Also, GW could get real wonky with multiple instances of a powerful ork warlord such as Ghaz. If one is killed (which seems to be indicated in that trailer) then that might not be the end of him
Jidmah wrote: Lootas, tank bustas, smasha guns AND flash gits? That's almost enuff dakka! In general, you should probably put some less points into shooting and more into bodies and flexibility.
Deep striking MANz are pretty good in EW/maelstrom - you deep strike them onto an objective that is not well defended, destroy whatever is on it and then keep it for yourself. Works especially well with objectives in cover, as 1+ armor MANz are pretty difficult to shift.
Also, don't worry too much about your opponent grinding trough your boyz/storm boyz. Their main objective is keeping your opponent in his deployment zone for the first three turns, and there are little to no VP gained from killing them - unlike in ITC.
Lots of dakka!! The list worked really well in ITC as, depending on the opponent, I used to put quite a bit in deepstrike and drop units in then blow stuff up. I’ve few games lined up next week so let’s see how the practice goes. First game, no flash gitz and trying the stormboys with warboss on bike again.
Second game I’ll try meganobs again. Hard to get the balance right.
hypothetical of course, but they are making it sound like either Ghaz has a way to copy himself or rise again based on what weve heard and then that trailor. They make it sound like the Wolf Lord succeeded in killing Ghaz before and is about to do it again.
I hope his new quad-gun is actually good and not just a 12shot bigshoota.... bigshootas suck theyre probably a contender for worst gun in the codex and they keep forcing us to take more.
Maybe he looted a storm cannon array from all the freshly discarded Iron Hands Leviathans. One can dream right?
There was that bit in the lore about Ghazghkull being sighted in multiple places at the same time across entire sectors. I thought it was fancy tellyporta tek, but maybe the git figured out how to clone himself. That would solve the problem with the old "kill the Ork Warlord and his WAAAGH will fall apart" strategy.
Or maybe Gork and Mork made Ghazgkhull a Perpetual
As cool as that looks, i could just see that as an assault 12 Big shoota or something, GW really likes to give Ork characters crappy gun options for the most part, barring outliers like the SSAG, it's criminal that despite Warbosses being known for hoarding the lion's share of loot that they can't even have snazzguns. gitfinders or something.
Yeah, I wouldn't hold your breath on a good ranged option in Ghaz. For Orkz, you either have a decent CC option OR a decent gun (and sometimes you don't get either). We'll never get a character with both.
Vineheart01 wrote: hypothetical of course, but they are making it sound like either Ghaz has a way to copy himself or rise again based on what weve heard and then that trailor. They make it sound like the Wolf Lord succeeded in killing Ghaz before and is about to do it again.
I hope his new quad-gun is actually good and not just a 12shot bigshoota.... bigshootas suck theyre probably a contender for worst gun in the codex and they keep forcing us to take more.
He said he swore to kill "Thraka" before. Thraka just means leader or warboss in the Ork language. So, he killed a warboss, not the Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka.
Vineheart01 wrote: that strat is pretty useless.
People dont even use the better version of it (which costs the same btw) because its so swingy.
Accepted. But given the problem seemingly ignores normal wounds and shoots off multiple units per turn, is there _another_ option to just shaking hands and ‘gg’? The 3cp you use _could_ be spent on other strats, but which ones would do damage given the op’s description of the problem?
Chaos Legionnaire wrote: I need some help against marines.
My main opponent has begun running imperial fists primaris with a castle of six dakka centurions in cover, usually deployed near the center of the board.
He has the special apothecary with them who can heal twice per turn, as well as a librarian who can heal.
He keeps a chaplain dread nearby for litanies as well as a special character (I forget the name) who hands out buffs as well.
Between all of these buffs, plus devastator protocols, plus stratagems (trans human, auspex scan, etc.) I cant seem to kill a single one of these guys, nor can I afford to ignore them, as they casually overkill two or three of my units per turn.
He also brings an abundance of stalker bolt rifles for targeting characters, as well as jumpack troops for deep strike shenanigans, and the usual MSU primaris squads for objective grabbing and deep strike mitigation.
All of these other threats are dealt with easily, but man, that castle...
Any wisdom/kunnin from you lot is greatly appreciated.
Our games are usually 2000 points and I run mono clan freebootaz.
As an aside, I have been playing since 2003 and have amassed over 10,000 points of orks,
so let’s just assume I have plenty of everything to choose from for list building.
Except meganobz.
Never could get the hang of mega nobz...or Thursdays.
There is no one way of dealing with them unfortunately, double shooting Lootas, ssag, smasha guns will do good work, but you must focus fire everything at them until they're gone. That in itself is tricky. On the plus side, once they're gone, all those support characters are effectively wasted points.
Consider changing klans, or souping a det of klans to maximise effectiveness. Deathskulls sag, and any unit with kmbs or rokkits are great for stuff like this, really maximise your hard hitting effectiveness.
I'd also consider a burna bommer. Dropping bombs for mortal wounds is useful, as is the cover ignoring skorcha missile, however, it's fiery death can be utilised too. Ensure that you position it's final movement within 6" of the target unit for when it gets blown out of the sky for a 50% chance of 3 flat mortal wounds. Save a cp for that.
How do people feel about manz? In the past I’ve always took boys over them but there’s allot of chat about them atm and they seem a good choice to counter the ridiculous amount of st4 shooting that marines of all flavours can put out,
If you're running MANZ then a painboy is a pretty good investment in my experience. Maybe it's more prevalent in my meta but being one-shotted by thunderhammers or repulsor executioners is no fun. IG with the hammer of sundrance and full payload manticores are also a pain (but then the save are better at least).
I really want to like MANZ but I really wish they'd be T5, as it'd help mitigate some of those things but also plenty of more common weaponry.
Plenty of people are putting them to good use but I think that's often plonking them down in cover on some objective which makes them durable but very static
Vineheart01 wrote: that strat is pretty useless.
People dont even use the better version of it (which costs the same btw) because its so swingy.
Accepted. But given the problem seemingly ignores normal wounds and shoots off multiple units per turn, is there _another_ option to just shaking hands and ‘gg’? The 3cp you use _could_ be spent on other strats, but which ones would do damage given the op’s description of the problem?
Use weird boyz/warpheads. I'm currently experimenting with two in my buggy lists just so I can smite some of those hard-ass units out of the way. Besides that, you can just ram them with a random vehicle for mortal wounds.
MANz have a fair amount of durability, especially backed by a KFF and/or a Painboy, but they fall short on damage output for the price you put into them. And, unfortunately, the current state of the game values killing potential over survivability. They can be useful for holding objectives, particularly in cover, but don't expect much more out of them.
The one time I ran a MANZ list was 5th, if I recall it was 30 MANZ in 3 Battle wagons and it completely wrecked the other army, marines or something. Sadly it was an unintentional crushing of a new player. Poor fella had only played a few games prior to that. Wasn't my army either I didn't tend to field that many MANZ at the time. I think the game went 3 turns.
Makes me wonder if there is a way to replicate that in 8th, in away where it wouldn't suck.
Not really.
MANz are cheaper than they were back then so it'd be easier to field that but problem is in 5th there wasnt as many weapons that were AP2, and unless it was AP1/2 they had their full 2+ save. On top of that, there werent many weapons that instakilled them at a high enough rate to get through 30 MANz so the 2W profile made a big difference.
In 8th even AP-1 is enough to chip through them, especially when a lot of AP-1 guns have stupid rate of fire right now. 2+ armor is nowhere near as valuable with the modifier armor value system.
So, really the delivery system is going to be key to get them stuck in most effectively. Seems like a good use of tellyporta. although mobs of 10 may be too many due to points and reserves restrictions? I might try 21, for points, and a Dok. Maybe try to coordinate that with a Jumped screen, something to open up a landing zone ahead of when the MANZ arrive. Have to make sure my MANZ aren't screened out. Might work but easily stopped by SM's I am sure.
It probably largely just depends what you face off against but yeah, MANZ are good but probably just a hair too expensive.
If PKs were more consistent this might be a different story. Seeing an entire 10 man squad warpathed bounce off of a 2 wound unit is depressing AF ( fun story from one of my games... although they did have -2 to hit with pk and an Eldar strat)
flandarz wrote: Yeah, MANz lack punch in CC AND ranged. In both cases, each MAN is gonna average less than 1 damage, even against optimal targets.
Edit: in short, don't bring MANz expecting them to kill things. Bring them for their durability.
I was wondering if you could somehow mesh in something like a Nob w/ Waaagh Banner to up their consistency, but that's another 75 points for sniper bait, and you somehow have to keep him in 6" when they try to charge. Blech.
I really hope PA gives something like a +1 to hit in CC strat... that might actually make MANz a ton scarier.
Orks could use a weapon option for nobz/bosses that isnt a kombi or mega expensive.
Kombiskorchas are technically strong, but at 17pts and such a short range its insanely difficult to justify it.
Kombi-rokkits are overpriced like regular rokkits, but on an expensive enough platform to really feel that overpricing.
Kustom Shootas just dont have the RoF to offset the lack of AP or strength.
I doubt we'd ever get one but it would be funny and fitting to get an Aggressor counterpart (that the right one i always get their names mixed up) where its just an absolute gakton of S4 attacks for the cost, but on a meganob platform so its slow and durable.
Arm-gattling gun and two shoulder-mounted gatling guns, still got a PK because ork.
Gruxz wrote: Awesome model, it's friggin huge and orky! But yeah that last pic looks a lot like a boxed set.
Yup!!!
Ragnar and 10 intercessors
Vs
Ghazskull and 5 nobs and 3 meganobs (plus Makari)
Pretty hopeful about ghazs 2 new weapons
Morks roar
And
Gorks klaw
Those should be at least better then his prior options...
But he’s going to be an expensive pointcost model...
Let's face it, it's going to look ridiculous if Ghazzy is 9 wounds with that stature. So we're back to the speculation I brought up a couple of weeks ago, how can they make a 10+ wounds Ghaz work?
It'll be interesting to see how they handle it for sure
PiñaColada wrote: Let's face it, it's going to look ridiculous if Ghazzy is 9 wounds with that stature. So we're back to the speculation I brought up a couple of weeks ago, how can they make a 10+ wounds Ghaz work?
It'll be interesting to see how they handle it for sure
Unless he always throws a 2+ save, has a 3+ invul or something, it won't work. He isn't going to be a leviathan dread lol.
He will be removed if an opponent wants him too.
So he better be 9 sadly, or somehow just not targetable even though he's above 10.
Again, yes, he'll be better at 9 wounds. But I really don't think he should be (due to size) or that GW will care enough about having him be competitive tier and keeping him there. I'll be shocked if he's at 9 wounds.
So T7 16W 2+/4++ and -1 damage and then a 5+FnP is what I'm hoping for.
In rgards to the boxset price, I assume that it's going to be the same as Blood of the Phoenix (sadly) so like 230 US dollars I think?
Given that he had his head ripped off and lived, they probably gave him the Girlyman treatment of "i didnt die yet" and comes back with extra wounds.
Unless they just flatout give him an exception rule to the 10+ wounds thing, there is no way you can make him 10+ wounds and balanced. Either hes too killable because he can be targeted, or he's unkillable and just walked right through EVERYTHING and we have an overpowered unit problem. Even if this guy has a ridiculous shooting protection of "all shooting attacks do 1 damage" he's going to die quick if he can be targeted, i guarantee it. People would dump their entire army on Girlyman if they could and not even think twice about it.
Given his size though....something tells me this guy is a LoW now. Which would be fitting, especially if they give him some mega stat boosts, but also slightly annoying.
also i wonder if theyre gonna update his Apoc datasheet in the process. The current one is dumb...a regular Nob is better than Ghaz in melee (yes i know its the theme of Apoc where characters are not beatsticks but HE should be an exception...)
PiñaColada wrote: Again, yes, he'll be better at 9 wounds. But I really don't think he should be (due to size) or that GW will care enough about having him be competitive tier and keeping him there. I'll be shocked if he's at 9 wounds.
So T7 16W 2+/4++ and -1 damage and then a 5+FnP is what I'm hoping for.
In rgards to the boxset price, I assume that it's going to be the same as Blood of the Phoenix (sadly) so like 230 US dollars I think?
He isn't bigger than a Mork / Gork. And this would probably push up north of 400 points.
Honestly, he might be Deff Dread size, which are only 8 wounds.
PiñaColada wrote: Let's face it, it's going to look ridiculous if Ghazzy is 9 wounds with that stature. So we're back to the speculation I brought up a couple of weeks ago, how can they make a 10+ wounds Ghaz work?
It'll be interesting to see how they handle it for sure
Only way is toughness 8, 16+wounds 2+, 4++, 5+++ plus Makari can eat 4+ mortal wounds because they are 1 unit.
At that point he is still dying turn 2-3 only because your eating up all your opponents anti tank... which we will happily grot shield away because ghaz is still an infantry unit!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
flandarz wrote: Even if he's 9+ Wounds, we still got Grotshields to keep him safe.
Ninja’d
This is the only way ghaz lives and eats your opponent anti tank...
The real question is ghaz mobile or a slow walking melee unit
Characters always have more wounds than they "should" though. Look at the 4 wound Makari model for crying out loud. Also, I think he's pretty close to a redemptor dreadnought in size, which are 13 wounds..
I have no issue if he's 350 points or so, just as long as he doesn't feel like a waste and is fun to wield. But that's just how I see it
Edit: If he goes beyond 10 wounds I'm pretty sure he'll be a monster and not infantry
flandarz wrote: Even if he's 9+ Wounds, we still got Grotshields to keep him safe.
I'm not sure this is true anymore He's *massive*. I would wager he's a monster and doesn't count as infantry, so no grot shields without some kind of exception.
Also means no more Da Jump, so chonky boy is probably walking or in the Tellyporta.
it would make sense to make him a Monster but man i hope not.
They could give him a rule where he can embarked "open topped" and count as 3-4 slots to offset part of the issue, but other is we wouldnt be able to have a Painboy follow him around. Which if i field him and painboys can heal him i am fielding a painboy FOR HIM ALONE lol.
Also im glad i didnt buy another meganob box yet. I have 7 meganobz, 5 metals and 2 plastics (3rd plastic became a Bigmek) and was trying to clear out my unpainted models before i bought more stuff and hey Ghaz's box comes with 3 meganobz? perfect! dont care bout the nobz but eh im splitting this box with someone anyway.
Not bad. From the teasers I was worried they were working more towards his armor being Ironjawz-like in its curvature. And we do see more curves here than typical in Ork armor, particularly Mega Armor, but they've segmented it enough that it still has an appropriately body, crude look to it.
Good model, might take on the challenge of making him not recognizably Ghaz someday, I'd certainly rather use this as a base for a MA Warboss over the AoS Megaboss.
What if Ghaz has two different stat lines depending on if you pose him for Morks Roar, or Gorks Klaw?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Eh...nevermind...I don't own a morkanaut or gorkanaut but I assumed they had different statlines, they appear the same though.
Vineheart01 wrote: Given that he had his head ripped off and lived, they probably gave him the Girlyman treatment of "i didnt die yet" and comes back with extra wounds.
Well his model is after the dok-operation, so i don`t think that will happen.
All the Primaris characters have new datasheets as well. Would be nice though.
Lord of War would be bad news because that would prevent tripple battalions but would give him a dread-naut similar statline i guess.
Better stay 9 LPHQ without Clanlock.
Diorama shot for scale. According the article, Thrakka can be assembled facing either left or right, one in a shooting pose and one in a striking pose, just like Mortarion.
His gun is a relic called mork's roar. his klaw is now calls gork's klaw, so it might be better than his current kustom klaw.
Imho 9 wounds is ok ish for his size, though up to 14 seems adequate.
As was said before LOW seems more fitting than hq choice now with that gorgeous model
I think what they will do with Ghaz is make him 9 wounds and give him a half damage mechanic like Abaddon. That way he still cant be targetted by shooting outside of stratagems and snipers and in melee he will be pretty tough vs those big damage melee weapons and thunder hammers. Its either that or they make him have more wounds and they add Bullyboyz as a strat that can intercept wounds like drones or make him untargetable like Cloud of Flies or whatever it is called for Deathguard aslong as Ghaz is behind that unit.
Im not really interested in his shooting profile even though I love his new gun model wise, too me I just wanna know what damage he can do with his Klaw, im praying it aint damage d6! Flat 4 or 5 would be what id love, not flat 6. Maybe min 3 on a D6 if you roll a 1 or 2.
What I really hope he gets is new abilities that help Orkz through auras, Orkz dont have many auras in regards to the majority of armies in 8th and something to help the ladz that isnt just advance and charge then a +1 attack when you charge would be great. Maybe have him add CPs like Calgar, Abaddon, Guiliman, etc in addition to his old abilities.
That massive Power Klaw deserves a deadly statline. It's a good candidate for the D6 w/ damage rolls of 1 or 2 counting as 3.
Maybe deals mortal wounds on 6's to-wound, or give it AP-5 Rending on 6's instead — you can comfortably fit a Primaris Marine in it lol.
I'm hoping he stays an HQ because I don't want to have to take a LOW detachment. He probably still has the <Infantry> keyword, but they could make him a <Monster> too — and yeah, I'm quite curious whether he'll still be able to fit in our transports.
deffrekka wrote: Im not really interested in his shooting profile even though I love his new gun model wise, too me I just wanna know what damage he can do with his Klaw, im praying it aint damage d6! Flat 4 or 5 wound be what id love, not flat 6. Maybe min 3 on a D6 if you roll a 1 or 2.
Haha, no way. Thrakka is not a knight! Most likely we will be looking at a something in the autocannon category, with S5-7, lots of shots and AP -1 or -2. If we're lucky it will be D2 instead of D1
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Khorzain wrote: That massive Power Klaw deserves a deadly statline. It's a good candidate for the D6 w/ damage rolls of 1 or 2 counting as 3.
Maybe deals mortal wounds on 6's to-wound, or give it AP-5 Rending on 6's instead — you can comfortably fit a Primaris Marine in it lol.
I really hope it gets two modes like the nauts do, I'd love to go sweeping away primaris with him.
Yeah looking at it, it screams high RoF more than damage to me. I still hope it's like 8-12 shots at S6 AP-1 D2 (more likely 12 shots at D1) but I can't imagine it being over D2.
Let's face it Ghaz is never going to be a shooting powerhouse, but with his old rules it was barely worth the effort to roll the dice. Hopefully this remedies that
deffrekka wrote: Im not really interested in his shooting profile even though I love his new gun model wise, too me I just wanna know what damage he can do with his Klaw, im praying it aint damage d6! Flat 4 or 5 wound be what id love, not flat 6. Maybe min 3 on a D6 if you roll a 1 or 2.
Haha, no way. Thrakka is not a knight! Most likely we will be looking at a something in the autocannon category, with S5-7, lots of shots and AP -1 or -2. If we're lucky it will be D2 instead of D1
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Khorzain wrote: That massive Power Klaw deserves a deadly statline. It's a good candidate for the D6 w/ damage rolls of 1 or 2 counting as 3.
Maybe deals mortal wounds on 6's to-wound, or give it AP-5 Rending on 6's instead — you can comfortably fit a Primaris Marine in it lol.
I really hope it gets two modes like the nauts do, I'd love to go sweeping away primaris with him.
I meant his melee profile not his gun. Flat damage 4 isnt a huge stretch, neither is d6 damage min 3.
It needs to be better than the Da Killa klaw. Ghaz would take the strongest klaw as his personal weapon.
