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Post by: cincydooley
Personally, I think they need to restart the project with none of the ambiguity they started with.
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Post by: Alpharius
I don't know...
I still think this will fund and end up around 120K or so.
If they cancel, reorganize and restart, can it get as high?
As for right now, I think Scale Games needs to re-do the front page.
Get that resin sample miniature pic front and center.
Clearly state what the material is (resin) and where they'll be doing it (In House).
Get the pledge levels to show the actual number of miniatures that are in them - and not just in tiny text, but pictures/graphics.
Get an 'official' presence going on all the major sites.
Get BoW on the case.
They've seemed MORE than open and OK to constructive criticism so far - and I find that a nice, refreshing attitude to have.
I still feel that this one can recover and do quite well - with just a little bit of work now!
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Post by: PsychoticStorm
Yes, they can shape it back, could have gone better if it started in the shape it is now, not sure if it needed all the flack it got to reach this state of clarity.
Props to them for been open to criticism and working on it.
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Post by: Delephont
I was in for a Commander pledge, but the material debate got me worried and I backed out. I'm really not sure there's anything they could say / do to pull me back in. Quite simply the trust in their competence is gone!
I wish them and their backers all the success, but I can't gamble £370 of my hard earned on this......
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Post by: Some_Call_Me_Tim?
Aaaand now it's down another 1,000 pounds. Geeze. This is like a trainwreck in slow motion.
~Tim?
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Post by: Fraggle
They emailed me to ask why I backed out. I listed my concerns and gave a few ideas that may help.
Got a nice reply saying thanks and they had considered options an welcomed my honest feedback. Can't fault them in that.
TBh that now has me thinking about re pledging. If only the scale was more compatible with all my scenery.
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Post by: Piston Honda
This reminds me a lot of that scene from saving private ryan where the medic shouts "We've stoped the bleeding, we've stopped bleeding!"
and a bullet just pops the poor guy in the head.
At any rate, I think we can all blame Alph for this, right guys? 
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Post by: jamesk1973
I think a reboot of the campaign with upgraded presentation would be welcome.
Also, a re-scale of the miniatures so that they can get people to buy in who don't care about the game and want to use their minis in other games.
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Post by: Pilgrim_uk
I doubt they will restart it as that option was considered during duel fighters which had more numerous reasons to restart but they never went through with it.
Also Its highly unlikely they will rescale the miniatures in the game. One of the many reasons they are 40mm they alluded to was to bring in painter/collectors.
They've seemed MORE than open and OK to constructive criticism so far - and I find that a nice, refreshing attitude to have.
This I what I found during the duel fighters campaign far from the accusations of liars cheats and frauds most people seem to be slinging at them.
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Post by: shasolenzabi
The factions give a Planetfall meets Mass Effect feel.
As for scale, Fantasy Flight made their version of Warzone: The Mutant Chronicles with 57mm figs, it did not last very long, boxes collected dust at every game store I visited.
GW and their Inquisitor scale also in 60mm scale, most minis were used locally as "trophy" bits for tournament "bronze" "silver" and "gold" depending on overall winner, best general and best sportsman.
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Post by: Artemis Black
 Alpharius wrote:In the past 4 days, they've lost 40 backers and about £6000, but...they're #1 on the Kicktraq Top 10?
In the past 4 days, Dust: Operation Babylon has gained 60 backers and about £18000 and they're...#6?
I'm at a loss as to why this one's bleeding backers and funds still.
The resin sample looked great, PVC is confirmed out, in house casting if confirmed in...
Everything looks good...though I'll admit that I'm not a fan of any of the vehicles so far.
Huh.
The Kicktraq hot list is only based on pledgers who have actually joined kicktraq etc. It's not a representation of kickstarter, just of kicktraq. They do it to encourage kickstarter campaigns to get their pledgers to join kicktraq.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Other than all of the issues we've already mentioned, it could really be as simple as the more people find out that it's a 40mm resin game and not a 35mm plastic one the more people aren't interested.
If someone had told me at the start that they were launching a 40mm game in resin I would have immediately said that they had no hope. Their artwork and sculpting/painting skills might have seen me waver a bit but that would have been my initial reaction, it's just too weird and it's been tried repeatedly and it's always failed.
I mean they 'still' haven't change the damn scale question on their FAQ, it's still a bunch of crap. They did however change the material part of their FAQ, there must be a resin why they left the scale one as misleading.
If that is the case then stopping and relauching could be the worst thing for them, probably the most honest, but buiness-wise the worst.
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Post by: shasolenzabi
Sent them a message as to the failure of Inquisitor and FF's version of Warzone for going bigger than 30mm scale
The are re-thinking their scaling
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Post by: zreef
If they are re thinking the scale then I am guessing this one will need another relaunch :/
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Post by: Zond
If Starship Troopers quotes can't save a kickstarter, nothing can.
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Post by: Alpharius
They're rethinking the scale?
Is that 'official'?
I hadn't seen that...
This one started out with a lot of questions, but now they they've been answered, I'd really like for this one to succeed, fund and ship!
The last four days have been brutal though...
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Post by: zreef
it keeps dropping and dropping. It will still lose more as people reshuffle pledges as the 1st round ones open up. :(
Automatically Appended Next Post:
based on a quick back of the napkin calculation it can lose another ~150 on pledge shuffling ... which might put it below 86k
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Post by: OnePageAnon
The whole cancelling and re-starting the kickstarter thing is a very difficult decision, and i hope that whatever they do, that they dont rush it.
On the one hand, cancelling the kickstarter, taking some time off to polish up everything and get someone with at least a little bit of PR knowledge and that speaks english well could do wonders. Then when they re-start everything would be upfront and clear, and there would be someone speaking good english that can interface with the community.
On the other hand, as it seems to be right now, continuing the kickstarter will get them funded, but not by a huge degree. This is of course sad because of the talent that they have from an art and models perspective (dont get me started on the rules).
Finally, cancelling the kickstarter and re-starting could easily end up in people getting pissed, losing interest or losing faith, and the new kickstarter does not get picked up.
All of this could have easily been avoided with a little more preparation before launching the kickstarter of course, so let this be a lesson to us all.
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Post by: cincydooley
 OnePageAnon wrote:
All of this could have easily been avoided with a little more preparation before launching the kickstarter of course, so let this be a lesson to us all.
Lesson?
Give me a break.
You've have to be willfully ignorant to not have learned these lessons from failed KS projects of others.
At this point, anyone ill-prepared for a KS project can only blame themselves.
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Post by: Piston Honda
Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Cincy's posts
"Yikes. Looks like this thing may dip below 86K tonight.
Too many Spaniards lose money in the 5-1 drubbing the Dutch handed out yesterday?"
You sir, deserve a trophy for that one.
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Post by: cincydooley
Truth be told, though, I'm a little disappointed. Now that they've confirmed they're using resin, I'm actually pretty excited about getting some of the models. They look nice.
Honestly, I think the "rules preview" they just released hurt them more than it helped them. The reason people so often want minis that scale with their other games is because it's much easier to make pretty models than good rules.
For example, the rules for Last Saga don't look terrible, but I don't care, because I'm going to be able to use those models with Infinity.
If you're going to do something wonky with scale, your rules really need to be a home run. These, at this point, don't appear to be.
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Post by: Piston Honda
OnePageAnon wrote:The whole cancelling and re-starting the kickstarter thing is a very difficult decision, and i hope that whatever they do, that they dont rush it.
On the one hand, cancelling the kickstarter, taking some time off to polish up everything and get someone with at least a little bit of PR knowledge and that speaks english well could do wonders. Then when they re-start everything would be upfront and clear, and there would be someone speaking good english that can interface with the community.
On the other hand, as it seems to be right now, continuing the kickstarter will get them funded, but not by a huge degree. This is of course sad because of the talent that they have from an art and models perspective (dont get me started on the rules).
Finally, cancelling the kickstarter and re-starting could easily end up in people getting pissed, losing interest or losing faith, and the new kickstarter does not get picked up.
All of this could have easily been avoided with a little more preparation before launching the kickstarter of course, so let this be a lesson to us all.
there have been dozens and dozens of kickstarters to know what to emulate and know what to avoid.
People may not like CMON or what the have delivered or lack of communication in the earliest KS.
But they have pretty much masted (and possibly set the template?) to how you orchestrate and layout a kickstarter.
Proper video summarizing what it's about.
clean details of what you for what price.
clearly labeled stretch goals.
what the material is made of.
Kickstarter savings/freebies/rewards (what is a freebie what is a pay for add-on).
Constant communication during the kickstarter.
Prototypes with a number of comparison shots.
well organized stretch goals well ahead of time (no blank images).
demo video within the 1st week to 10 days. Preferably day 1.
One thing CMON has not been all that good at, IMO is always, always, always have a pdf of the rules available day 1.
Scale achieved some of this. Others they failed miserably. Other times you couldn't make out WTF they were saying or what direction they were headed.
Never, at any moment keep your investors guessing or wondering. Remove all doubt and they will follow with cash in hand.
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Post by: Alpharius
 cincydooley wrote:
Truth be told, though, I'm a little disappointed. Now that they've confirmed they're using resin, I'm actually pretty excited about getting some of the models. They look nice.
Same here cincy - this is disappointing.
This one's doing a full on THON now... 
Is there some other big KS that's taking this one's lunch money?
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Post by: basement.dweller
I imagine they will cancel if this doesn't reach enough funding to produce at least the troops in HIPS.
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Post by: Alpharius
No way!
You think they'll cancel if it funds, but doesn't reach 130KGBP?
IF this one gets to 90K GBP, it is good to go.
And really, I'm WAY more comfortable with Scale Games making these miniatures in resin than I am HIPs at this point!
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Post by: cincydooley
Alpharius wrote:
Is there some other big KS that's taking this one's lunch money?
Certainly isn't Bunnies v Zombies.
That thing still isn't funded yet. I'm a little shocked by it.
Can't find anything else, unless everyone's just prepping for Zombicide S3
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Post by: shasolenzabi
About that re-think of scales
I am not 100% they will, but I did give them something to think about
https://www.kickstarter.com/messages/6841104?ref=email
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Post by: cincydooley
Alpharius wrote:
And really, I'm WAY more comfortable with Scale Games making these miniatures in resin than I am HIPs at this point!
Agreed.
I think they'll be incredibly late, because I'm not sure they've ever done anything in this volume, but I have confidence that they can at least produce the models well.
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Post by: edlowe
So guys if they re started with everything clear from the start what would put you off from pledging (being constructive and all!)
By that I mean they've got great looking figures a shed load of good painters behind them plus their willing to listen to feedback on their beta rules.
I have always liked their figues and backgroud from the start, sure it needed a proper English translation but thats what you accept from new eu companies.
So basicly what would you like to see?
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Post by: basement.dweller
I love resin man - I just don't think any business is in the business of producing favours and that's what I believe making 40+mm high quality polyurethane resin figures for a pittance equates to. I don't see it happening. I guess I was too subtle a few posts back. I only ever think this was a gamble to get people pledging to reach the higher goal and never a real option. Obviously it's my opinion, but I'll state it's my opinion nontheless and it's why I dropped my pledge. If I thought it was real I'd be buying up starters to get a shedload of resin figures at less than wholesale (£1,33 each) and spamming them on ebay.
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Post by: cincydooley
 edlowe wrote:So guys if they re started with everything clear from the start what would put you off from pledging (being constructive and all!)
By that I mean they've got great looking figures a shed load of good painters behind them plus their willing to listen to feedback on their beta rules.
I have always liked their figues and backgroud from the start, sure it needed a proper English translation but thats what you accept from new eu companies.
So basicly what would you like to see?
I haven't pulled mine yet.
The background is pretty non-existent, generic sci fi at this point.
The rules are junk, unless there's some serious translation issues hiding a great game that I'm just not seeing.
The minis are where it's at, pretty simply. Because without those other two things being compelling, that's really all they have. And unfortunately, like I said before, they're at a scale that not everyone is going to be able to find them useful.
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Post by: basement.dweller
cincy - I wrote them a lengthy email stating what you just said amongst other things as reasons people might not be pledging. If your rules aren't adequate and your figures are not compatible in scale ith other ranges - you can't sell to the biggest demographic in our hobby - the gamers.
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Post by: edlowe
So if they tried to refund at 28mm everything would be cool?
to be honest I like the larger scale its a bit different, unless alot of people want to use them as 40k proxys
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Post by: Piston Honda
edlowe wrote:So if they tried to refund at 28mm everything would be cool?
to be honest I like the larger scale its a bit different, unless alot of people want to use them as 40k proxys
I think you would get more people who would buy them just because they would mix a lot better with existing lines and look better with current terrain.
Obviously there is a level of interest at the 35mm or 40mm (whatever it's suppose to be). But people who are looking for minis in the 28mm size or at least have them as a fall back (well the rules suck, but at least I got cool minis I can use) are not interested, making the only available market would be artist and gamers who want a very solid game.
They have great minis, but the rules are not that good.
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Post by: Duskland
I actually like the strange scale. I'm planning on using the figures for some generic 28mm games anyway, so them being a little big doesn't bother me at all.
One of my pet peeves is the predominance of equal size troops in sci-fi. Not every killer robot/alien should be exactly 6' tall. It's like a bad Star Trek episode. I want to see some varience.
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Post by: cincydooley
 Duskland wrote:I actually like the strange scale. I'm planning on using the figures for some generic 28mm games anyway, so them being a little big doesn't bother me at all.
I'd say you're in the minority.
While I too like some diversity in height, these dudes aren't even remotely in scale with anything else 28mm.
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Post by: Artemis Black
edlowe wrote:So if they tried to refund at 28mm everything would be cool?
to be honest I like the larger scale its a bit different, unless alot of people want to use them as 40k proxys
The thing is, they probably can't. I don't know why people think just because it's digital you can produce them at any size ya like, you really can't. The smaller they get the more shallow detail is lost. That's why larger scale figures look better, that's part of the reaosn 'these' figures look so good, they're larger. It also makes them considerably easier to paint which again makes them look better.
So if they do decide to relaunch at a compatible scale with games like Infinity they'll have to partially resculpt all the figures 'and' I'm going to want to see rulers in every damn shot because so far they simply can't be trusted to tell the damn truth about such things.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Duskland wrote:I actually like the strange scale. I'm planning on using the figures for some generic 28mm games anyway, so them being a little big doesn't bother me at all.
One of my pet peeves is the predominance of equal size troops in sci-fi. Not every killer robot/alien should be exactly 6' tall. It's like a bad Star Trek episode. I want to see some varience.
GW space marines come up to the humans chests. They'd be closer to 8ft tall but in normal human proportion. It'd look 'really' odd.
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Post by: Piston Honda
 Artemis Black wrote: edlowe wrote:So if they tried to refund at 28mm everything would be cool?
to be honest I like the larger scale its a bit different, unless alot of people want to use them as 40k proxys
The thing is, they probably can't. I don't know why people think just because it's digital you can produce them at any size ya like, you really can't. The smaller they get the more shallow detail is lost. That's why larger scale figures look better, that's part of the reaosn 'these' figures look so good, they're larger. It also makes them considerably easier to paint which again makes them look better.
Wow, didn't know, thought if they were digital you can resize them any way you want no problem.
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Post by: Yonan
As Alpharius said earlier, the potential to use these as "truescale" marines is tempting, though the aesthetics are much further out than say Mantic Peackeepers or DFG Valkir. Far enough out that I don't really think it's workable whilst staying fluffy - though overall I think the SM armour style is cheesy, it *is* iconic.
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Post by: Artemis Black
 Piston Honda wrote: Artemis Black wrote: edlowe wrote:So if they tried to refund at 28mm everything would be cool?
to be honest I like the larger scale its a bit different, unless alot of people want to use them as 40k proxys
The thing is, they probably can't. I don't know why people think just because it's digital you can produce them at any size ya like, you really can't. The smaller they get the more shallow detail is lost. That's why larger scale figures look better, that's part of the reason 'these' figures look so good, they're larger. It also makes them considerably easier to paint which again makes them look better.
Wow, didn't know, thought if they were digital you can resize them any way you want no problem.
You can certainly resize them but the smaller they get the worse they'll look if they were sculpted for a larger scale. Detail sculpted for larger scale figures isn't as 'deep' so the smaller you try to produce them the shallow the details gets and it starts to disappear or simply look worse. Tiny surface detail, like you find on faces or guns for example.
If you want to make 32mm figures you really need to know that when you're sculpting them. Which was my issue with using 75mm+ ones in the advertising, even printed out at 40mm they won't look the same, knock another 25% off the size and they're going to look worse again. They'd need to be resculpted to avoid that.
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Post by: Vertrucio
Unless it was sculpted for 40mm from the start, then printed larger. From actual experience, you will be surprised at how much detail stays in prints of all sizes.
inquisitor or warzone are not good examples of big scale models inherently doing poorly. That's because, let's face it, warzone is not as popular as people think. If it was, it wouldn't have failed 3 times as a game already. Besides a flashy gasp as a kick starter, we're really not seeing it do much.
And inquisitor was a terrible idea from the beginning since it was fracturing a player base, and it was GW's usual abandonment policies on top of that.
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Post by: Delephont
I've been out of WH40K since 5th Ed and all the price hikes of that time......but back then proxying for GW minis was a big no no everywhere except your private games at home or in niche clubs......so, has something changed? I mean I keep hearing about wanting these minis as proxies but is that really a viable basis for a project? Personally I planned on using these miniatures for painting and roleplay and therefore was never bothered by rules.
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Post by: insaniak
 Delephont wrote:I've been out of WH40K since 5th Ed and all the price hikes of that time......but back then proxying for GW minis was a big no no everywhere except your private games at home or in niche clubs......so, has something changed? I mean I keep hearing about wanting these minis as proxies but is that really a viable basis for a project? Personally I planned on using these miniatures for painting and roleplay and therefore was never bothered by rules.
Using 3rd party miniatures was generally only a problem in GW-sponsored tournaments or at GW stores. Occasionally at independant stores (more likely if they didn't actually sell the range that you were using) but less often.
It's still generally a no go at GW stores, but since GW stopped supporting the tournament scene, the rules on what miniatures can be used tended to relax.
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Post by: frozenwastes
Delephont wrote:I've been out of WH40K since 5th Ed and all the price hikes of that time......but back then proxying for GW minis was a big no no everywhere except your private games at home or in niche clubs......so, has something changed?
Definitely. In a lot of ways GW has abandoned actually supporting gaming in many areas and lots of gaming has moved from stores to clubs and in people's homes. An entire industry of alternative models and conversion parts have popped up. GW even attempted to sue one of them, but after years in court (and their head lawyer no longer working for GW) the company in question is still in operation with regular releases. The age of "official" died alongside GW's support for tournaments and the like. If you game in an independent store, it would probably still be a jerk move to get your alternative miniatures online and then bring them in to play there. Fortunately a lot of appropriate alternative miniatures are available through hobby distribution, so you can get things like DreamForge's storm troopers at the same place you might play 40k. I see you are in the UK though, so this might not be an issue for you as independent gaming stores are less central to the hobby on your side of the Atlantic. Without GW actively fostering this "official only" mindset with approved events and all that, the natural thing happened. The rule of cool wins out. If it looks good and no one is confused, use it.
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Post by: Alpharius
I was OK with the larger scale then, and I'm OK with it now.
The material 'uncertainty' was the biggest issue for me at the start.
Once that was cleared up, I was more than happy to stay in, and I though more people would be as well.
I guess a lot of people really thought HIPs was a possibility here.
And now that it isn't, they're out?
Interesting to hear that Mantic was sniffing around, trying to figure out who Scale Games was going to use for HIPs!
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Post by: zreef
Alpharius wrote:I was OK with the larger scale then, and I'm OK with it now.
The material 'uncertainty' was the biggest issue for me at the start.
Once that was cleared up, I was more than happy to stay in, and I though more people would be as well.
I guess a lot of people really thought HIPs was a possibility here.
And now that it isn't, they're out?
Interesting to hear that Mantic was sniffing around, trying to figure out who Scale Games was going to use for HIPs!
I don't think its the material as much as the wishy washy answers. One day its this, the other its that, now it is this at 130k it turns into that. The lack of clarity in scale, when I first looked I assumed they were 28mm for some reason (probably should not do that) -- then they were 35mm now they are 40mm depending on if you read the comments or not --- rumor has it they might scale down to 28mm. The rules are still not great and with all the other things that have come up, I do not think they will be able to revise them prior to the end. So the only thing that is 100% is that it is not certain what you will get at the end.
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
I'm not sure that it's even an issue of material or scale,
I think a lot of it is down to 'negative vibes' from the KS comments and on forums
while it's nice to imagine the majority of backers think deeply about what they back on KS and what they want it for
I think a lot of them (especially on bigger campaigns like this one is based on the funding goal) spot the campaign either on KS or via forums then just glance at things, go ooh shiney, I kind of want this and just back it. If there is a lot of negative comment they tend to pull out out/don't back even if the issue is sorted
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Post by: Zond
I can't see this funding, although I'm happy to up my pledge to Commander a bit closer to the end. Every communication from Scale Games is so hesitant, wishy washy and unsure. And very sporadic. I think they need a stronger presence.
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Post by: frozenwastes
It just doesn't come across as a project where the people involved know what needs to be done and have a plan to accomplish it.
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Post by: Alpharius
No matter what happens during this campaign, I don't think they'll be shrinking things down to 28mm.
And I hope they don't!
I like the larger scale!
I hope this one can recover - and it can, IF Scale Games ups their game in terms of communication and KS clarity! 
EDIT:
And now under £85K - ouch!
I can't believe that this many people wanted/thought it would be HIPs - what could be causing this amount of bleed off?!?
And, more importantly, what, if anything, can be done to get this campaign moving in the right direction again?
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Post by: Yonan
Communication problems reminds me of another company that ran a kickstarter. These guys don't seem as touchy at least!
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Post by: Delephont
Wow, below £85K.......dayumm this thing is dead. In some ways I think this is a good thing. SG was/is clearly out of their depth on this, and their (seeming) incompetence in terms of marketing, knowing their target market, and mastering communication basics (like language) has lead to them paying a huge price! Add to that, this potential failure will mark any future SG projects that they seek crowd funding for!
I think Scale should stick to what they know best (75mm figures) and leave the games and tabletop to those that know it better. I would see no shame for Scale to supply their miniature design skills to a.n.other games producer and take part in a solid collaboration.
This is a very sad time for SG!
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Post by: Zond
Dead kickstarter walking on the green mile!
