countbenignito wrote:

fe40k wrote:
Do other armies lose out on traits because "it's thematic"? No. But Orks do... [and yes, I understand that some factions (marines) don't even get traits on everything; but that's an entirely separate issue].

The Triarch Praetorians, Triarch Stalker and C'tans don't access to theirs for thematic reasons.

This seems like a pretty intense victim complex tbh

No faction traits on Triarch units is a total mistake, and has made those models unplayable. We can both agree to that, right?

In that case perhaps its a less of "Boohoo no *sniff* faction traits on muh dudes" and more of a sigh as it could kill them competitively

 Eonfuzz wrote:


No faction traits on Triarch units is a total mistake, and has made those models unplayable. We can both agree to that, right?

In that case perhaps its a less of "Boohoo no *sniff* faction traits on muh dudes" and more of a sigh as it could kill them competitively

I'd debate that it's a mistake. It perfectly fits the way their role is described in the background. Is it GW's intention to make sure every single unit in their books are able to stand the heat of ultra-competitive matched play, or to give rules that best reflect the armies that inhabit the universe they've created.

countbenignito wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:


No faction traits on Triarch units is a total mistake, and has made those models unplayable. We can both agree to that, right?

In that case perhaps its a less of "Boohoo no *sniff* faction traits on muh dudes" and more of a sigh as it could kill them competitively

I'd debate that it's a mistake. It perfectly fits the way their role is described in the background. Is it GW's intention to make sure every single unit in their books are able to stand the heat of ultra-competitive matched play, or to give rules that best reflect the armies that inhabit the universe they've created.

They could EASILY do both. If a unit has a big but fluffy drawback, all they need to do is drop its points and keep the rules the same.

Sometimes that may not be the best thing for the game, as it might be more fun to allow the combo (or whatever) and require the high point costs.

But it is a simple fix and could be done in 5 minutes if GW gave a damn.

 JimOnMars wrote:

countbenignito wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:


No faction traits on Triarch units is a total mistake, and has made those models unplayable. We can both agree to that, right?

In that case perhaps its a less of "Boohoo no *sniff* faction traits on muh dudes" and more of a sigh as it could kill them competitively

I'd debate that it's a mistake. It perfectly fits the way their role is described in the background. Is it GW's intention to make sure every single unit in their books are able to stand the heat of ultra-competitive matched play, or to give rules that best reflect the armies that inhabit the universe they've created.

They could EASILY do both. If a unit has a big but fluffy drawback, all they need to do is drop its points and keep the rules the same.

Sometimes that may not be the best thing for the game, as it might be more fun to allow the combo (or whatever) and require the high point costs.

But it is a simple fix and could be done in 5 minutes if GW gave a damn.

Not as long as a part of the hobby is to find every single broken combo or loophole in the rules with no regard to the background.

I wonder if theres a looted baneblade in the chapter approved..

I would really hope they would include the one looted fits all type rules where you just take another vehicle and modify it in an orky way. If they release something only available to leman russ tanks it would be stupid...but VERY like GW to do so.

I am not sure it was brought up yet and if it says anything about GW and Orks, but the buggies sprues in Speed Freeks are from 2018 ...
Does it often happen that GW releases sprues the same year they are made?

fe40k wrote:


Do other armies lose out on traits because "it's thematic"? No. But Orks do... [and yes, I understand that some factions (marines) don't even get traits on everything; but that's an entirely separate issue].

Yes they do, don't get a persecution complex just because you do not know the other factions well enough.

You may need to wait for a Gretchin Revolutionary Committee for the grots to get their own traits (just as Kroot are waiting for a Kroot Mercs release that they may or may not ever get).

A nice compromise might have been a Stratagem called "Mascots", where you could select a unit with the GRETCHIN keyword and for the duration of the battle they could benefit from Klan Kultur. You could easily incorporate such Stratagems to all factions.

 nflagey wrote:
I am not sure it was brought up yet and if it says anything about GW and Orks, but the buggies sprues in Speed Freeks are from 2018 ...
Does it often happen that GW releases sprues the same year they are made?

Very unusual but could be just that the final mould was cast this year. Design could be years old.

 nflagey wrote:
I am not sure it was brought up yet and if it says anything about GW and Orks, but the buggies sprues in Speed Freeks are from 2018 ...
Does it often happen that GW releases sprues the same year they are made?

Custodes sprues from the start of this year have 2018 on them, but they would have been made much sooner. The year they stamp is the planned release date when production is being done. Occasionally that's subject to change.

 xttz wrote:

 nflagey wrote:
I am not sure it was brought up yet and if it says anything about GW and Orks, but the buggies sprues in Speed Freeks are from 2018 ...
Does it often happen that GW releases sprues the same year they are made?

Custodes sprues from the start of this year have 2018 on them, but they would have been made much sooner. The year they stamp is the planned release date when production is being done. Occasionally that's subject to change.

In that case they must have changed it as at one point you could have even 2 year difference and I doubt anything would really change THAT much.

 Spreelock wrote:
I wonder if theres a looted baneblade in the chapter approved..

There used to be a skullhamma battlefortress available from FW, which was just a looted baneblade.

 Eonfuzz wrote:

countbenignito wrote:

fe40k wrote:
Do other armies lose out on traits because "it's thematic"? No. But Orks do... [and yes, I understand that some factions (marines) don't even get traits on everything; but that's an entirely separate issue].

The Triarch Praetorians, Triarch Stalker and C'tans don't access to theirs for thematic reasons.

This seems like a pretty intense victim complex tbh

No faction traits on Triarch units is a total mistake, and has made those models unplayable. We can both agree to that, right?

In that case perhaps its a less of "Boohoo no *sniff* faction traits on muh dudes" and more of a sigh as it could kill them competitively

In IG codex, a lot of units (like ratlings, ogryns, and a lot of other auxilia) doesn't get Regiments for fluff reasons either, and yet, somehow you see them on lots of competitive tables.

Yeah, looks like victim complex, sadly. Especially seeing none of the ork units even saw table testing yet...

 Irbis wrote:

 Eonfuzz wrote:

countbenignito wrote:

fe40k wrote:
Do other armies lose out on traits because "it's thematic"? No. But Orks do... [and yes, I understand that some factions (marines) don't even get traits on everything; but that's an entirely separate issue].

The Triarch Praetorians, Triarch Stalker and C'tans don't access to theirs for thematic reasons.

This seems like a pretty intense victim complex tbh

No faction traits on Triarch units is a total mistake, and has made those models unplayable. We can both agree to that, right?

In that case perhaps its a less of "Boohoo no *sniff* faction traits on muh dudes" and more of a sigh as it could kill them competitively

In IG codex, a lot of units (like ratlings, ogryns, and a lot of other auxilia) doesn't get Regiments for fluff reasons either, and yet, somehow you see them on lots of competitive tables.

Yeah, looks like victim complex, sadly. Especially seeing none of the ork units even saw table testing yet...

Eldar pheonix lords
Space marine vehicles
Dark Eldar mercenaries
IG regimental advisors+tempestus
Tau axuiliaries
Necron triarchs

definitely just orks guys pack it up gw hates us and only us.

So, here's a question for Speedfreeks, I figure I'm gonna a playback game at least once...
Shoukd I assemble a Power Klaw or Big Choppa Nob, and should I paint them Death Skulls or Evil Suns?

I think the klaw may be the better choice for death skulls for the reroll to damage and hits. The reroll slightly increases the potential for the weapon and it becomes an obvious choice for spending your unit's free rerolls due it's higher potential damage output.

That said, I think the big Choppa is outstanding for 5 points. At 8 points savings compared to the klaw and with flat 2 damage, it really is a great choice for either, but especially for evil suns.

According to Bob at War of Sigmar (their review is up) the gunwagon is unfortunately indeed BS5+ not BS4+ as rumoured early. He clarifies that in the comment section

https://war-of-sigmar.herokuapp.com/bloggings/3391

Maybe a little late, but Lady Atia has posted her Codex Orks Review on War of Sigmar.

Right that does it. Time for a #Mektoo movement.

 Rinkydink wrote:
Right that does it. Time for a #Mektoo movement.

Spoiler:

I already wrote about it on GW's FB.
I know I said wait until the codex is released, but right now the word is out there, and if we mention it before it gets released it might impact their sales enough for them not to pull gak like this.

There is legitimately a lot of annoying stuff in this codex, even if it's alright or even exciting overall.

Having to pick a clan is exciting, eye opening and also annoying in that it shuts out certain named characters, strategems, and pigeonholes you into certain builds while impacting your build flexibility. Once painted you're kind of stuck with it. I guess this is supposed to be super awesome and kewl or something, but in practical terms it is incredibly annoying, even if it is a convention at this point. Clan soups will be impacted by Waaagh, transport restrictions, Speedwaaagh, etc.

Removal of numerous utility characters like big mek with KFF, bikerboss, painbiker, is continually frustrating when theorycrafting builds. Having to buy an index just to support them is annoying. Possibility of losing support is annoying. No points adjustments ever are annoying. It's like legacy support that is soon to be on life support before the inevitable cut, probably never to be seen again.

Points increases on warboss, painboy, and boys are frustrating.

Over all it's an exciting book that carries serious restrictions that will result in more confined, structured builds based around min maxing clan rules.

I'm finding myself grumbling each time I think about a certain list build and how clan rules and omissions have affected certain things.

I don't think you guys are looking hard enough.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Rinkydink wrote:
Right that does it. Time for a #Mektoo movement.

Spoiler:

I already wrote about it on GW's FB.
I know I said wait until the codex is released, but right now the word is out there, and if we mention it before it gets released it might impact their sales enough for them not to pull gak like this.

