More I reflect the more those dragstas seem busted. I was thinking about how good defskull dragsters were and forgot they also have a rocket launcha lol, and also they have DDD.
Very quick math has 9 of them averaging something like ~20 shock rifle hits after you factor the rerolls and DDD PLUS the 4 rocket hits. then remember you get to reroll ~9 wound rolls. Then ~9 damage rolls. I'm using lazy math because obviously the rerolls get allocated but they are wounding T7 vehicles ~18 times with the shock rifle and 15 times vs T8.... again not including the rockets.
fe40k wrote: They were just mentioning that from a competitive standpoint, his plan is to get into melee; the shooting is just a bonus.
I hope a decent (albeit if not the most competitive) list can be made from shooting units.
Your joking right? You can take 9 shock jump buggies for under 1K and make them def skulls. They hit on a 3 with a free reroll to hit, wound and damage roll EACH. This book is not difficult to power game at all from the leaked cultures and strats alone.
All that crying over imaginary spilled milk with boys being 7ppm, and now what the few were telling you, wait and see, turns out to be true and worse. Turns out you can easily start the game with a full battalion of blood axes with 4+ saves and maxed defskull buggies between them form an outrider, oh whats that? They will shoot the buggies? Right, so you not only have a 6++ but when it does finally go down, without degrading, for only 1cp one of those bricks of 30 blood ax boys becomes 3+ save...
This books traits are easily the most broken the game has seen. Some of these klans are getting 2-3 other factions traits all rolled into one and some even better.
Congrats - you have what amounts to 50 point lascannons, and 1 squad of boyz with some extra saves.
That leaves 370 points for HQs and grots (cp farms).
So, for 7cp (which is a lot itself), you get 90 boyz that are 4-5+ save, and one that might be a 3+; I forsee the meta potentially quickly shifting to units that counter cover saves (Imperial Fists, etc); since it not only counters Blood Axes, it also counters the 2cp 2nd turn cover strategem.
The thing is, this list is about 50/50 in terms of Infantry/Vehicles - when the meta is based on skew lists; and since it doesn't skew, I imagine it'll have an interesting time. It gives all of your opponents guns (anti-tank and anti-infantry) optimal targets all around.
Nevermind you ALSO want 3cp (I imagine that's what it is) to teleport 20pl of units.
10cp for that whole list, for three squads of boyz and some double price lascannons.
Don't bother arguing. I took a look at Red Corsair's other posts, and he's clearly got a thing against orks, "complainers" or both. The dragster is a nice model and situationally strong but not worth maxing out on. The reliable BS is a nice gimmick. Bikers I actually am excited about. Strong? Maybe. But the kultures open up options
I definitely have a thing against people that complain before they have all the facts. I actually love orks.
If you think BS 3+ is somehow a gimmick, that's revealing all on its own Especially when you ignore the 3 free rerolls they get each simply by painting the model blue.
Said "wing missiles" so I assumed two, but could just be 1 shot. The +1 to hit vehicles was the main thing I was looking for, for why you would want to take one.
JimOnMars wrote: Not watching atm....can you repeat shooting forever if you don't roll a 1?
I believe they mentioned it maxes out at shooting 3 times. Maybe I'm making that up. Don't know if that would be shooitng 3 times in total or three extra times
Said "wing missiles" so I assumed two, but could just be 1 shot. The +1 to hit vehicles was the main thing I was looking for, for why you would want to take one.
In Speed Freeks the wings missiles are basically just a rokkit launcha, not two
Billagio wrote: Ramming speed 2CP, 3D6 charge D3 MWs on a 2+ (?)
Do you know if the "selectable fleet" reroll applies to any of those three dice?
Well since it is a charge roll yes it can be rerolled with ere we go. However I'm not 100% how it will work with 3d6. GW said we can reroll one or both of the dice now so I don't see why you couldn't cherry pick with 3 dice.
Regarding 9 Shokkjump Dragstas:
DEATHSKULLS Dragstas
vs
T8, Sv3+
18*(0.666)=11.998hits
6.002*(0.666)=3.997 missed converted to hits
15.995 initial hits
15.995*(0.25)=3.998 6's on initial attack, DDD 3.998*(0.666)=2.663 hits
1.335*(0.666)=0.889 misses converted to hits
TOTAL HITS: 15.995+2.663+0.889= 19.547 final hits
If they advance, the total hits goes down quite a bit; not including rokkits and other weapons.
19.547*(0.5)=9.774 wounds
9.773*(0.5)=4.8865 misses converted to wounds
14.661*(0.833)=12.212 failed armor saves
12.212*(3.5)=42 average damage
Quite strong; and can spike high if you roll well on the d6.
The biggest problem is that they can't split fire very effectively, since it's one gun per model. Additionally, the math gets a little weird because in reality, it's possible for one vehicle to hit/wound twice, and another to miss/fail to wound twice - meaning the Deathskull re-roll has lessened benefit.
If Dragstas aren't Deathskull, their effectiveness goes down significantly.
the_scotsman wrote: Skrapjet sounds bloody awesome. amazing vehicle hunting unit, and if all of them are under 100 points - sweet.
If the size is at all comparable, that's what my grot megatank is going to be run as for sure.
I think they said it was 9 wounds as well, so a little bit hardier then
The scrap jet is really nice, I think the dragsta out shoots it but the ram of the scrap jet with that strat makes it super useful verse certain targets like custode shield captains.
18*(0.666)=11.998hits
6.002*(0.666)=3.997 missed converted to hits
15.995 initial hits
15.995*(0.25)=3.998 6's on initial attack, DDD 3.998*(0.666)=2.663 hits
1.335*(0.666)=0.889 misses converted to hits
TOTAL HITS: 15.995+2.663+0.889= 19.547 final hits
If they advance, the total hits goes down quite a bit; not including rokkits and other weapons.
19.547*(0.5)=9.774 wounds
9.773*(0.5)=4.8865 misses converted to wounds
14.661*(0.833)=12.212 failed armor saves
12.212*(3.5)=42 average damage
Quite strong; and can spike high if you roll well on the d6.
The biggest problem is that they can't split fire very effectively, since it's one gun per model. Additionally, the math gets a little weird because in reality, it's possible for one vehicle to hit/wound twice, and another to miss/fail to wound twice - meaning the Deathskull re-roll has lessened benefit.
Yea thats the same maths I was running, I am far to lazy to break down each reroll per car. That is insanely efficient though, all on a platform that doesn't degrade. I think splitfire is much less an issue when your looking at 9 individual units. Also the rerolls come in handy on the rockets too. For fun I was rolling dice at my desk and you get a lot of hits sometimes but overall you basically at least get 2 shock rifle hits per buggy.
Also I forgtot initially to factor in the additional mortal wounds on 6's to wound with the rifle which actually add up. The buggies average ~9 dmage each vs t7 so that mortal wound can be the finishing touch on 10 wound targets.
BTW this thing out performs a DL ravager for 30 points less. Same speed, lacks fly, doesn't degrade has a 6++ rather the 5++ but with the saved points you can get a KFF that covers several. Whats crazy is this is an ork unit not an eldar unit. In the right list it is very hard to focus on these with a mob barreling down your throat ready to beat you.
Boys up to 7ppm, as we know.
MA Big Mek same cost with KFF. Kustom Shoota down to 2 pts.
Painboy up 8 pts.
Wazbomb Blastajet up 13 pts.
Weirdboy same cost.
Bikes down 4ppm.
lolman1c wrote: So, the knight just killed half their army and it's only turn 2.
The streams always have lopsided poor games. I think the new army has lost almost every game on stream so far. They try to highlight lots of units rather then look for specific synergy.
Red Corsair wrote: BTW this thing out performs a DL ravager for 30 points less. Same speed, lacks fly, doesn't degrade has a 6++ rather the 5++ but with the saved points you can get a KFF that covers several. Whats crazy is this is an ork unit not an eldar unit. In the right list it is very hard to focus on these with a mob barreling down your throat ready to beat you.
So, are you considering the Ravager to get a 6+++ FNP as well, or do you only factor in the ork trait as a given? Also the fewer wounds?
lolman1c wrote: So, the knight just killed half their army and it's only turn 2.
The streams always have lopsided poor games. I think the new army has lost almost every game on stream so far. They try to highlight lots of units rather then look for specific synergy.
doesn't build any confidence.
Also why did things go up in points? The 1 thing we didn't need! I'm so confused....
one thing you have to realize about these streamed showcase games, a lot of the time its two people who have a super basic understanding of how the army works playing. Whether thats the case in this scenario, dunno, but knights are WAY easier to just dumb-play than orks.
Vineheart01 wrote: one thing you have to realize about these streamed showcase games, a lot of the time its two people who have a super basic understanding of how the army works playing. Whether thats the case in this scenario, dunno, but knights are WAY easier to just dumb-play than orks.
What worries me is that the guy who is supposed to be the lead dev on our codex seems to have no idea how Orks play or the datasheets of the different units. He's had to check multiple units multiple times to remind himself what they do....
Vineheart01 wrote: one thing you have to realize about these streamed showcase games, a lot of the time its two people who have a super basic understanding of how the army works playing. Whether thats the case in this scenario, dunno, but knights are WAY easier to just dumb-play than orks.
What worries me is that the guy who is supposed to be the lead dev on our codex seems to have no idea how Orks play or the datasheets of the different units. He's had to check multiple units multiple times to remind himself what they do....
...wait, he's the lead dev?
That said, it's not surprising - exact same thing happened during the Tau battle stream as well.
I don't think he is the lead dev, the codex was written by someone else like they said (they said the name so I'll figure it out later). But the guy did get profiles wrong several times. He also siad flashgitz got a buff by becoming BS4+ when they were already BS4+
Yeah, the orks are getting plastered. The stompa still looks underwhelming.Shame they put that model in the stream so we only see half an ork army really
Orks got dominated as expected, but to be fair they made some tactical mistakes, built a poor list and are playing against a knight armor which in my opinion was a stupid army to debut them against. It was not as bad as the Deathwatch debut. Now THAT sucked lol.
In the stream they're like "Ork boyz are basically useless". Then why did they go up a point?
He's like "would have been nice to see orks do better but ehhhh what you gunu doooooz?" Seriously? The guy was like "thr stompa can take 2 knights out!" And riht now he failed to take out 1!
The level of embarrassment of the streamers seems appropriate.
Some better list building probably would have gone a long way, but then again as a game designer some better game design and internal codex balance probably would have done the trick as well.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Well, all Ork Boyz now get Klan abilities. Some of them really rather good.
That. That doesn’t come free.
It does if you're any other army in the game.
Name me a codex that had it's base unit cost INCREASED, because it got Tactic equivalents.
Also, we're not rehashing this argument again - so, consider this; no other army's base infantry went up when it got a codex.Maybe other armies will go up because of CA2018 this year.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: Orks got dominated as expected, but to be fair they made some tactical mistakes, built a poor list and are playing against a knight armor which in my opinion was a stupid army to debut them against. It was not as bad as the Deathwatch debut. Now THAT sucked lol.
No, it was the perfect army to show, as that's what we are up against.
How many times have we watched Reece go up against Frankie, when Frankie took a very weak list against orks?
Red Corsair wrote: BTW this thing out performs a DL ravager for 30 points less. Same speed, lacks fly, doesn't degrade has a 6++ rather the 5++ but with the saved points you can get a KFF that covers several. Whats crazy is this is an ork unit not an eldar unit. In the right list it is very hard to focus on these with a mob barreling down your throat ready to beat you.
So, are you considering the Ravager to get a 6+++ FNP as well, or do you only factor in the ork trait as a given? Also the fewer wounds?
It's only 2 fewer wounds with no degradation. So thats a wash. 6+++ still doesnt make up for the point difference. They out damage a ravager at 30 points less, and keep in mind I am using a ravager which is WAY undercost.
Seriously, I know they're trying to show off unit but they should have picked a faction that isn't top of the tournaments right now... hell... could have fought necrons or something. XD
lolman1c wrote: So, the knight just killed half their army and it's only turn 2.
The streams always have lopsided poor games. I think the new army has lost almost every game on stream so far. They try to highlight lots of units rather then look for specific synergy.
doesn't build any confidence.
Also why did things go up in points? The 1 thing we didn't need! I'm so confused....
Just wait a month and you'll realize if anything orks are going to be too cheap.
So they hit more often then? Because why would a bike not be rushing up the table to get the enemy in close range? Don't they use Combi weapons? So Meltas and the like can be thrown in? Massive flexibility.
Massive flexibility is a massive overstatement for a 17 point weapon or a 13 point plasma on a unit that can get pounded by a dissie and has few options for morale mitigation.
With worse BS. Worse weapons.
That still hit on average pretty close. Do you realize the Dakkagun is S5?
They cost points or a trait.
Traits are free and this option is not available to CSM.
I assume you mean +1 Advance and +1 Charge? So? They don't want to be in combat.
Uuuhhhh 3 attacks?
Great is relative. Costs trait or points.
Traits are free and this option is not available to CSM.
Costs trait. They don't want to be in melee.
Traits are free and this option is not available to CSM. They have 3 friggin attacks each.
That costs 120 points....
That is an absolute combat monster.