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Post by: Pilgrim_uk
Personally I don't think its good business with the lowballing practice of kickstarter campaigns. I think setting it intentionally high as a business is the way to go as It takes a lot of pressure off the creators and the backers. Any stretch goals after that then don't impact on the main business of the game getting produced. What SG has done in setting up the game looks good to me how they handled it is another matter. (Just an opinion)
How could this be turned around with a new press release to each and every forum with the firm commitments on what was very vague before. Don't make promises of free figures or any other sycophantic nonsense. If people are not interested in this scale of game fair enough absolutely nothing you can do about that.
But I think people are getting caught up in the minutiae of the scale. If you play terminators in 40k and they are what about 40mm? surely you are still playing with 40mm figures in a 28mm scale game?
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Post by: Artemis Black
 Pilgrim_uk wrote:Personally I don't think its good business with the lowballing practice of kickstarter campaigns. I think setting it intentionally high as a business is the way to go as It takes a lot of pressure off the creators and the backers. Any stretch goals after that then don't impact on the main business of the game getting produced. What SG has done in setting up the game looks good to me how they handled it is another matter. (Just an opinion)
How could this be turned around with a new press release to each and every forum with the firm commitments on what was very vague before. Don't make promises of free figures or any other sycophantic nonsense. If people are not interested in this scale of game fair enough absolutely nothing you can do about that.
But I think people are getting caught up in the minutiae of the scale. If you play terminators in 40k and they are what about 40mm? surely you are still playing with 40mm figures in a 28mm scale game?
Terminators are around 37mm and they rpresent superhumans in powered armour. This games normal guys in normal armour are 10% taller again, their powered armour guys are even bigger and the aliens even bigger again.
And there are 2 different scale arguments going on I think. One is whether or not it matters if they are big. I don't think that's as much an argument as it is personal prefrence. If you want to play with 40 odd mm figures then go ahead.
The real scale argument is that people, even now, don't seem to know what they are getting. Even today in the comments someone called it a 32mm game, multiple others called it a 35mm game and even more mentioned it being the same as Dust and WWX. None of those are true, none. And Scale Games didn't correct a single one of them. That's been going on since the start. It's primarily based on a) people not bothering to much with new information and the game was intiially jst presented as a straight "35mm scale" game and b) Even if they do care, the FAQ states their size incorectly still as "35mm to the eyes" (Plus there's the issue of photoshopping lager than 25mm bases onto the minis to make them appear smaller).
Until they put up photos with a ruler and change the FAQ accordingly they ae basically still lying directly to their backers. That kinda stuf just doesn't go over well when someone finds out.
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Post by: Guildsman
Artemis Black wrote:
Terminators are around 37mm and they rpresent superhumans in powered armour. This games normal guys in normal armour are 10% taller again, their powered armour guys are even bigger and the aliens even bigger again.
And there are 2 different scale arguments going on I think. One is whether or not it matters if they are big. I don't think that's as much an argument as it is personal prefrence. If you want to play with 40 odd mm figures then go ahead.
The real scale argument is that people, even now, don't seem to know what they are getting. Even today in the comments someone called it a 32mm game, multiple others called it a 35mm game and even more mentioned it being the same as Dust and WWX. None of those are true, none. And Scale Games didn't correct a single one of them. That's been going on since the start. It's primarily based on a) people not bothering to much with new information and the game was intiially jst presented as a straight "35mm scale" game and b) Even if they do care, the FAQ states their size incorectly still as "35mm to the eyes" (Plus there's the issue of photoshopping lager than 25mm bases onto the minis to make them appear smaller).
Until they put up photos with a ruler and change the FAQ accordingly they ae basically still lying directly to their backers. That kinda stuf just doesn't go over well when someone finds out.
Exactly. I've watched this campaign very closely, from the very beginning, and just can't bring myself to pledge. It's not because of the art design, or the sculpt quality, which are both excellent. It's for two reasons. First is the rules (not buying figures in a wonky scale if the rules are junk). The second, and most important reason, is that I have no idea what I'd end up getting.
At this point, I have precisely zero faith that Scale Games can produce a product matching any of the specs they've decided on so far. At first, the minis were going to be made in "plastic." Then it was "whatever we think is best." Then it was definitely polystyrene. Now it's definitely resin. See the problem? Between the material issues, and the scale issues, and the delays on their other kickstarter, I have no idea what I'd be getting or when. Some posters have said they're lying, and others have said it's just missteps, but it doesn't matter. Both of those choices are equally bad for the consumer.
Don't get me wrong. I'd love for this campaign to succeed and launch a new sci-fi game into the hobby. Lord knows I almost jumped in when they added the full faction pledges, despite my reservations. But as it stands, Fallen Frontiers has more red flags than a semaphore convention, and I think the backers are beginning to realize it.
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Post by: paulson games
The misrepresentation of size was one of the reasons I cancelled my pledge. I don't mind playing a game in a larger scale, but they have been very misleading about what size it actually is and that creates a lack of trust for me. People are asking a lot of perfectly normal questions without being "haterz" but those questions are not being answered and Scale seems to be intentionally withholding information for fear of losing more backers when backers realize they've been duped on the size.
The moment they put the models up next to a ruler or show it on their main page next to a marine is when their bubble is going to pop and Scale knows this which is why we haven't seen it happen. It doesn't take a week to dig out a ruler or tape measure for some photos. There's the one reference picture buried in the updates, but people aren't digging through 30+ updates to find it, they only go by the shiny pics on the main page.
Even when they are signed up as a backer and getting update emailed to them people tend not to read them half the time or have the updates turned off so they lose access to a lot of important info. When running my own kickstarter I constantly got questions that I had either answered in updates or had added to the main page. I constantly was referring people back to the main page and the typical response was oh, I hadn't checked for anything new since I backed several days ago, I'll go check it again. People seem to favor backing a project then leaving it hands off only to double check at the very end (if at all).
SG needs to be a forward as possible if they want it to succeed, not everyone backs a KS project on blind faith, some of us want to make an informed choice before we back projects.
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Post by: basement.dweller
Can anyone with Scale75 colors measure the size of a bottle? I've been googling for the info, but no luck.
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Post by: Delephont
There was a photo on their Facebook page with their models alongside some other company products, including a SM and a Termite......just saying....
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Post by: Pilgrim_uk
Well from the beginning I have gotten the drift that its a 1/48 scale game athough the linked picture show its bigger.
If you look at this image if terminators are 41/42mm with base (38mm without base) then that makes the guy without helmet about 45mm. The armoured dude even bigger. ( give or take a mil or so)
The figures are bigger than I first expected.
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Post by: paulson games
Delephont wrote:There was a photo on their Facebook page with their models alongside some other company products, including a SM and a Termite......just saying....
scale games wrote:
▻ Which scale do you use for Fallen Frontiers figures?
At Scale games we have chosen to scale O (O gauge), where 7 mm correspond to 1 foot.
In this way a model of 1.80 m (6.8 ft) in reality, will measure 40 mm in total.
When we say that a human is 35 mm in FF we refer up to the eyes, not total, since is commonly used as a standar among brands selling kits of 54 or 75 mm.
Yet they are still claiming the minis are 35mm on their main page FAQ, the terminator is 37mm to the top yet it's not eye level with the unarmored troop (who's eye level seem to be at least 39-40mm tall). The armored troops has it's eye level at 40-42mm most likely so how is that considered a 35mm model? Are these 54mm scale model? 75mm? their FAQ answer is clear as fething mud. Put a ruler next to the things so we can see if it's actually 40mm to the eye (or 35mm or 37mm), if it's 40mm as it currently looks to be start calling it a 40mm game (by the measurement criteria you've described) and be done with it. .
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Post by: Artemis Black
 basement.dweller wrote:Can anyone with Scale75 colors measure the size of a bottle? I've been googling for the info, but no luck.
You don't need to, although apparently it's around 75mm. That photo in the post above is enough as Terminators are ~37mm tall, That makes that human around 40mm and not in any way '35mm to the eyes".
Moving their guys over to the side of the regular sized minis you get this...
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Post by: Sean_OBrien
 paulson games wrote: Delephont wrote:There was a photo on their Facebook page with their models alongside some other company products, including a SM and a Termite......just saying....
scale games wrote:
▻ Which scale do you use for Fallen Frontiers figures?
At Scale games we have chosen to scale O (O gauge), where 7 mm correspond to 1 foot.
In this way a model of 1.80 m (6.8 ft) in reality, will measure 40 mm in total.
When we say that a human is 35 mm in FF we refer up to the eyes, not total, since is commonly used as a standar among brands selling kits of 54 or 75 mm.
Yet they are still claiming the minis are 35mm on their main page FAQ, the terminator is 37mm to the top yet it's not eye level with the unarmored troop (who's eye level seem to be at least 39-40mm tall). The armored troops has it's eye level at 40-42mm most likely so how is that considered a 35mm model? Are these 54mm scale model? 75mm? their FAQ answer is clear as fething mud. .
It works (sort of...if you ignore their own confusion). The figures do look to scale out at UK O Gauge (7mm per foot). A 6 foot tall individual would be 42mm tall flat footed, 43 or so wearing any sort of boot. The regular guy in their picture would only stand 6'4" tall - above average, sure...but I think that is probably on purpose and still perfectly within the realm of realistic sizes.
Based on the confusion within there own ranks on what they are writing - I really do think they fell victim to the 1/48 versus 1/43 issue relating to O gauge.
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Post by: basement.dweller
That was only one reason I was wondering  I built myself the best paintrack that money can't buy to fit my needs and I did my research for the paints I normally use. There are slight variations between the brands but I made the tolerance levels so I could fit Reaper, Vallejo and Army Painter. Unfortunately I can't walk in to a store over here and pick up a Scale color bottle to check.
Also I might as well repost this as it might be relevant to some.
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Post by: Piston Honda
From the random platypus forum
47mm to the neck of the bottle
ignore the size comparison of this photo as it is photo shopped
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Post by: basement.dweller
@Piston Thanks that helps a lot actually.
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Post by: Artemis Black
 Sean_OBrien wrote: paulson games wrote: Delephont wrote:There was a photo on their Facebook page with their models alongside some other company products, including a SM and a Termite......just saying....
scale games wrote:
▻ Which scale do you use for Fallen Frontiers figures?
At Scale games we have chosen to scale O (O gauge), where 7 mm correspond to 1 foot.
In this way a model of 1.80 m (6.8 ft) in reality, will measure 40 mm in total.
When we say that a human is 35 mm in FF we refer up to the eyes, not total, since is commonly used as a standar among brands selling kits of 54 or 75 mm.
Yet they are still claiming the minis are 35mm on their main page FAQ, the terminator is 37mm to the top yet it's not eye level with the unarmored troop (who's eye level seem to be at least 39-40mm tall). The armored troops has it's eye level at 40-42mm most likely so how is that considered a 35mm model? Are these 54mm scale model? 75mm? their FAQ answer is clear as fething mud. .
It works (sort of...if you ignore their own confusion). The figures do look to scale out at UK O Gauge (7mm per foot). A 6 foot tall individual would be 42mm tall flat footed, 43 or so wearing any sort of boot. The regular guy in their picture would only stand 6'4" tall - above average, sure...but I think that is probably on purpose and still perfectly within the realm of realistic sizes.
Based on the confusion within there own ranks on what they are writing - I really do think they fell victim to the 1/48 versus 1/43 issue relating to O gauge.
The most obvious reason it doesn't work is that if it's 7mm to 1ft and 35mm to the eyes then that quite clearly means their average male human is only 5ft to the eyes. Which is stupid
7mm to 1ft loooks perfect for what they've produced, everything else, including the 6.8ft typo is rubbish. 7mm to 1ft is a 40mm game. Just cal it a damn 40mm game. I can't belive we're well over 2 weeks into this and they still won't just come out and admit it's a 40mm game.
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Post by: Pilgrim_uk
Think Bones hit the nail on the head with the use of train gauges but the confusion would be killed stone dead if they had a tape measure beside several figures.
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Post by: Alpharius
As much as I want this one to fund NOW, during this campaign, this is looking less and less likely.
The last 5 days have seen over 60 backers and £10K leave the project, with no end to the bleeding in sight.
A cancellation here and a revamp, with clearly stated sizes, materials and goals seems to be the only recourse now.
And I'll be there for that, if they choose to do it!
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Post by: plastictrees
Scale just addressed the heavy use of spanish in the comments section, which I'm sure has put some people off to an extent.
They seemed to have been discussing the 'value' of the kickstarter, suggesting that the funding goal should be lower, with closer stretch goals.
Which is nuts and shows that some people really don't have a grasp on the reality of these sort of projects.
Those sorts of comments seem much more destructive than the genuine production concerns that had everyone losing their minds.
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Post by: Delephont
Lol.....I really do understand the scale issue, but I find it very amusing that somehow WH40K has become the yardstick for the debate. Back when I played WH40K I remember having lengthy discussions about how the GW minis didn't respect the fluff for their own game....the fact that my super Marines were often the same size or smaller than an imperial guard really hampered my attempts at suspension of disbelief!
It's ironic that one of the knives in the back of this project is its inability to ape GW's f'd-up sense of human proportion and scaling.....when I see things like this I realise there is truely no limit to how fundamentally GW has screwed up tabletop wargaming......I'm thankful I got out when I did!
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Post by: Alpharius
So, for Constructive Criticism:
IF/WHEN they relaunch:
1) Clear declaration of materials to be used, at specific funding levels - but be VERY clear that there is no HIPs unitl (X)
2) Representative resin miniature sample pic on the Front Page
3) Scale shot with ruler on the Front Page, along with sample miniatures from popular ranges
4) Lower initial funding goal for 'just' the box set, with expansion factions as stretch goals at $(X) intervals
5) Work with a native English speaker to help doublecheck and polish as many 'official' posts and updates as possible
Helpful, but maybe not strictly necessary:
6) RE-launch as "USA" based so as to use that oh so attractive "$"
Thoughts?
Other suggestions?
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Post by: plastictrees
Delephont wrote:Lol.....I really do understand the scale issue, but I find it very amusing that somehow WH40K has become the yardstick for the debate. Back when I played WH40K I remember having lengthy discussions about how the GW minis didn't respect the fluff for their own game....the fact that my super Marines were often the same size or smaller than an imperial guard really hampered my attempts at suspension of disbelief!
It's ironic that one of the knives in the back of this project is its inability to ape GW's f'd-up sense of human proportion and scaling.....when I see things like this I realise there is truely no limit to how fundamentally GW has screwed up tabletop wargaming......I'm thankful I got out when I did!
I don't think that's the issue, everyone just knows how big a marine is so that is the physical comparison point. People are more concerned that these guys are going to dwarf all their existing Infinity, Deadzone etc. terrain.
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Post by: Piston Honda
To a degree, I agree with a lower level of funding, but have merchandise re-worked to accommodated such change.
For the sake of example.
60k gets it funded, but only 2 armies with a limited number of sculpts.
They bit off a lot more than they can chew.
If they try to offer tons of miniatures for little cost you are going to get what you paid for,
Quality cost money.
Perhaps some people thinking otherwise can squat and gak gold for SG.
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Post by: plastictrees
Alpharius wrote:So, for Constructive Criticism:
IF/WHEN they relaunch:
1) Clear declaration of materials to be used, at specific funding levels - but be VERY clear that there is no HIPs unitl (X)
2) Representative resin miniature sample pic on the Front Page
3) Scale shot with ruler on the Front Page, along with sample miniatures from popular ranges
4) Lower initial funding goal for 'just' the box set, with expansion factions as stretch goals at $(X) intervals
5) Work with a native English speaker to help doublecheck and polish as many 'official' posts and updates as possible
Helpful, but maybe not strictly necessary:
6) RE-launch as "USA" based so as to use that oh so attractive "$"
Thoughts?
Other suggestions?
I think that would cover it. As I've said before I was very impressed by the first impression of this campaign, they had done a lot of things right on the surface.
What's the most succesful tabletop or miniatures campaign that ran in pounds sterling? Darklands?
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Post by: Alpharius
Delephont wrote:Lol.....I really do understand the scale issue, but I find it very amusing that somehow WH40K has become the yardstick for the debate. Back when I played WH40K I remember having lengthy discussions about how the GW minis didn't respect the fluff for their own game....the fact that my super Marines were often the same size or smaller than an imperial guard really hampered my attempts at suspension of disbelief!
It's ironic that one of the knives in the back of this project is its inability to ape GW's f'd-up sense of human proportion and scaling.....when I see things like this I realise there is truely no limit to how fundamentally GW has screwed up tabletop wargaming......I'm thankful I got out when I did!
Yeah, GW's sense of 'scale' and 'proportion' really has created a generation (or two?) of gamers that have some odd ideas on what looks good!
So, Delephont, since you've purged GW, what games are you playing these days then?
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Post by: Fraggle
Like I said in their comments, possibly smaller ks exclusive stretch goals in between blister pack/faction stretch such as weapon packs or little scenery pieces - just something to keep momentum up whilst the money funds units. Plus people like little ks exclusive extras but they shouldnt be so great that they put off post kickstarter buyers (Im looking at you zombiecide!)
I really think a scale change is needed for this to take off in a big way. It'll stay niche if not as many (probably including me) would rather use their existing stockpile of scenery.
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Post by: AlexHolker
If it was me, I'd try to use the results of this Kickstarter to secure a loan to produce one sprue of HIPS. I'd then use that one sprue of HIPS to secure Kickstarter funding for the rest of the range.
I'd also like to see a starter with a higher concentration of miniatures that I personally would want to buy, but that's just me.
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Post by: Pilgrim_uk
Now If Scales games were to talk to Tre Manor in how things can go awry.....
Those who dont know the histories of kickstarters are doomed to repeat them.
Brother carphaelus 1692
@plastictrees
Yeah think it would be Darklands it would have probably doubled its money if it wasn't for the unpleasantness beforehand.
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Post by: cincydooley
Pilgrim_uk wrote:Now If Scales games were to talk to Tre Manor in how things can go awry.....
@plastictrees
Yeah think it would be Darklands it would have probably doubled its money if it wasn't for the unpleasantness beforehand.
I think it would have made more were it in USD as well.
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Post by: Pilgrim_uk
You are probably right about that Dooley might have even reached kingdom death levels then.
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Post by: cincydooley
Pilgrim_uk wrote:You are probably right about that Dooley might have even reached kingdom death levels then.
We'll maybe not that high .
But I do think having the USD instead of the GBP helps. Which is funny of course because the GBP is stronger.
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Post by: Artemis Black
I think listening to the randoms in the comments section is a huge mistake. You can't design an entire kickstarter by committee. Most of these people have no idea what they are talking about in reality (Not insulting this particualr group, in general most people have no idea what they are talking about unless they actually do whatever it is for a living etc. Just like I wouldn't expect anyone to listen to me if I was commenting in a tech-based kickstarter).
It's nice to get involved and show support but the worst thing SG can do is just keep changing thinsg based on the opinion of a random few people. They have their own vision and right now they have no idea how many people are into it or not cos what they presented was about 4 or 5 completely different visions.
This still has a good chance of funding, what they need to do to give it the best chance is just come out and state a bunch of stuff directly (and in English and Spanish, how hard is it to hire a native English speaker to run a kickstarter that's in English?).
"We are a 40mm game"
"Our minis will be in resin (A mistake imo but it's what they've said so they're stuck with it now)"
"If we make £130k we'll start to produce some minis, starting with the core boxset, in HIPS (I still don't think they mean 'everything' in HIPS)"
"Our Beta rules are the basic core of the game, they will be greatly expanded and properly translated into English as the project goes on"
"We are immediately removing any minis from the advertising that are not what you will actually get i.e. the 75mm ones"
"We are asking our graphics guy to photoshop 25mm bases onto any relevant minis so you can see actual size"
"Sorry for any confusion in the early parts of this KS"
"p.s. We have sent an errand boy to the local hobby store to buy 15 metal rulers and will be giving one to everyone involved in our company"
No idea if that'll be enough to stop the rot but at least they'll know these people aren't leaving cos they haven't got a clue what's going on. I mean if not enough people are into a 40mm wargame in the first place then they're screwed regardless. Having a load of painters be a fan of larger minis doesn't help that much when you're trying to market a game not a line of minis. They already do larger scale versions of some of these minis that painters can get.
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Post by: weeble1000
Tre has always been very explicit about what scale he uses. He just doesn't normally post comparison photos or photos of his models next to a ruler, so it is an issue of people not knowing what 33mm true to scale means.
Comparison photos and photos next to a ruler are always the best way to go in my opinion.
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Post by: Pilgrim_uk
During Journey wrath of demons two distinct camps came out those who wanted plastic and those who wanted resin. I think the resin is putting off a lot of gamers so will it stop the rot even if they do all thats listed but no plastic is in from the start.
People like options. ( thats an opinion from a random)
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Post by: shasolenzabi
from scale games rep: "May be you are right...
We thought in making them for gamers and for collectors. Big mistake.
Thank you very much for your help.
It is very well appreciated.
Best wishes from Spain."
In a PM discussion with them thru KS
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Post by: Delephont
Alpharius wrote:
So, Delephont, since you've purged GW, what games are you playing these days then?
Well, after dropping GW, I toyed with MERCS and Infinity, even a little Malifaux.....the problem was finding regular players in my area who were willing to try something new. Considering that my first love is modelling and painting, the enthusiasm to keep pushing up the hill died along with my tabletop gaming 'career'.....now I model and paint almost exclusively at scales ranging from 54mm and upwards to 1/4 scale.
My only requirement for anything under 54mm is for roleplay games (Pathfinder, Eclipse Phase, Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay and Dark Heresy, etc).....that's why this kick starter grabbed my attention
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Post by: insaniak
Delephont wrote:Lol.....I really do understand the scale issue, but I find it very amusing that somehow WH40K has become the yardstick for the debate. Back when I played WH40K I remember having lengthy discussions about how the GW minis didn't respect the fluff for their own game....the fact that my super Marines were often the same size or smaller than an imperial guard really hampered my attempts at suspension of disbelief!
It's ironic that one of the knives in the back of this project is its inability to ape GW's f'd-up sense of human proportion and scaling.....when I see things like this I realise there is truely no limit to how fundamentally GW has screwed up tabletop wargaming......I'm thankful I got out when I did!
Being an appropriate size for 40K doesn't require models to use the same wonky proportions.
But again, fitting into 40K isn't really the only issue with the scale. As has been mentioned several times now, they don't fit with existing terrain collections, and that's an issue for some gamers.
