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Post by: flandarz
To be fair, Ghaz isn't going to be fighting the same stuff that Boyz are, so having them rush up the board, wipe a Chaff unit, and clear the way for Ghaz is fine. He doesn't need to get stuck in with the same stuff the Boyz are fighting. He can wait a turn.
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Post by: TedNugent
 flandarz wrote:To be fair, Ghaz isn't going to be fighting the same stuff that Boyz are, so having them rush up the board, wipe a Chaff unit, and clear the way for Ghaz is fine. He doesn't need to get stuck in with the same stuff the Boyz are fighting. He can wait a turn.
Units have to be within 6" to get the +1 attack as well. That's not negligible...
Perhaps you could close the distance by running him out front with the 7" movement speed or run him up to the boyz for a turn.
Also, waiting a turn to use a 250+ point unit that already had to spend 2 turns doing nothing but walking?
They really need to FAQ this so that he is affected by Waaagh.
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Post by: Esper
So, if I'm not mistaken:
1) Ghaz and Makari are two different units, so you would need to Tellyporta them separately.
2) Ghaz has no exploding 6's if added to a non-Goff detachment.
3) "Goff is da best" would apply to himself?
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Post by: flandarz
Well, he has a gun. Granted, it's practically just for show, but he'll do more than walking.
If your Boyz really need that +1 Attack, you might be charging the wrong units. I've never had a base Boy unit that still had a reasonable number of models fail to wipe out any chaff you throw them against. That +1 is really more useful for Ghaz.
I agree he needs to be affected by his own Waagh. The argument was that Boyz were too slow (which, granted, they are. But they can be decently quick if you abuse Advance like you should), and the insinuation that Ghaz should be charging alongside the Boyz (he really shouldn't. At best he'll take out six or so models. He really needs to be targeting Vehicles and Monsters).
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Post by: Vineheart01
Except he cant get the +1 attack so its 100% only for nearby ork infantry, i.e. boyz, nobz, meganobz.
None of which actually need it to kill what theyre going after, all of which are incredibly difficult to get into melee within 6" of him as it is and now even harder since he cant be in the wagon the nobz showed up in.
We can still "Fist of Gork" him to make him nastier, but my experience is once a weirdboy gets even remotely close to the front line it dies immediately.
So far everything i can think of to use him is eating a ton of cp...for something i can do already anyway
Why isnt the "Great Waaagh" just flatout Ork Unit anyway? The biggest and baddest Waagh should work on everything...period
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Post by: flandarz
Granted. Ugh... I really hope they FAQ that.
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Post by: Tiberius501
Apart from the things that need to be FAQed, my only disappointment really is that he doesn’t have a melee profile to kill hordes. No dmg spills over or extra, weaker attacks he can choose to do... much sadness.
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Post by: Gruxz
A unit of Goff dreads and ghazzy would be pretty neat I think. Makari gives them all 6+fnp and ghaz gives them reroll 1 to hit.
Makari gives the fnp to units, not infantry, same as ghaz.
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Post by: An Actual Englishman
Not long now lads. No point worrying until we've seen more.
Makari can footslog btw, he isn't targetable.
Don't see the value in taking Ghaz' on foot at all though.
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Post by: Vineheart01
Gruxz wrote:A unit of Goff dreads and ghazzy would be pretty neat I think. Makari gives them all 6+ fnp and ghaz gives them reroll 1 to hit.
Makari gives the fnp to units, not infantry, same as ghaz.
Holy crap a silver lining i totally missed. The makari FNP is universal.
Thats amusing as hell. I might need to do that lol
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Post by: cody.d.
Hmmm. Yeah the new Ghaz is a bit of a disappointment. Outside of tellyport striking him in he will only be seeing combat if the opponants coming to you. Even then that wastes half his abilities and requires an above average charge roll. The only thing we dont know so far is any possible strategems from saga.
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Post by: An Actual Englishman
 Vineheart01 wrote:Gruxz wrote:A unit of Goff dreads and ghazzy would be pretty neat I think. Makari gives them all 6+ fnp and ghaz gives them reroll 1 to hit.
Makari gives the fnp to units, not infantry, same as ghaz.
Holy crap a silver lining i totally missed. The makari FNP is universal.
Thats amusing as hell. I might need to do that lol
Dudes he gives Bonebreakas a 6+++, hence my suggestion earlier of using the Blitz Brigade.
Edit - Although somehat unlikely they stay in his range.
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Post by: gungo
Waaggh needs to work on him
And maybe we can get the rules guys to faq grotsnik to work on him. Since it’s the entire point of ghaz being alive in every story they write
Even w both those changes he’s a funsy character not a competitive choice at 280...
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Post by: Vineheart01
Amusing thought...
Make Makari the warlord. Fits the theme of what they've been doing about Makari being the big bad guy and Ghaz is his sidekick, gets an extra attack for another D3 mortal chance, and have freaking' fun getting slay the warlord off a 2+ invul guy lol.
I havnt seen a Vindicare in eons to say no invul for you snipesnipe dead.
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Post by: gungo
Vineheart01 wrote:Amusing thought...
Make Makari the warlord. Fits the theme of what they've been doing about Makari being the big bad guy and Ghaz is his sidekick, gets an extra attack for another D3 mortal chance, and have freaking' fun getting slay the warlord off a 2+ invul guy lol.
I havnt seen a Vindicare in eons to say no invul for you snipesnipe dead.
2++ and 6+++ he’s going to annoy combat locking units
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Post by: flandarz
I doubt there's many, if any, armies that can reliably deal 4+ Wounds to Ghaz a turn, so even if you footslog him and your opponent goes first, you should have a decent chance to get him into combat with something. He's decently quick with a 7" Move (which he should keep on your first go, even if your opponent goes first, since his first Wound Bracket is 7-12), and you can advance him on the first turn to get him close enough to threaten something on Turn 2 (10.5" average+6" on turn 2+charge range). It's certainly not as good as Tellyporting him in, but it can be done. Which is a lot better than most of our heavy hitters can boast.
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Post by: TedNugent
Gruxz wrote:A unit of Goff dreads and ghazzy would be pretty neat I think. Makari gives them all 6+ fnp and ghaz gives them reroll 1 to hit.
Makari gives the fnp to units, not infantry, same as ghaz.
Now that's a thought...
Add a Kustom Force Field and that unit is pretty damn tough.
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Post by: yukishiro1
So typical GW, they don't even proofread well enough to see that he doesn't give himself the assault and charge ,and then leave him horribly overcosted and underpowered when not run as a Goff.
Why? Just why? Either Goffs stay terrible and he never sees play or they get buffed and then there's no point to Evil Sunz any more and everyone switches over, leaving everybody no better off than before. Except for a lot of repainting.
So you end up with this weird model that really has to be in the tellyporta despite their whole fluff being that he footslogs with Makari, that has to be a faction that doesn't mesh with tellyporta...and then after all that you get a model that's only good at killing stuff (centurions and vehicles) that no smart opponent is going to let you kill.
Basically, you're going to be absolutely slaughtering 50 points worth of chaff models with this guy! Woo hoo!
P.S. If you footslog him he can potentially take 4 in their psychic phase, 4 in their fighting phase, then get charged and die, or charge something on your turn and promptly die to overwatch before even getting a chance to do more than kill ~4-5 chaff models with one round of his cannon. Against armies like Grey Knights or Thousand Sons or Eldar he'll be lucky to even get one round of melee against a speed-bump unless you Tellyporta.
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Post by: Tiberius501
Yeah I hate that he doesn’t get a way to kill hordes. I just wish they’d given him a second profile to get even just 2 attacks for each 1 at the very least.
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Post by: Vineheart01
admittedly if grotsnik could heal ghaz, ghaz would be nearly unkillable.
Unless you could reliably psyker/shoot/assault him every round, Grotsnik + Medisquig = 2D3 heal a turn. Barring some bad luck, that heals faster than he gets hurt.
Still stupid. I'd rather him be untargetable and not have that rule while still having painboys do work on him.
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Post by: TedNugent
yukishiro1 wrote:So typical GW, they don't even proofread well enough to see that he doesn't give himself the assault and charge ,and then leave him horribly overcosted and underpowered when not run as a Goff.
Why? Just why? Either Goffs stay terrible and he never sees play or they get buffed and then there's no point to Evil Sunz any more and everyone switches over, leaving everybody no better off than before. Except for a lot of repainting.
So you end up with this weird model that really has to be in the tellyporta despite their whole fluff being that he footslogs with Makari, that has to be a faction that doesn't mesh with tellyporta...and then after all that you get a model that's only good at killing stuff (centurions and vehicles) that no smart opponent is going to let you kill.
Basically, you're going to be absolutely slaughtering 50 points worth of chaff models with this guy! Woo hoo!
Ideally they FAQ the Waaagh to affect him. Makari himself could potentially be used without Ghaz since he has a universal FNP aura that applies only to Goffs. Arguably that could open up some niche combos.
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Post by: Vineheart01
Makari has to be near ghaz to get that fnp.
W/o ghaz all makari is is a 6LD for gretchin and a laughably annoying to get rid of model.
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Post by: flandarz
I think you guys might be overreacting a bit because he wasn't "everything we wanted". Like saying "Ghaz will only ever be able to hit chaff" like you're not going to have Lootaz, Boyz, or any number of other choices to clear chaff out of the way for him. We have a habit of dismissing things before they even have a chance to be played. Give New Ghaz a chance before you relegate him to "fluffy games only" status.
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Post by: TedNugent
Vineheart01 wrote:Makari has to be near ghaz to get that fnp.
W/o ghaz all makari is is a 6LD for gretchin and a laughably annoying to get rid of model.
 Damn it all
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Post by: BrianDavion
the can only take 4 damage a turn I suspect is being under estimaterd, that means Ghaz is on the board for 3 turns minimum, no matter HOW many tricks and tactics the enemy uses to remove it
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Post by: flandarz
It's 4 damage a phase, but for most armies that's gonna be the same as 4 damage a turn, yeah. Give or take a damage or two.
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Post by: gungo
flandarz wrote:I doubt there's many, if any, armies that can reliably deal 4+ Wounds to Ghaz a turn, so even if you footslog him and your opponent goes first, you should have a decent chance to get him into combat with something. He's decently quick with a 7" Move (which he should keep on your first go, even if your opponent goes first, since his first Wound Bracket is 7-12), and you can advance him on the first turn to get him close enough to threaten something on Turn 2 (10.5" average+6" on turn 2+charge range). It's certainly not as good as Tellyporting him in, but it can be done. Which is a lot better than most of our heavy hitters can boast.
It’s not a turn it’s phase....losing first turn is already partial death sentence to ghaz.. regardless let’s say irks go first.....
Turn 1 ghaz on front line... he moves 7 in and adv d6... takes 4 wounds shooting which is easy for most armies... psychic phase takes more damage if able...
Turn 2 moves 6-7 in and d6 adv still can’t charge because waaggh doesn’t work. On average he moves 21 in so far that’s with him mov8ng 7m both turns and he still isn’t in your opponents deployment zone... he takes 4 more damage shooting maybe more in psychic phase.. he took at least 8 wounds.. he can’t charge you but you can charge him and give him 4 more since he’s already reduced profile...
It takes him to turn 3 to even get off a charge unless your opponent goes to him. Automatically Appended Next Post: Vineheart01 wrote:admittedly if grotsnik could heal ghaz, ghaz would be nearly unkillable.
Unless you could reliably psyker/shoot/assault him every round, Grotsnik + Medisquig = 2D3 heal a turn. Barring some bad luck, that heals faster than he gets hurt.
Still stupid. I'd rather him be untargetable and not have that rule while still having painboys do work on him.
kill grotsnik then ghaz ,it give ghaz enough time to cross the board
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Post by: Vineheart01
GK or 1K Sons -> Psyker 4 damage -> Shoot 4 damage -> Charge 4 damage = Dead 1 turn.
Anybody else that isnt Tau -> Shoot 4 damage 1 turn -> Shoot 4 damage 2nd turn -> Charge him, do 4 damage, dead.
Its per phase, not turn. Only real saving grace is 4++ can be lucky enough to just plink all damage off.
Im seeing ways to use him but its such a specific setup im wondering what else we have/what are we sacrificing to do it. He pretty much will be the focus of the army no matter what. And the ways im seeing to use him would crumble instantly if a vindicare existed to snipe Makari, and severely be hampered if any sniper got the painboy that keeps Medisquigging him.
Since orks have no reliable way to shut down snipers unless the opponent is an idiot.
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Post by: flandarz
I know. How many armies can you list that can deal 4+ Damage to Ghaz a turn? Most damage dealing Psychic Powers require the user to be within 18", so unlikely on turn 1. So to deal over 4 Damage to Ghaz a turn, the enemy has to expose themselves to either him, or the rest of your army. That's why I said that most armies aren't dealing over 4 Wounds to Ghaz a turn.
What opponents or boards do you play on that requires you to be in your opponent's deployment zone to charge ANYTHING he has? And, I assume the rest of your army is just sitting around, since apparently your opponent was able to bring a strong force to bear on Ghaz for 2 turns.
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Post by: gungo
Ghaz 4 a phase is great it most likely means he lives 2 turns maybe 3 however his issue is slow moving melee unit with poor shooting and 6 in range melee buffs that are mostly Goff only meaning he takes forever to get into range to do what he is good at. By turn 3 he’s on his reduced profile and likely to little to late... fluff only model
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Post by: Vineheart01
doesnt have to be all done in the same turn, just saying it can be done.
Literally any proper anti-tank weapons hitting him can take that 4 damage off turn1 really quick. Unless Medisquig is hot and theres nothing to snipe the painboy (which is the ultimate reason i stopped using a painboy is i got sick of not being able to shut down snipers before they got the free kill on a ~70pt Tshirt model) he's gonna be half dead by the time he's close enough to charge at minimum.
Unless you have 0 psyker or assault damage that works against a T7 reliably, he will die pretty quick once he gets close enough to actually do anything.
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Post by: flandarz
It's important to note that his reduced profile is really not any worse than his best profile. Trading a point of S and 1" for an extra attack ain't bad.
And 7" is pretty quick for an Ork. Even at his lowest bracket, he's still just as fast as a Boy Blob.
Me? I say let him be the focus of your opponent's firepower so your other vehicles have an easier time of things. He's scary enough to not ignore, and durable enough to take a beating from pretty much anything your opponent throws at him. The best of our other units are only the former. He's essentially a distraction Carnifex in an Orky package.
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Post by: gungo
flandarz wrote:I know. How many armies can you list that can deal 4+ Damage to Ghaz a turn? Most damage dealing Psychic Powers require the user to be within 18", so unlikely on turn 1. So to deal over 4 Damage to Ghaz a turn, the enemy has to expose themselves to either him, or the rest of your army. That's why I said that most armies aren't dealing over 4 Wounds to Ghaz a turn.
What opponents or boards do you play on that requires you to be in your opponent's deployment zone to charge ANYTHING he has? And, I assume the rest of your army is just sitting around, since apparently your opponent was able to bring a strong force to bear on Ghaz for 2 turns.
tau or guard strat to kill ghaz...shoot turn 1 ignore after 4 wounds , turn 2 shoot 4 wounds and ignore...or psychic if guard. Turn 3 shoot 4 and ghaz is dead without psychic or overwatch or combat. ghaz can’t even make it into your deployment in 2 turns. He’s slower then a normal boys list...he can’t adv and charge or da jump...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
flandarz wrote:It's important to note that his reduced profile is really not any worse than his best profile. Trading a point of S and 1" for an extra attack ain't bad.
And 7" is pretty quick for an Ork. Even at his lowest bracket, he's still just as fast as a Boy Blob.
Me? I say let him be the focus of your opponent's firepower so your other vehicles have an easier time of things. He's scary enough to not ignore, and durable enough to take a beating from pretty much anything your opponent throws at him. The best of our other units are only the former. He's essentially a distraction Carnifex in an Orky package.
he’s slower then a boy blob he can’t adv and charge or da jump
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Post by: Vineheart01
thats really the only bright side to ghaz's profile. He doesnt degrade, more like shifts stats around.
Weakest profile still wounds everything on 3s at worst with 7(+1 if warlord, +2 if Fist of Gork'd) attacks and exploding 6s. Pretty much at any bracket he will delete a knight if Fist of Gork'd, and reliably do some HEAVY damage w/o it.
Fortunately they didnt pull some bull and make his WS degrade. One of the reasons i prefer the Mork over the Gork is the shooting, once it degrades at all its melee is a lot less potent but its shooting is still rude. Yeah gork has some mean shooting too but totally different reasons/targets.
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Post by: flandarz
He can't advance and charge, but he can advance without charging. He's literally as quick as a Boy Blob that advanced two turns and then charged (8.5+8.5+9 for charge=26 vs 10.5+7+9=26.5). He's definitely not slower on foot than a Boy unit.
You just listed armies that would take 3 turns to take Ghaz down. If you get first go, then you get to throw him into CC (10.5+10.5+6+9=36). If you don't, all you got to hope for is that your opponent wants one of the Objectives in the middle of the board, or has moved close enough to the Deployment line, which should be most of the time.
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Post by: tulun
I think it's early to say if we can dismiss him without seeing new relics and stratagems, which might influence how he can be used.
But it's a bit disappointing overall. It feels kind of hard to use him properly, which is definitely not true of someone like the G man.
You either have to:
1) invest hard in something like a Goff painboy, which is easily counterable, to slog him.
2) Tellyporta him in and hope he can hit something worth smacking. You also probably don't want to send him in alone, so you will probably need to *heavily* lean into this strategy (IE: multiple Deep Striking units, whatever they are).
I also think leaning into Goffs is probably a bad idea. They still suffer the same issue -- damage is not the problem, its getting there. Unless they get something to help them get there, it's a bit moot imo. Ghaz doesn't do this anymore than a normal Warboss + painboy.
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Post by: gungo
flandarz wrote:He can't advance and charge, but he can advance without charging. He's literally as quick as a Boy Blob that advanced two turns and then charged (8.5+8.5+9 for charge=26 vs 10.5+7+9=26.5). He's definitely not slower on foot than a Boy unit.
You just listed armies that would take 3 turns to take Ghaz down. If you get first go, then you get to throw him into CC (10.5+10.5+6+9=36). If you don't, all you got to hope for is that your opponent wants one of the Objectives in the middle of the board, or has moved close enough to the Deployment line, which should be most of the time.
your not getting into assault turn 3 turn 1 is 4 dam min, turn 2 4 dam min, turn 3 he’s dead either by tau overwatch or guard psychic and overwatch . You are correct the only way ghaz gets melee is your opponent goes for a center board objective giving ghaz a target he likely is over killing.
