I hear people calling them furies and heretics but can't see why, I find them some of the only likable loyalist Legions who had much sense or lack of hypocrisy in them, as opposed to the Angels Dark or Blood who conceal their flaws and act zealously to almost to compensate for their flaws. Or how bout the self important Fist who lost every battle since the start of the Horus Heresy and turned two Legions to Chaos . The Ultramarines deserve hate just because their featured to much in the fluff and because of Matt Ward.
The Wolves are probably the best that remained Loyal to the Emperor, the fact that they were allowed to mimic Horus's Legion and refer to themselves as the Emperor executioners says a lot about where they stood. In a way I'd the Wolves might have been the greatest Legion because they were the only Legion to be allowed to stay a Legion and not be divided into chapters.
but can't see why, I find them some of the only likable loyalist Legions who had much sense or lack of hypocrisy in them,
Not touching this, been done.
as opposed to the Angels Dark or Blood who conceal their flaws and act zealously to almost to compensate for their flaws.
Dark Angels sure. Blood Angels? No, get out.
What's that, they have a flaw they are ashamed of and are as such inspired to be the best they can be? Why, how positively unlikable!
Or how bout the self important Fist who lost every battle since the start of the Horus Heresy and turned two Legions to Chaos.
This is an opinion brought on by lack of knowledge regarding the fluff. Curze and Perturabo made their choices. Also, Primarch =/= Chapter.
The Ultramarines deserve hate just because their featured to much in the fluff and because of Matt Ward.
lolbias.
The Wolves are probably the best that remained Loyal to the Emperor, the fact that they were allowed to mimic Horus's Legion and refer to themselves as the Emperor executioners says a lot about where they stood. In a way I'd the Wolves might have been the greatest Legion because they were the only Legion to be allowed to stay a Legion and not be divided into chapters.
The Space Wolves are not a Legion. They number less than two thousand Marines.
The reason they remained a Legion is because they kill anyone of authority that comes to question them, and somehow this is okay for them but not any other member of the Imperium. Oh, and they are Space Marines but they are actually better than Space Marines while also being drunken human Viking stereotypes. They lord over a single deathworld of primitives, yet somehow have the human man-power to crew a fleet bigger than that of a Segmentum. They get to flaunt the Imperial Truth and cling to superstitions, they judge their brethren while guilty of many of the same infractions (Blood Angels, Thousand Sons, World Eaters, etc.). They get to execute members of the Inquisition and Ecclesiarchy and its totally okay. Oh, and they get to be the only Space Marines with working junk.
They are basically a teenager's fanwank version of Space Marines. They were Wardian before Ward.
And let's not talk about how honorably they treat the Ecclisiarchy and Inquisition. A bunch of short-sighted barbarians who endanger billions and threaten other Imperial factions because it is such a good idea.
I assume it has little to do with the actual fluff, but more to do with SM in general being the poster boys of GW. Popularity comes with the haters too. Just my 2c.
TheDiscoSpider wrote: I assume it has little to do with the actual fluff, but more to do with SM in general being the poster boys of GW. Hate comes with popularity. Just my 2c.
No, it's literally all of their fluff. In the studio material, they are more human than human more Space Marine than Space Marine Mary Sues. In the BL material, they are colossal fools and donkey-caves.
TheDiscoSpider wrote: I assume it has little to do with the actual fluff, but more to do with SM in general being the poster boys of GW. Hate comes with popularity. Just my 2c.
No, it's literally all of their fluff. In the studio material, they are more human than human more Space Marine than Space Marine Mary Sues. In the BL material, they are colossal fools and donkey-caves.
I haven't read any BL material on SW's, but I've read a bit of the codex and I'm aware of the disparity between sources. Personally, Codices > BL, in terms of 'canonicity'.
curran12 wrote: And let's not talk about how honorably they treat the Ecclisiarchy and Inquisition. A bunch of short-sighted barbarians who endanger billions and threaten other Imperial factions because it is such a good idea.
And don't forget how honorably the Ecclisiarchy and Inquisition treat the common man....
Armaggedon : -Rich and Influential - no corruption
-Common grunts - working camps
TheDiscoSpider wrote: I assume it has little to do with the actual fluff, but more to do with SM in general being the poster boys of GW. Hate comes with popularity. Just my 2c.
No, it's literally all of their fluff. In the studio material, they are more human than human more Space Marine than Space Marine Mary Sues. In the BL material, they are colossal fools and donkey-caves.
TheDiscoSpider wrote: I assume it has little to do with the actual fluff, but more to do with SM in general being the poster boys of GW. Hate comes with popularity. Just my 2c.
No, it's literally all of their fluff. In the studio material, they are more human than human more Space Marine than Space Marine Mary Sues. In the BL material, they are colossal fools and donkey-caves.
I haven't read any BL material on SW's, but I've read a bit of the codex and I'm aware of the disparity between sources. Personally, Codices > BL, in terms of 'canonicity'.
TheDiscoSpider wrote: I assume it has little to do with the actual fluff, but more to do with SM in general being the poster boys of GW. Hate comes with popularity. Just my 2c.
No, it's literally all of their fluff. In the studio material, they are more human than human more Space Marine than Space Marine Mary Sues. In the BL material, they are colossal fools and donkey-caves.
I haven't read any BL material on SW's, but I've read a bit of the codex and I'm aware of the disparity between sources. Personally, Codices > BL, in terms of 'canonicity'.
You mean pulling out the spine of one of his brothers because the dude tried to use magic to stop horus's possession by chaos and then warn the papa does not qualify Russ to be labled a dbag? Not to mention he was perfectly fine with his own people using magic provided it was shamanistically themed rather than pointy hat theme.
If the wolves had just stayed home playing with chicken bones and space ale, the heresy might actually have been stopped by magnus.
curran12 wrote: And let's not talk about how honorably they treat the Ecclisiarchy and Inquisition. A bunch of short-sighted barbarians who endanger billions and threaten other Imperial factions because it is such a good idea.
And don't forget how honorably the Ecclisiarchy and Inquisition treat the common man....
Armaggedon : -Rich and Influential - no corruption
-Common grunts - working camps
Boohoo, waaah, the rich and privileged get special treatment. Oh the injustice! Welcome to humanity circa always.
The Ecclesiarchy and Inquisition are dicks, but this is a universe of real metaphysical dangers. A few thousand innocents die to prevent one from becoming the scourge of millions? Good deal. And it's fine if the Wolves want to be the kewl hipsters who flaunt authority, but they never suffer any consequences for their actions.
curran12 wrote: And let's not talk about how honorably they treat the Ecclisiarchy and Inquisition. A bunch of short-sighted barbarians who endanger billions and threaten other Imperial factions because it is such a good idea.
And don't forget how honorably the Ecclisiarchy and Inquisition treat the common man....
Armaggedon : -Rich and Influential - no corruption
-Common grunts - working camps
Boohoo, waaah, the rich and privileged get special treatment. Oh the injustice! Welcome to humanity circa always.
The Ecclesiarchy and Inquisition are dicks, but this is a universe of real metaphysical dangers. A few thousand innocents die to prevent one from becoming the scourge of millions? Good deal. And it's fine if the Wolves want to be the kewl hipsters who flaunt authority, but they never suffer any consequences for their actions.
Bo hoo, you jumped in your words.... A few thousand innocents die, but not the ruling caste - chaos incursion imminent....So "A few thousand innocents die to prevent one from becoming the scourge of millions " isn't the radical safety measure ...
Bo hoo, you jumped in your words.... A few thousand innocents die, but not the ruling caste - chaos incursion imminent....So "A few thousand innocents die to prevent one from becoming the scourge of millions " isn't the radical safety measure ...
The ruling caste was shipped off world before the incursion proper; the rest were left behind to either be conscripted into the battle, or to cower in their houses hoping for the best. Their potential level of exposure was far greater.
Just Dave wrote: Yeah, I found them kewl, but not particularly nice guys.
I don't believe characters have to be personally endearing to be "likable".
A lot of my favorite characters are ass clowns.
I can somewhat agree with that myself, and the sense of humour in Prospero Burns certainly drew me to them.
But, personally, I'm always much more fond of the good guys, and less so the bad guys. It's generally a case of me being able to like the former, and respect the latter; people seemed to pick up on this pretty quickly in my Primarch ranking thread. Therefore, I actively like the Space Wolves chapter, but i can respect the Legion.
When I'm at a computer/have more time, I'll elaborate upon why I like/respect the Wolves; as opposed to why others hate them.
@davou -Nope, Magnus tried to stop Horus, but failed...rest is Tzeenchy (who had Magnus the moment he made that deal)...*check paradox theory in "gues who is BR-s primarch"....
Just Dave wrote: I can somewhat agree with that myself, and the sense of humour in Prospero Burns certainly drew me to them.
But, personally, I'm always much more fond of the good guys, and less so the bad guys. It's generally a case of me being able to like the former, and respect the latter; people seemed to pick up on this pretty quickly in my Primarch ranking thread. Therefore, I actively like the Space Wolves chapter, but i can respect the Legion.
When I'm at a computer/have more time, I'll elaborate upon why I like/respect the Wolves; as opposed to why others hate them.
I am admittedly something of the opposite, lol.
I tend to strongly prefer villainous curs. Ser Gregor Clegane being my favorite A Song of Ice and Fire character, terribly enough.
Magnus is actually uncharacteristically "nice" for one of my favorite characters. For reference, second place among Primarchs is probably like, Perturabo or Angron. Maybe Lorgar. But then Sanguinius is another favorite, hm.
Bo hoo, you jumped in your words.... A few thousand innocents die, but not the ruling caste - chaos incursion imminent....So "A few thousand innocents die to prevent one from becoming the scourge of millions " isn't the radical safety measure ...
The ruling caste was shipped off world before the incursion proper; the rest were left behind to either be conscripted into the battle, or to cower in their houses hoping for the best. Their potential level of exposure was far greater.
DarthMarko wrote: Ofc - disregard the Empeor, Tzeench, Horus and Magnus...
SW are to blame...
Why does everything turn into a Thousand Sons thing with you? Sanguinius mentioned to Horus that "judgemental Russ" was someone he didn't want to know about the Blood Angels' curse, Malcador commented that Russ' impetuousness really messed things up, the Rout held to the primitive superstitions of their planet even at the height of the Imperium's anti-mysticism, and ADB's ramblings about "lessons" notwithstanding, Russ had no authority to be ordering Angron around. That's the Space Wolves' shtick, in all of their stories; they continuously overstep their bounds and flout authority, and never suffer any consequences for their actions. I'm all for the noble vikings that do "the right thing" at great cost, but the Wolves seem to live in an alternate sunshine and lollipops version of the 40K universe where they never suffer any setbacks.
I now wait with baited breath for your scintillating counter-argument where you throw up a cutesy emoticon and maybe call me a Thousand Sons fanboy.
DarthMarko wrote: Ofc - disregard the Empeor, Tzeench, Horus and Magnus...
SW are to blame...
Why does everything turn into a Thousand Sons thing with you? Sanguinius mentioned to Horus that "judgemental Russ" was someone he didn't want to know about the Blood Angels' curse, Malcador commented that Russ' impetuousness really messed things up, the Rout held to the primitive superstitions of their planet even at the height of the Imperium's anti-mysticism, and ADB's ramblings about "lessons" notwithstanding, Russ had no authority to be ordering Angron around. That's the Space Wolves' shtick, in all of their stories; they continuously overstep their bounds and flout authority, and never suffer any consequences for their actions. I'm all for the noble vikings that do "the right thing" at great cost, but the Wolves seem to live in an alternate sunshine and lollipops version of the 40K universe where they never suffer any setbacks.
I now wait with baited breath for your scintillating counter-argument where you throw up a cutesy emoticon and maybe call me a Thousand Sons fanboy.
Because I like the TS (especially Ahriman's renegades) as much as I like the rout...I don't like Magnus....
ADB's ramblings about "lessons" notwithstanding ??? LOL Tell him that on his FB page...
Also "get out of jail card (for the rich bastards)" was in the aftermath....So stop twisting the facts....
Were the "I" absolute in their actions??? NO...!
There is no middle ground...If they were I could even understand them....
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Snogs wrote: Ehh
People will always hate you when your the best at what you do.
And what the SW do,is give a big FU to everyone else.
I kind of love them for it.
I personally dislike the Space Wolves for their disunity.
Mankind must be united against the threats from within and without, yet if the Space Wolves think their way is better, then feth everyone else, they'll do it their way.
OMG people hating on the space wolves there are 6 possible reasons.
1.The wolves blew up their home planet like a boss
2.The wolves kicked their ass like a boss
3.The others are upset that there primarch is %100 dead
4.Russ is a boss
5.They dislike vikings
6.The space wolves should actully be the model that the legions are built around, each individual chapter capable of working by itself, free from needing other chapters.
1.The wolves blew up their home planet like a boss
2.The wolves kicked their ass like a boss
3.The others are upset that there primarch is %100 dead
4.Russ is a boss
5.They dislike vikings
6.The space wolves should actully be the model that the legions are built around, each individual chapter capable of working by itself, free from needing other chapters.
1,2,4: LIKE A BAUSS much?
3.: That's cooler, and more grimdark.
5. Vikings are cool. Vikings in SPESS aren't.
6. Drunk vikings a model for legions to be build around? Fully independent for bigger chance of going traitor? Yeah, sure.
Omegus wrote: The reason they remained a Legion is because they kill anyone of authority that comes to question them, and somehow this is okay for them but not any other member of the Imperium. Oh, and they are Space Marines but they are actually better than Space Marines while also being drunken human Viking stereotypes. They lord over a single deathworld of primitives, yet somehow have the human man-power to crew a fleet bigger than that of a Segmentum. They get to flaunt the Imperial Truth and cling to superstitions, they judge their brethren while guilty of many of the same infractions (Blood Angels, Thousand Sons, World Eaters, etc.). They get to execute members of the Inquisition and Ecclesiarchy and its totally okay. Oh, and they get to be the only Space Marines with working junk.
They are basically a teenager's fanwank version of Space Marines. They were Wardian before Ward.
All of this, they've been this way even before /TG/ got ahold of wards fluff (that was copied from previous SM codex's ) and threw it out of proportion.
1.The wolves blew up their home planet like a boss
2.The wolves kicked their ass like a boss
3.The others are upset that there primarch is %100 dead
4.Russ is a boss
5.They dislike vikings
6.The space wolves should actully be the model that the legions are built around, each individual chapter capable of working by itself, free from needing other chapters.
1.The wolves blew up their home planet like a boss
2.The wolves kicked their ass like a boss
3.The others are upset that there primarch is %100 dead
4.Russ is a boss
5.They dislike vikings
6.The space wolves should actully be the model that the legions are built around, each individual chapter capable of working by itself, free from needing other chapters.
This isn't a biased post at all.
So we are not supposed to take sides, ok then here is me balancing it out.
Space wolves appear to suffer from "wee man syndrom" however despite that, they are still "bauss".
Because I like the TS (especially Ahriman's renegades) as much as I like the rout...I don't like Magnus....
ADB's ramblings about "lessons" notwithstanding ??? LOL Tell him that on his FB page...
The Burning of Prospero is far from the only entry in the litany of the Wolves' flaws, you just always like to jump to that because it's easier to dismiss people as having a TS bias than directly addressing criticisms of your beloved Wolves.
As for Ahriman, for what its worth, he ends up as much or more of a tool than Magnus by the end of Exile.
And yes, ADB's talks of lessons are irrelevant; Russ did not have the authority to demand Angron surrender to him and submit to de-implantation.
Also "get out of jail card (for the rich bastards)" was in the aftermath....So stop twisting the facts....
Were the "I" absolute in their actions??? NO...!
There is no middle ground...If they were I could even understand them....
