I'm not sure if this has been done already, and if so point to the right direction please. But does the new codex make daemons better or meh or booooo!

competitive, most certainly.

A better word for it would be balanced. Hyper units have been toned down (i.e. screamers/flamers), plaguebearers are not the default troop choice, the gods have been rounded out.


Daemons feel interesting and unique. Phil Kelly did a pretty damn good job, imo.

If by "interesting and unique" you mean "completely different every time you play because EVERYTHING IN THE BOOK is generated by random dice table!".

Yeah, I'm going to be using Rewards as 'take an AP2 weapon: 10pts, take a S+1 AP2 weapon: 20pts.' Though occasionally there is something useful from the deity-specific weapon or table depending on opponent, I suppose.

Because of that, I feel like the codex has a rather high skill ceiling and isn't going to reward hitting that ceiling proportionally well. From the start you have to build around the randomness and it can still screw you or fail to provide useful options. Tzeentch in general exacerbates this badly with Warpflame and horrors becoming psykers. Baking this level of unreliability for an army in an already unreliable system is removing a little too much control from the player, I think.

I can see the random element causing some upset amongst players, I cannot believe that GW keep thinking that the randomness is actually fun.......I dislike they 40k system the more random elements are introduced.

I effectively abandoned CSM because of some of the daftness associated with the dec - i.e. must challenge etc, I can see some Demon players getting ready for the pack up as well.

Last decent codex imo was Necrons, Chaos Marine fail with only a average showing from DA and Demons...others see it differently and thats cool, I just don't like the way the game is going......

The newcron cheese fest was the last decent codex? I humbly disagree old chap, necrons, space wolves, grey knights, these all showed us what was wrong with 40k, all these new books are balanced with each other, no spam units on the scale of crons or knights... I am very happy gw is moving in the right direction.

The da codex oozes character

If thats your position then it's cool......I disagree but then thats just an opinion and is off topic here.

As for the new demons I don't think its amazing but it does seem fairly neutral in its power distribution......I just think the random element is not that great and may disappoint some demon regulars.

Lovepug13 wrote:
I can see the random element causing some upset amongst players, I cannot believe that GW keep thinking that the randomness is actually fun.......I dislike they 40k system the more random elements are introduced.

I'm one of those players that enjoy random events and effects

I love the hard feelings about DoC not getting an overpowered codex

The Necron codex is fine except for the flyers - and I don't really blame 'em for it as I'm sure they were forced to make them too strong due to the new flyer rules / models.

 Gargantuan wrote:

Lovepug13 wrote:
I can see the random element causing some upset amongst players, I cannot believe that GW keep thinking that the randomness is actually fun.......I dislike they 40k system the more random elements are introduced.

I'm one of those players that enjoy random events and effects

Then GW is fulfilling your requirements

I personally don't like them but lets see what the bulk of the demon players think.....A few guys I know who are demon players are not entirely happy but that is within my gaming circle and they were running some fairly filthy lists - i.e. tallyman and nurgle marines or Fateweaver and spam etc...

I've read most of the book now and I'd say it's very competitive.

Greater Daemons are very nasty and seem to be costed fairly, I wouldn't want to face one. The random charts look fun, excluding the exalted gifts, I'd say the vast majority of results are really good things to have (wish I could say the same for fantasy).

Also since you can buy multiple rolls there's a good chance of getting what you want.

Great Unclean One is my favourite, imagine him with 4+ FNP and reroll ward saves (you'd need some lucky rolls but there's a good chance you'll get one of the two). Even if you don't get either of those there are some good ones like +1 wound.

I predict that 2 x greater and 1 lesser gift will be the go-to buy for Greater Daemons.

You can always swap out a result for an AP2 weapon that strikes at initiative. This alone gives the codex a huge competitive edge I think. Even unit champions can get one and they are very cheap.

The amount of AP2 striking at initiative is scary good Daemonettes striking at i5 with a herald will be putting out a crap ton of AP2 hits before the enemy even gets to hit back, not to mention the rest of the unit has rending.

I guess they have balanced it by making all daemons glass cannons, what with all troops (bar plaguebearers) being T3. But I'd say they are all costed well points-wise.

Some units are a waste of time like flamers and stuff that got nerfed hard, but meh, solid troop choices and excellent HQ, definitely worth buying this book if you're into 40k daemons.

The book has been out like 8 hours ( depending on where you are ).

I'm pretty sure NO ONE KNOWS. They won't know until a bunch of games have been played.

The Random tables, really are not that bad. The Gifts are all pretty good, AND you get a Primaris.

Troops are much cheaper now, and can be taken in Hordes.

Units like Flamers and Screamers, still pack quite a punch.

You can play the Psychic game like no other army.

I think Daemons probably have the ability to customize their army, more so than anyone else. With 4 Heralds per HQ slot, and the amount of stuff you can do to customize them, leaves a massive amount of options available.

 lordofthegophers wrote:

Some units are a waste of time like flamers and stuff that got nerfed hard, but meh, solid troop choices and excellent HQ, definitely worth buying this book if you're into 40k daemons.

I don't think Flamers are that bad TBH; they still put out a metric crapton of hits when flaming. They're just not the bane of everything anymore.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 lordofthegophers wrote:

Some units are a waste of time like flamers and stuff that got nerfed hard, but meh, solid troop choices and excellent HQ, definitely worth buying this book if you're into 40k daemons.

I don't think Flamers are that bad TBH; they still put out a metric crapton of hits when flaming. They're just not the bane of everything anymore.

Flamers will cause a boatload of wounds. and still are fantastic for overwatch.

I can see opponents getting frustrated with Soul Grinders of Nurgle behind an aegis. 2+ cover save anyone?

 lordofthegophers wrote:
I can see opponents getting frustrated with Soul Grinders of Nurgle behind an aegis. 2+ cover save anyone?

Won't cover enough of the Soulgrinder, sadly.

 Sasori wrote:

 lordofthegophers wrote:
I can see opponents getting frustrated with Soul Grinders of Nurgle behind an aegis. 2+ cover save anyone?

Won't cover enough of the Soulgrinder, sadly.

Really? That sucks, I don't own the model so I'm not sure how big the thing is, but yeah looking at it now you're probably right. Still, if you can get it behind something...

 lordofthegophers wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

 lordofthegophers wrote:
I can see opponents getting frustrated with Soul Grinders of Nurgle behind an aegis. 2+ cover save anyone?

Won't cover enough of the Soulgrinder, sadly.

Really? That sucks, I don't own the model so I'm not sure how big the thing is, but yeah looking at it now you're probably right. Still, if you can get it behind something...

You need to see the model

It's good, but it's hard to cope now without buying a lot more troops models.

Some model's are also disgustingly costly point's wise. 52 point's for a beast of nurgle, yeah it got better, but it's nowhere near as good as say, 2 assault terminator's. Especially with no AP whatsoever, can't take a herald, and only a 5+ save.

I put all my Daemons on round bases and use custom movement trays so I can use them in Fantasy too.

Annoyingly all the good units in 40k seem to be useless in Fantasy, and vice versa

Apart from Plaguebearers, they seem fairly solid in both.

Evileyes wrote:
It's good, but it's hard to cope now without buying a lot more troops models.

Some model's are also disgustingly costly point's wise. 52 point's for a beast of nurgle, yeah it got better, but it's nowhere near as good as say, 2 assault terminator's. Especially with no AP whatsoever, can't take a herald, and only a 5+ save.

Hence why 2 Assault Terminators cost 80 points (at least). What's your point?

Do they really? I thought they were only 25 point's each.

My bad, not played imperium in a long time it seem's xD

This makes me slightly happier

New CD book?

Anything but tzeentch is competitive, well anything without flamers and screamers that nerf bat hit a home run and I cheered.

Honestly, I got the book today and...I'm finding it really really hard to build a worthwhile army, without focusing on troops.

Everything get's very expencive, very quickly, to the point where I have less models than a grey knight army, but nothing but 5+ saves across the whole army. It just feels like, even with everything I can give them, nothing takes away the fact that everything only has a 5+ save. IF you get very lucky, you might get the 3+ armour buff, but that's random and unreliable, and you have to spend a ton of point's just to have the hope of getting it.

I feel like even with a ton of nurgle stuff, i'm not going to be resilient enough to get to the other side of the board.

Also, if I play it hordey, I have the issue of being neither able to shoot with most of my troops, or move quickly with most of my troops, unless I take daemonettes.

 juraigamer wrote:
New CD book?

Anything but tzeentch is competitive, well anything without flamers and screamers that nerf bat hit a home run and I cheered.

Screamers are still very good.

Flamers are still good.

They're just not super OP anymore.

 Sasori wrote:

 juraigamer wrote:
New CD book?

Anything but tzeentch is competitive, well anything without flamers and screamers that nerf bat hit a home run and I cheered.

Screamers are still very good.

Flamers are still good.

They're just not super OP anymore.

Well, I have to admit, flamers are a bit...well, I think they over-nerfed them a bit, with the whole giving the enemy feel no pain thing.

But Screamers have been made purely tankhunter's again (Though they can slashing attack as they get to tanks, which is handy), and that's a good thing in my eyes. Those thing's shouldn't be winning combat unless it's against a tank, and it's not almost 100% guaranteed they will mince the tank anymore.

Evileyes wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

 juraigamer wrote:
New CD book?

Anything but tzeentch is competitive, well anything without flamers and screamers that nerf bat hit a home run and I cheered.

Screamers are still very good.

Flamers are still good.

They're just not super OP anymore.

Well, I have to admit, flamers are a bit...well, I think they over-nerfed them a bit, with the whole giving the enemy feel no pain thing.

But Screamers have been made purely tankhunter's again (Though they can slashing attack as they get to tanks, which is handy), and that's a good thing in my eyes. Those thing's shouldn't be winning combat unless it's against a tank, and it's not almost 100% guaranteed they will mince the tank anymore.

Flamers should be able to at least get 3-4 models under a template. If you have a large enough squad, they should be able to easily obilitrate most squads, just by the sheer amount of wounds they will cause. They still are 2W Jump infantry, for fairly cheap. You still don't want to charge these suckers.

Screamers do get 4 Attacks on the charge, so they can cause a fair amount casualties on the squad they charge, and unless they charge something with a lot of Strength 8 to ID them, with 2W each it's not likely you're going to lose the combat. You can then use their Lamprey Bite to wipe them out in their turn, to avoid getting shot. They can also hunt Tanks as well.

Just as a side not, does tzeentch have access to divination?

 Sasori wrote:

Evileyes wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

 juraigamer wrote:
New CD book?

Anything but tzeentch is competitive, well anything without flamers and screamers that nerf bat hit a home run and I cheered.

Screamers are still very good.

Flamers are still good.

They're just not super OP anymore.

Well, I have to admit, flamers are a bit...well, I think they over-nerfed them a bit, with the whole giving the enemy feel no pain thing.

But Screamers have been made purely tankhunter's again (Though they can slashing attack as they get to tanks, which is handy), and that's a good thing in my eyes. Those thing's shouldn't be winning combat unless it's against a tank, and it's not almost 100% guaranteed they will mince the tank anymore.

Flamers should be able to at least get 3-4 models under a template. If you have a large enough squad, they should be able to easily obilitrate most squads, just by the sheer amount of wounds they will cause. They still are 2W Jump infantry, for fairly cheap. You still don't want to charge these suckers.

Screamers do get 4 Attacks on the charge, so they can cause a fair amount casualties on the squad they charge, and unless they charge something with a lot of Strength 8 to ID them, with 2W each it's not likely you're going to lose the combat. You can then use their Lamprey Bite to wipe them out in their turn, to avoid getting shot. They can also hunt Tanks as well.

Oh don't get me wrong, I don't think they are neccararilly bad. Just, they are one of a few good options, and I likely wouldn't pick them over the other choices now.

 Ozomoto wrote:
Just as a side not, does tzeentch have access to divination?

Lords of Change and Heralds of Tzeentch ONLY have Divination and Change to generate from.

Im going with no, too random, your tactics mean nothing if it goes stupid on you, the entire point of list building is to lower the reliance on luck.

Im sure something will pop up thats not half bad.

Oh it can be pretty competitive if done right. Plus they can be a pretty fun allied attachment. I love the idea of the portal, it can give you 1 D 6 standard units in a turn. Though the problem is... It can scatter really far.

quick question about the new codex;

1. Is skulltaker terribly different than he was before
2. are bloodletter terribly different than they were before

I feel no compultion to shell out 50 USD for entries for 2 units. If they pretty much got a small tweak to their rules, but otherwise stayed the same, spectacular. If they are soooooo different that I'll have to at least get a hold of the new book to "memorize" them, so be it.

Furyou Miko wrote:If by "interesting and unique" you mean "completely different every time you play because EVERYTHING IN THE BOOK is generated by random dice table!".

People complaining about RNG in a game built around extremely random dice rolls?

 StarHunter25 wrote:
quick question about the new codex;

1. Is skulltaker terribly different than he was before
2. are bloodletter terribly different than they were before

I feel no compultion to shell out 50 USD for entries for 2 units. If they pretty much got a small tweak to their rules, but otherwise stayed the same, spectacular. If they are soooooo different that I'll have to at least get a hold of the new book to "memorize" them, so be it.

Vastly different for both. Bloodletters are strength 4, toughness 3. and much much cheaper points wise. And herald's can give them big squadwide buff's like hatred and such.

Skulltaker is a little cheaper, a little weaker, (Not much, admittedly) And has to give challenges. TO be honest, he is pretty much the same, only he can't take a chariot. His attacks are only ap3, but they are instant death and soulblaze.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
If by "interesting and unique" you mean "completely different every time you play because EVERYTHING IN THE BOOK is generated by random dice table!".

We are the only players, who can have an army no-one can entirely tailor to face. Because every time you play this army, it will be different, even if you bring the exact same stuff.

If you are an adaptable player, you can use this unpredictability, to your advantage.

New book is fantastic.

The randomness is relatively inconsequential; most of the results are good. It's lot like "roll a 4+ whenever you move or your family dies." It's just like a bunch of boon tables.

Costing is much better, and will make Daemons less of a "One Trick Pony" book, as well as forcing them to start on the board makes the dex seem like it will play much less erratically.

Daemonic Instability seems interesting. I like the sound of it, hopefully it works fairly.

Skarbrand sounds amazing now, though.

-TheCaptain

So they didnt pull a C:CSM copypasta deal with daemons then. might actually head down to the FLGS for a looksee.

PS: are skullcrushers finally cavalry? I love those models and really want to throw them in with my daemon allies

How much has Epidemius changed? Thanks

Gork and Mork wrote:
How much has Epidemius changed? Thanks

Only affects units within 6 and different effects.

Important Question: Are you required to take god-specific powers like the csm dex? Or can I roll 3x on rule book powers for a lvl 3 Herald or Greater Daemon?

I'm so happy that the flamers of yours are now ap4, say 'ello to mah little mega nobz!

IMO, if you're playing with the warp and don't expect utter randomness, you're doing it wrong..
I like the idea of the randomness, because no matter what I put on the table, my opponent is going to have no idea what's going on with my army.