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Post by: Delephont
 insaniak wrote: Delephont wrote:Lol.....I really do understand the scale issue, but I find it very amusing that somehow WH40K has become the yardstick for the debate. Back when I played WH40K I remember having lengthy discussions about how the GW minis didn't respect the fluff for their own game....the fact that my super Marines were often the same size or smaller than an imperial guard really hampered my attempts at suspension of disbelief!
It's ironic that one of the knives in the back of this project is its inability to ape GW's f'd-up sense of human proportion and scaling.....when I see things like this I realise there is truely no limit to how fundamentally GW has screwed up tabletop wargaming......I'm thankful I got out when I did!
Being an appropriate size for 40K doesn't require models to use the same wonky proportions.
But again, fitting into 40K isn't really the only issue with the scale. As has been mentioned several times now, they don't fit with existing terrain collections, and that's an issue for some gamers.
To be fair, the debate has flip flopped back and forth between the miniatures being suitable proxies to the terrain issue.....in both cases the argument is flawed, in particular when WH40K is the assumed 'baseline'. As I said a few pages back, even GW doesn't respect the scale of its miniatures in relation to vehicles / buildings. If they did, a Landraider would need to be at least 1.5 times larger than it is, and that's just to accommodate its own rules....let alone fluff. So running this project down on the basis of scale relationship to buildings and vehicles, when arguably, one of, if not, THE most successful tabletop wargames has gotten away with it for decades is laughable at best, disturbing at worst.
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Post by: cincydooley
Pilgrim_uk wrote:During Journey wrath of demons two distinct camps came out those who wanted plastic and those who wanted resin. I think the resin is putting off a lot of gamers so will it stop the rot even if they do all thats listed but no plastic is in from the start.
People like options. ( thats an opinion from a random)
That was never a problem. They always offered both.
People want the resins to paint.
Further, Journey was ALWAYS marketed as a board game.
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Post by: RiTides
Why are you talking about a land raider as if it's terrain? 
Buildings are scaled much better than vehicles, imo- at least assuming unarmed people inhabit them.
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Post by: Delephont
 RiTides wrote:Why are you talking about a land raider as if it's terrain? .
It's called an "example"........ And the last time I looked the buildings weren't much better (scale wise) then their vehicles. Clearly you don't agree, so let's simply agree to disagree.....
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Post by: RiTides
Agreeing to disagree is totally fine- but I don't think a land raider is a reasonable example when taking about terrain (which is what insaniak was referring to).
If you want to talk about buildings, Cities of Death or something would make sense. I'd be really interested in that, actually...
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Post by: insaniak
Delephont wrote:So running this project down on the basis of scale relationship to buildings and vehicles, when arguably, one of, if not, THE most successful tabletop wargames has gotten away with it for decades is laughable at best, disturbing at worst.
They've 'gotten away with it' in that people buy the stuff anyway... but people have been complaining about GW wonky scaling and proportions for as long as GW have been producing models with winky scaling and proportions.
So it really shouldn't be too surprising when people complain about another company planning on producing models in a dodgy scale.
You're trying to create a double standard here that just doesn't exist. Scale issues are scale issues regardless of who makes the models.
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Post by: Krinsath
This has been a most unfortunate weekend for this project, and that truly is a sad thing regardless of how self-inflicted these problems may be.
However, in the interests of identifying where the project went awry, let's not get lost in the weeds. I believe in terms of miniatures KS, Kingdom Death: Monster would be considered a "flagship" example. Let's remember that it too has a "wonky" scale of 35mm, had an initial offering of PVC or resin (yes, HIPS is now coming to much rejoicing, but the backers would have pledged for PVC), didn't have a ton of gameplay examples available during the campaign and had incredibly polarizing themes/depictions on top of all of that.
Another recent example with a less illustrious pedigree would be Super Dungeon Explore: Forgotten King, produced by a company with a very shaky KS history with one project horribly behind schedule (Relic Knights), another plagued by questionable designs and also horribly behind schedule (Robotech), and a handful of others that had many people openly leery and negative in the early goings of the campaign for a variety of reasons. For added fun, there were even questions about the financial health of the company to finish it's *current* obligations, never mind adding on this one.
So, both campaigns had many of the exact same issues we are pointing at from our armchairs saying that's the reason they're failing. Yet, both campaigns cleared the million dollar mark (KD:M substantial more so) and both seem to have reasonably content backers despite delays for KD:M and the aforementioned company issues with SPM/ND. So, what makes them so different from FF?
Well, one thing they both obviously had was an established brand to fall back on. That's big, and nothing Scale can really do to emulate that at this point. However, in the particulars of the campaign, and where I feel Scale has made a total mess of things (boy this armchair is comfy), is that they presented their vision consistently and coherently. There was never doubts about where the creators wanted their respective projects to go, and they had their ideas planned out well in advance and went with the "you can come if you want" approach. That's going to garner you more faith than trying to please everyone, and backer faith is the most important currency you can have during a KS campaign because that's the only reason you're going to see more traditional currency afterwards.
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Post by: RiTides
 Krinsath wrote:However, in the interests of identifying where the project went awry, let's not get lost in the weeds. I believe in terms of miniatures KS, Kingdom Death: Monster would be considered a "flagship" example. Let's remember that it too has a "wonky" scale of 35mm, had an initial offering of PVC or resin (yes, HIPS is now coming to much rejoicing, but the backers would have pledged for PVC), didn't have a ton of gameplay examples available during the campaign and had incredibly polarizing themes/depictions on top of all of that.
Those issues, primarily his evasiveness about material, are why KD is one of the few KS I've had to back out on... I also grilled him with questions about the material in particular. Personally, I am just unwilling to risk that much without even having the material identified during the campaign.
That said, now that they've clarified that the models will be resin here, I'd be tempted... but I just can't see myself using them for much else given their size. I know it might be okay for others, of course, just speaking for myself here.
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Post by: Artemis Black
Krinsath wrote:
So, both campaigns had many of the exact same issues we are pointing at from our armchairs saying that's the reason they're failing. Yet, both campaigns cleared the million dollar mark ( KD:M substantial more so) and both seem to have reasonably content backers despite delays for KD:M and the aforementioned company issues with SPM/ND. So, what makes them so different from FF?
Both of them told you everything up front? KD didn't lie about it's size/ And the 'wonky scale' is actually within margin of error to mix with other things, KD is probably smaller than Dark Sword and on par with a number of other fantasy miniatures. FF isn't on par with pretty much anythign I can think of, as a sci-fi game it's practically out there on it's own.
The comparisons aren't working for me sorry. The problems I see with this kickstarter were that they were misleading about the size, they didn't seem to know what they were making their minis out of at all and gave misleading answers about that too and when they finally released the rules for their game they were barely existent. 3 weeks in 2 of those 3 issues still exist.
KD had a huge customer base beforehand, they sold their brands very well despite polarising opinion, their rules being iffy mattered considerably less because of what they were selling and they said up front what size things were and what they were making them out of. After that the decision was the backers.
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Post by: cincydooley
Yeah. I don't see KD:M as a valid comparison to this at all. Neither is Super Dungeon: Forgotten King.
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Post by: RiTides
One clarification, Artemis- Kingdom Death did not know what kind of plastic they would use at the start of the campaign. They funded well enough for HIPS, which is good, because the "Experiment of Death" in PVC is only okay, not stellar. But that uncertainty is why I chose not to back it, even though it turned out fantastically now (or is seeming like it will, although it is very delayed as most HIPS campaigns tend to be).
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Post by: Guildsman
Artemis Black wrote: Krinsath wrote:
So, both campaigns had many of the exact same issues we are pointing at from our armchairs saying that's the reason they're failing. Yet, both campaigns cleared the million dollar mark ( KD:M substantial more so) and both seem to have reasonably content backers despite delays for KD:M and the aforementioned company issues with SPM/ND. So, what makes them so different from FF?
Both of them told you everything up front? KD didn't lie about it's size/ And the 'wonky scale' is actually within margin of error to mix with other things, KD is probably smaller than Dark Sword and on par with a number of other fantasy miniatures. FF isn't on par with pretty much anythign I can think of, as a sci-fi game it's practically out there on it's own.
The comparisons aren't working for me sorry. The problems I see with this kickstarter were that they were misleading about the size, they didn't seem to know what they were making their minis out of at all and gave misleading answers about that too and when they finally released the rules for their game they were barely existent. 3 weeks in 2 of those 3 issues still exist.
KD had a huge customer base beforehand, they sold their brands very well despite polarising opinion, their rules being iffy mattered considerably less because of what they were selling and they said up front what size things were and what they were making them out of. After that the decision was the backers.
Precisely. In the case of KD:M, the creator changed the game from PVC (I think?) to polystyrene midway through the process because he felt it wasn't good enough otherwise, and plainly said so. It's that dedication to quality (and frankly stunning art direction) that led so many to trust KD with so much money.
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Post by: Pilgrim_uk
That was never a problem. They always offered both.
People want the resins to paint.
Further, Journey was ALWAYS marketed as a board game.
But in FF maybe that is the problem not offering both from the start on 2 adjacent tracks like journey. FF was marketed as a board game as well from the start of campaign.
I think the campaign is turned to the better for me who's not a boardgamer ( If i did starti playing board games then people would call it grooming) Resin and 45mm+ minis.
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Post by: PsychoticStorm
I am not sure if this campaign needed or deserved the flack it got, especially form peers, maybe it did maybe it didn't, I do hope nobody complains when their kickstarter gets flack because, reasons.....
Scale is not an issue, I will be gravely sad to learn that people cannot try different things and we are stuck in Ford's "any colour" (although this been as long as it is 28mm) situation, terrain ectr was never in scale and will never be for the simple reason a house takes to much space, but even if it was created the bases give the models a bigger occupation space they would normally have.
Also I have to ask since the models have been shown to be the real thing, why I still read the comments about them been 75mm?
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Post by: Yonan
 PsychoticStorm wrote:Scale is not an issue, I will be gravely sad to learn that people cannot try different things and we are stuck in Ford's "any colour" (although this been as long as it is 28mm) situation, terrain ectr was never in scale and will never be for the simple reason a house takes to much space, but even if it was created the bases give the models a bigger occupation space they would normally have.
I'm glad it's not an issue *for you*. For many of us it is as we play many games in the 28mm (ish) range, and having kits released in that area lets us use those models in this game, these in that game, and bits from one games kits with anothers - kitbashing is a huge part of this hobby for me. If the game can stand on its own as a great game, sure scale isn't an issue as the rules will be good and therefore the models will have a use int hat game - even then though, it limits our ability to use models from other ranges in this game which is not ideal. We have no idea if the game is any good though. The reason we (I at least) pay for models and games site unseen is because, even if the game fizzles we'll still have the minis for use in other games. If these minis are too large to use in other games it becomes a complete waste of money as both the rules and models become useless. I will be gravely sad if you continue to dismiss others concerns and just continue to assume that your way is the one true way for all people.
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Post by: Krinsath
Artemis Black wrote:
Both of them told you everything up front? KD didn't lie about it's size/ And the 'wonky scale' is actually within margin of error to mix with other things, KD is probably smaller than Dark Sword and on par with a number of other fantasy miniatures. FF isn't on par with pretty much anythign I can think of, as a sci-fi game it's practically out there on it's own.
The comparisons aren't working for me sorry. The problems I see with this kickstarter were that they were misleading about the size, they didn't seem to know what they were making their minis out of at all and gave misleading answers about that too and when they finally released the rules for their game they were barely existent. 3 weeks in 2 of those 3 issues still exist.
KD had a huge customer base beforehand, they sold their brands very well despite polarising opinion, their rules being iffy mattered considerably less because of what they were selling and they said up front what size things were and what they were making them out of. After that the decision was the backers.
So, you're basically saying the same point a different way? Both successes presented their project clearly and all these other issues they shared with Scale and a few more besides went by the wayside. While not a perfect comparison, since both products had large followings already, I do believe being clear and consistent (i.e. - not misleading, in your words) in the campaign was the core reason. Scale has NOT presented it clearly, and their campaign suffers. The core reason, IMO, is that clear communication builds faith while unclear communication builds doubt. None of the other issues really matter in comparison, which was my point in the comparisons. Had either campaign appeared as muddled and indecisive as this one, I don't think their existing brands would have gotten them their levels of success. Funding, sure, but no 7+ figures.
That's not to dismiss material and scale questions as immaterial; they are a big deal as Yonan points out and Alpharius made clear. However, if you know what you're getting you will pledge or not based on your individual preferences. If you don't know what you're getting and/or can't get an answer, then it usually becomes a matter of "not" as RiTides shows.
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Post by: PsychoticStorm
 Yonan wrote: PsychoticStorm wrote:Scale is not an issue, I will be gravely sad to learn that people cannot try different things and we are stuck in Ford's "any colour" (although this been as long as it is 28mm) situation, terrain ectr was never in scale and will never be for the simple reason a house takes to much space, but even if it was created the bases give the models a bigger occupation space they would normally have.
I'm glad it's not an issue *for you*. For many of us it is as we play many games in the 28mm (ish) range, and having kits released in that area lets us use those models in this game, these in that game, and bits from one games kits with anothers - kitbashing is a huge part of this hobby for me. If the game can stand on its own as a great game, sure scale isn't an issue as the rules will be good and therefore the models will have a use int hat game - even then though, it limits our ability to use models from other ranges in this game which is not ideal. We have no idea if the game is any good though. The reason we (I at least) pay for models and games site unseen is because, even if the game fizzles we'll still have the minis for use in other games. If these minis are too large to use in other games it becomes a complete waste of money as both the rules and models become useless.
I will be gravely sad if you continue to dismiss others concerns and just continue to assume that your way is the one true way for all people.
If that was the case we would have been sentenced to a life of GW analog proportions and marvels like Infinity would have never been realized.
I was mostly referring to terrain and compatibility with it, but secondary on the fact that may people view any new game system not as a game system but as something to use as a substitute for their 40k games, ok GW is popular, but really I would rather see manufacturers start doing their own thing and not have their main concern be "will my range be compatible with GW's"
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Post by: Yonan
PsychoticStorm wrote: If that was the case we would have been sentenced to a life of GW analog proportions and marvels like Infinity would have never been realized.
Only if all companies tried to get customers to assume all the risk of a new system by kickstarting their games. I was mostly referring to terrain and compatibility with it, but secondary on the fact that may people view any new game system not as a game system but as something to use as a substitute for their 40k games, ok GW is popular, but really I would rather see manufacturers start doing their own thing and not have their main concern be "will my range be compatible with GW's"
It's not just 40k, it's many games. If anything, given GWs ridiculous "heroic" scale, most 28-32mm ranges work better with each other than with GW. I've seen people talking about kickstarters that ended up having bad rules, but "at least I can use the models with x game." I've used my Dreamforge minis - which has no game system yet - for 40k and Dreadball, and once Warpath is released probably in that too. Many people will have no use for these minis outside of this game due to scale concerns, so if it turns out bad it's a complete write-off - that's why it's an issue. It's fine if these guys want to do their own scale, good on 'em. I just took issue with you saying "scale isn't an issue".
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Post by: Agamemnon2
Oh my. I have to say, I'm in love with the Riff. Really nice take on the space-orcish archetype without being too cartoonish. I have no use for the game, but I might drop a small pledge for a squad or two, because the resin production quality looks decent, and they say they won't use PVC. I sympathise with people who are skeptical about nonstandard scales, though as primarily a painter and modeler these days, it's not a concern for me. Each diorama only has to be in scale with itself, after all.
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Post by: Bioptic
Yep, personally I'm in precisely for the large, detailed figures - they are both easier to paint and a more impressive sight, particularly in squads. And if the base figures are large, the stompy mech suits will surely be even more so!
I am at least intrigued by the game system, although will be running the risk that it's less than great. Frankly, I did the same with Dreadball, Deadzone, Relic Knights, Kingdom Death...virtually no non-boardgame Kickstarters actually show you finished rules ahead of time anyway.
I can completely understand how a non-standard scale might put people off, as miniatures are expensive enough that you'd want to re-use them wherever possible, but for me it's the other way around - I have no need for even more generic 28mm guys in power armour!
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Post by: zedmeister
Do you know what, I am getting more and more tempted to drop a few coins on this. I am intrigued by the minis.
Wonder if they'll allow after KS pledge boosts?
Scale doesn't really bother me that much as I'm a purist - I prefer to keep my miniatures look to match the universe they are fighting in. The scale itself doesn't look like it'd be incompatible with most 30mm scenery anyway...
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Post by: Alpharius
This one's in a free-fall now, sadly.
Not sure how to stop the bleeding, other than via a cancellation and a relaunch in a month or two.
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Post by: Agamemnon2
Seems puzzling. If I slog through the entire thread, I wonder if the reasons for this campaign failing will become apparent?
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Post by: Alpharius
Maybe?
I'd like to know your thoughts!
I think it was down to uncertainty/ambiguity at the start, and then a bailout once HIPs was off the table, for all intents and purposes.
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Post by: Delephont
Yonan wrote:
It's fine if these guys want to do their own scale, good on 'em. I just took issue with you saying "scale isn't an issue".
I guess scale is as much a non issue as it is an issue. I guess there is not right or wrong way to view it. I agree with one point that seems to come up, and that is compatibility over new. It seems like the general thought is, if you're going to " walk your own line" you need to make a complete product, good minis and good rules. If you're just trying to sell minis and the rules are simply an excuse, then it makes sense to create those minis with other more established games systems in mind........
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Post by: Artemis Black
I am getting really tired of people saying 'scale doesn't matter'.
You know who clearly think scale matters? This damn kickstarter. That's why they have done everything possible to not tell people what scale they were actually getting.
Nobody, and I mean nobody, makes a bunch of miniatures in a scaleof "7mm to 1ft", does a load of 3d prints, measures them, realises that they are all over 40mm and then thinks 'Let's call this a 35mm game' unless they absolutely think 'scale in an issue'.
Nobody avoids the question for days, nobody posts the worlds' smallest scale photo in an update only and leaves it there to slide down the many pages and nobody continues never to correct this unless 'they' think 'scale is an issue'.
3 weeks into a kickstarter, 1 week into a disastrous freefall, and they 'still' don't step forward and change their own misleading FAQ, they still don't correct the incorrect assuptionsof anyone mentioning it in the comments, they 'still' haven't posted one. single. shot. with a damn ruler in it.
People crying about 'toxic people' in the kickstarter comments. The only toxic people I see are people trying to throw mud at random forums for a kickstarters failings and a bunch of people running a kickstarter without telling their backers the bloody truth. It isn't hard. Here I'll do it for them.
"We are a 40mm game and have spent 3 weeks trying to pretend otherwise, we really hoped you wouldn't notice."
I couldnt give a flying monkey's tump how big the minis are, if I wanted them i'd buy them if they were a 63mm game. Good for you if you think 40 odd mm minis are the next sliced bread or you love them for painting or whatever. Not remotely relevant to the issue. The issue is if someone tells me I'm buying one thing and sends me another they get them back via a very uncomfortable method.
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Post by: Agamemnon2
....oooh-kay. Backing away at quite a speed now. I don't think I want any part in something this controversial.
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Post by: Nostromodamus
Their only comments lately seem to be about the world cup.
Seems they should really be concentrating more on saving their sinking ship by addressing outstanding concerns than discussing football.
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Post by: Zond
This is getting beyond a farce and few backers understand why. Pretty close to pulling the plug and watching it sink.
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Post by: Delephont
 Alex C wrote:Their only comments lately seem to be about the world cup.
Seems they should really be concentrating more on saving their sinking ship by addressing outstanding concerns than discussing football.
I noticed this as well, which I thought was strange......given the state of their project. it seems like even they have given up.....which really says it all.
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Post by: Alpharius
Scale Games has to be thinking about pulling the plug, reorganizing and relaunching in a few months.
Under £82K, and no signs of stopping.
I really want this one to succeed and fund - but it is looking like they need to restart this.
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Post by: Zond
Well, the fat lady sang and pulled the plug.
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Post by: Yonan
Zond wrote:Well, the fat lady sang and pulled the plug.
Funding Canceled Funding for this project was canceled by the project creator 4 minutes ago.
Indeed.
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Post by: Alpharius
Indeed:
Creator SCALE GAMES 6 minutes ago
Hi guys:
After several days of hard working trying to make this campaign a success, and after realizing that we cant reach the minimum goal to fund this project. We have decided to cancel funding and rethink the way of release of our product.
Fallen Frontiers is a real project, a project that has come to stay, and a project created and backed by great professionals from miniatures and wargames world. Even so we have decided to learn from our mistakes and fix them in order to return stronger.
Scale Games team wants to thank you all for your support, for your backing and for your comments during this campaign. To All the backers, shops, forums, blogs, general media and also to our friends and family who have been unconditionally on our side during this Kickstarter. THANK YOU A LOT!!! Even for your severe critics that made our project to grow bigger.
You will soon realize that we have learned a lot from this experience!
Many of you have trusted on us and we would like that to stay that way since Fallen Frontiers is going forward. If you want to keep up to date with Fallen Frontiers information , you can register on our mailing list ( http://www.fallenfrontiers.com/contact.html ) or follow us on our media ( www.facebook.com/fallenfrontiers and www.fallenfrontiers.com )
Again, Thank you all! And see you soon! Kind regards.
SCALE GAMES TEAM
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Post by: Necros
Well hopefully they fix up their issues and relaunch soon with things more streamlined. They have some nice looking sculpts.
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Post by: Alpharius
Agreed!
Though the closing message didn't make it seem like a new KS campaign is a quarantee...
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Post by: Agamemnon2
I'm guessing this campaign joins Thon and Gates of Antares in obscurity. Both of those promised they'd be back stronger than ever, and neither ever did, after all. GoA is the Could-Have-Been-King of miniatures wargaming, and this looks like a fine addition to its menagerie of Never-Weres.
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Post by: Guildsman
 Agamemnon2 wrote:I'm guessing this campaign joins Thon and Gates of Antares in obscurity. Both of those promised they'd be back stronger than ever, and neither ever did, after all. GoA is the Could-Have-Been-King of miniatures wargaming, and this looks like a fine addition to its menagerie of Never-Weres.
Probably. Just out of curiosity, have any campaigns actually cancelled midway and then funded on a relaunch? Can't think of any off the top of my head, I'm probably wrong.
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Post by: Pilgrim_uk
I'm sure its a hard lesson learned. Looking forward to those mini's coming back.
@guildsman
Didn't red box games cancel a campaign then was funded the second time round.
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Post by: RiTides
Yes, Red Box Games has done it in the past, and Mechadrome is doing it currently (the link is to the Dakka thread on it).