I took you on your word about this the first time around, but after going through the Emperor's Gift, there is no mention of "rich bastards" getting a pass. The entire population was condemned, and the only reason the planet wasn't subject to Exterminatus was the value of its industry. If I'm guilty of twisting facts, it's facts you fabricated. Through their narrow-minded and naive concept of honor, the Space Wolves helped condemn billions to death. It took Bjorn to talk some sense into Grimnar, and he still huffed and puffed like a spoiled child. But like Hyperion said, the Wolves weren't bred to be thinkers, and their self-delusion is admirable... to a point.
Instead, the Adept Lords decreed that all the records of the invasion should be purged, and that every citizen who had so much heard about the daemonic taint upon Armageddon would be rounded up, sterilized, and sent to enormous forced-labor camps in the far south. Millions of those who had fought alongside the Space Wolves were forced to live out the rest of their lives in slavery. With the hives empty of all save the most wealthy and influential, the Administratum imported a new workforce to replace those who had gazed upon the face of Chaos and lived.
Which is to say, that something as minor as the most wealthy and power individuals on Armageddon managing to be beyond the Inquisition's reach is not exactly unprecedented nor is it necessarily damning of the Inquisition. It is a line of fluff that you are assuming the worst of.
I'm fairly neutral to positive towards the space wolves. They have a sense of honor and a value for civilians that I like, but they're loose cannon attitude is extremely dangerous, especially when their status as a founding chapter makes them more or less beyond reproach by any other authority.
This is probably the core of my dislike. They tend to attract the most juvenile and rabid "wolfs are the bestest at everything and total bausses and ur just jelus plus they get drunk a lot and thats kewl" type of fanboy. The tabletop reflects this, with the player behind the army usually being far more obnoxious than their crazy rules. Not all of them are like that, of course, but I feel comfortable with an estimate of 90%.
Oh, and I guess there's all the wet leopard purring, too.
DarthMarko wrote:^ It does in the SW codex....pg 23 Aftermath
Spoiler:
Instead, the Adept Lords decreed that all the records of the invasion should be purged, and that every citizen who had so much heard about the daemonic taint upon Armageddon would be rounded up, sterilized, and sent to enormous forced-labor camps in the far south. Millions of those who had fought alongside the Space Wolves were forced to live out the rest of their lives in slavery. With the hives empty of all save the most wealthy and influential, the Administratum imported a new workforce to replace those who had gazed upon the face of Chaos and lived.
Good find. Although in the BL material, Grimnar doesn't give a crap about the populace and is mainly concerned about the soldiers. Still, it doesn't say those spared were allowed to leave. These "wealthy and influential" individuals were likely the various administrators, and they simply continued their duties with a new work force. You are inferring a lot about just how much leeway they got. And, of course, money talks (even the Emperor himself had to humor wealthy and influential individuals...see Outcast Dead, for example).
This is probably a better way of putting it:
Void__Dragon wrote:Who gives a damn?
Which is to say, that something as minor as the most wealthy and power individuals on Armageddon managing to be beyond the Inquisition's reach is not exactly unprecedented nor is it necessarily damning of the Inquisition. It is a line of fluff that you are assuming the worst of.
This is probably the core of my dislike. They tend to attract the most juvenile and rabid "wolfs are the bestest at everything and total bausses and ur just jelus plus they get drunk a lot and thats kewl" type of fanboy. The tabletop reflects this, with the player behind the army usually being far more obnoxious than their crazy rules. Not all of them are like that, of course, but I feel comfortable with an estimate of 90%.
The ire that Space Wolves fans attract really irritates me to be honest, but then, I don't think it's exactly wrong either. There does seem to be a lot of fanboy-ism; probably more so than with other factions.
I've often wondered if the Space Wolf/Thousand Son divide is quite so prominent on other boards too, on that note...
The Burning of Prospero is far from the only entry in the litany of the Wolves' flaws, you just always like to jump to that because it's easier to dismiss people as having a TS bias than directly addressing criticisms of your beloved Wolves.[/spoiler]
Now point me where did I mention the TS ?
I said Emperor, Tzeench, Horus and Magnus....
My opinion was always traitor primarch/ loyal legion....and this is like always on my behalf....
And where did I ever acuse you of anything...???
I even enjoyed your humor , even though on my second post on dakka, guy told me - don't explain things to him, he is a huge SW hater who wouldn't hear anything which isn't a SW hate....
But when you put your hate glasses on....hmmmmm.....let's say you are not so funny anymore, dude...
One thing I want to know, how does a legion that consists of ten to a hundred thousand space marines that never divided itself drop to one and a half thousand full-fledged battle brothers plus the standard vehicle crews and whatnot who usually aren't' included on the official roster. Their recruitment rates seem to be good and they didn't go through any truly catastrophic losses. Unless the wolves are pulling a fast one on the imperium and each great pack secretly consists of a thousand or more battle brothers.
Kain wrote: One thing I want to know, how does a legion that consists of ten to a hundred thousand space marines that never divided itself drop to one and a half thousand full-fledged battle brothers plus the standard vehicle crews and whatnot who usually aren't' included on the official roster. Their recruitment rates seem to be good and they didn't go through any truly catastrophic losses. Unless the wolves are pulling a fast one on the imperium and each great pack secretly consists of a thousand or more battle brothers.
I've heard "Great scouring, speartip" going crazy over Empy's death.....
I thought the Space Wolves might be 12-15k. strong, I never figured them for stronger than that, and remember they are rule-breakers. They break rules just for the purpose of breaking rules, that I think breed the hatred of them.
Omegus wrote: Don't play dumb, this is far from our first rodeo.
Now, you made laugh again...
It isn't? Oooo, how the time flys....And I don't play dumb I have memory leaks from 12 h programming, 2 l of coffe and 1 kg of sugar daily....
Kain wrote: One thing I want to know, how does a legion that consists of ten to a hundred thousand space marines that never divided itself drop to one and a half thousand full-fledged battle brothers plus the standard vehicle crews and whatnot who usually aren't' included on the official roster. Their recruitment rates seem to be good and they didn't go through any truly catastrophic losses. Unless the wolves are pulling a fast one on the imperium and each great pack secretly consists of a thousand or more battle brothers.
General estimates put the Wolves at around 60-70,000 during the Great Crusade (one of the smaller Legions), in my experience. They will have lost a lot of men fighting the Thousand Sons and Alpha Legion, then also during the Scouring.
They have also been divided in half once, which would suggest they were down to around 6000 men when they formed the Wolf Brothers (estimates put the Wolves chapter at around 2000-3000; I seem to recall Chris Wraith stating around 2300, but I don't have an actual source for this).
There's a lot of ambiguity about how they became so small, but it's worth bearing in mind that this may also be due to the expansion of the "official" Legion sizes from 10,000's to 100,000's (done during the early-middle of the HH series). The Wolves were stated as only having 1 successor Chapter when they were only supposed to number 10,000 originally; which may help explain the discrepancy.
Pretty sure the OP was trolling. That, or his dakka-sense is underdevelopped.
As for Armageddon: the main thing it`s supposed to do IMHO is to highlight that the SW hold different views compared to the imperium. Whereas in the grimdarkness of yadayadayada it is acceptable to neuter the lowly workers of a population and force-labor them to death, I can see a
Chapter like them take offense. Fenris, as a deathworld, knows only one universal profession: fighting to survive. Hence the SW adhere strongly to a viking inspired warrior culture. Their beef with the big I is not so much that the poor get fethed while the rich live on shielded by their wealth and importance, but the fact that those who have done the thing in life which Fenrisians respect most are punished for their deeds. It does make them more humane, but not necessarily the brightest of all chapters considering the risks.
The whole hatred thing is mainly due to people wanting them to be Mary Sues who drink Ale (I suspect the taint of chan here). I have wolves and I like my beer-swigging, chainsword swinging dudes, but for me they don`t have to be always trolling the Inquisition, or
always beating the TS. I like my wolves being able to lose a cruiser to the Red Corsairs and my Russ regretting that he was so stupid and shallow-minded that he allowed himself to be tricked into nearly killing a brother and destroying a planet in the process. I like the idea that Magnus probably was a far better and more intelligent indiviual who understood what was going on. As an academic I think someone who actually values knowledge without fearing it has a meaningfull role to fulfill. The wolves have always been there to fulfill the role of troublemakers breaking all the rules and fething gak up. I also like that role, to the point where it stops becoming entirely incredible (even for the 40K) setting. Still, without that rule-breaking we would never have had the predator annihilator so it must serve some purpose.
1.The wolves blew up their home planet like a boss
2.The wolves kicked their ass like a boss
3.The others are upset that there primarch is %100 dead
4.Russ is a boss
5.They dislike vikings
6.The space wolves should actully be the model that the legions are built around, each individual chapter capable of working by itself, free from needing other chapters.
Don't see how their independence is such a good thing, the fact that they're stubborn as hell and don't get along with a lot of other Imperial factions combined with this means that there is more chance of them clashing with other chapters which isn't good for unity at all.
Personally I love the Space Wolves; my problem is with the new comers. Not because They are overenthusiastic about them. It is the attitude towards them that has become the problem.
I have been playing Space Wolves since 1989, the only time I ever shelves them was for about 3 months after the 2nd edition Codex cam out I went from being the only one to one of 12 in the local Meta.
I was actually nor playing when the 3rd edition Codex came out. When I came back in early 5th edition I was hardly noticed other than somewhere saying I was playing an "Old and Beardy Army". Then the 5th edition Codex came out and the “Flavor of the Month” crowd came out and discovered the 5x ML SPAM.
I went from that “Guy who Played Space Wolves” to a “FotM Cheese Monger” when I was still playing my basic 3rd edition list with a 5th edition upgrade.
Then 6th came out and I become “FotM Psychic Cheese Monger”.
I feel the hate so much some times that I don’t go to the Local Not So Friendly Game Store any more.
Is it that bad? I mean it's just a game, no reason to start World War III. Then again I'm of the mindset that if you see something you don't like, you don't discuss it. You don't see me discussing Tau f.ex.
Beaviz81 wrote: Is it that bad? I mean it's just a game, no reason to start World War III. Then again I'm of the mindset that if you see something you don't like, you don't discuss it. You don't see me discussing Tau f.ex.
It can be when you are called TFG before you can finish pull your 1st Grey Hunter Pack out of your storage tray.
And this is from a guy who I had only met 20min before the game.
1.The wolves blew up their home planet like a boss
2.The wolves kicked their ass like a boss
3.The others are upset that there primarch is %100 dead
4.Russ is a boss
5.They dislike vikings
6.The space wolves should actully be the model that the legions are built around, each individual chapter capable of working by itself, free from needing other chapters.
Don't see how their independence is such a good thing, the fact that they're stubborn as hell and don't get along with a lot of other Imperial factions combined with this means that there is more chance of them clashing with other chapters which isn't good for unity at all.
They know what they fight for and will set aside differences for the good of the Imperium though. Grimnar and Azrael put aside their differences and fought Typhus' forces on several planets during the 13th Black Crusade.
Beaviz81 wrote: Is it that bad? I mean it's just a game, no reason to start World War III. Then again I'm of the mindset that if you see something you don't like, you don't discuss it. You don't see me discussing Tau f.ex.
It can be when you are called TFG before you can finish pull your 1st Grey Hunter Pack out of your storage tray.
And this is from a guy who I had only met 20min before the game.
You should have given him a frakking black-eye or force-fed him his figures.
Beaviz81 wrote: Is it that bad? I mean it's just a game, no reason to start World War III. Then again I'm of the mindset that if you see something you don't like, you don't discuss it. You don't see me discussing Tau f.ex.
It can be when you are called TFG before you can finish pull your 1st Grey Hunter Pack out of your storage tray.
And this is from a guy who I had only met 20min before the game.
You should have given him a frakking black-eye or force-fed him his figures.
I though about it, but that would't have solved helped our cause. I jus tabled him, witch i hindsight did not help either.
Beaviz81 wrote: What the hell did Marko do wrong now VD? He was just quoting fluff.
He was tossing around his interpretation which relies on a lot of assumptions to portray his point, whatever that may have been, as fact.
As Omegus said before, "this is not our first rodeo", I'm wise to what's going on.
As for brother riding brother that's from Magnus the Red, AKA Mr. Enemy. It just can't be bought.
"There were no wolves on Fenris... Before we were here."
- A Space Wolf
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kain wrote: One thing I want to know, how does a legion that consists of ten to a hundred thousand space marines that never divided itself drop to one and a half thousand full-fledged battle brothers plus the standard vehicle crews and whatnot who usually aren't' included on the official roster. Their recruitment rates seem to be good and they didn't go through any truly catastrophic losses. Unless the wolves are pulling a fast one on the imperium and each great pack secretly consists of a thousand or more battle brothers.
The Space Wolves did divide itself once, the successor chapter blew up.
They also lost a lot of Marines during the Horus Heresy.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Beaviz81 wrote: It's deliberate. He actually believes the wolves on Fenris came from humans.
even the Emperor himself had to humor wealthy and influential individuals...see Outcast Dead, for example
If he hadn't maybe Horus wouldn't have rebelled. The Emperor was a great general but had no understanding of human nature. Half of his Legions were created from downtrodden, given superhuman abilities, yet still suppose to serve the interest of the former oppressors as opposed to kill them. Its the same thing that happened in the Roman Empire, they create Legions where a sense of egalitarianism thrives and then are surprised when they follow Caesar to overthrow a group of corrupt nobles.
The White Scars and Space Wolves were also loyalists. As is Lion El'Jonson (Kinda), Ferrus Manus, Vulkan, and Corvus Corax. None can really be described as particularly "aristocratic," many of them hailing from Feral Worlds, or just a few steps above.
The traitors? They have Magnus, who fell to a planet of sorcerers and scholars, became their king, and presides over a scholarly, well-cultured Legion. They have Perturabo and the Iron Warriors, Perturabo being a lover of ancient archaeology and history, and is a peerless architect and desired nothing more than to create cities and worlds in much the same manner as Guilliman. They have Lorgar, a scholar like Magnus, more high priest than warrior, who ruled over his civilized world after supplanting the old religion.
VD it came from mister enemy. It shall be laid the same weight as my word when I'm talking about the unsavory shower-scenes for teams i played football against.
I consider Lorgar and Magnus to be more like the philosopher kings of old, more feudalistic than any modern form of elitism(and yes I believe their is a big difference even if its not a moral one). The Wolf being the only one I liked because he lived free, the Emperor afforded him freedom because he needed someone who could act with a free hand, just like he used the Night Lords against mortals he used the Wolves against the astartes.
1.The wolves blew up their home planet like a boss 2.The wolves kicked their ass like a boss 3.The others are upset that there primarch is %100 dead 4.Russ is a boss 5.They dislike vikings 6.The space wolves should actully be the model that the legions are built around, each individual chapter capable of working by itself, free from needing other chapters.
^This, ALL OF THIS. And pratically because, while many users who "don't like" the SW will say otherwise, the Wolves are pratically the Good Guys along with the Salamanders and the Raven Guard (Shriiiiiiiiike!) of the SM Chapters. And yes, is written in the Codex: "in a Galaxy of eternal war, there are heroes" or something like that.
When and were VD? And explain how Leman Russ was reared by a she-wolf with that quote. And please find me where it's stated. And do a proper job like Lynata does (really strange claims must be backed up). I don't mean to come off as rude, but that is something you need to substasiate VD.
^ Thing is, hate is 10x worse then fanboism....
Just try to say something positive (read out of proportion :-)about your favorite legion * blam* hate trolls go out...
We actually had a targeted troll bait on B&C, just to see how people respond to a certain comments...It's was enlightening :-) * and funny too *....
Honorable in this case meant treason, naïveté, and the responsibility for billions of deaths.
“The Wolves had thwarted us. You could look at that as the actions of a noble brotherhood, seeking to see the galaxy through a moral purity that simply didn’t exist, even if it deserved to.
It would be more realistic, if somewhat less kind, to remember that the Wolves must have known how we’d react. The Inquisition was never going to sit idle while such a horrendous secret spread through the Imperium.
The Grey Knights and our Inquisitorial masters pulled every trigger in the months that followed. I would never deny that.
