It's no secret that the 40K community is somewhat... vocal in voicing its displeasure concerning just about anything. Currently, the biggest 40K forums tend towards negativity. Take this site for example; it's practically impossible to have a 40K-related discussion (or any topic that even tangenitally touches on GW) without trolls, whiners, and the overall dregs of the community taking the conversation over and turning it into a GW bash-fest with almost no effort. The signal-to-noise ratio seems to be getting much worse with almost each passing day.
Different communities face this same issue, and have dealt with them in different ways. The official World of Warcraft forums, for example, are just as bad as most 40K forums. Blizzard has made some half-hearted attempts to clean things up, but nowadays the only people who spend and real amount of time there are trolls and whiners. Going to the WoW forums looking for a real discussion is an exercise in futility and sifting through pubescent complaining and obnoxiousness. Other communities suffer from this malaise as well, and have dealt with it in different ways. The Freebootaz, for example, charge a nominal fee for access to their forums which has proven to be an effective barrier against trolls. While this may not be an effective solution for every 40K forum, it still works well enough to improve the signal-to-noise ratio to be useful.
My question is this: how much responsibility does the community have as a whole in this? Should we rely on mods and forum owners to dictate the overall tone of discourse, or do community members bear some of the responsibility for the current state of affairs? If community members as a while bear some of the burden, what can be done to improve things?
That is with any forum, as a long time member of several gaming forums i will state that ANY AND ALL FORUMS degrade into a mass of negativity as people use the interwebs for a place to vent anger. If its meaningful or not..
Now, theres still meaningful convo on any forum, its finding it and placing those that constantly Kvetch on the ignore list..
Constant negativity could be seen as attempts to whirl up other members and Mods can ban, warn ect members that come on just to spit in eyes. Honest well thought out complaints are a different subject. The good and bad will be discussed. thats why were here.
This is an excellent example of what I'm talking about. How exactly can we have an honest discussion with posts like this? It's hyperbolic, puerile, and does nothing but help poison any actual discussion trying to take place.
Your problem is that you confuse legitimate criticism with being a "bash-fest" and expect that even when GW does stupid things the majority of talk about GW should be praise. GW-related forums will stop being a "bash-fest" when GW stops constantly doing things that deserve criticism.
I believe that people should only think happy thoughts and anyone with a negative opinion should be thrown in jail forever for putting out bad vibes.
There should be international censorship strike forces coordinated by a Central Censorship Bureau working to ensure corporate interests and maximum profitz.
Why oh why does no one ever think of the profits? Think of all of the money you're taking away from poor old beat up GW every time you criticize their completely selfish business practices, guys. Do it.
To be fair, GW does very little damage control. The one guy who made an appearance on the forums to recruit in the name of GW did a fairly decent job of taking the slings and arrows here. I applaud him for his honesty and the time he took to reach out to the community.
Peregrine wrote: Your problem is that you confuse legitimate criticism with being a "bash-fest" and expect that even when GW does stupid things the majority of talk about GW should be praise. GW-related forums will stop being a "bash-fest" when GW stops constantly doing things that deserve criticism.
I understand the difference between legitimate criticism and blatant hate, believe me. I'm don't want to silence any dissent against GW by any stretch of the imagination; what I want to do is try raising the overall level of discourse above its current level of "2 pages of GW hate for every 1 considerate (supporting or criticizing) post" that goes on.
Kung Fu Hamster wrote: Take this site for example; it's practically impossible to have a 40K-related discussion (or any topic that even tangenitally touches on GW) without trolls, whiners, and the overall dregs of the community taking the conversation over and turning it into a GW bash-fest with almost no effort.
That's a mighty large brush you have sitting in that tar pot...
The negativity towards games workshop is entirely a thing of their own creation. The community is under no obligation to try to clean up the mess that GW have made.
Peregrine wrote: Your problem is that you confuse legitimate criticism with being a "bash-fest" and expect that even when GW does stupid things the majority of talk about GW should be praise. GW-related forums will stop being a "bash-fest" when GW stops constantly doing things that deserve criticism.
I understand the difference between legitimate criticism and blatant hate, believe me. I'm don't want to silence any dissent against GW by any stretch of the imagination; what I want to do is try raising the overall level of discourse above its current level of "2 pages of GW hate for every 1 considerate (supporting or criticizing) post" that goes on.
Why? If GW is doing bad to good things at a ratio of 2:1 (I'd argue that the ratio is even worse, really) why shouldn't the ratio of comments reflect that? And why should discourse that is dominated by criticism automatically be bad?
WarOne wrote: To be fair, GW does very little damage control. The one guy who made an appearance on the forums to recruit in the name of GW did a fairly decent job of taking the slings and arrows here. I applaud him for his honesty and the time he took to reach out to the community.
Take note: This is considered valid criticism. GW does, in fact, have a minimal community presence, and it certainly doesn't do them much good.
TedNugent wrote: I believe that people should only think happy thoughts and anyone with a negative opinion should be thrown in jail forever for putting out bad vibes.
There should be international censorship strike forces coordinated by a Central Censorship Bureau working to ensure corporate interests and maximum profitz.
Why oh why does no one ever think of the profits? Think of all of the money you're taking away from poor old beat up GW every time you criticize their completely selfish business practices, guys. Do it.
This, on the other hand, is someone spewing tripe simply for the sake of spewing tripe. Anything not fitting into the "GW IS THE SUXXORZ!!!1!!1" mold should be mocked and driven away.
What exactly did you hope to accomplish? What point were you trying to get across?
Peregrine wrote: Your problem is that you confuse legitimate criticism with being a "bash-fest" and expect that even when GW does stupid things the majority of talk about GW should be praise. GW-related forums will stop being a "bash-fest" when GW stops constantly doing things that deserve criticism.
I understand the difference between legitimate criticism and blatant hate, believe me. I'm don't want to silence any dissent against GW by any stretch of the imagination; what I want to do is try raising the overall level of discourse above its current level of "2 pages of GW hate for every 1 considerate (supporting or criticizing) post" that goes on.
Why? If GW is doing bad to good things at a ratio of 2:1 (I'd argue that the ratio is even worse, really) why shouldn't the ratio of comments reflect that? And why should discourse that is dominated by criticism automatically be bad?
The ratio of comments isn't my point, it's the quality. Valid criticism is one thing, blatant trolling to look cool in front of the rest of the forum is something completely different.
Kung Fu Hamster wrote: My question is this: how much responsibility does the community have as a whole in this? Should we rely on mods and forum owners to dictate the overall tone of discourse, or do community members bear some of the responsibility for the current state of affairs? If community members as a while bear some of the burden, what can be done to improve things?
This I'll address.
The forums are not obligated to white knight the GW cause.
They do maintain some degree of control by rooting out those who harm the forums. That is all they need to do. They do not go out of their way to squelch those who complain about the GW mentality. The conversation shifts accordingly depending on what GW does. We do applaud GW when they release fantastic material and chide them for their PR missteps. As the largest miniatures company, they have to tackle the largest group of buyers and whiners. It's their obligation as number one to do so.
The forums do not need to regulate what GW should be addressing themselves. Just not the forum's problem.
Well said WarOne but it seems that the a great amount of time on this forums falls under the same topic. I can think of a lot of ways the "community" could interact with them for positive changes but does not.
Kung Fu Hamster wrote: My question is this: how much responsibility does the community have as a whole in this? Should we rely on mods and forum owners to dictate the overall tone of discourse, or do community members bear some of the responsibility for the current state of affairs? If community members as a while bear some of the burden, what can be done to improve things?
This I'll address.
The forums are not obligated to white knight the GW cause.
They do maintain some degree of control by rooting out those who harm the forums. That is all they need to do. They do not go out of their way to squelch those who complain about the GW mentality. The conversation shifts accordingly depending on what GW does. We do applaud GW when they release fantastic material and chide them for their PR missteps. As the largest miniatures company, they have to tackle the largest group of buyers and whiners. It's their obligation as number one to do so.
The forums do not need to regulate what GW should be addressing themselves. Just not the forum's problem.
My primary issue is with the quality of discussion, not with the overall content. Furthermore, I was also attempting to make a distinction between the forum owners & mods, and the forum users in general. Which were you referring to when speaking about "the forums"?
WarOne wrote: To be fair, GW does very little damage control. The one guy who made an appearance on the forums to recruit in the name of GW did a fairly decent job of taking the slings and arrows here. I applaud him for his honesty and the time he took to reach out to the community.
Once it was made understood that any company can come down to this site and recruit for employees from it then I was fine with it. Sooner or later I'm going to do something like that. Find employees.
Edited I wanted to know why the OP posted the way he posted and he answered sufficiently. I erased my previous comment.
Kung Fu Hamster wrote: The ratio of comments isn't my point, it's the quality. Valid criticism is one thing, blatant trolling to look cool in front of the rest of the forum is something completely different.
You assume that the critics are just "blatantly" trolling rather than being legitimately unhappy with GW. This is a bad assumption given how many hate-worthy things GW has done lately.
Kung Fu Hamster wrote: My question is this: how much responsibility does the community have as a whole in this? Should we rely on mods and forum owners to dictate the overall tone of discourse, or do community members bear some of the responsibility for the current state of affairs? If community members as a while bear some of the burden, what can be done to improve things?
This I'll address.
The forums are not obligated to white knight the GW cause.
They do maintain some degree of control by rooting out those who harm the forums. That is all they need to do. They do not go out of their way to squelch those who complain about the GW mentality. The conversation shifts accordingly depending on what GW does. We do applaud GW when they release fantastic material and chide them for their PR missteps. As the largest miniatures company, they have to tackle the largest group of buyers and whiners. It's their obligation as number one to do so.
The forums do not need to regulate what GW should be addressing themselves. Just not the forum's problem.
My primary issue is with the quality of discussion, not with the overall content. Furthermore, I was also attempting to make a distinction between the forum owners & mods, and the forum users in general. Which were you referring to when speaking about "the forums"?
I should of been more precise, but it comes down to the moderators and administrators and ultimately owner are not responsible for what forum users say about GW and the users in general are not simply complainers. GW does receive positive endorsements when they do things right. I agree the volume of noise is loud because GW is the biggest company hands down. You just have to live with it.
Now now now we need some new playthings to play with.... hmmmmm? Yea I'm a Slaanesh player. Better to die with a smile on my face than a bullet to the head
WarOne wrote: To be fair, GW does very little damage control. The one guy who made an appearance on the forums to recruit in the name of GW did a fairly decent job of taking the slings and arrows here. I applaud him for his honesty and the time he took to reach out to the community.
Once it was made understood that any company can come down to this site and recruit for employees from it then I was fine with it. Sooner or later I'm going to do something like that. Find employees.
@Kung fu Hamster I'm wondering why are you here at this site? You already starting up to stir up people all ready. Is this your purpose?
This forum has a large userbase and has a lot of great information available, particularly in the P&M forums. It could be a hell of a lot better, however, (along with a great many forums not excluisively dedicated to 40K or wargaming in general) if the users and/or mods did a better job of improving the quality of discourse and did something about people being negative simply for the sake of being negative.
Think of it as taking Wil Wheaton's "Don't Be A D***" mantra to a new audience.
I realize that this particular topic wouldn't be met with universal acclaim, but my intention was not to piss anyone off simply for my own amusement.
I hate how all these threads complaining about the quality of discourse keep popping up. If only the moderators did a better job at removing threads complaining about the quality of discourse we could have a much greater quality of discourse.
...you don't have to read anything. If a post (or poster) annoys you, you can scroll on past or even click the ignore button. If the operators of DakkaDakka feel that they should take action for whatever their reasons might be, that is their prerogative (also being free and all that) - but the notion that some people should be silenced because you feel they are not at your level of discourse is a bit ridiculous.
If anything though, you often have the "white knights" turn to personal attacks sooner than the "GW haters". Haters are more interested in venting against GW and their management. White Knights often have to fall back on insults when they run out of ways to defend GW.
Kung Fu Hamster wrote: My question is this: how much responsibility does the community have as a whole in this? Should we rely on mods and forum owners to dictate the overall tone of discourse, or do community members bear some of the responsibility for the current state of affairs? If community members as a while bear some of the burden, what can be done to improve things?
This I'll address.
The forums are not obligated to white knight the GW cause.
They do maintain some degree of control by rooting out those who harm the forums. That is all they need to do. They do not go out of their way to squelch those who complain about the GW mentality. The conversation shifts accordingly depending on what GW does. We do applaud GW when they release fantastic material and chide them for their PR missteps. As the largest miniatures company, they have to tackle the largest group of buyers and whiners. It's their obligation as number one to do so.
The forums do not need to regulate what GW should be addressing themselves. Just not the forum's problem.
My primary issue is with the quality of discussion, not with the overall content. Furthermore, I was also attempting to make a distinction between the forum owners & mods, and the forum users in general. Which were you referring to when speaking about "the forums"?
I should of been more precise, but it comes down to the moderators and administrators and ultimately owner are not responsible for what forum users say about GW and the users in general are not simply complainers. GW does receive positive endorsements when they do things right. I agree the volume of noise is loud because GW is the biggest company hands down. You just have to live with it.
Fair enough. I would counter (simply for the purpose of encouraging discussion and not to intentionally rile anyone up) with the idea that forum mods and owners bear some responsibility for the level of discourse. If a forum becomes a haven for trolling and negativity due to the mods having a "hands-off" approach to their duties, doesn't that reflect on the mods as well as the users?
Kung Fu Hamster wrote: It could be a hell of a lot better, however, if the users and/or mods did a better job of improving the quality of discourse and did something about people being negative simply for the sake of being negative.
This can be done constructively by getting like minded people to join such a cause. Make a thread about it in the Nuts and Bolts section and see what others say.
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Kung Fu Hamster wrote: Fair enough. I would counter (simply for the purpose of encouraging discussion and not to intentionally rile anyone up) with the idea that forum mods and owners bear some responsibility for the level of discourse. If a forum becomes a haven for trolling and negativity due to the mods having a "hands-off" approach to their duties, doesn't that reflect on the mods as well as the users?
How far hands off are we talking about? Taking it to the extreme where moderators do no moderating, DakkaDakka would inevitably create enough vitriol to push away most of everyone.
But such as it is, there is a good blend right now. It's an open forum where people can exercise both their opinion and creativity. We have many GW haters and the apathetic, but there is alternatives to just simply complaining. Several companies get lots of good press and traffic by being the alternative to GW and thus syphon off some of that negativity into other projects which rival and can exceed what GW does.
Also, do not confuse the intent of DCMs as well. Many, many complaints of DCMs are simply caricatures of what stereotypical forum users express. We may not count at all when it comes to the complaining department because we really do not mean it.
WarOne wrote: To be fair, GW does very little damage control. The one guy who made an appearance on the forums to recruit in the name of GW did a fairly decent job of taking the slings and arrows here. I applaud him for his honesty and the time he took to reach out to the community.
Once it was made understood that any company can come down to this site and recruit for employees from it then I was fine with it. Sooner or later I'm going to do something like that. Find employees.
@Kung fu Hamster I'm wondering why are you here at this site? You already starting up to stir up people all ready. Is this your purpose?
This forum has a large userbase and has a lot of great information available, particularly in the P&M forums. It could be a hell of a lot better, however, (along with a great many forums not excluisively dedicated to 40K or wargaming in general) if the users and/or mods did a better job of improving the quality of discourse and did something about people being negative simply for the sake of being negative.
Think of it as taking Wil Wheaton's "Don't Be A D***" mantra to a new audience.
I realize that this particular topic wouldn't be met with universal acclaim, but my intention was not to piss anyone off simply for my own amusement.
The problem is that you sound like a pro. You sound like a person who has been here in the past and not some new commer with under 100 postings.
There have in the past been people coming to this site as well as others stirring up the community in a negative fashion spouting off a lot of Pro GW crap.
Credit is given when credit is due. When GW does the right thing they do get praise.
Kung Fu Hamster wrote: It could be a hell of a lot better, however, if the users and/or mods did a better job of improving the quality of discourse and did something about people being negative simply for the sake of being negative.
This can be done constructively by getting like minded people to join such a cause. Make a thread about it in the Nuts and Bolts section and see what others say.
I may do this, but my opinion is that forum users would be a better source of change than forum mods/owners. Social/group pressures coming from within tend to be stronger than external forces in quality control for thing like this, I've noticed.
Kung Fu Hamster wrote: It could be a hell of a lot better, however, if the users and/or mods did a better job of improving the quality of discourse and did something about people being negative simply for the sake of being negative.
This can be done constructively by getting like minded people to join such a cause. Make a thread about it in the Nuts and Bolts section and see what others say.
I may do this, but my opinion is that forum users would be a better source of change than forum mods/owners. Social/group pressures coming from within tend to be stronger than external forces in quality control for thing like this, I've noticed.
The intent of a nuts and bolts thread would accomplish both; forum users could critique what you are asking to see if it is valid and moderators may weight in on it too.
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Tigerone wrote: The always popular your post count is to low point.
WarOne wrote: To be fair, GW does very little damage control. The one guy who made an appearance on the forums to recruit in the name of GW did a fairly decent job of taking the slings and arrows here. I applaud him for his honesty and the time he took to reach out to the community.
Once it was made understood that any company can come down to this site and recruit for employees from it then I was fine with it. Sooner or later I'm going to do something like that. Find employees.
@Kung fu Hamster I'm wondering why are you here at this site? You already starting up to stir up people all ready. Is this your purpose?
This forum has a large userbase and has a lot of great information available, particularly in the P&M forums. It could be a hell of a lot better, however, (along with a great many forums not excluisively dedicated to 40K or wargaming in general) if the users and/or mods did a better job of improving the quality of discourse and did something about people being negative simply for the sake of being negative.
Think of it as taking Wil Wheaton's "Don't Be A D***" mantra to a new audience.
I realize that this particular topic wouldn't be met with universal acclaim, but my intention was not to piss anyone off simply for my own amusement.
The problem is that you sound like a pro. You sound like a person who has been here in the past and not some new commer with under 100 postings.
There have in the past been people coming to this site as well as others stirring up the community in a negative fashion spouting off a lot of Pro GW crap.
Credit is given when credit is due. When GW does the right thing they do get praise.
I realize my postcount and short history here isn't going to help my credibility in any way. However, as this phenomenon isn't unique to the wargaming community, it shouldn't be considered as large a negative as it appears at face value.
EDIT: As far as my "sounding like a pro", it's simply a byproduct of both my profession (IT security) and prediliction towards efficient and productive communication. I try to make sure I get my point across in the most efficient way possible. It does have the side effect of appearing like an astroturfer paid by some PR firm to try improving GW's image and reputation, but that's not the case, I assure you. I detest astroturfers as much as the next guy.
Atropus wrote: That is with any forum, as a long time member of several gaming forums i will state that ANY AND ALL FORUMS degrade into a mass of negativity as people use the interwebs for a place to vent anger. If its meaningful or not..
Not every forum degrades into this. I am part of several that have intelligent, adult conversations. (Note: not GW or video game forums- yea those forums always devolve into this stuff).
The more mature the membership and exclusive a forum is the better it is. Dakka (and other GW game forums) are populated with a number of children and emotionally immature adults which is why the site is the way it is. However we must remember a forum is populated by a minority of the player base and the naysayers are a vocal minority of forum users. So you probably have 1-5% of the player population being vocal haters on these forums. You also have people on here who have an axe to grind for whatever reason and will go out of there way to tear down people and the company.
So the admins of this forum have a choice. The let it be free for anyone to say what they want or they regulate what is said. If you do the latter it takes more work on the admins and moderators part, you will limit your membership and you will lose out on constructive criticism however you will have more meaningful topics of discussion and the forums will be a more enjoyable experience for those select few. If you do the former you will have a larger membership, you will have a lot of negative non-constructive topics but you will also have some meaningful topics on the flaws of GW and their game systems.
So it is all a balancing act. As much as the negativity on here gets to me, I personally do not think it should be limited. People would quit the site in droves and you would lose out ont he nuggets of good information that the large playerbase brings to these forums. Now perhaps there is room for another forum out there in the world that does not allow for overly negative topics (or the constant repetition o the same negative topics), it would be an interesting experiment if anyone wishes to tackle that.
If you see someone trolling and/or being rude to other users, please hit the alert moderator button and we'll check it out.
That being said, most of the criticism I see of GW isn't just trolling or being rude to other users. I love 40k, and I used to love WHFB, but I certainly see GW do a lot of things worthy of criticism.
Cannerus_The_Unbearable wrote: I hate how all these threads complaining about the quality of discourse keep popping up. If only the moderators did a better job at removing threads complaining about the quality of discourse we could have a much greater quality of discourse.
Mannahnin wrote: If you see someone trolling and/or being rude to other users, please hit the alert moderator button and we'll check it out.
That being said, most of the criticism I see of GW isn't just trolling or being rude to other users. I love 40k, and I used to love WHFB, but I certainly see GW do a lot of things worthy of criticism.
Agreed. I have 35 grand wrapped up in this hobby. Been playing miniatures for 44+ years. Tactical board games longer. Been involved in the entertainment industry in one manner or another for 30+ years. It comes down to liking the hobby but not liking the corporation.
There are a great deal of professionals that are on this site and they give their expertise to this site, which I believe is for the greater good.
First off, a lot of people in this thread are completely twisting the OP's words and being blatantly offensive to him, and it's really destroying the opportunity to have an intelligent discussion here. If I'm not mistaken, he's saying that far too many people continually spout off that GW sucks, hates everybody, is evil, and other general complaints, NOT that we should be pro-GW and white knight it up.
Anyway, the first 40k forum I was a member of was 40k Online. There are a very small number of GW hate or complaint threads, and whenever someone makes a post in that style it is generally ignored. Now, that's not to say there's white knighting either, certainly not; only meaningful discussions. And honestly, I think it's directly related to community size. On a smaller forum, someone being nonsensical or trollish will simply be ignored or receive swift moderator action and so be discouraged to make further postings. On a larger forum such as Dakka, a poster will likely have somebody agree with him and somebody that will argue with him in an equally unintelligent fashion, thus fueling the fire. Also, mods on Dakka have far more threads to moderate than smaller forums do.
Without being specific to prior incidents, what would be a criticism that is rude or trolling that would be something a moderator would respond to?
I'm taking away that bonus point and docking you one bonus point for the future.
Seriously though, most users post responsibly and any that get out of control are dealt with accordingly. GW does however provoke strong reactions so it is inevitable some conversations get diluted and drowned out by the noise at times. Not enough to ruin the forums however.
DarkCorsair wrote: First off, a lot of people in this thread are completely twisting the OP's words and being blatantly offensive to him, and it's really destroying the opportunity to have an intelligent discussion here. If I'm not mistaken, he's saying that far too many people continually spout off that GW sucks, hates everybody, is evil, and other general complaints, NOT that we should be pro-GW and white knight it up.
Thank you. This was the main thrust of my initial post.
Anyway, the first 40k forum I was a member of was 40k Online. There are a very small number of GW hate or complaint threads, and whenever someone makes a post in that style it is generally ignored. Now, that's not to say there's white knighting either, certainly not; only meaningful discussions. And honestly, I think it's directly related to community size. On a smaller forum, someone being nonsensical or trollish will simply be ignored or receive swift moderator action and so be discouraged to make further postings. On a larger forum such as Dakka, a poster will likely have somebody agree with him and somebody that will argue with him in an equally unintelligent fashion, thus fueling the fire. Also, mods on Dakka have far more threads to moderate than smaller forums do.
This is very true, which is why I brought up the idea of forum members policing their own (something I learned from my time in the Marine Corps) rather than relying on overworked volunteer mods to handle everything.
I do believe a lot of post comes off negative even if they are not meant to be that way. At least 1/3 of the topics in the discussions index tend to be the same old I hate (insert whatever GW did that day) posts.
What I fail to understand is why someone that does not paint or has played a game of 40k in over a year comes to a forum about a hobby and get mad and moan about a company when they are not even a "customer" of GW.
TedNugent wrote: The job of a moderator is not to be public relations for a company.
And the "responsibility" of a community is to facilitate the objectives of that community, not to help it get robbed blind by a third party.
And at no time has anyone here suggested doing so, or even hinted at it.
Removing blatant negativity and people trying to show off their negativity to impress others is not the same as being a blind cheerleader rah-rah'ing constantly.
And at no time has anyone here suggested doing so, or even hinted at it.
Removing blatant negativity and people trying to show off their negativity to impress others is not the same as being a blind cheerleader rah-rah'ing constantly.
I would much rather you were a blind cheerleader than that you started removing posts you disagreed with.
Kung Fu Hamster wrote: Iit's practically impossible to have a 40K-related discussion (or any topic that even tangenitally touches on GW) without trolls, whiners, and the overall dregs of the community taking the conversation over and turning it into a GW bash-fest with almost no effort. The signal-to-noise ratio seems to be getting much worse with almost each passing day.
Stay classy.
Here's the thing. I don't care about GW one iota. My gaming interests lie elsewhere, from historicals, though Fantasy skirmish like Confrontation to Sci-fi sports like Dreadball. I've played most of the GW gaming 'efforts' in my time but so very few of them are worthy (Epic is the only one I'd honestly say is a great game - all of modern 40k aspires to it, and it's TWENTY-FIVE years old) that the company as a whole is 'meh' to me. When issues like pricing come around, I feel like it's important to note that GW is way out of whack with the majority of other retailers. When discussion of rulesets it going on, I do feel it's important to note that 40k and Fantasy are decades old (and show it).
So I'm not sure what the point of this thread is? "Don't be mean to poor GW?" Well, why not? If there are aspects to their business practices, pricing policy, rules system, so on, so forth that require comment, then is it nor right to pull them up on it? I'm a fair person and happy to apportion praise as well as blame, but I'm not sure what GW have done recently that deserves praise.
DarkCorsair wrote: First off, a lot of people in this thread are completely twisting the OP's words and being blatantly offensive to him, and it's really destroying the opportunity to have an intelligent discussion here. If I'm not mistaken, he's saying that far too many people continually spout off that GW sucks, hates everybody, is evil, and other general complaints, NOT that we should be pro-GW and white knight it up.
Anyway, the first 40k forum I was a member of was 40k Online. There are a very small number of GW hate or complaint threads, and whenever someone makes a post in that style it is generally ignored. Now, that's not to say there's white knighting either, certainly not; only meaningful discussions. And honestly, I think it's directly related to community size. On a smaller forum, someone being nonsensical or trollish will simply be ignored or receive swift moderator action and so be discouraged to make further postings. On a larger forum such as Dakka, a poster will likely have somebody agree with him and somebody that will argue with him in an equally unintelligent fashion, thus fueling the fire. Also, mods on Dakka have far more threads to moderate than smaller forums do.
Was there when it was called Eldar Online. And there is a reason why that site has declined from its glory days so regardless, I understand what you are trying to say as a reference. If you would have commented on others smaller sites such as Botler and Chainsword or Age of Strife, you would have gotten a lot of street cred from me as those sites, though small have excellent support staffing.
The mods here do a very good job in policing and is a reason why this site is one of the largest (if not the largest) hub of information about our hobby that we enjoy.
One more thing. Every Mod here I have spoken too in PM, they were all friendly in their postings. Like what real people are supposed to do and not letting the position go to their heads. I am very grateful of this aspect here. Because of this and other positive aspects (good god on the all of the wonderful artwork and helpful tips) of this site, I'll do whatever I can when this site is ever in need of help.
If you don't like the way some people talk about GW here, then you can always go to the GW forums. Or maybe complain about big bad Dakka on their Facebook page.
This is a forum, where people talk about stuff. White knights gonna white knight, haters gonna hate, and everybody else just goes in with our lives. I'm happy the mods don't censor opinions, and I am okay with censoring attidutes that break the rules.
Dakka is not a GW forum, it's a wargaming forum. That evolution means that you will get people here with lots of opinions about GW. GW is obviously not interested in fostering a positive online environment for their fans to hang out.
My answer is to simply play with my space barbies and not get emotionally invested in the strategies of a multinational corporation.
Ah a fellow DCMer and the holder of the most Dakka Bonus Points. Here comes a straight forward question.
Do you think DCMs have more investment that regular posters to help self-police themselves and in turn help improve the forum conversations?
Would like to believe so however we are all human and our emotions do come into play at times. However at the DCM I can have a civil conversation, right or wrong, and get their perspective on why they believe on a certain topic.
All those juicy pictures in our tower you could have shared...
Of course if you somehow have access to the DCM section without being a DCM then you probably would have noticed that nobody really bit on this. The "trolling" DCMs in here have actually provided valid feedback.
If you have a problem we do have fancy triangles in the corners of each post. Click them and alert a mod.
Also, do not confuse the intent of DCMs as well. Many, many complaints of DCMs are simply caricatures of what stereotypical forum users express. We may not count at all when it comes to the complaining department because we really do not mean it.
Or do we?
Cannerus did point out this thread and me giving nonchalant answers to what we were "supposed" to do in and of itself does anything other than highlight what I stated earlier. Instead of mocking it, I embraced it as an opportunity for discourse.
DCMs are not above this form of behavior (trying to take things seriously). Have I not been trying to have reasonable discourse here? Then again, you should go further within that thread to see us trying to purport the existence of ten foot tall space marines as an elaborate hoax to convince others that GW really does use ten foot tall space marines for their lore and games.
After been on this site for a while watching it feels like alot of the users on here only like to insult each other and be generally rude towards each which turns me off on interacting here and contributing. I think the subject here should be broadened to complain about GW but be nice to each
Removing blatant negativity and people trying to show off their negativity to impress others is not the same as being a blind cheerleader rah-rah'ing constantly.
There's that tarry brush again.
That 'blatant negativity' isn't always just 'showing off'. For some (I would go so far as to guess most), it's just a way to vent their frustration with a company that seems dead set on driving them away from a hobby that they have invested a heck of a lot of time, effort and cash into. What you see as baseless negativity that is bringing the forum down, others see as a large part of what being a member of this sort of community it's all about. Just because our isn't positive doesn't mean it isn't productive... Having that avenue to act out their displeasure I suspect is what allows some of us to keep coming back to this game, even when we should know better.
If GW did more to encourage good will from the vets instead of seemingly deliberately alienating them, it wouldn't be add much of an issue... Hence my earlier comment about this situation bring one of GW's own creation.
Kung Fu Hamster wrote: Take this site for example; it's practically impossible to have a 40K-related discussion (or any topic that even tangenitally touches on GW) without trolls, whiners, and the overall dregs of the community taking the conversation over and turning it into a GW bash-fest with almost no effort.
That's a mighty large brush you have sitting in that tar pot...
