Hey Dakka, quick rules question.

I'm very new to Fantasy and noticed a "discrepancy" regarding Killing Blow and the Ethereal special rules:

The Ethereal special rules mean that you cannot be wounded by mundane weapons, however, the Killing Blow special rule states that the enemy model is "slain instantly" on the To Wound roll of a '6'.

As far as I understand it, "slain instantly" does not mean that the model suffers a wound and therefore, Ethereal wouldn't protect you from it. Simmilarly, Just because you technically cannot wound it, does not prevent you from rolling To Wound with your attacks. Therefore, would it not be the case that any Killing Blow attack would bypass the Ethereal special rule?

Thanks Dakka,

Iranna.

Ethereal states you cannot be wounded by mundane weapons. *Shrug* I presume they cannot wound them even on killing blow.

 LordHamshire wrote:
Ethereal implies you can never be hit by mundane weapons, therefore there is no roll to wound. No chance for killing blow.

As far as I can see, the Ethereal rule only states that they may only be wounded by "spells, magical attacks, magic weapons or effects". Nothing there to say that you don't roll To Hit and To Wound as normal, only that mundane weapons cannot wound them.

Iranna.

Yeah I reread it, I was wrong, I edited my statement.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you don't roll to wound, there is no chance to get killing blow. You cannot wound. (I think.)

I had argued this before. It is ambiguous. There is nothing stopping you from rolling to Wound against an Ethereal. It just won't succeed unless you've got a magic weapon. So it's a time savings. But it doesn't say "don't roll." Therefore, you could still roll a 6 and insta-kill. If you rolled a 1-5 absolutely nothing would happen.

Anyway, I'm not dead set on it. But it's one way of looking at it.

I don't have my rulebook at hand....
But if the weapon is not magical it cannot damage ethereal models. So the model with killing blow would have to have a magic weapon.
How are the rules written for ethereal and for killing blow?

I'm taking part here even though I think its a stretch to try and apply killing blow. And in my opinion is just bad form. Most people probably know what the intent of ethereal is.
When we start rules lawyering too much we get a rulebook that is too longboring and inflexible.

We had the same discussion on a mailing list and couldn't come to a satisfactory conclusion as there's no definition in the BRB of "damaging" something
if it's "damaging = causing a wound" then you can KB an ethereal
if it's "damaging = causing a wound or harming in any way, including -remove as a casualty-" then you can't KB an ethereal
Not clear cut rules wise, even if it's very clear fluff-wise

a reind of mine and I were discussing this and he came across this. I intend to look through my book when I get home and try to disrepute it but he puts a compelling arguement forward:

BRB p.44 Instant Kills

ETHEREAL . BRB p.72

KILLING BLOW BRB p.51

REMOVE CASUALTIES With saving throws made or failed, you now need to remove the slain. Close combat casualties are removed in the same way as shooting ones.... I wanted to outline these in this specific order to reach the following logical conclusions: The first rule states that some rules cause instant kills and do not inflict wounds.

Ethereals are immune to non-magical wound generators.

As Killing Blow is not causing wounds as explained in the first bullet point above, Ethereal does not get around the Killing Blow effect. KILLING BLOW states that it "slays" an opponent. REMOVE CASUALTIES ties the phrase "slain" (past tense of "slay" to the phrase "close combat casualties". "Casualties" is also explicitly stated in the first rule above for "Instant Kills", thus reaffirming that KILLING BLOW falls under the aegis of the "Instant Kills" rule. Killing Blow removes casualties without causing wounds if the target fails to make a ward save. Ergo, Ethereal does not ignore Killing Blow.

source:

http://z4.invisionfree.com/Khemri/index.php?s=c8bbf6a4880f17d61b7e2bf62765e038&showtopic=13609&st=50
Tomb Kings of Khemri Forum -> Killing blow vs ethereal
z4.invisionfree.com



I've removed his direct quotes of the rulebook to conform to forum rules.

I agree with him to an extent, I think he is correct, howerver I don't think that it was intended. (although I'm happy enough to be prooven wrong)

as I said I will be trying to pick this arguement apart later, but its a very well presented arguement for KB to work.

Eh, put me under the 'no, killing blow does not bypass ethereal' column.

Not the BRB, but from my E-VC book: (I don't mean to not quote the BRB, I just don't have it on hand.)

Ethereal- "Conversly, Ethereal creatures can only be wounded by spells, magical attacks and magical weapons or effects."

Killing blow- "If a model with the Killing Blow special rule rolls a 6 to wound in close combat, he automatically slays his opponent..."

My interpretation is that Ethereal creatures can only be wounded by:
-Spells
-Magical Attacks
-Magical Weapons
-Magical Effects

I see where people could point to 'effects.' at the end of the Ethereal line, but then we'd have to define effects and whether or not special rules are effects. I realize language may be a bit shaky but I feel intent is quite clear.

Reads that it should work, despite the counter-intuitiveness.

Killing Blow does not cause a wound to be ignored.

 jmsincla wrote:
Ethereal- "Conversly, Ethereal creatures can only be wounded by spells, magical attacks and magical weapons or effects."

Killing blow- "If a model with the Killing Blow special rule rolls a 6 to wound in close combat, he automatically slays his opponent..."

Slay isn't wound. Roll to wound, successful wound are specific game terms and functions. Kind of like this:

1. Roll to hit
2. If successful, continue
3. Roll to wound
4. If successful
5. Roll save(s)
6. If unsuccessful, continue

I'M ETHEREAL, NYAH NYAH NYAH, DON'T CONTINUE

7. Target takes a wound


I mean it's kind of funny, but there's nothing in Ethereal that says stop at 1,2,3,4, etc. I.e., you could even make them roll their armor saves/ward/regen even though there is no point. Even if Ethereal doesn't crop up here, it would be after #3. You can hit stuff that is Ethereal, right (nothing says you can't)? So you can roll to hit on them. Likewise, killing blow never reaches #4 above. It short circuits on 3 and Ethereal wouldn't really kick in from what I see in RAW, until at the very earliest #4. If someone fails to wound, Ethereal doesn't do anything.

Anyway, you're generally going to not do this because it's a huge waste of time rolling against stuff you can't hurt. Only KB makes it worth questioning.

If the weapon with Killing Blow is mundane, it cannot hurt an Etheral Model because the weapon is mundane and hence cannot harm the Ethereal model in any way.

If the weapon with Killing Blow is magical, then Killing Blow works as normal on the Ethereal model (presuming it's not a Monster etc.)

 The Shadow wrote:
it cannot hurt an Etheral Model because the weapon is mundane and hence cannot harm the Ethereal model in any way.

This is not what Etherial states.

First off, "harm" is not a game term. Second off, even if it was, it is never used in any way in regards to the Ethereal rule. So you're basically just making stuff up.

Like I can say Killing Blow slaughterizes anything regardless of anything except model type and ward save. But instead of rewriting the rules, we can just use what is printed.

"Conversely, Ethereal creatures can only be WOUNDED by...magical weapons..."

That's what the BRB says. *Emphasis added*

 kirsanth wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:
it cannot hurt an Etheral Model because the weapon is mundane and hence cannot harm the Ethereal model in any way.

This is not what Etherial states.

Not exactly of course, I was summarising,

To cite in full, Ethereal states that: "Ethereal creatures can only be wounded by spells, magical attacks and magic weapons or effects." Hence, a mundane weapon (i.e. one that is not magical) cannot wound an Ethereal model, because it is not magical, irrespective of any special rules it has, such as Killing Blow, Poisoned Attacks or Flaming Attacks, for example.

Killing blow activating does not cause a wound.

 The Shadow wrote:

 kirsanth wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:
it cannot hurt an Etheral Model because the weapon is mundane and hence cannot harm the Ethereal model in any way.

This is not what Etherial states.

Not exactly of course, I was summarising,

To cite in full, Ethereal states that: "Ethereal creatures can only be wounded by spells, magical attacks and magic weapons or effects." Hence, a mundane weapon (i.e. one that is not magical) cannot wound an Ethereal model, because it is not magical, irrespective of any special rules it has, such as Killing Blow, Poisoned Attacks or Flaming Attacks, for example.

Find where killing blow causes a wound.

Ethereal creatures can only be wounded by spells, magical attacks and magic weapons or "effects", Kiling blow is an effect that accures when you roll a 6 to wound, As such Killing blow would in deed kill an etherial model. so as other have said, If a model has KB/HKB, roll to hit as normal, roll to wound, 1-5 normal Mondane wound noting happens, roll a 6, and you have an Wound with the Killing Blow "Effect", As such a etheral may make a ward save or is removed.

You're missing the point. It's not a wound. Killing Blow could be labeled as a mundane attack, non-magic spell, and non-magic effect, that's not what is being disputed. It is the fact that Ethereal protects against being wounded and KB slays. Those words aren't the same.

Killing Blow is a Special Rule, just like Ethereal. A unit has it, period. It doesn't "occur" on a 6. You always have it. Just like Ethereal doesn't cease to exist just because someone has a magic weapon.

cawizkid wrote:
Ethereal creatures can only be wounded by spells, magical attacks and magic weapons or "effects", Kiling blow is an effect that accures when you roll a 6 to wound, As such Killing blow would in deed kill an etherial model. so as other have said, If a model has KB/HKB, roll to hit as normal, roll to wound, 1-5 normal Mondane wound noting happens, roll a 6, and you have an Wound with the Killing Blow "Effect", As such a etheral may make a ward save or is removed.

Your emphasising effects out of context.

It should be "and MAGIC items and effects"

The items and effects have to be magic, as per proper usage of the english language.

Eihnlazer wrote:

cawizkid wrote:
Ethereal creatures can only be wounded by spells, magical attacks and magic weapons or "effects", Kiling blow is an effect that accures when you roll a 6 to wound, As such Killing blow would in deed kill an etherial model. so as other have said, If a model has KB/HKB, roll to hit as normal, roll to wound, 1-5 normal Mondane wound noting happens, roll a 6, and you have an Wound with the Killing Blow "Effect", As such a etheral may make a ward save or is removed.

Your emphasising effects out of context.

It should be "and MAGIC items and effects"

The items and effects have to be magic, as per proper usage of the english language.

RAW does not say "and" Effects, It says "or" effects. It does not say Magical Effects. all other are clearly Writen as Wounds by Spells, "Magical" Attacks and "Magical" Weapons "or" "Effects", not Magical Effects, They specifically put magic infront of everything else related as Spells are buy the BRB magical.

@Duke, KB is a special Rule that Effects Dice rolls of 6 to wound, It does not effect any other rolled number to wound. Just As Poison is an effect that is 6 to Hit. not 1-5. (Unless modified)

Well, it's always dangerous outlining GW sentences. But...looking at my reed-kellog diagrammer, effects is it's own clause without a modifier. So ANY effect could affect them. I.e., it goes:

Ethereal creatures | wounded by

--spells magic this that other

--OR effects

There is no modifier for effects. So if you really want to go that route, any "effect" (whatever that is) in the game can wound them. Is swinging a mundane sword an effect? I have no idea as it is not defined anywhere in the BRB.

Killing Blow is a Special Rule. Special Rules are game terms. If something says it is immune to KB, fine. Or immune to wounding, fine. Those are game terms. So is armor save. The text of KB is what KB is. When you roll a 6 on to-wound, nowhere does it say I'M NOW AN EFFECT-->SLAY! It is merely the text of the Special Rule.

So, if Killing Blow does not cause a wound.....then why do you get a ward save?

Because it says you do in the special rule. If it said you get a regen save you would too. If it said you get to make an init save it still wouldn't make it a wound.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:

 kirsanth wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:
it cannot hurt an Etheral Model because the weapon is mundane and hence cannot harm the Ethereal model in any way.

This is not what Etherial states.

Not exactly of course, I was summarising,

To cite in full, Ethereal states that: "Ethereal creatures can only be wounded by spells, magical attacks and magic weapons or effects." Hence, a mundane weapon (i.e. one that is not magical) cannot wound an Ethereal model, because it is not magical, irrespective of any special rules it has, such as Killing Blow, Poisoned Attacks or Flaming Attacks, for example.

Find where killing blow causes a wound.

Killing Blow rolls to wound. Ethereal units cannot be wounded by mundane items. I guess there is the smallest fragment of an argument that because KB does not specifically say "causes a wound", you could argue KB negates Steadfast. However, I think it's fairly clear that "rolling to wound" is you trying to cause wounds. The rules aren't going to cover every single niggle in the entire game mechanics, you need to employ a little common sense. I see where you, and the others, are coming from, and it's a fair point, but I highly, highly doubt it is correct.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:

 kirsanth wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:
it cannot hurt an Etheral Model because the weapon is mundane and hence cannot harm the Ethereal model in any way.

This is not what Etherial states.

Not exactly of course, I was summarising,

To cite in full, Ethereal states that: "Ethereal creatures can only be wounded by spells, magical attacks and magic weapons or effects." Hence, a mundane weapon (i.e. one that is not magical) cannot wound an Ethereal model, because it is not magical, irrespective of any special rules it has, such as Killing Blow, Poisoned Attacks or Flaming Attacks, for example.

Find where killing blow causes a wound.

Ethereal reads......"..only be wounded..and magic weapons or effects."
Grammatically, 'or' is used to replace the word it follows. That word being weapons, to shorten the writing rather than writing...'...magic weapons or magic effects.'
Another example
'or '
presents an alternative item or idea ("Every day they gamble or they smoke.")

Killing blow states .'..rolls a six to wound in close combat he automatically slays..
It does not say when rolling a six you slay your opponent.
You cannot cause a wound to roll the six.
You must have a magic weapon to get to the point of rolling to wound.
Just as poison attacks you must roll to hit for poison to work and be able to roll the 6. If you need a 7 your poison will not work.

 Peasant wrote:

You must have a magic weapon to get to the point of rolling to wound.
Just as poison attacks you must roll to hit for poison to work and be able to roll the 6. If you need a 7 your poison will not work.

Nowhere does Ethereal say that it stops you from rolling. To hit or to wound. Only the results of a successful wound are blocked.

For instance, if there was a Special Rule that took effect on HIT, regardless of wound, would you still be allowed to use it even if the owner was non-magical? Like if you're hit you're forced to take a panic test. I know some war machines can do that, but pretend it's just some kind of monster. Would some unseen force stop the monster? Of course not. They could attack and hit and force the test, even if they couldn't wound. Another question, what about a giant? What if a giant walks up to some ghosts and squashes one? No wound table is rolled on, no wound is given, "the model is removed as a casualty." Giants certainly aren't magic.

The rules for poison are clearly stated under the special rule itself. If you need a 7 it is lost. Not only that but if you need a 10+ to hit it says it is impossible and the shots are lost. They put that specifically in Poison but no similar language exists for KB.

DukeRustfield wrote:

 Peasant wrote:

You must have a magic weapon to get to the point of rolling to wound.
Just as poison attacks you must roll to hit for poison to work and be able to roll the 6. If you need a 7 your poison will not work.

Nowhere does Ethereal say that it stops you from rolling. To hit or to wound. Only the results of a successful wound are blocked.

For instance, if there was a Special Rule that took effect on HIT, regardless of wound, would you still be allowed to use it even if the owner was non-magical? Like if you're hit you're forced to take a panic test. I know some war machines can do that, but pretend it's just some kind of monster. Would some unseen force stop the monster? Of course not. They could attack and hit and force the test, even if they couldn't wound. Another question, what about a giant? What if a giant walks up to some ghosts and squashes one? No wound table is rolled on, no wound is given, "the model is removed as a casualty." Giants certainly aren't magic.

The rules for poison are clearly stated under the special rule itself. If you need a 7 it is lost. Not only that but if you need a 10+ to hit it says it is impossible and the shots are lost. They put that specifically in Poison but no similar language exists for KB.

To an extent you are correct..
It does not stop you from rolling. "to hit or to wound". But you are wasting your time. Again..it says '...rolls a six to wound..." not when you roll a six. without the magic weapon you never get to the other stages.

As for the second part...no.
You must posess magic to effect ethereal creatures.
Giants cannot do anything to ethereal creatures because they are not magical.
That is why some weapons and other effects are listed as magical.
The rule for ethereal specifically states magic.

The problem here is that the attempted focus has shifted to .."..to wound.." rather than the more important part which is .."magical"

You are correct again with poison, from the other side really.
Ethereal gives you the specific requirement of magic.
Killing blow gives you the requirement to roll a 6 to wound.
Neither give you direction to do anything else.

As for giants, you're clearly wrong there. At least in RAW. There isn't even a hint of wording in either set of rules, Giants or Ethereal, that would block a giant from smushing or eating or pants-shoving a ghost.

The problem here is that the attempted focus has shifted to .."..to wound.." rather than the more important part which is .."magical"

It's one sentence. There is no focus shift. They are inextricably tied together. No magic, no wound. KB doesn't wound. Giants don't wound--if they roll the version to take X wounds, that would indeed be stopped. It doesn't matter if they are magic or not if they aren't wounding.

If it said harmed, injured or any other such catch-all term, then it would stop it. But they used the game term "wounded." The Lore of Light does extra damage to units that are Undead. That doesn't mean not dead and removed from play (i.e., anyone you are targeting). It is a game term. If they wanted to say harmed/injured/scratched/annoyed they could (should) have written that.

You need eggs to make a cake. Those two nouns are connected. If someone is making pie it's irrelevant if they have eggs. Actually, I don't know how to bake, but you get the idea.

DukeRustfield wrote:
As for giants, you're clearly wrong there. At least in RAW. There isn't even a hint of wording in either set of rules, Giants or Ethereal, that would block a giant from smushing or eating or pants-shoving a ghost.

The problem here is that the attempted focus has shifted to .."..to wound.." rather than the more important part which is .."magical"

It's one sentence. There is no focus shift. They are inextricably tied together. No magic, no wound. KB doesn't wound. Giants don't wound--if they roll the version to take X wounds, that would indeed be stopped. It doesn't matter if they are magic or not if they aren't wounding.

If it said harmed, injured or any other such catch-all term, then it would stop it. But they used the game term "wounded." The Lore of Light does extra damage to units that are Undead. That doesn't mean not dead and removed from play (i.e., anyone you are targeting). It is a game term. If they wanted to say harmed/injured/scratched/annoyed they could (should) have written that.

You need eggs to make a cake. Those two nouns are connected. If someone is making pie it's irrelevant if they have eggs. Actually, I don't know how to bake, but you get the idea.

Giants roll a chart and cause wounds. No magic, no wounds.
There is a focus shift. you just said " KB doesn't wound". Yet believe that you can ignore the part magical..and then proceed to say that they are linked. Is killing blow magical.?
Magic is obviously required to affect ethereal creatures. No magic No effect.
.
Why do you believe you get to ignore the instructions of killing blow that states "... rolls a six to wound.." ? It is quite obvious that wounding with a 6 is necessary.
Killing blow may not wound but you must wound to cause killing blow.
Killing blows description even states..regardless of the number of wounds...
It also states ' if the attack wounds automatically , then killing blow does not come into play.'
So you must wound the victim.
No magic no wound.

.
Just as rolling to hit with poison..if you don't roll to hit you can't apply poison unless instructed otherwise.
The occasional attack that states removed as a casualty may apply. But I doubt it.
I understand the desire to find other ways to kill ethereal creatures but killing blow is not one of them.

As for the eggs and cake...It is very difficult to make cake without eggs.

 Peasant wrote:
Giants roll a chart and cause wounds.

I don't think you're very familiar with giants.

Magic is obviously required to affect ethereal creatures.

Where does it say affect? Oh, it doesn't. So you're making stuff up. Please stick to what is written.
.

Why do you believe you get to ignore the instructions of killing blow that states "... rolls a six to wound.." ? It is quite obvious that wounding with a 6 is necessary.

Because if you roll a 6, you don't wound. KB takes over and you slay. There is no wound.

It also states ' if the attack wounds automatically , then killing blow does not come into play.'
So you must wound the victim.

Your logic fails. If something wounds automatically, you never get to roll a 6. Or 5. Or anything. You have completely bypassed that table. And since KB relies on you rolling on that table, they had to decide whether you roll an imaginary die for a wound you already caused, automatically KB, or automatically fail KB. They chose the last one.

Just as rolling to hit with poison..if you don't roll to hit you can't apply poison unless instructed otherwise.

Yes, it is stated. It is not stated for KB. And KB is not Poison. The rules of one Special Rule have no effect on another unless stated. Ethereal units aren't Flammable.

Since it is utterly ridiculous that striking harder or at a certain angle lets you kill smoke, light or sound any better, I would prefer a different reading and I think the "to wound" part is important. Rolling to wound comes before KB enters the equation, if only a microsecond.

Now it has been suggested that nothing stops you from rolling to wound but that can be disputed on the basis of the Ethereal rule. It would be much more elegant to interpret the various rules so that you actually need to be eligible to roll, and to check for eligibility before rolling. No magic weapon, spell, and yes, magic effect*, no roll to wound, and no subsequent KB.

* It is very obvious that this can mean both, effect or magic effect. Both are grammatically correct, and we've had the same discussion with monstrous cavalry / cavalry. If one reading makes more sense than the other...you get the gist.

But having a bunch of guys charging down hill with a banner DOES win combat and they do die from Instability or otherwise losing. It's certainly not omnipotent against anything non magic.

If you want to expand fear to non-magic "effects" (whatever those are) then Ethereal can block Fear, Terror, Panic tests, charges, challenges and pretty much anything else in the book.

to-wound is a process, Peasant. Nothing in the Ethereal rule states you do not roll to-wound.

Ethereal models can be slain outright without being wounded.

Nothing in the rules prevents it, and (Heroic) Killing Blow can cause it.

 kirsanth wrote:
Ethereal models can be slain outright without being wounded.

Nothing in the rules prevents it, and (Heroic) Killing Blow can cause it.

If you have magical attacks, yes. As KB & HKB are on the roll to wound and if you cannot wound, then you cannot score a KN/HKB. Just like poisoned shooting not working on 7's or more.

It is nothing like poisoned attacks, and there is not a need to have a magical weapon to kill Ethereals outright - only to wound them.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 kirsanth wrote:
Ethereal models can be slain outright without being wounded.

Nothing in the rules prevents it, and (Heroic) Killing Blow can cause it.

If you have magical attacks, yes. As KB & HKB are on the roll to wound and if you cannot wound, then you cannot score a KN/HKB. Just like poisoned shooting not working on 7's or more.

You can provide a rules quote to back up your assertion that being unable to cause a wound is equal to being unable to roll on the to-wound chart?

Youre lacking one, and given your ENTIRE argument hangs on it, I would suggest finding one.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 kirsanth wrote:
Ethereal models can be slain outright without being wounded.

Nothing in the rules prevents it, and (Heroic) Killing Blow can cause it.

