S, In my game tonight i was playing tau v. eldar i kept hearing tau hate. Like how i can ignore cover, how i dont have the things modeled on, I do BTW, but certain things like EWO or MSS or Command and control node don't have official war gear. The guy was nice and a little frustrated but he is a good friend so i gave him a break. But still the table behind me(Necron v Eldar) I kept hearing tau trash, how we rendered his flyers obsolete, how we killed 600pts in one shot and so forth.
Why do i keep encountering Tau hate, but not DA hate, or deamon hate, or eldar hate?
Because no matter how "balanced" things are in an edition someone is going to cry OMGOP!!!!! I was just hanging out at my FLGS and this orky player was bitching about how Tau and Eldar just blew the balance of 6th edition waaaaay out again. I dont think they have honestly. But im not going to not play Tau no matter how much hate there is because Ive been a fan since Day 1.
Screw you all! Im glad to be considered a power house finally! Its as it should be anyways
hotsauceman1 wrote: S, In my game tonight i was playing tau v. eldar i kept hearing tau hate. Like how i can ignore cover, how i dont have the things modeled on, I do BTW, but certain things like EWO or MSS or Command and control node don't have official war gear. The guy was nice and a little frustrated but he is a good friend so i gave him a break. But still the table behind me(Necron v Eldar) I kept hearing tau trash, how we rendered his flyers obsolete, how we killed 600pts in one shot and so forth.
Why do i keep encountering Tau hate, but not DA hate, or deamon hate, or eldar hate?
It just seems like every unit has SOMETHING for every situation. The gravity drone that lowers charges an entire army of overwatch (Granted it's not everyone but you catch my drift) ignoring cover and destroying whole units. I think tau are a great army and because of 6th's rules will stay top tier. I just think they have a little something or in some unit's case a lot of something for every situation. It could also be that they weren't that great last edition and with a sudden new surge of power people weren't ready for them and now seeing them in a state of power is new and upsets them...
I think that you don't hear as much Dark angels or daemons hate is because they have a lot of gambles in those armies like most armies do now. Dark angels bank on a lot of plasma and deep striking daemons have their silly table and half their army is cc based. So it's about a trade that tau (in my mind) don't have to make sitting safely behind fortifications plunking away at people praying that no one makes it into cc...which even if they do they're probably not going to live the overwatch or the drone will limit the charge and they may not even make it in...
Ask the Necron player about his Death Ray if he's whining about Tau one-shotting 600 Pts.
I've seen more than that go up.
As to rendering flyers obselete.... Necron Cheese Croissants is broken gak. It's about time someone got a counter to it.
I have no issue with Tau. I used to play them, and i'm always up for a game with them. It's always a challenge for my Orks.
I also used to play Necrons (oldcrons), but i'd rather stick my taj in a toaster than play most Necron players these days. Some are better, but most of the ones i've run into are insufferable TFGs.
Same goes with Grey Knights. Used to play Daemonhunters, gave them up. Current GK are more taj-toaster bait (with only one GK player i've met really being worth spending any time around).
Even if its only until the Next codex comes out that people feel the need to cry about lol Im still waitin on all armies to get a 6th update! I really hope they do it!
Tau seemed to be the butt of every joke and any top tier army could table them quick with a power build. Now Tau can fight back and everyones panties are in a bunch.
Mecha_buddha wrote: Tau seemed to be the butt of every joke and any top tier army could table them quick with a power build. Now Tau can fight back and everyones panties are in a bunch.
This.
Its probably because in the last Tau book everything was underpowered or overcosted. This put them pretty far behind the 6th edition curve. Their new book which brings them up to speed is such a jump in power compared to their last book, that it only seems like they are OP, when compared to the last book. Truth is they are still the highly synergistic army they were in the last book but don't have any power units inherited from fifth (since they weren't around then). They are still (imo) behind sabre guard and cron air in terms of raw power. Additionally, the Riptide means that they gained a special weakness to ABG lists (beast killer shells anyone?).
It's always kind of nice to look at what we Tau have now and compare it to what we had around the tail end of 5th edition.
Seriously though, I've noticed this too. I think it's because Tau completely hose a lot of builds that people thought were good before, and they require some change of strategy to get around (or, sad to say, dumb luck in the case of some older codexes). In my case I played against a drop pod Blood Angels army. For some reason he seemed to think the best way to kill Tau would be a lot of drop pods (it is, but 3 at 1500 is not "a lot"). The amount of interceptor we have is pretty darn good. I don't think I have to tell you how that went for him.
Also we're pretty much the acme of shooting in a very shooty edition (imperial guard get numbers, but our toys are better). I think lots of close combat bittervets personify their dislike of 6th edition mechanics on us because we're so shooty. Can't really blame them, because we are.
Because they suck and kill all my Raiders/Ravagers/Venoms without anyway for me to stop them.
Or that's what I thought my first game. They are new and bring a whole new range of tactics and abilities to the table. They require severe adjustment in play style. What most people still complaining seem to hate is that it breaks most of the easier win tournament lists. Once the meta adjusts and people get over the fact they can't just win by list alone, I imagine the hate will go away.
But seriously, I need my cover. I'm going to turn every Tau I see into a grotesque and send him to burn down his old empire.
If your friend is doing it, throw some crap back on his army. He's playing Eldar, he's got the newest codex and plenty of new stuff for you to sling back. Just friendly sledging during a game.
If people you don't know playing another game are doing it, simply ignore them. It's not worth even noting what random neckbeards at your FLGS think if they're people you never interact with anyway.
Caring about what random grognards have to say is a surefire way to get annoyed with the overall hobby.
I fuel my nova reactors on the tears of whiners...and listen to the wailing of cheese from the gaping holes left by my railguns...keep crying all that will do is let us know where to aim the markerlights.
anyway, just play and have fun, people will always bitch and moan about something.
-Loki- wrote: Just a question - why do you even care?
If your friend is doing it, throw some crap back on his army. He's playing Eldar, he's got the newest codex and plenty of new stuff for you to sling back. Just friendly sledging during a game.
If people you don't know playing another game are doing it, simply ignore them. It's not worth even noting what random neckbeards at your FLGS think if they're people you never interact with anyway.
Caring about what random grognards have to say is a surefire way to get annoyed with the overall hobby.
1: I hate being told the same thing over and over again.
2: I hate being made to feel bad for the army i play
3: These are regular clubbers who i have to deal with every week, I wish they wouldnt tell the new guys "Tau is evil"
But really, I can see the point that the Tau are a really good codex. That said, the old Tau Codex was one of the worst with the most decay on it, and I really like the new one. Like, when Grey Knights first came out I really hated them because they were good at everything and the point of Space Marines is that they're Jack of all Trades, Master of None and all that.
But the new Tau Codex is good at what the Tau are supposed to do: Shoot. And it accomplishes being the most shooty army out there well, imo. So, I have no hate for the Tau, they're good, but they're good at what they're supposed to be good at, and I don't feel like it's game breaking in that regard.
Don't worry, hotsauce - it's not you, it's the hobby.
For some reason, Warhammer 40k turns everyone who plays it British. Part of that is an inability to go for ten minutes without complaining about something minor, just to make sure everyone knows you're OK.
My two factions that I own the most of: Tau and Ultramarines.
My advice, bathe in the hate. I was a FW/Kroot/Broadside player years ago... now its almost embarrassing how mean my Tau list is... 80+ Kroot, 6 Missile Sides, Longstrike, ADL with FW behind it... loving it.
But yeah, it won't last. GW likes to make $$.. therefore SM > Tau after next dex. All the SM need is cheaper Sternguard and cheaper Thunderfire cannons... give vanguards USR a longer range and Tau players start giving back those collected tears. Enjoy it while it lasts.
I've long had a distaste for Tau, and that was even when they were an underpowered army. Just because they've gotten stronger doesn't bother me, nor has it made me suddenly dislike them when I thought they were okay before.
My problem with tau is that they've always been an army whose primary play style exists to shut down their opponent's ability to play the game. That's not only bad, and frustrating, but worse - boring.
To illustrate my point, look at what is basically the anti-tau: foot horde armies. If you show up with a gunline, you will get to shoot the crap out of a foot horde. If you show up with a close combat army, you're all but guaranteed to revel in the glory of wiping out several dozen models with chainswords. If you show up with mobility, you'll get a chance to outmaneuver. Win or lose, horde armies are great to fight against, because you're pretty much guaranteed to at least get a chance to play your army the way it's designed to be played. Hell, even when I tabled people with my power blob army, the most common reply I got was "well, at least I got to kill a lot of guardsmen". They got to feel good about accomplishing something, even when, in the end, I ran right over them.
Tau, traditionally (well, and currently) are the opposite of that. They seem to exist for no other purpose than to make your opponent repack their minis without getting to ever use them.
You brought a gunline? Well, too bad, because I get to move and shoot you and then move back out of LOS, so you can't sit and shoot me. You brought close combat? Well, good luck ever swinging a chainsword, because you're never, EVER going to see an assault phase. You brought a deepstrike army? Say hello to large blast interceptors, and goodbye to your ability to do anything this game.
Win or lose, I'd like to actually PLAY a game of 40k. You know, where we both actually get to do something. Tau have long had the nasty habit of shutting down your opponent's involvement until you're pretty much just playing with yourself...
I don't think it's fair to blame Tau for that though, I mean if you run the right list you can do the same thing with the Grey Knights or the Space Wolves, for example.
Which are actually, imo, more deserving of hate because at least Tau are supposed to operate that way, Space Marines on the other hand are not.
I'll be completely honest here, I have an irrational hatred of Tau, Eldar, and Dark Eldar.
As in I literally hate those armies.
Their fluff, their playstyle, how they look on the table, everything.
I've never been able to pin down why. I never hold it against the people I play against, but it's definitely a real thing.
I'm also sure I'm probably not the only person who has this problem.
Maybe you're just running into some people with a stupidly unjustifiable hatred of your army, just like there are people have an odd dislike of any other army in the game. I wouldn't take it personally. Lord knows I've earned plenty of ire for playing IG, and I'm sure I'll get some whenever the new Orks codex comes out.
Also
hotsauceman1 wrote:Why do i keep encountering Tau hate, but not DA hate, or deamon hate, or eldar hate?
If you don't play those armies, you're less likely to hear crap about them. I almost never hear griping about blood angels for example. Know why? Because I don't have a blood angels army. Trust me, every codex deals with this to some degree.
I have never played Tau as there aren't that many Tau players in my gaming group, but I have always thought they were pretty cool. Furthermore, I play DA and I proxy things all the time. This hobby is very expensive and I am not very good and magnetizing things. If someone is going to throw a fit over a game because I don't have a GD level painted army with no proxies, I just won't play them.
Plus, I don't understand why a Necron player would be hating on everyone else. From what I have seen on Dakka, in general, Necrons are considered a very powerful army. I have had my behind handed to me more than a few times by Necrons.
I think it all comes down to sportsmanship. We spend a very large amount of time and money on our hobby, but at the end of the day it is just a game. If someone is going to hate on you for playing the game and following the rules of a sanctioned army, then they don't sound like someone I would ever want to play.
Maurepas wrote:I don't think it's fair to blame Tau for that though, I mean if you run the right list you can do the same thing with the Grey Knights or the Space Wolves, for example.
I can certainly agree with this with regard to deepstriking armies against GK, but I don't see how the rest of it applies.
Really, it feels like against tau it's more a matter of struggling to get to play at all. The fact that 99.9% of tau players play gunlines doesn't help either.
If it were merely a matter of tau being overpowered, I really wouldn't be complaining. I mean, you don't see me harping on necron players, or, a year ago, on GK players. It's not what power you have, but how you use it that's important.
2x210 wrote: Tau are the newest dex, not everyone has learned to handle them hence the hate
Don't worry in a month or two they will forget the Tau hate and bitch about space marines instead
That's Eldar now. It's the usual, but I remember there always being a bit of hate towards the Tau anyway. It's not like you couldn't ignore cover with markerlights before, it's just now they know about it.
Ailaros wrote: I've long had a distaste for Tau, and that was even when they were an underpowered army. Just because they've gotten stronger doesn't bother me, nor has it made me suddenly dislike them when I thought they were okay before.
My problem with tau is that they've always been an army whose primary play style exists to shut down their opponent's ability to play the game. That's not only bad, and frustrating, but worse - boring.
To illustrate my point, look at what is basically the anti-tau: foot horde armies. If you show up with a gunline, you will get to shoot the crap out of a foot horde. If you show up with a close combat army, you're all but guaranteed to revel in the glory of wiping out several dozen models with chainswords. If you show up with mobility, you'll get a chance to outmaneuver. Win or lose, horde armies are great to fight against, because you're pretty much guaranteed to at least get a chance to play your army the way it's designed to be played. Hell, even when I tabled people with my power blob army, the most common reply I got was "well, at least I got to kill a lot of guardsmen". They got to feel good about accomplishing something, even when, in the end, I ran right over them.
Tau, traditionally (well, and currently) are the opposite of that. They seem to exist for no other purpose than to make your opponent repack their minis without getting to ever use them.
You brought a gunline? Well, too bad, because I get to move and shoot you and then move back out of LOS, so you can't sit and shoot me. You brought close combat? Well, good luck ever swinging a chainsword, because you're never, EVER going to see an assault phase. You brought a deepstrike army? Say hello to large blast interceptors, and goodbye to your ability to do anything this game.
Win or lose, I'd like to actually PLAY a game of 40k. You know, where we both actually get to do something. Tau have long had the nasty habit of shutting down your opponent's involvement until you're pretty much just playing with yourself...
I am Oh so much on your side here. It's my sentiments exactly.
Half my games are against tau as my group is small, and he always cracks out the "if you get into CC I'm screwed!"
More often than not in games against him I do not manage to get into a single close combat. What does it matter if you're weak in CC if you plow down everything I have trying to get there?
As a GK, I tried countering it once by using an enormous amount of jump troops with flamers and dropping everything onto the field. I held back the jumps (because I can leap 30") so I had almost everything dropping right on top of him. Clearly, I can't charge that first turn, but the idea was to hamper his shooting as much as I could, weather one turn of shooting and then charge.
I had one unit that managed to charge. He destroyed EVERYTHING standing right next to him in one turn. he didn't even try to move away. He just gunlined my whole army.
I would really enjoy actually getting to play the game at some point. Having a close combat where the units are on eachother, and the characters in that unit are trying to gain the upper hand, that sort of stuff is fun.
Just attempting to roll across the board in rhinos, having everything blow up after 6 inches, is not.
Army that went for years at the bottom of the barrel, all of a sudden is at the top of the list and everyone and their brother slings hate at it...no, no idea what the OP is talking about.
I never had much problems with Tau, and I usually trashed them with SoB. I still trash them even with a new Codex so maybe the Tau player hasn't quite adjusted to it either.
The only explanation for complaints is probably that it's new. Some players have to think in a different way and they just can't take it after spamming a couple different cheese lists since the start of sixth. Lists which still work against very many other armies even.
Their supposed weakness almost never comes into play. Oh and if you try outshooting them they ignore your cover so that's not a safe bet either. I try to get sacrificial models into CC to waste their overwatch for say a Trygon to come in, but one or the other element of the plan always ends up dying before doing anything.
Individual Tau units aren't overpowered, but as a whole? They are one of the most frustrating armies to play against. At least most of the older Tau players are pretty nice, unlike far too many Necron players who are the definition of TFG.
I think a strong list is incredibly tough to beat, they just have a hard counter to almost everything. Sure it's nice to have someone to counter Cron Air, but that means they absolutely destroy other flyers. Sure it's nice to be able to counter drop pods, but that means they destroy all deep striking/outflanking.
Cover? nope. This leaves a lot of armies (bike armies, Eldar in particular) significantly weakened.
LOS? Don't need it for quite a few things.
I like the codex but I do feel it might be slightly too powerful, their only weakness seems to be close combat and it's really difficult to get there!
I'll confess I have a dislike for Tau. Granted it might be because the player in our group that uses them gun lines and whines how half his army was lost whilst he tabled me .
Anyways. For me I think it is a combination. One, I tend to play assault armies. Bar a recent thrust into mechguard (planning on going for chimera and hellhound frontal strike with slow moving russes advancing from ), I play CSM throwing in assault units whenever possible and chaos daemons to reap enemies apart in close combat. As you might know, 6the edition is the slap in the face of assault armies. Want to deep strike to get close? Intercept, he uses drones and constantly whispers of his desire to use dark strider frequently mentioning that d6 retreat. Also crazy over the top overwatch.
Finally, my friend raves on about how bad they are in cc. He even points to how they only have a WS of 2. Yet the problem is... their supposed weakness isn't really that much of a weakness. First of all, a WS of 2 will still hit an enemy on a 4+ unless their WS is 5. Meaning that most enemies they will still hit half the time. Now comes the question... how do you assault Tau? Do you deep strike and weather a turn of shooting and intercept? Or do you run across the battlefield as your cover is ripped away and hit by STR5 guns? Each time you lose a model it is taken from the front meaning any progress you made is slowly lost. Finally you have made it to the enemy abusing los blocking terrain and random running distance rolls. Now you try and assault. Yet even now you are not safe! Tau have supporting overwatch, marker light overwatch, units with bs2 overwatch, drones, dark strider, jet pack units that will shoot then fly away. And when you finally make it into cc you will likely sweep them meaning all the guns will turn against your assaulting units. Try MC? Well Kroot sniper guns for only about 9 points!
I will always fight a Tau player if I like them though. I don't play it that seriously and only fight my friends so even if I have a distaste for them, it isn't worth whining over. I'll just take it as the ultimate challenge of an assault army!
In terms of reason why people insult Tau so much.... as others have mentioned. Crons, GK, IG, CSM, etc. All get their fair share of flakk. I once got flakked for playing chaos because of the drake even though I bought it, played it 2 times and then shelved it as it was never fair against my friends and ruined the fun. Problem is they are your army! So the jabs are ever so slightly pointed at you. Along with that, they were unpopular for the longest time. Now? I have seen them every time I go to my 2 local FLGS and to be rather frank they are an odd army to fight. Conventional protection is thrown away which infuriates individuals that rely on cover (assault dark Eldar and IG) and can now threaten deep strikers and even fliers. It is likely due simply to the fact that they have gone from both a few players, a suboptimal army, and obscure to a very common sight with arguably the best codex of the 6th edition (although still rather balanced)
MrMoustaffa wrote: I'll be completely honest here, I have an irrational hatred of Tau, Eldar, and Dark Eldar.
As in I literally hate those armies.
Their fluff, their playstyle, how they look on the table, everything.
I've never been able to pin down why. I never hold it against the people I play against, but it's definitely a real thing.
I'm also sure I'm probably not the only person who has this problem.
Maybe you're just running into some people with a stupidly unjustifiable hatred of your army, just like there are people have an odd dislike of any other army in the game. I wouldn't take it personally. Lord knows I've earned plenty of ire for playing IG, and I'm sure I'll get some whenever the new Orks codex comes out.
Also
hotsauceman1 wrote:Why do i keep encountering Tau hate, but not DA hate, or deamon hate, or eldar hate?
If you don't play those armies, you're less likely to hear crap about them. I almost never hear griping about blood angels for example. Know why? Because I don't have a blood angels army. Trust me, every codex deals with this to some degree.
This whole post is me. I have an unrequited hate of Orks and to a lesser extent Imperial Guard. Playing nothing but Space Wolves for a while has taught me to love them... Eventually you start to think like your army.
And don't get my started on my four Thunderwolves trashing someone's gunline because they're too busy focusing on the throw away suicide drop pod hunters. It's just target priority and I still catch so much flakk for how OP thunderwolves are.
Ask me how tired I am of hearing "BUT 6TH EDITION IS ABOUT MOBS OF RANGED UNITS, YOU CAN'T HAVE VIABLE ELITE CC IN 6TH EDITION" but of course when someone unloads assault terminators out of a Redeemer into someone's face it was just good strategy -.- It's just my Thunderwolves that are cheese with fur... Whatever. I don't let it get to me, I just unload the Thunder Hammer and Rending hurt and take my beatings when someone actually prioritizes correctly.
But do I get trash talk about the Gun drone swarm or the fleet of Eldar hover tanks in my closet? Of course not.
People seem to ignore that tau also got weaknesses in having the worst leadership in the game, and are easy as feth to kill vital units.
Pathfinders will fold if you sneeze on them, warriors are not much harder.
Have a shard of targeting priority skills, and it's fair game. It's just that people are too used to beating tau by just running at them with no retaliation.
The days you can win by simply walking forward and kicking ass are over. Unless you are necron who spams the undercoated options, they can pull it off.
BoomWolf wrote: People seem to ignore that tau also got weaknesses in having the worst leadership in the game, and are easy as feth to kill vital units.
Pathfinders will fold if you sneeze on them, warriors are not much harder.
Have a shard of targeting priority skills, and it's fair game. It's just that people are too used to beating tau by just running at them with no retaliation.
The days you can win by simply walking forward and kicking ass are over. Unless you are necron who spams the undercoated options, they can pull it off.
I assume that is why so many Tau bring Etherials? The question is.... how do I pick off these units? Especially when you can't get snipers (chaos)? It is difficult to outshoot them and cc is a madman's game against tau?
Oh! And if they ever criticize that you don't need to model, chaos has a lot of upgrades they don't need to model for! Chaos daemons with rewards and CSM with various upgrades. To be frank it seems like more and more armies are getting things you don't have a real simple way to model it, or perhaps this is a games workshop ploy to make you buy 10 of the same exact mod*blam* (you mentioned Necrons as well)
I don't mind playing the Tau but I do moaning and groaning when absolutely none of my orks can get to them, but its more of a joking fun moan and groan. And I have been tabled a couple of times
To keep ir short and simple, bring this on your phone. Video is nice, but MP3 is enough and present evidence after they start whining.
Another fine option would be to just reply "Would you like some with your Whine?".
No, really, it's the best you can do. I always get flak for playing Necrons even though I don't play the uber competitive lists! No Wraithwing or Flying Bakery for me. They QQ about res protocols, they cry about my Quantum Shielding, they cry about my Gauss, seeesh.
If possible, create a gaming shirt as well. This is the image I'm planning to get. You either get mad or just make fun of them. I prefer to troll my friends for whining about my Necrons.
shamikebab wrote: I think a strong list is incredibly tough to beat, they just have a hard counter to almost everything.
Still, in my games vs them I've found that when your army has no ponies the Tau can't destroy you by wiping out the ponies. If all you rely on is one trick then you'll either wipe out most armies or lose horribly.
SoB has Rhinos and Immolators to move units and Exorcist tanks that ID those nasty Tau suits. Also Outflanking squads for tank hunting. And lots of bolters, flamers and melta. And that's it, except for the Faith powers that no one can counter (but are nowhere as OP as psykers or some necron/chaos wargear). There's nothing for Tau to "shut down". I'll often lose a horrible amount of sisters but there are no tricks I miss out on. I'll usually outnumber them by a lot even in a small game and victory by attrition is still a victory.
edit: and ofc, the Tau only have those suits that can take advantage of the worst SoB weakness - CC.