However, that said, I haven't yet read the new daemons codex, and am just basing this statement from other people's postings on the interwebs...

Budzerker wrote:
Important Question: Are you required to take god-specific powers like the csm dex? Or can I roll 3x on rule book powers for a lvl 3 Herald or Greater Daemon?

Each god get a choice between using their god's powers, one book power per god, or a mix of either. You don't have to take god powers, if you don't want to, except on named daemons.

My Great unclean one, for instance, is taking 2 biomancy powers, and one nurgle power. I could have had 3 biomancy, or 3 nurgle if I wanted though.

Awesome. 3x Biomancy looks pretty hot on a GUO. Maybe Heralds too.

Final word, the new demon books are good or bad? People will rant again it because is not competitive or is the perfect balance book for now.

I'm taking one nurgle power, purely because it gives him a shooting attack, either the poisoned large blast, or the primaris poisoned flamer

hellpato wrote:
Final word, the new demon books are good or bad? People will rant again it because is not competitive or is the perfect balance book for now.

To early to tell for sure. It needs tabletop time. However, iniial impressions to me, seem to be that it is inline with the 3 other 6th ED books we've gotten, with the ability to compete well. Daemons as an Army, are better off, just with no glaring super OP choices like the old Screamers and Flamers.

 Sasori wrote:

hellpato wrote:
Final word, the new demon books are good or bad? People will rant again it because is not competitive or is the perfect balance book for now.

To early to tell for sure. It needs tabletop time. However, iniial impressions to me, seem to be that it is inline with the 3 other 6th ED books we've gotten, with the ability to compete well. Daemons as an Army, are better off, just with no glaring super OP choices like the old Screamers and Flamers.

I think it is more like the DA codex. The strong stuff in the CSM was pretty straightforward (PMs, Baledrakes), while with DA it was better hidden (like, you would think that there is none, then you discover the Rad Grenade Launcher). Same goes with the DC: at first look, nothing interesting; at second, 19D6 S9 AP4 TL shots from a single unit...

Otherwise, I like this codex. It has a character, and the stuff in it is mostly alright.

 Ravenous D wrote:
Im going with no, too random, your tactics mean nothing if it goes stupid on you, the entire point of list building is to lower the reliance on luck.

Im sure something will pop up thats not half bad.

Sure...

Because there's absolutely nothing competitive about a Herald of Slaanesh w/Greater Etherblade + Lesser roll + Steed + Exalted Locus of Beguilement leading a squad of Fiends/Seekers.
I mean, she only makes every single non-3++ character or Shadowfield Archon weep. God forbid she actually gets the Cleaving Blow roll for her lesser gift! Oh dear, now every 6 to-hit she rolls is S9! (and of corse, w/re-roll all missed to-hit rolls she'll NEVER roll 6's...)
And of corse, a unit with rending re-rolling missed to-hit rolls will just bounce off of 2+ saves every single time...

Yep, useless codex is useless... (aparently)

That's it folks, the intertubes have spoken! Time to sell our armies and go play Longwang spam or a Flying french Bakery!

The point of the random is, it's random for both players. If you are adaptable, you can use what you are given, to your advantage. If not, you will just whine you didn't get the one option you wanted, then lose.

There are very few random thing's, that can't be used, in this book. And on those where you can get a bad random, you can take a "Primaris" style choice to nullify it into something reasonably good.

 AtoMaki wrote:
Same goes with the DC: at first look, nothing interesting; at second, 19D6 S9 AP4 TL shots from a single unit

Ummm... what unit would that be?

from the new codex what are good choices to compliment your basic black legion CSM army?

Budzerker wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:
Same goes with the DC: at first look, nothing interesting; at second, 19D6 S9 AP4 TL shots from a single unit

Ummm... what unit would that be?

Dinker's of Malal


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pwn'd You wrote:
from the new codex what are good choices to compliment your basic black legion CSM army?

A greater daemon. They are all fantastic, plus, it's your ally HQ.

Other than that, take troops of your preferred flavour, for some cheap, sort of fearless scoring

Budzerker wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:
Same goes with the DC: at first look, nothing interesting; at second, 19D6 S9 AP4 TL shots from a single unit

Ummm... what unit would that be?

Nothing, because Loci don't stack like that.

I was wondering, is it possible for a herald to join a unit of beasts? Wanted to slap a herald into a beasts of nurgle unit, and just move it slowly once he is in it, but is that possible, read the rulebook, and it doesn't seem to indicate it had to be infantry, or the same type, to join a unit.

Herald of nurgle, giving beasts of nurgle feel no pain, or 2+ poison, would be amazing.

You could almost say the level of randomness in this codex is almost chaotic

Eldercaveman wrote:
You could almost say the level of randomness in this codex is almost chaotic

That's crazy talk...

Hmm. Do CSM Daemonic units with a MoN count as Daemons of Nurgle for Epidemius?

One question I had after playing it was, does the warp storm, that causes the lightning thing(?) (a bit like Storm lords lightning) does it effect Flyers/FMC's. Or is this going to be another one of those things that needs an FAQ, and untill then we can expect a infinite amount of merry-go round arguments in YMDC?

Are the burning chariots really as horribad as they seem? They can't fire any of their guns when they move or deepstrike despite being a fast chariot seems extremely contradictory to me.

magicafiend wrote:
Are the burning chariots really as horribad as they seem? They can't fire any of their guns when they move or deepstrike despite being a fast chariot seems extremely contradictory to me.

What stops them firing when they deepstrike?

 StarHunter25 wrote:
So they didnt pull a C:CSM copypasta deal with daemons then. might actually head down to the FLGS for a looksee.

PS: are skullcrushers finally cavalry? I love those models and really want to throw them in with my daemon allies

Yeah but they lost the 3+ armour, and are now t4.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
Im going with no, too random, your tactics mean nothing if it goes stupid on you, the entire point of list building is to lower the reliance on luck.

Im sure something will pop up thats not half bad.

Sure...

Because there's absolutely nothing competitive about a Herald of Slaanesh w/Greater Etherblade + Lesser roll + Steed + Exalted Locus of Beguilement leading a squad of Fiends/Seekers.
I mean, she only makes every single non-3++ character or Shadowfield Archon weep. God forbid she actually gets the Cleaving Blow roll for her lesser gift! Oh dear, now every 6 to-hit she rolls is S9! (and of corse, w/re-roll all missed to-hit rolls she'll NEVER roll 6's...)
And of corse, a unit with rending re-rolling missed to-hit rolls will just bounce off of 2+ saves every single time...

Yep, useless codex is useless... (aparently)

That's it folks, the intertubes have spoken! Time to sell our armies and go play Longwang spam or a Flying french Bakery!

Necron flier armies are house, so that shows what you know. And I said I didnt think they were competitve (meaning high teir gaming) and you go looney tunes, switch to decaf, jesus.

Eldercaveman wrote:

magicafiend wrote:
Are the burning chariots really as horribad as they seem? They can't fire any of their guns when they move or deepstrike despite being a fast chariot seems extremely contradictory to me.

What stops them firing when they deepstrike?

Because while the chariot is fast, the chariot isn't shooting. The Exalted Flamer riding it is shooting. And because a Deep Striking vehicle counts as cruising, the passenger can only fire Snap Shots. One gift is a Heavy weapon, the other is a Template, so the Burning Chariot is *hilariously* bad to the point where I can't tell which author designed it.

 Ravenous D wrote:

 StarHunter25 wrote:
So they didnt pull a C:CSM copypasta deal with daemons then. might actually head down to the FLGS for a looksee.

PS: are skullcrushers finally cavalry? I love those models and really want to throw them in with my daemon allies

Yeah but they lost the 3+ armour, and are now t4.

IMO Bloodcrushers are unusably bad. Losing the 3+ save and a point of toughness was too much, even when you figure that they became Cavalry. If you compare them to Seekers, they really look bad.

Bloodcrushers:
45 points buys you one 3 wound T4 model with a 5++, 3 AP3 (4 on the charge) attacks at I4

Seekers:
48 points buys you four 1 wound T3 models with a 5++, 12 rending (16 on the charge) attacks (total) at i5.

The Seekers may be only T3, but could make up for it with more wounds per point spend, and will generally hit first, leaving fewer models to strike back. You can equip them with a banner that lowers the enemy's WS for even fewer incoming wounds.

Crushers just aren't worth their points anymore. Which is sad because I love the model.

 GreyHamster wrote:

Eldercaveman wrote:

magicafiend wrote:
Are the burning chariots really as horribad as they seem? They can't fire any of their guns when they move or deepstrike despite being a fast chariot seems extremely contradictory to me.

What stops them firing when they deepstrike?

Because while the chariot is fast, the chariot isn't shooting. The Exalted Flamer riding it is shooting. And because a Deep Striking vehicle counts as cruising, the passenger can only fire Snap Shots. One gift is a Heavy weapon, the other is a Template, so the Burning Chariot is *hilariously* bad to the point where I can't tell which author designed it.

Ah OK, so that was played wrong against me then, I said that it probably could fire, since it's cruising speed, and you can fire one weapon at full BS and the rest as snap shots, not realising that it is the passenger that fires. Yeah that is pretty bad

Eldercaveman wrote:
One question I had after playing it was, does the warp storm, that causes the lightning thing(?) (a bit like Storm lords lightning) does it effect Flyers/FMC's. Or is this going to be another one of those things that needs an FAQ, and untill then we can expect a infinite amount of merry-go round arguments in YMDC?

I don't think it would affect Flyers/FMC's. They're auto hits. They're not snap shots, etc.

 undertow wrote:

Eldercaveman wrote:
One question I had after playing it was, does the warp storm, that causes the lightning thing(?) (a bit like Storm lords lightning) does it effect Flyers/FMC's. Or is this going to be another one of those things that needs an FAQ, and untill then we can expect a infinite amount of merry-go round arguments in YMDC?

I don't think it would affect Flyers/FMC's. They're auto hits. They're not snap shots, etc.

This was my thinking, but the game was over VASSAL so I didn't have the energy, nor a copy of the codex, to get into a proper discussion about it. I'd be interested to see the actual wording of the rule.

Another question, can I put heralds in my chaos space marine units now or are they only able to join units from their own codex. (what about daemons the CSM codex?)?

what happens if slany units drop my I by 5 and I have less then i6base , it doesnt say it reduces the I to minimum of 1 and unit that has a 0 in a stat cant use it ?

So i'm just theorying to myself...20 pink horror's, with a herald. Herald takes 3 mastery levels, and the locus that makes psychic power's stronger for him/her/itself, and its unit. It also takes prescience.

Both the squad, and the herald, then take the tzeentch primaris power. If they get their psychic powers off (On a leadership of 10 for being tzeentch) they get 4d6 shot's with prescience, and 3d6 shot's with ballistic skill 4. This averages about 21, strength 6 shot's. And can go up to 42 strength 6 shot's.

All this, for a fairly cheap unit with a herald, that is scoring. 24 inch range.

Damnnnnnnn, that's good. I'd take 4 squad's of just that, they could blast away pretty much everything, give army-wide good deny the witch, have a ton of models to chew through, tons of scoring, and utterly monstrous amount's of firepower

Not to mention it even works against terminator's with 2 toughness test's on any unit that get's wounded, and any failed toughness test, result's in d3 terminator's going boom. Yeah, you might give them feel no pain 6+, but you are shooting enough that it's worth the risk of giving them an ork tshirt save of a feel no pain

Hell, the herald on it's own could camp out somewhere safe, like behind an aegis, and get 4d6 shot's at strength 6, for only slightly more than a space marine captain in points cost.

And you can have 4
Damn, I like this

And then someone Denies the Witch and makes you sad.

 GreyHamster wrote:
And then someone Denies the Witch and makes you sad.

On a 6+, yeah. I'd say that's a risk you have to take, I diddn't say this is awesome and there is absolutely no drawbacks.

Besides, it's one group of 3d6, and one group of 4d6, so it's unlikely they will deny both, even if they have a psyker in their squad.

Since both the squad and the herald, are mastery level 3 :p

Can we not wait a few weeks before making judgement calls on how strong it will be?

Personally I think it will be same level as the other 6th edition codexs, which is a good thing

 Ozomoto wrote:
Another question, can I put heralds in my chaos space marine units now or are they only able to join units from their own codex. (what about daemons the CSM codex?)?

CD segregates its units and characters from those of other codices on P26.

I don't think, say, a Herald of Nurgle could join a Nurgle-aligned CSM unit with the Daemon rule. The Instability rule on this page is a bit vague and needs FAQing.

 tuiman wrote:
Can we not wait a few weeks before making judgement calls on how strong it will be?

Personally I think it will be same level as the other 6th edition codexs, which is a good thing

Don't ever suggest anything so stupid on Dakka again! Don't you know that the internet must decide if the sky is falling the day of the codex release!

Pink Horror Squads are never ML3. Brotherhood of Sorcerers specifies ML1, and their generation of additional Warp Charge does not override this.

Against *any* psyker target or target near a hood, the 'both go through Deny' result is less probable than 'at least one attempt is Denied'. Against even a non-psyker, there's close to a 1/3 chance that at least one gets denied. Added to the psychic test, the unreliability gets rather high. Given that this is a 300 point unit, it's not particularly impressive.

Certainly there are some things to worry about with Horrors now. All the things that can go wrong, the question is, what is in place to counter balance all that risk?

 GreyHamster wrote:
Pink Horror Squads are never ML3. Brotherhood of Sorcerers specifies ML1, and their generation of additional Warp Charge does not override this.

Against *any* psyker target or target near a hood, the 'both go through Deny' result is less probable than 'at least one attempt is Denied'. Against even a non-psyker, there's close to a 1/3 chance that at least one gets denied. Added to the psychic test, the unreliability gets rather high. Given that this is a 300 point unit, it's not particularly impressive.

I'd call the odd's pretty good myself, but there you go. or else, why would anyone ever run psychic choirs?

Makumba wrote:
what happens if slany units drop my I by 5 and I have less then i6base , it doesnt say it reduces the I to minimum of 1 and unit that has a 0 in a stat cant use it ?

0 stat only applies to WS (can't strike and is auto hit) and STW (you die). I can't find anything that says stats can't be pushed into minus figures; unless that gets FAQ'd or I missed something, Guardsmen will go I-2 and strike after power fists.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What about several PH blobs, with perhaps some Beasts of Nurgle to help deal with problems inherent to big shooty units that are utterlyrubbish in melee? Sure, one PH blob will often have everything denied, but with stuff like this I wanna take several to ensure decent WPT.

Evileyes wrote:

 GreyHamster wrote:
Pink Horror Squads are never ML3. Brotherhood of Sorcerers specifies ML1, and their generation of additional Warp Charge does not override this.

Against *any* psyker target or target near a hood, the 'both go through Deny' result is less probable than 'at least one attempt is Denied'. Against even a non-psyker, there's close to a 1/3 chance that at least one gets denied. Added to the psychic test, the unreliability gets rather high. Given that this is a 300 point unit, it's not particularly impressive.

