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Post by: liljeremyd
What happens first, the roll for Instant Death from force weapons or the FNP roll? A buddy and I were talking about a game between Draigo and 20 Paladins against 2 Warbosses and 20 Nob Bikers and that ruling would play a big part.
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Post by: jdjamesdean@mail.com
It's a bit muddled in the mixture.
There's argument as always as to which way this one gos.
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Post by: rigeld2
Two possibilities:
1). You allow Force Weapons to be activated first, thus negating FNP. This exact interpretation breaks rules when applying it to other "unsaved wound" mechanics like Entropic Strike and therefore cannot be correct.
2). You allow FNP to be rolled first. There are no rules conflicts or broken rules.
You should always strive not to use an interpretation that breaks rules.
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Post by: Ub3rb3n
Agreed with rigled however if one wound goes through and the force weapons get activated then I would say no fnp after that point, for that round of combat at least
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Post by: easysauce
feel no pain is NOT A SAVE this has been covered in the FAQ, that is why you can use it to feel no pain on perils of the warp
also, the FAQ specifically adresses instant death vs feel no pain
from the FAQ
Q: Can Feel No Pain rolls be made against unsaved Wounds
inflicted by weapons that have the Instant Death special rule? (p35)
A: No.
you can only make a feel no pain roll on an unsaved wound, so its too late to negate the instant death conferred by force weapons
so since all unsaved wounds from force weapons inflict instant death, feel no pain is NOT a save, and you make the test immediately after an unsaved wound, you do NOT get feel no pain against the instant death caused by activated force weapons...
or against 2x str instant death of course
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Post by: DeathReaper
Ub3rb3n wrote:Agreed with rigled however if one wound goes through and the force weapons get activated then I would say no fnp after that point, for that round of combat at least
Except that can not happen. As Rig pointed out If you allow activation before FNP there are several other rules broken and rigeld2 wrote:This exact interpretation breaks rules when applying it to other "unsaved wound" mechanics like Entropic Strike and therefore cannot be correct.
But if you allow FNP to be rolled first. There are no rules conflicts or broken rules. @easysauce Read the quote of Rig as to why that way breaks mechanics like Entropic Strike and therefore can not be correct. We know this is true, however FNP does create a saved wound and to trigger something off of a saved wound is breaking rules.
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Post by: easysauce
it is not a saved wound, it is an IGNORED wound,
big difference,
feel no pain is NOT a save, so wounds that came before the feel no pain roll are UNSAVED, but wounds ignored by FNP are ignored
main rule book even says this EXPLICITY "feel no pain can not be used against unsaved wounds that inflict instant death"pg 35
it specifically says as well, "the wound is DISCOUNTED, treat it as having been saved" but is not actually saved pg 35
cannot have it both ways, the FAQ allowance for it to be used against perils of the warp further backs up the fact that it is not a save, hence is not counted for unsaved wounds
by you're "logic" a t4 model hit by a str 8 weapon still gets feel no pain, since the wound isnt "unsaved" till after it fails the feel no pain rule
Automatically Appended Next Post:
not to mention the only circumstance feel no pain can be used is on an unsaved wound... so if the wound was not unsaved, you cannot use feel no pain anyway,
"when a model with this special rule SUFFERS AN UNSAVED WOUND, it can make a special feel no pain roll"pg 35
so again, you are trying to have it both ways, by saying it IS an unsaved wound so you get a feel no pain roll, but you are also saying it is NOT an unsaved wound so you get your feel no pain despite the unsaved wound causing instant death.
that is just wrong, since the FNP can only be used on unsaved wounds, it has already suffered the unsaved wound, and if instant death applies to that unsaved wound, the model dies, with no FNP roll no more FAQ needed, anyone trying to use FNP on unsaved wounds causing instant death, from any source, is cheating
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Post by: rigeld2
Read the 6th edition rule book please.
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Post by: liturgies of blood
No son, calm down. If you pass FNP it is not an ignored wound, it is a wound that is treated as if it had been saved. Slightly different and it is no longer an unsaved wound either way.
Also I haven't read the GK codex in much detail so there may be other issues but if a Force weapon isn't activated the wound isn't ID so there is no reason to ignore FnP. The long story is that you have 2 rules going off at the same time and it is messy. Strictly I believe the rulebook says something along the lines of in cases where rules timing conflicts the player who's turn it is gets to choose but I may be wrong. Problem is that creates situations where on my turn my Gk are deadly but in yours they aren't so great.
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Post by: jdjamesdean@mail.com
easysauce wrote:it is not a saved wound, it is an IGNORED wound,
big difference,
feel no pain is NOT a save, so wounds that came before the feel no pain roll are UNSAVED, but wounds ignored by FNP are ignored
main rule book even says this EXPLICITY "feel no pain can not be used against unsaved wounds that inflict instant death" pg 35
it specifically says as well, "the wound is DISCOUNTED, treat it as having been saved" but is not actually saved pg 35
cannot have it both ways, the FAQ allowance for it to be used against perils of the warp further backs up the fact that it is not a save, hence is not counted for unsaved wounds
by you're "logic" a t4 model hit by a str 8 weapon still gets feel no pain, since the wound isnt "unsaved" till after it fails the feel no pain rule
Automatically Appended Next Post:
not to mention the only circumstance feel no pain can be used is on an unsaved wound... so if the wound was not unsaved, you cannot use feel no pain anyway,
"when a model with this special rule SUFFERS AN UNSAVED WOUND, it can make a special feel no pain roll" pg 35
so again, you are trying to have it both ways, by saying it IS an unsaved wound so you get a feel no pain roll, but you are also saying it is NOT an unsaved wound so you get your feel no pain despite the unsaved wound causing instant death.
that is just wrong, since the FNP can only be used on unsaved wounds, it has already suffered the unsaved wound, and if instant death applies to that unsaved wound, the model dies, with no FNP roll no more FAQ needed, anyone trying to use FNP on unsaved wounds causing instant death, from any source, is cheating
Go look up entropic strike and apply your same logic.
Until than calm down, take 3 breaths, remember this is just the internet.
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Post by: easysauce
you need to stop being a cheat man, pg 35 says "when a model with this rule suffers an UNSAVED wound, it can make a special feel no pain roll to AVOID being wounded (this is NOT a SAVING throw). Roll a D6 each time an UNSAVED wound is suffered"
"note that feel no pain ROLLS cannont be made against UNSAVED wounds that inflict instant death" pg 35
has the model suffered an unsaved wound? yes, you cannot even in normal circumstances make a feel no pain roll unless you suffered an unsaved wound in the first place
does it inflict instant death? yes
does it then get a FNP ROLL? no
again, you use FNP on unsaved wounds that cause instant death, you are CHEATING
FAQ and BRB are explicit in stating this
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Post by: jdjamesdean@mail.com
easysauce wrote:you need to stop being a cheat man, pg 35 says "when a model with this rule suffers an UNSAVED wound, it can make a special feel no pain roll to AVOID being wounded (this is NOT a SAVING throw). Roll a D6 each time an UNSAVED wound is suffered"
"note that feel no pain ROLLS cannont be made against UNSAVED wounds that inflict instant death" pg 35
has the model suffered an unsaved wound? yes, you cannot even in normal circumstances make a feel no pain roll unless you suffered an unsaved wound in the first place
does it inflict instant death? yes
does it then get a FNP ROLL? no
again, you use FNP on unsaved wounds that cause instant death, you are CHEATING
FAQ and BRB are explicit in stating this
Again, apply your logic to entropic strike.
Whoops, you've broken the game.
Entropic Strike is worded with the same timing as "Force"
You really need to stop accusing people of cheating, attack the argument not the person.
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Post by: easysauce
entropic strike is not the same, and does not over rule the GW issued FAQ
Q: Can Feel No Pain rolls be made against unsaved Wounds
inflicted by weapons that have the Instant Death special rule? (p35)
A: No.
did the model suffer an unsaved wound, yes, do force weapons cause ID when activated IMMEDIATELY after causing an unsaved wound? yes
if you read the above official FAQ rule and go "well this weapon causes instant death, but I still get feel no pain" you are cheating, and if you really need to lawyer and cheat to win, well have fun with that
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Post by: DeathReaper
easysauce wrote:it is not a saved wound, it is an IGNORED wound, big difference... ...you need to stop being a cheat man, pg 35 says "when a model with this rule suffers an UNSAVED wound, it can make a special feel no pain roll to AVOID being wounded (this is NOT a SAVING throw). Roll a D6 each time an UNSAVED wound is suffered" "note that feel no pain ROLLS cannont be made against UNSAVED wounds that inflict instant death" pg 35
Now quote the rest of it, because you missed a really important part. Never mind, I will do it for you "On a 4 or less, you must take the Wound as normal. On a 5+, the unsaved Wound is discounted - treat it as having been saved." I underlined the important part for you.
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Post by: easysauce
you only get to treat it as being saved if you got to make the feel no pain roll in the first place, and you only get to make feel no pain on unsaved wounds...
you are saying "I get to use feel no pain on unsaved instant death wounds, because if I make the FNP roll, the wound is then saved"
thats circular logic, and FNP happens after the instant death rule is applied to the unsaved wound
models with FNP only make the roll on unsaved wounds, and unsaved wounds that cause ID disallow FNP rolls
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Post by: jdjamesdean@mail.com
easysauce wrote:entropic strike is not the same, and does not over rule the GW issued FAQ
Q: Can Feel No Pain rolls be made against unsaved Wounds
inflicted by weapons that have the Instant Death special rule? (p35)
A: No.
did the model suffer an unsaved wound, yes, do force weapons cause ID when activated IMMEDIATELY after causing an unsaved wound? yes
if you read the above official FAQ rule and go "well this weapon causes instant death, but I still get feel no pain" you are cheating, and if you really need to lawyer and cheat to win, well have fun with that
Stop accusing people of cheating based on the fallacy of your rules assumption. Automatically Appended Next Post: easysauce wrote:you only get to treat it as being saved if you got to make the feel no pain roll in the first place, and you only get to make feel no pain on unsaved wounds...
you are saying "I get to use feel no pain on unsaved instant death wounds, because if I make the FNP roll, the wound is then saved"
thats circular logic, and FNP happens after the instant death rule is applied to the unsaved wound
models with FNP only make the roll on unsaved wounds, and unsaved wounds that cause ID disallow FNP rolls
Again, apply the same logic to Entropic Strike. If you're saying the wording works here than it will work there.
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Post by: easysauce
using something completely tangential, like entropic strike, which has nothing to do with instant death,
and completely contradictory to the official FAQ is cheating, no amount of fancy talk gets around that
the force weapon inflicts instant death
the FAQ says
Q: Can Feel No Pain rolls be made against unsaved Wounds
inflicted by weapons that have the Instant Death special rule? (p35)
A: No.
thats as clear as it gets, if you take FNP rolls on unsaved wounds caused by weapons that cause instant death, you are cheating
and calling a cheat a cheat is not a personal attack.. its just a fact Automatically Appended Next Post: the entropic strike issue is separate from this, it is not proof that you get to break the rules as intended, and the rules as written, and the FAQ as written Automatically Appended Next Post: entropic strike does not cause instant death, thats why you can FNP it, that is the key difference
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Post by: Papaskittels
Easysauce, Please get your act together.
We are an amazing Forum and a great community, And Glad you joined.
But There is no need for your ALL CAPS RAGE. Because Really it does make you look a rather foolish newcomer.
Enjoy the game, and relax.
Happy wargaming!
Papa
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Post by: liturgies of blood
So when do you make a FNP roll easysauce?
Is it when you have an unsaved wound?
When do you make the check for a force weapon? Cos that's the important question. If they are both when you have an unsaved wound then you have an issue.
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Post by: Fragile
easysauce wrote:using something completely tangential, like entropic strike, which has nothing to do with instant death,
and completely contradictory to the official FAQ is cheating, no amount of fancy talk gets around that
the force weapon inflicts instant death
the FAQ says
Q: Can Feel No Pain rolls be made against unsaved Wounds
inflicted by weapons that have the Instant Death special rule? (p35)
A: No.
thats as clear as it gets, if you take FNP rolls on unsaved wounds caused by weapons that cause instant death, you are cheating
and calling a cheat a cheat is not a personal attack.. its just a fact
Can you show me a Force Weapon that has the ID rule on it ?
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Post by: insaniak
easysauce wrote:and calling a cheat a cheat is not a personal attack.. its just a fact
Just FYI, the old 'It's not rude if it's true' defence doesn't hold much water around here. Dakka's rule #1 is to be polite. If you wish to participate in discussion on this forum, you need to address the argument without attacking the poster.
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Post by: easysauce
Fragile wrote:easysauce wrote:using something completely tangential, like entropic strike, which has nothing to do with instant death,
and completely contradictory to the official FAQ is cheating, no amount of fancy talk gets around that
the force weapon inflicts instant death
the FAQ says
Q: Can Feel No Pain rolls be made against unsaved Wounds
inflicted by weapons that have the Instant Death special rule? (p35)
A: No.
thats as clear as it gets, if you take FNP rolls on unsaved wounds caused by weapons that cause instant death, you are cheating
and calling a cheat a cheat is not a personal attack.. its just a fact
Can you show me a Force Weapon that has the ID rule on it ? y es it says right in the main rule book, when activated (wich is immediate after causing an unsaved wound) the force weapon has the instant death special rule
pg 37.
"force
if a psyker inflicts one or more unsaved wounds with a force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a warp charge point and taking a psychic test (see pg 67). if the test is failed or the beare has no warp charge to spend there is no additional effect. If the test is passed, all unsaved wounds inflicted by the force weapon that turn have the instant death special rule (see pg 38)"
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Post by: rigeld2
easysauce wrote:the entropic strike issue is separate from this, it is not proof that you get to break the rules as intended, and the rules as written, and the FAQ as written
It's not a separate issue. If you take your logic and apply it in a situation without ID, rules are broken.
entropic strike does not cause instant death, thats why you can FNP it, that is the key difference
Zoom. That was the point flying right over your head.
Unsaved Wound = UW
According to you:
UW caused. Special rule triggers off of UW. Rule is applied. FNP roll made, wound treated as saved. How can you treat a wound as saved if you also applied the UW trigger?
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Post by: Fragile
easysauce wrote:Fragile wrote:easysauce wrote:using something completely tangential, like entropic strike, which has nothing to do with instant death,
and completely contradictory to the official FAQ is cheating, no amount of fancy talk gets around that
the force weapon inflicts instant death
the FAQ says
Q: Can Feel No Pain rolls be made against unsaved Wounds
inflicted by weapons that have the Instant Death special rule? (p35)
A: No.
thats as clear as it gets, if you take FNP rolls on unsaved wounds caused by weapons that cause instant death, you are cheating
and calling a cheat a cheat is not a personal attack.. its just a fact
Can you show me a Force Weapon that has the ID rule on it ? y es it says right in the main rule book, when activated (wich is immediate after causing an unsaved wound) the force weapon has the instant death special rule
pg 37.
"force
if a psyker inflicts one or more unsaved wounds with a force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a warp charge point and taking a psychic test (see pg 67). if the test is failed or the beare has no warp charge to spend there is no additional effect. If the test is passed, all unsaved wounds inflicted by the force weapon that turn have the instant death special rule (see pg 38)"
So now your saying it has the Force rule and not the ID rule ?
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Post by: easysauce
so when does the check occur, immediately after an unsaved wound is cause, and assuming it passes, it confers the instant death rule on those unsaved wounds, and FNP cannot be taken against unsaved wounds with the instant death rule. entropic strike does not cause instant death, so it can be FNP'ed, it is completely unrelated Automatically Appended Next Post: Fragile wrote:
So now your saying it has the Force rule and not the ID rule ?
no, it has both, assuming you pass the psychic test, as clearly stated in the rules, Automatically Appended Next Post: how "unsaved wounds inflicted by the force weapon that turn have the instant death rule" pg 38 can be interpreted as anything other then unsaved wounds inflicting instant death takes a special kind of "logic"
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Post by: Fragile
It does NOT have both. Those weapons have the FORCE rule. The wounds by the weapons DO NOT cause ID. The Psyker can take his test on unsaved wounds to have it cause ID, but the original wound does not have the ID rule to it. Therefore FNP can be used on that original wound. IF FNP is successful the wound is treated as saved. The Psyker cannot activate his FORCE rule against a saved wound.
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Post by: rigeld2
easysauce wrote:so when does the check occur, immediately after an unsaved wound is cause, and assuming it passes, it confers the instant death rule on those unsaved wounds, and FNP cannot be taken against unsaved wounds with the instant death rule. entropic strike does not cause instant death, so it can be FNP'ed, it is completely unrelated
rigeld2 wrote:easysauce wrote:the entropic strike issue is separate from this, it is not proof that you get to break the rules as intended, and the rules as written, and the FAQ as written
It's not a separate issue. If you take your logic and apply it in a situation without ID, rules are broken.
entropic strike does not cause instant death, thats why you can FNP it, that is the key difference
Zoom. That was the point flying right over your head.
Unsaved Wound = UW
According to you:
UW caused. Special rule triggers off of UW. Rule is applied. FNP roll made, wound treated as saved. How can you treat a wound as saved if you also applied the UW trigger?
See how I removed the ability from the equation to attempt to explain it to you? Do you agree that this is the sequence of events you're proposing?
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Post by: easysauce
immediately means immediately, not after FNP rolls, so the ID rule is applied to those wounds immediately, not after FNP
of course if that logic is put to a situation without ID its different... because ID means it ignores FNP, and no ID means you can make a FNP roll... entropic strike means no ID so go make a FNP roll... activated force weapon means ID applies, so no FNP roll
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Post by: jdjamesdean@mail.com
easysauce wrote:immediately means immediately, not after FNP rolls, so the ID rule is applied to those wounds immediately, not after FNP of course if that logic is put to a situation without ID its different... because ID means it ignores FNP, and no ID means you can make a FNP roll... entropic strike means no ID so go make a FNP roll... activated force weapon means ID applies, so no FNP roll If that's how you'd like to play it, than by all means. I'll be playing it the "right" way. seriously though, just messin. IMO it's up for grabs.
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Post by: rigeld2
easysauce wrote:immediately means immediately, not after FNP rolls, so the ID rule is applied to those wounds immediately, not after FNP
of course if that logic is put to a situation without ID its different... because ID means it ignores FNP, and no ID means you can make a FNP roll... entropic strike means no ID so go make a FNP roll... activated force weapon means ID applies, so no FNP roll
And if you resolve and apply ES, and then pass your FNP roll you're applying one rule that can only ever apply on an unsaved wound and another rule that says to treat the wound as saved.
Do you not see that as incorrect?
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Post by: easysauce
so you are saying unsaved wounds inflicted by a force weapon do not cause instant death then?
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Post by: rigeld2
easysauce wrote:so you are saying unsaved wounds inflicted by a force weapon do not cause instant death then?
Not until after Force is activated.
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Post by: easysauce
despite the rule book saying otherwise? why have a rule book at all then... lets just make up the rules to benefit us the most
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Post by: jdjamesdean@mail.com
easysauce wrote:despite the rule book saying otherwise? why have a rule book at all then... lets just make up the rules to benefit us the most
While we're at it, lets be rude and disrespectful.
Call cheaters to the left, and cheaters to the right.
How about Nid Boneswords?
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Post by: lucasbuffalo
This one really is sticky. Even after reading through both sides' interpretations it's tricky. If I HAD to pick, I'd say FNP should be taken, but that'd be a "decision" not an "interpretation" as I don't think I have a clear one.
Chiming in as a neutral here.
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Post by: easysauce
Just because entropic strike may be broken, does not mean instant death vs fnp is... again a completely different rule, that is also a grey area, is not proof of another rules validity or invalidity.
They are two separate rules,
and the RAI and RAW say you do the test to make unsaved wounds caused by force weapons cause instant death immediately, not after feel no pain, immediately, the definition of that word means before anything else. feel no pain has does not say immediately, it just says to apply it to unsaved wounds, of the non instant death variety. Maybe if feel no pain also said to make the roll immediately after the unsaved wound it would at least be tied in position to be rolled for, but it does not.
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Post by: Backlash
Boneswords. Unsaved wound is taken. You test immediately against your leadership. If the test is passed you take FNP as normal as the wound did not cause ID and FNP is not disallowed . If you fail the model suffers ID and FNP is disallowed due to the ID effect. This is how my local gaming group has played it to allow full advantage for both sides to use their abilities.
A similar concept can be applied to to force weapons. replacing the opposing leadership test with the test to activate said force weapon. Both abilities are worded similarly stating immediatley take the test, be it an opposing test or a psychic test.
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Post by: insaniak
easysauce wrote:immediately means immediately, not after FNP rolls, so the ID rule is applied to those wounds immediately, not after FNP
No, immediately means, in this context, immediately after you have established that there was an unsaved wound.
If the target has FNP, you haven't established that an unsaved wound occured until after you have made FNP rolls.
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Post by: easysauce
insaniak wrote:easysauce wrote:immediately means immediately, not after FNP rolls, so the ID rule is applied to those wounds immediately, not after FNP
No, immediately means, in this context, immediately after you have established that there was an unsaved wound.
If the target has FNP, you haven't established that an unsaved wound occured until after you have made FNP rolls.
except you cannot use FNP until you have established that the model suffered an unsaved wound..."when a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved wound, it can make a special Feel no Pain roll" pg 35
both the FNP and force weapon instant death are triggered by the model taking an unsaved wound, however only the force rule says it is applied immediately
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Post by: DeathReaper
easysauce wrote:except you cannot use FNP until you have established that the model suffered an unsaved wound..."when a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved wound, it can make a special Feel no Pain roll" pg 35 both the FNP and force weapon instant death are triggered by the model taking an unsaved wound, however only the force rule says it is applied immediately
Except you do not know if you actually have an unsaved wound until you figure out if FNP treats the wound as saved. That and you have to roll FNP first or you break things like the Hexrifle and Entropic Strike. Also, when do they get to roll for FNP? "when a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved wound" so this will happen the instant a model with the FNP special rule suffers an unsaved wound.
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Post by: easysauce
DeathReaper wrote:easysauce wrote:except you cannot use FNP until you have established that the model suffered an unsaved wound..."when a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved wound, it can make a special Feel no Pain roll" pg 35
both the FNP and force weapon instant death are triggered by the model taking an unsaved wound, however only the force rule says it is applied immediately
Except you do not know if you actually have an unsaved wound until you figure out if FNP treats the wound as saved.
That and you have to roll FNP first or you break things like the Hexrifle and Entropic Strike.
Also, when do they get to roll for FNP? "when a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved wound" so this will happen the instant a model with the FNP special rule suffers an unsaved wound.
so if you dont know a model has an unsaved wound until it rolls fnp, but you cannot even roll for FNP unless it has an unsaved wound, but you dont know it has an unsaved wound until you roll FNP, but you cannot make a FNP roll unless you suffer an unsaved wound, but then you dont know if it even has an unsaved wound until it makes a FNP roll, but you cannot even make that FNP roll until you suffer an unsaved wound... ect ect
it says to " treat the unsaved wound" pg 35as having been saved, it does not say unsaved wounds that occurred before the rule are no longer unsaved wounds for all other rules purposes, and it specifically refers to the wound you felt no pain on as being of the unsaved variety
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Post by: Ub3rb3n
DeathReaper wrote:Ub3rb3n wrote:Agreed with rigled however if one wound goes through and the force weapons get activated then I would say no fnp after that point, for that round of combat at least
Except that can not happen.
As Rig pointed out If you allow activation before FNP there are several other rules broken and
rigeld2 wrote:This exact interpretation breaks rules when applying it to other "unsaved wound" mechanics like Entropic Strike and therefore cannot be correct.
Sorry I may have just not been clear ill give an example
Plague marines and typhus in combat with a gkss, the gkss put 2 wounds at int 6 with their halbreds one fails its fnp roll so as per brotherhood of psykers they activate their force weapons, any wounds from them on with say swords or hammer none of the rest of the plague or typhus get their fnp roll
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Post by: insaniak
easysauce wrote:except you cannot use FNP until you have established that the model suffered an unsaved wound..."when a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved wound, it can make a special Feel no Pain roll" pg 35
Right. And the point of FNP is that it may or may not result in that unsaved wound not actually applying.
Finish one process at a time.
- The model suffers a wound.
- resolve whether or not that wound is saved
- resolve anything that results from the save or lack thereof.
FNP fits into the second process, because it's still a part of determining whether or not that wound is saved. The Force Weapon comes afterwards, when you know for sure that there is a wound that has not been saved.
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Post by: easysauce
except FNP says it can only be used on an unsaved wound,
the rule, the one in the book, says "when a model suffers an unsaved wound, it can make a special feel no pain roll" pg 35 so by definition, if you are making a FNP roll, your model has "suffered an unsaved wound"pg35 that is 100% RAW
the model cannot make the FNP roll till it suffers an unsaved wound, it says right there in the BRB,
the model has to "suffer an unsaved wound" to make its FNP roll, how can the model make FNP without also "suffering an unsaved wound" pg 35
you are saying you cannot determine if the model has suffered an unsaved wound, but that is the whole trigger for FNP rolls (and the force rule is immediately applied when the unsaved wound is inflicted, not suffered)
something that is not a save, does not determine if a wound has been saved,
model is hit
model is wounded
model fails a save, immediately a test is made to see if ID is applied to that wound
unsaved wounds, without the ID rule, get to make a FNP roll
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Post by: Ub3rb3n
Did you just say it says immediately for fnp and force weapons!!!
Sounds like a rule conflict to me which means whoevers player turn it is gets to decide if the force weapon gets activated (but in actuality it shouldn't) or if fnp gets to be taken first, 100% raw
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Post by: easysauce
not to mention the force rule, says "when a pysker inflicts one or more unsaved wounds with a force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it"pg37 wchich applies ID to the wound
the psyker inflicts the unsaved wound before the opposing model suffers the unsaved wound, feel no pain happens after an unsaved wound, by its own rule "when a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved wound [that does not cause ID], it can make a special feel no pain roll" pg 35
the BRB says the force rule gets worked out immediately for unsaved wounds, whereas FNP just gets worked out on unsaved wounds without ID,
when one rule says its worked out immediately, and the other has no such time connotations, then the more specific rule would take precedence, just like stuff that is stated as happening immediately, or at the beginning of a phase, goes before things that just happen in that phase Automatically Appended Next Post: Ub3rb3n wrote:Did you just say it says immediately for fnp and force weapons!!!
Sounds like a rule conflict to me which means whoevers player turn it is gets to decide if the force weapon gets activated (but in actuality it shouldn't) or if fnp gets to be taken first, 100% raw
it only says immediately for force weapon, not for FNP
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Post by: insaniak
Of course it does. There wouldn't be much pint using it on any other type of wound.
The point is, until FNP is resolved, you haven't finished resolving that save. Yes, they both kick in for an unsaved wound... but one of them is still affecting that save process, while the other is a completely new event that happens immediately after you have finished the save process.
