Of what I've understood it means that There are no wolves on Fenris quite literally, as in the 'wolves' on Fenris aren't that but instead are humans overcome by the Canis Helix.
All joking aside, the phrase "There are no wolves on Fenris" is just Magnus trying to be clever - Fenrisian Wolves are genetically unique from Terran Wolves, and therefore shouldn't be classed under the same genus. He's being a great big nerd, basically. Which is why we love him.
Furyou Miko wrote: All joking aside, the phrase "There are no wolves on Fenris" is just Magnus trying to be clever - Fenrisian Wolves are genetically unique from Terran Wolves, and therefore shouldn't be classed under the same genus. He's being a great big nerd, basically. Which is why we love him.
Even actual Space Wolves adhere to the "no wolves on Fenris" thing.
"There were no wolves on Fenris... Until we came."
Furyou Miko wrote: All joking aside, the phrase "There are no wolves on Fenris" is just Magnus trying to be clever - Fenrisian Wolves are genetically unique from Terran Wolves, and therefore shouldn't be classed under the same genus. He's being a great big nerd, basically. Which is why we love him.
Magnus IS clever. In terms of sheer intelligence, he was the most intelligent among the Primarchs. And I wouldn't call him a nerd either; while he certainly seems to have become something of a NEET after his 'ascension', Primarch Magnus was a dedicated warrior as well as a scholar.
That is actually an important distinction between Magnus and his closest brother, Lorgar.
Both viewed themselves as scholars, but while Lorgar did not think of himself as a warrior, Magnus knew full-well he was meant to be one, and was content with that fact.
Void__Dragon wrote: That is actually an important distinction between Magnus and his closest brother, Lorgar.
Both viewed themselves as scholars, but while Lorgar did not think of himself as a warrior, Magnus knew full-well he was meant to be one, and was content with that fact.
Lorgar was a nerd. Magnus was a true scholar-warrior. If only it wasn't for his towering pride and monumentally arrogant belief in his own mastery over the Warp (he should have focused on psionic mastery rather than unlocking the forbidden secrets of sorcery), Magnus along with Sanguinius would easily have counted as a perfect Primarch. Perfect as in he was everything the Emperor meant for him to be.
Void__Dragon wrote: That is actually an important distinction between Magnus and his closest brother, Lorgar.
Both viewed themselves as scholars, but while Lorgar did not think of himself as a warrior, Magnus knew full-well he was meant to be one, and was content with that fact.
Lorgar was a nerd. Magnus was a true scholar-warrior. If only it wasn't for his towering pride and monumentally arrogant belief in his own mastery over the Warp (he should have focused on psionic mastery rather than unlocking the forbidden secrets of sorcery), Magnus along with Sanguinius would easily have counted as a perfect Primarch. Perfect as in he was everything the Emperor meant for him to be.
BIG FAT NO
...Sanguinius was a mutant, and Magnus was Magnus because of Tzeench (knowlege for an eye, tyvm), but Magnus looked like the Emprah in a spirit way IIRC ...
Fulgrim was perfect physicaly, while Lorgar had the Emprah looks, Horus was the angel boy x 128 (before corruption)....point is, every primarch had emprah part of personality IMHO....
Funny how some people are comparing primarchs with the Emprah when we know 0 about the Empy's personality....
On topic my theory is like Magnus said - the wolves are the first colonists geneticaly modified (later mutated) to endure the harsh conditions of the planet...
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Furyou Miko wrote: ... The Emperor intended Magnus to be a freaking battery. Some great destiny that was.
Yeah, that deamon (just before Prospero burned) was teasing him about that....scholar my arse, battery is the life for you my son...
From the existence of the Imperial Truth, his plans for Magnus and the throne, and the way he acted in regards to Angron's friends, we know that the Emperor was either a complete moron when it came to interpersonal relationships or a Nietzschean schemer who put aside his emotions for the great plan.
From the existence of the Imperial Truth, his plans for Magnus and the throne, and the way he acted in regards to Angron's friends, we know that the Emperor was either a complete moron when it came to interpersonal relationships or a Nietzschean schemer who put aside his emotions for the great plan.
But there are to many "if", and the motives of the Emp are rather unknown (primarch role)...
I say everyone of them were tools, which would be discarded after they served their use...
Furyou Miko wrote: ... The Emperor intended Magnus to be a freaking battery. Some great destiny that was.
It was implied that apart from the Emperor, Magnus was the only one could use the Golden Throne without getting killed in the process. In any case, the Golden Throne was a stop-gap measure as the Imperium could not replicate the construction materials of the Webway. Once they could, the Golden Throne would become unnecessary.
Yeah, that deamon (just before Prospero burned) was teasing him about that....scholar my arse, battery is the life for you my son...
You would believe the words of Daemons? It's ironic that the traitors fought to prevent the visions they were shown from happening, yet their actions ultimately brought those same visions to fruition.
Living battery is a well known fact in 40k...I think Magnus wouldn't be thrilled with that role...
If Tzeench just let him play that role, he would gain much more....
DarthMarko wrote: Living battery is a well known fact in 40k...I think Magnus wouldn't be thrilled with that role...
If Tzeench just let him play that role, he would gain much more....
Eh, not really. The Astronomican originally did not require psykers to be fed into it; the Emperor actually powered and focused it at first. When he switched his attentions to the Imperial Webway Project, he continued to focus it, but accepted a solution put forward by Malcador regarding how to continue powering the Astronomican when the Emperor needed to maintain the psychic barriers around the incomplete, Human-built sections of the Webway: to use sacrificial psykers to power the beacon. The Emperor though made it clear that this would only be temporary; he intended to power the Astronomican himself once he entrusted the Imperial Webway to Magnus. Which would also have been temporary; once Imperial understanding of the Webway had made the Golden Throne redundant, Magnus would be free to return to the front lines.
Living battery. Long live Manchu for that theory. Hehe.
Empy or Magnus being alive and getting nutrition the normal way wouldn't need psykers getting fed to them. WH30k is different from WH40k as 30k had hope, while 40k is a rather hopeless and dark place where only hardline determination, superstition and a dogged belief in Empy can save a mortal man.
Arguably, the Hope in 30k was a manufactured thing - it depended entirely on the Emperor's survival, and the fact that he assumed that his survival was guaranteed rather than even trusting twenty other demigods with the whole plan is probably the reason it all failed.
Can you imagine? A 40k where the Primarchs knew the whole truth instead of the half-truths and lies the Emperor actually gave them?
Arguably, the Hope in 30k was a manufactured thing - it depended entirely on the Emperor's survival, and the fact that he assumed that his survival was guaranteed rather than even trusting twenty other demigods with the whole plan is probably the reason it all failed.
Can you imagine? A 40k where the Primarchs knew the whole truth instead of the half-truths and lies the Emperor actually gave them?
Oh yes, I can imagine all right. Red banners wave and golden eagles fly. Order. Salvation from Chaos. A new dawn for Mankind across the stars.
Though I imagine Melissa and other die-hard Ecclesiarchy individuals would be raging over the progressive, rational, and trans-Human mindset of the Imperium. I mean, even if is the Council of Terra that governs the Imperium, the ultimate orientation of the Imperium won't be to maintain the status quo, but to push forward Human progress...including evolutionary progress. And that means bringing the Emperor's dream of Mankind replacing the Eldar as the dominant psychic species in the galaxy to completion.
In that situation, at the top of the Imperial Hierarchy is the Emperor (well duh). Below him are the Council of Terra and the Warmaster; technically they would be equals, but the Council has priority as it actually governs the Imperium via the Imperial Administration. An exception would be military situations, during which the Imperial Administration's and even the Council's authority are superseded by the Warmaster and his subordinates. It would be composed of the Lord of the Imperial Administration, the Fabricator-General of Mars, the Captain-General of the Custodians (representing the Emperor), and scions of the great aristocratic dynasties of the Segmentum Solar. The Navigator Houses and the Astropaths would have seats in the beginning...but would ultimately lose them as the Imperial Webway Project is completed and the Eldar Webway is explored and brought under Imperial control. On the other hand, the Warmaster would directly oversee all military matters, commanding his fellow Primarchs and the Lord Commanders of the Imperial Army.