If you have magical attacks, yes. As KB & HKB are on the roll to wound and if you cannot wound, then you cannot score a KN/HKB. Just like poisoned shooting not working on 7's or more.

You can provide a rules quote to back up your assertion that being unable to cause a wound is equal to being unable to roll on the to-wound chart?

Youre lacking one, and given your ENTIRE argument hangs on it, I would suggest finding one.

Both KB and HKB only work on successful rolls to wound, and since models with ethereal cannot be successfully wounded by non magical attacks, neither will work without a magic weapon.

Both KB and HKB only work on successful rolls to wound

No, they work on a roll of 6 to wound. Again, please use the language that is written. It does not say successful. It does not say failed. It says 6. 6 is merely a number. The rule does not make any mention of successfully wounding.

I still don't understand how you can roll a ward save if there isn't a wound to save. Saves only work for wounds, if it isn't a wound, then a ward wouldn't be allowed.

Because the rules state that killing blows can be negated by a successful ward save, maybe?

 thedarkavenger wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 kirsanth wrote:
Ethereal models can be slain outright without being wounded.

Nothing in the rules prevents it, and (Heroic) Killing Blow can cause it.

If you have magical attacks, yes. As KB & HKB are on the roll to wound and if you cannot wound, then you cannot score a KN/HKB. Just like poisoned shooting not working on 7's or more.

You can provide a rules quote to back up your assertion that being unable to cause a wound is equal to being unable to roll on the to-wound chart?

Youre lacking one, and given your ENTIRE argument hangs on it, I would suggest finding one.

Both KB and HKB only work on successful rolls to wound, and since models with ethereal cannot be successfully wounded by non magical attacks, neither will work without a magic weapon.

Please stop inserting words into a rules discussion that dont actually exist in the written rules.

KB requires you to roll a 6 to-wound. Nothing more, and nothing less.

YOu are required to find a RULE, with page and graph, stating that against ethereal models you do not roll to wound. Page and graph, or concede.

Roll a 6 to wound is different from actually wounding.
I've changed my mind in this since the last time it was debated - KB and some giant results don't cause wunds. Kb specifically says that it doesn't cause wounds. So Ethereal doesn't block them by RAW.
I wouldn't play it though, as I think it is silly; occasional houee rules make games happy.

This seems like another case of silly RAW to me as well, seems to be written that way though.

We should have another compilation thread for those things it's been years.

DukeRustfield wrote:

 Peasant wrote:
Giants roll a chart and cause wounds.

I don't think you're very familiar with giants.

Magic is obviously required to affect ethereal creatures.

Where does it say affect? Oh, it doesn't. So you're making stuff up. Please stick to what is written.
.

Why do you believe you get to ignore the instructions of killing blow that states "... rolls a six to wound.." ? It is quite obvious that wounding with a 6 is necessary.

Because if you roll a 6, you don't wound. KB takes over and you slay. There is no wound.

It also states ' if the attack wounds automatically , then killing blow does not come into play.'
So you must wound the victim.

Your logic fails. If something wounds automatically, you never get to roll a 6. Or 5. Or anything. You have completely bypassed that table. And since KB relies on you rolling on that table, they had to decide whether you roll an imaginary die for a wound you already caused, automatically KB, or automatically fail KB. They chose the last one.

Just as rolling to hit with poison..if you don't roll to hit you can't apply poison unless instructed otherwise.

Yes, it is stated. It is not stated for KB. And KB is not Poison. The rules of one Special Rule have no effect on another unless stated. Ethereal units aren't Flammable.

Warning..this is going to get long. Lots to reply to.

Giants...jump up and down..causes 2d6 hits that wound at strength. No magic, no wound
Swing with club..d6 hits on the unit at the giants strength. No magic, no wound.
As I said, I'm up in the air about others that remove as casualties like 'stuff in bag'..but i'd be inclined to say no because no magic involved.

Where does it say affect..it is what it means when the paragraph on Ethereal says 'only be wounded by spells, magical attacks, magic weapons or effects.' No magic no effect.
Stick to what is written... 'MAGIC'

You are right killing blow takes over for the wound you would have caused. No wound, no killing blow

So you're saying killing blow doesn't want you to roll on the imaginary table so they decided they should fail. Right?
But you want to roll on the imaginary table to try and cause a wound that you have been told you can't roll on because you don't have a magic weapon?? That sounds like faulty logic.

What does rolling a 'rolling a 6 to wound' mean then? Sounds to me like it means when you roll a six to wound.
What do you think it means??








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nosferatu1001 wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

 kirsanth wrote:
Ethereal models can be slain outright without being wounded.

Nothing in the rules prevents it, and (Heroic) Killing Blow can cause it.

If you have magical attacks, yes. As KB & HKB are on the roll to wound and if you cannot wound, then you cannot score a KN/HKB. Just like poisoned shooting not working on 7's or more.

You can provide a rules quote to back up your assertion that being unable to cause a wound is equal to being unable to roll on the to-wound chart?

Youre lacking one, and given your ENTIRE argument hangs on it, I would suggest finding one.

Your standard defense is show a rule..
It is under Ethereal...
where it states MAGIC...
Why does everyone choose to ignore the part about magic?
It seems pretty clear that if you don'y have magic the ethereal creature is safe other than combat res.

Why would you do anything if you can't do it. That makes no sense. Rolling to wound when you can't wound is ridiculous.
If you can't charge, why roll charge distance?
Why shoot if you can't hit?
So a hellblaster should roll every turn to see if it misfires right? Even if the target is out of range, because even though they can't reach they could still be trying to shoot and it could misfire. Ridiculous
Just because you can generate an attempt at a positive result does not validate the idea.

Where is your rule written that allows you to ignore the magic portion?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DukeRustfield wrote:

Both KB and HKB only work on successful rolls to wound

No, they work on a roll of 6 to wound. Again, please use the language that is written. It does not say successful. It does not say failed. It says 6. 6 is merely a number. The rule does not make any mention of successfully wounding.

It says a 6 to wound. It does not say on a roll of a 6.
6 is not a number, it is the required roll 'to wound'
A 6 will always wound, s1 vs. t10 will wound on a 6, but to wound ethereal it must be magic.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
@nosferatu- stop telling people to show a rule or concede, or maybe show a rule that lets you bypass the instructions about being magical or concede.

Again, though I doubt it, 'removed as a casualty' may affect the ethereal creatures but killing blow definitely does not unless there is magic involved,

You are right killing blow takes over for the wound you would have caused. No wound, no killing blow

KB has no requirement you did a wound. If you did a wound you would get an armor save. A regen save. You don't. You get a ward save because that is written in the special rule. But it doesn't say it blocks the wound, as there is no wound.

6 is not a number, it is the required roll 'to wound'

No, it's not. If someone with 10 str. attacks someone with 1T they need a 2+ to wound. If they have KB, they slay. They do not wound. If the target has 10 wounds, they don't do one wound. They slay. The target is never wounded. If they have any item/spell that responds on-wound, it would not trigger, because they are not being wounded.

And you're picking and choosing your rules. 6 means something in other rules. As we've seen with Poison, if you roll a 6 but need a 7+ to hit...TOUGH LUCK.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
to-wound is a process, Peasant. Nothing in the Ethereal rule states you do not roll to-wound.

Everything in the Ethereal rule can be interpreted to be a prerequisite for the to-wound roll though - and that would make a lot of sense.

 kirsanth wrote:
Ethereal models can be slain outright without being wounded.

There's no rule like that.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

You can provide a rules quote to back up your assertion that being unable to cause a wound is equal to being unable to roll on the to-wound chart?

Youre lacking one, and given your ENTIRE argument hangs on it, I would suggest finding one.

The lack of a rule is insubstantial when it is about differing interpretations. Your argument that you can roll on the to-wound chart despite certain restrictions seems just as farfetched. You cannot provide any explicit quote either I'm afraid, so what's the fuss about?

DukeRustfield wrote:

You are right killing blow takes over for the wound you would have caused. No wound, no killing blow

KB has no requirement you did a wound. If you did a wound you would get an armor save. A regen save. You don't. You get a ward save because that is written in the special rule. But it doesn't say it blocks the wound, as there is no wound.

6 is not a number, it is the required roll 'to wound'

No, it's not. If someone with 10 str. attacks someone with 1T they need a 2+ to wound. If they have KB, they slay. They do not wound. If the target has 10 wounds, they don't do one wound. They slay. The target is never wounded. If they have any item/spell that responds on-wound, it would not trigger, because they are not being wounded.

And you're picking and choosing your rules. 6 means something in other rules. As we've seen with Poison, if you roll a 6 but need a 7+ to hit...TOUGH LUCK.

You have answered your own question. Read what you typed.
Yes, s10 vs t1 needs a 2+. The number is not arbitrary. You need a 2,3,4,5, or 6. If they have killing blow they slay on a 6 rather than wound.
The description of killing blow even states ..'regardless of the number of wounds on the victims profile'. Why reference wounds?
The description also states 'the ward prevents all damage..' it does not state that the ward save prevents the killing blow.
How do we damage in this game? With wounds.

I am using all of the rules. The rules state the need for magic. Killing blow is in on itself, not magic. If you have killing blow and magic attacks proceed to roll your 6 to wound and slay your opponent.

Peasant wrote:
Your standard defense is show a rule..

Yes, it is useful in a rules debate to actually back up assertions with rules. Something you apparently struggle to understand.

Peasant wrote:It is under Ethereal...
where it states MAGIC...
Why does everyone choose to ignore the part about magic?

We're not, you just seem to not be able to parse that sentence at all correctly. It states they can only be WOUNDED ***BY*** [list of items]

ONE of those items is an "effect".

Killing Blow does not cause a wound. So, given your rule only states they cannot be WOUNDED by anything other than magic, find where they can be protected from being SLAIN.

Anything?

Peasant wrote:It seems pretty clear that if you don'y have magic the ethereal creature is safe other than combat res.

Only through a chronic misreading of the rule could you come to that conclusion.

Peasant wrote:Why would you do anything if you can't do it. That makes no sense.

Indeed, what you wrote makes no sense.

Peasant wrote:Rolling to wound when you can't wound is ridiculous.

Page quote for your assertion? This is a rules debate after all.

Anything?

You are unable to cause a wound, but you still follow the rules which state you roll to-hit, and roll to-wound. Unless you could, possible, FOR ONCE, find a rule that says otherwise?

Other than your assertion that it is rediculous?

Peasant wrote:If you can't charge, why roll charge distance?

Because you have a restriction saying you cannot charge, meaning you have no permission to roll charge distance.

Peasant wrote:Why shoot if you can't hit?

Ooh, you made a mistake there - when you have an effect that triggers. For example (pre 8th) when you were out of range with Skaven snipers, you were still required to roll to-hit in case you misfired.

Peasant wrote:So a hellblaster should roll every turn to see if it misfires right?

No, because you have no declared a shooting attack with it. Basic rules concepts here, that you seem unable to grasp.

Peasant wrote: Even if the target is out of range, because even though they can't reach they could still be trying to shoot and it could misfire. Ridiculous

Yes, your strawman, awful arguments are indeed ridiculous.

Peasant wrote:Just because you can generate an attempt at a positive result does not validate the idea.

Where is your rule written that allows you to ignore the magic portion?

Given in the KB rules, which states it does not cause any wounds.

I am confused, you keep saying a rule about being unable to WOUND an ethereal creature has something to do with an effect that does not cause wounds. IT is a completely ridiculous equating of two entirely different concepts you are doing, and something you are doing with NO RULES BASIS at all.

None.
Nothing
Zip
Zilch
Nada

But then, this isnt the first time.

So, how about - find a rule. Anything. And no, this rule is not contained in a line which talks about WOUNDING. This isnt causing a wound, this is slaying. Two different words, with two different in game definitions

Mike - actually the argument is presented already. You are required, in close combat, to roll to-hit, and then to-wound. Find the line that states you cannot do so against ethereal creatures.

So it IS proven on this side, now the non-KB side have to show some actual rules.

You can think of Ethereal as a 1+ ward save that never fails on a 1. The only exceptions being that they only apply to wounds caused and vs. non-magic attacks.

But to activate, you still need to reach it. Even though you know you're going to block wounds, the ward save itself doesn't stop the enemy from rolling to hit, rolling to wound, taking your armor save, then rolling ward. Because that is the natural steps as laid out in the BRB. We take shortcuts because it's easier.

Ward save doesn't say, "if this can't fail, don't even try." Neither does Ethereal.

In fact, if an Ethereal unit has a Charmed Shield, which can negate the first hit on a roll, it has to try and negate the first hit, MAGIC OR NOT! Which means it can negate a hit that would have ultimately not hurt the user. If a non-magic then magic hit comes in, the Ethereal user doesn't get to ignore the non-magic hit, he has to roll to see if it wastes his shield.

Those are the normal order of operations in the BRB. Nothing says or hints that you no longer carry them out.

P. 68.

Ethereal creaturse can only be wounded by magical attacks, magic weapons or effects.

There you go. Unless you have a magical weapon, KB and HKB are mundane effects, so they wouldn't come into play against ethereal.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
P. 68.

Ethereal creaturse can only be wounded. . .

Yep.

Totally not the discussion going on here, thanks though.

Interesting that the OP even has this and people still think it is news.

Killing blow does not wound.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
P. 68.

Ethereal creaturse can only be wounded by magical attacks, magic weapons or effects.

There you go. Unless you have a magical weapon, KB and HKB are mundane effects, so they wouldn't come into play against ethereal.

Underlined the bit you are failing to read.

Killing Blow does not wound. This has been stated ad nauseum. People repeating arguments relying on wounds being caused should now be considered trolls, as there is no possible way to have missed that line of argument being thoroughly and totally debunked.

Ethereal creatures can only be [wounded] by magical attacks, magic weapons or effects.

Yes. Can Ethereal creatures be made to take panic tests? Can they be subject to Terror? Can they be subject to Stupidity?

None of those are magic. For some reason you all are saying "...cannot be...magic attacks..." makes them immune to every single rule and subrule in the book. It applies to one and only one thing: being wounded. An extremely specific condition in the BRB that we all know. Is Terror being wounded? No, because it does not remove wound(s) from the profile and the special rule doesn't say so. KB likewise does not remove wound(s) from the profile nor does the special rule says so--it says slay.

Even if KB said, "take off one wound, just to piss them off, and then slay them." Ethereal would block the would being removed, but Ethereal does not block slay. It has no wording that says otherwise.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lol, actually, I don't know what Ethereal does to stupidity because of the movement hindrance codicil. So like, forget that part, I don't want to open another can o worms.

Killing blow rules state that ward save can be applied against killing blow.
Instant Kills BRB.44 states that "no saves of any kind" are allowed for instant kills.
Ergo: Killing blow is basically NOT an instant kill because you can apply ward save and you cannot use it to slay etherals because for ward save to be applied there have to be wounds to be saved.
So killing blow is basically "one hit deals all the wounds of target model" NOT "kills without causing wounds".



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also in BRB.4 it says that "if ...a model's ... Wounds are reduced to 0 or less ... it is slain ...."
So to be "slain" your wounds characteristics need to be 0. So by "slaying" Killing Blow is dealing multiple wounds.

You're saying that if something smells like a potato it must be a potato. But potato-scented garbage can smell like potatoes.

A Killing Blow is a Killing Blow. It is nothing more, it is nothing less. Its entire rules are under KB. If another Special Rule says it removes a model on a to-hit roll of 5, that doesn't mean it is KB. It is an entirely new rule. Like all the save-or-die spells are not KB. The old save-or-die weapons are not KB. If they were, they would say KB.

You don't have to work backwards from wounds. Or from any rule. If something, like Hand of Gork or Smoke and Mirrors, moves you somewhere, you move there. You don't have to charge or do Remaining Moves or take Dangerous Terrain tests--unless it tells you to. The entirety of that rule is that rule. Just because normally you have to walk from point A to point B means nothing if it is bypassed.

If something says it is slayed or removed from play, you don't have to go, okay, now his M is 0 and S is 0 and T is 0. Nothing under KB says you do so. If it says so under another rule, that's fine. But another rule isn't KB and KB isn't bound by it.

Major snippage ensuing...

 The Shadow wrote:
you need to employ a little common sense.

You've got to be VERY careful with that. Common sense says that when a ten-ton dinosaur charges into a formation of humans, either the humans get out of the way... and disrupt their formation... or get stomped into crushed cans of tomato paste... and disrupt the formation.

But the rules do NOT reflect that.

However silly it seems to the non-KB crowd (and it is pretty silly), Killing Blow does not cause wounds. Ethereal omly references wounds. There is a disjoint there, which means that Ethereal is irrelevant to Killing Blows.

I came in thinking it was definitely RAW but probably not RAI. I'm on the fence with RAI.

KB is the grand daddy of big moves in WHFB. And I know they got an equivalent in 40K and even like Eternal Warrior to stop it. But WHFB is less pure hard counter than 40K. Everything can beat anything, even if it's not easy. Even pure Ethereal troops can lose in combat rez. I just have a hard time seeing a Necrosphinx with a S10 HKB not being able to hurt a Spirit Host. S10 HKB is like being able to cut a 100 foot Greater Daemon in half, smashing a steam tank and everyone in it flat with one swing, etc. It's a big deal.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Peasant wrote:
Your standard defense is show a rule..

Yes, it is useful in a rules debate to actually back up assertions with rules. Something you apparently struggle to understand.

You sir are a troll. You talk about rules debates, then assume I struggle to understand because I disagree. And then post tireless amounts of cr@p.

Peasant wrote:It is under Ethereal...
where it states MAGIC...
Why does everyone choose to ignore the part about magic?

We're not, you just seem to not be able to parse that sentence at all correctly. It states they can only be WOUNDED ***BY*** [list of items]

ONE of those items is an "effect".

Killing Blow does not cause a wound. So, given your rule only states they cannot be WOUNDED by anything other than magic, find where they can be protected from being SLAIN.

Anything?

Parse the sentence correctly..
No one of those items is '..wounded by..magic weapons or effects.' 'Or' is the conjunction that ties effects to magic. It does not say and effects.
Again how do you do damage to a model when playing this game?
You wound. You remove as a casualty. Slain is only used in killing blow, and when it is, in the killing blow paragraphs it frequently makes reference to wounds.

Peasant wrote:It seems pretty clear that if you don'y have magic the ethereal creature is safe other than combat res.

Only through a chronic misreading of the rule could you come to that conclusion.

troll. As unnecessary a comment as my troll comment.
You said yourself it is safe from wounding.

Peasant wrote:Why would you do anything if you can't do it. That makes no sense.

Indeed, what you wrote makes no sense.

Guess what I should write here...but I'm sure you get the point.

Peasant wrote:Rolling to wound when you can't wound is ridiculous.

Page quote for your assertion? This is a rules debate after all.

Anything?

You are unable to cause a wound, but you still follow the rules which state you roll to-hit, and roll to-wound. Unless you could, possible, FOR ONCE, find a rule that says otherwise?

Other than your assertion that it is rediculous?

Where are your rules? Again calling for them with nothing but troll.
Yes, you are almost there...you roll to wound but you cannot wound without magic. No killing blow.
You said yourself you are unable to cause a wound.
Find a rule that says you do NOT wound for killing blow.
Why does it say when you roll a six to wound and not when you roll a six??
Why does it say regardless of the number of wounds?
Why does it not say removed as a casualty as other instant death does?

Peasant wrote:If you can't charge, why roll charge distance?

Because you have a restriction saying you cannot charge, meaning you have no permission to roll charge distance.

Peasant wrote:Why shoot if you can't hit?

Ooh, you made a mistake there - when you have an effect that triggers. For example (pre 8th) when you were out of range with Skaven snipers, you were still required to roll to-hit in case you misfired.

You have a restriction saying you cannot wound without magic.
Where does it say no wounds are caused?
It does say regardless of how many wounds though.
And we are talking about 8th edition.

Peasant wrote:So a hellblaster should roll every turn to see if it misfires right?

No, because you have no declared a shooting attack with it. Basic rules concepts here, that you seem unable to grasp.

Okay so even though you only want roll 1 dice for your hellblaster you should roll all 3 because you could have misfired if you rolled all 3. Of course you won't do that not because that is negative and as ridiculous as rolling to wound that can't wound.
The only reason you want to roll to wound is to incorrectly create a positive affect on a difficult opponent.
So you tell me one paragraph above about misfiring then say no...hmm. interesting

Peasant wrote: Even if the target is out of range, because even though they can't reach they could still be trying to shoot and it could misfire. Ridiculous

Yes, your strawman, awful arguments are indeed ridiculous.

Do you ever stop.? I'm sure you will cry 'reported' with my responses to all your useless drivel and do a great job with getting this thread shut down.

Peasant wrote:Just because you can generate an attempt at a positive result does not validate the idea.

Where is your rule written that allows you to ignore the magic portion?

Given in the KB rules, which states it does not cause any wounds.

I am confused, you keep saying a rule about being unable to WOUND an ethereal creature has something to do with an effect that does not cause wounds. IT is a completely ridiculous equating of two entirely different concepts you are doing, and something you are doing with NO RULES BASIS at all.

Show me a rule that says it does not wound.
Killing blow does not state that it does not cause wounds. It states that when you roll a six to wound the model is slain outright regardless of the number of wounds.

None.
Nothing
Zip
Zilch
Nada

But then, this isnt the first time.

No, this isn't the first time is it?

So, how about - find a rule. Anything. And no, this rule is not contained in a line which talks about WOUNDING. This isnt causing a wound, this is slaying. Two different words, with two different in game definitions

It.. is... rolling...to...wound..it says rolling to wound.
Find a rule that talks about NOT wounding?
What rule says you do not wound? Why do you roll to wound if not to wound?

Mike - actually the argument is presented already. You are required, in close combat, to roll to-hit, and then to-wound. Find the line that states you cannot do so against ethereal creatures.

So it IS proven on this side, now the non-KB side have to show some actual rules.

You have proven nothing. Show the rule that ignores the roll to wound. You only roll to wound...to wound.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

DukeRustfield wrote:
Ethereal creatures can only be [wounded] by magical attacks, magic weapons or effects.

Yes. Can Ethereal creatures be made to take panic tests? Can they be subject to Terror? Can they be subject to Stupidity?

None of those are magic. For some reason you all are saying "...cannot be...magic attacks..." makes them immune to every single rule and subrule in the book. It applies to one and only one thing: being wounded. An extremely specific condition in the BRB that we all know. Is Terror being wounded? No, because it does not remove wound(s) from the profile and the special rule doesn't say so. KB likewise does not remove wound(s) from the profile nor does the special rule says so--it says slay.

Even if KB said, "take off one wound, just to piss them off, and then slay them." Ethereal would block the would being removed, but Ethereal does not block slay. It has no wording that says otherwise.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lol, actually, I don't know what Ethereal does to stupidity because of the movement hindrance codicil. So like, forget that part, I don't want to open another can o worms.