And way to ignoring my point about da jump because it’s not like that is the main psychic power used on boy blobs to allow them to make it into melee.
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Post by: flandarz
Also important to note that a Boy Blob also can't advance and charge without an additional Warboss tax. Not saying Ghaz SHOULDN'T be able to do the same, just that you're unintentionally distorting the facts to make Ghaz out to be worse than he is. And things like: "well, if you fight these specific armies" can be easily enough countered with "when you go up against these armies, put him in a Tellyporta". Same really goes for Snipers too. If you know that deploying Ghaz to the table will result in him getting wiped before he reaches anything, then don't do it. Clear the chaff and drop him in afterwards.
Again, I ain't saying Ghaz on foot is the optimal way to play him. I'm saying it can be done, and far more frequently than our pessimistic attitudes might suggest.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Obviously your opponents always get first turn and always hug the back corner of their deployment zone that's furthest away from you. I'm afraid I can't help you with that and can only hope that they don't have long range weaponry so you can do the same.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I ignored it because your claim was that Boyz were faster than Ghaz. If you want to use Da Jump for Boyz, then you have to account for Tellyporta for Ghaz, and we're right back in the same place as before.
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Post by: gungo
flandarz wrote:Also important to note that a Boy Blob also can't advance and charge without an additional Warboss tax. Not saying Ghaz SHOULDN'T be able to do the same, just that you're unintentionally distorting the facts to make Ghaz out to be worse than he is. And things like: "well, if you fight these specific armies" can be easily enough countered with "when you go up against these armies, put him in a Tellyporta". Same really goes for Snipers too. If you know that deploying Ghaz to the table will result in him getting wiped before he reaches anything, then don't do it. Clear the chaff and drop him in afterwards.
Again, I ain't saying Ghaz on foot is the optimal way to play him. I'm saying it can be done, and far more frequently than our pessimistic attitudes might suggest.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Obviously your opponents always get first turn and always hug the back corner of their deployment zone that's furthest away from you. I'm afraid I can't help you with that and can only hope that they don't have long range weaponry so you can do the same.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I ignored it because your claim was that Boyz were faster than Ghaz. If you want to use Da Jump for Boyz, then you have to account for Tellyporta for Ghaz, and we're right back in the same place as before.
Telly porta is the only way to use ghaz and he still taking at least a round of shooting and any psychic powers to the face before overwatch or being charged himself.
My point was ghaz as shown is fluff only you will never see him near any competitve or decent list. I never said he’s the worst thing in game but he’s completely impractical .
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Post by: flandarz
Ok, how is he taking a full round of stuff when Tellyporting in? I'm assuming you mean "after he wrecked whatever you sent him at and then it's your opponent's turn", in which case he operates exactly the same as every other Ork unit in the game. Except he has a better chance of surviving all of that than they do.
And, no. It's not the only way to play him. Unless you're unimaginative.
People said the same thing about MANz, and they saw play. And Flash Gitz, and they saw play. And any number of other units across multiple Factions. That's why I say "wait and see how people play him before making your judgements".
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Post by: TedNugent
Good news is no reason to play Goffs still
Also, I called that thing being four big shootas strapped together
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Post by: tulun
Can Goffs technically do a Dok's tool roll AND the Makari roll? It looks like RAW they can.
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Post by: flandarz
There's an FAQ that specifically disallows using more than one FNP.
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Post by: gungo
flandarz wrote:Ok, how is he taking a full round of stuff when Tellyporting in? I'm assuming you mean "after he wrecked whatever you sent him at and then it's your opponent's turn", in which case he operates exactly the same as every other Ork unit in the game. Except he has a better chance of surviving all of that than they do.
And, no. It's not the only way to play him. Unless you're unimaginative.
People said the same thing about MANz, and they saw play. And Flash Gitz, and they saw play. And any number of other units across multiple Factions. That's why I say "wait and see how people play him before making your judgements".
he’s about as good at making it into melee as any non evil sun melee unit that teleports in.. less then 50% chance of getting into melee.
You sure have a lot of imagination that’s for sure
Um no one said anything bad about flash gits when our codex came out. If you mean pre-clan buffs they sucked.
Manz also got a massive point reduction why they are decent now.
Not sure what imaginary world your living in now.
Ghaz isn’t Burma boy bad if that makes you feel better
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Post by: flandarz
I just recognize past patterns. Take a look at the OP. See where MANz are rated. Then look at the competitive Ork lists being run and note how many include MANz. Same for Flash Gitz. Now, again, with feeling: how about instead of judging the guy before he even hits a table, you give him a chance?
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Post by: Tiberius501
Would it be worth the 4CP it’s cost to tellyport him with some Dreads or a Bonebreaka full of MANZ?
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Post by: flandarz
Actually, I think I'll just stop asking you to give him a chance now. I'll just screenshot this page and post it when the first competitive Ork list that includes Ghaz makes a top 4 placement.
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Post by: gungo
flandarz wrote:I just recognize past patterns. Take a look at the OP. See where MANz are rated. Then look at the competitive Ork lists being run and note how many include MANz. Same for Flash Gitz. Now, again, with feeling: how about instead of judging the guy before he even hits a table, you give him a chance?
You do realize that those units changed since that list and haven’t been updated? Manz had a big points drop for instance. Which is why they popped up recently
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Post by: TedNugent
flandarz wrote:Actually, I think I'll just stop asking you to give him a chance now. I'll just screenshot this page and post it when the first competitive Ork list that includes Ghaz makes a top 4 placement.
Not holding my breath bro
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Post by: gungo
flandarz wrote:Actually, I think I'll just stop asking you to give him a chance now. I'll just screenshot this page and post it when the first competitive Ork list that includes Ghaz makes a top 4 placement.
you do that..ill see you in 9 th edition or read about your local clubs top 4th place winner
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Post by: tulun
flandarz wrote:There's an FAQ that specifically disallows using more than one FNP.
Gotcha. Sounded like an oversight.
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Post by: Jidmah
I don't really see anything the new Ghaz does, that couldn't be done much better by another unit without being forced into goff.
He is a slow hard-hitter without fly and a bunch of melee buffs. Melee basically doesn't work this edition. It would take some pretty insane stratagems to change that.
Oh, and first post has not been updated in a long time.
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Post by: flandarz
Again, not going to engage because you're so set on "too bad for competitive" that you're being intractable. I never even made a claim that he was definitely going to be competitive, but rather just to wait and see what happens. This is my way of saying "if it happens, I want you to remember that first impressions can often be wrong".
And, if it matters, Flash Fitz were showing up in lists before a point drop. As were MANz. Been a part of this thread since the day it opened, so I remember all that. Automatically Appended Next Post:  Jidmah wrote:I don't really see anything the new Ghaz does, that couldn't be done much better by another unit without being forced into goff.
He is a slow hard-hitter without fly and a bunch of melee buffs. Melee basically doesn't work this edition. It would take some pretty insane stratagems to change that.
Oh, and first post has not been updated in a long time.
There's at least 1 thing he does better than anything else we got: surviving being the focus of your opponent's attacks. Even Makari with a 2++ and Character Protection is unlikely to make it through a turn of dedicated "I want to kill this thing" attacks. Automatically Appended Next Post: In short, Ghaz is a perfect Distraction Carnifex. Dangerous enough not to ignore and durable enough to take a beating.
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Post by: gungo
flandarz wrote:Again, not going to engage because you're so set on "too bad for competitive" that you're being intractable. I never even made a claim that he was definitely going to be competitive, but rather just to wait and see what happens. This is my way of saying "if it happens, I want you to remember that first impressions can often be wrong".
And, if it matters, Flash Fitz were showing up in lists before a point drop. As were MANz. Been a part of this thread since the day it opened, so I remember all that.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jidmah wrote:I don't really see anything the new Ghaz does, that couldn't be done much better by another unit without being forced into goff.
He is a slow hard-hitter without fly and a bunch of melee buffs. Melee basically doesn't work this edition. It would take some pretty insane stratagems to change that.
Oh, and first post has not been updated in a long time.
There's at least 1 thing he does better than anything else we got: surviving being the focus of your opponent's attacks. Even Makari with a 2++ and Character Protection is unlikely to make it through a turn of dedicated "I want to kill this thing" attacks.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
In short, Ghaz is a perfect Distraction Carnifex. Dangerous enough not to ignore and durable enough to take a beating.
I appreciate your optimism. Have a good night man... we all hope your right even if we don’t agree. I’m still buying and playing with him regardless.
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Post by: Vineheart01
Same.
I never play "optimum" anyway so long as it isnt auto-lose territory i generally use it anyway.
And that model is way too sexy to never field. At all.
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Post by: tulun
Jidmah wrote:I don't really see anything the new Ghaz does, that couldn't be done much better by another unit without being forced into goff.
He is a slow hard-hitter without fly and a bunch of melee buffs. Melee basically doesn't work this edition. It would take some pretty insane stratagems to change that.
Oh, and first post has not been updated in a long time.
At his default profile, he's not even much better than a Kitted Warboss in close combat too, which is a kick in the pants.
With Brutal but Kunning, relic klaw is strictly better (re-roll all hits, wounds, and 4 flat damage).
And he can be taken as cheaply as 78 points... is this worth (likely) 200+ points? I dunno.
I think it really hinges if you can somehow maximize the fact he can only take 4 damage a phase. You could leave your opponent in a situation where he CANNOT be killed if charged, so the unit they are sending into him that will get struck back.
But I imagine the typical situation (if slogged) will be:
T1: Do 4 wounds in shooting phase.
T2: Do 4 wounds in shooting phase, charge him and finish him off.
In Tellyporta, it'll come down to how well beta tellyporta strikes actually do competitively. But as you said, can't this already be done by a warboss for cheaper?
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Post by: Sluggaloo
Jidmah wrote:I don't really see anything the new Ghaz does, that couldn't be done much better by another unit without being forced into goff.
There is benefit to having a unit that can't be picked up in 1 shooting phase. Gaz is our IH leviathan. He can move up, guarantee screening for other characters, and is a charge deterrent for enemies. It's annoying that he can't interact as well with ruins as well as not being able to advance and charge (which the latter I imagine will be FAQ'D.
I will try and make him work for ITC.
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Post by: Vineheart01
The ultimate advantage he has over a Brutal Killa Klaw boss is Ghaz is that rude w/o being the warlord.
Which is always a bonus, both for SSAG keeping Big Killa Boss and not immediately handing Slay the Warlord after the warboss kills something (or heavily hurts it)
Our melee focused traits are disgusting, but the warboss.....far from it so they dont get used often.
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Post by: tulun
Vineheart01 wrote:The ultimate advantage he has over a Brutal Killa Klaw boss is Ghaz is that rude w/o being the warlord.
Which is always a bonus, both for SSAG keeping Big Killa Boss and not immediately handing Slay the Warlord after the warboss kills something (or heavily hurts it)
Our melee focused traits are disgusting, but the warboss.....far from it so they dont get used often.
I wager we get a warlord trait stratagem. I agree with you, though, I'd rather keep the SSAG as the warlord.
Just pointing out you can already employ the badass krumpin warboss with a better charge rate for *probably* 200 less points and taking a worthwhile culture for a lot of units.
I like the idea of what they're trying to do, but I'd wager he settles in at best mid tier unless we PA shakes stuff up. He'll find the odd spot in interesting lists but won't be mainstream.
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Post by: gungo
It’s kinda early but how can you make him work
Goff detachment
Ghaz
Weird boy
Makari
2x skar boys blobs
1x Gretchen
Desthskull detwchment
Teleport ghaz in
Da. Jump skar boy unit 1
My issue is how do I get Makari in range for that fnp for the skar boys
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Post by: flandarz
Does the current meta that revolves around killing Primaris make him more attractive? Knights are relatively rare now, and the IH castle has been nerfed, so I imagine there's gonna be more S5 AP-2 D2 weaponry and less anti-armor. Fielded in a vehicle heavy list, Ghaz is either going to draw a lot of that damage to himself and improve their durability or be ignored while your opponent deals with the vehicles in their face. So, my guess, is that Ghaz won't show up much in Infantry lists (despite that being the place his buffs want him to be) and instead may improve the viability of our mech lists.
And no problem, Gungo. We all get fired up about things we're passionate about, myself included. I may want Ghaz to be decent so much that it's clouding my vision, but I DO believe he can find a niche in a competitive list. Likely as a Distraction Carnifex, to be fair.
And it ain't like I don't understand that the game is fairly centered on being cost effective in regards to taking out your opponent rather than being cost efficient in regards to surviving your opponent's attacks.
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Post by: Vineheart01
gungo wrote:It’s kinda early but how can you make him work
Goff detachment
Ghaz
Weird boy
Makari
2x skar boys blobs
1x Gretchen
Desthskull detwchment
Teleport ghaz in
Da. Jump skar boy unit 1
My issue is how do I get Makari in range for that fnp for the skar boys
You can tellyport mulitple units, the 1 stratagem per phase is only in turn-phases, deployment is an exception so you can spam it till you hit the reserves restriction assuming you got enough cp.
Not sure if you wanna dump 2 more cp for makari though but its a thing.
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Post by: TedNugent
Vineheart01 wrote:The ultimate advantage he has over a Brutal Killa Klaw boss is Ghaz is that rude w/o being the warlord.
Which is always a bonus, both for SSAG keeping Big Killa Boss and not immediately handing Slay the Warlord after the warboss kills something (or heavily hurts it)
Our melee focused traits are disgusting, but the warboss.....far from it so they dont get used often.
Big downside is no +1 to charge.
gungo wrote:
My issue is how do I get Makari in range for that fnp for the skar boys
You don't. It's only a 6+ anyway.
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Post by: gungo
Vineheart01 wrote:gungo wrote:It’s kinda early but how can you make him work
Goff detachment
Ghaz
Weird boy
Makari
2x skar boys blobs
1x Gretchen
Desthskull detwchment
Teleport ghaz in
Da. Jump skar boy unit 1
My issue is how do I get Makari in range for that fnp for the skar boys
You can tellyport mulitple units, the 1 stratagem per phase is only in turn-phases, deployment is an exception so you can spam it till you hit the reserves restriction assuming you got enough cp.
Not sure if you wanna dump 2 more cp for makari though but its a thing.
Some units deploy together but are separate units once deployed I had hoped Makari was like this for a single teleport but it’s doubtful. This would have been a useful list.
Allowing your deathskulls to take less focus as ghaz plus skarz would be a nice distraction but those boys don’t survive well enough without fnp/ kff.
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Post by: flandarz
Since you can't Tellyport Ghaz in until T2, you could always run Makari up in a Transport (with some Nobz or Manz as support). Makari should be pretty hard to remove, even if the Transport is destroyed, as long as he has a bodyguard around him.
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Post by: Vineheart01
That sadly no, he's a separate unit so gotta spend 4CP if you wanna do that with him around.
edit; DERP wait actually no you cant. Makari has Gretchin, he cant be tellyported. Frak lol
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Post by: gungo
 TedNugent wrote: Vineheart01 wrote:The ultimate advantage he has over a Brutal Killa Klaw boss is Ghaz is that rude w/o being the warlord.
Which is always a bonus, both for SSAG keeping Big Killa Boss and not immediately handing Slay the Warlord after the warboss kills something (or heavily hurts it)
Our melee focused traits are disgusting, but the warboss.....far from it so they dont get used often.
Big downside is no +1 to charge.
gungo wrote:
My issue is how do I get Makari in range for that fnp for the skar boys
You don't. It's only a 6+ anyway.
The problem is 30 boys die to a stiff breeze now... they need survivability
Makari appears cheaper then a pain boy and more useful if you run goffs. Also only way to give ghaz fnp. However if he can’t port w ghaz he’s useless in that list.
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Post by: flandarz
They'll die to a stiff breeze regardless. Even with a 5++ and a 6+++, you'll lose enough Boyz to either wipe them, or to require you to use the "auto pass morale" Stratagem and EGT them back to full size.
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Post by: tulun
You can Da Jump him and land him with Ghaz if you really need to.
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Post by: Gruxz
Unless Ghaz get some specific strategem that affects his movement, I don't really see him as really competitive.
It would be very fluffy if you can teleport him around during the game, but I don't really see that happening. Maybe we'll get a psychic power for double movement, like thousand sons, that would help, if he can advance and charge.
Well it was cool seeing the rules, now lets wait and see. Previews shouldn't be long now. Automatically Appended Next Post: Vineheart01 wrote:
edit; DERP wait actually no you cant. Makari has Gretchin, he cant be tellyported. Frak lol
Being gretchin doesn't matter for the tellyporta. You can telly kans or mekgunz if you want to. Or a unit of gretchin, but that would be the stupidest thing ever Automatically Appended Next Post: Btw have you guys noticed that ghazzy's datasheet is/looks like a card? That smells like a boxed set...
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Post by: tulun
Gruxz wrote:
Being gretchin doesn't matter for the tellyporta. You can telly kans or mekgunz if you want to. Or a unit of gretchin, but that would be the stupidest thing ever
You're wrong here. Gretchin cannot be affected by Ork stratagems. Why do you think Tellyporta would be allowed?
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Post by: Tiberius501
Here’s my probably terrible idea. Ghaz and a unit of 2 dreads in the Tellyporta. Manz in a Bonebreaka and 2 units of Nobz in Trukks. Blob of 30 Boyz and a Weirdboy with Da Jump. Speed trukks and Bonebreaka up, then tellyport Ghaz and his Dreads, and da jump the boyz in.
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Post by: Billagio
Do we know a points cost?
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Post by: Thayme
Not yet, people are estimating 280ish based on his power level
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Post by: Grimskul
Having mixed feelings overall over the new rules. While I'm glad he has something to mitigate him being targeted, I feel like he's a few tweaks shy of crossing semi-competitive to competitive. I'll try him out first to see if he can work, but I think the real question is how accurate the PL is to some extent. It's too bad that his reroll 1's to hit only applies for Goffs, as that would at least give some more incentive for him to combine with other Klans. Maybe re-roll ones to hit and wound for Goffs, and just reroll ones to hit for other Klans?
On the plus side, there's actual incentive to bring a Goff Painboy, since the Medi-Squig stratagem is the only way to heal him atm.
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Post by: Tomsug
I don' t see Ghazzy' s warlord trait and /or strategem. There is definitely something. And without traits/strategems, there is nothing to judge. Don' t close a bill without the barman.