The hope was there nevertheless. Back then there were no need for the extreme indoctrination of the present setting. And why shall Melissia and the other fans of the Ecclechiarchy rant over what was once?
I like the present setting, it's perfect and dark. A dying empire still with some cest of life left. That's the attraction of WH40k, if I want something more lighter and brighter I go for something else like Smallville or Charmed as frankly WH30k is dull and uninteresting for me.
30k was almost nothing but indoctrination. The Emperor mindraped everyone into believing the stupid as hell gak he spoused, and had remembrancers peddle the most brainwashing, illogical garbage you could imagine.
Just read that speech in the first book from that old remembrancer.
We seem to be getting a little off track here. What he means by "there are no wolves on fenris" is that "there are NO wolves on fenris". That means before humanity colonised the planet, wolves or the equivalent native wolf analogue xenoform did not exist natively living on fenris. All wolves were brought to the planet by colonising humans, who extensively genetically modified normal terran wolves to survive the harsh fenrisian conditions.
So what it really means is "there are no NATIVE wolves on fenris"
I took the quote by Magnus to mean Space Wolves, and one spoken by a man supreme in his belief that he had drawn all the Space Wolves away from Fenris. He was wrong of course.
As for WH30k, of course it was indoctrination, but a different and more free one. It's more akin to the present era than the darkness of WH40k.
Why do people talk about that quote like Magnus is the only one to say it, lol?
Magnus said it because he's a huge nerd, as a previous poster said, but the Space Wolves themselves acknowledge that there were no wolves on Fenris... Before they were there.
All Fenrisian wolves were formerly human, in some capacity.
Therefore, the Space Wolves ride around on eachother's backs.
There were terran wolves before Fenris thing so NO...And only Magnus said that theory about colonists (which was a THEORY. not a fact)..
Also SW who fail the test, become Wulfen, not regular rhino siezed wolves...
Also even if that theory is true, SW ride the colonists who mutated long time ago and not their battle brothers...but since this comment is from @Void (SW lover) it is fully ignored, printed and used for the toilet paper...
You know, I've noticed something incredibly hypocritical about the Space Wolves. They revile the Thousand Sons for the flesh-change, and yet...what's so different between the flesh-change and the curse of the wulfen? Or for that matter, riding giant wolves that used to be Human?
Genetic flaw is a genetic flaw...Flesh change is postponed by Magnus and Tzeench contract while SW suffer their curse....I don't see your point @Valerian...
DarthMarko wrote: There were terran wolves before Fenris thing so NO...And only Magnus said that theory about colonists (which was a THEORY. not a fact)..
Also SW who fail the test, become Wulfen, not regular rhino siezed wolves...
Also even if that theory is true, SW ride the colonists who mutated long time ago and not their battle brothers...but since this comment is from @Void (SW lover) it is fully ignored, printed and used for the toilet paper...
Even the Wolves admit the wolves are not natural my good sir.
The Space Wolves are big hairy man, who ride on top of bigger, hairier men.
DarthMarko wrote: There were terran wolves before Fenris thing so NO...And only Magnus said that theory about colonists (which was a THEORY. not a fact)..
Also SW who fail the test, become Wulfen, not regular rhino siezed wolves...
Also even if that theory is true, SW ride the colonists who mutated long time ago and not their battle brothers...but since this comment is from @Void (SW lover) it is fully ignored, printed and used for the toilet paper...
Even the Wolves admit the wolves are not natural my good sir.
The Space Wolves are big hairy man, who ride on top of bigger, hairier men.
I thought it was meant to be a metaphor, as in there were no 'wolves' as in truly cunning creatures on Fenris until the space wolves came along. It's supposed to make the space wolves sound like they are the true wolves of Fenris etc. At least that's what I get from it.
Jihadnik wrote: I thought it was meant to be a metaphor, as in there were no 'wolves' as in truly cunning creatures on Fenris until the space wolves came along. It's supposed to make the space wolves sound like they are the true wolves of Fenris etc. At least that's what I get from it.
This is one of the theories, I guess GW will never explain that...
But there are "Wolves" on Fenris then, they only carry Bolters and kick the TS from time to time:-)
Beaviz81 wrote: I don't buy it either. I mean wolves who once were men? It's too far a stretch even for 40k.
Are you serious?
I mean, you have more trouble believing something as basic as werewolves in a fictional universe, than you do, say, hundred meter tall walking cathedrals that raze cities, or zealot battle nuns who stop lascannon fire with their faith, or nipple-armour wearing space vampires, or anything Draigo does?
Ragnar Blackmane also uses Magnus as target-practice with his spear. A much more humiliating fate than even Empy had planned for him.
Magnus materializes on Fenris. "Mohahaha I'm back time to-...Oh-oh." Magnus sees Ragnar Blackmane with a spear. "Die demon!" Then Ragnar tosses the spear hitting Magnus squarely in the eye.
Beaviz81 wrote: I don't buy it either. I mean wolves who once were men? It's too far a stretch even for 40k.
Are you serious?
I mean, you have more trouble believing something as basic as werewolves in a fictional universe, than you do, say, hundred meter tall walking cathedrals that raze cities, or zealot battle nuns who stop lascannon fire with their faith, or nipple-armour wearing space vampires, or anything Draigo does?
Or Orks.
I mean.
Come on, lol.
That's how incredible your claim is Void. I'm basically thinking you are high on somethink to come up with this.
Without having ever read that wolves quote in context, for me it always sounded to me like a reference to the "space doggies" thing. I mean, even if you don't diss the space wolves as the emperor's dogs, they are more something like the shepherd's dogs of humanity.
Man, I liked the space viking theme much more. I blame White Wolf for it. But at least git of fenris don't sparkle in the sun.
DarthMarko wrote: Genetic flaw is a genetic flaw...Flesh change is postponed by Magnus and Tzeench contract while SW suffer their curse....I don't see your point @Valerian...
Beaviz81 wrote: That's how incredible your claim is Void. I'm basically thinking you are high on somethink to come up with this.
So I take it you have not read A Thousand Sons or Prospero Burns?
Also, the Space Wolf novels suck.
You seriously think humans mutated into wolves on Fenris? That's a stretch even for 40k. You should see reason there (I mean do you know how genetically impossible this is, we can't even get children with chimps, much less wolves).
DarthMarko wrote: Genetic flaw is a genetic flaw...Flesh change is postponed by Magnus and Tzeench contract while SW suffer their curse....I don't see your point @Valerian...
Beaviz81 wrote: That's how incredible your claim is Void. I'm basically thinking you are high on somethink to come up with this.
So I take it you have not read A Thousand Sons or Prospero Burns?
Also, the Space Wolf novels suck.
You seriously think humans mutated into wolves on Fenris? That's a stretch even for 40k. You should see reason there (I mean do you know how genetically impossible this is, we can't even get children with chimps, much less wolves).
His biggest counter argument is SW novels suck (because they kick Magnus so hard every time)...So I suggest you end your discussion there, in a civil manner...
His biggest counter argument is SW novels suck (because they kick Magnus so hard every time)...So I suggest you end your discussion there, in a civil manner...
I hate to say this, but Space Wolves really do suck. Or rather, the Vikings in SPAAACE!!! theme sucks. Its worse than ultrasmurfs, space egyptians, or Khornate Knights.
It was a throwaway comment the author never backed up and probably used it because it sounded cool and mysterious...
If it means anything it probably meant that the wolves on Fenris are altered in some fashion.
His biggest counter argument is SW novels suck (because they kick Magnus so hard every time)...So I suggest you end your discussion there, in a civil manner...