I'm guessing no -1 hit penalty, flat 4, ap-4. If we're lucky, a sweeping option, so he has limited attacks against Vehicles (5 o so), but can swath through trash infantry like they aren't there.
The gun if we're lucky will be a Supa Shoota... doubt it'll be much better. But that alone would be a nice improvement.
His current klaw is pretty close to those stats so an additional AP and damage seem more than fair. I think it'd be cool if he just got extra attacks with his legs when he attacks to help out as a horde deterrent. Cawl has 2d6 mechadendrite attacks at S5 in addition to normal strikes and he isn't even a CC character..
acme2468 wrote: One thing that's a guarantee,His gun will have random number of shots, 4d3 or 4d6 perhaps
Oh god no.... dont jinx it haha!!
The one thing I hate so much is the damn randomness of our weapons. I had a game on Saturday against Scions and none of my Smasha Guns could hit or roll higher than a 5 against Taurox Primes... Until turn 3. I even ran a couple of Zzap Guns just for nostalgia and they are going back in the trash ahaha! Rolled str 11 for one, never hit. Other one couldnt get higher than str 7. Rokkits all the way for me! Usually my Smasha Guns are great but this weekend they were hot garbage.
Judging from the model, I'd say it'll either be 8 or 12 shots, probably S5 or 6, with AP -1 or 2, and 1 or 2 Damage. Because we're Orkz, I'd lean more towards the "not as good" side of things.
Vineheart01 wrote: thats really all i hope for in his shooting is enough of a bite to actually kill SOMETHING
6 bigshoota shots did absolutely nothing.
Even if its just a 6shot Supa Shoota, i'd be fine with that. Supa Shootas at least can do something.
What if Ghaz has two different stat lines depending on if you pose him for Morks Roar, or Gorks Klaw?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Eh...nevermind...I don't own a morkanaut or gorkanaut but I assumed they had different statlines, they appear the same though.
Morkanaut has 2 less Attacks but more wargear options and superior guns. His basic stats could be the same but he could lose A if posed for the gun but get a better shooting profile or something. I like the thought but I wouldn't count on it happening.
Weapon wise I think both weapons will get a minor boost in stats maybe +1 damage on the claw and double shots on the Shoota
My hopes for stats is that they stay pretty similar to what they are now, I don’t want him to be targetable and his stats and size are pretty already pretty similar to Robby G So I wouldn’t expect him to change much.
I don’t want him to go up in points which is already the biggest reason i don’t take him.
I’d like and expect his area effect to be improved.
PiñaColada wrote: Let's face it, it's going to look ridiculous if Ghazzy is 9 wounds with that stature. So we're back to the speculation I brought up a couple of weeks ago, how can they make a 10+ wounds Ghaz work?
It'll be interesting to see how they handle it for sure
Guilliman has 9 wounds with that stature as well, so I don't think he'll have 10+.
Vineheart01 wrote: thats really all i hope for in his shooting is enough of a bite to actually kill SOMETHING
6 bigshoota shots did absolutely nothing.
Even if its just a 6shot Supa Shoota, i'd be fine with that. Supa Shootas at least can do something.
I bet it will be a 12 shot big shoota
It's a named relic, so at the very least it might get the "mastercrafted" bonus of +1S -1AP.
His basic stats could be the same but he could lose A if posed for the gun but get a better shooting profile or something. I like the thought but I wouldn't count on it happening.
He is just posable, not changing his loadout. Mortarion works the very same well, having an extra head, arm and pistol so you can either have him with the scythe raised and the gun pointed down, or the gun up and the scythe pointed down. If you feel like doing silly stuff with a 120€ model, you could model Mortarion with two pistols.
I'm totally on board with the equivalent of two twin supa shootas, and if his klaw has two profiles that would be amazing.
One thing that I find really interesting is that the model shows where his head was reattached. It might not seem like much, but it implies that they wrote the fluff for it first and then made the model to align with the lore. This is an inversion of GWs usual process, which is to make models first and then write lore and rules based on what the model designers come up with. I wonder if this signals a change in the way they operate, maybe they'll start writing lore and rules first and making model kits afterwards, and we won't get kneecapped quite as hard by the unit entries being limited to only what comes in the kit. (We still would be limited to what's in the kits, but the kits will now hopefully include all the options we want.)
office_waaagh wrote: I'm totally on board with the equivalent of two twin supa shootas, and if his klaw has two profiles that would be amazing.
One thing that I find really interesting is that the model shows where his head was reattached. It might not seem like much, but it implies that they wrote the fluff for it first and then made the model to align with the lore. This is an inversion of GWs usual process, which is to make models first and then write lore and rules based on what the model designers come up with. I wonder if this signals a change in the way they operate, maybe they'll start writing lore and rules first and making model kits afterwards, and we won't get kneecapped quite as hard by the unit entries being limited to only what comes in the kit. (We still would be limited to what's in the kits, but the kits will now hopefully include all the options we want.)
I think the era of kits full of options has come to an end. Recent sets with many options like the plague marines or bloat-drones are rarely bought, while the ETB variants of either are everywhere. A box with many options like flash gits or mek gunz always costs more compared to other single-build sets like the buggies and therefore will be bought less.
office_waaagh wrote: I'm totally on board with the equivalent of two twin supa shootas, and if his klaw has two profiles that would be amazing.
One thing that I find really interesting is that the model shows where his head was reattached. It might not seem like much, but it implies that they wrote the fluff for it first and then made the model to align with the lore. This is an inversion of GWs usual process, which is to make models first and then write lore and rules based on what the model designers come up with. I wonder if this signals a change in the way they operate, maybe they'll start writing lore and rules first and making model kits afterwards, and we won't get kneecapped quite as hard by the unit entries being limited to only what comes in the kit. (We still would be limited to what's in the kits, but the kits will now hopefully include all the options we want.)
I think the era of kits full of options has come to an end. Recent sets with many options like the plague marines or bloat-drones are rarely bought, while the ETB variants of either are everywhere. A box with many options like flash gits or mek gunz always costs more compared to other single-build sets like the buggies and therefore will be bought less.
I suspect it'll depend on how many kits they expect to sell, a lot of other armies' unit boxes come with options for a couple of variants in the box, plus aesthetic choices (helmets or bare heads, for example), particularly the newer kits like Sisters.
I meant more that games design could start to inform model design rather than being determined by it. For example, I know for a fact that when the Red Waaagh! came out they made the Grukk model first and then sent the design to the rules team to make rules for afterwards, and we got a warboss with Shred not because we needed that but because that's what the miniatures designers thought would look cool. I'm wondering if they'll reverse it, and let the rules team say "this army needs a unit that fills the role of a battle tank with a heavy 8 autocannon, can you make us one?" to the miniatures designers. Since apparently they let the lore writers tell the miniatures designers "make a bigger Ghaz, except he's had his head chopped off and reattached."
monopose kits make no sense to me. If its a special named character, fine having more than 1 is kinda pointless anyway. But anything else...just why? Look at Admech. Every one of their kits (minus characters) is a duo-kit or has multiple gun options (crawler, robots). Most of these duo-dataslates are literally swap the head and/or weapon or add this plate here, thats all it takes to make people want to buy more of that kit because its two separate units in one kit. How many squigbuggies you think GW will sell? Had that dataslate been part of the KBB with an alternate back piece instead of a whole different kit they more than likely wouldnt have had such a massive stink for sales for that buggy.
I bought quite a lot of Squigbuggies. Just not to be used as squigbuggies haha! Mine are all converted into Megatrakks as im not a fan of a downed jet on wheels.
Same with the Snazzwagon, I used it to make Dragstas as I hate the model itself and I find the Snazzwagon the best looking out of all the buggies, then the Rukkatrukk, then Boosta Blasta.
Comically and ironically, im the opposite on the aesthetics opinion there lol.
Squigbuggy just looks like a Trukk variant to me, not even a buggy. Only thing about the Snazzwagon i love is the name and i find the strapped grot amusing at least.
Shokkjump is easily my favorite with KBB a close second.
Rules wise, yeah Shokkjump and Mekatrakk are my favourite but both dont look like buggies at all. The Snazzwagon is the only really true buggy in terms of looks, the KBB is a hot rod and the Rukkatrukk is yeah a Trukk variant but thats why I like it, reminds me of the old FW Gun Trukks, which when converted they look mean and meaty to represent the profile of the Megatrakk. Ill post pictures in the morning of mine. But by far the Snazzwagon is my favourite with looks. I swapped out the engines, did the same with the manifolds and exhausts. Drivers was reposed, each gunner was different, a couple of pics are in my gallery from a year ago of what I started on.
Let’s talk about the travesty that is the lore of this release.
Ghaz is a normal ork shot in the head and loses half his skull....
Gortsnik fixes his head and ghaz becomes a prophet
Ghaz goes to armeggedon and loses to a stale mate twice
First time he loses his klaw to yarrik after yarrik loses his hand in a stale mate
Grotznik fixes him up again
Second war for Armageddon ghaz is now the defacto warbles of all orks and gathers the largest wagghh ever captures yarrik and lets him live because he is the only human worth the fight
In comes the horrid 8th edition writing
Ghaz is basically a prime ork now
Ghaz get beat up and decapitated by random named non primarus space marine in some random small battle
Ghaz cuts off his arm again but somehow loses his head to the 1 armed man!
By luck some grot finds his head and grotznik fixes him up again!
The most powerful prime ork since the heresy is beaten by a 1 armed random space marine? Seriously?
Shoot him with a volcano cannon from a war hound titan or stormlord or an entire strike team of primarus lead by Dante or a real primarus marine... anything but this sad nonsense.
All I can say is game wise grotznik needs to have a 4+ fnp aura the dude is fekkin klutch all the time with his saves!
gungo wrote: Let’s talk about the travesty that is the lore of this release.
Ghaz is a normal ork shot in the head and loses half his skull....
Gortsnik fixes his head and ghaz becomes a prophet
Ghaz goes to armeggedon and loses to a stale mate twice
First time he loses his klaw to yarrik after yarrik loses his hand in a stale mate
Grotznik fixes him up again
Second war for Armageddon ghaz is now the defacto warbles of all orks and gathers the largest wagghh ever captures yarrik and lets him live because he is the only human worth the fight
In comes the horrid 8th edition writing
Ghaz is basically a prime ork now
Ghaz get beat up and decapitated by random named non primarus space marine in some random small battle
Ghaz cuts off his arm again but somehow loses his head to the 1 armed man!
By luck some grot finds his head and grotznik fixes him up again!
The most powerful prime ork since the heresy is beaten by a 1 armed random space marine? Seriously?
Shoot him with a volcano cannon from a war hound titan or stormlord or an entire strike team of primarus lead by Dante or a real primarus marine... anything but this sad nonsense.
All I can say is game wise grotznik needs to have a 4+ fnp aura the dude is fekkin klutch all the time with his saves!
I get that SM get all the lore favouritism usually from GW, but a lot of what you stated was wrong.
Ghaz has only been to Armageddon twice, I don't know what two stale mates you're talking about, but he lost the 2nd War for Armageddon after Yarrick stalled him long enough at Hades Hive. For the Third War for Armageddon, that was the only stalemate and that's partially because Ghaz got bored and left. Ghaz never lost his klaw to Yarrick, you're thinking of a different Ork Warboss that Yarrick decapitated, when Ghazzy found Yarrick he completely destroyed him and he only clung to life due to his iron will.
Ghaz got his head cut off by a named guy called Ragnar Blackmane, as much as I don't like SW, he's effectively the SW version of Cato Sicarius and is pretty much the shoe-in for the next Chapter Master of the SW. And given how much plot armour SW have, it's actually something to know it was a mutual KO. Chances are Blackmane went for a Haily Mary attack that got through the same time Ghaz managed to close his klaw around his arm that swung the blade, so his head came off while Blackmane's arm did. So it's not like he did it one-armed most likely.
Also, Ghaz is said to effectively be on the way to be a Prime-Ork, not that he already is. I wouldn't take it personally either, because this being 40K, named characters are almost effectively invulnerable to stuff like Exterminatus, Super-Heavy weapons and the like. Think about it. Even Jarran Kell, Creed's bodyguard, didn't die from a bolter round or super-weapon, he got personally killed by Abbadon the Despoiler. If you're a named character with a model, you generally either don't die (like this for example), or you die from a named character.
gungo wrote: Let’s talk about the travesty that is the lore of this release.
Ghaz is a normal ork shot in the head and loses half his skull....
Gortsnik fixes his head and ghaz becomes a prophet
Ghaz goes to armeggedon and loses to a stale mate twice
First time he loses his klaw to yarrik after yarrik loses his hand in a stale mate
Grotznik fixes him up again
Second war for Armageddon ghaz is now the defacto warbles of all orks and gathers the largest wagghh ever captures yarrik and lets him live because he is the only human worth the fight
In comes the horrid 8th edition writing
Ghaz is basically a prime ork now
Ghaz get beat up and decapitated by random named non primarus space marine in some random small battle
Ghaz cuts off his arm again but somehow loses his head to the 1 armed man!
By luck some grot finds his head and grotznik fixes him up again!
The most powerful prime ork since the heresy is beaten by a 1 armed random space marine? Seriously?
Shoot him with a volcano cannon from a war hound titan or stormlord or an entire strike team of primarus lead by Dante or a real primarus marine... anything but this sad nonsense.
All I can say is game wise grotznik needs to have a 4+ fnp aura the dude is fekkin klutch all the time with his saves!
I get that SM get all the lore favouritism usually from GW, but a lot of what you stated was wrong.
Ghaz has only been to Armageddon twice, I don't know what two stale mates you're talking about, but he lost the 2nd War for Armageddon after Yarrick stalled him long enough at Hades Hive. For the Third War for Armageddon, that was the only stalemate and that's partially because Ghaz got bored and left. Ghaz never lost his klaw to Yarrick, you're thinking of a different Ork Warboss that Yarrick decapitated, when Ghazzy found Yarrick he completely destroyed him and he only clung to life due to his iron will.
Ghaz got his head cut off by a named guy called Ragnar Blackmane, as much as I don't like SW, he's effectively the SW version of Cato Sicarius and is pretty much the shoe-in for the next Chapter Master of the SW. And given how much plot armour SW have, it's actually something to know it was a mutual KO. Chances are Blackmane went for a Haily Mary attack that got through the same time Ghaz managed to close his klaw around his arm that swung the blade, so his head came off while Blackmane's arm did. So it's not like he did it one-armed most likely.
Also, Ghaz is said to effectively be on the way to be a Prime-Ork, not that he already is. I wouldn't take it personally either, because this being 40K, named characters are almost effectively invulnerable to stuff like Exterminatus, Super-Heavy weapons and the like. Think about it. Even Jarran Kell, Creed's bodyguard, didn't die from a bolter round or super-weapon, he got personally killed by Abbadon the Despoiler. If you're a named character with a model, you generally either don't die (like this for example), or you die from a named character.
I only claimed he stalemated in armeggedon twice... both times the waaagh was stalled... maybe I was wrong on yarricks klaw However ghaz kept yarrick alive because he respected yarricks fighting.
And you made up a bunch of stuff on how a 1 armed man decapitated ghaz as no where what you wrote existed again a regular non primarus non primarch non custodes non chapter master space marine took out the most powerful ork since the heresy... I stand by assessment of the Mary Sue marines and the atrocious lore of using ghaz at a catalyst for nonsense writing.
- In the first war of armageddon, orks were not involved. - Yarrik is not carrying Thrakka's klaw. - Thrakka won against Yarrik at Hive Hades, it's just that Yarrik defended it long enough for the Imperial Fleet to arrive and eventually end the second war of armageddon. While the Imperium declares the third war of armageddon as won, there is still fighting on the surface, with neither side gaining any ground. - Everything related to Thrakka being a primark is not canon -even his current model doesn't compare in size to either Overlord Urrlak Urruk("said to be twice the height of the imperator himself") or The Beast ("10 meters tall"), nor the prime-orks ("size of a small gargant") serving it. - Ragnar Blackmane is not random at all, he is the chapter champion of the Space Wolves, so the best fighter in a chapter of fighters. He also has already killed two other warbosses leading waaaghs, so he kind of knows what he is doing. - Orks surviving decapitation is common and well-known fluff that can be found in multiple codices.
If you complain about the fluff, at least do it properly :p
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gungo wrote: And you made up a bunch of stuff on how a 1 armed man decapitated ghaz as no where what you wrote existed again a regular non primarus non primarch non custodes non chapter master space marine took out the most powerful ork since the heresy... I stand by assessment of the Mary Sue marines and the atrocious lore of using ghaz at a catalyst for nonsense writing.
Thrakka is by far not the most powerful ork since the heresy. He might be in the top 100. Seriously, you have absolutely no right to complain about new fluff if you don't even know what has be established for almost a decade.
Thraka is just the most well known big bad boss because of how massive his Waaagh! was. He himself is still nowhere near the biggest.
Im unaware if any of the larger ork bosses are still alive but as Jidmah stated there have been absolutely ginormous orks.
I mean, technically Tuska Daemonkilla is alive but hes kinda...busy...
The Beast came after the Heresy, and that dude was able to go toe to toe with a Primarch and match him. As much as I love Ghaz, I'm pretty sure Vulkan would kick his gak in if they got into a one on one fight.
Ghaz is the most powerful Ork *now*. Both in influence and in strength, but he doesn't even come close to The Beast in either of these aspects (the guy is one of the few beings to actually seige Terra).
I think we can still agree that Ragnar, even as a big beefboi marine, should really have gotten his ass handed to him by Thraka.
Now, I have not read the newest Psychic Awakening or anything, so if there's mitigating factors, let me know. Thraka singlehandedly thrashing a hundred marines solo before going toe-to-toe with Ragnar, for instance.
As usual for Marines when they take on something that should utterly destroy them, I'm gonna assume that the "victory" was due to dumb luck and "strength of will".
Yea Ragnar is far from a no name, especially given he started out as a reproduction of Leman Russ' old model. He's always had some heavy presence in fluff thanks to that. As far as how the fluff of this was handled, I think it's coming across as rather spontaneous because GW was in the position of being unable to properly build it up.
For proper tension and excitement, we should have heard about Ragnar going off to kill Ghaz ages ago (actually we may have? I've not read any of his BL series - but even if we did, core source material like the SW or Ork codexes would have been better places for it). Or even about Ragnar managing to cut off Ghaz's head and nearly dying. But that second scenario, while being better for raising the stakes for this rematch, leaves two characters with models GW was still supporting being "dead" but still being used in games for more than a year.
flandarz wrote: The Beast came after the Heresy, and that dude was able to go toe to toe with a Primarch and match him. As much as I love Ghaz, I'm pretty sure Vulkan would kick his gak in if they got into a one on one fight.
Ghaz is the most powerful Ork *now*. Both in influence and in strength, but he doesn't even come close to The Beast in either of these aspects (the guy is one of the few beings to actually seige Terra).
When I stated heresy I meant the period immediately after where the beast and other primeorks existed....
I do not recall any other ork since the original primeorks which were larger then ghaz is currently... if someone has an example of one please share...
But the fact is Ragnar shouldn’t have come close to killing ghaz in a duel...
