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Post by: AlexHolker
zreef wrote:I am backing a company I want to succeed and in return getting some models. For me its more important that the company succeeds than the models I receive.
Why do you want them to succeed, if not because they are making something you want to see made?
Restic is not a marketing buzzword, it was a response to the myriad marketing buzzwords ("spincast resin", "sprueless plastic", "plastic resin", "Finecast", "Warcast", "Trollcast") for allegedly superior plastics that don't require metal moulds.
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Post by: zreef
Of course I want to see something made, but you are assuming its only the models I care about. For me the setting, story, art, rules, mechanics, and over all direction are very important. Take GW, look at all the funky models we had in the 80s and the old GW plastics. Now we have really cool models. There are a few examples that have changed mediums and have been augmented slightly over time vs completely redone. What kept me playing warhammer fantasy battle all these years? It was not the models ... it was the core mechanics, which for the most part have not changed over the various rule sets and the background, art, and setting. I love the world.
This is why I am backing Drakerys and I am on the fence with Fallen Frontiers ... to me that setting, based on what we know so far, has me more excited. If the model casts turn out to be crap, but the game takes off I believe the models will eventually get redone in HIPS. If I get gorgeous models, but no game to use them in, they will just sit and collect dust because I wont have time / motivation to paint them. I focus my painting on games that I play. I play games whose mechanics I like and whose world I love. My two favorite games are Infinity and warhammer battle. I enjoy some warmachine, but I just for some reason cannot get into the world very much so I find myself unmotivated to keep painting warmachine. When the game was new to me I was all about it, but it turned out to not have very much staying power for me. The rules are great and tight, but the world just does not appeal to me and I do not find myself particularly captivated by the story line.
All this is very subjective and my personal view on what I look for in games these days. This is why the material is less of a problem for me (that and i have gotten pretty good at cleaning up bad casts -- looking at you BA metal minis, looking at you).
I really hope they push more fluff and background in Fallen Frontiers and revisit the core mechanics for the game. For me this is my "deal breaker".
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Post by: RiTides
 AlexHolker wrote:
Restic is not a marketing buzzword, it was a response to the myriad marketing buzzwords ("spincast resin", "sprueless plastic", "plastic resin", "Finecast", "Warcast", "Trollcast") for allegedly superior plastics that don't require metal moulds.
From your list, finecast is much closer to traditional resin, just poorly done. Trollcast is it's own unique spincasting process (the only "spincast resin" process I know of). But the others you mention are all PVC.
Consumers are getting more informed, hopefully companies are too and learn to choose the right material for their application, or at least represent it honestly, since people know better now.
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Post by: Alpharius
The latest update:
Update #22
Jun 10 2014
Sayx Raptor
7 comments
12 likes
Sayx troops are experts at infiltration due to its Nightstalkers and receive great firepower of Vulcans ... but what happens when you need to capture objectives fast? Here Raptors come into play! Agile and swift on the battlefield used to get ahead your enemies or beat their rear. Do not miss this opportunity and add this bad boy to your army!
The Sayx Raptor is included in the COMMANDER Pledge and is also available as an Add-on.
We hope you´ll like it! Thanks.
This is becoming a very ambitious project indeed! 
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Post by: Riquende
Maybe my midlife crisis has started (early...), but I keep reading Sayx as 'Sexy'.
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Post by: AlexHolker
The Raptor seems to suffer from the same design flaw as the Raging Heroes bikes, in that the low angle of the forks for the front wheel are not conductive to actually steering the vehicle. Unless you rely entirely on differential steering like a tank does, you need to be able to angle at least some of the wheels to steer.
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Post by: edlowe
From the comments
Creator SCALE GAMES 19 minutes ago
Thanks a lot guys for your help trying to rise the amount of your pledges and recruiting more backers. We are aware of your effort and you will be rewarded. Not quite sure if tonight or tomorrow morning but soon you will have a sweet surprise.
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Post by: Zond
I sent a message asking who the potential manufacturer could be. Scale Games sent me a very friendly and polite email explaining such information was for numerous reasons internal. They ended by reassuring me their commitment to quality and apologising for any mix ups with their English, which is leaps beyond my Spanish.
It was worth a shot. :-P
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Post by: Alpharius
Well, we're pretty sure it isn't WGF, which is too bad really.
I do wonder where it will be though, and I hope it matches WGF's quality too!
Also:
Creator SCALE GAMES 32 minutes ago
Incoming good news, stay alert 
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Post by: edlowe
New stretch goal.
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Post by: Nostromodamus
Looks like they're taking a leaf out of Privateer Press' KS and having a dual-faction character?
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Post by: edlowe
He's a characters who gets converted in one of their background stories on the offical site.
In othe news they've just confirmed they plan to make the vehicles in the same material as the figures
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Post by: Alpharius
Vehicles are confirmed in HIPs?!?
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Post by: edlowe
Charlie St Clair 25 minutes ago
@Scale, will the vehicles be made in the same material as the minis?
Creator SCALE GAMES 19 minutes ago
@Charlie St Clair Yes, thats the idea.
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Post by: Artemis Black
Holy gak! So now 4 vehicles will be in HIPS 'and' they are throwing free minis in between the already 'much'-shortened stretch goals.
Either some millionaire just decided FF was the next big thing or this is going to be a bloodbath come actual fulfillment time.
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Post by: Alpharius
To be fair, there might be a little 'lost in translation' there.
"Yes, thats the idea." sounds like it might mean "We're going to try to do that, if we can."
Maybe?
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Post by: Artemis Black
 Alpharius wrote:To be fair, there might be a little 'lost in translation' there.
"Yes, thats the idea." sounds like it might mean "We're going to try to do that, if we can."
Maybe?
That is becoming a bit of a go to 'get out of jail free' card "Well they're Spanish so they could mean something different".
Who knows, maybe they do have a friendly millionaire or they really have found the world's cheapest and most private plastics manufacturer?
Either way I know I've turned my pledge money into a popcorn fund for the fulfillment phase 
£1500 for new HIPS multipart figures? My guess for the next stretch goal is an airborne porcine.
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Post by: JoeRugby
 Artemis Black wrote:
Either way I know I've turned my pledge money into a popcorn fund for the fulfillment phase
.
What quality materials are you going for here? Butterkist or Pikey brand? 
And in what scale? 
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Post by: Alpharius
I feel like I should already know you, Artemis Black - have we met before?
As noted earlier, it really does feel like they've got some other major source of funding to go alonsg side the KS funds in order to be able to get all of this made in HIPs...
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Post by: Artemis Black
Alpharius wrote:I feel like I should already know you, Artemis Black - have we met before?
As noted earlier, it really does feel like they've got some other major source of funding to go alonsg side the KS funds in order to be able to get all of this made in HIPs...
No idea I run Hasslefree Miniatures if that means anything (Someone sorta mentioned it earlier int he thread)? I also used to run Artemis Black's before we closed for me to run HF.
Honestly, what are the odds of that being true and yet not being mentioned? 'We have a load of extra money to make sure we fulfill all the goals' is a huge confidence booster, you'd have to be mad not to say it loud and proud. I'd print it on t--shirts Automatically Appended Next Post:  JoeRugby wrote: Artemis Black wrote:
Either way I know I've turned my pledge money into a popcorn fund for the fulfillment phase
.
What quality materials are you going for here? Butterkist or Pikey brand?
And in what scale?
Butterkist in 40mm scale would be awesome!
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Post by: Zond
I sent another email to Scale Games enquiring as to whether or not outside funds were being added as many have noted the end rewards can not be sustained on the funds raised so far. Part of the reply I recieved was as follows:
"The owner of Scale Games was investing his own money since two years ago in this project.
A lot of money is invested in this project an the 90k amount is nothing compared with the quantity invested till now."
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Post by: Artemis Black
Zond wrote:I sent another email to Scale Games enquiring as to whether or not outside funds were being added as many have noted the end rewards can not be sustained on the funds raised so far. Part of the reply I recieved was as follows:
"The owner of Scale Games was investing his own money since two years ago in this project.
A lot of money is invested in this project an the 90k amount is nothing compared with the quantity invested till now."
Well as they have zero plastic sprues right now, that's not much help either, quite the opposite.
I would assume they just means paying for all of the digital modelling and existing artwork etc.
(I'm pretty certain nobody paid for the rules and someone just found them on a napkin under a chair at a gaming show so at least that was cheap )
Oh and the guy who was never returning to the KS comments has returned. Lasted longer than I thought to be fair.
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Post by: edlowe
Funny thing somebody just resurrected the haste games kickstarter thread for human figures. I was rather disappointed when it failed. Its inital goal was for 75k for 3 plastic sprues.
Not sure how many sprues are needed for ff and for that 90k to cover them. It would be interesting to know how much of that inital investment is left for tooling.
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Post by: Alpharius
At least he returned without any self promoting fanfare.