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Post by: Tyel
Thayme wrote:Not yet, people are estimating 280ish based on his power level
I think this is what will make him not viable. If he was sub 200 points he would probably be meta relevant. At 230+ its getting very expensive. At 280 its becoming a joke.
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Post by: PiñaColada
 Tomsug wrote:I don' t see Ghazzy' s warlord trait and /or strategem. There is definitely something. And without traits/strategems, there is nothing to judge. Don' t close a bill without the barman.
I covered this earlier in the thread, you never see a characters warlord trait on their datasheet. Named characters are forced to take a specific one, but where that's detailed is the same place as the codex describes the actual warlord traits (page 132 in the ork codex for example)
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Post by: An Actual Englishman
I've just read like 3 pages of possible tactica ideas and strategies you guys are cooking up, meanwhile me and PinaColada are sitting here with smiles on our faces because Ghaz can be taken in our Evil Sunz Speed Freeks lists 
Ghaz doesn't look to be super competitive, but I'm not surprised and to be honest I don't care. I've played with sub-optimal units all edition, no point changing that now!
Edit - if you want to footslog him, I'd say a Medi-Squig Goff Painboy is mandatory. Might not be all that bad though, the Painboy should be relatively easy to hide behind Ghazzy's IMMENSE CHONK.
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Post by: PiñaColada
Now, if only they give Killa Kanz something in PA I can surround Ghaz with them and footslog them all up the board. Beccause his reroll 1's should work on them right? They'd be Goff Ork, just wouldn't get the kultur.
Max a unit, warpath it. Pray it does something
Edit: Try that once and then go back to pure ES (excluding Ghaz) because red is the only colour for me
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Post by: r_squared
I Believe that they have written these rules solely with the thought of facing Ragnar in single combat, backed up by a space wolf army. Which makes sense from their perspective.
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Post by: An Actual Englishman
PiñaColada wrote:Edit: Try that once and then go back to pure ES (excluding Ghaz) because red is the only colour for me
A man of kultur!
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Post by: Orkimedez_Atalaya
I join the club of the sceptical. Certainly, the run and charge aura will be FAQed.
Mork's gaze should have been s6. 4 supashootas. That or higher RoF. 16 maybe. Or maybe give +1 to hit at half range.
Klaw is nice and all. He has a respectable number of attacks. 6 base at -5 (yes, I am assuming he will be your warlord).
Biggest issue is the monster key word IMHO. I am not entirely sure GW saw all the limitations they were imposing on him. At least at that speculated point cost.
Goff aura locked also sucks. Ascension should have overrided it. Whatever. A reroll to would would have been more useful.
Also annoyed he didn't get a targeting thingy ala flashgit. He has it modelled in the metallic skull!
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Post by: Emicrania
Calm your titties and wait for the strats. Otherwise you look like the guy hoarding TP at Costco.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
We might get multiple WL. Dedicated spells to jump him or gate him. Better WL specific trait. Better Relics.
Calm
Down.
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Post by: deffrekka
My biggest gripe with him being a Monster is that he looses out on so much stuff, some key stratagems, painboys, his own waaagh, da jump, he cant even move through and up ruins. His combat is about on par if a little better than a boss with da killa klaw and brutal but kunnin. His shootings is... well its Orkz what did we expect. And Makari... I was atleast hoping they would bake in the standard Waaagh banner into his 6+++ FNP ability but I guess not.
I love Ghaz's model but I dont see a way of using him that doesnt involve teleporting him in. And any vehicle that he fails to charge will simply out pace him.
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Post by: acme2468
I want run him in a Goff dread list, sure not super competitive, but just think how awesome it would be to stomp up the field with a gorkanaut and morkanaut alongside him. Chonky boys unite!
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Post by: deffrekka
To be honest though, Ghaz is definitely up there for one of the most premium 1v1 character duellists out there theoretically. A Smash Captain will all his attacks and potential damage will only every do 4 wounds to Ghaz, and there is no point in ever popping fight again when you die against Ghaz as has already taken his 4 wound limit. Unless you are locked in combat with something else along with the big boss. He can go toe to toe with anyone, Guilliman, A knight, Kharn, Draigo, etc and come out of it generally on top. His weakness is getting him there and having those perfect engagements. You might be able to catch a player off guard and krump a character here and there but generally I think people will avoid getting in a duel with Ghaz.
Like Ragnar vs Ghaz isnt even a fair fight now (and it wasnt really fair before). Ragnar has no chance of decapitating Ghaz if he has atleast 5 wounds left, whilst he could still one shot Wolf Boi (even if he pops transhuman).
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Post by: Jidmah
Just be careful with overwatch, that's a different phase from the fight phase.
I'm probably going to chuck him in my buggies list to replace the deep striking deff dreads. Forcing the enemy to divert 4 damage each turn (and losing overkill) is pretty neat for a distraction carnifex. Might even bring back the painboy on bike to medi-squig him every turn, it's not like I have lots of use for my CP in that list anyways.
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Post by: Emicrania
Isn't The Painboy on bike a legend?
Also ATM, without seeing anything else with strats and relics, I can immagine tinkering a chonky united with Morks/gorkanaut + deff dread with a shooting base of mek gunz/FG/Lootas.
Or a 20 Manz list that bullies objectives and midfield.
He doesn't need any KFF so he can simply DS midfield T2 in cover and works as force multiplier. I don't think slingshot him is the right move. Like people using G-man as a killing machine, that is a trap. He's a reactive unit that is there mostly to attract firepower and distract the enemy.
I have some expectations on the stratagems to allow us to enanche our survivability and ofc that they will faq him in order to advance and charge. I don't think he will be able to sit in veichles. Also I hope the new FW codex are gonna be announced in the end of march so we might get something interesting with chinork and/or Meka Dredd
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Post by: Bossdoc
with chinork and/or Meka Dredd
Chinork will unfortunately go to legends, since the model is no longer sold...
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Post by: Jidmah
Yes, but I'm also running Da Red Gobbo every other game. He is an amazing objective camper 
The competitive variant would probably to run grotznik after him, as you'll probably have deff skullz for the SSAG anyways.
Fun fact, since Thrakka is a MONSTER now, he doesn't prevent Grotznik from going on ramage
Also ATM, without seeing anything else with strats and relics, I can immagine tinkering a chonky united with Morks/gorkanaut + deff dread with a shooting base of mek gunz/FG/Lootas.
5++/6+++ on vehicles does sound quite tempting. He can even provide that (and the re-rolls) to a stompa - not that it would help any
Too bad his aura is melee only. I understand why they did it, but having it apply to all attacks could have single-handedly pulled goff back into the competitive choices.
He doesn't need any KFF so he can simply DS midfield T2 in cover and works as force multiplier. I don't think slingshot him is the right move. Like people using G-man as a killing machine, that is a trap. He's a reactive unit that is there mostly to attract firepower and distract the enemy.
Gulliman is untargetable though. He is more like Mortarion, you have to get him to connect, otherwise you lose your investment.
I have some expectations on the stratagems to allow us to enanche our survivability
Doubtful. Redundancy instead of durability is kind of our army theme. I would love to see a charge out of vehicle stratagem though.
and ofc that they will faq him in order to advance and charge. I don't think he will be able to sit in veichles.
Agree.
Also I hope the new FW codex are gonna be announced in the end of march so we might get something interesting with chinork and/or Meka Dredd
Chinork maybe, I wouldn't hold my breath on the meka dread though, outside of massive point drops. Its main weakness right now is that it is limited to the weapons on the model, which were quite awesome when it was released in 5th but nothing to write home about when compared to a buggy or naut.
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Post by: warhead01
I am not expecting GW to faq Ghaz to be able to advance and charge. If it happens I will be very surprised.
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Post by: deffrekka
Jidmah wrote:
Yes, but I'm also running Da Red Gobbo every other game. He is an amazing objective camper
The competitive variant would probably to run grotznik after him, as you'll probably have deff skullz for the SSAG anyways.
Fun fact, since Thrakka is a MONSTER now, he doesn't prevent Grotznik from going on ramage
Also ATM, without seeing anything else with strats and relics, I can immagine tinkering a chonky united with Morks/gorkanaut + deff dread with a shooting base of mek gunz/FG/Lootas.
5++/6+++ on vehicles does sound quite tempting. He can even provide that (and the re-rolls) to a stompa - not that it would help any
Too bad his aura is melee only. I understand why they did it, but having it apply to all attacks could have single-handedly pulled goff back into the competitive choices.
He doesn't need any KFF so he can simply DS midfield T2 in cover and works as force multiplier. I don't think slingshot him is the right move. Like people using G-man as a killing machine, that is a trap. He's a reactive unit that is there mostly to attract firepower and distract the enemy.
Gulliman is untargetable though. He is more like Mortarion, you have to get him to connect, otherwise you lose your investment.
I have some expectations on the stratagems to allow us to enanche our survivability
Doubtful. Redundancy instead of durability is kind of our army theme. I would love to see a charge out of vehicle stratagem though.
and ofc that they will faq him in order to advance and charge. I don't think he will be able to sit in veichles.
Agree.
Also I hope the new FW codex are gonna be announced in the end of march so we might get something interesting with chinork and/or Meka Dredd
Chinork maybe, I wouldn't hold my breath on the meka dread though, outside of massive point drops. Its main weakness right now is that it is limited to the weapons on the model, which were quite awesome when it was released in 5th but nothing to write home about when compared to a buggy or naut.
Tbh I want statagems that affect specific units more, like a Tankbusta barrage (from DoW2) where that unit can shoot rokkits out of line of sight, one that lets kommandos sneak d6 closer when they arrive from deep strike like with GSC. Stuff like that, hell even one for lootas and burnas that let them fire max shots for a shooting phase. There is a lot of stratagems we have that we just pass over for most units, and we dont really have many for our vehicles, 1 is speed freak locked (exhaust clouds, of which why arent our planes speed freaks, they were in the past im sure), 1 is tied to units that fly, then we have ramming speed which is primarily used when you teleport in a Deffdread/Naut/Bonebreaka and you dont use it much past that entry point. We could even get given our own version of Transhuman, imagine that on Meganobs, oooh boi thats hawt. It doesnt have to be game breaking but just gives us extra utility to our existing units. Automatically Appended Next Post: But knowing GW they will do a GSC on us and give us pretty crappy new strats from the PA. Like that poop heavy stubber one, give a unit with big shootas -1 AP, yaaaaaaaay. Guess thats fine on Deffkoptas, but I would prefer something more than that. If we get even the quality of IH or Marine in general strats ill be impressed and thoroughly happy. Thats all I ask for. I dont want broken and I dont want trash. I want useful ones that give utility and options.
Hell give us some strats that affect Grots/Kans/Mek Gunz. Imagine something like an Overload Power strat for Mek Gunz that gives a reroll to wound. Or Kans that want to show they are big and stompy and get +1 to hit in combat. Those arent game destroying. Automatically Appended Next Post: Or imagine a Runtherd one that bullies the lil Grots that gives the Klan rules to Grots keyword units within 6". Park him behind some Mek Gunz or Kans and all of sudden you get a boost to those units.
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Post by: PiñaColada
If there's a strat to give big shootas AP-1 then watch it only affect a model and not a unit. Hey you can basically upgrade a battlewagon to get Morks roar, that's an extra relic for 1CP!
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Post by: deffrekka
PiñaColada wrote:If there's a strat to give big shootas AP-1 then watch it only affect a model and not a unit. Hey you can basically upgrade a battlewagon to get Morks roar, that's an extra relic for 1CP!
*starts rocking in the corner of the room crying* please no... please... 
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Post by: PiñaColada
Dread it. Run from it. Mediocrity still arrives
(In all seriousness though, I'm actually really hyped and quite hopeful we'll get some good stuff here)
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Post by: deffrekka
PiñaColada wrote:Dread it. Run from it. Mediocrity still arrives
(In all seriousness though, I'm actually really hyped and quite hopeful we'll get some good stuff here)
me too! looking at the Guard/Scion/Tau strats they got in PA, ill be happy if we got stuff like that, if its more the GSC ones... well youll see a grown man cry
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Post by: tulun
 An Actual Englishman wrote:I've just read like 3 pages of possible tactica ideas and strategies you guys are cooking up, meanwhile me and PinaColada are sitting here with smiles on our faces because Ghaz can be taken in our Evil Sunz Speed Freeks lists
Ghaz doesn't look to be super competitive, but I'm not surprised and to be honest I don't care. I've played with sub-optimal units all edition, no point changing that now!
Edit - if you want to footslog him, I'd say a Medi-Squig Goff Painboy is mandatory. Might not be all that bad though, the Painboy should be relatively easy to hide behind Ghazzy's IMMENSE CHONK.
Im not sure he’ll be hideable. Painboy has too many spindly bits.
If people really wanna keep it alive, I think it’s grot shields.
It won’t be worth it though. Massive investment and then people will realize you can hurt ghaz in more than shooting and start to overwhelm the healing anyway.
People have a hard on on reddit for this strategy. I don’t think it’ll be good.
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Post by: TedNugent
So can I just ignore this release and play the old Ghazghkull Thraka
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Post by: flandarz
Were you playing him before? I can't think of many folks who were running Goff detachments, but if I were your opponent I'd be fine with you running Old Ghaz. Not like he's even marginally competitive, and being forced to field a Goff detachment to even play him will weaken your overall list.
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Post by: tulun
PiñaColada wrote:Dread it. Run from it. Mediocrity still arrives
(In all seriousness though, I'm actually really hyped and quite hopeful we'll get some good stuff here)
100% will. I think the custom clan stuff that's expected will shake up lists, especially if *any* include +1 charge out of deep strike, because then you could pair the ES bonus people actually care about with something else. ES might die from the competitive meta.
I'm confident too we are going to get a few good new stratagems, even if it's basic gak like "Here, have a warlord trait".
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Post by: An Actual Englishman
Jidmah wrote:
and ofc that they will faq him in order to advance and charge. I don't think he will be able to sit in veichles.
Agree.
Unfortunately, comments on Facebook suggest otherwise....
Facebook dude wrote: Is the fact he can't be affected by his run and charge aura intentional?
14
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GW wrote:Author
Warhammer 40,000 We'd imagine so. He's starting of at a hefty move 7, so he's keeping. up with the boyz.
Bad times.
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Post by: TedNugent
I really just hope they put up a kustom clan preview soon so I have something to look forward to.
For sure the real meat and potatoes of the book is going to be kustom clans and/or strats.
It would actually be kind of ironic if their first preview next weekend ends up being Ghaz and Yiffboi, which everyone has already seen.
An Actual Englishman wrote:
GW wrote:Author
Warhammer 40,000 We'd imagine so. He's starting of at a hefty move 7, so he's keeping. up with the boyz.
Bad times.
*sigh* stick a fork in him.
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Post by: yukishiro1
He's schizophrenic junk without something more. A unit that is horribly overcosted and underpowered except when ran in a deeply sup-optimal culture...that is supposed to have Makari with him at all times, but the only real way to run him is in the tellyporta, which Makari can't use due to keywords (and would be horribly expensive to use anyway). Even in the tellyporta, his chance of making a charge is only about 55%. And he has no way at all to get around chaff - made much worse by his terrible mobility and his base size, a toxic combination. I mean you can just literally block this guy from being able to do anything at all by feeding a few cultists/grots/guardsmen/anything into him.
Yeah, he turns goff skarboyz into khrone berserker level combat monsters...but zerkers are junk in 8th, because the issue with combat is getting there. Orks becoming World Eaters is not going to make them better. World Eaters are an example of everything that is /fail about 8th edition combat.
There is some merit in the point that we don't have the rest of the book so we don't know if there is more. But from what we know...it's very hard to see how you do anything useful with this guy.
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Post by: Vineheart01
Do custom forces allow locked characters if theyre successors to that force?
i.e. can an ultrasmurf wannabe still bring Gman?
If so, possible "Goff" can still be made pretty good.
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Post by: tulun
Vineheart01 wrote:Do custom forces allow locked characters if theyre successors to that force?
i.e. can an ultrasmurf wannabe still bring Gman?
If so, possible "Goff" can still be made pretty good.
Successors won't be a thing here I think. Like, Eldar don't have "Biel Tan" or "Saim Haim" successors. You can build "Biel-tan" like CW, but they don't get their specific strats or keywords.
And afaik, Shrike and his ilk have to be taken by Ravenguard, not a successor.
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Post by: yukishiro1
Nope. But even if they did...nobody but marines have successor mechanics, and that specifically ties in with their fluff. I see little reason that Orks are going to get successor kultures instead of just custom ones like all the other PA books have provided.
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Post by: TedNugent
An Actual Englishman wrote:
GW wrote:Author
Warhammer 40,000 We'd imagine so. He's starting of at a hefty move 7, so he's keeping. up with the boyz.
Bad times.
Yeah, I screenshotted their commentary.
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Post by: PiñaColada
Well hopefully GW realises that Ghaz not being affected by his own aura relegates him to one style of play (which incidentally keeps him off the board for most of the game) and is thoroughly unfun by the time the PA6 errata comes around
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Post by: TedNugent
PiñaColada wrote:Well hopefully GW realises that Ghaz not being affected by his own aura relegates him to one style of play (which incidentally keeps him off the board for most of the game) and is thoroughly unfun by the time the PA6 errata comes around
They'll probably realize that as soon as they realize that Stompas are overcosted
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Post by: flandarz
To be fair, the 40k FB states that it isn't part of the rules team, so take their "I believe so" with a grain of salt.
I doubt I'd ever run Ghaz in a Goff detachment. You're losing out on very little to just slap him into another detachment (exploding 6s in CC), because all his Buffs still apply to him (except Advance/Charge, which is multi-Kultur anyway).
As for how I'd run him? I'd play him alongside a Gork, Mork, some Dreadz, a Bonebreaker, etc. Just a bunch of stuff that is weak to the same stuff he is. Also include some Buggies to get into the opponent's face. His role would be to act as a damage sponge for my other stuff, being incredibly durable but also too dangerous to ignore. M
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Post by: PiñaColada
I mean, assuming you have enough detachments the putting him with 3 mek guns in a spearhead seems like a no-brainer to me.. Not like you have to worry about the grots getting a non-optimised kultur
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Post by: flandarz
That's fair and certainly viable if you absolutely, positively MUST have those exploding 6s and/or Makari.
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Post by: Billagio
The facebook comment isnt encouraging, but its also them interpreting the rules as they are currently written, not that it wont change with the FAQ. And as mentioned they are not a part of the rules team so they wont be making rulings about if a rule will change in the FAQ when the model hasnt even been released yet
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Post by: warhead01
As expected GW doesn't seem to want Ghaz to go fasta.