This whole post is me. I have an unrequited hate of Orks and to a lesser extent Imperial Guard. Playing nothing but Space Wolves for a while has taught me to love them... Eventually you start to think like your army.
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Thats funny cause im a ork player that use to hate the space wolves. Well I still hate Fangs of the wolf lord, or what ever its called, probable one of the cheapest powers ever created......ever
I think it is normal level of envy/hate for a new powerful codex. Don't let it get to you and try borrowing a friend's IG/necrons/CSM/etc. so you can here some of those comments too.
I do agree though that Tau are so much about negating the opponent's strengths that it can be annoying at times. You pay alot of points for those abilities and having them completely negated can kill the fun. This is not a big deal if 1/10th of your games are Tau but when 1/3 of the players are suddenly Tau you start wondering why you bother taking a camo cloak or any of those other fancy options in your codex.
Playing devils advocate (for an Eldar perspective), playing Tau is playing at a significant disadvantage, as most of our durability is reliant on something your codex ignores by design (coversaves). Also, Eldar require some time and maneuvering to get plans to pull off correctly, so Nightfighting is a massive boon to us, from a playability standpoint, but tau just get to go 'lol no, blacksun filters'. The fun if playing Eldar is getting to pull of complex maneuvering and strategies and it takes a lot of fun out of it taking turn 1 alphastrikes in our 150pt transports.. least now we've been given Serpent Shields to pull the same crap.
Now me, I do like a challenge and I don't believe this should be a game of homogeneous balance, as that'd just lead to boring, homogeneous factions. The fact of the matter is as a Tau player you need to recognise this and not be a jerk about it. Some matchups are unbalanced by design.. I remember reading that even though DE rarely win GTs they often place well and cause headaches for other teams due to their wildly changing favourable/unfavourable matchups, theyre a 'kingmaker' faction. It is a social game in the end and while there is a fair bit of crybaby bitching whenever the meta balance shifts, there is still a responsibility of both players to make the game fun for each other.
People will always find something to complain about, either being OP or UP it doesnt matter they'll find it.
Tau are, as of right now, the only race that the average well-rounded list tends to counter the majority of FOTM lists going around. Necron flier spam? Cool, my 500pts or so of Missilesides says no...no no fliers here... Deepstriking termies (or anything else for that matter)? Cool, intercepting pi plates ftw. Once people learn what does decently well against Tau and isnt 100% tailored for tau (thus, suck against other races) the whambulance will stop coming around as much.
That is rather comical that a necron cheesflier complained about tau anti air. Most broken list in the game finally has something to worry about? Let me get my teacup for those tears...
Tau are getting a lot of flakk because you have to understand a lot of people do not like gunline armies in the first place. Show me a single person excited to play against a good guard player and I'll call you a liar end of story. With this editions heavy focus on mandating gunfire most armies thought "yeah, alright sweet like a real war." I on the other hand started thinking about what that would mean for armies like guard, eldar and tau and sure enough I don't think I have been very wrong. I personally do not hate tau but I understand Tau hate quite well.
Arguably equipped with the best point for point infantry in the game due to the heavy shooting focus, able to deny charges with alarming accuracy, if I am not mistaken still maintain defensive grenades, gain a benefit from ageis defense line cheese while others won't, and strong enough gun to deal with any armor even the dreaded land raider. It's a hard sale because the army just synergizes so stupidly well that most players fell like the Tau don't require higher brain function or tactics to play, just a nice LOS area and ready to exit strategy. For many players this is just a very well built hard to crack nut especially considering all the rules in favor of accurate high power shooting
Personally as an Ork player I've put my Orks on Hiatus till our Codex creep because I am not a fan of having to compete with such dated rules (and my FLGS kinda killed the joy of the game for me for awhile) I would place money down that these people are more or less passing the tradition of "new codex? I hate that S**T!" but some might not understand how to counter tau which I have heard alarmingly little explaining their weaknesses more people's ego's miffed that their codex would be blammed upon as countless others before them.
*Shrug* that is just this Green-skin's view of the situation. you boyz got the best quality dakka in the game and exit strats which a lot of people cannot actually counter, personally i feel this edition/company has been power boosting the crap out of anything that hasn't been selling well. Wraithguard & vehicles for eldar, tau in general, necron in general, grey knights in general. I wouldn't take it personal but like all insults they have some founding of fact.
shamikebab wrote: I think a strong list is incredibly tough to beat, they just have a hard counter to almost everything. Sure it's nice to have someone to counter Cron Air, but that means they absolutely destroy other flyers. Sure it's nice to be able to counter drop pods, but that means they destroy all deep striking/outflanking.
Cover? nope. This leaves a lot of armies (bike armies, Eldar in particular) significantly weakened.
LOS? Don't need it for quite a few things.
I like the codex but I do feel it might be slightly too powerful, their only weakness seems to be close combat and it's really difficult to get there!
Yeah, I hate to say this, but I think Tau are currently a bit Mary Sue-ish. I mean, they have no discernible weaknesses. Even their frailty in CC is off set by supporting fire (I think that's what it's called, anyway), and you won't have more models than they have have shots, thanks to their ability to completely remove cover.
I do like that they stopped the dominance of flyers thanks to their strong AA presence, but being able to nuke anything on the board the moment it arrives from reserves is going a bit too far imo.
Necrons at least have a limited kill zone, and can be engaged in CC.
Actually Big Mek.. it appears as though Tau forces have trouble against armor 14. Only the Hammerhead is S10 (needs 3+ to hit and still needs a 5+ to Pen), Riptides can only get up to S9 (after passing Nova, not scattering, and then still need a 6 to pen), and Fusion Blasters (which have to be close). I watched a game the other day where a Chaos player running Abbadon, Chosen, and several Land Raiders ran through your typical meta-tau without pause.
Leman Russ squadrons, mechguard, and mechdar, etc. cause Tau to hyperventilate. Especially when you have the firepower to take out the pathfinders turn one.
Nightwolf829 wrote: Actually Big Mek.. it appears as though Tau forces have trouble against armor 14. Only the Hammerhead is S10 (needs 3+ to hit and still needs a 5+ to Pen), Riptides can only get up to S9 (after passing Nova, not scattering, and then still need a 6 to pen), and Fusion Blasters (which have to be close). I watched a game the other day where a Chaos player running Abbadon, Chosen, and several Land Raiders ran through your typical meta-tau without pause.
Leman Russ squadrons, mechguard, and mechdar, etc. cause Tau to hyperventilate. Especially when you have the firepower to take out the pathfinders turn one.
Ai, but what about the armies that don't have AV14? What would nids and DE do? Necrons could use the monolith, but there's still nothing to stop the Tau from nuking half their army on turn 1, and it's so slow that it makes a poor C'tan / wraith delivery system, not to mention you still can't charge, meaning that you will take a turn of shooting first, followed by overwatch.
Nightwolf829 wrote: Actually Big Mek.. it appears as though Tau forces have trouble against armor 14. Only the Hammerhead is S10 (needs 3+ to hit and still needs a 5+ to Pen), Riptides can only get up to S9 (after passing Nova, not scattering, and then still need a 6 to pen), and Fusion Blasters (which have to be close). I watched a game the other day where a Chaos player running Abbadon, Chosen, and several Land Raiders ran through your typical meta-tau without pause.
Leman Russ squadrons, mechguard, and mechdar, etc. cause Tau to hyperventilate. Especially when you have the firepower to take out the pathfinders turn one.
Nightwolf829 wrote: Actually Big Mek.. it appears as though Tau forces have trouble against armor 14. Only the Hammerhead is S10 (needs 3+ to hit and still needs a 5+ to Pen), Riptides can only get up to S9 (after passing Nova, not scattering, and then still need a 6 to pen), and Fusion Blasters (which have to be close). I watched a game the other day where a Chaos player running Abbadon, Chosen, and several Land Raiders ran through your typical meta-tau without pause.
Leman Russ squadrons, mechguard, and mechdar, etc. cause Tau to hyperventilate. Especially when you have the firepower to take out the pathfinders turn one.
Tanks that JSJ Fusion suits can fry instantly.
They could also donkey punch the tanks. Never forget about the donkey punches.
Tbh i hate playing against Tau so hard I am thinking about selling my IG stuff and starting Tau myself... They just feel more like actual military with their combined arms approach. On the other hand it feels like jumping the bandwagon... Since their release suddenly everyone in my FLGS has a Tau army out of nowhere
Nightwolf829 wrote: Actually Big Mek.. it appears as though Tau forces have trouble against armor 14. Only the Hammerhead is S10 (needs 3+ to hit and still needs a 5+ to Pen), Riptides can only get up to S9 (after passing Nova, not scattering, and then still need a 6 to pen), and Fusion Blasters (which have to be close). I watched a game the other day where a Chaos player running Abbadon, Chosen, and several Land Raiders ran through your typical meta-tau without pause.
Leman Russ squadrons, mechguard, and mechdar, etc. cause Tau to hyperventilate. Especially when you have the firepower to take out the pathfinders turn one.
Tanks that JSJ Fusion suits can fry instantly.
They could also donkey punch the tanks. Never forget about the donkey punches.
My group can't decide if we should call it donkey punches (which is funny on its own) or "ownager gauntlet" since the first time my friend fielded it, his unit got into combat, he couldn't pronounce the word, it became ownager and promptly owned the terminator captain that thought getting into cc with Tau was the right thing to do. It should be though, shouldn't it?
Ailaros wrote: I've long had a distaste for Tau, and that was even when they were an underpowered army. Just because they've gotten stronger doesn't bother me, nor has it made me suddenly dislike them when I thought they were okay before.
My problem with tau is that they've always been an army whose primary play style exists to shut down their opponent's ability to play the game. That's not only bad, and frustrating, but worse - boring.
To illustrate my point, look at what is basically the anti-tau: foot horde armies. If you show up with a gunline, you will get to shoot the crap out of a foot horde. If you show up with a close combat army, you're all but guaranteed to revel in the glory of wiping out several dozen models with chainswords. If you show up with mobility, you'll get a chance to outmaneuver. Win or lose, horde armies are great to fight against, because you're pretty much guaranteed to at least get a chance to play your army the way it's designed to be played. Hell, even when I tabled people with my power blob army, the most common reply I got was "well, at least I got to kill a lot of guardsmen". They got to feel good about accomplishing something, even when, in the end, I ran right over them.
Tau, traditionally (well, and currently) are the opposite of that. They seem to exist for no other purpose than to make your opponent repack their minis without getting to ever use them.
You brought a gunline? Well, too bad, because I get to move and shoot you and then move back out of LOS, so you can't sit and shoot me. You brought close combat? Well, good luck ever swinging a chainsword, because you're never, EVER going to see an assault phase. You brought a deepstrike army? Say hello to large blast interceptors, and goodbye to your ability to do anything this game.
Win or lose, I'd like to actually PLAY a game of 40k. You know, where we both actually get to do something. Tau have long had the nasty habit of shutting down your opponent's involvement until you're pretty much just playing with yourself...
I totally agree...and thats why i love Tau. You really can shut down the enemy if everything goes right. Its when things go wrong that it really gets interesting. I can shut down 4/5 armies I play but that 1 that I cant or has a counter will cause serious trouble. I like figuring out ways to close down the enemy. My aim with Tau is to not only win but also take minimum casualties which fits really well with the fluff (if you care about that sort of thing).
That being said its not easy to shut down an opponants force. Each enemy will take a different tact but overall that same ability to shut down the enemy is Tau's strongest weapon and thats one of the reasons people play them. The same reason people play IG to completly overwhelm the enemy which can make opponants feel just as helpless as being shut down by a good Tau player.
May have already been asked in one of the long replies but how are you one shotting 600 points of crons?
i was under the impression if the flyer is detroyed the unit "in it" go into on-going reserve don't they? they don't just die when the flyer does do they?
What people fail to realize is that Tau are fairly durable considering their marine stats on suits and decent saves on drones/FWs.
I often find my opponents try to maneuver carefully around terrain turn 1-2 while I take shots at their exposed units who are not fully behind cover or made poor run roles. Then turn 3 they "unleash hell" by moving into good shooting positions and charge range.
However...... that doesn't mean they land every single shot or that they will roll double 6s for charge range. So what ends up happening is that they are now in very poor positions for my shooting phase after I have already been shooting them for 2 turns.
Many people (regardless of what army their opponent uses) always make plans based on everything working out perfectly for them - due to Tau's range prowess this way of thinking has even harsher consequences.
I found my most successful opponents simply said "screw it" and rushed my lines. It is better to take one harsh turn of shooting and overwatch then to spread it out over 3 turns.
mixer86 wrote: May have already been asked in one of the long replies but how are you one shotting 600 points of crons?
i was under the impression if the flyer is detroyed the unit "in it" go into on-going reserve don't they? they don't just die when the flyer does do they?
No, they are not destroyed. However, they will go in reserves, and then have to walk the rest of the way from the board edge, where they will be shot many, many times with missiles.
mixer86 wrote: May have already been asked in one of the long replies but how are you one shotting 600 points of crons?
i was under the impression if the flyer is detroyed the unit "in it" go into reserve don't they? they don't just die when the flyer does do they?
Aye, the necron FAQ put the transported unit on a Night Scythe straight into reserves, don't pass Crash and Burn. But they're now walking on from the necron table edge and most likely useless for a couple of turns. But the comment could have been about something else, or from someone who hasn't read the new FAQ and habitually loses full Courts with Overlords to Interceptor?
That being said its not easy to shut down an opponants force. Each enemy will take a different tact but overall that same ability to shut down the enemy is Tau's strongest weapon and thats one of the reasons people play them. The same reason people play IG to completly overwhelm the enemy which can make opponants feel just as helpless as being shut down by a good Tau player.
You clearly have no idea what he was talking about.
If I get completely overwhelmed, that means I get to swing my swords and slash down 20 men before another 40 overwhelm me. That's fun! I don't even care if I lose 9 times out of 10 if I get to be overwhelmed.
With Tau, it's just frustrating. Moving units around and seeing them dwindle down to 0 before they can do anything is not fun. You feel free to play your little shut down game on your own.
It's funny how you mention that you can shut them down completely while taking minimal casualties 4 times out of 5, and then the fifth you don't even go "but then the 5th I lose!" but you go more like "but the 5th is actually hard to win!" and you STILL think you have to be a good Tau player to shut people down with them. Not if you run your gunlines you don't. Stand and roll your dice. That's all the skill there is to it.
gossipmeng wrote: I found my most successful opponents simply said "screw it" and rushed my lines. It is better to take one harsh turn of shooting and overwatch then to spread it out over 3 turns.
As far as I have found, that is not just the *best* tactic against tau, it's the *only viable tactic* against Tau. They will be able to fire at you, no matter how hard you try, so you might aswell see how far up the battlefield you can get.
This is why dropping in to them is so dangerous. Didn't get everything out in the same round? Congrats, the rest will be dropping into a cleaned out battlefield. All your friends are dead.
Problem is, they have enough firepower to take everything out. The best tactic is to rush headlong into the barrels of some of the best firearms that a unit can have en masse in the game. You can probably hear how wrong that sounds.
mixer86 wrote: May have already been asked in one of the long replies but how are you one shotting 600 points of crons?
i was under the impression if the flyer is detroyed the unit "in it" go into reserve don't they? they don't just die when the flyer does do they?
Aye, the necron FAQ put the transported unit on a Night Scythe straight into reserves, don't pass Crash and Burn. But they're now walking on from the necron table edge and most likely useless for a couple of turns. But the comment could have been about something else, or from someone who hasn't read the new FAQ and habitually loses full Courts with Overlords to Interceptor?
True.
my simple response to an Aircron player moaning about his 6 of more flyers being dominated by Tau would have to be:
"Cry me a river D$%k face!"
You wanna take a douche aircron list instead of taking a balanced army then your problem.
Don't get me wrong i'm not having a pop but i can't stand people who whinge and moan that the dominance they used to enjoy has been overtaken or mitigated by another new dex.
gossipmeng wrote: I found my most successful opponents simply said "screw it" and rushed my lines. It is better to take one harsh turn of shooting and overwatch then to spread it out over 3 turns.
Hah... this is exactly why my SoB have a chance against Tau. I know T3 troops will die in appalling numbers even if they have a nice 3+ save so better spend them on getting close enough to kill something. And the Exorcists targetting suits first need to be dealt with too. Ofc I have no desire for CC unless I can charge a mostly intact squad into a lone FW squad. Ignore minor losses, ignore Tau flyers, ignore Tau suits until I've killed all scoring units. Heavy Flamers do horrible stuff to them. Then just try to keep even one of my sisters alive so she can take an objective.
edit: this is also the only viable tactic with SoB, period. Spend them to get a good firing lane, then kill everything you see. If you don't you have a pack of CC specialists in your face and die.
mixer86 wrote: May have already been asked in one of the long replies but how are you one shotting 600 points of crons?
i was under the impression if the flyer is detroyed the unit "in it" go into reserve don't they? they don't just die when the flyer does do they?
Aye, the necron FAQ put the transported unit on a Night Scythe straight into reserves, don't pass Crash and Burn. But they're now walking on from the necron table edge and most likely useless for a couple of turns. But the comment could have been about something else, or from someone who hasn't read the new FAQ and habitually loses full Courts with Overlords to Interceptor?
True.
my simple response to an Aircron player moaning about his 6 of more flyers being dominated by Tau would have to be:
"Cry me a river D$%k face!"
You wanna take a douche aircron list instead of taking a balanced army then your problem.
Don't get me wrong i'm not having a pop but i can't stand people who whinge and moan that the dominance they used to enjoy has been overtaken or mitigated by another new dex.
Its called tactics. makes the game more fun.
Yeah, I'm a necron player, and even I don't like the aircron list.
Because it's easier for your opponent to bitch about your codex than internalize & realize he needs to perform better. I will admit there are a few exceptions such as Cronair, older codexes that don't have access to skyfire will really struggle against it. Notably Dark Eldar, unless they buy the defense line the only challenge they have is their own flyers which once shot down leaves them wide open.
Also the "Model is not WYSWIG" I have found to be an irrelevant argument. I will make all my models 100% WYSWIG when GW provides me with 100% of the bits I need to do it in every kit. I don't feel I should have to pay extra for bits that should be included in the kit.
-Loki- wrote: Just a question - why do you even care?
If your friend is doing it, throw some crap back on his army. He's playing Eldar, he's got the newest codex and plenty of new stuff for you to sling back. Just friendly sledging during a game.
If people you don't know playing another game are doing it, simply ignore them. It's not worth even noting what random neckbeards at your FLGS think if they're people you never interact with anyway.
Caring about what random grognards have to say is a surefire way to get annoyed with the overall hobby.
1: I hate being told the same thing over and over again.
2: I hate being made to feel bad for the army i play
3: These are regular clubbers who i have to deal with every week, I wish they wouldnt tell the new guys "Tau is evil"
This all seems a lot like what drove me away from my old FLGS back in 5th. I got sick of the basement dwellers just walking up to me in the middle of a game to tell me my army was gak, then bitch and moan about how I was cheating with JSJ when I kicked their asses or when I just Castled up in a corner and shot them.
Right now, since the only friends I had at that Store now play PP games or they moved out of state, I've been trying to start a new group locally( oh and to go to that store, I had to drive an hour) and, while now I have to help the new store owner with the "get people interested so GW will sell to me" bit and quite frankly I'm pretty lazy and it's more work than I want to do,the owner's a friend of mine and the 4-5 new guys looking into the game are really enjoying it.
Story time is over. The main reason you find the hate is because a large portion of people, normal people and basement dwellers alike, hate Tau. They don't fit into what they think is 40k.
The only difference is the basement dwellers do not understand how to socialize with people, and while they think they are being funny, by telling you your army is gak(Tau players from 5th-new book) or telling you your army is broken and just talk gak to you all evening.
So I impart you with the knowledge of my Elders, Tell them to feth off, ignore them, or look for a new place to hang out. No matter what anyone else has said about "oh just wait it out, it'll stop". It won't Because people do not like Tau. Space Marines could get 2+ armor, T5, and 3+ FNP on all Marines and the unsavory part of the playerbase would just bitch about your Plasma Guns.
The problem with Tau is they have so many tools wrapped into the same platform. Most armies dont have a single instance of the abilities that tau can spam. Ignore cover, ignore LOS, ignore night fighting, ignore blind, ignore low BS problems, ect. They have all these tools wrapped into just a few units. Things like marker drone units+ drone controller commander w iridium are INCREDIBLY cheap, incredibly durable, and 6+ marker lights firing at BS5 is incredibly reliable. You can pretty much single out one unit on the board to die, no matter what your opponent says.
The only save that is at all useful vs tau is an inv. However, fewer and fewer armies have good inv saves. Especially on troops. Last game i played vs tau i lost almost all of my troops in one turn vs two ion riptides and markers. No matter where i hid my units the tau player could out-range, outmaneuver, or simply ignore my ability to hide units, even when i was playing mech eldar. Ended up losing primary victory condition due to him just targeting the vehicle my last jetbike was hiding behind with a blast and letting that do the work.
Their one weakness is lack of melee. However, very, very few tourney armies have anything melee anyways. Melee is largely dead. The only things that had survived 6th edition were cover-based deathstars like beast pack or harlequin star, are countered and nerfed to hell respectively. Then they have one of, if not the best ally selection due to eldar BB. They are one of the easiest armies to cover all their own bases in one army. There isnt too much besides maybe russ gunline guard or wraith spam that can do much to tau, but even then they have a decent chance depending on how play decisions.
Wraith-spam doesn't do it, they'll kill almost all of them before they get there, then kill the rest with supporting fire.
Your troops shouldnt be getting knocked out that easily by IonTides. Do you not space your models properly? Max 2" coherency in a good formation and he can only hit ~4 models.
max spacing is nice, but mech eldar takes up a lot of space already. Spacing out models when you have 3-6 vehicles already crowding your deployment is nearly impossible. Also, wrecked/exploded vehicles dont give much of a chance to space models out. He just kept nova charging and firing at troops, not caring if it scattered onto vehicles because he could damage those also. Eventually won only 2ndary because i took out his marker lights and my mantle autarch took out 3 fire warrior squads alone. However, i could not have played that game much differently to improve what happened. Only thing diffirent was maybe one of his riptides going down earlier to the silly number of wounds i put on it after killing his troops, but that still wouldnt have changed much.
Purifier wrote: he always cracks out the "if you get into CC I'm screwed!"
More often than not in games against him I do not manage to get into a single close combat. What does it matter if you're weak in CC if you plow down everything I have trying to get there?
And even if you somehow survive against the gagillion things that make it so you'll never get into close combat, it's now no longer to say that tau are screwed once you get into CC.