Do you want to place a friendly bet to see if Warbikers suddenly start to dominate the Ork tournament meta?
That all really depends if people find something else marginally better than them or prefer the style of other units. For anyone wanting to build a list that gets in your face with a lot of wounds and saves teleports for other stuff bikes and stormboyz are viable.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Well, all Ork Boyz now get Klan abilities. Some of them really rather good.
That. That doesn’t come free.
It does if you're any other army in the game.
Name me a codex that had it's base unit cost INCREASED, because it got Tactic equivalents.
Also, we're not rehashing this argument again - so, consider this; no other army's base infantry went up when it got a codex.Maybe other armies will go up because of CA2018 this year.
lolman1c wrote: So, the knight just killed half their army and it's only turn 2.
The streams always have lopsided poor games. I think the new army has lost almost every game on stream so far. They try to highlight lots of units rather then look for specific synergy.
doesn't build any confidence.
Also why did things go up in points? The 1 thing we didn't need! I'm so confused....
Just wait a month and you'll realize if anything orks are going to be too cheap.
fe40k wrote: I'm glad they used the Stompa - everyone gets to see that it's still 940 points of overcosted scrap.
There's no hiding behind Reece, or any other comments, this time around.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
lolman1c wrote: In the stream they're like "Ork boyz are basically useless". Then why did they go up a point?
Who said this?
That dev bloke. He's definitely a rules guy. Perhaps I misheard 'lead'.
From this game the buggies have all been incredibly underwhelming too. Including the SJD and Trike.
The Trike is a force multiplication tool but apart from Zhadsnark and a Deffrolla Battlewagon what vehicles are we wanting to charge in? The buggies are better at shooting....
lord_blackfang wrote: Well, we saw Orks tabled in 3 turns, killing nothing in return. Yay, good game, running out to buy the codex and 12 Squigbuggies right now.
He killed an armiger, so I wouldn't say nothing.
But yeah, knights are bs, news at 11.
Also why did things go up in points? The 1 thing we didn't need! I'm so confused....
Do we know if there were any changes to the units? That could potentially justify raising the points.
Like maybe the Blastajet now gets +1 to all its weapons and not just the Smasha gun.
Maybe the Painboy has an ability aside from Dok's Tools that buffs the Snakebites and Cyborks FNP? (I really hope this is the case.)
It's hard to know without seeing the codex, but it's not implausible that bad units might have been changed enough to warrant a points increase.
the snakebites trait was very clear that it is redundant with any other post-save ability, including super cybork and ramshackle.
I think he means that perhaps painboyz could now give 6+ FNP to those who don't have an existing one, and if they have an existing one (such as from the Snakebites' trait) then it could add +1 to it instead (or something equivalent).
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Well, all Ork Boyz now get Klan abilities. Some of them really rather good.
That. That doesn’t come free.
It does if you're any other army in the game.
Name me a codex that had it's base unit cost INCREASED, because it got Tactic equivalents.
Also, we're not rehashing this argument again - so, consider this; no other army's base infantry went up when it got a codex.Maybe other armies will go up because of CA2018 this year.
Let's all leave it at that.
Marines did in 7th Ed.
Right - we're playing 7th edition.
Because it triggered me: Our army is design wise, a whole edition behind? Is that what you're claiming?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Regarding the post battle interview - the Ork player is defeated, on the table, and in spirit.
He knew he took a bad list, and had to represent the faction - and he took the battle personally too, which is even worse for him. =(
Also why did things go up in points? The 1 thing we didn't need! I'm so confused....
Do we know if there were any changes to the units? That could potentially justify raising the points.
Like maybe the Blastajet now gets +1 to all its weapons and not just the Smasha gun.
Maybe the Painboy has an ability aside from Dok's Tools that buffs the Snakebites and Cyborks FNP? (I really hope this is the case.)
It's hard to know without seeing the codex, but it's not implausible that bad units might have been changed enough to warrant a points increase.
the snakebites trait was very clear that it is redundant with any other post-save ability, including super cybork and ramshackle.
I think he means that perhaps painboyz could now give 6+ FNP to those who don't have an existing one, and if they have an existing one (such as from the Snakebites' trait) then it could add +1 to it instead.
They could, as part of a wish list, but they already showed the clan trait and it says on their community page that it's redundant.
lord_blackfang wrote: Well, we saw Orks tabled in 3 turns, killing nothing in return. Yay, good game, running out to buy the codex and 12 Squigbuggies right now.
Just as it should be
Join the Knight train or shut up. No, no I mean AND shut up.
- GW
Jokes aside, they should really stop streaming these games. They don't do anything but harm.
lolman1c wrote: So, the knight just killed half their army and it's only turn 2.
The streams always have lopsided poor games. I think the new army has lost almost every game on stream so far. They try to highlight lots of units rather then look for specific synergy.
doesn't build any confidence.
Also why did things go up in points? The 1 thing we didn't need! I'm so confused....
Just wait a month and you'll realize if anything orks are going to be too cheap.
How? Do you expect them to get a price cut?
No I expect actually good players to pick up orks and demonstrate how strong they are.
Also why did things go up in points? The 1 thing we didn't need! I'm so confused....
Do we know if there were any changes to the units? That could potentially justify raising the points.
Like maybe the Blastajet now gets +1 to all its weapons and not just the Smasha gun.
Maybe the Painboy has an ability aside from Dok's Tools that buffs the Snakebites and Cyborks FNP? (I really hope this is the case.)
It's hard to know without seeing the codex, but it's not implausible that bad units might have been changed enough to warrant a points increase.
the snakebites trait was very clear that it is redundant with any other post-save ability, including super cybork and ramshackle.
Yes, but what I was trying to say wasn't that they might provide a second 6+++ but rather the Painboy might have something on its data sheet that says it can add +1 to the Snakebite/Cybork FNP rolls (or something along those lines).
Of course I have zero evidence they made a change like that, and I have no idea if they did, but I was just trying to give an example of how a unit that wasn't very good might have changed in a way to justify increasing it's cost. Sorry if I wasn't very clear.
Bad Moonz Stratagem: "Showin' Off"
Shoot a second time
I wonder if those buggy prices are with the weapons, or without - my guess is that's pre-wargear; but, given that it lines up with the known 100 buggy, maybe they're just flat prices.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: Orks got dominated as expected, but to be fair they made some tactical mistakes, built a poor list and are playing against a knight armor which in my opinion was a stupid army to debut them against. It was not as bad as the Deathwatch debut. Now THAT sucked lol.
Daedalus81 wrote: Massive flexibility is a massive overstatement for a 17 point weapon or a 13 point plasma on a unit that can get pounded by a dissie and has few options for morale mitigation.
Ah but it's better right? So you're previous point was misleading? Also bikes are fast, so can get where they need to be so that they can drop whatever flexible weapons they've chosen.
Aren't they point-for-point more durable than the much loved SJD?
That still hit on average pretty close. Do you realize the Dakkagun is S5?
Yea mate, I run 9 bikes min every game. I know their strengths and weaknesses probably better than most. S5 is much less useful than you think, particularly when it has no AP....
Traits are free and this option is not available to CSM.
Traits aren't free for Boys, apparently. Why are you comparing a sub-optimal unit with another to try and claim that one is good? No one is taking CSM bikes. No one.
Uuuhhhh 3 attacks?
Uuuhhhh at Str 4 with no AP? For 24 pts a model. Slugga Boys have the same number of attacks but for 7ppm....they're just as fast with Da Jump. You're showing your lack of experience with them here.
Traits are free and this option is not available to CSM.
CSM have other options such as alliances to a particular god....
Traits are free and this option is not available to CSM. They have 3 friggin attacks each.
See above. Play with bikes more.
That is an absolute combat monster.
You must have missed the stream. He's worse than a Daemon Prince isn't he?
That all really depends if people find something else marginally better than them or prefer the style of other units. For anyone wanting to build a list that gets in your face with a lot of wounds and saves teleports for other stuff bikes and stormboyz are viable.
I disagree on bikes but Stormboyz perhaps. Bikes can't exactly scale buildings to deal with hiding scouts etc. Teleports and Da Jump will seemingly always be superior. They haven't done enough to address the glaring weaknesses of bikes which is a shame.
TedNugent wrote: Guys, guys, remember that Space Marines pay 1 ppm for Ravenguard chapter tactics?
Tibs Ironblood wrote: Orks got dominated as expected, but to be fair they made some tactical mistakes, built a poor list and are playing against a knight armor which in my opinion was a stupid army to debut them against. It was not as bad as the Deathwatch debut. Now THAT sucked lol.
TRASH TIER CODEX CONFIRMED!
Yup they lost a battle on stream. Time to listen to sad music and write emo poetry.
I'm not necessarily saying this tells us the codex is bad but that was just embarrassing... you could see it on their faces... Did not show off the codex at all! They should have just done imperial guard or something... oh gawd... I just feel depressed after that...
I wonder if they are just going to nerf IK into the ground with the next CA and priced the stompa after the new guidelines. Making it terrible for now..
But then, why even include it in the stream? I really thought we'd get to see some more of the sweet buggies.. Oh well, still plenty of new info from the stream
From someone who knows, the stratagems this book has, combined with great cheap units makes for a very powerful book. I don't know that it is as meta-changing as knights, but I think a tournament Ork list just crushes knights.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Tellyporta strategy in the new Codex allows players to drop 90 Choppa Boys within 9 inches of their opponent turn 2 for 3 CP.
techsoldaten wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Tellyporta strategy in the new Codex allows players to drop 90 Choppa Boys within 9 inches of their opponent turn 2 for 3 CP.
And this is not Codex Creep.
Rumor is 20pl worth of models.
20boyz is 9 PL, and 30boyz is 13pl.
So, at best, you're getting 20+20boyz, plus a random 2pl model.
techsoldaten wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Tellyporta strategy in the new Codex allows players to drop 90 Choppa Boys within 9 inches of their opponent turn 2 for 3 CP.
Yeah, even based on information provided this book looks extremely solid for tournament play. Some of the things you guys are freaking out about are adorable. With the bump in CP battalions give now ork boyz are going to be sick let alone other items.
lolman1c wrote: I'm not necessarily saying this tells us the codex is bad but that was just embarrassing... you could see it on their faces... Did not show off the codex at all! They should have just done imperial guard or something... oh gawd... I just feel depressed after that...
<Shrug>
The quality of lists and play on the table is terrible on the GW stream. Now for knights which are currently so point and click that a random noob off the street could win with them that is not a big problem. For any normal codex that takes a modicum of skill to play well it is clearly too much to expect.
I find it really funny half the people here think this is going to be a solid/OP codex and the other half think its going to be trash. Complete opposite ends of the spectrum
Hulksmash wrote: Yeah, even based on information provided this book looks extremely solid for tournament play. Some of the things you guys are freaking out about are adorable. With the bump in CP battalions give now ork boyz are going to be sick let alone other items.
Yea tell me about it. Average ork list should have minimum of 14 CP, but easily more. The traits and strats are all gross.
Hulksmash wrote: Yeah, even based on information provided this book looks extremely solid for tournament play. Some of the things you guys are freaking out about are adorable. With the bump in CP battalions give now ork boyz are going to be sick let alone other items.
We shall see, but watching the GW design team get embarrassed in a show game they just streamed against Imperial knights ("orks never lose. They just die. Every single one of them...") was not super encouraging, bro.
Seeing the basic troop choice go up 17% doesn't encourage me.
It's a matter of interlocking all the new moving parts - strategems, clan traits and what unit synergies are available. All things we can't do right now. The one demo game we've seen from GW was a humiliating loss for the new codex orks.
Message to the GW employees who check these forums.
I have a few spare hours each week (this seems like it'd be more than enough time to improve things for you...) and would happily help you avoid dumpster fire quality army previews like the 'battle' we just witnessed.
Who the hell thought putting THAT Ork list up against Knights was a good idea?
Eating up just shy of 900pts with a Stompa that did nothing but act like a sponge for a couple turns. How the hell has that made it in to the Codex virtually unchanged. It's been known for months how massively over-costed it is. Just about every unbiased player could quickly run some numbers, play a couple of match up scenarios and you'd probably end up with a price in the 500-600pt range. Show case more of the new cool stuff! Make people HYPED to buy some Orks and play some games. Give them a fighting chance by playing a more even match up.
Did the guys playing have any practice games? This is the most basic professional step when giving a presentation, or performing any skill live. You practice. Like A LOT. You get your game nailed down tight. This stream was the opposite with numerous rules/abilities getting confused or muddled up etc.
Do you guys have a constructive post game debriefing? Is there someone who ISN'T afraid to upset people when asking them how things went, why they chose a specific list and match up? If not you should implement it to prevent such terrible pre-launch events from happening again. I thought 'new GW' was all about the PR so for these bad preview battles to continue seems bizarre.
rvd1ofakind wrote: I mean, if the Stompa can shoot twice it's preeeeeeeeeeeeetty good.
Even if it can't it's not bad. The main issue it has is your putting all your eggs in one basket. That's not an ork specific issue though. If you make it too cheap you just put another castellan in the meta which is TERRIBLE. Especially considering it's harder to fix with composition since orks come with their own chaf and CP batteries. Personally I wish they moved those 600+ point units out of matched play. They can be as good as they want there.
