Kebabcito wrote: How do you play the pirates? 240 points + 84 badrukk + 64/120 vehicle cost too much, they are super exposed to damage as they reach 24'', they are heavy, you need to activate his kulture...
I'm not sure how to play them.
I'm planning to replace them for my 15 tankbustas+5 dogs + battlewagon depending of the matchup, so I would play 15 lootas and 10 pirates + badrukk against tyranids and stuff (no vehicles), what do you think about that?
Aaand, Loot it! As soon as the vehicle gets destroyed. Preferably you should park it such that when it gets destroyed (and it will) you can disembark on cover for a 2+ goddess save. If freebootas, I think is better to play 2 units of 5 than one of 10. Twice the show off potential and one can trigger the trait for the other.
And then you can only loot it for one of them...Plus as Jidmah pointed out people are gearing up to kill flashgit type of stuff. Without AP ignoring ability they die in droves anyway.
Kebabcito wrote: The point is that you're paying more to hit harder, so if you're going 5's probably not worth (I did not the math, just saying, you know).
I did do the math, and it's still worth it. You are looking on 5-6 hits instead of 8 on average for a unit of 5 - dice luck has just as much more impact on your rolls. You should plan towards having them stand still and shoot starting T2 for extra damage, but they aren't immobile by a long shot.
Badrukk's shooting is legit what are you talking about?
That guy has done some major work for me. I'd rather have him than a warboss, since a warboss wont do anything until hes in melee and often dies pretty fast in melee.
True but i also virtually never get those abilities unless someone is actually charging at me for once.
Dajumped boyz are never near a boss and most my army is mechanized anyway.
Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote: If freebootas, I think is better to play 2 units of 5 than one of 10. Twice the show off potential and one can trigger the trait for the other.
The trouble with that is you can't grot shield any more (well you can, but only one of them, so they can just immediately switch targets to the other and eliminate it).
Pirates are so pricey and so dangerous that without grot shields they're basically just an invitation to be eliminated, especially in this meta where everyone loads up on weapons specifically designed to kill 2W models with a decent armor save.
They also don't work great in vehicles, because embarked models aren't within x inches of anything, so you can't possibly get the +1 to hit bonus or the bonus from badrukk.
If you want to run freebootas, it's best to run a bunch of grot shields and mek gunz IMO. Mek gunz don't benefit from the +1 but they do trigger it for the orks who have it. So you can use your other shooting to weaken something, a mek gun to eliminate it, and then your pirates can go to town.
If the transport is freeboota, they still get the +1 due to Open Topped. You're correct they wont get Badrukk though, since reroll 1's is not a modifier
I actually like having them in a trukk because barring some insanely bad dice rolls when it blows up only the 2 ammo runts died and bam 3+ armor gitz. Park it near terrain and theyre in cover now so 2+ armor. Having them near a vehicle isnt enough, nobody is going to be that dumb to shoot at a random trukk or mek gunz thats right next to a much, much deadlier threat. I say "barring some insanely bad dice" because the first time i tried that i legit rolled 8 1s...out of 12...
Vineheart01 wrote: If the transport is freeboota, they still get the +1 due to Open Topped.
Have they ever done an official FAQ on that? Last time I checked it was still a debate (not just for freebotas obviously, but the general idea that open-topped transports pass on buffs to their embarked units).
The freeboota aura is +1 to hit, which is a modifier. Open Topped specifically says it confers modifier bonuses and penalties to its occupants. Technically if you could put nonfreebootas in a freeboota vehicle they would get the bonus too, because theyre not getting the freeboota bonus theyre getting the open topped transfer
Yes theres no way to actually do that. i was saying "if you could" it would still give them the bonus because its not the freeboota perk granting it in this situation.
Vineheart01 wrote: Badrukk's shooting is legit what are you talking about?
That guy has done some major work for me. I'd rather have him than a warboss, since a warboss wont do anything until hes in melee and often dies pretty fast in melee.
He’s fine. I like his gun. But I’m not fielding 7-8 HQs. If you are going all out, you’re fielding 3 SAGs, 2 weirdboys at least. Then probably a KFF and a boss or Wartrike for auras.
Baddruks aura grants something like 2-3 extra hits for a full unit of gits. Not nothing, but you know what generates more hits? Buying 3-4 more gits.
His aura scales better if you buy more units, but I don’t think y’all field 30 of them.
If you're fielding Gitz, I'm gonna assume you want them to be as effective as possible, simply because they're stupid expensive. In that case, Badrukk is a good investment as he improves your Gitz, himself, and has a decent gun and durability to go along with it. I've found you can usually pretty easily drop a single SAG to fit him in (they cost about the same), without really losing much in terms of firepower (again, he has a pretty good gun).
Simply Its a Defskull Batt. Dread Waaagh with 2 Big Meks, (one Warlord and Supa of course) 3x10 Grots, ,1xMegatrak, 1xKustom Boosta, Lootas x10, SmashaGunzx3 Trukk, Then a Goff Batt. with Two weird boys , 2 Shoota BoysX20 grotsx25 2x Battlewagons Deff-rollas, Then a Deffskull Airwing, with Dakkajet, Burnabommer, Wazzbomb
When I can go first I've got a lot of punch that can tear up a marine army to give me a chance. and it plays reasonably quickly.
flandarz wrote: If you're fielding Gitz, I'm gonna assume you want them to be as effective as possible, simply because they're stupid expensive. In that case, Badrukk is a good investment as he improves your Gitz, himself, and has a decent gun and durability to go along with it. I've found you can usually pretty easily drop a single SAG to fit him in (they cost about the same), without really losing much in terms of firepower (again, he has a pretty good gun).
I think it’s fine to field him.
I’m just unsure it’s strictly better to lose a SAG for it.
1x 10 man squad of gits or 2x 5 man squads is still quite strong without it. I think people complain gits are expensive because they think baddruk is a required part of the package.
I'm excited! I'm very tempted to start painting for different Kultures. I"m Bad Moonz all day long but now I want to have some blue and red boys for my Great WAAAAAAAAAGH!!!
I think the PA story is leading us to believe that there might be someway of combining the different klans into a super klan.
AND I think that it probably means Ghaz won't be faction locked
To his amazement, the Nob instead saw shimmering green figures whirling and moving in the air. His eyes widened in wonder as he saw ethereal green figures clambering onto spaceships made from a million scavenged wrecks. He watched as the figures, surely Orks from their build and all their killy gubbinz, flew through space and into the swirling maw of a big… swirly… thing!
At that point, the vision lost Thragrot for a moment, but regained his attention when he saw those same Orks – many, many more than he could count – spilling off their scrap-ships and into the biggest fight he’d ever seen. It was incredible. It was inspiring. It was so much more than Thragrot had imagined life could hold.
And then, as the vision dissipated, there was Big Boss Snagrack pulling himself up onto a wrecked Battlewagon. He clutched Goffboss Blackfang’s severed head in the blades of his power klaw and bellowed at the top of his lungs.
‘Dis fight iz over! Gork an’ Mork got bigger work fer us dan kickin’ each uvvers’ teef in! Dis is it ladz, it’s time fer da Waaagh!’
I mean, they're still like 300+ pts for a 10 man squad (or 2×5). That's a fifth of your 1500 pts, or over a seventh of your 2k. It's a lot of investment into one (or 2) unit, which is why you need to field some protection for them. Which, obviously, increases the cost to field them. And at the point, you might as well bring Badrukk along to improve their efficiency, cuz you've likely already put nearly 400 pts into them.
On average, a regular SAG is gonna have 3.5 BS5 shots at S7. Badrukk gets 3 BS4 (5 if you move) at S7 (8 if you overcharge). The SAG wins out on AP, but the difference between a -3 and a -5 isn't huge, and it also gets an average of 0.5 more damage per unsaved Wound. Side by side, the SAG will put out more damage, as long as you can get that LOS, but combined with improving your Gitz, Badrukk probably takes the win on actual damage increase. He's also more durable (with a 3+ and 5++), and can actually hold his own in CC (with 5 S5 attacks).
Personally, I'd say that if you're bringing Gitz, you should field Badrukk instead of a SAG (but NOT instead of a SSAG). But yo each their own.
5 feet sounds big except if terrain is proprly set getting longer than 3 fet uninterrupted LOS at will should be pretty darn rare and if you get that there should be plenty of places for opponent to hide out of that.
I find anything beyond 30"(including movement) to be nice bonus. Mobility is actually bigger help to get to position to shoot at hiding enemy.
Kaptin_Grubkrumpa wrote: I think the PA story is leading us to believe that there might be someway of combining the different klans into a super klan.
AND I think that it probably means Ghaz won't be faction locked
Yea I could see that. Maybe including Ghaz creates a new clan detachment that has different abilities?
There's also the possibility of new models at some time - Oddboyz, Madboyz and a few others were all mentioned. Unlikely, but still.
Or perhaps they will have a rule where weirdboyz can mob up? They mentioned "da odd sqwaud" which might imply a stratagem like "mob up" but for psykers that amplifies their power.
Kaptin_Grubkrumpa wrote: I think the PA story is leading us to believe that there might be someway of combining the different klans into a super klan.
AND I think that it probably means Ghaz won't be faction locked
Yea I could see that. Maybe including Ghaz creates a new clan detachment that has different abilities?
There's also the possibility of new models at some time - Oddboyz, Madboyz and a few others were all mentioned. Unlikely, but still.
Or perhaps they will have a rule where weirdboyz can mob up? They mentioned "da odd sqwaud" which might imply a stratagem like "mob up" but for psykers that amplifies their power.
It'd be nice, but GW missed a trick not calling them a squad of 'WAAAAAGGGHHH!locks'. Damnit GW.
tneva82 wrote: 5 feet sounds big except if terrain is proprly set getting longer than 3 fet uninterrupted LOS at will should be pretty darn rare and if you get that there should be plenty of places for opponent to hide out of that.
I find anything beyond 30"(including movement) to be nice bonus. Mobility is actually bigger help to get to position to shoot at hiding enemy.
Sure. But seeing some of these itc boards, you can find lines. He’ll, if they are too scared to poke their heads out, I’ll win on board control.
Also doesn’t address the transport problem nor the grot shield competition. SSAG staying alive is paramount in a lot of matches, unless you just roll like ass.
1) it only works on one unit, so if you field 3 SAGs, you're still only protecting one of them.
2) SAGs have character protection and have an Ammo Runt. Generally speaking, they should be fine unless your opponent is fielding a LOT of Snipers.
3) you mentioned long range firing, which is obviously a point in the SAGs favor, but that also means that any Sniper(s) that want a piece of your SAG have to either have long range, or likely expose themselves to return fire to get into range.
I, obviously, don't know your meta, but Snipers aren't a huge issue in my own. And the SAG (and even the SSAG) are far cheaper than a 300 pt group of Gitz anyway.
Had 2 SAG Meks, Morkanaut, Wazbom Blastajet, Dakkajet, 2 Dragsta, 1 Boosta Blasta, 1 Battlewaggon filled with 10 + 5 Gitz + Badrukk + Dread Waaagh KFF Mek, 1 Pikk Up with 7 Gitz, Wyrdboy and some Grotz.
@Jidmah: Used the tactic you posted in the DG tactic thread about a week ago and build my tactical objective deck without caring about holding stuff.
My list was extremely fast and quite killy with all the DS rerolls and lots of 2 / 3 / D6Dmg.
Basicly my deck was all the kill x stuff i could achive, some stuff like area denial and about 4 secure x cards to get exactly 18 cards. (New CA missions of course.)
Have to say i really liked that idea of yours to go for all the D3 VP kill x objectives.
Was able to get 2-5 allmost every turn and in one case even 8 VP.
First game was close model wise but l won with 10+ VP ahead, second i tabled him turn 5 with even more points.
Burned almost through the objective deck both games without caring about the markers.
Also gonna add another Dragsta, love the ability to shockjump and still hit on 4+ with the shock rifle or simply race around with 14" movement. Like him even better than the Scrapjet right now.
Those 20 Gitz also rock against Primaris.
Was thinking about adding another flyer for more flexibility.
Maybe leave the Naut and get another flyer and 2-3 buggies. (Or upgrade the Pikk Up to a second Waggon with also 10 Gitz.)
Love the Naut model but I have the feeling adding a flyer and some buggies will get me more damage with all the rerolls.
Also more chances for lost excess damage from enemy shooting.
The freeboota aura is +1 to hit, which is a modifier.
Open Topped specifically says it confers modifier bonuses and penalties to its occupants. Technically if you could put nonfreebootas in a freeboota vehicle they would get the bonus too, because theyre not getting the freeboota bonus theyre getting the open topped transfer
How is that needing a faq?
Yes, but they have issued FAQs in the past that undermine that literal wording. For example, transports that can ignore heavy weapons penalties when moving don't pass that on to their occupants, even though the RAW arguably says they should because it is a modifier the transport enjoys, and therefore that should pass to the occupants under the RAW.
There is also the FAQ that says that auras don't affect models in open-topped vehicles. There is no caveat there that "although auras don't hit the embarked unit, any aura that the transport is impacted by will pass on to them because it hits the transport." If that's what they intended, it would have been highly misleading to answer the FAQ the way they did.
These FAQs make it sound like the only thing they meant by "restrictions and modifiers" were like the examples they actually listed: that embarked units count as moving if the transport moved, count as falling back if the transport fell back, can't shoot if the transport advanced or is in combat, etc. Not that actual +s and -s to hit from buffs or debuffs pass on to them.
So it seems like an open issue to me. The whole open-topped rule is an absolute mess, honestly. It's totally unclear what is impacted and what isn't. They really need rewrite the rule in a way that is clear.
Yes they have faq'd directly against rules. Doesnt mean that can be applied to everything similar because they directly said one doesnt. Auras do not affect open-topped vehicles, correct. There also isnt any auras orks have access to that would even be considered a modifier anyway (rerolls are not a modifier). A freeboota bonus is not an aura, Auras do not have triggers, they are just passive buffs in a short range. And again, the effect is not affecting the unit inside its affecting the transport so moot point.
I dont see how its a complete mess. It says it confers modifiers, freeboota +1 is a modifier, and that particular modifier effect was not faq'd to not work (because yes pre-faq Battlefortress technically allowed occupants to not suffer heavy penalties, but it was faq'd so now THAT modifier doesnt get transferred)
If you really want to try and debate it, take it to YMDC. But there is literally nothing other than what you basically said of "they faq'd it for not preventing heavy moving penalties so naturally that means all modifiers" which is NOT how that stuff works. As of right now unless they include it in that faq otherwise it works, and is also literally the ONLY thing that works that way (as everything else isnt a modifier, or was the aforementioned heavy faq)
Q: If a transport with the Open-topped ability (e.g. a Trukk) is within range of an aura ability, are units that are embarked upon that transport affected by that ability? A: No.
There's nothing here that suggests the type of aura matters; the FAQ applies to any aura, including, for example, a +1 to hit aura. It's just a blanket rule that auras that give the transport an ability don't carry over to the embarked units, despite that being a modifier. This straight-up says that a transport being effected by an aura doesn't transfer that aura to the embarked passengers, no matter what the aura does. So a +1 to hit aura doesn't transfer.
The freebooters kulture is essentially a 24 inch aura that triggers when the unit with the keyword eliminates something, that lasts until the end of the phase. Nothing in that FAQ suggests that whether something is technically called an aura vs being an aura in fact has any impact. Aura isn't a keyword. It's just a description meaning an ability that covers anything within a certain radius. Nothing in that FAQ suggests that a different rule would apply to the kulture than applies to any other ability that covers x inches. I mean it's possible - anything is possible - but looking at that FAQ, there's no reason to think it would be different. It seems really odd to be arguing that it's totally clear that even though a +1 to hit aura wouldn't pass through to the embarked units, the +1 to hit kulture that is triggered by being within 24 inches of a unit does transfer, because that's somehow totally different. I mean you yourself even called the freeboterz effect an aura two posts ago, before changing your mind when I pointed out the FAQ about auras.
Based on that FAQ, if I had to say it was clear one way or the other, I'd say it's clear it doesn't apply. But I don't think it's clear. I think it's completely muddy, because the rule says one thing then the FAQs say something very different.
It's fine if you don't agree. I don't want to get into a silly argument. I was just explaining why I thought a FAQ was necessary to clarify it, because you had acted like it was stupid to even suggest there's a need for one.
flandarz wrote: I, obviously, don't know your meta, but Snipers aren't a huge issue in my own. And the SAG (and even the SSAG) are far cheaper than a 300 pt group of Gitz anyway.
At least one unit of eliminators has become a staple for every marine player of any color, since they are great game value for the money you spend on them. Then again, if you don't deploy first, it's easy to just outrange them.
[quote=Grotrebel 767149 10713001 e110680d0ea4efb181e729b0aded6248.jpg@Jidmah: Used the tactic you posted in the DG tactic thread about a week ago and build my tactical objective deck without caring about holding stuff.
My list was extremely fast and quite killy with all the DS rerolls and lots of 2 / 3 / D6Dmg.
Basicly my deck was all the kill x stuff i could achive, some stuff like area denial and about 4 secure x cards to get exactly 18 cards. (New CA missions of course.)
Awesome For orks I don't know whether I'd do the same, as I usually win my games by holding objectives - I really struggle to kill something during the last turns, since the vast majority of my army has been blown apart by then. I'll give it a try soon though
Have to say i really liked that idea of yours to go for all the D3 VP kill x objectives.
Was able to get 2-5 allmost every turn and in one case even 8 VP.
Agree, the whole trick to winning 2019 maelstrom seems to be scoring as man d3 VP objectives as possible. I might toy around with the defend objectives though, since those could ramp up some nice 2VP in the first turns when no one wants to get near your army or when you have some gretchin hiding out of LOS.
Also gonna add another Dragsta, love the ability to shockjump and still hit on 4+ with the shock rifle or simply race around with 14" movement. Like him even better than the Scrapjet right now.
This matches my feeling about those two buggies as well. The scrapjet is too slow and the low AP makes it unreliable. It basically has to drive directly at the enemy to be able to threaten valuable targets, while the dragsta can drive circles around the enemy.
Was thinking about adding another flyer for more flexibility.
Maybe leave the Naut and get another flyer and 2-3 buggies. (Or upgrade the Pikk Up to a second Waggon with also 10 Gitz.)
Love the Naut model but I have the feeling adding a flyer and some buggies will get me more damage with all the rerolls.
Also more chances for lost excess damage from enemy shooting.
I really like the naut as a bullet magnet and for its 36" gun. If he hits enemy lines, he also plows through primaris easily. Personally, I'm not too convinced of battlewagons in this type of army, so I'd rather drop it entirely and instead use a second trukk or maybe tellyport/jump the flash gits in.
Q: If a transport with the Open-topped ability (e.g. a Trukk) is within range of an aura ability, are units that are embarked upon that transport affected by that ability? A: No.
There's nothing here that suggests the type of aura matters; the FAQ applies to any aura, including, for example, a +1 to hit aura. It's just a blanket rule that auras that give the transport an ability don't carry over to the embarked units, despite that being a modifier. This straight-up says that a transport being effected by an aura doesn't transfer that aura to the embarked passengers, no matter what the aura does. So a +1 to hit aura doesn't transfer.