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Post by: easysauce
insaniak wrote:
Of course it does. There wouldn't be much pint using it on any other type of wound.
The point is, until FNP is resolved, you haven't finished resolving that save. Yes, they both kick in for an unsaved wound... but one of them is still affecting that save process, while the other is a completely new event that happens immediately after you have finished the save process.
FNP is not a save, there for not influencing the save process RAW specifically says "this is not a saving throw" pg 35 and that you "roll a d6 each time an unsaved wound is suffered" pg 35 so by definition, it is
A:not a save, so not part of the save process
B: happens after the unsaved wound is determined to be an unsaved wound
you cannot say the wound is determined to be unsaved, for the purposes of triggering FNP, but not unsaved for the purpose of an immediate force ID application, just the use of the word immediate with the force rule, and the lack of it for FNP puts the force modifier before the FNP one,
your definition would allow FNP rolls on all unsaved wounds, even though causing instant death, since even a str 10 unsaved wound on a t4 model, by your definition, has not suffered an unsaved wound till after its FNP roll
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Post by: insaniak
easysauce wrote:FNP is not a save, there for not influencing the save process RAW specifically says "this is not a saving throw" pg 35 and that you "roll a d6 each time an unsaved wound is suffered" pg 35 so by definition, it is
A:not a save, so not part of the save process
Except that if it is successful, the end result is treated as a saved wound.
You're absolutely right in that FNP is not a save... but it is still a part of the save process, because it affects the final outcome of your save resolution.
you cannot say the wound is determined to be unsaved, for the purposes of triggering FNP, but not unsaved for the purpose of an immediate force ID application,
Sure you can.
If I have to go swimming immediately after I finish eating, and I eat a carrot, and then eat an apple, I don't go swimming until after the apple, even though in the strictest sense I did finish eating (if only temporarily) when I finished the carrot ... the eating process is not yet complete at that point though.
The same thing is happening here. Because FNP affects the final outcome of the save, you haven't finished resolving the saving throw until you have resolved FNP, even though you had established that there was an unsaved wound at an earlier step. Yes, you have an unsaved wound. You also have an unsaved wound before you roll the save... but the saving process is not yet complete, so anything that happens immediately after discovering that you have an unsaved wund can't yet happen... You have to finish what you're doing before moving on to the next step.
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Post by: DeathReaper
easysauce wrote:you cannot say the wound is determined to be unsaved, for the purposes of triggering FNP, but not unsaved for the purpose of an immediate force ID application, just the use of the word immediate with the force rule, and the lack of it for FNP puts the force modifier before the FNP one
You have to say that, because if you pass your FNP roll you treat the wound as saved, and nothing can trigger off of a saved wound. FNP does not need immediately in its rule because: When do they get to roll for FNP? "when a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved wound" so this will happen the instant a model with the FNP special rule suffers an unsaved wound.
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Post by: easysauce
if that were the case, the RAW would say "after a model has failed a saving throw, but before it suffers an unsaved wound, make a FNP roll"
you cannot use cyclical logic to get around the fact the RAW say the force rule is applied immediately after an unsaved wound (there is no rule in the book about FNP being part of the save process, or that it is needed to determine weather an unsaved wound triggers other special rules)
the the force rule is used for determining ID, immediately after the unsaved wound, and ID makes the unsaved wound ineligible for FNP, the use of the word immediately in force, and the lack of it in FNP means RAW say force is applied immediately, and the model does not have to suffer an unsaved wound for force, the attack merely has to inflict one, which also comes before
even barring inflicted unsaved wounds coming before suffered unsaved wounds,
all that the fact that they say force is applied immediately, as opposed to FNP having no such time connotation, would mean only one is immediate and the other is NOT,
if two rules state they occur at deployment, but one says it occurs immediately at deployment, while the other says it just occurs at deployment, which one comes first then? the immediate one of course, thats what the word means...
im·me·di·ate·ly
[ih-mee-dee-it-lee] Show IPA
adverb
1.
without lapse of time; without delay; instantly; at once: Please telephone him immediately.
2.
with no object or space intervening.
3.
closely: immediately in the vicinity.
4.
without intervening medium or agent; concerning or affecting directly.
all this talk about FNP being part of the saving process, despite RAW saying it is not a save, is conjecture, and only possibly RAI not RAW
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Post by: yakface
There is, of course, a third possibility as well:
Since both effects trigger off of the same thing (when an unsaved wound has been caused) that means per pg 9 of the rulebook, the player whose turn it is chooses which is resolved first.
With that, carry on...
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Post by: DeathReaper
easysauce wrote: im·me·di·ate·ly [ ih-mee-dee-it-lee] Show IPA adverb 1. without lapse of time; without delay; instantly; at once: Please telephone him immediately. 2. with no object or space intervening. 3. closely: immediately in the vicinity. 4. without intervening medium or agent; concerning or affecting directly. Lorek wrote:6. Dictionary definitions of words are not always a reliable source of information for rules debates, as words in the general English language have broader meanings than those in the rules. This is further compounded by the fact that certain English words have different meanings or connotations in Great Britain (where the rules were written) and in the United States. Unless a poster is using a word incorrectly in a very obvious manner, leave dictionary definitions out. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/253892.page Also the instant a model with the FNP special rule suffers an unsaved wound it gets to make a FNP roll. So FNP is instantly as well, plus we need to know if the wound counts as saved or not, so FNP must be done first or thinks like Hexrifle and Entropic Strike Break.
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Post by: easysauce
except GW did not write immediately in the FNP rules, and did not say you do not get FNP when the wounds inflicted entropic strike or hex rifle effects... and does not say it is part of determining if the wound is unsaved, since you cannot even have a FNP roll without an unsaved wound
they did say the force rule is immediate, they did say the FNP rule does not apply to ID wounds,
FNP does not say immediate, force does, you are assuming the RAI meant to say FNP is immediate, but RAW say force is immediate, not FNP
everything used to justify getting around the ID rule in force for FNP relies on things GW did not say, and did not faq,
everything I have posted relating to FNP being vetoed by the immediate application of ID from force was actually written in the rule book and faq
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Post by: DeathReaper
They did not have to, as you get your FNP roll when?
"when a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved wound"
Well as soon as a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved wound he gets his FNP roll, so the language of immediately would be redundant.
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Post by: Mannahnin
For FNP to do anything at all, it must be resolved before we know whether a given wound will be treated as unsaved or not.
Since other rules cannot trigger until we know whether the wound will be treated as unsaved or not, to my read FNP has to go first.
The specific examples of Entropic Strike and the Hexrifle make the point particularly clear. If we want those rules to function, FNP has to be resolved first. If not, we get broken paradoxes. If FNP has to be resolved first before we apply those two rules, then for consistency's case it certainly SHOULD be applied before other effects which are also triggered by an unsaved wound.
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Post by: puma713
Wow, so in adding more rules to the game they didn't manage to clear this up yet? The FNP vs. Hexrifle thread from 2011 rears its ugly head again!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
yakface wrote:
There is, of course, a third possibility as well:
Since both effects trigger off of the same thing (when an unsaved wound has been caused) that means per pg 9 of the rulebook, the player whose turn it is chooses which is resolved first.
With that, carry on...
I'm with Yak on this one. Two events trigger off of exactly the same thing at exactly the same time. Page 9 tells you that the player whose turn it is decides which goes off first.
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Post by: Nem
In my opinion 'Immediatly' is written for a reason and gives the ability a higher priority when triggering at the same time as other abilities.
FNP, and Force/ Boneswords are triggered at the same time.
If 2 are listed as 'Immediatly' then your stuck, and can roll it out.
Edit: Based on RAW, RAI is anyones guess.
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Post by: sudojoe
Locally we're just going by what we assume to be the spirit of the thing by you get to FnP only if the guy didn't activate the force weapon. We treat force weapons as going first due to immediately wording but that's just we decided, well until they FAQ it lol
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Post by: copper.talos
What's all the fuss about FNP and Entropic Strike? Has there been a FAQ that I am not aware of?
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Post by: Snappenthetwig
You roll for Force weapon Instant Death before Feel no Pain. Because until the unsaved wound is resolved completely you can't roll for FNP. Force weapon Instant Death is still part of the save/wound step there for it resolves before FNP satisfied?
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Post by: rigeld2
And again, with that order of events you break rules with non-ID abilities. Be consistent and don't break rules.
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Post by: Snappenthetwig
That's how its done not my fault GW is slow about fixing there errors. This should have been FAQ since the release of 6th edition.
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Post by: copper.talos
Rigeld2 why don't you explain which and how non-ID rules are broken when FNP is used like Snappenthetwig suggests.
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Post by: jdjamesdean@mail.com
copper.talos wrote:Rigeld2 why don't you explain which and how non- ID rules are broken when FNP is used like Snappenthetwig suggests.
He has several times in this thread.
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Post by: copper.talos
Actually he hasn't. If I am mistaked please point out all these several times.
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Post by: easysauce
no he has NOT explained why ES would ever be a type of wound ignored by FNP...
FNP is used to discount wounds, that are then, and only then, treated as saved
there is no specific rule saying wounds with the entropic strike special rule maye not have FNP applied,
there is a rule saying wounds with ID may not be FNP
the argue ment "well how do we know if its an unsaved wound or not" is moot since you can
A  nly make FNP on unsaved wounds
B:they type of wound it is comes first
the arguement about ES is also moot, since ES wounds do not circumvent FNP,
I could just as easily claim that doing it your way makes the FNP on perils "broken"
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Post by: jdjamesdean@mail.com
easysauce wrote:no he has NOT explained why ES would ever be a type of wound ignored by FNP... FNP is used to discount wounds, that are then, and only then, treated as saved there is no specific rule saying wounds with the entropic strike special rule maye not have FNP applied, there is a rule saying wounds with ID may not be FNP the argue ment "well how do we know if its an unsaved wound or not" is moot since you can A  nly make FNP on unsaved wounds B:they type of wound it is comes first the arguement about ES is also moot, since ES wounds do not circumvent FNP, I could just as easily claim that doing it your way makes the FNP on perils "broken" The argument is not moot, as it follows the same exact rules. Yet if you apply your logic to it breaks down the game. You're saying before you roll FNP apply the unsaved wound, if it's a 1 wound model than A; the model is dead B; ES will trigger. We know this is wrong because FNP says to treat the wound as saved. Which would mean A; Model is alive B; ES does not trigger C; hard to activate FW's off of a wound that never happened. It must have been another thread, these things come up at least once every two weeks.
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Post by: copper.talos
There are pages and pages in this forum with the FNP timing issue. Do a search. There is no FAQ, ruling or precedent for or against either side. So don't say "We know this is wrong" because we don't. It's up to the gaming club or TO to provide a ruling on this.
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Post by: Nem
'Unsaved' applies before FNP, FNP is not a save. FNP is activated by 'Unsaved' wounds, Your mixing your perception of 'Unsaved' wounds with 40K meaning of 'Unsaved' wounds.
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Post by: DeathReaper
copper.talos wrote:Rigeld2 why don't you explain which and how non- ID rules are broken when FNP is used like Snappenthetwig suggests.
here is why:
Lets say two models are fighting, one has Entropic Strike, the other has FNP.
The model with ES hits and wounds, the armor save is failed.
Now 2 things happen:
1) FNP is triggered and needs to be resolved.
2) ES is triggered and needs to be resolved.
Lets assume both rolls for ES and FNP are a 6.
If ES goes first, we have broken the FNP rule because you removed a models armor save when the wound is considered saved.
If FNP goes first, nothing else needs to be done.
One interpretation breaks the rules, one does not.
Play with the method that does not break any rules. (As we are not allowed to break rules).
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Post by: Nem
DeathReaper wrote:copper.talos wrote:Rigeld2 why don't you explain which and how non- ID rules are broken when FNP is used like Snappenthetwig suggests.
here is why:
Lets say two models are fighting, one has Entropic Strike, the other has FNP.
The model with ES hits and wounds, the armor save is failed.
Now 2 things happen:
1) FNP is triggered and needs to be resolved.
2) ES is triggered and needs to be resolved.
Lets assume both rolls for ES and FNP are a 6.
If ES goes first, we have broken the FNP rule because you removed a models armor save when the wound is considered saved.
If FNP goes first, nothing else needs to be done.
One interpretation breaks the rules, one does not.
Play with the method that does not break any rules. (As we are not allowed to break rules).
You do not remove a models armor save, becuase FNP is not a save. The would is then treated as saved after FNP, not considered a save.
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Post by: DeathReaper
Therefore FNP must go first otherwise you have broken rules.
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Post by: Nem
Think we will have to agree to disagree =) hope it gets FAQ'd though
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Post by: DeathReaper
Where do you see the flaw in the logic of my post that starts with:
here is why:
Lets say two models are fighting, one has Entropic Strike, the other has FNP.
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Post by: easysauce
DeathReaper wrote:copper.talos wrote:Rigeld2 why don't you explain which and how non- ID rules are broken when FNP is used like Snappenthetwig suggests.
here is why:
Lets say two models are fighting, one has Entropic Strike, the other has FNP.
The model with ES hits and wounds, the armor save is failed.
Now 2 things happen:
1) FNP is triggered and needs to be resolved.
2) ES is triggered and needs to be resolved.
Lets assume both rolls for ES and FNP are a 6.
If ES goes first, we have broken the FNP rule because you removed a models armor save when the wound is considered saved.
If FNP goes first, nothing else needs to be done.
One interpretation breaks the rules, one does not.
Play with the method that does not break any rules. (As we are not allowed to break rules).
that "logic" weather it is correct or not, only applies to FNP vs ES, making the leap that it goes to ID is still not there
it does not mean FNP goes before ID, and there is no FAQ saying no FNP against ES, there is an FAQ specifically stating no FNP rolls vs ID wounds
your method of using ES to justify breaking the rule of no FNP rolls vs ID is the only rule being broken.
your method also ignores the fact that the force rule specifies it must apply ID immediately after the unsaved wound, where as ES and FNP have no such wording.
as well FNP vs perils is broken by your "logic"
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Post by: Nem
Just how I see it, Treated as saved from FNP applies only after a Sucessful FNP. If ES goes first, it never actually breaks the rules, as its never active during a saved wound fron FNP
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Post by: DeathReaper
Nem wrote:Just how I see it, Treated as saved from FNP applies only after a Sucessful FNP. If ES goes first, it never actually breaks the rules, as its never active during a saved wound fron FNP
But it does as that wound is treated as saved. To take away an armor save is to treat the wound as Unsaved, as that is what ES calls for.
easysauce wrote:that "logic" weather it is correct or not, only applies to FNP vs ES, making the leap that it goes to ID is still not there
it does not mean FNP goes before ID, and there is no FAQ saying no FNP against ES, there is an FAQ specifically stating no FNP rolls vs ID wounds
your method of using ES to justify breaking the rule of no FNP rolls vs ID is the only rule being broken.
as well FNP vs perils is broken by your "logic"
Premise 1) ES and Force weapons have the same timing.
Do we agree on premise 1?
Premise 2) FNP must go off before ES otherwise you break a rule.
Do we agree on Premise 2?
easysauce wrote:your method also ignores the fact that the force rule specifies it must apply ID immediately after the unsaved wound, where as ES and FNP have no such wording.
When do you get to make a FNP roll?
"when a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved wound" so this will happen the instant a model with the FNP special rule suffers an unsaved wound.
"When a model suffers an unsaved wound" means this happens at that exact time, immediately.
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Post by: clively
This is how I see it. 1. Attacker rolls To Hit: success 2. Attacker rolls To Wound: success 3. Defender rolls Armor Save: failed at this point we look at the actual weapon used: Force: 4. Force test rolled: Success - attack gains Instant Death rule. Entropic Strike: 4. ES is triggered and rolled: success. Model's future armor save removed. Back to the regular list: 5. If attack is not AP2 or Instant Death, role FNP. 6. If model has lost last wound, remove. In both cases, the weapons special rule kicks off prior to the FNP roll. With the force weapon, it *may* eliminate the possibility of taking a FNP roll. With ES, the special rule impacts the armor save of which FNP is most definitely not and therefore there is no conflict. Nor are the rules "broken".
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Post by: DeathReaper
clively wrote:Entropic Strike:
5. FNP rolled: success. Model lives, but no longer has an armor save.
Why are you removing an armor save from a model that did not suffer an unsaved wound? (Remember we are to treat the wound as saved if FNP is successful).
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Post by: Nem
Scenario:
ES Rolls first, Successful. Wounds and Smooshed,
^How has that broken the rules
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Post by: DeathReaper
Nem wrote:Scenario:
ES Rolls first, Successful. Wounds and Smooshed,
^How has that broken the rules
Because after a successful FNP we have to treat the unsaved wound as saved.
Why are you removing an armor save off of a saved wound?
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Post by: Nem
DeathReaper wrote:Nem wrote:Scenario:
ES Rolls first, Successful. Wounds and Smooshed,
^How has that broken the rules
Because after a successful FNP we have to treat the unsaved wound as saved.
Why are you removing an armor save off of a saved wound?
FNP was negated though in this scenario, it was never a unsaved wound
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Post by: easysauce
DeathReaper wrote:
Premise 1) ES and Force weapons have the same timing.
Do we agree on premise 1?
Premise 2) FNP must go off before ES otherwise you break a rule.
Do we agree on Premise 2?
no, I agree on neither premise, ES and force do not have the same wording,
force says immediately, ES does not, totally different,
FNP going off after ES breaks no rules, because ES does not negate FNP
FNP going off before foces ID rule DOES break rules since ID negates FNP
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Post by: copper.talos
ES does say immediately...
edit: Last time this came up there was a poll ( http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/469472.page#4663302) It shows that the community here is divided, with the "against FNP" side having a minor advantage. I don't think we are going to solve this today. Lets just agree to disagree and move on.
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Post by: alex567
The rule for force weapons instant death sais "role immediatly after the unsaved wound is suffered", this places it before the FNP role, if passed no FNP role is made because the weapon causes instant death, if failed a FNP role is made.
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Post by: TheSwarmLives
DeathReaper wrote:Nem wrote:Scenario:
ES Rolls first, Successful. Wounds and Smooshed,
^How has that broken the rules
Because after a successful FNP we have to treat the unsaved wound as saved.
Why are you removing an armor save off of a saved wound?
To treat a wound as "Saved" we first have to have a "Unsaved" wound. Once you have have an unsaved wound you have to do everything it causes. I'd think the armor would still be gone.
Normal rules say when a model recieves a wound, reduce the wounds by 1. ( BRB Rules)
FNP Says treat the wound as being saved. ( BRB)
Instant deaths from (Bone Swords For Example Have a Specific Rule (Codex) that also come along with a wound.) Codex > BRB
I think FNP still works it just has no effect on the any specific rules resulting from the wound that ALSO happened.
The model may go back up to 1 wound against ES, but the armor would be gone for example.
Regarless of what comes first all things are happening at the same time and must be played out.
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Post by: whembly
yakface wrote:
There is, of course, a third possibility as well:
Since both effects trigger off of the same thing (when an unsaved wound has been caused) that means per pg 9 of the rulebook, the player whose turn it is chooses which is resolved first.
With that, carry on...
Bingo... this is how we play it at our store... and seems most fair.
Too much arguing otherwise.
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Post by: Snappenthetwig
FNP can not be taken the force rule adds the ID ruling to the wound negating FNP. The wound its self becomes an ID hit therefore FNP saves can not be made.
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Post by: Kevin949
Snappenthetwig wrote:FNP can not be taken the force rule adds the ID ruling to the wound negating FNP. The wound its self becomes an ID hit therefore FNP saves can not be made.
Would that it be so simple.
Both effects happen on "taking an unsaved wound". Your earlier proposal about FNP happening after resolving the wound completely is incorrect. If you resolve the wound then you have taken the wound already and moved on in the wound pool. If that were the case, FNP would have no need to mention "on a 4 or less, you must take the wound as normal". It would instead say "on a 4 or less, you have taken the wound as normal". Plus the rule states that you apply FNP as soon as the unsaved wound is suffered, just as with Force weapons.
So with the wording of feel no pain being in the absolute present tense, i.e. you roll before you determine if you have taken the actual wound or not, you should be able to see why you can take FNP on wounds from a force weapon BEFORE the psyker gets a chance to activate it. It's right there in the wording for FNP, and force weapons do not have the ID rule until after they pass their test.
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Post by: barnowl
yakface wrote:
There is, of course, a third possibility as well:
Since both effects trigger off of the same thing (when an unsaved wound has been caused) that means per pg 9 of the rulebook, the player whose turn it is chooses which is resolved first.
With that, carry on...
I am with Yakface on this one, and I don't see it how it breaks ES.
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Post by: Kangodo
Snappenthetwig wrote:FNP can not be taken the force rule adds the ID ruling to the wound negating FNP. The wound its self becomes an ID hit therefore FNP saves can not be made.
the discussion here is because I want to fnp before you make the wound, therefore stopping you from ever using the force that adds ID.
We always do it like this:
hit.
Wound.
Do everything to stop it, including armour, cover, invulnerable and fnp throws.
Use the abilities that trigger on wounds (like force)
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Post by: puma713
DeathReaper wrote:copper.talos wrote:Rigeld2 why don't you explain which and how non- ID rules are broken when FNP is used like Snappenthetwig suggests.
here is why:
Lets say two models are fighting, one has Entropic Strike, the other has FNP.
The model with ES hits and wounds, the armor save is failed.
Now 2 things happen:
1) FNP is triggered and needs to be resolved.
2) ES is triggered and needs to be resolved.
Lets assume both rolls for ES and FNP are a 6.
If ES goes first, we have broken the FNP rule because you removed a models armor save when the wound is considered saved.
If FNP goes first, nothing else needs to be done.
One interpretation breaks the rules, one does not.
Play with the method that does not break any rules. (As we are not allowed to break rules).
Or use page 9 of the rules, which tell you exactly how to resolve the issue.
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Post by: skyfi
I advised our local gaming group to use page 9 to handle this situation until is FAQ'd. Apparently that was not a common sense solution though, and someone called GW to ask them their stance on the issue.
The individual reported back to the group that the gentleman from GW said it was their stance that you check for force weapons BEFORE you make FNP rolls. The group now uses this ruling.
I realize this means squat to most people (myself included) because until published via FAQ/errata game stores probably going to say "see page 9"... so it's quite irrelevant that some yahoo at GW answering their phones told a specific caller their "stance".
In any case, I'll go by the ruling they acquired via phone while playing with them, but if it's a tournament (not at their club) and money is on the line you'd bet I'm going to argue that I get FNP on my turn at least, until GW faq's it. (per pg #9)
Not that this means anything to anyone, but there ya go
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Post by: rabid1903
Just food for thought:
What about a squad of Grey Knights attacking something with FNP and something without?
Halberds hit targets that do not have feel no pain, causing unsaved wounds that trigger the force rule and cause instant death.
Swords then proceed to hit the targets with feel no pain. Those swords are already inflicting instant death so would the FNP models get their roll?
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Post by: jdjamesdean@mail.com
rabid1903 wrote:Just food for thought:
What about a squad of Grey Knights attacking something with FNP and something without?
Halberds hit targets that do not have feel no pain, causing unsaved wounds that trigger the force rule and cause instant death.
Swords then proceed to hit the targets with feel no pain. Those swords are already inflicting instant death so would the FNP models get their roll?
That seems correct in this current debacle.
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Post by: Lungpickle
FUN
Ok so we have narrowed it down to after the successful activation of Force weapons the psykers wounds caused are ID.
It seems theres a question as to which happens first FNP or Force activation since they both trigger off an unsaved wound, and both are done imediately.
Its simple really. 10 wounds from GK, to 10 Plague marines.
First save there is none because of ap3, so imediately roll fnp fail it and remove all 10 if the activation is successful. If the FNP is good then do it again for all 9 wounds remaining till one is failed and activation can be done.
Since FNP success rolls treat the wound as saved then you must allow it until there is failure in order o activate the force side of the weapon and insta gib the rest since on activation treat all wounds from that point on as ID wounds.
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Post by: easysauce
Lungpickle wrote:FUN
Ok so we have narrowed it down to after the successful activation of Force weapons the psykers wounds caused are ID.
It seems theres a question as to which happens first FNP or Force activation since they both trigger off an unsaved wound, and both are done imediately.
Its simple really. 10 wounds from GK, to 10 Plague marines.
First save there is none because of ap3, so imediately roll fnp fail it and remove all 10 if the activation is successful. If the FNP is good then do it again for all 9 wounds remaining till one is failed and activation can be done.
Since FNP success rolls treat the wound as saved then you must allow it until there is failure in order o activate the force side of the weapon and insta gib the rest since on activation treat all wounds from that point on as ID wounds.
exactly, while I dont think this is RAI, it is at least a correct view of RAW,
even in a the case where, despite the fact that the force rule says immediately (using the actually word immediately, not going by present tense assumptions) the rolls for FNP need to be made one at a time, because the first one that fails, no mater what side of this you are on, results in an unsaved wound, and gives the psyker a chance (one they may fail, or kill themselves with, so stop being so worried about it) to activate his weapon and ignore the rest of the FNP rolls.
no rules are broken with this interpretation, rules are most certainly broken if you take all FNP rolls and discount the psykers ID rule despite unsaved wounds being taken from failed FNP rolls
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Post by: rigeld2
easysauce wrote:Lungpickle wrote:FUN
Ok so we have narrowed it down to after the successful activation of Force weapons the psykers wounds caused are ID.
It seems theres a question as to which happens first FNP or Force activation since they both trigger off an unsaved wound, and both are done imediately.
Its simple really. 10 wounds from GK, to 10 Plague marines.
First save there is none because of ap3, so imediately roll fnp fail it and remove all 10 if the activation is successful. If the FNP is good then do it again for all 9 wounds remaining till one is failed and activation can be done.
Since FNP success rolls treat the wound as saved then you must allow it until there is failure in order o activate the force side of the weapon and insta gib the rest since on activation treat all wounds from that point on as ID wounds.
exactly, while I dont think this is RAI, it is at least a correct view of RAW,
even in a the case where, despite the fact that the force rule says immediately (using the actually word immediately, not going by present tense assumptions) the rolls for FNP need to be made one at a time, because the first one that fails, no mater what side of this you are on, results in an unsaved wound, and gives the psyker a chance (one they may fail, or kill themselves with, so stop being so worried about it) to activate his weapon and ignore the rest of the FNP rolls.
no rules are broken with this interpretation, rules are most certainly broken if you take all FNP rolls and discount the psykers ID rule despite unsaved wounds being taken from failed FNP rolls
easysauce wrote: DeathReaper wrote:
Premise 1) ES and Force weapons have the same timing.
Do we agree on premise 1?
Premise 2) FNP must go off before ES otherwise you break a rule.
Do we agree on Premise 2?
no, I agree on neither premise, ES and force do not have the same wording,
force says immediately, ES does not, totally different,
FNP going off after ES breaks no rules, because ES does not negate FNP
FNP going off before foces ID rule DOES break rules since ID negates FNP
This hurts my head. So you've changed your mind and agree that FNP comes before any "unsaved wound" effect?