How about this then...
If killing blow does not wound..what happens when you attack a dragon with your model with killing blow?..you roll a six to wound but you don't wound on a six, you killing blow and slay.(according to those that think it works on ethereal) It says they cannot be slain with a single blow. So you cannot wound on a 6 against monstrous beasts, mosters etc. It never says you only cause a single wound. And you are fighting to say killing blow does not wound on a 6.

Ridiculous idea

KB blow specifically says it doesn't work on unit types X. I'm not sure what you're getting at. You have to read the whole rule, where it says it only works vs. infantry, etc etc.

It doesn't say they cannot be slain with a single blow, it says KB doesn't work on them. The Special Rule has no effect on units not of that type. So you play as if the Special Rule wasn't there.

you are fighting to say killing blow does not wound on a 6.

As I already said, it is irrelevant if it does (though it doesn't). It can do 239482398 wounds. But it also slays. Ethereal blocks only against being wounded. There is no slay protection.

veelckoo wrote:
Also in BRB.4 it says that "if ...a model's ... Wounds are reduced to 0 or less ... it is slain ...."
So to be "slain" your wounds characteristics need to be 0. So by "slaying" Killing Blow is dealing multiple wounds.

DukeRustfield wrote:
As I already said, it is irrelevant if it does (though it doesn't). It can do 239482398 wounds. But it also slays. Ethereal blocks only against being wounded. There is no slay protection.

But there is very clear definition of "slain" as I allready quoted earlier.
And there IS Killing Blow "slain protection" ie. WARD SAVES.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So in your opinion Killing Blows are not counted in combat resolution, after all Killing Blow is just that, it does not say you're wounding your "slaying".
Well combat resolution rules do not say there is bonus for slaiyng anywhere.

 Peasant wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Peasant wrote:
Your standard defense is show a rule..

Yes, it is useful in a rules debate to actually back up assertions with rules. Something you apparently struggle to understand.

You sir are a troll. You talk about rules debates, then assume I struggle to understand because I disagree. And then post tireless amounts of cr@p.

Flawless counterargument

DukeRustfield wrote:
KB blow specifically says it doesn't work on unit types X. I'm not sure what you're getting at. You have to read the whole rule, where it says it only works vs. infantry, etc etc.

It doesn't say they cannot be slain with a single blow, it says KB doesn't work on them. The Special Rule has no effect on units not of that type. So you play as if the Special Rule wasn't there.

you are fighting to say killing blow does not wound on a 6.

As I already said, it is irrelevant if it does (though it doesn't). It can do 239482398 wounds. But it also slays. Ethereal blocks only against being wounded. There is no slay protection.

It really breaks down to process.
1. unit x attacks y
2.what weapon does he strike with? magic, non, halberd (why roll to hit if you can't wound later)
3.what does he need to hit? any bonuses to hit? any special rules on striking?
4.roll to hit
5.what does he need to wound? any special rules to wound? 4+always wounds, wound on toughness (no magic weapon , no wound)
6.roll to wound
7.any special rules after wounding? d6 wounds, toughness test, killing blow.
8.what is you save? What modifiers? -1, -2, 3 killing blows
9.roll saves
10. Do you get a ward?
11. Roll wards.
Do you roll armour saves when you arent wounded? You cannot apply killing blow before the roll to wound because you need the result of the roll. If your weapon is not magical you have no purpose to roll to wound.

It is exactly the same as Pick up and. . . Stuff in a bag. (See: any Giant)

No wound is done, so nothing in Ethereal prevents the effect.

 Peasant wrote:

DukeRustfield wrote:
KB blow specifically says it doesn't work on unit types X. I'm not sure what you're getting at. You have to read the whole rule, where it says it only works vs. infantry, etc etc.

It doesn't say they cannot be slain with a single blow, it says KB doesn't work on them. The Special Rule has no effect on units not of that type. So you play as if the Special Rule wasn't there.

you are fighting to say killing blow does not wound on a 6.

As I already said, it is irrelevant if it does (though it doesn't). It can do 239482398 wounds. But it also slays. Ethereal blocks only against being wounded. There is no slay protection.

It really breaks down to process.
1. unit x attacks y
2.what weapon does he strike with? magic, non, halberd (why roll to hit if you can't wound later)
3.what does he need to hit? any bonuses to hit? any special rules on striking?
4.roll to hit
5.what does he need to wound? any special rules to wound? 4+always wounds, wound on toughness (no magic weapon , no wound)
6.roll to wound
7.any special rules after wounding? d6 wounds, toughness test, killing blow.
You cannot apply killing blow before the roll to wound because you need the result of the roll. If your weapon is not magical you have no purpose to roll to wound.

I quite often agree with you Peasant, but here you are adding your own text. You get the process nearly right, but you add interpretation (such as why bother rolling, check weapon type etc).

The process is:
1) Roll to hit (apply any modifiers)
2) Any effects which trigger on rolling tohit
3) Any effects triggered on a hit
4) Roll to wound
5) Any effects triggered by rolling to wound
6) Any effects triggered by wounds
7) Saves
8) Effects triggeeed by unsaved wounds.

Ethereal comes in at step 6, while KB jumps you out of the sequence at step 5

~_~ this argument was finished long ago.


In order to effect ethereal, you need a "magic weapon or effect".


And yes, because of the way the sentence is worded that means magic weapon or magic effect. Magic is ment to cover both weapon and effect. Its redundant to write it twice.

Eihnlazer wrote:
~_~ this argument was finished long ago.


In order to effect ethereal, you need a "magic weapon or effect".


And yes, because of the way the sentence is worded that means magic weapon or magic effect. Magic is ment to cover both weapon and effect. Its redundant to write it twice.

j
Seriously? Where do you get that "it takes magic to affect ethereal"?
The rule says it takes magic to wound ethereal. That is all. Anything else you claim it says is just you making stuff up.

Since it is only wounding that is affected, things which do not wound are not affected by ethereal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You are correct that the argument has been over for a long time, so far as RAW is concerned. So why are you still arguing the side that lost?...

 veelckoo wrote:

Also in BRB.4 it says that "if ...a model's ... Wounds are reduced to 0 or less ... it is slain ...."
So to be "slain" your wounds characteristics need to be 0. So by "slaying" Killing Blow is dealing multiple wounds.

I'm sorry, but this is meaningless.

There are clear rules for movement and hexes and stopping movement yet Ethereal break those rules. Because Ethereal is its own rule. It trumps those other rules. There are clear rules for close combat, that come WAY before the Special Rules section. To-Hit/To-Wound/Saves/Wound/Dead. Yet Ethereal breaks those rules. Because Ethereal is its own rule.

Killing Blow is a Special Rule. It is under the Special Rules section. Once it's in play, it trumps everything that doesn't specifically address that Special Rule. Just like Ethereal.

Unfortunately, Ethereal blocks wounds. Which KB does not do.

Peasant - yep, your entirely ruleless, straightforward attack on a poster HAS been reported.

YOu failed, entirely, to provide a single rule that states you do not roll to-wound when facing Ethereal Creatures. Not one.

Your "argument" has been refuted (as much as it can be, given you failed to actually provide one) , and you can safely be ignored. Bye

To others able to debate with some semblance of sense - Eihn - Ethereal only talks about WOUNDING them. I.E. Causing Wounds. Something Killing Blow does not do

Find where killing blow causes wounds. When you have done so, page and para.

 veelckoo wrote:

Also in BRB.4 it says that "if ...a model's ... Wounds are reduced to 0 or less ... it is slain ...."
So to be "slain" your wounds characteristics need to be 0. So by "slaying" Killing Blow is dealing multiple wounds.

Oh, and to logic argument this:

model + (0 wounds) = slain

But you're assuming that slain can only have one formula. Such as:

5 +1 = 6

But

4 + 2 = 6
10 - 4 = 6
3 * 2 = 6

Six does not have one and only one formula possible. Slain is achieved however a rule says it is and is not limited by other implementations. 4+2 doesn't care about 10-4.

I quite often agree with you Peasant, but here you are adding your own text. You get the process nearly right, but you add interpretation (such as why bother rolling, check weapon type etc).

The process is:
1) Roll to hit (apply any modifiers)
2) Any effects which trigger on rolling tohit
3) Any effects triggered on a hit
4) Roll to wound
5) Any effects triggered by rolling to wound
6) Any effects triggered by wounds
7) Saves
8) Effects triggeeed by unsaved wounds.

Ethereal comes in at step 6, while KB jumps you out of the sequence at step 5

So really we differ in process as well
In combat I select my targets based on what I can and can't attack or wound. Sometimes I attack weak targets sometimes focus on a character.
Ethereal requires magic so I don't bother if I don't have magic.
According to your example if you have a character with killing blow on a dragon you roll all the dice for him and the dragon correct?
Dispose of the dragons rolls then look for 6's to see if you managed a killing blow. That doesn't make sense
Ethereal comes 1st when deciding valid targets.
You are adding steps 2 and 5. effects work only on successful hits and wounds.
As I have stated before rolling to wound means exactly that..to wound. You are not rolling to killing blow. It does not say on a roll of six. You are hoping to roll a six to wound to trigger killing blow.
After you wound you make armour saves. Killing blow gives you none. You are slain regardless of the number of wounds.
Unless you have a ward.

Ethereal does state you need magic to wound.
Killing blow does not state that it is magic. Killing blow state you must roll to wound. As stated you roll to wound, to wound. There is never any other time you are called on to roll to wound unless you are attempting to wound.

Unfortunately this debate will just go in circles because there is no new information to add for either side.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Peasant - yep, your entirely ruleless, straightforward attack on a poster HAS been reported.

YOu failed, entirely, to provide a single rule that states you do not roll to-wound when facing Ethereal Creatures. Not one.

Your "argument" has been refuted (as much as it can be, given you failed to actually provide one) , and you can safely be ignored. Bye

To others able to debate with some semblance of sense - Eihn - Ethereal only talks about WOUNDING them. I.E. Causing Wounds. Something Killing Blow does not do

Find where killing blow causes wounds. When you have done so, page and para.

I never said you don't roll to wound. I said you cannot wound without magic. Killing blow is not magic. You roll to wound and on a wound roll of 6 you trigger killing blow. If you do not wound with a six you do not killing blow.
example you wound on a 4+ and roll dice.
4, 5, cause a wound and you take your saves.
A six wounds and negates your save. If you have a ward you can save.
If you have no ward or fail it, you are slain regardless of the number of wounds the model has.
Killing blow is an effect caused by wounding. Just like d6/d3 wounds. Just like the items that cause you to take a toughness test.
If you cannot wound a 6 is irrelevant. It does not say on a roll of six
When you have a weapon skill zero, Do you roll your attacks that cannot hit?? No.

You have provided nothing.
Find where killing blow does NOT cause wounds. When you have done so, page and para

Your weapon causes the wound.
Killing blow talks about WOUNDING and WOUNDS through the ENTIRE description.
It does not say roll a six and remove as a casualty.

 Peasant wrote:
Killing blow state you must roll to wound. As stated you roll to wound, to wound. There is never any other time you are called on to roll to wound unless you are attempting to wound.

This is the crux. Though we seem to be saying it over and over. Ethereal protects against non-magic wounds. How do you know when a model is wounded?

When it is hit
Successful to-wound
Fail any saves
WOUND

Ethereal only blocks the last step. That's it. It makes no mention of hits. It makes no mention of to-wound. It makes no mention of saving throws. All it does is stop successful wounds. It doesn't stop unsuccessful wounds, because it doesn't say it does (and what's the point?). To wound you have to follow those steps in order per the BRB, because those are the only rules we have. Ethereal doesn't say to follow a different order, all it does is say that it can't be wounded. You don't know if you're wounded unless you roll a wound. You can shortcut those rules in some circumstances (Stomp, impact hits, etc). Killing Blow is another shortcut. But it doesn't end on wound and the only save you get is ward. That diverges from the normal BRB process.

We understand that it's a whole lot of steps for nothing. If a 5 attack mundane creature attacks, it's awful silly to roll all 5 attacks, stomp, roll to wound, roll to save, and then go "IT DOESN'T MATTER!" But regardless if it's silly, that is what the BRB tells us to do. And, if he has KB it does matter if he rolls a 6. Of course if the mundane creature didn't have KB or any other on-hit abilities, it would be perfectly okay to not roll because absolutely nothing could come from it. But if you were trying to kill time at a tournament (and be a jerk...) technically you could still force all the rolls because, again, nothing says not to. Though I wouldn't recommend it.

Okay just to clear things up for the person who said the reason why they didnt put magic in front of effects because its redundant

quote from pg. 68

"Conversely, Ethereal creatures can only be wounded by spells, magical attacks and magic weapons or effects."

First of all, if that was the case the proper way would be to list it as such, "spells, magical attacks, weapons and effects." The fact they left magical off of effects is due to certain abilities and rules in army books and the BRB that can kill the unit without wounding it.

But as it has been said a million times, the main issue is not that ethereal stops non-magical wounds, but how KB and HKB works. As it is written in the BRB

quote from pg. 72

"If a model with the Killing Blow special rule rolls a 6 to wound in close combat, he automatically slays his opponent - regardless of the number of wounds on the victim's profile. Armour saves and regeneration saves cannot be taken against a killing blow. A ward save can be attempted - if passed, the ward save prevents all damage from the killing blow."

Now the steps for determining KB and HKB is this

1)Striking Order
2)Roll to Hit
3)Roll to Wound
---A) Roll Dice that hit to see if they wound
---B) Consult Chart for wounds
4) Take Saving Throws
---A) Armour Save Roll
---B) Regen / Ward save
5) Remove Casualties
----Wounds go into effect

Now KB and HKB take place at the rolling to wound section, where as their special rule, the wound roll of a 6 basically is discounted because the model is slain, aka DEAD, The ethereal rule doesn't take place until you take the wounds which is after saves. because in the rolling to wound phase, you technically haven't taken any wounds yet, its only until after you do the saving throw phase that you actually take them. This is where i think the confusion on this issue is, misreading the rules. KB is a Effect, not an attack or spell or wound, but an effect that kills a creature outright, regardless of rules, unless that creature is not of the correct type, in which case there is HKB, and of course you get to take a ward save is you have one, because magic.

I just found a bit of an odd question myself. If somebody is given killing blow as an augment spell does it count as 'Magical' attacks? Perhaps i need to re-read the rules on this. I know that spells count as magical attacks so i wonder if killing blow granted by magic spells (like 'buffs') count as magical.

No.

Because you are merely giving a Special Rule. And the special rule isn't magic. If you give stomp it wouldn't be magic. Or impact hits. Only if it was a magic weapon with KB.

To clarify, a six is always a successful wound, in this edition.
There are things that can then cause that wound to be ignored.


None of that matters in the slightest way for this discussion.
Stating or implying otherwise is simply wrong.

DukeRustfield wrote:
I came in thinking it was definitely RAW but probably not RAI. I'm on the fence with RAI.

KB is the grand daddy of big moves in WHFB. And I know they got an equivalent in 40K and even like Eternal Warrior to stop it. But WHFB is less pure hard counter than 40K. Everything can beat anything, even if it's not easy. Even pure Ethereal troops can lose in combat rez. I just have a hard time seeing a Necrosphinx with a S10 HKB not being able to hurt a Spirit Host. S10 HKB is like being able to cut a 100 foot Greater Daemon in half, smashing a steam tank and everyone in it flat with one swing, etc. It's a big deal.

See. I agree raw it works. But rai, I disagree. I don't think they ever intended it to work that way. As I don't see how mundane weapons effect ghosts. They just go through them to no avail. I relate KB to like a "headshot" in FPS. You can headshot everything, but you can't headshot a ghost unless you have a specific weapon that allows them too.

I think they wrot ethereal with the thought that magic would be understood to apply to effects. The problem is, they did it wrong. Because they used magic twice in the sentence it makes it apply only to those. If they rephrased it "magic attacks, weapons, and effects" Or "magic attacks, magic weapons, and magic effects" I'd think KB wouldn't apply.

Have we found in the rules where removing a model on a 6 via killing blow is defined as an effect? I still feel like that's the crux of this argument.

And that's what i said, the fact they left the magic part off of effects, means it can be non-magical effects. Effects can include special abilities, basic rules, etc... Heck the argument for Ethereal not taking causalities from KB cause it rolls to wound is almost saying that Ethereal stops wounds from combat resolution from the unstable rule. Cause using the logic some have used in this whole argument, those wounds from unstable are not caused by magic, therefore Ethereal units can ignore them. Which is silly, and again to point out that's why there is no "magic" in front of the word effects in that entry for Ethereal.

*edit: Causalities from unstable would be an "effect" from a special rule to clarify, just as slain units are an "effect" from the KB rule

fattymac04 wrote:

*edit: Causalities from unstable would be an "effect" from a special rule to clarify, just as slain units are an "effect" from the KB rule

Thank you for this, as someone on the fence regarding this I like this explanation/analogy.

I still have trouble with the wording..' "Conversly, Ethereal creatures can only be wounded by spells, magical attacks and magical weapons or effects." Isn't this just a case of a missing (or needed) Serial Comma? I'm not saying the interpretation is wrong, but this can be read multiple ways right?

1. "Conversly, Ethereal creatures can only be wounded by spells,//magical attacks//and magical weapons or effects."
2. "Conversly, Ethereal creatures can only be wounded by spells,//magical attacks and magical weapons//or effects."

If I'm a TO and I read it the first way, i say KB does not slay ethereal units due to the implied 'magical' in front of effects. But if I'm a TO and I read it the second way, I'd have to say that KB DOES slay ethereal units. Personally, I don't see option 2 getting ruled as frequently as option 1 but (even as a VC player) I absolutely see the argument for 2.

Why does everyone keep asking about wounds?

It does not matter if the Ethereal can ignore the wound.

It is slain if a six was rolled, not wounded.

I assume people are asking because they aren't convinced and are looking for clarity.

Seeing that you're rolling to wound when hoping for the 6 result (Killing blow- "If a model with the Killing Blow special rule rolls a 6 to wound..." ) I don't think this is as clear cut as people on either side are making it out to be.

It is clear cut.

It just does not make sense from an in-game-world point of view.

Like putting an Ethereal creature in a bag is harmful? How can it even be picked up?!
wth

The whole wound thing keeps being brought up, because the argument for KB not working is that you have to roll to wound on a 6, and Ethereal ignore wounds from non-magical attacks, but as it has been stated by me and many others, that doesn't come into play because both happen at different steps in close combat and KB doesn't cause wounds, it slays.

To further clarify for you Jmsincla:

The way that section is worded is meant to be worded that way, there isn't magical in front of effects for a reason. It is not a case of a forgotten semi-colon. If they were trying to save time, they would have phrased it like this, "Magical attacks, weapons and effects." The fact they have magical in front of weapons means that it it doesn't mean magical effects, as there are effects in the game that cause wounds to Ethereal units that are not magical. If you look through the BRB you will find instances where it will say monstrous Infantry, Cavalry, beasts or such, it doesn't say monstrous Infantry, Monstrous Cavalry and beasts, thus implying that beasts is also monstrous, cause it wouldn't.

*edit In terms of in game, it can make sense. KB is a ability granted through magic or certain types of troops have it that basically means they have the knowledge of their weapon so down that they can kill instantly the heaviest armored soldier in the world with one strike, and they know how to place a strike to disperse the essence of a ghostly spirit. Just as the Giant attack would basically be dispersing the essence of the ghost, same as combat res wounds from unstable.

*edit2 for pgs on the whole wording order thing, pg 110 (warmachines in close combat), pg. 113 (whos been hit), pg. 126 (Garrisoning a building), pg. 128 (we is bigger dan dem...), etc... there's more, not going to sit here and list them all

EDIT- forgot quote

fattymac04 wrote:
*edit In terms of in game, it can make sense. KB is a ability granted through magic or certain types of troops have it that basically means they have the knowledge of their weapon so down that they can kill instantly the heaviest armored soldier in the world with one strike, and they know how to place a strike to disperse the essence of a ghostly spirit. Just as the Giant attack would basically be dispersing the essence of the ghost, same as combat res wounds from unstable.

That is actually pretty awesome.

Even so I think it funny a Giant cannot touch a ghost except to pick it up and put it in a bag.
Which destroys the ghost.



Classic.

editing to add:
Writing that entirely made me think of Tephanis.
Anyone else?

I will admit i screwed up there a second, they don't word it monstrous infantry, cavalry and beasts, but as monstrous infantry / cavalry / beasts. Still the same principal as i showed with my previous post with the edit with page numbers.

Yeah, it does seem weird about the whole giant thing is certain ways, but also makes sense. A giant looks down at a ghost and puts his hand down to pick it up to put into his bag. The hand disperses the ghost, yet the giant still thinks he put the ghost into his bag.

The only reason I know about this argument and rule situation is because this came up over a year ago with my friends during a battle before a campaign we were about to run. we figured it out and it makes sense that KB works on Ethereal and in the campaign the VC got a nice bonus for using Ethereal troops. We basically had it where if he lost a Ethereal unit or character to combat res or KB or some other effect, that unit wouldn't be lost, it would show back up in the army after the battle. The only time it would be lost lost, would be when it got killed by spells or magic weapons. It was pretty cool for him cause most of the armies he faced didn't have many magical attack units so he kept them with his armies most of the campaign.

I wouldn't put too much weight on commas. There is a huge debate among writers, publishers on the concept of Oxford Commas.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_comma

In the end, the only real "rule" on comma usage is to make a sentence more understandable. Go back hundreds of years and you will see their usage is different. Some people love semicolons, and they were popular some decades ago, but they have almost completely disappeared from the modern English language.

As for KB being a headshot in FPS games, that's not a good analogy. Because all models are nearly the same in FPS games. A KB is an artillery strike in a modern FPS game. If you're in a tank, you die. If you're a lone soldier, you die. If you're in a foxhole, you die. It's just really hard to hit with them. The tank is normally immune to machine guns, pistols, and nearly anything else, except rocket launchers (magic). But if you call down a howitzer round, it will rock that tank upside down. I know analogies to other games are pretty pointless, but I just wanted to say it's not a headshot. Because you can't take a pistol (dagger) and headshot a tank (dragon). But you can HKB one.

fattymac04 wrote:
Okay just to clear things up for the person who said the reason why they didnt put magic in front of effects because its redundant

quote from pg. 68

"Conversely, Ethereal creatures can only be wounded by spells, magical attacks and magic weapons or effects."

First of all, if that was the case the proper way would be to list it as such, "spells, magical attacks, weapons and effects." The fact they left magical off of effects is due to certain abilities and rules in army books and the BRB that can kill the unit without wounding it.

