ever use him cause Goff sucks.
Nobody uses Goffs. Or Snakebites/Bloodaxes either but different point.
man....I hope he's ONLY 60 bucks...
Cawl is the only other named character that would be similar sized and hes 55bucks. Ghazzy would probably be less spindlely but overall thicker so 5 more bucks.
He could be more, but this sounds right to me.
Sadly 60 US bucks is like 70-80 CAD, and I can only imagine how much in AUD. Why do the Brits hate their former (AND LOYAL) colonies so? :(
Import taxes.
Can we speculate/wishlist for what Stratagems/things we'd like to see? I'm going to anyway - tell me to remove if you don't want them here Jid, they're more for fun than competitiveness.
1. An auto explode vehicle stratagem. It's criminal that Orks don't have an auto explode strat when other factions do.
2. A stratagem or clan trait that allows Boys to disembark and then move and/or assault. Let's make Trukks great again!
3. A stratagem or clan trait that allows Ork units to fire at 4+ BS.
4. A way to make a "Painboss" - upgraded Painboy HQ that maybe gives 5+++ and can revive models.
5. Give us Megabosses back or make Ghazzy cross clan.
6. A way to make Bikers useful, perhaps via custom clans (-1 to hit Speedfreeks please).
7. Grot Shields for bikes.
8. D6 Burnas for the love of Gork!
9. LoOtEd VeHiClES matched play rules and something to make Gunwagons useful.
10. A psychic power that turns enemies into a Squig or summons Squigs.
11. Reverse "Da Jump" (works on an enemy unit).
12. Something to give standard Power Klaws their anti-vehicle status back (extra damage vs vehicles or something?).
tneva82 wrote: Non marine that didn'' get custom traits...are there? Don't recall. Those who didn't get are ones who logically wouldn't like tson and grey knights but those are marines.
Eldar, de, tyranids, tau, gsc, ig. Non marines, custom regiment@whatever
Because strategems don’t fix overpriced or to weak units... strategems are great at buffing shooting (orks already have some of the best shooting strats), great at deep striking (orks already have decent deepstriking strats) and strats are good at protecting units from shooting by making units harder to hit (orks already have one of the best w grot shielding).
Lootas went from overpriced trash nobody plays to autotake with codex with stratagems.
Lootas were always ok and they are still ok being slightly better w badmoons and definitely not auto take anymore. That badmoon shooting strat is already one of the best shooting strat in game and isn’t locked to lootas. My point was you aren’t getting a whole lot better. Just read my quote I mentioned shooting teleport and negative to hit strats being the one if the few helpful strats.
Want a good relic let’s hope they bring back the super KFF with a 4++ invul....
I now have the mental image of grots zooming along on tiny grot bikes which do almost nothing except create clouds of dust and smoke, and perhaps auto-explode if they run into anything. Do it, GW!
While I imagine the KFF Mek will have the same basic stats, his gear could certainly change, as that's going to be entirely dependent on how the model is sculpted and what extras (if any) they could cram onto the sprue. I really doubt there'd be more than two "alt" weapons, but I could absolutely see some combination of KMB, KMS (though hopefully not), burna, killsaw, or big choppa as options. Hopefully at least a KMB, just so he can contribute.
I now have the mental image of grots zooming along on tiny grot bikes which do almost nothing except create clouds of dust and smoke, and perhaps auto-explode if they run into anything. Do it, GW!
oh god that would be hilarious. Shoota mounted on the bike so they have some form of dakka but otherwise their entire purpose is kicking up dustclouds.
mental image: you see a battlewagon driving at you and a bunch of grots on bikes around it. One of them drives infront of the wagon, attempts to shout as he lets go of the steering and tumbles over as the wagon just plonks right over him. The ork driving the wagon laughs and steps on the gas more.
I just imagine its a sidecar, and as the ork is speeding up the board the grot pulls out a hatchet and chops the strap of leather that's holding it on to the bike and as the bike keeps going forward, the grot just goes rolling on, drifting towards a group of unsuspecting smurfs.
If Grots get little Grot bikes, surely they are pedal only. No Mek will waste time on a little grot engine and the idea of Grots furiously pedalling to keep up with an actual bike is too good to pass up in my head.
Pedal power? You think too small. Obviously they got a little Squig on a hamster wheel providing the power to the wheels. Probably with a delectable Snotling bait dangling in front of it for motivation.
I really would like to see more ork bikes, but looking at the design of orks in 8th, seems like they will give us more dakka in any way (Stratagem, relic...) and feth off
warbikers need their exhaust cloud back. The staple reason for their existence removed and the statline not reflecting it.