Cancelling and re-launching is a great way to go to re-focus your campaign, imo. No shame in it... I'll be watching for the re-launch here and approaching it with an open mind. If they stick with resin, it'll be tempting... particularly if there is a way simply to get a few add-ons rather than the full box to give them a try first.
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Post by: insaniak
Creator SCALE GAMES 6 minutes ago
Hi guys:
After several days of hard working trying to make this campaign a success, ...
That's dedication, right there... I can't imagine spending days on something that I really want to succeed.
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Post by: plastictrees
insaniak wrote:Creator SCALE GAMES 6 minutes ago
Hi guys:
After several days of hard working trying to make this campaign a success, ...
That's dedication, right there... I can't imagine spending days on something that I really want to succeed.
You're such a sourpuss.
There's a certain threshold where having this campaign limp along while they frantically try to fix things is more damaging than cancelling. I think they realised that their effort could be better spent from the ground up than applying stretch goal band-aids for another week and a half. Automatically Appended Next Post: Agamemnon2 wrote:I'm guessing this campaign joins Thon and Gates of Antares in obscurity. Both of those promised they'd be back stronger than ever, and neither ever did, after all. GoA is the Could-Have-Been-King of miniatures wargaming, and this looks like a fine addition to its menagerie of Never-Weres.
Scale certainly has their gak together in a way that GoA couldn't even conceive of, and THON seemed to be one guy more or less.
I'll be surprised if this doesn't come back in some way.
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Post by: Alpharius
I'll be surprised AND disappointed!
They should meet, go over what worked and what didn't, then re-launch a clear and concise campaign, and I think they'll do very well.
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Post by: Necros
They have nice looking art and minis and what looks to be a cool game world. I think if they did it more stripped down and offered the game as a traditional skirmish game with a rulebook and minis, rather than a big boxed game, they would do much better and would also have a much lower funding goal.
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Post by: 455_PWR
This is really a shame, I watched, waited, and pledged towards the end of the campaign. They really had beautiful minis (yay for resin!) and some good ideas. I personally like the scale too for a smaller skirmish game as the minis look better, are more detailed, and make better collector/display pieces (the minis were also realistically scaled and not 40k cartoonish).
Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but it's amazing that a little negativity can take down a project like this. :( I think they weren't giving concrete answers on the material issues as they were waiting to see how much they raised first (low funds = resin, lots of cash = plastic).
I hope they re-start the project, plan for a smaller scale, and do everything in resin (similar to WWX).
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Post by: insaniak
 455_PWR wrote:Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but it's amazing that a little negativity can take down a project like this. :( .
I find it equally amazing that people could think that it was negativity that brought this project down, rather than the lack of adequate communication and the apparent absence of a coherent plan on the part of the project creator...
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Post by: basement.dweller
There is no way they will relaunch resin at the same prices. Not happening. They just dodged a bullet.
If they went resin - the scope of the game would be way smaller. I don't believe their end goal is to produce smaller scale collectibles which is what this would equate to. They already have their own niche in that market.
Is it even a question they were going for the mass market appeal? The prices they were shooting for told the same story: Mass production. If they still want that I believe it's highly likely they will rescale the figures, remodel and adjust the troops for HIPS and leave special characters and other less common figures for resin. I don't see anything else making much sense, unless of course they settle for PVC.
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Post by: cincydooley
insaniak wrote: 455_PWR wrote:Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but it's amazing that a little negativity can take down a project like this. :( .
I find it equally amazing that people could think that it was negativity that brought this project down, rather than the lack of adequate communication and the apparent absence of a coherent plan on the part of the project creator...
Pretty much this. But nice try, 455_PWR
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Post by: Vertrucio
Actually, I still do think it was negativity culture still had a large contribution to down this kickstarter, as well as THON.
Gates is another matter, since they didn't have anything at all to show other than a name drop.
THON and FF at least had miniatures, FF had high quality painted ones at that.
There was undoubtedly some serious issues with the game's presentation and lack of some key concrete information, such as an exact numerical scale announcement, pictures of their models next to a ruler, and the materials that were planned.
But if you look back, the same people talking about getting more concrete information were also the same people making up wild conspiracy theories and spreading them in as many replies as they could.
Then they try to hide behind the idea that they only wanted more concrete info. It's like your average conspiracy theorist.
Did this kickstarter deserve to succeed? Probably not. They were foolish to think to launch without such concrete info, especially in the aftermath of several well known kickstarters having production issues. But, what certainly didn't help was all the additional wild theories and random made up info that flooded the inboxes of the kickstarter creators.
But other kickstarters dealt with, and will have to deal with, that type of negativity culture. I'm already planning for dealing with it, and I've already got that concrete info and matching scale that supposedly sparked it off.
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Post by: insaniak
I really don't understand how asking for more information, and questioning strange and evasive answers from the project creator is a sign of a 'negativity culture'.
What potential project starters should take away from this fiasco isn't that people will try to bring them down for no apparent reason... it's that you need to have a coherent plan right from the start if you expect people to hand you their cash, and you need clear, prompt communication.
Having multiple people responding to questions, but each of them only having partial answers and only wandering in when they feel like it is a recipe for disaster, because people wind up feeling like their questions or concerns are being ignored.
Kickstarter organisers need to treat their potential investors as, well, potential investors. Don't expect people to fund your project if you're not prepared to show them that you know what you are doing.
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Post by: cincydooley
 Vertrucio wrote:
But, what certainly didn't help was all the additional wild theories and random made up info that flooded the inboxes of the kickstarter creators.
Please, enlighten us.
What were these "wild theories" and "random [pieces of] made up info?"
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Post by: Vertrucio
Response to insaniak:
You've got to separate those who actually asked for and were reasonable about getting those hard answers, from those who just just piled on to that while also prancing about with all sorts of crazy theories and name calling.
Potential project starters, and humanity in general, are always going to have to deal with people who latch onto insignificant, or justifiably vague ideas and ride them into the ground.
People love looking for things to hate.
Another thing to realize is that, you are not an investor in kickstarter. Part of the reason why kickstarter exists is that the old model of investors generally won't help even the most organized of these kind of projects. So while the best kickstarters are very organized, those are projects that probably would have gotten funded through the old bank loan method anyway, they just wanted more money and to keep a higher percent.
These kind of kickstarter projects are the kind of things that can't get old banking money, and are sometimes vague in areas where only time, experience, and money can discern. Thus all kickstarters have an element of how much you actually trust the people behind it, and how reasonable of a project it is.
Because there have been plenty of very legit looking kickstarters where the creator has either just walked away with the money (see Defiance) or had something happen to make it otherwise deliverable.
I'm not saying that's a good thing, but that is a truth about kickstarters and this perception of being an investor.
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Post by: cincydooley
Vertrucio wrote:
These kind of kickstarter projects are the kind of things that can't get old banking money, and are sometimes vague in areas where only time, experience, and money can discern. Thus all kickstarters have an element of how much you actually trust the people behind it, and how reasonable of a project it is.
.
If you understand this then you should understand the problems people had with this one.
Dishonesty doesn't breed trust.
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Post by: Vertrucio
I understand the problems.
But I can also see the additive effect of negativity culture on top of that.
What you may not realize, not being on the creator side of this argument, is that often times the flood and glut of messaging can be overwhelming and confusing. Even more so if you aren't of the originating language or culture.
Several posters have said they commented or tried to contact Scale Games directly to urge them to post concrete answers. The problem is, on top of the usual flood of messages from doing anything public, you get a glut of the negative culture and conspiracy theorists with just as demanding tones screaming at them for various reasons.
Scale, for example.
It's certainly possible that over in Spain, larger scales are common and whether people buy larger scale games just isn't an issue that comes to mind in the gaming scene. They might regularly buy and paint miniatures of a variety of scales.
We can probably get someone from Spain on these forums to answer that though. But I do know we see a lot of small games out of France and Spain that have scales and proportions different than the accepted 40k norms.
Of course, the cultural differences doesn't absolve them of all problems. The internet exists in this age, and it takes less effort to post the right questions on a foreign miniatures forum than it is to setup a business address in the UK to start a UK kickstarter. This definitely raised red flags, but if you think about it, how the hell else would they have tried to get crowdfunding money to start a game? Or for that matter, would they know from their gaming culture to pose those questions in the first place?
You say, "Dishonesty doesn't breed trust."
Very accusational isn't it? Very negative. That is, effectively, you calling them liars and cheats.
My repeated response is, "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
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Post by: Jehan-reznor
@Vertrucio, People decide with their pledges if a Kickstarter fails, the people have spoken.
It was their wishy washy handling of questions that turned a lot of people off. Hopefully when they restart the Kickstarter, they have everything figured out, and will use an English speaker for their communications
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Post by: insaniak
Vertrucio wrote:Scale, for example.
It's certainly possible that over in Spain, larger scales are common and whether people buy larger scale games just isn't an issue that comes to mind in the gaming scene. They might regularly buy and paint miniatures of a variety of scales.
Wouldn't that just make it even more important for them to make it clear just how big these actually are?
Particularly when the most common question you're getting after 'What are you making them out of?' is 'How big are they?'
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Post by: cincydooley
Negativity culture is nonsense.
But it is pretty much in line with the "Blame Someone Else" culture endemic with the US lately.
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Post by: paulson games
I was quite interested in the game based on the design of the figures and open to using the larger scale, however I was not happy with how they were approaching all the other aspects of the KS which is why I and many others pulled support. It's not being a hater by any means the backwards slide was due to people voicing their concerns with their wallets.
Scale could have addressed those concerns but they chose not to, the result was people didn't feel comfortable with their plan enough to keep money riding on the project. I didn't see it as an extreme out pouring of negativity I saw a lot of people wanting to back the game but rightfully reversed their decision when it was apparent that Scale was not offering a solid enough game plan and their communication was terrible. A KS project lives and dies by how well they convey their ideas to their backers and how open their communication is, in this case it failed as Scale did not connect in a satisfactory manner with their backer and people withdrew their support.
It's not hate, some projects fail because they just don't bring all the elements to the table that people want and respond to. I hope they are able to learn from this and restructure their approach so that they can launch again at a later point as I really like the look of the miniatures.
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Post by: Artemis Black
Vertrucio wrote:
You say, "Dishonesty doesn't breed trust."
Very accusational isn't it? Very negative. That is, effectively, you calling them liars and cheats.
My repeated response is, "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
Are you suggesting that a mininature company filled with artists and painters don't know how to use a ruler to measure a miniature?
"35mm scale" was what they started with. Then "35mm to the eyes" was, and continued to be until the end of the KS, their claim. Yet their own photograph shows the eyes of the shortest miniature they have shown to be above the head of a 37mm terminator. Other evidence like using the 25mm bases to gauge height showed the same. Their miniatures were 40mm and over, much over in some cases.
You're going to explain that by stupidity? That they are literally too stupid to measure a miniature? Or that they accidentally typed 35 instead of 40 and despite it coming up again and again couldn't work out how to change it or something?
Occams razor suggests that it's considerably more likely they know the size of their own miniatures and were simply lying. Why they were lying about it up for grabs but seeing as the majority of wargamers use a 'close to 35mm' scale already one wouldn't be too out of line by guessing it was to garner more interest. Also presenting them as smaller makes them look better, nobody is as impressed by a mini having crazy detail when it's 60mm tall, claim it's in the same scale as Warmachine or Infinity and suddenly it's 'amazing'.
They certainly never corrected a single person claiming their minis were smaller than they actually were. They were asked repeatedly, they read this forum and more importantly, they're not mentally slowed. They knew the size of their own mniatures and they misrepresented them.
Trust is important to a kickstarter. Rule #1, don't get caught lying.
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Post by: Piston Honda
It seems to me that the people most vocal in regards to questioning SG were the ones who really wanted a solid product delivered, and not to torpedo this project.
Much of the questions and uncertainty was born from other projects. Is it fair to relate the final product of one company with the unfinished product of another company? no.
But that is the purpose of the kickstarter chat section. communication.
Scale Games failed at that miserably.
The premade fanboys were of no help for scale games either. They were like attack dogs.
May Scale Games be clear and the fanboys subtle.
40524
Post by: 455_PWR
"nice try, 455_PWR"
See, this is why I have few posts over all the years I have been a member here; making jabs at people is just immature. I don't just add quick posts, I usually think and try to add a thoughtful post to a conversation. I also didn't try anything, I succeeded and here's how... I read other's posts, typed my opinion on the matter without making jabs at anyone, and pressed enter (so the post appeared here) . I'm not going to lose sleep if you don't agree with me lol.
I really do think that negativity had a part to play here (maybe it wasn't the sole factor, but it was part to blame). It's the same attitudes that harmed Sedition Wars after they made mistakes (I know, that's a huge story in and of itself...) and other projects. The Kickstarter also had not failed, it had just backslid a bit (they should have stuck it out and waitied to see what happened before they yanked it themselves). They actually had raised a good sum of cash with days to go, and may have reached their goal as many people pledge during the last day of KS campaigns. I really don't believe the company was being deceitful or intentionally dishonest here, I think they really didn't know what they were going to use (waiting to see how much $ they'd raise) and therefore didn't give straight answers. Yes they made some mistakes - Ignorance, being ill-prepared, or being in-experienced is a bad thing - but it's not the same thing as being intentionally misleading/dishonest.
I think the campaign could succeed if they lowered their price point a bit, stuck with resin, kept the models at their slightly larger scale (perfect for collectors/painters), had more stuff as add ons, and had less pledge amounts (1 for add ons, 1 for the base game + goals, and 1 for the base game and 2 more faction starters + goals).
I guess we shall see if they try to reboot or where this game goes from here!
1478
Post by: warboss
Agamemnon2 wrote:I'm guessing this campaign joins Thon and Gates of Antares in obscurity. Both of those promised they'd be back stronger than ever, and neither ever did, after all. GoA is the Could-Have-Been-King of miniatures wargaming, and this looks like a fine addition to its menagerie of Never-Weres.
Thon has actually been slowly but steadily progressing if you choose to actually look. Has it actually come out in the time since? No... nor has it re-kickstarted either but apparently it has gone into beta testing. New renders, old figs now in metal, new units, etc.
http://www.thonthegame.com/
I had enough doubts (and expressed them loudly to no avail unfortunately) during the crowdfunding that I didn't join the beta or join their newsletter but I do pop into that website every few months to check out what is new and there always is something. It may be glacial but it is moving forward.
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Post by: Piston Honda
I miss thon, it had that epic space opera feel to it.
such beauty.
1478
Post by: warboss
It did feel alot fresher than other recent "new" games including the ubiquitous reboots. I realize that it borrowed heavily from general scifi and mass effect in particular for style but I liked the underlying look and feel of the game which is why it was so frustrating that the creator couldn't see that there was an issue with the price and scale.
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Post by: Piston Honda
scale of the game size or scale of the minis?
I remember some odd process he had, he 3D printed minis at a rather large scale, showed them off and said they would be resized for production. Or something to that effect. It's was quite odd.
It is nice to see he now has such a huge following on facebook. 18k plus potential customers.
If done right, I mean really really right, he could have a huge KS, is he chooses to go the route again.
Was/Is Thon going to be a "multiple squad game" like 40k or more like Infinity/Malifaux with just a handful of figures.
Seeing as there are vehicles I'm assuming similar to the size of 40k.
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Post by: Conrad Turner
I've been following this thread, and the KS, for quite a while now.
I never actually backed, although I was tempted once they were forced, almost at gunpoint it seemed, to specify a material.
Now I realise that I would have been a minority backer for this as I don't play games with this sort of figure, not 40K, Infinity, or anything. But I do collect and paint miniatures. And the designs were interesting, I would have loved a small set, preferably a few characters and a single basic troop from a couple of the factions -maybe even all of them.
As I don't game, I had no worries over what scale the actual figures were, but the fact that Scale didn't seem to know what scale they were was a concern, as was the initial confusion over material. I have no terrain for them not to match with, nor do I intend to use them in a game of a different scale - unless I had bought in on enough models to actually make a chess set, and again, I could make the size of that board fit the size of the minis, so no problem there.
Unfortunately, the dithering exhibited by Scale, not changing the main information, etc. has put me off. I did not actually pledge, mainly because as I was going to, the project went into decline and ended up unfunding and eventually being cancelled.
whether I pledge if it re-launches will depend on how well they prove that they have learned from this experience. If they come out and say "It will be made of this material, of this scale. You will be able to pledge for these things, and we have these stretch goals." I will be much more likely to join in and pledge - even if I don't particularly like the material or scale. I can paint well enough that I can enhance soft detail or add it in from scratch if necessary, and as I have already said, odd scales don't bother me. But there is a point for people to consider. People have said that larger minis are easier to paint, and that is not necessarily true. With larger areas to cover, better detail moulded in, they can be harder to paint well. I have seen some attempts to paint Space Marines that look good on a "28mm Heroic" scale that will not translate well to Inquisitor scale. Ok, Tabletop standard or '3 colour minimum' would be relatively easy to do, but larger minis mean more work as a modeller to get looking like they are something special. Again, something that may or may not come into your decision.
But I also understand that I am not their target demographic, and if what I want is not in their KS, then it won't be a great loss to them - except that all I want is good looking minis and clear communication, which I believe every backer wants.
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Post by: PsychoticStorm
While their communication was not good, the overall negativity this got especially from members for the community who can are part of the industry pushed it from something that could be salvaged to something destined to fail.
People want to rally to something and kickstarter has an inherit fear in it, so they will rally to somebody they feel is important if he is in their minds important and people who are known to have their own companies or be part of one are by default someone to rally.
Personally I did not like the industry's negativity on this project, far more than on projects it should have been like the hardsuits for example, if they wanted to help and there is no indication they didn't they should have done it more on the backstage, I don't say they didn't, I say what they did on frontstage was way to visible.
As far as the project goes, its a valid project, scale is not as important as some people make it to be if it is intended to be its own thing, design is nice enough (although something must be said for Ares boobplates...), communication and clarity needs to be well addressed and lessons from here learned, yes even the "negativity" of the industry I ranted above is valid and should be taken into account too, I am ranting on the way it was expressed, not what it was said.
I feel their format is wrong, they do not need a boxed set and terrain is too much of a drain to have, they should stick to Starter+ rulebook, then add ons and leave terrain to others who specialize for it.
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Post by: zedmeister
Thing is with blaming the negativity is it clouds over the real reason people were voicing concerns - caution.
It's been about two years since gaming Kickstarters really took off with Zombiecide starting the trend. Since then we've had many fly through News and Rumours and not all of them have ended well. Some of the bigger kickstarters have had no end of problems. We've had Sedition Wars and Relic Knights with the well documented problems with PVC. Mantic and their ever changing concept to sculpt process not to mention more PVC shenanigans. (Such is the frustration with PVC, we've seen The Restic Knigths being formed!) Raging Heroes and their laughable attitude to backers. The ongoing sagas with Robotech and Deliverence games. The Through the Breach debacle. And those are just the ones that spring to my mind. So, after all that, after the mountains of malformed PVC, the out of scale models, the undelivered Kickstarters can you blame people being more cautious and rightly questioning what companies intend to do with their money?
Instead of the "Ooo shiny" effect of the early Kickstarters, piling in with £££ and then receiving a product that didn't meet their expectations of what was promised, people are now being more discerning and looking in detail at what is on offer. They're asking things like what material, what scale, who's sculpting, who's involved. In effect, acting like investors and not magpies.
This behaviour isn't Scale75's fault. However, I think we're perhaps seeing the first signs of a period of Kickstarter maturity. More and more the successful Kickstarters are the ones that have their plans organised, questions answered and an idea that is developed enough to appeal to the average gamer. The days of just stick it out there and people will back are ending.
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Post by: Alpharius
IF Scale Games had said, from the outset, clearly, that this was a 40mm scale game, and that at £90K funding they would be resin miniatures and if they got to £130K funding they would be in HIPs, then NONE of this would have happened.
The campaign would still be active, and if it wasn't at £90K yet, it would be close, and climbing still.
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Post by: Conrad Turner
Alph, IF they'd said that at the outset, they'd probably be around the £130K.
Don't forget, they got over £90K even with the confusion and controversy. If the'y not had that, they could well have gone much higher. And as they closed on the £130K, interest would have increased as more people thought of cheap HIPS figures.
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Post by: Alpharius
Yeah, that's probably true!
And all of this crumbled due to a convuluted start and a confusing message/front page/etc.
But hopefully lessons learned and all that, and they come back with a better, more focused launch of 'Fallen Frontiers" - I'm looking forward to it!
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Post by: Agamemnon2
I think we will be waiting for a while now. Besides, their previous campaign is about 3½ months late by their own admission, so their ability to actually produce anything is in doubt.
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Post by: cincydooley
 zedmeister wrote:Thing is with blaming the negativity is it clouds over the real reason people were voicing concerns - caution.
It's been about two years since gaming Kickstarters really took off with Zombiecide starting the trend. Since then we've had many fly through News and Rumours and not all of them have ended well. Some of the bigger kickstarters have had no end of problems. We've had Sedition Wars and Relic Knights with the well documented problems with PVC. Mantic and their ever changing concept to sculpt process not to mention more PVC shenanigans. (Such is the frustration with PVC, we've seen The Restic Knigths being formed!) Raging Heroes and their laughable attitude to backers. The ongoing sagas with Robotech and Deliverence games. The Through the Breach debacle. And those are just the ones that spring to my mind. So, after all that, after the mountains of malformed PVC, the out of scale models, the undelivered Kickstarters can you blame people being more cautious and rightly questioning what companies intend to do with their money?
Instead of the "Ooo shiny" effect of the early Kickstarters, piling in with £££ and then receiving a product that didn't meet their expectations of what was promised, people are now being more discerning and looking in detail at what is on offer. They're asking things like what material, what scale, who's sculpting, who's involved. In effect, acting like investors and not magpies.
This behaviour isn't Scale75's fault. However, I think we're perhaps seeing the first signs of a period of Kickstarter maturity. More and more the successful Kickstarters are the ones that have their plans organised, questions answered and an idea that is developed enough to appeal to the average gamer. The days of just stick it out there and people will back are ending.
Perfectly said.
I'm sure I fall into the... whats the phrasing we're using here? Oh yes. I'm sure I fall into the "culture of negativity" in the eyes of some folks, but really all it is is a desire to be informed, and a desire for the company to whom I'm going to give a free loan to earn my trust.
Scale Games didn't satiate either of my desires very well.