The negativity towards games workshop is entirely a thing of their own creation. The community is under no obligation to try to clean up the mess that GW have made.
So when you called me out two weeks ago for calling out the Dakka-moderation as encouraging only hatred, did you really mean to say "We completely agree with you and Dakka would not exist since insipid and banal bashing is all we have"?
If GW did more to encourage good will from the vets instead of seemingly deliberately alienating them, it wouldn't be add much of an issue... Hence my earlier comment about this situation bring one of GW's own creation.
This. Fair enough there will always be people who complain but there is a difference between them and people who love the hobby, want to love GW but simply can't get over the fact GW seems determined to force them out. There are a lot of negative threads out there at the moment but how many of them start with "GW did X" rather than "I'm just going to yell loudly"?
Peregrine wrote: Your problem is that you confuse legitimate criticism with being a "bash-fest.
It sounds like a discussion about Religion In the OT forum!
Quietly mention the fact that your against genital mutilation or the dogmatic belief in each and every sentence in an old book and you are "bashing" religion. It was Frazzled favourite term, usually after he said something so obnoxious that anyone else would have been censured for it.
The whole term is poisonous and was created just to shut the dissenters up. There's no such thing as "bashing" something. There's just legitimate criticism, or silly childish criticism, and the latter should be ignored.
Plenty of the critical points on here about GW are perfectly valid. Plenty of them aren't. I learn from the former and nod, and smile shake my head and ignore the latter, or form a rebuttal if I can be bothered, but either way why is it an issue?
I don't think there's a problem here, forums work as intended, you read, you learn, you sift through a little garbage but so what?
I don't see what community responsibly is required frankly. Allow the user to ignore what he sees fit according to his own taste. In my case, I've never put anyone on ignore, some people have me and ten others on their list, each to their own and no harm done. It's total control.
On forums and life In general we need less use of the term bashing, and less moderation, not more! What ever happened to all the people who say "I disagree with what you say, but will defend to the death your right to say it" is that just total baloney and people with no integrity just chant that loudly until they read something they disagree with and then demand quietly that it be scrubbed from existence?
And I'm not just saying that because of our entirely nonimpartial moderators. I'm saying it because it's entirely logical. For a people's that claim to love freedom so much, we don't seem to like the idea of being free to ignore that which we don't agree with and prefer a more infantile "please protect me" approach.
Read the forum, don't read the forum. Ignore what and who you like, but in my eyes that's where any sense of community responsibility should cease, be it from Blizzard, games workshop or anyone else.
DarknessEternal wrote: So when you called me out two weeks ago for calling out the Dakka-moderation as encouraging only hatred, did you really mean to say "We completely agree with you and Dakka would not exist since insipid and banal bashing is all we have"?
No. Accepting that some people don't view GW in a positive light is quite a long way from 'encouraging only hatred'...
Kung Fu Hamster wrote: It's no secret that the 40K community is somewhat... vocal in voicing its displeasure concerning just about anything. Currently, the biggest 40K forums tend towards negativity. Take this site for example; it's practically impossible to have a 40K-related discussion (or any topic that even tangenitally touches on GW) without trolls, whiners, and the overall dregs of the community taking the conversation over and turning it into a GW bash-fest with almost no effort. The signal-to-noise ratio seems to be getting much worse with almost each passing day.
Different communities face this same issue, and have dealt with them in different ways. The official World of Warcraft forums, for example, are just as bad as most 40K forums. Blizzard has made some half-hearted attempts to clean things up, but nowadays the only people who spend and real amount of time there are trolls and whiners. Going to the WoW forums looking for a real discussion is an exercise in futility and sifting through pubescent complaining and obnoxiousness. Other communities suffer from this malaise as well, and have dealt with it in different ways. The Freebootaz, for example, charge a nominal fee for access to their forums which has proven to be an effective barrier against trolls. While this may not be an effective solution for every 40K forum, it still works well enough to improve the signal-to-noise ratio to be useful.
My question is this: how much responsibility does the community have as a whole in this? Should we rely on mods and forum owners to dictate the overall tone of discourse, or do community members bear some of the responsibility for the current state of affairs? If community members as a while bear some of the burden, what can be done to improve things?
The problem with trying to solve any perceived issue like this is two-fold:
1) 'The Community' as a whole, cannot agree to do anything, because there can never be an agreement on what should or could be done. By its very nature, the community includes people with a huge variety of opinions.
2) Assuming at an administrative level you're enforcing some sort of guidelines, what precisely is the point of such a goal? If you're trying to foster discussion about a particular game, are you really helping by ensuring that discussion on that topic ONLY follows whatever guidelines you set?
This topic is a tough one for me personally, because I personally don't like to dwell on the negative aspects of 40K or GW or anything related to my hobby for that matter and would generally prefer to discuss topics with people who share my common views. Yet, at the same time, the goal of this particular site is to be an open forum to the entire spectrum of miniature gaming. Yes, I know this site has always had a heavy-focus on 40K, but that's also partially because 40K is the most popular miniature game as well.
So anyway, the point being, if people are unhappy with aspects of a game or a company or whatever, then they should be as free to speak their mind as people who feel the opposite. Yes, people who are unhappy tend to be more vocal than people who are happy about something online, but a level of backlash against a company or its practices are absolutely a reflection of how the public (or at least their potential consumers) are feeling.
Now, we do hold the general rule for all posts and posters that you need to remain polite, and that guideline does apply in relation to any company including GW. Unfortunately, GW does continually seem to utilize business practices that drive many of their customers seemingly batty, which in turn causes so much ill will that it becomes practically impossible to enforce the same level of politeness towards GW comments as we do towards other people and companies.
Because if we were to try to do that, it is just such a prevalent feeling, that it would essentially mean that we'd have to continually censor people to the point that they'd have no interest in posting on this site anymore.
However, even though there may seem to be a prevalence of negativity, I often think that people spend a lot of time actually feeling trapped by that negativity instead of just ignoring it and moving on. If you like the game of 40k, for example, you can go into any of our 40k forums and discuss particular aspects of the game. Sure you'll get the occasional snide remark about GW for sure, but in general those forums are filled with people talking and loving 40k. In addition, we do have an 'ignore' function that allows to hide the posts of those posters you identify as having a viewpoint that you have no interest in reading. Once you 'ignore' a few people that continually bother you, all of a sudden you may find your experience much more pleasurable.
So I guess to answer your original premise:
• I don't think the community as a whole can ever agree to do anything because nothing could ever be agreed upon.
• I don't think (in the case of Dakka) that enforcing rules about only posting positive things about GW (for example) would be a good thing, as the overall online public sentiment (not just on Dakka) is often negative towards GW and therefore to try to censor people from expressing as much would instead lead the site to feeling oppressive and people would stop using it because of that.
I think instead, there is always a place for smaller more focused communities that *can* agree purposely not to talk about certain things because they simply don't want to (The Freebootaz forum is a great example). Dakka, on the other hand, is pretty much the largest collection of miniature gaming forum conversation on the planet, and therefore it needs to allow the prevailing sentiment to be heard, even if that sentiment isn't necessarily what you or I happen to agree with.
Kung Fu Hamster wrote: So how's the "TROLL THIS THREAD" discussion in the DCM forum going? Having fun snickering amongst yourselves?
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Please stick to the topic.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Secondly, I agree with Yakface that if you want to talk about 40K you can go into various specialist 40K areas on this site, sich as YMDC, or 40K Discussions. They are generally positive about the game and ignore GW business practices.
I haven't been on Dakka for very long, but wanted to offer a view based on things I've seen on a couple of other forums. Namely: unconditional praise (and attempting to shut down all discussion other than unconditional praise) has a stronger chilling effect on discussion than just about anything else.
I guess what I'd say, ultimately, is that the best way to improve discussion is to just address the posts and avoid getting bogged down in fighting over something. If someone says something you disagree with, there's no reason to keep hammering them until they repent or leave; it's okay to just let it go if no good conversation will come of it.
Also, "hater" is an awful word. Almost nobody is a "hater" - they usually have reasons behind their opinions, not just "hate." Please remember that almost everyone who goes to the trouble of posting will be doing it because they still care about the HHHobby or whatever you want to call GW's particular slice of it. I think you can tell a game is dead when nobody cares enough to criticise it anymore.
All that said, in my experience Dakka has a very good quality of posting overall and think if anything is to be avoided by the community, it's letting disagreements balloon out to the point where they overshadow the topic of the thread. That usually takes at least two people!
WarOne wrote: To be fair, GW does very little damage control. The one guy who made an appearance on the forums to recruit in the name of GW did a fairly decent job of taking the slings and arrows here. I applaud him for his honesty and the time he took to reach out to the community.
Once it was made understood that any company can come down to this site and recruit for employees from it then I was fine with it. Sooner or later I'm going to do something like that. Find employees.
@Kung fu Hamster I'm wondering why are you here at this site? You already starting up to stir up people all ready. Is this your purpose?
This forum has a large userbase and has a lot of great information available, particularly in the P&M forums. It could be a hell of a lot better, however, (along with a great many forums not excluisively dedicated to 40K or wargaming in general) if the users and/or mods did a better job of improving the quality of discourse and did something about people being negative simply for the sake of being negative.
Think of it as taking Wil Wheaton's "Don't Be A D***" mantra to a new audience.
I realize that this particular topic wouldn't be met with universal acclaim, but my intention was not to piss anyone off simply for my own amusement.
You should have tried to at least act like it then in that blanket statement first post. Your subsiquent attempts at "responsibility" only add to the blantent instigation.
Exactly what is your issue? That you think it should only be discussed about how GW can do no wrong, and that everything is puppydogs and cake?
First things first, before you continue. You shot out of the hole that everyone that didn't think the way you did was a whiner, troll, or GW basher because it is cool, yet YOU are trying to get a topic out crying over civility.
How does that work?
First, you are coming off as a clownass. You negated pretty much any other opinion then yours.
Second, You have not given any give in the "give and take" in a art of conversation. Your fist move should be- state the issue, see who bites. Not "Whats my responsibility because GW has turned into Gak on a stick."
Then thirds- you are consistantly just arbitrarily shooting respondence in the face with oddball comments. I don't even see that you even read them here. Just arbitrarily just dicking on the mods, owner, and posters, for no other reason then to get a rise out of people.
Want a point of contention? I think your wrong. GW is a Gak company, I hold no responsibility to them at all, and I'll give you a few reasons why I think so.
- GW is consistantly reducing the quality of the product, while at the ssame time claiming that it is the best on the market. They overcharge for shoddy work that in any other industry standard would have landed them in court over thier obvious misleading claim that they are a high end hobby product.
- Product is faulty. QAQC is nonexistant, materials are hazardous to the health of children and pregnant women, product sold is not the product being advertised.
- Pricing is increasingly ridiculous to the point of borderline criminal.
- Customer support is not there.
- Discourse, flim flam sales, and complete head in the sand attitude has taken a once top notch product and degraded the said product to the point where it is no longer viable to buy these figures with a straight face.
- The company President/ CEO is participating in fraud and waste in the company while at the same time milking the profits to his own investments.
- Finecrap, and the ever evolving deception campaign that they (GW) are waging.
- Market manipulation and the way in which they treat independent game store owners.
- Online presence, lack there of, and the continued turtle in a shell attitude when they are confronted with issues.
- Lack of any responsibility to anyone other then themselves, ethics, and the lacking there of.
- Confrontational attitude of staff, and thier continued contempt to thier customer base.
Show me where I'm wrong.
And yes, I embrace my hate and make it part of me. ESPECIALLY when I've invested years of time, money, and effort into a game/ system/ product, and have to sit back and watch some nutbag who is only interested in padding thier own pockets and shilling over to the lowest denominator in an environment of chones and YES men.
If you think I do it to be a "kool Kid", your mistaken.
For the better part of 5 or so years, GW has gone down the wrong road and taken a giagantic gak on players and the community. They treat thier employees like gak and fans even worse.
SO, If you think that it deserves appause and unicorns, thats all on you.
Grot 6 wrote: Want a point of contention? I think your wrong. GW is a Gak company, I hold no responsibility to them at all, and I'll give you a few reasons why I think so.
Don't forget their use of legal threats to bully people into submission even when they have no valid argument (for example, the most recent "we own 'space marine' no matter what the law says" idiocy). Aren't you glad that prices are going up to pay the lawyers to waste time on that nonsense?
It's hard to take a thread starter seriously when they claim to be trying to improve the forum but immediately set about describing everyone who behaves in a manner not approved by them in strongly pejorative terms. To broadly take the issue of 'negativity' in threads and describe it as a 'bash-fest' drummed up by 'trolls, whiners, and the overall dregs of the community'. This is just as much an aggressive moan at the community as any 'GW bash fest' thread is, except the accusations of trolling are made from the off by the OP. Simply conflating the genuine criticism with negativity-trolling is just not reasonable. I see the OP claims that he is okay with genuine criticism, but my issue is that this seems a back peddle from his first post, but generally I think his threshold of where criticism turns into trolling is a lot lower than most people.
Most people probably think their behaviour is 'about right' and that those worse than them are trolls and those a lot better are white knights or snotty about rules. The job of the mods is to try and maintain a benchmark for behaviour following forum guidelines and not in accordance with their personal preferences for which topics are okay to be discussed, and the manner in which people write posts.
My question is this: how much responsibility does the community have as a whole in this?
100%.
Hate is not the opposite of love, apathy is.
If you don't like GW anymore, stop playing their games and talking about them. Just let it go.
This argument, that if you don't like what GW do you should stop participating, doesn't make a lot of sense. It's entirely possible to like the game and the figures and the community, but not like the company itself. Turn this logic around, if people don't like Dakka perhaps they should just leave. Don't want to? Your reasons will probably be similar to those that 'hate' GW but still want to be part of it.
The only point to this sub-forum is to bash GW. Sometimes I like defending them, simply because the level of vitriol directed at them is so easy to turn on its head. The fact is not that all critisism of GW is badly thought out or poorly articulated, it's that, as I know from experience, a post that disagrees with an anti-GW post will get you flamed out of the thread. An anti-GW post will get one or two other posts agreeing. A post sticking up for GW will get you 6 or 7 posts, usually 2 or 3 of which are worthwhile, with the rest questioning my sexuality, intelligence or age.
This argument, that if you don't like what GW do you should stop participating, doesn't make a lot of sense. It's entirely possible to like the game and the figures and the community, but not like the company itself. Turn this logic around, if people don't like Dakka perhaps they should just leave. Don't want to? Your reasons will probably be similar to those that 'hate' GW but still want to be part of it.
Dakka is a community, not a commodity.
Warhammer is a commodity, not a community.
A community is an ever-shifting matrix of over-lapping opinions and ideas formed by the minds of your contemporaries within that community. A commodity is something you choose to buy or not. If you don't like it, don't buy it. Few people will leave a community simply because they don't like one aspect of it. Nor will they spend all their time whinging about it - one thread about GW hatred on dakka hardly compares to the dozens or so that are created or threadjacked in any given week that hate GW with a passion.
BryllCream wrote: A commodity is something you choose to buy or not. If you don't like it, don't buy it..
Except with something like 40K, it's not quite that simple, because it's not just a one-off purchase. It's a continued investment of time, effort, art and money. After years of putting uncounted amounts of each of those into this game, it's not as simple as saying 'Yep, I don't like what GW have become, or what they are doing with the game' and quitting. There's too much invested.
And so we complain. Not about everything, because GW still do enough right to keep (some of ) us interested. But all that stuff that they're doing wrong just piles up, and makes the whole experience less pleasant. And so we complain. Because we want this game to still be enjoyable, because we have too much invested to just walk away from it.
For a community that just hates on GW we sure have a lot of subforums dedicated solely to 40K and WFB.
Dakka discussion is to talk about stuff. By the very nature of it there will be "GW bashing", because when people talk they will disagree. How long do you think a "GW is great" thread would go on? There really isn't anything to talk about in one. The first guy posts "GW is a good company", then everybody agrees, then the discussion is done.
People will talk about what they are passionate about. If GW makes then mad, they will talk about being mad. There is plenty of GW love on Dakka. News and Rumors has lots of people with good comments on new releases. We have multipage threads about novels, forge world, and the other releases. Most of the "GW is good" threads will be related to specific events and end up in N&R. Most "GW is bad" threads will end up in Dakka Discussions, simply because they are two very different type if conversations."
We have 13 sub-forums dedicated to GW. Lots of people here praise GW, lots of them don't. Like I said before, Dakka is not a pro-GW forum and maybe not even a GW-centric forum anymore. If you don't like people that don't like something you like, then maybe you should rethink this whole being on the Internet thing.
Thanks for taking the time to write that Yakface, I think it's something that will strike a chord with most of us who spend time on the forum.
I think the old adage 'there is no smoke without fire' is one that can be applied easily to the amount of negativity directed towards GW. And I can know this as I remember a time, as a member on the old Relic and Bolter & Chainsword forums for more than 10 years, when this negativity was on nothing like the same scale as it is now. I also know that I can look around at many other forums that are not involved with GW, and find very little negativity although, funnily enough, when that company does something that the community does not like there then people will have issue with it, and make a negative comment.
I think that no doubt there are people who will ride the bandwagon and make a comment to fit in - we're subject here to the same social norms as the playground, the office, or whatever. In the same way, you get people deliberately playing devils advocate/being facetious (one of whom just admitted to doing so a couple of posts above me! ) just to get a rise, because they feel the comments are unjust or whatever. That being said, as Insankiak (and a couple of other posts above me have said) its a mistake to tar all negative posts with the same brush. Speaking personally, I have a massive collection of GW stuff, and the company's products have brought me countless hours of enjoyment over the years. But, that doesn't stop me from being deeply disappointed by being unable to purchase their goods while living abroad (with their trade embargo), or the drop in quality that accompanied Finecast. So I voiced my displeasure about those things. If neither of those policy decisions had been enacted by GW, then I wouldn't have had need to write about them - can you see where I'm going with this?
I do agree that something of a 'Zeitgeist' often forms about a particular product - in this case the general negativity surrounding GW. But, you could say if that is the case then at least they had that good reputation before hand - the dedicated fanbase that formed because of their prior accomplishments. And I think it is those fans, as Yakface pointed out in his post, that are now railing against the far more corporate-focused GW of the past 5 years or more. Of course however, the ability exists within GW to turn things around, start doing things to pull those fans back towards them, and then eventually for the atmosphere of the forum to follow suit and reflect that.
I might be too new to DakkaDakka to accurately judge this but I don't get where the OP is getting at.
Kung Fu Hamster wrote: It's no secret that the 40K community is somewhat... vocal in voicing its displeasure concerning just about anything. Currently, the biggest 40K forums tend towards negativity. Take this site for example; it's practically impossible to have a 40K-related discussion (or any topic that even tangenitally touches on GW) without trolls, whiners, and the overall dregs of the community taking the conversation over and turning it into a GW bash-fest with almost no effort. The signal-to-noise ratio seems to be getting much worse with almost each passing day.
Apart from the obvious statement that internet commenting always attracts more negative than positive statements, for various reasons, and apart from general observation that most of the anger directed at GW seems to be pretty much justified (in terms of "is a valid moral or factual evaluation of GW's practices"), the statement I highlighted seems to be empirically wrong, or at least does not correspond to my observations (I acknowledge the difference).
I read several of the sub-forums on DakkaDakka, and the amount of anti-GW trolling, irrational GW-bashing etc is hardly noticable.
Yes, there is a lot of criticism, and sometimes it might not be phrased in the most intelligent way, and you can read the same arguments again and again, and you might find that tedious, but as long as they are not completely unfounded and abusive, I just get over it/ignore it. We are talking about GW, and they do not make it very easy to love them, despite what one might think about the game itself, or the fluff, or the hobby aspect of modelling/converting/creating an army.
The OP might have a point of people easily getting OT (e.g. a thread of a painted miniature gets hijacked by people wanting to talk about how that miniature's profile is broken or how expensive it is), and that can make a discussion turn sour. But when that happens the thread usually gets closed pretty fast.
Kung Fu Hamster wrote: My question is this: how much responsibility does the community have as a whole in this?
Is the community a thinking being? Can "the community" act as one?
Kung Fu Hamster wrote: Should we rely on mods and forum owners to dictate the overall tone of discourse, or do community members bear some of the responsibility for the current state of affairs? If community members as a while bear some of the burden, what can be done to improve things?
Of course, the overall tone is laid out by mods and forum owners! They are called "forum rules". And if someone violates those, it is up to the mods' discretion to decide if a warning, a post-delete or something more severe is appropriate.
If you want to question the mods' discipline in doing that, you should address it like that. To them.
And what other responsibility can single forum members have then the one over their own posts? I can - and did - remind someone of sticking on topic and pointing to PM as a means of OT discussions but other than that, I am not responsible for other people's posts nor can I influence them otherwise, except by using "alarm a mod" button.
Kung Fu Hamster wrote: It's no secret that the 40K community is somewhat... vocal in voicing its displeasure concerning just about anything. Currently, the biggest 40K forums tend towards negativity. Take this site for example; it's practically impossible to have a 40K-related discussion (or any topic that even tangenitally touches on GW) without trolls, whiners, and the overall dregs of the community taking the conversation over and turning it into a GW bash-fest with almost no effort. The signal-to-noise ratio seems to be getting much worse with almost each passing day.
Different communities face this same issue, and have dealt with them in different ways. The official World of Warcraft forums, for example, are just as bad as most 40K forums. Blizzard has made some half-hearted attempts to clean things up, but nowadays the only people who spend and real amount of time there are trolls and whiners. Going to the WoW forums looking for a real discussion is an exercise in futility and sifting through pubescent complaining and obnoxiousness. Other communities suffer from this malaise as well, and have dealt with it in different ways. The Freebootaz, for example, charge a nominal fee for access to their forums which has proven to be an effective barrier against trolls. While this may not be an effective solution for every 40K forum, it still works well enough to improve the signal-to-noise ratio to be useful.
My question is this: how much responsibility does the community have as a whole in this? Should we rely on mods and forum owners to dictate the overall tone of discourse, or do community members bear some of the responsibility for the current state of affairs? If community members as a while bear some of the burden, what can be done to improve things?
IF GW didn't make it so easy to turn every conversation about them into a bashfest then you'd see a dramatic downturn in the whiners and trolls.
The Community has a huge responsibility in this because without us, there'd be no forums to speak of. Not all of us are adults here, quite a few are teenagers but learning how to act in a public place is just one step to growing up. Whether or not a community member has gotten that far is evident in what they post, how they post it, etc. Be intelligent, Be curteous, and Be Adult about about what you post.
Tigerone wrote: Some of the most vocal "bashers" have not spent 200 a year on GW. They spend more time on Dakka than they ever have or will painting or playing.
To be fair, many of the most vocal bashers are no longer playing GW games. Their money is going to other game systems, models, and (maybe) chicks.
I joined Dakka to see pretty pictures in the gallery and ask questions (as I was new to 40k when I joined). I've gotten into my share of inflammatory threads, and I'm not proud of that. I think that I, like a lot of people here, are invested in their hobby. And by "invested" I mean money spent on models, hours spent assembling and painting, money spent on Black Library books, time spent reading those books, time spent building lists, time spent playing games, time spent discussing a rules system that is "open to interpretation" in many areas, to put it nicely.
This particular forum has members surrounding the globe. The sun never sets on Dakka, to turn a phrase. You have doctors nurses, bus boys, engineers, blue collar, white collar, married with kids, engaged, forever alone, seniors with one foot in AARP, high school kids, and everything in between.
Throw all of these people on the internet with general anonymity, varying degrees of passion about "their" hobby, experiences with G-Dub or local tournaments, and (let's be honest) a rather loose rules system with codecies that are NOT balanced against each other, and you have a powder keg of emotions and vitriol and angst ready to go off at the slightest perceived insult of "their" hobby.
What can we do? Make love, not hateful posts. Try not to assume that the other person is trolling you or insulting your hobby and listen to them as though they were your buddy that you game with and share beers with.
Unless they're railing on the Horus Heresy Forge World books. feth those people!
People find it easier to complain than to compliment. It's human nature to express displeasure when things are not as you'd like them, because when things are going as you'd like them, you're too busy enjoying yourself and going about your business to complain.
OP, there are certainly a few of us who are more vocal than others, I'm usually happy to share my thoughts on most subjects. I've probably trolled issues or individuals online before, due to personal dislike. But in my criticisms of GW, no, that's my opinion as a consumer of the products, as a customer and a long time one at that. You want to know why I voice that here? Because unlike many companies, GW provides me with no framework for vocalizing to them, they have made it clear that they know they make the best minis in the world and don't require my input or consumer feedback.
Now let me make something really clear, GW is a many headed hydra, when I go at GW, when I rail (which, due to 'Kirby Fatigue' has been steadily decreasing year on year, from previous fiery vitriol in years past to a Charlie Brown resigned 'good grief' more recently), I am principally targeting 'Corporate' GW. I happen to like 'Creative' GW, I know, through various media, some of the team, past and present, and I get somewhat defensive of them when I hear personal attacks directed at these guys, because they are fellow hobbyists with the good fortune to work at something they love. I don't always agree with them and I've had long discussions with a couple of them about 6th edition's direction because I didn't like it. Them making a ruleset I disliked in comparison to the previous edition did not cause me to hate them, just to disagree. I disagree with my wife from time to time, I'd still draw down the sun from the sky for her, not seeing eye to eye is why we're people and not ants.
Onto the GW I dislike. Corporate GW, the company that seems to behave like Weyland Yutani if Weyland Yutani made toy soldiers and was actually a fairly tiny company... It's arrogant, aggressive, treats it's own employees at middle management and below like crap, treats it's fanbase worse than crap, exploits, manipulates and bullies. Don't tell me that other companies behave like that, I was the complaint coordinator for a multinational company a great deal larger than GW and if we pulled their crap and treated our customers like that, we'd have been out of business within the month.
This community isn't daft. There are likely some less than stellar intellects among it, but it's overall IQ is likely to be higher than a random group of people of the same volume, due to the nature of the hobby and who it appeals to. These people do not appreciate being used and ill treated and GW is entirely guilty of doing that. Just as there is a constant effort by GW to recruit among the younger demographic, there is the older demographic falling out of that brief affair, taking a look around and experiencing that satori moment of 'wow, that was gakky', for one reason or another. Perhaps they got halfway through their second army and realized they needed to take out a mortgage to finish it due to the most recent price hike, perhaps they took days and weeks of work to set up a GW fansite, dedicated to their particular favorite game and were rewarded by the threat of court action, perhaps they just tired of returning the same miniature 20 times to get one that wasn't a bubbly, limbless mess, perhaps they live abroad and watch their country's sales prices treated as a test bed for the latest gonad-squeezing experimental price hike, perhaps they got sick of being treated as second class because they'd gone into the shop and been treated as second class because they were just on their rounds to pick up a couple of paints and were unaware of the crippling sales targets the poor buggers behind the till are being forced to meet, perhaps they were one of those poor 'redshirts' and learnt the hard way about how the company deludes it's self with bizarre 40k styled rhetoric about 'summary executions' for individuals not meeting sales targets.... Meh, the list goes on. The company is bizarre and twisted and when people realize that and look at it's behavior, they get pissed off.
Some folks get angry for a long time, for me, as I said, that hellfire and brimstone has died a death and all I can summon up for GW now is tired contempt. I believe the company is on a steady decline, it's upsetting for me and for lots of others because we really really want to love that company, we used to love it.
OP, I'm not a troll about my dislike of the company, I'm not a dreg, I'm a disgruntled customer sharing my experiences and feelings with other disgruntled customers. The reason you hear so much negativity is there is so much to be negative about. If you don't like that, you might be better served by asking yourself why these people are all so pissed off or jaded, rather than grumbling about people grumbling...
I have put 22 years of time and spending's on GW, to see my favorite system seller go from a beloved company by fans for fans to a corporate culture of milking the customer as much as possible. Then yes i think that i am in the right to voice my ire.
The Reason why GW is still making money is that many of the long time fans already spend too much time and money, to just dump GW, those figures have emotional value to a lot of us (IMHO).
I have spent a lot of money and time on 40k only to be made to feel like I don't matter beyond the starting purchase. I like the fluff, the worlds, and how much of a legacy GW has made with their games for the community. So when GW goes and starts to act the bully, or only cares about attracting warm bodies, or treats people like they are the problem, I complain.
When GW hands me crap, I'm not going to make crapade.
GW really brings it on themselves when they strut around bullying people in our minis wargame community because they have the finances to do so.
WarOne wrote: Do you think DCMs have more investment that regular posters to help self-police themselves and in turn help improve the forum conversations?
Not particularly, no.
Personally, I became a DCM simply because I like the site and wanted to support it. I don't feel that this changes the fact that people have opinions and that I'm going to disagree with many of them. As long as this is done within the strictures of forum rules I think posters should follow their bliss. That said, my ignore list grows daily and there's parts of the forum that I avoid entirely due to the fact that they are a complete haters' ball most of the time.
You can have ethical arguments, well educated arguments..... wait thats not right either. You can have a conversation about the pros and cons of a company.
Heroclix (wizkids) has had the same issues as GW, price inflation for less product. Questionable quality control, catering to the new crowd instead of the loyalest. The forums are much the same, Its either your a reasonable hater with the right to dislike the company OR your a crazy Kool Aid drinker that has to much expendable income and no logical spending habits. There seems to be no middle ground, just like politics and sports.
WarOne wrote: Do you think DCMs have more investment that regular posters to help self-police themselves and in turn help improve the forum conversations?
Not particularly, no.
Personally, I became a DCM simply because I like the site and wanted to support it. I don't feel that this changes the fact that people have opinions and that I'm going to disagree with many of them. As long as this is done within the strictures of forum rules I think posters should follow their bliss. That said, my ignore list grows daily and there's parts of the forum that I avoid entirely due to the fact that they are a complete haters' ball most of the time.
Sad but true.
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d-usa wrote: We should make that a fund-raiser. The Hater's Ball and wargaming weekend.
I doubt you would cover the printing cost of the tickets.
Personally I've not bought anything from GW for a couple of years now and cut down drastically some time even before that, mostly because of the way I feel GW as a company are acting, partly because of the cost, partly because I don't think that most of the new kits are very good, and also because I have started buying into other systems (which are awesome, made and run by awesome companies, and have awesome fanbases ).
When GW does something I like, I might post positively about them, when they do something I don't like, I almost certainly will post negatively about them... as has been mentioned, people are far more likely to post negatively about something that they don't like than positively about something and that is reflected well in the comments about GW in this and most other forums.