At this point, one more cheerleader won't cause much damage.
And Scale is now saying that there is additional substantial funding - which is good!
But I don't think they've selected a HIPs capable manufacturer yet...
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Post by: Piston Honda
Alpharius wrote:I feel like I should already know you, Artemis Black - have we met before?
As noted earlier, it really does feel like they've got some other major source of funding to go alonsg side the KS funds in order to be able to get all of this made in HIPs...
As I wa reading thatt, I had an image of David Doust popping hi head up from behind a fence with a goofy smile. Automatically Appended Next Post: Alpharius wrote:
And Scale is now saying that there is additional substantial funding - which is good!
But I don't think they've selected a HIPs capable manufacturer yet...
Where did they say this?
Why wouldn't they say that before and who is it?
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Post by: Alpharius
Right here:
Zond wrote:I sent another email to Scale Games enquiring as to whether or not outside funds were being added as many have noted the end rewards can not be sustained on the funds raised so far. Part of the reply I recieved was as follows:
"The owner of Scale Games was investing his own money since two years ago in this project.
A lot of money is invested in this project an the 90k amount is nothing compared with the quantity invested till now."
in the comments section, maybe?
I think this is good news?
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Post by: Artemis Black
Alpharius wrote:Right here:
Zond wrote:I sent another email to Scale Games enquiring as to whether or not outside funds were being added as many have noted the end rewards can not be sustained on the funds raised so far. Part of the reply I recieved was as follows:
"The owner of Scale Games was investing his own money since two years ago in this project.
A lot of money is invested in this project an the 90k amount is nothing compared with the quantity invested till now."
in the comments section, maybe?
I think this is good news?
Why? It's just past tense. Someone had to pay for everything you already see, the digital sculpting and the 3d prints and all the artowrk and scenery prototypes etc.
There's nothing there that indicates they have a couple hundred grand lying around waiting to make plastic sprues, if they did, why didn't they spend some of it already and actually 'have' some to show off. This KS would be through the roof if they did.
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Post by: Piston Honda
So the owner of scale Games has currently invested more than 90k British pounds? Or more than a 150,000 US dollars.
That is great, if true. I cannot determine if that is truth or a lie. But I can't see that money coming from profit from Scale75 alone.
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Post by: Alpharius
I want this one to do well and I want to get a lot of really nice looking HIPs miniatures from this campaign.
But I keep feeling like I'm going to have to d6 it at the end to see if I'm staying in!
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Post by: Artemis Black
 Piston Honda wrote:So the owner of scale Games has currently invested more than 90k British pounds? Or more than a 150,000 US dollars.
That is great, if true. I cannot determine if that is truth or a lie. But I can't see that money coming from profit from Scale75 alone.
I also can't see where it's gone, there's not 90k worth of sculpting and art in this kickstarter, never mind an amount so large it makes 90k 'nothing'.
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Post by: plastictrees
I'm out.
The frantic shortening and adding of stretch goals is off putting to me.
Hope it does well and I'll definitely be taking a look at retail.
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Post by: Artemis Black
I think that could be a mistake, give it another week and there'll be a stretch goal of half a dozen new HIPS sprues every 25p, all funded by a mystery billionaire.
(For the record, I'm not too proud to admit that if there 'is' a mystery billionaire making all these minis then I will actually buy a bunch *grin* Of course I will also expect them to be delivered by the aforementioned airborne porcine delivery system)
Aww, i just noticed that had your pledge been £13 more you leaving would have unfunded their last freebie at the same time. I have popcorn here, cause more apoplexy next time you leave a kickstarter dammit!
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Post by: Piston Honda
Alpharius wrote:I want this one to do well and I want to get a lot of really nice looking HIPs miniatures from this campaign.
But I keep feeling like I'm going to have to d6 it at the end to see if I'm staying in!
I want it to do well because the more competition the better. Sure some companies will die. But the best will survive.
It's just this company has been a bit lacking and delayed with information. I'm not sure if their information is reactionary to act as a pacifier which it sure seems. Or if this is quite possibly the worst ever language barrier in KS history.
I do hope they deliver everything they promise to backers, even if it takes longer than Relic Knights. Seeing backers get ripped off is a painful thing to see. The events with Torn Armour via Defiance games was disgusting.
Artemis Black wrote: Piston Honda wrote:So the owner of scale Games has currently invested more than 90k British pounds? Or more than a 150,000 US dollars.
That is great, if true. I cannot determine if that is truth or a lie. But I can't see that money coming from profit from Scale75 alone.
I also can't see where it's gone, there's not 90k worth of sculpting and art in this kickstarter, never mind an amount so large it makes 90k 'nothing'.
Assuming if true, they may have held back investing too much money in the event of a failed kickstarter.
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Post by: Artemis Black
Piston Honda wrote:Artemis Black wrote: Piston Honda wrote:So the owner of scale Games has currently invested more than 90k British pounds? Or more than a 150,000 US dollars.
That is great, if true. I cannot determine if that is truth or a lie. But I can't see that money coming from profit from Scale75 alone.
I also can't see where it's gone, there's not 90k worth of sculpting and art in this kickstarter, never mind an amount so large it makes 90k 'nothing'.
Assuming if true, they may have held back investing too much money in the event of a failed kickstarter.
Well if true, it means it's already spent. that's what the quote says. As there's not even 90k worth of stuff on show, never mind the much larger amount clearly implied, then the only way I can see it being remotely true is if they include 2 years of wages for someone to oversee the project or something?
Honestly if someone working for me spent hundreds of thousands of pounds over 2 years and handed me this I'd want to see receipts and damn fast.
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Post by: Piston Honda
Possibly more is done than they are showing, which would make sense but half the crap they said after the fact has not.
Or he is referring to all the money invested in other aspects of his business. After all, the language barrier thing...
back in my wood shop to eat more dust.
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Post by: edlowe
I've definitely still got my 'more shinys' goggle's on for now, however the small voice in my head that made me pull out of the rogue trooper ks is getting louder.
Guess with 2 weeks to go I can make up my mind then and enjoy the ride.
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Post by: insaniak
Nope, I'm calling shenanigans.
In a little over 9 months, they're going to have their miniatures resculpted for HIPS, finish writing their rules, and produce (just for the core boxed set) a minimum of 4 sprues of models, printed terrain, cards, counters, box and rulebook, and custom dice... and all for £90,000 despite only just settling on a material for their miniatures, which in all likelihood means that they don't actually have any of this production scheduled with anyone yet, at a time when we know that the plastics producers capable of decent work are all running with a severe backlog of work?
Sorry, I'm not buying it.
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Post by: Artemis Black
 insaniak wrote:Nope, I'm calling shenanigans. In a little over 9 months, they're going to have their miniatures resculpted for HIPS, finish writing their rules, and produce (just for the core boxed set) a minimum of 4 sprues of models, printed terrain, cards, counters, box and rulebook, and custom dice... and all for £90,000 despite only just settling on a material for their miniatures, which in all likelihood means that they don't actually have any of this production scheduled with anyone yet, at a time when we know that the plastics producers capable of decent work are all running with a severe backlog of work? Sorry, I'm not buying it.
All of the boosters and vehicles are unlocked already. And they're all in HIPS. So that's at least 3 times as much as you've listed needs to be done More as each new thing gets unlocked, which since they shortened the stretch goals and have started slotting in goals in between, is going to be quite a lot.
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Post by: Mymearan
Have they said anything about talking to a HIPS manufacturer or anything that would indicate that they actually know what they are talking about when they are saying "we're doing HIPS"? Or is it just wishful thinking on their part at this point?
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Post by: edlowe
Mymearan wrote:Have they said anything about talking to a HIPS manufacturer or anything that would indicate that they actually know what they are talking about when they are saying "we're doing HIPS"? Or is it just wishful thinking on their part at this point?
They've been quoted in an email, that the information about a manufacturer has to stay internal to the company. Its not been 100% clear about HIPS until recently, even then its worded in a way thats a little odd, but that could be down to the language barrier, although their english translator posts every so often.
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Post by: Alpharius
I've just about given up on the comments section for this one.
When "+1" is viewed as a viable comment...
And when the creators themselves are barely present, I'm not sure what the point is?
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Post by: edlowe
Alpharius wrote:I've just about given up on the comments section for this one.
When "+1" is viewed as a viable comment...
And when the creators themselves are barely present, I'm not sure what the point is?
I've been thinking about the ks this morning,
My main issue atm is the mystery surrounding how their going to fund all the kits. I'd rather they were honest up front and say 'the funding so far covers x number of plastic kits we need x to make the next set' or 'we have x in private funding to cover everything we've shown so far'
Not revealing your manufacturer or prior funding makes them seem very dodgy. I've never heard of a kickstarter not being upfront with this information when asked unless they had something to hide or just didn't know the costs or what was involved.