I'd call the odd's pretty good myself, but there you go. or else, why would anyone ever run psychic choirs?

Psyker Battle Squads function well because Weaken Resolve does not require you to hit or 'wound' the way a witchfire does. Pass the test and fail the Deny, and it works, no other rolls involved. Their PSA is also capable of becoming a high S blast with low AP, which is worth the risk. Witchfires need to be substantially better than normal shooting attacks to be worthwhile. Flickering Fire spam has three points of failure in addition to needing to hit and wound as normal, the psychic test, the Deny, and the shot count The first two, for a herald+squad, have less than a 60% chance of having both work against a 6+ Deny. Adding in the shot count variance, you're looking at sub-50% effectiveness of just a normal shooting attack with similar profile. Shoot at anything near a Librarian or actually a psyker itself, chances drop even further. There's a small chance of getting a wonderful result where you take nearly forty shots at them, but it's so much less than the chance of getting literally nothing. In a sense it's actually very fluffy, Tzeentch dangling hope out before yanking it away.

I'm actually quite liking the Beam option though. since you can draw the line from any horror, it should be possible to line up 3 or more models with considerable frequency.

Wouldn't take much to chip away at the PH unit and take off one of them FF dice, either. Big blob of T3 isn't hard to hurt.

 lindsay40k wrote:
Wouldn't take much to chip away at the PH unit and take off one of them FF dice, either. Big blob of T3 isn't hard to hurt.

Is if you have 80 horror's on the table ;P

What do people think of the various chariots? And Plague Drones?

Lovepug13 wrote:

 lordofthegophers wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

 lordofthegophers wrote:
I can see opponents getting frustrated with Soul Grinders of Nurgle behind an aegis. 2+ cover save anyone?

Won't cover enough of the Soulgrinder, sadly.

Really? That sucks, I don't own the model so I'm not sure how big the thing is, but yeah looking at it now you're probably right. Still, if you can get it behind something...

You need to see the model

We just checked at our local GW. The aegis defense line does cover 25% of the model and therefore gives the soulgrinder a +2 cover save.

SO AWESOME!

 GreyHamster wrote:

Psyker Battle Squads function well because Weaken Resolve does not require you to hit or 'wound' the way a witchfire does. Pass the test and fail the Deny, and it works, no other rolls involved. Their PSA is also capable of becoming a high S blast with low AP, which is worth the risk. Witchfires need to be substantially better than normal shooting attacks to be worthwhile. Flickering Fire spam has three points of failure in addition to needing to hit and wound as normal, the psychic test, the Deny, and the shot count The first two, for a herald+squad, have less than a 60% chance of having both work against a 6+ Deny. Adding in the shot count variance, you're looking at sub-50% effectiveness of just a normal shooting attack with similar profile. Shoot at anything near a Librarian or actually a psyker itself, chances drop even further. There's a small chance of getting a wonderful result where you take nearly forty shots at them, but it's so much less than the chance of getting literally nothing. In a sense it's actually very fluffy, Tzeentch dangling hope out before yanking it away.

I'm actually quite liking the Beam option though. since you can draw the line from any horror, it should be possible to line up 3 or more models with considerable frequency.

So?
Outside of horribad dice, how many Ld10 psychic tests do you normally fail in a single game?
Take Prescience on the Herald to give re-rolls to-hit.
Also, why are you aiming at/near the Librarian/Psyker's unit? Shoot something that's not protected by that offending Libby/psyker and send your Flamers/Screamers/Fiends/Seekers/whatever to rush in and chomp down on the unit/model that can help buff those Deny the Witch rolls. (Slaaneshii Heralds makes rediculously effective character assassins btw)

Flickering Fire in a large unit is just too tempting to pass on - especially with the exalted locus bonus since S6 means you wound most things on 2's. (that's alot of saves!)
Besides, Infernal Gateway is imposible for the unit to use once it drops to 10 models or less, while the Beam is only good for (maybe) sniping a tank or else giving opponents more Warpflame rolls to pass!

The only time Tzeentch psychic's really get nerfed are;
a) Eldar and their Runes of awsomesauce (so kill a dude to remove - good thing Slaaneshii units are beyond fast!)
b) SW Rune Priest spam (probably the hardest to combat since those deny bubbles are huge and there can be upto 4 of 'em)
c) Grey Knights (Ha! Like Daemons aren't royally fethed already!)

Against everyone else, your opponent needs to get unreasonably lucky to deny a decent amount of your psychic shooting.

 Generalian wrote:

Lovepug13 wrote:

 lordofthegophers wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

 lordofthegophers wrote:
I can see opponents getting frustrated with Soul Grinders of Nurgle behind an aegis. 2+ cover save anyone?

Won't cover enough of the Soulgrinder, sadly.

Really? That sucks, I don't own the model so I'm not sure how big the thing is, but yeah looking at it now you're probably right. Still, if you can get it behind something...

You need to see the model

We just checked at our local GW. The aegis defense line does cover 25% of the model and therefore gives the soulgrinder a +2 cover save.

SO AWESOME!

Is it modeled doing the splits?

My main disappointment with this dex is the lack of ranged firepower. The burning chariot is hilariously bad(GW doesn't know how their own rules work and I bet it will get faq'd) and the soulgrinder only has 3 shots at BS3(rather than the rumoured 6). I just fell like I'm stuck punching tanks to death which as we all know is a crap strategy. Is the only way to deal with this to ally in some CSM or guard?

 Eldarain wrote:

 Generalian wrote:

Lovepug13 wrote:

 lordofthegophers wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

 lordofthegophers wrote:
I can see opponents getting frustrated with Soul Grinders of Nurgle behind an aegis. 2+ cover save anyone?

Won't cover enough of the Soulgrinder, sadly.

Really? That sucks, I don't own the model so I'm not sure how big the thing is, but yeah looking at it now you're probably right. Still, if you can get it behind something...

You need to see the model

We just checked at our local GW. The aegis defense line does cover 25% of the model and therefore gives the soulgrinder a +2 cover save.

SO AWESOME!

Is it modeled doing the splits?

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA no.
We used a soulgrinder made by a manager of Games Workshop used in multiple sponsored tournaments.
We measured the model and the Aegis line and then did the math.
The aegis walls (not the raised parts) covers a little more (by almost 3cm) then 25% of the model and is therefore legally giving it cover.

 Gargantuan wrote:

Lovepug13 wrote:
I can see the random element causing some upset amongst players, I cannot believe that GW keep thinking that the randomness is actually fun.......I dislike they 40k system the more random elements are introduced.

I'm one of those players that enjoy random events and effects

There's a difference between rolling for random objectives or warlord traits and rolling on a table that turns your HQ into a useless pile of sludge if you roll badly.

Rolling bad on a single table should not bork your entire game like that.

Reading the book right now, already I can see the Grimore of True Names having potential to be near-gamebreaking, especially if you get lucky with it and other greater gifts. Imagine a bloodthirster with a 3++ save with either 4+ FNP, or the ability to re-roll failed ++ saves. Scary

On the subject of Khorne, it is just me or did mono-god lists just become viable again? Especially Khorne lists, now that BLs are so cheap and they get a super cheap S8 cannon that ignores cover.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
Im going with no, too random, your tactics mean nothing if it goes stupid on you, the entire point of list building is to lower the reliance on luck.

Im sure something will pop up thats not half bad.

Sure...

Because there's absolutely nothing competitive about a Herald of Slaanesh w/Greater Etherblade + Lesser roll + Steed + Exalted Locus of Beguilement leading a squad of Fiends/Seekers.
I mean, she only makes every single non-3++ character or Shadowfield Archon weep. God forbid she actually gets the Cleaving Blow roll for her lesser gift! Oh dear, now every 6 to-hit she rolls is S9! (and of corse, w/re-roll all missed to-hit rolls she'll NEVER roll 6's...)
And of corse, a unit with rending re-rolling missed to-hit rolls will just bounce off of 2+ saves every single time...

Yep, useless codex is useless... (aparently)

That's it folks, the intertubes have spoken! Time to sell our armies and go play Longwang spam or a Flying french Bakery!

She actually becomes strength 10... she becomes str 5 with greater sword


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Reading the book right now, already I can see the Grimore of True Names having potential to be near-gamebreaking, especially if you get lucky with it and other greater gifts. Imagine a bloodthirster with a 3++ save with either 4+ FNP, or the ability to re-roll failed ++ saves. Scary

On the subject of Khorne, it is just me or did mono-god lists just become viable again? Especially Khorne lists, now that BLs are so cheap and they get a super cheap S8 cannon that ignores cover.

Its pretty abusable item... you can give kairos a +2 invul (plus extra psychic crap)

and you can make a GUO with possibly a +3 invulnerable save (rerollable) and +4 feel no pain... with the biomancy crap to make him STR 9, T10, it will not die, and relentless.
remember kiddies.... its also a monstrous creature with eternal warrior.

Well, I just watched one of my friends take Oracle with 3 Flying Daemon Princes of Tzeentch, 2 squads of pink horrors and 2 Changlings.

There were so many psychic powers to roll for, it was disgusting, and powers that buffed daemon princes to stronger and tougher, combined with warp storm that made inv saves better, and an invisible daemon prince.

My other friend who was playing Dark Angels had no fun whatsoever. The game was called over at round 3.

Competitive and so complicated someone will want to punch you in the face, yes they accomplished this.

 Generalian wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
Im going with no, too random, your tactics mean nothing if it goes stupid on you, the entire point of list building is to lower the reliance on luck.

Im sure something will pop up thats not half bad.

Sure...

Because there's absolutely nothing competitive about a Herald of Slaanesh w/Greater Etherblade + Lesser roll + Steed + Exalted Locus of Beguilement leading a squad of Fiends/Seekers.
I mean, she only makes every single non-3++ character or Shadowfield Archon weep. God forbid she actually gets the Cleaving Blow roll for her lesser gift! Oh dear, now every 6 to-hit she rolls is S9! (and of corse, w/re-roll all missed to-hit rolls she'll NEVER roll 6's...)
And of corse, a unit with rending re-rolling missed to-hit rolls will just bounce off of 2+ saves every single time...

Yep, useless codex is useless... (aparently)

That's it folks, the intertubes have spoken! Time to sell our armies and go play Longwang spam or a Flying french Bakery!

She actually becomes strength 10... she becomes str 5 with greater sword


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Reading the book right now, already I can see the Grimore of True Names having potential to be near-gamebreaking, especially if you get lucky with it and other greater gifts. Imagine a bloodthirster with a 3++ save with either 4+ FNP, or the ability to re-roll failed ++ saves. Scary

On the subject of Khorne, it is just me or did mono-god lists just become viable again? Especially Khorne lists, now that BLs are so cheap and they get a super cheap S8 cannon that ignores cover.

Its pretty abusable item... you can give kairos a +2 invul (plus extra psychic crap)

and you can make a GUO with possibly a +3 invulnerable save (rerollable) and +4 feel no pain... with the biomancy crap to make him STR 9, T10, it will not die, and relentless.
remember kiddies.... its also a monstrous creature with eternal warrior.

If someone did that to their GOU, I would just throw my Belial model at them and hope it kills them, would still have a better chance than me killing that thing!

GUO don't have eternal warrior, one plucky grey knight trooper wounds him and he's dead. Sigh. The only thing in the book with EW is Skulltaker(and I think he loses it to that one GK power that stops demonic gifts)

Also what upgrade for plague flies do people think is the best for the points? Skulls(12" Assault 2, poisoned 4+), proboscis(poisoned 3+), or stingers(1 attack causes ID)as they all cost 5 points.

magicafiend wrote:
GUO don't have eternal warrior, one plucky grey knight trooper wounds him and he's dead. Sigh. The only thing in the book with EW is Skulltaker(and I think he loses it to that one GK power that stops demonic gifts)

Also what upgrade for plague flies do people think is the best for the points? Skulls(12" Assault 2, poisoned 4+), proboscis(poisoned 3+), or stingers(1 attack causes ID)as they all cost 5 points.

Iron arm. Eternal warrior.

WAT NOW!

I never use psychic powers and I did not know Iron Arm gave EW. That is excellent. Any thoughts on the plague flies?

magicafiend wrote:
I never use psychic powers and I did not know Iron Arm gave EW. That is excellent. Any thoughts on the plague flies?

How can you not use psychic powers? They are amazing and are now an integral part of the game.

magicafiend wrote:
I never use psychic powers and I did not know Iron Arm gave EW. That is excellent. Any thoughts on the plague flies?

Fast, tough units that are shrouded and glance vehicles on a 6, what's not to like?

So we are working on trying to break the codex and all we can see right now are a view obvious ones...

The dual soulgrinder behind an aegis with mark of nurgle and phlgem
(+3 cover with skyfire and ridiculous shooting)
(khorne herald manning the auto cannon with his BS 7)

The herald of slaanesh combo everyone is talking about...

The unkillable GUO that is created with biomancy, two greater powers, and the grimore of true names

The fact that you can take 9 exalted seeker chariots for only 675 points... which can easily put out over 50 rending attacks

The unit of 20 pink horrors in killteams....which gives you 20 mastery level 1 psykers since they all count as individual units

The Beasts are nurgle gunline! Just put them in front of a unit of havocs and if anything gets to close to assault... the beasts charge them on their assault phase and hold them up for another round of shooting (plus overwatch)

OH! and the most important one...

If you combine the psyker battle squad with slannesh pavane... you can one shot entire squads of everything.



Right now.... mono nurgle looks to be the nastiest crap I have ever seen.

Also, we did some averages and we can safely say that because of all the random crap.... all games including chaos daemons will take an extra 20min to complete... even if you know the book by heart.

 Generalian wrote:
Right now.... mono nurgle looks to be the nastiest crap I have ever seen.

ANY mono-god list is looking nasty if built right:

Khorne gives you, for 200 points, 20 models dishing out 40 S5 ap3 attacks on the charge, 60 if you put a herald in with them. Heralds themselves seem specifically built to destroy anyone stupid enough to challenge them. Then there is the new bloodthirster stats, the S8 cannon that ignores cover, and the fact that it is free to make a Khorne souldgrinder, saving you 15 points.

Tzeentch gives you the to spam Divination powers, either with cheap heralds or powerful DPs and LoCs. Fateweaver could potentially have a re-rollable 2++ save meaning he will never die, to say nothing of what pink horrors can do with all the prescience floating around.

Slaanesh: One word, RENDING. Cheap as hell rending! MCs and Vehicles with armor 12 and below now have to fear even your basic troops, which with heralds stuck in them go at initiative TEN. Cheap as hell seekers mean your opponent won't be putting any stuff near the edges.

Then there is Nurgle, with troops that have 2+ cover saves and FNP if you put a herald with them, fast tough flies that can glance vehicles on a 6 (necrons who?) and of course, have the above mentioned GUO that WILL NEVER DIE.

What I'm thinking is, if mono lists are already this powerful, what happenes when you mix and match the best from each?