I feel that Dakka does a reasonably good job at making sure the negativity doesn't just take over everything and curtails the most obnoxious posts. However, just because someone is being negative about something you are positive about, doesn't mean they are attacking or trolling you...
My biggest thanks to Dakka has been the fact that you can really say what you think, and that this community has introduced me to many new ideas. I am playing games from companies that I have really heard of prior to joining. I might have seen them on the shelves before, but talking to users here got me educated and opened my eyes that there is more to the tabletop gaming hobby than GW.
But this community also gave me lots of neat ideas for 40K. Without Dakka I would not have started and painted a small True Scale Space Marine army and played in one of the biggest 40K tournaments in the US. I got to spend with the best bunch of strangers I could ever meet online, played some great games of 40K, had a round table with Black Library authors...all things I would have never got to do if it wasn't for this community. And guess what? A lot of the folks that are super passionate about GW, who spend a big chunk of money flying up there, staying up there, building an army for the event (with lots of commission stuff) are some of the folks you will see "hating" on here. They are voicing their opinion because they care.
I started with 2nd edition, when 40K was silly and 'fun'. When White Dwarf was full of ideas and content, with ideas to scratch build stuff. I played 40K when they had the fun black and white magazine full of scenarios, short stories, campaigns, and fan fiction. I played it when the website had a full bitz section where you could get the pieces for whatever conversion you could think off.
We don't "hate GW" because it's cool or hip or fun. I "hate GW" because for me it almost feels like someone with whom I have had a relationship with since 1994 has changed and become somebody completely different. I remember the good times, and the thrifting apart hurts. This year I decided that I really can't afford GW anymore, and after all these years it truly hurts and feels a bit like a break up.
That's why we "hate". If you want to call remembering where the company came from and what it used to be and comparing it to GW now hating.
Kung Fu Hamster wrote: It's no secret that the 40K community is somewhat... vocal in voicing its displeasure concerning just about anything. Currently, the biggest 40K forums tend towards negativity. Take this site for example; it's practically impossible to have a 40K-related discussion (or any topic that even tangenitally touches on GW) without trolls, whiners, and the overall dregs of the community taking the conversation over and turning it into a GW bash-fest with almost no effort. The signal-to-noise ratio seems to be getting much worse with almost each passing day.
Peregrine wrote: Your problem is that you confuse legitimate criticism with being a "bash-fest" and expect that even when GW does stupid things the majority of talk about GW should be praise. GW-related forums will stop being a "bash-fest" when GW stops constantly doing things that deserve criticism.
I think that the community at large needs to learn the difference between "bash-fest" and "legitimate criticism".
Legitimate criticism does not need some attempted zinger remark about Mat Ward, Fineprices, or any number of the normal silliness that you see in such threads.
Legitimate criticism is also not just quoting someone's remark--whether you agree with it or not--and replying with a "facepalm" Orkmoticon.
Legitimate criticism is replying to someone's remark with a reply consisting of some measure of substance.
I agree that the bashing is off the charts, especially in the News and Rumors forums. It's growing increasingly tiresome to hear people complaining of being "insulted" by GW releases that they don't want to buy, and I think this sort of immaturity really detracts from the environment of the forum. If there were an alternate forum that had a higher standard of discussion in their News and Rumors section I would strongly consider migrating there.
It's possible of course that this type of forum doesn't exist at all, which is a shame. I like Dakka overall and I think it also has strong potential to become a community hub for the entire wargaming hobby, not just GW/Warmahordes. But I'd be a lot happier if we had higher standards.
Kingsley wrote: Could you please explain how making products that you don't want is "a slap in the face?" If you don't want to buy something, just don't buy it and move on. Why feel insulted?
Because some of us, despite GW's best efforts, still love the hobby and want it to succeed.
My question is this: how much responsibility does the community have as a whole in this?
100%.
Hate is not the opposite of love, apathy is.
If you don't like GW anymore, stop playing their games and talking about them. Just let it go.
Especially when specific people who post 10-15 times in a single 24 hours in *ONLY* GW and 40k threads are posters who claim 'I don't actually play 40k or GW games'.
I understand those people who claim to want to see their once great hobby restored to former glory and 'complain' to help... these other posters who just enjoy watching GW burn and are non-customers and just enjoy trolling the threads. Not at all constructive to those threads.
Ive been constantly insulted by the white knights, they are quite petty.
While some topics get old, i just don't click them, but it would hurt this forum a lot, I think, to silence people just because some don't agree that people are upset with GW and voicing their opinions.
No one's opinions are right or wrong, in that scenario.
Funny how the OP labels dakka users and tries to impose it's own moral agenda.
WWW is a big place so if you have concerns about this you are free to open a forum and actively control the negative trolls that we are.
It's like you are invited to a dinner at someone's house and say what they should cook a different meal for you.
What is even more funny is that by your own words your post on a hypothetical forum you control would be erased.
As long as you are polite I don't see divergent opinions = negativity.
Kingsley wrote: I agree that the bashing is off the charts, especially in the News and Rumors forums. It's growing increasingly tiresome to hear people complaining of being "insulted" by GW releases that they don't want to buy, and I think this sort of immaturity really detracts from the environment of the forum. If there were an alternate forum that had a higher standard of discussion in their News and Rumors section I would strongly consider migrating there.
It's possible of course that this type of forum doesn't exist at all, which is a shame. I like Dakka overall and I think it also has strong potential to become a community hub for the entire wargaming hobby, not just GW/Warmahordes. But I'd be a lot happier if we had higher standards.
For the sake of not repeating what has already been posted just a couple of comments before, did you not read Yakface and MGS's posts?
Can we therefore assume that you don't see any kind of causation between the quality of a product, the behaviour of a company, and its method of delivery, and the kind of reaction that creates with the wargaming fanbase?
Go and take a look at the Infinity forum, the Battlefront/Flames of War forum, the Warlord Games forum to name but three. All of them having nothing like the level of negativity expressed here (in the GW focused sections - other areas of the forum are fine) because those companies are generally regarded as doing the right thing with regards to the general field of producing a product for their customers, and all of the factors surrounding that. If it were possible to look at old internet posts on both this forum, Warseer, Relic & Portent or wherever from about 10 years ago you would see a general lack of negativity there as well.
In any case, I'll assume for a moment that you genuinely mean what you say, and you aren't just deliberately being facetious to get some kind of rise from the people who've tried to reason with you. As d-usa pointed out before, the 40k specific section of the forum generally has a lot less comments on GW's business practices, or at least more focus in that direction. Same too with other 40k focused forums that concentrate on a particular force, just modelling and painting or whatever. Those places might well have the 'higher-standards' you are looking for - if by that you mean a public forum that doesn't discuss prices, quality of miniatures & rules, international trading standards, WD quality, lack of releases, or the decline of GW's retail chain, then it could be that if you find a forum community that isn't aware of any of those issues, then there might not be a general atmosphere of negativity there either.
I'd also like to point out that when Wyrd was smoking an illegal substance during their Kickstarter, they managed to recover well enough to keep their player base happy and give encouraging signs about future projects.
GW gives us... a new price point of $85.00 for large monsters, no real WD content, and legal action toward people who aren't even doing anything related to their IP.
Kingsley wrote: I agree that the bashing is off the charts, especially in the News and Rumors forums. It's growing increasingly tiresome to hear people complaining of being "insulted" by GW releases that they don't want to buy, and I think this sort of immaturity really detracts from the environment of the forum. If there were an alternate forum that had a higher standard of discussion in their News and Rumors section I would strongly consider migrating there.
It's possible of course that this type of forum doesn't exist at all, which is a shame. I like Dakka overall and I think it also has strong potential to become a community hub for the entire wargaming hobby, not just GW/Warmahordes. But I'd be a lot happier if we had higher standards.
For the sake of not repeating what has already been posted just a couple of comments before, did you not read Yakface and MGS's posts?
Can we therefore assume that you don't see any kind of causation between the quality of a product, the behaviour of a company, and its method of delivery, and the kind of reaction that creates with the wargaming fanbase?
Go and take a look at the Infinity forum, the Battlefront/Flames of War forum, the Warlord Games forum to name but three. All of them having nothing like the level of negativity expressed here (in the GW focused sections - other areas of the forum are fine) because those companies are generally regarded as doing the right thing with regards to the general field of producing a product for their customers, and all of the factors surrounding that. If it were possible to look at old internet posts on both this forum, Warseer, Relic & Portent or wherever from about 10 years ago you would see a general lack of negativity there as well.
In any case, I'll assume for a moment that you genuinely mean what you say, and you aren't just deliberately being facetious to get some kind of rise from the people who've tried to reason with you. As d-usa pointed out before, the 40k specific section of the forum generally has a lot less comments on GW's business practices, or at least more focus in that direction. Same too with other 40k focused forums that concentrate on a particular force, just modelling and painting or whatever. Those places might well have the 'higher-standards' you are looking for - if by that you mean a public forum that doesn't discuss prices, quality of miniatures & rules, international trading standards, WD quality, lack of releases, or the decline of GW's retail chain, then it could be that if you find a forum community that isn't aware of any of those issues, then there might not be a general atmosphere of negativity there either.
The lack of negativity on those forums has far more to do with the fact that there are VASTLY fewer players of said games compared to GW. The negativity will grow with the size of the company, it's pretty much a given as the more people you have participating in your forums the more negative people you will attract and they will in fact poison the well so to speak and drag the level of conversation down. People always give the little guy tons of slack, once they hit even half of GW's size it won't be that kind. Hell, if GW had the stocking problems of PP Dakka would probably go Nuclear and yet PP is pretty much given a free ride.
The lack of negativity on those forums has far more to do with the fact that there are VASTLY fewer players of said games compared to GW. The negativity will grow with the size of the company, it's pretty much a given as the more people you have participating in your forums the more negative people you will attract and they will in fact poison the well so to speak and drag the level of conversation down.
I'd disagree - Dakka has a total of 69, 290 members. Thanks to the fact that Dakka has subforums for a variety of games - and are the actual official forums for two games - I think it's safe to assume not everyone comes here for GW games (especially from what I've seen down in the Off-topic area). I know I certainly don't.
PP's forum currently has a total of 57,877 members, and Battlefront has 57,723 members.
I'd say, then, that in the participation of players on forums, GW's at least near the amount of other relatively long-running and popular wargames. It is safe to say that GW and it's games are the most discussed on Dakka? Sure, but only because there's no official GW forum, and so there are better forums to go to for other games.
The lack of negativity on those forums has far more to do with the fact that there are VASTLY fewer players of said games compared to GW. The negativity will grow with the size of the company, it's pretty much a given as the more people you have participating in your forums the more negative people you will attract and they will in fact poison the well so to speak and drag the level of conversation down.
I'd disagree - Dakka has a total of 69, 290 members. Thanks to the fact that Dakka has subforums for a variety of games - and are the actual official forums for two games - I think it's safe to assume not everyone comes here for GW games (especially from what I've seen down in the Off-topic area). I know I certainly don't.
PP's forum currently has a total of 57,877 members, and Battlefront has 57,723 members.
I'd say, then, that in the participation of players on forums, GW's at least near the amount of other relatively long-running and popular wargames. It is safe to say that GW and it's games are the most discussed on Dakka? Sure, but only because there's no official GW forum, and so there are better forums to go to for other games.
marielle wrote: Orktavius, a word to the wise, the thread died when the usual suspects arrived on page 3.
Well, Yakface arrived on page 3, I did and a few others.
Who are you referring to mate? And in what way did they 'kill' the thread?
The thread died when the OP self destructed around the middle of the second page after accessing the DCMs only forums somehow.
Since then, we've been hashing out opinions on the issue but otherwise unless the OP comes back to address the criticisms, it will end soon.
Speaking of that, what was that supposed to demonstrate? That the DCM forums are filled with discussions that take seriously complaints about Dakka and its atmosphere?
Games Workshop, Blizzard has nothing to do with the bull fest. They don't need to do anything. Stop assuming "someone else" to do it. That is the lamest attitude, be a man and direct something towards progress.
In our modern society boys are finding it incredibly hard transitioning into manhood and finding happiness within themselves.
Basically boys, guys, men these days are sexually frustrated, lonely, angry, depressed, bored because they are and don't find any support from other guys (friends, buddies, fathers, men in their families). Thus, we find this weak passive-agressive b.s. all over society and even on community boards where we rather seek (& provide) support, wisdom and praise.
Every guy must read "No More Mr. Nice Guy, by Robert A. Glover".
womprat49 wrote: Games Workshop, Blizzard has nothing to do with the bull fest. They don't need to do anything. Stop assuming "someone else" to do it. That is the lamest attitude, be a man and direct something towards progress.
In our modern society boys are finding it incredibly hard transitioning into manhood and finding happiness within themselves.
Basically boys, guys, men these days are sexually frustrated, lonely, angry, depressed, bored because they are and don't find any support from other guys (friends, buddies, fathers, men in their families). Thus, we find this weak passive-agressive b.s. all over society and even on community boards where we rather seek (& provide) support, wisdom and praise.
Every guy must read "No More Mr. Nice Guy, by Robert A. Glover".
With all the broad strokes that people have been making in this thread I'm surprised the brush has got any tar left on it...
Everyone can always stand to offer others a little more support, wisdom, and praise.
I really appreciate the thoughtful and constructive posts folks have made in this thread; I'd like to thank Kronk, MeanGreenStompa, and Yakface in particular for their time and sincerity.
I'd also like to thank all of you reading this in general for helping make this forum a great place to spend time. I know there is a good deal of negativity (and honestly, there always has been a fair bit of that, going back all the nearly fourteen years I've been on here), but there's also a great deal of positive, useful and friendly discussion as well. To some extent we fulfill our own prophecies about what kind of a forum it is or discussions we're going to have when we choose what we put out there, and which posts we're going to spend time focusing on and responding to. Each of us has the power to respond to and reinforce and encourage good posts and constructive discussion, and to ignore and marginalize puerile and unnecessarily-negative junk by not responding to it.
Mannahnin wrote: Everyone can always stand to offer others a little more support, wisdom, and praise.
I really appreciate the thoughtful and constructive posts folks have made in this thread; I'd like to thank Kronk, MeanGreenStompa, and Yakface in particular for their time and sincerity.
I'd also like to thank all of you reading this in general for helping make this forum a great place to spend time. I know there is a good deal of negativity (and honestly, there always has been a fair bit of that, going back all the nearly fourteen years I've been on here), but there's also a great deal of positive, useful and friendly discussion as well. To some extent we fulfill our own prophecies about what kind of a forum it is or discussions we're going to have when we choose what we put out there, and which posts we're going to spend time focusing on and responding to. Each of us has the power to respond to and reinforce and encourage good posts and constructive discussion, and to ignore and marginalize puerile and unnecessarily-negative junk by not responding to it.
And I would like to take the time to thank you as well Mannahnin, If all of the mods on this website had as much common sense and impartiality as you do, standing as a bulwark against those that practice flagrant hypocrisy and cronyism, this website would be even better than it is now, and one of your most witty and handsome posters would be free to post in all of it.
marielle wrote: Orktavius, a word to the wise, the thread died when the usual suspects arrived on page 3.
Explain yourself. We seemed to be having reasonable discussion until this post.
The funny thing is that Marielle often posts some really interesting & knowledgeable stuff in the history gaming section of the board. But anything regarding GW and it becomes his own version of the Ardennes offensive (there we go, appropriate history reference where you can draw your own comparisons from that battle + finally an invocation of Godwin's Law )
I've not wandered into Dakka Discussions for... well, years, really, other than to add the occasional remark to the D6 Generation threads. But I was looking for something to distract me from Call the Midwife (all too emotionally fraught for me) and fancied a good argument, so here I am.
So let me wind this back to the OP and the point of the thread: to what extent is the community responsible for its own atmosphere and attitude?
I'm going to take this back to tacks and make what is the obvious point (although no one's mentioned it to date): the "community" cannot be held responsible for anything. Only individuals can be held responsible for their words and attitudes and, in that, well, this is the Internet. Our only responsibility - and arguably not even that - is to be honest.
It is a fact of all communities that the loudest voices are invariably raised in complaint, and although Games Workshop may not, corporately be the most involved with its public, but don't make the mistake of believing that its many, many employees aren't reading this, nor that they don't take the opinions of this and other forums to heart. They are just smart enough to not post openly or, indeed, often.
Nevertheless, however much the opinions of Dakkaites and others may personally hurt individual writers and designers, corporately, GWloves your hate. Speaking as the owner-writer-designer-sculptor-artist of a very, very small, very, very young games company, I would be positively delighted to have GW's volume of negative feedback.
In fact, just the other day, I had one of my games dismissed by "not as good as [another game I wrote, currently not available for sale]". Which is the opposite of damning with faint praise - praising with faint criticism, perhaps? Because just about all of those complaining have bought their products, play their games and aren't stopping, just because they're complaining. Complaints come from the heart. Hate isn't the opposite of love, after all.
So no, the community isn't responsible, and individuals need not moderate their complaints.
Kung Fu Hamster wrote: It's no secret that the 40K community is somewhat... vocal in voicing its displeasure concerning just about anything. Currently, the biggest 40K forums tend towards negativity. Take this site for example; it's practically impossible to have a 40K-related discussion (or any topic that even tangenitally touches on GW) without trolls, whiners, and the overall dregs of the community taking the conversation over and turning it into a GW bash-fest with almost no effort. The signal-to-noise ratio seems to be getting much worse with almost each passing day.
Different communities face this same issue, and have dealt with them in different ways. The official World of Warcraft forums, for example, are just as bad as most 40K forums. Blizzard has made some half-hearted attempts to clean things up, but nowadays the only people who spend and real amount of time there are trolls and whiners. Going to the WoW forums looking for a real discussion is an exercise in futility and sifting through pubescent complaining and obnoxiousness. Other communities suffer from this malaise as well, and have dealt with it in different ways. The Freebootaz, for example, charge a nominal fee for access to their forums which has proven to be an effective barrier against trolls. While this may not be an effective solution for every 40K forum, it still works well enough to improve the signal-to-noise ratio to be useful.
My question is this: how much responsibility does the community have as a whole in this? Should we rely on mods and forum owners to dictate the overall tone of discourse, or do community members bear some of the responsibility for the current state of affairs? If community members as a while bear some of the burden, what can be done to improve things?
So you ask us to Ignore all the shortcomings of Games Workshops Products, and Act as if nothing is wrong? is this what are you saying?
The thing is I personaly want "Tiny tim" with his mommys credit card to buy another product then Games Workshops. Why? because I personaly think Games Workshop has a broken system, 40k being the worst of them. I also think that it cost way to much money to get into GW games.. And in the end the rules are just so borken its not even fun to play. There are other much better options. Forums is a way that I personaly can voice my opinion on the subject. That you personaly dont like what I have to say, or call me a troll dosent change the fact that I dont agree with you. It also dosent change the fact that I have evidence to back up my claims about why 40k for example is a broken game system.
Facts will always triumph in the end. Blizzard still has a decent game in WoW... You can not compare Blizzard forum trolling to concerned customers voicing there opinion about why they think people should devote their energi into other better products. Its better to compare what is happening on these forums to what you would read if you visit a Review site. For example I'm looking to buy a new TV.. I see this Samsung that looks interesting, I go on an independent forum, and soon find out that this particular model is plagued with manafacturing errors, and if I'm looking for a 52 videscreen with these specifications a few other brands might be better suited for my needs. Then you come along and say that I should Buy Samsung, and the only reason you give for why. Is "ITs samsung"..
"The signal-to-noise ratio seems to be getting much worse with almost each passing day" you should ask yourself why? I have the answer the veterans of this Hobby are dead tired of Games Workshop. We have Zero Respect left for them, and we will no longer advocate their products. This is what happens when you ignore you loyal customer base... Dont uptade your rules, and release Unbalanced cheezy rules. 10 Years ago there were no real options to games workshop, today there are alot of better games out there. And I for one want the NEW kidds that come into the hobby to play these games instead... They are cheaper to get into, they are more balanced and more user friendly.. Most of them are superior when it comes to the "rules" then any GW game. GW still have nice looking miniatures but they are way overpriced for what you get...
The lack of negativity on those forums has far more to do with the fact that there are VASTLY fewer players of said games compared to GW. The negativity will grow with the size of the company, it's pretty much a given as the more people you have participating in your forums the more negative people you will attract and they will in fact poison the well so to speak and drag the level of conversation down.
I'd disagree - Dakka has a total of 69, 290 members. Thanks to the fact that Dakka has subforums for a variety of games - and are the actual official forums for two games - I think it's safe to assume not everyone comes here for GW games (especially from what I've seen down in the Off-topic area). I know I certainly don't.
PP's forum currently has a total of 57,877 members, and Battlefront has 57,723 members.
I'd say, then, that in the participation of players on forums, GW's at least near the amount of other relatively long-running and popular wargames. It is safe to say that GW and it's games are the most discussed on Dakka? Sure, but only because there's no official GW forum, and so there are better forums to go to for other games.
M:tG also has a vastly larger playerbase than 40k, and yet you'll see much less criticism on their official forums. Negativity wouldn't grow exponentially if there are no reasons to be negative to the company or product.
So the OP has been here barely a year, has posted very little and shared nothing from what I can see......and bashes the site? Good form. If DAKKA isnt for you, then sorry man, find another? I can say, yes there are bad spots to DAKKA, and awesome spots in DAKKA. This would be like me buying a brand new car, driving it once a month for a year and bash the car company as a whole, because I can tell from my limited experience in said car, that the company sucks.
Sorry man, but you can easily google search another forum to talk in. You wont be missed
I'm rarely one to complain. but i can be shady. Using cunning to get around my problems rather than whine about them. I came to have fun. I come to dakka to have fun and see what fun other hobbyists and tabletop gamers are having. To build ideas that are fun and brainstorm more for the club i'm in. If all I see is the negative, I might as well not play and focus on my personal life.
d-usa wrote: And M:tG is aimed at the target demographic that might be the most likely to rage on the Internet for no real reason.
emphasis mine
That demographic encompasses most internet users. This isn't a demographic issue, but rather one of just anonymity. People are more likely to speak out about what's bothering them when there is little to no downside in doing so. Creating an account on this, or pretty much any forum, is extremely easy and does not divulge your actual identity if you don't want it to. Therein is the problem. When you piss moan and groan to a group of friends in person at some point they will tell you to cut it out; if it gets too bad they'll ostracize you.
On the internet though, if people stop listening all you have to do is create a new account and start over. It's about as close to living in a video game world where you can reset at will as we can get today.
On dakka you can still have enjoyable fluff/lore discussions in GW-related products. Unfortunately GW's war against its own customers has reduced everything except for the fluff (and FW products) to a terrible state. Overpriced, ascetically poor, low quality products ineptly marketed, bad rulesets, and secretly released.
I'm a BL guy by this point and not much else with regards to GW related products. Unfortunately GW's starting to infect BL with all this limited edition hardback novella crap.
I think the magic comparison is really good. There simply is less for the disaffected M:tG player to complain about. WotC simply does less stupid things and is better at game design.
Less bad things = less complaining about bad things.
The community responsibility is to shun bad behavior and laud good behavior. Whether that applies to sportsmanship, trades, or even that of the companies we support.
xraytango wrote: The community responsibility is to shun bad behavior and laud good behavior. Whether that applies to sportsmanship, trades, or even that of the companies we support.
You mean, The community should always bellieve the Propaganda?
LoL, How dare you RD, I mean really, do you know what it's like to have Dr. Pepper shoot out your nose and all over the monitor, not kidding. Painful experience!
agustin wrote: I think the magic comparison is really good. There simply is less for the disaffected M:tG player to complain about. WotC simply does less stupid things and is better at game design.
Less bad things = less complaining about bad things.
Exactly.
Think of it as any relationship, if its constantly full of hatred and strife it wont last long, where as you can deal with the occassional problem as that is expected. GWs relationship with its customers follows the cycle of abuse almost perfectly, they abuse and they have people apologize for them.
d-usa wrote: And M:tG is aimed at the target demographic that might be the most likely to rage on the Internet for no real reason.
emphasis mine
That demographic encompasses most internet users. This isn't a demographic issue, but rather one of just anonymity. People are more likely to speak out about what's bothering them when there is little to no downside in doing so. Creating an account on this, or pretty much any forum, is extremely easy and does not divulge your actual identity if you don't want it to. Therein is the problem. When you piss moan and groan to a group of friends in person at some point they will tell you to cut it out; if it gets too bad they'll ostracize you.
On the internet though, if people stop listening all you have to do is create a new account and start over. It's about as close to living in a video game world where you can reset at will as we can get today.
I may not always succeed, but I endeavor to just walk away without participating in arguments over forums if I don't have something constructive to contribute. I don't think I've ever seen someone stop in the middle of a heated debate, say "oh, I think you're right," and change sides. Certainly not on a forum.
If there is any responsibility to the community, it is for us to grow up. If we want our online communities to be pleasant, we have to stop contributing to the parts that drag it down.
Think of it like a subdivision. We don't want any littering in our subdivision, we hate the look of the grass with a bunch of garbage on it. Trolling and flame wars are like your neighbor coming by and throwing beer cans on your lawn. Even the harsh snarkiness we get from people who are answering a question they feel that they've answered a million times before feels a little like an orange peel tossed in the yard. However, we don't do the community any favors by going over to our neighbor's yard and throwing garbage on their lawn in return. Even though we, in this case, didn't start it, we have to refuse to retaliate. Yes, that means letting people be wrong. I started out this response with several quotes from people I wanted to gently correct on things I felt they were saying that were factually inaccurate. After much thought, I deleted them. The people would only get angry, the issues were not relevant to the main topic, (which is how much responsibility the community bears for keeping the community civil) and doing so would not have served any purpose but making me feel better by declaring the rightness of my view of facts. It's very hard to let people just be wrong, especially when you know they're wrong, but sometimes it's the only way.
What must the community do to make things better? We have to act like adults. Part of acting like an adult means refusing to act like a child in response to other people acting like children. We have to be civil and courteous with one another, even when we don't want to and even when we don't mean it. Polite insincerity is part of what being a grown-up means.
We have to pick up our own garbage, too. If we screw up, we need to apologize. If someone apologizes to us, we need to acknowledge it. It's very difficult to admit when you're wrong, but people will usually be gracious about it. It is, of course, likewise important to be gracious when someone admits to being wrong, since we all make mistakes.
And if we want the community to improve, we have to take it a step further. To expand the metaphor, we have to pick up our neighbor's garbage. If we see someone get their head bitten off for asking a stupid question or making a stupid statement, we should attempt to deal with them from the assumption that there is a perfectly valid reason for what they said. We need to answer their (possibly stupid) questions, or ask for clarification on their (possibly stupid) declarations. And we need to do it without littering in the lawn of the person who bit their head off. If the poster turns out to be as foolish as the head-biter thought, then you can always alert a mod, and the mods will quietly sweep the garbage under the rug.
I'm the first to admit that I'm not perfect. I've littered, in my lawn and the lawns of my neighbors, but I try, and as a community, we must all try to do better if we want our community to be better. Of course, to quote Dennis Miller, "That's just my opinion, I could be wrong."
I was just going to post many of the same things, so you saved me some time. Suffice to say, I wholeheartedly agree with everything you posted.
What I would add, is exactly as you mention, the only thing that we as the '"community" can do is as an individual control our own behavior and understand that even when we vehemently disagree with someone's position it doesn't automatically make them a troll. And on top of that, language actually matters. Calling someone a troll, an apologist, a whiner, a hater, etc, are all incredibly charged words, especially in a written medium where people will always read those types of words as being 'said' in the most spiteful manner possible.
And the reality is, if you think someone really, truly is trying to be a troll when they're acting as a hardcore GW apologist or GW hater (for example), then there are only two possibilities:
1) They really are trying to troll.
2) They simply have a vastly different point of view from what you believe.
Once you lash back and call them a 'troll', 'apologist', 'hater', etc, what does this accomplish?
Well, if they're actually a troll then you've done exactly what they've wanted and you've pulled the conversation off track as undoubtedly the rest of the thread will now revolve around the petty argument between you and whomever else you pull into it.
Or alternatively, they just have a wildly different viewpoint than you, in which case calling them any of those 'charged' words actually makes YOU the troll, as they will now undoubtedly respond back to you in a super-heated manner, again driving the thread off-topic into argument.
So in either case, the only adult sensible course of action is to politely address the points in their post that you feel are wrong without using those charged words. Or if you really think they're a troll, then simply ignoring their post and letting it just be a tiny blip in the thread is the way to rob the true troll of their power.
And finally, as Jimsolo pointed out, the biggest key is realizing that you don't always have to be right. It is incredibly, incredibly rare to actually convince the person you've been arguing with on a forum of *anything*. If that's the goal of your posting, then you'd have better luck trying to walk across water. The only things you can really hope to achieve 95% of the time in a forum discussion is to convince *others*, those barely posting or not posting at all and just reading. And to do that, you only have to post in a sensible manner and make a coherent point ONCE. You don't need to rebut every single thing the other guy is saying, because again, you're never going to convince HIM/HER. But if you make sense and you make a good point then other people will read what you've written and agree and that's really I think all any of us really want when we have an online discussion. The problem is, we often don't get any clues that we've actually reached people with our posts because MOST people simply read forums and do not post. So you just have to trust that someone is reading and getting something from your posts and you don't actually need to get the last word and get your opponent to 'give up' and admit that you are the one that has been right the whole time.
It is OKAY if someone loves Games Workshop even if you hate it. And its okay if someone hates GW while you love it. Just use the ignore feature on their posts if you really can't stand reading them, or better yet, just accept that people have differing opinions and just be a positive bastion for whatever side of the fence you find yourself on.
Granted I love to play Warhammer 40k and Fantasy Battles, hell I have been in the hobby for about six years and I have just recently only started on DakkaDakka for less than a month so my opinion may be null or void, but GW really has no touch with the modern times (due to the lack of GW-runned forums) and how they refuse to speak with the press when bad things come up and isolate themselves (an example of this would be the recent Space Marines IP debacle). Granted they are still the largest Miniwargaming company around due to the fact they have their own stores to sell their product and the other companies like PP and Battlefield often have to rely on Independent Retails and Online to sell their product, although they are slowly growing to start giving GW some well needed competition that it needs to knock it down a few pegs soon. Personally I think it is well needed to have a discussion on what a company can do better, but it must be done in a calm matter I think, because no company is at all perfect, companies are ran by human beings (Whether they are greedy donkey-caves or not is how they present themselves) but GW needs to change, but sadly they just blatantly ignore what is said as critism (Bashing or Constructive) and buries its head in the sand and hopes it will all go away.
