I'm thinking of modeling some Sisters into Chaos Chosen for a squad in my army, but I'm not sure if this would be fluffy or not any examples of sisters serving with chaos forces?
Don't let that stop you from doing it if you really want to, though. They're your models, you bought them, and so you can customize them however you want.
Not by fluff genuinely, but there is in fact precedence for this. Sandy Mitchel's Ciaphias Cain has a very powerful psyker mind control an entire sisters convent and used them as his body guard, and im sure I read somewhere that a sister turned to slaanesh and became a powerful chaos lord(et?).
ALEXisAWESOME wrote: Sandy Mitchel's Ciaphias Cain has a very powerful psyker mind control an entire sisters convent and used them as his body guard
Mind control is not corruption, and a psyker is not necessarily a chaos worshiper. There is even a spell in the game to “control” a unit. The psyker in this story just had the chance that those Sisters didn't pass their Deny The Witch roll .
Yeah, it really depends on which fluff you look at.
Examples: Codex - 0 examples, quote "utterly incorruptible" Dark Millennium - 1 example (Miriael Sabathiel), special because she's an exception from the rule, quote "what a triumph for chaos, what a twisted champion" Daemonifuge - an entire convent of Sisters being corrupted and turning against one another [image 1][image 2]
In short, as with many such details in 40k, it's a matter of opinion, preferences, and interpretation - similar like how you could, in theory, also have Chaos GKs (given that they are obviously not entirely immune according to the Bloodtide fluff in their own Codex), and yield a lot of different opinions from the fans for this.
My own opinion is that I don't like the idea of there being loads of Chaos Sisters, as it doesn't synch with the very image and theme of the army (purity and power of will), yet at the same time I like the idea of there being room for exceptions as I feel that a lack of absolutes just feels more realistic. As such, my own recommendation would be to not field an entire unit of these girls, but perhaps rather just a single one as a member of your HQ squad. I have seen this in someone's army many years ago and it looked awesome. Why not even field Miriael herself? Her backstory as a Warlord of the Pyrus Reach is rather cool.
2x210 wrote: I'm thinking of modeling some Sisters into Chaos Chosen for a squad in my army, but I'm not sure if this would be fluffy or not any examples of sisters serving with chaos forces?
It is as fluffy and original as female Space Marines, Chaos Tau and Chaos Grey Knights.
Lynata wrote:Yeah, it really depends on which fluff you look at.
Examples:
Codex - 0 examples, quote "utterly incorruptible"
Dark Millennium - 1 example (Miriael Sabathiel), special because she's an exception from the rule, quote "what a triumph for chaos, what a twisted champion"
Daemonifuge - an entire convent of Sisters being corrupted and turning against one another [image 1][image 2]
In short, as with many such details in 40k, it's a matter of opinion, preferences, and interpretation - similar like how you could, in theory, also have Chaos GKs (given that they are obviously not entirely immune according to the Bloodtide fluff in their own Codex), and yield a lot of different opinions from the fans for this.
My own opinion is that I don't like the idea of there being loads of Chaos Sisters, as it doesn't synch with the very image and theme of the army (purity and power of will), yet at the same time I like the idea of there being room for exceptions as I feel that a lack of absolutes just feels more realistic. As such, my own recommendation would be to not field an entire unit of these girls, but perhaps rather just a single one as a member of your HQ squad. I have seen this in someone's army many years ago and it looked awesome.
Why not even field Miriael herself? Her backstory as a Warlord of the Pyrus Reach is rather cool.
I like that idea of just having one Fallen Sister
Kroothawk wrote:
2x210 wrote: I'm thinking of modeling some Sisters into Chaos Chosen for a squad in my army, but I'm not sure if this would be fluffy or not any examples of sisters serving with chaos forces?
It is as fluffy and original as female Space Marines, Chaos Tau and Chaos Grey Knights.
Ahhh it's not dakka without a thinly veiled insult, ohh no I'm
not being original in 40k, never in the history of this great game has an idea been repeated until I rode forth on my steed of ignorance thank you ohh wise forum member for showing me the error of my unoriginal fluff killing question.
In the end, though, it's your models and your money. Do as you will with it. It's just not a question that doesn't come up every couple weeks... along with Chaos Tau, Chaos GK, Fem-Marines... half-Eldar, half-Kroot Marines...
... I might have made the last one up. If I did, then *that's* original... and fluff-ignoring.
2x210 wrote: I'm thinking of modeling some Sisters into Chaos Chosen for a squad in my army, but I'm not sure if this would be fluffy or not any examples of sisters serving with chaos forces?
It is as fluffy and original as female Space Marines, Chaos Tau and Chaos Grey Knights.
Ahhh it's not dakka without a thinly veiled insult, ohh no I'm not being original in 40k, never in the history of this great game has an idea been repeated until I rode forth on my steed of ignorance thank you ohh wise forum member for showing me the error of my unoriginal fluff killing question.
You asked, then don't complain about a straight answer.
This forum is flooded with threads about Chaos Sisters (mostly boob themed), Chaos Grey Knights, Chaos Tau, and female Space Marines, rarely as finished armies but mostly as naughty ideas not worth realizing for that small kick.
I still think that a Chaos worshiper could very well take the armour of fallen sisters and equip their/her/its retinue with it - just to try and convince the followers of the Emperor that he has corrupted the uncorruptable.............
It would be far more effective psycologyically than say Chaos Gray Knights as thats just yet another fallen Astartes..........and virtually no one kows of their special qualities whereas pretty much the whole Imperium knows the purity of the Adepta Sororitas (now that Vandires dead )
To be honest, only the Grey Knights are truly immune to Chaos corruption. Because they were made that way.
Sisters of Battle, though most having a strong will and blind faith, are still humans at heart. Humans can be corrupted by the Chaos Gods.
So, yeah, it's not that common, but a sister's mind can still have doubts or desires, and succumbs to chaotic temptations.
Besides, in codex: Grey Knights, the story about the Blood Tide says that only a part of the sisters managed to stay pure. It implies not all of them were able to do so.
Not really the same about Chaos Grey Knights, to be fair. About Chaos Tau...well...the Greater Good mainly comes from the Ethereal's influence. If they're not around anymore (or worse, one being corrupted), it's not so stupid sounding than it is. Remember Farsight?
Keep an open mind, that's from where Chaos will come in.
I suppose one could argue that they are not so much incorruptable but rather their souls are pledged to another Power in the Warp and hence already claimed
Mr Morden wrote: I suppose one could argue that they are not so much incorruptable but rather their souls are pledged to another Power in the Warp and hence already claimed
Which is a way to see this, but not covered by the official fluff at all.
Unless you see all Sisters of Battle as copies of Saint Celestine under disguise. That's not the case as well.
They are fanatic and overzealous, true, but they are still humans. Nothing like superhuman giants made with the Emperor's own DNA so that they can fight Chaos Demons.
Mr Morden wrote: I suppose one could argue that they are not so much incorruptable but rather their souls are pledged to another Power in the Warp and hence already claimed
That´s my take on it too.
I find Chaos Sisters unfluffy but really interesting for obvious reasons. They look cool if properly done: google "sisters of slaanesh" or have a look at the dakka dakka gallery.
By the way, the GK hasn´t fallen to chaos yet, just like sisters if you ignore Sabathiel. And Sisters are protected by the Emperor, all of them.
You could have a convent on a world cut off and 'submerged' by a warp storm for hundreds or even thousands of years. It will cut off the astronmican and potentially the emperors protection. Being exposed to the warp for that length of time would corrupt anyone (barring 'i'm better than everyone' lysander).
Bear in mind the galaxy is vast, too vast for the written fluff to cover everything. Plus being so vast increases the possibility of anything happening.
I don't see it as unfluffy. Anyone can fall to chaos IMO. What is said in a codex or anywhere else is not an absolute but the view of someone in universe.
And THAT is the main problem with Chaos Sisters.
Nurgle Sisters ? Khorne Sisters ? Tzeentch Sisters ? For some oh so strange reason, nobody seems to have any interest in that. Slaanesh Sisters ? Of course, hurr durr durr, women are for sex lolol 1!11!
Well, last time I checked Sisters were much more violent bellicist than hedonistic artists. Are they not ?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Hey, I may add that to my sig.
Sarouan wrote:To be honest, only the Grey Knights are truly immune to Chaos corruption. Because they were made that way.
And yet we are told they need the blood of innocents to protect themselves against corruption in their very own Codex.
Sarouan wrote:Sisters of Battle, though most having a strong will and blind faith, are still humans at heart. Humans can be corrupted by the Chaos Gods.
And yet we are told they are "utterly incorruptible" in their very own Codex. Kind of like the GKs.
Do you see the connection?
Sarouan wrote:About Chaos Tau...well...the Greater Good mainly comes from the Ethereal's influence. If they're not around anymore (or worse, one being corrupted), it's not so stupid sounding than it is. Remember Farsight?
Well, going solely by GW's own material ...
"Blunt: All Tau have virtually no psychic presence in the Warp. To the daemon, they appear as a shifting will-o-the-wisp rather than the burning fire that represents a human's soul. As such, Tau can never have psychic powers. All daemons, daemonhosts and other denizens of the Warp attempting to detect a Tau have -50% to their Awareness rolls and must roll even when the Tau is in plain sight." - Inquisitor RPG
The "Ethereal influence" too is nothing that was ever said in a core studio source (unless this changed with the newest supplement? I haven't read that one yet) - just the Black Library "Xenology" book, which also claims that Ork blood is green, or that Tau have normal feet rather than hooves.
Poly Ranger wrote:You could have a convent on a world cut off and 'submerged' by a warp storm for hundreds or even thousands of years. It will cut off the astronmican and potentially the emperors protection. Being exposed to the warp for that length of time would corrupt anyone (barring 'i'm better than everyone' lysander).
What protects the Sisters is their faith in the Emperor, not the Emperor himself. Still, I think your idea could work - because even if the original crew of that convent would manage to remain untouched, they'd still die of old age. They would have no access to either the rejuvenation treatments, nor new recruits from the Schola Progenium, and be forced to conscript new novices from the local population. Yet the convent would lack the experience of the Drill-Abbots and the Sisters Famulous to properly train these kids - perhaps they would even only recruit them at the age of novitiate (~12) rather than educating them from birth as how it happens to Schola students, which would surely affect the "level of indoctrination" of these second generation Sisters..
Over centuries, perhaps even millennia, it would be unavoidable for local culture to seep into the convent walls, exactly how it happens to the Space Marine Chapters.
And that's before you get into potential genetical and/or spiritual corruption by the Warp.
In a way, it ties into the same concept as Mr. Morden's idea - or perhaps rather a compromise between outright fakes and true Sisters, in that they are the fallen descendents of an actual lost convent.
Poly Ranger wrote: You could have a convent on a world cut off and 'submerged' by a warp storm for hundreds or even thousands of years. It will cut off the astronmican and potentially the emperors protection. Being exposed to the warp for that length of time would corrupt anyone (barring 'i'm better than everyone' lysander).
Bear in mind the galaxy is vast, too vast for the written fluff to cover everything. Plus being so vast increases the possibility of anything happening.
Interstingly, IIRC, the current Sisters codex has a detachment of Sororitas going down to a planet that has been submerged for hudreds of years, several of the Holy sites are still intact and protected.....................
Depending on how you see the Emperor - or peharps the "Soul of the Imperium" entity that has arisen in the last 10 millenia- his protection in the Warp may still be just as effective...........might even explain a certain Grey Knight wondering around the Realm of Chaos - the Champion of another Power......
Depends I think on what you believe Faith actually is in the 40 Universe.........given that the Gods are real enough and act through their chosen followers directly.
It's more about having the components to repel the demonic curse or not, in fact. You know, "virgin's blood", that kind of (evil) thing.
The "Ethereal influence" too is nothing that was ever said in a core studio source (unless this changed with the newest supplement? I haven't read that one yet) - just the Black Library "Xenology" book, which also claims that Ork blood is green, or that Tau have normal feet rather than hooves.
That doesn't mean Tau can't be misleaded or tricked. Sure, their "soul" would be useless, but Chaos doesn't need that. It just needs puppets to fulfill its purposes.
About the sisters, it's just that in an universe where entire legions of Space Marines, genetically modified super soldiers with an iron will, still fell to Chaos, I don't see why Sisters of Battle would be completely immune to failure just because they are female humans who have faith in the Emperor. Even female Inquisitors can be corrupted, after all - and everyone knows the way Inquisitors are chosen is even harsher than the way sisters are raised.
A sister's faith can be as pure as the Emperor's Light itself, sure. But for each story of a miracle happening by His Divine Hand, how many untold ones where a sister fails because temptations were too strong or her will was not enough? Infamy and corruption tend not to be those you like to tell when you want to praise the qualities of an army in a codex.
There are stories about the harsh life of a Sister of Battle, meaning only the best survive. That doesn't mean those who failed (and mostly died) never existed.
Yeah, corrupted sisters are interesting. Because that means there is an unusal story behind, explaining why they failed and got corrupted...
And THAT is the main problem with Chaos Sisters.
Nurgle Sisters ? Khorne Sisters ? Tzeentch Sisters ? For some oh so strange reason, nobody seems to have any interest in that. Slaanesh Sisters ? Of course, hurr durr durr, women are for sex lolol 1!11!
Well, last time I checked Sisters were much more violent bellicist than hedonistic artists. Are they not ?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Hey, I may add that to my sig.
Just an example. There is a truly good-looking "Sisters of Slaanesh" project out there, and I knew it.
I just google "Sisters of Khorne" and so on. There is some stuff going on for all of them. Mostly for Khorne.
Oh, and Slaanesh is not really about sex, it is about excess and the search of perfection. A Sister obsessed with becoming the greatest warrior of her Order may fall to S. Fulgrim and the rest didn´t fall because they liked sex.
Why does it have to be Sisters of Battle wearing the female proportioned power armour? Kill a whole convent, loot the armour, give to some handy female cultists, ???, profit.
Its not like the armour is magically powered by the will of the emperor or something (well, unless you believe the cogboys )
Also, those 'Sisters of Khorne', and basically any Sister of Chaos seems to be scantilly-clad and shaped like the current beauty ideal.
That's not really specific to Chaos Sisters, in fact. All "evil females" game models are generally showing more flesh than they should with lot of leather and pointy things.
Sarouan wrote: To be honest, only the Grey Knights are truly immune to Chaos corruption. Because they were made that way.
Sarouan wrote: Besides, in codex: Grey Knights, the story about the Blood Tide says that only a part of the sisters managed to stay pure.
Ah, but at the same time, it says that the Grey Knights were "needing" their blood ritual to protect against the Bloodtide. If they hadn't had some pious blood on hand...?
And I, for one, think it is far more badass to be immune to intense Chaotic corruption via sheer force of will rather than blood magic.
It's more about having the components to repel the demonic curse or not, in fact. You know, "virgin's blood", that kind of (evil) thing.
There is some stuff here and there about Grey Knights using Blood rituals, and using the blood of innocents to repel demons. They are really dark. However this proves that they are not completely safe. They need to do a lot of stuff to keep Chaos away from their souls.
About the sisters, it's just that in an universe where entire legions of Space Marines, genetically modified super soldiers with an iron will, still fell to Chaos, I don't see why Sisters of Battle would be completely immune to failure just because they are female humans who have faith in the Emperor. Even female Inquisitors can be corrupted, after all - and everyone knows the way Inquisitors are chosen is even harsher than the way sisters are raised.
Space Marines are easily prey to Chaos because of their pride. Sometimes I think they were purposefully created this way. There is a really good quote in Daemonblood, a short story by Ben Counter, that illustrates this.
Spoiler:
"What curiously small creatures you are to present such a thorn in my side." The words roared and rumbled through the air, thick with dark amusement. "What little bundles of ignorant flesh. I am Parmenides, called the Vile, chosen Prince of Nurgle. I am the virus which the Plague God sends to infect your mortal worlds. I am the festering in your wounded empire. Do creatures as insignificant as yourselves have names too, I wonder?"
"Sergeant Castus of the Ultramarines, Second Company", the Marine replied in a defiant voice, as if he were trying to impress the daemon prince.
The horrific gaze turned to Aescarion, questioning.
"I would not give you my name, though it cost my soul", the Battle Sister snarled, and she gripped her axe tighter.
Guess who fell.
On the other side, Sisters are protected by the Emperor, or by their faith in the Emperor, or something. Opinions differ, but there is something that protects them. There is a ritual in Terra all of them must perform to become Sisters. I always thought that was the key.
They are not immue to falling but its very hard for them to be corrupted since well their minds are pretty infertile. Their sheer belief and indoctrination is that strong.
Plus it does not matter anyway khorne just enjoys watching these girls go. Plus slaanesh enjoys how they burn/purge heretics in many ways. Even if its very hard to make them fall to chaos they still fuel it anyway, I remember the time when you beat the tau in warhammer soulstorm the cannoness offered up the ethereal skull to the emperor and then I facepalmed.
On the other side, Sisters are protected by the Emperor, or by their faith in the Emperor, or something. Opinions differ, but there is something that protects them. There is a ritual in Terra all of them must perform to become Sisters. I always thought that was the key.
Priests of the Ecclesiarchy are also protected by the Emperor, or their faith in Him, or something. It didn't stop some of them to actually rebel against the Imperium, or worse. Age of Apostasy, anyone?
Oh, sure, Adepta Sororitas was created after this. Still, their ancestors fought for the wrong man for a while. And they did really bad things.
Beside, if Sisters of Battle were completely immuned to corruption (and thus failure), there wouldn't be anything like Repentia sisters or Penitent Engines (no, that's not just for male priests)...
That's why I don't buy the whole "Saint Celestine purity alike with no exception". That would be just dull, to be honest; what makes a hero interesting is that he can fail. Perfect heroes all the time are boring; if he can succeed without any doubt, why even bother to tell his story?
Sarouan wrote:It's more about having the components to repel the demonic curse or not, in fact. You know, "virgin's blood", that kind of (evil) thing.
Certainly - but that means the GK's protection, even if it would be infallible, would not be an inherent thing.
What would they have done if there would've been no Sisters on that world to sacrifice? It would mean not having access to this component you are speaking of, and thus ... corruption?
Sarouan wrote:That doesn't mean Tau can't be misleaded or tricked. Sure, their "soul" would be useless, but Chaos doesn't need that. It just needs puppets to fulfill its purposes.
Absolutely. Just saying that Tau, at least in GW's version of 40k, are somewhat protected by essentially "being missed" by the daemonic forces.
Can't whisper into their dreams (provided they do dream) if you can't locate their "soul-light".
Sarouan wrote:About the sisters, it's just that in an universe where entire legions of Space Marines, genetically modified super soldiers with an iron will, still fell to Chaos, I don't see why Sisters of Battle would be completely immune to failure just because they are female humans who have faith in the Emperor.
That's because unlike the Space Marines, whose recruits have a perfectly normal life until being recruited at the age of ~10, and whose Chapters are afflicted by local culture, and whose genetic purity is at best questionable in a worryingly high number of Chapters, the Sisters of Battle are raised in the Schola Progenium from infancy, deeply indoctrinated by the Ecclesiarchy's Drill-Abbots, before being trained as novices by the Sisters Famulous who have personnel specialised in teaching young children proper values, before they finally end up in the isolated convents of a penitent organisation penitent organisation where constant hardship, deprivation and arduous work are part of an unrelenting devotional regime, and where the slightest deprivation from approved stricture can invite the harshest punishments, up to and including transfer into the Repentia. If there really are some who are at risk of "not making the cut" even with the painful, cleansing ministrations of their mistresses, they would seem to have a rather high chance at martyrdom with an Eviscerator in their hands before they fall.
In short, whereas the Space Marines remember their roots, where they have pride and arrogance, where they focus entirely on war and heritage, what shields the Sororitas is their fanatical religious conviction that there is a higher power protecting them, and that they serve a greater, a divine purpose, by doing a god's work rather than just some great man's.
In the case of the Sisters of Battle, ignorance really is a blessing.
I usually refrain from pointing to Black Library, but I found this excerpt from Ben Counter's short story "Daemonblood" to be a perfect illustration of where I think the difference lies, and how it affects them:
"What curiously small creatures you are to present such a thorn in my side." The words roared and rumbled through the air, thick with dark amusement. "What little bundles of ignorant flesh. I am Parmenides, called the Vile, chosen Prince of Nurgle. I am the virus which the Plague God sends to infect your mortal worlds. I am the festering in your wounded empire. Do creatures as insignificant as yourselves have names too, I wonder?"
"Sergeant Castus of the Ultramarines, Second Company", the Marine replied in a defiant voice, as if he were trying to impress the daemon prince.
The horrific gaze turned to Aescarion, questioning.
"I would not give you my name, though it cost my soul", the Battle Sister snarled, and she gripped her axe tighter.
"Such a shame", Parmenides replied. "But the girl I can understand. Her mind is most infertile. What has she ever questioned? They teach her and she believes."
In a way, due to their cloistered life (even more cloistered than the already monastic warrior monks of the Adeptus Astartes, by way of their childhoods), they are even more brainwashed - and perhaps this is why they have "the blood of innocents", as the GK Codex puts it.
Sarouan wrote:Even female Inquisitors can be corrupted, after all - and everyone knows the way Inquisitors are chosen is even harsher than the way sisters are raised.
Really? I kind of doubt that, given that the Sororitas believe that "the purpose of life is to suffer"...
You have some Inquisitors that are recruited out of the Black Ships, but that is neither all of them, nor does this mean they didn't have a normal childhood (until they were found out anyways).
Then you have others that grew up in the Schola Progenium - which happens to be the same place that potential novices for the Adepta Sororitas grow up in, just that Sisters have to add a 5-year novitiate in the "tender" care of the Orders Famulous on top of that, and that unlike with Inquisitors, we were told that a progena would have to grow up in the Schola "from birth" to be eligible for the Sisterhood.
Most Inquisitors, though, seem to be made out of the ranks of Acolytes that senior Inquisitors recruit into their cadre, and those can come from any vocation - as long as they have useful talents and display suitable loyalty to the cause. The 3E Witch Hunter Codex had some fluff about that.
Sarouan wrote:Yeah, corrupted sisters are interesting. Because that means there is an unusal story behind, explaining why they failed and got corrupted...
Agreed. Which is why I much prefer the idea of them being one-offs rather than groups.
Sarouan wrote:Priests of the Ecclesiarchy are also protected by the Emperor, or their faith in Him, or something. It didn't stop some of them to actually rebel against the Imperium, or worse. Age of Apostasy, anyone?
Well, technically, priests don't grow up like Sisters do, and neither do they live in similarly prohibitive/"extreme" environments.
And Goge Vandire was no priest, he was a High Lord of the Administratum who ursurped the title after he killed the real Ecclesiarch.
Mr Morden wrote: Interstingly, IIRC, the current Sisters codex has a detachment of Sororitas going down to a planet that has been submerged for hudreds of years, several of the Holy sites are still intact and protected.....................
Only a few of them, actually, the “Reliquary of Hope” being the only one mentionned. On an ex Shrine world turned Daemon world.
da001 wrote: I just google "Sisters of Khorne" and so on. There is some stuff going on for all of them. Mostly for Khorne.
Oh, it's true. I never thought to try that, actually. It's just that every time I saw someone planing to do Chaos Sisters, it was always Slaaneshi Sisters.
I found some Tzeentch Sister model, and some Khornate Sister model (which for some reason, decided to have holes in her armor just where her boobs are. Go figure…). And some story about a Nurglate Sister, which started ok, until… wait, what, she is removing her armor to give this wounded guardsman STD ? What the feth am I reading ? Oh, yeah, 1d4chan, let's get out of here !
The Tzeentch model was very cool though.
da001 wrote: Oh, and Slaanesh is not really about sex, it is about excess and the search of perfection.
That's why I spoke of them not being hedonistic artists. Unlike Fulgrim, at least for the artist part, IIRC.
But the reason why people want to do Slaaneshi Sisters is really not that hard to guess, is it ?
shinros wrote: They are not immue to falling but its very hard for them to be corrupted since well their minds are pretty infertile. Their sheer belief and indoctrination is that strong.
Plus it does not matter anyway khorne just enjoys watching these girls go. Plus slaanesh enjoys how they burn/purge heretics in many ways. Even if its very hard to make them fall to chaos they still fuel it anyway, I remember the time when you beat the tau in warhammer soulstorm the cannoness offered up the ethereal skull to the emperor and then I facepalmed.
I remember that part too. Other imperial forces enjoy doing things like that. For instance, the White Scars used to collect skulls and self-mutilate themselves (thus the scars).
In the background, the Ecclesiarchy does not care much about specifics. You can sacrifice children to the Serpent-God Glycon as long as you accept that Glycon is part of the Emperor. And if you worship the Emperor and pay your tithes you are a perfect citizen.
However, the "infertile mind, sheer belief and indoctrination" does not protect from Chaos. Most Space Marines blindly follow orders and are heavily indoctrinated (or brainwashed), they lack critical emotions like fear, and yet they fall all the time.
da001 wrote: I just google "Sisters of Khorne" and so on. There is some stuff going on for all of them. Mostly for Khorne.
Oh, it's true. I never thought to try that, actually. It's just that every time I saw someone planing to do Chaos Sisters, it was always Slaaneshi Sisters.
I found some Tzeentch Sister model, and some Khornate Sister model (which for some reason, decided to have holes in her armor just where her boobs are. Go figure…). And some story about a Nurglate Sister, which started ok, until… wait, what, she is removing her armor to give this wounded guardsman STD ? What the feth am I reading ? Oh, yeah, 1d4chan, let's get out of here !
The Tzeentch model was very cool though.
Yeah I was reading that story right now!
da001 wrote: Oh, and Slaanesh is not really about sex, it is about excess and the search of perfection.
That's why I spoke of them not being hedonistic artists. Unlike Fulgrim, at least for the artist part, IIRC.
But the reason why people want to do Slaaneshi Sisters is really not that hard to guess, is it ?
At the cost of sounding hypocritical, I do not think so. If Slaanesh were just that, I will not like it (her /him /whatever). And I think anyone with the will to do a proper conversion will probably agree.
Same goes for the rest. If Khorne was "the god of angry, really angry", nobody will like it. As the "god of war" depicted in the old background, he has many followers.
It is like saying that the Sisters are "Nuns with Guns".
da001 wrote:However, the "infertile mind, sheer belief and indoctrination" does not protect from Chaos. Most Space Marines blindly follow orders and are heavily indoctrinated (or brainwashed), they lack critical emotions like fear, and yet they fall all the time.
They would not be Chaos Marines if they had not fallen prey to their own pride and arrogance - or the corruption of their leaders. And Primarchs really were not indoctrinated in any way, which - in combination with their troops' adoration for them - makes them a prime risk for dragging others down.
da001 wrote: However, the "infertile mind, sheer belief and indoctrination" does not protect from Chaos. Most Space Marines blindly follow orders and are heavily indoctrinated (or brainwashed), they lack critical emotions like fear, and yet they fall all the time.
In a space marine chapter, ambitious members get promotions. In a sisters of battle order, the humble (and of course competent, they are not that stupid) member are forced to accept promotion as a penance. Makes a world of difference.
da001 wrote: At the cost of sounding hypocritical, I do not think so.
Maybe not all of them, just 99,99% of them.
da001 wrote: If Slaanesh were just that, I will not like it (her /him /whatever).
Well, that's very good. But doesn't prevent the fact that there is a lot of immature people who sees Slaanesh as the god of sex, and sisters as sexual (because women ), and hence want to do Slaaneshi sisters.
Hence as I said Lynata their minds are infertifle just like it was said in the daemonblood short story.
They are heavily indoctrinated personally I still wonder how Miriael Sabathiel fell in the first place they don't explain in the short story.
Plus the fact that she corrupted a bounty hunter chasing her with ease wonder how she did that reading the short story it was like he was now her pet. Considering what sisters do to themselves and to people they consider heretics. I would rather meet a khorne sister than a slaanesh one. As a fan of slaanesh I do agree that its sad when most people think slaanesh is only sex heck the sex aspect of slaanesh is like only the third ring of his/her plane I highly doubt that slaanesh will even shift slightly to followers who only try to win favor through that aspect.
Slaanesh likes people who can corrupt others(this is the thing he/she likes the most considering slaanesh whole plane is about trying to corrupt people and after reading the liber chaotica slaanesh, Black crusade and tome of excess this is the case), who are uber amazing at the art they do be it painting, war, music or food.
More than anything sex is like the first step to clutch people and after wards they would be pretty desensitized to sex pretty quickly I bet all the slaanesh champions most likely see it as a tool to corrupt others when trying to win favor I don't even think sex cross their minds its corrupting others they are more interested in.
I am reading Miriael wiki page and she has also corrupted some Sisters of Battle from the Order of the Argent Shroud here is the extract from the wiki. A full mission of sisters of battle of the Order of the Argent shroud vowed on Ophelia VII to capture Miriael. All of them swore themselves to Slaanesh after being overwhelmed by the unholy will of Sabathiel. When did this happen? How did she do this? Well anyway she has a badass tongue that can bite people slaanesh has awesome mutations.
I don't think anyone on this forum would want to meet a uncorrupted Sister -(never mind one who was the pawn of dark gods) - they would burn us alive if we were lucky......
If she was "blessed" by Slaanesh (or even possessed by one of its Daemons) she may well have inhuman powers of persuasion.......................someone on the fourm did once talk about Slaaensh being eternal hunger for perfection - something that can never be achieved or satisfied - no matter how well you do something.
Sex is certainly something for Slaaesh followers to experience - especially Astartes as at least at first its new and different - drugs they already do and violence is aprt of their life. But like eveything else it will quickly pale as they become jaded................
There will be politics in the Sororitas - it may just take different forms.............
True reading the black crusade rulebook and tome of excess slaanesh has some crazy skills when it comes to interaction. One time in a group a slaanesh cultist charmed another player and they rolled opposed interaction tests.
The slaanesh cultist destroyed the other player in terms of bonuses.
Well reading the short story she is not possessed but corrupted by a slaanesh daemon/prince. Since she mentions the name in the short story, man that daemon prince has crazy corruption skills.
Well Kharn was almost corrupted to slaanesh worship he lost quite a lot of his warriors to the whispers of the slaanesh cultist/daemon.
Mr Morden wrote: I don't think anyone on this forum would want to meet a uncorrupted Sister -(never mind one who was the pawn of dark gods) - they would burn us alive if we were lucky......
Nah, I will just hold them back with… the power of lip-service and being a closet atheist !
Just quote Sebastian Thor in the right context and you'll be fine !
If you don't want upset the kanon purists, they could be a chaos versions of the sisters of battle, like created on a demon world by a demon prince as a pet project.
Well reading the short story she is not possessed but corrupted by a slaanesh daemon/prince. Since she mentions the name in the short story, man that daemon prince has crazy corruption skills.
Not sure you could read it either way - you can have daemon/s in there with you exercising partial or total control. She might even be dead and the corpse animated - Chaos can do loads of things to feth with people....................It may be in the daemons interest to make everyone think that she is still herself.....
Or its exactly what is seems - corrupted Sister.......
its really the readers choice I think as its unlikely we will ever get anything more about her? Unless anyone has written any decent fan ficiton about her?
Also, those 'Sisters of Khorne', and basically any Sister of Chaos seems to be scantilly-clad and shaped like the current beauty ideal.
That's not really specific to Chaos Sisters, in fact. All "evil females" game models are generally showing more flesh than they should with lot of leather and pointy things.
Jehan-reznor wrote: If you don't want upset the kanon purists, they could be a chaos versions of the sisters of battle, like created on a demon world by a demon prince as a pet project.
That's exactly how I'd be tempted to do it if I were going for it, but knowing how I am for completing projects it'll never happen. My general excuse is the whole 'army' is a black crusade, therefore it covers everything you could imagine chaos bringing to the field allowing me a never ending project to play with (and lot's of excuses for shiny new things). I was considering slaanesh sisters too I can't deny it but that is purely based on miriael as she's the one of the few bits of 'official' lore but it does present a problem with people making poorly understood assumptions as the thread has already shown.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:But doesn't prevent the fact that there is a lot of immature people who sees Slaanesh as the god of sex, and sisters as sexual (because women), and hence want to do Slaaneshi sisters.
The "nunsploitation" bit is probably a huge factor and problem in the fandom, especially considering that the 40k fandom - unfortunately including dakka, if one were to look at certain debates on this forum - does not exactly come off as an enlightened community concerning gender issues. Yet at the same time I feel it would also be wrong to deny this facet entirely just because the fans are taking it to the extreme. Indeed, looking at the army and its background, I have to say that in my eyes, Slaanesh does fit best, simply because it can possibly turn one of their strengths into a weakness.
Their violence is too focused for Khorne. They are too obsessed about purity for Nurgle. And they are too structured and altruistic for Tzeentch. Now, what's left? The excess of Slaanesh's many pleasures, with which they have zero experience at all. They just avoid them entirely, which makes them all the more dangerous once exposure actually happens. This exposure would be a rare occurrence as they actively shield and isolate themselves from it due to their lifestyle, but there are some rather obvious cracks in this armour when you think about it, for the Sisters' lifestyle is a kind of extreme in its own right, from the acceptance they seek from their leaders to their flagellantism in the pursuit of self-cleansing. I imagine it is held in check by the convents' rigid system of mutual control and voluntary confession, though. More dangerous, however, would be exposure when they are away from the convent and on their own, their Order's isolation no longer shielding them from the outside world. It does make me wonder how the Sisters Sabine cope with the effects of "going native" in the pursuit of their duties as infiltrators... It is the Order and the sheltered life that makes a Sister focus her faith into a shield that armours her soul. Take her out of the Order and you compromise her.
Anyways, as you can see, I'm kind of split on the issue - on the one hand I do not wish to see the Sororitas reduced to some of the smut you see on 1d4chan, but at the same time I believe that denying the validity of Slaanesh as a conduit would be a kind of "reverse-sexism", similar to saying that CSM shouldn't follow Khorne because fighting is so manly. Let's just forget about gender entirely and look at what these organisations stand for and how they live. That the connection of Sisters + Slaanesh opens a rather obvious door for fanservice is coincidence, nothing more.
shinros wrote:They are heavily indoctrinated personally I still wonder how Miriael Sabathiel fell in the first place they don't explain in the short story.