If he did he'd be in close combat on turn 1 with a potential 25" move right into close combat on the first turn.
I haven't kept up with the power creep for the last 6 or 7 months so who knows.
I'm more disappointed in the model than the rules. Far too round not Orky enough way too AoS and that Klaw really sucks.
I may set my War Boss aside for Ghaz as I basically play Goffs anyway, won't have to change my play-style much. Goff grots used to screen Goff Stormboys, seems like a plan. I just have to figure out how to put those grots up front.
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Post by: PiñaColada
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Post by: deffrekka
So it looks like we arent getting build your own Klans, but new ones entirely including a Grot Klan. Along that we are getting rules to kustomize vehicles and then new stratagems.
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Post by: tulun
PiñaColada wrote:I mean, assuming you have enough detachments the putting him with 3 mek guns in a spearhead seems like a no-brainer to me.. Not like you have to worry about the grots getting a non-optimised kultur
I agree with this style.
Ghaz
Painboy
3x of something useful (Mek Guns, if you can justify 2 other elites in your list that are goffs...)
But the thing that I'm wracking my brain around is the fact the painboy moves 2" SLOWER than Ghaz. and it needs to basically be in base to base contact to try to hide from sniper fire, and 3" if you wanna heal. I could easily see a situation where the painboy rolls a 1 to advance and Ghaz rolls a 6, and we need that CP reroll to boost up the Medisquig roll.
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Post by: PiñaColada
 deffrekka wrote:So it looks like we arent getting build your own Klans, but new ones entirely including a Grot Klan. Along that we are getting rules to kustomize vehicles and then new stratagems.
Wait, where are you reading grot clan? Also the kustom jobs on vehicles link to that darn mekshop so I'm real skeptical about that
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Post by: deffrekka
A few minor klans I can think off from the top of my head is the White Spiders, Top Knots, Gold Toofs and the Big Choppaz
Of course they can make entirely new ones but these are the old ones some from RT like the White Spiders Automatically Appended Next Post: PiñaColada wrote: deffrekka wrote:So it looks like we arent getting build your own Klans, but new ones entirely including a Grot Klan. Along that we are getting rules to kustomize vehicles and then new stratagems.
Wait, where are you reading grot clan? Also the kustom jobs on vehicles link to that darn mekshop so I'm real skeptical about that
Watch the Video in the link from WHC, they give a quick run down as to whats in the book Automatically Appended Next Post: And yeah me too, they even have a picture of the Mek Shop... when they discuss it
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Post by: tulun
Grot klan?
Good god, can you imagine if we could make a bunch of our units bs4+?
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Post by: TedNugent
PiñaColada wrote:https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/03/15/sunday-preview-beasts-vs-other-beasts/
Previews is up both PA6 and the boxset
Thanks for posting.
Custom "mobs" confirmed (presumably custom clans)
GW wrote:This book is essential for collectors of both Space Wolves and Orks – you’ll find new Stratagems, updated and expanded datasheets, Relics, psychic powers and even rules for giving your Ork vehicles Kustom Jobs and creating Specialist Mobs.
PA6 book has a Wulfboi on the cover holding an ork head  I would be kind of ashamed to have that thing in my box. This will probably be my first digital book purchase.
I fixed the cover though  The Yiff Times are upon us, boyz, getcha choppas! 
Boxset has, as predicted, the exact same models as in the Ghaz reveal shot.
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Post by: PiñaColada
Oh okay, didn't realise there'd be info in the video that isn't in the article. That seems strange to me, but grot klans is my dream! Please be at least semi-decent!
Edit: Yeah, I'm not buying a book that has a space wolf holding the decapitated head of an ork. Seems petty but I'll get it digitally (assuming we don't get royally, GSC-level screwed)
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Post by: flandarz
I imagine the Grot Kultur would have the opposite restrictions as an Ork Kultur (right now, Gretchin don't benefit from Kultur, so the reverse would be that Orkz don't benefit from the Gretchin Kultur). Based on my knowledge of Gretchin, I imagine they'll get a "count as in cover when outside a certain distance" rule, and a "if your unit outnumber the opposing unit add +1 to Wound and +2 to Ld".
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Post by: deffrekka
PiñaColada wrote:Oh okay, didn't realise there'd be info in the video that isn't in the article. That seems strange to me, but grot klans is my dream! Please be at least semi-decent!
Yeah its a new thing they are doing, I think its called warhammer weekly. This is the 3rd one? They do a quick summary of each weeks preorders. Grot Klan could be interesting if it isnt just melee focused. If it makes Mek Gunz even stronger im all for that as lets all be honest..... we all run like atleast 30 Grots and 10+ Mek Gunz that also makes me think we will get Grot strats too Automatically Appended Next Post: TedNugent wrote:PiñaColada wrote:https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/03/15/sunday-preview-beasts-vs-other-beasts/
Previews is up both PA6 and the boxset
Thanks for posting.
Custom "mobs" confirmed (presumably custom clans)
GW wrote:This book is essential for collectors of both Space Wolves and Orks – you’ll find new Stratagems, updated and expanded datasheets, Relics, psychic powers and even rules for giving your Ork vehicles Kustom Jobs and creating Specialist Mobs.
PA6 book has a Wulfboi on the cover holding an ork head I would be kind of ashamed to have that thing in my box. This will probably be my first digital book purchase.
Boxset has, as predicted, the exact same models as in the Ghaz reveal shot.
Every PA so far ive purchased as an eBook. If i could I would put the old limited edition Ghaz supplement cover on this PA instead, which I might have to look into doing.
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Post by: TedNugent
They could at least make two editions, one with Ghaz on the cover for Mork's sake.
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Post by: deffrekka
On the Community site it also says about creating specialist mobs which is interesting?! The video just says kustom jobs (which I guess will be like Guard Tank aces and Nids with their Monster Adaptation) so this is pretty cool. Automatically Appended Next Post: TedNugent wrote:They could at least make two editions, one with Ghaz on the cover for Mork's sake.
Its a Space Marines game lil timmy would rather see a heroic speesh wulf than a hulking brutal Ork.....
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Post by: PiñaColada
Yeah, but the text for kustom jobs is hyperlinked to the mekboy workshop and I ain't buying that thing. Not for money nor points, unless it's a complete overhaul of rules
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Post by: deffrekka
PiñaColada wrote:Yeah, but the text for kustom jobs is hyperlinked to the mekboy workshop and I ain't buying that thing. Not for money nor points, unless it's a complete overhaul of rules
I actually bought it, its got some nice bits to it for kustomizing you existing vehicles and Big Meks. Its just used as standard terrain. Not once used it in game as what it is, I wouldnt even use it if it were free to us. ITS PURE HOT GARBAGE. I would never waste a turn of getting a kustom job when I could spend 2 turns acting normal. Automatically Appended Next Post: Maybe we are getting new psychic powers too as it states that in the article but it doesnt say if its for Orkz, Wolves or both. Automatically Appended Next Post: I imagine its Space Wolves getting the new Vanguard Librarian discipline
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Post by: Pickled_egg
Random thoughts on Ghaz in no particular order
* Being a Monster he now can't charge or move through ruins which pretty much invalidates him in ITC play on its own
* The Advance + Charge buff will be FAQ'd, this feels like a massive oversight to me, why increase his move by 2" randomly, add 2" to Makari's move only to then stop him advancing and charging? Makes zero sense and is clearly a GW oversight
* The only way he seems playable (without knowing the stratagems in PA) seems to be to Tellyport him. But this means he leaves Makari and the boyz behind which again feels counter intuitive. You can mitigate this slightly with Da Jump
* I feel he was made a monster because of his size and because they were aware that Painboy healing would be too much, but as a result he has been nerfed in other areas such as not being able to attack twice
The most hilarious thing about this is if you want to keep your character safe from Ghaz you literally just need to climb up to the 2nd floor of a ruin and laugh as he waves impotently from below.
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Post by: Vineheart01
if for some reason theyre adding stuff to the Mekshop that would be nice if they DO IT RIGHT
It needs to NOT shut the vehicle down a turn, or if it does give it one hell of a kick. Not a single buff it grants justifies losing it a turn, agree with Deffrekka i wouldnt even use it if it was free (though im tempted to buy it for terrain's sake)
also...random....why is there a Grot Oiler in the box? thats...so random lol....
I mean i highly doubt the MANz sprues lack the BigMek variant bits but the oiler isnt in that kit normally (right? least i dont remember one in there)
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Post by: tulun
Vineheart01 wrote:if for some reason theyre adding stuff to the Mekshop that would be nice if they DO IT RIGHT
It needs to NOT shut the vehicle down a turn, or if it does give it one hell of a kick. Not a single buff it grants justifies losing it a turn, agree with Deffrekka i wouldnt even use it if it was free (though im tempted to buy it for terrain's sake)
also...random....why is there a Grot Oiler in the box? thats...so random lol....
I mean i highly doubt the MANz sprues lack the BigMek variant bits but the oiler isnt in that kit normally (right? least i dont remember one in there)
MANz box comes with an oiler I think for the MA Big Mek.
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Post by: TedNugent
tulun wrote: Vineheart01 wrote:if for some reason theyre adding stuff to the Mekshop that would be nice if they DO IT RIGHT
It needs to NOT shut the vehicle down a turn, or if it does give it one hell of a kick. Not a single buff it grants justifies losing it a turn, agree with Deffrekka i wouldnt even use it if it was free (though im tempted to buy it for terrain's sake)
also...random....why is there a Grot Oiler in the box? thats...so random lol....
I mean i highly doubt the MANz sprues lack the BigMek variant bits but the oiler isnt in that kit normally (right? least i dont remember one in there)
MANz box comes with an oiler I think for the MA Big Mek.
Yup.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bqf8bGWm1uU&feature=youtu.be&t=142
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Post by: yukishiro1
The Grot klan better be the GRC, with Da Red Gobbo getting moved out of Legends. If that happens I will tip my hat to GW, I don't care that Ghaz is a useless hunk of junk if I can play my beloved commie Grots again.
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Post by: Vineheart01
Huh, so there is.
Course i bought that sprue eons ago so my memory sucks lol
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Post by: gungo
Ghaz will be usable if he gets his Waagh fixed...
Move adv and charge with a medi squig and makari... means he’s durable enough for a turn 2 charge however without that Waagh adv and charge it’s a turn 3 assault
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Post by: KurtAngle2
I think they explained on the Community Page that it was intentional. Doesn't really matter much because he's gak nonetheless at his new price tag and with the removal of the Infantry keyword (which has more negative implications than stratagems and other codex rules suggest).
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Post by: flandarz
They said they *think* it's intentional on the 40k Facebook. Which is exactly as reliable as me saying I *think* GW forgot to give Ghaz a 70" movement speed.
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Post by: deffrekka
Vineheart01 wrote:if for some reason theyre adding stuff to the Mekshop that would be nice if they DO IT RIGHT
It needs to NOT shut the vehicle down a turn, or if it does give it one hell of a kick. Not a single buff it grants justifies losing it a turn, agree with Deffrekka i wouldnt even use it if it was free (though im tempted to buy it for terrain's sake)
also...random....why is there a Grot Oiler in the box? thats...so random lol....
I mean i highly doubt the MANz sprues lack the BigMek variant bits but the oiler isnt in that kit normally (right? least i dont remember one in there)
Its is haha! I have so many copies of that 1 Oiler as I bought 6 boxes of Meganobs when they were first redone to make the bullyboyz formation. Automatically Appended Next Post: flandarz wrote:They said they *think* it's intentional on the 40k Facebook. Which is exactly as reliable as me saying I *think* GW forgot to give Ghaz a 70" movement speed.
You never know
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Post by: Emicrania
So help me out here. Monster means the he cannot:
- walk thru ruins
- fight 2nd floor
- be jumped
- be healed by painboy
- fight twice
- be embarked on a veichle
- use Waaagh
Am I missing something?
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Post by: TedNugent
gungo wrote:Ghaz will be usable if he gets his Waagh fixed...
Move adv and charge with a medi squig and makari... means he’s durable enough for a turn 2 charge however without that Waagh adv and charge it’s a turn 3 assault
Three turns, huh? Just enough to get 12 wounds off 
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Post by: An Actual Englishman
 Emicrania wrote:So help me out here. Monster means the he cannot:
- walk thru ruins
- fight 2nd floor
- be jumped
- be healed by painboy
- fight twice
- be embarked on a veichle
- use Waaagh
Am I missing something?
Only one thing I can think of;
-win the game
The more I think about him the less competitive I think Ghaz' is. His damage output is just too low. With no way to clear screens and his massive chonky butt he's just going to get tied up fighting chaff.
Investing the 60odd points and 2-3 CP in the Medisquig makes Ghaz' more durable but seems like a trap to me.
Red herring I reckon. A smart player will tie Ghaz' up and ignore him all game.
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Post by: TedNugent
Tellyport Ghaz turn 2 + Evil Sunz Kommandos, Stormboyz for chaff clearing and +1 attack?
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Post by: Vineheart01
when you guys refer to "walk through ruins" are you meaning going through doors n whatnot or the area terrain known as "ruins"?
Pretty sure he's only denied going to upper levels, not through ruins in general. And a base that big he's not going to upper levels in any of the GW terrain thats for sure lol (way too thin)
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Post by: KurtAngle2
Vineheart01 wrote:when you guys refer to "walk through ruins" are you meaning going through doors n whatnot or the area terrain known as "ruins"?
Pretty sure he's only denied going to upper levels, not through ruins in general. And a base that big he's not going to upper levels in any of the GW terrain thats for sure lol (way too thin)
No, infantry can physically surpass ruins sceneries as if they were not there
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Post by: deffrekka
Vineheart01 wrote:when you guys refer to "walk through ruins" are you meaning going through doors n whatnot or the area terrain known as "ruins"?
Pretty sure he's only denied going to upper levels, not through ruins in general. And a base that big he's not going to upper levels in any of the GW terrain thats for sure lol (way too thin)
Ghaz wont be able to fit through any door, I doubt he can even fit through the arch way on the Sector Imperialis set. So ruins is it as a singular piece. He wont be able to go through it or up levels. Maybe in 8.5/9th ed they will allow vehicles and monsters to move through but not up ruins as it makes literally no sense, but your infantry can regardless if there are any windows or doors. That is 1 of the many rules I hate about 8th.
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Post by: Vineheart01
considering ive always played there has to be a door or bigger than a slit window to move through a ruin anyway that doesnt really bug me.
What makes no sense is going through a solid wall w/o fly. If anything a monster should be the one able to do that, not infantry lol (bulldoze right through it)
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Post by: yukishiro1
Vineheart01 wrote:when you guys refer to "walk through ruins" are you meaning going through doors n whatnot or the area terrain known as "ruins"?
Pretty sure he's only denied going to upper levels, not through ruins in general. And a base that big he's not going to upper levels in any of the GW terrain thats for sure lol (way too thin)
Infantry have different rules for moving through ruins than other units; they can just ignore the ruin walls/barriers for purposes of movement, charging, etc. Anything else has to go around and find an opening that will let their model through.
In other words:
Sneaky Eldar Git <GOTHIC CATHEDRAL RUIN> Big Ugly Bulky Trash Ghaz
Sneaky Eldar Git can charge right though to Ghaz if he wants to, Big Ugly Bulky Trash Ghaz has to footslog around, delaying his charge by several turns, at which point the game is already probably over.
Sneaky Eldar Git could also start on one side of the walls, bait Big Ugly Bulky Trash Ghaz, then on the turn before Ghaz can charge, hop through a window and Ghaz has to go around the long way....at which point Sneaky Eldar Git just pops through the window the other way!
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Post by: deffrekka
An Actual Englishman wrote: Emicrania wrote:So help me out here. Monster means the he cannot:
- walk thru ruins
- fight 2nd floor
- be jumped
- be healed by painboy
- fight twice
- be embarked on a veichle
- use Waaagh
Am I missing something?
Only one thing I can think of;
-win the game
The more I think about him the less competitive I think Ghaz' is. His damage output is just too low. With no way to clear screens and his massive chonky butt he's just going to get tied up fighting chaff.
Investing the 60odd points and 2-3 CP in the Medisquig makes Ghaz' more durable but seems like a trap to me.
Red herring I reckon. A smart player will tie Ghaz' up and ignore him all game.
Thats what Morks Roar is for! Oh wait hes got an Orky Bs... honestly I bet some guy doing his rules was like "yes! such Dakka!!! he we be mowing down hordes of GEQ with this! Lets up his price too, hes way too god for 230pts! And people say Orkz cant shoot, pffft"
Even from the general replies GW have been doing on FB about Ghaz it seems they have no idea what is an actual good unit. No yes they are just the community team not the rules or playtesters (I dont think they even exist at the point) but a "heft" movement of 7" isnt fast, and him being a "monster" in melee isnt exactly true. He will obliterate any other single entity big bad guy, but he will never get there unless by some crazy fluke or insane luck with charge rolls. He cant even kill his way through being locked in combat by some chaff. And god forbid anyone hide on the 2nd level of a ruin!!! His gun needed either an extra str to really get a better chance to cut through the chaff, or damage 2 to threaten Primaris. His klaw needed a sweep attack just so he can clear his way through unwanted combats, he should have a stiikkbomb chukka (same with Meganobs) as why even give him grenades he will never, ever, in all his tabletop life us over his gun and he needed his own Waaagh! to effect him. But I bet why they did it was they though Ghaz having 6/7/8 attacks on the charge was too much even though they let Blood Angel Smash Captains have 7 on the charge, then fighting again and then fighting when they die. Hell, Ragnar has 10 and thats just obnoxious!
Im sure the book will unluck some funky stuff for Ghaz (hopefully) but what we know now... id rather take 2 or 3 Evil Sunz Deffdreads or a Gorkanaut and teleport them in. Thats the real sad part.
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Post by: cody.d.
Though if your opponant is silly enough to put his models near said wall you can simply charge them and attack through ala MR X in Resident evil 2. Just gotta be within that melee range.
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Post by: deffrekka
Vineheart01 wrote:considering ive always played there has to be a door or bigger than a slit window to move through a ruin anyway that doesnt really bug me.
What makes no sense is going through a solid wall w/o fly. If anything a monster should be the one able to do that, not infantry lol (bulldoze right through it)
As infantry are assumed to be armed with breaching gear to get through walls and locked bulkheads. This dates all the way back to like 5th edition, but without assault grenades they would fight last when charging through terrain. Vehicles and Monsters could move through ruins with Vehicles risking being immobilised and Monsters having Move Through Cover so they ignored it and rolled 3d6 pick the two highest for the distance theyd go.