68355
Post by: easysauce
rigeld2 wrote:
This hurts my head. So you've changed your mind and agree that FNP comes before any "unsaved wound" effect?
no, I am just saying that it is an acceptable interpretation when you ignore the fact that raw says immediately for force, and not for FNP, some people seem to think the actual presence of the word immediately in force is over ruled by the imaginary use of it in FNP, since both rules say "as soon as an unsaved wound is inflicted(for force) / suffered (for FNP)" but only the force rule actually says in the BRB that it is done immediately
i dont know why some people keep insisting a rule that does say immediately is less immediate then a rule that does not,
the same way a roll that is explicitly not a save, and does not treat successful rolls as saved or discarded until after the fact does not change the fact a model suffered an unsaved wound, or you wouldnt be making a FNP roll in the first place, people keep saying "i suffered an unsaved wound, so i get to make a FNP roll, but i actually have not suffered an unsaved wound and you dont get to activate force weapons" like the model is in some Schrodinger's cat state of both suffering an unsaved wound for FNP purposes, but not suffering an unsaved wound for force purposes
when two things happen on an unsaved wound, and one says it happens immediately, where as the other does not, literally speaking the specifically named immediate effect (force) takes place first, and that is the true RAW
47462
Post by: rigeld2
When you suffer an unsaved wound X happens.
Immediately after you suffer an unsaved wound, do X.
Which one happens first?
No one is imagining "immediately" in FNP - stop saying that because it's a lie.
We're saying that FNP must happen first because it would be breaking a rule for it not to.
68355
Post by: easysauce
rigeld2 wrote:When you suffer an unsaved wound X happens.
Immediately after you suffer an unsaved wound, do X.
Which one happens first?
No one is imagining "immediately" in FNP - stop saying that because it's a lie.
We're saying that FNP must happen first because it would be breaking a rule for it not to.
dont attack me personally by calling me a liar,
i am quoting the book word for word, you are not, you are paraphrasing and dropping the word immediately from force, and adding it into the rule for FNP
do you notice which rule says immediately, and which one does not?
"if a psyker inflicts one or more unsaved wounds with a force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it"pg37
"when a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved wound, it can make a special feel no pain roll to avoid being wounded (this is not a saving throw)" pg 35
both abilities trigger off of unsaved wounds, but as the rule book says, force is done immediately,
the only rule being broken, is the rule that FNP cannot be taken against wounds that cause ID, as the BRB and the FAQ explicitly state.
61964
Post by: Fragile
If you suffer an unsaved wound it triggers 2 events. FNP and Force activation.
Since the wound did not have the ID properties when it was unsaved FNP can be used.
Now apply both.
You activate the Force weapon and any unsaved wounds caused by that weapon this turn cause ID.
You also roll for FNP and if you succeed you treat the wound as being saved.
Now apply the results. FNP cause the wound to be treated as saved, thereby cancelling the valid wound required to cause ID.
47462
Post by: rigeld2
easysauce wrote:rigeld2 wrote:When you suffer an unsaved wound X happens.
Immediately after you suffer an unsaved wound, do X.
Which one happens first?
No one is imagining "immediately" in FNP - stop saying that because it's a lie.
We're saying that FNP must happen first because it would be breaking a rule for it not to.
dont attack me personally by calling me a liar,
i am quoting the book word for word, you are not, you are paraphrasing and dropping the word immediately from force, and adding it into the rule for FNP
Citation required. Name one time I've done that or retract it please.
"if a psyker inflicts one or more unsaved wounds with a force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it"pg37
Right, so after the wound is inflicted.
"when a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved wound, it can make a special feel no pain roll to avoid being wounded (this is not a saving throw)"pg 35
Right, so when a wound is inflicted.
So you do one of them when something happens, and one immediately after something happens.
42985
Post by: liturgies of blood
Saying something is a lie isn't the same as calling someone a liar. Look up common law on liable and defamation.
68355
Post by: easysauce
rigeld2 wrote:easysauce wrote:rigeld2 wrote:When you suffer an unsaved wound X happens.
Immediately after you suffer an unsaved wound, do X.
Which one happens first?
No one is imagining "immediately" in FNP - stop saying that because it's a lie.
We're saying that FNP must happen first because it would be breaking a rule for it not to.
dont attack me personally by calling me a liar,
i am quoting the book word for word, you are not, you are paraphrasing and dropping the word immediately from force, and adding it into the rule for FNP
Citation required. Name one time I've done that or retract it please.
"if a psyker inflicts one or more unsaved wounds with a force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it"pg37
Right, so after the wound is inflicted. <---- it does not say after, the tense on wounds is still present tense, just like the word when, the actual inlcusion of the word immediate here trumps the tie in tense in both rules
"when a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved wound, it can make a special feel no pain roll to avoid being wounded (this is not a saving throw)"pg 35
Right, so when a wound is inflicted.
So you do one of them when something happens, and one immediately after something happens.
47462
Post by: rigeld2
easysauce wrote:rigeld2 wrote:dont attack me personally by calling me a liar,
i am quoting the book word for word, you are not, you are paraphrasing and dropping the word immediately from force, and adding it into the rule for FNP
Citation required. Name one time I've done that or retract it please.
So no response - I'll take that as a retraction.
"if a psyker inflicts one or more unsaved wounds with a force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it"pg37
Right, so after the wound is inflicted. <---- it does not say after, the tense on wounds is still present tense, just like the word when, the actual inlcusion of the word immediate here trumps the tie in tense in both rules
It must be after - it cannot be before, and there's no "during" causing an unsaved wound. The present tense has no bearing on before, during, or after.
68271
Post by: alex567
If you read the rules for force it sais "if the test is passed, all unsaved wounds inflicted by the force weapon that turn have the instant death special rule." So say a unit sufferes two wounds from a force weapon, and fails both, they take a feel no pain and pass, they then take another feel no pain save and fail, the psyker takes a test and passes, ALL his attacks that turn now inflict instant death, even those that have already been saved (by feel no pain) thus meaning that a FNP save has been taken against a wound that inflicts instant death.
61964
Post by: Fragile
The wound did not have the ID property at the time FNP was used.
68355
Post by: easysauce
the whole argument for FNP getting around the BRB and FAQ stating you may not take FNP rolls against wounds that cause ID is dependent on the presumption that FNP determines whether a wound is unsaved or not, even though you can not use FNP with out first suffering an unsaved wound... twice in its description FNP refers to the wounds as discarded in literal fact, and simply says they are treated as saved, but only after they were initially unsaved.... it only discards an unsaved wound, it does not prevent the wound from being unsaved in the first place, or it would prevent its own power from going off.
so again, you cannot use FNP to circumvent ID,
to look at if from the other side, it would appear that I think it is ok for ID to circumvent FNP, which both the rule book, and the FAQ both say is 100% correct
the FAQ is very clear on this, using FNP to circumvent ID is breaking the rule as written,
GW knows there are only two sources of ID in the game, 2x toughness and force weapons, and it said in the rule book FNP cannot be taken against unsaved wounds with the ID rule, AND in the FAQ that FNP cannot be taken against weapons that inflict ID
so two sources in the game for ID, and both say no FNP rolls against them, yet people want to make FNP rolls against them anyways...
65926
Post by: Backlash
Does it matter that the ID effect wasn't known? I have read many peoples arguements about breaking rules. Heres a scenario. A wound is inflicted by a force weapon / bonesword / any weapon that requires a test to determine if ID is a factor. Just for kicks lets say you take your FNP roll first. and of course you fail it "never works when you really need it after all" we now take our appropriate test to see if we inflict ID. It passes! At this point a rule has been broken. Because a FNP roll has been taken against a wound that inflicts ID. Doesnt matter that it didnt do anything or that you died. The rule was stlll broken. Tests to determine if ID is a factor need to be taken before FNP is to determine if FNP even applies to prevent this Automatically Appended Next Post: Easy sauce there are plenty of sources of ID in the game. Force and double out dont even scratch the surface,
21002
Post by: megatrons2nd
It does have the instant death rule. It just happens to have a trigger. As the FAQ clearly states that you can not use FNP against a weapon with the Instant death special rule, you can never use FNP against it, even if it is not triggered.
The Special rules section allows for multiple special rules to affect a single model, as in they stack, meaning both rules can be true. You lose your armor, and are not removed as a casualty. You are removed from play, but the wound was not fatal. FNP seems to be an issue because everyone wants to ignore the effects of multiple special rules on a single model/unit. Stated on pg32, under the "A compendium of Special Rules" section third paragraph.
42985
Post by: liturgies of blood
megatrons2nd wrote:It does have the instant death rule. It just happens to have a trigger. As the FAQ clearly states that you can not use FNP against a weapon with the Instant death special rule, you can never use FNP against it, even if it is not triggered.
This is wrong. Force =/= ID. Force can inflict ID but not all the time. If force= ID then you can just boost your combat stats with psychic powers and use force weapons to butcher FnP units. As it doesn't require the check just that it can, sometimes, maybe, get access to the rule.
65926
Post by: Backlash
You can use FNP against weapons that inflict ID as long as they are not activated / your tests are failed. The BR states "unsaved wounds that inflict instant death" if your ability tests are not passed those wounds dont cause ID so FNP can be taken as normal, but that can only be determined after the outcome of the ID ability has been determined.
42985
Post by: liturgies of blood
I have yet to see any evidence for a RAW argument that this is not a case of using the rules on page 9. So I don't follow how FNP must always happen after the force check.
21002
Post by: megatrons2nd
Backlash wrote:You can use FNP against weapons that inflict ID as long as they are not activated / your tests are failed. The BR states "unsaved wounds that inflict instant death" if your ability tests are not passed those wounds dont cause ID so FNP can be taken as normal, but that can only be determined after the outcome of the ID ability has been determined.
The GW FAQ:
"Q: Can Feel No Pain rolls be made against unsaved Wounds
inflicted by weapons that have the Instant Death special rule? (p35)
A: No."
It has the instant death special rule, yes through another rule, but it does have it. As the rule is on the weapon, FNP can not be used. Note that the FAQ does not say activated, after a test, or after a failed save, just that it has the rule.
65926
Post by: Backlash
The method i described above breaks no rules. It does not deny you a FNP roll if one, It simply make see if it can be made. "say the pyschic test is failed in the case of force you can still take your FNP" If FNP is taken first and failed as i said above and ID occurs again you HAVE broken a rule. Because you took a FNP ROLL "not pass, just the attempt breaks the rule" No part of FNP is denied. As an unsaved wound is inflicted before FNP can be activated. By trying to take FNP before checking to determine if ID is caused you try to ignore an undisputeable fact stated in the BRB.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
"If the test is passed, all unsaved wounds inflicted by the force weapon that turn have the instant death rule"
They do not have ID at all times. The wording is different. If you want wording that inflicts ID at all times look at the Swarmlord.
"The bone sabre's attacks inflict instant death regardless of the opponents toughness."
There is a difference. Force weapons only have it when the psychic test is passed. Bone swords only after your opponent fails his Ld test. Bone sabres just happen no test required same as double out. The argument here isnt if it can be taken against the weapon. but what ability takes precedence on order of operations the force aspect or FNP
Automatically Appended Next Post:
So yes you can take FNP against force weapons that havnt been activated.
68416
Post by: BLADERIKER
So it seems I'm not the first one to have this debate. So I'll throw in here and see what happens. I'll start with some citations.
"Feel No pain: When a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved Wound, it may make a special Feel no Pain roll to avoid being wounded (this is not a saving throw).- Note that feel No Pain cannot be made against unsaved Wounds that inflict Instance Death." (Pg 35, Little Rule Book, Top Right)
"Force: If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds with a Force Weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic Test (see Page 67). If the test is failed , or the bearer has no Warp Charge points to spend, then there is no additional effect. If the test is passed, all unsaved Wounds inflicted by the Force weapon that turn have the Instant Death special rule (See page 38). Deny the Witch rolls cannot be taken against Force Weapons." (Pg 37, Little Rule Book, Top Left)
The rules state that "Feel No Pain" is not a saving throw, and is taken after saving throws have been failed however, "Feel no Pain" cannot be taken against an Instant Death attack. A Force Weapon can be activated immediately after a Unsaved Wound is inflicted, thus becoming an Instant Death attack and negating "Feel No Pain", this effect will only happen if the Psyker passes a Psychic test to activate the Force Weapon, Or if a has an item that automatically activates his Psychic power. If the Psyker does not have a Warp Charge then they cannot activate the Force Weapon and "Feel No Pain" is taken as normal.
Any thoughts on this?
66089
Post by: Kangodo
easysauce wrote:
dont attack me personally by calling me a liar,
i am quoting the book word for word, you are not, you are paraphrasing and dropping the word immediately from force, and adding it into the rule for FNP
do you notice which rule says immediately, and which one does not?
But the BRB has no section about the timing of skills and abilities.
The rulebook doesn't say anything about what immediately means.
If you are claiming that immediately means it should be rolled before anything, than I could argue that I will only remove my model from the game in about two turns since ID nowhere says I have to do it immediately.
See the issue with that?
Because of the flow of the game we have to assume that everything is done immediately, therefore the word has no meaning in here.
Besides: Why would you allow Armoursaves before using Force, but you won't allow FNP before the Force?
Or how about Life Leech?
That immediately gives you one wound for each unsaved wound it does.
So you are saying that FNP is able to stop the wound from Life Leech but will still give the caster of LL the wounds back?
That'd be a paradox and to avoid that paradox we first have to throw FNP and than use the Life Leech effect.
68355
Post by: easysauce
Kangodo wrote:easysauce wrote:
dont attack me personally by calling me a liar,
i am quoting the book word for word, you are not, you are paraphrasing and dropping the word immediately from force, and adding it into the rule for FNP
do you notice which rule says immediately, and which one does not?
But the BRB has no section about the timing of skills and abilities.
The rulebook doesn't say anything about what immediately means.
If you are claiming that immediately means it should be rolled before anything, than I could argue that I will only remove my model from the game in about two turns since ID nowhere says I have to do it immediately.
See the issue with that?
Because of the flow of the game we have to assume that everything is done immediately, therefore the word has no meaning in here.
Besides: Why would you allow Armoursaves before using Force, but you won't allow FNP before the Force?
Or how about Life Leech?
That immediately gives you one wound for each unsaved wound it does.
So you are saying that FNP is able to stop the wound from Life Leech but will still give the caster of LL the wounds back?
That'd be a paradox and to avoid that paradox we first have to throw FNP and than use the Life Leech effect.
the BRB says FNP cannot be taken against unsaved wounds that cause ID, the FAQ says FNP cannot be taken against weapons that cause ID... I said nothing about LL and it is irrelevant to the issue since LL does not have both a BRB and FAQ rule saying you do not get a FNP roll against it.
the real paradox is caused by people ignoring the two specific rules that gw put in print about no FNP rolls on ID from both unsaved wounds and weapons causing ID
34666
Post by: jdjamesdean@mail.com
easysauce wrote:Kangodo wrote:easysauce wrote:
dont attack me personally by calling me a liar,
i am quoting the book word for word, you are not, you are paraphrasing and dropping the word immediately from force, and adding it into the rule for FNP
do you notice which rule says immediately, and which one does not?
But the BRB has no section about the timing of skills and abilities.
The rulebook doesn't say anything about what immediately means.
If you are claiming that immediately means it should be rolled before anything, than I could argue that I will only remove my model from the game in about two turns since ID nowhere says I have to do it immediately.
See the issue with that?
Because of the flow of the game we have to assume that everything is done immediately, therefore the word has no meaning in here.
Besides: Why would you allow Armoursaves before using Force, but you won't allow FNP before the Force?
Or how about Life Leech?
That immediately gives you one wound for each unsaved wound it does.
So you are saying that FNP is able to stop the wound from Life Leech but will still give the caster of LL the wounds back?
That'd be a paradox and to avoid that paradox we first have to throw FNP and than use the Life Leech effect.
the BRB says FNP cannot be taken against unsaved wounds that cause ID, the FAQ says FNP cannot be taken against weapons that cause ID... I said nothing about LL and it is irrelevant to the issue since LL does not have both a BRB and FAQ rule saying you do not get a FNP roll against it.
the real paradox is caused by people ignoring the two specific rules that gw put in print about no FNP rolls on ID from both unsaved wounds and weapons causing ID
Do force weapons cause ID?
Sometimes.
If we use your method with different things IE; Entropic Strike; Life Leech it fails miserably. That's how we know it's wrong. I don't see a FAQ about can I take FNP to weapons that sometimes cause ID.
66089
Post by: Kangodo
easysauce wrote:the BRB says FNP cannot be taken against unsaved wounds that cause ID, the FAQ says FNP cannot be taken against weapons that cause ID... I said nothing about LL and it is irrelevant to the issue since LL does not have both a BRB and FAQ rule saying you do not get a FNP roll against it.
the real paradox is caused by people ignoring the two specific rules that gw put in print about no FNP rolls on ID from both unsaved wounds and weapons causing ID
But a not-yet-activated Force Weapon DOES NOT cause ID, so there is nothing in the BRB/ FAQ that stops you from using FNP against it to prevent it from ever being activated.
Life Leech is actually very relevant in this discussion because it has the same word "immediately" (which you keep hammering on) but would create a paradox if FNP'ed áfter using the effect.
If you claim that you cannot use FNP to stop the Force-activation, you are also saying that I can FNP against Life Leech while still getting the life. Which makes no sense at all.
68289
Post by: Nem
If you want to take it from a different angle you could argue you have not Suffered the wound until the weapon ability is complete, Force test is activated when the wound is allocated, and saves are failed not when suffered, ''Suffering'' a unsaved wound is needed to activate FNP..
I believed there was significance in the difference of Allocating, and Suffering wounds, but not sure.
47462
Post by: rigeld2
easysauce wrote:the BRB says FNP cannot be taken against unsaved wounds that cause ID, the FAQ says FNP cannot be taken against weapons that cause ID... I said nothing about LL and it is irrelevant to the issue since LL does not have both a BRB and FAQ rule saying you do not get a FNP roll against it.
the real paradox is caused by people ignoring the two specific rules that gw put in print about no FNP rolls on ID from both unsaved wounds and weapons causing ID
It's not irrelevant to the issue so please stop saying that it is.
Your interpretation works with some of the "unsaved wound" abilities. When applied to all of them rules are broken meaning that at least in those cases your interpretation cannot be correct.
Since we have an interpretation that never breaks rules regardless of which "unsaved wound" ability is put in the equation that can be the only correct way.
68289
Post by: Nem
rigeld2 wrote:easysauce wrote:the BRB says FNP cannot be taken against unsaved wounds that cause ID, the FAQ says FNP cannot be taken against weapons that cause ID... I said nothing about LL and it is irrelevant to the issue since LL does not have both a BRB and FAQ rule saying you do not get a FNP roll against it.
the real paradox is caused by people ignoring the two specific rules that gw put in print about no FNP rolls on ID from both unsaved wounds and weapons causing ID
It's not irrelevant to the issue so please stop saying that it is.
Your interpretation works with some of the "unsaved wound" abilities. When applied to all of them rules are broken meaning that at least in those cases your interpretation cannot be correct.
Since we have an interpretation that never breaks rules regardless of which "unsaved wound" ability is put in the equation that can be the only correct way.
ID doesnt apply until after Force is resolved in the same way the wound is not Saved until after FNP is resolved, you can't pick and chose which breaks the rules. Either both do or both do not.EDIT:
Either you :
1) Apply FW (and such) Special Rules first, which you then argue breaks the rules becuase IF FNP is applied after you were actually applying it to a 'saved' wound
or
1) Apply FNP first and cause the wound to be treated as Saved, which I then argue breaks the rules becuase IF ID is applied after you were actually applying it to a ID wound.
Both are the same, the cause of ID doesnt apply until roll, is the same as the wound is not treated as saved until after FNP roll.
The Scenario is incorrect, when used for FW
Edit #2: How I edit the scenario in question, But replacing for ID:
Lets say two models are fighting, one has FW (or equivilent), the other has FNP.
The model with FW hits and wounds, the armor save is failed.
Now 2 things happen:
1) FNP is triggered and needs to be resolved.
2) FW is triggered and needs to be resolved.
Lets assume both rolls for FW and FNP are a 6.
If FW goes first, we have broken the FNP rule because you Applied ID when the wound is considered saved.
If FNP goes first, we have broken the FNP rule because you used FNP when the wound is considered ID
Both interpretation break the rules
All of this considered, I put little credibility to the scenario as a whole. The premise is based on rolling off 2 abilities at one time, which is just now how 40K works. We could break lots of rules when applying to this scenario type. The order of things simple is you choose to do one or the other, One will nullify the second, and in reality niether are broken.
This leaves you with only 'Immediatly' being a factor. One RAW states immediatly, the other your assuming its urgency.
I would however be happy to roll on it if it came up.
60145
Post by: Lungpickle
FNP before force activation is the right way. When and if it ever gets faq'd we will see the true intention of FNP and force interactions. It will side with FNP.
Its not a save because if it was a save the rules themselves would be broken since we are allowed only one saving throw per wound, sans rerolls. It however is still part of the save process as demonstrated by the wourding of FNP. Saves and FNP per wound are actions done in conjunction with each other not apart from each other. Its not classified as a save because it would break the 1 save per wound rule. It however does treat FNP success roles as being saved and must be taken before anything can happen off an unsaved wound.
Easysauce, though your impassioned pleading is admirable, its not going to change anything in the game or here for that matter. This is a game, written by brits, who dole out FAQ's on a whim. Trying to convince anyone here your right is is is, well pointless. Since Dakka Dakka do not make the rules either. We have seen your argument and Im guessing that most here if there was a poll would go the other way.
My advice to you If you play grey knights is to roll it off with your opponent before each game so theres a clear understanding of whats happening in that one game.
68289
Post by: Nem
Lungpickle wrote:
Its not a save because if it was a save the rules themselves would be broken since we are allowed only one saving throw per wound, sans rerolls. It however is still part of the save process as demonstrated by the wourding of FNP. Saves and FNP per wound are actions done in conjunction with each other not apart from each other. .
That is incorrect, FNP is a special ability, not a save, it is not related to Saves, the only relation is has to a save, is If it is successful you 'Treat the wound as saved'. They are not done in conjunction either, the ability is activated after a condition, the problem here is both special abilities are activated on the same condition.
The problem is your thinking of it as a Save, rather than a Special Ability
21002
Post by: megatrons2nd
Buy some of the interpretations I have read here, you can use FNP against an instant death weapon. As many of them specify that it is after an unsaved wound that it is an Instant death weapon. By the interpretation that FNP goes First Instant Death Never works because "you don't know if it is unsaved until you Fail FNP". Your words not mine. Sure you can't use it against an instant death weapon, but it isn't instant death until after the failed save and FNP. Your interpretation not mine. Even the instant death by double strength vs toughness weapons say after an unsaved wound. So your interpretation is the flawed one, as it is at the point of the save it is determined, not after a special rule.
42985
Post by: liturgies of blood
megatrons2nd wrote:Buy some of the interpretations I have read here, you can use FNP against an instant death weapon. As many of them specify that it is after an unsaved wound that it is an Instant death weapon. By the interpretation that FNP goes First Instant Death Never works because "you don't know if it is unsaved until you Fail FNP". Your words not mine. Sure you can't use it against an instant death weapon, but it isn't instant death until after the failed save and FNP. Your interpretation not mine. Even the instant death by double strength vs toughness weapons say after an unsaved wound. So your interpretation is the flawed one, as it is at the point of the save it is determined, not after a special rule.
No. Double strength is always going to deny FNP, so will a roll of a 6 to hit with kor'sarro khan or whichever of the SM special characters has that ability. Any wound that has ID cannot be FNPed BUT a wound from a force weapon is not the same as a wound from a double strength weapon. One always has ID the other doesn't always have ID. The ability to generate ID is conditional and occurs in the same general time frame as FNP and then we go to page 9. That is RAW there is no always one or always the other in RAW. That is How You Would Play It.
65330
Post by: TheSwarmLives
FNP From a Fluff standpoint is like Bruce Willis in Die Hard taking a bullet to the arm but fighting through that pain as if it didn't happen.
People hate the Fluff argument, but in a game that is built around visualizing a battle, most TO's and GW employee's are going to use this when taking the call.
The BRB tells us a blast can move out of LOS and this represents it deflecting in battle...... Yet the BRB also give no permission specifically to wound said units.
Sometimes Fluff > Page #
FNP is shrugging off a blow, Force Weapons would vaporize the target, a bone sword would cut the dude in half, thus there is no FNP.
No page # to back it, but 2 TO's and 2 GW employee's have all played it that way where I'm from.
Also I don't see how you can use FNP is there was no wound to begin with, and once you can use FNP you have to use everything else that happens with a wound. If it breaks the game, go to the rules that help you out when the game breaks. There are 2 in the BRB that can help us with this
43621
Post by: sirlynchmob
my 2c
To me the word immediately in force weapons sets the order so it would have priority for anything triggering off from unsaved wounds.
so first check for force, then FNP if you can.
21002
Post by: megatrons2nd
liturgies of blood wrote: megatrons2nd wrote:Buy some of the interpretations I have read here, you can use FNP against an instant death weapon. As many of them specify that it is after an unsaved wound that it is an Instant death weapon. By the interpretation that FNP goes First Instant Death Never works because "you don't know if it is unsaved until you Fail FNP". Your words not mine. Sure you can't use it against an instant death weapon, but it isn't instant death until after the failed save and FNP. Your interpretation not mine. Even the instant death by double strength vs toughness weapons say after an unsaved wound. So your interpretation is the flawed one, as it is at the point of the save it is determined, not after a special rule.
No. Double strength is always going to deny FNP, so will a roll of a 6 to hit with kor'sarro khan or whichever of the SM special characters has that ability. Any wound that has ID cannot be FNPed BUT a wound from a force weapon is not the same as a wound from a double strength weapon. One always has ID the other doesn't always have ID. The ability to generate ID is conditional and occurs in the same general time frame as FNP and then we go to page 9. That is RAW there is no always one or always the other in RAW. That is How You Would Play It.
Nope it says when it suffers an unsaved wound. It is not immediate, only after an unsaved wound, and thus FNP goes first by the interpretation presented. Since of course you don't know if it is unsaved until you fail the FNP roll. There are very few weapons/attacks/wounds that just cause instant death, most have a qualifier, and FNP beats all qualifiers.
See the problem with the interpretation yet?
42985
Post by: liturgies of blood
As with most things when you have to ask you're doing it wrong.
There are loads of weapons/attacks/wounds that just cause ID. The qualifiers are not beat by ID when the weapon has ID or when the stength of the attack is double the toughness of the model.
For all of them there is no FNP. This is a different situation. The same trigger for FNP causes the possible trigger of ID.
63122
Post by: warpspider89
liturgies of blood wrote:As with most things when you have to ask you're doing it wrong.
