CSM players have been unhappy since their codex came out. I've been playing CSM since 3rd edition and I'm not happy either. If you've played CSM over the years, you'll know that they've never been top competition, despite some gifted players doing pretty darn well with them on the tournament scene. The 3.5 dex was good, but there were better lists out there. For as long as I played 40k, nobody who wanted to beat all their friends at 40k and become king dweeb was picking CSM as their army of choice. Some players pick their armies based off of the models GW makes, and although Chaos gives the opportunity for come cool conversions, a lot of the CSM models have been behind the curve. Until recently, one of the kits for CSM dated back as far as 2nd edition and many sculpts go back to 3rd still. I'm sure some people picked Chaos for the models but it's not the main reason. I think the big draw for CSM has been the fluff. Archenemies of mankind, dark gods, ancient evil, demigods turned into daemons, the Horus Heresy... I got into the Death Guard because of Mortarion's story. The more time goes on, the CSM codexes have walked the army list further and further from the fluff that I, and I think most CSM players, chose the army for.
6th edition was a bit of a slap in the face. CSM was the first codex out. CSM was featured in the starter set. There were rumors that GW was shifting the fluff from an Imperium vs. Tyranids paradigm to an Imperium vs. Chaos one. When it became known that Phil Kelley was going to write the codex, a collective cheer rose up from CSM collectors. I personally was never more excited for a codex to drop. But then it did and GW punched CSM right in the gut. We wanted Traitor Legions but all we got was dinosaur robots. We wanted dirty tricks, but we got up the middle. We wanted powerful characters but we got weak characters with a rule that forces them to fight suicidal challenges. We wanted warbands, we got Space Marine Chapters with horns. Why the hell doesn't Tzeentch, the god who plots out the future, have access to Divination? Why can a Chapter Master beat the tar out of a 10,000 year old Chaos Lord with his powers augmented by the dark gods of the warp? To add insult to injury, the fluff sections of the codex were copy/pasted from the 5th edition CSM codex with the odd adjective swapped for a synonym like a 3rd grader cribbing the encyclopedia for a school report.
What made the whole thing worse was that the best stuff in the codex was the least fluffy. Obliterators are their own cult and don't worship the chaos gods, but now who doesn't take the Mark of Nurgle on them to keep them from getting insta-killed by Str 8 weaponry. What the heck is a Helldrake? A Hellblade that mutated into a dragon. So I can take the mutated flying techno dinosaur version but NOT a Hellblade? Thanks Phil, that's just what Chaos needed. So now when I say that I'm unhappy with the codex in general I get other players telling me to shut up and quit complaining because CSM can win if I take multiple Helldrakes. But if I take more than one Helldrake (or any Helldrakes) I'm a WAAC jerk. So I'm either a loser or a jerk.
Just when you think the hit on CSM couldn't be executed with any more perfection, they tease us. Every new supplement and data slate is an opportunity to fix the mistakes that were made but instead GW doubles down. And now 7th takes even the evil Helldrake away, teases us with Divination by a misprint on the psychic powers card and then dashes our hopes with the FAQ, nerfs our daemon princes and gives us the same exact ability to summon chaos daemons as the Ultramarines. Traitor Guard with CSM got shot down too because AM and CSM are Come the Apocalypse. Is it really surprising to people that CSM players feel crapped on this edition?
So, we have a noncompetitive codex that doesn't reflect the army's fluff, has no special tactics or strategies, is full of underpowered units and can't ally properly with anything.
GW, if you want to sell us CSM models and books, how exactly do you propose we use them if you phone in the fluff and make them barely usable in the game?
While I agree for the most part I have to say...some perspective might make you feel a bit better. As a CSM and Tyranid player since third like yourself, I know all about bad codices. With that in mind...I still would rather have the current CSM codex than the current Tyranid codex.
There are still decent options in the CSM codex while the Tyranid codex has become an exercise in taking the least bad units. Remember all the warriors you saw in 5th? No? Me either, no one played them. How often do you see them now, in 6th/7th? Fairly often. Nothing changed with them, it is just a matter that everything else got so much worse that Warriors all of a sudden looked more appealing.
The Heldrake is still freaking amazing. Obliterators, Bikes, Spawn, Lords, Plague Marines, etc. are still viable options. There is still good list in there, just hard to see. With the advent of 7th vehicle rules I think that Mauler Fiends have become much more appealing and I hope to run a few with my CSM.
The Chaos Marine codex apparently represents loosely affiliated warbands and independent cults, and is not really representative of the Legions or Black Crusades. So you get renegades like Huron and Fabius, the Warpsmiths, Apostles, the dark mechanicus robot monsters, cultists, etc-etc. Why Abaddon is in there too, who knows. Maybe he moonlights as an independent Chaos Lord to raise money for his crusades.
I'd either hold out for a new codex that follows the recent Space Marine one with various different playstyles, or look at using the Forgeworld 30k Legion rules to represent your dudes. The latter in particular would probably suit you pretty well, is super fluffy, and you can take warlords that will put a chapter master to shame.
Actually (even though I don't play CSM), I kind of like the more dark machenicum units. I also find the models really good.
Yes, maybe CSM can't take Hellblades. Maybe speaking to your opponent about using a Hellblade in a casual setting might work?
I also agree with Arbiter_Shade. I'd rather have a somewhat functioning army rather than one that's prone to eat itself if you're not careful and has almost no good SCs. (Well... in my opinion at least.)
Arbiter_Shade wrote: While I agree for the most part I have to say...some perspective might make you feel a bit better. As a CSM and Tyranid player since third like yourself, I know all about bad codices. With that in mind...I still would rather have the current CSM codex than the current Tyranid codex.
There are still decent options in the CSM codex while the Tyranid codex has become an exercise in taking the least bad units. Remember all the warriors you saw in 5th? No? Me either, no one played them. How often do you see them now, in 6th/7th? Fairly often. Nothing changed with them, it is just a matter that everything else got so much worse that Warriors all of a sudden looked more appealing.
The Heldrake is still freaking amazing. Obliterators, Bikes, Spawn, Lords, Plague Marines, etc. are still viable options. There is still good list in there, just hard to see. With the advent of 7th vehicle rules I think that Mauler Fiends have become much more appealing and I hope to run a few with my CSM.
I don't think anyone can say that Tyranids are a good army and I feel for any players that have fallen for them like I've fallen for CSM and had to suffer through the last two codecies. Tyranids, however, have been treated a bit better because they have recieved lots of new sculpts with new releases and you can still make a fluffy Tyranid swarm with your codex.
You're still thinking too much about the army's strength on the tabletop to really understand where CSM players are coming from. Pretend that the 6th ed Tyranid codex was just like it is now except; they bring back Zoats and make them super killy and obviously undercost them; your codex is really more of a splinter fleet codex than one for the hivefleets they write about in the fluff section of the book so your only troop options are Termagants and Rippers, everything else goes to Elites; your Carnifex sculpts are from 4th, your warrior sculpts are the bucky beavers from 2nd, you get new Termagant sculpts with the release and your only Genestealer model options are the Ymgarls with the tentacle faces. Losing Shadow in the Warp is a bigger hit to gameplay than CSM never getting Divination despite Tzeentch, but it's still just as derpy fluff wise.
As for our good units, there are problems with them as well. Lords are one of the weakest HQs in the game, and in a codex where they must challenge that is a very bad thing. Plague Marines aren't all they're cracked up to be. Loyalists get bikes cheaper with better rules. Obliterators are only good if they're sporting a Mark they would never take in fluff. I'm confused as to why you think Spawn are good for anything....
Truth118 wrote: Utilize the powers of Chaos to their true potential by summoning daemons.
CSM still perils on any double when using Daemonology AFAIK. They have the same capability of summoning daemons as the Ultramarines. Considering you need 3 successes and perils on any double, that's a pretty good way to get your sorceror or daemon prince killed for very little benefit.
Badablack wrote:The Chaos Marine codex apparently represents loosely affiliated warbands and independent cults, and is not really representative of the Legions or Black Crusades. So you get renegades like Huron and Fabius, the Warpsmiths, Apostles, the dark mechanicus robot monsters, cultists, etc-etc. Why Abaddon is in there too, who knows. Maybe he moonlights as an independent Chaos Lord to raise money for his crusades.
I'd either hold out for a new codex that follows the recent Space Marine one with various different playstyles, or look at using the Forgeworld 30k Legion rules to represent your dudes. The latter in particular would probably suit you pretty well, is super fluffy, and you can take warlords that will put a chapter master to shame.
CSM players have been waiting for a legions codex since the 4th edition codex came out. This is exactly what is needed. We got Black Legion, but you could already make a fluffy BL list with the current codex. If they made a supplement for a traitor legion OTHER than Black Legion it would sell like crazy.
I play Death Guard legion. I can't represent my legion with the FW 30K legion stuff yet because the DG haven't turned to Nurgle yet in their timeline. It will be years before they get far enough that they will have Plague Marines available. The same is true for my friends who play Thousand Sons and World Eaters.
Nightlord1987 wrote:Go Unbound!
I was SOOOOO excited for the Unbound rules until I found out that AM is 'Come the Apocalypse' with CSM. That really throws a huge spanner in the works for me.
Badablack wrote: The Chaos Marine codex apparently represents loosely affiliated warbands and independent cults, and is not really representative of the Legions or Black Crusades. So you get renegades like Huron and Fabius, the Warpsmiths, Apostles, the dark mechanicus robot monsters, cultists, etc-etc. Why Abaddon is in there too, who knows. Maybe he moonlights as an independent Chaos Lord to raise money for his crusades.
I'd either hold out for a new codex that follows the recent Space Marine one with various different playstyles, or look at using the Forgeworld 30k Legion rules to represent your dudes. The latter in particular would probably suit you pretty well, is super fluffy, and you can take warlords that will put a chapter master to shame.
The Black Legion supplement is a thing you know. (It also sucks).
BTW forgeworld is releasing a book focused on chaos soon. The rumors sound promising.
I also do not agree with your assessment of the power level of the codex. I do agree that it was disappointing and compared to eldar, astra militarum, and space marines it is very one dimensional. However there are a number of units that are fantastic in that codex and your opinion of strong units sounds like you have not read the 7ed rules.
The CSM daemon prince with spell familiar is the best psyker in the game by far and away.
The CSM sorcerers are with spell familiars are top tier psykers and if you think divination is "good" in 7ed then you haven't seen telepathy which is just plain amazing.
Biker units are good on their own but given a nurgle lord on bike with PF/LC, IWND, and a 2+ they are fantastic.
Nurgle spawn are also great as a bike sorcerer, nurgle lord, or jugger AoBF lord escort.
Both of the above units become extremely difficult to kill with the addition of shrouded or invisibility from telepathy.
Oblits are of course good. They are better with mark of nurgle but mark of Tzeentch can be great when combo'd with cursed earth or a grimoire.
All of the daemon engines just became vastly tougher to kill as their IWND and 5+ invulnerable make HP stripping a chore and the new damage chart loves them.
Be'Lakor is a massive enabler who can shroud most your army or make a key unit invisible.
Objective secured plague marines are likely to cause a lot of people headaches.
Typhus with biomancy, abadon, and kharne were all close combat monsters (abadon is the best ICCC beastick in the game). Now that challenges cannot lock them up they got much better.
The baleflamer heldrake is now gone from way undercosted to just a really good value. The hades autocannon one is mediocre.
The black mace found a new home on a biomancy sorcerer on bike, IMO, as if your roll up the right powers he will tear through units with little effort.
Helbrutes actually got a lot better as the dataslates already made them usable, they became a bit more durable, and can now fight on par with most MC.
Problem I have with Chaos is you basically are screwed if you don't want a Nurgle force. Taking anything else puts you into the negatives before the game even begins, because the units aren't good. Which is fine if you play Death Guard or similar Nurgle warband, and gives you the finger if you play let's say Night Lords because Raptors aren't good, Warp Talons are garbage and standard CSM squads are pretty bad too, and a fluffy Night Lords army isn't going to have the typical Nurgle Lord on bike, Plague Marines in Rhinos, etc. and a true Night Lords player isn't going to come up with some excuse to use MoN "counts-as" either.
Familiars are obscenely good. Anything with that beats any psyker most other factions can provide. Psykers aren't just demo factory or bust.
Sacrificial Seargents don't stop your heavy hitters anymore.
Your vehicles are a lot more resiliant now.
A flying DP can't get into CC as quickly, but is much harder to kill now
Codex: Hellturkey is still broken, just not as broken as it used to be.
If it weren't for aesthetics, I'd love to play CSM. Instead of being 1-trick-ponies, they now have lots of potential tools, and look like they'll shine when they get used together.
-- This quote applicable to every edition of CSM players since second or third. They whine more than Sisters players, even though they have less reason to
Unfortunately, I agree completely with the OP. Even when I defended 40k, the chaos dex was my one big complaint. That it doesn't fit the fluff. Back in RT and 2nd I played a khorne army. Now if I did that, I'd be handicapping myself to the point of its not worth it to play. I'm not a tournament guy, but I at least want a good chance of winning.
I don't want dino-bots.
But what if you don't want daemons? If I played Word Bearers then sure, daemons are great. But if I play Night Lords or Iron Warriors, they don't really use daemons.
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MWHistorian wrote: Unfortunately, I agree completely with the OP. Even when I defended 40k, the chaos dex was my one big complaint. That it doesn't fit the fluff. Back in RT and 2nd I played a khorne army. Now if I did that, I'd be handicapping myself to the point of its not worth it to play. I'm not a tournament guy, but I at least want a good chance of winning.
I don't want dino-bots.
Second this, although I like the Forgefiend and Maulerfiend
Eh, I think Kelly does like the CSM and wanted them to be alright, but was scared of making a fanboy super codex (looking at you, Ward). But the fact that chosen don't have models except for those bling-covered single pose atrocities in Dark Vengeance is a big old .
I love that "Forge the Narrative" is showing up in response to my post. I realize it is being used sarcastically, and so it should. This underscores my point wonderfully.
I am a fluff player. I think most CSM players got into CSM for the awesome army fluff. The codex is so far off of the army fluff that we can't forge a narrative!
The CSM codex has some okay units. As a force on the tabletop, you can go nurgle heavy and get fair to middling performance. This isn't really the issue. There were very few complaints about the 3.5 dex. There was only one competative build in that codex, Iron Warriors with a Basilisks, but there werelots of CSM players who dididn't play IW who were fairly happy even though their chosen army had trouble on the board. The reason is their list matched their army fluff. Not perfectly, but enough that we could pretend.
I WANT to forge the freaking narrative, GW. I want to represent the foul Death Guard traitor legion attacking the heroic defenders of an Agri world. I want to be the bad guy wrestler the good guys have to struggle to defeat. I want to call daemons from the warp or ally with local traitor forces. I can't. It doesn't work in the rules GW wrote. They want us to Forge the Narrative, as the nemesis, the main antagonist of the Imperious every which way I turn I am prevented from doing so in any way that doesn't become rediculous, a violation of the rules or so hobbled by the rules that it's entirely dysfunctional.
Toastaster wrote: Eh, I think Kelly does like the CSM and wanted them to be alright, but was scared of making a fanboy super codex (looking at you, Ward). But the fact that chosen don't have models except for those bling-covered single pose atrocities in Dark Vengeance is a big old .
Scared of... you mean like how he was so scared of making SW and Eldar stupid op and blatant fandexes?
To say nothing of the fact that if you DON'T want to play the foul Death Guard, you either make up "counts-as" reasons for taking the Mark of Nurgle anyways, or you languish in mediocrity because the units you'll take aren't as good as playing Death Guard.
I agree with virtually everything else you said. What attracted me to Chaos (in 2nd edition) was the idea of being a twisted, corrupted, fallen Space Marine. Daemons could feth off, I wasn't interested in them and outside of I think one unit of Plaguebearers for my Plague Marines I never fielded them.
I wanted the Traitor Legions and all the dark mirror imagery that went with it; I wanted the chilling feeling of an Imperial world watching as what looked like Space Marines walked towards them, only to notice something off just before their "saviors" opened fire, wiping them out; I wanted the savage and bestial imagery of a baroque clad Space Marine looking down on a bloody, dying Guardsman who through his one good eye asks "Why?" thinking that he's been betrayed, only for the Chaos Marine to say in a Darth Vader-esque voice "Where is your god now?" before crushing the man's throat with an armored foot and ordering his minions to kill any living thing they find. The imagery of a Chaos Marine in a duel to the death with a loyalist Marine, light versus dark, each a mirror image of the other, the loyal Marine confronted with the ultimate truth - that this was once what he is, and this is what he could become, the Chaos Marine facing his own reflection of what could have been if he had chosen differently 10,000 years ago, and at the same time loathing and regretting it. Chaos for me was always at the same time the ultimate evil and a tragedy.
That's why I played Chaos, not because of daemons or Plague Marines.
It's sad that some people react to our complaints about CSM's poor state with comments that basically amount to "Don't play your own build, go for the single decent one" or "Use another Codex to uplift yours". Most of us would rather like to be able to play a variety of CSM builds that are solid rather than doing that.
I have choose chaos due freedom that it offers in both modelling and fluff wise.
Chaos can still pull out several not bad tactics. I don't hate this codex but I don't love it. I am dissapointed with hell talons, and usless mutilators.
You can always make squad of 35 cultists, give them full khorne set, hide them behind land rider and then charge. You would have aroud 140 attacks. Imagine rolling 140 dices.
Or you can create cheap ass chaos lord with murder sword and guide your enemy commander as you please.
My IW would use daemon engines but not actual daemons, marks and mutations are out of the question as well, and by building a fluff build I'm gimping myself.
But the biggest issue is they don't feel like IW just generic csm, is a little flavour really so much to ask.
hobojebus wrote: My IW would use daemon engines but not actual daemons, marks and mutations are out of the question as well, and by building a fluff build I'm gimping myself.
But the biggest issue is they don't feel like IW just generic csm, is a little flavour really so much to ask.
Hmm... IW using Imperial Fists (there's some irony) with CSM allies (Servitor-cultists and Daemon Engines)?
-- This quote applicable to every edition of CSM players since second or third. They whine more than Sisters players, even though they have less reason to
It only seems that way, because there are more than five of them in the world.
I like Daemons in my army, it fits with my personal fluff.
However if you tell me that my codex needs those daemons to be competitive then what is the point of it existing? We might as well go back to the old Chaos book and have Daemons and Marines in the same army. In fact we may as well play WHFB Hordes of Chaos. Daemons are an elite choice if your warlord is a marine and marines are an elite choice if your warlord is a daemon.
The simple fact that our codex is mostly 'Go Nurgle or go home' does not help either. People want to play as 1ksons, World Eaters, Emperors Children and not just the Death Guard.
It also doesn't help with all these books about the Horus Heresy. Seeing as GW have made them about as relevant to the Chaos players as the Star Wars Expanded Universe. People can read about the Ultramarines and then go play as the Ultramarine Chapter in 40k. However people who read about the Night Lords can't. You cannot field a Night Lords force using the codex, sure you can take raptors, but what about your troop choice? Regular marines and cultists fill our troop slot, unlike the White Scars who can take bikes or the Blood Angels who can take Assault Marines. Sure the Blood Angels codex might be poor at the moment, but at least you can play a fluffy force. We can't do that and our codex is not much better either.
Kirby: [Turns around in spinny chair. He is wearing regal power armour, though it is made from cardboard, with a flag draped over one knee. He is wearing a pair of glasses, one lens of which has been covered with red paper]
That's Chapter Master Lord Kirbious Astratum, Regent of Terra, Castellan of the Segmentum Solar, Bane of the Dark Gods, Scourge of the Xenos to you, lowly scrub.
Assistant: I'm... sorry, forgive me, Lord Chapter Master, Sir, Bane of scrubs, Segmentum Solar Lord [panicked rambling continues]
Kibry: [Rolls eyes] Get to the point. [Begins petting a model of Marneus Calgar on his lap]
Assistant: Well, Sir, Chaos Heldrake sales have reached 150% of their quota.
Kirby: WHAT?!
Assistant: Sir, I said -
Kirby: I know what you said, boy! But how?
Assistant: Well Lord Chapter Master of the Segmentum Terra Solar, Bane of -
Kirby: Well?
Assistant: It would appear people actually like Chaos.
Kirby: [His giant, power-armoured hand crushes the Marneus Calgar in his hand. He sighs.] They don't make them like they used to.
Assistant: Well, that's just it sir. We make them.
Kirby: Well make them better! With robots! Giant robots! And then sell them for an additional one hundred - no - two hundred percent profit!
Assistant: [Closes his eyes, grimacing] You're a genius, SIr.
Kirby: Of course I am. [Swiftly grabs another Calgar off his desk, beginning to pet it again.] Now, what were you saying about this "Chaos" lark?
Assistant: Yes, well, it appears people actually like to play Chaos Space Marines. However, we've been receiving a lot of complaints that in order to remain "competitive", players have to buy Heldrakes. They say they're the only good option in the list.
Kirby: Well that's preposterous! They have Thousand Sons! They're AP three. Three! How can they argue with that? And they have two wounds! That army has a lot going for it.
Assistant: Actually, they don't have that any more. They find that they die too easily to small arms fire to be worth bringing.
Kirby: But they have Noise Marines!
Assistant: "Too niche, a little overcosted, not effective enough."
Kirby: Berserkers?
Assistant: They refuse to bring them. They say close combat is dead this edition.
Kirby: Ridiculous. Do they not take a balance of units? A bit of everything?
Assistant: Well, no Sir Chapter Master Of the Terrible Astratum thingy. They take mass shooting because it's so effective.
Kirby: Nonsense. They must play like us, surely?
Assistant: No Sir.
Kirby: Well... isn't that something. Say, where are you getting this information?
Assistant: Why, the Internet Sir.
Kirby: Well shut it off. It's heretical.
Assistant: But sir, they have lots of ideas and feedback on how we can improve the game. We can't just ignore them, can we?
Kirby: Ah, but that is the beauty of the Emperor's truth, young scrub. We can.
Assistant: That doesn't seem very responsible of us, Sir.
Kirby: They're just fans. What do they know?
Assistant: [Goes to speak, but is cut off]
Kirby: Exactly. Now go and raise all our prices by an additional one percent. Oh, make sure that's five for Chaos Marines. And nerf that Heldrapes thing while you're at it.
Assistant: Sir, they want Legion Warband rules and Cult Terminators and -
Kirby: Not listening!
Assistant: Oh, and the first draft of the new Space Marines Codex is ready to be reviewed, but playtesters think -
Kirby: Print it.
Assistant: What?
Kirby: Drop the points value of everything by fifty and release it.
Assistant: But Whirlwinds will cost negative five points!
Kirby: Add a line about finding a load of Whirlwinds in a Manufactorum somewhere, raise the price of the kit by twenty percent, and get ready to sell Whirlwinds. Do you think this is some kind of game, scrub?
Assistant: I - erm - no, Sir. I'll get right on... all of that.
Kirby: Oh, and have that Ward chap promoted. I really like his stuff.
SarisKhan wrote: It's sad that some people react to our complaints about CSM's poor state with comments that basically amount to "Don't play your own build, go for the single decent one" or "Use another Codex to uplift yours". Most of us would rather like to be able to play a variety of CSM builds that are solid rather than doing that.
B-but we had codex 3.5 and Heldrakes so we should stop complaining
-- This quote applicable to every edition of CSM players since second or third. They whine more than Sisters players, even though they have less reason to
Unless you play Tzeentch (I like to joke that it's how Chaos players live. We are the angry grumpy marines and we will always complain he he he)
The only codex to perfectly merge fluff and rules.
So glad I still have a copy.
I hear your pain here, OP.
Chaos was the reason I got into 40k in the first place. Granted I played from Rogue Trader, but it was the 2nd ed Codex that got me in properly.
The awesome characters, the epic miniatures, the fluff that made these guys the main antagonists.
This just doesn't exist anymore.
The awesome character? Only Abaddon is great and exactly how he should be, but his model is nearly 20 years old. It's too small. By comparison, considering he's supposed to be much taller than a regular Terminator, I'm thinking of converting the Horus model into Abaddon (just got to find a sword and topknot).
The epic miniatures aren't so great anymore. Most of them are horribly dated or just horrible.
And finally, the fluff. Most of it is still kick @$$, but it's not represented appropriately on the table top.
The closest we get is using Crimson Slaughter as Night Lords and the shoddy Black Legion codex.
As it stands right now, I don't want to field Chaos in 7th ed. It has none of what makes Chaos awesome.
Toastaster wrote: Eh, I think Kelly does like the CSM and wanted them to be alright, but was scared of making a fanboy super codex (looking at you, Ward). But the fact that chosen don't have models except for those bling-covered single pose atrocities in Dark Vengeance is a big old .
