So I finally got to play my first game of Warhammer last weekend in a beginners escalation league. The point options were 750-1000. I was the only one that brought 750 unfortunately, and was pounded into last place. I didn't take it too bad however because I wanted it to be an easy list to learn the basic skills with. Next month the points goes to 1250 and I intend to take full advantage of that with more of my toys available.
I have a question though.
I want to use a detachment of Deathskulls, and a detachment of Freebooters. How do I make that happen in Battlescribe, and what happens to each army?
Do the units each keep all the bonus' for there clans throughout the game?
You have to add 2 detachments in battlescribe, the same way you selected the initial one just hit the + button at the bottom to add another.
One detachment can be Deathskullz, the other Freeboota. Any unit in those detachments will be the corresponding klan (except flashgitz and badrukk of course)
You do not lose kulture benefits unless you are using multiple kultures in the SAME detachment (excluding flashgitz/badrukk). If they are different detachments you are fine.
Battleforged is literally you are using proper detachments rather than just taking whatever you want (if youre using battlescribe and dont use the "Unbound Army" option, youre battleforged)
Mixed kultures do not cost CP. Just keep them in their own detachment so you dont kill your kulture bonus.
I've been hosting and partaking in a slow grow 40k campaign with around 15ish people in it and I decided to get my Orkz out again! I havent played since May last year (took a break from 8th as I couldnt really stand it anymore) and with Ghaz on the way I've been reinvigorated to crack on with the boyz!
Im really hoping Saga of the Beast does us some justice. There are a couple units I hope really get some love, burnaboyz, warbikerz, trukkboyz, nobz and the majority of the Klans.
Ive always been an Evil Sunz type of Orkz but since coming back I've been trying out Deathskulls and my lord, they feel a lot better to play than Evil Sunz! I dont run Da Soup-up Shokka like most but hes nearly painted and I'll be trying him out soon.
My main wishes are just for some more cost iffiecent stratgems that affects more units instead of being too specialised by keywords.
Vineheart01 wrote: was anybody surprised?
Pretty sure every PA book the imp half got way more than the xenos half. Nids almost didnt even get mentioned in their book by comparison to the BA
To be fair cadia got blown the fek up and creed is a statue now. The main guard regiment got hosed.
Ghaz is getting a new model and isn’t going anywhere I expect pyrrhic victory at best for space wolves but likely a symbolic victory for orks. This part of the story is just building up.
I’m expectinn that ork vs space wolf box set rumour is probably legit now that Ragnar new mini is all but confirmed. I don’t expect much for space wolves except Ragnar and some type of primarus upgrade kit and orks get ghaz and a big Mek w kff.
Also most of SM pages is actually reprint of datasheets they could already use before PA book. No more new stuff than if GW reprinted whole bunch of ork datasheets in the PA6 book
Ive always been an Evil Sunz type of Orkz but since coming back I've been trying out Deathskulls and my lord, they feel a lot better to play than Evil Sunz! I dont run Da Soup-up Shokka like most but hes nearly painted and I'll be trying him out soon.
Deathskulls is far and above the best all around clan out there.
A lot of people mix in a bit of Evil Suns or Bad Moons, but it's definitely not necessary to build a good list.
Deathskullz offer quite a lot to every ork unit is why theyre so good. Other kultures....lot of units either dont benefit at all or dont benefit enough to mention
Not optimized in the slightest, but it looks like a ton of fun. Hide the under the double KFF at the beginning (after tucking the Dread into a Tellyporta), then use the speedy boiz to harass things.
Otherwise the Orks don't have much of a story. He's a uniter, which is why Orks are quite a bit more dangerous. They could take it in new directions, but that would literally be just "another new big boss shows up" in all likelihood.
It would be MORE interesting if a badass Ork killed Ghazzy in an epic fight, because he could take his place.
Eh seeing PA covers events between fall of cadia and start of 8th ed they aren't killing. Would be pretty crazy even for gw writing to kill off ghaz and not mention in say 8th ed rulebook. "oh yeah he's dead. we just didn't mention it"
everyone is probably refreshing the news page over and over to wait for ghaz's stats reveal.
I mean...why would anyone do that? totally not me nope nuh-uh not at all. *cough*
As a Guardsmen scrolling past, I have to compliment you Xenos on the name of your thread. It always brings a smile to my face. Plus Ork players are usually hilarious to play against.
Not really on topic, just thought I would drop by. Do carry on...
tneva82 wrote: Well for one Your army is hardly casual. And if there's not much terrain it's going to be largely you go first, you auto win.
Furthermore game is designed around 2k level and scales up and down very badly. Already shaky balance is totally off the tracks in smaller or bigger games.
Play with more terrain. Here you can't alpha strike that freely even in 2k game and in 500 pts there's lot less you need to be able to hide. If he could not hide even part of his army...well gosh that's why playing on planet bowling ball sucks.
It had more to do with how lucky my roles were. But yeah, 2 shooty lists at 500pts means things are going to die quickly.
Either way, I played game 2 this weekend at 1k points. To upgrade my list I added a Morkanaut and a 3rd scrapjet to the list. Went against a Chaos themed army that brought a Lord of Skulls super heavy a character and a Lord Discordant as well as half his list in Terminators in reserve. turn 1 he reduced my Morkanaut but it was alive and that was all he managed, on my turn I bum rushed him with Morky, my 3 Scrapjets and then shot the piss out of him with my Mek gunz and Big Mek. I managed to kill everything he had on the table in the shooting phase and then in the close combat phase with my Scrapjets rolling 9 Mortal wounds with their charge against his warlord
My army is a themed Big Mek army with nothing but vehicles, when we go up to 1,500pts next week I think I am going to add in some Deff Koptas.
Vineheart01 wrote: everyone is probably refreshing the news page over and over to wait for ghaz's stats reveal.
I mean...why would anyone do that? totally not me nope nuh-uh not at all. *cough*
Ya, I've been relying on dakka and facebook to keep me updated since I can't access Warhammer community from my work computer. Sadly, nothing for today.
I’m super surprised the didn’t start the book teasers this week considering the slow news from weak reboxed preorders for this sat. Im hoping rise of beast drops first weekend in March but it feels more and more like it’s after the sisters finish their releases first.
So I'm jumping in feet first like my name was Killboy. Not ITC prep, but rather assembling a WAAAAGH for a local campaign coming in a couple months. I'm leaning towards Goffs backed by Kans and Dreads, but I haven't committed to a Klan yet partially because I want to see what mess the PA book gives us.
So far my little pile of stuff is:
SAG Big Mek
Mek (not using, but I have him)
10 Slugga Boyz (1 Nob with Big Choppa)
5 Stormboyz (1 Nob with Big Choppa)
6 Rokkit/Saw Kans
2 Claw/Double Skorcha Deff Dreads
Basically I snagged the Apoc box and a box of Boys and Stormboys, but I'm not 100% sure on what to pick up (beyond more Boyz) to get it to 2k.
The ‘nought would fit the theme, and you might consider the Dreadd Mob detachment - sounds like it fits your requirement, and gives buffs to your SAG and walkers. A KFF added to the other Mek would be useful, and easy enough to convert.
As to further expansions, you might want to consider more vehicles, which would mean your opponent is getting less profit from any anti-infantry choices they have.
Moriarty wrote: The ‘nought would fit the theme, and you might consider the Dreadd Mob detachment - sounds like it fits your requirement, and gives buffs to your SAG and walkers. A KFF added to the other Mek would be useful, and easy enough to convert.
As to further expansions, you might want to consider more vehicles, which would mean your opponent is getting less profit from any anti-infantry choices they have.
Good luck!
I was thinking of splitting between 1k of mechanized threats and then running up 1k worth of green tide goodness, but with how easy massed bolter fire is, pending any major changes to our rules, taking more vehicles is likely a good start.
Vineheart01 wrote: everyone is probably refreshing the news page over and over to wait for ghaz's stats reveal.
I mean...why would anyone do that? totally not me nope nuh-uh not at all. *cough*
Vineheart01 wrote: everyone is probably refreshing the news page over and over to wait for ghaz's stats reveal. I mean...why would anyone do that? totally not me nope nuh-uh not at all. *cough*
Thats unfair, its not just Ghaz's stats Im after.
Yeah, his point costs and keywords are very important as well
btw: Back from a three day ban for ork-speaking in the PA thread. Be very careful to not post off-topic in the N&R forum - if in doubt, just discuss any news here.
btw: Back from a three day ban for ork-speaking in the PA thread. Be very careful to not post off-topic in the N&R forum - if in doubt, just discuss any news here.
btw: Back from a three day ban for ork-speaking in the PA thread. Be very careful to not post off-topic in the N&R forum - if in doubt, just discuss any news here.
Do you guys think the Marine nerfs will improve our odds of victory? Dread castles seem to be off the table now, but Marines are still real good at mowing down Orkz in bulk, so I dunno.
I still think thunderfire cannons being way too cheap, alongside with bolter aggressors and centurions also grossly undercosted it's still going to be a real tough matchup for most ork lists but it's certainly swinging into a more doable territory..
flandarz wrote: Do you guys think the Marine nerfs will improve our odds of victory? Dread castles seem to be off the table now, but Marines are still real good at mowing down Orkz in bulk, so I dunno.
Yeah, some pretty massive changes to the SMFAQ today. T1 is always dev doctrine, T2 is always tactical, T3 is either tactical or assault and T4 onwards is always assault.
-Removed the strat to change doctrines.
-Duty eternal strat is -1damage and not half damage.
-No more RG super up close centurions.
-IH "shield drone" strat only works on infantry now, and not chaplain dreads as well.
Ok, have read them. In general, I think this is good for orks, as we will be facing a lot less firepower. IH castles took a huge hit, as did raven guard but I'd be warry of white scars centurions though.
Outside of that, it really depends on whether the imperial side shifts back to soup. Using CA missions, I never had trouble fighting the more balanced marine factions like Ultramarines and Dark Angels, so this might be just enough to bring orks back into the game.
Kebabcito wrote: The RG centurion nerf is so Good for us, I had no chance against that list last time I faced it.
They can still deppstrike turn 2 and use their 11" flamers as RG successor chapter with the long range marksmen trait and still get to move at the start of the first battle round with the Infiltrators strategem and get a 31" / 28" (Successor / RG) flamer thread range and 25" / 22" if they want to shoot their hurricane bolters as well. So keep that in mind while deploying.
Still, makes RG a lot easier to handle.
Really happy those changes happened before my next tournament.
Btw, any predictions when the PA book will drop?
Any rules that are realeased until 14. march are legal in that tournament but i guess that the release will be after that deadline. :(
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addnid wrote: Imp fists will not be able to gain extra dmg against vehicules after turn 1, so my 6 deff dredds will not fear them just so much anymore!
Yeah, this makes tellyporting Dreads and maybe even buggies quite tempting if you phase lots of stalker bolters and bad terrain. But stalker bolters will still be a pain for our light vehicles. I hope marine players will field more bolt rifles instead, those are better to handle for those poor vehicles.
Grotrebel wrote: Btw, any predictions when the PA book will drop?
Any rules that are realeased until 14. march are legal in that tournament but i guess that the release will be after that deadline. :(
Most likely the preorder announcement will be this sunday, which then means one or two weeks until it actually drops. So it's pretty likely to arrive on the 14th.
The fact that they cant sit in Devastator anymore is awesome on its own.
Ive lost count how many marine players (except white scars) just sit in devastator for all eternity.
The centurion thing is good because you can always spread out your deepstrike screens to make it a lot harder to hit the target they want to, even if they get to flame.
Spread out enough grots and let them nuke some 3 point gits.
I think Orks may have a resurgence. If SM drop back to their previous levels (10-15 instead of 25-30%), I bet you a lot more Ork armies can be viable.
ITC rules have also changed which should help out the green boys a bit, minus still probably restricting us to a green tide. But we also have a book coming which may shake up the army. Look at what it did for GK, for instance.
I mean, we're not going to get GK levels of buffs because that'd mean Orks become broken. But my personal hope is that as an overarching buff we get something like Admechs canticles of the omnissiah, assuming the army is battleforged and mono-kultur. However if Ghaz is in your army you can mix and match clans and still get the buff.
Call it "Powers of da waaagh" or whatever but basically make them buffs that range from highly situational (but then good in that situation) to pretty decent. Stuff like you get +an additional 1 to your armour save when in cover. Army wide 6+FnP versus MWs etc..
Have them work the same way as Admech, where you can choose which one you want but you can only pick a specific one a single time. Or you can roll which can grant you a power you've already picked if lucky.
Just some fun&fluffy rules that tries to bridge the gap between mixed- and mono-clans.
tulun wrote: The centurion thing is good because you can always spread out your deepstrike screens to make it a lot harder to hit the target they want to, even if they get to flame.
Spread out enough grots and let them nuke some 3 point gits.
I think Orks may have a resurgence. If SM drop back to their previous levels (10-15 instead of 25-30%), I bet you a lot more Ork armies can be viable.
ITC rules have also changed which should help out the green boys a bit, minus still probably restricting us to a green tide. But we also have a book coming which may shake up the army. Look at what it did for GK, for instance.
Centurion thing isn't neccessarily as big though. Are centurions that much better than aggressors? Rh will switch to those instead
tulun wrote: The centurion thing is good because you can always spread out your deepstrike screens to make it a lot harder to hit the target they want to, even if they get to flame.
Spread out enough grots and let them nuke some 3 point gits.
I think Orks may have a resurgence. If SM drop back to their previous levels (10-15 instead of 25-30%), I bet you a lot more Ork armies can be viable.
ITC rules have also changed which should help out the green boys a bit, minus still probably restricting us to a green tide. But we also have a book coming which may shake up the army. Look at what it did for GK, for instance.
Centurion thing isn't neccessarily as big though. Are centurions that much better than aggressors? Rh will switch to those instead
Unquestionably still good. But no, Aggressors are way easier for us to deal with.
3+ save AND 3 wounds vs 2+ and 4 wounds. Orks have some efficient options for dealing with power armour and 3 wounds. Rokkits can 1 shot them. Da Killa Klaw kills them in 1 attack instead of 2.
In melee too, they have -1 to hit and d3 wounds instead of NO negative hit modifier and flat 3.