The freebooters kulture is essentially a 24 inch aura that triggers when the unit with the keyword eliminates something, that lasts until the end of the phase. Nothing in that FAQ suggests that whether something is technically called an aura vs being an aura in fact has any impact. Aura isn't a keyword. It's just a description meaning an ability that covers anything within a certain radius. Nothing in that FAQ suggests that a different rule would apply to the kulture than applies to any other ability that covers x inches. I mean it's possible - anything is possible - but looking at that FAQ, there's no reason to think it would be different. It seems really odd to be arguing that it's totally clear that even though a +1 to hit aura wouldn't pass through to the embarked units, the +1 to hit kulture that is triggered by being within 24 inches of a unit does transfer, because that's somehow totally different. I mean you yourself even called the freeboterz effect an aura two posts ago, before changing your mind when I pointed out the FAQ about auras.
Based on that FAQ, if I had to say it was clear one way or the other, I'd say it's clear it doesn't apply. But I don't think it's clear. I think it's completely muddy, because the rule says one thing then the FAQs say something very different.
It's fine if you don't agree. I don't want to get into a silly argument. I was just explaining why I thought a FAQ was necessary to clarify it, because you had acted like it was stupid to even suggest there's a need for one.
"Modifier" is a defined term in the basic rulebook, and means an addition, subtraction or multiplication of any stat. The open topped rule tells us that modifiers are conferred to the passengers when shooting.
It's 100% clear that as long as a battlewagon, trukk or chinork has +1 to hit for any reason, that is conferred to the passengers.
And further on ability to ignore moving penalty for heavy weapons is not modifier. It's ability to ignore modifier but not modifier itself. It does not grant +1 or -1. So just because that doesn't transfer is no evidence either way.
+1 transfers unless GW decides to rewrite the rule.
Think it was non-freeboota to non-freebota with idea to point out that if you could do that then the +1 transport(freeboota) would get from freeboota kultur would transfer to the non-freeboota occupants since it's not unit benefitting from kulture they don't have but from modifier that transport benefits which do transfer to unit inside.
Moot point as such as it's illegal but was used to demonstrate modifier transfering to occupants.
tneva82 wrote: Think it was non-freeboota to non-freebota with idea to point out that if you could do that then the +1 transport(freeboota) would get from freeboota kultur would transfer to the non-freeboota occupants since it's not unit benefitting from kulture they don't have but from modifier that transport benefits which do transfer to unit inside.
Moot point as such as it's illegal but was used to demonstrate modifier transfering to occupants.
Not as moot as you'd think - if Thrakka is no longer clan-locked, he would benefit from the +1 to hit for his shooting if he is aboard a freeboota transport.
The FAQ and transfer of Modifiers do not conflict with each other. The "aura" isn't affecting the unit inside the Transport. It's affecting the Transport. And as per Open-Topped, all modifiers and restrictions affecting the Transport are transferred to the unit inside the Transport.
tneva82 wrote: Think it was non-freeboota to non-freebota with idea to point out that if you could do that then the +1 transport(freeboota) would get from freeboota kultur would transfer to the non-freeboota occupants since it's not unit benefitting from kulture they don't have but from modifier that transport benefits which do transfer to unit inside.
Moot point as such as it's illegal but was used to demonstrate modifier transfering to occupants.
Not as moot as you'd think - if Thrakka is no longer clan-locked, he would benefit from the +1 to hit for his shooting if he is aboard a freeboota transport.
That's one big if though. There's no evidence whatsoever Thraka will not be clan locked.
edit: Not to mention that being basically dreadnought sized he could very well be locked out of being transported...
Awesome
For orks I don't know whether I'd do the same, as I usually win my games by holding objectives - I really struggle to kill something during the last turns, since the vast majority of my army has been blown apart by then. I'll give it a try soon though
Yes the struggle is real. In the first game i had just 20 grot and some characters left turn 5. For that reason i kept slay the warlord and asassinate + an easy secure x for the last turns so i can score them more easily.
That new missions really help to keep controll over which objective you can safe for later.
Agree, the whole trick to winning 2019 maelstrom seems to be scoring as man d3 VP objectives as possible. I might toy around with the defend objectives though, since those could ramp up some nice 2 VP in the first turns when no one wants to get near your army or when you have some gretchin hiding out of LOS.
I was thinking the same, but because most units are rather squishy i chose secure over hold to take the guaranteed 1 VP over the potential 2VP. Might try 2 secure and 2 hold next game.
There were some flying units and indirect fire that could have got into my defending stuff with no problem.
Also i put the markers more midfield those games so he had to come out to the open in front of my guns.
Previously most games so far had at least 4 objectives in the 4 corners behind some buildings so i can collect easy points with my grot - and many opponents tend to do the same except DG or possessed bomb who gain midboard controll turn 2 easily and want to have as many markers there as possible.
Choosing secure or defend depends a lot on which army i am up against. I made it a habbit to keep secure / hold nr 1-3 or 1-4 in my deck, so i can quickly see which side has more hold / defend options if i get to choose sides.
This matches my feeling about those two buggies as well. The scrapjet is too slow and the low AP makes it unreliable. It basically has to drive directly at the enemy to be able to threaten valuable targets, while the dragsta can drive circles around the enemy.
Good to see i am not the only one!
Still the Scrapjet is worth it as well being the only reliably buggy with decent cc and good chances to dish out some additional mortal wounds, but most of the time you dont really want to get into cc. Except you need to finish of a weakened unit or some odd scouts that survived shooting.
Too bad the Squiggbuggy sucks so much. I use the Boosta Blasta as well because i have the model, but besides having 36" and being cheaper i am not so convinced. Maybe i`ll convert his turret for another Dragsta and keep it optional, at least that model makes this quite easy.
Snazzwaggon is also mid-tier at best for me, that 1 Dmg does`t do anything for me i need and that -1 to hit is a fun gimmick at best.
Want to add some more buggies so i guess i`ll go with 3:1 Dragsta:Scrapjets and maybe 1 Blasta if i really need to cut 20 points?
I really like the naut as a bullet magnet and for its 36" gun. If he hits enemy lines, he also plows through primaris easily. Personally, I'm not too convinced of battlewagons in this type of army, so I'd rather drop it entirely and instead use a second trukk or maybe tellyport/jump the flash gits in.
Yeah his T8 18 wounds really helps! That gun is nice but i always feel like playing 3-4 buggies / flyer instead would give me more dakka.
On the other hand most armys won`t ignore him stomping forward which helps my waggons and buggies to survive longer.
Flyers in the opponents half of the battlefield and the naut are the only thing that keeps the enemy AT busy enough to ignore my Gitz in waggons / Pikk Ups.
Also his BS does not decrease so he gets fokused down a lot. Him shooting twice can be quite scary as an alternative for the SSAG.
Leaving him would mean those waggons get attention far earlier. Thats also the reason why i love the waggon, because he can tank some shots before the poor gitz have to walk.
Tried tellyporting them as well but that gave them 1 turn BS5+ shooting and getting shot off the board afterwards. :(
Might try fielding 2 x 10 in 2 Pikk Ups and keeping them out of LOS turn one.
Or tellyport 10 in a Pikk Up.
So whats your opinion on the flyers in those kind of lists?
Haven`t found any reason at all to field Blitzas / Bommas so far and my Dakkajet & Wazbom worked great most of the time.
Second Dakkajet would come cheaper, but a second Wazbom could help with KFF for some buggies near them and decent dakka.
My idea for the next game would be:
SSAG + SAG + KFF 30 Grot
2 Wazbom + Dakkajet
Naut
3 Dragsta
2 x Pikk Up with 10 Gitz
Or tellyport 20 Gitz and switch Pikk Ups and some gitz for another 2 buggies or second battalion.
But 10 Gitz is the lowest i`ll go, really love the models.
Any ideas how to optimize?
Grotrebel wrote: Choosing secure or defend depends a lot on which army i am up against. I made it a habbit to keep secure / hold nr 1-3 or 1-4 in my deck, so i can quickly see which side has more hold / defend options if i get to choose sides.
Keep in mind that, according to the rules, you have to build your deck before you place a single objective or roll to see who deploys first. There is a grey area on how objectives are numbered, but I suggest not gaming that.
Want to add some more buggies so i guess i`ll go with 3:1 Dragsta:Scrapjets and maybe 1 Blasta if i really need to cut 20 points?
I'd probably split 3:2:1 across dragstas, scrapjets and kbb. While KBB aren't doing tons of damage, they are another buggy on the board that can tag shooty units, push troops of objectives or try to kill a character with mortal wounds.
So whats your opinion on the flyers in those kind of lists?
Haven`t found any reason at all to field Blitzas / Bommas so far and my Dakkajet & Wazbom worked great most of the time.
Second Dakkajet would come cheaper, but a second Wazbom could help with KFF for some buggies near them and decent dakka.
I have experimented a lot with burna bommers since the skorcha missile buff, but they are a very hit and miss unit. They are awesome if your opponent is trying to screen his stuff with infantry, as you can bomb hole into their screen during your movement phase, allowing a unit to move through the screen in the same movement phase. I've exploited this a lot with warbikers, catching many opponent on the wrong foot. The bombs also work well against units like dark reapers, lootas (no grot shields!) or DA helblasters. Worst case, they still kill 2-3 primaris. The downside is that they have to move really close to the enemy army, which usually means that they are in range of every krak grenade, every plasma pistol and every smite. Everyone who has gotten caught by the explosion once will never risk having it drop on their heads ever again. Should it survive dropping both bombs, you basically got a weaker version of a dakkajet with skorcha missiles, grot twin big shot and two supa-shootas.
However, if the enemy is not trying to screen and there is no good target to bomb, you have a plane which doesn't contribute a whole lot to game with all the downsides the dakkajet doesn't have. I suggest giving it a try, it has done worked great and terribly for me, extremely dependent on who you are facing. Necrons, for example, don't care a whole lot if you bomb down 15 warriors unless you can finish the unit.
The wazzbom is hands down the best plane for a buggy list, since it softens alpha-strikes and can kill a wide array of units which are dangerous to your vehicles - it is expensive though. Dakkajet is the budget option for playing it safe, just stay at max range and kill units.
My idea for the next game would be:
Spoiler:
SSAG + SAG + KFF 30 Grot
2 Wazbom + Dakkajet
Naut
3 Dragsta
2 x Pikk Up with 10 Gitz
Or tellyport 20 Gitz and switch Pikk Ups and some gitz for another 2 buggies or second battalion.
But 10 Gitz is the lowest i`ll go, really love the models.
Any ideas how to optimize?
That's a really low model count though. I'd be worried of getting tabled.
There's nothing here that suggests the type of aura matters; the FAQ applies to any aura, including, for example, a +1 to hit aura. It's just a blanket rule that auras that give the transport an ability don't carry over to the embarked units, despite that being a modifier. This straight-up says that a transport being effected by an aura doesn't transfer that aura to the embarked passengers, no matter what the aura does. So a +1 to hit aura doesn't transfer.
As many have pointed out before i woke up this morning, Open-Topped and the faq you mentioned do not conflict. I have said it multiple times, the unit inside is NOT being affected by any aura/freeboota bonus, the transport is. Transport is affected by a defined modifier, thus it transfers it. Badrukk for instance would not transfer both because the trukk isnt even affected by it (Flashgitz keyword, not Freeboota) and its rerolls anyway so even if the trukk was affected by it the units inside wouldnt get it. [hypothetical] if for instance they suddenly allow auras to affect Open Topped and didnt watch their wording to counteract the current behavior, Freebootas in a Freeboota Transport would actually get +2 to hit because now the aura is affecting them [again, hypothetical not actually possible atm]
And yeah @Emicrania it was nonfreeboota in a freeboota transport, which currently is not allowed, as an example to this whole +1 transferring argument.
On the whole FW rules thing: i personally would just avoid FWatm. Ork units in FW are so janky that even the few that work are probably going to get an overhaul because theyre still weird. I swear the ork portion of the rules were only half done when that writer died and they put it out anyway.
Keep in mind that, according to the rules, you have to build your deck before you place a single objective or roll to see who deploys first. There is a grey area on how objectives are numbered, but I suggest not gaming that.
Yeah we build decks, then place markers. So in my example i would take secure 1-4, and when choosing sides i would take the one that gives best chances getting those 4.
And of course i am not pulling any illegal stunts to get me a advantage here.
On the other side, to make it completely random it would be best to let the dice decide which marker is which after choosing sides.
Actually never thought about that before because we used numbered markers since playing 40k.^^
I'd probably split 3:2:1 across dragstas, scrapjets and kbb. While KBB aren't doing tons of damage, they are another buggy on the board that can tag shooty units, push troops of objectives or try to kill a character with mortal wounds.
Fair enough, sounds like a good combination.
I have experimented a lot with burna bommers since the skorcha missile buff, but they are a very hit and miss unit. They are awesome if your opponent is trying to screen his stuff with infantry, as you can bomb hole into their screen during your movement phase, allowing a unit to move through the screen in the same movement phase. I've exploited this a lot with warbikers, catching many opponent on the wrong foot. The bombs also work well against units like dark reapers, lootas (no grot shields!) or DA helblasters. Worst case, they still kill 2-3 primaris. The downside is that they have to move really close to the enemy army, which usually means that they are in range of every krak grenade, every plasma pistol and every smite. Everyone who has gotten caught by the explosion once will never risk having it drop on their heads ever again. Should it survive dropping both bombs, you basically got a weaker version of a dakkajet with skorcha missiles, grot twin big shot and two supa-shootas.
However, if the enemy is not trying to screen and there is no good target to bomb, you have a plane which doesn't contribute a whole lot to game with all the downsides the dakkajet doesn't have. I suggest giving it a try, it has done worked great and terribly for me, extremely dependent on who you are facing. Necrons, for example, don't care a whole lot if you bomb down 15 warriors unless you can finish the unit.
The wazzbom is hands down the best plane for a buggy list, since it softens alpha-strikes and can kill a wide array of units which are dangerous to your vehicles - it is expensive though. Dakkajet is the budget option for playing it safe, just stay at max range and kill units.
Sounds about what i was thinking. The burna bomba gives at least some Dakka besides the bomb and now that i think about it, his mortal wound potential might draw fire from other units.
Agree that it might be kind of a one-trick pony that doesn`t work against a good opponent.
I guess i`ll just try to convert / magnetise a Wazbom / Burna combination then. Or simply give it all the dakka.
That's a really low model count though. I'd be worried of getting tabled.
Yes it strikes hard but goes down quick as well. Unless i get a brutal alpha strike i loose 3/4 of my army in most games.
Biggest advantage for me is i get to play quick games and love the style.
The question is, what might compensate that model count best. 3rd grot battalion gives CP but gets tabled as well.
Adding boys might work but 2 x 30 takes away almost 500 points and gives the opponent targets for their infantry killing weapons.
On the other hand they might give me some breathing room and tellyport in turn 2 after i cleaned some screaning.
Alternative takes?
Trying to make the vehicle heavy list as competitive as it gets for this seasons tournaments but really don`t want to go simply 25 lootas, 90 boys and some smashas in 3 battalions which was my way to go so far but got kinda boring.
Our local tournaments use mostly Mahlstrom + Eternal war combination, so no ITC format.
Grotrebel wrote: Yeah we build decks, then place markers. So in my example i would take secure 1-4, and when choosing sides i would take the one that gives best chances getting those 4.
Well assuming yout to choose. Half the time you have to hope opponent gives you the one you were hoping. Assuming 1-4 are even on same area of board and not spread out over the table
The one thing I have never seen good answer is how to decide who puts up what. This is particularly interest for necrons who have maelstrom card that involves controlling all even or all odd objectives...
Well you could roll off to see who places objective marker 1. The other player rolls a dice to see what marker he places next(rerolling on what markers have already been placed) and continue like that for the rest of the markers. That seems fair.
Alternatively shuffle them randomly and both get 3 randomly.
Guess before it didn't have much impact but necrons have it and guess with new card building you could try to game around that as well a bit where it could matter. Interesting.
I really like the idea of a buggy list too. I want to take it in a somewhat different direction, and try something really wild: an evil sunz/kult of speed battalion with deffkilla w/ the ES warlord trait that lets you fall back and charge w/in 6 , plus at least 3 megatrakks. Evil sunz megatrakks move 14~19, or 24 if you use the 2cp strat on one, so they're really not that slow. The idea is to take advantage of the fact that the megatrakks can advance and shoot with no penalty, and are also quite good in melee, especially on the charge w/ the mortal wound potential. Take a wazbom with KFF and you can shield them T1, and that's actually a ton of wounds they have to chew through before they start destroying your buggies, at least 12 with the 5+ invuln. Or against armies that really can chew through all that T1, you can even put the megatrakks into the tellyporta and the wazbom way off in the farthest corner of the board to avoid the alpha strike, and play for the T2 charge instead.
For the rest of the army, I'm thinking to basically just flood the table with a ton of grots - 60 or 90, depending on whether I want to take 2 or 3 battalions. Take one battalion as DS/DW and get the standard SSAG, plus a weirdboy with da jump to toss the grots around - there are a surprising amount of tricks you can pull with grots, and even if they just force the opponent to waste a unit's shots to kill them, that's often still a victory. The wazbom goes here too, for the rerolls.
For the third battalion or fast attack detachment, I am thinking to add a warboss on warbike + some stormboyz - probably 3 units of 10. The object of these is not really to kill stuff but just to tie it up; between DS and fly + the ES bonuses these guys can charge almost anything on the board, moving over enemy units to do it if they survive more than a turn. The warboss hangs out with the vehicles if you're putting the stormboyz in DS, and can delete almost anything he charges, especially if you spend the CP for the additional relic and give him the uberklaw. Warboss on warbike still is legal, right?
That leaves like 400 points for other stuff. More megatrakks? Some shokkjumps? Another wazbom? A unit of 30 boyz? Maybe even a bunch of mek gunz to sit with the SSAG, though these are likely to just get wiped out T1 if you choose to take the T2 approach.
Basically the idea is to have a very mobile army that can either go aggressive from T1, or shield most of its units T1 then really hit T2 with a bunch of DSing units that can all make charges at a 72% success rate, tying up a huge proportion of the enemy's army in a single charge phase.
I see two major weaknesses with this list that probably make it not super competitive: you're potentially giving your opponent a lot of points from destroyed units given that pretty much everything in your army is either a MSU or a fragile vehicle, and against armies that can fall back and shoot, a lot of your disruption potential is eliminated. But it seems like it'd be a blast to play, and the sheer surprise factor could win you some games.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Emicrania wrote: @Vineheart, are you 100% about that? Matthew Hanney went with a ES trukk with Flashgitz in it and ended up 74th at LVO
Flash gitz are a special case. You can take them in an ES trukk if you want, because the transports specifically allow you to take either <clan> or flash gitz.
The buggy style, buzzing around seems like good fun, but honestly, I'd keep them deffskulls. They get stronger in shooting and combat.
You are very likely still charging on turn 2 anyway even without advancing turn 1, unless they've fallen back into their deployment zone. You can keep some fast elements if you want as ES (Stormboyz), but you are losing a lot of consistency just to move a bit faster. Heck, once you're out of KFF, that random 6+ invul is a god send.
tulun wrote: The buggy style, buzzing around seems like good fun, but honestly, I'd keep them deffskulls. They get stronger in shooting and combat.