Scared of... you mean like how he was so scared of making SW and Eldar stupid op and blatant fandexes?
Yeah, looking through a friends Space Wolves codex they now look quite good, especially those Long Fangs! and whats with the way everything has 'Wolf' in the name, I get they're Space Wolves, but come on...
SarisKhan wrote: It's sad that some people react to our complaints about CSM's poor state with comments that basically amount to "Don't play your own build, go for the single decent one" or "Use another Codex to uplift yours". Most of us would rather like to be able to play a variety of CSM builds that are solid rather than doing that.
I don't find it sad, just irritating and patronising, mainly because the people who give the cold shoulder to our complaints are the same people who play Eldar, Tau or the Latest loyalists, so they can't really say anything imo, unless they played the codex imo..
For me I made my own warband, and I want to represent my warband in some sort of Night Lord tactics as it would reflect my warband in the best way.. But the choice (the word that GW loves to use) I cannot take (oh the irony GW ).
My personal gripe was that we did not receive Dreadclaw drop pods, I waited a good amount of time since the 4th edition codex (the codex I started with and not the 3.5 golden boy that every bangs on about ) and I got dinobots.. whilst I wanted more daemon machines, this to me did not meet personal satisfaction tbh.
For me the codex works well and reflects the background of the army... In games of kill team, I mean look at it, most of these abilities that CSM can choose is very cool and very in depth for its army in games of kill team, a good example of this was the Boon chart, now as a wargame rule its pointless unless its on a warlord, why? because it bogs the game down but as a skirmish element such as kill team, its really good.
And that's the problem with this codex, the codex is meant to represent every squad being unique, however as a wargame its just too clunky. To me the CSM codex is a prime example of GW trying to be a skirmish game yet a wargame at the same time with the main element of being an RPG with their ultimate "forge the narrative" lines..
Untill they realise that if they want to reflect both legion and warbands then this unfortunately will not change tbh, hence why I'm going more over my Orks now... just as many conversion opportunities yet we may get a very good codex along with it .
Warmaster Phthisis wrote: I love that "Forge the Narrative" is showing up in response to my post. I realize it is being used sarcastically, and so it should. This underscores my point wonderfully.
I am a fluff player. I think most CSM players got into CSM for the awesome army fluff. The codex is so far off of the army fluff that we can't forge a narrative!
The CSM codex has some okay units. As a force on the tabletop, you can go nurgle heavy and get fair to middling performance. This isn't really the issue. There were very few complaints about the 3.5 dex. There was only one competative build in that codex, Iron Warriors with a Basilisks, but there werelots of CSM players who dididn't play IW who were fairly happy even though their chosen army had trouble on the board. The reason is their list matched their army fluff. Not perfectly, but enough that we could pretend.
I WANT to forge the freaking narrative, GW. I want to represent the foul Death Guard traitor legion attacking the heroic defenders of an Agri world. I want to be the bad guy wrestler the good guys have to struggle to defeat. I want to call daemons from the warp or ally with local traitor forces. I can't. It doesn't work in the rules GW wrote. They want us to Forge the Narrative, as the nemesis, the main antagonist of the Imperious every which way I turn I am prevented from doing so in any way that doesn't become rediculous, a violation of the rules or so hobbled by the rules that it's entirely dysfunctional.
Actually there were two. Slaaneshi bomb hurt.
When I was new, I bounced around armies blindly. We had a Nid player, a Tau player, an ork player, a SW player, and a DA player that had a few IG. Me? I had some SM and some CSM but no real army. I noticed nobody played Chaos and so I flipped open a CSM codex (I had a 3.5). I fell in love, flipping through lexicanum and even 40k wiki. Most of all, Tzeentch captured me, caught me in a spell so to speak . I became intrigued, so fascinated by the tragic tale of the Thousand Sons and their general tale. Well, turns out that 3rd, 3.5, 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th don't really like Tzeentch much and absolutely despise Thousand Sons ha ha ha . So here I am, wishing so desperately to field a Thousand Son army but I never do not only because it takes too long (ancient models that you can only buy online that require kit bashes) and is excessively pricey and, more importantly, the rules are so horrid that the only way to play a fair game is if my friends limit themselves so drastically that they can only field a small few horrid units and even then, oftentimes, they have the edge. When 6th leaked of marks, I got excited. At last, a way for Tzeentch to not be stuck with models that probably weren't bad. Turns out that Tzeenth is probably the worst mark to go for in basically all situations. Sorcerers? Ours are the worst. Cults? Ours are the worst. Marks? Ours are the worst. Icons? Congrats on getting one of the worst! It's a bloody joke. The worst part? Even Black Legion players are often dissapointed. I've seen many that want to use their iconic tactic, spreahead assaults with reliable terminator deepstrikes. And want to know what we can't do? Accurate DS. Even the Black Legion can't even be represented that well. The only thing this codex is good at representing is Death Guard and even then it is flawed. I love my warband but it was built more because I couldn't make a Thousand Son army. Even then, darn it, my warband is literally just support for an elite corps of Thousand Sons really. There is only one positive for Tzeentch forces and it's the DP of Tzeentch and who knows with the new rules if its even worth it.
I WANT to make a tale but GW won't let me. I want to see the return of Sisters that fight with righteous fury, I want to see a new ork codex that charges with mass hordes clashing into a force of Guardsman that desperately fight each other.... I want to see these things. I want to make stories by what happens in the game, tell a story of MY DUDES. I want to see some of my champions die, some become spawn, some ascend to daemonhood. I want to see good intentions become corrupted, destroyed and twisted. I want a few that truly espouse the positive aspect of Chaos but drown them out in so many twisted versions to reflect the sliver of hope that is drowned in doom. I want Legion traits. Not named that way but a grand premise. Such as, Successors of ______, Sons of ______, etc. Names to represent warbands that, although often fractured from their original legion, still hold to those same military tactics. I want to see twisted technology, magic that barely is technology, fleshy machines, machines that have become horrible sights, things that can even terrify Marines, frighten them with something so horrific it is unimaginable. I love Chaos Daemons, I'll say that there. But I loved them more when they were elite terrors. I loved it when the way you brought them into the field was by sacrifice, possession, and summonings. They were strong, far mightier than mortals, but they needed us, depended upon us to appear on the field. The paranoia that at any moment some individual might just twist, flesh, bones, everything tearing apart. Sorcerers of might that show their disregard to the restrictions of the Imperium to truly master their psychic might.
Even more than that, I wish there was a Lost and the Damned codex. GW says there's not enough different about them to warrant them having their own codex. So how is that different than saying CSM should just use SM (we already do because it fits many legions and warbands far more), or, better yet, SM, BA, SW, and DA. So you mean to tell me there is really enough of a difference to make 4 codices that mostly use the same weapons, the same points, and the same models? What do you see in the Lost and the Damned? I see mercenaries, corrupted Xenos races, I see traitorous guardsman, corrupted vehicles and newly fallen ones, daemonic machines, rogue psykers, sacrificial groups, psyker covens and thralls that use up the lives of one another to cast spells, possessions, mutant onslaughts, beastmen, gibbering madmen, indentured civilians fighting against the abusive rulers. I see people fighting for freedom for good or bad that fall into desperation or rage and side with the forces of Chaos for freedom yet their freedom comes around to punish them so often. I see small forces of CSM leading them not out of respect but to use them as fodder, shields. That is the true face of chaos. Lost and the Damned mortal servants, an elite core of CSM, and a few summoning rifts to the warp to bring more reinforcements or plunge the world into chaos hoping to ascend.
But it's fine. We can't have legions rules but SM can, we can't get things and should be happy with the codex because of the broken heldrake. I played the thing for 2 games then got upset with how good even a single baledrake could be and never brought it out again. I'd trade that for "Legion" tactics. People say shut up your codex is good, what? There's hardly any good picks. You can count them. Or they say, but you have so many options. Yeah except most of the marks just suck. And they killed undivided princes and made it so the warp has no minor chaos gods cause why not. What the heck?
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Whiskered wrote: You don't have to be nurgle exclusive. It is possible to play all nurgle.
Bikers are actually better with Icon of excess and mark of slaneesh than with mark of nurgle and are cheaper.
You can have hard to kill tzneech warpsmith, give him also sigil of corupition and there you go.
You can always use 20 CSM as very resilient cannon fodder which can shoot back plenty of stuff.
Cool except the warpsmith costs a ton, isn't that good, has few options, and you just marked it to only give it a 3++ despite SM easily getting that. Oh and try to find a unit to ft him in.
CSM suck so it is a waste, bikers are actually arguably better with mark of nurgle solely as transport for a biker lord and even with all of this SM bikers are better. Nurgle is always good, Slaanesh is situationally good, Khorne is rarely good, and Tzeentch is never good.
First off, you don't know suffering if you aren't an Ork fanatic. Seriously, I know they're about to get a new book in a couple of weeks, but THREE new editions of the game have come out since their last book.
Now then... Maybe you're just playing other WAAC lists, at which point you shouldn't feel bad about doing it yourself. But if not, you can win with a more normal list. Just run things like squads of CSM in Rhinos with a couple of melta guns or plasma guns (or for fun, Chosen or Havocs for lots of melta, plasma, or flamers on the go). Use a Vindicator or Predator to blow apart the opposing army. Defiler's still pretty fun, IMO. I use all those with my Iron Warriors and it works fine. Heck, I even use Helbrutes and they're pretty reasonable.
You can also tack on some Daemon allies for more fun, especially with them summoning more of their lads. If you're a Marked army, that makes even more sense. For Word Bearers, it's incredibly "fluffy."
ErikSetzer wrote: First off, you don't know suffering if you aren't an Ork fanatic. Seriously, I know they're about to get a new book in a couple of weeks, but THREE new editions of the game have come out since their last book.
Now then... Maybe you're just playing other WAAC lists, at which point you shouldn't feel bad about doing it yourself. But if not, you can win with a more normal list. Just run things like squads of CSM in Rhinos with a couple of melta guns or plasma guns (or for fun, Chosen or Havocs for lots of melta, plasma, or flamers on the go). Use a Vindicator or Predator to blow apart the opposing army. Defiler's still pretty fun, IMO. I use all those with my Iron Warriors and it works fine. Heck, I even use Helbrutes and they're pretty reasonable.
You can also tack on some Daemon allies for more fun, especially with them summoning more of their lads. If you're a Marked army, that makes even more sense. For Word Bearers, it's incredibly "fluffy."
To be fair, DE win that one and Sisters best all but DE for the record. Also was Orks a late 4th codex or something? It also doesn't help that 6th edition was only.... 2 years long.
It's more the problem that you know everything is inferior. Chosen are Sternguard-, CSM are SM-, Vindicators and Preds are SM-, and Defilers are a schizo vehicle that pays for everything but can't do much. It's a book that largely comes down to being SM- and it restricts your freedoms and never try to make a Tzeentchian force or you will truly suffer. On a humerous note, I actually just started building Orks
Also does anybody know how to find a 2nd edition CSM codex? kiddin'
BTW forgeworld is releasing a book focused on chaos soon. The rumors sound promising.
I also do not agree with your assessment of the power level of the codex. I do agree that it was disappointing and compared to eldar, astra militarum, and space marines it is very one dimensional. However there are a number of units that are fantastic in that codex and your opinion of strong units sounds like you have not read the 7ed rules.
The CSM daemon prince with spell familiar is the best psyker in the game by far and away.
The CSM sorcerers are with spell familiars are top tier psykers and if you think divination is "good" in 7ed then you haven't seen telepathy which is just plain amazing.
Biker units are good on their own but given a nurgle lord on bike with PF/LC, IWND, and a 2+ they are fantastic.
Nurgle spawn are also great as a bike sorcerer, nurgle lord, or jugger AoBF lord escort.
Both of the above units become extremely difficult to kill with the addition of shrouded or invisibility from telepathy.
Oblits are of course good. They are better with mark of nurgle but mark of Tzeentch can be great when combo'd with cursed earth or a grimoire.
All of the daemon engines just became vastly tougher to kill as their IWND and 5+ invulnerable make HP stripping a chore and the new damage chart loves them.
Be'Lakor is a massive enabler who can shroud most your army or make a key unit invisible.
Objective secured plague marines are likely to cause a lot of people headaches.
Typhus with biomancy, abadon, and kharne were all close combat monsters (abadon is the best ICCC beastick in the game). Now that challenges cannot lock them up they got much better.
The baleflamer heldrake is now gone from way undercosted to just a really good value. The hades autocannon one is mediocre.
The black mace found a new home on a biomancy sorcerer on bike, IMO, as if your roll up the right powers he will tear through units with little effort.
Helbrutes actually got a lot better as the dataslates already made them usable, they became a bit more durable, and can now fight on par with most MC.
None of these units are as powerful as you make them out to be, and a couple of your suggestions are even illegal (typhus with biomancy, nurgle spawn + jugger lord). You accuse him of not reading 7e before judging csm. I don't think you've read the codex before judging csm. The most glaring error, however, is that you think Tyrant's Legion in any way is the "answer" to what people want out of traitor legions and traitor guard.
Also traitor legions =/= Red Corsairs. Heck, that was even before their fall.
Also Oblits suck with mark if combo's. The mark of Tzeentch can only give you a 3++ at most.
Be'lakor is more of a CD thing honestly. Abaddon lost his non dp and non khorne flaw, technically Skarbrand is more killy, and most of the units are mediocre at best. Humerously many liked to use challenges for big solo killy members to wait a turn then slaughter the second. The hades is a bit below mediocre although the baleflamer deserved a nerf. The biomancy sorcereer sucks because it isn't really high ap. It's liked on DP because of high base damage plus ap.
Helbrutes gained and lost. It just means more glancing will be the solution.
Since before I bought my first CSM model, my desire has always been to play an army of Death Guard legion marines combined with their traitor guard auxiliaries with a little daemon summoning for flavor. How much more NARRATIVE can you get than that?
I got a bit of that in 6th but the rules for taking cult units as troops was very restrictive. I was pretty happy when I heard that Unbound and Daemonology was coming. I'd lose Objective Secured and so my list would be hobbled but at least I could take and play how I had always wanted...
Astra Militarum and CSM are Come the Apocalypse now. They used to be Allies of Convenience. So now if my Plague Marines and their auxiliary troops get within 6" of each other they might just stand there and derp for a turn.
For some reason Chaos Sorcerors, who practically live in the warp and commune with demonic entities on a daily basis, are just as good at summoning daemons to their aid as anyone might be. An Ultramarines Librarian knows as much about summoning a pack of nurglings as a Sorceror or Daemon Prince of Nurgle. How am I supposed to take that seriously?
Only 12" at deployment IIRC, might be wrong however.
You are correct! Still, you can't be 6" from eachother without problems occuring, you have to deploy 12" from eachother... perhaps most insulting of all is the fact that it makes far more sense for a CSM to be in a unit of traitor guardsman than a SM commander to be in a unit of guardsman.
Only 12" at deployment IIRC, might be wrong however.
You are correct! Still, you can't be 6" from eachother without problems occuring, you have to deploy 12" from eachother... perhaps most insulting of all is the fact that it makes far more sense for a CSM to be in a unit of traitor guardsman than a SM commander to be in a unit of guardsman.
You are BBs with the Renegade militia from Forgeworld.
The problem is that the renegade militia is quite possibly the worst army in the game.
Only 12" at deployment IIRC, might be wrong however.
You are correct! Still, you can't be 6" from eachother without problems occuring, you have to deploy 12" from eachother... perhaps most insulting of all is the fact that it makes far more sense for a CSM to be in a unit of traitor guardsman than a SM commander to be in a unit of guardsman.
You are BBs with the Renegade militia from Forgeworld.
The problem is that the renegade militia is quite possibly the worst army in the game.
Ha ha ha. You know I honestly thought of asking if I could play their rules against somebody just for fun. Maybe give me a few extra points. That's a match I wouldn't even mind losing.
Besides that, it still has no Slaanesh or Tzeentch forces
(maybe they will come out with genestealer cult rules) just wish you didn't have to roll ld so much and then book keep. I get it in concept but it fails in execution
ErikSetzer wrote: First off, you don't know suffering if you aren't an Ork fanatic. Seriously, I know they're about to get a new book in a couple of weeks, but THREE new editions of the game have come out since their last book.
To be fair, DE win that one and Sisters best all but DE for the record. Also was Orks a late 4th codex or something? It also doesn't help that 6th edition was only.... 2 years long.
Yeah, was about to say. DE were the first or second 3rd edition codex and then they were the 3rd to last 5th edition codex. Ages, ages I waited for a new DE book. Well 12 years. Kids graduate high school faster than that.
Orks were the last 4th edition codex IIRC, designed basically for 5th and the 5th edition starter box. The ork codex on the other hand is 6 years old.
DE were 12 years, SoB haven't really had a true codex since Witch Hunters and that wasn't even entirely their own. Also, the only difference between the wait is orks had to wait one extra year and also began with a far better and more inspired codex compared to two codices that are rather uninspired.
Edit: On further examination, it seems like waiting 5-6 years for a new codex seems to be rather standard fare for most armies. There are always drastic exceptions but it's rather standard.
Warmaster Phthisis wrote:I WANT to forge the freaking narrative, GW. I want to represent the foul Death Guard traitor legion attacking the heroic defenders of an Agri world. I want to be the bad guy wrestler the good guys have to struggle to defeat. I want to call daemons from the warp or ally with local traitor forces. I can't. It doesn't work in the rules GW wrote. They want us to Forge the Narrative, as the nemesis, the main antagonist of the Imperious every which way I turn I am prevented from doing so in any way that doesn't become rediculous, a violation of the rules or so hobbled by the rules that it's entirely dysfunctional.
I have no idea what you are even saying here. You can ally daemons AND/OR summon them from the warp...in fact your daemon prince is the single best summoner in the entire game.
You can ally with local traitor forces or any kind from freshly fallen SM chapters to imperial knights to imperial guard. How does it make more sense for anyone to turn their backs on a CSM? I know if I were a traitor guardsman I definitely would be wary of the guy who thinks it is funny to torture me to death. On the other hand the only real restrictions the come the apoc alliance gives is setup within 12", don't get within 6" or roll d6, and no powers off on the ally. Heck they are still scoring even.
StarTrotter wrote:Also traitor legions =/= Red Corsairs. Heck, that was even before their fall.
Also Oblits suck with mark if combo's. The mark of Tzeentch can only give you a 3++ at most.
Be'lakor is more of a CD thing honestly. Abaddon lost his non dp and non khorne flaw, technically Skarbrand is more killy, and most of the units are mediocre at best. Humerously many liked to use challenges for big solo killy members to wait a turn then slaughter the second. The hades is a bit below mediocre although the baleflamer deserved a nerf. The biomancy sorcereer sucks because it isn't really high ap. It's liked on DP because of high base damage plus ap.
Helbrutes gained and lost. It just means more glancing will be the solution.
True however that represents a a mixed IG/traitor chapter army. Which was something the OP indicated he wanted. If you want traitor legions you could always play a 30K army in 40K, use SM rules for a freshly fallen SM host (ie not corrupted much yet), or accept a reduced power level to use the items you want. Heck if you use unbound you can just take whatever you want.
Oblits with a 3++ for the cost of a power that you would want to go off on your summoning daemon anyways are a bad thing? Not to mention no scatter...
Helbrutes just plain gained. What did they loose as compared to 6ed?
The nice thing about a biomancy sorcerer is that his endurance power is great on his bike or spawn unit. He also gets AP2 from smash if he gets iron arm.
I'm glad to see that "white knight" has lost so much meatning as to be thought of as appropriately used here in this context. It was a crappy term used by trolls to begin with any way.
Warmaster Phthisis wrote:I WANT to forge the freaking narrative, GW. I want to represent the foul Death Guard traitor legion attacking the heroic defenders of an Agri world. I want to be the bad guy wrestler the good guys have to struggle to defeat. I want to call daemons from the warp or ally with local traitor forces. I can't. It doesn't work in the rules GW wrote. They want us to Forge the Narrative, as the nemesis, the main antagonist of the Imperious every which way I turn I am prevented from doing so in any way that doesn't become rediculous, a violation of the rules or so hobbled by the rules that it's entirely dysfunctional.
I have no idea what you are even saying here. You can ally daemons AND/OR summon them from the warp...in fact your daemon prince is the single best summoner in the entire game.
Or just play Daemons to begin with, and ignore the whiny little marines
But yeah, I really don't think they're going to stop CSM players from allying with Daemons.
While there are legitimate white knights on dakka who will irrationally defend GW tooth and nail from even the slightest criticism (why is beyond me, perhaps they're being paid to do so?), Melissa is not one of them.
Kain wrote: While there are legitimate white knights on dakka who will irrationally defend GW tooth and nail from even the slightest criticism (why is beyond me, perhaps they're being paid to do so?), Melissa is not one of them.
Not even sure if that was aimed at Melissa (as per myself I just couldn't resist having some fun with SM = Knights in space)
liquidjoshi wrote:Ok, how do I play my fluffy Night Lords then?
Hellbrutes and Daemons?
Yeah, get real. God, these white knights...
The funny thing about night lords is (and iron warriors for that matter) is that they are not really "chaos" space marines. They are SM who fought on Horus' side but have not fallen to chaos and warp influence/mutations to any appreciable extent. In many ways these warpless SM are much better fit by their loyalist cousins than they are by their chaos tainted brothers. If I want to portray a night lords raiding party I would use ravenguard rules which do a great job of portraying an infiltrating SM force.
Also I think you might want to look up white knight as GW is not a woman and I would not invest in it. Or do you mean to say I am a chess piece?
Melissia wrote:I'm glad to see that "white knight" has lost so much meatning as to be thought of as appropriately used here in this context. It was a crappy term used by trolls to begin with any way.
Warmaster Phthisis wrote:I WANT to forge the freaking narrative, GW. I want to represent the foul Death Guard traitor legion attacking the heroic defenders of an Agri world. I want to be the bad guy wrestler the good guys have to struggle to defeat. I want to call daemons from the warp or ally with local traitor forces. I can't. It doesn't work in the rules GW wrote. They want us to Forge the Narrative, as the nemesis, the main antagonist of the Imperious every which way I turn I am prevented from doing so in any way that doesn't become rediculous, a violation of the rules or so hobbled by the rules that it's entirely dysfunctional.
I have no idea what you are even saying here. You can ally daemons AND/OR summon them from the warp...in fact your daemon prince is the single best summoner in the entire game.
Or just play Daemons to begin with, and ignore the whiny little marines
But yeah, I really don't think they're going to stop CSM players from allying with Daemons.
They are battle brothers. So they definitely don't mean to stop it and appear to encourage CSM to pull daemons from the warp. Makes sense seeing as they are "chaos" space marines.
Like many terms, White Knight has been reappropriated to new and broader definitions.
The current most popular definition refers to anyone who defends an unpopular position for the sake of defending it or seem to have a personal investment into something relatively unimportant and thus defend it with far more passion than most people would bother with. Such as those who appear to take personal offence to anyone who criticizes GW and write up long, impassioned paragraphs about how GW is secretly more competent than it appears to be and that we're all wrong for doubting it's wisdom or considering it's design team and board of directors to be a bunch of paint chip eating, glue sniffing monkeys with an ice pick lodged in their cerebrums.
GW needs relentless and dogged critics to point out every flaw they make to the world until their finances tank enough for them to change course or die and have it's assets be bought out by a more intelligent company more than it needs fanboys who somehow missed the stagnating or even declining consumer base.
GW's Order of the White Knights will only doom the game to a continually stagnating and slowly declining playerbase in the long run. GW needs tough love, Black Knight level tough love.
Yes yes, terms develop... the words 'moron', 'idiot', or 'imbecile' used to be the medically accepted term for patients with down syndrome. Heck, being gay used to mean you were happy...
StarTrotter wrote: It's kind of odd. They kind of suck at summoning daemons unless you give them a certain upgrade that then laughs circles around them.
Daemon Princes don't suck at it. Daemon Princes with Spell Familiars are BETTER at it than actual Chaos Daemon armies.
Kyutaru wrote: Yes yes, terms develop... the words 'moron', 'idiot', or 'imbecile' used to be the medically accepted term for patients with down syndrome. Heck, being gay used to mean you were happy...
StarTrotter wrote: It's kind of odd. They kind of suck at summoning daemons unless you give them a certain upgrade that then laughs circles around them.
Daemon Princes don't suck at it. Daemon Princes with Spell Familiars are BETTER at it than actual Chaos Daemon armies.
