So with (hopefully) a new Tyranid codex on the horizon and many loyal Tyranid players wishing for change, I'd like to hear some peoples fondest memories of the bugs and also the changes you want to see in the new codex. Like remeber when the Carnifex was good? My those were great times.

So please share your thoughts, and while Robin Cruddace bashing is tons of fun, we wouldn't want to hurt his feelings....much

I don't know if I'd say it's "on the horizon" per se. There's hearsay that the design team knows it's a troubled codex, but there haven't been any rumors about it beyond that.

I've never played as Tyranids, only against them. Some of my most fun games were against Iboshi2 and his nids, when we basically played Starship Troopers with my Marines and his swarms of Gaunts. Nids are always a fun enemy to fight, since you're always killing stuff, even if you're losing.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Brother SRM wrote:
I don't know if I'd say it's "on the horizon" per se. There's hearsay that the design team knows it's a troubled codex, but there haven't been any rumors about it beyond that.

I've never played as Tyranids, only against them. Some of my most fun games were against Iboshi2 and his nids, when we basically played Starship Troopers with my Marines and his swarms of Gaunts. Nids are always a fun enemy to fight, since you're always killing stuff, even if you're losing.

True everything is just hersay but i really think they're going to revamp the Nids and soon.

My biggest problem with tyranids right now is every army is always the same
"hey what you got there? Oh a Flyrant and two Tevigons? boy howdy, never seen that before"

'On the horizon' is a relative term. I think nids are rumoured for end 2013 more likely Q1/2 of 2014. Thats not too bad, I can wait. Provided its a good codex haha!

Id like to see the Nids have a bit more innate adaptability and flexibility in the army. Given the fluff, they should be the most flexible army out there, and lots of builds should be at least viable. Sadly, most builds that arent based around multiple Tervigons and Flyrants dont do too well atm.

Id like Lictors to be able to Infiltrate and/or scout. I think Lictors or at least Deathleaper should be able to assault from Deep Strike (similar to Ymgarls)

Oh, wait, Im not going to start listing all the changes id like because there is already a thread for that. Ill restrain myself.

The problem with nids isn't that they're not competetive. It's that every army is almost the exact same as every other

Flyrants
Tervigons
Termagaunts
Doom of malan'tai
Trygon/s
Hive guard

Sometimes you get some ymgarls or zoanthropes. But you almost never see raveners, biovores, or lichtors....and you literally never see pyrovores for obvious reasons.

Yes thank you!
Flexibility! Like i used to love kitting out my Carnifex in all sorts of way to alwasy keep the flavor fresh. Acid maw, Thorn back, mace tail, tusked.

And on the assulting from deepstrike i couldn't agree more. My genestealers are seeing less and less action

I worry that they will "encourage" variety by nerfing the good units and leaving others as they are, which can be very unhealthy for competitive play (sad days at the tail end of 4th and in 5th edition).

I would like to see melee swarms become effective again. Genestealers need a lot of work, but I don't think the answer is "charge on the turn you arrive". I've always liked the idea that a Genestealer brood arriving through Outflank or Infiltrate gains some sort of survivability buff to reflect their sneaky nature (basically Shroud/Stealth for their first turn), and then after that all they really need is a frag grenade equivalent (why something with those reflexes doesn't just have them automatically is beyond me) and perhaps a minor lethality boost (higher Strength? Rending on 5s?).

Hormagaunts are an interesting one, because in many ways Hormagaunts are absolutely fine. I often run a brood of 30 Toxic Hormagaunts and they perform extremely well assuming I can keep either FNP or a Telekine Dome active on them (or both, ideally). I think to really put them on a level pegging with Termagants, they need some sort of respawn mechanic though, my favourite of which is the Hormagaunt "Brood Nest"; a static multi-wound model with reasonable defences that lets you spawn Hormagaunts somehow (whether it would be Tervigon-like generation or perhaps something closer to replacing destroyed units, I don't know.

Which brings me onto the concept of Tyranids as a "swarm" army. Ideally that would make a comeback in a bigger way. Tervigons area step in the right direction there, but other ways to recycle "lesser" creatures would be very welcome.

I agree, I always field hormegaunts. I miss the fact they're not beasts anymore which i feel really took away some of there speed. Rolling 3D6 and picking the highest just doesn't feel the same, and random charge distance steales it even more. Maybe have a special rule to always allow them to charge 12"?

Longer ranged guns and better BS would be nice as an after thought

Lictors and Zoanthropes able to split apart. Tyrannofexes and Tervigons to get Mycetic Spore for a DT choice. The list of Biomorphs from 4th ed to come back with changes. Ravener to be tougher and have this 'choose one of the following:
heroic intervention.....XXpts per model
burrow attack(or something like that)......XXpts per model
Burrow Attack: Raveners can deep strike into units and make an auto-hit attack(one attack per model) with all CC weapons they have(so RC and ST) and if the enemy takes 2 or more wounds and fail an initiative test they are locked in combat. Oh! and living ammunition to come back and you can get toxin sacs for shooting weapons. ~ Deathmaster Snikch

Ah yes! Living ammunition. That was such a wonderful thing and really added to the flavor of the army. I rememebr when i was first going through the new codex and flipped through it 3 or 4 times getting more and more frantic when i realized living ammunition rule was no where to be found

Hive node Gaunt heads....

done...

Now there's a throw back

Mutations and 2+ save carnifexes.

Come on, try to kill my 2+ T7 fex with regeneration, try to kill all six of them.

Good point. Like why would they take away the ability for a carnifex to have the armoured shell upgrade.

Remember a time when your enemy feared the carnifex? Pepridge farm remembers

 Hyrule Hero wrote:
Good point. Like why would they take away the ability for a carnifex to have the armoured shell upgrade.

Remember a time when your enemy feared the carnifex? Pepridge farm remembers

Cruddace probably thought that so many 2+ save MCs was overpowered.

Fex's, when they used to be cheap.
Broods are nice, but your stuck with them together and can only work in 1 role at a time.

I used to like 3 screamer killers backed up by 3 shooty fex's.
113 points used to get you a screamer killer, and at those points, i'd consider taking 6 in a 2k game now.

Just seems they have doubled in cost for little in return.
Also, now wondering why old one eye costs the same as a bloody land raider, and why his rules dont work together

Just miss fex spam in general i guess.


Also miss warriors that didnt die to fangspam so easily.
Was nice to be able to run a unit of tough warriors that could take a beating and hand one out in return.
New weapons are nice, but i liked the old biomorphs and mutatable genus (sp?) idea.

I just want the previous nids back to be honest, they were pretty spot on for me.

I mean don't get me wrong, some changes were nice with the new edition but if given the choice i'd take my old bugs any day.

And i know everyone will call me blasphemous for this but frankly i think that the Tervigon, while a great model and helps boost armies, has become a crutch for the Tyranids. And makes an army that's suppose to be constantly changing and adapting into a cookie cut army. But then again i guess it's not the poor prego bugs fault but that of HE WHO SHALL NOT BE NAMED

 Hyrule Hero wrote:
Now there's a throw back

Just gonna leave this right here... (with the current rules of synapse I dare say if we could do this swarm armies would be almost auto-win - 64 termagaunts with hive node mutation and 64 hormagaunts with hive node mutation... or more screw it!):

fidel wrote:

 Hyrule Hero wrote:
Now there's a throw back

Just gonna leave this right here... (with the current rules of synapse I dare say if we could do this swarm armies would be almost auto-win - 64 termagaunts with hive node mutation and 64 hormagaunts with hive node mutation... or more screw it!):

Oh yes i'd say the swarms would creat quite the headach for any army. Swarm up the center line, the sides, and then oh hey look at that, outflanking too

Doing some quick math - if we factor in the mutation points from the other addition and use the rules for synapse in this addition...

A 1500 pt army would include (not including elites or HQ or Heavy Support)

98 Hormagaunts (three troop choices)
98 Termagaunts (three troop choices)

That leaves about 300-400 points to play with for 1500 list...

and remember... all that brood is synapse now without needing synapse....

Just imagine the charge rolls on those hormies! Now that would be the swarms the Tyranids should have

2nd edition Nid lists.
Stomp-tastic. You just couldnt get any VPs off of them.

I'd like to see a rule come back where basically Nids never have to take any form of LD based test. Ever. It was pretty much like this in 2nd ed, reasoning being that the Hive Mind was so all encompassing and powerful its minions just didnt give a feck about LD or anything to do with it.
Doubtful it could be implemented under 6ths ruleset but it was pretty epic and imho fit with the fluff really well.

 Ratius wrote:
I'd like to see a rule come back where basically Nids never have to take any form of LD based test. Ever. It was pretty much like this in 2nd ed, reasoning being that the Hive Mind was so all encompassing and powerful its minions just didnt give a feck about LD or anything to do with it.
Doubtful it could be implemented under 6ths ruleset but it was pretty epic and imho fit with the fluff really well.

That's what Synapse is for. Being all encompassing is bad game design - the same reason the old Runes of Warding were bad game design. It becomes a crutch.

Personally, I want to see some flavourful rules thrown in that work.

Like the Carnifex - Living Battering Ram. Rather than +2I that's not going to make any difference ever, how about a Carnifex does D6 Hammer of Wrath hits? Good way to show the absolutely bone crushing charge they're meant to make.

Let Hormagaunts take a Brood Nest that works like the old Without Number. Any time the Hormagaunt brood is reduced below 25% strength, the Tyranid player can remove them (giving any associated victory points to the opponent) and redeploy them from the Brood Nest. Make it a T7, W2, 3+ save model like Artillery so it's tough but not super tough, and give it infiltrate. That will give the Hormagaunt brood a closer jumping off point for respawns, but also give the opponent something to aim for to stop them coming. Maybe even diminishing returns (D3 less per respawn or something) to stop it being abused.

Also, let assault broods take assault grenades (like the old Flesh Hooks from 4th edition).

Right now, the biggest problem with Tyranids is they're bland as gak.

Tyranids was my first army, way back in 2011--well it feels a lot longer. Anyway what I'd like to see:

-Have Warriors actually be playable, maybe even competitive. Either get them T5, EW (might be too powerful then), or reduce their cost so that being IDed by S8+ weapons isn't such a big deal.

-Make carnifex actually good again! When I first started playing Nids I heard all these wonderful tales for 4e about the cheap carnifex that could be kitted for virtually any role. I'd like to see that, and given 6e codices' recent points cost for MCs, it seems we'll get it.

-Give us some form of AA besides flyrants, they just can't cut it against the AV 12 flyers.

-Bring back without number!

-Release the damn Harpy model already!

Venom and Heavy Venom cannon: I love these guns, and modeled it on my first Hive Tyrant and Warrior that I built just caused they looked so awesome (this was before I read the rules for them of course. Please either reduce their cost or get rid of that stupid -1 to the vehicle damage chart rule.

I play orks and I have some very fond memories of running 30 boys into hordes of gaunts. When both players reach for handful of dice you know its going to be fun . Also I feel you pain, a lot of Ork units are completely uncompetitive and I'm looking forward to a revamping.

One of my personal 40k dreams is to re-enact the Iyanden battle.

Also, a cool rule to have for gaunts and gants would be something like:
Corpse Wall-When all models in this unit die withing X inches of each other, the player can place a wall token that grants a 4+ cover save to those behind it.

After all is said and done, the Tyranids will have to have a balanced codex since it can't actually take any allies so if it's to be any fun at all to play, it will have to have some awesome internal balance. Here's hoping the pyrovore for example will get fixed somehow. Maybe scout and torrent flamer or something?

Will be interested to see what we'll end up with.

Lictors - Make them feared again. They get kicked in the junk harder and harder every dex, and it's criminal considering how cool of a model and fluff that they have.

In general, give us a reason to take the T4 multi-wound Nids (without nerfing the crap out of the MCs and hordes in the process).

It's funny how so many of the changes we want to see are rules that already existed!

Ironic really eh?
All we need is the previous book back with the new units thrown into it.
Obviously FMC's and such would be updated with the new edition, but thats a given.

Would be a pretty decent book to be honest and wouldnt lack anything as badly as the new one does.

Just need to make sure this guy doesn't get his hands on it.


I here he's working on the new one with Kelly so maybe Kelly will give him something shiny to play with while he does the really work

 Hyrule Hero wrote:
Just need to make sure this guy doesn't get his hands on it.


I here he's working on the new one with Kelly so maybe Kelly will give him something shiny to play with while he does the really work

Urgh, Cruddace. I like him far, far less than Ward. Ward writes fun rules, Kelly writes fun fluff, Vetock is a new up and coming author but I like what he's put out so far, but Cruddace? No. A thousand times no.

Hmmm, where to start...

-Make Carnifexs's cheaper.
-Make the base cost of a Tervigon cheaper with mastery levels and other options available as add-ons.
-Introduce another Anti Air option or revamp the Harpy.
-Give Genestealers and Ymgarls grenades so they don't go last when charging into terrain.

Make some rules actually work.

-Like whats the point of a Lictor that can't start on the board but gives you a bonus to reserve rolls the turn after he comes in but which time you have all of your reserves in anyways...
-Trygon tunnel... again, let me use if the same turn the Trygon comes in.

We've seen what births Gants, what about what births Gargoyles, Genestealers, Trygons lol.

Stealth army wide for the smaller gribblies.
Maybe some special rule that lets you take wounds from the back of the unit rather than the front?

I'd like for Lictors to actually be good at you know...ambushing?

Because right now they just pop up, have a silly look on their face, and then get toasted by flamers. Which is the opposite of an ambush.

 Kain wrote:
I'd like for Lictors to actually be good at you know...ambushing?

Because right now they just pop up, have a silly look on their face, and then get toasted by flamers. Which is the opposite of an ambush.

This is the very reason my once proud lictor model just collecting dust. I love the model, i love the fluff, i want to love putting him in my army again!

Things I'd like to see in a new Tyranid Codex:

1.) Carnifexes - Make them good again! When a necron player can pay 50 points for a 3W t6 MC (spyders) I sob at the thought of my 160 point carnifex.
2.) Warriors - Give them T5 or Immunity to ID from 2x Str like in the 4th ed codex. Same goes for all models on the Warrior-sized frame (lictors, raveners, shrikes).
3.) Assaulting from reserves - Make it a tyranid army rule, like Battle Focus or Supporting fire. Tyranids more than any other army rely on assault to damage the enemy - not being able to do so efficiently has killed genestealer lists.
4.) Frag grenades - just give them to us already. At least genestealers.
5.) Doom of Malant'ai - Keep him in the book, but make his spirit leech only during the tyranid shooting phase. He's just too broken at the moment.

Other than that, off the top of my head, i'm pretty satisfied with the codex overall. A couple new units (Cerebore, dominatrix?) and a kit for existing units (Spore Pods, Harpies) would be great too, but just fix the core problems with the codex and everything else will be icing.

I guess everyone can agree we want to see the carnifex back in action with better/more upgrade options but not costing a crud load of points.

And our assault based army should be better equipped at assaulting

One thing i'd like to really see bumped up a bit, especially with the (rumored) edition of a harpy model, would be spore mines. They seem like they have so much potential to be way more of a pain in the ass to the enemy then they are now. Orbital deployment can make these little guys really krunk up an enemy armies movement

I'd like to see some decent Anti-Air that isn't called a Winged Tyrant with 2 sets of TL BL Devs. It's just boring and I foolishly assembled my Hive Tyrant as the Swarmlord. I want to use it and not get raped by Fliers.

I'm not too bothered about Carnifexes being great again, but maybe that's a selfish thing, because I don't own any. However, Lictors and Genestealers I would love to see made viable, since I love the idea, fluff and aesthetics of the models.

On the subject of Cruddace, I actually don't mind the guy. I really liked this Nid Codex back in 5th edition. It was really fun to play in my opinion and I had some good success with it. It was the transition to 6th, and the addition of Overwatch and Fliers and the change in Outflank rules, that really screwed over the Nids.

 The Shadow wrote:
On the subject of Cruddace, I actually don't mind the guy. I really liked this Nid Codex back in 5th edition. It was really fun to play in my opinion and I had some good success with it. It was the transition to 6th, and the addition of Overwatch and Fliers and the change in Outflank rules, that really screwed over the Nids.

My problem is it just feels rushed. Like they gave the project to him and like a kid not wanting to do his home work (a well balanced, thought out, and written codex) and just wanting to go and play XBOX (work on IG instead) He rushed through it just so he'd have something to throw on the teachers desk. The synegery that a Tyranid army depends on just doesn't feel present in the codex itself. And would it kill him to write a few more stories where the Tyranids actually win!