You are very likely still charging on turn 2 anyway even without advancing turn 1, unless they've fallen back into their deployment zone. You can keep some fast elements if you want as ES (Stormboyz), but you are losing a lot of consistency just to move a bit faster. Heck, once you're out of KFF, that random 6+ invul is a god send.
Deffskulls is definitely the stronger choice for buggies ordinarily. But if I'm really committed to this idea of a megatrakk attack force, I think ES is better. The added mobility is huge - 3 inches per turn, plus the advance doesn't give you a -1 to hit, plus the +1 to charge. If you're advancing, ES is better for shooting than deffskulls, especially since the buggy's weapons are all fixed damage, so the damage reroll is wasted. The deffskull kulture does make them quite a bit better in combat, since you get the full use out of it. But I figure with this list, getting into combat with your buggies is more important than maximizing your damage once you're there. Failing a charge will lose you the game with this list; failing a wound or rolling a 1 for damage is much less likely to cost you.
Most importantly, if you run deffskulls, you basically completely give up the alternate way to run the list, putting the buggies in the tellyporta and then going for a T2 strike from DS with all your CC units while denying the opponent any good targets on T1, because that +1 to charge is critical to making charging from DS a viable strategy. If you build the list with this second possibility in mind, you can set up so that basically grots are the only thing they can shoot T1, except maybe the wazbom with very long-range stuff (put it all the way in a corner away from everything else and they aren't going to be able to shoot it with a lot of their anti-tank unless they really commit to it, which is what you want since it opens up holes for your DS to come in on or forces them to forgo shorter-range shooting that turn if they elect to keep their forces together).
So you get a little better CC, and a bit better resilience, but you lose massive mobility and a second way to run the army. I don't think that's really worth it. The concept is all about messing with people, so I think I'd rather guarantee the messing potential than the resilience. I feel like the ability to force your opponent to deploy not knowing whether they're facing a T1 table charge or a T2 DS charge is absolutely huge.
A little better is good. Two ds scrapjets has about same dmg output than 3 es.
That's huge. So 6 deffsjukz scrapjets do same ammount of dmg than 9 evil sunz.
+ more meele.
Shokk jump its more than 50% more dmg ouput at deffskulls
All the buggies become relatively ridiculous when theyre deathskullz and anywhere from complete crap to decent with non-deathskullz Except squigbuggy, zog dat one. Given GW's track record with orks im worried they may axe Deathskulls a bit since its so obviously better than the other kultures, rather than bring the other kultures back up to par.
T1nk4bell wrote: A little better is good. Two ds scrapjets has about same dmg output than 3 es.
That's huge. So 6 deffsjukz scrapjets do same ammount of dmg than 9 evil sunz.
+ more meele.
Shokk jump its more than 50% more dmg ouput at deffskulls
T1nk4bell wrote: A little better is good. Two ds scrapjets has about same dmg output than 3 es.
That's huge. So 6 deffsjukz scrapjets do same ammount of dmg than 9 evil sunz.
+ more meele.
Shokk jump its more than 50% more dmg ouput at deffskulls
Well it goes without saying you'd take deffskulls for the wazbom, and any shokkjumps if you take those. Both of those are set up to benefit immensely from the rerolls.
Megatrakks get much less benefit from the rerolls, however, and much more benefit from the extra movement and being able to advance and fire without the penalty. So it's not nearly so clear-cut. I haven't done the math but I'd be really surprised if deffskulls produces more shooting damage on a megatrakk than evil sunz, if advancing them is an important part of your strategy. The -1 to hit on all your shots surely hurts you a lot more than a single reroll to hit and wound helps you.
It's a fairly small thing in the current meta, but you also lose out on the ES warlord trait that lets you fall back and charge, and on Drive-by Krumpin'. Now it isn't common with how the game is set up right now that your opponent is going to stay in combat with your megatrakk and both the megatrakk and the other unit will survive till your turn for you to fall back then charge AND your deffkilla trike is still alive and around to grant the aura...but if this does come up, it could win you the game to be able to fall back and charge a different target instead, or even just to fall back and recharge the same unit to strike first and get a 50% chance at D3 mortal wounds. Similarly, Drive-by Krumpin' is extremely situational...but if you end up in just the right situation (most likely in the late game, when both you and your opponent are almost out of units) where that 12 inch move can get you out of range or line of sight of a unit that would destroy you otherwise, it could win you the game.
Basically I agree that most of the time deffskulls is the better choice, but in a list built in a certain way, I think ES is a viable choice, even if it'll only be the superior one in a minority of games.
By all means, go ahead and try it if it floats your boat.
I think the thing with the Megatrakk is is that it doesn't *really* wanna get into combat as it's main strategy.
It's basically a Nob with a Power Klaw. The ram is nice too, but it has always felt to me like an opportunistic charger.
The reason why it's so good is that 2d3 rokkits plus the wing missile already holds its weight.. and it has a bunch of above average big shoota shots baked in.
So the strategy itself is kind of flawed. You wanna shoot with it as much as possible, until a good setup comes and it roars ahead.
Deathskull rerolls also make it a lot more consistent in close combat once it gets there.
Megatrakk should not be seeing melee unless its not going to get away from it, in which case it might as well charge for spiked ram potential.
It does enough damage to potentially finish off a marine or two...thats about it. But without any fall back and shoot mechanic it cant risk being stuck in combat.
Vineheart01 wrote: Megatrakk should not be seeing melee unless its not going to get away from it, in which case it might as well charge for spiked ram potential.
It does enough damage to potentially finish off a marine or two...thats about it. But without any fall back and shoot mechanic it cant risk being stuck in combat.
Yeah, it may end up just not working at all. My thought was that it's better to shoot then charge into something that is shooty than to just shoot then let it shoot back at you and likely blow you up on the next turn - at least that way you get the 50% chance at the mortal wounds plus probably another couple wounds from the CC. And then on their turn, they have to choose whether to fall back - in which case if you do survive you can shoot then charge again to repeat the cycle - or to stay in combat, in which case you can't be shot at, so you probably live that way too. It seems like in most circumstances being "stuck" in combat is actually a lot better than being sitting out there to be shot at. Especially if you've got some other stuff in the same combat (deffkilla, warboss on warbike, stormboyz), and you have a decent chance of wiping their unit on their turn.
I probably wouldn't charge with the megatrakks on their own unless I absolutely needed to shut down the shooting of the thing I'm charging for the next turn...but if you're charging with the deffkilla/warboss/stormboyz anyway, unless I'm just missing something, piling into stuff with the megatrakks too seems a lot better than just having them sit there in a prime firing corridor.
Deffskulls is definitely the stronger choice for buggies ordinarily. But if I'm really committed to this idea of a megatrakk attack force, I think ES is better. The added mobility is huge - 3 inches per turn, plus the advance doesn't give you a -1 to hit, plus the +1 to charge. If you're advancing, ES is better for shooting than deffskulls, especially since the buggy's weapons are all fixed damage, so the damage reroll is wasted. The deffskull kulture does make them quite a bit better in combat, since you get the full use out of it. But I figure with this list, getting into combat with your buggies is more important than maximizing your damage once you're there. Failing a charge will lose you the game with this list; failing a wound or rolling a 1 for damage is much less likely to cost you.
Most importantly, if you run deffskulls, you basically completely give up the alternate way to run the list, putting the buggies in the tellyporta and then going for a T2 strike from DS with all your CC units while denying the opponent any good targets on T1, because that +1 to charge is critical to making charging from DS a viable strategy. If you build the list with this second possibility in mind, you can set up so that basically grots are the only thing they can shoot T1, except maybe the wazbom with very long-range stuff (put it all the way in a corner away from everything else and they aren't going to be able to shoot it with a lot of their anti-tank unless they really commit to it, which is what you want since it opens up holes for your DS to come in on or forces them to forgo shorter-range shooting that turn if they elect to keep their forces together).
So you get a little better CC, and a bit better resilience, but you lose massive mobility and a second way to run the army. I don't think that's really worth it. The concept is all about messing with people, so I think I'd rather guarantee the messing potential than the resilience. I feel like the ability to force your opponent to deploy not knowing whether they're facing a T1 table charge or a T2 DS charge is absolutely huge.
Vineheart01 wrote: Megatrakk should not be seeing melee unless its not going to get away from it, in which case it might as well charge for spiked ram potential.
It does enough damage to potentially finish off a marine or two...thats about it. But without any fall back and shoot mechanic it cant risk being stuck in combat.
I agree vine.
If you really want to exploid to get most out of shooting and close comba with Scrapjetst I´d rather play them as Blood Axes. The Evil Suns WL trait just enables charging after falling back and i guess i would rather have the ability to shoot or charge with the BA trait and not depend on the warlord being alive for that. Also the Scrapjets would get a 3+ save over 18" but i guess thats not much since you want to charge and will be under 18" most of the time.
I get the idea of ES Scrapjets adding to an Evil Sunz alpha strike but i think there are better alternatives than invest 300 points in 3 Scrapjets that loose lots of dakka for that cc.
Especially with DS buggies being that good.
DS Scrapjets can still shoot 2 turns and then charge turn 2 if there are some odd marines left to kill or if you want to tie up shooty stuff.
If you really want to get that turn one charge you can still shockjump one dragsta and use ramming speed. You`ll loose a bit cc potential but if it`s just about preventing shooty stuff shooting the dragsta works as well.
flandarz wrote: We really shoulda got a Buggy with Pistols and a good CC profile. The Snazzwagon would have been perfect for it too, with the -1 to hit.
Or maybe the squigbuggy? The Orks would just be throwing their ammunition over the sides into the enemy.
I had considered the blood axe option, but at that point I do think deffskulls is just better, especially since taking them as bloodaxes would require adding a new detachment whereas taking them as ES or deffskulls doesn't since the list has one of each anyway.
Obviously it's better to let them shoot if they're going to be able to shoot. I guess I've just found in the current meta that every list is so shooty that if you leave something like a buggy out there within 24 inches to be shot at, it's not going to be there the next turn to shoot back. That's been my issue with buggies generally, TBH - they are just so fragile that "move forward and shoot" tends to result in them dying before your next turn.
And in that meta, if you do charge...95% of the time they'll fall back on their turn, so you don't really lose anything by charging except maybe being within melta range or something like that when you otherwise wouldn't have been.
Obviously you wouldn't be charging anything that wants to be in melee with you, that would be silly. But if you have a choice between shooting then sitting there to be shot back at by a tank or anti-tank ranged infantry, or shooting then charging that unit...it seems like charging is almost always better than not charging. Unless you can drive-by krumpin' out of LOS...but again, you lose that with deffskulls.
I mean I totally hear you on the deffskulls things in general. I may well be overvaluing the mobility, because in reality a good opponent probably isn't going to let you charge multiple units with multiple buggies, whether it's on T1 or on T2 from DS.
I think I am going to have to just give it a shot and see how much mileage (ha, ha) I can get out of the movement tricks. The idea behind the list is to basically make it so your opponent doesn't have anything good to shoot during the turn(s) when it matters most, then to tie stuff up, so if he can shoot, it'll be at significantly reduced strength. If the strategy ends up working, I think ES is the right choice. But if it's just a flawed strategy in the first place, obviously deffskulls will work better if you're just going to play buggies the normal "hang back and try to minimize the fire you're exposed to using LOS" way.
Deffskulls is definitely the stronger choice for buggies ordinarily. But if I'm really committed to this idea of a megatrakk attack force, I think ES is better. The added mobility is huge - 3 inches per turn, plus the advance doesn't give you a -1 to hit, plus the +1 to charge. If you're advancing, ES is better for shooting than deffskulls, especially since the buggy's weapons are all fixed damage, so the damage reroll is wasted. The deffskull kulture does make them quite a bit better in combat, since you get the full use out of it. But I figure with this list, getting into combat with your buggies is more important than maximizing your damage once you're there. Failing a charge will lose you the game with this list; failing a wound or rolling a 1 for damage is much less likely to cost you. Most importantly, if you run deffskulls, you basically completely give up the alternate way to run the list, putting the buggies in the tellyporta and then going for a T2 strike from DS with all your CC units while denying the opponent any good targets on T1, because that +1 to charge is critical to making charging from DS a viable strategy. If you build the list with this second possibility in mind, you can set up so that basically grots are the only thing they can shoot T1, except maybe the wazbom with very long-range stuff (put it all the way in a corner away from everything else and they aren't going to be able to shoot it with a lot of their anti-tank unless they really commit to it, which is what you want since it opens up holes for your DS to come in on or forces them to forgo shorter-range shooting that turn if they elect to keep their forces together).
My experience with ES megatrakks is that the extra 2" (move+advance) aren't enough to make a difference. You'll not be able to reach anything T1 that you weren't able to reach without the 2" and you won't able to shoot or charge anything T2 that you weren't able to reach with the 20" movement anyways. Also keep in mind that a megatrakk is roughly equal in combat ability to a a PK nob... which isn't exactly that awesome. With just 4+ armor and T6 they also take quite some damage in return. In general you don't want scrapjets in combat, as they aren't actually good at it. They are great at shooting, so make sure to keep them shooting.
So you get a little better CC, and a bit better resilience, but you lose massive mobility and a second way to run the army. I don't think that's really worth it. The concept is all about messing with people, so I think I'd rather guarantee the messing potential than the resilience. I feel like the ability to force your opponent to deploy not knowing whether they're facing a T1 table charge or a T2 DS charge is absolutely huge.
A unit of scrapjets has got 12 S8 attacks hitting on 4+, with AP-2 and d3 damage. Even if you assume that you get all of them in combat (likely not possible), we are taking about four dead primaris, seven dead chaff models or seven damage on a vehicle. Afterwards, the enemy will fall back and just krak-grenade, shoot and melee the scrapjets to death. For less points, you could just field a gorkanaut. I doubt that charging from deep strike is a valid alternate play style for buggies.
Grotrebel wrote: If you really want to exploid to get most out of shooting and close comba with Scrapjetst I´d rather play them as Blood Axes. The Evil Suns WL trait just enables charging after falling back and i guess i would rather have the ability to shoot or charge with the BA trait and not depend on the warlord being alive for that. Also the Scrapjets would get a 3+ save over 18" but i guess thats not much since you want to charge and will be under 18" most of the time.
I have yet to have a scrapjet live to see the turn after it charged tough. Even if you do notable damage, it is a high priority target within range of every random melta gun, krak grenade and pistol and every rapid fire gun is able to double-tap them. They are much better off staying at max range and shoot another turn than charging.
I get the idea of ES Scrapjets adding to an Evil Sunz alpha strike but i think there are better alternatives than invest 300 points in 3 Scrapjets that loose lots of dakka for that cc. Especially with DS buggies being that good.
What ES alpha strike? The only kind of alpha strike we have is SAGs and lootas. All T1 charges serve the sole purpose of tying up enemy movement and shooting.
DS Scrapjets can still shoot 2 turns and then charge turn 2 if there are some odd marines left to kill or if you want to tie up shooty stuff.
Assuming you still have a scrapjet by turn 2 (I usually don't), you should not charge them. Stay at range, keep shooting all those rokkits and big shootas.
If you really want to get that turn one charge you can still shockjump one dragsta and use ramming speed. You`ll loose a bit cc potential but if it`s just about preventing shooty stuff shooting the dragsta works as well.
The wartrike can usually pull of T1 charges with no help. However, even though it's the best buggy in combat, it's really not great at it. I've had it fail to kill a single librarian. When playing buggies, you need to drop part of the ork mentality - charges are in no way advantageous to you, keep your distance, try to get cover or try staying out of LoS for powerful anti-tank guns and just keep shooting all those great guns they have. Even a deff skulls wartrike will serve you better by shooting that assault2 melta every turn than by charging something and dying.
Vast majority of our units are shooting oriented. We are supposed to compensate for poor BS with number of shots/cheap platforms, but not so much these days with the general buffing of shooting for other factions and reductions in their points.
As you said, 8th edition is not very friendly to CC (especially the low durability kind that we, Nidz, and Daemons favor), but that doesn't necessarily make Orkz a shooty army. Our competitive options for shooting are, frankly, extremely limited and gimmick-reliant. Of course, we ain't really a CC army either, because, despite having (at least) a serviceable statline for it, as mentioned, this edition is pretty punishing to our style of CQC combat.
All said, I'd label us more as "switch-hitters". We can perform well at range or at CC, and which we prefer to get into is dependent on the unit, the current game situation, and our opponent. With the exact same list we can take out Tau without ever charging in, or can rush into a Guard line and start picking them apart.
Really, our biggest shortcoming is that we lack durability for our point cost. We can mitigate this a bit via KFF and/or a Painboy, but even with them we tend to die in droves. As I said before, GW just can't seem to decide whether we should be a "field a ton of cheap, expendable models and overwhelm our opponent's defense" army or a "field fewer, stronger models and beat our opponent to death before they can wipe us out" army, and it makes our competitive builds extremely skewed, predictable, and boring.
8th edition is about getting first turn and shooting everything, the only melee focused army playable is orkz, because this edition they shoot better than fight, and get victory points with tons of corpses
Again, Orkz don't really "shoot better than they fight". Overall, our shooting is pretty average, and we have better than average CC. Problem is, if you can't make it to CC, then that CC statline doesn't do jack for ya, and our survivability options are extremely limited. So, I guess you could say that average shooting is, technically, better than getting murdered before you can use your good CC.
Lootas, ssag, tankbustas and smashers dont shoot average, they are absolutely broken and one of the most powerful shooting units in the game, outplaying even tau, in a marine equivalency
Great. We have a total of 4 units which have "broken" shooting (by your standards). Out of approximately 50 datasheets in our Codex. Yup. We sure do shoot better than we fight.
Edit: in case it wasn't clear, I actually disagree on the assertion that any of those units are broken. Lootas have all but disappeared from the meta, Tankbustas also seem to be fielded very rarely, and the SSAG requires you spend 1CP and take a Relic to even field. The only one that comes close to "broken" is the Smasha, but if you run the numbers you'll find that (unless you spam them) they really aren't throwing out that much damage.
Kebabcito wrote: Lootas, ssag, tankbustas and smashers dont shoot average, they are absolutely broken and one of the most powerful shooting units in the game, outplaying even tau, in a marine equivalency
You assume they don't get shot back/have a Trukk/use Grot shields though right?
Because none of those units you've mentioned trade particularly well if they're dead because the opponent farted in their general direction. Evil Sunz Tankbustas don't strike me as particularly good (let alone broken) when fired at a non-vehicle unit, if I'm honest.
Jidmah wrote: My experience with ES megatrakks is that the extra 2" (move+advance) aren't enough to make a difference.
Just as an FYI Jid - Evil Sunz Scrapjets (and all other ES Buggies, for that matter) move an extra 3" (+2" because 'Speed Freaks' and + 1" advance). I've found the extra movement to be very fun, particularly when we don't suffer a penalty for moving and firing Assault weapons.
i would not say the SSAG is the most broken shooty unit in the game.
Its the epitome of random. For every awesome shot i get with it i get 3-4 laughably bad ones that either did 1-2 damage or 0 damage. The only reason he seems so ridiculous is Big Killa Boss trait mitigates the random strength to a degree and people remember when he 1shots your knight a LOT easier than they remember him failing to wound a guardsmen.