It's important to remember that, in the fluff, Space Marines (and the Imperium at large) are the protagonists. They're gonna enjoy certain privileges because of it, such as unlikely victories, because it "tells a better story". Not much to do but accept it, but you can take solace in the fact that not even a decapitation can stop Ghaz. Dude could probably survive an Exterminatus and go on to build his forces back up elsewhere.
gungo wrote: Let’s talk about the travesty that is the lore of this release. Ghaz is a normal ork shot in the head and loses half his skull.... Gortsnik fixes his head and ghaz becomes a prophet Ghaz goes to armeggedon and loses to a stale mate twice First time he loses his klaw to yarrik after yarrik loses his hand in a stale mate Grotznik fixes him up again Second war for Armageddon ghaz is now the defacto warbles of all orks and gathers the largest wagghh ever captures yarrik and lets him live because he is the only human worth the fight
In comes the horrid 8th edition writing Ghaz is basically a prime ork now Ghaz get beat up and decapitated by random named non primarus space marine in some random small battle Ghaz cuts off his arm again but somehow loses his head to the 1 armed man! By luck some grot finds his head and grotznik fixes him up again!
The most powerful prime ork since the heresy is beaten by a 1 armed random space marine? Seriously? Shoot him with a volcano cannon from a war hound titan or stormlord or an entire strike team of primarus lead by Dante or a real primarus marine... anything but this sad nonsense.
All I can say is game wise grotznik needs to have a 4+ fnp aura the dude is fekkin klutch all the time with his saves!
I get that SM get all the lore favouritism usually from GW, but a lot of what you stated was wrong.
Ghaz has only been to Armageddon twice, I don't know what two stale mates you're talking about, but he lost the 2nd War for Armageddon after Yarrick stalled him long enough at Hades Hive. For the Third War for Armageddon, that was the only stalemate and that's partially because Ghaz got bored and left. Ghaz never lost his klaw to Yarrick, you're thinking of a different Ork Warboss that Yarrick decapitated, when Ghazzy found Yarrick he completely destroyed him and he only clung to life due to his iron will.
Ghaz got his head cut off by a named guy called Ragnar Blackmane, as much as I don't like SW, he's effectively the SW version of Cato Sicarius and is pretty much the shoe-in for the next Chapter Master of the SW. And given how much plot armour SW have, it's actually something to know it was a mutual KO. Chances are Blackmane went for a Haily Mary attack that got through the same time Ghaz managed to close his klaw around his arm that swung the blade, so his head came off while Blackmane's arm did. So it's not like he did it one-armed most likely.
Also, Ghaz is said to effectively be on the way to be a Prime-Ork, not that he already is. I wouldn't take it personally either, because this being 40K, named characters are almost effectively invulnerable to stuff like Exterminatus, Super-Heavy weapons and the like. Think about it. Even Jarran Kell, Creed's bodyguard, didn't die from a bolter round or super-weapon, he got personally killed by Abbadon the Despoiler. If you're a named character with a model, you generally either don't die (like this for example), or you die from a named character.
I only claimed he stalemated in armeggedon twice... both times the waaagh was stalled... maybe I was wrong on yarricks klaw However ghaz kept yarrick alive because he respected yarricks fighting.
And you made up a bunch of stuff on how a 1 armed man decapitated ghaz as no where what you wrote existed again a regular non primarus non primarch non custodes non chapter master space marine took out the most powerful ork since the heresy... I stand by assessment of the Mary Sue marines and the atrocious lore of using ghaz at a catalyst for nonsense writing.
But he didn't stalemate on Armageddon twice, he lost the the 2nd War for Armageddon (it wasn't really stalled except for Hades Hive, he lost the overall war and remember the First War for Armageddon didn't have Orks involved, it was Angron and his buddies vs Imperials), and so far the 3rd one is ongoing. I don't see how Ghaz keeping Yarrick alive is really relevant to your complaints, it just shows how much more of a threat Ghaz has become over time.
Don't get me wrong, personally I would have LOVED to see Ghaz just break Ragnar over his knee like he did with Belial and go even further and perma-kill him, but unsurprisingly that's bad PR, especially for a new model release that is SM-oriented. So instead of the usual cop-out of the duel causing one side to flee before its over, I liked that there was mutual destruction so you can at least say they technically killed one another, had there not been Apothecaries/Painboys available.
Also, if you're all up in arms about Ghazzy dying to someone below him, keep in mind this isn't exactly like DBZ where only people at certain power levels can kill one another. Guilliman, a Primarch, almost died to regular Alpha Legionaries catching him off guard and pumping him full of bolter rounds when he was unarmoured. Similarly, you have someone like Dante being able to take down Skarbrand singlehandedly, or Straken literally strangling the life out of a Chaos Lord. There's always going to be underdog stories and that's part of the fun. Of course there's a general higher likelihood of things happening, (i.e. we won't hear of Makari killing the Emperor anytime soon) but it's not like there isn't precedent for this happening in the lore.
It doesn't matter how you try and justify it - Ghaz' is the top Ork around in he current setting. He is equivalent to a Primarch for us. Him losing (likely twice?!) to Ragnar who isn't even the top wolfy wolf wolf is disappointing, though not particularly surprising.
So basically GW have misled us with this Beast thing. Because a beast should be able to compete with a Primarch. That's the level it raises a boss to in the lore. If Ghazzy loses to a Wolf Lord twice, well, he ain't no beast.
Edit - Ghazzy looks to be rapidly moving towards the Daemon Primarch role in the lore (acts as a means to show how awesome the good guys are). Now they've justified him effectively coming back from death he will never be a credible threat again. Shame.
The problem here is twofold:
1) Thrakka isn't actually a prime-ork yet. He might be on par with Calgar, Helbrecht or Kharn, but any of the Daemon Primarchs, as well as many of the loyal ones would outright slay him in direct combat.
2) Ragnar is very much one of the best fighters among all of the space marines, has multiple novels featuring him and is a rising star among the Space Wolves.
Ragnar and Thrakka are very much evenly matched opponents, both in power, experience and in importance to their corresponding faction.
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An Actual Englishman wrote: It doesn't matter how you try and justify it - Ghaz' is the top Ork around in he current setting. He is equivalent to a Primarch for us. Him losing (likely twice?!) to Ragnar who isn't even the top wolfy wolf wolf is disappointing, though not particularly surprising.
So basically GW have misled us with this Beast thing. Because a beast should be able to compete with a Primarch. That's the level it raises a boss to in the lore. If Ghazzy loses to a Wolf Lord twice, well, he ain't no beast.
Edit - Ghazzy looks to be rapidly moving towards the Daemon Primarch role in the lore (acts as a means to show how awesome the good guys are). Now they've justified him effectively coming back from death he will never be a credible threat again. Shame.
I heavily suggest reading up the lore on The Beast and his Prime-Orks. Thrakka is nowhere near that.
In a duel with Mortarion, Angron or Fulgrim, Thrakka would be slain in seconds, with no chance of bolting something back on to fix him.
office_waaagh wrote: Since apparently they let the lore writers tell the miniatures designers "make a bigger Ghaz, except he's had his head chopped off and reattached."
Or maybe mini designer thought that was cool and fluffwriters had to come up with fluff to support it?
Jidmah wrote: The problem here is twofold:
1) Thrakka isn't actually a prime-ork yet. He might be on par with Calgar, Helbrecht or Kharn, but any of the Daemon Primarchs, as well as many of the loyal ones would outright slay him in direct combat.
2) Ragnar is very much one of the best fighters among all of the space marines, has multiple novels featuring him and is a rising star among the Space Wolves.
Ragnar and Thrakka are very much evenly matched opponents, both in power, experience and in importance to their corresponding faction.
I'll respond to 1) below but on Ragnar and Ghaz' being evenly matched opponents in terms of importance to their corresponding faction I think you're mistaken.
Ghaz is the biggest, baddest ORK (faction, not subfaction). Ragnar isn't even the biggest, baddest SPACE WOLF (sub-faction of Marines). This is a huge disparity. Ghaz is as close to a Primarch as we have. He got decapitated by a not-even-chapter master-chump. It's poor form.
I heavily suggest reading up the lore on The Beast and his Prime-Orks. Thrakka is nowhere near that.
In a duel with Mortarion, Angron or Fulgrim, Thrakka would be slain in seconds, with no chance of bolting something back on to fix him.
I have read/listened to the entire Beast Arises series thanks Jidmah.
If GW didn't want us to associate Ghaz' with a Primork, they probably shouldn't have continually marketed his new model as 'The Beast' should they? They knew the implications. You say 'Ghaz is nowhere Beast level' as if it was obvious and GW hadn't continually marketed him as such.
Thrakka has been know as "The Beast of Armageddon" long before the first Beast Arises novel. Considering he is on the other side of the galaxy now, they just dropped the "of Armageddon" part. If you have read the books, you should know that even the smallest of the prime-orks were described as the size of small gargants, which is about the size of a stompa. In the empire of the beast, Thrakka would have been no more than a member of the elite guard serving under the prime-orks, and there were ten thousands of those.
"As close to a primarch to a Primarch as we have" isn't really saying anything. We don't have a primach, just like Tau, Eldar, Necrons, Tyranids, Adeptus Sororitas, Astra Militarum, Adeptus Mechanicum don't have a primarch. Thrakka is our Eldrad, Shadowsun, Immotekh, Swarmlord, Celestine, Creed or Cawl. Which, in marine terms, would make him Calgar, Ahriman or Typhus, not Gulliman, Magnus or Mortarion.
Ragnar is the Chapter Champion of the Space Wolves. Which means nothing less than that he is indeed the "biggest, baddest Space Wolf" around. Logan (the chapter master) explicitly had him called to handle Thrakka and Ragnar is considered to be the next chapter master, should Logan step down or die.
IMO this is just the wish of having a true primarch mixed with not knowing any of Ragnar's fluff. Which, to be fair, I didn't either until a couple of days ago. But after reading his entire background, I'm fairly certain that he is not a "random nobody" or "weak captain" some people make him out to be.
Love the discussion about the lore about who is tha biggest and da baddest.
But what do you guys think Ghazzy will cost us? Provided he is not sold in a friggin boxed set ofc. I'd love to get him but not really keen on getting even more nobs and megas.
The problem I see here is the same as with every other codex and I want to point out how hard is for gw to be creative in their lore.
At this moment in time, we have a lot of lore. A LOT. We have been going in a circle from the same cliffhangers since the beginning of 40k (if I am wrong please do illuminate me). Anything you write is gonna alter this balanced cliffhanger in a way which will provoke rage or awkwardness one way or another.
So now what do you do? Do you push the doomsday clock closer to midnight and start to kill outright armies and named characters? How would you like that?
Or do you do baby steps and make a reinterpretation of the lore with some minor silky explanation?
GW has been betting on the latter ever since and, at least economically, has been paying off big time.
Gruxz wrote: Love the discussion about the lore about who is tha biggest and da baddest.
But what do you guys think Ghazzy will cost us? Provided he is not sold in a friggin boxed set ofc. I'd love to get him but not really keen on getting even more nobs and megas.
Probably €50 like Abaddon when he becomes available separately. Ragnar will probably be €30-40.
Im gonna guess £50 for Ghaz if he is a standalone kit with Makari and not locked into a box set with the Wolves. Im basing that price of a Redemptor Dread and then adding character price inflation. If it is a box set, the Nobs and Meganobs alone is £55.50 then Infiltrators are £35 so thats already £90 without discounts. If Ragnar is priced like Mephiston and Lazarus thats £25, so we are now at £115.
Blood of the Phoenix was £140 and each kit individually came to a combined price of £222.50 which is around a 63% saving but still a super expensive boxset when it was released.
Whilst this boxset may have less models I would Imagine it would be around £120-30 at retail.
If Ghaz is priced more like Guilliman/Abaddon at £37.50 or Cawl/Celestine/Calgar at £32.50 then maybe the boxset will be around £110.
Just my estimates off of the previously costed PA set, which had more models and was genuinely received as overpriced.
That new rumor engine looks like a big choppa to me. Could it be that the new big mek with kff model gets a big choppa? I can't imagine we get another new ork model. And bm with kff looks like the only logical new release to me. Or they make a new nob set with a kff in the sprues, that would actually make sense to get ork peeps to buy the boxed set instead of waiting for the solo release... those sneaky gw gitz!
Automatically Appended Next Post: And yeah €50/60- sounds about right. I'd buy that. Above that would be a real headscratcher or the rules would be amaaazing.
Emicrania wrote: The real question is "when" is gonna be released.
My guess is the 21st of March for the Preorder, unless we are back to October when we dont actually get anything until November haha! Which would be annoying! Like im hyped but not as hyped as when the first Ghaz teaser video was shown. I have a doubles tournament at Wwarhammer World in May and I was hoping to get the book early March time not closer to April haha...
gungo wrote: And you made up a bunch of stuff on how a 1 armed man decapitated ghaz as no where what you wrote existed again a regular non primarus non primarch non custodes non chapter master space marine took out the most powerful ork since the heresy... I stand by assessment of the Mary Sue marines and the atrocious lore of using ghaz at a catalyst for nonsense writing.
Thrakka is by far not the most powerful ork since the heresy. He might be in the top 100. Seriously, you have absolutely no right to complain about new fluff if you don't even know what has be established for almost a decade.
Feel free to provide an example of a bigger more powerful ork then ghaz that existed after the beast arises timeline...
Multiple times GW has stated ghaz waaagh is the largest since that time period. And ork warbosses size is proportional to the size of thier waaagh energy.
My issue with this shoddy lore isn’t the fact Ragnar is one of the better space wolf fighters it’s the fact a single generic NON-primarus space marine was able to defeat ghaz... who is currently larger then a deffdread. It’s a disgrace they made the most powerful ork a basic marine punching bag. But hey at least random named non primarus space marine didn’t completely wipe out the most powerful ork. It’s just lore but it’s still disappointing.
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Gruxz wrote: That new rumor engine looks like a big choppa to me. Could it be that the new big mek with kff model gets a big choppa? I can't imagine we get another new ork model. And bm with kff looks like the only logical new release to me. Or they make a new nob set with a kff in the sprues, that would actually make sense to get ork peeps to buy the boxed set instead of waiting for the solo release... those sneaky gw gitz!
Automatically Appended Next Post: And yeah €50/60- sounds about right. I'd buy that. Above that would be a real headscratcher or the rules would be amaaazing.
The ghaz picture looks very much like a box set promotional picture and I’m hopeful we are getting a BM in this release as well. I don’t think we are getting much else since only ghaz was no longer available online... so my hopes for an upgraded tabkbusta/kommando dual kit is unlikely
That rumor engine is 100% the "small end" of a bigchoppa. We already have some that are similar to that...or at least i think we do. I know ive seen almost that exact bit before.
It probably is the KFF mek. They would have revealed Bullyboyz with Ghaz if they were a thing, and correct me if im wrong but arent they just larger Meganobz anyway so they'd have PK's?
Could be - the bandaged stick is something orks use quite regularly, and the weapon looks like a mix of a killsaw and a choppa. It's too small for a big choppas, but it looks like a weapon I could envision being held by some sort of mek orks.
Jidmah wrote: Thrakka is by far not the most powerful ork since the heresy. He might be in the top 100. Seriously, you have absolutely no right to complain about new fluff if you don't even know what has be established for almost a decade.
Feel free to provide an example of a bigger more powerful ork then ghaz that existed after the beast arises timeline...
Way to move the goalpost by two millennia
And ork warbosses size is proportional to the size of thier waaagh energy.
Citation needed.
My issue with this shoddy lore isn’t the fact Ragnar is one of the better space wolf fighters it’s the fact a single generic NON-primarus space marine was able to defeat ghaz...
Look, he is not "one of the better space wolf fighters". He is the best space wolf fighter alive, including their chapter master, wolf lords, and all those primaris guys who have been in the fridge for most of the last century. That's what a Chapter Champion is.
And it's pretty likely that many other chapters who don't rely on close combat don't have someone that could go toe to toe with him.
who is currently larger then a deffdread. It’s a disgrace they made the most powerful ork a basic marine punching bag. But hey at least random named non primarus space marine didn’t completely wipe out the most powerful ork. It’s just lore but it’s still disappointing.
The friggin' killed each other, twice. Which means they are equally matched. You seem to be under the odd impression that anything which doesn't end with the utter destruction of the ork's opponents counts as a loss for the orks.
Could be - the bandaged stick is something orks use quite regularly, and the weapon looks like a mix of a killsaw and a choppa. It's too small for a big choppas, but it looks like a weapon I could envision being held by some sort of mek orks.
It looks like the Dread Saw off the Deff Dread kit taped to the end of a stick.
In all honesty, probably not. The spoilers/GW articles with datasheets/staratgems etc are usually during the week leading up to the preoder. We haven't had a preview for the preorder yet, so I'm guessing we're still one week out.
Basically on this sunday (15th) they'll probably say what's available to preorder on the next saturday (21st) and we'll get articles between the 16th to 20th. There might be articles before that since this is a bigger release (and we've already had some with Makari) but that would not be in accordance to the "standard pattern"
warhead01 wrote: Ghaz getting his head lopped off by anyone, Yuck. New fluff is garbage. Booking so bad Vince McMahon wouldn't even do it.
GW what are you smoking?
Well I mean, he started by getting a bolter round to the head... so maybe this will make him even stronger than before?
Yeah, it looks like an upgrade option for a character given that there aren't any kits that would use it outside of a new commando kit mayyyybe, but its more likely a character piece. Just glad to see we'll be getting more than just ghazzy and makari at this point.
yeah and it was holding a pair of binoculars that were very not-ork.
I originally thought that was an orgryn but the ideal time to release any guard stuff is pass so....dunno now
The binocular image is definitely not orky. I thought so at first, too, but as was pointed out to me, the hand holding those binoculars 100% does not belong to an ork or gretchin.
The stocky but muscular look of that arm most closely matches IG ratlings from what I've seen so that one is almost certainly not an Ork. But the boot with metal teef and this new RE from today basically has to be Orks so we do have something in the pipeline
I know that the Big Mek with KFF is one of the missing datasheets. I believe the only other one is technically the Warboss on Bike under the FW section (which should be promptly given once FW actually release the updated Index rules). I don't think there's anything else in CA that lack as far as datasheets go do we?
I guess the bigger question is if we'll only be getting a small clampack release or if they'll actually release anything else alongside this. To be honest, deffkoptas would be one of the ideal kits to update alongside this, since it matches the tech theme of a Big Mek release. It's also a really old metal sculpt since they don't have the AOBR ones available anymore. Now that I think of it, could this be the buzzsaw option that used to be available for deffkoptas?
Jidmah wrote: Thrakka is by far not the most powerful ork since the heresy. He might be in the top 100. Seriously, you have absolutely no right to complain about new fluff if you don't even know what has be established for almost a decade.
Feel free to provide an example of a bigger more powerful ork then ghaz that existed after the beast arises timeline...
Way to move the goalpost by two millennia
And ork warbosses size is proportional to the size of thier waaagh energy.
Citation needed.
My issue with this shoddy lore isn’t the fact Ragnar is one of the better space wolf fighters it’s the fact a single generic NON-primarus space marine was able to defeat ghaz...
Look, he is not "one of the better space wolf fighters". He is the best space wolf fighter alive, including their chapter master, wolf lords, and all those primaris guys who have been in the fridge for most of the last century. That's what a Chapter Champion is.
And it's pretty likely that many other chapters who don't rely on close combat don't have someone that could go toe to toe with him.
who is currently larger then a deffdread. It’s a disgrace they made the most powerful ork a basic marine punching bag. But hey at least random named non primarus space marine didn’t completely wipe out the most powerful ork. It’s just lore but it’s still disappointing.
The friggin' killed each other, twice. Which means they are equally matched. You seem to be under the odd impression that anything which doesn't end with the utter destruction of the ork's opponents counts as a loss for the orks.
I think the only reason Ghaz sold out on the webstore was because people wanted one of the old ones before they were gone for good.