There are loads of weapons/attacks/wounds that just cause ID. The qualifiers are not beat by ID when the weapon has ID or when the stength of the attack is double the toughness of the model.
For all of them there is no FNP. This is a different situation. The same trigger for FNP causes the possible trigger of ID.
Considering that both have the same trigger, an unsaved (armor, cover, invulnerable), we should look for qualifiers that would indicate their order of occurance. So, since Force happens IMMEDIATELY after an unsaved wound (failed an actual listed save, which FNP is explicitly not) and FNP happens just after an unsaved wound (armor, cover, invulnerable) Force would, according to RAW, happen first. That FNP can reverse the failing of a save doesn't matter when it happens after an effect that changed the wound from a regular unsaved wound to an ID unsaved wound.
66089
Post by: Kangodo
warpspider89 wrote:
Considering that both have the same trigger, an unsaved (armor, cover, invulnerable), we should look for qualifiers that would indicate their order of occurance. So, since Force happens IMMEDIATELY after an unsaved wound (failed an actual listed save, which FNP is explicitly not) and FNP happens just after an unsaved wound (armor, cover, invulnerable) Force would, according to RAW, happen first. That FNP can reverse the failing of a save doesn't matter when it happens after an effect that changed the wound from a regular unsaved wound to an ID unsaved wound.
RAW would indicate that GW explains WHEN abilities happen, but they never did.
Anyway, let's make this simple.
How does Life Leech work according to you?
1) Deal 2 wounds.
2) Psyker gains two wounds back.
3) FNP rolls stop both of the wounds.
Result: Psyker gains wounds back while he actually never dealt any wounds \o/ good job!
Is that how it works according to you? Because Life Leech ALSO says immediately.
63122
Post by: warpspider89
Kangodo wrote:warpspider89 wrote:
Considering that both have the same trigger, an unsaved (armor, cover, invulnerable), we should look for qualifiers that would indicate their order of occurance. So, since Force happens IMMEDIATELY after an unsaved wound (failed an actual listed save, which FNP is explicitly not) and FNP happens just after an unsaved wound (armor, cover, invulnerable) Force would, according to RAW, happen first. That FNP can reverse the failing of a save doesn't matter when it happens after an effect that changed the wound from a regular unsaved wound to an ID unsaved wound.
RAW would indicate that GW explains WHEN abilities happen, but they never did.
Anyway, let's make this simple.
How does Life Leech work according to you?
1) Deal 2 wounds.
2) Psyker gains two wounds back.
3) FNP rolls stop both of the wounds.
Result: Psyker gains wounds back while he actually never dealt any wounds \o/ good job!
Is that how it works according to you? Because Life Leech ALSO says immediately.
I don't appreciate your attitude. It is ill-befitting what is supposed to be an impersonal discussion of rules.
As for your assessment... well you are partially correct. We should be talking about FNP not life leech since that is what this forum is about. The intricacies of life leech rules should be discussed in their own thread. However, I will use your example in the interest of being as clear and consistent as possible.
So, lets go through this:
(1) [The shooting attack] deal[s] 2 wounds. - It is possible.
(2) The Psyker gains two wounds back. - This is impossible according to the rules for Life Leech.
"If Life Leech causes at least one unsaved wound, the Psyker immediately regains a wound lost earlier in the battle (up to his starting number of wounds)" ( BRB, pp. 419).
Clearly, only one wound can be regained per casting of Life Leech because the Psyker regains a wound not one wound per wound inflicted as the example seems to be suggesting.
(3) FNP rolls stop both wounds. - This is semi-possible. The loss of wounds due to failed saves can be prevented through FNP even in this circumstance.
Immediately does explicitly mean that this happens before FNP just like for the wording with Force. So, the psyker would regain a wound. However, after the effect takes place FNP can be rolled since there is no ID effect in place, at least not in this example. This is to determine whether or not a wound is subtracted from the model's wound characteristic. Should this be passed then it will be the case that the psyker regained a wound without the model truly losing a wound, though that model did none-the-less suffer an unsaved wound, which was what allowed the psyker to gain a wound.
All of this happens without the structure of the game dissolving into anarchy.
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Post by: rigeld2
So you're not treating the wounds as saved with that example?
66089
Post by: Kangodo
warpspider89 wrote:As for your assessment... well you are partially correct. We should be talking about FNP not life leech since that is what this forum is about. The intricacies of life leech rules should be discussed in their own thread. However, I will use your example in the interest of being as clear and consistent as possible.
So, lets go through this:
(1) [The shooting attack] deal[s] 2 wounds. - It is possible.
(2) The Psyker gains two wounds back. - This is impossible according to the rules for Life Leech.
"If Life Leech causes at least one unsaved wound, the Psyker immediately regains a wound lost earlier in the battle (up to his starting number of wounds)" ( BRB, pp. 419).
Clearly, only one wound can be regained per casting of Life Leech.
(3) FNP rolls stop both wounds. - This is semi-possible. The loss of wounds due to failed saves can be prevented through FNP even in this circumstance.
Immediately does explicitly mean that this happens before FNP just like for the wording with Force. So, the psyker would regain a wound. However, after the effect takes place FNP can be rolled since there is no ID effect in place, at least not in this example. This is to determine whether or not a wound is subtracted from the model's wound characteristic. Should this be passed then it will be the case that the psyker regained a wound without the model truly losing a wound, though that model did none-the-less suffer an unsaved wound, which was what allowed the psyker to gain a wound.
All of this happens without the structure of the game dissolving into anarchy.
The problem with the FNP/Force ruling is this:
FNP first stops a wound from every turning into an ID.
Force first stops FNP from being used.
So a logical step would be to substitute one of the abilities to something that is less paradoxial.
While browsing my rulebook, my eyes fell on Life Leech (It basically has the same wording as Force, but without ID)
Life Leech indeed gives one wound back if the model has suffered an unsaved wound.
But FNP tells us to treat that wound as if it has been saved.
Therefore the Psyker can only gain the wound AFTER fnp, otherwise he'd have "leeched life" from a wound that we are supposed to treat as being saved.
I think that first letting a Psyker deal a wound and than giving him a wound back, followed by ignoring the wound that set this all in motion.. is in fact screwing with the game structure
21002
Post by: megatrons2nd
Except that it is not. When two rules happen at the same time the active player gets to chose the order. It is in the game structure for that event to happen. Your interpretation breaks this rule.
63122
Post by: warpspider89
Kangodo wrote:warpspider89 wrote:As for your assessment... well you are partially correct. We should be talking about FNP not life leech since that is what this forum is about. The intricacies of life leech rules should be discussed in their own thread. However, I will use your example in the interest of being as clear and consistent as possible.
So, lets go through this:
(1) [The shooting attack] deal[s] 2 wounds. - It is possible.
(2) The Psyker gains two wounds back. - This is impossible according to the rules for Life Leech.
"If Life Leech causes at least one unsaved wound, the Psyker immediately regains a wound lost earlier in the battle (up to his starting number of wounds)" ( BRB, pp. 419).
Clearly, only one wound can be regained per casting of Life Leech.
(3) FNP rolls stop both wounds. - This is semi-possible. The loss of wounds due to failed saves can be prevented through FNP even in this circumstance.
Immediately does explicitly mean that this happens before FNP just like for the wording with Force. So, the psyker would regain a wound. However, after the effect takes place FNP can be rolled since there is no ID effect in place, at least not in this example. This is to determine whether or not a wound is subtracted from the model's wound characteristic. Should this be passed then it will be the case that the psyker regained a wound without the model truly losing a wound, though that model did none-the-less suffer an unsaved wound, which was what allowed the psyker to gain a wound.
All of this happens without the structure of the game dissolving into anarchy.
The problem with the FNP/Force ruling is this:
FNP first stops a wound from every turning into an ID.
Force first stops FNP from being used.
So a logical step would be to substitute one of the abilities to something that is less paradoxial.
While browsing my rulebook, my eyes fell on Life Leech (It basically has the same wording as Force, but without ID)
Life Leech indeed gives one wound back if the model has suffered an unsaved wound.
But FNP tells us to treat that wound as if it has been saved.
Therefore the Psyker can only gain the wound AFTER fnp, otherwise he'd have "leeched life" from a wound that we are supposed to treat as being saved.
I think that first letting a Psyker deal a wound and than giving him a wound back, followed by ignoring the wound that set this all in motion.. is in fact screwing with the game structure 
I disagree. You can even imagine it from a fluff standpoint if that helps. A DC marine is life leeched & suffers one unsaved wound. The tyrnid hive tyrant's mental onslaught taps into the marines life force. The beast roars; it is healed! The marine falls to his knee as the life begins to flow out of him. Suddenly he see sanguinius before him. "Rise my child" sanguinius says. Suddenly the feeling of loss disappears. He feels no pain. "Fight on my child," urges Sanguinius. The DC marine takes to his feet again, raises his sword, yells, "for the Emprah" and fights on for the Imperium.
21002
Post by: megatrons2nd
A nice and "Cinematic" view to how it is working.
68416
Post by: BLADERIKER
The problem with the FNP/Force ruling is this:
FNP first stops a wound from every turning into an ID.
Force first stops FNP from being used.
As posted above FNP is not a save, and is taken after the wound is applied. While the force weapon activation is done when the unsaved wound is inflicted.
For example: An Callidus Assassin with a C'tan phase sword inflicts Four hits, and three wounds on a DC squad, armor saves are taken and one save if failed. The C'tan Phase Sword causes ID negating FNP. The wound is applied and no further test are taken.
So the order of events goes. Hits, Wounds, Saves, Wounds Inflicted, Wounds Applied.
Force Weapons can be activated when a Wound is inflicted. For example.
A five man GK Strike Squad (Using swords) charges a five man DC Assault Squad, the GK's hit six times and wound three times, NFS are ap 3, so the DC does not get armor saves and the Gk's inflict three unsaved wounds, At this point the GK's can activate their Force weapons causing the inflicted wounds to become ID. As the inflicted Wounds are ID FNP cannot be taken against them and the wounds are applied.
Hits, Wounds, Saves, Wounds Inflicted, Wounds Applied. Does this make sense? or did I miss something?
68355
Post by: easysauce
BLADERIKER wrote:The problem with the FNP/Force ruling is this:
FNP first stops a wound from every turning into an ID.
Force first stops FNP from being used.
As posted above FNP is not a save, and is taken after the wound is applied. While the force weapon activation is done when the unsaved wound is inflicted.
For example: An Callidus Assassin with a C'tan phase sword inflicts Four hits, and three wounds on a DC squad, armor saves are taken and one save if failed. The C'tan Phase Sword causes ID negating FNP. The wound is applied and no further test are taken.
So the order of events goes. Hits, Wounds, Saves, Wounds Inflicted, Wounds Applied.
Force Weapons can be activated when a Wound is inflicted. For example.
A five man GK Strike Squad (Using swords) charges a five man DC Assault Squad, the GK's hit six times and wound three times, NFS are ap 3, so the DC does not get armor saves and the Gk's inflict three unsaved wounds, At this point the GK's can activate their Force weapons causing the inflicted wounds to become ID. As the inflicted Wounds are ID FNP cannot be taken against them and the wounds are applied.
Hits, Wounds, Saves, Wounds Inflicted, Wounds Applied. Does this make sense? or did I miss something?
that would be RAW,
but some people keep insisting you apply wounds before they are inflicted, that FNP is a save and/or used to determine if wounds are unsaved, despite having to trigger of an unsaved wound in the first place ect ect and that rules that do not counter FNP somehow mean rules that do counter FNP, now do not.
63122
Post by: warpspider89
easysauce wrote:BLADERIKER wrote:The problem with the FNP/Force ruling is this:
FNP first stops a wound from every turning into an ID.
Force first stops FNP from being used.
As posted above FNP is not a save, and is taken after the wound is applied. While the force weapon activation is done when the unsaved wound is inflicted.
For example: An Callidus Assassin with a C'tan phase sword inflicts Four hits, and three wounds on a DC squad, armor saves are taken and one save if failed. The C'tan Phase Sword causes ID negating FNP. The wound is applied and no further test are taken.
So the order of events goes. Hits, Wounds, Saves, Wounds Inflicted, Wounds Applied.
Force Weapons can be activated when a Wound is inflicted. For example.
A five man GK Strike Squad (Using swords) charges a five man DC Assault Squad, the GK's hit six times and wound three times, NFS are ap 3, so the DC does not get armor saves and the Gk's inflict three unsaved wounds, At this point the GK's can activate their Force weapons causing the inflicted wounds to become ID. As the inflicted Wounds are ID FNP cannot be taken against them and the wounds are applied.
Hits, Wounds, Saves, Wounds Inflicted, Wounds Applied. Does this make sense? or did I miss something?
that would be RAW,
but some people keep insisting you apply wounds before they are inflicted, that FNP is a save and/or used to determine if wounds are unsaved, despite having to trigger of an unsaved wound in the first place ect ect and that rules that do not counter FNP somehow mean rules that do counter FNP, now do not.
LOL!!!
68416
Post by: BLADERIKER
To better understand FNP and the issue here in. One needs to understand the order of events as they occur. NOTE: Also there are several special tests that armies can take to negate wounds FNP is one of them, RP(Necrons) is the other.
Take this for example: Five man Strike Squad with two NFS two NFH and a NDH attack a Hive Tyrant Toughness 6, Mastery 1, 2+ Save(Armor) FNP(not sure if they can have FNP, but for this example it will) The Tyrant is Ini 1 due to Psyout Grenades. The GK's get eight attacks before the tyrant and 2 at the same time as the tyrant. Of the eight attacks only four hit. Of those four hits One wounds, the Tyrant makes his 2+ save. then the tyrant and the two attacks from the NDH go. The NDH gets one hit. This hit wounds, (As the NDH is AP2 it ignores the 2+ armor save and auto inflicts a wound. At this point the GK can Activate his Warp Charge(with a Psychic test) which he passes and make his NDH an ID Weapon. At this point the wound is applied to the Tyrant and the tyrant is slain out right.
However, should the Psychic test be failed, then the wound is applied as a single wound without the ID Special rule and FNP can be taken against it.
Another way to show this is.
Take a Necron Overlord and his royal court of which contains Five lords The Overlord has, warscythe, the Lords , warscythes, and at least one rez orb. this unit gets charged by the same GK Strike Squad used above. The GK's get eight attacks of which 4 hit and 3 wound. All Ap 3 which negates the 3+ armor of the Necrons, at which point they activate their force weapons to make these wounds ID and kill three necrons including the Overlord. The Three Lords attack back and hit twice and wound twice with AP1 negating the GK's 3+ armor. killing twoThe the NDH attacks hiting one and wounding once at Ap 2 whch negates the 3+ armor of the Lords, killing one more. The Necrons lose combat by 2, but make their Leadership check and stay locked in combat. At this point The Necrons can make their RP and three get back up(Overlord and two lords)
In both cases the order of events went: Roll to Hit, Roll to Wound, Roll to Save (If you can), Inflict Wounds(Use Special Abilities That Proc off of Wounds Inflicted/unsaved), Apply Wounds.(Activate Abilities that Proc on Wounds Applied). Activate Abilities Used after Wounds are applied/tests taken.
I could be wrong but, it seem that FNP is activated when the wound is applied or even after the wound is applied, not when the wound is inflicted. As it states in the BRB "Feel No Pain is not a save) it is a special test taken after a wound is applied.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for the Life Leech argument and FNP here's my two cents.
Life Leech does not inflict ID so a Unit or Model with FNP can take a FNP test for unsaved wound/wounds from Life Leech (thus healing the Caster) and still use FNP to negate the applied wound. This does not break the rules.
here's how it works. You roll to hit with Life Leech. You roll to wound with Life Leech, The Target gets a save against Life Leech. Inflicted Wounds are applied to target and effects from unsaved wounds are applied. Unit/Model suffer wounds. FNP is taken to negate the suffered wounds. Thus the Life Leech heals its caster, and FNP keeps the Target Unit from losing a wound/wounds.
Not at all broken.
Still what does this have to do with Force Weapons and FNP?
9288
Post by: DevianID
While force weapons and Fnp both activate on unsaved wounds, Fnp must come first.
Consider a normal unit with mixed saves. Per the rules, a model that fails its save loses a wound from its profile. Were we to apply that Fnp is not resolved as an interrupt as opposed to at the same time as a model has an unsaved wound, then we could choose to first remove the model as a casualty and then treat the wound as saved, despite the model being gone.
So without any other special rule such as entropic strike or force, we see that Fnp has issues with timing since it does not specify to do Fnp before anything else that happens with an unsaved wound.
If we conclude that force can activate before Fnp, we must also conclude that wounds can be removed before Fnp, since both resolve upon unsaved wounds. Clearly that order is not intended as you could tell your opponent that on your turn their Fnp will resolve second to removing wounds, making it useless.
68289
Post by: Nem
DevianID wrote:While force weapons and Fnp both activate on unsaved wounds, Fnp must come first.
...
...
If we conclude that force can activate before Fnp, we must also conclude that wounds can be removed before Fnp, since both resolve upon unsaved wounds. Clearly that order is not intended as you could tell your opponent that on your turn their Fnp will resolve second to removing wounds, making it useless.
The point is, one will always make the other useless.
9288
Post by: DevianID
Right, but while the raw on fnp is poorly worded, do you play that Fnp comes after models are removed from the table? No of course not. Therefore you play that Fnp comes before unsaved wound resolution for force weapons as well for consistency.
68289
Post by: Nem
DevianID wrote:Right, but while the raw on fnp is poorly worded, do you play that Fnp comes after models are removed from the table? No of course not. Therefore you play that Fnp comes before unsaved wound resolution for force weapons as well for consistency.
Its worded as worded, FNP is activated as by 'Suffering a Unsaved wound' it means what it says. The fact that FNP is 'treated as saved' if successful is the badly worded part.
9288
Post by: DevianID
Nem, I don't understand your comment. It's worded as its worded?
66089
Post by: Kangodo
easysauce wrote:that would be RAW, but some people keep insisting you apply wounds before they are inflicted, that FNP is a save and/or used to determine if wounds are unsaved, despite having to trigger of an unsaved wound in the first place ect ect and that rules that do not counter FNP somehow mean rules that do counter FNP, now do not.
Nobody insists that, even the contrary. People use the rules that "do not counter FnP" to show a precedent that FnP should be rolled first. Another one would be Lemartes' Fury Unbound. When suffering an unsaved wound, his STR and A goes to 5, but he also has Feel no Pain. Again FnP goes first and he can't trigger Fury Unbound from a discounted wound seeing as we have to treat it as being saved. So now we have around five examples where FnP should be rolled first? BLADERIKER wrote:In both cases the order of events went: Roll to Hit, Roll to Wound, Roll to Save (If you can), Inflict Wounds(Use Special Abilities That Proc off of Wounds Inflicted/unsaved), Apply Wounds.(Activate Abilities that Proc on Wounds Applied). Activate Abilities Used after Wounds are applied/tests taken. I could be wrong but, it seem that FNP is activated when the wound is applied or even after the wound is applied, not when the wound is inflicted. As it states in the BRB "Feel No Pain is not a save) it is a special test taken after a wound is applied. That's where I have to disagree. My rulebook nowhere says that inflicting wounds happens before applying them. here's how it works. You roll to hit with Life Leech. You roll to wound with Life Leech, The Target gets a save against Life Leech. Inflicted Wounds are applied to target and effects from unsaved wounds are applied. Unit/Model suffer wounds. FNP is taken to negate the suffered wounds. Thus the Life Leech heals its caster, and FNP keeps the Target Unit from losing a wound/wounds.
So you are telling me that you leeched a wound that you never dealt in the first place? Life Leech is when you drain the life out of an enemy. When you fail to drain the life out of someone, you won't get his life.
50763
Post by: copper.talos
Exactly where is the problem with Lemartes? He suffers an unsaved wound, gets angry and becomes str 5, and with FNP he doesn't lose a wound. Just like Rocky Balboa...
66089
Post by: Kangodo
copper.talos wrote:Exactly where is the problem with Lemartes? He suffers an unsaved wound, gets angry and becomes str 5, and with FNP he doesn't lose a wound. Just like Rocky Balboa...
Because we have tons of other threads on that.
They concluded that FnP comes first and he doesn't get his STR5/A5.
50763
Post by: copper.talos
No, the only conclusion is that the community here in dakka is divided. As I said before there was a poll here with a minor advantage in the "against FNP" side.
68289
Post by: Nem
DevianID wrote:Nem, I don't understand your comment. It's worded as its worded?
Sorry, confusing take on 'It is what it is'
-
The problem I have with the arguements presented for FNP is the outcome means FNP would always get priority over other abilities which are triggered by the same condition ('Suffering a Unsaved wound'). I just can't accept its intended that FNP Special Rule always gets Proirity over other Special Rules triggered.
66089
Post by: Kangodo
Nem wrote:The problem I have with the arguements presented for FNP is the outcome means FNP would always get priority over other abilities which are triggered by the same condition ('Suffering a Unsaved wound'). I just can't accept its intended that FNP Special Rule always gets Proirity over other Special Rules triggered.
That's because it's a save that officially isn't a saving throw.
The reason it's not a saving throw is because we are only allowed to use ONE of those.
They worded it (as badly as it is) to make it clear we have two "saves" instead of one.
And I am quite happy with having FnP goes first, whether it's good or bad.
I will admit that I hardly care, the outcome doesn't have any result on my playing. (Sorry, I lied. It does have a result. I play Lemartes and never encounter GK, so FnP going last would actually benefit me)
To say that sometimes FnP goes first and at other times it goes second is really bad and will result into "I will just do what benefits me at that moment!"
For all I care FnP could always go last.
But we have found a couple of similar cases where FnP going last makes no sense and I believe it sets a precedent for the rule.
50763
Post by: copper.talos
FNP wording makes it crystal clear that it is not a saving throw, so you should never treat it as one.
66089
Post by: Kangodo
copper.talos wrote:FNP wording makes it crystal clear that it is not a saving throw, so you should never treat it as one.
Treat the wound as being saved
So you should treat it as one, even though it's not saving throw.
50763
Post by: copper.talos
The problem with what you posted isn't in the result, it's in the process. By saying it is a 2nd save you hint that it should be rolled after the normal save, which is wrong.
66089
Post by: Kangodo
copper.talos wrote:The problem with what you posted isn't in the result, it's in the process. By saying it is a 2nd save you hint that it should be rolled after the normal save, which is wrong.
I fully understand. But by saying it should be rolled "after" stuff we encounter even more problems. Maybe the best solution would even be to use that one rule, saying the player who's turn it is decides what goes first?
21002
Post by: megatrons2nd
Kangodo wrote:copper.talos wrote:The problem with what you posted isn't in the result, it's in the process. By saying it is a 2nd save you hint that it should be rolled after the normal save, which is wrong.
I fully understand.
But by saying it should be rolled "after" stuff we encounter even more problems.
Maybe the best solution would even be to use that one rule, saying the player who's turn it is decides what goes first?
Or the rule that allows models to be affected by multiple special rules.
50763
Post by: copper.talos
@Kangodo
It's up to the players/TO. In my club we have already decided how to play it so there isn't a problem. But if you can't reach an agreement with your opponent, then that's the most fair solution.
I hope we get a faq on this. This has been an issue since 5th.
63122
Post by: warpspider89
Kangodo wrote:easysauce wrote:that would be RAW,
but some people keep insisting you apply wounds before they are inflicted, that FNP is a save and/or used to determine if wounds are unsaved, despite having to trigger of an unsaved wound in the first place ect ect and that rules that do not counter FNP somehow mean rules that do counter FNP, now do not.
Nobody insists that, even the contrary.
People use the rules that "do not counter FnP" to show a precedent that FnP should be rolled first.
Another one would be Lemartes' Fury Unbound.
When suffering an unsaved wound, his STR and A goes to 5, but he also has Feel no Pain.
Again FnP goes first and he can't trigger Fury Unbound from a discounted wound seeing as we have to treat it as being saved.
So now we have around five examples where FnP should be rolled first?
BLADERIKER wrote:In both cases the order of events went: Roll to Hit, Roll to Wound, Roll to Save (If you can), Inflict Wounds(Use Special Abilities That Proc off of Wounds Inflicted/unsaved), Apply Wounds.(Activate Abilities that Proc on Wounds Applied). Activate Abilities Used after Wounds are applied/tests taken.
I could be wrong but, it seem that FNP is activated when the wound is applied or even after the wound is applied, not when the wound is inflicted. As it states in the BRB "Feel No Pain is not a save) it is a special test taken after a wound is applied.
That's where I have to disagree.
My rulebook nowhere says that inflicting wounds happens before applying them.
here's how it works. You roll to hit with Life Leech. You roll to wound with Life Leech, The Target gets a save against Life Leech. Inflicted Wounds are applied to target and effects from unsaved wounds are applied. Unit/Model suffer wounds. FNP is taken to negate the suffered wounds. Thus the Life Leech heals its caster, and FNP keeps the Target Unit from losing a wound/wounds.
So you are telling me that you leeched a wound that you never dealt in the first place?
Life Leech is when you drain the life out of an enemy.
When you fail to drain the life out of someone, you won't get his life.
This argument about FNP Lemartes is logically flawed because, in arguing for the occurrence of FNP in a certain order, it assumes that there is an accepted order, which is the topic of this debate.
It is like saying the definition of a television is a television.
As for the explanation of Life Leech...
"So you are telling me that you leeched a wound that you never dealt in the first place? Life Leech is when you drain the life out of an enemy. When you fail to drain the life out of someone, you won't get his life."
First of all this is a subjective conceptualization of how the rules work.
Second, it is not necessary, according to the rules, that someone needs to lose a wound to provide the attacking psyker with a gained wound. The rules explicitly state that an unsaved wound need be inflicted. It does not say that that wound needs to be applied.
68416
Post by: BLADERIKER
Maybe this will help make clear my logic here.
I can see where my logic was flawed on the Life Leech thing as I was comparing FNP to RP, which happen after a unite/model is removed as a casualty, and not before however, I do feel that this is an order of events issue. I'll try to explain.
You have to roll for every thing and some things happen at certain times. So I'll try to break it down.
Step 1: Roll to Hit. (reroll if you can). Step 2: Roll to Wound. Step 3:(reroll if you can). Roll to Save. Step. (Reroll if you can). Step 4: Then Apply Wounds(remove models), Step 5: Test as needed. I'll break this down further.
Step 1: Roll to hit, if I are TL or have FE you get some form of reroll. This is also when To hit effects are resolved, as hits are inflicted.
Step 2: Roll to wound, if I have FE or any number of other special abilities that let you reroll failed to wound rolls here is where it is done. This is the phase wounds are inflicted.
Step 3: Roll to Save, this is where I attempt to negate the wounds inflicted by using a saving throw. (Armor, Invul, Cover), this is where unsaved wounds are inflicted and effects for unsaved inflicted wounds are resolved such as Force weapons.
