Used to be d3 damage. However, i don't think d6 damage justified a double points value.
Umm wasn't it 42 pts before? So 48 pts now=not really double is it? Even weapon itself was 23 pts IIRC so 6 pts more isn't doubling. Well assuming that 48 refers to whole package and not just gun...If that's gun only...Bejezuz. Bye bye KMK's.
We lost 3 of the most iconic Hq's. Warboss in mega armour, big mek with kff and bigmek/warboss on warbike. I know people say we have a new wartrike but i feel bad for the Badmoonz players who now have to dredge a index around with an overpriced outdated data sheet that will be gone in a year or two.
aracersss wrote: two things that need answer ... are boy 7ps & grotz 5pts?
Uuuh boyz are 7 pts but sheesh 5 pts grots? That would be sick nerf to grots. 66% price hike when it's not exactly broken unit in itself(does someone else besides me even use like 120+ grots anyway?). More expensive than IG troopers who have +1WS, S, T, lot better LD, better guns and orders. Lol.
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lolman1c wrote: We lost 3 of the most iconic Hq's. Warboss in mega armour, big mek with kff and bigmek/warboss on warbike. I know people say we have a new wartrike but i feel bad for the Badmoonz players who now have to dredge a index around with an overpriced outdated data sheet that will be gone in a year or two.
Last worry isn't a worry. GW is too greedy for that.
I won't preorder anything right now, I haven't even received my Speed Freeks box yet.
I will get at least one trike later, and I don't even have trukks or any BWs yet, since my brother and I stopped dabbling in Orks/GW stuff before those even came out. Just footsloggers here (and excactl one of the old bikes I upgraded my a stormboy driver and a few shiny gubbinz last week). So those vehicles probably have priority oversomw more maybe-not-so-useful buggies. Unless mechanised mobs still suck. Which would be bad. This uncertainty and different ideas for Ork armies makes me wait well after the codex I think.
Then I can see if I should do Mad Dok Immortan Ork and his Bloodbag Collectors that turn bodies into fuel ingredients and stimulants for the speed waaagh, or the grounded Deff Skwadron Skrapjet swarm backed up by mechanised, uniformed Orks still haven't quite left their stormboyz phase. Or are Blood Axes.
I also have a spare Taurox that I plan to give normal front tires and huuuuge rear tires to hopefully make it look squat and aggressive. With its cannon plus rocket battery build it could be a...dragsta? Or a skrapjet if I put some huge ram on it, or some Stormfiend drills, maybe.
PS: I still don't get how they didn't use this "speed freaks subfaction" release as some here have described it to remove 20 year old models in the trakk/skorcha and GoMa kopta. No infantry, ok, makes sense if you see this release as something like a new Stormcast chamber or even "booster packs" for the Speed Freeks game. Deffkoptas will get SF rules according to one community blurb and new trakks could race as easily as a new buggy type.
I might be biased, though, seeing how flame thrower tanks are one of my favourite 40k thing and the skorcha my favourite Ork model back then.
Used to be d3 damage. However, i don't think d6 damage justified a double points value.
Umm wasn't it 42 pts before? So 48 pts now=not really double is it? Even weapon itself was 23 pts IIRC so 6 pts more isn't doubling. Well assuming that 48 refers to whole package and not just gun...If that's gun only...Bejezuz. Bye bye KMK's.
The video i watched said it was just the gun but i might be wrong.
lolman1c wrote: We lost 3 of the most iconic Hq's. Warboss in mega armour, big mek with kff and bigmek/warboss on warbike. I know people say we have a new wartrike but i feel bad for the Badmoonz players who now have to dredge a index around with an overpriced outdated data sheet that will be gone in a year or two.
Apparently the warboss went up in points, so the Badmoons MA warboss should be fine. The biker warboss is also fine from the index, so my warboss will keep on driving and enjoy his new Bloodaxe 3+ save.
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Morkphoiz wrote: No word on bikers yet? I dont have access to YouTube right now. Please tell me they got a buff
The video i watched said it was just the gun but i might be wrong. .
Well better hope it was just confusing way to say as 48 pts just for gun would be sick. Okay KMK is popular in tournament so maybe GW thought it's brokenly good but hell it was only thing orks had that killed anything for reasonable price and other mek guns weren't picked because KMK was brokenly good but because every other just flat SUCKED.
48 pts gun...So that would be 48+15+10=73 pts per mek gun and those are fairly easy to take out. Lol. So much for people's idea of dethskull KMK batteries.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Apologies if already mentioned. Seems ‘Ere We Go is now re-roll any charge dice, not the 2D6.
Small but decent change. No need to sacrifice that 5 or 6!
But you are screwed if you roll 1 and 2 then? I was using command rerolls to reroll 1 or 2 keeping 5 or 6 so generally this would be slow down for me actually. I find often botching both dice bad enough rerolling both is more common than rolling 5 or 6 and rolling low with dice again.
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lolman1c wrote: Yeah, all gretchin units don't have the Kultur keyword... so yeah... i mean it does kinda break the lore... also my list...
Also rokkits are the same price for some unknown reason for boyz.
Oh no bad moon etc bonuses? You know despite being actually nerf of sort I'm glad. Saves my ass with my models that are based on mixed colours so separating by clans is PITA! However I might still have to do that if clan needs to match for warboss/runtherd morale boost(assuming warboss anymore helps with grot morale) at which point I still need to figure way and they don't even benefit from clan rule :(
So KMK went in total up to 58? Oh yeah that makes sense. Let's nerf one of the few reasonable units from the ork list. And of course overall nerf to mek guns with loss of crew units. Lol. Orks getting some nerfbatting as well.
So KMK went in total up to 58? Oh yeah that makes sense. Let's nerf one of the few reasonable units from the ork list. And of course overall nerf to mek guns with loss of crew units. Lol. Orks getting some nerfbatting as well.
Losing crew really isn't a nerf. You couldn't typically shoot them anyway, but for people who can't deploy well you can't deepstrike them from behind.
It's essentially 16 points for a BS4 S8 AP3 D6 shot, which is more than reasonable.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Apologies if already mentioned. Seems ‘Ere We Go is now re-roll any charge dice, not the 2D6.
Small but decent change. No need to sacrifice that 5 or 6!
But you are screwed if you roll 1 and 2 then? I was using command rerolls to reroll 1 or 2 keeping 5 or 6 so generally this would be slow down for me actually. I find often botching both dice bad enough rerolling both is more common than rolling 5 or 6 and rolling low with dice again.
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lolman1c wrote: Yeah, all gretchin units don't have the Kultur keyword... so yeah... i mean it does kinda break the lore... also my list...
Also rokkits are the same price for some unknown reason for boyz.
Oh no bad moon etc bonuses? You know despite being actually nerf of sort I'm glad. Saves my ass with my models that are based on mixed colours so separating by clans is PITA! However I might still have to do that if clan needs to match for warboss/runtherd morale boost(assuming warboss anymore helps with grot morale) at which point I still need to figure way and they don't even benefit from clan rule :(
But this blows up the argument that we are paying for the traits... units that cannot take the traits have stil gone up in cost!
Yep, all builds up... to me i feel the nerfs out way any buffs we got. To be honest most of the units haven't changed at all and stayed the same points... burnas and loots are still over priced 6+ save units... i mean you could play them as blood axes but what if your not a blood axe player? What happens then?
So KMK went in total up to 58? Oh yeah that makes sense. Let's nerf one of the few reasonable units from the ork list. And of course overall nerf to mek guns with loss of crew units. Lol. Orks getting some nerfbatting as well.
Losing crew really isn't a nerf. You couldn't typically shoot them anyway, but for people who can't deploy well you can't deepstrike them from behind.
It's essentially 16 points for a BS4 S8 AP3 D6 shot, which is more than reasonable.
Ummm yes it is nerf. I have used the crew to various things effectively. Stuff like spreading them around to block deep striking, generally get in way, go take objectives(remember you could have 1 set of crew control 3 guns and have 2 sets of 5 go around). Sacrificial roadblocks have been used. Once they pissed off dark eldar player who couldn't shoot my warlord due to them with unit that was good at killing him while only unit that was in position to kill crew was unable to shoot at them due to 3rd unit being too close to that dark eldar unit.
Those 5 strong grot crews with no guns have actually been my MVP's time to time. They have even decided couple wins for me.
How losing that is NOT a nerf? Now all they do is take space so if you have the grot crew on board you are worse off than without but if you don't have them you get accused of MFA.
But this blows up the argument that we are paying for the traits... units that cannot take the traits have stil gone up in cost!
Umm you don't pay for the trait. That has been obvious from the day of 1st codex. If that would be true points would have been going up in codexes when they have been going down or stayed same. Anybody with mediocre of sense knows GW puts 0 price for traits, warlord traits, strategems etc.
Ummm yes it is nerf. I have used the crew to various things effectively. Stuff like spreading them around to block deep striking, generally get in way, go take objectives(remember you could have 1 set of crew control 3 guns and have 2 sets of 5 go around). Sacrificial roadblocks have been used. Once they pissed off dark eldar player who couldn't shoot my warlord due to them with unit that was good at killing him while only unit that was in position to kill crew was unable to shoot at them due to 3rd unit being too close to that dark eldar unit.
Those 5 strong grot crews with no guns have actually been my MVP's time to time. They have even decided couple wins for me.
And 16 pts? 43+15=58 pts.
They're not adding much area for deepstrike coverage while also staying close enough to the gun.
People have been telling us though that's why our units went up in price.
To me this is how it looks. We had a weak 1 trick pony index that seriously needed some looking at. And we almost got it... but the overall points are still terrible for orks... in games vs IG I was taking less models! Now from the looks of it my list has gone up in pts! All while their list went down with the codex (remember, guard was one if the most powerful indexes and we expected overall nerfs but didn't see it).
The nerf for ork boyz from 6ppm to 7ppm I can absolutely understand it. But all the other nerfs? I can't. Like... Orks sucked balls barring boyz and stormboyz (that were heavely nerfed with the Fly and deepstrike changes)
This does not mean that this Codex wont have some broken combo/build. It will probably have one. And maybe it can compete in tournaments (I doubt it will be able to fight agaisnt Soup, of course). But at this point I cant see the need to nerf those units that where allready bad.
lolman1c wrote: People have been telling us though that's why our units went up in price.
UUUUUUGGGGGGGGG
Because Boyz were already good. They just got distinctly better. I guess Conscripts should never have gone to 4 and Infantry Squads should never go to 5 points.
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Galas wrote: The nerf for ork boyz from 6ppm to 7ppm I can absolutely understand it. But all the other nerfs? I can't. Like... Orks sucked balls barring boyz and stormboyz (that were heavely nerfed with the Fly and deepstrike changes)
This does not mean that this Codex wont have some broken combo/build. It will probably have one. And maybe it can compete in tournaments (I doubt it will be able to fight agaisnt Soup, of course). But at this point I cant see the need to nerf those units that where allready bad.
They're not adding much area for deepstrike coverage while also staying close enough to the gun.
You realize right only 1 squad has to stay near the gun? T1 others run elsewhere. And of course it's not just deep strike. They are used thorough game. By the time game ends if they haven't been killed they are waaaay elsewhere to guns.
lolman1c wrote: People have been telling us though that's why our units went up in price.
To me this is how it looks. We had a weak 1 trick pony index that seriously needed some looking at. And we almost got it... but the overall points are still terrible for orks... in games vs IG I was taking less models! Now from the looks of it my list has gone up in pts! All while their list went down with the codex (remember, guard was one if the most powerful indexes and we expected overall nerfs but didn't see it).
And that 1 trick pony only worked if you deliberately slowplayed 2-3 turn games....If you go for 4-6 turns that collapses immediately.
Ah well. Release went pretty much how I expected. Well I did not expect this many NERFS but wasn't expecting big boost orks needed.
That traktor cannon almost seems a bit too good imo. Auto hitting against flyers for less than 50 points doing melta range damage is huge. Sure the go down easy but they're also easy to overkill since they're individual models.
I really don't understand how people are complaining right now though. Upon first view this codex seems really strong
They're not adding much area for deepstrike coverage while also staying close enough to the gun.
You realize right only 1 squad has to stay near the gun? T1 others run elsewhere. And of course it's not just deep strike. They are used thorough game. By the time game ends if they haven't been killed they are waaaay elsewhere to guns.
Yea, and that's pretty stupid to have as a dynamic. Most games were not being won by a handful of grots that are removed by a few bolters.
And you're not longer paying for the grots, sooooo....go buy more grots.
Galas wrote: The nerf for ork boyz from 6ppm to 7ppm I can absolutely understand it. But all the other nerfs? I can't. Like... Orks sucked balls barring boyz and stormboyz (that were heavely nerfed with the Fly and deepstrike changes)
This does not mean that this Codex wont have some broken combo/build. It will probably have one. And maybe it can compete in tournaments (I doubt it will be able to fight agaisnt Soup, of course). But at this point I cant see the need to nerf those units that where allready bad.
i could have lived with ork boyz nerf no problem. But our lootas and burna boyz needed a points drop and got nothing. Our rokkits on boyz got no drop. Our warboss went up in points? Our stompa... don't even get my started... painboy and runt herder went up in points for some reason? A flyer nobody even used went up in points? only unit i see having a good reduction is the Morkanaut who already has had to be buffed twice now. This was gw's time to shine and really show off that they know how to balance and listen to us... I really feel like points were just an after thought i this codex...
It's a shame because everything else was so unique.
Because Boyz were already good. They just got distinctly better. I guess Conscripts should never have gone to 4 and Infantry Squads should never go to 5 points.
They were only good if you slowplayed to 2-3 turn game. Full game though....Well suboptimal gunline shoots 60 models a turn from orks. You can't fit much more than 320 models in 2k AND deploy(I did that). Quick math=320/60=5.333333 turns. So after 5 turns you have 20 models left. So in standard length game your army is less than 2 dozens. 6 turn and you are wiped out.
It's not good unit if you need to slowplay so that you play less turns than scenario tells you to play.
And now boyz went worse. Not better. Huge nerf there for core unit to already substandard unit. Great.
lolman1c wrote: People have been telling us though that's why our units went up in price.
UUUUUUGGGGGGGGG
Because Boyz were already good. They just got distinctly better. I guess Conscripts should never have gone to 4 and Infantry Squads should never go to 5 points.
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Galas wrote: The nerf for ork boyz from 6ppm to 7ppm I can absolutely understand it. But all the other nerfs? I can't. Like... Orks sucked balls barring boyz and stormboyz (that were heavely nerfed with the Fly and deepstrike changes)
This does not mean that this Codex wont have some broken combo/build. It will probably have one. And maybe it can compete in tournaments (I doubt it will be able to fight agaisnt Soup, of course). But at this point I cant see the need to nerf those units that where allready bad.
Can you list the straight nerfs?
All those price increases, of course. An all the overpriced units that saw no price decrease, but those we'll see how they end up after the Kulturs, etc... apply to them.