You wanted to affect this, you are waaaaay too late. It should have been done like year ago when it became apparent this reality is very high chance. But nope. People here too said "Oh GW wouldn't drop that many characters and you can build MA warboss out of box etc etc". But GW has been straight honest all the time what kits are dropping out yet people ignore it. (wonder if GW people have ever considered poker as a life career? Since they seem to have apt on having people not believe them when they are 100% honest they could utilize that in poker to deadly effect)

Actually 1 year ago would have been too late. Would have to be more like 2-3+ years ago when GW came up with their no model, no rule policy.

 TedNugent wrote:
Once painted you're kind of stuck with it.

Or you just ignore the paint scheme and do what you want.
Think about it this way - if you have to use a paint scheme to use a klan, how are you going to make your own klan?
I want to do my own thing, not copy what's in the book.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Rinkydink wrote:
Right that does it. Time for a #Mektoo movement.

Spoiler:

I already wrote about it on GW's FB.
I know I said wait until the codex is released, but right now the word is out there, and if we mention it before it gets released it might impact their sales enough for them not to pull gak like this.

You wanted to affect this, you are waaaaay too late. It should have been done like year ago when it became apparent this reality is very high chance. But nope. People here too said "Oh GW wouldn't drop that many characters and you can build MA warboss out of box etc etc". But GW has been straight honest all the time what kits are dropping out yet people ignore it. (wonder if GW people have ever considered poker as a life career? Since they seem to have apt on having people not believe them when they are 100% honest they could utilize that in poker to deadly effect)

Actually 1 year ago would have been too late. Would have to be more like 2-3+ years ago when GW came up with their no model, no rule policy.

Perhaps, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't receive an earful. If we put our foot down now maybe they won't be so stupid in the future.

I'm having a tough choises between Evil sunz and goffs. I'm probably building a Green tide, with multiple blobs (3-5) of 30 boyz, either tellyporting or jumping at early game.

tneva82 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Rinkydink wrote:
Right that does it. Time for a #Mektoo movement.

Spoiler:

I already wrote about it on GW's FB.
I know I said wait until the codex is released, but right now the word is out there, and if we mention it before it gets released it might impact their sales enough for them not to pull gak like this.

You wanted to affect this, you are waaaaay too late. It should have been done like year ago when it became apparent this reality is very high chance. But nope. People here too said "Oh GW wouldn't drop that many characters and you can build MA warboss out of box etc etc". But GW has been straight honest all the time what kits are dropping out yet people ignore it. (wonder if GW people have ever considered poker as a life career? Since they seem to have apt on having people not believe them when they are 100% honest they could utilize that in poker to deadly effect)

Actually 1 year ago would have been too late. Would have to be more like 2-3+ years ago when GW came up with their no model, no rule policy.

Well yes. (Although there was a GK character without a model, so not unprecedented.) But feedback is feedback. I prefer to look forward and hope that new things happen in campaign box. My Mek above will have a custom deflekor, powered axe etc. etc. So will remain in my army regardless of when, not if, (as it's going to happen...) the index is no longer supported.

I'm having a tough choises between Evil sunz and goffs. I'm probably building a Green tide, with multiple blobs (3-5) of 30 boyz, either tellyporting or jumping at early game.

Goff trait is useless if you fail your charge rolls. Evil sunz

 Spreelock wrote:
I'm having a tough choises between Evil sunz and goffs. I'm probably building a Green tide, with multiple blobs (3-5) of 30 boyz, either tellyporting or jumping at early game.

If teleporting, command points are at a premium.

That may restrict the number of skarboys.

Evil Suns are faster, and they more reliably charge. Goffs really must utilize skarboys strategem. It's too good not to, and is probably the only thing that makes them a legitimate steal at 7 ppm

That said, you are going to need lots of command points to get them where they need to be, and they are just as squishy as normal boys. So start thinking about what your budget is as far as fitting in weirdboys for da jump, and building your army with enough CPs for tellyporting plus enough for the skarboys upgrade.

Or, just make mass shoota boys and make them all evil sunz.


Either way, survivability relative to points cost is going to be an issue. People were already seeing mobs of 90 getting blown off the board at 6 points per model by static gunlines. So getting your deepstrikes in and reliable charges will be important.

Personally, I considered and I am not going this route. I decided on MSUs and transports. Nobs saw significant price drops, and they do better in transports. I want to exploit this to the fullest. I don't like boys at 7 points per model. Not at all. I'm going to be experimenting with grots+nob lists with death skulls for objective secured.

Even baseline nobs are 1-1 on wounds per point with Ork boys, with the benefit of having a 4+ armor save. Go check out the codex reviews. Nobs can now get a free dual Choppa for 5 attacks on a 14 ppm model.

That said, skarboys are murder and death. It is hard to overstate how scary a 30 man mob is. I would recommend seeing how many you can fit in a list that can deepstrike those mobs reliably. The math for how much damage they can do in a single round of combat is stunning.

 greggles wrote:

I'm having a tough choises between Evil sunz and goffs. I'm probably building a Green tide, with multiple blobs (3-5) of 30 boyz, either tellyporting or jumping at early game.

Goff trait is useless if you fail your charge rolls. Evil sunz

Goff trait is useless regardless. Goff strategem skarboys is incredible. It gives crucial strength 5 on a unit that can be throwing out literally buckets of dice.

For one thing, it doubles their damage output against toughnesa 8 models like imperial knights.

Provided that you can get a slow as molasses 5" movement speed 30 man blob into combat, they are so far beyond any of the other clans in sheer damage output.

Considering most people will have multiple clans which most should require some type of troop choice...
There is no need to pigeon hole yourself with all your Boyz with 1 clan. Feel free to use 30-40 Goff skar boys that you da jump.
Followed by 30-60 evil sun shoota boys with a 10-20 model Gretchin screen.
Or whateva your heart fancies...
Remember to save 3cp so you can green tide your Boyz back to full strength after your oppponent wastes a turn or 2 shooting them.

The pictures of Looted Tanks being in 2018's Chapter Approved... I'm excited for them, even if they are limited to friendlier game... I just hope they aren't as limited in options as the option to VDR Chaos Landraiders in the previous CA.

 TedNugent wrote:
There is legitimately a lot of annoying stuff in this codex, even if it's alright or even exciting overall.

Having to pick a clan is exciting, eye opening and also annoying in that it shuts out certain named characters, strategems, and pigeonholes you into certain builds while impacting your build flexibility. Once painted you're kind of stuck with it. I guess this is supposed to be super awesome and kewl or something, but in practical terms it is incredibly annoying, even if it is a convention at this point. Clan soups will be impacted by Waaagh, transport restrictions, Speedwaaagh, etc.

Removal of numerous utility characters like big mek with KFF, bikerboss, painbiker, is continually frustrating when theorycrafting builds. Having to buy an index just to support them is annoying. Possibility of losing support is annoying. No points adjustments ever are annoying. It's like legacy support that is soon to be on life support before the inevitable cut, probably never to be seen again.

Points increases on warboss, painboy, and boys are frustrating.

Over all it's an exciting book that carries serious restrictions that will result in more confined, structured builds based around min maxing clan rules.

I'm finding myself grumbling each time I think about a certain list build and how clan rules and omissions have affected certain things.

This 100%.

Losing classic models (that occupy valuable spaces in the roster) in the codex, which means potentially losing them if the index's ever get cut; points increases on models that clearly don't deserve it; structured lists via klan rules and assignments (which itself isn't a new 8th concept, but having too many units Kultur locked (Gretchin of all kinds, Flash Gits, etc)), and so many other things.

The book will be functional, and likely even competitive - but, will it be fun? Certainly some things will be, such as seeing ork tellyporta teknology finally given the rules it deserves on the tabletop - but the units that'll be actually usable without handicapping yourself; well, we shall see.

I'm excited to list build - but I'm not blind to various codex based issues and concerns.

 TedNugent wrote:
There is legitimately a lot of annoying stuff in this codex, even if it's alright or even exciting overall.

Having to pick a clan is exciting, eye opening and also annoying in that it shuts out certain named characters, strategems, and pigeonholes you into certain builds while impacting your build flexibility. Once painted you're kind of stuck with it. I guess this is supposed to be super awesome and kewl or something, but in practical terms it is incredibly annoying, even if it is a convention at this point. Clan soups will be impacted by Waaagh, transport restrictions, Speedwaaagh, etc.

This has been the case with every codex released in 8th - named characters being locked to certain keywords etc... not sure why you thought Orks would be any different?

I've been preparing for this since 8th. I had every unit painted a different clan. Majority Death Skulls and Evil Suns with a theme of looted vehicles, so not too badly represented, but I'm gonna repaint my Shoota Boyz as Evil Sunsz and Goff slugga Boyz as Death Skulls. I also have Snake bite Wyrdboys which I think I'll just bring along with 30 Gretchin. Psychic powers affect all friendly Ork models right? I can Jump some Death Skulls, and just advance Evil Suns behind them.

people probably expected orks to be different because 3 of our most commonly used HQs vanished - MA boss, bike boss, and footmek KFF.

What they left us were very few named characters that are super gimicky and not really useful except for being stuck to a certain unit type, ghaz (which while in the same category, his rules are universal atleast), and a warboss. Cause who the heck uses MA meks?

Could certainly be worse though, your HQ selection could be like Dark Eldar's, which get's screwed over by the "rule of 3" if you want to take multiple Kabal, Wych Cult or Coven detachments due to each only having a single generic HQ. Hell, all Kabals have are the generic Archon and that's it iirc.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Could certainly be worse though, your HQ selection could be like Dark Eldar's, which get's screwed over by the "rule of 3" if you want to take multiple Kabal, Wych Cult or Coven detachments due to each only having a single generic HQ. Hell, all Kabals have are the generic Archon and that's it iirc.