Fair enough. No rg here so very little experience with centurions. Just keep in mind still 100 or so bolter shots or lots of flamers and bolters in your doorstep t1. Their alpha strike didn"' take a hit.
Good to know bit easier to take out after alpha strike done though.
If we don't get mono-Kultur buffs (and adjustments to our worst Kulturz), I'm gonna figure out who the CEO of GW is, buy a plane ticket to England, and kick him in the nuts.
Unless GW are responding to leaks with a last minute article they almost never post anything after 6PM UK time (give or take 15 min, it's not an exact cutoff)
Grotrebel wrote: Btw, any predictions when the PA book will drop?
Any rules that are realeased until 14. march are legal in that tournament but i guess that the release will be after that deadline. :(
Most likely the preorder announcement will be this sunday, which then means one or two weeks until it actually drops. So it's pretty likely to arrive on the 14th.
That would be neat.
Time for posting army lists is until 21., so i might even get some test games before.
Maybe there will be some nasty tricks to catch some players offguard as well.
Now i just need to finish the 12 movement trays i bought for my grot.
flandarz wrote: If we don't get mono-Kultur buffs (and adjustments to our worst Kulturz), I'm gonna figure out who the CEO of GW is, buy a plane ticket to England, and kick him in the nuts.
You’re over hoping for PA book this isn’t a new codex.
I think ghaz will be good but expensive and closer to primarus points cost which makes him limited use but fun.
The marine changes and new strats and buffs will help us win more but marines are still very strong and likely an uphill win overall.
That first turn devastator doctrine alpha strike is crucial sometimes the game is literally over on turn 1 and turn 2-3 are just cleanup.
I’m hoping for the mega kff 3++ relic so my army survives turn 1 if I don’t get to go first. After that it’s usually eating overwatch and getting into assault and trying to out assault marines in thier assault doctrine phase. A bit of SAG and mekgun action to take out the big targets too.
I believe the Factions who've been in PA have all gotten some kind of Mono deal. But I might be wrong. I'd certainly say that's more likely than a 3++ KFF. Bit more realistic if it's a 4++.
Ghaz is already pretty huge and expensive. Dude is around 250 pts. Even if you could take him in any Kultur, that sort of investment already makes it hard to fit him into a list.
flandarz wrote: I believe the Factions who've been in PA have all gotten some kind of Mono deal. But I might be wrong. I'd certainly say that's more likely than a 3++ KFF. Bit more realistic if it's a 4++.
Ghaz is already pretty huge and expensive. Dude is around 250 pts. Even if you could take him in any Kultur, that sort of investment already makes it hard to fit him into a list.
flandarz wrote: I believe the Factions who've been in PA have all gotten some kind of Mono deal. But I might be wrong. I'd certainly say that's more likely than a 3++ KFF. Bit more realistic if it's a 4++.
Ghaz is already pretty huge and expensive. Dude is around 250 pts. Even if you could take him in any Kultur, that sort of investment already makes it hard to fit him into a list.
Marines got.
PRetty sure chaos didn't. Tyranids didn't. IG didn't. Tau didn't. Only ones who atm have rules discouraging soups are marines and sisters.
Mega Force Field and some high RoA, but User strength relic weapon are really all i can expect for ork relics.
The rest....no idea. Oh i can wishlist all day but GW has proven they dont think too deep for these things.
Worth noting that unless they either give us another strat or word the relic right the 4++ KFF wouldnt be able to use the 18" stratagem, as its technically an MFF (following old codex terminology).
Which would suck but understandable so we dont give 90% our army a 4++ turn1 lol
flandarz wrote: I believe the Factions who've been in PA have all gotten some kind of Mono deal. But I might be wrong. I'd certainly say that's more likely than a 3++ KFF. Bit more realistic if it's a 4++.
Ghaz is already pretty huge and expensive. Dude is around 250 pts. Even if you could take him in any Kultur, that sort of investment already makes it hard to fit him into a list.
Marines got.
PRetty sure chaos didn't. Tyranids didn't. IG didn't. Tau didn't. Only ones who atm have rules discouraging soups are marines and sisters.
KFF go 4++ for 2 CP for 1 turn, it would be balanced.
If Ghazkghull is like Abaddon for BL or Guilliman for UM, he will have no spot in our list, I don't think there is a single reason for wasting 200-300 points in a very slow melee model with no +1 to charge/advance/move,opponent Will only have to stay out of his range and gg
What if Ghaz gets all the clans' different kultur benefits? That'd be pretty darn cool IMO, obviously he'd need other things as well but that alone would massively improve upon his statline
The reason why Gulliman has been disappearing is because UM are now running Calgar, who is a lot like Thrakka and Abbaddon.
Even so, depending on his rules, we still got the tellyporta rule and 'ere we go. There are worse ways to spend 235 points than on a 2+/4++ deep striker with a +1 attack aura that will probably murder anything he touches. If he weren't goff-locked, he would see a lot more play in my lists. Then again, I keep bringing Da Red Gobbo along despite him being utterly worthless.
I just de-christmasified da red gobbo and placed him on an larger based on top of some rubble and use him as a warlord. I love the model so this way I get to use him a lot.
PiñaColada wrote: I just de-christmasified da red gobbo and placed him on an larger based on top of some rubble and use him as a warlord. I love the model so this way I get to use him a lot.
I didn't. It sometimes leads to hilarious scenes, which are worth 30 points all by itself. From last game:
I feel like if anything they would announce him on a saturday w/ preorders for pickup in 2 weeks. Hopefully this saturday but who knows. Id imagine they want to get the PA out before Adepticon and Ghaz probably coming out before or the same time as the PA
Announcements for next preorders come sunday around 18gmt.
My guess is pa6 this week for next week preorder, then something for aos and then 2 weeks for rest of sisters(i presume they don't dump all 8 kits to 1 week). That covers march releases
I've heard rumblings there's a video dropping this weekend on WHC so it's probably something related to PA6/Ghaz. Sunday is usually when they preview what goes on preorder the next saturday so I'd assume then. But I guess "weekend" might even mean tonight
No most def been sunday. You can trust me on this. Been smashing f5 around 18gmt sunday past weeks hoping news on rest of sisters(minus last week after gw told sisters come in march making last sunday impossible for sister news unless gw changes release pattern ).
Saturday is when preorders comes live. Sunday is when next week's preorders come.
So I'm still fairly new and don't own the ork codex, I do own the 8th edition rulebook but I've mainly learned how to build because of Battlescribe. I just realized that there are units with multiple copies of the same weapon, (warbikes have 2 dakkaguns?!?) and that means that they shoot however many weapons they have....I feel like my head just exploded. This is both an amazing discovery, and a little frustrating that I missed this in my new army escalation games I've play so far.
I kept trying to figure how how everyone else was rolling soooo many dice and I was rolling a fraction. Which it turns out, I literally was. I wish battlescribe actually listed in the stat lines how many they are equipped with.
Haasbioroid wrote: So I'm still fairly new and don't own the ork codex, I do own the 8th edition rulebook but I've mainly learned how to build because of Battlescribe. I just realized that there are units with multiple copies of the same weapon, (warbikes have 2 dakkaguns?!?) and that means that they shoot however many weapons they have....I feel like my head just exploded. This is both an amazing discovery, and a little frustrating that I missed this in my new army escalation games I've play so far.
I kept trying to figure how how everyone else was rolling soooo many dice and I was rolling a fraction. Which it turns out, I literally was. I wish battlescribe actually listed in the stat lines how many they are equipped with.
I mean, while Battlescribe is a useful resource (ESPECIALLY for points! Your Codex is crap for that) it's NOT a rules replacer.
that and the way the codex and CA organizes points is infuriating.
You are flipping pages constantly to get the points. They really want you to use powerlevels, yet they never update them to reflect various balance chances (admech the worst offender of this, a 2k admech list is around 130pl but is 98pl for orks lol)
Vineheart01 wrote: that and the way the codex and CA organizes points is infuriating.
You are flipping pages constantly to get the points. They really want you to use powerlevels, yet they never update them to reflect various balance chances (admech the worst offender of this, a 2k admech list is around 130pl but is 98pl for orks lol)
Wow!
But ya, I played against a guy in my escalation game and he SM and Astra Militarum codeces and had them all posted up and was just flipping back and forth for each unit. I was happy to have my print out from battlescribe.
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Emicrania wrote: I cannot link it but there is russian a Wikipedia for 40k with basically everything you need out there.
ya, I have it on my phone but I can't access it on my work computer.
Vineheart01 wrote: that and the way the codex and CA organizes points is infuriating.
You are flipping pages constantly to get the points. They really want you to use powerlevels, yet they never update them to reflect various balance chances (admech the worst offender of this, a 2k admech list is around 130pl but is 98pl for orks lol)
Ummm you no longer look at codex for points. CA19 is only source for points now. CA19 has FULL list of points. Not only just changes.
Forget the codex points. CA19 has all the changed AND non hanged poiints.
(sorry for typos. I'm seriously drunk. But point is after chapter apprioved 19 there is no longer any need to refer to codex points. It is all in chapter apprived. This is at last how it should have been from get go with chapter approved. It took ages for GW to figure out but with this there's actually good reason to have points at the back rather than at the datasheets! So it took it's sweet time but GW finally figured out how to do point updates right in print format.)
Probably a moot point to be mulling over questionable FW units with an index update somewhere on the horizon, but:
Meka-Dreads? Semi-viable? The static BS 4+, Ramshackle Monster + KFF, and Big Zappa is what draws me in. I'd be all over it if you could ditch the Rippa Claw for a second ranged weapon like another Big Zappa or even a Rattler Kannon. They're a bit cheaper than a Morkanaut for a couple less wounds, though the drop from T8 to T7 is bad it might shake out ok with Ramshackle Monster.
Though I am probably overrating the Big Zappa. You compare it to an SAG and it's worse in most respects.
Madjob wrote: Probably a moot point to be mulling over questionable FW units with an index update somewhere on the horizon, but:
Meka-Dreads? Semi-viable? The static BS 4+, Ramshackle Monster + KFF, and Big Zappa is what draws me in. I'd be all over it if you could ditch the Rippa Claw for a second ranged weapon like another Big Zappa or even a Rattler Kannon. They're a bit cheaper than a Morkanaut for a couple less wounds, though the drop from T8 to T7 is bad it might shake out ok with Ramshackle Monster.
Though I am probably overrating the Big Zappa. You compare it to an SAG and it's worse in most respects.
Mork is just magnitudes better for like 30 more points. Do it for fun, not for competitive play.
Mekas are...usable but unless you own one and for some reason not a naut (either version) you really have no reason to run it. Even if its a fair bit cheaper, its not proportionally weaker. Its somewhere around half (slightly better than half really) of the naut variants for not much less in points.
The T7 is the main problem, the other issues are minor and explained by the cost difference. But that T7 hurts. If it was like 30-40pts cheaper or T8 it would be pretty much spot on imo
It would be nice if they had a smash attack too. Morks and gorks can get hordes of attacks in CC.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ultimately though, like most Ork FW stuff, it’s just over costed and/or trash tier, or just okay.
I think I’d happily take the Supa Skorcha big trakk or a Chinork and not much else. Garg Squig is close though. It needs to be able to move and shoot heavy weapons without penalty and it actually might be good.
Seraphons are also immident release. Battleome has been out of sale completely for few weeks and we know new one plus terrain is coming(terrain has already been shown).
I’m expecting sisters stuff preorder next sat and ghaz and pa6 preorder the week after. Mostly because I think the older rumour of a spacewolf and ork box set is coming...
I doubt that. First 8 sister kits took 2 weeks. I expect remaining 8 to take 2 weeks as well. Unless they do all in one or like sister - pa - sister -seraphon(or swap last 2). We know all 8 sister kits comes to preorder 28.3 by latest as well so no release some and then 2 month wait again.
But 2.5 hours and mystery shall be revealed
(would personally prefer all sisters now as if not i don't get some stuff for tournament. But not too sad of orks coming either)
Billagio wrote: Off topic - we’re still allowed to tellyporta DS turn 1 right? I remember GW posting an infographic or something saying we could
No the graphic was pre-september faq for stuff like da jump and grey knight spell.
In nutshell if after deployment unit is either on board or in transport or is space marine drop pod you can move it around with spells etc. Otherwise it's in reserve and can't be brought in turn 1.
Game 3 was against Chaos Marines, turn 1 he advanced into my gunline, on my turn I iced his Warlord with my Warlord, killed his cultists with my Scrapjets. Turn 2 he deep struck terminators and heavily damaged both scrapjets but failed to kill either one, on my turn I ran my scrapjets away and shot his terminators to death with my mek gunz and warlord. After this he conceded.
game 4 was against Tyranids, haven't played them much at all. he won the roll off and moved his entire army just out of charge range, on my turn I killed his Zoanthrope, carnifex, a biovore and almost his entire unit of maxed out Genestealers. Turn 2 he deep struck a lictor, his Hive Tyrant and a unit of those little nibbler guys. He moved his genstealer and broodlord into CC range of my Scrapjets, i had luckily positioned my grots very well and his Tyrant and lictor were denied targets of opportunity and had to try to charge the scrapjet as well. In overwatch my scrapjet killed the lictor, then it killed the broodlord then it killed the genestealer, at this point he conceded. I got some seriously lucky rolls with my Scrapjet, had he made it into combat he would have been able to pull my other 2 scrapjets into CC along with a unit of Grotz and at the end very likely my Weirdboy. Game ended with him still having 2 full units of gaunts on the table and his warlord but it was basically over as his warlord was stuck out in the open and the closest unit to my own warlord (SSAG Big Mek) and 2 of my 5 mek gunz.
Big Mek Grot Shokka is making a name for himself in the segmentum.