 Generalian wrote:

magicafiend wrote:
I never use psychic powers and I did not know Iron Arm gave EW. That is excellent. Any thoughts on the plague flies?

How can you not use psychic powers? They are amazing and are now an integral part of the game.

I play Daemons and Orks, I never got the chance until now...

Kairos cant get a +2 rerollable.
He can get a +2, but it can't be rerollable.

 Generalian wrote:
Kairos cant get a +2 rerollable.
He can get a +2, but it can't be rerollable.

Umm, yes he can, all tzeentch daemons re-roll saves of one

How much are beasts of nurgle? Do they have upgrades?

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

 Generalian wrote:
Kairos cant get a +2 rerollable.
He can get a +2, but it can't be rerollable.

Umm, yes he can, all tzeentch daemons re-roll saves of one

Ahh. So its almost the exact same thing... since he never fails unless he rolls double ones
That's pretty awesome.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Budzerker wrote:
How much are beasts of nurgle? Do they have upgrades?

Only 52 points.

Budzerker wrote:
How much are beasts of nurgle? Do they have upgrades?

never mind someone beat me to it

To be honest, after seeing the book upclose and more of the models for the second time, I can say that there are going to be some really powerful Mono lists and absolutely sick mixed lists.

TBH, I just want the models, I don't think there is one I don't like.

Except maybe the Slaaneshi Lawnmower of Death.

Any I digress from the other reason I was posting...

Does anyone else think that this book has a lot of hidden Gems inside it - ala Heldrake?

Puscifer wrote:
To be honest, after seeing the book upclose and more of the models for the second time, I can say that there are going to be some really powerful Mono lists and absolutely sick mixed lists.

TBH, I just want the models, I don't think there is one I don't like.

Except maybe the Slaaneshi Lawnmower of Death.

Any I digress from the other reason I was posting...

Does anyone else think that this book has a lot of hidden Gems inside it - ala Heldrake?

EASILY! check out the post above about the sick combinations...
I still like the +3 Invul rerollable, +4 feel no pain, eternal warrior, It will not die, T10 Great Unclean One.
Talk about unkillable.

 Generalian wrote:

Puscifer wrote:
To be honest, after seeing the book upclose and more of the models for the second time, I can say that there are going to be some really powerful Mono lists and absolutely sick mixed lists.

TBH, I just want the models, I don't think there is one I don't like.

Except maybe the Slaaneshi Lawnmower of Death.

Any I digress from the other reason I was posting...

Does anyone else think that this book has a lot of hidden Gems inside it - ala Heldrake?

EASILY! check out the post above about the sick combinations...
I still like the +3 Invul rerollable, +4 feel no pain, eternal warrior, It will not die, T10 Great Unclean One.
Talk about unkillable.

Already ahead of you there and I totally agree with all of your comments on Nurgle. They have the best models too.

 lindsay40k wrote:
Hmm. Do CSM Daemonic units with a MoN count as Daemons of Nurgle for Epidemius?

CSM no longer have summoned daemons, so no...

 Generalian wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:

 Generalian wrote:

Lovepug13 wrote:

 lordofthegophers wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

 lordofthegophers wrote:
I can see opponents getting frustrated with Soul Grinders of Nurgle behind an aegis. 2+ cover save anyone?

Won't cover enough of the Soulgrinder, sadly.

Really? That sucks, I don't own the model so I'm not sure how big the thing is, but yeah looking at it now you're probably right. Still, if you can get it behind something...

You need to see the model

We just checked at our local GW. The aegis defense line does cover 25% of the model and therefore gives the soulgrinder a +2 cover save.

SO AWESOME!

Is it modeled doing the splits?

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA no.
We used a soulgrinder made by a manager of Games Workshop used in multiple sponsored tournaments.
We measured the model and the Aegis line and then did the math.
The aegis walls (not the raised parts) covers a little more (by almost 3cm) then 25% of the model and is therefore legally giving it cover.

And you took into account that most of the mass is on top of the Soul Grinder and therefore not obscured?

Flesh hounds of Khorne rule.

 Generalian wrote:


EASILY! check out the post above about the sick combinations...
I still like the +3 Invul rerollable, +4 feel no pain, eternal warrior, It will not die, T10 Great Unclean One.
Talk about unkillable.

Unkillable GUO, meet broken JotWW!

Selym wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
Hmm. Do CSM Daemonic units with a MoN count as Daemons of Nurgle for Epidemius?

CSM no longer have summoned daemons, so no...

Possessed, Oblits, Talons etc all have the Daemon rule. The point seems debatable both in RAW and fluff. Nine Oblits racking up kills for Gramps? That's some nasty synergy right there...

 Darkseid wrote:

 Generalian wrote:


EASILY! check out the post above about the sick combinations...
I still like the +3 Invul rerollable, +4 feel no pain, eternal warrior, It will not die, T10 Great Unclean One.
Talk about unkillable.

Unkillable GUO, meet broken JotWW!

Rune Priest meet the Warp Storm table.

Yeah, I'm clutching at straws with that one

 Darkseid wrote:

 Generalian wrote:


EASILY! check out the post above about the sick combinations...
I still like the +3 Invul rerollable, +4 feel no pain, eternal warrior, It will not die, T10 Great Unclean One.
Talk about unkillable.

Unkillable GUO, meet broken JotWW!

Exalted!!!

 Darkseid wrote:

 Generalian wrote:


EASILY! check out the post above about the sick combinations...
I still like the +3 Invul rerollable, +4 feel no pain, eternal warrior, It will not die, T10 Great Unclean One.
Talk about unkillable.

Unkillable GUO, meet broken JotWW!

Well, at PML 3 and initiative 4, Nurgle's finest has a good chance to survive JotWW.

EDIT:Why is PML associated with..."them"?

 Darkseid wrote:

 Generalian wrote:


EASILY! check out the post above about the sick combinations...
I still like the +3 Invul rerollable, +4 feel no pain, eternal warrior, It will not die, T10 Great Unclean One.
Talk about unkillable.

Unkillable GUO, meet broken JotWW!

With a 4+ DTW, and Init 4, JOTWW isn't going to work that well.

How about this one then? Flying tzeentch daemon prince (Or lord of change for a cheaper version, if you want to)

Give it full mastery level, wing's, armour, and the tzeentch primaris power. Take off and fly up behind that nasty flyer. 4d6 strength 5 shot's with skyfire into it's butt, hitting it on 2's (Hitting flyers on 2's *squee*)

Before you even shoot it, you can vector strike the flyer for d3+1 strength 6 hits, then shoot the warpfire bolt's out of your butt at it's rear armour.

Heck, if that's not strong enough, you can still pick 2 other powers, and either use those powers combined with this, or spend all warpcharge on adding d6's to the shots you get.

This thing is a strength 5, flying minigun

Now I feel bad for selling my GK lol.. wait... no I don't.

FOR GRANDFATHER NURGLE!!!

Puscifer wrote:
Now I feel bad for selling my GK lol.. wait... no I don't.

FOR GRANDFATHER NURGLE!!!

Ironically, this has just made me think.

We lost collar of Khorne. Pretty much everything became psykers. We lost eternal warrior.

Are grey knight's now UTTERLY unbeatable by daemons? Daemon princes and greater daemons and flies, and beasts, and cavalry, and heralds, all die to force weapons D:

I'm watching a GK vs Daemon game today - I'll let you know after the game.

Should be good though, both players are tourney level.

One is a veteran GK player and the other has a point to prove that Daemons are broken in 40k.

It's all well and good talking abut all the crazy combos and lists you can make to take advantage of the the new codex but the question I ask myself is how are we going to deliver these units.

Against an IG gun line, Balanced Necron footlist, GK Henchman spam etc. 20 Bloodletters sounds great until you get shot off the table before doing anything. With much cheaper troops you could by the MTO game but even then a smart player will bubble wrap his troops. You can still Derp strike them but that didn't work too well last codex. Daemons do have very fast units (Steeds Flys Screamers Blood Crushers )that could easily be in assault turn 2 giving your troops time to walk/Deep strike.


I've only read the codex once but I did see a lack of AT, apart from the cute Plague swords. The old codex relied heavily on Bolt of Tzeetch which was pretty rubbish against Av14. So how will Daemon cope with Land Raiders?

 Nakor The BlueRider wrote:
It's all well and good talking abut all the crazy combos and lists you can make to take advantage of the the new codex but the question I ask myself is how are we going to deliver these units.

Against an IG gun line, Balanced Necron footlist, GK Henchman spam etc. 20 Bloodletters sounds great until you get shot off the table before doing anything. With much cheaper troops you could by the MTO game but even then a smart player will bubble wrap his troops. You can still Derp strike them but that didn't work too well last codex. Daemons do have very fast units (Steeds Flys Screamers Blood Crushers )that could easily be in assault turn 2 giving your troops time to walk/Deep strike.


I've only read the codex once but I did see a lack of AT, apart from the cute Plague swords. The old codex relied heavily on Bolt of Tzeetch which was pretty rubbish against Av14. So how will Daemon cope with Land Raiders?

Land raiders? On the very rare occasion I see them, I can glance it to death with plagueswords, or have a monstrous creature drop down and smack it about.

And my solution, to the getting to the front problem, is to use infiltrating nurgling bases. They can infiltrate 18 inches away from the enemy in the open, so I'm going to create a nurgling barricade, meaning if they shoot at anything through the nurgling's, I get big cover saves, if they shoot at the nurglings, meh, I only lost nurglings, and now my fast stuff is moved up

 Evileyes wrote:

 Nakor The BlueRider wrote:
It's all well and good talking abut all the crazy combos and lists you can make to take advantage of the the new codex but the question I ask myself is how are we going to deliver these units.

Against an IG gun line, Balanced Necron footlist, GK Henchman spam etc. 20 Bloodletters sounds great until you get shot off the table before doing anything. With much cheaper troops you could by the MTO game but even then a smart player will bubble wrap his troops. You can still Derp strike them but that didn't work too well last codex. Daemons do have very fast units (Steeds Flys Screamers Blood Crushers )that could easily be in assault turn 2 giving your troops time to walk/Deep strike.


I've only read the codex once but I did see a lack of AT, apart from the cute Plague swords. The old codex relied heavily on Bolt of Tzeetch which was pretty rubbish against Av14. So how will Daemon cope with Land Raiders?

Land raiders? On the very rare occasion I see them, I can glance it to death with plagueswords, or have a monstrous creature drop down and smack it about.

And my solution, to the getting to the front problem, is to use infiltrating nurgling bases. They can infiltrate 18 inches away from the enemy in the open, so I'm going to create a nurgling barricade, meaning if they shoot at anything through the nurgling's, I get big cover saves, if they shoot at the nurglings, meh, I only lost nurglings, and now my fast stuff is moved up

You read my mind there.

Also - I agree with the Land Raiders. In my Meta, I'm the only player who uses them and I run two. But in that respect, I have never had one destroyed or even a HP knocked off.

Daemons suffer from ranged Anti Tank, but not at CC.

 Evileyes wrote:

And my solution, to the getting to the front problem, is to use infiltrating nurgling bases. They can infiltrate 18 inches away from the enemy in the open, so I'm going to create a nurgling barricade, meaning if they shoot at anything through the nurgling's, I get big cover saves, if they shoot at the nurglings, meh, I only lost nurglings, and now my fast stuff is moved up

With army-wide 5++, I can only see Nurgling screens being of use to units that themselves have Shrouding.

 lindsay40k wrote:

 Evileyes wrote:

And my solution, to the getting to the front problem, is to use infiltrating nurgling bases. They can infiltrate 18 inches away from the enemy in the open, so I'm going to create a nurgling barricade, meaning if they shoot at anything through the nurgling's, I get big cover saves, if they shoot at the nurglings, meh, I only lost nurglings, and now my fast stuff is moved up

With army-wide 5++, I can only see Nurgling screens being of use to units that themselves have Shrouding.

Nurgle ^^

 Nakor The BlueRider wrote:
It's all well and good talking abut all the crazy combos and lists you can make to take advantage of the the new codex but the question I ask myself is how are we going to deliver these units.

Against an IG gun line, Balanced Necron footlist, GK Henchman spam etc. 20 Bloodletters sounds great until you get shot off the table before doing anything. With much cheaper troops you could by the MTO game but even then a smart player will bubble wrap his troops. You can still Derp strike them but that didn't work too well last codex. Daemons do have very fast units (Steeds Flys Screamers Blood Crushers )that could easily be in assault turn 2 giving your troops time to walk/Deep strike.


I've only read the codex once but I did see a lack of AT, apart from the cute Plague swords. The old codex relied heavily on Bolt of Tzeetch which was pretty rubbish against Av14. So how will Daemon cope with Land Raiders?

I've played around with a CSM daemon prince of Tzeentch with mastery 1 and wings, and I can promise you that the possibility of bringing three of those mother-fethers to the field will turn your average tank retinue into a smoking pile of scrap metal, faster than you can say "OP!".

Selym wrote:

 Nakor The BlueRider wrote:
It's all well and good talking abut all the crazy combos and lists you can make to take advantage of the the new codex but the question I ask myself is how are we going to deliver these units.

Against an IG gun line, Balanced Necron footlist, GK Henchman spam etc. 20 Bloodletters sounds great until you get shot off the table before doing anything. With much cheaper troops you could by the MTO game but even then a smart player will bubble wrap his troops. You can still Derp strike them but that didn't work too well last codex. Daemons do have very fast units (Steeds Flys Screamers Blood Crushers )that could easily be in assault turn 2 giving your troops time to walk/Deep strike.


I've only read the codex once but I did see a lack of AT, apart from the cute Plague swords. The old codex relied heavily on Bolt of Tzeetch which was pretty rubbish against Av14. So how will Daemon cope with Land Raiders?

I've played around with a CSM daemon prince of Tzeentch with mastery 1 and wings, and I can promise you that the possibility of bringing three of those mother-fethers to the field will turn your average tank retinue into a smoking pile of scrap metal, faster than you can say "OP!".

4, plus a lord of change xD

 Evileyes wrote:

Selym wrote:

 Nakor The BlueRider wrote:
It's all well and good talking abut all the crazy combos and lists you can make to take advantage of the the new codex but the question I ask myself is how are we going to deliver these units.

Against an IG gun line, Balanced Necron footlist, GK Henchman spam etc. 20 Bloodletters sounds great until you get shot off the table before doing anything. With much cheaper troops you could by the MTO game but even then a smart player will bubble wrap his troops. You can still Derp strike them but that didn't work too well last codex. Daemons do have very fast units (Steeds Flys Screamers Blood Crushers )that could easily be in assault turn 2 giving your troops time to walk/Deep strike.


I've only read the codex once but I did see a lack of AT, apart from the cute Plague swords. The old codex relied heavily on Bolt of Tzeetch which was pretty rubbish against Av14. So how will Daemon cope with Land Raiders?

I've played around with a CSM daemon prince of Tzeentch with mastery 1 and wings, and I can promise you that the possibility of bringing three of those mother-fethers to the field will turn your average tank retinue into a smoking pile of scrap metal, faster than you can say "OP!".