That's the upgrade I was mentioning
Why are we all so interested in how words change . Still, I find it far more entertaining to see how the internet changes words. Usually offensive ones by basically abusing them until they mean almost nothing.
Dont DP's have to align and therefore take a chaos psychic power and not get summon (only sacrifice, and maybe possession as a last resort). If you want best summoner, go with prophet of the voices from crimson slaughter, only unaligned daemon sorcerer in the game that can roll on daemonology.
kingleir wrote: Dont DP's have to align and therefore take a chaos psychic power and not get summon (only sacrifice, and maybe possession as a last resort). If you want best summoner, go with prophet of the voices from crimson slaughter, only unaligned daemon sorcerer in the game that can roll on daemonology.
They have to take one but they can still roll on it and give up their spell for the Primaris I believe.
Warmaster Phthisis wrote: Isn't an Eldar Farseer with a ghosthelm the best daemon summoner in the game?
The best counter to an Eldar Farseer with malefic is smashing them upside the head with their codex opened to any page detailing the Eldar's relationship with Chaos.
Warmaster Phthisis wrote: Isn't an Eldar Farseer with a ghosthelm the best daemon summoner in the game?
Only if you want their unit to take a bunch of wounds, them to loose a bunch of your warp charges, and for the psyker to loose some of his powers through the game.
The best malefic caster in the game is a ML3 CSM daemon prince with spell familiar. Yes as it turns out humorous imps make you a better sorcerer...go figure.
I've decided to use an old unpainted Skaven assassin model I bought years ago, to be my official Spell Familiar in any games. I don't play Fantasy and just bought the model cause I loved the design. SO I have my own rat man imp.
liquidjoshi wrote:Ok, how do I play my fluffy Night Lords then?
Hellbrutes and Daemons?
Yeah, get real. God, these white knights...
The funny thing about night lords is (and iron warriors for that matter) is that they are not really "chaos" space marines. They are SM who fought on Horus' side but have not fallen to chaos and warp influence/mutations to any appreciable extent. In many ways these warpless SM are much better fit by their loyalist cousins than they are by their chaos tainted brothers. If I want to portray a night lords raiding party I would use ravenguard rules which do a great job of portraying an infiltrating SM force.
This might be the most wrong thing I've ever read on dakka, which is saying something. Seriously, read the night lords triliogy. If anything about that says "meh, loyalist is close enough" to to you then you probably need to see a psychiatrist. The bleeding eyes sustain themselves by eating the flesh of their prey for crying out loud. Its this sort of wild misunderstanding about traitor legions that leads to the dismal of all complaints. "meh just play a different army, its practically the same thing" pffffft. Its like saying "you want tau who are known for shooting guns? just play tac marines, they have guns too".
Melissia wrote:I'm glad to see that "white knight" has lost so much meatning as to be thought of as appropriately used here in this context. It was a crappy term used by trolls to begin with any way.
Warmaster Phthisis wrote:I WANT to forge the freaking narrative, GW. I want to represent the foul Death Guard traitor legion attacking the heroic defenders of an Agri world. I want to be the bad guy wrestler the good guys have to struggle to defeat. I want to call daemons from the warp or ally with local traitor forces. I can't. It doesn't work in the rules GW wrote. They want us to Forge the Narrative, as the nemesis, the main antagonist of the Imperious every which way I turn I am prevented from doing so in any way that doesn't become rediculous, a violation of the rules or so hobbled by the rules that it's entirely dysfunctional.
I have no idea what you are even saying here. You can ally daemons AND/OR summon them from the warp...in fact your daemon prince is the single best summoner in the entire game.
Or just play Daemons to begin with, and ignore the whiny little marines
But yeah, I really don't think they're going to stop CSM players from allying with Daemons.
They are battle brothers. So they definitely don't mean to stop it and appear to encourage CSM to pull daemons from the warp. Makes sense seeing as they are "chaos" space marines.
They are battle brothers minus the best benefits of battle brothers, namely joining each others' squads. Chaos sorcerers are no better at pulling demons from the warp than an ultra marine so I don't get where you're going there. Also where in the world do people get the idea that princes are the best psykers? You know they cost over like 300 points right? for a bunch of offensive melee stats they can't really use while trying to be a psyker. Additionally some of the worst durability for an MC in the game. But you may be right, they could be awesome, and that's why everyone is clamoring to take csm princes.... oh wait... no one takes them. 'cause they overpriced for anythng they'll ever do. Minus bel'akor, he rocks, but you might as well take him with demons instead of csm. Additionally csm don't generate enough warp charge to be casting summons. A WC3 power takes like 6 or 7 dice with a famiiar to get off reliably. Where might a csm prince be gettting all these dice? How in the world can anyone think they are the best summoner is far and beyond any sort of logic.
liquidjoshi wrote:Ok, how do I play my fluffy Night Lords then?
Hellbrutes and Daemons?
Yeah, get real. God, these white knights...
The funny thing about night lords is (and iron warriors for that matter) is that they are not really "chaos" space marines. They are SM who fought on Horus' side but have not fallen to chaos and warp influence/mutations to any appreciable extent. In many ways these warpless SM are much better fit by their loyalist cousins than they are by their chaos tainted brothers. If I want to portray a night lords raiding party I would use ravenguard rules which do a great job of portraying an infiltrating SM force.
This might be the most wrong thing I've ever read on dakka, which is saying something. Seriously, read the night lords triliogy. If anything about that says "meh, loyalist is close enough" to to you then you probably need to see a psychiatrist. The bleeding eyes sustain themselves by eating the flesh of their prey for crying out loud. Its this sort of wild misunderstanding about traitor legions that leads to the dismal of all complaints. "meh just play a different army, its practically the same thing" pffffft. Its like saying "you want tau who are known for shooting guns? just play tac marines, they have guns too".
*coughBloodAngelscough*
I use vanilla marines (CT:IH, though CT:IF would also work well) for my Iron Warriors as I feel it ends up being a better fit than anything in the CSM book. No daemon engines, but CT:IH covers that. Centurions work as a replacement for Obliterators. Battle Brothers with IG. It's disappointing, as I want the real Daemon engines (I know, unbound) but the CSM book is, for me, a terrible representation of Iron Warriors overall.
SM for Tau doesn't work well, Tau are too unique. If the CSM codex had a system lice C:SM's chapter tactics to represent legions, I think a lot of the complaints would go away.
JubbJubbz wrote: This might be the most wrong thing I've ever read on dakka, which is saying something. Seriously, read the night lords triliogy. If anything about that says "meh, loyalist is close enough" to to you then you probably need to see a psychiatrist. The bleeding eyes sustain themselves by eating the flesh of their prey for crying out loud. Its this sort of wild misunderstanding about traitor legions that leads to the dismal of all complaints. "meh just play a different army, its practically the same thing" pffffft. Its like saying "you want tau who are known for shooting guns? just play tac marines, they have guns too".
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Flesh_Eaters#.U4liP_nxr0E Because eating people is something loyalist don't do? I am not talking about their actions but rather representing their military tactics on the table top. Tell me what units night lords field that does not fit with the SM codex?
JubbJubbz wrote: They are battle brothers minus the best benefits of battle brothers, namely joining each others' squads. Chaos sorcerers are no better at pulling demons from the warp than an ultra marine so I don't get where you're going there. Also where in the world do people get the idea that princes are the best psykers? You know they cost over like 300 points right? for a bunch of offensive melee stats they can't really use while trying to be a psyker. Additionally some of the worst durability for an MC in the game. But you may be right, they could be awesome, and that's why everyone is clamoring to take csm princes.... oh wait... no one takes them. 'cause they overpriced for anythng they'll ever do. Minus bel'akor, he rocks, but you might as well take him with demons instead of csm. Additionally csm don't generate enough warp charge to be casting summons. A WC3 power takes like 6 or 7 dice with a famiiar to get off reliably. Where might a csm prince be gettting all these dice? How in the world can anyone think they are the best summoner is far and beyond any sort of logic.
Because the CSM sorcerers and daemons get spell familiars. So where everyone else has a 50% chance on 5 dice to get a WC3 power off the CSM spell familiar psyker has a 75% chance. It makes them able to throw out way more powers than other psykers. You can even make the sorcerer into a daemon using the voices from crimson slaughter and use malefic powers only getting perils on double 6 or use a winged CSM daemon prince w/ spell familiar to summon daemons (though the sorcerer is probably a better buy). Flying MC are actually pretty tough now and you can just continuously fly on behind LoS blockers, conjure units, fly to the board edge next turn, conjure again, and run off the table again.
Anything not a daemon takes perils on any doubles. When using summoning which is WC3. 5 dice gives you a 50% chance to manifest but a 90% chance to perils. With a daemon it is 50% to manifest and 20% to perils. With a CSM spell familiar 5 dice gives you the same odds to manifest as 7 dice for anyone else.
What is CSM supposed to do now? Spam the crap out of Sorcerers and Psykers. Get as many Psychic Charge dice as you can and throw them on the table summoning Deamon units, Heralds, and Greater Deamons. Dominate the Psychic phase and double the size of your army.
The rest of your list? Take what ever you want. It won't matter as your main gimmick will be to summon as many Deamons as possible and drown your opponent in them.
Tamwulf wrote: What is CSM supposed to do now? Spam the crap out of Sorcerers and Psykers. Get as many Psychic Charge dice as you can and throw them on the table summoning Deamon units, Heralds, and Greater Deamons. Dominate the Psychic phase and double the size of your army.
The rest of your list? Take what ever you want. It won't matter as your main gimmick will be to summon as many Deamons as possible and drown your opponent in them.
FORGE THE NARRATIVE HARDER.
TBF, that's pretty much every apologist's (happy, Melissa? Even though language change is a thing) argument. Why should I have to play Space Marines when I want to play Chaos Space Marines? I shouldn't have to counts as for an army that technically already has a codex.
Also, suggesting BA as an appropriate alternative is like suggesting using a butter knife instead of that plank of wood in a gunfight.
Perhaps use your best-in-game psykers to support your other stuff? You're far more likely to succeed at casting Invis with a Familiar than any other faction. You don't need nearly as many dice to get off as many powers. And with fewer dice per power, you should get more powers off with fewer perils.
Instead of saying 'FML drake spam is dead, therefore CSM is now dead unless I find a better spam', perhaps you should be looking at a more combined arms approach?
Whatever the most broken option is (looking like Demon Factory), that leaves about 15 other factions that aren't top. Most of those players will keep their army, and still have fun.
CSM is probably not at the top of the heap, but the edition change was at worst a wash. Yes, the FAQs needed the Drake, and the VS change nerfed it further, but it needed it. Nurgle wasn't really touched, but killy characters had challenges buffed, all your vehicles are much more survivable (even the Drake), if a DP does get Iron Arm up, they're t8, and your Psykers are easily best in game (cheap reroll failed powers? Omg freaking yes!). Demons have endless summoning, but CSM isn't the only non-Demon faction.
Either you enjoy CSM for what they are or you don't. If you don't because they're not the strongest, then you're an FotM player, not a CSM player, and perhaps this game isn't for you. If you like the tactical challenge, there are more tactical games. If you enjoy stomping noobs, greifing is easier online (but still despicable). Find out what it is you like, and react accordingly.
Warmaster Phthisis wrote:
So, we have a noncompetitive codex that doesn't reflect the army's fluff, has no special tactics or strategies, is full of underpowered units and can't ally properly with anything.?
That aptly describes both of my main armies, CSM and Tyranids.
WayneTheGame wrote:To say nothing of the fact that if you DON'T want to play the foul Death Guard, you either make up "counts-as" reasons for taking the Mark of Nurgle anyways, or you languish in mediocrity because the units you'll take aren't as good as playing Death Guard.
I did that second option until recently. I don't like Nurgle, so I've been forced to deliberately handicap myself. However, I've always had a fledgling fluff for my CSM, and I've only recently started developing it properly. The short version is that they're mostly clones and stolen gene-seed. Sometimes they feel a sense of heritage, or just start exhibiting traits associated with their gene-seed. I wondered how I could fit Iron Hands into my army, and then I realised that I could use the Mark of Nurgle/Plague Marines. It made me feel bad, up until the point where the FAQ nerfed the Heldrake.
I'd like to say that I love the Daemon Engines (well, the Forgefiend and Heldrake). I'm not a fan of the fleshy 'fiend head because it looks like a sassy Tyranid. The plasma head is seriously cool, though, but I refuse to call it "ectoplasma".
koooaei wrote: It's as if orkses or tyranids suddenly went all shooty instead of choppy GWAAHAHAHAAAHAHA WUT NONSENCE! oh wait...
So....Bad moons?
They used to be BS3 y'know.
Even had a BS5+ Warboss, epic shooty.
Be very worried if Berserkers start carrying rifle sized or larger guns in their next iteration.
So...Teeth of Khorne?
World Eater Havocs who could only take Heavy Bolters or Autocannons, because any other weapon didn't spill enough blood in his name.
No not WE Teeth of Khorne (those I'm well aware of)
I meant Basic Berserkers carrying guns and having shooting oriented special rules.
Because I've had a suspicion that GW's design team is purposefully diminishing assault's role in the game.
Ah, well it's not like Orks were never pure assault to begin with, what with being able to take bolters and such before. (Of course I'm a Bad moonz Fan So I am a bit biased here in my enjoyment of Flash Gits and Dakka orks)
There's no use in complaining. The codex is terrible in every single way. We know it, GW knows it, (they even acknowledged how bad the 4.0 dex was) but GW doesn't care. If they cared they would've given us a quality codex but they didn't. If you want to get actual quality rules for your legion you can play with the HH books where the devs actually care about Chaos and aren't just pumping out Space Marine fanwank. It's a really good game and I highly recommend it for those interested.
ansacs wrote: I
Typhus with biomancy, abadon, and kharne were all close combat monsters (abadon is the best ICCC beastick in the game). Now that challenges cannot lock them up they got much better.
Number 2 of the good ol' "Stop Complaining" suggestions. As I've said in this very thread, it's either "Don't play your build, play MoN" or "Don't play CSM if you want to play CSM".
Anyway, I've just ordered some Oblits. The purportedly best HS choice of the CSM Codex should improve the performance of my army. They are likely to supplant my Lascannon Preds, but no one has said that I can't use both in the same army...
I recommend putting spikey bits on a drop pod, showing up and saying it costs 35 points, and seeing what your opponents say.
If they say, "cool!" you're in good shape.
If they say, "um, no." then eBay your CSM, sit in your car and listen to REM's "Everybody Hurts" on repeat for 20 minutes, then go find a more well-written/balanced game to play.
That's what I did, and I'm really happy except for the fist marks in my steering wheel.
I think the key problem is that GW is to some extent on the horns of a dilemma. The current CSM dex actually has a lot of available units, I'm not arguing their value or effectiveness just that there are a large number. There are numerous choices in every category but troops.
Now for the fluffy player, this is irrelevant. They'll be thinking "OK I'm a Slaaneshi so I would never pick Khorne berzerkers" or whatever. That desire for fluffiness means they will obviously ignore or refuse to use many of the available units. Thus to a fluffy player the dex seems ridiculously restrictive.
However, if you abandon all fluff and simply pick the units which are most effective in combination the dex is not bad, there is a lot to choose from and thoughtful players can put together a powerful, competitive, force. BUT they can only do that by ignoring the fluff and simply choosing the best.
Personally I am a fluffy player. I suppose luckily I like Nurgle and always have. However, I choose my army based on the fluff and based on what models I like rather than what will win.
Personally I have no issue with the daemon engines, I think they make sense. However, I think what we're seeing here are players who want to be able to choose a force which they feel is BOTH fluffy AND competitive.
I would propose a dex in which the various gods get differing options. However, this would open the door to 'undivided' (whatever the hell that is!?!?!) forces being allowed a massive selection of horrendously strong units.
The problem as I see it is that GW have abandoned the ideas of the early days, such as Khorne hates Slaanesh, etc. So there is 'undivided' which makes zero sense to me. How can Abaddon have the favour of all the gods despite them being deadly rivals???
I would have a dex which had loads and loads of units in it but which had restrictions based on the power followed. You could then take allied formations to choice, etc. Say a full FOC of Nurgle and a Slaaneshi allied contingent. I can't explain this as I want but hopefully you get the picture.
JubbJubbz wrote: This might be the most wrong thing I've ever read on dakka, which is saying something. Seriously, read the night lords triliogy. If anything about that says "meh, loyalist is close enough" to to you then you probably need to see a psychiatrist. The bleeding eyes sustain themselves by eating the flesh of their prey for crying out loud. Its this sort of wild misunderstanding about traitor legions that leads to the dismal of all complaints. "meh just play a different army, its practically the same thing" pffffft. Its like saying "you want tau who are known for shooting guns? just play tac marines, they have guns too".
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Flesh_Eaters#.U4liP_nxr0E Because eating people is something loyalist don't do? I am not talking about their actions but rather representing their military tactics on the table top. Tell me what units night lords field that does not fit with the SM codex?
Practically all of them? How about cc preferring tacticals? anything coming close to resembling terror tactics? Chaos infused units like berserkers ala Uzas? Bleeding eyes so twisted they can't even walk, shreiking with amplified vox to unsettle their opponents? Almost nothing in the SM dex can be used to accurately represent the Night Lords. This is why its so frustrating. People who have no clue about any aspect of chaos just telling you to play with loyalists who are entirely different. There's a reason they have different codexes. Even if SM could represent CSM, which it cant, there's already a separate CSM codex with a pretty strong following. Why not make it a decent representation of the armies its supposed to? Or everyone can just play with the same dex like you suggest, you honestly think that would be better?
JubbJubbz wrote: They are battle brothers minus the best benefits of battle brothers, namely joining each others' squads. Chaos sorcerers are no better at pulling demons from the warp than an ultra marine so I don't get where you're going there. Also where in the world do people get the idea that princes are the best psykers? You know they cost over like 300 points right? for a bunch of offensive melee stats they can't really use while trying to be a psyker. Additionally some of the worst durability for an MC in the game. But you may be right, they could be awesome, and that's why everyone is clamoring to take csm princes.... oh wait... no one takes them. 'cause they overpriced for anythng they'll ever do. Minus bel'akor, he rocks, but you might as well take him with demons instead of csm. Additionally csm don't generate enough warp charge to be casting summons. A WC3 power takes like 6 or 7 dice with a famiiar to get off reliably. Where might a csm prince be gettting all these dice? How in the world can anyone think they are the best summoner is far and beyond any sort of logic.
Because the CSM sorcerers and daemons get spell familiars. So where everyone else has a 50% chance on 5 dice to get a WC3 power off the CSM spell familiar psyker has a 75% chance. It makes them able to throw out way more powers than other psykers. You can even make the sorcerer into a daemon using the voices from crimson slaughter and use malefic powers only getting perils on double 6 or use a winged CSM daemon prince w/ spell familiar to summon daemons (though the sorcerer is probably a better buy). Flying MC are actually pretty tough now and you can just continuously fly on behind LoS blockers, conjure units, fly to the board edge next turn, conjure again, and run off the table again.
Anything not a daemon takes perils on any doubles. When using summoning which is WC3. 5 dice gives you a 50% chance to manifest but a 90% chance to perils. With a daemon it is 50% to manifest and 20% to perils. With a CSM spell familiar 5 dice gives you the same odds to manifest as 7 dice for anyone else.
You still don't have the warp charge to back up summons unless you are taking demons. So again you're left to trying to prop up the csm codex by shoving in allies. So you're going to plop down 300 points on a prince that requires you bring other psykers to feed it warp charge dice and think it'll be good because it can summon 100 pts of demons a turn with a 75% probability? let me know how that works out for you. It works for demons somewhat because they can flood their army with cheap ML3 heralds. It doesn't matter if their tough if they can't do anything worth while.
-- This quote applicable to every edition of CSM players since second or third. They whine more than Sisters players, even though they have less reason to
I think it's the whole religion thing. Between us Black Templars players, you Sisters players, and the CSM players there ought to be enough gnashing of teeth on the Internet to spawn Aaargh, Chaos God of whining.
On an unreleated note, be careful what you wish for. You might get your Legion tactics like so:
Spoiler:
Night Lords cause Fear to represent their terror tactics.
World Eaters get Crusader and Adamantium Will to represent their anger and their resistance to Psykers (no, I'm totally not stealing this example from anything else ).
Iron Warriors get rerolls to armour pen against buildings to represent their siege expertise.
Death Guard get Slow & Purposeful on everything (yes, including bikes!) and can buy Plague Knives for 3 PPM because who knows how GW thinks?
Thousand Sons get a random table of stuff to roll on, because Tzeentch is fickle.
Word Bearers get rerolls to Morale Tests and can reroll rolls on the Boon chart due to their devotion to Chaos.
Black Legion gets scoring Chosen but has to buy VotLW on everything, as in the supplement.
Emperor's Children get Acute Senses and Fearless, due to being used to extreme sensations.
Alpha Legion gets a Designer's Note telling you to use whatever Legion or Chapter Tactics you damn well please.
Would that still make y'all be as interested in Legion Tactics? Because as a Black Templars player, I can tell you that Chapter Tactics isn't a panacea, and you're not likely to be pleased with them even if you got them. Chapter/Legion Tactics doesn't do squat (no pun intended) if the units they affect aren't up to the task of doing stuff in the first place, unless they're much more powerful than in the current Space Marine Codex.
BrotherOfBone wrote: I apologise for making a suggestion. Silly me, should really stop trying to help spiteful dakkaites.
The problem more comes from it just being a slap to the face reminding many that we are just SM-
That and it's a mockery that CSM are better represented with SM
Well I'm just trying to help and people are going 'oh god typical Space Marine players'
I'll have you know I played Chaos Space Marines since 5th Edition, got the 6th Edition codex and scrapped my CSMs for Black Templars.
Also, many warbands (such as the Iron Warriors) /are/ better represented using the Space Marines codex, so stop having a go, I'm not trying to mock anyone.
BrotherOfBone wrote: I apologise for making a suggestion. Silly me, should really stop trying to help spiteful dakkaites.
The problem more comes from it just being a slap to the face reminding many that we are just SM-
That and it's a mockery that CSM are better represented with SM
Well I'm just trying to help and people are going 'oh god typical Space Marine players'
I'll have you know I played Chaos Space Marines since 5th Edition, got the 6th Edition codex and scrapped my CSMs for Black Templars.
Also, many warbands (such as the Iron Warriors) /are/ better represented using the Space Marines codex, so stop having a go, I'm not trying to mock anyone.
Naw man I get you. It's frustrating either way. Also, I meant more of the CSM book itself. The fact that SM really is largely just CSM+ and represents a vast majority of of not only warbands but legions is always somewhat bitter. And then comes the catch, what you say is TRUE. It really is, Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, and many more legions and warbands function far more effectively with the SM book than CSM. Then again CSM, Black Templars, and Sisters have to be bitter. It's the faith and all as somebody mentioned!
Okay, I think people upset that they can't run their own specific legion of CSM have a valid complaint, but that does not make the codex bad. As far as table top power and playability the codex isn't bad, it just isn't that great. Going back to my earlier example take a look at all of the codices available and compare the CSM codex to them, it doesn't look to bad in comparison. The problem is that this new CSM codex was written more to the warband and renegade space marine chapters as opposed to running legions.
If you want a legion codex, you have a valid complaint. This codex does not play well to the legions and plays more like the renegade hodge podge with a smattering of different units.
The problem I have is that so many CSM players act like because they can't run their own favorite legion, for example Night Lords, that this codex is a horrible failure. That doesn't make this codex a failure, it doesn't even mean that GW can fix this problem because even if they did update it to play Night Lords well it still wouldn't make the army any good on the table. Look at Raven Guard, they are roughly in the same boat as Night Lords but the problem at large is that Jump MEQ are terrible and overcosted. At best what you would get is a Night Lord "chapter tactic" that gives you fear and scout or something similar. Would that REALLY make you happy? Because that is what SM get. Raptors would still be mediocre, Warp Talons would still be massively overpriced, just like Assault Marines are mediocre and Vanguard Veterans are massively overpriced.
The Tyranid codex is a terrible codex. CSM is a mediocre codex with some bad units that can perform just fine on the table. It isn't great at portraying the fluff but what codex is?
Before anyone jumps on me and ignores this once again, I PLAY CSM. They are my second army of the six that I play, I enjoy playing my Slaanesh army, I enjoy playing my Khorne army. I want to build up a Tzeentch army and I have no plans on playing a Nurgle army. The only units I have not played in the newest codex are the dinobots because I hate the way they look, even use Mutilators successfully if not in a completely overpriced way.