They're not adding much area for deepstrike coverage while also staying close enough to the gun.
You realize right only 1 squad has to stay near the gun? T1 others run elsewhere. And of course it's not just deep strike. They are used thorough game. By the time game ends if they haven't been killed they are waaaay elsewhere to guns.
Yea, and that's pretty stupid to have as a dynamic. Most games were not being won by a handful of grots that are removed by a few bolters.
And you're not longer paying for the grots, sooooo....go buy more grots.
Gun still costs more while the unit got worse. Double nerf. KMK's weren't tournament dominating cheese either so why double nerf. Nerf the crew(which are now just there to eat space so the crew models are just weak point for the gun) and upped price. Oh yeah like KMK's needed double nerfs. Anybody with basic ABC game design would know this was unneeded.
I presume mega armoured warbosses won't be affected by the warboss price rise, since being removed from the codex means the index cost will the most recent points cost for them?
All those price increases, of course. An all the overpriced units that saw no price decrease, but those we'll see how they end up after the Kulturs, etc... apply to them.
As far as I can see nothing with a price increase wasn't also boosted in some way - except Boyz who have more ethereal buffs.
All those price increases, of course. An all the overpriced units that saw no price decrease, but those we'll see how they end up after the Kulturs, etc... apply to them.
As far as I can see nothing with a price increase wasn't also boosted in some way - except Boyz who have more ethereal buffs.
If you buff a bad unit and then give it a price increase is like doing nothing. Unless the price increase is deserved for a more fine tuned balance, but I seriously doubt that.
Gun still costs more while the unit got worse. Double nerf. KMK's weren't tournament dominating cheese either so why double nerf. Nerf the crew(which are now just there to eat space so the crew models are just weak point for the gun) and upped price. Oh yeah like KMK's needed double nerfs. Anybody with basic ABC game design would know this was unneeded.
KMKs were already decent. Now they do more damage.
A triple lance Ravager is 140 points for 3 BS3 S8 AP4 D6, which is 3.1 vs an Armiger and 4.7 vs a Pred.
Two KMKs do 5.4 and 6.8 respectively for 34 points less.
All those price increases, of course. An all the overpriced units that saw no price decrease, but those we'll see how they end up after the Kulturs, etc... apply to them.
As far as I can see nothing with a price increase wasn't also boosted in some way - except Boyz who have more ethereal buffs.
Buffs like clan traits etc that are free...So the 1 pts extra isn't due to traits etc but flat out nerf. And boyz were already substandard unit.
So let's see. Other armies: Power level 10. Gets 10% boost for free for 0 price increase. Orks: Power level 8. Get 10% boost but increase cost by 16%.
Gun still costs more while the unit got worse. Double nerf. KMK's weren't tournament dominating cheese either so why double nerf. Nerf the crew(which are now just there to eat space so the crew models are just weak point for the gun) and upped price. Oh yeah like KMK's needed double nerfs. Anybody with basic ABC game design would know this was unneeded.
KMKs were already decent. Now they do more damage.
A triple lance Ravager is 140 points for 3 BS3 S8 AP4 D6, which is 3.1 vs an Armiger and 4.7 vs a Pred.
Two KMKs do 5.4 and 6.8 respectively for 34 points less.
Have some perspective.
Yes they were decent. Then they got tiny boost but also nerf AND were nerfed with price. They weren't brokenly good. Hitting them with double nerfbat was unneeded. Only complete game design rookie could do that mistake.
And you are only looking at damage output. Shows how bad you are at game design. Ravager is waaaaaaaaaaay better than the new KMK.
Yes they were decent. Then they got tiny boost but also nerf AND were nerfed with price. They weren't brokenly good. Hitting them with double nerfbat was unneeded. Only complete game design rookie could do that mistake.
.
No one here thinks you have any authority to criticise on the subject of game design, so why not drop the holier than thou attitude when it comes to it?
I still don't get why everyone is telling me Boyz are so good. I entered a tournament only a few weeks ago where I brought mainly boyz and lost 60 boyz a turn. In the live stream he outright says boyz got nerfed to stop us from taking them... there was no other reason.
The fact is Knights got buffs and a decrease in points.
Tyranids (an already good index) got buffs and a decrease in points.
Space Marines (although not amazing... but I've played my army vs my own orks many times and lost overy time) got buffs while having a points decrease.
Imperial Guard got overall buffs (The Russ is a good example) while going down in points.
The Ork codex just seems a little unfair...
however, the Trukk and wagon buff is appreciated and the Dread is now cheaper than a Marine Dreadnought now I think so that's good.
Yes they were decent. Then they got tiny boost but also nerf AND were nerfed with price. They weren't brokenly good. Hitting them with double nerfbat was unneeded. Only complete game design rookie could do that mistake.
And we'll just have to agree to disagree.
And you are only looking at damage output. Shows how bad you are at game design. Ravager is waaaaaaaaaaay better than the new KMK.
Sure, pal. Mek Gunz are a "softer target". First turn damage absolutely matters.
Let's do it this way.
Two Lance Ravagers are 280 - T6 20 wounds degrading.
Five KMKs are 290 - T5 30 wounds.
4 KMKs guarantee one dead. Three will put one on it's last bracket with a high chance of killing it.
A single Ravager shooting a KMK doesn't even average to 6 wounds - two shooting gets 1.5.
So the KMKs can put a Ravager down with ease taking 3 guns out of the fight (AND they can fire one at a time to determine the next best course of action where Ravagers are allocating 3 guns at a time). And the Ravagers can reliably take ONE gun out of the fight.
So even if Ravagers go first the KMKs still have enough left to pull a full Ravager out of the sky.
gak let's do dissie Ravagers - they can kill TWO guns per turn, which is STILL behind what KMKs can do.
davou wrote: No one here thinks you have any authority to criticise on the subject of game design, so why not drop the holier than thou attitude when it comes to it?
Protip: You don't actually need to be an expert at something to be able to tell when someone else is doing it terribly.
tneva82 wrote: No one here thinks you have any authority to criticise on the subject of game design, so why not drop the holier than thou attitude when it comes to it?
Protip: You don't actually need to be an expert at something to be able to tell when someone else is doing it terribly.
No, but you certain can miss the mark and constantly complain if this thread is any Indicator
davou wrote: No one here thinks you have any authority to criticise on the subject of game design, so why not drop the holier than thou attitude when it comes to it?
Protip: You don't actually need to be an expert at something to be able to tell when someone else is doing it terribly.
That is true, I can;t ride a motorbike but when i see someone travelling at 90 mph into a wall I do tend to have the authority to say he's doing it wrong.
davou wrote: No one here thinks you have any authority to criticise on the subject of game design, so why not drop the holier than thou attitude when it comes to it?
Protip: You don't actually need to be an expert at something to be able to tell when someone else is doing it terribly.
That is true, I can;t ride a motorbike but when i see someone travelling at 90 mph into a wall I do tend to have the authority to say he's doing it wrong.
You guys are a riot. We'll see how it turns out soon enough.
To be fair, this discussion closely resembes pretty much every other discussion of a new codex before people have it in their hands. We can see the obviously wrong stuff (like the stompa's cost) but not a whole lot else.
I don't know if orks will be good. I don#t see how they can take on knights, but to be honest knights need a nerf and aren't a fair comparison. The meta is in that weird place right now where everyone's waiting to see what CA does. It could conceivably even see changes to the points in this codex.
lolman1c wrote: I still don't get why everyone is telling me Boyz are so good. I entered a tournament only a few weeks ago where I brought mainly boyz and lost 60 boyz a turn. In the live stream he outright says boyz got nerfed to stop us from taking them... there was no other reason.
Dunno. Only logical answer is they play with grey knights. That's the only faction that is actually in trouble vs orks but then again that's because GK's are the one faction that's screwed even more than orks. Poor GK. They deserve revisioned codex fast.
That or they only play against slowplayer who gets only 2-3 turns played or are themselves so slow that game goes 2-3 turns.
But 5-6 turns as scenarios tell you to play you are lucky if you avoid wipeout. This with substandard gunlines(dark eldar army that has like 12 dark lances for example is hardly most optimized...Disintegrator is better vs vehicles and obviously better vs infantry)
Even semi decent player should have no trouble with orks assuming one of the players isn't slowplaying like hell. Boyz are awesome in 2 turn game. In 5-6 turn game? Less so.
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Mandragola wrote: To be fair, this discussion closely resembes pretty much every other discussion of a new codex before people have it in their hands. We can see the obviously wrong stuff (like the stompa's cost) but not a whole lot else.
I don't know if orks will be good. I don#t see how they can take on knights, but to be honest knights need a nerf and aren't a fair comparison. The meta is in that weird place right now where everyone's waiting to see what CA does. It could conceivably even see changes to the points in this codex.
CA comes in december. It's already done and ready. Only way points would change in CA is GW decided to change points BEFORE codex was even released. Very thin chances. Last year tyranids got released close to CA and zero changes there either.
Don't count on point changes in CA. GW did the purchace pattern changing alternations in codex so want to have stuff sell with those before changing what players buy next.
they better release a warboss and big mek kit and give us back those models at some point.
That is absolute BS to remove THAT MANY RULES. I swear to god if they ever announce Indexes are no longer legal and they didnt give us an extension with new warboss/mek stuff by then....
Upside, personally i stopped using Megaboss in every list since 4+ armor is atleast DECENT now and odds are he wont even use it except in melee anyway. Nonmega KFF...i cant remember the last time i DIDNT have one.
Anybody know if Ghaz's special rules are universal or did they go Goff only? His stuff was the only rules we had that just said friendly ork, not a clan
Mandragola wrote: To be fair, this discussion closely resembes pretty much every other discussion of a new codex before people have it in their hands. We can see the obviously wrong stuff (like the stompa's cost) but not a whole lot else.
I don't know if orks will be good. I don#t see how they can take on knights, but to be honest knights need a nerf and aren't a fair comparison. The meta is in that weird place right now where everyone's waiting to see what CA does. It could conceivably even see changes to the points in this codex.
CA comes in december. It's already done and ready. Only way points would change in CA is GW decided to change points BEFORE codex was even released. Very thin chances. Last year tyranids got released close to CA and zero changes there either.
Don't count on point changes in CA. GW did the purchace pattern changing alternations in codex so want to have stuff sell with those before changing what players buy next.
See again you're unable to think outside your current mindset. It seems to me he's saying - as others have said repeatedly - that CA could easily nerf knights et al not that it will "fix Orks".
Interesting Ork game here (way better than Warhammer TV)
Spoiler:
The stompa still feels like a waste (should have been 700pts most) but boyz are still great (as expected). My prediction is that people will just continue to take boyz with a 6 up invlun or fnp and then just ignore the other elite units we used to have to pay for. Honestly, for me it's going to have to be two squads.
I'm feeling 2 weirdboyz and 20,20,20 boyz using snake bites and then the rest as evil sunz.
davou wrote: anyone have a word on the points cost/rules for deffkoptas? I gotta leave for work and I cant watch an hour+ long youtube video
Yea they're down like 30 pts but lost big bombs. They retain ability to take rokkits as well as big shoota.
Did anyone else catch that the deff rolla battle wagon gets +d6 attacks (!) on the charge?! Now at str 9 instead of 8! Ordered one the moment I heard it.
i just head deffrolla was AP-2 and 2Damage now and lost my gak lol.
Deffroll as is isnt weak, its high strength and hits on 2s. But for some reason didnt have crap for AP despite being a giant meatgrinder ram and only did 1 damage...? i love it now.
Vineheart01 wrote: i just head deffrolla was AP-2 and 2Damage now and lost my gak lol.
Deffroll as is isnt weak, its high strength and hits on 2s. But for some reason didnt have crap for AP despite being a giant meatgrinder ram and only did 1 damage...? i love it now.
Deffrolla gives 6+D6 attacks now. Oh and S9.
120 points confirmed WITH ard case. Deffrolla is 19.
but they did in the warhammer TV thing last night? So are you telling me the devs didn't even know their own game? (I have a feeling this is a FAQ incoming)
As for the wagon, yes I am happy with the buff. It needed it for sure!
Killakanz lacking klan rules makes me sad. I may shift mine to bigshootas, i magnetized their rokkit arm for a reason lol.
Cut about ~60pts off them, assuming rokkits and bigshootas are same price. I mainly use them for melee anyway since they tend to catch people off guard a LOT
but they did in the warhammer TV thing last night? So are you telling me the devs didn't even know their own game? (I have a feeling this is a FAQ incoming)
Yeah, they cheated on stream, for a major Ork benefit, andthey still got wiped in 3 turns
Turns out there's a rule that superheavies don't get chapter tactics type stuff if they're in a "just the one superheavy" detachment.
I am amazed tho that every single youtube review I've seen is hardcore shilling for the Mek shop. Are all these people just as bad at the game as GW's own game designers, or was it part of the contract to receive the Codex early to promote this one item specifically?
Vineheart01 wrote: i just head deffrolla was AP-2 and 2Damage now and lost my gak lol.
Deffroll as is isnt weak, its high strength and hits on 2s. But for some reason didnt have crap for AP despite being a giant meatgrinder ram and only did 1 damage...? i love it now.
Deffrolla gives 6+D6 attacks now. Oh and S9.
120 points confirmed WITH ard case. Deffrolla is 19.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Killa Kanz
Saw option +2S AP2 D2 +1A Drill +1S AP4 D2
So they can roll 5 S7 attacks with the saw
this....literally all of this...is amazing for me. I usually have 6 kanz as it is for melee because people have a bad habit of ignoring them "they hit on 5s!" and then they mulch your face. I also own 5 battlewagons as it is. Only 2 rollas though, and since one of my wagons was permanently converted into a SupaKannon variant i guess that means i need 2 more rollas, since theres 3 wagon profiles apparently lol
The other 2 i assume have 'ard case already but thats where a 10man unit of nobz come in. They arent shooting, theyre just waiting for the ram and then get out and join the fightin'! If said wagon goes boom somehow before the nobz do, loot it! muhaha! As a toyz player this dex is amusing to say the least.
You are joking right? Please tell that's just bad attempt at a joke?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vineheart01 wrote: i have a feeling they forgot about that rule because im pretty sure the Bad Moonz article said stompas with bad moonz trait reroll 1s
Well if that's reason technically article would be correct. Superheavy det with 3 stompas for 2760 pts would get trait. Yey?
So, outside of one cheese build (first turn charge), Orks got fethed?
Fun... no kultur on lots of models that would love to take advantage of it; and points increases instead of decreases to the majority of models that needed it?
I mean I’ll wait for more reviews, but I’m not holding my squigs.
fe40k wrote: So, outside of one cheese build (first turn charge), Orks got fethed?
Fun... no kultur on lots of models that would love to take advantage of it; and points increases instead of decreases to the majority of models that needed it?
I mean I’ll wait for more reviews, but I’m not holding my squigs.