They were obtuse and skirted around both scale and material for far longer than they should have. If that doesn't indicate duplicity (and I don't think it does here) then it means something worse: ill-preparedness and ignorance. There's a lot to be said about a project being run by someone that knows how to run a project. Whether or not that's based on previous KS experience (we've seen this with CMoN and with SDE: Forgotten King, Soda Pop) or having someone that actually is a project manager as their 'other profession,' it makes a huge difference. And for those people that don't have that experience, like Scale...well there is a GLUT of completed and unfunded projects from which to base your project. I mean hell, Guillotine is in Spain, like Scale75. Make a call. Ask for advice. I can't imagine the gaming community in Spain is SOOOO large that some of these people dont run in the same circles.
Then, look at the fact that their previous KS, Duel Fighters, is late (and will be, at minimum, 4 months late) with only 175 backers, and I don't think the question of whether or not they could actually produce resin in this volume is unreasonable. And that just got pushed to the side. I don't know how people could so cavalierly ignore that. To me, it was sort of a big indicator for me of their efficacy to complete the project in a timely manner.
They gave us plenty of reasons to distrust them and the project itself.
Blaming it on "negativity culture" is a huge cop out.
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Post by: Wehrkind
Thinking about it for a few days, from an economics stand point "negativity culture" is really the baseline. We don't spend money on most things we could buy, less than 1% certainly. The fact that Kickstarter works at all, with relatively unknown people asking for money up front to start a project whose planning and execution are unknowable, in exchange for a product you can't see now and won't see for months at best, without any sort of contract enforcing compliance on the part of the people running things, that is amazing. That doesn't generally happen, and the amount of successful KS campaigns that exist is a testament to how fantastically optimistic and positive people in the gaming community are towards those who are starting new things. (One could also argue it is a testament to how much money we are willing to piss down a potential rat hole, but there is enough established stuff on store shelves to spend money on that it can't be the main answer.)
Let's face it, most miniatures KS are run as a pre-order system, and despite the obvious fact that it isn't at all, we all put money into it. That shows a remarkable amount trust and positive thinking on our part. That we have become more discerning over time, not trusting money to people with vague and seemingly poorly run projects is not even a return to the base line, more of a "maybe we should stop going into strangers' panel vans, no matter how much candy is supposed to be inside." How often do you drop 100$s of dollars of cash on a product without at least reading a review or two, seeing it in person, or at least knowing it comes from a manufacturer you have dealt with in the past and trust? I can't think of many things outside of KickStarters where that happens.
If anything the community has a strong "positivity culture" still. A really shocking one in context of how we deal with just about any other group.
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Post by: Artemis Black
I agree with a lot of the above few posts, and I'd like to add one more to the list. Some of us in the industry have started realising that it's in 'our' best interests to start holding kickstarters to a higher standard and to look out for consumers in general not just our own direct customers.
Every kickstarter failure makes the platform look bad and lots of us plan on using it. Every backer who feels screwed is one more backer who may not back our upcoming project.
And please note this has nothing to do with jealousy or competition, I am talking 'any' gaming kickstarter whether or not it's relevant to anything we sell.
And read between the lines, because it also means we 'want' other gaming kickstarters to do well. Every good game helps us as an industry, it helps draw new players into gaming or old players back, it helps expand the money in the hobby and keep gaming stores afloat etc. We all need that.
We don't all sit around hoping failure on our competition, this industry is too small for that in the gand scheme of things.
A second point that this kickstarter in particular brought up is a level playing field. Companies in the boutique end of the market are judged on their products quality, and you 'need' to know the size of a mini to judge it properly. You just can't compare a 54mm mini to a 30mm mini based on what they look like, you 'have' to take their size into account. It is simply physically easier to make better looking models the larger they get.
So when a company lies about the size of their minis to make them smaler they are removing that level playing field. That's not on.
The best result from this kickstarter, from a business point of view, for me personally would have been an honest, well thought out, well sold, well designed 40mm sci-fi game that took off and sold well. Anyone who thinks otherwise is both wrong and woefully ignorant of business.
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Post by: Albino Squirrel
I think one or two industry "professionals" really embarrassed themselves with their unnecessarily vitriolic attacks on this Kickstarter project.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Aside from that, I think the biggest culprit was probably the language barrier. The broken English made it somewhat difficult for people to be sure exactly what Scale Games had intended to say in many cases.
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Post by: Artemis Black
Albino Squirrel wrote:I think one or two industry "professionals" really embarrassed themselves with their unnecessarily vitriolic attacks on this Kickstarter project.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Aside from that, I think the biggest culprit was probably the language barrier. The broken English made it somewhat difficult for people to be sure exactly what Scale Games had intended to say in many cases.
Pretty certain 35 means the same in Spanish when written in numbers.
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Post by: Yonan
Albino Squirrel wrote:I think one or two industry "professionals" really embarrassed themselves with their unnecessarily vitriolic attacks on this Kickstarter project.
Do you have any examples of this you can quote?
73319
Post by: Sirio
It's up to the customers to decide whether a company should be punished or not for badly performing in a KS. Imo it should, since it shows lack of respect. If you aren't sure you are up to the task, do not ask for people's money, it's as simple as that.
Personally I've backed 6 projects, 2 of which failed me horribly (one in Spain and one in England, the Spanish one is not Scale-75). I made an oath to myself never to buy or back any crowd-funding campaigns ( KS, Indiegogo etc) from these companies ever again. It's a good thing when faith and enthusiasm is handed over, since great things can be accomplished when more and more people work together. The more professionals there are the better for us consumers. As long as they are professionals.
Honestly I find that Scale Games/Scale-75 did well to cancel the campaign at this point (I also hope they are reading this *wave* ). They paid the fact people have become more responsible towards KS creators (me included). They should finish their first KS they have to prove their 175 backers right and form a wider customer base, then go re-sculpt these beautiful minis in 28mm scale, re-paint them, have an Englishman deal with comments etc etc (all of the things mentioned above) and then re-launch. I'm sure this will take some 3-6 months, but that's how things should go if they want to succeed. And I want them to succeed, after all, why not? 
42144
Post by: cincydooley
Albino Squirrel wrote:I think one or two industry "professionals" really embarrassed themselves with their unnecessarily vitriolic attacks on this Kickstarter project.
.
Citations, please.
84843
Post by: Pilgrim_uk
As others have said the honeymoon period is over for Kickstarters. If you are going to bring something to the table you better make sure you have dotted the I's and crossed the T's.
The campaign is over anybody who feels they must attack those who had an opinion during the campaign should get a grip. I'm a big fan of scale games but they did not help themselves if you don't see this then you are kidding yourself on.
Who does it benefit now keeping the comments going if all you are going to do is attack people in the social media certainly not scale games. If you want to help scale games get involved in the FF forums. If you are not going to help them why get involved.
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Post by: cincydooley
Pilgrim_uk wrote: If you want to help scale games get involved in the FF forums. If you are not going to help them why get involved.
Well, the Falling Frontiers forum is almost entirely Spanish, so that won't help most folks here.
Plus, Scale75 made it pretty clear they had people reading Dakka.
I think a discourse about the shortcomings of this project, especially in regards to this mythical "negativity culture" that some folks want to blame the failure on, is important.
3806
Post by: Grot 6
zedmeister wrote:Thing is with blaming the negativity is it clouds over the real reason people were voicing concerns - caution.
It's been about two years since gaming Kickstarters really took off with Zombiecide starting the trend. Since then we've had many fly through News and Rumours and not all of them have ended well. Some of the bigger kickstarters have had no end of problems. We've had Sedition Wars and Relic Knights with the well documented problems with PVC. Mantic and their ever changing concept to sculpt process not to mention more PVC shenanigans. (Such is the frustration with PVC, we've seen The Restic Knigths being formed!) Raging Heroes and their laughable attitude to backers. The ongoing sagas with Robotech and Deliverence games. The Through the Breach debacle. And those are just the ones that spring to my mind. So, after all that, after the mountains of malformed PVC, the out of scale models, the undelivered Kickstarters can you blame people being more cautious and rightly questioning what companies intend to do with their money?
Instead of the "Ooo shiny" effect of the early Kickstarters, piling in with £££ and then receiving a product that didn't meet their expectations of what was promised, people are now being more discerning and looking in detail at what is on offer. They're asking things like what material, what scale, who's sculpting, who's involved. In effect, acting like investors and not magpies.
This behaviour isn't Scale75's fault. However, I think we're perhaps seeing the first signs of a period of Kickstarter maturity. More and more the successful Kickstarters are the ones that have their plans organised, questions answered and an idea that is developed enough to appeal to the average gamer. The days of just stick it out there and people will back are ending.
Yes and no.
Kickstarter is crap at the end of the day.
A "project" that morphs as the time goes by, the Project manager has no obligation after they receive money, as has been shown more then should be reasonably acceptable by this way of funding, and MOST miniatures projects are experiencing no end of problems because they get wrapped up in their own hype and think they can deliver everything and the moon with a cherry on top.
People can put the blame on negativity, but at the end of the day these projects are victims of their own success. Yeah, some might have good projects, but the dogs in the woods are cutting into your general security when they consistently put up a wiz-bang humdinger project, and then DON'T deliver or give excuse after excuse as to why they cannot finish it.
I'm down with just a straight up game. You put up a project, the figures get made, no excuse, and then we have some fun developing more to evolve the setting. This crap about "Oh I have EVERYTHING and the kitchen sink already DONE, so gives me monies!!!" is laughable, especially when we're seeing someone working it out of their garage, or back room workshop.
THIS KS feels just that way. They might have a good game, but they painted themselves into a corner when they promise a gak load of stuff with no past experience's AT making a game with figures.
A lot of these projects SHOULD be just no questions, I get some funding, and then I make some cash as I put out a great product- NOT I make the product with the lowest common denominator material while I walk off into the sunset with half a million bucks like Sedition wars did, and others who think they are "Game designers" just because they put out a couple of figures and some half written rules sets.
I'm just genuinely burned out on Kickstarter projects that have really just disappointed me with their end state. Longer they take, the longer they finish up with giving me a real feeling of getting gaked on and then I'm supposed to be happy about it.
This is just one players opinion. I'm not pointing the finger at any one game/ game system.
84843
Post by: Pilgrim_uk
Well, the Falling Frontiers forum is almost entirely Spanish, so that won't help most folks here.
Not the last time I checked it was mostly english, have you been there? And if spanish people do comment they have an english version below it.
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Post by: Jehan-reznor
Albino Squirrel wrote:I think one or two industry "professionals" really embarrassed themselves with their unnecessarily vitriolic attacks on this Kickstarter project.
Interesting how critique has somehow become to mean attack in the current culture.
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Post by: Alpharius
Good news!
SCALE GAMES 5 days ago
We are studying several options. KS and Indiegogo are the crowdfunding options, but there are other options as auto-crowdfunding, or the traditional bank loan...but what it´s sure is that Fallen Frontiers wiil be launched.
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Post by: Dentry
What is auto-crowdfunding?
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Post by: Alpharius
Maybe...raising the funds themselves on their own website?
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Post by: cincydooley
I won't back it again if it goes IndieGoGo.
I think that would be a terrible decision on their part.
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Post by: Alpharius
Same here - that not a platform I'm at all interested in using...
63356
Post by: Dentry
Kickstarter would be the most exciting way to go for potential customers. Their presentation wasn't bad. If they can improve on it and stay away from any pitfalls, they should have no trouble funding the endeavor.
How'd their other KS turn out? Looks like it's still outstanding, but I haven't followed it at all.
85824
Post by: Malkaven
They canceled their last KS.
73319
Post by: Sirio
I believe he's talking about this. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/986826251/duel-fighters?play=video_pitch&ref=users
They got funded but still not delivered. Think they informed their backers however (something like a 3-month delay).
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Post by: Alpharius
Denny Crane wrote:
3 days ago
I was hoping that they surprise us with some news on the world Expo in Stresa this weekend.... Would be really happy to see a lifesign.
I dont expect a fix Kickstarter restart date or so, but such a long silence without any news after the canceling is quite surprisng
Creator SCALE GAMES wrote:
about 11 hours ago
We thought that Stressa is not a good place to make FF demos. We put some figures to show the size and quality.
Some members of the team continue hard working to relaunch the game.
There is no doubt that the game wil be launched soon or later.
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Post by: Kilkrazy
cincydooley wrote:I won't back it again if it goes IndieGoGo.
I think that would be a terrible decision on their part.
Why on Earth?
I've backed two projects on Indiegogo. They have worked out a lot better than the projects I backed on Kickstarter.
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Post by: Alpharius
There are the 'usual' list of complaints about IndieGoGo:
1) They take your money right away, and it is a lot harder to 'cancel' and get your money back if you change your mind and/or your financial situation changes.
2) The Dreaded "Flexible Funding" campaign.
I'm not a fan of IndieGoGo, and probably won't back something there either.
72912
Post by: edlowe
Alpharius wrote:There are the 'usual' list of complaints about IndieGoGo:
1) They take your money right away, and it is a lot harder to 'cancel' and get your money back if you change your mind and/or your financial situation changes.
2) The Dreaded "Flexible Funding" campaign.
I'm not a fan of IndieGoGo, and probably won't back something there either.
Exactly why I wont use it, for all its faults ks is a lot more flexible. Plus you don't have to worry so much about changes that happen near the end of the campaign, just a quick click and your moneys safe.
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Post by: Alpharius
Miniatures In Color 4 days ago
Hello everyone.. if you are in the USA and are attending GENCON, be sure to look for myself and Elias from Scale Games, we will be attending GENCON and have stuff to show off.
We should be wearing FALLEN FRONTIER tee-shirts, and hanging out in the non historical miniatures room, if not any free table space we can find we will be at and I will try and post here where we are located during the con.. as well as on my PLOG.
Anyone going to Gencon?
Please check them out, and let us know what's what!
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Post by: Dark Severance
Alpharius wrote:Anyone going to Gencon?
Please check them out, and let us know what's what!
I will definitely be at GenCon.
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Post by: Theophony
Alpharius wrote:
Miniatures In Color 4 days ago
Hello everyone.. if you are in the USA and are attending GENCON, be sure to look for myself and Elias from Scale Games, we will be attending GENCON and have stuff to show off.
We should be wearing FALLEN FRONTIER tee-shirts, and hanging out in the non historical miniatures room, if not any free table space we can find we will be at and I will try and post here where we are located during the con.. as well as on my PLOG.
Anyone going to Gencon?
Please check them out, and let us know what's what!
Also take a tape measure and get accurate shots.....of the models not the developers  (I actually feel it necessary to point that out with this group).
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Post by: vegeta365
So, we're they at Gen Con?
Did anyone take pics, discuss materials and their plans for getting this released?
Any more rules updates?
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Post by: Alpharius
Indeed there is!
From Miniatures In Color, a rather... passionate fan during the Kickstarter:
http://miniaturesincolor.wordpress.com/2014/07/17/fallen-frontiers-gencon-2014/
FALLEN FRONTIERS & GENCON 2014
July 17, 2014
Greetings readers.
I will be representing Scale Games and their new game FALLEN FRONTIERS at Gen Con. I will have examples of the miniatures you will get in your pledges the material they are using as well as the fine detail you can expect to see when you receive your pledge. Depending on the go ahead from the project manager I maybe even be able to inform you on the details on when and where the new launching of the game will take place. Much is being discussed, and done in the back ground, and I know the silence is deafening, but everyone is hard at work getting stuff worked out, adjusted, fixed, and primed for the relaunch. Show casing these models at GENCON is one step to help build consumer confidence and to really give everyone an opportunity to see the high quality and detail these miniatures will be. The material has been settled and what I will be showing off at GENCON will be the final material you will receive. I have been asked how did they produce these miniatures… As I was not there at the time, I cant honestly answer that question, I can however guess with some limited background and info I know about the company. Scale Games being a part of Scale75, would mean that A: it was done in house as I know they have some in house production products, or B: have a contract with whom ever produces Scale75 75mm miniatures already.
I will have on hand not only the finely studio painted miniatures, but bare material ones as well, so you can see it is not all in the paint job, but rather these miniatures are in fact really cool on their own, and who knows I maybe even giving a few of these unpainted models away.
There is an event planned for Saturday at 1pm in the NON-Historical Miniatures area. I have submitted it and am now waiting for it to post. It is Scale Games FALLEN FRONTIERS.. so keep an eye out for it.
I look forward to meeting you and telling you more about this great game and outstanding miniatures from Scale Games.
Here is a Preview of one of the models I will have on hand in all 3 stages.
I'm not sure if the miniature material details and such were discussed at Gencon, but from the report below, who knows?
http://miniaturesincolor.wordpress.com/2014/08/24/gencon-after-action-report/
GENCON – After Action Report
August 24, 2014
Hello Readers,
My apologies for not posting during GENCON, first I have to admit I was a bit overwhelmed, and second I honestly had no time, when I thought I did, I had no internet. When I got back to the hotel, I just fell down and passed out… and after maybe 4 or 5 hours was up and at it again. I have to buy new shoes, I swear I wore the tread right off of these.
GENCON is amazing, there is something about this convention that is like no other. There is an attitude of friendliness and welcoming by everyone you meet. The City of Indianapolis is also fantastic, they treat you as if you are special and are wanted there, no one had a negative thing to say about two-hundred-thousand plus gamer’s invading their city. I had a great time.. and now that I have had some time to recoup I am ready to share some FALLEN FRONTIER news with you.
We set up in the miniature hall both Friday and Saturday in the Yellow Section (Yellow 35/36), not too far from the BIG RED Shirt. If you were there you know what I am talking about. We got a chance to meet a few interested people and show them the game as well as the miniatures, terrain and game mat. Sunday was the day of Shopping and relaxing some, as we were winding down and exhausted from the three days prior. Thursday was the get acquainted, figure stuff out, and explore day.
I left flyers on our tables and here and there in hopes of getting the word out, I saw on the old KS page that someone found one… so I guess it worked to some extent. But that is not what you want to hear, you want to know about the game and when it will be relaunched and where…
Well, this Autumn sometime in October is our goal and what we are shooting for, but there are a few things to work out prior, and we are hard at work getting them done. I want to be clear that we have a target, but as nothing is ever certain I cant nail it down to a day yet, but think of it this way you have all of September to save up and prepare for the reboot! As for where that is still a subject of debate, we have it down to two options back to Kickstarter, or on IndieGoGo. As the date approaches I will be sure to inform you where and when precisely it will be. Please comment and share where you would like it to be rebooted and why.
On my Fallen Frontiers Support Group on Facebook, I have added a bunch of pictures, and how the game plays as well as some sample cards, I will try to get that info over here as well… I understand some people don’t like or want to be part of facebook, and that’s fine, I can use my blog as another source to inform you.
Here are a few photos of Fallen Frontiers at GENCON. ( Friday Green tables 15/16 )
Here are a couple pictures of card samples.
Here are some pictures of Saturday ( Yellow Tables 35/36 )
And here is some pictures of the character cards.
More coming soon.. so stay tuned!
I really wanted this one to succeed, so here's to hoping they come back with a clear, concise Kickstarter that is as successful as they need it to be, and as successful as it can be - I'll be there!
If it is on IndieNoGo though?
Well...
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Post by: Dentry
Nice find. The models look good and are photographed well.
Haven't read anything about this recently. September seems a good time for it, before the holiday madness. But it'll be DOA for me if they do Indiegogo.
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Post by: Sirio
I can't see a reason for which they should do Indiegogo, I doubt they would have much success there. They already gathered people in their KS, why in the world should they lose that crowd?
If they have fixed their issues and have found someone who speaks better english, they should do better than last time. I'll keep on watching this.
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Post by: Riquende
I hope this doesn't end up being their scale shot.
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Post by: zedmeister
Hmmm, still no detail on scale and material that they'll be using.
I really like the look of this and will take a punt in the next ks. Just hope it doesn't clash with Darklands KS3
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Post by: Alpharius
Alpharius about 11 hours ago
Interesting stuff!
So, a couple of questions!
1) What was the final material that was chosen and were there unpainted miniatures on hand?
2) Is HIPs still a possible stretch goal?
3) Please - no IndieGoGo!
MiC - thanks for the write up, and I'm looking forward to more!
And I'm looking forward to Fallen Frontiers re-launching...somewhere!
Creator SCALE GAMES about 5 hours ago
Hi Alpharius.
1.-The material will be PU resin or a combination of PU resin+metal.
2.-Yes, it is possible. It will depends on the result of the campaign as we explained before cancel.
3.-We must to study the way to relaunch. After discussing with several companies dedicated to help with Crowdfunding campaigns, the conclusion is that KS is not really a crowdfunding platform for most of backers. It is more like a pre-sale platform. It can be KS or not...
What's "PU Resin" again?
And comment #3 is...odd.
Sure, some people use KS as a 'pre-order', but it isn't only about that. KS is a crowdfunding platform, and easily the most widely accessible/popular one out there.
Not sure where they're going with this one, but I'm certainly interested to follow along - for now!
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Post by: Bolognesus
PU Resin is polyurethane resin - that would be FW/Mierce like (although I believe a lot depends on casting methods as well; I think Prodos uses a PU compound as well but more or less spincasts it, for their warzone and AvP lines?)
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Post by: Alpharius
Ah, good then!
"PU Resin" is 'real' resin!
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Post by: Bolognesus
Yes. Again though, the difference 'good' and 'bad' casting can make is huge - don't get your hopes up yet.
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Post by: Dark Severance
Alpharius wrote:3.-We must to study the way to relaunch. After discussing with several companies dedicated to help with Crowdfunding campaigns, the conclusion is that KS is not really a crowdfunding platform for most of backers. It is more like a pre-sale platform. It can be KS or not..
And comment #3 is...odd.
They are believing the hype. There are a lot of websites that when you compare crowdfunding, that flat out state Kickstarter isn't what it was before and there are other better Crowdfunding websites. For some projects this is valid but for gaming it does not. If you compare games on IndieGoGo vs Kickstarter they are vastly different not only in spectrum and details but also in the amount of funds they generate. I believe they are of the impression (this may be a language barrier thing again) that it is pre-sale platform because of companies like Japanime Games, Mantic, CMoN, etc that do seem to use it as that. However to not make the Kickstarter choice would still be the wrong choice. The majority of people trust Kickstarter slightly more than other programs. It isn't like it was 2 years ago but that isn't because its a pre-sale platform, it is because backers have more questions and are more aware now. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be used. Unless they have extra crowd funding backers from another source, any other option would be a mistake for them.
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Post by: Yonan
Not sure about the others, but Mantic doesn't use KS as pre orders - they do it to raise funding to develop new product lines, exactly what kickstarter is for. It seems as though there is a lot of misinformation on the topic.