Game 3 was against Chaos Marines, turn 1 he advanced into my gunline, on my turn I iced his Warlord with my Warlord, killed his cultists with my Scrapjets. Turn 2 he deep struck terminators and heavily damaged both scrapjets but failed to kill either one, on my turn I ran my scrapjets away and shot his terminators to death with my mek gunz and warlord. After this he conceded.
game 4 was against Tyranids, haven't played them much at all. he won the roll off and moved his entire army just out of charge range, on my turn I killed his Zoanthrope, carnifex, a biovore and almost his entire unit of maxed out Genestealers. Turn 2 he deep struck a lictor, his Hive Tyrant and a unit of those little nibbler guys. He moved his genstealer and broodlord into CC range of my Scrapjets, i had luckily positioned my grots very well and his Tyrant and lictor were denied targets of opportunity and had to try to charge the scrapjet as well. In overwatch my scrapjet killed the lictor, then it killed the broodlord then it killed the genestealer, at this point he conceded. I got some seriously lucky rolls with my Scrapjet, had he made it into combat he would have been able to pull my other 2 scrapjets into CC along with a unit of Grotz and at the end very likely my Weirdboy. Game ended with him still having 2 full units of gaunts on the table and his warlord but it was basically over as his warlord was stuck out in the open and the closest unit to my own warlord (SSAG Big Mek) and 2 of my 5 mek gunz.
Big Mek Grot Shokka is making a name for himself in the segmentum.
Did he know the lictor can use the strat to deny overwatch ? Perhaps he underestimated the OW potentil of a scrapjet (it definately can kill a broodlordor a lictor with just a little bit of luck)
Is it possible? Sure. I've obviously been wrong about this release but the whole spanner and day counter thing is not related to Ghaz, I don't see how it could be.
The day counter does not tie into real days, this time around it would actually fall on a Saturday which makes it seem a bit more believable but the spanner comic last week (the 24th of Feb) said it was 29 days till the waaagh. So seven days in the real world passed but only 3 in the comic..
The comic is about the little deff skulls trying to fix his gargant for the waaagh.
The author is not directly employed by GW and has multiple other comics running. I'd be highly surprised if he knows anything about their release cycles at all.
Stop me if this has come up already and I missed it, but it occurred to me that they keep saying that Ghazghkull has been spotted in multiple places across the galaxy at once and nobody can figure out how he's doing it except by teleporting using the great rift. I wish to present an alternative hypothesis: there is more than one Ghazghkull.
Specifically, Ghazghkull is the "Great Beast" but there are other warbosses who have achieved Beast status, the same as during the War of the Beast. I predict the kit will be like a Greater Daemon kit that makes either a generic Beast warboss or a special character variant, namely Ghazghkull. That could mean getting a ghazghkull level character that can be given other clan traits, relics, etc.
Haasbioroid wrote: Ya, I have the Iron Boss too. My only hope is that the new Ghaz is bigger than the Iron Boss. Currently he towers over current Ghaz.
I picked up some kommandos too.
I gotta say, this sculptor is incredible. It's easily the best resin model I've built / worked with.
But yeah, I'm hoping something cool comes out of PA with a newer, big boss sort of MA mini. I'd love to field this guy a generic big boss (but ya know, he doesn't totally suck ass like the legends version), then Ghazzy when it's actually ghazzy.
office_waaagh wrote: Stop me if this has come up already and I missed it, but it occurred to me that they keep saying that Ghazghkull has been spotted in multiple places across the galaxy at once and nobody can figure out how he's doing it except by teleporting using the great rift. I wish to present an alternative hypothesis: there is more than one Ghazghkull.
Specifically, Ghazghkull is the "Great Beast" but there are other warbosses who have achieved Beast status, the same as during the War of the Beast. I predict the kit will be like a Greater Daemon kit that makes either a generic Beast warboss or a special character variant, namely Ghazghkull. That could mean getting a ghazghkull level character that can be given other clan traits, relics, etc.
Alternatively orks get a big Mek with KFF kit with an alternative named orkimedes version and some gakky lore about orkimedes using the rift to get ghaz all over.
To be fair I expect an ork big Mek kit more then GW retconning the legends entry they did recently.
It’s also pretty much given the warlord on bike will be in the new forgeworld book as well.
It seems the legends choices were done with future rules releases in mind so I don’t expect warlord in mega armour to be an option.
But an orkimedes or mogrok (which was in the lore today) option would be interesting named addition!
You mean the Orks most formidable weapon? The GAG?
The latest codex suggests that Gork and Mork are teleporting Ghaz' around not just space but also time. That is how he can appear in multiple places at once. He has a scrap, wins, then goes to another war zone a week earlier. The alternative theory; that there are other warbosses that have gone beast mode, is also a good one. Would be great to get generic 'Beast Bosses'.
that would be hilarious if we got "Beast Boss" as a replacement for the megaboss. Better than a regular boss in more ways than just a 2+ armor. It would also be kinda smart for GW to do that because all they'd have to do is swap heads on the upcoming Ghaz model, maybe make his gun arm have options, and bam theyre gonna sell 2-3 of them instead of just 1.
Vineheart01 wrote: that would be hilarious if we got "Beast Boss" as a replacement for the megaboss.
Better than a regular boss in more ways than just a 2+ armor. It would also be kinda smart for GW to do that because all they'd have to do is swap heads on the upcoming Ghaz model, maybe make his gun arm have options, and bam theyre gonna sell 2-3 of them instead of just 1.
That was kinda my thinking as well, a more versatile kit that could sell better, and it seems like they've set it up nicely with the novel series having the "big reveal" be that there's actually more than one Beast. The codex does say that he's getting teleported around the galaxy, but the codex also says that Makari got sat on and his banner became a relic and now he's getting a model, so they're obviously prepared to retcon just about anything if they can come up with a cool model to justify it.
Although an hilarious Ork version of Scotty from Star Trek with a Ghaz-sized shokk attack gun would be possibly the greatest thing to happen to 40k lore since the Deff Skwadron.
They probably wont though.... Ghaz will (99% sure) just make Ghaz. Thats like making Abaddon or Calgar a multipart kit to make other Chapter Masters and Chaos Warlords. Even Shadowsun, her armour was rare? As Shas O'Kais wore it too in Dawn of War Dark Crusade and in the older T'au codexes it was said it wasnt just Shadowsun that wore it, but she isnt multipart.
And also it cheapens Ghaz's new size if all Warbosses are his size too... Yeah maybe have a kit that makes a Megaboss sized Warlord (not Warboss) to represent the bigger Orkz out there, Snagrod, Nazdreg, Uglak, Deffrekka. Those are notably bigger Orkz for their class.
So they "COULD" make Ghaz multipart to make a standard Ork Warlord, but I highly doubt it.
Well that's certainly possible but I feel like it takes away a bit of the gravitas of getting a beast Ghaz if there's suddenly enough of them that are running around that you can create one that isn't even a unique character. I always read the Ghaz appearing at multiple places at once as a part of his ascension, but all of his avatars are still him. A non-unique beast boss HQ option would be someone else entirely.
In regards to the Makari "retcon" it's heavily insinuated by GW in the makari focus article that he's a new grot and Ghaz simply just named this one makari as well..
Sidenote, I'm sure GW will love having multiple versions of Ghaz running around, the flavour of the week SM character get to kill him and it doesn't impede on the story at all!
Edit: Apparently deffrekka is on the same train of thought as myself..
What I would prefer is for us to get a Mekboss (Like Buzzgob), a Painboss, Bikerboss (outside of Zhadsnark from FW), a bigger Warphead (bring back Ol' Zogwart!) and even a Stormboss!
But these things wont happen! But I would like for us to get Warboss Equivalents of the Oddboys but sadly its only Buzzgob who has that privilege :(
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PiñaColada wrote: Well that's certainly possible but I feel like it takes away a bit of the gravitas of getting a beast Ghaz if there's suddenly enough of them that are running around that you can create one that isn't even a unique character. I always read the Ghaz appearing at multiple places at once as a part of his ascension, but all of his avatars are still him. A non-unique beast boss HQ option would be someone else entirely.
In regards to the Makari "retcon" it's heavily insinuated by GW in the makari focus article that he's a new grot and Ghaz simply just named this one makari as well..
Sidenote, I'm sure GW will love having multiple versions of Ghaz running around, the flavour of the week SM character get to kill him and it doesn't impede on the story at all!
Edit: Apparently deffrekka is on the same train of thought as myself..
Somewhere I still have a Zodgrod model from 2nd edition, he was a runtherd special character. He made your snotlings better. I'm not making this up.
We sort of do have characters for the specialist mobs, they're just all special characters like Snikrot, Badrukk, Zagstruk, etc. Ol' Zogwort and Wazdakka didn't ever have models I don't think, sadly. Snikrot and Badrukk are pretty decent too, actually.
Old Zogwort was our warphead character but he never had a model so he went the way of the dodo.
i miss squigifying people with him, even if it almost...never...ever...went off lol
Vineheart01 wrote: that would be hilarious if we got "Beast Boss" as a replacement for the megaboss.
Better than a regular boss in more ways than just a 2+ armor. It would also be kinda smart for GW to do that because all they'd have to do is swap heads on the upcoming Ghaz model, maybe make his gun arm have options, and bam theyre gonna sell 2-3 of them instead of just 1.
It would also devalue ghaz when bunch of random bosses would be equal in power then
Vineheart01 wrote: that would be hilarious if we got "Beast Boss" as a replacement for the megaboss.
Better than a regular boss in more ways than just a 2+ armor. It would also be kinda smart for GW to do that because all they'd have to do is swap heads on the upcoming Ghaz model, maybe make his gun arm have options, and bam theyre gonna sell 2-3 of them instead of just 1.
It would also devalue ghaz when bunch of random bosses would be equal in power then
Unless he drew them from Octarius since that has some truly massive boys running around and could justify some beast-like Bosses.
tneva82 wrote: If you have other beasts of equal size you have other bosses in equal power to Ghaz. No more Ghaz being exceptional.
Not really. He could still be the Prophet of the WAAAAAAAAGH. I mean how many other Orks, regardless of size, have talked to Gork and Mork? Not many I'd imagine.
His size doesn't make him special, especially since he's not even the biggest Ork that's ever threatened the galaxy. It's his cunning and connection to the Ork gods that makes him special.
tneva82 wrote: If you have other beasts of equal size you have other bosses in equal power to Ghaz. No more Ghaz being exceptional.
Not really. He could still be the Prophet of the WAAAAAAAAGH. I mean how many other Orks, regardless of size, have talked to Gork and Mork? Not many I'd imagine.
His size doesn't make him special, especially since he's not even the biggest Ork that's ever threatened the galaxy. It's his cunning and connection to the Ork gods that makes him special.
This all day.
It’s Ghazzy’s intelligence that sets him apart, not his size.
There is also nothing stopping him being the biggest and baddest while having underlings of similar size beneath him. It would allow greater customisation and flexibility for our faction, something we desperately need.
tneva82 wrote: If you have other beasts of equal size you have other bosses in equal power to Ghaz. No more Ghaz being exceptional.
Not really. He could still be the Prophet of the WAAAAAAAAGH. I mean how many other Orks, regardless of size, have talked to Gork and Mork? Not many I'd imagine.
His size doesn't make him special, especially since he's not even the biggest Ork that's ever threatened the galaxy. It's his cunning and connection to the Ork gods that makes him special.
Ghaz might have some buff but in h2h prowess the others would be about same.
Ghaz has been described as unusually large and in ork terms that means unusually powerful. If he's suddenly equally sized with whole bunch there's suddenly whole lot of orks who could duel one on one with him.
I always thought Ghaz being in multiple places at once was due to lots of warp jumps in quick succession making time a bit wonky. Like that other warboss that killed his past self to get a second copy of his gun, but with the wherewithal to not immediately hunt down and kill himself.
I'd like to see Ghaz with a "come back after death" rule, to play up to the warp shenanigans. Like "when he is reduced to 0 wounds and removed from the board, at the end of your next movement phase, deepstrike him within 9" of where he died with 1d3+1 wounds remaining. You can only use this rule once per game". That would also get around the squishiness of having >10 wounds if we don't want him to be targetable.
gungo wrote: We still have buzzgrob, snikrot, Maddoc, zagstrukk, zhardsark, Ghazghkull, the only oddboy we are missing is a warp head.
I wouldn’t rule out Morgok from being a dual kit w a big Mek model in the beast rises. But no ghaz is a solo character model.
Those named equivalents are locked by klans. Im on about generic kits that would make Boss versions of the current oddboys like there is in the fluff. Pretty sure Uggrim from Evil Sunz Rising is a Mek Boss when he was at Grukk's council of Mekbosses. They werent just regular Big Meks.
Mogrok was a head smaller than Uggrim in that book, which is a pretty big difference between two Big Meks. And even one of Uggrim's mates tells him to shrink a little as he is getting too much attention due to his size.
Jidmah wrote: I don't think that yet another foot melee character would provide that though
I’d like a tough, melee beatstick unit personally. We don’t have one at present.
We have the Warboss, Deff Dread, MANz, Gorkanaut though. I really don't see what a Beast-Boss would do that these don't, they would just be treading on each other's design space, making one or the other obsolete.
I suppose AAE means someone like ghaz (current rules) without being clan locked and without all the buffs. Basically a 8/9W character with an invuln so he isn't pasted at range and could conceivably survive facing off against a smash captain in CC.
One does not simply fights a smash captain and walk away though. My other army has Typhus, Daemon Princes (2+/5++/4+++!) and Lords of Contagion which should be insanely survivable, but in reality die just as fast unless you get some insane invulnerable rolls though. The main difference to a warboss or deffkilla wartrike is the resilience to small army fire.
The issue you two are describing is that we are locked into the Killa Klaw because otherwise our HQs hit like a wet noodle, so we can't buy any of the relics which improve their resilience, while warlord traits are best reserved for characters which don't die after charging. Meanwhile Thrakka has both the 4++ and the D3 klaw (and a 2+ armor save on top) without wasting relics or warlord traits, which makes him pretty awesome.
IMO the solution is not to introduce yet another melee character (making all the warbosses obsolete in the process), but fixing what we have - namely making all PKs deal d6 damage instead of d3 and up the killsaws to flat 3 instead of flat 2. This would help pretty much every single one of our melee units out of the hole they are currently sitting in.
Jidmah wrote: One does not simply fights a smash captain and walk away though.
Dat reference
Jidmah wrote: My other army has Typhus, Daemon Princes (2+/5++/4+++!) and Lords of Contagion which should be insanely survivable, but in reality die just as fast unless you get some insane invulnerable rolls though. The main difference to a warboss or deffkilla wartrike is the resilience to small army fire.
The issue you two are describing is that we are locked into the Killa Klaw because otherwise our HQs hit like a wet noodle, so we can't buy any of the relics which improve their resilience, while warlord traits are best reserved for characters which don't die after charging.