But as it has been said a million times, the main issue is not that ethereal stops non-magical wounds, but how KB and HKB works. As it is written in the BRB

quote from pg. 72

"If a model with the Killing Blow special rule rolls a 6 to wound in close combat, he automatically slays his opponent - regardless of the number of wounds on the victim's profile. Armour saves and regeneration saves cannot be taken against a killing blow. A ward save can be attempted - if passed, the ward save prevents all damage from the killing blow."

Now the steps for determining KB and HKB is this

1)Striking Order
2)Roll to Hit
3)Roll to Wound
---A) Roll Dice that hit to see if they wound
---B) Consult Chart for wounds
4) Take Saving Throws
---A) Armour Save Roll
---B) Regen / Ward save
5) Remove Casualties
----Wounds go into effect

Now KB and HKB take place at the rolling to wound section, where as their special rule, the wound roll of a 6 basically is discounted because the model is slain, aka DEAD, The ethereal rule doesn't take place until you take the wounds which is after saves. because in the rolling to wound phase, you technically haven't taken any wounds yet, its only until after you do the saving throw phase that you actually take them. This is where i think the confusion on this issue is, misreading the rules. KB is a Effect, not an attack or spell or wound, but an effect that kills a creature outright, regardless of rules, unless that creature is not of the correct type, in which case there is HKB, and of course you get to take a ward save is you have one, because magic.

How will you discount the 6?
The roll of a six determines a successful wound against models unless stopped by a save of some sort.
Killing blow cannot take place immediately after rolling the '6' because you still have to rolls saves before casualties are removed.
The roll of 6 applies until you remove casualties.
And yes you take wounds and remove casualties after saves....
So if ethereal takes place after saves that is when you are applying wounds and removing casualties. No magic no wound

'Remove Casualties pg 51,
'With saving throws made or failed, you now need to remove the slain'
How do we determine slain?
Reducing wounds to zero or special rule that states removed as a casualty.

Instant kills on pg 44.
...models to be removed as casualties....number of wounds is irrelevant-just remove the model from play..
Pit of shades..remove as a casualty
purple sun..slain outright
dwellers..slain outright.
dimensional cascade..removed as a casualty
The list can go on through army books
None of these reference wounds.

Killing blow..pg 72

"...slain outright regardless of wounds. " Whether you have 2, 3, 4, 5..it doesn't matter how many, you lose all your wounds.
Killing blow makes constant reference to wounds.
"A ward save can be attempted-if passed, the ward prevents all damage from the killing blow."
It does not say the ward protects from the killing blow. It states prevents all damage.
Killing blow never states remove as a casualty.
It never says you do not wound.. '...slain regardless of the number of wounds on the profile'

Slain is the term used when a model is to be removed with 0 wounds.
As I have stated Killing blow is an effect. It is not magic. The effect is triggered on wounds just as d3 or d6 wounds but it reduces the model to zero wounds.

I understand the desire, especially for those that play tournaments, to find additional ways to damage powerful creatures like ethereal. But I don't believe it is RAW and definitely not RAI.

Killing blow makes constant reference to wounds.

It does. Except it never says it actually does wound(s). And the # of times a word is used doesn't mean you can cobble together rules that don't exist.

It COULD have said it does all the wounds the model possesses without armor and regen saves. In which case Ethereal would block it. Yet it didn't say that. Nowhere once does it say it causes a wound.

In fact it completely bypasses the table that is essential to cause wounds. Unless something says, "unit takes X wounds" you have to roll to wound them. There are no other ways within the BRB and entire of game of WHFB that you can give wounds. They are two whole instances. You can reach them multiple ways (shooting, spells, special rules [stomp, poison, Instability], etc etc). But it will literally say, you take wounds, or you COMPLETE the actions of the wound table. I don't know of any other situation where you take wounds without it saying...you "take wounds based on X" or rolling on the wound table. Stomp does hits, Impact hits do hits, Breath Weapons do hits, all of which have to roll to wound. Poison does wound. They literally say that. They don't say, "getting Stomped is super dangerous, you figure out what that means..."

KB never says it does a wound. If something doesn't say you take a wound, you don't take a wound. Or I'm going to start arguing you take automatic wounds simply because you're Ethereal, because, as you pointed out, Ethereal "makes use of the word" wound. Therefore, it has to be wounding...stuff. Obviously I'm being goofy, but you're simply not supplying any concrete rules. Saying a word appears regardless of context and meaning isn't a rule.

I'm not the queen of England. Hey, that must be I am the queen of England because that sentence mentioned me and queen of England. God save me!

I find it amusing that peasant listed a number of ways to slay a model with out wounding it.

DukeRustfield wrote:

Killing blow makes constant reference to wounds.

It does. Except it never says it actually does wound(s). And the # of times a word is used doesn't mean you can cobble together rules that don't exist.

It COULD have said it does all the wounds the model possesses without armor and regen saves. In which case Ethereal would block it. Yet it didn't say that. Nowhere once does it say it causes a wound.

In fact it completely bypasses the table that is essential to cause wounds. Unless something says, "unit takes X wounds" you have to roll to wound them. There are no other ways within the BRB and entire of game of WHFB that you can give wounds. They are two whole instances. You can reach them multiple ways (shooting, spells, special rules [stomp, poison, Instability], etc etc). But it will literally say, you take wounds, or you COMPLETE the actions of the wound table. I don't know of any other situation where you take wounds without it saying...you "take wounds based on X" or rolling on the wound table. Stomp does hits, Impact hits do hits, Breath Weapons do hits, all of which have to roll to wound. Poison does wound. They literally say that. They don't say, "getting Stomped is super dangerous, you figure out what that means..."

KB never says it does a wound. If something doesn't say you take a wound, you don't take a wound. Or I'm going to start arguing you take automatic wounds simply because you're Ethereal, because, as you pointed out, Ethereal "makes use of the word" wound. Therefore, it has to be wounding...stuff. Obviously I'm being goofy, but you're simply not supplying any concrete rules. Saying a word appears regardless of context and meaning isn't a rule.

I'm not the queen of England. Hey, that must be I am the queen of England because that sentence mentioned me and queen of England. God save me!

You claim my usage is incorrect yet there is the same basis for your argument.
You claim my view is incorrect because it never says you wound. Can you provide any other basis that it does not wound.
Killing blow never says it does NOT cause a wound because the model with killing blow will still cause a wound on a six against other targets.
How does it bypass the essential table to cause a wound?
You just stated 'Unless something says, "unit takes X wounds" you have to roll to wound them. There are no other ways within the BRB and entire of game of WHFB that you can give wounds.. "
Exactly. And how do you do this? By rolling to wound. You look at your strength vs opponents toughness and roll to wound. The same thing you do for someone with killing blow.
You roll your dice to wound based on S vs. T. If one on those comes up as a 5 you wound your opponent if one comes up as a 6 you wound your opponent. If they meet the criteria you can slay them regardless of the number of wounds if they fail their ward.
I get that in your argument if they meet this criteria they just die, and I believe that to be incorrect. It makes no rule sense.
Wy do you suddenly ignore that it was a successful 'to wound' roll other than for personal benefit? You are never told to ignore the six that you rolled to wound.
You rolled to wound..if you didn't have killing blow or if the target does not meet the criteria you would wound with your six but now you suddenly no longer wounded??. Nowhere does it state that you ignore the wound caused by your to wound roll.
Edit to add Again...Killing blow is triggered just like d3 or d6 wounds except it is All remaining wounds.
You do not roll a dice before rolling to wound to see if you ill strike a killing blow.
YOu had to roll your 'to wound' roll and get a six to get killing blow to function.
You are asked to roll to wound. And 'on a 'to wound roll of a six..'..
Every time in the game that you roll to wound...you roll to wound and if it is successful roll it wounds. That is the point.
You are never asked to roll on a separate chart. you are never asked to roll a separate dice..
You are not ignoring, not back tracking, not discounting, not changing
Every weapon has the same process you roll to wound and if that roll meets the criteria it wounds. The book doesn't say roll to wound..to wound, which is what you are saying is required in killing blow text. It says compare S vs. T on the chart to find the required roll. If you meet that roll you have successfully wounded



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kirsanth wrote:
I find it amusing that peasant listed a number of ways to slay a model with out wounding it.

I'm glad it humors you.
When you are done laughing and clear the tears from your eyes continue reading.

The point is that NONE of those listed, reference wounds in their description. They are Instant kills that do not wound which is contrary to my position that killing blow does wound.
If you'd like, read my last post to Duke about all the reasons it Does cause wounds.
Why do you think it does not wound? Just because it doesn't say it wounds.?
That's a stretch.
My post to Duke lists all the reasons I believe it DOES. And it never says it doesn't wound either so if the fact that it never says it wounds is your basis it's easily countered by the opposite.

Can you provide any other basis that it does not wound.

It doesn't say it does.

It doesn't say you take a wound(s). It doesn't say you automatically lose. It doesn't say you kill the entire unit. It doesn't say you get to jump up and down on his models while slathering yourself with cocoa butter.

You don't do things the game doesn't say you do.

DukeRustfield wrote:

Can you provide any other basis that it does not wound.

It doesn't say it does.

It doesn't say you take a wound(s). It doesn't say you automatically lose. It doesn't say you kill the entire unit. It doesn't say you get to jump up and down on his models while slathering yourself with cocoa butter.

You don't do things the game doesn't say you do.

No it doesn't say you wound.
And it doesn't it say it does not wound. So we must look elsewhere for what happens.
Buti t is implied by following game rules.
What do you do every time you roll to wound?
What are you doing when you are asked to roll to wound?
Again, what happens when you roll a six to wound with killing blow against a Monstrous creature?
Where does it ask you to ignore the successful to wound roll of a six? Six always wounds unless told otherwise. There is no instruction to ignore the wound you rolled
As I have said, repeatedly, killing blow trigger on the wound just like d3 or d6, it just takes all wounds whether there is 1 or 100.

Ethereal lets you ignore the wound that the 6 would cause.

The fact that that 6 also slays the model regardless of remaining wounds is what confuses some folk.

It does not require the wound to succeed - it requires a 6.

editing to add:
Note that the ALSO slays is not in addition to or afterward.
It slays the model outright, regardless of wounds.
Thus the wounds do not matter and are not regarded.
The model is slain.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not liking a rule does not make it wrong.
This one makes little sense, as I read it, and is probably written differently than intended, but that does not change the actual text no matter how much people want others to squint and cross their eyes when regarding the text.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peasant wrote:
The point is that NONE of those listed, reference wounds in their description.

Referencing something is a reference, not a rule.
If the idea was to follow another rule it would state as much.
Or a straw to be grasped instead of reason is more solid.

The fact - yes fact - that it tells you not to regard wounds should be read as a rule, not the random assertion that because wounds are mentioned they SHOULD be regarded.
The rules you reference tell you not to regard the thing you are saying the rules ask you to regard.

 kirsanth wrote:
Ethereal lets you ignore the wound that the 6 would cause.

The fact that that 6 also slays the model regardless of remaining wounds is what confuses some folk.

It does not require the wound to succeed - it requires a 6.

editing to add:
Note that the ALSO slays is not in addition to or afterward.
It slays the model outright, regardless of wounds.
Thus the wounds do not matter and are not regarded.
The model is slain.

Ethereal does ignore the wound, thus the killing blow.
If you didn't get the ward it could be considered an instant kill and potentially bust the whole discussion..but you do get the ward.
It never says you need a 6
It says when you roll a six to wound. There is no other way to put that.
It does require the wound to succeed.
You are rolling to wound.
Does a six when rolling to wound, wound? yes or no?
If you rolled the six to wound you can slay the model regardless of wounds if it meets criteria...after saves.
Again if it was instant kill with no ward we could possibly stop here..but we don't
You don't get armour saves. It says you don't.
If you make your ward you do not suffer a wound. Or any other damage.
Why are you rolling a ward save?
To prevent a wound. If you don't meet the criteria you take a wound. If you meet certain criteria the failed ward will cause killing blow.
Why a wound? Because you already wounded with the to wound roll of 6. You are never told to disregard the wound that you caused prior.
It does not say the wounds are not regarded.
It says slain regardless of the number of wounds. Those are 2 very different sentences.
Instant kills tell you the wounds are irrelevant.
You are attempting to disregard what has already happened which was a successful roll to wound.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not liking a rule does not make it wrong.
This one makes little sense, as I read it, and is probably written differently than intended, but that does not change the actual text no matter how much people want others to squint and cross their eyes when regarding the text.


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 Peasant wrote:
The point is that NONE of those listed, reference wounds in their description.

Referencing something is a reference, not a rule.
If the idea was to follow another rule it would state as much.
Or a straw to be grasped instead of reason is more solid.

The fact - yes fact - that it tells you not to regard wounds should be read as a rule, not the random assertion that because wounds are mentioned they SHOULD be regarded.
The rules you reference tell you not to regard the thing you are saying the rules ask you to regard.

As I stated above you have already done the wound and you are slain regardless of the number of wounds. you cause as many as you need to, to reduce the model to zero.
It is following the rules as they go.
And again it says slain regardless of the number of wounds..the wounds are still relevant.

Okay Peasant, So using your logic then, that means Ethereal units are immune to Unstable because unstable causes wounds that are not magical. Which according to the rules does not work! and via the FAQ does not work that way as I said, it is an effect and effects can hurt / kill Ethereal.

Example:

1) A unit of Spirit hosts loses combat by 6, so they take 6 wounds. These 6 wounds are not cause by weapons or a spell, but by a special rule whose effect comes into play if you lose combat with a unstable unit, thus the wounds from this effect of a special ability would bypass Ethereal.

2) A unit of Hexwraiths gets attacked by a unit of Tomb Guard, The tomb guard score 12 hits, of those 12 rolls to wound 4 were 6s, in which case the killing blow special effect comes into play, after resolving saves and such the unit of Hexwraiths would take the 4 casualties from the Killing blows as those models are killed outright, aka instant kill.

3) the save or die spells have a a condition that needs to be met in order for them to work, dwellers below requires a unit to take str tests, on that fail they are instant killed. The spell it self doesn't just kill them outright, a condition must be met first.

Also btw the reason why it mentions wounds for Killing blow is for combat res!!!!!

Also you seem to ignore a certain part of the instant kill

pg. 44

"Some special attacks don't inflict wounds, but require models to be removed as causalities (after failing a Ld or T test, for example). Where this is the case, not only are no saves of any kind allowed (unless specified otherwise), but the number of wounds on the victims profile is completely irrelevant - just remove the model from play, and hope for better luck next time!"

It says for saves "unless specified otherwise" , which KB does specify, the part about wounds on profile being irrelevant also goes with KB, as KB just removes models, but where this section talks about instant kills as a whole, KB only works in CC, therefor you have to keep in mind the amount of wounds on the profile for Combat Resolution to determine a winner, unless you wipe the unit outright.

fattymac04 wrote:
Okay Peasant, So using your logic then, that means Ethereal units are immune to Unstable because unstable causes wounds that are not magical. Which according to the rules does not work! and via the FAQ does not work that way as I said, it is an effect and effects can hurt / kill Ethereal.

Example:

1) A unit of Spirit hosts loses combat by 6, so they take 6 wounds. These 6 wounds are not cause by weapons or a spell, but by a special rule whose effect comes into play if you lose combat with a unstable unit, thus the wounds from this effect of a special ability would bypass Ethereal.

2) A unit of Hexwraiths gets attacked by a unit of Tomb Guard, The tomb guard score 12 hits, of those 12 rolls to wound 4 were 6s, in which case the killing blow special effect comes into play, after resolving saves and such the unit of Hexwraiths would take the 4 casualties from the Killing blows as those models are killed outright, aka instant kill.

3) the save or die spells have a a condition that needs to be met in order for them to work, dwellers below requires a unit to take str tests, on that fail they are instant killed. The spell it self doesn't just kill them outright, a condition must be met first.

Also btw the reason why it mentions wounds for Killing blow is for combat res!!!!!

Also you seem to ignore a certain part of the instant kill

pg. 44

"Some special attacks don't inflict wounds, but require models to be removed as causalities (after failing a Ld or T test, for example). Where this is the case, not only are no saves of any kind allowed (unless specified otherwise), but the number of wounds on the victims profile is completely irrelevant - just remove the model from play, and hope for better luck next time!"

It says for saves "unless specified otherwise" , which KB does specify, the part about wounds on profile being irrelevant also goes with KB, as KB just removes models, but where this section talks about instant kills as a whole, KB only works in CC, therefor you have to keep in mind the amount of wounds on the profile for Combat Resolution to determine a winner, unless you wipe the unit outright.

No.
1. This is a special rule that applies to undead and has no bearing on the ethereal rule. Undead instability and how undead deal with loss of combat is not related. It even states that they can be beaten in combat because of combat resolution.

2. I am not very familiar with tomb guard or hexwraiths but If the tomb guards attacks are magical and the hexwraiths have no wards and meet killing blow criteria they are slain regardless of the number of wounds. plus any other strength vs. toughness rolls would wound as normal.

3. Yes the instant kills have a condition to be met. Failing a strength test etc. killing blow never says remove a model from play.

And how would killing blow affect combat res? With the wounds it causes.

As for the connection with instant kills they are similar but You are adding connection where it doesn't exist.
You are told to remove them from play with instant kills.
Killing blow never says the wounds are irrelevant nor to remove them from play.
Killing blow is never called an instant kill because it is not.
Killing blow does not just remove models.

Killing models is written as slays/slain when reaching zero wounds.

Im going to ask this once and im done dealing with this devil advocate back and forth, its not worth it

Peasant,

Using the BRB and FAQs, please list pages, qoutes whatever and show us where KB causes wounds, cause it doesn't, I've looked, unless you have a screwed up rule book, I don't see anywhere where KB cause's wounds. It slays models, but doesn't wound them.

Also I would suggest going here http://z4.invisionfree.com/Khemri/index.php?showtopic=13609

That thread basically has all the points for and against, with nice details on why KB does work, even though it seems weird and why it won't be used at tourneys by most players.

*Edit

Here is one of the final arguments from the Khemri website, this is attributed to fafmut on that site, this is clear cut and has the BRB to back it up.

QUOTE ("BRB p.44")

"Instant Kills"
Some special attacks don't inflict wounds, but require models to be removed as casualties... Where this is the case, not only are no saves of any kind allowed (unless specified otherwise), but the number of wounds on the victim's profile is completely irrelevant - just remove the model from play....

QUOTE ("BRB p.68")

ETHEREAL
...Ethereal creatures can only be wounded by spells, magical attacks and magic weapons or effects....

QUOTE ("BRB p.72")

KILLING BLOW
If a model with the Killing Blow special rule rolls a 6 to wound in close combat, he automatically slays his opponent - regardless of the number of wounds on the victim's profile. Armor saves and regeneration saves cannot be taken against a Killing Blow. A ward save can be attempted - if passed, the ward save prevents all damage from the Killing Blow....

QUOTE ("BRB p.51")

REMOVE CASUALTIES
With saving throws made or failed, you now need to remove the slain. Close combat casualties are removed in the same way as shooting ones....

I wanted to outline these in this specific order to reach the following logical conclusions:
The first rule states that some rules cause "instant kills" and do not inflict wounds. "(unless specified otherwise)" is bolded to reflect how Killing Blow is not an exception to this "instant kill" rule as KB offers a ward save (tying it to the bold in the KILLING BLOW rules quote above).
Ethereals are immune to non-magical wound generators. As Killing Blow is not causing wounds as explained in the first bullet point above, Ethereal does not get around the Killing Blow effect.
KILLING BLOW states that it "slays" an opponent. REMOVE CASUALTIES ties the phrase "slain" (past tense of "slay") to the phrase "close combat casualties". "Casualties" is also explicitly stated in the first rule above for "Instant Kills", thus reaffirming that KILLING BLOW falls under the aegis of the "Instant Kills" rule.

Killing Blow removes casualties without causing wounds if the target fails to make a ward save. Ergo, Ethereal does not ignore Killing Blow.

Ethereal does ignore the wound, thus the killing blow.

killing blow never says remove a model from play.

At this point I think you're either trolling, don't understand, or are just stomping your feet to get your way. Because you're clearly making things up, you're clearly using logic that a sentence later you refute: killing blow doesn't say remove from play--though it says slay--yet ethereal ignores "the wound" which is never stated is caused.

*Killing blow never says the wounds are irrelevant nor to remove them from play. --Then KB breaks the game because its combat resolution is unknown and victory points are unknown. Instant kills has enough latitude to cover KB and Purple Sun both.

*Killing blow is never called an instant kill because it is not. --It is. Because instant kills allow for any save specified. No kill is "instant." Purple sun you have to cast, get power level, not get dispelled, target, enemies take saves. That's not instant. The RESULT is instant because you don't take a wound. Just like you roll to hit on KB, to wound, and if it's a 6, you get purple sunned.

*Killing blow does not just remove models. -- This is nonsense. Pit of Shades doesn't remove models. It DOOMS and removes as casualties. Dwellers below doesn't remove models, it slays (sound familiar?). None of them are instant.

*Killing models is written as slays/slain when reaching zero wounds. --Again, not sure how you can't understand this, but 6 is not only 5+1. Dwellers says it slays. Dwellers does not wound. This is really basic logic. You're saying that Ethereal cannot be wounded. Well, models that aren't in play can't be wounded. So Ethereal means the unit isn't in play. That's basically what you're saying.

DukeRustfield wrote:

Ethereal does ignore the wound, thus the killing blow.

killing blow never says remove a model from play.

At this point I think you're either trolling, don't understand, or are just stomping your feet to get your way. Because you're clearly making things up, you're clearly using logic that a sentence later you refute: killing blow doesn't say remove from play--though it says slay--yet ethereal ignores "the wound" which is never stated is caused.

No I am not trolling. I may not have been as clear as I should have been in my attempts not to write an epic novel on why killing blow causes wounds and does not work on ethereal, but I digress.
I am addressing points that you are avoiding or refusing to admit. Lets try again. Unfortunately this will be a bit longer.
Starting with your last post.
The first trouble I see is in your desire to be literal in application but only where it benefits and my errors in language to try and keep things short which may be causing your confusion and my failure to help you understand.

1. pg 51 instructs to remove the slain the same way as shooting. pg 45 ..target suffers unsaved wounds and to save space we know when a model reaches zero wounds they are removed from play. That is how it is described. Obviously we remove models from play when they are reduced to zero wounds or something tells us to remove them. Nowhere in the text for 'killing blow are the words 'remove/d from play ever written.' Some spells and abilities have that actual text. 'remove from play' remove as a casualty. Return to the start of this and we know that when a model reaches zero wounds it does get removed.
Your paraphrasing at the end is missing essential parts and is changing context which hopefully will be cleared up as we continue.

*Killing blow never says the wounds are irrelevant nor to remove them from play. --Then KB breaks the game because its combat resolution is unknown and victory points are unknown. Instant kills has enough latitude to cover KB and Purple Sun both.