Step 4: Apply Wounds, this is where I apply my unsaved wounds/suffer wounds to my models, this is where I rules that effect Suffered wounds are resolved such as FNP.
Step 5: Test if Needed, this is where I make necessary moral checks, this is where rules that take place after Moral test happen such as Fall backs and RP.
Basically. A force weapon can be activated when an inflicted wound is unsaved ( causing it to be ID, which negates FNP) Another way to show this is simple, A power weapon is ap 3 and when I inflict the wound on a model that is wearing armor 3...6 (without an invul save) I instantly inflict a un-saved Wound ( as it is clearly stated that FNP is not a save) at that point I can roll to see if my force weapon causes ID and if I pass the test my opponent will be unable to use FNP to stop the wound from being applied, which may result in the unit or model being slain out right (barring EW)
Also the circular logic that FNP is a Save does not work. Does FNP let you ignore a Wound taken (As though is was saved after the fact)? Yes it does, How does FNP trigger? FNP triggers off of a Unsaved Wound that is suffered by the unit/model. So to use FNP I would have had to have suffered an unsaved wound or Feel no pain cannot be used at all. As FNP is not a saving throw I cannot take this test in the saving step of the the order of events. FNP activates after wounds are applied, but before models are removed and tests are taken. (Which is the reverse of RP)
I understand the confusion regarding this issue from both sides, sadly until they either make a FAQ entry regarding this issue, or make errata changes to either Force or FNP, we are stuck with; Force weapons can be activated immediately after a wounds goes unsaved, and FNP is taken after an unsaved is suffer (Note that Feel No Pain is not a saving throw).
64936
Post by: olcottr
I just use the logic if Party A inflicts X on Party B, then Party B suffers from X.
FORCE
If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test.
If the test is passed, all unsaved Wounds inflicted by the Force weapon that turn have the Instant Death special rule.
FEEL NO PAIN
Roll a D6 each time an unsaved Wound is suffered. On a 4 or less, you must take the Wound as normal. On a 5+, the unsaved Wound is discounted - treat it as having been saved.
Note that Feel No Pain rolls cannot be made against unsaved Wounds that inflict Instant Death.
Also, the rule seems to say FNP does not count as a save until it is made. Weird.
66089
Post by: Kangodo
BLADERIKER wrote:Maybe this will help make clear my logic here.
I can see where my logic was flawed on the Life Leech thing as I was comparing FNP to RP, which happen after a unite/model is removed as a casualty, and not before however, I do feel that this is an order of events issue. I'll try to explain.
You have to roll for every thing and some things happen at certain times. So I'll try to break it down.
Step 1: Roll to Hit. (reroll if you can). Step 2: Roll to Wound. Step 3:(reroll if you can). Roll to Save. Step. (Reroll if you can). Step 4: Then Apply Wounds(remove models), Step 5: Test as needed. I'll break this down further.
Step 1: Roll to hit, if I are TL or have FE you get some form of reroll. This is also when To hit effects are resolved, as hits are inflicted.
Step 2: Roll to wound, if I have FE or any number of other special abilities that let you reroll failed to wound rolls here is where it is done. This is the phase wounds are inflicted.
Step 3: Roll to Save, this is where I attempt to negate the wounds inflicted by using a saving throw. (Armor, Invul, Cover), this is where unsaved wounds are inflicted and effects for unsaved inflicted wounds are resolved such as Force weapons.
Step 4: Apply Wounds, this is where I apply my unsaved wounds/suffer wounds to my models, this is where I rules that effect Suffered wounds are resolved such as FNP.
Step 5: Test if Needed, this is where I make necessary moral checks, this is where rules that take place after Moral test happen such as Fall backs and RP.
Basically. A force weapon can be activated when an inflicted wound is unsaved ( causing it to be ID, which negates FNP) Another way to show this is simple, A power weapon is ap 3 and when I inflict the wound on a model that is wearing armor 3...6 (without an invul save) I instantly inflict a un-saved Wound ( as it is clearly stated that FNP is not a save) at that point I can roll to see if my force weapon causes ID and if I pass the test my opponent will be unable to use FNP to stop the wound from being applied, which may result in the unit or model being slain out right (barring EW)
Also the circular logic that FNP is a Save does not work. Does FNP let you ignore a Wound taken (As though is was saved after the fact)? Yes it does, How does FNP trigger? FNP triggers off of a Unsaved Wound that is suffered by the unit/model. So to use FNP I would have had to have suffered an unsaved wound or Feel no pain cannot be used at all. As FNP is not a saving throw I cannot take this test in the saving step of the the order of events. FNP activates after wounds are applied, but before models are removed and tests are taken. (Which is the reverse of RP)
I understand the confusion regarding this issue from both sides, sadly until they either make a FAQ entry regarding this issue, or make errata changes to either Force or FNP, we are stuck with; Force weapons can be activated immediately after a wounds goes unsaved, and FNP is taken after an unsaved is suffer (Note that Feel No Pain is not a saving throw).
This was really a good read and you must have put quite some effort in it.
But than this problem rises: Where do the rules state that "inflicting" wounds and "suffering" wounds happen at a different time?
It's great that you've made 5 steps on how to resolve things, but I cannot find a basis for that in the BRB.
Let's use this in an example: A sword is pierced trough an armour.
What goes first? The sword piercing the armour or the armour being pierced by the sword?
If we go by the rules, we can see that these things "happen at the same time".
The nature of these abilities however stop the other thing from happening.
So I agree that we really need an errata on this, not just a FAQ because FAQ's are meant for one ability, this is something that affects a lot in the game.
I think that this rule is something every playgroup should "discuss" for themselves, because it's easier to determine a solution.
After all these pages it's quite clear that against any argument for FnP going first, someone has a counter and vice-versa.
At the moment, I have heard two good solutions within my group:
1) Since FnP says we should treat the wound as "being saved", FnP has to be rolled as if it was a save (in our games!).
2) We play a lot of MtG and they have the rule that whenever two things trigger at the same time, the controlling player goes first.
46128
Post by: Happyjew
I guess it comes down to is when is an unsaved wound suffered, and when is it inflicted.
Basically, is the wound suffered/inflicted before or after Wounds are reduced by 1?
43621
Post by: sirlynchmob
Happyjew wrote:I guess it comes down to is when is an unsaved wound suffered, and when is it inflicted.
Basically, is the wound suffered/inflicted before or after Wounds are reduced by 1?
You have unsaved wounds as soon as the save is failed.
9288
Post by: DevianID
sirlynchmob, right you fail a save (or dont get one) and that is an unsaved wound. A model with an unsaved wound is removed if it has only one wound. If FnP doesnt say it comes before the wound is counted as unsaved so then FnP has no effect... the model is removed (or the psyker gains a life leech wound, or force activates instant death) before you are allowed to use FnP--at worst they happen at the same time and your opponent decides the order on their turn. This obviously is not the intention of FnP, and no one plays FnP that it doesnt work on your opponents turn.
Poorly written wording on timing does not mean that you cant use FnP at all. That is like saying a model with no eyes (or with eyes covered) can never draw LOS and so cant shoot.
63122
Post by: warpspider89
sirlynchmob wrote: Happyjew wrote:I guess it comes down to is when is an unsaved wound suffered, and when is it inflicted.
Basically, is the wound suffered/inflicted before or after Wounds are reduced by 1?
You have unsaved wounds as soon as the save is failed.
If a model receives an unsaved wound, then the Wound characteristic of that model is reduced by one. The reduction of the wound characteristic is conditional on the reception of an unsaved wound. So one has to happen before the other. Some things can interrupt this order.
68416
Post by: BLADERIKER
Kangodo Wrote:
This was really a good read and you must have put quite some effort in it.
But than this problem rises: Where do the rules state that "inflicting" wounds and "suffering" wounds happen at a different time?
It's great that you've made 5 steps on how to resolve things, but I cannot find a basis for that in the BRB.
The Basis for this step by step order is found on Page 13-15 of the Little Rule Book, as well as pages 22-24 in same rule book.
On page 13: Roll to hit. (Self explanatory) Page 14, Middle left: Roll to wound. (Self explanatory). Page 14, lower right: Wound Pool. ( The total number of wounds caused before saves.)
Page 14, Top Left: Allocating Wounds & Remove Causalities: "To determine how many wounds are caused, you will need to allocate the Wounds caused and resolved any saving throws the target is allowed.) Page 14, top left: Take Saving Throws. "First of all, the target unit gets to make One saving throw, if it has one (See Page 16) for each Wound being resolved. Make note of how many unsaved Wounds have been caused." Page 14, Middle Left: Allocate Unsaved Wounds & Remove Casualties. " Next, allocate an unsaved wound to an enemy model closest to the firing unit, reduce the models Wounds by 1."
Page 24, Top Right: Allocating Wounds. "After determining the number of Wounds Inflicted against a unit at a particular initiative step, Wounds are allocated, saves taken and casualties removed."
This is the order of events right out of the Rule Book for determining what happens at what step. Now to reference this again...
"Feel No Pain: When a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved Wound, it can make a special Feel No Pain roll to avoid being wounded ( this is not a saving throw)." Pg 35, Top Right, 6th Ed Little Rule Book).
"Force: If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge and taking a Psychic Test (See Page 67), If the test is failed, or the bearer has no Warp Charge points to spend, then there is no additional effect.- If the test is passed, all unsaved wounds Inflicted by the Force weapon that turn have the Instant Death special rule (see page 38". ( Pg 37, Top Left, 6th Ed Little Rule Book).
The reason for this confusion is based in the 5th Ed rules for Force and FNP. Which I will now cite.
"Feel No Pain: "If a model with this ability suffers an unsaved Wound, roll a dice. on a 1,2,or 3 take the wound as normal(removing the model if it loses its final Wound). On a 4, 5, or 6, the injury is ignored and the model continues Fighting." ( Pg 75, Middle Left, 5th Ed Rule Book).
"Force Weapons: Roll to hit and wound as normal, allowing any invulnerable saving throws the victim might have. The Psyker may take a Psychic test to use the weapon's power against any one opponent that suffered an unsaved wound by the weapon in that player turn.- If the test is passed, the enemy model suffers instant death regardless of its toughness value." ( Pg 50, Bottom Right, 5th Ed Little Rule Book).
In 5th Ed, FNP was taken before you could activate a Force Weapon, this was due to the fact that for the force weapon to activate you have to have an unsaved wound, and in 5th Ed you would test FNP to see if there are any unsaved wounds.
In 6th Ed, FNP only works if you suffer an unsaved wound that does not inflict ID. In 6th Ed, as soon as a Saving throw is failed the Psyker can make a Force weapon activation test, before the wound is applied/suffered by the unit, if passed the wounds caused by the force weapon that turn all have the ID Special Rule.
This is pretty much cut and dry.
47462
Post by: rigeld2
In 5th you also could not take FNP on ID wounds. So applying it one way in 5th and another in 6th makes no sense.
68416
Post by: BLADERIKER
rigeld2 wrote:In 5th you also could not take FNP on ID wounds. So applying it one way in 5th and another in 6th makes no sense.
In 6th Ed you cannot take a FNP against a wound with the ID special rule. nothing has changed there. Page 4, of the BRB FAQ, middle of the left side "Q: can Feel No Pain rolls be made against Wounds inflicted by weapons that have the Instant Death Special Rule? (p35) A: No"
So where is the confusion here?
45565
Post by: cormadepanda
Basically the issues is:
I am being hit by a libby stick, meh i took 2 wounds! The horror! let me roll saves!
1 wound still got through!
What comes first -
The possible FNP rule?
The possible ID force rule?
At the time of the unsaved wound two checks come up both the force check and the FNP check. They would be simultaneous. Who/what goes first? If it is the force check, the FNP could be ignored, if it is the FNP check, then it is the wound could be saved.
In all honesty i dont know who to say goes first, but am leaning into the good old defender has first go.
31450
Post by: DeathReaper
Since FNP makes the unsaved wound saved, it must come before anything that triggers off an unsaved wound (FW activation, ES, etc). This is because without resolving FNP we don't know if the wound is actually unsaved.
Rolling FNP First break no rules.
Rolling anything else first and you break rules like ES, Hexrifle etc.
50763
Post by: copper.talos
That's circular logic. How about this:
Using Force makes a wound and ID wound, so it must be done before any ability that needs to check if the wound that was inflicted was ID or not.
66089
Post by: Kangodo
BLADERIKER wrote:The Basis for this step by step order is found on Page 13-15 of the Little Rule Book, as well as pages 22-24 in same rule book.
On page 13: Roll to hit. (Self explanatory) Page 14, Middle left: Roll to wound. (Self explanatory). Page 14, lower right: Wound Pool. ( The total number of wounds caused before saves.)
Page 14, Top Left: Allocating Wounds & Remove Causalities: "To determine how many wounds are caused, you will need to allocate the Wounds caused and resolved any saving throws the target is allowed.) Page 14, top left: Take Saving Throws. "First of all, the target unit gets to make One saving throw, if it has one (See Page 16) for each Wound being resolved. Make note of how many unsaved Wounds have been caused." Page 14, Middle Left: Allocate Unsaved Wounds & Remove Casualties. " Next, allocate an unsaved wound to an enemy model closest to the firing unit, reduce the models Wounds by 1."
Page 24, Top Right: Allocating Wounds. "After determining the number of Wounds Inflicted against a unit at a particular initiative step, Wounds are allocated, saves taken and casualties removed."
This is the order of events right out of the Rule Book for determining what happens at what step. Now to reference this again...
"Feel No Pain: When a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved Wound, it can make a special Feel No Pain roll to avoid being wounded ( this is not a saving throw)." Pg 35, Top Right, 6th Ed Little Rule Book).
"Force: If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge and taking a Psychic Test (See Page 67), If the test is failed, or the bearer has no Warp Charge points to spend, then there is no additional effect.- If the test is passed, all unsaved wounds Inflicted by the Force weapon that turn have the Instant Death special rule (see page 38". ( Pg 37, Top Left, 6th Ed Little Rule Book).
The reason for this confusion is based in the 5th Ed rules for Force and FNP. Which I will now cite.
"Feel No Pain: "If a model with this ability suffers an unsaved Wound, roll a dice. on a 1,2,or 3 take the wound as normal(removing the model if it loses its final Wound). On a 4, 5, or 6, the injury is ignored and the model continues Fighting." ( Pg 75, Middle Left, 5th Ed Rule Book).
"Force Weapons: Roll to hit and wound as normal, allowing any invulnerable saving throws the victim might have. The Psyker may take a Psychic test to use the weapon's power against any one opponent that suffered an unsaved wound by the weapon in that player turn.- If the test is passed, the enemy model suffers instant death regardless of its toughness value." ( Pg 50, Bottom Right, 5th Ed Little Rule Book).
In 5th Ed, FNP was taken before you could activate a Force Weapon, this was due to the fact that for the force weapon to activate you have to have an unsaved wound, and in 5th Ed you would test FNP to see if there are any unsaved wounds.
In 6th Ed, FNP only works if you suffer an unsaved wound that does not inflict ID. In 6th Ed, as soon as a Saving throw is failed the Psyker can make a Force weapon activation test, before the wound is applied/suffered by the unit, if passed the wounds caused by the force weapon that turn all have the ID Special Rule.
This is pretty much cut and dry.
I have checked everything and you are correct!
The steps are indeed:
Roll to hit.
Roll to wound.
Put wounds in wound-pool, now they are inflicted and people may activate Force.
Then you allocate wounds and make your saves.
Now you can activate FnP!
Last part is where you remove casualties.
So I was right! FnP is indeed taken right after Armour-saves.
It's just that RAW state that you roll for Force before rolls for Armour and stuff, giving it a high potential to waste your Warp Charges.
That is how it's described in: "After determining the number of Wounds Inflicted against a unit at a particular initiative step, Wounds are allocated, saves taken and casualties removed."
The reason for this confusion is based in the 5th Ed rules for Force and FNP.
I hardly think so, I started playing in 6th Ed.
21002
Post by: megatrons2nd
DeathReaper wrote:Since FNP makes the unsaved wound saved, it must come before anything that triggers off an unsaved wound ( FW activation, ES, etc). This is because without resolving FNP we don't know if the wound is actually unsaved.
Rolling FNP First break no rules.
Rolling anything else first and you break rules like ES, Hexrifle etc.
If, with the hex rifle, you are removed from play, the model no longer exists and doesn't have FNP as it is no longer in play, and thus has access to no rules.
Again multiple special rules stack, unless they are the same rule. You might not, ultimately, take the wound but all special rules still happen.
Doing it your way Instant death can only happen with a select few weapons, as most of those that cause instant death specify that they only cause instant death on an unsaved wound. And as you say you don't know if it is unsaved until you fail FNP. Even the Double Strength requires an unsaved wound to become instant death.
47462
Post by: rigeld2
BLADERIKER wrote:rigeld2 wrote:In 5th you also could not take FNP on ID wounds. So applying it one way in 5th and another in 6th makes no sense.
In 6th Ed you cannot take a FNP against a wound with the ID special rule. nothing has changed there. Page 4, of the BRB FAQ, middle of the left side "Q: can Feel No Pain rolls be made against Wounds inflicted by weapons that have the Instant Death Special Rule? (p35) A: No"
So where is the confusion here?
Force weapons that are not double toughness do not have the ID rule.
And you said in 5th FNP would come first. Why are you applying Force first in 6th when the triggers have not changed whatsoever? Automatically Appended Next Post: Kangodo wrote:Put wounds in wound-pool, now they are inflicted and people may activate Force.
This is incorrect. Populating the wound pool is not the same as inflicting an unsaved wound. The latter requires allocation.
31450
Post by: DeathReaper
megatrons2nd wrote:If, with the hex rifle, you are removed from play, the model no longer exists and doesn't have FNP as it is no longer in play, and thus has access to no rules.
That way breaks a rule as you must take a FNP roll against the wound. Again multiple special rules stack, unless they are the same rule. You might not, ultimately, take the wound but all special rules still happen.
The do happen, unless we are treating the wound as saved after a successful FNP roll, then nothing can trigger off of the (now saved) wound. Doing it your way Instant death can only happen with a select few weapons, as most of those that cause instant death specify that they only cause instant death on an unsaved wound. And as you say you don't know if it is unsaved until you fail FNP. Even the Double Strength requires an unsaved wound to become instant death.
Completely false. The Str double tough wound causes ID so FNP can not be taken against it. Re-read FNP P. 35. The wound from a force weapon does not cause ID so you can take a FNP against it.
68416
Post by: BLADERIKER
Kangodo wrote:BLADERIKER wrote:The Basis for this step by step order is found on Page 13-15 of the Little Rule Book, as well as pages 22-24 in same rule book.
On page 13: Roll to hit. (Self explanatory) Page 14, Middle left: Roll to wound. (Self explanatory). Page 14, lower right: Wound Pool. ( The total number of wounds caused before saves.)
Page 14, Top Left: Allocating Wounds & Remove Causalities: "To determine how many wounds are caused, you will need to allocate the Wounds caused and resolved any saving throws the target is allowed.) Page 14, top left: Take Saving Throws. "First of all, the target unit gets to make One saving throw, if it has one (See Page 16) for each Wound being resolved. Make note of how many unsaved Wounds have been caused." Page 14, Middle Left: Allocate Unsaved Wounds & Remove Casualties. " Next, allocate an unsaved wound to an enemy model closest to the firing unit, reduce the models Wounds by 1."
Page 24, Top Right: Allocating Wounds. "After determining the number of Wounds Inflicted against a unit at a particular initiative step, Wounds are allocated, saves taken and casualties removed."
This is the order of events right out of the Rule Book for determining what happens at what step. Now to reference this again...
"Feel No Pain: When a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved Wound, it can make a special Feel No Pain roll to avoid being wounded ( this is not a saving throw)." Pg 35, Top Right, 6th Ed Little Rule Book).
"Force: If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge and taking a Psychic Test (See Page 67), If the test is failed, or the bearer has no Warp Charge points to spend, then there is no additional effect.- If the test is passed, all unsaved wounds Inflicted by the Force weapon that turn have the Instant Death special rule (see page 38". ( Pg 37, Top Left, 6th Ed Little Rule Book).
The reason for this confusion is based in the 5th Ed rules for Force and FNP. Which I will now cite.
"Feel No Pain: "If a model with this ability suffers an unsaved Wound, roll a dice. on a 1,2,or 3 take the wound as normal(removing the model if it loses its final Wound). On a 4, 5, or 6, the injury is ignored and the model continues Fighting." ( Pg 75, Middle Left, 5th Ed Rule Book).
"Force Weapons: Roll to hit and wound as normal, allowing any invulnerable saving throws the victim might have. The Psyker may take a Psychic test to use the weapon's power against any one opponent that suffered an unsaved wound by the weapon in that player turn.- If the test is passed, the enemy model suffers instant death regardless of its toughness value." ( Pg 50, Bottom Right, 5th Ed Little Rule Book).
In 5th Ed, FNP was taken before you could activate a Force Weapon, this was due to the fact that for the force weapon to activate you have to have an unsaved wound, and in 5th Ed you would test FNP to see if there are any unsaved wounds.
In 6th Ed, FNP only works if you suffer an unsaved wound that does not inflict ID. In 6th Ed, as soon as a Saving throw is failed the Psyker can make a Force weapon activation test, before the wound is applied/suffered by the unit, if passed the wounds caused by the force weapon that turn all have the ID Special Rule.
This is pretty much cut and dry.
I have checked everything and you are correct!
The steps are indeed:
Roll to hit.
Roll to wound.
Put wounds in wound-pool, now they are inflicted and people may activate Force.
Then you allocate wounds and make your saves.
Now you can activate FnP!
Last part is where you remove casualties.
So I was right! FnP is indeed taken right after Armour-saves.
It's just that RAW state that you roll for Force before rolls for Armour and stuff, giving it a high potential to waste your Warp Charges.
That is how it's described in: "After determining the number of Wounds Inflicted against a unit at a particular initiative step, Wounds are allocated, saves taken and casualties removed."
The reason for this confusion is based in the 5th Ed rules for Force and FNP.
I hardly think so, I started playing in 6th Ed.
Just for clarity a it seems there are some that are still confused, so I colored the order mixs up.
It goes:
Put Wounds in the wound Pool. (Wounds are inflicted)
Roll saves if any, if failed. (Inflicted Wound are unsaved) Player may activate Force.
Then you allocate wounds to the models (Model suffers a Wound) player may use FNP.
Back in 5th Ed, Force was dependent on whether or not the wound was suffered and not inflicted, and this was why FNP were taken before Force. In 6th Ed FNP is determined by whether or not the Weapon causes ID, which now Force activation happens before the wound is suffered and thus comes before you can take a FNP special roll.
66089
Post by: Kangodo
BLADERIKER wrote:Just for clarity a it seems there are some that are still confused, so I colored the order mixs up.
It goes:
Put Wounds in the wound Pool. (Wounds are inflicted)
Roll saves if any, if failed. (Inflicted Wound are unsaved) Player may activate Force.
Then you allocate wounds to the models (Model suffers a Wound) player may use FNP.
Back in 5th Ed, Force was dependent on whether or not the wound was suffered and not inflicted, and this was why FNP were taken before Force. In 6th Ed FNP is determined by whether or not the Weapon causes ID, which now Force activation happens before the wound is suffered and thus comes before you can take a FNP special roll.
But that's not what your big post said.
Your post literally said that: " Page 24, Top Right: Allocating Wounds. "After determining the number of Wounds Inflicted against a unit at a particular initiative step, Wounds are allocated, saves taken and casualties removed." "
1. Wounds are inflicted/counted.
2. Wounds are allocated.
3. Saves can be taken.
4. Casualties are removed.
Force should be activated immediately on the moment they are inflicted!
The only time that could happen is in step 1, thus before they are allocated and saves are taken.
Unless you are going to contradict that long post.
68416
Post by: BLADERIKER
DeathReaper wrote: megatrons2nd wrote:If, with the hex rifle, you are removed from play, the model no longer exists and doesn't have FNP as it is no longer in play, and thus has access to no rules.
That way breaks a rule as you must take a FNP roll against the wound.
Again multiple special rules stack, unless they are the same rule. You might not, ultimately, take the wound but all special rules still happen.
The do happen, unless we are treating the wound as saved after a successful FNP roll, then nothing can trigger off of the (now saved) wound.
Doing it your way Instant death can only happen with a select few weapons, as most of those that cause instant death specify that they only cause instant death on an unsaved wound. And as you say you don't know if it is unsaved until you fail FNP. Even the Double Strength requires an unsaved wound to become instant death.
Completely false.
The Str double tough wound causes ID so FNP can not be taken against it. Re-read FNP P. 35.
The wound from a force weapon does not cause ID so you can take a FNP against it.
This is partly correct.
An unactivated Force Weapon does not inflict ID. However, an Activated Force Weapon does cause ID. As I have clearly shown the roll to activate the Force Weapon is made before the wound is suffered by the model. FNP cannot not be taken against a wound that inflicts ID, and FNP is not a save.
Just for clarity, a FNP roll can be made against a wound caused by a Force Weapon that either failed its force activation roll or did not have the necessary Warp Charge to activate. In this case the Force Weapons wounds do not inflict ID and FNP is taken as normal.
I hope that helped. Automatically Appended Next Post: Kangodo wrote:BLADERIKER wrote:Just for clarity a it seems there are some that are still confused, so I colored the order mixs up.
It goes:
Put Wounds in the wound Pool. (Wounds are inflicted)
Roll saves if any, if failed. (Inflicted Wound are unsaved) Player may activate Force.
Then you allocate wounds to the models (Model suffers a Wound) player may use FNP.
Back in 5th Ed, Force was dependent on whether or not the wound was suffered and not inflicted, and this was why FNP were taken before Force. In 6th Ed FNP is determined by whether or not the Weapon causes ID, which now Force activation happens before the wound is suffered and thus comes before you can take a FNP special roll.
But that's not what your big post said.
Your post literally said that: " Page 24, Top Right: Allocating Wounds. "After determining the number of Wounds Inflicted against a unit at a particular initiative step, Wounds are allocated, saves taken and casualties removed." "
1. Wounds are inflicted/counted.
2. Wounds are allocated.
3. Saves can be taken.
4. Casualties are removed.
Force should be activated immediately on the moment they are inflicted!
The only time that could happen is in step 1, thus before they are allocated and saves are taken.
Unless you are going to contradict that long post.
I see what your saying, and I thank you for pointing it out.
because the wound is unsaved when it is inflicted, and saving throws are needed to save it, the Pyschic test is then taken after you roll to wound and not after you roll to save.
Again Thank you for pointing that out.
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Post by: Kangodo
BLADERIKER wrote:I see what your saying, and I thank you for pointing it out.
because the wound is unsaved when it is inflicted, and saving throws are needed to save it, the Pyschic test is then taken after you roll to wound and not after you roll to save.
Again Thank you for pointing that out.
No problem
And yes, I think it's lame to do that.
GW should really do something about all of this.