Meanwhile Thrakka has both the 4++ and the D3 klaw (and a 2+ armor save on top) without wasting relics or warlord traits, which makes him pretty awesome.
IMO the solution is not to introduce yet another melee character (making all the warbosses obsolete in the process), but fixing what we have - namely making all PKs deal d6 damage instead of d3 and up the killsaws to flat 3 instead of flat 2. This would help pretty much every single one of our melee units out of the hole they are currently sitting in.
This, 1000 times this. We need survivability and less swingy dmg output. I love how swingy is playing orks, but atm I ALMOST regret the old wonky table and such.
Eh, a T5 model with 9 wounds and a 5+ invuln would have a pretty decent chance to survive a smash captain I think (especially if you're willing to burn a CP)
But to be fair, I'm not clamoring for such a character I'm just guessing what I thought AAE meant. What I want, is a much better relic big choppa. It's an insult that 8 points separate da killa klaw and headwhoppas killchoppa. (Also, I assume no but if I charge someone with the killchoppa and have brutal but kunning on them, does the MWs dealt on a 6 get bumped to 3?)
The upgraded PKs and killsaws would be amazing, I've been clamoring for reduced cost on them as a way of creating parity but I'd much rather just have them hit harder
Jidmah wrote: I don't think that yet another foot melee character would provide that though
I’d like a tough, melee beatstick unit personally. We don’t have one at present.
We have the Warboss, Deff Dread, MANz, Gorkanaut though. I really don't see what a Beast-Boss would do that these don't, they would just be treading on each other's design space, making one or the other obsolete.
I mean the warboss and MANZ are hardly tough. In fact I'd say the Warboss is pretty damn squishy. The Gorkanaut and Deff Dreads are both heavy support so don't help fill batts.
E - for me Warbosses are already redundant. We have cheaper and more versatile units for CP generation. We have Boss on Bike that serves as a quick (albeit fragile) beat stick. I'd like something that shows how tough Orks are supposed to be.
Last game I made the critical mistake of charging the Swarmlord with Zhadsnark (in my defence Swarmy had taken 3 wounds). Zhad did nothing. I mean nothing. Zilch. He was killed twice over by a fething Broodlord without the Swarmlord ever needing to fight. Meganobz wouldn't fare much better. We lack invuln saves outside of the KFF and it hurts us.
Jidmah wrote: One does not simply fights a smash captain and walk away though.
My other army has Typhus, Daemon Princes (2+/5++/4+++!) and Lords of Contagion which should be insanely survivable, but in reality die just as fast unless you get some insane invulnerable rolls though. The main difference to a warboss or deffkilla wartrike is the resilience to small army fire.
The issue you two are describing is that we are locked into the Killa Klaw because otherwise our HQs hit like a wet noodle, so we can't buy any of the relics which improve their resilience, while warlord traits are best reserved for characters which don't die after charging.
Meanwhile Thrakka has both the 4++ and the D3 klaw (and a 2+ armor save on top) without wasting relics or warlord traits, which makes him pretty awesome.
IMO the solution is not to introduce yet another melee character (making all the warbosses obsolete in the process), but fixing what we have - namely making all PKs deal d6 damage instead of d3 and up the killsaws to flat 3 instead of flat 2. This would help pretty much every single one of our melee units out of the hole they are currently sitting in.
then finally we would have a justification for our insanely high pts cost for our powerklaws and killsaws when every other powerfist/chainfist out there is lower pts cost than us.
Death skulls wartrike with "follow me lads" and the upper fixers. A pity he can't take kff.
All the army would charge after advancing and vehicles could be fixed 1d3 per turn.
A tad expensive and definitely not killy but decent supporting character.
for the record, the current ghaz isnt just a boss with prophet rule and killaklaw weapon.
He has T6 natively, 8W, and 5 attacks base. The regular warboss is T5/6W/4A
If (which i doubt) we get a Beast Boss generic, i'd expect that statline for him and the new Ghaz to be stronger still, possibly T7.
i highly doubt it will happen. And really all it would offer is a deffdread-like profile that has a 2+ save, slight chance for an invul, and is character protected. But also most likely wouldnt have access to anything other than a kombi weapon so....not really that useful.
It would be fun to have a badass, generic Ghazzy like boss that wasn't legend and wasn't just totally meh.
The main issue of warbosses is a relic only decent weapon (da Killa klaw and a lesser extent the relic Big Choppa) and just gakky # of attacks.
And the only real way of increasing their attacks is making them the warlord (no go for a unit with a 4+ save that is going to die after charging), psychic powers (fine, but the good one for characters is bottom priority before Warpath and Da Jump, so not as likely to be taken).
If warbosses could easily shoot up to 8 or 9 attacks like I've seen SM captains do, they would at least be something the opponent has to respect.
Thats one reason why im hoping for a meat-blender relic weapon. S+1, AP2, 1D with wounds of a 6 being 2, "the user adds 2D6 attacks when using this weapon" or something like that.
It bothers me that space marines captains have more attacks than a warboss and are still hitting just as hard while also being much harder to remove. Nobody w/o a special relic that adds a ton of low strength attacks, khorne, tyranids, or orks should have 8+ attacks....and for some reason orks actually DONT have that anywhere outside of a 310pt model.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Last game I made the critical mistake of charging the Swarmlord with Zhadsnark (in my defence Swarmy had taken 3 wounds). Zhad did nothing. I mean nothing. Zilch. He was killed twice over by a fething Broodlord without the Swarmlord ever needing to fight. Meganobz wouldn't fare much better. We lack invuln saves outside of the KFF and it hurts us.
I don't believe it hurts orks as much as you'd think. I play DG and all my characters have at least a 3+ save. T5, 4++ or 5++ and DR on top. They should be extremely durable compared to ork characters on paper, but in reality this only really makes a difference when getting targeted by snipers.
A warboss on bike doesn't really die any faster than a DGDP, despite the prince sporting a 2+ armor, 5++ invulnerable and a 5+ FNP. What usually kills him is some big anti-tank gun, autocannons and/or plasma pointed at him after his screen has been gunned down. Despite costing almost twice as much as a warboss, the DGDP will be just as dead as the warboss if a unit of shining spears wants it so. People make sure these kinds of characters die when they can, and all these extra layers of defense just slow down the inevitable, plus they aren't guaranteed to work at all. 5++/5+++ simply doesn't save you when a smash captain (or equivalent) rolls up and hits you 5 times after you've been softened up with some shooting.
Yes, I've had the odd game where Typhus saved six melta shots in a row, but usually if he gets in combat with something like a Broodlord or a smash captain he gets splatted just like any ork character would.
I've also been running the snazztrike a couple of times now, as I'm running the kult detachment anyways for my bikers, but it didn't really do anything.
While I miss the old 5++ cybork, I'm not too sure that I'd pay 10 points for those these days - a 5++ save on a 2+ models is meaningless more often than not anyways.
Death skulls wartrike with "follow me lads" and the upper fixers. A pity he can't take kff.
All the army would charge after advancing and vehicles could be fixed 1d3 per turn.
A tad expensive and definitely not killy but decent supporting character.
Fixer uppers haven't worked for me, as ork vehicles tend to be very binary unharmed or dead. I also don't see a reason to give him follow me lads, as any infantry that walks across the board can be accompanied by a much more cost-efficient warboss instead.
In my experience, the trike is best used to allow warbikers to charge T1 and then drive about either providing vehicles with the aura to do surprise charges or hit stuff with the melta(which is ok-ish for deathskulls) and running down stragglers in melee or assassinating support characters like librarians, warlocks or sergeants. The longer he stays alive, the more stuff he can shoot, the more likely he is going to make his points back. When the board has cleared, having a fast and durable character also can also help you with winning the mission or turning off/killing enemy shooting which is no longer protected by bubble wrap.
I might try giving him the deff skullz warlord trait to shoot the killa jet and shotguns at characters, but the low range on his guns has discouraged me from even trying.
Jidmah wrote: One does not simply fights a smash captain and walk away though.
My other army has Typhus, Daemon Princes (2+/5++/4+++!) and Lords of Contagion which should be insanely survivable, but in reality die just as fast unless you get some insane invulnerable rolls though. The main difference to a warboss or deffkilla wartrike is the resilience to small army fire.
The issue you two are describing is that we are locked into the Killa Klaw because otherwise our HQs hit like a wet noodle, so we can't buy any of the relics which improve their resilience, while warlord traits are best reserved for characters which don't die after charging.
Meanwhile Thrakka has both the 4++ and the D3 klaw (and a 2+ armor save on top) without wasting relics or warlord traits, which makes him pretty awesome.
IMO the solution is not to introduce yet another melee character (making all the warbosses obsolete in the process), but fixing what we have - namely making all PKs deal d6 damage instead of d3 and up the killsaws to flat 3 instead of flat 2. This would help pretty much every single one of our melee units out of the hole they are currently sitting in.
I think that his point is that the warboss is supposed to be the meanest toughest ork in your army (not counting Thrakka), but a T5 4+ 6w model just isn't that in 8E. They are a footslogging glass-knife unless they take the Killa Klaw. I think that the warboss needs a 5++ or something to make them tougher.
And I'd still rather have PK's be 1+d3 or 2d3 damage instead of 1d6 since it would be less swingy.
Although it might make them survive much longer, at least it would give them a *chance*. I like rolling dice. Having only a 4+ armour save is just depressing on what should be the most badass model in my army.
As an aside: something seems to be dropping March 9th, according to the community site.
The warboss has never been anything else though - all orks have always been bullies that excel at utterly destroying things that can't fight back. Charging a warboss into something like a space marine captain has been a death sentence all the way back to 4th edition. Winning duels against equally powerful opponents has never been part of the ork identity, quite the opposite.
What we are currently lacking is the "utterly destroying things" part. Warbosses used to flip landraiders on their head, nowadays they struggle to scratch the paint on a rhino.
Jidmah wrote: The warboss has never been anything else though - all orks have always been bullies that excel at utterly destroying things that can't fight back. Charging a warboss into something like a space marine captain has been a death sentence all the way back to 4th edition. Winning duels against equally powerful opponents has never been part of the ork identity, quite the opposite.
What we are currently lacking is the "utterly destroying things" part. Warbosses used to flip landraiders on their head, nowadays they struggle to scratch the paint on a rhino.
Fair enough. What do you think would fix this though? More attacks for the warboss or making PK's more powerful?
Even being able to take a killsaw would help with consistency.
But it's largely # of attacks. If Warbosses were base 6 attacks, buffable to 8 or 9 with psychic, even the PK might be something to respect. Base 4 is a joke. Assuming the PK only, hitting on 3s, he's what... maybe 2, 2.25 wounds total?
issue with giving the boss enough attacks to once again be a major threat to vehicles is he can suddenly clear numbers too.
If were talking about bringing him back to "vehicle die because i looked at it" but otherwise kinda crap status, he should have a special rule where if hes hitting a vehicle (or monster?) he becomes massively stronger.
Which tbh im surprised the klaw in general (since its more expensive than fists) doesnt have some bonus against vehicles by default. Like 2D3 damage against vehicles, D3 against everything else. Why? Can opener fingers.
Yeah, I agree with Jid. Leave the Invulns and stuff for the Marines. For me, Orkz are defined by two things: good CC and good Toughness. We're kinda lacking in both right now.
Vineheart01 wrote: issue with giving the boss enough attacks to once again be a major threat to vehicles is he can suddenly clear numbers too.
If were talking about bringing him back to "vehicle die because i looked at it" but otherwise kinda crap status, he should have a special rule where if hes hitting a vehicle (or monster?) he becomes massively stronger.
Which tbh im surprised the klaw in general (since its more expensive than fists) doesnt have some bonus against vehicles by default. Like 2D3 damage against vehicles, D3 against everything else. Why? Can opener fingers.
From all the old lore and the books about Orkz Warbosses, they SHOULD mince anything smaller than them, be it a Captain, Autarch, Archon or Overlord IF they hit. Just look at Grukk's story or the Warboss using a dead horse to clobber Valhallans in the 5th ed rulebook. Look back at Gorgutz when he sync killed a marine, there is no finesse... Its pure savagery, mashing the marine into the ground then batting him away like a discarded toy!
Warbosses SHOULD have more attacks than Captains, and they SHOULD have the power behind the swings, they have always had more attacks than marine counterparts, but the lack of charging giving extra attacks and marines getting Shock Assault makes the Warboss look tame, 8th as a whole has weakened the stature and prowess of the feared Warboss as Jidmah stated. Orkz across the whole range need an increase in shooting and melee attacks.... When people go Orkz drown you in dice, I dont see it! Marines get more shots and attacks. The only unit that throws buckets of dice for shooting is Warbikers but they cost more than 80% of bike units out there in 8th and have no durability.
How I would improve the Warboss is changing the power klaw (if it costs more than a powerfist it shouldnt be the same as a god damn powerfist). Give it bigger damage, or an extra attack when you use it. Or we add the old Choppa rule from Fantasy and tweak it alittle. If marines can get the Assault doctrine why not give us a way to get us AP on the charge. Orkz NEED to be TOUGH again, they dont need armour or invuns, but rather a fight after death mechanic (like SoB) or a Graia death save that scales with each type of Ork... 6 for a Boy, 5+ for a Nob and a 4+ for Bosses.
You can cut an Ork in half and he would still be crawling at you, lop off an arm it'll make him more mad, blast a bolt round into his head and he'll do a Ghaz. But in this edition Orkz arent tough, Nobz arent scary, and a Warboss isnt feared like the old times.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ive had Warbosses bounce off Canoness, Archons, Autarchs, (non smash) Captains whilst the Warboss costs more... It happens way more than it should as well. Its pretty sad really.
tulun wrote: Even being able to take a killsaw would help with consistency.
But it's largely # of attacks. If Warbosses were base 6 attacks, buffable to 8 or 9 with psychic, even the PK might be something to respect. Base 4 is a joke. Assuming the PK only, hitting on 3s, he's what... maybe 2, 2.25 wounds total?
Yeah, 4 is really bad, especially since all the marines have gotten their +1A during the first round of combat. 5(+attack squig) seems more like what a warboss should be capable of, especially since that git on the wartrike already has 5.