But the Wolves must have known what we’d do. The Inquisition’s hand had been forced. It could be argued then, that the Wolves shared some of the blame for the billions of lives we ended after Armageddon.
I don’t blame them, myself. They are Adeptus Astartes, bred to be weapons first and reasoning souls second. They would consider it the coward’s way – the way of the immoral enemy – to prevent a greater evil by committing a lesser evil. There’s honour in that. There’s a simple, ignorant, honour.
They are, to be blunt, not pragmatic creatures. There’s no room for pragmatism in honour.
But we were born, schooled, trained and sworn to see a greater picture, beyond personal honour and the lives of a few million souls. Our mandate was to defend the species itself, and the lives of billions were always of greater value than the millions.
I admire the Wolves. I even forgive them for their narrow-minded, stubborn honour. I hold no grudge that their actions meant we were forced to silence ten billion innocent voices instead of a few million potentially corrupt ones.
But the Inquisition is not so forgiving.”
Because it was a Space Wolf that said "There were no wolves on Fenris before we were here".
A. There are no wolves on Fenris that aren't Space Wolves.
B. Failed applicants or those who fall to berserker rages transform into wolf-like creatures.
C. Space Wolves ride wolf-like creatures into battle.
Do the math, folks, it's so easy even a Space Wolf could do it.
A. There are no wolves on Fenris that aren't Space Wolves.
B. Failed applicants or those who fall to berserker rages transform into wolf-like creatures.
C. Space Wolves ride wolf-like creatures into battle.
Do the math, folks, it's so easy even a Space Wolf could do it.
A. Yes there was - Russ was raised by one
B Yes - In Wulfen
C Yes - In worse case scenario they ride the mutated, first colonists....But this was Magnus's in-universe observation
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Beaviz81 wrote: Ehm the wolf-thingy is a joke, not biology. I mean come-on it's not really funny.
Disregard it, it was a wise-crack from Magnus. They doesn't mutate into wolves. It's like me claiming Grane's coach performed statutory rape or people from Holt are inbred. That speech from an enemy, and it must be treated like such.
DarthMarko wrote: Yet, the "I" was incopetent (political) and some of the population, which witnesed the event was left...So say goodbye to absolute measures theory...
The entire population was "left". The dispute was over the soldiers who fought the Archenemy.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Russ being raised by wolves is a legend. And they do mutate into wolves/wulfen. You don't wonder why their etiquete calls for sniffing each other's butts upon meeting?
DarthMarko wrote: Yet, the "I" was incopetent (political) and some of the population, which witnesed the event was left...So say goodbye to absolute measures theory...
The entire population was "left". The dispute was over the soldiers who fought the Archenemy.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Russ being raised by wolves is a legend. And they do mutate into wolves/wulfen. You don't wonder why their etiquete calls for sniffing each other's butts upon meeting?
Beaviz81 wrote: When and were VD? And explain how Leman Russ was reared by a she-wolf with that quote. And please find me where it's stated. And do a proper job like Lynata does (really strange claims must be backed up). I don't mean to come off as rude, but that is something you need to substasiate VD.
Spoiler:
The wolf maintained its grip until the bull gave up its last,
trembling rumble, then it let go. Blood dripped from its snout. It
padded around the massive corpse twice, moving quickly, head
low, sniffing.
It stopped beside the head of its kill, and raised its own head,
ears upright, to stare at Hawser. Its eyes were golden and blackpinned.
Hawser stared back. He knew if he tried to get back on
his feet, the wolf would still be taller than him.
‘There are no wolves on Fenris.’
Hawser looked up. Longfang was standing beside him, staring
at the wolf.
‘That’s evidently not true at all,’ Hawser replied in a tiny voice.
Longfang grinned down at him.
‘Try to keep up, skjald. There were no wolves on Fenris until
we got here.’
Longfang looked back at the wolf.
‘Twice he’s helped protect you,’ he said.
‘What?’ asked Hawser.
‘He had a different name last time you were in his company,’
said Longfang. ‘Then, he was called Brom.’
The black wolf turned and ran for the forest, accelerating as only
a mammalian apex predator can. It vanished into the enormous
darkness under the evergreens.
After a few seconds, Hawser saw its eyes staring out of the
blackness at them: luminous, gold and black-pinned.
It took him another few moments to realise that there were another
ten thousand pairs of eyes watching them from the shadows
of the forest.
Bam. From chapter eight of Prospero Burns, near the end of it. I can't give you a page number because I have it via ebook, in pdf form.
As for the story of Leman Russ, there are two main possibilities:
A. It's a myth.
B. He was raised by the original, mutated human settlers of Fenris.
So its totally okay for you to infer or fabricate details out of a single line of text, but when faced with a whole paragraph of narrative it's all jokes. You're so biased and disingenuous, nothing you say has any value.
For what it's worth, it is a fact that more than the occasional Space Wolf mutates into a wolf-like monster, is kept under the Fang, and unleashed when needed for battle.
Beaviz81 wrote: When and were VD? And explain how Leman Russ was reared by a she-wolf with that quote. And please find me where it's stated. And do a proper job like Lynata does (really strange claims must be backed up). I don't mean to come off as rude, but that is something you need to substasiate VD.
Spoiler:
The wolf maintained its grip until the bull gave up its last,
trembling rumble, then it let go. Blood dripped from its snout. It
padded around the massive corpse twice, moving quickly, head
low, sniffing.
It stopped beside the head of its kill, and raised its own head,
ears upright, to stare at Hawser. Its eyes were golden and blackpinned.
Hawser stared back. He knew if he tried to get back on
his feet, the wolf would still be taller than him.
‘There are no wolves on Fenris.’
Hawser looked up. Longfang was standing beside him, staring
at the wolf.
‘That’s evidently not true at all,’ Hawser replied in a tiny voice.
Longfang grinned down at him.
‘Try to keep up, skjald. There were no wolves on Fenris until
we got here.’
Longfang looked back at the wolf.
‘Twice he’s helped protect you,’ he said.
‘What?’ asked Hawser.
‘He had a different name last time you were in his company,’
said Longfang. ‘Then, he was called Brom.’
The black wolf turned and ran for the forest, accelerating as only
a mammalian apex predator can. It vanished into the enormous
darkness under the evergreens.
After a few seconds, Hawser saw its eyes staring out of the
blackness at them: luminous, gold and black-pinned.
It took him another few moments to realise that there were another
ten thousand pairs of eyes watching them from the shadows
of the forest.
Bam. From chapter eight of Prospero Burns, near the end of it. I can't give you a page number because I have it via ebook, in pdf form.
As for the story of Leman Russ, there are two main possibilities:
A. It's a myth.
B. He was raised by the original, mutated human settlers of Fenris.
Anyway, may I have everyone's concession please?
Hmmm, perhaps, but all I see is hints and misdirections and alternative interpretations... They were fething Hawser from the moment he stepped on Fenris....
They even couldn't explain terran vs fenrisian (canix helix) connection....
Okay a guy grinning while telling a story is my argument for it being a joke. It's sort of like me telling you that German's greet each-other with sieg heils. It's a joke nothing more nothing less.
Beaviz81 wrote: Okay a guy grinning while telling a story is my argument for it being a joke. It's sort of like me telling you that German's greet each-other with sieg heils. It's a joke nothing more nothing less.
Of course it could be acceptance, that he knows it's possible for all to become like that should things fall before them.
This guy, right here. Literally transforms into a giant, mutated Wolf Creature. This is not hyperbole, this is not a transformation like the wulfen. This is where his power armor bursts apart and he becomes a giant, freaking, werewolf.
"Wolf-Traits" doesn't cover it, and it's very likely they can fully shift if they can grow far taller, stronger, faster, grow actual claws that can rend power armor and TANKS, and be able to tear open a Land Raider.
Also in this universe, a Primarch was born with Fully Functional Wings. Somehow biology doesn't seem like it matters beyond a few circumstances!
You are forgeting Freki and Geri (who fought at Russ's side) and mama she-wolf , there are Wulfen legends which predate SW, and there were gene tampered colonists....
Ooo, and there is codex/index astartes which specificaly states that humans killed his wolf mother IIRC....
O there is guy on B&C who thinks this
Magnus suggested that the only reason you see a wolf is you expect to see a wolf. I always figured that to the thousand Sons they were warp spirits that had taken animal form. To the Vlka Fenrika they are the spirits of slain battle brothers that have found there way back to fenris. :
t could be put into prospero burnes conversation, and life and death circle theory ... However I think it's rather dumb....
Damn this teasers...I think BL is messing with us too often...
I disregard things which go against basic biology. Bipedal creatures just don't adopt the gait of a four-legged creature. That is insanity. And Sanguinius was a freak, he had some awesome chest-muscles to pull that off.
Had Sanguinus been a swan then I guess people would protest. And his communication was though hissing and drowning people for no good reason.
Wolf-like doesn't mean being a wolf. I'm actually as baffled as Marko that people are arguing this point as it seem like a point of insanity.
Beaviz81 wrote: I disregard things which go against basic biology. Bipedal creatures just don't adopt the gait of a four-legged creature. That is insanity. And Sanguinius was a freak, he had some awesome chest-muscles to pull that off.
Had Sanguinus been a swan then I guess people would protest. And his communication was though hissing and drowning people for no good reason.
Wolf-like doesn't mean being a wolf. I'm actually as baffled as Marko that people are arguing this point as it seem like a point of insanity.
Because there is a guy who literally becomes a MC wolf creature (not "traits or anything resembling those" Because it certainly is not A slight degree or amount, as of a quality that bursts out of his power armor, (Which considering the strength of Power Armor..) becomes able to rip Land Raiders (With Smash at S10) He gains the ability to fleet (most likely because his body has changed to accommodate it)
I'm quite baffled at the denial at this.There's an example right there of something going beyond "Wolf-Traits"
Also if you dis-regard things that go against basic biology, you must ignore chaos, orks, and eldar. And must not see many things of space marines considering all those "Non Biological functions" that their bodies have within them.
Unless there's a species of creature out there that can eat brains, and gain knowledge..Would be kinda cool if you know any.
Beaviz81 wrote: Yeah by adding muscle, not changing species.
Which would break basic biology, as muscle mass would not increase one from a standard T4, to T6, as muscle mass does not stop bullets in any meaningful way.
Omegus wrote: Wait, didn't you just dismiss biology earlier because the Warp exists?
Space Wolves are werewolves, some of them turn into freakish monsters. They used these monsters on Prospero and the Battle for the Fang.
You're basically just putting your fingers in your ears and going "lalalalalalicanthearyouandidontliketoreadlalalawolfsrkewllala".
Your self-delusion would be funny if it wasn't so sad.
You are twisting my words. Stop doing that, I'm using basic biology to defend the Space Wolves. And you are launching it's WH40k. at me, Crazy things happens.
Beaviz81 wrote: Yeah by adding muscle, not changing species.
Which would break basic biology, as muscle mass would not increase one from a standard T4, to T6, as muscle mass does not stop bullets in any meaningful way.
I'm not talking effect on the TT, and how tdoes this affect gait in anyway, stop substituting reality for you own.
Beaviz81 wrote: Yeah by adding muscle, not changing species.
Need I remind you that in this universe a ten ton Laius Horror can hide completely undetected in a seventy kilo guardsmen without killing him right away? Expecting warhammer to be hard sci-fi is like trying to prove human intelligence by using yahoo answers and YouTube comments as your sample pool.
I'm not talking effect on the TT, and how tdoes this affect gait in anyway, stop substituting reality for you own.
This comment coming from you? Honestly it's quite hilarious in some easy to notice, Ironic ways.
Then bring your proof, you've got nothing backing you but basic biology (Which doesn't mean what you think it means). In a universe where colonists have altered genes to become more wolf-like, to going from two legged to four legged where this is listed as FACT.
I'm sorry, but you need something besides "basic biology" to hide behind.
I am a paleontologist's intern by trade. I'm pretty sure that I know my stuff. And I can safely say that 40k is really not the place to try and force conformity to real world scientific laws. Not when metaphysical concepts like hatred can take physical form and disembowel you with a burning sword made from solidified anger.
Yes, and I have a PharmD, which doesn't qualify me on judging space werewolf physiology. I'm not sure what Beavis' qualifications are, but I doubt they lend him that authority either. But who needs the ability to form a cogent thought when you can just yell nonsense in all caps.
That argument are better, though I still think you all must be clinically insane to interpret basic biology in the way. Let me teach you a little.
You can breed an animal to look like something else like the flying squirrels of Australia and America, yet they came apart several million years ago. It took mankind over 100k. years to evolve from monkeys (heck the gorilla is like 2 million years apart from us, try to guess how long the wolf is). And then they for unknown reasons mutated into wolves? Does this make any sense to you? Runs the hatred of the Space Wolves this deep? Now I have given you an excellent scientific reason, as well as a good lecture in basic biology you obviously needed.
You will cease your condescension at this very moment, and your biology lesson sucked, you're a terrible teacher.
I am well-aware of the physical implausibility of humans turning into wolves, just as I am well-aware of the impossibilities of faster than light travel, or the law of conservation of matter and energy.
All are defied in 40k, a fictional setting. This is a setting where there are giant fungus monkeys who can survive their brain being melted (As seen from the Ork that fought the Dark Angels Chief-Librarian), yet the notion of humans being forcibly mutated into quadrupeds with fur and fangs is what breaks your willing suspension of disbelief?
40k is not and never has been a setting that considered actual science anything more than loose guidelines at best.
Beaviz, you see that tiny speck way way way high up?
That is the point whipping completely over you.
You can't logically pull out "well it is just basic science" in the 40k setting because if you do, you'll need to handle explaining everything else there. It just doesn't work, and you can't turn it on and off when you feel like it.
FTL might one day happen, I don't speculate about what the future might bring.
My lesson is important to take heed of as you don't have the time to do it in 40.000 years only. Heck even the Eldar and Dark Eldar are still basically the same. Humans haven't mutated into anything more animal-like than the Ogryns and Ratlings. That's even a stretch for me to believe in.
I don't see basic rules of physics having changed, which means it's completely impossible for humans to morph into wolves and none of the official art show it.
It's still there in the normal form, so ipso facto, the mutations you are wishing for couldn't happen. And for all the fantastic things happening men changing into animals doesn't happen because this is lego-genetics, where you disregard time and space.
Beaviz81 wrote: It's still there in the normal form, so ipso facto, the mutations you are wishing for couldn't happen. And for all the fantastic things happening men changing into animals doesn't happen because this is lego-genetics, where you disregard time and space.
And I see you are choosing to stubbornly ignore anything that is really undermining your point, huh?
Just gonna go with that?
Okay, how about something a little more suited for the immediate point:
And Chaos Spawn are known for their breeding and for being stable? And for being a species instead of a mesh of mortal and demonic matter? Are you suggesting the wolves on Fenris is that?
As for the point. Come with something I can accept not something that seems like you are substituting reality for your own and thrown the book about biology out the window. The basic fabric of the things remains and I prefer a logical interpretation if in doubt. Instead of the more fantastic ones like the IOM being stupid evil and sending ships into space with finite food-stores and such.
I am a paleontologist's intern by trade. I'm pretty sure that I know my stuff. And I can safely say that 40k is really not the place to try and force conformity to real world scientific laws. Not when metaphysical concepts like hatred can take physical form and disembowel you with a burning sword made from solidified anger.
And that sword is born and a stable species who can breed with other swords?
I don't have a problem with Space Wolves, I have a problem with their fans. I like SW fluff, but 9 out of 10 SW fans I have ever met in person seem more interested in them because they drink and brawl a lot. So to take SW fans' word for it, the Space Wolves are the obnoxious frat boys of 40k.
Beaviz81 wrote: Changing species can't happen VD, it have been tried, it led to death.
Space Marines are considered a different species by many Biologis in the Imperium. Chapters of Space Marines have been purged for rampant mutation. The Wolves fluff has always had the Canis Helix overcome some aspirants, and the wulfen transformation has been around almost as long. There are mentions of these mutations in every recent BL novel.