I hate to say this, but Space Wolves really do suck. Or rather, the Vikings in SPAAACE!!! theme sucks. Its worse than ultrasmurfs, space egyptians, or Khornate Knights.
His biggest counter argument is SW novels suck (because they kick Magnus so hard every time)...So I suggest you end your discussion there, in a civil manner...
I hate to say this, but Space Wolves really do suck. Or rather, the Vikings in SPAAACE!!! theme sucks. Its worse than ultrasmurfs, space egyptians, or Khornate Knights.
I see you change your mind often..so cheers
You misunderstand. Vikings in SPAAACE!!! suck. Apart from that...the Space Wolves are fine.
Beaviz81 wrote: That's how incredible your claim is Void. I'm basically thinking you are high on somethink to come up with this.
So I take it you have not read A Thousand Sons or Prospero Burns?
Also, the Space Wolf novels suck.
You seriously think humans mutated into wolves on Fenris? That's a stretch even for 40k. You should see reason there (I mean do you know how genetically impossible this is, we can't even get children with chimps, much less wolves).
They are referring to the Canis Helix which turns Aspirants of the SWs into Wulfen if they are not able to control the change they are undergoing. The assumption is now that those Wulfen do not just stay at the state of a half-wolf-half-men-being we saw in the 13th Company but rather slowly transform into full wolves and as the Aspirants are abandoned on some random point on Fenris and have to find back to the Fang, those Wulfen are the actual source of all the wolves on Fenris.
His biggest counter argument is SW novels suck (because they kick Magnus so hard every time)...So I suggest you end your discussion there, in a civil manner...
I hate to say this, but Space Wolves really do suck. Or rather, the Vikings in SPAAACE!!! theme sucks. Its worse than ultrasmurfs, space egyptians, or Khornate Knights.
I see you change your mind often..so cheers
You misunderstand. Vikings in SPAAACE!!! suck. Apart from that...the Space Wolves are fine.
Friend - Vamps, Romans, Egyptians and Egyptian terminators, Mission Impossible marines,Batmans, gladiators,hooligans, gay poets,space nuns are ok ?
Beaviz81 wrote: That's how incredible your claim is Void. I'm basically thinking you are high on somethink to come up with this.
So I take it you have not read A Thousand Sons or Prospero Burns?
Also, the Space Wolf novels suck.
You seriously think humans mutated into wolves on Fenris? That's a stretch even for 40k. You should see reason there (I mean do you know how genetically impossible this is, we can't even get children with chimps, much less wolves).
They are referring to the Canis Helix which turns Aspirants of the SWs into Wulfen if they are not able to control the change they are undergoing. The assumption is now that those Wulfen do not just stay at the state of a half-wolf-half-men-being we saw in the 13th Company but rather slowly transform into full wolves and as the Aspirants are abandoned on some random point on Fenris and have to find back to the Fang, those Wulfen are the actual source of all the wolves on Fenris.
Could you point me to the canix helix stages ? I mean the source from which you made that assumption...
Okay. That is even more worrisome than the mere thought that the Wulfen becomes wolves. Because that means that half of the Wulfen changes gender. Or the Wulfen rapes human females to produce wolves. Both are equally squicky for me.
His biggest counter argument is SW novels suck (because they kick Magnus so hard every time)...So I suggest you end your discussion there, in a civil manner...
I hate to say this, but Space Wolves really do suck. Or rather, the Vikings in SPAAACE!!! theme sucks. Its worse than ultrasmurfs, space egyptians, or Khornate Knights.
I see you change your mind often..so cheers
You misunderstand. Vikings in SPAAACE!!! suck. Apart from that...the Space Wolves are fine.
Friend - Vamps, Romans, Egyptians and Egyptian terminators, Mission Impossible marines,Batmans, gladiators,hooligans, gay poets,space nuns are ok ?
Blood Angels, Thousand Sons, and the Raven Guard don't overdo it. You don't see Magnus or his Sons walking around with wigs and false beards, do you? Or Sanguinius and the Blood Angels sleeping in coffins (except during initiation) or wearing capes with exaggerated collars. Night Lords are a bit over the top though, and the World Eaters are even worse along with the Emperor's Children.
And I hate anything related to the Ecclesiarchy. Space Wolves/Khornate Knights blowing up Ecclesiarchy ships and killing bolter bitches are definitely things I can stand behind.
Beaviz81 wrote: Okay. That is even more worrisome than the mere thought that the Wulfen becomes wolves. Because that means that half of the Wulfen changes gender. Or the Wulfen rapes human females to produce wolves. Both are equally squicky for me.
Beaviz81 wrote: Okay. That is even more worrisome than the mere thought that the Wulfen becomes wolves. Because that means that half of the Wulfen changes gender. Or the Wulfen rapes human females to produce wolves. Both are equally squicky for me.
Yep, ignore the whole reproduction process...Russ was found by a giant Fenrisian she-wolf IIRC...Also Wulfen who can't be tamed are put down IIRC...or not....hell now my mind is blown...
BA don't overdo it ? Sleeping in coffins, drinking blood and don't forget the nipple armor?
TS? OMG?
Beaviz81 wrote: Okay. That is even more worrisome than the mere thought that the Wulfen becomes wolves. Because that means that half of the Wulfen changes gender. Or the Wulfen rapes human females to produce wolves. Both are equally squicky for me.
Yep, ignore the whole reproduction process...Russ was found by a giant Fenrisian she-wolf IIRC...Also Wulfen who can't be tamed are put down IIRC...or not....hell now my mind is blown...
DarthMarko wrote: Could you point me to the canix helix stages ? I mean the source from which you made that assumption...
There is no source for this, if there were one there would be no discussion as the case would be clear. It's just implied by Magnus and Sindermann that it works that way and as the SWs in Prospero Burns stated them self that they are the only wolves on Fenris, where did the Thunderwolves they ride today come from?
purplefood wrote: It was a throwaway comment the author never backed up and probably used it because it sounded cool and mysterious...
If it means anything it probably meant that the wolves on Fenris are altered in some fashion.
DarthMarko wrote: Could you point me to the canix helix stages ? I mean the source from which you made that assumption...
There is no source for this, if there were one there would be no discussion as the case would be clear. It's just implied by Magnus and Sindermann that it works that way and as the SWs in Prospero Burns stated them self that they are the only wolves on Fenris, where did the Thunderwolves they ride today come from?
That's the point of the thread...GW give you teasers (like the missing legions and the OP's), so we can make assumptions (which are full of holes)....
Like I said, there are a few theories and every one is full of holes....no offense
purplefood wrote: It was a throwaway comment the author never backed up and probably used it because it sounded cool and mysterious...
If it means anything it probably meant that the wolves on Fenris are altered in some fashion.
Simple and awesome answer.../thread
@PredaKhaine I always wanted to know, how do you have a EU flag in your sig?
Beaviz81 wrote: You seriously think humans mutated into wolves on Fenris? That's a stretch even for 40k. You should see reason there (I mean do you know how genetically impossible this is, we can't even get children with chimps, much less wolves).
I seriously think your skepticism concerning it is frankly arbitrary, considering that 40k does not and has never adhered to physics or biology. Please do not insult me by suggesting I believe something like this is possible IRL, in 40k, you have humans that involved into rodent people. And the beastmen. And then there are mutants that become something truly bizarre and alien.
No, I don't find the concept of people with a genetic defect becoming wolves in 40k ridiculous.
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DarthMarko wrote: His biggest counter argument is SW novels suck (because they kick Magnus so hard every time)...So I suggest you end your discussion there, in a civil manner...
Well no, my biggest counter argument is that the Space Wolves outright state there were no wolves before they were there. "They" could mean Fenrisians or the Space Wolves, I assume the former because it fits into previously established canon best.
Please refrain from insulting me in the future Marko. Also, I'll note that you bashed Magnus and friends (When I didn't even mention him) first.