In general, I think d6 is a good idea for PKs precisely because it's random. A single PK nob or pain boy shouldn't be able to consistently gib enemy characters or take huge chunks out of vehicles. He can roll high though and become a threat to either, which is very much how they used to work in previous editions. In addition, when you have lots of PK attacks going through, like when a warboss attacks or in nob and MAN squads, multiple d6 become consistent at crushing units with high wound counts, while staying unreliable against elite infantry.
This way, the upgrade to a killsaw (as TH equivalent) remains meaningful, as this would be the true all-round weapon, which is good against everything.
all valid comments. Especially since the captain has a reason to NOT charge in, a warboss should kick a captain's butt. Non-smashcaptain is pretty much exact in cost vs a boss and would still beat a boss with ease. Warboss does nothing until the fighting begins. Theres a 6pt difference between a captain w/ fist and a boss w/ pk, and somehow that 6pt difference is -1T + reroll1 to hit aura + 4up invul + all those fancy Angel of Death rules. T4/5 difference means almost nothing for a character.
i havnt even used a warboss in my lists for almost a year because theyre so pathetic atm. In fact i feel hampered when i DO use one. And yeah i was a bit pissed about the whole marines getting +1 attack rule. Theres very little difference in terms of threat vs cost between marines and orks atm, but a huge durability difference.
I mean, the very fresh leaks of primaris ragnar has 7 (!) base attacks and get 3 instead of the standard 1 when shock assault is applicable. At S+2 AP-4 D2.
Imagine a relic big choppa getting us somewhere to that territory
deffrekka wrote: Ive had Warbosses bounce off Canoness, Archons, Autarchs, (non smash) Captains whilst the Warboss costs more... It happens way more than it should as well. Its pretty sad really.
I agree with everything but this - all those examples are agile and skilled fighters, who are the one kind of enemy that regularly defeat warbosses in fluff, they are the paper to their rock.
In previous edition, those models usually had higher initiative than warbosses and often killed them before they struck, even if they were just wielding power swords. A warboss bouncing off a captain or autarch is perfectly reasonable in my book.
The problem is if they didnt kill the boss first before, the boss killed them. And what didnt outmaneuver the boss, the boss killed.
Nothing is afraid of a boss right now. Hell the Killaklaw has to perfect hit/wound to kill even a silly Trukk right now...where before he'd just look at the dang thing and it would die.
Unfortunately all this rabble isnt gonna get fixed anytime soon since we're talking dataslate updates to fix the issue, not just cost changes. Until a codex 2.0 or a new multi-part boss kit, not happening.
deffrekka wrote: Ive had Warbosses bounce off Canoness, Archons, Autarchs, (non smash) Captains whilst the Warboss costs more... It happens way more than it should as well. Its pretty sad really.
I agree with everything but this - all those examples are agile and skilled fighters, who are the one kind of enemy that regularly defeat warbosses in fluff, they are the paper to their rock.
In previous edition, those models usually had higher initiative than warbosses and often killed them before they struck, even if they were just wielding power swords. A warboss bouncing off a captain or autarch is perfectly reasonable in my book.
I never used to loose my Warboss back in 4th and 5th vs Autarchs and Captains. The Autarch would wound on 6s unless it had a Scorpions Claw (unwieldy) or a Executioner (Str of 4 so wounding on 5s). The same was said with Captains unless they had a Relic Blade (costed a lot) a Powerfist (unwieldy) or a Poweraxe (Unwieldy and only wounding on 4s). Whilst a Warboss was slower at Iniatitive 4 (but unwieldy with the Powerklaw), if he hit and they failed 1 save, they were red paste due to Instant Death. The Warboss back then also had the 5++ and then would have usually been in a Nobz squad with a Painboy and Waaagh! Banner. I never had a bad challenge with my Warboss back then, he could walk out of a duel with those characters and still have more for anything else. It was more a Chaos Lord with Daemonic Weapons that would smash the Warboss or a Daemon Prince, not a Captain or an Autarch. An Archon however, he was pretty mean in combat. Power swords werent killing Warbosses when they were wounding on 6s or 5s, unless your opponent was super lucky to just blast you with 3 wounds off the bat and you didnt make atleast 1 Cybork body save.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vineheart01 wrote: The problem is if they didnt kill the boss first before, the boss killed them.
And what didnt outmaneuver the boss, the boss killed.
Nothing is afraid of a boss right now. Hell the Killaklaw has to perfect hit/wound to kill even a silly Trukk right now...where before he'd just look at the dang thing and it would die.
Unfortunately all this rabble isnt gonna get fixed anytime soon since we're talking dataslate updates to fix the issue, not just cost changes. Until a codex 2.0 or a new multi-part boss kit, not happening.
Exactly, I agree with all of what Vineheart says.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Im listening to Valraks stream and it looks like Ragnar gets 10 ATTACKS ON THE CHARGE/CHARGED/INTERVENED.
That is just silly, Ghaz better have something like this or more as thats pure stupidity, especially with Rragnar being str 6 ap 4 and 2 damage a pop...
As a rule I never throw a Warboss into a fight with anything he doesn't have an advantage on. I can't think of too many times Typically Mine kill vehicles or wipe out helpless squads or the like. Enemy characters get to fight boys mobs or something better. It's worked well for me for 6 editions so far.
Regular infantry even elite flavor have more numbers than he has attacks, and the elite flavor can kill him with 1 dude remaining most of the time. Vehicles already mentioned he cant kill on his own anymore, just beat up a bit. Other characters that can melee at all have an invul or are even meaner in melee. Things that suck at melee often have enough overwatch to be a severe pain to him or his boyz/vehicle hes charging with.
Even with killaklaw, what exactly is he going after that isnt a suicide mission?
A regular nob with pk is as dangerous as a boss. Not exactly of course because theres a 1 to hit difference and a 4th attack but the vast cost difference offsets that.
warhead01 wrote: As a rule I never throw a Warboss into a fight with anything he doesn't have an advantage on. I can't think of too many times Typically Mine kill vehicles or wipe out helpless squads or the like. Enemy characters get to fight boys mobs or something better. It's worked well for me for 6 editions so far.
warhead01 wrote: As a rule I never throw a Warboss into a fight with anything he doesn't have an advantage on. I can't think of too many times Typically Mine kill vehicles or wipe out helpless squads or the like. Enemy characters get to fight boys mobs or something better. It's worked well for me for 6 editions so far.
Such a Blood Axe way of fighting!!!
You might be right. Mostly He fell into a roll of joining a unit and providing the LD after old Mob rule went away. But at a certain point everything could easily slay my Warboss and that trend continues until this edition. I'll take my 3rd edition options any day of the week, if only.
The Warboss has been surprisingly durable this edition. When your expecting to be flattened and it doesn't happen it's kinda cool. Still I want him to win so He goes after the wounded or what ever wont fight back very well. While Hulkamania, er I mean the boys beat the tar out of everything else. It's worked. I'm set in my ways after so many years.
warhead01 wrote: As a rule I never throw a Warboss into a fight with anything he doesn't have an advantage on. I can't think of too many times Typically Mine kill vehicles or wipe out helpless squads or the like. Enemy characters get to fight boys mobs or something better. It's worked well for me for 6 editions so far.
Such a Blood Axe way of fighting!!!
You might be right. Mostly He fell into a roll of joining a unit and providing the LD after old Mob rule went away. But at a certain point everything could easily slay my Warboss and that trend continues until this edition. I'll take my 3rd edition options any day of the week, if only.
The Warboss has been surprisingly durable this edition. When your expecting to be flattened and it doesn't happen it's kinda cool. Still I want him to win so He goes after the wounded or what ever wont fight back very well. While Hulkamania, er I mean the boys beat the tar out of everything else. It's worked. I'm set in my ways after so many years.
Probably why my Warboss always dies this edition, I still throw him against other character like the time of old. Its what his fluff is all about and he has 2 boss poles full of claimed warlords that he has slain in challenges. Hopefully PA will give the Orkz something and not just it being Space Wolf focused which I am betting it will be.
warhead01 wrote: As a rule I never throw a Warboss into a fight with anything he doesn't have an advantage on. I can't think of too many times Typically Mine kill vehicles or wipe out helpless squads or the like. Enemy characters get to fight boys mobs or something better. It's worked well for me for 6 editions so far.
Such a Blood Axe way of fighting!!!
You might be right. Mostly He fell into a roll of joining a unit and providing the LD after old Mob rule went away. But at a certain point everything could easily slay my Warboss and that trend continues until this edition. I'll take my 3rd edition options any day of the week, if only.
The Warboss has been surprisingly durable this edition. When your expecting to be flattened and it doesn't happen it's kinda cool. Still I want him to win so He goes after the wounded or what ever wont fight back very well. While Hulkamania, er I mean the boys beat the tar out of everything else. It's worked. I'm set in my ways after so many years.
Probably why my Warboss always dies this edition, I still throw him against other character like the time of old. Its what his fluff is all about and he has 2 boss poles full of claimed warlords that he has slain in challenges. Hopefully PA will give the Orkz something and not just it being Space Wolf focused which I am betting it will be.
Agreed. The Warboss is the real victim here.
The only other "trick" I had was to have the War boss hit a really hard target to do as much damage as possible so the next model up to bat could "steal the glory".
Now days I also Keep a pain boy very close and a banner Nob and who ever else just push these several characters around near each other and something else in a space where they will let each other operate very strongly. situation dependent. One of my lists was a variety of units in trukks operating like that to share buffs and pick where I wanted my fight. When things stopped going my way we just mounted up and rolled out leaving the stuff we were fighting to my mek gun line. Work well, got a good response as well, blew my opponents mind. One of the more enjoyable games this edition. My usual opponent is a cheese monger any time he doesn't have an easy answer it's brilliant. But...My plan...
The poor Warboss has been done dirty ever since 7E codex, Cybork Body going from a 5++ to a 6+++ just seemed like an unfortunate oversight among many, many unfortunate oversights in that codex, but the purging of wargear options to fit existing models of course only made things worse. People have been clamoring for a Ghaz model update for more than a decade but I've always thought that issues with the core of the model line should be addressed before special characters should be a concern, and right now the biggest issue in the Ork line is absolutely our stock HQs.
I haven't played a single game with the codex yet. shortly after it came out I boxed up all my Orks and am only now starting thinking about trying to put a list together and arrange a game.
Not an overly competitive game as my friends are still just getting into 8th for the most part.
Hopefully the game will be this month, if it can be arranged.
warhead01 wrote: I haven't played a single game with the codex yet. shortly after it came out I boxed up all my Orks and am only now starting thinking about trying to put a list together and arrange a game.
Not an overly competitive game as my friends are still just getting into 8th for the most part.
Hopefully the game will be this month, if it can be arranged.
I pretty much did that too, I played them with the index, then a couple months when the codex was released but I hated the codex (still do tbh, it's been gutted of any character the previous editions had) but I've gotten back into Orkz this year due to Ghazghkull and PA6.
Orkz are my love but in 8th I cant really stand how they are, out gunned, out stabbed, other armies can horde better and cheaper, and we cant take squadrons of battlewagons but marine, elder, guard can with fire prisms, predators, leman russes, etc.
I wish the Codex was abit like Dark Eldar, where only 2 units are trash (incubi, helions) and you can make a characterful list with anything. Most of 8th I've played Admech and a sprinkling of Dark Eldar. I had a long break from the game as I couldnt stomach it anymore (May last year until January this year).
Everything is dialed up to 11 on the killy scale, but I find Orkz arent on that same playing field bar a few units like Smashaguns, Souped up Shokkas and Flashgits.
It's sad really. I know CA wont redo the codex but hoepfullllyyyyy it's enough to give us options and then CA2020 can cost us correctly (characters, buggies, boys, powerklaws and saws, everything really is too expensive) and actually increase the cost of other armies.
Why are people defending the current warboss?! They're garbage and exist only to do one of 3 things;
1. Suicide killer klaw for cheap(er than bike boss)
2. WAAAAAGGGHHH! For green tide lists.
3. Mitigate morale.
It's a sorry state of affairs and while a warboss losing to an Autarch, Archon or fething Canoness on the charge might be ok for some people it is utterly heinous as far as I'm concerned.
Warbosses should put up a good enough fight to give smash captains and any other melee best stick a run for their money. That is their role in the lore. It used to be their role on the table top.
I think I am going to push a lot of shoota boys maybe 90 of them in my upcoming list. I have a few of the new vehicles painted but am loathed to use them. I found my storm boys, I am up to 60 of them and may push that up to 90 very soon. I like a smattering of everything in my for fun lists. Like a gorka morka style list from old 3rd edition battle reports. a core of foot troops supported by the fast stuff and artillery and now days burna bombers.
I just counted up my Manz with kombi Rokits which I want to stick in a list just cause.
Just wish there was a better way to build my own warlord for all the kinds of game play. Don't play in many tournaments usually only 1 every year if I go, out club tournament is usually a good time. So The Index is still fair play for me.
Really just want to terrorize my opponents for a few rounds then get a near loss. Good stuff, loads of fun.
I started trimming my collection down last year I had way too much I was never using any more. 20+ years will do that though.
I'm not sure about New Ghaz but I am looking forward to seeing the model might be one of a handful of thing I add this year but my collection is almost complete.
Really wish we had a strong indirect fire weapon.
Vehicle squadrons would be nice, we can get dreads, artillery and most of the new Vehicles that way but more would be cool. The codex freaked me out because we haven't had a good codex in forevva and that seemed most unnatural.
I think it's a lack of actual ork creativity on the part of GW.
flandarz wrote: I agree the Warboss needs and deserves more. Question is whether we'll want to stomach the point increase GW would 100% include with any such buff.
I would. Or at least, maybe just wargear options so you can go cheap or build a proper fighter.
A walking boss can be taken for as little as 78 points. That’s kind of insane given how bad ass they are supposed to be. They shouldn’t be much stronger at that cost...