Arbiter_Shade wrote: Okay, I think people upset that they can't run their own specific legion of CSM have a valid complaint, but that does not make the codex bad. As far as table top power and playability the codex isn't bad, it just isn't that great. Going back to my earlier example take a look at all of the codices available and compare the CSM codex to them, it doesn't look to bad in comparison. The problem is that this new CSM codex was written more to the warband and renegade space marine chapters as opposed to running legions.
If you want a legion codex, you have a valid complaint. This codex does not play well to the legions and plays more like the renegade hodge podge with a smattering of different units.
The problem I have is that so many CSM players act like because they can't run their own favorite legion, for example Night Lords, that this codex is a horrible failure. That doesn't make this codex a failure, it doesn't even mean that GW can fix this problem because even if they did update it to play Night Lords well it still wouldn't make the army any good on the table. Look at Raven Guard, they are roughly in the same boat as Night Lords but the problem at large is that Jump MEQ are terrible and overcosted. At best what you would get is a Night Lord "chapter tactic" that gives you fear and scout or something similar. Would that REALLY make you happy? Because that is what SM get. Raptors would still be mediocre, Warp Talons would still be massively overpriced, just like Assault Marines are mediocre and Vanguard Veterans are massively overpriced.
The Tyranid codex is a terrible codex. CSM is a mediocre codex with some bad units that can perform just fine on the table. It isn't great at portraying the fluff but what codex is?
Before anyone jumps on me and ignores this once again, I PLAY CSM. They are my second army of the six that I play, I enjoy playing my Slaanesh army, I enjoy playing my Khorne army. I want to build up a Tzeentch army and I have no plans on playing a Nurgle army. The only units I have not played in the newest codex are the dinobots because I hate the way they look, even use Mutilators successfully if not in a completely overpriced way.
The problem isn't how powerful the codex is It's how bad the internal balance is. For example, I can take my as-fluffy-as-possible-with-this-codex army of Thousand Sons/Bezerkers/Noise Marines/etc and get my butt handed to me by even the most casual Blood Angels list or I can take the only CSM list that works and kick a casual list's butt. I can't play casual games with this codex. I'm either getting murdered for taking ridiculously over costed units (85% of the codex) or I can bring my mono build and be 'that guy'.
And on a separate note, Tyranids aren't really that bad. Yes, it has some absolutely moronic stuff in the book (Pyrovores, Synapse, Genestealers) but it's a solid book otherwise.
If it hasn't already been mentioned, there is a decent 6th ed fandex around that gives a good shot at accurately representing each of the chaos legions. Uses the 6th ed 'dex as a baseline, does some basic changes (ie. drops warp talons down to a much more reasonable price), and adds special rules to run legions. Really well done.
I'm beginning to wonder if the CSM codex is really a honeypot. A codex designed to draw you in and then force you to purchase a new army because it always seems to suck so much.
Nah, GW has never shown enough competence to accomplish that............................right?
Isn't that the tyranid codex ? I never understood why chaos players want legions . GW was telling that there are no legions in 5th and in 6th , doubt that the fluff will change 7th. AM players aren't crying that their armies can't be made out of people from squatlanding or ogrynia.
Makumba wrote: Isn't that the tyranid codex ? I never understood why chaos players want legions . GW was telling that there are no legions in 5th and in 6th , doubt that the fluff will change 7th. AM players aren't crying that their armies can't be made out of people from squatlanding or ogrynia.
The background has plenty of examples of Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, and Night Lords capable of fielding large formations of troops in 40k.
I would say the Thousand Sons, World Eaters, and Emperor's Children would be unable to field significant sized forces of the same legion, but at least enough troops for your average 1750 pts army. So pure legion based forces while rare should be available. And it is what a good portion of the customer base wants.
Makumba wrote: Isn't that the tyranid codex ? I never understood why chaos players want legions . GW was telling that there are no legions in 5th and in 6th , doubt that the fluff will change 7th. AM players aren't crying that their armies can't be made out of people from squatlanding or ogrynia.
The background has plenty of examples of Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, and Night Lords capable of fielding large formations of troops in 40k.
I would say the Thousand Sons, World Eaters, and Emperor's Children would be unable to field significant sized forces of the same legion, but at least enough troops for your average 1750 pts army. So pure legion based forces while rare should be available. And it is what a good portion of the customer base wants.
If tiny (1000 marines is insignificant in relation to the setting) Loyalist Chapters get specific traits to represent the differences between armed forces which almost all follow the Codex Astartes to some extent there is no excuse for the Traitor Legions not getting a similar system
Warmaster Phthisis wrote: MK2, I'm pretty sure you didn't read anything that anyone wrote in this thread.
I did and stand by what I said . I don't agree the CSM dex is not competeve or in worse shape than before . The builds were narrow in 6th its still narrow in 7th ...but competitive .
Why do many people say CSM is now warbands not legions and thats why there's no legion traigts.. Warbands are similar to chapters. They come from legions and they don't just simply forget their preferred tactics and methods as soon as a legion splinters into warbands. A warband that came from the Night Lords legion will still fight like Night Lords by and large. Large warbands/renegades that don't have a singular parent legion like the Red Corsairs can have their own "chapter" tactics. The tactics thing is a great and easy way to put a lot of flavor into a book without much extra effort. I would like to see similar not only for CSM but for other armies that have clearly defined factions in the fluff.
Makumba wrote: Isn't that the tyranid codex ? I never understood why chaos players want legions . GW was telling that there are no legions in 5th and in 6th , doubt that the fluff will change 7th. AM players aren't crying that their armies can't be made out of people from squatlanding or ogrynia.
Because the Horus Heresy is about legions, because 2nd and 3rd were about legions, because 4th edition and 6th have slaughtered fluff and say NO LEGIONS despite them constantly talking about warbands composed of only legions.
Warmaster Phthisis wrote: MK2, I'm pretty sure you didn't read anything that anyone wrote in this thread.
I did and stand by what I said . I don't agree the CSM dex is not competeve or in worse shape than before . The builds were narrow in 6th its still narrow in 7th ...but competitive .
Competitive? The competitive list for csm in 6th by the end was as a heldrake, cultists, and a DP as allies for CD
Makumba wrote: Isn't that the tyranid codex ? I never understood why chaos players want legions . GW was telling that there are no legions in 5th and in 6th , doubt that the fluff will change 7th. AM players aren't crying that their armies can't be made out of people from squatlanding or ogrynia.
The background has plenty of examples of Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, and Night Lords capable of fielding large formations of troops in 40k.
I would say the Thousand Sons, World Eaters, and Emperor's Children would be unable to field significant sized forces of the same legion, but at least enough troops for your average 1750 pts army. So pure legion based forces while rare should be available. And it is what a good portion of the customer base wants.
Only the codex designers and BL writers say that there are no legion armies only warbands made out of squads from different chapters or renegades from different legions. Also am rather sure that all AM players wanted their vendettas not to get nerfed and all the players that had to buy a FW book to use their saber weapon platforms didn't want those to get nerfed in to the ground either , but GW did it anyway. Am not sure if 100% of all chaos players ever wanted legions , am sure that 100% of people who bought the high cost FW books and those 9 saber weapon platforms wanted them to stay unnerfed.
Because the Horus Heresy is about legions, because 2nd and 3rd were about legions, because 4th edition and 6th have slaughtered fluff and say NO LEGIONS despite them constantly talking about warbands composed of only legions.
Dembowski and Phill Kelly told they aren't , and they work for GW , so they are right as it is a GW game , not a players game.
I have a about 5000 points in CSM and here is what I plan to do now: I am not going to spend anymore money on this game. I have decided to keep what I have, play it with friends, and get into another game, like DZC or Warmahordes. CSM sucks, and GW sucks even more for failing to consider balance as a priority. Seriously, give up on CSM, there is no way to make it competitive.
I'm working on updating my groups "40k patch" for 7th ed with a bunch of unit tweaks to bring the main codices we use into line. Example of chaos changes:
Elite - Chaos Terminators: Terminator Champion may take melee weapon upgrades available to chaos terminators. - Posessed: -4 PPM. Marks -1ppm. - Helbrute: +Daemon - Khorne Zerks: +3ppm, Rampage, Chainaxe -1ppm - Thousand Sons: -23 PPM Aspiring Sorceror, free Icon of Flame Fast Attack - Chaos Bikers: +4ppm - Chaos Spawn: Unchanged. - Raptors:Champion -5ppm. - Warp Talons: -5PPM, Champion -10ppm, Marks -1ppm, VotL -1ppm - Heldrake: Baleflamer +15ppm
It gave us much better balance during 6th, shouldn't need much mroe tweaking to get it ready for 7th. The change to heldrake reduced it's power substantially, but the baleflamer is still pretty brutal so that upgrade will start with a points increase for example. Doesn't fix some of the basic flaws in the game such as difficulty of assault or vehicles getting snapped but that's harder to change and test so might come aftwewards.
Look there is always going to be some codices better then others in gw, it's always been that way so people need to relax on that matter for starters. What interest would gw ever have in balance? They just want to sell cool models and they do that quite well. So CSM aren't going to be able to write auto lists win like trip riptides or cronair before that but that doesn't mean they can't be competitive, they are just more challenging to play then some others. The only reason to bitch about CSM is in relation to the lack of a cohesive theme depending on factions and the poor fluff
Arbiter_Shade wrote: Okay, I think people upset that they can't run their own specific legion of CSM have a valid complaint, but that does not make the codex bad. As far as table top power and playability the codex isn't bad, it just isn't that great. Going back to my earlier example take a look at all of the codices available and compare the CSM codex to them, it doesn't look to bad in comparison. The problem is that this new CSM codex was written more to the warband and renegade space marine chapters as opposed to running legions.
If you want a legion codex, you have a valid complaint. This codex does not play well to the legions and plays more like the renegade hodge podge with a smattering of different units.
The problem I have is that so many CSM players act like because they can't run their own favorite legion, for example Night Lords, that this codex is a horrible failure. That doesn't make this codex a failure, it doesn't even mean that GW can fix this problem because even if they did update it to play Night Lords well it still wouldn't make the army any good on the table. Look at Raven Guard, they are roughly in the same boat as Night Lords but the problem at large is that Jump MEQ are terrible and overcosted. At best what you would get is a Night Lord "chapter tactic" that gives you fear and scout or something similar. Would that REALLY make you happy? Because that is what SM get. Raptors would still be mediocre, Warp Talons would still be massively overpriced, just like Assault Marines are mediocre and Vanguard Veterans are massively overpriced.
The Tyranid codex is a terrible codex. CSM is a mediocre codex with some bad units that can perform just fine on the table. It isn't great at portraying the fluff but what codex is?
Before anyone jumps on me and ignores this once again, I PLAY CSM. They are my second army of the six that I play, I enjoy playing my Slaanesh army, I enjoy playing my Khorne army. I want to build up a Tzeentch army and I have no plans on playing a Nurgle army. The only units I have not played in the newest codex are the dinobots because I hate the way they look, even use Mutilators successfully if not in a completely overpriced way.
The problem isn't how powerful the codex is It's how bad the internal balance is. For example, I can take my as-fluffy-as-possible-with-this-codex army of Thousand Sons/Bezerkers/Noise Marines/etc and get my butt handed to me by even the most casual Blood Angels list or I can take the only CSM list that works and kick a casual list's butt. I can't play casual games with this codex. I'm either getting murdered for taking ridiculously over costed units (85% of the codex) or I can bring my mono build and be 'that guy'.
And on a separate note, Tyranids aren't really that bad. Yes, it has some absolutely moronic stuff in the book (Pyrovores, Synapse, Genestealers) but it's a solid book otherwise.
I take fluffy Noise Marines and do just fine, they are far from bad and I could not imagine losing to a casual Blood Angels list. Hell Bezerkers would do great against a casual Blood Angels list, they would be putting themselves into CC just like you want. The CSM codex internal balance isn't as bad as you are making it out to be. Nurgle anything is obviously the best choice but it isn't that much better than Slaanesh and despite what people think the MoK is not bad either, Bezerkers are pretty bad but just taking the MoK on the majority of units isn't a waste of points.
I play three of what are considered the worst armies, CSM, SoB/AS, and Tyranids. SoB are FAR from bad and their reputation is strictly because no one every sees them, CSM have some issues but overall can stand up just fine on their own, Tyranids are just terrible leaving only about one viable list for even casual play. I could go into greater detail for you about the Tyranid codex but that isn't what this topic is about.
Nuln_Oil wrote: I have a about 5000 points in CSM and here is what I plan to do now: I am not going to spend anymore money on this game. I have decided to keep what I have, play it with friends, and get into another game, like DZC or Warmahordes. CSM sucks, and GW sucks even more for failing to consider balance as a priority. Seriously, give up on CSM, there is no way to make it competitive.
ErikSetzer wrote: First off, you don't know suffering if you aren't an Ork fanatic. Seriously, I know they're about to get a new book in a couple of weeks, but THREE new editions of the game have come out since their last book.
As someone who has been a diehard fan of both armies since early 3rd edition, I daresay Orks have never had it as bad overall as CSM have for the past 2 editions. Even when their 48-page Codex was 8 years old, they could at least make some fun builds, and got Speed Freak and Klan rules along the way to spice things up. Chaos has just been a sad shadow of its former self ever since the 3.5 codex was phased out. I tossed out my Thousand Sons when the 6th edition Codex came out and it became obvious that GW has no intention of letting us play Legions ever again.
With the changes to Flyers and FMC the Heldrake is still an auto-take, but bikes are more appealing since it might not be worth while anymore to max helturkies. Daemon engines and possesed vehicles got better due to the damage chart, so pretty much any chaos vehicle bar the Defiler can be worth the investment (The Land Raider is still expensive, but DP and Durge Caster can be an effective battle taxi). The Defiler is still not advisable due to Ordnance weapons not changing and the points cost of the model itself.
If you want to play Psykerhammer, Thousand Sons give you more charges on top of the AP3 bolters and semi-tough scoring bodies, which might give your Sorcerers room to summon Daemons.
Makumba wrote: Isn't that the tyranid codex ? I never understood why chaos players want legions . GW was telling that there are no legions in 5th and in 6th , doubt that the fluff will change 7th. AM players aren't crying that their armies can't be made out of people from squatlanding or ogrynia.
The background has plenty of examples of Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, and Night Lords capable of fielding large formations of troops in 40k.
I would say the Thousand Sons, World Eaters, and Emperor's Children would be unable to field significant sized forces of the same legion, but at least enough troops for your average 1750 pts army. So pure legion based forces while rare should be available. And it is what a good portion of the customer base wants.
Only the codex designers and BL writers say that there are no legion armies only warbands made out of squads from different chapters or renegades from different legions. Also am rather sure that all AM players wanted their vendettas not to get nerfed and all the players that had to buy a FW book to use their saber weapon platforms didn't want those to get nerfed in to the ground either , but GW did it anyway. Am not sure if 100% of all chaos players ever wanted legions , am sure that 100% of people who bought the high cost FW books and those 9 saber weapon platforms wanted them to stay unnerfed.
Because the Horus Heresy is about legions, because 2nd and 3rd were about legions, because 4th edition and 6th have slaughtered fluff and say NO LEGIONS despite them constantly talking about warbands composed of only legions.
Dembowski and Phill Kelly told they aren't , and they work for GW , so they are right as it is a GW game , not a players game.
Speaking as an Imperial Guard player; the vendetta was under priced. Never bought saber platforms because all your doing is multiplying the cost of each edition change by the cost of all of the rules books you need to stay up to date. I have Heavy Mortars and a Damocles rhino I can't currently use.
But you are correct; 40k is not a player's game, its a sucker's game.
Makumba wrote: Isn't that the tyranid codex ? I never understood why chaos players want legions . GW was telling that there are no legions in 5th and in 6th , doubt that the fluff will change 7th. AM players aren't crying that their armies can't be made out of people from squatlanding or ogrynia.
Because the Horus Heresy is about legions, because 2nd and 3rd were about legions, because 4th edition and 6th have slaughtered fluff and say NO LEGIONS despite them constantly talking about warbands composed of only legions.
Warmaster Phthisis wrote: MK2, I'm pretty sure you didn't read anything that anyone wrote in this thread.
I did and stand by what I said . I don't agree the CSM dex is not competeve or in worse shape than before . The builds were narrow in 6th its still narrow in 7th ...but competitive .
Competitive? The competitive list for csm in 6th by the end was as a heldrake, cultists, and a DP as allies for CD
I won with CSM late in 6th (I have played for 24 years and travel...get on a plane....to go to big tournaments , so i take the competitive scene seriously)
The only thing that stopped me cold was daemon flying circus loaded up with terrify and puppet master. 2 things i am not worried about in 7th but currently I am playing GK and have not revisited this list, IMHO its still competitive.
Makumba wrote: Isn't that the tyranid codex ? I never understood why chaos players want legions . GW was telling that there are no legions in 5th and in 6th , doubt that the fluff will change 7th. AM players aren't crying that their armies can't be made out of people from squatlanding or ogrynia.
Because the Horus Heresy is about legions, because 2nd and 3rd were about legions, because 4th edition and 6th have slaughtered fluff and say NO LEGIONS despite them constantly talking about warbands composed of only legions.
Warmaster Phthisis wrote: MK2, I'm pretty sure you didn't read anything that anyone wrote in this thread.
I did and stand by what I said . I don't agree the CSM dex is not competeve or in worse shape than before . The builds were narrow in 6th its still narrow in 7th ...but competitive .
Competitive? The competitive list for csm in 6th by the end was as a heldrake, cultists, and a DP as allies for CD
I won with CSM late in 6th (I have played for 24 years and travel...get on a plane....to go to big tournaments , so i take the competitive scene seriously)
The only thing that stopped me cold was daemon flying circus loaded up with terrify and puppet master. 2 things i am not worried about in 7th but currently I am playing GK and have not revisited this list, IMHO its still competitive.
And Nurgle mono-list has reared its ugly head again.
I think this thread proves the extent to which people do not understand our complaints. It's not a case of the codex power level or internal balance of overall units. Chaos is a unique army in that their should be at least 5 Unique internal armies; each of the 4 Chaos Gods and the different degrees of Undivided armies. With a World Eaters Army being almost entirely different to A Thousand Sons army composition.
If we take this as a basic staple of fluff going back to the beginning of 40k, then we establish the need to field these armies. So Khorne for example, needs to have enough options to field an all Khornate Warband that still has variety.
Now the main issue that seems to be cropping up in this thread is people who just simply do not understand where us veterans of the long war are coming from. People are saying that we can't expect this and that it wouldn't be viable etc etc. But the things is...We had this codex...3.5 did exactly what we wanted it to in regard to the legions and Warbands alike. Sure it had some balance issues; Iron Warriors and Slaaneshi Daemon bomb were very abusable just like the current dex has the Heldrake for cheesy armies. But for those of us that liked to play fluff, the option was there. Instead of tweaking that for balance, GW threw the whole thing out and gave us a bland, minimalist 4th ed codex. Then when 6th rolled around they failed to bring back the things we loved and threw in a bunch of stuff that no one asked for.
For those of you that don't remember (or weren't around to know) 3.5 was broken up as follows:
We had the main codex, all the basic units that you would expect to see in a Chaos army. This could be used to field Warbands or Black Legion armies just as well as the current dex.
We then had four internal "books" The book of Khorne, Book of Nurgle etc. These had specific bonus and negative traits for the 4 powers. For example, all gods had a sacred number and squads got small buffs for being fielded in their respective squad sizes. This wasn't just a case of chucking a mark on everything either. Thousand Sons Terminators were THOUSAND SONS in terminator armour, as in, lead by a Sorceror, the rest are automatons. Emperor's Children Dreads had sonic weaponry, Death Guard Havocs were Plague Marines with Long range weapons. So we didn't just have 4 unique units, almost every unit could be tailored to fit with your Legion.
This was offset by the face that a Fluffy army would have limitations like Deathguard having 0-2 Rhino's or a Khorne Warband having to take Plague marines as Elites if you did break fluff slightly, to represent the infrequent nature of such alliances whilst still giving the option to do so.
One of the biggest attacks on this aspect of the codex was stripping out Daemons, because suddenly we lost god specific units which before added variety to monogod armies. I somewhat understand why this was stripped out and you can somewhat fix it now thanks to allies. But the losses of the Legion specific mechanics just seems like a sad waste. I really feel for all those people with beautiful Forge World Legion dreads who now have to use them as generic Helbrutes.
Then finally we had the other four Undivided Legions, who had small rules fixes to make them play uniquely. Now again, I know a lot of people will cry foul on how broken IW were. But that could have been fixed with tweaks, not by removing it entirely. I for one, played Alpha Legion, which to be honest were pretty subpar even in that codex, as a lot of the cool options (Daemons, Possessed etc) were off limits but we could field specialised cultists. So even though it wasn't the strongest build, it FELT like an Alpha Legion army. When I played in 4th it felt like I was just playing a generic Chaos army that I myself had chosen not to take some of the better units but with no small buffs to even it out anymore.
Another insanely iconic part of the 3.5 codex for me, was customisation of Lords. Firstly we had base profiles for both a Lord and a weaker Lieutenant. You could then pick from a huge variety of upgrades to represent their progress on the path to damnation, with Daemon Prince being the end goal. So I could play a young Warband, where my leader had very little chaotic abilities, then as the points level went up, give him more badass equipment such as daemon armour, and abilities like mutant claws or the ability to cause terror. It made every leader feel unique, not just a handful of traits that can moderately change a fairly useless HQ choice, in a codex with much better Special Characters.
The point I make to all the loyalist players claiming that we complain too much, is not, oh you get chapter tactics, it's oh, you get 5 friggin books to field your unique armies. We are only asking for one. Imagine if Blood Angels, Space Wolves and DA were all rolled into the main codex and you suddenly just had Long Fangs, Deathwing and Baal Preds, but could mix and match them as you pleased. Black Templar players must know how we feel by now as they have just become a line of text in a wider codex that now no longer FEELS like it's fluff suggests it should.
I sadly sold my Alpha Legion at the end of 5th after realising I will never be able to play it the same way anymore. The only way I would go back to playing 40k is if I joined a nice gaming group who let me adapt the 3.5 ed codex to play in a way that I find enjoyable. Alas as a person that relied on pick up games and combined with sky high prices, it's unlikely I would invest in a new army because I would never again get to field an army in the way that I used to love.
It's not about wanting the impossible. It's about experiencing a rich diverse army and then having it taken away and replaced with something that feels entirely different to play and then being told not to complain because we have a broken unit that makes the codex viable.
ChazSexington wrote: I'd love getting the legions' tactics sorted out properly, but it does seem like at least ForgeWorld takes it seriously.
Tbh though, I find CSM quite competitive. I've never been completely pounded, and my army features the DV Chosen and Chaos Lord.
The main advantage I've always seen in Chaos is largely their infantry. A CSM squad with a Sergeant packing a power fist and equipped with two meltaguns may not look like much, but they're going to hurt the enemy pretty bad when they ride up to their vehicles and blow them apart. The only real disadvantage of Chaos is how damn pricy a squad can get. IIRC, doesn't a fully buffed CSM squad end up costing more than a stripped down Predator?
The only real grief I have with Chaos is the lack of a fluffy Codex with fluffy rules. But it's not like they're a horrible army, just average like Space Marines.
The main advantage I've always seen in Chaos is largely their infantry. A CSM squad with a Sergeant packing a power fist and equipped with two meltaguns may not look like much, but they're going to hurt the enemy pretty bad when they ride up to their vehicles and blow them apart. The only real disadvantage of Chaos is how damn pricy a squad can get. IIRC, doesn't a fully buffed CSM squad end up costing more than a stripped down Predator?
A tooled CSM squad will cost 3-4 times as much as a stripped down predator.
ChazSexington wrote: I'd love getting the legions' tactics sorted out properly, but it does seem like at least ForgeWorld takes it seriously.
Tbh though, I find CSM quite competitive. I've never been completely pounded, and my army features the DV Chosen and Chaos Lord.
The main advantage I've always seen in Chaos is largely their infantry. A CSM squad with a Sergeant packing a power fist and equipped with two meltaguns may not look like much, but they're going to hurt the enemy pretty bad when they ride up to their vehicles and blow them apart. The only real disadvantage of Chaos is how damn pricy a squad can get. IIRC, doesn't a fully buffed CSM squad end up costing more than a stripped down Predator?
The only real grief I have with Chaos is the lack of a fluffy Codex with fluffy rules. But it's not like they're a horrible army, just average like Space Marines.
Chaos Space Marines are almost all infantry so surely that's their advantage. But as I said earlier, it's mainly just different flavors of the exact same infantry unit (the basic CSM). Every infantry unit with higher costs is just this basic troop unit with extra powers. Jump packs, anti-armor weapons, melee bonuses, sorcerers, ignores cover, tons of lascannons, whatever... heck even the Obliterators are just retooled space marines, they just get a lot more for their cost and are actually worth it.