And i have never heard lootas/tankbustas ever be looked as as "broken" - theyre soooooo squishy that they die after they delete something, making them more of a trade than an amazing powerhouse. In fact unless i had them in a Gargsquig ive never had them fire more than once in a game...ever...even with grot shields.
Smasha Mek Gun is not amazing, its actually quite mediocre. Its only used a lot because it can be massed for cheap, and theyre just lethal enough to be a pain if you ignore them but just durable enough to make you not want to. One or two smashas wont be doing much to turn the tide of the game, but 6 easily can. They could curb this by limiting how many we can field and never touch the cost and we'd still stop using them.
Mek guns are nice for filling out a Brigade or Spearhead, though. And although not amazingly tanky, they have a decent profile for their points.
I've found they've been great for target saturation. They are more efficiently killed by anti tank stuff, which can leave some of my other stuff left alone round 1, even if they never fire a shot.
Right, which is a niche not many people think about.
Something that is basically only there to be durable for its cost has incredible value if its capable of being a problem if ignored. Mek Gunz fit that role to a T (Killakanz are so close but alas, they suck), if you have 4-6 of them they can do some damage but if your opponent wants to get rid of them they wont stay around for long. But like you said, if the anti-tank stuff is hitting them your actual tanks are probably fine.
I do this tactic all the time and it baffles people when i say i brought a unit to die. Expecting every unit you bring to get its cost back is silly, if it can eat in excess of its cost in terms of firepower for a turn or two...thats a win as much as what it could have killed.
The amount of people i pissed off with my Piranha-Wall in 7th edition tau using this tactic was comical. They almost never did anything other than just get in the friggin way but they were crucial to my tactics as a mobile speedbump. And now in Admech currently i am doing it with dragoons lol
The bonus movement from ES scrapjets is way more than 2" - you get 2" just for movement, an extra +1 to advances and charges, and most importantly, you can advance and shoot without crippling your damage potential. So really in most situations you're looking at a realistic move of 10 for deffskulls scrapjets, vs 13-19 for ES ones. That's an average of 50% greater speed. Plus you get drive-by krumpin', so in fact if you spend 1 CP your move is 25-31", giving you potentially three times the speed...and the last 12 inches of that after you shoot, so you can pop out, shoot, and pop back out of LOS or even potentially straight-up range; lots of stuff with 24 inch weapons isn't going to be able to close back on their turn if you just backpedal.
Is it enough to justify taking them? I dunno. But it's a much bigger advantage than people here are giving it credit for.
I agree that the primary thing with Mek Gunz is that there's not really any gun that is efficient at taking them out. Splitting into multiple units combined with T5 and 5 wounds means the opponent will usually either waste shots by overkilling, or will end up underkilling some and having to deal with them again next turn.
I think the big thing that makes people think some Ork shooting is OP is the mentality that Orkz should only have awful shooting. So anything that would be below average for another Faction is seen as good, and anything that's just average (or slightly above average) is seen as broken.
I still think ES is a fine Kultur. But it really depends on what you're trying to do with your army. If you're just using them as mobile firing platforms, you'll probably be fine with DS.
Mek Gunz are wonderful. They have just enough wounds that your opponent has to commit significant resources to killing them, but not so many that they're not likely to waste a bunch of shots overkilling them. And if you throw in a big mek with a KFF (I wouldn't do it just for the guns, but if you have one anyway to shield from alpha strike and that sort of thing), you can even heal up a gun they don't overkill, and 1/3 of wounding shots will be saved, so they REALLY have to be inefficient about overkilling stuff or they're pretty much back to square 1 next turn.
If you have your enemy shooting your mek gunz, you are probably on the path to a victory, almost no matter what the weapon is. I can't really think of anything that's efficient at shooting them, except maybe a T5-6 weapon with -1 or -2AP and 1 damage and not too many shots.
Unfortunately, GW knows how wondeful they are, which is why they cost $42. Or maybe they're wonderful because they cost $42. Chicken and the egg and all that...
I think we covered this before, but Freebooterz Chinork with Tankbustas embarked attacking a Flyer should make it possible to have 3+ Tankbustas who rerolls 1s and 2s to hit. Which is kinda gross.
I think that was a sarcastic response to my comment that less than a handful of decent to good shooting units (most of which rely on Stratagem and Kultur gimmicks to even be worth fielding) does not mean we "shoot better than we fight". Definitely failed to perform it's intended "gotcha", though.
Jidmah wrote: My experience with ES megatrakks is that the extra 2" (move+advance) aren't enough to make a difference.
Just as an FYI Jid - Evil Sunz Scrapjets (and all other ES Buggies, for that matter) move an extra 3" (+2" because 'Speed Freaks' and + 1" advance). I've found the extra movement to be very fun, particularly when we don't suffer a penalty for moving and firing Assault weapons.
Huh, I missed that ES get an extra +1 on speed freeks. That's would have actually been quite relevant on warbikers a couple of times.
yukishiro1 wrote: The bonus movement from ES scrapjets is way more than 2" - you get 2" just for movement, an extra +1 to advances and charges, and most importantly, you can advance and shoot without crippling your damage potential. So really in most situations you're looking at a realistic move of 10 for deffskulls scrapjets, vs 13-19 for ES ones. That's an average of 50% greater speed. Plus you get drive-by krumpin', so in fact if you spend 1 CP your move is 25-31", giving you potentially three times the speed...and the last 12 inches of that after you shoot, so you can pop out, shoot, and pop back out of LOS or even potentially straight-up range; lots of stuff with 24 inch weapons isn't going to be able to close back on their turn if you just backpedal.
Is it enough to justify taking them? I dunno. But it's a much bigger advantage than people here are giving it credit for.
As I said, I'm talking from experience. I have run five games with ES buggies and found that more movement isn't actually something that army needs. Yes, you do drive more inches, but it rarely matters. None of the buggies want to charge T1 and more often than not moving an extra 3"+d6 inches doesn't change what you can shoot.
I switched to deff skulls and suddenly the army went from "fun army that drives all over the place" to something that my opponents are genuinely afraid of. The re-rolls to hit and wound add up an all those buggies and the 6++ saves come up all the time, as basically all anti-tank weapons are AP-3 and even a single save usually means that you have one more buggy on the board.
Bluntly speaking, having a culture that affects all your models all the time is much more valuable than having a culture might make a difference on one or two models. ES is a great culture for things arriving from deep strike or T1 chargers, but not for gunboats driving up the board.
yukishiro1 wrote: Mek Gunz are wonderful. They have just enough wounds that your opponent has to commit significant resources to killing them, but not so many that they're not likely to waste a bunch of shots overkilling them. And if you throw in a big mek with a KFF (I wouldn't do it just for the guns, but if you have one anyway to shield from alpha strike and that sort of thing), you can even heal up a gun they don't overkill, and 1/3 of wounding shots will be saved, so they REALLY have to be inefficient about overkilling stuff or they're pretty much back to square 1 next turn.
If you have your enemy shooting your mek gunz, you are probably on the path to a victory, almost no matter what the weapon is. I can't really think of anything that's efficient at shooting them, except maybe a T5-6 weapon with -1 or -2AP and 1 damage and not too many shots.
Unfortunately, GW knows how wondeful they are, which is why they cost $42. Or maybe they're wonderful because they cost $42. Chicken and the egg and all that...
Doing the trukkonversion, you can get 4 mek gunz for 1 mek+trukk at a "decent" price (I'm not sure decent price even exist in warhammer).
Of course, that's a conversion, with all that implies
In the other hand, in ITC format, I use to have some problems with the "kill more" fact
Grotrebel wrote: Quick question about tellyporting a transport.
If I put a battle waggon with two units inside in the tellyporta, I need to pay 6 CP for that, right?
A friend of mine said that costs just 2 CP all together, which sounds too good to be true.
Please tell me I have not wasted CP all the time.
It's 2 CP to put whole thing. So yeah you have been wasting
Jidmah wrote: Bluntly speaking, having a culture that affects all your models all the time is much more valuable than having a culture might make a difference on one or two models. ES is a great culture for things arriving from deep strike or T1 chargers, but not for gunboats driving up the board.
I always charge my buggies in, excluding perhaps the SJD. It's not to kill stuff, it's so I can't be shot as easily. I've managed to lock many an opponent in their deployment zone all game thanks to the extra speed but admittedly I'm not facing particularly competitive opponents.
tneva82 wrote: Yep. It's great irony of ork kultures that the slower you are the more you want to be evil sun.
Absolutely.
Grotrebel wrote: Quick question about tellyporting a transport.
If I put a battle waggon with two units inside in the tellyporta, I need to pay 6 CP for that, right?
A friend of mine said that costs just 2 CP all together, which sounds too good to be true.
Please tell me I have not wasted CP all the time.
Greetings, fellow mushrooms. Another one of those "I'm trying to get back into 40K with Orks, what do I need to know?" incoming.
First things first: what books do I need these days? Rules and codex are a given, but there are quite a few expansions out there - which ones are mandatory?
I have plenty of models around, and do not want to play "competetively". I understand that "just paint what you want" is a reasoable approach for my case. Still: are there any "traps" to avoid in terms of units that are terribad even in friendly environments? Is there anything I really must have?
Some models I do not own, namely the new buggies not in the "Speed Freeks", the Gorka/Morkanaut and Flashgitz. Everything else (including the new buggies) is either available or could be converted.
Darnok wrote: First things first: what books do I need these days? Rules and codex are a given, but there are quite a few expansions out there - which ones are mandatory?
Mandatory is just the codex. Basic rules are available from GW for free, or you can get one of the fun-sized ones from one of the million of starter boxes. Do not buy the BRB, I haven't touched mine in over a year.
Chapter approved provides updates for point values, but also haven't touched that since I bought it besides helping someone out on this thread. I suggest building lists using battlescribe. That's how its done these days.
Vigilus Defiant is and optional add-on with some additional goodies for Dread Mobs, Speed Freeks and Blitz Brigade. Most of the rules in here can be found in battlescribe or online though.
I have plenty of models around, and do not want to play "competetively". I understand that "just paint what you want" is a reasoable approach for my case. Still: are there any "traps" to avoid in terms of units that are terribad even in friendly environments? Is there anything I really must have?
Check the list in the first post and the guide linked there, it should give you a rough idea. Avoid units that are red or worse. In general, you should decide between a mechanized/speed freeks approach or lots of footslogging units, they don't mesh well.
Must have would be at least one weird boy, a SAG and 3x gretchin. The weird boy with its power Da Jump is one of the most powerful assets we have. The SAG can take a relic that upgrades it twice as many shots and does a lot of heavily lifting in terms of anti-tank shooting. Gretchin are just needed to generate CP, feel free to ad more boyz and gretchin.
Depending on how long you were gone, this must be odd for you, as all thise used to be joke units for many editions.
Some models I do not own, namely the new buggies not in the "Speed Freeks", the Gorka/Morkanaut and Flashgitz. Everything else (including the new buggies) is either available or could be converted.
Thanks in advance!
Is there any specific clan you want to go for?
With the models available you should aim for three battalions looking something like this:
HQ (total 6):
1 Warboss (preferably on bike). Make sure he gets the killa klaw relic, otherwise he hits as if he were armed with a wet towel.
1-2 weird boyz
1-3 SAG, one taking the souped-up shokka
0-3 KFF Meks or Kaptin Badrukk
Troops (total 9):
3-9 10 gretchin
0-6 30 boyz, nob with PK or BC, 3 tank busta bombs. Pretty much any combination of choppa/shoota is fine, mix them to your taste.
The HQ bring utility, the troops a huge pile of CP to burn on our awesome stratagems. Boyz should be brought to the enemy via Da Jump or Tellyport. Do not walk them across the board.
If you lack models, you can do reasonable well with just two battalions, but don't bring more troops than you need. In this edition, it's toyz before boyz.
The dakka:
15 tank bustas or 15 lootas or 10 flash gits. Grot shields can protect just one unit, so pick one. Then just throw as many "shoot better" stratagems their way as you can and chose targets wisely.
Moar dakka:
Best here would be smasha guns, but they are insanely expensive per points. In my experience, any combination of planes, buggies, nauts, koptas or the big trakk can also fill this role more or less successful.
Stompy surprize:
Bring 5-10 MANz or 1-2 Deff Dreads or a Gorkanaut or a Bonebreaka and put them into the tellyport. Wait for a good opening to tellyport them in and ruin someone's day.
Alternatively you can field large units of storm boyz and coordinate them with Da Jumped/Tellyported boyz.
IMHO, the most generic and useful-in-all-situations unit of shooting in orkz is lootas. Flash gitz are not easy to play due to his low range + heavy weapon combination, mek gunz are nice but give a lot of kills in ITC, sags are too tanks oriented. Taking into account that they are only -1 AP, I think they're decent in a lot of scenarios.
I only have troubles playing lootas against agents of vect
To elaborate on my previous answer: lootaz, tank bustas and flash gits are really close if used properly. We have seen people do well in tournament with all of them, and all have guns that work well against pretty much everything.
The major difference between them is how you play them. Lootas stay in your deployment zone, protected by gretchin, flash gits usually need a transport to get somewhere T1 and then stand still for the rest of the game, tank bustas tellyport in, cause massive damage and then die.
You really need to find out which ones fit your playstyle best - if in doubt, just use the models you have.
When playing tournaments, I've find some troubles playing tankbustas, because they are extremely tanky oriented (obviously) and I faced some teams with 0 vehicles and I lost like 400 points in something that would throw 15 rockets at 5's.
Last tournament, I faced adepta sororitas, dark angels and imperial guard. My tankbustas were very useful against sororitas and extremly useful against imperial guard (it was IG + IK), this last one was tabled first turn (my SSAG, SAG and tankbustas annihilate all his vehicles, and my lootas killed all his infantry). But sometimes I play against people with no vehicles and they do nothing.
I think smashers and flash gitz can be more useful in tournaments because they are more generic, and tankbustas are very good in leagues or matches where you have some idea about what you'll face.
When you go LVO, you know the 90% of the team will be marines, because people will maximise his chance to win and will tryhard as hell, so you can go tankbustas. But in a local meta? In my local meta, there are a lot of drukhari, demons, T'au and custodes, are tankbustas that useful in middle-competitive levels? not sure
At least, that's what happened to me last 2 month.
Ah, and lootas were very useful in all matches, against all kind of armies.
Kebabcito wrote: Last tournament, I faced adepta sororitas, dark angels and imperial guard. My tankbustas were very useful against sororitas and extremly useful against imperial guard (it was IG + IK), this last one was tabled first turn (my SSAG, SAG and tankbustas annihilate all his vehicles, and my lootas killed all his infantry). But sometimes I play against people with no vehicles and they do nothing.
[...]
Ah, and lootas were very useful in all matches, against all kind of armies.
Huh, seems odd to me that lootas work for you, but tank bustas don't. Both kind of suck when infantry models with good saves (read: marines) are involved. I rarely find myself with a lack of target for them though unless I'm facing eldar jetbike spam.
Ye same here lootaz are good VS Aeldari and vs tau too just because of lotsa shoots, but that's it.
A fully buffed loota bad moon with double shoot more dakka kills average 7 primaris in cover or 10 without.
And you 100% need grots and grot shield. So 6 or more cp for killing about 9 primaris wtf no ty And 300 + points needed
Automatically Appended Next Post: An unbuffed flash git for 300 ( trukk +10 gitz) kills about 6 when hitting on 5+ without more dakka.
Hitting on 4+ 8-9 without buffs.
And have massiv better defensiv with 10 trukk wounds 3/4+ save ( loot it) or 2+ in cover.
And they can eat squishy things in meele of needed with 30 attacks Str5
Lootas are the generic, easy to use option...but their gun is a kind of weird profile that works against almost anything but doesn't excel against anything common - T6-7 even wound count models with bad saves are not very common. You have to spend 4CP and run them bad moons to make them really delete stuff, so that becomes a huge chunk of your CP budget. You also need at least 20 grots and the CP to shield them, so you're potentially looking at 5CP/turn for max performance, meaning most of your CP will be tied up in a single unit that, while dangerous, isn't actually THAT dangerous.
Tankbustas are obscene against vehicles, but will underperform for their points vs anything that doesn't have the vehicle keyword. They're pretty easy to use - the short range isn't such a problem since they're assault weapons. They work well in trukks or in the tellyporta. They also suffer slightly from the fact that orks have lots of other good anti-vehicle options (mek gunz, buggies, wazboms, warboss with relic klaw, SSAG, etc etc). Tankbustas are competitive with all of these, but they're not so clearly better that you'd auto-take them instead of a selection of the other options. So they fulfill the role they fulfill very well, but it's not a role the army is exactly short on.
Flash gitz have an awesome gun that will absolutely annihilate primaris infantry (or anything else T5 or below), but they're obscenely expensive, and get annihilated themselves by anything that annihilates primaris infantry...which, given how unbalanced the meta is, everybody you face is likely to have lots of. Their short range means sitting back behind a grot shield is difficult logistically. You pay a lot of points for their combat prowess, but you really don't want them in combat if you can possibly help it. The 2W profile is awesome against weapons that don't do more than 1 damage, but you really don't want them getting shot in the first place. Their klan kulture is obscenely good when it works, but making it work requires a lot of effort that tends to take away from the rest of your army (if you really want to make it work, mek gunz are probably the way to go to trigger it, seeing as the only thing they lose by taking them freebooterz is the ability to be healed by your big meks of other kultures). They can shoot vehicles if they need to, and do pretty well against T6 ones, but they'll struggle against T7, and you really don't want them doing that unless there is no elite infantry to delete. These guys have potentially the highest reward, but also the highest risk, and are the hardest to use.
I think the biggest knock against Lootas is they are boring AF. They also really limit what strategies you can employ.
1) They take up a gak ton of CP. Upwards of 6 a round ( Grot shields + More dakka + Showing off + CP shot re-roll). This limits what other stratagems you can employ.
2) They force you to take a bad moons detachment, which has very, very few optimal units for Orks (Basically just Lootas. MAYBEEE tankbustas, but I prefer putting my bustas in a vehicle anyway).
3) They are also basic static gunline nonsense which is probably the least fun way to play 40k.
Gits and TB require you to move them / tellyport them forward. I find they are quite a lot more dynamic. Neither requires a lot of CP either to be effective -- Tankbustas are *amazing* against vehicles without a single CP spent on them. And against normal units, they are the cheapest per point platform for rockets, which are always good to bring.
I have been loving tanbustas in vehicles. I prefer to try to play them so they survive 2 rounds, which is how I get them to shoot twice for free.
I feel sometimes Ork strategies employ a lot of glass cannon mentality which is rather boring and can really flop if the dice go against you on that 1 turn.
I dunno, that seems like a pretty inefficient use to me. 2CP to not shoot till T2, hitting on 5s, and almost certainly either won't survive to shoot again or will get charged and tarpitted.
300 points + 2cp for what is probably one volley of fire hitting on 5s doesn't strike me as great value.
From those three i tend to not use Tankbustas anymore. They never seemed to bring back their points with ether adding transporter costs to the total od getting deleted immediately after tellyporting.
Managed to throw 10 Tankbusta bombs with shooting twice once against an opponent that got to close with his knight, but there are way fewer knights out there right now and on tournaments i don`t really think i can pull that stunt of against someone, unless he`s not that experienced.