The way they keep avoiding the questions is getting very annoying, im pretty certain im pulling out now, in fact I'll do it now :(
Theres Too much faith, too little substance involved for me to feel comfortable.
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Post by: Alpharius
I think the presence of creators (usually quite active in the comments section) is what leads to the emergence of Super-Supporters who tend to drown out any voices other than those of rabid devotion.
The Super-Supporters must feel that their Special Snowflakeness will be recognized and rewarded, when in fact much of what they do is quite detrimental to a successful campaign and building a good community around the project...
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Post by: cincydooley
Unless one can don the role of "Super-Antagonist". I may have done that on a project or two.......
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Post by: Alpharius
There's a lot of calls for "Faith" and "Trust" that seem to fly in the face of "Reality" and "Experience".
I'm not sure what Scale Games has done to warrant so much 'faith' and 'trust', but it doesn't seem to include a lot of "35mm" miniatures in HIPs.
Again, for the record, I hope that they can pull it all off - it would be great, and I'm for painting larger scale miniatures!
A little more 'transparency' now would be helpful though.
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Post by: cincydooley
Alpharius wrote:There's a lot of calls for "Faith" and "Trust" that seem to fly in the face of "Reality" and "Experience".
I'm not sure what Scale Games has done to warrant so much 'faith' and 'trust', but it doesn't seem to include a lot of "35mm" miniatures in HIPs.
Again, for the record, I hope that they can pull it all off - it would be great, and I'm for painting larger scale miniatures!
A little more 'transparency' now would be helpful though.
Pretty much summarizes why it's only on my watch list so far.
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Post by: basement.dweller
AlexHolker wrote:The Raptor seems to suffer from the same design flaw as the Raging Heroes bikes, in that the low angle of the forks for the front wheel are not conductive to actually steering the vehicle. Unless you rely entirely on differential steering like a tank does, you need to be able to angle at least some of the wheels to steer.
In the future all roads are straight and all vehicles run on eco-friendly pullback motors
While it reminds me of Kaneda's bike, I think you are right (differential steering). It would be rough to steer a broad front wheel like that when the tread/profile
is flat as it would be akin to raising the bike when turning. While I like the general designs and art direction I feel the vehicles are toylike in their depiction.
That may however change/improve when they are actually modeled.
It should be more like this:
Or this, which actually works despite the very low angle fork:
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Post by: Artemis Black
Alpharius wrote:There's a lot of calls for "Faith" and "Trust" that seem to fly in the face of "Reality" and "Experience".
I'm not sure what Scale Games has done to warrant so much 'faith' and 'trust', but it doesn't seem to include a lot of "35mm" miniatures in HIPs.
Again, for the record, I hope that they can pull it all off - it would be great, and I'm for painting larger scale miniatures!
A little more 'transparency' now would be helpful though.
Not being able to measure their own miniatures in the first place doesn't exactly warrant much 'trust' or 'faith' and still showing the bloody 75mm minis on the front page also doesn't, one is even the next stretch goal. People think they are getting 'that' mini.
By all accounts their paint is good, and the quality of their 75mm resin minis is good. But that's like me starting a kickstarter for laser cut scenery and pointing at the quality of Hasslefree's metal minis as some kind of proof I'll be awesome at it.
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Post by: edlowe
While I may have dropped my pledge im still interested in this ks and where Scale take it.
from the comments, seems interesting
Creator SCALE GAMES 20 minutes ago
Tadgie: The workload is now very large for our team. We always try to respond to all questions in the minimum time possible. We take very seriously any questions and we like to give a precise answer. Since we are a small company and we have to divide the work also have to divide up the hours to answer all the questions that come to us. My name is Jose Luis and I am responsible for social networks as well as to help Elias (our project manager) with some details of game rules and scenarios. Unfortunately for me, but I have some information on the materials to work, I do not know the exact details of the manufacture. in any case I can inform you that sooner than later we will send a statement reporting on these issues of great concern to our community
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Post by: Artemis Black
Yup, popcorn at the ready for the next round of comments.
Will it be sensible and straightforward answers? Will it include a manufacturing partner and news of how they plan on affording what is hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of plastic manufacturing with less than 80k? Will it be something to explain why after 2 years of production, the rules of their game can be written on the back of a beermat? WIll they have used some of the secret millionaires money to have finally bought a ruler?
Or will it be some vague nonsense in slightly mangled English? Perhaps new stretch goals will be unlocked each day of the week that ends in y? Perhaps all future minis will be cast in solid gold and hand delivered by strippers?
I await the next exciting episode of 'Things people say for Money'
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Post by: Necros
Artemis Black wrote:Perhaps all future minis will be cast in solid gold and hand delivered by strippers?
I'll buy that for a dollar!
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Post by: basement.dweller
Artemis Black wrote:But that's like me starting a kickstarter for laser cut scenery and pointing at the quality of Hasslefree's metal minis as some kind of proof I'll be awesome at it.
Hehe, we'll be standing outside with pitchforks if you don't deliver.
Common sense dictates that you don't promise stuff if you can't deliver because... well that leads to ruin more or less (unless your business is in the crapper already). I'd say the longer you've been in business with a good track record the more goodwill or trust you accrue, and to some degree an allowance for a mistake. In a sense I would have some faith that you wouldn't put out a subpar product regardless of the medium, but I would never buy blind. Obviously there is no guarantee, but if two companies are producing a similar product I'd go with the one I knew most about or had dealt with before.
Scale Games is acting a bit like that new player on the poker table going all in...
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Post by: Artemis Black
 basement.dweller wrote: Artemis Black wrote:But that's like me starting a kickstarter for laser cut scenery and pointing at the quality of Hasslefree's metal minis as some kind of proof I'll be awesome at it.
Hehe, we'll be standing outside with pitchforks if you don't deliver.
Common sense dictates that you don't promise stuff if you can't deliver because... well that leads to ruin more or less (unless your business is in the crapper already). I'd say the longer you've been in business with a good track record the more goodwill or trust you accrue, and to some degree an allowance for a mistake. In a sense I would have some faith that you wouldn't put out a subpar product regardless of the medium, but I would never buy blind. Obviously there is no guarantee, but if two companies are producing a similar product I'd go with the one I knew most about or had dealt with before.
Scale Games is acting a bit like that new player on the poker table going all in...
That is the issue at hand, and why I stuck my nose in in the first place. The larger the Kickstarter that fails to deliver the more people get burned by yet another Kickstarter and don't throw in for the next one, which might be mine. Hell, even as a consumer they might not throw in for the next one I'm backing and cost me a free stretch goal or even funding at all for something I wanted to own.
So these guys have ow made huge promises, which it seems impossible to deliver without massive outside funding or a new source of plastics manufacturing that none of us in the industry have even heard of. What happens next is something I'm now invested in as both a fellow manufacturer and a consumer.
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Post by: edlowe
Artemis Black wrote: basement.dweller wrote: Artemis Black wrote:But that's like me starting a kickstarter for laser cut scenery and pointing at the quality of Hasslefree's metal minis as some kind of proof I'll be awesome at it.
Hehe, we'll be standing outside with pitchforks if you don't deliver.
Common sense dictates that you don't promise stuff if you can't deliver because... well that leads to ruin more or less (unless your business is in the crapper already). I'd say the longer you've been in business with a good track record the more goodwill or trust you accrue, and to some degree an allowance for a mistake. In a sense I would have some faith that you wouldn't put out a subpar product regardless of the medium, but I would never buy blind. Obviously there is no guarantee, but if two companies are producing a similar product I'd go with the one I knew most about or had dealt with before.
Scale Games is acting a bit like that new player on the poker table going all in...
That is the issue at hand, and why I stuck my nose in in the first place. The larger the Kickstarter that fails to deliver the more people get burned by yet another Kickstarter and don't throw in for the next one, which might be mine. Hell, even as a consumer they might not throw in for the next one I'm backing and cost me a free stretch goal or even funding at all for something I wanted to own.
So these guys have ow made huge promises, which it seems impossible to deliver without massive outside funding or a new source of plastics manufacturing that none of us in the industry have even heard of. What happens next is something I'm now invested in as both a fellow manufacturer and a consumer.
When industry experts are saying it's improbable that they can fullfill this ks, it really sets off alarms. 
On the plus side I've been reminded to put in another order with hasselfree plus I can save some cash for the next ks. Bad ks don't put me of backing others I've been lucky that I've only backed one I regret and have dodged the bullet twice by pulling out early.
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Post by: Janthkin
Enough with the off-topic digression. If you're not discussing the kickstarter, you shouldn't be discussing it in this thread at all.
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Post by: Alpharius
I think that most (all?) in this thread want this KS Campaign to deliver high quality HIPs miniatures for a living, breathing 'continuing past the campaign' game system.
There are just some misgiving here over some of the goals, and how SG is going to reach them.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
This thread is quite good - people are allowed to have whatever opinion they want, and as long as they stay within the rules of this site while expressing them, everything is just fine.