Well, the joke is on them, Failcast Thrakka is a horrible model.
I didn’t move the goal post the beast arises is the next main antagonist after the heresy timeline it’s obvious to anyone as I compared ghaz to prime orks I was talking about the beast arises. The fact you can’t list a single ork that was more powerful as ghaz since then shows that it’s an absolute travesty that Ragnar was able to decapitate ghaz which is NOT a draw. My issue is it took multiple primarchs to take down the primeorks and it took only a single regular space marine to decapitate ghaz. It really doesn’t matter if Ragnar is the chapter champion he was still a regular space marine and not even made primarus yet. It completely downplays Orks.
“ The Waaagh! of The Beast was so powerful that its effect influenced all of his Orks to grow far larger and more aggressive than normal. Even a standard "Beast Ork" Boy towered above a normal Greenskin.”
Predator and prey chapter 1
The larger the waaagh the bigger the ork... the current ork codex says ghaz waaagh is the largest waaagh since the beast arises!!!
Jidmah wrote: Thrakka is by far not the most powerful ork since the heresy. He might be in the top 100. Seriously, you have absolutely no right to complain about new fluff if you don't even know what has be established for almost a decade.
Feel free to provide an example of a bigger more powerful ork then ghaz that existed after the beast arises timeline...
Way to move the goalpost by two millennia
And ork warbosses size is proportional to the size of thier waaagh energy.
Citation needed.
My issue with this shoddy lore isn’t the fact Ragnar is one of the better space wolf fighters it’s the fact a single generic NON-primarus space marine was able to defeat ghaz...
Look, he is not "one of the better space wolf fighters". He is the best space wolf fighter alive, including their chapter master, wolf lords, and all those primaris guys who have been in the fridge for most of the last century. That's what a Chapter Champion is. And it's pretty likely that many other chapters who don't rely on close combat don't have someone that could go toe to toe with him.
who is currently larger then a deffdread. It’s a disgrace they made the most powerful ork a basic marine punching bag. But hey at least random named non primarus space marine didn’t completely wipe out the most powerful ork. It’s just lore but it’s still disappointing.
The friggin' killed each other, twice. Which means they are equally matched. You seem to be under the odd impression that anything which doesn't end with the utter destruction of the ork's opponents counts as a loss for the orks.
I think the only reason Ghaz sold out on the webstore was because people wanted one of the old ones before they were gone for good.
Well, the joke is on them, Failcast Thrakka is a horrible model.
I didn’t move the goal post the beast arises is the next main antagonist after the heresy timeline it’s obvious to anyone as I compared ghaz to prime orks I was talking about the beast arises. The fact you can’t list a single ork that was more powerful as ghaz since then shows that it’s an absolute travesty that Ragnar was able to decapitate ghaz which is NOT a draw. My issue is it took multiple primarchs to take down the primeorks and it took only a single regular space marine to decapitate ghaz. It really doesn’t matter if Ragnar is the chapter champion he was still a regular space marine and not even made primarus yet. It completely downplays Orks.
“ The Waaagh! of The Beast was so powerful that its effect influenced all of his Orks to grow far larger and more aggressive than normal. Even a standard "Beast Ork" Boy towered above a normal Greenskin.” Predator and prey chapter 1
The larger the waaagh the bigger the ork... the current ork codex says ghaz waaagh is the largest waaagh since the beast arises!!!
Again, you have to get your facts straight. In no way, did the primeorks require multiple primarchs to stop them. Only Vulkan was ever found during the War of the Beast, and more importantly it was a mutual KO when they both plunged into the WAAAAGH! beam of energy that vaporized both. Also, if you're being all pissy about this, do you know what stopped the entire WAAAGH! of the Beast on Ullanor? A bunch of sisters of silence and a captured weirdboy ritual combo that had them do a reverse WAAAGH! effect that just blew up the Prime-Orks' heads. The dumbest part is that theoretically that's all they need to do again for each emergent WAAAGH!, so personally I prefer them having them to do it the old fashioned way of assassinating Orks personally rather than the "I delete you" button from the Beast Arises series.
A new deffkopta model would make sense, considering the old pewter/resin one is fugly as sin and AOBR is increasingly difficult to get your hands on.
Especially with the recent mega price reduction they got. All they gotta do is release the same profile but with bits to bring back the KMB, Rokkits, Bigshoota, and perhaps 1 other gun (Skorcha?) and they'd sell like hotcakes.
*glances at his 15 deffkoptas* ...well...not sure if i'd buy any though lol
Vineheart01 wrote: A new deffkopta model would make sense, considering the old pewter/resin one is fugly as sin and AOBR is increasingly difficult to get your hands on.
Especially with the recent mega price reduction they got. All they gotta do is release the same profile but with bits to bring back the KMB, Rokkits, Bigshoota, and perhaps 1 other gun (Skorcha?) and they'd sell like hotcakes.
*glances at his 15 deffkoptas* ...well...not sure if i'd buy any though lol
I'd just be happy for them to make Bomms a thing for them again too, it was nice having another way to inflict mortal wounds without having to rely on just weirdboyz or the burna bommer.
Vineheart01 wrote: yeah and it was holding a pair of binoculars that were very not-ork.
I originally thought that was an orgryn but the ideal time to release any guard stuff is pass so....dunno now
Yeah but look at the arm of the Megatrakk Scrapjet. The hand holding the trigger for the rokkit has a watch on it.
*edit* I just looked at the hand and it has no klaws, so probably not an ork. *edit*
warhead01 wrote: Ghaz getting his head lopped off by anyone, Yuck. New fluff is garbage. Booking so bad Vince McMahon wouldn't even do it.
GW what are you smoking?
Well I mean, he started by getting a bolter round to the head... so maybe this will make him even stronger than before?
Sure. But he was just one of the boys back then and not the important character he is today. And this is a problem or at least something I don't like because with the removal of Nezdreg, Ghaz is the last big bad the Orks have. Which leads me to wonder just how he even managed to get suckered into a fight with anything as small in size as a Space Marine.
The story sucks so far. Hopefully it leaves the space wolves in a heap of smashed faces. I don't expect the story ti get any better.
gungo wrote: I didn’t move the goal post the beast arises is the next main antagonist after the heresy timeline it’s obvious to anyone as I compared ghaz to prime orks I was talking about the beast arises.
The entire horus heresy basically started with the fall of a completely different "prime-ork" on the very same planet that would eventually be the home to The Beast and would eventually be called Armageddon by human settlers.
Lumping in The Saga of the Beast with the horus heresy, which happend in a completely different era, is the exactly the kind inaccuracy that prevents you from properly putting both Thrakka and Ragnar in context with existing lore.
Oh, and just for accuracy, after the Horus Heresy, there were multiple wars to cleanse the galaxy of traitor legions, as well as infighting between the lords of terra before the War of the Beast happened two thousand years later.
The fact you can’t list a single ork that was more powerful as ghaz since then shows that it’s an absolute travesty that Ragnar was able to decapitate ghaz
Just because he is the most powerful ork alive doesn't mean he is more powerful than a top combatant of the space marines. After the whole disaster at Ullanor, the imperium founded an entire chapter of space marines dedicated to wiping out warbosses before they come as powerful as The Beast and its prime-orks, which is the reason why there has not been someone as powerful as Thrakka in the last years.
which is NOT a draw.
Ragnar had his arm ripped off and would have died if not for the possibility to make him primaris. How exactly do you determine who won when both combatants are incapacitate and mortally wounded? Even if there were gretchin hold up signs with point values on them, I doubt they would have gone in favor of Ragnar.
My issue is it took multiple primarchs to take down the primeorks and it took only a single regular space marine to decapitate ghaz.
No, your issue is that you fail to understand that a Thrakka isn't even in the ballpark of a prime-ork that fought the primarchs. Once more:
Thrakka is not a prime-ork.
Prime-orks are 9-12 meters tall and talk perfect high gothic with no orkish slurr whatsoever. Neither can be said of Thrakka, at best he is halfway there.
It really doesn’t matter if Ragnar is the chapter champion he was still a regular space marine and not even made primarus yet.
A chapter champion is as much as regular space marine as Thrakka is a regular nob. Seriously, did you even read any of the lore related to this discussion?
“ The Waaagh! of The Beast was so powerful that its effect influenced all of his Orks to grow far larger and more aggressive than normal. Even a standard "Beast Ork" Boy towered above a normal Greenskin.”
Predator and prey chapter 1
The larger the waaagh the bigger the ork... the current ork codex says ghaz waaagh is the largest waaagh since the beast arises!!!
1. 'Multiple exclamation marks, are a sure sign of a diseased mind.' - Sir Terry Pratchett
2. You understand that "the largest since the beast ariseses!!!" means that it's smaller than the Waaagh of the Beast, right? In fact, evidence is crushing that it's still smaller than Waaagh! Urruk who could be killed by single Primarch, Horus.
Jidmah wrote: Thrakka has been know as "The Beast of Armageddon" long before the first Beast Arises novel. Considering he is on the other side of the galaxy now, they just dropped the "of Armageddon" part.
Oh yes, silly me. Any reference to "The BEAST" is obviously a reference to an outdated nickname and has absolutely nothing to do with The BEAST ARISES series.
If you have read the books, you should know that even the smallest of the prime-orks were described as the size of small gargants, which is about the size of a stompa. In the empire of the beast, Thrakka would have been no more than a member of the elite guard serving under the prime-orks, and there were ten thousands of those.
The process of becoming a Prime-Ork takes 1-2 thousand years. It is not (presumably) a quick process. Ghaz is certainly going through it now.
"As close to a primarch to a Primarch as we have" isn't really saying anything. We don't have a primach, just like Tau, Eldar, Necrons, Tyranids, Adeptus Sororitas, Astra Militarum, Adeptus Mechanicum don't have a primarch.
Thrakka is our Eldrad, Shadowsun, Immotekh, Swarmlord, Celestine, Creed or Cawl.
Which, in marine terms, would make him Calgar, Ahriman or Typhus, not Gulliman, Magnus or Mortarion.
The key difference here is that GW had the opportunity to make Ghaz Primarch tier and they have squandered it. That is lame for a few reasons;
1. It makes the Ork threat look utterly inconsequential (why doesn't Guilliman just pop over there and splat Ghaz? Or Magnus? Or Morty? They can't even stand in the same ring)
2. It shows that GW are still focused on the whole "Chaos vs Imperium hurr durr" schtick (and this implies that model releases will be focused on these factions also).
3. Why make Ghazzy Primarch size if he isn't Primarch level?
4. Ghaz was our one lad who could actually win things. He was the Ork that tried and did. That is clearly over.
Ragnar is the Chapter Champion of the Space Wolves. Which means nothing less than that he is indeed the "biggest, baddest Space Wolf" around. Logan (the chapter master) explicitly had him called to handle Thrakka and Ragnar is considered to be the next chapter master, should Logan step down or die.
Sorry he's bigger and badder than Russ is he?
Logan called Ragnar because of some dumb bs vision from a never-before-seen Wolf Priest that told him to.
IMO this is just the wish of having a true primarch mixed with not knowing any of Ragnar's fluff. Which, to be fair, I didn't either until a couple of days ago. But after reading his entire background, I'm fairly certain that he is not a "random nobody" or "weak captain" some people make him out to be.
I'm not saying he's a "random nobody" or a "weak captain". I'm saying that he should be below Ghaz in terms of his "level". Simple as that. Russ is above Ragnar. Logan is above Ragnar. There is no Ork above Ghaz. The peak Ork is no more than a Captain level character? feth off. Yea I'm sure Ragnar is badass (all marines are?), but he's not Russ badass. He's not even Logan. It's predictable, poor writing utterly in keeping with the PA event so far. We'll see what happens in round 2 but I'm expecting Ghaz to be saved by G&Mork before Ragnar finishes the job, which will only reinforce GWs position.
And "getting decapitated" is a much more significant loss in a fight than "losing an arm and having your back broken". One you can survive. The other you cannot. If there was a winner from their mutually destructive first fight, it clearly wasn't Ghaz.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jidmah wrote: The binocular image is definitely not orky. I thought so at first, too, but as was pointed out to me, the hand holding those binoculars 100% does not belong to an ork or gretchin.
It's not 100% anything until it's revealed. The nails might simply not be in shot or difficult to see because of saturation. GW may have even purposefully removed them.
The Weirdnob Shaman has no nails in AoS when the rest of the Ironjaw range does if that is any food for thought. Yeah they arent 40k greenskins but it could be like that. I could see it being an arm to a Kommando Nob, Big Mek or Deffkopta Pilot.
Also I hope the Big Mek if he is getting a model, isnt forced to take a Big Choppa too.
* neither does the Warchanter too, but the Brutes, Mmegaboss and Gruntas definitely have claws. So it isnt a far stretch for a new ork model not to have claws aswell.
flandarz wrote:The Codex is less reliable because GW puts out Chapter Approved, which updates point-costs, on a yearly schedule.
Granted if you write the points on the entry on a post-it it's more reliable. OR even just update them in the codex.
Vineheart01 wrote:Old Zogwort was our warphead character but he never had a model so he went the way of the dodo.
i miss squigifying people with him, even if it almost...never...ever...went off lol
tulun wrote:10 attacks?
And he’s currently 141 points. Woof.
Any bets he’d be able to wreck new ghaz in combat?
He will 100% not be 141 points with 10 A.
Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote:Grotsnik only problem is being an elite choice rather than HQ
In a way that's kinda good also. Unless you maximize Elites.
It is going to be deffkoptas, that'll be the saw. A while ago GW posted a brake lever on the handle that was Orky. The entry doesn't have a kit and hasn't since 4th ed. I would also bet that rumour we saw of the Ork boot will be Kommandos (possibly dual kit with Tankbustas) as I don't know any other resin infantry kits Orks have for units.
Until Marines (and the Imperium at large) stops being the protagonists of the 40k universe (in other words, never), they're gonna keep pulling out unlikely victories/stalemates. The best we can really hope for are temporary victories and draws, because the narrative revolves around how the Imperium takes on deadly threats and wins.
flandarz wrote: Until Marines (and the Imperium at large) stops being the protagonists of the 40k universe (in other words, never), they're gonna keep pulling out unlikely victories/stalemates. The best we can really hope for are temporary victories and draws, because the narrative revolves around how the Imperium takes on deadly threats and wins.
There's "pulling unlikely victories" then there's "smashing into the middle of the 'greatest WAAAGGGHHH!!! since the Beast and decapitating the Warlord in single combat". One is more acceptable than the other. They are not the same thing.
To be fair, decapitation is roughly as serious for an Ork as the loss of an arm is for a human. Probably less so, if we're being honest. The Codex states that a couple days after a "mortal wound" Orkz have been sighted back on the battlefield and fighting like nothing happened. Conversely, a couple days after losing a limb, a human is still lying in a hospital bed with an easily reopened wound where their arm used to be.
flandarz wrote: To be fair, decapitation is roughly as serious for an Ork as the loss of an arm is for a human. Probably less so, if we're being honest. The Codex states that a couple days after a "mortal wound" Orkz have been sighted back on the battlefield and fighting like nothing happened. Conversely, a couple days after losing a limb, a human is still lying in a hospital bed with an easily reopened wound where their arm used to be.
Yes we all know that Orks can survive decapitation. The thing is, without any control of their own body, as just a disembodied head, they're completely and utterly powerless. A Space Marine with one arm can keep on killing for days.
An Actual Englishman wrote: The process of becoming a Prime-Ork takes 1-2 thousand years. It is not (presumably) a quick process. Ghaz is certainly going through it now.
I agree, but that's still some time to go. Thrakka first appeared "in the late 41st century" and the events of PA end around 111.41k. So he is probably 200-300 years old.
The key difference here is that GW had the opportunity to make Ghaz Primarch tier and they have squandered it. That is lame for a few reasons;
I doubt that they would want to make Thrakka primarch tier. Those are incredibly hard to design, as demonstrated by the three that do have models. Meanwhile, they had a perfectly fine concept for Thrakka that just needed some polishing. In my opinion Abbaddon/Calgar tier is a much better place to be game wise.
1. It makes the Ork threat look utterly inconsequential (why doesn't Guilliman just pop over there and splat Ghaz? Or Magnus? Or Morty? They can't even stand in the same ring)
Why would they? If anything, Mortarion and Magnus would be cheering him on from the sidelines while he crushes Terra. The only reason Mortarion got off his ass in the eye of chaos at all is because he wants to kill Gulliman. And Gulliman is kind of busy with keeping the Imperium from collapsing on itself. The Great Waaagh! is probably not on his top priority, considering all the other things going on - including Waaagh! Wazzdakka headed directly for Terra. On top of that, killing Thrakka is pretty much a suicide mission, as demonstrated by Ragnar.
2. It shows that GW are still focused on the whole "Chaos vs Imperium hurr durr" schtick (and this implies that model releases will be focused on these factions also).
Only Chaos and the Imperium do have Primarchs though.
3. Why make Ghazzy Primarch size if he isn't Primarch level?
Size isn't everything? They really just increased his size to how large he is in the fluff. I can't find the piece right now, but there is an ancient art with an Armageddon steel legion soldier pointing at Thrakka, who has a mega-armoured nob standing next to him who barely reaches up to his chest.
Ragnar is the Chapter Champion of the Space Wolves. Which means nothing less than that he is indeed the "biggest, baddest Space Wolf" around. Logan (the chapter master) explicitly had him called to handle Thrakka and Ragnar is considered to be the next chapter master, should Logan step down or die.
Sorry he's bigger and badder than Russ is he?
Leman Russ isn't "around".
Logan called Ragnar because of some dumb bs vision from a never-before-seen Wolf Priest that told him to.
That's as much bs as Thrakka getting his head stapled back on. That's how Space Wolves operate.
I'm not saying he's a "random nobody" or a "weak captain". I'm saying that he should be below Ghaz in terms of his "level". Simple as that. Russ is above Ragnar. Logan is above Ragnar. There is no Ork above Ghaz. The peak Ork is no more than a Captain level character?
What I'm trying to tell you, is that Logan is only above Ragnar in rank. Logan himself says that he would struggle to hold his own against him, so Thrakka is fighting someone who has better combat skills than Logan. Ragnar is pretty sure to be chapter master master eventually.
And "getting decapitated" is a much more significant loss in a fight than "losing an arm and having your back broken". One you can survive. The other you cannot. If there was a winner from their mutually destructive first fight, it clearly wasn't Ghaz.
The whole point is that Ragnar could not have survived his injuries if there wasn't the whole "get a new primaris body" thing. They killed each other. And they both got better.
Jidmah wrote: It's not 100% anything until it's revealed. The nails might simply not be in shot or difficult to see because of saturation. GW may have even purposefully removed them.
No, the nails were cleary visible. I can't find it right now because the community pages sucks. Does someone have the picture?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Shower thoughts:
The whole scene with Logan and the wolf priest very reminds me of the beginnings of 80s/90s action hero movies. Something terrible happens/the news of something terrible happening reaches the general/commissioner/head of defense and they stare at the camera and say "Only one man can help us now". Then they proceed to get some bad-ass ex-marine martial artist cop who is then the actual hero. Ragnar is very much that guy, considering how many action movies novels he has stared in.
I don't get the point of anyone defending lore behind this. It IS trash simply because compared to how much of a backstory Ghaz has with Yarrik or Helbrecht...
Getting his head chopped by someone else entirely is just disrescpect to the lore. Not to mention, that resurrecting characters makes it seem like there are no consequences for losing.