Even ignoring the fact that 40k rewards the use of speedbumps, tau have the riptide now - something which I've seen take stuff down in close combat on more than one occasion.
Vineheart01 wrote:Tau are, as of right now, the only race that the average well-rounded list tends to counter the majority of FOTM lists going around.
And that might be fine, except that, as others have mentioned, what makes them good vs. certain cheese lists make them good against anything else. Yeah, they can pick apart a necron bakery, but those same things make it basically pointless to run a regular mech list. Good luck playing rhinos or chimeras when they have the ability to throw down those same units en masse when they're capable of flying. Plus, it really is pointless to play horde armies against them either.
I think what you're really looking for is something like dark eldar. splinter/blaster spam and poison can handle anything FotM at the moment, but at least most armies get to actually play a game against them.
Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:Personally as an Ork player I've put my Orks on Hiatus till our Codex creep
I'd highly disagree with the idea that tau power has to do with codex creep. Firstly, codex creep is only true if every codex is incrementally more powerful than the previous. Yes, we have tau the way we do, but we also have DA and CSM the way they are.
Secondly, I think this is idiosynchratic. You can have a couple of wins in a row before just coming out with a somewhat crummy codex, and that has nothing to do with creep. Furthermore, this problem we're talking about has existed since long before their current codex.
Messy0 wrote: thats why i love Tau. You really can shut down the enemy if everything goes right.
You love tau most when your opponents have the least fun? Or is it that winning is more important than having an enjoyable experience?
Because what I'm talking about isn't a matter of winning or losing. I've lost several games that I've enjoyed more than the wins I've had against tau. Getting shut down right away without getting to do anything doesn't sound like a game to me, as games require a bit of back and forth, and both players doing stuff. You having your way with someone while they don't have much option than to just sort of sit there and take it sounds more like bullying than playing.
They're just the most recent dex and some people haven't adjusted strategies and armies to combat it. There is always hate for the latest armies because they are OMFG SO OP for a few months until people learn how to play against them.
Gandohar wrote: They're just the most recent dex and some people haven't adjusted strategies and armies to combat it. There is always hate for the latest armies because they are OMFG SO OP for a few months until people learn how to play against them.
I have to mention, I do have a loathing against playing Tau, and me and Ailaros are pretty agreed on why this is. Not being allowed to actually play the game is just less fun than being stomped.
That said, I have never attempted to tell my friend to stop playing Tau or ever said I wouldn't play him. (I wouldn't play messy0, but that's because of his philosophy of how it's all a good thing.)
After a game, me and my friends grab a bite to eat and maybe play some Talisman or something else, while talking about the game, and while my Tau friend does enjoy slapping us around, we have serious discussions on how we could have done better and how we would ever be able to counter Tau, and he is as much a part of trying to help us counter them as anyone else.
When we talk after the game, we might aswell be talking about some other people's game. It's all very objective. We all try to think of different things and he throws in his expertise with the statlines and counter moves etc if the rest of us get anything wrong.
He'll never throw a game just because he won the previous few, but he's genuinly hoping we can find ways to counter him. And that part of it is fun.
If you can play with the right people, even playing against the most boring army to face has its silver lining.
I'm in your boat, even when people get steamrolled by my model spam tyranid list (sure you can kill fifty Gants, oh look here's fifty one more) where the entire board gets trampled underfoot by Tyranids large and small, they still had fun because they still probably killed dozens if not over a hundred of my models. With the Tau I can't hide behind cover because they ignore it, I can't assault because their overwatch means anything that tries dies. I can't win a shooting contest because they can shoot farther with higher strength shots with greater accuracy. I can't outmaneuver them because everything that wants to move either has a jet pack or is a skimmer. Nightfish? Oh look everything has blacksun filters nevermind. Deep strike? Eat interceptor shots Y'he scum! Flying circus? One skyfire shot sends my fliers crashing down.
Overall fighting the Tau is a soul draining experience.
Since 5th, my least favorite army to play against is IG. No one likes playing against giant blobs of troops, or a field full of AV12 tanks.
I'd much rather play vs a Tau player any day of the week.
Argument from incredulity, argument ad hominem, and argument ad populum, all in a few sentences. Wow.
That's about as silly as saying "Why would you want to be such an idiot by disagreeing with all the cool kids who agree that tau sucks".
I was being a bit funny, but I guess its hard to be sarcastic over the internets.
Anyway, I was not criticizing all your anti-Tau arguments, just pointing out that the "Tau are unfun to play vs" criticism is not a good one. IG function similarly to Tau, insofar as they both tend to be fairly static and shooting based. Riptides and Crisis suits are likely to be the only JSJ units you'll encounter. The HS options (Broadsides, Skyrays, Hammerheads) will most likely be standing still, just like the majority of other shooting units in the game.
"I've lost several games that I've enjoyed more than the wins I've had against tau. Getting shut down right away without getting to do anything doesn't sound like a game to me, as games require a bit of back and forth, and both players doing stuff. You having your way with someone while they don't have much option than to just sort of sit there and take it sounds more like bullying than playing."
This feeling can happen against any extreme list in any codex. Every codex can field a list that will make players feel as though they cannot do anything.
LValx wrote: This feeling can happen against any extreme list in any codex. Every codex can field a list that will make players feel as though they cannot do anything.
This kinda reminds me of when Necrons got updated in 5th.
They got a slew of great wargear that gave a ton of strange abilities and no one really knew what to do about it.
"all terrain is difficult, and all difficult terrain is dangerous, I can make night fighting during every one of your turns, I can start the game with nightfighting and hit all of your guys with lighting just because my HQ exists, I can steal your Beatstick HQ/MC and use him against you." So on and so forth.
I remember playing Necrons was pretty rough in the beginning. It still is, but that's more because of all their flyers and not the crazy wargear/abilities.
I'm in your boat, even when people get steamrolled by my model spam tyranid list (sure you can kill fifty Gants, oh look here's fifty one more) where the entire board gets trampled underfoot by Tyranids large and small, they still had fun because they still probably killed dozens if not over a hundred of my models. With the Tau I can't hide behind cover because they ignore it, I can't assault because their overwatch means anything that tries dies. I can't win a shooting contest because they can shoot farther with higher strength shots with greater accuracy. I can't outmaneuver them because everything that wants to move either has a jet pack or is a skimmer. Nightfish? Oh look everything has blacksun filters nevermind. Deep strike? Eat interceptor shots Y'he scum! Flying circus? One skyfire shot sends my fliers crashing down.
Overall fighting the Tau is a soul draining experience.
I'm in your boat, even when people get steamrolled by my model spam tyranid list (sure you can kill fifty Gants, oh look here's fifty one more) where the entire board gets trampled underfoot by Tyranids large and small, they still had fun because they still probably killed dozens if not over a hundred of my models. With the Tau I can't hide behind cover because they ignore it, I can't assault because their overwatch means anything that tries dies. I can't win a shooting contest because they can shoot farther with higher strength shots with greater accuracy. I can't outmaneuver them because everything that wants to move either has a jet pack or is a skimmer. Nightfish? Oh look everything has blacksun filters nevermind. Deep strike? Eat interceptor shots Y'he scum! Flying circus? One skyfire shot sends my fliers crashing down.
Overall fighting the Tau is a soul draining experience.
Tau was my first army back with the original "codex: Tau". I loved their fluff and loved their shooting, always thought close combat was silly in the future. It's kind of depressing actually, because I keep wishing my army was worse... at this point I can't actually get a game in because all the friends I usually play with don't want to play with me anymore.
I guess I'll go back to the old Tau empire codex from 4th edition. At least I'll be able to play then.
dementedwombat wrote: Tau was my first army back with the original "codex: Tau". I loved their fluff and loved their shooting, always thought close combat was silly in the future. It's kind of depressing actually, because I keep wishing my army was worse... at this point I can't actually get a game in because all the friends I usually play with don't want to play with me anymore.
I guess I'll go back to the old Tau empire codex from 4th edition. At least I'll be able to play then.
Try Vassal. There you don't need any friends!
Although entirely too many people recognize me on sight there.
Tau have too many gimmicks is the problem. mass skyfire? Ok. mass Interceptor? ok. Mass overwatch? Ok. Mass firepower? Ok.
Having all of the above? Not ok... Cover ignoring is one thing, and I used to hide out of LoS. That doesn't work anymore. I used to get the jump on his army by deepstriking mass units. Yeah nope.
BUT Tau are not the end all. They're possibly the best current army but not unbeatable. Tau still suffer from large blasts as they now need to bunch up in order to avoid assaults. As a matter of fact, I'm considering taking a Mawloc! Isn't that a shocker? But, gotta adapt to the changes.
dementedwombat wrote: Tau was my first army back with the original "codex: Tau". I loved their fluff and loved their shooting, always thought close combat was silly in the future. It's kind of depressing actually, because I keep wishing my army was worse... at this point I can't actually get a game in because all the friends I usually play with don't want to play with me anymore.
I guess I'll go back to the old Tau empire codex from 4th edition. At least I'll be able to play then.
Try Vassal. There you don't need any friends!
Although entirely too many people recognize me on sight there.
dementedwombat wrote: Tau was my first army back with the original "codex: Tau". I loved their fluff and loved their shooting, always thought close combat was silly in the future. It's kind of depressing actually, because I keep wishing my army was worse... at this point I can't actually get a game in because all the friends I usually play with don't want to play with me anymore.
I guess I'll go back to the old Tau empire codex from 4th edition. At least I'll be able to play then.
Try Vassal. There you don't need any friends!
Although entirely too many people recognize me on sight there.
I use vassal!
The dice algorithms hate me
I've never rolled better than a four for initiative.
hotsauceman1 wrote: S, In my game tonight i was playing tau v. eldar i kept hearing tau hate. Like how i can ignore cover, how i dont have the things modeled on, I do BTW, but certain things like EWO or MSS or Command and control node don't have official war gear. The guy was nice and a little frustrated but he is a good friend so i gave him a break. But still the table behind me(Necron v Eldar) I kept hearing tau trash, how we rendered his flyers obsolete, how we killed 600pts in one shot and so forth.
Why do i keep encountering Tau hate, but not DA hate, or deamon hate, or eldar hate?
It's that evil combo of new book syndrome (Cool units that suffer both power creep and lack of player comprehension as to there weaknesses) and many tau units having the hard counter to a fair few of the more traditional power gaming armies.
And If there is one thing years of wargaming has taught me, nobody is a worse loser than a power gamer.
- 90% of Tau units are BS3 and BS2
- The main way to increase BS and remove cover is to use markerlights (pathfinders & drones who themselves are BS3 and BS2)
A few arguments I'm reading are making it sound like Tau can remove all your cover and shoot at BS 4/5 every turn. This isn't likely unless the dice are very one sided OR your Tau opponent is spamming markerlights everywhere - in which case there are less damage dealing weapons.
mass av13
mass flyers with almost no drawbacks
mass high straight weapons
mass free glancing weapons
mass better than FNP res protocol
Honestly a lot of the complaints that i hear make no sense and i think people are ether getting cheated or just not paying attention.
You cant ignore Line of sight en mass unless you take a ton of smart missile systems which are still only s5a5 and only at 30" pretty much only on vehicles which for whatever reason some people think are bad now due to our loss of vehicle multi trackers
Seeker missiles still require another squad to lase the target to shoot them off for ignore cover/los
our rail guns got mostly neutered to st 8, so av 14 pretty much wrecks us unless we commit suicide melta units. (as with most other armies)
our access to interceptor Though great still have that draw back of a turn and a half of no shooting. which is usually on guns that you want shooting the whole game.
Shas'O Dorian wrote: Because it's easier for your opponent to bitch about your codex than internalize & realize he needs to perform better. I will admit there are a few exceptions such as Cronair, older codexes that don't have access to skyfire will really struggle against it. Notably Dark Eldar, unless they buy the defense line the only challenge they have is their own flyers which once shot down leaves them wide open.
Also the "Model is not WYSWIG" I have found to be an irrelevant argument. I will make all my models 100% WYSWIG when GW provides me with 100% of the bits I need to do it in every kit. I don't feel I should have to pay extra for bits that should be included in the kit.
Surely WYSWYG is not the point, as all wargear taken would be on your army list for your opponent to look at prior to the battle so that excuse don't fly with me.
As you say GW don't always provide all the bitz for identifying wargear. great example being iridium armour upgrade. based on WYSWYG i should kit bash the new commander model to signify this and probably make the model look worse?
gossipmeng wrote: ...OR your Tau opponent is spamming markerlights everywhere
A Tau army with less than 15 markerlights is in fact an Imperial Guard army in disguise and not a Tau army . I usually bring ~25 to feel really Tau.
Also, I think the main problem with Tau is that it can hard-counter the 6th edition meta very well: it can kill masses of infantry models, it can wreck flyers, it can negate cover (say goodbye to your ADL) and it can play the gunline like no other army.
To bring in another game the tau to me feel like a hard counter blue control deck from Magic. Yes the game sucks when you cannot do anything( and i hate blue counter decks with a passion) but can be beaten by brining more threats than they can deal with. All it is is target saturation. If I do not deal with this now it will wreck me all the while your hitting the other flank with more heavy hitters.
I think if the gave melee cored teams the ability to assault out of deep strike and infiltration will even things out and have the Tau crying once again about how their codex is not powerful enough.
For orks this would be Rocks/drop pods, space marines should get cheaper Vanguard with a Captain that also has the abitliy.
.
I use to have a Tau army but I got so much hate for them that I sold them cause it took the fun out of playing. Although these same people do not mind playing my Ork army who usually found themselves with no way to destroy a two land raiders or have any anti-psycher capabilities. Most armys have crazy cheese to them, except orks because there random and i play them. Nobody complains how an assault land raider which is suppose to be huge can go flat-out 12 inch and assault with 14 all around armour while my trukks at max can only go 13 with red paint and assulte even though their considered fast vehicles and have paper armor
Mojo1jojo wrote: I think if the gave melee cored teams the ability to assault out of deep strike and infiltration.
But then you'd have the old problem of melee armies getting to one unit unchallenged and slaughtering the rest from there. Back in 4th there were armies that never took a shot before they had slaughtered all you had. Sure, no Overwatch but they also had Consolidate into the next CC. Not wishing for a return to that crap.
Because Tau is a horrid army, and anyone playing are in most cases around where I dwell utter nutcases who drones on and on about their army having this and having that. And never seems to grasp the fact that everybody else dont really care for our anime styled child army
Mojo1jojo wrote: I think if the gave melee cored teams the ability to assault out of deep strike and infiltration will even things out and have the Tau crying once again about how their codex is not powerful enough.
Yeah, because Tau is completely devoid of Interceptor weapons and has terrible Overwatch capabilities . So yeah, unless you have no-scatter DS-ing melee units who can consolidate from combat to combat and are super resilient (and can negate random charge length), the Tau will be fine. If you had these units, the Tau would be screwed, but the other armies too (especially the IG).
Mojo1jojo wrote: I think if the gave melee cored teams the ability to assault out of deep strike and infiltration.
But then you'd have the old problem of melee armies getting to one unit unchallenged and slaughtering the rest from there. Back in 4th there were armies that never took a shot before they had slaughtered all you had. Sure, no Overwatch but they also had Consolidate into the next CC. Not wishing for a return to that crap.
Im not saying all deep strike unites like the old codex but an elect few like kommandos and Vanguard. With this you could hold them in reserve until a sweet spot opens up, keeping your opponent on their feet. Also you have to remember that your deep striking team can scatter and not make assault distance, and when your playing the Tau those unites are on a suicide run cause there gonna be dead next turn no matter what. But overall they would give you good options for distraction and actually make the Tau player do more then turtling.
Tau is a pretty ungratifying army to play against. Their turns take too long (though that could be my experience) and they are as much of a boring "point and click" army as IG are.
Combine that with the hatefest that the newest codex always gets, and it's no surprise you see what you do.
LValx wrote: This feeling can happen against any extreme list in any codex. Every codex can field a list that will make players feel as though they cannot do anything.
No. They can't.
I disagree.
Nids can do it with tons of psychic buffs and a mass amount of bodies and troops.
IG can do it by bringing 10+ AV12 Hulls.
Played Mechdar yet?
triple Heldrakes!
Seer council with psychic support.
Invisible or Fortuned Beastpack
Paladins. Or Triple teleporting DK.
Massed Flyer Necrons, or 18 Wraith Necrons.
200+ Orks, or 5 Battlewagons.
2++ rerollable Screamers for Daemons.
Triple LR Dakka Banner DA and Ravenwing with bolter banner.
So the only armies that really don't seem to have an extreme build are SoB and BT. I'd argue that every other codex can field some very, very dangerous and extreme combos that will leave plenty opponents feeling helpless.
Automatically Appended Next Post: 6th has allowed so many extreme combinations that even "lesser" codices can field some ridiculous lists. It makes it much more difficult to build a balanced list b ecause the number of different things you have to deal with has increased so much.
tanuvein wrote: What's the Dark Eldar list that prevents others from doing anything?
Invisible Beastpacks will roll players who dont have ignores cover shooting or templates (pretty much all SM variants, Orks, Nids). Now that Fortune can be cast on DE units, you could also Fortune a beastpack put Baron up front to tank with his 2++ for as long as possible, then get into combat and beat face.
DE/Eldar deathstar combinations can leave opposing players feeling very, very helpless. They are not fun at all to play against. Thankfully they generally are a bit luck reliant due to needing the correct psychic powers. Read some of JY2's batreps if you are interested. My blog-mate also was playing the old Eldar seer council with invisibility and fortune and it was extremely hard on most opponents.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And none of those lists were posted as lists that can force ALL opponents to do nothing.
The idea is that each of those lists is extreme enough to make a good amount of opponents feel helpless.
I.e., Marine player who plays vs. Triple Drakes. Very easy to feel helpless in that situation.
Or Nids vs Venom spam DE. Good luck.
Foot Orks vs. Mech guard with triple Manticores.
Lots of examples where some armies just cannot handle other armies and will therefore end up feeling a bit helpless.
Are people really crying this much about SMS(among other things of course but really? SMS?) Your getting shot at by less than 4 FW in terms of strength. It just seems a silly thing to complain about, i'd be more upset with hive guard personally lol
Seeing a lot of Tau gunlines? Start taking artillery units!! Pretty sure just about every army has some form of them(and for the ones that dont everyone seems to love taking IG allies). Its not like they are wasted against non gunlines as they will still do damage but if you are having a hard time with something bunched up in a corner then eliminate that corner with the one thing designed for it. Force your tau enemy to move around and be uncomfortable on the battlefield!
Though, I play tau, and im not a fan so much of the static gunline, i refuse to ever take an ADL or a bastion, and i love my stealthsuits! Ive havent had a blow out of a game yet!
Automatically Appended Next Post: I also dont try to 'deny' your army when i play, I simply try to swoop in and murder your face! Im always trying to table someone rather than hide on an objective and sit and wait for my opponent to come to me, like many have said, its boring!
LValx wrote: This feeling can happen against any extreme list in any codex. Every codex can field a list that will make players feel as though they cannot do anything.
No. They can't.
I disagree.
Nids can do it with tons of psychic buffs and a mass amount of bodies and troops.
IG can do it by bringing 10+ AV12 Hulls.
Played Mechdar yet?
triple Heldrakes!
Seer council with psychic support.
Invisible or Fortuned Beastpack
Paladins. Or Triple teleporting DK.
Massed Flyer Necrons, or 18 Wraith Necrons.
200+ Orks, or 5 Battlewagons.
2++ rerollable Screamers for Daemons.
Triple LR Dakka Banner DA and Ravenwing with bolter banner.
So the only armies that really don't seem to have an extreme build are SoB and BT. I'd argue that every other codex can field some very, very dangerous and extreme combos that will leave plenty opponents feeling helpless.
Automatically Appended Next Post: 6th has allowed so many extreme combinations that even "lesser" codices can field some ridiculous lists. It makes it much more difficult to build a balanced list b ecause the number of different things you have to deal with has increased so much.
I disagree with your disagreeal
I played a guy that goes all out to find the cheesiest nid lists he can to secure wins. His list had everything you mention. I got to fight him and show him that mass nids trampling down on a small Paladin squad only looks cool until the paladins have shown why they are the god damn chosen. I lost, but it was a fun game. Lots of nid genocide before they took me down.
Lots of people can glance out AV12. I sure can on GK. If I can pop half of them before they kill me, we've had a good game!
No, I haven't played mechdar. I doubt they can shoot me out/table me before one of my units can get into combat or even in a decent firing position though.
Hooray for helldrakes! Atleast I get to fight the rest of your army as they fly over head!
Seer council with psychic support is broken good!.. BUT IT'S NOT THE WHOLE ARMY! They wreak havoc, but I get to fight.
Do you know what those beastpacks do? They come to me and fight me! Ok, so missing them isn't that fun, but I can do the same back at them for giggles.
Yeah, tripple teleports are awesome. They are, however, at the end of the day, almost only space marines though, and at a cost. You can fight them, they will just decide where you fight.
Yep, all flyer necron squad. I'll give you that one. But I don't see how "Tau are like the cheesiest way of playing necron!" is a feather in their hat.
200 orks in wagons, man I've never had so much fun getting trampled.
Screamers are the whole army then? No.
... Really? DA? Is ANYONE actually scarred by anything they can field?
So that's it. I disagree with all but one of your statements.
But I know why. You have been reading this, no matter how many times I have said that wasn't it, as whine against a powerful army. So you bring up a bunch of powerful things from other armies.
Because you completely ignore what you don't want to read.
Look, it's not that they are powerful. I have nothing against getting destroyed. I have nothing against an army being more powerful than mine. Hell, I'm changing to SoB from GK. You think I CARE if my army is on par with the rest?
Tau are terrible to face because they completely shut you down with just about any build they bring. Because they only really have two types of build. Either you field a gunline, or you field troops that can shoot and get out of the way. And in the end, those are the same bloody thing. The end result is that you run around trying to get to them in some stupid attempt to reenact Benny Hill, while accomplishing nothing.
I leave games against Tau feeling like I just set up my guys and let the Tau player roll a bunch of dice. The End.
No other army, with the possible exception of Necron Flyer lists which makes me feel like I'm Mr Miyagi in that scene from karate kid trying to catch a fly with chopsticks, has ever made me feel like the game was so utterly useless.
Well... SMS are a bit broken. They dont need LOS and fully ignore cover. HG don't ignore cover fully, just intervening. Pretty substantial difference.
Combine that with the fact that Tau can field SMSs in a variety of slots and you have a problem, especially for Xenos players.
Consider this:
3x Riptide with HBC/SMS 3x3 Broadsides with HYMP/SMS
Thats a possible 60 SMS shots (assuming all Riptides are able to charge theirs). That is actually quite absurd. Especially late in the game when you are trying to stay alive.
I'm not advocating taking that build, but i'm sure someone has fielded it, or others will in the future.
LValx wrote: This feeling can happen against any extreme list in any codex. Every codex can field a list that will make players feel as though they cannot do anything.