Positive, negative, constructive, pom pom waving, etc. - whatever!
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Post by: edlowe
Creator SCALE GAMES 19 minutes ago
Hi everyone!
From the direction of Scale Games we want to officially clarify, due to the continued insistence of some of our backers the following issues:
1: Scale: The scale of our models has been explained on our Update # 4 ( https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/986826251/fallen-frontiers/posts/862118). It was chosen for its simplicity for both painting and playing.
Also as we have already demonstrated our models are fully compatible with many of the scenographies, bases and games currently on the market.
2: Material: As initially said, our priority is to get the best quality. That is why we did not give specific information about the material at first.
After researching and discussing with suppliers, we conclude that the best plastic material for our product is HIPS, such a big production on this material requires a huge investment especially in tooling (molds).
Therefore we decided to declare than material would be HIPS used yet without compromising the quality of the design of the figures. We do not discard any option or material or supplier.
The idea is everything to be made of the same material but we care more about quality than material and if we find that using HIPS quality is not satisfactory, we will seek other material that meets the expectations.
3: suppliers: We have different options, both Asian and European. We do not even discard the option of self-production. They all have enough quality and productivity that our project requires.
This does not mean that there are no risks, as in the processes of production, experience tells us that it is very difficult to concrete deadlines and contingencies.
We also want to clarify that we will NOT reveal any of our suppliers in public for not being dismissed any option.
4: Trust: We are a young company, but with some years of experience producing miniatures and special orders for major firms. are entrepreneurs and we really want to get this great project forward and with your help we can.
We have great professionals in the various departments of both design, painting, modeling, art, communication, production and finance. Each in its work is bringing the best of himself to reach a satisfactory conclusion. We are also backed by one of the best companies in miniatures that currently exists as it is Scale75, giving us both the human as well as financial support.
This crowdfunding campaign is intended to be a support tool to begin production of a game that in our opinion, breaks the conventional aspects both from the point of view of artistic design and gaming system.
We understand Crowdfunding as a financing tool based on the work of those that present a project and the trust placed in us by our backers. We do not understand the Crowdfunding as a “preorder tool” and we will not compromise the quality of the project for money. If we get enough support to begin production immediately through this campaign, we will do so, otherwise we will continue working to bring this project full of enthusiasm for another path because we know we are not alone and that most of you want to see this dream fulfilled as much as we do.
We have much work ahead and we know it. We are willing to do it because we trust in the product and mainly for our backers.
We have proven expertise doing things right, We will continue the good work with your trust and your support.
We hope these words finally dispel any doubts.
However our “Comunity Managers” will be at your disposal to answer any further questions on our social networks and media.
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Post by: Artemis Black
Ok, does anyone have any idea what
"2: Material: As initially said, our priority is to get the best quality. That is why we did not give specific information about the material at first.
After researching and discussing with suppliers, we conclude that the best plastic material for our product is HIPS, such a big production on this material requires a huge investment especially in tooling (molds).
Therefore we decided to declare than material would be HIPS used yet without compromising the quality of the design of the figures. We do not discard any option or material or supplier.
The idea is everything to be made of the same material but we care more about quality than material and if we find that using HIPS quality is not satisfactory, we will seek other material that meets the expectations."
actually means?
Cos it looks to be another vague answer that allows a 'get out of HIPS free' card at the end. Sometime down the line just declare HIPS to not be good enough and use the, obviously coincidentally much cheaper, other options like PVC.
(Oh and will someone who's pledged 'please' ask them to change their scale update to actually be true i.e. 5'8" not 6.8ft and 40mm+ minis are not '35mm to the eyes'.) I really don't wanna have to back the KS to say something, I tried via FB but was ignored)
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Post by: edlowe
Doesn't really give me enough knowledge to jump back in. Its Hips unless they decide its not?
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Post by: Piston Honda
from the comments by scale games
"Therefore we decided to declare than material would be HIPS used yet without compromising the quality of the design of the figures. We do not discard any option or material or supplier.
The idea is everything to be made of the same material but we care more about quality than material and if we find that using HIPS quality is not satisfactory, we will seek other material that meets the expectations."
Translation:
We say we are going to use HIPs (to stop the questioning and gain more interest) but we are really not sure at this point. We state it is in regards to quality but it really means what our fiances are.
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Post by: Bioptic
Well, again it depends on how much faith you have in Scale Games, doesn't it?
It could be a cynical excuse to get out of costly comittments to HIPS. It could be a sign that they just haven't thought things through fully, and so are going with a blanket "it'll be good, promise" statement. It could be an eventual "screw it, we can't get the undercuts to work, we're making everything from hand-spun resin".
I think it's most likely to be: "we have some kind of additional funding source we are not willing to disclose as a private company, we haven't finalised any of our negotiations with suppliers at the most basic level, so things are subject to change, we realise that this route is going to take a ton of money, but we're anticipating that and please don't think that our first priority is going to be cutting costs."
I do trust them, but I can easily see why others might not - the track record isn't there, the funding doesn't quite add up for HIPS (despite being a very healthy amount - it's getting on for half of Kings of War's final total, and the models/rewards didn't really add up for that either!). I do think that they are genuine and passionate about the project, and that the worry is over naivety rather than calculated misrepresentation.
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Post by: Alpharius
Just when I was feeling better about this one...
#2 and #3 above just pulled the rug out from under me!
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Post by: insaniak
Uh, no, they demonstrated that their models look silly on the two most common current terrain sets on the market.
2: Material: As initially said, our priority is to get the best quality. That is why we did not give specific information about the material at first.
After researching and discussing with suppliers, we conclude that the best plastic material for our product is HIPS, such a big production on this material requires a huge investment especially in tooling (molds).
Therefore we decided to declare than material would be HIPS used yet without compromising the quality of the design of the figures. We do not discard any option or material or supplier.
The idea is everything to be made of the same material but we care more about quality than material and if we find that using HIPS quality is not satisfactory, we will seek other material that meets the expectations.
So... we said that we would go with HIPS, but we'll probably go with resin instead when it turns out that the models have to be completely resculpted from scratch for HIPS production, and that nobody is available to cast them within our project timeframe anyway...
3: suppliers: We have different options, both Asian and European. We do not even discard the option of self-production. They all have enough quality and productivity that our project requires.
Which would seem to translate into: We don't have a supplier locked in yet. So HIPS within 9 months is not happening.
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Post by: Artemis Black
Yeah an announcement filled with the same kind of vague non answers hasn't helped them at all.
£500 down immediately and they have now unfunded that last stretch goal.
I'm still totally convinced this'll overfund considerably. I just don't believe the 'considerably' to be anywhere near enough for what they are claiming, or rather what they are 'sort of' claiming but actually being wishy washy about. Therefore I am worried about yet more people being out of the funding pool in the future. After so many Kickstarter failures in one way or another that group of 'never again' people is growing by the month :(
As a consumer I prefer much more straightforward answers. I'd be totally fine with a "We will use the best quality materials we can afford at the time, if that turns out to be PVC then it will be the best PVC we can source, if we get more money we will upgrade accordingly". Some people are happy with the various PVC/Restic/PU/whatever.
I also wouldn't mind a "Oh and by the way, we bought a ruler, turns out nothing is 35mm to the eye after all, sorry about that"
Make £500k on an honest and straightforward kickstarter and I'll merrily shake your hand and enquire about trade terms. Have a Kickstarter filled with misleading terms and wishy washy non answers and I've had enough.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Someone mentioned it in the comments section and it got me thinking.
You could possibly fulfill this in metal. You wouldn't make any money but based on the amount of money they have versus what they'd have to produce it's squeakily doable maybe. The biggest problem is the size of the minis for metal, but if you brought metal production in house it could possibly be done imo.
I wouldn't wanna be the guy who has to cast the 40 thousand or so multipart giant metal models but if you just go by wages for a couple casters, some casting machines and the cost of metal you could possibly squeak it?
(Proper resin is out of the question, unless they bring it in house and work for free for months on end)
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Post by: Riquende
There's some serious 'ostriching' going on in the comments...
What a great wrap up to the material debate. Thank you for your hard work. Love the game and the scale.
Wrap it up by leaving it vague and open?
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Post by: Alpharius
That's weird isn't it?
Especially as AB mentioned - they basically gave themselves a "Get out of HIPs Free" card with point #2!
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Post by: RiTides
I don't know why this is getting so much attention other than the fact that it's drama.
From the update text above, they clearly have now clarified/changed their position that they are NOT committed to HIPS. That means it's not going to happen. You have to know so far ahead of time if you want to use HIPS, or have such heavy resources to convert models to be castable in that material, that it's not even funny.
So, it's back to their having no idea what they will make the models from. Maybe it'll just be PVC? Regardless, I think this campaign shouldn't get so much press anymore, they are clearly in over their heads.
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Post by: Alpharius
 RiTides wrote:I don't know why this is getting so much attention other than the fact that it's drama.