4, plus a lord of change xD

*Evil Grin*

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Generalian wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:

 Generalian wrote:

Lovepug13 wrote:

 lordofthegophers wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

 lordofthegophers wrote:
I can see opponents getting frustrated with Soul Grinders of Nurgle behind an aegis. 2+ cover save anyone?

Won't cover enough of the Soulgrinder, sadly.

Really? That sucks, I don't own the model so I'm not sure how big the thing is, but yeah looking at it now you're probably right. Still, if you can get it behind something...

You need to see the model

We just checked at our local GW. The aegis defense line does cover 25% of the model and therefore gives the soulgrinder a +2 cover save.

SO AWESOME!

Is it modeled doing the splits?

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA no.
We used a soulgrinder made by a manager of Games Workshop used in multiple sponsored tournaments.
We measured the model and the Aegis line and then did the math.
The aegis walls (not the raised parts) covers a little more (by almost 3cm) then 25% of the model and is therefore legally giving it cover.

And you took into account that most of the mass is on top of the Soul Grinder and therefore not obscured?

Doesn't matter. As long as 25% of the model is covered... it legally has cover.

 Evileyes wrote:
How about this one then? Flying tzeentch daemon prince (Or lord of change for a cheaper version, if you want to)

Give it full mastery level, wing's, armour, and the tzeentch primaris power. Take off and fly up behind that nasty flyer. 4d6 strength 5 shot's with skyfire into it's butt, hitting it on 2's (Hitting flyers on 2's *squee*)

Before you even shoot it, you can vector strike the flyer for d3+1 strength 6 hits, then shoot the warpfire bolt's out of your butt at it's rear armour.

Heck, if that's not strong enough, you can still pick 2 other powers, and either use those powers combined with this, or spend all warpcharge on adding d6's to the shots you get.

This thing is a strength 5, flying minigun

Regardless of mastery level, FMCs may only use 2 witch fires max per shooting phase, and only 1 if they have done a vector strike. You're better off using the charged up primaris, but good luck denting a storm raven with s5.

 Generalian wrote:
The dual soulgrinder behind an aegis with mark of nurgle and phlgem
(+3 cover with skyfire and ridiculous shooting)
(khorne herald manning the auto cannon with his BS 7)

A normal bloodletter is BS 5. That's all you need to man the gun. Those heralds are gems and should be used doing work up close and personal.

You can't hide 25% of the soulgrinder behind an aegis. Blame those spiderly legs. Its 25% of the vehicle, not 25% from the bottom. Try it and see. You will get maybe 7% covered.

Soulgrinders getting cover? I never thought I'd wish for the days of 5th when vehicles had to have their HULL covered 25% to receive a cover save.

 Generalian wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Generalian wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:

 Generalian wrote:

Lovepug13 wrote:

 lordofthegophers wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

 lordofthegophers wrote:
I can see opponents getting frustrated with Soul Grinders of Nurgle behind an aegis. 2+ cover save anyone?

Won't cover enough of the Soulgrinder, sadly.

Really? That sucks, I don't own the model so I'm not sure how big the thing is, but yeah looking at it now you're probably right. Still, if you can get it behind something...

You need to see the model

We just checked at our local GW. The aegis defense line does cover 25% of the model and therefore gives the soulgrinder a +2 cover save.

SO AWESOME!

Is it modeled doing the splits?

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA no.
We used a soulgrinder made by a manager of Games Workshop used in multiple sponsored tournaments.
We measured the model and the Aegis line and then did the math.
The aegis walls (not the raised parts) covers a little more (by almost 3cm) then 25% of the model and is therefore legally giving it cover.

And you took into account that most of the mass is on top of the Soul Grinder and therefore not obscured?

Doesn't matter. As long as 25% of the model is covered... it legally has cover.

That's the thing though; most of the surface area that needs to be covered is way above the aegis.

Doesnt soulgrinder get a 5++ for being a daemon?

 tetrisphreak wrote:
Doesnt soulgrinder get a 5++ for being a daemon?

probably. And that makes it able to deflect 1/3 of any hits

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Generalian wrote:
The dual soulgrinder behind an aegis with mark of nurgle and phlgem
(+3 cover with skyfire and ridiculous shooting)
(khorne herald manning the auto cannon with his BS 7)

A normal bloodletter is BS 5. That's all you need to man the gun. Those heralds are gems and should be used doing work up close and personal.

You can't hide 25% of the soulgrinder behind an aegis. Blame those spiderly legs. Its 25% of the vehicle, not 25% from the bottom. Try it and see. You will get maybe 7% covered.

Not true. The legs are absolutely a core part of the model, not just the upper part. No where do the rules state this is not the case.

If you measure from the top to bottom of the model, it is more than 25% covered and would benefit from aegis.

I feel like people are ignoring the massive flaws of this codex. Not one of the new units is great, skullcannon is situational and wouldn't be needed if we could actually get assualt grenades. Soulgrinders only have 3 shots at BS3, I don't know why people are getting excited for 140 point autocannons. Everything in the elites section is worse than it was before, and none used them before so they are hardly usable now. The unkillable GUO will be ignored, he's slow enough and lacks any hitting power to be viable. The only units I feel will do anything are mass bloodletters, mass demonettes, screamers(much worse than before but still one of our better choices), seekers, and greater demons seem alright. It feels like we haven't got a single new unit and most of the old ones have been nerfed into the ground. At least I don't have to buy new models?

magicafiend wrote:
I feel like people are ignoring the massive flaws of this codex. Not one of the new units is great, skullcannon is situational and wouldn't be needed if we could actually get assualt grenades. Soulgrinders only have 3 shots at BS3, I don't know why people are getting excited for 140 point autocannons. Everything in the elites section is worse than it was before, and none used them before so they are hardly usable now. The unkillable GUO will be ignored, he's slow enough and lacks any hitting power to be viable. The only units I feel will do anything are mass bloodletters, mass demonettes, screamers(much worse than before but still one of our better choices), seekers, and greater demons seem alright. It feels like we haven't got a single new unit and most of the old ones have been nerfed into the ground. At least I don't have to buy new models?

I watched a game last night where the GUO took out 2 big units of Meganobz by himself. He only took 1 wound in the entire process....

He is hard to ignore when spearheaded correctly, and is shrouded.

The Codex requires skill to run now, which is a good thing. But, yes, it is extremely competitive.

The quadgun also gives cover, so behind the quadgun and the aegis, the soulgrinder easilly has 25%

That's just a bad ork player then, he should have either run away or tarpitted with grots or boys. GUO's aren't exactly hard to get away from.

magicafiend wrote:
That's just a bad ork player then, he should have either run away or tarpitted with grots or boys. GUO's aren't exactly hard to get away from.

The option to run away and/or tarpit is not always there. Suppose the GUO parked himself on an objective that you had to take to be able to win? Then what?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

magicafiend wrote:
That's just a bad ork player then, he should have either run away or tarpitted with grots or boys. GUO's aren't exactly hard to get away from.

The option to run away and/or tarpit is not always there. Suppose the GUO parked himself on an objective that you had to take to be able to win? Then what?

Then the daemon player is smart, and spending that many points wisely.

magicafiend wrote:
That's just a bad ork player then, he should have either run away or tarpitted with grots or boys. GUO's aren't exactly hard to get away from.

Unless you cut of retreat from behind with some speedy slaanesh units [As you can see, all you need to succeed is a little thinking].

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

magicafiend wrote:
That's just a bad ork player then, he should have either run away or tarpitted with grots or boys. GUO's aren't exactly hard to get away from.

The option to run away and/or tarpit is not always there. Suppose the GUO parked himself on an objective that you had to take to be able to win? Then what?

And that is exactly what happened. The mission was the Relic. There was no avoiding the GUO. He sent the Meganobz right into it, not knowing just how damn nasty it was.
Not a bad player at all. It is not like he had the new book memorized after the Codex has been out for a day.....

Most 6th Edition missions are objectives, it is tough to avoid the GUO in the hands of a good daemon player.

There's only a 1/6 chance you'll get both iron arm and the re-roll invuls. 50% chance to get iron arm and a 33% chance to get the re-roll.
Is 300 points worth the 1/6 chance of getting a beastly unit?

 Blaggard wrote:
There's only a 1/6 chance you'll get both iron arm and the re-roll invuls. 50% chance to get iron arm and a 33% chance to get the re-roll.
Is 300 points worth the 1/6 chance of getting a beastly unit?

I would wager yes, as it has other qualities besides those two buffs. The major ones being that it is an MC, and has a ridiculously high toughness.

Selym wrote:

 Blaggard wrote:
There's only a 1/6 chance you'll get both iron arm and the re-roll invuls. 50% chance to get iron arm and a 33% chance to get the re-roll.
Is 300 points worth the 1/6 chance of getting a beastly unit?

I would wager yes, as it has other qualities besides those two buffs. The major ones being that it is an MC, and has a ridiculously high toughness.

Yes, it is worth it. Even without the buffs he is beastly. And he can always cause instant death.

The GUO one didn't even have Iron Arm in last night's game. He had balesword, re-roll invulns, endurance, and warp speed.

NoArmorSave wrote:

Selym wrote:

 Blaggard wrote:
There's only a 1/6 chance you'll get both iron arm and the re-roll invuls. 50% chance to get iron arm and a 33% chance to get the re-roll.
Is 300 points worth the 1/6 chance of getting a beastly unit?

I would wager yes, as it has other qualities besides those two buffs. The major ones being that it is an MC, and has a ridiculously high toughness.

Yes, it is worth it. Even without the buffs he is beastly. And he can always cause instant death.

The GUO one didn't even have Iron Arm in last night's game. He had re-roll invulns, endurance, and warp speed.

]Well there we go. Chaos doesn't leave it's followers in the dust

finally i can complete my fluffy CSM nurgle army with a GUO and hes a beast!

GUO and typhus tag team!!!

 xscoutsniperx wrote:
finally i can complete my fluffy CSM nurgle army with a GUO and hes a beast!

GUO and typhus tag team!!!

Gotta love those 7's

magicafiend wrote:
I feel like people are ignoring the massive flaws of this codex. Not one of the new units is great, skullcannon is situational and wouldn't be needed if we could actually get assualt grenades.

Do we want them?

Seriously, I'm primarily a Tyranid player, and I found it weird when all of my gribblies could do the same thing as grenades.

I like having grenades as something particular to industrialised races and races with more exotic logistics having other ways of dealing with entrenched defenders. I've really enjoyed having to use synergy in my swarm and doing the same with my Daemons sounds cool.

 lindsay40k wrote:

magicafiend wrote:
I feel like people are ignoring the massive flaws of this codex. Not one of the new units is great, skullcannon is situational and wouldn't be needed if we could actually get assualt grenades.

Do we want them?

Seriously, I'm primarily a Tyranid player, and I found it weird when all of my gribblies could do the same thing as grenades.

I like having grenades as something particular to industrialised races and races with more exotic logistics having other ways of dealing with entrenched defenders. I've really enjoyed having to use synergy in my swarm and doing the same with my Daemons sounds cool.

Yes, like you say, this codex, and the other two new codices require co-operation between units and sub-faction types. You can't have everything in a single unit anymore.

I want to to use fate waver but he's so expensive and only t5 I don't know if Its worth it.

 lindsay40k wrote:

Selym wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
Hmm. Do CSM Daemonic units with a MoN count as Daemons of Nurgle for Epidemius?

CSM no longer have summoned daemons, so no...

Possessed, Oblits, Talons etc all have the Daemon rule. The point seems debatable both in RAW and fluff. Nine Oblits racking up kills for Gramps? That's some nasty synergy right there...

No. The book clearly states that it only affects ALIGNED daemons... therefore nothing in the other books combo. It also means you cannot use epidemius with plaque marines.

 Generalian wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:

Selym wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:
Hmm. Do CSM Daemonic units with a MoN count as Daemons of Nurgle for Epidemius?

CSM no longer have summoned daemons, so no...

Possessed, Oblits, Talons etc all have the Daemon rule. The point seems debatable both in RAW and fluff. Nine Oblits racking up kills for Gramps? That's some nasty synergy right there...

No. The book clearly states that it only affects ALIGNED daemons... therefore nothing in the other books combo. It also means you cannot use epidemius with plaque marines.

Damn... I was looking forward to nurgle cheese :/
Ah, well, looks like I'll have to work with a more varied list. My daemon prince of Tzeentch will be pleased

When you pay 300+ points for one model, don't be surprised when that one model is awesome. GUO's entire thing, is that it's resillient as hell.

As for fateweaver...well, a normal lord of change, has +5 more weapon skill, +1 more strength, toughness, initiative, +3 more attacks. Add that to the fact that he can get mastery level 3, and still be 50 point's less than fateweaver. All fateweaver gives you really, is one reroll a turn. You can't even pick what powers he takes, he get's one random one from each discipline.

Fateweaver is a walking joke now sadly. The unnamed version is vastly cheaper, and vastly stronger.

I just...300 point's for a monstrous creature with a lower weapon skill than a grot...?! Really?

 Evileyes wrote:
When you pay 300+ points for one model, don't be surprised when that one model is awesome. GUO's entire thing, is that it's resillient as hell.

As for fateweaver...well, a normal lord of change, has +5 more weapon skill, +1 more strength, toughness, initiative, +3 more attacks. Add that to the fact that he can get mastery level 3, and still be 50 point's less than fateweaver. All fateweaver gives you really, is one reroll a turn. You can't even pick what powers he takes, he get's one random one from each discipline.

Fateweaver is a walking joke now sadly. The unnamed version is vastly cheaper, and vastly stronger.

I just...300 point's for a monstrous creature with a lower weapon skill than a grot...?! Really?

Actually, Fatewever is still quite strong. He has access to Biomancy, so he can buff himself or someone else.
He let's you re-roll one dice per turn. Blow your Iron Arm roll on your GUO, or fail to cast a Biomancy power... There you go.

He allows you to re-roll the result on the Warpstorm table every turn. That is a huge benefit.

Also, his shooting is nasty. That 24" D6+4 ST AP2 beam is not to be scoffed at. Roll bad on the ST roll, no problem, Fateweaver let's you re-roll.

Playing a lot of Space Wolves with JOTW, or other remove from play effects? No problem, Fateweaver let's you re-roll your DTW roll.

As a support unit, he is still very viable.

NoArmorSave wrote:

 Evileyes wrote:
When you pay 300+ points for one model, don't be surprised when that one model is awesome. GUO's entire thing, is that it's resillient as hell.

As for fateweaver...well, a normal lord of change, has +5 more weapon skill, +1 more strength, toughness, initiative, +3 more attacks. Add that to the fact that he can get mastery level 3, and still be 50 point's less than fateweaver. All fateweaver gives you really, is one reroll a turn. You can't even pick what powers he takes, he get's one random one from each discipline.

Fateweaver is a walking joke now sadly. The unnamed version is vastly cheaper, and vastly stronger.

I just...300 point's for a monstrous creature with a lower weapon skill than a grot...?! Really?