No. They can't.
I disagree.
Nids can do it with tons of psychic buffs and a mass amount of bodies and troops.
IG can do it by bringing 10+ AV12 Hulls.
Played Mechdar yet?
triple Heldrakes!
Seer council with psychic support.
Invisible or Fortuned Beastpack
Paladins. Or Triple teleporting DK.
Massed Flyer Necrons, or 18 Wraith Necrons.
200+ Orks, or 5 Battlewagons.
2++ rerollable Screamers for Daemons.
Triple LR Dakka Banner DA and Ravenwing with bolter banner.
So the only armies that really don't seem to have an extreme build are SoB and BT. I'd argue that every other codex can field some very, very dangerous and extreme combos that will leave plenty opponents feeling helpless.
Automatically Appended Next Post: 6th has allowed so many extreme combinations that even "lesser" codices can field some ridiculous lists. It makes it much more difficult to build a balanced list b ecause the number of different things you have to deal with has increased so much.
I disagree with your disagreeal
I played a guy that goes all out to find the cheesiest nid lists he can to secure wins. His list had everything you mention. I got to fight him and show him that mass nids trampling down on a small Paladin squad only looks cool until the paladins have shown why they are the god damn chosen. I lost, but it was a fun game. Lots of nid genocide before they took me down.
Lots of people can glance out AV12. I sure can on GK. If I can pop half of them before they kill me, we've had a good game!
No, I haven't played mechdar. I doubt they can shoot me out/table me before one of my units can get into combat or even in a decent firing position though.
Hooray for helldrakes! Atleast I get to fight the rest of your army as they fly over head!
Seer council with psychic support is broken good!.. BUT IT'S NOT THE WHOLE ARMY! They wreak havoc, but I get to fight.
Do you know what those beastpacks do? They come to me and fight me! Ok, so missing them isn't that fun, but I can do the same back at them for giggles.
Yeah, tripple teleports are awesome. They are, however, at the end of the day, almost only space marines though, and at a cost. You can fight them, they will just decide where you fight.
Yep, all flyer necron squad. I'll give you that one. But I don't see how "Tau are like the cheesiest way of playing necron!" is a feather in their hat.
200 orks in wagons, man I've never had so much fun getting trampled.
Screamers are the whole army then? No.
... Really? DA? Is ANYONE actually scarred by anything they can field?
So that's it. I disagree with all but one of your statements.
But I know why. You have been reading this, no matter how many times I have said that wasn't it, as whine against a powerful army. So you bring up a bunch of powerful things from other armies.
Because you completely ignore what you don't want to read.
Look, it's not that they are powerful. I have nothing against getting destroyed. I have nothing against an army being more powerful than mine. Hell, I'm changing to SoB from GK. You think I CARE if my army is on par with the rest?
Tau are terrible to face because they completely shut you down with just about any build they bring. Because they only really have two types of build. Either you field a gunline, or you field troops that can shoot and get out of the way. And in the end, those are the same bloody thing. The end result is that you run around trying to get to them in some stupid attempt to reenact Benny Hill, while accomplishing nothing.
I leave games against Tau feeling like I just set up my guys and let the Tau player roll a bunch of dice. The End.
No other army, with the possible exception of Necron Flyer lists which makes me feel like I'm Mr Miyagi in that scene from karate kid trying to catch a fly with chopsticks, has ever made me feel like the game was so utterly useless.
So: I disagree with almost everything you said.
You missed my point.
My only point was that almost every army can field a list that will leave at least some possible opponents feeling helpless.
I'm not saying that Nids, or DE, or Eldar make everyone feel helpless. But certain armies they do. Orks can do almost nothing to Serpents, Nids as well, etc.
Not everyone is helpless against Tau.
IG Artillery can do a number on them. Jaws of the World Wolf is a huge PITA for Tau to deal with, especially if the rest of the list is well formulated. Tau Gunlines will have a hard time dealing with things like 2++ Rerollable Screamers of Tzeentch or Fortuned Councils/Beastpacks. They'll also have a difficult time with FMC lists that get lucky and roll lots of Iron Arms or good gifts. Even Nids can mess up gunline Tau (I know because I play them), if you get the correct powers.
Automatically Appended Next Post: In sum: Tau are very, very good. And very, very difficult to beat if built properly. You will have to adapt to beat them.
I would assume it's people just don't enjoy playing against gunlines in general, particularly against one that can handle the strategies commonly used against gunlines (deep striking, hugging cover, etc)
It's not very gratifying to march across the board removing your casualties without much recourse.
BrotherChaplinMalus wrote: To bring in another game the tau to me feel like a hard counter blue control deck from Magic. Yes the game sucks when you cannot do anything( and i hate blue counter decks with a passion) but can be beaten by brining more threats than they can deal with. All it is is target saturation. If I do not deal with this now it will wreck me all the while your hitting the other flank with more heavy hitters.
What a coincidence, if I played magic I'd run blue/black infect with control.
A lot of the Tau lists I see here on Dakka would probably have a difficult time beating 60 Hounds. Or 5 Battlewagons. Or 3 LRs with the right contents.
LValx wrote:I was being a bit funny, but I guess its hard to be sarcastic over the internets.
Sorry, my bad.
LValx wrote:Anyway, I was not criticizing all your anti-Tau arguments, just pointing out that the "Tau are unfun to play vs" criticism is not a good one. IG function similarly to Tau, insofar as they both tend to be fairly static and shooting based.
Actually, I'd take that the other way around. The existence of guard gunlines doesn't make tau fun to play against. The existence of guard being able to play like tau means you can build a guard army that's un-fun to play against.
Moreover, and I guess time will tell on this one, but I question whether it's actually possible to do with the tau codex. I mean, I did well enough over the last year, and I didn't use a single manticore or vendetta or FW unit. In several different play styles. For tau players, at least in my area, the people all started with gunlines, spent a game or two trying something different like farsight bomb, only to see their armies fall flat on their faces and rush back immediately to running gunlines again.
LValx wrote:Thats a possible 60 SMS shots (assuming all Riptides are able to charge theirs). That is actually quite absurd. Especially late in the game when you are trying to stay alive.
Or killing stuff late game. As best I can recall, there are zero weapons in the game that can target a single model hiding near an objective out of LOS and not on the top level of a ruin. Well, except SMS...
I've seen more than one game be decided by a game of "hide the guardsman" where the only way of handling it is with good mobility and smart force concentration. Any shooting answer was likely going to be artillery, which crashes into the top floors of stuff. In the case of SMS, what you do in the movement phase literally doesn't matter, the tau player just gets to roll dice and your models are gone.
daedalus wrote: Their turns take too long (though that could be my experience)
Strange Its usually the opposite for me.
not as fast as grey knights but must faster than most other armies. Usually 15 min per player turn when i play. but maybe i just play faster then most.
LValx wrote: A lot of the Tau lists I see here on Dakka would probably have a difficult time beating 60 Hounds. Or 5 Battlewagons. Or 3 LRs with the right contents.
But they'd be gunning as they went down.
It's one thing to "feel helpless" and another entirely to not get to play the game.
I feel it's a whole army that is akin to some things I have seen in very very small doses. And it's too bad, because it's a cool army with a lot of neat tricks, but they were made into a gunline that you cannot sneak up on.
One example of the small doses that springs to mind is Dante's mask (I think it's Dante that has it, right? I may be mixing up BA special characters.) It straight up wounds your biggest enemy and lowers some stats for him. Normally the enemy Warlord as I've experienced it.
My BA mate pulled that one. He goes "ok, game start. Your Warlord gets a wound and these three or four stats are lowered by one."
I'm like "woah, ok. That'll be an exciting dice throw!" "No, it just straight up happened. No dice." "Alright, what's the drawback?" "No drawback. It just happened because I bought a guy and then the game started and it happened."
WELL FANTASTIC! THAT'S A TON OF FUN! Why not just make another 2 of those items and we can start the game with my warlord dying! Awesome item!
I mean if it had been a mark and then if he gets into CC with Dante then it happens, I'd be like "woooah, that makes my tactics change since I'm gonna be little more careful of getting close to Dante!" But no. It doesn't add anything. it just wounds me.
I always have to wonder if things like that were invented by Matt Ward. It just smacks of his way of thinking. He is very one dimensional.
But I digress by a lot. It makes me pissed in the same way, but it's not exactly the same thing. The problem with Tau, as I see it, is they covered their weaknesses too well in the new codex, leaving none to attempt to exploit. (as long as they run gunlines)
daedalus wrote: Their turns take too long (though that could be my experience)
Strange Its usually the opposite for me.
not as fast as grey knights but must faster than most other armies. Usually 15 min per player turn when i play. but maybe i just play faster then most.
Well, like I said, it could just be my experience. Our Tau player is notorious for unintentional slowplyaing with his other armies as well. He has to analyze every possible option with every possible outcome for every possible unit. It got so bad that I bought a chess clock that I use on him.
A bad tactuical decision could totally cost you the game as Tau if its bad enough and you aren't running a gunline behind an aegis. I dont think they are very forgiving at all!
Wolfnid420 wrote: A bad tactuical decision could totally cost you the game as Tau if its bad enough and you aren't running a gunline behind an aegis. I dont think they are very forgiving at all!
Wolfnid420 wrote: A bad tactuical decision could totally cost you the game as Tau if its bad enough and you aren't running a gunline behind an aegis. I dont think they are very forgiving at all!
Sarcasm doesn't carry well on the internet, but this one CLEARLY must be sarcasm right?
"If I screw up bad enough, I could lose, potentially... except if I'm behind an eagis, then I can really put my pants on my head and blow the dice out of my nose."
That's how I read that sentence. If the only chance of losing is that you screw up bad enough, you know your army might be a little OTT.
But like I've said. It isn't even about losing and winning. It's about being allowed in the game as more than target practice dummies.
Its not really, thats kinda what im getting at. Though i do feel like most power armored armies can weather a mistake a lot easier than most xeno armies.
Wolfnid420 wrote: A bad tactuical decision could totally cost you the game as Tau if its bad enough and you aren't running a gunline behind an aegis. I dont think they are very forgiving at all!
Sarcasm doesn't carry well on the internet, but this one CLEARLY must be sarcasm right?
"If I screw up bad enough, I could lose, potentially... except if I'm behind an eagis, then I can really put my pants on my head and blow the dice out of my nose."
That's how I read that sentence. If the only chance of losing is that you screw up bad enough, you know your army might be a little OTT.
But like I've said. It isn't even about losing and winning. It's about being allowed in the game as more than target practice dummies.
I laughed soo hard at your response. I meant more like a single really bad decision could cost you and entire game. 1 unit being in the wrong place or being forced to flee could keep you from being able to win entirely!
Regarding the ADL, thats kinda how i feel about em, all these horror stories of charging Tau behind an ADL and just being massacred is kinda sad. I personally dont like them. Or riptides for that matter. but i think that any adl army is kind of silly because its very limiting and boring to play with and against. Yeah, Tau can delete the ADL but the troops that do it are sooo fragile. Prioritize them first and the entire army suffers greatly!! How many armies out there can be somewhat crippled by killing 1 or 2 units? No one complains about 6 or 12 guardsmen, and thats what they become without their lazer pointers of awesome lol
I just dont think people want to put enough effort into how to get past an ADL Tau player and would rather bitch about it. They dont want to dedicate enough drop troops or highAV or whatever think they need, and rather than try new things and adapt to a new meta they'd rather throw up their arms and claim defeat.
Mojo1jojo wrote: I think if the gave melee cored teams the ability to assault out of deep strike and infiltration.
But then you'd have the old problem of melee armies getting to one unit unchallenged and slaughtering the rest from there. Back in 4th there were armies that never took a shot before they had slaughtered all you had. Sure, no Overwatch but they also had Consolidate into the next CC. Not wishing for a return to that crap.
Yeah. Harlequins. I had an entire Ultramarine army completely destroyed by a single unit Harlequins by turn 3.
Wolfnid420 wrote: I just dont think people want to put enough effort into how to get past an ADL Tau player and would rather bitch about it. They dont want to dedicate enough drop troops or highAV or whatever think they need, and rather than try new things and adapt to a new meta they'd rather throw up their arms and claim defeat.
About as insulting as saying:
I just don't think people want to put enough effort into their games to actually have to think about strategy, they'd rather just bitch about how everyone else is just bad and should learn to play. They just don't want to bring in anything that might force them to think a little, they'd rather just throw up their arms and go "screw it, I'll just play Tau instead."
I've played quite a lot of games against Tau and I still cannot think of a reliable counter to an ADL gunline. I've played wildly varying armies with GK to try and counter it. I know what my friend is bringing, it's almost always the same. I have won once, but it was more because of random rolls than anything. And then I played SoB once and that one was fine because SoB has the numbers and the power armour to soak up wounds while marching on the Tau. SoB are, weirdly, probably my favourite choice to field against Tau. It's still not a clear counter though. SoB just evens it out a little.
hotsauceman1 wrote: S, In my game tonight i was playing tau v. eldar i kept hearing tau hate. Like how i can ignore cover, how i dont have the things modeled on, I do BTW, but certain things like EWO or MSS or Command and control node don't have official war gear. The guy was nice and a little frustrated but he is a good friend so i gave him a break. But still the table behind me(Necron v Eldar) I kept hearing tau trash, how we rendered his flyers obsolete, how we killed 600pts in one shot and so forth.
Why do i keep encountering Tau hate, but not DA hate, or deamon hate, or eldar hate?
Do you want an honest answer? Tau are the first OP 6th edition book.
They ignore so much of the games mechanics; taking away cover, overlapping overwatch, overwatch increased b.s. etc. And have some very powerful builds. In the hands of a good player, they are very nasty.
Personally, I don't complain. I think they should be good and they had that old crappy book for so long.
Regarding the ADL, thats kinda how i feel about em, all these horror stories of charging Tau behind an ADL and just being massacred is kinda sad. I personally dont like them. Or riptides for that matter. but i think that any adl army is kind of silly because its very limiting and boring to play with and against. Yeah, Tau can delete the ADL but the troops that do it are sooo fragile. Prioritize them first and the entire army suffers greatly!! How many armies out there can be somewhat crippled by killing 1 or 2 units? No one complains about 6 or 12 guardsmen, and thats what they become without their lazer pointers of awesome lol
I just dont think people want to put enough effort into how to get past an ADL Tau player and would rather bitch about it. They dont want to dedicate enough drop troops or highAV or whatever think they need, and rather than try new things and adapt to a new meta they'd rather throw up their arms and claim defeat.
I think you're minimizing the situation a bit too much. What you're saying also works good if you know you're playing your friend Bill who always plays Tau, but it becomes much harder in a tournament setting where you could wind up against anyone. Yes, people are being hyperbolic (as usual) however, the game eventually gets so diluted that you can't fit everything you need to be effective into a single list, essentially causing the game to turn into Rock Paper Scissors.
I mean, the checklist I usually go through when looking at the stuff I need to make sure a list has before I'll consider it is this:
anti-tank
anti-horde
anti-flyer
moble suckerpunch (droppods, strike squads, etc)
troops
protection (ADL or transports) if points allow
Granted, sometimes, those overlap, however, if I break that down evenly at 1500 points, then it gets pretty thin trying to cover all the bases. I'd have to make sure I had at least 250 points in each of those categories, which could be one single unit that fills a particular role.
Purifier wrote: And then I played SoB once and that one was fine because SoB has the numbers and the power armour to soak up wounds while marching on the Tau. SoB are, weirdly, probably my favourite choice to field against Tau. It's still not a clear counter though. SoB just evens it out a little.
And so say I - it's not a counter, it's just an army that has no incredible one-trick ponies or hugely expensive "I WIN" wargear that can get shut down by the Tau. They march on and make some nice fish and chips once they get close enough. Which they have to do against pretty much everyone with varying degrees of success, I might add. They can deal with a bit of Horde (tau troops), a bit of armor (tau suits) and a bit of real tanks (true AV14 bastards). They're not specialists, unless you count getting into range less than 12'' and shooting you dead dead dead a specialist trait.
The reason for tau hate is the fact that they are the best shooters in an edition that makes their main weakness (CC) difficult if not obsolete in SOME cases.
Another thing to consider is that not a single tau unit got worse. There are some that still aren't very good but EVERY UNIT got a buff. Compare this to other 6th edition codexes. Eldar lost runes of warding and choosable phychic powers. Chaos defilers are now overpriced and some of the chaos cult units got overpriced as well. The dark angels got a good update but still struggle with the fact that their bikes have become much harder to use thanks to heldrakes and have hardly any AP 2 CC weapons that aren't unwieldy. Chaos daemons got much more fragile. The fact of the matter is that tau really didn't get any nerfs at all and take advantage of every single main advantage to 6th edition (warlord traits, allies, shooting, night fighting, overwatch).
Now I'm not going to go out and say that they're cheesy but they definetly have some hard to with and borderline OP options. Farsight bomb is one example of this. I still agree to play against tau players and I don't think they should be called cheesy but I can see why there's frustration.
Another thing to consider is that not a single tau unit got worse.
Actually a lot of units got worse even if the codex as a whole got better. Broadsides lost their railguns and got the far inferior heavy railrifles and also lost access to the A.S.S. Kroot lost their extra attack in CC and str 4. The Tau vehicle armory was outright gutted, trading multitrackers, target locks and targeting arrays for rubbish upgrades like the advanced targeting system and counterfire defense system. Pathfinder armor was dropped to 5+. Shield drones no longer copy saves. There are a great deal of nerfs, many of them quite severe. But between all of the non-working and outright terrible options that were made functional, the suboptimal options that became considerably better, and the large range new wargear, rules and units that have become available it can be hard to notice. After all, Tau players are going to bring what turns out to be good (which is admittedly a lot in this codex) while avoiding the poor options, just like anyone else attempting to build an effective list.
Another thing to consider is that not a single tau unit got worse.
Actually a lot of units got worse even if the codex as a whole got better. Broadsides lost their railguns and got the far inferior heavy railrifles and also lost access to the A.S.S. Kroot lost their extra attack in CC and str 4. The Tau vehicle armory was outright gutted, trading multitrackers, target locks and targeting arrays for rubbish upgrades like the advanced targeting system and counterfire defense system. Pathfinder armor was dropped to 5+. Shield drones no longer copy saves. There are a great deal of nerfs, many of them quite severe. But between all of the non-working and outright terrible options that were made functional, the suboptimal options that became considerably better, and the large range new wargear, rules and units that have become available it can be hard to notice. After all, Tau players are going to bring what turns out to be good (which is admittedly a lot in this codex) while avoiding the poor options, just like anyone else attempting to build an effective list.
The broadsides may have lost S10 but they gained the ability to take sky fire or interceptor and also have the option to take a bunch of missiles. I would argue that the broadsides are now much more versatile now than they were before and kroot are now much cheaper and can take sniper rounds which are amazing for monstrous creatures. Though these units lost certain things, they got buffs that make up for it. The vehicle armory might not be as good as before, I think the vehicles themselves retained their usefulness and in many cases got cheaper.
But they have also lost the aforementioned options. No longer will Broadsides destroy landraiders in your DZ while hiding behind shield drones. Instead they will run HYMP in conjunction missile drones to hunt light vehicles or flyers. They still took a major hit, but most Tau players will simple eschew they now poor heavy rail rifle and shield drone options for superior options. It is not so much that the Tau didn't suffer nerfs as that the Tau players simply won't take the nerfed options. The only difference between Tau and other factions is that because the Tau units a often modular in design , this will often boil down to choices in equipment as opposed to choices in units.
I'll be completely honest, my absolute first impression when I first cracked the Tau codex was that the shield drones no longer taking their owner's armor save and the broadside railgun changes would actually make us less effective, and the loss of flechette launchers that wound everybody really hurt me at least (not to mention the fast vehicles).
Then I started to read some stuff and changed my mind. The nerfs are very small compared to the buffs, but they're still there.
That said, our codex still has a few lemons in it. Automated repair system on our vehicles anyone?
dementedwombat wrote: I'll be completely honest, my absolute first impression when I first cracked the Tau codex was that the shield drones no longer taking their owner's armor save and the broadside railgun changes would actually make us less effective, and the loss of flechette launchers that wound everybody really hurt me at least (not to mention the fast vehicles).
Then I started to read some stuff and changed my mind. The nerfs are very small compared to the buffs, but they're still there.
That said, our codex still has a few lemons in it. Automated repair system on our vehicles anyone?
Not an upgrade i'll ever take! The only nerf i really hate from our new codex is the way they screwed up the seekermissile mechanic! I should be able to call in a seeker using a ML as if it were a heavy weapon in my FW squad damnit!! lol
tanuvein wrote: :
And none of those lists were posted as lists that can force ALL opponents to do nothing.
The idea is that each of those lists is extreme enough to make a good amount of opponents feel helpless.
Lots of examples where some armies just cannot handle other armies and will therefore end up feeling a bit helpless.
But Tau does not even have try to make such imbalanced lists as in your examples because they always come in that way.
In our group we had a complete newbie who started with Tau. He tables most opponents without trouble, even when forgetting some important rules. 6th edition was made for Tau. As has been said, they have a counter for everything except melee, which they can avoid most of the time and Riptides can take out weaker targets.
Haters gonna hate. For some people, whatever they lose to becomes the most OP thing "ever". Don't let others' butthurt impact your hobby experience.
They will either adapt, and become better players as a result, or not. If not, you're left with the decision, "do I find a new group with more challenging opponents, or do I play with kids' gloves?"
Before the new Eldar codex dropped, I thought that the book was fine. My playstyle focused heavily on out maneuvering my opponent, and leveraging ranged fire power on weak points of the enemy with dakka serpents, dragons, etc, while dancing out of the way of enemy front line troops, it was tricky, and I almost always won on objectives. Then the new codex dropped, and basically took my playstyle and turbo charged it with the new bs4, laser lock, dirty cheap farseers, and battle focus. When I take out my new Eldar to the FLGS, its a blood bath for my opponents.
But I also understand that its not *fun* for my opponent when he watches his units flailing around trying to get a bead on the Eldar mobility while my new and improved shooting tears him apart. 40K is a game which requires 2 people, and both people need to have fun. Currently I feel like the new Eldar Codex, coupled with my current playstyle, is too powerful for the environement I play in, and I will reserve them for serious business.
On the other hand, I've come a long way as a player, I am comfortable with my list building skill, and tactics on the table, and I have several different armies to chose from and play. When I play casual games I will bring my Drakeless Slaanesh CSM, because I know that the list is solid, presents a real challenge for me to win with, and importantly I know that my opponent will probably have fun in the ensuing slug fest.
I don't resent my oppoents for not playing ultra competitive lists, nor do I encourage it because frankly ultra competive 6th edition is terrible and no fun for anybody. I want my opponents to have fun, and I respect that currently the Eldar are too powerful for that to really work for me. So I won't force people to battle my Space Elves, when I have other options.