I can definitely appreciate the DE HQ debacle. GW could easily make a couple of really interesting characters for you, and should.

What's weird about orks is that they kill units that are wildly popular and in widespread use. It's as if GW decided to get rid the Archon, too. They see a lot of people using it, so their first thought is "kill it! kill it!!!"

I really wonder which unit will be the next to get the axe.

 TedNugent wrote:

Goff trait is useless regardless. Goff strategem skarboys is incredible. It gives crucial strength 5 on a unit that can be throwing out literally buckets of dice.

For one thing, it doubles their damage output against toughnesa 8 models like imperial knights.

Provided that you can get a slow as molasses 5" movement speed 30 man blob into combat, they are so far beyond any of the other clans in sheer damage output.

Main thing for goff trait would be trukk boyz where 12(minus casualties) don't throw that impressive number of attacks so no more buckets of dice. Exploding 6's help there then.

Then again trukk boyz suck. They really should make trukk boyz into their own datasheet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gungo wrote:
Considering most people will have multiple clans which most should require some type of troop choice...
There is no need to pigeon hole yourself with all your Boyz with 1 clan. Feel free to use 30-40 Goff skar boys that you da jump.
Followed by 30-60 evil sun shoota boys with a 10-20 model Gretchin screen.
Or whateva your heart fancies...
Remember to save 3cp so you can green tide your Boyz back to full strength after your oppponent wastes a turn or 2 shooting them.

Da jump skarboyz suffer from unreliable charge. Even with boost for 'ere we go it's still 58% chance. 42% chance the unit will simply be deleted without killing single model.

Oh and does the green tide work on completely dead unit or is it like tide of traitor? If fully killing prevents that strategem don't count it. 40 boyz is dead easy to remove so the 40 skarboyz will be dead.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
people probably expected orks to be different because 3 of our most commonly used HQs vanished - MA boss, bike boss, and footmek KFF.

What they left us were very few named characters that are super gimicky and not really useful except for being stuck to a certain unit type, ghaz (which while in the same category, his rules are universal atleast), and a warboss. Cause who the heck uses MA meks?

Well, in the "how to fix orks" thread there were tons of ideas for rules to give MA meks to make them feel unique... like allowing him to pimp one vehicle in your army to be his master-piece.

Can't bring a unit back that was Mobbed Up.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
people probably expected orks to be different because 3 of our most commonly used HQs vanished - MA boss, bike boss, and footmek KFF.

What they left us were very few named characters that are super gimicky and not really useful except for being stuck to a certain unit type, ghaz (which while in the same category, his rules are universal atleast), and a warboss. Cause who the heck uses MA meks?

The shrinking of the ork HQ section is actually pretty interesting. Since I started in fifth, we had:

5th-7th: No more Wazdakka, Old Zogwart
7th-8th index: No more painboy, painboy on bike, Mad Dok Grotsnik (all moved to elite)
8th index - 8th codex: No more warboss on bike, foot mek, mek on bike, all character HQs become subfaction locked so you only get one of Ghaz, Snikrot, Badrukk or Zagstruk. Added trike.

That's 9 fewer choices for HQs in an ork army between fifth and now, assuming you don't detachment-mix to get multiple characters, which I guess I'll have to do at this point.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
people probably expected orks to be different because 3 of our most commonly used HQs vanished - MA boss, bike boss, and footmek KFF.

What they left us were very few named characters that are super gimicky and not really useful except for being stuck to a certain unit type, ghaz (which while in the same category, his rules are universal atleast), and a warboss. Cause who the heck uses MA meks?

The shrinking of the ork HQ section is actually pretty interesting. Since I started in fifth, we had:

5th-7th: No more Wazdakka, Old Zogwart
7th-8th index: No more painboy, painboy on bike, Mad Dok Grotsnik (all moved to elite)
8th index - 8th codex: No more warboss on bike, foot mek, mek on bike, all character HQs become subfaction locked so you only get one of Ghaz, Snikrot, Badrukk or Zagstruk. Added trike.

That's 9 fewer choices for HQs in an ork army between fifth and now, assuming you don't detachment-mix to get multiple characters, which I guess I'll have to do at this point.

Lots of Factions detachment-mix. That's pretty normal these days. Sautekh Necrons are good at shooting and Novokh Necrons are good at melee. I put my shooty units in one detachment and my stabby units in another. Be prepared to do similar with Orks.

Anyone confirm if Kommandos are stuck with upgrading to a PK Nob only?

Also, are Burnaz, still a thing for Kommandos?

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Anyone confirm if Kommandos are stuck with upgrading to a PK Nob only?

Also, are Burnaz, still a thing for Kommandos?

The video I watched said PK only. I imagine burnas are gone from Kommandos. I'd expect to lose any option not in the box.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Anyone confirm if Kommandos are stuck with upgrading to a PK Nob only?

This messes with Forgeworld, intentionally or not (their Kommando kit has a Nob with Big Choppa).

 Rinkydink wrote:
Right that does it. Time for a #Mektoo movement.

Spoiler:

You can't see it, but the KFF on his back produces such a powerful and localised forcefield around the Mek himself that it's equivalent to Mega Armour.

 Graphite wrote:

You can't see it, but the KFF on his back produces such a powerful and localised forcefield around the Mek himself that it's equivalent to Mega Armour.

Yeah, that is the easiest fluff reason for playing a standard KFF Big Mek as the Mega-Armor version. If I play in a game where the standard version is not an option, that is how I plan to run it.

 docdoom77 wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Anyone confirm if Kommandos are stuck with upgrading to a PK Nob only?

Also, are Burnaz, still a thing for Kommandos?

The video I watched said PK only. I imagine burnas are gone from Kommandos. I'd expect to lose any option not in the box.

Can tankbusta nobz still take PK? I don't want to tear the PK conversion off of mine and attach the rokkit launcher.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Can't bring a unit back that was Mobbed Up.

does it specifically call out any unit mobbed up... if not you can always bring back 30 Boyz.

Why wouldn't you be able to bring back a mobbed up unit? The strategem says to bring it back at its starting strength, so that already prevents any mob up shenanigans.

 Graphite wrote:

 Rinkydink wrote:
Right that does it. Time for a #Mektoo movement.

Spoiler:

You can't see it, but the KFF on his back produces such a powerful and localised forcefield around the Mek himself that it's equivalent to Mega Armour.

I would just say the KFF is so sturdy that it basically doubles as mega armor. The mek just sort of balls up when he gets attacked. Like a turtle.

 TedNugent wrote:
There is legitimately a lot of annoying stuff in this codex, even if it's alright or even exciting overall.

Having to pick a clan is exciting, eye opening and also annoying in that it shuts out certain named characters, strategems, and pigeonholes you into certain builds while impacting your build flexibility. Once painted you're kind of stuck with it. I guess this is supposed to be super awesome and kewl or something, but in practical terms it is incredibly annoying, even if it is a convention at this point. Clan soups will be impacted by Waaagh, transport restrictions, Speedwaaagh, etc.

Removal of numerous utility characters like big mek with KFF, bikerboss, painbiker, is continually frustrating when theorycrafting builds. Having to buy an index just to support them is annoying. Possibility of losing support is annoying. No points adjustments ever are annoying. It's like legacy support that is soon to be on life support before the inevitable cut, probably never to be seen again.

Points increases on warboss, painboy, and boys are frustrating.

Over all it's an exciting book that carries serious restrictions that will result in more confined, structured builds based around min maxing clan rules.

I'm finding myself grumbling each time I think about a certain list build and how clan rules and omissions have affected certain things.

The clan things is great news. They should matter and people should have to choose. It’s a big bit of ORK background and should be represented. Modelling wise I’m seeing it as a challenge and am excited for it. I couldn’t put down a unit of my beloved evilsunz bikers and say they were goff or bloodaxe. It would be sacrilege.

Losing units they don’t make models for was bound to happen but it’s far from the end of the world. They still have rules and a legal way to use them. Even in “competitive” games. And more new units will be added. Points adjusts are nice to have but not essential as you will only ever have so many painboyz on bikes in an army. It sounds a lot like people building lists the way you seem to think will happen will be trying not to have fun and not take advantage of the flavour the codex can give to ORKS.

It could have been a lot worse. All prime ORKS and silliness.

So did we have confirmation that infantry from one kultur don't get to travel with another kultur's transport?

Andykp wrote:

 TedNugent wrote:
There is legitimately a lot of annoying stuff in this codex, even if it's alright or even exciting overall.

Having to pick a clan is exciting, eye opening and also annoying in that it shuts out certain named characters, strategems, and pigeonholes you into certain builds while impacting your build flexibility. Once painted you're kind of stuck with it. I guess this is supposed to be super awesome and kewl or something, but in practical terms it is incredibly annoying, even if it is a convention at this point. Clan soups will be impacted by Waaagh, transport restrictions, Speedwaaagh, etc.

Removal of numerous utility characters like big mek with KFF, bikerboss, painbiker, is continually frustrating when theorycrafting builds. Having to buy an index just to support them is annoying. Possibility of losing support is annoying. No points adjustments ever are annoying. It's like legacy support that is soon to be on life support before the inevitable cut, probably never to be seen again.

Points increases on warboss, painboy, and boys are frustrating.

Over all it's an exciting book that carries serious restrictions that will result in more confined, structured builds based around min maxing clan rules.