The issue with being a mostly space marine army is that they don't get the perks of the real space marines, like ATSKNF. Our champions are also required to start challenges so any big scary units will end up destroying our HQs and leaders, resulting in even more morale failures. This isn't a fearless army of juggernauts that march to the terminator's drum, they're just a pack of marginally useful, extremely over-costed space marines without the main Space Marine advantage!
Where we really differentiate is in the vehicles. Our stuff is daemon/machine hybrids with characteristics of both. Problem is they really aren't that great.
NathanD298 wrote:So I'm guessing now is a bad time to have just started a Chaos Space Marine army.......
Yeah. A very bad time, as it turns out. I jumped on the CSM bandwagon at 6th ed, and while I'm having a blast painting and modeling, I'm absolutely loathe to playing games now because 1: I don't have a vault filled with Swiss chocolates, German Gold and African diamonds and 2: Even if I had someone take it down to my level, they'll still crush me outright, without me so much as even getting Linebreaker. Granted, I don't have the best army in life, but gddmn, I should be able to at least entertain a game of someone equivalent when they show up, and I can't!
lord_blackfang wrote:
NathanD298 wrote: So I'm guessing now is a bad time to have just started a Chaos Space Marine army.......
Well, if you weren't around in the good old days, you might be okay simply because you don't know what you're missing.
Wasn't around during the "good old days" and I still know what I'm missing. It's called Plasma Cannons. >< I know I'm one-noting Plasma Cannons today, but seriously, if you can't even give CSM plasma cannons (or twin linked bolter guns ftm) then I can't believe there is any sort of balance or playability in an army that is almost identical, even when they're not supposed to be.
NathanD298 wrote: So I'm guessing now is a bad time to have just started a Chaos Space Marine army.......
Well, if you weren't around in the good old days, you might be okay simply because you don't know what you're missing.
Unless they look at Horus Heresy legion lists by mistake.
Did that too and was driven even deeper into the madness of the Eye of Terror. Now where the hell did I put that Volkite. ;>>
Wyzilla wrote:
ChazSexington wrote: I'd love getting the legions' tactics sorted out properly, but it does seem like at least ForgeWorld takes it seriously.
Tbh though, I find CSM quite competitive. I've never been completely pounded, and my army features the DV Chosen and Chaos Lord.
The main advantage I've always seen in Chaos is largely their infantry. A CSM squad with a Sergeant packing a power fist and equipped with two meltaguns may not look like much, but they're going to hurt the enemy pretty bad when they ride up to their vehicles and blow them apart. The only real disadvantage of Chaos is how damn pricy a squad can get. IIRC, doesn't a fully buffed CSM squad end up costing more than a stripped down Predator?
The only real grief I have with Chaos is the lack of a fluffy Codex with fluffy rules. But it's not like they're a horrible army, just average like Space Marines.
Except Space Marines aren't average. They get Chapter Tactics and Drop Pods that don't crash and all of this other b.s. that the Legions had as well. So, that statement really makes Chaos fall that much lower beneath the Loyalists.
ChazSexington wrote: I'd love getting the legions' tactics sorted out properly, but it does seem like at least ForgeWorld takes it seriously.
Tbh though, I find CSM quite competitive. I've never been completely pounded, and my army features the DV Chosen and Chaos Lord.
The main advantage I've always seen in Chaos is largely their infantry. A CSM squad with a Sergeant packing a power fist and equipped with two meltaguns may not look like much, but they're going to hurt the enemy pretty bad when they ride up to their vehicles and blow them apart. The only real disadvantage of Chaos is how damn pricy a squad can get. IIRC, doesn't a fully buffed CSM squad end up costing more than a stripped down Predator?
The only real grief I have with Chaos is the lack of a fluffy Codex with fluffy rules. But it's not like they're a horrible army, just average like Space Marines.
Chaos Space Marines are almost all infantry so surely that's their advantage. But as I said earlier, it's mainly just different flavors of the exact same infantry unit (the basic CSM). Every infantry unit with higher costs is just this basic troop unit with extra powers. Jump packs, anti-armor weapons, melee bonuses, sorcerers, ignores cover, tons of lascannons, whatever... heck even the Obliterators are just retooled space marines, they just get a lot more for their cost and are actually worth it.
The issue with being a mostly space marine army is that they don't get the perks of the real space marines, like ATSKNF. Our champions are also required to start challenges so any big scary units will end up destroying our HQs and leaders, resulting in even more morale failures. This isn't a fearless army of juggernauts that march to the terminator's drum, they're just a pack of marginally useful, extremely over-costed space marines without the main Space Marine advantage!
Where we really differentiate is in the vehicles. Our stuff is daemon/machine hybrids with characteristics of both. Problem is they really aren't that great.
Problem is NOTHING CSM's get is "that great." They're all hand-me-downs from the Loyalists, and we can't even get all the hand-me-downs we should. I revert to our duct-tape bolters and plasma cannons that Space Marines can hold, but Chaos Space Marines can't. How many different dreadnaughts do the Loyalists get? Let's roll call.
Dreadnaught. Iron-Clad Dreadnaught. Psy-Naught.
What does Chaos have? Oh we don't. Scratch that, we got the red-headed step child of the Dreadnaught, the Helbrute. Basically a Dreadnaught that was dropped on its head and had its armor wrenched off. Gtfo...
mk2 wrote: I won with CSM late in 6th (I have played for 24 years and travel...get on a plane....to go to big tournaments , so i take the competitive scene seriously)
The only thing that stopped me cold was daemon flying circus loaded up with terrify and puppet master. 2 things i am not worried about in 7th but currently I am playing GK and have not revisited this list, IMHO its still competitive.
Let's see...
Typhus? Check Walking Dead Zerg? Check 3x Heldrakes? Check Maxed oblits with MoN? Check Plague Marines? Check
Lists like that are part of the issue. It's competitive, yes, but it's also only a single god and a specific style that most Chaos players don't want. Hell even if you were a die-hard Death Guard fan you would not want to field that garbage, because it's not even Death Guard. It's zombie spam with a bone thrown to Death Guard. That barely qualifies as a Chaos list.
I'm going to repost this here from the "What's so bad about 6e Chaos" thread. Caution its LONG with lots of quotes that might make veterans teary-eyed with memories:
Spoiler:
Here are some quotes from White Dwarf #199, August 1996, the issue when the 2nd edition Chaos Codex was released. Although it didn't have legion rules, IMO the 2nd edition Chaos codex captured the feel of chaos. Things like being limited with Reaper Autocannons, MkI plasma guns, chainfists, combi-bolters and the like still gave Chaos that archaic feel.
Andy Chambers wrote: We wanted Chaos forces to have a strong theme so we looked at what had gone before and what people chose for their Chaos armies in the 1995 Warhammer 40,000 tournament. This gave us one overwhelming answer: Chaos Space Marines. Every army contained Chaos Space Marines and nearly all included daemons as well. Working with this we decided to make the main army list in Codex Chaos depict a raiding force of Chaos Space Marines from the Eye of Terror. ...
Andy Chambers wrote: ... The next things to worry about were how to make the Chaos Space Marines different from Imperial Space Marines: was it to be simply a case of different coloured power armour or something more than that? Obviously something more ...
Andy Chambers wrote: To me the Chaos Space Marines needed to be characterised as a threat reaching back to the Imperium's past, a threat which had refused to lie down and become part of history. This is in part why the gods of Chaos are less pivotal in Codex Chaos; we felt that the motivations of Chaos Space Marines should remain their own, no matter how debased and vile. Though the corrupted Space Marines of the Traitor Legions make excellent champions for the gods of Chaos, they are not pawns and have their own agendas of vengeance, empire-building vindication or arcane study which gives them purpose.
Andy Chambers wrote: Another interesting spin we came up with was to make Chaos Space Marine forces feel as if they had been exiled to the Eye of Terror ten millenia before the Imperium's "present" day. Though the technological advancement of the Imperium moves at the speed of an aged tortois, ten thousand years was bound to bring some changes. This suggested limiting the Traitor Legions' weaponry to some of the "older" types and making others dangerous, experimental precursors of the guns used by Imperial Space Marines. This, combined with the older patterns of power armour the designes have used, gives the Chaos Space Marine miniatures a dark, archaic feel which contrasts well with the clean, upright loyalist Space Marines.
Now here are some quotes from White Dwarf #274 (#273 in the US), dated October 2002, heralding the release of the 3.5 Chaos Codex, arguably an even better interpretation of the Chaos rules than the 2nd edition book.
The Codex formalizes the idea that there are nine entirely different Chaos Legions, each with its own strengths and weaknesses rather than a single homogenized force. It had become clear to me that single-Legion armies were the preference of the vast majority of Chaos players, and the response to Index Astartes was all the confirmation that was needed.
I had already developed a clear view about whether to include Cultists and other Chaos-aligned troops, such as mutants and abhumans. The name of the Codex would be Codex: Chaos Space Marines, so the whole emphasis would be on the Traitor Legions themselves. Obviously, it would have to cover Daemons, as the Chaos Space Marines have the ability to summon them. However, i saw no good reason for including Cultists other than as an Alpha Legion options (and I made sure that these were quite specialized). Cultists work best as a separate army, and there is plenty of scope for a distinct Cultist army list to be developed further.
Obliterators and Raptors, troops types new to Third Edition Warhammer 40,000, had to be examined and moved forward. Clearly, the basis was there for two excellent troop types, but they had never quite caught on. In the case of the Obliterators, they lacked the endurance or firepower that their imagery (and points value) implied. Raptors were similarly very expensive in points for what they did.
Chaos Space Marines are all, to some extent, veterans. The long war has hardened them in a way only the oldest Dreadnoughts of the loyalist Legions could understand. The new Space Marines might have their Land Speeders, multi-meltas, and plasma cannons, but the Chaos Space Marinds have experience. That hs to count for something. To represent their experiernce, I detailed a number of Veteran skills drawn mainly from campaign experience systems but also from the special skill lists that have been developed to support the Index Astartes articles. ... In this way, any Chaos Space Marine can be fielded as a Veteran with something to show for his 10,000 years of experience beyond being able to infiltrate.
That's what Chaos is about. The fact that a spammy mono-Nurgle list is competitive isn't the point here, it's that for those of us who don't want to play Nurgle, the army choices suck and even people who do like Nurgle get shafted because the competitive Nurgle list is boring tripe. It's not even a Death Guard army.
liquidjoshi wrote:Ok, how do I play my fluffy Night Lords then?
Hellbrutes and Daemons?
Yeah, get real. God, these white knights...
The funny thing about night lords is (and iron warriors for that matter) is that they are not really "chaos" space marines. They are SM who fought on Horus' side but have not fallen to chaos and warp influence/mutations to any appreciable extent. In many ways these warpless SM are much better fit by their loyalist cousins than they are by their chaos tainted brothers. If I want to portray a night lords raiding party I would use ravenguard rules which do a great job of portraying an infiltrating SM force.
Read Storm of Iron for info on how the current Iron Warriors do things. They are very much chaos worshippers they just don't devote themselves to a single patron. Heck, their warsmith turned into a daemon prince and they are very much into daemon engines.
While it is harder to do some of the legions justice, its not difficult to do some of them, they just aren't as competitive as CSM players want them to be. I believe someone was complaining about not being able to build Death guard....and I have to ask, "Why can't you?". Nurgle marines are the best in the book so it really should not be a problem to build a solid DG army.
I don't think it's quite that. It's more of the.... I can't truly make a DG army. The Plague Marines are DG and Typh' is DG but zombies? Nurgle Terminators? Etc? They aren't truly DG. They are more akin to zombies and some random Nurgle warband that tagged along for the ride.
As for what warband you can make a really decent representation.... Nurgle warband for sure. Emperor's Children and Death Guard are probably the easiest legions to represent but even then they are a bit flawed.
I want to use Khorne Berzerkers without having to pray i can do enough damage on turn 1 so that they dont get bogged down for 3 turns.
I want to use the World Eaters Berzerker Terminators, 1/4 ton axe wielding monstrosities that hack through anything they can run down.
I want the fury-filled dreadnoughts the legion had, which brought fear into their bother-legions even before the heresy.
I want the most veteran of the Caedere charging around on the battlefield astride the great Juggernaughts they have inevitably tamed by this point.
I want my Chaos Lords to be the most terrifying CC characters in the game. Sewing death and destruction while in a trance-like state of cold, focused rage.
I want Khârn to remember where he left his artificer armour and iron halo.
... ... ...
Turns out I want a WE heresy legion list... feth me C:CSM is depressing.
Actually, you could also field a decent Iron Warriors army now, but you need their battle tactics and honestly, I don't think the Fists cut it. Their tactic is re-rolling bolter shots, right?
Well, the Iron Warriors laugh at bolter shots, seeing as how their warpsmiths are pretty much a brain and metal. So trait wise, I'm thinking bonus' to vindicator shells and unique armor formations. Maybe expand their FOC.
Representing them is pretty easy too but they need the rules to keep them strong. Iron Within, iron Without.
StarTrotter wrote: I don't think it's quite that. It's more of the.... I can't truly make a DG army. The Plague Marines are DG and Typh' is DG but zombies? Nurgle Terminators? Etc? They aren't truly DG. They are more akin to zombies and some random Nurgle warband that tagged along for the ride.
As for what warband you can make a really decent representation.... Nurgle warband for sure. Emperor's Children and Death Guard are probably the easiest legions to represent but even then they are a bit flawed.
Ironically you are right, the zombies are purely part of Typhus plague, who is by that point renegade.
I was SOOOOO excited for the Unbound rules until I found out that AM is 'Come the Apocalypse' with CSM. That really throws a huge spanner in the works for me.
Ditto. I was going to take some Russes as HS, and shove my PM's into chimeras.
Cover everything in nurglitch goop, and call it a plague host. Fluff-tastic.
WayneTheGame wrote: That's what Chaos is about. The fact that a spammy mono-Nurgle list is competitive isn't the point here, it's that for those of us who don't want to play Nurgle, the army choices suck and even people who do like Nurgle get shafted because the competitive Nurgle list is boring tripe. It's not even a Death Guard army.
And yet Codex: Space Marines is held up as a paragon of design when it's more or less Iron Hands/White Scars or go home. Chapter/Legion Tactics isn't a replacement for proper unit design.
Unfortunately, most C:SM players want the Heresy-era legions, not the current 41st Millenium legions (if they can even be called that now). The fluff has been pretty adamant that most of the old Legions are no more, having devolved into smaller warbands. Even the Black Legion is far from The Sons of Horus/Lunar Wolves, since basically they force every smaller warband to adopt the Black or die, or they take any scrap of geneseed they can steal to add whatever Fabius Bile can create.
I think from a fluff perspective, the only legions that tend to still operate in the same manner as a true Heresy-era Legion are Iron Warriors, Word Bearers, and Black Legion (and I already stated why they aren't the same anymore). Alpha Legion could also be included in this, but they operate as small warbands to spread discord over a larger area (sort of like they did originally). Deathguard have sort of been left out as to how they currently operate, with the fluff seeming to only focus on Typhus and his plague. Night Lords, 1000 Sons, Emperor's Children, and World Eaters seem to have all more or less broken apart into much smaller warbands with little to no legion structure left.
While not a C:SM player, I'd love to see something that focuses on the legions with more unique tactics, such as Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, or Night Lords. There really isn't much to support Deathguard ,Word Bearers, 1000 Sons, or World Eaters functioning that much differently from the units already presented in the codex (albeit I readily admit the costs on a few of them should be modified, Berzerkers are ridiculously priced). The Black Legion supplement was a waste of time.
I think one simple fix would be to allow C:SM to take 2 HQ for every available slot, much like Space Wolves and Daemon Heralds, and a Chapter Master level generic HQ option. This would play to the whole "Champions trying to get the attention of the Chaos gods" vibe that is currently the focus, and would better represent a gathering of different warbands.
Honestly, if units like Khorne Berserkers weren't absolutely terrible, that would probably quiet down a lot of the call for Legion tactics/codices. I know I would have been perfectly happy if my WE/Khorne army would be functionally playable regardless of whether I had a WE codex or just the generic CSM one. I think people are partially just looking at a legion specific codex as a solution to the problem.
We want to feel like we're playing our favorite legions. As it is, it feels generic and un-fluffy.
I'd accept the current power levels if it felt like I was actually playing a world eater army and not a "warband" with a few zerkers.
Having a bunch of plague marines, obliterators and forgefiends just doesn't capture the feel of my beloved Iron warriors.
ClassicCarraway wrote: Unfortunately, most C:SM players want the Heresy-era legions, not the current 41st Millenium legions (if they can even be called that now). The fluff has been pretty adamant that most of the old Legions are no more, having devolved into smaller warbands. Even the Black Legion is far from The Sons of Horus/Lunar Wolves, since basically they force every smaller warband to adopt the Black or die, or they take any scrap of geneseed they can steal to add whatever Fabius Bile can create.
I think from a fluff perspective, the only legions that tend to still operate in the same manner as a true Heresy-era Legion are Iron Warriors, Word Bearers, and Black Legion (and I already stated why they aren't the same anymore). Alpha Legion could also be included in this, but they operate as small warbands to spread discord over a larger area (sort of like they did originally). Deathguard have sort of been left out as to how they currently operate, with the fluff seeming to only focus on Typhus and his plague. Night Lords, 1000 Sons, Emperor's Children, and World Eaters seem to have all more or less broken apart into much smaller warbands with little to no legion structure left.
Really hope I don't come off as a jerk here, but this is so so wrong. We don't want the Heresy Legions at all, we want our 3.5 broken and reforged Legions, which are still canon. The Legions may not fight under one banner anymore, some may not even call themselves by their old names but they are bonded by traditions. The Night lords will always be creatures of terror, refusing to worship chaos, even when some are foolish enough to be corrupted by it, they do not worship it.
We want insane world eaters where even the Termies and the Dreads are fuelled by rage, carrying axes of Khorne, screaming devotion to the blood god.
We want Thousand Sons where every single member (not just one squad in the codex) is a husk of walking armour lead by a sorcerer.
We want Death Guard where every single Marine is a walking hive of plague, vehicles are impossibly rare but almost unnecessary to the virtually unkillable menace pacing forward slowly under a steady stream of fire.
We want Emperors Children where even the vehicles are shrines to excess, blaring doom sirens and sonic blasters at the foe.
Iron Warriors I would say can actually be done unit wise but we want rules to represent the most bitter legion's 10,000 years of pent up hatred and paranoia, not just space marines with lots of artillery.
We want choices of Veteran upgrades to represent 10,000 year old Warriors, not just spikey space marines. Varying degrees of mutations that can be bought for HQ or Squad leaders to show their progress on the path of worship.
We don't want to field armies from Codex Space Marines, because ATSKNF is not fluffy for us, hatred is our way, not noble stubborness.
We want Lords that are actually worthy of the gods favour, that are customisable and unique to our warbands.
We want a refined Chaos Codex 3.5, not a "At least it isn't 4th" 6th Ed codex. Before the tirade of hate from anyone who hated the IW spam from 3.5, notice I said a refined 3.5, not a carbon copy. 4th and 6th are almost totally different armies. Unless you played Chaos in third you have no idea how frustrating it was that our codex got ripped in half. The Daemon side got expanded with new fluff, new units and a new play style. The Traitor side got given sub-par marines with spikes. Then 6th ignored all of our frustrations, gave us none of our character back and just gave us robot dinosaurs and two Legion specific HQs that now everyone could use.
That is what we are upset about, not codex creep, or what tier we are. That our codex lost it's flavour. Go ask a Black Templar player, would they rather have a bottom tier codex or be a line of text in the space marine codex?
That's what I've been saying. CSM players haven't been happy about their codex since third edition, this is really no change. Hell, CSM players whined a lot about the 3rd edition codex, too, for that matter.
Melissia wrote: That's what I've been saying. CSM players haven't been happy about their codex since third edition, this is really no change. Hell, CSM players whined a lot about the 3rd edition codex, too, for that matter.
Are you for or against the dissatisfied Tyranid, Black Templar, and Chaos Space marine players who have gone through two, and now it seems it will be three; whole editions where they've had to play with bad books and had to have fun and win in spite of and not because of their codexes?
Melissia wrote: That's what I've been saying. CSM players haven't been happy about their codex since third edition, this is really no change. Hell, CSM players whined a lot about the 3rd edition codex, too, for that matter.
Having played in the days of the original 3rd edition Codex written by Jervis Johnson, there was a lot of complaints then, mostly due to the fact that the new units we got (Obliterators and Raptors) sucked. Obliterators were so bad that not only did they have to get a Chapter Approved upping their toughness, but they also got new models sculpted because the original models were so awful as to not even have the word to describe them. IIRC Cult Terminators were also added in a CA article. It was so bad that arguably the "Black Codex" rules in the 3rd edition rulebook (the ones meant to tide you over from 2nd until a real codex was released) was better for Chaos than the 3rd edition codex.
The IA articles were the best thing to ever come in 40k if you ask me, because for that brief period of time every SM/CSM army could be fielded in a unique way suited to their backstory. Raven Guard and White Scars and Imperial Fists fought very differently, as did Word Bearers and Alpha Legion and Iron Warriors. It was beautiful.
Melissia wrote: That's what I've been saying. CSM players haven't been happy about their codex since third edition, this is really no change. Hell, CSM players whined a lot about the 3rd edition codex, too, for that matter.
Are you for or against the dissatisfied Tyranid, Black Templar, and Chaos Space marine players who have gone through two, and now it seems it will be three; whole editions where they've had to play with bad books and had to have fun and win in spite of and not because of their codexes?
Last time i checked Black Templars are in a good book (If you count C:SM).
Melissia wrote: That's what I've been saying. CSM players haven't been happy about their codex since third edition, this is really no change. Hell, CSM players whined a lot about the 3rd edition codex, too, for that matter.
Are you for or against the dissatisfied Tyranid, Black Templar, and Chaos Space marine players who have gone through two, and now it seems it will be three; whole editions where they've had to play with bad books and had to have fun and win in spite of and not because of their codexes?
Last time i checked Black Templars are in a good book (If you count C:SM).
I actually feel for the BT since they had their own codex and then were just lumped into C:SM despite being one of the few chapters that actually deserve their own codex due to their unorthodox combat doctrines. Much more so than, for example, Dark Angels that outside of Ravenwing/Deathwing (both of which should really be default allowed in any SM army as there is the 8th company which could be fielded as all bikers, and the 1st company which could be all Terminators) are basically Marines with more robes; they fight the same as any other chapter. Arguably Blood Angels don't deserve their own codex either although they've become more unique in later editions with the Furioso (which I remember being the *name* of the BA Dreadnought, not a type) and the Baal Predator and the like.
What they should really do is have one codex for the more codex-oriented chapters that don't differ a lot as they don't need more than a little bit of rules to allow them (e.g. Ultras, Fists, Dark Angels, possibly Raven Guard, possibly Salamanders), and one codex for the real fringe chapters like Black Templars, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, possibly Scars and the like. Then the same thing for Chaos: One codex with the Big Four, and one with the Traitor Legions, and arguably one for Lost & the Damned stuff with lots of Cultists, Beastmen and other gribblies.
Melissia wrote: That's what I've been saying. CSM players haven't been happy about their codex since third edition, this is really no change. Hell, CSM players whined a lot about the 3rd edition codex, too, for that matter.
Are you for or against the dissatisfied Tyranid, Black Templar, and Chaos Space marine players who have gone through two, and now it seems it will be three; whole editions where they've had to play with bad books and had to have fun and win in spite of and not because of their codexes?
Last time i checked Black Templars are in a good book (If you count C:SM).
Black Templars chapter tactics and special characters are terrible.
Kain wrote: Are you for or against the dissatisfied Tyranid, Black Templar, and Chaos Space marine players who have gone through two, and now it seems it will be three; whole editions where they've had to play with bad books and had to have fun and win in spite of and not because of their codexes?
The first thought in my head when I read this post was "Still less reason to complain than Sisters of Battle players."
You've gotten new units. Last time we got a n6ew unit that wasn't just a rehashed old unit was third edition. Our rules have been watered down with two poorly thought out "codices" (neither of which actually had its own print book) since then-- only two, in spite of there having been four new editions released since then. At least you have plastic infantry models. We're still using metal models for our infantry that were released in second edition, and many of them are out of stock.
Don't act like I don't know what it's like to play a codex that's been ignored and hasn't been given the attention it deserves. You are a fool if you think that.