They are barely cheaper than a SM captain and that SM captain can literally do nothing but stand there and cause more impact to the game than a warboss could ever dream of doing. While still being deadly enough to put the hurt on most things that reach their gunline.
deffrekka wrote: I never used to loose my Warboss back in 4th and 5th vs Autarchs and Captains. The Autarch would wound on 6s unless it had a Scorpions Claw (unwieldy) or a Executioner (Str of 4 so wounding on 5s). The same was said with Captains unless they had a Relic Blade (costed a lot) a Powerfist (unwieldy) or a Poweraxe (Unwieldy and only wounding on 4s). Whilst a Warboss was slower at Iniatitive 4 (but unwieldy with the Powerklaw), if he hit and they failed 1 save, they were red paste due to Instant Death. The Warboss back then also had the 5++ and then would have usually been in a Nobz squad with a Painboy and Waaagh! Banner. I never had a bad challenge with my Warboss back then, he could walk out of a duel with those characters and still have more for anything else. It was more a Chaos Lord with Daemonic Weapons that would smash the Warboss or a Daemon Prince, not a Captain or an Autarch. An Archon however, he was pretty mean in combat. Power swords werent killing Warbosses when they were wounding on 6s or 5s, unless your opponent was super lucky to just blast you with 3 wounds off the bat and you didnt make atleast 1 Cybork body save.
I'm 100% sure none of that happened in 4th or 5th, half of the rules you are referencing didn't exist back then An autarch in that time would be riding a jetbike and sporting a laser lance, making him S6 on the charge, with a bonus attack for holding a pistol. Foot autarchs were considered jokes and could not have either of the weapons you named.
A captain/chapter master usually was equipped with a single lightning claw or a fist to go with a storm shield or a pair of claws. You were only hitting them on 4+ and they had a 3++ or 4++, meaning failing to kill one was easy and they would get to kill you for sure in two rounds of combat. So charging one was basically a coin flip of whether you lose your warboss or not, and thus always a terrible decision.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
An Actual Englishman wrote: Why are people defending the current warboss?! They're garbage and exist only to do one of 3 things;
1. Suicide killer klaw for cheap(er than bike boss)
2. WAAAAAGGGHHH! For green tide lists.
3. Mitigate morale.
It's a sorry state of affairs and while a warboss losing to an Autarch, Archon or fething Canoness on the charge might be ok for some people it is utterly heinous as far as I'm concerned.
Warbosses should put up a good enough fight to give smash captains and any other melee best stick a run for their money. That is their role in the lore. It used to be their role on the table top.
Agree, warbosses suck without the relic right now.
That said, you don't charge beatsticks into characters with 4++ saves, you are wasting powerful attacks and valuable AP on something that's specifically equipped to tank those. That's pretty much like shooting anti-tank at infantry.
Smash captains and daemon princes regularly bounce of autarchs or archons, I see no reason why this should be different for warbosses. The issue is that those characters can just tank those PK hits if the do get through, while a Malific Talons, Thunder Hammers or Daemonic Swords shred them. If PKs would be dealing d6 damage instead of d3, none of those would survive two unsaved wounds.
Our biggest problem IMHO is that nowadays marines get to shoot as many shots as we do (or more I.e. aggressors) all while hitting on 3’s or 2’s ,oh and usually rerolling 1’s while not being outnumbered too much either. I’m an old Skarboy that’s been playing since misty old days of rogue trader. I remember when we used to outnumber marines like 4-5 to 1 and they weren’t getting all these rerolls all the time so it was a pretty fair fight , they were better we were more, nowadays they’re better and I’ve been outnumbered by marine infantry lists and that’s just bloody wrong
acme2468 wrote: Our biggest problem IMHO is that nowadays marines get to shoot as many shots as we do (or more I.e. aggressors) all while hitting on 3’s or 2’s ,oh and usually rerolling 1’s while not being outnumbered too much either. I’m an old Skarboy that’s been playing since misty old days of rogue trader. I remember when we used to outnumber marines like 4-5 to 1 and they weren’t getting all these rerolls all the time so it was a pretty fair fight , they were better we were more, nowadays they’re better and I’ve been outnumbered by marine infantry lists and that’s just bloody wrong
When you see how insanely good Intercessors are, why wouldn't you spam them?
I usually field a minimum of like.. 60 grots, so I doubt I'd get outnumbered, but I could see it getting close. 40+ intercessors is legitimately a powerful way to build Spacies.
they fire about as much as we do because they used to all have twinlink weapons (the units that existed before anyway).
Twinlink went from innate reroll to doubleshot. My initial thought was "sweet, so roughly same odds to hit but potential chance to get more hits" and then i saw marines and some others have aura rerolls....so.. marines got double shots for free basically since they were the primary users of twinlinked before.
and GW does not value rerolls of any kind enough, especially reroll to wound i feel like the units that get that just happen to have it, dont feel like they pay a premium for it at all...maybe a pt or two at best.
acme2468 wrote: Our biggest problem IMHO is that nowadays marines get to shoot as many shots as we do (or more I.e. aggressors) all while hitting on 3’s or 2’s ,oh and usually rerolling 1’s while not being outnumbered too much either. I’m an old Skarboy that’s been playing since misty old days of rogue trader. I remember when we used to outnumber marines like 4-5 to 1 and they weren’t getting all these rerolls all the time so it was a pretty fair fight , they were better we were more, nowadays they’re better and I’ve been outnumbered by marine infantry lists and that’s just bloody wrong
When you see how insanely good Intercessors are, why wouldn't you spam them?
I usually field a minimum of like.. 60 grots, so I doubt I'd get outnumbered, but I could see it getting close. 40+ intercessors is legitimately a powerful way to build Spacies.
Since the Conquest magazine hit Germany, seeing armies with 60 intercessors is not that uncommon. They are decent at shooting about anything, good in combat, fairly durable, cheap to buy and, of course, CP generating troops. And extremely annoying to remove with ork shooting
and those 60 intercessors have 2 wounds a pop too so even just on wounds they out do us. Used to be around 3 Boys for a Marine, Now is not even 2 with Tacticals and only 2 with Intercessors.
deffrekka wrote: and those 60 intercessors have 2 wounds a pop too so even just on wounds they out do us. Used to be around 3 Boys for a Marine, Now is not even 2 with Tacticals and only 2 with Intercessors.
If multi damage weapons didn't exist, this would be more relevant. If you're packing a butt load of D2 weapons, that extra wound is looking quite pointless.
Doesn't mean they still aren't god tier, and paying 8.5 points per wound for what they get is just aggressively cost, but model count does still matter depending what your opponent is packing.
Vineheart01 wrote:
yeah marines have been fielding barely less models than orks these days.
And orks are still tissuepaper durable.
Orks have options to circumvent their durability issues.. just most players choose not to do it. 5++, 6+++ gives you a roughly 45% survival rate, irrespective of the gun shooting at your boy. A lot of people don't bother with a painboy. If you do DS, 6++, 6+++ is ~30%, irrespective of gun being fired at them, and it's easier to keep coverage.
Jidmah wrote: There is nothing more satisfying than dropping burna bomms on a unit of 10 intercessors
I dunno, have you tried it on a group of 10 buffed paladins? I managed to do 6MWs like that, which is "only" 2 models but still quite good. Back when more people ran hellblasters I've managed to kill 4 of them in one bomb once (rolled 7 MWs and one was already damaged)
Edit: It should be noted that the prevalence of D2 weapons makes those painboy buffs vastly inferior than they might seem at first glance though. He might still be worth it, but rolling double 6's to save a singular boy isn't a big boost to your durability.
Orks have options to circumvent their durability issues.. just most players choose not to do it. 5++, 6+++ gives you a roughly 45% survival rate, irrespective of the gun shooting at your boy. A lot of people don't bother with a painboy. If you do DS, 6++, 6+++ is ~30%, irrespective of gun being fired at them, and it's easier to keep coverage.
Nobody uses painboyz because theyre incredibly difficult to get across the table with the boyz and they die to a stiff breeze when either they get a clear shot on one or a sniper is around.
And they arent cheap.
Also they dont work on vehicles, and orks have a ton of vehicles that are used right now.
Nobody uses painboyz because theyre incredibly difficult to get across the table with the boyz and they die to a stiff breeze when either they get a clear shot on one or a sniper is around.
And they arent cheap.
Mad dok. He’s actually not awful vs snipers. 4+, 6++, 5+++, T5.
And the ork top 8 at LVO included one so he sees play.
Top 8 Australian open also had a painboy.
Also they dont work on vehicles, and orks have a ton of vehicles that are used right now.
Well yes but we were talking about boys vs intercessors. Ork vehicles aren’t as paper thin as boys are ( albeit not super tanky).
Vineheart01 wrote: Admittedly i do i need a grotsnik model, since i started using deathskullz anyway purely to reduce the time i spend rerolling 1s with badmoons lol
He’s legit awesome. He’s even decent in combat because he hits on 3s, not 4s.
He’s basically a warboss with a normal PK offensively, plus DS rerolls.
I think people tend to stay away from Painboyz (in general) because you get less return on your investment with them over KFF Mekz. They both need to "save" approximately 10 Boyz to earn their points back (I think 9 for the Painboy and 11 for the KFF Mek), but the Mek has twice the chance to save them (5++ vs 6+++). Of course, you can get more coverage from a Painboy than a KFF Mek too, because the former doesn't require complete coverage.
There's also the fact that all that protection tends to last you only 1 turn, as you'll be immediately Jumping those Boyz out so they can get to work. So, really, it's a matter of if 9 more Boyz will do more for you than a Painboy, and unless its Grotsnik, they probably will.
So is there even a reason to use a KFF any more then?
Rolling my eyes here. First they put it on a mega armoured Big Mek then what? I leave it in the back to cover mek gunz?
Granted I will still use the one from the index but it seems like a really bad choice on GW's part.
If using a KFF and/and or a pain boy is not a good use of points then? Just buy more boys?
I mean they're both decent and it's far more enjoyable to have a couple of characters instead of amassing yet more boys IMO. A painboy is pretty good for bikes as well (mainly T1 then of course) since there are a lot of D2 weapons in the game and that 6+++ actually helps mitigate those losses fairly often.
But usually a painboy and KFF help protect the boyz squads that you aren't da jumping that turn so they still have their uses
Whether it's a good use of points will be up to your playstyle and army composition. I'm just giving ya the numbers on when your Painboy and KFF "makes back their points" so you don't just go "improved durability is always the best choice". The latter can protect a single Boy Mob and, on average, he'll make his points back. The former needs to protect two Boy Mobz to make back his points. But if you're going heavy on Infantry, the Painboy can protect more units than the KFF can, so there's that as well. And it's also relevant to note that a unit that is Jumped out loses the KFF and Painboy buffs.
In the end, do whatcha wanna do and if it works for ya that's fantastic.
flandarz wrote: Whether it's a good use of points will be up to your playstyle and army composition. I'm just giving ya the numbers on when your Painboy and KFF "makes back their points" so you don't just go "improved durability is always the best choice". The latter can protect a single Boy Mob and, on average, he'll make his points back. The former needs to protect two Boy Mobz to make back his points. But if you're going heavy on Infantry, the Painboy can protect more units than the KFF can, so there's that as well. And it's also relevant to note that a unit that is Jumped out loses the KFF and Painboy buffs.
In the end, do whatcha wanna do and if it works for ya that's fantastic.
Which loops around to my original comment:
People complain that Boy like units are paper thin but then seem to not want to use the options to protect them. A full stacked boy unit with KFF / FNP is actually pretty hard to shift without a lot of firepower.
KFF is great, but it's really limited to turn 1 for boys. Painboy aura is way more forgiving.
As most lists that use lots of boys typically are fielding 3 full squads, I think at that point, it's easy to think Mad Dok / Painboy is worth it (he also makes other nearby characters harder to kill, and can heal up wounded characters if they survive a sniper round). The Austrailian open player actually used a normal painboy to beef up grots and 30 flash gits.
A single boy unit stacked is probably not worth it, no, especially if you're just Da Jumping it turn 1. Just hide it in the corner, that's even better than any save. But I think a single squad of 30 boys is not really something people field in competitive play.
I haven't really done the 90 boy style list, but I imagine you aren't Da Jumping ALL of them. If they are moving up and holding board control midfield, and those units might have to endure several turns of shooting, doesn't seem like a bad investment.
if i actually have numbers of boyz (90-120) my dajump is a utility to get a squad past an annoying barrier, not send them across the board. Dajump them far enough ahead to shoot with shootas but not so far that they are away from the Tide and probably in prime position to get focused down with no protection.
Otherwise i usually try to dajump under a wazbom. At worst, the wazbom suddenly draws all the anti-tank fire to get rid of that KFF before the anti-horde fire comes and my other vehicles are fine, at best they dont and i keep enough boyz for a Green Tide more often than not.
I use doc grotsnik all the time. He's pretty good in combat with fist of gork never had a game where he was not worth his points.
And deffskullz 6++ and doc 6+++ is a great combo to protekt
30 boys need about 160 str 4 shots on bs3 to got wiped with 5++ 6+++
And 130 shots bs3 str 4 with 6++. 6+++
Thats nothing easy to kill in my eyes.
Because it's invul and feel no pain
Same ammount of shots with let's say ap - 1 kills 21 Marines or 10 primaris.
PiñaColada wrote: I mean they're both decent and it's far more enjoyable to have a couple of characters instead of amassing yet more boys IMO. A painboy is pretty good for bikes as well (mainly T1 then of course) since there are a lot of D2 weapons in the game and that 6+++ actually helps mitigate those losses fairly often.
But usually a painboy and KFF help protect the boyz squads that you aren't da jumping that turn so they still have their uses
Eh, I have eliminated the biker painboy. A 6+++ adds almost no survivability to them and is not worth spending over 100 points on.
I think the reason why KFFs see little play right now is because people are putting all their boyz in the tellyporta or are hiding them out of LOS until they can jump them.
Me too (well, I never thought he was worth it). That's what I meant by mainly T1 since you can simply place some bikes near a normal painboy and he'll help mitigate a potential alpha strike on those bikes somewhat but after that he's squarely back on boyz duty.
Do people who play green tide put all their stuff in deep strike ? It’s so... CP expensive. I’d rather take something that infiltrates for free if that was my game plan.
Seems like the KFF / painboy is showing up a lot though in current top play. Simon Priddis, Stormboy legend, had both as well.
Anthony birdsong rather crazily only had mad dok. It looks like he took a mix of clan boys though, unless he secretly went mono culture.
When I’m playing green tide I’d save most of the cp for auto passing morale and bringing a unit back on turn 2 but I will usually deepstrike 1 unit of boys
If possible the best outcome is
Da jump 30 boys turn 1
Some of those boys survive turn 1
Turn 2
Bring the boys back at full strength
Deepstrike boys from reserve
Da jump 3rd boys unit
That’s 90 fresh boys charging which will ruin almost anything
Does anyone actually play boyz as DS just for that 6++ / 6+++?