I'm not sure what you mean by your first sentence? Instant kills may have latitude to cover killing blow but there is nothing that connects killing blow to instant kills. Killing blow text does not state that it is an instant kill. Killing blow text does not state remove the model from play. We understand that we will remove a model from play at zero wounds but going down to zero wounds is not necessarily an instant kill. pg 44 describes them. no wounds, removed from play and characteristic tests are all key points. Again..you roll to wound..to wound and this is the part that people are trying to avoid.
What are you doing when you roll to wound whne playing this game?

*Killing blow is never called an instant kill because it is not. --It is. Because instant kills allow for any save specified. No kill is "instant." Purple sun you have to cast, get power level, not get dispelled, target, enemies take saves. That's not instant. The RESULT is instant because you don't take a wound. Just like you roll to hit on KB, to wound, and if it's a 6, you get purple sunned.

You are partially correct in some parts..Killing blow is not an instant kill you rolled to wound. Instant kills do allow specified saves. No kill is 'instant' in time, they do require process to get there. Here is where I find you to be struggling. Purple sun requires an initiative test. What are you doing with your initiative test? Testing against Initiative. Initiative is not wounds. You cant take a wound on Initiative they are 2 separate stats. Same applies to all other characteristic tests.
And what do all of these spells have in common? They tell you what characteristic to test against and then tell you what to do or what to apply or to remove as a casualty or remove from play.
The example of purple sun is useful (I will continue but we are drifting from the topic at hand) you test against initiative, but what happens when you fail? you don't know because it is initiative, you can't get 'initiatived' . so you are instructed to slay the model. You also have items that take initiative tests and instruct you to take a wound (just a single one), again how else do you know what to do when you fail or succeed?
When you roll to wound that is what you are doing? You cannot escape that portion.
Again I ask the question. Have you ever been asked to roll to wound to not wound? When are you asked to roll to do something and ignore what you have just done? (I will probably repeat this.)

*Killing blow does not just remove models. -- This is nonsense. Pit of Shades doesn't remove models. It DOOMS and removes as casualties. Dwellers below doesn't remove models, it slays (sound familiar?). None of them are instant.

Again partially correct. Partially for my incomplete typing. Pit of shades removes casualties. that is correct it tells you Initiative test, fail..then remove them as casualties. Again, text that is not part of killing blow. Dwellers does say slays. And slaying is reducing the models wounds to zero. Since Initiative is not wounds so you need to know what it is doing. You have effects that cause strength tests, you can't be 'strengthed' so you are told to wound, or remove as casualty or restrict movement. You need instruction on what to do with those tests. You do not need instruction on what to do when you are wounded because you are wounded. Again killing blow is a result of wounding just like d6 or d3 only it is all the wounds on a profile.

*Killing models is written as slays/slain when reaching zero wounds. --Again, not sure how you can't understand this, but 6 is not only 5+1. Dwellers says it slays. Dwellers does not wound. This is really basic logic. You're saying that Ethereal cannot be wounded. Well, models that aren't in play can't be wounded. So Ethereal means the unit isn't in play. That's basically what you're saying.

You are correct 6 is not only 5+1. But you are told to use 5+1 to get 6. You could possibly look at it his way..in the magic pahse you use 3x2=6, combat 5+1=6, shooting 3+3=6. The point is there are multiple ways to get where you are going. (too many to make math equations for all of them) But the point is you can't use 5+1=6 (for example process for killing blow) get the six and say okay It's actually 3+3=6. You don't back track steps, maybe you do on a rare occasion but those are specifically stated..(not sure how clear that is) Lets do it with some writing...
Dwellers does say it slays. It has to say something because you took a strength test and you have no idea what it will do. Will it cause a wound? Will it stop you from moving? Will it slay you? What slays? reducing to zero wounds.You only know because you are told.
What do you do when you roll to wound a model? You wound it. When you roll to wound you never need to be told again that you are wounding. Rolling to wound causes wounds and you may get an effect after the wound. Maybe you get -1 toughness, maybe you get, d3 wounds, maybe you get killing blow. Either way you are told what to do after causing the wound. Just as you are told what to after any other test you take.
I 'm not saying Ethereal can't be wounded. I'm saying killing blow does not work on ethereal creatures unless you have a magic weapon like say..the blade of blood.







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fattymac04 wrote:

I wanted to outline these in this specific order to reach the following logical conclusions:
The first rule states that some rules cause "instant kills" and do not inflict wounds. "(unless specified otherwise)" is bolded to reflect how Killing Blow is not an exception to this "instant kill" rule as KB offers a ward save (tying it to the bold in the KILLING BLOW rules quote above).
Ethereals are immune to non-magical wound generators. As Killing Blow is not causing wounds as explained in the first bullet point above, Ethereal does not get around the Killing Blow effect.
KILLING BLOW states that it "slays" an opponent. REMOVE CASUALTIES ties the phrase "slain" (past tense of "slay") to the phrase "close combat casualties". "Casualties" is also explicitly stated in the first rule above for "Instant Kills", thus reaffirming that KILLING BLOW falls under the aegis of the "Instant Kills" rule.

Killing Blow removes casualties without causing wounds if the target fails to make a ward save. Ergo, Ethereal does not ignore Killing Blow.

I'm going to try and keep this short because I wrote a long response to Duke covering most of this.
The thread you listed shows many things that have been said here but let me try to summarise..again. following your logical conclusions, refuting them and explaining my logic.
Instant kill does not apply to killing blow because you are going backwards.
Are you saying ..you slay and slaying is part of casualties which is part of instant kills so killing blow works on ethereal???
How do you determine killing blow doesn't wound when you must roll to wound to activate it?
Causing a wound to a basic troop slays him as well.
Killing blow comes before removing casualties because until you are slain (or told to remove the model as a casualty you are not removed. You must follow the game process. Hits wounds saves remove the slain. Instant kills is a form of casualty removal which comes at the end of the phase.


Pg 44 'Instant kills' and pg 72 Killing Blow.

Instant Kills..
..requires models to be removed as casualties (after failing a Ld or T test for example) Where this is the case...

1.KB (I hate abreviations but I'm getting lazy ) never states, remove as casualty, remove from play.
2.KB does not ask you to fail or even take characteristic tests.
3.Killing blow does not state it is an instant kill.

Therefore killing blow is not an instant kill.
Just because you are reducing the model to 0 wounds does not make it an instant kill.
Taking a characteristic test doesn't make it an instant kill.
Losing all your wounds does not make an instant kill.
We can start with the simplest solution that I have stated many times.
You are asked to roll to wound.
You roll to wound for 1 purpose, to wound..once you have wounded by a successful roll to wound you do not backtrack. When we do anything in this game we do not backtrack.
You must suffer a wound from the six and meet the criteria to be slain. If you are ethereal and the weapon isn't magic nothing happens. If you aren't infantry/cavalry you take a wound if you fail your save.
Killing blow is an effect that happens on a wound just like d3 or d6 except that it reduces a model to 0 regardless of the number of wounds on the profile.
There is no gaming process that asks you to not take the wound you just caused.
If you weren't wounding you'd be asked to roll a six, you'd be asked to take a characteristic test or some other rule.
The fact that KB doesn't state you wound has no bearing because you rolled to wound. That is the game process.
I

Ehh, I don't know. I think your looking to hard for a loop hole in the rules to say Killing Blow can wound Ethereal.

I can tell you most store managers, and tournament holders will say it can't.

 LordHamshire wrote:
Ehh, I don't know. I think your looking to hard for a loop hole in the rules to say Killing Blow can wound Ethereal.

Tell that to a giant.

Then talk to Tomb Guard.

Wounds are a lark. Mentioning them is a strawman, basically.

People* are looking for a rule that backs what some* think is common sense, but none exist.


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 LordHamshire wrote:
I can tell you most store managers, and tournament holders will say it can't.

And I can tell you that every single person in the world that you have not asked and has not posted otherwise disagrees with everything you stated.

Neither matters a whit.

Like I said pretty early, I don't think it's bad to have Ethereal block KB. I just think it's pretty clear it's not RAW. The language isn't there.

I agree, I do not think it makes "common sense" but the way the rules are worded it does work. Either Game store owners and tournament runners will allow it or not, it is up to them. What is needed is a FAQ to confirm that it works or doesn't, but at the rate GW makes those we probably wont see one for a few months.

Is the weapon magical? if yes it can affect the Ethereal if not then it cannot. Thats the way I see it.

 Goregut wrote:
Is the weapon magical? if yes it can affect the Ethereal if not then it cannot. Thats the way I see it.

Although logically everyone (well most people) see it this way, by the strictest of RAW this isn't what GW wrote in the rulebook.

 Goregut wrote:
Is the weapon magical? if yes it can affect the Ethereal if not then it cannot. Thats the way I see it.

The simplest rule would have been that Ethereals cannot be affected by non-magical sources.
Since that is not the case...
Ogre Slaughtermaster is equiped with Armor of Silvered Steel (2+ armor), Other Tricksters Shard (re-roll wards), Greedy Fist (+1 strength, 6+ ward, destroys magic weapons if ogre makes a save, and drains magic levels on a hit, talisman), and an extra hand weapon.
This gives the ogre WS4 and 5 attacks at Strength 5.
The slaughtermaster finds himself in combat with a Slaan who's ethereal. The Slaughtermaster cannot wound the slaan, but can hit him and take his wizard levels away.

Effects that trigger on a hit still take place, even if you cannot wound.

-Matt

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Goregut wrote:
Is the weapon magical? if yes it can affect the Ethereal if not then it cannot. Thats the way I see it.

The simplest rule would have been that Ethereals cannot be affected by non-magical sources.
Since that is not the case...
Ogre Slaughtermaster is equiped with Armor of Silvered Steel (2+ armor), Other Tricksters Shard (re-roll wards), Greedy Fist (+1 strength, 6+ ward, destroys magic weapons if ogre makes a save, and drains magic levels on a hit, talisman), and an extra hand weapon.
This gives the ogre WS4 and 5 attacks at Strength 5.
The slaughtermaster finds himself in combat with a Slaan who's ethereal. The Slaughtermaster cannot wound the slaan, but can hit him and take his wizard levels away.

Effects that trigger on a hit still take place, even if you cannot wound.

-Matt

But KB is triggered on a successful roll to wound. Hence the argument that if you cannot wound, KB cannot trigger.

I can't dunk a basketball. But I can put a basketball in my hand, run up to the basket, jump...and fall short. That will happen every single time I attempt it. Even if something is 100% impossible that doesn't mean you can't try. That's basic logic. A quadriplegic and myself both cannot dunk a basketball. Yet the quadriplegic cannot even try. That is the difference.

There's instances in the game where it says you can't try something. E.g., you can't try and charge something that you have no chance of reaching. You CAN'T declare that. If you want something to be impossible to try, make it impossible to try.

DukeRustfield wrote:

Oh, and to logic argument this:
model + (0 wounds) = slain
But you're assuming that slain can only have one formula. Such as:
5 +1 = 6
But
4 + 2 = 6
10 - 4 = 6
3 * 2 = 6
Six does not have one and only one formula possible. Slain is achieved however a rule says it is and is not limited by other implementations. 4+2 doesn't care about 10-4.

I'm a computer programmer for a living. And have been doing it for more than 15 or so years. I know a thing or two about logical constructs.

if(wounds == 0)
slay();

That is not reversible. Because you can call slay() under any situation you choose. It is merely the result of a condition. It is not equal to a condition. Wounds is a property. Slay is an action. The two can never be equal as they are not the same concept. Str10 does not equal wounding--even if it's very likely. And if something is wounded, you do not know it came from Str10.

You also conveniently failed to note that the BRB is only talking about combat resolution on p52. It is easy to tell because it's under combat resolution. If it was under the section before it, roll to wound, you might have a point. It is not, however. So the entire section on wounding, the whole area in the WHFB that is devoted to the concept of wounds and their allocation, makes no reference whatsoever to it.

Having a banner or being on elevation or having ranks also affects combat resolution. They are in the exact same section you are quoting. Yet they obviously do not cause wounds (and Ethereal does not block them).

DukeRustfield wrote:
I'm a computer programmer for a living. And have been doing it for more than 15 or so years. I know a thing or two about logical constructs.
if(wounds == 0)
slay();
That is not reversible. Because you can call slay() under any situation you choose. It is merely the result of a condition. It is not equal to a condition. Wounds is a property. Slay is an action. The two can never be equal as they are not the same concept. Str10 does not equal wounding--even if it's very likely. And if something is wounded, you do not know it came from Str10.

You may know something about programming but you still know nothing about logical constructs.
Control flow in programming (like in your sample) is just that, your code includes one logical TEST (are wounds equal zero?) hardly a "construct".
I happen to be a programmer as well so I know the difference between control flow statement and "Logical consequence".
So either you're bad programmer or a troll.
Just so you could understand I will explain (so you could become better programmer):
"If a equals b then b equals a" - that's logic I quoted.
Meaning "(If model's wounds are zero) equals to (model slain) IS THE SAME AS (If model slain) equals to (model's wounds are zero)".
"If a then b is not reversible" - that's your try to interpret above logic.
Meaning "(If model's wounds are zero) slay the model."
Those two are totally different things. See the difference?

You also conveniently failed to note that the BRB is only talking about combat resolution on p52. It is easy to tell because it's under combat resolution. If it was under the section before it, roll to wound, you might have a point. It is not, however. So the entire section on wounding, the whole area in the WHFB that is devoted to the concept of wounds and their allocation, makes no reference whatsoever to it.
Having a banner or being on elevation or having ranks also affects combat resolution. They are in the exact same section you are quoting. Yet they obviously do not cause wounds (and Ethereal does not block them).

Actually it does matter that it is under the combat resolution section, because if you slay a model, how do you count that towards combat resolution, it doesn't say under KB rule, but does so in the combat resolution section so those killed models are counted. Otherwise they wouldn't be counted because it doesn't say they are wounds in the KB section.

It would be like 10 dragon princes attacking a horde of tomb guard, the tomb guard take 8 unsaved wounds and the tomb guard cause 2 unsaved wounds and 5 KB's, if they didn't say that in the combat resolution the Tomb Guard would lose CC by 6 unsaved wounds, but since they specifically mentioned it there it means they lose CC by 1. That section and little phrase is just for the purpose of Combat Res, period, KB doesn't cause wounds except for the purpose of determining how much combat res they cause.

"If a equals b then b equals a" - that's logic I quoted.

And that's what you don't understand. They aren't equal variables and aren't variables with one and only one condition.

If you get a flat tire your car will stop. But if your car is stopped you don't necessarily have a flat tire. You could be out of gas. You could have hit the brakes. You cannot reverse stopped and assume there is one and only one cause. Again, this is a really basic concept.

Why would I mention that this is only part of book that is talking about combat resolution? Why would that matter?

I have no idea why you mentioned it, because it is irrelevant. But it's merely in regards to determining combat resolution. It even says SCORED in the only sentence that mentions wounds. The section on wounds is in the...section on wounds. The section is actually pretty darn in important. There are rules for Flying that only apply if you can Fly. Even though it's movement. There are rules for normal attacking and rules for war machines attacking, guess which ones you use for war machines. You can't just pluck rules out of any section and apply it elsewhere. Shooting attacks don't work like close combat attacks.

I also just remembered that 0 characteristic S or T = slain. Per the BRB. So clearly it's not just a 1:1 on slain. Like I said, there are multiple (many) ways to reach that outcome.

So you can't say that
0 wounds = slain
and
slain = 0 wounds

Because
0T = slain
0W = slain
0S = slain

Among many other things.

DukeRustfield wrote:

I also just remembered that 0 characteristic S or T = slain. Per the BRB. So clearly it's not just a 1:1 on slain. Like I said, there are multiple (many) ways to reach that outcome.

That's true... I did not remember that S/T = 0 means slain as well. I was quite sure that "slain" is ONLY when W = 0 or killed by KB. That means that you are right - my logic was flawed. My bad .

I have no idea why you mentioned it, because it is irrelevant. But it's merely in regards to determining combat resolution. It even says SCORED in the only sentence that mentions wounds. The section on wounds is in the...section on wounds. The section is actually pretty darn in important. There are rules for Flying that only apply if you can Fly. Even though it's movement. There are rules for normal attacking and rules for war machines attacking, guess which ones you use for war machines. You can't just pluck rules out of any section and apply it elsewhere. Shooting attacks don't work like close combat attacks.

While writing reply to that argument I have realized that you you are WRONG but you MIGHT be RIGHT.
So for me it does not make sense to argue anymore as the word "scored" might indicate indeed that this rule on page 52 is ONLY for the purposes of Combat Resolution.
It might not though

So MC, MI etc in combat with something with KB ignores all wound roles of a 6 then?

Honestly, this thread makes me want to weep.

 thedarkavenger wrote:


But KB is triggered on a successful roll to wound. Hence the argument that if you cannot wound, KB cannot trigger.

That's incorrect, Killing Blow is triggered on a "To Wound" roll of a '6', regardless of whether it's successful or not.

Iranna.

The OP has most certainly opened a can of worms with this one! or hes just sitting in his armchair going "dance puppets dance!"

By Sigmars testicles, you cannot wound an etheral creature with a non magical weapon, but 16% of the time you can cut off its head? I think not. A bit of common sense should be applied here.

 Soteks Prophet wrote:
By Sigmars testicles, you cannot wound an etheral creature with a non magical weapon, but 16% of the time you can cut off its head? I think not. A bit of common sense should be applied here.

And all along I thought it was two tails, not two balls and 1 tail.

 Iranna wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:


But KB is triggered on a successful roll to wound. Hence the argument that if you cannot wound, KB cannot trigger.

That's incorrect, Killing Blow is triggered on a "To Wound" roll of a '6', regardless of whether it's successful or not.

Iranna.

@duke-t is true that there are many ways to slay an opponent and you are told when you slay them. I you weren't you would not know to remove them from the table.
@iranna
What are you doing when you are rolling to wound??
Obviously the wound must be successful. That's what the 6 was for. If you saved against it it wasn't successful
People are trying to add or take away what already exists. Trying to change the process of the game.
You rolled to WOUND. You have already wounded.
You don't take any test, roll to do something not to do it.
If you didn't wound, a model with killing blow could not wound a dragon on a roll of six.
For the hundredth time..killing blow triggers on a wound just like d6 or d3 only or is all remaining wounds
This is just getting ridiculous.

 Peasant wrote:

This is just getting ridiculous.

I think that's generous of you...

BooMeRLiNSKi wrote:
So MC, MI etc in combat with something with KB ignores all wound roles of a 6 then?

Not sure which side you're arguing, but... You make it seem like there is only one path and one set of guidelines for every attack. A MC can have an armor save, regen save, ward save. If the attacker has S10 the armor save is removed. If the attacker has flaming attacks, regen is removed. If the attacker is using a blade of realities, the ward save and armor save are removed. I.e., not all rules come into play in all situations. MC/MI the KB rules are completely not in play. They don't exist for that model. It is explicitly written under KB. There is no such exclusion for Ethereal.

If you didn't wound, a model with killing blow could not wound a dragon on a roll of six.

Nowhere in the game does it say that. First off, you need HKB. But second, a wound is caused by:

----somehow you got to the to-wound table
-ROLL to wound (p. 42, 51)
-take saving throws (if any, modified)
-remove casualties (or assign wounds per multi-wounds)

The ROLL to wound section does not do any wounds at all. None. Zero. You are merely rolling to see if you continue. Read those very small sections in the BRB. 42/51. They never once mention doing a wound. Let me repeat that: you do not do a wound when rolling to wound. You merely decide whether you go to the next phase or not which is saving throws.

DukeRustfield wrote:

BooMeRLiNSKi wrote:
So MC, MI etc in combat with something with KB ignores all wound roles of a 6 then?

Not sure which side you're arguing, but... You make it seem like there is only one path and one set of guidelines for every attack. A MC can have an armor save, regen save, ward save. If the attacker has S10 the armor save is removed. If the attacker has flaming attacks, regen is removed. If the attacker is using a blade of realities, the ward save and armor save are removed. I.e., not all rules come into play in all situations. MC/MI the KB rules are completely not in play. They don't exist for that model. It is explicitly written under KB. There is no such exclusion for Ethereal.

If you didn't wound, a model with killing blow could not wound a dragon on a roll of six.

Nowhere in the game does it say that. First off, you need HKB. But second, a wound is caused by:

----somehow you got to the to-wound table
-ROLL to wound (p. 42, 51)
-take saving throws (if any, modified)
-remove casualties (or assign wounds per multi-wounds)

The ROLL to wound section does not do any wounds at all. None. Zero. You are merely rolling to see if you continue. Read those very small sections in the BRB. 42/51. They never once mention doing a wound. Let me repeat that: you do not do a wound when rolling to wound. You merely decide whether you go to the next phase or not which is saving throws.

You have contradicted yourself in this post.
Part one you say that each step tells you whether or not to continue to the next step.
Then you say killing blow ignores steps it does not. There is more than one step but the process is always the same.
You can place ethereal where you want.
You roll to hit.
If you hit. You hit. Of you have a special rule it takes place...why? Because you hit.
You roll to wound. If you succeed you llook to see if there are a y saves.
No saves and single wound remove the model. More than 1 deduct the wound. Killing blow works on that model remove all wounds.
Saves ..roll saves.
If you save it discounts the wound. If you had a ward and passed discount the wound. If you meet the criteria for KB and failed the ward you remove all remaining g wounds.
Some appear to be under the impression that KB discounts the wound. It makes no sense to game process to ignore the wound that you already caused when you rolled a successful wound on a 6. That is why you can still wound models that are not affected by killing blow.
Of course you wounded that's why you moved on. Of course you wounded that's why you are rolling saves.
I think you are struggling because you are contradicting yourself with the process to give a buff to killing blow
I'm at work so I don't have time to write the process for every model but go through the steps of combat with a model with KB vs. A cavalry model, then a cavalry with ward, then a multi wound model, then a multi wound with a ward, then a multi wound that is not affected by KB. Etc..

You roll to wound. If you succeed you llook to see if there are a y saves.

If you meet the criteria for KB and failed the ward you remove all remaining g wounds.

Some appear to be under the impression that KB discounts the wound.

I'll take this piecemeal.

In your first sentence, that is exactly true for non-KB attacks. However, the very first sentence in KB says "if a model with the KB special rule rolls a 6 to wound in CC, he automatically slays his opponent..." That is not To-Wound. In To Wound on p51 you compare you roll with the S and T of the the parties. KB never uses or makes reference to the S or T of anyone or anything. KB breaks out of the p. 51 order of operations. How do you know? Because there is never a Strength/Toughness involved. We know for sure there is no S involved because the next order of operations is Saving Throws and there is no armor save (modified or not), there is no regen save. The only save is what is detailed under the special rule of KB.