If there's a movement away from kickstarter it should be for the right reasons, such as to platforms that don't take as large a cut.
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Post by: weeble1000
 Dark Severance wrote: Alpharius wrote:3.-We must to study the way to relaunch. After discussing with several companies dedicated to help with Crowdfunding campaigns, the conclusion is that KS is not really a crowdfunding platform for most of backers. It is more like a pre-sale platform. It can be KS or not.. And comment #3 is...odd.
They are believing the hype. There are a lot of websites that when you compare crowdfunding, that flat out state Kickstarter isn't what it was before and there are other better Crowdfunding websites. For some projects this is valid but for gaming it does not. If you compare games on IndieGoGo vs Kickstarter they are vastly different not only in spectrum and details but also in the amount of funds they generate. I believe they are of the impression (this may be a language barrier thing again) that it is pre-sale platform because of companies like Japanime Games, Mantic, CMoN, etc that do seem to use it as that. However to not make the Kickstarter choice would still be the wrong choice. The majority of people trust Kickstarter slightly more than other programs. It isn't like it was 2 years ago but that isn't because its a pre-sale platform, it is because backers have more questions and are more aware now. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be used. Unless they have extra crowd funding backers from another source, any other option would be a mistake for them.
If it is an issue of KS or another crowdfunding platform, you might as well use KS. But otherwise I agree about KS. It is terribly difficult to go into KS nowadays, and the risks are pretty steep. It is really easy to make a misstep and lose your shirt even if the campaign is "successful." Almost everyone I have talked to who has run a successful KS campaign in the TTG industry regrets doing it, considered it a necessary evil, or did not consider the experience to have been an overall positive one. KS is a crowdfunding platform, but it isn't what is was 2 years ago. 2 years ago you could come to KS with an idea and a smile. Nowadays in order to compete you've got to come with a finished, pre-production product, a marketing budget, a crowdfunding consultant, and two weeks of 16 hour work days to put in. When it comes to table top games, KS is great if you want to market the crap out of your product in the hope of raising a couple hundred thousand dollars, but to do that you've got to sink in so much money and time on the front end that your risk is pretty darn significant. KS is also great for running a modest campaign in the hopes of pre-selling a very specific product (usually from an established company) to help pay for a production run. With certain exceptions, KS is not the place where a startup TTG company can come with a few thousand dollars in hand and raise the capital to kickstart a business. By and large, the products you see being sold via Kickstarter are not the products you see being sold outside of a Kickstarter context, and that should tell you something. Lots of people feel that they need to go to Kickstarter, because that is where the action is. And that's true to an extent. There are a lot of customers that you will reach via Kickstarter that you won't easily reach any other way. But the customers you reach via Kickstarter come with a certain set of expectations. Trying to meet those expectations is what lands folks in trouble. This is one reason why small, but established companies can do okay with limited KS campaigns. Mecha Front is a great example (to put Jon on the spot). You already have a nice, tight customer base, and those folks get your campaign started off on the right foot and probably form the bulk (or a significant proportion of) your KS backers. This makes KS a bit safer, although you still run the risk of getting caught up in your own schill and making a mis-calculation trying to draw in a larger customer base.
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Post by: Dark Severance
Yonan wrote:Not sure about the others, but Mantic doesn't use KS as pre orders - they do it to raise funding to develop new product lines, exactly what kickstarter is for. It seems as though there is a lot of misinformation on the topic.
I didn't say they do, I said that is the impression to a good amount of people. They are established companies that really don't need to seek crowdfunding to develop the product lines, they are fairly well developed by the time they go to Kickstarter. They say they use it as a means to generate funding for the initial tooling and a customer base. The impression it leaves is that they could of created the product line without Kickstarter because of funding generated from other products though. It isn't pre-orders in the traditional sense but it is a new type creature. Honestly from a business perspective it is a smart move. If the Kickstarter fails, you don't lose funds that were directed to tooling of a project you just have the sunk costs of the initial design and prototypes. If it succeeds, the funds pay for the tooling and you have a beginning customer base. If you read a lot of '3rd part sites though' that is what they say, although I really think its a marketing ploy to push crowdfunding to other websites.
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Post by: Dentry
weeble1000 wrote:Nowadays in order to compete you've got to come with a finished, pre-production product, a marketing budget, a crowdfunding consultant, and two weeks of 16 hour work days to put in.
There's definitely merit to what you're saying. Perhaps the best example would be Beyond the Gates of Antares; there was pedigree, ideas, and smiles galore but (for the amount they were asking) there wasn't much else by way of models to get people invested.
Obviously, when you're raising funding for a miniatures game then a lot rides on the strength of your miniatures. That's one area that Fallen Frontiers seems to have covered.
The landscape has changed, certainly, it always does but ultimately a good product is a good product and the trick is getting that point across. Larger companies do that by investing in physical prototypes, renders and artwork, then drive pledges with stretch goals. The backer base has a whole has also matured a bit having gone through several KS campaigns already. Concerns and questions are put forward that have come out of that. People want to know that there's a plan and that things have been worked out well enough that their investment wont just be a fart in wind.
All of this is simply to say that whatever concerns Scale Games have, they have a solid platform for their crowdfunding campaign in Kickstarter. Honestly, the biggest obstacle (to a successful campaign) for anyone having a good product seems to be management.
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Post by: Alpharius
Exactly!
If being in a 'successful' Kickstarter these days means more up front prep work?
I think that's a good thing for ALL parties.
Ultimately, the campaign creators control *everything* - if they can do their homework first, and map out a campaign, they can still be as successful as possible.
And Kickstarter is still the best place to do that, as far as I can tell!
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Post by: weeble1000
Alpharius wrote:Exactly! If being in a 'successful' Kickstarter these days means more up front prep work? I think that's a good thing for ALL parties. Ultimately, the campaign creators control *everything* - if they can do their homework first, and map out a campaign, they can still be as successful as possible. And Kickstarter is still the best place to do that, as far as I can tell!
It is both good and bad Alph. Stay with me here: It is great in the sense that it encourages campaign creators to have their ducks in a row. However, it is bad in the sense that 'having your ducks in a row' nowadays pretty much means 'completed pre-production'. Completing pre-production can take a great deal of money up front. This means project creators have to get funding to...get funding? To a certain extent this is perfectly fine. If the project creator has no skin in the game, how do you know he/she is motivated to fulfill the pledge rewards? On the other hand, pre-production for certain types of products can involve more investment than many successfully funded TTG Kickstarters raise. You can be in a situation where you need a Kickstarter for your Kickstarter! Which is obviously farcical, but I think you get my point. If the community is demanding a certain level of up-front, pre-campaign investment (largely because of the amount of up-front pre-campaign investment typically poured in by large, established companies that can afford to do so), then prospective project creators who do not have that type of pre-campaign funding are cut off from access to crowdfunding. That is, the people that most need crowdfunding can't get it, because established companies have queered the Kickstarter marketplace. I think this is where criticism of Kickstarter comes from. Not all criticisms of Kickstarter are justified, of course, but there are consequences to how we, as TTG consumers, have treated Kickstarter. Ultimately it is a bed that we made, because if nobody had backed Zombicide (or any number of other examples, but I like to use Zombicide), then it wouldn't be the model to follow when organizing a Kickstarter campaign. We have created an environment in which a Kickstarter pledge reward is often expected to be: Professionally marketed Received exactly as shown during the campaign Delivered very quickly Discounted over RRP Given those prevalent expectations, is it surprising that people are saying Kickstarter is just a pre-order platform? Edit: Note that I do not personally feel that Kickstarter is just a pre-order platform. But I do feel that Kickstarter has become less a tool for encouraging the growth of new table top games companies and more a tool for the swift release of new products developed by established players in the market. You can still kickstart a new TTG business via the platform, but it is much, much harder to do so than it should be. I think one consequence is that we will see fewer and fewer truly new, innovative products on the market.
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
I actually think expecting KS to help grow new TTG companies is a mistake (and something KS specifically disallows)
projects are expected to be finite and have an end which is why people trying to KS podcasts, painting services etc have had to be so creative in how they set up their KS, and why if you want to buy a new laser for your 3D terrain firm you need to actually produce something physical too.
so while a ks for 'Super Awesome Minigame X' may help the company that makes it (publicity, plus giving them something they can sell after the KS) this is a by-product and specifically not what KS intended itself to do.
(but I agree with the rest of your analysis)
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Post by: weeble1000
 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:I actually think expecting KS to help grow new TTG companies is a mistake (and something KS specifically disallows) projects are expected to be finite and have an end which is why people trying to KS podcasts, painting services etc have had to be so creative in how they set up their KS, and why if you want to buy a new laser for your 3D terrain firm you need to actually produce something physical too. so while a ks for 'Super Awesome Minigame X' may help the company that makes it (publicity, plus giving them something they can sell after the KS) this is a by-product and specifically not what KS intended itself to do. (but I agree with the rest of your analysis)
I have to emphatically disagree (point out where KS specifically disallows growing new TTG companies). There is nothing about Kickstarter which prohibits producing a good or being a company. Kickstarter merely requires that a "project" be both "creative" and "finite." All this means that the project creator has to produce the item, the item must not already exist, i.e. it has to be created via the project, and that the project must have a finite goal, i.e. it must result in a specific thing being created. Inherently, this fundraising platform is tailor-made to kickstart a business, so long as that business is looking to produce something specific that is new. Nothing about Kickstarter says that a project creator can't later sell what it creates via Kickstarter. And Kickstarter very much allows for the purchase of any equipment or materials necessary to create the "something to share with others." In fact, Kickstarter is quite specifically for a "creator" that does not have access to traditional means of financing. I have an idea for a game. I want to share that game with others. I start a company and launch a Kickstarter campaign to raise the funds necessary to create that game. Together, the backers and I cooperate to achieve this finite goal: the creation of the game. I reward backers for their financial assistance by providing them a copy of said game. My company now has a product to sell (the game), thanks to Kickstarter. Later, I create another game without the assistance of Kickstarter because I now have a revenue stream from which to fund the development of new products. My company has been kickstarted because backers gave me the funds I needed to get my first product into production. That's how it is supposed to work. It's just people giving money to someone that wants to create something specific. It doesn't matter if the "creator" is also the owner of an LLC so long as the project is intended to fund the creation of something specific. From a much more fundamental perspective, Kicksterter is supposed to be for creators that would otherwise have trouble getting funding to create something. You know, like a guy who wants to create product but can't get a bank loan. I think what you are missing is the bright, glaring fact that a lot of businesses start by creating something new that the owner wants to share with others. You can't kickstart a retail business with Kickstarter, but you can absolutely kickstart a business designed to sell something that you create. Projects must create something to share with others.
Projects must be honest and clearly presented.
Projects can’t fundraise for charity, offer financial incentives, or involve prohibited items.
(We prohibit projects that are illegal, heavily regulated, or potentially dangerous for backers, as well as rewards that the creator did not make.)
Everything on Kickstarter must be a project. A project has a clear goal, like making an album, a book, or a work of art. A project will eventually be completed, and something will be produced by it.
Kickstarter does not allow projects to fundraise for charity or offer financial incentives. Check out our rules for details.
Resale. All rewards must have been produced or designed by the project or one of its creators — no reselling things from elsewhere.
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Post by: Alpharius
At the end of the day, Kickstarter = Best Platform for Best Chance of Success, as long as the Creator realizes they are, and should always remain, in control.
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Post by: Dentry
Yeah, all this is getting a bit off topic. We're focusing now on precedent rather than crowdsourcing platforms, of which I feel KS is the best option.
It seems the investment has already been made where Fallen Frontiers is concerned. They already have their models, renders, art. They just have to put it all together with the relevant info and structure their campaign appropriately.
Of course, they're going to need to have all the production and scheduling figured out as well to minimize delays. But that has to be done regardless.
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Post by: RiTides
I think if they just stick to resin, I'd be interested. The scale is a bit of an issue, though- they're just too large for me to use really. I wish them the best of luck with their relaunch, though!
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Post by: Triszin
Not the biggest fan of the PA, but the beserker elforc race looks nice. Happy to see an orcish race that isnt wearing junkyard scrap.
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Post by: Alpharius
RiTides wrote:I think if they just stick to resin, I'd be interested. The scale is a bit of an issue, though- they're just too large for me to use really. I wish them the best of luck with their relaunch, though!
I think the scale is 'set' at...whatever larger than 28mm heroic/32mm/35mm they've been working in since the start.
Point being that they really need to be VERY clear about the scale (with comparison shots!) and materials up front this time.
And they'll be OK!
Wild West Exodus and others have shown that 'odd' scales can work.
But it needs to be clear.
And they need to understated that it won't 'sell as well' (whatever that means) if it strays too far outside of the 'normal' heroic 28mm scale, for various reasons.
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Post by: shasolenzabi
Alpharius wrote: RiTides wrote:I think if they just stick to resin, I'd be interested. The scale is a bit of an issue, though- they're just too large for me to use really. I wish them the best of luck with their relaunch, though!
I think the scale is 'set' at...whatever larger than 28mm heroic/32mm/35mm they've been working in since the start.
Point being that they really need to be VERY clear about the scale (with comparison shots!) and materials up front this time.
And they'll be OK!
Wild West Exodus and others have shown that 'odd' scales can work.
But it needs to be clear.
And they need to understated that it won't 'sell as well' (whatever that means) if it strays too far outside of the 'normal' heroic 28mm scale, for various reasons.
They sem to have gotten that from my posts at them, and they thanked me for that information regarding their scale issues
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Post by: Gallahad
Triszin wrote: Happy to see an orcish race that isnt wearing junkyard scrap.
And one that apparently knows how to weld, leaving rivets far behind. It is a bit refreshing isn't it?
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Post by: Triszin
 Gallahad wrote:Triszin wrote: Happy to see an orcish race that isnt wearing junkyard scrap.
And one that apparently knows how to weld, leaving rivets far behind. It is a bit refreshing isn't it?
It's the same reason why I liked the orcs from mantics dreadball game. I was dissappointed to see the orcs go back to their savage armor.
I like the Idea of orcs being a brutal savage race, in the sense of their tactics and armament Everything was made for a purpose, it wasn't made to look flashy or shiny or nice, it all looks basic and bland. nothing has embossing or flashy details. And if they have the choice they would not wear armor (not being likely 99% of the time)
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Post by: Alpharius
Miniatures In Color 3 days ago
A game video is planned, I will see what I can do about some new pictures of miniatures, and try to get something soon of the final cast with a ruler for scale.
NEWS - Reported on FB Group. We are in the process of opening a US based distribution/warehouse that will carry the full line of Scale75 products including dual fighters and Fallen Frontiers. This process will also allow us to relaunch in US Dollars instead of pounds. Also shipping from a US based warehouse for all backers in the USA, Mexico, and Canada will help save on shipping cost, but we will also have a EU warehouse for all backers overseas as well.
The rules are being tweaked and worked on, we had lots of input and suggestions at GENCON, and we are trying to incorporate some of those ideas. A much better PDF with some printable cards so that you can actually play a demo game at home prior to release is also planned for launch.
Damon Prisk, you should checkout the new paint brushes Scale75 came out with they are very nice! also keep you eyes open for more awesome news in the next couple months.
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Post by: willb2064
They are relaunching this in November on Kickstarter according to their Facebook page (on phone can't paste link). Material will be resin, scale will be 35mm.
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Post by: Alpharius
Looking forward to it!
Fallen Frontiers
October 14 · Edited
Thursdays will be Press Release days, starting this Thursday October 16th 2014, and every Thursday thereafter.
Fallen Frontiers
October 7 · Edited
Hello Again, I wanted to inform you that I would be cleaning out the old Kickstarter post from this group this week so as to avoid any confusion with the new campaign about to get underway. I didn't want to just start removing post without informing you first. I will try and keep any pictures and informative post if they still apply to the new Kickstarter campaign. As always thank you for your continued support.
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Post by: plastictrees
Neat. I'm definitely interested in this if they have all their ducks in a row this time (there was really only one duck causing problems last time...this duck analogy is starting to break down).
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Post by: Nostromodamus
I give precisely zero ducks about this one.
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Post by: Taarnak
And I give many...
They said on Facebook that there would be multiple pictures with rulers to show size this time. I'm personally ok with 35mm-ish figures, but I understand why folks aren't.
Definitely looking forward to the relaunch.
~Eric
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Post by: plastictrees
That's definitely the only big hurdle for me. If I was confident that I could use their minis convincingly on the terrain I'll be putting together for Infinity I'd be less concerned.
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
Yeah, I'm with you. 35mm? Resin? Kickstarter? Thanks, but no thanks.
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Post by: gohkm
35mm? Resin?
HELL YEAH.
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Post by: Alpharius
I actually am quite excited by this relaunch!
If everything is clear upfront, I'm prepared to endure the almost inevitable KS waiting period +...!
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Post by: Artemis Black
willb2064 wrote:They are relaunching this in November on Kickstarter according to their Facebook page (on phone can't paste link). Material will be resin, scale will be 35mm.
I don't think they've actually come out and said they are 35mm again have they? Because that's what they said last time which was basically an outright lie, in the mini world if a figure's head is 40mm or more they are not in any way 35mm figures. Not even to the eyes. The only thing I saw them say was a sidestep of the question by saying Wild West Exodus is "35mm" and they match their figures. I'm still amused nobody has put a ruler in a single figure shot in all these intervening months
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Post by: Dentry
Had forgotten about this one already. How fickle of me.
Like what I've seen since the last KS was terminated and am interested to see what a relaunch will have to offer. They better hurry, though, before other kickstarters come along and take my Christmas money.
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Post by: Alpharius
What have you heard about upcoming Kickstarters that will compete for our tabletop gaming dollars?
Conan?
And...?
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Post by: Theophony
Alpharius wrote:What have you heard about upcoming Kickstarters that will compete for our tabletop gaming dollars?
Conan?
And...?
I'd be surprised if Mantic doesn't have one going at that time. It seems their business plan is to always have a KS going.
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Post by: Dentry
Alpharius wrote:What have you heard about upcoming Kickstarters that will compete for our tabletop gaming dollars?
Conan?
And...?
Nothing specific. I'm sure CMoN will have one out soon enough - maybe their pirate KS - and, of course, Poot's KD posts which seem to mandate tribute. But overall just a sentiment on catching our dollars before something else does.
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Post by: Zond
If everything is clear up front and the same pledge levels are available I can see myself happily going for this.
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Post by: Alpharius
Miniatures In Color 4 days ago
Howdy folks, in the next few days this Campaign will be removed from KS. As they prepare for the reboot. So if you are looking for news check out the Facebook Official page, ( https://www.facebook.com/Fallenfrontiers ) or check the new twitter feed for more info. @FallenFrontiers ( https://twitter.com/FallenFrontiers)
Hope to see all the Supporters at the reboot!
I didn't think KS removed anything - but then, who knows?
From Facebook:
Fallen Frontiers
2 hours ago · Edited
Hello everyone,
Today we are proud to announce that Fallen Frontiers is coming to Kickstarter on Friday the 14th of November!
Make sure to share this date with all of your friends and back us on day 1 so that we can get funded quickly and start working towards unlocking a ton of stretch goals, getting you more sci-fi awesomeness.
Thank you all for your support!
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Post by: Siygess
Hey, good luck to them. Personally I hope they do a characters pledge that offers.. well, all of the characters. For painters and the like
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Post by: Nostromodamus
Why do KS creators seem to think holiday season is an awesome time to ask people for money? Wallets are stretched enough, especially in the US market.
Whatever, not like I was interested in this anyway. Good luck to them.
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Post by: Zond
I'll try and squeeze this in, was hoping for 2015, but big chunky sci fi figures and I'm sold.
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Post by: Alpharius
Agreed on the horrible timing - end of the year, near Christmas?
Ugh.
I'll give it a look, and hopefully EVERYTHING is clear right from the start.
Material, size, scale, etc.
I really liked what I saw last time around, so hopefully it is even better this time around!
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Post by: cincydooley
Alex C wrote:Why do KS creators seem to think holiday season is an awesome time to ask people for money? Wallets are stretched enough, especially in the US market.
Just give your kids less. You already give them room and board for free. Right? Right?
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Post by: Gallahad
cincydooley wrote: Alex C wrote:Why do KS creators seem to think holiday season is an awesome time to ask people for money? Wallets are stretched enough, especially in the US market.
Just give your kids less. You already give them room and board for free. Right? Right?
Yeah, I wont even be giving them a look for this reason. I think that European game/miniature developers are not conscious of the holiday squeeze because the portion of the target demographic across the pond with families is significantly smaller.
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Post by: Nostromodamus
 Gallahad wrote: cincydooley wrote: Alex C wrote:Why do KS creators seem to think holiday season is an awesome time to ask people for money? Wallets are stretched enough, especially in the US market.
Just give your kids less. You already give them room and board for free. Right? Right?
Yeah, I wont even be giving them a look for this reason. I think that European game/miniature developers are not conscious of the holiday squeeze because the portion of the target demographic across the pond with families is significantly smaller.
Americans also have Thanksgiving and Black Friday expenses at the end of November in addition to the usual wintry religious holiday of your choice.
Sure, the new world doesn't represent the entirety of the market, but it is a significant portion and one that should not be ignored.
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Post by: plastictrees
Kingdom Death did fine at this time, as did Imbrian Arts (given its scale).
It's not going to work for everyone obviously but I don't think it a death sentence.
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Post by: Nostromodamus
You'd think Boxing Day would be the best launch date, with Chrimbo cash burning holes in gamers' pockets...
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Post by: Alpharius
 plastictrees wrote:Kingdom Death did fine at this time, as did Imbrian Arts (given its scale).
It's not going to work for everyone obviously but I don't think it a death sentence.
Kingdom Death ended on January 7, 2013 - getting an end date on the other side of Christmas, and maybe an extra paycheck or two, certainly helped.
This one is going to start on November 14 and then end on December 15 (30 day campaign?) - a week *before* Christmas...
Not sexy!
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Post by: Mymearan
From FB:
Part 1/3 – Scale
During the last kickstarter there was much confusion regarding the scale of our miniatures, and this time around we want to be crystal clear: the scale of our miniatures is 35mm to the eyes. This means that a 1,80m tall human in a standing pose is 38mm tall from head to sole, which is also known as 1:48 scale (American O scale).
Using this scale allows us to do many things. It allows us to maintain realistic proportions for our miniatures without making them so small that you can’t paint them with ease, or having to bloat the head and hands resulting in cartoonish proportions. It also makes miniatures easier to produce at higher quality and with less miscasts. Finally this scale is only slightly bigger than other manufacturers, allowing you to use all of your existing terrain and storage space with ease.