Now the food for thought. The majority of people on Dakka and in gaming communities feel like Tau is significantly more powerful than Eldar.
I would finally like to touch on one point I brought up earlier. Begining players should still pick they army they like the best no matter what that army might be. Tau, CSM , whatever. a new player isn't a grizled 5+ year wargaming veteran who is comfortable with listbuilding, synergy, mathammer, and even able to anticipate powerful enemy combinations before facing them in battle. Skill and experience are still very important parts of 40K, far more important than army selection. All I am saying, is that if your army is too big of a fish for your local community during casual pick up games, maybe you should bring another fish.
EDIT: Also note that the above can apply to CSM with 2-3 Heldrakes, or Necrons with Wraith or Scythe Spam. Ultra competitive lists are fine, but if your opponents aren't into that scene, don't bring them! Maybe if your opponents have no fun playing against a riptide you could try playing without it... I dunno.
Haters gonna hate. For some people, whatever they lose to becomes the most OP thing "ever".
Sure and GK in last edition were just an ok codex and necrons are just ok now too. Please this has nothing to do with butthurt.
People say broadsides got nerfed ?they didn't interceptor and skyfire or being walking missle platforms made them better . Tau tank worse then before ? how many hammerheads did tau use before 6th ed , wasn't it one ? they use one now too , it costs more , but is a hell lot accurate .
Kroots no longer str 4 A2 ? Because melee is so op and important for tau and they dont have other faster tar pit units right ? And to make kroot worse in the dex , the new kroot sniper rifles help tau against +3sv MC . Not being able to kill LR ? Woe the poor tau , it is not like they run a fusion armed suit unit in every army or anything .
Haters gonna hate. For some people, whatever they lose to becomes the most OP thing "ever".
Sure and GK in last edition were just an ok codex and necrons are just ok now too. Please this has nothing to do with butthurt.
People say broadsides got nerfed ?they didn't interceptor and skyfire or being walking missle platforms made them better . Tau tank worse then before ? how many hammerheads did tau use before 6th ed , wasn't it one ? they use one now too , it costs more , but is a hell lot accurate .
Kroots no longer str 4 A2 ? Because melee is so op and important for tau and they dont have other faster tar pit units right ? And to make kroot worse in the dex , the new kroot sniper rifles help tau against +3sv MC . Not being able to kill LR ? Woe the poor tau , it is not like they run a fusion armed suit unit in every army or anything .
Never said they are "just OK". They are GOOD. No army is invincible and all armies have weaknesses. The internet cries for a month or so every time a new codex is released. The good players figure out ways of overcoming new meta-dominating builds. Whining accomplishes nothing.
tanuvein wrote: :
And none of those lists were posted as lists that can force ALL opponents to do nothing.
The idea is that each of those lists is extreme enough to make a good amount of opponents feel helpless.
Lots of examples where some armies just cannot handle other armies and will therefore end up feeling a bit helpless.
But Tau does not even have try to make such imbalanced lists as in your examples because they always come in that way.
In our group we had a complete newbie who started with Tau. He tables most opponents without trouble, even when forgetting some important rules. 6th edition was made for Tau. As has been said, they have a counter for everything except melee, which they can avoid most of the time and Riptides can take out weaker targets.
Yea? and I had such games when I was a newbie, with 5th edition tau, where they were made of distilled useless.
Against lousy players. anyone with half a brain mopped the floor with me till I got the ropes of it. some still do.
Tau got nothing overpowered, at all. we got some cool toys, some nice abilities, but not a single thing you can point out and say "this is too good"
Its not Tau's fault that half the players got dumbed down into playing one-trick-pony lists who have zero ability to adapt and try to get things done by brute force or by abusing holes in the metagame where there was simply no answer at all to their old tactics.
Show me ONE tau unit who is too powerful for it's cost and can be spammed. ONE.
Everything is either pricey, fragile, immobile or comes in tiny numbers, usually a combination of two.
Half the tau hate is because of things tau is blamed to have, that do not even exist!
No, there is no "mass interceptor skyfire"a riptide with both costs over 200 and a crisis with both got very little firepower, a broadside cant be both, nothing else can't have both. and guess what? skyfire is a 20 point upgrade, PER MODEL. cheap my ass, bringing more then 3 such models is shooting yourself in the leg.
No, there is no "everything ignores LoS and cover", there is only the SMS, an AP5 gun, most common units in the game won't even give a damn about ignoring cover, because the armor is better anyway.
Yes, you also got the seeker, but its a one-use item, and for it to ignore cover and LoS you need something to mark the target first, and that's not ignoring LoS.
No, there is no "entire army overwatch", only units within 6". freaking 6", its NOTHING. sure they can have just 1 model in range, but kill that damn 1 model that makes the chain, and the rest of his squad can't join overwatch. how godamn hard is it to kill 1 firewarrior?
They castle up and pack up so tightly? bring some freaking AOE guns and brake up the formation, that's what they are freaking FOR. and EVERY army has such guns! and guess what, most also got AP4 or better, AND ignore cover. they will MOW the fire warriors.
No leadership issues because of ethereal? you mean the guys who give extra killpoints and have effectifly no save? with mere T3?
Yea. if you can't kill these fragile guys, you are doing something wrong. its a multi-wound guardsmen in a squad of guardsman. just a squad, not a blob.
I will not claim that tau are a weak army, because they are not, not any more.
But get your act straight, tau have nothing that can't be dealt with, its just that the right tools are different, and the old meta got you to spam all the things that don't work well, and set aside all the things that brake tau down, you fail because the meta tools are directed against things tau don't have, and neglect the things Tau do have.
Sure, you bring alot of anti-MEQ, anti-TEQ and anti-horde, but tau does not fall under any of them. its a mid-point between horde and elite. bring the right freaking tools.
That's also why SoB is a hard match for tau, they naturally use things that are good against tau, because that's what they got. flamers, melta, heavy bolter.
Oh, look. EVERY imperial has it, they just don't pick it. they also got a huge variety of artillery pieces, all can blow up a tau gunline.
And outside IoM, except the codices who are outdated and don't function even when tau are removed from the equation, none lacks the tools to deal with tau.
Do I need to actually TELL people how to beat me now? because every time I see someone losing to me, or any other tau, and blames it on tau being overpowered, I usually also see an action he could do and missed that could turn the game, or his list was insultingly bad and not packing a single rational anti-tau unit.
And every time someone beats my tau, its not because I made any massive errors, its because he just brought a list that actually bothered bringing things that hurt me, and outplaying me from an equal standing. (or, if they use a more competitively optimized army then me, not slipping up when starting slightly above me.)
Its a well balanced codex, who is not above nor below the other 6th edition codices (bar a few units that just came out wrong. you know who I'm talking about.)
There is no way to make an all comers list better then the tau without creating bad matchs ups with other popular armies or having God blessed dice or playing necron. You would have to play big games , higher then 1500pts and have more LoS blocking terrain on tables , which almost never happens . You are right that there is no unbeatable armies , dice alone can make someone lose . But being bad in melee in an edition where tau can take ally and melee is nerved anyway seems like a realy weak weak side of a dex. The only thing a tau player has to learn , besides the normal aegis line formation , is how to set up against bale flamer armies . That is a rather low learning curve , which is by the way ok or would be ok , if the army wasn't so good. I didn't play the a lot in 5th ed , but I did see the advent of the paladin armies . Those weren't unbeatable too , but they did warp the eviroment a lot. They were borderline unfriendly to new players , removed many type of builds and forced people to rebuild their armies with "can I take out enough paladins fast" in mind . I would rather see 10 necron codex , then 1 tau one . And necron are technicly a worse match up for me then tau.
I'm not going to lie, I'm hating Tau with my Tyranid army at the moment. The skyray feths me over, firing 6 missiles at once turn 1 killing my 260pt flyrant straight away with a 130pt model.
With my swolves army seems fine though.
But I think the issue that OP has isn't balance or anything, it's that he's playing with whiners.
Yea? and I had such games when I was a newbie, with 5th edition tau, where they were made of distilled useless.
Against lousy players. anyone with half a brain mopped the floor with me till I got the ropes of it. some still do.
Tau got nothing overpowered, at all. we got some cool toys, some nice abilities, but not a single thing you can point out and say "this is too good"
Spoiler:
Its not Tau's fault that half the players got dumbed down into playing one-trick-pony lists who have zero ability to adapt and try to get things done by brute force or by abusing holes in the metagame where there was simply no answer at all to their old tactics.
Show me ONE tau unit who is too powerful for it's cost and can be spammed. ONE.
Everything is either pricey, fragile, immobile or comes in tiny numbers, usually a combination of two.
Half the tau hate is because of things tau is blamed to have, that do not even exist!
No, there is no "mass interceptor skyfire"a riptide with both costs over 200 and a crisis with both got very little firepower, a broadside cant be both, nothing else can't have both. and guess what? skyfire is a 20 point upgrade, PER MODEL. cheap my ass, bringing more then 3 such models is shooting yourself in the leg.
No, there is no "everything ignores LoS and cover", there is only the SMS, an AP5 gun, most common units in the game won't even give a damn about ignoring cover, because the armor is better anyway.
Yes, you also got the seeker, but its a one-use item, and for it to ignore cover and LoS you need something to mark the target first, and that's not ignoring LoS.
No, there is no "entire army overwatch", only units within 6". freaking 6", its NOTHING. sure they can have just 1 model in range, but kill that damn 1 model that makes the chain, and the rest of his squad can't join overwatch. how godamn hard is it to kill 1 firewarrior?
They castle up and pack up so tightly? bring some freaking AOE guns and brake up the formation, that's what they are freaking FOR. and EVERY army has such guns! and guess what, most also got AP4 or better, AND ignore cover. they will MOW the fire warriors.
No leadership issues because of ethereal? you mean the guys who give extra killpoints and have effectifly no save? with mere T3?
Yea. if you can't kill these fragile guys, you are doing something wrong. its a multi-wound guardsmen in a squad of guardsman. just a squad, not a blob.
I will not claim that tau are a weak army, because they are not, not any more.
But get your act straight, tau have nothing that can't be dealt with, its just that the right tools are different, and the old meta got you to spam all the things that don't work well, and set aside all the things that brake tau down, you fail because the meta tools are directed against things tau don't have, and neglect the things Tau do have.
Sure, you bring alot of anti-MEQ, anti-TEQ and anti-horde, but tau does not fall under any of them. its a mid-point between horde and elite. bring the right freaking tools.
That's also why SoB is a hard match for tau, they naturally use things that are good against tau, because that's what they got. flamers, melta, heavy bolter.
Oh, look. EVERY imperial has it, they just don't pick it. they also got a huge variety of artillery pieces, all can blow up a tau gunline.
And outside IoM, except the codices who are outdated and don't function even when tau are removed from the equation, none lacks the tools to deal with tau.
Do I need to actually TELL people how to beat me now? because every time I see someone losing to me, or any other tau, and blames it on tau being overpowered, I usually also see an action he could do and missed that could turn the game, or his list was insultingly bad and not packing a single rational anti-tau unit.
And every time someone beats my tau, its not because I made any massive errors, its because he just brought a list that actually bothered bringing things that hurt me, and outplaying me from an equal standing. (or, if they use a more competitively optimized army then me, not slipping up when starting slightly above me.)
Its a well balanced codex, who is not above nor below the other 6th edition codices (bar a few units that just came out wrong. you know who I'm talking about.)
+1 Exalted. I tried to say it, you did. Awesome post, excellent points /thread for Tau being OP
Not impressed. Arguments based on the idea that nobody brings Sv5+ models and that tau players can't figure out how to deploy units to take advantage of 6" overlapping overwatch, or that the definition of overpowered is "that unit you spam" isn't terribly convincing.
The arguments being made are assuming a brain-dead tau player with no player skill. Against anybody reasonably competent, they have the ability to shut down their opponent's ability to actually play the game while they're playing the game.
And that's what's important. It's not merely a matter of tau being a powerful army. It's they way they deploy their power that everybody is complaining about.
Because, let's say that everything boomwolf said is true 100%, and that tau isn't an overpowered army at all. That still doesn't make them an army worth pulling out your miniatures to play a game against. Well, attempt to play, rather...
Ailaros wrote: Not impressed. Arguments based on the idea that nobody brings Sv5+ models and that tau players can't figure out how to deploy units to take advantage of 6" overlapping overwatch, or that the definition of overpowered is "that unit you spam" isn't terribly convincing.
The arguments being made are assuming a brain-dead tau player with no player skill. Against anybody reasonably competent, they have the ability to shut down their opponent's ability to actually play the game while they're playing the game.
And that's what's important. It's not merely a matter of tau being a powerful army. It's they way they deploy their power that everybody is complaining about.
Because, let's say that everything boomwolf said is true 100%, and that tau isn't an overpowered army at all. That still doesn't make them an army worth pulling out your miniatures to play a game against. Well, attempt to play, rather...
In how many threads are you going to make the same tired argument? You're getting worse than Melissa and her PA attacks in 5th Ed. Ok, we all get that you think Tau take away your ability to play the game. Tau struggle with range outside their heavy slots and suffer from low toughness and poor saves. Figure something out.
Ailaros wrote: Not impressed. Arguments based on the idea that nobody brings Sv5+ models and that tau players can't figure out how to deploy units to take advantage of 6" overlapping overwatch, or that the definition of overpowered is "that unit you spam" isn't terribly convincing.
The arguments being made are assuming a brain-dead tau player with no player skill. Against anybody reasonably competent, they have the ability to shut down their opponent's ability to actually play the game while they're playing the game.
And that's what's important. It's not merely a matter of tau being a powerful army. It's they way they deploy their power that everybody is complaining about.
Because, let's say that everything boomwolf said is true 100%, and that tau isn't an overpowered army at all. That still doesn't make them an army worth pulling out your miniatures to play a game against. Well, attempt to play, rather...
And other guys dont shut down my ability to play?
Leafblower lists don't blow you off the board?
Tyranids dont have a hard against DE with all their poison weapons?
Necrons dont by having the guys i just killed get back up and have leadership 10 ALL AROUND?
Heldrakes dont by having a str 6 ap3 template weapon that can be placed 24 inches?
Deamons dont have the warpstorm table that, on a double 6 will kill your psyker?
Tau armies that don't spam certain non-troop units are fine and somewhat fun to play against. However, castled-up missile-side spam is obnoxious, especially when used with a riptide or two.
Ailaros wrote: Not impressed. Arguments based on the idea that nobody brings Sv5+ models and that tau players can't figure out how to deploy units to take advantage of 6" overlapping overwatch, or that the definition of overpowered is "that unit you spam" isn't terribly convincing.
The arguments being made are assuming a brain-dead tau player with no player skill. Against anybody reasonably competent, they have the ability to shut down their opponent's ability to actually play the game while they're playing the game.
And that's what's important. It's not merely a matter of tau being a powerful army. It's they way they deploy their power that everybody is complaining about.
Because, let's say that everything boomwolf said is true 100%, and that tau isn't an overpowered army at all. That still doesn't make them an army worth pulling out your miniatures to play a game against. Well, attempt to play, rather...
And other guys dont shut down my ability to play?
Leafblower lists don't blow you off the board?
Tyranids dont have a hard against DE with all their poison weapons?
Necrons dont by having the guys i just killed get back up and have leadership 10 ALL AROUND?
Heldrakes dont by having a str 6 ap3 template weapon that can be placed 24 inches?
Deamons dont have the warpstorm table that, on a double 6 will kill your psyker?
Actually I wouldn't say Nids vs DE. I would say Nids v GK actually. Poison seems fine and all for killing those darn MC except most of them still have 2+ and 3+ saves in comparison to GK that can auto-pass their sword's psyker test to instant kill.
I also wouldn't use the Daemon warpstorm table. Double 6 is more nasty. It is 2d6+4 (I believe) of any of the 4 troops deepstruck wherever. 5 and 6 is the combo for the psyker. Except it is a 3d6ld test so half of the time it will fail (against the majority of psykers that tend to have ld10). Also you are just as likely to get those as rolls that make you roll Daemonic Instability for every single unit on the map as well as one that makes you daemonic instability one of your hqs on a 3d6.
That being said, Tau aren't the only army that autostomps others in a rather unfair way. Heck, if you want a hopeless match, just think of daemons v GK before the new daemon codex. Heck, even after the daemon codex came out watch a match between these two.
I've played quite a lot of games against Tau and I still cannot think of a reliable counter to an ADL gunline.
I'll give you a hint. It starts with "M" and ends with "Anticores". Ally one in with IG.
Gaming group doesn't play alllies and if it's one unit in one army that can handle it, it's still ridiculous.
And all the "people that say Tau are OP are just crying babies" posts that are recycled like 50 times in this thread by the next cool guy to walk through the door are just as silly. I've never claimed Tau are OP or if they are, that I have a problem with it. I've said, time and time again, that my problem with Tau is not that I get crushed. I get crushed by a lot of people and smile at it. It's that I don't even get to put up a fight. It's. Not. Fun.
I play this game for fun. I don't know what your reason is, but I play it so that both me and my opponent can have a few hours of fun.
And other guys dont shut down my ability to play?
No. They make it so you can't win. There is a difference.
If I ran my paladin up your line. You fired all your ammo every turn, and I still came on you into CC with no wounds taken, then proceded to kill all your guys, that would equate to the feeling I have after a lot of Tau matches.
If I played Tau in the same situation, managed to kill half of those paladins, and then they came on me and killed all my guys, I'd be fine with that.
It's the complete inability to do ANY damage before you are destroyed that gets to me.
Wait Tau hate is new? Lol I've been playing since third and I was always under the impression most people bashed on the fish in gundams. For me it has always just been a boring one dimensional army to play against and I just personally don't like the esthisic. But to each there own.
ClassicCarraway wrote: Tau armies that don't spam certain non-troop units are fine and somewhat fun to play against. However, castled-up missile-side spam is obnoxious, especially when used with a riptide or two.
This is another thing, Why do i get yelled at for taking good units?
Riptides are good, but i only have 1.
So what if i run 4 misslesides with 4 drones? with them being ap4 most armies are safe against them.
Maybe the people that are most upset play a lot of kill point games. Thats what tau are good at, killing stuff. We are not very good at surviving. Wipe out our troops(and when damn near everything seems to have ap4 that shouldnt be too hard) and we have to table our opponent to win. Play us in kill points and you're likely to lose.
Im just so shocked that people dont put artillery in every list(except tau because we dont have it, its ok though we have ML instead), because i see a lot of people bring an ADL, Its not like its ONLY good against tau infantry, its good against anything willing to stay put.
When it comes to Tau, they seem to be a bit too powerful at the moment as 40k has shifted to a more shooting game then it has in past editions. Now personally I don't think Tau or OP, every army has a weakness, however the Tau's weakness, which is CC for the most part, it is pretty much hard for many to achieve as GW weakened the assault phase, giving them a slight edge over most armies. The only thing Tau have that I think needs to be fixed is the Marker Light spam, as it is kinda ridiculous on how they can use it for over-watch and see that 6+ snap shot turn into a 2+ due to so many of them. Limiting it to only a 4+ max would be fair in my opinion.
But besides that, Tau are not hard for me to deal with. Recently played a nasty Tau list, where is I'm honest, the Tau player was very cocky and laughing as he just demolished everyone, and he challenged me to a game when I told him I play Space Marines. Well, unfortunately for him I ran a Pedro-Sternguard Drop Pod list with 3x units of Sternguard, each with 5x Combi-Flamers and Combi-Meltas that came in turn one right in front of his Aegis Defense Line. Long story short, he was massacred by turn 2 and began complaining on how the Drop Pod list was OP. Well, since the Marines are getting a new book soon and with the way many books are going, I can't wait to see how the Drop Pod list will be updated in the new book =D. But lists that can get into the Tau's face by turn one tend to have great success against them.
Rommel44 wrote: When it comes to Tau, they seem to be a bit too powerful at the moment as 40k has shifted to a more shooting game then it has in past editions. Now personally I don't think Tau or OP, every army has a weakness, however the Tau's weakness, which is CC for the most part, it is pretty much hard for many to achieve as GW weakened the assault phase, giving them a slight edge over most armies. The only thing Tau have that I think needs to be fixed is the Marker Light spam, as it is kinda ridiculous on how they can use it for over-watch and see that 6+ snap shot turn into a 2+ due to so many of them. Limiting it to only a 4+ max would be fair in my opinion.
But besides that, Tau are not hard for me to deal with. Recently played a nasty Tau list, where is I'm honest, the Tau player was very cocky and laughing as he just demolished everyone, and he challenged me to a game when I told him I play Space Marines. Well, unfortunately for him I ran a Pedro-Sternguard Drop Pod list with 3x units of Sternguard, each with 5x Combi-Flamers and Combi-Meltas that came in turn one right in front of his Aegis Defense Line. Long story short, he was massacred by turn 2 and began complaining on how the Drop Pod list was OP. Well, since the Marines are getting a new book soon and with the way many books are going, I can't wait to see how the Drop Pod list will be updated in the new book =D. But lists that can into the Tau's face by turn one tend to have great success against them.
I can agree to basically everything except the marker lights.
an army that is spamming them will be wasting a ton of points to bump up 1 or 2 units at most to only ignore cover and hit near 100%. those marker lights being generally on very squishy low LD models. or armor 4+ on a wasted hq slot.
and in overwatch, those squads need to be within 6" of a charge or being charge to even get to fire them, at most getting 2 hits. thats only a bump to bs 4 at most unless multiple marker squads are within 6".
That doesn't mean it's right. It just feels odd that it's as easy to hit a stationary tank as it is to hit a fast moving jetbike, or being behind fortifications offers no protection from it.
hotsauceman1 wrote: But tau have always been able to ignore cover. ML have always had that ability
They did? Odd, I don't recall a tau springing that one on me last edition. I just remember the +1 bs bonus.
It was 1 marker light to bump up bs +1 up to bs 5, -1 ld for pinning?, -1 cover save, and shoot a seeker from wherever
so before you would need a marker for each cover instead of 2 for ignore cover now ( which i prefer)
Edit: The whole reason the marker lights are heavy is that the model is siting there painting the target the whole time until impact.
its not like a marker dart that sticks on the enemy and besides that even in today technology, we can pre lase a target that a smart missile or bomb can track even after the lase is off. (if i recall the new javalen system uses that so that the solder can shoot and scoot to avoid retaliatory fire)
hotsauceman1 wrote: But tau have always been able to ignore cover. ML have always had that ability
Forgive me but wasn't it slightly different? I thought there was something like you can pick to ignore cover but only have a bs of 3 or increase bs
Ah whoops thank you for explaining it. Knew it was something but never fought our local tau player all that much. And yeah you would love 2 marker lights removing cover xD he he (granted I doubt plasma would be able to curve down. You plan to go to ground for a cover save where they can hardly even see you let alone hit you? See the corner of an arm just barely? CURVING FRIGGIN PLASMA!)
hotsauceman1 wrote: But tau have always been able to ignore cover. ML have always had that ability
Forgive me but wasn't it slightly different? I thought there was something like you can pick to ignore cover but only have a bs of 3 or increase bs
Ah whoops thank you for explaining it. Knew it was something but never fought our local tau player all that much. And yeah you would love 2 marker lights removing cover xD he he (granted I doubt plasma would be able to curve down. You plan to go to ground for a cover save where they can hardly even see you let alone hit you? See the corner of an arm just barely? CURVING FRIGGIN PLASMA!)