She's a Champion of Slaanesh and mentions a Daemon Prince as her boss, and we know that she was a prisoner of the Emperor's Children for some time. My own guess is she broke under a combination of physical and psychic torture, but that is of course just speculation.
shinros wrote:Plus the fact that she corrupted a bounty hunter chasing her with ease wonder how she did that reading the short story it was like he was now her pet.
She wounded him with her daemonic blade - he actually appears to be dying as the Canoness spots him, if you notice her description of him. As his life slips away, Miriael affords him comfort, and finally healing. Maybe her blade did something to him, or maybe it was just because people act differently when they are dying. Perhaps there is an opening in resolve that can be exploited?
I also found this line remarkable:
"Daemon princes sing, and my blood quickens. Soon, yours will quicken too."
Miriael seems to be a skilled corruptor, which makes her a dangerous warlord. In the TCG, there was a special card just for that - "Sabathiel's Corruption", played to infiltrate other units.
shinros wrote:Considering what sisters do to themselves and to people they consider heretics. I would rather meet a khorne sister than a slaanesh one.
It'd probably be over a lot quicker, yeah.
shinros wrote:I am reading Miriael wiki page and she has also corrupted some Sisters of Battle from the Order of the Argent Shroud here is the extract from the wiki. A full mission of sisters of battle of the Order of the Argent shroud vowed on Ophelia VII to capture Miriael. All of them swore themselves to Slaanesh after being overwhelmed by the unholy will of Sabathiel. When did this happen? How did she do this?
This bit would actually seem to be fan-fiction. Her only presence, at least as far as I'm aware (and believe me I spent a lot of time searching), in officially licensed material are the Dark Millennium TCG and the accompanying short story by Dan Abnett.
Which is a bit unfortunate, come to think of it - I'd really love to read more about her. A Fallen Sororitas who happens to be a Chaos Champion with a cursed blade and her own battleship, a bodyguard of CSM Terminators and Daemonettes, and an army of cultists to unleash upon the worlds of the Pyrus Reach? That's just badass.
shinros wrote:Well anyway she has a badass tongue that can bite people slaanesh has awesome mutations.
Man her card sounds awesome that does truly show her skill with corrupting people. I can see your point all the other gods they can deal with but slaanesh is a giant question mark to them since their whole life is about penance and denial.
In the tome of excess in black crusade and some parts of liber chaotica it says that slaanesh normally targets the pure and the churches considering their life style.
Thats why I love slaanesh so much since slaanesh is about corruption of the pure. Reading your post slaanesh sisters make a lot of sense compared to the gods now that I think about it.
In various rpg background I love the characters that are good at corrupting people hence slaanesh became my favorite god straight away, its still sad that slaanesh is the least popular of the 4 it does not help that in fluff he/she normally gets shafted in terms of books and games. Reading fulgrim was awesome.
Lynata wrote: Their violence is too focused for Khorne.
Hum, what ?
Lynata wrote: They are too obsessed about purity for Nurgle.
Nurgle never advertise with “Become a bloated horrible monster”, and as far as I know, most of it's follower either don't know what to expect beforehand or are already sick and bloated and everything before they accept Nugle's patronage to be delivered from it.
Lynata wrote: Anyways, as you can see, I'm kind of split on the issue - on the one hand I do not wish to see the Sororitas reduced to some of the smut you see on 1d4chan, but at the same time I believe that denying the validity of Slaanesh as a conduit would be a kind of "reverse-sexism", similar to saying that CSM shouldn't follow Khorne because fighting is so manly.
Answer is simple, make some Slaneeshi sisters that are as much about sex as the noise marines are. You can make them high on drug and noise music, and obsessed with religious art or something.
shinros wrote:Man her card sounds awesome that does truly show her skill with corrupting people
Some examples from her set:
Spoiler:
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:Hum, what ?
They don't kill for pleasure, they don't experience a thrill. They are driven by a rather focused hatred targeting a specific group of people - those deemed impure - whilst at the same time protecting others and believing in a firm set of divine ideals justifying, even demanding their actions as a means of indebted service to their god. Most of all, they are a military organisation with an extreme sense of discipline, structured into small "family units" of squads with a tighter, maternal sense of cohesion missing from the Astartes.
Really, I think the only chance Khorne would have would be to prey on their anger, but as often as it may flare up in direct confrontation, it simply doesn't persist long enough, as they pray and meditate way too much to become unsettled by their emotions. In short, they prize their calm demeanour, and as much as outbursts of fury are welcomed as a sign of holy zeal, as little do the Sororitas have patience for loose cannons who have trouble following orders.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:Nurgle never advertise with “Become a bloated horrible monster”, and as far as I know, most of it's follower either don't know what to expect beforehand or are already sick and bloated and everything before they accept Nugle's patronage to be delivered from it.
That's the thing - Sisters don't get sick and bloated in the first place. They live in a cleaner and more controlled environment free from the pollution of the underhives or the unwashed masses of the people, and they have access to the skills of the Orders Hospitaller, who undoubtedly number amongst the Imperium's most skilled healers. And even if a supernatural illness would somehow overcome their willpower-based defenses, then the rest of the convent would soon discover this and take appropriate measures. She'd be put out of her misery before she'd have a chance to fall.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:Answer is simple, make some Slaneeshi sisters that are as much about sex as the noise marines are. You can make them high on drug and noise music, and obsessed with religious art or something.
Rather non-religious art, considering that they're surrounded by the ever-same style of expensive religious art all their life. Garish, aggressive colours, chaotic graffiti expressing a free spirit, that sort of thing.
Or perfection in martial arts.
Even fashion. Long, colourful hair as opposed to regulation bobcut?
Drugs are a good option, too. Hell, it could even just be sugar, or more exotic food in general. Gluttony instead of fasting!
Still, I wouldn't leave sex out entirely just because they're women. That is just as wrong as focusing entirely on it.
Priests of the Ecclesiarchy are also protected by the Emperor, or their faith in Him, or something. It didn't stop some of them to actually rebel against the Imperium, or worse. Age of Apostasy, anyone?
Vandire didn´t rebel against the Imperium. He was the Imperium. Heretics and rebels rebelled against him.
I was concerned about GW retconning this and changing Vandire into a Chaos puppet. But they didn´t. He was a High Lord of Terra. A tyrant, but not corrupted by Chaos. That´s good. It adds depth and diversity to the background.
Beside, if Sisters of Battle were completely immuned to corruption (and thus failure), there wouldn't be anything like Repentia sisters or Penitent Engines (no, that's not just for male priests)...
Corruption does not equal failure. Punishment for the slightest mistake does not mean worshipping the Dark Gods.
That's why I don't buy the whole "Saint Celestine purity alike with no exception". That would be just dull, to be honest; what makes a hero interesting is that he can fail. Perfect heroes all the time are boring; if he can succeed without any doubt, why even bother to tell his story?
Agreed. That´s why bolter porn is so boring. That´s why so many people like to talk about Sisters and Grey Knights falling to Chaos.
But then again, they are (at best) extremely hard to corrupt. Thousands of Space Marines (and countless millions of imperial citizens) will fall before a single Sister or Grey Knight does. (off-topic note: what about the Forces of Order, the Adeptus Arbites?).
If GW ever publishes a story about a Sister being corrupted, I will like to see a Miriael Sabathiel story, or something similar. Not a footnote on a "Codex: More Space Marines" about a full Preceptory falling to Slaanesh and being wiped out by a company of marines. That would be a sad day.
Their violence is too focused for Khorne. They are too obsessed about purity for Nurgle. And they are too structured and altruistic for Tzeentch. Now, what's left? The excess of Slaanesh's many pleasures, with which they have zero experience at all. They just avoid them entirely, which makes them all the more dangerous once exposure actually happens.
If we are going to talk about sisters falling, I do not see why limit us to Slaanesh.
Khorne: a single Sister who sees her life as a constant war, an endless stream of violence.
Tzeentch: someone from one of the Order Famulous. Seriously... "the Order of the Key", "the Order of the Gate"... even their names sounds tzeentchy.
Nurgle: he is the corrupter by default. A disgusting sickness, unbearable pain, despair... In the background, most souls go to the warp after death. Some souls are valuable to Khorne, others to Slaanesh, others to Tzeentch, but Nurgle loves them all.
Just because you catch one of Nurgle's diseases (which are all of them) does not mean you have become a willing worshiper of the Plague God.
In all likelihood, a Sister who knows she has been infected by one of these plagues will, upon learning that there is no cure, simply swallow her boltpistol or, even more likely, have her Sisters turn their meltas and flamers upon her, so that Nurgle cannot even use her corpse.
Psienesis wrote: Just because you catch one of Nurgle's diseases (which are all of them) does not mean you have become a willing worshiper of the Plague God.
In all likelihood, a Sister who knows she has been infected by one of these plagues will, upon learning that there is no cure, simply swallow her boltpistol or, even more likely, have her Sisters turn their meltas and flamers upon her, so that Nurgle cannot even use her corpse.
Honestly that's what I see them doing if they ever got one of nurgles diseases, the more I think about it the more I agree with Lynata slaanesh makes the most sense she/he would know the buttons to press or what cracks there are in the sisters armor. I mean desire and excess is pretty broad and corruption is slaanesh's and his/her champions forte.
The fact that they are in constant prayer I think prevents khorne from getting a good grip now if they were constantly battling yeah I could see it. Tzeentch I think Lynata explained it well I don't think I will ever see a sister fall to tzeentch.
Oh and her cards seem really overpowered just sayin.
Lynata wrote: They don't kill for pleasure, they don't experience a thrill. They are driven by a rather focused hatred
Well, Khorne don't feed on hatred too ?
Lynata wrote: That's the thing - Sisters don't get sick and bloated in the first place.
Yeah. Yeah, I'm pretty sure Marines get sick all the time because they have a deficient immunity system and live in the thrash while feeding on rotting meat, while sisters always sanitize their hands before taking their bolters, and don't ever inhale too much promotheum vapor .
Sorry about the sarcastic tone, but the image was just too funny in my head . Remember how Mortarion was resistant to it's natal world diseases. If even that guy can fall sick because of Nurgle, Sisters can too.
Lynata wrote: Rather non-religious art, considering that they're surrounded by the ever-same style of expensive religious art all their life.
Well, it's precisely because they are surrounded by it that they can become obsessed with it !
Lynata wrote: Even fashion. Long, colourful hair as opposed to regulation bobcut?
The bobcut is AFAIK not official canon, just what the models have. Celestine don't have it.
Lynata wrote: Still, I wouldn't leave sex out entirely just because they're women.
Let me think of any GW-canon slaaneshi marine who is explicitly linked to sex in any way. Oh, can't think of one. No Doom rider, no Lucius the Eternal, … There are the slaaneshi daemon seducing by using among other stuff sex appeal, there is the very very basic seductress (find guy, seduce him via magic, feth him, and BANG ! Slaanesh. I kid you not !) from Ciaphas Cain, but I can't name one marine doing it. Well, you can still include sex if you want, though.
You're forgetting that 40K is now written for young teens, and thus amps up the violence while fleeing from any mention of sexuality.
Go back to the Realms of Chaos books, where it is stated that the Slaaneshiite's lusts lead their forces into committing acts of "lewd depravity" as they form up for battle, which were apparently so perverse, so filled with "prancing fopperies" as to actually offend the Blood God and cause hatred between Khornate units and Slaaneshi units... you could not, in those days, ally the forces of these two gods (nor could you do Tzeentch/Nurgle armies).
Slaanesh is the God of Vice and Perversion, in any form such things may take. Sex definitely figures quite heavily into Slaaneshi worship services (look how she got created, after all), as does drug use, intoxicants, and other hedonistic pleasures. Striving for perfection is an aspect of this, simply because that will lead to greater and greater acts to achieve it (if you look at a Slaaneshi body-builder, at first it's just weights, then its a change of diet and protein shakes, then it's steroids, then it's replacing the natural muscles of your body with synthetic plastics, and then it's replacing your limbs with these Warp-born bundles of corded muscle and glittering, multi-hued flesh.... and now it is eating from the dead purity of their "essence"... and now it is taking the purity of the essence of the living... you will not deny anything, man, woman, child or beast, your company, slave, nor will you allow them to deny you.... their essence.)
Psienesis wrote: Just because you catch one of Nurgle's diseases (which are all of them) does not mean you have become a willing worshiper of the Plague God.
In regards to Sisters, some studio material from GW's Inquisitor game has them being outright immune to Nurgle's Plague of Unbelief, in fact. Though one does get somewhat affected by it, she eventually overcomes it and recovers.
If I played "corrupted sisters" I would have them fall to the C'tan having been seduced with some sort of super tech to fight their Chaos foes. Or the Nightbringer might be able to permanently corrupt them... just a little bit, driving them to excesses of hatred.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:Well, Khorne don't feed on hatred too ?
That's why I've been saying they would essentially "pray it away". You could say they are too busy with looking up to the Emperor, perfecting their martial training, caring for one another, and doing penance for their sins (real or imagined) for such emotion to dominate their minds for prolonged duration.
I imagine their zeal to work like an on/off switch due to the heavy focus on meditation and the devotion to their holy work.
I'm not saying it could never happen - that would be hypocritical of my earlier statement in that I don't believe in such absolutes. What I am saying is that I just don't see the chance being as big as with Slaanesh .. which is already very, very small.
My own, personal "risk rating" in regards to the Sisters is basically: Slaanesh -> Khorne/Tzeentch -> Nurgle
With the span between Khorne and Tzeentch smaller than between Tzeentch to Nurgle, as the latter is so far away from what they stand for, yet I can think of a few risks involving Khorne or Tzeentch. The latter, for example, could perhaps try some uberconvoluted plan to shatter a Canoness'es resolve - ironically, the leaders of the Sisterhood are less innocent than the Sisters they command, simply because due to the very position they hold they have been exposed to the dirty truth behind the white veil that is Imperial propaganda. Their long service means their heart is steeled, but I could still see a slim possibility of becoming disillusioned when some complicated scheme results in several supposedly allied Imperial institutions betraying her Order and she'd have to decide between following orders or saving her Sisters. And that'd be the start of a very dangerous road... Just off the top of my head, mind you.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:Remember how Mortarion was resistant to it's natal world diseases. If even that guy can fall sick because of Nurgle, Sisters can too.
The difference is that the plague which raced through the Death Guard's fleet was of a supernatural origin, not a natural one. And to protect against this, you need faith, which you cannot instill just with a bunch of vat-bred organs.
From the Index Astartes article of White Dwarf #265:
"Transcripts of the Council of Charon, convened after the Heresy to ascribe responsibility, suggest that, unlike some of the other Primarchs, Horus did not need to resort to ritual possession to win the Death Guard to his side. Horus promised that under his rule the old order would fall, and a new age would dawn, a just age with right ensured by the mighty."
And later on:
"Whether he perceived, in those terrible hours, the loss of what he had once stood for, and the damnation he had wrought upon himself and his Legion, only Mortarion will ever know. Unable to endure the suffering any longer, Mortarion offered into the Immaterium himself, his Legion and his very soul in exchange for deliverance. A presence in the Immaterium answered, as though it had been waiting all along. In the depths of the warp, the Great God Nurgle, Lord of Decay and Father of Disease, called that debt and accepted Mortarion and the Death Guard Legion as his own."
So, in short, Mortarion suffered from the usual instability that had befallen most of the non-indoctrinated Primarchs, and later on he preferred betraying everyone in a moment where a Sister, as Psienesis said, would have simply killed herself - or would be executed by others.
As I said earlier, the indoctrination has its advantages - the Primarchs did not enjoy it, and due to their role acted as conduit for the corruption of their entire Legion.
And really, this sort of psychological resistance is the Sisters' chief hallmark, just like the Marines have a bonus in physical resistance from their implants. From GW's website:
"As the Chamber Militant of the galaxy-spanning Ecclesiarchy, the Sisters of Battle are fierce warriors that are equals to their brother Space Marines. What the Sisters lack in genetic enhancement they make up for in faith and devotion. No one is more devoted to the cause and cult of the Emperor than they."
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:Well, it's precisely because they are surrounded by it that they can become obsessed with it !
That ... no, this I cannot quite follow. When they are surrounded by such intricate decoration 24/7, I'd think it becomes normal and vanishes into the background. I'm sure there are moments where they would still focus on some beautiful pieces in the convent in quiet contemplation, but I can't see how they could become obsessed with it when they use it merely as a conduit to focus their thoughts, which revolve around much more important things.
Mostly the Emperor.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:The bobcut is AFAIK not official canon, just what the models have. Celestine don't have it.
"Official canon"?
... anyways, I would argue that: 1- Celestine has a bobcut, too, her hairs are merely subject to a strong wind 2- Celestine isn't a Battle Sister anymore, so regulations no longer apply 3- Celestine is only a model as well .. and only one, compared to the many SoB minis 4- There's also the artworks
Of course one could still debate it - I'm just surprised. I thought this was pretty much an accepted thing.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:Let me think of any GW-canon slaaneshi marine who is explicitly linked to sex in any way. Oh, can't think of one.
I'd say the Emperor's Children would qualify, given the descriptions of their conduct on Terra. Now, I don't believe that GW ever directly used the word "rape" (think of the kids!), but to deny this is, I think, on the same level as not noticing that the Codex fluff about the Scholas during the Age of Apostasy clearly implied child prostitution, or what the "exotic skills" are that the Brides of the Emperor had to employ to entertain Vandire.
"Denouncing the teachings of their former idol, they turned wholeheartedly to Slaanesh, giving the Prince of Chaos the same measure of devotion they had once shown to the Emperor. Slaanesh, in turn, bestowed visions of paradise on the Emperor's Children, a galaxy of ultimate freedom, where no evil was possible because every experience was a source of pleasure. The Legion's Chaplains exhorted their brothers to pursue this dream, to savour every sensation. The perfection of the Emperor's Children became perfect hedonism, limitless in its scope, unstoppable in its fury. [...]
With the concentration of Chaos around Terra, the Apothecaries and Sorcerers of the Emperor's Children drew on the power of Slaanesh to enhance their pleasures, wantonly desecrating not only their minds and bodies, but now their immortal souls as well. Daemons were summoned and set loose among prisoners, feasting on their flesh as they died, while the Space Marines themselves sought even greater excesses of carnage and carnality.[...]
While other Legions still maintain some semblance of the command structure they once possessed, the Emperor's Children who survived the inter-Legion wars now exist as cult-like bodies, their leaders ruling by force of will alone. The only focus of admiration for devotees of Slaanesh is senseless indulgence in physical pleasure, and so the leaders of warbands are the most violent, sadistic and debauched creatures imaginable." - WD #255
If you really cannot read between the lines here ...
Then again, as with many things in 40k, these are matters of interpretation. If you don't want to adopt my beliefs here, you could easily disregard them by thinking that perhaps sex is the one sensation that the EC are somehow unable to taste. I've been a fan of the "genderless Marines" theory, anyways, and nobody says that Slaanesh made them grow their sets back.
C'Tan don't "corrupt" things in the sense that Chaos does.
C'Tan, in fact, are completely physical-reality bound. They do not function in, exist in, or interact with the Immaterium in any way, or even really understand it... this is suspected to be the reason why they had such a hate-on for the Old Ones, though we're not given any concrete details (as the war between them and the Old Ones, prior to their meeting the Necrontyr, was a tale related by the Deceiver, it may have been fabricated).
Anyway I've decided upon a way to do this, rather than have a squad of fallen Soritas I'm going to convert up a Cannoness into a Fallen Female Inquisitor, skirting the whole fallen sisters thing. She'll be leading my Slaneesh or Khorne forces since I have a Nurgle and Tzeetnch Lord already, thinking of giving her the Burning Brand, sort of as a nod to the Sisters (they play with fire)
Anyway I've decided upon a way to do this, rather than have a squad of fallen Soritas I'm going to convert up a Cannoness into a Fallen Female Inquisitor, skirting the whole fallen sisters thing. She'll be leading my Slaneesh or Khorne forces since I have a Nurgle and Tzeetnch Lord already, thinking of giving her the Burning Brand, sort of as a nod to the Sisters (they play with fire)
Sounds cool to me. If people have an issue with Chaos Sisters, just call them female cultists. There are more to cultists than just meat shields - the Blood Pact are a professional body of soldiers. I can't think of any reason why there would not be a sisterhood of warriors dedicated to one of the chaos powers, or a particular daemon even, equipped and trained well, who just happen to have a passing resemblance to SoB
Psienesis wrote: Go back to the Realms of Chaos books, where it is stated that the Slaaneshiite's lusts lead their forces into committing acts of "lewd depravity" as they form up for battle, which were apparently so perverse, so filled with "prancing fopperies" as to actually offend the Blood God and cause hatred between Khornate units and Slaaneshi units...
So that's your explicit mention of sex ? Seems not so much more explicit than the current one. Also, I mentioned Doom Rider, and I don't think this character is very recent or anything.
Psienesis wrote: Sex definitely figures quite heavily into Slaaneshi worship services
Yet no slaaneshi marine character that I ever heard of never seemed to do anything explicitly sex-related…
Not saying it's logical or anything, but it's the way slaaneshi marine characters are treated by GW. So if you did otherwise with Sisters, it would stand out.
Lynata wrote: That's why I've been saying they would essentially "pray it away". You could say they are too busy with looking up to the Emperor, perfecting their martial training, caring for one another, and doing penance for their sins (real or imagined) for such emotion to dominate their minds for prolonged duration.
In normal circumstance, for the average sister, hey, no doubt. But in normal circumstance, the average sister won't fall to Slaanesh either. It takes a very special circumstance to make one specific sister fall to chaos. And I'm pretty sure having your whole convent slaughtered without being able to prevent it, and being tormented by voices or vision afterward, can make stopping your hate quite harder .
It would take similarly extreme circumstance for the Sister not becoming a repentia after enjoying the first glance of any kind of forbidden pleasure.
Lynata wrote: Now, I don't believe that GW ever directly used the word "rape" (think of the kids!)
Or sex, or anything directly related to sex. There IS a lot of subtext to be found, but nothing explicit. In keeping in tone with the rest of the fluff, just do the same with the Slaaneshi sisters.
They don't have explicit "The Emperor's Child thrust his purple-headed boltgun, the one he fondly referred to as 'The Big E', into the Eldar Farseer's quivering mound of love-pudding" type stuff because it's a wargame, not a creepy-trashy romance novel. Is that what you're looking for to prove that Slaanesh is, amongst other things, a god(dess) of way-kinky sex? You're flat-out not going to find that in almost any game that is not, explicitly, an 18+ game and titled something like "FATAL" or "The Book of Erotic Adventures" or "Exalted, First Edition".
At best (worst), it's been written for a PG-13 audience, and the nudity in its older art was reserved for non-sexual situations (being then defined as "artistic"... technically still defined as such, but that does not stop people from freaking out) but has fallen out of favor as the social mores have changed.
Though, doesn't one of the EC novels have them nailing a dude's dick to a board, and he gets off on it?
Lynata wrote: Now, I don't believe that GW ever directly used the word "rape" (think of the kids!)
Or sex, or anything directly related to sex. There IS a lot of subtext to be found, but nothing explicit. In keeping in tone with the rest of the fluff, just do the same with the Slaaneshi sisters.
A couple of quotes from ROC re the Emperors Children re their pleasures..........:
"...and yet in Slaanesh's boundless and pleasing mercy, I have only asked for your daughters. Surely you would not deny me my small enjoyments?"
"Whilst thier allies fought and died, the Emperor's Children salughtered more than a million people and rendered them down to create endless varieties of drugs and stimulants.. Countless thousands more died to give the Legionaires more direct, if cruder entertainment."
However, If you want lots of sex and violence with a great plot and dialogue - watch the Sparticus series - indeed the final series pretty graphically shows you what happens to the inhabitants of a sacked town........mutiple that by a million times and thats the Emperors Children rampaging on Earth - really unpleasent stuff.
Psienesis wrote: You're flat-out not going to find that in almost any game that is not, explicitly, an 18+ game and titled something like "FATAL" or "The Book of Erotic Adventures" or "Exalted, First Edition". ...
Though, doesn't one of the EC novels have them nailing a dude's dick to a board, and he gets off on it?
Ugh, read FATAL once, not as bad as everyone said but that might have just been my brain slowly melting and denying the reality of the situation.
Also I am almost certain that the EC novels have all kinds of messed up stuff in them, that particular situation could very well have been there.
Psienesis wrote: They don't have explicit "The Emperor's Child thrust his purple-headed boltgun, the one he fondly referred to as 'The Big E', into the Eldar Farseer's quivering mound of love-pudding" type stuff because it's a wargame, not a creepy-trashy romance novel.
They don't even have words like “rape” or “sex”, which are AFAIK also found outside of creepy-trashy romance novels !
I found it pretty bad, sometime hilariously. Like that part :
Although hill trolls crave the cortex and the surrounding cerebrospinal fluid, they savor the taste of the limbic system, most specifically the amygdala, basal ganglia, and hippocampus. Oddly, they always reject the thalamus, but devour the hypothalamus.
Really odd indeed, don't they know the wathevercampus is the best part ?
Also note I just stopped my quotation before the worse detail.
"The Emperor's Child thrust his purple-headed boltgun, the one he fondly referred to as 'The Big E', into the Eldar Farseer's quivering mound of love-pudding"
"The Emperor's Child thrust his purple-headed boltgun, the one he fondly referred to as 'The Big E', into the Eldar Farseer's quivering mound of love-pudding"
Surely someone is going to use that as a Sig
They are welcome to it! I had considered making the EC's reference "The Big D" but that did not pun enough... too direct.
Sarouan wrote: To be honest, only the Grey Knights are truly immune to Chaos corruption. Because they were made that way.
Sisters of Battle, though most having a strong will and blind faith, are still humans at heart. Humans can be corrupted by the Chaos Gods.
So, yeah, it's not that common, but a sister's mind can still have doubts or desires, and succumbs to chaotic temptations.
Besides, in codex: Grey Knights, the story about the Blood Tide says that only a part of the sisters managed to stay pure. It implies not all of them were able to do so.
Not really the same about Chaos Grey Knights, to be fair. About Chaos Tau...well...the Greater Good mainly comes from the Ethereal's influence. If they're not around anymore (or worse, one being corrupted), it's not so stupid sounding than it is. Remember Farsight?
Keep an open mind, that's from where Chaos will come in.
Actually GK aren't 100% safe. Read the changeling short story.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:In normal circumstance, for the average sister, hey, no doubt. But in normal circumstance, the average sister won't fall to Slaanesh either. It takes a very special circumstance to make one specific sister fall to chaos. And I'm pretty sure having your whole convent slaughtered without being able to prevent it, and being tormented by voices or vision afterward, can make stopping your hate quite harder .
It would take similarly extreme circumstance for the Sister not becoming a repentia after enjoying the first glance of any kind of forbidden pleasure.
All I'm saying the latter can happen more easily than the former - in your example, because Sisters tend to die together.
And don't get hung up on that "more easily" now. I have said before that I am advocating the possibility of one-off exceptions, not something routine.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:I do have an artwork with a seraphim without bobcut. The black one. I'm pretty sure it is from GW.
I'm pretty familiar with this artwork, because my own Sisters are black, and some people said it wasn't going with the fluff…
Then those people should question their common sense.
And yes, as far as I know that is a GW artwork - it also shows up in the Dark Millennium card game (where Ephrael is from), but I believe its first appearance is in the 3E Codex Witch Hunters.
Still: Here is a collection of every single piece of Codex art from both the 2E and the 3E book. Don't tell me you do not see a pattern!
Spoiler:
There'll always be some level of artistic licence involved in such pictures (armour and weapons tend to differ in details as well), but I do believe there is a certain level of consistency when comparing all of them.
That being said, it'd be easy to make the black buzzhead Seraphim fit in - she could have shaved her head as a sign of penance, or even is a former Repentia who was allowed to return to the fold.
Shaving heads is done in the Sororitas. It's part of the Vow of Repentance, and I think it could be used as an independent penance for smaller sins, too. Just a thought, however. I like to look for ways to make things "fit".
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:Or sex, or anything directly related to sex. There IS a lot of subtext to be found, but nothing explicit.
Carnality is commonly associated with sex.
But more importantly, when the Emperor's Children strive to savour every sensation, what makes you think sex is the one exception, and why? Because sex is "icky"?
I'm sorry, but I just don't think that is a realistic perspective in regards to the EC's activities, and to me it appears weirdly out of place in a setting that thrives on brutality, pain and base motives.
I am not advocating focusing on Slaanesh = sex; I believe I've said as much multiple times. But to just dismiss and disregard it entirely, as if it wasn't one of the best "gateway drugs" imaginable? That just sounds strange to me. As if we had US censors breathing down our necks (no offense to our American readers).
StarTrotter wrote:Actually GK aren't 100% safe.
If they would be, they wouldn't need blood paraphernalia.
I admit, at first I was confused as I read that, but then I considered that this is merely an extension of the GK's earlier fluff, rather than an outright contradiction.
"Yes, they are incorruptible ..... because they have special rituals and forbidden magicks that can enable them to shield themselves."
2x210 wrote: I'm thinking of modeling some Sisters into Chaos Chosen for a squad in my army, but I'm not sure if this would be fluffy or not any examples of sisters serving with chaos forces?
Lynata wrote:
What would they have done if there would've been no Sisters on that world to sacrifice? It would mean not having access to this component you are speaking of, and thus ... corruption?
Oh, but they knew most certainly. Because of Matt Ward.
That's an old joke, sorry. In fact, Grey Knights have badass diviners able to know in advance where and when they can send their cruisers so that they can stop in time the demonic tide. So, it is most certainly "thanks to" them that they came at the right time...and with the "right knowledge" about what they had to do.
That doesn't make Matt Ward a good writer, anyway. He's still crap when it is about writing a consistent background.
Absolutely. Just saying that Tau, at least in GW's version of 40k, are somewhat protected by essentially "being missed" by the daemonic forces.
Can't whisper into their dreams (provided they do dream) if you can't locate their "soul-light".
Of course, it would be difficult for demons to take over something the Tau don't seem to have. Unfortunately, being from the Warp have other means...after all, Tau are known for welcoming a lot of "allied races" in their Empire. What would happen if one of them was too close to the Immaterium, and thus able to create a door for demons to come in the material plane? When a demon has a host, it can do many other things to corrupt those puny mortals...
The fluff of 40k isn't always so absolute, after all. It has room for creativity from the very beginning, and that's why it's so popular. Maybe that will change with the years (like Kirby...erm I mean GW deciding no one would be able to play other marines than Ultrasmurfs), but for now we still are able to give our own names for such and such character. It's not a hazard if all the captains in a Marine Chapter aren't named, even though they are in quite a few numbers enough so that it would have been possible.
That's because unlike the Space Marines, whose recruits have a perfectly normal life until being recruited at the age of ~10, and whose Chapters are afflicted by local culture, and whose genetic purity is at best questionable in a worryingly high number of Chapters, the Sisters of Battle are raised in the Schola Progenium from infancy, deeply indoctrinated by the Ecclesiarchy's Drill-Abbots...
I'm stopping you right there. Schola Progenium isn't just for sisters. It's for all the children who have lost their parents while they were in service (mostly from Imperial Guard and Navy, but the Administratum as well). Commissars come as well from there; it's just something like an "Elite Private School".
Beside, orphans are not made when they were all in infancy. Some lose their parents at an older age than others. That means they still have their roots (even if they don't always remember them). They don't lose them instantly just because they join the Schola Progenium.
By the way, corruption can still be seeded here. It doesn't have to come from the students, just some teachers...In the "Dark Heresy" RPG, there was something called "Dark Schola Progenium", an establishment that was in the hands of corrupted guys so that they could send their "tainted seeds" in the very core of the Imperial "high standing society". When the Inquisition managed to stop them, damage was already done and was quite horrendous. What happened once can always be renewed in the future...
In short, whereas the Space Marines remember their roots, where they have pride and arrogance, where they focus entirely on war and heritage, what shields the Sororitas is their fanatical religious conviction that there is a higher power protecting them, and that they serve a greater, a divine purpose, by doing a god's work rather than just some great man's.
In the case of the Sisters of Battle, ignorance really is a blessing.
I usually refrain from pointing to Black Library, but I found this excerpt from Ben Counter's short story "Daemonblood" to be a perfect illustration of where I think the difference lies, and how it affects them
Ignorance is a blessing for all people in the Imperium. That doesn't mean they will never be curious...even Sisters of Battle. In Faith and Fire (yeah, I know, it's not really the best book...but it's still one of the few talking about Adepta Sororitas), the characters ask themselves some disturbing questions (if they were just blindly following orders, they would have been killed and the story would end sooner by the way). It was here for their sake, but it could have been their doom in another situation...
And yeah, it can be dangerous to take informations from Black Library. Especially Ben Counters and his monolithic characters (orks are dumb, sisters are fanatic, demons are bad, marines are awesome... .
In a way, due to their cloistered life (even more cloistered than the already monastic warrior monks of the Adeptus Astartes, by way of their childhoods), they are even more brainwashed - and perhaps this is why they have "the blood of innocents", as the GK Codex puts it.
Honestly, when you see the "daily life" of a Space Marine (who is quite close to a monastery life), it's not so different from a sister's one. The two in fact share a lot in common - just that these women are still humans while the others are genetically modified monsters.
Unless Matt Ward writes the next codex for Adepta Sororitas and change their background into Magical Angel Girls coming right from the Emperor's Hand.
You have some Inquisitors that are recruited out of the Black Ships, but that is neither all of them, nor does this mean they didn't have a normal childhood (until they were found out anyways).
Then you have others that grew up in the Schola Progenium - which happens to be the same place that potential novices for the Adepta Sororitas grow up in, just that Sisters have to add a 5-year novitiate in the "tender" care of the Orders Famulous on top of that, and that unlike with Inquisitors, we were told that a progena would have to grow up in the Schola "from birth" to be eligible for the Sisterhood.
Most Inquisitors, though, seem to be made out of the ranks of Acolytes that senior Inquisitors recruit into their cadre, and those can come from any vocation - as long as they have useful talents and display suitable loyalty to the cause. The 3E Witch Hunter Codex had some fluff about that.
But the tests to become an Inquisitor are even harsher and more careful, because they only take the best of the best with an iron will. Only the ones able to do what it takes to protect the Emperor's masterwork are chosen, and even those will have to prove their worth many times before having the right to call themselves true Inquisitors (most of them die before that happens, anyway).