Now I have been getting into other systems like FoW and Warmachine, but I still love to play the Warhammer games and model/ paint the miniuratures) but I have been mostly buying GW products off Amazon and a few other sites so I can save a bit of money as much as I can since I have school and that because I find joy in Miniwargaming and reading about the lore of the games.
So I guess what I can say in short:
Do not be afraid to speak what you think what someone could do better within reason,enjoy your hobby and try to find cheaper and better alternatives if possible if you cannot afford to buy direct from the main supplier, and have fun here in the community and game(s) you play the best you can.
I know it seems a bit of bouncing around but I thought I throw out what was on my mind on it.
yakface wrote: just be a positive bastion for whatever side of the fence you find yourself on.
That's going to be rather difficult on Dakka since the mods are explicitly on one side of that fence.
What fence are you talking about? Explain yourself.
The "Threads filled with troll posters" Fence? I like that they are on the No side.
Examine their post history, including in this very thread. They are on the troll side.
The mods consistently come down on those people who are trolling. I have pressed the yellow triangle a handful of times to alert a Mod to a troll. There have only been 2 times a Mod hasn't stepped in and done something.
If a Mod is allowing a troll to continue it may be they are not aware the trolling is occurring because no one has clicked the yellow triangles. Or it might be that the 2 sides have devolved into simply trolling one another so why bother?
The Mods are entitled to an opinion. They are not judges or juries who must be completely unbiased. That is an unfair expectation of the mods. When mediating a dispute or trolling they should be as unbiased as possible, but that doesn't mean they should be limited in their contributions to actual conversations they are part of.
Kung Fu Hamster wrote: It's no secret that the 40K community is somewhat... vocal in voicing its displeasure concerning just about anything. Currently, the biggest 40K forums tend towards negativity. Take this site for example; it's practically impossible to have a 40K-related discussion (or any topic that even tangenitally touches on GW) without trolls, whiners, and the overall dregs of the community taking the conversation over and turning it into a GW bash-fest with almost no effort. The signal-to-noise ratio seems to be getting much worse with almost each passing day.
Different communities face this same issue, and have dealt with them in different ways. The official World of Warcraft forums, for example, are just as bad as most 40K forums. Blizzard has made some half-hearted attempts to clean things up, but nowadays the only people who spend and real amount of time there are trolls and whiners. Going to the WoW forums looking for a real discussion is an exercise in futility and sifting through pubescent complaining and obnoxiousness. Other communities suffer from this malaise as well, and have dealt with it in different ways. The Freebootaz, for example, charge a nominal fee for access to their forums which has proven to be an effective barrier against trolls. While this may not be an effective solution for every 40K forum, it still works well enough to improve the signal-to-noise ratio to be useful.
My question is this: how much responsibility does the community have as a whole in this? Should we rely on mods and forum owners to dictate the overall tone of discourse, or do community members bear some of the responsibility for the current state of affairs? If community members as a while bear some of the burden, what can be done to improve things?
You contradict yourself. You cannot claim a substantial proportion of the userbase frequently critisises GW and then call them 'the dregs of the community', when in reality it's the majority? it's a bit insulting really. Have you not grasped that, as mentioned prior to me, GW takes so much flak because its ignorance towards the community and its financial lunacy (in regards to the customer) warrant it?
Kingsley wrote: I agree that the bashing is off the charts, especially in the News and Rumors forums. It's growing increasingly tiresome to hear people complaining of being "insulted" by GW releases that they don't want to buy, and I think this sort of immaturity really detracts from the environment of the forum. If there were an alternate forum that had a higher standard of discussion in their News and Rumors section I would strongly consider migrating there.
It's possible of course that this type of forum doesn't exist at all, which is a shame. I like Dakka overall and I think it also has strong potential to become a community hub for the entire wargaming hobby, not just GW/Warmahordes. But I'd be a lot happier if we had higher standards.
Can we therefore assume that you don't see any kind of causation between the quality of a product, the behaviour of a company, and its method of delivery, and the kind of reaction that creates with the wargaming fanbase?
This type of insult is what I mean when I say that the tone is being lowered. Obviously I understand that the quality of a product and the behavior of its creators is tied to the reaction of the fanbase. However, I think that at some point these things became decoupled and there is now a general "Games Workshop does anything = bad" reaction.
Pacific wrote: Go and take a look at the Infinity forum, the Battlefront/Flames of War forum, the Warlord Games forum to name but three. All of them having nothing like the level of negativity expressed here (in the GW focused sections - other areas of the forum are fine) because those companies are generally regarded as doing the right thing with regards to the general field of producing a product for their customers, and all of the factors surrounding that. If it were possible to look at old internet posts on both this forum, Warseer, Relic & Portent or wherever from about 10 years ago you would see a general lack of negativity there as well.
My point is that that "general regard" doesn't seem to be based on factual behaviors or decisions, but rather the prevailing attitude and forum climate. At this point it seems that GW is being attacked because that's the "in thing" rather than because of what they actually do. A good example of this is the recent one-click bundle situation, which actually prompted my earlier remarks. The concept of being "insulted" by someone setting up a method of allowing people to buy their products more easily while not giving you a discount is truly bizarre to me. My conclusion is that such things are being attacked solely because GW does them. I think people here focus on the bad side of everything GW does-- I suspect that if you put the text of any other company's press release under a GW banner people would be insulting and mocking it.
Pacific wrote: In any case, I'll assume for a moment that you genuinely mean what you say, and you aren't just deliberately being facetious to get some kind of rise from the people who've tried to reason with you.
Again, comments like this detract from the discussion. Subtle insults are still insults.
Pacific wrote: As d-usa pointed out before, the 40k specific section of the forum generally has a lot less comments on GW's business practices, or at least more focus in that direction. Same too with other 40k focused forums that concentrate on a particular force, just modelling and painting or whatever. Those places might well have the 'higher-standards' you are looking for - if by that you mean a public forum that doesn't discuss prices, quality of miniatures & rules, international trading standards, WD quality, lack of releases, or the decline of GW's retail chain, then it could be that if you find a forum community that isn't aware of any of those issues, then there might not be a general atmosphere of negativity there either.
I'm not looking for a place that doesn't discuss the business side of the hobby. I'm looking for a place that does so in a reasonable and mature fashion without the prevailing negativity that can be found here. I believe that negativity is largely cultural and unjustified and would like to see a site or board with a different culture crop up, because many interesting discussions simply can't be had under the current climate on Dakka.
I am always amazed that it is easier to believe that a majority of critical people are wrong than it is to believe that one company makes bad decisions.
d-usa wrote: I am always amazed that it is easier to believe that a majority of critical people are wrong than it is to believe that one company makes bad decisions.
I don't believe that a majority of critical people are wrong; I believe that the prevailing environment of negativity and tolerance for unreasonably negative behavior has caused many people to retreat from the forums, so the "core group" of commentators on the forums are now largely negative in nature. In my view, the issues with the forums aren't related to taste but rather to culture.
Kingsley wrote: My point is that that "general regard" doesn't seem to be based on factual behaviors or decisions, but rather the prevailing attitude and forum climate. At this point it seems that GW is being attacked because that's the "in thing" rather than because of what they actually do. A good example of this is the recent one-click bundle situation, which actually prompted my earlier remarks. The concept of being "insulted" by someone setting up a method of allowing people to buy their products more easily while not giving you a discount is truly bizarre to me. My conclusion is that such things are being attacked solely because GW does them. I think people here focus on the bad side of everything GW does-- I suspect that if you put the text of any other company's press release under a GW banner people would be insulting and mocking it.
You're partly right here, but for the wrong reason.
People who have a low opinion of GW are certainly predisposed to dislike anything that they do. But if they go on to critisise GW, they're not necessarily doing it because it's the 'in thing'... they're doing it because they have a low opinion of GW, and so they perceive whatever it is that they are complaining about as being worthy of criticism.
I'm looking for a place that does so in a reasonable and mature fashion without the prevailing negativity that can be found here. I believe that negativity is largely cultural and unjustified and would like to see a site or board with a different culture crop up, because many interesting discussions simply can't be had under the current climate on Dakka.
I believe that on any board with a large base of veteran players, that's a pipe dream, to be honest. As much as you might dismiss it as immature and unwarranted, that negaitivity is there for a reason. It's the culture that GW have fostered through their actions over the last 10 to 15 years.
I would love to be more positive about GW, because I still enjoy playing 40K. But they give me very little reason to do so. For every little bit of god they do (finally republishing the Stormtalon and Dakkajet rules, for example) they take a giant leap backwards at the same time (publishing said rules in a very small print run $48 direct-only book, say).
It's certainly possible that I would be less critical of that book if I was better disposed towards GW... but that better disposition is something that they need to earn. You can't expect all of the players who feel a bit disillusioned by GW's treatment of them over the last decade to just decide to forget all of that and start over.
The lack of negativity on those forums has far more to do with the fact that there are VASTLY fewer players of said games compared to GW. The negativity will grow with the size of the company, it's pretty much a given as the more people you have participating in your forums the more negative people you will attract and they will in fact poison the well so to speak and drag the level of conversation down.
I'd disagree - Dakka has a total of 69, 290 members. Thanks to the fact that Dakka has subforums for a variety of games - and are the actual official forums for two games - I think it's safe to assume not everyone comes here for GW games (especially from what I've seen down in the Off-topic area). I know I certainly don't.
PP's forum currently has a total of 57,877 members, and Battlefront has 57,723 members.
I'd say, then, that in the participation of players on forums, GW's at least near the amount of other relatively long-running and popular wargames. It is safe to say that GW and it's games are the most discussed on Dakka? Sure, but only because there's no official GW forum, and so there are better forums to go to for other games.
M:tG also has a vastly larger player base than 40k, and yet you'll see much less criticism on their official forums. Negativity wouldn't grow exponentially if there are no reasons to be negative to the company or product.
Then let us look at the fan response to WotC in regards to 4th edition Dungeons & Dragons.
I hate 4e - I will make no pretense otherwise. A lot of people felt the same way.
Some people love the game (misguided though I think that they may be).
There is a strong polarization of those that hate 4e vs. those that love 4e.
And, before people bring up WotC bashing and edition wars... WotC had the good sense to listen when they saw the slip in player base that was engendered by the polarization of that base.
The rising sales of Pathfinder vs. stagnant sales of 4e was something that they saw and acted upon.
The way they bashed their older editions in the lead up to 4e alienated a large number of players - so they are taking steps to not make that same mistake again.
I do not much like what I have seen of 5e - but it does not fill me with the quivering nerd rage that 4e did - in part because WotC has been taking steps to mend some of the bridges that they burned.
While I am not likely to play 5e neither am I likely to talk about how much I hate the game - because WotC has had the courtesy to admit to having made a mistake.
I will not play 5e, but I can wish the company well - a healthy 5e will be a good thing for the hobby in general.
I do not see a corresponding willingness to listen to their base from GW. I do not see any care about how their actions impact the hobby. beyond filling coffers.
But, like WotC, it is not impossible for GW to turn things around.
I am not likely to play Warhammer or Warhammer 40K at this point, but a healthy, vibrant, and inviting Warhammer would be a good thing for the hobby. There needs to be an entry point, and right now GW has the name recognition.
I use Kings of War and Mordheim as gateway drugs entry points - a lower startup cost is a good thing.
If GW can turn around then it will be good for the hobby, even if I do personally prefer KoW.
d-usa wrote: Trolling has always resulted in bans.
Rudeness results in bans.
Being a jerk pro-GW or anti-GW results in bans.
So what is the unreasonably negative behavior that is wildly tolerated?
There are lots of subtly rude and insulting comments that someone can make without violating the forum rules. The post from Pacific I quoted contained two comments that I would describe as subtly insulting in the way that can-- when accumulated over a wide body of posts-- end up driving people away. Such things aren't insulting enough to violate the forum rules as they stand but are IMO harmful to the forum culture.
Insaniak wrote:People who have a low opinion of GW are certainly predisposed to dislike anything that they do. But if they go on to critisise GW, they're not necessarily doing it because it's the 'in thing'... they're doing it because they have a low opinion of GW, and so they perceive whatever it is that they are complaining about as being worthy of criticism.
Fair. That said, I think the forum climate has driven out most people who don't have a low opinion of GW, so we're caught in an anti-GW pattern where new users see negativity and assume it's the appropriate reaction.
Kingsley wrote: Fair. That said, I think the forum climate has driven out most people who don't have a low opinion of GW, so we're caught in an anti-GW pattern where new users see negativity and assume it's the appropriate reaction.
And there's the thing: you're assuming that it's just the forum climate that is keeping away those with a more positive attitude towards GW. From my experience out in the real world, that's not really the case. I've come across plenty of people who still enjoy playing their games... but the general attitude towards GW is most definitely not positive.
TheAuldGrump wrote: ...
Then let us look at the fan response to WotC in regards to 4th edition Dungeons & Dragons.
I hate 4e - I will make no pretense otherwise. A lot of people felt the same way.
Some people love the game (misguided though I think that they may be).
There is a strong polarization of those that hate 4e vs. those that love 4e.
Spoiler:
And, before people bring up WotC bashing and edition wars... WotC had the good sense to listen when they saw the slip in player base that was engendered by the polarization of that base.
The rising sales of Pathfinder vs. stagnant sales of 4e was something that they saw and acted upon.
The way they bashed their older editions in the lead up to 4e alienated a large number of players - so they are taking steps to not make that same mistake again.
I do not much like what I have seen of 5e - but it does not fill me with the quivering nerd rage that 4e did - in part because WotC has been taking steps to mend some of the bridges that they burned.
While I am not likely to play 5e neither am I likely to talk about how much I hate the game - because WotC has had the courtesy to admit to having made a mistake.
I will not play 5e, but I can wish the company well - a healthy 5e will be a good thing for the hobby in general.
I do not see a corresponding willingness to listen to their base from GW. I do not see any care about how their actions impact the hobby. beyond filling coffers.
But, like WotC, it is not impossible for GW to turn things around.
I am not likely to play Warhammer or Warhammer 40K at this point, but a healthy, vibrant, and inviting Warhammer would be a good thing for the hobby. There needs to be an entry point, and right now GW has the name recognition.
I use Kings of War and Mordheim as gateway drugs entry points - a lower startup cost is a good thing.
If GW can turn around then it will be good for the hobby, even if I do personally prefer KoW.
The Auld Grump
This exposes something important;
For myself, I'm firmly ensconced as a 4e lover (but in the spirit of charity will refrain from elaborating on how wrong you are ), and for me and mine, WotC's 5e "relaunch" is thus far an almost unmitigated disaster. I started back playing D&D after twenty-odd years because 4e seemed to fix all of the things I wanted fixed while maintaining all of the things I liked. WotC is certainly solicitous of the former playerbase (pre-4e), but from what I have seen they have alienated a large amount of their current player base.
Now, that's not to get onto a tangent on D&D, but to point out that, ultimately, the games evolved to where they are, and they can't change their cores without alienating somebody.
So, for example, we've gotten to the point with 40k that GW has prided itself on it's "beer and pretzel" quality: can it suddenly shift to a tight rules set? What happens to the people that don't want a tight rules set?
On the other hand, let's be realistic here: GW is thus far not showing the slightest inclination to attempt what WotC is trying to do. WotC may be setting themselves up for failure as they attempt to create the uber-rulesset that is all things to all men, but GW is more then happy it seems to tell people that don't like their current direction where to get off.
Kingsley wrote: Fair. That said, I think the forum climate has driven out most people who don't have a low opinion of GW, so we're caught in an anti-GW pattern where new users see negativity and assume it's the appropriate reaction.
And there's the thing: you're assuming that it's just the forum climate that is keeping away those with a more positive attitude towards GW. From my experience out in the real world, that's not really the case. I've come across plenty of people who still enjoy playing their games... but the general attitude towards GW is most definitely not positive.
Anecdotal evidence, of course...
Again, though, I think any such attitude is based on self-reinforcing patterns among the community. The reason I believe this is because I have played in local communities that have this prevailing attitude and local communities that don't. Unfortunately, most Internet communities seem to trend towards the negative.
Kingsley wrote: Fair. That said, I think the forum climate has driven out most people who don't have a low opinion of GW, so we're caught in an anti-GW pattern where new users see negativity and assume it's the appropriate reaction.
And there's the thing: you're assuming that it's just the forum climate that is keeping away those with a more positive attitude towards GW. From my experience out in the real world, that's not really the case. I've come across plenty of people who still enjoy playing their games... but the general attitude towards GW is most definitely not positive.
Anecdotal evidence, of course...
It's worth pointing out that GW suffers from deficits that, to my knowledge, no other major game producers suffer from: the nature and extent of their legal overreach, which can fairly be characterized as unethical, possibly going so far as illegal.
The closest correlate would be the incident where PP asked the developer of iBodger to stop development on his app, as they were coming out with their own Warroom app. But taking the app down was the voluntary actions of a fan, not a reaction to a C&D letter.
Whatever one thinks of Corvus Belli, Privateer Press, Mantic or whatever*, chances are your quarrels with them are based on aesthetics or other game based problems. With GW, there is a credible allegation that they are engaged in systematic abuse of the legal system. It's a whole other level of problem with a corporation.
*Except, of course, Mierce Miniatures, but that's a discussion for another thread.
TheAuldGrump wrote: ...
Then let us look at the fan response to WotC in regards to 4th edition Dungeons & Dragons.
I hate 4e - I will make no pretense otherwise. A lot of people felt the same way.
Some people love the game (misguided though I think that they may be).
There is a strong polarization of those that hate 4e vs. those that love 4e.
Spoiler:
And, before people bring up WotC bashing and edition wars... WotC had the good sense to listen when they saw the slip in player base that was engendered by the polarization of that base.
The rising sales of Pathfinder vs. stagnant sales of 4e was something that they saw and acted upon.
The way they bashed their older editions in the lead up to 4e alienated a large number of players - so they are taking steps to not make that same mistake again.
I do not much like what I have seen of 5e - but it does not fill me with the quivering nerd rage that 4e did - in part because WotC has been taking steps to mend some of the bridges that they burned.
While I am not likely to play 5e neither am I likely to talk about how much I hate the game - because WotC has had the courtesy to admit to having made a mistake.
I will not play 5e, but I can wish the company well - a healthy 5e will be a good thing for the hobby in general.
I do not see a corresponding willingness to listen to their base from GW. I do not see any care about how their actions impact the hobby. beyond filling coffers.
But, like WotC, it is not impossible for GW to turn things around.
I am not likely to play Warhammer or Warhammer 40K at this point, but a healthy, vibrant, and inviting Warhammer would be a good thing for the hobby. There needs to be an entry point, and right now GW has the name recognition.
I use Kings of War and Mordheim as gateway drugs entry points - a lower startup cost is a good thing.
If GW can turn around then it will be good for the hobby, even if I do personally prefer KoW.
The Auld Grump
This exposes something important;
For myself, I'm firmly ensconced as a 4e lover (but in the spirit of charity will refrain from elaborating on how wrong you are ), and for me and mine, WotC's 5e "relaunch" is thus far an almost unmitigated disaster. I started back playing D&D after twenty-odd years because 4e seemed to fix all of the things I wanted fixed while maintaining all of the things I liked. WotC is certainly solicitous of the former playerbase (pre-4e), but from what I have seen they have alienated a large amount of their current player base.
Now, that's not to get onto a tangent on D&D, but to point out that, ultimately, the games evolved to where they are, and they can't change their cores without alienating somebody.
So, for example, we've gotten to the point with 40k that GW has prided itself on it's "beer and pretzel" quality: can it suddenly shift to a tight rules set? What happens to the people that don't want a tight rules set?
On the other hand, let's be realistic here: GW is thus far not showing the slightest inclination to attempt what WotC is trying to do. WotC may be setting themselves up for failure as they attempt to create the uber-rulesset that is all things to all men, but GW is more then happy it seems to tell people that don't like their current direction where to get off.
A big difference to Dungeons and Dragons though is that you don't have a local 'meta'. You play the edition the dungeon master is doing the campaign for. If he has all of the 1st edition source books, then you're going to be playing 1st edition. If you don't like 1st edition, you don't play in his campaign. 40k is different in that the newest ruleset is the generally accepted ruleset to use. If you go for a pickup game at the store, you don't start asking what edition you're going to be playing. These days, you know it's 6th edition, whether you like it or not, unless you find a mutually agreeable person to play an older edition with.
Different games, different cultures.
That said, I don't think GW needs to move to a tigher ruleset. I genuinely like 6th edition. I firmly find price and quantity of models to be the big drawbacks of where they are with their games. I understand they are trading as a PLC and need to keep shareholders happy, and maybe that's the root cause of the problem. But where they are heading is the same direction they've been heading since they started. More models, that cost more money. They have even responded to criticism entirely wrong - the only ciriticism I've seen them respond to in a long time was putting rules in limited availability White Dwarf issues. Instead of responding by graciously accepting it was a bad idea and putting PDFs up (afterall, they've sold out of the WD issues by now), they threw their toys out of the pram in a tantrum and said no new rules would appear in White Dwarf anymore.
Uh oh. Buzz linked to one of my posts. That's never a good sign ;-).
For as whiny and bitchy as it can get here, I think it's worse on a site like boardgamegeek and the privateer forums.
I think the major problem with any Internet forum, however, is that too many people think they're right far too often (myself included) and are unwilling to even listen to others. Granted, half this time it's because someone is bashing something you like and put time into, but regardless, the discourse really only takes one Internet tough guy to get well meaning folks off topic.
Its when someone insults me personally, I realize that any semblance of debate is gone and that person has no desire to listen, so much so that he will insult you until you go away or stop saying your opinion
I enjoy a mature back and forth, sharing of idea's etc,
Its when someone calls me a child for being a dissatisfied customer, or saying how i have no right to feel anything and I should just leave if I don't accept everything blindly.
it changes from discussion to petty arguments.
I don't get that when I am dissatisfied with anything else, just GW.
Kingsley wrote: I'm not looking for a place that doesn't discuss the business side of the hobby. I'm looking for a place that does so in a reasonable and mature fashion without the prevailing negativity that can be found here. I believe that negativity is largely cultural and unjustified and would like to see a site or board with a different culture crop up, because many interesting discussions simply can't be had under the current climate on Dakka.
I'm curious, Kingsley - what sort of discussions do you think you could have on this hypothetical forum that you can't have on Dakka?
Kingsley wrote: I'm not looking for a place that doesn't discuss the business side of the hobby. I'm looking for a place that does so in a reasonable and mature fashion without the prevailing negativity that can be found here. I believe that negativity is largely cultural and unjustified and would like to see a site or board with a different culture crop up, because many interesting discussions simply can't be had under the current climate on Dakka.
I'm curious, Kingsley - what sort of discussions do you think you could have on this hypothetical forum that you can't have on Dakka?
Discussions of pricing levels (present and historical), what are reasonable and unreasonable expectations from a company, etc.
Kingsley wrote: I'm not looking for a place that doesn't discuss the business side of the hobby. I'm looking for a place that does so in a reasonable and mature fashion without the prevailing negativity that can be found here. I believe that negativity is largely cultural and unjustified and would like to see a site or board with a different culture crop up, because many interesting discussions simply can't be had under the current climate on Dakka.
I'm curious, Kingsley - what sort of discussions do you think you could have on this hypothetical forum that you can't have on Dakka?
Discussions of pricing levels (present and historical), what are reasonable and unreasonable expectations from a company, etc.
Kung Fu Hamster wrote: It's no secret that the 40K community is somewhat... vocal in voicing its displeasure concerning just about anything. Currently, the biggest 40K forums tend towards negativity. Take this site for example; it's practically impossible to have a 40K-related discussion (or any topic that even tangenitally touches on GW) without trolls, whiners, and the overall dregs of the community taking the conversation over and turning it into a GW bash-fest with almost no effort. The signal-to-noise ratio seems to be getting much worse with almost each passing day.
You're basically saying that you cannot criticise 40K, GW or anything related to it and that all who do so are "trolls" "whiners" and the "dregs of the community".
Such a bad start. Here I was thinking this thread might have some meaning...
DarknessEternal wrote: If you don't like GW anymore, stop playing their games and talking about them. Just let it go.
DarknessEternal's eternally fallacy, the "You don't like GW therefore you must stop playing 40K!" bull gak.
Disliking GW and liking 40K are not mutually exclusive.
d-usa wrote: We should make that a fund-raiser. The Hater's Ball and wargaming weekend.
Nah. Make it a "Black & White Ball", where all the White Knights get to fight the Dark Knights.
Kingsley - apologies if my post came across as insulting. It was not intended that way - if it had been then I would have said so, and I wouldn't have cushioned what I said. But generally speaking that's not something I would do on a forum, and especially something as petty as talking about miniature wargaming. My comment about being facetious - it was aimed at a post above yours from Bryllcream, who had essentially admitted as much, and has been notable by his absence in the last couple of pages of comments.
Although you have to realise how your comments come across? Saying that someone just dislikes, or is not happy with a particular thing, because it is the 'in-thing' to do? The implication there is that a critical opinion is a vacuous one, that hasn't been built up by any kind of thought process and instead is just thrown out there carelessly just to try and ingratiate themselves with the other posters. But you've seemed like a polite poster so I can take a good guess that you wouldn't want to say something like that - the point I'm trying to make here is that written text is a pretty poor way of communicating, and can lead people (depending upon their disposition at time of reading) to assume the worst from any conversation.
Most of us here are reasonable people, but we will all have different expectations about what is reasonable or what is not. Some of the policy actions by GW since they became a publically traded company are not regarded as reasonable by a majority of people, or at least those who are 'into' something enough that they bother posting on a forum. Obviously a far larger percentage just play once a week with their friends, and don't really care - and if it does get too expensive for them say, then they are far more likely just to pack it up and not make a fuss. But, it's important to realise that the benchmark is different for each of us - and while there will always be some bandwagoning (on both sides of an argument) the majority of users here are a pretty conscientious, and for the most part capable of a discussion without resorting to petty arguments.
Kanluwen wrote: I think that the community at large needs to learn the difference between "bash-fest" and "legitimate criticism".
Legitimate criticism does not need some attempted zinger remark about Mat Ward, Fineprices, or any number of the normal silliness that you see in such threads.
Legitimate criticism is also not just quoting someone's remark--whether you agree with it or not--and replying with a "facepalm" Orkmoticon.
Legitimate criticism is replying to someone's remark with a reply consisting of some measure of substance.
And at the same time those standing in front of GW with their shields out ready to defend any sort of criticism need to take a hike. There's nothing worse than a fanatic, whether that be fanatical love ("GW can do no wrong!") or fanatical hatred ("Everything PP do is garbage!").
Dysartes wrote: I'm curious, Kingsley - what sort of discussions do you think you could have on this hypothetical forum that you can't have on Dakka?
Discussions of pricing levels (present and historical), what are reasonable and unreasonable expectations from a company, etc.
All those discussions occur here on dakka.
Not in a reasonable fashion, unfortunately. Believe me, I've tried.
Pacific wrote:But, it's important to realise that the benchmark is different for each of us - and while there will always be some bandwagoning (on both sides of an argument) the majority of users here are a pretty conscientious, and for the most part capable of a discussion without resorting to petty arguments.
That's a fair point. What I'm saying is that think the majority of users more or less "go with the flow," neither raising nor lowering the standard of discourse. Unfortunately I also think the standard of discourse is not very high right now.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
H.B.M.C. wrote: And at the same time those standing in front of GW with their shields out ready to defend any sort of criticism need to take a hike. There's nothing worse than a fanatic, whether that be fanatical love ("GW can do no wrong!") or fanatical hatred ("Everything PP do is garbage!").
This is also a good point. There was recently a guy posting ridiculous insults against Privateer in defense of GW and he seriously derailed one of the new threads. Overall I am in favor of reasoned discussion, and thus against both those who blindly defend and those who blindly attack. I do however think the current forum culture generally hews towards unjustified negativity.
Discussions of pricing levels (present and historical), what are reasonable and unreasonable expectations from a company, etc.
There isn't anything to discuss tbh. Since we are all intelligent beings, we believe in capitalism being the superior form of a market. GW is a company. They are thus free to set any price they want. We, as customers, are free to buy anything we want at any price we want. The current price for GW's products is the original price minus 15-20% since the bigger online retailers sell GW products at that price. So if we are discussing prices, we have to discuss those.
The thing is: what is there to discuss? Everyone wants to get the most bang for your buck and wouldn't it be awesome if a box of minis was 10€ instead of 35€? The thing is, though, and most people tend to forget about it, that there's more to the price than just the assembly / material cost. I'm saying that the prices are "fair". I also consider them way too high and it always is a bad sign if a company has lower sales but still maintains profit by raising prices.
What most people ignore or do not care about though is that you only vote with your wallet. The truth is: GW does not give a single feck about what you think. GW does not care for you, your opinion or you ideas of a "fair" price. Your opinion is worth nothing. That's it. Once you realized that, you're one step closer to a proper discussion about prices.
You either buy GW stuff or you don't. It's that simple. There's nothing like "Okay, I buy your products, but I want to attest that your prices are really high!". What matters is that you bought it. End of the story. "Okay, I buy your products, but I want to attest that your prices are really high!" is the same as "I buy your stuff, I love your products GW!". You bought it. Or you didn't. If you do, you support everything GW does and have to live with their constant price hikes. If you don't, you lower GW's profit. By a very small margin, yes. But if enough people suddenly stop buying their products, GW WILL change.
Petitons, angry forum users, etc. are worth nothing. GW will NEVER change because someone in a forum complained about their prices. Not even if hundreds did. Not as long as there are enough people buying enough stuff and thus generating enough profit.
Buy it. Or don't. Those are the two options you have. GW is free to set any price they want. It's their given right. It's your right to buy it at whatever price available to you.
"Vote with your wallet." These four words are the only thing that matters concerning the discussion of prices. Everything else is meaningless.
d-usa wrote: I am always amazed that it is easier to believe that a majority of critical people are wrong than it is to believe that one company makes bad decisions.
I don't believe that a majority of critical people are wrong; I believe that the prevailing environment of negativity and tolerance for unreasonably negative behavior has caused many people to retreat from the forums, so the "core group" of commentators on the forums are now largely negative in nature. In my view, the issues with the forums aren't related to taste but rather to culture.
You posit that the prevailing environment of negativity caused people to leave the forum. This may be true. However, by your argument the negative views were present and prevalent prior to the other people leaving. Thus, one would conclude that the negative opinion is either held by the majority, or that there is a very vocal minority that holds the position. Either GW pissed off a whole lot of people, or they really pissed off some folks. I tend to believe that they did both.