Model is gorgeous, but don't defend lazy lore writing.
I agree, but that's still some time to go. Thrakka first appeared "in the late 41st century" and the events of PA end around 111.41k. So he is probably 200-300 years old.
It can be as slow or as quick a process as GW want it to be.
I doubt that they would want to make Thrakka primarch tier. Those are incredibly hard to design, as demonstrated by the three that do have models. Meanwhile, they had a perfectly fine concept for Thrakka that just needed some polishing.
In my opinion Abbaddon/Calgar tier is a much better place to be game wise.
I don't agree I'm afraid. Ghaz is almost certainly going to be a [MONSTER] like Guilliman' so his stats should better reflect that.
That said, I'm not talking about in game - I'm talking about lore.
1. It makes the Ork threat look utterly inconsequential (why doesn't Guilliman just pop over there and splat Ghaz? Or Magnus? Or Morty? They can't even stand in the same ring)
Why would they? If anything, Mortarion and Magnus would be cheering him on from the sidelines while he crushes Terra. The only reason Mortarion got off his ass in the eye of chaos at all is because he wants to kill Gulliman.
And Gulliman is kind of busy with keeping the Imperium from collapsing on itself. The Great Waaagh! is probably not on his top priority, considering all the other things going on - including Waaagh! Wazzdakka headed directly for Terra.
On top of that, killing Thrakka is pretty much a suicide mission, as demonstrated by Ragnar.
I left my bit in here because presumably you accept that it makes the Ork threat seem utterly inconsequential? This is gak, to me.
Ragnar demonstrated that it's a suicide mission for a non-Primaris captain only. Round two may well show it to be trivial.
Only Chaos and the Imperium do have Primarchs though.
You're missing the point.
Size isn't everything? They really just increased his size to how large he is in the fluff. I can't find the piece right now, but there is an ancient art with an Armageddon steel legion soldier pointing at Thrakka, who has a mega-armoured nob standing next to him who barely reaches up to his chest.
I know the work. Presumably that was during a war for Armageddon, so Ghaz' should be bigger now?
Also again - he's as big as GW decide he is.
Leman Russ isn't "around".
Jid you're really arguing in bad faith here.
Answer me a few questions -
Is Leman Russ dead?
Is it possible Leman Russ could return?
Would Leman Russ be a better fighter than Ragnar?
Would Ghaz' be able to do anything against Leman Russ?
What I'm trying to tell you, is that Logan is only above Ragnar in rank. Logan himself says that he would struggle to hold his own against him, so Thrakka is fighting someone who has better combat skills than Logan. Ragnar is pretty sure to be chapter master master eventually.
Listen we all know how the GW power system works - Logan is boss (and BEAT MAGNUS if I'm not mistaken?!) of the Space Wolves so he's the toughest Space Wolf going. 'Id struggle to hold my own against Ragnar' is nothing like 'Ragnar has better combat skills than me'. He doesn't, unless you can cite this?
The whole point is that Ragnar could not have survived his injuries if there wasn't the whole "get a new primaris body" thing.
They killed each other. And they both got better.
No the point is that the information inked that Ghaz' was more incapacitated than Ragnar, which is why it's his loss.
Obviously you think this state of affairs is fine and that's OK. You don't need to rub on everyone that disagrees with you though. Ragnar should not best Ghaz' in my opinion. There's a fair few Ork and not Ork players that agree. He's not the top Marine in the setting while Ghaz' is the top Ork. It's equivalent to fething Krillin beating Freeza or, in our setting, Huron Blackheart beating Guilliman', or Calgar beating Abaddon/Mortarion/Magnus. It is rubbish, lazy writing in my opinion and it shows that the Ork threat is actually a joke.
As dead as all important characters that might have died off-screen
Is it possible Leman Russ could return? Would Leman Russ be a better fighter than Ragnar?
Obviously.
Would Ghaz' be able to do anything against Leman Russ?
Absolutely not. Horus slaughtered Overlord Urrlak Urruk (the warboss who almost killed the emperor) and his entire honor guard by himself, broke his back and tossed him of a tower. Leman Russ is a stronger combatant than Horus was and might have been warp-wolfed on top of that. Meanwhile, Thrakka is nowhere near Urrlak Urruk. If you would want Thrakka be dead-dead or running away like a coward, Leman Russ would be exactly the right opponent for him.
Listen we all know how the GW power system works - Logan is boss (and BEAT MAGNUS if I'm not mistaken?!)
He didn't beat Magnus, during a fight with multiple Space Wolves he was able to injure him before the Grey Knights banished Magnus. And even that had more to do with the origins of his axe, rather than his skill, as well as Magnus blowing up the guy with the spear of russ instead of Logan. Daemon Primarchs in fluff are insanely powerful (way beyond what they do on the tabletop), no Marine or Ork can stand against them in a duel.
No the point is that the information inked that Ghaz' was more incapacitated than Ragnar, which is why it's his loss.
warhammer community wrote:Ragnar went hard in his first fight against Ghazghkull, willing to sacrifice his life to put an end to the alien menace. He fought with skill and bravery but ended up with an arm sheared off, a broken neck and several fist-size rents in his armour.
When the warriors of his Great Company found his body, it seemed like the Young King’s saga was over. There was only one option to save his life – attempting to cross the Rubicon Primaris. Ragnar’s spirit was strong and it was not yet ready to travel to the Halls of the Emperor so, somehow, the Wolf Lord clawed his way back to life.
I really see no way to read this as a win for Ragnar
Obviously you think this state of affairs is fine and that's OK. You don't need to rub on everyone that disagrees with you though.
I'm not "rubbing on" anyone. I'm pointing out where people are making up their own canon while ignore established lore. Whether Ragnar is a suitable match for Thrakka is a matter of opinion. That Thrakka is not a prime-ork and Ragnar is not a "nobody/standard captain" is a fact.
Ragnar should not best Ghaz' in my opinion.
He didn't.
He's not the top Marine in the setting while Ghaz' is the top Ork. It's equivalent to fething Krillin beating Freeza or, in our setting, Huron Blackheart beating Guilliman', or Calgar beating Abaddon/Mortarion/Magnus. It is rubbish, lazy writing in my opinion and it shows that the Ork threat is actually a joke.
I seriously think you are overreacting to this. Ragnar is no Krillin, more of a Vegeta - which by my understanding of the dbz universe still is weaker than Freeza, but not a total joke character. But yes, the writing isn't exactly great. Take that from someone who read and liked the Resident Evil novels.
The entire set-up of this duel is stupid. Neither character can kill the other, because both are extremely important to their corresponding background. Thrakka is our Prophet of Gork and Mork, the Beast of Armageddon, Ragnar is the upstart, charismatic son-to-be High King of the space wolves staring in multiple novels. On top of that, they want to sell miniatures of both, so having them actually swing at each other, rather than face off as field commanders is never going to result in anything other than a draw, especially as they already wasted the "got stomped into the ground and then left" trope on Calgar. The reason why these duels work in the horus heresy is because they can actually kill off the characters involved. Last, but not least, the reason why Ragnar and not any other wolf is solely because all others already got updated plastic kits a few years ago. "We don't have anyone else" is pretty much the worst reason for a duel.
I tend to agree with AAE. Yea I know who Ragnar is, I know his story but he still really doesnt compete with the likes of Ghaz. He isnt your standard run of the mill Warboss.... He is smarter, more aggressive, has a huge drive that inspires all the Klans.
If I remember the DA story right (Im a old time DA player), he cut Belial in half from the waist down (or snapped his back). Belial. Of the greatest swordsmen in the whole Imperium with the experience to back it up and the Grand Master of one of the best single fighting forces in the whole Imperium, the Deathwing (outside of Custodes and Titans). He still lost, and he understood the weight of Ghaz's threat.
Size does matter, to an Ork. As far as we know Ghaz is the biggest currently in the galaxy, he isnt your Nazdreg or your Snagrod. Those Warlords are his lieutenants now. A huge feat in Orky society. And with his size comes strength, strength vastly greater than an space marine to date.
And whilst he may not be lightning quick like Ragnar, hes a heck of a lot tougher and meaner. Shoot Ragnar in the head with a bolt round and lets see if he can stumble back to camp and have a Apothecary fix him up....
The fight reminds me of Oberyn Martell vs the Mountain in GoT. Yeah Ragnar will be nipping at the heels of Ghaz, pocking and proding, dancing about, but Ghaz would get him just like the Mountain did to Oberyn. Except unlike humans, Orkz have crazy amount stamina, ill quote the Warboss from DoW2 when he fights the Captain, "deyz ooman, deyz get tired.". They simply have the strength toughness and stamina to outlast other opponents. And all it would take was 1 hit to game end Ragnar, wolves dont really fight with finese.... they are savage, bestial. Just like Orkz. There wouldnt be much fancy footwork, its a straight up brawl.
If it were Abaddon vs Ghaz then id be like ok this is some serious crap going down, but Ragnar? right..... Being a better combatant that your Chapter Master doesnt make you better than your Chapter Master. He doesnt have the experience, restraint or knowledge that Logan has. If I remember correctly Ragnar is very brash and hot blooded like a Blood Claw.
He may be next in line for Chapter Master, but he is still just a Captain and really he is the shadow of the Beast. There isnt a comparison between the two, as AAE said, its our Faction's equivalent to Guilliman, Abaddon, Trajann, Swarmlord. He is the HEAD of the Orkoid race atm, not a head of just a smaller sect/klan.
Its like me fighting a world champion heavy weight boxer, I might be the best fighter known to my town, but I would still be outclassed and outweighed.
The whole fluff thats been shown is dumb, Space Wolves sneaking up? Passable, all Chapters have some form of reconnaissance. Getting Ghaz unawares? Hmmm ye no. The Boss isnt just chillin' hes on a mission, hes constantly on the move, kicking up fights! Not sitting in an iron throne ruminating on what to do next! And that doesnt even begin to explain the Bully Boys he would have (no way Primaris would be a match for them in the fluff, especially with Ugrak leading them) and then whatever personal retinue of his Council of the Waaagh! that is currently stationed with him, aka Orkimedes with his techno-gubbins or Weirdboys. Hell the Grots and Squigs would of found the Marines and Ghaz being Ghaz wouldnt just have lazy Ork Patrols mopping about.
The story is silly, and the two dont have any prior conflicts really, it should of been Helbrect and Yarrick. Thats the end of it. We can all argue about why and how but GW has done a GW and thats it.
Me personally, when I get my Ghaz model, im cutting off the stitches and liquid greenstuffing the lines so his neck is back to normal.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I also agree with Jidmah's last point. But what is done is done. The end.
deffrekka wrote: Size does matter, to an Ork. As far as we know Ghaz is the biggest currently in the galaxy, he isnt your Nazdreg or your Snagrod. Those Warlords are his lieutenants now. A huge feat in Orky society. And with his size comes strength, strength vastly greater than an space marine to date.
Agree, but AAE said that he should have the power of a primarch because he is the size of a primarch - while the lore cleary shows that orks who can go toe to toe with a (non-daemon) primarch are 10 meters (~30 feet) or taller, so the size of the current stompa model.
If it were Abaddon vs Ghaz then id be like ok this is some serious crap going down,but Ragnar? right..... Being a better combatant that your Chapter Master doesnt make you better than your Chapter Master. He doesnt have the experience, restraint or knowledge that Logan has. If I remember correctly Ragnar is very brash and hot blooded like a Blood Claw.
He does have two dead Waaagh!-leading warbosses to show as experience though.
He may be next in line for Chapter Master, but he is still just a Captain and really he is the shadow of the Beast. There isnt a comparison between the two, as AAE said, its our Faction's equivalent to Guilliman, Abaddon, Trajann, Swarmlord. He is the HEAD of the Orkoid race atm, not a head of just a smaller sect/klan.
I find it odd that you lump Gulliman in there instead of Calgar, but in general I agree with the assessment of his importance.
I do want to point out though that he is just leading The Great Waaagh! right now, while there are multiple other Waaaghs and ork empires around, lead by Wazzdakka, The Arch-Arsonist of Charradon or the Overfiend of Octarius.
He is much more of an Abaddon (most powerful leader of the most powerful sub-faction) than a Gulliman (leader of an entire faction).
The story is silly, and the two dont have any prior conflicts really, it should of been Helbrect and Yarrick. Thats the end of it. We can all argue about why and how but GW has done a GW and thats it.
I agree, this should have been Helbrecht above all other characters. Black Templars seem to have dropped from GWs attention though...
Me personally, when I get my Ghaz model, im cutting off the stitches and liquid greenstuffing the lines so his neck is back to normal.
Eh, I'd rather keep them and take every chance to taunt our Space Wolves player with Monty Python's back knight quotes
deffrekka wrote: Size does matter, to an Ork. As far as we know Ghaz is the biggest currently in the galaxy, he isnt your Nazdreg or your Snagrod. Those Warlords are his lieutenants now. A huge feat in Orky society. And with his size comes strength, strength vastly greater than an space marine to date.
Agree, but AAE said that he should have the power of a primarch because he is the size of a primarch - while the lore cleary shows that orks who can go toe to toe with a (non-daemon) primarch are 10 meters (~30 feet) or taller, so the size of the current stompa model.
If it were Abaddon vs Ghaz then id be like ok this is some serious crap going down,but Ragnar? right..... Being a better combatant that your Chapter Master doesnt make you better than your Chapter Master. He doesnt have the experience, restraint or knowledge that Logan has. If I remember correctly Ragnar is very brash and hot blooded like a Blood Claw.
He does have two dead Waaagh!-leading warbosses to show as experience though.
He may be next in line for Chapter Master, but he is still just a Captain and really he is the shadow of the Beast. There isnt a comparison between the two, as AAE said, its our Faction's equivalent to Guilliman, Abaddon, Trajann, Swarmlord. He is the HEAD of the Orkoid race atm, not a head of just a smaller sect/klan.
I find it odd that you lump Gulliman in there instead of Calgar, but in general I agree with the assessment of his importance.
I do want to point out though that he is just leading The Great Waaagh! right now, while there are multiple other Waaaghs and ork empires around, lead by Wazzdakka, The Arch-Arsonist of Charradon or the Overfiend of Octarius.
He is much more of an Abaddon (most powerful leader of the most powerful sub-faction) than a Gulliman (leader of an entire faction).
The story is silly, and the two dont have any prior conflicts really, it should of been Helbrect and Yarrick. Thats the end of it. We can all argue about why and how but GW has done a GW and thats it.
I agree, this should have been Helbrecht above all other characters. Black Templars seem to have dropped from GWs attention though...
Me personally, when I get my Ghaz model, im cutting off the stitches and liquid greenstuffing the lines so his neck is back to normal.
Eh, I'd rather keep them and take every chance to taunt our Space Wolves player with Monty Python's back knight quotes
I would of done Calgar if Guilliman wasnt back in the setting, as in previous editions Marneus was kind of seen as the leader of the Marines (as in other Chapters would accept his authority) when Ward did the codex which I found silly. Isnt Abaddon the defacto leader of Chaos? With that silly bit of fluff where all the Daemonic Primarchs bent the knee to him? He is the Horus of 40k in terms of being the Warmaster and being the leader of all the Chaos forces in the Galaxy. Yeah Chaos leaders do their own things every now and then but Abaddon is still the main man of the Faction in general. He isnt no Guilliman and neither is Thrakka, but all 3 are the leaders of the Factions hence why they are all in the same category.
And yeah I agree, Ghaz isnt a match for a Primarch, he may be bigger than any of the current characters in the setting but what gives a Primarch their strengths isnt just their combat prowess, its their minds, charisma (or lack of haha), special abilities and vast intellects. Daemon Primarchs are in a whole new league of their own but they are hard to summon into the material, thats always been their limiting factor. Pound for pound Ghaz equals the str value of 30k Primarchs baring a couple like Vulkan and I think Angron. But never, will and Ork match a Primarch, thats the whole point of Primarchs. They are demigods.
But I would put Ghaz on the same pedestal as Abaddon fluff wise. Not as much as failure but still a huge threat to the galaxy, and ultimately the Imperium sees Chaos as the bigger threat as it does more that slams a choppa in your head. It corrupts. And it is spinning out of control since the fall of Cadia. And sadly the Imperium, although it is vast, cant have its attention everywhere. So whilst it fights Chaos, the other races close in on it, like the T'au snagging territory, the Necrons waking up, the Orkz doing their thing and the Tyranids having a buffet.
The galaxy is unfathomably HUGE. Loosing a Solar System is just a pebble in the ocean, but eventually that ripple will form a tidal wave and thats the whole thing about Orkz. And has been a recurring theme for them, people forget about them and left unchecked things like the Beast happens. But GW has and always will favour the Imperial side of things and pull silly stunts and plot armour to gain a "Pyrrhic" victory (which they always seem to recover from miraculously). 40k as a whole is from the point of view of the Imperium and the largest player base is as youd guess, Imperial.
And yeah a Monty Python Black Knight thing would be funny but the one Space Wolves player in my area hates Ragnar (he prefers Arjac) and I would be making Ghaz into Deffrekka instead. I love the model dont get me wrong! Im just not a fan of the match up or fluff for it, but its what we have been given.
deffrekka wrote: Isnt Abaddon the defacto leader of Chaos? With that silly bit of fluff where all the Daemonic Primarchs bent the knee to him? He is the Horus of 40k in terms of being the Warmaster and being the leader of all the Chaos forces in the Galaxy. Yeah Chaos leaders do their own things every now and then but Abaddon is still the main man of the Faction in general.
He really isn't, the other chaos legions and renegades don't give a damn about what he says unless they are joining out of convenience or as mercenaries. Typhus joins him on crusades quite often, but always does so to further his/nurgles goals.
While the primarchs recognize him as the chosen of chaos, he basically bribed four primarchs into helping him, but neither Fulgrim, Mortarion nor Magnus take any orders from him, let alone bend their knees. Angron doesn't count because he never took orders from anyone ever to begin with. All of them could probably kill him at will, if they weren't sure that the chaos gods would severely punish them for it or even directly intervene. World Eaters, Death Guard, Emperor's Children and Thousand Sons can join his black legion, but they leave their original legion to do so, symbolized by painting their armor black.
And lets not get started on the loyalty of daemons
Basically the Black Legion is to chaos what The Great Waaagh! is to orks.
deffrekka wrote: Isnt Abaddon the defacto leader of Chaos? With that silly bit of fluff where all the Daemonic Primarchs bent the knee to him? He is the Horus of 40k in terms of being the Warmaster and being the leader of all the Chaos forces in the Galaxy. Yeah Chaos leaders do their own things every now and then but Abaddon is still the main man of the Faction in general.
He really isn't, the other chaos legions and renegades don't give a damn about what he says unless they are joining out of convenience or as mercenaries. Typhus joins him on crusades quite often, but always does so to further his/nurgles goals.
While the primarchs recognize him as the chosen of chaos, he basically bribed four primarchs into helping him, but neither Fulgrim, Mortarion nor Magnus take any orders from him, let alone bend their knees. Angron doesn't count because he never took orders from anyone ever to begin with. All of them could probably kill him at will, if they weren't sure that the chaos gods would severely punish them for it or even directly intervene. World Eaters, Death Guard, Emperor's Children and Thousand Sons can join his black legion, but they leave their original legion to do so, symbolized by painting their armor black.
And lets not get started on the loyalty of daemons
Basically the Black Legion is to chaos what The Great Waaagh! is to orks.
Oh right, I always thought he had more Authority over the Legions than that. I knew Abbie was a meme but I thought that was always in regards to his Crusades always failing and having both arms cut off. NGL though, I would have Horus over Abaddon any day of the week,
No one expected ghaz to beat guilliman or a demon primarch even abbadon should wipe him out.