Seriously, are you really this dense, or are you just trolling? If the former, you are very aptly named; if the latter, you're doing a masterful job.
Watching the Game of Thrones recording from tonight, it occurs to me that the Space Wolves are very much like the Starks, letting their sense of honor and nobility dictate courses of action that even a child can see are foolish. The main difference is, the Starks paid for their naïveté with their lives; with the Space Wolves, it's the Imperium that bears the burden.
Agreed, the Space Wolves are much like the Starks, they could actually be a planet of Starks. Yet I haven't seen the Starks turning into wolves. I would have watched Game of Thrones more hadn't it been for the 2/3 of every episode that is nausea-fuel.
I'd very much like to use their codex, as it does nearly everything C:SM does, simply better.
Ultimately, though, I just find their "werewolf space Vikings who ride wolves into battle while drunk and talk like dwarves" schtick to be far too overdone even by 40K standards.
Beaviz81 wrote: Changing species can't happen VD, it have been tried, it led to death.
You mean in a setting where one kind of spore can make grots, orks, squiggoths, and mushrooms all from the same DNA code?
Well this could be due to
1) Ecophenotypic variation
2) Differential expression of genes
3) Combination of the two
It is by far, not the stupidest xenobiology, but then again since there is no canon you could go by the 2nd edition fluff which is different in regard to Orks
I think we're pretty much done here. And I disagree, he contributed quite a bit by providing the perfect example of a painfully obtuse, deranged Space Wolf fanatic.
Beaviz81 wrote: That's fanfiction. I prefer science-facts and avoid needless fiction if it can be avoided.
You seem to be under the impression that you can hold 40k to real world physics all the time when you have guys going around shrinking entire armies to fit in his cabinet.
Beaviz81 wrote: Give me the proof then. It seems ridiculous.
That is with links and everything, Lynata-style.
Yeah no, sorry, but I went through the trouble of scrounging through my ebook copy of Prospero Burns for this one specific quote which says exactly what I have been claiming.
You're being disrespectful by casually tossing aside the proof offered, simply because you don't like it. And that's fine, not liking it I mean. But to sit there and disregard the effort one puts into providing the proof that you asked for is the greatest dishonor; that you had to go on rants concerning "SCIENCE!1111!!!!11!" while insulting the intelligence of those vastly more well-informed than you only further compounds that.
So no, I gave you the quote, the book, the chapter, and its approximate location in said chapter. Find it yourself.
I don't question your intelligence, I question your sanity. I have called you insane, not stupid. Even though I find it puzzling how enlightened human beings turn the back on science, and I'm reading the fifth edition Space Wolves codex as we speak. Still haven't found the magic phrase that says Space Wolves turns into wolves for no good reason whatsoever.
Beaviz81 wrote: I don't question your intelligence, I question your sanity. I have called you insane, not stupid. Even though I find it puzzling how enlightened human beings turn the back on science, and I'm reading the fifth edition Space Wolves codex as we speak. Still haven't found the magic phrase that says Space Wolves turns into wolves for no good reason whatsoever.
Sanity is for the weak.
And Space Wolf fanboys who ignore proof that they have been given tend to be insane.
Sanity is for the weak. And Space Wolf fanboys who ignore proof that they have been given.
What proof? That Wolves are barbarian in many behaviors? Never said otherwise. BUT, they are more, and when I say more I mean MORE, efficient than many Chapters. And they could kick pretty much every other chapter's arse, but I think they would lose against Black Templar and the Sons of Sanguinius (Blood Angels, Angels Encarmine etc etc etc).
Beaviz81 wrote: I don't question your intelligence, I question your sanity. I have called you insane, not stupid. Even though I find it puzzling how enlightened human beings turn the back on science, and I'm reading the fifth edition Space Wolves codex as we speak. Still haven't found the magic phrase that says Space Wolves turns into wolves for no good reason whatsoever.
Sanity is for the weak.
And Space Wolf fanboys who ignore proof that they have been given tend to be insane.
I accept it as one of the many contradicting possibilities which BL has presented, over and over again...
No matter how silly this sounds, I could really even be that theory about "spirit of fallen brothers" working as tutlaries ( because of the life circle on Fenris) or not to mention a joke to feth Hawser....
Anyway take it as you like....But this is just too silly to be true (IMO)....or perhaps not ???
Yep, they could, but certainly... nah. Fair fight, IMHO.
BUT, SW were created with the objective of being the EMPRAH executioners. Maybe this place them somewhat a little higher than the UM.
The Sons of Sanguinius are very, and I mean VERY, bonded. If you attack the BA, expect their successors chapters behind your back, 'cause an offense to one of 'em is an offense to all of 'em (quote 5th edition codex).
Black Templar have the Numbers, they're 5000/6000 marine vs the actual 3000 of the SW. 2:1
DarthMarko wrote: I accept it as one of the many contradicting possibilities which BL has presented, over and over again...
No matter how silly this sounds, I could really even be that theory about "spirit of fallen brothers" working as tutlaries ( because of the life circle on Fenris) or not to mention a joke to feth Hawser....
Anyway take it as you like....But this is just too silly to be true (IMO)....or perhaps not ???
I can accept that.
What frustrated me was the notion that no evidence at all had been given, and then the bizarre attempt to disprove my evidence with science.
Now seriously V_D...why do you think BL puts that kind of teasers? Not just this, missing legions etc.
For example - when Magnus travels back to Terra and losing his strength, then that benevolent spirit gives him a ride, majority of people say "IT WAS TZEENCH, with a balloon full of deamons".....
I say nay - it could really be just a benevolent spirit who was spotted by Tzeench in a particular time moment.....
Orblivion wrote: I don't have a problem with Space Wolves, I have a problem with their fans. I like SW fluff, but 9 out of 10 SW fans I have ever met in person seem more interested in them because they drink and brawl a lot. So to take SW fans' word for it, the Space Wolves are the obnoxious frat boys of 40k.
Well, I think degustibus describe it. I like brawl, I like vikings, I like wolves, I like more their behavior than the other chapters Monk-like style, I don't like beer but meh. So this make me what? Only 'cause I like Space Marine who behave more human-like (or savages, if you like this more)?
The missing Legions thing I think is just there to get the fanboys and the occasional heretical fangirl bonnerz, sparking discussion for something they will never resolve, and convincing people to buy their products in the vain hope otherwise (See: The Sigillite).
"There are no Wolves on Fenris" seems to be a specific hook on the story of the Spehss Wulves and Thousand Sons themselves, which might actually get resolved in a future release. Hard to tell.
Void__Dragon wrote:
What frustrated me was the notion that no evidence at all had been given, and then the bizarre attempt to disprove my evidence with science.
"Frustated"... wow o_o it's too much for a hobby. Back in topic it's not that I don't want to give this "point" to you, I simply follow what the Codex says. The Codex says Y, I believe in Y, but I know that Wolves are barbarians in SOME ways, but I also know that for me they're what a Space Marine should be. Opinions can't be changed by a piece of paper (I'm a book lover, so don't think I hate books or something). Also Codex > BL novels in canonicity (is that even a word? Dunno...)
DarthMarko wrote:Now seriously V_D...why do you think BL puts that kind of teasers? Not just this, missing legions etc.
Their objective is to make a book appealing, so they put in all they have. And usually they make excellent jobs.
IMHO
Orblivion wrote: I don't have a problem with Space Wolves, I have a problem with their fans. I like SW fluff, but 9 out of 10 SW fans I have ever met in person seem more interested in them because they drink and brawl a lot. So to take SW fans' word for it, the Space Wolves are the obnoxious frat boys of 40k.
Well, I think degustibus describe it.
I like brawl, I like vikings, I like wolves, I like more their behavior than the other chapters Monk-like style, I don't like beer but meh.
So this make me what? Only 'cause I like Space Marine who behave more human-like (or savages, if you like this more)?
Given, some other Marine chapters also have some heavy metal looks to them like funeral doom for grim Dark Angels or power metal for the flowery Blood Angels, but I'm more into the heathen themed metal music. Especially if it has black metal influence like Moonsorrow or Nokturnal Mortum.
Basically, I associate SW with metal that is sung in a language other than English and contains folk instruments or keyboards that sound like folk instruments.
Basically, I associate SW with metal that is sung in a language other than English and contains folk instruments or keyboards that sound like folk instruments.
Just meaning to say one song : "Of wolf and man"...
like from the Zeppelin - "Immigrant song"
But yes norse pagan metal fits best....a little "flop" by me
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Haskell wrote: 13th Company... eh... we don't talk about them ;D
But they come to aid - if bad things happen to their little brothers....
Well-drawn comic perhaps. Well-written...eeeehhhhhHHhhhHHHhhhHhhh. This is not really a jab at SW, but every time I read that comic, the more issues I find with it.
Well-drawn comic perhaps. Well-written...eeeehhhhhHHhhhHHHhhhHhhh. This is not really a jab at SW, but every time I read that comic, the more issues I find with it.
Well, it is made by a SW fan, of course it have obvious bias .
Well, it is made by a SW fan, of course it have obvious bias .
Again, it really isn't about bias. It's more about me wondering if this person has ever met a woman in...ever. The Sisters are amazingly poorly written, pretty much ranging from "loud but ultimately helpless" to "silent and helpless" or even the dramatic "aggressive for a bit THEN helpless." It's not so much a pro-SW bias, but a sense of needing babes to rescue, and so the Sisters characters are rendered utterly useless, pretty much damsels in distress for the big manly men and their cock-guns to save.
It's good action and the art is fantastic, don't get me wrong, it is a cut above most 40k fan comics. But it could have been so much better in the writing department. Instead it is just really boring and overused tropes.
Well, it is made by a SW fan, of course it have obvious bias .
Again, it really isn't about bias. It's more about me wondering if this person has ever met a woman in...ever. The Sisters are amazingly poorly written, pretty much ranging from "loud but ultimately helpless" to "silent and helpless" or even the dramatic "aggressive for a bit THEN helpless." It's not so much a pro-SW bias, but a sense of needing babes to rescue, and so the Sisters characters are rendered utterly useless, pretty much damsels in distress for the big manly men and their cock-guns to save.
It's good action and the art is fantastic, don't get me wrong, it is a cut above most 40k fan comics. But it could have been so much better in the writing department. Instead it is just really boring and overused tropes.
Perhaps a metroid crossover is needed to show them a power armored woman who could obliterate primarchs.
(I'm serious, her basic guns have terawatt/kiloton level output)
Well, it is made by a SW fan, of course it have obvious bias .
Again, it really isn't about bias. It's more about me wondering if this person has ever met a woman in...ever. The Sisters are amazingly poorly written, pretty much ranging from "loud but ultimately helpless" to "silent and helpless" or even the dramatic "aggressive for a bit THEN helpless." It's not so much a pro-SW bias, but a sense of needing babes to rescue, and so the Sisters characters are rendered utterly useless, pretty much damsels in distress for the big manly men and their cock-guns to save.
It's good action and the art is fantastic, don't get me wrong, it is a cut above most 40k fan comics. But it could have been so much better in the writing department. Instead it is just really boring and overused tropes.
Agreed, though we don't see the Sisters very much either after the battle against the EC. For the main sister, is another whole story.
Well, it is made by a SW fan, of course it have obvious bias .
Again, it really isn't about bias. It's more about me wondering if this person has ever met a woman in...ever. The Sisters are amazingly poorly written, pretty much ranging from "loud but ultimately helpless" to "silent and helpless" or even the dramatic "aggressive for a bit THEN helpless." It's not so much a pro-SW bias, but a sense of needing babes to rescue, and so the Sisters characters are rendered utterly useless, pretty much damsels in distress for the big manly men and their cock-guns to save.
It's good action and the art is fantastic, don't get me wrong, it is a cut above most 40k fan comics. But it could have been so much better in the writing department. Instead it is just really boring and overused tropes.
Agreed, though we don't see the Sisters very much either after the battle against the EC. For the main sister, is another whole story.
Perhaps a metroid crossover is needed to show them a power armored woman who could obliterate primarchs.
(I'm serious, her basic guns have terawatt/kiloton level output)
Primarchs are demi-gods, your argoument is invalid
Samus is the last heir to the warrior tradition of a civilization that dominated multiple galaxies and functioned at a superhuman level on a planet with over 800 times the mass of the earth. Where is your demigod now?
Samus is the last heir to the warrior tradition of a civilization that dominated multiple galaxies and functioned at a superhuman level on a planet with over 800 times the mass of the earth. Where is your demigod now?
Behind your and Samus backs, waitin' for you to turn and THEN obliterate you
Samus is the last heir to the warrior tradition of a civilization that dominated multiple galaxies and functioned at a superhuman level on a planet with over 800 times the mass of the earth. Where is your demigod now?
Behind your and Samus backs, waitin' for you to turn and THEN obliterate you
And then she one shots them with the weakest weapon in metroid.
And then a single space pirate obliterates an entire space marine chapter and calmly shrugs off Titan fire.
Metroid just has 40k beaten hands down in biggatons.
Agreed, though we don't see the Sisters very much either after the battle against the EC. For the main sister, is another whole story.
From what we've seen, I'd disagree that she is another story. She is STILL a damsel in distress 99% of the time. And it is such a tone-breaking thing. She is a Sister of BATTLE and most of the time, even in the middle of a fight, she is either looking scared or just clueless. She has her occasional little "RAARRR ANGRY SUPER SAIYAN" thing, but please. That is used pretty much to keep her alive long enough for the big manly man to come do the REAL fight. It's dumb. The rest of her activities are her being protected by Brick Flanksteak the Space Wolf and being all passed out.
And the Sister Superior? Even worse. She's supposed to be one of the best...until she instantly corrupts and goes full demon in the space of what? 0 seconds? Bullcrap.
From what we've seen, I'd disagree that she is another story. She is STILL a damsel in distress 99% of the time. And it is such a tone-breaking thing. She is a Sister of BATTLE and most of the time, even in the middle of a fight, she is either looking scared or just clueless. She has her occasional little "RAARRR ANGRY SUPER SAIYAN" thing, but please. That is used pretty much to keep her alive long enough for the big manly man to come do the REAL fight. It's dumb. The rest of her activities are her being protected by Brick Flanksteak the Space Wolf and being all passed out.
And the Sister Superior? Even worse. She's supposed to be one of the best...until she instantly corrupts and goes full demon in the space of what? 0 seconds? Bullcrap.
You misunderstood. With "another whole story" I mean we see her like always, but she is still a damsel in distress, while the SoB were seen only during the EC fight.
You misunderstood. With "another whole story" I mean we see her like always, but she is still a damsel in distress, while the SoB were seen only during the EC fight.
Does she STOP being a SoB at some point? I'm sorry, but I don't follow you.
Agreed, though we don't see the Sisters very much either after the battle against the EC. For the main sister, is another whole story.
From what we've seen, I'd disagree that she is another story. She is STILL a damsel in distress 99% of the time. And it is such a tone-breaking thing. She is a Sister of BATTLE and most of the time, even in the middle of a fight, she is either looking scared or just clueless. She has her occasional little "RAARRR ANGRY SUPER SAIYAN" thing, but please. That is used pretty much to keep her alive long enough for the big manly man to come do the REAL fight. It's dumb. The rest of her activities are her being protected by Brick Flanksteak the Space Wolf and being all passed out.
And the Sister Superior? Even worse. She's supposed to be one of the best...until she instantly corrupts and goes full demon in the space of what? 0 seconds? Bullcrap.
Does she STOP being a SoB at some point? I'm sorry, but I don't follow you.
Let's put it this way:
the SoB force is seen only in the battle vs the ECs, so the fact that they acted like damsels is ok, 'cause we see them only ONCE,
The problem is that the main Sister, we see her always, and the fact that she quite always act like a damsel is no good.
Basically: I agree with you.
Let's put it this way:
the SoB force is seen only in the battle vs the ECs, so the fact that they acted like damsels is ok, 'cause we see them only ONCE,
The problem is that the main Sister, we see her always, and the fact that she quite always act like a damsel is no good.