I'll actually go ahead and admit that my interpretation may not be 100% the truth, but please do me a favor and stop going into threads acting like I have this huge vendetta against the Space Wolves.
I enjoy and embrace all the homoeroticism of the Space Marines, not just Space Wolves riding on top of eachother. feth, I recently made fun of Magnus forcing his sons to give him a sponge bath in the misogyny thread, and no one is as bad about their homoeroticism as the Emperor's Children.
One thing is to mutate, but to change species? That's even out of the league of 40 in my opinion. I understand the rule of funny often being the rule of 40k, but not in this case, it's too ludicrous for me to accept men becoming wolves and on the way changing genders like some frogs.
@Void - Sorry mate, didn't wanna do that, apologies....But your theory about brothers riding brothers is so wrong in 100000 way's + SW novels are very early work and lot of us started our reading there ....or to sum it up:
- she wolf raised Russ with some puppies (Freki and Geri), so there are female wolves
- Magnus said his theory
- Wulfen are failed aspirants, stages of degradation are unknown
- only known fact is that the helix protects them from the warp (great 13 Co)
Beaviz81 wrote: One thing is to mutate, but to change species? That's even out of the league of 40 in my opinion. I understand the rule of funny often being the rule of 40k, but not in this case, it's too ludicrous for me to accept men becoming wolves and on the way changing genders like some frogs.
Why should they change genders? You are the only one who assumes that the wolves are able to reproduce on their own.
DarthMarko wrote: - she wolf raised Russ with some puppies (Freki and Geri), so there are female wolves
When was this stated for the last time? I just did a quick research about it and the only quotation I found for this is from a 13 year old WD, probably it is getting retconned right now.
I'd just like to point out (since my previous statement about the literal meaning of the phrase has been passed over since the initial agreement) that the phrase is "There are no Wolves on Fenris." Not "There were no Wolves on Fenris."
There are monsters on Fenris that bear superficial resemblance to Terran wolves. The colonists named them Wolves. However, Fenrisian Wolves are two or three times the size of Terran wolves, have a significantly different skeletal structure and completely different faces.
"There are no wolves on Fenris." means just that - there is nothing on Fenris that is genetically compatible (IE: capable of breeding with) a Terran Lupus or Canis. It's more a statement about wilful ignorance and naming things properly than it is a comment on the Space Wolves. Really, they're quite incidental to the whole thing.
When Ahriman reminds his friend near the start of A Thousand Sons that "There are no wolves on Fenris", he's rebuking him for using a slang term instead of something's proper name.
DarthMarko wrote: What IF they are a xenos creature that looks very much like a wolf, but are natural to fenris, rather than being a genuine "terran" wolf ?
That would be most likely the case. Why should the colonists take wolves with them to a new planet? ...I mean, wolves, really?!
Much more likely, and Fenris is the ultimate wolf. He even devours Odin according to the comic Valhalla and Norse legends. As for the wolf rearing Russ, does Roman history sound familiar to you?
You seriously think humans mutated into wolves on Fenris? That's a stretch even for 40k. You should see reason there (I mean do you know how genetically impossible this is, we can't even get children with chimps, much less wolves).
No, what happened is wwaayy back when they first found and tried to settle on Fenris -- well prior to the dark age of technology -- that the planet was so dangerous that normal humans couldn't survive. So as humanity was at its apex technology wise they took genetic samples from the fauna that were on the planet and introduced them into the human genetic structure.
In affect they were trying to create superhumans to survive on the planet.
When you add in the Canis helix during the attempt to "upgrade" a man to an Astartes this can have the affect of changing them further than was intended and then they turn into wolfen.
This is something of a broad term that covers a wide range of "types" from the hairy wolfman type that is still more or less humanoid all the way to the full on rhino sized ones.
Admiral Valerian wrote: You know, I've noticed something incredibly hypocritical about the Space Wolves. They revile the Thousand Sons for the flesh-change, and yet...what's so different between the flesh-change and the curse of the wulfen? Or for that matter, riding giant wolves that used to be Human?
Heres the difference....
Flesh Change = No control of their body, they kill everyone in their path.
Curse of the Wulfen= Still have somewhat of a control over their body, they don't kill allies, only their enemies.
Thats a pretty big difference. I have yet to read a excerpt where a wulfen went on a killing rampage and killed all of his allies. In thousand sons the book, the flesh changed sons were killing everything and everyone in their path. They had no control. And they didn't care who they killed.
Curse of the Wulfen= Still have somewhat of a control over their body, they don't kill allies, only their enemies.
Thats a pretty big difference. I have yet to read a excerpt where a wulfen went on a killing rampage and killed all of his allies. .
The audiobook Thunder on Fenris springs to mind. As do the older space wolf novels - look up Mikel Sternmark (iirc).
Also look up what happened to the wolf brothers in 'Battle for the Fang'
Curse of the Wulfen= Still have somewhat of a control over their body, they don't kill allies, only their enemies.
Thats a pretty big difference. I have yet to read a excerpt where a wulfen went on a killing rampage and killed all of his allies. .
The audiobook Thunder on Fenris springs to mind. As do the older space wolf novels - look up Mikel Sternmark (iirc).
Also look up what happened to the wolf brothers in 'Battle for the Fang'
They are all cases of wolfen munching allies.
Ah those ones.
Yes. I read them. The Wolf brothers were unstable due to investigation by the thousand sons who corrupted the wolf brothers, and the wolf brothers were driven insane. So yeah.... That shoots down that theory.
Oh well. I think the main difference is what is more dangeorus? A wild animal with primal but insane strength? Or a wild animal with the ability to destroy you just by looking at you?
The wolves canis gene helix is given as the reason that the 13th company has managed to stay fighting chaos in the EOT for however many years - it doesn't 'chaos up' very easily.
Thunder from fenris has the wulfen fighting against the demon in that and ignoring his ex comrades during the fight.
You seriously think humans mutated into wolves on Fenris? That's a stretch even for 40k. You should see reason there (I mean do you know how genetically impossible this is, we can't even get children with chimps, much less wolves).
No, what happened is wwaayy back when they first found and tried to settle on Fenris -- well prior to the dark age of technology -- that the planet was so dangerous that normal humans couldn't survive. So as humanity was at its apex technology wise they took genetic samples from the fauna that were on the planet and introduced them into the human genetic structure.
In affect they were trying to create superhumans to survive on the planet.
When you add in the Canis helix during the attempt to "upgrade" a man to an Astartes this can have the affect of changing them further than was intended and then they turn into wolfen.
This is something of a broad term that covers a wide range of "types" from the hairy wolfman type that is still more or less humanoid all the way to the full on rhino sized ones.
Do you have any proof of this? It sounds plausible enough but proof would be fine.
er.. If you read the Prospero duology carefully it tells you that.
There's a few nods/hints in "Deliverance Lost " too.
Plus he's clarified what he did ( and didn't.....) mean at various Bl events, including the recent BL Live! earlier this month. Him and Mr. Wraight gave a pretty interesting seminar about the sons of Fenris.
.. a clever man might also have a wee look at the Dr. Who novel he wrote
i don't think i took any acid today but......after just finishing all the HH to date, ive always(from the begininng) be under the impression that the wolves were once in fact space wolves
I'm surprised and amazed that people actually think the Space Wolves turns into another species. That is just "Huh?" for me. I know the place is strange, but men turning into wolves strange? That has me halting. Mutation where you develop traits of animals maybe even can speak to them is okay. But you turning into a wolf sounds like something I saw in Charmed where Prue turned into a male dog once, and is out of this world as she is a witch and Space Wolves ain't too happy about psykers not from Fenris.
DarthMarko wrote: @Pwn - Which 100% contradicts the fact that there were terran SW , and Russ who was raised by the wolves (without SW present on Fenris)..So NO....