You could always strip cover, and the limit was boosting BS could not get better then BS5.
It just took a bit more marks to totally remove cover, and the units with the markers were generally bad.
Now that they are actually worth a damn, it still leaves the markers on either a lousy guardsman that got to stand still, or the drone who can't aim unless a commander babysits it.
And both are easy kills, just shoot the damn thing. if they made it past turn 2, you are doing something wrong.
ClassicCarraway wrote: Tau armies that don't spam certain non-troop units are fine and somewhat fun to play against. However, castled-up missile-side spam is obnoxious, especially when used with a riptide or two.
This is another thing, Why do i get yelled at for taking good units?
Riptides are good, but i only have 1.
So what if i run 4 misslesides with 4 drones? with them being ap4 most armies are safe against them.
4 missile-sides is hardly spamming....9 missile-sides, now that's spamming. Also, AP4 is a non-factor when you deal out wounds in bulk like 9 missile-sides can. If AP4 was as harmless as you make it sound, missile-sides wouldn't be anywhere near as popular as they are now.
I hate the Tau for lots of reasons, two of which aren't from the table top, but one is.
1) The anime-esque battlesuits and tanks. While the basic troops and drones look pretty badass IMO, the battlesuits look utterly out-of-place in Warhammer 40,000 and would (I believe) be less out of place in, say, Gundam. Much the same could be said about their tanks.
2) The relative insignificance of the army in the fluff. The Tau have just over a hundred systems, yes? At one point I heard as low as 14, but that's even lower than I anticipated. Anyways, I would have rather seen a badass Barghesi army, or perhaps the Adeptus Mechanicus, or maybe a CraftWorld Eldar codex, than something pulled completely out of the blue. This is not just limited to the 6th codex, I mean this is how I've always felt about Tau.
3) Their battlefield shenanigans. This is the table-top one. The fact that their army can ignore cover, have interceptor, have skyfire, have snipers, have resilient vehicles, have deep-striking and effective anti-tank and anti-infantry, overwatch at full BS, overwatch one charging unit with multiple units, etc. all drive me nuts.
I play a gunline-esque army. I play Armored Battlegroup, and my 1700 point list is ten Leman Russ hulls, including two Vanquishers and two Thunderers, with the rest being basic. My shenanigans are: tough vehicles (against shooting), powerful shooting (sometimes, depending on cover), aaaaaannnnndddd that's about it. Many games I get wrecked because soldiers ran across the field, sticking to cover, than glued meltabombs or krak grenades to my tailpipe because I couldn't overwatch them.
The tau have vehicles with about the same toughness (AV14 ~ AV12-13 w/ jink + disruption pods), better shooting, can overwatch (at full ballistic skill no less!) can overwatch (at full ballistic skill no less) with multiple units simultaneously, can deep-strike, have skyfire on something other than a Hydra, and have interceptor on something period.
Their disadvantages are: 1) Low leadership ([sarcasm]because this matters outside of close combat[/sarcasm]) 2) Bad at CC (yes, yes they are. With the aforementioned advantages, however, it is largely irrelevant). aaaaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnnnndddddd that's about it.
DISCLAIMER: I, like some others in this thread, have an irrational hatred of Tau and have always had one. I apologize if any of this post came across as rude.
Unit1126PLL wrote: I hate the Tau for lots of reasons, two of which aren't from the table top, but one is.
1) The anime-esque battlesuits and tanks. While the basic troops and drones look pretty badass IMO, the battlesuits look utterly out-of-place in Warhammer 40,000 and would (I believe) be less out of place in, say, Gundam. Much the same could be said about their tanks.
I'm not going to address everything, but this one I will certainly address. Why does Tau always get smacked for looking "out of place"?
I'm seeing a tread here. One that I brought up when I first posted.
Some people just do not like Tau. Period. They do not think Tau fits into 40k and they feel like the Tau's like could have been another race.
Hrud, Admech, Ect. Doesn't matter, Anything else would have sufficed. And like I said this isn't just something trapped to Neckbeards. I'd be willing to bet most people who posted on this topic, Be it pro or Anti Tau, are decent folks who just like or dislike Tau.
At the end of the day, this is something that is applied to Tau Players that you'll have to deal with, Hotsauceman. It's almost no different than people disliking anything else you and I enjoy.
The codex does have a lot of powerful and strange wargear in it, but the Tau were never strangers to weird stuff in the codex. It's just been so long since our last update, most of the new players don't remember the Magical Xeno Empires of 4th edition.
Yes Tau are nothing compared to any other race, fluff wise, but they were initially made to cash in on Anime money in 3rd during the big anime bubble, but after GW figured out that alone, combined with all the crazy nonsense in the 3rd edtion codex, wouldn't move the army, they focused it to represent the little people were made to represent the smaller factions that otherwise wouldn't be mentioned.
3) Their battlefield shenanigans. This is the table-top one. The fact that their army can ignore cover, have interceptor, have skyfire, have snipers, have resilient vehicles, have deep-striking and effective anti-tank and anti-infantry, overwatch at full BS, overwatch one charging unit with multiple units, etc. all drive me nuts.
Their disadvantages are:
1) Low leadership ([sarcasm]because this matters outside of close combat[/sarcasm])
2) Bad at CC (yes, yes they are. With the aforementioned advantages, however, it is largely irrelevant).
aaaaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnnnndddddd that's about it.
Ok, I can't help it, I'm hitting this too: yes we can do all that, but not at the same time. Those are all individual weapons/wargear. We have to buy all those advantages. Our tank doesn't even come with a gun...we have to buy it (this was worse in the old codex where we put a 50 point gun on a 90 point tank, but it's still a thing). All of the talk about "tau can break all the rules" is because we can break rules with our wargear, but not all of them every game.
Disagvantages: our basic troop leadership is 7...7 ORKS have leadership 7, AND an alternate leadership rule! Imagine failing 40% of the leadership checks you have to make. That's why we take Ethereals, and now you have a t3 no save model you can kill for a free victory point. (sorry, i got a little carried away there, moving on).
And bad in close combat is a legitimate advantage, it's just that the basic game rules made it very hard to get in close combat. Once 7th edition gets released and close combat is back on top (like it's been in every other edition since 3rd) we will probably suck again, since overwatch probably won't even exist anymore and so our army special rule will be useless.
3) Their battlefield shenanigans. This is the table-top one. The fact that their army can ignore cover, have interceptor, have skyfire, have snipers, have resilient vehicles, have deep-striking and effective anti-tank and anti-infantry, overwatch at full BS, overwatch one charging unit with multiple units, etc. all drive me nuts.
Their disadvantages are: 1) Low leadership ([sarcasm]because this matters outside of close combat[/sarcasm]) 2) Bad at CC (yes, yes they are. With the aforementioned advantages, however, it is largely irrelevant). aaaaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnnnndddddd that's about it.
Ok, I can't help it, I'm hitting this too: yes we can do all that, but not at the same time. Those are all individual weapons/wargear. We have to buy all those advantages. Our tank doesn't even come with a gun...we have to buy it (this was worse in the old codex where we put a 50 point gun on a 90 point tank, but it's still a thing). All of the talk about "tau can break all the rules" is because we can break rules with our wargear, but not all of them every game.
Disagvantages: our basic troop leadership is 7...7 ORKS have leadership 7, AND an alternate leadership rule! Imagine failing 40% of the leadership checks you have to make. That's why we take Ethereals, and now you have a t3 no save model you can kill for a free victory point. (sorry, i got a little carried away there, moving on).
And bad in close combat is a legitimate advantage, it's just that the basic game rules made it very hard to get in close combat. Once 7th edition gets released and close combat is back on top (like it's been in every other edition since 3rd) we will probably suck again, since overwatch probably won't even exist anymore and so our army special rule will be useless.
You may not be able to do all of those things at the same time. But you can still do them if one is absolutely necessary. Many (I would go so far as to say most) armies cannot do one or more of them at all.
Leadership 7 is only really bad if you flee and then can't rally, i.e. at the end of close combat. Otherwise it's nearly a 60% chance of passing, which means even a squad that does break will rally next turn unless the dice gods really do not like you that day. I would also like to mention that basic Guard are LD7 and then LD8 with sergeants, just like Tau.
And the basic rules don't make it THAT hard to get into close combat. My Black Templars (!) still manage it against every other army in the game except Tau. That's not a basic rule problem.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Th game i mentioned, 3 unitis over watching, 1 dead.
Yeah, SO OP
That one model, more likely than not, can alter the charge distance by as much as 3" given coherency and spreading to avoid blasts. So yes, it's very op. I just lost 1/4 of my maximum charge distance, and roughly half of my average charge distance.
The Tau hitting on full BS with more than one unit significantly increases the chances compared to a single unit hitting on 6's. You don't see why that might be a problem?
Would a single unit firing at BS1 have still killed that model in all likelyhood?
I just hate tau in general always have always will except for Aun shi that dudes a badass its their fluff that does it for me teir whole greater good concept grinds my gears
Most Tau hate comes from several different sources: first, the fluff purists who don't bother to read the Tau fluff before declaring that they don't sound GRIMDARK enough to fit into the rest of the galaxy (hint: 1984 is a very, very dark book about a society that spouted a lot of rhetoric about peace, truth, love, etc), second, the poor sports, who complain that every new book is overpowered because they haven't figured out the holes in it yet, third, the nostalgic GW-sucks whiners who gripe about everything, and fourth, people with legitimate and well-thought-out concerns about some aspect of the rules or the fluff. Distinguishing between the four categories can be a chore, but I have yet another hint: people who give you a single unpunctuated run-on sentence about how much they hate the Tau and people who sit around presenting single in-game anecdotes about the Tau being really, really good at the stuff they're designed to be really, really good at aren't the ones with legitimate and well-thought-out concerns.
What upgrade allows Tau to overwatch at full ballistic skill? I have a Tau codex and I somehow seem to have overlooked this mythical gem entirely. Tau -do- have an upgrade that they can purchase for their battlesuits that allows them to overwatch at ballistic skill two. Unless you are talking of overwatching with markerlights, then increasing the overwatch to hit roll of the unit being charged. Even then.. the likeliness of that working out so perfectly is low.
Nightwolf829 wrote: What upgrade allows Tau to overwatch at full ballistic skill? I have a Tau codex and I somehow seem to have overlooked this mythical gem entirely. Tau -do- have an upgrade that they can purchase for their battlesuits that allows them to overwatch at ballistic skill two. Unless you are talking of overwatching with markerlights, then increasing the overwatch to hit roll of the unit being charged. Even then.. the likeliness of that working out so perfectly is low.
Exactly, very rarely will your marker lights even hit.
Nightwolf829 wrote: What upgrade allows Tau to overwatch at full ballistic skill? I have a Tau codex and I somehow seem to have overlooked this mythical gem entirely. Tau -do- have an upgrade that they can purchase for their battlesuits that allows them to overwatch at ballistic skill two. Unless you are talking of overwatching with markerlights, then increasing the overwatch to hit roll of the unit being charged. Even then.. the likeliness of that working out so perfectly is low.
I believe it has to do with the Marker Lights or there Etheral leader, can't remember exactly, however that is my only beef with these guys as I find that being able to over-watch with a decent BS is a bit overpowered to say the least, especially against assaulting armies. But besides that they aren't as scary as people make them out to be. Drop-Pod lists, Leman Russ spam lists, and even mass infantry armies usually do well, and air superiority lists are also effective in my experience.
Nightwolf829 wrote: What upgrade allows Tau to overwatch at full ballistic skill? I have a Tau codex and I somehow seem to have overlooked this mythical gem entirely. Tau -do- have an upgrade that they can purchase for their battlesuits that allows them to overwatch at ballistic skill two. Unless you are talking of overwatching with markerlights, then increasing the overwatch to hit roll of the unit being charged. Even then.. the likeliness of that working out so perfectly is low.
That is what I think that individual was mentioning which admittedly is, as you put, a tad over dramatic. Admittedly, Tau overwatch (if we have a unit of 6) is likely to get a single 6 meaning overwatch will be at bs3 for battlesuits (if they got the upgrade) and bs2 for troops.
Could you expand on that please? Basically, what do alot of your buddies play ect.
To me, it sounds like you build tournament style lists, since I am not sure what other way the kid gloves would be on for. And if you do run a tournament style list, and you beat your buddy's very handily while they themselves use No Gloves lists, it would seem you have a better army or are a superior player.
So, either you do not win very often prior to the new Tau codex, or something else entirely is making your buddies grumpy.
But nobody buys the upgrade (which is battlesuit only and allows you to overwatch at BS 2) unless the FAQ ironed out the drone controller+commander+marker drone controversy, in which case...6 marker drones overwatching on their normal bs...could be a bit frustrating.
Nightwolf829 wrote: What upgrade allows Tau to overwatch at full ballistic skill? I have a Tau codex and I somehow seem to have overlooked this mythical gem entirely. Tau -do- have an upgrade that they can purchase for their battlesuits that allows them to overwatch at ballistic skill two. Unless you are talking of overwatching with markerlights, then increasing the overwatch to hit roll of the unit being charged. Even then.. the likeliness of that working out so perfectly is low.
I believe it has to do with the Marker Lights or there Etheral leader, can't remember exactly, however that is my only beef with these guys as I find that being able to over-watch with a decent BS is a bit overpowered to say the least, especially against assaulting armies. But besides that they aren't as scary as people make them out to be. Drop-Pod lists, Leman Russ spam lists, and even mass infantry armies usually do well, and air superiority lists are also effective in my experience.
There are two things
Marker Lights, which initially needs 6s to hit,
and counter fire defense system which boost bs to 2 for over watch
hardly full bs.
everyone realizes that you need 6s to hit first right? generally speaking you may have 10 pathfinders that are getting charged or near by a charge, they hit mabye 2 of those markerlights, the squad next to it then can be boosted to bs 4+ to have this work you need decent positioning.
the entire way you could be whittling them down as you go heck flamers destroy pathfinders on contact and everyone has access to them (basically)
If its a commander squad, they still hit on 6s and cannot use any crisis suit war gear like ignore cover or reroll misses as it only works durring your own shooting.
FYI Ethereal can only
Stubborn
extra pulse weapon shot at half range
fnp 6+
fire snap shots after running.
I play Eldar, and have only played against a Tau army 3 times since I began playing.
Once in a friendly game, where I had a close win as he was short on mobile troops, so I was able to hit the objectives.
Twice in a tournament setting;
The second of the two was a game I won, with the new eldar codex. I was able to get into CC, and got rid of his markerlights early with serpent shields. I can't emphasise how important killing those pathfinders is.
The first game I ever played against Tau, was in my first ever tournament. This guy went on to win the tourney, and I was utterly smashed by him.
This was using the old codex, and I played a shooty list hiding behind an Aegis. I had first turn, and he stole the initiative, and proceeded to almost completely table me in a single turn. 3 Skyrays and two riptides with Eldrad guiding them will do that I suppose. This guy is basically undefeated with this army, and it's a complete gunline castle list. He does nothing but shoot people off the table, and wins by having a scoring unit on a home objective, while his opponent has no scoring units left.
Not fun to play against, but damn effective.
Personally, I've got no issue with the army. Because, I could drop the money and buy the same shooty army, and get the same result. But I don't, I like playing my Eldar, and I enjoy winning a close game because I played them well. I wouldn't enjoy winning with a gunline Tau list half as much. That, and it does get you marked down in other categories.
Nobody likes to score high to composition when the movement phase consists of nothing, and the shooting phase is 30-40 minutes of me putting my army back in my case.
That, and the aforementioned player gets marked down in sportsmanship. Nobody likes to get tabled without killing a model, especially when it's by a smug git that insists on telling you exactly why.
The point I'm making is that it's not the army, its the player. The two other games i've played against Tau have not been the same savaging I received on the 3rd occasion. But those two games were against more casual players, who turned up with a balanced list.
A nothing-but-shooty Tau list will get the same reaction as a Necron Wraithwing list, or a Ravenwing Bolterbanner list, or a triple-drake list. The same sigh of derision as I remind myself why I don't do the same. It's not the army/codex that's the problem. It's the player that decided to play that army. It's just that Tau tends to attract that guy more than other codex's.
I don't personally have anything against the Tau, but admittedly most of the games I have watched with them involved are pretty 1 sided/not fun to watch. We have 3 Tau players at my local gaming store & they all basically use the same strategy. Riptide with drones, battlesuits surrounded by drones that have a 4+ invulnerable save. Since you cannot out shoot the Tau, the only real option left is to assault them. Anyone who attempts to assault them gets hit by 2 units with supporting fire rule? That is assuming you even make it into CC since they have jet boosters or w/e & they render cover useless.
I haven't played these players myself, just spectated. From the games I watched this weekend they beat Necrons, Orks, Chaos Daemons with little to no effort.
Anything that bypasses fundamental functions of the game will receive complaints because your opponent has to play by those rules and disadvantages while you get to ignore them.
Marines bypass poor armor.
Tau bypass overwatch and cover.
Heldrakes bypass hull point loss, cone of fire, cover, good armor saves, attack loss through jink, and attack loss through movement.
Tyberos the Red Wake wrote: Anything that bypasses fundamental functions of the game will receive complaints because your opponent has to play by those rules and disadvantages while you get to ignore them.
Marines bypass poor armor.
Tau bypass overwatch and cover.
Heldrakes bypass hull point loss, cone of fire, cover, good armor saves, attack loss through jink, and attack loss through movement.
Whats cone of fire?
Whats attack loss through jink/movement?
When I used to run 10 Wraithguard with invisibility,fortune and 4+ fnp on them - they used to bypass taking wounds.
I got complaints. Havent run them since the rest of the dex got better.
Could you expand on that please? Basically, what do alot of your buddies play ect.
To me, it sounds like you build tournament style lists, since I am not sure what other way the kid gloves would be on for. And if you do run a tournament style list, and you beat your buddy's very handily while they themselves use No Gloves lists, it would seem you have a better army or are a superior player.
So, either you do not win very often prior to the new Tau codex, or something else entirely is making your buddies grumpy.
Heldrakes bypass hull point loss, cone of fire, cover, good armor saves, attack loss through jink, and attack loss through movement.
Whats cone of fire?
Whats attack loss through jink/movement?
Heldrake has a turret mounted TORRENT flamer that does st 6? ap 3
because it is a daemon engine it has it will not die and has a 5+ stock invul save which is about as good as a regular jink so no point in jinking.
Wolfnid420 wrote: Im just so shocked that people dont put artillery in every list(except tau because we dont have it, its ok though we have ML instead), because i see a lot of people bring an ADL, Its not like its ONLY good against tau infantry, its good against anything willing to stay put.
I want to play Blood Angels, not BA + IG artillery. Although I do not expect GW to solve that particular issue as they want people to use allies.
Maybe I beed to get Shadowsun, some pathfinders and 3 Riptides.
Wolfnid420 wrote: Im just so shocked that people dont put artillery in every list(except tau because we dont have it, its ok though we have ML instead), because i see a lot of people bring an ADL, Its not like its ONLY good against tau infantry, its good against anything willing to stay put.
I want to play Blood Angels, not BA + IG artillery. Although I do not expect GW to solve that particular issue as they want people to use allies.
Maybe I beed to get Shadowsun, some pathfinders and 3 Riptides.
Necrons don't get artillery either. Except for the sentry pylons.
I'm pretty sure Dark Eldar don't get artillery either.
Forgot one more thing . They are getting a Farsight sub digital codex just like eldar did , making it possible to play tau with tau ally with even greater
Heldrakes bypass hull point loss, cone of fire, cover, good armor saves, attack loss through jink, and attack loss through movement.
Whats cone of fire?
Whats attack loss through jink/movement?
Heldrake has a turret mounted TORRENT flamer that does st 6? ap 3
because it is a daemon engine it has it will not die and has a 5+ stock invul save which is about as good as a regular jink so no point in jinking.
I know what the heldrake can do Your phrasing was different is all.
I use to have a Tau army. I sold them when I heard how their new codex was going to work. For me I hatted having to turtle to live and was hoping that the new codex would round them out a little, like how Far-sight and his Fire warrior are suppose to be more melee oriented. When I saw it was going to be more of the same I could not imagine them being fun to play any more and sold them. which I do not regret.
Makumba wrote: Forgot one more thing . They are getting a Farsight sub digital codex just like eldar did , making it possible to play tau with tau ally with even greater
You can't do that. Supplemental codex's cannot ally with the main codex.
hotsauceman1 wrote: S, In my game tonight i was playing tau v. eldar i kept hearing tau hate. Like how i can ignore cover, how i dont have the things modeled on, I do BTW, but certain things like EWO or MSS or Command and control node don't have official war gear. The guy was nice and a little frustrated but he is a good friend so i gave him a break. But still the table behind me(Necron v Eldar) I kept hearing tau trash, how we rendered his flyers obsolete, how we killed 600pts in one shot and so forth.
Why do i keep encountering Tau hate, but not DA hate, or deamon hate, or eldar hate?
My dislike of Tau goes back to the 3rd edition... I don't like the way they play, and I don't like the way they look. Hate is a strong word; I will stay play games against Tau, and in 3rd edition and for a brief moment in 5th edition people hated Blood Angels even worse, my army, so I feel your pain but still... don't like Tau hah.
Makumba wrote: The table says tau. And tau farsight enclave is a tau codex. just like both the eldar ones.
Exactly, an army can't ally with itself.
And that's straight from Choosing your army (beginning at pg108) and the allies matrix on page 113. The allies must be from a different Codex, and that's why there's no box telling us how an army would regard allying with itself.
Though, these things being called supplements... has anyone bought the Iyanden book and checked it out yet? Is it a free-standing army or are there options to integrate it into a normal Eldar army?
This post has made me some what angry.
The truth is people are n*bs.
The thing to do is moan and bitch because your army that once killed everything is now getting whipped so rather than change tactics or your army list the New army list must be broken. Forget the hundreds of play hours that go into proving the codex out it has to be broken.
Until all the codexs are out there will be an imbalance towards 6th edition codexs but it is not insurmountable. My sw recently beat a 6th edition cd codex that beat a 6th edition da army.
People say the same things about fliers and that 6th edition is rubbish. What 6th edition has done is change things and guess what, people don't like change. It makes you think about the game again and if you don't like it go play chess or snap.
Anyway I love the new tau codex, I don't own the army but enjoy playing against it.
Makumba wrote: The table says tau. And tau farsight enclave is a tau codex. just like both the eldar ones.
Exactly, an army can't ally with itself.