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Post by: DeathReaper
BLADERIKER wrote: DeathReaper wrote:The wound from a force weapon does not cause ID so you can take a FNP against it.
This is partly correct.
An unactivated Force Weapon does not inflict ID. However, an Activated Force Weapon does cause ID. FNP cannot not be taken against a wound that inflicts ID, and FNP is not a save.
Just for clarity, a FNP roll can be made against a wound caused by a Force Weapon that either failed its force activation roll or did not have the necessary Warp Charge to activate. In this case the Force Weapons wounds do not inflict ID and FNP is taken as normal.
I hope that helped.
Actually Force weapons only ID if they are activated, which, at the time of the unsaved wound, they are not activated.
FNP is not a save, but we must treat the wound as saved if FNP is successful.
BLADERIKER wrote:As I have clearly shown the roll to activate the Force Weapon is made before the wound is suffered by the model.
This is completely false.
The wound is suffered after a failed armor save, and Force is used after a failed armor save as well.
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Post by: tuiman
We play it as no feel no pain, wound caused, test passed so that wound caused is an instant death wound (immediately = at the same time as the wound is caused) so therefore no feel no pain as the wound came from an instant death weapon.
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Post by: psyklone
Actually this discussion is pointless.
The Force rule states wounds get the ID rule. The ID rule states wounds caused by a weapon with this cause instant death.
Because the wound isn't a weapon, having ID has no effect.
Therefore force weapons are useless.
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Post by: Kangodo
psyklone wrote:Actually this discussion is pointless.
The Force rule states wounds get the ID rule. The ID rule states wounds caused by a weapon with this cause instant death.
Because the wound isn't a weapon, having ID has no effect.
Therefore force weapons are useless.
And the wound is caused by an attack from the weapon.
I want to direct you to the discussion of Kharn the Betrayer.
Someone was arguing that the attacks deal ID, not the weapon, so he's not immune against it!
You'll enjoy yourself there.
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Post by: copper.talos
rigeld2 wrote: And you said in 5th FNP would come first. Why are you applying Force first in 6th when the triggers have not changed whatsoever?
FNP in 5th edition would never trigger because of wounds inflicted by force weapons. Power weapons could bypass FNP back then, so this is the 1st time this issue has come up.
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Post by: rigeld2
copper.talos wrote:rigeld2 wrote: And you said in 5th FNP would come first. Why are you applying Force first in 6th when the triggers have not changed whatsoever?
FNP in 5th edition would never trigger because of wounds inflicted by force weapons. Power weapons could bypass FNP back then, so this is the 1st time this issue has come up.
That's true. That's not what his posts said. Reading in context is cool.
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Post by: megatrons2nd
DeathReaper wrote: megatrons2nd wrote:If, with the hex rifle, you are removed from play, the model no longer exists and doesn't have FNP as it is no longer in play, and thus has access to no rules.
That way breaks a rule as you must take a FNP roll against the wound.
Again multiple special rules stack, unless they are the same rule. You might not, ultimately, take the wound but all special rules still happen.
The do happen, unless we are treating the wound as saved after a successful FNP roll, then nothing can trigger off of the (now saved) wound.
Doing it your way Instant death can only happen with a select few weapons, as most of those that cause instant death specify that they only cause instant death on an unsaved wound. And as you say you don't know if it is unsaved until you fail FNP. Even the Double Strength requires an unsaved wound to become instant death.
Completely false.
The Str double tough wound causes ID so FNP can not be taken against it. Re-read FNP P. 35.
The wound from a force weapon does not cause ID so you can take a FNP against it.
Now you are applying the order the other way. Which way is it? Do you use the trigger before or after you make a FnP roll? If first than Instant death can never beat FnP because most weapons/special rules require an unsaved wound, and as you repeatedly state the wound is not unsaved until you make your FnP roll. Go ahead and reread the instant death rule for double strength weapons. It is unsaved wounds, not just causes instant death. I've read it dozens of times. Now go read the special rules bit where it tells you that multiple special rules affect the same model. Followed by the rule that allows the active player to chose the order in which special rules are applied. Your way breaks the game at least three times.
The trigger is unsaved wound, in all cases. The active player chooses the order, in all cases. You can not place an end result before the trigger, that breaks the game. Applying the fewest broken rules leaves it this way.
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Post by: BLADERIKER
DeathReaper wrote:BLADERIKER wrote: DeathReaper wrote:The wound from a force weapon does not cause ID so you can take a FNP against it.
This is partly correct.
An unactivated Force Weapon does not inflict ID. However, an Activated Force Weapon does cause ID. FNP cannot not be taken against a wound that inflicts ID, and FNP is not a save.
Just for clarity, a FNP roll can be made against a wound caused by a Force Weapon that either failed its force activation roll or did not have the necessary Warp Charge to activate. In this case the Force Weapons wounds do not inflict ID and FNP is taken as normal.
I hope that helped.
Actually Force weapons only ID if they are activated, which, at the time of the unsaved wound, they are not activated.
FNP is not a save, but we must treat the wound as saved if FNP is successful.
BLADERIKER wrote:As I have clearly shown the roll to activate the Force Weapon is made before the wound is suffered by the model.
This is completely false.
The wound is suffered after a failed armor save, and Force is used after a failed armor save as well.
The is an order to how everything is done. Very Simple Logic.
This is the wounding process as I have shown above and backed up with evidence from the BRB.
Step 1: Roll to hit. If you fail to hit the process of wounding is stopped at this step as no Hits were inflicted.
Step 2: Roll to Wound. This step is dependent on step 1. Take the number of times you hit and roll to Wound (testing Strength of the weapon verse the majority toughness/Armor Value(In the case of a Vehicle) of the target unit/Model. If you fail to cause Wound, Glance, or Pen then the Wounding process stops here. However, if a wound is caused at this step it is added to what is called a "Wound Pool" (Pg 14, Lower Right , Little Rule Book). The Wound Pool, is all the wounds that may be caused to a unit. Another way to describe this is as total wounds Inflicted before saves are taken, Or Inflicted Unsaved Wounds as they are wounds but have not or cannot be saved at this point. (Depending on the AP value of the Weapon.). "If there are Wounds with different Strengths, AP values or a special rules, keep them Separated into groups of Wounds in the pool." (Pg 14, Lower Right, Little Rule Book).
Step 3: Is dependent on Step 2. Take Saving Throws. It is at this point that a model is allowed to make one saving throw against one wound if a saving throw is possible. (See Page 16, Little Rule Book). If the save, or saves are passed the Wounding Process stops here. If they are failed then we finish the saving step and move onto the Allocating Wounds step.
Step 4: Is Dependent on Step 3. Allocating Wounds. it is at this point that wounds are Allocated to the models starting with those in base contact, or in the case of a shooting attack those closest to the shooting unit. This is Also when a Unit Suffers an unsaved wound.
Basic logic stand at this.
If you failed to hit then you did not a inflict a hit.
You cannot Wound if you failed to Hit.
If you failed to Wound then you did not Inflict a Wound.
If you Inflict a Wound you need a Saving Throw.
Why is a saving throw needed?
A saving throw is needed because you have an Inflicted Unsaved Wound.
If a saving throw cannot be taken then the Inflicted Unsaved Wound is Suffered, and becomes a Suffered Unsaved Wound.
If a saving throw can be taken then it can be failed.
If a saving throw is failed then the Inflicted Unsaved Wound is Suffered, and becomes a Suffered Unsaved Wound.
If a Saving throw is Passed then the Inflicted Unsaved Wound is Saved.
A suffered Wound will reduce the Wound Characteristic by 1.
So when is a Wound Suffered? Again Simple Logic.
A wound is suffered when the wound is applied to the model.
When is a Wound Inflicted?
After the "to Wound roll is passed"
Is a Inflicted Wound unsaved when the "to Wound roll is passed"?
Yes. As you have not yet rolled to see if the Wound is saved.
When do you roll to see if the Wound is saved?
You may make a Saving Throw to save (if you can) after all wounds have been inflicted.
Can you make a Saving throw before a wound is inflicted?
No. As you can only take a saving throw against an Inflicted wound.
So given this logic, and the exact wording of both Force and FNP from the BRB. Force rolls happens Immediately after Rolls to wound, and FNP rolls happen after Wounds are applied to the model.
In 5th Ed as I have stated in a prior post. Force activation was dependent on a Suffered Wound. FNP would allow the player to ignore a Suffered Wound as though it was saved. So in 5th Ed Force Activation Could not happen until there was an Unsaved Suffered Wound.
In 6th Ed as I stated in a prior post. A Force Weapon is now activated on a Inflicted Unsaved Wound and not on a Suffered Unsaved Wound. This means that Force Rule in 6th Ed is only dependent on whether not a wound is inflicted and not on if a wound is suffered. This will also mean that a FNP roll will depend on whether or not the Psychic test is passed to activate a Force weapon.
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Post by: rigeld2
How are you inflicting wounds that haven't been allocated?
Surely you can define inflicted using the BRB since that's what would be required for your stance.
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Post by: BLADERIKER
rigeld2 wrote:How are you inflicting wounds that haven't been allocated?
Surely you can define inflicted using the BRB since that's what would be required for your stance.
Can you allocate something that did not happen? No you can not.
For example.
1: If I fail to wound, I have failed to inflict a wound and thus can not allocate something that does not exist.
I see that I must break this down further.
2: Before I roll to hit I must select a target unit that I can legally engage in either Shooting or Assault, to Attempt to Inflict hits. As stated in my prior post if I fail to hit, I fail to inflict hits on the target unit, ergo I fail to allocate hits to the target unit. Should I inflict Hits on the target unit I can then roll to wound and Inflict wounds on the target unit, Thus allocating all the successful inflicted wounds to the target unit(Which are at this point unsaved). Then the target Unit makes saving throws against the allocated inflicted wounds(possibly saving some). After making saving throws any renaming Inflicted Unsaved Wounds are suffered and become suffered unsaved wounds.
This is Pages 12-16 and 21-26 on the Little Rule Book. Cut and dry.
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Post by: rigeld2
Besides using the word "inflict" over and over do you have any basis for saying that it happens prior to allocation?
Edit: oh, and trying to highlight using light blue just makes it essentially invisible on a white background... Which is how I read the forums because the default colors are horrible.
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Post by: megatrons2nd
rigeld2 wrote:Besides using the word "inflict" over and over do you have any basis for saying that it happens prior to allocation?
Edit: oh, and trying to highlight using light blue just makes it essentially invisible on a white background... Which is how I read the forums because the default colors are horrible.
I didn't even know you could change the background. How do you do it?
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Post by: ace101
BLADERIKER wrote: DeathReaper wrote:BLADERIKER wrote: DeathReaper wrote:The wound from a force weapon does not cause ID so you can take a FNP against it.
This is partly correct. An unactivated Force Weapon does not inflict ID. However, an Activated Force Weapon does cause ID. FNP cannot not be taken against a wound that inflicts ID, and FNP is not a save. Just for clarity, a FNP roll can be made against a wound caused by a Force Weapon that either failed its force activation roll or did not have the necessary Warp Charge to activate. In this case the Force Weapons wounds do not inflict ID and FNP is taken as normal. I hope that helped. Actually Force weapons only ID if they are activated, which, at the time of the unsaved wound, they are not activated. FNP is not a save, but we must treat the wound as saved if FNP is successful. BLADERIKER wrote:As I have clearly shown the roll to activate the Force Weapon is made before the wound is suffered by the model.
This is completely false. The wound is suffered after a failed armor save, and Force is used after a failed armor save as well.
Basic logic stand at this. If you failed to hit then you did not a inflict a hit. You cannot Wound if you failed to Hit. If you failed to Wound then you did not Inflict a Wound. If you Inflict a Wound you need a Saving Throw. Why is a saving throw needed? A saving throw is needed because you have an Inflicted *Removed* Wound. If a saving throw cannot be taken then the Inflicted Unsaved Wound is Suffered, and becomes a Suffered Unsaved Wound. If a saving throw can be taken then it can be failed. If a saving throw is failed then the Inflicted *Removed* Wound is Suffered, and becomes a Suffered Unsaved Wound. If a Saving throw is Passed then the Inflicted *Removed* Wound is Saved. A suffered Wound will reduce the Wound Characteristic by 1. So when is a Wound Suffered? Again Simple Logic. A wound is suffered when the wound is applied to the model. When is a Wound Inflicted? After the "to Wound roll is passed" Is a Inflicted Wound unsaved when the "to Wound roll is passed"? Yes. As you have not yet rolled to see if the Wound is saved. When do you roll to see if the Wound is saved? You may make a Saving Throw to save (if you can) after all wounds have been inflicted. Can you make a Saving throw before a wound is inflicted? No. As you can only take a saving throw against an Inflicted wound. So given this logic, and the exact wording of both Force and FNP from the BRB. Force rolls happens Immediately after Rolls to wound, and FNP rolls happen after Wounds are applied to the model. In 5th Ed as I have stated in a prior post. Force activation was dependent on a Suffered Wound. FNP would allow the player to ignore a Suffered *Unsaved* Wound as though it was saved. So in 5th Ed Force Activation Could not happen until there was an Suffered Unsaved Wound. In 6th Ed as I stated in a prior post. A Force Weapon is now activated on a Inflicted Unsaved Wound and not on a Suffered *Removed* Wound. This means that Force Rule in 6th Ed is only dependent on whether not a wound is inflicted and not on if a wound is suffered. This will also mean that a FNP roll will depend on whether or not the Psychic test is passed to activate a Force weapon.
You cant say a wound is unsaved if a saving throw hasn't been taken yet. If the saving throw fails, or none is possible, then it becomes unsaved, just some clarification. Also, to the OP, i think of this as, "oh i failed to save against a force weapon, oh wait, i have feel no pain, i can take this throw before it is activated, 'cause it needs an unsaved wound." The force special rule doesn't immediately confer instant death, a 6 has to be rolled first, and im sure that FnP fall imbetween that because the wound is then treated after FnP is if it was saved. If there is no wound for the Psychic test, then there is no instant death then.
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Post by: BLADERIKER
rigeld2 wrote:Besides using the word "inflict" over and over do you have any basis for saying that it happens prior to allocation?
Edit: oh, and trying to highlight using light blue just makes it essentially invisible on a white background... Which is how I read the forums because the default colors are horrible.
See page 37. Little Rule Book.
"Force: If a Psyker Inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test (see page 67).-If the test is passed, all unsaved Wounds inflicted by the force weapon that turn have the instant Death Special Rule (see Page 38)."
And Page 35. Little Rule Book.
"Feel No Pain: When a Model with this special rule suffers an unsaved wound , it can make a special Feel No Pain roll to avoid being wounded (this is not a saving throw).-Note that Feel No Pain rolls cannot be taken against unsaved Wounds that inflict Instant Death."
Question? can you suffer a wound if you were wounded in the first place?
Easier way to explain it. A model will never suffer a wound, if the wound is never inflicted/Caused. If the wound is never inflicted/caused, then there is no need to make a saving throw. If there is no need to make a saving throw then there is no wound that could be suffered in the first place. I.E. the attacking player failed to wound. or did not cause any wounds, did not inflict any wounds. no wounding happened.
Thus, to take a FNP special Roll there must have been an inflicted Wound. FNP does not avoid the wound being inflicted/caused/happening but avoids the wound being suffered.
Again. How can you suffer something if you where never inflicted by something?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ace101 Wrote
"You cant say a wound is unsaved if a saving throw hasn't been taken yet. If the saving throw fails, or none is possible, then it becomes unsaved, just some clarification.
Also, to the OP, i think of this as, "oh i failed to save against a force weapon, oh wait, i have feel no pain, i can take this throw before it is activated, 'cause it needs an unsaved wound." The force special rule doesn't immediately confer instant death, a 6 has to be rolled first, and im sure that FnP fall imbetween that because the wound is then treated after FnP is if it was saved. If there is no wound for the Psychic test, then there is no instant death then."
let us consider what you are saying. That a wound caused is not an unsaved wound until after the Saving throws are taken and failed. So is FNP a Saving throw? If yes, then it must be taken when saving throws are taken and at no other time. However, you are only allowed to make one saving throw per wound in the saving throw step(Or am I mistaken?). However, to even use FNP you must have suffered an unsaved wound (Is this correct?) Activating a Force weapon happens Immediately after inflicting an unsaved wound. So when is a wound inflicted? Is a wound inflicted only after a save is made? No. you have to have a wound to make a save, meaning that a wound was caused/inflicted prior to the saving throw being made. As a saving throw is not made against a wound that is never caused/inflicted (or am I wrong?). When does a Force weapon inflict a wound? When the the controlling player rolls to wound and Wounds. So has the Force weapon caused/Inflicted a wound at this point. Yes. Has the wound been saved for yet? No. So when is a wound inflicted and unsaved, but not suffered. Right after the the saving throw is failed if a saving throw can be made at all. When do you activate a Force Weapon? Immediately after an unsaved wound is caused/inflicted. When is this? At the very end of the Saving throw Step. When can a FNP roll be taken? After a Model with the FNP rule suffers an unsaved Wound. When does a model suffer a wound? After the saving throw Step in the Allocating wounds and removing Models step.
meaning that The roll for Force Weapon activation happens before the wounds are applied to the models, thus possibly making the Unsaved wounds from the Force Weapon ID and negating FNP.
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Post by: Red Comet
First of all look at wounding under the shooting phase section. It specifically refers to wounds you have inflicted onto the enemy as wounds.
Then look to see that it refers to unsaved wounds specifically after you take saves.
Now look at FNP.
FNP happens when you have an unsaved wound.
Force also happens when you have an unsaved wound.
An unsaved wound occurs after you making your save, but before FNP.
Force and FNP occur at the same time. This probably means you roll off to see which effect takes precedence when to be honest it should just be that force weapons go off and deny FNP IMO.
Edit: Force says the Psyker immediately chooses. FNP does not. I'd say Force actually does happen before FNP.
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Post by: BLADERIKER
Red Comet wrote:
First of all look at wounding under the shooting phase section. It specifically refers to wounds you have inflicted onto the enemy as wounds.
Then look to see that it refers to unsaved wounds specifically after you take saves.
Now look at FNP.
FNP happens when you have an unsaved wound.
Force also happens when you have an unsaved wound.
An unsaved wound occurs after you making your save, but before FNP.
Force and FNP occur at the same time. This probably means you roll off to see which effect takes precedence when to be honest it should just be that force weapons go off and deny FNP IMO.
Edit: Force says the Psyker immediately chooses. FNP does not. I'd say Force actually does happen before FNP.
And that is what I have been trying to express  . One happens Immediately after, and one just happens after.
Also Your Avatar is cool
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Post by: azazel the cat
My two cents:
If a Force Weapon activates, then FNP does not take effect because ID is caused.
If a Force Weapon is not activated, then FNP does take effect because ID is not caused.
Nice and balanced.
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Post by: DeathReaper
BLADERIKER wrote: Red Comet wrote: First of all look at wounding under the shooting phase section. It specifically refers to wounds you have inflicted onto the enemy as wounds. Then look to see that it refers to unsaved wounds specifically after you take saves. Now look at FNP. FNP happens when you have an unsaved wound. Force also happens when you have an unsaved wound. An unsaved wound occurs after you making your save, but before FNP. Force and FNP occur at the same time. This probably means you roll off to see which effect takes precedence when to be honest it should just be that force weapons go off and deny FNP IMO. Edit: Force says the Psyker immediately chooses. FNP does not. I'd say Force actually does happen before FNP. And that is what I have been trying to express  . One happens Immediately after, and one just happens after. Also Your Avatar is cool FNP says "When a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved Wound" P. 35 So you are told to take FNP when the unsaved wound is suffered. Which is when the armor save is failed. FNP goes first because if you put FNP second you break mechanics like Hexrifle and Entropic Strike. We should apply the rules in a consistent manner and break no rule. Applying FNP second breaks rules while applying it first breaks none.
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Post by: Kangodo
DeathReaper wrote:
FNP says "When a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved Wound" P. 35
So you are told to take FNP when the unsaved wound is suffered.
Which is when the armor save is failed.
FNP goes first because if you put FNP second you break mechanics like Hexrifle and Entropic Strike.
We should apply the rules in a consistent manner and break no rule.
Applying FNP second breaks rules while applying it first breaks none.
Even though I disagree and have been arguing that FnP goes first, his argument was unbeatable and I have to agree.
The problem is that RAW it goes like this:
1. Wound inflicted.
2. Saves are made.
3. Wound is suffered.
Like it or not, that's exactly what the BRB says.
And while FnP should/can be activated in phase 3, Force Weapons can only be activated in phase 1.
This means two things:
a) Force is activated two steps before FnP, thus wins over FnP.
b) Force is also activated before saves. That means that against a 2+ save, the Psyker is forced (haha, pun!) to activate his weapon before even knowing if it will actually do stuff.
Bearer of Force Weapons usually aren't really known for their gigantic number of attacks, so how hard is it to roll three 2+'s and laugh at him?
Your argument about "breaking" stuff would be a good one if FnP and Force-activation happened at the same time.
And even tho I thought they did, they don't as he has proven in one of his long posts.
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Post by: copper.talos
DeathReaper wrote:
FNP goes first because if you put FNP second you break mechanics like Hexrifle and Entropic Strike.
Not true. Both can be used with no problem at the same time as FNP, without breaking any mechanics.
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Post by: rigeld2
copper.talos wrote: DeathReaper wrote:
FNP goes first because if you put FNP second you break mechanics like Hexrifle and Entropic Strike.
Not true. Both can be used with no problem at the same time as FNP, without breaking any mechanics.
If you apply ES and then pass your FNP roll, are you treating the wound as saved?
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Post by: quack98
I asked a GW manager this a few weeks ago, and he said you'd get FnP
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Post by: copper.talos
Yes I do. In the end the model doesn't lose a wound. It "felt no pain" but it lost its armour in the process. It doesn't "break" any mechanics, no division by zero and the game can continue.
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Post by: liturgies of blood
quack98 wrote:I asked a GW manager this a few weeks ago, and he said you'd get FnP
My mom said I'm cool....
Seriously GW don't always play the rules as the perfect version of the rules.
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Post by: quack98
^Yes, but GW did write the rules, and as for 'my mom said I'm cool' I was asking him this in a game, and merely brought it as it was related to the topic and also the correct spelling is mum, as the English spelling of an English word in the English language is the correct spelling.
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Post by: rigeld2
copper.talos wrote:Yes I do. In the end the model doesn't lose a wound. It "felt no pain" but it lost its armour in the process. It doesn't "break" any mechanics, no division by zero and the game can continue.
If you force it to lost its armor are you treating the wound as saved?
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Post by: liturgies of blood
quack98 wrote:^Yes, but GW did write the rules, and as for 'my mom said I'm cool' I was asking him this in a game, and merely brought it as it was related to the topic and also the correct spelling is mum, as the English spelling of an English word in the English language is the correct spelling.
GW has many levels of organisation between the game design team and the dude you talked to. The worth of anecdotes in any debate is very low.
The quote is from an American tv show. American spelling, American English, good try.
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Post by: quack98
^I know GW has many levels of organisation, as do most businesses, but as for the worth of anecdotes, you cannot set a single standard. Also when I asked the question everyone (about 20ish people) said it was obviously meant to be given.
As for it being an American TV show, American English is basically a simplified version of English (no disrespect meant) as its older English, that has progressed little in comparison due to poor links between U.S. and U.K. Throughout the 18th century, but as we're using any language
До Свидания
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Post by: liturgies of blood
There is a single standard in YMDC, it is that there is no weight associated to ringing gw or talking to the guys in store. The reason is that it is subjective and 2nd hand at best. The written GW products and FAQ's are the only word that matters.
Actually that is not how American English really came about. There was a concerted effort to create a separate language in as much as possible from British English.
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Post by: copper.talos
rigeld2 wrote:If you force it to lost its armor are you treating the wound as saved?
No model is forced to lose the save. It's what happens normally when you get an unsaved wound with ES. So ES mechanic -> OK.
And in the end the model didn't lose a wound so FNP mechanic -> OK.
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Post by: quack98
^^if only the GW materials words matter then why are we posting words
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Post by: rigeld2
copper.talos wrote:rigeld2 wrote:If you force it to lost its armor are you treating the wound as saved?
No model is forced to lose the save. It's what happens normally when you get an unsaved wound with ES. So ES mechanic -> OK.
And in the end the model didn't lose a wound so FNP mechanic -> OK.
Does FNP say it only ignores the wound, or does it require you to treat the wound as saved?
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Post by: copper.talos
It doesn't actually matter for this debate.
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Post by: alex567
rigeld2 wrote:copper.talos wrote:rigeld2 wrote:If you force it to lost its armor are you treating the wound as saved?
No model is forced to lose the save. It's what happens normally when you get an unsaved wound with ES. So ES mechanic -> OK.
And in the end the model didn't lose a wound so FNP mechanic -> OK.
Does FNP say it only ignores the wound, or does it require you to treat the wound as saved?
Entropic strike happens when a model sufferes an unsaved wound, then after that you take a feel no pain save, and if it is saved entropic strike still took place when a model suffered an unsaved wound, but the wound has become saved. example 1 my commander confers furious charge onto his unit when he is alive, does this mean he never confers furious charge cause at some point he will not be alive? the same with entropic strike and feel no pain, the wound is not always unsaved, just as the wound is not always a wound sometimes it is just a hit, so multiple rules can inflict and DO work they just seem silly.
The same with leach life, just because the rule seems silly does not mean it is broken, oh my model has regained wounds but your model has passed feel no pain, at the time of leaching the wound was unsaved, but it has become saved. The logic is intolerable but the wording is infallible.
Logic =/= RAW
Logic == RAI
I agree that a wound is unsaved at the point you have inflicted it as previously mentioned. If an unsaved wound has been inflicted only after a save is made, how does a model with no save suffer an unsaved wound? I believe a wound is unsaved before a save roll is made at the time when you can choose to psychic their ass.
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Post by: AndrewC
A quick opinion question for you, if I hit a FnP unit 3 times at the same initiative step with a force weapon, inflicting 3 wounds, of which only two are saved with FnP and I then activate force off of the third, how many models are removed? 1 or 3?
Cheers
Andrew
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Post by: rigeld2
It absolutely matters. Your refusal to answer is taken as you conceding the point. Automatically Appended Next Post: alex567 wrote: The same with leach life, just because the rule seems silly does not mean it is broken, oh my model has regained wounds but your model has passed feel no pain, at the time of leaching the wound was unsaved, but it has become saved. The logic is intolerable but the wording is infallible.
I'm not arguing because it seems silly. I'm arguing because the rules don't agree with you.
If you allow a gained wound or remove an armor save you are not (by definition) treating the wound as saved.
FNP requires you to treat the wound as saved. Therefore you have broken a rule. Automatically Appended Next Post: AndrewC wrote:A quick opinion question for you, if I hit a FnP unit 3 times at the same initiative step with a force weapon, inflicting 3 wounds, of which only two are saved with FnP and I then activate force off of the third, how many models are removed? 1 or 3?