If I run boyz I simply go for 3 x 30 Evil Sunz and call it a day with Grot filling my DS battalion(s) and / or brigade.
I'd rather have that 8" charge after jumping / tellyporting and have the ability to gain board control quick.
Tellyporting or running depends heavily on my opponent, if he has an aggressive CC list or 12" anti deepstrike shenigans I might deploy all 90, if I face lists where I can clear screening easy until turn 2-3 and get my 9" deepstriking or have to deal with TFC that deny my charge with the tremor shell strat I rather tellyport them. (Maybe place 1 mob near my KFF to bait him using the CP anyway and minimize losses.
The rare occasions I field 90 boys I have at least 20 CP because they eat as much CP as does my shooting, so tellyporting is no problem CP wise.
Without boys I had some success with only 9-13 CP but with them that's a no go. Except some fun game where I know I won't need much CP for tellyporting and maxing out the strats and output.
Grotrebel wrote: Does anyone actually play boyz as DS just for that 6++ / 6+++?
If I run boyz I simply go for 3 x 30 Evil Sunz and call it a day with Grot filling my DS battalion(s) and / or brigade.
I'd rather have that 8" charge after jumping / tellyporting and have the ability to gain board control quick.
I was thinking about dedicating all of my ard' boys over as DeffSkulls They're all shoota boys. Park those in terrain near a Dok and some grots.
I'm not a fan of boys on foot being Evil Sunz just to game the ability. Sure you can do it. Doesn't excite me.
I'm going to try and run a 6 man squad of kanz just to see if I can get them to do anything. Anyone have any tips to mitigate morale losses? Right now I'm thinking I'll keep them close to a warboss, pray I don't roll any 3's, and use a mek or big mek to repair any that survive.
Grotrebel wrote: Does anyone actually play boyz as DS just for that 6++ / 6+++?
If I run boyz I simply go for 3 x 30 Evil Sunz and call it a day with Grot filling my DS battalion(s) and / or brigade.
I'd rather have that 8" charge after jumping / tellyporting and have the ability to gain board control quick.
Tellyporting or running depends heavily on my opponent, if he has an aggressive CC list or 12" anti deepstrike shenigans I might deploy all 90, if I face lists where I can clear screening easy until turn 2-3 and get my 9" deepstriking or have to deal with TFC that deny my charge with the tremor shell strat I rather tellyport them. (Maybe place 1 mob near my KFF to bait him using the CP anyway and minimize losses.
The rare occasions I field 90 boys I have at least 20 CP because they eat as much CP as does my shooting, so tellyporting is no problem CP wise.
Without boys I had some success with only 9-13 CP but with them that's a no go. Except some fun game where I know I won't need much CP for tellyporting and maxing out the strats and output.
27th at LVO played with some.
I do as well. But I also use my boys as a way to clog up the center of my board. I don't generally just deep strike and charge (although DS boys can do it too about 58% of the time). I also give em a couple of rockets to maximize my DS rerolls.
If DS -> Charge is all you literally do with boys, I guess ES is really the only option. I think you can use them differently to some positive effect, though.
DrGiggles wrote: I'm going to try and run a 6 man squad of kanz just to see if I can get them to do anything. Anyone have any tips to mitigate morale losses? Right now I'm thinking I'll keep them close to a warboss, pray I don't roll any 3's, and use a mek or big mek to repair any that survive.
thats really all you can do. The boss heavily reduces the leadership issue but thats a hefty tax to mitigate a mediocre unit's morale problem. And his presence will probably draw even more fire as once the kans are out of the way he can be targeted too. I plan to revisit this when we get PA assuming we get the same "not a warlord but gets a trait anyway" stratagem everyone else is getting. Giving a KFF Mek the "Follow Me Ladz!" strat would help that a lot, but if hes actually your warlord then no Big Killa SSAG and DEFINITELY will draw fire then lol
If we get that, then technically for free (follow me ladz gives you a cp) we can give a Bigmek that we already want over there for repairs the morale mitigation ability. And to add to his value, add some boyz over there to protect and lead.
An alternative would be to run the Kanz in a Snakebitez Detachment and give a KFF Mek the Surly as a Squiggoth Warlord Trait while he hides in the middle of them. But, as mentioned, that's a lot of investment to make a mediocre unit slightly less mediocre.
The standard boss loadout is 80pts.
Really all you can shave is if you give him a Bigchoppa instead of a PK he'd be 74pts. Thats assuming you even have a model for him with one (only reason i never run one, aint got one lol)
If we get that "give a Trait to not your Warlord" thing, then including a Snakebite Spearhead with a KFF Mek (or MA Mek with KFF, if you want more durability) and giving him the Surly as a Squiggoth trait might be viable for bringing Kanz along.
flandarz wrote: If we get that "give a Trait to not your Warlord" thing, then including a Snakebite Spearhead with a KFF Mek (or MA Mek with KFF, if you want more durability) and giving him the Surly as a Squiggoth trait might be viable for bringing Kanz along.
It would be pretty sick if we got that. We could make a bike Bad Moons boss with a 4+ invul with Da Killa Klaw who doesn't give up a warlord VP.
Extra WT would be sweet but if we only get one iteration of it I'd rather have the one where you put 2 WTs on your warlord rather than spreading them out. That's probably not as good as having a "warlord" who doesn't give up slay the warlord/kingslayer but super buffed characters is exactly what I want out of Orks.
Barring any of the new PA stuff being really good? (I assume we get a WT per clan)
But yeah, most likely. Which is really good but maybe not all that fun IMO, it's just the same tactic we've been using but slightly better. It doesn't really change how we're going to play the army I think..
Sounds like salty rumors saying we are getting a wolf vs ork box set with ghaz and mega nobs vs Ragnar and intercessors....
Which means ghaz and Ragnar will be boxset locked for 6 months like jain zar and drahzar were.
And considering the lore today of Ragnar strike team going to attack ghaz and his inner circle it gives the impression this is an elite force vs elite force story....
Salty rumors and all but we’ve been hearing about this suppose boxset rumor for a bit.
It doesn't sound all that crazy but the rumours are literally based on some dude posting that info in a facebook post, and he seems to not be some known person in regards to leaks prior to this.
Could be right, could be wrong. Hopefully we actually get a full reveal on monday and it's not yet another tease
PiñaColada wrote: It doesn't sound all that crazy but the rumours are literally based on some dude posting that info in a facebook post, and he seems to not be some known person in regards to leaks prior to this.
Could be right, could be wrong. Hopefully we actually get a full reveal on monday and it's not yet another tease
as far as I recall the ghaz vs space wolves box set rumors was months ago too Before our codex dropped. This was before we even Knew about PA ghaz vs space wolves. Could be coincidence we shall find out soon.
theres been orks vs space wolves rumors for over a year. I dont see why they would put out a box for this particular PA when the others didnt get one (minus the first one)
Also even if they gave us the multi-warlord trait i doubt i'd ever use it (unless i can do it on Ghaz). None of our HQs would really benefit from that without having the same issue as before, once they see melee they just go splat.
Technically giving the SSAG opportunistic would be nice but its range makes that kinda pointless. Generally any character that could get that close is going to get a LOT closer and then charge anyway.
1) It's pretty likely that the rumored "new unit" is just wulfen, the match the description of the leaker
2) If it is a new unit, the secondary market will be flooded with MANz sprues because all the marine players will be buying the box. I'm for sure not going to be salty about finally getting 10 MANz +2 MA big meks (+ crapton of conversion bits) for cheap.
Considering the pricepoint of Blood of the Phoenix it's quite possible the market won't be flooded with anything from this box. If it's truly Ghaz&Makari +MANZ vs PriRagnar & Wulfen then I'm not sure how well it'll sell.
I'm sure all new characters will be really cool but it might be too soon for GW to course correct from the heinous BotP price and from what I've heard those things didn't sell nearly as well as expected. (I guess it also depends on amount of MANZ and Wulfen in the box)
Haha yeah if the box rumour is true I'm most excited about idea of getting those MAN sprues for cheap Been hoping for 10 MAN unit for long time but price of models has kept me from it.
Jidmah wrote: 1) It's pretty likely that the rumored "new unit" is just wulfen, the match the description of the leaker
2) If it is a new unit, the secondary market will be flooded with MANz sprues because all the marine players will be buying the box. I'm for sure not going to be salty about finally getting 10 MANz +2 MA big meks (+ crapton of conversion bits) for cheap.
I wouldn't. Literally just putting on the finishing touches of a 9 man unit!
Jidmah wrote: 1) It's pretty likely that the rumored "new unit" is just wulfen, the match the description of the leaker
2) If it is a new unit, the secondary market will be flooded with MANz sprues because all the marine players will be buying the box. I'm for sure not going to be salty about finally getting 10 MANz +2 MA big meks (+ crapton of conversion bits) for cheap.
I wouldn't. Literally just putting on the finishing touches of a 9 man unit!
This is such a weird argument. Nobody would be disappointed for cheap(er) MANZ flooding the market. But if they updated the sculpt the market would be flooded with updated MANZ instead. I don’t know about you guys, but I like new models, as lovely as current MANZ are.
There is always something better than what you have.
Getting a box with relatively new MANz inside is still way better then getting yet another box with warbikers, kanz or deff dreads.
Getting a new Thrakka (and Makari!) already is way more than what most would have expected at the beginning of the year.
Now let's hope someone gave the book as much love as they did for other xenos factions, guard or the chaos legions.
I'm still upset that when Ghaz was mentioned in the deathwatch codex running around with a bunch of skarboys that we didn't really get that unit.
My dream is still a skarboys/'ardboys kit (which since he's cleary using those boyz should make sense in a kit such as this). Just give them either part of a nob statline (either S5 or 4+ armor) and give us more elite troops.
S5 boyz aren't terrible either from my experience, it's just that the whole "running boyz up the board"-thing doesn't work, which kind of throws a wrench into the whole goff idea.
Of course, that's what I meant by that we didn't "really get that unit". I should've specified but it just seemed like such an opportunity to update the boys without trying to invalidate hundreds of models.
S5 boyz are alright but the fact that they're clan locked to Goffs makes them a no-go for me. Just having the option of buying them for 8-9 points each (and a fresh new kit) would perfect IMO.
PiñaColada wrote: Of course, that's what I meant by that we didn't "really get that unit". I should've specified but it just seemed like such an opportunity to update the boys without trying to invalidate hundreds of models.
S5 boyz are alright but the fact that they're clan locked to Goffs makes them a no-go for me. Just having the option of buying them for 8-9 points each (and a fresh new kit) would perfect IMO.
That would take away from goffs though making that clan even less relevant
I don't know if I feel like burna boyz and kommandos are relevant for the comparison but I could see a unit slotting in between basic boys an nobz personally. Nobs would still be both S5 and with a 4+ and retain weapon options, skarboys would simply be +1S boys (and 'ardboys 4+ save boys)
Tneva, this was before we got the ork codex so I didn't know about the strat back then obviously. Even now, I would gladly see goffs get something else remove the stratagem option of getting skar/'ardboys in favor of a new datasheet.
I used to think that some improvements to the culture and some decent stratagems might make goff viable, but after my recent game against the PA-improved World Eaters, I've come to the conclusion that melee armies (and therfore goffs) are just not meant to be in 8th.
I tabled the poor sod in T2 with my buggy list and feel bad about it.
PiñaColada wrote: I don't know if I feel like burna boyz and kommandos are relevant for the comparison but I could see a unit slotting in between basic boys an nobz personally. Nobs would still be both S5 and with a 4+ and retain weapon options, skarboys would simply be +1S boys (and 'ardboys 4+ save boys)
Tneva, this was before we got the ork codex so I didn't know about the strat back then obviously. Even now, I would gladly see goffs get something else remove the stratagem option of getting skar/'ardboys in favor of a new datasheet.
One problem with that is that 8th edition seems to lack the 0-1, 0-2 limit on unit choices and for something like scar boys I would be in favor of a built in limit on the number of those units unless there was a unit that unlocked them as a choice above that limit.
I think a CC oriented army could work, as long as the CC units were cost effective, or there was some way to deny your opponent the ability to Fall-Back.
So, I'd give Goffs a +1 S sub-Faction Trait, and change the Skar Boyz Strat to be pay 1-2 CP and target enemy unit cannot Fall-Back. That'd be enough to make Goffs a viable choice.
Jidmah wrote: You can have skarboyz from a stratagem though?
S5 boyz aren't terrible either from my experience, it's just that the whole "running boyz up the board"-thing doesn't work, which kind of throws a wrench into the whole goff idea.
As a sort of aside to clans being useful.
If we get a build your own clan trait that gives plus 1 charge, do we think ES will go extinct?
I guess it sort of depends what other clan traits would be up for grabs/which new ones they'd introduce. You could start to make some really strong boyz hordes if you got to combine +1 charge with a 6++ or extra hits on 6's (they wouldn't be goffs so yo couldn't "skarboyz" them right)?
PiñaColada wrote: I guess it sort of depends what other clan traits would be up for grabs/which new ones they'd introduce. You could start to make some really strong boyz hordes if you got to combine +1 charge with a 6++ or extra hits on 6's (they wouldn't be goffs so yo couldn't "skarboyz" them right)?
I’ll wager there will be at least one good combat trait, be it lucky ( only hit and wound, not damage) or a defensive buff like you stated.
It just sounds like that entire clans purpose in competitive lists is solely based on that bonus charge and nothing else and I would be shocked if +1 charge wasn’t in play. (ES will be unique as they get movement advance and charge).
Depending on how they sliced it, the DS re-rolls and +1 charge would be pretty great. If they fluffed them as "kustom waaaghs" that worked like successor chapters (so kept access to the parent strats/relics/etc.), you might be able to get the Scarboyz, but not if they're klans. That would let you roll up as psuedo-DS or FB and get access to shooting twice by being BM successors, though, which would probably be where the power was.
I'm just hoping for something that works with grots. I've got 20 kanz on my desk, and I'd love a reason to finish converting them.