I'm finding myself grumbling each time I think about a certain list build and how clan rules and omissions have affected certain things.

The clan things is great news. They should matter and people should have to choose. It’s a big bit of ORK background and should be represented. Modelling wise I’m seeing it as a challenge and am excited for it. I couldn’t put down a unit of my beloved evilsunz bikers and say they were goff or bloodaxe. It would be sacrilege.

Losing units they don’t make models for was bound to happen but it’s far from the end of the world. They still have rules and a legal way to use them. Even in “competitive” games. And more new units will be added. Points adjusts are nice to have but not essential as you will only ever have so many painboyz on bikes in an army. It sounds a lot like people building lists the way you seem to think will happen will be trying not to have fun and not take advantage of the flavour the codex can give to ORKS.

It could have been a lot worse. All prime ORKS and silliness.

Problem with clan rules is same as it's always been with chapters etc. Go against fluff, stiffle creativity

mhalko1 wrote:
So did we have confirmation that infantry from one kultur don't get to travel with another kultur's transport?

Yes

tneva82 wrote:
Problem with clan rules is same as it's always been with chapters etc. Go against fluff, stiffle creativity

I don't know if you noticed, but we have (gasp!) 8th edition now. 7th ed nonsense pigeonholing you into whatever rigid mix your special snowflake decurion demanded is over, now you can bring whatever units you want that synergize with (quite broad and fluffy) faction tactics. The fact you choose to spam that one 0.00002% more efficient unit to the exclusion of all else while calling the rest of the book 'trash' or whatever, is your problem, and the resulting lack of fluff and fun is 100% on you, not on the game, or the writers, who did far better job this edition...

Decurions were truly awful, but I'm not going to sit here and pretend removal of footmek, bikemek or bikerboss aren't also awful.

There are upswings and downswings to the book. Comparing it to this or that is kind of not relevant to an individual point about an individual thing.

GW just needs to compromise and bring back options that lack a dedicated kit by providing official "how to convert" instructions.

A how to convert guide would defeat the purpose.

They just need to leave the options in the codex or at least update the index.

considering the format didnt change they should just flatout copy/paste it over, not even rebalancing it until either the format changes or they give us official kits.

Other than gear, which would change regardless, not like theyre gonna get a rules overhaul without a kit release.

Or better yet they could increase the points cost with no update like they did with Ghazghkull.

Lol lootas are 17 points

Wut

Do you think Looted Wagons will include Looted Knights?

 nflagey wrote:
Do you think Looted Wagons will include Looted Knights?

No. the article they posted today specifically said there would be 3 variants, Looted wagon (transport), looted tank (leman russ-ish), and the looted battlefortress (baneblade-ish).

Honestly, with a bit of creativity and da shootiest variant of the Battlewagon, one could make use of a converted "looted" Leman Russ.
It' probably necessary to add some other element in order to adjust for the difference in lenght.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:
Honestly, with a bit of creativity and da shootiest variant of the Battlewagon, one could make use of a converted "looted" Leman Russ.
It' probably necessary to add some other element in order to adjust for the difference in lenght.

Thing is in the 3rd edition codex, you could take a stright up looted lemun russ, whirlwind, basilisk (those were the days!) with ork BS and a few rules to make them flavorful. The idea of a "looted wagon" being a single entry with defined statline... might as well just be another ork vehicle. There is nothing looted about it, except the flavor text.

mhalko1 wrote:

 nflagey wrote:
Do you think Looted Wagons will include Looted Knights?

No. the article they posted today specifically said there would be 3 variants, Looted wagon (transport), looted tank (leman russ-ish), and the looted battlefortress (baneblade-ish).

what article??

 nflagey wrote:

mhalko1 wrote:

 nflagey wrote:
Do you think Looted Wagons will include Looted Knights?

No. the article they posted today specifically said there would be 3 variants, Looted wagon (transport), looted tank (leman russ-ish), and the looted battlefortress (baneblade-ish).

what article??

I think they might be talking about the latest White Dwarf, which had an entire article on it

 TedNugent wrote:
A how to convert guide would defeat the purpose.

They just need to leave the options in the codex or at least update the index.

Ideally what they should do is just keep selling the finecast models. Yes, they can be a pain, but I'd rather have them as an option than not have them.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Why wouldn't you be able to bring back a mobbed up unit? The strategem says to bring it back at its starting strength, so that already prevents any mob up shenanigans.

It specifically calls out units that you have Mobbed up as NOT an option.

By next year all codexes will be out, so they could just take all the leftovers from the index and put them in chapter approved

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
By next year all codexes will be out, so they could just take all the leftovers from the index and put them in chapter approved

Basis for this?

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
By next year all codexes will be out, so they could just take all the leftovers from the index and put them in chapter approved

That's what I'm hoping for as well. If enough people raise a ruckus over Mega Warboses and Big Meks, they might get a CA release. Not CA2018 sadly, for obvious reasons.

Its possible some of the removed stuff (due to no current models) may make a comeback later in a supplement of some sort with a new model or two (or at least characters)

 TedNugent wrote:
A how to convert guide would defeat the purpose.

They just need to leave the options in the codex or at least update the index.

I mean in a general sense. Bike warboss, mega armor warboss, bike painboy, etc. All sorts of things across multiple armies that do not actually have models could still get rules with an official 'how to convert' that references the GW models to use. It does not fit into 'no model, no rules' but it would sure make players happy, and definitely sell models.

leopard wrote:
Its possible some of the removed stuff (due to no current models) may make a comeback later in a supplement of some sort with a new model or two (or at least characters)

I think there is a good chance of that happening. I really can't see them not having a Warboss in Mega Armor, it's just too iconic IMO. It would also be weird not to have a regular Big Mek.

They might come back as something close but not quite the same as what came before, like how the Deffkilla Wartrike is similar to a Warboss on Warbike but not the same. Plus it needs an overdone name, so instead of Warboss in Mega Armor we'll get something dumb like Supa-Mega Overboss in Powa-charga Plate.

ETA: I wouldn't be surprised if if Big Gunz, KFF BM and some of the biker characters are gone for good though.

Megaboss has a nice ring to it.

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:

leopard wrote:
Its possible some of the removed stuff (due to no current models) may make a comeback later in a supplement of some sort with a new model or two (or at least characters)

I think there is a good chance of that happening. I really can't see them not having a Warboss in Mega Armor, it's just too iconic IMO. It would also be weird not to have a regular Big Mek.

They might come back as something close but not quite the same as what came before, like how the Deffkilla Wartrike is similar to a Warboss on Warbike but not the same. Plus it needs an overdone name, so instead of Warboss in Mega Armor we'll get something dumb like Supa-Mega Overboss in Powa-charga Plate.

ETA: I wouldn't be surprised if if Big Gunz, KFF BM and some of the biker characters are gone for good though.

I for one feel that Big Gunz, KFF BM are just just too iconic too...

We used these models for twenty years or so.

I know that owning 2 batteries of each type of gunz with the optionnal grots etc,
I feel pretty pissed by their dismissal.

KFF BM is also among the most simple conversions possible:
-Buy Mek model
-Glue KFF from Meganobz kit to back of Mek
-Done

It wouldn't look great without a bit of extra work but an entirely serviceable model from modern kits that just involves gluing part A to model B. And GW would be able to sell two boxes in the process.

or do what i did and used a ton of random bitz i had lying around...


Some burna bits, biker bits, grotprod bits, and wire.
Incidentally this is like an 8yr old model, bout ayear after i started playing lol. So while a bit crude, still gets the job done

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
KFF BM is also among the most simple conversions possible:
-Buy Mek model
-Glue KFF from Meganobz kit to back of Mek
-Done

It wouldn't look great without a bit of extra work but an entirely serviceable model from modern kits that just involves gluing part A to model B. And GW would be able to sell two boxes in the process.

Granted.
But useless from now on.

Since GW has decided that this figure of yours should be shelved
with Big Gunz and others models of ours
because of their "no models, no rules" crap.

To speak frankly I do not care about competitive play or even rule
details as much as there are rules to play the actual models
I own and paid for. Same for FW. But they, at the very
least released a few datasheet to cover.

The codex content seems pretty interesting,
probably the best orks codex we got for ages.
Should they have kept all the figures in.

 Irbis wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Problem with clan rules is same as it's always been with chapters etc. Go against fluff, stiffle creativity

I don't know if you noticed, but we have (gasp!) 8th edition now. 7th ed nonsense pigeonholing you into whatever rigid mix your special snowflake decurion demanded is over, now you can bring whatever units you want that synergize with (quite broad and fluffy) faction tactics. The fact you choose to spam that one 0.00002% more efficient unit to the exclusion of all else while calling the rest of the book 'trash' or whatever, is your problem, and the resulting lack of fluff and fun is 100% on you, not on the game, or the writers, who did far better job this edition...

Decurions etc might be over but it's still unfluffy. The traits are invariably unfluffy as hell. Evil suns that are all about slow stuff? Blood axe trait that is biggest help for gunlines? Raven guard that turned assault infiltrating specialists into gunlines? White scars that encourage avoiding tactical marines(core of white scars)? The chapter/etc rules are NOT fluffy and they pigeonhole armies into rigid mixes. That is not good. Decurions not good(wasn't btw fan of those ever so why you even bring them up? MASSIVE reading comprehension failure but maybe I'm talking with kindergarden kid so failure of english reading is acceptable. Or maybe not native english speaker with poor grasp of english?)

The chapter/regiment/etc rules are PIGEONHOLING THINGS AND STIFLING CREATIVY! If you can't grasp that simple concept problem is on you.