Kain wrote: Are you for or against the dissatisfied Tyranid, Black Templar, and Chaos Space marine players who have gone through two, and now it seems it will be three; whole editions where they've had to play with bad books and had to have fun and win in spite of and not because of their codexes?
The first thought in my head when I read this post was "Still less reason to complain than Sisters of Battle players."
You've gotten new units. Last time we got a n6ew unit that wasn't just a rehashed old unit was third edition. Our rules have been watered down with two poorly thought out "codices" (neither of which actually had its own print book) since then-- only two, in spite of there having been four new editions released since then. At least you have plastic infantry models. We're still using metal models for our infantry that were released in second edition, and many of them are out of stock.
Don't act like I don't know what it's like to play a codex that's been ignored and hasn't been given the attention it deserves. You are a fool if you think that.
...But that argument is flawed. That it is worse elsewhere does not make it anywhere near good here.
Kain wrote: Are you for or against the dissatisfied Tyranid, Black Templar, and Chaos Space marine players who have gone through two, and now it seems it will be three; whole editions where they've had to play with bad books and had to have fun and win in spite of and not because of their codexes?
The first thought in my head when I read this post was "Still less reason to complain than Sisters of Battle players."
You've gotten new units. Last time we got a n6ew unit that wasn't just a rehashed old unit was third edition. Our rules have been watered down with two poorly thought out "codices" (neither of which actually had its own print book) since then-- only two, in spite of there having been four new editions released since then. At least you have plastic infantry models. We're still using metal models for our infantry that were released in second edition, and many of them are out of stock.
Don't act like I don't know what it's like to play a codex that's been ignored and hasn't been given the attention it deserves. You are a fool if you think that.
I never implied that SoBs do not have reason to complain.
And "don't complain, there are starving kids in Africa" is a terrible method to try and dismiss other people's dissatisfaction.
Just because others have it worse does not make your problems any less valid.
The neglected and unloved armies of 40k should be banding with one another against the true enemy; GW which sticks us with writers who don't like or get our armies time after time, completely ignore our complaints, and all their apologists who insist that we should compromise on our army's character or that nothing is wrong.
We shouldn't be fighting each other.
Tyranid, Chaos Space Marine, SoB, and Black Templar in hand, standing side by side against all comers.
Kain wrote: Are you for or against the dissatisfied Tyranid, Black Templar, and Chaos Space marine players who have gone through two, and now it seems it will be three; whole editions where they've had to play with bad books and had to have fun and win in spite of and not because of their codexes?
The first thought in my head when I read this post was "Still less reason to complain than Sisters of Battle players."
You've gotten new units. Last time we got a n6ew unit that wasn't just a rehashed old unit was third edition. Our rules have been watered down with two poorly thought out "codices" (neither of which actually had its own print book) since then-- only two, in spite of there having been four new editions released since then. At least you have plastic infantry models. We're still using metal models for our infantry that were released in second edition, and many of them are out of stock.
Don't act like I don't know what it's like to play a codex that's been ignored and hasn't been given the attention it deserves. You are a fool if you think that.
You know... while I sympathize in all honesty I doubt the SoB ever were meant to be a legit army, and I'm rather confused that they have such a devout cult following (irony?) as they never seemed to really be that well represented or supported from the start. I remember when they were first released at the end of 2nd and even then it seemed like they were intended more as an allied force to do some kind of themed combined arms Imperial army or for scenarios, never a full blown army like Eldar or Space Marines or Tyranids.
Of course, the same was intended for Necrons when they came out; they were never meant to be a full blown army either that I can remember and just kind of expanded into it.
WayneTheGame wrote: You know... while I sympathize in all honesty I doubt the SoB ever were meant to be a legit army, and I'm rather confused that they have such a devout cult following (irony?) as they never seemed to really be that well represented or supported from the start. I remember when they were first released at the end of 2nd and even then it seemed like they were intended more as an allied force to do some kind of themed combined arms Imperial army or for scenarios, never a full blown army like Eldar or Space Marines or Tyranids.
Why do CSM players still like the CSM concept even though it's almost universally agreed that CSMs have been poorly done in every single edition ever? And even though it's blatantly apparent that they're not the main force of Chaos, they're just one of many factions and most of the time Chaos isn't represented by them at all?
WayneTheGame wrote: You know... while I sympathize in all honesty I doubt the SoB ever were meant to be a legit army, and I'm rather confused that they have such a devout cult following (irony?) as they never seemed to really be that well represented or supported from the start. I remember when they were first released at the end of 2nd and even then it seemed like they were intended more as an allied force to do some kind of themed combined arms Imperial army or for scenarios, never a full blown army like Eldar or Space Marines or Tyranids.
Why do CSM players still like the CSM concept even though it's almost universally agreed that CSMs have been poorly done in every single edition ever?
Because Chaos are an integral part of what makes the setting 40k. With all due respect, you could take out a lot of things from 40k and the setting really wouldn't be any different. But Chaos has always been the overarching bad guy.
I'm not saying SoB don't deserve to be fleshed out, just that I don't think they ever were meant to be a complete army, ever, in the same vein as in 2nd edition you could have Adeptus Arbites but they were never intended as a complete army either. SoB always felt like they were in that category; better served alongside another army (Inquisitors and/or IG, likely) rather than an entire army of them.
Melissia wrote: That's what I've been saying. CSM players haven't been happy about their codex since third edition, this is really no change. Hell, CSM players whined a lot about the 3rd edition codex, too, for that matter.
Except a lot of us aren't just whining. We stopped playing, along with Nid, Templar and Sisters players who loved the game for the background and when our preferred codices stopped representing that background for 2-3-4 editions, we gave up hoping for a return to the old days.
I'm not saying that people wouldn't complain, you can't please everyone. But look at Dark Eldar, they got the codex that they deserved, one that made the army fun to play in the way it was designed to be played, if albeit not a super powered codex. Competitive players will always find complaints when the meta shifts a codex down a tier but I talking about the soul and substance of what made these armies interesting. A new edition can save poor viability, but GW never seem to address the things that give us flavour.
WayneTheGame wrote: Because Chaos are an integral part of what makes the setting 40k.
They're a minor faction that could disappear fro mthe setting without much impact.
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KorPhaeron77 wrote: Except a lot of us aren't just whining. We stopped playing
I don't know why you think these two are mutually exclusive
KorPhaeron77 wrote: A new edition can save poor viability, but GW never seem to address the things that give us flavour.
Well yes, but that's not really a NEW problem...
While I am critical of the idea that Chaos is the centre of the setting or even the central antagonist, I must object to the idea that you could remove or replace Chaos without changing a great deal of 40k.
Fair point, but I didn't think that this was a list of new problems, but more of a list of what could make it better again. Seriously, it isn't a big ask. Get Chaos 3.5, go through, balance it better than it was, remove the Daemons...add the new units that weren't around then...voila...new codex. They can be middle tier for all I care but if we suddenly get back a list of different ways to play them fluffy and not shatteringly broken or terrible, then most of us would be happy and any unhappy comp players could still wait around for a new edition or faq to suddenly swing the power creep back our way.
GW are supposed to be all about "forge the narrative" well if nothing else, this would go along way to doing that.
WayneTheGame wrote: Because Chaos are an integral part of what makes the setting 40k.
They're a minor faction that could disappear entirely from the setting without much impact.
You are an extremely biased and malicious person, Melissia. Your above statement is objectively false, and there is no arguing there.
I've seen you stalking all threads related to issues with the CSM, repeatedly calling their players "whiners" and the faction itself "minor", "insignificant" and the like. You are constantly behaving in an impolite, spiteful and obstinate manner that is in no way, shape or form constructive to the discussion at hand. I think you should be reported to the mods for your exceedingly rude and irritating behaviour.
Medium of Death wrote: Chaos is massively important in the setting. CSM are just the poster boys at the moment.
They should make CSM weirder. Have less marines surrounded by cultists, mutants and daemons.
I would love to see CSMs become less CSM and more Lost and the Damned w/CSMs in them. I might even be tempted to play then, as long as I wasn't forced to use CSMs.
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SarisKhan wrote: You are an extremely biased and malicious person
At least I'm not claiming people who have different opinions of me are cruel and mean trolls (IE, "malicious", full of malice and intent to harm). I've done nothing but express my opinion about plastic soldiers in a forum whereupon we talk about the plastic soldiers we love so much.
Ashiraya wrote: ...But that argument is flawed. That it is worse elsewhere does not make it anywhere near good here.
I never said you had it good. Stop making gak up and claiming I said it.
It's very dishonest and is one of my biggest pet peeves.
No, YOU are making gak up. You did not say it was good, but you implied that the complaining was unnecessary/excessive, which it would not be if it was bad.
Medium of Death wrote: Chaos is massively important in the setting. CSM are just the poster boys at the moment.
They should make CSM weirder. Have less marines surrounded by cultists, mutants and daemons.
I would love to see CSMs become less CSM and more Lost and the Damned w/CSMs in them. I might even be tempted to play then, as long as I wasn't forced to use CSMs.
That's a LatD army though, not CSM. And while that should exist, it should be its own army not replace Chaos Space Marines. If you skipped over it go back and read my quotes from the 2nd edition and 3.5 Codex - there's always been technically three types of Chaos: Lost and the Damned (Cultists, mutants, some daemons), Daemons, and the Traitor Legions. These things used to have a bit of separation but allow for playing a mixed warband if you chose. The 6e codex threw them all back together, poorly, without any of the identity of any of them. Not that it'd ever happen but I'd rather have three Chaos codexes than four Space Marine codexes and umpteen supplements that aren't needed.
Ashiraya wrote: You did not say it was good, but you implied that the complaining was unnecessary/excessive, which it would not be if it was bad.
No I didn't. I merely offered historical perspective, because it appeared to me that people were acting like this was somehow a new problem that CSMs were facing.
Melissia wrote: Stop making gak up and claiming I said it.
It's very dishonest and is one of my biggest pet peeves.
Good is a relative term. CSM have it good... In comparison to SoB. They are on par with Nids, maybe having it somewhat better, but when you look at SM who at least haveCT (Even if they are not perfect) then complaining on the complaining becomes asinine rather fast. I made no gak up.
No I didn't. I merely offered historical perspective, because it appeared to me that people were acting like this was somehow a new problem that CSMs were facing.
So you just misunderstood, that's alright, no reason to get your jimmies rustled.
WayneTheGame wrote: That's a LatD army though, not CSM. And while that should exist, it should be its own army not replace Chaos Space Marines. If you skipped over it go back and read my quotes from the 2nd edition and 3.5 Codex - there's always been technically three types of Chaos: Lost and the Damned (Cultists, mutants, some daemons), Daemons, and the Traitor Legions. These things used to have a bit of separation. The 6e codex threw them all back together, poorly. Not that it'd ever happen but I'd rather have three Chaos codexes than four Space Marine codexes and umpteen supplements that aren't needed.
I actually agree here. It'd be better this way.
Though I should note that there are seven Space Marine codices plus umpteen supplements, rather than just four.
There would be far more variety in having LatD, Daemons, and CSMs, than having a bunch of SM codices, to be sure.
SarisKhan wrote: You are an extremely biased and malicious person
At least I'm not claiming people who have different opinions of me are cruel and mean trolls (IE, "malicious", full of malice and intent to harm). I've done nothing but express my opinion about plastic soldiers in a forum whereupon we talk about the plastic soldiers we love so much..
SarisKhan wrote: I've seen you stalking all threads related to issues with the CSM, repeatedly calling their players "whiners" and the faction itself "minor", "insignificant" and the like. You are constantly behaving in an impolite, spiteful and obstinate manner that is in no way, shape or form constructive to the discussion at hand. I think you should be reported to the mods for your exceedingly rude and irritating behaviour.
Just leave us alone, for the love of Gods.
Here's my reasoning. You've failed to include that in what you quoted.
Can we get back on track. I would genuinely love to hear other Chaos players views on what would make our codex good again and if they disagree with any of my points, what would they change. If you don't play Chaos and never did back in the day then that's fine but can we leave out the accusations of whining and the listing of armies that have a worse book than us. LATD should get their own thread if we are going to discuss what that should include. There are some really good points in this thread, let's not dilute it with personal bickering hey.
Ceann Fine wrote: Look there is always going to be some codices better then others in gw, it's always been that way so people need to relax on that matter for starters. What interest would gw ever have in balance? They just want to sell cool models and they do that quite well. So CSM aren't going to be able to write auto lists win like trip riptides or cronair before that but that doesn't mean they can't be competitive, they are just more challenging to play then some others. The only reason to bitch about CSM is in relation to the lack of a cohesive theme depending on factions and the poor fluff
What about people who play Chaos but don't play CSMs?
Chaos and CSM are not the same thing, but people seem to treat them like they are.
Think about it this way, anyway: If we had LatD, CSM, and Daemons as independent codices, they'd all be battle brothers, and each one being independent would allow there to be more CSM stuff in the CSM codex anyway. And they could ally with no problems at all, without using Unbound.
Melissia wrote: I do not feel any fear of repercussion for being reported for stating my opinion, and then defending it.
The thing is that you do not simply state opinions, that would be perfectly tolerable. Instead, you insist on calling CSM players "whiners" for voicing displeasure about valid, existing issues, denigrate the faction in a way that appears extremely spiteful, and keep "stating" your oppressively opposing opinions all the bloody time, preventing us from actually discussing the topic at hand.
Why do you keep posting in such threads? You do not contribute anything constructive, you just keep antagonising CSM players. Why?
SarisKhan wrote: for voicing displeasure about valid, existing issues, denigrate the faction in a way that appears extremely spiteful
I also say the same thing about Eldar, Sisters, Tau, and loyalist Space Marines. But apparently I guess I hate almost every faction that isn't Imperial Guard Or Orks now, just because I view them as a small part of a gigantic universe.
If you really want to talk about the topic at hand, you're welcome to join us. You know, instead of talking about me.
SarisKhan wrote: for voicing displeasure about valid, existing issues, denigrate the faction in a way that appears extremely spiteful
I also say the same thing about Eldar, Sisters, Tau, and loyalist Space Marines. But apparently I guess I hate almost every faction that isn't Imperial Guard Or Orks now, just because I view them as a small part of a gigantic universe.
If you really want to talk about the topic at hand, you're welcome to join us.
We're talking about CSM here. We discuss CSM. You come, call us "whiners" and denigrate the faction.
Also, good job dodging my questions. Yeah, feel free to poison other threads with your "opinions", I'm sure no one will mind. Because why would they? How could they? You're so objective and gentle about that.
KorPhaeron77 wrote: Can we get back on track. I would genuinely love to hear other Chaos players views on what would make our codex good again and if they disagree with any of my points, what would they change. If you don't play Chaos and never did back in the day then that's fine but can we leave out the accusations of whining and the listing of armies that have a worse book than us. LATD should get their own thread if we are going to discuss what that should include. There are some really good points in this thread, let's not dilute it with personal bickering hey.
I've got one that would give the army an entirely different feel to nomal marines, (I already do this with my havocs), and bring a bit of power back to the dex. Allow CSM units (as in the basic troop unit) to have upto 4 special weapons if at least 10 strong. Its nothing major yet allows each basic troop unit to be reasonably powerful and differentiates it from a basic C:SM unit. Having the current ability to take 2 spec wepons instead of atsknf, grav, pods etc etc, just doesn't cut it. You'd still be paying the points for it, a 10 man unit with no marks and 4 plasma guns would come to 190pts and still be wiped out as easily by nearby grav cents or focused serpent fire.
I'd say it'd be ripping off possessed, plague bearers and havocs more. Those are the units I have to take to be able to do it. Melta is also a nice one for it too.
And marks and mutations wont please iron warriors or nightlords players as fixes. Could work for other legions but I just don't see it being that effective game wise.
TheRedWingArmada wrote: I'm sorry, but I stopped reading at "CSM's aren't that important to 40k." Excuse me, but who is called "The Great Enemy?"
Thank you. Enough said.
That'd be the Chaos Gods. Not the Chaos Space Marines. What Melissia is getting at (and you're all proving it with every angry post) is that Chaos is much more than just CSM, just as the Imperium is more than just Space Marines.
TheRedWingArmada wrote: I'm sorry, but I stopped reading at "CSM's aren't that important to 40k." Excuse me, but who is called "The Great Enemy?"
Thank you. Enough said.
I think the distinction being made was Chaos vs. Chaos Marines.
Of which the power armoured variant of Chaos forces does make a surprisingly little percentage of the total forces of Chaos. Much like how Space Marines are a fraction of the total power of the Imperial forces.
Melissia wrote: What about people who play Chaos but don't play CSMs?
What about them?
As to ideas to make the codex good again (This is not meant specific to you Melissia) I would be content with proper costs of the units points-wise and some slight changes to the Champion of Chaos rule and the Veterans of the Long War rule. Of course I would have a lot of ideas for Chaos Space Marines to be shown like the true veterans and elite warriors that they are with Chaos Lords being close combat monsters which aren't underdogs compared to Chapter Masters and Legion rules with lots of flavour but I guess I understand that if factions are viewed at as products then GW has to make Space Marines a better product... Maybe this is the way to optimize profits.
As to why some are going loco about this, is that we had a good product which got worse and then another product picked up a splinter of the goodness and now Chaos Space Marines players are standing like an Italian football player who doesn't understand a certain verdict - "It's right there the solution!!! You already did it... It took a tiny space in a big book... What not do it again!?!?!" I myself can be pictured sitting on top a CEO or game designer in their chair in GW bitch slapping them with a fistful of money screaming "WHY!?!?! You don't like money!?!? See all this - it's yours... It's so easy... You've done it twice now... Tell me the secret as to why it's not a financial good idea!!!" Seriously - the day I'm told why GW withhold these rules, will be a bigger climax than when I saw the Da Vinci Code.
TheRedWingArmada wrote: I'm sorry, but I stopped reading at "CSM's aren't that important to 40k." Excuse me, but who is called "The Great Enemy?"
Thank you. Enough said.
I think the distinction being made was Chaos vs. Chaos Marines.
Of which the power armoured variant of Chaos forces does make a surprisingly little percentage of the total forces of Chaos. Much like how Space Marines are a fraction of the total power of the Imperial forces.
*Edit* Ninjas.
CSM tend to be in the most important battles, though, as well as leading lesser Chaos servants. No wonder they get attention.
LATD definitely could use their own codex however.
KorPhaeron77 wrote: Can we get back on track. I would genuinely love to hear other Chaos players views on what would make our codex good again and if they disagree with any of my points, what would they change. If you don't play Chaos and never did back in the day then that's fine but can we leave out the accusations of whining and the listing of armies that have a worse book than us. LATD should get their own thread if we are going to discuss what that should include. There are some really good points in this thread, let's not dilute it with personal bickering hey.
I've got one that would give the army an entirely different feel to nomal marines, (I already do this with my havocs), and bring a bit of power back to the dex. Allow CSM units (as in the basic troop unit) to have upto 4 special weapons if at least 10 strong. Its nothing major yet allows each basic troop unit to be reasonably powerful and differentiates it from a basic C:SM unit. Having the current ability to take 2 spec wepons instead of atsknf, grav, pods etc etc, just doesn't cut it. You'd still be paying the points for it, a 10 man unit with no marks and 4 plasma guns would come to 190pts and still be wiped out as easily by nearby grav cents or focused serpent fire.
Chaos Chosen already do this, and you only need a 6 man squad to max out your weapons effectiveness without buying extra bolters and ccw's. That said, while 6 is the golden number, I still think 10 for Transport purposes, minus 1 for every IC that joins the squad. Since Unbound came out, I can play my CSM's the way I think they should be played to make Challenges work. Each CC-Squad takes an extra Chaos Lord, that way you can switch between him and the sargeant when it comes to who is going to suicide and who is going to eat the squads lunch.
And for those wondering, "Why 6?" 1 is the Champ getting Melee and Ranged weapons. 4 of them are straight options and the last one is a "heavy weapons" option, which pretty much means Melta. So 6 man Chosen Squad with 5 melta's and a combi-melta.
CSM tend to be in the most important battles, though, as well as leading lesser Chaos servants. No wonder they get attention.
We're also only told about battles that include marines, both spikey or otherwise.
The fluff we have is filled with tales of power armoured dudes either saving the day or ruining it. In comparison, time devoted to the stories of ordinary humans (spikey and non spikey versions) is significantly less.
So I don't think its a matter of them being in more important battles, but that we're only being shown battles that have marines.
Omg, what's this thread called again? CSM - What do we do now? And yes, I'm well aware there are umpteen facets to Chaos, but when it comes to Real Space, the CSM's are the go-to, up there with psykers, because, as we should all know by now, Chaos has a problem with existing in real space without something to feed it Chaos energy. That's why the whole "Gray Knights" thing is so important. Because they stop Chaos from being fed on the battlefield to be sustained...supposedly.
Aside from that, let's do a roll call on how many books in Games Workshops Warhammer 40k actually represent Chaos and how many represent the Imperium.
Chaos has 4. Chaos Daemons, Chaos Space Marines, Black Legion and Crimson Slaughter.
Imperium has... what 8? IG/AM, Tempestus, SoB, Space Marines, BA, DA, BT. That is seven right there and I'm sure I'm forgetting something.
So CSM's make up about 3/4ths of the Chaos domain in game, while in story, they are the shunt for Daemons to enter realspace. Meanwhile in the Imperium....well, I think I've clarified enough now.
CSM's are kind of a big deal what with a whole Heresy and then Black Crusades and the All-Powerful Chaos Gods seducing them to their cause. Yeah. They are important.
What would 40k be without Space Marines, while we're on the subject? It would be Orkz v. Eldar.
Melissia wrote: What about people who play Chaos but don't play CSMs?
What about them?
Because not everyone who plays Chaos wants to play Chaos Space Marines. And yet people keep acting like that's the only choice we should have.
Besides, as I explained before, by adding more Chaos factions, we also increase the ability of CSM players to bring in more allies, so it DOES effect CSM players positively anyway.
It would help Alpha Legion, for example, to be able to include LatD allies. And there's the Blood Pact and other such fluffy armies that would be great additions to other Chaos Marine forces, if you really have to focus on them. Excellent Battle Brothers fodder.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
TheRedWingArmada wrote: Imperium has... what 8? IG/AM, Tempestus, SoB, Space Marines, BA, DA, BT. That is seven right there and I'm sure I'm forgetting something.
You're forgetting two, actually. GK, and Inquisition.
TheRedWingArmada wrote: Imperium has... what 8? IG/AM, Tempestus, SoB, Space Marines, BA, DA, BT. That is seven right there and I'm sure I'm forgetting something.
You're forgetting two, actually. GK, and Inquisition.
And SW. Since you are counting MT you may as well count IK too. That makes it eleven.
Yeah, a LATD codex is certainly in order...
Since you count BL and CS then you should count Clan Raukaan and Sentinels of Terra too.
TheRedWingArmada wrote: Imperium has... what 8? IG/AM, Tempestus, SoB, Space Marines, BA, DA, BT. That is seven right there and I'm sure I'm forgetting something.
You're forgetting two, actually. GK, and Inquisition.
And SW. Since you are counting MT you may as well count IK too. That makes it eleven.
Yeah, a LATD codex is certainly in order...
Oh right, forgot about the Imperial Knights. Yeah, definitely need more Xenos and Chaos codices, while the Imperium just needs to focus on updating older codices instead of adding new ones.
Now, if 40k didn't have IG or Orks, it wouldn't be 40k any more
But jokes aside, I'm still curious as to how slapping on a bunch of old special weapons makes CSMs "unique" as opposed to using Chaos-focused stuff like marks, mutations, or minor psychic powers or... anything, really.
Melissia wrote: Now, if 40k didn't have IG or Orks, it wouldn't be 40k any more
But jokes aside, I'm still curious as to how slapping on a bunch of old special weapons makes CSMs "unique" as opposed to using Chaos-focused stuff like marks, mutations, or minor psychic powers or... anything, really.
It is not enough. I do not think anyone is asking to reduce CSM to SM+weapons. If someone is I may have missed it and I do disagree with it if so, but CSM have a few things that should make them different from SM;
3. Army Theme (Instead of a tight-knit band of super-effective disciplined soldiers, CSM can be anything from just that to a mob of bloodthirsty berserkers to even smaller but very mighty spiteful veteran units...)
4. Available allies
5. Chaos wargear (Minor psychic powers and marks like you say, mutations as long as they are kept optional and mutationless is viable, different weapons and other equipment)
Melissia wrote: What about people who play Chaos but don't play CSMs?
What about them?
Because not everyone who plays Chaos wants to play Chaos Space Marines. And yet people keep acting like that's the only choice we should have.