But I would have been happy to see ghaz take out a strike team of the imperils new toys of a primarus intecessors and random primarus company captain. Heck I would have been a bit more happy if Ragnar was already primarus when he fought ghaz at least that ups the ork threat.
Yes there are other waaaghs but the lore is clearly about ghaz teleporting around the galaxy and recruiting all these warbosses. It’s only a matter of time when ghaz combines all the klans and warbosses again including wazadakka, nazdreg, etc
warhead01 wrote: I am wondering it the real lesson here is that it doesn't matter how cool Ghaz is, never let him go it alone.
Has Ghaz actually done many duels in his time? I dont remember any that he has been part of. Hes not a Grimgor really, I always thought of him just letting his underlings getting on with it, I can imagine him being challenged by a Captain and he notations his Bully Boyz to step forward and beat him to pulp. I know he fought the Alpha Mawloc but he didnt really get a choice with that one as it burst through the ground and swallowed him. He killed that Bad Moons Warboss when he was rising to power, but I definetly cant remember any Imperial characters hes fought 1 on 1.
So, since the book isn't out yet, I present something that I think could satisfy. (It's not LIKELY, but hey, who knows?)
Spoiler:
Ghaz is leading his crew in an assault on a fortified position, when a dozen drop pods crash down in between him and the majority of his Waaagh! Over a hundred Marines come out, guns blazing, and aiming to separate Ghaz from his forces, so he can be killed. But, they underestimate the strength of the Orks-what was meant to be a clean sweep quickly turns into an absolute mayhem. Ghaz's forces, bereft of their leader, find the next convenient target and start pummeling it. Meanwhile, Ghaz is fighting his way back to the Waaagh! One by one, his bullyboyz are cut down, until, after almost a week of nonstop fighting, Ghaz is the only one left. Ragnar, who's been tracking him, is finally forced to fight Ghaz personally, in order to stop him from breaking through the last line of Wolves and reuniting with his Waaagh!
He comes in, cocky and overconfident, knowing that Ghaz has been fighting for over a week nonstop. He plans to swoop in and claim an easy victory. But, Ghaz's first strike nearly knocks his block off, and he realizes he's in for a desperate fight. For over an hour, the two duel, Ragnar's quick movements only barely saving him from Ghaz's sweeping blows, while Ghaz accumulates yet more injuries-minor, but the ones he's gotten over the week and the ones Ragnar are inflicting are adding up. Eventually, he gets Ragnarin his claw, crushing the lower half of his body. Mind a bit dulled from all the injuries, he takes a moment to gloat instead of simply finishing off the Marine, and Ragnar summons the last of his strength to decapitate Ghaz. The mere convulsions of Ghaz's body tear Ragnar's arm off, thoroughly breaking him, but Ghaz's head falls to the ground, just as his Waaagh! (sensing his presence) break through and take on the Wolves.
I feel like that'd be okay. A fully rested and prepared Ragnar, as opposed to a Ghaz who might very well be getting tired, even though he's an Ork.
Yup! That's pretty much how I pictured it too. Ghaz will have him in his claw and with a last ditch effort, Rag will swing and chop his head off. The claw will tighten and crush Rag and then its all over but the stitches.
JNAProductions wrote: So, since the book isn't out yet, I present something that I think could satisfy. (It's not LIKELY, but hey, who knows?)
Spoiler:
Ghaz is leading his crew in an assault on a fortified position, when a dozen drop pods crash down in between him and the majority of his Waaagh! Over a hundred Marines come out, guns blazing, and aiming to separate Ghaz from his forces, so he can be killed. But, they underestimate the strength of the Orks-what was meant to be a clean sweep quickly turns into an absolute mayhem. Ghaz's forces, bereft of their leader, find the next convenient target and start pummeling it. Meanwhile, Ghaz is fighting his way back to the Waaagh! One by one, his bullyboyz are cut down, until, after almost a week of nonstop fighting, Ghaz is the only one left. Ragnar, who's been tracking him, is finally forced to fight Ghaz personally, in order to stop him from breaking through the last line of Wolves and reuniting with his Waaagh!
He comes in, cocky and overconfident, knowing that Ghaz has been fighting for over a week nonstop. He plans to swoop in and claim an easy victory. But, Ghaz's first strike nearly knocks his block off, and he realizes he's in for a desperate fight. For over an hour, the two duel, Ragnar's quick movements only barely saving him from Ghaz's sweeping blows, while Ghaz accumulates yet more injuries-minor, but the ones he's gotten over the week and the ones Ragnar are inflicting are adding up. Eventually, he gets Ragnarin his claw, crushing the lower half of his body. Mind a bit dulled from all the injuries, he takes a moment to gloat instead of simply finishing off the Marine, and Ragnar summons the last of his strength to decapitate Ghaz. The mere convulsions of Ghaz's body tear Ragnar's arm off, thoroughly breaking him, but Ghaz's head falls to the ground, just as his Waaagh! (sensing his presence) break through and take on the Wolves.
I feel like that'd be okay. A fully rested and prepared Ragnar, as opposed to a Ghaz who might very well be getting tired, even though he's an Ork.
Do you reckon Ragnar broke his neck after chopping Ghaz's head off? This is the part im like over... Did Ghaz's body fall on him or something as that would crush more than just your neck, and if that werent the case how does someone fight on with a broken neck? I know Astartes are tough, but they dont really have any special organs that stops crap like that from affecting your nerves from being severed.
Im just finding it hard to imagine how Ragnar got his broken neck that didnt involve Ghaz falling on his head (which would pulp his unarmoured skull and crush anything else) or being thrown against a wall mid death throw which would do way more damage that breaking your neck. If it were me I would leave out the broken neck part and instead have it that Ragnar was ripped in half as there is no way Ghaz's klaw would just snip an arm, if Ghaz held onto his arm and yanked, it would take the shoulder and anything else thats attached via implants, black carapace and bionics. Just like when that Ork in the DoW3 trailer tears off that Marines arm, its more than just his arm that got taken off.
As dead as all important characters that might have died off-screen
Is it possible Leman Russ could return?
Would Leman Russ be a better fighter than Ragnar?
Obviously.
Would Ghaz' be able to do anything against Leman Russ?
Absolutely not. Horus slaughtered Overlord Urrlak Urruk (the warboss who almost killed the emperor) and his entire honor guard by himself, broke his back and tossed him of a tower. Leman Russ is a stronger combatant than Horus was and might have been warp-wolfed on top of that. Meanwhile, Thrakka is nowhere near Urrlak Urruk. If you would want Thrakka be dead-dead or running away like a coward, Leman Russ would be exactly the right opponent for him.
I'm going to need a citation for your claim on Horus slaughtering Urrlak Urruk in the way you've described because you've got your fluff wrong here. I've read the book where the Emperor is almost killed and it isn't Urrlak that does it, it's one of his MegaMeks (unnamed I believe). It's not even on the same planet. Horus doesn't 'slaughter' the MegaMek either. He sucker punches him while the MegaMek holds the Emperor by the neck. While he sucker punches/stabs him, he releases his grip on the Emperor and effortlessly incapacitates Horus. He's about to kill Horus before the Emperor steps in and has to do the ctrl-alt-del psychic power to wipe the MegaMek from existence (which is the first time Horus sees psychic power/the warp and led to his eventual corruption, it's also exactly the same power that the Emperor later uses on Horus, ironically).
As to Horus v Leman Russ, we'll never know. My knowledge of their only fight is that Russ effectively stalled Horus while taking a serious beating, though Horus was all Chaos'd up to be fair. It's somewhat irrelevant here because...
Make no mistake though, the battle the Luna Wolves (and the other Legions, I might add) had against the Orks of Urrlak Urruk pre Heresy was not a cakewalk or an easy victory. It was a crusade of epic proportions that was/is storied in the setting for a reason. This is the potential threat that Orks could (and should) be.
I really see no way to read this as a win for Ragnar
If I cut off your head, Jid and you cut off my arm and broke my back, who would you say has "won" the fight?
It's a moot point, because Ragnar shouldn't even be holding Ghaz to a draw.
I'm not "rubbing on" anyone. I'm pointing out where people are making up their own canon while ignore established lore.
Whether Ragnar is a suitable match for Thrakka is a matter of opinion.
That Thrakka is not a prime-ork and Ragnar is not a "nobody/standard captain" is a fact.
You're jumping over any one who believes this fluff is poorly written and stupid because you've done a bit of homework on Ragnar and you've bought into the hype.
Ghaz is a Prime-ork. Or at the very least on the way to becoming one. We also only found out that he isn't a Prime-ork from this latest piece of awful lore where he gets his head chopped off.
I'm not claiming that Ragnar is a "nobody/standard captain". The claim is that he is not/should not be equal to Ghaz. I don't know why you keep strawmanning like this.
Ragnar should not best Ghaz' in my opinion.
He didn't.
See above, our pretend fight. Answer honestly.
I seriously think you are overreacting to this. Ragnar is no Krillin, more of a Vegeta - which by my understanding of the dbz universe still is weaker than Freeza, but not a total joke character.
But yes, the writing isn't exactly great. Take that from someone who read and liked the Resident Evil novels.
This is almost certainly an overreaction. Totally agree on that. Vegeta is the number 2 guy, so as far as the Wolves are concerned that'd be Logan, I guess, because Russ is number 1. The analogy somewhat falls apart after that because as of now Vegeta would destroy Freeza with his eyes closed.
The entire set-up of this duel is stupid. Neither character can kill the other, because both are extremely important to their corresponding background. Thrakka is our Prophet of Gork and Mork, the Beast of Armageddon, Ragnar is the upstart, charismatic son-to-be High King of the space wolves staring in multiple novels. On top of that, they want to sell miniatures of both, so having them actually swing at each other, rather than face off as field commanders is never going to result in anything other than a draw, especially as they already wasted the "got stomped into the ground and then left" trope on Calgar.
The reason why these duels work in the horus heresy is because they can actually kill off the characters involved.
Last, but not least, the reason why Ragnar and not any other wolf is solely because all others already got updated plastic kits a few years ago. "We don't have anyone else" is pretty much the worst reason for a duel.
Now this is something I completely agree with.
To be fair, I think you're trying to justify this lore position and I can't blame you for that. I think it's lame but I don't have an issue if you disagree with me. As you have correctly stated above - whether Ragnar is a suitable match for Ghazzy is absolutely a matter of opinion.
I tend to agree with AAE. Yea I know who Ragnar is, I know his story but he still really doesnt compete with the likes of Ghaz. He isnt your standard run of the mill Warboss.... He is smarter, more aggressive, has a huge drive that inspires all the Klans.
If I remember the DA story right (Im a old time DA player), he cut Belial in half from the waist down (or snapped his back). Belial. Of the greatest swordsmen in the whole Imperium with the experience to back it up and the Grand Master of one of the best single fighting forces in the whole Imperium, the Deathwing (outside of Custodes and Titans). He still lost, and he understood the weight of Ghaz's threat.
Size does matter, to an Ork. As far as we know Ghaz is the biggest currently in the galaxy, he isnt your Nazdreg or your Snagrod. Those Warlords are his lieutenants now. A huge feat in Orky society. And with his size comes strength, strength vastly greater than an space marine to date.
And whilst he may not be lightning quick like Ragnar, hes a heck of a lot tougher and meaner. Shoot Ragnar in the head with a bolt round and lets see if he can stumble back to camp and have a Apothecary fix him up....
The fight reminds me of Oberyn Martell vs the Mountain in GoT. Yeah Ragnar will be nipping at the heels of Ghaz, pocking and proding, dancing about, but Ghaz would get him just like the Mountain did to Oberyn. Except unlike humans, Orkz have crazy amount stamina, ill quote the Warboss from DoW2 when he fights the Captain, "deyz ooman, deyz get tired.". They simply have the strength toughness and stamina to outlast other opponents. And all it would take was 1 hit to game end Ragnar, wolves dont really fight with finese.... they are savage, bestial. Just like Orkz. There wouldnt be much fancy footwork, its a straight up brawl.
If it were Abaddon vs Ghaz then id be like ok this is some serious crap going down, but Ragnar? right..... Being a better combatant that your Chapter Master doesnt make you better than your Chapter Master. He doesnt have the experience, restraint or knowledge that Logan has. If I remember correctly Ragnar is very brash and hot blooded like a Blood Claw.
He may be next in line for Chapter Master, but he is still just a Captain and really he is the shadow of the Beast. There isnt a comparison between the two, as AAE said, its our Faction's equivalent to Guilliman, Abaddon, Trajann, Swarmlord. He is the HEAD of the Orkoid race atm, not a head of just a smaller sect/klan.
Its like me fighting a world champion heavy weight boxer, I might be the best fighter known to my town, but I would still be outclassed and outweighed.
The whole fluff thats been shown is dumb, Space Wolves sneaking up? Passable, all Chapters have some form of reconnaissance. Getting Ghaz unawares? Hmmm ye no. The Boss isnt just chillin' hes on a mission, hes constantly on the move, kicking up fights! Not sitting in an iron throne ruminating on what to do next! And that doesnt even begin to explain the Bully Boys he would have (no way Primaris would be a match for them in the fluff, especially with Ugrak leading them) and then whatever personal retinue of his Council of the Waaagh! that is currently stationed with him, aka Orkimedes with his techno-gubbins or Weirdboys. Hell the Grots and Squigs would of found the Marines and Ghaz being Ghaz wouldnt just have lazy Ork Patrols mopping about.
The story is silly, and the two dont have any prior conflicts really, it should of been Helbrect and Yarrick. Thats the end of it. We can all argue about why and how but GW has done a GW and thats it.
Me personally, when I get my Ghaz model, im cutting off the stitches and liquid greenstuffing the lines so his neck is back to normal.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I also agree with Jidmah's last point. But what is done is done. The end.
I like and agree with all of this post, but the greenstuffing of the stiches is the winner for me. I may be doing this myself.
Really its all down to the fact Ghaz hasnt had his own series of Novels from his point of view. Ragnar has all these silly claims, yet we know nothing really of what Ghaz has bested in melee or what he has survived. And when a Space Marines has done crap to 3 Daemonic Primarchs it kind of becomes mute. I loose interest.
I bet if a Grot did the same people would cry sin about it. It simply becomes too silly. In the eyes of these Immortal Primarchs a Space Marine is a Grot.
I like my 40k where people die everyday, regardless if they are heroes or a no name civilian. Its why I kind of prefer 30k fluff. Things progress, Heroes die, Worlds burn, Primarchs fall. Not Unstoppable Space Wolf Murder Hobo breaking everyone over his knee like Bane to Batman... Ragnar isnt as special as the next Space Marine in the grand scheme of things, but writers will also make Imperial characters better than they should as 40k as a whole is a Imperial setting.
A few units have probably slipped up or down, both because of the Marine meta and the point drops we got in CA, but I think we're all kinda waiting for our PA to drop before we really give it a good look over and switch stuff up.
i wish they would put up preorders 2 weeks in advance. My gamestore always has issues getting the right numbers of crap when they wont reveal any prices or official name of what the product even is in some cases until that week.
Far as i know we still dont have 100% confirmation theres a box set for this PA. If there isnt, i need to order Ghaz+PA+whatever else is coming. If there is then i need to coordinate with the local wolf player to split it lol.
i pretty much never get new stuff the week its available because of this.
Ya I've already got a plan in place to trade wolves for orks with a local player if that bottom pic does in fact end up being a box set. I really hope it does!
Vineheart01 wrote: i wish they would put up preorders 2 weeks in advance. My gamestore always has issues getting the right numbers of crap when they wont reveal any prices or official name of what the product even is in some cases until that week.
Far as i know we still dont have 100% confirmation theres a box set for this PA. If there isnt, i need to order Ghaz+PA+whatever else is coming. If there is then i need to coordinate with the local wolf player to split it lol.
i pretty much never get new stuff the week its available because of this.
I'm lucky. It seems like a local distribution centre is in my hometown, because whenever I order stuff online, I have gotten it in like... 2 days. Always floors me.
Vineheart01 wrote: i wish they would put up preorders 2 weeks in advance. My gamestore always has issues getting the right numbers of crap when they wont reveal any prices or official name of what the product even is in some cases until that week.
Far as i know we still dont have 100% confirmation theres a box set for this PA. If there isnt, i need to order Ghaz+PA+whatever else is coming. If there is then i need to coordinate with the local wolf player to split it lol.
i pretty much never get new stuff the week its available because of this.
What I tend to do is wait and watch the reviews on preorder day either through GMG or TTT on youtube. If I dont like it then Ill wait. I havent bought a single PA, not even Ritual of the Damned for my DA. The only ones im interested in is this one and Engine War. Luckily I have a shared account on BL with a few guys at the club and if one of us buys the ebook we all get to see it. Its a joint thing we all dip into. And funnily my store is the opposite to yours, he always orders waaaaaay more stock than he should do and then when he doesnt sell stuff he we keep lowering the price until its pretty much at trade price. I bought a Gorkanaut a couple years back for like £45 haha as it did sell for ages and just recently he was tryna shift 2 Grundstock Gunhaulers £30 for the pair hahaha! But I resisted
My store isnt a proper GW store though, in fact 40k is like a quarter of the people that regular the place. As a result they tend to try to not over order, because if the immediate people with their faces pressed on the window waiting for the store to open on release day didnt buy it most likely its going to sit there for a long time.
Nobody in my area plays Admech and i ordered a sizeable army with them. Since then they started carrying some admech stuff that sits on the shelf with the other 40k boxes and...other than a knight i dont think anything has sold outside that initial order i did lol. Usually if i get anything right away its because the guy that does the orders knows me pretty well and even if i didnt order anything he expects me to buy it anyway and hes right 99% of the time lol. But, since thats not preorder, if it gets cleaned up before i show im outta luck.
Theres a LOT of orks in my area, i'd say about a third of the 40k players have ork armies here. Though i am easily the most active with orks, i rarely see others on the table even though i know they exist; while i play 4-5 ork games before i touch my admech once lol
Vineheart01 wrote: My store isnt a proper GW store though, in fact 40k is like a quarter of the people that regular the place.
As a result they tend to try to not over order, because if the immediate people with their faces pressed on the window waiting for the store to open on release day didnt buy it most likely its going to sit there for a long time.
Nobody in my area plays Admech and i ordered a sizeable army with them. Since then they started carrying some admech stuff that sits on the shelf with the other 40k boxes and...other than a knight i dont think anything has sold outside that initial order i did lol.
Usually if i get anything right away its because the guy that does the orders knows me pretty well and even if i didnt order anything he expects me to buy it anyway and hes right 99% of the time lol. But, since thats not preorder, if it gets cleaned up before i show im outta luck.
Theres a LOT of orks in my area, i'd say about a third of the 40k players have ork armies here. Though i am easily the most active with orks, i rarely see others on the table even though i know they exist; while i play 4-5 ork games before i touch my admech once lol
Mine isnt a GW either. Most of the people who go play Magic or Transformers. I had to run a 40k campaign just to get games, and now ive got a rota set up so more tabletop games are played instead of just card games (as i dont play card games, nothing against them, just arent my thing). In my area I am the only Ork and Admech player. Its mainly Marines, one Dark Eldar player, a handful of T'au, GSC and Nid players and then Guard and Sisters. I tend to get 3 games on a Saturday and thats it, but before January I took a looooong ass break from 40k, since May last year as I couldnt stand 8th (still cant stand it but 30k has died out pretty badly so what can you do haha!).