Oddly GW went the opposite direction this edition and now these big stompy destructive war beasts cant smash through a wall, they have to go round. Even if it were like a general strat for 1CP to move through ruins it would change the play style of certain Vehicles and Monsters. 8th is very dumbed down and backwards in many regards. Automatically Appended Next Post: Like Harlequins with their flip belts, they could be in a fully enclosed ruin, with a roof, no windows or doors, no battle damage anyway. Its existentially a box. Say it has 2 more levels identical to it, no hatches to get up there. They can back flip their way to the very top because thats what the rules are, when in past editions it would of been impassable.
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Post by: yukishiro1
The more I think about this, the more I can't wait for the lols the first time I play someone with Ghaz and just camp a ruin so he can't do a thing other than maybe fire his failcannon at few times.
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Post by: addnid
9th edition will be postponed (insider news apparently) so having Ghaz and other MCs go through ruins will not be an option until... whenever 9th edition comes out. And perhaps 9th won’t even change that because GW maybe thinks it’s fine for MCs to be blocked this way by ruins and other scenery.
Anyway I am sure we will get GSC treatment with the exception that some options will rise atop the heap of rubbish options to help us play Ghaz and some buggies. Something for the « new » models, and garbage options for the rest of the ork model range to shift some kits around, coherently with chapter approved point drops.
We will make something ok out of it all, don’t worry too much
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Post by: flandarz
Are you talking about using the magic box strat everyone is already doing? Or just normal ruins? With actual gaps? Cuz, if the latter, you know your opponent has another 1700ish pts of army to shoot you with, right? If the former, you stopped him in exactly the same way that you'd stop literally anything else.
Half of our Codex can't enter ruins (or doesn't want to), so Ghaz not being able to isn't a huge deal.
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Post by: yukishiro1
Just normal ruins. In ITC, the bottom floor blocks LOS, so you can hide from guns, but that's not really the point. Of course there's the rest of their army. But the point was all you gotta do to make Ghaz even bigger junk than he already is is be anywhere near a ruin...which are everywhere.
A combat-focused model with a 7 inch movement even at the top bracket, no fly, that isn't infantry just isn't really usable in competitive play. The fact that he also has a massive base and no horde-clearing option for close combat is just the nail in the coffin.
I mean this is how bad it is: against chaff, if you've got a big unit of boyz and him, you're usually better off *not* charging with Ghaz if you're trying to wipe the unit, because you lose more damage from the boyz his base blocks from getting within 1 inch than Ghaz actually puts out himself!
This is a model whose only use is to kill other tough units in close combat...with a 7 inch movement and no advance and charge, that doesn't have fly *or* infantry. Total /fail in 8th edition.
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Post by: flandarz
Or, since Ghaz doesn't want to fight Infantry anyway (his Klaw is statted for Monsters and Vehicles), you just ignore the Infantry and go after things that can't hide from you? Like Leviathans, for example. Like, seriously... why would I send Ghaz after an Infantry unit? I got better options for them.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
It'd be like saying "look at how awful these Tankbusters are against Infantry! Garbage unit!"
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Post by: yukishiro1
Show me a player who lets you charge their prized vehicle or monster with a model with 7 inch movement, no advance and charge, and no fly or infantry keyword...and I'll show you a non-competitive player.
I get that you want him to be competitive, but if he is, it'll only be through sheer cheapness because he is literally set up to fail in 8th edition in almost every way. It's hard to think of a less promising combination of stats and keywords in the 8th edition rules. He's got *nothing* going for him except the "4 wounds per phase" thing.
Unless of course there's some stratagem in the book that mitigates the huge /fail that is his basic statline and keywords. But we're all going on what we know now. And what we know is...not pretty.
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Post by: flandarz
Well, considering you got a 48% chance to make a Charge out of Tellyporta with him, I imagine that using Lootaz, Gitz, Boyz, or something else to clear the chaff first, then throwing him at what they were screening should work fairly often. We already do this with Dreadz and Warbosses (which have worse versions of Ghaz's stats and keywords), so I doubt it would take a non-competitive player to allow this to happen.
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Post by: deffrekka
flandarz wrote:Or, since Ghaz doesn't want to fight Infantry anyway (his Klaw is statted for Monsters and Vehicles), you just ignore the Infantry and go after things that can't hide from you? Like Leviathans, for example. Like, seriously... why would I send Ghaz after an Infantry unit? I got better options for them.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
It'd be like saying "look at how awful these Tankbusters are against Infantry! Garbage unit!"
Sometimes you cant dictate what your unit fights, and if people wanna lock Ghaz up with a horde of cheap bodies they will and he has no way out except to punch his way out all game.
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Post by: yukishiro1
I agree that DS is the only realistic way to use him, but...a sub-50% chance to charge with a unit that's useless if it doesn't make the charge is not competitive unless we're working under very different definitions of what competitive means. That means literally half your games, even if you do manage to clear the screen and they aren't wising up and using terrain to deny you a 9 inch charge option, your strategy fails. That's not competitive.
Compared to almost any of your other deep-strike options Ghaz just doesn't get there. Anything else you'd DS bomb with has a 70% or better chance to hit that charge.
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Post by: flandarz
That's fair, though I imagine you'll have a group of Boyz close enough to Ghaz to charge into that unit and free him up. Or do like you would with anything you don't want tied into cheap chaff combat and either screen, or position them so they can't get surrounded.
Like, I feel a lot of this "Ghaz sucks" attitude rides on the opponent making perfect choices and the player makes all the worst choices.
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Post by: yukishiro1
That's what competitive play is all about. If your opponent isn't playing competently, you're not playing competitively. That doesn't mean people never make mistakes, but it does mean you have to assume they won't make obvious mistakes.
A 7 inch movement model with a close combat focus, a huge base, no fly, no anti-horde (the gun really doesn't get there) and no infantry keyword is just not set up to succeed competitively. I will reserve complete judgment until we have the whole book... but it's difficult to see how the basic setup of the new Ghaz could be any *less* amenable to competitive play.
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Post by: flandarz
My opinion on Ghaz is thus: I'll place him during Deployment in my mechanized list. His presence should be enough to draw fire from my Buggies, Dreadz, or anything else I want to field. If it isn't, I should be able to get him to charge into something he wants to kill. If it does, I've saved these other units from a minimum of 4 damage per shooting phase, which is also fine.
You missed the second part where I said "and you make all the worst decisions".
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Post by: deffrekka
flandarz wrote:That's fair, though I imagine you'll have a group of Boyz close enough to Ghaz to charge into that unit and free him up. Or do like you would with anything you don't want tied into cheap chaff combat and either screen, or position them so they can't get surrounded.
Like, I feel a lot of this "Ghaz sucks" attitude rides on the opponent making perfect choices and the player makes all the worst choices.
Yeah screening is fine, but at the cost that Ghaz will probably be in addition to all the other necessary units that are in the army, there wont be much pts in the way of getting a good screening presence that will still be easily blown away in this day and age of 40k. Footslogging Ghaz is pretty much a no go unless by some miracle GW actually gives us back Bullyboys to take wounds off Ghaz like drones. I suspect GW thinks Ghaz is crazy strong and thus not done that or anything else to help him get across the board, charge better or be even more survivable.
If you are like me and Jidmah, we do Buggy armies so Ghaz doesnt necessarily have a place for us either unless we tweak our lists and build it around him. Im not saying he is A grade burning dumpster fire tier bad, I think he CAN work, but its going to take MORE effort and luck. Those type of things are usually ironed out in competitive lists, you cant build lists around luck. Ive seen some crazy lists in my past, taking top 5 in tournies across the UK, but they arent usually the norm and rely on surprising the opponent.
Dont get me wrong, I want Ghaz to be good, just like you! Im going to get his model off ebay (as no one wants to split a box with me), but I just dont know how ill even begin to do a list for him. Like most buddy-ing Warbosses on here, im not a fan of the Goff klan trait, and Orkz are already grossly over pointed that I dont want to spend over an 8th of my list on a single character. I already hate how we pay so much for our stuff compared to the Imperials and Eldar. We cant even take squadrons of vehicles anymore outside of Dreads, Kans and Buggies. Ghaz needed to do more for the army outside of SMASH STUFF GUD! to be viable for me. His datasheet doesnt scream "smart tactical ork warlord" to me.
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Post by: yukishiro1
Right, and if that's fun for you, go for it. The game isn't mostly about competitive play.
But "saved these other units from a minimum of 4 damage per shooting phase" is not a competitive choice unless he's like 120 points or something silly like that.
I mean maybe we are just using different definitions of competitive here, because a mechanized list with ghaz is not something I'd ever consider competitive. You're paying a huge amount of his points for the buff auras that only hit infantry, so it's going to be a huge waste of points to run that in a list that doesn't get anything out of those auras. It's like an even more extreme form of not running him goffs re: what you're paying points for that you can't use.
Plus you're already gimped vs terrain in that sort of list, so doubling down with yet another model that can't navigate ruins is going to leave you even more vulnerable to anybody who can use terrain intelligently.
By "competitive" I mean "would you see this in a serious tournament list?" And it's very, very hard to see how a unit with such smattering of all the terrible keywords and attributes in 8th edition could be tournament competitive.
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Post by: JNAProductions
I do think he'll be fun in a more relaxed environment.
So, to help contribute with this, let me ask thusly:
What's the best way to run Ghaz? (Assuming the leaks are accurate.)
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Post by: tulun
flandarz wrote:Well, considering you got a 48% chance to make a Charge out of Tellyporta with him, I imagine that using Lootaz, Gitz, Boyz, or something else to clear the chaff first, then throwing him at what they were screening should work fairly often. We already do this with Dreadz and Warbosses (which have worse versions of Ghaz's stats and keywords), so I doubt it would take a non-competitive player to allow this to happen.
I believe the charge rate is 58%, given the individual rerolls we can do with 'Ere we go.
Which is still a bit inconsistent for a 300 point model. Risking that on, say, a 90 point Deff Dread feels a lot better.
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Post by: yukishiro1
Yeah I thought 'ere we go was more like 57%, going up to 72% with ES. Honestly it's been so long since I've run anything with 'ere we go that charges out of DS without them being ES I don't remember the number off-hand, lol.
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Post by: TedNugent
 JNAProductions wrote:I do think he'll be fun in a more relaxed environment.
So, to help contribute with this, let me ask thusly:
What's the best way to run Ghaz? (Assuming the leaks are accurate.)
Dude, I think everyone has already said tellyporta.
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Post by: tulun
JNAProductions wrote:I do think he'll be fun in a more relaxed environment.
So, to help contribute with this, let me ask thusly:
What's the best way to run Ghaz? (Assuming the leaks are accurate.)
Spoilers confirmed on official facebook for Ghaz, this is it.
I think without knowing more about what we get in PA, which might actually shake this up, it seems the rough consensus so far is:
1) Take him as another distraction in a mechanized list, as he is actually quite resilient and hard to ignore. Lascannons on him means lascannons not on your Mork, Gork, Buggies, Mek Guns.
2) Beta strike him out of the tellyporta with a bunch of other stuff arriving then too (Kommandos, Stormboyz, other Boys in tellyporta), and even if he fails the charge, he makes those units stronger.
One other use I see: He seems INSANELY well setup to wreck aggressors and centurions. Against RG and that ilk, he might easily make his points back especially if you keep him healthy with Medisquig.
Honestly, against armies that are trying to close in on you, he seems like a crazy countercharge.
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Post by: flandarz
Yeah, I'm not trying to argue that Ghaz is the best option we got. Just that you can use him in a competitive list without hurting yourself. Even before the point drops, we were seeing some unusual choices (at the time) popping up in Ork top 4s. I think it'd be foolish to believe that, in the future, you won't see one that has Ghaz in it.
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Post by: KurtAngle2
tulun wrote: JNAProductions wrote:I do think he'll be fun in a more relaxed environment.
So, to help contribute with this, let me ask thusly:
What's the best way to run Ghaz? (Assuming the leaks are accurate.)
Spoilers confirmed on official facebook for Ghaz, this is it.
I think without knowing more about what we get in PA, which might actually shake this up, it seems the rough consensus so far is:
1) Take him as another distraction in a mechanized list, as he is actually quite resilient and hard to ignore. Lascannons on him means lascannons not on your Mork, Gork, Buggies, Mek Guns.
2) Beta strike him out of the tellyporta with a bunch of other stuff arriving then too (Kommandos, Stormboyz, other Boys in tellyporta), and even if he fails the charge, he makes those units stronger.
One other use I see: He seems INSANELY well setup to wreck aggressors and centurions. Against RG and that ilk, he might easily make his points back especially if you keep him healthy with Medisquig.
Honestly, against armies that are trying to close in on you, he seems like a crazy countercharge.
Crazy countercharge but he's actually worse than before at fighting assuming you can use 3 CPs to fight again
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Post by: flandarz
One neat note: when you use Orkz is Never Beaten with him (assuming he's in CC), he can put in some real good work.
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Post by: tulun
KurtAngle2 wrote:
Crazy countercharge but he's actually worse than before at fighting assuming you can use 3 CPs to fight again
Moving to flat 4 damage makes him better against assault cents, which are a scourge against Ork armies.
But yeah. At least we still have the Character death strat for 2 CP. If he dies in melee, the unit he's fighting gets smacked for 7 str 10 attacks, re-rolling 1's to hit... Solid chance the unit gets decimated or dies unless they are sporting a good invul and a ton of wounds. Potentially more if he's the warlord, and has been buffed (current max of 11 attacks).
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Post by: gmaleron
I know the talk is all about Ghaz right now (don't blame you) I am curious about a few things if you guys could help a newbie:
-Can you use Telleporta multiple times?
-I want to run a Dread Waaagh anyone had any success with that formation?
-Best way to kit out Deff Dreads? Going to be Deathskullz
-Killa Kans worth it?
Thanks guys I appreciate the feedback 
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Post by: JNAProductions
 gmaleron wrote:I know the talk is all about Ghaz right now (don't blame you) I am curious about a few things if you guys could help a newbie:
-Can you use Telleporta multiple times?
-I want to run a Dread Waaagh anyone had any success with that formation?
-Best way to kit out Deff Dreads? Going to be Deathskullz
-Killa Kans worth it?
Thanks guys I appreciate the feedback
1) Yes, since it's used outside of a phase. But it does cost you CP each time.
2-3) No clue.
4) Generally not.
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Post by: An Actual Englishman
gmaleron wrote:I know the talk is all about Ghaz right now (don't blame you) I am curious about a few things if you guys could help a newbie:
-Can you use Telleporta multiple times?
-I want to run a Dread Waaagh anyone had any success with that formation?
-Best way to kit out Deff Dreads? Going to be Deathskullz
-Killa Kans worth it?
Thanks guys I appreciate the feedback
No point answering these questions until saga is out.
Killa kans are currently garbage but GW have stated there’s Grot Clans and these might make them viable. I’d recommend waiting. Magnetise your Deff dreads. Tellyporta can be used multiple times. Dread Waaaagh keeps competitive Orks viable thanks to the relic SAG.
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Post by: gmaleron
An Actual Englishman wrote: gmaleron wrote:I know the talk is all about Ghaz right now (don't blame you) I am curious about a few things if you guys could help a newbie:
-Can you use Telleporta multiple times?
-I want to run a Dread Waaagh anyone had any success with that formation?
-Best way to kit out Deff Dreads? Going to be Deathskullz
-Killa Kans worth it?
Thanks guys I appreciate the feedback
No point answering these questions until saga is out.
Killa kans are currently garbage but GW have stated there’s Grot Clans and these might make them viable. I’d recommend waiting. Magnetise your Deff dreads. Tellyporta can be used multiple times. Dread Waaaagh keeps competitive Orks viable thanks to the relic SAG.
Appreciate the feedback, I know about magnetizing and all that but is there any good way to run Deff Dreads that we know of?
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Post by: tulun
gmaleron wrote:
Appreciate the feedback, I know about magnetizing and all that but is there any good way to run Deff Dreads that we know of?
As Deathskull, I like Klaw, Klaw, KMB, KMB or Klaw, Saw, KMB, KMB.
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Post by: yukishiro1
Ghaz does look good against assault centurions, it seems like the only target he's likely to make back his points against.
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Post by: Vineheart01
Any vehicle or monster that lacks an invul in melee he's gonna mulch, but w/o adv + charge he isnt going to catch a lot of them
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Post by: gungo
Ghaz needs that waaagh fixed other then that new psychic powers, relics, strats, Gretchin hopefully getting some buffs to Mek guns and kills kans... I’m hoping something works from all this but if ghaz has a chance to be played outside of tellyport strat he needs his Waagh fixed.... even then he’s going to get speed bumped w chaff units..
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Post by: flandarz
Really, he needs two things to become a real monster.
1) A sweep option for his Klaw.
2) Waagh fix.
Right now, his best targets are slow, high Toughness and Wounds, and good Save units. And, to be fair, there's a lot of those, but they tend to be well screened, so you'll need good options to clear those screens before throwing Ghazzy at them (Lootaz, Gitz, Boyz, etc.).
He doesn't really need the fight twice Strat, cuz anything he comes into contact with is gonna be dead, or nearly so, except for mid to high model count chaff.
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Post by: cody.d.
He could survive a turn with a knight and kill them in short order. But honestly you could do that just as well with a normal old boss with Relic klaw. Ghaz has some uses but, they feel a bit too niche.
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Post by: Madjob
Specialist Mobs and Kustom Jobs are likely to be equivalent to the Tyranid Adaptive Physiologies (or, if you prefer, the IG Tank Aces) - take one instead of a WL trait, separate options for units of Infantry and Vehicle models. I thought they were pretty interesting for Tyranids, particularly the monster traits. I can see an easy one being a Grot Gunner upgrade for a vehicle's ranged weapons.
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Post by: Geemoney
This discussion made me realize Goff Bonebreakers could be a thing. Especially with Ghaz's new aura. 6 + D6 attacks, with exploding 6's and reroll 1's seems real good. The obvious issue is can Ghaz even keep up.
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Post by: cody.d.
The only thing I'm concerned with the Tank ace equivalents is how cheap, fragile and en mass are vehicles are meant to be. Unless there are some nice buffs for the gork/morkanaughts, or it affects a while unit.
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Post by: Jidmah
gmaleron wrote:Appreciate the feedback, I know about magnetizing and all that but is there any good way to run Deff Dreads that we know of?
Absolutely do magnetize your dreads and kanz. It's super-easy to do and you can even switch army between the models. They are literally the first models I've ever magnetized.