I think you are overestimating sisters. Most of them are troops...elite ones, sure, but it's not like all of them are the stuff Inquisitors are made of - or even Space Marines. In Dark Heresy, you can play sisters as handwomen - they are useful to the Inquisition (especially the Ordo Hereticus), but that doesn't mean they are invincible or flawless. They aren't immune to corruption (just a few have ways to avoid this through their highest faith, but that's something only the purest have - and only under specific situations). Mostly are described as fanatic and unforgiving; they're very extreme characters, not really subtle most of the time.
And you know what? Chaos feeds from extreme feelings...
Agreed. Which is why I much prefer the idea of them being one-offs rather than groups.
Absolutely! This would be quite a rare event, mostly one or a few of them who managed somehow to escape the wrath of their former sisters. A whole convent falling to Chaos should have very specific reasons and would be quite a major event (and disastrous for the Ecclesiarchy!). If something would be able to cause that, it should be a cataclysmic one on a big scale, that would be able to affect a whole planet (or even a solar system!). In the 40k universe, such things aren't unheard of, unfortunately for the Imperium.
And Goge Vandire was no priest, he was a High Lord of the Administratum who ursurped the title after he killed the real Ecclesiarch.
He weared a Rosarius, meaning he was considered part of the Ecclesiarchy. And that's all that mattered; true corruption comes from inside. When you follow a corrupted one, you can't say you are free of that corruption you helped to spread.
May I talk about the true villain in Faith and Fire? Ah, but that would be a spoiler.
But I don't have to do that. In codex: Chaos Space Marine, it is the Ecclesiarch himself that led many marine chapters to their doom in the Eye of Terror.
Also the Space Wolves had to deal with a high priest having too much ambition before he was teared to pieces by Leman Russ's angry sons.
There are plenty of stories about corrupted priests of the Ecclesiarchy. Sometimes, the sisters stopped them (in a very unpleasant way involving fire and bolters, most of the time). The Ordo Hereticus also knows this very well.
da001 wrote:
Vandire didn´t rebel against the Imperium. He was the Imperium. Heretics and rebels rebelled against him.
I was concerned about GW retconning this and changing Vandire into a Chaos puppet. But they didn´t. He was a High Lord of Terra. A tyrant, but not corrupted by Chaos. That´s good. It adds depth and diversity to the background.
Hell is made with good intentions. Corrupted ones always believe they have a good reason to being corrupted. And when you made a step on that way, you can't go back.
Of course, Vandire wasn't a chaos worshipper (at least, officially until now). But what he made means that he would certainly have been more opened to its temptations. In the very end, what he did endangered the Emperor's masterwork...and he clearly went against His divine will.
Corruption does not equal failure. Punishment for the slightest mistake does not mean worshipping the Dark Gods.
True. But failure means that the strength of your will is weakened. It plants seeds of doubt in your mind. Doubt can lead to questions. And questions can open your mind to heresy. Chaos is then not so far away for those who went to that step.
But then again, they are (at best) extremely hard to corrupt. Thousands of Space Marines (and countless millions of imperial citizens) will fall before a single Sister or Grey Knight does. (off-topic note: what about the Forces of Order, the Adeptus Arbites?).
That I agree with you (though I won't go so far as saying a sister is on the same level of a Grey Knight...). It should stay a very rare event, and the Ecclesiarchy would surely try to kill them as soon as possible. Such a thing would a terrible blow to the faith of their followers.
If we are going to talk about sisters falling, I do not see why limit us to Slaanesh.
Khorne: a single Sister who sees her life as a constant war, an endless stream of violence.
Tzeentch: someone from one of the Order Famulous. Seriously... "the Order of the Key", "the Order of the Gate"... even their names sounds tzeentchy.
Nurgle: he is the corrupter by default. A disgusting sickness, unbearable pain, despair... In the background, most souls go to the warp after death. Some souls are valuable to Khorne, others to Slaanesh, others to Tzeentch, but Nurgle loves them all.
Tzeentch would be good as well for a sister who seeks knowledge and has enough to be ignorant. If she wants to change things (not especially just for herself; someone who can't stand the suffering of humanity during the harsh rule of the Imperium can think it would be for the best things change radically), that would be the god she would follow.
Nurgle is also worshipped by the people who just can't stand the idea of dieing. A sister who is afraid of death (even more if it is slow and painful, like a long sickness) may open her mind to Father Nurgle so that she can escape that fate. I can see very interesting backstories behind a Nurgle sister, to be honest - not all of them made of despair. There is nothing more horrifying when someone acts by what she honestly believes as genuine benevolence while causing atrocious deaths - if she thinks that people would be happier that way in the sweet arms of Nurgle, that may be completely true from her point of view.
with this much dedication to he lore and history and possibility of actual existence and discussion about how it could and could not exist...you think GW would go ahead and makes some miniatures for it. Obviously they would sell.
If they release a plastic kit for the sisters, no doubt there will be players who will convert them into chaos girls or something. They don't have to be corrupted sisters; just women worshiping Chaos while wearing power armours and bolters (certainly stolen on the bodies of righteous but still defeated sisters ).
One day, maybe...after they release codex Necron Air Force and their new awesome Flying Destroyer Lords of Rising Orb Doom models for the Warhammer 40k V9, in a few years.
No, have faith. We will have them eventually. Just watch what happened for the Witch Elves in Warhammer Battle. GW CAN make plastic kits of all female troop models, we now have evidence!
I'm spoilering this because the replies in the discussion keep getting longer.
Spoiler:
Sarouan wrote:I'm stopping you right there. Schola Progenium isn't just for sisters. It's for all the children who have lost their parents while they were in service (mostly from Imperial Guard and Navy, but the Administratum as well). Commissars come as well from there; it's just something like an "Elite Private School". Beside, orphans are not made when they were all in infancy. Some lose their parents at an older age than others. That means they still have their roots (even if they don't always remember them). They don't lose them instantly just because they join the Schola Progenium.
But that's the difference. Some (or even most!) kids get into the Schola at a later age - but not Battle Sisters. They are explicitly said to be raised "from infancy", they never knew a normal life, and they never experienced normal love by their parents, and they have literally zero experience of what life looks like outside the compound walls.
Also, how many Commissars do you know that fell to Chaos? How do you know they are not just as resilient?
Okay, the Sisters are still somewhat more extreme - as previously hinted at, they add a novitiate in the Orders Famulous on top of their Schola experience, which I imagine only serves to steel them further. After all, Commissars at least have contact with normal people on a daily basis. Sisterhood convents on the other hand ...
"Part of the puritan lifestyle of the Sisterhood is its isolation, and it is generally only the Canoness and her most experienced Sisters Superior who will have dealings with outsiders - even Sisters of another Order. The Sisters are utterly dedicated to one task or discipline and brook no distraction from their studies." -- White Dwarf #211
Sarouan wrote:By the way, corruption can still be seeded here. It doesn't have to come from the students, just some teachers...In the "Dark Heresy" RPG, there was something called "Dark Schola Progenium", an establishment that was in the hands of corrupted guys so that they could send their "tainted seeds" in the very core of the Imperial "high standing society". When the Inquisition managed to stop them, damage was already done and was quite horrendous. What happened once can always be renewed in the future...
Actually, nnno. Even if we accept this material from Dark Heresy, then the Blighted Schola (the actual name) existed just to train the servants of those Radical Inquisitors who created this facility. They did not infiltrate other Imperial organisations (this would have been much too dangerous; the risk to discover this facility and have it closed would be much too great), but "only" to turn stolen orphans into blindly loyal assassins and soldiers for their cause. In spite of the moniker, it existed outside the Ecclesiarchy's network, and the only connection it has to the normal Scholae is the name (likely chosen as it functions somewhat similarly in principle).
Sarouan wrote:Ignorance is a blessing for all people in the Imperium. That doesn't mean they will never be curious...even Sisters of Battle.
You say that as if it's impossible to brainwash people this way.
Honestly, Sisters, or Commissars (and most Marines, for that matter), should not be looked at like normal people. They grew up in a much more radical environment than we can imagine - even the Napola academies of Nazi Germany are an inadequate comparison, though they come disturbingly close.
Sarouan wrote:Honestly, when you see the "daily life" of a Space Marine (who is quite close to a monastery life), it's not so different from a sister's one. The two in fact share a lot in common - just that these women are still humans while the others are genetically modified monsters.
That's not the only difference.
Again I point to my earlier GW website quote:
"As the Chamber Militant of the galaxy-spanning Ecclesiarchy, the Sisters of Battle are fierce warriors that are equals to their brother Space Marines. What the Sisters lack in genetic enhancement they make up for in faith and devotion. No one is more devoted to the cause and cult of the Emperor than they."
They both live a monastic existence, but the Space Marines' is much more focused on martial training and exercise, while the Sisters spend the day with equal parts training and prayer. Apparently, from all we can see both on the tabletop and in their fluff, this has a notable effect that the Astartes cannot replicate.
How much time are Marines granted to reflect on their service to the Emperor, according to that chart in the 3E Codex? 15 minutes? And even this is cancelled as "luxury" in a number of Chapters.
The "problem" is that Space Marines seem to live chiefly and foremost for their own Chapter, focusing on their own existence and their own leaders, rather than committing entirely to the Imperium. This breeds pride and arrogance, and we have more than enough examples of what this can lead to. And I'm not talking just of the Horus Heresy, but also the countless incidents in the millennia after it.
Sarouan wrote:But the tests to become an Inquisitor are even harsher and more careful, because they only take the best of the best with an iron will. Only the ones able to do what it takes to protect the Emperor's masterwork are chosen, and even those will have to prove their worth many times before having the right to call themselves true Inquisitors (most of them die before that happens, anyway).
Yet their very lifestyle and the authority they wield causes many to stray from their paths. Who becomes an Inquisitor is determined by other Inquisitors, and given that there's a lot of Radicals who have no problem working with Chaos relics if it suits their ideas, I'm sure you can see where I'm coming from here.
Sarouan wrote:I think you are overestimating sisters. Most of them are troops...elite ones, sure, but it's not like all of them are the stuff Inquisitors are made of - or even Space Marines.
And I think you are underestimating them.
But let's be real here - 40k is a matter of interpretation. Technically, neither of us can be "wrong" because it depends on what kind of material you are looking at. However, I can produce quotes directly from Games Workshop that support my interpretation. Whether this means anything is, of course, up to you. As much as I am biased against the "less awesome" Sisters that seem to dominate Black Library or FFG's RPGs, they are just as valid as the version GW has written up.
Sarouan wrote:Absolutely! This would be quite a rare event, mostly one or a few of them who managed somehow to escape the wrath of their former sisters. A whole convent falling to Chaos should have very specific reasons and would be quite a major event (and disastrous for the Ecclesiarchy!). If something would be able to cause that, it should be a cataclysmic one on a big scale, that would be able to affect a whole planet (or even a solar system!). In the 40k universe, such things aren't unheard of, unfortunately for the Imperium.
That's already too much for my taste. Would you say the same about the Grey Knights, who are apparently less resilient (given that they rely on the Sisters to augment themselves)?
No, I'm thinking more along the lines of Miriael. One-offs. Where just a single example is such an incredible, outrageous breach of established belief that will have countless important people worrying how this was possible.
Personal preferences, I guess. In my mind, it makes Miriael more awesome, whilst preserving the Sisters' image in the studio material.
Sarouan wrote:He weared a Rosarius, meaning he was considered part of the Ecclesiarchy. And that's all that mattered; true corruption comes from inside. When you follow a corrupted one, you can't say you are free of that corruption you helped to spread.
That's not "all that mattered". Ursurping a priestly position by worldly political power as an outsider to the church does not make you a priest by heart, and faith - with the resilience against corruption it seems to grant - comes from inside, not because you happen to scribble something on a piece of paper.
Sarouan wrote:May I talk about the true villain in Faith and Fire? Ah, but that would be a spoiler.
You brought up the Age of Apostasy. I merely corrected your assumption that Vandire was a true priest.
I don't think anyone would argue that the average clergy is far being as faithful as the Sisters are. They don't have the same lifestyle, the majority come from much more ordinary backgrounds, and they are in a much better position to actually sample the delicious fruits of their lord-like station.
Fortunately, one of the tasks of the Sisterhood is to keep the clergy in check.
Sarouan wrote:But I don't have to do that. In codex: Chaos Space Marine, it is the Ecclesiarch himself that led many marine chapters to their doom in the Eye of Terror.
Saint Basilius was not the Ecclesiarch.
Sarouan wrote:Also the Space Wolves had to deal with a high priest having too much ambition before he was teared to pieces by Leman Russ's angry sons.
Is this referring to the Space Wolves testing their artillery on a priestly delegation approaching Fenris to investigate rumours of heresy?
I would actually regard this as a sign of the priests' faith and conviction, rather than hold it against them. They kicked off a lot of trouble, but arguably they were doing "the Emperor's work" (as taught by the Ecclesiarchy).
da001 wrote:Vandire didn´t rebel against the Imperium. He was the Imperium. Heretics and rebels rebelled against him. I was concerned about GW retconning this and changing Vandire into a Chaos puppet. But they didn´t. He was a High Lord of Terra. A tyrant, but not corrupted by Chaos. That´s good. It adds depth and diversity to the background.
Indeed. The setting would be boring if all these patches of grey would be replaced by a simple black vs white.
I remember a quote about Vandire from Sebastian Thor: "He was a mad man who put into practice what many saints preached."
Sarouan wrote:someone who can't stand the suffering of humanity during the harsh rule of the Imperium can think it would be for the best things change radically
A Sororitas who thinks the Imperium's harsh rule is bad for people? Wha?
I have a short story from the 3rd edition rulebook of 40k for you which I think nicely outlines the Sisters' mindset:
click here (images do not seem to display correctly in quotes, it seems - hence the link)
Honestly, I think a better angle would be the Orders Pronatus, who sometimes study dangerous artefacts and keep them safe out of the hands of the Imperium's many enemies. This idea was picked up in the Daemonifuge comics, by the way.
Sarouan wrote:Nurgle is also worshipped by the people who just can't stand the idea of dieing. A sister who is afraid of death (even more if it is slow and painful, like a long sickness) may open her mind to Father Nurgle so that she can escape that fate.
That is anathema to their very existence. The Sisters believe that, in death, they are united with their god they adore, that death is merely a transition into another existence. They are drilled from infancy to readily give their lives when the time comes - that is the essence of martyrdom.
They stay alive because duty demands it, and are committed to kill as many heretics as they can before their time comes. But I don't see a Sister forsaking her purity in exchange for a longer life - because to her, such a life would have no purpose. When you can't go to the Emperor anymore, why keep on living? To appreciate the ordinary joys of life, they'd have to live in ordinary ways ... but they don't.
Sarouan wrote: and their new awesome Flying Destroyer Lords of Rising Orb Doom models for the Warhammer 40k V9,
I've so been wanting this one since I read about it in a forum rumor post made 3 years ago by some guy whose never played 40k...... soooo excited its coming soon
Lynata wrote: I'm spoilering this because the replies in the discussion keep getting longer.
You're right, I apologize for making that topic even more bigger!
Spoiler:
But that's the difference. Some (or even most!) kids get into the Schola at a later age - but not Battle Sisters. They are explicitly said to be raised "from infancy", they never knew a normal life, and they never experienced normal love by their parents, and they have literally zero experience of what life looks like outside the compound walls.
Hm, I don't remember reading such a thing in the official fluff. Even so, I doubt absolutely NO exception would be make in such a big universe as 40k - the thousand of thousand of planetary systems owned by the Imperium, that kind of stuff.
Also, how many Commissars do you know that fell to Chaos? How do you know they are not just as resilient?
I know at least one. The cultist champion with the shotgun from the starter box. His official fluff is a former commissar who betrayed his men because he didn't want to die. And he joined Chaos. Nothing more "GW labeled" than that, since there is a model.
Yes, they are resilient. But humans will still be humans; they have weaknesses. If all humanity was flawless and it just takes some Schola Progenium to solve everything, Chaos would already be defeated for a long time.
Okay, the Sisters are still somewhat more extreme - as previously hinted at, they add a novitiate in the Orders Famulous on top of their Schola experience, which I imagine only serves to steel them further. After all, Commissars at least have contact with normal people on a daily basis. Sisterhood convents on the other hand ...
Sisters also serve as formal guard for the Ecclesiarchy. So it's not like they completely cut themselves from the rest of the world. They are in fact a lot like marines in that way (not all chapters are "human friendly" like Space Wolves or Ultramarines, some are really reclusive and have little to do with "mere humans" if anything).
Also, some orders are closer than others. It's especially true for the Hospitaliers (is that the right name?) for obvious reasons, but the Ordo Famulous and Dialogus are quite known as well for their sociability.
Actually, nnno. Even if we accept this material from Dark Heresy, then the Blighted Schola (the actual name) existed just to train the servants of those Radical Inquisitors who created this facility. They did not infiltrate other Imperial organisations (this would have been much too dangerous; the risk to discover this facility and have it closed would be much too great), but "only" to turn stolen orphans into blindly loyal assassins and soldiers for their cause. In spite of the moniker, it existed outside the Ecclesiarchy's network, and the only connection it has to the normal Scholae is the name (likely chosen as it functions somewhat similarly in principle).
Thank you for correcting me, I just have the french version here.
This is indeed only the name, and that's why it worked. People who took these "corrupted seeds" thought it was a genuine Schola Progenium. It is obvious that with the size of the Imperium, there can't be just "one" Schola Progenium to fill all its needs - even if it was the size of a whole planet, there would the problem of carrying all these recruits to their "new homeé before they die of old age. Story of corruption inside one of them would be quite interesting to read...as well as the ones telling about Alpha Legion brainwashing some of the recruits a Space Marine chapter so that they can destroy it from the inside at the right time.
Honestly, Sisters, or Commissars (and most Marines, for that matter), should not be looked at like normal people.
Absolutely, they're not. I'm just saying Space Marines are even less normal than the first two...because their fluff clearly says they're much more than humans. That's why I find weird people saying marines falling to Chaos is "normal" while saying absolutely "no" when talking about the possibility of sisters being corrupted. While the sisters are, in fact, more humans than marines when compared to the rest of humanity.
And yes, marines are soldiers meant for war. Still, the way they forge their mind so that They Shall Know No Fear while the sisters only have faith but very know fear, lead me to think that Space Marines aren't especially "weaker" to Chaos. It's in reality a rare event when a marine would fall to Chaos; the fact he did show that even the mightiest might fall to the whispers from the Warp.
Yet the sisters should be immune because they are female humans who have faith in the Emperor? Word Bearers did have faith as well. It seems like it ended quite badly for them.
So faith is a weapon, true...the Chaos Gods know this perfectly well.
The "problem" is that Space Marines seem to live chiefly and foremost for their own Chapter, focusing on their own existence and their own leaders, rather than committing entirely to the Imperium. This breeds pride and arrogance, and we have more than enough examples of what this can lead to. And I'm not talking just of the Horus Heresy, but also the countless incidents in the millennia after it.
That's because they had to fill "Codex: Chaos Space Marines" with stories of corrupted marines. If it was corrupted sisters but no model made for them, it would have no point. That doesn't mean they can't exist in the fluff. Just like whole companies of guardswomen.
Yet their very lifestyle and the authority they wield causes many to stray from their paths. Who becomes an Inquisitor is determined by other Inquisitors, and given that there's a lot of Radicals who have no problem working with Chaos relics if it suits their ideas, I'm sure you can see where I'm coming from here.
That's because when you keep fighting the Great Enemy for hundred of years, you can't get away with your mind unharmed. If sisters were forced to fight Chaos over and over, I'm not sure their faith would absolutely stayed untouched for all of them.
But true, I may be underestimating our dear sisters. I like them, since it's one of my oldest armies. But I also play a renegade guard army, so that may be the reason of my own corruption.
Sarouan wrote:Also the Space Wolves had to deal with a high priest having too much ambition before he was teared to pieces by Leman Russ's angry sons.
Is this referring to the Space Wolves testing their artillery on a priestly delegation approaching Fenris to investigate rumours of heresy?
No, it's another battle (quite old, I must say...it was from an older edition). A high priest took over his world and rebelled against the Imperium, but got too hungry and wanted to invade the home world of Space Wolves (yeah, he was THAT stupid). Got his ass quite harshly whipped.
They stay alive because duty demands it, and are committed to kill as many heretics as they can before their time comes. But I don't see a Sister forsaking her purity in exchange for a longer life - because to her, such a life would have no purpose. When you can't go to the Emperor anymore, why keep on living? To appreciate the ordinary joys of life, they'd have to live in ordinary ways ... but they don't.
That's because your forget what human nature is.
Also, don't forget the hospitaliers. They are much more sensitive to human life (not the heretics, of course).
Nice to share points of view with you, by the way! It's really interesting!
I found it pretty bad, sometime hilariously. Like that part :
Although hill trolls crave the cortex and the surrounding cerebrospinal fluid, they savor the taste of the limbic system, most specifically the amygdala, basal ganglia, and hippocampus. Oddly, they always reject the thalamus, but devour the hypothalamus.
Really odd indeed, don't they know the wathevercampus is the best part ? Also note I just stopped my quotation before the worse detail.
I never said it wasn't bad...just not as bad as people usually say. That said I did read the second edition which was apparently sanitized a bit from the original (although the explicit disclaimer in the front where the author honestly and legitimately said "people said words a, b, and c were offensive; so we replaced them with words x, y, and z so it wouldn't be as offensive" was kind of headbangingly stupid)
Lynata wrote: All I'm saying the latter can happen more easily than the former - in your example, because Sisters tend to die together.
I see both being equally harder, in your example because Sisters tend to be together, and police themselves .
Lynata wrote: Then those people should question their common sense.
You don't want to hear what he actually said, in fact. Really. I don't think he realized what he was saying, though. Because else, he's really fethed up.
Lynata wrote: Still: Here is a collection of every single piece of Codex art from both the 2E and the 3E book. Don't tell me you do not see a pattern!
Yeah, I know. But since it was never mentioned as being a rule or having a special significance, it's possible it's just some tradition, not an obligation. Maybe some remote minor Order have all their members with ponytails, or very short hairs…
Generally, GW likes to keep it as open as possible .
Lynata wrote: But more importantly, when the Emperor's Children strive to savour every sensation, what makes you think sex is the one exception, and why?
We never see them with some holes in their armor so that they can pleasure themselves during battle, do we ? We never hear about them trying to seduce other space marines in the middle of battle by showing off their manly appeal neither, do we ? The only slaaneshi unit we have gets it's pleasure from noise, not sex, right ?
As for why GW did this, just ask them. I do totally agree that sex seems like a more common and easy “gateway drug” than noise. But it seems GW has decided that either marines miss some possibility here, or it gets old very fast to them, while other, way more exotic stuff keeps them entertained. The second possibility seeming more probable, since mutations can make up for the first part.
Sarouan wrote: He weared a Rosarius, meaning he was considered part of the Ecclesiarchy.
No. Even dirty inhuman heretics like space marines chaplain own rosarius, and they sure are not part of the Ecclesiarchy !
rayphoton wrote: with this much dedication to he lore and history and possibility of actual existence and discussion about how it could and could not exist...you think GW would go ahead and makes some miniatures for it. Obviously they would sell.
Sorry, but creating new Sisters model is against GW's policy.
Lynata wrote: Also, how many Commissars do you know that fell to Chaos? How do you know they are not just as resilient?
One of the reasons the Grey Knights haven't yet had one fall to Chaos is because their memory wipe on induction removes all emotional ties, allowing them to be fully indoctrinated into their task.
I assume sisters, being trained from a very early age, are kind of similar to this. However, I find it difficult to imagine that they didn't develop any emotional ties whatsoever while they were children, at least. It's rather hard to raise someone up from a child without creating some emotional ties no matter how stringent you are. Furthermore, aren't many of them orphans that were inducted into the schola, as opposed to trained from birth?
I find the idea absolutely ludicrous that an organization as large as the sisters managed to find a training and learning regiment that so far, in 4,000 years or so, has prevented even one sister from falling to chaos. The Grey Knights are at least a really REALLY small organization which includes a memory wipe so it'd be easy for the Imperium to contribute the resources towards such stringent indoctrination, but to be able to raise up an organization as large as the sisterhood while still not having one fall to chaos just seems a bit hard to swallow to me, even if they're raised from birth. Sure, you can say "They only let the best become sisters", but again, the sisterhood is LARGE (besides some possible retcons that possibly recently got retconned), so how could they find THAT many super-perfect-ultra-faithful-never-fall-to-chaos girls? That would imply that the Imperium somehow managed to find and create an educational institute which was perfect in itself AND had perfect teachers in itself, and IMMEDIATLEY upon the sisterhood instute's creation (What? No trial and error? You'd think some would fall while the Imperium was at least figuring out HOW to start training and raising up sisters).
(this is all assuming the Emperor or supernatural faith shenanigans aren't involved, of course. Me personally, "The Emperor did it" is the only way I can find this remotely believable, but I heard the wording in the codex wording implies it's their training and discipline and zeal, which again, is absolutely ludicrous that not one would falter in an organization so large in 4,000 years)
Furthermore, aren't many of them orphans that were inducted into the schola, as opposed to trained from birth?
No. While there are many children who go to the Schola later on in their young lives (and go on to become priests, Commissars, Administratum clerks, whatever), the Sisters are singled out as being "raised from infancy" within the Schola.
I find the idea absolutely ludicrous that an organization as large as the sisters managed to find a training and learning regiment that so far, in 4,000 years or so, has prevented even one sister from falling to chaos.
Oh ye of little faith...
Their Codex outright states (and has done so for more than a decade now) "utterly incorruptible". It's that simple. Like it or don't, your choice, but that's the studio's stance on it.
the sisterhood is LARGE (besides some possible retcons that possibly recently got retconned)
Actually, they didn't get large until this most recent e-Codex. Prior to this release, there were fewer Sisters in the galaxy than there were Space Marines.
(What? No trial and error? You'd think some would fall while the Imperium was at least figuring out HOW to start training and raising up sisters).
The Daughters of the Emperor predate their existence as the Adepta Sororitas. They were an all-female sect on San Leor. They probably had the spiritual training thing down pat.
Also, don't forget, the Emperor might have spoken directly to Alicia Dominica.
so how could they find THAT many super-perfect-ultra-faithful-never-fall-to-chaos girls?
They make them.
is absolutely ludicrous that not one would falter in an organization so large in 4,000 years
Many falter. That is why there are the Sisters Repentia and, in other fluff, the Sisters Oblatia. However, none have willingly turned to Chaos because, in all likelihood, anyone that seemed like she was even vaguely considering it got purged on the spot by someone with a multi-melta.
Furthermore, aren't many of them orphans that were inducted into the schola, as opposed to trained from birth?
No. While there are many children who go to the Schola later on in their young lives (and go on to become priests, Commissars, Administratum clerks, whatever), the Sisters are singled out as being "raised from infancy" within the Schola.
Ah good, that answers that question.
Their Codex outright states (and has done so for more than a decade now) "utterly incorruptible". It's that simple. Like it or don't, your choice, but that's the studio's stance on it.
Why did you bother saying this is the studio's stance on it? I made it clear in my post that the studio said all those things. Do I need to word things out in a more simplistic fashion? The studio's stance is ludicrous. There. I'm not arguing what's canon and what's not. I'm saying the canon in this case is possibly dumb.
Seems like you've yet to let go of that LAST argument we had, which was regarding what the studio's stance on what's official and what isn't, because this particular argument I'm posting here isn't about that, but rather the believability/quality of canon that's already established. You really need to learn to let things go.
Actually, they didn't get large until this most recent e-Codex. Prior to this release, there were fewer Sisters in the galaxy than there were Space Marines.
I thought there were "dozens" of orders (including minor ones) before the 5th edition codex. Researching into it and doing some math, A convent (1,000 sisters) is supposed to be smaller than an order, far as I know. Probably less than there are Space Marines, but it'd still be around a magnitude of 200,000 - 500,000 sisters, of which around 200 generations have passed (so basically the Imperium's gone through around 4 million to 20 million sister lives in their history). Which is still much harder to swallow that the Imperium got enough teachers and a system capable of that many to never have even ONE fall to Chaos compared to a relatively puny amount of memory wiped 300+ year long lifespan (so not as many generations of Grey Knights throughout history) Marines.
The Daughters of the Emperor predate their existence as the Adepta Sororitas. They were an all-female sect on San Leor. They probably had the spiritual training thing down pat.
If that's the case, depending on how large the DoE were in the first place (Were there every any numbers given on that?), it'd still an astonishingly speedy ability of the Imperium to adapt its schola progenum teachings to it. But it's at least more believable of the DoE consisted of a large number already.
Also, don't forget, the Emperor might have spoken directly to Alicia Dominica.
Yes, there's a reason why I said "Assuming no Emperor shenanigans involved". If you involve that, then all bets are off and things are quite clearly justified. However, the wording of the codex says it's "a sign of their strength". Which means it's up to each individual sister to be strong-willed enough to not fall to Chaos rather than the Emperor backing them up.
They make them.
It's a matter of how they can make so many. To make a high quality strong-willed sister, you'd need high quality teachers, and lots of them, because they'd have to be able to personally devote a lot of time to raising a small amount of sisters (you can't have just one teacher mass-teach and raise up a ton).
Of course, if the amount of sisters isn't that large, it becomes much more believable. The main problem is GW keeps on jumping back and forth on how many sisters there are.
Many falter. That is why there are the Sisters Repentia and, in other fluff, the Sisters Oblatia. However, none have willingly turned to Chaos because, in all likelihood, anyone that seemed like she was even vaguely considering it got purged on the spot by someone with a multi-melta.
Chaos is capable of being deceptive and smart enough to keep itself low-key in many cases. So the sisters would have to do a lot of purging in that case and get a LOT of false positives (because with something as sneaky as Chaos can be, purging EVERYONE who could possibly be chaotic would destroy a ton of innocents). At that point I'd wonder why we don't see any fluff stories of sisters contemplating shooting other sisters (or honestly, anyone) from false positives, but admittingly that probably has to do with the fact that there's almost no personally-detailed fluff on sisters in the first place.
Also admittingly, the false positives are usually just relegated to "Hey, grimdark!" footnotes, I suppose, although we've yet to see some involving sisters (again, probably because there's so few non-footnote sister involvement stories in the first place).
Still, if the sisters really purged anyone even vaguely suspected of it, you'd think most would get purged or commit suicide before they could become repentia in the first place.
Why did you bother saying this is the studio's stance on it? I made it clear in my post that the studio said all those things. Do I need to word things out in a more simplistic fashion? The studio's stance is ludicrous. There. I'm not arguing what's canon and what's not. I'm saying the canon in this case is apparently dumb.
Seems like you've yet to let go of that LAST argument we had, which was regarding what the studio's stance on what's official and what isn't, because this particular argument I'm posting here isn't about that, but rather the believability/quality of canon that's already established. You really need to learn to let things go.
o.0
Willis, what the feth are you talkin' 'bout?
You're free to not agree with the studio "canon", but arguing from the opposite side, or trying to argue the validity of it is... pointless, really. It's the information the studio provides, we go with it. There's plenty of stuff from the studio I don't particularly like, but since that's the canon, it's the canon. While I personally think the Space Wolves would have been declared Excommunicatus Traitorus after the First War of Armageddon, they weren't, so there it goes. They're still around.
(because with something as sneaky as Chaos can be, purging EVERYONE who could possibly be chaotic would destroy a ton of innocents)
As they say in the setting: It is better that a thousand innocents should die than to let one guilty walk free.
... they also say that "innocence proves nothing", and that "a plea of innocence is guilty of wasting my time. Guilty!".
The sneakiness of Chaos also *really* depends on who's writing it. Sometimes it's insidious, some times it's just mustache-twirling.
There is also the possibility that, no, there *aren't* a lot of "false positives". There is heresy, and there is not. The Sisters, and the Inquisition, may have a defined line drawn, that if you do something over on this side, you're not a heretic (but we *will* be watching) but if you do anything from this list over on this side of the line, we burn you to ash in a plasma reactor and then shoot your ashes into a star.
The Sisters have the ability to perform Genetic Purity tests and such, and determine if someone is genetically mutated or cross-bred with certain Xenos. It is possible that the effects of Chaos Corruption leave other markers within a subject that can be tested for, such as motes of Warp energy in the bloodstream or runic marks on certain cell-bodies. We're simply not provided with the details.
And, yes, Chaos *can* be low-key... to a point. There comes a point, however, where it can no longer be low-key or it's not doing anything of any value. However, this kind of corruption is best in places where it can remain low-key.
The Sisters live amongst themselves in their priories and convents. They do not move amongst the population of the Imperium on a regular basis in most cases (some variance exists, based on the Order). They live lives of prayer, deprivation, self-inflicted suffering, harsh discipline and training. These tiny foot-holds of Chaos, these seeds keeping a low-key are... pretty quickly stamped out. These seeds find no fertile ground in which to grow.
TiamatRoar wrote: The main problem is GW keeps on jumping back and forth on how many sisters there are.
They don't. As far as I'm aware, GW has always told us the average numbers of the Major Orders, and said that Minor Orders are an unknown quantity. It's non-studio stuff, like Soulstorm, where we see different numbers. Soulstorm, for example, had "millions" (it might've just been a million) of Sisters coming to a world to pray.
You're free to not agree with the studio "canon", but arguing from the opposite side, or trying to argue the validity of it is... pointless, really. It's the information the studio provides, we go with it. There's plenty of stuff from the studio I don't particularly like, but since that's the canon, it's the canon. While I personally think the Space Wolves would have been declared Excommunicatus Traitorus after the First War of Armageddon, they weren't, so there it goes. They're still around.
I'm saying I'm NOT arguing with the validity of it. The studio says it's canon, I agree the studio says it's canon, I agree it's canon, but that doesn't change the fact that I think that it's unrealistic (assuming it's meant to be "realistic". Again, all bets are off if a supernatural power is involved). And I only had to bring this up because you're the one thinking I'm arguing about the validity/canonicity of it, when I'm not.
As they say in the setting: It is better that a thousand innocents should die than to let one guilty walk free.
... they also say that "innocence proves nothing", and that "a plea of innocence is guilty of wasting my time. Guilty!".
The sneakiness of Chaos also *really* depends on who's writing it. Sometimes it's insidious, some times it's just mustache-twirling.
There is also the possibility that, no, there *aren't* a lot of "false positives". There is heresy, and there is not. The Sisters, and the Inquisition, may have a defined line drawn, that if you do something over on this side, you're not a heretic (but we *will* be watching) but if you do anything from this list over on this side of the line, we burn you to ash in a plasma reactor and then shoot your ashes into a star.