This may be off topic here. GW continues to do good things, such as rerelease the rules for the flyers. However, at the same time they make more bad decisions, such as not offering the book to stores at a reasonable discount. When you mix the bad with the good, the latter is usually not noticed.
What most people ignore or do not care about though is that you only vote with your wallet. The truth is: GW does not give a single feck about what you think. GW does not care for you, your opinion or you ideas of a "fair" price. Your opinion is worth nothing. That's it. Once you realized that, you're one step closer to a proper discussion about prices.
Exactly. And you know what? I'm okay with that. They don't need to care about me. However, that's not the overall community group-think. In these forums, as well as those for any niche hobby, there's this overwhelming sense of entitlement and attachment that turns into a "I know how to run your company better than you" when a decision is made that isn't agreeable.
What most people ignore or do not care about though is that you only vote with your wallet. The truth is: GW does not give a single feck about what you think. GW does not care for you, your opinion or you ideas of a "fair" price. Your opinion is worth nothing. That's it. Once you realized that, you're one step closer to a proper discussion about prices.
So?
Name one PLC that doesn't?
Big companies fething EXIST to make money. In fact, feth it,modern human beings exist to make money. It makes the world go round.
Even a company that offers exceptional customer care does so, because it will make them more money! Why the feth do you think they do it?
Everything is an equation. If a hotel knew for a fact that not putting a complimentary glass of wine in with your meal would not affect their guest numbers but would save them a hundred grand a year they would do it. Why waste money? For fun? For the pleasure of imagining people drinking it while your sat in the board room?
You can question whether or not GW is being smart, certainly I think their approach IS going to affect sales because it's overtly aggressive with the push for sales, but grown men shouldn't need the fundamentals of economics explained to them. Companies exist to profit, and good or poor perks and discounts and services are all part of the equations. Lower prices equals more sales, but smaller margins, and the board decides the smartest way of doing it rightly or wrongly.
But please, don't insult my intelligence by making me read this "boo hoo sob nobody cares" bull gak. It reads like something a teenage girl puts on her Facebook Page.
News flash. Nobody cares. The company that seems to merely makes you think that they do because they figure it will make more sales and thus increase their profits.
What most people ignore or do not care about though is that you only vote with your wallet. The truth is: GW does not give a single feck about what you think. GW does not care for you, your opinion or you ideas of a "fair" price. Your opinion is worth nothing. That's it.
Yep.
And there are only 2 possibilities for the angry GW-hater:
1. They are still buying the products. In this case, they should shut their mouths. They clearly think everything is sunshine and rainbows if they're still buying things.
2. They are not buying the products. In this case, they should still shut their mouths. Complaining about something you don't participate in is a waste of your own time.
Yes companies exist to make money but even a company with only half a brain should be able to see that in a niche market maintaining a customer base is important, GWs entire business model is ''who gives a gak about the vets, they already own an army, make sure the new kids parents buy him a stater set'.
In addition if GW actually listened to it's player base we wouldn't get releases like the upcoming chaos daemons one, or the previous chaos warriors one, where the majority opinion on this site (and among everyone I personally know in the hobby, yes that's anecdotal but it's still) was that the models were bad. That is losing them money and all they would have to do is spend a little time listening to their customer base to realize it. Other companies know this. You don't have to care about your customers to listen to them, but doing so helps you know what will sell.
GW should be working with us to produce the best models in the world for competitive prices, instead they are sticking their fingers in their ears and going "LALALALALALALA" while expecting us to pay premium prices for whatever they stick their name on.
*Edit* and DarknessEternal, I REALLY hope that was sarcastic.
Uhm...I don't think you actually understood what I meant to say in my post. I fully agree with you. The paragraph was directed to all those people on the internet moaning about how evil GW and their prices are.
The community serves a critically important role for those who find themselves NOT in the extremes of GW love/hate.
There are many people who maybe have played for a little bit, timeline will be different for everyone. They start to see some things GW does... Things that make them scratch their heads. These people get an uneasy feeling that things are not quite right.
These people can talk to their friends, but this may not be any help. Personally many of the folks at my local store haven't hit the questioning point yet, or maybe aren't really good at critical thinking.
In that situation, dakka can play an incredibly important role, white knights, dark knights, and the more reasonable center all play a part in the discussions.
See, when you're starting to wonder if you're the only person noticing that GW doesn't make sense as a company, seeing these discussions can help validate or refute those observations. It also can be very, very helpful to use the extremes in the discussions as a yardstick to irrationality. But the irrational hatred/lovers still often have a point, or their existence is often a point. Do you ever read something, and say, "Dayum, I better to watch put to make sure I never get to that point!". Well, some people just might.
These discussions, what dakka gives, is information, differing views. The discussion, even heated, even negative, is an incredible resource.
*Edit* and DarknessEternal, I REALLY hope that was sarcastic.
Nope. If you're whining about things you still buy, you're the problem, not the company.
Don't buy stuff and drop the hobby. Bam, you're happier and so am I.
I'm sorry but that is a stupid point of view. I love the 40k setting, but I haven't bought anything in months or even played more than 1 game since 6th came out. But I want to. I want to get excited about something but the only models that have appealed to me enough to get past the price tag have been the DA terminators, which I bought. It is entirely possible to like the game but hate the company. I buy very little these days but dropping the hobby isn't going to make me any happier.
I want to keep playing fantasy and I want to get back into 40k but from my point of view it is GWs business decisions keeping me from buying things.
What most people ignore or do not care about though is that you only vote with your wallet. The truth is: GW does not give a single feck about what you think. GW does not care for you, your opinion or you ideas of a "fair" price. Your opinion is worth nothing. That's it. Once you realized that, you're one step closer to a proper discussion about prices.
So?
Name one PLC that doesn't?
Big companies fething EXIST to make money. In fact, feth it,modern human beings exist to make money. It makes the world go round.
...
No, no. That's love that makes the world go round.
What most people ignore or do not care about though is that you only vote with your wallet. The truth is: GW does not give a single feck about what you think. GW does not care for you, your opinion or you ideas of a "fair" price. Your opinion is worth nothing. That's it.
Yep.
And there are only 2 possibilities for the angry GW-hater:
1. They are still buying the products. In this case, they should shut their mouths. They clearly think everything is sunshine and rainbows if they're still buying things.
2. They are not buying the products. In this case, they should still shut their mouths. Complaining about something you don't participate in is a waste of your own time.
Isn't that not already happening? GW increasing prices more quickly to compensate for their decreasing market share?
"Nobody cares about anything but money" is a super grimdark idea. Even people who don't like GW's current direction don't claim that.
For my part, I've had multiple GW people advise me that I don't need a certain tool, or suggest that models X and Y might not be very effective together and maybe I should get slightly different ones. I don't think it makes a lot of sense to claim GW as a collective entity doesn't care about its customers. Maybe some parts don't care - and maybe some of those parts are high up the chain - but that's far from everyone.
It's also weird to say the only feedback that counts is money. No, spend money/not spend money is not great feedback. Very few people who run companies would want that to be their sole feedback mechanism, and many of them value that other feedback highly as it can be difficult to get.
People should absolutely send a message via not spending money, but absent any other form of feedback that is not necessarily something a company can interpret accurately. Ideally, they'd provide feedback to that company along with not spending the money. Otherwise, for all GW knows the reason they're not spending money is they have too few advertising-focused pages in White Dwarf or something.
HiveFleetPlastic wrote: "Nobody cares about anything but money" is a super grimdark idea. Even people who don't like GW's current direction don't claim that..
Sure they do!
People only care about those that they genuinely empathise with, its not grimdark, its a sign of the times. If we got pent up and depressed every time we heard something distressing (babies are being born with AIDS/getting raped/bludgeoned to death against trees, in Africa as I type this) we would all be swinging as soon as we opened a newspaper.
I don't think its grimdark to suggest that as a result of this we are self centred, its just not that depressing to me. Its a normal behavioural trait for evolved Hominidae.
We don't know each other, you wouldn't sob with impotent rage if you checked bbc.co.uk tomorrow and you heard that I had been kidnapped by Al Qaeda sympathisers and nailed to a tree outside a kebab shop in Manchester.
You would just go "meh" the same as you do with every other awful story of death or misery. Oscar Pistorius girlfriend was lovely (I personally think its always far more tragic when attractive people die) but I don't get depressed about her untimely demise. gak happens, as long as I didn't do anything wrong, I don't feel guilt over it.
Why should money be any different?! And whats so grimdark about a happy medium? I mean, sure Ill buy a big issue once in a while, but I spend more on Mcdonalds in a year and that's frivolous. Why not give every single penny of your spare cash to hobos? Why spend money on warhammer? I mean, its only a hobby.. you should buy rice for Somalians instead of silly plastic toys!
Matty, I agree that a corporation's principal concern should be the bottom line. Where I disagree is on the direct and attitude GW takes with it's consumer. It's PR is terrible, it 'won't deal with the press', it approaches everything with a stance and position of absolute authority and no room for improvement. That sort of thinking died out for the majority of large companies when we put aside red braces and brick phones.
I can remember quite clearly some teething problems Virgin Trains had with their South West routes, down to Penzance. It was annoying as hell being a commuter. Then one morning I arrived at the station and on several billboards was a personal message from Richard Branson, openly admitting they had not done well, recognizing that they needed to improve and that this was being taken seriously and that we would be informed via these same boards as improvements were made, and he kept to that, we were informed of changes as they took place.
I now travel Virgin whenever I can. I understand I am a paying customer, not a drinking buddy, but I appreciate that Virgin's corporate mindset holds my custom and my money in better regard than some of the other companies. Better relations and a better corporate image aren't giving away stuff or unrealistic for companies, they are 'enlightened self interest'. They bring about customer loyalty and increase your customer base by reputation.
It's a fairly basic business practice that GW thinks is horse gak and that they can instead just stand up and tell us 'we make the best model soldiers in the world so buy our very expensive stuff... oh and don't answer back'...
What most people ignore or do not care about though is that you only vote with your wallet. The truth is: GW does not give a single feck about what you think. GW does not care for you, your opinion or you ideas of a "fair" price. Your opinion is worth nothing. That's it.
Yep.
And there are only 2 possibilities for the angry GW-hater:
1. They are still buying the products. In this case, they should shut their mouths. They clearly think everything is sunshine and rainbows if they're still buying things.
2. They are not buying the products. In this case, they should still shut their mouths. Complaining about something you don't participate in is a waste of your own time.
but its my time to waste, and my choice to waste it
Kung Fu Hamster wrote: It's no secret that the 40K community is somewhat... vocal in voicing its displeasure concerning just about anything. Currently, the biggest 40K forums tend towards negativity. Take this site for example; it's practically impossible to have a 40K-related discussion (or any topic that even tangenitally touches on GW) without trolls, whiners, and the overall dregs of the community taking the conversation over and turning it into a GW bash-fest with almost no effort. The signal-to-noise ratio seems to be getting much worse with almost each passing day.
Different communities face this same issue, and have dealt with them in different ways. The official World of Warcraft forums, for example, are just as bad as most 40K forums. Blizzard has made some half-hearted attempts to clean things up, but nowadays the only people who spend and real amount of time there are trolls and whiners. Going to the WoW forums looking for a real discussion is an exercise in futility and sifting through pubescent complaining and obnoxiousness. Other communities suffer from this malaise as well, and have dealt with it in different ways. The Freebootaz, for example, charge a nominal fee for access to their forums which has proven to be an effective barrier against trolls. While this may not be an effective solution for every 40K forum, it still works well enough to improve the signal-to-noise ratio to be useful.
My question is this: how much responsibility does the community have as a whole in this? Should we rely on mods and forum owners to dictate the overall tone of discourse, or do community members bear some of the responsibility for the current state of affairs? If community members as a while bear some of the burden, what can be done to improve things?
If you are going to complain / comment on the tone of posts - I don't think calling people Trolls, whiners and dregs of the community sets a very good example at all.
And there are only 2 possibilities for the angry GW-hater:
1. They are still buying the products. In this case, they should shut their mouths. They clearly think everything is sunshine and rainbows if they're still buying things.
2. They are not buying the products. In this case, they should still shut their mouths. Complaining about something you don't participate in is a waste of your own time.
You are being hypocritical. You are raging, for pages of this and other threads, at people for raging.
Your argument is infantile and nonsensical, you can still make a purchase and not think 'everything is sunshine', you can refrain from purchasing and still provide commentary on the reasons why you would not, potential customer feedback is (or should be...) as valid to a business as ongoing customer feedback. Lost customer feedback should be VERY valuable to a company.
Also, it is very easy to participate in the hobby whilst not purchasing, buy dint of having made thousands and thousands of pounds worth of purchases...
If you are going to endlessly post in these threads, start elevating your position above poorly constructed vitriolic flamebait.
DarknessEternal wrote: Ignore the things you can't change and move on with your life then. You'll be happier.
Said BP over the massive oil spill.
Apathy and ignorance are not an answer, they're a cop out. If there is a problem you deal with, you dont go and hide under a pile of coats in mom and dads room.
DarknessEternal wrote: Ignore the things you can't change and move on with your life then. You'll be happier.
Said BP over the massive oil spill.
Apathy and ignorance are not an answer, they're a cop out. If there is a problem you deal with, you dont go and hide under a pile of coats in mom and dads room.
To stick to your metaphor: I am pretty sure that hundreds of people yelling at the oil would not have made it turn back either
DarknessEternal wrote: Ignore the things you can't change and move on with your life then. You'll be happier.
Said BP over the massive oil spill.
Apathy and ignorance are not an answer, they're a cop out. If there is a problem you deal with, you dont go and hide under a pile of coats in mom and dads room.
To stick to your metaphor: I am pretty sure that hundreds of people yelling at the oil would not have made it turn back either
The oil wasn't the issue. Massive incompetence on the part of the company running the rig was. No one is saying GW detractors should be yelling at the plastic.
I think the thing is that lots of people come to the forum to complain, fair enough.
However, when it seeps into and impedes others ability to enjoy is when it is a problem.
If I want to talk about something, or how I can use something better, 3 pages of matt ward complaining is not really aiding and is in fact not helping me get the support I was looking for from the community.
There have been many attempts to try and get useful assistance and in general I just stop. Constantly getting insulted for my preferences, or stating that I like something contrary to internet opinion gets you treated like garbage.
When all I want to do is enjoy my hobby being treated like an idiot for liking it, or being told I am an idiot for buying it really takes my enjoyment down.
Then again misery loves company so I can understand why they want to make people as upset as they are.
And if you try and say that "It's the internet why should you care" Yea....doesn't work like that. Keep believing it though.
DarknessEternal wrote: Ignore the things you can't change and move on with your life then. You'll be happier.
Said BP over the massive oil spill.
Apathy and ignorance are not an answer, they're a cop out. If there is a problem you deal with, you dont go and hide under a pile of coats in mom and dads room.
You know, Stephen Covey did pretty okay with this book called 7 Habits of Highly Effective People and one of the core tenets of that book is exactly that: change what you can directly affect and don't worry about the things ourside your sphere of control that you can't affect change upon.
The oil wasn't the issue. Massive incompetence on the part of the company running the rig was. No one is saying GW detractors should be yelling at the plastic.
Yes, but we are in the United States, where it's much easier to yell at the gun than at the person weilding it.
DarknessEternal wrote: Ignore the things you can't change and move on with your life then. You'll be happier.
Said BP over the massive oil spill.
Apathy and ignorance are not an answer, they're a cop out. If there is a problem you deal with, you dont go and hide under a pile of coats in mom and dads room.
You know, Stephen Covey did pretty okay with this book called 7 Habits of Highly Effective People and one of the core tenets of that book is exactly that: change what you can directly affect and don't worry about the things ourside your sphere of control that you can't affect change upon.
The oil wasn't the issue. Massive incompetence on the part of the company running the rig was. No one is saying GW detractors should be yelling at the plastic.
Yes, but we are in the United States, where it's much easier to yell at the gun than at the person weilding it.
Covey's successful people would not just lay down and accept tow the line nonsense. Your twisting the context of what he said to fit this particular situation. Highly successful people do not bury their heads in the sand, or just forget about, the things that matter to them.
As I said in another thread, irrational circle jerks of hate kinda define the interwebz. And make no mistake -- some of what goes on in forums here and elsewhere are exactly that. They certainly aren't all mature "constructive criticism."
Once you accept that, you just make decisions about your involvement. I avoid some sports forums that I frequent after my teams take a bad loss, because I know the reactionary idiots will create an unfavorable signal-to-noise ratio. After a few days, things will calm down and the conservations will get calmer and more interesting again.
IMO, Dakka is on a negative swing regarding GW right now in its natural cycle of ebbs and flows. Not that it ever gets cheerily positive regarding GW around here, but it has been more balanced at times. I think the recent trend is a shame, because I think people are missing some of the good things that GW's been doing lately...especially the majorly amped-up release cycle and the back-to-back-to-back replacement of three of the blandest codicies that GW's ever produced. But if the conversations I'd like to have are limited, then I'll just limit the time I spend here. I don't take it personally.
As I said in another thread, irrational circle jerks of hate kinda define the interwebz. And make no mistake -- some of what goes on in forums here and elsewhere are exactly that. They certainly aren't all mature "constructive criticism."
Once you accept that, you just make decisions about your involvement. I avoid some sports forums that I frequent after my teams take a bad loss, because I know the reactionary idiots will create an unfavorable signal-to-noise ratio. After a few days, things will calm down and the conservations will get calmer and more interesting again.
IMO, Dakka is on a negative swing regarding GW right now in its natural cycle of ebbs and flows. Not that it ever gets cheerily positive regarding GW around here, but it has been more balanced at times. I think the recent trend is a shame, because I think people are missing some of the good things that GW's been doing lately...especially the majorly amped-up release cycle and the back-to-back-to-back replacement of three of the blandest codicies that GW's ever produced. But if the conversations I'd like to have are limited, then I'll just limit the time I spend here. I don't take it personally.
I'm... I'm not sure if that last bit is sarcasm or not.
Kung Fu Hamster wrote: Take this site for example; it's practically impossible to have a 40K-related discussion (or any topic that even tangenitally touches on GW) without trolls, whiners, and the overall dregs of the community taking the conversation over and turning it into a GW bash-fest with almost no effort. The signal-to-noise ratio seems to be getting much worse with almost each passing day.
Lets also not forget that no GW discussion without fanboys, white knights and clueless defenders jumping in at every opportunity and claiming "they do it too" when compared to other companies....
But we also had the PR storm from Spots the Space Marine.
A $35 FAQ and second flier release for one army while others have yet to get 1.
A DA codex with terrible proof reading.
But what do I know? Apparently I'm only hating GW to try and be one of the cool kids or something like that.
This is an excellent example of what I'm talking about. How exactly can we have an honest discussion with posts like this? It's hyperbolic, puerile, and does nothing but help poison any actual discussion trying to take place.
The fact you wish to ignore this post and claim how can we have an honest discussion shows how much YOU are part of the problem, as you claim folks that dislike GW do.
You claim its all those things, yet completely IGNORES the fact that what GW has done in the past plays a huge role on why someone like that says it. Gw's own actions have caused rather large rifts AND rather hurt feelings(or worse) on its fan base.
The fact is that what the poster said adds much to the discussion. The fact that you wish to white wash it away as unhelpful completely shows my point on your OP. How can we have an honest discussion when you dont want to discuss things like, yes, GW's actions seem to show that they do not exactly like their customer or fan base. Or even not its fan base- the fiasco of Spots the Space marine is a rather large example of its distain of things not of itself.
DarknessEternal wrote: Ignore the things you can't change and move on with your life then. You'll be happier.
Said BP over the massive oil spill.
Apathy and ignorance are not an answer, they're a cop out. If there is a problem you deal with, you dont go and hide under a pile of coats in mom and dads room.
You know, Stephen Covey did pretty okay with this book called 7 Habits of Highly Effective People and one of the core tenets of that book is exactly that: change what you can directly affect and don't worry about the things ourside your sphere of control that you can't affect change upon.
.
Psssh pansy logic.
Here is what is best in life:
And besides that, I can change something, if pointing out the number of GWs flaws makes people think about what they buy and question GWs actions then as long as I get even one person thinking critically instead of being a apathetic push over then its a win. One day I hope GW will stop acting like dicks and start grasping the money gaining ability that is treating your customers with respect and value. Contrary to popular belief most people that fight and complain about GW dont want the company to fail, in fact they want the exact opposite, they want them to succeed, because we all know GW can be better, and has been better.
If you are going to complain / comment on the tone of posts - I don't think calling people Trolls, whiners and dregs of the community sets a very good example at all.
No, but on the plus side it does help definitively determine the true purpose of a thread and it's poster as part of the problem rather than an innocent soul looking for a solution.
Intriguing thread, though I've arrived too late to say anything insightful that hasn't been said already.
I'll add that perhaps what the OP was trying to say (badly in my view), that some GW threads descend into negativity fairy quickly...
...but that point of view was somewhat marred by suggesting that people making constructive criticism were the ones responsible for the negativity.
I don't quite know what point he was trying to make, but for my part, if you want to escape negativity there are plenty of other threads to go and hang out in. P&M Blogs is a favourite of mine when I'm tired of trying to fathom GW's world view.
And besides that, I can change something, if pointing out the number of GWs flaws makes people think about what they buy and question GWs actions then as long as I get even one person thinking critically instead of being a apathetic push over then its a win. One day I hope GW will stop acting like dicks and start grasping the money gaining ability that is treating your customers with respect and value. Contrary to popular belief most people that fight and complain about GW dont want the company to fail, in fact they want the exact opposite, they want them to succeed, because we all know GW can be better, and has been better.
You're not affecting any change. At all. Complaining inarticulately on the Internet does absolutely nothing, which is what most of the bitching and moaning on here is.
Saying they're "acting like dicks" is immature and shows that you're taking it way too personally. Seriously.
Hell, GW has done more to showcase how they value their customers in the past year than PP or Wyrd. How? The introduction of an entire community section of their blog that showcases the work done by their customers. They don't have to do that. And then when REALLY cool stuff comes along, they write a full blog post on them. People like to ignore these things, and I'm sure Ill get flamed for it, but this is a very real and tangible way to show they value their customer base. You're not going to see it in pricing and you just have to deal with it. They're a public company with a responsibility to their shareholders to make as much as they can.
cincydooley wrote: Hell, GW has done more to showcase how they value their customers in the past year than PP or Wyrd. How? The introduction of an entire community section of their blog that showcases the work done by their customers. They don't have to do that. And then when REALLY cool stuff comes along, they write a full blog post on them.
PP has already occasionally done that on their insider.
Hell, GW has done more to showcase how they value their customers in the past year than PP or Wyrd. How? The introduction of an entire community section of their blog that showcases the work done by their customers. They don't have to do that. And then when REALLY cool stuff comes along, they write a full blog post on them. People like to ignore these things, and I'm sure Ill get flamed for it, but this is a very real and tangible way to show they value their customer base. You're not going to see it in pricing and you just have to deal with it. They're a public company with a responsibility to their shareholders to make as much as they can.
If you think showing shiney pictures of customers models on their website shows how much they value a customer, more then what PP for example does, you really have no idea what value is. Thats empty platitudes at BEST. More likely marketing for themselves at worst.
PP for exampels, not only gives early views, but gives their customers THE NEW MODEL RULES to play with in their magazine. GW hasnt really done much like that in a long while. You dont even know whats coming until it appears with GW.
People ignore these things because for the most part they have no real value.It benefits them, GW more then it shows customer value.
PP for exampels, not only gives early views, but gives their customers THE NEW MODEL RULES to play with in their magazine. GW hasnt really done much like that in a long while. You dont even know whats coming until it appears with GW.
Early views!?!! Wowie zowie! That's incredible!! Oh wait. Who cares if you rarely hit your production dates?
New model rules? Sweet. Oh wait? They change like, one thing and are only relevant if you're doing that campaign? Oh. I thought they were real legitimate alternate rules.
Now to be fair, I think their organized play is great. But you have to be somewhere that does a league to benefit from it.
But it's all good. We can ignore things like Games Day or Forge World Open Day or Black Library weekender because its GW and they only do it to make money and not because they want their customers to have a fun experience and rub elbows with the folks that actually work on the games and universe. Nope. Definitely not that second part. Only for money.
But Lock and Load, because its PP, is completely different. They don't care about the money at all. It's all about their customers and is completely different than Games Day or Open Day or BL Weekender, just because.
Early views!?!! Wowie zowie! That's incredible!! Oh wait. Who cares if you rarely hit your production dates?
Do you really believe that?
New model rules? Sweet. Oh wait? They change like, one thing and are only relevant if you're doing that campaign? Oh. I thought they were real legitimate alternate rules.
You mean the rules for models releasing in Gargantuans, the IKRPG rules, and all those things PP gives out aren't legitimate?
Now to be fair, I think their organized play is great. But you have to be somewhere that does a league to benefit from it.
Good thing they have the Press Gang, a group of volunteers dedicated to running leagues and tournaments for PP. And if your store lacks a PG, the application process is easy.
cincydooley wrote: s like Games Day or Forge World Open Day or Black Library weekender because its GW and they only do it to make money and not because they want their customers to have a fun experience and rub elbows with the folks that actually work on the games and universe. Nope. Definitely not that second part. Only for money.
Don't pad your arguments with straw. It'll only make you itchy. And don’t lump “Games Day” in with things like a Black Library open day. They’re not the same. Let me elaborate.
There’s an upcoming BL/FW Horus Heresy showcase coming up and I made a comment that the event baffled me without explaining way (this was intentional). Several posters lined up to guess why I was so befuddled, but none of them got it right. Most assumed my confusion was a criticism of FW/BL or just the HH showcase itself. Far from it. I applaud the announcement of this HH day.
What baffled me was why only BL/FW do this when GW proper never does. BL puts out preview excerpts of their books, shows off upcoming covers, does loads of interviews with their stable of writers, and generally keeps people well informed of upcoming products and events. FW puts up experimental rules, previews their upcoming models, does little teasers to get people talking/start up buzz about upcoming models, shows off works-in-progress, and does designer diaries with their writers.
GW does none of this. Their own big show (Games Day) is a hollow excuse for a convention as there’s never anything new (except over in the BL/FW areas, as well as any groups with the GW licences: Relic, FFG etc.). They don’t go out into the world and join in at the big gaming conventions (BL and FW often do), they don’t get involved with any sort of tournament scene, even if it’s just advertising (BL and FW often do).
This is why I am baffled by the HH event. Why is there no “Daemonic Weekend” for the massive re-release of the Fantasy and 40K Daemon books? Why is there no preview of “If you thought Daemons were great, wait ‘til you see what we have coming next!” preview? Why is the only concrete information bad iPhone pictures from a WD? What happened to the model cases full of surprise upcoming releases? I still recall the day photos of the first Power Armour GKs showed up. Same day as the new Necromunda Arbite Enforcer models. They were a wonderful surprise, and weren’t out until many months later, but they had people salivating.
TheAuldGrump wrote: ...
Then let us look at the fan response to WotC in regards to 4th edition Dungeons & Dragons.
I hate 4e - I will make no pretense otherwise. A lot of people felt the same way.
Some people love the game (misguided though I think that they may be).
There is a strong polarization of those that hate 4e vs. those that love 4e.
Spoiler:
And, before people bring up WotC bashing and edition wars... WotC had the good sense to listen when they saw the slip in player base that was engendered by the polarization of that base.
The rising sales of Pathfinder vs. stagnant sales of 4e was something that they saw and acted upon.
The way they bashed their older editions in the lead up to 4e alienated a large number of players - so they are taking steps to not make that same mistake again.
I do not much like what I have seen of 5e - but it does not fill me with the quivering nerd rage that 4e did - in part because WotC has been taking steps to mend some of the bridges that they burned.
While I am not likely to play 5e neither am I likely to talk about how much I hate the game - because WotC has had the courtesy to admit to having made a mistake.
I will not play 5e, but I can wish the company well - a healthy 5e will be a good thing for the hobby in general.
I do not see a corresponding willingness to listen to their base from GW. I do not see any care about how their actions impact the hobby. beyond filling coffers.
But, like WotC, it is not impossible for GW to turn things around.
I am not likely to play Warhammer or Warhammer 40K at this point, but a healthy, vibrant, and inviting Warhammer would be a good thing for the hobby. There needs to be an entry point, and right now GW has the name recognition.
I use Kings of War and Mordheim as gateway drugs entry points - a lower startup cost is a good thing.
If GW can turn around then it will be good for the hobby, even if I do personally prefer KoW.
The Auld Grump
This exposes something important;
For myself, I'm firmly ensconced as a 4e lover (but in the spirit of charity will refrain from elaborating on how wrong you are ), and for me and mine, WotC's 5e "relaunch" is thus far an almost unmitigated disaster. I started back playing D&D after twenty-odd years because 4e seemed to fix all of the things I wanted fixed while maintaining all of the things I liked. WotC is certainly solicitous of the former playerbase (pre-4e), but from what I have seen they have alienated a large amount of their current player base.
Now, that's not to get onto a tangent on D&D, but to point out that, ultimately, the games evolved to where they are, and they can't change their cores without alienating somebody.
So, for example, we've gotten to the point with 40k that GW has prided itself on it's "beer and pretzel" quality: can it suddenly shift to a tight rules set? What happens to the people that don't want a tight rules set?
On the other hand, let's be realistic here: GW is thus far not showing the slightest inclination to attempt what WotC is trying to do. WotC may be setting themselves up for failure as they attempt to create the uber-rulesset that is all things to all men, but GW is more then happy it seems to tell people that don't like their current direction where to get off.
Something to bear in mind about the WotC situation is that the 'current player base' was smaller than the one that they managed to alienate in the lead up to 4e. They managed to turn the number one RPG into number two.
And the game that now holds the number one position was based on the older rule set that WotC - the 500 pound gorilla - had abandoned, and, in the lead up to 4e, insulted. They tried to dictate what the game would be about, and failed. Do you remember the line 'Dungeons & Dragons is not a game about traipsing through the fairy gates and interacting with the little people. Dungeons & Dragons is a game about combat!'? Or the animated commercial where a complainer was crapped on by a dragon? I do. And I wont forget that either easily or any time soon.
The week before they published that little bit of self serving drivel I ran a D&D scenario, where the PCsdid 'traipse through a fairy gate and interacted with the little people'. The game is not always about combat. (And, yes, I know folks have run other styles with the 4e rules - I am talking here about the way WotC handled the lead up, not the rules.)
That kind of attitude, more than the rules themselves, were what alienated a large portion of their fan base.