Let me give you an example on order of operations that differs from what you think. A Greater Unclean One (DoC) has a Balesword that does D3 wounds. He is playing with Epidemius who has reached a tally of 21 and all Nurgle get KB. The GUO starts fighting a unit of multi-wound enemy infantry with 2 wounds each (if some exist). If the GUO rolls 6 to wound, even if he's feeling lucky, he can't try and roll his multi-wounds and hope it carries over to multiple enemies in the unit. He slays. With 5 attacks the GUO could do 15 wounds, killing 7.5, but if he rolls 5 6s, he slays 5. He never makes it to the point of rolling the D3 because the process is short-cut. According to you, that wound was made or KB wouldn't exist. But then what do you do? KB ignores armor saves and regen, multi wounds doesn't.

And the KB doesn't say "remove all remaining wounds." I don't know why you keep insist on saying it does. It says "regardless of the number of wounds." Remove != regardless. One is a verb. One is an adverb.

KB does discount the wound. It discounts the whole process of To Wound in that you don't compare S to T and look at the chart. A 6 has activated the KB special rule. Once you roll a 6 on to wound, you have entered the body of that special rule and must follow it to the end.

By RAW this is true. The rule for killing blow does say it slays outright it's victim. But then again, if it doesn't cause a wound and you are fighting a large unit of infantry models, what is slain? 1? All of them? If no wound is caused and you are fighting more than 1 possible target how would you resolve it by RAW? I know of no player that would actually play this way for ethereals, but it is certainly a hole in logic as written.

You're still fighting a unit. Unless you have characters involved and you specifically attacked them, you're attacking the members of the unit. That came before KB when you started the Close Combat round. I don't think there's ever a question of who is slain. If you don't target a character, it's rank and file.

KB doesn't confuse the target any more than normal to wound does that I see.

DukeRustfield wrote:

Not sure which side you're arguing, but...

I'll be clear then. Arguing that KB somehow effects ethereal is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard. It's circular reasoning.

This whole thread is in the extreme.

This is very clearly neither the correct RAW or RAI interpretation. This is the same as arguing that poison effects ethereal.

Posion and KB work on ethereal just fine... as long as they are delivered via a magic weapon.

DukeRustfield wrote:

You roll to wound. If you succeed you llook to see if there are a y saves.

If you meet the criteria for KB and failed the ward you remove all remaining g wounds.

Some appear to be under the impression that KB discounts the wound.

I'll take this piecemeal.

In your first sentence, that is exactly true for non-KB attacks. However, the very first sentence in KB says "if a model with the KB special rule rolls a 6 to wound in CC, he automatically slays his opponent..." That is not To-Wound. In To Wound on p51 you compare you roll with the S and T of the the parties. KB never uses or makes reference to the S or T of anyone or anything. KB breaks out of the p. 51 order of operations. How do you know? Because there is never a Strength/Toughness involved. We know for sure there is no S involved because the next order of operations is Saving Throws and there is no armor save (modified or not), there is no regen save. The only save is what is detailed under the special rule of KB.

Ah, this is what is causing your struggle.
pg 51. under roll to wound..
'...once you have hit your foe you must roll again to see whether or not your hit inflicts a wound. Pick up all the dice that scored hits and roll them again.
Consult the To Wound chart, cross referencing the attackers strength........the chart indicates the minimum score required on a d6 to cause a wound..

Pg51 Take Saving throws.
the enemy rolls a d6 for each wound suffered.....if he rolls equal to or greater.....the wound has been deflected.......

KB does not need to make reference to strength or toughness. It has already done so by telling you to roll to wound. That is the process
Again...killing blow does not say roll a dice, if it is a six you are slain...
It say roll a 6 TO WOUND. The process is defined already. Every time you roll to wound you use your S vs. T unless you have a special rule that tells you that you always wound on a 4+ (for example) KB does not tell you that. I tells you to consult the chart by rolling to wound. When you roll the dice To Wound you must consult the chart. When you consult the chart your 6 to wound will slay according to criteria. If you don't meet the criteria you continue. if you have 2 attacks and you roll a 5 and a 6 you consult the chart. Both are on the same chart. You aren't rolling on a killing blow chart you are rolling on the to wound chart. The 5 wounds so does the 6. Infantry are in big trouble monsters not so much.
You have been told to use the chart.
If the method to trigger kb isn't constant then there will be flaws in the process
You don't have a different process for your model with kb. It is the same whomever you fight. .

Let me give you an example on order of operations that differs from what you think. A Greater Unclean One (DoC) has a Balesword that does D3 wounds. He is playing with Epidemius who has reached a tally of 21 and all Nurgle get KB. The GUO starts fighting a unit of multi-wound enemy infantry with 2 wounds each (if some exist). If the GUO rolls 6 to wound, even if he's feeling lucky, he can't try and roll his multi-wounds and hope it carries over to multiple enemies in the unit. He slays. With 5 attacks the GUO could do 15 wounds, killing 7.5, but if he rolls 5 6s, he slays 5. He never makes it to the point of rolling the D3 because the process is short-cut. According to you, that wound was made or KB wouldn't exist. But then what do you do? KB ignores armor saves and regen, multi wounds doesn't.

I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to say In this circumstance it would depend on what he's fighting. all things equal if they are infantry he slays if they are monsters he does d3. You can't choose not to use special abilities. He doesn't need d3 if he is slaying. If the models were 4 wound infantry the d3 would be irrelevant. If they were 4 wound monsters kb would be irrelevant. This point is drifting off topic and has no bearing on the discussion.( well I'm guessing because I'm a bit confused here. )

And the KB doesn't say "remove all remaining wounds." I don't know why you keep insist on saying it does. It says "regardless of the number of wounds." Remove != regardless. One is a verb. One is an adverb.

KB does discount the wound. It discounts the whole process of To Wound in that you don't compare S to T and look at the chart. A 6 has activated the KB special rule. Once you roll a 6 on to wound, you have entered the body of that special rule and must follow it to the end.

The semantics of removing remaining wounds and regardless of the number... is irrelevant. Just replace' regardless of the number' where I said remove all remaining wounds. The process is the same you reduce the model to zero wounds and remove it from the table.
The rulebook uses slain and killed, remove from play. All are effectively the same. But the book would be boring as hell if they didn't write some kind of variations.

The wound for killing blow is not discounted, it is amplified. You rolled a 6 to wound on the to wound chart, you activated KB, the model failed its ward (which you take wards agaist successful wounds according to pg 51 'taking saving throws' .The model is slain regardless of the number of wounds..it doesn't matter if it was 2 or 20. It now has zero.

You rolled 4 dice, 3, 5, 5, 6..all of which are going to be compared to the chart. The same rule applies for all the dice. . They must be compared to the chart, once compared to the chart they are either successful or unsuccessful wounds. Place the six on the chart if its a monster proceed to saves with the wound, if its infantry proceed to saves to slay regardless of number... The 6 doesn't magically disappear.
Following the steps you proceed to saves which is what you do against successful wounds. And what are successful wounds? Any dice rolls that met the criteria on the to wound chart. the 3, 5, 5, 6.
KB ignores armour, S10 goes through most armour,
Both get wards because the process is the same.
KB slays..'regardless of the number of wounds remaining. S10 will do 1, d3..whatever the process is the same. They are both attempts to slay the opponent (one is admittedly better than the other)
KB you have 0 wounds now, you are slain. S10, if they rolled 3 and the model had 3 wounds has 0 wounds and is slain.
Same process.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

BooMeRLiNSKi wrote:

DukeRustfield wrote:

Not sure which side you're arguing, but...

I'll be clear then. Arguing that KB somehow effects ethereal is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard. It's circular reasoning.

This whole thread is in the extreme.

.

IMHO
I don't think it's circular, I think it is an attempt by some to rules lawyer a result that is not RAW and DEFINETLY not RAI just to gain an advantage against a powerful model.
And it's all based on a belief that the roll 'to wound', Is not a roll to wound, so it doesn't wound because KB doesn't say it causes a wound..
It really is ridiculous.
But I can't break away...

 Peasant wrote:

I don't think it's circular, I think it is an attempt by some to rules lawyer a result that is not RAW and DEFINETLY not RAI just to gain an advantage against a powerful model.
And it's all based on a belief that the roll 'to wound', Is not a roll to wound, so it doesn't wound because KB doesn't say it causes a wound..
It really is ridiculous.
But I can't break away...

Well I should of said circular reasoning, rules lawyering, being deliberately obtuse and over-complicating something very simple. It's a mess.

Oh and it all works except when you target MI/MC when it magically turns back into a wound again... because I want it to.

If the seperate things "roll to wound" and wounds had more distinct names, would you find it easier to understand? They are clearly different steps. How about renaming the steps:
Roll to Fred. For each successful Fred (check the Fred table), you inflict 1 wound.
Killing Blow - a roll of 6 on a roll to Fred results in the model being slain with no armour saves, but a Ward save may be taken.

The fact that they use the same word in the BRB for Fred amd Wound is irrelevant - they are different steps in the process.

Niteware wrote:
If the seperate things "roll to wound" and wounds had more distinct names, would you find it easier to understand? They are clearly different steps. How about renaming the steps:
Roll to Fred. For each successful Fred (check the Fred table), you inflict 1 wound.
Killing Blow - a roll of 6 on a roll to Fred results in the model being slain with no armour saves, but a Ward save may be taken.

The fact that they use the same word in the BRB for Fred amd Wound is irrelevant - they are different steps in the process.

Do you wound MI on a roll of 6 to wound when you have KB?

If a rule isn't in play, you follow whatever steps you would normally follow. Kind of like how Ethereal only stops wounds so every action up to the point of actually receiving a wound still takes place.

DukeRustfield wrote:
If a rule isn't in play, you follow whatever steps you would normally follow. Kind of like how Ethereal only stops wounds so every action up to the point of actually receiving a wound still takes place.

OK right so being that MI can't be effected by normal killing blow and killing blow is on the attack then MI can't be wounded by any attack with KB at all...

Right, got ya.

Niteware wrote:
If the seperate things "roll to wound" and wounds had more distinct names, would you find it easier to understand? They are clearly different steps. How about renaming the steps:
Roll to Fred. For each successful Fred (check the Fred table), you inflict 1 wound.
Killing Blow - a roll of 6 on a roll to Fred results in the model being slain with no armour saves, but a Ward save may be taken.

The fact that they use the same word in the BRB for Fred amd Wound is irrelevant - they are different steps in the process.

How do you know it's a successful Fred...you look at the table? where does your 6 end up on the table? follow the process...Roll to Fred and check the table.
AGAIN it is not roll a dice and on a 6 you KB.

I gave an example of this in my last post.
It's not about what it's called it's about the process.
We do not go backwards in process.
Every close combat follows the same steps.
Roll 2 dice to Fred. ( If you are rolling to Fred you must know what your S vs. T is, say S3 vs. T3) scores 5, 6. Compare your roll to Fred to the Fred Chart to see if you successfully wound.
You do. with both. And you have KB.
You have KB and the model is infantry, cav etc.. you will inflict 1 wound for the 5 and (what if we give slay a more distinct name like bubble gum)..so.. on a 6 you potentially bubble gum your opponent regardless of the number of wounds. Whatever you call it, the model effectively loses all of it's wounds.
Time to save..
Armour save vs. the wound caused by the roll to Fred of 5 fails. You don't get an armour save because your 6 to Fred activated KB(KB changed this process)
Ward save (sword/shield)
You roll 2 dice. One for the wound caused by the 5 and one for the KB. You don't need to roll separate dice because both will bubble gum you.
If you have multiple wounds you roll one for each result because one will cause one wound the other will bubble gum you. You need multiple wounds and KB to change this part of the process.

Now look again
Roll 2 dice to Fred. ( If you are rolling to Fred you must know what your S vs. T is, say S3 vs. T3) scores 5, 6. Compare your roll to Fred to the Fred Chart to see if you successfully wound.
You do. with both. And you have KB.
You have KB and the model is a monster. you will inflict 1 wound for the 5 and the 1 wound for the 6. because your 6 to fred is only does a single wound. KB does not change the process
Time to save..
Armour save vs. 2 wounds. KB does not change the process. fail both
Ward save (sword/shield)
You roll 2 dice. One for each wound. You don't need to roll separate dice because both will bubble gum you.
If you have multiple wounds roll together because you wounded twice.

KB is an effect triggered by a successful to wound roll which is a successful wound in the game process. A six always wounds..
KB affects your save and your wounds inflicted. provided it has even come into play. It does not need to be written because that is the game process.

BooMeRLiNSKi wrote:
OK right so being that MI can't be effected by normal killing blow and killing blow is on the attack then MI can't be wounded by any attack with KB at all...

No one said that. I think you need to read the rules a few more times. Or one time. MI has nothing to do with Ethereal whatsoever other than showing what an exclusion in a rule looks like. KB writes in very specific detail it doesn't work on MI. KB doesn't write in any detail that it fails to work on Ethereal, so unless something else says so, it is still in play. Ethereal rule does not say it blocks KB. Ethereal makes no mention of KB or any of the effects of KB. Just like Ethereal doesn't block Scouting or Vanguard or charging or Random Movement.

How do you know it's a successful Fred...you look at the table? where does your 6 end up on the table? follow the process...Roll to Fred and check the table.
AGAIN it is not roll a dice and on a 6 you KB.

Roll 2 dice to Fred. ( If you are rolling to Fred you must know what your S vs. T is, say S3 vs. T3) scores 5, 6. Compare your roll to Fred to the Fred Chart to see if you successfully wound.
You do. with both. And you have KB.

Incorrect. Read KB. The first sentence is all you need. You never have to check the table. KB never tells you to CHECK any table. It never tells you to compare S to T. It is unfortunate that the To Wound table is setup like it is now. But just pretend two units are fighting. You need to roll ONE BILLION to wound them on 1 six-sided die. Because Fred says a Gnoblar fighting a Bloodthirster needs to roll a Billion. A six-sided die does not go up to a billion. Yet, the Gnoblar is wielding a Pebble of Bloodthirster Slaying. He rolls a 6. 6 isn't a billion. He fails to Fred/Wound. Yet he still slays.

There is no requirement, no verbiage, no hint that you have to successfully wound/Fred/whatever to KB. It doesn't care. If. You. Roll. A. 6. You. Slay. If some model has a rule that it cannot be wounded at all because it is super awesome badass, it's toughness if 50000 and it's FAQed that only 14 Comets of Cassandra hitting it simultaneously can cause a single wound, that gnoblar with his pebble can still instantly slay. Because KB rule doesn't care about Toughness or what you need to roll to wound.

DukeRustfield wrote:

How do you know it's a successful Fred...you look at the table? where does your 6 end up on the table? follow the process...Roll to Fred and check the table.
AGAIN it is not roll a dice and on a 6 you KB.

Roll 2 dice to Fred. ( If you are rolling to Fred you must know what your S vs. T is, say S3 vs. T3) scores 5, 6. Compare your roll to Fred to the Fred Chart to see if you successfully wound.
You do. with both. And you have KB.

Incorrect. Read KB. The first sentence is all you need. You never have to check the table. KB never tells you to CHECK any table. It never tells you to compare S to T. It is unfortunate that the To Wound table is setup like it is now. But just pretend two units are fighting. You need to roll ONE BILLION to wound them on 1 six-sided die. Because Fred says a Gnoblar fighting a Bloodthirster needs to roll a Billion. A six-sided die does not go up to a billion. Yet, the Gnoblar is wielding a Pebble of Bloodthirster Slaying. He rolls a 6. 6 isn't a billion. He fails to Fred/Wound. Yet he still slays.

You too should read kb again. But let me help you. The first sentence reads..'If a model with KB rolls a 6 to wound in close combat he automatically slays his opponent regardless of the number of wounds.
You don't need verbiage, hints or anything else it is the process of combat.
You have rolled to hit and now you must roll to wound.
Kb does not have to tell you to compare S vs.T. The combat phase has already Told you to do it. it is the next step.You started the phase by rolling to hit. Now you must roll to wound. How do you roll to wound?
Again. KB does not tell you to roll a dice. It tells you to roll to wound.
The roll of the dice is the same one for your chart. You are never told to ignore the chart.
Your pretend example is irrelevant because a 6 always wounds. Maybe that is what is causing your problem.
Answer these questions.
When rolling to wound does a six always wound?
Where does killing blow say it does not wound.?
Where does it instruct you to discount the wound?
By not comparing S vs. T you are violating the rules of 'rolling to wound'.
How do you roll to wound?
If your model has two attacks you roll 2 dice to wound which dice is your KB dice?
You don't know because they are same dice that will be compared to the chart.
You are confusing yourself by trying to separate KB from the game process.
That same 6 you rolled that can potentially KB an infantry will wound a monster. No change. Same process.

]There is no requirement, no verbiage, no hint that you have to successfully wound/Fred/whatever to KB. It doesn't care. If. You. Roll. A. 6. You. Slay. If some model has a rule that it cannot be wounded at all because it is super awesome badass, it's toughness if 50000 and it's FAQed that only 14 Comets of Cassandra hitting it simultaneously can cause a single wound, that gnoblar with his pebble can still instantly slay. Because KB rule doesn't care about Toughness or what you need to roll to wound.

I'm sure everyone will heave a great sigh of relief that I am almost done here.
KB does not need to tell you. You are told in the game process of rolling to wound that you must wound. Because a 6 to wound always causes a wound. KB never said it doesn't care about s vs. t. It must care because you are rolling to wound. go back and read the examples I typed.
1 wound or 3 wounds gone from KB. Both are slain.
You are never asked to just roll a 6. You are never told roll a die and on a score of 6 you slay.
If KB stated roll a dice and on a score of a six, remove the model from play I would agree with you.

All this just to show KB does not work on ethereal.

BooMeRLiNSKi wrote:

DukeRustfield wrote:
If a rule isn't in play, you follow whatever steps you would normally follow. Kind of like how Ethereal only stops wounds so every action up to the point of actually receiving a wound still takes place.

OK right so being that MI can't be effected by normal killing blow and killing blow is on the attack then MI can't be wounded by any attack with KB at all...

Right, got ya.

The fact that KB is involved does not mean that you are also rolling to wound. That is the whole point. They are seperate. MI would take a wound, they wold not he slain. Ethereal would not take a wound, they would be slain. Ethereal MI would be safe.

The roll of the dice is the same one for your chart. You are never told to ignore the chart.

But you are. Because it says a roll of 6 slays. Slay is not a result of to wound. Successful or unsuccessful wound are the ONLY possible results of consulting the to wound chart. So says the BRB.

Your pretend example is irrelevant because a 6 always wounds.

But that's irrelevant because of the above. Even if it did cause a wound, it would cause a wound AND slay. Ethereal would block a wound and still be slain.

When rolling to wound does a six always wound?

No, not when the attacker has KB.

Where does killing blow say it does not wound.?
Where does it instruct you to discount the wound?

When it says slay regardless of wounds.

By not comparing S vs. T you are violating the rules of 'rolling to wound'.

And by saying Ethereal blocks wounds, you are violating the rules of rolling to wound saying you just took a wound. SURPRISE, there's more than one rule in the BRB.

How do you roll to wound?

I use my right hand. I.e., nonsense question.

If your model has two attacks you roll 2 dice to wound which dice is your KB dice?

The killingest one. I.e., nonsense question.

You are told in the game process of rolling to wound that you must wound. KB never said it doesn't care about s vs. t.

You must wound in normal combat via a normal weapon without Special Rules. But it does say it doesn't care because, as I said, if a unit CANNOT BE WOUNDED EVER, it is still not immune to KB. If Khorne himself comes through and cannot be wounded unless he has a rule that stops KB, he can still be slain. If he can't be hit, he could not be KB. If he has a rule you cannot roll to wound, he could not be KB. But immunity to wounds != immunity to slay. They are separate game actions. If an ogre takes a wound, he has 2 wounds remaining. If an ogre is slain, you remove him from the table. Those are clearly not the same.

All this just to show KB does not work on ethereal.

And you haven't, because it does.

Okay I will state this this again, the order in which all this happens

First the KB rule

"If a model with the Killing Blow special rule rolls a 6 to wound in close combat, he automatically slays his opponent - regardless of the number of wounds on the victim's profile..."

The Ethereal rule

"Ethereal creatures can only be wounded by spells, magical attacks and weapons or effects...."

Close Combat order

1)Striking order
---Basically find out who strikes at what time via Int

2) Roll to Hit
---"Roll a d6 for each attack. Compare the WS of the attacker and the defender to determine the score required to hit."

3) Roll to Wound
---"Roll a d6 for each attack that hit. Compare the STR of the attacker and the TO if the defender to find the score required to wound."
---If you read this section on page 51, no where does it say you actually cause wounds in this phase, you are rolling to see if you can cause a wound.
---This is also where KB takes effect, if the Dice Roll to see if you can cause a wound is a 6 with the KB special rule, you slay the opponent, no ifs and buts.

4) Saving Throws
---"The enemy now rolls a d6 for each wound suffered. If the score is equal or greater than the model's saving throw, the wound is discounted."
---This is where the wounds kick in,
---And this is where the Ethereal special rule kicks in, as it negates WOUNDS from non-magical sources

5) Remove Casualties

Also on page 52 under wounds inflicted, the favorite argument against KB working....

"Attacks that kill a model outright (made with a KB, say -- see pg. 72) count as having scored all the slain model's remaining wounds."
This is under the CALCULATE COMBAT RESULT section. That's why under the KB rule it talks about wounds, cause its for the combat resolutions, to see if you win or lose combat.

Its like this, lets say I KB a lord with 3 wounds, the KB rule says he dies regardless of the fact he had 3 wounds. Then in the remove casualties when it says to move the slain to the side for combat results, the calculate combat result section tells you to count the Lords 3 wounds for combat resolution. Its not cause KB is causing a wound, because no where does it say it does so, THAT IS A FACT, but it SLAY'S!!!!!


As some tried to do earlier, the reason why people can't see this working is because they can't imagine a mundane troop with the KB rule killing a ghost using said KB rule. I felt the same way with my Tomb King army when i have poison working on skeletons and stone constructs.... It doesn't make sense, its not supposed to. The names KB and poison are arbitrary terms used to add fluff to the game, the fact is those words are words we associate with with different things. If they were to call poison, fluffy kitty attack, we wouldn't think of "how the hell does poison work on skeletons and stone." its the same way with KB. It doesn't make sense with the terms they used, but as a game mechanic it works.

Odd, my rule book out lines on page 51:
1) Striking order.
2) Roll to hit.
3) Roll to wound. "As with shooting, once you have hit your foe, you must roll again to see whether or not each hit inflicts a wound."
4) Take Savings throws, "He rolls a D6 for each wound suffered by his troops."
5) Remove Casualties.