I actually think Daedalus81 might be on to something with MSU Deffskulls.
TedNugent wrote: Boys, warboss and painboy up in points....they really were intent on killing green tide.
Well, ork players already have boyz, they want you to buy new toys, not use what you already have - likely also why the Stompa isn't amazing, they are pushing the new stuff not trying to fix older kits - odd though, make said stompa expensive but worth it and most players will buy one, its a nice model - but looks poor in multiples.
hopefully there will be a supplement at some point, once the codexes are all out, that will come with a few new models in a couple of years...
until then, looks like the index is still needed, I like my big mek with KFF
Much weaker than expected. 18" limit to cover, and shot OR charge.
expected a limit similar to the Tyranid version (always in cover unless you advance or charge), still its better than nothing, fall back then shoot or charge again is reasonable, both is perhaps a bit much.
the 18" limitation is potentially useful for flanking advances though, not in cover from the stuff you stalk, but perhaps in cover from the stuff further away.
main downside is enemy fliers just move up then unload the hurricane bolters etc.
Ahh well, the core of my lot is blood axe, and is staying that way regardless, will see what I can get out of it
tneva82 wrote: Lol. Since when blood axes were supposed to be gunlines?
See when you post like this you lose that precious little credibility you had left. There is another part of the trait that is much more useful competitively. There is a reason everyone takes hive fleet Kraken.
fe40k wrote: So, outside of one cheese build (first turn charge), Orks got fethed?
Fun... no kultur on lots of models that would love to take advantage of it; and points increases instead of decreases to the majority of models that needed it?
I mean I’ll wait for more reviews, but I’m not holding my squigs.
I actually think Daedalus81 might be on to something with MSU Deffskulls.
interesting Blood Axes get the ability to deep strike infantry, which may work nicely alongside the teleporta stuff, picking whichever is cheaper for the unit desired, situational but could be useful.
nice to see stormboyz also get deepstrike...
Can see my orks enjoying APOC scale games with a larger table
Blood Axe trait is weak; it sounds nice, but within 18” is basically the entire game board; at least it’ll feel like it at times - I’m curious how it works out.
That said, it’s free cover round1, instead of needing to spend the 2cp I guess.
Much weaker than expected. 18" limit to cover, and shot OR charge.
I dunno, I can see a place for it...
Breaking it down:
Spoiler:
Yes, the range on the cover benefit is longer than some similar styles--however it does not require you to be stationary and is not limited to non-Flying models.
Being able to shoot or charge when they Fell Back in the same turn can be a nasty trick. Especially for units that have benefits on the charge.
Means ‘Ardboyz at 18” have a 3+ save (I think? Pretty sure Boyz have a 5+?).
Nobs in ‘Eavy Armour likewise. And ded sneeky Meganobz are totally doable, spesh if you infiltrate them.
I know it may not be popular opinion, but without denigrating those opinions, I’m seeing a lot of potential within the Kulturs. Spesh if you decide to sacrifice rawCP for variety of FoC.
tneva82 wrote: Lol. Since when blood axes were supposed to be gunlines?
See when you post like this you lose that precious little credibility you had left. There is another part of the trait that is much more useful competitively. There is a reason everyone takes hive fleet Kraken.
Yes thap part helps assault but also gunline while assault army ignores cover benefit pretty much fully. So much like happened with raven guard where supposed lightning assault specialists became premier gunline blood axe helps gunline more than assault. Though bad for either. For assaul you want evil sun for reliable deep strike assault. Blood axe sucks at that.
tneva82 wrote: Lol. Since when blood axes were supposed to be gunlines?
See when you post like this you lose that precious little credibility you had left. There is another part of the trait that is much more useful competitively. There is a reason everyone takes hive fleet Kraken.
When you make posts like this, you alienate people. Knock it off with the personal attacks.
tneva82 wrote: Lol. Since when blood axes were supposed to be gunlines?
See when you post like this you lose that precious little credibility you had left. There is another part of the trait that is much more useful competitively. There is a reason everyone takes hive fleet Kraken.
When you make posts like this, you alienate people. Knock it off with the personal attacks.
He is a contributing member so he is allowed to attack people...
tneva82 wrote: Lol. Since when blood axes were supposed to be gunlines?
See when you post like this you lose that precious little credibility you had left. There is another part of the trait that is much more useful competitively. There is a reason everyone takes hive fleet Kraken.
When you make posts like this, you alienate people. Knock it off with the personal attacks.
He is a contributing member so he is allowed to attack people...
That's not actually how it works. Report him for personal attacks if you feel he's making them.
Spreelock wrote: Hey there, has the Power levels leaked out already? I was having a couple of league games and was not able to follow this thread..
They have been here and there from various sources. Some codex reviews are out, the Twitch stream by WarhammerTV yesterday showed us some and theres some in the White Dwarf preview on the Warhammer Community page as well. Unfortunately I dont think anyone has a condensed list anywhere
Much weaker than expected. 18" limit to cover, and shot OR charge.
Could this point out to all -1 to hit traits being changed to 18" with CA?
Rumor is CA is also turning all -1 traits into cover traits as well.
Which could be an extrapolation from someone who saw kulturs early and made a guess. Totally possible though.
Quite possible. Im still thinking that a lot of the points increases on our "base" units (warboss, boyz, big mek etc) is in preparation for CA where a lot of armies will be experiencing this as well
Quite possible. Im still thinking that a lot of the points increases on our "base" units (warboss, boyz, big mek etc) is in preparation for CA where a lot of armies will be experiencing this as well
I just hope the deffdread/MANZ reductions signal changes for their analogues, too.
Quite possible. Im still thinking that a lot of the points increases on our "base" units (warboss, boyz, big mek etc) is in preparation for CA where a lot of armies will be experiencing this as well
I just hope the deffdread/MANZ reductions signal changes for their analogues, too.
I would agree. Dreads and Terminators are too expensive right now, and easily some of the coolest units in the game.
Do we know what the point reductions for MANz are yet? I only saw the PL
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Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote: Has it been confirmed that the mega armor warboss is gone from codex ? I've read yes and no.
Quite possible. Im still thinking that a lot of the points increases on our "base" units (warboss, boyz, big mek etc) is in preparation for CA where a lot of armies will be experiencing this as well
That would certainly be interesting. It's one way to help keep battalion spam in check for horde armies
Quite possible. Im still thinking that a lot of the points increases on our "base" units (warboss, boyz, big mek etc) is in preparation for CA where a lot of armies will be experiencing this as well
That would certainly be interesting. It's one way to help keep battalion spam in check for horde armies
if this doesn't happen will you let us be upset then? Because you'll have many many years of us complaining until 9th edition.
well, if there is no change to the kff on the megamek and the other units that can take it (curse you GW stream for getting my hopes up) then the consolation is that its the same kff as the index bikemek and normal mek have...so you can take the index meks without feeling too ham stringed.
unless im missing something that makes the new kff on the codex entries sooooo good?
Jidmah wrote: What makes you think that? They need to follow the deep strike beta rules like anyone else.
Nightlord1987 is referring to all the infiltration type stratagems that got errata changing them to extra movement instead of acting like a form of deep strike. Blood Axe Dead Sneaky strategem still functions like a form of deep strike while those others do not.
Nightlord1987 wrote: So, it seems like post FAQ, Blood Axes are the only real Infiltrators left. Pretty cool.
Ummm...Many other factions have deep strike strategems. Which work identically with this one. Not even the rumoured "up to 20PL worth of units" but instead "one unit up to 20PL". Or the BA that allows infantry for bigger. Either way deep strike works same way for everybody. Up to half the points, T2 earliest. So what's so cool?
Jidmah wrote: What makes you think that? They need to follow the deep strike beta rules like anyone else.
Nightlord1987 is referring to all the infiltration type stratagems that got errata changing them to extra movement instead of acting like a form of deep strike. Blood Axe Dead Sneaky strategem still functions like a form of deep strike while those others do not.
Well those didn't act like form of deep strike but were better. But "only real infiltrator" ignoring tons of factions that have EXACT SAME strategem as blood axes. Blood axes aren't "only true" in any sense. Nothing unique about their ability.
CA was likely made with the Ork codex, and vice versa.
It's possible the idea of how Orks cit into the game will change when CA comes out next month-end as there may be a design idea that carries theough from the Ork codex to other units points cost in CA, as the Ork codex was likely designed with chapter approved 2 rules/points in mind as they were likely finalized or close.
blaktoof wrote: CA was likely made with the Ork codex, and vice versa.
It's possible the idea of how Orks cit into the game will change when CA comes out next month-end as there may be a design idea that carries theough from the Ork codex to other units points cost in CA, as the Ork codex was likely designed with chapter approved 2 rules/points in mind as they were likely finalized or close.
Then again maybe not. People have sworn "X happens for SURE in next CA/FAQ" only for no appearance.
Fans are always "Wait for X". "Wait for 8th ed. No wait for codex. No wait for FAQ. No wait for CA. No wait for next FAQ. Still nothing? Next FAQ is SURE to have the magic bullet!"
blaktoof wrote: CA was likely made with the Ork codex, and vice versa.
It's possible the idea of how Orks cit into the game will change when CA comes out next month-end as there may be a design idea that carries theough from the Ork codex to other units points cost in CA, as the Ork codex was likely designed with chapter approved 2 rules/points in mind as they were likely finalized or close.
Then again maybe not. People have sworn "X happens for SURE in next CA/FAQ" only for no appearance.
Fans are always "Wait for X". "Wait for 8th ed. No wait for codex. No wait for FAQ. No wait for CA. No wait for next FAQ. Still nothing? Next FAQ is SURE to have the magic bullet!"
Yep, I agree.
Been with GW products long enough to know it's possible, but to not expect that forethought also.
Psychocouac wrote: I see defdreads become really strong with the tellyporta. 3 of them in your face at 105 points each seems pretty strong.
At first I was going to say they can't do this because they become units of 1 model when deployed, but tellyporting happens before they deploy to the table.
Psychocouac wrote: I see defdreads become really strong with the tellyporta. 3 of them in your face at 105 points each seems pretty strong.
Assuming they get any PL drops. But yeah seems codex could be renamed codex: teleporting walkers. Those looks to be what are going to hold the codex up at all if it's to actually be reasonably competive. Good thing I have 3 unpainted and 1 unassembled. Those into evil sun colours, evil sun gorkanaut and goff gorkanaut(3d6" charge strategem to compensate for paint job) gives decent amount of DS. Not sure can I fit all on 50% limit though but at least 2 dreads should be possible.
Jidmah wrote: What makes you think that? They need to follow the deep strike beta rules like anyone else.
Nightlord1987 is referring to all the infiltration type stratagems that got errata changing them to extra movement instead of acting like a form of deep strike. Blood Axe Dead Sneaky strategem still functions like a form of deep strike while those others do not.
Bloodaxe is just deep strike after turn 2. It's the exact same wording as Tellyporta, except you pay 1 CP less for infantry with less than 9 PL.
An Orks v Knight battle report. I haven't watched it yet, so I have no idea what the lists are but the players are at least a bit more well versed in their armies than yesterdays stream. Could be fun to see what they bring to combat kights (hopefully not that darn stompa)
geargutz wrote: well, if there is no change to the kff on the megamek and the other units that can take it (curse you GW stream for getting my hopes up) then the consolation is that its the same kff as the index bikemek and normal mek have...so you can take the index meks without feeling too ham stringed.
unless im missing something that makes the new kff on the codex entries sooooo good?
No the kff is the exact same... the guy on the stream got it wrong when he said they don't have to be entirely within the bubble to get the effect.
An Orks v Knight battle report. I haven't watched it yet, so I have no idea what the lists are but the players are at least a bit more well versed in their armies than yesterdays stream. Could be fun to see what they bring to combat kights (hopefully not that darn stompa)
Pyrrhic victory for the knights. He forgot D6 damage on SAG. Missed charge with Deffrolla. Grot shield got bypassed and Nobz tagged.
Has the changes to the Traktor cannon been discussed? See the Tabletop Tactics batrep for the confirmation.
They are 1 shot each, STR 8 Ap -2 D6DMG
However they HIT automatically, and if the target is a flyer they roll 2 D6 for dmg and choose the highest. Additionally if a unit with FLY keyword is destroyed by this gun they AUTOMATICALLY blow up.
All of this for ONLY 45 points. Spamming these is going to be absolutely INSANE.
EldarExarch wrote: Has the changes to the Traktor cannon been discussed? See the Tabletop Tactics batrep for the confirmation.
They are 1 shot each, STR 8 Ap -2 D6DMG
However they HIT automatically, and if the target is a flyer they roll 2 D6 for dmg and choose the highest. Additionally if a unit with FLY keyword is destroyed by this gun they AUTOMATICALLY blow up.
All of this for ONLY 45 points. Spamming these is going to be absolutely INSANE.
Yep - good night Space Elves. Not insane, really, but pretty useful.
okay, this is kinda stupid. The Kombi-weapon with rokkit is 12pts (great! 8pts deduction like it should be!) But the rokkit launcha (the exact same thing) is still 12pts... huh...
So, question about the Bonebreaker Battlewagon... I just watched Winters' SEO review and he was talking about that the Deffrolla gets 3 extra attacks instead of the Deffrolla adding +3 to the models' WS (even though he kind of worded it as if the Deffrolla does indeed add to the models' WS and not add extra attacks). Anyone knows a definitive answer to this one?
lolman1c wrote: okay, this is kinda stupid. The Kombi-weapon with rokkit is 12pts (great! 8pts deduction like it should be!) But the rokkit launcha (the exact same thing) is still 12pts... huh...
EldarExarch wrote: Has the changes to the Traktor cannon been discussed? See the Tabletop Tactics batrep for the confirmation.
They are 1 shot each, STR 8 Ap -2 D6DMG
However they HIT automatically, and if the target is a flyer they roll 2 D6 for dmg and choose the highest. Additionally if a unit with FLY keyword is destroyed by this gun they AUTOMATICALLY blow up.
All of this for ONLY 45 points. Spamming these is going to be absolutely INSANE.
This has to be wrong. Auto st 8 hits d6 damage? on flyers??
lolman1c wrote: okay, this is kinda stupid. The Kombi-weapon with rokkit is 12pts (great! 8pts deduction like it should be!) But the rokkit launcha (the exact same thing) is still 12pts... huh...
EldarExarch wrote: Has the changes to the Traktor cannon been discussed? See the Tabletop Tactics batrep for the confirmation.
They are 1 shot each, STR 8 Ap -2 D6DMG
However they HIT automatically, and if the target is a flyer they roll 2 D6 for dmg and choose the highest. Additionally if a unit with FLY keyword is destroyed by this gun they AUTOMATICALLY blow up.
All of this for ONLY 45 points. Spamming these is going to be absolutely INSANE.
When you say flyer, do you mean as in it has the flyer battlefield role, or it has the fly keyword?