But in the lead up to 5e they have not been talking about what a horrible, bad, awful bad-wrong-fun game 4e is.
They are making some attempt, at least, to reunite a base that they fractured.
If nothing else, I can give them credit for that.
Now if only they would go back to using the OGL....
Games Workshop, by comparison has handled negative publicity by hiding in a corner and avoiding the press.
GW's fan base is also shrinking, and they are handling it by trying to regain lost revenues by increasing prices rather than trying to bring people back.
The problem with telling people where to get off is that much of the time they do get off, and spend their monies elsewhere.
I have - I spend just as much now as when I bought GW stuff, but what I am buying is from other folks. Not only has GW lost my money they have helped their competition. The battle for my gaming dollar is a zero sum game - in order for Reaper to get one of my hard earned dollars it has to compete against GW... and in that competition they are winning. Mantic is winning. Avatars of War is winning. Raging Heroes is winning. I am buying their merchandise.
GW is losing - I am not buying their products anymore.
It is not a boycott - it is all about perceived value. I get better value for my buck from other folks, so those other folks are getting my buck.
And the reason that some (not all) people complain is that they hope to change that situation. They want to enjoy buying from a company they like.
The Auld Grump, where did this soap box come from, and why am I standing on it?
Kingsley wrote:Not in a reasonable fashion, unfortunately. Believe me, I've tried.
The problem might be that you only see as reasonable that which you already agree with.
cincydooley wrote:You're not affecting any change.
So if the complaining is 100% ineffectual and is largely contained to a single sub forum while there are 13+ other sub forums that deal with GW's games that are largely not full of complaining, why do you care?
Is it that they might be right and that their vocalization of the issues is having an effect? People are pointing out the bad stuff about GW and it's making a difference?
In my local gaming group people eventually had enough of GW's crap and we don't really play their games anymore. For a while there were some defenders of GW, but when pressed, they admitted that their real interest was self interested. They didn't want the number of opponents available to shrink because people were quitting in disgust.
So i get that you want things to be more positive and you want people to ignore the bad things GW does. I really do get that every time GW does something horrible (like make a false DMCA take down claim against and independent author on a charity project) it threatens your long term ability to have a vibrant gaming community. When people quit in disgust, the available player base shrinks.
That's the real reason for white-knighting. To try to protect their own hobby against GW's abuse through propaganda.
New model rules? Sweet. Oh wait? They change like, one thing and are only relevant if you're doing that campaign? Oh. I thought they were real legitimate alternate rules.
You mean the rules for models releasing in Gargantuans, the IKRPG rules, and all those things PP gives out aren't legitimate?
I think he's talking about the alternate model cards for leagues, which are indeed of limited use unless you agree with your opponent to use them in a regular game. Though how he noticed those and skipped over the 4-5 pages of previewed rules for upcoming models (that give you everything you need to use it in game except the actual model) escapes me.
And besides that, I can change something, if pointing out the number of GWs flaws makes people think about what they buy and question GWs actions then as long as I get even one person thinking critically instead of being a apathetic push over then its a win. One day I hope GW will stop acting like dicks and start grasping the money gaining ability that is treating your customers with respect and value. Contrary to popular belief most people that fight and complain about GW dont want the company to fail, in fact they want the exact opposite, they want them to succeed, because we all know GW can be better, and has been better.
If you buy something GW your an apathetic pushover?
Seems a bit unfair. I've spent about $100 on GW the past 18 months, so that makes me a patsy?
How about if you incessantly piss and whine on the Internet about how much of a KEWL DUDE you are for being a contrarian and everyone else is a sheep, you just come across as a whiny self important school girl?
Fairs fair. Let's all make ridiculous sweeping statements eh?
He just said he wanted critical thinking. Many of the arguments made by pro-GW posters have been encouraging apathy, declaring discussion of GW's policies useless and a waste of time, and have said they want all discussion of GW to go away and posters to shut up. There haven't been a lot of constructive arguments coming from the pro-GW crowd unfortunately. They have been painting those who criticize as whiney and rage induced band wagoners.
Not really, I think in general we dont have as much of a problem with it as the rest of you do. We still get the value out of it we want. So all this critical thinking people assume is not happening and the insults that get thrown at us cause us to respond in kind. Indirect insults that call us apathetic or sheep, even if we were not involved in the dialogue now we are being insulted and feel the need to defend ourselves.
Also its like I said, if you want to complain, that's fine just if possible don't let it bleed over into areas where it isn't really necessary. Basically asking that you don't let your hatred for the game get in the way of someone else's enjoyment.
And that's fine that you reach that conclusion. What isn't fine is the posts that are demanding people shut up and slandering one side or the other. I think the key is facts, figures, examples and opinions are expressed and debated. It's hard to get there when I can pull out several dozen examples of posts in the two major threads going on that are dismissive of debate or just mud slinging (from both sides tbf). From what I've seen, the pro-GW side is slipping into muddy waters because it's stopped making as many well formed arguments as it used to and has gone to lazy tactics. The mods have been accused a few times of taking the side of anti-corporate GW because of moderating these types of posts that are largely inflammatory.
The lack of negativity on those forums has far more to do with the fact that there are VASTLY fewer players of said games compared to GW. The negativity will grow with the size of the company, it's pretty much a given as the more people you have participating in your forums the more negative people you will attract and they will in fact poison the well so to speak and drag the level of conversation down.
I'd disagree - Dakka has a total of 69, 290 members. Thanks to the fact that Dakka has subforums for a variety of games - and are the actual official forums for two games - I think it's safe to assume not everyone comes here for GW games (especially from what I've seen down in the Off-topic area). I know I certainly don't.
PP's forum currently has a total of 57,877 members, and Battlefront has 57,723 members.
I'd say, then, that in the participation of players on forums, GW's at least near the amount of other relatively long-running and popular wargames. It is safe to say that GW and it's games are the most discussed on Dakka? Sure, but only because there's no official GW forum, and so there are better forums to go to for other games.
M:tG also has a vastly larger player base than 40k, and yet you'll see much less criticism on their official forums. Negativity wouldn't grow exponentially if there are no reasons to be negative to the company or product.
Then let us look at the fan response to WotC in regards to 4th edition Dungeons & Dragons.
I hate 4e - I will make no pretense otherwise. A lot of people felt the same way.
Some people love the game (misguided though I think that they may be).
There is a strong polarization of those that hate 4e vs. those that love 4e.
And, before people bring up WotC bashing and edition wars... WotC had the good sense to listen when they saw the slip in player base that was engendered by the polarization of that base.
The rising sales of Pathfinder vs. stagnant sales of 4e was something that they saw and acted upon.
The way they bashed their older editions in the lead up to 4e alienated a large number of players - so they are taking steps to not make that same mistake again.
I do not much like what I have seen of 5e - but it does not fill me with the quivering nerd rage that 4e did - in part because WotC has been taking steps to mend some of the bridges that they burned.
While I am not likely to play 5e neither am I likely to talk about how much I hate the game - because WotC has had the courtesy to admit to having made a mistake.
I will not play 5e, but I can wish the company well - a healthy 5e will be a good thing for the hobby in general.
I do not see a corresponding willingness to listen to their base from GW. I do not see any care about how their actions impact the hobby. beyond filling coffers.
But, like WotC, it is not impossible for GW to turn things around.
I am not likely to play Warhammer or Warhammer 40K at this point, but a healthy, vibrant, and inviting Warhammer would be a good thing for the hobby. There needs to be an entry point, and right now GW has the name recognition.
I use Kings of War and Mordheim as gateway drugs entry points - a lower startup cost is a good thing.
If GW can turn around then it will be good for the hobby, even if I do personally prefer KoW.
The Auld Grump
This one here is an excellent point, as well.
Point being, That WOTC akgnowledged the gak ups and took steps to alleveiate and get ahold of the situation. They even ASKED for fan feedback on the issues. Thier still is a good amount of issues out there on the games as well, but the issues are the ones that everyone across the board has with D and D, not just WOTC saying- "Hey, thats OUR IP, We'll do what we want to, and if you don't like it, gak you!"
Surtur wrote: He just said he wanted critical thinking. Many of the arguments made by pro-GW posters have been encouraging apathy, declaring discussion of GW's policies useless and a waste of time, and have said they want all discussion of GW to go away and posters to shut up. There haven't been a lot of constructive arguments coming from the pro-GW crowd unfortunately. They have been painting those who criticize as whiney and rage induced band wagoners.
Well, not entirely. The point is that inarticulate bitching and moaning on the internet will do nothing to affect change. Not a damn thing. Voicing your concerns in well constructed letters to is more pro-active, but it's still not going to do a whole helluva lot.
Now, if one of you wants to become a shareholder, attended a shareholders meeting, and voice your concerns there...well that's affecting change. In order to broaden your sphere of control, you have to broaden your sphere of influence. Complaining on the internet and telling those that have less issues than that they're "patsy's" or "stupid" doesn't help anything unless your goal is to look like an ass.
Like Leth said: there are plenty of us that just aren't as concerned with all these perceived "slights" perpetrated by GW, nor do we take them personally because they understand that GW is a public company out to turn a profit. We're also able to separate the corporate face from those that are actually involved with the game, and from my experience, the latter DO care what the fan says, and are responisive to...and let me stress this.... WELL ARTICULATED concern and criticism. Despite the misgivings of Games Day, it's an opportunity to speak with the folks that actually do have input on the game and fluff, and from my experience they've always been receptive to clean and polite folks.
The point is that one of about three things happen, pretty typically, in any conversation like this:
1. People with a broader understanding of the scope of what they can actually change are called names like "white knight" or are labled "patsys" for continuing to patronzie/defend the company
2. People that think they know GWs business better than the folks at GW propose sweeping changes that will 'automatically' make the company 'better.'
3. People compare GW to Privateer or Wyrd or Corvus Belli, not realizing the massive differences between them, and it becomes a double-standard pissing contest where GW is held to a higher level of accountibility because of some percieved "lack of caring" that the other companies just ooze.
Take, for example, the customer service aspect of replaced parts:
GW- You call, talk to someone LIVE, you read them the batch numbers from your box, you receive an order number (with tracking), and 9/10 times you have a replacement kit within 5 business days (I've typically gotten mine in 3)
Privateer - You enter your missing piece info into a web form. You get a verification email that it's been recieved. You (sometimes) get a confirmation that your order is being processed. You recieve your missing part (usually) within 1-2 weeks.
Wyrd - You send an email to their customer service parts replacement center, You get a response in (usually) 3-4 business days, they say they'll send your part out. You get no verification of shipping. You wait for about two weeks. When your part hasn't come, you email again. You wait another week. It finally shows up.
Now those examples are broad and anecdotal, but from my experience they're pretty typical of the timing and handling of missing/broken parts. How anyone can say that GW isn't unequivocally the best in terms of that, I dont know. But people have on this thread because, despite the very clear superiority in the CS department, Wyrd or PP get the pass because "they care more." I don't understand that.
Slight correction to your post about Wyrd's parts replacement. If you put in all of the information they need, they actually don't contact you, they will just ship it out... The last time I personally had issues with Wyrd and missing models was when I first got into the game, my Nicodem box came with 2 Nicodems and 2 Mortimers and 0 Punk Zombies lol but that was before their new parts replacement service...
Also with Privateer's parts replacement, you can go back to the form and track the progress of your replacement...
Edit: With GW I've bought 1 Finecast model that was gak enough to warrant calling customer service, and I couldn't get a replacement, I had a monolith kit with 2 warped sides (it was an old fething kit), and they sent me a single sprue to fix my warped sides. The only time they've every gone above and beyond the duty was before I even started playing. I was just painting models, and I bought an OLD sealed 3rd edition carnifex that was missing it's old metal leg. They sent me a whole plastic carnifex kit (most likely because they don't have any of the old legs). But the guy was jovial and friendly, and said, "hey dude what can I do for you?" and then ended the call with, "Hey man, no worries, we'll get this out to you and it should arrive in about 10 days. Keep cool man." The subsequent calls to them were not as friendly.
New model rules? Sweet. Oh wait? They change like, one thing and are only relevant if you're doing that campaign? Oh. I thought they were real legitimate alternate rules.
You mean the rules for models releasing in Gargantuans, the IKRPG rules, and all those things PP gives out aren't legitimate?
I think he's talking about the alternate model cards for leagues, which are indeed of limited use unless you agree with your opponent to use them in a regular game. Though how he noticed those and skipped over the 4-5 pages of previewed rules for upcoming models (that give you everything you need to use it in game except the actual model) escapes me.
No... didn't miss them. Just didn't see how they were any different than rules for new models that GW has consistenly provided in White Dwarf over the past year.
If I can't get No Quarter, I'm going to have to buy the book, right? Unless I'm missing something, full Colossal/Gargantuan rules did not come with my Stormwalls or Mountain King. I mean, it's been proposed that they should be right? If the full rules for the GW flyers should be included in the box, right?
Granted, Gargantuans/Colossals aren't limited print run books, but they have rules in them that are REQUIRED to know if you're going to play with those models, rules that aren't present on the stat cards. If there's any shortcoming in this "Death from the Skies" situation, it's that the book should have had a larger print run.
Seriously, the double standard drives me bananas.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Alfndrate wrote: Slight correction to your post about Wyrd's parts replacement. If you put in all of the information they need, they actually don't contact you, they will just ship it out... The last time I personally had issues with Wyrd and missing models was when I first got into the game, my Nicodem box came with 2 Nicodems and 2 Mortimers and 0 Punk Zombies lol but that was before their new parts replacement service...
Also with Privateer's parts replacement, you can go back to the form and track the progress of your replacement...
You're absolutely right about being able to track with Privateer; I think this is a new feature since I've last submitted one.
@Wyrd: I didn't know they even had a new parts replacement service. The last time I needed a replacment was for hoffman's mech suit, which was embarassingly slip cast (I don't know how the model got through, honestly) and it took at least three emails from me to get them to send the part (despite the fact that I included pictures the first time).
I'll give PP the benefit of the doubt because you can track the tickets now, but not Wyrd, not yet. Especially since they used their inability to ship things efficiently and correctly as a crutch in their KS.
Edit: With GW I've bought 1 Finecast model that was gak enough to warrant calling customer service, and I couldn't get a replacement, I had a monolith kit with 2 warped sides (it was an old fething kit), and they sent me a single sprue to fix my warped sides. The only time they've every gone above and beyond the duty was before I even started playing. I was just painting models, and I bought an OLD sealed 3rd edition carnifex that was missing it's old metal leg. They sent me a whole plastic carnifex kit (most likely because they don't have any of the old legs). But the guy was jovial and friendly, and said, "hey dude what can I do for you?" and then ended the call with, "Hey man, no worries, we'll get this out to you and it should arrive in about 10 days. Keep cool man." The subsequent calls to them were not as friendly.
Why couldn't you get it replaced? I find that pretty surprising based on my experience. I had a Finecast Jabberscythe that had a short pour on one of the pieces, and as has been typical with my experience with them, they sent me an entire new kit, despite telling them I only needed the one piece. Honestly, when I have issues with anything GW, I try to convince them to just send me the pieces I'm missing instead of a whole box, because I'm not trying to scam anyone.
New model rules? Sweet. Oh wait? They change like, one thing and are only relevant if you're doing that campaign? Oh. I thought they were real legitimate alternate rules.
You mean the rules for models releasing in Gargantuans, the IKRPG rules, and all those things PP gives out aren't legitimate?
I think he's talking about the alternate model cards for leagues, which are indeed of limited use unless you agree with your opponent to use them in a regular game. Though how he noticed those and skipped over the 4-5 pages of previewed rules for upcoming models (that give you everything you need to use it in game except the actual model) escapes me.
No... didn't miss them. Just didn't see how they were any different than rules for new models that GW has consistenly provided in White Dwarf over the past year.
If I can't get No Quarter, I'm going to have to buy the book, right? Unless I'm missing something, full Colossal/Gargantuan rules did not come with my Stormwalls or Mountain King. I mean, it's been proposed that they should be right? If the full rules for the GW flyers should be included in the box, right?
Granted, Gargantuans/Colossals aren't limited print run books, but they have rules in them that are REQUIRED to know if you're going to play with those models, rules that aren't present on the stat cards. If there's any shortcoming in this "Death from the Skies" situation, it's that the book should have had a larger print run.
Seriously, the double standard drives me bananas.
What in blazes are you talking about? Since when did WD ever bring model rules in them?
My last no quarter brought full rules for the Archangel, full rules for the new Minion Warlock Trask, full rules for the new Minion Lesser warbeasts, full rules for the new Legion Light Warbeast... When was the last time WD ever brought model rules inside like that?
What in blazes are you talking about? Since when did WD ever bring model rules in them?
My last no quarter brought full rules for the Archangel, full rules for the new Minion Warlock Trask, full rules for the new Minion Lesser warbeasts, full rules for the new Legion Light Warbeast... When was the last time WD ever brought model rules inside like that?
What double standards are you even talking about?
Well, in these past twelve months alone we have gotten (and correct me if my timing is off):
Full Rules for the Storm Talon and Ork Airforce
Full Rules for the eldar Nightspinner
Full Rules for the new Tyranid models.
Mini Codex update for Sisters of Battle.
Mini Battle Missions supplement for Death Worlds.
Full Rules for the Ogre Stonehorn
And that's just what I remember from going through my White Dwarfs on Monday.
New model rules? Sweet. Oh wait? They change like, one thing and are only relevant if you're doing that campaign? Oh. I thought they were real legitimate alternate rules.
You mean the rules for models releasing in Gargantuans, the IKRPG rules, and all those things PP gives out aren't legitimate?
I think he's talking about the alternate model cards for leagues, which are indeed of limited use unless you agree with your opponent to use them in a regular game. Though how he noticed those and skipped over the 4-5 pages of previewed rules for upcoming models (that give you everything you need to use it in game except the actual model) escapes me.
No... didn't miss them. Just didn't see how they were any different than rules for new models that GW has consistenly provided in White Dwarf over the past year.
If I can't get No Quarter, I'm going to have to buy the book, right? Unless I'm missing something, full Colossal/Gargantuan rules did not come with my Stormwalls or Mountain King. I mean, it's been proposed that they should be right? If the full rules for the GW flyers should be included in the box, right?
Granted, Gargantuans/Colossals aren't limited print run books, but they have rules in them that are REQUIRED to know if you're going to play with those models, rules that aren't present on the stat cards. If there's any shortcoming in this "Death from the Skies" situation, it's that the book should have had a larger print run.
Seriously, the double standard drives me bananas.
The rules for both Colossals and Gargantuans are available online and for free through the Warroom app, as well as if you pick up the copy of No Quarter (which is available from their back catalog) or the actual Colossals expansion book. There's hardly a double standard there, and it just takes a bit of research into the game to find the rules. Not exactly the same situation at all, although the Warroom app is not the best out there, they do give you access to the entirety of the rulebook at no charge through it. Actually using the faction decks requires a purchase, but you still get the entire base rules of the game and every model available in the Prime and Primal books at no charge.
A bit more generous than what GW has been offering. In fact, I suspect part of the reason why people are making a lot of noise about GW and it's pretentions of being a 'models' company of late is that they consistently charge considerably more for access to their rules than any of the other big minis companies right now. Wyrd, Privateer Press, and Corvis Belli all offer their core rules for free online in one form or another, and their books (which you generally are getting for ease of reference and the fluff) are dramatically cheaper. So GW seems to think that their rules are inherently worth paying a heavy premium for, and yet they haven't put the level of work into them - at least in a number of people's minds - to justify the price tag they are charging for access to them.
I don't expect GW to be extremely balanced - I don't play their games to actually be competitive with them, because they're drek for that. But what I do expect is for the rulebook to clarify all interactions and have language that doesn't require 4+ diceoffs every time there is a contradiction.
And that's just what I remember from going through my White Dwarfs on Monday.
So in the past year, we have 1 instance of WD bringing official model rules inside (the Tyranid ones)? And yet you claim that there are no differences and that people that claim that there are are using a double standard?
Alfndrate wrote: Slight correction to your post about Wyrd's parts replacement. If you put in all of the information they need, they actually don't contact you, they will just ship it out... The last time I personally had issues with Wyrd and missing models was when I first got into the game, my Nicodem box came with 2 Nicodems and 2 Mortimers and 0 Punk Zombies lol but that was before their new parts replacement service...
Also with Privateer's parts replacement, you can go back to the form and track the progress of your replacement...
You're absolutely right about being able to track with Privateer; I think this is a new feature since I've last submitted one.
@Wyrd: I didn't know they even had a new parts replacement service. The last time I needed a replacment was for hoffman's mech suit, which was embarassingly slip cast (I don't know how the model got through, honestly) and it took at least three emails from me to get them to send the part (despite the fact that I included pictures the first time).
I'll give PP the benefit of the doubt because you can track the tickets now, but not Wyrd, not yet. Especially since they used their inability to ship things efficiently and correctly as a crutch in their KS.
Edit: With GW I've bought 1 Finecast model that was gak enough to warrant calling customer service, and I couldn't get a replacement, I had a monolith kit with 2 warped sides (it was an old fething kit), and they sent me a single sprue to fix my warped sides. The only time they've every gone above and beyond the duty was before I even started playing. I was just painting models, and I bought an OLD sealed 3rd edition carnifex that was missing it's old metal leg. They sent me a whole plastic carnifex kit (most likely because they don't have any of the old legs). But the guy was jovial and friendly, and said, "hey dude what can I do for you?" and then ended the call with, "Hey man, no worries, we'll get this out to you and it should arrive in about 10 days. Keep cool man." The subsequent calls to them were not as friendly.
Why couldn't you get it replaced? I find that pretty surprising based on my experience. I had a Finecast Jabberscythe that had a short pour on one of the pieces, and as has been typical with my experience with them, they sent me an entire new kit, despite telling them I only needed the one piece. Honestly, when I have issues with anything GW, I try to convince them to just send me the pieces I'm missing instead of a whole box, because I'm not trying to scam anyone.
Yeah, Wyrd's parts replacement is a little wonky, and I try not to use it if I don't have to... with the weirdness I've recently had with their store, I'd rather get an email saying a human being has looked at it (even if it's an auto reply lol). And for some reason having bits of my Empire Witch Hunter's cloak thin enough I could see through it, air bubbles on the hand, and a few other places didn't warrant replacement without sending them their model. After about 45 minutes on the phone, I said forget it. It didn't need to be perfect since I'm using it for an RPG mini, but it would have been nice to have gotten a good quality mini. Would have changed my mind on Finecast. Though the other two finecast pieces I have are pretty decent. I'm not looking to scam GW, I just would like a model's quality to match the marketed quality of it (One of the reasons I don't buy "As Seen on TV stuff).
@Alf - Didn't meant to misspeak, Alf. I never thought you were trying to scam . I was just pointing out that I typically ask only for the replacement part and not a full kit. Though to be fair, it's been some time since I've needed to.
@PhantomViper -- You're right with those dates, and quite frankly I didn't realize some of them were so long ago. Again, those are just the pieces I remember off the top of my head from going through them on Monday. I still think it's a double standard, but to each his own. I guess I don't see why the new model rules (that you'll get when/if you buy the model) are that big a deal in the first place, since I assume everyone is buying the books anyway. Again, I absolutely concede that the Death from the Skies book should not have been so limited. But I don't think anything duplicitous was a factor, like so many on here seem to.
@RuneGrey -- You'll have to show me where the gargantuan/colossal rules are free online. I couldn't find them with some quick googling. I actually like WarRoom for what it is; whenever my buddy and I play, we link our iPads up and use it instead of the cards to track stuff. Personally, I like the GW digital codexes better because of their ability to cross reference and quick search, etc, but I don't think WarRoom is bad. Initially, sure, it was awful, but they've fixed most of those bugs. I only wish Corvus Belli would make an army builder app now that mirrored the great tool they have online.
cincydooley wrote: @Alf - Didn't meant to misspeak, Alf. I never thought you were trying to scam . I was just pointing out that I typically ask only for the replacement part and not a full kit. Though to be fair, it's been some time since I've needed to.
Lol, I know, but it's quite the easy thing to do. "Hey I want to do a finecast legion of the damned army..." *calls up GW* "Hey this box I bought contains exactly 0 useable models I need you to send replacements."
The lack of negativity on those forums has far more to do with the fact that there are VASTLY fewer players of said games compared to GW. The negativity will grow with the size of the company, it's pretty much a given as the more people you have participating in your forums the more negative people you will attract and they will in fact poison the well so to speak and drag the level of conversation down.
I'd disagree - Dakka has a total of 69, 290 members. Thanks to the fact that Dakka has subforums for a variety of games - and are the actual official forums for two games - I think it's safe to assume not everyone comes here for GW games (especially from what I've seen down in the Off-topic area). I know I certainly don't.
PP's forum currently has a total of 57,877 members, and Battlefront has 57,723 members.
I'd say, then, that in the participation of players on forums, GW's at least near the amount of other relatively long-running and popular wargames. It is safe to say that GW and it's games are the most discussed on Dakka? Sure, but only because there's no official GW forum, and so there are better forums to go to for other games.
M:tG also has a vastly larger player base than 40k, and yet you'll see much less criticism on their official forums. Negativity wouldn't grow exponentially if there are no reasons to be negative to the company or product.
Spoiler:
Then let us look at the fan response to WotC in regards to 4th edition Dungeons & Dragons.
I hate 4e - I will make no pretense otherwise. A lot of people felt the same way.
Some people love the game (misguided though I think that they may be).
There is a strong polarization of those that hate 4e vs. those that love 4e.
And, before people bring up WotC bashing and edition wars... WotC had the good sense to listen when they saw the slip in player base that was engendered by the polarization of that base.
The rising sales of Pathfinder vs. stagnant sales of 4e was something that they saw and acted upon.
The way they bashed their older editions in the lead up to 4e alienated a large number of players - so they are taking steps to not make that same mistake again.
I do not much like what I have seen of 5e - but it does not fill me with the quivering nerd rage that 4e did - in part because WotC has been taking steps to mend some of the bridges that they burned.
While I am not likely to play 5e neither am I likely to talk about how much I hate the game - because WotC has had the courtesy to admit to having made a mistake.
I will not play 5e, but I can wish the company well - a healthy 5e will be a good thing for the hobby in general.
I do not see a corresponding willingness to listen to their base from GW. I do not see any care about how their actions impact the hobby. beyond filling coffers.
But, like WotC, it is not impossible for GW to turn things around.
I am not likely to play Warhammer or Warhammer 40K at this point, but a healthy, vibrant, and inviting Warhammer would be a good thing for the hobby. There needs to be an entry point, and right now GW has the name recognition.
I use Kings of War and Mordheim as gateway drugs entry points - a lower startup cost is a good thing.
If GW can turn around then it will be good for the hobby, even if I do personally prefer KoW.
The Auld Grump
This one here is an excellent point, as well.
Point being, That WOTC akgnowledged the gak ups and took steps to alleveiate and get ahold of the situation. They even ASKED for fan feedback on the issues. Thier still is a good amount of issues out there on the games as well, but the issues are the ones that everyone across the board has with D and D, not just WOTC saying- "Hey, thats OUR IP, We'll do what we want to, and if you don't like it, gak you!"
I forgot to mention the public playtest... twice... and it was the major point....
Thanks for bringing it up.
There were a fair number of people that were annoyed with WotC over the secrecy surrounding the early stages of 4e - where 'secrecy' actually meant directly lying about 4e not being worked on at all, even the week before the announcement.
5e, at the very least does not have that veil cast around its conception.
GW... at least does not deny that new editions of the games are in the works. They may churn new editions out too fast... maybe... but at least they don't try to pull a surprise like that.
Mantic, in comparison, is doing much the same think that Paizo did with Pathfinder and what WotC is doing with 5e - open public tests of the rules, and listening to criticisms. (Warpath has changed a lot since the first release....)
White Dwarf has had boasts by the game designers that they didn't listen to playtesters. (In an article about the Knights of the White Wolf, I believe - back in the nineties.... Hold a grudge, me? Why, yes. Why do you ask?) It wasn't until they noticed that no one was buying the Knights that they did anything to actually make them worth their points.
I do not know whether GW listens to the testers now or not - they are amazingly reticent on, well, anything.
During the Paul Sawyer days it looked like they were trying to be a bit more open in White Dwarf - I liked the Fatter Dwarfs - but Mr. Sawyer has been gone for quite good long a while now.
The Auld Grump
*EDIT** Spoilered my quoted post - taking up too much room.
@RuneGrey -- You'll have to show me where the gargantuan/colossal rules are free online. I couldn't find them with some quick googling. I actually like WarRoom for what it is; whenever my buddy and I play, we link our iPads up and use it instead of the cards to track stuff. Personally, I like the GW digital codexes better because of their ability to cross reference and quick search, etc, but I don't think WarRoom is bad. Initially, sure, it was awful, but they've fixed most of those bugs. I only wish Corvus Belli would make an army builder app now that mirrored the great tool they have online.
They are not free online, they are free with War Room. If you go to War Room Glossary and click on the Colossal / Gargantuan link you'll have all the rules for that model category there. (not quite the same as free online)
@RuneGrey -- You'll have to show me where the gargantuan/colossal rules are free online. I couldn't find them with some quick googling. I actually like WarRoom for what it is; whenever my buddy and I play, we link our iPads up and use it instead of the cards to track stuff. Personally, I like the GW digital codexes better because of their ability to cross reference and quick search, etc, but I don't think WarRoom is bad. Initially, sure, it was awful, but they've fixed most of those bugs. I only wish Corvus Belli would make an army builder app now that mirrored the great tool they have online.
They are not free online, they are free with War Room. If you go to War Room Glossary and click on the Colossal / Gargantuan link you'll have all the rules for that model category there. (not quite the same as free online)
They're also available on Battle College as well in their entirety. I do recall them being up around the time when Colossals was launched, but they may have taken them down to push Warroom further, which wouldn't surprise me. Lord knows I have my problems with Warroom, but the content of the app is very good and all the rules are available for free to anyone who has a tablet or a laptop that can run an android emulator.
I've actually found GW's digital codexes to be more of a pain than Warroom, mainly because they keep all of their rules hidden on links in each page instead of just spelling them out. I'd much rather be able to just glance at a page and get the rules right then and there than having to touch individual elements in order to pull up what they do, although things like linking magical items and gifts available from the army list are nice. Just not... $45 nice. If I played more armies than just Warriors of Chaos (and I would like to get back into 40k just to be able to play with friends, my models are all from 2nd edition and barely make up 1000 points at best now) I'd actually find buying more codexes to be prohibitively expensive. (I've considered building a slapdash all Deathwing company list from ebay models for around $150, but even that is pushing my budget nowadays.)