Actually, Fatewever is still quite strong. He has access to Biomancy, so he can buff himself or someone else.
He let's you re-roll one dice per turn. Blow your Iron Arm roll on your GUO, or fail to cast a Biomancy power... There you go.

He allows you to re-roll the result on the Warpstorm table every turn. That is a huge benefit.

Also, his shooting is nasty. That 24" D6+4 ST AP2 beam is not to be scoffed at. Roll bad on the ST roll, no problem, Fateweaver let's you re-roll.

Playing a lot of Space Wolves with JOTW, or other remove from play effects? No problem, Fateweaver let's you re-roll your DTW roll.

As a support unit, he is still very viable.

I don't think he's viable at all. Those are all very minor situational things and require him to be alive, which he won't be with t5 and only a 4++. He's just not worth 300 pts.

 Generalian wrote:
So we are working on trying to break the codex and all we can see right now are a view obvious ones...

If you combine the psyker battle squad with slannesh pavane... you can one shot entire squads of everything.

Could you explain this in a little more detail please? I'm not quite sure I follow. Whose psyker battle squad, and how is this made possible?

Thanks...

haroon wrote:

NoArmorSave wrote:

 Evileyes wrote:
When you pay 300+ points for one model, don't be surprised when that one model is awesome. GUO's entire thing, is that it's resillient as hell.

As for fateweaver...well, a normal lord of change, has +5 more weapon skill, +1 more strength, toughness, initiative, +3 more attacks. Add that to the fact that he can get mastery level 3, and still be 50 point's less than fateweaver. All fateweaver gives you really, is one reroll a turn. You can't even pick what powers he takes, he get's one random one from each discipline.

Fateweaver is a walking joke now sadly. The unnamed version is vastly cheaper, and vastly stronger.

I just...300 point's for a monstrous creature with a lower weapon skill than a grot...?! Really?

Actually, Fatewever is still quite strong. He has access to Biomancy, so he can buff himself or someone else.
He let's you re-roll one dice per turn. Blow your Iron Arm roll on your GUO, or fail to cast a Biomancy power... There you go.

He allows you to re-roll the result on the Warpstorm table every turn. That is a huge benefit.

Also, his shooting is nasty. That 24" D6+4 ST AP2 beam is not to be scoffed at. Roll bad on the ST roll, no problem, Fateweaver let's you re-roll.

Playing a lot of Space Wolves with JOTW, or other remove from play effects? No problem, Fateweaver let's you re-roll your DTW roll.

As a support unit, he is still very viable.

I don't think he's viable at all. Those are all very minor situational things and require him to be alive, which he won't be with t5 and only a 4++. He's just not worth 300 pts.

"which he won't be with t5 and only a 4++"

Biomancy, Invisibility are a couple of ways to mitigate that. You can easily set him up with T8, or to have a 2+ save that he can re-roll once.
He is also a FMC, so shooting is largely mitigated barring heavy flyers. I can keep him alive just fine.

His powers are far from "minor or situational". I don't think you understand him at all. His shooting can be flat out gross, and you can position him easily where he will do maximum damage with it.
The re-roll can also be game changing.

He is plenty viable and very powerful.

NoArmorSave wrote:

haroon wrote:

NoArmorSave wrote:

 Evileyes wrote:
When you pay 300+ points for one model, don't be surprised when that one model is awesome. GUO's entire thing, is that it's resillient as hell.

As for fateweaver...well, a normal lord of change, has +5 more weapon skill, +1 more strength, toughness, initiative, +3 more attacks. Add that to the fact that he can get mastery level 3, and still be 50 point's less than fateweaver. All fateweaver gives you really, is one reroll a turn. You can't even pick what powers he takes, he get's one random one from each discipline.

Fateweaver is a walking joke now sadly. The unnamed version is vastly cheaper, and vastly stronger.

I just...300 point's for a monstrous creature with a lower weapon skill than a grot...?! Really?

Actually, Fatewever is still quite strong. He has access to Biomancy, so he can buff himself or someone else.
He let's you re-roll one dice per turn. Blow your Iron Arm roll on your GUO, or fail to cast a Biomancy power... There you go.

He allows you to re-roll the result on the Warpstorm table every turn. That is a huge benefit.

Also, his shooting is nasty. That 24" D6+4 ST AP2 beam is not to be scoffed at. Roll bad on the ST roll, no problem, Fateweaver let's you re-roll.

Playing a lot of Space Wolves with JOTW, or other remove from play effects? No problem, Fateweaver let's you re-roll your DTW roll.

As a support unit, he is still very viable.

I don't think he's viable at all. Those are all very minor situational things and require him to be alive, which he won't be with t5 and only a 4++. He's just not worth 300 pts.

"which he won't be with t5 and only a 4++"

Biomancy, Invisibility are a couple of ways to mitigate that. You can easily set him up with T8, or to have a 2+ save that he can re-roll once.
He is also a FMC, so shooting is largely mitigated barring heavy flyers. I can keep him alive just fine.

His powers are far from "minor or situational". I don't think you understand him at all. His shooting can be flat out gross, and you can position him easily where he will do maximum damage with it.
The re-roll can also be game changing.

He is plenty viable and very powerful.

He's really not, you cannot "easily " set him up with t8 because he only gets 1 biomancy power so that's a 1/6 chance to get iron arm. You cannot count on these things for survivability. The more I think about it the more I realize how terrible he is. Also there's no way to get a 2+ that he can reroll that I can see. You have to remember he only gets 1 power from each table and its random.

People seem to think you will get your powers you want every game, I designed a Nid list a while back with the focus on enfeeble, after repeatly rolling it I found its not worth the time to do because depending on powers is idiotic. Divination is the only good one because the primis power is infinitely useful.

haroon wrote:

NoArmorSave wrote:

haroon wrote:

NoArmorSave wrote:

 Evileyes wrote:
When you pay 300+ points for one model, don't be surprised when that one model is awesome. GUO's entire thing, is that it's resillient as hell.

As for fateweaver...well, a normal lord of change, has +5 more weapon skill, +1 more strength, toughness, initiative, +3 more attacks. Add that to the fact that he can get mastery level 3, and still be 50 point's less than fateweaver. All fateweaver gives you really, is one reroll a turn. You can't even pick what powers he takes, he get's one random one from each discipline.

Fateweaver is a walking joke now sadly. The unnamed version is vastly cheaper, and vastly stronger.

I just...300 point's for a monstrous creature with a lower weapon skill than a grot...?! Really?

Actually, Fatewever is still quite strong. He has access to Biomancy, so he can buff himself or someone else.
He let's you re-roll one dice per turn. Blow your Iron Arm roll on your GUO, or fail to cast a Biomancy power... There you go.

He allows you to re-roll the result on the Warpstorm table every turn. That is a huge benefit.

Also, his shooting is nasty. That 24" D6+4 ST AP2 beam is not to be scoffed at. Roll bad on the ST roll, no problem, Fateweaver let's you re-roll.

Playing a lot of Space Wolves with JOTW, or other remove from play effects? No problem, Fateweaver let's you re-roll your DTW roll.

As a support unit, he is still very viable.

I don't think he's viable at all. Those are all very minor situational things and require him to be alive, which he won't be with t5 and only a 4++. He's just not worth 300 pts.

"which he won't be with t5 and only a 4++"

Biomancy, Invisibility are a couple of ways to mitigate that. You can easily set him up with T8, or to have a 2+ save that he can re-roll once.
He is also a FMC, so shooting is largely mitigated barring heavy flyers. I can keep him alive just fine.

His powers are far from "minor or situational". I don't think you understand him at all. His shooting can be flat out gross, and you can position him easily where he will do maximum damage with it.
The re-roll can also be game changing.

He is plenty viable and very powerful.

He's really not, you cannot "easily " set him up with t8 because he only gets 1 biomancy power so that's a 1/6 chance to get iron arm. You cannot count on these things for survivability. The more I think about it the more I realize how terrible he is. Also there's no way to get a 2+ that he can reroll that I can see. You have to remember he only gets 1 power from each table and its random.

He's a damon of tzeentch, all of them re-roll invuln saves of 1. Therefore, for all itens and purposes, the 2++ he gets from Grimore of True Names is re-rollable...

I think Demons can be pretty good. A lot better than WHFB daemons at least.

I originally had a pretty powerful list written up with Slaanesh and Tz units, but after reading about the Burning Chariot of Tz mess up, I don't know if I want to commit anymore.

It is going to be really interesting when this GUO everyone is talking about winds up in base to base with the Swarmlord. XD

That said. This book is definitely competitive. Not a doubt in my mind.

Nightwolf829 wrote:
It is going to be really interesting when this GUO everyone is talking about winds up in base to base with the Swarmlord. XD

That said. This book is definitely competitive. Not a doubt in my mind.

Or, poisoned gants!

 HERO wrote:
I think Demons can be pretty good. A lot better than WHFB daemons at least.

I originally had a pretty powerful list written up with Slaanesh and Tz units, but after reading about the Burning Chariot of Tz mess up, I don't know if I want to commit anymore.

Erm, Fantasy Daemons are still broken as hell...
Have you actually seen what a Loc w/Wand of Whimsy does? God forbid the (mandetory) 2x Skullcannons for all of 270pts.

The problem with Fantasy is that half the book sucks monkeyballs, the other half is still game-breakingly over the top...


I hope Burning Chariots get FAQ'd quickly though...
While they're not 100% unplayable, I can't ever see one surviving past the first time it shoots something. Kind of a poor trade, especially the anti-tank shot.

Well, im definitely like the idea of a herald and a group of pink horrors sitting back in my CSM back line, 135 points for a divination psyker and a 10 man squad to feed him some extra wounds if needed.

NoArmorSave wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Generalian wrote:
The dual soulgrinder behind an aegis with mark of nurgle and phlgem
(+3 cover with skyfire and ridiculous shooting)
(khorne herald manning the auto cannon with his BS 7)

A normal bloodletter is BS 5. That's all you need to man the gun. Those heralds are gems and should be used doing work up close and personal.

You can't hide 25% of the soulgrinder behind an aegis. Blame those spiderly legs. Its 25% of the vehicle, not 25% from the bottom. Try it and see. You will get maybe 7% covered.

Not true. The legs are absolutely a core part of the model, not just the upper part. No where do the rules state this is not the case.

If you measure from the top to bottom of the model, it is more than 25% covered and would benefit from aegis.

25% of the height maybe, but not the mass of the model. The soul grinder is on spindly legs with a massive body, much like a ... well ... spider! Check the wording on cover for vehicles. Does it say 25% of the model, or 25% of the height?

 labmouse42 wrote:

NoArmorSave wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Generalian wrote:
The dual soulgrinder behind an aegis with mark of nurgle and phlgem
(+3 cover with skyfire and ridiculous shooting)
(khorne herald manning the auto cannon with his BS 7)

A normal bloodletter is BS 5. That's all you need to man the gun. Those heralds are gems and should be used doing work up close and personal.

You can't hide 25% of the soulgrinder behind an aegis. Blame those spiderly legs. Its 25% of the vehicle, not 25% from the bottom. Try it and see. You will get maybe 7% covered.

Not true. The legs are absolutely a core part of the model, not just the upper part. No where do the rules state this is not the case.

If you measure from the top to bottom of the model, it is more than 25% covered and would benefit from aegis.

25% of the height maybe, but not the mass of the model. The soul grinder is on spindly legs with a massive body, much like a ... well ... spider! Check the wording on cover for vehicles. Does it say 25% of the model, or 25% of the height?

25% of the facing.

I believe they will make good allies to CSM, but Warp Storm's ability to completely ruin a game for the demon player will weed them out of any serious competitors hands as a primary army.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 HERO wrote:
I think Demons can be pretty good. A lot better than WHFB daemons at least.

I originally had a pretty powerful list written up with Slaanesh and Tz units, but after reading about the Burning Chariot of Tz mess up, I don't know if I want to commit anymore.

Erm, Fantasy Daemons are still broken as hell...
Have you actually seen what a Loc w/Wand of Whimsy does? God forbid the (mandetory) 2x Skullcannons for all of 270pts.

The problem with Fantasy is that half the book sucks monkeyballs, the other half is still game-breakingly over the top...


I hope Burning Chariots get FAQ'd quickly though...
While they're not 100% unplayable, I can't ever see one surviving past the first time it shoots something. Kind of a poor trade, especially the anti-tank shot.

I hear this is the case as well.
The grossly underpriced Skullcannons, but I don't think much else is overpowered. In fact, I'm pretty sure Fantasy Daemons is in pretty bad shape right now from what I've heard.
I have yet to see the book myself though.. but any book without access to a dispel scroll can't be that great lol.

 xole wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:

NoArmorSave wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Generalian wrote:
The dual soulgrinder behind an aegis with mark of nurgle and phlgem
(+3 cover with skyfire and ridiculous shooting)
(khorne herald manning the auto cannon with his BS 7)

A normal bloodletter is BS 5. That's all you need to man the gun. Those heralds are gems and should be used doing work up close and personal.

You can't hide 25% of the soulgrinder behind an aegis. Blame those spiderly legs. Its 25% of the vehicle, not 25% from the bottom. Try it and see. You will get maybe 7% covered.

Not true. The legs are absolutely a core part of the model, not just the upper part. No where do the rules state this is not the case.

If you measure from the top to bottom of the model, it is more than 25% covered and would benefit from aegis.

25% of the height maybe, but not the mass of the model. The soul grinder is on spindly legs with a massive body, much like a ... well ... spider! Check the wording on cover for vehicles. Does it say 25% of the model, or 25% of the height?

25% of the facing.

How do you determine a Defiler/Soulgrinders facings? Seems like a pretty nebulous model that way.

 labmouse42 wrote:

NoArmorSave wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Generalian wrote:
The dual soulgrinder behind an aegis with mark of nurgle and phlgem
(+3 cover with skyfire and ridiculous shooting)
(khorne herald manning the auto cannon with his BS 7)

A normal bloodletter is BS 5. That's all you need to man the gun. Those heralds are gems and should be used doing work up close and personal.

You can't hide 25% of the soulgrinder behind an aegis. Blame those spiderly legs. Its 25% of the vehicle, not 25% from the bottom. Try it and see. You will get maybe 7% covered.

Not true. The legs are absolutely a core part of the model, not just the upper part. No where do the rules state this is not the case.

If you measure from the top to bottom of the model, it is more than 25% covered and would benefit from aegis.

25% of the height maybe, but not the mass of the model. The soul grinder is on spindly legs with a massive body, much like a ... well ... spider! Check the wording on cover for vehicles. Does it say 25% of the model, or 25% of the height?

25% hidden of the FACING of the vehicle from the FIRER = 4+ cover save in ruins or other applicable cover save listed on page 18.