As they are, until theyre like 13-15pts a pop, warbikers are just bad. If they dont get locked in melee with something that cant reliably hurt them they are instantly dead, -1 to hit stratagem doesnt do diddly with how easy S7 AP1/2 2D guns are massed.
I think Orkz are just in a weird place where GW sees us as a "hurl lots of cheap models at your opponent" army, and also a "field a group of elite warriors", but our statlines are too poor for the latter and our point-costs (Gretchin aside) are too high for the former. So we're in this place in the middle where we need to rely on gimmicks to be viable.
It’s also the fact as this edition bloats up it gets further and further shooting focused with melee being less viable ghaz at best may make boy blobs stronger in melee.
We won’t get it but the relic kff at 4++ would be HUGE.
Quite frankly i find it really annoying the Mega Force Field went away. One of the VERY FEW things in 7th edition codex that was awesome was a 4++ aura bubble via relics. I was shocked to see that missing, especially since they still didnt give us back our innate invuls (badrukk/ghaz nonwithstanding). Yeah they at least gave us Deathskullz invul but Cybork Body is still a pathetic FNP isntead of a 5++ like it used to be. If they gave that back to us in PA....oh...oh boy....fun times ahead....
no way they give us, at the moment, a 4++ invul kff.
We have a lot of semi-competitive viable units (kommandos, stormboyz, deffkoptas, gorkanauts...) but very few highly competitive units (boyz, gretch, mek gunz).
I think they should check it, I understand orks are a horde army, but we can be an ork army without 200 boyz, we can have 50 boyz, 50 kommando, 50 stormboyz... and still be an horde army, with some mix units, not always the same.
Kommandos costing the same as a boy would be fine for me, and stormboyz -1 cost (costing 7 like a boy would be too much, cuz they are really fast).
I've just seen in battlescribe, Bomb squigs count as gretchlin, so even if they are evil sunz, they got a -1 to hit if they advance, jesus.
Kebabcito wrote: no way they give us, at the moment, a 4++ invul kff.
We have a lot of semi-competitive viable units (kommandos, stormboyz, deffkoptas, gorkanauts...) but very few highly competitive units (boyz, gretch, mek gunz).
I think they should check it, I understand orks are a horde army, but we can be an ork army without 200 boyz, we can have 50 boyz, 50 kommando, 50 stormboyz... and still be an horde army, with some mix units, not always the same.
Kommandos costing the same as a boy would be fine for me, and stormboyz -1 cost (costing 7 like a boy would be too much, cuz they are really fast).
I've just seen in battlescribe, Bomb squigs count as gretchlin, so even if they are evil sunz, they got a -1 to hit if they advance, jesus.
While it’s a very useful tool, Battlescribe isn’t a perfect replacement for the official rules and as such doesn’t always have everything completely correct. Check your codex to see that in this case your supposition isn’t right - the Tankbusta datasheet and the Grots heading on page 124 have all the information you need. I hope that doesn’t come across as rude, I’m just trying to be concise.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Can we speculate/wishlist for what Stratagems/things we'd like to see? I'm going to anyway - tell me to remove if you don't want them here Jid, they're more for fun than competitiveness.
Eh, nothing much happening in competitive ork town right now anyways. Everyone is waiting for PA.
1. An auto explode vehicle stratagem. It's criminal that Orks don't have an auto explode strat when other factions do.
Yes! My DG are one of the three factions that can mess with explosions, and it's insanely powerful. An exploding PBC showering half an eldar army in d3 mortal wounds has won games for me.
2. A stratagem or clan trait that allows Boys to disembark and then move and/or assault. Let's make Trukks great again!
And battlwagons!
3. A stratagem or clan trait that allows Ork units to fire at 4+ BS.
Hum. It would be way over the top as a clan trait, and for stratagems we already got plenty that help a single shooting unit. I'd prefer something that specifically works on big shootas, rokkits or KMB, like some other army's stratagems do.
4. A way to make a "Painboss" - upgraded Painboy HQ that maybe gives 5+++ and can revive models.
Sure, why not? Currently pain boyz kind of lack a reason to exist.
5. Give us Megabosses back or make Ghazzy cross clan.
Honestly, I can run anything from legends and I still wouldn't run a megaboss. While not being clan locked is preferable, I put him in a goff detachment before. If disembarking after moving becomes a thing, goff bonebreakas look like a really good idea.
6. A way to make Bikers useful, perhaps via custom clans (-1 to hit Speedfreeks please).
Yes! -1 for all speed freeks would instantly catapult the army into competitive territory.
7. Grot Shields for bikes.
Due to the lack of grot bikers, I doubt this will be a thing.