Only when playing 2-3 battlewaggons full with shooty stuff i field them from time to time if i am feeling funny.
My lists have normally enough antitank so i can gear up on lootas and Gitz instead.
Especially when playing against Death Guard i love playing 15 Lootas. They make 10 wounds on average on Morti shooting twice and kill him in one turn if i get 3 shots both times running as bad moons.
When they still cere able to mob up they one-shoted Morti basicly every game. Also they are quite easy to play against DG because they are slow and i can grotshield away any firepower over 24" my opponent has if he fields Crawlers or Leviathan(s).
Only downside is, if i take a DS detachment for SSAG and maybe an Evil Sunz detachment for Boys and Warboss with Killaclaw i have 30 Bad Monns grots tops which means against any opponent with serious long range firepower or else they still die turn 1 or 2.
If they kill 300+ points of stuff in 1-2 turns thats still a good trade for me.
Gitz as said before need a transport or to tellyport. Also they are the only unit of those 3 that makes sense taking more than one maxed unit because they don`t need to make use of "Showing Of" to get their full potential and are quite cheap on CP except the occasional "Loot it", which is fantastic near cover.
In my non-tournament area i had great success with 15-30 in battle waggons / trukks, but i don`t think they will work that well in a competetive field.
Their kinda allround profile makes them good against a lot of armies especially if you can get them to a point where they don`t need to move and get to fire on full BS.
On the subject of flash gitz, I'm trying to put together a freebooterz list that's fluffy and somewhat competitive but got no experience with orks at all.
Ideally I'd like to put everything in transports and will be bringing flash gitz for sure, but any ideas for other units that would work well would be a great help!
It's super expensive in $ per point, but mek gunz are even better than they are normally for freebooterz since they'll trigger the kulture, even though they don't benefit from it themselves. It's true you gotta be within 24, but it's pretty rare you won't be within 24 of your mek gunz with your 24 inch range gitz, certainly for the first turn. They also complement the gitz nicely, since gitz delete stuff T5 and below, but struggle against T7 and up (i.e. heavy vehicles).
They're kinda like the cannons on a pirate ship, so I'd probably go in that direction. I'm sure you could find a spot on the model to attach a pole with a pirate flag, too.
I really haven't thought this through, but if you're taking grots for troop choices, even if your units are mostly in transports it's probably worth having a weirdboy with da jump to toss the grots in front of gitz that don't/won't have the trukk's protection in the enemy's next shooting phase. Even if it just causes them to waste a squad shooting the grots before they turn their guns on the gitz, it's probably worth it. They can also be tossed around to claim objectives. It seems pretty piratey too, like a psychic equivalent of shooting the grots out of your cannons. He can always toss some mortal wounds and deny too.
Kebabcito wrote: Last tournament, I faced adepta sororitas, dark angels and imperial guard. My tankbustas were very useful against sororitas and extremly useful against imperial guard (it was IG + IK), this last one was tabled first turn (my SSAG, SAG and tankbustas annihilate all his vehicles, and my lootas killed all his infantry). But sometimes I play against people with no vehicles and they do nothing.
[...]
Ah, and lootas were very useful in all matches, against all kind of armies.
Huh, seems odd to me that lootas work for you, but tank bustas don't. Both kind of suck when infantry models with good saves (read: marines) are involved. I rarely find myself with a lack of target for them though unless I'm facing eldar jetbike spam.
He did say tank bustas did great vs sororitas and guard. What I find odd is how they were so useful vs sisters? Well maybe they werent' valorous heart but most especially competive ones are so tank bustas would be trying to hit 3+(2+ in cover) save ignoring -2- Top of that sisters are nowadays infantry heavy army(over 100 infantry isn't even unreasonable proposition...) so tank bustas aren't that useful. Furthermore what tanks sisters have tend to be exorcist or rhinos.- Well rhinos can be good to blow but exorcists are tank busters so unless he's running plenty of vehicles exorcists are shooting S8 -3 Dd6 shots at infantry.
i'd be paranoid about running tankbustas against sisters, that whole "ap1 or 2 becomes ap0" crap they can do and all.
Though i admit i forget if that works on their vehicles....
Trashpanda wrote: On the subject of flash gitz, I'm trying to put together a freebooterz list that's fluffy and somewhat competitive but got no experience with orks at all.
Ideally I'd like to put everything in transports and will be bringing flash gitz for sure, but any ideas for other units that would work well would be a great help!
There are some 3rd party producers that have some quite nice ork pirate heads, arms and bodies for conversions.
Mostly for boys but at least the heads might work on Gitz too. And you get some nice pirate boys /HQ conversions to acompany them as well.
For larger models i used lego pirate heads, they fit quite well.
As for tactics, Mek guns as said before are great to trigger the clan culture.
I tried Freebooterz lists as well, and used 30+10 shoota boys with mob up and Dakkajets.
They have enough Dakka to kill some screening stuff like imps, admech rangers, scouts and other low armour troops so your hard hitting units like Gitz get the full clan trait.
Or they get to hit on 4+ after the Mek gunz trigger CS. They also can "chain" the clan trait when you have gitz, flyers or buggies out of 24" to you Mek Gunz.
Mek Gunz trigger it first, then you shoot with boys / Dakkajet midfield, kill other stuff and trigger CS as well and that way even your advanced (hehe) stuff or tellyported units profit.
That is if you don`t want to mix clan cultures, as many units have prefered clan traits. Competetive lists nowadays tend to have multiple clan cultures.
Usually you run lootas and maybe / or one SAG as Bad Moons (double shooting strategem), Boys, Stormboyz and Warboss (on bike) as Evil Sunz (faster and 8" charge after tellyport / da jump) and shooty stuff like relic Shock Atack gun, other SAG, Morkanaut, Buggies und Blastajet as Death Skulls. (Because that clan culture is simply bonkers for low shot units.)
Blood Axes and Snakebites are - well let`s simply skip them unless you really love a Age of Sigmar themed back to the roots army or absolutely want to have drilled orks for some reason. Oh and there is goffs if you want to have harder hitting melee and go full CC.
If you don`t care about being fully competetive or still want to go freebooterz only thats what i would go for:
HQ: Badrukk, KFF Mek, 1-2 Wyrdboys (to jump 40 shootas, 30 grots and / or gitz), 1-3 SAG Meks (1 with Vigilus relic)
Troops: at least 1 mob of 30 gretchin for Grot shield, 30+10 shoota boys with 4 heavy weapons for mob up and enough mobs of 10 grot to fill at least 2 battalions / 1 brigade.
3 x 10 Flash Gits with battlawaggons / trukks
Shooty stuff like Scrapjet, Shockjump Dragsta, Wazbom Blastajet and Dakkajet.
At leasts thats about what i field with Freebooterz, but to be honest everything expect flash gitz and Badrukk is normally Death Skulls if i play competetive.^^
In my more fun games i had a lot success with 10+5 gitz and Badrukk with full ammo runts in a battle waggon and 5-10 gitz in a trukk, babysitted by a KFF Mek which gives me a solid fire base.
There have been some people playing around with cc Freebooterz lists as you can trigger the trait in cc as well, i personally don`t think its that good because we hit allready good in CC but have more problems getting our boys and stuff there.
Freebooters nobs with weapons like power claws and banner behind them will still hit on 2s though, if you want to exploid the cc aspect.
Your boys will hit on 1+, which is a nice gimmick against -to hit units but as said before, i don`t really see them being useful.
A little side note here: The hit modifier works good against units that set your characteristic on 6+ like that sneaky asassin, which you will now hit on 5+ / 4+ because modifiers are aplied to the set value.
Things might change if PA gives orks custom clan rules with the chance to combine +1 to charge with some other rule.
Hi
A while ago I asked what base to use for Mek Gunz and I ended up using 100mm round ones. I must say I am happy how they look, but 18 of them does have a considerably big footprint...
Kebabcito wrote: Last tournament, I faced adepta sororitas, dark angels and imperial guard. My tankbustas were very useful against sororitas and extremly useful against imperial guard (it was IG + IK), this last one was tabled first turn (my SSAG, SAG and tankbustas annihilate all his vehicles, and my lootas killed all his infantry). But sometimes I play against people with no vehicles and they do nothing.
[...]
Ah, and lootas were very useful in all matches, against all kind of armies.
Huh, seems odd to me that lootas work for you, but tank bustas don't. Both kind of suck when infantry models with good saves (read: marines) are involved. I rarely find myself with a lack of target for them though unless I'm facing eldar jetbike spam.
He did say tank bustas did great vs sororitas and guard. What I find odd is how they were so useful vs sisters? Well maybe they werent' valorous heart but most especially competive ones are so tank bustas would be trying to hit 3+(2+ in cover) save ignoring -2- Top of that sisters are nowadays infantry heavy army(over 100 infantry isn't even unreasonable proposition...) so tank bustas aren't that useful. Furthermore what tanks sisters have tend to be exorcist or rhinos.- Well rhinos can be good to blow but exorcists are tank busters so unless he's running plenty of vehicles exorcists are shooting S8 -3 Dd6 shots at infantry.
I would take lootas vs sisters myself.
Tankbustas focused mortifiers, exorcist were annihilated by SSAG and SAG (and lootas), rest of lootas an 90 boyz killed sisters, free win for me
Nora wrote: Hi
A while ago I asked what base to use for Mek Gunz and I ended up using 100mm round ones. I must say I am happy how they look, but 18 of them does have a considerably big footprint...
There are roughly $5000.00 of mek gunz in this picture.
Nora wrote: Hi
A while ago I asked what base to use for Mek Gunz and I ended up using 100mm round ones. I must say I am happy how they look, but 18 of them does have a considerably big footprint...
There are roughly $5000.00 of mek gunz in this picture.
You might have one zero to much there but that's why I scarp-built them (except from two).
thats why everyone scrapbuilds them.
IF it was a 50 for 2 but you couldnt make the same weapon twice or something i imagine people would be less upset about that price (since kitbashing a new gun head is pretty simple).
But 50 for 1? thats gotta be a contender for the worst $$ to points ratio in the game.
Vineheart01 wrote: i'd be paranoid about running tankbustas against sisters, that whole "ap1 or 2 becomes ap0" crap they can do and all.
Though i admit i forget if that works on their vehicles....
It does. Unlike chaos sisters get order bonuses on vehicles and the banner specifes just (order) units. No infantry.
So yeh they aren't too scared. Even shooting twice 15 won't take out exorcist. Rhino probably dies due to t7.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
tulun wrote: New ITC info out. How do folks who are deep into that feel?
Not much has changed from what i saw so likely orks gets shafted again in that anti-40k
Some interesting things in it, bonus points are far easier to accomplish, secondaries are tweaked a bit and now you have to take a maneuver one and a kill one then one more which can be old school or another kill/maneuver. Seize is Kaput, only two missions use fixed objective positions now. The rest are placed after you know deployment type and sides. When you table someone you only score objectives for the rest of the game. Conceding doesn’t wipe out your points , you keep whatever you scored.
its kinda amusing to hear people preferring the base GW missions over the community ones for various tournaments.
Usually its very, very much the other way around lol
Vineheart01 wrote: i'd be paranoid about running tankbustas against sisters, that whole "ap1 or 2 becomes ap0" crap they can do and all.
Though i admit i forget if that works on their vehicles....
It does. Unlike chaos sisters get order bonuses on vehicles and the banner specifes just (order) units. No infantry.
So yeh they aren't too scared. Even shooting twice 15 won't take out exorcist. Rhino probably dies due to t7.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
tulun wrote: New ITC info out. How do folks who are deep into that feel?
Not much has changed from what i saw so likely orks gets shafted again in that anti-40k
Vineheart01 wrote: its kinda amusing to hear people preferring the base GW missions over the community ones for various tournaments.
Usually its very, very much the other way around lol
Well. Do you prefer actual 40k or house rule ones that are shown to make balance worse with gap between best and worst increasing with Iron hands in particular getting about 10% win rate boost thanks to house rules.
Especially for orks official should be prefered. House ruled ones wipes almost fifth of winrate. Fun fun fun.
One of my teammates in tournaments play GK, I can no longer mark all his troops for death :(
I'm thinking about what to swap for the battlewagon + tankbustas, about 400 points free, I've been thinking in 4-5 smashers and 30 kommando/stormboyz deepstriking and grabbing some objectives, bonus or just for blocking in combat enemy units.
Kebabcito wrote: One of my teammates in tournaments play GK, I can no longer mark all his troops for death :(
I'm thinking about what to swap for the battlewagon + tankbustas, about 400 points free, I've been thinking in 4-5 smashers and 30 kommando/stormboyz deepstriking and grabbing some objectives, bonus or just for blocking in combat enemy units.
Hmm. I mean do you have coverage without tankbustas? Those smashas won’t last long.
I’d do Stormboyz. You can start them on the board or go deep strike.
I think I might try to do a Warkopta conversion of some kind for tankbustas. Dropping 10 down from deep strike for free sounds sick.
Plus you can give the Kopta a KMB. As a death skull, for 83 points, 2 deff guns plus a KMB sounds nice. Plus on the off chance enemies have flying, your TB can hit on a 4+.
Holy Gork or Mork, fought dose Valrus hart sistas for the first time today, Dey’s some ded Ard humies Dey is, one great rukk we had. Their ignore ap-1 and even -2 near characters makes them mighty resistant to our Dakka. Finished 26-31 with less than 20 models between us left on the table. Using the new itc beta rules, I like em.
* Deffkopta and kommandos are gonna be huge. Behind enemy line and king of the hill make them a great scoring unit.
* Gangbusters still feth up our men gunz (Kans are crap anyway so nothing new there)
* Zagstrck could be our Postman, same for Zahdnarsk or warboss on bike.
* New recon with buggies is a MUST
* Board control is so big now that we can EASILY have the upper hand
* We have the chance to build a extremely good defence army, just aswell attack army
* Wanna go full boyz or mecha, spam KFF is a must
* You can tailor lists to every tournament since TO can now use CA 19 missions , know YOUR meta
* Primaris bleeding reaper is great. Meganobz, unfortunately will do the same.
All in all, very happy about the changes. Might be a tad to unbalanced towards being the defender, but we LL see.
Side note, I heard some rumors (pretty solid ones) about 9th coming out this summer and the game being resized. We might still need to suffer those 3 gakky supplements for a while and enjoy PA for nomore than 4 months, so hold your wallet and play around what you have. This is what I'll do anyway.
The 9th ed won't invalidate codexes and PA's. And as such scale of changes won't be huge. More to effect of upgraded terrain rules and maybe some tweaks on CP generation. But nothing that will invalidate current codexes and supplements.
* Deffkopta and kommandos are gonna be huge. Behind enemy line and king of the hill make them a great scoring unit.
* Gangbusters still feth up our men gunz (Kans are crap anyway so nothing new there)
* Zagstrck could be our Postman, same for Zahdnarsk or warboss on bike.
* New recon with buggies is a MUST
* Board control is so big now that we can EASILY have the upper hand
* We have the chance to build a extremely good defence army, just aswell attack army
* Wanna go full boyz or mecha, spam KFF is a must
* You can tailor lists to every tournament since TO can now use CA 19 missions , know YOUR meta
* Primaris bleeding reaper is great. Meganobz, unfortunately will do the same.
All in all, very happy about the changes. Might be a tad to unbalanced towards being the defender, but we LL see.
Glad you're stoked on it. I think the ITC meta for Orks is so freaking boring, and maybe this will shake it up. At least a fast attack centric, infiltration style list sounds a lot more fun than just taking 120+ Ork Boyz.
I don't think the reaper change matters for Orks all that much, as no matter what, the enemy is probably getting Reaper on you anyway. Grots die in droves, and you still have to take a billion. If MANz or Gits give them up more quickly, so be it.
I do think Mek Gunz will probably need to be moved away from in ITC. Too easy for Kill More, gangbusters targets, etc. Plus they are a very uninteresting unit to field. I sort if you wish you could Tellyport them in, because it would be hilarious to drop like 6 smasha guns or 6 traktor kannons somewhere on turn 2.
I'm excited to see what people brew up in the new mission list.
Before I start, I'll apologise for re-hashing old ground.
I asked recently about the better general purpose shooting unit for Deathskulls out of lootas, tankbustas and flash gitz. I've been doing some playtesting and am leaning towards flash gitz at the moment, but I have come across another potential choice: deffkoptas with rokkits.
What are people's thoughts on these?
My local meta is semi-competitive, in that people will take some fluffy choices and stuff we think is cool, but the armies are still geared towards winning more often than not. Generally if a unit or two were switched out we would have an army you could expect to see at a tournament.
As far as mobility goes; I tend to run footsloggers with two weirdboys for jumping about as needed. Obviously the deffkoptas are good for stealing objectives and zipping about, but they are likely to get singled out early because they're generally faster than everything else. The lootas would be sitting still, and the bustas/gitz would either be risking it on foot or being jumped into position to hopefully destroy whatever they shoot at.
As far as putting out high power shots goes; The rokkits mean that four of them put out as much firepower as an eight strong unit of tankbustas, but trading reliability for some speed and bulk. The lootas put out decent damage, but are swingy and CP hungry. Tankbustas are good for killing vehicles but can be lacklustre elsewhere. Gitz put out reliable volume of D2 shots with decent accuracy, but suffer against higher T targets. And obviously range comes into play for bustas and gitz.
At the moment, I have about 190 points to play about with that will either be used for lootas, gitz, bustas, or now potentially koptas. Any gaps in the numbers can just be plugged with more grots.
TLR
Are koptas with rokkits good as a reliable shooting unit in a usually primaris/death guard heavy meta compared to TBs, lootas and FGs?
:EDIT:
Before they get mentioned, I know mek guns are good, but I don't fancy remortgaging for a few smasha guns.
Afrodactyl wrote: Before I start, I'll apologise for re-hashing old ground.
I asked recently about the better general purpose shooting unit for Deathskulls out of lootas, tankbustas and flash gitz. I've been doing some playtesting and am leaning towards flash gitz at the moment, but I have come across another potential choice: deffkoptas with rokkits.
What are people's thoughts on these?
I just came back from a game running 5 and since their point drop a unit of 5 rokkit koptas has become a staple in my army. They have yet to disappoint me and provide what's basically a swiss army knife that's gut at a huge number of tasks.
While they are decent at taking out fliers with long, uncontrolled bursts, they don't even remotely compare with tank bustas.
As far as putting out high power shots goes; The rokkits mean that four of them put out as much firepower as an eight strong unit of tankbustas, but trading reliability for some speed and bulk.
The re-rolls aren't just reliability, they are also damage. Tank bustas also come with bomb squigs, which massively add to their damage.
TLR
Are koptas with rokkits good as a reliable shooting unit in a usually primaris/death guard heavy meta compared to TBs, lootas and FGs?
Short answer is no, they simply don't compare. The trick with the aforementioned units is that you multiply their damage with stratagems, to put out vastly more shooting than you paid points for. Koptas just have too little shooting to be a good target for stratagems. Ten rokkits simply don't compare to 15 rokkits and 6 bomb squigs with re-rolls, 30 deff gun or snazz gun shots.
Deff koptas are a great unit, but fill a different role than those CP sinks do.
I've played quite a lot of games with 4 deffkoptas with rokkit as deathskulls, and I didnt really like them, they are not reliable, they are very weak and, at the end, the only thing I did with them is to grab some recons.