Boys up to 7ppm, as we know.
MA Big Mek same cost with KFF. Kustom Shoota down to 2 pts.
Painboy up 8 pts.
Wazbomb Blastajet up 13 pts.
Weirdboy same cost.
Bikes down 4ppm.
What sort of squig-brained madboy thought the wazbomb blastajet was undercosted.
Even if people find some stupid gak combo that can obliterate tournaments that doesn't make it a good Codex, or a strong Codex. A Codex is more than one army list.
What worries me is that the guy who is supposed to be the lead dev on our codex seems to have no idea how Orks play or the datasheets of the different units. He's had to check multiple units multiple times to remind himself what they do....
Based on the 7th ed ork codex, that honestly sounds like business as usual.
Boys up to 7ppm, as we know.
MA Big Mek same cost with KFF. Kustom Shoota down to 2 pts.
Painboy up 8 pts.
Wazbomb Blastajet up 13 pts.
Weirdboy same cost.
Bikes down 4ppm.
What sort of squig-brained madboy thought the wazbomb blastajet was undercosted.
Think there was something about KFF being changed to only having to touch a unit, not totally cover it. So that is probably the explanation. Makes the KFF really strong.
Hulksmash wrote: Yeah, even based on information provided this book looks extremely solid for tournament play. Some of the things you guys are freaking out about are adorable. With the bump in CP battalions give now ork boyz are going to be sick let alone other items.
We shall see, but watching the GW design team get embarrassed in a show game they just streamed against Imperial knights ("orks never lose. They just die. Every single one of them...") was not super encouraging, bro.
Seeing the basic troop choice go up 17% doesn't encourage me.
It's a matter of interlocking all the new moving parts - strategems, clan traits and what unit synergies are available. All things we can't do right now. The one demo game we've seen from GW was a humiliating loss for the new codex orks.
Your right, it seems poor for marketing but nearly every previewed codex has been crushed on stream. At this point I think it might be intentional to squash hysteria over creep. But that would be giving them too much credit. I think they just want to show off some of everything.
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lord_blackfang wrote: Even if people find some stupid gak combo that can obliterate tournaments that doesn't make it a good Codex, or a strong Codex. A Codex is more than one army list.
I can think of several builds off the top of my head though.
lord_blackfang wrote: Even if people find some stupid gak combo that can obliterate tournaments that doesn't make it a good Codex, or a strong Codex. A Codex is more than one army list.
I think there are going to be NUMEROUS synergies, unit + stratagem combinations - so fingers crossed it is a strong Codex as you say. With a lot more than just 1 'OP' combo. Am just upset that GW still absolutely up stuff that is really primary school basic like the Stompa points and the quality of that preview game. It should be a showcase of Orky awesomeness. Not 'lets table them with knights in 3 turns'
Billagio wrote: I find it really funny half the people here think this is going to be a solid/OP codex and the other half think its going to be trash. Complete opposite ends of the spectrum
Some people want to be OP so others complain about them, and some want to be trash tier so they can complain themselves. Worst case scenario is mid tier then everybody is unhappy.
From what little i've been following, this seems like quite a good book. There is a lot of synergy and effective tricks here. The stratagems are good and Kulturs are excellent.
lolman1c wrote: I'm not necessarily saying this tells us the codex is bad but that was just embarrassing... you could see it on their faces... Did not show off the codex at all! They should have just done imperial guard or something... oh gawd... I just feel depressed after that...
<Shrug>
The quality of lists and play on the table is terrible on the GW stream. Now for knights which are currently so point and click that a random noob off the street could win with them that is not a big problem. For any normal codex that takes a modicum of skill to play well it is clearly too much to expect.
Whatever. Means nothing.
Ha, I think they should just have the Orks in 3 or 5 games back to back against a variety of armies just to see what happens. Better still the Orks in one game every day for ever.
What worries me is that the guy who is supposed to be the lead dev on our codex seems to have no idea how Orks play or the datasheets of the different units. He's had to check multiple units multiple times to remind himself what they do....
Based on the 7th ed ork codex, that honestly sounds like business as usual.
Or more likely the player has filled his head up with his new project and hasn't looked at the Orks recently enough to remember off the top of his head.
I'd love to try and take a orkanaut/stompa list v. knights, I think it'd be fun and fluffy, but they're SO MORK-DAMNED BAD. Even now, it would seem.
Hell, I played a game of 2500 pts combined marines and knights v. 4300 points of stompas about a month ago. Got completely creamed. Would have only taken down only one knight the whole game except my very last stompa exploded and killed his last 2.
It would have been nice if they had fixed, you know, something.
Honestly they probably should have had orks facing orks. It's both funny/fluffy and it would give them 4000 points to showcase with, and every turn would be an active and defensive ork turn. It's also harder for folks to go the other way and worry about creep since it's a mirror match.
Some takeaways I have not seen brought up here directly. The Bad moons stratagem is an INFANTRY unit so no stompa. In addition I am 99% sure I heard them say the blood axe trait is counts as in cover when 18 inches away (It may have been 12, but he for sure mentioned distance away). I can't go back and watch that part again to confirm as I am not subscribed to them.
If this is true that is a massive hit to blood axes and IMO puts them below the evil sunz as the T1 choice. If KFFs really do work per unit and can daisy chain + be 18 inches with a stratagem is MASSIVE. Absolutely insanely good value and required in every single list.
KMKs and the dragsta + weirdboy HQs will be auto includes for competitive orks if the points stay the same.
Hulksmash wrote: Yeah, even based on information provided this book looks extremely solid for tournament play. Some of the things you guys are freaking out about are adorable. With the bump in CP battalions give now ork boyz are going to be sick let alone other items.
We shall see, but watching the GW design team get embarrassed in a show game they just streamed against Imperial knights ("orks never lose. They just die. Every single one of them...") was not super encouraging, bro.
Seeing the basic troop choice go up 17% doesn't encourage me.
It's a matter of interlocking all the new moving parts - strategems, clan traits and what unit synergies are available. All things we can't do right now. The one demo game we've seen from GW was a humiliating loss for the new codex orks.
Not you're bro buddy
Having met parts of the GW design team and seen them play games at the Adepticon Team Tournament I can tell you that I would take zero away from any game they play. They tried something and it didn't work but I wouldn't be discouraged by it. They just wanted to play with the big model they had.
17% increase if they didn't change anything would be fine. However they bumped the KFF to units instead of models. The Kultures are insane and generally two of any other armies abilities. You're to busy looking at the new stuff which is decent but you're ignoring the actual boosts infantry.
See above for taking your direction from the design team for competitive play. Just don't and take the information provided and start toying with stuff instead of relying on them to spoon feed you the nasty stuff you can do.
Kap'n Krump wrote: I'd love to try and take a orkanaut/stompa list v. knights, I think it'd be fun and fluffy, but they're SO MORK-DAMNED BAD. Even now, it would seem.
Hell, I played a game of 2500 combined marines and knights v. 4300 points of stompas about a month ago. Got completely creamed. Would have only taken down only one knight the whole game except my very last stompa exploded and killed his last 2.
It would have been nice if they had fixed, you know, something.
I still think 600pt+ titans should be kept out from matched play. The line is waffer thin on their balance which is why knights are such an issue now. I think Orkanaughts are solid, just need to be in the right list. A teliported naught from evil sunz is terrying
I really don't think the orkanauts are bad in the new codex. He was charged and creamed by a knight with the paragon gauntlet. S16 AP-4 D8 with no penalty to hit is a darned good relic, nothing except for crazy invuln saves is going to stand up to that.
PiñaColada wrote: I really don't think the orkanauts are bad in the new codex. He was charged and creamed by a knight with the paragon gauntlet. S16 AP-4 D8 with no penalty to hit is a darned good relic, nothing except for crazy invuln saves is going to stand up to that.
Wait, that killed him and people are claiming he is bad!?
Billagio wrote: I find it really funny half the people here think this is going to be a solid/OP codex and the other half think its going to be trash. Complete opposite ends of the spectrum
to be fair i think a good number of us expect the codex to be midtear. we are going to have 1 or 2 builds that would be considered competition, and everything else is going to be either "meh" or "trashfire".
now whether the competitive builds are going to be "super op" or "barley passable" is till up for debate.
PiñaColada wrote: I really don't think the orkanauts are bad in the new codex. He was charged and creamed by a knight with the paragon gauntlet. S16 AP-4 D8 with no penalty to hit is a darned good relic, nothing except for crazy invuln saves is going to stand up to that.
Wait, that killed him and people are claiming he is bad!?
To be fair, it killed him in CC when he had 6 wounds left. The rest was done from shooting but this game really didn't tell us much on the ork side of things other than that the stompa is nowhere near as points efficient as a knight.
Billagio wrote: I find it really funny half the people here think this is going to be a solid/OP codex and the other half think its going to be trash. Complete opposite ends of the spectrum
to be fair i think a good number of us expect the codex to be midtear. we are going to have 1 or 2 builds that would be considered competition, and everything else is going to be either "meh" or "trashfire".
now whether the competitive builds are going to be "super op" or "barley passable" is till up for debate.
8th requires only a few things.
Durable chaf.
Mobility/board control
Early threats
This release easily has all three of those things. The kulturs still have me scratching my head. The defskulls got Iron hands +1, Salamanders +1, and the old school gladius obsec which everyone is ignoring like it isn't absurdly good just because of the other two parts. That's insane. Who cares if boyz went up a point when you gained 3 chapter traits on top of their 4 special rules
Anyone know if the orkanaut melee (or stompa, for that matter) damage went up? Because both need to.
I mean, I know the paragon gauntlet is a broken relic, and maybe not the best level to compare our stuff to, but hell. When a gallant that's a third the cost of a stompa hits more often and does more damage than a chain-choppa the size of a leman russ ........something's very, very wrong.
pretty much all knights are easily 150pts undercosted.
I agree that the titanic crap should stay out of matched play. Beating a knight isnt hard...if you tailor for it. Problem is if you tailor for facing a handful of super big things and face a swarm....yeh ded brah.
I miss the days where fielding the giant models was meant for large/narrative games, not matched play.
Yeah it's sad that knights exist the way they do in the game because anything even close to their close is going to be compared to them and fall short. Knights are just plain undercosted in addition to having an entire codex dedicated to them meaning more options are tailor made for them plus they are under the giant umbrella of the IMPERIUM keyword. Nothing can really stand up to them in this regard. Personally I politely decline games that feature knights because they are just anti-fun to play against and invalidate every other choice from every other army that tries to rival them.
I think that its going to be a solid codex. Some things went up in points which sucks, but I suspect when CA2018 hits the rest of the strong armies will get points increases as well, so it will even out and we look even better. Just speculation though
Tibs Ironblood wrote: Yeah it's sad that knights exist the way they do in the game because anything even close to their close is going to be compared to them and fall short. Knights are just plain undercosted in addition to having an entire codex dedicated to them meaning more options are tailor made for them plus they are under the giant umbrella of the IMPERIUM keyword. Nothing can really stand up to them in this regard. Personally I politely decline games that feature knights because they are just anti-fun to play against and invalidate every other choice from every other army that tries to rival them.
Yeah, I played one guy's triple knight list (2x gallants, one castellan) about 4 times with my orks and thousand boyz, and the last time I got compltely crushed I politely told him 'this is the last time I play this list.' No hard feelings, but it's just not fun to play against an knight army that makes 30" charges with 3+ invluns, supported by volcano cannons and hellblasters. Just.......I'm good.
I mean.........one knight, maybe 2 is fine, but triple+ is just too much.
Ah but it's better right? So you're previous point was misleading? Also bikes are fast, so can get where they need to be so that they can drop whatever flexible weapons they've chosen.
Better at doing what thing? Getting blown away by a dissie while costing more points for the privilege?
Aren't they point-for-point more durable than the much loved SJD?
Dunno - when I see the datasheets and points in the flesh i'll analyze it.
S5 is much less useful than you think, particularly when it has no AP....
More useful than a bolter...
Traits aren't free for Boys, apparently. Why are you comparing a sub-optimal unit with another to try and claim that one is good? No one is taking CSM bikes. No one.
I'm comping like for like. Nobody runs bikes, because of D2 weapons. My point is Orks now have the most flexible bikes available and are able to mitigate that problem.
Uuuhhhh at Str 4 with no AP? For 24 pts a model. Slugga Boys have the same number of attacks but for 7ppm....they're just as fast with Da Jump. You're showing your lack of experience with them here.
Bikes are T5 4+ W2. Boyz are T4 6+. Of course they're going to have less attacks. Bikes are more durable and don't need Da Jump to get where they need to be, which means you can Da Jump a banner or something else or even boyz along with them while the bikes clam up the things boyz worry about. And...they have as much shooting as 30 shoota boyz.
Oh you have dark reapers? It would be a shame if I put 60 shots with a 32" effective range that hit on 5s ignoring the hit penalty and exploding for 6 dead and then charged the screen in front of me.
CSM have other options such as alliances to a particular god....
Yes, if you only want to ever run Khorne and they still won't be (3+)4+/5++/6+++ with DDD, reroll charges, and assault and charge.