8. D6 Burnas for the love of Gork!
Something interesting I discussed with someone else would be giving them a stratagem that give +1 to wound for the rest of the turn. This would help both their flamers and their melee.
9. LoOtEd VeHiClES matched play rules and something to make Gunwagons useful.
I toyed around with the looted vehicle rule a bit, even if you could use them in matched play, the only thing worth considering would be a cart with two skorchas and six shootas - but it would still struggle to compete with any of the new buggies.
The problem of all those models is that non of our turret weapons are worth bringing a 100+ points chassis.
10. A psychic power that turns enemies into a Squig or summons Squigs.
Bring Ol'Zogwort back!
11. Reverse "Da Jump" (works on an enemy unit).
I don't think moving enemy units will ever come back since the whip prince debacle in 5th. More powers would be welcome though.
12. Something to give standard Power Klaws their anti-vehicle status back (extra damage vs vehicles or something?).
It's pretty safe to assume that making them flat 3 damage while keeping the hit modifier would do that. Orks really need thunder hammers.
Any other ideas?
- A stratagem to keep units from falling back would be ace.
- Something to help blitza bommers find their place, like having a chance of the bomb affecting nearby units as well.
- Give FLY to a speed freeks unit for one turn
- Stratagems specifically targeted at killa kanz, maybe something like the fire frenzy that helbrutes get (fight/shoot again for 1 CP)
- Kommandoz can deep strike if they set up wholly within terrain, outside 1" of enemy models
- Nobz are da biggest and da best, a stratagem that improves their combat efficiency against characters, monsters and vehicles
- Relic Waaagh! Banner, relic KFF, relic MA - Big Mek custom-jobs for vehicles, similar to biomorphs or tank ace let ork vehicles take warlord traits.
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Vineheart01 wrote: warbikers need their exhaust cloud back. The staple reason for their existence removed and the statline not reflecting it.
As they are, until theyre like 13-15pts a pop, warbikers are just bad. If they dont get locked in melee with something that cant reliably hurt them they are instantly dead, -1 to hit stratagem doesnt do diddly with how easy S7 AP1/2 2D guns are massed.
My biggest gripe with the stratagem is the timing, if I could use it at the start of a battle round, it would already be much better.
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Kebabcito wrote: no way they give us, at the moment, a 4++ invul kff.
I think they should check it, I understand orks are a horde army, but we can be an ork army without 200 boyz, we can have 50 boyz, 50 kommando, 50 stormboyz... and still be an horde army, with some mix units, not always the same.
In 5th a top competitive battlewagon bash would run 20+20+12 ork boyz at 2k points, a kan wall would run 4-5x 20 at 1500. Before 8th orks have never had to run this many boyz.
I dont think giving us a 4++ KFF back would be that big a deal. It would be limited to a Big Mek, as we cant make the Wazbom or Mork a character to take relics. Thus, it would be slow to move around or only affect the transport its in. The main things the 4++ would massively help are things that want to surge forward as fast as possible (wagons, trukks, nauts, bikers). They would leave the KFF in the dirt, and would limit it to a Turn1 bonus. Nauts depending on bigmek advance rolls could still be in range for an extra turn though. Yeah that KFF stratagem would be bonkers but that can only be used once, and again, only super effective in the first round.
The whole "wholly within 9 inches" crap makes it difficult to use on larger/faster targets.
Also while i hope we get an auto-explode strat i kinda hope it doesnt affect nauts. Ive had a naut explode on me 4 times, and all 4 times it took out almost its points worth of crap at the same time. 9" D6 mortals is rude.
edit: nevermind that a Vindecare would just eat that bigmek, since its solely dependent on the 4++ and no invuls allowed. And even with it the sheer amount of snipershots marines have been bringing would kill him fairly quick anyway.
For Orkz, you want to lean into one strat no matter the points you got to play with. Otherwise, you're just giving your opponents prime targets for all the weapons in their TAC lists.
flandarz wrote: For Orkz, you want to lean into one strat no matter the points you got to play with. Otherwise, you're just giving your opponents prime targets for all the weapons in their TAC lists.
Yeah fair enough. Just looking at that level seems like you just barely get a section of the army you want. That extra 500 is massive.
Honestly if we got the relic KFF, I’d take a MA big Mek. He sucks, but getting a 2+, 4++, then maybe even a painboy to protect him would make him sniper resistant. Gets an extra wound plus the oiler.
tneva82 wrote: Non marine that didn'' get custom traits...are there? Don't recall. Those who didn't get are ones who logically wouldn't like tson and grey knights but those are marines.