Cheers
Andrew
1. The others are treated as saved.
59502
Post by: phatonic
is this thread still goin on?...
it's F'ing simple
Only thing that ignores FNP is double str of the model's toughness or special rules (AP does not take this away)
You can toss your FNP against anything but the said above.
After you get wounded
As for instance a ork nob get shot by a lascannon str 9 the ork being T4 only thing allowed here would be the Cover save(unless he got a inv save) not a fnp
the only way the nob would get fnp out of this is IF he was a on a bike giving him a Toughness 5 and the str 9 is no longer the double thus he only takes one wound and gets his FNP
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Post by: Kangodo
quack98 wrote:^^if only the GW materials words matter then why are we posting words
Because we want to analyze the words written by official GW-material to solve weird issues like this.
quack98 wrote:^I know GW has many levels of organisation, as do most businesses, but as for the worth of anecdotes, you cannot set a single standard. Also when I asked the question everyone (about 20ish people) said it was obviously meant to be given.
I understand that it might be enough for your playgroup, since you were probably all there.
But even the rules in this forum state: "2. The only official sources of information are the current rulebooks and the Games Workshop FAQs. Emails from Askyourquestion@games-workshop.com are technically official, but they are easily spoofed and should not be relied on."
What some GW-manager said is not an official source.
Because if that was really the GW-stance on this matter, they could and should reflect that in a FAQ.
That's also why I think they should have a more interactive FAQ!
Instead of bringing out a big edit every few months, they should update their website more frequently with small additions.
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Post by: quack98
^ I understand its not an official source, I was just stating it as a fact, that may or may not have changed the course of the argument.
I agree that they should update the FAQ more frequently, because there are so many flaws in the game, and a lot of the time the FAQ either doesn't make sense, or is just stupid (like getting rid of tau target lock for a month or so and then bringing it back)
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Post by: megatrons2nd
quack98 wrote:I asked a GW manager this a few weeks ago, and he said you'd get FnP
I have called multiple times to ask the same question. I have to date received 4 different responses from GW staff, the rules guys even. If they can't give a consistent answer, a random GW shop supervisor isn't likely to get it right either.
phatonic wrote:is this thread still goin on?...
it's F'ing simple
Only thing that ignores FNP is double str of the model's toughness or special rules (AP does not take this away)
You can toss your FNP against anything but the said above.
After you get wounded
As for instance a ork nob get shot by a lascannon str 9 the ork being T4 only thing allowed here would be the Cover save(unless he got a inv save) not a fnp
the only way the nob would get fnp out of this is IF he was a on a bike giving him a Toughness 5 and the str 9 is no longer the double thus he only takes one wound and gets his FNP
Using that interpretation, Double strength does not bypass FnP as it requires the wound to be unsaved, and you don't know if it is unsaved until you fail FnP, just like taking those tests. It is written the same as most of the wargear that has the Instant death special rule attached to it.
It is simple. Two special rules are triggered at the same time. The Active player decides the order in which they are resolved. This will lead to some oddities, but is as written in the rulebook. The interpretations both break 1 rule. So using the least amount of broken rules leave no winner. Oh I almost forgot, your way also breaks the multiple special rules affecting the same model, and taking FnP against an instant death weapon. Making your way break 3 rules.
As a "cinematic" edition, The sudden shock as a model is turned to glass(from the hexrifles fluff) and being removed from play after he shrugged off the wound makes a lot of sense.
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Post by: phatonic
megatrons2nd wrote:quack98 wrote:I asked a GW manager this a few weeks ago, and he said you'd get FnP I have called multiple times to ask the same question. I have to date received 4 different responses from GW staff, the rules guys even. If they can't give a consistent answer, a random GW shop supervisor isn't likely to get it right either. phatonic wrote:is this thread still goin on?... it's F'ing simple Only thing that ignores FNP is double str of the model's toughness or special rules (AP does not take this away) You can toss your FNP against anything but the said above. After you get wounded As for instance a ork nob get shot by a lascannon str 9 the ork being T4 only thing allowed here would be the Cover save(unless he got a inv save) not a fnp the only way the nob would get fnp out of this is IF he was a on a bike giving him a Toughness 5 and the str 9 is no longer the double thus he only takes one wound and gets his FNP Using that interpretation, Double strength does not bypass FnP as it requires the wound to be unsaved, and you don't know if it is unsaved until you fail FnP, just like taking those tests. It is written the same as most of the wargear that has the Instant death special rule attached to it. It is simple. Two special rules are triggered at the same time. The Active player decides the order in which they are resolved. This will lead to some oddities, but is as written in the rulebook. The interpretations both break 1 rule. So using the least amount of broken rules leave no winner. Oh I almost forgot, your way also breaks the multiple special rules affecting the same model, and taking FnP against an instant death weapon. Making your way break 3 rules. As a "cinematic" edition, The sudden shock as a model is turned to glass(from the hexrifles fluff) and being removed from play after he shrugged off the wound makes a lot of sense. FNP: when a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved wound it can make a special feel no pain roll (THIS IS NOT A SAVING THROW) page 35. aka as the instant death said if a model suffers an unsaved wound from double it's toughness value it's reduced to 0 wounds page 16. From the FAQ: http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2590005a_40K_RULEBOOK_v1a.pdf Q: Can Feel No Pain rolls be made against unsaved Wounds inflicted by weapons that have the Instant Death special rule? (p35) A: No. Good night sir. and with that i also say /thread
50763
Post by: copper.talos
rigeld2 wrote:
It absolutely matters. Your refusal to answer is taken as you conceding the point.
Erm who is conceding? I know fully well the differences between 5th and 6th. And ignored/treated as saved doesn't matter regarding ES. All the mechanics of ES and FNP can be resolved without a problem at the same time.
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Post by: rigeld2
copper.talos wrote:rigeld2 wrote:
It absolutely matters. Your refusal to answer is taken as you conceding the point.
Erm who is conceding? I know fully well the differences between 5th and 6th. And ignored/treated as saved doesn't matter regarding ES. All the mechanics of ES and FNP can be resolved without a problem at the same time.
It absolutely matters.
If you apply ES you've applied something as the result of an unsaved wound.
Passing FNP requires you to treat a wound as saved.
Meaning applying ES would break a rule.
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Post by: XT-1984
Psyker Hits, Psyker Wounds, Psykers Target either fails its save or doesn't get one.
Unsaved Wound has been caused! Take a Psychic Test...
Passed - Instant Death! Feel No Pain save may not be taken.
Failed - Unsaved Wound caused, you may take your Feel No Pain.
Simple. Don't know why this needed eight pages.
66727
Post by: OIIIIIIO
I look at it like this:
If a weapon has ID already attached to it (via double toughness) then FNP is not admissable.
If a weapon has the potential to inflict ID (force weapon) but its is not attached to said wound at the time the wound is inflicted, then you are TFG if you do not give your opponent the opportunity to save his model.
The wound did not have ID attached to it and can only be attached if said wound's save is failed. Since ID is not attached to the wound until after the saving throw is failed, FNP says that you make another check, and if passed treat the failed save as saved. If FNP is failed then you can feel free to make your Psyker test and ID all day long.
I believe that the intention is to give the model or models every chance to stay alive.
This is how we play it and the rules, as the group that I play with, understand them. The FAQ may change that in the future ..... or it may not. I do not know as none of us are writers for GW. We just play the game by their rules.
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Post by: DeathReaper
AndrewC wrote:A quick opinion question for you, if I hit a FnP unit 3 times at the same initiative step with a force weapon, inflicting 3 wounds, of which only two are saved with FnP and I then activate force off of the third, how many models are removed? 1 or 3?
Cheers
Andrew
one model dies, as you only have one unsaved wound. the other two are saved wounds.
47462
Post by: rigeld2
XT-1984 wrote:Psyker Hits, Psyker Wounds, Psykers Target either fails its save or doesn't get one.
Unsaved Wound has been caused! Take a Psychic Test...
Passed - Instant Death! No Feel No Pain save may be taken.
Failed - Unsaved Wound caused, you may take your Feel No Pain.
Simple. Don't know why this needed eight pages.
Perhaps if you'd read the 8 pages instead of assuming we're all simpletons, the idea wouldn't escape you.
21002
Post by: megatrons2nd
phatonic wrote: megatrons2nd wrote:quack98 wrote:I asked a GW manager this a few weeks ago, and he said you'd get FnP
I have called multiple times to ask the same question. I have to date received 4 different responses from GW staff, the rules guys even. If they can't give a consistent answer, a random GW shop supervisor isn't likely to get it right either.
phatonic wrote:is this thread still goin on?...
it's F'ing simple
Only thing that ignores FNP is double str of the model's toughness or special rules (AP does not take this away)
You can toss your FNP against anything but the said above.
After you get wounded
As for instance a ork nob get shot by a lascannon str 9 the ork being T4 only thing allowed here would be the Cover save(unless he got a inv save) not a fnp
the only way the nob would get fnp out of this is IF he was a on a bike giving him a Toughness 5 and the str 9 is no longer the double thus he only takes one wound and gets his FNP
Using that interpretation, Double strength does not bypass FnP as it requires the wound to be unsaved, and you don't know if it is unsaved until you fail FnP, just like taking those tests. It is written the same as most of the wargear that has the Instant death special rule attached to it.
It is simple. Two special rules are triggered at the same time. The Active player decides the order in which they are resolved. This will lead to some oddities, but is as written in the rulebook. The interpretations both break 1 rule. So using the least amount of broken rules leave no winner. Oh I almost forgot, your way also breaks the multiple special rules affecting the same model, and taking FnP against an instant death weapon. Making your way break 3 rules.
As a "cinematic" edition, The sudden shock as a model is turned to glass(from the hexrifles fluff) and being removed from play after he shrugged off the wound makes a lot of sense.
FNP: when a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved wound it can make a special feel no pain roll (THIS IS NOT A SAVING THROW)
page 35.
aka as the instant death said if a model suffers an unsaved wound from double it's toughness value it's reduced to 0 wounds page 16.
From the FAQ: http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2590005a_40K_RULEBOOK_v1a.pdf
Q: Can Feel No Pain rolls be made against unsaved Wounds
inflicted by weapons that have the Instant Death special rule? (p35)
A: No.
Good night sir. and with that i also say /thread
That is the point. FnP is not allowed as long as the weapon/model has the rule. Meaning you may not use it even if it requires a trigger to activate. The proponents for taking FnP against Force, and other take a test or suffer Instant Death keep saying that you don't know if it is unsaved until they fail their FnP roll. As such it using that interpretation then it would be as I stated in what you quoted. They refuse to acknowledge that they are using the rule( FnP) to circumvent other rules; Instant Death, and the Active player choosing the order in which rules are resolved. They are arguing that it always goes first because you don't know if it is unsaved until they fail FnP, which would leave the Instant death rule pointless as most of the weapons/models, even the double strength rule, requires an unsaved wound.
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Post by: XT-1984
rigeld2 wrote: XT-1984 wrote:Psyker Hits, Psyker Wounds, Psykers Target either fails its save or doesn't get one.
Unsaved Wound has been caused! Take a Psychic Test...
Passed - Instant Death! No Feel No Pain save may be taken.
Failed - Unsaved Wound caused, you may take your Feel No Pain.
Simple. Don't know why this needed eight pages.
Perhaps if you'd read the 8 pages instead of assuming we're all simpletons, the idea wouldn't escape you.
Not simpletons, just unnecessarily argumentative over something very clearly written.
21002
Post by: megatrons2nd
DeathReaper wrote: AndrewC wrote:A quick opinion question for you, if I hit a FnP unit 3 times at the same initiative step with a force weapon, inflicting 3 wounds, of which only two are saved with FnP and I then activate force off of the third, how many models are removed? 1 or 3?
Cheers
Andrew
one model dies, as you only have one unsaved wound. the other two are saved wounds.
But all attacks by that model/unit have Instant death. You now broke the FNP rule.
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Post by: phatonic
Might have missread what you said first, but as you mentiond that removed from play thingie that is a whole nother story removed from play is removed from play even if you are a eternal warrior :3 and yes.. double str of ur T will not allow you to take that fnp save as said. (even if you are a eternal warrior stated in the faq but you will only take one wound per unsaved wound) it's up to the saving throw to decide if you live or not. Not the FNP
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Post by: XT-1984
Also the Force Weapon is activated 'immediately' after an Unsaved Wound is caused. Feel No Pain uses no such terminology, it only says that a model that suffers an unsaved Wound may take an additional save.
If Feel No Pain said "immediately after suffering an unsaved wound" you would have a point. But it doesn't.
21002
Post by: megatrons2nd
OIIIIIIO wrote:I look at it like this:
If a weapon has ID already attached to it (via double toughness) then FNP is not admissable.
If a weapon has the potential to inflict ID (force weapon) but its is not attached to said wound at the time the wound is inflicted, then you are TFG if you do not give your opponent the opportunity to save his model.
The wound did not have ID attached to it and can only be attached if said wound's save is failed. Since ID is not attached to the wound until after the saving throw is failed, FNP says that you make another check, and if passed treat the failed save as saved. If FNP is failed then you can feel free to make your Psyker test and ID all day long.
I believe that the intention is to give the model or models every chance to stay alive.
This is how we play it and the rules, as the group that I play with, understand them. The FAQ may change that in the future ..... or it may not. I do not know as none of us are writers for GW. We just play the game by their rules.
The rule is attached to it at the time of the attack, it just requires a further trigger. FnP says you make a roll for an unsaved wound, as does the triggers for some instant death weapons. It has the rule, you are placing emphasis on a rule over other rules when both have had a satisfactory trigger to begin the rule. By the FAQ simply having the rule on the weapon/model dissallows the use of FNP as they did not state "activated" Instant death, they just said has the instant death rule.
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Post by: DeathReaper
megatrons2nd wrote: DeathReaper wrote: AndrewC wrote:A quick opinion question for you, if I hit a FnP unit 3 times at the same initiative step with a force weapon, inflicting 3 wounds, of which only two are saved with FnP and I then activate force off of the third, how many models are removed? 1 or 3?
Cheers
Andrew
one model dies, as you only have one unsaved wound. the other two are saved wounds.
But all attacks by that model/unit have Instant death. You now broke the FNP rule.
Why, you have 1 unsaved wound,
The other two were saved.
21002
Post by: megatrons2nd
DeathReaper wrote: megatrons2nd wrote: DeathReaper wrote: AndrewC wrote:A quick opinion question for you, if I hit a FnP unit 3 times at the same initiative step with a force weapon, inflicting 3 wounds, of which only two are saved with FnP and I then activate force off of the third, how many models are removed? 1 or 3?
Cheers
Andrew
one model dies, as you only have one unsaved wound. the other two are saved wounds.
But all attacks by that model/unit have Instant death. You now broke the FNP rule.
Why, you have 1 unsaved wound,
The other two were saved.
Because all attacks that turn have the instant death rule. The whole turn, the ones you passed illegally having used FnP against an instant death weapon, and the one you originally failed.
Note it does say all attacks that turn, not all further wounds that turn.
59502
Post by: phatonic
What the guy above said ^
18375
Post by: AndrewC
Another thing I would like to point out is the terminology of the two abilities,
Force requires an unsaved would to be inflicted, FnP requires the unsaved wound to be suffered. Now, I can only find this on one page (P25 top right para) and GW has drawn a 'timeline' in which inflicted seems to be delineated to be before suffered.
I know this is not very tangible evidence, but I would ask you all which come first, inflicted or suffered?
Cheers
Andrew
48009
Post by: XT-1984
Well the Force universal special rule states you take your Psychic test 'immediately' after causing an Unsaved Wound. Whereas Feel No Pain doesn't.
31450
Post by: DeathReaper
megatrons2nd wrote:Because all attacks that turn have the instant death rule. The whole turn, the ones you passed illegally having used FnP against an instant death weapon, and the one you originally failed. Note it does say all attacks that turn, not all further wounds that turn.
And you still only have 1 unsaved wound, the other two were saved. The two you used FNP on did not have the ID rule at the time of FNP, so no rules were broken. This is because nothing tells you to go back and look at the saved wounds. FNP itself is a paradox, as it treats unsaved wounds as save therefore negating the need or ability to take FNP on that wound in the first place. Luckily nothing tells us to re-assess if we could have taken FNP, just what wounds we can use FNP on. XT-1984 wrote:Well the Force universal special rule states you take your Psychic test 'immediately' after causing an Unsaved Wound. Whereas Feel No Pain doesn't.
Please read the whole thread, this has been covered a few pages back. FNP has wording that makes it happen when an unsaved wound is suffered, which would be at the exact time of a failed save, so it does not need the word immediately, the FNP language covers the timing, which is immediate.
18375
Post by: AndrewC
DeathReaper wrote: megatrons2nd wrote:Because all attacks that turn have the instant death rule. The whole turn, the ones you passed illegally having used FnP against an instant death weapon, and the one you originally failed. Note it does say all attacks that turn, not all further wounds that turn.
And you still only have 1 unsaved wound, the other two were saved. The two you used FNP on did not have the ID rule at the time of FNP, so no rules were broken. This is because nothing tells you to go back and look at the saved wounds. However, you may have fast rolled them in which case which save did you fail? The first or last? In which case you never should have made the other two if it was the first save that failed. Force rule also, as pointed out elsewhere, applies to all attacks that turn. An since all attacks were made at the same initiative step and are considered simultaneous, how can only one attack be considered ID? Cheers Andrew PS Re the timing, which comes first inflicted or suffered?
46128
Post by: Happyjew
So when is an unsaved wound suffered/inflicted, before our after you remove 1 Wound from the profile?
47462
Post by: rigeld2
AndrewC wrote: DeathReaper wrote: megatrons2nd wrote:Because all attacks that turn have the instant death rule. The whole turn, the ones you passed illegally having used FnP against an instant death weapon, and the one you originally failed.
Note it does say all attacks that turn, not all further wounds that turn.
And you still only have 1 unsaved wound, the other two were saved.
The two you used FNP on did not have the ID rule at the time of FNP, so no rules were broken. This is because nothing tells you to go back and look at the saved wounds.
However, you may have fast rolled them in which case which save did you fail? The first or last? In which case you never should have made the other two if it was the first save that failed. Force rule also, as pointed out elsewhere, applies to all attacks that turn. An since all attacks were made at the same initiative step and are considered simultaneous, how can only one attack be considered ID?
Cheers
Andrew
PS Re the timing, which comes first inflicted or suffered?
Page 35 – Special Rules, Feel No Pain.
Add the following paragraph “If one or more models in a unit have the Feel No Pain special rule then the Mixed Saves method of Wound allocation should always be used for allocating Wounds and removing casualties from that unit; Feel No Pain rolls should be individually made after each failed save.”
You can't fast roll - you must make the tests individually after each failed save.
66089
Post by: Kangodo
Seriously people! Read the thread before posting.
It's page 8 and I see people coming with arguments and questions that were already answered in page 4 or 5!
AndrewC wrote:PS Re the timing, which comes first inflicted or suffered?
As has been proven a few pages ago, the "inflicted".
"inflicted" even happens before Saving Throws.
If you want to read it yourself: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/150/499195.page#5166354
The important line would be: "After determining the number of Wounds Inflicted against a unit at a particular initiative step, Wounds are allocated, saves taken and casualties removed."
That line, combined with a few others, lead to:
1) Wound inflicted.
2) Saving Throws
3) Wound suffered.
So the answer to this topic is:
1) Force activation.
2) Saving Throws.
3) Feel no Pain.
18375
Post by: AndrewC
rigeld2 wrote:
Page 35 – Special Rules, Feel No Pain.
Add the following paragraph “If one or more models in a unit have the Feel No Pain special rule then the Mixed Saves method of Wound allocation should always be used for allocating Wounds and removing casualties from that unit; Feel No Pain rolls should be individually made after each failed save.”
You can't fast roll - you must make the tests individually after each failed save.
Okay I missed that, point conceded. How about my other question which comes first, suffered or inflicted?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kangodo wrote:
As has been proven a few pages ago, the "inflicted".
"inflicted" even happens before Saving Throws.
However that refers to wounds and not unsaved wounds(as, no doubt, will be pointed out by Rigeld and DeathLeaper), and no I don't believe that it has been proven and accepted by both sides of this argument, or if it has, please point it out to me?
Cheers
Andrew
21002
Post by: megatrons2nd
DeathReaper wrote: megatrons2nd wrote:Because all attacks that turn have the instant death rule. The whole turn, the ones you passed illegally having used FnP against an instant death weapon, and the one you originally failed.
Note it does say all attacks that turn, not all further wounds that turn.
And you still only have 1 unsaved wound, the other two were saved.
The two you used FNP on did not have the ID rule at the time of FNP, so no rules were broken. This is because nothing tells you to go back and look at the saved wounds.
FNP itself is a paradox, as it treats unsaved wounds as save therefore negating the need or ability to take FNP on that wound in the first place.
Luckily nothing tells us to re-assess if we could have taken FNP, just what wounds we can use FNP on.
XT-1984 wrote:Well the Force universal special rule states you take your Psychic test 'immediately' after causing an Unsaved Wound. Whereas Feel No Pain doesn't.
Please read the whole thread, this has been covered a few pages back. FNP has wording that makes it happen when an unsaved wound is suffered, which would be at the exact time of a failed save, so it does not need the word immediately, the FNP language covers the timing, which is immediate.
Um, yes it did. The rule is present. It might not have been active, but it is there. As per GW if the weapon/attack has the rule FnP may not be used. As written in their FAQ.
31450
Post by: DeathReaper
If Force is not active the ID rule is not there. Did the three wounds cause ID? (No, then FNP can be taken) 2 passed, and those are now saved wounds. so we only have 1 unsaved wound at this point.
21002
Post by: megatrons2nd
You still miss the point. All attacks on the turn Force is activated, at that initiative step have Instant Death. Even the two that you took a FNP against. The paradox is in your head. FnP is still subject to the rule stating that the active player chooses the order in which two or more special rules are resolved. Not FNP always goes first. It is entirely within the scope of the rules to lose your armor, but not be removed as a casualty, or be removed from play removing you FNP rule as the model no longer exists in the game, or even heal itself when the target doesn't die. That is what the exceptional rule was put there for. Remember you are only treating it as saved, it is not saved.
31450
Post by: DeathReaper
megatrons2nd wrote:You still miss the point. All attacks on the turn Force is activated, at that initiative step have Instant Death. Even the two that you took a FNP against.
I got the point, but it is a non issue. Rolling FNP was legal at the time you rolled FNP.
The paradox is in your head.
So FNP does not remove the condition to take FNP in the first place?
The Paradox is real.
FnP is still subject to the rule stating that the active player chooses the order in which two or more special rules are resolved. Not FNP always goes first. It is entirely within the scope of the rules to lose your armor, but not be removed as a casualty, or be removed from play removing you FNP rule as the model no longer exists in the game, or even heal itself when the target doesn't die. That is what the exceptional rule was put there for. Remember you are only treating it as saved, it is not saved.
Treat as save = saved wound.
The instant an unsaved wound happens you are allowed a FNP roll. If you do not take that roll because hexrifle removal, you have broken the FNP rule that says you get to take a FNP roll.
21002
Post by: megatrons2nd
Treat as saved=saved
You now broke the hexrifle as no saves of any kind may be used against it's ability.
The paradox is created by you
The rules both happen at the same time, the instant you take an unsaved wound. Nothing is broken as when two rules occur at the same time the active player chooses the order in which they resolve. My turn I activate the Hexrifle/force ability and succeed your FNP doesn't work as the one disallows any save to be taken and the other is instant death. No rule is broken as both special rules disallow the use of FNP one with no saves of any kind(which would include treat as saved by your words), and the other as it is active Instant death. Your turn it would work as you describe.
Any other interpretation would lead to having to take FNP before instant death as most instant death weapons, and the double strength rule both require an unsaved wound, and you don't know if it is unsaved until you make your FNP roll.
68355
Post by: easysauce
again people think its ok to break the special rules regarding wounds that inflict Instant death
lets use the strict words out of the BRB,
because working on the premise that inflict = suffered is just that, a premise, not RAW
my RAW is that inflict = inflict, and suffered = suffered
You only, EVER, get one saving throw. FNP is not a saving throw, even if it IS saved, after unsaved wounds have been inflicted and when suffered, its still not a saving throw, so that may not be your RAI but it is the RAW. show me where it says you get to take more then one saving throw.
After failing your one saving throw you have unsaved wounds to deal with, that may inflict special rules in addition to their wounds. The wound has special rules, that are applied to a model, model has FNP whch unless stated otherwise is immune to the wound and its special rules (on a 5+). The only exception and is the instant death rule, not ES, not LL , ect ect,
in the rules of FNP pg 35 BRB "note that feel no pain rolls cannot be made against unsaved wounds that inflict Instant Death"
so the attacking model rolls to hit, rolls to wound, the defending model rolls to save that wound, then fails, now the attacking model has inflicted an unsaved wound + any special rules associated with that unsaved wound,
then defending model then suffers the unsaved wound and any special rules associated with that wound. if the defending model has FNP it gets a bonus roll, that is not a save, that can negate all wounds that do not have the instant death Special rule, so they and their special rules, are "treated as saved" IE nothing bad happens after all (this is why ES and so on are not broken, their special rules DO go away because their wound went away, because it does not inflict instant death. But It specifically does not get this roll against pg 35 BRB "note that feel no pain rolls cannot be made against unsaved wounds that inflict Instant Death", other special rules may need a FAQ, that is another thread entirely. but not instant death.
pg 36 BRB force "If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved wounds with a force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a warp charge point and taking a psychic test (see pg 67), if the test is failed, or the bearer has no warp charge points to spend then there is no additional effect. if the test is passed, all unsaved wounds inflicted by the force weapon that turn have the instant death special rule (see pg 38) deny the witch rolls cannot be taken by force weapons."
now lets go over feel no pain pg 35 BRB "when a model with this special rules suffers an unsaved wound, it can make a special feel no pain roll to avoid being wounded (this is not a saving throw). rol a D6 for each time an unsaved wound is suffered.. On a 4 or less, you must take the Wound as normal. On the 5+, the unsaved wound is discounted - treat it as having been saved.
Note that feel not pain rolls cannot be made against unsaved wounds that inflict instant death"
even in the rules for FNP it explicitly makes that possessive distinction between an inflicted wound and a suffered wound.
the attacking model is in the process of inflicting, the defending model the process of suffering, of the wounds.
the attacking models special rules, like force, apply to it inflicting those wounds, not to your model suffering those wounds
cant suffer wounds, that were not inflicted, and part of that attackers process of inflicting wounds is applying special rules to them.