If you want codex that encourages fluffy and varied lists chapter/etc traits have to go. Simple fact. Pigeonholing leads to non variety and the traits are never balanced as they are all same cost. Already it's easy to see which ork clans are king and which will be ignored. Just like all other factions. And you can see how they pigeonhole armies into forces that don't follow ork fluff at all.

By the way, do we know if the More Dakka stratagem is in the shooting phase only? Because otherwise you could use it to massively improve your overwatch right?

Pretty sure i saw in a battle report its when it shoots not just the shooting phase.

so yea looks to work in OW

So i have seen a few times now... okay its mainly goatboy so what else is new... but that mek gunz DO benefit from kulturs since they are a mixed keyword unit. Not sure if this is true or not but i added the exact quote and imagine he has gotten to see the ork codex.

"They have changed to Autohit – and since it is a mixed unit they still get the kultur"
He is talking about the traktor kannons here.

We have seen the datasheet. It has one line for keywords. Not two lines. One for gretchin, one for gun.

1 keyword line, all models share those keywords, all thus have keyword gretchin.

Why trust what somebody says when you can trust what you see in the codex page?

Do we know yet if we still need to take Zhadsnark to make warbikers troops or does something else give that ability now?

tneva82 wrote:
We have seen the datasheet. It has one line for keywords. Not two lines. One for gretchin, one for gun.

1 keyword line, all models share those keywords, all thus have keyword gretchin.

Why trust what somebody says when you can trust what you see in the codex page?

Because i havent seen these codex pages yet. And i havent seen the gretchen restriction rule in writing yet either. People quote a YouTube video but then dont post the screenshots into this thread.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
By next year all codexes will be out, so they could just take all the leftovers from the index and put them in chapter approved

Very doubtful, that's not the company GW is anymore. Players aren't allowed to have creativity because it potentially allows independent sculptors to ALSO make money.

KheldarUK wrote:
Do we know yet if we still need to take Zhadsnark to make warbikers troops or does something else give that ability now?

That's not even a thing in 8th edition, you just take a specialized detachment if you want to spam a certain FOC slot.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

KheldarUK wrote:
Do we know yet if we still need to take Zhadsnark to make warbikers troops or does something else give that ability now?

That's not even a thing in 8th edition, you just take a specialized detachment if you want to spam a certain FOC slot.

Thanks for the reply, I'm still getting up to speed - I understand you can take them in a detachment, but you'd still be penalised when it comes to objective holding right? Objective secured only applies to only Troops, presumably Zogg Off as well?

 TedNugent wrote:
Or better yet they could increase the points cost with no update like they did with Ghazghkull.

Lol lootas are 17 points

Wut

Lootas are going to be one of the most popular units. Take of that what you will.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 TedNugent wrote:
Or better yet they could increase the points cost with no update like they did with Ghazghkull.

Lol lootas are 17 points

Wut

Lootas are going to be one of the most popular units. Take of that what you will.

I think bad moons lootas are looking pretty strong if you invest enough poiints and CP into them. A squad of 10 and another of 15 mob up, put More Dakka strat on them and fire away. Then use the Showin' Off strat to fire again. You might have to CP the amount of shots you get. That's potentially 75 shots, rerolling 1's generating extra shots on 5's & 6's. Shooting twice. And you can move them beforehand if you wish since More Dakka just cancels that out anyways. Put a 30 man grot unit in front of them to give their squishy statline some protection and that's suddenly a real scary thing on the table.

PiñaColada wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 TedNugent wrote:
Or better yet they could increase the points cost with no update like they did with Ghazghkull.

Lol lootas are 17 points

Wut

Lootas are going to be one of the most popular units. Take of that what you will.

I think bad moons lootas are looking pretty strong if you invest enough poiints and CP into them. A squad of 10 and another of 15 mob up, put More Dakka strat on them and fire away. Then use the Showin' Off strat to fire again. You might have to CP the amount of shots you get. That's potentially 75 shots, rerolling 1's generating extra shots on 5's & 6's. Shooting twice. And you can move them beforehand if you wish since More Dakka just cancels that out anyways. Put a 30 man grot unit in front of them to give their squishy statline some protection and that's suddenly a real scary thing on the table.

And put those grots in a snakebite detachment for fearless.

PiñaColada wrote:
I think bad moons lootas are looking pretty strong if you invest enough poiints and CP into them. A squad of 10 and another of 15 mob up, put More Dakka strat on them and fire away. Then use the Showin' Off strat to fire again. You might have to CP the amount of shots you get. That's potentially 75 shots, rerolling 1's generating extra shots on 5's & 6's. Shooting twice. And you can move them beforehand if you wish since More Dakka just cancels that out anyways. Put a 30 man grot unit in front of them to give their squishy statline some protection and that's suddenly a real scary thing on the table.

Yeah, spend all that CP to try to make it a good unit. Often when I look at these discussions I wonder where people are getting all these CPs from to be able to afford to spend it on every little thing. For my own part, I'll be getting probably all of 6 CP from detachments in most cases.

Lootas just are too damn random (at least I seem to recall seeing that they're still 1-3 shots), and too pricey for that reason since they don't have survivability either. Even grot shield requires CP in addition to the points cost of the grots themselves. And from what I've seen of the wording of grot shield, it seems to be unit-specific. So use it on the lootas, and the enemy can just choose to wreck other things instead with the rest of his units, unless you spend even more CP. Sure, you protected that one unit, but that's about it. Overall in your example it is a lot of points and CP. A lot of units can be "scary" if you pump them up with all that.

Oh, and as for the mob up? You can't just mob up two units together like that, they have the be under half strength - and I imagine that being the case you can't end up with a unit with more models than the unit entry allows (which has been 15 for lootas).

I have 3 or 4 boxes of lootas myself - although only a few finished - and would love to use them as the models are quite nice... but the fact they didn't drop the points cost nor get much in the way of buffs to justify the old cost, I suppose they won't necessarily be all that often used.

 tvih wrote:

Yeah, spend all that CP to try to make it a good unit. Often when I look at these discussions I wonder where people are getting all these CPs from to be able to afford to spend it on every little thing. For my own part, I'll be getting probably all of 6 CP from detachments in most cases.

Lootas just are too damn random (at least I seem to recall seeing that they're still 1-3 shots), and too pricey for that reason since they don't have survivability either. Even grot shield requires CP in addition to the points cost of the grots themselves. And from what I've seen of the wording of grot shield, it seems to be unit-specific. So use it on the lootas, and the enemy can just choose to wreck other things instead with the rest of his units, unless you spend even more CP. Sure, you protected that one unit, but that's about it. Overall in your example it is a lot of points and CP. A lot of units can be "scary" if you pump them up with all that.

Oh, and as for the mob up? You can't just mob up two units together like that, they have the be under half strength - and I imagine that being the case you can't end up with a unit with more models than the unit entry allows (which has been 15 for lootas).

I have 3 or 4 boxes of lootas myself - although only a few finished - and would love to use them as the models are quite nice... but the fact they didn't drop the points cost nor get much in the way of buffs to justify the old cost, I suppose they won't necessarily be all that often used.

Lots wrong here.

Mob up is 10 or more plus 10 or fewer.

You need to rethink your lists then. 5 CP can be had for 250 points. The lists with Lootas have 16 to 18 CP.

Loota survivability is easily addressed by grot shield. Yes I protected that "one" high powered unit that benefits from force multipliers more. I'm sure you'll get tons of mileage shooting grots and boyz.

I think if and only if you used the showing off on 3 shots Lootas could be a centerpiece unit in a bad moons detachment.

That said, their damage output isn't that amazing even under ideal circumstances, and they now have three liabilities instead of just 2:

A) cost
B) random shot count
C) survivability

Grot shield cost CP, showing off costs CP, mob rule costs CP, more Dakka costs CP. So if you roll a 1 on shot count, you're SOL.

 TedNugent wrote:
I think if and only if you used the showing off on 3 shots Lootas could be a centerpiece unit in a bad moons detachment.

That said, their damage output isn't that amazing even under ideal circumstances, and they now have three liabilities instead of just 2:

A) cost
B) random shot count
C) survivability

Grot shield cost CP, showing off costs CP, mob rule costs CP, more Dakka costs CP. So if you roll a 1 on shot count, you're SOL.

Depends on timings.

Grot shield only costs when needed. Showing off only gets used when advantageous. Mob up is only 1 CP once. More Dakka could occur before the shots roll.

In an army revolving around this unit you'll want 3 to 4 CP for Grot Shield (by turn 5 it's mop up time and they have 48" guns), 1 for Mob Up, 2-3 for reroll shot count, 2 to 4 for Showing Off, 2 to 4 for MD. So, 10 to 16, which is easy enough to achieve.

The only other CP I'd use is for a 3D6 charge from a Blood Axe Gorkanaut.

tneva82 wrote:

 Irbis wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Problem with clan rules is same as it's always been with chapters etc. Go against fluff, stiffle creativity

I don't know if you noticed, but we have (gasp!) 8th edition now. 7th ed nonsense pigeonholing you into whatever rigid mix your special snowflake decurion demanded is over, now you can bring whatever units you want that synergize with (quite broad and fluffy) faction tactics. The fact you choose to spam that one 0.00002% more efficient unit to the exclusion of all else while calling the rest of the book 'trash' or whatever, is your problem, and the resulting lack of fluff and fun is 100% on you, not on the game, or the writers, who did far better job this edition...