I'm thinking in swapping the 15 tankbustas+5 squiggs with 10 flash gitz and badrukk in the BW, and no mek gunz, due to the kill more.
Anyways, still worried about the fact that pirates are heavy and I'm not sure how to play them
* Deffkopta and kommandos are gonna be huge. Behind enemy line and king of the hill make them a great scoring unit.
* Gangbusters still feth up our men gunz (Kans are crap anyway so nothing new there)
* Zagstrck could be our Postman, same for Zahdnarsk or warboss on bike.
* New recon with buggies is a MUST
* Board control is so big now that we can EASILY have the upper hand
* We have the chance to build a extremely good defence army, just aswell attack army
* Wanna go full boyz or mecha, spam KFF is a must
* You can tailor lists to every tournament since TO can now use CA 19 missions , know YOUR meta
* Primaris bleeding reaper is great. Meganobz, unfortunately will do the same.
All in all, very happy about the changes. Might be a tad to unbalanced towards being the defender, but we LL see.
Glad you're stoked on it. I think the ITC meta for Orks is so freaking boring, and maybe this will shake it up. At least a fast attack centric, infiltration style list sounds a lot more fun than just taking 120+ Ork Boyz.
I don't think the reaper change matters for Orks all that much, as no matter what, the enemy is probably getting Reaper on you anyway. Grots die in droves, and you still have to take a billion. If MANz or Gits give them up more quickly, so be it.
I do think Mek Gunz will probably need to be moved away from in ITC. Too easy for Kill More, gangbusters targets, etc. Plus they are a very uninteresting unit to field. I sort if you wish you could Tellyport them in, because it would be hilarious to drop like 6 smasha guns or 6 traktor kannons somewhere on turn 2.
I'm excited to see what people brew up in the new mission list.
Very good point about the Manz. It might actually be a bonus if you field Smashaguns, but, as you said, they bleed VP . I REALLY want kill more gone. Is just stupid and boring. Let's see what tomorrow brings and we can start to talk about new lists with PA.i got a tournament next week and 60boyz + 23 stormboyz is the only thing I could come up Vs IH meta
Problem with rokkit koptas is the actual price of the rokkits. My recomendation is to play them with the same rolle as bikers rather than tankbustas. Try a 5*with twin heavy shootas and use them to bully screens. The 2d3 s5 attacks in CC are decent and can clear one screen a turn. Add another with the 30 s5 shoots. And boom! Points back. A mere 150pts that can prove to be very annoying
Nora wrote: Can you please confirm that it is accepted for passenger of a FreeBooter trukk to benefit from FreeBooter trait if they also are FreeBooter?
Officially rulewise yes. As a matter of fact passengers wouldn't have to be freeboota to benefit except you can't load non-freeboota unit into freeboota transport.
What your group's house rules say is another thing.
Nora wrote: Can you please confirm that it is accepted for passenger of a FreeBooter trukk to benefit from FreeBooter trait if they also are FreeBooter?
Officially rulewise yes. As a matter of fact passengers wouldn't have to be freeboota to benefit except you can't load non-freeboota unit into freeboota transport.
What your group's house rules say is another thing.
This. The open topped rule transfers all modifiers to its passengers, irrespective of their source.
If your transport isn’t freebooter then it doesn’t receive the +1 to hit, so it has nothing to transfer. So you need to bring a freebooter detachment, it’s annoying really
If your transport isn’t freebooter then it doesn’t receive the +1 to hit, so it has nothing to transfer. So you need to bring a freebooter detachment, it’s annoying really
Well he was specifically asking for freeboota trukk so...
Afternoon guys, I played the most ridiculous game so far this edition.
We are playing a narrative campaign at my FLGS with an escalation element. I played my first game last night and....wow, it was one sided as all hell. Keep in mind we are starting at 500pts and going up to 2,000 with a 500pt increase each week.
I played against Ad Mech who brought along a tech priest of some sort, 3 of those walking robots and a dune crawler along with some random infantry.
I brought my character, a Big Mek with a SSAG, 3 squads of 10 grotz, 4 Mek Gunz (Smasha Guns) and 2 scrapjets.
The game literally ended halfway through turn 1. My opening salvo went as follows, my Mek Gunz killed his dunecrawler which gave everyone nearby +1 to hit (Freebootas) My Big Mek with SSAG killed all of his walkers, my 2 scrapjets killed his HQ and finished off most of his squad of infantry in cover. On his turn he had 4 infantry left standing.
Well for one Your army is hardly casual. And if there's not much terrain it's going to be largely you go first, you auto win.
Furthermore game is designed around 2k level and scales up and down very badly. Already shaky balance is totally off the tracks in smaller or bigger games.
Play with more terrain. Here you can't alpha strike that freely even in 2k game and in 500 pts there's lot less you need to be able to hide. If he could not hide even part of his army...well gosh that's why playing on planet bowling ball sucks.
Jidmah wrote: To be fair, the ad mech guy would have probably done the same with his list if those robots would have gotten to shoot.
Which just shows how desperately there needed to be more terrain. Or they should try the deployment style GW has had for like over year. One side deploys army first and goes first, other deploys second and goes second. That way if you go 2nd you can hide to avoid being tabled like that. Doing deploy first and then roll who goes first is just making games be decided on that roll.
T1 tables just should not happen. There's plenty of tools against that especially in true 40k(aka the way GW designed it) these days to ensure it can't happen. 500 pts more so.
I havnt read the previous story articles so duno if they ever hint at whats coming, but if this hints at anything its that we may get a bunch of named characters, not a generic.
I already keep wishing for them to do the whole "collect them all" boxes for ork characters that theyve done with marines. Would be an easy to way to give us the absolute gakton of characters mentioned in lore but not present in the game.
I havnt read the previous story articles so duno if they ever hint at whats coming, but if this hints at anything its that we may get a bunch of named characters, not a generic.
I already keep wishing for them to do the whole "collect them all" boxes for ork characters that theyve done with marines. Would be an easy to way to give us the absolute gakton of characters mentioned in lore but not present in the game.
I would kill for a Wazzdakka model. Nazdreg would be cool too. Each clan could do with at least 1 named character to be honest. Goffs and Deathskulls seem to have a bit of a monopoly at the mo.
Have a tournament in march and wanted to try my fun list against a top tier army today.
Mission, like in the tournament was eternal war + maelstrom. (Had the mission where 4 markers get 1 VP for you in your deployment zone, 2 VP euch the ones in the middle and 4VP for the one in your opponents deployment zone at the end of each battle round.
I had
Deathskulls: SSAG (sniper trait), SAG, 3 Dragsta, Wazbom, 30 grot
Bad Moons: 2 wyrdboys, 15 loota, 30 grot
Freebootaz: KFF, SAG, 10 gitz in trukk, Dakkajet, 30grots, 2 smashas
He had
IH successors: character Leviathan, Iron Stone techmarine, 2 Chap Dreads, stalker Intercessors, scouts
RG successors: assault Cents, jumppack Chaplain, Smashcaptain, Infiltrators
Dark Angels: Sammael on Corvex, Talonmaster, Intercessors
He spend 9 CP pregame on relics, traits etc.
Needless to say the list is a huge pain, but i wanted to test what my list could do.
Deployment was Hammer and anvil.
I tellyported the gitz and got to go first, he hid all his good stuff behind a large building, i was only able to kill some scouts and marines. 12 MW on 2 scouts with SSAG - yikes.
Jumped the freeboota SAG that got CS from the Dakkajet but sadly no hits. Wazbom shot on the Centurions with moar dakka, only got 3 wounds which he all saved...
1 dragsta triggered eternal duty on the levi to steal some CP, all damage got recovered by his master of the forge.
His first turn he stayed there, killed the 2 flyers and the jumped SAG. He also recovered his amazing screening and put some souts and marines on the 2 midfield objectives for 4 VP, which left turn 1 with 8:5 for him.
My second turn SSAG, SAG and smashas killed another 3 camping squads, jumped lootas used showing off & more dakka to kill... 2 scouts and 4 intercessors. Insane saving throws both his turns.
Dragstas jumped around and killed screening stuff and softly touched the levi again to steal CP. His screening and positioning was solid again, no chance to get to those Cents or his mech characters.
Thats why i held the gitz for turn 3. This time the other SAG managed to pull of 9 Mortal wounds + Damage to kill... 3 Intercessors. At least an upgrade.^^
He smoked the lootas and got another round of good Eternal War VP staying behind that damned ruin. Killed the 3 dragstas as well.
By the end of turn he took the lead with 14:8
My 3rd turn i ported the gitz in who did an amazing job of killing 1 scout and 2 intercessors. Smashas and SAG killed another 2 units of troops, SSAG tried its luck shooting the leviathan twice, which stood with 5 wounds remaining. Of course S4 and 7 against him with 0 mortal wounds. He killed the trukk and the lootas, 1 smasha and half my grot after finally coming forward into the midfield.
Turn 3 ended with about 19:11 for him.
4th turn i ported the SAG, did nothing on those cents and SSAG failed vs Levi again. Smasha failed as well.
His turn the cents finally came into my deployment zone, killed 20 grot, his other stuff killed the other smasha and advanced mostly for the final strike.
At this point i had only the SSAG with 20 grot, 2 wyrdboys and KFF left and he was about 24:12 ahead.
Tournament rules are 20:0 if you get 20+ VP more, so my 5th turn i chose Kill the warlord, kill a character and scour the skies and ported my warlord into his (finally) broken screening, to use the sniper warlord trait to kill his jump pack chaplain warlord, which would have gotten me 5 VP. The game was lost but i didn`t want to go down 20:0.
Well the SSAG tried his best, but got laught at with 5 S4 shots, that actually managed to do 2 wounds which got both saved.
His turn 5 he tabled me and got a hell lot of points with his DA characters speeding forward and controlling all 6 markers turn 6.
Final score was about 40:12 which would have been a 20:0.
He really felt bad for his saving throws and got quite lucky with maelstrom as well, my cards were catastrophic from turn 3 on.
classic maelstrom, even with the new mission there can be bad games i guess.^^
Conclusion: He had amazing luck with his saves and all my extreme SSAG shooting phases had the worst possible timing, on top of that the mission with our deployment was a nightmare to play.
Might better have given him the first turn to deny that 4 VP points each turn for the 2 objectives midfield.
Lootas were a disappointment, also he deployed great so they had no viable targets. Without grotshield they die horribly. Would have been better to keep them back where they had good line of sight and prevented him leaving his LOS blocking ruin because most of my dakka had good midfield LOS.
Made a mistake with the gitz as well, would have been better to tellyport the truck behind another ruin, looking around the corner for gitz shooting and then disembark out of sight after the trukk got destroyed.
Gave him to cheap kills that way as and loosing them, the flyers and the jumping dragstas killed my dakka quite fast.
Those infiltrators + screening were a huge pain for tellyport & da jump.
Might throw the lootas out, they are great vs. many opponents but i hate how unflexible they are and how much they depend on their grot shield and the right table setup.
Really want to make a list without boys work for that tournament.
Maybe switch the lootas for tankbustas / more gitz / buggies / mek gunz?
Or simply go for the naut.
Against lots of long range antitank i can still tellyport a good amount of dakka and hide the rest.
acme2468 wrote: That Pic ,Gorking 'ell , maybe its just the way its shot but Ghazz's Base Looks Huge. Thats gotta be a 80MM base don't you think?
We're getting Ghazz and Makari, and now you want all of our other Boss's and Characters? Good luck with that.
The community article strongly hinted ghaz is in prime ork status... which should make him huge....
And honestly this sets the stage for GW to make bigger orks and refresh ork boyz in the future w new scar boyz models being slightly bigger orks.
And while I beleive we are only getting ghaz/Makari and a big Mek w kff I sure do hope we get a warboss in mega armor kit that can make multiple named characters.....plus new kommando/tankbusta kit.... and a wasdakka gutsmek/warboss in bike kit... and well you get the idea....
I'd be surprised as hell if boyz get any treatment in a long ass time.
Kommandoz and Tankbustas (which are technically boyz with special roles or toyz) need a kit purely because of crapcast. But the basic boy model is still pretty good, despite its age.
I'd wager about 80% of the codex needs an update before regular boyz need one.
That's just a regular warboss with a helmet. Basically a mix between AOBR warboss or Grukk and the old big choppa warboss. Unless that's a never seen before artwork, I wouldn't read too much into it.
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Vineheart01 wrote: I havnt read the previous story articles so duno if they ever hint at whats coming, but if this hints at anything its that we may get a bunch of named characters, not a generic.
The only thing of note was the mentioning of madboyz and a herd of weirdboyz that was driven towards the enemy. Everything else mentioned already has one or more dedicated models. Nothing new about that though, it's basically a repeat of something we had in our fluff since forever.
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An Actual Englishman wrote: I would kill for a Wazzdakka model. Nazdreg would be cool too. Each clan could do with at least 1 named character to be honest. Goffs and Deathskulls seem to have a bit of a monopoly at the mo.
Deathskulls just have Grotznik though? Goff is Thrakka, Zagstrukk and Buzzgob Evil Suns have Zhardsnark Blood Axes have Snikrot Freebootas have Badrukk Snakebites and Bad Moons got nothing because Nazdregg and Ol'Zogwort bit the dust. Thanks Obama! chapterhouse!
Originally, every clan had a named character, plus Thrakka as the big boss.
However, at this point I'd not be surprised if Wazzdakka came back as a model at some point. There are plenty of characters with model support that get mentioned less in the fluff.
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Vineheart01 wrote: I'd be surprised as hell if boyz get any treatment in a long ass time.
Kommandoz and Tankbustas (which are technically boyz with special roles or toyz) need a kit purely because of crapcast. But the basic boy model is still pretty good, despite its age.
I'd wager about 80% of the codex needs an update before regular boyz need one.
I also don't think there have been any replacements of plastic kits recently.
My hope for new boyz models are not a replacement of the current ones (which I imagine GW would be wary of anyways since so many ork players already have more than enough boyz) but rather actual models for skarboyz and 'ardboyz. Retire the strats for them (give goffs something else) and make them slightly more elite troop choices. That RE boot is basically guaranteed to be an ork and while it could be a long awaited tankbusta/kommando kit I'd much rather get more troop options.
I imagine we might know more the 22nd, although it's quite possible that's "only" a Ghaz reveal..
Edit: That is if there's anything at all revealed at the toy fair, considering it's usually just weird one-off games..
Some super heavy infantry, above Terminator level would be rather interesting to have for us. Like Centurion or Orgyn level with good armour and weapons. It is something of a shortage in our army list. Tough, tough models.
PiñaColada wrote: My hope for new boyz models are not a replacement of the current ones (which I imagine GW would be wary of anyways since so many ork players already have more than enough boyz) but rather actual models for skarboyz and 'ardboyz. Retire the strats for them (give goffs something else) and make them slightly more elite troop choices. That RE boot is basically guaranteed to be an ork and while it could be a long awaited tankbusta/kommando kit I'd much rather get more troop options.
I imagine we might know more the 22nd, although it's quite possible that's "only" a Ghaz reveal..
Edit: That is if there's anything at all revealed at the toy fair, considering it's usually just weird one-off games..
honestly i think they're just going to use the ardboyz rule (if it becomes a worthwhile unit/upgrade) to convince people to buy ironjawz ardboyz, its an easy conversion with the mountain of leftover boy bitz anyway or or they could just make them full melee units in the rules.
cody.d. wrote: Some super heavy infantry, above Terminator level would be rather interesting to have for us. Like Centurion or Orgyn level with good armour and weapons. It is something of a shortage in our army list. Tough, tough models.
I think MANz are in that place.
Maybe we could build some shields with MANz or something like that
PiñaColada wrote: My hope for new boyz models are not a replacement of the current ones (which I imagine GW would be wary of anyways since so many ork players already have more than enough boyz) but rather actual models for skarboyz and 'ardboyz. Retire the strats for them (give goffs something else) and make them slightly more elite troop choices. That RE boot is basically guaranteed to be an ork and while it could be a long awaited tankbusta/kommando kit I'd much rather get more troop options.
I imagine we might know more the 22nd, although it's quite possible that's "only" a Ghaz reveal..
Edit: That is if there's anything at all revealed at the toy fair, considering it's usually just weird one-off games..
honestly i think they're just going to use the ardboyz rule (if it becomes a worthwhile unit/upgrade) to convince people to buy ironjawz ardboyz, its an easy conversion with the mountain of leftover boy bitz anyway or or they could just make them full melee units in the rules.
Gw doesn't have rules for models without respective kit to sale so good luck with that.
For new units have to wait for new codex with new kits
And it's not ease of converting. Canoness with boltgun, rod and power sword doesn't sound that hard to convert right? Nope. That option was removed from Sisters codex with errata. Can't have options needing conversions.
Darnok wrote: First things first: what books do I need these days? Rules and codex are a given, but there are quite a few expansions out there - which ones are mandatory?
Mandatory is just the codex. Basic rules are available from GW for free, or you can get one of the fun-sized ones from one of the million of starter boxes. Do not buy the BRB, I haven't touched mine in over a year.
Chapter approved provides updates for point values, but also haven't touched that since I bought it besides helping someone out on this thread. I suggest building lists using battlescribe. That's how its done these days.
Vigilus Defiant is and optional add-on with some additional goodies for Dread Mobs, Speed Freeks and Blitz Brigade. Most of the rules in here can be found in battlescribe or online though.
Just to add to this, the upcoming Psychic Awakening 6 Saga of the Beast is also going to contain new rules for Orks including Ghazghkul Thraka, so 10/10 would recommend getting that too when it drops.
Technically no marine supplement is neccessary either. Of course you are giving up free power though.
Of course depends do you want to play underpowered or not. Good luck finding competive list withoup ssag. Pa will likely have something seen in use as well. Has any yet been complete dud ignored complely by relevant faction?
PA is being treated like a codex expansion book rather than what vigilus was of "hey theres some rules you can possibly use!"
Yea, expansions in any game arent required...might wanna get it though
We are in a good spot and there is no reason now for buffing orks, after more than a year of the codex, so I wouldn't expect too much of a change in our metagame in the stratagems they give to us
Played against AM yesterday, 2000p itc and stuff. I was going 90 boyz, 10 smashers, 15 lootas, 2 SAG and so on.
First turn I can charge with some boyz, lootas kill bullgryns and my 2 SAG kill 2 tanks. He kills my boyz.
Second turn, lootas and smashers shoot thousand of shoots into his army, my boyz invade all the map and the 2 SAG oneshoot some more vehicles, GG.
I feel far stronger with 90 boyz and smashers than when I used to play with 60 boyz and tankbustas.
Kommando are kinda annoying for the enemy too, since they are max 15 per unit, I can deepstrike with 2 units + DaJumping 30 boyz.
The...hell?
That honestly makes me wonder if those are a joke. A 2+ invul? even on something that at best can only do 6 mortal wounds in melee thats still comically powerful.
Apparently he's always had a 2++. With this, I'd wager he's gonna be an independent character, rather than an add-on for Ghaz, since giving Ghaz a 2++ (since you can use the highest T, but you use the Save of the model you choose to take the Wound) would be crazy good. Which means "all-Kultur" Ghaz is still a possibility, while he could only be accompanied by Makari if you bring Goffs.