Both kanz and dreads have changed their optimal load-out with every single rule book released, if you don't magnetize them, you'll be looking at a mediocre to useless unit pretty soon. Automatically Appended Next Post: At least the new buggies are 3 per unit, so it really depends on the wording.
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Post by: addnid
tulun wrote: gmaleron wrote:
Appreciate the feedback, I know about magnetizing and all that but is there any good way to run Deff Dreads that we know of?
As Deathskull, I like Klaw, Klaw, KMB, KMB or Klaw, Saw, KMB, KMB.
I ran 6 not long ago against a triple flyer eldar list, saw + triple KMB. Worked great ! Klaw is the better option with deathskulls rerolls but I was lacking points.
I think you really need three kmb s if you really want to ensure hitting at least once
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Post by: Jidmah
I feel like a third KMB is overdoing it though.
You are taking away the melee abilities to get more shooting, but at that point you are trying to compete with the mek guns, SJD or the morkanaut, which are just a way better plattforms when looking for high AP anti-tank in a vehicle list.
It's not a discussion if you don't have the models available obviously.
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Post by: An Actual Englishman
It's a real shame on Ghaz'. No good player will ever let him touch his optimal targets. Unless there's a way to make him move quicker AND clear screens (without support) he will never be taken in competitive lists.
If he costs 280pts, that's 8 Meganobz.... Comparatively they have 24 wounds vs 12, 24 str 10 attacks D3 damage (12 hits average) vs 5 str 14/7 str 10 (5-6 hits average), same save, T4 Meganobz vs T7 Ghaz'. Meganobz can go in ruins, can be da jumped, are affected by WAAAAAAGGGHH! Aura, can fight twice without death and can be any clan.
Do his buffs even so that much for Goff boys? Has anyone run the maths?
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Post by: Jidmah
Well Math looks awesome considering how many buffs you have that multiply with each other...
They already tend to produce more hits than they have attacks, Thrakkas new aura increases that even more.
But, in my actual experience with running Skarboyz+Banner+Old Ghaz+Goff Culture was that anything they touch is either utterly obliterated or they bounce either way because AP0 attacks are not cutting it. For example, I charged a full mob of choppa boyz into a foetid bloat drone, which then killed five in overwatch, leaving 24 plus nob to swing and with just slightly above average rolls, it stayed alive with two wounds. With new Thrakka it would have been dead for sure, but that's a hell of an investment to kill a 138 point vehicle.
In comparison, when charging a fully buffed pox walker screen with Typhus and two defensive buffs on them, I still killed them more than two times over.
All these are to be taken with a grain of salt, as Death Guard are an army which lacks the ability to clear hordes efficiently and attack from long range.
As another thread on this forum correctly summarized, whether a unit is a great assault unit is solely decided by its ability to get into combat, not by its damage potential. Therefore, Thrakka won't change anything in the viability of boyz.
To end on a positive note, I believe Thrakka is much better at supporting Nobz oder MANz, because those can actually make full use of his buffs and are great against a wider range of targets. Tellyporting in with a screen of MANz might truely wreck someone's day.
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Post by: Emicrania
Lousy day at work, so time for some math!
Let's look first at 8 unbuffed MANz vs PEQ (primaris), VEQ (veichle), KEQ (knight) and IH (5++ 5+++dudes) + Warpath. In bold the best results:
32A 3+ S10 AP3 dmgD3 -1 to hit
vs PEQ 22,22W or 11 DM (dead Models)
vs IHE 11,85 or 4 DM
vs VEQ 17,77W or 1 DM
vs KEQ 14,22W or 0 DM
Now Buffed Goff MANz (as per "I fething Love Ghazzy") + Warpath
40A 3+ S10 AP3 dmgD3 / -1 to hit / rerolls 1 to hit / exploding 6´s
vs PEQ 40,39W or 20 DM
vs IHE 21,54W or 8 DM
vs VEQ 32,31W or 3 DM
vs KEQ 25,85W or 1 DM
Now Ghaz not in Goff and without Fist of Gork top bracket
5A 2+ S14 AP4 dmg4
vs PEQ 13.88W or 3 DM
vs IEH 6,17 or 1/2 DM
vs VEQ 13.88W or 1 DM
vs KEQ 7.40W or 0 DM
Same dude lower Bracket
7A 2+ S10 AP4 dmg4
vs PEQ 19,44 or 4 DM
vs IEH 8,64W or 1/2 DM
vs VEQ 15,55 or 1 DM
vs KEQ 10,37 or 0 DM
Now what happens if he´s with his buddies, with the blessing of Gork and top bracket
7A 2+ S18 AP4 dmg4 / rerolls 1 to hit / exploding 6´s
vs PEQ 27,00W or 6 DM
vs IEH 12,00W or 2/4 DM
vs VEQ 27,00W or 2 DM
vs KEQ 18,00W or 0 DM
And at last, bracket fully buffed
9A 2+ S14 AP4 dmg4 / rerolls 1 to hit / exploding 6´s
vs PEQ 34,56W or 8 DM
vs IEH 15,34W or 2/5 DM
vs VEQ 34,56 or 2 DM
vs KEQ 18,43 or 0 DM
SO, now you know that if you wanna go bananas and play 20 Goffs MANz with the beast from the east, you might get very happy. Also having him lower bracket might just be your best bet and make up for some real F U N.
Also, IH results were so screwed with Ghazzy because the FNP and Invu mess with the app algorithm of the app, so I included a minimum, maximum average to make it more reliable.
Cheers
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Post by: gungo
So any word on if this release has the big mek w kff?
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Post by: Jidmah
Nope. It does say "updated datasheets" but that might as well just be the primaris wolves.
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Post by: flandarz
KFF Mek was listed in the FW part of CA, so I doubt it.
I understand what we base viability a lot on killing potential, but I do want to note that Ghaz provides a lot of defensive benefits as well. While 8 MANz may throw out more damage, they actually die off far quicker than Ghaz does. But since the same stuff that kills them quickly is the same stuff that wants to target Ghaz, just being on the field improves your MANz survivability. So, while I see that his killing potential isn't where it should be (c'mon GW, give my boy a sweep with that Klaw!), I believe he can act as a force multiplier just by helping your big stuff survive into further rounds.
That said, I kinda hope Ghaz can get a Ramming Speed variant in PA (though, I don't understand why it doesn't already include Monsters). So, my wishlist for a "perfect" Ghaz would be to give him a sweep, fix his Waagh, and give him Ramming Speed.
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Post by: addnid
Jidmah wrote:I feel like a third KMB is overdoing it though.
You are taking away the melee abilities to get more shooting, but at that point you are trying to compete with the mek guns, SJD or the morkanaut, which are just a way better plattforms when looking for high AP anti-tank in a vehicle list.
It's not a discussion if you don't have the models available obviously.
6 fully magnetised and great looking dredds, plus 2 awful old metal ones. I can equip them how I want (i have extra dred arms magnetized somewhere), but I disagree with you on the "overdoing" of the 3rd KMB.
You only lose one lousy attack, and your dreads won't be meleeing more than once or twice per game, unless they get bogged down in chaff units. If they do, on extrat attack won't matter much anyway.
But 3 KMBs is really worth it because of neg to hit modifiers. With only 2 KMBs, even with deathskull reroll you won't be hitting much on a 6.
mek guns are good so yes there is competition, but if you play with kill points they can be trash against some armies. For ITC your opponent will get kill more every turn thanks to them, unless you obliterate his long range AT units. As to the SJD, I don't like it much myself, so no competition here. I have tried to make the morkanaut work, but that thing is just too expensive, and will die very fast t many armies (in a mirror match guess what will get SSAGed first ? Good old morkanaut).
So triple KMB deathskull dredd really come out on top currently IMHO, because its a versatile platform with toughness 7 6++ 8 wounds, cheaper than a scrapjet so if one or two get blown to bits on oppnent's alpha strike it's ok.
Also you can TP 3 of them on certain match ups, which is way more effective than TPing anything else we currently have. I just start them on the board though.
The real problem I have is on tables with ruins and buildings with 1st and second floors. But we don't have many ways to deal with units hidden up there anyway so...
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Post by: gungo
flandarz wrote:KFF Mek was listed in the FW part of CA, so I doubt it.
I understand what we base viability a lot on killing potential, but I do want to note that Ghaz provides a lot of defensive benefits as well. While 8 MANz may throw out more damage, they actually die off far quicker than Ghaz does. But since the same stuff that kills them quickly is the same stuff that wants to target Ghaz, just being on the field improves your MANz survivability. So, while I see that his killing potential isn't where it should be (c'mon GW, give my boy a sweep with that Klaw!), I believe he can act as a force multiplier just by helping your big stuff survive into further rounds.
That said, I kinda hope Ghaz can get a Ramming Speed variant in PA (though, I don't understand why it doesn't already include Monsters). So, my wishlist for a "perfect" Ghaz would be to give him a sweep, fix his Waagh, and give him Ramming Speed.
Odd buzzgrob doesn’t have a kff. Hope they don’t legends it with chinork.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
addnid wrote: Jidmah wrote:I feel like a third KMB is overdoing it though.
You are taking away the melee abilities to get more shooting, but at that point you are trying to compete with the mek guns, SJD or the morkanaut, which are just a way better plattforms when looking for high AP anti-tank in a vehicle list.
It's not a discussion if you don't have the models available obviously.
6 fully magnetised and great looking dredds, plus 2 awful old metal ones. I can equip them how I want (i have extra dred arms magnetized somewhere), but I disagree with you on the "overdoing" of the 3rd KMB.
You only lose one lousy attack, and your dreads won't be meleeing more than once or twice per game, unless they get bogged down in chaff units. If they do, on extrat attack won't matter much anyway.
But 3 KMBs is really worth it because of neg to hit modifiers. With only 2 KMBs, even with deathskull reroll you won't be hitting much on a 6.
mek guns are good so yes there is competition, but if you play with kill points they can be trash against some armies. For ITC your opponent will get kill more every turn thanks to them, unless you obliterate his long range AT units. As to the SJD, I don't like it much myself, so no competition here. I have tried to make the morkanaut work, but that thing is just too expensive, and will die very fast t many armies (in a mirror match guess what will get SSAGed first ? Good old morkanaut).
So triple KMB deathskull dredd really come out on top currently IMHO, because its a versatile platform with toughness 7 6++ 8 wounds, cheaper than a scrapjet so if one or two get blown to bits on oppnent's alpha strike it's ok.
Also you can TP 3 of them on certain match ups, which is way more effective than TPing anything else we currently have. I just start them on the board though.
The real problem I have is on tables with ruins and buildings with 1st and second floors. But we don't have many ways to deal with units hidden up there anyway so...
I’d wait til the Gretchen clan comes out. Odds are your right and it’s a shooting profile buff. I doubt Gretchen get melee buffs. I’m predicting militarium tempests treatment before PA without the subclans Automatically Appended Next Post: Games workshop heard a few of you guys were still holding out on optimism for ghaz release so they decided to charge you $185 for the box set!
At that price see you in 6 months when ghaz is sold separately.
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Post by: Gruxz
Where is that price coming from?
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Post by: Jidmah
No, it is listed in the codex part. Only the warboss on bike moved to FW.
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Post by: Billagio
Moving away from the Ghaz talk for a second, ive been out of the loop for a while and am getting back into things...Is the Morkanaut better than Gork now? Ive been seeing it a lot in batreps using that kustom ammo stratagem, when I left it seemed the prevailing wisdom was Gork > Mork
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Post by: PiñaColada
Valrak's source confirmed it at £105. That translates to 185USD (in GWs world)
Edit: Fixed numbers
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Post by: koooaei
How many times and at what str will a dead ghaz strike for the never beaten strat? He ain't got no 0 wound profile...
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Post by: Jidmah
 Billagio wrote:Moving away from the Ghaz talk for a second, ive been out of the loop for a while and am getting back into things...Is the Morkanaut better than Gork now? Ive been seeing it a lot in batreps using that kustom ammo stratagem, when I left it seemed the prevailing wisdom was Gork > Mork
Deepstriking Gorks are a truely competitive choice if your goals is winning tournaments. The Morkanaut is has great synergy with buggy lists, which themselves are notch below the competitive builds, but good enough for any semi-competitive meta.
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Post by: Gruxz
PiñaColada wrote:
Valrak's source confirmed it at £105. That translates to 185USD (in GWs world)
Edit: Fixed numbers
Hmm that could/should translate to about 135 euros. Using gw pricing. It's a bargain for what you get, but the world doesn't really need more nobz.
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Post by: tulun
Do you mean Gorks *aren't* a competitive choice?
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Post by: Billagio
Jidmah wrote: Billagio wrote:Moving away from the Ghaz talk for a second, ive been out of the loop for a while and am getting back into things...Is the Morkanaut better than Gork now? Ive been seeing it a lot in batreps using that kustom ammo stratagem, when I left it seemed the prevailing wisdom was Gork > Mork
Deepstriking Gorks are a truely competitive choice if your goals is winning tournaments. The Morkanaut is has great synergy with buggy lists, which themselves are notch below the competitive builds, but good enough for any semi-competitive meta.
Great thanks!
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Post by: Vineheart01
 koooaei wrote:How many times and at what str will a dead ghaz strike for the never beaten strat? He ain't got no 0 wound profile...
this is a valid concern that i bet was not addressed in PA and will probably pop up in the faq. He is the only character (im aware of) that has access to such a stratagem and degrades. Fortunately for him either way its ruled is fine since he doesnt become a useless git at 1-2 wounds but most often than not i'd probably want the 7A S10 over the 5A S14, unless it was a knight that did him in (unlikely, it will probably be a captain or other such T4 model with 5 or less dudes that finishes him off) As for the gork/mork thing, Morks are generally more fun/versatile to me but truth be told nauts are fairly easy to delete so best bet is always tellyport rammingspeed them into something that either cannot or REALLY doesnt want to fall back (if it survives). Which of course the Gork is better at. I usually have things i want the mork to cover with KFF (ideally other tough vehicles so its not as obvious to shoot him first) but thats just because i tend to run a lot of vehicles.
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Post by: Strat_N8
koooaei wrote:How many times and at what str will a dead ghaz strike for the never beaten strat? He ain't got no 0 wound profile...
Lashwhip Tyrants were specifically clarified in the Tyranid FAQ to perform their post-death attacks using their lowest profile, as was anything with a table using the Tyranid fight upon death stratagem. Most likely Ghaz will too.
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Post by: flandarz
Jidmah wrote:
No, it is listed in the codex part. Only the warboss on bike moved to FW.
Ah. My mistake.
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Post by: addnid
 Strat_N8 wrote: koooaei wrote:How many times and at what str will a dead ghaz strike for the never beaten strat? He ain't got no 0 wound profile...
Lashwhip Tyrants were specifically clarified in the Tyranid FAQ to perform their post-death attacks using their lowest profile, as was anything with a table using the Tyranid fight upon death stratagem. Most likely Ghaz will too.
Yes, I was also thinking about that « jurisprudence ». These 7 attacks will clear lots of stuff, especially if he was first of gorked (9 attacks !!). But will it matter much ?
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Post by: Vineheart01
laughed at the new article saying at the end "so grab ghaz a battlewagon for old times sake"
I mean its possible theres a stratagem where he embarks but that would be immensely weird, and probably only in an open-topped so doubt anyone would wanna do that
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Post by: gungo
Billagio wrote:Moving away from the Ghaz talk for a second, ive been out of the loop for a while and am getting back into things...Is the Morkanaut better than Gork now? Ive been seeing it a lot in batreps using that kustom ammo stratagem, when I left it seemed the prevailing wisdom was Gork > Mork
I magnetized mine to be fair it was a tough one to do.
I’m kinda annoyed by the ghaz release however I was thinking an easy way for them to fix ghaz profile to add more anti horde so he doesn’t get bogged down in chaff is give him a stikk bomb flinga an additional 2d6 str 3 ap- atks would solve that issue with hordes and provides a reason for the stilkbombs over the new gun.
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Post by: Kaptin_Grubkrumpa
If the box set is 105 Pounds, and that price is from GW does that mean a 3rd party retailer will be less expensive? (20% off or so?)
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Post by: TedNugent
Just a few points about tellyporta Ghaz.
You can tellyporta multiple units. You can also use Da Jump and deep strike stormboyz and Kommandos.
There's your chaff solution. If Ghaz shows up turn 2 they can't kill him until after that turn. Ghaz draws frantic fire which is not directed at your Boyz. Deep struck units provide bubble wrap against panic charges and smites. Consequently his chance of lasting until turn 4 drastically increase. Turn one Da Jump 40 man boyos to clear chaff and drill deeper into enemy lines.
DISCUSS!!!n!
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Post by: Vineheart01
personally if i were facing ghaz i would not be putting any weapons that i'd normally want hitting boyz into his face.
Unless he was at 1-2 wounds and i COULD kill him if i did poke him some more.
Ghaz isnt going to draw attention from boyz, nobz, manz, or even bikers. He's gonna draw it from vehicles, the stuff that actually CAN hurt him also hurts the vehicles.
edit: now that would be an interesting interaction with his no more than 4 wounds thing if nearby infantry were untargetable. Would have to have special clauses to still allow it such as closest unit otherwise that would be bonkers broken, but still interesting thought
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Post by: deffrekka
 Kaptin_Grubkrumpa wrote:If the box set is 105 Pounds, and that price is from GW does that mean a 3rd party retailer will be less expensive? (20% off or so?)
My LGS will be doing it for £80.75, and I asked the only Space Wolves played if he wanted to split it and he said no! So If i can get Ghaz from between £35-40 off eBay I will be. If not ill simply wait 6 months. The Nobs and Meganobs arent doing it for me. I have 15 Meganobs and 40 Nobs... If it were a Deffdread and a completely new kit to make Bully Boys I would have been all over it.
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Post by: tneva82
Nah. I have the CA here with me. KFF mek is in regular section. Warboss on bike is in FW section. Maybe you mixed with that?
Would be odd to have in FW section seeing mek w/ KFF has never been FW unit. At least bike warboss had model in FW section. Mek never had.
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Post by: deffrekka
gungo wrote: Billagio wrote:Moving away from the Ghaz talk for a second, ive been out of the loop for a while and am getting back into things...Is the Morkanaut better than Gork now? Ive been seeing it a lot in batreps using that kustom ammo stratagem, when I left it seemed the prevailing wisdom was Gork > Mork
I magnetized mine to be fair it was a tough one to do.
I’m kinda annoyed by the ghaz release however I was thinking an easy way for them to fix ghaz profile to add more anti horde so he doesn’t get bogged down in chaff is give him a stikk bomb flinga an additional 2d6 str 3 ap- atks would solve that issue with hordes and provides a reason for the stilkbombs over the new gun.