Decurions etc might be over but it's still unfluffy. The traits are invariably unfluffy as hell. Evil suns that are all about slow stuff? Blood axe trait that is biggest help for gunlines? Raven guard that turned assault infiltrating specialists into gunlines? White scars that encourage avoiding tactical marines(core of white scars)? The chapter/etc rules are NOT fluffy and they pigeonhole armies into rigid mixes. That is not good. Decurions not good(wasn't btw fan of those ever so why you even bring them up? MASSIVE reading comprehension failure but maybe I'm talking with kindergarden kid so failure of english reading is acceptable. Or maybe not native english speaker with poor grasp of english?)

The chapter/regiment/etc rules are PIGEONHOLING THINGS AND STIFLING CREATIVY! If you can't grasp that simple concept problem is on you.

If you want codex that encourages fluffy and varied lists chapter/etc traits have to go. Simple fact. Pigeonholing leads to non variety and the traits are never balanced as they are all same cost. Already it's easy to see which ork clans are king and which will be ignored. Just like all other factions. And you can see how they pigeonhole armies into forces that don't follow ork fluff at all.

No I think you will find you are wrong here. The way you play the klan rules is unfluffy and Uncreative. How are evil suns about slow stuff? Their trait works better on vehicles. It’s all about making things go faster. It doesn’t stop you from picking what ever units you want. None of them restrict unit choices. You need to stop worrying so much about winning and focus on enjoying the game. None of the rules you quote force you into doing anything at all. Therefore there is no PIGEONHOLING AND STIFLING.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 TedNugent wrote:
I think if and only if you used the showing off on 3 shots Lootas could be a centerpiece unit in a bad moons detachment.

That said, their damage output isn't that amazing even under ideal circumstances, and they now have three liabilities instead of just 2:

A) cost
B) random shot count
C) survivability

Grot shield cost CP, showing off costs CP, mob rule costs CP, more Dakka costs CP. So if you roll a 1 on shot count, you're SOL.

Depends on timings.

Grot shield only costs when needed. Showing off only gets used when advantageous. Mob up is only 1 CP once. More Dakka could occur before the shots roll.

In an army revolving around this unit you'll want 3 to 4 CP for Grot Shield (by turn 5 it's mop up time and they have 48" guns), 1 for Mob Up, 2-3 for reroll shot count, 2 to 4 for Showing Off, 2 to 4 for MD. So, 10 to 16, which is easy enough to achieve.

The only other CP I'd use is for a 3D6 charge from a Blood Axe Gorkanaut.

Is it worth that CP cost? There are powerful strategems in the 'dex.

For one thing, you would want another viable target for showing off.

Second, if you have to go 2-3 turns without rolling a 3 on shot count, you're holding on to CPs, allowing the enemy to dictate the pace, while this massive points invested unit craters your list.

Assuming the stars align, and you get the shots out, you're getting 25x3 shots. 5's to hit. If you popped more dakka, you'd get another 1/3 of those recycled. Show off gets you a second round.

So if we're assuming - perfection - , that's 25x3x2 = 150 shots, 25 rerolls, which generate approx 8 additional hits. 50 base hits, which generate additional shots, for a total of 58. Those 58 new shots would generate 9 rerolls, for a total of 19 hits plus 3 hits from the rerolls for a total of 22 hits. So overall you would get 80 hits.

From those 80 hits, if you were shooting at, let's say a juicy target like an Imperial Knight. You'd be wounding on 5's since it's toughness 8, and then you'd get an ion shield at a 4++. So *.33*.5 or 13.2 unsaved wounds at 2 damage apiece or 26.2 damage.

So you could conceivably oneshot a knight. For 425 points, plus grot shields, for however many CPs it takes to pop both more dakka and showing off after a mob up on 25 lootas.

so i have the november whitedwarf. and there is an battle report between tau and codex orks. this post is for those who haven't read it yet or those who want to discus it.

here are the lists (was done in PL, no wargear was listed)


its a kustom scenario. there is a mekshop on the board and the orks only have to get 1 of 2 secret ork vehicles to use the mekshop and then make it to the tau's board edge and they would win (the 2 secret vehicles were the battlewagon and the squigbuggy).

so, the ork player has his flyers in reserves, everything else deploys in transports on the line...and his wartrike is the closest model as far as i can tell. luckily the orks had 1st turn. all ork units rush forward. despite being badmoons the ork player focuses on speed...im not kidding.

the article said this "the orks gave little thought to shooting the tau, preferring instead to drive straight at them." this is not going to go well.

tau 1st turn was spent mostly shooting at the warttrike since the the ork player charged it as far as possible towards the tau gunline.with the combo of a 4up invul and a 5up fnp the wartrike suffered a whole round of shooting from half the tau army. very survivable but only had 1 wound left. ended up killing himself from overwatch in the charge in the next turn.

the next few turns go like this. tau shoot, things die, ork player does little to keep his units within the range of the 2 kffs he has. he gets a few units in combat and or course he wrecks because hes fighting tau. alot of the orks shooting is focused toward the worst units to try to shoot at...all the stealth suits/ghostkeels.

ork player is able to get one of his surviviing secret vehicles in contact with the mekshop (squigbuggy) but since the objective is to use the mekshop then the squigbuggy had to spend a turn doing nothing and thus got shot up when the tau player could deduce that was the secret ork vehicle.

end of round 5. well, no surprise the ork player is almost tabled. tau win.

some thoughts. ork player obviosly wanted to play evilsunzs but badmons was the only things availabe at the studio that also had all the new buggies to test out.

tau players most valuable model was the stormsurge.

orks players mvp was the wazbom blastajet.....no surprise the only thing that performed well was a shooting focused unit in a badmoons list...and the tau never shot at it. (it killed a ghostkeel after its drones were destroyed, and it chipped off the last wounds on a riptide).

i dont remember any mention of any ork stratagems used in the whole battle report, not surprising since technically he barely had any cp. all the while they talked about the tau player using cool tau strats.

so yet again a battle report that utterly fails at hyping me up for the orks. without utilizing any stratagems and barely using the clan trait it was like index orks with some new models and some pts decreases vrs codex tau played by an obviously more competent player.

It's incredible there are as many Ork players as there are, given GW seemingly loves to take every opportunity to remind people how bad they can be with poor play.

Its as if they enjoy making our army look like garbage.

Ugh that battle report is epic fail on so many levels starting from the scenario. Okay GW is not good at making scenarios as the rulebook shows but really? Have to use mek shop and then get out? with flimsy ork vehicles? When it will be obvious which to shoot out the second somebody tries to use mekshop? Lol.

Okay WD BR's are never good but making custom scenario that was designed from the get-go for orks to lose is pretty funny!

Well there goes the idea that BR's are rigged in new army's favour ;-) This was rigged for orks to automatically lose...

And not just scenario but then lists...Orks are rigged for using multiple detachments with cheap core so 13 CP should be standard yet the guy runs up what 5CP total....Bejezus.

tneva82 wrote:
Ugh that battle report is epic fail on so many levels starting from the scenario. Okay GW is not good at making scenarios as the rulebook shows but really? Have to use mek shop and then get out? with flimsy ork vehicles? When it will be obvious which to shoot out the second somebody tries to use mekshop? Lol.

Okay WD BR's are never good but making custom scenario that was designed from the get-go for orks to lose is pretty funny!

Well there goes the idea that BR's are rigged in new army's favour ;-) This was rigged for orks to automatically lose...

also the mekshop was right infront of the tau gun line. it was a long drive through enemy fire just to get to it.

geargutz wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Ugh that battle report is epic fail on so many levels starting from the scenario. Okay GW is not good at making scenarios as the rulebook shows but really? Have to use mek shop and then get out? with flimsy ork vehicles? When it will be obvious which to shoot out the second somebody tries to use mekshop? Lol.

Okay WD BR's are never good but making custom scenario that was designed from the get-go for orks to lose is pretty funny!

Well there goes the idea that BR's are rigged in new army's favour ;-) This was rigged for orks to automatically lose...

also the mekshop was right infront of the tau gun line. it was a long drive through enemy fire just to get to it.

Lol. Even better.

Well I know I won't even bother to read that one. It's so lopsided scenario that you would need top-level tournament list to have serious shot at winning it. And I dont' talk about ork tournament list but the ones that can actually win tournaments. The scenario is so ridiculously lopsided in favour of the tau it's unbelievable.

I love custom scenarios and for me best way to play 40k but sheesh this was epic fail on so many levels.

I like stratagems giving back "new tactics" and all, but some things should've stayed special rules, IMO. That existed years ago already. Bilowing Smoke for bikes at least. Maybe Grot Shield.

And why have batreps without players commenting on their tactics, movement diagrams etc.. Even a full-on narrative based on the game would be better than the current setup of a few sentences of incomplete narrative and a few snippets of "highlights".

The Armageddon mega batrep is a great example of a narrative one, the ones where they had tourney players usually were good examples of "why do X at Y time".

PS: Only one more day until WAAAGH! Still excited, I mean, it's still probably better than the last few editions

 Binabik15 wrote:
I like stratagems giving back "new tactics" and all, but some things should've stayed special rules, IMO. That existed years ago already. Bilowing Smoke for bikes at least. Maybe Grot Shield.

Agreed. Especially as the strategems are 100% unscalable which makes their value change differently. That's the biggest issue with strategems. They don't scale at all. And encourages deathstar style of building of buffing one unit to max rather than multiples. Which alas is opposite of target saturation orks do.