Because if its the latter, it would be really dangerous against necrons, Tau, Eldar and Dark Eldar, as a lot of their vehicles and best units have Fly.
EldarExarch wrote: Has the changes to the Traktor cannon been discussed? See the Tabletop Tactics batrep for the confirmation.
They are 1 shot each, STR 8 Ap -2 D6DMG
However they HIT automatically, and if the target is a flyer they roll 2 D6 for dmg and choose the highest. Additionally if a unit with FLY keyword is destroyed by this gun they AUTOMATICALLY blow up.
All of this for ONLY 45 points. Spamming these is going to be absolutely INSANE.
When you say flyer, do you mean as in it has the flyer battlefield role, or it has the fly keyword?
Because if its the latter, it would be really dangerous against necrons, Tau, Eldar and Dark Eldar, as a lot of their vehicles and best units have Fly.
Previous one was against keyword FLY. I don't imagine it has changed.
lolman1c wrote: okay, this is kinda stupid. The Kombi-weapon with rokkit is 12pts (great! 8pts deduction like it should be!) But the rokkit launcha (the exact same thing) is still 12pts... huh...
If you're firing the shoota at the same time then the rokkit is -1 to hit, so it's not exactly a huge improvement.
gungo wrote: What’s the price of nob bikers or someone please send me a pm w points link.
38 without gear if I'm reading the link from a few posts back correctly. So depending on Stabba, Big Choppa or PK should end up at around 45-50 a pop.
38
Big Choppa is 5
Stabba is 3
PK is 13
So 41 for stabba, 43 for big choppa and 51 for PK. Seems passable but not hyper-competitive to me. Think I'll make my Speed Freek Bikers into Nobs to gloriously charge into CC T1 along with a Wartrike Kind of wondering if I should give them Big Choppa's or Klaws.
lolman1c wrote: okay, this is kinda stupid. The Kombi-weapon with rokkit is 12pts (great! 8pts deduction like it should be!) But the rokkit launcha (the exact same thing) is still 12pts... huh...
If you're firing the shoota at the same time then the rokkit is -1 to hit, so it's not exactly a huge improvement.
It\s still better weapon even if it's marginal benefit so them being identical price IS stupid. Minor effect but then again 12 pts for rokkit launcha is ridiculously expensive anyway so the stupidity is rokkit being still 12 pts.
14 point nobs seems great to me. Basically 1 armor less than marines but an extra wound, extra strength and two extra attacks, for 1 point? If choppa still gives an attack, it's 3 extra attacks. Yes, please.
The Burna Trukk is a thing again. Cheap as chips and can use the shoot twice stratagem. With the cp, 48 auto hits. Yes, please.
Koptas are vastly cheaper. Not sure if two mobile rockkets at bs5+ are worth 54, though.
Lootas still half the value of autocannons. Why, GW, Why?
Trukks. Cheap enough to be mobile walls, even with nothing in them. Yes Please!
Funny how GW wants you to have certain things in your list, and take certain things out.
So my Dredd Mob list went down by about 243 points. That is so much vastly better than I could have possibly hoped. Not to mention price drops to nobs and well... just about everything I wanted a price drop for.
tneva82 wrote: Wish codex would have been as good as videos. Seems GW only hires competent people at the marketing department(plus Duncan)
Up till now codex looks pretty decent really. Doesn't look like it's going to destroy top tournament tables but that's hardly something to judge a codex by IMO. There's a nice bunch of mean tricks in there (especially in the "get warbikers and big walkers in CC" department) and marked improvements to shooting as well to make Orks more varied than just Green Tide. My only complaints thus far are the Squigbuggy (should be around 100 like the rest of 'em) and Stompa (but maybe IK just need a general price hike... how does it hold up against non-Knight LoWs? Still Stompa should've been around 750 including all gubbinz probably).
Well did the maths... because I only run like 40boyz and mainly run heavry stuff my list went from 2096 pts to 1927pts... so that's cool.. 169pts means I can comfortably add some stuff hear and there... I will be replacing my painboy for another weirdboy though... not only is he cheaper but 2 weirdboyz will mean i can run a snakebites detachment no problem.
lolman1c wrote: okay, this is kinda stupid. The Kombi-weapon with rokkit is 12pts (great! 8pts deduction like it should be!) But the rokkit launcha (the exact same thing) is still 12pts... huh...
If you're firing the shoota at the same time then the rokkit is -1 to hit, so it's not exactly a huge improvement.
It\s still better weapon even if it's marginal benefit so them being identical price IS stupid. Minor effect but then again 12 pts for rokkit launcha is ridiculously expensive anyway so the stupidity is rokkit being still 12 pts.
yeah, I can just not fire both and have the option to decide and still keep the 5bs. Also overwatch is better.
Funny how GW wants you to have certain things in your list, and take certain things out.
I don't think it has anything to do with that, because you and I value Lootas differently - especially if they are indeed 4+ armor.
You keep saying that word (4+). I don't think it means what you think it means.
WHERE ARE YOU GETTING THAT?
Out of thin air. It's been confirmed multiple times they are unchanged. Only way to get 4+ would be looted strategem(good luck ensuring you have vehicle blow next to them BEFORE they get shot and...well having one of your vehicles destroyed is generally bad to begin with....) and cover.
Lootas suck. They sucked before and they didn't get buffed here. They didn't get nerfed which is surprise but at least something.
Honestly, my true opinion is happy and sad. I'm extremely lucky GW wants my army to be the new thing so honestly most of my stuff got points reductions. (the dakka jet didn't but I'll live).
However, I'm also upset because other ork players have basically had their army nerfed because a few people at tournaments like to spam... and I'm not talking about boyz (even though people will have had their points go up by 100+pts or so). But the +8pts to painboy and warboss for me just kinda seems useless. (it's not a nerf to stop anyone from taking more, just kinda annoying.
plus the big mek in mega armour getting no adjustments (making me take a a 30pts more expensive model just because). I mean the teckmarine has a 2+ save and basically the same weapon with the same amount of attack... kinda seems weird how he is 57pts with everything and our mega one is 77pts before weapons! (mine is 113pts in total... so I'll just be taking the big mek from index just for the kff... or I might just not even take a big mek anymore. XD )
Yesterdays battle report did make me over react a lot (I admit that now) but I still feel the is real criticism to be had with this codex.
Out of thin air. It's been confirmed multiple times they are unchanged. Only way to get 4+ would be looted strategem(good luck ensuring you have vehicle blow next to them BEFORE they get shot and...well having one of your vehicles destroyed is generally bad to begin with....) and cover.
Lootas suck. They sucked before and they didn't get buffed here. They didn't get nerfed which is surprise but at least something.
Yea, not out of thin air. It's been floating around for a bit now.
Confirmed like how the GMG video didn't show that Burnas or MANZ changed points?
An Orks v Knight battle report. I haven't watched it yet, so I have no idea what the lists are but the players are at least a bit more well versed in their armies than yesterdays stream. Could be fun to see what they bring to combat kights (hopefully not that darn stompa)
Well knights won but surprisingly little left. Then again full knight army isn't most competive army to begin with and suffers most vs deep striking stuff so that plays to orks side. Also 50-50 roll with 30 boyz DZ charging worked so half the time that doesn't. Ork player was also moving at times incorrectly like moving bunch of grots, THEN moving weirdboy and then moving rest of grots creating circle through which weirdboy couldn't move though not sure how much moves like these would affect.
Also what was up with knight player CHAAAAAAAARGE attitude? He was worried about getting outshot by orks? Rushing into h2h just seems like playing to orks hand. Especially with deep strike coming in so stuff like charge all knights with zero overwatch became possibility. Why didn't knights initially stand back and shoot stuff dead from range rather than rush toward h2h ASAP? (also harpoon vs trukk rather than battlewagon?). Seems like typical GW BR intended to showcase faction rather than maximising efficiency.
looking at the pts, its quality makes it hard to tell some pts, but it looks like the killakan is now 40pts, and down 11pts from the index.
i run dreddmob. im glad to see the pts redutions in both kans/dredds/meganobz. the gmorkanaut is nice to have a reduction with extra shots but im not sure its enough to boost them to competitive level (out side of telyporting the gorkanaut right into the enemies face for maximum smashing).
im kinda confused on the purpose of the kan/dredd getting so many melee options. i get that it gives us options for anti tank or anti infantry, but why?
all our new kits are monobuild.not a single upgrade. why all of the sudden this increase in the options for this existing kit? unless your getting a new kit of them then you will have to change the claws on all your kans/dredds becasue back when you made them they were just the one wpn. im glad we have the options, but confused.
Funny how GW wants you to have certain things in your list, and take certain things out.
I don't think it has anything to do with that, because you and I value Lootas differently - especially if they are indeed 4+ armor.
You keep saying that word (4+). I don't think it means what you think it means.
WHERE ARE YOU GETTING THAT?
Out of thin air. It's been confirmed multiple times they are unchanged. Only way to get 4+ would be looted strategem(good luck ensuring you have vehicle blow next to them BEFORE they get shot and...well having one of your vehicles destroyed is generally bad to begin with....) and cover.
Lootas suck. They sucked before and they didn't get buffed here. They didn't get nerfed which is surprise but at least something.
Can't they fire out of an open top trukk, so more or less safe from damage until they have to get out with a +1 save. For 0.5CP
Or can't you loot your own destroyed transport?
geargutz wrote: looking at the pts, its quality makes it hard to tell some pts, but it looks like the killakan is now 40pts, and down 11pts from the index.
i run dreddmob. im glad to see the pts redutions in both kans/dredds/meganobz. the gmorkanaut is nice to have a reduction with extra shots but im not sure its enough to boost them to competitive level (out side of telyporting the gorkanaut right into the enemies face for maximum smashing).
im kinda confused on the purpose of the kan/dredd getting so many melee options. i get that it gives us options for anti tank or anti infantry, but why?
all our new kits are monobuild.not a single upgrade. why all of the sudden this increase in the options for this existing kit? unless your getting a new kit of them then you will have to change the claws on all your kans/dredds becasue back when you made them they were just the one wpn. im glad we have the options, but confused.
They're not mono build, 1 of my kanz has a drill and the other has a buzz saw. XD But super saw they don't get the traits... it's lore breaking to say the least as there were many grots who took on ork kulutre a lot. (there is even a weirdboy grot who was just a grot stood on another grots shoulder and when an ork was getting too noisy he would zap him and tell him he's just a weird boy XD ).
Honestly, kills kanz with Evil sunz would have been perfect! Just think of a bunch of them with rokkits running around firing them with 4+
Can't they fire out of an open top trukk, so more or less safe from damage until they have to get out with a +1 save. For 0.5CP
Or can't you loot your own destroyed transport?
0.5CP? What half CP strategems are out there anyway? And that's about only sensible way but then again that's 16% of your lootas dying and 70 or so points for trukk shield which isn't even that tough to remove. That's 190 or so pts for 12 lootas in trukk.
Loota strategem probably better for meganobz. Transport blows up? 1+ save! Though 35 pts per nob is pretty darn expensive :-/
geargutz wrote: looking at the pts, its quality makes it hard to tell some pts, but it looks like the killakan is now 40pts, and down 11pts from the index.
i run dreddmob. im glad to see the pts redutions in both kans/dredds/meganobz. the gmorkanaut is nice to have a reduction with extra shots but im not sure its enough to boost them to competitive level (out side of telyporting the gorkanaut right into the enemies face for maximum smashing).
im kinda confused on the purpose of the kan/dredd getting so many melee options. i get that it gives us options for anti tank or anti infantry, but why?
all our new kits are monobuild.not a single upgrade. why all of the sudden this increase in the options for this existing kit? unless your getting a new kit of them then you will have to change the claws on all your kans/dredds becasue back when you made them they were just the one wpn. im glad we have the options, but confused.
They're not mono build, 1 of my kanz has a drill and the other has a buzz saw. XD But super saw they don't get the traits... it's lore breaking to say the least as there were many grots who took on ork kulutre a lot. (there is even a weirdboy grot who was just a grot stood on another grots shoulder and when an ork was getting too noisy he would zap him and tell him he's just a weird boy XD ).
Honestly, kills kanz with Evil sunz would have been perfect! Just think of a bunch of them with rokkits running around firing them with 4+
Byt "new kits are monobuild" he refers to the new buggies. Not killa kans. Orks have been on model release draught clearly if kans are considered new kits still
Bad moon or deff skull kans would have been funny with all those rokkit and KMK's.
Funny how GW wants you to have certain things in your list, and take certain things out.
I don't think it has anything to do with that, because you and I value Lootas differently - especially if they are indeed 4+ armor.
You keep saying that word (4+). I don't think it means what you think it means.
WHERE ARE YOU GETTING THAT?
Out of thin air. It's been confirmed multiple times they are unchanged. Only way to get 4+ would be looted strategem(good luck ensuring you have vehicle blow next to them BEFORE they get shot and...well having one of your vehicles destroyed is generally bad to begin with....) and cover.
Lootas suck. They sucked before and they didn't get buffed here. They didn't get nerfed which is surprise but at least something.
Can't they fire out of an open top trukk, so more or less safe from damage until they have to get out with a +1 save. For 0.5CP
Or can't you loot your own destroyed transport?
Yes, if you buy the trukk...which actually now isn't that bad of an upgrade, but it's still 5 points and 1/2 cp (50% chance to get it back) for the extra wound that IG gets for 2pts and 0 cp, while still losing on on BS.
If autocannons were a stupid, broken unit then I could see lootas being made deliberately less efficient, but last I checked autocannons weren't tearing up top tables (or any tables for that matter.)
Honestly, right now my trukk and 8 burna boyz (I had it as that so i could fit elites in as well) is down 38pts. so there is room there to add an extra bike in for support.
But super saw they don't get the traits... it's lore breaking to say the least as there were many grots who took on ork kulutre a lot. (there is even a weirdboy grot who was just a grot stood on another grots shoulder and when an ork was getting too noisy he would zap him and tell him he's just a weird boy XD ).
Honestly, kills kanz with Evil sunz would have been perfect! Just think of a bunch of them with rokkits running around firing them with 4+
while i heard they dont have the "kulture" key word, there is a rule that says anything inside a battleforged detachment (exclude superhevy detach) gets kulture. i think there is some confusion here so dont take my word for it.
EldarExarch wrote: Has the changes to the Traktor cannon been discussed? See the Tabletop Tactics batrep for the confirmation.
They are 1 shot each, STR 8 Ap -2 D6DMG
However they HIT automatically, and if the target is a flyer they roll 2 D6 for dmg and choose the highest. Additionally if a unit with FLY keyword is destroyed by this gun they AUTOMATICALLY blow up.
All of this for ONLY 45 points. Spamming these is going to be absolutely INSANE.
When you say flyer, do you mean as in it has the flyer battlefield role, or it has the fly keyword?