All of this together means that you get high quality, easy to paint miniatures at a compatible scale, allowing us to give you the best possible hobby experience with Fallen Frontiers.
(Note that some miniatures might be smaller or bigger depending on their pose and race.)
1
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Post by: Alpharius
Excellent!
Now they just need to clearly answer the "Material Question" right out of the gate and we'll be off and running!
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Post by: Piston Honda
Alpharius wrote:Excellent!
Now they just need to clearly answer the "Material Question" right out of the gate and we'll be off and running!
Remember how well that went last time?
Q: What will the miniatures be made of?
A: Resin unless we get enough funds to make them in hard plastic. PVC is an option as well. We don't really know.
Q: How do you plan on producing that many miniatures in resin with the time scale you have listed?
A: We have a well trained crew set up to deliver the product on timely scale. Ignore the very late delivery of a much much smaller kickstarter. Producing them in PVC is another option to meet deadlines.
Q: I thought you said you will NOT be producing these in PVC?
A: We can guarantee that the miniatures will be in resin unless we get enough funds to do them in hard plastic. We absolutely will not produce them in PVC... but we might.
Repeat the material question about a dozen times to get a realistic feel to the last kickstarter.
I will be sitting on this kickstarter to the very end. Was not happy with how they handled the last kickstarter, bad time of the year for me (Xmas presents). I would be a bit more interested this "true skirmish" sized game.
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Post by: frozenwastes
Piston Honda wrote:
Repeat the material question about a dozen times to get a realistic feel to the last kickstarter.
It really was a thing of beauty.
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Post by: gohkm
Not the materials kerfuffle again! I was so looking forward to this, but only in resin.
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Post by: Artemis Black
Hmm, have they made all the figures smaller now? Because that newly printed one dosn't look the same size as the painted ones in previous images from the last campaign.
You'd think they'd mention it if they changed the scale entirely surely.
Even if they haven't changed the size and 'somehow' the original images were bizarrely misleading why would you use the smallest figure you'd produced out of dozens as your scale shot. All of the Ares (which look like humans), All of the Riff and All of whatever those werewolfy ones were called are 'way' bigger than this guy.
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Post by: Alpharius
That's probably OK though, as I think Ares and the Orc looking ones are supposed to be bigger?
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Post by: Theophony
I think it's also due to the base sizes, the older pics have them all on their bases supplied with each figure from different manufacturers, the new pic they all seem to be on the same size base.
Still the size is too far off for me. I can see it working for some games like WWE, but they don't fit that genre, so another no there to me.
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Post by: Vertrucio
Also, the older pic is taken at a higher angle.
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Post by: Alpharius
This new pic makes me feel even better about this one.
My terrain will work just fine with miniatures of this size!
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Post by: RiTides
They also picked a GW model with massive hair . The figure on the far right of the second pic looks pretty good for a truescale marine, though.
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Post by: Artemis Black
FF have said it was the bases when I asked them. I guess I'll have to take their word for it but the base looks the same height to me in that shot, doesn't seem to account for what must be 2 or 3 mm of difference, most bases are only 3mm high in total.
Not the greatest start imo. It 'is' however better than last time at least.
I still find it dubious using your universes version of shortarses as the 'scale' your minis are in but if they put up ruler shots of the Ares and Riff etc. then that will be considerably more upfront.
Every other faction is a number of mm taller than this guy so will be interesting to see those comparisons done in the same way.
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Post by: Delephont
Artemis Black wrote:FF have said it was the bases when I asked them. I guess I'll have to take their word for it but the base looks the same height to me in that shot, doesn't seem to account for what must be 2 or 3 mm of difference, most bases are only 3mm high in total.
Not the greatest start imo. It 'is' however better than last time at least.
I still find it dubious using your universes version of shortarses as the 'scale' your minis are in but if they put up ruler shots of the Ares and Riff etc. then that will be considerably more upfront.
Every other faction is a number of mm taller than this guy so will be interesting to see those comparisons done in the same way.
Seriously? They're not using their "universes versions of shortarses" as a basis for scale, it's clear that the human faction is the "baseline" with their Super humans and aliens being bigger than a standard human......geeze is that really so hard to comprehend?
All I'm seeing now for posts like this is malicious trolling and nit picking in order to undermine the project. If you think the minis are too big don't buy them, if you're worried about material, don't buy them, if you feel the minis won't fit into WH40K,......you got it, don't buy it! But for the love of god stop harping on about faults which aren't there.
They've clarified the scale, so take it or leave it. I hate the scaling of GW WH40K minis so I don't buy them.....it's not rocket science. The question of material is out there, so give them a chance to formulate a response, if it's not what you want then don't buy. But please have some consideration for those who want this product to succeed, and lay off the poison posts that might drive away investors based on nothing but Scales determination to not have you as their focused customer!
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Post by: cincydooley
Delephont wrote:
All I'm seeing now for posts like this is malicious trolling and nit picking in order to undermine the project. If you think the minis are too big don't buy them, if you're worried about material... But for the love of god stop harping on about faults which aren't there.
Well, the scale issue was there before.
The material issue is STILL there.
I"m personally excited/intrigued by the relaunch, but please, lets not pretend people are making up issues.
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Post by: Artemis Black
Delephont wrote: Artemis Black wrote:FF have said it was the bases when I asked them. I guess I'll have to take their word for it but the base looks the same height to me in that shot, doesn't seem to account for what must be 2 or 3 mm of difference, most bases are only 3mm high in total.
Not the greatest start imo. It 'is' however better than last time at least.
I still find it dubious using your universes version of shortarses as the 'scale' your minis are in but if they put up ruler shots of the Ares and Riff etc. then that will be considerably more upfront.
Every other faction is a number of mm taller than this guy so will be interesting to see those comparisons done in the same way.
Seriously? They're not using their "universes versions of shortarses" as a basis for scale, it's clear that the human faction is the "baseline" with their Super humans and aliens being bigger than a standard human......geeze is that really so hard to comprehend?
No, nobody finds it hard to comprehend. The thing that you seem to be unable to comprehend is that the humans in their universe 'are' the shortarses. All 3 other revealead factions are considerably taller, including the Ares who look human. This isn't a game based on humans with some larger outliers, this is game based on larger races with some humans. Hence using the humans as the scale is an odd thing to do. It's totally fine to show how large the humans are of course, in fact it's recommended as those are the minis with the most crossover appeal in general.
It's like releasing a game with 3 human factions and an ogre faction and calling it a 50mm game because the Ogres are. Somewhat confusing if 75% of the minis are 33mm tall.
As far as has been shown so far the Sayx are one of the 2 human-looking races, they are also the shortest of the 4 core races released so far. The Ares also look human and seem to be considerably taller. In fact this Tarken Stahl model is the only Sayx model they seem to have actually had printed up, when there seem to be lots of Ares and Riff models knocking about, and yet they've chosen the shortest mini they have for the only ruler shots so far and as the basis for the scale of their game. That is not the normal way to go about things regardless of how much you like their game or like big minis or whatever it is you like. As such it's worthy of comment.
Delephont wrote:All I'm seeing now for posts like this is malicious trolling and nit picking in order to undermine the project.
If that's all you're seeing then you aren't looking very hard, which doesn't seem to be my problem.
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Post by: Vertrucio
Scale issues are a non issue to me so long as they are in scale with each other, and are close enough for most scifi terrain.
Anyone only using GW terrain or relying too much on GW measurements probably deserves to stay with GW's own brand of madness.
Material is an issue, but I still say that not knowing the exact material is fine, so long as you lay out ahead of time that they'll use X material if they hit Y level of funding, make it stretch goals even. That's something they haven't done yet.
However, many miniature games already on the market will switch materials on a per miniature basis. And with the larger size of these models, materials thought to be poor for miniatures might work out okay.
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Post by: Artemis Black
Vertrucio wrote:Scale issues are a non issue to me so long as they are in scale with each other, and are close enough for most scifi terrain.
That second part was of great concern during the last campaign, which is why so many questions were asked. Despite some eejits elsewhere having ruptions about 'evil Artemis' or whatever I am not doing anything other than asking really basic questions that any other mini company could answer in seconds. Any problems comign from that are not the question's fault
For example we have now have a legitimate ruler shot which indicates that Tarken Stahl is 38mm tall, 35mm to the eyes. That's great, now we know how large he is.
'However', he is the shortest figure they have produced so far, which makes calling the game '35mm' more than a little odd. Doesn't mean they can't, they can call it whatever they like, but it does invite people to repeatedly point out that it's misleading, which they will and that will start arguments with the cheerleaders and drag the campaign down so, to me, it's a silly move.
Also, there are discrepancies in that. The original shot, as shown above, seems to show he is taller than that (or rather that particular 3d print was taller than that). There's also things like this professional artists page...
http://arsiesweb.com/2014/08/past-jerezs-workshop-review.html
... where he states pretty categorically that the resin casts of Tarken he received are 40mm to the eye and 43mm tall. (He's also selling a pro-painted one elsewhere and calls it 40mm).
That's just weird. And it matters for two reasons. The first is simply that it's a discrepancy, that's never good when someone is questioning what you are saying. There could quite conceivably be anumber of different sized 3D prints available to FF to make casts of, in which case every image is actually correct and the minis are all just different sizes. However if they haven't also printed out different sized versions of the other races then the second reason is that they are already larger than the painted Tarken Stahls, if this new unpainted one is shorter they will be even larger again in comparison. Which is why it's important to show those in a ruler/comparison shot too.
These are the kind of things that a KS campaign manager needs to be on top of fairly quickly. Stick a ruler in a shot with the green or blue painted Tarkens? Stick a ruler in a shot with the Ares minis or the Riff ones, and not on a photoshopped black background, just sat there on a desk. Remove and and all doubt from backers mind and make it 100% clear what people are actually pledging for. That not only leads to more pledges in general but definitely leads to a lot more long term potential as it reduced the number of people who are disappointed when product arrives.
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Post by: Delephont
Artemis Black wrote: Vertrucio wrote:Scale issues are a non issue to me so long as they are in scale with each other, and are close enough for most scifi terrain.
That second part was of great concern during the last campaign, which is why so many questions were asked. Despite some eejits elsewhere having ruptions about 'evil Artemis' or whatever I am not doing anything other than asking really basic questions that any other mini company could answer in seconds. Any problems comign from that are not the question's fault
For example we have now have a legitimate ruler shot which indicates that Tarken Stahl is 38mm tall, 35mm to the eyes. That's great, now we know how large he is.
'However', he is the shortest figure they have produced so far, which makes calling the game '35mm' more than a little odd. Doesn't mean they can't, they can call it whatever they like, but it does invite people to repeatedly point out that it's misleading, which they will and that will start arguments with the cheerleaders and drag the campaign down so, to me, it's a silly move.
Also, there are discrepancies in that. The original shot, as shown above, seems to show he is taller than that (or rather that particular 3d print was taller than that). There's also things like this professional artists page...
http://arsiesweb.com/2014/08/past-jerezs-workshop-review.html
... where he states pretty categorically that the resin casts of Tarken he received are 40mm to the eye and 43mm tall. (He's also selling a pro-painted one elsewhere and calls it 40mm).
That's just weird. And it matters for two reasons. The first is simply that it's a discrepancy, that's never good when someone is questioning what you are saying. There could quite conceivably be anumber of different sized 3D prints available to FF to make casts of, in which case every image is actually correct and the minis are all just different sizes. However if they haven't also printed out different sized versions of the other races then the second reason is that they are already larger than the painted Tarken Stahls, if this new unpainted one is shorter they will be even larger again in comparison. Which is why it's important to show those in a ruler/comparison shot too.
These are the kind of things that a KS campaign manager needs to be on top of fairly quickly. Stick a ruler in a shot with the green or blue painted Tarkens? Stick a ruler in a shot with the Ares minis or the Riff ones, and not on a photoshopped black background, just sat there on a desk. Remove and and all doubt from backers mind and make it 100% clear what people are actually pledging for. That not only leads to more pledges in general but definitely leads to a lot more long term potential as it reduced the number of people who are disappointed when product arrives.
And this is my point.....you've made your accusations and points, right? So now it's clear you won't be funding this project, right? So, why continue to come back and harass it? You did the same thing the first time round, I just don't understand what it is you want to achieve!
People aren't stupid, they can make their own decisions about how they spend their money, why do you think they need your "guidance" every other post? Not everyone is concerned about being able to use these miniatures for any other game outside of Fallen Frontiers, and not everyone is concerned about being able to use "common" Sci Fi terrain. So rather than pollute this thread with negative vibes, why not just walk away and leave the thread to those who wish to follow and enjoy the project?
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Post by: Piston Honda
gohkm wrote:Not the materials kerfuffle again! I was so looking forward to this, but only in resin.
It will be in resin. They are looking into producing them in hard plastic. They don't plan on making them in PVC because they care about quality.
But they still could be produced in PVC.
You'll probably find out when it's too late.
Or maybe not.
They have decided to not decide at this point in time.
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Post by: Artemis Black
Delephont wrote:
And this is my point.....you've made your accusations and points, right? So now it's clear you won't be funding this project, right? So, why continue to come back and harass it? You did the same thing the first time round, I just don't understand what it is you want to achieve!
People aren't stupid, they can make their own decisions about how they spend their money, why do you think they need your "guidance" every other post? Not everyone is concerned about being able to use these miniatures for any other game outside of Fallen Frontiers, and not everyone is concerned about being able to use "common" Sci Fi terrain. So rather than pollute this thread with negative vibes, why not just walk away and leave the thread to those who wish to follow and enjoy the project?
Because this isn't a Fallen Frontiers Supporters Round Table, it's a discussion group for minis. As both a consumer and a manufacturer various things about this kickstarter both interest and concern me, hence I will discuss them in an approproate place with other people who are also interested in the discussion.
It seems odd that your point is that because I've made mine I am no longer allowed to reply to people or venture any further discussion but I am guessing the same rules somehow won't apply to you replying to me. I mean after all you have now made your point that you don't think I should be continuing to talk about this so that's done right, no need to say it or anything like it again. Is that how it works?
I guess I should have a nose around the rest of the threads and see if this happens elsewhere i.e. people atacking anyone who questions a kickstarter that they like for whatever reason, or whether it's particularly virulent with this one. It's seemed bizarre to me since the start.
"How tall are your miniatures exactly?"
"Stop asking questions you trolling trolly troll, I don't care how tall they are, that's not important to the world, your'e just jealous of them and you probably smell of wee'
"..."
Disregarding the above, I do have a question for you. Do you not care, even the slightest bit, about any of the questions asked? I'd like to make it clear before this next part that I do not think , in any way, that Scale are out to defraud people or are just going to take people's money and run etc. I think some porkies have been told in the past and there was a lot of mishandling of information but I do think that they will produce a product and deliver it to pledgers. But let's say all of the worst things were true, they lied on purpose about the size of the minis to draw in confused punters, they didn't mention the material to make it seem like it was all hard plastic and so on. Isn't that something that you'd want to know? And isn't the only way you'd know that is people asking questions and uncovering the information? When did that become a thing you abuse people for?
Hell, Scale haven't abused me, I'm guessing they'd quite like to know the things which, through mishandling rather than malice, make them look dodgy. How else do they fix them?
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Post by: frozenwastes
Delephont wrote:
And this is my point.....you've made your accusations and points, right? So now it's clear you won't be funding this project, right? So, why continue to come back and harass it? You did the same thing the first time round, I just don't understand what it is you want to achieve!
Discussion?
Also, this crazy idea of having the basic characteristics of your product clearly outlined might actually help with the new KS. Fallen Frontiers might do better this time around precisely because people just didn't give everything a pass, or express their opinion once and then fade away.
So rather than pollute this thread with negative vibes, why not just walk away and leave the thread to those who wish to follow and enjoy the project?
I suspect you'll find the source of negative vibes in the closest reflective surface.
Artemis Black wrote:
Disregarding the above, I do have a question for you. Do you not care, even the slightest bit, about any of the questions asked?
Hey Delephont, what do you think about the size of the miniatures and the material they might be made out of? Do you prefer metal or resin? Would you rather have the typical trooper in the power armour army be 50mm tall or 30mm tall or something else? Whatever your preference, do you think the company running the KS should be clear and upfront about it, or speculative and evasive about it? What's your preference?
Hell, Scale haven't abused me, I'm guessing they'd quite like to know the things which, through mishandling rather than malice, make them look dodgy. How else do they fix them?
You fix them by having everyone pretend they don't exist and then shouting down anyone who mentions them. Obviously
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Post by: Delephont
The problem with your posts, is that you focus on circumstantial 'evidence' to base your attacks. So, let's take a minute to think about the scale issue. FF take a photo of one of their miniatures and show it clearly with a sample set of other miniatures. Now, for any reasonable critic this would be fine.....not for you however, instead, you see it as a plot to somehow mislead?!?!
And your reasoning, they've supposedly taken their smallest miniatures and based their game scaling off of that?!?!
Now, let's think about this. In their comparison sample photo, they had a Space Marine and a female Elf....yet, I don't see you complaining about that? Is a Space Marine the baseline for GW? I mean, there are hundreds of miniatures in the GW range that are bigger, an Orgyn perhaps? Maybe a deamon prince? Or what about an Eldar Avatar?....hell, what about a terminator? The list goes on. So you expect FF (in order to satisfy the scale issues) to do what? Take each miniature in their range and produce a side by side photo of it's nearest equivalent in the GW range? Would you have complained if they put their biggest miniature alongside a Ratlin Sniper or a Grot? Would that have made more sense to you?
You know as well as I, that FF have placed their baseline figure alongside the baseline figures of other companies, end of. Who cares if 90% of their range is bigger than the baseline? If it fits in with their setting and fluff, then so be it, it doesn't change the baseline.
I wouldn't mind, FF have NEVER said their intention is to make proxy miniatures for any other game! So all of this debate is based on nothing but your insistence that scale compatibility should be a project objective?!?!
If you want to mention material, then fine, but until we know one way or another we have nothing to debate. Did you get a say in what material GW use for their products? Fine cast wasn't the product of a democratic vote was it? And regardless of the material, if the miniatures come out looking like the design then what's the issue? Of course we won't know that until the kick starter has ended and their product is delivered.
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Post by: spartan059
Regarding races and size this is what they say about the ares: they are aliens genetically engineered to look like super humans.
I also really don't see what the issue with scale is. They clearly state that they are 1:48 scale and 35 mm to the eyes of a normal human. Now they show a scale shot with a ruler Artemis is still complaining. A number of companies are using a larger scale too, look at the Wild West exodus figure that is the same size. Malifaux models, Spartan's Dystopian Legions, and even War machine are similar in size and larger scale. I don't see you in those other threads discussing scale issues with those ranges. In looking at your post count Artemis it seems like the only thread you have ever posted in is this one (aside from a few posts about war prime). It comes across as you have a desire to see this project fail.
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Post by: frozenwastes
Delephont wrote:The problem with your posts, is that you focus on circumstantial 'evidence' to base your attacks.
Could you entertain the possibility, if only for a moment, that the things he is saying are not attacks? Just for a moment? You know as well as I, that FF have placed their baseline figure alongside the baseline figures of other companies, end of. Who cares if 90% of their range is bigger than the baseline? If it fits in with their setting and fluff, then so be it, it doesn't change the baseline.
This is true, but only for all definitions of baseline that are meaningless. I have this weird idea that if 90% of a figure range is larger than something you call baseline you might either have a useless definition of baseline or made an error in terms of which miniature is a baseline for the figure range. Strange, I know. I wouldn't mind, FF have NEVER said their intention is to make proxy miniatures for any other game! So all of this debate is based on nothing but your insistence that scale compatibility should be a project objective?!?!
How about actually letting the backers know exactly how big the miniatures they are pledging for actually are? Isn't that a legitimate idea? Or is that an attack? Automatically Appended Next Post: spartan059 wrote: It comes across as you have a desire to see this project fail.
Sounds to me like an opportunity for the project to succeed. If you can take on board the feedback of your most vocal critic and have everything squared away in advance, surely that's better for everyone who decides to pledge right? Surely clear information about scale and material is better than fuzzy information?
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Post by: Vertrucio
Atremis, you are incessantly posting full page posts on it though.
And again, you're not covering any new ground. The questions were already asked, the questions were then answered, especially now that they've given us a lineup.
Which is why people are tired when you've jumped to find something new to complain about.
I said in my post, scale doesn't matter so long as they're in scale with each other. So it still doesn't matter if the other guys are even larger. You keep repeating as though we're idiots that can't understand that. We do understand that, do you understand that we already know?
It will still work with most generic terrain, and if the game is good people will find terrain for it.
There's also a place in the market for something bigger.
Make your post succinct. Keep pressing on the material issue, sure, because they haven't issued a clearer statement on that. But this scale thing you keep going back to is done.
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Post by: Albino Squirrel
Artemis manufactures miniatures, and all of his posts on Dakka have been attacking or casting aspersions on other miniatures manufacturers. If he really just want to participate in discussion, it's a bit odd that he has never had anything positive to say about anything. It's obvious he's just here to attack and troll, and I think it would be better for everyone and the conversation in general if we all just ignored his rants.
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Post by: Artemis Black
Delephont wrote:The problem with your posts, is that you focus on circumstantial 'evidence' to base your attacks. So, let's take a minute to think about the scale issue. FF take a photo of one of their miniatures and show it clearly with a sample set of other miniatures. Now, for any reasonable critic this would be fine.....not for you however, instead, you see it as a plot to somehow mislead?!?!
See, this would be why I post longer posts instead of short ones. I do so in an attempt to be clear and yet despite that you still decide to make up your own version of what I said. Nobody mentioned a 'plot to mislead' except you. I'm wondering, out loud, why certain things don't match up. There may be legitimate answers to that, that's how questions work.
(You also didn't list any circumstantial evidence despite mentioning it)
Delephont wrote:And your reasoning, they've supposedly taken their smallest miniatures and based their game scaling off of that?!?!
Well that wasn't my reasoning for anything, it's just a random fact. They have taken their smallest miniature and based their game scale off it?
Delephont wrote:Now, let's think about this. In their comparison sample photo, they had a Space Marine and a female Elf....yet, I don't see you complaining about that? Is a Space Marine the baseline for GW? I mean, there are hundreds of miniatures in the GW range that are bigger, an Orgyn perhaps? Maybe a deamon prince? Or what about an Eldar Avatar?....hell, what about a terminator? The list goes on. So you expect FF (in order to satisfy the scale issues) to do what? Take each miniature in their range and produce a side by side photo of it's nearest equivalent in the GW range? Would you have complained if they put their biggest miniature alongside a Ratlin Sniper or a Grot? Would that have made more sense to you?