That means that anything shooting at a ground level to the soul grinder will give the cover save, but anything like a flyer or model higher up will ignore it.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2012/07/40k-vehicles-and-cover-saves-in-6th.html

 Eldarain wrote:

 xole wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:

NoArmorSave wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Generalian wrote:
The dual soulgrinder behind an aegis with mark of nurgle and phlgem
(+3 cover with skyfire and ridiculous shooting)
(khorne herald manning the auto cannon with his BS 7)

A normal bloodletter is BS 5. That's all you need to man the gun. Those heralds are gems and should be used doing work up close and personal.

You can't hide 25% of the soulgrinder behind an aegis. Blame those spiderly legs. Its 25% of the vehicle, not 25% from the bottom. Try it and see. You will get maybe 7% covered.

Not true. The legs are absolutely a core part of the model, not just the upper part. No where do the rules state this is not the case.

If you measure from the top to bottom of the model, it is more than 25% covered and would benefit from aegis.

25% of the height maybe, but not the mass of the model. The soul grinder is on spindly legs with a massive body, much like a ... well ... spider! Check the wording on cover for vehicles. Does it say 25% of the model, or 25% of the height?

25% of the facing.

How do you determine a Defiler/Soulgrinders facings? Seems like a pretty nebulous model that way.

I have measured it multiple times. Just sit down the Soul Grinder and stack 4 pieces of Aegis in front of it. It is more than 25% covered.

You may not like the rule, but it is 100% legal and is what it is.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Generalian wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:

NoArmorSave wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Generalian wrote:
The dual soulgrinder behind an aegis with mark of nurgle and phlgem
(+3 cover with skyfire and ridiculous shooting)
(khorne herald manning the auto cannon with his BS 7)

A normal bloodletter is BS 5. That's all you need to man the gun. Those heralds are gems and should be used doing work up close and personal.

You can't hide 25% of the soulgrinder behind an aegis. Blame those spiderly legs. Its 25% of the vehicle, not 25% from the bottom. Try it and see. You will get maybe 7% covered.

Not true. The legs are absolutely a core part of the model, not just the upper part. No where do the rules state this is not the case.

If you measure from the top to bottom of the model, it is more than 25% covered and would benefit from aegis.

25% of the height maybe, but not the mass of the model. The soul grinder is on spindly legs with a massive body, much like a ... well ... spider! Check the wording on cover for vehicles. Does it say 25% of the model, or 25% of the height?

25% hidden of the FACING of the vehicle from the FIRER = 4+ cover save in ruins or other applicable cover save listed on page 18.

That means that anything shooting at a ground level to the soul grinder will give the cover save, but anything like a flyer or model higher up will ignore it.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2012/07/40k-vehicles-and-cover-saves-in-6th.html

This is the case for almost any model being shot at by a flyer. Not just the Soul Grinder.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

haroon wrote:

NoArmorSave wrote:

haroon wrote:

NoArmorSave wrote:

 Evileyes wrote:
When you pay 300+ points for one model, don't be surprised when that one model is awesome. GUO's entire thing, is that it's resillient as hell.

As for fateweaver...well, a normal lord of change, has +5 more weapon skill, +1 more strength, toughness, initiative, +3 more attacks. Add that to the fact that he can get mastery level 3, and still be 50 point's less than fateweaver. All fateweaver gives you really, is one reroll a turn. You can't even pick what powers he takes, he get's one random one from each discipline.

Fateweaver is a walking joke now sadly. The unnamed version is vastly cheaper, and vastly stronger.

I just...300 point's for a monstrous creature with a lower weapon skill than a grot...?! Really?

Actually, Fatewever is still quite strong. He has access to Biomancy, so he can buff himself or someone else.
He let's you re-roll one dice per turn. Blow your Iron Arm roll on your GUO, or fail to cast a Biomancy power... There you go.

He allows you to re-roll the result on the Warpstorm table every turn. That is a huge benefit.

Also, his shooting is nasty. That 24" D6+4 ST AP2 beam is not to be scoffed at. Roll bad on the ST roll, no problem, Fateweaver let's you re-roll.

Playing a lot of Space Wolves with JOTW, or other remove from play effects? No problem, Fateweaver let's you re-roll your DTW roll.

As a support unit, he is still very viable.

I don't think he's viable at all. Those are all very minor situational things and require him to be alive, which he won't be with t5 and only a 4++. He's just not worth 300 pts.

"which he won't be with t5 and only a 4++"

Biomancy, Invisibility are a couple of ways to mitigate that. You can easily set him up with T8, or to have a 2+ save that he can re-roll once.
He is also a FMC, so shooting is largely mitigated barring heavy flyers. I can keep him alive just fine.

His powers are far from "minor or situational". I don't think you understand him at all. His shooting can be flat out gross, and you can position him easily where he will do maximum damage with it.
The re-roll can also be game changing.

He is plenty viable and very powerful.

He's really not, you cannot "easily " set him up with t8 because he only gets 1 biomancy power so that's a 1/6 chance to get iron arm. You cannot count on these things for survivability. The more I think about it the more I realize how terrible he is. Also there's no way to get a 2+ that he can reroll that I can see. You have to remember he only gets 1 power from each table and its random.

Sure there is. Invisibility + keep him in ruins or behind an Aegis. 2+ and you re-roll 1's.

So you have Iron Arm, Endurance, Invisibility, and he is a FMC. He has 5W, and doesn't go poof when he fails a LD test.

So I'm planning on running a Bloodthirster as a CSM ally, and planning to load him out thusly:

Two greater gifts, one of which being the blood blade (unless I roll two really good gifts, like... feel no pain 4+, and extra wound or something)
Now, the blood blade is an unwieldy specialist weapon that "gives the bearer the Rampage rule" (+d3 attacks if outnumbered in combat)
So, this pairs with the Axe of Khorne (also a specialist weapon) to give the thirst+1 attack. Then, as I understand it, the bloodblade's rampage rule is active as long as he's just equipped with it, not actually using it.

So, 7 attacks base, +D3 if outnumbered, striking at initiative 9, with instant death on 6's (axe of khone)

A solid interpretation?

 McGibs wrote:
So I'm planning on running a Bloodthirster as a CSM ally, and planning to load him out thusly:

Two greater gifts, one of which being the blood blade (unless I roll two really good gifts, like... feel no pain 4+, and extra wound or something)
Now, the blood blade is an unwieldy specialist weapon that "gives the bearer the Rampage rule" (+d3 attacks if outnumbered in combat)
So, this pairs with the Axe of Khorne (also a specialist weapon) to give the thirst+1 attack. Then, as I understand it, the bloodblade's rampage rule is active as long as he's just equipped with it, not actually using it.

So, 7 attacks base, +D3 if outnumbered, striking at initiative 9, with instant death on 6's (axe of khone)

A solid interpretation?

While RAW that might be fundamentally true, I *feel* as though it is intended to only get the benefits of whichever weapon is currently being used in combat.

New tactic. Take CSM as primary detachment. Huron is warlord. Infiltrate GUO.

Any reason this can't be done?

NamelessBard wrote:
New tactic. Take CSM as primary detachment. Huron is warlord. Infiltrate GUO.

Any reason this can't be done?

You can only infiltrate Infantry units, not MCs.

 Sasori wrote:

NamelessBard wrote:
New tactic. Take CSM as primary detachment. Huron is warlord. Infiltrate GUO.

Any reason this can't be done?

You can only infiltrate Infantry units, not MCs.

Ahhh, right!

Some Dakka members... Evileyes in particular... wanted to know the outcome of a GK VS Daemons game between two tourney level players.

The GK won overall, but it was much much closer than either player thought it would be.

From the game we came away with the following info...

Mobs of Slaaneshi units are best for taking out Terminators. Just flood the board with them, especially Daemonettes. I'm talking hordes of Daemonettes. We saw 20 strong units tear through the GK with consummate ease.

Always give your heralds and unit leaders a magic weapon. The AP2 works wonders.

Don't bother with Greater Daemons, they die in one combat vs GK.

Take the obligatory Plaguebearers to grab objectives.

Nurglings are your friends vs shooting. They make awesome meat shields vs GK shooting.

Gang up on your opponent... 2 vs 1.

On the other side...

Terminators are your friends. Paladins less so due to points cost. The elite level MEQ GK were awesome due to the amount of Psycannons.

The baby carrier was great against the big things but totally rubbish vs the little things.

Take halberds. You need these.

Puscifer wrote:
Some Dakka members... Evileyes in particular... wanted to know the outcome of a GK VS Daemons game between two tourney level players.

The GK won overall, but it was much much closer than either player thought it would be.

From the game we came away with the following info...

Mobs of Slaaneshi units are best for taking out Terminators. Just flood the board with them, especially Daemonettes. I'm talking hordes of Daemonettes. We saw 20 strong units tear through the GK with consummate ease.

Always give your heralds and unit leaders a magic weapon. The AP2 works wonders.

Don't bother with Greater Daemons, they die in one combat vs GK.

Take the obligatory Plaguebearers to grab objectives.

Nurglings are your friends vs shooting. They make awesome meat shields vs GK shooting.

Gang up on your opponent... 2 vs 1.

On the other side...

Terminators are your friends. Paladins less so due to points cost. The elite level MEQ GK were awesome due to the amount of Psycannons.

The baby carrier was great against the big things but totally rubbish vs the little things.

Take halberds. You need these.

Seems to confirm what I've said: unless a GK player tailors his list against Daemons its not gonna be the curb stomp battle most imagine...

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

Puscifer wrote:
Some Dakka members... Evileyes in particular... wanted to know the outcome of a GK VS Daemons game between two tourney level players.

The GK won overall, but it was much much closer than either player thought it would be.

From the game we came away with the following info...

Mobs of Slaaneshi units are best for taking out Terminators. Just flood the board with them, especially Daemonettes. I'm talking hordes of Daemonettes. We saw 20 strong units tear through the GK with consummate ease.

Always give your heralds and unit leaders a magic weapon. The AP2 works wonders.

Don't bother with Greater Daemons, they die in one combat vs GK.

Take the obligatory Plaguebearers to grab objectives.

Nurglings are your friends vs shooting. They make awesome meat shields vs GK shooting.

Gang up on your opponent... 2 vs 1.

On the other side...

Terminators are your friends. Paladins less so due to points cost. The elite level MEQ GK were awesome due to the amount of Psycannons.

The baby carrier was great against the big things but totally rubbish vs the little things.

Take halberds. You need these.

Seems to confirm what I've said: unless a GK player tailors his list against Daemons its not gonna be the curb stomp battle most imagine...

Agreed. Also, I bet the Daemons list hasn't been fully optimized yet, given the amount of time the book has been available.

I think Daemons do have massive weaknesses vs certain armies.

Guard, some GK armies, Tau and Dark Eldar specifically are going to be hard games.

Even matches will come against Nids and possibly Orks.

Elite armies such as Eldar, MEQ and TEQ are going to be better for us.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Daemons list played out its first game against GK and it was in no way tourney standard broken.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I mean competitive not broken.

Puscifer wrote:
I think Daemons do have massive weaknesses vs certain armies.

Guard, some GK armies, Tau and Dark Eldar specifically are going to be hard games.

Even matches will come against Nids and possibly Orks.

Elite armies such as Eldar, MEQ and TEQ are going to be better for us.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Daemons list played out its first game against GK and it was in no way tourney standard broken.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I mean competitive not broken.

I'm not seeing how Tau are going to be trouble for Daemons.

 Sasori wrote:

Puscifer wrote:
I think Daemons do have massive weaknesses vs certain armies.

Guard, some GK armies, Tau and Dark Eldar specifically are going to be hard games.

Even matches will come against Nids and possibly Orks.

Elite armies such as Eldar, MEQ and TEQ are going to be better for us.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Daemons list played out its first game against GK and it was in no way tourney standard broken.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I mean competitive not broken.

I'm not seeing how Tau are going to be trouble for Daemons.

Same here, and while mech/air force guard is gonna be a problem, blob guard will be chumps if you max out on Khorne Cannons.

My bad... put them in the wrong section.

Puscifer wrote:
I think Daemons do have massive weaknesses vs certain armies.

Guard, some GK armies, Tau and Dark Eldar specifically are going to be hard games.

Even matches will come against Nids and possibly Orks.

Elite armies such as Eldar, MEQ and TEQ are going to be better for us.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Daemons list played out its first game against GK and it was in no way tourney standard broken.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I mean competitive not broken.

Dark Eldar Venom Spam is the only real bad matchup at this point.

If the Guard player doesn't cripple the daemon player very early on, he is done. That one is not a bad matchup.

 Generalian wrote:
25% hidden of the FACING of the vehicle from the FIRER = 4+ cover save in ruins or other applicable cover save listed on page 18.

That means that anything shooting at a ground level to the soul grinder will give the cover save, but anything like a flyer or model higher up will ignore it.

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2012/07/40k-vehicles-and-cover-saves-in-6th.html

That article is great when your talking about a nice rectangle block like a rhino.
The soulgrinder not a rectangle.

It's generally quite hard to determine whether 25% of the volume is covered in edge cases for non-boxes.

I think you may want to move the Soulgrinder Topic to YMDC, if you want to continue discussion on it, so we don't clutter this thread with it.

EDIT:


Hmm, it appears that that the Disruptive song on Fiends, stacks per model, instead of per unit like I thought at first. That could be really handy.

Had a little game Saturday with my newly acquired Nurgle allies for my CSM and I must say I really like the book

I teamed up with another Daemon player against Tau and a BA/GK mix, and I must say we performed quite well.

What I liked was a combo of Nurglings accompanying the GUO(for whom I rolled Iron Arm and Warp speed, which was very, very ridiculous ). I found that Nurglings are a good countercharge unit with their mass of poison attacks, or good to eat Overwatch if the GUO should miraculously be low on wounds.

Plague Bearers performed admirably as Objective campers, I even welcomed the deep stiking crisis suit/Dread Knight, as they were curteous enough to be close enough for the defensive grenades to kick in so I didn't even have to go to ground for a 2+ cover save. After the game I realized the GUO had them as well, a really good thing to know against Powerfistsor close range firepower like Meltaguns etc.

What do you guys think is a good delivery system for the GUO, as he is slow as hell on foot?

I was thinking about using 2x10 Plaguebearers with icon/instrument to deep strike and then have the GUO come in automatically without scattering.

Of course he could also simply deepstrike on his own, but I like the Plaguebearers for countercharges/accuracy.

Any further ideas?

 Evileyes wrote:
My Great unclean one, for instance, is taking 2 biomancy powers, and one nurgle power. I could have had 3 biomancy, or 3 nurgle if I wanted though.

This isn't true. A Daemon Psyker can take up to half (rounding up) of his powers from his God's discipline. So a Level 3 GUO can take: 3 book, or 2 book 1 plague, or 1 book 2 plague. You cannot take 3 plague.

 Malthor wrote:
Had a little game Saturday with my newly acquired Nurgle allies for my CSM and I must say I really like the book

I teamed up with another Daemon player against Tau and a BA/GK mix, and I must say we performed quite well.

What I liked was a combo of Nurglings accompanying the GUO(for whom I rolled Iron Arm and Warp speed, which was very, very ridiculous ). I found that Nurglings are a good countercharge unit with their mass of poison attacks, or good to eat Overwatch if the GUO should miraculously be low on wounds.