Because if its the latter, it would be really dangerous against necrons, Tau, Eldar and Dark Eldar, as a lot of their vehicles and best units have Fly.
By that I mean the FLY keyword, so yes incredibly dangerous.
Automatically Appended Next Post: There was 3 just up yesterday on ebay done real nice with everything magnetized. Sort of regretting not getting them even though they went for $140
Automatically Appended Next Post: Someone was asking about Winters SEO review and his comments on the deffrolla for battlewagons.
It is still +3 to hit with it, but if you run the bonebreaker battlewagon (think thats what its called) it's an addition D6 hits! And now the deffrolla is +1 STR 2 DMG, so str 9, which again is really good.
EldarExarch wrote: Has the changes to the Traktor cannon been discussed? See the Tabletop Tactics batrep for the confirmation.
They are 1 shot each, STR 8 Ap -2 D6DMG
However they HIT automatically, and if the target is a flyer they roll 2 D6 for dmg and choose the highest. Additionally if a unit with FLY keyword is destroyed by this gun they AUTOMATICALLY blow up.
All of this for ONLY 45 points. Spamming these is going to be absolutely INSANE.
When you say flyer, do you mean as in it has the flyer battlefield role, or it has the fly keyword?
Because if its the latter, it would be really dangerous against necrons, Tau, Eldar and Dark Eldar, as a lot of their vehicles and best units have Fly.
By that I mean the FLY keyword, so yes incredibly dangerous.
Traktor Kannon costs 45pts so its way cheaper than the KMK now. But I don't know if the KMK gets the new rules the Morkanaut one has. if it does a morkanaut gets 3D3 shots at S8 AP-3 D6 damage, so averages 6 shots. Against a non -to hit model thats 3 hits, against a-1 thats 2 and against -2 that is 1 on average. So against a flyer with no - to hit the KMK is still better by a fair amount, but as soon as you tack on any negative to hit modifiers the Traktor Kannon wins hands down.
EldarExarch wrote: Has the changes to the Traktor cannon been discussed? See the Tabletop Tactics batrep for the confirmation.
They are 1 shot each, STR 8 Ap -2 D6DMG
However they HIT automatically, and if the target is a flyer they roll 2 D6 for dmg and choose the highest. Additionally if a unit with FLY keyword is destroyed by this gun they AUTOMATICALLY blow up.
All of this for ONLY 45 points. Spamming these is going to be absolutely INSANE.
When you say flyer, do you mean as in it has the flyer battlefield role, or it has the fly keyword?
Because if its the latter, it would be really dangerous against necrons, Tau, Eldar and Dark Eldar, as a lot of their vehicles and best units have Fly.
By that I mean the FLY keyword, so yes incredibly dangerous.
Automatically Appended Next Post: There was 3 just up yesterday on ebay done real nice with everything magnetized. Sort of regretting not getting them even though they went for $140
Automatically Appended Next Post: Someone was asking about Winters SEO review and his comments on the deffrolla for battlewagons.
It is still +3 to hit with it, but if you run the bonebreaker battlewagon (think thats what its called) it's an addition D6 hits! And now the deffrolla is +1 STR 2 DMG, so str 9, which again is really good.
Awww yisss Want to get an Arachnarok Spider as a proxy for one, good to hear it'll have a sufficiently killy melee profile to represent the enormous pointy legs of the thing. Now to find some rocket engines to strap onto it (it's still Evil Sunz so obviously red-painted spiders with rocket engines go fasta)
EldarExarch wrote: Has the changes to the Traktor cannon been discussed? See the Tabletop Tactics batrep for the confirmation.
They are 1 shot each, STR 8 Ap -2 D6DMG
However they HIT automatically, and if the target is a flyer they roll 2 D6 for dmg and choose the highest. Additionally if a unit with FLY keyword is destroyed by this gun they AUTOMATICALLY blow up.
All of this for ONLY 45 points. Spamming these is going to be absolutely INSANE.
When you say flyer, do you mean as in it has the flyer battlefield role, or it has the fly keyword?
Because if its the latter, it would be really dangerous against necrons, Tau, Eldar and Dark Eldar, as a lot of their vehicles and best units have Fly.
By that I mean the FLY keyword, so yes incredibly dangerous.
Traktor Kannon costs 45pts so its way cheaper than the KMK now. But I don't know if the KMK gets the new rules the Morkanaut one has. if it does a morkanaut gets 3D3 shots at S8 AP-3 D6 damage, so averages 6 shots. Against a non -to hit model thats 3 hits, against a-1 thats 2 and against -2 that is 1 on average. So against a flyer with no - to hit the KMK is still better by a fair amount, but as soon as you tack on any negative to hit modifiers the Traktor Kannon wins hands down.
I believe the KMK is the same as Index except it now deals d6 damage
Hmm so looks like I'll be doing da Red and Blue ones, which easily enough is what I started them off as anyways. The only repainting I have to do are my Bad Moon Shootaz into Evil Suns.
Then again knight player played oddly charging right away rather than shooting. Ork also flat out cheated several times on movement. And all knight list isn't even most competive armies out there with lack of chaff which pays doubly so for orks. Oh and orks succeeded in big 50-50 roll.
So basically opposing army was loaded in orks favour, opposing army was played poorly playing into orks hand(very reminiscience of GW style BR's to showcase new faction by making sure they get to use their abilities rather than play smartly and ensure new faction doesn't get to use their abilities freely), they succeeded in 50-50 roll at one point that was big one and ork player cheated.
Not sold yet. Give proper army against them that's played to it's strenght and have the ork player not cheat.
tneva82 wrote: Then again knight player played oddly charging right away rather than shooting. Ork also flat out cheated several times on movement. And all knight list isn't even most competive armies out there with lack of chaff which pays doubly so for orks. Oh and orks succeeded in big 50-50 roll.
So basically opposing army was loaded in orks favour, opposing army was played poorly playing into orks hand(very reminiscience of GW style BR's to showcase new faction by making sure they get to use their abilities rather than play smartly and ensure new faction doesn't get to use their abilities freely), they succeeded in 50-50 roll at one point that was big one and ork player cheated.
Not sold yet. Give proper army against them that's played to it's strenght and have the ork player not cheat.
remember when the index's dropped and MWG played a BatRep of Ultrasmurfs Vs Orkz and everyone showed that as evidence that orkz were great? forgetting to mention that the Smurf brought a bunch of single shot weapons or D6 shot weapons that had S8 or higher And the ork player had something like 9 times as many models
Just want to temper the hope with reality - I don’t think you can loot a destroyed vehicle, at least not with the transported units inside.
When a vehicle is destroyed, two things happen.
1) units disembark
2) loot stratagem
“Ok, so I can order the sequence how I want”
Except, that disembarking is triggered upon vehicle destruction; which means, if the units weren’t on the table prior to that moment, then no looting could take place - there was no second trigger, no rewinding to “destroyed” moment.
Not turning this thread into a real YMDC; we can take it to that forum instead - I’d love to be wrong, but I think we’ll need to wait until the faq happens to see this resolved; so don’t count your squigs before they breed.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
An Actual Englishman wrote: Lol at this topic. It's devolved into a few general factions something like this;
Non-Ork players - 'I don't play Orks, but wow they look super strong! Look at those stratagems! Those relics and Warlord Traits! Amazing!'
Mixed faction players (including Orks) - 'Orks look really strong, of course we don't have enough information to judge them perfectly but GW seem to know what they're doing and we should trust them. I'm sure there's reasons for the nerfs that we're just not seeing yet. Except the Stompa. We can all agree the Stompa is garbage. Chapter Approved will fix everything because all of those severely undercosted units will increase in price. Just like last CA.'
Ork players - 'Almost everything we have seen so far points to GW still not understanding Ork gameplay and this concerns me. It seems they still put too much value in cqc units with no invulnerable in cqc. So far there have been more points increases than points decreases some of which are on units that were overcosted to begin with. Why are we the only faction to pay for traits on our basic troop? Why are people telling me that suboptimal units are somehow incredible with stratagems and traits? It seems that my fears around GW not understanding the army are coming true and that sucks after such a long wait for full rules.'
I can't wait for the codex reviews to drop. We'll see where Orks stand but as of now we look like the only faction to get an overall nerf out of a codex release. Stratagems and traits are not enough to make a unit as bad as Warbikes good. The same goes for any other bad unit in the Dex. Let's see what the reviews say.
How are we feeling about this now, that the codex is actually starting to leak real information?
...we’ll wait until the codex releases...
...we’ll wait until the faq...
...we’ll wait until CA...
...we’ll wait until next edition...
My take is that the codex is entirely based about Tellyporta, Da Jump, and Evil Suns charging t1/t2; outside of that, the rest was largely nerfed - random units, characters, Boyz, and other; got nerfed for no reason. A few units got buffed; but...
Regarding the Stomping... it may actually be appropriately priced in that it's super resiliant.
When grot riggers gives it a d3 wounds back a turn.
Yeah, its not killy like IK... but, it's a big enough threat that your opponent need to deal with.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
fe40k wrote: Just want to temper the hope with reality - I don’t think you can loot a destroyed vehicle, at least not with the transported units inside.
When a vehicle is destroyed, two things happen.
1) units disembark
2) loot stratagem
“Ok, so I can order the sequence how I want”
Except, that disembarking is triggered upon vehicle destruction; which means, if the units weren’t on the table prior to that moment, then no looting could take place - there was no second trigger, no rewinding to “destroyed” moment.
Not turning this thread into a real YMDC; we can take it to that forum instead - I’d love to be wrong, but I think we’ll need to wait until the faq happens to see this resolved; so don’t count your squigs before they breed.
Except my read is that all of that happens at the same time... so, it seems kosher.
fe40k wrote: Just want to temper the hope with reality - I don’t think you can loot a destroyed vehicle, at least not with the transported units inside.
When a vehicle is destroyed, two things happen.
1) units disembark
2) loot stratagem
“Ok, so I can order the sequence how I want”
Except, that disembarking is triggered upon vehicle destruction; which means, if the units weren’t on the table prior to that moment, then no looting could take place - there was no second trigger, no rewinding to “destroyed” moment.
1 - vehicle goes to 0 points
2 - passengers disembark
3 - passengers take wounds
4 - vehicle is removed.
They are on the table at 4...but It will need a faq.
The whole idea of looting is that the orks are picking through the vehicles carcass. In the game, the destroyed vehicle just vanishes without a trace. Not even remotely fluffy.
I will be sending a letter to GW to implore them that the FAQ allows looting the vehicle before it vanishes. It's the only thing that makes even the remotest sense.
whembly wrote: Regarding the Stomping... it may actually be appropriately priced in that it's super resiliant.
When grot riggers gives it a d3 wounds back a turn.
Yeah, its not killy like IK... but, it's a big enough threat that your opponent need to deal with.
Well, you can relatively cheaply stuff a Big Mek with KFF inside. Then again, 850 points is really steep. I'm certainly not in a hurry to buy it, even after the buffs. Think Tellyported Bonebreaker Wagons, Meganobz and Gorkanauts are a better source of heavy-duty krumping and Gunwagons, KMK and Tankbustaz (hell, maybe even Morkanauts) will be a better source of AT dakka.
fe40k wrote: Just want to temper the hope with reality - I don’t think you can loot a destroyed vehicle, at least not with the transported units inside.
When a vehicle is destroyed, two things happen.
1) units disembark
2) loot stratagem
“Ok, so I can order the sequence how I want”
Except, that disembarking is triggered upon vehicle destruction; which means, if the units weren’t on the table prior to that moment, then no looting could take place - there was no second trigger, no rewinding to “destroyed” moment.
Not turning this thread into a real YMDC; we can take it to that forum instead - I’d love to be wrong, but I think we’ll need to wait until the faq happens to see this resolved; so don’t count your squigs before they breed.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
An Actual Englishman wrote: Lol at this topic. It's devolved into a few general factions something like this;
Non-Ork players - 'I don't play Orks, but wow they look super strong! Look at those stratagems! Those relics and Warlord Traits! Amazing!'
Mixed faction players (including Orks) - 'Orks look really strong, of course we don't have enough information to judge them perfectly but GW seem to know what they're doing and we should trust them. I'm sure there's reasons for the nerfs that we're just not seeing yet. Except the Stompa. We can all agree the Stompa is garbage. Chapter Approved will fix everything because all of those severely undercosted units will increase in price. Just like last CA.'
Ork players - 'Almost everything we have seen so far points to GW still not understanding Ork gameplay and this concerns me. It seems they still put too much value in cqc units with no invulnerable in cqc. So far there have been more points increases than points decreases some of which are on units that were overcosted to begin with. Why are we the only faction to pay for traits on our basic troop? Why are people telling me that suboptimal units are somehow incredible with stratagems and traits? It seems that my fears around GW not understanding the army are coming true and that sucks after such a long wait for full rules.'
I can't wait for the codex reviews to drop. We'll see where Orks stand but as of now we look like the only faction to get an overall nerf out of a codex release. Stratagems and traits are not enough to make a unit as bad as Warbikes good. The same goes for any other bad unit in the Dex. Let's see what the reviews say.
How are we feeling about this now, that the codex is actually starting to leak real information?
...we’ll wait until the codex releases...
...we’ll wait until the faq...
...we’ll wait until CA...
...we’ll wait until next edition...
My take is that the codex is entirely based about Tellyporta, Da Jump, and Evil Suns charging t1/t2; outside of that, the rest was largely nerfed - random units, characters, Boyz, and other; got nerfed for no reason. A few units got buffed; but...
the live stream already say the disembark happens before the vehicle is destroyed so you just play it after.
whembly wrote: Regarding the Stomping... it may actually be appropriately priced in that it's super resiliant.
When grot riggers gives it a d3 wounds back a turn.
Yeah, its not killy like IK... but, it's a big enough threat that your opponent need to deal with.
Well, you can relatively cheaply stuff a Big Mek with KFF inside. Then again, 850 points is really steep. I'm certainly not in a hurry to buy it, even after the buffs. Think Tellyported Bonebreaker Wagons, Meganobz and Gorkanauts are a better source of heavy-duty krumping and Gunwagons, KMK and Tankbustaz (hell, maybe even Morkanauts) will be a better source of AT dakka.
Right now for about the price of 1 stompa you can bring 3 Morkanaut in with 54 wounds, built in kff that spreads out to protect other vehicles, 9d3 (basically lascannon shots), lots of dakka from rokkits and big shootas, 3 KMB shots. A lot more useful than a stompa... hell, bring some variety and have 1 mork and two gorks for just over the price of a stompa. The 1 mork will protect the two gorks as they fire 36 shots and do a ton of damage. these things are no where near as good as a knight but with the huge 60pts reduction I will be fielding mine a bit more.
lolman1c wrote: the live stream already say the disembark happens before the vehicle is destroyed so you just play it after.