I'll answer the question at the end and ignore the rest as I'm not entirely certain what you're on about. Nothing would have made 'more' sense to me. What they did was perfectly fine and dandy as a scale shot. What I said in response was twofold a) how come it doesn't match the previous scale shot and b) can we have more please.
Delephont wrote:You know as well as I, that FF have placed their baseline figure alongside the baseline figures of other companies, end of. Who cares if 90% of their range is bigger than the baseline? If it fits in with their setting and fluff, then so be it, it doesn't change the baseline.
As someone else replied, that is an odd use of a 'baseline'. Generally you'd want the scale your minsi are in to be clear to anyone who gives just a cursory glance. So you'd use a number that corresponded to the majority of your game/line. That's fairly standad practice. Saying that, it's still not the point. The point was always 'Please make it clear what actual size your miniatures are'. Note that there's a plural in there, it's miniatures not 'Please make ti clear what the size of your smallest mininaure is'.
Delephont wrote:I wouldn't mind, FF have NEVER said their intention is to make proxy miniatures for any other game! So all of this debate is based on nothing but your insistence that scale compatibility should be a project objective?!?!
You must have me confused with someone else. I don't give a flying monkeys tump if their product is compatible with other companies. They probably should but I have no idea why I would. Automatically Appended Next Post: Vertrucio wrote:Atremis, you are incessantly posting full page posts on it though.
And again, you're not covering any new ground. The questions were already asked, the questions were then answered, especially now that they've given us a lineup.
Which is why people are tired when you've jumped to find something new to complain about.
I said in my post, scale doesn't matter so long as they're in scale with each other. So it still doesn't matter if the other guys are even larger. You keep repeating as though we're idiots that can't understand that. We do understand that, do you understand that we already know?
It will still work with most generic terrain, and if the game is good people will find terrain for it.
There's also a place in the market for something bigger.
Make your post succinct. Keep pressing on the material issue, sure, because they haven't issued a clearer statement on that. But this scale thing you keep going back to is done.
As far as I'm aware the material thing 'was' resolved last Kickstarter, they said it was all going to be in high quality resin, cast in house. Unless they change it for this kickstarter, I thought that was the one issue they answered succinctly by the end.
As for Scale by problem with it doesn't seem to be what you think it is. I already knew what size their minis were in comparison to other minis, they posted a comparison shot. My problem last kickstarter was that it was hidden away and that '35mm' didn't accurately represent what they were selling and would lead to people buying them thinking thy would match other companies minis, like my own, which actually 'are' in that size range (Our are a bit smaller but may have matched if these were 35mm).
Other than a bit of eyebrow raising that the new photos don't seem to match the old photos that issue, to me, remains the same. They are sticking with '35mm' as a descriptor for their game when their smallest mini shown so far is 35mm to the eyes and 38mm tall. That is confusing and could potentially affect me as a retailer as well as just a consumer.
I agree with you that there could be a place for a larger scale game, it seems though that FF don't and keep shying away from 'being' a larger scale game. Automatically Appended Next Post: Albino Squirrel wrote:Artemis manufactures miniatures, and all of his posts on Dakka have been attacking or casting aspersions on other miniatures manufacturers. If he really just want to participate in discussion, it's a bit odd that he has never had anything positive to say about anything. It's obvious he's just here to attack and troll, and I think it would be better for everyone and the conversation in general if we all just ignored his rants.
I don't know which of those lil green men is supposed to represent an eye roll so we'll all have to just pretend I inserted one here.
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Post by: Delephont
#sigh#
So if you're not worried about compatibility with other games then the whole scale issue is moot. It's as big as it is, done.
However, it's clear that no matter what anyone says you're here to push your agenda. Just be clear, your posts are doing more damage to your integrity than it does to Scale Miniatures.
A final point. If you sincerely wanted to help Scale Miniatures, don't you think it would be more useful (practically and professionally, considering your own industry involvement) to approach them directly? How does posting your innocent concerns (repeatedly) on a public forum help to clear up the issues you're so vocal about? The only thing your posts will do is ferment distrust for Scale Miniatures....and you don't want that do you? Especially as they clearly aren't here to (defend) respond to your questions.
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Post by: Artemis Black
Delephont wrote:#sigh#
So if you're not worried about compatibility with other games then the whole scale issue is moot. It's as big as it is, done.
I honestly don't know how to respond to that sentence, either you are purposefully missing the point or we are somehow not speaking the same language.
Delephont wrote:However, it's clear that no matter what anyone says you're here to push your agenda. Just be clear, your posts are doing more damage to your integrity than it does to Scale Miniatures.
It might be clear to you, but I honestly have no idea what you think I'm saying at this point so that doesn't mean much to me. I don't have an agenda to push if that's helpful to you in any way? Nor am I going to be swayed by assumptions about my integrity, I am perfectly comfortable with the questions I've asked and will remain so. I consider them important to the industry in general and to me personally as a consumer.
Delephont wrote:A final point. If you sincerely wanted to help Scale Miniatures, don't you think it would be more useful (practically and professionally, considering your own industry involvement) to approach them directly? How does posting your innocent concerns (repeatedly) on a public forum help to clear up the issues you're so vocal about? The only thing your posts will do is ferment distrust for Scale Miniatures....and you don't want that do you? Especially as they clearly aren't here to (defend) respond to your questions.
Where did i say I sincerely wanted to help Scale Games? This is like the 5th time you've started with a totally made up premise. I don't know anyone at Scale Games, I'd never heard of Scale Games before someone showed me a photo of the blue painted Tarken Stahl just before the last Kickstarter. I don't work for them or anything. I 'do' believe that if they followed my, and others, advice they would be better off but I'm not going out of my way to 'sincerely help' them.
The only way my posts would ferment distrust is if the answers to my questions warrant it. Generally asking a company questions like 'how tall is that mini', 'what are the minis going to be made of' 'how come the other photo of that mini seems taller' 'is that a 75mm figure in your 35mm kickstarter' etc. tend to be followed by short answers. For some reason with this kickstarter they were met with vagueness and problems with the language barrier which some of their more fervent fans took as a reason to go nuts at the people asking the question.
Just to once again try and be clear, my interest in this kickstarter was both as a consumer and as a fellow retailer. As a consumer I liked the first product I saw but was put off by, eventually, finding out the actual size. That was pretty much the end of my involvement as a consumer (I might have had some interest in picking up the non human figures like the Riff as a larger scale race). As a retailer it is in my best interests, and the best interests of other retailers and manufacturers, to make sure companies correctly identify their product. Miniatures are compared and contrasted and for that to be useful they need to be correctly identified.
Any other involvement has just been discussion with others (or, admittedly, in some cases poking some fun at others who seem to be a bit too worked up that I was asking questions about mininatures they liked).
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Post by: Delephont
Artemis Black wrote:
Where did i say I sincerely wanted to help Scale Games?
Generally asking a company questions
Well with regards to the first part, you keep saying that your ranting is in the best interests of you as a consumer and retailer. So if you consider yourself a potential consumer and/or retailer then I would assume you want a good product, if you feel the product is being misrepresented, then you must LOGICALLY want to help them in order to help yourself......its called a logical extrapolation!
So, that was me giving you the benefit of the doubt. If, like you say, you have no interest in helping FF, then you can only be a vindictive troll, anyone else with no interest would state the reason once and walk away. I assume you have a life and interests outside of the operations of Scale Miniatures?
And it's on the second point that you hang yourself! You realise that posting on here does not equate to asking the company questions. You show me some correspondence between you and Scale Miniatures and I'll lend you my ear, but all you're doing is slating them on a public forum you know they don't frequent. So why not give it a rest? We've heard your points what more is there to say?
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Post by: Yodhrin
Delephont making accusations of ranting? Physician, heal thyself....
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Post by: Delephont
Yodhrin making a useless statement that adds nothing to the discussion = normality, who knew?
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Post by: David Clarke
In the nicest possible way I thought this kickstarter fell apart due to the owners inability to answer simple questions in english in a timely fashion. If they want people to go out on a limb and invest in their products, they needed to try harder and learn how to interact with the non-spanish speaking portions of the community. I don't see why repeating the questions that were answered unsatisfactorily previously in this period of build up to the kickstarter relaunch is getting peoples backs up. Surely the first step in building an effective relaunch of a previously tainted brand should be in getting these questions answered, to clear the negativity and suggestions of incompetence swept away before asking folks to part with their cash?
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Post by: Artemis Black
Delephont wrote: Artemis Black wrote:
Where did i say I sincerely wanted to help Scale Games?
Generally asking a company questions
Well with regards to the first part, you keep saying that your ranting is in the best interests of you as a consumer and retailer. So if you consider yourself a potential consumer and/or retailer then I would assume you want a good product, if you feel the product is being misrepresented, then you must LOGICALLY want to help them in order to help yourself......its called a logical extrapolation!
*laugh* Wow, ok, not quite the definition of logical I would use but suuure.
Delephont wrote:So, that was me giving you the benefit of the doubt. If, like you say, you have no interest in helping FF, then you can only be a vindictive troll, anyone else with no interest would state the reason once and walk away. I assume you have a life and interests outside of the operations of Scale Miniatures?
And it's on the second point that you hang yourself! You realise that posting on here does not equate to asking the company questions. You show me some correspondence between you and Scale Miniatures and I'll lend you my ear, but all you're doing is slating them on a public forum you know they don't frequent. So why not give it a rest? We've heard your points what more is there to say?
I 'hang myself' now, and with an exclamation mark no less I seem to have wandered into an old Rumpole of the Bailey episode. Perhaps later I can hoist myself by my own petard?
Anyway, you seem to have just restated the same thing you already said in very slightly different words, We already had this exact discussion earlier when I pointed it was unlikely that you would apply the same rules to yourself. I wasn't quite expecting you to prove that quite so soon though. Can I possibly just refer you to my answer from the last time you said it as I'm trying to keep my posts brief to help out the other guy.
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Post by: Delephont
 David Clarke wrote:In the nicest possible way I thought this kickstarter fell apart due to the owners inability to answer simple questions in english in a timely fashion. If they want people to go out on a limb and invest in their products, they needed to try harder and learn how to interact with the non-spanish speaking portions of the community. I don't see why repeating the questions that were answered unsatisfactorily previously in this period of build up to the kickstarter relaunch is getting peoples backs up. Surely the first step in building an effective relaunch of a previously tainted brand should be in getting these questions answered, to clear the negativity and suggestions of incompetence swept away before asking folks to part with their cash?
Absolutely, but then is this the place to pose those questions? Scale Miniatures have no presence here, so no matter how often those questions are asked, we'll never get an answer! The only people who come here are potential backers....
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Post by: Artemis Black
David Clarke wrote:In the nicest possible way I thought this kickstarter fell apart due to the owners inability to answer simple questions in english in a timely fashion. If they want people to go out on a limb and invest in their products, they needed to try harder and learn how to interact with the non-spanish speaking portions of the community. I don't see why repeating the questions that were answered unsatisfactorily previously in this period of build up to the kickstarter relaunch is getting peoples backs up. Surely the first step in building an effective relaunch of a previously tainted brand should be in getting these questions answered, to clear the negativity and suggestions of incompetence swept away before asking folks to part with their cash?
How dare you interject with reasoning and calmness, were you not made aware we are into the shooting down each other's arguments in the style of old murder mysteries stage of the game?
Please come back later with a deerstalker and some biting finger pointing or you will not be taken seriously young man!
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Post by: Delephont
Artemis Black wrote:
How dare you interject with reasoning and calmness, were you not made aware we are into the shooting down each other's arguments in the style of old murder mysteries stage of the game?
Please come back later with a deerstalker and some biting finger pointing or you will not be taken seriously young man!
Edited by RiTides
You know, how about spending the time you have wisely by fixing up that excuse you have for a retail website! Then you wouldn't feel so threatened by other companies as your sales might improve.....just a thought.
I'm sure you'll take on board my criticism, as I'm a concerned consumer.....and nothing says shady more than a poorly constructed website.
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Post by: Artemis Black
Delephont wrote: Artemis Black wrote: How dare you interject with reasoning and calmness, were you not made aware we are into the shooting down each other's arguments in the style of old murder mysteries stage of the game? Please come back later with a deerstalker and some biting finger pointing or you will not be taken seriously young man!
Aww the troll is cry becoz it gets outed..... You know, how about spending the time you have wisely by fixing up that excuse you have for a retail website! Then you wouldn't feel so threatened by other companies as your sales might improve.....just a thought. I'm sure you'll take on board my criticism, as I'm a concerned consumer.....and nothing says shady more than a poorly constructed website.
*grin* Well you're all kinds of fun. One doesn't normally give business advice to a troll therefore Ha ha! I have poked a hole in your condom of fake concern! (Am I doing this right?) More seriously though, I'm pretty certain nobody give a squirrels nuts about your weird white knighting so any chance we could go back to talking about things related to the subject of the thread and we'll all just agree to pretend you won whatever it is you wanted to win? If it'll help I'll send you a rosette.
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Post by: Talking Banana
Delephont wrote:Aww the troll is cry becoz it gets outed.....
You know, how about spending the time you have wisely by fixing up that excuse you have for a retail website! Then you wouldn't feel so threatened by other companies as your sales might improve.....just a thought.
I'm sure you'll take on board my criticism, as I'm a concerned consumer.....and nothing says shady more than a poorly constructed website.
Nothing? How about poorly written English?
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Post by: Delephont
Artemis Black wrote: Delephont wrote: Artemis Black wrote:
How dare you interject with reasoning and calmness, were you not made aware we are into the shooting down each other's arguments in the style of old murder mysteries stage of the game?
Please come back later with a deerstalker and some biting finger pointing or you will not be taken seriously young man!
Aww the troll is cry becoz it gets outed.....
You know, how about spending the time you have wisely by fixing up that excuse you have for a retail website! Then you wouldn't feel so threatened by other companies as your sales might improve.....just a thought.
I'm sure you'll take on board my criticism, as I'm a concerned consumer.....and nothing says shady more than a poorly constructed website.
*grin* Well you're all kinds of fun. One doesn't normally give business advice to a troll therefore Ha ha! I have poked a hole in your condom of fake concern!
(Am I doing this right?)
More seriously though, I'm pretty certain nobody give a squirrels nuts about your weird white knighting so any chance we could go back to talking about things related to the subject of the thread and we'll all just agree to pretend you won whatever it is you wanted to win? If it'll help I'll send you a rosette.
Apologies, I didn't mean to cause offence. I just thought, seeing as we're criticising (constructively) companies and how they represent themselves and their projects that I would offer some constructive criticism to you and your company. You are right though, that is taking this debate off topic. Would you prefer to start a new thread on the subject of Artemis Black online trading? At least you are here to offer a response to my critique, so it should be an interesting debate.
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Post by: squall018
Hey guys, I'm kind of interested in this KS. Can we talk about it instead of yelling at each other?
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Post by: JoeRugby
Hey this thread is back again...popcorn time
While I was originally interested in this product. 35mm scale ( the industry really could do with everyone going by the same standards on what sale is BTW) for human figs is too big for my collection and I'm not in the market for yet another game I won't play.
Is 28 mm (gods scale) something that can't be achieved with cad design and 3d printing technology? See the new infinity models and Warzone Resurection range.
The aliens might be a shout though, but I'd want to see some scale shots of production models before Id commit to it.
A slight tangent but in the size comparison photo it shows the dreamforge shock trooper as smaller than the marine I thought they were a mm or 2 taller?
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Post by: Artemis Black
Delephont wrote: Artemis Black wrote: Delephont wrote: Artemis Black wrote:
How dare you interject with reasoning and calmness, were you not made aware we are into the shooting down each other's arguments in the style of old murder mysteries stage of the game?
Please come back later with a deerstalker and some biting finger pointing or you will not be taken seriously young man!
Aww the troll is cry becoz it gets outed.....
You know, how about spending the time you have wisely by fixing up that excuse you have for a retail website! Then you wouldn't feel so threatened by other companies as your sales might improve.....just a thought.
I'm sure you'll take on board my criticism, as I'm a concerned consumer.....and nothing says shady more than a poorly constructed website.
*grin* Well you're all kinds of fun. One doesn't normally give business advice to a troll therefore Ha ha! I have poked a hole in your condom of fake concern!
(Am I doing this right?)
More seriously though, I'm pretty certain nobody give a squirrels nuts about your weird white knighting so any chance we could go back to talking about things related to the subject of the thread and we'll all just agree to pretend you won whatever it is you wanted to win? If it'll help I'll send you a rosette.
Apologies, I didn't mean to cause offence. I just thought, seeing as we're criticising (constructively) companies and how they represent themselves and their projects that I would offer some constructive criticism to you and your company. You are right though, that is taking this debate off topic. Would you prefer to start a new thread on the subject of Artemis Black online trading? At least you are here to offer a response to my critique, so it should be an interesting debate.
I think it's pretty obvious you didn't cause offence And sure, go ahead if ya like. It'll be a bit silly as you've got the wrong company but knock yourself out.
Now, about Fallen Frontiers...
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Post by: Delephont
Artemis Black wrote:
I think it's pretty obvious you didn't cause offence And sure, go ahead if ya like. It'll be a bit silly as you've got the wrong company but knock yourself out.
Now, about Fallen Frontiers...
So, this isn't you?
http://www.artemisblacks.com
Ok, my mistake.
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Post by: Artemis Black
Yup, that's me And by all means feel free to open a new thread where we can discuss how terrible the website for my old company is, because it really is.
Now, once you've worked out the important words in the above sentence, back to FF?
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Post by: JoeRugby
I though AB was no more, please let me know if that's not the case as I need some coat d arms paint.
But this is surely not a subject for this thread
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Post by: Alpharius
 squall018 wrote:Hey guys, I'm kind of interested in this KS. Can we talk about it instead of yelling at each other?
Yes, please!
Let's do this!
Fallen Frontiers and Scale Games made some mistakes last time around, had some missteps...
From what we've seen so far, they look to have maybe learned from this - but we'll know for sure (maybe!) in about a week!
So yes!
Back on topic here, and RULE #1!
Thanks!
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Post by: Artemis Black
Alpharius wrote: squall018 wrote:Hey guys, I'm kind of interested in this KS. Can we talk about it instead of yelling at each other?
Yes, please!
Let's do this!
Fallen Frontiers and Scale Games made some mistakes last time around, had some missteps...
From what we've seen so far, they look to have maybe learned from this - but we'll know for sure (maybe!) in about a week!
So yes!
Back on topic here, and RULE #1!
Thanks!
+1!!
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Post by: Shieldwolf Miniatures
For the material issue I believe they will try to do all resin and if they hit an X stretch-goal they will opt for PVC plastic (also because the number of minis will probably be huge). Then again they might stick to resin since they have never worked with plastic before. HIPS is out of the question since the goal with the vehicles presented last time tops several hundred thousand of pounds, but the rest is doable.
For the scale issue I'm pretty sure Scale-75 are professionals and will have various pictures from different models next to a ruler or other minis once the KS kicks in (see what I've done here? lol).
(now I think I'm going to restrain myself from further comments, I had done so in the previous thread too and commented only once it got funded, never thought it could ever UNfund, never seen it happen!).
Best of luck Scale-75, hope all works out great for everyone! *thumb up*
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Post by: Alpharius
While switching to "PVC plastic" might make sense IF this one overfunds by a lot AND they feel the need to stay firm with a delivery date, I can say that I will personally most likely unfund from it if it switches from Resin to "PVC plastic".
I'd rather they stick to 'real resin' and go with a more realistic delivery date rather than put out anything in "PVC plastic".
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Post by: Piston Honda
I wonder how many miniatures they would have to produce in resin?
I would hate to be one of the poor guys who are stuck with that.
Are they out sourcing casting to China?
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Post by: Mymearan
Pvc as a stretch goal? That's weird to say the least. Who would want pvc over resin?
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Post by: frozenwastes
Mymearan wrote:Pvc as a stretch goal? That's weird to say the least. Who would want pvc over resin?
The manufacturer
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Post by: gohkm
Alpharius wrote:While switching to "PVC plastic" might make sense IF this one overfunds by a lot AND they feel the need to stay firm with a delivery date, I can say that I will personally most likely unfund from it if it switches from Resin to "PVC plastic".
I'd rather they stick to 'real resin' and go with a more realistic delivery date rather than put out anything in "PVC plastic".
Word.
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Post by: Zond
Dammit Scale 75/ Scale Games! The ruler for the Ares figure was a good start, and I was expecting rulers next to all the basic line troopers. Then this material debate comes out again.
The worst thing is I love the look of all the figures and that's why a lot of us have strong reactions. It's not to sabotage the project (in before the Scale Games fans comments on the kickstarter) but because it could do fantastically well if they did minimal, basic bookkeeping.
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Post by: David Clarke
When the kickstarter goes up, if they put switching over to pvc plastic as a stretch goal I would urge as many of us as possible to go in and back for a single dollar so that they can be told directly and unavoidably how unacceptable it is for the majority of potential consumers. Convenience to the manufacturer means nothing if at the end of this I would end up with an inferior product in hand. Mantics adherence to the god awful stuff has made me put off any purchases from them till they get back on the hard plastics train.
Companies bringing new product to market need to be strongly disencouraged from going down this same disappointing route, is learning from the mistakes of others for personal economic advantage that hard a business skill to acquire?
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Post by: Shieldwolf Miniatures
Mymearan wrote:Pvc as a stretch goal? That's weird to say the least. Who would want pvc over resin?
To asnwer your question, if they reached "x" pledge level they could say "we switch to PVC and you get double the models now for the same money".
This hasn't stopped people from buying PVC by the shovel before, companies that stick to "real plastic" don't seem to be the norm -although some are trying. :-)
I won't be saying what I personally think of this, but I'm pretty sure a bunch of people dropping down to the $1 pledge level isn't going to be happening...
(I'm so hard trying not to comment on this thread, since it's another respected manufacturer trying to do good and I don't want to be misinterpreted. Also, some of these models are really nice I think!)
Edti: Spelling mistakes, lol :-)
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Post by: Artemis Black
I'm sure you're fine Shieldwolf, I've become the posterboy for the cheerleaders hatred so you're probably safe
I must have missed where the material became a thing again, is it just because they haven't said anoything abot it this time around?
By the close of the last KS it was the one thing they'd actually been clear about. It was proper resin and with a higher number it was HIPS.
(Ok, that did lead to comments on the feasability of those goals but that's Scale Games' problem really)
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