The Sisters have the ability to perform Genetic Purity tests and such, and determine if someone is genetically mutated or cross-bred with certain Xenos. It is possible that the effects of Chaos Corruption leave other markers within a subject that can be tested for, such as motes of Warp energy in the bloodstream or runic marks on certain cell-bodies. We're simply not provided with the details.
And, yes, Chaos *can* be low-key... to a point. There comes a point, however, where it can no longer be low-key or it's not doing anything of any value. However, this kind of corruption is best in places where it can remain low-key.
The Sisters live amongst themselves in their priories and convents. They do not move amongst the population of the Imperium on a regular basis in most cases (some variance exists, based on the Order). They live lives of prayer, deprivation, self-inflicted suffering, harsh discipline and training. These tiny foot-holds of Chaos, these seeds keeping a low-key are... pretty quickly stamped out. These seeds find no fertile ground in which to grow.
The point is that if the sisters are really THAT stringent and willing to purge their own at the mere hint of chaos, there's a surprisingly very little fluff of them purging their ranks.
But again, that's probably explained by the fact that there's very little fluff at all about sisters in the first place.
As an aside, I don't recall Repentia fluff ever mentioning chaos as a reason sisters become Repentia. It's usually due to "sins" or something else like that, which might include Chaos but is never explicitly stated (and I think they'd probably get purged instead of becoming Repentia in that case, anyways. Again the point being we have no fluff saying either way)
TiamatRoar wrote: The point is that if the sisters are really THAT stringent and willing to purge their own at the mere hint of chaos, there's a surprisingly very little fluff of them purging their ranks.
That would be because they are extremely resistant to Chaotic influence. They haven't needed to do it because it doesn't really occur.
But yes, if one were to show signs of Chaotic taint, purging would be swift.
Psienesis wrote: Actually, they didn't get large until this most recent e-Codex.
After some discussion in another thread, it seems that nothing was actually retconned, just fleshed out. The WD codex actually only said that 100 was the minimum size of a Minor Order, and said nothing about their maximum size. The e-Codex just clarified that 1000 is the maximum size.
TiamatRoar wrote: The main problem is GW keeps on jumping back and forth on how many sisters there are.
They don't. As far as I'm aware, GW has always told us the average numbers of the Major Orders, and said that Minor Orders are an unknown quantity. It's non-studio stuff, like Soulstorm, where we see different numbers. Soulstorm, for example, had "millions" (it might've just been a million) of Sisters coming to a world to pray.
Ah, so it's other sources screwing it up.
It becomes more believable as the number of sisters decrease. It's the idea that the Imperium could somehow have created an institute capable of pumping out a million+ sisters who have never fallen to Chaos where things become ridiculous. If there are a lot less sisters than that, then it becomes more plausible.
It's touched on, here and there, in places that Chaos, being something of a supernatural or paranormal thing, is countered by the equally supernatural and paranormal. As Chaos is sort of the setting's "Big Evil", its influence is countered by religions devotions, prayers, certain occult signs and arcane wards, and other mystic mumbo-jumbo.
Since the Sisters spend so much of their time in prayer and religious devotions, it does not surprise me that there's very little opportunity for them to be tempted by Chaos. After all, they reside in places that are "holy ground", they shut themselves off from the sins of the flesh and temptations of venial pleasures, and are very firmly grounded in a profound faith in the God-Emperor, whom the Ruinous Powers of Chaos refer to as "the Anathema". It's really not surprising that, given this, it is rare for Sisters to even be tempted, let alone risk falling.
But, yeah. As far as featuring the Sisters as the main protagonists, I think there's.... four examples in the Black Library? Maybe?
The WD codex actually only said that 100 was the minimum size of a Minor Order, and said nothing about their maximum size. The e-Codex just clarified that 1000 is the maximum size.
Don't have my e-book on hand, but doesn't it now state that the six Orders Major have something like "many tens of thousands" of Sisters each or some similar wording? If so, that's a significant jump.
Not according to the books, but if you wanted you could have a whole regiment, and make up your own fluff. I personally really like the sound of this, and have considered doing it myself
Psienesis wrote: But, yeah. As far as featuring the Sisters as the main protagonists, I think there's.... four examples in the Black Library? Maybe?
I myself can think of six:
- Faith and Fire (must read this again soon) - Hammer and Anvil (ditto) - Red and Black (an audiobook) - Daemonifuge - The Death of Antagonis - A short story I forget the name of where a Hospitaller is displeased with some Marines Malevolent
Psienesis wrote: Don't have my e-book on hand, but doesn't it now state that the six Orders Major have something like "many tens of thousands" of Sisters each or some similar wording? If so, that's a significant jump.
Correct, it does say that. Though that could be referring to Sisters from non-Militant Orders. But maybe not. Regardless, I think we may well have seen a hint of a possible retcon with the Minor Orders getting such a big maximum size. It'll be interesting to see what subsequent studio material has to say on the matter.
I'm saying I'm NOT arguing with the validity of it. The studio says it's canon, I agree the studio says it's canon, I agree it's canon, but that doesn't change the fact that I think that it's unrealistic (assuming it's meant to be "realistic". Again, all bets are off if a supernatural power is involved).
I agree with you here. But I don´t get where did you take the idea of the Sisters NOT involving supernatural powers. Case for study: You launch a krak missile against a Sister Repentia and hit her in the face. The missile explodes. She is unscathed because her faith in the Emperor protects her. How can this be "natural"?
The Sisters make sense involving supernatural beings. They are totally unrealistic any other way.
By including the Emperor in the ecuation, everything fits: the Sisters are incorruptible because they are already "taken". Nurgle can not "corrupt" a Khorne Berserker. The Emperor can not "corrupt" a Noise Marine. Tzeentch can not "corrupt" a Sister of Battle. All of them are already property of a god. The truly faithful have the "Mark of the Emperor".
I have always assumed that the Emperor was a god or an equivalent being. It can be even an ascended human, a psyker, a Ctan, or a renegade Chaos God. The effect is the same: he is powerful enough to have a presence in the Warp, which is the collective "soul" of the universe. A Sister is full of His Light. Nothing else. There is no empty place to fill.
By the way: Space Marines are proud, and emotionally closer to teenagers than men. And most of them do not see the Emperor as a god. So they can be corrupted. A normal human of unbreakable faith is incorruptible too, as long as his/her faith holds.
Psienesis wrote: But, yeah. As far as featuring the Sisters as the main protagonists, I think there's.... four examples in the Black Library? Maybe?
I myself can think of six:
- Faith and Fire (must read this again soon)
- Hammer and Anvil (ditto)
- Red and Black (an audiobook)
- Daemonifuge
- The Death of Antagonis
- A short story I forget the name of where a Hospitaller is displeased with some Marines Malevolent
The novel "Grey Knights" also features a whole lot of Sororitas. It is a decent novel from the times when Grey Knights were not tainted by Khorne and Sororitas could win a fight. Sororitas are not the main characters though.
I'm saying I'm NOT arguing with the validity of it. The studio says it's canon, I agree the studio says it's canon, I agree it's canon, but that doesn't change the fact that I think that it's unrealistic (assuming it's meant to be "realistic". Again, all bets are off if a supernatural power is involved).
I agree with you here. But I don´t get where did you take the idea of the Sisters NOT involving supernatural powers. Case for study: You launch a krak missile against a Sister Repentia and hit her in the face. The missile explodes. She is unscathed because her faith in the Emperor protects her. How can this be "natural"?
The Sisters make sense involving supernatural beings. They are totally unrealistic any other way.
By including the Emperor in the ecuation, everything fits: the Sisters are uncorruptible because they are already "taken". Nurgle can not "corrupt" a Khorne Berserker. The Emperor can not "corrupt" a Noise Marine. Tzeentch can not "corrupt" a Sister of Battle. All of them are already property of a god. The truly faithful have the "Mark of the Emperor".
I have always assumed that the Emperor was a god or an equivalent being. It can be even an ascended human, a psyker, a Ctan, or a renegade Chaos God. The effect is the same: he is powerful enough to have a presence in the Warp, which is the collective "soul" of the universe. A Sister is full of His Light. Nothing else. There is no empty place to fill.
By the way: Space Marines are proud, and emotionally closer to teenagers than men. And most of them do not see the Emperor as a god. So they can be corrupted. A normal human of unbreakable faith is uncorruptible too, as long as his/her faith holds.
I agree with you here. But I don´t get where did you take the idea of the Sisters NOT involving supernatural powers.
Hypothetically speaking. That's why I always included "if", and "if it DOES include supernatural powers, then all bets are off" (IE, "That explains it, then.")
Me personally, I think a near-naked sister withstanding a missile hit is entirely supernatural too, but the description in the codex actually pretty much spells out it's just a willpower thing (despite how it lets sisters withstand crazy things that other Stubborn or Feel No Pain rules etc don't, and only Tzeentch himself is capable of matching with his own invulnerable saves).
Ditto goes for sisters turning to Chaos or not. I too always suspected/felt that it was in part because the Emperor himself was involved, via already owning their souls or whatever else (since the sisters' founder did meet the Emperor), but again, the codex explicitly states it's "a sign of their strength".
....personally I find it ironic that the most faithful and religious organization, going by the wording of the codex, has the least amount of supernatural involved of all the factions besides the "almost no psychic presence" Tau and the "we replace magic with super science" necrons, but that's the way the codex seems to word things for the most part. St Celestine being an exception, although even she has debates on whether she's supernatural or not from some people, apparently.
This isn't the only mention, but it's the first official link I found in google. The sentence itself is copypasta from earlier editions; if you want I can look up precisely where I've seen it before.
Sarouan wrote:Even so, I doubt absolutely NO exception would be make in such a big universe as 40k - the thousand of thousand of planetary systems owned by the Imperium, that kind of stuff.
One could claim that this is merely the rule and that it doesn't apply everywhere, but as this would go against the text-as-written, I wouldn't have to accept such a theory.
It's not hard to think of this as a general rule that has the Sisterhood simply reject a candidate, even if the Schola would be fine with it. The Sororitas have loads of rules for almost everything, traced back to the original San Leor temple - we've seen some examples in the WD Liber Sororitas.
Sarouan wrote:I know at least one. The cultist champion with the shotgun from the starter box. His official fluff is a former commissar who betrayed his men because he didn't want to die. And he joined Chaos. Nothing more "GW labeled" than that, since there is a model.
You know, I totally forgot about that guy.
Point conceded!
Sarouan wrote:Yes, they are resilient. But humans will still be humans; they have weaknesses. If all humanity was flawless and it just takes some Schola Progenium to solve everything, Chaos would already be defeated for a long time.
"Some"? Being brainwashed from birth isn't practical; this sort of education takes up way too much time. It takes longer to make a Battle Sister than a Space Marine!
The Imperium doesn't even manage to send everyone into normal schools.
That being said, the nigh-omnipresent Ecclesiarchy seems to have helped somewhat in focusing people's loyalty, from what the rulebook tells us.
Sarouan wrote:Sisters also serve as formal guard for the Ecclesiarchy. So it's not like they completely cut themselves from the rest of the world. They are in fact a lot like marines in that way (not all chapters are "human friendly" like Space Wolves or Ultramarines, some are really reclusive and have little to do with "mere humans" if anything).
Also, some orders are closer than others. It's especially true for the Hospitaliers (is that the right name?) for obvious reasons, but the Ordo Famulous and Dialogus are quite known as well for their sociability.
Battle Sisters serve as formal guard when they are needed as escorts; I don't think they hang around in the public 24/7. The isolation bit is a very important trait of the Sisters, mentioned several times with their fluff and in a much more prominent manner than with the Marines (there it appears to be more of a side-effect of manning a "castle" rather than intentional avoidance of the local population).
But no, the threat of spiritual corruption to Marine Chapters comes mainly from its recruits, who are taken in at age ~10, already seeped into the culture of their homeworld. The Sons of Malice, for example, are said to have picked up cannibalism from the local tribes.
The point about the Non-Militant Orders is more valid, though I'd assume they would have a mind to maintain their distance when not required. And I thought we were discussing Battle Sisters!
Sarouan wrote:This is indeed only the name, and that's why it worked. People who took these "corrupted seeds" thought it was a genuine Schola Progenium.
But that's not how it is described? This special facility only trained the servants of those Radical Inquisitors who had set it up. They did not use them as infiltrators, because they wanted their services for themselves, directly.
Those Inquisitors were not random Chaos cultists with the intention to destroy the Imperium - it'd make no sense for them to "waste" decades in training for their investment to be randomly shipped off to some place at the other end of the galaxy. They just wanted child soldiers and brainwashed assassins for their own use.
The Inquisitors wouldn't even be able to use their pawns if they had intended otherwise. The Schola does not distribute its children, it notifies the respective Imperial Adepta, who then just takes these graduates and decides for itself how and where to use them. In the case of the Sisterhood, a representative from the Orders Famulous would show up on-site to personally examine the candidate and, if found worthy, arrange transfer to a convent for novitiate. Where the novice eventually ends up is not decided until she has taken her vows on Holy Terra.
Sarouan wrote:It is obvious that with the size of the Imperium, there can't be just "one" Schola Progenium to fill all its needs
Indeed, no argument there!
Sarouan wrote:Story of corruption inside one of them would be quite interesting to read...
There was a bit about this in the 2E Codex around the Age of Apostasy. In the end, this was the reason for why the Ecclesiarchy had implemented stricter regulations, which is why I'm not convinced of the idea that there'd be notable differences when the Church has taken action precisely against such things.
"During the Age of Apostasy in the 36th Millennium, most of the Schola Progenium were corrupted and rife with slavery and depravity. Orphans were used as slave labour in factories and mines making goods for the Ecclesiarchy. Particularly promising individuals were sold to Imperial Commanders as slaves and servants, and the most attractive became concubines for Imperial nobles. The most physically adept were sent to be trained as Frateris Templars or Brides of the Emperor, swelling the corrupt and tyrannical Apostle-Cardinal Goge Vandire's armies with the best recruits. The habitats themselves became associated with licentious practices, and their money was put to questionable ends. In direct contrast, each habitat now maintains a strict separation between the two genders and contact between them is restricted purely to religious ceremonies. Only with this purity can the Progena hope to be elevated to a position within the Emperor's domain."
Sarouan wrote:Absolutely, they're not. I'm just saying Space Marines are even less normal than the first two...because their fluff clearly says they're much more than humans. That's why I find weird people saying marines falling to Chaos is "normal" while saying absolutely "no" when talking about the possibility of sisters being corrupted. While the sisters are, in fact, more humans than marines when compared to the rest of humanity.
I'd argue that physically, Sisters are of course closer to normal humans than Space Marines. Spiritually, however, it is the Space Marines who are closer to normal humans, compared to the Sisters. And corruption works on the spiritual level.
All Marines had a (relatively, depending on local practices) normal life until they were recruited. Marines suffer pride and arrogance - exactly the things that led to the Horus Heresy - and, depending on the Chapter, other human expressions or even pastimes.
The Sisters are almost like robots in this regard. Brainwashed, programmed. They still have personalities, but they are far less "colourful", more uniform and more focused than those of the Astartes. At least this is what I'm reading out of GW's material.
Sarouan wrote:Word Bearers did have faith as well. It seems like it ended quite badly for them.
Maybe the Sisters would suffer a crisis of faith as well if the Emperor would tell them to stop wasting time.
Fortunately, he doesn't seem to be able to do so anytime soon.
Sarouan wrote:That's because they had to fill "Codex: Chaos Space Marines" with stories of corrupted marines. If it was corrupted sisters but no model made for them, it would have no point. That doesn't mean they can't exist in the fluff. Just like whole companies of guardswomen.
They could have had such stories in the SoB Codex, though, just like you also have stories about CSM in the normal Space Marine Codex.
Sarouan wrote:That's because when you keep fighting the Great Enemy for hundred of years, you can't get away with your mind unharmed. If sisters were forced to fight Chaos over and over, I'm not sure their faith would absolutely stayed untouched for all of them.
Maybe, maybe not. Canoness Carmina has led the Order of the Argent Shroud for over a hundred years and doesn't seem to suffer corruption. But that's kind of the point, isn't it? Their sheltered existence and meditation is what seems to "reset" their exposure, and the Major Orders' casualty rates may remove a lot of problems before they even rise up.
Sarouan wrote:But I also play a renegade guard army, so that may be the reason of my own corruption.
That's alright. We're here to help you.
Please report to Excruciation Chamber 1138 at 0800 hours for Arco-flagellation.
Sarouan wrote:No, it's another battle (quite old, I must say...it was from an older edition). A high priest took over his world and rebelled against the Imperium, but got too hungry and wanted to invade the home world of Space Wolves (yeah, he was THAT stupid). Got his ass quite harshly whipped.
Urgh. Yes, Cardinal Bucharis - that story was pure SW fanwank. But this was during the Age of Apostasy; the Ministorum wasn't quite the same back then, thanks to Vandire's machinations.
Not saying the same couldn't happen again in M41 mind you. Priests are much more normal people than Sisters are. For one, they didn't all grow up in the Schola. But there's also a lot of political intrigue going on in the Ministorum. It is not unthinkable that many who rise to power may have used unsavoury means to gain their position.
Sarouan wrote:That's because your forget what human nature is.
Human nature the Sisters had beaten out of their little heads when they were children..
And yes, the exchange is enjoyable! Even though I think we may ultimately end up moving in circles. In 40k, so much tends to rely on interpretation.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:We never see them with some holes in their armor so that they can pleasure themselves during battle, do we ? We never hear about them trying to seduce other space marines in the middle of battle by showing off their manly appeal neither, do we ?
No, according to the Index Astartes they'd do this after battle.
"When Horus laid siege to Terra itself, the Emperor's Children were at his side, but they took little part in the slow process of whittling down the massive defences of the Imperial Palace. Instead Fulgrim turned his Legion loose on the uncontested areas of the planet, where billions of terrified humans cowered at the sight of the followers of Chaos, suddenly stripped of the protection they had counted on from the Palace."
Here is the entire online backup of the article, by the way.
Ultimately, I'm just saying that "every sensation" is rather likely to mean "every sensation", and not "every sensation except sexual pleasure".
TiamatRoar wrote:I assume sisters, being trained from a very early age, are kind of similar to this. However, I find it difficult to imagine that they didn't develop any emotional ties whatsoever while they were children, at least. It's rather hard to raise someone up from a child without creating some emotional ties no matter how stringent you are.
Hard to say. I find it really tough to imagine what life in a Schola must be like, simply because it is so different to what we as normal human beings are used to.
I like to think that, certainly, Sisters would form some kind of emotional ties with their unit - it is said that the Superior "adopts" new recruits into her squad, which makes it feel like some sort of grimdark family, where the Sister Superior is like a sort of ersatz mother who takes care of your needs, but doesn't hold back with corporeal punishment if you make the slightest mistake, or indeed may put a bullet in your head.
TiamatRoar wrote:so how could they find THAT many super-perfect-ultra-faithful-never-fall-to-chaos girls?
The Imperium is large. There's probably a rather big number of Scholas, and the Sisterhood doesn't seem to be huge, given their presence in various battles where we were given numbers of how many troops from which faction showed up.
I'm sure it's sufficient to gather those select 500 who end up taking their vows in the Ecclesiarchal Palace on Terra.
TiamatRoar wrote:Probably less than there are Space Marines, but it'd still be around a magnitude of 200,000 - 500,000 sisters
That's fairly close to my own guesstimate, actually! For the generational thing it might be prudent to note that the Sisterhood grew over time - they had 4.000 when they were founded by Sebastian Thor. Dunno if you included this in your generational calculation.
But I'd say Psienesis' point regarding the self-control is important here. They don't mess around, and their dedication and close-knit lifestyle makes keeping secrets really hard. Especially when every Sister feels a burning desire to confess them herself.
By the way, here are some force organisation charts to exemplify the size of Sororitas forces in comparison to other Imperial elements at major battles: Armageddon 13th Black Crusade
TiamatRoar wrote:So the sisters would have to do a lot of purging in that case and get a LOT of false positives
I'd say they do, in a way. Not because they accuse each other, but because they accuse themselves. The Codex even flat out says this when it talks about them doing "penance for sins (real or otherwise)".
In a way, one could say they have a very low tolerance for their own shortcomings, and this might play a huge role when it actually comes to corruption, as it could be excised before it takes hold for real.
Psienesis wrote:They make them.
Well put.
I think the "raising from infancy" is the important part here.
Troike wrote:Soulstorm, for example, had "millions" (it might've just been a million) of Sisters coming to a world to pray.
Even in Soulstorm it is a matter of interpretation. It says that Kaurava became a holy world where "many millions of Sisters would gather in prayer and preparation for their holy wars" - so it's not a permanent population, but just the amount of visitors passing through. And given that no timeframe is provided, this could well mean that this means millions of sisters ... over thousands of years.
I'm sure Ophelia VII has seen as much, too.
Troike wrote:I myself can think of six:
- Faith and Fire (must read this again soon) - Hammer and Anvil (ditto) - Red and Black (an audiobook) - Daemonifuge - The Death of Antagonis - A short story I forget the name of where a Hospitaller is displeased with some Marines Malevolent
Don't forget Daemonblood!
That story is particularly important for this topic.
Troike wrote:Correct, it does say that. Though that could be referring to Sisters from non-Militant Orders. But maybe not.
It's referring to the convent buildings, and both the Convent Prioris as well as the Convent Sanctorum house more than just Battle Sisters. The numbers we were given in the 2E Codex were 15.000 warriors per Convent.
Troike wrote:After some discussion in another thread, it seems that nothing was actually retconned, just fleshed out. The WD codex actually only said that 100 was the minimum size of a Minor Order, and said nothing about their maximum size. The e-Codex just clarified that 1000 is the maximum size.
That's my opinion, too, anyways. To quote myself from the other thread:
Lynata wrote:We were given an average once ... *rummages* ah, here: "... as well as many lesser sisterhoods comprised of around a hundred or so Battle Sisters ..." - 5E rulebook, Defenders of the Imperium
I thought it makes sense, considering the sizes of Mission (~50) and Commandery (up to 200) level forces given in the 3E Witch Hunter Codex. Commandery in particular was said to be "a term used to describe a smaller convent, perhaps little more than a shrine and a garrison of Battle Sisters cloistered together to defend it", whereas Preceptory (up to 1.000) was said to apply to larger convents "maintained by some, notably the Greater Orders", which does sound as if they'd be an exception for Minor ones.
So ... all of this is fluff we had before, it dates back right to the 3E Codex which had established Minor Orders as subsidiary convents in the first place.
da001 wrote:But I don´t get where did you take the idea of the Sisters NOT involving supernatural powers.
Codex fluff refers to their faith as inspiring them to greater feats, and that Acts of Faith are considered "miraculous by the unschooled". That sounds like a combination of superstition and badass willpower to me.
To take your example - the krak missile wouldn't "hit her face". This is not what the TT represents. The dice roll represents a krak missile detonating so close to that Repentia that everyone would assume that, by all rights, she should be dead, but somehow she continues running towards your men, her body wracked by shrapnel wounds, maybe even missing an arm. But she keeps running towards you, screaming like a mad fury, and your troops gak their pants.
Abstraction. And in a way, this is no different than the Marines' FNP, is it?
Kroothawk wrote: The novel "Grey Knights" also features a whole lot of Sororitas. It is a decent novel from the times when [...] Sororitas could win a fight.
You know, after learning so much SoB fluff, I honestly think that the whole "Sisters are constantly murdered in the fluff" might just be internet hyperbole. On balance, I'd say that I've seen them do well much more than they get slaughtered. I reckon it was just an overreaction to the Bloodtide that started this idea. This is somewhat subjective, though.
TiamatRoar wrote: ....personally I find it ironic that the most faithful and religious organization, going by the wording of the codex, has the least amount of supernatural involved of all the factions
For me, this is a big part of their appeal. No "space magic", just iron willpowers. The Sisters get their edge in this brutal, brutal setting through sheer belief alone. That's pretty damn badass.
da001 wrote: By the way: Space Marines are proud, and emotionally closer to teenagers than men. And most of them do not see the Emperor as a god. So they can be corrupted.
My explanation has always been that, partly, the reason Astartes are easier to corrupt is that their loyalty to Big E get "diluted" with other things. Loyalty to the Primarch, their chapter's own temperment and quirks, things like that. The Sisters, on the other hand, don't really have any of that. For them, it's just Emperor, Emperor, Emperor, as well as some Saints who were/are as into the Emperor as they are.
Lynata wrote: it is said that the Superior "adopts" new recruits into her squad, which makes it feel like some sort of grimdark family, where the Sister Superior is like a sort of ersatz mother who takes care of your needs, but doesn't hold back with corporeal punishment if you make the slightest mistake, or indeed may put a bullet in your head.
Completely supported by the fluff, too. Superiors are tasked with overseeing the "physical and spiritual training" of her squad. So yeah, I suppose that one could view Superiors as grimdark overbearing mothers, if one wanted.
Lynata wrote: Even in Soulstorm it is a matter of interpretation. It says that Kaurava became a holy world where "many millions of Sisters would gather in prayer and preparation for their holy wars" - so it's not a permanent population, but just the amount of visitors passing through. And given that no timeframe is provided, this could well mean that this means millions of sisters ... over thousands of years.
Hmmm, I dunno. The use of "gather" makes it sound like they're all there at once, to me.
Soulstorm did also have Sacred Rose getting their elite Celestians from Ophelia despite SR being based on Terra, and the Acts of Faith going into outright magic. so I'm thinking that the devs might not have had the finer points of SoB lore nailed down.
I know the possibility of Acts of Faith being caused by training, or other "natural" things, has been toyed with before. I know the "miraculous for the unschooled" sentence. But there has always been a rather more obvious explanation, supernatural and related with, well, faith. Psykers, magic, faith, whatever the dark eldar and the necrons do ... are all terms related with the supernatural.
It seems I need to reread the newest codex.
However, if the new codex makes it that clear that Sisters are like they are because of their training... then I am with TiamatRoar: it makes no sense. They should fall to chaos (and other things) left and right.
And I will completely ignore it and still believe that in this setting, faith is completely supernatural. What about people like Euphrati Keller? Saints are just people with faith. And a single human with faith can defeat anything in this setting.
Troike wrote:You know, after learning so much SoB fluff, I honestly think that the whole "Sisters are constantly murdered in the fluff" might just be internet hyperbole.
It may just be a matter of some sources being more well known than others. How many people are reading a Marine bolterporn novel compared to the SoB codices or their own few stories?
Troike wrote:Soulstorm did also have Sacred Rose getting their elite Celestians from Ophelia despite SR being based on Terra, and the Acts of Faith going into outright magic. so I'm thinking that the devs might not have had the finer points of SoB lore nailed down.
And there was a different Living Saint in spite of such creatures only making an appearance every couple hundred years - and not all of them would look like Celestine, obviously.
Yeah, you're probably right about these "finer points". Not really different from many novel authors. I still give them an A for effort. The storyline, the voices, that kind of stuff all fit. And I loved those little bits of fluff you had on their sectors on the campaign map. Like that public declaration that, by Ecclesiarchal decree, the Canoness was now in charge of the city, and that loyal subjects of the Emperor should report to the Commandery at 0900 sharp to receive weapons and be recruited into the Frateris Militia. Followed by a line about how sinners who wished to confess and save their souls should report there at 0845.
This is deliciously grimdark and hilarious at the same time.
da001 wrote:I know the possibility of Acts of Faith being caused by training, or other "natural" things, has been toyed with before. I know the "miraculous for the unschooled" sentence. But there has always been a rather more obvious explanation, supernatural and related with, well, faith. Psykers, magic, faith, whatever the dark eldar and the necrons do ... are all terms related with the supernatural.
Only more obvious if you presuppose the existence of divine magic - would you do the same for all those supposed miracles reported in our real world?
In the end, each of us can choose for themselves how to treat Acts of Faith. As Troike mentioned, Soulstorm gives a clear example of AoF as Space Magic, and FFG's RPG does as well. But like Troike, I too still prefer GW's original material on this, because it makes them all the more badass. And it's not like we don't have the idea of "mind over matter" exist in our world as well. Did you hear about this guy? Perfect example of an AoF. Or FNP - I think those two are related, anyways.
Acts of Faith are categorically described as being non-Psychic in origin, which is why they cannot be dispelled and no kind of DtW test can be made against them.
Of course, no explanation of what they *are* is given, just examples of what they *aren't*.
For what it's worth, GW's own Inquisitor game had an SoB character, and her description actually said that Acts of Faith aren't counted as psychic powers.
da001 wrote: However, if the new codex makes it that clear that Sisters are like they are because of their training... then I am with TiamatRoar: it makes no sense. They should fall to chaos (and other things) left and right.
Not at all. Magic is not the only way to reject Chaos. Look at how adamantium will works, the influence of the warp can be resisted with willpower alone.
da001 wrote: However, if the new codex makes it that clear that Sisters are like they are because of their training...
The new codex doesn't really say anything different to the old codexes on the matter, really. They've all been quite consistent about Acts of Faith.
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Lynata wrote: I still give them an A for effort. The storyline, the voices, that kind of stuff all fit. And I loved those little bits of fluff you had on their sectors on the campaign map. Like that public declaration that, by Ecclesiarchal decree, the Canoness was now in charge of the city, and that loyal subjects of the Emperor should report to the Commandery at 0900 sharp to receive weapons and be recruited into the Frateris Militia. Followed by a line about how sinners who wished to confess and save their souls should report there at 0845.
This is deliciously grimdark and hilarious at the same time.
Oh, me too, me too. They certainly treated the Sisters with respect.
I absolutely loved their voice acting in that. The Immolator and Canoness especially were great. I also liked that one territory description where there's a priest who's torn between his loyalty to the IG and the Ecclesiarchy, all while the Sisters are kicking down doors and burning things on a daily basis.
Also, the part about the Frateris Militia and confessions was even worse than that, IIRC. I think it was 0850 for the milita and 0900 for the confessions. So only ten minutes, and showing up late gets you purged.
da001 wrote: By the way: Space Marines are proud, and emotionally closer to teenagers than men. And most of them do not see the Emperor as a god. So they can be corrupted.
My explanation has always been that, partly, the reason Astartes are easier to corrupt is that their loyalty to Big E get "diluted" with other things. Loyalty to the Primarch, their chapter's own temperment and quirks, things like that. The Sisters, on the other hand, don't really have any of that. For them, it's just Emperor, Emperor, Emperor, as well as some Saints who were/are as into the Emperor as they are.
My explanation is: they were purposefully created that way. The Horus Heresy was part of a plan.
It has been hinted here and there that the primarchs are related with (born from) the Warp. And some old fluff like the first version of the Horus Heresy by William King says it openly. In the original story, the Emperor saw everything up to a particular point of blindness. He didn´t knew what was going to happen past that point. But he knew (and co-orchestrated) everything before. Including the fall of half his sons.
Also, I am not sure the Astartes are easy to corrupt. Humans do not stand a chance. Full regiments of hardened veterans of the Imperial Guard get corrupted so quickly that the Imperium regularly kills them all after a single battle involving chaos unleashed, not allowing them to return to their homes lest the taint spreads.
Troike wrote:Also, the part about the Frateris Militia and confessions was even worse than that, IIRC. I think it was 0850 for the milita and 0900 for the confessions. So only ten minutes, and showing up late gets you purged.
Oh, was it that way around?
And here I thought they're collecting penitents first, then have them shot by the newly recruited zealots.
da001 wrote:Yet Sisters do not fall to Chaos.
Well, their lifestyle is more hardcore than anyone elses.
As has been said, it's that overwhelmingly intense indoctrination that does it. Their willpowers are strengthened enough to be able to resist Chaotic influence.
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Lynata wrote: And here I thought they're collecting penitents first, then have them shot by the newly recruited zealots.
Poor timekeeping is a dire heresy. It needed to be that way around so that they could easily purge the heretics in their midst.
A Tzeentchian trick.
A Nurgle affliction.
A Slaaneshii promise.
A Khornate bloodlust.
Here's some of the better Chaos/Rogue Sister pictures. (IMHO). While searching for this a lot of Chaos SoB concept seem to be "Tits Out", I hope these images prove it doesn't have to be the case. The first image of the particularly ornate Sister is probably my favourite. I'm saddened I couldn't find any Nurgle or Tzeentch Sisters...
More.
da001 wrote:I know the possibility of Acts of Faith being caused by training, or other "natural" things, has been toyed with before. I know the "miraculous for the unschooled" sentence. But there has always been a rather more obvious explanation, supernatural and related with, well, faith. Psykers, magic, faith, whatever the dark eldar and the necrons do ... are all terms related with the supernatural.
Only more obvious if you presuppose the existence of divine magic - would you do the same for all those supposed miracles reported in our real world?
You are asking me if I am or I am not an atheist, if I believe or not in "something" out of what can be explained by reason. This can be the source of our disagreement.
I think the w40k setting works on the premise that miracles happen all the time. And that they are caused by gods... or psy-powers, or magic, or...
In the end, each of us can choose for themselves how to treat Acts of Faith.
Yep. This is what makes this background so good. I already made my choice. I hope they never make the subject clear.
For what it's worth, GW's own Inquisitor game had an SoB character, and her description actually said that Acts of Faith aren't counted as psychic powers.
This is stated many times. Faith, sorcery, psychic powers... are different.
da001 wrote: However, if the new codex makes it that clear that Sisters are like they are because of their training... then I am with TiamatRoar: it makes no sense. They should fall to chaos (and other things) left and right.
Not at all. Magic is not the only way to reject Chaos. Look at how adamantium will works, the influence of the warp can be resisted with willpower alone.
Only for a few seconds, only if it is raw power (a blast of energy instead of a lie you hear from your best friend), only if you are lucky
da001 wrote: However, if the new codex makes it that clear that Sisters are like they are because of their training...
The new codex doesn't really say anything different to the old codexes on the matter, really. They've all been quite consistent about Acts of Faith.
Good. I was concerned.
There is a high possibility that some writers in the GW current studio see the Sisters as "Imperial Guard +1". That would explain the state of the full faction. I must admit I would fail to see the point of the army if faith (the way I understand it, supernatural is turn mundane (good training + will power). Most guardsmen believe in the divinity of the Emperor. If a Hive world replicates the Schola Progenia training, what would be the difference? We will get billions of uncorruptibles. I understand that some of you do not see it that way, but it will kill my interest in the army for sure
(...) Soulstorm
I still play that game. Best game ever. New mods are developed all the time (Dark Angels just arrived, Demons soon to get a new version...). And it is quite respectful with the spirit of the setting.