Unfortunately the live stream also claimed the KFF rules were changed, and recent reviews have shown that to be false. Due to such inconsistencies you will have people arguing about looting vehicles after disembarking until there is an official FAQ concerning it. I know HIWPI, but I know better than to expect a claim on a live stream to officially resolve this debate. Fortunately for me, all the people I play with will be going with the most sensible ruling of being able to loot after disembark.
Just did a test with the three morkanauts for 930pts... it did 30 wounds with it's main gun alone on the stompa... yeah, I'll take a morkanaut over a stompa anyday. XD
EldarExarch wrote: Has the changes to the Traktor cannon been discussed? See the Tabletop Tactics batrep for the confirmation.
They are 1 shot each, STR 8 Ap -2 D6DMG
However they HIT automatically, and if the target is a flyer they roll 2 D6 for dmg and choose the highest. Additionally if a unit with FLY keyword is destroyed by this gun they AUTOMATICALLY blow up.
All of this for ONLY 45 points. Spamming these is going to be absolutely INSANE.
When you say flyer, do you mean as in it has the flyer battlefield role, or it has the fly keyword?
Because if its the latter, it would be really dangerous against necrons, Tau, Eldar and Dark Eldar, as a lot of their vehicles and best units have Fly.
By that I mean the FLY keyword, so yes incredibly dangerous.
Automatically Appended Next Post: There was 3 just up yesterday on ebay done real nice with everything magnetized. Sort of regretting not getting them even though they went for $140
Automatically Appended Next Post: Someone was asking about Winters SEO review and his comments on the deffrolla for battlewagons.
It is still +3 to hit with it, but if you run the bonebreaker battlewagon (think thats what its called) it's an addition D6 hits! And now the deffrolla is +1 STR 2 DMG, so str 9, which again is really good.
Awww yisss Want to get an Arachnarok Spider as a proxy for one, good to hear it'll have a sufficiently killy melee profile to represent the enormous pointy legs of the thing. Now to find some rocket engines to strap onto it (it's still Evil Sunz so obviously red-painted spiders with rocket engines go fasta)
you sir are brilliant! always wanted to do this and its 10 pounds cheaper as well!
gungo wrote: I keep hearing deathskull kmk are better then badmoons kmk hiwever i thought Mek guns don’t get clan/kultur traits.?
Units comprised entirely of Gretchin models can't gain Kultur traits. However, we don't know yet whether Mek Guns have the Gretchin keyword or not. They do in the Index, so most likely they will in the Codex, which is extremely disappointing.
EDIT: Found a video with the Mek Gun page. They do indeed have the Gretchin keyword. So no Kultur on them sadly.
mob up a squad of 10 and 15
have them either deathskull or badmoons for improving shooting
stick them in terrain if possible for cover save
have a squad of 30ish grots nearby with runtherd to keep them from running.
when the lootas are targeted then you activate grotshield
lootas still get their saves before grots are removed
use double shoot strat (badmoon only i think) to shoot twice (not sure how many cp it costs)
lootas x25 (425)
grots x30 (90)
runtherd (35? hard to see the price)
and 2 total command pts for some survivable lootas with decent enough dakka
might be good, might not. worth trying out.
also i hear that the traktor kannon just autohits (flat out, no requirement) and is now 46ish range. might be good enough to replace the kmk as the mekgun of choice (since they might not get to have a kulture now).
edit
personal opinoon on what i see.
the codex is a lateral move.
we got some good stuf, some meh stuf, some bad stuf, and some great stuff.
the codex seems like its a return to "toys before boys" (personally i prefer this, but i do understand why green tide players would be upset)
gungo wrote: I keep hearing deathskull kmk are better then badmoons kmk hiwever i thought Mek guns don’t get clan/kultur traits.?
Units comprised entirely of Gretchin models can't gain Kultur traits. However, we don't know yet whether Mek Guns have the Gretchin keyword or not. They do in the Index, so most likely they will in the Codex, which is extremely disappointing.
EDIT: Found a video with the Mek Gun page. They do indeed have the Gretchin keyword. So no Kultur on them sadly.
Spoiler:
But they are not compolsed entirely of gretchin models.
gungo wrote: I keep hearing deathskull kmk are better then badmoons kmk hiwever i thought Mek guns don’t get clan/kultur traits.?
Units comprised entirely of Gretchin models can't gain Kultur traits. However, we don't know yet whether Mek Guns have the Gretchin keyword or not. They do in the Index, so most likely they will in the Codex, which is extremely disappointing.
EDIT: Found a video with the Mek Gun page. They do indeed have the Gretchin keyword. So no Kultur on them sadly.
Spoiler:
I would really like for them to clarify that in an FAQ. Its a little murky as it is and it seems like their intention is for grots squads to not have kulturs, but overlooked that mek gunz also would be affected
JimOnMars wrote: But they are not compolsed entirely of gretchin models.
Except they are. The Grot Gunners aren't a separate line anymore like they were in the Index. The whole unit now has the Gretchin keyword. They can't get Kultur.
Killa Kans picked it up too, so no traits for them either.
mob up a squad of 10 and 15
have them either deathskull or badmoons for improving shooting
stick them in terrain if possible for cover save
have a squad of 30ish grots nearby with runtherd to keep them from running.
when the lootas are targeted then you activate grotshield
lootas still get their saves before grots are removed
use double shoot strat (badmoon only i think) to shoot twice (not sure how many cp it costs)
lootas x25 (425)
grots x30 (90)
runtherd (35? hard to see the price)
and 2 total command pts for some survivable lootas with decent enough dakka
might be good, might not. worth trying out.
I wonder if grotshield works with vehicles. What if you put the lootas in a battlewagon, the grotshield the battlewagon? Lots of points to waste, but the 20 lootas might survive the game.
I also wonder if you could grotshield a stompa. Imagine the volcano cannon output getting blocked by 4 grots?
JimOnMars wrote: But they are not compolsed entirely of gretchin models.
Except they are. The Grot Gunners aren't a separate line anymore like they were in the Index. The whole unit now has the Gretchin keyword. They can't get Kultur.
Killa Kans picked it up too, so no traits for them either.
Gretchin keyword <> Gretchin model. Because Gretchin are a unit and a keyword, the rule could mean either.
The gun is clearly not a Gretchin model. It's a Mek Gun Model.
I would really like for them to clarify that in an FAQ. Its a little murky as it is and it seems like their intention is for grots squads to not have kulturs, but overlooked that mek gunz also would be affected
I think it's quite intentional, because it would be too strong in my opinion.
I wonder if grotshield works with vehicles. What if you put the lootas in a battlewagon, the grotshield the battlewagon? Lots of points to waste, but the 20 lootas might survive the game.
I also wonder if you could grotshield a stompa. Imagine the volcano cannon output getting blocked by 4 grots?
im pretty sure the mini wargaming guys said if an ork infantry target was targeted
(as an added note the miniwargaming guys were the only ones ive seen so far on utube that think the mekshop is no good.)
Except they are. The Grot Gunners aren't a separate line anymore like they were in the Index. The whole unit now has the Gretchin keyword. They can't get Kultur.
Killa Kans picked it up too, so no traits for them either.
Gretchin keyword <> Gretchin model. Because Gretchin are a unit and a keyword, the rule could mean either.
The gun is clearly not a Gretchin model. It's a Mek Gun Model.
If it has the Gretchin keyword then it is a Gretchin model the same way Tzaangors are Heretic Astartes without actually being CSM.
Well. I was actually going to buy any of this new stuff but with all the nerfs I'm just going to continue to not work on my ork army and maybe use something GW cares about in the slightest. Hopefully the next CA (the one next year) changes the orks to reflect the drop in sales they'll see from another joke code-..oh who am I kidding, all ork codecies are jokes.
So what’s the lowdown on the new Ork vehicles? Which ones are worth taking in a list? I can’t get them all, and as much as I want to just buy the ones that look the coolest...I’d need to be a little more practical...can someone point me to the thread page that discusses the merits (that have been leaked), etc of the new buggies/trike?
That's how keywords work. The fact that there's a unit called Gretchin is entirely irrelevant, because it's all about the keywords. If the Gretchin unit didn't have the Gretchin keyword then it wouldn't count as a Gretchin unit, strange as that might sound. Look, I get it; I had high hopes for my Deffskull Mek Guns which are now in ruins, but it is absolutely clear: RAW, Mek Guns are a Gretchin unit and cannot gain Clan Kultur. And if you want to go by RAI, the Grot rule fluff says that Grots can never be truly part of a Clan, and no matter how we slice it, Mek Guns are crewed exclusively by Gretchin.
JimOnMars wrote: Question regarding the Mek guns...do other armies have artillery or tank units that cannot get chapter traits? How common is this?
Space Marines and Chaos Space Marines on everything outside of dreads or hellbrutes.
Outside of that, very little comes to mind. In terms of vehicles, Taurox Primes outside of a Scion detachment, and Valkyries don't get traits, but they are also not mainline tank/artillery units. Eldar have an infantry unit I believe that don't get their trait, and I am honestly unsure of Kroot and Tau Auxiliaries. Seems like Gretchin are being given the same treatment as auxiliary units do in other codices - they don't get the detachment bonuses, but they won't take them away either.
Huh. So, you can't buy two of the six new buggies without buying speedfreaks? Interesting choice. I guess you're getting 6 bikes at 3/4s price (at least in US$), but that isn't particularly amazing.
Voss wrote: Huh. So, you can't buy two of the six new buggies without buying speedfreaks? Interesting choice. I guess you're getting 6 bikes at 3/4s price (at least in US$), but that isn't particularly amazing.
We assume they will come separately later. If you want the dragsta, though, pony up the $150.
Fango wrote: So what’s the lowdown on the new Ork vehicles? Which ones are worth taking in a list? I can’t get them all, and as much as I want to just buy the ones that look the coolest...I’d need to be a little more practical...can someone point me to the thread page that discusses the merits (that have been leaked), etc of the new buggies/trike?
Voss wrote: Huh. So, you can't buy two of the six new buggies without buying speedfreaks? Interesting choice. I guess you're getting 6 bikes at 3/4s price (at least in US$), but that isn't particularly amazing.
We assume they will come separately later. If you want the dragsta, though, pony up the $150.
Thats what the guy at my local GW store said today (for what its worth). His assumption is theyll come out as seperate kits a few months down the road
Welp this is aggravating for me. I am buying into orks and all I see are people complaing that they will pay 1 point more for boyz and stormboyz
Never mind that boyz now have strategems that can make them dangerous, kulturs that make them dangerous, and even a snazzy new Dakka Dakka Dakka rule that makes them dangerous.
No no, none of that means they sould of increased in points by 1. It did not affect their ability to kill things whats so ever. No, even a 6+ invulnerable save didnt help increase their survival rate even a tiny bit, no. They are exactly the same as they were in the index and had no synergestic benefits at all.
Lysenis wrote: Welp this is aggravating for me. I am buying into orks and all I see are people complaing that they will pay 1 point more for boyz and stormboyz
Never mind that boyz now have strategems that can make them dangerous, kulturs that make them dangerous, and even a snazzy new Dakka Dakka Dakka rule that makes them dangerous.
No no, none of that means they sould of increased in points by 1. It did not affect their ability to kill things whats so ever. No, even a 6+ invulnerable save didnt help increase their survival rate even a tiny bit, no. They are exactly the same as they were in the index and had no synergestic benefits at all.
welp this is aggravating for me. i have had orks for a few editions and i see a bunch of non ork players and new player coming into orks complaining about the veteran ork players.
never mind we have played orks longer then any of the newbies and understand the strengths and weaknesses of the faction and can understand with what we have seen so far that while we did get some good stuff we have also been shafted with other things, oh no, we are whiners when GW gives us a half effort codex.
see how annoying it is for us veterans for all you newbies to orks not "getting it"?
whembly wrote: Regarding the Stomping... it may actually be appropriately priced in that it's super resiliant.
When grot riggers gives it a d3 wounds back a turn.
Okay so let's see how that would have helped me:
1st game: Shot in one turn. No grot rigger
2nd game: Shot in one turn. No grot rigger
3rd game: 36 wounds in one turn. Let's assume grot rigger fixed 3 wounds. 7 wounds left. It suffered dozen or so wounds anyway next round.
lolman1c wrote: the live stream already say the disembark happens before the vehicle is destroyed so you just play it after.
Unfortunately the live stream also claimed the KFF rules were changed, and recent reviews have shown that to be false. Due to such inconsistencies you will have people arguing about looting vehicles after disembarking until there is an official FAQ concerning it. I know HIWPI, but I know better than to expect a claim on a live stream to officially resolve this debate. Fortunately for me, all the people I play with will be going with the most sensible ruling of being able to loot after disembark.
Here's novel concept. Let's see what rules say? "if transport is destroyed any units embarked within immediately disembar(see below) before transport model is removed".
So clearly disembarking happens AFTER vehicle is destroyed but BEFORE model is removed. Question then is can loota strategem used between that moment.
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gungo wrote: I keep hearing deathskull kmk are better then badmoons kmk hiwever i thought Mek guns don’t get clan/kultur traits.?
That was based on idea BEFORE the "no kultur for gretchin" thing came upon. Now it's irrelevant.
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Voss wrote: Huh. So, you can't buy two of the six new buggies without buying speedfreaks? Interesting choice. I guess you're getting 6 bikes at 3/4s price (at least in US$), but that isn't particularly amazing.
Warglaives were similar at start only buyable from the forgebane. I'm willing to bet money the buggies WILL come later. GW wants that kit to sell as much as possible. Also it's very likely speed freak box set will eventually come out of sale once the board game parts(which GW outsource) run out of stock as it would cost GW likely too much to be worth it. Much like all other boxed game sets tend to go. Not immediate event so no need to panic buy but next year this time I expect no speed freak box on sale anymore.
Billagio wrote: I would really like for them to clarify that in an FAQ. Its a little murky as it is and it seems like their intention is for grots squads to not have kulturs, but overlooked that mek gunz also would be affected
I think this is very much intentional. In previous codices kanz and gretchin were excluded from benefiting army-wide rules as well, because they simply aren't orks.
Billagio wrote: I would really like for them to clarify that in an FAQ. Its a little murky as it is and it seems like their intention is for grots squads to not have kulturs, but overlooked that mek gunz also would be affected
I think this is very much intentional. In previous codices kanz and gretchin were excluded from benefiting army-wide rules as well, because they simply aren't orks.
well if this is true then it looks like the kilakanz are probably going to stay on the shelf. though i think with meganobz getting a pts drop then i will dajump those now right into the enemy in place of the killakanz. as far as mekguns i think ill do the traktor kannons, it seems they autohit now and can realy hurt units with fly. will have to see.
i have a list centered around these units over on the ork speculation thread (not gonna post it here becasue it would be a little to off topic of new/rumors).
Lysenis wrote: Welp this is aggravating for me. I am buying into orks and all I see are people complaing that they will pay 1 point more for boyz and stormboyz
Never mind that boyz now have strategems that can make them dangerous, kulturs that make them dangerous, and even a snazzy new Dakka Dakka Dakka rule that makes them dangerous.