I hear he did great work on the Daemons codex when paired with Kelly so i'm still holding out hope for him yet. Maybe the two really pick up where they other falls and maybe...just maybe, we'll get some sweet buggy gold in the months to come

 The Shadow wrote:
I'd like to see some decent Anti-Air that isn't called a Winged Tyrant with 2 sets of TL BL Devs. It's just boring and I foolishly assembled my Hive Tyrant as the Swarmlord. I want to use it and not get raped by Fliers.

I'm not too bothered about Carnifexes being great again, but maybe that's a selfish thing, because I don't own any. However, Lictors and Genestealers I would love to see made viable, since I love the idea, fluff and aesthetics of the models.

On the subject of Cruddace, I actually don't mind the guy. I really liked this Nid Codex back in 5th edition. It was really fun to play in my opinion and I had some good success with it. It was the transition to 6th, and the addition of Overwatch and Fliers and the change in Outflank rules, that really screwed over the Nids.

I've never liked the fact that TL-devours is the optimal build for both Tyrants and Carnifex. It just doesn't seem fluffy that these massive creatures would be best at taking out infantry/light vehicles. Its why I really hope the Venom cannon and Barbed Strangler become good again...

The venom cannon needs to not be a blast anymore. Worst idea ever

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:
I'd like to see some decent Anti-Air that isn't called a Winged Tyrant with 2 sets of TL BL Devs. It's just boring and I foolishly assembled my Hive Tyrant as the Swarmlord. I want to use it and not get raped by Fliers.

I'm not too bothered about Carnifexes being great again, but maybe that's a selfish thing, because I don't own any. However, Lictors and Genestealers I would love to see made viable, since I love the idea, fluff and aesthetics of the models.

On the subject of Cruddace, I actually don't mind the guy. I really liked this Nid Codex back in 5th edition. It was really fun to play in my opinion and I had some good success with it. It was the transition to 6th, and the addition of Overwatch and Fliers and the change in Outflank rules, that really screwed over the Nids.

I've never liked the fact that TL-devours is the optimal build for both Tyrants and Carnifex. It just doesn't seem fluffy that these massive creatures would be best at taking out infantry/light vehicles. Its why I really hope the Venom cannon and Barbed Strangler become good again...

I really miss the S8 large blast barbed stranglers and the S5 or S6 blast deathspitters.....

I also miss the living ammunition rule. Tyranids still have their fair share of re-rolls but twin linked devourers that re-roll to wound were just inherently scary.

The problem with Tyranid MC's is they're across the board expensive, which is a symptom of the books writer. Cruddace is a Fantasy writer, and Tyranids were only his second foray into 40k. In Fantasy, Monsters are expensive. Monsters with T6 are rare and even more expensive. Monsters with T6, W4 and a 3+ save? You're looking at some hefty points. This is because Monsters counter in Fantasy is Cannons, and while in a few armies you're guaranteed to face them, overall they're not super common. So Monsters are expensive to make up to the rarity of their counter.

In 40k, almost every squad can pack MC killing power, whether it's a close combat weapon on a sergeant, a meltagun or missile launcher on a squad member, or all of the above. So he priced Tyranid MC's to make them less common like Fantasy, but didn't do enough testing to realize MC's counters are practically everywhere in 40k.

The best things to happen to Tyranids in 6th is either Ward or Kelly getting the book. Kelly loves the army, has a massive Tyranid army himself, and has said a few times he had big ideas for Tyranids in 6th. Ward, while his fluff is terrible, at least writes good army lists which tend to have multiple viable competitive builds, stack up to other books well and don't suffer too much in edition changes.

Cruddace writes terrible fluff, and his army list design methodology is 'throw as much gak at the wall and hope enough sticks'.

Eldar got the ability to run and shoot. Tyranids should get the ability to run and assault.

That army-wide rule would probably make Hormagaunts competitive.

Genestealers should get Stealth.

Venomthrope aura should confer Shrouded so that it stacks with other sources of cover.

Stupid Lictor and Trygon reserve option rules should be fixed.

Other than that, I hope they do something fluffy and creative with the book. I think we all want something balanced with lots of internal balance and options, and something that can compete with other 6th ed. books.

Battlefocus really did open the floodgates, didn't it?

I can see a variety of rule-breaking to make Tyranids feel fluffy. The ability to assault from reserves would help reinforce the 'they're all around us' feeling. Being able to run and assault (if only when in range of synapse) would reinforce the idea of the hive mind driving them forward with little heed to their personal wellbeing, as would FNP when inside synapse (though both would be too much).

It'll be interesting to see what they end up doing for Tyranids. The studio has said they know about the current attitude towards their once best selling xenos line.

Just going back to the 4th ed book, and tweaking from there would do for me. Add the newer models, add more biomorphs etc. I bloody loved that book, pretty much abandoned my nids with the current one. Tis a shame really.

rollawaythestone wrote:
Eldar got the ability to run and shoot. Tyranids should get the ability to run and assault.

Woah...this means that hormagaunts would reliably get 21" threat ranges.

Move, Run(3D6 for run, fleet lets you individually reroll dice), Assault (2d6 with individually reroll dice)

 ductvader wrote:

rollawaythestone wrote:
Eldar got the ability to run and shoot. Tyranids should get the ability to run and assault.

Woah...this means that hormagaunts would reliably get 21" threat ranges.

Move, Run(3D6 for run, fleet lets you individually reroll dice), Assault (2d6 with individually reroll dice)

Beasts/Cavalry have this threat range currently - hormagaunts belong in that category, as far as fast foot assault units go. They are along with gargoyles, the fastest of the small tyranid genera.

Personally...I believe Waaugh is going to allow orks to do this old fleet for a single turn...whenever they finally get a book.

 tetrisphreak wrote:

 ductvader wrote:

rollawaythestone wrote:
Eldar got the ability to run and shoot. Tyranids should get the ability to run and assault.

Woah...this means that hormagaunts would reliably get 21" threat ranges.

Move, Run(3D6 for run, fleet lets you individually reroll dice), Assault (2d6 with individually reroll dice)

Beasts/Cavalry have this threat range currently - hormagaunts belong in that category, as far as fast foot assault units go. They are along with gargoyles, the fastest of the small tyranid genera.

Hormagaunts are no lnger beasts like they were in past editions though. They're just infantry now. Which is one of the things i cursed along with many others

I know they're no longer beasts - they should be. The leaping biomorph should return as well.

Ah, yes i couldn't agree more. Hormagaunts are one of my favorate units and to have them crippled by lacking the speed they deserve just brings a tear to my eye.

And stealers...if stealers are no longer the outflank kings the need a broodlord primaris power for some kind of endurance or stealth...or speed.

 PhrycePhyre wrote:
One of my personal 40k dreams is to re-enact the Iyanden battle.

Also, a cool rule to have for gaunts and gants would be something like:
Corpse Wall-When all models in this unit die withing X inches of each other, the player can place a wall token that grants a 4+ cover save to those behind it.

Imho that seems a bit OP even if it was just 2" inches because as soon as you get within your opponents deployment and hes a shooting army hes kinda screwed. If it was 6+ or 5+ slightly more fair and if they wall was automatically destroyed by grenades and have 2 wounds for purposes of Flamers, but then it gets too complicated. Cool idea in theory but not in practice.

Anyway, I would love for fexes to be like they were and Synapse Creatures to be a bit more expensive and have Eternal Warrior. I want Lictors to be able to charge when they come on and also their cover save counts as invulnerable and they have stealth and can be upgraded for like 5pts or 7pts(oh yeah bring back the weird ass points costs) to get shrouded as well. Zoanthrope, Lictors and Venomthropes should be able to break apart. The Swarmlord should be able to purchase 'elite' Warrior Bodyguards (like he had along with his TG at the Battle of Macragge) and they are slightly tougher and better than usual ones.

More units able to get Frag Spines or things similar to them.

 Deathmaster Snikch wrote:

 PhrycePhyre wrote:
One of my personal 40k dreams is to re-enact the Iyanden battle.

Also, a cool rule to have for gaunts and gants would be something like:
Corpse Wall-When all models in this unit die withing X inches of each other, the player can place a wall token that grants a 4+ cover save to those behind it.

Imho that seems a bit OP even if it was just 2" inches because as soon as you get within your opponents deployment and hes a shooting army hes kinda screwed. If it was 6+ or 5+ slightly more fair and if they wall was automatically destroyed by grenades and have 2 wounds for purposes of Flamers, but then it gets too complicated. Cool idea in theory but not in practice.

Anyway, I would love for fexes to be like they were and Synapse Creatures to be a bit more expensive and have Eternal Warrior. I want Lictors to be able to charge when they come on and also their cover save counts as invulnerable and they have stealth and can be upgraded for like 5pts or 7pts(oh yeah bring back the weird ass points costs) to get shrouded as well. Zoanthrope, Lictors and Venomthropes should be able to break apart. The Swarmlord should be able to purchase 'elite' Warrior Bodyguards (like he had along with his TG at the Battle of Macragge) and they are slightly tougher and better than usual ones.

More units able to get Frag Spines or things similar to them.

+1 to cover if between a unit and an enemy...exactly as if it were an intervening unit...that would be balanced...it could also last for just 1 game turn.

I actually have these as I made my Aegis defense lines out of piles of dead gants and gaunts

We don't want tervigons going down in points. They're a bargain already.

We just want some serious assault action. More running, more assaulting from reserves, so we can have some good old carnage.

A narrow set of options in 5th became narrower (but arguably more effectivg thanks to psychic powers) in 6th. So we want more of that bugs-creeping-out-of-the-walls action, with lictors, raveners and genestealers doing the creeping.

I'd be alright allowing Tyranids to charge after running in synapse if they allowed Overwatch to be at BS2 instead of snap shots to confer the sheer number of things bearing down on you increased your chances of hitting *something* whilst firing overwatch.

I know it seems a bit OP if nids were able to run and assault but overwatching at BS 2 would just counter it. I mean yeah hitting on 5's but seeing how gaunts are incredibly weak they would get shredded, I mean my gaunts still get shredded by Ork shooting!

additionally, you could allow certain units in tyranids to "deep strike" via popping out of terrain features. That'd be kinda interesting I think.

Just an implementation off the top of my head: Nominate a piece of terrain to deep strike from. Roll a scatter dice minus the 2d6. Direct hit means the unit comes out of that terrain and may deploy either inside, on top, or adjacent to (in B2B contact with) the terrain in question. An arrow means draw a line along that arrow from the center of the initial nominated terrain and should that line come into contact with any other piece of terrain, the player must deep strike, following the previously mentioned deployment options, from that secondary terrain. This represents tyranid swarms having infested the battlefield prior to the joining of battle.


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 Deathmaster Snikch wrote:
I know it seems a bit OP if nids were able to run and assault but overwatching at BS 2 would just counter it. I mean yeah hitting on 5's but seeing how gaunts are incredibly weak they would get shredded, I mean my gaunts still get shredded by Ork shooting!

Here's the problem though, this means that' reliably, a tyranid player could get into contact from nearly 24 inches away if they have a 12 inch movement like any are asking for here for assault troop units in the thread.. This means anything with a 24 in range gun is going to face a lot of problems with facing tyranids because of the sheer amount of units on the field and the overlap a zone that big entails. It's not that they're so difficult on their own to overcome that big of a distance, but you're essentially saying that a gaunt can match a fast skimmer tank moving flat out in speed, and I think that's a little much.

Here's the problem though, this means that' reliably, a tyranid player could get into contact from nearly 24 inches away if they have a 12 inch movement like any are asking for here for assault troop units in the thread.. This means anything with a 24 in range gun is going to face a lot of problems with facing tyranids because of the sheer amount of units on the field and the overlap a zone that big entails. It's not that they're so difficult on their own to overcome that big of a distance, but you're essentially saying that a gaunt can match a fast skimmer tank moving flat out in speed, and I think that's a little much.

How fluffy would that be? Hoards of gribbles that can't be killed fast enough swarming towards you. I also think it would mean that the assault options in the codex might actually be used instead of the typical Tervigon/Termagant spam. This would give Hormagants an actual reason to be taken, and give a needed boost to Genestealers, Raveners, etc. Why is being able to Run / Assault any more overpowered than Eldar being about to Run / Shoot?

I see being able to run/assault fit the tyranids.

I was looking through the new apocalypse book, to see
if maybe there were some hints for what the next tyranid codex might see in it's pages, and I have a couple suppositions based on what's in it.

1.) A divine intervention that allows all tyranids on the table to run, shoot, and assault (if they're fleet) on the same turn. maybe this would translate into a battle-focus type ability in the next codex.
2.) Vanguard infestation - currently reads that genestealers in the formation get to deploy via chameleonic skin, like lictors. Well right now that's trash, because they can't assault when they pop up like that -- if chameleonic skin allows assault in the next book, that apoc formation suddenly makes sense for the scale of apoc games. (also note that it can't appear until after a break, so usually turn 3 or later before your "vanguard" even shows up -- not assaulting further ruins the fluff of that one).

Because you can't tie up a unit in several rounds of combat with shooting.

I like the fluff of it, I like the idea of it, and I agree that Tyranid needs some way to be able to spring forward, so to speak, but I think that this needs to come from reserve manipulation, directional pressure from multiple angles, and other factors outside of outright speed.

The problem with that huge of an assault range is that, whereas shooting can be exchanged and tactics can be utilized to position, reposition, and so forth, assault locks a unit in place and in the combat until it's resolved, which heavily bogs down the opposing army. I'm not saying this is a bad thing in and of itself, but the sheer volume of units you'd give this capability would mean tyranid units could reliability shut down any foot army not through clever maneuver or stealthy deployment and ambushes, but by simply rushing everything. Yes, it's fluffy, but it doesn't leave much room for gameplay if you get my meaning.

rollawaythestone wrote:

Here's the problem though, this means that' reliably, a tyranid player could get into contact from nearly 24 inches away if they have a 12 inch movement like any are asking for here for assault troop units in the thread.. This means anything with a 24 in range gun is going to face a lot of problems with facing tyranids because of the sheer amount of units on the field and the overlap a zone that big entails. It's not that they're so difficult on their own to overcome that big of a distance, but you're essentially saying that a gaunt can match a fast skimmer tank moving flat out in speed, and I think that's a little much.

How fluffy would that be? Hoards of gribbles that can't be killed fast enough swarming towards you. I also think it would mean that the assault options in the codex might actually be used instead of the typical Tervigon/Termagant spam. This would give Hormagants an actual reason to be taken, and give a needed boost to Genestealers, Raveners, etc. Why is being able to Run / Assault any more overpowered than Eldar being about to Run / Shoot?

I agree 100%. I think that the ability to run and asault would be a wonderful addition to not only support the fluff but also make an assault based army good at assault. I don't think they would be OP becasue they still need to get into assault and there's a lot of guns out there that kill the bugs just fine. Why should an army have great guns and not have to worry about assault when a great assault army ALWAYS has to worry about guns?

Given the fate of the bloodcrusher and carnifex in their latest books I expect Tervigons and Zoans to take a hard hit.

I also expect however, that the Pyrovore will metamorphisize into the single most overpowered unit in the history of forever bringing woe and misery to all who mocked it before.

If you want to be able to run and assault, I don't think I'd also ask for 12 inch movement/beasts.

Again, you guys are talking about the fluff aspects of overwhelming numbers mitigating the assault defenses of other armies. I am not disagreeing with you *in regards to the fluff*, nor am I saying that tyranids should be stuck in the hole they have now.

But you have to understand assault, as it is in this game, by it's nature, carries certain benefits to it simply by existing: Locking down an enemy's movement, not being shot at, not allowing him to shoot out of assault. It creates conditions which alter the game as it is *played* significantly. Having a huge, 24inch-ish assault range just makes it too hard for anyone not loading everything into a "mehtahl boxxiz" to do anything about being swarmed.

Yes Tyranids should swarm. It's what they do. It's who they are. Long live the swarm.

But you've gotta give people a way to counteract that swarm. having several cheap, easy choices for troops with huge assault ranges doesn't leave much wiggle room for anything that isn't mechanized.

deathmagiks wrote:
If you want to be able to run and assault, I don't think I'd also ask for 12 inch movement/beasts.

Again, you guys are talking about the fluff aspects of overwhelming numbers mitigating the assault defenses of other armies. I am not disagreeing with you *in regards to the fluff*, nor am I saying that tyranids should be stuck in the hole they have now.

But you have to understand assault, as it is in this game, by it's nature, carries certain benefits to it simply by existing: Locking down an enemy's movement, not being shot at, not allowing him to shoot out of assault. It creates conditions which alter the game as it is *played* significantly. Having a huge, 24inch-ish assault range just makes it too hard for anyone not loading everything into a "mehtahl boxxiz" to do anything about being swarmed.