You must have missed the stream. He's worse than a Daemon Prince isn't he?
He fluffed all his shooting and failed his 2+ on MW on the charge. Then got 4 damage through in total. An unbuffed DP in the same scenario averages 4.7 (boss average is 4.9).
He wouldn't have survived against a warglaive much better, either.
Honestly the guy at the end said it was his first time playing Orks. I think he saw the giant Stompa and Gorkanaut and went "That's cool" and decided to play it without really knowing the Codex.
Which to be fair, isn't great on the part of GW but it is what it is.
I do not play Orks but I am still excited about them and the codex and I will finally be restarting an Ork army with this Codex. They were my original army when I started playing back when 3rd edition dropped. Everything I have seen has me excited and feels very Orky and that's how my group plays (minus the one guy we know who is THAT GUY). I was just hoping to hear some tidbits from the stream and that's what I got.
As a Space Wolves player, I learned to really take the streams with a truckload of salt. It did not reflect our Codex very well and I was worried until I got my hands on it. I am happy with it and I am sure I will be happy with this Ork codex and the new adventure I am about to strike out on.
"My list started with a Stompa, a Gorkanaut, and a Morkanaut, but then I realized that was 120pl"
He also said that he was a new ork player, and wanted to make a Stompa list; and then afterwards, he said he still wanted to make a Stompa list work - so; can't blame it too much, the Stompa is overpriced scrap; and he was battling against Knights...
techsoldaten wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Tellyporta strategy in the new Codex allows players to drop 90 Choppa Boys within 9 inches of their opponent turn 2 for 3 CP.
And this is not Codex Creep.
Rumor is 20pl worth of models.
20boyz is 9 PL, and 30boyz is 13pl.
So, at best, you're getting 20+20boyz, plus a random 2pl model.
It says a unit though, so you would have to invest 6 CP to do it on 3 30 man units.
All we can do is be honest about whether what we are hearing is good or bad in and of itself.
For example the KFF rumor is just going to bring back 5th ed KFF being mandatory. 7 point boys negative, and so on.
But we legitimately can't know how all of that comes together until codex is in hand and we have a good SOLID read through plus games played.
Good or bad.
techsoldaten wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Tellyporta strategy in the new Codex allows players to drop 90 Choppa Boys within 9 inches of their opponent turn 2 for 3 CP.
And this is not Codex Creep.
Rumor is 20pl worth of models.
20boyz is 9 PL, and 30boyz is 13pl.
So, at best, you're getting 20+20boyz, plus a random 2pl model.
It says a unit though, so you would have to invest 6 CP to do it on 3 30 man units.
Did we get the exact wording? If so, can you post it?
Because 3PL to deepstrike a unit is not in-line with other codecii standards - I suppose the fact it can apply to (any?) unit gives it options, but...
Orks are going to be very CP limited - Grot farmz it is.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: Yeah it's sad that knights exist the way they do in the game because anything even close to their close is going to be compared to them and fall short. Knights are just plain undercosted in addition to having an entire codex dedicated to them meaning more options are tailor made for them plus they are under the giant umbrella of the IMPERIUM keyword. Nothing can really stand up to them in this regard. Personally I politely decline games that feature knights because they are just anti-fun to play against and invalidate every other choice from every other army that tries to rival them.
They could fix this in CA by taking a page from the horus heresy and saying LoW cannot be more than 25% of the points in your 2K army. As far as I'm concerned, LoW don't belong in 2K games at all, but this would still make room for those who want them.
They could fix this in CA by taking a page from the horus heresy and saying LoW cannot be more than 25% of the points in your 2K army. As far as I'm concerned, LoW don't belong in 2K games at all, but this would still make room for those who want them.
I agree entirely, but there's a full Knight codex out there, GW will never axe them as an army.
All we can do is be honest about whether what we are hearing is good or bad in and of itself.
For example the KFF rumor is just going to bring back 5th ed KFF being mandatory. 7 point boys negative, and so on.
But we legitimately can't know how all of that comes together until codex is in hand and we have a good SOLID read through plus games played.
Good or bad.
Agreed, the main thing that will make or break a unit is points, and we dont know a lot of those yet. Its just weird that people are on opposite ends of the spectrum about the codex while knowing the same information.
But we legitimately can't know how all of that comes together until codex is in hand and we have a good SOLID read through plus games played.
Good or bad.
Well looking at the new strats, the points for buggies and a few other things I think we will be pretty fine as an army. I'm still a bit salty over 7 ppm boys but I assume some other units will get a hike with CA2018 as well, If not I can always grumble then. The stream was well...
it was bad. Showing both that the Stompa will continue to be bad as well as the fact that Knights should never have been made available for 2,000 point games. Especially not as a stand-alone army. I'm pretty confident my planned mechanized/dreadmob list will be in a good spot though. Probably as Evil Sunz but the 3 rerolls a unit Death Skullz look pretty enticing too right now. From the rumors I was assuming it'd be 1 reroll a unit but 1 of each (hit, dmg, wound) is pretty good.
They could fix this in CA by taking a page from the horus heresy and saying LoW cannot be more than 25% of the points in your 2K army. As far as I'm concerned, LoW don't belong in 2K games at all, but this would still make room for those who want them.
I agree entirely, but there's a full Knight codex out there, GW will never axe them as an army.
Depends, they could easily put such a prohibition in place and then note that certain <KEYWORDS> are exempt from it.
And then make sure every LoW, or at least every Imperial one with a recently released model gets the keyword to make it exempt
Yeah the deathskulls have a place for sure and have replaced the Bad Moonz for the shooty support unit in terms of KMK/dragsta fire support. The re-rolling for each unit (each kannon being it's own unit) is a massive boost to the firepower and the 6++ never hurt. 6++ gretchin lets go! As far a whole army I don't think they would be all that bad either. Their HQs would be that little bit better and Nobs that little bit extra killy with their klaws. I don't favor them overall however and still give that to the evil sunz because at the end of the day you want to get stuck in and they do it best. Blood Axes might have a range stipulation to their cover and can be shut down by ignore cover.
Heck I could say some decent artillery, walker and then goff skarboy jump/teleport lists being pretty decent.
They could fix this in CA by taking a page from the horus heresy and saying LoW cannot be more than 25% of the points in your 2K army. As far as I'm concerned, LoW don't belong in 2K games at all, but this would still make room for those who want them.
I agree entirely, but there's a full Knight codex out there, GW will never axe them as an army.
Depends, they could easily put such a prohibition in place and then note that certain <KEYWORDS> are exempt from it.
And then make sure every LoW, or at least every Imperial one with a recently released model gets the keyword to make it exempt
Yeah because all those non-imperial titans sure are a problem right now lol.
My main takeaway from watching the game was: nothing. We saw some knights massacre a kind of a joke list, which they did without breaking a sweat. It tells us nothing at all about the state of orks in competition excet not to take stompas. We can be sure that they got half the new rules wrong, too... and probably some of the old ones.
Usually they manage to find people who play like they've never used their armies before for all these streams. This time the knight player actually looked like maybe he'd got a clue what he was doing, so what was already a complete missmatch became a three-turn tabling. A 400 point knight Errant killed a Morkanaught and a Stompa with the paragon gauntlet, and the orks didn't really have anything else to start with.
The interesting thing is going to see the interaction of the new rules with actually competitive lists. There are already ork lists that can do well in tournaments. They will be better with the codex, in ways that we don't really know yet.
So I know it's really boring, but the only option is to wait until you've got the book in your hand and play some games with it. Or let a couple of months go by and see what (if anything) does well at tournaments.
7PPM boyz is workable, it sucks if they had 0 stat buffs or something to compensate (im fine with literally dropping numbers but keeping overall strength similar) but 5ppm grots?
Unless they gave grots access to Shootas, f off with that nonsense.
Has any army that was actually shown in this "new codex" streams... won? I remember both Thousand Sons and Deathwatch being trashed in their streams when the codex was gonna be released. Also, yeah, playing a ork-heavy titan army vs the most op-titans of the game that are specialized in taking down other titans was just... not very smart.
There was the Imperial Knight bat rep, which featured Knight versus Knight, though IIRC it suffered from wonky "special" rules and whatnot thrown in for the sake of things.
What I forgot to add to my previous post: I'm pretty hyped for the new Battle wagon profiles. Having a shooty version with bs4+ as well as reduced point cost will be the closest I can get to tanks as an Ork so that makes me pretty happy. As well as being able to avoid the rule of 3 if I really want to go heavy on the Battle wagons. Which if the rules are good will be limited by my wallet more than my willingness to play a BW list.
I laugh when people here told me to try out the new stompa vs normal knights as playing against shadowsword was unfair (despite the shadow sword now confirmed to be less than half it's points). Well there we have it! It's trash... I just really wish i could know why that dude who wrote the ork codex went "Yep, 890 points... sounds about right!" Did he not even play it once! Did he not even role some dice?
nflagey wrote: I want to test the Stompa and/or Orkanaut against IK at home but I have only the index for IK. Are the IK much better in the Codex?
In terms of PL, to do a rough comparison, I would need 2 IK + 2 Armiger against 1 Stompa + 1 Orkanaut, correct?
I honestly don't know how much the IKs changed from index to codex, but I do know why the codex is so strong - their warlord traits, house bonuses, stratagems, and relics. And I think they got deep points cuts, too.
Long story boring, with the right stratagems and relics, you have a knight with a 3+ invlun, 5A, WS2, wounds on 2+, AP4, D8, which gets +2 to move and charge, can advance and charge, which means it has a 25" - 30" threat range.
All of THAT is cheaper than a gorkanaut. And could kill a stompa in one round.
fe40k wrote: For what its worth, they were playing a PL game.
"My list started with a Stompa, a Gorkanaut, and a Morkanaut, but then I realized that was 120pl"
He also said that he was a new ork player, and wanted to make a Stompa list; and then afterwards, he said he still wanted to make a Stompa list work - so; can't blame it too much, the Stompa is overpriced scrap; and he was battling against Knights...
But I thought he was some kind of dev? So... You know... if you wanted to make a Stompa list work... Start with asking why its priced at more than 500pts?
nflagey wrote: I want to test the Stompa and/or Orkanaut against IK at home but I have only the index for IK. Are the IK much better in the Codex?
In terms of PL, to do a rough comparison, I would need 2 IK + 2 Armiger against 1 Stompa + 1 Orkanaut, correct?
Knights have gone from crap to OP with the codex, although I kinda feel that a major contribution to this are a few specific things: Ion Bulwark + Rotate Ion Shields (when fielding a single Knight), Paragon Gauntlet (no to hit penalty AND +2D is WAY too much. One of those needs to go) and Cawls' Wrath (Plasma Decimator that doubles damage output on normal mode and +50% on overcharged mode... I also think it got +1S on both modes? Extra damage needs to go and be replaced by roll 3d6 pick two highest for shot count or something). Also points costs for Castellan and Helverin are probably on the low side.
But yeah, your PL level estimation is about correct I'd say. With the addition that the big knights need to be Questoris and not Dominus class to keep things equal PL-wise.
nflagey wrote: I want to test the Stompa and/or Orkanaut against IK at home but I have only the index for IK. Are the IK much better in the Codex?
In terms of PL, to do a rough comparison, I would need 2 IK + 2 Armiger against 1 Stompa + 1 Orkanaut, correct?
I honestly don't know how much the IKs changed from index to codex, but I do know why the codex is so strong - their warlord traits, house bonuses, stratagems, and relics. And I think they got deep points cuts, too.
Long story boring, with the right stratagems and relics, you have a knight with a 3+ invlun, 5A, WS2, wounds on 2+, AP4, D8, which gets +2 to move and charge, can advance and charge, which means it has a 25" - 30" threat range.
All of THAT is cheaper than a gorkanaut. And could kill a stompa in one round.
It's bonkers.
- 3++ is only vs. shooting unless you take a specific relic that I don't remember the name of that grants you that same bonus in CC. Also you can't have both Ion Bulwark (only way to get 3++) and Landstrider on the same Knight because both are Warlord Traits.
- A Gallant is about 350 points? Looking at PL the Gorkanaut will clock in at about 250-300 (comparing to the index Gorkanaut isn't fair, although I'm not sure how much that one costs when kitted out).
Not saying that Knights aren't OP but especially the Gallant kinda needs Landstrider + Full Tilt + 5A WS2 in order to be viable. Should go up in price though and the Paragon Gauntlet should definitely be nerfed (either no penalty to hit or the D8 needs to go).
fe40k wrote: For what its worth, they were playing a PL game.
"My list started with a Stompa, a Gorkanaut, and a Morkanaut, but then I realized that was 120pl"
He also said that he was a new ork player, and wanted to make a Stompa list; and then afterwards, he said he still wanted to make a Stompa list work - so; can't blame it too much, the Stompa is overpriced scrap; and he was battling against Knights...
But I thought he was some kind of dev? So... You know... if you wanted to make a Stompa list work... Start with asking why its priced at more than 500pts?