Besides, as I explained before, by adding more Chaos factions, we also increase the ability of CSM players to bring in more allies, so it DOES effect CSM players positively anyway.
It would help Alpha Legion, for example, to be able to include LatD allies. And there's the Blood Pact and other such fluffy armies that would be great additions to other Chaos Marine forces, if you really have to focus on them. Excellent Battle Brothers fodder.
No I didn't mean that - I like all aspects of Chaos so yeah it would be great with a Lost and the Damned codex - I meant what about the people who want this? No one are keeping them down I think... They should start some threads or post in this thread if they want to... I certainly wouldn't call them whiners if they spoke up
KorPhaeron77 wrote: Can we get back on track. I would genuinely love to hear other Chaos players views on what would make our codex good again and if they disagree with any of my points, what would they change. If you don't play Chaos and never did back in the day then that's fine but can we leave out the accusations of whining and the listing of armies that have a worse book than us. LATD should get their own thread if we are going to discuss what that should include. There are some really good points in this thread, let's not dilute it with personal bickering hey.
I've got one that would give the army an entirely different feel to nomal marines, (I already do this with my havocs), and bring a bit of power back to the dex. Allow CSM units (as in the basic troop unit) to have upto 4 special weapons if at least 10 strong. Its nothing major yet allows each basic troop unit to be reasonably powerful and differentiates it from a basic C:SM unit. Having the current ability to take 2 spec wepons instead of atsknf, grav, pods etc etc, just doesn't cut it. You'd still be paying the points for it, a 10 man unit with no marks and 4 plasma guns would come to 190pts and still be wiped out as easily by nearby grav cents or focused serpent fire.
Chaos Chosen already do this, and you only need a 6 man squad to max out your weapons effectiveness without buying extra bolters and ccw's. That said, while 6 is the golden number, I still think 10 for Transport purposes, minus 1 for every IC that joins the squad. Since Unbound came out, I can play my CSM's the way I think they should be played to make Challenges work. Each CC-Squad takes an extra Chaos Lord, that way you can switch between him and the sargeant when it comes to who is going to suicide and who is going to eat the squads lunch.
And for those wondering, "Why 6?" 1 is the Champ getting Melee and Ranged weapons. 4 of them are straight options and the last one is a "heavy weapons" option, which pretty much means Melta. So 6 man Chosen Squad with 5 melta's and a combi-melta.
Thing is that involves paying premium for chosen and still having to fill troops slots somewhere if not going unbound. 13pt marines with the option of 4 spec weapins means no extra (chosen) tax. Havocs can already do this, but again do not fill up the required troops slots. If basic marine squads could do this the dex would have that bit more power. Also I would always prefer to have extra wounds in the squad so as not to lose a 23pt model with each casualty.
Hm, whilst the Lost and the damned were 'Damned' cool, I don't think a full codex would live up to expectations. A supplement? I think that would be better, perhaps they could do some kind of double supplement where it works for IG and CSM? who knows. But if any supplements are coming for chaos it would just be offensive for it not to be legions.
Mutations without marks would be nice too. Or CT style rules. Maybe machines that don't look like dinosaurs. I mean come on- not EVERY machine chaos ever touches mutates into a mini me of Godzilla.
MWHistorian wrote: Okay, Melissa doesn't like CSM. We get it. But many of us do. For some they're the reason they got into the game in the first place.
There are many that believe SOB should be squatted and I highly disagree with them. I also don't think CSM should be downplayed.
You liking CSMs doesn't make it any less rude to lie and claim that I wish to get rid of CSMs entirely.
And it is rude of you. Stop lying.
Poly Ranger wrote: Mutations without marks would be nice too. Or CT style rules. Maybe machines that don't look like dinosaurs. I mean come on- not EVERY machine chaos ever touches mutates into a mini me of Godzilla.
I think spider-walkers are cooler anyway. Chaos has some awesome looking automatons at times.
Melissia, I am totally with you on the LATD, they should have got a codex a long time ago. Or at the very least, a supplement to go with CSM. However, this thread is about what is wrong with the Chaos Space Marine codex and what needs to happen to bring them back to their peak.
LATD were an idea that while important to the setting, were never expanded on beyond the EOT campaign. We could do a whole thread and what they could include to make them a full army in 7th.
However Chaos Space Marines have already had a codex that represented them and their fluff. I've made the point several times now, but the problem is not more or less buffs, under or over powered. It's the frustration that GW got it right, or as close to right as we could ever be happy with. But then for some crazy reason, they ripped that codex into tiny pieces and pretend like it doesn't exist.
I don't want more armies to ally with until they fix the core force, the evil poster boys. Because if they didn't fix CSM first, if they did release LATD you can bet it would be guard with spikes and CC focus. Get the fluff representation right with CSM then move on to loftier goals. Personally I had a huge issue with Daemons being separated but 7th Allies and summoning somewhat fix that enough that I won't complain.
We don't need insane big new kits like the Heldrake was for 6th, just tweak the rules back to how they were when Legions and Warbands were both viable options (Real options, not do your best to pretend like we've had to since 4th) and maybe, just maybe, some new sculpts for our Troops.
I don't think GWs ever really thought highly of Chaos. They started as something that had a small handful of distinct units but was otherwise expected to use loyalist rules and units to fill out the army. That's what RT and 2nd edition have done, and when you looked at 3rd it's just an attempt to peal them away from loyalists but without giving them support. Often times their models were done as experiments or given to the most rookie sculptors which only shows how little they were cared about. Up until the Defiler the only truly distinct Chaos vehicle kit was the chaos dreadnought. Then you have their tanks which could justifiably have a different aesthetic than their Imperial counterparts but just get some poorly sculpted spikes to slap on, even SoB have large add-on panels that add new detail.
Maybe that's good enough for some and not a priority for others but it's a clear pattern of GW not caring.
I think the current codex is a good starting point but one that GW hasn't nurtured into what it should have expanded into through supplements. We have supplements to play precisely the type of armies the codex is meant to represent on its own.
The other problem with Chaos is that GW feels like it's an army that constantly needs to be penalized but without any real advantage to balance out the penalty. It's exemplified by how our dreadnoughts used to be and how our champions are now.
It's a challenge representing chaos because they can be legionaires or renegades and then different types of chaos worshippers. That's a lot more variations and combinations than any other single codex gets. Codex SM says you can be Raven Guard but that's something more fixed than say a legion that doesn't normally but can worship the chaos Gods.
I actually think GW should double down on the core codex being an Undivided chaos army, but that it should cover armies dedicated to the big four gods in supplements. In emphasizing chaos undivided I think it should actually mean expanding on all the different variations of chaos worshippers covered by that umbrella. You look at the different undivided armies and chaos means something so different to each. There are those who worship a chaos god, those who worship the chaos gods, those who worship a pantheon beyond the four, those who worship chaos in more abstract terms, and those who don't worship at all.
I think GW needs a new look at chaos that doesn't abandoned the old distinctions but just represents them differently. Rather than saying legions or renegades or which of the 4 gods or undivided... What's important should simply be the nature and degree of corruption and madness regardless of a chaos marines pre-fall labels. It would allow GW to refocus Chaos onto something more abstract yet representative in a way that can more manageably fit into a codex without so drastically unbalancing the meta, as the 3.5 codex did.
Sadly with this edition I think your options are to either not play in an overly competitive environment or play the list unbound or with allies in a way that's in good taste and backed up with fluff.
KorPhaeron77 wrote: But then for some crazy reason, they ripped that codex into tiny pieces and pretend like it doesn't exist.
Which is what happened to Lost and the Damned, whom HAD a codex and a legal army, but it was ripped and taken away and now they pretend it doesn't exist.
CSMs are not in that situation.
KorPhaeron77 wrote: I don't want more armies to ally with until they fix the core force, the evil poster boys. Because if they didn't fix CSM first, if they did release LATD you can bet it would be guard with spikes and CC focus. Get the fluff representation right with CSM then move on to loftier goals. Personally I had a huge issue with Daemons being separated but 7th Allies and summoning somewhat fix that enough that I won't complain.
Just because GW fethed up CSMs doesn't mean they'll feth up LatD. Just because they could get CSMs right doesn't mean they won't feth up LatD. The two are not related like that.
Also another thought: Which Chaos Space Marine armies are good is also going to depend on whether or not the rulebook favors shooting or assault. Right now, it definitely seems to favor shooting... so... how would Khorne and etc overcome that, without making them utterly broken if the game shifts back?
My gaming buddies and I have made a couple of house rules to correct some things we think are getting in the way of our fun.
1) Any codex can ally with any other codex as Allies of Convenience if it has a decent concept in line with the fluff.
Chaos Marines and Traitor Guard are a good example (for a LatD type army). Right now they are Come the Apocalypse. Same goes for a Genestealer Cult. GW's allies matrix is too simple and too restrictive and punishes players who are trying to 'Forge the Narrative' with burdensome penalties that hobble gameplay and make the game frustrating.
This gives the group oversight so that players can't abuse the allies rules. So a Genestealer Cult with IG platoons and Genestealers and Lictors is ok, but not if they start bringing storm troopers or a Hive Tyrant.
2) Any Psyker can take any discipline out of the BRB. Psykers cannot be required to take powers from their codex but may if they choose.
GW threw reason to the wind when everyone got Daemonology. Psychic powers are so random and difficult to cast now that it won't be anywhere near game breaking. If Ultramarines and Eldar can summon daemons then a Tzeentch Sorceror should be able to scry he future. If they want to get nuts, let's get nuts.
Melissia stop it's too painful I'll have to confess, a Lost and the Damned sells me more than CSM. I love CSM (really Tzeentch and KSons) but LatD edge them out for most appealing Chaos force. Honestly I feel it has far more than just supplement tier units. Imagine it! It is the Lost and the Damned. We are talking the most horridly twisted humans possible. Dregs of society standing up to revolt, mutants of varied types, combat drug addicted fanatics, chaos xenos forces, mercenaries, sorcerers, sacrificial forces. It's really more than just IG. It's a conglomerate of all of humanity and their outcasts. To say there isn't enough for a supplement is madness to me. I would so gladly "Forge the Narrative" with a force of LatD with a minor support of CSM finally rounded out with Daemon summonings. Oh yeah, and more Deffie like models. I love that machine of terror way too much.
Apologies for nerding out about the Lost and the Damned. Just sad that they got ripped away again. I loved them when they came out and actually built up a traitor guard force (heck, I bought forgefiends and the sorts for bits to make twisted vehicles) and the Come the Apoc was a massive punch in the gut for me.
CSM on their own are somewhat gak. The codex lacks in very many ways, but I've found it quite fluffy and fun to plug those holes with both Traitor Guard and Daemons (now both at the same time with unbound!).
Snipers to kill MCs from IG, as well as a CCC squad for some artillery. Some Vendettas for awesome firepower, some Daemons for more cost efficient close combat, while the CSM provide some tankyness and supporting fire.
I love my CSM, I really do. It's the only army I play, but I never play it without allies simply because the codex is really bad.
Yes I like where this is going! 11, 11, 10 that way you have the little one, the deffie, and then daddy grinder!
Spoiler:
It's so cute just don't let it hug you. Gosh darn it, I wish I could build a codex sometimes. Just all the possibilities....
Anyways CSM, competitive, do what we always do. Either not play the game or just go nurgle. For friends, house rule and just give up on certain units. Same as always. Also, build up our hatred and fervor into a furious wrath before finally uniting with our loyal siblings (SoB and BT) to take over the meta with true faith (I guess Guardsman with priests can join )
It's very dishonest and is one of my biggest pet peeves.
That's hilarious considering this:
Melissia wrote: Don't act like I don't know what it's like to play a codex that's been ignored and hasn't been given the attention it deserves. You are a fool if you think that.
If you dispute that this is what they were acting like, say it outright and provide reasons for it. I stand by my statement, and see no reason why I shouldn't.
You know, I can see most sides of this ridiculous argument.
My last remaining armies are Tyranids, C:SM(Formerly BT, now homebrew), CSM, Daemons, SoB, and an Eldar army I am selling off.
I play most of what are considered the worst armies in the game right now and I find it ridiculous to say that SoB is a bad codex. The faction is neglected, I want them to get a serious codex and soon, but the codex they have now is fantastic as far as fluff and feel. When I play my Sisters and there is flamers and meltas pouring out of every unit in spades I feel like I am playing SISTERS. I love them.
CSM I feel fine playing them, but I play a hodge podge list without a legion in mind or even a specific god. I can understand the frustration of plays who want to play their favorite legion because this codex is terrible for that. At the same time I feel like it is reaching for the past to want the legions back, the same way that I feel that it is a sad fact that Tyranids will never again be the versatility force they were in 4th...
Speaking of Tyranids, here is what I consider a BAD codex. So many just flat out useless units, so many units that can't even do what they are designed to do, such a hostile edition to the most basic play style of the army. The best Tyranid list is above par, the best of the best from this codex can truly be a terror to a fluffy list or a casual list. A casual or fluffy list from the Tyranid codex will be rolled by a decent casual list. I love my Tyranids but it is so hard for me to even give a damn about them because they are in such a state of imbalance, unfluffy play style, and just terrible feeling. I feel like I am playing a very generic faction because most of the Tyranid units boil down to a base stat line without many special abilities or fluff upgrades.
Another thing I don't like that they did was that they added extra daemon engines, but the wrong kind. There were already daemon engines in the fluff from the old Epic Space Marine, they didn't need to make up crap like the Defiler, Heldrake (although at least that could be considered the Doom Wing) and the Dino-fiends. Daemon Engines should have been things roughly like how the Knights are now - quasi-superheavies that you field one of as a centerpiece, if they were dead set on including them in 40k at all. Basically how Forge World presents them.
If i could have something for CSM, i would do the same thing for SM and that would be, Tome like codex's
Stuff all the Space Marines into one, and CSM into another.
while they are at it, each marine army would be their own army, with CT and all that goodness.
CSM would then get the SM type treatment, and we would see a section for thousand sons, black legion, etc etc each with their own inner section.
if i wanted a layout... mmmmm those HH books from FW get it pretty damn spot on.
overall army units, then each Legion/Chapter specific units, with the bonus' etc.
Because of each chapter of marines and there is how many in one codex, then surely they can do something similar for chaos, and to say that the legions only fight as warbands, ISNT that what we put on the table, or did i miss someone fielding a FULL CHAPTER/LEGION at some point in a game under 50,000 points.... so "warbands" are just as valid as chapters where the game is concerned.
other things that could make a nice difference for CSM would be make the marks mean something. for example the TZ mark, gives +1 to inv. now who would pay more if it made bolter weapons AP3 and SB (yes i know SB is lame BUT its a bonus). Or say nurgle, instead of +1T, you pay more so that it has the FNP (maybe a 6+ rather than the 5 depending on cost) and stealth.. that way when you Mark things your really making them part of the cult that would go with the god. (admitidly nurgles would be the hardest to work without it being OP but im sure something could be done)
these are just someways i would start fixing things up
WayneTheGame wrote: Another thing I don't like that they did was that they added extra daemon engines, but the wrong kind. There were already daemon engines in the fluff from the old Epic Space Marine, they didn't need to make up crap like the Defiler, Heldrake (although at least that could be considered the Doom Wing) and the Dino-fiends. Daemon Engines should have been things roughly like how the Knights are now - quasi-superheavies that you field one of as a centerpiece, if they were dead set on including them in 40k at all. Basically how Forge World presents them.
You mean just like the Khorne Dozer? Based on the old epic super heavies...but you see how that turned out. Overpriced (in points) and ridiculed by the very fans it was made for.
I like the Deffie, but its rules are pretty bad at present, being too expensive for what it does and trying to fill wildly different roles at the same time.
Melissia wrote: Now, if 40k didn't have IG or Orks, it wouldn't be 40k any more
But jokes aside, I'm still curious as to how slapping on a bunch of old special weapons makes CSMs "unique" as opposed to using Chaos-focused stuff like marks, mutations, or minor psychic powers or... anything, really.
No. 40K without Space Marines would be a bankrupt GW. 40K without IG would just be GW raking slightly lower profits. Space Marines are the poster boys for a reason- they sell.
aka_mythos wrote: I don't think GWs ever really thought highly of Chaos. They started as something that had a small handful of distinct units but was otherwise expected to use loyalist rules and units to fill out the army. That's what RT and 2nd edition have done, and when you looked at 3rd it's just an attempt to peal them away from loyalists but without giving them support. Often times their models were done as experiments or given to the most rookie sculptors which only shows how little they were cared about. Up until the Defiler the only truly distinct Chaos vehicle kit was the chaos dreadnought. Then you have their tanks which could justifiably have a different aesthetic than their Imperial counterparts but just get some poorly sculpted spikes to slap on, even SoB have large add-on panels that add new detail.
Maybe that's good enough for some and not a priority for others but it's a clear pattern of GW not caring.
I think the current codex is a good starting point but one that GW hasn't nurtured into what it should have expanded into through supplements. We have supplements to play precisely the type of armies the codex is meant to represent on its own.
The other problem with Chaos is that GW feels like it's an army that constantly needs to be penalized but without any real advantage to balance out the penalty. It's exemplified by how our dreadnoughts used to be and how our champions are now.
It's a challenge representing chaos because they can be legionaires or renegades and then different types of chaos worshippers. That's a lot more variations and combinations than any other single codex gets. Codex SM says you can be Raven Guard but that's something more fixed than say a legion that doesn't normally but can worship the chaos Gods.
I actually think GW should double down on the core codex being an Undivided chaos army, but that it should cover armies dedicated to the big four gods in supplements. In emphasizing chaos undivided I think it should actually mean expanding on all the different variations of chaos worshippers covered by that umbrella. You look at the different undivided armies and chaos means something so different to each. There are those who worship a chaos god, those who worship the chaos gods, those who worship a pantheon beyond the four, those who worship chaos in more abstract terms, and those who don't worship at all.
I think GW needs a new look at chaos that doesn't abandoned the old distinctions but just represents them differently. Rather than saying legions or renegades or which of the 4 gods or undivided... What's important should simply be the nature and degree of corruption and madness regardless of a chaos marines pre-fall labels. It would allow GW to refocus Chaos onto something more abstract yet representative in a way that can more manageably fit into a codex without so drastically unbalancing the meta, as the 3.5 codex did.
Sadly with this edition I think your options are to either not play in an overly competitive environment or play the list unbound or with allies in a way that's in good taste and backed up with fluff.
aka_mythos wrote: I don't think GWs ever really thought highly of Chaos. They started as something that had a small handful of distinct units but was otherwise expected to use loyalist rules and units to fill out the army. That's what RT and 2nd edition have done, and when you looked at 3rd it's just an attempt to peal them away from loyalists but without giving them support. Often times their models were done as experiments or given to the most rookie sculptors which only shows how little they were cared about. Up until the Defiler the only truly distinct Chaos vehicle kit was the chaos dreadnought. Then you have their tanks which could justifiably have a different aesthetic than their Imperial counterparts but just get some poorly sculpted spikes to slap on, even SoB have large add-on panels that add new detail.
Maybe that's good enough for some and not a priority for others but it's a clear pattern of GW not caring.
I think the current codex is a good starting point but one that GW hasn't nurtured into what it should have expanded into through supplements. We have supplements to play precisely the type of armies the codex is meant to represent on its own.
The other problem with Chaos is that GW feels like it's an army that constantly needs to be penalized but without any real advantage to balance out the penalty. It's exemplified by how our dreadnoughts used to be and how our champions are now.
It's a challenge representing chaos because they can be legionaires or renegades and then different types of chaos worshippers. That's a lot more variations and combinations than any other single codex gets. Codex SM says you can be Raven Guard but that's something more fixed than say a legion that doesn't normally but can worship the chaos Gods.
I actually think GW should double down on the core codex being an Undivided chaos army, but that it should cover armies dedicated to the big four gods in supplements. In emphasizing chaos undivided I think it should actually mean expanding on all the different variations of chaos worshippers covered by that umbrella. You look at the different undivided armies and chaos means something so different to each. There are those who worship a chaos god, those who worship the chaos gods, those who worship a pantheon beyond the four, those who worship chaos in more abstract terms, and those who don't worship at all.
I think GW needs a new look at chaos that doesn't abandoned the old distinctions but just represents them differently. Rather than saying legions or renegades or which of the 4 gods or undivided... What's important should simply be the nature and degree of corruption and madness regardless of a chaos marines pre-fall labels. It would allow GW to refocus Chaos onto something more abstract yet representative in a way that can more manageably fit into a codex without so drastically unbalancing the meta, as the 3.5 codex did.
Sadly with this edition I think your options are to either not play in an overly competitive environment or play the list unbound or with allies in a way that's in good taste and backed up with fluff.
Oh, cmon guys. It's not that bad. Just get your opponents agreement to the personal changes you've made to the army and play it like you want to, right? Forge the Narrative.
In the meantime, I'll go sit in the corner with my "barely a codex" codex, that still doesn't have 7E FAQ updates, and basically 5 usable units...
i remember this book, wasnt it CSM + Daemons? then they expanded on it and split the codexs up, like say Marines? and everyone else, and the marines got better?
On a stat-line and war-gear basis, anything from the 2nd edition Chaos codex could kick their modern equivalent's ass. But with the dramatic change in points value from 2nd to third, everything costs about 1/3 to 1/4 as much (in points) now.
I played Chaos in second ed. My characters were invincible and when I managed to summon a Bloodthirster (made from a Hero Quest gargoyle lol) it was game over. People must have thought I was a jerk. I was 11-14 years old. I'm actually glad I didn't choose Tau because I liked their fluff. Everyone would call me WAAC.
Yes and no. The B.S. to-hit chart is the same, as is the S vs T to wound chart. the biggest changes were to close combat, vehicles, cover saves and AP vs save and to-hit modifiers. As many units have the same stat line from 2nd edition as have new stats.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, I believe that Chaos, specifically, Horus and his "Heresy", along the space marine legions that were loyal to him, is a major tent-pole to the background of the game. Eldar, Orks and to some extent the Necrons are all also integral to the background by way of relation to the "Old Ones" and the setting of the Galazy before the rise of Mankind. The Tyranids, Tau, and Dark Eldar, however, not so much.
But none of this answers what us Chaos players should do, or even can do.
If you're lucky enough to be in a position where you can house rule, a tweaked version of the codex or a fandex - though the latter may not carry the best reputation...
Or we wait eternally for a decent codex from GW, those of us still in with GW.
Or we play older editions.
These are the options I see for Chaos Marine players right now. And I genuinely feel bad for those who have to play pick up games, because the only option for them really is the second.
In a world where more people are opening up to comp and modified games, I think the first option is certainly more viable than it once was.
Speaking of Tyranids, here is what I consider a BAD codex. So many just flat out useless units, so many units that can't even do what they are designed to do, such a hostile edition to the most basic play style of the army. The best Tyranid list is above par, the best of the best from this codex can truly be a terror to a fluffy list or a casual list. A casual or fluffy list from the Tyranid codex will be rolled by a decent casual list. I love my Tyranids but it is so hard for me to even give a damn about them because they are in such a state of imbalance, unfluffy play style, and just terrible feeling. I feel like I am playing a very generic faction because most of the Tyranid units boil down to a base stat line without many special abilities or fluff upgrades.
See, I disagree with this, and a few people have said it. 'nids and CSM were my largest armies, and while I didn't like the new nids codex, I didn't feel like it was a mono-build as CSM. I could still reasonably use swarms and MCs, albeit they, of course, changed it so Termagants replaced Hormagaunts and Carnifexes replaced Trygons, but I still could experiment with different units and my 5th army wasn't blown off the table if I fielded it as-is. With CSMs, any attempt to use Terminators or Khorne Berserkers is laughably futile.
Well if someone really wanted to say GW doesn't care about Chaos, they should play Warriors of Chaos in WHFB and then they'll see that Chaos is having a great time.
Melissia wrote: That's what I've been saying. CSM players haven't been happy about their codex since third edition, this is really no change. Hell, CSM players whined a lot about the 3rd edition codex, too, for that matter.
Are you for or against the dissatisfied Tyranid, Black Templar, and Chaos Space marine players who have gone through two, and now it seems it will be three; whole editions where they've had to play with bad books and had to have fun and win in spite of and not because of their codexes?
Last time i checked Black Templars are in a good book (If you count C:SM).
Black Templars chapter tactics and special characters are terrible.
WE WANT CHAOS SPACE MARINES. NOT CHAOS VIKINGS. NOT CHAOS DAEMONS. NOT EVEN CHAOS GUARD.
CHAOS. SPACE. MARINES.
If Games Workshop can waste every drop of blood and every penny making the fanboys the best things evar, then they can do the same damn thing with Chaos Space Marines and pretend like they give a damn in the first place.