And that's straight from Choosing your army (beginning at pg108) and the allies matrix on page 113. The allies must be from a different Codex, and that's why there's no box telling us how an army would regard allying with itself.
Though, these things being called supplements... has anyone bought the Iyanden book and checked it out yet? Is it a free-standing army or are there options to integrate it into a normal Eldar army?
It's a supplement, not a Codex. You're still playing Codex: Eldar and as such can't ally with yourself.
I've played Tau since the 3rd ed book hit the shelves. I liked the idea of a mobile, elite shooting army to change up playstyles from my static, hordey shooting IG army. I think because that was my initial build for the army, that's how I still play it. I don't play with an Aegis, I don't have any Riptides (I'm cheap), I outflank a lot. That being said, I still feel like the army is really, really good. I feel like a boxer that has good feet and long arms. I can just keep hitting, and hitting, but my enemy can't land better than a glancing blow. That might change with experience, I don't know. I do think it has been frustrating for some of my opponents, but I also think I've been outplaying a lot of them.
This is the way I see their advantages: They're big, and they're different from most armies, but they don't always work together, and they require some skill to pull off.
1.) Markerlights: I my experience, there's really only going to be one reliable unit of Markerlights in the Tau army. Pathfinders are squishy as hell and static, and drones are expensive and lousy shots. Wherever the Commander is will have accurate, mobile, well protected Markerlights. This is because the Commander should always be T5 with a 2+ save. He can tank like a champ, and lend his BS to the drones. It will probably be more work to kill this unit than it's worth unless you have artillery to bypass the rock sitting in front of the unit. If you can't kill it, it's going to hit a single unit of yours, and it's going to hit it with a big chunk (6-8) Markerlights. This is going to allow a ton of units to really wail on this one unit, but it's probably only one unit that will get this treatment if you're doing your job and mitigating other sources of Markerlights. Also remember that Markerlights have 36". That's good range, but it's not across the board range (not if the Markerlights are protected).
2.) Interceptor weapons don't get benefits of Markerlights, and rarely get benefits of Skyfire. The Riptide is the most feared Interceptor (by my understanding, but if you use it with Interceptor, you can't use it with Markerlight support, which means that it's got an awesome blast that is BS3, won't fire 1/6 times, and you can take cover from. If you can mitigate Leman Russes, you can mitigate Intercepting Riptides. I'm not saying they're not good, but forcing a Tau unit to fire it's most important weapon in your turn means it won't be firing with Markerlight support in the next turn. The Riptide is also the only unit you're going to see with both Interceptor and Skyfire. Of the two weapons it can take, the most popular (Ion Accelerator) is a pretty poor AA weapon for the points. 3 S7 AP2 shots isn't instant death to any flyer, really. Again, I won't say Interceptor isn't a great ability, but it plays against the strength of Markerlights.
3.) I think there's two strong answers to Tau, and not every army has good access to them. One is artillery discussed previously in the thread. Two is alpha striking short-range firepower (outflanking squads, drop-podding marines, probably others). You need tough, not terribly expensive bodies (Marines) that can show up and put serious short-range fire into the Tau bodies. Both infantry, and Crisis suits will fold to this kind of fire. Broadsides and Riptides can sustain it, depending the weapons used, but the range advantage is mitigated to a degree. Basically, tac Marine squads can beat Tau in a close-range firefight (assuming proper long range support also), but they can't get there without some other mechanic to help them out (like Drop Pods).
4.) I'm not sure that any these things make Tau "fun" to play against, but they are angles that can be approached in trying to do the best against new Tau. That being said, I think some people find different armies unfun to play against. To some extent, every army tries to prevent the opposing army from doing it's thing. Just because one army gives you a false sense of accomplishment by allowing you to remove unimportant models is it more "fun" than an army that makes it hard to remove models?
The reason I think that the new tau are broken and too strong compared to the rest of the 6th ed armies is that there are very few weaknesses and the majority of them they have the ability to counter it with ease. Any sort of ap4 barrage weapons will be a pain for them but it os not hard to just spread out leaving your opponent hitting just a couple. Any drop pods filled with things like flamers will do a number on the FW and pathfinders but any riptide with interceptor will make short work of the alpha striking unit.
CC is far out of the question as a viable weakness because the tau can and will shoot them to pieces before they can get to them and those pieces that do make it will die in droves to mass overwatch. Ethereals make this even worse with the ability to give them even more shots at half range.
You cannot out shoot the tau because they can and will just GTG behind their ADL for 2+ cover. Any gunline will fall to tau because they have the ability to ignore an entire aspect of the game with ease. The only solid counter to them is either a GK incinerator shunt list or any sort of ap4 ignoring cover weapon (preferably template of some sort), and that is IF they are not running a farsight bomb. But if they are then it is almost an autolose.
The only real way to survive them is to have ridiculously good invuls enmasse which no army has, or an army of t5+ which only chaos has the ability to do with ease AFAIK.
This is not just some sort of QQing hecause I am too lazy to try something new, I have tried multiple different approaches to fight the tau but their riptides are broken since they can do literally anything, their supporting fire rule completely removes an aspect of the game when used correctly. Markerlights can now effectively strip any cover save with some lights left to spare. Farsight bombs are near unkillable unless you have a barrage battlecannon equivalent and can deal out far too much damage and can ignore cover and do many other things. There are no armies that can currently break the game as hard as the tau can. They have the ability to and often do ignore a couple aspects of the entire game which throws tactics out the window because most tactics revolve around cover and terrain which the tau ignore with ease. The point is they basically have made CC useless and can outshoot any army due to the fact that they ignore whole aspects of the game and will destroy entire armies that depend on it. I hate to break it to you but they are worse then GK in 5th ed because at least with GK you could fight them unlike tau where you may as well not even bother unpacking your models and just call it a game.
I'm starting to repeat myself so I'm just gonna shut up now
Generally speaking, the units with 4+ saves are generally low in model count and have low leadership. It means that even if you only manage to take out 3 firewarriors, then you have enough for a morale check. Unless they pay 10 extra points per unit for +1 leadership or an ethereal, they have a good chance to fail. Pathfinders are worse, because they are already high cost models, but have worse armor and lower model count.
A lot of people complain that Tau get to ignore an entire aspect of the game (cover saves and overwatch). Well I personally can't stand how marines get ATSKNF which almost completely ruins the leadership aspect of the game to me, yet nobody really throws a fuss about that. I hate that Necrons can bring back entire squads unless I dedicate overkill amounts of firepower to completely destroy one squad. I hate that Eldar and DE get so many lance weapons that completely negate the aspect of A13/14 in the game.
Savageconvoy wrote: Well I personally can't stand how marines get ATSKNF which almost completely ruins the leadership aspect of the game to me, yet nobody really throws a fuss about that.
Really? That's probably one of the most common complaints.
Savageconvoy wrote: Well I personally can't stand how marines get ATSKNF which almost completely ruins the leadership aspect of the game to me, yet nobody really throws a fuss about that.
You must hate fearless units.
I hate that Necrons can bring back entire squads unless I dedicate overkill amounts of firepower to completely destroy one squad.
Try dealing with Portalglyphs and Riftbringers plus double sixes on the Warpstorm table.
I hate that Eldar and DE get so many lance weapons that completely negate the aspect of A13/14 in the game.
Then you must pull your hair out over Strength 10 weapons...
Strength 8 vs AV 12... need a 4+
Strength 10 vs AV 14... need a 4+
Eldar can field a pure T5+ army with ease as well... but don't forget Kroot all come with sniper rounds as well, meaning they can just ignore that advantage.
The person i play the most is a Tau player- and this is why i hate him.
Firstly- The main weakness of the Tau is also the think they are equipped the best to deal with. They can get extreme overwatch and massive amounts of fire that can decimate things attempting to charge them.
And the kroot are absolutely ridiculous in my opinion. Markerlighting a monstrous creature and getting 20 sniper shots hitting on 2's is just stupid in my opinion. Then you need three 6's and a Wraithlord is dead 6 6's will kill a wraithknight without the shield.. Now if they cost a fair amount of points it would be okay- but they are dirt cheap too and use cover so much.
Armies like Eldar have nothing to remove a cover save other than templates. The only one which would be useful being the nightspinner, but then tau have so much vehicle destruction that it is unrealistic to get close enough.
Everything has so much range that Tau are always outshooting me. And they never have to move because of outflanking kroot which can capture objectives.
And finally, just to piss me off even more. They can move up to 12 inches away from me in the assault phase, meaning that they can always be hiding in cover and any short range gun is out of range, even with battle focus.
In my opinion- Infantry are gunned down, Vehicles are gunned down, High toughness is gunned down, Deep striking is gunned down, and that little unit that manages to get get close enough to declare a charge... Is then gunned down by the combined overwatch.
But for me. The Kroot are by far the worst things in the army.
Rant over...
Having said all that... He hasn't actually beat me in a game yet and we have played loads, but that is because he isn't a great player.
(60 kroot in 5th edition... Why?)
TWilkins wrote: The person i play the most is a Tau player- and this is why i hate him.
Firstly- The main weakness of the Tau is also the think they are equipped the best to deal with. They can get extreme overwatch and massive amounts of fire that can decimate things attempting to charge them.
And the kroot are absolutely ridiculous in my opinion. Markerlighting a monstrous creature and getting 20 sniper shots hitting on 2's is just stupid in my opinion. Then you need three 6's and a Wraithlord is dead 6 6's will kill a wraithknight without the shield.. Now if they cost a fair amount of points it would be okay- but they are dirt cheap too and use cover so much.
Armies like Eldar have nothing to remove a cover save other than templates. The only one which would be useful being the nightspinner, but then tau have so much vehicle destruction that it is unrealistic to get close enough.
Everything has so much range that Tau are always outshooting me. And they never have to move because of outflanking kroot which can capture objectives.
And finally, just to piss me off even more. They can move up to 12 inches away from me in the assault phase, meaning that they can always be hiding in cover and any short range gun is out of range, even with battle focus.
In my opinion- Infantry are gunned down, Vehicles are gunned down, High toughness is gunned down, Deep striking is gunned down, and that little unit that manages to get get close enough to declare a charge... Is then gunned down by the combined overwatch.
But for me. The Kroot are by far the worst things in the army.
Rant over...
Having said all that... He hasn't actually beat me in a game yet and we have played loads, but that is because he isn't a great player.
(60 kroot in 5th edition... Why?)
Eldar have Wave Serpents that can shoot 60" D6 S7 shots (usually twinlinked) that ignore cover. The Nightspinner has barrage and torrent attacks that rend and are S7 against most Tau. Jetbikes and Warpspiders are fast and maneuverable enough to get around cover. Tau castling up on you? Just run a couple of WS loaded down with D-scythe Wraithguard and drop them off right in front of them, problem solved. Sorry, but of all armies, Eldar have the least to fear from Tau.
Eldar have Wave Serpents that can shoot 60" D6 S7 shots (usually twinlinked) that ignore cover. The Nightspinner has barrage and torrent attacks that rend and are S7 against most Tau. Jetbikes and Warpspiders are fast and maneuverable enough to get around cover. Tau castling up on you? Just run a couple of WS loaded down with D-scythe Wraithguard and drop them off right in front of them, problem solved. Sorry, but of all armies, Eldar have the least to fear from Tau.
Oh yeah- Sorry about the wave serpents- I don't have any so i kind of forget about them.
But i disagree that Eldar have the least to fear from Tau- Those Wraithguard you mentioned can be destroyed pretty quickly with battlesuits and even fire warriors- who can wound them on 5's. And let's not forget Kroot And Wraithguard only have 12" Or template range. Which things like suits can easily keep away from if they are using assault jumps. So unless you have a spiritseer with Voice of Twilight then you're in some trouble.
And i forgot to rant about the thing that gives your weapons the get's hot special rule. How the hell is a triskele ever going to get hot?!
I really like the Tau (am considering getting a 2nd army of them) but will be honest I hate playing against them for all the reasons listed above. The only advantage that I have (have played against the new Tau twice) is I take so many flyers that it becomes a problem of target priority for my opponent with my IG. The other game I was playtesting a Mechdar list and I ironically was able to outshoot him in the first turn (he had bad luck with markerlights).
Really that is the only thing I find stupid and a little annoying about their codex is the amount of cheap markerlights or rahter "magic laser pointers of doom" that they can get and some of the shinanigans that they can do. I will admit I tease my buddies who have Tau but not about the game, just the fact that they are "blue berries"
I think it was fairer when a markerlight could minus 1 from a cover save. Now it costs 2 to remove it.
"Some Eldar Pathfinders with a 2+ cover save? Don't worry, we'll land 2 markerlights and then kill them with fire warriors. That's a nice 250 point squad with nothing to save it."
Actually, that's a point: how many AP2 weapons outside the Tau Codex can ignore cover (without the use of psychic powers)? The only non-template weapon I can think of is the Deathstrike Missile...
AlmightyWalrus wrote: Actually, that's a point: how many AP2 weapons outside the Tau Codex can ignore cover (without the use of psychic powers)? The only non-template weapon I can think of is the Deathstrike Missile...
On the flipside, how many codices have zero psykers (and zero non-psyker anti-psykers units to boot, rendering zero defense options in that field)?
I count SoB, and they are too outdated to be even relevant to a proper discussion of what's "fair", everyone else got at least something, and some got insane accesses.
When i started back in 5th I picked GKs b/c I love psykers and there were people even who refused to play the new guy b/c GK were OP. I know how the OP feels.
I hate that Necrons can bring back entire squads unless I dedicate overkill amounts of firepower to completely destroy one squad.
Yes, because rolling 10 or so 5s at once is completely commonplace.
Well you only need 4s if you have a Resorb lord handy, and the Ghost Ark can make more Necrons stand back up. But if you're taking Arks, you're not taking Night Scythes.
I hate that Necrons can bring back entire squads unless I dedicate overkill amounts of firepower to completely destroy one squad.
Yes, because rolling 10 or so 5s at once is completely commonplace.
Well you only need 4s if you have a Resorb lord handy, and the Ghost Ark can make more Necrons stand back up. But if you're taking Arks, you're not taking Night Scythes.
And if you're taking arks that means that your bolters that you can shoot with are handily reinforced by more... bolters. Except pointed in awkward directions, and half of which have to snap fire if you move six inches.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Happened again man. This one guy wont stop insulting toy, he keeps making coi marks about tau and how op they are.
Life sucks dude.
I could point you to the 1000 page GK hate thread. I doubt it would do much good.
Ironically, GK is who I lost to.
If hes oldgk, point out to him he has no room to talk about going from a meh out of date codex to cheese. If hes not from old GK, point out to him GK cheese and bandwagoning.
Not everyone has had time to understand all it's rules.
Marker lights in particular can "ignore" certain rules that some armies depend on to survive.
People do not tend to take ownership of their ignorance so claim it is the fault of the codex rather than them not reading it or getting at least a summary.
You do not make the rules, he does not get to ignore them.
He should take his beating with a smile and buy a Tau codex.
That is the weirdest part, he has the tau codex to read(His son plays them).
When HE complained and i mentioned the rules he should know from tau because he has the codex aswell, he insulted me by saying im young and dont work and has no life so i can focus on this game(When i was taking a full load at college no less)
hotsauceman1 wrote: That is the weirdest part, he has the tau codex to read(His son plays them).
When HE complained and i mentioned the rules he should know from tau because he has the codex aswell, he insulted me by saying im young and dont work and has no life so i can focus on this game(When i was taking a full load at college no less)
Just ignore them, its just like trolls on the interwebs, don't feed them
to bad there is no yellow triangle of friendship irl
If I don't get first turn, I'm probably going to get destroyed. If I go first, it's usually a good game. I take Baron, so usually I go first.
I don't like how they ignore cover, it makes Baron angry (he doesn't cry) and I rely on cover saves for my Ravagers and Reavers.
Maybe I'm just slow, but I get all their guns mixed up. Eventually I guess I'll pick up on them all, but I didn't play against them that much before this edition... when I ask my opponent what guns they have, it's like he's speaking a different language. It's probably how I sound to a non-player if I had to explain stuff.
The two things I like about Tau are:
1) They are Xenos
2) They make people reconsider taking flyers... which I struggle with
The big hate with a codex like tau is it was very VERY meta changing......
and when 40k is as expensive as it is, and time consuming to model and paint and you now need to adapt or die.....it pisses people off, and rightly so.
Its also why in this game flavor of the month is so infuriating, since it is such a huge investment of resources and time to be a flavor of the month person, so it pisses a lot of people off on both sides....
for instance my story - I played elder since 2nd edition but when 4th edition elder came out they DESTROYED my thematic list I had spent painstaking hours converting.....so I shelved/sold it and picked up Tau which had come out recently
Now I play Tau and Eldar and I am happy once again as 6th has done well by both of them.
I can agree with the above post, Tau are (so far) the Space Wolves of 6th edition (although not as full of one-ups, obviously). It's the Book everyone has to build to deal with the most, and dealing with it isn't that easy.
I should busty out my Dark Eldar and try to boot my friend, whose excellent with Tau, in the nads. I usually let the opponent go first in all my games, so that won't be any great shakes. We'll see how he does. Maybe Ill call him tonight...
Theorius wrote: The big hate with a codex like tau is it was very VERY meta changing......
and when 40k is as expensive as it is, and time consuming to model and paint and you now need to adapt or die.....it pisses people off, and rightly so.
Its also why in this game flavor of the month is so infuriating, since it is such a huge investment of resources and time to be a flavor of the month person, so it pisses a lot of people off on both sides....
for instance my story - I played elder since 2nd edition but when 4th edition elder came out they DESTROYED my thematic list I had spent painstaking hours converting.....so I shelved/sold it and picked up Tau which had come out recently
Now I play Tau and Eldar and I am happy once again as 6th has done well by both of them.
I think this is what upsets people most is they invest in a army (Which were talking hundreds if not thousands of dollars) & then they have to completely reconfigure it to even stand a chance against the Tau. Anything that depends on cover saves is out the window.
I'll say this here.... It isn't fun watching Dark Eldar fight Tau.... in fact it was one of the most painful things I have ever watched. I had to leave the room it was so painful to watch. *shivers*
In the end I'll agree with the above. It sin't broken but it is the army that has all of the solutions and options in reach. It has access to cheap and efficient snipers, it has a way to get good skyfire and intercept (compared to most other armies), it can counter many of the popular lists, it is extremely popular, and it has the guns in an edition that prefers the shooter over the assaulter. On top of that, the overwatch buffs for them and the general disadvantages of assault in this recent edition have made them startlingly good. Not impossible to defeat obviously and it still certainly has to do with them being the first Xenos race updated (ignoring Chaos Daemons because they are in an odd area. They are chaos. They aren't Imperium nor really Xenos not to mention daemons aren't really that popular). On top of that, if you compare them to the predecessors, you will notice that DA and, in particular, CSM suffer from some flaws here and there. Daemons had some kinks but for the most part seem more like a 6th edition. Finally, Tau came in and it seems like they are the first army (besides Necrons) that truly feel 6th edition playing the new edition to their favour with proper synergy.
The dex is powerful for sure, but not invincible. Fire Warriors behind Aegis lines are Artillery bait (Whirlwinds, the entire IG heavy support section, etc). Broadsides can be dealt with in the same manner as before, and combinations such as Sniper Rifles + a Psyker Battle Squad can whittle Riptides down. (lol LD2. Oh, what's that, you're pinned in place and can't overwatch? Enjoy my Hammer Termies).
The cover eliminating aspect of the dex is very game changing, especially in an edition which focused on infantry sitting in cover. But that makes it sweeter when you show up to your FLGS with an old 5th-style mech list which nobody expects anymore. Laugh maniacally as STR8 desperately tries to chew a Land Raider apart.
The comparison to Space Wolves in 5th is pretty apt.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Oh you will love this, Cheesecrons.
Warriors all smacked into a skysheild.
On related news my tau army finally got called Cheese by my friend who plays cheesecrons as well.
was pretty boss though taking out 300 points in vehicles with a tool belt commander on a riptide.
I got told by a cron player that the Sweeping Advance rules were the most broken thing in the game after 5 daemonettes wiped out a 20 man silver tide warrior block....he couldn't call the army cheese (it was a fluffy multi-god (no-nurgle) list that was infantry heavy with two greater daemons, only one of which was flying), so he resorted to calling a basic rule that's been in the game since 2nd edition cheese
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AlmightyWalrus wrote: I can agree with the above post, Tau are (so far) the Space Wolves of 6th edition (although not as full of one-ups, obviously). It's the Book everyone has to build to deal with the most, and dealing with it isn't that easy.
At least the tau builds are relatively fluffy. The Space Wolf builds that everybody hates (max LF and RP) are made even more annoying because they completely fly in the face of Space Wolf fluff.
hotsauceman1 wrote: Oh you will love this, Cheesecrons.
Warriors all smacked into a skysheild.
On related news my tau army finally got called Cheese by my friend who plays cheesecrons as well.
was pretty boss though taking out 300 points in vehicles with a tool belt commander on a riptide.
I got told by a cron player that the Sweeping Advance rules were the most broken thing in the game after 5 daemonettes wiped out a 20 man silver tide warrior block....he couldn't call the army cheese (it was a fluffy multi-god (no-nurgle) list that was infantry heavy with two greater daemons, only one of which was flying), so he resorted to calling a basic rule that's been in the game since 2nd edition cheese
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AlmightyWalrus wrote: I can agree with the above post, Tau are (so far) the Space Wolves of 6th edition (although not as full of one-ups, obviously). It's the Book everyone has to build to deal with the most, and dealing with it isn't that easy.
At least the tau builds are relatively fluffy. The Space Wolf builds that everybody hates (max LF and RP) are made even more annoying because they completely fly in the face of Space Wolf fluff.
sweeping advance when combined with High Init, and the rules that end combat if no models make base to base after pile in can be massively decisive.
Ailaros wrote:
I've long had a distaste for Tau, and that was even when they were an underpowered army. Just because they've gotten stronger doesn't bother me, nor has it made me suddenly dislike them when I thought they were okay before.
My problem with tau is that they've always been an army whose primary play style exists to shut down their opponent's ability to play the game. That's not only bad, and frustrating, but worse - boring.
To illustrate my point, look at what is basically the anti-tau: foot horde armies. If you show up with a gunline, you will get to shoot the crap out of a foot horde. If you show up with a close combat army, you're all but guaranteed to revel in the glory of wiping out several dozen models with chainswords. If you show up with mobility, you'll get a chance to outmaneuver. Win or lose, horde armies are great to fight against, because you're pretty much guaranteed to at least get a chance to play your army the way it's designed to be played. Hell, even when I tabled people with my power blob army, the most common reply I got was "well, at least I got to kill a lot of guardsmen". They got to feel good about accomplishing something, even when, in the end, I ran right over them.
Tau, traditionally (well, and currently) are the opposite of that. They seem to exist for no other purpose than to make your opponent repack their minis without getting to ever use them.