Yeah i doubt he's a "grot oiler" for ghaz now. That is just ridiculous if he isnt a standalone, probably 30-40pt HQ. Could be an elite character but he seems to have too strong a stigma about him to not be an hq choice. Potentially since they mention nothing about his banner being a bonus for non-gretchin it could be the "Ghaz is better in a goff army" mechanic, where Makari extends something Ghaz has that normally isnt goff-locked, but the extension of it is. (doubt gw thinks that deep though)
I wager if he takes up a separate slot, ghaz is still required. I reckon he’s just an upgrade or included as part of the cost ( maybe why ghaz didn’t go up?)
Shaving off 22-32 points for a CP bat would be funny I guess.
Yeah, I was kinda shocked that his aura is kultur locked to Goffs, since unfortunately they're one of the factions least likely to use it (Freebootas and Bad Moonz being the primary beneficiaries of the Grot Shield Stratagem). I was expecting his aura to be closer to that of the Red Gobbo and not being restricted. He's definitely very beefy for a grot but I'm not sure what his role is beyond a cheap HQ slot filler (though being Goffs limits his usefulness...).
like i said before, if GW pays any attention at ALL to tournaments or even just comments they will make Ghaz unlocked. If hes goff locked they auto-kill more than half of their sales for him. Some people like me will get him anyway because sexy new model must have but a lot will pass because they'll never, ever use him.
That is assuming they dont revamp Goffs in the process. Unlikely to do so since nobody else has had that done but its possible.
tulun wrote: GW, Goffs suck hard. Please tell me you didn’t Goff lock your new banner model.
Having played Da Red Gobbo quite a few times, I wouldn't care too much whether a ld6 aura is goff locked or not. You can still drop him in a weirdboy battalion of any type and exploit his 2++ for scoring or tanking some melee monster.
tulun wrote: GW, Goffs suck hard. Please tell me you didn’t Goff lock your new banner model.
Having played Da Red Gobbo quite a few times, I wouldn't care too much whether a ld6 aura is goff locked or not. You can still drop him in a weirdboy battalion of any type and exploit his 2++ for scoring or tanking some melee monster.
Yep, why I noted we can take him in a mixed easy. Just sort of annoying we have to do some limited jank for a model that fluff wise even should be in any army.
Regarding clan bonuses: honestly, you can easily build a list where this doesn’t matter. Grots don’t get clan bonuses, weirdboys basically don’t care, and you can still tuck stuff like Mek guns in ( heck make them freebootas for your flash gits).
I'm wondering if there might also be stratagems that would provide some sort of klan-mixing effects that would explain why he only affects Goff units. A big part of the changes for all the PA so far aren't just the DIY factions traits but the tweaks to an army you can do via stratagems. Maybe something along those lines are going to happen with this as well?
An Actual Englishman wrote: I would kill for a Wazzdakka model. Nazdreg would be cool too. Each clan could do with at least 1 named character to be honest. Goffs and Deathskulls seem to have a bit of a monopoly at the mo.
Deathskulls just have Grotznik though?
Goff is Thrakka, Zagstrukk and Buzzgob
Evil Suns have Zhardsnark
Blood Axes have Snikrot
Freebootas have Badrukk
Snakebites and Bad Moons got nothing because Nazdregg and Ol'Zogwort bit the dust. Thanks Obama! chapterhouse!
Originally, every clan had a named character, plus Thrakka as the big boss.
However, at this point I'd not be surprised if Wazzdakka came back as a model at some point. There are plenty of characters with model support that get mentioned less in the fluff.
For some reason I thought Grotsnik and Snikrot were the same clan?!
Yea, to be fair there isn't a bad split, now you've pointed it out. I wasn't thinking of FW characters, but I suppose we need to add Makari for Goffs now. Who've got way more than the other clans lol
The Goff lock for Makari, if it's the case, is actually quite irritating. You can only use [Clan] Gretchin to Grot Shield so unless you want a Goff SAG, or Goff Lootas, or Goff Tankbustas, there is very little use for Goff Grots outside of taking up board space and providing CP, which is something I can do for infinitely more utility if I take Grots that are the same Clan as my SAG, Lootas or Tankbustas.
It would be utterly stupid if Ghaz is Goff locked too. It is more apart of his fluff than Shadowsun's.
Both are close to Thrakka and all three fought together in the War of Armageddon. You can't even assemble Da Council of Da Waaagh! anymore according to the rules because you'd lose your culture if you do.
It would be utterly stupid if Ghaz is Goff locked too. It is more apart of his than Shadowsun's.
To be honest, I can't a remember a single story where Thrakka was actually leading Goffs. It's almost always Evil Suns, Bad Moons or Freebootas, with some Blood Axes and Deffskulls sprinkled in.
As said before ghaz would likely not be clan locked but he won’t benefit from any clan trait but Goff’s... however you also can’t grot shield ghaz with anything but goff grots either.... that’s my guess...
I know it’s a slow drip from Gw but at this point it’s just wait and see... it’s soon we will start getting the full reveals and I’m hopeful we get more then ghaz and Makari
Jidmah wrote: To be honest, I can't a remember a single story where Thrakka was actually leading Goffs. It's almost always Evil Suns, Bad Moons or Freebootas, with some Blood Axes and Deffskulls sprinkled in.
I'm with you. I guess his "Bullyboyz" are Goff?
In fact, depending on how much love Meganobz get (they might not need much), they might make a convincing case as to why we'd want a Goff detachment and what purpose the Grots serve there.
So far almost every redone character sculpt has come with some new rules of some sort. All the Primaris characters at the very least got the typical Primaris stat bumps (+1W and +1A) amongst other things. Abbadon got changes to his weapons and got a beefier statline as well (boosted up +1S and +1W and I think +1A). Even Shadowsun got new rules as well.
I could see Ghaz going up to 9 wounds to still be untargetable and having 6 attacks base instead as well. while also getting up-gunned with his Big Shootas getting AP and D2 or something. His Kustom Klaw is already pretty killy so I don't see how they'd boost that up than they already have. Hopefully whatever special rule they do give him is the one that lets him ignore Klan restrictions.
Makari must go with Ghaz, in case he go alone, he will be the worst character of the game (maybe some utility in picking an objective with 2++, but useless anyways).
Ghaz could be like Badrukk, just losing the exploding 6's.
I dunno, Ghaz looks huge from what we've seen IMO. I'm still hoping he's bumped up all they way to 16 wounds and just becomes a complete monster. Give him a Mangler squig type bracket system from AoS (meaning he's weak at the middle bracket but super strong again near death) and makes his kustom klaw D4 and 7 attacks.
He really might be close to redemptor sized I think and characters usually have a few more wounds than a model their size "should" (heck just look a 4 wound makari) so it's not that crazy I think.
Expand the prophet of gork an mork ability to also reduce incoming damage by 1 to a minimum of 1. Up the damage on the klaw to 4 and switch out his twin bigshootas to twin supa-shootas. Keep the rest of the abilities the same with the exception that he fits into any klan, not just Goffs.
That'd be my dream for Ghaz, not just a slightly upgunned version of what we already have.
Edit: Also Makari is confirmed as an HQ by GW Facebook right? I assume he's a real cheap slot filler. He's surely cheaper than a 62 point weirdboy so if you can get him standalone he might still provide some value just due to that.
PiñaColada wrote: I dunno, Ghaz looks huge from what we've seen IMO. I'm still hoping he's bumped up all they way to 16 wounds and just becomes a complete monster. Give him a Mangler squig type bracket system from AoS (meaning he's weak at the middle bracket but super strong again near death) and makes his kustom klaw D4 and 7 attacks.
He really might be close to redemptor sized I think and characters usually have a few more wounds than a model their size "should" (heck just look a 4 wound makari) so it's not that crazy I think.
Expand the prophet of gork an mork ability to also reduce incoming damage by 1 to a minimum of 1. Up the damage on the klaw to 4 and switch out his twin bigshootas to twin supa-shootas. Keep the rest of the abilities the same with the exception that he fits into any klan, not just Goffs.
That'd be my dream for Ghaz, not just a slightly upgunned version of what we already have.
If ghaz is W16, he will be useless as fk, in my opinion
It is, in all fairness, probably less useful than the magic 9W but the statline I made up above feels like a much closer approximation of what he should be IMO. I don't need my primarchs (or equivalent) to be top tier competitive but I will say that a 16W T7 model with a 2+/4++ that reduces damage by 1 and effectively barely brackets is probably quite sturdy.
Ghaz going above 9 wounds is all bad. He would be hot garbage unless hes laughably cheap for what he does because that guy is going to get focused fired SO HARD
If anything, give him the guilliman treatment of a "i didnt die yet" shenanigan to get more wounds.
Nevermind the bracketing of a named character is just stupid. Magnus brackets, and because of it i really dont pay him much mind since even if i didnt kill him (since he can be shot freely) he's usually busted down enough to not be as big of a problem.
I think the problem with going with that kind of build for Ghaz is that it really doesn't match with most ork lists outside of lists with lots of multi-wound models for target saturation purposes, ala dread waaagh! and mech lists, both of which don't synergize with Ghazzy rules-wise anyway. If we had something along the lines of a generic "prime-ork" like Ghazzy then it would be more feasible but given that it's not currently fluffy nor are we like Daemons/CSM with their plethora of DP/Lord Discordant, I think having the 9 wound Ghazzy is the best call even if he's a lot larger than the 9 wounds would suggest.
New ork player here, fallen head over heels for the army. I'm playing my first real 2k pts game in a tiny tournament on sunday. Other players: Nids, Guards/Scions, Death Guard, and Possessed bomb chaos.
1) List commentary
I would love to hear commentary, critique and suggestions on my builds, if any of you have the interest or patience. Will be reporting back on how the tournament goes.
My lists are both triple battalions, similar in many respects, with variations on flash gitz/wazbomb blastajet vs. tankbustas
Spoiler:
Batt 1: Freebootaz
Badrukk
KFF mek
3x grots
6x flashgitz
all except grots in a trukk which i will be tellyportaing
Batt 2: Deathskullz
Weirdboy w warpath and da jump
Souped up Shokk Attack
3x grotz
Wazbom blastajet
Batt 3: Evil suns
Deffkilla Wartrike
Warboss w PK and kustom shoota
3x 29 boys, PK nob
6x nobs on bike, 2 with pk, 4 with big choppa, all with kustom shoota
Megatrakk Scrapjet
Painboy
The other list is the same - with Bad moons: 10 tankbustas, a second SAG and 10 less boys replacing the the Freebootaz: flashgitz, kaptin and trukk, and the DS Wazbom jet
Feeling the tankbusta team more.
2) More curious on this one. How do you deal with possessed bombs, and how do you deal with guard (standard lots of infantry, leman russ, basilisk, bullgryn, 3x scion drops)?
Against possessed bomb, I deploy all my gretchlins as a screen to stop the first-turn-charges that would destroy all my boyz, with a good deployment and strategy, ur boyz would be ok after that, and your pirates and boyz should be able to deal with that possesseds and your bikes (you've got quite a lot) should be able to do the same as them, run a lot and charge his back line.
My commate is astra militarum and I always win, my SSAG focus punishers and my boyz just run like crazy into his troops.
My other commate is death guard, I struggle at killing his terminators but he's so slow that I use to win by points.
Against nid, I just focus genestealer with a proper gretchlin screen turn 1 to avoid genestealer charges, same as possessed bombs.
Against possessed bomb, I deploy all my gretchlins as a screen to stop the first-turn-charges that would destroy all my boyz, with a good deployment and strategy, ur boyz would be ok after that, and your pirates and boyz should be able to deal with that possesseds and your bikes (you've got quite a lot) should be able to do the same as them, run a lot and charge his back line.
My commate is astra militarum and I always win, my SSAG focus punishers and my boyz just run like crazy into his troops.
My other commate is death guard, I struggle at killing his terminators but he's so slow that I use to win by points.
Against nid, I just focus genestealer with a proper gretchlin screen turn 1 to avoid genestealer charges, same as possessed bombs.
That's what I use to do, but I don't play bikes
Thank you for the feedback and tips!
Edit: I gather the bikes in general aren't very good - which I don't understand yet, but then again I haven't really played with them. I used them in a smaller points game versus Nids, where they were great at boxing the opponent in turn 1.
I take the Speed Freeks detachment, where they have a Strat to move double distance. With ES, that's a 32 inch move + d6+1 advance With the deffkilla, I can unload all those shots and still charge. I don't know, though. We'll see!
In case you were looking for more details, characters have a rule where they can't be targetted by shooting unless they are the closest target OR have a wound characteristic of 10 or higher.
Some guns/abilities can get around this but for the most part you don't want a character to be above 9 wounds unless they are crazy durable or not a big deal if they die.
Bikes suffer in a lot of ways, they require a very specific tactic to use and even then they tend to die.
The issue is T4-5 2W models are stupid easy to punish right now. Imo the issue is 2D weapons are too common, other than Primaris marines (which are stupid cheap for those stats) i dont know of any T4-5 2W models that doesnt really suffer from this problem.
Vineheart01 wrote: Bikes suffer in a lot of ways, they require a very specific tactic to use and even then they tend to die.
The issue is T4-5 2W models are stupid easy to punish right now. Imo the issue is 2D weapons are too common, other than Primaris marines (which are stupid cheap for those stats) i dont know of any T4-5 2W models that doesnt really suffer from this problem.
Yeah, agreed, they can be very easy to remove. I run them as Nobz on bikes, which gives that 3rd wound, and with the -1 to hit in shooting strategem, they can last a bit longer.
I do use them as a kamikaze-style positioning piece more than anything tho. Lot of dakka with the kustom shootas (4 str 4, 6 str 5 shots per model), but they're mostly good as distraction carnifexes that can do some surprise damage a round. Then they get wiped. 256 pts for the 6 models with 2 PKs, 4 big choppas, 6 kustom shootas
I don't know, warbikers have done pretty well for me in every game when fielded with buggies, koptas and nauts. They don't make back their point in stuff they kill, but their speed combined with their durability against small army fire has proven to be a great tactical asset to me.
PiñaColada wrote: It is, in all fairness, probably less useful than the magic 9W but the statline I made up above feels like a much closer approximation of what he should be IMO. I don't need my primarchs (or equivalent) to be top tier competitive but I will say that a 16W T7 model with a 2+/4++ that reduces damage by 1 and effectively barely brackets is probably quite sturdy.
My experience with playing against Magnus and fielding Mortarion myself is that neither survives a turn unless you get lucky with that invulnerable save or the enemy fails at shooting. It would be the same for Thrakka, and he is slower than either of the daemon primarchs.
Jidmah wrote: ...My experience with playing against Magnus and fielding Mortarion myself is that neither survives a turn unless you get lucky with that invulnerable save or the enemy fails at shooting. It would be the same for Thrakka, and he is slower than either of the daemon primarchs.
I suppose we have our teleport strat to negate a bit of that, here's hoping he has something like that built in.
We've been playing a lot of CA2019 missions in my club, combining the eternal war and maelstrom missions and I've found that going second confers several advantages. It really helps where we have house ruled all first floor terrain to be LOS blocking.
The best thing about it is, first turn alpha strikes are effectively neutered, especially with the deployment rules. If you're the attacker you really have to deploy with consideration to the counter-punch.
It's made for more satisfying, and tactical gaming so far.
Without this becoming a tactica thread for some madeup statline for Ghaz, I just want to reiterate that I agree with the concensus of this thread, a 9W Ghaz would be better than a 16W one. To not clog up the thread too much, I'll elaborate in a spoiler below:
Spoiler:
The comparison to Morty or Magnus is somewhat fair, those dudes often die fairly quick and easy but as noted by r_squared above you would probably still be able to tellyporta a prime-ghaz in, thus reducing the risk of being alphastruck (though I guess he'd lose the infantry keyword so no da jump). Magnus is almost literally impossible to hide due to his wings and Morty isn't that much better, even a redemptor sized Ghaz would be much easier to sneak out of LoS, since it's rarely the thickness of the midsection that does a model in. Again, the model would barely bracket and with a painboy nearby would honestly be one of the more durable models in the game (for what that's worth in a super killy 8th).
The whole idea is how would you make a targetable Ghaz work, because I'd really hate for him to be stuck behind that arbitrary 9wound line simply because I don't think he should be that low. In all honestly, I remember -plenty- of people crying about how the lord discordant would be DOA when it was announced he was over 9W and those guys rock so there are venues for it to work. Doesn't mean it will, or is likely, just isn't impossible. How he's costed obviously matter a great deal..
But I guess the bigger thing is, I want Ghaz to be something a lot of people would be interested in, as a fun model to build & paint but also to plonk down a game table. I don't need him to be meta-defining like early days Guilliman, I want Ork players to be able to use him at the FLGS and his opponent be more psyched to him and play against him rather than dread the fact that the model is way too good for his points. I guess my longwinded point is that I certainly don't want him to suck but if he ends up being about as points efficient as Magnus then I'd be okay with that. I wouldn't even want him to be an auto-include for Orks, I just don't want you to end up feeling punished for using him either..
Jidmah wrote: ...My experience with playing against Magnus and fielding Mortarion myself is that neither survives a turn unless you get lucky with that invulnerable save or the enemy fails at shooting. It would be the same for Thrakka, and he is slower than either of the daemon primarchs.
I suppose we have our teleport strat to negate a bit of that, here's hoping he has something like that built in.
We've been playing a lot of CA2019 missions in my club, combining the eternal war and maelstrom missions and I've found that going second confers several advantages. It really helps where we have house ruled all first floor terrain to be LOS blocking.
The best thing about it is, first turn alpha strikes are effectively neutered, especially with the deployment rules. If you're the attacker you really have to deploy with consideration to the counter-punch.
It's made for more satisfying, and tactical gaming so far.
Yeah T1 while you shouldn't be able to hide entire army(that's just as bad as nothing hiding) but key units? There's something seriously wrong with board if you go 2nd and can't hide key units. Bit more understandable if you are going 1st and get seized but when going 2nd short of immobile unit like necron pylon there should be no excuse to have key unit(s) hidden
Well if you play on planet boling ball. They aren"t seriously bigger than knight and if board doesn't have couple knight sized terrain it's board not designed for 40k.
Don't complain about losing stuff 1st turn if you set up terrain badly. Those boards are relic of past. Most have evolved to 8th ed requirements years ago. In 8th you need big los blockers to ensure t1 shooting doesn't criple army and end game.
Losing critical unit like t1 when you go 2nd is own studidity or bad terrain set up. First you can learn, second either learn if you set it or thump head of gunline opponent who sets it.
We've discussed this and there has been a poll on it. There are also hundreds of pictures of any grand tournament. The amount and type of terrain your gaming group uses is not normal. Neither knights nor Mortarion are 100% hideable on a normal board, nor are they hideable behind a single piece of terrain that either GW or FLG sells.
I'd agree that Magnus (and Morty to a lesser extent) is pretty tough to hide even on densely populated boards (assuming the enemy doesn't have a completely static gunline) due to his massive wings. But assuming that Ghaz ends up being redemptor sized that's significantly easier and if that task seems impossible then I'd honestly argue that the board sorely lacks LoS blocking terrain..