As I said in another thread, irrational circle jerks of hate kinda define the interwebz. And make no mistake -- some of what goes on in forums here and elsewhere are exactly that. They certainly aren't all mature "constructive criticism."
Once you accept that, you just make decisions about your involvement. I avoid some sports forums that I frequent after my teams take a bad loss, because I know the reactionary idiots will create an unfavorable signal-to-noise ratio. After a few days, things will calm down and the conservations will get calmer and more interesting again.
IMO, Dakka is on a negative swing regarding GW right now in its natural cycle of ebbs and flows. Not that it ever gets cheerily positive regarding GW around here, but it has been more balanced at times. I think the recent trend is a shame, because I think people are missing some of the good things that GW's been doing lately...especially the majorly amped-up release cycle and the back-to-back-to-back replacement of three of the blandest codicies that GW's ever produced. But if the conversations I'd like to have are limited, then I'll just limit the time I spend here. I don't take it personally.
I'm... I'm not sure if that last bit is sarcasm or not.
I'm not sure what bit you're talking about, or why you feel your response required double "I'm"s.
1) That I tend to lose interest in a forum when I feel like there are too many irrationally negative conservations going on (note that I'm making a distinction here between that and genuine constructive criticism)? Well, I do...I have enough real-life issues and problems that I quickly glaze over when conversations turn south. I don't have the bandwidth anymore for internet drama. *shrug* And let's not pretend that all the criticism on internet forums is calm and constructive.
2) That I don't get angry about it or post angrily because I understand that's how internet forums tend to roll? I don't, at least not for quite some time. I starting lurking here around 2001(?) (don't let my post count fool you), and have obviously stuck around through a few different incarnations of the site and all kinds of ebbs and flows. Same goes for the other forums I frequent. Cripes...I go back to rec.games.miniatures.warhammer. I know how it goes.
3) Or that 40K players are about to receive 3 codicies (replacing some real dogs) and 2 supplements in a 6-7 month period (with possibly two more xeno codicies to come this year)? That's about 18 months' worth of stuff at GW's traditional pace. They're actually starting to pay some attention to FAQs and errata too. GW has clearly made some mistakes lately, but IMO the overall tone here lately doesn't quite reflect the proper ratio of positive and negative going on with GW. YMMV. But IMO it's a shame that some people are kinda missing some really good developments from GW alongside their missteps.
I've actually found GW's digital codexes to be more of a pain than Warroom, mainly because they keep all of their rules hidden on links in each page instead of just spelling them out. I'd much rather be able to just glance at a page and get the rules right then and there than having to touch individual elements in order to pull up what they do, although things like linking magical items and gifts available from the army list are nice. Just not... $45 nice. If I played more armies than just Warriors of Chaos (and I would like to get back into 40k just to be able to play with friends, my models are all from 2nd edition and barely make up 1000 points at best now) I'd actually find buying more codexes to be prohibitively expensive. (I've considered building a slapdash all Deathwing company list from ebay models for around $150, but even that is pushing my budget nowadays.)
I think the GW digital codexes are almost worth their price. Sure, a lower price would absolutely be more palatable, but they aren't simple PDF conversions of the printed book. Because of this value add, I understand the reasoning for an increased price, though I certainly wish they were lower. Personally, I'd prefer if they did Codex/Digital bundles for $65-70. I'd buy those in a heart beat. That pricing goes into a whole different discussion regarding whether or not they're 'worth' $50. I think, based on current similar publications, they're close. A similarly bound and published graphic novel (I think the Vertigo Hardcovers for Fables, Y the Last Man are a good comparison) are $30, with an arguably similar level of content. I think a price point of $40 for the codexes would be more palatable, but I'm not angry about them at $50, especially considering how nice the Chaos and DA dexes look.
In WarRoom, the Glossary must be an online only thing, as I don't seem to be able to access it offline. Unless I'm using it incorrectly, which is entirely possible.
cincydooley wrote: In WarRoom, the Glossary must be an online only thing, as I don't seem to be able to access it offline. Unless I'm using it incorrectly, which is entirely possible.
Are you logged in at all? You can still be "logged in" but offline, and I'm looking at the rules reference right now although my phone has no data.
cincydooley wrote: In WarRoom, the Glossary must be an online only thing, as I don't seem to be able to access it offline. Unless I'm using it incorrectly, which is entirely possible.
Are you logged in at all? You can still be "logged in" but offline, and I'm looking at the rules reference right now although my phone has no data.
Haha, It says I need to be online to be logged in. Maybe I'm misunderstanding glossary. I have the reference tab. I think it's the same thing.
cincydooley wrote: In WarRoom, the Glossary must be an online only thing, as I don't seem to be able to access it offline. Unless I'm using it incorrectly, which is entirely possible.
Are you logged in at all? You can still be "logged in" but offline, and I'm looking at the rules reference right now although my phone has no data.
Haha, It says I need to be online to be logged in. Maybe I'm misunderstanding glossary. I have the reference tab. I think it's the same thing.
Yea, the Reference section has all the rules for Gargossals
And besides that, I can change something, if pointing out the number of GWs flaws makes people think about what they buy and question GWs actions then as long as I get even one person thinking critically instead of being a apathetic push over then its a win. One day I hope GW will stop acting like dicks and start grasping the money gaining ability that is treating your customers with respect and value. Contrary to popular belief most people that fight and complain about GW dont want the company to fail, in fact they want the exact opposite, they want them to succeed, because we all know GW can be better, and has been better.
If you buy something GW your an apathetic pushover?
No, Im saying question what you buy, understand why it is what it is, and if unfair, then find ways around it (discounters etc). You're an apathetic push over if you blindly buy the stuff and then defend GW like there is nothing wrong, you're akin to grossly fat people that are some how unaware eating fast food is bad.
And besides that, I can change something, if pointing out the number of GWs flaws makes people think about what they buy and question GWs actions then as long as I get even one person thinking critically instead of being a apathetic push over then its a win. One day I hope GW will stop acting like dicks and start grasping the money gaining ability that is treating your customers with respect and value. Contrary to popular belief most people that fight and complain about GW dont want the company to fail, in fact they want the exact opposite, they want them to succeed, because we all know GW can be better, and has been better.
If you buy something GW your an apathetic pushover?
No, Im saying question what you buy, understand why it is what it is, and if unfair, then find ways around it (discounters etc). You're an apathetic push over if you blindly buy the stuff and then defend GW like there is nothing wrong, you're akin to grossly fat people that are some how unaware eating fast food is bad.
I think this statement highlights two of the primary pieces that even create arguments like this: unfair and wrong.
I think it's entirely inappropriate to look at 'fairness' when it comes to lesiure good pricing. I've never once thought it was "unfair" that Audi's are so much more expensive than Kia's. It is what it is. The manufacturers have determined that they can charge higher prices for Audi's and get the profit margin they're looking for, so they do it. The same goes for GW. I'd guarantee they have accountants and pricing teams that couldn't care less what Warhammer 40k the game is and look at Cost-Benefit analyses and pricing charts. Once they see negative trends with their profits, thats when we'd see changes.
As to the 'wrongness' : I think that directly ties into something being "unfair." One of the funniest things to me is that I'd think folks in the UK would love GW simply because they do produce so much in the UK and don't outsource to China. In that regard, they have to be considered a pretty ethical company, right?
Again, a lot of these are predicated on morality and ethical discussion that, for all intents and purposes, don't apply here, coupled with the fact that so many folks on Dakka are convinced they know how to run GW better than GW does....
Then why does it taste so damn good? I mean at least with a Big Mac, I'm not left with a bad taste in my mouth.
Quick get this man some help! You live in Ohio! Steak n' Shake man, Steak n' Shake! You have Five Guys also. There are too few meals to consume in our lifetime to be wasted on McDonalds.
Just to post my thoughts, on the "community" here. DakkaDakka has evolved from a GW/40k forum to more of a general tabletop gaming forum. The anti-GW bias can be broken down to four groups.
1. People with legitimate/valid complaints.
2. People with unreasonable complaints.
3. People pushing alternate systems.
4. People who would like to buy an argument.
Don't list trolls because they appear in groups 2 - 4. Though I do feel that the arguing has started to take a nasty turn. HBMC summed it up in another thread, we're starting to sound like a bunch of Xbox vs PS fanboys.
TheAuldGrump wrote: GW... at least does not deny that new editions of the games are in the works. They may churn new editions out too fast... maybe... but at least they don't try to pull a surprise like that.
They don't deny that they're working on new stuff, but they don't tell us what that new stuff is, or when to expect it.
I don't recall there being any particular secrecy around 4e, but then I wasn't really following D&D at the time. But from my time hanging around the WotC site back when Star Wars Minis and War at Sea were going strong, I do recall WotC having a list up on the site detailing major upcoming releases for the next 12 months.
GW, by contrast... Unless you follow internet rumour-mongering, you have no way of knowing whether the codex you buy today will be obsolete next week.
Then why does it taste so damn good? I mean at least with a Big Mac, I'm not left with a bad taste in my mouth.
Quick get this man some help! You live in Ohio! Steak n' Shake man, Steak n' Shake! You have Five Guys also. There are too few meals to consume in our lifetime to be wasted on McDonalds.
Steak n' Shake is garbage almost on par with McDonalds, Five Guys is fantastic however . I've got one within walking distance the McDonalds is a little farther away
cincydooley wrote: ...
As to the 'wrongness' : I think that directly ties into something being "unfair." One of the funniest things to me is that I'd think folks in the UK would love GW simply because they do produce so much in the UK and don't outsource to China. In that regard, they have to be considered a pretty ethical company, right?
Again, a lot of these are predicated on morality and ethical discussion that, for all intents and purposes, don't apply here, coupled with the fact that so many folks on Dakka are convinced they know how to run GW better than GW does....
From 3 pages ago,
Buzzsaw wrote: ...
It's worth pointing out that GW suffers from deficits that, to my knowledge, no other major game producers suffer from: the nature and extent of their legal overreach, which can fairly be characterized as unethical, possibly going so far as illegal.
The closest correlate would be the incident where PP asked the developer of iBodger to stop development on his app, as they were coming out with their own Warroom app. But taking the app down was the voluntary actions of a fan, not a reaction to a C&D letter.
Whatever one thinks of Corvus Belli, Privateer Press, Mantic or whatever*, chances are your quarrels with them are based on aesthetics or other game based problems. With GW, there is a credible allegation that they are engaged in systematic abuse of the legal system. It's a whole other level of problem with a corporation.
*Except, of course, Mierce Miniatures, but that's a discussion for another thread.
Putting aside all issues of price or rules sets or customer support, any discussion that veers into questions of ethics cannot avoid the pattern of behavior that GW has engaged in with regards to enforcement of "their" Intellectual Property. A pattern of behavior that can fairly be interpreted to be abusive of their position and improper.
The simple fact is that the allegations against GW are credible and they are serious. While it is entirely appropriate to point out that these remain allegations, it's also fair to point out that (insofar as I am aware) no similar allegations exist against GW's competitors (again, with notable exceptions of MM and C'MoN, but those issues are best discussed elsewhere).
TheAuldGrump wrote: GW... at least does not deny that new editions of the games are in the works. They may churn new editions out too fast... maybe... but at least they don't try to pull a surprise like that.
They don't deny that they're working on new stuff, but they don't tell us what that new stuff is, or when to expect it.
White Dwarf was still pushing Assault on Black Reach in the month before the release of 6th edition, which I thought was particularly low. Although you have to assume that any staff in a GW wouldn't be -Edited- enough to sell someone that boxset when they knew that the next version was a few weeks ahead, there would definitely have been the potential for the uninformed to be caught out and make a purchase over the internet.
Edited by insaniak. Please do not circumvent the language filter.
Buzzsaw wrote: Putting aside all issues of price or rules sets or customer support, any discussion that veers into questions of ethics cannot avoid the pattern of behavior that GW has engaged in with regards to enforcement of "their" Intellectual Property. A pattern of behavior that can fairly be interpreted to be abusive of their position and improper.
The simple fact is that the allegations against GW are credible and they are serious. While it is entirely appropriate to point out that these remain allegations, it's also fair to point out that (insofar as I am aware) no similar allegations exist against GW's competitors (again, with notable exceptions of MM and C'MoN, but those issues are best discussed elsewhere).
Thanks for the links, Buzz.
I read the first one, and this part really struck me:
Games Workshop is being aggressive here, no doubt. It *might* have common-law trademark rights in SPACE MARINE for novels. By and large, we allow rights holders to push the boundaries of their rights a bit. When the person being pushed against is much, much smaller than the party doing the pushing, we sometimes call it bullying. In this case, it might be a bit much to call it “bullying.”* Games Workshop hasn’t really threatened anyone. It hasn’t threatened to sue Ms. Hogarth. It didn’t even appear to threaten Amazon. All it did was, in essence, ask Amazon to remove Spots the Space Marine from Amazon’s Kindle offerings. Which Amazon did. No questions asked. Games Workshop barely had to work up a sweat.
Bullying the little guy, sure. But the action taken by Amazon seems to be the more questionable. Now, bear in mind I'm not a big legalities guy here, and I agree that GW is probably bullish in many regards concerning it's IP, but I question whether or not it's entirely unwarranted. I wonder, sometimes, how much being burned by Blizzard affects some of their legal decision making.
In reading the DCMA, the way I understand it based on your linked article is that GW COULD apply for the trademark, but in regards to literature is unlikely to win. Is that right?
I still dont know if, to me, it's a question of ethics in regards to GW's handling of the Chapterhouse suit. Personally, I hope GW smashes them into tiny pieces and bankrupts the company, if only because of Chapterhouse's arrogance in their exploitation of GWs IP. But then again, I'm hardly an IP expert.
What is clear from the Chapterhouse suit is that IP in regards to this type of product is INCREDIBLY murky.
I don't know enough about GWs corporate footprint in the UK, but again, I'd think the fact that they produce so much in the UK instead of sourcing to China where it would be infinitely cheaper should speak to something...
They don't deny that they're working on new stuff, but they don't tell us what that new stuff is, or when to expect it.
I don't recall there being any particular secrecy around 4e, but then I wasn't really following D&D at the time. But from my time hanging around the WotC site back when Star Wars Minis and War at Sea were going strong, I do recall WotC having a list up on the site detailing major upcoming releases for the next 12 months.
GW, by contrast... Unless you follow internet rumour-mongering, you have no way of knowing whether the codex you buy today will be obsolete next week.
WOTC was quite open about what they were doing once they announced 4e was on the horizen. Even now, with 5th on the way its even more open. Both editions,whether you liked 4e or not, was pretty well know what they were doing. Hell they even released preview type books for 4e:
Buzzsaw wrote: Putting aside all issues of price or rules sets or customer support, any discussion that veers into questions of ethics cannot avoid the pattern of behavior that GW has engaged in with regards to enforcement of "their" Intellectual Property. A pattern of behavior that can fairly be interpreted to be abusive of their position and improper.
The simple fact is that the allegations against GW are credible and they are serious. While it is entirely appropriate to point out that these remain allegations, it's also fair to point out that (insofar as I am aware) no similar allegations exist against GW's competitors (again, with notable exceptions of MM and C'MoN, but those issues are best discussed elsewhere).
Thanks for the links, Buzz.
I read the first one, and this part really struck me:
Games Workshop is being aggressive here, no doubt. It *might* have common-law trademark rights in SPACE MARINE for novels. By and large, we allow rights holders to push the boundaries of their rights a bit. When the person being pushed against is much, much smaller than the party doing the pushing, we sometimes call it bullying. In this case, it might be a bit much to call it “bullying.”* Games Workshop hasn’t really threatened anyone. It hasn’t threatened to sue Ms. Hogarth. It didn’t even appear to threaten Amazon. All it did was, in essence, ask Amazon to remove Spots the Space Marine from Amazon’s Kindle offerings. Which Amazon did. No questions asked. Games Workshop barely had to work up a sweat.
Bullying the little guy, sure. But the action taken by Amazon seems to be the more questionable. Now, bear in mind I'm not a big legalities guy here, and I agree that GW is probably bullish in many regards concerning it's IP, but I question whether or not it's entirely unwarranted. I wonder, sometimes, how much being burned by Blizzard affects some of their legal decision making.
In reading the DCMA, the way I understand it based on your linked article is that GW COULD apply for the trademark, but in regards to literature is unlikely to win. Is that right?
I still dont know if, to me, it's a question of ethics in regards to GW's handling of the Chapterhouse suit. Personally, I hope GW smashes them into tiny pieces and bankrupts the company, if only because of Chapterhouse's arrogance in their exploitation of GWs IP. But then again, I'm hardly an IP expert.
What is clear from the Chapterhouse suit is that IP in regards to this type of product is INCREDIBLY murky.
I don't know enough about GWs corporate footprint in the UK, but again, I'd think the fact that they produce so much in the UK instead of sourcing to China where it would be infinitely cheaper should speak to something...
There is no point agruing with you then, not only do you support bad and unethical behaviour, you encourage it. You are given evidence and give back nothing. I never use the ignore button, but this is the first time thought about it, Ive never seen someone who is so stubbornly ignorant.
There is no point agruing with you then, not only do you support bad and unethical behaviour, you encourage it. You are given evidence and give back nothing. I never use the ignore button, but this is the first time thought about it, Ive never seen someone who is so stubbornly ignorant.
Ignore him why? For having a differing opinion?
This entire thread is pointless then, everyone has an opinion.
I think the whole discussion is fething stupid because at the end of the day, something is only worth however much an individual is willing to pay for it. GW is too expensive for you (and me generally) but it isnt for many many others, why is that even discussion worthy? Either they will get the balance correct and make even more profit, or they will break the back of the price to sales ratio and profits will go down. Its the decision of the board rightly or wrongly, I still don't get why people like so are so turbo pissed about the fact that some people place less value on their money or have large enough disposable incomes that they are willing to pay it.
They aren't "stubborn" they aren't "ignorant" they just place more or less value on an item than you do.
I only play a game once a month, so I've stopped buying more models, Ive got a couple thousand points, I will probably spend less than $50 at GW this year.. but I spend at least $500 a month going on the beer with my mates. Many call that a waste, I don't because I really enjoy it. Each to their own. Its the exact same thing with any other hobby, minis or otherwise.
I don't see what your problem is with the bloke, he's even agreeing with you on many points (as am I) I don't think he is saying he supports unethical behaviour, he is saying that is the companies business. GW clearly could do loads of things better, or more morally, and they could drop the price, but they choose not to, so that's just the way of it.
You wont buy,, ill buy hardly anything, many will buy loads. Each and every person has a differing opinion on how much its acceptable to "waste" on a hobby, and time will tell how things pan out for the company, but why on earth do you get so pissed about it?
There is no point agruing with you then, not only do you support bad and unethical behaviour, you encourage it. You are given evidence and give back nothing. I never use the ignore button, but this is the first time thought about it, Ive never seen someone who is so stubbornly ignorant.
Ignore him why? For having a differing opinion?
This entire thread is pointless then, everyone has an opinion.
I think the whole discussion is fething stupid because at the end of the day, something is only worth however much an individual is willing to pay for it. GW is too expensive for you (and me generally) but it isnt for many many others, why is that even discussion worthy? Either they will get the balance correct and make even more profit, or they will break the back of the price to sales ratio and profits will go down. Its the decision of the board rightly or wrongly, I still don't get why people like so are so turbo pissed about the fact that some people place less value on their money or have large enough disposable incomes that they are willing to pay it.
They aren't "stubborn" they aren't "ignorant" they just place more or less value on an item than you do.
I only play a game once a month, so I've stopped buying more models, Ive got a couple thousand points, I will probably spend less than $50 at GW this year.. but I spend at least $500 a month going on the beer with my mates. Many call that a waste, I don't because I really enjoy it. Each to their own. Its the exact same thing with any other hobby, minis or otherwise.
I don't see what your problem is with the bloke, he's even agreeing with you on many points (as am I) I don't think he is saying he supports unethical behaviour, he is saying that is the companies business. GW clearly could do loads of things better, or more morally, and they could drop the price, but they choose not to, so that's just the way of it.
You wont buy,, ill buy hardly anything, many will buy loads. Each and every person has a differing opinion on how much its acceptable to "waste" on a hobby, and time will tell how things pan out for the company, but why on earth do you get so pissed about it?
Why you gotta say "at the end of the day" man? Why you gotta do that?
You're correct about the pricing issue. There is no pricing issue. Just people that are mad because they can't buy as much of the product as they used to be able to at a certain amount of X currency. I think any vehicle priced at over $30,000 US is stupid and a waste of money. I don't go around bashing people for buying expensive vehicles though.
There is no point agruing with you then, not only do you support bad and unethical behaviour, you encourage it. You are given evidence and give back nothing. I never use the ignore button, but this is the first time thought about it, Ive never seen someone who is so stubbornly ignorant.
Not sure how you got any of that from my response.
I understand GW aggressively protecting their IP. The the article Buzz linked, the expert states that GW is bullying. I get that. I guess I just don't see it being unethical. Inconsiderate? Probably. Mean? Possibly. But I don't know about unethical. Do they own the trademark for the digital literature version of "Space Marine?" According to the article, no. But, again based on that article, it seems like it's more due to the fact that they wouldn't be able to get it than anything. Like the article states, they didn't sue, and they didn't pursue it further. Isn't the onus on Amazon to complete the due diligence he lists? If they had, the author could have responded in kind, GW would have been forced to say, yeah, you called our bluff, we don't own that trademark, and it would have been over, right?
Perhaps I just need it explained better in the overall context, but I don't really understand how Russ Nicholson's story was amount to suborning perjury. Was the purpose that they were trying to get Nicholson to say they'd commissioned and paid for the full piece? Again, I think I just dont understand it in the whole context.
In the Gary Chaulk incident, I guess I again need more contextual explanation how they fabricated evidence. Are they claiming that Chaulk gave them permission to sue, or had granted them permanent publication rights nad not just first publication rights?
And how much of the Chapterhouse case comes from the fact that IP law in regards to artwork and miniatures and their derivative works is so grey in the first place? I'd love for someone that knows what they're talking about to explain that to me in a PM if they're willing.
I agree that GW's claim to rights concerning "Space Marine" is unethical. The concept of space marines and title should be common property (or whatever the exact wording is for it). Space Marines as a warrior-cult of genetically modified superhumans in baroque power armor serving their god-father-Emperor should be exclusive to GW...to an extent, that part is the gray area.
You're correct about the pricing issue. There is no pricing issue. Just people that are mad because they can't buy as much of the product as they used to be able to at a certain amount of X currency. I think any vehicle priced at over $30,000 US is stupid and a waste of money. I don't go around bashing people for buying expensive vehicles though.
No, actually. There is an issue about prcinng, see 1 million threads on them. Their prices have risen far beyond inflation. Their public records show they are selling less units at higher prices. Other threads, especially with our canadian or aussie forumites show that their pricing there has no bearing on reality of currency.
How exactly is that a pricing issue? They can charge anything they want for their product. That is not a problem, that is capitalism. If they make a profit, it is successful. If they maximize their profits, even better. If they lose money, then, and only then, is there a problem and that doesn't necessarily mean that it is a problem with pricing.
No one can say beyond reasonable doubt that the price increase is not justified without having access to GW's accounts.
DarknessEternal wrote: Ignore the things you can't change and move on with your life then. You'll be happier.
Said BP over the massive oil spill.
Apathy and ignorance are not an answer, they're a cop out. If there is a problem you deal with, you dont go and hide under a pile of coats in mom and dads room.
To stick to your metaphor: I am pretty sure that hundreds of people yelling at the oil would not have made it turn back either
I'm glad we aren't overstating the magnitude of the issue, though.
Surely the destruction of the economy of the southern US is comparable in scale to the price of space manz.
Amaya wrote: How exactly is that a pricing issue? They can charge anything they want for their product.
Of course they can. And when they charge this customer one price and that customer a different price, people will complain.
Imagine walking into a coffee shop, and having them just arbitrarily charge you twice as much as the guy in front of you because you live in a different neighbourhood.
Amaya wrote: How exactly is that a pricing issue? They can charge anything they want for their product.
Of course they can. And when they charge this customer one price and that customer a different price, people will complain.
Imagine walking into a coffee shop, and having them just arbitrarily charge you twice as much as the guy in front of you because you live in a different neighbourhood.
I'm pretty sure everyone who pays even the least bit of attention to these arguments is sick and tired of Australians and New Zealanders complaining about price mark ups. Yes, you get charged more. As far as we can tell the markup seems excessively higher than the actual shipping cost. We get it, it sucks to be you. Your region specific problem doesn't have any bearing on this issue though. Y'all were paying out the donkey cave before GW decided to expirement with price hiking.
There is no point agruing with you then, not only do you support bad and unethical behaviour, you encourage it. You are given evidence and give back nothing. I never use the ignore button, but this is the first time thought about it, Ive never seen someone who is so stubbornly ignorant.
Ignore him why? For having a differing opinion?
This entire thread is pointless then, everyone has an opinion.
I think the whole discussion is fething stupid because at the end of the day, something is only worth however much an individual is willing to pay for it. GW is too expensive for you (and me generally) but it isnt for many many others, why is that even discussion worthy? Either they will get the balance correct and make even more profit, or they will break the back of the price to sales ratio and profits will go down. Its the decision of the board rightly or wrongly, I still don't get why people like so are so turbo pissed about the fact that some people place less value on their money or have large enough disposable incomes that they are willing to pay it.
They aren't "stubborn" they aren't "ignorant" they just place more or less value on an item than you do.
I only play a game once a month, so I've stopped buying more models, Ive got a couple thousand points, I will probably spend less than $50 at GW this year.. but I spend at least $500 a month going on the beer with my mates. Many call that a waste, I don't because I really enjoy it. Each to their own. Its the exact same thing with any other hobby, minis or otherwise.
I don't see what your problem is with the bloke, he's even agreeing with you on many points (as am I) I don't think he is saying he supports unethical behaviour, he is saying that is the companies business. GW clearly could do loads of things better, or more morally, and they could drop the price, but they choose not to, so that's just the way of it.
You wont buy,, ill buy hardly anything, many will buy loads. Each and every person has a differing opinion on how much its acceptable to "waste" on a hobby, and time will tell how things pan out for the company, but why on earth do you get so pissed about it?
At this point, and over this posted Thread on Dakka, I 100% agree with Mattyrm on this one.
And I'd like to throw it out there that the OP set this up as a trap that people have whoeheartedly jumped right into. Not that he's been back since page... 2-3?
But at this point, and into the direction that this circle logic is going, the points are being whipped like a government mule.
I will beat on that gluefactory with reckless abandon, but when it serves to honestly make a point or say something.
NOW? No gents and ladies, this thread is turned into a self destructive gak fest. The OP needs to be censured for this, and seeing that they are the ones that posted some yap about "Responsibility", and then drop out of the conversation without coming back to retort the discussion? No, the thread has gone beyond honest conversation.
This is just getting into one of those needless argumentives about white knights, and haters... again.
Blindly defending GW would be white knighting. I haven't really seen anyone doing that. There are however, a multitude of vocal haters that appear to not understand simple economics who believe the price increase should only be in relation to inflation.
Ask an Aussie forumite how much he pays for the SAME model you buy in US currency. Currency exchange generally is suppose to dictate what someone pays for a product when crossing borders. Its like you ordering forge world and them charging you 3 times the amount when the dollar vs pound is only 1.5 to 1 in exchange. Add to it disallowing any retailer not in that hemisphere the ability to sell to the poor aussies. A not captialist idea of itself.
Thats the pricing issue.
No one can say beyond reasonable doubt that the price increase is not justified without having access to GW's accounts.
Unsupportable. You're white knighting GW. Its already been proven that the rises dont go with inflation. And of course, they have absolutely lied about past increases(tin prices and finecast price rises).
The only people who care about it are Australians and New Zealanders. Don't buy the product or buy from an alternative source.
As long as there are those willing to pay it, GW will continue to charge those prices because their profit margin on Aus/NZ sales is probably excellent.
Amaya wrote: The only people who care about it are Australians and New Zealanders. Don't buy the product or buy from an alternative source.
Untrue. More folks have cared about it that werent in those countries if you paid any attention. They cant buy from alternative sources since GW killed that as well.
As long as there are those willing to pay it, GW will continue to charge those prices because their profit margin on Aus/NZ sales is probably excellent.
Not really. Not according to their finacial statements that they keep releasing. In fact its been postulated that the whole reason for the embargo of allowing to sell from northern hemisphere is to increase their profit margins that it was not good to begin with.
Any other ideas you wish to white knight while not having any facts?
Now that you've established you have no interest in sensible discourse, perhaps you should leave.
GW is not required to charge whatever anyone thinks is a fair price. It is impossible to assess what a fair price actually is even with all the data. Very little data is available to the public concerning GW's accounts.
You can not complain that the price is unfair. All you can do is say that you dislike the price. This is not a homogenous market. Competitors provide similar, not identical products. If two companies are selling the exact same product at say, $10 and $100, you could argue that one of those is an unfair price, but without all the facts you could not say which one. For all you know the $10 is being manufactured from what amounts to slave labor. Perhaps the $100 product actually has a total cost of $5 and they are gouging the customer.
GW provides a unique, non essential, superior good. As long as demand exists for the product they are free to charge the customer whatever they want. There is no ethical issue at play here. Only disgruntled customers that are angry that their purchasing power has been reduced.
Amaya wrote: Blindly defending GW would be white knighting. I haven't really seen anyone doing that. There are however, a multitude of vocal haters that appear to not understand simple economics who believe the price increase should only be in relation to inflation.
Hmm. You dismissed people complaining about prices as 'haters' and you also assumed a reason for their complaint. You're not trying to understand the problem, you're just defining it on your own terms and dismissing it.
I'm not from Oz or NZ and I think the fact that they pay nearly double what we do when their currency is valued at near the same is pretty crappy. None of us know why that is. Is it tarrif and import costs? I have no idea. And I'm pretty sure GW has never been forthright about it.
With that being said, if that's their pricing structure and methodology, it makes perfect sense that GW would ban non-Aussie sales to Oz, at it completely undercuts any GW stores locate in Australia.
And until GW provides an explanation to their pricing methodology for the Southern Hemisphere, we won't be able to do anything but say, "wow, that seems really unfair."
But then again, you all have the LotR landscape, tons of beautiful blonde women, great weather, and kangaroos. So I don't feel too bad.
GW provides a unique, non essential, superior good. As long as demand exists for the product they are free to charge the customer whatever they want. There is no ethical issue at play here. Only disgruntled customers that are angry that their purchasing power has been reduced.