Ahhh yes Russ was raised by wolves,i guess when i read the little teasers about them possibly once being SW i just kinda had thatstuck in my head since it was so out there, i kinda liked the idea actually but reading over this thread, it makes much less sense
reds8n wrote: er.. If you read the Prospero duology carefully it tells you that.
There's a few nods/hints in "Deliverance Lost " too.
Plus he's clarified what he did ( and didn't.....) mean at various Bl events, including the recent BL Live! earlier this month. Him and Mr. Wraight gave a pretty interesting seminar about the sons of Fenris.
.. a clever man might also have a wee look at the Dr. Who novel he wrote
I'll just point out that A Thousand Sons, which first uttered this phrase, was written by Graham McNeill.
I know he works together with Abnett concerning this very topic, but it's weird how often people think Abnett wrote both Prospero Burns and A Thousand Sons.
Beaviz81 wrote: I'm surprised and amazed that people actually think the Space Wolves turns into another species. That is just "Huh?" for me. I know the place is strange, but men turning into wolves strange? That has me halting. Mutation where you develop traits of animals maybe even can speak to them is okay. But you turning into a wolf sounds like something I saw in Charmed where Prue turned into a male dog once, and is out of this world as she is a witch and Space Wolves ain't too happy about psykers not from Fenris.
No, as had been said, they don't turn into wolves .. because in fact there are no wolves on Fenris.
You seem to think it's a transmogrification akin to Dracula turning into a bat or something, when if anything its closer to them"hulking" out, onlt without a chance to turn back.
.. well, until there's a good story to be told which requires someone to do so of course.
It's really not that different from the process that turns them from human into Astartes, which might as well be a different species in comparison.
I'll just point out that A Thousand Sons, which first uttered this phrase, was written by Graham McNeill.
I know he works together with Abnett concerning this very topic, but it's weird how often people think Abnett wrote both Prospero Burns and A Thousand Sons.
You think that's odd, I keep getting them the wrong way round and thinking Abnett wrote Thousand Sons and McNeil wrote Prospero Burns.
Probably because A Thousand Sons was so much better than Prospero Burns. ><
Beaviz81 wrote: I'm surprised and amazed that people actually think the Space Wolves turns into another species. That is just "Huh?" for me. I know the place is strange, but men turning into wolves strange? That has me halting. Mutation where you develop traits of animals maybe even can speak to them is okay. But you turning into a wolf sounds like something I saw in Charmed where Prue turned into a male dog once, and is out of this world as she is a witch and Space Wolves ain't too happy about psykers not from Fenris.
No, as had been said, they don't turn into wolves .. because in fact there are no wolves on Fenris.
You seem to think it's a transmogrification akin to Dracula turning into a bat or something, when if anything its closer to them"hulking" out, onlt without a chance to turn back.
.. well, until there's a good story to be told which requires someone to do so of course.
It's really not that different from the process that turns them from human into Astartes, which might as well be a different species in comparison.
Actually I was kind of thinking like Baldur's Gate II. There I could for unknown reason render Jaheira from a competent fighter to a totally worthless one by turning her into a wolf or a black bear, she could be turned into a brown bear as well, which was useful once (when she had to fight naked against another druid). And Astartes turning into wolves is something I refuse to buy. A wolf is a wolf, a human is a human. It would be like me morphing for unknown reasons into a boar and be charged with electricity in the progress. It makes that much sense.
Here is my take on it:
You can take the expression figuratively: Fenrisians are honest and noble bloodthirsty barbarians. There is no deception or betrayal in what they do. When Fenrisian tribes engage in genocide, it is called a murdermake, not nation-building.
Or you could interpret it to mean that the Canis Helix, which was developed by Dark Age colonists (in order to colonize an ice death world whose surface means death in seconds to ordinary humans) even causes mutations in the human populace, therefore the wolves on Fenris are people. It's PEOPLE!! In the books, Magnus, some high-ranking Space Wolves, and I think even Malcador alluded to the latter of these.
I think that the expression began in the fluff as the former. Despite the Administratum and Ecclisiarchy's incompetence and betrayal, Fenris has stayed true to it's mission. Fenris could care less what the High Lords of Terra are up to, it would keep on keeping on. This mystical combination of legend and tradition between the tribes and the skywarriors keeps Fenris loyal. Future Foundings of the Space Wolves have failed because they lacked pieces of this knotwork.
Beaviz81 wrote: That's how incredible your claim is Void. I'm basically thinking you are high on somethink to come up with this.
So I take it you have not read A Thousand Sons or Prospero Burns?
Also, the Space Wolf novels suck.
You seriously think humans mutated into wolves on Fenris? That's a stretch even for 40k. You should see reason there (I mean do you know how genetically impossible this is, we can't even get children with chimps, much less wolves).
Impossible with current science? Sure, but in principle? Not that far-fetched honestly. We're talking about a society that's capable of engineering organs -entirely new organs with no existing analogue in human physiology- from scratch, who can grow people in tubes, and can create synthetic compounds far in advance of modern drugs. Even today there are strong, well-founded hypotheses regarding ways to introduce foreign modified genetic material into living cells that exist as part of a functional organism like a human being; horizontal gene transfer using plasmids, introduction of modified chromosomal DNA using synthetic viral vectors and so forth. Considering the massive amount of cellular reengineering that goes on as part of the transformation of man into Space Marine, it wouldn't take much at all for one of those processes to go out of control and make the lupine DNA that's part of the Space Wolves' particular genetic cocktail far more dominant in the final result than was intended.
I actually rather like the implications such an interpretation of the "no wolves" statement; that the Wulfen are not a curse at all, but an intended result of the Emperor's genetic template for the Wolves, a sort of "immune response" against Chaos(as demonstrated by the 13th Co.), while the true flaw in their genome is the possibility they'll suffer a sort of genetic autoimmune disease where the Canis Helix attacks and replaces their human DNA to such a degree that they transform into barely-sentient wolf-like beasts with no hope of turning back.
Yes it's that farfetched the examples I have used are proof of that. Mutations lets you grow extra hair or arms, they don't transfer you into another species. The lupine DNA goes out of control in some of the Space Wolves resulting in the Wulfen. That's basically a gang of werewolves, it does not transfer you from man to wolf. Such thoughts are simply ludicrous. I understand sci-fi, but please have some science in the mix instead of going by the rule of fun.
routmord wrote: Here is my take on it:
You can take the expression figuratively: Fenrisians are honest and noble bloodthirsty barbarians. There is no deception or betrayal in what they do. When Fenrisian tribes engage in genocide, it is called a murdermake, not nation-building.
Or you could interpret it to mean that the Canis Helix, which was developed by Dark Age colonists (in order to colonize an ice death world whose surface means death in seconds to ordinary humans) even causes mutations in the human populace, therefore the wolves on Fenris are people. It's PEOPLE!! In the books, Magnus, some high-ranking Space Wolves, and I think even Malcador alluded to the latter of these.
I think that the expression began in the fluff as the former. Despite the Administratum and Ecclisiarchy's incompetence and betrayal, Fenris has stayed true to it's mission. Fenris could care less what the High Lords of Terra are up to, it would keep on keeping on. This mystical combination of legend and tradition between the tribes and the skywarriors keeps Fenris loyal. Future Foundings of the Space Wolves have failed because they lacked pieces of this knotwork.
I actually rather like the implications such an interpretation of the "no wolves" statement; that the Wulfen are not a curse at all, but an intended result of the Emperor's genetic template for the Wolves, a sort of "immune response" against Chaos(as demonstrated by the 13th Co.), while the true flaw in their genome is the possibility they'll suffer a sort of genetic autoimmune disease where the Canis Helix attacks and replaces their human DNA to such a degree that they transform into barely-sentient wolf-like beasts with no hope of turning back.
I've also read somewhere that canix helix was used with the EC (to stabilize their degradation)...