If it were a flinga he would fire both as the flinga isnt a grenade weapon its assault. They wont be doing anything to Ghaz overall except maybe changing his Great Waaagh! to affect him. We are stuck with his current iteration until we get a codex rewrite which even then they might not change him. If PA6 is a general bust for the Orkz (just look at how Space Wolves themed it is, the cover art, the new audio book, new series of novels, the name of the actually PA, I have a sneaky suspicious were gonna get the Nid and GSC treatment, even if Nids didnt get it that rough really) then my last hope is for CA2020 to FINALLY PT ORKZ CORRECTLY. Im sick to the bone paying more for units and weapons to other army equivalents. Im actually hoping CA2020 will raise the pts costs of other armies as they are all way to cheap. I still havent gotten over the fact Boyz cost 7ppm......
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Post by: flandarz
vineheart01 wrote:personally if i were facing ghaz i would not be putting any weapons that i'd normally want hitting boyz into his face.
Unless he was at 1-2 wounds and i COULD kill him if i did poke him some more.
Ghaz isnt going to draw attention from boyz, nobz, manz, or even bikers. He's gonna draw it from vehicles, the stuff that actually CAN hurt him also hurts the vehicles.
edit: now that would be an interesting interaction with his no more than 4 wounds thing if nearby infantry were untargetable. Would have to have special clauses to still allow it such as closest unit otherwise that would be bonkers broken, but still interesting thought
Ghaz should be able to pull aggro from MANz. They ain't got high Toughness, but that 2+ and 3W makes them prime targets for anti-armor.
tneva82 wrote:
Nah. I have the CA here with me. KFF mek is in regular section. Warboss on bike is in FW section. Maybe you mixed with that?
Would be odd to have in FW section seeing mek w/ KFF has never been FW unit. At least bike warboss had model in FW section. Mek never had.
Yeah. That's my mistake.
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Post by: Haasbioroid
My local store just announced 170.00 dollars for the preorder. And they never give a discount on anything. So you can pretty much guarantee that’s the retail in the US.
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Post by: tulun
Will Zagstruk get another look amongst all of this Ghaz talk?
I kind of like him but he never seemed worth it for taking a Goff detachment alone.
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Post by: Vineheart01
Zagstruck is awesome but his issue is he's primarily there for the auto-stormboy morale.
But, if youre running ghaz in a goff, that opens the door to actually use the guy. So thats a plus.
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Post by: yukishiro1
Zagstruck is really screwed by not having the advance and charge aura. I guess you could DS him and a bunch of stormboyz with ghaz...but why?
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Post by: Vineheart01
One of the things suggested was tellyport ghaz, dajump a boy squad, and DS in stormboyz or sneak in kommandoz.
If you go with stormboyz, might as well bring Zag. I've used him randomly on his own and hes decent just locked to a bad kulture.
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Post by: yukishiro1
Sure, but DS stormboyz are only good at MSU because they get free DS (and even then kommandos are usually better, and either way not taking them as ES is mental), for something like a max size squad you're better off shelling out the 1cp for a boyz squad instead that costs 60 points less and can use UGT.
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Post by: Ammo Pouch
Anyone recognise the clan markings on this rumour engine image?
Judging by the light paint scheme I’m thinking possible Snakebites or maybe one of the hinted new clans.
1
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Post by: An Actual Englishman
TedNugent wrote:Just a few points about tellyporta Ghaz.
You can tellyporta multiple units. You can also use Da Jump and deep strike stormboyz and Kommandos.
There's your chaff solution. If Ghaz shows up turn 2 they can't kill him until after that turn. Ghaz draws frantic fire which is not directed at your Boyz. Deep struck units provide bubble wrap against panic charges and smites. Consequently his chance of lasting until turn 4 drastically increase. Turn one Da Jump 40 man boyos to clear chaff and drill deeper into enemy lines.
DISCUSS!!!n!
And the bolded bit is the problem that I think everyone is getting wrong. Ghaz doesn't draw frantic fire. For a start, the weapons that hurt Ghaz are not as well used against Boyz. Secondly, once the opponent has done 4 wounds that phase to Ghaz, they know to ignore him until another. Finally, we're all banking on a <50% charge chance unless you're happy spending CP to try and make it. Roughly 50% of those units don't get in. On bad days, none of them do.
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Post by: deffrekka
Ammo Pouch wrote:Anyone recognise the clan markings on this rumour engine image?
Judging by the light paint scheme I’m thinking possible Snakebites or maybe one of the hinted new clans.
When show casing Orkz, GW tends to always go for Bad Moons, so I would guess its Bad Moons if that Big Choppa is Orkz (which it should be as its matches existing kits like the Deffdread, Killakans and Nobs) and not Necromunda instead. Outside of Bad Moons maybe Goffs to tie in with the focus on Ghaz. Snake Bites arent really a big show case klan, the only model weve had in their colours is the Rukkatrukk really.
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Post by: tulun
Vineheart01 wrote:One of the things suggested was tellyport ghaz, dajump a boy squad, and DS in stormboyz or sneak in kommandoz.
If you go with stormboyz, might as well bring Zag. I've used him randomly on his own and hes decent just locked to a bad kulture.
Yeah, tellyporta Ghaz up where the Stormboyz wanna charge if they are on the board. Zagstruk keeps them fearless.
Honestly, if you deep strike them, just keep them as Evil suns.
I think he'd be actually even potentially good on his own as you said. He's like 70 points, good keywords, and has a pretty good # of attacks. If you go the triple bat route, he could replace Makari. I'm not really convinced by the grot yet.
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Post by: yukishiro1
An Actual Englishman wrote: TedNugent wrote:Just a few points about tellyporta Ghaz.
You can tellyporta multiple units. You can also use Da Jump and deep strike stormboyz and Kommandos.
There's your chaff solution. If Ghaz shows up turn 2 they can't kill him until after that turn. Ghaz draws frantic fire which is not directed at your Boyz. Deep struck units provide bubble wrap against panic charges and smites. Consequently his chance of lasting until turn 4 drastically increase. Turn one Da Jump 40 man boyos to clear chaff and drill deeper into enemy lines.
DISCUSS!!!n!
And the bolded bit is the problem that I think everyone is getting wrong. Ghaz doesn't draw frantic fire. For a start, the weapons that hurt Ghaz are not as well used against Boyz. Secondly, once the opponent has done 4 wounds that phase to Ghaz, they know to ignore him until another. Finally, we're all banking on a <50% charge chance unless you're happy spending CP to try and make it. Roughly 50% of those units don't get in. On bad days, none of them do.
Can't reroll a reroll, so spending a CP doesn't help you with the charge. I don't think there's anything you can do to improve Ghaz' charge chances, unless there's a new strat, or I'm missing something.
'ere we go charge chance is like 57.5% IIRC, so slightly better than 50%. But nowhere near able to rely on. Almost half your games he's not going to be able to charge till T3.
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Post by: flandarz
Don't forget that Ghaz's Waagh works on any Kultur, so you can bring in ES Boyz/Stormboyz/whatever.
Spending a CP can help, if you only rerolled one dice with 'ere we go.
But yeah, Ghaz doesn't draw fire from anything that isn't a Vehicle or a MAN. That said, he still draws a lot because you have to declare targets when you choose a unit to shoot with. Between his Toughness and Invuln, and assuming a BS3+ S8 Dd6 weapon, your opponent would need to devote roughly 9 shots at him to get an average of 4 Damage on him. That's pretty significant, and if you're lucky, your opponent may need to target him again with another unit.
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Post by: tneva82
Until FAQ clarified/errata'ed you could reroll one dice out of your two with CP reroll(since that has to be done before anything else) and then if still fail 'ere we go reroll.
So say you roll 5 and 3. Drat. Failed. Super important, reroll 3 with CP. Still 3. Well ere we go and roll the 5 fishing for 6.
Tiny boost in odds, costs 1CP you have to commit. Not that good and FAQ made it so you have to declare all rerolls before you roll dice so that option went away. You could use CP reroll to reroll 1 dice and 'ere we go 2nd dice but you have to declare before rerollign any dice so you commit on rerolling both 5 and 3 in this example...And at that point might just as well use 'ere we go to rr both...
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Post by: yukishiro1
No, that doesn't work. You have to use the command reroll strat after rolling the charge, but before doing anything else, like rerolling one die with 'ere we go. Once you use 'ere we go on one die, you lose the ability to reroll the other with a CP.
You could CP re-roll FIRST, THEN do 'ere we go on the other die, but I'm not sure when that would really make mathematical sense.
edit: Oh, that's been FAQ'd away too? Which FAQ was it?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, here it is, the 2019 update:
Q: If I have access to several abilities that allow me to re-roll a
single dice, can I use more than one of these to affect a roll that
includes more than one dice? If so, how is this applied?
A: If you have more than one ability that allows you
to re-roll a single dice (for example, the Gaze of Fate
psychic power and the Command Re-roll Stratagem),
you can use both of these to re-roll the same 2D6, 3D6
etc. roll, but must declare any re-roll abilities that you
wish to use before any dice are re-rolled. Note that each
individual dice that makes up that roll can still only be
re-rolled once.
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Post by: flandarz
I think the key phrase there is "ability that allows you to reroll a SINGLE dice". Whether it would apply to 'ere we go, which allows a reroll of all dice, is unclear. That said, it sounds very gimmicky, so I'll concede regardless.
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Post by: yukishiro1
'Ere we go allows you to reroll a single dice. It also allows you to reroll two dice, if you so choose. If you're using it to reroll two, you obviously can't reroll either. If you're using it to reroll one dice, that FAQ comes into play, because you're using an ability that lets you reroll one dice.
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Post by: tneva82
You would have to declare CP reroll before rolling with 'ere we go and as you can't reroll rerolled dice you would be left with reroll single dice from 'ere we go and so we are left with two ability giving reroll of single dice and back to FAQ.
For curiosity's sake wonder how much of a boost it is and what situation would warrant paying 1CP rather than take free reroll just for sake of the tiny boost to odds...
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Post by: yukishiro1
Well, any time you roll a 4 and a 4, or something like that. You would go from a 33% chance that your reroll gets you in to a ~42% chance (eye-balling the math) that your double reroll gets you in. That's the biggest additional chance I think, for most rolls it would be a very insignificant boost.
But you can't do it, so it doesn't really matter.
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Post by: gibbindefs
Emicrania wrote:So help me out here. Monster means the he cannot:
- walk thru ruins
- fight 2nd floor
- be jumped
- be healed by painboy
- fight twice
- be embarked on a veichle
- use Waaagh
Am I missing something?
My proposed fix is to make him infantry and make him take up 5 or 6 slots in a transport. 5 would be ideal because even in transports that only fit 6 models he could still ride with his buddy, Makari. This would alleviate all of the above problems. I pray to Gork and Mork, that GW do this.
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Post by: Vineheart01
if you make him infantry he'd be nearly unkillable as he is.
Grotsnik is moderately resilient to snipers (not amazing but way better than painboys) and he'd be healing ghaz for 2D3 every turn (normal heal + medisquig) while only taking a maximum of 4 until melee happens.
You pretty much would never kill him until you got at Grotsnik or you managed to psyker/shoot/melee him in 1 round. Which is possible, but up to 50-50 luck holding strong due to that invul.
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Post by: gibbindefs
Vineheart01 wrote:if you make him infantry he'd be nearly unkillable as he is.
Grotsnik is moderately resilient to snipers (not amazing but way better than painboys) and he'd be healing ghaz for 2D3 every turn (normal heal + medisquig) while only taking a maximum of 4 until melee happens.
You pretty much would never kill him until you got at Grotsnik or you managed to psyker/shoot/melee him in 1 round. Which is possible, but up to 50-50 luck holding strong due to that invul.
Healing him makes him more unkillable than him being under 10 wounds and not getting shot at all(except by snipers)? They're still gonna mow down the rest of the horde around him and if he's tough to kill you just ignore him until the rest of the army is dead. He doesn't suddenly become OP if he is infantry, just functions better. Grotsnik can't use medi-squig because they aren't the same clan. If you are using CP every turn to heal Ghaz you aren't using it for more important stuff like rerolls, more dakka, shoot twice, skarboyz, tellyporta, etc.
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Post by: No wolves on Fenris
Jidmah wrote:Just be careful with overwatch, that's a different phase from the fight phase.
I'm probably going to chuck him in my buggies list to replace the deep striking deff dreads. Forcing the enemy to divert 4 damage each turn (and losing overkill) is pretty neat for a distraction carnifex. Might even bring back the painboy on bike to medi-squig him every turn, it's not like I have lots of use for my CP in that list anyways.
Thought it either counted as being in the fight phase. So he could at worse take 4wounds in overwatch then not be touched in combat
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Post by: An Actual Englishman
No wolves on Fenris wrote: Jidmah wrote:Just be careful with overwatch, that's a different phase from the fight phase.
I'm probably going to chuck him in my buggies list to replace the deep striking deff dreads. Forcing the enemy to divert 4 damage each turn (and losing overkill) is pretty neat for a distraction carnifex. Might even bring back the painboy on bike to medi-squig him every turn, it's not like I have lots of use for my CP in that list anyways.
Thought it either counted as being in the fight phase. So he could at worse take 4wounds in overwatch then not be touched in combat
Overwatch happens in the CHARGE phase mate. Y'know, as you're charging in to combat.
All - I've just read a review of Ghaz in a competitive sense. Dude who did the review basically said he's garbage in competitive play. He also said he had seen PA6 rules and there was nothing to help change that.
Looks like GW have royally fethed up Ghaz's new rules. There's so much whining for others to get the "4 Wound per Phase limit" rule too, so I bet it finds its way to much better units. Things are looking dire.
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Post by: Billagio
The marine players cant stand a non-marine faction getting something good that they dont have
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Post by: RedNoak
they should just rephrase the rule of the great whaagh to include the words : " ...and to himself"
would fix the biggest problem of ghaz... but yeah, guess orkz can't have nice things 
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Post by: tulun
An Actual Englishman wrote:No wolves on Fenris wrote: Jidmah wrote:Just be careful with overwatch, that's a different phase from the fight phase.
I'm probably going to chuck him in my buggies list to replace the deep striking deff dreads. Forcing the enemy to divert 4 damage each turn (and losing overkill) is pretty neat for a distraction carnifex. Might even bring back the painboy on bike to medi-squig him every turn, it's not like I have lots of use for my CP in that list anyways.
Thought it either counted as being in the fight phase. So he could at worse take 4wounds in overwatch then not be touched in combat
Overwatch happens in the CHARGE phase mate. Y'know, as you're charging in to combat.
All - I've just read a review of Ghaz in a competitive sense. Dude who did the review basically said he's garbage in competitive play. He also said he had seen PA6 rules and there was nothing to help change that.
Looks like GW have royally fethed up Ghaz's new rules. There's so much whining for others to get the "4 Wound per Phase limit" rule too, so I bet it finds its way to much better units. Things are looking dire.
Link to that review?
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Post by: RedNoak
i'd second that 
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Post by: An Actual Englishman
It was a post on "GrimDark Corner" on Facebook. I'll copy it verbatim here and see if I can provide link to the post. If I can't link the exact post I'll link the Facebook page;
GrimDark Corner wrote:So, I think it's about time we talked about the new Ghazghkull rules, from a competetive point of view...
tl;dr - they're pretty bad, unless fighting against the Tau!
.
First of all, his profile is needlessly overcomplicated. 9 wounds and no degrading profile would serve him much, much better.
The rule about losing only 4 wounds per phase looks neat but really doesn't mean all that much. Many armies can still dispatch him in 1 turn (Grey Knights and Eldar psychic-shooting-melee for example, or Sisters of battle and dark Angels can use stratagem to shoot him in the moving phase -shoot again-melee) or cripple him on 1st turn and finish him on overwatch. It's really only worth it again factions that focus on one phase only, like T'au, for example.
Second of all, his strength is surprisingly low - a regular warboss with a warlord trait can strike at the same strength as his maxed out profile while being (most likely) around half the price.
Third and perhaps most importantly, the monster keyword, while making narrative sense, utterly cripples him. Not only he doesn't benefit from his own buffs, he doesn't even get ork buffs, cannot use transports or Da jump or even be healed by Painboys.
Admittedly, he can still be healed by a Goff Painboy with a stratagem, but another curious thing that the greatest ork warboss doesn't really give you any CP benefits.
.
Overall, Makari does indeed have much more sensible rules than him. Overall he's sorely lacking compared to someone like Guilliman or Feirros and comparatively brings very little to the army compared to them while being overpriced, as his power level puts him on well over 200 points.
He could perhaps work as a niche, but certainly not as a faction's main named character and is a show of pretty shoddy and bad work from the GW rules team.
His rules are very flawed and while you can admire the new sculpt or enjoy playing him in narrative games, it's a shame that return of the most iconic ork in all of 40K has such a bitter aftertaste.
.
!!!UPDATE!!! I thought this goes without saying but to clarify:
1. This is a competetive discussion, if you are a causal player (which is completely fine) this doesn't concern you. Also, it's by no means an attack on those who like the new Ghazghkull.
2. I've read an advanced copy of the next PA book and while I cannot discuss it yet due to embargo, know that I've taken the stuff in it into consideration while writing this.
.
#HobbyNews #GrimDarkCorner #Orks
Facebook page link; https://www.facebook.com/pg/GDcornerWargaming/posts/?ref=page_internal
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Post by: flandarz
Reading the review, it seems that the reviewer didn't really say he was garbage, but rather that he a "good" choice. Which is fair. He mentions that he could have niche uses, which I also agree with. I still posit that a change to his Waagh, and a sweeping Klaw would make him far better, but that, as-is, you could certainly find a use for him even with his lackluster rules.
As for the 'ere we go discussion, the FAQ specifically calls out abilities that allow you to reroll a single dice. 'Ere we go is an ability that allows you to roll any or all of the dice. From a strict RAW perspective, it doesn't interact with the FAQ. Side note: if the hang-up is that using 'ere we go for a single dice counts, would we be able to "stagger" our rerolls if we used Ramming Speed on a Dread and only used 'ere we go on 2 of the dice?
Of course, by a strict RAW perspective, Waagh abilities can allow you to charge during your opponent's turn too, and they're both things I consider too gimmicky and "against the spirit of the rules" to use. Just saying there's a RAW argument to be made there.
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Post by: Jidmah
An Actual Englishman wrote:All - I've just read a review of Ghaz in a competitive sense. Dude who did the review basically said he's garbage in competitive play. He also said he had seen PA6 rules and there was nothing to help change that.