You brought a gunline? Well, too bad, because I get to move and shoot you and then move back out of LOS, so you can't sit and shoot me. You brought close combat? Well, good luck ever swinging a chainsword, because you're never, EVER going to see an assault phase. You brought a deepstrike army? Say hello to large blast interceptors, and goodbye to your ability to do anything this game.
Win or lose, I'd like to actually PLAY a game of 40k. You know, where we both actually get to do something. Tau have long had the nasty habit of shutting down your opponent's involvement until you're pretty much just playing with yourself...
I am Oh so much on your side here. It's my sentiments exactly.
Half my games are against tau as my group is small, and he always cracks out the "if you get into CC I'm screwed!"
More often than not in games against him I do not manage to get into a single close combat. What does it matter if you're weak in CC if you plow down everything I have trying to get there?
As a GK, I tried countering it once by using an enormous amount of jump troops with flamers and dropping everything onto the field. I held back the jumps (because I can leap 30") so I had almost everything dropping right on top of him. Clearly, I can't charge that first turn, but the idea was to hamper his shooting as much as I could, weather one turn of shooting and then charge.
I had one unit that managed to charge. He destroyed EVERYTHING standing right next to him in one turn. he didn't even try to move away. He just gunlined my whole army.
I would really enjoy actually getting to play the game at some point. Having a close combat where the units are on eachother, and the characters in that unit are trying to gain the upper hand, that sort of stuff is fun.
Just attempting to roll across the board in rhinos, having everything blow up after 6 inches, is not.
My feelings exactly. The closest game ive ever come to beating Tau as a Chaos player ( which is the best melee race in the game right now ) Was simply to assiagn a lascannon + missle launcher helbrute to every squad of guys, and three tri las preds. I had over 15 lascannons and still got my ass kicked. I hate the tau and how it doesnt feel like im playing w40k. I could have more fun playing against myself AND while im ranting id just like to say the new eldar suck balls dont waste your money on Lyandan codex or even the new one for that matter.
Not to mention i was only fighting half his army, just stupid, and i know how to play chaos well.
Im not one to downplay how good Tau are, but the extreme reactions are kinda funny. Its because their favorite chew toy bites back now I guess and people like things to stay the same...when its to their favor.
I play a ton of armies. That way i never have to feel butt hurt about anything BUT prices. Codex's? Meh. Adapt or die.
My feelings exactly. The closest game ive ever come to beating Tau as a Chaos player ( which is the best melee race in the game right now ) Was simply to assiagn a lascannon + missle launcher helbrute to every squad of guys, and three tri las preds. I had over 15 lascannons and still got my ass kicked. I hate the tau and how it doesnt feel like im playing w40k. I could have more fun playing against myself AND while im ranting id just like to say the new eldar suck balls dont waste your money on Lyandan codex or even the new one for that matter.
Not to mention i was only fighting half his army, just stupid, and i know how to play chaos well.
Chaos Daemons are a much better melee Codex than Chaos Space Marines TBH.
Jancoran wrote: Im not one to downplay how good Tau are, but the extreme reactions are kinda funny. Its because their favorite chew toy bites back now I guess and people like things to stay the same...when its to their favor.
I play a ton of armies. That way i never have to feel butt hurt about anything BUT prices. Codex's? Meh. Adapt or die.
How do you "adapt" as a melee-centric army in an edition where every new Codex gets more and more ways to make sure you've got no chance in hell to get into melee in the first place?
hotsauceman1 wrote: That is the weirdest part, he has the tau codex to read(His son plays them).
When HE complained and i mentioned the rules he should know from tau because he has the codex aswell, he insulted me by saying im young and dont work and has no life so i can focus on this game(When i was taking a full load at college no less)
"And you're old and retired and should have all the time in the world"
"I'm not retired."
"No, but if you get to say stuff that is clearly wrong and ignorant, then I do too."
If he has time to stand over your shoulder and complain he clearly has time to pick up the codex.
the shrouded lord wrote: what is ?
Saying something is Cheese - A reference to an overpowered unit or faction in tabletop or video games. Said overpowering isn't due to some loop hole in the rules, bugs/glitches, or development team oversight. No, if something is grade "A" cheese it was designed from the ground up to be that way.
hotsauceman1 wrote: That is the weirdest part, he has the tau codex to read(His son plays them).
When HE complained and i mentioned the rules he should know from tau because he has the codex aswell, he insulted me by saying im young and dont work and has no life so i can focus on this game(When i was taking a full load at college no less)
"And you're old and retired and should have all the time in the world"
"I'm not retired."
"No, but if you get to say stuff that is clearly wrong and ignorant, then I do too."
If he has time to stand over your shoulder and complain he clearly has time to pick up the codex.
Exalted. wish I could do it twice.
Frecklesonfire-15 lascannons "still cant beat tau"...WHY did you have 15 lascannons?! its not efficient, its not effective, and it wont help your "get into melee" desires.
You want to melee tau? get triple defilers to force him to brake formations (and wreck some damage while advancing), get bikers and spawns (nurgle ones usually) to quickly catch any isolated squads, if its not fast and durable, it needs to have area-of-effects to make tau worry. or at least spew enough dakka to eliminate infantry squads.
You claim to know what you are doing, yet by reading what you write its almost like you do the opposite of the right thing to get your plan going.
Jancoran wrote: Im not one to downplay how good Tau are, but the extreme reactions are kinda funny. Its because their favorite chew toy bites back now I guess and people like things to stay the same...when its to their favor.
I play a ton of armies. That way i never have to feel butt hurt about anything BUT prices. Codex's? Meh. Adapt or die.
How do you "adapt" as a melee-centric army in an edition where every new Codex gets more and more ways to make sure you've got no chance in hell to get into melee in the first place?
No point in asking this question online, you know the answer already (hint, its, "Take Allies").
Jancoran wrote: Im not one to downplay how good Tau are, but the extreme reactions are kinda funny. Its because their favorite chew toy bites back now I guess and people like things to stay the same...when its to their favor.
I play a ton of armies. That way i never have to feel butt hurt about anything BUT prices. Codex's? Meh. Adapt or die.
How do you "adapt" as a melee-centric army in an edition where every new Codex gets more and more ways to make sure you've got no chance in hell to get into melee in the first place?
No point in asking this question online, you know the answer already (hint, its, "Take Allies").
Sorry, but if the answer is "play another Codex" it's not much of a help.
Jancoran wrote: Im not one to downplay how good Tau are, but the extreme reactions are kinda funny. Its because their favorite chew toy bites back now I guess and people like things to stay the same...when its to their favor.
I play a ton of armies. That way i never have to feel butt hurt about anything BUT prices. Codex's? Meh. Adapt or die.
How do you "adapt" as a melee-centric army in an edition where every new Codex gets more and more ways to make sure you've got no chance in hell to get into melee in the first place?
No point in asking this question online, you know the answer already (hint, its, "Take Allies").
Sorry, but if the answer is "play another Codex" it's not much of a help.
Think that's what he meant, along with "adapt or die" and "sell your models" it's become one of the only answers you're likely to get these days online.
AlmightyWalrus wrote: How do you "adapt" as a melee-centric army in an edition where every new Codex gets more and more ways to make sure you've got no chance in hell to get into melee in the first place?
But that would be like asking: how to adapt as a no-anti-tank-army in 5th edition transport-hammer?
You change your army so it's not no-anti-tank-army. It really sucks but 6th edition seems to change "adapt" to "shelf" in regard to meele armies.
I'm not trying to be condensending. I like the choppy aspect of 40k and do not agree that it should be mainly shooty based game. Hang on and wait for better times.
This of course ties with OP: Tau are one of the things that kick meele armies (maybe not some specific builds) right in the nuts so it gets hated. It also does that with shooty armies as a bonus.
If your army is a perfect counter to another army don't expect it to be loved. You *should* expect other people not to behave like idiots so the guy in the story is definitely not excused.
I really dont get the "allies" requirement, I already told you that chaos HAS quick melee units.
The only point is to use them right, and deploy right (even setting terrain has strategy these days)
I have already suffered T2 charges from chaos. its not THAT hard to pull off, I mean you CAN get infiltrating bikers!
I am assuming you mean CSM?
Well Imperial guard are allies of conviniance, meaning you can take them and they can score. Keep a blob or two in the back field with some heavy armor to pummel tau while you close in.
Or better yet, fight fire with fire, put some tau in there.
BoomWolf wrote: I really dont get the "allies" requirement, I already told you that chaos HAS quick melee units.
The only point is to use them right, and deploy right (even setting terrain has strategy these days)
I have already suffered T2 charges from chaos. its not THAT hard to pull off, I mean you CAN get infiltrating bikers!
How does that make me sympathize with you? ... a Tau player and all again? I mean after tearing into someone like that just now and all... maybe I should rebuttal that all Tau Players treat cool armies with such disrespect.
Well I have tried to tell people online in several places here on Dakkadakka and on my blog how to ADAPT to this or that. And it is met with the same unimaginative mantras.
But if you REALLY want to know, you gotta start viewing lists in a different way than before.
FOR EXAMPLE (just to nip the inevitable "thats too vague" comment in the bud): Someone asked me how to make a Khornate army work. After a while and some thought, I realize that target saturation (what we also call MSU) at the point of attack, not just in the list, is whats needed. So I recommended a fairly unique solution to try. I doubt he will, but I thought it at least worth testing. Basically TAU are the "problem du jour" that this Khorne guy is worried about. So I explained that if you took three separate mutilators, 3 separate Obliterators and khornate jump troops with rhino screens, you could make one HELL of a target priority problem for a Tau player and waste entire units on basically killing one model...or else.
Dispersing an enemys firepower in such a dramatic and sudden way requires serious balls. And if you're one of those Internetters whose playing time is so sparse that you cant AFFORD to take up what FEW days you get to game with testing, then sure. it probably doesn't sound awesome to spend you're time trying. but if you're like me with a LOT of time available to game and test it sounds like a great thing to test. Ive seen this done, essentially, with Paladins.
i dont need to be told...by the way... that mutilators aren't real great. But what I can tell you is that the Codex DOEs allow you to really overload an enemy with targets all in round 2, and then chop up their Overwatch badly, allowing army to move into its attack position. since Chaos has no drop pods, thsi kind of approach is the second best thing.
Will it work? Dunno. But should you maybe try it...and a HUNDRED ideas like it before you DECLARE melee dead? Probably.
My last two gripes about Tau, after new Broadside killed the one about their mechs being boxy kids toys (Riptide is almost Heldrakey bad though imo), is that they should look more like this:
and the second gripe, the fluff is not grimdark enough. The subtle grimdark is better than no grimdark but in your face evil hopeless grimdark grimdarkness FTW
hotsauceman1 wrote: I have NEVER encounter hate for my SM, yet TAU I do encounter hate for
You mean boring easy mode posterboys for kids, walking toilets with toilets on their arms, loosers dying for rotten corpse?
SM hate is old, wide and strong imo.
Jancoran wrote: I play a ton of armies. That way i never have to feel butt hurt about anything BUT prices. Codex's? Meh. Adapt or die.
I have a few armies too but your quote, that's kind of a crap thing to say. Majority of people own one army each and have valid concerns about GW, meta, balance etc. Adapt or die that's good for computer games not TT game when preparing an army might take months, the meta shifts should not be that drastic.
I guess when GW will sell us millions of flyers and then nerf them to oblivion you will be happy because you spent thousands of $ on multiple armies. GW loves you for sure.
FOR EXAMPLE (just to nip the inevitable "thats too vague" comment in the bud): Someone asked me how to make a Khornate army work. After a while and some thought, I realize that target saturation (what we also call MSU) at the point of attack, not just in the list, is whats needed. So I recommended a fairly unique solution to try. I doubt he will, but I thought it at least worth testing. Basically TAU are the "problem du jour" that this Khorne guy is worried about. So I explained that if you took three separate mutilators, 3 separate Obliterators and khornate jump troops with rhino screens, you could make one HELL of a target priority problem for a Tau player and waste entire units on basically killing one model...or else.
People tend to play wrong against the new tau. This ranges from BA players DSing small power armour units right in their face and wondering about how they couldve killed those to space wolves players that try to outshoot them. Afterwards those players complain about how OP tau are.
One of our local tau players (all of our locals were playing tau before the update too) always fields at least one railgun broadside because some people still identify them as the biggest threat in his army and try to take them out first ... i mean there are different target priority tactics that worked against the new tau ... but doing it the old way will net you a loss.
Jancoran wrote: Well I have tried to tell people online in several places here on Dakkadakka and on my blog how to ADAPT to this or that. And it is met with the same unimaginative mantras.
But if you REALLY want to know, you gotta start viewing lists in a different way than before.
FOR EXAMPLE (just to nip the inevitable "thats too vague" comment in the bud): Someone asked me how to make a Khornate army work. After a while and some thought, I realize that target saturation (what we also call MSU) at the point of attack, not just in the list, is whats needed. So I recommended a fairly unique solution to try. I doubt he will, but I thought it at least worth testing. Basically TAU are the "problem du jour" that this Khorne guy is worried about. So I explained that if you took three separate mutilators, 3 separate Obliterators and khornate jump troops with rhino screens, you could make one HELL of a target priority problem for a Tau player and waste entire units on basically killing one model...or else.
Dispersing an enemys firepower in such a dramatic and sudden way requires serious balls. And if you're one of those Internetters whose playing time is so sparse that you cant AFFORD to take up what FEW days you get to game with testing, then sure. it probably doesn't sound awesome to spend you're time trying. but if you're like me with a LOT of time available to game and test it sounds like a great thing to test. Ive seen this done, essentially, with Paladins.
i dont need to be told...by the way... that mutilators aren't real great. But what I can tell you is that the Codex DOEs allow you to really overload an enemy with targets all in round 2, and then chop up their Overwatch badly, allowing army to move into its attack position. since Chaos has no drop pods, thsi kind of approach is the second best thing.
Will it work? Dunno. But should you maybe try it...and a HUNDRED ideas like it before you DECLARE melee dead? Probably.
Another solution is LRs with Dirge Casters and loaded down with your choice of assault units. Expensive, but very effective against many Tau builds as generally only nova-charged Riptides and the rarely used Hammerheads have long range shots strong enough to penetrate (and even that isn't guaranteed). Missile-sides can't scratch them, the majority of the heavier Tau weapons can only glance them, and if the Khorne player runs them flat out, they will easily be in assault by turn 2 (and the dirge casters coupled with the massive size of a LR hull keeps much of that nasty OW off your back). For added support, run a Rhino or two also with dirge casters in case the LR isn't quite in 6". Heck, throw a Maulerfiend into the mix to cause even more havoc (running behind the LR for cover and/or blocked LOS).
BoomWolf wrote: I really dont get the "allies" requirement, I already told you that chaos HAS quick melee units.
The only point is to use them right, and deploy right (even setting terrain has strategy these days)
I have already suffered T2 charges from chaos. its not THAT hard to pull off, I mean you CAN get infiltrating bikers!
He's Black Templars, not Chaos...
There is the problem then, BT codex is just as outdated and malfunctioning as the old tau codex was. the issue is not Tau being too good, is BT being not good enough.
Once they get patched up, they will be a fair stand. but you really cant say "tau are op" because your army can't handle them, when your army can't really handle anything that is halfway optimized.
I have a few armies too but your quote, that's kind of a crap thing to say. Majority of people own one army each and have valid concerns about GW, meta, balance etc. Adapt or die that's good for computer games not TT game when preparing an army might take months, the meta shifts should not be that drastic.
I really don't think so. GW is trying to make the fiel;d more fair and FAST by issuing codex's at this rate. Its pretty clear (to me) that they have been planning this roll out for a long time and that once the baseline is set, people will be able to adjust more easily with the full panoply of 40K now before them and updated.
But you need to stop blaming GW/Anyone but yourself if you can't adjust tactically. For Sisters of Battle, it took me two models to adjust to 6E. I know they aren't free. Gawd knows *I* know that because I have a large collection. When it took me TWO models, I just dont think thats a HUGE deal in the LONG run when you're going to be playing thegame for the next 20 years (or whatever years YOU intend to).
My Tau needed ZERO models to adjust. I bought two Riptides because they are frigging awesome looking and they are frigging awesome performers as i founc out later, but I could easily play without them and the list I am developing uses zero Riptides (which makes me aesthetically sad, but what can ya do).
IG? I didn't even add models. Chaos? bought one Heldrake. That's it. So when I hear people moaning aboutthis stuff that only OWN one army its falling on deaf ears. Unless you're army collection is miniscule and you are destitute, which ISNT most of us, then my remark stands. But if you're both of those things, then yeah, probably need a new hobby.
hotsauceman1 wrote: I know, when my SM come out i doupt i will have to do anything but buy the codex(and maybe MORE bikes)
Never underestimate their ability to suck money from your wallet. That is primary area where they always made sense was to create a new something (probably something really tall with big guns at about $100) to get the money from the legacy 40k players.
Mywik wrote: One of our local tau players always fields at least one railgun broadside because some people still identify them as the biggest threat in his army and try to take them out first ...
Well, people have all sorts of ideas. My tactic vs Tau is to kill their scoring units and any tanks first, then Pathfinders, then worry about the tough suits. I seldom manage to wipe out all of the suits but that doesn't matter if the Tau can no longer score and I have even one scoring unit camping an objective. And I do this with SoB - many tournaments would give me extra points for being handicapped. But what works against me (little special wargear or tricks) also works for me - there's no one-trick pony for the Tau to shut down.
Land raider spartan with armoured ceramite for regualer SM (its a HS for SM, BT, DA, BA, and SW) or one without for CSM (again HS for CSM).
the rules for this bad boy are on the forge world site under the spartan assault tank.
for 45 pts more than a regular Land Raider it holds 25 models, it had 2 quad lascannons (2 tl shots each). with the armoured ceramite you can ignore melta weapons. Drive this bad boy up and Dump 25 models worth of guys into your enemy.
Mywik wrote: People tend to play wrong against the new tau. This ranges from BA players DSing small power armour units right in their face and wondering about how they couldve killed those to space wolves players that try to outshoot them. Afterwards those players complain about how OP tau are.
Just out of curiosity, what should the BA player do?
I'm late to the party, and haven't read everything so I'd be surprised if no one said this already (in which case I apologise):
My issue with t
Tau is that they play Tauhammer 40k. Well, they force me to play it.
I don't get to use cover.
I don't get to shoot thanks to JSJ.
I don't get to assault either.
Tau remove tactical decisions and force me to slowly move forward to limit JSJ room, while shooting at whatever I can. All the time cover is rather irrelevant, and the only point in using it is to reduce the number of MLs used for BS5.
I don't rant about it, but I generally avoid playing Tau because I don't find it fun.
Yeah fair enough.
Tau do change the rules and force you to play the game their way.
I am not moaning because i have lost against tau (I haven't lost against Tau in the many many games i have played.)
I am moaning because Tau change the game and it becomes not so fun to see that unit you payed for, painted and placed in your army be destroyed because it becomes useless (My Rangers...)
You have to play their game and need to keep moving up to catch them. It's doable for Eldar, but other armies must find it hell.
Fire warriors have long range and high strength. Their low ballistic skill (A needed weakness) is then removed with marker-lights.
They could markerlight a flyer and fire anything at reasonable ballistic skill and they are the only army i can see that are prepped to deal with every situation that can be thrown at them.
May I voice my main complaint about Tau? I realized this while reading the 400th issue of White Dwarf. The paint scheme is too cartoonish. I realize that all of this universe has a cartoon edge present in it, and over the years this has become greater.
But I look at the models, the vehicles and the cool suits and it is all awash in the same color scheme/camo. And this makes everything thing look plastic. Because the barrel of the giant rail gun blends right into the armor of the tank, which is the same color as the sensors, which looks like the light weight infantry armor, which looks like the badass mechs... I would love to someday field an army, but I would have to do something with the standard paint schemes.
And anybody that needs to berate a new army because they can't beat them is a tosser.
Did you play 2nd edition? THAT was cartoonish... Of course Tau weren't present back then, but even if they had been, they'd have been the least cartoony army.
I do wish they'd display more sept colors. Okay, GW, we get it. Tau of the planet T'au are desert colored... Now give the other 9/10ths of the race some face time.
Jancoran wrote: Wanna hear something crazy? a pair of whirlwinds would not be a bad start.
I know. I know. But have you tried it yet? Just give it a shot. hard not to get your points out of them. Can't say it'll never happen but...
I have tried, but their life expectancy is way too short against Tau. They are just too big and cannot be hidden. TFC is so much better, but unavailable to BA. I should get two more drop pods and drop suicide Sternguard + Dreadnought on them, but bubble wrapping is just way too easy.
I suppose it never occurs to GW what gamers can come up with.
Dropping terminators and drop pods can be countered by a lot of bubble wrap... the bubble wrap can be countered by things like thunderfire cannons/whirlwinds.... the lists that have a lot of bubble wrap will have a lot less big scary guns.
The lists that have a lot of big scary Tau Guns and a lot of bubblewrap? Then we're at big points and you should have some big guns of your own as well.
If you failed to bring big guns... that's your problem.
If you failed to bring anything to threaten them up close (i.e. fast/scouted up/infiltrating/in their face assault capable units that can reach en-mass by turn 2; then you are bringing the wrong assault units) On the other hand, if you want to play gunline vs gunline vs one of the best gunline armies with a less good gunline army then I dunno what to tell you.
The mystical Tau powers that seem to be problematic for people seem to be that they got high powered guns (so does a lot of people)
They are accurate ( because of markerlights)
They ignore cover ( because of markerlights)
They have a lot of interceptor/skyfire - Interceptor doesn't get benefits of markerlights (in general. I think the only thing that can fire interceptor markerlights is one of the special commander suits from forgeworld). They also cost a decent amount for skyfire which means less overall volume of fire. Interceptor will not ignore your cover, will be generally at BS 3 so you'll be essentially trolled cause your opponent can roll 4's decently well. Also will need LOS so deep strike accordingly.
Markerlights are generally fairly squishy and vulnerable to things like thunder fire cannons/colossus siege tanks/flamers/heavy bolters/vector strike even. (AP4 heavy bolters for example are good vs most things with a markerlight)
You want to bring shooting that can do things like a thunderfire or whirlwind and profit. Failure to do so is basically not playing to the new "meta" as it were. Most everyone cept nids can ally with someone that can bring that kind of firepower to a list as allies. Even nids have biovores actually so they ust need to change up the lists a little bit and frankly Psychic nids do quite well vs Tau so it's not that big a problem. Telepathy spam is insanely effective at getting some puppetmaster/hallucination rolls and then you can use the guns against the Tau. It's called adapting your tactics. (from SM perspective, see your own individual army codex for various other fun counter options)
with your Whine?".
. I usually bring ~25 to feel really Tau.
idiots so the guy in the story is definitely not excused.
to space wolves players that try to outshoot them. Afterwards those players complain about how 