Dude, you had one of the lead devs saying it could take on two stompa no problem as 1 knight walks through a gork and just kills the stompa... Seriously. They must have (when the camera went off) gone "What the actual feth? Why did we price it at that?" and then a man leans in and goes "yes... this will kill of the orks! Once they realise how much money they wasted on design and marketing they will surely get rid of orks forever! Muahahahaaaaaa" ( this is all a joke of course i don;t think this actually happened).
nflagey wrote: I want to test the Stompa and/or Orkanaut against IK at home but I have only the index for IK. Are the IK much better in the Codex?
In terms of PL, to do a rough comparison, I would need 2 IK + 2 Armiger against 1 Stompa + 1 Orkanaut, correct?
They are cheaper in general but it's mostly stratagems and relics that make up the difference.
I can give you the PL of knights from the codex but don't have the index around.
Both armiger variants are 9PL each
The preceptor, the warden & the paladin are 23PL
The errant is 22PL
The gallant is 20PL
The crusader is 25PL
Canis rex (the character) is 23PL
And the valiant and the castellan are 30PL
fe40k wrote: For what its worth, they were playing a PL game.
"My list started with a Stompa, a Gorkanaut, and a Morkanaut, but then I realized that was 120pl"
He also said that he was a new ork player, and wanted to make a Stompa list; and then afterwards, he said he still wanted to make a Stompa list work - so; can't blame it too much, the Stompa is overpriced scrap; and he was battling against Knights...
But I thought he was some kind of dev? So... You know... if you wanted to make a Stompa list work... Start with asking why its priced at more than 500pts?
Dude, you had one of the lead devs saying it could take on two stompa no problem as 1 knight walks through a gork and just kills the stompa... Seriously. They must have (when the camera went off) gone "What the actual feth? Why did we price it at that?" and then a man leans in and goes "yes... this will kill of the orks! Once they realise how much money they wasted on design and marketing they will surely get rid of orks forever! Muahahahaaaaaa" ( this is all a joke of course i don;t think this actually happened).
I knew John Bracken way back when i first ever started Warhammer. He was in the Hanley store in Stoke. Nice guy but he was just a manager back then. I remember fighting against him at battle brothers in Warhammer world and trashed his space marines with my looted tanks (R.I.P )
He has the typical over hyped GW store manager mentality when it comes to any of their products so of course he will big up the stompa, but i didnt know he became a game dev! He always booked my tables at warhammer world for me when he moved there
fe40k wrote: They were just mentioning that from a competitive standpoint, his plan is to get into melee; the shooting is just a bonus.
I hope a decent (albeit if not the most competitive) list can be made from shooting units.
Your joking right? You can take 9 shock jump buggies for under 1K and make them def skulls. They hit on a 3 with a free reroll to hit, wound and damage roll EACH. This book is not difficult to power game at all from the leaked cultures and strats alone.
All that crying over imaginary spilled milk with boys being 7ppm, and now what the few were telling you, wait and see, turns out to be true and worse. Turns out you can easily start the game with a full battalion of blood axes with 4+ saves and maxed defskull buggies between them form an outrider, oh whats that? They will shoot the buggies? Right, so you not only have a 6++ but when it does finally go down, without degrading, for only 1cp one of those bricks of 30 blood ax boys becomes 3+ save...
This books traits are easily the most broken the game has seen. Some of these klans are getting 2-3 other factions traits all rolled into one and some even better.
In order to get those 4+ saves you need to burn 2Cp though, unless boyz now have 5+ saves base. Still bloody good though.
2 cp is a joke. It hits 30 guys and lasts all game. Guard has +1 to a 10 man unit for a phase at 1cp. How anyone can figure thats expensive is beyond me. A single blood axe battalion brings 5 CP, so for 1 more and only 630 you get 90 4+ save boys...
Blood aces with the +2 cover save are elites and can't go to 30 models at army creation
lolman1c wrote: I laugh when people here told me to try out the new stompa vs normal knights as playing against shadowsword was unfair (despite the shadow sword now confirmed to be less than half it's points). Well there we have it! It's trash... I just really wish i could know why that dude who wrote the ork codex went "Yep, 890 points... sounds about right!" Did he not even play it once! Did he not even role some dice?
Again there is a broader problem of Shadowswords distinctly being titan killers as well as knights being a wee bit undercosted. And they fought 3 plus armigers. And didn't have first turn. And lost the scrapjet, which could have put some pain out, too.
fe40k wrote: They were just mentioning that from a competitive standpoint, his plan is to get into melee; the shooting is just a bonus.
I hope a decent (albeit if not the most competitive) list can be made from shooting units.
Your joking right? You can take 9 shock jump buggies for under 1K and make them def skulls. They hit on a 3 with a free reroll to hit, wound and damage roll EACH. This book is not difficult to power game at all from the leaked cultures and strats alone.
All that crying over imaginary spilled milk with boys being 7ppm, and now what the few were telling you, wait and see, turns out to be true and worse. Turns out you can easily start the game with a full battalion of blood axes with 4+ saves and maxed defskull buggies between them form an outrider, oh whats that? They will shoot the buggies? Right, so you not only have a 6++ but when it does finally go down, without degrading, for only 1cp one of those bricks of 30 blood ax boys becomes 3+ save...
This books traits are easily the most broken the game has seen. Some of these klans are getting 2-3 other factions traits all rolled into one and some even better.
In order to get those 4+ saves you need to burn 2Cp though, unless boyz now have 5+ saves base. Still bloody good though.
2 cp is a joke. It hits 30 guys and lasts all game. Guard has +1 to a 10 man unit for a phase at 1cp. How anyone can figure thats expensive is beyond me. A single blood axe battalion brings 5 CP, so for 1 more and only 630 you get 90 4+ save boys...
Blood aces with the +2 cover save are elites and can't go to 30 models at army creation
Hes on about 'ard boy blood axes, for 6cp you'll have 90 4+ save boys vs shooting
Billagio wrote: Ramming speed 2CP, 3D6 charge D3 MWs on a 2+ (?)
Is that one actually real? I'm starting to doubt it to be honest, almost too good with a Tellyport Gorkanaut...
Pretty sure. They didnt show the stratagem but I believe it was used in the batrep when the Wartrike charged the Armiger
In that case: Gorkanaut, here I come!
Yeah should be good! I would wait for the actual wording first though.
Yeah I know, not going to buy one immediately, my wallet would disapprove as well Tomorrow will be Codex + Trike preorder and Speed Freeks will also be waiting for me tomorrow so the 'Naut will have to wait till December (+ a Skrapjet or Arachnarok Spider to use as a Deffrolla Wagon proxy).
lolman1c wrote: I laugh when people here told me to try out the new stompa vs normal knights as playing against shadowsword was unfair (despite the shadow sword now confirmed to be less than half it's points). Well there we have it! It's trash... I just really wish i could know why that dude who wrote the ork codex went "Yep, 890 points... sounds about right!" Did he not even play it once! Did he not even role some dice?
Again there is a broader problem of Shadowswords distinctly being titan killers as well as knights being a wee bit undercosted. And they fought 3 plus armigers. And didn't have first turn. And lost the scrapjet, which could have put some pain out, too.
Seriously, if I hadn't have watched the live stream i wouldn't be as upset but that was terrible marketing. Do not over hype your product to the point it's basically false advertising then show how false it is in the next ten seconds. I really got super exited for the stompa and nauts and then just got smashed when i saw them die... The point of marketing is that is influences how you feel about a product and this could be the best codex ever but that was just awful! And to see points go up on units that seriously needed a buff is also unbelievable. Look at the flyer! It has gone up by 16pts! It's a unit I've never actually seen in real life because it was so bad in 7th and the index. XD
Seriously, if I hadn't have watched the live stream i wouldn't be as upset but that was terrible marketing. Do not over hype your product to the point it's basically false advertising then show how false it is in the next ten seconds. I really got super exited for the stompa and nauts and then just got smashed when i saw them die... The point of marketing is that is influences how you feel about a product and this could be the best codex ever but that was just awful! And to see points go up on units that seriously needed a buff is also unbelievable. Look at the flyer! It has gone up by 16pts! It's a unit I've never actually seen in real life because it was so bad in 7th and the index. XD
Yea, I'm sure he regrets being all in on the Stompa.
The flyer is still needs to be judged in context, which we don't really have yet.
Yeah, the flyer going up in points doesn't mean anything yet. They might completely rehaul weapon profiles. Probably not, but no point in crying foul just yet
Well, that was hilarious. The embarrassment after the game was just delicious. The second I saw knights get turn one I started laughing and then they just continued the comedy with each little preciction of UPCOMING ORKY AWESOMENESS that then fell completely flat.
I just wonder what level of ivory tower you have to live in to see that kind of thing happen every time you try to play the game you design and figure "yeah, the basic balance is in pretty good shape."
the_scotsman wrote: Well, that was hilarious. The embarrassment after the game was just delicious. The second I saw knights get turn one I started laughing and then they just continued the comedy with each little preciction of UPCOMING ORKY AWESOMENESS that then fell completely flat.
I just wonder what level of ivory tower you have to live in to see that kind of thing happen every time you try to play the game you design and figure "yeah, the basic balance is in pretty good shape."
They don't live in a tower of white, they live in a tower of green.
All indicators are showing that you don't need a good game to make money hand over fist - you just need nostalgia (which is the only thing this game is currently running on). Why would they worry about changing now?
the_scotsman wrote: Well, that was hilarious. The embarrassment after the game was just delicious. The second I saw knights get turn one I started laughing and then they just continued the comedy with each little preciction of UPCOMING ORKY AWESOMENESS that then fell completely flat.
I just wonder what level of ivory tower you have to live in to see that kind of thing happen every time you try to play the game you design and figure "yeah, the basic balance is in pretty good shape."
It's not ivory tower. All of the REAL GW game designers know exactly what they are doing.
The stompa is where it is on purpose. It looses to half of its points in Knights or Baneblades because the designers want it to lose.
the_scotsman wrote: Well, that was hilarious. The embarrassment after the game was just delicious. The second I saw knights get turn one I started laughing and then they just continued the comedy with each little preciction of UPCOMING ORKY AWESOMENESS that then fell completely flat.
I just wonder what level of ivory tower you have to live in to see that kind of thing happen every time you try to play the game you design and figure "yeah, the basic balance is in pretty good shape."
It's not ivory tower. All of the REAL GW game designers know exactly what they are doing.
The stompa is where it is on purpose. It looses to half of its points in Knights or Baneblades because the designers want it to lose.
They know.
Yeah at this point I'm 100% convinced they made the Stompa garbage on purpose. For whatever reason they just don't want it to be good for us. Werther it's because Xenos are not allowed to have nice LoW like 'Umies (unlikely) or because they figured putting a FW tier unit in a codex was a mistake (more likely) doesn't matter at this point. GW decided we are not allowed to have Stompas in 2k games and that's the end of it. There is 0 reason to believe they did not do this on purpose at this point. With the Knight codex they showed they can "reasonably"* price LoW for use in standard games, but for some reason we are not allowed to use ours.
*reasonable as in usable. Many here seem to think they are OP so please don't fall over my use of reasonable here.
Seriously, if I hadn't have watched the live stream i wouldn't be as upset but that was terrible marketing. Do not over hype your product to the point it's basically false advertising then show how false it is in the next ten seconds. I really got super exited for the stompa and nauts and then just got smashed when i saw them die... The point of marketing is that is influences how you feel about a product and this could be the best codex ever but that was just awful! And to see points go up on units that seriously needed a buff is also unbelievable. Look at the flyer! It has gone up by 16pts! It's a unit I've never actually seen in real life because it was so bad in 7th and the index. XD
Yea, I'm sure he regrets being all in on the Stompa.
The flyer is still needs to be judged in context, which we don't really have yet.
I think the long uncontrolled bursts stratagem could possibly make the wazboom betterrrrrr??? I didnt get chance to read the whole stratagem on the stream as it went to quick but a +1 to hit vs fly units? or maybe it was only against flyers... either way who knows what the wazboom will be like, i will still be using my blitza bommers though.
the_scotsman wrote: Well, that was hilarious. The embarrassment after the game was just delicious. The second I saw knights get turn one I started laughing and then they just continued the comedy with each little preciction of UPCOMING ORKY AWESOMENESS that then fell completely flat.
I just wonder what level of ivory tower you have to live in to see that kind of thing happen every time you try to play the game you design and figure "yeah, the basic balance is in pretty good shape."
It's not ivory tower. All of the REAL GW game designers know exactly what they are doing.
The stompa is where it is on purpose. It looses to half of its points in Knights or Baneblades because the designers want it to lose.
They know.
Yeah at this point I'm 100% convinced they made the Stompa garbage on purpose. For whatever reason they just don't want it to be good for us. Werther it's because Xenos are not allowed to have nice LoW like 'Umies (unlikely) or because they figured putting a FW tier unit in a codex was a mistake (more likely) doesn't matter at this point. GW decided we are not allowed to have Stompas in 2k games and that's the end of it. There is 0 reason to believe they did not do this on purpose at this point. With the Knight codex they showed they can "reasonably"* price LoW for use in standard games, but for some reason we are not allowed to use ours.
*reasonable as in usable. Many here seem to think they are OP so please don't fall over my use of reasonable here.