A Tzeentchian trick.
A Nurgle affliction.
A Slaaneshii promise.
A Khornate bloodlust.
Except they can't. They are, by their Codex, "utterly incorruptible". They, like the Grey Knights, have exactly zero studio characters having fallen to Chaos.
Well I believe there was an old WD back when the Daemon Hunters codex was out that allowed you to have Daemons in your army.
It offered situations in which normally uncorruptable (the one I can remember is Tau) forces could have Daemons within their ranks. They gave a variety of situations in which this could happen. Daemonic Artifacts disguised as holy relics etc. I don't have the details as that WD was lost to the ages long ago. (I'm sure somebody will have it still).
Anything is possible in 40k. It's partially why the fluff is so vague in parts. Even the concrete stuff can be swept aside and replaced. The concept of Chaos SoB doesn't dilute the faction. They don't have to be common but they can theoretically exist. Orders that have fallen could be expunged from all Imperial Records or be Excommunicated and technically no longer be "Sisters". Who knows.
da001 wrote: However, if the new codex makes it that clear that Sisters are like they are because of their training... then I am with TiamatRoar: it makes no sense. They should fall to chaos (and other things) left and right.
Not at all. Magic is not the only way to reject Chaos. Look at how adamantium will works, the influence of the warp can be resisted with willpower alone.
Only for a few seconds, only if it is raw power (a blast of energy instead of a lie you hear from your best friend), only if you are lucky
Nope, it can work for an extended period. Here, look at this:
The Sisters in it are simply immune to a Nurglite plague, which would be constant presence and threat rather than a solitary attack. In a similar vein, Anastasia herself suffers the plague for days before finally fighting it off.
Now, I know that your response will likely be that it could have been the power of faith that protected them, but I think that this ties in nicely with what the SoB codexes say and the idea behind Adamantium will. Stong willpower alone acting as a bulwark against Chaos.
I disagree. They are wholly defined by their extreme, unrelenting faith. If GW were to simply disregard that and start haivng multiple Sisters falling, then the Sisters have lost a big part of what makes them special. How is their faith (their defining aspect) meant to look impressive if it is broken multiple times?
I think you are thinking of Codex: Daemonhunters? That is the old GK + Inquisition Codex. However, the SOB were in Codex: Witch-Hunters, which had a different aspect of the Inquisition, who did not bring Daemonhosts to the table. There weren't ally rules in those days, either, so mixing things out of different books wasn't officially legit.
In C: DH, you could have a Daemonhost in your Inquisitor Army *if* you did not have Grey Knight units on the table. The Daemonhost, however, was a stand-alone unit type and model, not one selected from a squad already on the table (as Possession and such would do in Chaos armies). So, however the Inquisitor dragging it along with him/her got it, it was done before they arrived at this battlefield.
Also, while some fluff *is* vague, the "utterly incorruptible" line from C:AS is not.
Edit: Bah, response intended for Medium of Death up there...
It was a WD article to justify why the Grey Knights would be fighting another army. The situation I remember was a Tau ethereal being transformed into a Greater Daemon of Tzeentch after coming into contact with an artifact. It was more scenario based. Its an example of the incorruptable being corrupted and while not directly SoB, it's certainly out there. I'm not sure if Witch Hunters were included in the article.
The concept of the SoB start off with them being fooled by a despotic man, I'm sure their sucessors aren't completely immune to the trickery of the Chaos Gods. I still think the possibility of expunging records or excommunication is valid.
Troike wrote: - A short story I forget the name of where a Hospitaller is displeased with some Marines Malevolent
Does she kills them all and then sends their progenoid glands on a stick to the Malevolent chapter master, along with a written note which just contains a big feth YOU ? I sure hope she does !
Medium of Death wrote: Here's some of the better Chaos/Rogue Sister pictures. (IMHO). While searching for this a lot of Chaos SoB concept seem to be "Tits Out", I hope these images prove it doesn't have to be the case. The first image of the particularly ornate Sister is probably my favourite. I'm saddened I couldn't find any Nurgle or Tzeentch Sisters...
Ah, that's totally different. That's not the Sisters being corrupted, that's some priest somewhere, whom the Sisters work with/for, being members of the Ecclesiarchy as they are, not knowing that he's corrupted/possessed/whatever and following what seem to be normal orders. In this event, it is not the Sisters being corrupted, but a non-Sister NPC.
Don't forget, it is the job of the Sisters to purge heretical Space Marine Chapters. Im sure there's been issues in the past where some Successor (or even Founding) Chapter has gotten pissed at the Sisters for putting their ancestor/decendent Chapter to the torch and come looking for payback.
da001 wrote: However, if the new codex makes it that clear that Sisters are like they are because of their training... then I am with TiamatRoar: it makes no sense. They should fall to chaos (and other things) left and right.
Not at all. Magic is not the only way to reject Chaos. Look at how adamantium will works, the influence of the warp can be resisted with willpower alone.
Only for a few seconds, only if it is raw power (a blast of energy instead of a lie you hear from your best friend), only if you are lucky
Nope, it can work for an extended period. Here, look at this:
The Sisters in it are simply immune to a Nurglite plague, which would be constant presence and threat rather than a solitary attack. In a similar vein, Anastasia herself suffers the plague for days before finally fighting it off.
Now, I know that your response will likely be that it could have been the power of faith that protected them, but I think that this ties in nicely with what the SoB codexes say and the idea behind Adamantium will. Stong willpower alone acting as a bulwark against Chaos.
My response (thanks for the copy-paste): it could have been he power of faith that protected them.
Not the willpower. They are Sisters of Battle, they are immune to a plague sent by the Plague God himself. This cannot be explained by willpower alone. Show me an unfaithful doing the same. However,
Spoiler:
if you actually manage to do that, I will point out that atheism is in itself a religion, and start talking nonsense about Malal
Just like coward Space Marines, Chaos Grey Knights, a Sister of Battle having a relationship with a tau ethereal, or (shudders) a necron with human feelings who gets along with Astartes.
I am OK with someone doing Chaos Sisters for fun. I like the concept. But if GW decides to go there... that´s another completely different thing.
Whole Orders? Nope. If not a single Sister falls to Chaos in the studio fluff, then a whole Order is certainly not going to fall.
For me that would be like talking about a full chapter of coward Space Marines, a full brotherhood of Grey Knights secretly corrupted by Chaos which leader is called brother captain Alpharius, a relationship between a Sister of Battle and a tau ethereal being blessed by the Ecclessiarchy with a new codex allowing you to field their offspring in the table, or whatever abomination is He Who Can Not Be Mentioned pondering for his next Codex.
Fun if it is fanfiction. But if it is a faction you really like... it is not fun.
action you really like... it is not fun.
Fair enough, if you want to through a relatively reasonable suggestion against ridiculous examples that's fine.
SoB are just Humans in Power Armour. They don't have anything other than blind faith to protect them. With all the power of the Chaos Gods it is not completely unlikely for it to happen.
Lorgar and the Word Bearers, were the most devout and yet one catastrophic act shattered his faith in the Emperor and sought him to find new Gods.
They are humans, but they have gone through an entire lifetime of heavy indoctrination, and live lives utterly devoted to their belief. They're not ordinary humans.
One thing that you have to remember about the Sisters is that they are not just IG in power armour, not just zealots with fancy equipment. These are people who, even in a Imperium known for running on relgious fervor, are noted for their extreme faith.
Which is exactly what protects against Chaos. See the examples posted ITT, the sheer belief of the Sisters does protect them.
Medium of Death wrote: Lorgar and the Word Bearers, were the most devout and yet one catastrophic act shattered his faith in the Emperor and sought him to find new Gods.
Not a valid comparison. This came up earlier actually, and as Lynata pointed out, it's hardly likely that the Emperor is able to tell the Sisters to stop worshiping him. And depending on your interpretation of Celestine, one could even say that he might just approve of their faith.
Medium of Death wrote: It was a WD article to justify why the Grey Knights would be fighting another army. The situation I remember was a Tau ethereal being transformed into a Greater Daemon of Tzeentch after coming into contact with an artifact. It was more scenario based. Its an example of the incorruptable being corrupted and while not directly SoB, it's certainly out there. I'm not sure if Witch Hunters were included in the article.
The concept of the SoB start off with them being fooled by a despotic man, I'm sure their sucessors aren't completely immune to the trickery of the Chaos Gods. I still think the possibility of expunging records or excommunication is valid.
I am not sure if this is what you are talking about. There is a section in the Daemonhunters Codex (really cool book) giving the players reasons to fight other armies. Because Daemonhunters fought demons, and that was their full-time job. They did not patrol the full galaxy fighting xenos until 5th edition. I am translating the Tau entry:
Tau:
1) The Emperor´s Tarot says a Tau leader is corrupted.
2) The Tau are attacking a sacred place and demons are taking advantage of this.
3) A psyker or a possessed has been taken prisoner by the Tau
4) The Tau have found a demonic contraption are they are turning it on to see what happen. They do not know what it is.
5) The Tau are attacking a relic (an altar world?)
Unless you are talking about something else, it clearly hints that Tau do not get corrupted too. And I am not sure about comparing Tau with Sisters of Battle or Grey Knights regarding the warp.
Also... both Daemonhunters and Witch-hunters Codexes lack a DH Vs WH section, which is telling. However you may be talking about a White Dwarf report... sounds interesting.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Medium of Death wrote: Fair enough, if you want to through a relatively reasonable suggestion against ridiculous examples that's fine.
I apologize if I sounded aggressive. But a full order of SoB turning chaos is ridiculous to me. They are described as being incorruptible. What´s the point of the Sisters of Battle then? They would be just Humans in Power Armour.
SoB are just Humans in Power Armour.
See?
The next sentence is usually "I don´t get why they are a separate faction, they could be rolled with the Inquisition or the Imperial Guard".
Grey Knights are also described as being incorruptible. It also stretches belief. But what would happen if you take this out? What would be the point of the Grey Knights?
They don't have anything other than blind faith to protect them. With all the power of the Chaos Gods it is not completely unlikely for it to happen.
But all the power of the Emperor protects them. Or this is the way many see the army. Living Saints are Greater Demons, and Sisters are the equivalent of marked troops. They follow a god and this god actively protects them. That´s the key point here.
Lorgar and the Word Bearers, were the most devout and yet one catastrophic act shattered his faith in the Emperor and sought him to find new Gods.
Not relevant, but I really think the Emperor did this on purpose.
And primarchs behave like teenagers.
Troike wrote:They are humans, but they have gone through an entire lifetime of heavy indoctrination, and live lives utterly devoted to their belief. They're not ordinary humans. One thing that you have to remember about the Sisters is that they are not just IG in power armour, not just zealots with fancy equipment. These are people who, even in a Imperium known for running on relgious fervor, are noted for their extreme faith.
Which, in GW's own words, makes them "equals to their brother Space Marines."
I've went through a few of my books, just in case anyone wants to read what has been written and repeated in studio ever since this army existed:
"Before a battle, members of the Ecclesiarchy perform various ceremonies for the soldiers, asking for the Emperor's guidance and protection. They lead the faithful in prayer, dedicating their souls to the undying Emperor. By means of these special ceremonies they can instil their followers with an unshakeable faith in the Emperor, driving them on to even higher acts of bravery or determination and strengthening people's minds against the perils of enemy psykers." - 2E C:SoB, Sacred Rites
"One of the Adepta Sororitas' greatest weapons is faith, and their zeal is a potent force, manifesting as divine inspiration that drives the Sororitas to unprecedented levels of performance." - 3E C:CA
"The training regimes practiced by the Battle Sisters of the Orders Militant are derived from the martial values of the original Daughters of the Emperor, and were initially laid down by the Daughters' mistresses at their San Leor shrinehold. For millennia, the Sisters have practiced their unique method of war, combining combat doctrine and prayer which enables them to accomplish feats upon the battlefield that appear miraculous to the unschooled." - 3E C:WH
"The Sisters of Battle can draw upon the wellspring of their faith to guide their actions. Absolute belief in the Imperial Creed allows Sisters of Battle to perform the seemingly impossible." - 5E C:SoB
"The Sisters of Battle are taught that faith is a shield stronger than any armour. Such is the power of their belief that the Emperor will protect them that the Adepta Sororitas can shrug off the most severe of wounds and resist the witchcraft of enemy sorcerers." - 6E C:SoB
... and since I'm already at it ...
"The Battle Sisters are utterly dedicated to the Emperor. Their one purpose is to strive for his honour and glory and to protect the Imperium from all threats. The faith of the Adepta Sororitas is unswerving, they are raised from birth to believe the Emperor is the only hope for humanity. Their pious, rigid way of life allows the Battle Sisters no room for pleasure, there is only prayer and war. There is nothing an enemy could offer them, they are impossible to bribe and totally incorruptible." - WD #211
"The Sisters of Battle are trained to the highest levels with an unshakeable faith in the divinity of the Emperor. Their fanatical devotion and unwavering purity is a bastion against corruption, heresy and alien attack. [...] The Sisters are incorruptible warriors, each dedicating her life to penitent worship and the rigorous training of mind, body and spirit." - 3E C:CA
"When combined with their unquenchable faith, they are a force to be reckoned with, forming an army of totally incorruptible and highly motivated warriors who enforce the will of the Emperor, as interpreted by the Ecclesiarchy, with precise volleys of bolter fire." - 6E C:SoB
Of course all of this is just one side of the medal. Maybe this is all just propaganda, exaggerated like the exploits of the (not so mighty?) Space Marines. In the end, I just wanted to point at the books as a way of defending this perspective as at least equally valid against what one may have read in some novel or wherever. The rest is up to interpretation and personal preferences.
The human body seems capable of much more than we permit it to do - it just seems to require a specific mindset, perhaps even a specific situation, to unlock its full potential. It could at least explain stuff like a 22 year old girl lifting a 2.5 ton car off her dad.
da001 wrote: The next sentence is usually "I don´t get why they are a separate faction, they could be rolled with the Inquisition or the Imperial Guard".
I don't get why they are a separate faction, all color space marines should be rolled into the Sisters dex. Let's put all the marines in the Elite section, because they are so Elite. And then forget about them, and find new Sisters unit to fill the rest of the book .
da001 wrote: The next sentence is usually "I don´t get why they are a separate faction, they could be rolled with the Inquisition or the Imperial Guard".
I don't get why they are a separate faction, all color space marines should be rolled into the Sisters dex. Let's put all the marines in the Elite section, because they are so Elite. And then forget about them, and find new Sisters unit to fill the rest of the book .
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: I don't get why they are a separate faction, all color space marines should be rolled into the Sisters dex. Let's put all the marines in the Elite section, because they are so Elite. And then forget about them, and find new Sisters unit to fill the rest of the book .
I chuckled. Here, take this exalt.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Does she kills them all and then sends their progenoid glands on a stick to the Malevolent chapter master, along with a written note which just contains a big feth YOU ? I sure hope she does !
Don't think so. The description made it sound more like she's tending the wounded whilst being all idealistic, and then the Marines Malevolent come along being spankers and she gets upset about it.
The human body seems capable of much more than we permit it to do - it just seems to require a specific mindset, perhaps even a specific situation, to unlock its full potential. It could at least explain stuff like a 22 year old girl lifting a 2.5 ton car off her dad.
Interesting links. One can make a good case for AoFs not being magical using stuff like this, since I don't think that they're really any less crazy than a lot of the things the Sisters pull off.
I guess this explains the priest getting smash, then.
Yeah, I think this is what the writers were gunning for - taking stories like these, and the many supposed miracles that were documented in real world history, and turning the exception into a rule (figuratively and literally).
It is often said that the Sisters are an army of Jeanne d'Arcs, so it kind of fits to that myth.
er a sister of battle has fallen to chaos so in my opinion they are not utterly incorruptible. Its very hard to make them fall but they are not immune to corruption hence why they have their current life style.
Oh and that sister in red chaos armor? Looks down right badass we should have more chaos sisters in my opinion if they look that good plus Miriael looks great too in my opinion I think they keep corrupted sisters on the down low considering the short story with Miriael. Lets not forget the codex is like propaganda for the faction IMO.
Now I think a whole army of chaos sisters? erm no that sounds waaay out there but a sister chaos lord like Miriael or a squad of sister chosen? I could see it happening.
As we've pointed out a few times ITT, there are zero studio characters of fallen Sisters. There's one from a third-party licensed product, and a wider variety from miscellaneous Black Library books.
Per their Codices and other GW publications... which BL novels are under no requirement to follow... they are completely incorruptible, just like the Grey Knights.
ETA: One is, of course, free to paint their models however they like and write whatever fluff they want for them. The question, though, was "is it fluffy?", the answer to which is "not really, no". Even taking Miriael into account, that was one Sister who turned under extremely rare circumstances and under some of Chaos' biggest guns for the attempt.
Personally I think having a group of incorruptible people is not really that interesting and with the grey knights they are constantly worrying about who is going to be the first one to fall they went far enough to use a blood ritual I think that en riches their incorruptible background.
Well thats just my opinion on the subject. In my opinion even if you don't agree we have one corrupted sister and I say if the OP can come up with a good reason I say he goes for it.
I am looking at Miriael wiki page and one of the sources say. Now I don't have these codex's since they are rather old so I won't say anything else. As I said before I could see a chaos force having like one lord or a squad not a whole army. As I said before if OP can make a good reason go for it.
Codex: Chaos Space Marines (3rd Edition, 1st Codex)
Codex: Sisters of Battle (2nd Edition), pp. 18-19, 35
Troike wrote: That wiki page's sources are wrong, Miriael never appeared in a codex. And it's highly likely that a lot of the info on her there is made up too.
Fair enough. Anyway thats it for me OP just do what you want.
One of the reasons for why I'm always cautioning against fan-edited wikis, and recommend looking at the original sources.
I don't know whether the claim that she was in the Codex was first posted on 40kWiki and was then adopted by Lexicanum, or whether it was the other way around, but I do remember looking it up and not finding what the wikis claimed. Lexicanum has since removed that statement as one of its editors is also posting here and probably saw my posts on the subject.
I still like Miriael and have adopted her into my headcanon, but I remain adamantly opposed against turning an exception into something more, as I feel it makes the event and the character less remarkable. Matter of taste, though. With 40k, what's "fluffy" and what not often depends a lot on interpretation and preferences.
shinros wrote: Personally I think having a group of incorruptible people is not really that interesting and with the grey knights they are constantly worrying about who is going to be the first one to fall they went far enough to use a blood ritual I think that en riches their incorruptible background.
Well thats just my opinion on the subject. In my opinion even if you don't agree we have one corrupted sister and I say if the OP can come up with a good reason I say he goes for it.
I am looking at Miriael wiki page and one of the sources say. Now I don't have these codex's since they are rather old so I won't say anything else. As I said before I could see a chaos force having like one lord or a squad not a whole army. As I said before if OP can make a good reason go for it.
Codex: Chaos Space Marines (3rd Edition, 1st Codex)
Codex: Sisters of Battle (2nd Edition), pp. 18-19, 35
As others have posted, Miriael appears in no official, GW-produced product. She is from a Dan Abnett short story and a 3rd-party 40K-themed card game.
But, again, like I said earlier, I don't care what someone does with their own models or what fluff they write for them. They can do whatever they want with their money and time. I'm simply providing the background and answers to the question of whether or not it fits into the Codex background for the Army, which it does not.
Shoot, I like the concept of Miriael myself, and the way she's presented, but I wouldn't use her in my DH games or anything, I have a few other characters with more history with my gaming group that can take that role and have a bigger story impact by their presence than someone I would have to explain.
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Does she kills them all and then sends their progenoid glands on a stick to the Malevolent chapter master, along with a written note which just contains a big feth YOU ? I sure hope she does !
Don't think so. The description made it sound more like she's tending the wounded whilst being all idealistic, and then the Marines Malevolent come along being spankers and she gets upset about it.
I sincerely hope this ideal she's idealistically pursuing involves planting scalpels deep into the brain of Malevolent Marines by going through the soft eyeball instead of the though skull, which might damage this holy instrument quite useful to dispense the Emperor's healing.
And progenoid glands brochette !
So far in the fluff I've seen, most sisters seem to actually follow protocol and forward issues up the chain of command as expected of a proper military organization so that a proper investigation may begin. The whole "They torture anything they even remotely suspect of heresy!!!" thing only really showed up in the Dawn of War Soulstorm game.
Well, in the Armageddon global campaign fluff, the Argent Shroud supposedly has a kind of a reputation with Imperial forces, from Space Marines to Imperial Guard.
Most of the IoM's internal problems seem to come from there not being a straight chain of command - or rather, that a lot of organisations have overlapping responsibilities, and like to assume responsibility (read: authority) over others. Everyone (except the Inquisition) is supposed to play ball and do what the High Lords tell them, but as it is a big galaxy, the High Lords are busy people, and interstellar communication is not exactly instantaneous, this creates a lot of opportunity, even necessity, for local commanders to take charge of the situation, and bully their allies into submission. The only exception is when the High Lords nominate a Warmaster, or the factions present in the area hold a vote. Or, of course, when you've got an Inquisitor snooping around, though I imagine most of them have better things to do than playing nannies for the various Imperial Adepta.
Lynata wrote: Well, in the Armageddon global campaign fluff, the Argent Shroud supposedly has a kind of a reputation with Imperial forces, from Space Marines to Imperial Guard.
Hmm, nice. Assuming the Imperial Commander is downplaying things a bit in order to be polite (a reasonable enough assumption), that would be a good fluff case of an SoB order that goes a bit overboard in purging other Imperial Organizations after a while (from the point of view of those other Imperial Organizations). Although I do find it a convenient narrative "coincidence" that their latest leader is more reasonable than prior ones.
It's probably a good representation of what happens when Sisters are "bored" and hang around in a deployment zone without having things to shoot. They suddenly find themselves surrounded by normal people, and start applying their own strict rules to them.
It's a kind of "reverse reality shock" where the Sisters are confronted with life outside the convent walls, and they think that normal people are the aberration because every proper Imperial servant would live as they do.
Just point them into the direction of something even more heretical than a Necromundan ganger or a Savlar Chem-Dog, and they'll leave them be and focus on the actual enemy.
Lynata wrote: It's probably a good representation of what happens when Sisters are "bored" and hang around in a deployment zone without having things to shoot. They suddenly find themselves surrounded by normal people, and start applying their own strict rules to them.
It's a kind of "reverse reality shock" where the Sisters are confronted with life outside the convent walls, and they think that normal people are the aberration because every proper Imperial servant would live as they do.
Just point them into the direction of something even more heretical than a Necromundan ganger or a Savlar Chem-Dog, and they'll leave them be and focus on the actual enemy.
Yea, that fluff piece you linked to even explicitly singled out the "regarded each other with suspicion OFF the battlefield". On the battlefield, they seem to operate just fine with other Imperial forces (judging by how the fluff praised their in-battle actions and called them inspirational), which is how I've always thought of them as well.
I suppose the pieces I was thinking of in particular were in regards to the Marines Malevolent and the Flesh Tearers. In those cases, instead of attacking the marine chapter, they wrote to High Command of their "concerns" on the issue rather than give judgement themselves. However, the fluff piece you linked to also makes it clear they take matters into their own hands sometimes since it mentions an attack of the Ardent Shroud on a Space Marine chapter that, going by the tone of the piece, that Imperial Commander and many others believed was a bit harsh. I guess it varies from time to time, and order to order (after all, the fluff piece about the sister's "concerns" regarding the Flesh Tearers instead of just having her order come down on them comes from the same Armegeddon source, even)
A lot depends on who writes a particular piece of fluff (just look at that other thread with the reviews on the Sisters' portrayal in the "Blood of Asaheim" novel), but in-universe there also seems to be a certain range on how their leaders (the Canonesses and Sisters Superior) can differ in personality and avoid the cardboard-cutout cliché, without actually "breaking the mold" that shapes them into what they are. After all, unbreakable faith can express itself both in aggressive zealotry as well as calm determination. According to the Liber Sororitas, the different Orders feature certain tendencies that have its Sisters develop more strongly into one direction or another, depending on which Founding Saint they adore and feel inspired by. Simultaneously, most commanders likely choose and groom their own successors, which would often include a matching outlook on how to handle things. But still, depending on the circumstances, and an individual Sister's capabilities and skill, an Order could experience a slight shift in its "level of aggression" as it changes leadership, even though such changes likely never extend to every single Sororitas in the convent, making it a matter of clarity of orders limiting the interpretation and improvisation of squad leaders in the field.
There you go. da001 has quoted the opinions of Troike and Furyou Miko on how the Sisters were treated in that novel in the 1st spoiler of the linked post.
Besides, there's no such thing as an original idea in 40K, so it isn't even worth mentioning, other than to be needlessly unpleasant (this is a Sisters thread though, so unpleasant people are to be expected). The whole hobby is a rip-off of other ideas, themes, tropes, and sometimes only thinly veiled theft of intellectual property. And there's really nothing wrong with that. But realistically, there aren't that many "Chaos Tau" or "Chaos Sisters" floating around out there. Put "Chaos Tau" into Google. Tell me just exactly how many relevant search results it gives you. The reality is that sometimes people have the same idea. And the TS never asked if it was an original idea, just if it would work with the fluff. The answer is yes, it does.
The reality is, there's a precedence for everything in 40K because it's a universe that has been built around the idea that basically nothing is impossible other than female Space Marines and a reconciliation between players when it comes to the canon. There have been numerous examples of corrupted Sisters in the assorted fluff, and the likely reason why there is no rules for them in the tabletop codex books? Sisters of Battle players are a tiny percentage of total players as is. GW isn't going to make rules and models for a Chaos version of everything, and certainly have less incentive to make them for the models they don't even sell the regular versions of in large quantities. Why does only Forgeworld make Chaos Ogryns? Because GW doesn't even bother to try to sell the regular ones anymore.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: The reality is, there's a precedence for everything in 40K because it's a universe that has been built around the idea that basically nothing is impossible other than female Space Marines
So you're cool with anything happening in the 40K fluff, regardless of deviance from previous canon, but female Marines is the one thing that goes too far? That seems oddly specific. If you're taking the mindset that anything can indeed happen, then female Marines is as easy as the Imperium somehow finding a new/improved process for creating Marines that allows for female recipients. Even easier, Slaanesh could, and probably would, flip a Marine's gender.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: There have been numerous examples of corrupted Sisters in the assorted fluff, the likely reason why there is no rules for them in the tabletop codex books? Sisters of Battle players are a tiny percentage of total players as is.
Or, you know, the codexes have consistently talked about resistant to corruption the Sisters are. When you've got years of codex fluff talking about how strong their faith is, of course there isn't going to be any fluff or rules for Chaos Sisters.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: [(this is a Sisters thread though, so unpleasant people are to be expected)
How was I being unpleasant? I was just talking about the nature of 40K fluff and making some counter-points to your points on it. Business as usual on a 40K forum, really.
Your tone is rude, condescending, and combative, coming right from my post talking about how the previous poster was rude and combative for no reason.
Let's be realistic here. You're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem, lol. And you just so happen to be one of the typical posters in a Sisters of Battle thread.
Point... proven.
Chaos corrupted female Marines aren't Space Marines. They are Chaos Space Marines. There are almost no consistent pieces of fluff in 40K. One of the only things that was printed in the 80s, and still exists now in more or less it's exact same form, is that when they make Space Marines for whatever "It's science" reasons, only works with male zygotes.
But, that's exactly my point, which you missed in your hurry to be unpleasant, is that there's almost nothing impossible in 40K, nothing that has changed, even fundamentally, other than "Space Marines are all male". And I'm not saying it couldn't change. I'm just saying it hasn't. You were apparently in too much of a hurry to fail at being clever to realize that.
And there aren't "years" of Sisters codex books saying anything, lol. There have been two, if we're going to live by the rules of studio material being the only "official" stuff. And the 2nd Edition book doesn't say a thing about them being incorruptible.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:(this is a Sisters thread though, so unpleasant people are to be expected)
Was there really any need for this?
To be fair, he kind of delivered the proof in the same breath as the claim.
This is far from the first SoB thread where he shows up with such an attitude (which he himself fails to recognise), so I suppose it's a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:And there aren't "years" of Sisters codex books saying anything, lol. There have been two, if we're going to live by the rules of studio material being the only "official" stuff. And the 2nd Edition book doesn't say a thing about them being incorruptible.
Aside from you apparently not being aware of the Sisters' army lists in the Codex Imperialis, Codex Witch Hunters, White Dwarf #211, Chapter Approved 2002, the 3rd edition rulebook, and the 5E White Dwarf minidex, ...
(not all of those count as codices, but they all count as studio rules)
"Formed from the most physically adept of the Adepta Sororitas, the Battle Sisters of the Orders Militant are the main fighting force of the Ecclesiarchy. Totally incorruptible and dedicated to a life of penitent worship and humble living, the Sororitas are used to enforce the will of the Emperor as interpreted by the Ecclesiarch and the Holy Synod." - 2E C:SoB p.57
The problem is, I never arrive in these threads with such an attitude. It's just that I have expert opinions the unpleasant people don't like. And I'm better at being unpleasant once provoked because my feelings can't be hurt and I'm not emotionally invested in any of the topics.
The problem is, you're taking fluff text and enacting it as if it was anything other than the same kind of meaningless filler that all codex books have. Space Marines are also described as "Utterly loyal" (C:UM p.49). It's just more codex hyperbole. The reality is that there is nothing in that book that describes the Sisters as having any kind of resistance to corruption. This, however, is an advantage for obstinate Sisters fans. Because the game doesn't care about their fluff, there isn't much of it.
I told the Iron Hands players to be careful what they wished for. Typically, having GW ignore your faction and its fluff is the best thing that ever happened to them.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: Your tone is rude, condescending, and combative, coming right from my post talking about how the previous poster was rude and combative for no reason.
And coming in and calling regular participants in SoB threads "unpleasant people" is perfectly polite?
Veteran Sergeant wrote: Chaos corrupted female Marines aren't Space Marines. They are Chaos Space Marines. There are almost no consistent pieces of fluff in 40K. One of the only things that was printed in the 80s, and still exists now in more or less it's exact same form, is that when they make Space Marines for whatever "It's science" reasons, only works with male zygotes.
But, that's exactly my point, which you missed in your hurry to be unpleasant, is that there's almost nothing impossible in 40K, nothing that has changed, even fundamentally, other than "Space Marines are all male". And I'm not saying it couldn't change. I'm just saying it hasn't. You were apparently in too much of a hurry to fail at being clever to realize that.
Actually, you didn't say any of this earlier. You just said that "no female Marines" was the one thing in 40K fluff that was impossible.
Also, a Marine who betrays the Emperor and goes over to Chaos is still a Space Marine. And even then, a Marine needn't join Chaos to be altered by it. I recall somebody mentioning how, in the latest Daemons codex, Tzeentch just gives some Marines the ability to know when somebody is lying.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: And there aren't "years" of Sisters codex books saying anything, lol. There have been two, if we're going to live by the rules of studio material being the only "official" stuff. And the 2nd Edition book doesn't say a thing about them being incorruptible.
In addition to what Lynata posted, all of these sources have reiterated the "very faithful, very incorruptible" angles of the Sisters. Right to the present day.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: The reality is that there is nothing in that book that describes the Sisters as having any kind of resistance to corruption.
Sure there is. They did and currently have Adamantium Will, and there's some studio fluff (from a WD, I think) that talks about how they are impossible to bribe or bargain with.
And you got offended when I said people in these threads are unpleasant. I'm not your buddy, guy.
You're grasping at straws regardless. A Space Marine is created, from geneseed, using a young male child. If he later switches to Chaos, and Chaos turns him into a girl, it doesn't change the fact that he had to be male to be a Space Marine in the first place. A Chaos Space Marine is just that. These aren't individually separable terms. It's not a guy who is a Marine, in Space, being Chaotic. He's not a Space Marine serving Chaos. He's a Space Marine which has been irretrievably corrupted, and become a Chaos Space Marine. If he's one which was created as a Chaos Space Marine using stolen geneseed, he's still not a Space Marine, because Chaos is the logic and reality defying essence of 40K. It gets to do what it wants to.
See, Chaos Space Marines aren't an exception to a rule. They're an entirely different set of rules. But hey, the only place even female Chaos Space Marines exist are in fan fluff too.
... if they weren't, they wouldn't call them "Chaos Space Marines". It's right there in their name. If they weren't, they'd have an entirely different name for them.
Regardless, you know that when the counter-argument is semantic, there is no counter-argument.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Psienesis wrote: ... if they weren't, they wouldn't call them "Chaos Space Marines". It's right there in their name. If they weren't, they'd have an entirely different name for them.
There are Mexican Marines too, so they must be the exact same thing as British Royal Marines.
I mean, if they weren't they wouldn't call them Marines. It's right there in their name.
Only because the original argument is so deviated from any sense of logic or continuity. The premise that "Chaos Space Marines aren't Space Marines" is flat-out ludicrous. It's less an argument and more an ill-formed and ill-thought opinion, one having no basis or bearing in reality, so obviously self-contradicting, straight out of the gate, that attempting to seriously argue against it provides it with far more legitimacy than it deserves.
A Tzeentchian trick.
A Nurgle affliction.
A Slaaneshii promise.
A Khornate bloodlust.
Here's some of the better Chaos/Rogue Sister pictures. (IMHO). While searching for this a lot of Chaos SoB concept seem to be "Tits Out", I hope these images prove it doesn't have to be the case. The first image of the particularly ornate Sister is probably my favourite. I'm saddened I couldn't find any Nurgle or Tzeentch Sisters...
More.
Spoiler:
I think sisters could probably fall to chaos too. It's more a matter of every single sister not totally being pure esp. from experiences had over all there years. Certainly some get captured and turned or possibly what they see casts doubt. Also maybe all that brainwashing doesn't completely go through to their own opinions just what they're forced to say aloud.
In warhammer fantasy the lore around Archaeon the everchosen the current supreme leader of chaos forces was actually previously a devout empire priest. It even says that the gods of chaos take particular joy in corrupting those that are devout or something to that effect. What happened is he learned a terrible secret in some of the old manuscripts he read and thought his whole life a lie. He basically went mad and killed his own family. Yeah....point being I think some sisters would end up like him.