Vineheart01 wrote: My store isnt a proper GW store though, in fact 40k is like a quarter of the people that regular the place.
Mine isnt a GW either. Most of the people who go play Magic or Transformers. I had to run a 40k campaign just to get games, and now ive got a rota set up so more tabletop games are played instead of just card games (as i dont play card games, nothing against them, just arent my thing). In my area I am the only Ork and Admech player. Its mainly Marines, one Dark Eldar player, a handful of T'au, GSC and Nid players and then Guard and Sisters. I tend to get 3 games on a Saturday and thats it, but before January I took a looooong ass break from 40k, since May last year as I couldnt stand 8th (still cant stand it but 30k has died out pretty badly so what can you do haha!).
Vineheart01 wrote: My store isnt a proper GW store though, in fact 40k is like a quarter of the people that regular the place.
Mine isnt a GW either. Most of the people who go play Magic or Transformers. I had to run a 40k campaign just to get games, and now ive got a rota set up so more tabletop games are played instead of just card games (as i dont play card games, nothing against them, just arent my thing). In my area I am the only Ork and Admech player. Its mainly Marines, one Dark Eldar player, a handful of T'au, GSC and Nid players and then Guard and Sisters. I tend to get 3 games on a Saturday and thats it, but before January I took a looooong ass break from 40k, since May last year as I couldnt stand 8th (still cant stand it but 30k has died out pretty badly so what can you do haha!).
Transformers is a game ??
A card game yea. If it were tabletop id be all over it
theres cardgames for just about everything. Vastly easier to print them vs tabletop wargames so people are more willing to just "try" with a bs cardgame. If it flops, eh not out much. If it explodes in popularity WINWINWIN!!
I know some people that would freak out if a transformers (or Gundam) Wargaming game popped up
Vineheart01 wrote: theres cardgames for just about everything. Vastly easier to print them vs tabletop wargames so people are more willing to just "try" with a bs cardgame. If it flops, eh not out much. If it explodes in popularity WINWINWIN!!
I know some people that would freak out if a transformers (or Gundam) Wargaming game popped up
Tbhid play a Transformers wargame hahaha I just dislike card games with a passion and what its been doing to my community is pushing people further from the hobby as card game require less time, space and skill. They prefer the less effort and ease of access than the 40k grind hahaha the campaign ive started has atleast added to people to play against and get people building and painting again. A lot of people in my area arent really fond of 8th, with like the character rules, all the auras and rerolls.
addnid wrote: Guys do you know if by the 29th we will have the rules out ? Sorry for asking, the info was surely written here somewhere
Preorder 21st, out by the 28th is my Bet. Otherwise it wont be a March release. Unless they pull an Orktober and release it the next month haha
Except for GW it's the preorder that counts as release day. 29.2 preorders were february releases. Not march.
Though I agree 21.3 is the likely preorder date. I was somewhat waiting sisters to be 21 and 28 for preorders but gw pulled surprise move there putting them before PA AND having 8 kits at once. Had they been 21 and 28 for preorder though would have fulfilled gw's promise of all in march. All would be in preorder in march.
Hello there! I'm wanting to take my boys to non-gw tournaments and after delaying it for long enough I'm looking to finally make the switch to 32mm bases. I have well over 200 boys that need doing so are looking for the most economical/quick way. How have you guys coped? Cheers
There's a company or two that sells ring adapters to move 25MM up to 32MM rounds. Here's one site there's another that makes them in MDF, can't find it just now.
https://www.eccentricminiatures.com/adapterrings.html
Automatically Appended Next Post: Here's another one MDF rings. Bulk deal looks good.
generally unless they require it at said tourny i dont think anybody has made the change.
I sure havnt. Im not rebasing 300+ models. That is a lot more time/money than people realize.
So Long, Uncontrolled Bursts used on a Chinork potentially confers a hit modifier to the passengers.
Couple things I’d like to clarify:
1) does this prevent that? From the FAQ
Do Stratagems used on a Transport affect units embarked within that transport? For example, if I use More Dakka! on
a Battlewagon, do any units embarked inside benefit from it? In addition, can you use Stratagems on units embarked within a transport (e.g. can you use Showin’ Off on a Bad Moons Infantry unit embarked within a Battlewagon)?
A: No to both.
2) The trigger is if the Chinork targets a flying unit. Does that mean once it fires, the units inside can target any units for a bonus attack or just flying units?
That faq is specifically talking about Stratagems in general, such as "More Dakka" not transferring. Open Topped still transfers modifiers, so while theyre not affected by the stratagem/aura they still get the +1 since its a modifier on the transport.
I forget the exact wording on Uncontrolled Bursts. Does it say "use this when fly targets fly, that unit gets +1 to hit until the end of the phase" or "...+1 to hit when targeting fliers"
A conditional modifier wouldnt transfer because it wouldnt be actively in effect if the unit inside is firing, since it requires the transport to be firing to set it off. But if that +1 lasts the phase, golden.
Vineheart01 wrote: That faq is specifically talking about Stratagems in general, such as "More Dakka" not transferring.
Open Topped still transfers modifiers, so while theyre not affected by the stratagem/aura they still get the +1 since its a modifier on the transport.
I forget the exact wording on Uncontrolled Bursts. Does it say "use this when fly targets fly, that unit gets +1 to hit until the end of the phase" or "...+1 to hit when targeting fliers"
A conditional modifier wouldnt transfer because it wouldnt be actively in effect if the unit inside is firing, since it requires the transport to be firing to set it off. But if that +1 lasts the phase, golden.
So if I understand this correctly, the way I should think of it is:
Both transport and passengers gain an ability where by if they target a flying unit, they get +1 to hit.
This might all be moot in 2 months anyway. FW codex are last chance to buy. Wonder if the Chinork gets the axe :(
No, the unit inside wouldnt get it because its a conditional effect not a flat modifier.
Open Topped does not transfer rules, otherwise stratagems and auras WOULD affect them. It transfers static modifiers, which Uncontrolled Bursts is not a static modifier (i.e. once its applied its there until the end of the phase or later).
If the modifier goes away because the unit is no longer targeting a specific unit, no transfer.
Its annoying, and people will fight you tooth and nail for the 1 rule that does work (freeboota aura +1 to hit is a static modifier and does transfer once the transport has it at all) because of that stupid stratagem faq, no matter how much you state the stratagem/aura is not being transferred, the specific effect is.
I wish they'd revamp how embarked units work. The ruling that theyre "technically not there" is beyond stupid and breaks way too many molds.
Use this Stratagem at the start of your Shooting phase. Select an ORK VEHICLE unit from your army that can FLY. Until the end of the phase, add 1 to hit rolls for shooting attacks made by that unit that target enemy units that can FLY.
"Use this Stratagem at the start of your Shooting phase. Select an ORK VEHICLE unit from your army that can
FLY. Until the end of the phase, add 1 to hit rolls for
shooting attacks made by that unit that target enemy units
that can FLY."
Vineheart01 wrote: generally unless they require it at said tourny i dont think anybody has made the change.
I sure havnt. Im not rebasing 300+ models. That is a lot more time/money than people realize.
The adapter ring route really isn't too bad if you buy in bulk. It took me $22 and probably 6 hours to get all of the rings on my 90+ boys.
its all a confusing mess, i dunno how many times i've emailed GW about open-topped. But i dont think LUB transfers, since it only gives the +1 when "that unit targets a unit that can FLY" - the embarked unit is not "that unit" so it cant trigger the +1 to get transferred, since with that wording it goes away if they are not actively targeting a FLY unit. And the condition is the stratagem itself anyway, which is specifically denied transferring to the embarked unit.
Vineheart01 wrote: its all a confusing mess, i dunno how many times i've emailed GW about open-topped.
But i dont think LUB transfers, since it only gives the +1 when "that unit targets a unit that can FLY" - the embarked unit is not "that unit" so it cant trigger the +1 to get transferred, since with that wording it goes away if they are not actively targeting a FLY unit.
And the condition is the stratagem itself anyway, which is specifically denied transferring to the embarked unit.
Yeah that’s why I want to get the order of operations here right.
And why I’m confused. So does the Chinork need to go first and it’s fine until end of phase? But does the modifier drop as soon as the shooting sequence ends?
The effect "when you target a fly" lasts the phase, but you are no longer targeting a unit that can fly when you are done shooting so the +1 goes away correct.
Vineheart01 wrote: The effect "when you target a fly" lasts the phase, but you are no longer targeting a unit that can fly when you are done shooting so the +1 goes away correct.
Anyone got an argument otherwise?
Sounds like a case where the unit gets the bonus hit but never gets a chance to use it. Boo.
I seem to remember everyone's favorite rules lawyer (I actually mean that sincerely and not in a snarky manner) BaconCatBug ruled against it transferring to the occupants of the chinork. This was back around a month or so after the Ork codex so that post is probably still somewhere in this thread.
But yeah, I'd assume it doesn't work so confer with your opponent/TO before actually trying to use it
The only open-topped transferring effect i will fight tooth and nail for is Freeboota +1 and any -1 to hit debuff that targets the vehicle (such as the Venator from Forgeworld, if a vehicle it shot suffers a wound it has a -1 to hit)
Those are constant modifiers that are always there once applied for a phase/turn. Only others i can think of are like LUB where its a specific condition while that unit is actively doing something.
One of the few times i played solid freeboota i tried to say this was a thing and my opponent (who ironically had a venator) tried to dispute it, and then immediately claim the -1 applies to the embarked unit too. Picked up my models and walked away refusing to play him again, hate people who selectively approve of rules.
Freeboota aura is no question from me. If the trukk gets the bonus, the passengers do, and you can *easily* make the argument. If the trukk also gets a negative, they also do. It even makes sense from RAI (if something is affecting the trukk, you'd think the passengers would also be affected).
This was an odd edge case. LUB was probably not written with the Chinork in mind. It was also just a nice side benefit of what I'd consider a useful transport (it honestly just makes some units insanely powerful if they could get a cheap +1 to hit vs flyers).
Vineheart01 wrote: generally unless they require it at said tourny i dont think anybody has made the change.
I sure havnt. Im not rebasing 300+ models. That is a lot more time/money than people realize.
The adapter ring route really isn't too bad if you buy in bulk. It took me $22 and probably 6 hours to get all of the rings on my 90+ boys.
It's not just bases though but also movement trays. And some basing systems are hard to extend from already made base to other without looking silly or being extra hard.
Also do people really use movement trays for melee armies? i find them irritating when assaults are involved. I use them for my admech because it makes keeping the dozen or so 5x squads separated at a glance, but they generally never see melee. Tried it on my boyz once and it just irritated me to no end.
edit: and i dont feel bogged by moving tons of boyz. Just lay a short ruler infront of the furthest up boy and with both hands move the entire squad up appropriately. I spend 10x more time rolling Shoota damage via Badmoonz than i do moving lol
Also do people really use movement trays for melee armies? i find them irritating when assaults are involved.
I use them for my admech because it makes keeping the dozen or so 5x squads separated at a glance, but they generally never see melee. Tried it on my boyz once and it just irritated me to no end.
Nope, over 13 years of playing Orkz I have mastered the art of moving mobs of boys super fast, I have never found in an arduous task
Also, movement trays can easily be printed and tbh if you're a big wargamer you really should have a printer anyway.
Not talking about printing models either. What literally talked me into getting one was "wait...i can print my terrain..." - prior to that thought i was just "oh its the new fancy tech you arent going to do anything practical with it"
ive since dumped quite a few bits of terrain at the local store and theyre used so much i have people asking me to make more lol. Crates especially are popular.
Ive seen the prices people want for trays. No thanks lol.
I use GW's apoc trays, they work quite well, look good and are unexpectedly fairly priced. It speeds up moving orks and pox walkers so much, I wouldn't to miss them. When an assault comes up, you can either move the entire base into combat, or, if it matters, just move the models out.
For gretchin, I don't use trays, because it usually doesn't matter whether I move them accurately.
Yeah when rocking the boyz hordes I tend to run 20 in the trays with little blobs of bluetack to keep em stuck in, then 10 around the edges for fine manuvering and casualties not in units of 5. Makes things fairly fast. Sides, the ork horde is about attrition not finess.
In terms of the trays depth. are they deep enough to secure the model or is that one offender who got modeled leaning forward a bit too much and or is top heavy going to keep falling off the tray?
Maybe its because a lot of my ork bases are the slotted variety and are slightly smaller but the apoc templates dont hold 90% of them at all. They flop out when i attempt to move them.
Only time i ever use'm is in apoc games, since everything is strictly unit-wide so squeezing every boy into melee doesnt do anything.
This is second hand, so forgive me if anything is inaccurate.
From someone who saw the Ghaz profile.
1) 12 Wound Monster. NOT infantry.
2) Can only take at most 4 damage a phase. IE: You can shoot him for 4 wounds, then do 4 wounds in the fight phase.
3) Gun is 12 shots, -1 AP, D1.
4) Klaw is str x2, ap-4, D4.
5) Gains more attacks as he goes through his wound profile, apparently 7 attacks at the bottom tier.
6) Does not recall seeing if he is Goff locked.
Honestly, if this is true alone, the fact he's targetable, can't go into buildings, and is a monster probably makes him uncompetitive, if he stays at 235.
Jidmah wrote: I use GW's apoc trays, they work quite well, look good and are unexpectedly fairly priced. It speeds up moving orks and pox walkers so much, I wouldn't to miss them. When an assault comes up, you can either move the entire base into combat, or, if it matters, just move the models out.
For gretchin, I don't use trays, because it usually doesn't matter whether I move them accurately.
I got the Apoc trays after you suggested them previously in the thread. Bloody brilliant! Great recommendation there!
tulun wrote: This is second hand, so forgive me if anything is inaccurate.
From someone who saw the Ghaz profile.
1) 12 Wound Monster. NOT infantry.
2) Can only take at most 4 damage a phase. IE: You can shoot him for 4 wounds, then do 4 wounds in the fight phase.
3) Gun is 12 shots, -1 AP, D1.
4) Klaw is str x2, ap-4, D4.
5) Gains more attacks as he goes through his wound profile, apparently 7 attacks at the bottom tier.
6) Does not recall seeing if he is Goff locked.
Honestly, if this is true alone, the fact he's targetable, can't go into buildings, and is a monster probably makes him uncompetitive, if he stays at 235.
If 2 is true (we will know soon), he would be almost unkillable if supported by a doc. 1d3 healeded per turn +1d3 with the medisquig.
tulun wrote: This is second hand, so forgive me if anything is inaccurate.
From someone who saw the Ghaz profile.
1) 12 Wound Monster. NOT infantry.
2) Can only take at most 4 damage a phase. IE: You can shoot him for 4 wounds, then do 4 wounds in the fight phase.
3) Gun is 12 shots, -1 AP, D1.
4) Klaw is str x2, ap-4, D4.
5) Gains more attacks as he goes through his wound profile, apparently 7 attacks at the bottom tier.
6) Does not recall seeing if he is Goff locked.
Honestly, if this is true alone, the fact he's targetable, can't go into buildings, and is a monster probably makes him uncompetitive, if he stays at 235.
Hmmm. Max 4 damage a phase could be interesting. Problem is psychic phase can be quite damaging these days too. If he's T8 perhaps there's legs? Will have to see aura buffs and movement. The D4 damage klaw with up to 7 attacks is OK, but I'd expect something more. He needs more value add at his current price tag.
tulun wrote: This is second hand, so forgive me if anything is inaccurate.
From someone who saw the Ghaz profile.
1) 12 Wound Monster. NOT infantry.
2) Can only take at most 4 damage a phase. IE: You can shoot him for 4 wounds, then do 4 wounds in the fight phase.
3) Gun is 12 shots, -1 AP, D1.
4) Klaw is str x2, ap-4, D4.
5) Gains more attacks as he goes through his wound profile, apparently 7 attacks at the bottom tier.
6) Does not recall seeing if he is Goff locked.
Honestly, if this is true alone, the fact he's targetable, can't go into buildings, and is a monster probably makes him uncompetitive, if he stays at 235.
If 2 is true (we will know soon), he would be almost unkillable if supported by a doc. 1d3 healeded per turn +1d3 with the medisquig.
That is what I initially thought but docs can only heal infantry or bikers can’t they ?
Doesn't Morathi have that in AoS, you're only "allowed" to deal a certain amount of wounds to her every single turn? It's an odd solution and TBH is those are his stats it's probably pretty easy to just put 2 lascannons into him every shooting phase and then focus the rest of the firepower elsewhere.
Him getting stronger at the bottom tier is what I've suggested before and I actually like hat solution but it is another AoS thing so if this is true then they're muddying those lines between systems a bit.
In any case, 4 damage per phase might be a winner here. Most armies that can do well in the psychic phase usually lack shooting or melee, and he'll most likely still be 2+/4++, so they have to work for those 4 damage.
Medi-squig can be used on any character (for example the wartrike), but docs are limited to infantry and bikes only.
"Not recalling seeing him goff locked" pretty much means that he didn't get any rule which unlocks him though...
In any case, 4 damage per phase might be a winner here. Most armies that can do well in the psychic phase usually lack shooting or melee, and he'll most likely still be 2+/4++, so they have to work for those 4 damage.
Medi-squig can be used on any character (for example the wartrike), but docs are limited to infantry and bikes only.
"Not recalling seeing him goff locked" pretty much means that he didn't get any rule which unlocks him though...
Hang fire on the Goff lock, GW surely wouldn't be that stupid and the source is completely unverified.
But isn't she still way more useful for one sept than the others? That's the criticism I've read, that while she's available to anyone she's still only really worth taking in her original sept
Jidmah wrote: Yeah thought so - that's pretty hard to miss if you manged to pick up everything else. So either the rumor is BS or he remains goff locked.
I don't know. Could be bs. Could just be they only saw a snippet. I mean we don't have toughness or any other stats than wounds. We have no aura abilities.
Unless Ghaz' can reliably dish out similar damage to other targetable characters or unless he has some insane buffs he will never see play. He's not going to be a psyker which already limits his potential usefulness. Monster doesn't help (and I think this is likely, given his size).
To be honest I'm fully expecting Ghaz' to be worse than his current iteration. GW aren't great at their balancing of Ork units. He will sell regardles though, the model is just too good.
His damage isn't terrible though. With his 5+1 attacks and the rumored klaw he would already be in daemon primarch territory, and he can be buffed with fists of gork independently of his keywords. Same is true for orks is never beaten and the tellyporta. We would be losing out on fighting twice though, but I have never needed that with the current Ghaz, I doubt we would need it often for the new one.
Giving him the monster keyword is just the sort of thing they'd do.
A 4 wound per phase limit seems unlikely unless he's specifically carved out from the tellyporta strat...a model with that sort of damage limitation that you can start off the table and drop into combat with a ~60% success chance seems really problematic.
Acquaintance I know. Friend of a friend (part of a local group chat on Facebook I'm in). Claims someone showed him a preview of the book, wasn't allowed to take a picture, though.
Medisquig is a good point. I think you'd have to feed him wounds in this fashion, as I can't imagine he's more than M6 (Deff Dreads are M6). If they aren't heading right for you, slogging might be a turn 3 charge, and that's with aggressive placement.
Tellyporta might be good, but that's a lot to bank on getting that charge. With this supposed statline, he's probably at LEAST his current cost.
Automatically Appended Next Post: If Makari is an HQ and both are Goff locked, maybe this will create the Ghaz 32.
If Makari is like 30 points, and he actually improves the morale of those 30 grots to LD6, I could see that not being terrible. Make decent objective campers and you don't lose out on Ghaz's kultur.