But it's a GW plastic product! It's not even that expensive at £70 compared to most LAW... maybe because of it's price they don;t want you to spam them when the big ones are like £100. Seriously, though... this is like If I bought a TV and then the company just upgraded it so it only shows me black and white 260p footage. It's a defunct product at this point.
Castozor wrote: or because they figured putting a FW tier unit in a codex was a mistake
Didn't they overcost FW's models in CA? Please tell me if I am mistaken.
But if I am not, I suppose they could not make THEIR stompa blatantly better I guess.
Was looking at the sprues on the NZ site ... looks like at least some wheels can right away be swapped between models (the hole seem to be the same size).
I'm not saying that it's not possible to do more than that with the proper tools, but these models are definitely not highly customizable from scratch ...
Castozor wrote: or because they figured putting a FW tier unit in a codex was a mistake
Didn't they overcost FW's models in CA? Please tell me if I am mistaken.
But if I am not, I suppose they could not make THEIR stompa blatantly better I guess.
It's not really even the stompa is bad... it's that the entire live stream revolved around it... This one magical unit that could finally counter a knight army! The dude actually says bring a stompa if you're annoyed with your mates knight army... and then instantly shows you how that's not a good idea... They either showed you how bad a stompa is or how OP knights are... Both options show GW is incompetent at making rules... Bad bad marketing.
The joke is they go on about how good the knight is if you add all this stuff to him but then that makes him 1k+ points! He doesn't even come with an invlun!
If they had just plopped a Stompa down on the table with two Knight Paladins and had them go at it with no Clan Kultures/House Traditions, relics, and stratagems I can see how they might have given themselves the impression that a Stompa could take on two Knights.
I would hope they were smart enough not to playtest like that.
Dakka Flakka Flame wrote: If they had just plopped a Stompa down on the table with two Knight Paladins and had them go at it with no Clan Kultures/House Traditions, relics, and stratagems I can see how they might have given themselves the impression that a Stompa could take on two Knights.
I would hope they were smart enough not to playtest like that.
Also, maybe the play testing happened before the knight codex.
Castozor wrote: or because they figured putting a FW tier unit in a codex was a mistake
Didn't they overcost FW's models in CA? Please tell me if I am mistaken. But if I am not, I suppose they could not make THEIR stompa blatantly better I guess.
It's not really even the stompa is bad... it's that the entire live stream revolved around it... This one magical unit that could finally counter a knight army! The dude actually says bring a stompa if you're annoyed with your mates knight army... and then instantly shows you how that's not a good idea... They either showed you how bad a stompa is or how OP knights are... Both options show GW is incompetent at making rules... Bad bad marketing.
The whole thing it's an embarrassment, and shows the complete lack of professionalism in the staff. But I am not going to indulge on it because the relevant comments have already been made. Just wondering about the reason. I was baffled by CA back then so I am trying to put 2 and 2 together. But someone could point out I am wrong on CA, not making absolute statements here.
Dakka Flakka Flame wrote: If they had just plopped a Stompa down on the table with two Knight Paladins and had them go at it with no Clan Kultures/House Traditions, relics, and stratagems I can see how they might have given themselves the impression that a Stompa could take on two Knights.
I would hope they were smart enough not to playtest like that.
Also, maybe the play testing happened before the knight codex.
That's possible. I assumed they would have been testing codexes against codexes but I really don't know how they did it.
Castozor wrote: or because they figured putting a FW tier unit in a codex was a mistake
Didn't they overcost FW's models in CA? Please tell me if I am mistaken.
But if I am not, I suppose they could not make THEIR stompa blatantly better I guess.
It's not really even the stompa is bad... it's that the entire live stream revolved around it... This one magical unit that could finally counter a knight army! The dude actually says bring a stompa if you're annoyed with your mates knight army... and then instantly shows you how that's not a good idea... They either showed you how bad a stompa is or how OP knights are... Both options show GW is incompetent at making rules... Bad bad marketing.
The whole thing it's an embarrassment, and shows the complete lack of professionalism in the staff. But I am not going to indulge on it because the relevant comments have already been made. Just wondering about the reason. I was baffled by CA back then so I am trying to put 2 and 2 together. But someone could point out I am wrong on CA, not making absolute statements here.
I'll post this video again because it's funny as hell but also you can see it on their faces. They know it's way over points... The guy knows the meta! For some reason it's just stupid points I want to know why that reason is (also can someone also tell me why the painboy went up in value? That was a over coasted unit anyway as it was...)
Dakka Flakka Flame wrote: If they had just plopped a Stompa down on the table with two Knight Paladins and had them go at it with no Clan Kultures/House Traditions, relics, and stratagems I can see how they might have given themselves the impression that a Stompa could take on two Knights.
I would hope they were smart enough not to playtest like that.
No, they added 500 + 500 and got 1000. That's GW's playtesting.
Thinking back to the Painboy price increase; all I can really think is that this was the GW thought process
(Boyz go up in price)
"The Painboy can now save MORE points of boyz with its ability, at no change. We must increase its cost for balance!"
Meanwhile, in reality... the amount of models saved is even less...
Given the fact that the Stompa didn't change, the Painboy went up, and other little things didn't really get changed here and there either - I really hope our other units got reconsidered and buffed; if they needed it. I really want to convert some Deff Koptas.
I'm just concerned that "They got access to strategems and Kultur; this makes them stronger. Increase the price!" might have caused our units to either not drop, or worse, increase across the board.
Well, I got my hands on my box and I can confirm there is essentially zero customizability in the buggies, down to the molded on glyphs and models having their limbs not attach at the shoulder so you can't swap them.
On the bright side it was very easy to build (one might even say...Easy-To-Build but these ain't no 25$ models) and the details are absolutely awesome. These are wonderfully orky models unlike some of the more bland recent offerings like orkanauts.
I've only built the dragsta so far but the little details on the model made me chuckle at least five times. The gun is fired by a squig, a Grot with an Atari joystick, and another Grot spotting targets with a string of grenades tied to his back so he doesn't run away. The engine is a shokk attack gun.
Castozor wrote: or because they figured putting a FW tier unit in a codex was a mistake
Didn't they overcost FW's models in CA? Please tell me if I am mistaken.
But if I am not, I suppose they could not make THEIR stompa blatantly better I guess.
Yes this is my point. FW are overcosted, so they can't make the Stompa usable as a FW tier model even though it's an index/codex model. Overall I'm not really mad though. Yes I'm sad boyz are 7 ppm and the Stompa is still garbage, but A) I believe we will see a price hike for other "too good" basic infantry in CA and B) a usable Stompa would have been nice but I still think these kind of models should not be usable in 2k point games period. And like my first post indicated, I think we will be in a pretty good spot. Take that with a grain of salt as I'm both a new player and my local meta isn't comparable to tournaments. But I think for regular play we can field a variety of fun, fluffy and usable lists. The stompa will just not be in those lists.
Okay, here's how I would have done tonight's live stream if I was a multi million pound company who just made stupid money this year and had just invested hundreds of thousands of pounds into the revival of an entire faction.
1. I'd have examined the tournament for one of the top Ork players.
2. Payed for them to have come down to GW 1 week ago. I wouldn't have evn have had to pay them, just offered to pay for flights and accommodation and given them free models.
3. Given them 1 week to get a feel for the codex and to either create a great list with lots of new units (then got someone to paint those units up) or given them a premade list and 1 week to get a hang of that list.
4. Looked at the games and seen who he preformed the best against.
5. Shown that game on live stream to show how amazing Orks are.
6. Profit!
Right now I have counted about 6 people who told me the live stream put them off starting an ork army.
I found one of the saddest things about the Index Stompa was that it also had major problems at FW tier because of the way macro weapons work. It had no good defense against them and didn't have any weapons anywhere near as damaging to shoot back with.
I'm still holding out hope that the codex willl make the Stompa worth taking in fun, casual games. It was so bad in the Index there was nothing fun about it.
Castozor wrote: or because they figured putting a FW tier unit in a codex was a mistake
Didn't they overcost FW's models in CA? Please tell me if I am mistaken. But if I am not, I suppose they could not make THEIR stompa blatantly better I guess.
Yes this is my point. FW are overcosted, so they can't make the Stompa usable as a FW tier model even though it's an index/codex model. Overall I'm not really mad though. Yes I'm sad boyz are 7 ppm and the Stompa is still garbage, but A) I believe we will see a price hike for other "too good" basic infantry in CA and B) a usable Stompa would have been nice but I still think these kind of models should not be usable in 2k point games period. And like my first post indicated, I think we will be in a pretty good spot. Take that with a grain of salt as I'm both a new player and my local meta isn't comparable to tournaments. But I think for regular play we can field a variety of fun, fluffy and usable lists. The stompa will just not be in those lists.
It really depends from the cost and synergies of the rest of the codex. Wait and see. We have seen good things, too. For sure, the battle casts a terrible light on the team. I am following here with a relative distance - I have a good friend of mine that quit because he was dissatisfied by his orks (I converted and painted some Ork for him these days, KT - this is why I was following the relative forum). I am curious to see if there are reasons to convince him to come back full force. For sure there are many reasons to think different units got improved and are now usable. I am just sure that, as in 7th, GW risks to leave a good amount of money on the table, and there is the possibility they killed some pre-order with this battle video.
lolman1c wrote: Okay, here's how I would have done tonight's live stream if I was a multi million pound company who just made stupid money this year and had just invested hundreds of thousands of pounds into the revival of an entire faction.
1. I'd have examined the tournament for one of the top Ork players.
2. Payed for them to have come down to GW 1 week ago. I wouldn't have evn have had to pay them, just offered to pay for flights and accommodation and given them free models.
3. Given them 1 week to get a feel for the codex and to either create a great list with lots of new units (then got someone to paint those units up) or given them a premade list and 1 week to get a hang of that list.
4. Looked at the games and seen who he preformed the best against.
5. Shown that game on live stream to show how amazing Orks are.
6. Profit!
Right now I have counted about 6 people who told me the live stream put them off starting an ork army.
Maybe I sound like a broken record, but knights and the like should have no place at a 2k game. Why they decided the game should be against knights with a Stompa just baffles me. They could have made any number of TAC lists showing off buggies, the trike boss and strats but decided that a dust up between mega heavies should be the focus.
Castozor wrote: or because they figured putting a FW tier unit in a codex was a mistake
Didn't they overcost FW's models in CA? Please tell me if I am mistaken.
But if I am not, I suppose they could not make THEIR stompa blatantly better I guess.
Yes this is my point. FW are overcosted, so they can't make the Stompa usable as a FW tier model even though it's an index/codex model. Overall I'm not really mad though. Yes I'm sad boyz are 7 ppm and the Stompa is still garbage, but A) I believe we will see a price hike for other "too good" basic infantry in CA and B) a usable Stompa would have been nice but I still think these kind of models should not be usable in 2k point games period. And like my first post indicated, I think we will be in a pretty good spot. Take that with a grain of salt as I'm both a new player and my local meta isn't comparable to tournaments. But I think for regular play we can field a variety of fun, fluffy and usable lists. The stompa will just not be in those lists.
I love how logic twists in the wind post hoc.
CAFW nerfs - They don't want to sell FW models over plastic!!
Stompa high cost - They don't want to sell FWtier models.
Makes sense now. How could we not see it before....
CAFW nerfs - They don't want to sell FW models over plastic!!
Stompa high cost - They don't want to sell FWtier models.
Makes sense now. How could we not see it before....
You are probably right and we are just paranoid, but this means that we are in an "Hanlon's Razor" situation - we assume malice while there is in fact stupidity/incompetence.
It's not going to look better, I am afraid. Arguably, it's looking worse.
I can't believe that they'd make Ork vehicles with zero options. I can't believe they'd make so many different ones. I can't believe they're still selling the Gorkamorka kopta and trakk alongside those billions new buggies (and plastic deffkoptas...). I can't believe there's no new infantry*. This feels like something that'd come out with a summer campaign codex, especially the speed freaks list for Armageddon.
But there's a bloodbag Grot, a fat hobo Ork with shottie, a literal pile of squigs and the trike driver might be my favourite model of the year so far. Top three Ork models, actually.
And maybe a Deff Skwadron wing of lots of skrapjet might be actually decent? And Blood Axes, too? Nice.
*I never thought we'd get new Kommandoz/Tankbustas, though, since nothing was rumoures or leaked, so at least I'm not mad.
=(
Still, I'm glad to see the race with the best teleportin' teknology (albeit least controllable) finally get something that can well, teleport.
EDIT: Wait a moment... I'm not seeing a "one use only" condition.
Does this mean we can use it multiple times during deployment? Based on other stratagems, I'm leaning towards... yes?
CAFW nerfs - They don't want to sell FW models over plastic!!
Stompa high cost - They don't want to sell FWtier models.
Makes sense now. How could we not see it before....
Oh crap.
I personally never made that claim though? I'm just spit balling here as to why they made the stompa suck, which I'm sure is intentional at this point. I'm just personally not willing to go to the claim of G Dubs favours Imperial codexes/units over Xenos ones. But it's clear to me they made the Stompa suck for a reason. What that reason is exactly is anyone's guess.
Any news on whether regular warboss in mega armor is in the codex?