From the update text above, they clearly have now clarified/changed their position that they are NOT committed to HIPS. That means it's not going to happen. You have to know so far ahead of time if you want to use HIPS, or have such heavy resources to convert models to be castable in that material, that it's not even funny.
So, it's back to their having no idea what they will make the models from. Maybe it'll just be PVC? Regardless, I think this campaign shouldn't get so much press anymore, they are clearly in over their heads.
Not sure if serious?
It seems you figured out exactly why this is getting increased attention...
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Post by: RiTides
Totally serious- I'm saying, now that they've clarified they really have no idea, I would think the attention would drop off.
For myself, I felt the same way about Gates of Antares. Once it became clear they had little to no plan, I stopped tracking it. But the thread would continue to get bumped by people speculating what their possible plans could be... however, in my case, once it's clear they have no plan, I'm really not interested.
In other words I wish this one would get less attention so that other things that have actual news would get more attention, when this one seems to be getting it due to LACK of news (again, similar to Gates of Antares before it... which eventually got less attention, as I'm sure this one will as well).
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Post by: Artemis Black
RiTides wrote:I don't know why this is getting so much attention other than the fact that it's drama.
From the update text above, they clearly have now clarified/changed their position that they are NOT committed to HIPS. That means it's not going to happen. You have to know so far ahead of time if you want to use HIPS, or have such heavy resources to convert models to be castable in that material, that it's not even funny.
So, it's back to their having no idea what they will make the models from. Maybe it'll just be PVC? Regardless, I think this campaign shouldn't get so much press anymore, they are clearly in over their heads.
I am partly to blame. In the past I haven't really paid much attention to Kickstarters other than ones I have a professional interest in. I've only backed one and I realised that a good part of that was what i mentioned above, horror stories of prior Kickstarters. Taking forever to fulfill, end product being nothing like what was shown in the KS whether that be because sculpts didn't match up to the artwork, materials used left much to be desired or whatever.
So I started taking more of an interest, especially as I have a vested interest in using the platform myself in the future. This one came across my path in a good way, via the blue painted Ares guy. Without any context I was shown it as a 35mm mini and I was instantly interested both professionally and as a consumer.
The more I looked, the more questions I had and themore questions I had the more I disliked the answers. I then replied to a thread in a big FB minis group and that got a bit heated, in a similar way to the pre-moderation of here. Accusations of jealousy etc. I got tired of repeating myself so put all my info in a thread on a forum I'm a part of (it's linked earlier in this thread). Because I now had this thread with my name on it people kept asking me things via pm on FB and other forums. So I figured why not get out there and get properly involved.
Had this happened previous I might very well be in similar discussions about any of those other Kickstarters mentioned as examples of disasters, it's nothing personal against this company or Kickstarter. In my research I've found that way too many Kickstarters get away with stuff like this. Just claiming things with no real way of anyone challenging them and KS comments are filled with mindless cheerleading. That's kind of weird to me. We use FB as a primary marketing tool and I directly answer any questions we get about stuff, privately or publically, as straightforwardly as I can. If I see false information on a blog or a forum about anything to do with product I do the same.
Kickstarter has serioulsy changed a lot of things about our industry, in good ways and bad. Things that would likely never have been made are now happily in people's hands, people who would never have got their ideas realised are now happy. But on the flip side so many people have bought things that they consider to be crap and feel like they've been conned. And for the most part they feel that way because there was no other viewpoints readily available, they were told things in marketing speak and only saw 'Yay, everything is amazing' type comments on the KS page. Why wouldn't they think so?
People need to start speaking up when they see something questionable. If it's legit they'll soon get an answer for their concerns, if it isn't then good for them, they might have saved someone some hard earned cash.
Sorry for being long winded, I do think that most of the stuff being said has already been said so in that I agree with you. In part that's why the odd comment from me is just a sarcastic jab. I don't see any real harm though in continuing just the single thread. I am actually still interested in watching it unfold
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Post by: Piston Honda
RiTides wrote:I don't know why this is getting so much attention other than the fact that it's drama.
From the update text above, they clearly have now clarified/changed their position that they are NOT committed to HIPS. That means it's not going to happen. You have to know so far ahead of time if you want to use HIPS, or have such heavy resources to convert models to be castable in that material, that it's not even funny.
So, it's back to their having no idea what they will make the models from. Maybe it'll just be PVC? Regardless, I think this campaign shouldn't get so much press anymore, they are clearly in over their heads.
With a number of kickstarters delivering questionable quality, and possibly more on the way, the center piece of this problem is the material called Restic or if you want to be picky PVC, as you know RiTides, my dear Brother.
SG has yet to be firm on any material choice. It's like asking a kid what toy they want at the toy store.
At first it was HIPS but they reserve the right to change the material to Metal or Resin if they did not get enough funds.
They never declared the target goal for this to happen.
When asked repeatedly they gave vague answers including flirting with the choice of Restic PVC.
Then out of the blue they said it WILL be HIPs plastic. When the prior claim from them was it will be HIPs plastic depending on how much they raised. Again, they never said how much was needed, but obviously was more than 90k, and currently they are only a couple of K above that.
Today, they have played the escape card saying they will use HIPs unless they find material does not suit their desired outcome.
In short they have no ultimate answer. When it comes to manufacturing, They are a blind man riding on a horse guessing where they are, at this point of the Kickstarter.
Lack of honesty and emphatic decisions being towed by disastrous prior kickstarters is what is causing such attention to this.
There is some overt pious bleed among the backers. It is one thing to be a fan boy of a company and love new releases and think everything is great. But this is a company that, at this level, is untested. And every comment they make or a comment someone else makes in support of FF yields a wall of +1s. It's like reading comments from a yahoo news article.
I don't want to back this thinking I am getting HIPS, then 6 months after, they give a BS reason to change material when in reality, the choice of material was picked a long time ago.
They made it so there is no accountability on their end, making it difficult to ask for a refund or reporting them to KS.
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Post by: Pilgrim_uk
Alpharius is right about the lack of participation sometimes. It was good at the start but has kind of trailed off now. Since its a team I imagine its not always the same people who participate on the comments section. Which you can lose the flow of a comments section if you have different people. Having more video sessions like the one with Beeble babble was a good start but keeping up creator/backer participation like Jeremy from creature caster did would be even better.
Some things do concern me though but also understand its having faith/assessing risk in the campaign. (Just like Figone's Rocco backing only on art alone) Although struggle to think how they can sustain the £2 per High quality mini at the commander pledge(186 + 4 vehicles) . Which I already mentioned on the comments so did others If I remember. Since there is no sign of resin I will probably be out before the end as I'm not that interested in boardgames anymore with plastic mini's. Having a duplication of figures like JWOD did satisfying both the collector/painter and the gamer would bring in more backers probably.
Like many others here I'm in it to see how it goes to the end. Whether it crash and burns or comes through I don't know but my spidey sense says to back out with the hand I'm being played.
Personally I think Scale games are in for a lot of hurt, hard work and sleepless nights at this rate. (based on a total 0 knowledge of the industry)
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Post by: yakface
The mere fact that this company refers to still being able to 'decide upon' making their models in HIPS at a later date is a huge red flag to me.
You cannot simply take an existing design/sculpt and decide to make it in HIPS without, in almost all cases, having to chop that model up into a billion little pieces to make it able to be cast in HIPS. If you want to cast in HIPS, you need to start down that road from the ground-up or go through extensive resculpting to make existing designs work for a HIPS mold.
And the amount of demand out there for companies able to take designs and create HIPS molds far outstrips the actual supply of such companies right now…so that means getting the designs for the tooling made not only takes a lot of money (as everyone knows) but it also takes a tremendous amount more time than it takes to get models made in other materials.
So a company that has not decided whether they are going to cast in HIPS or another material cannot realistically give a time frame for delivery, because it will change drastically depending on what type of material they end up using…that they don't seem to acknowledge this fact while simultaneously still saying that HIPS is a potential candidate is very, very troubling to me.
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Post by: basement.dweller
Hey Pilgrim
Yeah I dropped my pledge. I don't feel there is a point to reiterate the reasons as you listed the same ones basically.
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Post by: willb2064
I'm out, that last update was ridiculous. "Here are all the concerns everyone has pointed out. Here is how we continue to skirt around them".
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Post by: edlowe
This definitely goes to show how important preplanning in a kickstarter is along with a nearly full time project manager to be there and have the answer to backers questions.
you would have thought by now that there would have been enough failures and successes for people to realise this before jumping in and launching there ks.
if scale had taken the time to have everything planned out material wise and had a produ tion slot/ manufacturer ready to go once funded it would have made life much easier for them.
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Post by: Pilgrim_uk
Hey BD
Yeah wondered where you went.
If it was the same mini's they printed in the pictures and it was a more smaller scale campaign just like the first kickstarter then I would think it would be more successful. Also would be more suited to me but I cant have everything.