LD 6 does nothing for gretchin. I frequently run da red gobbo who also has that aura. It might have saved two or three gretchin across ten games, but no more.
Let's home he doesn't have a "takes no slot" rule, then 30+235 might actually be a decent investment for an HQ slot.
I'm gonna take this leak with a grain of salt. Friend of a friend who has no physical evidence to back up their claim is right in "my uncle who works for Nintendo told me there's a code to give Link a gun in Zelda" territory. These sorts of things are exactly what gets a rumor mill going: a fairly plausible "leak" from an unverified source.
That said, assuming all this is true, I'd like to see Ghaz get better in every way as he goes down the Wound brackets, not just in attacks. A sort of thing where, as he's injured, he gradually loses his cockiness and starts to take the fight seriously.
Also, assuming he loses his Goff lock is able to be a Warlord, would he still be locked into the Goff Trait?
He's a named character and those guys have set warlord traits so I assume he'd still be locked into a specific one. However, they might change the one he's locked into I suppose..
Yeah, that's my point. There's some value of him going from AP-3 to AP-4. If his klaw is AP-4 just on his statline when new ghaz comes out, it'd go to AP-5 on the charge with that WT. That's basically no added value whatsoever
Yea because AP5 only strips 2+ native saves completely and except for MANz everything with a native 2+ armor save has an invul backing it up (iirc)
The 4 wounds per phase is suspect....that feels like the kind of bullcrap they'd give a space marine not an ork.
Being a monster is actually really annoying because Dok Tools does not include monster. Unless he has a native FNP, we cannot give him one via painboy and painboys cannot heal him. Which would make 0 sense given how much Grotsnik has repaired this guy, yet cant heal him in game...?
Really hope those arent the truths about his stats. If thats how he is, even if he isnt goff locked, probably not going to be able to use him. You'd be FORCED to Tellyport him because otherwise hes going to be half dead since he cant embark as a Monster and i doubt he's any faster than 6" movement at best (probably still 5"). And of course if you tellyport him auspex is a thing as well as all the 12" deployment restrictions.
Centurions would be an ideal target since they have 4 wounds, a 2+ save and no invuln but other than that, MANZ and the IK with the 2+ save relic it's not doing much
Cents dont have an invul? tbh i dont think ive ever hit them with an AP4 or better weapon to find out lol.
Also theyre rare in my area anyway. For some reason. I actually like them, if i had a marine army id have some even if they werent the current flavor for smurfs tactics.
The 4 wounds per phase is suspect....that feels like the kind of bullcrap they'd give a space marine not an ork.
Being a monster is actually really annoying because Dok Tools does not include monster. Unless he has a native FNP, we cannot give him one via painboy and painboys cannot heal him. Which would make 0 sense given how much Grotsnik has repaired this guy, yet cant heal him in game...?
I'm wondering if they'll amend Dok Tools to affect monsters. Never made any sense to me a Painboy couldn't try to heal a Squiggoth, and literally in fiction, Grotsnik fixes him up.
Medisquig still works though. Unfortunately, it's <CLAN> locked, so the painboy would need to be a Goff.
Funny side note: Technically, if you make the Stompa a character, it also can be healed with Medisquig. How the hell does that makes sense!
The main issue is, without something like this, he's already useless. If he can be shot off the board in 1 turn Ghazzy is DOA.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Taking 4 max wounds a phase would still see Ghaz getting butchered in a turn, being 9 wounds and still being under character protection is a heck of a lot better than that.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Taking 4 max wounds a phase would still see Ghaz getting butchered in a turn, being 9 wounds and still being under character protection is a heck of a lot better than that.
He's closing in on Wraithlord size from the pics. They decided to make him a chonky boy, at some point it's hard to call him under 10 wounds. We've been expecting he might be above 10 with some mechanic to try and keep him alive longer.
I believe this mechanic also exists in AoS, so it's not unprecedented.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Taking 4 max wounds a phase would still see Ghaz getting butchered in a turn, being 9 wounds and still being under character protection is a heck of a lot better than that.
He's closing in on Wraithlord size from the pics. They decided to make him a chonky boy, at some point it's hard to call him under 10 wounds. We've been expecting he might be above 10 with some mechanic to try and keep him alive longer.
I believe this mechanic also exists in AoS, so it's not unprecedented.
Until we get a confirmed leak, or until GW shows us. Id take most leaks with a grain of salt. Hhe very well could be 10+ wounds or he could be like Guilliman who isnt higher than 9. Halving damage against him would be a better mechanic to have whilst being 9 wounds as it would give him effectively double the wounds vs damage 2.
If he's tough enough (T7 or 8), and keeps his 4++, he could probably do fine with a 12 W, max of 4 Damage per phase. At the very least, that's a significant portion of your opponent's firepower devoted to a single model, which gives other units like Gorks, Dreadz, and other chonky boiz a little more breathing room.
If he IS this way, I (sadly) can't recommend him for an Infantry list. You'll have to go mixed or Armor, otherwise he just becomes the only viable target for anti-armor.
I still hope it's more than just his Attacks improving as he takes damage. A Ghaz who gets deadlier to more you hurt him would be awesome.
Until we get a confirmed leak, or until GW shows us. Id take most leaks with a grain of salt. Hhe very well could be 10+ wounds or he could be like Guilliman who isnt higher than 9. Halving damage against him would be a better mechanic to have whilst being 9 wounds as it would give him effectively double the wounds vs damage 2.
It's fine to be skeptical, but making the argument that a certain ruleset would be better is not an argument this set of rules is wrong.
Has anyone done a side by side comparison with him and someone like Guilliman? seems like he's bigger at a glance.
flandarz wrote:
If he's tough enough (T7 or 8), and keeps his 4++, he could probably do fine with a 12 W, max of 4 Damage per phase. At the very least, that's a significant portion of your opponent's firepower devoted to a single model, which gives other units like Gorks, Dreadz, and other chonky boiz a little more breathing room.
If he IS this way, I (sadly) can't recommend him for an Infantry list. You'll have to go mixed or Armor, otherwise he just becomes the only viable target for anti-armor.
I still hope it's more than just his Attacks improving as he takes damage. A Ghaz who gets deadlier to more you hurt him would be awesome.
Maybe in a MANz list? MANz are not really efficiently killed by small arms fire anyway. But yeah, if he's your only big target, every anti tank weapon will be tossed his way. I hope he finally get a proper FnP, he's the literal definition of a Cybork.
Ghaz is way, waaaay bigger than Guilliman. G-man is on a 60mm base and is just a large space marine. Ghaz is either on an 80 or 90mm base and much wider. He's probably three times the amount of plastic
Personally i think the character above 10w rule needs to just go away. Theres tons of ways to delete a model once its that close, plus it would help tyranids a ton who really need a bit of help anyway.
The whole degrading thing should be enough of a drawback to being that beefy, and it would prevent sillyness like Gman and Ghaz having less than 10 wounds when they really, really should have more.
But, i dont expect any core rule changes until 9th drops.
Vineheart01 wrote: Personally i think the character above 10w rule needs to just go away. Theres tons of ways to delete a model once its that close, plus it would help tyranids a ton who really need a bit of help anyway.
The whole degrading thing should be enough of a drawback to being that beefy, and it would prevent sillyness like Gman and Ghaz having less than 10 wounds when they really, really should have more.
But, i dont expect any core rule changes until 9th drops.
Not to mention most models their size makes it near impossible to hide anyways, the only thing I would make an exception for are titanic models like Knights (character rule shouldn't let a screen of dinky guardsmen prevent you from shooting them) or maybe make it so it's closer to AoS, where they get a -1 to hit modifier to shooting attacks targeted towards them if they are within 3" of a unit with 5 (maybe 10?) models or more.
Vineheart01 wrote: Personally i think the character above 10w rule needs to just go away. Theres tons of ways to delete a model once its that close, plus it would help tyranids a ton who really need a bit of help anyway.
The whole degrading thing should be enough of a drawback to being that beefy, and it would prevent sillyness like Gman and Ghaz having less than 10 wounds when they really, really should have more.
But, i dont expect any core rule changes until 9th drops.
Not to mention most models their size makes it near impossible to hide anyways, the only thing I would make an exception for are titanic models like Knights (character rule shouldn't let a screen of dinky guardsmen prevent you from shooting them) or maybe make it so it's closer to AoS, where they get a -1 to hit modifier to shooting attacks targeted towards them if they are within 3" of a unit with 5 (maybe 10?) models or more.
Agreed, knights would be an exception, or any titanic (i.e. our stompa character in a Stompa Mob shouldnt be protected)
It makes sense for an utterly massive character to not be protected. 10w is pretty dang low though.
PiñaColada wrote: Nice, tulun! Seems you were right or this is a solid fake
Given the art too, quite a fake.
Not Goff locked.
I’m thinking the best way is the tellyporta. I think infantry style can work, you’re just focusing on a turn 2 charge, and hoping he makes that 60% charge.
Maybe like 2-3 squads of kommandos coming out of DS, supported by Stormboyz and a Da Jumped / ran up unit?
Hmm, that's dissapointing. 14pl translates to about 280pts ish
Gorks roar also, meh.
I was hoping for some built in teleporta. The auras are a bit pump too, only affecting Goffs.
Great model, will definitely buy, but it's only coming out for fun games.
He gives rerolls in to Goffs so he's still better with them but even with him being the only goff it's still good. I'm slightly sad that he has just 5 attacks in top bracket though. And, not that it's super important, that he's only S5 in the last bracket
I look forward to the "Gaz can only take 4 wounds total from shooting over the course of a game" arguments, as it doesn't specify each phase of each turn.
Still, at least that buys you two turns of using him before he gets gunned down, and that 7" move is faster than I expected.
Mork'z Roar is kinda disappointing. Unless you're shooting Gretchin or Guardsmen, it probably ain't killing nothing. And we're Primaris saturated.
Gork'z Klaw ain't bad, but kinda just cements Ghaz as a vehicle/monster killer. Which can be a problem with his degrading Strength, even with his extra attacks. And considering his gun is better suited to chaff, he's in kind of a weird spot for fitting into your list.
Makes me wish Ramming Speed included Monsters.
The inclusion of Stikkbommz is weird since Mork'z Roar is better in every way and can be used in every situation they can be used in.
Still, he appears to be fairly durable and pretty fast (for an Ork), even if you footslog him, he can probably still put in some work.
PL 14 is 2 higher than his "current" PL, and 1 less than a Gorkanaut/Morkanaut, so he's probably gonna be around 290-300 pts.
No FNP, and Painboyz won't be able to help him. :(
Don't pair him with Kommandos or StormBoyz. They seek different targets than he does. Da Jump up some Klaw Nobz or MANz, and utterly decimate a vehicle.
PiñaColada wrote: He gives rerolls in to Goffs so he's still better with them but even with him being the only goff it's still good. I'm slightly sad that he has just 5 attacks in top bracket though. And, not that it's super important, that he's only S5 in the last bracket
At first I was disappointed at the S5 but then realised that it affects little because S10 is approximately as good as S14 and it's only on the last 1-2 wounds.
The non-Goff locked is huge, for me at least as a loser fluffy player.
The max 4 wounds a phase is real interesting and I'm sure it can be used to cause some major issues for certain factions.
Not sure the Goff bonus will be any good without Goffs receiving some serious other buff(s).
So Doks don't work on him at all, which I think is dumb......but Grot Shields do.....?!!!?!
Unless they revamp the Goff Kultur, it still ain't worth taking it. The Goff Warlord trait though? That might be good. And because Ghaz is still a Goff character, you can take it even if the Detachment he's in isn't Goff.
PiñaColada wrote: Wait, Ghaz doesn't give himself advance and charge? WTHGW!
Yeah, that is going to HAVE to be FAQed or get out of here.
The 4 wound cap might be the savior and admittedly the Goff only aura is kind of throwaway, especially if you're using tellyporta it doesn't even really matter since it should still affect Ghaz himself, meaning he rerolls all failed hit rolls.
This SOB could murk anything in close combat with wounds to spare. Imagine a knight inflicting 4 wounds in a round of combat. Youch.
Also worth noting, you can't use the double-swing strategem on him because he isn't infantry, just like the Warboss on Warbike. Seriously hampers his utility (e.g. oneshotting Knights, etc).
Yeah, if they fix advance&charge (and hopefully fight twice) to both work on <monster> as well then he seems pretty fun. If advance&charge is gone then he has no choice than tellyporta in every single game
Makari granting a 6+++ for Ghaz and adjacent units is useful. However pl3 puts him in the same bracket as a painboy, I'd rather that and have the ability to heal my meganobz.
PiñaColada wrote: Yeah, if they fix advance&charge (and hopefully fight twice) to both work on <monster> as well then he seems pretty fun. If advance&charge is gone then he has no choice than tellyporta in every single game
I highly doubt fight twice will be changed. Gulliman and Mortarion lose out on almost all their factions' stratagems as well.
I also realized how absolutely insane skarboy's melee capabilities have become - each model has 4 attacks S5, exploding sixes, hit on 2+ with banner, re-roll ones with Thrakka and 6+++ with Makari... and they are still crap because they'll never cross the table
Jidmah wrote: I also realized how absolutely insane skarboy's melee capabilities have become - each model has 4 attacks S5, exploding sixes, hit on 2+ with banner, re-roll ones with Thrakka and 6+++ with Makari... and they are still crap because they'll never cross the table
Do we tellyporta them in with Ghaz? Ride on Bonebreakas?
Just realised the "Goffs is best" rule affects ALL GOFF units.
Just like GW to pricehyke a new/revamped unit that was already overpriced, yet not even touch the cost to marines when they get a ton of free stuff suddenly. Unless the PL ratio is WAY off he's ~280pts....are you serious right now GW? Not even Cawl is remotely that much and he will do far more work than Ghaz can with this profile.
He's still goff-locked, you have 0 reason to run him w/o the Makari around for the FNP. Not even Grotsnik can heal him...utter garbage...
And...no adv+charge...? wat...da...feth gw? How's his own ability just happen to not affect him? i swear they forgot our gak doesnt work on monsters. And i was seriously hoping his +1 attack aura would either lose the charge requirement or work on "heroic intervention" at least. Nope, marines get +1 attack if any charge happened (them, against them, or HI) and ours is denied even on HI. Wtf...
I expected him to be mediocre, i did not expect him to be complete unusable garbage.
edit: Also i just noticed something. is it just me, or does he not have the "Goff warlord trait" requirement if warlord?
Jidmah wrote: I also realized how absolutely insane skarboy's melee capabilities have become - each model has 4 attacks S5, exploding sixes, hit on 2+ with banner, re-roll ones with Thrakka and 6+++ with Makari... and they are still crap because they'll never cross the table
Do we tellyporta them in with Ghaz? Ride on Bonebreakas?
Just realised the "Goffs is best" rule affects ALL GOFF units.
Eh, you really can't. I usually run the goff skarboyz list against newer players with small collections. If they connect in combat, they really evaporate anything they touch, but a well built list just clears them as fast as they're coming. You simply don't get the time to move twice and then charge in this edition.
Bonebreakas only transport 12 models, maybe Thrakka is enough to make units this small kill something, but I doubt so. Then again, goff bonebreakas are pretty scary themselves. If they ever drop in points or if we can charge out of transports again things might change though.
As for tellyporting, anything you do would just be inferior to doing the same with evil suns.
I'd wait to see how he actually plays before calling him "complete, unusable garbage". You could bring him and Makari in a Vanguard Detachment, backed by Nobz or MANz, and they could really clean house on a vehicle heavy list.
Jidmah wrote: Bonebreakas only transport 12 models, maybe Thrakka is enough to make units this small kill something, but I doubt so. Then again, goff bonebreakas are pretty scary themselves. If they ever drop in points or if we can charge out of transports again things might change though..
I was thinking of using that strat to ride on them, I think it's from the Blitz Brigade detachment.
Jidmah wrote: Bonebreakas only transport 12 models, maybe Thrakka is enough to make units this small kill something, but I doubt so. Then again, goff bonebreakas are pretty scary themselves. If they ever drop in points or if we can charge out of transports again things might change though..
I was thinking of using that strat to ride on them, I think it's from the Blitz Brigade detachment.
True, you could drag along 30 scarboys and have some more to mob up inside. Add another mob to jump and some stormboyz with Zagstrukk... *disappears to the drawing board*
PiñaColada wrote: The required warlord trait is never mentioned on the character datasheet AFAIK though. It's mentioned in the same place as the actual warlord traits
Huh? EVERY named character in any codex says a specific warlord trait if theyre the warlord. Im not aware of one that doesnt do that.
PiñaColada wrote: The required warlord trait is never mentioned on the character datasheet AFAIK though. It's mentioned in the same place as the actual warlord traits
Huh? EVERY named character in any codex says a specific warlord trait if theyre the warlord. Im not aware of one that doesnt do that.
Yes, but it doesn't say what it is on the datasheet. It says which one they're required to have in the section where the actual warlord traits are described.
PiñaColada wrote: Yeah, if they fix advance&charge (and hopefully fight twice) to both work on <monster> as well then he seems pretty fun. If advance&charge is gone then he has no choice than tellyporta in every single game
I highly doubt fight twice will be changed. Gulliman and Mortarion lose out on almost all their factions' stratagems as well.
I also realized how absolutely insane skarboy's melee capabilities have become - each model has 4 attacks S5, exploding sixes, hit on 2+ with banner, re-roll ones with Thrakka and 6+++ with Makari... and they are still crap because they'll never cross the table
That's why I just can't even. It killed me when the codex was coming out and a bunch of people were doing mathhammer on 30 man boyz mobs with a bajillion buffs in a vacuum as if that was ever a thing.
5" movement speed just sucks.
flandarz wrote: IYou could bring him and Makari in a Vanguard Detachment, backed by Nobz or MANz, and they could really clean house on a vehicle heavy list.
How, man. They'd have to walk. Through a gunline. For multiple turns.
Ghaz could survive because of his ability, but he's still footslogging. Slowly.
I wonder if they're gonna replace the Goff Relic, now that Makari is back.
Automatically Appended Next Post: To be fair, it's 5"+1d6" and they can still charge if you bring Ghaz or a Warboss along (and are willing to suffer that -1 to hit with your Shootaz), which ain't terrible.
The real problem is that Boyz will always either overkill their CC targets, leaving themselves open to attack, or they won't even dent it (in the case of most vehicles). There's really no in-between.
flandarz wrote: I wonder if they're gonna replace the Goff Relic, now that Makari is back.
Automatically Appended Next Post: To be fair, it's 5"+1d6" and they can still charge if you bring Ghaz or a Warboss along (and are willing to suffer that -1 to hit with your Shootaz), which ain't terrible.
The real problem is that Boyz will always either overkill their CC targets, leaving themselves open to attack, or they won't even dent it (in the case of most vehicles). There's really no in-between.
5"+1d6" is an average of 8.5". With a green tide you could have enough board presence to box someone in, but there is shooting now to remove buckets of boyz a turn.
Ghaz can't assault after running. So he's moving 7" +1d6" for two-three turns but has to make it within 7"+2D6" to charge.
That's kind of slow and has no offensive capability until you're in charge range.
The overkill is the main reason i view skarboyz as dumb.
Goff boosts skills that orks dont need help in. Even badmoonz shoota boyz (at best 3 attacks each if 20+ models) dish out enough damage to kill whatever they charged and then get stuck out in the open.
Wouldnt be as bad is 'Ardboyz was 4+ like it used to be.