Planes and things that ignore LoS are always good units due to the fact that they ignore so much of the defensive capabilities of your army but the drawback is often (or should be) that they're not insanely offensively capable per point.
We are still kinda in the conjecture stage of ghaz and should just wait and see right now but any 10+ wound ghaz would likely be a monster not infantry... so even if you could start the game hiding him behind a gorkanaut or 3 level ruin. He would need a massive movement upgrade to get him into melee where he excels. He would be incredibly hard to use properly considering any massive stat increase would come with a massive points increase...
For now let’s just wait and see.. his rules are already printed so they are not changing now.
actually personally i'd find him being a LoW to be annoying not helpful.
You'd have to have 3 other HQs for that, even if Makari is an HQ (which i saw the FB post mention he is) thats 2 other you need and while you can add weirdboyz now you need something else for the other detachments.
Every time i try to use a LoW i have to sac a detachment because of the HQ tax.
Keramory wrote: I'm a little worried Ghaz won't be unlocked outside of Goff when reading the banner's gretchen abilities.
I'm hoping he'll at least be a LoW so I can bring a supreme detach if I absolutely need to. Really don't want to make a Goff Detachment just for him
It really rather depends on how he buffs that Goff unit if he is locked. Some small changes can make large differences, for example a re-roll to hit in combat aura could certainly make me look at certain units like Meganobs again.
Orks don't get culture traits in that detachment, which isn't really that important for Thrakka, but I'd prefer having him in HQ and bringing him in addition to a weirdboy and some gretchin.
Girlyman doesnt really care because the Ultrasmurf tactics doesnt really help him. He doesnt have a reason to want to back off from melee since hes so strong in melee and his shooting is pretty forgetable so using that detachment for him makes sense.
Goff kulture is still a significant loss but its probably the 1 kulture that we could easily go without if we had to. Realistically its only going to spawn 1 more attack with Ghaz and unless hes hitting a knight or something about as big i doubt he'd need that extra hit anyway.
Ah I never paid attention to that, had no idea.
Please note I wasn't hoping he'd be a LoW in general, I'm primarily hoping hes just not stuck in as Goff as he is now. It doesn't make sense (at least to me) the ultimate leader of orks atm is stuck in one kulture.
Honestly surprised by how soon they began leaking rules of the Ork stuff. Will it be coming out sooner than we think perhaps?
But on the topic of the grot, if he has the standard rules for a waaaagh banner and is decently priced he'll probably fit in a couple of lists. If it has it's own special rules they've not shown yet he could be pretty good.
Yeah, Makari could work fine in a CP Battery, since they rarely care about Kultur anyway. Makari, Weirdboy, and 30 Grots for like 180-190 pts? No brainer.
Played a 1500pt freebooter army tonight with a couple of 10 man squads of flash gitz supported by kustom booster blastas and ssag against Drukhari and pretty much tabled them y turn 4.
Did notice one discrepancy though, Flash Gitz only appear to have Ld6. Battelscribe has the Kaptin having ld7, but the codex is Ld6. Was there an errata I didn't notice?
Plus, a unit of 3x KBB did great work for me, wiping out screens, smashing flying Drukhari tanks and squashing a warlord. Phenomenal amount of screen clearing shots inside 6".
That 1st place army though. How the hell would you beat that.
Probably by the 1st place player having a stroke or something. Seeing that many centurions is like staring death straight in the eye with a Green Tide list.
That 1st place army though. How the hell would you beat that.
Do we know if the centurions started on the board? Also how well do they deal with heavy armor. I'm thinking a heavy mech list would have worked wonders against that list
That 1st place army though. How the hell would you beat that.
Do we know if the centurions started on the board? Also how well do they deal with heavy armor. I'm thinking a heavy mech list would have worked wonders against that list
Eh... Not when each Centurion has 3 (4 on the charge) WS3+ S10 AP-4 D3 attacks.
That 1st place army though. How the hell would you beat that.
Do we know if the centurions started on the board? Also how well do they deal with heavy armor. I'm thinking a heavy mech list would have worked wonders against that list
Well, step 1 to beating it is go first. If you go first it's possible.
Second step is be in one of the deeper deployments so you can keep your SAG meks outside of 39 inch eliminator range.
Step 3 is hurl grots or boys forward and take up so much space that his turn 2 reinforcements are coming down in his very back corner.
Step 4, shoot the centurions with SAG mek and smasha guns when they come down and kill screens and nothing else
See, it's super easy, idk what the problem is. lmao
That 1st place army though. How the hell would you beat that.
Do we know if the centurions started on the board? Also how well do they deal with heavy armor. I'm thinking a heavy mech list would have worked wonders against that list
Well, step 1 to beating it is go first. If you go first it's possible.
Second step is be in one of the deeper deployments so you can keep your SAG meks outside of 39 inch eliminator range.
Step 3 is hurl grots or boys forward and take up so much space that his turn 2 reinforcements are coming down in his very back corner.
Step 4, shoot the centurions with SAG mek and smasha guns when they come down and kill screens and nothing else
See, it's super easy, idk what the problem is. lmao
Got a tournament tomorrow and I 'll be taking with me an ES detachment with Zadnarsk and a unit of Stormboyz, amongst other things. I was wondering if I got this right:
Full Throttle: When this unit Advances, you can add 6" to its Move characteristic instead of rolling a dice, but if you do, roll a D6 for each model in this unit at the end of the phase; for each roll of 1, the unit suffers 1 mortal wound.
Xenos FAQ:
Q: What happens when a unit of Stormboyz declares a charge and it is within range of an Ork Warboss’ Waaagh! ability at the start of the Charge phase (assuming the Stormboyz Advanced that turn) – do I still need to roll D6 to see if my Stormboyz unit suffers mortal wounds as described in their Full Throttle ability?
A:
No. In this circumstance, you can just use the Ork Warboss’ ability to Charge (even though the unit Advanced) and you do not need to use the Full Throttle ability to do so (and so you avoid the risks involved).
So I can auto-advance 6"(7" with ES) and, if I´m still in Zad range, I can avoid rolling for MW, right?
Emicrania wrote: Got a tournament tomorrow and I 'll be taking with me an ES detachment with Zadnarsk and a unit of Stormboyz, amongst other things. I was wondering if I got this right:
Full Throttle: When this unit Advances, you can add 6" to its Move characteristic instead of rolling a dice, but if you do, roll a D6 for each model in this unit at the end of the phase; for each roll of 1, the unit suffers 1 mortal wound.
Xenos FAQ:
Q: What happens when a unit of Stormboyz declares a charge and it is within range of an Ork Warboss’ Waaagh! ability at the start of the Charge phase (assuming the Stormboyz Advanced that turn) – do I still need to roll D6 to see if my Stormboyz unit suffers mortal wounds as described in their Full Throttle ability?
A:
No. In this circumstance, you can just use the Ork Warboss’ ability to Charge (even though the unit Advanced) and you do not need to use the Full Throttle ability to do so (and so you avoid the risks involved).
So I can auto-advance 6"(7" with ES) and, if I´m still in Zad range, I can avoid rolling for MW, right?
No. Looks like full throttle changed between index xenos and the main codex.
If you advance and force max distance, you gotta roll the mortal wounds.
Bad Moons Re-roll hit rolls of 1 for attacks made by models with this kultur in the Shooting phase.
Detachment CP [5CP]
Categories: No Force Org Slot
Specialist Detachment [-1CP]
Selections: Dread Waaagh! [-1CP]
Categories: No Force Org Slot
Abilities: Dread Waaagh!
Abilities
Description
Dread Waaagh! Use this Stratagem when choosing your army. Pick an ORK Detachment from your army to be a Dread Waaagh! Specialist Detachment. BIG MEKS, GORKANAUTS, MORKANAUTS, DEFF DREADS and KILLA KANS in that Detachment gain the DREAD WAAAGH! keyword.
Orks seems kinda overpowered, our artillery shooting lot of dakka with a +1 and dakkadakka is very strong, melee with 6W and x3 attacks is very powerful, and Stompa is super strong in shoot order or assault order.
That 1st place army though. How the hell would you beat that.
It is 200+ model army. Not that many people want to play that many models if the aim is to actually enjoy the GT. The 60 grots and 90 boys with TB and lootas is bad enough, and it’s 20-30 models less than that one.
But some like fielding that many, and GG to him anyway because the list must require quite a lot of skill to play.
It's pretty likely many started the game off the board though.
What I find interesting is that he prioritized giving everyone a killsaw over having another battalion - he was only 27 points short of getting another 5 CP.
Jidmah wrote: It's pretty likely many started the game off the board though.
What I find interesting is that he prioritized giving everyone a killsaw over having another battalion - he was only 27 points short of getting another 5 CP.
Yeah, I checked it last time already and it makes sence. You pay just 2p per model more and get -4 AP (instead of -3) and flat 2 Dmg => great for killing 2W infantry. No waste of dmg and they lost any save.
The fact is, that the randomnes of PKdmg sucks me quiete a bit.
The fact also is, that he has not a lot of high AP weapons in the army so it makes sence to make it as brutal as possible. Killsaws instead of smasha gunz.
Jidmah wrote: It's pretty likely many started the game off the board though.
What I find interesting is that he prioritized giving everyone a killsaw over having another battalion - he was only 27 points short of getting another 5 CP.
Must have been restricted to the MA Big Mek. Swap to the standard and he has the points for 3 bats with no other changes.
Jidmah wrote: He also is a bit more durable vs eliminators and since he is ES, speed might not be as much of an issue.
True. There’s no reason to not drop like 3 Stormboyz for 5 CP, though.
I think the MA Big Mek is probably better than the general consensus here as well. As someone who sees a ton of snipers, it’s tempting to pay for a chunk bulkier Mek if I need to keep him around.
I’m not sure the movement speed matters that much. The only thing keeping the KFF aura in proper range how well the Mek advances. Even with ES all around, your boys roll a 6 and it rolls a 1, kind of boned on full speed ahead.
The MA Mek is already pretty much the last target a Sniper will go after (they'll be more concerned about your SSAG, SAGs, Weirdboyz, and Warbosses), so the extra Sniper protection ain't that important.
Boyz I did it. 4th in a GT, 4-1 with a loss Vs Chaos because 3 SAG and 15 Tankabusta shooting twice plus Zahdnarsk in CC whiffed Vs 1 knight.
Last match Vs IH with chaplain dredd, 6 Shooting centurions, feirros, apothecary, 30 intercessor and 2 TFC.
I couldn't be happier. I missed 2 place for 15 BP.
If Val contact me I'll be screaming nonsense for 25 minutes.
Emicrania wrote: Boyz I did it. 4th in a GT, 4-1 with a loss Vs Chaos because 3 SAG and 15 Tankabusta shooting twice plus Zahdnarsk in CC whiffed Vs 1 knight.
Last match Vs IH with chaplain dredd, 6 Shooting centurions, feirros, apothecary, 30 intercessor and 2 TFC.
I couldn't be happier. I missed 2 place for 15 BP.
If Val contact me I'll be screaming nonsense for 25 minutes.
Emicrania wrote: Boyz I did it. 4th in a GT, 4-1 with a loss Vs Chaos because 3 SAG and 15 Tankabusta shooting twice plus Zahdnarsk in CC whiffed Vs 1 knight. Last match Vs IH with chaplain dredd, 6 Shooting centurions, feirros, apothecary, 30 intercessor and 2 TFC. I couldn't be happier. I missed 2 place for 15 BP.
If Val contact me I'll be screaming nonsense for 25 minutes.
Great job! That makes you one of two ork players who beat marine meta
Emicrania wrote: Boyz I did it. 4th in a GT, 4-1 with a loss Vs Chaos because 3 SAG and 15 Tankabusta shooting twice plus Zahdnarsk in CC whiffed Vs 1 knight.
Last match Vs IH with chaplain dredd, 6 Shooting centurions, feirros, apothecary, 30 intercessor and 2 TFC.
I couldn't be happier. I missed 2 place for 15 BP.
If Val contact me I'll be screaming nonsense for 25 minutes.
Nice! New ITC stuff is better for the boys?
We played old ITC so I can´t say for sure, but IMHO should DEFINITELY help us out. Ground control and recon can give you a hint.
Grimskul wrote:Congrats Emi! Glad to see you held your ground and took a good spot for the boyz!
Cheers, thanks!
Jidmah wrote:
Emicrania wrote: Boyz I did it. 4th in a GT, 4-1 with a loss Vs Chaos because 3 SAG and 15 Tankabusta shooting twice plus Zahdnarsk in CC whiffed Vs 1 knight.
Last match Vs IH with chaplain dredd, 6 Shooting centurions, feirros, apothecary, 30 intercessor and 2 TFC.
I couldn't be happier. I missed 2 place for 15 BP.
If Val contact me I'll be screaming nonsense for 25 minutes.
Great job! That makes you one of two ork players who beat marine meta
Thanks Jid!
To be fair my opponent was very relaxed and laid back, he´s a GSC player that got tired of losing, so he switched to IH for the tournament. Poor guy got shell-shocked when I blew 4 Centurions T1 with the shock attack guns. T5 4W 1+ 5++ 5+++ Cannot stop 3 Sag, especially when the little fether with the relic goes supernova. Once i maxed gangbusters T2 and took care of 2 OG assassins scout, he played more conservatively and that allowed me to take completely over the board.
We played a mixture of maelstrom and ITC, 18 cards deck a la Scheme of war (with the twist of capping at VP for the cards and avery d3 is worth 2 VP, hold more, kill more, 6 objectives on the board and 3 secondaries. So basically by picking board control secondaries and having a board control deck, you can effectively max out at 38 points out of 42 without having to kill a single enemy model. Having 126 obsec troops models, it should not be a problem. Next time I think I will ditch Zadnarsk to a walking warboss, way more flexibility by charging thru ruins and upper floor, plus DA jump; and probably I would find the points for Mad Dok, when you have that many models is worth it, I believe. Also I dunno if I ever can play again that many models in a GT... Is like playing 3 games in one.
He krumps well in combat, he has objective secured, and the combo of 5++, 6+++ gives boys a 45% chance of making either of those saves.
It also gives your models some mortal wound protection. Which is nice. Make it as annoying as possible to remove the boys.
Honestly with stacked buffs ( albeit not free with the painboy), 7 PPM boys don’t look too bad.
One of the reasons I’ve loved DS boys is it’s easy to keep them close to Mad Dok, and a 6++, 6+++ is a 30% survival rate once you inevitably have to spread out. DS also lets me take rockets on the squad without feeling bad about it.
I mean the schedule has been pretty much standard at this point right? They dump all the info for the next release in the last week of one month and then you can preorder it around week two of the next? So like, March 14th or so.
I mean that spannerz comic has been going for a long time and 29 days would be in the middle of the week so I doubt it's related. I'd be shocked if Ghaz isn't previewed sometime this week (sunday at the very latest) and goes up for preorder the 7th. This all resembles the Abaddon deal but the pace has already been set by the other PAs, so I'd expect we get a WHC twitch/facebook video with "Ghaz throughout the years" in a couple of days.
I just think adepticon is way too late for his full reveal, especially considering he'd only be released a full 14 days after that most likely. GW is ramping up the articles about Orks and SW because he's dropping soon I'd wager. Getting distance between this reveal and whatever's at adepticon makes sense.
Ghaz going preorder on the 7th would be amazing! The GW that's closest to me is right up the street from a gaming convention that I will be at on the 7th, I will for sure run straight over there and straight back if it goes up then!
was anybody surprised?
Pretty sure every PA book the imp half got way more than the xenos half. Nids almost didnt even get mentioned in their book by comparison to the BA
The moment the space wolves were involved in our campaign I knew that would be in the spotlight. Given there is supposed to be some dramatic clash between Ghazzy and Ragnar, the best we can hope is that Ghazzy completely wipes the floor with him and they are forced to give him the Primaris treatment to keep him alive. Cause god forbid GW let a loyalist SM character die.
Making existing characters primaris makes 0 sense to me. Arent they supposed to be a better gene-code? how the hell do you upgrade your genetics without being "born again" lol.
Vineheart01 wrote: Making existing characters primaris makes 0 sense to me. Arent they supposed to be a better gene-code? how the hell do you upgrade your genetics without being "born again" lol.
But theyre doing it anyway.
Isn't that how space marines are made in the first place? By altering the genes of a living organism? In real life you can do it in principle with a virus or gene therapy, but in 40k they just implant new organs in you and call it a day I suppose.
Ghazghkull vs Ragnar should hopefully be suitably epic, especially if Ragnar gets a new model, I thought they knocked it out of the park with Primaris Mephiston so I'd love to see a Space Wolf get the same treatment.
Gaz will be cool, I'm not sure I fancy having him as I'm a bit more shooty and poor atm haha. But then maybe he could have different personality profiles that'd be interesting.
The Space-Wolf conflict is still cool, I find it hard to begrudge them a leader that doesn't look comparatively dated, especially given our upgrade.
If GW wanted an easy profit I'd really like to see the squigs (perhaps feral-orks too) in 40k, as has been the case with Demons, seems like a no-brainer.
Then release Old Zogwort, even if only as a FW model, that'd make a few people happy.
Ideally I think Snakebites should be the faction that has the best Squiggoths and squigs, docs that can heal monsters, and most inspiring Weird-Boys, as is meh.
(A finecast Grot Revolutionary leader and Grot Revolution sub-faction would make a lot of people happy too.)
I'm blathering on a speculating though, I'm quite happy where Freebooters are at now, so I'm going to be a little sad when GW decides they've sold enough Kannons and Flashgitz.
Though the bloody broadside is loony, I'd like to see that adjusted.
Vineheart01 wrote: was anybody surprised?
Pretty sure every PA book the imp half got way more than the xenos half. Nids almost didnt even get mentioned in their book by comparison to the BA
To be fair cadia got blown the fek up and creed is a statue now. The main guard regiment got hosed.
Ghaz is getting a new model and isn’t going anywhere I expect pyrrhic victory at best for space wolves but likely a symbolic victory for orks. This part of the story is just building up.
I’m expectinn that ork vs space wolf box set rumour is probably legit now that Ragnar new mini is all but confirmed. I don’t expect much for space wolves except Ragnar and some type of primarus upgrade kit and orks get ghaz and a big Mek w kff.
Vineheart01 wrote: was anybody surprised?
Pretty sure every PA book the imp half got way more than the xenos half. Nids almost didnt even get mentioned in their book by comparison to the BA
To be fair cadia got blown the fek up and creed is a statue now. The main guard regiment got hosed.
Ghaz is getting a new model and isn’t going anywhere I expect pyrrhic victory at best for space wolves but likely a symbolic victory for orks. This part of the story is just building up.
I’m expectinn that ork vs space wolf box set rumour is probably legit now that Ragnar new mini is all but confirmed. I don’t expect much for space wolves except Ragnar and some type of primarus upgrade kit and orks get ghaz and a big Mek w kff.
It would shock me if they killed Ghazzy off.
Otherwise the Orks don't have much of a story. He's a uniter, which is why Orks are quite a bit more dangerous. They could take it in new directions, but that would literally be just "another new big boss shows up" in all likelihood.
It would be MORE interesting if a badass Ork killed Ghazzy in an epic fight, because he could take his place.
maybe its just the way its shot but Ghazz's Base Looks Huge. Thats gotta be a 80MM base don't you think?
Good luck with that.