Amaya wrote: Blindly defending GW would be white knighting. I haven't really seen anyone doing that. There are however, a multitude of vocal haters that appear to not understand simple economics who believe the price increase should only be in relation to inflation.
Hmm. You dismissed people complaining about prices as 'haters' and you also assumed a reason for their complaint. You're not trying to understand the problem, you're just defining it on your own terms and dismissing it.
What you just did there? That's White Knighting.
Please show me where I said everyone complaining about prices is a hater.
Amaya wrote: I'm pretty sure everyone who pays even the least bit of attention to these arguments is sick and tired of Australians and New Zealanders complaining about price mark ups. Yes, you get charged more. As far as we can tell the markup seems excessively higher than the actual shipping cost. We get it, it sucks to be you. Your region specific problem doesn't have any bearing on this issue though. Y'all were paying out the donkey cave before GW decided to expirement with price hiking.
For starters, it's not just Australians and New Zealanders affected by GW's regional pricing... And despite your attempts to make it so, the 'issue' under discussion here is community response to GW, not whether or not price hikes are something to get excited about.
Amaya wrote: Blindly defending GW would be white knighting. I haven't really seen anyone doing that. There are however, a multitude of vocal haters that appear to not understand simple economics who believe the price increase should only be in relation to inflation.
Hmm. You dismissed people complaining about prices as 'haters' and you also assumed a reason for their complaint. You're not trying to understand the problem, you're just defining it on your own terms and dismissing it.
What you just did there? That's White Knighting.
Please show me where I said everyone complaining about prices is a hater.
For starters, it's not just Australians and New Zealanders affected by GW's regional pricing... And despite your attempts to make it so, the 'issue' under discussion here is community response to GW, not whether or not price hikes are something to get excited about.
Amaya wrote: Blindly defending GW would be white knighting. I haven't really seen anyone doing that. There are however, a multitude of vocal haters that appear to not understand simple economics who believe the price increase should only be in relation to inflation.
Hmm. You dismissed people complaining about prices as 'haters' and you also assumed a reason for their complaint. You're not trying to understand the problem, you're just defining it on your own terms and dismissing it.
What you just did there? That's White Knighting.
Please show me where I said everyone complaining about prices is a hater.
Nowhere. Nobody said you did.
Stay classy.
And what did I specifically say that the vocal haters were doing?
Do you always result to cliches and insults when you can't formulate your own ideas and argument?
Ask an Aussie forumite how much he pays for the SAME model you buy in US currency. Currency exchange generally is suppose to dictate what someone pays for a product when crossing borders. Its like you ordering forge world and them charging you 3 times the amount when the dollar vs pound is only 1.5 to 1 in exchange. Add to it disallowing any retailer not in that hemisphere the ability to sell to the poor aussies. A not captialist idea of itself.
Thats the pricing issue.
No one can say beyond reasonable doubt that the price increase is not justified without having access to GW's accounts.
Unsupportable. You're white knighting GW. Its already been proven that the rises dont go with inflation. And of course, they have absolutely lied about past increases(tin prices and finecast price rises).
A couple things. First, GW isn't the only company charging quite a bit more for product sold in Australia. Many other companies do as well. Given that it's pretty widespread, I think there's something else going on and Australians need to look at their own government and international trade laws to get this figured out. Does GW charge Aussies more? Yep. So does Adobe, Apple, MS and others. Interestingly, the Australian government is only looking into IT price issues; so, again, if you are an Australian ask your own government about what's going on. I have my guesses, but that's a longer discussion.
Regarding price increasing being justified or not. GW is a corporate entity; the only justification they need to increase prices is when they go to their shareholders to show an increase in profits. There are very very few things sold whose retail price has anything at all to do with production costs. In nearly all markets, retail price is driven by what customers will pay vs number of units shipped. Review the first 3 paragraphs of the wiki article on price elasticity. You don't have to wade through the math to understand it.
Further, arguing that it's not tied to inflation is stupid. Of course it's not. Inflation is defined by a general rise in the prices of goods. That has absolutely nothing at all to do with what a single company is doing with their price models. Heck, I have my own business (not wargaming related) and I can promise you our prices have absolutely zero correlation to inflation and depend entirely on the most amount of money we can get for given production levels. If I thought I could raise prices 50% tomorrow and keep the same, or higher, revenue levels I'd do it.
Essentially, GW, PP and others have recently (last few years) been testing various price points to see exactly what the price elasticity of their products are. I said late last year that I felt they were close to zeroing in on a good balance between units shipped at a given price point; and I think the DA and Daemons releases are proving that.
Side note, if you've been watching Black Library you'd notice that they have been experimenting with various book types and price ranges. You have to watch these pretty much weekly to see how things are being repackaged and sold. As an example, Angel Exterminatus originally cost $16US as an "enhanced ebook" and $30 as a hardback. Given that 3 months later they are now selling the "regular ebook" edition for $8 you can safely bet that few people were willing to pay $16 for an ebook and so they are repricing. They have had a few recent titles in the $9 and $12 range as well. Again, feeling out the market.
Also, with each new army update, GW pushes the prices on various units. Then they watch to see what the reception is. You'll notice the latest prices for the Daemons models that are coming out aren't quite as high as you'd expect given the DA release; that isn't by accident. You'll notice the Chariots are $40 not $60+; which indicates they are dialing things back a bit in that area. However, $25 for certain characters seems to indicate they are testing to see if people will handle slightly higher HQ costs.
My point is simply this: complaining about prices is absolutely stupid. The ONLY way price points will change is when demand changes enough to cause a real drop in revenue. Which means, if you don't like the prices, stop buying the plastic. And I don't mean simply moving to a discounter, as that has little impact on GW itself. Rather stop buying the product entirely and move on. I am not a white knight, rather I'm just a business owner who sees exactly what's going on.
clively wrote: A couple things. First, GW isn't the only company charging quite a bit more for product sold in Australia. Many other companies do as well. Given that it's pretty widespread, I think there's something else going on and Australians need to look at their own government and international trade laws to get this figured out. Does GW charge Aussies more? Yep. So does Adobe, Apple, MS and others. Interestingly, the Australian government is only looking into IT price issues; so, again, if you are an Australian ask your own government about what's going on. I have my guesses, but that's a longer discussion.
Many companies do, yes... And the reason is simple: We'r a country that imports practically everything except basic foodstuff, and much of the retail sector is still working off pricing that was set back when the Oz dollar was worth half as much as it is now.
The reason it's becoming more of an issue now is simply that internet shopping is finally taking off in Australia, and people are starting to realise just how big the disparity is, and are starting to complain about it.
Complaining to the government won't achieve much. Complaining to the companies choosing to still follow outdating pricing practices will.
And again, this isn't just Australia. Canada pays nearly as much as we do, and their stock is shipping out of the same warehouse as customers in the US.
My point is simply this: complaining about prices is absolutely stupid. The ONLY way price points will change is when demand changes enough to cause a real drop in revenue. Which means, if you don't like the prices, stop buying the plastic.
Are you assuming that people aren't doing both?
People will complain when they see a problem with something that matters to them. And for those of us with years and dollars already invested, this game does matter. Those complaints may or may not achieve anything (that's arguable)... but forcing a company to change its ways isn't the sole aim of discussion. Sometimes, the purpose is just, you know, discussion.
People will complain when they see a problem with something that matters to them. And for those of us with years and dollars already invested, this game does matter. Those complaints may or may not achieve anything (that's arguable)... but forcing a company to change its ways isn't the sole aim of discussion. Sometimes, the purpose is just, you know, discussion.
Don't pretend to be encouraging discussion when you allow people to throw around the inflammatory "white knight" term at anyone who disagrees with them. Heck, moderators encourage that sort of activity when they join in the crowd of "these prices are unfair!" and criticize everyone who attempts to defend or explains GW's actions. You can argue that the price increase is insulting to their customer base, alienating, disrespectful, etc, but you can not make a logical argument for the price fluxuations as being unfair.
All that happens is that a bunch of poster who either don't understand economics (or don't want to discuss it) get pissy with each other and disrupt the forums. A good portion of the negativity directed towards GW is based on these supposedly unfair price increases. That's fine if it is kept to specific threads, but moderators shouldn't allow it to spill over into what seems to be every other thread about GW.
When I was looking into getting back into GW games a year and a half or so ago, I read about the embargo, as it stood out as one of the contentious issues around them. GW's official response was basically that they maintain hobby stores where you can come in and play or otherwise get a high level of help and service and that paying Australian staff and rent isn't any cheaper than it was. I sort of thought that sounded reasonable enough - though bear in mind, I was looking at LotR, which is still a lot cheaper than 40k, and this was before they cut the troop boxes in half. I just said to myself that I'd have to remember to take advantage of the stores being there frequently since I was paying for them with the box price.
My boyfriend at the time couldn't get over the sticker shock, though, to the degree that he could never get enthusiastic about the game (even not having paid for it himself) because all he could think about was how much it cost.
Tenuously tying this back to the topic, though, a lot of people have this weird idea that you should charge a fair price for your goods and services based on their worth and a reasonable expectation of profit rather than charging whatever you think will generate the maximum possible revenue. They think you shouldn't rip people off even if, due to market factors, you have the opportunity. Perhaps that's old fashioned. It is something that engenders very negative reactions, though, and even for those of us who initially accept the prices that reaction can be triggered by the price hikes.
Complaining to the government won't achieve much. Complaining to the companies choosing to still follow outdating pricing practices will.
And again, this isn't just Australia. Canada pays nearly as much as we do, and their stock is shipping out of the same warehouse as customers in the US.
Complaining to the companies won't do anything as long as people are still paying those prices. If Canadians are willing to pay a 20% premium over what the US pays then more power to GW for getting it.
My point is simply this: complaining about prices is absolutely stupid. The ONLY way price points will change is when demand changes enough to cause a real drop in revenue. Which means, if you don't like the prices, stop buying the plastic.
Are you assuming that people aren't doing both?
People will complain when they see a problem with something that matters to them. And for those of us with years and dollars already invested, this game does matter. Those complaints may or may not achieve anything (that's arguable)... but forcing a company to change its ways isn't the sole aim of discussion. Sometimes, the purpose is just, you know, discussion.
I think it's pretty obvious that some people are doing both. However it's equally obvious that most are only complaining while still buying either directly or through discounters. That's the part that I think has now reached a waste of time. Especially from those that claim to rage quit only to be back within a month talking about how they are going to pick up the latest XYZ release from GW. Ongoing negative discussion on any topic simply isn't healthy and there comes a time when you have to either accept reality or move on.
In this case, what is it the first thing new players see when coming to dakka? Numerous long winded negative threads about GW. I have years of time and thousands of dollars invested in The Hobby as well. Although I'm happy with my group, I'd like to see more players. How, is having constantly negative discussions about GW a positive introduction? Maybe these threads should be combined into a single "what did GW do to piss you off this week?" thread. Tucked somewhere safely away that people who want to blow some steam can do so in a nice safe out of the way place.
"Don't pretend to be encouraging discussion when you allow people to throw around the inflammatory "white knight" term at anyone who disagrees with them. Heck, moderators encourage that sort of activity when they join in the crowd of "these prices are unfair!" and criticize everyone who attempts to defend or explains GW's actions. You can argue that the price increase is insulting to their customer base, alienating, disrespectful, etc, but you can not make a logical argument for the price fluxuations as being unfair."
When almost everyone's issue is the increasingly unreasonable price hikes, and the less then quality product.
Then you go off on a tanget at insainak over some triviality.
I retracted what I said, but the point is that you are seeing something where it honestly isn't and going off on too many points and it makes you look like your just pushing negative vibes.
People are not happy. Its not just out of the blue that everyone joined the bash GW club. To try to push that point of view is not even reasonable.
Amaya wrote: Heck, moderators encourage that sort of activity when they join in the crowd of "these prices are unfair!" and criticize everyone who attempts to defend or explains GW's actions.
Mods are as entitled as anyone else to have an opinion on the discussion at hand. That doesn't excuse rude behaviour from anyone, and as always posters should report any post they see as being rude.
A good portion of the negativity directed towards GW is based on these supposedly unfair price increases.
You seem to be confusing several different issues. I don't recall seeing a lot of complaints about price rises being 'unfair'. Unpopular, or 'unjustified', certainly... but the 'fairness' is usually more down to the regional pricing than on prices being too high.
But that just brings us back to the point of the thread... If a large part of the community is unhappy about GW's pricing, then that is something that should be discussed. Discussing the issues, good and bad, surrounding this hobby is exactly what these forums are for. And while people dismiss those complaints as pointless, they do get noticed. Whether or not anything happens as a result is anybody's guess, since we don't see the reasoning that goes into GW's business decisions. But getting the problems noticed is certainly more likely to effect change than just not talking about them.
People will complain when they see a problem with something that matters to them. And for those of us with years and dollars already invested, this game does matter. Those complaints may or may not achieve anything (that's arguable)... but forcing a company to change its ways isn't the sole aim of discussion. Sometimes, the purpose is just, you know, discussion.
Don't pretend to be encouraging discussion when you allow people to throw around the inflammatory "white knight" term at anyone who disagrees with them. Heck, moderators encourage that sort of activity when they join in the crowd of "these prices are unfair!" and criticize everyone who attempts to defend or explains GW's actions. You can argue that the price increase is insulting to their customer base, alienating, disrespectful, etc, but you can not make a logical argument for the price fluxuations as being unfair.
All that happens is that a bunch of poster who either don't understand economics (or don't want to discuss it) get pissy with each other and disrupt the forums. A good portion of the negativity directed towards GW is based on these supposedly unfair price increases. That's fine if it is kept to specific threads, but moderators shouldn't allow it to spill over into what seems to be every other thread about GW.
Here is a completely valid example of pricing being unfair:
Assuming that at the current exchange rate (which is decently stable and does't fluctuate much), a Tactical Squad should be roughly equal to 23 GBP. GBP - 23.00 USD - 35.07 (roughly 35 dollars) AUD - 34.10 (roughly 34 dollars)
While I think that 37.25 is too high for a tactical squad, I'll grant them the right to consider that fairly priced. But to almost DOUBLE the price in exchange rate is insane and unfair to Australians... There is no reason that the same tactical squad that is worth 23.00 GBP is worth 62 AUD even when taking into account exchange rates.
People will complain when they see a problem with something that matters to them. And for those of us with years and dollars already invested, this game does matter. Those complaints may or may not achieve anything (that's arguable)... but forcing a company to change its ways isn't the sole aim of discussion. Sometimes, the purpose is just, you know, discussion.
Don't pretend to be encouraging discussion when you allow people to throw around the inflammatory "white knight" term at anyone who disagrees with them. Heck, moderators encourage that sort of activity when they join in the crowd of "these prices are unfair!" and criticize everyone who attempts to defend or explains GW's actions. You can argue that the price increase is insulting to their customer base, alienating, disrespectful, etc, but you can not make a logical argument for the price fluxuations as being unfair.
The consumer of a product makes a decision to purchase that product with a varying degree of information to hand. If the consumer is adding together the evidence presented and comes to the conclusion that the seller is adding too much pure margin to the product or that the product's retailing price exceeds the consumer's perceived worth of the product, then the consumer may well argue that the pricing is unfair to the consumer. If the mark up is a great deal higher than the processes and raw materials necessary to produce the product, you will find a decreasing number of consumers willing to pay for it as it passes out of the perceived worth scale of an increasing number of those consumers.
The decision to purchase or not purchase based on what's being asked vs what the consumer is willing to pay for the item is basic retail and follows a very easy logic to follow.
All that happens is that a bunch of poster who either don't understand economics (or don't want to discuss it) get pissy with each other and disrupt the forums. A good portion of the negativity directed towards GW is based on these supposedly unfair price increases. That's fine if it is kept to specific threads, but moderators shouldn't allow it to spill over into what seems to be every other thread about GW.
It seems to be a core factor in every post about GW because GW are a retailer, the majority of posts about GW will relate to the sale of a product or have a link to the sale of a product and the posters are either current, potential or lost customers of that retailer.
Seems blatantly logical to me.
Also, Dakka does not place stipulation on it's moderators to remain neutral in discussion, they remain free to post their own thoughts, just not use their modhood to punish opposing viewpoints. They are still volunteering posters with a point of view and the right to express it on dakka along with the next poster.
People will complain when they see a problem with something that matters to them. And for those of us with years and dollars already invested, this game does matter. Those complaints may or may not achieve anything (that's arguable)... but forcing a company to change its ways isn't the sole aim of discussion. Sometimes, the purpose is just, you know, discussion.
Don't pretend to be encouraging discussion when you allow people to throw around the inflammatory "white knight" term at anyone who disagrees with them. Heck, moderators encourage that sort of activity when they join in the crowd of "these prices are unfair!" and criticize everyone who attempts to defend or explains GW's actions. You can argue that the price increase is insulting to their customer base, alienating, disrespectful, etc, but you can not make a logical argument for the price fluxuations as being unfair.
All that happens is that a bunch of poster who either don't understand economics (or don't want to discuss it) get pissy with each other and disrupt the forums. A good portion of the negativity directed towards GW is based on these supposedly unfair price increases. That's fine if it is kept to specific threads, but moderators shouldn't allow it to spill over into what seems to be every other thread about GW.
Here is a completely valid example of pricing being unfair:
Assuming that at the current exchange rate (which is decently stable and does't fluctuate much), a Tactical Squad should be roughly equal to 23 GBP.
GBP - 23.00
USD - 35.07 (roughly 35 dollars)
AUD - 34.10 (roughly 34 dollars)
While I think that 37.25 is too high for a tactical squad, I'll grant them the right to consider that fairly priced. But to almost DOUBLE the price in exchange rate is insane and unfair to Australians... There is no reason that the same tactical squad that is worth 23.00 GBP is worth 62 AUD even when taking into account exchange rates.
Do Australians require the product to live? I would hope not. Do they have an inherent right to the product at the same price as everyone else? Nope.
It has very little to do with the exchange rate. You also have to consider the cost of shipping, tariffs, and the fact that GW is the sole supplier of the product and can choose to charge whatever they want.
People will complain when they see a problem with something that matters to them. And for those of us with years and dollars already invested, this game does matter. Those complaints may or may not achieve anything (that's arguable)... but forcing a company to change its ways isn't the sole aim of discussion. Sometimes, the purpose is just, you know, discussion.
Don't pretend to be encouraging discussion when you allow people to throw around the inflammatory "white knight" term at anyone who disagrees with them. Heck, moderators encourage that sort of activity when they join in the crowd of "these prices are unfair!" and criticize everyone who attempts to defend or explains GW's actions. You can argue that the price increase is insulting to their customer base, alienating, disrespectful, etc, but you can not make a logical argument for the price fluxuations as being unfair.
The consumer of a product makes a decision to purchase that product with a varying degree of information to hand. If the consumer is adding together the evidence presented and comes to the conclusion that the seller is adding too much pure margin to the product or that the product's retailing price exceeds the consumer's perceived worth of the product, then the consumer may well argue that the pricing is unfair to the consumer. If the mark up is a great deal higher than the processes and raw materials necessary to produce the product, you will find a decreasing number of consumers willing to pay for it as it passes out of the perceived worth scale of an increasing number of those consumers.
The decision to purchase or not purchase based on what's being asked vs what the consumer is willing to pay for the item is basic retail and follows a very easy logic to follow.
That's lovely, but what does any of that have to do with fairness?
Tenuously tying this back to the topic, though, a lot of people have this weird idea that you should charge a fair price for your goods and services based on their worth and a reasonable expectation of profit rather than charging whatever you think will generate the maximum possible revenue. They think you shouldn't rip people off even if, due to market factors, you have the opportunity. Perhaps that's old fashioned. It is something that engenders very negative reactions, though, and even for those of us who initially accept the prices that reaction can be triggered by the price hikes.
The problem here is who defines what's "fair"? For example, in terms of food fair can equate to a price that any reasonably employed person can pay and be able to eat three meals a day. In terms of exotic cars, fair could be defined as whatever the uber rich person will pay to drive one. I mean no one could seriously claim that ANY car is worth $1M; but there are certainly cars sold for that much or more. I think we could agree that things like food, basic clothing and basic shelter should all be reasonably affordable by unskilled workers such that they can provide for a family; and hence should be heavily watched by various governments to ensure gouging does not occur.
However, when you bring in unnecessary items, like wargaming products, then the only way to be fair is to allow the market to establish the maximum price they are willing to pay. In Canada/Australia, that price is apparently higher than for Americans or Brits.
"Ripping people off" is not really related to price and is entirely related to how a given person feels about a purchase they have made. In a previous life I sold cars for a living. In a very few cases I sold some for huge losses just to get them off the lot. I still remember one lady who bought a car from me in which we lost over $15k on the deal and she thought she had been ripped off. The car was brand new with a MSRP of $35k; I sold it for $13k simply because it had been on our lot for far too long and was costing us more money every single day it sat there. There was nothing wrong with the car, it had 15 miles on it due to a couple of demo drives. It had not been wrecked and the paint didn't have so much as a minor chip in it. Regardless, a week after buying she came to me claiming she had been ripped off. Yes, this is an extreme case, but I tell it to highlight that the terms "fair" and "ripping people off" are completely dependent upon the person using those words.
Is it fair for GW to make a product that someone might not be able to afford? Yes. Is it fair that GW raises prices to the point that you are no longer able to continue in their definition of The Hobby? Absolutely. As a matter of fact, I for one am very glad GW has risen prices. It has caused numerous other companies to spring up to offer products of similar, or in some cases higher, quality at better price points. This is a great thing for the market and everyone will ultimately benefit. If the new competition is good enough, it will certainly result in a repricing at some point. To help that along I hope that most tournaments shift to allowing, if not actively encouraging, usage of non-gw miniatures. This would be a huge boon to wargamers in general. I like this game, and I generally like the models GW releases. However, if I can buy a squad of "armored space infantry" that is of equal or better quality for a lower price point then I will happily vote with my dollars. And, just to be clear, I'm not talking about buying something recast or a blatant rip off of GWtac squads. Rather, I'd look for a new take on the whole look.
clively wrote: Complaining to the companies won't do anything as long as people are still paying those prices.
A lot of people aren't. And companies are starting to take notice.
Even less are staying with GW products, Why stay invested in something that blatantly rips you off.
All those overseas posters who make out like this embargo won't affect you, i'll be laughing when GW decides to screw you over.
The worst part of this embargo is places where GW doesn't really have a prescence, like south america. GW in it's brilliance just removed themselves from these markets.
Anyways thanks GW, i found a better game thanks to your embargo.
People will complain when they see a problem with something that matters to them. And for those of us with years and dollars already invested, this game does matter. Those complaints may or may not achieve anything (that's arguable)... but forcing a company to change its ways isn't the sole aim of discussion. Sometimes, the purpose is just, you know, discussion.
Don't pretend to be encouraging discussion when you allow people to throw around the inflammatory "white knight" term at anyone who disagrees with them. Heck, moderators encourage that sort of activity when they join in the crowd of "these prices are unfair!" and criticize everyone who attempts to defend or explains GW's actions. You can argue that the price increase is insulting to their customer base, alienating, disrespectful, etc, but you can not make a logical argument for the price fluxuations as being unfair.
All that happens is that a bunch of poster who either don't understand economics (or don't want to discuss it) get pissy with each other and disrupt the forums. A good portion of the negativity directed towards GW is based on these supposedly unfair price increases. That's fine if it is kept to specific threads, but moderators shouldn't allow it to spill over into what seems to be every other thread about GW.
Here is a completely valid example of pricing being unfair:
Assuming that at the current exchange rate (which is decently stable and does't fluctuate much), a Tactical Squad should be roughly equal to 23 GBP. GBP - 23.00 USD - 35.07 (roughly 35 dollars) AUD - 34.10 (roughly 34 dollars)
While I think that 37.25 is too high for a tactical squad, I'll grant them the right to consider that fairly priced. But to almost DOUBLE the price in exchange rate is insane and unfair to Australians... There is no reason that the same tactical squad that is worth 23.00 GBP is worth 62 AUD even when taking into account exchange rates.
Do Australians require the product to live? I would hope not. Do they have an inherent right to the product at the same price as everyone else? Nope.
It has very little to do with the exchange rate. You also have to consider the cost of shipping, tariffs, and the fact that GW is the sole supplier of the product and can choose to charge whatever they want.
The expense doesn't apply only to GW products as many posters make it out to be.
GW isn't the only company here, yes I get that, but we're not an Apple.com discussion forum, we're a wargaming forum, and no one is forcing anyone to buy these non-essential items, the problem arises in the fact that I don't see people buying more than 1 iPod Classic per person, no one needs more than 1 audi (which might still be taken care of with auto loans not sure how their car market works down under), and no one needs any thing else that you or I linked. We're all looking to spend our disposable income in different ways, that's why it's disposable. The problem arises in the fact that for the cost of a GW army, I could probably buy my family a few ipod classics. Also you have to take into account updated versions. The Australian iPod Touch black 32gb is 329.00 AUD... the same iPod is 299.00 Not that much of a difference anymore, yet Australians are paying almost double for 10 plastic space mans.
Is there price disparity between America and Australia? Yes. Is GW's price disparity a larger difference? Yes.
clively wrote: Complaining to the companies won't do anything as long as people are still paying those prices.
A lot of people aren't. And companies are starting to take notice.
Even less are staying with GW products, Why stay invested in something that blatantly rips you off.
All those overseas posters who make out like this embargo won't affect you, i'll be laughing when GW decides to screw you over.
The worst part of this embargo is places where GW doesn't really have a prescence, like south america. GW in it's brilliance just removed themselves from these markets.
Anyways thanks GW, i found a better game thanks to your embargo.
Hey my thanks to you for the well articulated and thoughtful response. You've added so much to what was becoming a dangerously intelligent , adult, and rational conversation. Thanks for knocking us down a peg.
People will complain when they see a problem with something that matters to them. And for those of us with years and dollars already invested, this game does matter. Those complaints may or may not achieve anything (that's arguable)... but forcing a company to change its ways isn't the sole aim of discussion. Sometimes, the purpose is just, you know, discussion.
Don't pretend to be encouraging discussion when you allow people to throw around the inflammatory "white knight" term at anyone who disagrees with them. Heck, moderators encourage that sort of activity when they join in the crowd of "these prices are unfair!" and criticize everyone who attempts to defend or explains GW's actions. You can argue that the price increase is insulting to their customer base, alienating, disrespectful, etc, but you can not make a logical argument for the price fluxuations as being unfair.
All that happens is that a bunch of poster who either don't understand economics (or don't want to discuss it) get pissy with each other and disrupt the forums. A good portion of the negativity directed towards GW is based on these supposedly unfair price increases. That's fine if it is kept to specific threads, but moderators shouldn't allow it to spill over into what seems to be every other thread about GW.
Here is a completely valid example of pricing being unfair:
Assuming that at the current exchange rate (which is decently stable and does't fluctuate much), a Tactical Squad should be roughly equal to 23 GBP.
GBP - 23.00
USD - 35.07 (roughly 35 dollars)
AUD - 34.10 (roughly 34 dollars)
While I think that 37.25 is too high for a tactical squad, I'll grant them the right to consider that fairly priced. But to almost DOUBLE the price in exchange rate is insane and unfair to Australians... There is no reason that the same tactical squad that is worth 23.00 GBP is worth 62 AUD even when taking into account exchange rates.
Do Australians require the product to live? I would hope not. Do they have an inherent right to the product at the same price as everyone else? Nope.
It has very little to do with the exchange rate. You also have to consider the cost of shipping, tariffs, and the fact that GW is the sole supplier of the product and can choose to charge whatever they want.
The expense doesn't apply only to GW products as many posters make it out to be.
GW isn't the only company here, yes I get that, but we're not an Apple.com discussion forum, we're a wargaming forum, and no one is forcing anyone to buy these non-essential items, the problem arises in the fact that I don't see people buying more than 1 iPod Classic per person, no one needs more than 1 audi (which might still be taken care of with auto loans not sure how their car market works down under), and no one needs any thing else that you or I linked. We're all looking to spend our disposable income in different ways, that's why it's disposable. The problem arises in the fact that for the cost of a GW army, I could probably buy my family a few ipod classics. Also you have to take into account updated versions. The Australian iPod Touch black 32gb is 329.00 AUD... the same iPod is 299.00 Not that much of a difference anymore, yet Australians are paying almost double for 10 plastic space mans.
I have three iPods/iPhones that all get used for different purposes. Speak for yourself ;-).
insaniak wrote: But that just brings us back to the point of the thread... If a large part of the community is unhappy about GW's pricing, then that is something that should be discussed. Discussing the issues, good and bad, surrounding this hobby is exactly what these forums are for. And while people dismiss those complaints as pointless, they do get noticed. Whether or not anything happens as a result is anybody's guess, since we don't see the reasoning that goes into GW's business decisions. But getting the problems noticed is certainly more likely to effect change than just not talking about them.
I agree. Even if they don't get noticed by GW directly, they get noticed by gamers and the more gamers notice, the better. I've almost completely stopped buying GW products in Oz and greatly reduced my GW spending as well (despite the flag next to my name I'm Australian). It's easier said than done to just stop buying completely because it's a hobby I'm heavily invested in and to stop purchasing it and sell my armies would be flushing both a lot of money AND a lot of time down the toilet.
Discussion which is negative to GW is as legitimate as any other discussion. If it is off topic for the thread, then yeah, it's not good, but honestly for the most part on Dakka it's not that bad at all. Some forums I frequent you can't even mention certain products and topics without putting on a flame suit for all the off topic hateful responses you'll get. Informative and thought out negativity, even if it's being repeated for the millionth time, is not a bad thing IMO, and that's what most of it is, it's just some people can't read negativity without also thinking it's "hate" opposed to "discussion".
I think if you want to improve the quality of "discussion", banning the terms "white knight" and "GW hater" and banning dismissive posts would go a long way They tend to be what lowers the tone of discussion to be more aggressive, more negative and less constructive.
Kung Fu Hamster wrote: it's practically impossible to have a 40K-related discussion (or any topic that even tangenitally touches on GW) without trolls, whiners, and the overall dregs of the community taking the conversation over and turning it into a GW bash-fest with almost no effort.
Your not going to get very far when you start out calling anyone who doesnt like GW "the overall dregs of the community".
As a matter of fact, it serves to lump you into the group you are attempting to disparage.
If I played more armies than just Warriors of Chaos (and I would like to get back into 
Quick get this man some help! You live in Ohio! Steak n' Shake man, Steak n' Shake! You have Five Guys also. There are too few meals to consume in our lifetime to be wasted on McDonalds.