It seems like they have given us a bunch of ways to deal with T8, 3+ which is something I struggled with in the past (my most effective strategy being to either tie such models up in slap fights or ignore them and hope they don't table me). Of course we won't really know until the codex comes out.
It seems like they have given us a bunch of ways to deal with T8, 3+ which is something I struggled with in the past (my most effective strategy being to either tie such models up in slap fights or ignore them and hope they don't table me). Of course we won't really know until the codex comes out.
Honestly, now that we basically know the normal big mek with kff is gone, the biker boss and mek is gone, it wouldn't surprise me if the MA boss goes. Like I said (and was told I was wrong many months ago) codex orks is losing many of its options. We also lost KMB kanz as well. Now they're all on time bombs until 9th edition kills them for good.
CAFW nerfs - They don't want to sell FW models over plastic!!
Stompa high cost - They don't want to sell FWtier models.
Makes sense now. How could we not see it before....
You are probably right and we are just paranoid, but this means that we are in an "Hanlon's Razor" situation - we assume malice while there is in fact stupidity/incompetence.
It's not going to look better, I am afraid. Arguably, it's looking worse.
Yea, I mean I'll call it incompetence in the nicest sense of the word, but I'm withholding judgement until CA.
fe40k wrote: Did they reveal the Tellyporta strategem yet?
I'm hearing that it's a singular Ork unit?
That's so much less fun than just 20PL worth of units.
Yeah it was revealed. Its 20pl worth of A unit.
The way it's written you can put a transport of up to 20PL with any unit you want in it as there is nothing explaining how to/limiting what can be within.
=(
Still, I'm glad to see the race with the best teleportin' teknology (albeit least controllable) finally get something that can well, teleport.
EDIT: Wait a moment... I'm not seeing a "one use only" condition.
Does this mean we can use it multiple times during deployment? Based on other stratagems, I'm leaning towards... yes?
I believe you would be able to use it as many times as you have CP for, since it’s a before deployment stratagem
lolman1c wrote: Honestly, now that we basically know the normal big mek with kff is gone, the biker boss and mek is gone, it wouldn't surprise me if the MA boss goes. Like I said (and was told I was wrong many months ago) codex orks is losing many of its options. We also lost KMB kanz as well. Now they're all on time bombs until 9th edition kills them for good.
No more KMB Kanz? Dang.
I hope we didn't lose rokkits on koptas (not that they were worth taking in the index anyway).
Binabik15 wrote: I can't believe that they'd make Ork vehicles with zero options. I can't believe they'd make so many different ones. I can't believe they're still selling the Gorkamorka kopta and trakk alongside those billions new buggies (and plastic deffkoptas...). I can't believe there's no new infantry*. This feels like something that'd come out with a summer campaign codex, especially the speed freaks list for Armageddon.
Personally, this is exactly what I expected. The days of huge sprawling releases are long gone. Tight, themed mini-releases that can happen month after month are preferred, and have been for quite a while now. Even new 'armies' are more just new 'mini-factions' with a handful of kits, like Daughters of Khaine. Brand new stuff that really push the boundaries have been 10 kits, split between characters and dual kits (fish elves)
Binabik15 wrote: I can't believe that they'd make Ork vehicles with zero options. I can't believe they'd make so many different ones. I can't believe they're still selling the Gorkamorka kopta and trakk alongside those billions new buggies (and plastic deffkoptas...). I can't believe there's no new infantry*. This feels like something that'd come out with a summer campaign codex, especially the speed freaks list for Armageddon.
Personally, this is exactly what I expected. The days of huge sprawling releases are long gone. Tight, themed mini-releases that can happen month after month are preferred, and have been for quite a while now. Even new 'armies' are more just new 'mini-factions' with a handful of kits, like Daughters of Khaine. Brand new stuff that really push the boundaries have been 10 kits, split between characters and dual kits (fish elves)
lolman1c wrote: I do love how the stompa is so bad even daedalus is saying GW are idiots. XD
Misguided maybe, but not idiots.
There's logic that they're applying to the thought process that doesn't add up.
A) They expect all the stratagems / KFF / repairs in measuring the worth of a unit.
- While typically I'd say this is a bad idea a KFF on a model with 40 wounds adds something like 20% durability (depending what is shooting it).
B) They priced it and forgot about it. Playtesters made no comment on it, because they don't have a model or time to test it.
- At that point the play testers failed and GW should consider a more open process.
C) They are bumping the costs of units to be more in line with the Stompa's PL.
I almost feel like A is the reason (and maybe a little C), because you could see the though process for them on using More Dakka and a Mek Shop to run 18 shots exploding on 5s. And since it doesn't degrade on BS it is ok to sit back and get pummeled and repair.
It's sort of like saying how dumb it is to run marines without a cheap screen. It's stupid to run a Stompa w/o a mek, KFF, etc.
The list that guy ran didn't know what it wanted to be. It was a hodge podge of fun things to try on the table that made for an uncohesive army. He could have had a psyker supporting the trike with Fists/Smite and made more use of the boys to drag down the armigers. Or some more Boyz and CP getting jumped and gumming up the knights and regenerating.
The Stompa could be "okay-ish" with the right list. It just isn't going to be something people will chase until Knights come down from their pedestal.
A is most definitely the reason - I don't think it's wrong to assume that every unit is calculated as though it were under the effects of KFF; an unrealistic situation, and that's even before you factor in the extra points (on top of the points they add to a model because it's presumed to have a 5++) - but a potential one because KFF exists.
Does anyone have a CP cost on the "More Dakka" stratagem?
Mr.Church13 wrote: Just watched the battle report. And I gotta say this just makes me hate my own Knight collection that much more.
I’m honestly afraid to even play them due to it being pretty much easy mode. I don’t want to discourage players in our group.
I’m not sure debuting codexes against Knights is smart going forward.
And on topic. Even after this I’m still super hyped about Orks.
No comment on Knights being too good (though that is the consensus); but the Ork player took a 100% unoptimized list, and also took a Stompa.
I wouldn't put too much stock into the battle preview videos; from what im hearing, most of the time, the new army loses anyways - they don't try to make a good list at ALL.
The person who made the ork list was nearly a first time player; he was a new ork boss, and just wanted to use a Stompa (and i doubt he did the math to see if it was even good or not before hand). His initial list started with Stompa+Gorkanaut+Morkanaut; but that was too many PL for the video.
Yeah taking the stompa was probably a very bad choice. If he Teleported the Naut and charged it into a knight, and took 900 points of not Stompa it would have been much better imo
lolman1c wrote: I do love how the stompa is so bad even daedalus is saying GW are idiots. XD
A) They expect all the stratagems / KFF / repairs in measuring the worth of a unit.
- While typically I'd say this is a bad idea a KFF on a model with 40 wounds adds something like 20% durability (depending what is shooting it).
So why didn't they take into account the inbuilt invulnerable save Knights have when pricing them?
B) They priced it and forgot about it. Playtesters made no comment on it, because they don't have a model or time to test it.
- At that point the play testers failed and GW should consider a more open process.
They literally said on the stream that feedback had been saying that the Stompa wasn't worth the points.
I almost feel like A is the reason (and maybe a little C), because you could see the though process for them on using More Dakka and a Mek Shop to run 18 shots exploding on 5s. And since it doesn't degrade on BS it is ok to sit back and get pummeled and repair.
It's sort of like saying how dumb it is to run marines without a cheap screen. It's stupid to run a Stompa w/o a mek, KFF, etc.
Deffkannon with that setup generates 20 shots over two turns (18 shots, 6 hit, 2 additional hits from More Dakka). Deffkannon without the Mek Shop or More Dakka generates 21 shots on average.
Sit back and shoot? With a model that pays a hefty price for a major melee profile? Equivalent points would buy you 21 Kustom Mega Kannons, for an average of 73 BS4+ Str 8 Ap-3 D3 dmg shots per turn, and a combined wound total of 126 wounds, all of which can be Deffskulls giving you a reroll to hit and to wound with every gun.
The Stompa is garbage. No amount of army building or stratagems will change that.
The stompa was going to be garbage regardless!!!
Buzzgrobs stompa was 400 pts in 7th tournaments and was barely competitive at just over half the cost....
The stompa needs to be priced just under a castellan to be usable.
Binabik15 wrote: I can't believe that they'd make Ork vehicles with zero options. I can't believe they'd make so many different ones. I can't believe they're still selling the Gorkamorka kopta and trakk alongside those billions new buggies (and plastic deffkoptas...). I can't believe there's no new infantry*. This feels like something that'd come out with a summer campaign codex, especially the speed freaks list for Armageddon.
But there's a bloodbag Grot, a fat hobo Ork with shottie, a literal pile of squigs and the trike driver might be my favourite model of the year so far. Top three Ork models, actually.
And maybe a Deff Skwadron wing of lots of skrapjet might be actually decent? And Blood Axes, too? Nice.
*I never thought we'd get new Kommandoz/Tankbustas, though, since nothing was rumoures or leaked, so at least I'm not mad.
I second that.
What a let down.
Not one (!) infantry figure.
I was not that interested in the buggy thing as much as Evil Sun player, playing Blodd Axes,
but it is hard to swallow they released that buggies galore and let the track and kopter
as it, especially the trakk.
So what? Trakk will be done in 9th edition maybe?
I do not feel that all these buggies were needed, and the kits have no option at all... meh!
And do not even get me started on the Big Gunz again,
this where we actually lost something and was liking in
the army.
I will wait for the Blood Axes article and will probably buy the codex anyway,
but model-wise this release has been a major let-down for me.
I suspected it all along, no way it'd have options with that amount of sprue lol. New GW want to minimize cost while still selling you stuff at similar or higher price point.
One thing I was really hoping for was tankbustas having their ability work on the MONSTER keyword. I guess it doesnt make sense in the fluff so thats why they didnt do it. Oh well.
I really like the new vehicles, but them being monobuilds is a major missed opportunity. Would have been great if they were designed to swap parts with the trukk and battlewagon, or if the scrap jet was able to swap over parts with the dakkajet.
Billagio wrote: One thing I was really hoping for was tankbustas having their ability work on the MONSTER keyword. I guess it doesnt make sense in the fluff so thats why they didnt do it. Oh well.
Yeah, this is actually a big deal - rename the ability "Big Game Hunters"; and have it function the exact same, but also against monsters.
Especially considering that Carnifex statlines are identical (I think) to Leman Russ statlines... T7/8, Sv3+; that's basically every vehicle/monster stat line.
So why didn't they take into account the inbuilt invulnerable save Knights have when pricing them?
Sure, and they tried a little too hard on knights. There seems to be a mental expectation that a model with 40 wounds, a 5++, and 2D3 healing brings some superior dynamic. And to a degree it does.
They literally said on the stream that feedback had been saying that the Stompa wasn't worth the points.
I'll have to go back and listen that to in context.
Deffkannon with that setup generates 20 shots over two turns (18 shots, 6 hit, 2 additional hits from More Dakka). Deffkannon without the Mek Shop or More Dakka generates 21 shots on average.
You sort of hid the shots on that first one. Mek + More Dakka = 24 shots. It's not prone to bad rolls, but it's a little like Scrodinger's 3D6.
Sit back and shoot? With a model that pays a hefty price for a major melee profile? Equivalent points would buy you 21 Kustom Mega Kannons, for an average of 73 BS4+ Str 8 Ap-3 D3 dmg shots per turn, and a combined wound total of 126 wounds, all of which can be Deffskulls giving you a reroll to hit and to wound with every gun.
The Stompa is garbage. No amount of army building or stratagems will change that.
Well, Deathskullz on KMKs (18 max though) may wind up being broken as feth. That doesn't have a bearing on whether or not the Stompa is or is not where it should be. And honestly I would fully expect that to be eratta'd into being one reroll per datasheet selection.
And it highlights that an Armiger can drag down one KMK per round of shooting (6 wounds) where as the Stompa takes less than half that and really doesn't care.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Hmm... the Mek Shakk comes with the Speed Freeks terrain.
That's nice.
Indeed. I was worried that I'd have to get it through eBay. Good thing I never gave into the initial urge to preorder Speed Freeks.
Yup, agreed, it's good to get the terrain without two buggies I'm not fussed about and bikes I already have plenty of(or overpriced ebay hawkers). One Mek Shakk, one Wartrike, and one Snazzwagon will do me, all as conversion fodder for GorkaMorka. I was tempted by the Squigbuggy, but I wasn't hugely enamoured of the stock appearance and looking at the sprues there's not much room for alterations.
MajorWesJanson wrote: I really like the new vehicles, but them being monobuilds is a major missed opportunity. Would have been great if they were designed to swap parts with the trukk and battlewagon, or if the scrap jet was able to swap over parts with the dakkajet.
it's still possible that this is the case ... wheels look like they can fit on multiple kits, by a quick look at the sprues ...
I did not look at the scrap jet sprue though ... are you sure it's not compatible with the dakkajet?
then, we can always cut and glue pieces the way we like right
MajorWesJanson wrote: I really like the new vehicles, but them being monobuilds is a major missed opportunity. Would have been great if they were designed to swap parts with the trukk and battlewagon, or if the scrap jet was able to swap over parts with the dakkajet.
it's still possible that this is the case ... wheels look like they can fit on multiple kits, by a quick look at the sprues ...