Yes Tyranids should swarm. It's what they do. It's who they are. Long live the swarm.

But you've gotta give people a way to counteract that swarm. having several cheap, easy choices for troops with huge assault ranges doesn't leave much wiggle room for anything that isn't mechanized.

Some others have suggested making some units Beasts, thus giving them the 12 inch move. I am advocating just giving out the Army-wide rule that everyone can run and assault. I agree, making things Beasts AND giving them Run/Assault would be too nasty without points increases to accompany them, which I wouldn't want. Although, things that are already Beasts in the Codex, like Raveners, would get a nice little boost - making them an actual option when compared to Gargoyles.

rollawaythestone wrote:

deathmagiks wrote:
If you want to be able to run and assault, I don't think I'd also ask for 12 inch movement/beasts.

Again, you guys are talking about the fluff aspects of overwhelming numbers mitigating the assault defenses of other armies. I am not disagreeing with you *in regards to the fluff*, nor am I saying that tyranids should be stuck in the hole they have now.

But you have to understand assault, as it is in this game, by it's nature, carries certain benefits to it simply by existing: Locking down an enemy's movement, not being shot at, not allowing him to shoot out of assault. It creates conditions which alter the game as it is *played* significantly. Having a huge, 24inch-ish assault range just makes it too hard for anyone not loading everything into a "mehtahl boxxiz" to do anything about being swarmed.

Yes Tyranids should swarm. It's what they do. It's who they are. Long live the swarm.

But you've gotta give people a way to counteract that swarm. having several cheap, easy choices for troops with huge assault ranges doesn't leave much wiggle room for anything that isn't mechanized.

Some others have suggested making some units Beasts, thus giving them the 12 inch move. I am advocating just giving out the Army-wide rule that everyone can run and assault. I agree, making things Beasts AND giving them Run/Assault would be too nasty without points increases to accompany them, which I wouldn't want.

Hear, hear. Never was i a proponent of giving 12" move AND run/assault to bugs, i think one or the other would suit just fine. I think having most infantry move 6" and then get 'battle focus' for assault would be balanced and fluffy. the one or 2 units with a 12" move and 'battle focus' would be point costed appropriately, or given other nerfs to compensate for their speed. Look at seekers of slaanesh - 12" move, d6+6" run (with fleet). The downside is they are T3 with a 5++ save only. Speed does come at a cost.

Did anyone have an opinion on my terrain deep striking idea?

Additionally, I'm ok with run and assault if it's 6 inch move.
Maybe even have a purchasable upgrade that allowed that army rule to be "upgraded" to allow for assaulting from reserves/deep strike. That way, you could limit it to units that would truly take advantage of/justify the price of this upgrade.

Oh yes, making them beasts AND the run/assault would be too much.

So we've talked a lot about swarms but What about MC. I mean aside from wanting a cheaper carnifex with more options, what other change would people like to see with the big bad bugs? I believe some one mentioned making the "living batering ram" special rule a little better.

What else?


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deathmagiks wrote:
Did anyone have an opinion on my terrain deep striking idea?

Additionally, I'm ok with run and assault if it's 6 inch move.
Maybe even have a purchasable upgrade that allowed that army rule to be "upgraded" to allow for assaulting from reserves/deep strike. That way, you could limit it to units that would truly take advantage of/justify the price of this upgrade.

I think that's a good idea. Maybe you really need those infiltrating Genestealers to get ito combat quickly and so could pay for the upgrade. But maybe you want them just to put pressure from the rear (try not to laugh) or line breaker

My brother thinks Eldar aren't bull hes so wrong, D-Scythes are so wrong, their almost invincible Wave Serpents are so wrong!

 Deathmaster Snikch wrote:
My brother thinks Eldar aren't bull hes so wrong, D-Scythes are so wrong, their almost invincible Wave Serpents are so wrong!

To deal with D-scythes via assault first sacrifice something you don't care about to the distortion flames, then charge something else in.

They can only overwatch once after all.

As for waveserpents, Hive guard are actually good there, but in a TAC list I'd still go with Zoans and dakkarants.

 Deathmaster Snikch wrote:
My brother thinks Eldar aren't bull hes so wrong, D-Scythes are so wrong, their almost invincible Wave Serpents are so wrong!

Yeah my buddy plays Eldar, when the new codex came out i was swearing up and down every turn and questioning what horrible deity would grant space elves such awesomeness and leave the Tyranids in the dust

 Deathmaster Snikch wrote:
My brother thinks Eldar aren't bull hes so wrong, D-Scythes are so wrong, their almost invincible Wave Serpents are so wrong!

Not... really sure where this came from lol,

but WS are not invincible. Especially against Tyranid, who have hive guard who can ignore cover and jink saves lol. D-Scythes aren't wrong. They're very powerful, true, but that comes from their low AP value. They're only str 4 flamers, no stronger than conventional flamers, and Eldar does not have easy access to flamers outside the odd fire dragon exarch, Wraith lords sporting them and choosing to use them over scatter lasers for some reason instead of staying at range from things that have poison weapons and ignore it's high toughness, or storm guardians who, while cool, essentially melt when starred at harshly enough.

deathmagiks wrote:

 Deathmaster Snikch wrote:
My brother thinks Eldar aren't bull hes so wrong, D-Scythes are so wrong, their almost invincible Wave Serpents are so wrong!

Not... really sure where this came from lol,

but WS are not invincible. Especially against Tyranid, who have hive guard who can ignore cover and jink saves lol. D-Scythes aren't wrong. They're very powerful, true, but that comes from their low AP value. They're only str 4 flamers, no stronger than conventional flamers, and Eldar does not have easy access to flamers outside the odd fire dragon exarch, Wraith lords sporting them and choosing to use them over scatter lasers for some reason instead of staying at range from things that have poison weapons and ignore it's high toughness, or storm guardians who, while cool, essentially melt when starred at harshly enough.

The distortion rule makes up for that S4. But if you're playing Tyranids and can't absorb some losses you should rethink your list a bit.

We also pay quite a premium for those d-scythes and those serpents aren't very cheap either lol. At least as far as transports go. That said, I love my serpents haha.

It's the fact he kills all of my Tyrant Guard with Dark Reapers because Star-Shot Missiles are bull . And the fact Guardians and any shuriken weapon will take down terminators and Armoured Shell units down incredibly quickly. Despite the rules being new he moans when I question the book and he agrees nids are weaker than other armies so he should not bitch when I say the new Eldar are quite OP against an army that worked best in 5th edition.


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Also who cares if you have to pay 15 points for a S4 AP 2 Flamer that cause Instant Death on 6's! and the fact pretty much every Eldar weapon now causes something stupid on a roll of a 6 and with Laser Lock, Phil Kelly should of designed it better imo. Not Oh look as my basic guardian squad fires twenty shots into your terminators and rips them apart

Living battering ram should be d3 or d6 impact hits instead of what it is now.

Edit - I like the idea of d3 impact hits stock, but upgradeable to d6 with the tusked biomorph.

First of all, It sounds like you're upset because his very expensive unit, with a very expensive upgrade, is killing your poorly protected and poorly positioned unit. That's not BS, that's you having problems with how you're playing what you're playing.

Yes, Bladestorm is a great rule for us to have and hard rule for you to handle, but you understand the units you're mentioning have a 12 inch gun? If you cannot exploit that I think you're using your movement and mobility incorrectly. Guardians are a T3 5+ save unit. You might have to weather 1 round of shooting from them if he's fortunate enough to get them into range and you're slow enough to allow him to, but the second that happens they're toast.

Where's your venomthrope for your cover save? Where's your Hive Guard for the massive cannon shots they have that ignore LOS and Cover and Jink? Where's your shielding units to stand in front of your important ones and soak up shots? Where's your feel no pain?

What you're doing right now is not asking for help finding a solution to something you're having difficulty handling. You're complaining. I do it sometimes too (Mindshackle Scarabs anyone?), but I can tell you right now from experience, you're not going to find a solution like that. Nor are you going to improve as a player.


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Anyways, back on topic.

Has anyone considered Biovore's being able to lauch Flakk spore mines? Similar to Scourges from Starcraft?

The Carnifex wasn't good in 4th edition, it was TOO good. 115 point monstrous creature gun boats that you can field 6 of? Absurd. Not really the role of a Carnifex either by tradition or fluff.

The current one is a tad expensive, but broods of 2 are showing up in successful tournament lists. For 190 points, you get the same shooting output of a 285 point Flyrant, along with something that more easily crushes vehicles and ID's infantry in combat.

The Raveners used to only have game in 5th because of the move+run+assault. Now they move, run, and get shot. Trygons are the same. Genestealers used to Outflank and charge with perfect timing. Now they Outflank and get shot because they can't assault. Or they run up the field and get targeted. Lictors have been terrible since 2nd edition.

The entire army is too reliant on Biomancy for psykers - which it will likely retain access to with a new book. I would like to see them get some more unique psychic abilities, as well as their own Warlord table as the other armies have gotten.

I don't want them to have the same ability to control the shooting phase like Tau or IG; or the same ability to zip around the field like Eldar/Dark Eldar; or dominate the air like Necrons can. Tyranids should be unique to what they do, with some well-rounded options. Oh, and NO ALLIES. Tyranids don't ally with anyone, and I hope that doesn't change with a new book.

Variety is key. Tyranids should be flexible, not mono-build. In 4th edition, it was 6 Carnifex and 2 Hive Tyrants. The end. In 5th, they were just awful. In 6th, it's Flyrants, Tervigons, and season to taste. Same builds over and over. They also have easily the greatest number of completely useless and self-defeating units of any army. Give the Pyrovore a role that makes sense, and move it out of the Elites slot. Maybe an upgrade/addition to a Warriors or Gaunts squad?

From a Force Organization and modeling standpoint, the Tyranids need more of their stuff moved into swarm style broods and plastic kits, respectively. Too many 1-3 models per brood choices, and too many single model clampacks. Tyrant Guard/Hive Guard could easily be a plastic box of 3 with options to make both. Another could be made for Venomthropes and Zoanthropes. That would even save a little money. Raveners have new models, but a re-cut to make a box of 5 (like Wraithguard) would be fair.

I know people will cry blasphemy here, but I don't want the Hive Tyrant to have the twin-linked Brainleech Worms option anymore. Heck, the pieces didn't even come in the new plastic kit. Save the dakka for beasts like Tyrannofexes (thus giving them more of a purpose), and the fighter/bomber plane option for Harpies. The Hive Tyrant should be a field commander with incredible CC and psychic prowess. Convert the Carnifex to more of an armored battering ram, lower he and the T-fex by about 25 points each, and suddenly each monster in the army has a unique role instead of just mimicking one another.

That's what I want: tough choices in army list creation. I want to be rewarded for taking beasts that handle a specific task really well, and using them in a way that maximizes their specialty. I'm glad 6th edition has moved away from giving every unit the option to be well-rounded at everything. I don't want that, because it leads to autopilot list creation, and lots of spam. 6th edition has rewarded playing the mission and list flexibility, and I hope that continues with our book.

I want less whining when something changes. I promise you Shadow in the Warp will get changed, and it will seem weaker. But what we can't do is compare what it will do in the 6th edition book to what it did/does in the 5th edition book. It will be a fully-fledged 6th edition army competing against other fully-fledged 6th edition armies, so the rules are just an adjustment, not a nerf. GW has made an effort to focus on and diversify psychic powers in this edition, without making them Purple Sun OP. In light of this, we will see less and less of an army just being able to say "no" to psychic powers. Hence the reason Runes of Warding was changed with the new Eldar codex. Furthermore, the new codices have all received enough juicy additions to more than make up for an apparent nerf, but people seem to focus on the one change instead of play-testing to find out how it's different. We wouldn't want the army to function exactly the same as before anyway; I embrace getting something new and exciting.

Finally, give the Swarmlord Eternal Warrior without hoping to roll Iron Arm. Seriously...he's like the definition of Eternal Warrior, and should pretty much be the biggest badass in close combat. He's already close, but Draigo, Abaddon, and Mephiston all kind of rofl-stomp him.

I really like your idea about Pyrovores being upgrades for gants/warriors thats cool.

Alternatively, the pyrovore could be the mobile anti-air unit. Shooting out suicide bats or something similar to fly into the engines of aircraft. Gives you a choice, fire directly at the aircraft, or fire additional shots to blanket the sky with explosive mines. Interesting...

I used to kill Draigo and any other awesome SC with gaunts. One game Calgar and his honour guard were sitting threateningly in front of my Tervigon it some gants and the gants won!


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deathmagiks wrote:
Alternatively, the pyrovore could be the mobile anti-air unit. Shooting out suicide bats or something similar to fly into the engines of aircraft. Gives you a choice, fire directly at the aircraft, or fire additional shots to blanket the sky with explosive mines. Interesting...

I'm sorry if I seemed hostile before, I know the Eldar book isn't complete BS but my brother is really annoying when it comes to them because he isn't used to losing and when he wins he is kind of a condescending donkey-cave which is annoying. It annoys me when he tells me how to play my army.

Back to topic I would love if the Parasite was WS 6 and Tyranid Primes had two free options:
Hardened Carapace
Bonded Exoskeleton and Alpha Warrior.... free
Wings and Aerial Assault....free
Aerial Assault: The Tyranid Prime in any unit of Tyranid Shrikes may use its WS and BS as their own and they may re-roll their hammer of wrath attacks(or something like that not quite sure)

Is your brother older or younger? And don't worry about it. I see a lot of the frustration you were discussing in myself sometimes because my very math oriented friend plays Necrons and it gets bad lol.

Ideally, I think the balance from Tyranids is going to come from an element of pressure. being outflanked on both sides whilst dealing with charges, for example, deep srikes from out of terrain, ambushes from areas you thought you controlled, a sky slowly filling with explosive debris that risk wrecking your flyer more and more with each passing turn...

A tyranid army I envision is an army that forces its opponent to play intelligently and on their feet in every round. Against newer players it might seem hugely overwhelming, but against those who've been around it will definitely shake up conventional gameplay.

A flying prime you say?

 Deathmaster Snikch wrote:
It's the fact he kills all of my Tyrant Guard with Dark Reapers because Star-Shot Missiles are bull . And the fact Guardians and any shuriken weapon will take down terminators and Armoured Shell units down incredibly quickly. Despite the rules being new he moans when I question the book and he agrees nids are weaker than other armies so he should not bitch when I say the new Eldar are quite OP against an army that worked best in 5th edition.


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Also who cares if you have to pay 15 points for a S4 AP 2 Flamer that cause Instant Death on 6's! and the fact pretty much every Eldar weapon now causes something stupid on a roll of a 6 and with Laser Lock, Phil Kelly should of designed it better imo. Not Oh look as my basic guardian squad fires twenty shots into your terminators and rips them apart

The answer is Zoanthropes with Objuration Mechanicum. 6 to hit, you say? Re-roll. 6 to wound, you say? Re-roll.

Deathmagiks hhe's older than me. Yeah I really want a flying Prime that improves Tyranid Shrikes, because Cruddace didn't give them much of a benefit. Xyptc I actually never thought of using Objuration Mechanicum. Thanks. ~ Deathmaster Snikch


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I really want Trygons to be 180pts or something. I know it seems a bit much but In comparison to Lemans Russ Squadrons they are as cheap as . I would prefer Trygons to be Fast Attack as well and move 6 + D6 inches. Trygon Primes to be 210pts and get upgrades that the Hive Tyrant can get, like Armoured Shell and Acid Blood, maybe Toxic Miasma. I would prefer if Toxic Miasma ignored armour saves but was more expensive. Trygon Primes to be heavy support.

Tervigon able to get a Fleshborer Hive and able to purchase a Mycetic Spore, Same with the Tyrannofex. More units able to get Blinding Venom and Thorax Swarms. Broodlords able to get Acid Maw along with other units. Pyrovores like someone has said already are upgrades for Hormagaunts (because they get up close and personal). Pyrovores shouldn't be a unit by themselves now and get rid of the volatile rule because its silly. Biovores stay as their own unit but can join Termagants(any thoughts as to why not?).

Venomthropes and Zoanthropes able to split apart and join gaunt and gant units (Zoanthropes are part of the unit but may split fire). Make Instinctive Behavior like Animosity for Orks in WFB.
1-2 Immobile: The unit can't perform any action this turn unless it is in close combat.(or something like that)
3-4 Feed: (what it does currently but +D6 movement)
5-6 Lurk: (what it does currently but with stealth)

Swarmlord to get the following
Eternal Warrior, Mastery Level 3
'The Swarmlord may be upgraded with one of the following:
Warp Field................................50pts
Rain of Spores*......................50pts
Wings*......................................50pts
Armoured Monstrosity*..........50pts

Rain of Spores(or something like that): Any friendly Tyranid unit deep striking may choose not to scatter if within 12"(or 18") of the Swarmlord.