Plague Bearers performed admirably as Objective campers, I even welcomed the deep stiking crisis suit/Dread Knight, as they were curteous enough to be close enough for the defensive grenades to kick in so I didn't even have to go to ground for a 2+ cover save. After the game I realized the GUO had them as well, a really good thing to know against Powerfistsor close range firepower like Meltaguns etc.

What do you guys think is a good delivery system for the GUO, as he is slow as hell on foot?

I was thinking about using 2x10 Plaguebearers with icon/instrument to deep strike and then have the GUO come in automatically without scattering.

Of course he could also simply deepstrike on his own, but I like the Plaguebearers for countercharges/accuracy.

Any further ideas?

I've been considering this as well. A unit of Plaguedrones with an Icon could be good. 12" move, 2D6 Jetpack move in the Assault Phase. GUO can Deepstrike up to 6" from the Icon. An average of 25" across the board on turn 2.

People are referring to Nurgling poisoned attacks and I can't see where this is stated in the Codex?

 lindsay40k wrote:
People are referring to Nurgling poisoned attacks and I can't see where this is stated in the Codex?

Ha, thanks for pointing this out, since every other Nurgle unit has poison attacks I attributed it automatically to Nurglings

I'm in the "Too early to tell" camp. We'll see.

 Generalian wrote:


The unkillable GUO that is created with biomancy, two greater powers, and the grimore of true names

Grimoire can't target the guy holding it. A model cannot raise its own Invuln.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Generalian wrote:

We measured the model and the Aegis line and then did the math.
The aegis walls (not the raised parts) covers a little more (by almost 3cm) then 25% of the model and is therefore legally giving it cover.

"25%" does not mean, "25% of the total height of the model." It means "25% of the mass of the model." The Soul Grinder is extremely top-heavy. The legs are spindly and only make up about 33% of the total model. That means you'd have to cover about 75% of the legs (all the legs must be completely unseen from the shooter) to gain the Obscured.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Evileyes wrote:
if they shoot at anything through the nurgling's, I get big cover saves

Cover saves are based on True LoS. Nurglings are so short that there's a good chance they won't block anything. Shooting "through" a unit has no meaning in this edition.

Elric Greywolf wrote:

 Generalian wrote:


The unkillable GUO that is created with biomancy, two greater powers, and the grimore of true names

Grimoire can't target the guy holding it. A model cannot raise its own Invuln.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Generalian wrote:

We measured the model and the Aegis line and then did the math.
The aegis walls (not the raised parts) covers a little more (by almost 3cm) then 25% of the model and is therefore legally giving it cover.

"25%" does not mean, "25% of the total height of the model." It means "25% of the mass of the model." The Soul Grinder is extremely top-heavy. The legs are spindly and only make up about 33% of the total model. That means you'd have to cover about 75% of the legs (all the legs must be completely unseen from the shooter) to gain the Obscured.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Evileyes wrote:
if they shoot at anything through the nurgling's, I get big cover saves

Cover saves are based on True LoS. Nurglings are so short that there's a good chance they won't block anything. Shooting "through" a unit has no meaning in this edition.

The new nurgling bases are pretty tall. I can see them giving cover saves.

Samurai_Eduh wrote:

Elric Greywolf wrote:

 Generalian wrote:


The unkillable GUO that is created with biomancy, two greater powers, and the grimore of true names

Grimoire can't target the guy holding it. A model cannot raise its own Invuln.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Generalian wrote:

We measured the model and the Aegis line and then did the math.
The aegis walls (not the raised parts) covers a little more (by almost 3cm) then 25% of the model and is therefore legally giving it cover.

"25%" does not mean, "25% of the total height of the model." It means "25% of the mass of the model." The Soul Grinder is extremely top-heavy. The legs are spindly and only make up about 33% of the total model. That means you'd have to cover about 75% of the legs (all the legs must be completely unseen from the shooter) to gain the Obscured.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Evileyes wrote:
if they shoot at anything through the nurgling's, I get big cover saves

Cover saves are based on True LoS. Nurglings are so short that there's a good chance they won't block anything. Shooting "through" a unit has no meaning in this edition.

The new nurgling bases are pretty tall. I can see them giving cover saves.

BRB, pg 18:

If a target is partially hidden from the firer's view by models from a third unit... It receives a 5+ cover save in the same way ask if it was behind terrain. Similarly, if a model fires through the gaps between models in an intervening unit, the target is in cover, even if it is completely visible to the firer.

 lindsay40k wrote:

BRB, pg 18:

If a target is partially hidden from the firer's view by models from a third unit... It receives a 5+ cover save in the same way ask if it was behind terrain. Similarly, if a model fires through the gaps between models in an intervening unit, the target is in cover, even if it is completely visible to the firer.

That's the way I've always played it and the way I'm sure the writers intended for it to be played.

Puscifer wrote:
I think Daemons do have massive weaknesses vs certain armies.

Guard, some GK armies, Tau and Dark Eldar specifically are going to be hard games.

Even matches will come against Nids and possibly Orks.

Elite armies such as Eldar, MEQ and TEQ are going to be better for us.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Daemons list played out its first game against GK and it was in no way tourney standard broken.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I mean competitive not broken.

I don't think it's nearly as cut and dry with our 'bad/good' match-ups as other armies due to the popularity mono-god or heavily themed lists.

For example, a mono or heavy Slaanesh army will laugh at TEQ's. A similarly themed Tzeentch army will hate seeing TEQ spam. (lack of ap2 outside of characters hurts big time!)

Nurgle will shrug-off most gunlines, especially if they take advantage of chain-summoning off of Plaguedrones w/Icon + Instrument.

Khorne on the other hand eats MEQ's like no tommorow, while Tzeentch can simply drown it in saves from Flamers/Herald-buffed Horrors. (heck, I had just two units of Horrors and 1 Herald wipe-out a Deathwing Command Squad in one shooting phase, while just 3 Flamer templates took out 2 more Termies the next round)


I'd say our good/bad match-ups will depend solely on the overall composition of each individual player's force, unlike how say 'Nids for example know they're pretty boned vs GK's or DE for example.

Samurai_Eduh wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:

BRB, pg 18:

If a target is partially hidden from the firer's view by models from a third unit... It receives a 5+ cover save in the same way ask if it was behind terrain. Similarly, if a model fires through the gaps between models in an intervening unit, the target is in cover, even if it is completely visible to the firer.

That's the way I've always played it and the way I'm sure the writers intended for it to be played.

But largely academic on an army with 5++ universally..

Will help with other Nurgle units with shrouding, but I intend them more as a 'deal with me now, or I'll tie you up in CC until my big gribblies get here to rip face, oh look, while you we're dealing with me they've already got here!' type unit.

Experiment 626 wrote:

Puscifer wrote:
I think Daemons do have massive weaknesses vs certain armies.

Guard, some GK armies, Tau and Dark Eldar specifically are going to be hard games.

Even matches will come against Nids and possibly Orks.

Elite armies such as Eldar, MEQ and TEQ are going to be better for us.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Daemons list played out its first game against GK and it was in no way tourney standard broken.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I mean competitive not broken.

I don't think it's nearly as cut and dry with our 'bad/good' match-ups as other armies due to the popularity mono-god or heavily themed lists.

For example, a mono or heavy Slaanesh army will laugh at TEQ's. A similarly themed Tzeentch army will hate seeing TEQ spam. (lack of ap2 outside of characters hurts big time!)

Nurgle will shrug-off most gunlines, especially if they take advantage of chain-summoning off of Plaguedrones w/Icon + Instrument.

Khorne on the other hand eats MEQ's like no tommorow, while Tzeentch can simply drown it in saves from Flamers/Herald-buffed Horrors. (heck, I had just two units of Horrors and 1 Herald wipe-out a Deathwing Command Squad in one shooting phase, while just 3 Flamer templates took out 2 more Termies the next round)


I'd say our good/bad match-ups will depend solely on the overall composition of each individual player's force, unlike how say 'Nids for example know they're pretty boned vs GK's or DE for example.

I got Daemons tomorrow night with my DW.

Not looking forward to it as I'm outnumbered at least 4-1 and that is 4-1 of effective troops, not 4-1 of just anything.

Hey I just realized something, Daemons of Tzeentch get +3 to their Ld when casting powers, LoCs have a base Ld of 9. Obviously they still peril if they roll 2 or 12, but does this mean the powers still go off if they roll an 11?

Puscifer wrote:
I think Daemons do have massive weaknesses vs certain armies.

Guard, some GK armies, Tau and Dark Eldar specifically are going to be hard games.

Even matches will come against Nids and possibly Orks.

Elite armies such as Eldar, MEQ and TEQ are going to be better for us.

I've only played two games with the new codex so far. One against a vanilla Space Marine army which I won handily, and the onther against my son's Tyranids (Lots of MCs) which I lost horribly. Shadow in the Warp (and Runes of Warding against Eldar) are going to throw a huge wrench in our shooting, now that most of it is Psychic.

In the game against my son, he went first and flew his Flyrants close enough to get my Horror units inside the Shadow of the Warp bubble. With that move he was able to just shut down almost all of my shooting. The only decent ranged weapons I had were a single Soulgrinder and an ADL Quad Gun. I managed to kill a Trygon, but he had done so much damage in the first two turns that the game was unwinnable.

My game against the SM guy was almost the opposite. I got amazing gifts for my DP and LoC, including a ranged S:8 AP:1 Lance attack. I ran over that guy, pretty easily.

Overall my thoughts on this new codex are mixed. I don't mind if the power level goes up or down, that's to be expected. I'm just so very disappointed that the things that attracted me to this army are all gone. It plays like an entirely different army that just happens to use the same models.

Are the swords that heralds and other get Gifts? If so, Dark Excommunication (I think that's what the GK power is called) will suck.

Puscifer wrote:

I got Daemons tomorrow night with my DW.

Not looking forward to it as I'm outnumbered at least 4-1 and that is 4-1 of effective troops, not 4-1 of just anything.

Enjoy!

If you face alot of Slaanesh, you're going to cry.

Anything not heavy/mono Slaanesh should prove a good slug-match unless your dice betray you on your armour saves...
Against my buddy yesterday, I wiped out a full DW command squad with a Herald w/Locus of Conjuration (for S6 shots), 4D6/BS3 shots, 3D6/BS4 shots and finally the auto-2D6/S4 hits from the unit's Blasted Standard...
And that was without Prescience since my Herald decided to brainfart and rolled an 11 for his psychic test!

On the other hand, my buddy's dice caught absolute fire from turn 3 onwards and he failed only 2 or 3 saves for the rest of the game and thus tabled me.

Also be sure to watch-out for every unit champ in a Daemon army now - for only 15pts total we can get Sergeant-equivalents with initiative order ap2 ccw's! (now if only my Herald of Khorne could learn to hit the @$$-end of a Termie Librarian instead of rolling 1's for three rounds and getting fried by the pointy stick! )

Samurai_Eduh wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:

BRB, pg 18:

If a target is partially hidden from the firer's view by models from a third unit... It receives a 5+ cover save in the same way ask if it was behind terrain. Similarly, if a model fires through the gaps between models in an intervening unit, the target is in cover, even if it is completely visible to the firer.

That's the way I've always played it and the way I'm sure the writers intended for it to be played.

However if you fire OVER the model, you are not firing THROUGH the gaps between the models any longer. You dont have an infinitely tall invisible cylinder from each base.

Dito people not understanding the 25% rule for vehicles. It is NOT 25% of the height, but the facing. The vehicle is NOT a solid rectangle, the lower legs are not 25% of the models facing, so the aegis does NOT give cover.

 agnosto wrote:
Are the swords that heralds and other get Gifts? If so, Dark Excommunication (I think that's what the GK power is called) will suck.

They're called Rewards.

Experiment 626 wrote:

Puscifer wrote:

I got Daemons tomorrow night with my DW.

Not looking forward to it as I'm outnumbered at least 4-1 and that is 4-1 of effective troops, not 4-1 of just anything.

Enjoy!

If you face alot of Slaanesh, you're going to cry.

Anything not heavy/mono Slaanesh should prove a good slug-match unless your dice betray you on your armour saves...
Against my buddy yesterday, I wiped out a full DW command squad with a Herald w/Locus of Conjuration (for S6 shots), 4D6/BS3 shots, 3D6/BS4 shots and finally the auto-2D6/S4 hits from the unit's Blasted Standard...
And that was without Prescience since my Herald decided to brainfart and rolled an 11 for his psychic test!

On the other hand, my buddy's dice caught absolute fire from turn 3 onwards and he failed only 2 or 3 saves for the rest of the game and thus tabled me.

Also be sure to watch-out for every unit champ in a Daemon army now - for only 15pts total we can get Sergeant-equivalents with initiative order ap2 ccw's! (now if only my Herald of Khorne could learn to hit the @$$-end of a Termie Librarian instead of rolling 1's for three rounds and getting fried by the pointy stick! )

It's a mix of Slaanesh and Nurgle, 60/40 in favour of Slaanesh.

I'm curious to see what seasoned daemon players think of running a mono khorne. I know that the skull catapult is good, and a lot of people are jumping on board with Flesh hounds with karanak, but what else?

I also notice people complaining that slannesh got hurt, but I really don't see this. To me it looks like Tzeentch and Slannesh got the best of the new book, Nurgle being a very close second.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
people not understanding the 25% rule for vehicles. It is NOT 25% of the height, but the facing. The vehicle is NOT a solid rectangle, the lower legs are not 25% of the models facing, so the aegis does NOT give cover.

From where I'm looking, if one were to take a photograph of a SG from a trooper horizontal POV at any given distance, the legs - even just the foreground pair to satisfy a common sense interpretation of the 'facings' rule - make up a significant part of the vehicle, discounting weapon barrels and decoration per BRBpg73; enough so I can see the taller sections of an Aegis line contributing to the magic 25%.

I'm not keen on SGs and don't have an interest in making them near unkillable, it just seems to me that this trick is legit.

I'm hesitant to say that Tzeentch got the best of it.

I had a really solid Tzeentch list until Saturday morning. Now, with the new Codex, all my shooting can be denied on a 6+, or 5+ against GK, or 4+ against any decent Psyker. Oh, and the shooting that can't be denied? That's on Flamers, who now have AP 4 instead of AP Awesome.

And the Screamers? Instead of 4 S5 AP2 attacks on the charge, I get one??? AUGH! That nerf changed them from vehicle-hunters to light vehicle hunters. There's no way I'm gonna get enough hits against a LR or Monolith to take all 4HP. I MIGHT against AV10. I only have six of them, and now I'm prolly gonna drop that fun unit.

I think one big problem with the Codex is that it has to be so tailored. Depending on what you take, it can kill anything very effectively. But what's an all-comers list going to look like?

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Hey I just realized something, Daemons of Tzeentch get +3 to their Ld when casting powers, LoCs have a base Ld of 9. Obviously they still peril if they roll 2 or 12, but does this mean the powers still go off if they roll an 11?

That's being debated here.