Looks like GW have royally fethed up Ghaz's new rules. There's so much whining for others to get the "4 Wound per Phase limit" rule too, so I bet it finds its way to much better units. Things are looking dire.
Well, then let's congratulate ourselves on our very own overpriced anti-synergistic melee only centerpiece. A true primarch, exactly what everyone wished for. 
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Post by: An Actual Englishman
Jidmah wrote: An Actual Englishman wrote:All - I've just read a review of Ghaz in a competitive sense. Dude who did the review basically said he's garbage in competitive play. He also said he had seen PA6 rules and there was nothing to help change that.
Looks like GW have royally fethed up Ghaz's new rules. There's so much whining for others to get the "4 Wound per Phase limit" rule too, so I bet it finds its way to much better units. Things are looking dire.
Well, then let's congratulate ourselves on our very own overpriced anti-synergistic melee only centerpiece. A true primarch, exactly what everyone wished for.
Don't put this on the players Jid. And true Primarchs are far superior.
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Post by: Jidmah
I own and play Mortarion regularly and he absolutely is not.
Any DG list is better without him.
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Post by: An Actual Englishman
flandarz wrote:Reading the review, it seems that the reviewer didn't really say he was garbage, but rather that he a "good" choice. Which is fair. He mentions that he could have niche uses, which I also agree with. I still posit that a change to his Waagh, and a sweeping Klaw would make him far better, but that, as-is, you could certainly find a use for him even with his lackluster rules.
I think this phrase summarises his review perfectly;
His rules are very flawed and while you can admire the new sculpt or enjoy playing him in narrative games, it's a shame that return of the most iconic ork in all of 40K has such a bitter aftertaste.
That doesn't sound like he was saying he is a "good" choice to me at all. It sounds a lot closer to "garbage".
Flandarz, I get that you want Ghaz to work but I just think you'll find when you get him on the table that he just doesn't. The best your opponent can do is stay away and ignore him. He just doesn't have the damage output to make his points back unless he's fighting against the perfect opponents, which a half decent opponent will never allow him to do.
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Jidmah wrote:I own and play Mortarion regularly and he absolutely is not.
Any DG list is better without him.
Perhaps in pure DG, but the brothers actually feature in quite a few Chaos lists and do relatively well when paired together.
Shame we haven't got another Primarch to call on I guess.
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Post by: flandarz
he could perhaps work as a niche, but certainly not as a faction's main named character and is a show of pretty shoddy and bad work from the GW rules team.
I was referring to the above in my statement. This says to me that, while certainly not a good choice, he can work against certain opponents, or in certain lists.
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Post by: tulun
The review doesn't sound encouraging, no.
Real shame. Hopefully in the grand scheme of things, he can at least be played semi-competitively and not be total deadweight.
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Post by: Jidmah
An Actual Englishman wrote:Perhaps in pure DG, but the brothers actually feature in quite a few Chaos lists and do relatively well when paired together.
Those lists died when Magnus got his invulnerable status revoked - which was more than two years ago. Neither have seen any noteworthy competitive play since.
It's irrelevant either way, because there is no Warptime to soup in for orks to give Thrakka a jump start.
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Post by: SemperMortis
An Actual Englishman wrote: flandarz wrote:Reading the review, it seems that the reviewer didn't really say he was garbage, but rather that he a "good" choice. Which is fair. He mentions that he could have niche uses, which I also agree with. I still posit that a change to his Waagh, and a sweeping Klaw would make him far better, but that, as-is, you could certainly find a use for him even with his lackluster rules.
I think this phrase summarises his review perfectly;
His rules are very flawed and while you can admire the new sculpt or enjoy playing him in narrative games, it's a shame that return of the most iconic ork in all of 40K has such a bitter aftertaste.
That doesn't sound like he was saying he is a "good" choice to me at all. It sounds a lot closer to "garbage".
Flandarz, I get that you want Ghaz to work but I just think you'll find when you get him on the table that he just doesn't. The best your opponent can do is stay away and ignore him. He just doesn't have the damage output to make his points back unless he's fighting against the perfect opponents, which a half decent opponent will never allow him to do.
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Jidmah wrote:I own and play Mortarion regularly and he absolutely is not.
Any DG list is better without him.
Perhaps in pure DG, but the brothers actually feature in quite a few Chaos lists and do relatively well when paired together.
Shame we haven't got another Primarch to call on I guess.
Maybe we will get lucky and they will give him a quick update in a month or two once they realize how utterly crap he is on the table. This is surprising from a business perspective though. You think they would want to move the model as much as possible, and if Primarchs are anything to go by, Ghaz is going to be costing somewhere around $150 for this model. I'll be honest, I won't be buying one for awhile if for no other reason then I don't have the time and money to put into a single character model that I most likely won't be using in games.
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Post by: yukishiro1
They're not even selling him alone for a while, they're doing the usual thing of forcing people to fork out $170ish for the new boxed set to get any of the new models.
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Post by: SemperMortis
yukishiro1 wrote:They're not even selling him alone for a while, they're doing the usual thing of forcing people to fork out $170ish for the new boxed set to get any of the new models.
Will be interesting to see the price
Mortarion and Magnus are $150 but Girlyman is like $60. Its a bit pathetic that Ghaz would be tougher if they reduced his wounds by 3 LOL
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Post by: Khorzain
What Ork player wants to have their book cover featuring a Space Wolf wielding a decapitated Ork head? Thankfully we have digital versions, I think I'm going to do a cover swap from Prophecy of the Wolf to Saga of the Beast instead, lol. 
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Post by: Vineheart01
i mean...theres still an ork on the cover. More than guard/tyranids/GSC can say lol
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Post by: GreenTidePackers
It's going to be a real shame if Ghaz is confirmed uncompetitive or not even a decent choice. Which means GW has completely failed two different ork releases. First the buggies and now ghaz. Its pretty comical at this point.
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Post by: gungo
To be fair this review doesn’t tell us anything we don’t know already about ghaz except the new PA BOOK doesn’t have any strats to help ghaz fix his issues...
Ghaz can’t use relics or non goff warlord traits so those wouldn’t help him.
The one thing he mentioned that I agree with and didn’t think of is ghaz really should have helped provide some CPs... orks tend to be very CP hungry and it would have been nice if he had this to help your army.
My wishlist-
Fix ghaz Waagh, give him a stikk bomb flinga, have makari deploy with him but act separately once deployed, and give ghaz An ability that reduces the teleport strategem by 1 or make skarboys in his detachment for free, and ghaz would be great!!!
What’s the email address for faq questions and suggestions?
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Post by: Vineheart01
Yeah, having him give us a couple CP would have been nice.
Gman isnt much more expensive, has reroll auras out the ass, full character protected, super tanky, and a beatstick if he does see melee and he gives 3CP as well.
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Post by: Jidmah
Just fixing his Waaagh! would already put him into "not great, but OK" territory, a place where he can be fixed by point drops.
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Post by: GreenTidePackers
Jidmah wrote:Just fixing his Waaagh! would already put him into "not great, but OK" territory, a place where he can be fixed by point drops.
Idk even being conservative with point cost; him being 280 points i think he'd need a lot more than his current ruleset and getting advance and charge. I think he would move into the ok area if he got that plus getting access to the typical infantry strats and jump.
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Post by: yukishiro1
Vineheart01 wrote:Yeah, having him give us a couple CP would have been nice.
Gman isnt much more expensive, has reroll auras out the ass, full character protected, super tanky, and a beatstick if he does see melee and he gives 3CP as well.
And even so, Ultramarines see limited competitive play because they're weak compared to other marine factions.
Rather ominous for Ghaz, who seems to be a much weaker model, in an even weaker faction relative to other Orks than Ultramarines are relative to other Marines.
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Post by: gungo
I’m posting this here so people remember to feedback ghaz and anything in the new PA book that needs it.
40KFAQ@gwplc.com
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Post by: Jidmah
GreenTidePackers wrote: Jidmah wrote:Just fixing his Waaagh! would already put him into "not great, but OK" territory, a place where he can be fixed by point drops.
Idk even being conservative with point cost; him being 280 points i think he'd need a lot more than his current ruleset and getting advance and charge. I think he would move into the ok area if he got that plus getting access to the typical infantry strats and jump.
The thing is, no amount of point drops can fix a unit that doesn't work, see burnas. Going from the premise that an assault units worth is solely decided by its ability to reach combat, Thrakka needs to be able to reach combat before you can even stat to calculate his efficiency in combat or apply stratagems. His aura helps him with that.
If they don't fix his aura, and drop him to 200 points, he will still be a large chunk of points without a purpose. Automatically Appended Next Post: yukishiro1 wrote: Vineheart01 wrote:Yeah, having him give us a couple CP would have been nice.
Gman isnt much more expensive, has reroll auras out the ass, full character protected, super tanky, and a beatstick if he does see melee and he gives 3CP as well.
And even so, Ultramarines see limited competitive play because they're weak compared to other marine factions.
Rather ominous for Ghaz, who seems to be a much weaker model, in an even weaker faction relative to other Orks than Ultramarines are relative to other Marines.
The ultramarine players in my area have replaced Gulliman with Calgar+Sergeant, because the provide just as much for less points. Automatically Appended Next Post: gungo wrote:I’m posting this here so people remember to feedback ghaz and anything in the new PA book that needs it.
40KFAQ@gwplc.com
Thank you. People, do this. Send polite mails to them explaining the problem and proposing solutions. Make sure all our unclear rules are clarified this time.
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Post by: An Actual Englishman
Jidmah wrote:
Thank you. People, do this. Send polite mails to them explaining the problem and proposing solutions. Make sure all our unclear rules are clarified this time.
Perhaps we need to collate what needs clarifying, what needs improving and what is just outright bad?
Maybe wait until we know the contents of PA6 first?
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Post by: addnid
deffrekka wrote: Kaptin_Grubkrumpa wrote:If the box set is 105 Pounds, and that price is from GW does that mean a 3rd party retailer will be less expensive? (20% off or so?)
My LGS will be doing it for £80.75, and I asked the only Space Wolves played if he wanted to split it and he said no! So If i can get Ghaz from between £35-40 off eBay I will be. If not ill simply wait 6 months. The Nobs and Meganobs arent doing it for me. I have 15 Meganobs and 40 Nobs... If it were a Deffdread and a completely new kit to make Bully Boys I would have been all over it.
You can I just ordered mine off eBay (seller name is wayestar studio) 5 min ago. There are more than 10 available. I’ll convert a grot for Makari though because price is too high for Makari
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Post by: Jidmah
An Actual Englishman wrote: Jidmah wrote:
Thank you. People, do this. Send polite mails to them explaining the problem and proposing solutions. Make sure all our unclear rules are clarified this time.
Perhaps we need to collate what needs clarifying, what needs improving and what is just outright bad?
Maybe wait until we know the contents of PA6 first?
We did this a couple of times in the past, but in the end, it seems many voices are louder than one.
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Post by: Emicrania
Like what ? Should we agree on something for once and act in a decisive and courteous manner?
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Post by: PiñaColada
I think it shouldn't be done until saturday afternoon when we know what strats etc are in the book, (the NDA will drop by then).
As of right now the only thing I'd write in and plead about is the advance & charge on himself. That's an easy fix and seems like a logical way of getting Ghaz to work in more than one way (tellyporta)
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Post by: Emicrania
That sounds good to me.
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Post by: deffrekka
Emicrania wrote:Like what ? Should we agree on something for once and act in a decisive and courteous manner?
We're Orkz.... that wont happen 
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Post by: Waaaghbert
How fitting that even in Fluff that is the one thing only Ghaz can achieve - uniting the orks
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Post by: Emicrania
For Ghazzy is worth
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Post by: Vineheart01
People will probably include other things in their email on saturday about ghaz but really the ultimate change needed is just his aura working on himself.
I dont see why HIS version of the waaagh isnt universal (affecting ORK UNIT). That alone would make him rather interesting.
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Post by: gungo
Vineheart01 wrote:People will probably include other things in their email on saturday about ghaz but really the ultimate change needed is just his aura working on himself.
I dont see why HIS version of the waaagh isnt universal (affecting ORK UNIT). That alone would make him rather interesting.
I asked for all ork non vehicle models to work with great waaggh
For makari to deploy with ghaz but act as separate units once deployed
For ghaz to automatically make boy units in his Goff detachment skarrboys for free
But emphasized the waaggh is the faq that needs to be done to make ghaz usable.
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Post by: tulun
Vineheart01 wrote:People will probably include other things in their email on saturday about ghaz but really the ultimate change needed is just his aura working on himself.
I dont see why HIS version of the waaagh isnt universal (affecting ORK UNIT). That alone would make him rather interesting.
Probably what happened when he could advance and charge was he was actually doing well in play testing with the casual lists they had on the board.
And they couldn’t have that.
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Post by: RedNoak
Maybe someone with more points in the speech skill could write a form letter we all could send indepently to GW faq email
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Post by: Tomsug
Keep calm and wait for the PA book with additional rules.
Conclusion could be made only from the whole context.
So relax and think about the color scheme. That' s the only thing, you can seriously discuss right now.
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Post by: Elfric
Are we not getting any previews of strats or warlord traits? On another note, I just dont understand the Monster keyword, what real benefits does it have especially over infantry. I still can't believe Guiliman also cannot ride inside a vehicle
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Post by: tulun
Tomsug wrote:Keep calm and wait for the PA book with additional rules.
Conclusion could be made only from the whole context.
So relax and think about the color scheme. That' s the only thing, you can seriously discuss right now.
From someone who had a preview copy, apparently the other content doesn’t fix Ghazghkull problems.
I reckon we’ll see lots of other good PA stuff though.
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Post by: Vineheart01
Monster keyword is actually a negative in 8th edition. It went from one of the best unit types to probably the worst, as theres plenty of vehicle based rules and very few monster based ones.
More than likely he's a monster tag purely because...well...he IS a monster.
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Post by: deffrekka
 Elfric wrote:Are we not getting any previews of strats or warlord traits? On another note, I just dont understand the Monster keyword, what real benefits does it have especially over infantry. I still can't believe Guiliman also cannot ride inside a vehicle
The monster keyword gives no buffs whatsoever and could even give away more negatives with certain armies getting buffs or strats vs monsters/vehicles. Im surprised Ghaz cant ride in any transport at all. What Warboss cant ride in his own battlewagon/fortress!!! It isnt fluffy or anything. They only gave it him due to his new models size and to stop him from getting healed from a Painboy.
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Post by: Gruxz
I want a strategem that lets Ghaz use a trukk and use that as a club for lots of attacks. That would be propa orky! SMASH!!!
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Post by: PiñaColada
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/03/17/orks-da-new-rulezgw-homepage-post-3/
'ere we go, mostly flying 'eadbutt that interests me here but fun stuff overall
Edit: I mean the spanner strat is great for big blobs of lootas (and not so much for burnas), assuming you have CP and really want something dead. I also really want to know what a Forktress is
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Post by: tulun
God, those are all basically bad.
The Loota one is 2 CP.. so just like, use a command reroll if you need to? Not like your Lootas will survive 3 rounds anyway.
The flyer one is slightly interesting, about it.
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Post by: PiñaColada
Well new psychic powers (one for each clan) could easily be good and the ability to buy the kustom jobs for CP instead of getting them for free with the mekboy workshop is interesting. I really thought they'd make us use that thing. I assume we'll get 1 or 2 worthwhile upgrades out of that.
And the flyer strat is solid AF on a burna-bomma IMO. Auto-explode 6" and flat 3 MWs? Krump that castle!
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Post by: Kaptin_Grubkrumpa
I love the idea of the Crash and Burn automatically with a flyer
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Post by: tulun
PiñaColada wrote:Well new psychic powers (one for each clan) could easily be good and the ability to buy the kustom jobs for CP instead of getting them for free with the mekboy workshop is interesting. I really thought they'd make us use that thing. I assume we'll get 1 or 2 worthwhile upgrades out of that.
And the flyer strat is solid AF on a burna-bomma IMO. Auto-explode 6" and flat 3 MWs? Krump that castle!
Let's hope the other upgrades are better. Maybe one will be Grot Gunners, which would probably be an auto take.
That psychic power would be epic on Evil Suns. Maybe there will be something to boost the Blood Axe charge rate.
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Post by: addnid
Gruxz wrote:I want a strategem that lets Ghaz use a trukk and use that as a club for lots of attacks. That would be propa orky! SMASH!!!
Hell yeah ! Best idea ever
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Post by: Gruxz
That bloodaxe power is actually really interesting. It lasts untill your next turn. In other words, you get to fight first twice! If you want something dead in CC, thats the way to go.
But still... it's bloodaxes lol
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Post by: deffrekka
Tbh that Blood Axe psychic power is pretty damn good, and the fact it has no range limit is crazy! Just need line of sight. The bad part is its on Blood Axes only and only affects their units
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The Piston Kustom Job seems alright, for maybe a walking dread unit. Im assuming it works for all the unit. Have as Evil Sunz and they are moving 10" with a reroll to advance. Pair that with a Deffkilla Wartrike and they can charge after. Pretty tasty.
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Also I would never get a Mek Shop just to get a kustom Job for free. 1. the Mek Shop is still squig gak. 2. it uses up one of your force org slots..... you could have 3 Battalions and simply pay the CP for the Kustom Job. Otherwise your loosing 5CP anyway to take a force org for a fortification
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Post by: Vineheart01
everybody else gets an auto explode strat "before you roll the die"
We get "after moving, it dies and blows up" seriously? what kind of gak is that? if it had an extra effect on top sure but wtf gw?
So a dakkajet reduced to 0 wounds normally, cant use the auto-explode on. It has to actively destroy itself to auto explode. But everyone else just spends a CP whenever it actually dies.
Talk about horse crap.
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Post by: tulun
Vineheart01 wrote:everybody else gets an auto explode strat "before you roll the die"
We get "after moving, it dies and blows up" seriously? what kind of gak is that? if it had an extra effect on top sure but wtf gw?
So a dakkajet reduced to 0 wounds normally, cant use the auto-explode on. It has to actively destroy itself to auto explode. But everyone else just spends a CP whenever it actually dies.
Talk about horse crap.
Actually could be very good on Burna Bombers. You use he Burna Bombs in the movement phase, then just blow yourself up. Probably do much damage then you'd ever do keeping it alive.
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Post by: flandarz
Honestly, I think you'd want to use the Piston Kustom Job on a mob of Kanz. 9"+1d6" rerollable Advance means their slow speed is far less of an issue.
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