Basically: I agree with you.
Ahhh okay. Gotcha.
But yeah, call it my own writing experience kicking in a bias, but I despise the "oh they are so traumatized they never speak" kind of trait in a main character. In this case, I get the vibe that the author pretty much was planning it out and said something like:
"Welp, I have a babe clinging into Chunk Meatmuscle but I do not want to introduce any chances at all to develop her in any meaningful way. And I don't want to push my comfort zone by having her possess any personality traits more complex than that of a blow-up sex doll...SILENT SHE IS SOOOOOOO TRAUMATIZED! I AM A GENIUS"
But yeah, call it my own writing experience kicking in a bias, but I despise the "oh they are so traumatized they never speak" kind of trait in a main character. In this case, I get the vibe that the author pretty much was planning it out and said something like:
"Welp, I have a babe clinging into Chunk Meatmuscle but I do not want to introduce any chances at all to develop her in any meaningful way. And I don't want to push my comfort zone by having her possess any personality traits more complex than that of a blow-up sex doll...SILENT SHE IS SOOOOOOO TRAUMATIZED! I AM A GENIUS"
Agreed, but the main Sister is literally the Sister of the Blood Claw main character. So no sex doll or something like that
But yeah, call it my own writing experience kicking in a bias, but I despise the "oh they are so traumatized they never speak" kind of trait in a main character. In this case, I get the vibe that the author pretty much was planning it out and said something like:
"Welp, I have a babe clinging into Chunk Meatmuscle but I do not want to introduce any chances at all to develop her in any meaningful way. And I don't want to push my comfort zone by having her possess any personality traits more complex than that of a blow-up sex doll...SILENT SHE IS SOOOOOOO TRAUMATIZED! I AM A GENIUS"
Agreed, but the main Sister is literally the Sister of the Blood Claw main character. So no sex doll or something like that
But yeah, call it my own writing experience kicking in a bias, but I despise the "oh they are so traumatized they never speak" kind of trait in a main character. In this case, I get the vibe that the author pretty much was planning it out and said something like:
"Welp, I have a babe clinging into Chunk Meatmuscle but I do not want to introduce any chances at all to develop her in any meaningful way. And I don't want to push my comfort zone by having her possess any personality traits more complex than that of a blow-up sex doll...SILENT SHE IS SOOOOOOO TRAUMATIZED! I AM A GENIUS"
Agreed, but the main Sister is literally the Sister of the Blood Claw main character. So no sex doll or something like that
The sisters of battle recruit from Fenris?
From the flashback of the main Wolf, yes. She pratically can't talk 'cause she was hurt in a brawl (IIRC she even was quite killed when they sliced her throat, but maybe this is wrong), and the brother saved her. This BEFORE he became a Vlyka Fenryka.
The ire that Space Wolves fans attract really irritates me to be honest, but then, I don't think it's exactly wrong either. There does seem to be a lot of fanboy-ism; probably more so than with other factions.
I've often wondered if the Space Wolf/Thousand Son divide is quite so prominent on other boards too, on that note...
It's a bit of a vicious circle; SW's get more flak because their fans are quick to jump to their defense, and their fans are quick to jump to their defense because the SW draw a lot of flak.
But although the SW were partially at fault for razing Prospero (remember, Horus changed the Emperor's orders from "bring me Magnus" to "kill them all" before passing it on to Russ!), had they stayed their hand, the Heresy would still have happened - Horus was already corrupted at that point.
Whether the 1k Sons would still have fallen at some other, more inopportune point or whether their continued loyalty would have altered the outcome of the Heresy or would have made no difference at all is up for grabs.
[nitpick mode]Although the Wolves don't particularly like the Inquisition - at least when it meddles in their affairs - their beef over the shenanigans post-Armageddon was not with the Inquisition; it was the Administratum's decision to sterilise and enslave the planet's population and IG forces present.[/nitpick mode]
I think that a lot of the hate for space wolves comes from the "why not me too" syndrome.
From a fluff (Ie. BL) perspective, the SW have gotten a lot of attention. More so than most other Chapters. The problem is, the stories were told by different authors and then to make it worse, they are not even written from the same perspective. That and BL authors seem to go a little OT because there is no central body for doing checks and balances of who does what.
Now all of this attention breeds a bit of jealousy. Why isn't (insert your favorite chapter here) getting some attention? Why does the SW need another novel? So you start picking it apart, and its so easy to do because of reason stated in the above paragraph. This book says this, this book says that, blah blah blah. And its easy to pick out the faults because of the wildly different styles/opinions/focus of the different authors. Now if (insert your favorite Chapter) got their own book, you would have something else to read, something to gloss over with your own set of Rose Colored glasses. And we do that, because this is fantasy. It is so easy to pick favorites. We all want to root for the Hero, even if that hero is a bastard. But more importantly, by damn it, we all want it to be OUR hero. Its so easy to forgive the bad writing, inconsistent plot points, world fluff breaking events when its OUR guy doing it. But when its not our guy or hasn't been our guy for a long time, its easy to slide into negative mode.
From a codex/army view point. Yes the SW codex is stronger than the SM one. Nothing more to say here. Why are SW better than my guys? Ohh god that is so cheap, why can't my guys do that? blah blah blah. Same color, different horse. Hey, we all want to win, we all want to believe we play on an even field. This is GW, we dont, it is what it is. But again, the base of the problem is why not my guys?
But for myself, I like the SW. They are the only SM faction I've ever liked.
I like that they are vikings in space. I see them as totem type worshipers as such wearing animal pelts, runes, etc. all work well. I like that they have a mutation fault, I like that they have an entire company devoted to that mutation and the super natural effects that it brings. I like that their powers may in fact be shamanic in nature as apposed to sorcery. I get that there are some of your out there who refuse to believe that it can be anything but sorcery. Because some book somewhere said so and thats what your clinging too. And your right to do it, but there are other just as poorly written and just as concrete that says that they may in fact be different. Nobody is going to convince the other guy, because the truth of the matter is your both right.
40K is not GWs universe, its your universe. Your the one who has to spend countless hours engaged in it, its you who allows for the scale of the engagement, its you who has to fit it all into the narrative and it has to make sense for you. Otherwise, your probably wasting a lot of time engaged in something that doesn't bring you any pleasure and what the hell would be the point of that? The written fluff for it is merely guidelines nothing more. Its something to fill in the dark shadows in the corners, its to give hints of what may be. It offers a general time line of events of which you can insert your own story to help give the whole thing a bit of cohesion. But never ever believe that your private narrative is any less important than those of published authors.
In short, the SW are what we each choose to make of them, buy focusing on what we like. If you choose to focus only on the negative or contradictive that other people have written, that is your choice. Or you can focus on the aspects that you think are cool and fantastical and have something that you can actually call your own.
This is ultimately the foundation for all roll playing. My space wolves are very different than your space wolves, even if we both like them, because they are mine. I've spent hundreds of hours modeling/painting/playing my force that follows my inner dialogue of who does what and why.
I think that a lot of the hate for space wolves comes from the "why not me too" syndrome.
From a fluff (Ie. BL) perspective, the SW have gotten a lot of attention. More so than most other Chapters. The problem is, the stories were told by different authors and then to make it worse, they are not even written from the same perspective. That and BL authors seem to go a little OT because there is no central body for doing checks and balances of who does what.
Now all of this attention breeds a bit of jealousy. Why isn't (insert your favorite chapter here) getting some attention? Why does the SW need another novel? So you start picking it apart, and its so easy to do because of reason stated in the above paragraph. This book says this, this book says that, blah blah blah. And its easy to pick out the faults because of the wildly different styles/opinions/focus of the different authors. Now if (insert your favorite Chapter) got their own book, you would have something else to read, something to gloss over with your own set of Rose Colored glasses. And we do that, because this is fantasy. It is so easy to pick favorites. We all want to root for the Hero, even if that hero is a bastard. But more importantly, by damn it, we all want it to be OUR hero. Its so easy to forgive the bad writing, inconsistent plot points, world fluff breaking events when its OUR guy doing it. But when its not our guy or hasn't been our guy for a long time, its easy to slide into negative mode.
From a codex/army view point. Yes the SW codex is stronger than the SM one. Nothing more to say here. Why are SW better than my guys? Ohh god that is so cheap, why can't my guys do that? blah blah blah. Same color, different horse. Hey, we all want to win, we all want to believe we play on an even field. This is GW, we dont, it is what it is. But again, the base of the problem is why not my guys?
But for myself, I like the SW. They are the only SM faction I've ever liked.
I like that they are vikings in space. I see them as totem type worshipers as such wearing animal pelts, runes, etc. all work well. I like that they have a mutation fault, I like that they have an entire company devoted to that mutation and the super natural effects that it brings. I like that their powers may in fact be shamanic in nature as apposed to sorcery. I get that there are some of your out there who refuse to believe that it can be anything but sorcery. Because some book somewhere said so and thats what your clinging too. And your right to do it, but there are other just as poorly written and just as concrete that says that they may in fact be different. Nobody is going to convince the other guy, because the truth of the matter is your both right.
40K is not GWs universe, its your universe. Your the one who has to spend countless hours engaged in it, its you who allows for the scale of the engagement, its you who has to fit it all into the narrative and it has to make sense for you. Otherwise, your probably wasting a lot of time engaged in something that doesn't bring you any pleasure and what the hell would be the point of that? The written fluff for it is merely guidelines nothing more. Its something to fill in the dark shadows in the corners, its to give hints of what may be. It offers a general time line of events of which you can insert your own story to help give the whole thing a bit of cohesion. But never ever believe that your private narrative is any less important than those of published authors.
In short, the SW are what we each choose to make of them, buy focusing on what we like. If you choose to focus only on the negative or contradictive that other people have written, that is your choice. Or you can focus on the aspects that you think are cool and fantastical and have something that you can actually call your own.
This is ultimately the foundation for all roll playing. My space wolves are very different than your space wolves, even if we both like them, because they are mine. I've spent hundreds of hours modeling/painting/playing my force that follows my inner dialogue of who does what and why.
Bran hit the nail right on the head,and it doesn't help the detractors and fans of the Space Wolves are stubborn as Imperial Fists. If you want to get really drunk, just go back a few pages and take a shot whenever I'm questioning the sanity of people. Don't do it when people return the favor unless you want to die.
For me some bending of fabric is okay, like xenos and such. But certain things we just can't discuss.
I finally discovered the part some have taken to mean they go wolfy in the SW-codex, it's very weak. Just look at the phrasing: When the Cadian battlegroup creed's Blade volunteers for a controversial counter-invasion into the Eye of Terror to destabilize the daemonic armies massing upon the hell-world of Void-Soul, many high-ranking strategos consider the Cadians damned to a futile and horrific death. Sadly, their calculations prove correct. Thousands of Imperial Guardsmen die in terror and pain over the first few hours of the invasion. Just as the Daemon warhost begin to surround the Cadian invaders, however something incredible happens. Long-limbed silhouettes appear amongst the greenish fires of Voidsoul for a moment, and out of nowhere come pack after pack of ravenous wolf-things, jaws snapping and claws caked with blood. Bipedal in only the loosest sense, with pieces of broken power armour clinging to their overly muscled frames, the slavering, hair-covered beasts fall upon the Daemon legions with a savage fury. Even the upright, proud figures that stalk amongst them are hideous to behold. The few Guardsmen that escape the resultant carnage and make it back to the Cadian Gate alive speak of their feral rescuers in hushed tones, for if they were indeed the lost brothers of the 13th Comapny, they were every bit as terrifying as he Daemon-things of Voidsoul.
Quoted directly from the Space Wolves codex. Now if this is where people think they turn wolfy they are sorely mistaken. They actually sounds like an odd mix of gorilla, man and wolf.
Kain wrote: Perhaps a metroid crossover is needed to show them a power armored woman who could obliterate primarchs.
(I'm serious, her basic guns have terawatt/kiloton level output)
That's it?
Vulkan took a teraton explosive to the face and shrugged it off.
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Beaviz81 wrote: Bran hit the nail right on the head,and it doesn't help the detractors and fans of the Space Wolves are stubborn as Imperial Fists. If you want to get really drunk, just go back a few pages and take a shot whenever I'm questioning the sanity of people. Don't do it when people return the favor unless you want to die.
For me some bending of fabric is okay, like xenos and such. But certain things we just can't discuss.
I finally discovered the part some have taken to mean they go wolfy in the SW-codex, it's very weak. Just look at the phrasing: When the Cadian battlegroup creed's Blade volunteers for a controversial counter-invasion into the Eye of Terror to destabilize the daemonic armies massing upon the hell-world of Void-Soul, many high-ranking strategos consider the Cadians damned to a futile and horrific death. Sadly, their calculations prove correct. Thousands of Imperial Guardsmen die in terror and pain over the first few hours of the invasion. Just as the Daemon warhost begin to surround the Cadian invaders, however something incredible happens. Long-limbed silhouettes appear amongst the greenish fires of Voidsoul for a moment, and out of nowhere come pack after pack of ravenous wolf-things, jaws snapping and claws caked with blood. Bipedal in only the loosest sense, with pieces of broken power armour clinging to their overly muscled frames, the slavering, hair-covered beasts fall upon the Daemon legions with a savage fury. Even the upright, proud figures that stalk amongst them are hideous to behold. The few Guardsmen that escape the resultant carnage and make it back to the Cadian Gate alive speak of their feral rescuers in hushed tones, for if they were indeed the lost brothers of the 13th Comapny, they were every bit as terrifying as he Daemon-things of Voidsoul.
Quoted directly from the Space Wolves codex. Now if this is where people think they turn wolfy they are sorely mistaken. They actually sounds like an odd mix of gorilla, man and wolf.
No, we get it from A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns, they turn into Wolves, you're wrong, and in denial.
First, their fluff, especially with their most recent codex and BL books, is awful, at least to me.
In general they usually seem to be written like some overactive 11 year olds internet fanfic about Space Vikings. We've got everything from firing artillery by smell, to characters with the word "Wolf" or some derivative thereof in their character profile and wargear like 14 times, guys that get to crash Thunderhawks for gaks and giggles and nobody seems to care. They come off as bad comic relief. Then we've got the "berzerker" aspect of SW's being unholy savages in melee combat who love the thrill of battle and are just so much fighter than other Space Marines. Then yet on another hand we've got the "sinister dark executioners" tripe that the other half of the SW fluff is, where no, they're not actually the ridiculous parody faction or mindless berzerkers, they just use it as an excuse to mask their brilliant tactics and master spy networks and incredible generalship. On top of that they've of course got an ironclad sense of honor and hearts of gold for the downtrodden little guy, but don't forget they're still dark nightmarish killers. Oh, and some of them are Werewolves too just for gaks and giggles.
They try to be anything and everything at once and they come off like someone's pet fanfic project where they have to be the "bestest at everythings!". It's like if you tried to mash Orks, Chaos Space Marines, the Inquisition and a dash of Tau into one faction, it just doesn't mesh. Their psykers aren't really "bad" psyekers, they use the native power of Fenris...
You've probably never heard of it /hipster.
From a tabletop perspective, largely they ended up being "Space Marine+1" for years, their book really incentivized armies that really did not fit almost anyone's idea of "Space Vikings", and I'll never forget seeing armies packing more long range S8+ AT guns than most IG armies while simultaneously still packing a dozen meltaguns and were more than capable of outfighting many MEQ opponents in CC thanks to Übergrit and Counterattack. As a result they became *THE* codex hopper "counts as" army, to the extent that SW's were the single most populous army at Adepticon 2011, yet something like 29 of 32 (~90%) of those armies were "counts as" armies.
Now the latter has changes somewhat, the core rules and meta have shifted and changed and they aren't what they once were, but those were not fun years, seeing SW armies that looked more akin to something Iron Warriors would be fielding, over and over and over again.
@SW fan hate: Most of us post on many forums and have been having the same arguments for years. It really gets tiring. Constantly explaining things over and over again. This is especially true for things that are misunderstandings or just plainly wrong and constantly repeated.