I'm also wondering is a lot being lost in translation?
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Post by: Caballero Negro
So what Pilgrim? you are in or out?
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Post by: Pilgrim_uk
I'm in to the very end as I want to see how it turns out. Hoping something will turn up like that mysterious millionaire backer and some resin.
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Post by: AlexHolker
 yakface wrote:The mere fact that this company refers to still being able to 'decide upon' making their models in HIPS at a later date is a huge red flag to me.
You cannot simply take an existing design/sculpt and decide to make it in HIPS without, in almost all cases, having to chop that model up into a billion little pieces to make it able to be cast in HIPS. If you want to cast in HIPS, you need to start down that road from the ground-up or go through extensive resculpting to make existing designs work for a HIPS mold.
While I agree this is a huge "run away screaming" red flag, I'd say that casting in PVC well would require the same chopping up. The difference is only that half-assing the PVC mould leaves you with warped and torn miniatures that an unscrupulous manufacturer can still foist off on their customers, while half-assing the HIPS mould leaves you with a jammed machine.
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Post by: Alpharius
RhodeIslandTides - well, if this thread has become too bothersome, there's always that 'don't click on it option'! I can't speak for everyone, but my reserves of "attention" can certainly encompass a few wishy washy unclear Kickstarter campaigns, especially if I'm interested in them!
Pilgrim - Welcome to Dakka Dakka! I too was hoping to at least see them commit to 'real resin' as a fallback. They still may. But if PVC is even a possibility by the end, I'll be dropping my pledge down to the minimum and then waiting until retail.
Yakface - Well, I think they've just about admitted that it WON'T be HIPs at this point, but don't want to come right out and say it, as maybe it still has a slight chance of happening? And if they do admit it...
Well, the Kicktraq for this one is showing that the latest "Clear It Up" Update did anything but:
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Post by: Artemis Black
Alpharius wrote:Pilgrim - Welcome to Dakka Dakka! I too was hoping to at least see them commit to 'real resin' as a fallback. They still may. But if PVC is even a possibility by the end, I'll be dropping my pledge down to the minimum and then waiting until retail.
If they announced it was proper resin I'd still have concerns. Even if they funded at this level, without the last minute spike you regularly see in Kickstarters, that's 30-40 'thousand' large scale minis. High quality resin is the most expensive of the major casting methods 'per unit'. I've mentioned it before but to fulfill something on this scale for that money you'd have to do it all in house and it'd take a 'long' time just to make all the moulds and cast everything and you'd likely end up losing money and working for free for months.
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Post by: edlowe
if I hadn't already pulled out due to production concerns the comments on the ks now would have definitely made me quit.
Scale games should step in before somebody has an full on breakdown.
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Post by: Zond
I'm happy to stay currently. It's not my intention to provoke anyone but it seems that questions cause some backers to snap. It is edging closer to a wait for retail situation for myself however.
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Post by: Piston Honda
 edlowe wrote:if I hadn't already pulled out due to production concerns the comments on the ks now would have definitely made me quit.
Scale games should step in before somebody has an full on breakdown.
it's about to happen.
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Post by: Alpharius
So at this point, it really is looking like PVC here then?
This one is in danger of pulling a "THON" (which went into free fall over scale concerns, not materials!) and backsliding badly.
It might become "Falling Frontiers" soon, if they're not careful.
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Post by: Piston Honda
Alph,quick, just start +1ing every thing, you'll be one of the cool kids!
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Post by: Pilgrim_uk
Pfft Alpharius here 3 months and only now you are saying hello cheers though
Indeed that is saddening on the kicktraq as I was big fan of this in the beginning. Agree about the comments section though. oh dear.
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Post by: Alpharius
Pilgrim - Sorry for the delayed welcome!
I guess we never crossed paths until now!
If I was Scale Games, I'd ask a few of the more vocal cheerleaders to relax and take a few days off.
At this point, like 17 days off.
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Post by: plastictrees
That J.R. guy seems to genuinely think that there are no valid concerns, only the machinations of a cabal of evil anti-backers who are trying to undermine the project because it's the only way that they can feel anything any more.
Bananas.
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Post by: Zond
I think Scale Games might need to calm us restless natives by smacking us all down indiscriminately with the answer stick of doom.
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Post by: yakface
Alpharius wrote:So at this point, it really is looking like PVC here then?
This one is in danger of pulling a "THON" (which went into free fall over scale concerns, not materials!) and backsliding badly.
It might become "Falling Frontiers" soon, if they're not careful.
Thon started backsliding when they were well below funding goal. This KS is already at it's funding goal, so even if they backslide a bit more (and go under their funding goal), the bump that always occurs at the end of every KS campaign will undoubtedly mean this project will get funded.
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Post by: edlowe
Zond wrote:I think Scale Games might need to calm us restless natives by smacking us all down indiscriminately with the answer stick of doom.
Well they've just answered 1 question, guess they were there in the background all along?
They really need to sort out this mess before people lose money.
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Post by: Artemis Black
yakface wrote: Alpharius wrote:So at this point, it really is looking like PVC here then?
This one is in danger of pulling a "THON" (which went into free fall over scale concerns, not materials!) and backsliding badly.
It might become "Falling Frontiers" soon, if they're not careful.
Thon started backsliding when they were well below funding goal. This KS is already at it's funding goal, so even if they backslide a bit more (and go under their funding goal), the bump that always occurs at the end of every KS campaign will undoubtedly mean this project will get funded.
Thon funded at $35k, it only started backsliding after they passed $50k. It just backslid so hard and fast that it was about to drop below it's funding goal when it was cancelled.
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Post by: yakface
Artemis Black wrote:
Thon funded at $35k, it only started backsliding after they passed $50k. It just backslid so hard and fast that it was about to drop below it's funding goal when it was cancelled.
I stand corrected! 
My poor memory must have confused details of the Thon KS with that of Gates of Antares.
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Post by: Artemis Black
edlowe wrote:Zond wrote:I think Scale Games might need to calm us restless natives by smacking us all down indiscriminately with the answer stick of doom.
Well they've just answered 1 question, guess they were there in the background all along?
They really need to sort out this mess before people lose money.
Is there much they can do at this point? It seems like they are just trying to avoid saying 'We don't actually know', if they came out and said that it wouldn't exactly assuage concerns.
By not being clear at the start they've set themselves up for a fall.
And their FAQ and updates still say the same 2 incorrect things about the bloody scale! 6.8ft when it's supposed to be 5.8ft or 5'10" and "35mm to the eyes" when no 40mm mini is 35mm to the eyes unless they have the world's biggest forehead. They even repeated it earlier tonight, it's mental.
'And' the FAQ still says of the material "The material will be HIPS (High Impact Polystyrene) but some items (vehicles for example) can be cast in PU resin."
Automatically Appended Next Post:
yakface wrote: Artemis Black wrote:
Thon funded at $35k, it only started backsliding after they passed $50k. It just backslid so hard and fast that it was about to drop below it's funding goal when it was cancelled.
I stand corrected!
My poor memory must have confused details of the Thon KS with that of Gates of Antares.
Ahh yeah, Antares had almost no hope with that funding goal and started bleeding long far below their goal.
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Post by: edlowe
Creator SCALE GAMES 17 minutes ago
Guys I would ask that discussions about issues that have been already resolved are dealt within other media, we have opened a forum (as some of our Backers had pointed out ) where we can keep all kind of conversations. as you also mentioned in these comments, this section is one of the most direct source of information for all those newcomers, and filling with a dialectical battle will not benefit anyone.
Thanks for your understanding
Automatically Appended Next Post: All issues are resolved! This is great news!
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Post by: Zond
Alpharius, you +1 dog. Now you're too cool. I believe you need to rage quit, return and belive in a cult that keep good games down.
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Post by: Alpharius
Artemis Black wrote: edlowe wrote:Zond wrote:I think Scale Games might need to calm us restless natives by smacking us all down indiscriminately with the answer stick of doom.
Well they've just answered 1 question, guess they were there in the background all along? They really need to sort out this mess before people lose money.
Is there much they can do at this point? It seems like they are just trying to avoid saying 'We don't actually know', if they came out and said that it wouldn't exactly assuage concerns.
Agreed! They seem to be working really, really hard to avoid saying "We don't know!" when it appears to be the truth here. This was...disappointing: Creator SCALE GAMES 5 minutes ago
Guys I would ask that discussions about issues that have been already resolved are dealt within other media, we have opened a forum (as some of our Backers had pointed out ) where we can keep all kind of conversations. as you also mentioned in these comments, this section is one of the most direct source of information for all those newcomers, and filling with a dialectical battle will not benefit anyone.
Thanks for your understanding
Have any of the core issues actually been resolved? Someone else might want to point that out. I'm quite sick of the cheerleaders in there bashing anyone who doesn't tow the line 100%... Automatically Appended Next Post: Zond wrote:Alpharius, you +1 dog. Now you're too cool. I believe you need to rage quit, return and belive in a cult that keep good games down.