Personally I don't mind the idea of slaaneshi sisters but it doesn't have to mean they're sexual. Sometimes sure but you see slaanesh is the prince of excess and their extremely disciplined lifestyle might force them to go in the opposite direction as seen in real life. It could just mean eating what you want, doing drugs a ton, listening to loud music and a lot of other things including sexual things. Lol it's like they turn into miley cyrus. The point though is that they live for the extremes like speed, thrill, loud music, bright colors, etc.
I can see a lot of other chaos gods having their turn at the other sisters. Generally you'd imagine older sisters or ones that fear dying would go nurgle. Khorne is an obvious choice for the ones that are very melee oriented and with a blood frenzy. Tzeentch would honestly be a nice one since he's all about tricking people. Seriously I don't think it's that hard for a god that's been around for millennia or even millions of years or more and knows everything about intricate plans and subtlety to trick some little initiate sister with a strict lifestyle into believing something. I mean he could force her to think her sisters aren't really doing what the emperor originally intended. It wouldn't be far from the truth since he didn't want to be considered a god and worshipped. Perhaps this would end up to a falling out and turning into chaos. The thousand sons were originally loyalist and tried to warn the emperor of horus's treachery. Who could say them going to chaos wasn't tzeentch's plan?
Personally I don't think sisters are incorruptible. I think it's propaganda and they don't release information of fallen sisters and sort of excommunicate them. They could pretend they never existed or that they fell in battle. It'd make just as much sense to me.
If I remember chaos enjoys tainting that which is most holy or turning that which is most devout. It's like a challenge to them.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: And you got offended when I said people in these threads are unpleasant. I'm not your buddy, guy.
I don't think that "bud" is really an unpleasant word. I certainly didn't mean it unplesantly, just conversationally. I've said it to others too, IIRC.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: You're grasping at straws regardless. A Space Marine is created, from geneseed, using a young male child. If he later switches to Chaos, and Chaos turns him into a girl, it doesn't change the fact that he had to be male to be a Space Marine in the first place. A Chaos Space Marine is just that. These aren't individually separable terms. It's not a guy who is a Marine, in Space, being Chaotic. He's not a Space Marine serving Chaos. He's a Space Marine which has been irretrievably corrupted, and become a Chaos Space Marine. If he's one which was created as a Chaos Space Marine using stolen geneseed, he's still not a Space Marine, because Chaos is the logic and reality defying essence of 40K. It gets to do what it wants to.
But your original point was that female Space Marines were "impossible". However, as previous posts laid out, a Chaos Marine is still a Space Marine. Therefore, female Marines are perfectly possible.
And again, a Marine needn't fall to Chaos to be twisted by it.
But they aren't Space Marines. They have an extra word. And that word defines what they are. Chaos Space Marines.
Yes, they might have once been Space Marines, but they can't just decide to not be Chaos one day. It's not a transferable state. One or the other. Never both, and there's no transition between them.
It's either a "Space marine", which follows one set of "rules" in 40K, or it's a "Chaos Space Marine" which follows an entirely different set of rules (much of which is predicated on not having to follow as many rules).
It's like an electric car. It's still a car. Probably has four wheels, and a steering wheel, some seats, and some kind of power plant which allows it to move its functional bits. But it doesn't get to run on petrol the next day because that's more convenient than plugging it in for a few hours.
A "little initiate Sister" is not yet a Sister of Battle. She's not yet taken her vows on Terra and is still "in training".
Everyone who becomes a member of the Adepta Sororitas is, basically, born into it. They select only those female candidates who exhibit the greatest zeal and most profound of faith from those girls raised from infancy within the Schola Progenium. These are girls who are indoctrinated into the Cult Imperial long before they are ever capable of having an opinion on anything.
Also, as has been posted a few times in the thread already, the Codices state, flat-out, "utterly incorruptible". Now, this might be propaganda, of course, but if you are willing to accept that as propaganda, then one must, logically, accept the same fact about the Grey Knights. And also accept that the Space Wolves are hypocrites in the extreme, as their Librarians would not be psykers but, instead, sorcerers.
Troike wrote:I don't think that "bud" is really an unpleasant word. I certainly didn't mean it unplesantly, just conversationally. I've said it to others too, IIRC.
Come on. Don't insult everyone's intelligence. I don't care if you insult me, because you're insignificant in my existence and have demonstrated no superiority to me which might be threatening to my standing in this discussion's hierarchy, so I'm not offended. But nobody here is dumb enough to believe you.
Though, just in case you haven't been out in real life before, calling somebody "bud" or "buddy" or "guy" or "friend" when they most obviously aren't your friend, bud, buddy, mate, guy, etc, is a known conversational term which is rude and condescending.
However, as previous posts laid out, a Chaos Marine is still a Space Marine.
Previous posts, just like yours was, were wrong. Repetition of incorrect ideas doesn't imply truth. You could get a whole thread of crazy people saying gravity is a myth, but you aren't going to suddenly be able to achieve orbit sitting on your couch.
Anyhow, I'm done. I only commented because of how rude and unnecessary that comment was, and all it got in return was more rudeness and unpleasantness, lol. At some point, you'd think I'd learn that threads about Sisters just have zero potential for intelligent, meaningful, productive discussion about the hobby in a manner that benefits the TS and all participants. One lapse of discipline. One second where I was coming here to update my project log and I thought "Maybe the Background Forum has something interesting today, and this five page thread isn't just a bunch of garbage and Dakka being Dakka."
Psienesis wrote: A "little initiate Sister" is not yet a Sister of Battle. She's not yet taken her vows on Terra and is still "in training".
Everyone who becomes a member of the Adepta Sororitas is, basically, born into it. They select only those female candidates who exhibit the greatest zeal and most profound of faith from those girls raised from infancy within the Schola Progenium. These are girls who are indoctrinated into the Cult Imperial long before they are ever capable of having an opinion on anything.
Also, as has been posted a few times in the thread already, the Codices state, flat-out, "utterly incorruptible". Now, this might be propaganda, of course, but if you are willing to accept that as propaganda, then one must, logically, accept the same fact about the Grey Knights. And also accept that the Space Wolves are hypocrites in the extreme, as their Librarians would not be psykers but, instead, sorcerers.
Actually I kind of do think all sets of 3 are likely propaganda.
Besides my point is how hard is it to corrupt a sister without her knowing. Like I said perhaps a chaos god makes her think her other sisters are truly the traitors. At the very least a chaos god or others could trick them into doing something terrible without their knowledge.
Somebody that's been around for a long time and is good at tricking others could most likely trick them into doing something for chaos. Even if they are close-minded in their beliefs they could always be fooled that what they are doing is actually for the cause they stand for when it really isn't. Either that or show them that what they hold most dear is really all a lie. Feeling betrayed sounds like something that could turn a sister and it is very chaos sounding to me and like warhammer in general.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: Though, just in case you haven't been out in real life before, calling somebody "bud" or "buddy" or "guy" or "friend" when they most obviously aren't your friend, bud, buddy, mate, guy, etc, is a known conversational term which is rude and condescending.
I already said that I didn't mean it in a rude way, it's just something that I say sometimes. Though I get the impression that you're not going to believe me, so whatever.
And again, I find it odd that you're accusing others of those things when one of the first things you said in this topic was that certain other posters were "unpleasant people". How do you justify throwing around accusations of rudeness after when you've said that?
But it's already been outlined how a Chaos Marine remains a superhuman Space Marine. Therefore, female CSMs disprove your original statement of female Marines being an impossibility.
Psienesis wrote:Also, as has been posted a few times in the thread already, the Codices state, flat-out, "utterly incorruptible". Now, this might be propaganda, of course, but if you are willing to accept that as propaganda, then one must, logically, accept the same fact about the Grey Knights. And also accept that the Space Wolves are hypocrites in the extreme, as their Librarians would not be psykers but, instead, sorcerers.
Okay, so you basically just did an excellent demolition job on your own point. Thank you?
That was actually directed towards flamingkillamajig, but does not actually support your inane idea that "Chaos Space Marines are not Space Marines" in the slightest. What it does, though, is represent the logical requirement of establishing continuity of thought across similar Codex sources fitting similar concepts. If you believe that Sisters can be corrupted, despite the Codex saying that Sisters are utterly incorruptible, one must then also take the position that the same holds true for Grey Knights and that, following the same lines, the Space Wolves practice sorcery, as their Rune Priests are said to practice "a form of ancient nature magic". All of which are things that are fairly well-established in the official publications as being untrue.
Your argument isn't an argument, it's simply contradictory statements, attempting to hide behind a smokescreen of legitimacy through absurdist positions and logical fallacy. You posit opinion as fact without evidence. Your statement "previous posts, just like your was, were wrong" is flat-out non-factual. We are not required to provide proof that Chaos Space Marines are Space Marines, because they are generally accepted to be, under a broad variety of titles, names and classifications. So far, you have presented zero evidence that this is not the case. You're arguing that up is down and left is right, without providing the merest suggestion of evidence to back your claim.
....and that's the last I'm going to say on the subject with regards to you. You're not worth the slight expenditure of my time or effort to write these posts.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:The problem is, I never arrive in these threads with such an attitude.
The problem is, you never seem to realise what you're posting.
Look at your very first contribution to this thread. It basically reads like "SoB threads are full of trolls". I just can't fathom how someone would believe that this won't provoke a kneejerk reaction like mine (Troike was much more polite, but with you I've long given up on that as you just keep coming back for more), especially given your history with such threads and how you've called SoB fans in the past.
And the same goes for the ridiculous tone that accompanies the "expert" references you occasionally spout as if that'd somehow make your opinion any more valid than anyone elses. Let me tell you, on the internet, claiming that you're a veteran soldier (with a professional marketing background) dating models generally evokes the opposite of what you seem to try to achieve by posting them, even if they were true (lol). Especially when you post them on a website like dakka that focuses on a nerdy tabletop wargame.
You really need to get off that persecution complex. When so many posters have a problem with you, maybe it's time to analyse your own behaviour rather than seeking the fault with others. You certainly seem to be emotionally invested not in the army, but in its players.
flamingkillamajig wrote:You could always have some writer of the new codex ruin the entire continuity of everything with a few simple keystrokes ;P.
Fortunately, 80% of the codices usually consists of copypasta.
But no, of course that's a valid concern - especially when you have new authors "taking over", who may not share the same interpretation as the one who wrote the last books. It can lead to differences in tone and/or detail similar to how they exist between the novels.
I actually think I prefer the codexes in some ways as written propaganda and as what's known from the reports of another. I dunno I just think it's a little hard to believe no sister has even gone rogue. Not being turned to chaos but rogue. Then again I may be wrong in this.
I just think the chaos gods love the twisting and turning and fooling of what's considered incorruptible. It's a challenge to them. Considering tzeentch's extremely convoluted plots and schemes it's entirely possible he could turn some sisters without them ever thinking they were turned or at the very least make them his pawn without their knowing. At least in that way it could make sense. Utterly incorruptible but still able to be a dupe in some bigger scheme.
Lynata wrote: But no, of course that's a valid concern - especially when you have new authors "taking over", who may not share the same interpretation as the one who wrote the last books. It can lead to differences in tone and/or detail similar to how they exist between the novels.
I'd say that we're allright on this front, though. Ward, and apparently Cruddace, seem to "get" the Sisters. Though, of course, it is possible that a big retcon could suddenly emerge next codex, it seems that we have some few prominent writers who have a good understanding of the Sisters.
flamingkillamajig wrote: I actually think I prefer the codexes in some ways as written propaganda and as what's known from the reports of another. I dunno I just think it's a little hard to believe no sister has even gone rogue. Not being turned to chaos but rogue. Then again I may be wrong in this.
I just think the chaos gods love the twisting and turning and fooling of what's considered incorruptible. It's a challenge to them. Considering tzeentch's extremely convoluted plots and schemes it's entirely possible he could turn some sisters without them ever thinking they were turned or at the very least make them his pawn without their knowing. At least in that way it could make sense. Utterly incorruptible but still able to be a dupe in some bigger scheme.
Well, here's the thing about the Sisters that you have to keep in mind when you mean for them to "go rogue": How would they do it?
They don't get paid. Individually, they own nothing. They possess nothing of value that would entice someone to go against the Ecclesiarchy and help them escape. They don't "hang out" with non-members of the Sororitas in most cases (members of Ordo Famulous being the exception). They aren't exposed to the "pop culture" of the Imperium and, when they are, they look down their noses at it, as they are raised, from birth, being taught that their way is the only proper way to live. How would they be able to get away from their convents and cathedrals and go anywhere? They stand out as members of the Sororitas, what Rogue Trader Captain, who is not himself deeply religious and devoting his efforts to the Ecclesiarchy, is going to take one with him/her somewhere else in the galaxy? That's inviting the risk of having you and your entire crew purged by bolter, melta and flamer. Even so, how would she repay the Rogue Trader? These are people of such wealth that just about anything else you could offer them is tawdry by comparison. Let's face it... the Sororitas don't know their way around a bedroom, the offer of sexual favors is not going to go over well, if such a thought even crosses their minds for an instant... and why would it? They've spent their entire lives in denial, their sex drives are nil.
Additionally. they live strictly regimented, strictly disciplined lives. Many of them practice self-flagellation as an act of devotion... those that don't are probably flagellated by another Sister anyway, as an act of religious service. They are the sort of group that eats the same bland, boring meal every meal of every day for their entire lives, because tasty food is a luxury and therefore a sin. The merest *thought* that they might rebel sends them scurrying to the Mistress of Repentia, their Canoness, or whatever other ranking Sister is available. To be honest, despite they wealth of art suggesting otherwise, I imagine that the Sisters are some pretty scarred-up people under that power armor. From the few glimpses we're given in a few sources, punishments in the Schola Progenium are *harsh*, and I imagine it does not get any easier in the Sororitas.
Lynata wrote:You really need to get off that persecution complex. When so many posters have a problem with you, maybe it's time to analyse your own behaviour rather than seeking the fault with others. You certainly seem to be emotionally invested not in the army, but in its players.
See, this is where you are only looking at this from your small microcosm, and not the bigger picture. I run into problems with you and other Sisters players because we have differences in opinions over the reason why they haven't sold well and you react unreasonably. But everywhere else, I'm one of the more popular posters. On Bolter & Chainsword, for example, I have a nearly 1:3 "Like" to post ratio. And when you realize their Like function has only been in effect for less than a year, a large part of which I was inactive in the hobby, you understand how ludicrous that percentage is. http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/user/64093-veteran-sergeant/ I have two exalted threads on this forum, and I've only started three total with the 3rd being a simple question. I've been interviewed for hobby site articles. People name their conversions after my work. I've contributed formal tutorials on how to replicate my models. Everyone but you likes me. I know a lot about the hobby, I'm helpful, and I have a ton of useful real-world knowledge that enhances everyone's experience. Is it a persecution complex for me to recognize the reality that one of the only places I ever have problems are in threads on Dakka (and Warseer) with ornery Sisters players who get rooted out of places with more stringent moderation? Nah. I am, however, flattered that you keep that obsessive record of my posts. I couldn't be bothered to search through my own history to find the other threads where people had given me credit for their conversions, lol.
So the question is, am I the problem? Doubt it. Do I occasionally have fun antagonizing you guys when you lose your composure and behave poorly? I am indeed guilty of that. But it's for everyone else's benefit and I've accepted the punishments, lol. I liken myself to Jesus in that regard.
As far as the nerd hobby thing goes, yeah, it is. I don't display my stuff. It sits in trays under the bed when I'm not working on them or in boxes in the garage. I have a small group of old, old friends who I game with, and I all but abandoned 40K when I was in the Marines because I already knew how to read, which was enough of a social stigma as it was. So yeah, you outed me. I'm a closet nerd. But that's the great thing about life. If you try hard enough, you can enjoy rolling dice, and other things. Really, you should be happy there are people like me who don't just automatically look down on people who play RPGs and tabletop games as nerds and losers.
Well cultists could take some prisoner and then they could corrupt them slowly. I suppose that a sister couldn't really go rogue unless she had help from others. Ugh I don't think I know enough about the sisters to really throw out the best ideas here. Perhaps she could threaten a rogue trader and reveal his hidden heretical cargo (like xeno tech and more) if he doesn't take her to where she wishes for a time. You know sort of blackmail him. Then again I don't know if that'd really happen for sisters either.
I could still imagine a sister being captured though and maybe turned to chaos.
For me a sister might turn rogue. It's more a matter of somebody saying 'never' for every single one in the history of ever. You mean not even one could've gone somewhere or gotten separated from the rest of her sisters or been 'missing in action' or something happened. My problem is never means that every single sister is absolutely perfectly pure and that just seems a bit ridiculous. They're still human and have human wants. It's just a little hard for me to believe orphan girls that were strictly trained a certain way never had one girl rebel even from dealings with groups other than the sisters.
flamingkillamajig wrote:I actually think I prefer the codexes in some ways as written propaganda and as what's known from the reports of another.
Me too, actually. Some of the things they say are just a bit "over the top", where I think that some detail has either been exaggerated or left out. Sometimes, there are differences between studio material, but I think this is where one could try to guesstimate the middle ground and read between the lines. The tone of a source, imho, often betrays how "serious" it can be taken, i.e. whether it is an analysis or a legend or perhaps an actual event which, however, was listed specifically because it was an exception rather than the norm.
We all have to navigate our own path through the readings, but I found that the above has served me well in seeing some more realism and consistency in 40k and thus making it a bit more immersive, rather than embracing the Epic (with a capital "e") legends that sometimes try to push their way to the front, and are all too often taken at face value.
flamingkillamajig wrote:It's more a matter of somebody saying 'never' for every single one in the history of ever.
Yeah, that's why I like Miriael. The one exception. Still preserves the army's theme due to her uniqueness (and even reinforces it, in a way, by presenting her as such an extreme oddity), but makes it feel a bit more "real". "Never" is a long time, after all. Matter of preferences, as with many things in the fluff.
Psienesis wrote:They've spent their entire lives in denial, their sex drives are nil.
Perhaps I wouldn't say their sex drives are non-existent (as those are a matter of biology, assuming that the Ecclesiarchy didn't chemically neuter it .. which might be possible as well) - but rather that they are coping with it by purging any strange feelings via corporeal mortification, punishing themselves for a lapse in their strength whenever simple distraction did not suffice anymore. Wasn't this how the monks tried to handle it back then?
Psienesis wrote:The merest *thought* that they might rebel sends them scurrying to the Mistress of Repentia, their Canoness, or whatever other ranking Sister is available. To be honest, despite they wealth of art suggesting otherwise, I imagine that the Sisters are some pretty scarred-up people under that power armor. From the few glimpses we're given in a few sources, punishments in the Schola Progenium are *harsh*, and I imagine it does not get any easier in the Sororitas.
So the question is, am I the problem? Doubt it. Do I occasionally have fun antagonizing you guys when you lose your composure and behave poorly? I am indeed guilty of that. But it's for everyone else's benefit and I've accepted the punishments, lol. I liken myself to Jesus in that regard.
As far as the nerd hobby thing goes, yeah, it is. I don't display my stuff. It sits in trays under the bed when I'm not working on them or in boxes in the garage. I have a small group of old, old friends who I game with, and I all but abandoned 40K when I was in the Marines because I already knew how to read, which was enough of a social stigma as it was. So yeah, you outed me. I'm a closet nerd. But that's the great thing about life. If you try hard enough, you can enjoy rolling dice, and other things. Really, you should be happy there are people like me who don't just automatically look down on people who play RPGs and tabletop games as nerds and losers.
So you liken yourself to a guy that supposedly died for others sins. You know I don't think anywhere in the bible it said jesus was a huge troll. If I remember he never fought back. He accepted his punishment and just let it be. Likening yourself to jesus is a pretty arrogant thing to do man and this is coming from a person that isn't even into religion.
In the first sentence you admit to being a troll.
It's also interesting you're an ashamed nerd. As if pretending not to be something you are is healthy.
------------
I have my issues but at least i'm willing to accept I've f*cked up hard at times. Sure people can decide whether or not to give in and be the better person by saying nothing but you still started. I'm getting a mod to stop this before it goes any farther.
Well unless you subscribe to the idea that as part of the process of becoming a Sister you pledge your soul to a Warp Power - The Emperor.
This then should protect you from the other Warp Powers taking your soul- thye can destory or corrupt your body but as long as you remain true - your soul is part of Him (of feeds him )
Its also part of the fluff that there are no Sisters that have fallen to Chaos- same as no Grey Knight has fallen Now you can take it or leave it as per your preference same as verything else...........
Hmm those are some mighty fine pics. I’m tempted to convert a chaos aligned SoB army for myself now, just so that I might behold the ensuing nerd rage of any SoB traditionalist that sees it. It will be glories .
The reality is, there's a precedence for everything in 40K because it's a universe that has been built around the idea that basically nothing is impossible other than female Space Marines and a reconciliation between players when it comes to the canon.
Personally I don't think sisters are incorruptible. I think it's propaganda and they don't release information of fallen sisters and sort of excommunicate them. They could pretend they never existed or that they fell in battle. It'd make just as much sense to me.
If I remember chaos enjoys tainting that which is most holy or turning that which is most devout. It's like a challenge to them.
Both Sisters of Battle and Grey Knights are depicted as completely incorruptible by GW. Many times, in many sources. Do you apply your reasoning to the Grey Knights, or are they totally incorruptible in your eyes?
Chaos Sisters, like Chaos Grey Knights, like female Space Marines, like Chaos Tau, have a big appeal to me. If they are properly converted they can be visually stunning. I will be ok with it, but ... it would be a fun army, not a fluffy one. Sisters and GK are incorruptible in the canon.
flamingkillamajig wrote: Well cultists could take some prisoner and then they could corrupt them slowly. I suppose that a sister couldn't really go rogue unless she had help from others. Ugh I don't think I know enough about the sisters to really throw out the best ideas here. Perhaps she could threaten a rogue trader and reveal his hidden heretical cargo (like xeno tech and more) if he doesn't take her to where she wishes for a time. You know sort of blackmail him. Then again I don't know if that'd really happen for sisters either.
I could still imagine a sister being captured though and maybe turned to chaos.
For me a sister might turn rogue. It's more a matter of somebody saying 'never' for every single one in the history of ever. You mean not even one could've gone somewhere or gotten separated from the rest of her sisters or been 'missing in action' or something happened. My problem is never means that every single sister is absolutely perfectly pure and that just seems a bit ridiculous. They're still human and have human wants. It's just a little hard for me to believe orphan girls that were strictly trained a certain way never had one girl rebel even from dealings with groups other than the sisters.
I am surprised at how many people discard faith. The Emperor himself protects the Sisters. If a krak missile hits a Sister in the face, there is a chance she will remain unscathed.
This is the best way (in my opinion) to understand why they are immune to corruption. They are already "corrupted" and not exactly human anymore. They are marked by something that is really close to a Chaos God. Tzeentch corrupting a Sister is like Tzeentch corrupting a Khorne Berserker, who is marked by Khorne. She is already taken. Some Sisters of Battle players have already expressed in this thread a different opinion though.
Also, if a Sister loses her faith, she is no longer a Sister. Just a female human soldier. Faith is what makes Sisters special.
Well I do know that space marine chaplains have turned. I don't know if there is a limit to how faithful you have to be in that case. I just took it this was a universe where once you were corrupted by chaos there was no turning back. Although I think necrons could nullify chaos back before they got ward'ed because they purged the living. I don't even know what happened after ward's codex. So yeah I just thought it was a typical universe where being good doesn't offer ever-lasting protection but once you fall it's permanent.
Anyway I'm no expert by a long shot. It would almost be interesting if a follower of a specific god tried changing his allegiance but i'm pretty sure once you pledge your soul to one it's permanent as they own you. So yeah you're basically their b*tch ;D. Would be interesting if a chaos god got his true followers to kill any that strayed to far from the path said god threw out for them though.
I actually said I accepted all 3 were forms of propaganda. This means the sisters and grey knights are corruptible and the space wolves are hypocrites. The way I thought of it was the only ones incorruptible were orcs, possibly tau and esp. the culexus assassins ('the blanks' or soulless people). I actually found 'the blanks' to be more interesting than a lot of the psykers. Infinitely rarer and could own an elder farseer just by being too close to her.
Yet most Space Marine chapters do not accept the Emperor as a God. Chaplains are not about religion, they are concerned with morale or traditions. One Chaplain of the Soul Drinkers orchestrated the fall of the entire chapter. And? They do not have faith in the Emperor.
And even if a chapter accepts the divinity of the Emperor... they would not be Grey Knights or Sisters of Battle. Both factions have a special link with the Emperor, and are described as immune to Chaos. The other factions are not "protected" by their god.
Likely because (most) Marines don't worship the Emperor as a god like the Sisters do, rather they venerate him as the greatest of men and their genetic forefather. I know, it's confusing at a glance. Marines have Chaplains and go around yelling about heretics and faith, yet they don't actually have faith as such.
The Black Templars and, according to BL, the Red Hunters are some exceptions to this, and actively worship Big E as a god.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: I run into problems with you and other Sisters players because we have differences in opinions over the reason why they haven't sold well and you react unreasonably.
I don't think that disagreeing with you and presenting counter-evidence is an unreasonable reaction. Again, that's very standard for an internet forum.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: with ornery Sisters players who get rooted out of places with more stringent moderation?
Uh, don't think that's true. I've never heard of SoB fans being "rooted out" of places. More likely. they gravitate to certain sites due to the bigger number of other SoB fans there. I, for one, decided to "settle down" here partly because there were lots of other SoB players and fans here. If there aren't many people around to discuss the SoB with, then of course a person is less likely to discuss them. Lots of SoB fans? More SoB talk.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: So the question is, am I the problem? Doubt it. Do I occasionally have fun antagonizing you guys when you lose your composure and behave poorly? I am indeed guilty of that.
So you're saying that you aren't "the problem", yet say that you intentionally try to rile up SoB fans? Also, you can hardly accuse others of rudeness when you outright admit that it is your intent to be rude towards them.
I kind of like the idea of an order of female cultists of Khorne as a martial order who, in order to advance to an officer rank, must kill a member of an Imperial military order (Space Marines are typical targets, though Soritas are preferred so they can corrupt the armor and wear it).
Neatly sidesteps the problem of corrupting the Sisters themselves and avoids the Slaanesh trap.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: Chaos corrupted […] Marines aren't Space Marines. They are Chaos Space Marines.
That's… well, that's sigworthy.
I see your point. It's like chaos ogryns, which are not ogryns, and chaos daemon, which are not daemon, and chaos dwarves, which are not dwarves, and chaos titans are not titans, and chaos land raider are not land raiders, and so on .
But then on, female space marines are not space marines either, so female “space marines” is not possible, but “female space marines” are totally possible !
Veteran Sergeant wrote: Chaos corrupted […] Marines aren't Space Marines. They are Chaos Space Marines.
That's… well, that's sigworthy.
I see your point. It's like chaos ogryns, which are not ogryns, and chaos daemon, which are not daemon, and chaos dwarves, which are not dwarves, and chaos titans are not titans, and chaos land raider are not land raiders, and so on .
But then on, female space marines are not space marines either, so female “space marines” is not possible, but “female space marines” are totally possible !
Obviously, you are not. We all wish you were. Be done, now !
Well, to play Devil's Advocate here I kinda agree with Veteran Sergeant on this issue. If a Chaos Space Marine can be transformed from male to female that doesn't exactly make 'him' a female 'Space Marine' does it, as such. In order to become a female Space Marine the Chaos Space Marine first had to be a male that became a Space Marine, then he had to turn or fall or whatever to Chaos and then through some bizarre method have his gender flipped or at least be physically given the attributes of a female.
What allows a 'Chaos' Space Marine to become female could never be true for a loyal Space Marine. Sure you could say that, even loyal, Slaanesh does have the power (if he/she really does have the power at all) in the right circumstances to flip his gender whether he wants to have that happen or not but that still requires Chaos trickery.
In order to have an actual, real female Space Marine then a girl would need to undergo the implantation process and survive, she would then be a female Space Marine. Saying that a male Space Marine could be made female through Chaos trickery doesn't really equal the same thing.
da001 wrote: Both Sisters of Battle and Grey Knights are depicted as completely incorruptible by GW. Many times, in many sources. Do you apply your reasoning to the Grey Knights, or are they totally incorruptible in your eyes?
My issue with this and with the whole incorruptability of Sisters of Battle is that the process by which a Grey Knight achieves his incorruptability to Chaos is entirely different. Firstly he has to be a psyker so isn't even a normal human like a Sister is and then, via the special gene-seed Grey Knights are made with is made incorruptable. In fluff terms this is like the sensei, like the Emperor the Warp was able to flow through them in its natural, pure non-Chaos corrupted form, Chaos could not corrupt them because it couldn't get a grip on their souls in any way, it was simply not possible because of what the sensei were as living creatures and the Emperor's own offspring. Likewise, the Grey Knights purportedly have gene-seed made from the Emperor's own flesh and share the same properties as the Emperor in that regard; it is interesting to not that in the Realm of Chaos background even the Emperor was not fully immune to Chaos and was slowly being driven insane and corrupted by it but then the Star Child was somewhat seperate from the Emperor and so, even though 'the Emperor' ie, the dead shell on the Golden Throne could be corrupted over time, the Star Child was still safe(ish).
Sisters of Battle however do not have immunity in this way. They are regular humans and no amount of indoctrination or brain-washing alters that - you could paint a sheet of steel to protect it from corrosion but that would not make it stainless steel it would just be painted steel and the difference between what makes a Sister 'incorruptable' and Grey Knight 'incorruptable' is the same difference between steel and stainless steel in my rather poor analogy there.
Brain-washing, indoctrination, whatever you want to call it can be broken, these are not unalterable states, nothing has happened to physically alter the make-up of the person in receipt of these techniques.
Spoiler:
Terms such as coercive persuasion, mind manipulation, thought reform are many times used as equivalents to the term brain washing. One of the major misunderstandings about all of the terms is the idea that the actual brain is being stimulated or changed or probed in hopes of erasing memories, mannerisms, and patterns of thought and then the victims being re-taught a set of new things in hopes of forgetting and taking the newly acquired knowledge as one which is authentically their own.
In actuality, for the most part, what is occurring in all of the cases stated above is the application of intense physical and psychological torture which creates stimuli that inevitably changes not only the behavior of the victims undergoing it, but also the values they possess as well as how they are able to process information.
To accomplish the goals of the exercise, many techniques came into play, including dehumanizing of individuals by keeping them in filth, sleep deprivation, psychological harassment, inculcation of guilt, group social pressure, etc. In the case of the Korean War these techniques had multiple goals that went beyond just controlling of subjects in prison camps of North Korea. They aimed to produce what was known as "confessions" by the victims themselves so as to convince the accused that they had taken part in illegal/immoral activities. The techniques also aimed to make the war prisoners feel guilty of these "crimes" against the state, and as a result, make them long for of a fundamental change in viewpoint toward the institutions of the new communist society/ and, finally, to actually accomplish these desired changes in the recipients of the brainwashing/thought-reform.
There were two studies done on the Korean War victims conducted by Robert Lifton, an American psychiatrist and author, and Edgar Schein a professor at MIT. These studies concluded that brainwashing, or mind control, had a temporary effect when used on prisoners of war. Lifton and Schein found that the Chinese did not engage in any systematic re-education of prisoners, but generally used their techniques of coercive persuasion to disrupt the ability of the prisoners to organize so as to maintain their morale and to try to escape.
The Chinese soldiers did get some of the prisoners to make anti-American statements by placing them under continuously cruel environments of deprivation and then by offering them more comfortable situations. Despite these physical and psychological stresses Lifton and Schein noticed that these methods of force did not change most people's attitudes. Therefore Communists ideologies were not adopted. It was more a survival mechanism. Many of them acted like they believed in the Communist ideologies just so that they could survive and not be subjected to more physical and psychological punishment. There were, however, a few prisoners who after the war showcased an affinity for Communist ideologies, but whether it was due to successful indoctrination by the Chinese soldiers or because their personalities and beliefs pre-war coincided with Communism is debatable.
That's some information on brain-washing and I would say the techniques used are probably very similar to those used on Sisters as part of their own indoctrination. However the process is not a one-way street and it does not make the individual 'immune' to further indoctrination and in 40K terms, it would not stop the corrupting effects of the Warp.
Does the Emperor though act as Chaos God for whom their mortal soldiers are pledged to their service and are therefore 'immune' to the effects of the other Chaos Powers? Well that is debatable. Does the Empeor protect Sisters in that way. It's possible and I do not rule it out, I am just exploring these possibilities and really it comes down to a preference on if the Sisters Acts of Faith are manifestations on their own dogged determination and persistence or literal manifestations of the Emperor's Will.
It would appear to be that way for Saint Celestine but for every Sister in every situation? Hmm, I kinda doubt that really, certainly I would not extend it to Sisters particularly when the same can be said of any faithful Imperial servant who believes the Emperor to have personally intervened when some 'miracle' has happened that spared them from the enemey et cetera.
The thing for me is, if Sisters are truly, fully immune through their faith what then is the purpose of the Grey Knights having a very specific and unique gene-seed if they could achieve the same results via the relatively simplistic means utilised on the Sisters?
I think that the Grey Knights and to help with that point, using the old background for the Emperor and Sensei, are immune to Chaos because they are not ordinary humans, it is arguable that they are not human at all in some respects.
Sisters are human however and they are protected by a mentality. The fact it may have been used on them from birth doesn't really alter things overmuch, it doesn't stop them being human it just makes it harder for them to be corrupted which is really the point as far as 'making' Sisters is concerned in in-universe terms. It may well be that the requisite amount of corruption required to break that conditioning would kill a Sister but if she lived? Afterall, it could well be the very endurance for which Sisters are well known could ultimately work against them or at least there is a possibility I would say.
Gogsnik wrote:What allows a 'Chaos' Space Marine to become female could never be true for a loyal Space Marine. Sure you could say that, even loyal, Slaanesh does have the power (if he/she really does have the power at all) in the right circumstances to flip his gender whether he wants to have that happen or not but that still requires Chaos trickery.
I do not think this is what was being debated. VS made an argument that a Chaos Space Marine would somehow stop being a Space Marine. Like, as if a Chaos Cultist would somehow stop being a human with the Chaos Cultist template slapped on top. Or as if an Eldar Renegade would somehow stop being an Eldar with the Renegade template slapped on top.
There is, however, no "switch" that just turns people into something completely different from one moment to the next.