@ SW becoming wolves: SW themselves don't become wolves. They become a "Werewolf" like beast called a Wulfen. However, there are failed aspirants that devolve into wolves. The question then becomes are the wolves that the aspirants devolve into Fenris wolves or Thunder Wolves. That question is never answered and untill it is proven that the aspirants become Thunder Wolves. We don't have battle brother riding battle brother.
@Beaviz81: The fluff says that failed aspirants sometimes devolve into wolves. That means that the basic biological reason that makes this possible is "The fluff says it is true".
@SW fluff = crap: The fluff reconciles well if you break it down into two seperate fluffs. IE, 30K SW are different then 40KSWs.
The 30K SWs are really one of the worse of the worse Legions. The fact that Russ is so loyal to the Emperor and remains a military asset keeps the SWs from censor. Just look at how they are viewed almost universally by every other Legions and Imperial army. Angron puts it best when he says "You are free because you do what the Emperor wants" (paraphrased) to Russ.
The removal of the 13th Great Co and Russ and Co and thousands of years of domestication and we get the 40K heros of the IoMSWs.
Then you also have to realise that the mindset of a SW is to risk everything to get the win. Its a trait that is repeated over and over in the fluff. The ones we see in the fluff are those stupid/wreckless/badass acts that actually worked. For example in the 5th codex there is a story where a SW ship is dieing so the Wolflord orders his men to jump off of the ship and ride the explosion to the enemy flagship. In an attempt to board it. The wtf moment works out and we have a new omg SW fluff piece. What we don't hear is how many time this or simular actions have been attempted and everyone died. Possibly without the enemy even knowing that the SW were dumb enough to even attempt it.
So remember that for every WFT moment there are several attempts that fail. Many likey fail so bad that the enemy doesn't even know someone was stupid enough to try it in the first place.
The fluff say that failed aspirants become Wulfen and roams the planet as monsters. It's even stated in the Space Wolves codex, and that trumps your fanfiction. Not a word was said about wolves. Actually the word wolf is not used outside Space Wolves.
As usual I'm amazed about the pure hatred the Space Wolves seem to attract for all sort of flimsy reasons.
The wolf maintained its grip until the bull gave up its last,
trembling rumble, then it let go. Blood dripped from its snout. It
padded around the massive corpse twice, moving quickly, head
low, sniffing.
It stopped beside the head of its kill, and raised its own head,
ears upright, to stare at Hawser. Its eyes were golden and blackpinned.
Hawser stared back. He knew if he tried to get back on
his feet, the wolf would still be taller than him.
‘There are no wolves on Fenris.’
Hawser looked up. Longfang was standing beside him, staring
at the wolf.
‘That’s evidently not true at all,’ Hawser replied in a tiny voice.
Longfang grinned down at him.
‘Try to keep up, skjald. There were no wolves on Fenris until
we got here.’
Longfang looked back at the wolf.
‘Twice he’s helped protect you,’ he said.
‘What?’ asked Hawser.
‘He had a different name last time you were in his company,’
said Longfang. ‘Then, he was called Brom.’
The black wolf turned and ran for the forest, accelerating as only
a mammalian apex predator can. It vanished into the enormous
darkness under the evergreens.
After a few seconds, Hawser saw its eyes staring out of the
blackness at them: luminous, gold and black-pinned.
It took him another few moments to realise that there were another
ten thousand pairs of eyes watching them from the shadows
of the forest.
Bam. From chapter eight of Prospero Burns, near the end of it. I can't give you a page number because I have it via ebook, in pdf form.
As for the story of Leman Russ, there are two main possibilities:
A. It's a myth.
B. He was raised by the original, mutated human settlers of Fenris.
The wolf maintained its grip until the bull gave up its last,
trembling rumble, then it let go. Blood dripped from its snout. It
padded around the massive corpse twice, moving quickly, head
low, sniffing.
It stopped beside the head of its kill, and raised its own head,
ears upright, to stare at Hawser. Its eyes were golden and blackpinned.
Hawser stared back. He knew if he tried to get back on
his feet, the wolf would still be taller than him.
‘There are no wolves on Fenris.’
Hawser looked up. Longfang was standing beside him, staring
at the wolf.
‘That’s evidently not true at all,’ Hawser replied in a tiny voice.
Longfang grinned down at him.
‘Try to keep up, skjald. There were no wolves on Fenris until
we got here.’
Longfang looked back at the wolf.
‘Twice he’s helped protect you,’ he said.
‘What?’ asked Hawser.
‘He had a different name last time you were in his company,’
said Longfang. ‘Then, he was called Brom.’
The black wolf turned and ran for the forest, accelerating as only
a mammalian apex predator can. It vanished into the enormous
darkness under the evergreens.
After a few seconds, Hawser saw its eyes staring out of the
blackness at them: luminous, gold and black-pinned.
It took him another few moments to realise that there were another
ten thousand pairs of eyes watching them from the shadows
of the forest.
Bam. From chapter eight of Prospero Burns, near the end of it. I can't give you a page number because I have it via ebook, in pdf form.
As for the story of Leman Russ, there are two main possibilities:
A. It's a myth.
B. He was raised by the original, mutated human settlers of Fenris.
Anyway, may I have everyone's concession please?
Ok, this actually proves that SW initiate who failed the ritual become Wolfs.
That contradicts the Space Wolves codex. There they are slated to become slavering monsters not wolves, and in general I follow the codex instead of Black Library. Just watch the test of Morkai at page ten.
Here is some of what's written:
The frightening potency of the Canis Helix is legendary, and has accounted for the lives of millions of aspirants as their bodies writhe and churn in anguish. Those it does not kill it transforms into a slavering monster.
That proves either Dan Abnett to be in error or the Space Wolf was cracking a joke, because in the codex itself if you fail your humanity-test you become a Wulfen, not a wolf. Then comes more descriptions of monsters and such, Wulfen are failed Space Wolves initiates, not wolves, it's in the codex.
When it comes to the codexes that's how they see themselves (only way for me to make sense of them). I mean even the Space Wolves codex is quite horrid there with the hero-calling.
The wolf maintained its grip until the bull gave up its last,
trembling rumble, then it let go. Blood dripped from its snout. It
padded around the massive corpse twice, moving quickly, head
low, sniffing.
It stopped beside the head of its kill, and raised its own head,
ears upright, to stare at Hawser. Its eyes were golden and blackpinned.
Hawser stared back. He knew if he tried to get back on
his feet, the wolf would still be taller than him.
‘There are no wolves on Fenris.’
Hawser looked up. Longfang was standing beside him, staring
at the wolf.
‘That’s evidently not true at all,’ Hawser replied in a tiny voice.
Longfang grinned down at him.
‘Try to keep up, skjald. There were no wolves on Fenris until
we got here.’
Longfang looked back at the wolf.
‘Twice he’s helped protect you,’ he said.
‘What?’ asked Hawser.
‘He had a different name last time you were in his company,’
said Longfang. ‘Then, he was called Brom.’
The black wolf turned and ran for the forest, accelerating as only
a mammalian apex predator can. It vanished into the enormous
darkness under the evergreens.
After a few seconds, Hawser saw its eyes staring out of the
blackness at them: luminous, gold and black-pinned.
It took him another few moments to realise that there were another
ten thousand pairs of eyes watching them from the shadows
of the forest.
Bam. From chapter eight of Prospero Burns, near the end of it. I can't give you a page number because I have it via ebook, in pdf form.
As for the story of Leman Russ, there are two main possibilities:
A. It's a myth.
B. He was raised by the original, mutated human settlers of Fenris.
Anyway, may I have everyone's concession please?
Ok, this actually proves that SW initiate who failed the ritual become Wolfs.
It doesn't prove anything - it gives you a hint that the "wolf isn't a wolf"....
I've read too many BL books to restrain myself from making assumptions....beside that Tutelaries theory also fits nicely....
Like I said I take it as one of the possibilities, not as "THIS IS IT"...
O YEAH - FREKI AND GERI WEREN'T INITIATES....they were Russ's family....
Beaviz81 wrote: That contradicts the Space Wolves codex. There they are slated to become slavering monsters not wolves, and in general I follow the codex instead of Black Library. Just watch the test of Morkai at page ten.
Here is some of what's written:
The frightening potency of the Canis Helix is legendary, and has accounted for the lives of millions of aspirants as their bodies writhe and churn in anguish. Those it does not kill it transforms into a slavering monster.
That proves either Dan Abnett to be in error or the Space Wolf was cracking a joke, because in the codex itself if you fail your humanity-test you become a Wulfen, not a wolf. Then comes more descriptions of monsters and such, Wulfen are failed Space Wolves initiates, not wolves, it's in the codex.
Are you serious?
What part of them being "slavering monsters" contradicts the notion of them also being wolves? Wolves who happen to slobber (Slavering), and are the size of tanks with jaws that can rend steel (Monster).
Of course I'm serious, you can't go up against fluff VD, not when it is written in stone, and nowhere is it stated in the codex the Space Wolves turns into wolves, there ain't two ways about this.
Beaviz81 wrote: Of course I'm serious, you can't go up against fluff VD, not when it is written in stone, and nowhere is it stated in the codex the Space Wolves turns into wolves, there ain't two ways about this.
One thing is things like the Wulfen, the Space Wolves turns into the Wulfen, that's insane werewolves, they don't change species, and Draigo is off-topic. People seem to do all sort of explanations for him. I'm sure you even have your which ain't stated.
Thunderwolves are considered xenos, aren't they? I thought that was in the codex somewhere as an explanation for why imperial records of wolf cavalry is dodgy at best.
Ehm that actually makes the suggestion the Space Wolves changing species entirely moot, plus they are rarely seen because they are akin to gold-mines for orks.
He is not a subject here, and it's a better guess than the daemon prince of the Emperor I have heard. I'm wondering why the hell that is coming up.
He certainly could have been that as he unaided and alone not only takes out several very skilled Plague Marines, and then tattoos the former Supreme Grandmaster's name on the heart of a living god with demonic upgrades. Then again Magnus has it almost as humiliating, he is a living bullseye for Ragnar.
Beaviz81 wrote: He is not a subject here, and it's a better guess than the daemon prince of the Emperor I have heard. I'm wondering why the hell that is coming up.
He certainly could have been that as he unaided and alone not only takes out several very skilled Plague Marines, and then tattoos the former Supreme Grandmaster's name on the heart of a living god with demonic upgrades. Then again Magnus has it almost as humiliating, he is a living bullseye for Ragnar.
I'm fairly sure we got like...an entire book series building up to Ragnar's victory over Magnus.
Beaviz81 wrote: When and were VD? And explain how Leman Russ was reared by a she-wolf with that quote. And please find me where it's stated. And do a proper job like Lynata does (really strange claims must be backed up). I don't mean to come off as rude, but that is something you need to substasiate VD.
Spoiler:
The wolf maintained its grip until the bull gave up its last,
trembling rumble, then it let go. Blood dripped from its snout. It
padded around the massive corpse twice, moving quickly, head
low, sniffing.
It stopped beside the head of its kill, and raised its own head,
ears upright, to stare at Hawser. Its eyes were golden and blackpinned.
Hawser stared back. He knew if he tried to get back on
his feet, the wolf would still be taller than him.
‘There are no wolves on Fenris.’
Hawser looked up. Longfang was standing beside him, staring
at the wolf.
‘That’s evidently not true at all,’ Hawser replied in a tiny voice.
Longfang grinned down at him.
‘Try to keep up, skjald. There were no wolves on Fenris until
we got here.’
Longfang looked back at the wolf.
‘Twice he’s helped protect you,’ he said.
‘What?’ asked Hawser.
‘He had a different name last time you were in his company,’
said Longfang. ‘Then, he was called Brom.’
The black wolf turned and ran for the forest, accelerating as only
a mammalian apex predator can. It vanished into the enormous
darkness under the evergreens.
After a few seconds, Hawser saw its eyes staring out of the
blackness at them: luminous, gold and black-pinned.
It took him another few moments to realise that there were another
ten thousand pairs of eyes watching them from the shadows
of the forest.
Bam. From chapter eight of Prospero Burns, near the end of it. I can't give you a page number because I have it via ebook, in pdf form.
As for the story of Leman Russ, there are two main possibilities:
A. It's a myth.
B. He was raised by the original, mutated human settlers of Fenris.
Anyway, may I have everyone's concession please?
Spoiler:
‘Even though you’ve suffered from a crippling fear of wolves since your earliest years?’ asked Valdor.
‘There are no wolves on Fenris,’ replied Hawser.
‘Oh, you know there are,’ growled Russ, his voice a wet leopard-purr, ‘and you know what they are.’~Prospero Burns
No spoiler really needed since the book is so old. But it shows that Longfang's "Secret" that he shared with Hawser was not only true but it was known that Longfang told him that secret within the Wolves. And also that Russ did not Hawser telling everyone that secret. But that does not mean that there were not Fenris Wolves on Fenris before the coming of the SWs. But when combined with a few different quotes can easily mean that there where no Fenris Wolves before the coming of humans. An idea backed up by Magnus in A Thousand Sons.
Beaviz81 wrote: Of course I'm serious, you can't go up against fluff VD, not when it is written in stone, and nowhere is it stated in the codex the Space Wolves turns into wolves, there ain't two ways about this.
Ah, so you believe absence of evidence is the same as evidence of absence.
I'm not the one going up against the Space Wolves codex, it doesn't say the failed Space Wolves turns into to wolves, no sir, they are stated to be Wulfen. You are going up against fluff.
‘Even though you’ve suffered from a crippling fear of wolves since your earliest years?’ asked Valdor.
‘There are no wolves on Fenris,’ replied Hawser.
‘Oh, you know there are,’ growled Russ, his voice a wet leopard-purr, ‘and you know what they are.’~Prospero Burns
No spoiler really needed since the book is so old. But it shows that Longfang's "Secret" that he shared with Hawser was not only true but it was known that Longfang told him that secret within the Wolves. And also that Russ did not Hawser telling everyone that secret. But that does not mean that there were not Fenris Wolves on Fenris before the coming of the SWs. But when combined with a few different quotes can easily mean that there where no Fenris Wolves before the coming of humans. An idea backed up by Magnus in A Thousand Sons.
Spoiler:
Right, he knows they are battle brothers, who sometimes are ridden by other battle brothers.
I Love Space wolves, but I kind of like Ultramarines too (I play one in deathwatch.) The only Chapter I really don't like are the Blood Raven's, and that's only because THQ kept shoving them down my throat.
I used to loath Space Wolves until I read Prospero Burns, and gained a bit of respect and appreciation for them. Still doesn't change the fact that I'm not very fond of them.
Part of this stems from the fact that they have been the most OP Marine chapter (not counting GK) since the 2nd edition block of cheddar known as a codex was released. This is made worse by the fact that SW armies always consist of multiple rune priests (sometimes 3-4) for an army that allegedly hates and fears psykers. Oh, and three Longfang squads is pretty standard too, for an army that prefers to make things up close and personal. But that's more about the game play.
As far as the fluff goes, most of their BL stories are mere bolter porn with little to no real character depth. A Thousand Sons really made them out to be total hypocrits, but Prospero Burns softened that perception just a bit. Of course, most of the Horus Heresy novels have taken an almost sympathetic approach to the traitor legions, so its no big surprise the loyalist often come out looking bad.
They can be due to the 80% increase in musclemass, so they end in big torso guy and small legs guy, which can result in them being like dogs at times, but unlike dogs they ain't at all cuddly and such.
So Space Wolves ride Thunderwolves that used to be Space Wolves? Does anyone else get some uncomfortable overtones from that?
Irregardless, no Space Wolf fluff will ever live up to the tale of Canis Wolfborn.
Canis means dog, so his name is Dog Wolfborn. Dog Wolfborn is a Wolf Guard to Wolf Lord Harald Deathwolf of the Space Wolves, and he rides a Thunderwolf. The word 'wolf' is used so many times in his background that it stops sounding like a real word.