Wounds are suffered in step 3, because it is in past tense before you roll the save in step 4; which can only mean it comes before step 3. Interestingly, step 5 doesn't mention wounds at all.

If you're wounded at Step 3 when you roll to wound, then that is where Ethereal steps in. You roll to wound, ethereal cannot be wounded.

-Matt

Niteware wrote:


The process is:
1) Roll to hit (apply any modifiers)
2) Any effects which trigger on rolling tohit
3) Any effects triggered on a hit
4) Roll to wound
5) Any effects triggered by rolling to wound
6) Any effects triggered by wounds
7) Saves
8) Effects triggeeed by unsaved wounds.

Ethereal comes in at step 6, while KB jumps you out of the sequence at step 5

I would agree with this break down of order and say killing blow can slay ethereal's

Except Matt, no where does it say that under rolling to wound it inflicts a wound, the section after it says each wound suffered, yes past tense, but yet when do you take wounds. My guess would be right after you Roll to see if you wound, so slightly before saves, yet after rolling to see if you wound.

Of course that would be relevant, if KB actually said it inflicts wounds, which it does not, it SLAYS.

And that's my point, which has been said over and over again, point where in the book that KB actually causes a wound? or even inflicts a wound? It doesn't unless you can find a page, because if it does then KB would not work, but as it does not cause a wound, it works. Rolling to wound is not the same as causing a wound, different steps. You have to roll to see if you can cause a wound, and that part is comparing STR and To, and that is the part where KB comes into effect. If we were to follow the logic that rolling to wound causes a wound, would that mean that if I have 18 hits, I have 18 wounds? No of course not, you take your 18 hits and roll to see if you wound, then after that you wound.

And Strategem, that's how my friends and I break it down, it makes it clear when its divided up as such.

You inflict a wound after a successful roll but before saves, like you said.

How do I know? 2 ways. Because if something says you take a wound, from some source (spell, item, whatever), unless it says otherwise, you get all normal saves. And at the start of Saving Throws in the BRB it says, now the target rolls a d6 for each wound suffered.

If you're wounded at Step 3 when you roll to wound, then that is where Ethereal steps in. You roll to wound, ethereal cannot be wounded.

Totally. But it can be slain. It can block however many mundane wounds it wants to. But it doesn't block rolling to wound or KB. It blocks the wound suffered from a successful to wound attack from a non magic source. If you roll a 6, the KB rule is activated. Whether a wound is inflicted or not doesn't matter as the model is slain (barring ward).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
EDIT:
I just thought of something. I was thinking it didn't matter if you take a wound and KB happens since Ethereal blocks the wound. It does matter. Not only that, KB takes over and the wound never happens. Here ya go:

1) Striking order.
2) Roll to hit.
3) Roll to wound.
4) Take Savings throws
5) Remove Casualties
6) Calculate Combat Result

If you take a wound in 3 because you rolled a 6 and you also slay, you will take double wounds in combat result. If KB DOESN'T intercept stage 3/4 above, you suffer the wound, and if you don't save you take a wound. But KB also activates and you take all the wounds on your profile.

KB has to take over and block the wound or KB becomes way more more powerful, counting double wounds for every slay. You can only take the wounds on your profile, but KB doesn't do wounds, it slays. And in Combat Resolution it says count all the wounds on the profile. Yet the unsaved wound is also counted if KB doesn't stop that process.

fattymac04 wrote:
Except Matt, no where does it say that under rolling to wound it inflicts a wound, the section after it says each wound suffered, yes past tense, but yet when do you take wounds. My guess would be right after you Roll to see if you wound, so slightly before saves, yet after rolling to see if you wound.

Of course that would be relevant, if KB actually said it inflicts wounds, which it does not, it SLAYS.

And that's my point, which has been said over and over again, point where in the book that KB actually causes a wound? or even inflicts a wound? It doesn't unless you can find a page, because if it does then KB would not work, but as it does not cause a wound, it works. Rolling to wound is not the same as causing a wound, different steps. You have to roll to see if you can cause a wound, and that part is comparing STR and To, and that is the part where KB comes into effect. If we were to follow the logic that rolling to wound causes a wound, would that mean that if I have 18 hits, I have 18 wounds? No of course not, you take your 18 hits and roll to see if you wound, then after that you wound.

And Strategem, that's how my friends and I break it down, it makes it clear when its divided up as such.

As I said before... So by your logic if you roll a 6 when rolling to wound on MI/MC no wound is caused, right?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Niteware wrote:

The fact that KB is involved does not mean that you are also rolling to wound. That is the whole point. They are seperate. MI would take a wound, they wold not he slain. Ethereal would not take a wound, they would be slain. Ethereal MI would be safe.

You do realise you are contradicting yourself here, right? It doesn't mean you are rolling to wound ecept your are rolling to wound and MI take a wound? Right....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DukeRustfield wrote:

No one said that. I think you need to read the rules a few more times. Or one time. MI has nothing to do with Ethereal whatsoever other than showing what an exclusion in a rule looks like. KB writes in very specific detail it doesn't work on MI. KB doesn't write in any detail that it fails to work on Ethereal, so unless something else says so, it is still in play. Ethereal rule does not say it blocks KB. Ethereal makes no mention of KB or any of the effects of KB. Just like Ethereal doesn't block Scouting or Vanguard or charging or Random Movement.

And I think you need to regain your sense of perspective and reason.

KB is a special function of the to wound roll, if you roll a 6 on your to wound roll you do a special wound that does all the remaining wounds on a qualifying models profile. That's it.

"If a model roles a 6 to wound in close combat"

KB is a special wound just like poison is a special hit. Arguing this is just like arguing poison can wound an ethereal because it includes the word "automatically" . Frankly this whole conversation is

"Ethereal creatures can only be wounded by spells, magical attacks and magical weapons or effects" (p68)

The FAQ clarifies this

Q: What are ‘magical attacks’? (p68)
A: All attacks made by spells and magic items are considered
to be magical attacks, as are all attacks that are specifically
noted as being magical attacks. Shots fired from magical items
are also considered to be magical attacks, unless their
description specifically states otherwise. Hits inflicted by rolls
on the Miscast table are treated as magical attacks.

Nope, don't see killing blow in there.

The fact that KB is involved does not mean that you are NOT also rolling to wound. That is the whole point. They are seperate. MI would take a wound, they wold not he slain. Ethereal would not take a wound, they would be slain. Ethereal MI would be safe.

Haha, thanks - missed out an important word, added in caps


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DukeRustfield wrote:
You inflict a wound after a successful roll but before saves, like you said.

How do I know? 2 ways. Because if something says you take a wound, from some source (spell, item, whatever), unless it says otherwise, you get all normal saves. And at the start of Saving Throws in the BRB it says, now the target rolls a d6 for each wound suffered.

If you're wounded at Step 3 when you roll to wound, then that is where Ethereal steps in. You roll to wound, ethereal cannot be wounded.

Totally. But it can be slain. It can block however many mundane wounds it wants to. But it doesn't block rolling to wound or KB. It blocks the wound suffered from a successful to wound attack from a non magic source. If you roll a 6, the KB rule is activated. Whether a wound is inflicted or not doesn't matter as the model is slain (barring ward).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
EDIT:
I just thought of something. I was thinking it didn't matter if you take a wound and KB happens since Ethereal blocks the wound. It does matter. Not only that, KB takes over and the wound never happens. Here ya go:

1) Striking order.
2) Roll to hit.
3) Roll to wound.
4) Take Savings throws
5) Remove Casualties
6) Calculate Combat Result

If you take a wound in 3 because you rolled a 6 and you also slay, you will take double wounds in combat result. If KB DOESN'T intercept stage 3/4 above, you suffer the wound, and if you don't save you take a wound. But KB also activates and you take all the wounds on your profile.

KB has to take over and block the wound or KB becomes way more more powerful, counting double wounds for every slay. You can only take the wounds on your profile, but KB doesn't do wounds, it slays. And in Combat Resolution it says count all the wounds on the profile. Yet the unsaved wound is also counted if KB doesn't stop that process.

The top here is exactly right - KB activating clearly happens before wounds are caused and then diverges from the normal order.

Niteware wrote:

The top here is exactly right - KB activating clearly happens before wounds are caused and then diverges from the normal order.

Also clearly KB is a type of wound that happens when you roll to wound that at no point becomes a spell, magical attack, magical weapon or effect.

The FAQ clarifies, as quoted, what constitutes a magical attack in reference to the page for ethereal rules. It does not mention KB.

It is a roll to wound, if you roll a 6 you do a special killing blow wound, if they can be effected by KB they will die barring ward saves, if they cannot they will take a wound.

In your view of things KB would not do anything on a 6 to MI and MC, you are indicating that a special effect goes off (as far as I can tell, being honest what you are arguing is... silly putting as nice as possible), a special effect that does not work on MI

"killing blow is only effective against..."

it doesn't say it doesn't come into effect, does it? Ergo by your logic (and the rest of team facepalm) if you roll a 6 to wound against MI and MC nothing happens.

You do realize under the MI/MC rules that KB does not work on them right? I specifically says so, so what your saying is irrelevant. Also for KB to work on MI / MC or monsters you need HKB

Also it says no where in the KB it causes a wound, so once again nice try but your just assuming that it says it causes a wound.

And following your logic that would mean that wounds caused from unstable, which are wounds, would not work on ethereal... even though it is FAQ'ed to do so, because it is considered an effect. Also those wounds from unstable are not magical, once again that FAQ on magical attacks is meaningless cause its dealing with that last section called effect. That last section would also be important if KB caused wounds..... which it does not!

Boomerlinski, You should read the KB section over and over and point where in it, does it say it causes wounds.

Because something comes into effect during the to wound phase, does not mean the effect causes a wound, unless the effect says it does.

For a example.

I have 10 Tomb Guard vs 3 ogre bulls
I roll to hit and get 7 hits, I then roll to wound.
I look at the chart, i need 4+
the 7 hits to wound rolls are 1,2,2,3,4,5,6
The roll of a 6 would cause a KB, but seeing its against MI, that effect would not come into play, since i do not have HKB
I would then cause 3 wounds which the Ogres would have to make saves against.

BooMeRLiNSKi wrote:

Also clearly KB is a type of wound

lol. Where does it say that? If it's clear, certainly there has to be a page/paragraph/sentence in the BRB that states so. A TYPE is very specific. Like a shooting attack is a type of attack. A chariot is a unit type. A ward save is a type of save. List where it says a KB is a type of wound.

Again, the combat resolution issue solves this long ass thread. Remove Ethereal from the equation. A normal dude gets hit with KB. Every slay will now cause double wounds in combat resolution if they fail their saves. This becomes huge in some situations. Like if two vampire lords are dueling, one with Master Stroke HKB and the other without. If that attack succeeds and slays, not only does the unit he's in lose the character, it can take 6 wounds of combat resolution, double the amount on the target's profile. KB/HKB become really powerful tools for breaking units. Bloodletters just became awesome again, at 4S and 5 on the charge, they can reduce armor saves and help ensure double wounds. Tomb Guard with halberds buffed by cursed blades, KBing on a 5 or 6 will wreck faces.

DukeRustfield wrote:

The roll of the dice is the same one for your chart. You are never told to ignore the chart.

But you are. Because it says a roll of 6 slays. Slay is not a result of to wound. Successful or unsuccessful wound are the ONLY possible results of consulting the to wound chart. So says the BRB.

As you stated it slays regardless of number of wounds. It does not say remove from play or remove as a casualty. We should be able to establish that the terminology of slays/slain is irrelevant as the result is the same. Your KB 'slays....' model is the same as a model that took a wound and is reduced to zero wounds is 'slain'

Where does killing blow say it does not wound.?
Where does it instruct you to discount the wound?

When it says slay regardless of wounds.

 Peasant wrote:
Your KB 'slays....' model is the same as a model that took a wound and is reduced to zero wounds is 'slain'

Again, your result that is the same does not mean the process is the same. How is this confusing? If your car is stopped does not mean you stepped on the brakes. Just like because you are removed from play/slain/removed casualties does not mean you took a wound. This is the most absolute basic logic. If your head is 6' off the ground does not mean you're 6' tall, you could be standing on a rock.

Re read. It says regardless of the number of wounds. Leaving out the number portion could drastically change the sentence. It never says discount the wounds.

Leaving out number doesn't change the sentence in the slightest. Regardless of wounds would still slay anything 100% dead no matter their wounds. That's what regardless means. Seriously, look it up. It doesn't have to say discount the wounds. It has to say WOUNDED to actually wound. It is a game term. If something says you swap places with another model (Smoke and Mirrors) you do not take a dangerous terrain test for the terrain in between your locations. Even though Smoke and Mirrors doesn't say discounting the terrain in between. For an action to trigger, it has to be triggered. Otherwise you do the instructions in the rule given and nothing else. Wounding is a specific game action. It never once takes place.

Incorrect. Ethereal creatures can only be wounded by magic....so you don't roll to wound without magic.

Where does it say that? What page and sentence says "DON'T ROLL TO WOUND WITHOUT MAGIC?" Find that or please stop trolling. You've added nothing except repeating the same lack of rules over and over. Why not at least be interesting and post imaginary rules in limerick form so they can be funny?

Rolling to wound and wounding are the same action.

That is, frankly, idiotic. And it's contradicted by the first sentence under Saving Throws. And it would mean every ability that causes an instant wound would have to roll on the to wound table.

Do you roll saves on failed to wound rolls?
No? Why not? Maybe because you didn't wound?

You just said they are the same thing in that stupendously astute bit of logic above. You need to roll to save everything because they are the same.

DukeRustfield wrote:
You inflict a wound after a successful roll but before saves, like you said.

How do I know? 2 ways. Because if something says you take a wound, from some source (spell, item, whatever), unless it says otherwise, you get all normal saves. And at the start of Saving Throws in the BRB it says, now the target rolls a d6 for each wound suffered.

This is the most accurate thing you have said and solves your dilemma.
You roll to wound and take a wound. That is what you save against. You don't get an armour save against KB, YOu don't usually get armour saves against S10 either.
And yes it does say from each wound suffered.
Why? Because you just got wounded.

If you're wounded at Step 3 when you roll to wound, then that is where Ethereal steps in. You roll to wound, ethereal cannot be wounded.

Totally. But it can be slain. It can block however many mundane wounds it wants to. But it doesn't block rolling to wound or KB. It blocks the wound suffered from a successful to wound attack from a non magic source. If you roll a 6, the KB rule is activated. Whether a wound is inflicted or not doesn't matter as the model is slain (barring ward).

BooMeRLiNSKi wrote:

Niteware wrote:

The top here is exactly right - KB activating clearly happens before wounds are caused and then diverges from the normal order.

Also clearly KB is a type of wound that happens when you roll to wound that at no point becomes a spell, magical attack, magical weapon or effect.

The FAQ clarifies, as quoted, what constitutes a magical attack in reference to the page for ethereal rules. It does not mention KB.

It is a roll to wound, if you roll a 6 you do a special killing blow wound, if they can be effected by KB they will die barring ward saves, if they cannot they will take a wound.

In your view of things KB would not do anything on a 6 to MI and MC, you are indicating that a special effect goes off (as far as I can tell, being honest what you are arguing is... silly putting as nice as possible), a special effect that does not work on MI

"killing blow is only effective against..."

it doesn't say it doesn't come into effect, does it? Ergo by your logic (and the rest of team facepalm) if you roll a 6 to wound against MI and MC nothing happens.

Seriously? Yes, the killing blow does nothing to the MI or MC. BUT YOU STILL ROLLED TO WOUND!. As the KB had no effect, you continue in the normal process. How do you not get that? By your logic, any character with KB could ONLY wound on a 6, because else KB is not effective. Ridiculous.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Attacking can be represented with a flow chart, with special rules each having their own trees within the chart. Poison takes you straight to aves, KB comes off after Roll to wound. They each have branches back to the vanilla process, but also bypass bits. Poison, for example, bypasses KB.

DukeRustfield wrote:

Re read. It says regardless of the number of wounds. Leaving out the number portion could drastically change the sentence. It never says discount the wounds.

Leaving out number doesn't change the sentence in the slightest. Regardless of wounds would still slay anything 100% dead no matter their wounds. That's what regardless means. Seriously, look it up. It doesn't have to say discount the wounds. It has to say WOUNDED to actually wound. It is a game term. If something says you swap places with another model (Smoke and Mirrors) you do not take a dangerous terrain test for the terrain in between your locations. Even though Smoke and Mirrors doesn't say discounting the terrain in between. For an action to trigger, it has to be triggered. Otherwise you do the instructions in the rule given and nothing else. Wounding is a specific game action. It never once takes place.

No.
Regardless of wounds would mean the wounds don't matter.
Regardless of the number of wounds means the number is irrelevant.
Again.. It says wounded when you roll to wound. Or no wound if you fail.

Incorrect. Ethereal creatures can only be wounded by magic....so you don't roll to wound without magic.

Where does it say that? What page and sentence says "DON'T ROLL TO WOUND WITHOUT MAGIC?" Find that or please stop trolling. You've added nothing except repeating the same lack of rules over and over. Why not at least be interesting and post imaginary rules in limerick form so they can be funny?

Oh rules lawyering... How I love thee...

It has probably been stated somewhere in this thread that I overlooked, but I am confident that RAI: KB does NOT work on ethereal.

RAW... well that is obviously up for debate haha.

In the spirit of arguement, has anyone checked adjacent rules such as regeneration (which has a bit about killing blow in it... it might say "does not work against WOUNDS caused by killing blow") or the text for items such as the golden crown that ignore wounds "even those caused by... etc)

I have recently moved to Korea and am without my rule books! So I am just spit balling ideas

Hey Duke just start to ignore Peasant, because all he is doing is trolling, it is quite obvious now.

He has yet to show where KB says it wounds. Rolling to wound and wounding are quite 2 different topics in the BRB, it has been shown throughout this whole thread that they are different, to keep on insisting that they are the same is idiotic. the fact you keep on ignoring all the posts showing as such that they are different or even the hard evidence that A) KB works on Ethereal B) KB slays C) KB doesn't cause wounds, means you are just trolling because you cannot accept the fact that it works that way. As I said earlier if you just change KB's name to something else, a lot more people wouldn't even care, its the name that makes people go WTF, that can't work.

When there is a rule argument and one side presents evidence from the BRB and the other side just paraphrases, means the person paraphrasing has a weak case.

To answer some of your insane questions at the end of you last post:

A failed to wound roll does not cause a wound.
A successful to wound roll..is a wound and causes wounding effects.
Lets try some more things to help you.
Special effects change things. They let you skip steps. They don't stop you mid step
Poison attacks..lets you skip rolling to wound. If you are immune to poison does the 6 miss.? No.
Poison wind globe modifies your wound chart so you wound on a 4+ no matter what.
Automatic wounds let you skip the 'roll to wound'
Automatic hits let you skip roll to hit.
Which by the way, KB does not work if you skip the chart.
KB tells you to ignore the armour save portion.
It tells you to roll to wound.
You say it doesn't wound..it is easy enough to say that it causes one wound then slays regardless of the remaining wounds. You won't like that cuz it goes against what you incorrectly want KB to do. Whatever way it is only the remaing wounds on the targets profile. It doesn't matter how many are there. It's all you get. Say for example the model had 7 wounds but is now down to 3..KB triggers you can take 1 slay the other 2 and you only get +3 combat res. or you slay all 3 and get +3. Only difference is what you want it to do.
You demanded I show you a rule that says you cause a wound..I don't need to, that is what the roll to wound is for. it is a direct part of the game process.
Show me the rule that says you discount or ignore the wound you rolled on the chart?
You 'slay' doesn't cut it..there are many ways you slay. Some of which cause wounds (like KB)

-Lets see here, you admit special effects change things, well that's good cause KB does as much
-Poison attacks and the wind globes have no matter in the discussion of KB, they are a different special rule that is quite different from KB
-Automatic hits and wounds, once again irrelevant to KB
-Yup KB doesn't work if you skip the chart, and that's important for what?
-And yes KB ignores AS, nothing new there
-Ummm not really on this part, it says on the to wound roll of a 6
-Okay i see where your going with this, once again you provide no evidence, you are just assuming, and just to point out for the millionth time, KB comes into effect on a "to wound roll of a 6" not a WOUND, to keep saying as much is trolling as its been pointed out over and over.
-Oh now your saying you don't have to show evidence because your assuming that KB causes a wound cause it rolls on the to wound chart???? Like above, it says it slays, not cause wounds. This is again trolling
-Um... no one is saying that? I don't understand what your asking, discounting rolls? KB comes into effect on the roll of a 6, there's no point in the wound generated by the 6, because the target is slayed. Unless the target is MI, in which case KB doesn't work and the 6 stands as a wound. There is no discarding the 6 or the wound it would generate if KB didn't come into effect. These are two different things, not one.
-And again you say KB causes wounds..... with no evidence it does as much... Trolling

I have a few questions for you, these will be hard

1) Point where in the rule book that KB causes wounds

2) Show me where an effect cannot take place during a game step?

*edit
Sorry for being kind of rude, but I really dislike trolls, like really really dislike trolls. If you cannot answer these 2 questions, and respond with insults and assumptions with no evidence, you then are a troll. If you respond nicely because you can't show evidence and answer the questions, then your case that KB is negated by Ethereal is over. If you actually answer these questions with evidence, then we will see what happens, my guess another 5 pages of the same arguments, or one side admitting defeat.

Niteware wrote:
Seriously? Yes, the killing blow does nothing to the MI or MC. BUT YOU STILL ROLLED TO WOUND!. As the KB had no effect, you continue in the normal process. How do you not get that? By your logic, any character with KB could ONLY wound on a 6, because else KB is not effective. Ridiculous.

You seem to have confused yourself here, not surprising really when you have a bunch of you arguing that KB suddenly becomes a magical attack....

You and your ilk are essentially arguing that when you roll a 6 to wound in combat the special "killing blow effect" comes into play which can remove things from the table despite them being immune to that wound. Is that not correct? I know it is. You're arguing that a 6 doesn't cause a wound it causes a slay. So being that it's says that killing blow is "only effective against infantry, cavalry and warbeasts" (p72) but in no place does it say it does not come into effect; in fact it says "if a model with the killing blow special rule roles a 6 to wound in close combat, he automatically slays his opponent". Crikey it even says it there in black and white "rolls a 6 to wound", something you cannot do to ethereal without a magic source of wounding.

So following that order, where are you getting your wound for MI or MC? KB is after all ineffective against them and you've replaced the wound with the killing blow effect going off, right?

The truth is, of course, they do suffer that wound because, although they are immune to the killing blow wound, they are not immune to being wounded.

I'm not going to call anybody any idiot here, but some of you have talked yourself into a special kind of stupid if you think a non magical KB attack can somehow hurt an ethereal model.