FW just updated the FAQ for Orks. https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/imperial_armour_index_xenos-2.pdf?utm_source=forgeworld.co.uk&utm_campaign=5dd96ca6ee-FW_2nd_November_Swift_twins&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_a6ef0a01da-5dd96ca6ee-115889781

All units get Dakkadakkadakka, and can use weapon profiles from the codex. Squiggoth can benefit from embarked KFF. Zhadsnark nerfed, only affects Evil Suns Infantry, not bikers it seems.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
FW just updated the FAQ for Orks. https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/imperial_armour_index_xenos-2.pdf?utm_source=forgeworld.co.uk&utm_campaign=5dd96ca6ee-FW_2nd_November_Swift_twins&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_a6ef0a01da-5dd96ca6ee-115889781

All units get Dakkadakkadakka, and can use weapon profiles from the codex. Squiggoth can benefit from embarked KFF. Zhadsnark nerfed, only affects Evil Suns Infantry, not bikers it seems.

so instead of fixing zhadsnark to benefit bikers they now pigionholed him for evilsunz?
admittedly evilsunz is a good trait for him and the infantry,he will buf and most named characters have a specific clan now, but still, no bikers?
FW never ceases to amaze me with their incompetence.

Zhadsnark is an evil sun so that makes perfect sense and they’ve given him the speed freaks rule so vehicles are boosted too.

Aye, but if they were going to limit Zhadsnark, they should have limited his ability to bikes, not infantry. I do still find him useful though, just use him like a controllable missile.

They still forgot to give him the ability to have bikes Waaagh!, which the regular biker warboss from the index has.

The probably don't want you to have a 17 + 7 + (2d6 +1) re-rolling threat range for him. (since he'd buff himself)

Well, in that case, they could just add "other" to the rule.

I really doubt they have given it any thought at all.

on the loota frnt i'm thinking of just using mine as tank bustas in truks. The new strats seem to suit them better, more dakka on 5+ and shoot again.... yes pls.

 tvih wrote:

PiñaColada wrote:
I think bad moons lootas are looking pretty strong if you invest enough poiints and CP into them. A squad of 10 and another of 15 mob up, put More Dakka strat on them and fire away. Then use the Showin' Off strat to fire again. You might have to CP the amount of shots you get. That's potentially 75 shots, rerolling 1's generating extra shots on 5's & 6's. Shooting twice. And you can move them beforehand if you wish since More Dakka just cancels that out anyways. Put a 30 man grot unit in front of them to give their squishy statline some protection and that's suddenly a real scary thing on the table.

Yeah, spend all that CP to try to make it a good unit. Often when I look at these discussions I wonder where people are getting all these CPs from to be able to afford to spend it on every little thing. For my own part, I'll be getting probably all of 6 CP from detachments in most cases.

Lootas just are too damn random (at least I seem to recall seeing that they're still 1-3 shots), and too pricey for that reason since they don't have survivability either. Even grot shield requires CP in addition to the points cost of the grots themselves. And from what I've seen of the wording of grot shield, it seems to be unit-specific. So use it on the lootas, and the enemy can just choose to wreck other things instead with the rest of his units, unless you spend even more CP. Sure, you protected that one unit, but that's about it. Overall in your example it is a lot of points and CP. A lot of units can be "scary" if you pump them up with all that.

Oh, and as for the mob up? You can't just mob up two units together like that, they have the be under half strength - and I imagine that being the case you can't end up with a unit with more models than the unit entry allows (which has been 15 for lootas).

I have 3 or 4 boxes of lootas myself - although only a few finished - and would love to use them as the models are quite nice... but the fact they didn't drop the points cost nor get much in the way of buffs to justify the old cost, I suppose they won't necessarily be all that often used.

Stick them next to a Mek Gun and a unit of grots in your backline and they might as well be a character.

How are you physically getting to 6CP with an ork army? 3 non-battalion detachments? no troops at all?

the_scotsman wrote:

Stick them next to a Mek Gun and a unit of grots in your backline and they might as well be a character.

How are you physically getting to 6CP with an ork army? 3 non-battalion detachments? no troops at all?

Well more like 2 units of 30 grots.

If you want ork army with 6CP to start with look at the WD battlereport. 5!

tneva82 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Stick them next to a Mek Gun and a unit of grots in your backline and they might as well be a character.

How are you physically getting to 6CP with an ork army? 3 non-battalion detachments? no troops at all?

Well more like 2 units of 30 grots.

If you want ork army with 6CP to start with look at the WD battlereport. 5!

why would you ever take 2 units of 30 grots?

6 units of 10 grots, now you're talking. those puppies are 5/3 or 2cp for 30 points. I own 120 and I don't know if I'm going to be making any lists with less than 60 from here on out, our main book stratagems are so goddamn good.

the_scotsman wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

Stick them next to a Mek Gun and a unit of grots in your backline and they might as well be a character.

How are you physically getting to 6CP with an ork army? 3 non-battalion detachments? no troops at all?

Well more like 2 units of 30 grots.

If you want ork army with 6CP to start with look at the WD battlereport. 5!

why would you ever take 2 units of 30 grots?

6 units of 10 grots, now you're talking. those puppies are 5/3 or 2cp for 30 points. I own 120 and I don't know if I'm going to be making any lists with less than 60 from here on out, our main book stratagems are so goddamn good.

Simple. They are tougher. 10 gets wiped out when somebody looks at them with evil eye. 2 units of 30 with runtherd making morale non-issue? That actually starts to be tough one to remove without it feeling like waste of points for enemy to remove S2 T2 no real damage output buggers.

Now albeit you can have 10 block units as well. 2x30 and as many 10 strong as I can fit(up to max 120 I own) is common feature in my lists.

(oh and for added flexibility 30 creates one hell of a long wall to set up with da jump if you feel like creating 62" long "you shall not pass!" area(well not pass without killing them anyway)

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Mob up is 10 or more plus 10 or fewer.

Looks like the sources I've been looking at (several of them) have been talking out of their rear ends. Typical, I guess. Still, as my luck usually goes 25 lootas in one mob would simply end up rolling one shot per turn for the entire game (and yes, I'm aware that's a subjective and not objective thing).

You need to rethink your lists then. 5 CP can be had for 250 points. The lists with Lootas have 16 to 18 CP.

I don't have enough troops to spam. Or then I'd be spamming squads of 10 boyz which get shot off the table in a hurry (can't even mob them up if the enemy goes first and whacks them, plus then I'd be using up those CP already).

At any rate some actually like using a variety of units and don't even want to paint 200 models for a 2000p list, or buy a million more troop boxes just to get more CP. I was really hoping this codex would make other means than spamming troops viable, but I guess not. don't really play competitively for that and other reasons. Not really specific to this codex but they in general went too over the top with this CP stuff. What started out as an interesting minor gameplay mechanism has turned out into an all out CP-farming fest. Reminiscent of the formation fiasco. Chasing the ever-changing perfect meta lists is far too much for my wallet.

 tvih wrote:

I don't have enough troops to spam. Or then I'd be spamming squads of 10 boyz which get shot off the table in a hurry (can't even mob them up if the enemy goes first and whacks them, plus then I'd be using up those CP already).
.

How little troops you have? 3 troop choices alone gives you 8CP. I would at least go to shop and get 3 boxes of grots. Not THAT expensive and they give you them 13CP to begin with while being good at objective grabbing etc. Sure they die easily but at least enemy has to spend firepower clearing 90 pts total. 6 CP is super thin(I'm still struggling to see how you come with that many. Battallion+1 extra relic comes to 7 CP. Aux detachment? What you need that for?)

(and where we have gone if 30 grots is considered spamming)

 TedNugent wrote:

So you could conceivably oneshot a knight. For 425 points, plus grot shields, for however many CPs it takes to pop both more dakka and showing off after a mob up on 25 lootas.

I think you've answered your own question there. You have a 44% chance to get enough shots to 1 round a knight.

If you roll 2 shots it will put the knight at half health with 11 to 12 wounds.

Two Las Preds w/ BobbyG - 11 wounds
3 Killshot Las Preds - 15 wounds
3 Killshot Las Preds w/ BobbyG - 18.6 wounds
3 Lance Ravagers - 5.2
3 Lance Ravagers w/ Doom - 7.9

Either you're achieving the result through CP, spells, or auras - pick your poison.

Furthermore - Lootas are nearly undiminishable while the grot shield is up. You'll have a hard time finding a unit in this game that has that same advantage.

 Jidmah wrote:
Well, in that case, they could just add "other" to the rule.

I really doubt they have given it any thought at all.

I think they gave it plenty of thought. Something along the lines of "we need to sell the new trike, so we can't give its unique rule to some old model people have".

And for gak and giggles -

A Castellan on max shots with Cawl's Wrath does 23 (with missile; more depending on house).

tneva82 wrote:


Simple. They are tougher. 10 gets wiped out when somebody looks at them with evil eye. 2 units of 30 with runtherd making morale non-issue? That actually starts to be tough one to remove without it feeling like waste of points for enemy to remove S2 T2 no real damage output buggers.

Now albeit you can have 10 block units as well. 2x30 and as many 10 strong as I can fit(up to max 120 I own) is common feature in my lists.

(oh and for added flexibility 30 creates one hell of a long wall to set up with da jump if you feel like creating 62" long "you shall not pass!" area(well not pass without killing them anyway)

Genuine question- why is 3 units of ten less durable than one unit of 30? Is it just ease of buffing with auras?

 tvih wrote:


At any rate some actually like using a variety of units and don't even want to paint 200 models for a 2000p list, or buy a million more troop boxes just to get more CP. I was really hoping this codex would make other means than spamming troops viable, but I guess not. don't really play competitively for that and other reasons. Not really specific to this codex but they in general went too over the top with this CP stuff. What started out as an interesting minor gameplay mechanism has turned out into an all out CP-farming fest. Reminiscent of the formation fiasco. Chasing the ever-changing perfect meta lists is far too much for my wallet.

You don't need to spam troops. It's just something you need if you want to be bleeding edge effective with CP hungry units.