LoneLictor wrote: So Space Wolves ride Thunderwolves that used to be Space Wolves? Does anyone else get some uncomfortable overtones from that?
Irregardless, no Space Wolf fluff will ever live up to the tale of Canis Wolfborn.
Canis means dog, so his name is Dog Wolfborn. Dog Wolfborn is a Wolf Guard to Wolf Lord Harald Deathwolf of the Space Wolves, and he rides a Thunderwolf. The word 'wolf' is used so many times in his background that it stops sounding like a real word.
My fair sir, you've forgotten the rest! He wears a Wolftooth Necklace, with a Wolf Tail Talisman, Two Wolf Claws, He bears the Saga of the Wolfkin, he's a Lord of the Wolfkin, he's also counted as a Wolf king, he can be accompanied by Fenrisan Wolves..
LoneLictor wrote:So Space Wolves ride Thunderwolves that used to be Space Wolves? Does anyone else get some uncomfortable overtones from that?
Irregardless, no Space Wolf fluff will ever live up to the tale of Canis Wolfborn.
Canis means dog, so his name is Dog Wolfborn. Dog Wolfborn is a Wolf Guard to Wolf Lord Harald Deathwolf of the Space Wolves, and he rides a Thunderwolf. The word 'wolf' is used so many times in his background that it stops sounding like a real word.
My fair sir, you've forgotten the rest! He wears a Wolftooth Necklace, with a Wolf Tail Talisman, Two Wolf Claws, He bears the Saga of the Wolfkin, he's a Lord of the Wolfkin, he's also counted as a Wolf king, he can be accompanied by Fenrisan Wolves..
Phil Kelly, half asleep, vomited the word 'wolf' all over the page and decided to call it a day.
Regarding Space Marine fluff, a thing of lot of it is intentionally disconcerting. They're taken away from their families as children, against their will. They're sterilized by the process that makes them Space Marines, heavily brainwashed, and expected to sacrifice their lives for a species they're no longer part of, and an Emperor they've never met. Those that rebel, or even just want any sort of reward whatsoever are killed. People try to paint renegades as the villains, but in my opinion they're essentially escaped slaves.
But the thing with Space Wolves riding Thunderwolves that used to be Space Wolves, I think that's just unintentionally unsettling.
LL is for once wrong, they ride xeno animal-life. That's science-fact not fiction in the animal life.
LL what happened to you my boy? My saint, you were supposed to be the foolproof anything or me. *Throws an apple at your thigh with deadly strength and accuracy!*
Beaviz81 wrote:LL is for once wrong, they ride xeno animal-life. That's science-fact not fiction in the animal life.
LL what happened to you my boy? My saint, you were supposed to be the foolproof anything or me. *Throws an apple at your thigh with deadly strength and accuracy!*
I'm going to backtrack heavily so that I still look foolproof.
I never outright said that Thunderwolves were Space Wolves, I just speculated on if Thunderwolves are Spacewolves, and how creepy it would be. I ain't taking no sides in this argument. Canon is so jumbled up in 40k that its possible to argue that the Squats were the Primarchs of the Blood Ravens, in a secret plan conducted by Omegon (OR WAS IT ALPHARIUS?).
This is made worse by the fact that SW armies always consist of multiple rune priests (sometimes 3-4) for an army that allegedly hates and fears psykers. Oh, and three Longfang squads is pretty standard too, for an army that prefers to make things up close and personal. But that's more about the game play.
To me this is what the problem has become. To me a Fluffy Space Wolf Army should be all about variety. I don’t run Rune Priest/Long Fang SPAM, the closest thing to SPAM I run is my Grey Hunter, 6 Packs, 2x with Plasma Gun, 2x with Melta Guns and 2x with Flamers.
My two, count them TWO Long Fang Packs came into existence because after rebuilding my Space Marine Army out of my old Long Fangs. The first is armed with one Heavy Bolter [From a Scout Marine], Two Missile Launchers and Two Las Cannons. The second one is 5 Missile Launchers [Two came from Scout Marines] because that’s what I could find at the time.
I have Three Rune Priest, the 1st is my count as Njal made from the Blood Angles Librarian from the latest Space Hulk game, and currently as soon as I get a replacement he is becoming a Dark Angles Librarian. The second one is one I bought at the LFGS, and I use him for every MEQ I run just because hi looks so cool and the third is was made out of parts from my Space Wolf Battle Force boxes.
I normally only play One Rune Priest at a time; Now I admit that I field him with my 1st Long Fang Pack, with Divination.
This apparently this combo makes me a “Beardy Cheese Monger” is some circles. It is hard for me to call anyone who has started a Space Wolf Army with 3x Missile Launcher Long Fangs and Everyone one of their Rune Priest has JotWW since the new Codex a real Space Wolf Player.
Of coarse I feel that way about some of the Grey Knight Players.
If this comes to be true - I'm going traitor...4real...I'm gonna use my warhammer (read: working hammer); bash my artwork; and go to BL headquarters to talk with the bald brotherhood.....with my hammer ofc ....
Haha if they were Thousand Sons I would maybe agree just because LL is awesome, and purplefood should take note of LL, LL is awesome, I could dine on the crap of LL, because LL is awesome and polite.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Just bash in their heads and perform lobotomies Marko.
Beaviz81 wrote: Haha if they were Thousand Sons I would maybe agree just because LL is awesome, and purplefood should take note of LL, LL is awesome, I could dine on the crap of LL, because LL is awesome and polite.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Just bash in their heads and perform lobotomies Marko.
First I must start with my own....because this horror is too much for me.....
Bye, bye my puppies...Raven Guard here I come (*they are always in the shadow*)
LoneLictor wrote:So Space Wolves ride Thunderwolves that used to be Space Wolves? Does anyone else get some uncomfortable overtones from that?
Irregardless, no Space Wolf fluff will ever live up to the tale of Canis Wolfborn.
Canis means dog, so his name is Dog Wolfborn. Dog Wolfborn is a Wolf Guard to Wolf Lord Harald Deathwolf of the Space Wolves, and he rides a Thunderwolf. The word 'wolf' is used so many times in his background that it stops sounding like a real word.
My fair sir, you've forgotten the rest! He wears a Wolftooth Necklace, with a Wolf Tail Talisman, Two Wolf Claws, He bears the Saga of the Wolfkin, he's a Lord of the Wolfkin, he's also counted as a Wolf king, he can be accompanied by Fenrisan Wolves..
Phil Kelly, half asleep, vomited the word 'wolf' all over the page and decided to call it a day.
Regarding Space Marine fluff, a thing of lot of it is intentionally disconcerting. They're taken away from their families as children, against their will. They're sterilized by the process that makes them Space Marines, heavily brainwashed, and expected to sacrifice their lives for a species they're no longer part of, and an Emperor they've never met. Those that rebel, or even just want any sort of reward whatsoever are killed. People try to paint renegades as the villains, but in my opinion they're essentially escaped slaves.
But the thing with Space Wolves riding Thunderwolves that used to be Space Wolves, I think that's just unintentionally unsettling.
Actually it varies from chapter to chapter on the recruitment process, some will take children, some families offer up the children in hope to become it. Some don't recruit children but will take what they feel is stronger warriors instead.
Also, SM aren't sterilized.
They need a high quantity of testosterone, and you know how the testosterone is produced.
Hell, probably the only thing still human in a SPESS MEHREEN is his "little battle brother".
If you know what I mean.
No but their sperm might be corrosive. Plus Lukas the Trickster rule, but then again lots of the women at Fenris are....To hell with it, time to call the cops.
Beaviz81 wrote: No but their sperm might be corrosive. Plus Lukas the Trickster rule, but then again lots of the women at Fenris are....To hell with it, time to call the cops.
Probably, yeah.
Well, Lukas is a Trickster, he coul easily trick himself in a woman bed.
I think Lukas the Trickster, like most of the fluff in their 5th Ed Codex, is terrible and characteristic of the childish and OTT fluff so prevalent in Codices.
Every codex is over the top Just Dave. I take the stance they just are how the guys in the codexes see themselves. That makes everything more easy to digest.
Just Dave wrote: I think Lukas the Trickster, like most of the fluff in their 5th Ed Codex, is terrible and characteristic of the childish and OTT fluff so prevalent in Codices.
Well, I love him as a character. Is epic. Childish? Nah, it reflects simply the rebellious nature of the Wolves, particulary the BC. Hell, Lukas is jackassery incarnate.
Just Dave wrote: I think Lukas the Trickster, like most of the fluff in their 5th Ed Codex, is terrible and characteristic of the childish and OTT fluff so prevalent in Codices.
Well, I love him as a character. Is epic. Childish? Nah, it reflects simply the rebellious nature of the Wolves, particulary the BC. Hell, Lukas is jackassery incarnate.
Lukas the Trickster is awesome and supposed to be a very rebellious character. Plus I loved the word jackassery incarnate.
I don't like to post, but the level of stupid in this thread is reaching cataclysmic proportions (as most space wolf-related threads seem to), so I couldn't resist.
The Wulfen are a pretty well-established part of Space Wolf lore. We know these guys have had canine DNA incorporated into their gene-seed when their Emperor created them, we know they take an additional elixir known as the Canis Helix that creates further mutations, we know in times of great stress or anger they can transform into giant werewolf creatures, and we know they keep failed aspirants who weren't able to adjust and mutated out of control in the basement of the Fang, unleashing them in battle when needed (which they did both at Prospero and the Battle for the Fang).
So it is an undeniable and irrevocable fact that Space Wolves do indeed turn into wolves.
Now whether every single wolf-like creature on the planet is a former Space Wolf is debatable. It seems unlikely, and the only source for that is Dan Abnett. I'm not a big fan of his Space Marine work, so I don't lend too much credence to that. Of course, if we dismiss Abnett's "there are no wolves on Fenris", we have to dismiss the whole "Executioners of the Emperor" bit.
----
Speaking of that title, it pays to remember that 40K lore is a succession of retcons and re-writes. You can't say "oh, Space Wolves are better than regular Space Marines because they were meant to be Executioners", because they have been better than regular Space Marines since 2nd edition when they were given to Andy Chambers. Andy Chambers, for those who don't know, is the beardiest git in the universe (to use GW's own terminology). This guy at the time ran around with a Wolverine haircut, and decided to make his chapter of choice a bunch of Wolverines. People complain about Ward, but Ward really has got nothing on Andy. This is basically what Andy did in second edition:
"Space Marines are peerless warrior-monks, indoctrinated to unquestioningly serve the Imperium. Well, my Space Marines are even smarter and stronger (WS6, bitch!), have more terminator suits than anyone else (20-man squads with Cyclones and assault cannons!), have a stronger fleet than an entire Segmentum, have better senses, are totally hipster rebels that tell the Lords of Terra and the Inquisition and the Ecclesiarchy to feth off on a regular basis, and if all else fails, they can go into berserker rages that transforms them into giant werewolves that will snikt snikt mess you up wolverine-style. Oh, and they are immune to Chaos, too."
Then Abnett, a self-professed Space Wolf fan-boy, comes along and makes them the Emperor's Executioners, causing all sorts of debates and consternation and wet-leopard purring among the nerdbase. More recent material has shed more light on this title. From Outcast Dead, we know the Emperor was more or less blindly experimenting when he made the Space Marines (after all, they were an afterthought only realized because he lost his Primarchs, and Corax was able to improve on the formula with just a bit more work), tweaking this and that and throwing random bits in there. If we say he designed Russ to be his executioner, then we must also conclude that he designed Kurze to be a bipolar psycho, Horus to be a megalomaniac, and Fulgrim to be a polly pretty pants ponce.
From Betrayer, we know that this title was unofficial and never declared by any Imperial authority, but rather something Russ took on himself. The only piece of evidence people like to present is the hints Abnett dropped that the Wolves may have clashed with other Space Marines in the past, but Betrayer also lets us know that those Space Marines were World Eaters, rather than one of the two fallen Legions.
In conclusion, TLDR version:
A. Space Wolves DO turn into wolves (or at least wolf-like creatures), but it is highly unlikely that every wolf on Fenris is a former Space Wolf.
B. The Space Wolves are only "the Emperor's executioners" because they say they are, rather than in any official fashion.
C. Dan Abnett is terrible at writing Space Marines, and his non-SM stuff is basically light sci-fi that exists in a brighter version of the 40K universe.
D. Ward is just following the successful formula of cartoony over-the-top Mary Sue gak laid down by Andy Chambers and Tuomas Pirinen.
E. Space Wolves are hated because all of their fluff is adolescent fanwank that doesn't fit in the grander narrative of the 40K universe, unless we're looking at the comic relief stupid part of it.
As far as the OP's question, this post wins the thread:
In general they usually seem to be written like some overactive 11 year olds internet fanfic about Space Vikings. We've got everything from firing artillery by smell, to characters with the word "Wolf" or some derivative thereof in their character profile and wargear like 14 times, guys that get to crash Thunderhawks for gaks and giggles and nobody seems to care. They come off as bad comic relief. Then we've got the "berzerker" aspect of SW's being unholy savages in melee combat who love the thrill of battle and are just so much fighter than other Space Marines. Then yet on another hand we've got the "sinister dark executioners" tripe that the other half of the SW fluff is, where no, they're not actually the ridiculous parody faction or mindless berzerkers, they just use it as an excuse to mask their brilliant tactics and master spy networks and incredible generalship. On top of that they've of course got an ironclad sense of honor and hearts of gold for the downtrodden little guy, but don't forget they're still dark nightmarish killers. Oh, and some of them are Werewolves too just for gaks and giggles.
They try to be anything and everything at once and they come off like someone's pet fanfic project where they have to be the "bestest at everythings!". It's like if you tried to mash Orks, Chaos Space Marines, the Inquisition and a dash of Tau into one faction, it just doesn't mesh. Their psykers aren't really "bad" psyekers, they use the native power of Fenris...
^ THIS! Though judging from the amount of crazy bouncing off this thread it will be promptly ignored with people sticking their fingers in their ears saying "LALALA! NOT EVIDENCE!"
B. The Space Wolves are only "the Emperor's executioners" because they say they are, rather than in any official fashion.
ADB supports this theory actually....He said because of their unique style of fightning (go for the throat) they are what they are.... Not because of astartes +1 traits....
C. Dan Abnett is terrible at writing Space Marines, and his non-SM stuff is basically light sci-fi that exists in a brighter version of the 40K universe.
Add IYHO please - Abnett is the man, he can write anything....
E. Space Wolves are hated because all of their fluff is adolescent fanwank that doesn't fit in the grander narrative of the 40K universe, unless we're looking at the comic relief stupid part of it.
Nope....Biggest fanbase, I play them for about 20 years, even this thread is actually in favor of SW.....
O and comic "relief stupid part " is present in every faction, chapter, author......
^ THIS! Though judging from the amount of crazy bouncing off this thread it will be promptly ignored with people sticking their fingers in their ears saying "LALALA! NOT EVIDENCE!"
I'm not sure quotations from books vs. "lalala, shutup they are awesomz! SCIENCE!!11!!" counts as a debate. More like someone making the mistake of arguing with an idiot and being dragged down to their level.
B. The Space Wolves are only "the Emperor's executioners" because they say they are, rather than in any official fashion.
ADB supports this theory actually....He said because of their unique style of fightning (go for the throat) they are what they are.... Not because of astartes +1 traits....
ADB is the one who in his books dismissed this as any "official" designation, but rather something Russ took upon himself because he thinks he has the authority to place judgement on his brothers.
C. Dan Abnett is terrible at writing Space Marines, and his non-SM stuff is basically light sci-fi that exists in a brighter version of the 40K universe.
Add IYHO please - Abnett is the man, he can write anything....
I refer you to Brothers of the Snake, one of the worst SM fanwank pieces of fiction ever written, and how his Space Marines keep growing larger and larger in every book. He also completely bumbled up the fall of Horus (and McNeil helped).
His non-SM stuff is shinier, happier and more high-tech than any other author's. He basically just writes generic sci-fi novels with a few 40K names dropped here and there.