Beaviz81 wrote: Yes it's that farfetched the examples I have used are proof of that. Mutations lets you grow extra hair or arms, they don't transfer you into another species. The lupine DNA goes out of control in some of the Space Wolves resulting in the Wulfen. That's basically a gang of werewolves, it does not transfer you from man to wolf. Such thoughts are simply ludicrous. I understand sci-fi, but please have some science in the mix instead of going by the rule of fun.
Zogwort would like a word with you.
You know, that guy who can transform any species in the galaxy into a squig. A fungus.
Beaviz81 wrote: Yes it's that farfetched the examples I have used are proof of that. Mutations lets you grow extra hair or arms, they don't transfer you into another species. The lupine DNA goes out of control in some of the Space Wolves resulting in the Wulfen. That's basically a gang of werewolves, it does not transfer you from man to wolf. Such thoughts are simply ludicrous. I understand sci-fi, but please have some science in the mix instead of going by the rule of fun.
Beauty of 40k fluff is that you can ignore stuff which are OTT...
Beaviz81 wrote: Yes it's that farfetched the examples I have used are proof of that. Mutations lets you grow extra hair or arms, they don't transfer you into another species. The lupine DNA goes out of control in some of the Space Wolves resulting in the Wulfen. That's basically a gang of werewolves, it does not transfer you from man to wolf. Such thoughts are simply ludicrous. I understand sci-fi, but please have some science in the mix instead of going by the rule of fun.
I'm not a geneticist, but I am a scientist with a pretty heavy interest in transhumanism(including human genetic modification), and you're creating a distinction which doesn't exist. Hypothetically, there is nothing in the science which prohibits us mechanically from transforming a living example of one species into a living example of another, particularly in this case since we're not actually talking about turning someone "from man to wolf" as you put it, but rather from man to genetic hybrid exhibiting wolf-like characteristics. Also, I find it odd that you draw the line at "genetic modification creates superhuman-werewolves" but utterly refuse to countenance "genetic modification creates bizarre man-wolf hybrid creature". If anything, the former is more ludicrous than the latter, since the latter is a permanent change while the former somehow managed to grant polymorphic abilities - something for which there is no scientific basis at all in this context.
somedudeonthe40kwiki wrote:It is generally known that during this earlier age when Mankind colonised the galaxy that humanity possessed advanced genetic engineering technology. For those early settlers that colonised the inhospitable, icy Death World of Fenris, they may have attempted to find a way to adapt themselves to the harsh environments of their new homeworld, splicing their DNA through gene-manipulation with that of Terran wolves that were more suited to the arctic conditions and climatic extremes. One could extrapolate that this would have provided the Fenrisian colonists with a fighting chance at surviving this hellish environment. In some cases this manipulation must have had unforeseen consequences.
Perhaps the first generation of "wolves" came from the original gene-tailored colonists that devolved over time until their genetic alterations stabilised, creating the first Fenrisian Wolves.
This what I gathered from the books, especially when Magnus projected his astral form to Fenris and looked at the genetic make-up of the 'wolves' there.
I THINK the Magnus looking at the genetic code thing is in 'A Thousand Sons', which heavily implies that, deep down, there's a bunch of human genetic stuff in the wolves.
Beaviz81 wrote: Yes it's that farfetched the examples I have used are proof of that. Mutations lets you grow extra hair or arms, they don't transfer you into another species. The lupine DNA goes out of control in some of the Space Wolves resulting in the Wulfen. That's basically a gang of werewolves, it does not transfer you from man to wolf. Such thoughts are simply ludicrous. I understand sci-fi, but please have some science in the mix instead of going by the rule of fun.
I'm not a geneticist, but I am a scientist with a pretty heavy interest in transhumanism(including human genetic modification), and you're creating a distinction which doesn't exist. Hypothetically, there is nothing in the science which prohibits us mechanically from transforming a living example of one species into a living example of another, particularly in this case since we're not actually talking about turning someone "from man to wolf" as you put it, but rather from man to genetic hybrid exhibiting wolf-like characteristics. Also, I find it odd that you draw the line at "genetic modification creates superhuman-werewolves" but utterly refuse to countenance "genetic modification creates bizarre man-wolf hybrid creature". If anything, the former is more ludicrous than the latter, since the latter is a permanent change while the former somehow managed to grant polymorphic abilities - something for which there is no scientific basis at all in this context.
Mutations have created very similar animals which are utterly unrelated IRL. They flying squirrels of Australia and North America are proof of that. But such things happens over millions of years. In 40.000 years the changes to the basic humans would not be large enough for them to mutate into wolves. And creating manchildish supermen with the methods of 40k would probably be a bad idea, but it's sort of cool. I just doggedly think the wolves of Fenris are totally unrelated to humans, and I really doesn't want to know how a pack of Wulfen interacts with a pack of wolves. All I know is that they ain't genetically compatible luckily.
Having just read A Thousand Sons, I have to say initially I thought it was the literal Space Wolves = Fenrisian Wolves, however after re-reading the section in which Ahriman turns on one of the other Thousand Sons for making an assumption by stating, "There are no wolves on Fenris", that it is the less literal, "Don't accept things on face value", philosopher's approach.
routmord wrote: Here is my take on it:
You can take the expression figuratively: Fenrisians are honest and noble bloodthirsty barbarians. There is no deception or betrayal in what they do. When Fenrisian tribes engage in genocide, it is called a murdermake, not nation-building.
Or you could interpret it to mean that the Canis Helix, which was developed by Dark Age colonists (in order to colonize an ice death world whose surface means death in seconds to ordinary humans) even causes mutations in the human populace, therefore the wolves on Fenris are people. It's PEOPLE!! In the books, Magnus, some high-ranking Space Wolves, and I think even Malcador alluded to the latter of these.
I think that the expression began in the fluff as the former. Despite the Administratum and Ecclisiarchy's incompetence and betrayal, Fenris has stayed true to it's mission. Fenris could care less what the High Lords of Terra are up to, it would keep on keeping on. This mystical combination of legend and tradition between the tribes and the skywarriors keeps Fenris loyal. Future Foundings of the Space Wolves have failed because they lacked pieces of this knotwork.
For a first post. This is quite well thought out. I like. Nice theory might need to steal it >.>
Beaviz81 wrote: Yes it's that farfetched the examples I have used are proof of that. Mutations lets you grow extra hair or arms, they don't transfer you into another species. The lupine DNA goes out of control in some of the Space Wolves resulting in the Wulfen. That's basically a gang of werewolves, it does not transfer you from man to wolf. Such thoughts are simply ludicrous. I understand sci-fi, but please have some science in the mix instead of going by the rule of fun.
I'm not a geneticist, but I am a scientist with a pretty heavy interest in transhumanism(including human genetic modification), and you're creating a distinction which doesn't exist. Hypothetically, there is nothing in the science which prohibits us mechanically from transforming a living example of one species into a living example of another, particularly in this case since we're not actually talking about turning someone "from man to wolf" as you put it, but rather from man to genetic hybrid exhibiting wolf-like characteristics. Also, I find it odd that you draw the line at "genetic modification creates superhuman-werewolves" but utterly refuse to countenance "genetic modification creates bizarre man-wolf hybrid creature". If anything, the former is more ludicrous than the latter, since the latter is a permanent change while the former somehow managed to grant polymorphic abilities - something for which there is no scientific basis at all in this context.
Mutations have created very similar animals which are utterly unrelated IRL. They flying squirrels of Australia and North America are proof of that. But such things happens over millions of years. In 40.000 years the changes to the basic humans would not be large enough for them to mutate into wolves. And creating manchildish supermen with the methods of 40k would probably be a bad idea, but it's sort of cool. I just doggedly think the wolves of Fenris are totally unrelated to humans, and I really doesn't want to know how a pack of Wulfen interacts with a pack of wolves. All I know is that they ain't genetically compatible luckily.