I couldn't resist - plus I really do appreciate "Kevin" and "Blaster" trying to calmly present the 'other side' of this 'debate'.
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Post by: Piston Honda
Looks like batman just got his side kick robin in the comments.
I feel like joining in this kickstarter again just to jump in the comments.
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Post by: Alpharius
Yeah, the Special Snowflake Super Supporters are having a real blast in there.
It doesn't seem very respectful or considerate, does it?
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Post by: Piston Honda
Alpharius wrote:Yeah, the Special Snowflake Super Supporters are having a real blast in there.
It doesn't seem very respectful or considerate, does it?
Just wait until they type in all caps!
Dear lord have mercy on your soul child!
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Post by: Zond
I can't believe I'm still in these comments, it just keeps pulling me back. I love the models, I just want answers
A kickstarter gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until campaign end. I am the sword of truth in the comments. I am the watcher for the updates. I am the shield that guards the wallets of Dakka. I pledge my life and honor to the Restic Knights, for this project and all the and all the projects to come.
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Post by: Alpharius
+1 to Kevin Johnston!
Kevin Johnston 11 minutes ago
"Therefore we decided to declare than material would be HIPS used yet without compromising the quality of the design of the figures. We do not discard any option or material or supplier."
HIPS has been announced to the backers as we were all joyfully aware. However no material is being discarded as an option. Everything is on the table presumably.
Forgive me for belabouring a point and perhaps I'm having a very dense moment and misunderstanding what Scale Games are attempting to say, but that's not an answer to me. If every material and supplier is an option, then how can anything be finalised?
Creator SCALE GAMES 4 minutes ago
Kevin: As we announced a few hours ago, there will be no additional information on these topics today. But do not worry, as soon as we can give you an answer that satisfies your curiosity'll let you know.
Soon, I hope.
Right now, today stands at -11 backers and -1500 GBP.
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Post by: Yonan
This KS shows that people are more aware of the potential pitfalls now which is good, and will azazelx their pledge if the right guarantees aren't made or if it looks like the plan isn't fully thought through.
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Post by: Mymearan
Yeah I'm out. The people running the campaign seem to be indignant over the fact that people won't let them get away with saying "We won't give you any answers about miniature quality, but we promise we want it to be good!".
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Post by: Riquende
Weirdly, despite the backsliding both funding and backers, Kicktraq has this at #2 in 'Today's Top Ten' (up 17 places).
So I guess congrats?
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Post by: Artemis Black
Wow. A rout seems to have started. I guess people really are paying proper attention.
The comment crazies clearly haven't realised they aren't helping at all either.
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Post by: Lovejoy
They're less than a grand away from un-funding at the moment... this'll be interesting to follow!
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Post by: monders
Reading through this little lot, I keep picturing Chris Walken saying something like "Heyy, yous guys. I need a HIPS replacement!"
?!?!
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Post by: richred_uk
Pablo Lopez Jimeno wrote:the miniatures are absolutely great (even the gray unpainted ones)
Anybody fancy explaining the difference between renders and miniatures?
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Post by: Riquende
Andy Marshall wrote:
By not having all the money already in the bank, SG actually need a more realistic goal to actually fund the whole project, they dont have the financial backing of CMon etc and actually need people to believe in the project... which is the whole point of KSs - there is risk - I think we've grown too accustomed to the big budget approach.
Someone missed the part where Scale said they already had loads of money in the bank (more than the funding currently is).
I almost feel sorry for the backers on this, they clearly aren't paying attention to what Scale are showing/telling them, and mostly at this point exist in an echo chamber, playing games of 'who can say how much they love Scale/ FF the most'.
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Post by: willb2064
richred_uk wrote:Pablo Lopez Jimeno wrote:the miniatures are absolutely great (even the gray unpainted ones)
Anybody fancy explaining the difference between renders and miniatures?
I believe that would considered trolling, and part of a wider conspiracy to make the project fail.
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Post by: Riquende
Reading back through some of the comments, I wonder now if there is some shady agency you can go to to get these cheerleaders? I know that organisations (political entities, lobbyists, corporations) can commission people to go on forums and spread 'the good word' (usually by making opponents look bad), and that video game publishers seem to have a supply of friends to give them good reviews on Steam etc.
If I had 90K to spare it would be theirs to get this going, that is how much I believe in these guys and project...
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Post by: zedmeister
I can't get over the comments section. It's like watching Trisha or Jeremy Springer. You know you shouldn't watch it but you can't help it.
Don't think the production material indecision or the comments are helping either:
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Post by: greywulf
I love the concepts for Fallen Frontiers but I think it's time Scale Games just took their cue. By this I mean cancel the kickstarter campaign, go back to the drawing board, and come back in a few months with an actual implementation plan and a lot more investment beyond just the concept stage. If they want big money, they're gonna have to earn it.
PS: I'm still in though I'll probably drop at the end. Sitting on an EB. Who knows, by some miracle they may actually surprise us.
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Post by: edlowe
Creator SCALE GAMES 21 minutes ago
It's´s a hard moment, we know it, but we are still working very hard (as always) to show you some gameplay and miniature quality (our miniature factory is working in some samples) We want to thank all of you that supported us with all your positive comments. For those still sceptic thanks too because criticism is helping us to improve our product.
Thanks all
well if their producing samples no way its hips, mostly likely resin samples?
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Post by: richred_uk
edlowe wrote:Creator SCALE GAMES 21 minutes ago
It's´s a hard moment, we know it, but we are still working very hard (as always) to show you some gameplay and miniature quality (our miniature factory is working in some samples) We want to thank all of you that supported us with all your positive comments. For those still sceptic thanks too because criticism is helping us to improve our product.
Thanks all
well if their producing samples no way its hips, mostly likely resin samples?
Or 3 D prints? That's what they've shown so far isn't it?
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Post by: edlowe
Creator SCALE GAMES 15 minutes ago
@Andy P We are going to show the level of quality and detail that our production team can achieve with our own tools. HIPS is still the goal of our Kickstarter but the miniatures we will show you its our actual quality.
so their showing what they currently produce for their other game?
From their previous ks:
The models will be made in PU (polyurethane resin) resin. It is the most common resin used to produce model figures.
Edit.
Creator SCALE GAMES 17 minutes agoResin production is more expensive than Hips if you forget about tooling if this ends with 700 backers or so its perfectly possible to make resin production. If we say it will be resin but ends with 2000 backers HIPS is a much cheaper option. This was the reason why we didnt set a final material for the game at first. Probably our lack of communication has ended in some kind of disbelief and this is what we want to mend. Quality its our priority. Communication its something we need to improve
This is finally what I've been waiting to hear  Maybe they should have said this at first?
So they need 700 backers for resin, 2000 for HIPS, very exact but not funding related? I would have thought they would have gone with some £ targets?
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Post by: Zond
Resin production is more expensive than Hips if you forget about tooling if this ends with 700 backers or so its perfectly possible to make resin production. If we say it will be resin but ends with 2000 backers HIPS is a much cheaper option. This was the reason why we didnt set a final material for the game at first. Probably our lack of communication has ended in some kind of disbelief and this is what we want to mend. Quality its our priority. Communication its something we need to improve
It's still lacking in detail, but finally some semblance of honest communication.
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Post by: Riquende
edlowe wrote:
So they need 700 backers for resin, 2000 for HIPS, very exact but not funding related? I would have thought they would have gone with some £ targets?
I don't think they're being exact at all - just saying that a low number of backers would mean not having to make many figures, whilst if they had to make more then it would possibly be feasible to switch to plastic, due to a lower cost per unit (and counting all the extra funds). Nothing that wasn't already known. The material question would be carefully weighted not just by money raised, but also their commitments in terms of how many figures they'll need to make for the money.
The only thing I'd take away from that update is that they've pretty much confirmed that backers are going to have to pledge without knowing what material their product will end up in, even right up until the end of the campaign.
From KS comments wrote:@Scale Games:
Thank you. That would have been a better statement for update 26. I will do what I can to try to talk some of the backers to cone back. So the word is, Resin or HIPS, and NO PVC.
Did I miss where Scale ruled out PVC? Musing about the volume of scale required to make models in two different materials isn't a guarantee they won't use a third. KS 'read what you want into the official updates, then parrot back to other backers as fact' about to go into full effect, perhaps.
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Post by: Artemis Black
So despite saying 15 completely different things what they really meant was "High quality resin or HIPS depending on funding".
30,000+ high quality resin figures plus vehicles, plus the rest of the game stuff.
Mmm hmm.
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Post by: scadianforlife
 Riquende wrote: edlowe wrote:
So they need 700 backers for resin, 2000 for HIPS, very exact but not funding related? I would have thought they would have gone with some £ targets?