20 grots, 2 x 10 boyz, and 2 HQs will get you 5 CP. The grots can be shields and the boyz can help guard Mek Gunz. The rest of your army can be in their face.

A couple Deffrolla Battlewagons or Gorknauts deepstriking (4 CP each to deepstrike and then charge) plus buggies, dreads, or whatever else you want should do just fine in a non-competitive setting (and actually pretty brutal - most people can't handle a T8 walker on their front lines very easily). Jump a Big Mek out and start fixing them as you crunch their faces.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Haighus wrote:

tneva82 wrote:


Simple. They are tougher. 10 gets wiped out when somebody looks at them with evil eye. 2 units of 30 with runtherd making morale non-issue? That actually starts to be tough one to remove without it feeling like waste of points for enemy to remove S2 T2 no real damage output buggers.

Now albeit you can have 10 block units as well. 2x30 and as many 10 strong as I can fit(up to max 120 I own) is common feature in my lists.

(oh and for added flexibility 30 creates one hell of a long wall to set up with da jump if you feel like creating 62" long "you shall not pass!" area(well not pass without killing them anyway)

Genuine question- why is 3 units of ten less durable than one unit of 30? Is it just ease of buffing with auras?

Let's say I shoot each unit of 10 enough to cause a morale test on each of them. If they all fail then the Runtherd causes them to lose D3 each.

If I did the same number of wound to a blob of 30 and they fail they only lose D3 once.

Now the likelihood of that happening is pretty low so, it's not usually a big deal unless you have no Runtherd at all.

 Haighus wrote:

tneva82 wrote:


Simple. They are tougher. 10 gets wiped out when somebody looks at them with evil eye. 2 units of 30 with runtherd making morale non-issue? That actually starts to be tough one to remove without it feeling like waste of points for enemy to remove S2 T2 no real damage output buggers.

Now albeit you can have 10 block units as well. 2x30 and as many 10 strong as I can fit(up to max 120 I own) is common feature in my lists.

(oh and for added flexibility 30 creates one hell of a long wall to set up with da jump if you feel like creating 62" long "you shall not pass!" area(well not pass without killing them anyway)

Genuine question- why is 3 units of ten less durable than one unit of 30? Is it just ease of buffing with auras?

Key being runtherd there(not sure does warboss still provide same effect). Grots have LD4. That's laughably small. If you have 3x10 enemy will direct some fire to each killing most but not all and then come morale phase you are failing morale test on every unit you have. With 3x10 that's 3d3 dead gretchin. When they are in one blob that's 1d3.

Those extra casualties add up fast. Even with basic boyz. Even in index version with 6x30 boyz the morale actually plays surprisingly big role when opponent learned out to hit up multiple nearby squads hard enough. Losing 20 ork per squad resulted in additional moraletests. Even with warboss that adds up to multiple units losing extra guys at surprising frequency. And all attempts with just 10 strong grot squads resulted in annoying amount of extra casualties constantly. It's too easy for opponents to ensure they spread out damage to maximize # of units that fail morale test. Especially with unit like grot that has very bad LD...

Oh and easier to buff indeed. 30 grots you can cover far wider and keep the unit under role. Did you know you could use 30 strong unit to basically wall your entire backfield from say space wolves Until enemy kills all but last handful? You can cover the entire 72" board and if you remove casualties you don't have to keep them in coherency(That's when you move. Not when you remove casualties). 1 model causes 18" radius "no deepstrike" so spacing models 18" gapped means your backfield is safe of space wolf type of abilities...Albeit too many casualties and your unit becomes immobile group as they can't form up coherency again but they have done their job then.

For these reasons 30 strong gretchins I tend to include squad or two. Just too useful. Of course I also have 10 strong squads! And more so now that boyz got killed off except for deep strike. 2 battallions=6 troops. 180 boyz for deep strike is too expensive point and CP wise so grots it is!

tneva82 wrote:
How little troops you have? 3 troop choices alone gives you 8CP. I would at least go to shop and get 3 boxes of grots. Not THAT expensive and they give you them 13CP to begin with while being good at objective grabbing etc. Sure they die easily but at least enemy has to spend firepower clearing 90 pts total. 6 CP is super thin(I'm still struggling to see how you come with that many. Battallion+1 extra relic comes to 7 CP. Aux detachment? What you need that for?)

(and where we have gone if 30 grots is considered spamming)

It's "spamming" in terms of model count compared to my marine lists for example which traditionally have had roughly around or less than 30 infantry models in total even though all told I have more marines than orks (just not nearly all of them painted). So 30 models just for "chaff" is kind of a lot for me (especially since I'm such a slow painter). For my orks I have about 60 boyz and 10 grots for troops. That makes one somewhat proper battalion and so 5 CP, possibly add in a heavy support detachment (I have many units for that slot) and it's 6 CP from detachments like I originally said. Plus of course the baseline 3 CP which I didn't include in the figure.

As for the lootas specifically, I checked and I indeed have 4 boxes, so a maximum of 16 deffgun models. Used to have two more boxes back in the day, but they got sold. Might sneak in a unit of 5 somewhat painted ones into my first hodge podge test list, not that they'd achieve much.

so a while back i posted some things i noticed from watching youtube codex reviews. i may or may not have the codex so i noticed there was one mistake so here is the correction.

nerf=tankbustas (8pt) reroll tohit of 1s instead on failed hits (possible mistake)

this was a mistake, tankbustas still get to reroll all failed to hits. my bad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
just started a new thread for new codex strategies talk
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766225.page#10215663
you welcome to bring the tactics discussion there for now.
let us WAAAAAAGH!

I got my copy of Speed Freeks this week, and just opened it. Components look good, and the rules look like it will be a fun game. Unfortunately my copy is missing the data cards. Anyone else have this problem? Is GW decent at fixing issues like this?

 CptJake wrote:
I got my copy of Speed Freeks this week, and just opened it. Components look good, and the rules look like it will be a fun game. Unfortunately my copy is missing the data cards. Anyone else have this problem? Is GW decent at fixing issues like this?

Very. Drop them a line and they'll sort you out.

 Binabik15 wrote:
I like stratagems giving back "new tactics" and all, but some things should've stayed special rules, IMO. That existed years ago already. Bilowing Smoke for bikes at least. Maybe Grot Shield.

I'm just really unhappy with stratagems which should be changes to the model's appearance, but are instead attainable with CP. I think it breaks immersion, and creates confusion.

The big offenders, for Orks, are Ardboys and Skarboys.


Why wouldn't a unit of Skarboys be visually noticeable to the opponent? Why would they look exactly like every other ork unit? If this was a unit upgrade option, then the modeler could do something to make his Skarboys visually distinct, since they were always going to be that way (and if you chose not to, it would be no different than the current situation).

Ardboys is even worse. These orks have additional armor plates! This is an easy unit upgrade to model (given that orks come with helmeted and unhelmeted heads, and shoulder plates). Why would your opponent need to remember which unit you spent a CP on to get a better save? It should be a unit upgrade that you can purchase. Modelers could represent it as they see fit, and players who didn't want to do so could handle it the exact way they do with this strategem now.

I'm super glad the options are still there (since I have my unit of Goff chain-choppa wielding Skarboys and my up-armored unit of Ard Boys from previous editions), but I feel that taking wargear options and making them abstract game purchases weakens the appeal of a miniature wargame.

so ... am I getting it correct that a 45pt mek gun can dish one 48" s8 ap-2 d6 autohit that reroll dmg on skimmerz, and it ain't broken?

 aracersss wrote:
so ... am I getting it correct that a 45pt mek gun can dish one 48" s8 ap-2 d6 autohit that reroll dmg on skimmerz, and it ain't broken?

Not as broken as the one that gives 1-1/6 hits at 48" for "strength" 2d6 ap-4 d6, and 31 points.

 aracersss wrote:
so ... am I getting it correct that a 45pt mek gun can dish one 48" s8 ap-2 d6 autohit that reroll dmg on skimmerz, and it ain't broken?

Against most targets, it's comparable to an astartes missile launcher with Gulliman re-rolls. It's only better if -1 to hit is involved.

One auto-hitting shot sounds much better than it is.

 Jidmah wrote:

 aracersss wrote:
so ... am I getting it correct that a 45pt mek gun can dish one 48" s8 ap-2 d6 autohit that reroll dmg on skimmerz, and it ain't broken?

Against most targets, it's comparable to an astartes missile launcher with Gulliman re-rolls. It's only better if -1 to hit is involved.

One auto-hitting shot sounds much better than it is.

it already sounds broken when you think you can have 5 of them for 225pts only ... ma' skimmerz are totaled

About as broken as a unit of devastators with full re-rolls.

When shooting 5, you wound 3.33, 2.22 get past armor.

5 Missile launchers near gulliman hit 4.44, wound 3.47, and 2.3 past armor.

It's basically a lascannon that's better at shooting vehicles with fly and worse at shooting vehicles without.
Lascannons are not overpowered.

 aracersss wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 aracersss wrote:
so ... am I getting it correct that a 45pt mek gun can dish one 48" s8 ap-2 d6 autohit that reroll dmg on skimmerz, and it ain't broken?

Against most targets, it's comparable to an astartes missile launcher with Gulliman re-rolls. It's only better if -1 to hit is involved.

One auto-hitting shot sounds much better than it is.

it already sounds broken when you think you can have 5 of them for 225pts only ... ma' skimmerz are totaled

Good - maybe people won't take so many or rely on stacking minus to hit as much.

Codex and minis are out now, so this thread has served it's purpose.

Further discussion in the appropriate board then folks.