Hold on, a moment ago we were discussing advanced genetic engineering, now you want to bring evolution and deep time into things? First, the interpretation I enjoy and was arguing in favour of is one where the Space Wolves themselves are the source of Fenrisian Wolves, not the human population, and that the story of Russ' childhood is apocryphal(as the Primarchs themselves seem to be repeatedly hinting knowingly at in the HH novels whenever the subject of their own personal "origin story" comes up in conversation). The process of turning a boy into a Space Marine must surely involve massive re-sequencing of the human genome, and powerful mutagens would have to be involved for the process to work within the stated timescale; combine those factors with the likely inclusion within the Space Wolves particular makeup of lupine DNA, plus the obvious effect of the Canis Helix with its reactive and transformative properties which seem to rely heavily on that lupine DNA, and I don't think its far-fetched to posit that Fenrisian Wolves are the result of the Canis process running out of control and resulting in a more extreme and permanent physical change.
No, the Fenrisian wolves were there before the Space Marines, they are not former Space Marines too lost in the curse of the Wulfen. That might be a hilarious thought but not one I would take very seriously because of knowledge about genetics. You can create a man-wolf hybrid, but you can't transform a man to a wolf. That's Lego-genetics. And why do you think that Russ is lying about how he was found. Angron f.ex. first action was to throw a tantrum in the midst of some Eldars. You are talking about living gods here.
Void__Dragon wrote: That is actually an important distinction between Magnus and his closest brother, Lorgar.
Both viewed themselves as scholars, but while Lorgar did not think of himself as a warrior, Magnus knew full-well he was meant to be one, and was content with that fact.
Lorgar was a nerd. Magnus was a true scholar-warrior. If only it wasn't for his towering pride and monumentally arrogant belief in his own mastery over the Warp (he should have focused on psionic mastery rather than unlocking the forbidden secrets of sorcery), Magnus along with Sanguinius would easily have counted as a perfect Primarch. Perfect as in he was everything the Emperor meant for him to be.
You sir are a charlatan and a traitor! Guards take him away!
but yeah your kind of right
*gets smacked in the face by Lorgar*
Blood Angels, Thousand Sons, and the Raven Guard don't overdo it. You don't see Magnus or his Sons walking around with wigs and false beards, do you? Or Sanguinius and the Blood Angels sleeping in coffins (except during initiation) or wearing capes with exaggerated collars. Night Lords are a bit over the top though, and the World Eaters are even worse along with the Emperor's Children.
And I hate anything related to the Ecclesiarchy. Space Wolves/Khornate Knights blowing up Ecclesiarchy ships and killing bolter bitches are definitely things I can stand behind.
You mean collars like this?
Blood Angels have the highest collars in the Galaxy. Mephiston even mesmerises his victims/opponents.
It is - especially when older fluff works fine (fe Ollanius Pius), reinventing new stuff while totally disergarding existing, is heresy x 1000 in my eyes....
Furyou Miko wrote:
Arguably, the Hope in 30k was a manufactured thing - it depended entirely on the Emperor's survival, and the fact that he assumed that his survival was guaranteed rather than even trusting twenty other demigods with the whole plan is probably the reason it all failed.
I wouldn't say so seeing as he knows he will lose and doesn't seem to be angry or frustrated about it.
Can you imagine? A 40k where the Primarchs knew the whole truth instead of the half-truths and lies the Emperor actually gave them?
Would it really help when it comes to Lorgar and Magnus?
Lorgar wanted god's and worship, something the Emp didn't want. If he knew about the Chaos gods cause the Emp told him, its possible he would have turned traitor anyway.
Magnus knew about the things in the Warp's intelligence. The problem is that Magnus is very fething arrogant.
Void__Dragon wrote:30k was almost nothing but indoctrination. The Emperor mindraped everyone into believing the stupid as hell gak he spoused, and had remembrancers peddle the most brainwashing, illogical garbage you could imagine.
Just read that speech in the first book from that old remembrancer.
Uh no. You're correct about the indoctrination part but not the mindrape part.
You know what I find funny, its been mentioned in some sources that DAoT humanity had come to see science as god and all powerful or something like that and didn't care about religion. Something the Emp himself espouses.
Changing long-time fluff just because you don't like something is heresy as Marko tells you. And from what I have read of your comments in this post I'm quite certain you at least have a mild dislike for the Space Wolves.
Changing long-time fluff just because you don't like something is heresy as Marko tells you. And from what I have read of your comments in this post I'm quite certain you at least have a mild dislike for the Space Wolves.
"Mild" is a mild word - ofc he doesn't have problem on something which degrades his "most beloved " legion into animals...
Well, if the tables are turned and TS were de-mutating into wolves, heads would fall and BL authors would be verbally crucified .....
No offense to @Void, but some fluff changes (like this one) are giga dumb....
pg292-293 wrote:"The Emperor did something to streamline the primarch material to create the Legiones Astartes template, but the possible permutations are too numerous to investigate. My mathematical analysis suggests it would take at least five years of continual study to narrow down our options to a number more suitable for physical experimentation."
...
"The primarch genetic coding is vastly more complex than standard Raven Guard gene-seed," the Apothecary explained. "The Emperor extracted only a few elements of the original data to create the Legiones Astartes strain, and about a dozen more in the Legio Custodes data we retrieved from the Terran vault. To isolate the rapid maturation and cell cloning abilities you desire, and graft them onto our own gene-seed, we have to retroactively engineer the Raven Guard gene-seed with the appropriate sequence. There are millions of sequences that might be applied, even from a single primarch strand, and there are twenty unique primarch codes to choose from."
...
"We have managed to identify at least six unique sub-complexes and protein strands geared towards physical durability, above and beyond that found in the others. In the same sample, there is a dearth of certain enhanced genes that, in our estimation, boost the cytoarchetectonic structure responsible for the development of nociceptors and proprioceptory function. The deficiency seems to be deliberate. In subject six there is a whole suite of genetic encoding derived from a non-human source, possibly canine. In subject twenty, a whole suite of growth boosting augmentations is absent. "
...
Rather than create twenty superhuman warriors, he could create thousands, hundreds of thousands of next-generation soldiers. Each would have a fraction of the power of the primarchs, it was true, but their numbers would more than make up for the difference.
Automatically Appended Next Post: If the Emp can do it, I'm sure DAoT humanity could have done it too. After all at the end of the day, its just genetic tinkering. 40k is not hard science btw.
Changing long-time fluff just because you don't like something is heresy as Marko tells you. And from what I have read of your comments in this post I'm quite certain you at least have a mild dislike for the Space Wolves.
"Mild" is a mild word - ofc he doesn't have problem on something which degrades his "most beloved " legion into animals...
Well, if the tables are turned and TS were de-mutating into wolves, heads would fall and BL authors would be verbally crucified .....
No offense to @Void, but some fluff changes (like this one) are giga dumb....
Well the TS with a few exceptions are just walking suits of armour, must be kind of unsettling/unrewarding slaughtering one of them and discover you only have gotten a suit of armour and some dust.. I'm 100% in agreement against the stupidity that is with people barefaced and serious telling me they believe in brother riding brother into battle.
DarthMarko wrote: It is - especially when older fluff works fine (fe Ollanius Pius), reinventing new stuff while totally disergarding existing, is heresy x 1000 in my eyes....
I was responding to your assertion that it is just a "fan rant".
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Beaviz81 wrote: Changing long-time fluff just because you don't like something is heresy as Marko tells you. And from what I have read of your comments in this post I'm quite certain you at least have a mild dislike for the Space Wolves.
What makes you think that?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DarthMarko wrote: "Mild" is a mild word - ofc he doesn't have problem on something which degrades his "most beloved " legion into animals...
Well, if the tables are turned and TS were de-mutating into wolves, heads would fall and BL authors would be verbally crucified .....
No offense to @Void, but some fluff changes (like this one) are giga dumb....
The Space Wolves always had a tendency to become animals when their mutation goes haywire, lol.