Kanz getting something would be my #1 wish, honestly I don't think it'd be crazy just giving them 'ere we go and access to clan kulturs. The grots in the kanz are cowards but they also believe themselves to be invincible until one of their own dies so giving them 'ere we go doesn't seem all that far fetched. They often go on that "maiden voyage rampage" on a bunch of their former ork oppressors so they aren't afraid of getting stuck in.
They'd still have gak morale and wouldn't be able to be deepstruck due to no ork stratagems and also still just WS5+.
Trimarius wrote: Depending on how they sliced it, the DS re-rolls and +1 charge would be pretty great. If they fluffed them as "kustom waaaghs" that worked like successor chapters (so kept access to the parent strats/relics/etc.), you might be able to get the Scarboyz, but not if they're klans. That would let you roll up as psuedo-DS or FB and get access to shooting twice by being BM successors, though, which would probably be where the power would be.
You’re definitely right. Lucky + something seems to be where the custom chapters have gone for Eldar and SM. I don’t know if DS will be supplanted because they have super lucky and a 6++ ( really useful on a lot of our models), but I could see certain units preferring limited lucky if they got something else, like +1 charge.
I don’t think it’ll be successor. There’s no real fluff reason behind it like there is with SM, and I don’t think anyone else has gotten it.
Jidmah wrote: I think AAE didn't mean updated MANz, but rather a new/updated unit instead of MANz.
Sorry I should've been clearer - what I'd really like to see is a new/upgrade Sprue for Meganobz to turn them into Bullyboyz, or just new Bullyboyz models. I want Ghazzy's personal guard to be a specific, new unit. Now that'd be cool IMO
PiñaColada wrote: Of course, that's what I meant by that we didn't "really get that unit". I should've specified but it just seemed like such an opportunity to update the boys without trying to invalidate hundreds of models.
S5 boyz are alright but the fact that they're clan locked to Goffs makes them a no-go for me. Just having the option of buying them for 8-9 points each (and a fresh new kit) would perfect IMO.
That would take away from goffs though making that clan even less relevant
So surely the answer is to give something to Goffs to make them more relevant? They're not relevant anyway. Even with the specific strat.
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tneva82 wrote: Expecting updated MAN'z AND Ghaz...that's greedy. Orks are orks and not marines.
Besides there's about half a dozen kits minimum I would rather see redone than MAN's.
I don't disagree but how is it greedy to expect the same as Marines?
I'd rather they bring back the Big Mek with KFF. The fact we don't have a generic Big Mek choice because of that no model no rule nonsense is just embarrassing. If they do update the MANZ set, a MAWB option better be there.
Yeah, its why I haven't started fielding him yet, because I just know that people are going to ask me to see his stats, even though logically it would be the exact same as the Big Mek with SAG, just with a KFF instead of SAG.
logic would dictate he's literally the KFF version of the SSAG
No options (relics aside of course) Choppa (its on the model for the KFF variant at least) No gun (not even slugga) as the SAG/KFF took its slot Same exact statline and rules.
Anybody who tries to pull that crap to keep you from using a footmek KFF is just trying to be a prick.
I dont expect a new model for it but i do expect them to say something about it in the PA, since like i said its in the CA19 so it has to exist.
Vineheart01 wrote: logic would dictate he's literally the KFF version of the SSAG
No options (relics aside of course)
Choppa (its on the model for the KFF variant at least)
No gun (not even slugga) as the SAG/KFF took its slot
Same exact statline and rules.
Anybody who tries to pull that crap to keep you from using a footmek KFF is just trying to be a prick.
I dont expect a new model for it but i do expect them to say something about it in the PA, since like i said its in the CA19 so it has to exist.
Since when is GW logical?
I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for you to have a datasheet for a model you're using. While most people I know wouldn't have an issue with it, it's something that you should still ask about.
Vineheart01 wrote: logic would dictate he's literally the KFF version of the SSAG
No options (relics aside of course)
Choppa (its on the model for the KFF variant at least)
No gun (not even slugga) as the SAG/KFF took its slot
Same exact statline and rules.
Anybody who tries to pull that crap to keep you from using a footmek KFF is just trying to be a prick.
I dont expect a new model for it but i do expect them to say something about it in the PA, since like i said its in the CA19 so it has to exist.
Since when is GW logical?
I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for you to have a datasheet for a model you're using. While most people I know wouldn't have an issue with it, it's something that you should still ask about.
Yea I agree with this, it'd be nice to know if the KFFMek has any options to take and what they are, if any.
its just yet another definitive proof that GW favors imperium of any flavor. Because Space Wolves are one of the least popular imperial armies. Not the least but really damn low.
Everyone in my area like the models but HATE their lore so nobody plays them. Except 1 guy who isnt a lore person in the slightest. The best way to describe Space Wolves is "My First DnD Character" where rules dont apply to you because youre just badass like that.
Vineheart01 wrote: logic would dictate he's literally the KFF version of the SSAG
No options (relics aside of course)
Choppa (its on the model for the KFF variant at least)
No gun (not even slugga) as the SAG/KFF took its slot
Same exact statline and rules.
Anybody who tries to pull that crap to keep you from using a footmek KFF is just trying to be a prick.
I dont expect a new model for it but i do expect them to say something about it in the PA, since like i said its in the CA19 so it has to exist.
A new model would be amazing, but yeah, this is probably right.
I'd love for him to retain the ability to take kombi weapons at least. Tossing on a rokkit on a DS Big Mek is actually kind of nice. can try to contribute instead of just picking his nose.
Vineheart01 wrote: logic would dictate he's literally the KFF version of the SSAG
No options (relics aside of course)
Choppa (its on the model for the KFF variant at least)
No gun (not even slugga) as the SAG/KFF took its slot
Same exact statline and rules.
Anybody who tries to pull that crap to keep you from using a footmek KFF is just trying to be a prick.
I dont expect a new model for it but i do expect them to say something about it in the PA, since like i said its in the CA19 so it has to exist.
A new model would be amazing, but yeah, this is probably right.
I'd love for him to retain the ability to take kombi weapons at least. Tossing on a rokkit on a DS Big Mek is actually kind of nice. can try to contribute instead of just picking his nose.
I prefer a KMB to get most out of the DS trait and it gets an additional AP on top. And i have a converted model with this loadout which i use for non-tournament games.
Vineheart01 wrote: Honestly the PA books should have had a clash cover picture between the factions inside.
I have a few Tyranid and Guard friends that are annoyed their book doesnt have their faction on it lol
This!
All my armies had the luck to get some Marines on their cover.
Some reason i didn`t buy the limited Ork codex. Stupid Tau in the center of the cover blasting a poor boy? No thanks.
Agree, I also use the KMB onf the KFF mek for deff skull shenanigans. I even have an original GW KMB arm on one of them, from the "Big Mek with KMB" that got released at the same time as the KFF mek and the metal SAG.
When it was Craftworlds and Drukhari getting the PA treatment, it was a whole week of new rules, model reveals, strats etc. The Orks PA has been total trash. Makari revealed 6 months ago it feels like then nothing. Big effing whoop.
Seriously, if you start this whiny gak again, I'm going to start dreadsocking people. Can't we have a single release without ork player acting like toddlers?
Next week will be the week for rule releases as it was for every other PA.
I want to know what Dreadsocking is but yea we can wait until Monday guys. Hopefully the wait will be worth it. Remember we have at least 1 maybe 2 rumour engine pics that look very Orky and aren’t related to Ghaz or Makari. There was also a rumour that we’d get more after PA.
Monday is going to be awesome for me regardless - I find out the sex of my next child as well as what goodies we get for PA
A "dreadsock" refers to putting a metal deff dread in a sock to use as a weapon If you lack the proper model, you can also build a kan flail by using three metal killa kanz in a similar fashion
The she-ork tends to intervene on such shenanigans. My wive vetoed my suggestion for our daughter's middle name, too.
I wonder why... "Hulk" would have been very fitting
"Look at little Zhadsnark, he/she's so fast and just running around all over the place!" See, it works either way! (On a slightly more serious note, congrats AAE)
I’m playing a tourney that uses ETC rules in the coming weeks. What models or units are best for ETC? I’m used to ICT but don’t really have much time to get games in before the tourney.
I assume the ETC tournament is running CA2019 missions?
The main difference IMO is that mobility and the ability to contest backfield objectives is worth much more in EW/Maelstrom than in ITC, while aiming to table your opponent isn't going to guarantee a victory at all. Best give all the missions that are going to be played there a good read - the little details make the difference. In general, CA2019 missions seem to be designed to punish stationary castles and skew lists.
As for ork specifics, they key to winning from my experience is hiding gretchin out of sight on objectives while making sure that your opponent can't leave their deployment zone. Take out everything with high mobility as a priority, followed by everything with the means to put out a high number of shots at long range. In my games against competitive armies, I usually have lost the vast majority of my army by turn 3, but my opponent is then left with nothing but slow units that lack the means to wipe out the gretchin scattered across objectives. I have little experience on going full green tide though, as I hate that play style. I usually run dakka orks or buggies.
My current list is a triple battalion with 2x30 boys, 70 grots, lootas, tank bustas, flash gitz, SSAG, smasha guns and characters. The thing I’m finding is exactly what you’re saying. It’s hard to put pressure on back field objectives even with da jump or deepstriking.
I’ve also tried stormboys in big units but they become target priority number one for the opponents and they’re really hard to hide. Also gave meganobs a shot.
Just hard to get the balance right.
Lootas, tank bustas, smasha guns AND flash gits? That's almost enuff dakka! In general, you should probably put some less points into shooting and more into bodies and flexibility.
Deep striking MANz are pretty good in EW/maelstrom - you deep strike them onto an objective that is not well defended, destroy whatever is on it and then keep it for yourself. Works especially well with objectives in cover, as 1+ armor MANz are pretty difficult to shift.
Also, don't worry too much about your opponent grinding trough your boyz/storm boyz. Their main objective is keeping your opponent in his deployment zone for the first three turns, and there are little to no VP gained from killing them - unlike in ITC.
I need some help against marines.
My main opponent has begun running imperial fists primaris with a castle of six dakka centurions in cover, usually deployed near the center of the board.
He has the special apothecary with them who can heal twice per turn, as well as a librarian who can heal.
He keeps a chaplain dread nearby for litanies as well as a special character (I forget the name) who hands out buffs as well.
Between all of these buffs, plus devastator protocols, plus stratagems (trans human, auspex scan, etc.) I cant seem to kill a single one of these guys, nor can I afford to ignore them, as they casually overkill two or three of my units per turn.
He also brings an abundance of stalker bolt rifles for targeting characters, as well as jumpack troops for deep strike shenanigans, and the usual MSU primaris squads for objective grabbing and deep strike mitigation.
All of these other threats are dealt with easily, but man, that castle...
Any wisdom/kunnin from you lot is greatly appreciated.
Our games are usually 2000 points and I run mono clan freebootaz.
As an aside, I have been playing since 2003 and have amassed over 10,000 points of orks,
so let’s just assume I have plenty of everything to choose from for list building.
Except meganobz.
Never could get the hang of mega nobz...or Thursdays.
Chaos Legionnaire wrote: I need some help against marines.
My main opponent has begun running imperial fists primaris with a castle of six dakka centurions in cover, usually deployed near the center of the board.
He has the special apothecary with them who can heal twice per turn, as well as a librarian who can heal.
He keeps a chaplain dread nearby for litanies as well as a special character (I forget the name) who hands out buffs as well.
Between all of these buffs, plus devastator protocols, plus stratagems (trans human, auspex scan, etc.) I cant seem to kill a single one of these guys, nor can I afford to ignore them, as they casually overkill two or three of my units per turn.
He also brings an abundance of stalker bolt rifles for targeting characters, as well as jumpack troops for deep strike shenanigans, and the usual MSU primaris squads for objective grabbing and deep strike mitigation.
All of these other threats are dealt with easily, but man, that castle...
Any wisdom/kunnin from you lot is greatly appreciated.
Our games are usually 2000 points and I run mono clan freebootaz.
Well, to start, he can only get Dev Doctrine for one turn now. That should help.
IIRC, Freebootaz have a Strat to drop rocks on their heads for 3cp. Works best if they are in multiple units. Even if not, you get a chance to get d3 Mortal per unit and character in the area of effect. The closer they cluster, the more units affected :-)
Vineheart01 wrote: that strat is pretty useless.
People dont even use the better version of it (which costs the same btw) because its so swingy.
Which better version is that?
As OP has 3 battalions he might not mind spending a few CP on this strat though. Never worked for me, but every NW counts (of it isn't healed right away).
There's a lot of problems with it. First, you have to roll a d3 to see how many areas you can put down. Then you have a roll a d6 for each unit within 6" of one of those areas and you deal 1d3 MWs only if you roll a 5+ (6+ for a character). And for this you spend 3 CP (as much as Unstoppable Green Tide). Even if they bunch up, you have pretty good chance of whiffing the whole thing, but assuming you even make all the rolls for it, it just isn't much damage for 3CP. On average, each Primaris unit that you successfully roll against is gonna lose a single model.
Vineheart01 wrote: that strat is pretty useless.
People dont even use the better version of it (which costs the same btw) because its so swingy.
Which better version is that?
As OP has 3 battalions he might not mind spending a few CP on this strat though. Never worked for me, but every NW counts (of it isn't healed right away).
uh, literally any other form of that bombardment ability?
Orks are the only one that it happens on a 5+/6+. Every other similar effect works on a 4+/5+ to cause mortal wounds (nonchar/character). And it still costs the same.
I ran a campaign where I could one krooza broadside for each objective I held. Despite firing of whopping twelve of them (so about 30 CP), I killed a total of three primaris and one thunderfire cannon. Just don't use it.
Looks like the gun is a quad big shoota instead of a twin big shoota, although I imagine it's going to be a relic version. So like 8 shots with AP-1 and D2.
He does look redemptor sized in that trailer though, which makes me a happy little grot
PiñaColada wrote: Looks like the gun is a quad big shoota instead of a twin big shoota, although I imagine it's going to be a relic version. So like 8 shots with AP-1 and D2.
He does look redemptor sized in that trailer though, which makes me a happy little grot
Yeah, I do hope it gets a better profile than the Twin Big Shoota, 12x1 damage shots won't do much without AP — Thraka deserves better. Aint no self-respektin Boss gonna let a buncha flashgitz have snazzier shootas
great Orkz think alike!