Wings: The Swarmlord is a Flying Monstrous Creature and may take up to 5 Tyranid Shrikes as bodyguards.

Armoured Monstrosity: The Swarmlord gets a 2+ Armour Save and It Will Not Die(5+*)'

These options would represent the Swarmlord getting born anew and adapting to become better than he was in his previous life.

*5+, I was thinking 4+ but that might be a bit over powered, any thoughts?

A flying swarmlord eh? I think that may not work the best for him. When i think of giving a Tyrant wings i think of him as being anti air and basically shooting support. Not really for close combat. Now maybe a winged Swarmlord would mean getting him to CC just that much quicker but i don't like the thought of my CC champ getting grounded and hurting himself. That's just my thoughts though.

I do like the idea of the armoured shell but i'm sure many of my enemies would hate my for fielding that bady


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And eternal warrior should be a must for him

I'm in the process of buying a Tyranid army, but if I could ask for one thing from a new codex...

...Ass Plasma.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DVk2XCmqM4#t=2m20s

(It's at the 2:20 mark if the above link fails to work)

Let's make this happen GW.

You have a good point there MadmanMSU. Why shouldn't we get plasma weapons or an equvilent.

Ass plasma is one gun you don't want to roll a one on for "it get's hot"

 Hyrule Hero wrote:
You have a good point there MadmanMSU. Why shouldn't we get plasma weapons or an equvilent.

Ass plasma is one gun you don't want to roll a one on for "it get's hot"

Carnifexes can already shoot Bio Plasma...its a 12" range Plasma Cannon...20 pts though?

I take it on Screamer Fexes for fun sometimes.

1 - Primes need some form of upgrades and rule changes.

Being able to join a podding unit of warriors is needed from time to time, or just a unit in a pod in general.

Movement type - Being just infantry is annoying.
What if i wanted to join a unit of shrikes or ravs?
I have to slow that unit down.
Would have thought that nid evolution would give us an option for wings or a snake like body.

Ravs are amazing, but need babysitting, so a lash and sword prime with snake like body would be amazing and might get more people to run them.


Stealers need to be able to assault as quickly as possible.
They hit like a truck in combat and tear most things apart, but they are bloody expensive on points and people can easily shoot them to pieces when they come in.

Tyrant guards - Great unit and i allways run them if i take a flyrant, i just dont join them.
3 solo monsters with swords really do cut through most things and the punishment they can take is unreal.
Really is a solid unit, just a shame you cant pod them or take more than 3.
3 With a prime would be pretty dam solid, but you then have the tax of a tyrant to get them.

 ductvader wrote:

 Hyrule Hero wrote:
You have a good point there MadmanMSU. Why shouldn't we get plasma weapons or an equvilent.

Ass plasma is one gun you don't want to roll a one on for "it get's hot"

Carnifexes can already shoot Bio Plasma...its a 12" range Plasma Cannon...20 pts though?

I take it on Screamer Fexes for fun sometimes.

oh yaaa...i can't believe i forgot about that, even as i was thinking to myself "we need some sort of bio-plasma!" Well i don't usually take it so that's my excuse haha


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 Jackal wrote:
1 -
Tyrant guards - Great unit and i allways run them if i take a flyrant, i just dont join them.
3 solo monsters with swords really do cut through most things and the punishment they can take is unreal.
Really is a solid unit, just a shame you cant pod them or take more than 3.
3 With a prime would be pretty dam solid, but you then have the tax of a tyrant to get them.

How about giving the guards a 2+ save

One more thing, and I know people are gonna hate me for this, but I really think they need to remove being able to take Tervigons as troop choices. Its become too much of a crutch, much like RoW was for Eldar before their update, and every competitive army that knows they'll be fighting nids has counters for it.

I take 2 tervigons and 40 gants in every game...I am not competitive...its just become necessary...and I kinda hate it too.

I am completely okay with the tervigon removal if other infantry gets boosted...like army wide infantry stealth.


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Army wide stealth would be nice because it would balance out the markerlights remove my cover completely bs.

I would be upset if Tervigon's moved to HQ only. I could see them being Heavy Support as well, though.

I'd prefer Tervigons to remain troops, and just make the rest of the bloody book just as good.

When one unit is being taken because it's the only good option, the solution isn't to make that worse, it's to bring everything else up to its level.

I do like the idea that troops can change an hq to troops...instead of an hq changing an elite to troops...its unique

 -Loki- wrote:
I'd prefer Tervigons to remain troops, and just make the rest of the bloody book just as good.

When one unit is being taken because it's the only good option, the solution isn't to make that worse, it's to bring everything else up to its level.

This is my opinion as well.

 -Loki- wrote:
I'd prefer Tervigons to remain troops, and just make the rest of the bloody book just as good.

When one unit is being taken because it's the only good option, the solution isn't to make that worse, it's to bring everything else up to its level.

This is (kind of) what I meant as well. I hope that the rest of the book becomes good enough that Tervigons won't be as much of an autotake anymore.

Tervigons are so good they don't need to be troops.

That can definitely afford to be lost...the rest of the troops section, the fast section, and pyrovores need work.

This is why I'm kinda dreading the new book.

I'll have just finished painting the units that are viable now only to find they have swapped them all around.

I know that is a facet of your book being updated but with the limited number of competitive choices I worry this book will be an extreme example of that business strategy.

 Eldarain wrote:
This is why I'm kinda dreading the new book.

I'll have just finished painting the units that are viable now only to find they have swapped them all around.

I know that is a facet of your book being updated but with the limited number of competitive choices I worry this book will be an extreme example of that business strategy.

It sucks but it comes with the game. Just ask my 30 paladins that are collecting dust...

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
This is why I'm kinda dreading the new book.

I'll have just finished painting the units that are viable now only to find they have swapped them all around.

I know that is a facet of your book being updated but with the limited number of competitive choices I worry this book will be an extreme example of that business strategy.

It sucks but it comes with the game. Just ask my 30 paladins that are collecting dust...

Why don't you just play stock GKTs? Still way competitive.

Nothing is going to make Tyrants less competetive.,.maybe the harpy is going to get some sweet devourer or vector strike action

Tervigons are still going to spawn gants...as long as that stay 3d6 they'll still be good.

termagants will always be good...

...and the rest...we'll its all debatably equally competetive.

I think the only unit that is going to get knocked way down compared to its current ridiculousness is zoanthropes

 ductvader wrote:
Nothing is going to make Tyrants less competetive

Actually, they can. Tyranids as of 6th edition are solidly middle teir, up from their bottom teir in 5th edition. They can definitely be pushed right back down there.

I was winning tournaments much more easily in 5th than 6th.

as always

YMMV

In 5th my Tyranids could barely draw with my friends Eldar and Dark Eldar. Now I struggle to lose against those armies.

One last thing: Bring back rules for the Red Terror! And make it and the the Deathleaper upgrade characters rather than having them take up a whole slot by themselves (unless of course they're giving the Red Terror the kickass "Swallowed Whole!" rule)

I hope it's not some half-assed attempt this time. I think a good deal of the codex's failings are tied to the fact that Cruddace was... scared of making an overpowered army. It's full of potential that is wasted because the rules just don't work. There's a strong deep striking theme, with a number of ways to manipulate reserves. Except...

- Hive Commander doesn't stack for reason and the pheromone trail requires that the Lictors already be on the board, even though they've really been there all this time? The feth?
- Pods are there, but units joined by an IC cannot use them? Why?
- Trygons can tunnel, but there's zero way of ensuring that the units you want can use it? And Raveners, being beasts, cannot use the tunnel even though that the original FW version was sort of based on that?

And the list goes on of nagging little things that seem to have been decided because "ho, this might give them too much of an advantage."

The FAQ is an entirely different ball. Pure undistilled stupidity by whoever is behind it.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
One last thing: Bring back rules for the Red Terror! And make it and the the Deathleaper upgrade characters rather than having them take up a whole slot by themselves (unless of course they're giving the Red Terror the kickass "Swallowed Whole!" rule)

The Red Terror and Deathleaper are two completely different things.

Red Terror is a ravener/MC thats eats things...Deathleaper is the invisible assassin lictor

If the red terror comes back, he needs to come as either a non IC Ravener or Trygon.

 ductvader wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
One last thing: Bring back rules for the Red Terror! And make it and the the Deathleaper upgrade characters rather than having them take up a whole slot by themselves (unless of course they're giving the Red Terror the kickass "Swallowed Whole!" rule)

The Red Terror and Deathleaper are two completely different things.

Red Terror is a ravener/MC thats eats things...Deathleaper is the invisible assassin lictor

If the red terror comes back, he needs to come as either a non IC Ravener or Trygon.

With "swallowed whole", re-inventing the red terror as a named Trygon would be the way to go IMO.

Maybe a Trygon that gives Raveners within 6-12" "Rampage"...that would be sweet.

Looking at the Farsight Supp. it can give some hope to nid players that the possibility of allying in your own army isn't an oversighted avenue GW can take.

I would love to convert a trygon to a Red terror, would be a sweet project. But the whole "swallowed whole" thing sounds like it would be a mawloc thing..

To touch on what you were saying before Ductvader. I think the Tervigon should be removed as a troop choice too. I don't want to blame everything on it but it is making the Tyranid lists too vanilla. But as metioned this is also due to the rest of the army not being quite up to snuff.

I want to see the Tyranofex become more useful. Maybe it's just me but if you are bred to be a giant walking gun, maybe have a better BS. Has anyone actualy found any use for this big bug?

Making the Tervigon non scoring isn't a big deal...I often have so many small squads of gants around it doesnt matter.

But yes...this means that hormagaunts, stealers, and especially warriors need to be reworked, which I personally assume would happen with a new book.

Rippers and Sky Slashers also need something special that makes them worth using.

Use 2 tyrranos...take rupture cannons and cluster spines...have them run up the flanks of swarmlord and laugh maniacally.

I've never lost a game with those 3...preferred enemy on tyrrano shooting is decent...especially with the 20 shot gun.

Something I would love to see is a better implementation of the Hive Mind in-game. It really is a unique part of the Tyranid fluff that is currently only really reflected by making a few units Fearless.

Back in the first ever version of the Tyranid rules (Epic Hive War), you got Hive Mind cards that let you focus on certain aspects of your army. Certain units could be boosted (or even resurrected) by focusing the power of the Hive Mind. Some units would revert to instinctive behaviour unless told to act otherwise. A great way to achieve this in 40k is to do away with all the current rules for synapse range and the like and instead have something like this:


All non-synapse units will act according to their instincts unless otherwise ordered. This means things like Termagants seeking cover and shooting the nearest enemy, Carnifexes rampaging toward the nearest target, etc.

Synapse units and any Psykers would generate a certain number of Hive Mind points at the start of each turn, which go into a pool. These points may be spent on certain actions during the turn, including:

Overriding instinctive behaviour, letting the player fully control a unit

Making a unit Fearless for a turn, and/or automatically rallying it.

Granting FNP or similar USRs

Regenerating wounds or even resurrecting certain units.

Boosting certain psychic powers, such as bypassing Deny the Witch

Protection aganst Perils

etc

Synapse units would then form the real backbone of the Tyranid army, actually using them to coordinate the rest of the force instead of just making them Fearless. It also allows for an element of tactical depth - is it more worthwhile for a player to just leave most of their army following instinctive behaviour while focusing points to boost one or two key units at a critical moment? What if they're now getting too few points due to loss of synapse, what's the best way to prioritise? How do you build lists that generate enough points to perform well, while still being able to inflict damage and claim objectives?

This would make Nids a very unique army to play both as and against, and I think it has great potential if done right.

 xttz wrote:
Something I would love to see is a better implementation of the Hive Mind in-game. It really is a unique part of the Tyranid fluff that is currently only really reflected by making a few units Fearless.

Back in the first ever version of the Tyranid rules (Epic Hive War), you got Hive Mind cards that let you focus on certain aspects of your army. Certain units could be boosted (or even resurrected) by focusing the power of the Hive Mind. Some units would revert to instinctive behaviour unless told to act otherwise. A great way to achieve this in 40k is to do away with all the current rules for synapse range and the like and instead have something like this:


All non-synapse units will act according to their instincts unless otherwise ordered. This means things like Termagants seeking cover and shooting the nearest enemy, Carnifexes rampaging toward the nearest target, etc.

Synapse units and any Psykers would generate a certain number of Hive Mind points at the start of each turn, which go into a pool. These points may be spent on certain actions during the turn, including:

Overriding instinctive behaviour, letting the player fully control a unit

Making a unit Fearless for a turn, and/or automatically rallying it.

Granting FNP or similar USRs

Regenerating wounds or even resurrecting certain units.

Boosting certain psychic powers, such as bypassing Deny the Witch

Protection aganst Perils

etc

Synapse units would then form the real backbone of the Tyranid army, actually using them to coordinate the rest of the force instead of just making them Fearless. It also allows for an element of tactical depth - is it more worthwhile for a player to just leave most of their army following instinctive behaviour while focusing points to boost one or two key units at a critical moment? What if they're now getting too few points due to loss of synapse, what's the best way to prioritise? How do you build lists that generate enough points to perform well, while still being able to inflict damage and claim objectives?

This would make Nids a very unique army to play both as and against, and I think it has great potential if done right.

While I applaud the idea...I personally don't like the Warmahordes feel this will bring to the game.

I would prefer that there be be an even greater diversity in what instinctive behavior is.

 Goat wrote:
Looking at the Farsight Supp. it can give some hope to nid players that the possibility of allying in your own army isn't an oversighted avenue GW can take.

That's what I thought, but I have a feeling that GW will pull a fluff card and say "but Hive Fleets do not cooperate! They kill each other and the strongest fleet is bolstered!"
Of course Black Templar can ally with Eldar though, that's A-OK.

And Farsight can ally with Orks!

3 words
36" warp lance

Honestly 18" would do it with onslaught already present.

And I think Brainleech devourers need to be able to be taken on Harpies.

HVC and VC need some sort of increased radius or AP increase/decrease...better it!

Honestly I think Harpies should just gain the ability to assault aircraft.

If they actually release a model and give harpies a way to deal with tanks or fliers they're going to sell like crazy.

 ductvader wrote:
Honestly 18" would do it with onslaught already present.

And I think Brainleech devourers need to be able to be taken on Harpies.

HVC and VC need some sort of increased radius or AP increase/decrease...better it!

Honestly I think Harpies should just gain the ability to assault aircraft.

If they actually release a model and give harpies a way to deal with tanks or fliers they're going to sell like crazy.

I'd like to use harpies a lot more and i think that would do the trick. I just love the idea of assualting in the air. Just watch harpies become the new spam and we'll all be in here a year from now complaining about them being the new crutch haha

I just like the idea of a Harpy landing on a HellTurkey and ripping its wings off.

Yes! a million times yes!
Now someone give that Harpy twin linked devourers and rending claws!

Or, you know, a pair of 3 shot bio cannons. They are smaller harridans anyway, right?

Since they didn't make the new Hive Tyrant kit able to be a harpy (despite how easy it would have been) I have a feeling a harpy kit if/when the release it will be able to make a different type of flying MC for the new codex.

Also, based on the weapons available for the new Hive Tyrant kit, anyone else worried the new codex wont let them take devourers?

Give the harpy a twin linked Impaler cannon, please.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Since they didn't make the new Hive Tyrant kit able to be a harpy (despite how easy it would have been) I have a feeling a harpy kit if/when the release it will be able to make a different type of flying MC for the new codex.

Also, based on the weapons available for the new Hive Tyrant kit, anyone else worried the new codex wont let them take devourers?

You know i'm really not that worried about that. Leave the anti infantry to the gribbles. The Hive Tyrants IMO should stick to the support role of battle comanders. I feel that with the flyrant we take it out of this role some what as well

 Hyrule Hero wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Since they didn't make the new Hive Tyrant kit able to be a harpy (despite how easy it would have been) I have a feeling a harpy kit if/when the release it will be able to make a different type of flying MC for the new codex.

Also, based on the weapons available for the new Hive Tyrant kit, anyone else worried the new codex wont let them take devourers?