The Thousand Sons mutate into mindless tentacle monsters, and these mutations directly contributed to bringing down their legion. So I probably don't have a problem with the TS mutating.
Nah, this fluff change is interesting, and also hilarious in an out of universe sense. Like Rogal Dorn.
Beaviz81 wrote: Changing long-time fluff just because you don't like something is heresy as Marko tells you. And from what I have read of your comments in this post I'm quite certain you at least have a mild dislike for the Space Wolves.
What makes you think that?
Your style of commenting. Marko also picked that up. Mind you mild is a mild word.
Beaviz81 wrote: Well the TS with a few exceptions are just walking suits of armour, must be kind of unsettling/unrewarding slaughtering one of them and discover you only have gotten a suit of armour and some dust.. I'm 100% in agreement against the stupidity that is with people barefaced and serious telling me they believe in brother riding brother into battle.
The homoeroticism is what makes it good.
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Beaviz81 wrote: Your style of commenting. Marko also picked that up. Mind you mild is a mild word.
I comment like this on everything. My heart burns with a passion hot enough to melt the mountainside.
I've spoken to Marko many times, mostly on the opposite side of the debate. I tend to argue against Space Wolves because, well, someone has to.
No the Space Wolves becomes werewolves when the curse of the Wulfen goes highwire. It doesn't suddenly make a man a wolf. Changing into a wolf-like human is different that changing from human to wolf.
Corporal_Reznov wrote: Uh no. You're correct about the indoctrination part but not the mindrape part.
You know what I find funny, its been mentioned in some sources that DAoT humanity had come to see science as god and all powerful or something like that and didn't care about religion. Something the Emp himself espouses.
I am correct on both accounts actually.
Kelbor Hal got a healthy dosage of mindrape from the Emperor when they met, and his raw psychic presence overrides the rationality of mortals in his presence and makes them want to follow him. Only the Primarchs seem wholly immune to this power.
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Beaviz81 wrote: No the Space Wolves becomes werewolves when the curse of the Wulfen goes highwire. It doesn't suddenly make a man a wolf. Changing into a wolf-like human is different that changing from human to wolf.
There is no difference. The oldest tales of werewolves didn't turn men into some weird hybrid. They just became wolves.
Corporal_Reznov wrote: Uh no. You're correct about the indoctrination part but not the mindrape part.
You know what I find funny, its been mentioned in some sources that DAoT humanity had come to see science as god and all powerful or something like that and didn't care about religion. Something the Emp himself espouses.
I am correct on both accounts actually.
Kelbor Hal got a healthy dosage of mindrape from the Emperor when they met, and his raw psychic presence overrides the rationality of mortals in his presence and makes them want to follow him. Only the Primarchs seem wholly immune to this power.
I was talking about the everyone part. I don't see the raw psychic presence part as mind rape unless you say that the effect Primarchs have on mortals where they awe them and gak is also mind rape?
And you are one to talk about mind rape! Seeing as Magnus and his useless feth up the Webway stunt truly did mind rape Terra causing entire families to forget each other and such.
The idea of anyone trying to claim that there is one true traditional werewolf legend is laughable.
There are hybrid werewolf legends. There are animal form werewolf legends. There are even human form werewolf legends, where the werewolf's true form is the animal.
The term mind rape is being used far too casually here. Mind rape is a total psychic violation of someone's personality and values. You can't mind rape a planet.
The term mind rape is being used far too casually here. Mind rape is a total psychic violation of someone's personality and values. You can't mind rape a planet.
Poor choice of words on my part. I meant that Magnus mind raped or fethed up the minds of the people on Terra.
Furyou Miko wrote: Not really. He shattered the wards and broke a lot of circuits in the throne, but he didn't really attack any of the people there.
See below:
The Outcast Dead Page 164 wrote:Mobs of lunatics bearing cudgels and brickbats laid siege to columned palaces and clashed with other mobs for no reason any one person could adequately explain.
...
Those on the dark side of the world suffered nightmares the like of which had not been seen since the bleakest watches of Old Night.
...
Entire cities of Terra awoke screaming and millions died by their own hand as their minds fragmented in the face of such psychic assault. Others awoke with their minds altered in fundamental ways that rendered them into entirely new individuals. Fathers, wives and children forgot one another as mental pathways were erased or rewritten in vulgar ways that wiped entire families from existence.
In places where the barrier between the material realm and the warp was already thin, manifestations of dreams and nightmares stalked the landscape. Black-furred wolves with burning lights for eyes descended from the mountains to devastate entire communities, and no weapon could slay them. Entire populations vanished as their towns and burgs were swallowed whole by catastrophic overspills of warp energy, leaving nothing but eerily empty buildings in their aftermath.
All over the globe, the people of Terra suffered for Magnus’s hubris, but nowhere felt the shockwave of his return more powerfully than the City of Sight.
The Outcast Dead page 226 wrote:The Bleed roared and seethed like an atmospheric superstorm, raging with the distilled nightmares and collected visions of thousands of traumatised astro-telepaths. Hundreds had been killed in the psychic shockwave that still echoed in the planet’s aether, and hundreds more would never regain full use of their abilities
He destroyed the Emp's work by punching holes into the human built portion of the Webway and nearly got Terra eaten by daemons alongside all that are stated in the posts.
In regards to the OP, I believe that it is more literal than anything mentioned. I believe them are simply stating that the Vlka Fenryke are NOT wolves, mindless animals or rabid attack hounds. They are simply doing their jo. Basically someone says
"You are savage wolves, the wolves of Fenris!"
"There are no wolves on Fenri (Tjat's BS!)"
Corporal_Reznov wrote: I was talking about the everyone part. I don't see the raw psychic presence part as mind rape unless you say that the effect Primarchs have on mortals where they awe them and gak is also mind rape?
And you are one to talk about mind rape! Seeing as Magnus and his useless feth up the Webway stunt truly did mind rape Terra causing entire families to forget each other and such.
Uh, yeah, it's certainly mindrape, lol.
That's cool I guess? I don't dislike the Emperor for his casual mental domination of mortals, nor do I dislike Magnus for his casual mental domination of his scribe (I love how no one really seemed to care that Magnus was basically turning an old man insane with his telepathic shenanigans), which is a better example as it was intentional. Grimdark is cool with me.
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Beaviz81 wrote: Ehm no. The myth has always been men turning into wolflike rabid creatures. Likely due to rabies which is what the Wulfen suffers from. Space-Rabies.
Afraid not my friend. In medieval mythology among the more common legends were that they simply turned into wolves, or maybe dire wolves.
Or, because Satan is a pussy and his magic sucks, deals with the devil only gave you the power to make an illusion that you are a wolf, not that you actually were one.
Beaviz81 wrote: Dire wolves is more recent and American. You are way lost there VD, sorry but do a Wikipedia-search on them and you will see how moot your point is.
Dire wolves were actual wolves that existed ten thousand years ago, lol.
And I was using dire wolf as a catch-all term for "really big wolf".
Furyou Miko wrote:That was all side-effect though.
Still mindrape and worse then anything the Emp did.
Void__Dragon wrote:
Corporal_Reznov wrote: I was talking about the everyone part. I don't see the raw psychic presence part as mind rape unless you say that the effect Primarchs have on mortals where they awe them and gak is also mind rape?
And you are one to talk about mind rape! Seeing as Magnus and his useless feth up the Webway stunt truly did mind rape Terra causing entire families to forget each other and such.
Uh, yeah, it's certainly mindrape, lol.
lol, then a lot of people in 40k commit mind rape. Congratulations then.
Actually according to Norse sagas they are the offspring of Fenris, which is the greatest wolf ever, which explains the many wolves at Fenris. At a separate level I sort of think the Fenrisian fauna to be like the mega-fauna that existed during the last ice-age with mammoths, hairy rhinos and such.
" legion into animals... 