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fattymac04 wrote:
*edit
Sorry for being kind of rude, but I really dislike trolls, like really really dislike trolls. If you cannot answer these 2 questions, and respond with insults and assumptions with no evidence, you then are a troll. If you respond nicely because you can't show evidence and answer the questions, then your case that KB is negated by Ethereal is over. If you actually answer these questions with evidence, then we will see what happens, my guess another 5 pages of the same arguments, or one side admitting defeat.

You should be sorry, the whole tone of your post is insulting and dismissive.

You dismiss a poster, who has been perfectly courteous (more so than yourself), and his well presented arguments as trolling and then start handing out ultimatums as if you've been appointed as some sort of arbiter when, quite frankly, your arguments have been the most poorly presented and structured out of anybody posting in this thread.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

fattymac04 wrote:

-Okay i see where your going with this, once again you provide no evidence, you are just assuming, and just to point out for the millionth time, KB comes into effect on a "to wound roll of a 6" not a WOUND, to keep saying as much is trolling as its been pointed out over and over.
-Oh now your saying you don't have to show evidence because your assuming that KB causes a wound cause it rolls on the to wound chart???? Like above, it says it slays, not cause wounds. This is again trolling
-And again you say KB causes wounds..... with no evidence it does as much... Trolling

Just because you keep repeating something (baselessly and rudely I'll add) doesn't make it so.

1) Point where in the rule book that KB causes wounds

It is a function of rolling to wound which happens as part of the rolling to wound stage, the wounds it does (if any) are counted towards combat resolution. It counts the EXACT amount of WOUNDS that have been done for combat resolution when you are counting up the WOUNDS you have done. If you roll a 6 against MI or MC and they fail their armor saves etc it does a WOUND. if you are susceptible to KB you may take a ward save if you have one to stop those WOUNDS. Ward saves can be used to prevent WOUNDS (p44).

Is that clear enough for you on the whole wounding thing? Because if it's still unclear I think you are the one who needs accusing of trolling

It counts the EXACT amount of WOUNDS that have been done for combat resolution when you are counting up the WOUNDS you have done.

Combat resolution isn't a wound. You've been shown this already and repeatedly ignored it. Lots of things cause combat resolution. Having a banner. Having more ranks. Do those cause wounds? The section on combat resolution has no effect whatsoever on order of combat, to hit, wounding. It comes after all that stuff.

Ward saves can be used to prevent WOUND

So can armor saves. So can init saves. So can LD rolls. So can regen saves. But that doesn't mean if you take a LD roll you're suffering a wound. A hammer can hit a nail but that doesn't mean a nail can only be hit by a hammer or a hammer can only hit a nail. Again, basic logic. A blade of realities ignores ward saves, according to your logic that means it can't cause wounds. Because everything has a 1:1 relationship in the WHFB universe. Strength can only be used in attacks and can't be used to prevent destruction in Dwellers.

You're kind of new here, Boomer. I'd suggest browsing around the forums a bit and maybe reading up on the rules before going full on river troll.

DukeRustfield wrote:
Combat resolution isn't a wound. You've been shown this already and repeatedly ignored it. Lots of things cause combat resolution. Having a banner. Having more ranks. Do those cause wounds? The section on combat resolution has no effect whatsoever on order of combat, to hit, wounding. It comes after all that stuff.

Yes lots of things cause combat resolution and they have there own section dealing with them. Combat resolution for killing blow however is dealt with under the WOUNDS INFLICTED (p52) and it very clearly tells you to the count the number of WOUNDS that were INFLICTED in combat by killing blow.

So can armor saves. So can init saves. So can LD rolls. So can regen saves. But that doesn't mean if you take a LD roll you're suffering a wound. A hammer can hit a nail but that doesn't mean a nail can only be hit by a hammer or a hammer can only hit a nail. Again, basic logic. A blade of realities ignores ward saves, according to your logic that means it can't cause wounds. Because everything has a 1:1 relationship in the WHFB universe. Strength can only be used in attacks and can't be used to prevent destruction in Dwellers.

However ward saves cannot be taken to stop instant kills unless specified otherwise. You can take a ward save against KB, you know why? Because it isn't a T test or any of the other utterly irrelevant things you've mentioned. It's a special type of WOUND that does all the remaining WOUNDS on your profile, and said WOUNDS are counted for combat res.

Your argument boils down to "if you roll a 6 to wound a slay replacement effect comes into play". Being that it says nothing about KB turning off when attacking MI/MC but that it is only ineffective (not "not in effect") against them, how do you wound them when you roll a 6 and not discount the "ineffective" killing blow which has replaced the wound?

It's simple, killing blow is an effect of wounding something, if you can't wound it in the first place then you cannot killing blow it. NOT ROCKET SCIENCE.

Additionally this doesn't even take into account characters that would have an item that made them killing blow immune where they normally fulfill all the requirements for KB to work. Do they ignore all rolls of 6 to wound them?

You're kind of new here, Boomer. I'd suggest browsing around the forums a bit and maybe reading up on the rules before going full on river troll.

Yeah and I've kinda been playing GW games since the early 80's (never mind the fact I've been registered here a full year before you lol) and I would suggest that you get some manners and a real argument instead of insulting me with your troll comment just because you know you're waving an empty sack.

If we're making thinly veiled insults... er I'm mean "suggestions" I'd suggest you try and work on your reading comprehension and sense of reason.

BooMeRLiNSKi wrote:
You can take a ward save against KB, you know why?

Read the rules.

Really. Stop and read them.

They tell you that the results of a successful Killing Blow can be negated. (Ward saves already can negate wounds. Why is this extra bit needed then?)
Note that you also get to save the Wound dealt by the same six with it.

RAW means the text.
The text states you are wrong.

editing to add:
I play Tomb Kings.
Most of my Army book does not make sense.
Calling this one thing out as "obviously meant to be played differently" and people who defending the actual rules as "rules lawyers" is childish and simply has no place in a discussion.
The rules DO state this.
Mis-reading, mis-applying, or simply not liking a rule does not change the actual rule.
(Of course, feel free to house rule anything - just be an adult and admit it.)

KB does not "suddenly become magical" because it does not need to.
It slays. Ethereal does not stop a model from being slain.


Full stop.

Boom are you making up rules? because it sure looks like it, i cant find anywhere in the BRB to rules you are talking about.

I still don't get your insistence on the whole MI and KB thing, its been covered and bears no relevance to the argument at hand.

once again I will post this:

QUOTE ("BRB p.44")
"Instant Kills"
Some special attacks don't inflict wounds, but require models to be removed as casualties... Where this is the case, not only are no saves of any kind allowed (unless specified otherwise), but the number of wounds on the victim's profile is completely irrelevant - just remove the model from play....

QUOTE ("BRB p.68")
ETHEREAL
...Ethereal creatures can only be wounded by spells, magical attacks and magic weapons or effects....

QUOTE ("BRB p.72")
KILLING BLOW
If a model with the Killing Blow special rule rolls a 6 to wound in close combat, he automatically slays his opponent - regardless of the number of wounds on the victim's profile. Armor saves and regeneration saves cannot be taken against a Killing Blow. A ward save can be attempted - if passed, the ward save prevents all damage from the Killing Blow....

QUOTE ("BRB p.51")
REMOVE CASUALTIES
With saving throws made or failed, you now need to remove the slain. Close combat casualties are removed in the same way as shooting ones....

I wanted to outline these in this specific order to reach the following logical conclusions:
The first rule states that some rules cause "instant kills" and do not inflict wounds. "(unless specified otherwise)" is bolded to reflect how Killing Blow is not an exception to this "instant kill" rule as KB offers a ward save (tying it to the bold in the KILLING BLOW rules quote above).
Ethereals are immune to non-magical wound generators. As Killing Blow is not causing wounds as explained in the first bullet point above, Ethereal does not get around the Killing Blow effect.
KILLING BLOW states that it "slays" an opponent. REMOVE CASUALTIES ties the phrase "slain" (past tense of "slay") to the phrase "close combat casualties". "Casualties" is also explicitly stated in the first rule above for "Instant Kills", thus reaffirming that KILLING BLOW falls under the aegis of the "Instant Kills" rule.

Killing Blow removes casualties without causing wounds if the target fails to make a ward save. Ergo, Ethereal does not ignore Killing Blow.


Now this is what the the argument on hand is for KB to work on Ethereal, your job is to prove it wrong, if you can't do so it stands as working. And so far all you have been doing is trolling and making up rules and bringing up stuff that doesn't even matter to this argument. So please stick to the argument at hand and try to prove this wrong.

The main problem here is that you need to reference many rules outside the rule itself in an attempt to prove how KB works.
Just because it uses the word slays proves nothing and that is the entire basis of your reasoning behind KB vs. Ethereal.

Bottom line..
What is the purpose of rolling to wound for every single weapon. In the game?
They all follow the same process unless directed otherwise.
Every time you roll to wound it follows the same process.
Your claim that it does not say you caused a wound is just as useful as it does not say you 'do NOT' cause a wound.
But the game process and flow shows that a wound is caused.
KB never instructs you to break process it only expands on it.
If you were supposed to deviate.it tells you specifically to deviate.
Every time you roll a 6 to wound you wound. That is game process. Trying to change an Idea in the roll to wound section to prove a point about KB shows just how outlandish the idea is.
The KB rule itself provides the information needed.
KB does not tell you to change anything other than no armour save.
The term slays is irrelevant to the process.
Dies. Chokes. Kicks the bucket. Anal prolapse..all irrelevant because they DO NoT change the combat process.

KB never tells you to leave.
Again...it is a process after the wound. Just like d3 or d6

Rolling a six ALSO causes a wound.

That gets ignored.
Ethereal still does not ignore being slain, regardless.

So it is.

DukeRustfield spelled that out wonderfully, with implications that I had not read until now.

I love how you state that the written rule is irrelevant for RAW, also.

re:

 Peasant wrote:
The term slays is irrelevant to the process.

BooMeRLiNSKi wrote:
Combat resolution for killing blow however is dealt with under the WOUNDS INFLICTED (p52) and it very clearly tells you to the count the number of WOUNDS that were INFLICTED in combat by killing blow.

Okay, you really are a troll.

Because you went ALL CAPSLOL and quoted the page of text that does not exist. First off, it's combat resolution, for the 30th time which has nothing to do with wounding someone. You do not roll on combat resolution to see if you're wounded. The page on wounding (surprise) is where you find the totality of those rules. Further, it does not say Killing Blow inflicts wounds, it tells you KB COUNTS AS HAVING SCORED (LOOK, CAPS!). Because combat resolution is about calculating your score, not inflicting wounds. It's also not about movement. Or to hit.

This thread is basically over if the only people who can try and debate it repeatedly make up rules that have no mention at all in any source. And when asked to answer simple questions and back up their claims, they ignore them. So fine,

pg. 68 under Ethereal, says DOESN'T BLOCK KILLING BLOW.

Can't get clearer than that. Not sure how we missed it.

 Peasant wrote:
The main problem here is that you need to reference many rules outside the rule itself in an attempt to prove how KB works.
Just because it uses the word slays proves nothing and that is the entire basis of your reasoning behind KB vs. Ethereal.

Bottom line..
What is the purpose of rolling to wound for every single weapon. In the game?
They all follow the same process unless directed otherwise.
Every time you roll to wound it follows the same process.
Your claim that it does not say you caused a wound is just as useful as it does not say you 'do NOT' cause a wound.
But the game process and flow shows that a wound is caused.
KB never instructs you to break process it only expands on it.
If you were supposed to deviate.it tells you specifically to deviate.
Every time you roll a 6 to wound you wound. That is game process. Trying to change an Idea in the roll to wound section to prove a point about KB shows just how outlandish the idea is.
The KB rule itself provides the information needed.
KB does not tell you to change anything other than no armour save.
The term slays is irrelevant to the process.
Dies. Chokes. Kicks the bucket. Anal prolapse..all irrelevant because they DO NoT change the combat process.

KB never tells you to leave.
Again...it is a process after the wound. Just like d3 or d6

You actually need to reference several rules to explain how most things work. Killing Blow is a type of instant kill (which says explicitly that they don't caus wounds), so both of those rules are needed. So are all the rules for CC. Then for Combat Resolution.

Anyway, the thread is clearly done unless:
1 You can show that KB is not an instant kill, as defined in the BRB
2 You find a section of the BRB that directoy bears, which you have not yet quoted (as all current objectionshave been debunked)
3 You can persuade GW to quickly change the RAW in the FAQ

It can be hard to rail back after losing a debate - no need to concede, just stop posting. Or keep going because ir is funny.

 kirsanth wrote:
Rolling a six ALSO causes a wound.

Finally 167 posts to get a partially correct response.
Rolling a six ( you need to remove the 'also') causes a wound.
As stated, that is the whole purpose of rolling to wound.
Every time you are asked to roll to wound you are rolling to wound.

Ethereal still does not ignore being slain, regardless.

No one has ever said Ethereal can not be slain. This is another part of the difficulties.
Slain and slay are NOT rules. The terms are used when referencing models that are to be removed as casualties.

I love how you state that the written rule is irrelevant for RAW, also.

re:

 Peasant wrote:
The term slays is irrelevant to the process.

This comment also hints towards your difficulties. You are taking words and sentences and taking them out of context, applying your own usage, or not keeping them with the other words/sentences that keep them in context.
I did say that slays is irrelevant, because
1. 'slays'/slain is not a rule so it does not affect RAW
2. 'Slays' (along with slain) is a descriptive term used for models that are to be removed as casualties that have lost all of their wounds. When your model is dead or killed. Like BRB pg51 In the Remove casualties section..."with saving throws made or failed, you need to remove the slain.' or BRB pg 106 Excess wounds..."If a character is slain and suffers more wounds than he has on his characteristic profile..."
So yes slay/slain is irrelevant to RAW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Niteware wrote:


You actually need to reference several rules to explain how most things work. Killing Blow is a type of instant kill (which says explicitly that they don't caus wounds), so both of those rules are needed. So are all the rules for CC. Then for Combat Resolution.

My continued error not to be 100% specific and list several examples..
You do need to reference several rules...when instructed to do so to follow the process of the game.
You are partially correct..
Instant Kills don't cause wounds.
KB is NOT an instant kill once again the reasons why..
1.For instant kills you take, T, S, Ld, I, or some other test that does not use wounds.
2. You rolled to wound.
KB never tells you to go anywhere else. All you need is within the rule for KB it does not require additional rules and it fits in the flow of game process..
You are making an incorrect assumption that it is an instant kill which is what is lengthening this thread based on the incorrect notion of what 'slays' means and that it doesn't specifically say you cause a wound.
Can you find any other times you roll to wound and don't use your roll to wound to wound??

Anyway, the thread is clearly done unless:
1 You can show that KB is not an instant kill, as defined in the BRB
2 You find a section of the BRB that directoy bears, which you have not yet quoted (as all current objectionshave been debunked)
3 You can persuade GW to quickly change the RAW in the FAQ

Yes this thread is nearly done.
I have shown that KB is not an instant kill several times and several ways. I should probably list them again...
1. You roll to wound with KB. Instant kills you do not
2. You take characteristic tests with instant kills. You do not take them with KB.
3. KB is never referred to as an instant kill.
4. KB never says remove as a casualty, nor remove from play.
5. KB uses slay (present tense of slain) to describe the death of the model just as slain is used many times through all books.

Your part 2 I don't fully understand...I will guess you mean a section that directly shows something??
Ahh, is this an alter-ego??? the last part of section 2 is awfully reminiscent of another poster around here??
I have given rules, pages and logic to show how KB works within the game process through rolling to wound, how its effects that work like d3 and the fact that if you wound automatically you do not use KB. KB does not say remove from play. KB does not say remove as casualty. KB does not force the opponent to take characteristic test like instant kills do.

I have repeated myself because the only bits of 'debunking'.(where have I heard that before ) have been the same as the base argument which is weak at best.
Let me repeat that argument for you..
KB says you 'slay' and it does not say you cause a wound.
Both have been refuted.
1. 'slay' and 'slain' are game terms not rules. Can you show any examples of slay or slain as a game rule?? ..Other than your incorrect notion with KB.
2 Outside of your incorrect notion on KB, Can you show an example of rolling to wound where it is not going to be the process to wound??
3. KB does not specifically state that a wound is caused because it does not need to..that is why you rolled to wound. If you were supposed to ignore it you would be specifically told to.
Do you have anything to add other than 'slays' and you aren't told to?
4. Rolling to wound to not cause a wound is not part of gaming process nor does it make any sense.

It can be hard to rail back after losing a debate - no need to concede, just stop posting. Or keep going because ir is funny.

It can be hard to rail back after losing a debate and I can understand your difficulties in conceding. It's o.k. I will forgive you.
I am pretty funny. Pretty smart too.

fattymac04 wrote:
Boom are you making up rules? because it sure looks like it, i cant find anywhere in the BRB to rules you are talking about.

Be specific and I'll quote you a page number.

I still don't get your insistence on the whole MI and KB thing, its been covered and bears no relevance to the argument at hand.

I have shown multiple times how if it were played in the horribly convoluted and nonsensical way that is being suggested it would not work, you would not wound monstrous infantry.

You are arguing that when you roll a 6 to wound the killing blow "slay" effect comes into play as a replacement effect on the to wound roll, that is on the roll to make where you see if you wound..

Let me super clear:

1 :roll dice to wound
1-5 WOUND
6 Killing Blow Slay effect which is not a wound and replaces the wound

2: Check type of model you are attacking: It's a Monstrous Infantry which killing blow is ineffective against nothing happens.

Now, please tell me where (and quote page number) where it says killing blow turns off against MI and MC? All I see is in the description is that it's ineffective against them. That doesn't say it is not in effect, does it?

QUOTE ("BRB p.44")
"Instant Kills"
Some special attacks don't inflict wounds, but require models to be removed as casualties... Where this is the case, not only are no saves of any kind allowed (unless specified otherwise), but the number of wounds on the victim's profile is completely irrelevant - just remove the model from play....

You forgot the bit that says "after failing a T or LD test for example"

Please show me the page number in the BRB where it refers to killing blow as an instant kill, I only have the bit where it shows it as a a special result when rolling to wound.

QUOTE ("BRB p.68")
ETHEREAL
...Ethereal creatures can only be wounded by spells, magical attacks and magic weapons or effects....

Yes and killing blow happens when you ROLL TO WOUND.

QUOTE ("BRB p.72")
KILLING BLOW
If a model with the Killing Blow special rule rolls a 6 to wound in close combat, he automatically slays his opponent - regardless of the number of wounds on the victim's profile. Armor saves and regeneration saves cannot be taken against a Killing Blow. A ward save can be attempted - if passed, the ward save prevents all damage from the Killing Blow....

Please show me where slay is listed as a term in the BRB.

I only have it on

p3 description of WOUNDS

Quote
Large monsters and mighty heroes are able to withstand several wounds that would slay

p25 on fleeing
p31 on hex spells
p52 on WOUNDS INFLICTED
p87 on war machines where is describes how it can "slay fearsome monsters with a single shot"
p103 on overkill "if one model slays the other then any excess wounds they inflicted above and beyond those needed to slay the opponent"
p109 shooting at war machines "the crews armor save is still used to prevent any wounds inflicted, as it is they the attack is attempting to slay"
p111 on receiving bolt thrower hits "the bolt fails to slay a target

There are a few more examples in there if you really want me to further prove my point. All of them descriptive and funnily enough all of them referring to situations where you lose wounds. No listing for a slay rule though. I'm happy to do this for slain and slaying to if you like.

QUOTE ("BRB p.51")
REMOVE CASUALTIES
With saving throws made or failed, you now need to remove the slain. Close combat casualties are removed in the same way as shooting ones....

So casualties caused by wounds are slain to?

I wanted to outline these in this specific order to reach the following logical conclusions:
The first rule states that some rules cause "instant kills" and do not inflict wounds. "(unless specified otherwise)" is bolded to reflect how Killing Blow is not an exception to this "instant kill" rule as KB offers a ward save (tying it to the bold in the KILLING BLOW rules quote above).
Ethereals are immune to non-magical wound generators. As Killing Blow is not causing wounds as explained in the first bullet point above, Ethereal does not get around the Killing Blow effect.
KILLING BLOW states that it "slays" an opponent. REMOVE CASUALTIES ties the phrase "slain" (past tense of "slay") to the phrase "close combat casualties". "Casualties" is also explicitly stated in the first rule above for "Instant Kills", thus reaffirming that KILLING BLOW falls under the aegis of the "Instant Kills" rule.

You've come to some conclusions just not logical ones.

If it were an instant kill it would refer to itself and reference the rule, it does not. If it were an instant kill there would be no need to say it doesn't allow you an armor or regeneration save as instant kills allow no saves. What you are showing is confirmation bias. I have shown you above what slays mean, it's a descriptive term most often used with the removal of wounds.

Killing Blow removes casualties without causing wounds if the target fails to make a ward save. Ergo, Ethereal does not ignore Killing Blow.

No, killing blow happens on a 6 when you roll to wound, which you cannot do to ethereal without a magic weapon, ergo you cannot killing blow wound something that you cannot wound in the first place.

Now this is what the the argument on hand is for KB to work on Ethereal,

Yes and it is laughable

your job is to prove it wrong,

Oh that's been done a long time ago.

if you can't do so it stands as working.

As it stands everybody plays it exactly as I have said, tournaments, shops, the lot. Don't let your moment of confusion delude you to the wider reality of the world.

And so far all you have been doing is trolling and making up rules and bringing up stuff that doesn't even matter to this argument. So please stick to the argument at hand and try to prove this wrong.

You have no idea what a troll or trolling is either.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DukeRustfield wrote:

Okay, you really are a troll.

Lack an argument? Just accuse the person you're conversing with of trolling!

You guys need to stop this. You clearly have no idea what a troll or trolling is.

Because you went ALL CAPSLOL and quoted the page of text that does not exist. First off, it's combat resolution, for the 30th time which has nothing to do with wounding someone. You do not roll on combat resolution to see if you're wounded. The page on wounding (surprise) is where you find the totality of those rules. Further, it does not say Killing Blow inflicts wounds, it tells you KB COUNTS AS HAVING SCORED (LOOK, CAPS!). Because combat resolution is about calculating your score, not inflicting wounds. It's also not about movement. Or to hit.

Which page and what bit would that be exactly? Be specific.

This thread is basically over if the only people who can try and debate it repeatedly make up rules that have no mention at all in any source.

Explain yourself

And when asked to answer simple questions and back up their claims, they ignore them. So fine,

Which has been done for you. Just because you have no solid argument don't try and crow victory whilst running out of the door.

pg. 68 under Ethereal, says DOESN'T BLOCK KILLING BLOW.

Can't get clearer than that. Not sure how we missed it.

Don't be an idiot.