You know i'm really not that worried about that. Leave the anti infantry to the gribbles. The Hive Tyrants IMO should stick to the support role of battle comanders. I feel that with the flyrant we take it out of this role some what as well

Yeah the rule change doesn't bug me either. I just feel bad for all the people who put two or even four devourers on their Hive Tyrants, and it was probably a lot of people given how it is one of the best options at the moment...

Im not to worried about having to drop devs from my flyrant, i just dont want them near my fex's with dev cutting

Currently playing around with 6 fex's.
4 with twin dev's and 2 with devs + strangle. (3x2 units)

Even with all the fex hate recently, they are still pretty damn good and cause plenty of chaos from people not expecting them.
Granted they cost alot, but its paid for pretty quickly against horde armies or DE. (depending on 1st turn for the later of the 2)

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

 Hyrule Hero wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Since they didn't make the new Hive Tyrant kit able to be a harpy (despite how easy it would have been) I have a feeling a harpy kit if/when the release it will be able to make a different type of flying MC for the new codex.

Also, based on the weapons available for the new Hive Tyrant kit, anyone else worried the new codex wont let them take devourers?

You know i'm really not that worried about that. Leave the anti infantry to the gribbles. The Hive Tyrants IMO should stick to the support role of battle comanders. I feel that with the flyrant we take it out of this role some what as well

Yeah the rule change doesn't bug me either. I just feel bad for all the people who put two or even four devourers on their Hive Tyrants, and it was probably a lot of people given how it is one of the best options at the moment...

Luckily my buds and I don't play What you see is what you get so my tyrant still has sything talons and barbed strangler and my dakka fex really has a venom canon


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 Jackal wrote:
Im not to worried about having to drop devs from my flyrant, i just dont want them near my fex's with dev cutting

Currently playing around with 6 fex's.
4 with twin dev's and 2 with devs + strangle. (3x2 units)

Even with all the fex hate recently, they are still pretty damn good and cause plenty of chaos from people not expecting them.
Granted they cost alot, but its paid for pretty quickly against horde armies or DE. (depending on 1st turn for the later of the 2)

This is just seeming like another example of how this codex makes the Tyranids vanilla. Most people field a dakka fex, and they're great, but many other builds just don't cut it for the points and abilities

 Hyrule Hero wrote:
This is just seeming like another example of how this codex makes the Tyranids vanilla. Most people field a dakka fex, and they're great, but many other builds just don't cut it for the points and abilities

Here is the current thread for non vanilla type tyranid play.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/536527.page

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Also, based on the weapons available for the new Hive Tyrant kit, anyone else worried the new codex wont let them take devourers?

The Hive Tyrant kit has never included Devourers or Deathspitters, because those are actually part of the new Carnifex kit, not a generic weapon sprue. That didn't stop them giving Hive Tyrants the option in 3rd, 4th or 5th edition. 3rd edition didnt have MC Devourers or Deathspitters at all, and Carnifexes and Hive Tyrants could take them (as well as MC Fleshborers, but that was dropped when no kits had them in 4th).

MC Devourers exist, so they're not going to take the option away. The fact you have to buy 2 Carnifex kits (outside of impossibly trying to source the bits) to give 1 Hive Tyrant 4 Devourers is just gravy to GW. This is why people came up with the conversion of using Fleshborer Hives instead.

 -Loki- wrote:
The Hive Tyrant kit has never included Devourers or Deathspitters, because those are actually part of the new Carnifex kit, not a generic weapon sprue. That didn't stop them giving Hive Tyrants the option in 3rd, 4th or 5th edition. 3rd edition didnt have MC Devourers or Deathspitters at all, and Carnifexes and Hive Tyrants could take them (as well as MC Fleshborers, but that was dropped when no kits had them in 4th).

No model = no rule (with the odd exceptions here and there such as unique wargear) is something pretty new from GW, so what they did in previous editions has exactly zero bearings on this.

But as you say, the bits are available from another kit. So I wouldn't assume that it will be removed, especially since the last codex specifically created a Monstrous Creature variant of the Devourer.

On the upside of that policy, is that we'll most likely see the Carnifex gain 'new' options thanks to the unused bits.

 Vhalyar wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:
The Hive Tyrant kit has never included Devourers or Deathspitters, because those are actually part of the new Carnifex kit, not a generic weapon sprue. That didn't stop them giving Hive Tyrants the option in 3rd, 4th or 5th edition. 3rd edition didnt have MC Devourers or Deathspitters at all, and Carnifexes and Hive Tyrants could take them (as well as MC Fleshborers, but that was dropped when no kits had them in 4th).

No model = no rule (with the odd exceptions here and there such as unique wargear) is something pretty new from GW, so what they did in previous editions has exactly zero bearings on this.

But as you say, the bits are available from another kit. So I wouldn't assume that it will be removed, especially since the last codex specifically created a Monstrous Creature variant of the Devourer.

Space Marine Tactical squads only come with a missile launcher, but can use any of the heavy weapons from the Devastator box. No one is assuming Tactical squads will lose all heavy weapons bar the missile launcher, are they?

Yes, the weapons do exist, they're in another box. This is par for the course with GW.

 Vhalyar wrote:
On the upside of that policy, is that we'll most likely see the Carnifex gain 'new' options thanks to the unused bits.

Unlikely. The Carnifex has all of the weapons it's likely going to get. The only MC weapons it's lacking are Lashwhip and Bonesword, but Boneswords are never on non-synapse units, and Lashwhips wouldn't make sense on a Carnifex at all.

I'm talking about the Carnifex's tail options, enhanced senses head, tusk head and 1 carapace option (I think, on the last two) which no longer represent anything.

 Vhalyar wrote:
I'm talking about the Carnifex's tail options, enhanced senses head, tusk head and 1 carapace option (I think, on the last two) which no longer represent anything.

I agree - i liked having the scythe tail for extra CC attacks, and the Tusked biomorph for more attacks on the charge. I think with 6th edition, a tusked carnifex should get extra hammer-of-wrath hits when it charges.

 ductvader wrote:

 Hyrule Hero wrote:
This is just seeming like another example of how this codex makes the Tyranids vanilla. Most people field a dakka fex, and they're great, but many other builds just don't cut it for the points and abilities

Here is the current thread for non vanilla type tyranid play.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/536527.page

Nice. This is exactly what i want to see of the Tyranids again. Sure the standard five options will make a competative army but i didn't start playing Tyranids becasue i wanted an army that had a single build that would win a bunch of games. I play them because they're super bugs that use the powers of nature and evolution to make hidious armies of doom and are just plain freaking cool.

I want these Tyranids back. And still be able to win every now and then


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 tetrisphreak wrote:

 Vhalyar wrote:
I'm talking about the Carnifex's tail options, enhanced senses head, tusk head and 1 carapace option (I think, on the last two) which no longer represent anything.

I agree - i liked having the scythe tail for extra CC attacks, and the Tusked biomorph for more attacks on the charge. I think with 6th edition, a tusked carnifex should get extra hammer-of-wrath hits when it charges.

I think i miss all the different biomorphs of the carnifex more then anything

 xttz wrote:

Boosting certain psychic powers, such as bypassing Deny the Witch

I feel like tyranid psykers should be immune to deny the witch anyway, since according to fluff they dont even use the warp for their psykers

Well...not being connected to the warp doesn't mean you're not affected by it.

While I may not have any inclination or possible way of contracting magical powers...that doesn't stop someone who can access magic from toasting me with a fireball they summoned.

that would be if I said tyranids are immune to psychic power. I was saying other armies should not be able to use their warp power to stop a non-warp power, because tyranids dont use the warp for their power

I think DTW is more of a general term that encirles many powers or abilities to stop the effects of a power. Same as how Tyranids can have Iron arm or other psyker powers without being warp fueled psykers

 Hyrule Hero wrote:
I think DTW is more of a general term that encirles many powers or abilities to stop the effects of a power. Same as how Tyranids can have Iron arm or other psyker powers without being warp fueled psykers

Exactly...it is a way of describing the strength of will to resist changes within one's self. Those more intellectually aware of forces are better prepared to stop those forces.

Speaking of unstoppable forces. I love the Swarm Lord and just can't help but feel they might make him slightly less awesome with the new codex, like lower his CC abilities. Hopefully if they do this they buff his support role but frankley i love him just the way he is. Maybe he could have the option for armored shell but other then that no changes please!

 Hyrule Hero wrote:
Speaking of unstoppable forces. I love the Swarm Lord and just can't help but feel they might make him slightly less awesome with the new codex, like lower his CC abilities. Hopefully if they do this they buff his support role but frankley i love him just the way he is. Maybe he could have the option for armored shell but other then that no changes please!

Chaos daemon bloodthirsters stayed amazing in cc, I expect swarm lord will as well. He comes in a $53 plastic kit, do they will want to keep his rules good for that reason alone - people will buy one.

If anything I think the crystaline warp energy bone sabres are going to get more powerful and he's going to take a minor hit himself.

But you don't just make something that good and then take it back.

Bloodthirsters were made to be kings of combat just like the swarmlord and I dont see anyone arguing that its going to change.

If there is any difference it will be a lack of iron arm that hurts him.

I love swarmy, so much so I had one customized. Don't get me wrong, I don't field him because footslogging accross the map is not on my to do list. Him and Timmy the Tyrant guard do make it out for fun games though. I think compared to the MC that are out today he could due for a little bit of a buff.

 Roci wrote:
I love swarmy, so much so I had one customized. Don't get me wrong, I don't field him because footslogging accross the map is not on my to do list. Him and Timmy the Tyrant guard do make it out for fun games though. I think compared to the MC that are out today he could due for a little bit of a buff.

Nice. I like the longer sabers, the one's on the current model look a tad to short to me. I should GS some custom ones myself

A bit of a buff because of MCs?

Swarmlord in the current meta annihilates DreadKnights, Riptides, and WraithKnights

 ductvader wrote:
A bit of a buff because of MCs?

Swarmlord in the current meta annihilates DreadKnights, Riptides, and WraithKnights

If he can get to them.

 tetrisphreak wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
A bit of a buff because of MCs?

Swarmlord in the current meta annihilates DreadKnights, Riptides, and WraithKnights

If he can get to them.

He will unless you're stupid and dont give him tyrant guard

Swarmy has an 83% chance of getting that sweet sweet Iron Arm too...he is always getting there right now.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

 tetrisphreak wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
A bit of a buff because of MCs?

Swarmlord in the current meta annihilates DreadKnights, Riptides, and WraithKnights

If he can get to them.

He will unless you're stupid and dont give him tyrant guard

They all move significantly faster than him (Riptide and Wraithknight jetpacks and Dreadknight teleport). If they let themselves be caught by the Swarmlord, they're they're stupid player.

Someone else said it better - the Swarmlord isn't about getting into combat, it's about having an 36" wide 'no go' bubble on the table. Since getting into combat with him is the last thing you ever want, he creates a gigantic bubble on the table people want to avoid - his potential charge range. This gives to some important breathing room for taking objectives. If someone is dumb enough to get in that range and get charged, he gets to have a bit of fun being the games most powerful beatstick.

 -Loki- wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

 tetrisphreak wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
A bit of a buff because of MCs?

Swarmlord in the current meta annihilates DreadKnights, Riptides, and WraithKnights

If he can get to them.

He will unless you're stupid and dont give him tyrant guard

They all move significantly faster than him (Riptide and Wraithknight jetpacks and Dreadknight teleport). If they let themselves be caught by the Swarmlord, they're they're stupid player.

Someone else said it better - the Swarmlord isn't about getting into combat, it's about having an 36" wide 'no go' bubble on the table. Since getting into combat with him is the last thing you ever want, he creates a gigantic bubble on the table people want to avoid - his potential charge range. This gives to some important breathing room for taking objectives. If someone is dumb enough to get in that range and get charged, he gets to have a bit of fun being the games most powerful beatstick.

I agree with everything Loki just said.

And then tack on the biomancy power that gives fleet for more no-go


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's how I first turn charged an opponent who wasn't thinking clearly enough and scouted their pathfinders forward.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

 tetrisphreak wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
A bit of a buff because of MCs?

Swarmlord in the current meta annihilates DreadKnights, Riptides, and WraithKnights

If he can get to them.

He will unless you're stupid and dont give him tyrant guard

Yeah give him two guards and laugh as he slowly slogs his way to eviserate anything in his way. I still remember the first time i fielded the Swarm lord against some Necons, he literally just walked from combat to combat slaughtering anything he touched. Even mind shackle scarabs didn't slow him down. A tear came to my eye as i leaned over and asked him where he'd been all my life (creepy much?)

I know the current meta is one guard for the Iron Arm bonus but I always field 3 lash guard.

I whip the opponent into submission and let swarmy do work.

You can keep up endurance and rotate models until you have a single guard left and the iron arm bonus auto kicks in for the squad.

All this Swarm lord talk is making me itch for a game. I think i'll use him this weekend against my buddies eldar. We had an epic show down once with the Avatar vs my Swarm lord. It was close but in the end due to bad rolls and the Avater being able to strip him of his bone sabers he lost, but just barley

 Hyrule Hero wrote:
All this Swarm lord talk is making me itch for a game. I think i'll use him this wekend against my buddies eldar. We had an epic show down once with the Avatar vs my Swarm lord. It was close but in the end due to bad rolls and the Avater being able to strip him of his bone sabers he lost, but just barley

There are a host of questions I can't answer without my book nearby.

Doesn't swarmy have 2 sets of sabres...even if one was turned into a ccw...the others would still nuke him I think?

It has yet to be FAQ'd if tyranid weapons can be disarming striked at all as they aren't really weapons...they're arms.

I have no clue honestly...but something to think about.

Oh, don't get me wrong.. I love that model, by far my favorite one but he is just a little outmoded for the current game.

I've used him in fun lists and had quite a few people make the mistake of letting me get to close or have him wiping out 20 man units in a single turn.

All that said, you pretty much have to have his guard.. so your spending 340pts just for that one unit. Compare that to the MC and FMC out there.. Lord of Change, Fateweaver, Tides, wraithknights, dreadknights all server more than one purpose and are just as hard or harder to kill.

With all the rend, bladestorm, ignorecover and high power shooting ( some even in large volume) he isn't that hard to kill.

I don't think they need to make him more of a beatstick..(CC wise) but would be nice to see a shunt move or something that makes him more of a threat. Its only once a game but you have to be mindful or he will rush you and eat your face off. He is also under powered on a psychic level.. I would like to see level 3 in my personal opinion.

 ductvader wrote:

 Hyrule Hero wrote:
All this Swarm lord talk is making me itch for a game. I think i'll use him this wekend against my buddies eldar. We had an epic show down once with the Avatar vs my Swarm lord. It was close but in the end due to bad rolls and the Avater being able to strip him of his bone sabers he lost, but just barley

There are a host of questions I can't answer without my book nearby.

Doesn't swarmy have 2 sets of sabres...even if one was turned into a ccw...the others would still nuke him I think?

It has yet to be FAQ'd if tyranid weapons can be disarming striked at all as they aren't really weapons...they're arms.

I have no clue honestly...but something to think about.

Yeah we had a long debate as soon as he pulled it. I made the same arguements, even if he could disarm him he still has another set. But the Tyranid rules only really mention it as a single CC ability. For the sake of continuing the game i just went with it but i still think it flawed. It's not like the sabers are something you equip to him so how can you un-equip them, that's like saying he's disarming my carapace


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 Roci wrote:
I don't think they need to make him more of a beatstick..(CC wise) but would be nice to see a shunt move or something that makes him more of a threat. Its only once a game but you have to be mindful or he will rush you and eat your face off. He is also under powered on a psychic level.. I would like to see level 3 in my personal opinion.

Now there's a thought

The best argument that can be made for the logic is that he cut off your hand...and you grew it back next round of combat....

The argument is heavily flawed...from both sides.

There is no clear answer until the FAQ drops...the question is already in yakface's questionnaire for GW.

Good to know. Next game i'm just going to hold my ground

A part of me wants to make a screamer killer - swarmlord death star for this next game. Too much? actually that may be a lot of points to sink into an army that's facing Eldar

Screamerfexes?

Like stock with bio plasma?

Depends on the Eldar...if they're taking the massed S6 and 7...you're good.

If there's an insane combination of Bladestorm, Monofilament, and AP2 weapons...no go.

need to throw this combo against my friend who plays Dark Angels. He alwasy puts all his points into terminators which can be a pain to bring down but at the same time they don't seem to do much to my army

Well it's good to know most people out there seem to have the same hopes for the new codex. Hopefully that means that more people think this way including GW themselves and Cruddace and Kelly can throw something really good together to get this army back on track

I'm dying just to hear a rumor or two regarding the nid book - it's been awful quiet on the rumor front lately.