I did not look at the scrap jet sprue though ... are you sure it's not compatible with the dakkajet?
then, we can always cut and glue pieces the way we like right
MajorWesJanson wrote: I really like the new vehicles, but them being monobuilds is a major missed opportunity. Would have been great if they were designed to swap parts with the trukk and battlewagon, or if the scrap jet was able to swap over parts with the dakkajet.
it's still possible that this is the case ... wheels look like they can fit on multiple kits, by a quick look at the sprues ...
I did not look at the scrap jet sprue though ... are you sure it's not compatible with the dakkajet?
then, we can always cut and glue pieces the way we like right
That's my thought. Are we orks, or are we ORKS?
If the pieces don't fit, make em fit!
Nah, if the pieces don't fit ... gits dont carez about fit!!!
A) They expect all the stratagems / KFF / repairs in measuring the worth of a unit.
- While typically I'd say this is a bad idea a KFF on a model with 40 wounds adds something like 20% durability (depending what is shooting it).
Stompa even with KFF isn't survivable enough. Knights have 5++ as well and they have way more points per points.
I almost feel like A is the reason (and maybe a little C), because you could see the though process for them on using More Dakka and a Mek Shop to run 18 shots exploding on 5s. And since it doesn't degrade on BS it is ok to sit back and get pummeled and repair.
That mek shop actually reduces number of shots you make so why would you use it? 2 turns of shooting>1 turn of shooting. Especially as enemy has quaranteed 1 turn and often enough 2 turns to shoot and stompa isn't even quaranteed to survive 1 round of shooting nevermind 2(my current track record is 3 outings, 2 times one turned. 1 time it at least survived with 4 turns but being locked in combat next to table edge couldn't fall out of combat and shoot anyway! At least I got to shoot one time all the time as even games where I went 2nd it came from reserve so was quaranteed 1 round of shooting...Resulting in less than handful tau shield drones and like 7-8 wounds to contemptor dreadnought). You do not want to waste turn shooting because you might have given up your only chance of shooting! And even if not you shoot less than you would have shooting 2 turns.
in the images posted earlier the wazbom jet has its own uniquely named kmk. this just happened to the morkanaut where GW renamed the weapon and gave it more shots. its highly likely the new kmk and the way the kff works now is the reason the wazbom went up in pts (the morkanaut going down in PL might be GW admitting it was just a little too expensive...possibly).
geargutz wrote: in the images posted earlier the wazbom jet has its own uniquely named kmk. this just happened to the morkanaut where GW renamed the weapon and gave it more shots. its highly likely the new kmk and the way the kff works now is the reason the wazbom went up in pts (the morkanaut going down in PL might be GW admitting it was just a little too expensive...possibly).
It's not a new name, it's the same name of the index version of its base guns before you can swap them out to tellyporta blastas
Yes, it's simply up I think 16 points fom the Index with identical gear. That does not mean the profiles are the same though. It's weapons are unique enough where they could've goten a big boost without skewing other units.
We should know in a few hours with codex previews going up on youtube
Lol at this topic. It's devolved into a few general factions something like this;
Non-Ork players - 'I don't play Orks, but wow they look super strong! Look at those stratagems! Those relics and Warlord Traits! Amazing!'
Mixed faction players (including Orks) - 'Orks look really strong, of course we don't have enough information to judge them perfectly but GW seem to know what they're doing and we should trust them. I'm sure there's reasons for the nerfs that we're just not seeing yet. Except the Stompa. We can all agree the Stompa is garbage. Chapter Approved will fix everything because all of those severely undercosted units will increase in price. Just like last CA.'
Ork players - 'Almost everything we have seen so far points to GW still not understanding Ork gameplay and this concerns me. It seems they still put too much value in cqc units with no invulnerable in cqc. So far there have been more points increases than points decreases some of which are on units that were overcosted to begin with. Why are we the only faction to pay for traits on our basic troop? Why are people telling me that suboptimal units are somehow incredible with stratagems and traits? It seems that my fears around GW not understanding the army are coming true and that sucks after such a long wait for full rules.'
I can't wait for the codex reviews to drop. We'll see where Orks stand but as of now we look like the only faction to get an overall nerf out of a codex release. Stratagems and traits are not enough to make a unit as bad as Warbikes good. The same goes for any other bad unit in the Dex. Let's see what the reviews say.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Lol at this topic. It's devolved into a few general factions something like this;
Non-Ork players - 'I don't play Orks, but wow they look super strong! Look at those stratagems! Those relics and Warlord Traits! Amazing!'
Mixed faction players (including Orks) - 'Orks look really strong, of course we don't have enough information to judge them perfectly but GW seem to know what they're doing and we should trust them. I'm sure there's reasons for the nerfs that we're just not seeing yet. Except the Stompa. We can all agree the Stompa is garbage. Chapter Approved will fix everything because all of those severely undercosted units will increase in price. Just like last CA.'
Ork players - 'Almost everything we have seen so far points to GW still not understanding Ork gameplay and this concerns me. It seems they still put too much value in cqc units with no invulnerable in cqc. So far there have been more points increases than points decreases some of which are on units that were overcosted to begin with. Why are we the only faction to pay for traits on our basic troop? Why are people telling me that suboptimal units are somehow incredible with stratagems and traits? It seems that my fears around GW not understanding the army are coming true and that sucks after such a long wait for full rules.'
I can't wait for the codex reviews to drop. We'll see where Orks stand but as of now we look like the only faction to get an overall nerf out of a codex release. Stratagems and traits are not enough to make a unit as bad as Warbikes good. The same goes for any other bad unit in the Dex. Let's see what the reviews say.
Not sure this is how I would have split it ... maybe I would have done it this way:
Casual players
Semi-competitive players
Competitive players
Should be same time with codex preorder so in few hours when preorders start rolling out in europe(much later in US due to timezones). At least Finland has just speed freak and I think German is hour later than Finland.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Lol at this topic. It's devolved into a few general factions something like this;
Non-Ork players - 'I don't play Orks, but wow they look super strong! Look at those stratagems! Those relics and Warlord Traits! Amazing!'
Mixed faction players (including Orks) - 'Orks look really strong, of course we don't have enough information to judge them perfectly but GW seem to know what they're doing and we should trust them. I'm sure there's reasons for the nerfs that we're just not seeing yet. Except the Stompa. We can all agree the Stompa is garbage. Chapter Approved will fix everything because all of those severely undercosted units will increase in price. Just like last CA.'
Ork players - 'Almost everything we have seen so far points to GW still not understanding Ork gameplay and this concerns me. It seems they still put too much value in cqc units with no invulnerable in cqc. So far there have been more points increases than points decreases some of which are on units that were overcosted to begin with. Why are we the only faction to pay for traits on our basic troop? Why are people telling me that suboptimal units are somehow incredible with stratagems and traits? It seems that my fears around GW not understanding the army are coming true and that sucks after such a long wait for full rules.'
I can't wait for the codex reviews to drop. We'll see where Orks stand but as of now we look like the only faction to get an overall nerf out of a codex release. Stratagems and traits are not enough to make a unit as bad as Warbikes good. The same goes for any other bad unit in the Dex. Let's see what the reviews say.
Heh. . . was going to comment how I am going to be a new ork player and am excited to learn and grow this faction and you steal my comment with more elegance. Curse you
Big mek in MA with KFF is safe. Even if big mek with KFF is reduced to index only MA version is still available though would need hefty point drop to be even close to worth it and due to low speed STILL is bad so you will see regular big meks with KFF used. Codex or not they are still in index.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Lol at this topic. It's devolved into a few general factions something like this;
Non-Ork players - 'I don't play Orks, but wow they look super strong! Look at those stratagems! Those relics and Warlord Traits! Amazing!'
Mixed faction players (including Orks) - 'Orks look really strong, of course we don't have enough information to judge them perfectly but GW seem to know what they're doing and we should trust them. I'm sure there's reasons for the nerfs that we're just not seeing yet. Except the Stompa. We can all agree the Stompa is garbage. Chapter Approved will fix everything because all of those severely undercosted units will increase in price. Just like last CA.'
Ork players - 'Almost everything we have seen so far points to GW still not understanding Ork gameplay and this concerns me. It seems they still put too much value in cqc units with no invulnerable in cqc. So far there have been more points increases than points decreases some of which are on units that were overcosted to begin with. Why are we the only faction to pay for traits on our basic troop? Why are people telling me that suboptimal units are somehow incredible with stratagems and traits? It seems that my fears around GW not understanding the army are coming true and that sucks after such a long wait for full rules.'
I can't wait for the codex reviews to drop. We'll see where Orks stand but as of now we look like the only faction to get an overall nerf out of a codex release. Stratagems and traits are not enough to make a unit as bad as Warbikes good. The same goes for any other bad unit in the Dex. Let's see what the reviews say.
I'm more in the boat of "everybody has lost their minds, their is no point in discussing anything".
There are so many changes to profiles and rules our french friend had no idea about that there is almost no way to make educated guesses about anything - well except that the stompa and the mek shop suck
You can basically merge all three groups into a single one - a lot of people jumping to conclusions and hyperbole, either positive or negative.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Lol at this topic. It's devolved into a few general factions something like this;
Non-Ork players - 'I don't play Orks, but wow they look super strong! Look at those stratagems! Those relics and Warlord Traits! Amazing!'
Mixed faction players (including Orks) - 'Orks look really strong, of course we don't have enough information to judge them perfectly but GW seem to know what they're doing and we should trust them. I'm sure there's reasons for the nerfs that we're just not seeing yet. Except the Stompa. We can all agree the Stompa is garbage. Chapter Approved will fix everything because all of those severely undercosted units will increase in price. Just like last CA.'
Ork players - 'Almost everything we have seen so far points to GW still not understanding Ork gameplay and this concerns me. It seems they still put too much value in cqc units with no invulnerable in cqc. So far there have been more points increases than points decreases some of which are on units that were overcosted to begin with. Why are we the only faction to pay for traits on our basic troop? Why are people telling me that suboptimal units are somehow incredible with stratagems and traits? It seems that my fears around GW not understanding the army are coming true and that sucks after such a long wait for full rules.'
I can't wait for the codex reviews to drop. We'll see where Orks stand but as of now we look like the only faction to get an overall nerf out of a codex release. Stratagems and traits are not enough to make a unit as bad as Warbikes good. The same goes for any other bad unit in the Dex. Let's see what the reviews say.
Orks were not the only ones to receive a nerf with their codex, there was other faction that suffered the same fate...
Well won't be preordering anything but that's because I buy my stuff from FLGS. a) I play there b) 10% off. No brainer with that 2 combo(will go to next monday though as I'm 150km out of store that weekend)
Codex+datacards is obvious choice. Won't be buying any bikes as such but am pondering 2 of the new HQ. About only one that feels like could be worth it but...That's enough to buy more or less warlord titan for AT in much more fun game. I do have 12k orks so do I need new models anyway. Okay for competive yes but orks aren't looking like being competive anyway
I've saved up for this release for quite a while so I got all the buggies I really like as models and if the rules turn out to be underwhelming then it's not the biggest deal in the world. I f they are units I feel like I'd field a lot maybe I'll buy a few more.
The nose drill is (as we already knew) S+2 AP-2 Dd3
It also has the spiked ram, so when charging deal d3 mortal wounds on a 4+
M10" feels slow for what is a downed airplane but I am happy that it's S6 base so the drill goes up to S8
Edit: They mention that the wing missiles will lock onto enemy vehicles and hits at BS4+, on the stream yesterday they indicated all guns did that. Hmm, we'll know soon I guess
Automatically Appended Next Post: Plenty of ork stuff up now:
=(
Still, I'm glad to see the race with the best teleportin' teknology (albeit least controllable) finally get something that can well, teleport.
EDIT: Wait a moment... I'm not seeing a "one use only" condition.
Does this mean we can use it multiple times during deployment? Based on other stratagems, I'm leaning towards... yes?
I believe you would be able to use it as many times as you have CP for, since it’s a before deployment stratagem
It's a during deployment stratagem. Don't know if that makes any difference though.
Watching the video and I'm very disappointed so far... many if the units we had problems with are exsactly the same snd haven't gone down in points (lootas being a big one). We lost half our hq options with the ones we have left all going up in value... they talk about everything going down but from what I've seen most of it has gone up when it didn't need to at all.
They stopped making that model for no reason whatsoever when the new models were released in 7th.
They probably wanted to force orks to buy the MA model back then, the entire ork release at that time was focused on making ork players buy more models, no matter how many they already had.
The evil sunz move again strat is 1CP and they can move again after shooting, but can't charge. So it's for jumping that trukk of tankbustas out of LoS after shooting and stuff like that
Of course there isn't. GW don't sell a mini of a non-SAG/non-Mega Big Mek.
I don't understand though, I totally have a finecast Big Mek with KFF that is not in MA.
They USED to sell. Go and find that model on shop NOW. That's the criteria GW uses what to include in codex and what to leave on index to ensure players buy 2 books. What they sell in store NOW.
Especially when you ignore the 3 free rerolls they get each simply by painting the model blue.
SO good.
)