Here look! I'll do it first. Space Marines have Plasma Cannons. Chaos Space Marines can have Ectoplasma Cannons, just like the Forgefiends do! See! I didn't really care what it was called either AND I filled a niche that was missing in the Chaos Armories and it took me all of 10 seconds to do!
Games Workshop gets paid to do their job, so they should freaking do it per the demands of their clientelle.
Hell, at this point, I'd rather everyone have an OP/WAAC Codex of their armies, than this ridiculous and obviously biased attempt at a balancing act that is anything but.
What we have here is simple; someones favorite not knowing how to share because then they wouldn't feel like the favorite anymore. And if SM players wanted to prove me wrong, they would demand a better Chaos Codex as well, JUST SO THEY'D HAVE SOMETHING TO PLAY AGAINST THAT WASN'T TAU FOR A CHANGE.
I still totally enjoy playing my CSM. while their performance on the table top isnt the best, i have been having pretty good luck with them. So much so that i have been nerfing the lists i field so as not to feel like a jerk and i JUST bought a hell drake. While i totally agree with most of what you have to say, i feel like persons like yourself (and myself) who play a themed list (all nurgle) are already hitting themselves with a nerf in terms of the lists and the units we can field. GW does not see chaos as a stand alone nurgle or khorn only army. I feel as do several of my buddies who are long term chaos collectors that GW expects us to play all the marks. One of my best freinds went to Ard boys final round playing a One of Each style list with one unit of plague marines, one unit of 1000 sons etc. it was a very effective list. Admittedly he also had 9 oblits in there and they kicked royal arse but its ard boys. Moral of the story. I have started to branch out and build some unmarked and non-nurgle themed stuff. Khorn chosen with black legion can be really nasty. I have started playing with more of the codex, even mutilators. And if you are consistently getting your face stomped in by opponents with really nasty lists, maybe look for fluffier players who are less liable to field neckbeard style lists.
i remember this book, wasnt it CSM + Daemons? then they expanded on it and split the codexs up, like say Marines? and everyone else, and the marines got better?
2nd edition Codex: Chaos had daemons (as in all daemons), cultists and beastmen/mutants in an appendix. The main book was for the Traitor Legions because that was what everyone wanted, and the other stuff was basically so they could throw a bone to the handful of people who had daemon world/cultist/weirdo armies from the RT days.
Here look! I'll do it first. Space Marines have Plasma Cannons. Chaos Space Marines can have Ectoplasma Cannons, just like the Forgefiends do! See! I didn't really care what it was called either AND I filled a niche that was missing in the Chaos Armories and it took me all of 10 ...
I kept saying this before this most recent codex edition: giving Chaos marines developed as it's own character isn't about what they do or don't have as much as it's story about how they've used what's at their disposal to compensate for a short coming. What you point out here is exactly that and what there needs to be more. Daemon engines have been a good answer to prior notion that Chaos didn't have all the Imperium's toys and a general lack of innovation despite walking away with half the Mechanicum. They should be an army with weapons developed from a Mechanicum unfettered from its hangups about alien technology or it's willingness to perverse sacred technology. Until daemon engines it felt like an army whose equipment was held together by some less than evil duck-tape. Daemon engines were a start but as you point out it didn't go far enough.
Here look! I'll do it first. Space Marines have Plasma Cannons. Chaos Space Marines can have Ectoplasma Cannons, just like the Forgefiends do! See! I didn't really care what it was called either AND I filled a niche that was missing in the Chaos Armories and it took me all of 10 ...
I kept saying this before this most recent codex edition: giving Chaos marines developed as it's own character isn't about what they do or don't have as much as it's story about how they've used what's at their disposal to compensate for a short coming. What you point out here is exactly that and what there needs to be more. Daemon engines have been a good answer to prior notion that Chaos didn't have all the Imperium's toys and a general lack of innovation despite walking away with half the Mechanicum. They should be an army with weapons developed from a Mechanicum unfettered from its hangups about alien technology or it's willingness to perverse sacred technology. Until daemon engines it felt like an army whose equipment was held together by some less than evil duck-tape. Daemon engines were a start but as you point out it didn't go far enough.
Agreed. But I'd say that the Forgefiend went far enough, just in the wrong direction. We need more "Deamon" and "Engine" and less "Dino" and "Bot." We need something that looks like it came from the feverish nightmares of a madman, not the script of Power Rangers.
(Which is a shame because technically speaking, the Forgefiend is a fantastic model.)
StarTrotter wrote:So gotta ask, what's everybodie's opinion of Daemon engines like the Deffie? There's complaints at the dinobots but what of them?
The Defiler is my favorite of the demon engines. It actually looks like a crazy machine that had a demon imprisoned in it. The heldrake, helbrute, and both the fiends lack this aesthetic. They all come off as more bio-mechanical which to me isn't what a demon engine is. Some fleshy bits are fine due to chaos warping machines ala oblits but overall they are too organic. The rules are pretty meh, especially when placed side by side with a soul grinder. Yes yes, I know, "just use demon allies" repeat ad nauseam.
I don't know how anyone can be calling out for Plasma Cannons. I am loathe to ever use them with my Obliterators because of Gets Hot (almost always) and small blasts with scatter are terrible anyway. I never see SM armies using them, despite getting them in the DV set. I know immediately a turn of Plasma cannon shooting is gonna be a waste. However, I do love Plasma-guns.
Perhaps use the Forgefeind rules and convert something more to your liking? A generic manifestation of the fevered dreams of the disturbed wouldnt look that great next to another identical model, but two unique ones would look great.
StarTrotter wrote:So gotta ask, what's everybodie's opinion of Daemon engines like the Deffie? There's complaints at the dinobots but what of them?
The Defiler is my favorite of the demon engines. It actually looks like a crazy machine that had a demon imprisoned in it. The heldrake, helbrute, and both the fiends lack this aesthetic. They all come off as more bio-mechanical which to me isn't what a demon engine is. Some fleshy bits are fine due to chaos warping machines ala oblits but overall they are too organic. The rules are pretty meh, especially when placed side by side with a soul grinder. Yes yes, I know, "just use demon allies" repeat ad nauseam.
I agree with all of this. I really like the look of the WOC Hell Cannon. All fleshy and alive looking despite being a piece of artillery. Not a robot shaped like a monster.
Bharring wrote: Perhaps use the Forgefeind rules and convert something more to your liking? A generic manifestation of the fevered dreams of the disturbed wouldnt look that great next to another identical model, but two unique ones would look great.
I would love a Decimator (Favorite FW model and strong contender for favorite demon engine for same reasons as defiler) with 2x butcher cannons to stand in for a forgefiend. But unfortunately to pay FW prices the model AND the rules have to be good. Both the forge fiend and the Decimator rules are kinda meh. Too similar in purpose to dreads, just a lot more expensive.
Here is a post of bitterness that I wanted to leave behind, but meh....venting.
What should Chaos do now? Not complain, has been the single most pointed at answer by non-Chaos players. Because, So.
Edit: Scratch that. Don't even talk about it because you don't have a right to be upset about your own army, rules or codex. Now get ready for Thunderfire Barrage.
TheRedWingArmada wrote: Here is a post of bitterness that I wanted to leave behind, but meh....venting.
What should Chaos do now? Not complain, has been the single most pointed at answer by non-Chaos players. Because, So.
Edit: Scratch that. Don't even talk about it because you don't have a right to be upset about your own army, rules or codex. Now get ready for Thunderfire Barrage.
No, what I did was stop playing chaos.
They're not "our" rules or codex, they're GW's and we don't like what GW did with the idea of a chaos marine army compared to what they used to be. We want to change that so we voice our opinions. If we don't voice our opinions nothing will ever change.
You think it's better to suck it up and play a game/faction we don't enjoy? How does that make sense? GW isn't the government. We don't have to suck it up and do whatever they tell us.
<---- Also enjoys bourbon, so clearly has good taste.
Might be enjoying too much bourbon.
I kid I kid, though I'm kinda glad my Slaaneshi psyker got a slight bone tossed to them with CPF, but still hearing that my army shouldn't have anything it has in fluff gives me much pause still.
TheRedWingArmada wrote: Here is a post of bitterness that I wanted to leave behind, but meh....venting.
What should Chaos do now? Not complain, has been the single most pointed at answer by non-Chaos players. Because, So.
Edit: Scratch that. Don't even talk about it because you don't have a right to be upset about your own army, rules or codex. Now get ready for Thunderfire Barrage.
Vote with your wallet and go play a non-GW game for a little while, then see if things change later on. That's what I did and I'm glad I left my comfort zone. I still paint all kinds of cool Chaos models, but I do it between working on Warmachine stuff, and I never bother to play.
TheRedWingArmada wrote: Here is a post of bitterness that I wanted to leave behind, but meh....venting.
What should Chaos do now? Not complain, has been the single most pointed at answer by non-Chaos players. Because, So.
Edit: Scratch that. Don't even talk about it because you don't have a right to be upset about your own army, rules or codex. Now get ready for Thunderfire Barrage.
No, what I did was stop playing chaos.
They're not "our" rules or codex, they're GW's and we don't like what GW did with the idea of a chaos marine army compared to what they used to be. We want to change that so we voice our opinions. If we don't voice our opinions nothing will ever change.
You think it's better to suck it up and play a game/faction we don't enjoy? How does that make sense? GW isn't the government. We don't have to suck it up and do whatever they tell us.
Sarcasm. <<; I guess I didn't make it clear that I was bitter about the flak being thrown at Chaos, yet again. You know, I joined this game around the time of 6th ed (actually, it was exactly when the 6th ed Chaos Dex came out. It was what made me want to play the tabletop for reals, instead of everything else WH40K). Anywho, same time I get into the tabletop for the first time is the first time I find DakkaDakka, and when I went to see what everyone had to say, it was exactly the same thing that I'm seeing now.
I was dumb enough to not understand completely at the time, however I felt what all the Chaos players at that time felt about their Dex and still seem to today. That it is a sub-par attempt to placate the Chaos players, by Space Marine players who want something to laugh at. That's what it looks like. That's what it feels like. That's what it plays like.
I tried to ignore it then and did by getting away and sticking to the gallery and getting ideas for conversions and such. Even if I never played a game in my life and only got to watch them, I would still be able to enjoy that much.
But now? Knowing that this is where it comes to? This is the fan base for the entire game, not just factions? That THIS is how legitimate grievances are looked at? With smiles, internet memes, anecdotal pictures that supposedly prove some kind of point and the ignoring and minimalizing of actual points and empirical evidence (as in, compare armories and tell me whose is bigger)? This is horrid!
slowthar wrote: Vote with your wallet and go play a non-GW game for a little while, then see if things change later on. That's what I did and I'm glad I left my comfort zone. I still paint all kinds of cool Chaos models, but I do it between working on Warmachine stuff, and I never bother to play.
Agreed, and while I do that, here is a commercial of what's going on in the meantime. I've got kids that love this stuff too. And not just one that I see on the weekends or anything, but I've got a sizable household, extremely limited cash flow and time to spend (I am disabled), and all that comes with. So jumping between hobbies is crazy expensive at the end of the day, and I barely have enough life as it is without having to worry about what the next edition of something is going to look like. I digress though, for a demographic like mine, this is an extremely disturbing trend.
To be fair, I've been generally disappointed by the Dakka community as of late. I think 7th has drawn the worst out of a lot of us, and it isn't usually this bad. Still, it does suck to be a legion player right now. Or Chaos in general.
Considering grabbing a team to run up a custom codex closer to the variety we should have.
liquidjoshi wrote: To be fair, I've been generally disappointed by the Dakka community as of late. I think 7th has drawn the worst out of a lot of us, and it isn't usually this bad. Still, it does suck to be a legion player right now. Or Chaos in general.
Considering grabbing a team to run up a custom codex closer to the variety we should have.
I'm not one to typically be adversarial but with what I'm being given, I don't think I have a choice. It's either someone who doesn't play my game telling me I'm doing it wrong or I should just be happy with what I got, or like-mindeds who are having the same idea.
Screw it, then, if that's the point we're at. Beardies v. Gamers? GW v. Unofficial? Tournament v. Everything else? Fine. Have your sport the way it is, and the spectators will go somewhere else.
On that note, anyone have a Chaos Gaming Club in Texas anywhere? Granted, I'm not going to be here for much longer, but hey! Chaos Gaming Clubs anywhere? Might as well start looking now.
And on the note of division, I already had to tell Riptide players to bugger off. Looks like I'm going to have to be that much more discerning about everything else now as well.
Agreed, and while I do that, here is a commercial of what's going on in the meantime. I've got kids that love this stuff too. And not just one that I see on the weekends or anything, but I've got a sizable household, extremely limited cash flow and time to spend (I am disabled), and all that comes with. So jumping between hobbies is crazy expensive at the end of the day, and I barely have enough life as it is without having to worry about what the next edition of something is going to look like. I digress though, for a demographic like mine, this is an extremely disturbing trend.
C'est la vie, I suppose. Such is Life.
If it's just you and your kids (and his friends/cousins), then stick to 6th edition and enjoy yourselves. Even play with points if you want to mess with balance and such. Make it your own.
liquidjoshi wrote: To be fair, I've been generally disappointed by the Dakka community as of late. I think 7th has drawn the worst out of a lot of us, and it isn't usually this bad. Still, it does suck to be a legion player right now. Or Chaos in general.
Considering grabbing a team to run up a custom codex closer to the variety we should have.
I'm not one to typically be adversarial but with what I'm being given, I don't think I have a choice. It's either someone who doesn't play my game telling me I'm doing it wrong or I should just be happy with what I got, or like-mindeds who are having the same idea.
Screw it, then, if that's the point we're at. Beardies v. Gamers? GW v. Unofficial? Tournament v. Everything else? Fine. Have your sport the way it is, and the spectators will go somewhere else.
On that note, anyone have a Chaos Gaming Club in Texas anywhere? Granted, I'm not going to be here for much longer, but hey! Chaos Gaming Clubs anywhere? Might as well start looking now.
And on the note of division, I already had to tell Riptide players to bugger off. Looks like I'm going to have to be that much more discerning about everything else now as well.
Oh I completely agree, don't get me wrong. SM players waltzing in giving us Chaos players the business, people assuming it's Helldrake complaints... yeah, this thread is pretty much a monument to shameless bigotry.
All we can do really is make do. And, well, hope GW stop fething us over.
Melissia wrote: If you do make a custom codex, be prepared for a lot of hate. People hate new things unless GW introduces them (and usually even then).
I dunno really, the CSM fandex in proposed rules got nice reception.
Melissia wrote: If you do make a custom codex, be prepared for a lot of hate. People hate new things unless GW introduces them (and usually even then).
I dunno really, the CSM fandex in proposed rules got nice reception.
To be fair, it's on proposed rules where people are far more accepting of such ideas and is largely influenced by people that like and want something similar from CSM. The problem more comes from strangers and even your friends when you reveal this new fandex.
I still can't really understand the logic behind the Price of the Mauler and Forgefiend. Seriously I loved the models ,but then actually looked at the rules and was like Welp.
Also, the biggest change i want is that for Chaos and Chaos Daemon Marks to Match up
Automatically Appended Next Post: It's really really dumb they don/t, Also Helbrutes should be Daemons.
Melissia wrote: If you do make a custom codex, be prepared for a lot of hate. People hate new things unless GW introduces them (and usually even then).
I dunno really, the CSM fandex in proposed rules got nice reception.
To be fair, it's on proposed rules where people are far more accepting of such ideas and is largely influenced by people that like and want something similar from CSM. The problem more comes from strangers and even your friends when you reveal this new fandex.
I guess I am just lucky with a community who agrees unchanged rules = stupid.
Entitled white guys claiming other people are bigoted against them is always funny
It would be funny if it weren't true. Anyone else notice that racism is applicable to everyone except white males now? How interesting a phenomena.
On that note, there are far more white males who aren't entitled or feel entitled that get swept up in that bracket just as easily as anyone else. For further stats and evidence to this standard, one need only look at the rate of incarceration betwen Males and Females, then between Ethnicities. What you find in the end is that males are discriminated against, something like 100 to 1. But then we can always lean on the misnomer that "the (white) man runs everything." Sorry, that isn't as true as it used to be anymore. It's "the wealthy man" that runs everything and believes it is entitled to everything. Racism has nothing to do with it. That is just ignorance excusing itself for not realizing that class-ism is what is truly bleeding our species.
Right up there with desensitizing people to things they would not tolerate otherwise, like the idea that bigotry, in any fashion, is funny. Whether it be for or against your better interests.
Sorry to get all philosophical here, but this is where we are getting too. People grown up around misnomers anecdotally thrown out like the 2000's are the 1900's in any way shape or form.
In conclusion, yeah, there is a lot of bigotry still going on, and yes it happens here in the Miniwargaming/40k world as well. It happens when one group of people gets together to decide it's going to be better than the next group of people, and as I said, that is how stupid it has gotten. That people group and be bigoted without any real difference to separate them from their own bigoted opinion. How else do you explain the discrepancy between Imperial players and Chaos players?
Chaos will be fine. The increased difficulty will be a welcomed challenge that forces everyone to stop spamming dragons and nurgle (hopefully). It was getting old.
This edition is the most open and option heavy yet. This is the time to act, not mope. Stop whining.
crimson_caesar wrote: Chaos will be fine. The increased difficulty will be a welcomed challenge that forces everyone to stop spamming dragons and nurgle (hopefully). It was getting old.
This edition is the most open and option heavy yet. This is the time to act, not mope. Stop whining.
of course good sir, your post has opened my eyes, i will wipe my tears, learn some skills like your magnificent self and start having fun immediately
crimson_caesar wrote: Chaos will be fine. The increased difficulty will be a welcomed challenge that forces everyone to stop spamming dragons and nurgle (hopefully). It was getting old.
This edition is the most open and option heavy yet. This is the time to act, not mope. Stop whining.
As people have mentioned, the reason people spammed dragons and nurgle is because everything else is far inferior. I doubt the lists are going to change much (for pure CSM anyways,) but they'll be a bit less effective/harder to use.
Blacksails wrote: This is a thread about plastic miniatures; specifically of the spikey power armoured variety.
Amazingly, not a thread about bigotry, racism, or anything remotely similar.
I pointed out the comical absurdity that a poster equating the woes of CSM players to being bigots.
It should have ended there.
Minimizing a position is the first step to discrediting without analysis. It's also a ploy by the bigoted. And I revert to "desensitizing." Would anyone even recognize a bigot if they saw one? Because saying stuff like "Stop crying and start dying," is pretty bigotted seeing as how no thought is being given to the person being told to "Stop crying and start dying."
It should have ended there, if only someone with a stand on the issue didn't have their own position as well. You think it's comical absurdity that a CSM player feels ousted by a game or group of gamers? I say it's profoundly offensive for anyone to cast of another persons concerns so readily without speculation. One position has you laughing until you are being laughed at and the other turns its back on the cruel idea on the outset.
Amazingly, the name of this thread is "CSM - what are we supposed to do now?" as if someone were asking for help about how to continue being CSM in this climate and atmsophere, as if the individual in question (or individuals who share this sentiment) are feeling somewhat downtrodden and discriminated against. And can you blame us with shennanigans like "Play something else!" or "You should stop crying!" coming from people who DON'T share our sentiments?
Taking a big logic leap here, you know, I'm sure the Jews wish they would've said something about bigotry during WW2. But then I'm sure some nice SS officer came up and said "Oh stop crying, it's not THAT bad. See look! I've got a turnip!"
And while you may think this is just a game, it stops being a game when people take their gaming behavior and apply it to the real world. But then I guess I'm just being to critical. Not like this has real world implications or anything, as I have just illustrated.
Back to "It's just a game and plastic models." How bout ya'll stop telling us we're crying over a game now since it's just a game and no one is actually crying? Unless you've got some kind of extra-sensory perception that lets you see peoples emotions through the internet.
Blacksails wrote: This is a thread about plastic miniatures; specifically of the spikey power armoured variety.
Amazingly, not a thread about bigotry, racism, or anything remotely similar.
I pointed out the comical absurdity that a poster equating the woes of CSM players to being bigots.
It should have ended there.
Minimizing a position is the first step to discrediting without analysis. It's also a ploy by the bigoted. And I revert to "desensitizing." Would anyone even recognize a bigot if they saw one? Because saying stuff like "Stop crying and start dying," is pretty bigotted seeing as how no thought is being given to the person being told to "Stop crying and start dying."
It should have ended there, if only someone with a stand on the issue didn't have their own position as well. You think it's comical absurdity that a CSM player feels ousted by a game or group of gamers? I say it's profoundly offensive for anyone to cast of another persons concerns so readily without speculation. One position has you laughing until you are being laughed at and the other turns its back on the cruel idea on the outset.
Amazingly, the name of this thread is "CSM - what are we supposed to do now?" as if someone were asking for help about how to continue being CSM in this climate and atmsophere, as if the individual in question (or individuals who share this sentiment) are feeling somewhat downtrodden and discriminated against. And can you blame us with shennanigans like "Play something else!" or "You should stop crying!" coming from people who DON'T share our sentiments?
Taking a big logic leap here, you know, I'm sure the Jews wish they would've said something about bigotry during WW2. But then I'm sure some nice SS officer came up and said "Oh stop crying, it's not THAT bad. See look! I've got a turnip!"
And while you may think this is just a game, it stops being a game when people take their gaming behavior and apply it to the real world. But then I guess I'm just being to critical. Not like this has real world implications or anything, as I have just illustrated.
Back to "It's just a game and plastic models." How bout ya'll stop telling us we're crying over a game now since it's just a game and no one is actually crying? Unless you've got some kind of extra-sensory perception that lets you see peoples emotions through the internet.
Whoa whoa whoa BAAAAAAD comparison. Look, it really hasn't been anywhere close to that bad. Heck, I remember a time where a CSM discussion of the codex came up and somebody said your codex is okay because you have the heldrake you cheesemeisters so shut up. Nobody has even touched that, at worst some people have said they enjoy their codex. Really, at this point there isn't much to say. The codex sucks, 40k the game has many flaws from imbalances both internal and external with certain armies not existing anymore, some basically updated on a footnote (and I will blindly hold hope that the 7 or so missing SoB models = a new SoB update), and certain armies that become inferior and fail to represent what they should be from Orks sucking at CC to CSM being CSM to Nids to etc. At worst we can quit the game for a time, at best we can houserule things and try to have fun that way.
The fandex has its flaws and isn't nearly done but it has potential.
crimson_caesar wrote: Chaos will be fine. The increased difficulty will be a welcomed challenge that forces everyone to stop spamming dragons and nurgle (hopefully). It was getting old.
This edition is the most open and option heavy yet. This is the time to act, not mope. Stop whining.
As people have mentioned, the reason people spammed dragons and nurgle is because everything else is far inferior. I doubt the lists are going to change much (for pure CSM anyways,) but they'll be a bit less effective/harder to use.
My hopes are high. There are a lot of new rules/additions we can take advantage of.
-Multiple Detachments|| we have strong HQs -Increased Vehicle Durability
-the psychic phase|| many options like spell familiars
-Everything scores|| we can either be campy with troops choices or aggressive with few of them
-Challenges changed|| makes us more deadly in CC -Maelstrom Missions||Discourages camping in general (come at us Tau and IG)
I think there are many different good pieces to the new BRB that we just haven't pieced together. Coming up with the answers will take time, no need to give up.
Oh I agree CSM improved a bit with some of the new rules, but so did everyone else. The spell familiars are a big plus, and unique. Vehicle boosts help everyone else just as much though (imo.)
Actually the Maelstrom Missions arguably hurt us. We aren't a mobile army for the most part. It's a massive buff to mobile armies particularly Eldar and even SM.
Challenges overall got a little buff. Then again if the enemy wins in challenges well we get hurt more. That and the DP got a huge nerf really.
Everything scores but so does everything the enemy does and objective secured means no more contestation.
The psychic phase is certainly, overall, a win for us unless spell familiars get nerfed.
I really dunno about the vehicle durability. For starters, all vehicles got buffed. Secondly, it still doesn't solve the main problem. Glanced to death.
Multiple Detatchements, meh, our only real nasty HQs are Typhus (more for zombies), Nurgle bikers, Juggerlords, and maybe a summoning DP with the flamer of doom (since black mace got nerfed)
crimson_caesar wrote: But many of ours have 5++s and IWND. For 125 Points, a Maulerfiend seems like a steal.
It certainly is better than in 6th. But against armies that rely on glancing you to death (such as serpent spam) it is still as dead as before. And those serpents are also now harder to kill.
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