 Hyrule Hero wrote:
A part of me wants to make a screamer killer - swarmlord death star for this next game. Too much? actually that may be a lot of points to sink into an army that's facing Eldar

Not really a Death Star since it's multiple units... (Swarmie can't join Fexes).

I'm hoping that means they just really want to wow the fans

I want to hear more about the supposed new model they're making


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rigeld2 wrote:

 Hyrule Hero wrote:
A part of me wants to make a screamer killer - swarmlord death star for this next game. Too much? actually that may be a lot of points to sink into an army that's facing Eldar

Not really a Death Star since it's multiple units... (Swarmie can't join Fexes).

I know i more just mean have them rolling as a crew for extra muscle

Slightly related to topic:

Just had a look at the table of contents of the new Imperial Armour: Apocalypse book. Malanthrope broods are indeed getting an update. I'm eager to see how they change their rules, and if they stay Warhammer 40K approved. I have a pair that i'm currently working on and I'd love to field them.

So they might be useful?
Interesting.

I don't actually know the rules on these guys, just the model. What is their army role?

In the old/current book they're an HQ MC that is okay in assault (but not amazing) and buffs everyone nearby after they wipe out a unit.
edit: also, you can take them 3 to a unit.

I see. hmmm sounds like they could be useful.

I hear a lot of people want a spore pod model, which would be nice but i use like 3 pods sometimes. I'm to much of a po' boy to buy three of them

Yup - they used to be really amazing, wounding on a 2+ in cc and causing instant death. They got a major nerf (and points drop) in their most recent iteration, basically being as rigeld2 describes above.

Of course, knowing they have a datasheet is great but it might be weeks before i'm able to have a look at it and see if they improved or not.

Oh also the Scythed Hierodule is getting updated in the new IA:Apoc as well.

Am I the only one who liked Cruddace's book when it came out? It's getting dated, without a doubt.

But I thought that it was really well balanced overall and allowed for the player to play however they wanted.


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To be fair I never played the book before it...

 ductvader wrote:
Am I the only one who liked Cruddace's book when it came out? It's getting dated, without a doubt.

But I thought that it was really well balanced overall and allowed for the player to play however they wanted.


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To be fair I never played the book before it...

You mean the latest codex?? or an older one

 ductvader wrote:
But I thought that it was really well balanced overall and allowed for the player to play however they wanted.

Go read the Pyrovore entry and try to say that again without laughing. (or crying)

Yes you could say the codex is balanced as far as rules go but balance isn't the the only thing a well oiled machine needs. A paper cup has balance but it can still easily be crushed

Pyrovores suck...yeah...but with the introduction of wraithscythes i think we might see a more fluffy version of that flamer next round.

I predict that pyrovores are going to get an AP3 flamer if not AP2 flamer to suit the fluffy "bio plasma" feel of tyranids and the stupid bug will finally get away from being a fire thrower...which never made any sense to me...maybe they'll even explode in plasma blasts...maybe they'll explode to gets hot? I think they'll stay 2 wounds with a 4+ to balance the devestation with fragility

It's all theorycrafting but I think it might happen to follow the flow that GW is trying to create back into the mech world to generate more money once again...with serpents out and codex marines coming back...armor is becoming strong once again and more plasma weapons helps GW sell more vehicles.

I personally think we're quickly going to see the mechanization of marines in rhinos after tyranids start to wipe out infantry better than before and people realize that flamers overwatching out of rhinos are a lot more attractive than they used to be.

Overall I'm veryy excited for the balance that has been occurring this year in the game. Tau and Eldar alone are influencing the way in which people build their armies...spam and deathstars have taken quite a hit this year as players find they need more in their toolbag than just melta or just plasma or just S6-7

I took that rant in a few different directions...hm...not asking anyone to agree...just stating my opinions.

 ductvader wrote:
Pyrovores suck...yeah...but with the introduction of wraithscythes i think we might see a more fluffy version of that flamer next round.

I predict that pyrovores are going to get an AP3 flamer if not AP2 flamer to suit the fluffy "bio plasma" feel of tyranids and the stupid bug will finally get away from being a fire thrower...which never made any sense to me...maybe they'll even explode in plasma blasts...maybe they'll explode to gets hot? I think they'll stay 2 wounds with a 4+ to balance the devestation with fragility

It's all theorycrafting but I think it might happen to follow the flow that GW is trying to create back into the mech world to generate more money once again...with serpents out and codex marines coming back...armor is becoming strong once again and more plasma weapons helps GW sell more vehicles.

I personally think we're quickly going to see the mechanization of marines in rhinos after tyranids start to wipe out infantry better than before and people realize that flamers overwatching out of rhinos are a lot more attractive than they used to be.

Overall I'm veryy excited for the balance that has been occurring this year in the game. Tau and Eldar alone are influencing the way in which people build their armies...spam and deathstars have taken quite a hit this year as players find they need more in their toolbag than just melta or just plasma or just S6-7

I took that rant in a few different directions...hm...not asking anyone to agree...just stating my opinions.

I think that would really help improve the pyrovore model. It has so much potential and i even like the look of the model so some changes would be nice.

If Tyranids got some better stats to combat army i think it would really help them out. i know they have some already but a little bump couldn't hurt

I think having some more units with inv save or at least the option to purchase one would be a good idea too. Nothing like seeing my Tyrant go down to a Nob with a power claw

I prefer the lack of invulnerable saves to an increase in FnP.

For MCs...a 5+ FnP is better than a 5+ invuln any day.

It also makes them fluffier as invulns don't make sense for anything outside of agility for bugs...except for the giant brains that are zoeys

A Tyrant shouldn't have an invuln...instead he can be T6-9 and take a 2+ save...and then all he has to deal with is unwieldy weapons...and super special weapons.

It's probably just my bitterness towards Terminators that's speaking lol.

So do you think FNP should be a standard for the bigger and better Bugs?

I think that it should be a possibility...like a tyranid psychic tree with FnP in the primaris...this would boost Tyrants, Tervigons, and Broodlords to competitive but not broken levels.


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And then zoeys get their lance and blast as normal with access to only telekinesis and telepathy.

Broods, Terv, and Tyrants would only get access to biomancy and telepathy

I think it should just be standard on things like carnifexes. T6 mixed with FNP and you got yourself a big bad bug that fits the fluff and puts the fear of the hive back into the enemy

Tyranids units and models aren't meant to be all purpose...without the ability to sling FnP where you need it, you heavily lose synergy and the competitive ability to multiply the effectiveness of your force.

True. True
I guess i'd just be happy even with the armoured shell upgrade for carnifexs

I'm really curious as to what kind of Tyranid specific War lord traits they're going to have. I'm assuming they're going to have there own as that seems to be the trend. Giving a single unit the ability to assault out of reserves would be a good one

Am I the only one who liked Cruddace's book when it came out? It's getting dated, without a doubt.

Overall I enjoyed it too being honest.
But it is a little dated and has some glaring omissions and game mechanic problems which have been well covered here.

To balance the book I have 2 real strong guesses for what is going to happen to the bug book.

1) Army wide stealth
2) FnP blessings readily available across synapse creatures

Which do you think would be more likely in the update.

Both make sense and would help the bugs get back to assault.

Sidenote: what kind of preferred enemy/hatred/buff/debuff do you see bugs having...if any.

Ultramarines would be cool...I feel like Ultramarines and genestealers are the heart and soul of all things 40k

 ductvader wrote:
To balance the book I have 2 real strong guesses for what is going to happen to the bug book.

1) Army wide stealth
2) FnP blessings readily available across synapse creatures

Which do you think would be more likely in the update.

Both make sense and would help the bugs get back to assault.

Sidenote: what kind of preferred enemy/hatred/buff/debuff do you see bugs having...if any.

Ultramarines would be cool...I feel like Ultramarines and genestealers are the heart and soul of all things 40k

I would say FNP boons over army wide stealth. While stealth would help out some units i don't feel it would balance the codex out as much as a higher range of FNP through out the army

Ultramarines would be a good one. If the hive mind is going to especialy hate anyone it's going to be those pesky smurfs

I would rather see a cover save or invul over fnp, at least for the smaller bugs. Tau and eldar have brought back a huge amount of s6+ shooting. If this trend continues and the next few dex's have this as well, fnp is only going to benefit the big bugs.

I would like to see a general increase in the psychic levels for the nids.(pay for it like others, bump the named ones to fit)

I'd love for swarmy to get armored shell and a small invul save out of combat, nothing fancy, a 5 will do. Call it a warp shield Tyrants can make but isn't as focused as zoans.

He may go up to warp mastey 3 or even 4 from what I hear at my GW though.

I also hear some hopeful rumors of a warp shield power to slap a 5++ on a unit.

No word on whether we get more than one table like other psyker heavy armies though.


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Of course my group are fond of "my brother's cousin's uncle's daughter's ex boyfriend's boss" kind of rumors

Level 4 swarmy! now that would be one serious bug. Can give great support if the powers are right and can destroy the foe as well!

 Hyrule Hero wrote:
Level 4 swarmy! now that would be one serious bug. Can give great support if the powers are right and can destroy the foe as well!

I'd also speculate on the Doom becoming a multi charge psyker since he is a giant floating god brain.

Pyrovores seem set for a buff too, and venom cannons seem to be agreed on dropping their arbitrary -1 damage penalty at least.

The groupthink here also cautiously predicts the new book getting a little into that "lol marines" shooting everyone else is. Can't agree on how just yet.

It's more group think trying to predict based on GW's typical decisions than standard rumors though.

 Kain wrote:

 Hyrule Hero wrote:
Level 4 swarmy! now that would be one serious bug. Can give great support if the powers are right and can destroy the foe as well!

I'd also speculate on the Doom becoming a multi charge psyker since he is a giant floating god brain.

Pyrovores seem set for a buff too, and venom cannons seem to be agreed on dropping their arbitrary -1 damage penalty at least.

The groupthink here also cautiously predicts the new book getting a little into that "lol marines" shooting everyone else is. Can't agree on how just yet.

It's more group think trying to predict based on GW's typical decisions than standard rumors though.

yeah the doom feels like a one trick pony at the moment. It's a very good trick but he feels like he could be so much more then he is

Stealth makes no sense at all for the smaller bugs.

More Psychic Powers would be pretty nice. You could have a sort of "Shared Warp Charge" system, which would represent Synapse and through it the link to the Hive Mind. You'd have a pool of Warp Charge and any unit in Synapse Range can use it to cast blessings upon themselves (all other types of powers would have to go through Psykers), using the Ld of the nearest Psyker to cast the spell.

An interesting method, but I'm maybe getting carried away here.

 The Shadow wrote:
Stealth makes no sense at all for the smaller bugs..

Bugs that can adapt and evolve to look like their surroundings and to become the strongest they can be in that environment against an enemy. Stealth makes a lot of sense. Or at least constant nightfighting.

And as we are this far away from a release...rumors are barely even out there for the book...predictions based on GW's money is always a better bet than on what makes sense for an army.

I also don't see any groupthink really happening here.

Tyranids in November! That is my wish list.

 ductvader wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:
Stealth makes no sense at all for the smaller bugs..

Bugs that can adapt and evolve to look like their surroundings and to become the strongest they can be in that environment against an enemy. Stealth makes a lot of sense. Or at least constant nightfighting.

The smaller bugs don't do that though. That's exactly what Lictors were made to do. The gaunts attack like the Arachnids in Starship Troopers. Waves and waves and waves of them with little regard for their personal wellbeing, whose sole purpose it is to overwhelm.

Catalyst should bestow feel no pain within the synapse bubble of the psykers that use the power.


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Hey, I just had another thought:

I noticed in the table of contents of the new Imperial Armour Apocalypse book, Malanthropes are getting an updated data sheet, as are Scythed hierodules, and Hierophants are getting some biomorph options. All cool, but sometimes the writing is between the lines....

Stone Crusher Carnifexes are NOT in the table of contents, nor are they listed in the apocalypse main book.

What if, this is a sign that the stone crusher variant will be potentially in the next codex release? Or rather, a 2+ armor save fex with crushing claws, that would make a stone-crusher variant obsolete?

perhaps i'm reading too much into the absence of a single data sheet, but i think it could mean something.

NIDS IN NOVEMBER! let's all chant it loudly so it comes true!

Nids in November with a new model!

Long shot, but I think it would be cool to bring genestealer hybrids back to life like the old days.

 eimaj wrote:
Long shot, but I think it would be cool to bring genestealer hybrids back to life like the old days.

To me this is just the sort of thing the nee army supplements should address.

Really, Tyranids are a huge concept. They don't need allies in their book, because there is already almost too much to represent.

- Infestation and scout swarms (Hormagaunts, Lictors, Genestealers)
- Tsunamis of lesser creatures without number (Termagants, Hormagaunts, Genestealers, Warriors, Tervigons)
- Line-breaking monster stampedes (Carnifexes, Tyrannofexes)
- Tunneling swarms (Raveners, Trygons, Mawlocs)
- Airborne swarms (Gargoyles, Harpies, Shrikes)
- Exotic specialists (Zoanthropes, Venomthropes, Biovores)
- Synapse web (Warriors, Tyrants, Tervigons)
- Consumption phase creatures (Malanthopes, Rippers, Pyrovores, Parasites)
- Mycetic assault swarms
- Tyrannoformation of the battlefield (there is so much untapped potential here; Spore Chimneys, Capillary Towers, Brood Nests, Reclamation Pools)

It's sort of understandable why the current book is a bit of a jumble. It's like Cruddace wanted to capture everything the Tyranids could bring, but couldn't quite get the job done (which in someways is understandable; no amount of internal playtesting is a substitute for a worldwide market, and no Tyranid book as ever had this much variety of units before; expect the next book to build upon the lessons learnt).

Hyrule Hero wrote:I mean don't get me wrong, some changes were nice with the new edition but if given the choice i'd take my old bugs any day.

And i know everyone will call me blasphemous for this but frankly i think that the Tervigon, while a great model and helps boost armies, has become a crutch for the Tyranids. And makes an army that's suppose to be constantly changing and adapting into a cookie cut army. But then again i guess it's not the poor prego bugs fault but that of HE WHO SHALL NOT BE NAMED

I will agree, it is a crutch. I do sigh a little at every list with maxed Flyrants and Tervigons.

fidel wrote:Doing some quick math - if we factor in the mutation points from the other addition and use the rules for synapse in this addition...

A 1500 pt army would include (not including elites or HQ or Heavy Support)

98 Hormagaunts (three troop choices)
98 Termagaunts (three troop choices)

That leaves about 300-400 points to play with for 1500 list...

and remember... all that brood is synapse now without needing synapse....

Wait a second ...this is what we had in previous editions? Why did they take away these wonderful items before I heard about this game! Time to continue work on my time machine. I mean really! I love horde probably more than the next guy...but that...I can fit so many wounds into a list at that point.

Hyrule Hero wrote:I guess everyone can agree we want to see the carnifex back in action with better/more upgrade options but not costing a crud load of points.

And our assault based army should be better equipped at assaulting

One thing i'd like to really see bumped up a bit, especially with the (rumored) edition of a harpy model, would be spore mines. They seem like they have so much potential to be way more of a pain in the ass to the enemy then they are now. Orbital deployment can make these little guys really krunk up an enemy armies movement

I have been hoping that our next major release is a harpy. We are the only codex that I know of that has no actual flier models (Flyrant not included.)

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:One last thing: Bring back rules for the Red Terror! And make it and the the Deathleaper upgrade characters rather than having them take up a whole slot by themselves (unless of course they're giving the Red Terror the kickass "Swallowed Whole!" rule)

To be honest, I could see the Red Terror being an upgrade comparable to the Broodlord. It makes sense.

ductvader wrote:I prefer the lack of invulnerable saves to an increase in FnP.

For MCs...a 5+ FnP is better than a 5+ invuln any day.

It also makes them fluffier as invulns don't make sense for anything outside of agility for bugs...except for the giant brains that are zoeys

A Tyrant shouldn't have an invuln...instead he can be T6-9 and take a 2+ save...and then all he has to deal with is unwieldy weapons...and super special weapons.

To be honest, I would see all the Tyranid monstrous creatures have access to It Will Not Die! as regeneration.

 tetrisphreak wrote:
Hey, I just had another thought:

I noticed in the table of contents of the new Imperial Armour Apocalypse book, Malanthropes are getting an updated data sheet, as are Scythed hierodules, and Hierophants are getting some biomorph options. All cool, but sometimes the writing is between the lines....

Stone Crusher Carnifexes are NOT in the table of contents, nor are they listed in the apocalypse main book.