Take those Space Wolves who joined the Red Corsairs because they preferred surrendering instead of dying, for example (source: 4E C:CSM) - as Red Corsairs they're now Chaos Marines, even though they've merely switched their employer. Now, do we define "Space Marine" as only counting for those Astartes who are in service to the Imperium of Man, or do we see it as a biological distinction and a name for their very existence rather than just their job? An argument may be made for the former, but I assume the majority of posters here would say the latter, and "+Chaos" merely as a prefix defining a specific group of them.
Or, in short, what are Chaos Space Marines? They are Space Marines in service of Chaos.
Gogsnik wrote:My issue with this and with the whole incorruptability of Sisters of Battle is that the process by which a Grey Knight achieves his incorruptability to Chaos is entirely different. Firstly he has to be a psyker so isn't even a normal human like a Sister is and then, via the special gene-seed Grey Knights are made with is made incorruptable.
The same gene-seed that was used to create the Primarchs, of whom half fell to Chaos? Consider, too, that psykers in particular are at risk from corruption.
Gogsnik wrote:Sisters of Battle however do not have immunity in this way. They are regular humans and no amount of indoctrination or brain-washing alters that [...] you could paint a sheet of steel to protect it from corrosion but that would not make it stainless steel it would just be painted steel and the difference between what makes a Sister 'incorruptable' and Grey Knight 'incorruptable' is the same difference between steel and stainless steel in my rather poor analogy there
Ultimately, such details are determined by those who write the material or who read it. According to Games Workshop, both the Grey Knights as well as the Sisters of Battle have been called "incorruptible". The rest is up to personal preferences and interpretation, and what one makes of the material. Perhaps both are true, perhaps both are propaganda, perhaps this is merely an opinion and the opposite has not happened yet. That's just how fluff in 40k works.
I will add, though, that the "painting sheets" example is a funny analogy to make, considering that it was the Grey Knights who needed to augment their apparently quite fallible resilience by painting their weapons and armour with blood of Sisters in order to retain their incorruptibility.
Gogsnik wrote:That's some information on brain-washing and I would say the techniques used are probably very similar to those used on Sisters as part of their own indoctrination.
Not quite. Starting with the rather important detail that the Sisters never knew anything else. They do not have to be "re-programmed" because they were born into their existence, a blank slate ready to soak up anything they are being fed. In fact, your quote works in the Sisters' favour in that indoctrination may be unsuccessful at changing a viewpoint already adopted. Which means Sisters would be resilient against their existing beliefs being undermined.
In fact, since you've already mentioned North Korean ReEd camps, there is this guy who was born in one of those camps, and he ratted out his own parents, because at the time he believed it was the right thing to do, in spite of how badly he was treated there. If this works in such an environment, consider how intense and successful the brainwashing must be in a Sororitas convent where people actually live in a sort of family union, reinforcing each other's beliefs!
"What curiously small creatures you are to present such a thorn in my side." The words roared and rumbled through the air, thick with dark amusement. "What little bundles of ignorant flesh. I am Parmenides, called the Vile, chosen Prince of Nurgle. I am the virus which the Plague God sends to infect your mortal worlds. I am the festering in your wounded empire. Do creatures as insignificant as yourselves have names too, I wonder?" "Sergeant Castus of the Ultramarines, Second Company", the Marine replied in a defiant voice, as if he were trying to impress the daemon prince. The horrific gaze turned to Aescarion, questioning. "I would not give you my name, though it cost my soul", the Battle Sister snarled, and she gripped her axe tighter. "Such a shame", Parmenides replied. "But the girl I can understand. Her mind is most infertile. What has she ever questioned? They teach her and she believes." - Daemonblood, by Ben Counter
Gogsnik wrote:The thing for me is, if Sisters are truly, fully immune through their faith what then is the purpose of the Grey Knights having a very specific and unique gene-seed if they could achieve the same results via the relatively simplistic means utilised on the Sisters?
Because to do so you would have to raise and indoctrinate your Grey Knights from birth, which is a hell of a lot more difficult than picking them up whenever you meet one, when you consider that they also need to be psykers and compatible with Astartes gene-seed. And perhaps they would even require a zealous belief in the existence of "something greater and omnipotent" like the Sisters with their religion, which could interfere with Inquisitorial orders.
Their resilience seems to work well enough most of the time, and when it doesn't they seem to possess "techniques" that make up for the deficiency, no?
Gogsnik wrote: Well, to play Devil's Advocate here I kinda agree with Veteran Sergeant on this issue. If a Chaos Space Marine can be transformed from male to female that doesn't exactly make 'him' a female 'Space Marine' does it, as such. In order to become a female Space Marine the Chaos Space Marine first had to be a male that became a Space Marine, then he had to turn or fall or whatever to Chaos and then through some bizarre method have his gender flipped or at least be physically given the attributes of a female.
A chaos space marine turned into a female chaos space marine, is not a female chaos space marine, it’s an abomination.
The mystery has now been solved guys, so can we focus on the OP's original question now, please?
I don't see why a Sister wouldn't turn to Chaos, sure it would be highly unlikely as they are religious zealots, but I don't think they are incorruptible like the "super-duper Matt Ward Grey Knight delux™".
As has been laid out previously, their extreme zeal is a major factor in this. Their codexes have consistently kept with the "incorruptible" lines and talk about what controlled, rigorous indoctrination they undergo. Furthermore, they are the only army to get faith as a central mechanic, and their recent acquirement of Adamantium Will very nicely demonstrates their strong willpowers and resistance to warp trickery. So yeah, there's actually plenty of very good reasons why a Sister would not turn to Chaos.
As has been laid out previously, their extreme zeal is a major factor in this. Their codexes have consistently kept with the "incorruptible" lines and talk about what controlled, rigorous indoctrination they undergo. Furthermore, they are the only army to get faith as a central mechanic, and their recent acquirement of Adamantium Will very nicely demonstrates their strong willpowers and resistance to warp trickery. So yeah, there's actually plenty of very good reasons why a Sister would not turn to Chaos.
But they are not incorruptible like the uber mehreens aka Grey Knights with magical armour that somehow repels all forms of corruption. Although it is extremely unlikely that one Sisters of Battle would fall let alone a squad.
I believe so, there is also Miriael Sabathiel from the "Tales from the Dark Millenium", who is often refered to as the only "known" member to fall, possibly (or not) implying others have fallen to chaos but aren't currently known. I think these have been mentioned a few pages back.
Generally this sort of thread seems to come down to canon vs fluff type arguments. Mostly it seems people will call something canon if its fluff they personally agree with.
MetalOxide wrote:But they are not incorruptible like the uber mehreens aka Grey Knights with magical armour that somehow repels all forms of corruption. Although it is extremely unlikely that one Sisters of Battle would fall let alone a squad.
Although, as I have previously mentioned, I like the idea of Miriael as the exception, it should be pointed out that both Grey Knights as well as Sisters of Battle have been called incorruptible in their Codex fluff.
Da krimson barun wrote:Doesn't it mention sisters being corrupted in bloodtide/bloodpaint?
Yes, some - and the same source mentions that GKs need the remaining Sisters' blood to protect themselves against corruption. What would that imply? Are both factions fallible? In fact, are Sisters more resilient against corruption, seeing that they did not need any blood rituals to protect themselves?
It may also be a matter of definition - some may regard corruption as corruption of the mind and soul, as in "turning" the victim and making him or her a traitor, yet corruption can also be (meta-)physical by simply turning the victim sick (see Nurgle's "gifts" - they do not immediately make you a servant of Chaos).
Either way, the Bloodtide is probably a good example for "never say never" - this goes for both SoB as well as GKs.
Lysit wrote:Mostly it seems people will call something canon if its fluff they personally agree with.
That really sums it up. The various sources are contradictory. You've got half a dozen codices and WD articles calling them incorruptible, yet a fluff piece in the GK 'dex has some being tainted. Regardless of whether this was intentional or the GK author just didn't read a lot about SoB, this could only be resolved by saying either one source is just Ministorum propaganda and common belief, or the other is a flawed report (perhaps from the GKs investigating dead bodies, where the "incorruptability" effect fueled by faith would no longer be in effect). And it gets worse as soon as you delve into non-studio material such as the various novels or games, which regularly go against certain details in GW's own material. For example, Miriael from the collectible card game is said to be the one big exception, yet in the Daemonifuge comic an entire convent turns against itself.
That's just how 40k fluff works. There is no singular truth, so we'll either have to limit ourselves to headcanon or find some sort of middle ground as a common basis for discussion. Simply recognising that everyone's opinion is, technically, equally valid and that it depends a lot on which book you're reading is a good start, though.
Lysit wrote: I believe so, there is also Miriael Sabathiel from the "Tales from the Dark Millenium", who is often refered to as the only "known" member to fall
Though she's never been referenced in any studio fluff, to my knowledge.
Lynata wrote: or the GK author just didn't read a lot about SoB
The thing with that ides is that the "incorruptible" line and a reference to the Bloodtide both appear in the new codex, which is weird. Though it may have just been an oversight.
Troike wrote:The thing with that ides is that the "incorruptible" line and a reference to the Bloodtide both appear in the new codex, which is weird. Though it may have just been an oversight.
Although the new Codex does not mention any Sisters getting corrupted, so there's no conflict in the same book.
Psienesis wrote:They've spent their entire lives in denial, their sex drives are nil.
Perhaps I wouldn't say their sex drives are non-existent (as those are a matter of biology, assuming that the Ecclesiarchy didn't chemically neuter it .. which might be possible as well) - but rather that they are coping with it by purging any strange feelings via corporeal mortification, punishing themselves for a lapse in their strength whenever simple distraction did not suffice anymore. Wasn't this how the monks tried to handle it back then?
As the saying goes, if you ain't using it, you don't miss it. Though this line is intended for male soldiers in boot camp, the philosophy holds true. If one is sufficiently "distracted", rather, has their attention focused on other things long enough, one's libido drops. Add to this fact that the Sisters have been in the Schola program their entire lives, and now the Sisterhood, the very concept of sex is probably little more than a class in human biology... for most of them (excepting, perhaps, the Orders Famulous), the concepts of romance and eroticism are probably extremely foreign. They also live in an extremely sheltered society, where they are not subject to objectification or sexualization, of themselves or of others.
Of course, your example is an option as well, but I don't think it would, necessarily, be an ongoing requirement. Of course, this is going to boil down to a level of individual Sisters, but even in the real world, there are people who are, essentially, asexual. They are simply not particularly interested in sex, and can be said to have a zero libido, even the ones who may be in sexually-active relationships. Sex is simply something they do, usually for their partners, but not something they go specifically chasing. Over a period of time of abstinence, though, just about anyone's sex drive goes down, especially if provided something else to focus the attention on.
The actual medieval monks, though, were not raised in a Schola system and, for the most part, lived amongst/near regular populations of people, so would be exposed to a wider variety of human natures. Many, too, came to the cloth much later in life than the Sisters do. These were people who had, potentially, already experienced sex and so had a frame of reference and knew what they were missing. The Sisters, generally speaking, have no such frame of reference.
As a related point, in the Dark Heresy novels, a female character, raised in a redemptionist group and then an assassin temple, shows very little knowledge of sex - I would assume that for a Sister, raised from a young age, the same would be true - I mean, would they even bother giving sisters sex ed lessons?
I wouldn't have thought they'd think it relevant - at least, apart from the sisters Hospitaller.
Just a thought.
Well, those who will be Sisters are still in the Schola around the age where they would have sex-ed classes, so I'm sure it's covered, though probably like a sex-ed class of the real world, it's more about biology than actual interpersonal relationships or the intricacies of such things.
Lynata wrote: Although the new Codex does not mention any Sisters getting corrupted, so there's no conflict in the same book.
Though it still mentions the Bloodtide, which I'm assuming still went down the same way.
Y'know, I'm just a little tempted to write to Ward (who I'm assuming wrote both pieces of fluff, or at least oversaw them) and ask for clarification on the matter, but that'd probably be futile. Most likely, the answer, if any, would be a non-answer.
Psienesis wrote:Well, those who will be Sisters are still in the Schola around the age where they would have sex-ed classes
Sex-ed at age 12? Sounds a bit young - of course, who knows what the Imperium thinks about "age of consent", or if they would even draw a connection between a lesson about procreation and romantic relationships. It could just be a short, basic lesson on human biology. Though, it might be just as plausible if they do not touch the subject at all. After all, why would they need this, as wards of the state? Every single one of them will be expected to become a cog in the machine - not raise a family. That's for normal people.
Troike wrote:Though it still mentions the Bloodtide, which I'm assuming still went down the same way.
Well, just because events are mentioned doesn't mean they still take place the same way. Take the "disappearance" of Ollanius Pius from the fluff about the Emperor's battle with Horus, for example, because the fight was moved from the palace to Horus' flagship. Or the subtle change about Saint Basilius in the Abyssal Crusade fluff from the 6E rulebook's timeline to the 6E Codex. In one he's already dead, in the other he gets executed.
Perhaps the Bloodtide reference in the new SoB 'dex is just what the Sisterhood knows of the incident, or perhaps the description in the GK 'dex is merely a flawed personal report, or perhaps neither of them are true, or perhaps this was a retcon. Anything is possible. It's a bit frustrating, but this is how the fluff works.
Troike wrote:Y'know, I'm just a little tempted to write to Ward (who I'm assuming wrote both pieces of fluff, or at least oversaw them) and ask for clarification on the matter, but that'd probably be futile. Most likely, the answer, if any, would be a non-answer.
Hmm, might still be worth a try, if you have his address. Maybe he's feeling generous and at least gives us a similar non-answer as Gav and Andy did?
At 12? Perfect age... here in the US at least, most kids are entering, or have already entered, puberty at that stage. That's roughly a 7th to 8th grade (middle or junior high school, depending on school district) age level, which is when we start having such classes.
Just took out my grey knights omnibus and I found this on page 239.
'Sisters, ready! Lachryma and the Knights will lead. Steel your souls, for the Enemy will try to take you first.' Ludmilla turned to Alaric. 'I know the Grey Knights have never had a brother lose their mind to Chaos. But the Adepta Sororitas have lost Sisters to the Enemy before. It is rare, and no one will admit to it, but...'
'It is bad enough that Ghargatuloth has used you,' said Alaric. 'I would not let any of you live on with your minds violated.'
OP just go for it.
This is how I see yes some sisters may have fallen its REALLY hard and its rare to make them fall considering their life style and if one did fall most likely records of them are expunged and its kept as a hidden secret and since they are fallen they are not considered a part of the adepta soroitas. This is my view on it.
Lynata wrote: The same gene-seed that was used to create the Primarchs, of whom half fell to Chaos? Consider, too, that psykers in particular are at risk from corruption.
Well it could just be my slant on it (more than likely) but I've always considered that the gene-seed of the Grey Knights is quite different to whatever techniques were used to create the Primarchs, afterall, the Emperor didn't even need gene-seed until the Primarchs were spirited away and so the process to make a Primarch is unique to itself. However the gene-seed were then made from Primarch material and this technique was then used on the Emperor to create gene-seed for the Grey Knights. So again, a different process with different results. Then of course there is the time the Primarchs spent unshielded in the Warp which Grey Knights don't experience and the lack of any notion of Chaos meaning the Primarchs were vulnerable to it through their ignorance which does not apply to Grey Knights and maybe even that the Emperor wanted the Heresy to happen(!). Obviously Emperor -> Primarch -> Astartes results in the possibility of Chaos corruption but Emperor -> Grey Knight does not.
Because to do so you would have to raise and indoctrinate your Grey Knights from birth, which is a hell of a lot more difficult than picking them up whenever you meet one, when you consider that they also need to be psykers and compatible with Astartes gene-seed. And perhaps they would even require a zealous belief in the existence of "something greater and omnipotent" like the Sisters with their religion, which could interfere with Inquisitorial orders.
Their resilience seems to work well enough most of the time, and when it doesn't they seem to possess "techniques" that make up for the deficiency, no?
My point was that the if a regular human through relatively mundane techniques can be made immune to Chaos the whole Grey Knights Chapter is really redundant. As you point out, the requisites for inclusion in the Grey Knights mean that only a tiny minority are worthy. Battle Sisters on the other hand, as products of the Schola Progenium, merely entered onto their life path because they are the orphans of Imperial servants. Sure enough they do go through a stringent selection process but none-the-less the requirments are vastly different and in the Battle Sisters case much more feasible. In that case, dispense with omni-Astartes and go for brainwashed humans instead.
Since that wasn't done I would argue that whilst that process does make Sisters incredibly resilient to Chaos corruption, (speciffically, spiritual/moral corruption as opposed to physical corruption) it is not a perfect process. Like I said about the sensei (old fluff I know but it emphasises the physical alteration a Grey Knight undergoes) they were immune to Chaos because of their very essence as living beings, they had a teflon coating for Chaos which simply slipped right off them and I think the same happens to Grey Knights becuase of how they are made. Sisters though have immense resistance to Chaos.
I mean, look at that Korean death camp survivor. Certainly as a child he made a decision born out of his brain-washing. As an adult, no longer subject to that environment that indoctrination no-longer holds sway.
If I can go back to my painted metal idea again... If, through the process that creates them a Grey Knight is like stainless steel then, you could have them exposed to Chaos all the time but nothing would happen just like stainless would not rust of left outside for years on end. Steel however would rust of left outside if it is not protected with a coating. Now, if the coating is being constantly reapplied then the steel is corrosion free but if the coating is not reapplied then eventually it wears off and corrosion sets in. In a Sister's case, her secluded religious lifestyle is in effect, giving her a protective coating of faith which is constantly reapplied but if for any reason she were removed from that environment her faith coating would begin to ware away, she is not intrinsically protected even if brainwashed from birth (same kinda idea is seen in the film Soldier - taken at birth, indoctrinated, trained and so totally incapable of normal human thought until he ends up on his own and without that environment the training, the indoctrination begin to wear off and the simple matter of survival introduces scenarios that further make the soldier more human and so not a perfect, robotic warrior slave anymore). As we know Stainless can be corroded in the right circumstances, especially if ordinary steel fragments get into it and as the corrode, the corrosion can spread to the stainless it would appear a not dissimilar thing can happen to the Grey Knights which is why they needed to paint themselves in blood just to be on the safe side!
You still have your two types of Chaos corruption thought, a moral/spirtual one that sees someone 'fall' to Chaos and then a more simple physical corruption caused by exposure to the Warp and the raw stuff of Chaos especially enhanced with the correct rites. Obviosuly the former type of corruption is the least likely to happen to a Sister although, simply because they are human at the end of the day I just can't think that, given the perfect circumstances they could 'fall'.
I only argue these points to show a possibility and not because I hold to it. Obviously both versions, corruptable Sisters and incorruptable Sisters both appeal to me greatly but they are exclusive ideas so at the end of the day you have to pick which version of the 40K universe appeals more in a given scenario explained by either one of them being propaganda and falsehoods.
Well for me I find it hard to hold back natural urges. The sisters unlike space marines are still human and even the space marines retain a bit of their humanity. Even if there's something done to hold back these feelings like having certain parts removed they still feel wants and needs for other things. In my opinion these girls are emotionally stunted just like marines. Depending on when they were raised it also might be different if they left a life from previous. For me who is the mother and father figure for sisters? Would it be the cannoness or a priest?
For me a lot of this is hard to believe. You can tell a lot of people something is crap and maybe you can convince them it's true but if they find out it's a lie by experiencing it themselves (as the sisters still experience the outside world by fighting in it) then they start to doubt things. This doubt could turn into what they might consider heresy. Perhaps they are so blind to things even when confronted with the truth they believe but that would mean even if they saw one of their leaders do something wrong they'd probably follow like little sheep to it. Maybe in the end whatever their leader says is the truth to them and in this sense they hold more loyalty to their leader than the original words said by them. It's kind of like 'animal farm'. "Four legs good, 2 legs better!" or "Everybody is equal but some are more equal than others."
Then there's the issue that some people that hold a rigid lifestyle that are exposed to other things suddenly go in the complete opposite direction. In fact in my eyes when given temptation or forced it sisters would fall over like a wet paper house.
I mean the sisters are still effected and effect the outside world. Maybe they use butterflies for target practice but I find it hard to believe there isn't some flaw somewhere in all their teachings. It wouldn't be a dystopian universe if everything said or done was absolutely perfect and there was no trouble of any kind. For sisters to stay absolutely pure they'd have to be monitored all the time and to never even once experience the outside world including battle-zones with chaos and all sorts of other things. If a sister has to kill a young girl's parents in front of her due to possible heresy chances are that might deeply affect her on an emotional level as she can relate to the pain. Perhaps she'd think it was the parents fault and blame them but still it might hurt her to think of what she'd just done.
For me I just see seeds of doubt within the sisters and I see a possible chance of falling to chaos. Maybe I just see this as a universe where once you fall you can never come back sort of thing but being devout doesn't make you incorruptible. I just see it as some sort of written BS quotes that the order who wrote them says to sort of prevent others from thinking it's possible. For me I wonder if some thoughts of suicide and shootings in the real world happen in part because people are aware that others have done so. In a sense by not knowing they feel the chance a sister would start something heretical is lessened. Also the brainwashed sisters think themselves that it would never happen and they could never succeed in their heresy because to their knowledge and what they were told it's never happened or at least never gone anywhere.
I think we are perhaps understimating what true fanatics will do - they won't care about the child or the parents - they are a heretic - full stop, if anything they will be grateful that they had a chance to end the parents pain in serving false gods and release the child from potential bondage to the same. People truely believing in stuff is a very scary - epesicially if your God actually intervenes on occasion and proves his existance - its not a possible god, but rather it is a reality.
Also when we talk about natural urges etc - we need to remember that the Astartes, in fact especially the Astartes often have huge Egos, they may not have sexual urges but their emotions - pride, anger etc can just as easily start them on the path to corruption. Thats why so many of them fall..... They have Brotherhood and Duty as a crutch but if anything causes them to question either then again - path of damnation beckons. The Grey Knights are not emotionless.........hence they retain this potential weakness.
The Sisters have true faith - and if in addiiton their souls are already pledged to the Emperor as a functioning Warp Power that pretty much safeguards them against spiritual corruption.
Neither G Knights or Sisters are immune to physical corruption of their bodies - but then IMO nothing, save maybe the C'Tan is..........and thats what the claim is - you can't touch their souls no matter what you do to their bodies........
If the Grey Knights were blanks rather than Psykers I think the teflon annology would work - but I think the current fluff sugests thats the Exorcist Chapter. Grey Kinghts have to carry out lots of rituals etc to make sure they are (mostly) immune.
If Space Marines can fall to Chaos then I don't know why it is so hard to believe that SoB could fall to Chaos as well. Just because they go through a lot of indoctrination does not mean that the Chaos Gods are not still there trying to tempt them. No matter how devoted you are to a deity, there will always be temptations that you have to fight against.
MetalOxide wrote: If Space Marines can fall to Chaos then I don't know why it is so hard to believe that SoB could fall to Chaos as well. Just because they go through a lot of indoctrination does not mean that the Chaos Gods are not still there trying to tempt them. No matter how devoted you are to a deity, there will always be temptations that you have to fight against.
Unless your soul is pledged to another Power - try tempting a Follower of Khorne with sex it won't be fun for you
Mr Morden wrote: I think we are perhaps understimating what true fanatics will do - they won't care about the child or the parents - they are a heretic - full stop, if anything they will be grateful that they had a chance to end the parents pain in serving false gods and release the child from potential bondage to the same. People truely believing in stuff is a very scary - epesicially if your God actually intervenes on occasion and proves his existance - its not a possible god, but rather it is a reality.
I think that Morden makes a good point. I do think that it's hard for some of us, here living our lives in the 21st century, to really understand the extremity of the Sisters. These aren't ordinary people like you or I, far from it. These people have been heavily indoctrinated from early childhood, and have mostly only ever lived in isolated places which constantly reinforce this heavy indoctrination. Any urges which get in the way of this indoctrination would have been stamped out quite firmly. And if they were to ever surface, the Sister in question would be, most likely, basically tortured until she conformed again.
Gogsnik wrote: Well it could just be my slant on it (more than likely) but I've always considered that the gene-seed of the Grey Knights is quite different to whatever techniques were used to create the Primarchs
Whilst their geneseed may offer them some sort of protection, their use of wards (ha!) and rituals do play a big part in their immunity.
MetalOxide wrote: If Space Marines can fall to Chaos then I don't know why it is so hard to believe that SoB could fall to Chaos as well.
Well, just look at the number of Chaos Space Marines in the studio canon.
Okay, now go look at the number of Chaos Sisters in the studio canon. Notice a difference?
A Space Marine falling to Chaos isn't some lofty, worst-case thing, considering how very many of them have fallen.
Nothing on those women indicate they were once Sisters. No fleur de lis tattoos, no Ecclesiarchal =I=s, none of the typical trappings of a Sister.
What they look like, to me, are women from a warrior-culture planet who were really, really good at it, who found something with the promise to make them even better.
Gogsnik wrote:Then of course there is the time the Primarchs spent unshielded in the Warp which Grey Knights don't experience and the lack of any notion of Chaos meaning the Primarchs were vulnerable to it through their ignorance which does not apply to Grey Knights
Every Grey Knight spends his childhood as a psyker, and those are not shielded from the Warp until they're taught how to do this. This is what makes psykers so dangerous, after all - they're a gateway for Chaos.
Also, I wouldn't say that the Primarchs were vulnerable to the Warp in their capsule-shielded foetal form, as personally I would expect mental corruption to actually require a functioning, conscient mind, and that more than not even half the Primarchs should have shown signs of taint. Even Horus didn't turn because lolchaos but because he simply had very human weaknesses.
This depends a lot on how you interpret the various versions of Primarch fluff, though.
Gogsnik wrote:I mean, look at that Korean death camp survivor. Certainly as a child he made a decision born out of his brain-washing. As an adult, no longer subject to that environment that indoctrination no-longer holds sway.
I'd say this is the result of that environment not being "perfect indoctrination". In every society, you need the stick and the carrot. Notice how he expected to be rewarded for ratting out his parents, for example? And how this then did not happen, but the opposite, because corrupt guards wanted that reward for themselves, because everyone there is poor and suffers from malnutrition?
No such thing with the Sisterhood.
What I consider remarkable, and which I think you are ignoring, is that up to the mistreatment by the guards, this inmate genuinely believed in doing the right thing. Up to that point, the indoctrination worked perfectly.
Gogsnik wrote:In that case, dispense with omni-Astartes and go for brainwashed humans instead.
But then you wouldn't have super-strength, super-toughness and psychic powers. Regardless of the Sisters' martial abilities, surely those are an advantage when fighting a daemonic incursion.
I mean, that's like argueing replacing all Space Marines with Cadian Kasrkin. It'd work on some level, but ultimately you'd notice that whenever you want to deploy the heaviest concentration of resilience and firepower on a single square meter, you better send a Marine, because he's just better at surviving the incoming punishment and returning fire. Even when you give everyone the same guns, on some level all that genetical enhancement provides an advantage. Even when it's just enabling the Marine to shoot a single round more than a normal human before going down, this is still an advantage that can decide entire battles.
Specialised troops for specialised jobs. I don't subscribe to the "replace Marines with Guardsmen" mentality that I sometimes see on the forums, just like I don't subscribe to the "Marines can win wars on their own" idea. To me, the truth is in-between. They're the best special forces the Imperium has available.
Gogsnik wrote:As we know Stainless can be corroded in the right circumstances, especially if ordinary steel fragments get into it and as the corrode, the corrosion can spread to the stainless it would appear a not dissimilar thing can happen to the Grey Knights which is why they needed to paint themselves in blood just to be on the safe side!
That still sounds biased in favour of the GKs. Ultimately, they apparently needed to augment their resilience, where at least most of the Sisters remained untouched due to nothing but their spiritual purity and zeal. This implies either that the Sisters' methods actually work better (as they did not do the blood thing), or that both are equally fallible.
"Blood of the innocent" is a fairly telling name, too.
Gogsnik wrote:Obviously both versions, corruptable Sisters and incorruptable Sisters both appeal to me greatly but they are exclusive ideas so at the end of the day you have to pick which version of the 40K universe appeals more in a given scenario explained by either one of them being propaganda and falsehoods.
Aye. The upside of all those contradictions is that we are publicly supposed to acknowledge that there is no singular truth, and that we are free to pick what we prefer.
I like the middle way with Miriael as the one unique exception. It comes across as more realistic in that it does away with an absolute and opens the door for a (very) limited number of repeat incidents, without truly attacking what I deem to be an important aspect of the army (spiritual purity and power of will).
In the same way I'd expect the GKs having their exceptions, too, though. There will be times when there's no Sisters to execute around. What would have happened on that planet if the Sisters had already died to the Bloodletters, or if there would've been no convent in the first place?
flamingkillamajig wrote:The sisters unlike space marines are still human and even the space marines retain a bit of their humanity.
Emotionally, I'd actually say the Marines are more human than the Sisters. At least they had a normal childhood, and they hang out with normal people (their Chapter serfs) more. And that's before you go into special cases like the Salamanders or the Space Wolves.
I'd argue that this is why so many of them turned, back then. Or why so many of them keep turning, like the SW on the "Wolf of Fenris" who preferred switching sides instead of dying in a heroic, but ultimately futile last stand as their cruiser was boarded.
In a way, I think this is also a disadvantage of their comparatively "worldly" lifestyle. Without a supposedly supernatural god and a heaven to believe in, the Space Marines have no afterlife other than (potentially) the memories of their comrades. As both history and our current age shows, belief in an afterlife can go a long way when it comes to deciding between facing certain death, or trading one's integrity for a prolonged life. For a Sororitas, death is merely a transition into another existence, and one at the side of their beloved god.
Marines of most Chapters will also think autonomous enough to ask many questions that a Sister would never ponder about, as the latter just soaks up everything it says in some piece of old scripture.
[quote=For me who is the mother and father figure for sisters?
In the Schola it would be the Drill-Abbot who keeps beating discipline and focus into their little heads. In the novitiate, it would likely be some teacher of the Orders Famulous. In their final assignment, I think it would be their Sister Superior - the Codex even mentions the latter "adopting" new Sisters into their squads, and it is them with whom they hang out the most.
The Canoness would probably be a sort of grandmotherly figure, for lack of a better comparison. I'm just not sure if it's actually a valid way to look at these things, applying such "conventional" terms to the Sisters as if their culture would not be utterly alien to our own lifestyle.
flamingkillamajig wrote:You can tell a lot of people something is crap and maybe you can convince them it's true but if they find out it's a lie by experiencing it themselves
How exactly? The Sisters would surely suffer a sort of "reality shock" if exposed to certain hard truths, but I'd say this is exactly why their convents prefer strict isolation from the outside world. And I'd say just by fighting in a warzone the Sisters aren't likely to notice the things you mean - they would have to actually experience the culture and "go native" like the Sisters Sabine (and the latter do so in a society not yet "blessed" by the Imperial Creed, so they'd believe their actions are bringing improvement to what is perceived as a flawed environment).
Your example with the Sister killing someone's parents also comes across as a bit .. idealistic and naive (no offence intended) in regards to the human nature. The "us vs them" is a strong element in our way of thinking; just consider the various heinous crimes committed during some war or in the pursuit of an ethnic cleansing or in some prison camp.
What we as educated citizens of the modern western world commonly hold as the correct way to treat other people is not an inherent standard, but the product of centuries, even millennia of sociocultural evolution. And as history and even contemporary examples prove, humans can easily fall back into a disturbingly sadistic state under certain circumstances - religious fanatism being among them.
When such crimes are not persecuted but instead commended, it sends a signal of normalcy and acceptance to the perpetrator. This issue is plagueing real world humanity to this very day, especially when so many nations and organisations are reluctant to deal with immorality in their own ranks as a matter of "saving face".
flamingkillamajig wrote:Perhaps they are so blind to things even when confronted with the truth they believe but that would mean even if they saw one of their leaders do something wrong they'd probably follow like little sheep to it. Maybe in the end whatever their leader says is the truth to them and in this sense they hold more loyalty to their leader than the original words said by them.
That is what I would expect, personally. It's kind of what happened with Vandire, no? The Post-M36 Sisters are now somewhat more guarded against corruption in the clergy, but loyalty runs big within the Adepta Sororitas.
In a way, this would make their leaders the most tempting victims for corruption, as they would be in a position to "spread the taint" to many others. Many of them would also be somewhat less innocent and blind, as by necessity and virtue of their station they were exposed to both the fractures between the various Imperial organisations and their dirty games of politics, as well as data archives considered secret/locked/forbidden for lesser eyes. I can only assume that this exposure is compensated for by the experience of age and a belief in the "greater good" of their work in the Emperor's name, as well as a feeling of deep responsibility for the spiritual wellbeing of the Sisters whose fate is now dependent on their decisions.
Man, again this post got way longer than initially intended. :(
For me a lot of this is hard to believe. You can tell a lot of people something is crap and maybe you can convince them it's true but if they find out it's a lie by experiencing it themselves (as the sisters still experience the outside world by fighting in it) then they start to doubt things. This doubt could turn into what they might consider heresy. Perhaps they are so blind to things even when confronted with the truth they believe but that would mean even if they saw one of their leaders do something wrong they'd probably follow like little sheep to it. Maybe in the end whatever their leader says is the truth to them and in this sense they hold more loyalty to their leader than the original words said by them. It's kind of like 'animal farm'. "Four legs good, 2 legs better!" or "Everybody is equal but some are more equal than others."
Why would they doubt? They see the Imperium outside the walls of their convent, and they see a world that is functioning as the God-Emperor intends it to be functioning. The purpose of life is to suffer, as He suffers, suffering brings you closer to the Golden Throne. Those who seek to change this, whether the bomb-wielding revolutionary or the liberal political reformer, are heretics, thinking themselves above the God-Emperor, thinking that they know better than He.
Further, the Imperium is not a society that holds to ideas of equality, or even much social mobility. One of the many "Imperial Thoughts for the Day" is a simple "Know Thy Place." It's a feudal society, where those at the bottom serve those above them, and they are not to plan to escape that situation, for it is as the Emperor commands it. Peasants do not become kings.
Then there's the issue that some people that hold a rigid lifestyle that are exposed to other things suddenly go in the complete opposite direction. In fact in my eyes when given temptation or forced it sisters would fall over like a wet paper house.
The Sisters look at the other aspects of Imperial life as near-blasphemous depravity and decadence. These temptations are a sure path to damnation, cast from the grace of the God-Emperor for eternity. Why would they forsake salvation, of a deity they *know* to exist, for some cheap thrill?