No no, none of that means they sould of increased in points by 1. It did not affect their ability to kill things whats so ever. No, even a 6+ invulnerable save didnt help increase their survival rate even a tiny bit, no. They are exactly the same as they were in the index and had no synergestic benefits at all.
welp this is aggravating for me. i have had orks for a few editions and i see a bunch of non ork players and new player coming into orks complaining about the veteran ork players.
never mind we have played orks longer then any of the newbies and understand the strengths and weaknesses of the faction and can understand with what we have seen so far that while we did get some good stuff we have also been shafted with other things, oh no, we are whiners when GW gives us a half effort codex.
see how annoying it is for us veterans for all you newbies to orks not "getting it"?
Oh absolutely I get it but unless your goal is to be the ONLY ork players around, tone it down.
People read this and react accordingly. Oddly enough some people take what is said on dakkadakka at face value, fools that they could be and this puts them off from either starting the hobby, enjoying the game, or even give it a glance.
This is EASILY proved by threads like this about Horus Heresy Adeptus Titanicus because some people only saw a price tag and not what you got for that tag. Primarily 2/3rds a standard army for that game. Pretty sure 2/3rds of an 40k army is more expensive yet people read this and make their purchasing decision. OH and that 2/3rds comprises of models you wont need more than what you got. Sure you can get one more Warlord but thats just pure excess at best. Now I have to work far harder to drum interest into the game thanks to threads just like this.
Tone it down, figure out how to work with what good things you got (which is a TON) and move on. Stop whining, the codex is written and nothing will change for at least a few weeks for the errata and faq.
Codex shifted semi-decent(as in maybe avoid wipeout) build and into another of about same level while killing the original. Orks are still bottom tier only ahead grey knights so not much orks got. And if you aren't owning traktor kannons(Which were worthless before) and evil sun walkers you need to go shopping a lot.
The codex was just one exercise of GW figuring what they want to sell next. No more boyz sales needed so let's get them more mek guns(costing ridiculous amount) and walkers. Neither which players generally had in spades.
If you wanted codex where you might have at least 40% win rate with number of useful builds you didn't get it. But sure enjoy losing most games with your evil sun walkers if that's your cup of tea. Others might want to have other kind of builds and want to win more than once in a blue moon.
tneva82 wrote: Codex shifted semi-decent(as in maybe avoid wipeout) build and into another of about same level while killing the original. Orks are still bottom tier only ahead grey knights so not much orks got. And if you aren't owning traktor kannons(Which were worthless before) and evil sun walkers you need to go shopping a lot.
The codex was just one exercise of GW figuring what they want to sell next. No more boyz sales needed so let's get them more mek guns(costing ridiculous amount) and walkers. Neither which players generally had in spades.
If you wanted codex where you might have at least 40% win rate with number of useful builds you didn't get it. But sure enjoy losing most games with your evil sun walkers if that's your cup of tea. Others might want to have other kind of builds and want to win more than once in a blue moon.
You are going to have to prove that one.
Yes they are not broken but bottom tier? You think they cant win against space marines? IF GK are the lowest of the low how do they fair against demons? After watching a bat rep of Khorne Demons vs a stompa and goffs (both ridiculous lists) I think your estimation is off and completely knee jerk because you didnt get what you wanted. Tough luck buttercup. Suck it up, find what you can do to make the 'dex good because from what I see, its mid tier which is where i wish ALL armies to be. Then the game is actually a challenge.
Oh absolutely I get it but unless your goal is to be the ONLY ork players around, tone it down.
People read this and react accordingly. Oddly enough some people take what is said on dakkadakka at face value, fools that they could be and this puts them off from either starting the hobby, enjoying the game, or even give it a glance.
oh, lets imagine nothings wrong and be all "wow, im sure glad GW farted in my general direction" "sniff sniff" "man, im so glad for suppar.
This is EASILY proved by threads like this about Horus Heresy Adeptus Titanicus because some people only saw a price tag and not what you got for that tag. Primarily 2/3rds a standard army for that game. Pretty sure 2/3rds of an 40k army is more expensive yet people read this and make their purchasing decision. OH and that 2/3rds comprises of models you wont need more than what you got. Sure you can get one more Warlord but thats just pure excess at best. Now I have to work far harder to drum interest into the game thanks to threads just like this.
false equivalency. FW doesnt sell well mainly for its high prices...and also with a new edition and FW it staying in 7th (wich got a realy bad repuation due to GWs part) its not surprising they dont sell well.
personaly i am fine if FW flops, but thats my hate boner for all thing spacemarine produced by GW/FW showing.
but in all seriosness, you seem to be only paying attention to some of us. i tink we are getting some buffs, but nerfs in other areas. the problem is that the stuff that looks like its getting nerfed was the only thing that was keeping us barely alive with an index.
so we will get more precise ideas of how orks will do after we get the codex and play it for ourselves. but we are not gonna let up on any negatives we find. sure someone might get discouraged, but thats mainly anybody that is convinced by public opinion, and aslo the person who thinks they can get easy wins with the new codex. anybody interested in the hoby side will just buy the models. those who have a true passion for getting into orks will get into it.
text removed.
Reds8n
fair enough Reds8n. i guess what i mean is that if your here just to complain about our "whining" then maybe you should find something more constructive to add to the conversation.
Oh absolutely I get it but unless your goal is to be the ONLY ork players around, tone it down.
People read this and react accordingly. Oddly enough some people take what is said on dakkadakka at face value, fools that they could be and this puts them off from either starting the hobby, enjoying the game, or even give it a glance.
oh, lets imagine nothings wrong and be all "wow, im sure glad GW farted in my general direction" "sniff sniff" "man, im so glad for suppar.
This is EASILY proved by threads like this about Horus Heresy Adeptus Titanicus because some people only saw a price tag and not what you got for that tag. Primarily 2/3rds a standard army for that game. Pretty sure 2/3rds of an 40k army is more expensive yet people read this and make their purchasing decision. OH and that 2/3rds comprises of models you wont need more than what you got. Sure you can get one more Warlord but thats just pure excess at best. Now I have to work far harder to drum interest into the game thanks to threads just like this.
false equivalency. FW doesnt sell well mainly for its high prices...and also with a new edition and FW it staying in 7th (wich got a realy bad repuation due to GWs part) its not surprising they dont sell well.
personaly i am fine if FW flops, but thats my hate boner for all thing spacemarine produced by GW/FW showing.
but in all seriosness, you seem to be only paying attention to some of us. i tink we are getting some buffs, but nerfs in other areas. the problem is that the stuff that looks like its getting nerfed was the only thing that was keeping us barely alive with an index.
so we will get more precise ideas of how orks will do after we get the codex and play it for ourselves. but we are not gonna let up on any negatives we find. sure someone might get discouraged, but thats mainly anybody that is convinced by public opinion, and aslo the person who thinks they can get easy wins with the new codex. anybody interested in the hoby side will just buy the models. those who have a true passion for getting into orks will get into it.
text removed.
Reds8n
fair enough Reds8n. i guess what i mean is that if your here just to complain about our "whining" then maybe you should find something more constructive to add to the conversation.
I am, I am advising to tone it down because it not only blocks people from wanting to play the game and ruins peoples enjoyment but it also limits your capabilities to think constructively. Your mind is focused on the Problem not the solution.
If the codex is bad, then how can it be used to compete? Is EVERY single game you play going to be against the Ravager list of doom? No,ok what about Mixed Knights? Maybe? Ok, HOW do we combat that?
So far Orks are capable and have stratagems let alone Kulturs that other armies DREAM they could of gotten. So, how do we capitalize on this?
Mix armies are going to be the way to go and Mass Shooting Bad Moons and Low shot but high damage Deffskulls will be important, what units mix well with these? What about Evil Sunz? Are they out of the running because they only give bonuses to move? No? Well what do you think can work then?
We know the problem. Lets find the solution.
As for your comment on FW, sure, FW does tend to sell slowly. Thats if this was solely FW and not 3 fantastic models that are dynamic and fun to play with an in depth stratagem far exceeding the lack of factions.
OH and its not a false equivalency. There is a thread on dakka asking if AT18 flopped. There are videos of people saying they wont buy it because its expensive. Then there is the fact I have to combats peoples worries over the game because they heard it was so expensive to get into (false). At best its anecdotal. So complaints DO affect how people react to a thing. Smart people research and if that research says that they will just not have fun because everything is horrible then guess what they wont do.
I am, I am advising to tone it down because it not only blocks people from wanting to play the game and ruins peoples enjoyment but it also limits your capabilities to think constructively. Your mind is focused on the Problem not the solution.
and your mind is focused on complaining about our "whining"
If the codex is bad, then how can it be used to compete? Is EVERY single game you play going to be against the Ravager list of doom? No,ok what about Mixed Knights? Maybe? Ok, HOW do we combat that?
we will see, but many players do fight against the most brocken armies.
So far Orks are capable and have stratagems let alone Kulturs that other armies DREAM they could of gotten. So, how do we capitalize on this?
oh yes. the issue with other peoeple wishing theyve have out stuff is that it is better...but that doesnt mean much when some of the best strats/etc are for some of the worst units in the game. it seems GW is just putting a screan up to block the fire, and everyone is like "man, that screan is more colorfull then ours!"
Mix armies are going to be the way to go and Mass Shooting Bad Moons and Low shot but high damage Deffskulls will be important, what units mix well with these? What about Evil Sunz? Are they out of the running because they only give bonuses to move? No? Well what do you think can work then?
We know the problem. Lets find the solution.
so when i asked for you to add somehting to the conversation your answer is "what do you think is good?" answering a question with a question isnt that great of a debate strategy. it just shows the other party has no clue about how to answer the original question. why dont you tell us some solutions/theories? what unit do you think is going to be the best of orks?
edit
OH and its not a false equivalency. There is a thread on dakka asking if AT18 flopped. There are videos of people saying they wont buy it because its expensive. Then there is the fact I have to combats peoples worries over the game because they heard it was so expensive to get into (false). At best its anecdotal. So complaints DO affect how people react to a thing. Smart people research and if that research says that they will just not have fun because everything is horrible then guess what they wont do.
ok, not trying to start a FW discussion here (unless it involves FW ork units), but my 2 cents on this is that the argument of "you dont have to get as much" doesn't hold much water. if FW focused on smaller games then why in the world do they have the biggest and most expensive titans in the game? anyone that gets into the hoby either through 40k or the heresy is going to eventually end up spending alot of money if they want to have a sizable collection, both systems allow for small play and large play (especialy GW sicne they just added killteam). its just that GW, expensive they might be, is still way cheaper then the gack prices FW has.that company can rot for such poor business acumen...sorry, my FW hater was showing again.
If the codex is bad, then how can it be used to compete? Is EVERY single game you play going to be against the Ravager list of doom? No,ok what about Mixed Knights? Maybe? Ok, HOW do we combat that?
Yes and Dark eldar have a lot to worry about with those traktor beam that going to tear their flies apart. That weapon is so damn good. Planes? Speeders? Riptide? Coldstar? Hammerhead? Raider and Ravager? Venoms? Wave Serpent? Piranhas? Vipers? Shield captain? Storm Raven? Repulsor? Even against the non flyers that auto hit is so damn reliable.
Against knight the army wasn't doing badly because you can swarm them. Now you have even more tools to work with.
If the codex is bad, then how can it be used to compete? Is EVERY single game you play going to be against the Ravager list of doom? No,ok what about Mixed Knights? Maybe? Ok, HOW do we combat that?
Yes and Dark eldar have a lot to worry about with those traktor beam that going to torn their flies apart. That weapon is so damn good. Planes? Speeders? Riptide? Coldstar? Hammerhead? Raider and Ravager? Venoms? Wave Serpent? Piranhas? Vipers? Shield captain? Even against the non flyers that auto hit is so damn reliable.
Against knight the army wasn't doing badly because you can swarm them. Now you have even more tools to work with.
thank for adding, i was woried i would only be talking to this other guy. yes traktorkanaon look realy great (even if it looks like they wont get clan traits, that a realy big bummer). i think lootas can work if you keep a grot screen infront of them for "grot shields". i am going to have to test that.
Here's a page by page review. There's a lot of glare but you can make stuff out, he also reads most things out loud and flips back and forth to check points for every unit.
For example, second video at 0:35 seconds you can see Mek Guns have <CLAN> so they can be included in normal detachments, but they also have GRETCHIN so they don't actually benefit from kultures. Same for Killa Kanz (22m50s)
Here's a page by page review. There's a lot of glare but you can make stuff out, he also reads most things out loud and flips back and forth to check points for every unit.
For example, second video at 0:35 seconds you can see Mek Guns have <CLAN> so they can be included in normal detachments, but they also have GRETCHIN so they don't actually benefit from kultures. Same for Killa Kanz (22m50s)
If the codex is bad, then how can it be used to compete? Is EVERY single game you play going to be against the Ravager list of doom? No,ok what about Mixed Knights? Maybe? Ok, HOW do we combat that?
Yes and Dark eldar have a lot to worry about with those traktor beam that going to torn their flies apart. That weapon is so damn good. Planes? Speeders? Riptide? Coldstar? Hammerhead? Raider and Ravager? Venoms? Wave Serpent? Piranhas? Vipers? Shield captain? Even against the non flyers that auto hit is so damn reliable.
Against knight the army wasn't doing badly because you can swarm them. Now you have even more tools to work with.
thank for adding, i was woried i would only be talking to this other guy. yes traktorkanaon look realy great (even if it looks like they wont get clan traits, that a realy big bummer).
i think lootas can work if you keep a grot screen infront of them for "grot shields". i am going to have to test that.
Lootas can work as long as there are other threats provided by the army.
Dakkajets, Gorkanauts, even Flash Gitz
Options at every turn each benefiting along with the Lootas to be Bad Moons (well except the Flash Gitz)
While something like a Dragsta speed mob with Deff Dredds... Wait...
Could you use Killa Kans as the Grot shield? Just a thought (and a horrible one when you are using a 40+ point model as a shield but it just came to me)
Anywho, Dragsta, Deff Dredd, maybe Deffkoptas, SAG and other high attack low amount of shots will want to be in the Deffskulls Detachment.
The Dredd likes that I would think for the save and rerolles.
Hmmm what else.... Oh and I am not checking efficiency. I am not that great for that type of math, I am thinking tactics and board states.
How are we feeling about this now, that the codex is actually starting to leak real information?
...we’ll wait until the codex releases...
...we’ll wait until the faq...
...we’ll wait until CA...
...we’ll wait until next edition...
My take is that the codex is entirely based about Tellyporta, Da Jump, and Evil Suns charging t1/t2; outside of that, the rest was largely nerfed - random units, characters, Boyz, and other; got nerfed for no reason. A few units got buffed; but...