Eldar, de, tyranids, tau, gsc, ig. Non marines, custom regiment@whatever
Because strategems don’t fix overpriced or to weak units... strategems are great at buffing shooting (orks already have some of the best shooting strats), great at deep striking (orks already have decent deepstriking strats) and strats are good at protecting units from shooting by making units harder to hit (orks already have one of the best w grot shielding).
Lootas went from overpriced trash nobody plays to autotake with codex with stratagems.
Lootas were always ok and they are still ok being slightly better w badmoons and definitely not auto take anymore. That badmoon shooting strat is already one of the best shooting strat in game and isn’t locked to lootas. My point was you aren’t getting a whole lot better. Just read my quote I mentioned shooting teleport and negative to hit strats being the one if the few helpful strats.
Want a good relic let’s hope they bring back the super KFF with a 4++ invul....
Eh really? Who used them before codex? Don't mention bad moon because before stratagems were no klans either.
But ok. Don't use any stratagems with lootas. Think they are good? Seriously?
Lootas had the same problem most Orkz units had before the Codex: too fragile for too many points. It didn't matter that they had tons of shots, because they'd be wiped T1. Quite literally the only thing that makes them good now is the fact you can increase their durability by using Grot Shields.
tulun wrote: Best 1000 point lists I assume just really lean into one strat?
IE: Mass a mini greentide or you go full in on big mech stuff? (Dreads, Wagons, Bikes, Koptas, Buggies)
If you're going to be competitive, then I'd say go for GT list and getting as many CP as you can. BUut on the other hand, it's really fun to do a 1k speed freeks list. I've fund mine to actually be pretty decent for a EDIT "Non-competitive" EDIT list in this meta.
If you're going to be competitive, then I'd say go for GT list and getting as many CP as you can. BUut on the other hand, it's really fun to do a 1k speed freeks list. I've fund mine to actually be pretty decent for a "competitive" list in this meta.
What do you field?
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T1nk4bell wrote: Even with bad moon strat they are more or less meh at the moment.
To much ivenstment for what they do
Yeah. I feel the same way.
It’s a shame because I even like the models. And tankbustas, another shooty elite unit, works incredibly well without stratagem spam. Flash gits are the same.
6 Various Buggies (a mixture of SJD, MSJ, and KBB)
4 Units of min war bikes.
1-2 Deffkoptas or Stormboyz
I'm sure that there are better ways to run the list, but as I said, I'm not running them to be super competitive. They're surprisingly durable and very fast so getting objectives is pretty easy.
flandarz wrote: For Orkz, you want to lean into one strat no matter the points you got to play with. Otherwise, you're just giving your opponents prime targets for all the weapons in their TAC lists.
Yeah fair enough. Just looking at that level seems like you just barely get a section of the army you want. That extra 500 is massive.
Honestly if we got the relic KFF, I’d take a MA big Mek. He sucks, but getting a 2+, 4++, then maybe even a painboy to protect him would make him sniper resistant. Gets an extra wound plus the oiler.
the grot orderly can eat any shot that ignores invuls or gets through. And honestly first turn when he’s needed most your hiding him behind a naut/battlewagon/ruins/etc anyway...
Im not worried about a vindicare Or any sniper he can’t shoot what he can’t see. And after first turn your army is starting to break up and either teleported, or advancing toward the enemy faster then the big Mek can move... you either advance him with one of your units or keep him back to protect your lootas/Mek guns. I think the mega kff would make a good relic that helps against one of our biggest issues losing first turn and being shot off the board.
Honestly, I think Orks are in a pretty good place balance wise...it's just that Numarines are so ridiculously, never-before-in-history-level overpowered, and they seem to counter us particularly hard. It's kinda the opposite of Asuryani, who do particularly well against Marines and therefore can sorta hold their own in a Numarine dominant meta even though they aren't that overpowered overall.
If they return them to something approaching balance Orks will be near top-tier again IMO, especially if the PA book gives us anything worthwhile.
It's important to remember that our viability is dependent on our Stratagems, and without them we tend to crumple hard. I'd personally prefer to see us in a place where we can be good without having to rely on Strats and gimmicks (like skew).
Kebabcito wrote: Won a tournament yesterday with 90 boyz, grots, lootas, tankbustas, 2 sag and stuff.
Last match, against imperial guard + knight, I destroyed everything in 1 turn, was like wtf.
I think orks are pretty strong, the problem is when our hardest match up, marines, become competitive and everyone plays them.
Waiting for PA
I agree. Orks are pretty strong rn, imo. I play in a meta that has no marine players, so I tend to do pretty well. Then again, we don't play tournaments so that might be the reason...