63280
Post by: overlordweasel
so basically, its one of those " MSS versus challenges" type questions; where two abilities effect each other in some way but trigger at the same time. If that's the case it's up to the controlling player to decide the order of events. If its your turn, you can chose to take your FNP rolls first, and if its the opponents turn, he can choose to go with his force rolls first. Simple. However, if striking at different Initiatives such as a GK with a halberd with the rest with swords. The way the force weapon works if the halberds pass their force test on unsaved wounds, then the swords will have the ID rule on any wounds they cause instantly, so FNP would be negated entirely regardless of controlling player.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Treat as saved=saved
You now broke the hexrifle as no saves of any kind may be used against it's ability.
re-read the FNP rule, its specifically states it is not a saving throw, however the wound negated is to be treated as having been saved. If it was a saving throw you couldn't use it legally at all as you can only take one "saving throw" per wound.
46128
Post by: Happyjew
Ok so question. Ignoring FNP for the moment. Eldrad and a Guardian are in combat with some GK's (one with a Halberd, the rest with swords). The model with the Halberd deals one wound. The Guardian being the only model in base contact at this point is allocated the wound. When is the test to activate the Force Weapons, before or after the Guardian loses his only Wound?
68355
Post by: easysauce
Happyjew wrote:Ok so question. Ignoring FNP for the moment. Eldrad and a Guardian are in combat with some GK's (one with a Halberd, the rest with swords). The model with the Halberd deals one wound. The Guardian being the only model in base contact at this point is allocated the wound. When is the test to activate the Force Weapons, before or after the Guardian loses his only Wound?
the GK inflicts an unsaved wound as soon as the defending model fails a save, then the force rule is immediately done, triggered by that inflicted wound, if it applies instant death, the model cannot apply its special rule, FNP, to that suffered wound, since the inflicted wound had the instant death rule.
31450
Post by: DeathReaper
megatrons2nd wrote:Treat as saved=saved You now broke the hexrifle as no saves of any kind may be used against it's ability.
Seriously re-read FNP. It is NOT a save, but the result of the FNP roll, if successful, treats the wound as having been saved. So if you pass your Armor/Cover/Invuln then the wound is saved. If you pass your FNP then the wound is saved. Basically if your FNP roll is successful it is exactly the same as making a successful Armor/Cover/Invuln save.
63280
Post by: overlordweasel
Ok so question. Ignoring FNP for the moment. Eldrad and a Guardian are in combat with some GK's (one with a Halberd, the rest with swords). The model with the Halberd deals one wound. The Guardian being the only model in base contact at this point is allocated the wound. When is the test to activate the Force Weapons, before or after the Guardian loses his only Wound?
it follows the same rules as multiple Initiative combats. I6 halberds roll to hit, to wound, then saves are taken as normal. Any unsaved wounds then are rolled on for the Force SR. If it passes, the entire units weapons are ID, if it fails then no more force weapon rolls are made for the swords if they have any unsaved wounds when it reaches their I step.
the question here is if you roll for FNP before or after the psychic test for ID. Which is decided by the controlling player as I stated before. However, its an exception being the halberd and the sword at different I values example I also previously posted that can change that. Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, i've seen it posted for some odd reason in this thread that FNP didn't count the wound as saved. If that was the case, you just broke the game. You outright killed a model without hurting him. What, did the GK Glare the enemy to death? Or more likely, told the enemy he had the blessing of Mattius Wardicus and the enemy just fell over dead by an aneurism from pure concentrated rage.
46128
Post by: Happyjew
In 5th edition you ignored the injury (whatever that means). In 6th edition you treat the wound as saved.
21002
Post by: megatrons2nd
DeathReaper wrote: megatrons2nd wrote:Treat as saved=saved
You now broke the hexrifle as no saves of any kind may be used against it's ability.
Seriously re-read FNP. It is NOT a save, but the result of the FNP roll, if successful, treats the wound as having been saved.
So if you pass your Armor/Cover/Invuln then the wound is saved.
If you pass your FNP then the wound is saved.
Basically if your FNP roll is successful it is exactly the same as making a successful Armor/Cover/Invuln save.
Funny you were the one that said Treat as saved =saved. You also argue that assumed BS5 is BS5. Treat as=Assumed. You argue it to match what you want, not what it says.
31450
Post by: DeathReaper
How is that not true, they both have the same effect. After you make your FNP roll you have to treat the wound as saved. This is exactly the same as if the unit made a Armor/Cover/Invuln save. If there is a flaw with this logic please let me knwo where you think the flawed logic is. You also argue that assumed BS5 is BS5. Treat as=Assumed.
Who mentioned BS5? You argue it to match what you want, not what it says.
Is this a joke, because I do not understand how you came to this conclusion. Please do not assign motive when none exists, it is just rude.
21002
Post by: megatrons2nd
If it were a save than you could not use it against a Hexrifle, as it disallows saves of any kind(which would include the treat as saved).
The flaw in the logic is that FNP>every other special rule printed.
It activates at the point of an unsaved wound. All other special rules that activate at that point have an equal chance of being used. They are activated in the order the active player chooses. Which can leave a guy with no armor, but alive. remove the chance for a FNP roll altogether do to the wound becoming Instant death. A model healing itself. etc........
Now in your turn it can work the other way, goes before Force, instant death tests, ES, etc..... I do not dispute this, however you dispute the section above, and thus break the exceptional rule.
The BS5 is from the Seeker missile discussion, it is the same thing not BS5 just assumed(treat as) BS5. Where you are arguing from the other side, in that it is BS5 and is affected by HtH, which, since it is only treat as/assumed, it is not. Treating it as saved is not a save, and neither is an assumed BS5 actually BS5.
The last bit is me getting a bit frustrated, I am sorry for that. I normally censor myself better. I have a lot going on at this time, moving, new job, and my cousin passed away far to early. So again sorry for picking a pointless bit to poke at you, it was uncalled for on my part.
31450
Post by: DeathReaper
megatrons2nd wrote:If it were a save than you could not use it against a Hexrifle, as it disallows saves of any kind(which would include the treat as saved).
You are not understanding what I am saying.
Treated as saved = the same effect as an Armor/Cover/Invuln save. AKA if you pass your FNP roll you now have a saved wound just like you do when you pass an Armor/Cover/Invuln save.
21002
Post by: megatrons2nd
That part I get. (your way/my way just used for example purposes)
The part I don't is how you justify it being(your way)
Hit
Wound
Fail Save
FnP
Any other rule
The way I read the rules(my way)
Hit
Wound
Fail Save
Special rules in the order the Active player decides
Both ways breaks exactly one rule. Your way breaks the exceptional rule(which does cover activating multiple special rules, not just making both players do something), my way breaks FNP, in as much that it may not be able to be used, and doesn't counter a previous rule.
Just like you won't go back and remove the other models at the same initiative step that gained Instant death, when all wounds by the squad at that step have it. Why should we have to go back and undo our rule where we gained a wound, removed your armor, or removed a model from play?
68289
Post by: Nem
megatrons2nd wrote:That part I get. (your way/my way just used for example purposes)
The part I don't is how you justify it being(your way)
Hit
Wound
Fail Save
FnP
Any other rule
The way I read the rules(my way)
Hit
Wound
Fail Save
Special rules in the order the Active player decides
Both ways breaks exactly one rule. Your way breaks the exceptional rule(which does cover activating multiple special rules, not just making both players do something), my way breaks FNP, in as much that it may not be able to be used, and doesn't counter a previous rule.
Just like you won't go back and remove the other models at the same initiative step that gained Instant death, when all wounds by the squad at that step have it. Why should we have to go back and undo our rule where we gained a wound, removed your armor, or removed a model from play?
IMO, playing by Exceptions would be the fairest and most balanced option.
68416
Post by: BLADERIKER
DeathReaper wrote: megatrons2nd wrote:Treat as saved=saved
You now broke the hexrifle as no saves of any kind may be used against it's ability.
Seriously re-read FNP. It is NOT a save, but the result of the FNP roll, if successful, treats the wound as having been saved.
So if you pass your Armor/Cover/Invuln then the wound is saved.
If you pass your FNP then the wound is saved.
Basically if your FNP roll is successful it is exactly the same as making a successful Armor/Cover/Invuln save.
Okay, if what I am seeing is correct then before applying any special rules to an unsaved Wound you must first see if FNP ignores the unsaved wound by causing it to be saved. Is that correct?
If this is in fact your correlation then please explain how ID works against this?
"Instant Death: Unsaved Wounds Inflicted by an attack with this special rule automatically inflict Instant Death, regardless of the victim's Toughness(see page 16). (Page 38, Bottom Middle, Little Rule Book).
"Instant Death: If a model suffers an unsaved Wound from an attack that has a Strength value of double its Toughness or greater(After Modifiers), it is reduced to 0 Wounds and removed as a Casualty." (Page 16, Middle Left, Little Rule Book).
Based on your assertion, neither Double Toughness nor the ID Special Rule will take effect unless FNP has been failed. This argument causes a paradox in the rules.
"Note that Feel No Pain rolls cannot be made against unsaved Wounds that inflict Instant Death." (Page 35, Top Right, Little Rule Book).
If FNP must be rolled for after an unsaved wound is suffered, regardless of the special rules that may or may not be attached to the unsaved wound; At the same time FNP rolls are not allowed to be rolled because of the Special rules attached to the unsaved wound, How is this resolved? Or can it be?
When is an Unsaved Wound with the ID Special Rule inflicted? When is that same unsaved Wound suffered?
Is the Question of when is an Unsaved Wound Inflicted/Caused versus When is an Unsaved Wound Suffered not at the heart of this debate?
Please enlighten me as I truly wish to see the error of my logic.
31450
Post by: DeathReaper
The FNP rule specifically says it can not be taken against wounds that cause ID, therefore your conclusions are not correct.
68416
Post by: BLADERIKER
DeathReaper wrote: megatrons2nd wrote:If it were a save than you could not use it against a Hexrifle, as it disallows saves of any kind(which would include the treat as saved).
You are not understanding what I am saying.
Treated as saved = the same effect as an Armor/Cover/Invuln save. AKA if you pass your FNP roll you now have a saved wound just like you do when you pass an Armor/Cover/Invuln save.
So then this is incorrect?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DeathReaper wrote:The FNP rule specifically says it can not be taken against wounds that cause ID, therefore your conclusions are not correct.
Then a FNP roll is not =/= a saved wound? is this correct?
31450
Post by: DeathReaper
Not at all.
If you were successful on the FNP roll then that is treated just like you were successful on an Armor/Cover/Invuln save roll.
68416
Post by: BLADERIKER
rigeld2 wrote: AndrewC wrote: DeathReaper wrote: megatrons2nd wrote:Because all attacks that turn have the instant death rule. The whole turn, the ones you passed illegally having used FnP against an instant death weapon, and the one you originally failed.
Note it does say all attacks that turn, not all further wounds that turn.
And you still only have 1 unsaved wound, the other two were saved.
The two you used FNP on did not have the ID rule at the time of FNP, so no rules were broken. This is because nothing tells you to go back and look at the saved wounds.
However, you may have fast rolled them in which case which save did you fail? The first or last? In which case you never should have made the other two if it was the first save that failed. Force rule also, as pointed out elsewhere, applies to all attacks that turn. An since all attacks were made at the same initiative step and are considered simultaneous, how can only one attack be considered ID?
Cheers
Andrew
PS Re the timing, which comes first inflicted or suffered?
Page 35 – Special Rules, Feel No Pain.
Add the following paragraph “If one or more models in a unit have the Feel No Pain special rule then the Mixed Saves method of Wound allocation should always be used for allocating Wounds and removing casualties from that unit; Feel No Pain rolls should be individually made after each failed save.”
You can't fast roll - you must make the tests individually after each failed save.
I have double checked this FAQ and found it to be correct.
For the sake of argument,(Even though I do not believe that Inflicted = Suffered) let us say that, Inflicted unsaved Wounds are the same as Suffered unsaved Wounds, which happen at the exact same time.
Force activation happens immediately after an unsaved wound is inflicted/suffered. Where as FNP happens after an unsaved wound is inflicted/Suffered.
Which would confirm that regardless of who's turn it was, Force would always go first.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DeathReaper wrote:Not at all.
If you were successful on the FNP roll then that is treated just like you were successful on an Armor/Cover/Invuln save roll.
So then it could be used against ID and double Toughness as both of those require a unsaved wound to activate.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DeathReaper wrote:Not at all.
If you were successful on the FNP roll then that is treated just like you were successful on an Armor/Cover/Invuln save roll.
Okay then, so a FNP roll is conditional, and based on what special rules may or may not be active at the time the unsaved Wound is inflicted/suffered.
So is a inflicted unsaved wound the same as a Suffered unsaved wound?
31450
Post by: DeathReaper
BLADERIKER wrote:I have double checked this FAQ and found it to be correct.
For the sake of argument,(Even though I do not believe that Inflicted = Suffered) let us say that, Inflicted unsaved Wounds are the same as Suffered unsaved Wounds, which happen at the exact same time.
Force activation happens immediately after an unsaved wound is inflicted/suffered. Where as FNP happens after an unsaved wound is inflicted/Suffered.
Which would confirm that regardless of who's turn it was, Force would always go first.
Please read the whole thread, this has been covered a few pages back. FNP has wording that makes it happen when an unsaved wound is suffered, which would be at the exact time of a failed save, so it does not need the word immediately, the FNP language covers the timing, which is immediate.
61681
Post by: jegsar
This thread is hilarious.
ID is only applied after the force weapon is activated.
So ID vs FNP isn't in question here.
The only question is which gets triggered first, the activation of the force weapon, or the roll for FNP. If it's force, force wins,
if it's FNP, FNP wins that is the only question presented here.
Force: PG.37
If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved 'Wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it FNP: PG.35 When a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved 'W'ound, it can make a special Feel No Pain roll to avoid being wounded (this is not a saving throw)... - treat it as having been saved.
Clearly stated in the last sentence, if FNP is taken first it counts as being saved and therefore would not let the force weapon be activated.
However what is not clear is which roll gets to go first.
"when a model fails, it can make a special FNP roll" VS "Inflicts a wound, he can immediately choose to activate it."
Which is faster, when this happens do this or immediately upon inflicting a wound.
Well we can't compare that yet.
Which happens first, the wound is inflicted? or the wound is suffered?
I don't have an answer to this since there is no where in the entire BRB that compares Suffered to Inflicted.
Now something that was brought up by someone earlier was Entropic Strike: Any model that suffers one or more unsaved Wounds from a weapon or model with this special rule immediately loses its armor save for the remainder of the battle
The FAQ states that FNP counters this, and the options can look at it this way.
The armor save is removed, the feel no pain save is rolled, if passed they retroactively get their armor save back.
or
The FNP roll gets made first and the wound is not suffered. This of course still doesn't use the word inflicted. Time for someone to go find me the word inflicted in a codex that is obviously countered by FNP.
Until the question of which happens first, inflicted or suffered then we don't have an answer.
If it's the same time then based on the ruling for entropic strike... FNP can save a model from a force weapon that has not been activated earlier the phase (grey knights can do this btw for initiative 1 weapons from their standard initiative weapons if the score a wound on any other model that fails all saves (even if it is only a 1 wound model))
68355
Post by: easysauce
again, the rules as written themselves are very clear, you cannot take FNP on a suffered wound, when that wound that inflicted instant death. they make it quite clear that wounds that inflict instant death comes before feel no pain on a model
some wounds have special rules, instant death is one of them. special wound rules are applied to the wound when it is inflicted (by and regard less of time line, FNP uses that specific wording "inflicts instant death" so where ever and when ever a wound inflicts instant death, the models special rule FNP cannot be applied. FNP can be used to "count as saved" not save, any other rule.
the FNP special rule says specifically, not when a wound inflicts instant death, and the force rule specifically states that it now inflicts instant death, not that the models suffer instant death.
the force rule is all there to determine if that unsaved wound inflicts instant death, if you deny the opponent to make that activation check immediately when he inflicts unsaved wound, you have not determined what kind of wounds they are, and have broken the rule. the wounds either cause instant death., or nothing else, both results are determined by psychic test. you make the test to see what kind of wound is inflicted, and then go from there, fnp is NOT a save and only counts as saved after it has been successfully rolled, assuming no ID on the wound
again, RAW both say force is done immediately on infliction, and FNP is done when suffered, unless the wound inflicted instant death. GW is making a distinction between two time zones, inflict, and suffer, and the FNP is in the suffer zone, specifically saying NO to wounds from the inflicted zone.
again, RAW inflict=inflict suffered=sufferd
we cannot say they are the same word, they are not
21002
Post by: megatrons2nd
The instant death special rule uses inflicts an unsaved wound, the double strength says when a model suffers an unsaved wound. Force uses inflicts, The Hexrifle and the huskblade both use model suffers. The flesh Gauntlet says model takes an unsaved wound. The wraithcannon and D-canon simply inflicts instant death on a to wound roll of 6. Entropic Strike uses suffers, as does pinning.
It appears that "Takes", "Inflicts", and "Suffers" are the same time. As such FNP goes at the same time as every other special rule, as I see nothing that says it ignores the exceptional rule, or anything that says it ignores other special rules, only an unsaved wound. I also do not see anything that would allow it to return a model to play.
I have only found a few items that remove a model, Failing Death or glory(which FNP can't save you from), the Hexrifle, and the Crucible of Malediction(both of which are argued to be able to FNP away).
68416
Post by: BLADERIKER
Hence the reason why for arguments sake I used them as them meaning the same thing. Which inflicting and suffering are not the same.
If the Attacking player does not inflict a wound then there is no reason to make a save.
Also if a Defending players unit does not suffer a wound then there is no reason to make a save.
If a Attacking player succeeds in wounding then he has inflicted a wound, for which a saving throw (if allowed) can be taken against.
If a Defending players unit suffers a wound, it can (if allowed) make a saving throw against the wound.
If the save is passed then the Attacking players inflicted wound is not suffered by the Defending players unit.
If the save is failed the the Attacking player has inflicted an unsaved wound on the Defending player unit.
If the save could not be taken at all, then the Attacking player inflicts an unsaved wound at the same time as the defending player suffers an unsaved wound.
So Force activates immediately after an unsaved wound is inflicted. Where as FNP activates after(But not immediately After) a players unit suffers an unsaved wound.
Thus the Force Activation psychic test will happen before FNP can be rolled for. This is because FNP is conditional, and it cannot be used against any unsaved wound that inflicts ID. There is a 25% chance on a normal GKSS that Force activation will fail. However, if the Psychic test is failed then FNP can be taken as normal.
21002
Post by: megatrons2nd
BLADERIKER wrote:
So Force activates immediately after an unsaved wound is inflicted. Where as FNP activates after(But not immediately After) a players unit suffers an unsaved wound.
Thus the Force Activation psychic test will happen before FNP can be rolled for. This is because FNP is conditional, and it cannot be used against any unsaved wound that inflicts ID. There is a 25% chance on a normal GKSS that Force activation will fail. However, if the Psychic test is failed then FNP can be taken as normal.
The problem is there is no rule in FNP that gives it any special dispensation to automatically go before any other special rule. Automatically Appended Next Post: jegsar wrote:
Now something that was brought up by someone earlier was Entropic Strike: Any model that suffers one or more unsaved Wounds from a weapon or model with this special rule immediately loses its armor save for the remainder of the battle
The FAQ states that FNP counters this, and the options can look at it this way.
The armor save is removed, the feel no pain save is rolled, if passed they retroactively get their armor save back.
or
The FNP roll gets made first and the wound is not suffered. This of course still doesn't use the word inflicted. Time for someone to go find me the word inflicted in a codex that is obviously countered by FNP.
Until the question of which happens first, inflicted or suffered then we don't have an answer.
If it's the same time then based on the ruling for entropic strike... FNP can save a model from a force weapon that has not been activated earlier the phase (grey knights can do this btw for initiative 1 weapons from their standard initiative weapons if the score a wound on any other model that fails all saves (even if it is only a 1 wound model))
Which FAQ? I don't see one in the Necron about FNP saving armor.
68416
Post by: BLADERIKER
jegsar wrote:This thread is hilarious.
ID is only applied after the force weapon is activated.
So ID vs FNP isn't in question here.
The only question is which gets triggered first, the activation of the force weapon, or the roll for FNP. If it's force, force wins,
if it's FNP, FNP wins that is the only question presented here.
Force: PG.37
If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved 'Wounds with a Force weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it FNP: PG.35 When a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved 'W'ound, it can make a special Feel No Pain roll to avoid being wounded (this is not a saving throw)... - treat it as having been saved.
Clearly stated in the last sentence, if FNP is taken first it counts as being saved and therefore would not let the force weapon be activated.
However what is not clear is which roll gets to go first.
"when a model fails, it can make a special FNP roll" VS "Inflicts a wound, he can immediately choose to activate it."
Which is faster, when this happens do this or immediately upon inflicting a wound.
Well we can't compare that yet.
Which happens first, the wound is inflicted? or the wound is suffered?
I don't have an answer to this since there is no where in the entire BRB that compares Suffered to Inflicted.
Now something that was brought up by someone earlier was Entropic Strike: Any model that suffers one or more unsaved Wounds from a weapon or model with this special rule immediately loses its armor save for the remainder of the battle
The FAQ states that FNP counters this, and the options can look at it this way.
The armor save is removed, the feel no pain save is rolled, if passed they retroactively get their armor save back.
or
The FNP roll gets made first and the wound is not suffered. This of course still doesn't use the word inflicted. Time for someone to go find me the word inflicted in a codex that is obviously countered by FNP.
Until the question of which happens first, inflicted or suffered then we don't have an answer.
If it's the same time then based on the ruling for entropic strike... FNP can save a model from a force weapon that has not been activated earlier the phase (grey knights can do this btw for initiative 1 weapons from their standard initiative weapons if the score a wound on any other model that fails all saves (even if it is only a 1 wound model))
ES, FNP, Force Activation...ect may all occur on a unsaved wound, but only one of them is tested immediately after the wound is unsaved. If this was a case of FNP stating in its rule that its roll was taken Immediately after an unsaved wound was suffered then there would be a true conflict between the FNP and the Force Special rules, as both would state that they activated Immediately. At this time, that is not the case.
Also as FNP can negate ES by saving the wound, thus causing the ES effect to be negated after the fact(Which imo FNP would come first); Why cannot Force negate FNP in the same way. Is not, what is true for one true for the other.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
megatrons2nd wrote:BLADERIKER wrote:
So Force activates immediately after an unsaved wound is inflicted. Where as FNP activates after(But not immediately After) a players unit suffers an unsaved wound.
Thus the Force Activation psychic test will happen before FNP can be rolled for. This is because FNP is conditional, and it cannot be used against any unsaved wound that inflicts ID. There is a 25% chance on a normal GKSS that Force activation will fail. However, if the Psychic test is failed then FNP can be taken as normal.
The problem is there is no rule in FNP that gives it any special dispensation to automatically go before any other special rule.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
jegsar wrote:
Now something that was brought up by someone earlier was Entropic Strike: Any model that suffers one or more unsaved Wounds from a weapon or model with this special rule immediately loses its armor save for the remainder of the battle
The FAQ states that FNP counters this, and the options can look at it this way.
The armor save is removed, the feel no pain save is rolled, if passed they retroactively get their armor save back.
or
The FNP roll gets made first and the wound is not suffered. This of course still doesn't use the word inflicted. Time for someone to go find me the word inflicted in a codex that is obviously countered by FNP.
Until the question of which happens first, inflicted or suffered then we don't have an answer.
If it's the same time then based on the ruling for entropic strike... FNP can save a model from a force weapon that has not been activated earlier the phase (grey knights can do this btw for initiative 1 weapons from their standard initiative weapons if the score a wound on any other model that fails all saves (even if it is only a 1 wound model))
Which FAQ? I don't see one in the Necron about FNP saving armor.
Just curious. in the Red text, are you saying that there is nothing that makes FNP have priority over other Special rules?
@Jegsar: Which FAQ are you looking at. please cite page and section of the FAQ if your going to make such a statement to better back your argument.
61681
Post by: jegsar
If you read this scratch that out.
As far as the FAQ, that was earlier in this thread and was not found by myself I am sorry and that FAQ doesn't seem to exist so we don't know about ES.
I reread suffering though pg 15 & 16.
Allocate wounds... take saves based on allocated wounds (this part we agree upon)
pg. 16 Armour Saves If the result is lower than the Armour Save value, the armour fails to protect its wearer and it suffers a wound.
This states the order is if you failed an armour save then you suffer a wound.
FNP
When a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved Wound, it can make a special Feel No Pain roll to avoid being wounded ...
On a 4 or less, you must take the wound as normal.
This means the order is Suffer then Take. Inflict i am still working on. This adds to the proof Suffer is before Take and Suffer is not equal to Take so there is no reason to assume Suffer is the same as inflict.
As far as double strength it checked at the suffered stuff for double strength to reduce it to 0 wounds. If a model suffers an unsaved Wound from an Attack that has a Strength value of double its Toughness value or greater (after modifiers), it is reduced to 0'Wounds and removed as a casualty.
but the ID special states that it ignores the condition of double strength but this is still checked after an unsaved wound, meaning during the suffered phase.
comparing these two, when and if seem to happen during "suffered an unsaved wound" stage.
If goes before when. Where does inflict fit in though?
If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved wounds with a Force weapon .. If the test is passed, all unsaved wounds inflicted by the Force weapon that turn have the Instant Death
This indicates that ID is applied to the inflicted unsaved wound after the wound was inflicted, meaning it is retroactive. I still don't know when Infliction occurs but it clearly states when suffered and takes occurs. Suffered occurs after failing the saving throw.
As a side note Nemesis force weapons use the word "unsaved wounds are caused" so we have even another word to deal with.
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Post by: Happyjew
THis is (finally) covered in the FAQ. Force activation comes first.
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Post by: Steelmage99
Cool. One more issue resolved.
Though I am sad that the answer was "X comes first" instead of going the route of the "Beginning of Turn" question.
Saying; "They happen at the same time, so the player whose turn it is decides the order" would have been more consistent.
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Post by: copper.talos
At last!
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Post by: AndrewC
I'm more annoyed by the fact that I need 2 6's to hit a flyer with seeker missiles, but thats another story.
Andrew
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Post by: jegsar
Hey I'll take it! anyone notice that vector strike now says NO COVER SAVE! Holy smokes BATMAN!
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Post by: Enceladus
Indeed it is:
Q: In assault, what comes first – Feel No Pain rolls or the roll to
activate a Force weapon? (p37)
A: The roll to activate a Force Weapon is made before
determining whether or not the victim is permitted a Feel
No Pain roll.
Huzzahhh!
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Post by: Stormbreed
Followed the fluff as expected. Who's excited to read pages on range now !!!!
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Post by: easysauce
Q: In assault, what comes first – Feel No Pain rolls or the roll to
activate a Force weapon? (p37)
A: The roll to activate a Force Weapon is made before
determining whether or not the victim is permitted a Feel
No Pain roll.
again, no clarification of the rules was needed, but some people dont read right, inflicted = before suffered,
eitehr way, the answer is written in stone now,
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Post by: DeathReaper
That is not the first time an FaQ has changed a rule, but at least it has been answered.
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Post by: yakface
Time for this thread to be locked as the question has been definitively answered.
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