I agree. Overall I think we are one of the few factions to get nerfed with a codex release. We lost a ton of options outside of indexes (that will never be updated), our key troop went up in points (something that happened with no other codex release) and some of units that didn't perform particularly well were also increased in cost.
I see a lot of people online, on here, on Facebook and on YouTube who don't play orks telling me how amazing the codex is but I don't think they have much idea what they're talking about. Outside of a very few, predictable and in my opinion, under powered gimmicks our codex has very little to offer. Our relics are almost universally trash. It seems all well and good getting a trikeboss into melee turn one until you realise he has no invulnerable and a 4+ save.
No doubt we have a few competitive options, but as with most GW releases they have focused on money instead of balance. This does not seem to have the options of Nids and its certainly not as competitive as Imperial Guard, Knights or DEldar. So it'll do little, if anything to shake up the meta.
Could you use Killa Kans as the Grot shield? Just a thought (and a horrible one when you are using a 40+ point model as a shield but it just came to me)
Why on earth you would WANT to? Wounds to expensive kans. Grots are better. The save is on the unit behind anyway so killa kan's better save is irrelevant. For the screen it's simple matter of "cheaper wound the better". Kans are pretty expensive wounds with some value for killing stuff so why you would trade those rather than 3 pts grots?
Could you use Killa Kans as the Grot shield? Just a thought (and a horrible one when you are using a 40+ point model as a shield but it just came to me)
Why on earth you would WANT to? Wounds to expensive kans. Grots are better. The save is on the unit behind anyway so killa kan's better save is irrelevant. For the screen it's simple matter of "cheaper wound the better". Kans are pretty expensive wounds with some value for killing stuff so why you would trade those rather than 3 pts grots?
also i think a model is removed when you make a 2plus for the strat. if im correct then a whole killakan is removed.
cool, just checking the video links posted earleir. orks boy units for every 10 boys you xcan take a tankbusta bomb (a 0pt upgrade). (ork boy kits do have that one boy with the big bomb in his hand).grenade strat be good for boyz, but if you have them msu in a truck at least one boy can throw that bomb.
I see a lot of people online, on here, on Facebook and on YouTube who don't play orks telling me how amazing the codex is but I don't think they have much idea what they're talking about. Outside of a very few, predictable and in my opinion, under powered gimmicks our codex has very little to offer. Our relics are almost universally trash. It seems all well and good getting a trikeboss into melee turn one until you realise he has no invulnerable and a 4+ save.
No doubt we have a few competitive options, but as with most GW releases they have focused on money instead of balance. This does not seem to have the options of Nids and its certainly not as competitive as Imperial Guard, Knights or DEldar. So it'll do little, if anything to shake up the meta.
You build your list around the wartrike or you don't take it. It's simple at that. If the whole army is charging T1 with him then hopefully he isn't tanky on top of that. You can also make him bad moons for invul 4+ and make him cybork for 5+ feel no pain. (one of the "trash" relic you know.)
Nids are the universaly adaptable army. So yes it's a bit normal than every other army can't compete with them in this domain.
Imperial Guard is like one of our nemesis since 4th edition. Nothing new here but still it's better than before with all that moving fast units. You are basically denying them more than one shooting phase. And on top of that we have now access to totally reliable anti tank with shockjump dragsta and traktor beams. You can also send them one gorkanaut or 3 deffdreads in the face TII.
Knights is like the most easy pick with orks. Good luck killing all my models with your castellan dude. In the same time i will be scoring objectives like their is no tomorrow and has long i won't be wiped good luck with the score.
DEldar is maybe the second easiest target. All your units fly? Great i have autohit weapons tha wreck fly units. You give me -1 to hit? Oh ok then here is my stratagem to shoot with no modifier and proc DDD on 5+. You want to Vect it? Yeah go for it i can have far more CP than you. You have great CC units? Would be a shame if i have even better ones. Wounding me always on 4+? Cool i am used to heavy bolter fire and such.
The one and only army i see we'll have some difficulty will forever be the Tau.
And remember with knights in the meta all army can't really focus on anti swarm units because they are so common now and: we don't have problem against knights if the list is build properly.
Psychocouac wrote: You build your list around the wartrike or you don't take it. It's simple at that. If the whole army is charging T1 with him then hopefully he isn't tanky on top of that. You can also make him bad moons for invul 4+ and make him cybork for 5+ feel no pain. (one of the "trash" relic you know.)
Oh gee let's trust for opponent allowing that AND rolling above averages if you plan to get whole army T1 charging. Lol.
Psychocouac wrote: You build your list around the wartrike or you don't take it. It's simple at that. If the whole army is charging T1 with him then hopefully he isn't tanky on top of that. You can also make him bad moons for invul 4+ and make him cybork for 5+ feel no pain. (one of the "trash" relic you know.)
Oh gee let's trust for opponent allowing that AND rolling above averages if you plan to get whole army T1 charging. Lol.
Because maybe clearing chaff with that many anti infantry weapons is hard?
Rolling over the average? Sure with like 21" range of move and then 12" of charge which can be rerolled one or two dice. And for the "slowest vehicles" remember there is a stratagem that allow to charge with 3D6 (rerollable) and cause mortal wounds on 2+.
What has flat 12" charge? But okay let's take 12" moving unit. Evil sun it's 12"+3+3d6=25.5. Looks like T1 charge right? 24" between deployment zones right?
WRONG!!!!!!!!
You do know there's no requirement to deploy to deployment line right? I don't even remember when I last faced army that didn't out h2h orks and didn't have like 28"+ minimum if I had anywhere near that could charge like 26". And of course 28" isn't furthest he can deploy. And that's on the most likely T1 deployment. If you deploy from short edges you can easily be like 38" away from the enemy...Good luck T1 charging that one.
But sure assume that you are always playing against idiot who deploys exactly 24.1" away from enemy. That was fashionable about 2 decades ago. After that most players have learned these things called "tactics".
And no you don't clear the chaff line off right away. BS5+ is not good and ork guns aren't that amazing. Sure you clear SOME but you know what? Some isn't enough. Good enemy has double line of chaff. You just ain't going to do that. But of course feel free living in utopia dream land where enemies bring crappy army lists and play like idiots
Psychocouac wrote: You build your list around the wartrike or you don't take it. It's simple at that. If the whole army is charging T1 with him then hopefully he isn't tanky on top of that. You can also make him bad moons for invul 4+ and make him cybork for 5+ feel no pain. (one of the "trash" relic you know.)
Oh gee let's trust for opponent allowing that AND rolling above averages if you plan to get whole army T1 charging. Lol.
Because maybe clearing chaff with that many anti infantry weapons is hard?
Rolling over the average? Sure with like 21" range of move and then 12" of charge which can be rerolled one or two dice.
On what sort of boards are you playing when you van charge your entire army into the enemy on any turn?
What happens when you go second? What happens when you roll average for your Ork shooting and fail to clear the chaff?
If you don't think Traitor Cannons will be errata'd ASAP you're dreaming. And you can't touch those eldar vehicles in cqc.
The 5+++ is probably my favourite relic but that can only be taken once. If you're building a list around the trike you'll need more than one. Which means the others are going to be weak.
tankbustas reroll to hit of 1s instead on failed hits, nerfed thats realy bad, and they cost the exact same. i guess GW doesn't want to sell the old models.
edit at least it sounded like he said "reroll to hit rolls of one"
geargutz wrote: tankbustas reroll to hit of 1s instead on failed hits, nerfed
thats realy bad, and they cost the exact same.
i guess GW doesn't want to sell the old models.
edit
at least it sounded like he said "reroll to hit rolls of one"
pretty sure he inserted that "of 1" by mistake, the page is blurry but there is no single-character word in there for the 1.
Reminder: if you decide to paint new buggies in sub-assemblies, check multiple times that it is physically possible to glue the parts together afterwards I made a mistake with Shokkjump Dragsta - I should have ignored step 1A (the first one!!!) and leave cabin rear wall separate. After having built the driver and his seat separately, it couldn't fit into cabin anymore.
After trial and error, here are some suggested sub-assemblies for Shokkjump Dragsta:
Rear section: Cabin rear wall, spoiler supports, rear axis (parts 46, 07, 09, 20, 09, 18, 19). Optionally spoiler itself, hanging gretchin crew, cabin support and rokkits (parts 51, 37-41, 55, 08,). You may want to trim the pegs on cabin rear wall (part 46) for better fit.
buff=komandoes, 1 in every5 can take 1 tankbusta bomb (0pts)
im just gonna add these as i listen to this guy. hes reading from the codex, its hard for me to see with the quality of video i have so i take evrything he says. its possible hes flubbing what he says.
edit also komandoes are 8pts now. now besides cp farming there is no reason to take boyz over komandoes lol.
I think the real asnwer to this two oage argument is somewhere in between.
Honestly, I've been doing some thinking and boyz are still very much powerful. I even figured out if I get rid of my painboy and replace him with the cheaper weirdboy I can run a snakebites detachment for free 6 up fnp anyway... so no idea what gw was thinking of there. The points increase honestly wasn't needed as it's not going to stop people from bringing boyz and evens out when they remove elites and replace them with the cheaper weirboyz who do all the same stuff as before but with powers. All the points increase did was hurt the casual players.
Our points on a few things are still high I agree... we should always have the cheaper units as we're very much a glass cannon army in 8th edition. We pay way too high for shooting.... we pay double for twinlinked weapons still (the only codex that does this).
However, I feel we can make this work. We won't win any imperial soup tournaments but if you're smart about mixing detachments I think we can pull through for another 6 years.
JimOnMars wrote: Question regarding the Mek guns...do other armies have artillery or tank units that cannot get chapter traits? How common is this?
Looks like they are being treated the same as auxiliary units elsewhere (AM and Tau codexes come to mind) where they do not get traits as a result. Also SM of all kinds only get chapter traits on their infantry, bikers and dreads so it is a pretty common thing overall.
nerf=stormboy full throttle just adds 6inches to advance, so no charging unless you have that warboss, and they still get the same mortal wounds from doing this (went from 8pt to 9pts)
edit
also scrapjet has the same spiked ram (on top of havving its drill) as the boom blasta
Most even got point drops along with their flashy new bonuses.
Yeah, how dare GW learn from past books (see 2843784984945 pages of whining on IG for one) and cost stuff appropriately now instead of making what was already undercosted unit OP then wait months for spring FAQ to fix it. Balance? What's that? If it was bad in a past book, it should be bad here too? Really now?
SM would love to eat 1 point increase on Tactical squad if Chapters now applied to vehicles and you got 3 Chapters worth of stuff in one trait but sure, whatever, let's complain 7 point model with 30 point Ogryn offensive output (or even better, IIRC Ogryns don't get as many attacks as Skarboyz or any traits...) now sucks, because it totally does
Most even got point drops along with their flashy new bonuses.
Yeah, how dare GW learn from past books (see 2843784984945 pages of whining on IG for one) and cost stuff appropriately now instead of making what was already undercosted unit OP then wait months for spring FAQ to fix it. Balance? What's that? If it was bad in a past book, it should be bad here too? Really now?
SM would love to eat 1 point increase on Tactical squad if Chapters now applied to vehicles and you got 3 Chapters worth of stuff in one trait but sure, whatever, let's complain 7 point model with 30 point Ogryn offensive output (or even better, IIRC Ogryns don't get as many attacks as Skarboyz or any traits...) now sucks, because it totally does
i remeber 7th edition. we got the 1st codex. it was very meh. then evryone was like "oh, this just shows that GW is toneing down the game, and the codexs in 7th are gonna be like this". fast forward to necrons and they get the nice new decurian and the codex creap is intense.
fast forward. we get a bunch of codexes in 8th and some are realy op. then ork codex is coming out and its turning out not to be apart of the codex creap, and might turn out supar. and evryone is like "oh, this is how its going to be for 8th with everything being toned down"
ive heard this before. and if CA comes around and there arnt sweeping nerfs for every other codex then us ork players have been shafted yet again. we shall see in CA, but ill expect the worst, becasue GW has done this before.
i remeber 7th edition. we got the 1st codex. it was very meh. then evryone was like "oh, this just shows that GW is toneing down the game, and the codexs in 7th are gonna be like this". fast forward to necrons and they get the nice new decurian and the codex creap is intense.
fast forward. we get a bunch of codexes in 8th and some are realy op. then ork codex is coming out and its turning out not to be apart of the codex creap, and might turn out supar. and evryone is like "oh, this is how its going to be for 8th with everything being toned down"
ive heard this before. and if CA comes around and there arnt sweeping nerfs for every other codex then us ork players have been shafted yet again. we shall see in CA, but ill expect the worst, becasue GW has done this before.
Yeah, I don't know how people can still keep claiming that everything will surely suddenly be perfect as soon as the next book comes out, and if not than with the next next book, and if not that, then surely with the next next next book, despite a 25 year track record of GW being unable to balance their way out of a wet paper bag.
"GW is learning from past mistakes" as we're on the 3rd to last codex with only 2 more to go... yes... I see now how this is a good thing for 40k. XD If only 40k players learnt from GW's past mistakes. We have 30+ years of evidence for what GW is capable of.
lolman1c wrote: "GW is learning from past mistakes" as we're on the 3rd to last codex with only 2 more to go... yes... I see now how this is a good thing for 40k. XD If only 40k players learnt from GW's past mistakes. We have 30+ years of evidence for what GW is capable of.
Haighus wrote: How good are tankbuster bomms, especially in comparison to stikkbomms? Is it much of a benefit to "suddenly" have them in Boyz and Kommando mobs?
Well you can destroy a tank with a tankbuster bomm
(the melta-bomb equivalent for orks), stikkbomms are just frag grenades.
I wanted the tankbuster bomms back for the Kommandos back for 3 codexes long.
Looks like I have at least this to rejoice with this one!
1 of five, better than nothing I think, will have to change a few backpaks...
lolman1c wrote: "GW is learning from past mistakes" as we're on the 3rd to last codex with only 2 more to go... yes... I see now how this is a good thing for 40k. XD If only 40k players learnt from GW's past mistakes. We have 30+ years of evidence for what GW is capable of.
So quit the hobby?
It's not just a game... It's a community. And I'm the ork player of the community, I would let them down...
but no seriously I hate it when people say "well then just quit" because that doesn't solve anything. The game would be dead if this happened. In addition, it is a community. If I left I would seriously lose like 70% of all my friends. This is like saying "if you don't like my negative comments then just leave the forums!"... why should you? You have some enjoyable aspect that keep you here but you also have some criticisms against people you don;t agree with. Should it mean you give it all up?
Seems the 140 points- doomsayers fears were unfounded after all.
Kind of wondering if I should give them Big Choppa's or Klaws.
but I'll live).
And the ork player had something like 9 times as many models 
I made a mistake with Shokkjump Dragsta - I should have ignored step 1A (the first one!!!) and leave cabin rear wall separate. After having built the driver and his seat separately, it couldn't fit into cabin anymore.