It is the lack of Marines. When you combine how overpowered they are with how hard they counter us, it becomes a hugely uphill struggle, unless you get that one game in 12 where your variable dakka comes up trumps and you wipe half their army in one shooting phase.
The competitive nature of your area has a big factor too.
Orks have a rather high "low-bar" - that is, the crappiest they perform is a lot higher than other armies. But their "high bar" or "optimized" performance isnt much better than their crappiest. (ignoring player ignorance of rules or stratagems)
My area does have a lot of marines, but only a couple of them are actually trying to optimize, but since they dont do tournaments they still arent fully optimized and lethal. Thus i win a lot, most of my losses are blamed on dice luck not my performance. But im no fool i know if i faced any of those lists that are appearing in top10 of tournaments i'd get my face kicked in pretty quick.
From looking at my area alone, orks are OP right now lol.
I Got paid a Compliment of sorts yesterday, We were doing a Practice for ATC scrimmage, So I was filling in for some team members that weren't there, The other side put out a NidZilla type list, So Many Carnifexes , And My Ork Mechanized list and an IronHands Dread heavy list were put up against it, And He Picked the Marines to Fight! Lol, mainly My Airwing concerned him, plus he was using the "Nid, Can't hit me stuff" that is mostly useless against us. but Still pretty Funny IMO
I need one clarification, I'm planning to bring 30*2 boyz+20 or more stormboyz as Evil sunz next GT. Making some calculations looks like Zhadsnark is one dead primaris better than the regular boss and it would save me 1cp. Altought his price and rules are not clear.
* His price as a model on FW is 110, da Klaw costs 0, the 2 big shootas on bike costs 6 points each, however, we never paid for the shootas on bike for characters, did we? Battlescribe put him at 120 , which is than wrong should be 122, wahapedia at 110.
Which one is it?
* Another weird thing is that the warboss can give advance and charge to infantry and bikes, therefore to himself, where Zhad gives the ability only to infantry, therefore not to himself. Is that right? Are they THAT stupid at FW?
Automatically Appended Next Post: I just checked and there are no FAQ about this
Hi all. Just a question about freebooterz. If I have two units of freebooterz in a list but they are in a bad moons detachment, can the freebooterz clan trait be triggered. E.g. one unit of flash gitz kills a unit does the other flash gitz get the +1 to hit even if the detachment they are in is bad moons?
But on similar note if you for some weirdo reason had freeboota detachment and flashgit on another non-freebota detachment could the flashgit trigger it for pure freeboota detachment?
Albeit mostly theoretical. Cant' come with any sensible reason to actually do that.
tneva82 wrote: But on similar note if you for some weirdo reason had freeboota detachment and flashgit on another non-freebota detachment could the flashgit trigger it for pure freeboota detachment?
Albeit mostly theoretical. Cant' come with any sensible reason to actually do that.
Good question,
Add 1 to hit rolls for attacks made by models with this kultur if any other friendly unit with this kultur within 24" has destroyed an enemy unit this phase.
Flash gits in another detachment would have the FREEBOOTA keyword, but not the culture. So the answer would be "no".
How do you play the pirates? 240 points + 84 badrukk + 64/120 vehicle cost too much, they are super exposed to damage as they reach 24'', they are heavy, you need to activate his kulture...
I'm not sure how to play them.
I'm planning to replace them for my 15 tankbustas+5 dogs + battlewagon depending of the matchup, so I would play 15 lootas and 10 pirates + badrukk against tyranids and stuff (no vehicles), what do you think about that?
You protect them with grot shields, there really is no other way.
Heavy just means they hit just as good as all other ork units when not standing still. Moving them into range of better targets is always better than standing still and hitting an inferior target with BS4.
Kebabcito wrote: How do you play the pirates? 240 points + 84 badrukk + 64/120 vehicle cost too much, they are super exposed to damage as they reach 24'', they are heavy, you need to activate his kulture...
I'm not sure how to play them.
I'm planning to replace them for my 15 tankbustas+5 dogs + battlewagon depending of the matchup, so I would play 15 lootas and 10 pirates + badrukk against tyranids and stuff (no vehicles), what do you think about that?
Aaand, Loot it! As soon as the vehicle gets destroyed. Preferably you should park it such that when it gets destroyed (and it will) you can disembark on cover for a 2+ goddess save. If freebootas, I think is better to play 2 units of 5 than one of 10. Twice the show off potential and one can trigger the trait for the other.
I’m sorry but seeing those pictures makes my inner mekboy 
Every single one built exactly the same and painted exactly the same, he should be ashamed That man is no Hero, He is a Codex User.
ORKS DON’T BUILD CARBON COPYS it’s fine to build one of each buggy to the directions, but you damn well convert the second and third ones 