What if, this is a sign that the stone crusher variant will be potentially in the next codex release? Or rather, a 2+ armor save fex with crushing claws, that would make a stone-crusher variant obsolete?

perhaps i'm reading too much into the absence of a single data sheet, but i think it could mean something.

NIDS IN NOVEMBER! let's all chant it loudly so it comes true!

A few things.

Games Workshop have said publicly they're not cannibalising Forgeworld for kits anymore - and since they said that, they haven't, and have plenty of opportunities to do so. The Crusher being in the codex is very, very unlikely. Add to that the fact that the wrecker ball biomorph appears in the rulebook, and it also seems unlikely that the kit is going away.

It's worth noting the Stonecrusher was never meant to have its own rules - the Carapace was there to represent the Thronback biomorph, the only carapace GW didn't put in the Carnifex box, and the Crushing Claws were meant to represent the ability to take 2 sets, something GW got rid of in 5th edition. The Wrecker Ball biomorph was meant to represent the Cities of Death Wrecker strategem (I think it was Wrecker - the strategem that made a unit better at wrecking buildings).

Given all of that, it's perfectly reasonable GW could bring back the dual Crushing Claw and Thornback options, maybe even the Wreckerball, which would give the kit its original purpose back, and not cannibalise FW's kits, since the Stonecrusher doesn't exist anymore as a unit, and those options can be converted anyway.

In regards to FNP I always thought it was a perfectly suitable rule for synapse. Last codex everything was eternal warrior to represent the effect the Hive Mind has on the swarm but FNP I think is a much more suitable special rule for this. I don't think it would be too broken if Synapse Creatures had FNP (5+) and non synapse creatures in synapse range had FNP (6+). You could even give certain special characters like the Swarm Lord FNP (4+) to have him stand out even further.

I could get on board with the above but it must be realize that GW is working towards simplifying rules...especially army wide rules...and so it would probably be an all or nothing kkind of thing. Though I Believe it's going to be a psychic power, if not only a LD test. LD 10 barely cares but it has the chance of failure.

IB is where I reckon things will change. I don't think feed will stay rage personally...it's too useful to be "the downside"...as lurk has the downside of not being able to get within range if weapons. In factt, I don't see any of the current USRs to be feed-like.

I'd actually prefer a return to the old Instinctive Behaviour. Pass a LD check or fall back to the nearest Synapse Creature, showing them seeking out the hive minds leadership rather than simply going rogue.

and free to act as you wish without synapse on the board?

 ductvader wrote:
and free to act as you wish without synapse on the board?

... no. Then you would fall back as per normal, towards your table edge.

I started 40k about 8 months ago. I started with DE and switched to nids about a month later. I'd like to see them get some movement rules to speed them up since the majority of the units can't take pods, also some special assaulting from deep strike options would be nice. I'd like to see a reason for me to actually buy a carnifex model as i have no plans to ever get one the way they are now. Most importantly some help to the swarm lord, like an invul outside of cc. He has so much great fluff but using an assault based hq in a shooting based edition leaves some gaps. I still bring him over a second flyrant, i don't care if its not competitive, i just like his fluff.

The Swarmlord does not need a buff at all. if you're finding he's vulnerable to incoming ranged fire, he has an option - take Tyrant Guard.

As he is, he's a fantastic army buffer via psychic powers and innate abilities like handing out furious charge and boosting the reliability of reserves, on top of being a Hive Tyrant with a 4++ assault save that hands out instant death attacks for gaks and giggles, making him not only the best batstick in the game, but a fantastic support character.

Everything needs a weakness. His isn't assault - the only unit capable of semi reliably beating him is an MSS Necron Lord, and if the Swarmlord gets Iron Arm, it takes 3 consecutive turns to beat himself to death (which is hugely unlikely). It's not at support - he hands out plenty of bonuses. It's not as a psyker, considering he's a mastery level 2 model (which will probably go up in the next book).

His weakness is range. If you want to kill him, shoot him. If you want to protect him from that, pay for Tyrant Guard.

 -Loki- wrote:
The Swarmlord does not need a buff at all. if you're finding he's vulnerable to incoming ranged fire, he has an option - take Tyrant Guard.

As he is, he's a fantastic army buffer via psychic powers and innate abilities like handing out furious charge and boosting the reliability of reserves, on top of being a Hive Tyrant with a 4++ assault save that hands out instant death attacks for gaks and giggles, making him not only the best batstick in the game, but a fantastic support character.

Everything needs a weakness. His isn't assault - the only unit capable of semi reliably beating him is an MSS Necron Lord, and if the Swarmlord gets Iron Arm, it takes 3 consecutive turns to beat himself to death (which is hugely unlikely). It's not at support - he hands out plenty of bonuses. It's not as a psyker, considering he's a mastery level 2 model (which will probably go up in the next book).

His weakness is range. If you want to kill him, shoot him. If you want to protect him from that, pay for Tyrant Guard.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Give him one guard and he should be alright, give him two and he'll make it to any combat and make your enemies cry, give him three...well if you got the points why not!


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 ductvader wrote:
I could get on board with the above but it must be realize that GW is working towards simplifying rules...especially army wide rules...and so it would probably be an all or nothing kkind of thing. Though I Believe it's going to be a psychic power, if not only a LD test. LD 10 barely cares but it has the chance of failure.

IB is where I reckon things will change. I don't think feed will stay rage personally...it's too useful to be "the downside"...as lurk has the downside of not being able to get within range if weapons. In factt, I don't see any of the current USRs to be feed-like.

I think they will go back to just falling back if out of synapse and a LD test fails. Like mentioned they're trying to make things simpler and with an army that already has a lot of quirks this may be an easy way to do it. Frankly i like the flavor different IB gives and would like if it stayed around

You know, I really, really, want to talk about my 2 favorite units, the Tyranid Warrior Prime and Parasite of Mortrex. and at the end, I will stand on my soapbox and blow some minds.

Tyranid Prime:
I really just like how he augments the warrior broods. Now, going with what others have said, he really needs to be allowed to join warriors in a pod. Also, he needs options to join a Shrike group. That way, it is viable to make a true shrike deathstar.

Parasite of Mortrex:
This guy really needs some love when it comes to it's babies. It should extend it's improved synapse to Sky Slasher Swarms. It still only produces rippers, but now it makes it feasible to have an all Ripper Swarm army. Also, making swarms within synapse range scoring would also be nifty too.

And now, it is time to ascend the pulpit that would be my thoughts.

Fellow Tyranid organisms, it is time to bring up the topic of the one thing we are truly missing in our lives. The one thing that all others take for granted, and which we are denied on our weapons. Rapid-fire is a wonderful logistical nightmare which we are missing on our greatest weapon. I of course mean our true weapon of power, The Spinefist. This weapon is truly wonderful in its ability to twin-link shots, but it deserves more. Give us twin-linked rapid fire spinefists, or give us death!


Now on a serious note, anyone else thing we should have at least one rapid fire weapon. Personally, I'd want it to be the spinefist, just because of the fact that no one would ever dare call it a stupid weapon ever again. Also, options to take different things as troops. So you can have an all ripper army, all flying army, or even a completely TMC only army.

Spinefists aren't a stupid weapon...they just only only only belong on Raveners, rippers, and sky slashers.

The real weapon that needs your rapid fire ness is the spike rifle.

Tyranid swarms need to change...right now they're at the bottom of the barrel for swarms and don't really do much different from other troops besides be not scoring and die easier to templates. Honestly I'd like to see rippers and sky slashers regenerate wounds/bases every time they win a combat.

If the Tyranid Prime got wings that costed 25 pts (or less) I wouldn't need anything else in an update.

 ductvader wrote:
Spinefists aren't a stupid weapon...they just only only only belong on Raveners, rippers, and sky slashers.

The real weapon that needs your rapid fire ness is the spike rifle.

Tyranid swarms need to change...right now they're at the bottom of the barrel for swarms and don't really do much different from other troops besides be not scoring and die easier to templates. Honestly I'd like to see rippers and sky slashers regenerate wounds/bases every time they win a combat.

If the Tyranid Prime got wings that costed 25 pts (or less) I wouldn't need anything else in an update.

But...but...if it goes to the spike rifle, ripper swarms do not get shenanigans. After all, lets look at some of the fun things you could do with that upgrade. 9 deepstriking spinefist swarms shooting inside of rapid fire range magically produce 72 S3 twin-linked shots. That's perfectly fair for a 180pt unit. And I never said spinefists are stupid. I rather like them for my rippers.

 Unyielding Hunger wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
Spinefists aren't a stupid weapon...they just only only only belong on Raveners, rippers, and sky slashers.

The real weapon that needs your rapid fire ness is the spike rifle.

Tyranid swarms need to change...right now they're at the bottom of the barrel for swarms and don't really do much different from other troops besides be not scoring and die easier to templates. Honestly I'd like to see rippers and sky slashers regenerate wounds/bases every time they win a combat.

If the Tyranid Prime got wings that costed 25 pts (or less) I wouldn't need anything else in an update.

But...but...if it goes to the spike rifle, ripper swarms do not get shenanigans. After all, lets look at some of the fun things you could do with that upgrade. 9 deepstriking spinefist swarms shooting inside of rapid fire range magically produce 72 S3 twin-linked shots. That's perfectly fair for a 180pt unit. And I never said spinefists are stupid. I rather like them for my rippers.

Rapid fire doesn't belong on spine fists - the units that benefit from them most need to ASSAULT after shooting. H

I really just disagree because I don't want rippers to be shooty...look at the little snakes.,..if anything they should just drop the "guns" and give them "counts as" defensive grenades for increased survivability to overwatch with that 8" stealth bubble...and because honestly who out there is prepared to fight a bunch of snakes? No one...that's why they invented flamthrowers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I typically don't think rapid fire should be in this codex...I just don't see a tyranid deciding that shooting more is better than not eating the tasty treat.

Rippers definitely need something to make them worthwhile. I'd prefer something along the lines of drowning in bodies rather than being stealthy. Carpet isn't stealthy, and Rippers are always referred to as a living carpet.

Something like reducing the attacks of a unit they're in combat with by 1 would be nice, or even a Lashwhip effect, reducing enemy Initiative. It would give you a reason to take them and try to multiassault an enemy unit. It would show Rippers, while not particularly threatening themselves, can just swamp an enemy so they're too busy fighting off little mouths to notice a brood of Warriors pressing down on them with Boneswords.

In the same way, Sky Slashers need a role. Anti air would be fitting - suicide assault flyers, showing the Hive Mind using them as a way to bring down flyers simply by flying them into engine intakes and cockpits. Something like each base making its attacks, but only hitting flyers on a 6. Any 6's cause glancing hits, but cause wounds on the Sky Slashers with no saves allowed. So a brood would be able to, with weight of attacks, glance a flyer to death. Your opponent can stop this happening by focusing firing on the Sky Slashers which are otherwise pretty worthless targets, or otherwise have their flyers glanced to death.

That being said...I really think the Harpy needs to get a sky assault rule to rip fliers to shreds. And it's bound to happen if GW makes a model they want to sell...Once we get a whiff of which models are coming out we'll be able to guess rules fairly accurately.

I think rippers should be immune to instant death too...killing one snake doesnt kill 3...sure...the templates and blasts kill double already. Instant death doesn't make sense on swarms to me.

We're seeing rad pop up in most armies since GKs...maybe a unit in assault with rippers will count as being -1 T for the combat or one round?

Yeah, assaulting flyers should really be Tyranids 'thing'. I'm sure plenty of Chaos players will moan about the daemon princes, but Harpies and Harridans catching flyers mid flight and ripping them apart and Skyslashers suiciding into intakes just feels so Tyranid.

Though I still think we should get a Dactylis with flakk spores as well.

i would really love spinefists to be useful on gaunts in someway

 -Loki- wrote:
The Swarmlord...

While this is mostly spot-on, the only things I'd argue is that for his rather high point cost he should have ML3/4 and Eternal Warrior.
Armoured Shell is a definite no, he's already tough enough when he gets Endurance / Iron Arm.

 -Loki- wrote:
Rippers definitely need something to make them worthwhile. I'd prefer something along the lines of drowning in bodies rather than being stealthy. Carpet isn't stealthy, and Rippers are always referred to as a living carpet..

I think they need to play up the 'Ripper' aspect of them - lots of razor sharp teeth and claws tearing into weak spots. They should get Rending without a doubt. I also like the idea of reducing enemy attacks based on the size of the swarm, such as -1 A for every enemy is base contact with a Ripper base. It may be interesting if Rippers didn't use a FOC slot, but were instead either a 'bonus' unit like Techmarines based on the rest of the armies composition, or an upgrade for other units. So you could either take X Ripper bases for every Y troops choices, or buy them to join into a larger unit like Warriors / Hormagaunts as a melee buff.

 xttz wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:
The Swarmlord...

While this is mostly spot-on, the only things I'd argue is that for his rather high point cost he should have ML3/4 and Eternal Warrior.
Armoured Shell is a definite no, he's already tough enough when he gets Endurance / Iron Arm.

Iron Arm gives him Eternal Warrior, and he has an 85% to get it if he is (and he should be) taking Biomancy.

I can almost guaruntee that Hive Guard are going to be our tank hunters...I think they'll stay BS4 S8 Ignores cover with skyfire

Maybe similar to the hydra where is can only hit skimmers and fliers well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Rippers joining other units...with this pull from the front mechanic that gets too ridiculously good to ever be true.

Tyranids shouldn't have eternal warrior if only for fluff...they aren't eternal...they're consistently turned into goo and back again...even the superwarriors...if the hive mind wanted to make more swarmlords...they would...fortunately they know any more than one is overkill and a waste of resources for him to use

 ductvader wrote:
I can almost guaruntee that Hive Guard are going to be our tank hunters...I think they'll stay BS4 S8 Ignores cover with skyfire

Maybe similar to the hydra where is can only hit skimmers and fliers well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Rippers joining other units...with this pull from the front mechanic that gets too ridiculously good to ever be true.

Tyranids shouldn't have eternal warrior if only for fluff...they aren't eternal...they're consistently turned into goo and back again...even the superwarriors...if the hive mind wanted to make more swarmlords...they would...fortunately they know any more than one is overkill and a waste of resources for him to use

I say they'll have the standard s8 ground missile and s7 flakk missile, with the flakk being a 10pt upgrade. (hive guard)

As for eternal warrior - yes the tyranids re-digest all biomatter including their own, but the fact remains that to perform in a combat environment efficiently, the ground troops need to be *tough* and *resilient* enough to wade through enemy fire and get into combat. That is what the eternal warrior rule would represent - much as it did in the 4th ed book, it would simply allow synapse creatures to be protected from weapons double their toughness. Force weapons, remove from play effects, etc would still work on them.

I'm currently hoarding warriors, as they're not very good in the current meta. Given the cyclical nature of codices, and the fact that 3 of these things retail for $47, i'm going on the assumption that they WILL be better in some form in a new updated book. Whether it be due to the eternal warrior rules hinted at (basically Instant Death would cause D3 wounds instead), or getting T5 standard (making a tyranid prime T6) something will probably be done to make them better. At least, i hope, or i'm goign to have about 30 useless warriors for ANOTHER 4+ years LOL

I think you're very right on the Warrior front...the only way I can work them now is hive commander outflanking them with devourers and rending claws

As for eternal warrior...i like my fluff and would rather see "immune to instant death" like the BT wargear (mantle or carapace or something) that makes their ICs immune. Yeah, I know it's essentially the same thing.

I think that with the release of marines and eldar vehicle-ness...those hive guard will stay S8...even against fliers. It would work to even out the meta...and GW is trying to constantly evolve and even this game out...a more even game means more people will diversify and buy more things...meaning more money.

I've honestly only ever used rippers we back when i started in 4th. They just seemed like a waste of points now but then again i've not really gave them much thought so maybe i'm wrong. When i played necrons the scarab swarms were super usefull and could even munch their way through a take with the right rolls. Are rippers just as good? how do you play them usually?

Rippers are nowhere near just as good.

My rippers take toxin sacs because they usually get assaulted. Rippers aren't really worth it over termagants or hormagaunts.

My Sky slashers on the other hand...I will kit to all h***...if you want to create a threat vector, give them spinefists OR give them adrenal glands and toxin sacs...they'll usually get the charge and will dole out some serious pain to anything they hit...

With everyone taking single shot weapons for flier hunting there is an absence of flamers and templates...making swarms more viable.

 tetrisphreak wrote:
At least, i hope, or i'm goign to have about 30 useless warriors for ANOTHER 4+ years LOL

Between my old white plastic warriors, my metal warriors, and my current plastic warriors I have around 50... Made me sad the first time I fielded 27 against a long fang spam list and put them on the shelf.