E. Space Wolves are hated because all of their fluff is adolescent fanwank that doesn't fit in the grander narrative of the 40K universe, unless we're looking at the comic relief stupid part of it.
Nope....Biggest fanbase, I play them for about 20 years, even this thread is actually in favor of SW.....
O and comic "relief stupid part " is present in every faction, chapter, author......
This thread being "in their favor" is only in your mind and that of Beaviz. Them being the biggest fanbase is also pure conjecture. And as Vaktathi put it in far more eloquent words than I could, Space Wolves have been an extreme example of that style since their 2nd ed inception.
KnowItAll wrote: I'm not sure quotations from books vs. "lalala, shutup they are awesomz! SCIENCE!!11!!" counts as a debate. More like someone making the mistake of arguing with an idiot and being dragged down to their level.
B. The Space Wolves are only "the Emperor's executioners" because they say they are, rather than in any official fashion.
ADB supports this theory actually....He said because of their unique style of fightning (go for the throat) they are what they are.... Not because of astartes +1 traits....
ADB is the one who in his books dismissed this as any "official" designation, but rather something Russ took upon himself because he thinks he has the authority to place judgement on his brothers.
C. Dan Abnett is terrible at writing Space Marines, and his non-SM stuff is basically light sci-fi that exists in a brighter version of the 40K universe.
Add IYHO please - Abnett is the man, he can write anything....
I refer you to Brothers of the Snake, one of the worst SM fanwank pieces of fiction ever written, and how his Space Marines keep growing larger and larger in every book. He also completely bumbled up the fall of Horus (and McNeil helped).
His non-SM stuff is shinier, happier and more high-tech than any other author's. He basically just writes generic sci-fi novels with a few 40K names dropped here and there.
E. Space Wolves are hated because all of their fluff is adolescent fanwank that doesn't fit in the grander narrative of the 40K universe, unless we're looking at the comic relief stupid part of it.
Nope....Biggest fanbase, I play them for about 20 years, even this thread is actually in favor of SW.....
O and comic "relief stupid part " is present in every faction, chapter, author......
This thread being "in their favor" is only in your mind and that of Beaviz. Them being the biggest fanbase is also pure conjecture. And as Vaktathi put it in far more eloquent words than I could, Space Wolves have been an extreme example of that style since their 2nd ed inception.
Shinier than Ciaphas Cain?
Although those novels are chock full of gallows humor.
Just Dave wrote: I think Lukas the Trickster, like most of the fluff in their 5th Ed Codex, is terrible and characteristic of the childish and OTT fluff so prevalent in Codices.
KnowItAll wrote: I'm not sure quotations from books vs. "lalala, shutup they are awesomz! SCIENCE!!11!!" counts as a debate. More like someone making the mistake of arguing with an idiot and being dragged down to their level.
B. The Space Wolves are only "the Emperor's executioners" because they say they are, rather than in any official fashion.
ADB supports this theory actually....He said because of their unique style of fightning (go for the throat) they are what they are.... Not because of astartes +1 traits....
ADB is the one who in his books dismissed this as any "official" designation, but rather something Russ took upon himself because he thinks he has the authority to place judgement on his brothers.
C. Dan Abnett is terrible at writing Space Marines, and his non-SM stuff is basically light sci-fi that exists in a brighter version of the 40K universe.
Add IYHO please - Abnett is the man, he can write anything....
I refer you to Brothers of the Snake, one of the worst SM fanwank pieces of fiction ever written, and how his Space Marines keep growing larger and larger in every book. He also completely bumbled up the fall of Horus (and McNeil helped).
His non-SM stuff is shinier, happier and more high-tech than any other author's. He basically just writes generic sci-fi novels with a few 40K names dropped here and there.
E. Space Wolves are hated because all of their fluff is adolescent fanwank that doesn't fit in the grander narrative of the 40K universe, unless we're looking at the comic relief stupid part of it.
Nope....Biggest fanbase, I play them for about 20 years, even this thread is actually in favor of SW.....
O and comic "relief stupid part " is present in every faction, chapter, author......
This thread being "in their favor" is only in your mind and that of Beaviz. Them being the biggest fanbase is also pure conjecture. And as Vaktathi put it in far more eloquent words than I could, Space Wolves have been an extreme example of that style since their 2nd ed inception.
Nope ADB - said on B&C that the wolves have the biggest fanbase,following by the BA(close) ,and he said on facebook that he supports the theory about executioners just not astartes +1 theory.....
You say Russ's judgment - I say comradship, and only truth in your thread is that Abnett really started this mess with this :
Like I said, I do get you and I don't...To make judgment "what is; and what is not fit for 40k is pure bias....
Me and Beaviz? Check the thread again please....
Well, you could, but it would be a frankly bizarre non-sequitur if you did.
Also, that video... When I read Prospero Burns, and read about how the Space Wolves "would do things other Legions would find unthinkable, incapable of doing due to their honor", I couldn't help but think... Has this guy ever read of the World Eaters or the Night Lords? And that video continues to make me think Abnett has some mental block concerning those two Legions, "HOW COULD THE EMPEROR LET SUCH A SAVAGE LEGION ROAM FREE?" Well, probably because he is already letting the infinitely more brutal World Eaters and Night Lords roam around.
The Space Wolves are like that fat kid you knew in elementary school who brought in the biggest and best lunch, but still wanted to dip his grubby fingers in your lunch when you were not looking. I have often struggled to think of what the specialty of the Space Wolves actually is, because they seem to excel at everything. "Oh they are peerless close combat warriors also because they use their veterans as scouts they do some of the best recon work oh and they are the most brutal legion", lol.
ADB did a pretty good job of showing why the Wolves have taken the mantle of executioners, but Abnett's original idea seems to be just that they are Marines, but better.
WE and NL were wild but they were a bit mental (read : mark of calth, betrayer and add stupid), SW are on top of that cunning like hell - which makes them a bit more above average animals....
At the end of the day, we have discussed about it and even made a couple of laughs on this, but if user X have his opinion on the SW it doesn't matter how many proves you put in his face, he will hate the Wolves nonetheless. The opposite is the same (terrible line, I know), if someone is a SW fanboy he will eternally close his eyes in front of proves of some negavite aspect of the SW.
Basically, who cares? There will be haters, there will be fans. This thread became a parody of itself.
PunkNeverDie110 wrote: At the end of the day, we have discussed about it and even made a couple of laughs on this, but if user X have his opinion on the SW it doesn't matter how many proves you put in his face, he will hate the Wolves nonetheless.
The opposite is the same (terrible line, I know), if someone is a SW fanboy he will eternally close his eyes in front of proves of some negavite aspect of the SW.
Basically, who cares? There will be haters, there will be fans. This thread became a parody of itself.
Yes..But I'll take fanboy. over hater any day of the week.....
I hate the BA - but I don't read their books and I don't bash them in every post...I wish people would do the same....
This why I like guys like @thenoobbomb - he doesn't like them, but he is always polite when commenting and willing to take an argument....I wish there are more people on dakka like him...
Then you should have avoided this thread, since the OP asked for why they are hated, not for some white knight to come defend their honor.
And yes, I think argumentum at populum is exactly what is at play. Considering how much of the player base are adolescent boys, I guess we shouldn't be surprised. They enjoy the SW fluff because it's the kind of stuff they would write themselves.
KnowItAll wrote: Then you should have avoided this thread, since the OP asked for why they are hated, not for some white knight to come defend their honor.
Uh... dude... did you have a bad day? Soooooo much bashing for nothing...
you know, a normal being is moved often by curiosity, and if I'm a SW fan and I see a Why SW Hate? topic as a SW fan I'd like to see why so many people like to bash 'em.
DarthMarko wrote: Yes..But I'll take fanboy. over hater any day of the week.....
I hate the BA - but I don't read their books and I don't bash them in every post...I wish people would do the same....
This why I like guys like @thenoobbomb - he doesn't like them, but he is always polite when commenting and willing to take an argument....I wish there are more people on dakka like him...
Spot on Marko. Bonus-points to you.
I hate the guys that tells me the Space Wolves are stupid and I should hate them, and goes "WOOOOT?!" when I tells them I like the Space Wolves and I'm willing to defend the chapter. And don't you think Knowitall sent me a PM with the note that I was about as intelligent as a chimp.
Agree. I mean, if someone has his opinions it's one thing, but bash something HE doesn't like simply 'cause... well, he doesn't like it, it's a bit too much IMHO. Oh well.
That's extremely weak for a reason. I mean I don't study the Blood Angels hard, because I find them boring, and I certainly doesn't spam the guys loving Tau going up against their codex with stupid claims about the Tau just because I dislike the Tau.
KnowItAll wrote: Aw, two fanboys found love. How tender. I'm glad I was able to bring you two together, so you can breed more silly adolescents that like silly adolescent things.
Oh yes, I'm totally in love with the fact that some haters brought us togheter. And I'm love with the fact that, while I'm a 17 years old I'm still more mature than you. It's better be a mature teenager or an immature adult?
EDIT: have you ever thought that, while there are teenagers who love the SWs, the major part of the WH40k fanbase is made of 20+ years old guys who simply MAY like the whole Vikings who don't give a damn about anyone in SPACE?
KnowItAll wrote: Aw, two fanboys found love. How tender. I'm glad I was able to bring you two together, so you can breed more silly adolescents that like silly adolescent things.
How old are you? I'm guessing thirteen and where other boys your age were discovering their balls, you are exploring how to be a keyboard-warrior.
Don't lower yourself to his level, if you do so he'll beat you with his experience.
Have you tried to read any other codex? They are all equally bad. I generally take the codexes as how they see themselves (the guys written about in the codex in question). I mean the Space Wolves codex ain't a good read by any means, but that's where the fluff comes from.
Beaviz81 wrote: Have you tried to read any other codex? They are all equally bad. I generally take the codexes as how they see themselves (the guys written about in the codex in question). I mean the Space Wolves codex ain't a good read by any means, but that's where the fluff comes from.
Space Wolf fluff has always been the most egregious. The only thing that comes close is Kaldor Draigo.
And their BL novels are even worse. There is William King, where they are fartin' fightin' drinkin' frat boys, BftF where they remind me of that Chris Rock stand-up about gangsta's who love to keep it real...real dumb, and the HH novels where they are judgemental and arrogant douche-nozzles.
KnowItAll wrote: Space Wolf fluff has always been the most egregious. The only thing that comes close is Kaldor Draigo.
And their BL novels are even worse. There is William King, where they are fartin' fightin' drinkin' frat boys, BftF where they remind me of that Chris Rock stand-up about gangsta's who love to keep it real...real dumb, and the HH novels where they are judgemental and arrogant douche-nozzles.
I bet you say this only 'cause the novels are 'bout SW. Like many people do, so no problem.
Anyone have opinions, yours are simply moved by blind hatred since you're saying that Dan Abnett (who, by the 90% of the 40k community is described like the God of the BL novels) is a bad writer. But surely enough you're right and we're wrong, so please go on and make me laugh some more at your assumptions.
ClassicCarraway wrote:I used to loath Space Wolves until I read Prospero Burns, and gained a bit of respect and appreciation for them. Still doesn't change the fact that I'm not very fond of them.
Part of this stems from the fact that they have been the most OP Marine chapter (not counting GK) since the 2nd edition block of cheddar known as a codex was released. This is made worse by the fact that SW armies always consist of multiple rune priests (sometimes 3-4) for an army that allegedly hates and fears psykers. Oh, and three Longfang squads is pretty standard too, for an army that prefers to make things up close and personal. But that's more about the game play.
As far as the fluff goes, most of their BL stories are mere bolter porn with little to no real character depth. A Thousand Sons really made them out to be total hypocrits, but Prospero Burns softened that perception just a bit. Of course, most of the Horus Heresy novels have taken an almost sympathetic approach to the traitor legions, so its no big surprise the loyalist often come out looking bad.
Actually in 3rd, Blood Angels were recorded in Chapter Approved as having the highest number of wins in tournament play.
Void__Dragon wrote:Point out where it says Wulfen can not be quadrupeds.
Take a gander at Codex Eye of Terror for what GW think Wulfen are to show you how they are not quadrupeds. Of course we also have the beasts encountered deep in the Aett when the dreadnoughts are awoken in Battle of the Fang, which is much more telling as to what happens to failed aspirants that are not disposed of by the Rout. They are surely not Thunderwolves by any stretch, but bipedal wulfen monsters.
KnowItAll wrote: Space Wolf fluff has always been the most egregious. The only thing that comes close is Kaldor Draigo.
And their BL novels are even worse. There is William King, where they are fartin' fightin' drinkin' frat boys, BftF where they remind me of that Chris Rock stand-up about gangsta's who love to keep it real...real dumb, and the HH novels where they are judgemental and arrogant douche-nozzles.
I bet you say this only 'cause the novels are 'bout SW. Like many people do, so no problem.
Anyone have opinions, yours are simply moved by blind hatred since you're saying that Dan Abnett (who, by the 90% of the 40k community is described like the God of the BL novels) is a bad writer. But surely enough you're right and we're wrong, so please go on and make me laugh some more at your assumptions.
Hahaha gold-star to PunkNeverDie.
The only thing I have seen Abnett do sort of wrong was Bequin being a prostitute and a a blank, and the quote VD has been so happy in posting here. For the rest he is God.
KnowItAll wrote: Space Wolf fluff has always been the most egregious. The only thing that comes close is Kaldor Draigo.
And their BL novels are even worse. There is William King, where they are fartin' fightin' drinkin' frat boys, BftF where they remind me of that Chris Rock stand-up about gangsta's who love to keep it real...real dumb, and the HH novels where they are judgemental and arrogant douche-nozzles.
I bet you say this only 'cause the novels are 'bout SW. Like many people do, so no problem.
Anyone have opinions, yours are simply moved by blind hatred since you're saying that Dan Abnett (who, by the 90% of the 40k community is described like the God of the BL novels) is a bad writer. But surely enough you're right and we're wrong, so please go on and make me laugh some more at your assumptions.
Well, for what it's worth, the BA novels were pretty bad too, but they weren't juvenile, just really boring.
As for Dan Abnett, I didn't say he was a bad writer, he writes pretty good generic sci-fi, it's his Space Marines that are ridiculous. And anyway, saying someone is the "best BL author" is like saying he is the smartest kid with Down's syndrome.
Well, for what it's worth, the BA novels were pretty bad too, but they weren't juvenile, just really boring.
As for Dan Abnett, I didn't say he was a bad writer, he writes pretty good generic sci-fi, it's his Space Marines that are ridiculous. And anyway, saying someone is the "best BL author" is like saying he is the smartest kid with Down's syndrome.
The Space Wolves are like that fat kid you knew in elementary school who brought in the biggest and best lunch, but still wanted to dip his grubby fingers in your lunch when you were not looking.
I feel like, in stereotypical high school terms, that Russ is the jock and a bully. Whilst Horus is the jock that everyone gets along with, and Sanguinius is the nicer-hearted, less-in-your-face kid that everyone gets along with. Whereas Corax seems like the guy you/no-one speaks to, but is in reality a really nice, great guy.
I was thinking about it the other day, and that's how I pictured the Primarch's in the comparisons people often make.
Magnus is the guy the schoolyard-bully is picking on, the Khan is the not verbal sidekick of the the bully. Dorn is the teacher's pet, while Perturbo is the wanna-be teacher's pet. Mortarion is the kid with disabilities, the Salamander Primarch is the token black kid, Robute Guilliman is another version of the teacher's pet, Alpharius and Kurze are the emo-guys wearing black, Angron is also a schoolyard bully, Fulgrim is the casanova every girl likes and the list goes on.
And Empy is the sort of gullible teacher that plays favorites.
out of proportion :-)about your favorite legion * blam* hate trolls go out...
that bursts out of his power armor, (Which considering the strength of Power Armor..) becomes able to rip Land Raiders (With Smash at S10) He gains the ability to fleet (most likely because his body has changed to accommodate it)