This isn't something like the USSR not having Levi jeans or Coca-Cola. The Sisterhood is a wealthy organization, and they possess, as an organization, pretty much anything they could want. Sisters, however, don't want much. They've lived their entire lives along strict religious orders and rules. They believe that anything they suffer is an act of religious devotion, it brings them closer to the God-Emperor. They're not tempted by a sugary drink or cotton pants.
I mean the sisters are still effected and effect the outside world. Maybe they use butterflies for target practice but I find it hard to believe there isn't some flaw somewhere in all their teachings. It wouldn't be a dystopian universe if everything said or done was absolutely perfect and there was no trouble of any kind. For sisters to stay absolutely pure they'd have to be monitored all the time and to never even once experience the outside world including battle-zones with chaos and all sorts of other things.
Sisters are monitored all the time, by themselves as individuals, by the Sisters of their Order, by the Ecclesiarchy and by the Inquisition in general (who monitor everyone). The most likely person to catch a Sister "slipping"? Herself.
If a sister has to kill a young girl's parents in front of her due to possible heresy chances are that might deeply affect her on an emotional level as she can relate to the pain. Perhaps she'd think it was the parents fault and blame them but still it might hurt her to think of what she'd just done.
The Sister would do it, and do it gladly and might well throw the child onto the pyre as well, for "sins hidden in the heart turn all to corruption." The Sister would do this task, and do it joyfully, for the Emperor commands that "thou shalt not suffer the witch, the mutant or the heretic to live".
And if the child were innocent? "Better that a thousand innocents should die than one guilty walk unpunished."
This is the Imperium, the "bloodiest regime imaginable", and the Sisters are part of that regime. They are the enforcers of the Emperor's will (as it is understood in M41), which includes the purging of traitors, heretics and mutants.
For me I just see seeds of doubt within the sisters and I see a possible chance of falling to chaos. Maybe I just see this as a universe where once you fall you can never come back sort of thing but being devout doesn't make you incorruptible. I just see it as some sort of written BS quotes that the order who wrote them says to sort of prevent others from thinking it's possible. For me I wonder if some thoughts of suicide and shootings in the real world happen in part because people are aware that others have done so. In a sense by not knowing they feel the chance a sister would start something heretical is lessened. Also the brainwashed sisters think themselves that it would never happen and they could never succeed in their heresy because to their knowledge and what they were told it's never happened or at least never gone anywhere.
While a Sister may, at times, experience a thought of doubt, she recognizes this, and goes off to find a Sister Superior to provide a faith-enhancing beating, or assignation to the Repentia. The Sisters are hard-core, and it really is possible, in 40K, to "beat the devil out" of someone... to use a real-world expression. It's basic negative-reinforcement conditioning... if she thinks that, then this happens. She doesn't like what "this" is, so she refuses to think of what "that" was. When "that" is heresy, and one's brain refuses to think about it, then there is no more heresy.
At the end of the day they're still humans, and so still susceptible to Chaos. Conditioning can only account for so much, and if marines are able to fall, so is everyone else (except perhaps GK).
I find it odd that people keep bring up "they're only human" as a point. Far, far more Astartes have fallen, yet we see no Chaos Sisters in studio fluff. Clearly, being more than human offers no special protection. So "even" Marines falling is hardly relevant to the Sisters, I'd say.
So what makes the Sisters special, where so many other humans and Asrartes have fallen? As has been said many a time, it's their faith. Belief and faith is what affords one protection against corruption, not physical form.
Banzaimash wrote:if marines are able to fall, so is everyone else
I must have missed which of the 19 implanted organs is the one responsible for improved Chaos resilience.
Or, to re-phrase - I think too many people have adopted a perception where Space Marines must be better at everything, when the fluff only talks about them being better at some things.
To expand upon my previous point, because it got me thinking, what makes the Marines vulnerable is their very diverse cultures, mannerisms and (for most) lack of faith. Corruption cares not about your physical form, but your mind. And with the Marines, their minds can have many openings in which corruption can take root. The Sisters, meanwhile, very specifically adress this issue. All of them. It's said that a Sister sees prayer as important a part of training as military drill, after all. Their unified, super-faithful culture is what protects their mind against corruption.
Wow, this thread went round and round in circles ahah. But yeah, seems that fluffwise there really isn't much support for it, although interpretation wise, I'm of the opinion that the touch of Chaos can get to anyone if necessary, and that talk of incorruptibility is a propaganda thing. I do count Grey Knights in this, for what it's worth.
Also people need to stop using Marines as a reason. There's too many reasons for why Marines are vulnerable to chaos...To the point where, as an outsider, you wonder if it wouldn't be better to scrap them all.
When it comes to Marines and Chaos, while lots of them have fallen, they also defeat a gakload of enemies for the Imperium, so it becomes a risk analysis sort of thing:
"Is the possible loss of this Chapter to Chaos worth the absolute tons of ass they will kick before that might happen?"
Banzaimash wrote:Perhaps a reason for why there are more examples of Marines falling is because there is more material on marines in general.
Well, this isn't a new development that could be attributed to the ever-increasing gap between the two factions' treatments - that half the Marines fell to Chaos during the Heresy has been a huge element ever since GW came up with the idea of Chaos an the Marines as we know them in 2nd Edition. At the same time, Sisters have always been presented as big on purity, with words like "incorruptible" accompanying their earliest rules to the present day.
The number of Marines falling to Chaos hasn't really increased for more than 20 years. It has always been kind of a thing with them. Additional imeline events or stories about individual people and incidents won't change a general tendency that is simply absent whenever the studio material talks about the SoB.
Whilst I really, really don't wish to derail the thread...Their cost, as in to create and use, when compared to their output seems a bit...Ehhh. Factoring in their Chaos vulnerability...Although there is the propaganda factor of the Angels thing.
Verses wrote:Whilst I really, really don't wish to derail the thread...Their cost, as in to create and use, when compared to their output seems a bit...Ehhh. Factoring in their Chaos vulnerability...Although there is the propaganda factor of the Angels thing.
Imo, they suck when you try to view them as an "army", but they are awesome as soon as you regard them as shock troops and special forces.
Another dakkanaut, I think it was Crimson(?), described their effect as a "force multiplier", which I think is absolutely correct. The Imperium's best battles are when you have the Marines work in concert with the Guard. Let the scalpel open up a weak spot so that the hammer can come crushing down.
Yes, the Imperium has other elite forces such as the Sisters or the Munitorum Storm Troopers (both apparently less numerous) or the Cadian Kasrkin and other elite regiments, but none are quite exactly as good or even better as the Marines at projecting the maximum of raw power and resilience into a single infantryman. And at times, this trait can be important enough to decide the outcome of a battle, especially in a combined-arms operation.
2x210 wrote: I'm thinking of modeling some Sisters into Chaos Chosen for a squad in my army, but I'm not sure if this would be fluffy or not any examples of sisters serving with chaos forces?
Play what you like. That's always more important than enslaving yourself to the fluff.
I've got plans for an eventual army project where an Order of Sisters are lost to the Warp for over 800 years when their Shrine World falls into a Warp Storm. When they come out they have gone insane, think Khorne is a manifestation of the Emperor's Wrath and begin purging the "Heresy" that they see everywhere (all of this happens in M42 of course just to not contradict any fluff ). The intent is to give me an army that is 150% fluffy to play against any other army by building 2 identically structured armies, but one wearing the mark of Khorne instead of the Imperial Eagle on their shoulder, and the like.
Though "PURGE THE HERETIC" is always a good excuse, sometimes you want to play the bad guy.
Verses wrote:Whilst I really, really don't wish to derail the thread...Their cost, as in to create and use, when compared to their output seems a bit...Ehhh. Factoring in their Chaos vulnerability...Although there is the propaganda factor of the Angels thing.
Imo, they suck when you try to view them as an "army", but they are awesome as soon as you regard them as shock troops and special forces.
Another dakkanaut, I think it was Crimson(?), described their effect as a "force multiplier", which I think is absolutely correct. The Imperium's best battles are when you have the Marines work in concert with the Guard. Let the scalpel open up a weak spot so that the hammer can come crushing down.
Yes, the Imperium has other elite forces such as the Sisters or the Munitorum Storm Troopers (both apparently less numerous) or the Cadian Kasrkin and other elite regiments, but none are quite exactly as good or even better as the Marines at projecting the maximum of raw power and resilience into a single infantryman. And at times, this trait can be important enough to decide the outcome of a battle, especially in a combined-arms operation.
Verses wrote:Whilst I really, really don't wish to derail the thread...Their cost, as in to create and use, when compared to their output seems a bit...Ehhh. Factoring in their Chaos vulnerability...Although there is the propaganda factor of the Angels thing.
Imo, they suck when you try to view them as an "army", but they are awesome as soon as you regard them as shock troops and special forces.
Another dakkanaut, I think it was Crimson(?), described their effect as a "force multiplier", which I think is absolutely correct. The Imperium's best battles are when you have the Marines work in concert with the Guard. Let the scalpel open up a weak spot so that the hammer can come crushing down.
Yes, the Imperium has other elite forces such as the Sisters or the Munitorum Storm Troopers (both apparently less numerous) or the Cadian Kasrkin and other elite regiments, but none are quite exactly as good or even better as the Marines at projecting the maximum of raw power and resilience into a single infantryman. And at times, this trait can be important enough to decide the outcome of a battle, especially in a combined-arms operation.
Omg yes so much this. I always imagined space marines as special forces rather than 100 or so marines coming down and destroying an entire planet's worth of baddies. At least this is how I wished they were. They can react quickly to a situation and win where it matters most but I always imagined them as having a hard time fighting a protracted battle.
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Back on the subject of the space marines it's more they're not totally human. I always viewed marines as emotionally stunted. I also kind of imagined them as castrated too since they're warrior monks but that's a bit of fluff people aren't sure of (because marine players would totally rage against it ;P).
With grey knights however I think the issue is more they think it's the gene-seed of the emperor being used and for some reason this makes them totally immune to corruption as the emperor is and in a sense they're a bit of him. I imagine that sisters counterpart to be chaos followers rather than the daemons themselves. I imagine grey knights to be the counterpart to daemons and somewhat chaos marines. However even being somewhat of the emperor I still don't view them as entirely incorruptible. Being psykers makes this much harder for them.
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For me I also think it's weird considering their rigid life-style that you never hear space marines or sisters of battle possibly talking about their day and other stuff to their fellow soldiers even possibly during the down time of a battle. I'm not sure if any of you have seen this but it's kind of like that moment in 'Charlie Wilson's War' where it shows the soviet pilots in the helicopters gunning down afghani people while they are casually talking about one of them trying to get with some woman and the other two are basically teasing him. Then the afghani people use some of the U.S. provided rockets to kill one or try to shoot one down and they start to panic and go into battle mode. Course the afghani people destroyed all 3 helicopters though and killed their pilots.
I think the thing about some of these strict orders you still have people talking during the down time or the more un-exciting bits. Possibly even sisters just talk normally to each other when the job is to put a bullet in the head of an un-armed heretic they found. It's more a matter of even if it's a job where you work most of the time you tend to at least talk to your co-workers during the down time so even then you still have a bit of a social life. You could work almost all the time and still have a bit of a social life. It's just it'd mostly exist at work. Same goes for soldiers as it's not like they can go anywhere else.
I understand some may say that the point of a rigid life-style for the 'sisters' is that they never talk about daily life almost. I mean more along the lines of a 24/7 type of thing means you tend to talk about other stuff during the down time. For me it's a little hard to believe they wouldn't talk casually with certain things like guard duty and being stationed somewhere. Even if their talks include acts of penance and something more suited to sisters i'd still find it hard to believe they wouldn't talk about things in general.
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@lynata: Don't worry I always imagine you're actually pretty nice except when really provoked so saying one thing I said is 'idealistic' or a bit 'naive' isn't too bad esp. when you try to throw out you're not trying to offend. I suppose i'm a bit gullible at times so yeah the naïve part can fit the bill. I'm a bit idealistic too but at the end of the day reality hits and you realize things don't really change so drastically over a short time for the most part.
If I had a say on how things were run it'd possibly be that everybody is held accountable by at least somebody else or another group and often times several others. Sure sometimes freedom allows you to do whatever you want but without some control people do absolutely whatever they want even at the expense of others. I feel when somebody isn't held responsible for their actions often enough they get used to it and it becomes a normal thing and expected. If everybody is held responsible for their actions then everybody is held in check and abuses of power and freedom are often held back. It might sound weird but it's true that absolute freedom is chaos and anarchy. I'd rather be more free than strictly controlled but i'm not happy about absolute freedom either.
Sorry for going off topic heh. Anyway as far as people here go I like you so don't feel bad if you come off a certain way. If it really gets to me make sure you straighten out what you meant if it sounds incendiary in nature or at least fix things afterwards.
Lynata wrote: What I consider remarkable, and which I think you are ignoring, is that up to the mistreatment by the guards, this inmate genuinely believed in doing the right thing. Up to that point, the indoctrination worked perfectly.
I don't ignore it, I just don't see it as that relevent. Yes, the indoctrination worked, he believed in what he was doing.
However, the important fact is that he is no-longer indoctrinated. He regrets what he did then and given a second chance his current self would not make that decision.
We are to believe that if this story was about a Sister she would still be perfectly indoctrinated.
My point about this aspect of the discussion is that a Sister, as a human being, could well end up in a situation where the constant flood of indoctrination she has in her every waking moment and that constantly reinforces her beliefs could end and thence lead to her corruption, especially a very concentrated, sentient and infinite corruption like Chaos.
As pointed out elsewhere a Sister would not be tempted by the chance for some chocolate and nice pants but Chaos is so much more than that, so much more.
But then you wouldn't have super-strength, super-toughness and psychic powers. Regardless of the Sisters' martial abilities, surely those are an advantage when fighting a daemonic incursion.
I mean, that's like argueing replacing all Space Marines with Cadian Kasrkin. It'd work on some level, but ultimately you'd notice that whenever you want to deploy the heaviest concentration of resilience and firepower on a single square meter, you better send a Marine, because he's just better at surviving the incoming punishment and returning fire. Even when you give everyone the same guns, on some level all that genetical enhancement provides an advantage. Even when it's just enabling the Marine to shoot a single round more than a normal human before going down, this is still an advantage that can decide entire battles.
Specialised troops for specialised jobs. I don't subscribe to the "replace Marines with Guardsmen" mentality that I sometimes see on the forums, just like I don't subscribe to the "Marines can win wars on their own" idea. To me, the truth is in-between. They're the best special forces the Imperium has available.
I fully agree with the points here and the others in the thread about why Marines are worth the 'cost' and the stengths/weaknesses they have over other human troops.
The point I am trying to make though is that, unlike the Astartes, whose inductees must be genetically compatible with the organs that turn a human into an Astartes before their temperant and attitude are even considered, the Sisters attain their nature from pure lifestyle.
There is nothing inherent in a Sister's creation that could not apply to any human. We know there are no Brothers of Battle because of the Decree Passive, but, given the emphasis placed on these formative Schola years that produce the Sister's faith because it has been drummed into them from birth, what of the other Progena who had the same upbringing and as much faith as these girls but could not become Sisters by simply being male?
Of course, the Schola is only the start of what makes a Sister but if the from birth aspect is so crucial then what happens in a Commissar's later life or a Storm Troper's later life or an Inquisitor's later life that the benefit of this childhood wears off and makes them open to corruption? If it can wear off for them then it could wear off for a Sister too since the reason why it continues to remain effective is the Sister's continued religious lifestyle. Take that lifestyle away though and...
As to the other point about making troops that recreate the Sisters incorruptable nature their lifestyle could easily be recreated. Not for warriors of the Ecclesiarchy because of the Decree but as generally God-Emperor Fearing soldiers; the cloistered lifestyle, the training, the religious devotion and the indoctrination could be recreated.
Also, I am aware that not all female Progena are suitable for the Sisters but the high expectations of the Sisterhood which discards certain individuals could still be re-created in a none Ecclesiarchy environment and also, not just for the orphans of Imperial Servants either but for as many children as could be got and put into this environment which would churn out legions of utterly loyal, faithful and 'incorruptable' soldiers. They would not need to replace any other troops but as a resource they would be incredibly potent.
It doesn't happen though and I don't suppose speculating on that is worth the effort here but I wanted to clarify why I brought it up earlier.
That still sounds biased in favour of the GKs. Ultimately, they apparently needed to augment their resilience, where at least most of the Sisters remained untouched due to nothing but their spiritual purity and zeal. This implies either that the Sisters' methods actually work better (as they did not do the blood thing), or that both are equally fallible.
"Blood of the innocent" is a fairly telling name, too.
Aye. The upside of all those contradictions is that we are publicly supposed to acknowledge that there is no singular truth, and that we are free to pick what we prefer.
I like the middle way with Miriael as the one unique exception. It comes across as more realistic in that it does away with an absolute and opens the door for a (very) limited number of repeat incidents, without truly attacking what I deem to be an important aspect of the army (spiritual purity and power of will).
In the same way I'd expect the GKs having their exceptions, too, though. There will be times when there's no Sisters to execute around. What would have happened on that planet if the Sisters had already died to the Bloodletters, or if there would've been no convent in the first place?
I do think there is a bias in favour of the Grey Knights though because of what they are as creatures. I think their very nature makes it very hard for Chaos to even begin trying to corrupt them, just like being a Blank makes it hard for a daemon to even see that person. It doesn't follow that Blanks are immune to Chaos but in a given situation the Blank and a Grey Knight are outside of the scope of Chaos to a large extent (note I am not confusing why a Blank is resistant with why a Grey Knight is also resistant I just want to emphasise the physical quality of that resistance). Even as psykers, yes their souls burn so brightly that Chaos is drawn to them like a gourmand to an all-you-can-eat buffet but thir psychic nature, suitably trained can given them a much, much better chance of withstanding Chaos. Non-psykers by comparrion have to rely on being less tasty to get them by but once targeted have no power to use to protect themselves.
Then, once you get past that aspect, faith itself becomes important. So much of what Chaos is and the power it has is based on symbolism and belief (it's a bit like the Matrix, there is no spoon ) belief can act as a shield and barrier but only to an extent. I think that for the Grey Knights, unlike many other Space Marines (who mostly should have little concept of Chaos since it's all hush-hush but that's another debate entirely) also have a mentality, designed to protect them as well. Even so, what we are told is that no Grey Knight has ever fallen to Chaos so far but that does not necessarily mean that they could not fall. It's a bit like saying the Golden Throne is failing, so far so good, but in another ten thousand years, in twenty?
I agree that the whole point of the Sisters is to be the purest of the pure, the most faithful, the most devoted and not just religious troops who only exist because of some rules lawyering about 'Men Under Arms' but I still don't think that means that in the right circumstances and with the right concentration of effort they could not be broken.
Lynata wrote: At the same time, Sisters have always been presented as big on purity, with words like "incorruptible" accompanying their earliest rules to the present day.
The number of Marines falling to Chaos hasn't really increased for more than 20 years. It has always been kind of a thing with them. Additional imeline events or stories about individual people and incidents won't change a general tendency that is simply absent whenever the studio material talks about the SoB.
That is the problem though right there isn't it; 'whenever the studio material talks about the SoB'. The Sisters have had very little love from the Studio and much of what we know of them, even in the most recent background is pretty mich the same background copied into the latest edition. We would need a big effort from the studio that really fleshes out the Sisters to get some movement with them. For Marines, the Heresy and the fall of Chapters hasn't changed much in content but the fleshing out of it all is immense. Compare the material that covers Marines to that which covers Sisters; it doesn't even compare.
Marines resist chaos corruption through science. They use hypnosis, drugs, and implants to cram knowledge and propaganda into a new recruit which turns him into a perfect, obedient killing machine biologically designed to resist psychological attacks.
Sisters resist chaos corruption through faith. They brainwash recruits from infancy, teach catechisms, instill hatred of anything non-Imperium, and surround themselves with like-minded comrades to reduce a sense of self-worth or ego.
Grey Knights resist chaos corruption through sorcery. They cover themselves from head to toe in wards and sigils, inscribe them on their own bones, and deck themselves in special armor with runes and protective detailing on every flat surface.
Chaos can circumvent space marine science by appealing to their lack of faith. Most marines that go rogue do so because they don't have fellow brethren around to reinforce their own beliefs, or chaplains to instill faithfulness.
Sisters are human beings without the enhanced physiology of a marine. Chaos can talk at them all day long and their defenses will protect against that. Slice out a piece of their brain or stick a probe through an eye socket though and you get around that weak flesh pretty easy. They could be controlled by any sort of technology.
And both space marines and sisters can get taken out by sorcery just fine. Blood tides, ill-fated crusades into the Eye, being in the presence of a particularly powerful greater daemon, they can zap you into a chaos worshiper and all the faith or extra glands in the world isn't going to stop it if they put enough magic into it.
Grey Knights get around all this by having the science of space marines, the faith of sisters (albeit less of a blind faith in a vague all-powerful god and more of an applied science kind of faith where they carve up faithful sisters and use pieces of them instead) and sorcery with their fifty pounds of hexagrammatic wards. And even with that, they can still be corrupted.
The difference is that all those wards on their flesh and bones and armor don't just shield them from corruption. A grey knight who has all his defenses strong-armed by impatient demigods who just want the worship right now is gonna have those wards and sigils suddenly go sizzle crack pop, and the Grey Knights continue to have a flawless track record of no living brothers corrupted by Chaos.
After all, they're specifically designed to fight the most corrupting power in the universe, and their own psyker brains make them the biggest targets of all. If they're willing to murder a planet to keep any corruption from spreading, why would they hesitate for an instant over someone with all that knowledge and power and training?
...And that's my thesis on chaos corruption in the Imperium of Man. Gonna get me a Bachelor's Degree in Science Fiction Applied Psychology from Phoenix University for sure.
What is not at question is a Sister's ability to be killed by the various predations of Chaos. A Sister who fails to resist a Chaos Sorcerer's ability to control minds, for example, has no further immunity to such things... but she hasn't Fallen. She has not willingly pledged herself to the service of the Ruinous Powers.
A Sister can die to the mutating waves of power radiated by a Lord of Change, just like a Grey Knight can, but though both die as their flesh corrupts and mutates around them, they will die cursing the Daemon's name and praising the Emperor. Their souls remain pure, and neither of them have Fallen to Chaos.
That's what we're talking about. The willing choice by a Sister to serve the Ruinous Powers, not simply dying or mutating because she was exposed to the corrupting effects of the Warp and Daemon-magics.
The "Screaming Cage" is a great example of that. Despite being turned into a massive internconnected organism by Slaanesh (or one of his Daemons) an Order instead used the power this gave them to resist and instead "birthed" Stern, giving her the gift of all the knowledge that says what Slaanesh is, and how to beat him. This also turned her into what is basically a Living Saint.
The Screaming Cage, despite their predicament never willingly served Chaos, and even found a way to fight against it despite their situation.
flamingkillamajig wrote:I'm a bit idealistic too but at the end of the day reality hits and you realize things don't really change so drastically over a short time for the most part.
Sounds a bit like me, then. Of course that combination is kind of a free ticket to a rather pessimistic perspective of the world - you'd like things to be one way, but notice that things sadly don't work like that..
Gogsnik wrote:I don't ignore it, I just don't see it as that relevent. Yes, the indoctrination worked, he believed in what he was doing. However, the important fact is that he is no-longer indoctrinated. He regrets what he did then and given a second chance his current self would not make that decision. We are to believe that if this story was about a Sister she would still be perfectly indoctrinated.
No - see, you ignored half my argument. That camp was flawed because it had only sticks, not the carrot and the stick. That guy didn't break free from indoctrination because he had contact with the outside or any subversive elements of the Free World™ or because that "constant flood of indoctrination had ended" as you claim it could happen to a Sister .. it happened inside the camp whilst still subjected to its daily life. He fled because he realised that he's getting mistreated no matter what, because of how the corrupt guards essentially tortured him for doing what he was taught to do. In essence, the personnel at the camp were undermining their own indoctrination program. And the Sisterhood just doesn't work that way.
Gogsnik wrote:There is nothing inherent in a Sister's creation that could not apply to any human. We know there are no Brothers of Battle because of the Decree Passive, but, given the emphasis placed on these formative Schola years that produce the Sister's faith because it has been drummed into them from birth, what of the other Progena who had the same upbringing and as much faith as these girls but could not become Sisters by simply being male? Of course, the Schola is only the start of what makes a Sister but if the from birth aspect is so crucial then what happens in a Commissar's later life or a Storm Troper's later life or an Inquisitor's later life that the benefit of this childhood wears off and makes them open to corruption?
Several things: - the majority of progena would not be in the Schola "from birth" but were inducted at a later point in their age, meaning they had an ordinary childhood and parents they would remember - Commissars are exposed to "ordinary people" by being attached to Imperial Guard regiments raised on worlds that have a considerably different culture than the Schola - Storm Troopers focus on martial training; they do not have the prayer and meditation aspect of the Sisters - the majority of Inquisitors is not recruited out of the Schola Progenium (this is actually an exception) but out of another Inquisitor's retinue that he picked up over time (-> the rank of "Interrogator" is essentially a Pre-Inquisitor), or from the League of Black Ships (-> psykers) - Inquisitors are even more exposed to the "grim harsh truth" of the galaxy rather than being allowed to lead a life of cosy denial, hugging the propaganda pillow
Could the Imperium produce more faithful troops by expanding the Schola program? Sure. Would it be worth the effort? Hardly. Sororitas are already just a small percentage of Schola graduates, and expanding the program would mean you end up with even more Administratum clerks and other "normal" graduates you don't exactly need a special education for. Also consider this: It takes about 10 years to create a Space Marine. It takes about 17 to produce a Sister of Battle.
The Imperium does not need legions of troops that are more faithful, loyal and incorruptible than the regiments it has already, because the Imperial Guard is good enough for the job it currently does. Because the Imperium needs to invest next to nothing into raising a fresh regiment as it's part of a planet's tithe. And considering the high casualty rates that the IG experiences, spending decades on troops that are more loyal and more suicidal just seems like a huuuuuuuge waste when you consider that many of them won't survive their very first engagement with the enemy. Hell, the Imperium doesn't even manage to give everyone body armour, and here you want them to install something like a universal education?
Gogsnik wrote:belief can act as a shield and barrier but only to an extent
It's not just "to an extent" - the Warp itself is based on thought and emotion. In this manner, willpower is the exact same force that the Immaterium operates on. You can literally "will" a psychic phenomenon out of existence, and affect even daemons by sheer power of belief.
Gogsnik wrote:Even so, what we are told is that no Grey Knight has ever fallen to Chaos so far but that does not necessarily mean that they could not fall. It's a bit like saying the Golden Throne is failing, so far so good, but in another ten thousand years, in twenty?
So it's like with the Sisters. Apparently we are in agreement after all?
Gogsnik wrote:That is the problem though right there isn't it; 'whenever the studio material talks about the SoB'. The Sisters have had very little love from the Studio and much of what we know of them, even in the most recent background is pretty mich the same background copied into the latest edition.
To be fair, it's not really different in the Space Marine codices if you compare the different editions. They do like their copypasta.
ClockworkZion wrote:The "Screaming Cage" is a great example of that. Despite being turned into a massive internconnected organism by Slaanesh (or one of his Daemons) an Order instead used the power this gave them to resist and instead "birthed" Stern, giving her the gift of all the knowledge that says what Slaanesh is, and how to beat him. This also turned her into what is basically a Living Saint. The Screaming Cage, despite their predicament never willingly served Chaos, and even found a way to fight against it despite their situation.
On the other hand, that graphic novel (as much as I love it for the cool narrative, the characters, and the visuals) had loads of Sisters being corrupted and fighting against each other, and even featured a version of "Chaos Sisters". The Screaming Cage was just the victims that, by the power of their faith, were not turned and managed to resist, but instead were subjugated by the fallen Sisters and then "experimented" upon to create that psychic abomination.
That was a theory that I proposed in an earlier thread as an alternative (to address the very issue that is being discussed here), but it is actually not made clear in the comic itself. It could be taken either way.
And at the end of the day, that Keeper of Secrets still talked its way into their minds.
Well sisters can fall according to the grey knights omnibus but its rare [u]according to the cannoness in the book. According to the grey knights codex and the omnibus no grey knight has fallen yet but there are loads of stories and in the omnibus with grey knights breaking their backs over who is going to fall first.
As I said before I could see a squad or a single sister falling. So you could have a chaos lord sister or a squad of chosen but I really don't see a whole coven falling to chaos IMO.
Lynata wrote: Several things:
- the majority of progena would not be in the Schola "from birth" but were inducted at a later point in their age, meaning they had an ordinary childhood and parents they would remember
- Commissars are exposed to "ordinary people" by being attached to Imperial Guard regiments raised on worlds that have a considerably different culture than the Schola
- Storm Troopers focus on martial training; they do not have the prayer and meditation aspect of the Sisters
- the majority of Inquisitors is not recruited out of the Schola Progenium (this is actually an exception) but out of another Inquisitor's retinue that he picked up over time (-> the rank of "Interrogator" is essentially a Pre-Inquisitor), or from the League of Black Ships (-> psykers)
- Inquisitors are even more exposed to the "grim harsh truth" of the galaxy rather than being allowed to lead a life of cosy denial, hugging the propaganda pillow
Well, I mentioned the whole 'from birth' thing because other posters seemed to be making a big deal out of it. I mean, we are told that they only recruit from the Schola in more recent background although I see no reason why an older or adult woman could not 'get thee to a nunnery'.
Like you say, they can get orphans of all ages and personally, unless someone has a source for it, I don't even see those Progena tipped for the Sororitas always or even ever having to have been in the Schola 'from birth'.
I covered the fact that other Progena don't benefit from the Sisters lifestyle that provides a continuation of faith instilling begun in the Schola but again, people were making a big deal of the 'from birth' thing and so my point was to question the validity of saying that the Sororitas are so super because they are conditioned 'from birth' as not being that fundamentally important.
If their later Sororitas lifestyle produces their famed incorruptability predicated on their 'from birth' Schola upbringing then in the case of other Schola it seems this foundation doesn't provide such a wonderful base frame. I question the whole 'from birth' aspect mentioned by others, I don't agree with its significance myself.
Could the Imperium produce more faithful troops <snip>
I don't really want to discuss this so much, I mentioned it earlier to act as an intensifier for my points. Grey Knights were designed to be immune to Chaos primarily. I argue their nature as something more than a normal Astartes makes them this way and therefore, earlier in the discussion I wanted to highlight the reasons why Grey Knights are less likely than a Sister to fall. Simply put I was arguing that a Grey Knights biology is superior to a Sister's faith when that faith is the product of an indoctrination programme 'from birth' a process more simple to emulate than the process to make a Grey Knight.
Anyway, this is going in circles so let's move on. Phew!
It's not just "to an extent" - the Warp itself is based on thought and emotion. In this manner, willpower is the exact same force that the Immaterium operates on. You can literally "will" a psychic phenomenon out of existence, and affect even daemons by sheer power of belief.
Hrrm, well, if that were strictly true then you'd think that all those billions of faithful could have willed heresy out of existence by now then. I stand by my point on this one, it is 'to an extent'.
As an example of what I'm thinking here then picture two people falling into a stormy ocean. One has trained for years to hold their breath, one is a normal person. They both hold their breath as they go under the water and 'to an extent' this will stop them drowning but even though one can hold their breath for minutes and not seconds they will both eventually drown.
The same applies to the Warp and its denizens. Sure, someone like a Sister could will away the effects of Chaos far longer than a normal human but eventually the infinite nature of the Warp and Chaos will shatter that will - we're talking about during a direct assault here so in terms of a Sister they won't often have to pit their will and faith against daemonic enemies. I think it is very much 'to an extent'.
Anyway, I've said about as much as I can say on it all.
Gogsnik wrote:Well, I mentioned the whole 'from birth' thing because other posters seemed to be making a big deal out of it. I mean, we are told that they only recruit from the Schola in more recent background although I see no reason why an older or adult woman could not 'get thee to a nunnery'.
Well, it is a big deal - that's what "we" (insofar as I could speak for the other, anyways) are saying. Only with that clean slate will the indoctrination be total, else you'll always have something from your old life tucked away somewhere, and that something could become a weakness.
Gogsnik wrote:Like you say, they can get orphans of all ages and personally, unless someone has a source for it, I don't even see those Progena tipped for the Sororitas always or even ever having to have been in the Schola 'from birth'.
Various sources.
From their very first rules in WD #211, shortly before they got their first Codex: "The Battle Sisters are utterly dedicated to the Emperor. Their one purpose is to strive for his honour and glory and to protect the Imperium from all threats. The faith of the Adepta Sororitas is unswerving, they are raised from birth to believe the Emperor is the only hope for humanity. Their pious, rigid way of life allows the Battle Sisters no room for pleasure, there is only prayer and war. There is nothing an enemy could offer them, they are impossible to bribe and totally incorruptible." ... all the way to the newest 6E DigiDex: "The Adepta Sororitas, also known as the Sisters of Battle, are an elite sisterhood of warriors raised from infancy to adore the Emperor of Mankind. [...] Every Battle Sister is an orphan raised from birth to believe in the righteousness of their cause."
There's more in the codices and other material released between those two sources, but you get the gist of it. This is not a requirement for Commissars, Storm Troopers, or Inquisitors, though - hence you may find that, perhaps, their indoctrination is not as thorough. Though it could also be because they do not "enjoy" the rigid convent life of the Sisterhood. Or it is a combination of these two factors - the clean slate and the constant reaffirmation. *shrug*
Of course, non-GW sources tend to forget or ignore such details. For example, I remember that one of the Shira Calpurnia novels mentions some noble joining the Sisterhood at a much later age, not even going through Schola education. That's just how the fluff in 40k works - gotta pick what you like more. In the end, I'm just here to point out what it says in GW's original writings. What everyone does with that is their own choice.
Gogsnik wrote:Anyway, this is going in circles so let's move on. Phew!
Yeah, some things are just a matter of interpretation, and it's unavoidable that personal preference will factor into it when you simply have to pick one or the other, and both are equally valid options. It's like Gav Thorpe once wrote on his blog: "thousands of overlapping realities in the minds of thousands of readers, and neither of them is wrong."
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), and hence want to do Slaaneshi sisters.
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. Remember how Mortarion was resistant to it's natal world diseases. If even that guy can fall sick because of Nurgle, Sisters can too.
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