Bust em out now...S8 doesn't really exist outside of melta guns, Lances, and IG right now.

Multiwound T4 is loving the current meta.

There's still plenty of S8+ in my meta. I've been thinking about it though.

 ductvader wrote:
Bust em out now...S8 doesn't really exist outside of melta guns, Lances, and IG right now.

Multiwound T4 is loving the current meta.

Unless you're playing DE and SW...

had an idea last night at the FLGS...

Gargoyles could have a suicide attack against an enemy flyer. Up to 5 gargoyles atracking a flyer glance it on 6s. 5-10 glance on 5s pen on 6s. Basically, like pigeons at an airport, they blind the pilot, jam the engines, or rip up the wings.

and how many gargoyles would you lose in this suicide attack?

While it would be fluffy it wouldn't be a useful rule (similar to the Trygon tunnel now...). Gargoyles have better things to do than hunt Flyers.

well... suicide would usually mean the models have killed themselves, so... all of them?

And I'm proposing it to be a prime role for gargoyles, but if one was being hounded by a nasty flyer, sacrificing some gargoyles wouldn't be too bad.

So sacrifice 60-80 points for a 2/3 chance to do nothing? That isn't a good trade off.
edit: To clarify, Skyfire on Tyrants is almost enough - giving Harpies something to do against Air that'd be plenty. Having some emergency "SAVE YOURSELF" move for gargoyles just doesn't seem good to me.

If this was to ever be a thing...and I doubt it would...I would make it so you only take as many wounds as the amount of hits you cause...striking on rear armor of course.

-Loki- wrote: Iron Arm gives him Eternal Warrior, and he has an 85% to get it if he is (and he should be) taking Biomancy.

ductvader wrote:
Tyranids shouldn't have eternal warrior if only for fluff...they aren't eternal...they're consistently turned into goo and back again...even the superwarriors...if the hive mind wanted to make more swarmlords...they would...fortunately they know any more than one is overkill and a waste of resources for him to use

tetrisphreak wrote:
As for eternal warrior - yes the tyranids re-digest all biomatter including their own, but the fact remains that to perform in a combat environment efficiently, the ground troops need to be *tough* and *resilient* enough to wade through enemy fire and get into combat. That is what the eternal warrior rule would represent

It's more due to the fact that virtually every other codex gets at least one expensive, unique unit with Eternal Warrior... Calgar, Mephiston, Phoenix Lords, Drahzar, even Yarrick. Then you have what is basically a walking tank worth more points than a Land Raider, and yet he can die to a single poke from a force weapon. It just seems odd to me that the pinnacle of Tyranid evolution is more vulnerable to being instantly struck down than a geriatric with a pointy hat and stolen power claw.

ductvader wrote:I can almost guaruntee that Hive Guard are going to be our tank hunters...I think they'll stay BS4 S8 Ignores cover with skyfire

I think they'll be flyer-hunters. S7 Heavy 2 Skyfire, probably with a points hike. Up until now GW have been putting pretty ridiculous points costs on most things with skyfire, especially if it's a model that already existed from an earlier codex. Just look at the flakk missile options for DA / CSM / Eldar.
Hive Guard were one of the best-selling Tyranid models in 5th, so GW won't be expecting to sell too many more under a new codex.

Don't Tau get Skyfire on basically everything, and for silly cheap?

I don't mind the idea of hive guard getting Skyfire, or adding flakk spores to biovores or dactylis, but I echo the earlier statements of turning the harpy into a flyer-killer. As it stands, it's a FMC that can't shoot flyers. Take away the blast guns and trade them for some cool Vector Strike bonuses.

With what the Riptide and Wraithknight bring, I'd be surprised if the Carnifex didn't get cheaper.

 tetrisphreak wrote:

As for eternal warrior - yes the tyranids re-digest all biomatter including their own, but the fact remains that to perform in a combat environment efficiently, the ground troops need to be *tough* and *resilient* enough to wade through enemy fire and get into combat. That is what the eternal warrior rule would represent - much as it did in the 4th ed book, it would simply allow synapse creatures to be protected from weapons double their toughness. Force weapons, remove from play effects, etc would still work on them.

I'm currently hoarding warriors, as they're not very good in the current meta. Given the cyclical nature of codices, and the fact that 3 of these things retail for $47, i'm going on the assumption that they WILL be better in some form in a new updated book. Whether it be due to the eternal warrior rules hinted at (basically Instant Death would cause D3 wounds instead), or getting T5 standard (making a tyranid prime T6) something will probably be done to make them better. At least, i hope, or i'm goign to have about 30 useless warriors for ANOTHER 4+ years LOL

The majority of your army is not getting Eternal Warrior. There's a reason why Daemons lost theirs.

 Wilytank wrote:
With what the Riptide and Wraithknight bring, I'd be surprised if the Carnifex didn't get cheaper.

All Tyranid MC's need price drops aside from the Tervigon. They're all just too expensive for what they do.

As I said before, I'd be pretty happy with Tyranid MC's staying as effective as they are, but getting a lot cheaper. Instead of 1 Carnifex like now, you get a brood. Instead of 1 Trygon, Mawloc or Tyrannofex, you get a pair. The old Tyranid method of 'send more bodies'. The idea of making Tyranid MC's super powerful doesn't fit the fluff. They're meant to be powerfulm, but they generally are already, just too expensive. They're meant to also be numerous, which significant price drops would enable.

 Wilytank wrote:
With what the Riptide and Wraithknight bring, I'd be surprised if the Carnifex didn't get cheaper.

 tetrisphreak wrote:

As for eternal warrior - yes the tyranids re-digest all biomatter including their own, but the fact remains that to perform in a combat environment efficiently, the ground troops need to be *tough* and *resilient* enough to wade through enemy fire and get into combat. That is what the eternal warrior rule would represent - much as it did in the 4th ed book, it would simply allow synapse creatures to be protected from weapons double their toughness. Force weapons, remove from play effects, etc would still work on them.

I'm currently hoarding warriors, as they're not very good in the current meta. Given the cyclical nature of codices, and the fact that 3 of these things retail for $47, i'm going on the assumption that they WILL be better in some form in a new updated book. Whether it be due to the eternal warrior rules hinted at (basically Instant Death would cause D3 wounds instead), or getting T5 standard (making a tyranid prime T6) something will probably be done to make them better. At least, i hope, or i'm goign to have about 30 useless warriors for ANOTHER 4+ years LOL

The majority of your army is not getting Eternal Warrior. There's a reason why Daemons lost theirs.

Synapse creatures have never been the "majority" of the army. If Synapse critters do get EW, I have no doubt Warriors will go back to being elites instead of troops again.

Highly unlikely...especially if bugs keep access to eternal warrior through iron arm anyways.

Running multiwound T4 is more about target saturation than general survivability...fill the field with T6 3+ creatures and various T4 3+ or worse save creatures...and laugh as your opponent cant handle them all.

I have a particularly mean list with 18 raveners and 9 shrikes that wrecks some serious face,

 ductvader wrote:
Highly unlikely...especially if bugs keep access to eternal warrior through iron arm anyways.

Running multiwound T4 is more about target saturation than general survivability...fill the field with T6 3+ creatures and various T4 3+ or worse save creatures...and laugh as your opponent cant handle them all.

I have a particularly mean list with 18 raveners and 9 shrikes that wrecks some serious face,

I agree that T4 non-EW warriors wouldn't be too bad if they were cheaper by at least 10 points or so.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
Highly unlikely...especially if bugs keep access to eternal warrior through iron arm anyways.

Running multiwound T4 is more about target saturation than general survivability...fill the field with T6 3+ creatures and various T4 3+ or worse save creatures...and laugh as your opponent cant handle them all.

I have a particularly mean list with 18 raveners and 9 shrikes that wrecks some serious face,

I agree that T4 non-EW warriors wouldn't be too bad if they were cheaper by at least 10 points or so.

Or a few points cheaper, with 3+/4+ saves for Warriors/Shrikes so that they're less susceptible to massed anti-infantry fire. The main issue with warriors isn't so much the ID thing alone, it's that after upgrades you have what is usually a 40-45pt model that loses a wound to every ~4 bolter hits on average, compared to ~6 hits for MEQs. When you couple that with krak missiles and the like removing 3 wounds from the unit per hit (1 for MEQs), it gets pretty hard to keep this expensive unit alive.

 xttz wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
Highly unlikely...especially if bugs keep access to eternal warrior through iron arm anyways.

Running multiwound T4 is more about target saturation than general survivability...fill the field with T6 3+ creatures and various T4 3+ or worse save creatures...and laugh as your opponent cant handle them all.

I have a particularly mean list with 18 raveners and 9 shrikes that wrecks some serious face,

I agree that T4 non-EW warriors wouldn't be too bad if they were cheaper by at least 10 points or so.

Or a few points cheaper, with 3+/4+ saves for Warriors/Shrikes so that they're less susceptible to massed anti-infantry fire. The main issue with warriors isn't so much the ID thing alone, it's that after upgrades you have what is usually a 40-45pt model that loses a wound to every ~4 bolter hits on average, compared to ~6 hits for MEQs. When you couple that with krak missiles and the like removing 3 wounds from the unit per hit (1 for MEQs), it gets pretty hard to keep this expensive unit alive.

I agree to this some what. I personally still run warriors in almost every army build. My friends curse at their many wounds and they can be kitted to fit many battle field roles. But yes unless you're just running a basic warrior their cost gets up there. I think a slightly lower cost would be good but frankly I think they're a great unit already

 -Loki- wrote:

 Wilytank wrote:
With what the Riptide and Wraithknight bring, I'd be surprised if the Carnifex didn't get cheaper.

All Tyranid MC's need price drops aside from the Tervigon. They're all just too expensive for what they do.

That's what I'm saying. Carnifexes would probably be better off if they were something like 80-90 points a pop, and that's probably being generous. Trygons be like 160 and Tyrannofexes around 200.

 Wilytank wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

 Wilytank wrote:
With what the Riptide and Wraithknight bring, I'd be surprised if the Carnifex didn't get cheaper.

All Tyranid MC's need price drops aside from the Tervigon. They're all just too expensive for what they do.

That's what I'm saying. Carnifexes would probably be better off if they were something like 80-90 points a pop, and that's probably being generous. Trygons be like 160 and Tyrannofexes around 200.

Agree with all those point values. Hive Tyrants can stay the price they are, BUT, they need to be on par with the new Daemon Prince in terms of stats (WS 9, I8, etc.)

Buhhhhhhh...720 points...I'll take 9 fexes in 1000 points.

Add a Prime and 40 gants

Anyone else think you should able to take like 2 or 3 Tyranid Primes for every HQ slot, kinda like Daemon Heralds?

Yes. That'd be great... I would like it if they could deploy separately, as well.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

 Wilytank wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

 Wilytank wrote:
With what the Riptide and Wraithknight bring, I'd be surprised if the Carnifex didn't get cheaper.

All Tyranid MC's need price drops aside from the Tervigon. They're all just too expensive for what they do.

That's what I'm saying. Carnifexes would probably be better off if they were something like 80-90 points a pop, and that's probably being generous. Trygons be like 160 and Tyrannofexes around 200.

Agree with all those point values. Hive Tyrants can stay the price they are, BUT, they need to be on par with the new Daemon Prince in terms of stats (WS 9, I8, etc.)

That's a bit low for Carnifexes. Honestly I'd go 100-110, with Armoured Shell as an option at +20. A 50-60pt drop would be golden for Carnifexes.

As for Hive Tyrants - they're fine even compared to Daemon Princes. A Daemon Prince with power armour (to match the 3+ of the Tyrant) is 5 points more than the Tyrant. While it has better BS, WS, I and A, the Tyrant comes standard with Mastery Level 1 and 2 Psychic powers and has 1 better Toughness. A Daemon prince needs to pay 25pts for Mastery Level 1, and only gets 1 power, needing 50pts to get ML 2 and 2 powers. At that point, it's much more expensive than the Tyrant. Add to that the Tyrant, right now, comes standard with a Bonesword and Lashwhip, making all enemies in B2B I1 and instant killing with each hit if enemies fail a Ld check, and the Tyrant stacks quite favorably to the Daemon Prince.

The only thing I'd say the Tyrant needs comparatively to the Daemon prince is cheaper Wings (drop to the Daemon Prince cost) and Armoured Shell (10pts off would be good). Maybe even allow you to combine them if you want to spend that much on your Tyrant.

Nope Nope Nope...most AA weaponry in this game is AP4 or worse...allowing the beast a 2+ and wings make him nearly invulnerable for not as many points as he needs to be. I think that's something that needs to stay an either or option.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But yeas...overall I think tyrants are costed pretty perfecctly. The upgrades could lose some points too...especially wings and regeneration...I actually think the 2+ should stay at 35-40 for going on a badass beast with T6 and 4 wounds.

Fair point on AA weapons being AP4, but that's not really how you deal with FMCs. You gound them, then hit them with everything, since you can't count on a lucky 1 hit kill while it's swooping.

And in that case, it's in a worse position than a Tyrant with Armoured Shell, because it's likely down in enemy lines, getting hit with everything they have, then likely eating a followup assault. Armoured Shell wouldn't be too bad on a Flyrant.

Something funny that just popped into my head; Moving, charging, and assaulting Spore Pods.

I hope the Carnifex broods get a rule similar to the new Steelcrusher rule for the Hierodule Swarms.

How's that work?

 ductvader wrote:
How's that work?

At the minute it is, when ever the formation charges a super heavy or walker, roll on the chart, and +1 to the result per model in the formation.

(paraphrasing the rules here)

So roll a D6

1 - No effect, begin the fight sub phase.

2-5 - Staggering Impact - The Vehicle being charge recieves a penetrating hit, resolve the hit, then begin the fight sub-phase.

6 - Thunderous Impact - Causes D3+1 glances, plus some other apoc stuff etc.

freaking nuts...that would sell the fexes that nobody bought last time around...besides the ones that were converted to tervigons



Automatically Appended Next Post:
I just really want carnifexes to have rampage...they're the perfect unit for it

Or for living battering ram to actually hit vehicles backward after assault

The only trouble with a similar rule in regular 40k is that charging more than 1 Fex into a non-superheavy is basically overkill. They already get an S9 Hammer of Wrath hit before any regular attacks land.

I wouldn't be surprised if Living Battering Ram just made their HoW attack S10 instead, giving them a bit more of an edge against AV14.

Oh...I like it...or rending to represent the crushing force...its one attack so its not ridiculously good...but its still there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
All right guys...lets put the codex together and send it to GW...then we'll demand money...good plan?

I'll take the FAST section.

 ductvader wrote:
Oh...I like it...or rending to represent the crushing force...its one attack so its not ridiculously good...but its still there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
All right guys...lets put the codex together and send it to GW...then we'll demand money...good plan?

I'll take the FAST section.

I like this idea. I like it a lot

 Hyrule Hero wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
Oh...I like it...or rending to represent the crushing force...its one attack so its not ridiculously good...but its still there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
All right guys...lets put the codex together and send it to GW...then we'll demand money...good plan?

I'll take the FAST section.

I like this idea. I like it a lot

Unfortunately, GW has a horrid reputation for throwing good ideas out of the window because"their development team has it under control"

Eldercaveman wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
How's that work?

At the minute it is, when ever the formation charges a super heavy or walker, roll on the chart, and +1 to the result per model in the formation.

(paraphrasing the rules here)

So roll a D6

1 - No effect, begin the fight sub phase.

2-5 - Staggering Impact - The Vehicle being charge recieves a penetrating hit, resolve the hit, then begin the fight sub-phase.

6 - Thunderous Impact - Causes D3+1 glances, plus some other apoc stuff etc.

So...without breaking any rules on dakka, would you happen to know how the malanthrope broods have changed?

 tetrisphreak wrote:

Eldercaveman wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
How's that work?

At the minute it is, when ever the formation charges a super heavy or walker, roll on the chart, and +1 to the result per model in the formation.

(paraphrasing the rules here)

So roll a D6

1 - No effect, begin the fight sub phase.

2-5 - Staggering Impact - The Vehicle being charge recieves a penetrating hit, resolve the hit, then begin the fight sub-phase.

6 - Thunderous Impact - Causes D3+1 glances, plus some other apoc stuff etc.

So...without breaking any rules on dakka, would you happen to know how the malanthrope broods have changed?

No. I didn't get this through any crazy rumours or anything like that, I simply zoomed in and read it. http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/New_Stuff/IMPERIAL_ARMOUR_APOCALYPSE.html

Granted, I do have really good eyes.

The changes to the Bio-titan look awesome as well!