I don't think they're being exact at all - just saying that a low number of backers would mean not having to make many figures, whilst if they had to make more then it would possibly be feasible to switch to plastic, due to a lower cost per unit (and counting all the extra funds). Nothing that wasn't already known. The material question would be carefully weighted not just by money raised, but also their commitments in terms of how many figures they'll need to make for the money.
The only thing I'd take away from that update is that they've pretty much confirmed that backers are going to have to pledge without knowing what material their product will end up in, even right up until the end of the campaign.
From KS comments wrote:@Scale Games:
Thank you. That would have been a better statement for update 26. I will do what I can to try to talk some of the backers to cone back. So the word is, Resin or HIPS, and NO PVC.
Did I miss where Scale ruled out PVC?
They presented two choices. X number of backers=resin, y number if backers= HIPS. I'll see if I can get them to guarantee their word.
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Post by: Riquende
 scadianforlife wrote:They presented two choices. X number of backers=resin, y number if backers= HIPS. I'll see if I can get them to guarantee their word.
I don't think they did present two choices at all.
The quote:
"Resin production is more expensive than Hips if you forget about tooling if this ends with 700 backers or so its perfectly possible to make resin production. If we say it will be resin but ends with 2000 backers HIPS is a much cheaper option. "
So what we have there is a statement that it's more expensive, per model, to make a resin figure than a plastic one (which we all know or can guess, as resin is traditionally used by boutique manufactuers for low volume runs). I think what they've said is that they reckon they can cover the minis they'd have to make in resin for about 700 backers, I can't dispute that claim as they're a resin manufacturer and will know their own costs. However, that's still open to speculation.
Then they state that if they had to make ~3 times the amount of models, it would be cheaper to do it in plastic. That's all they say. "It would be cheaper". Not "we will do it".
Incidentally, when we say cheaper here we just mean 'per model' it would cost them less to make. It doesn't necessarily make it more affordable if it involves large upfront costs for making the molds.
So they have said, paraphrasing "For a small number of figures, resin would be better. For a lot more, plastic would be more suitable, probably". There's no committment there to anything.
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Post by: Artemis Black
Ok, let's go through what they've said about the material, in order, before today, should be interesting I think...
the material will behigh quality plastic injection molding. but we do not decline using resin or metal according to the results of the KS
Any further details about materials will depend on our backers collaboration
injection plastic is our first choice , and we will NOT cast any miniature on restic
We are aware that the material is a very important factor for all of you. We are working on getting the best material without making the product more expensive and for this we need a minimum flow of production we can not yet specify (the negotiations change every day and for the better).
We want to be able to produce the vehicles in plastic but it will depend of the campaign result.
We don't know how many pieces would one normal trooper yet, because it will depend of the material but I think it can be around 4 pieces.
I want to be clear that our target is injected plastic material, but the most important thing is the quality. This is the reason why we don´t want to close other options but repeat...the target is injected plastic.
The material will be high quality plastic, perfect for painting. As we said this is the main reason why the goal is that high so please dont worry about that.
We consider GW plastic as high quality.
Our target is to produce in high quality injected plastic, but the most important thing is the quality.
Hi folks. We can make production in ABS or PVC, this is why there is no a final answer. ABS is a good material but its so hard that it's very difficult to extract some geometries from the moulds. PVC is softer and its also a good choice but there are many many variants that its difficult to say one.
But as we said ABS its an option and it doesnt depends on money. If ABS its the best quality for our miniatures ABS it will be.
Theres a huge diference between types of PVC
Hi all. The material will be HIPS (High Impact Polystyrene).
2: Material: As initially said, our priority is to get the best quality. That is why we did not give specific information about the material at first. After researching and discussing with suppliers, we conclude that the best plastic material for our product is HIPS, such a big production on this material requires a huge investment especially in tooling (molds). Therefore we decided to declare than material would be HIPS used yet without compromising the quality of the design of the figures. We do not discard any option or material or supplier. The idea is everything to be made of the same material but we care more about quality than material and if we find that using HIPS quality is not satisfactory, we will seek other material that meets the expectations.
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Post by: scadianforlife
This is why I am trying to get their written/typed guarantee. Is that ok? Or are yall going to try to argue the word "guarantee?"
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Post by: Artemis Black
scadianforlife wrote:This is why I am trying to get their written/typed guarantee. Is that ok? Or are yall going to try to argue the word "guarantee?"
They've just done better than that for ya
Resin production will be able from 90K pounds (our basic funding), as for the HIPS, it will become our material from 130K pounds onwards
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Post by: edlowe
Some £ figures!
Creator SCALE GAMES 16 minutes ago
Resin production will be able from 90K pounds (our basic funding), as for the HIPS, it will become our material from 130K pounds onwards
Edit - Ninja'd!
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Post by: Riquende
It must now be summer, because there are flip flops everywhere in that post.
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Post by: scadianforlife
Resin production will be able from 90K pounds (our basic funding), as for the HIPS, it will become our material from 130K pounds onwards
Still waiting on written guarantee.
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Post by: Zond
My badgering paid off! Not sure if it's a good answer, but I feel like I'm wading through the tides of rabid fans.
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Post by: scadianforlife
PVC is NOT an option for us.
Here ya go
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Post by: RiTides
Well, if I were a backer, that would encourage me greatly. That is, IF it stays low enough to be in the resin category. They have experience doing that... Honestly, if that was their goal they should've stated as much, and maybe limited rewards to volume they could handle.
I still think HIPS is 100% going to be a disaster if they try that route, but resin they've done, so it's a much safer bet.
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Post by: Krinsath
I'm also amused by the "if you forget tooling costs" part in their HIPS statement. I'm not an industry insider like some in this thread, but isn't the tooling cost MOST of the cost for HIPS? Isn't that statement more or less "If you ignore the cost of buying and maintaining a car, the price of gas per trip is cheaper than taking a bus"? That just seems like an odd thing to hand-wave away.
I was interested in this when I first saw the project, but the actions of the creator thus far make it highly unlikely I'll have enough trust in them to give them any money.
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Post by: Artemis Black
Well look at that, only took two weeks.
So current funding is for all 30 thousand plus minis in high quality standard resin and if they make 140k then all 80 off unique minis will be in HIPS
That should be fun to watch.
Now if you can just get them to stop pretending their mins are 35mm and change the Scale FAQ to be true I can go away for 2 weeks and come back and see what happened
(I don't care about the rules pamphlet, at least they can't pretend it's really 250 pages thick, so if people wanna say they're the greatest rules ever then it's on them not Scale75)
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Post by: scadianforlife
Artemis Black wrote:Well look at that, only took two weeks.
So current funding is for all 30 thousand plus minis in high quality standard resin and if they make 140k then all 80 off unique minis will be in HIPS
That should be fun to watch.
Now if you can just get them to stop pretending their mins are 35mm and change the Scale FAQ to be true I can go away for 2 weeks and come back and see what happened
(I don't care about the rules pamphlet, at least they can't pretend it's really 250 pages thick, so if people wanna say they're the greatest rules ever then it's on them not Scale75)
Don't even get me started on the rules.
I am trying to get them to do are ised copy via Volomir.
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Post by: RiTides
Having looked at it more, in resin at this model scale, the cost per model seems crazy low... not sure what to think.
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Post by: Riquende
Yeah, it'll be useful to keep that quote to keep firing back at them in a year's time.
Pretty certain they'd previously ruled out PVC, only to talk about it again 'as an option' in a later update.
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Post by: Alpharius
HIPs or 'resin' - and NOT PVC - would quell a lot of fears/anxiety/etc.
Blame McVey, Soda Ninja and Mantic if you want, but the 'threat' of PVC isn't going to go over well anymore.
I don't know how DRAKERYS has managed to avoid this problem too, but looking at their campaign, they're in a serious stall as well.
For me, it is unbelievable how the Super Supporters can't see how obvious the problem is with this campaign, and how simple it would have been to NOT have gone through this, and how NOT answering the "Material Question" is at the root of all the problems here!
Now that they've kinda/sorta answered it - great!
But, it might be too late, and this one ends up pulling a full on THON and backslides right back past its funding target.
Now, IF they CLEARLY answer the "Material Question" this probably won't happen.
They can do 'real resin' for 700+/- backers, probably.
Warzone Resurrection sort of did this for 962 backers - kind of successfully.
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Post by: scadianforlife
Hang on, guys. I am trying to make them gurantee it.
Now, I will catch some flak for asserting a guarantee. Come on Alpharius, join in. Automatically Appended Next Post:
We gurantee that we will not use PVC for our miniatures.
Good to go
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Post by: Artemis Black
RiTides wrote:Having looked at it more, in resin at this model scale, the cost per model seems crazy low... not sure what to think.
If it ended today at current levels of peldging and funding they'd have less than 75k after VAT, kickstarter fees, amazon fees etc
They'll have to make moulds for 80 odd unique 40-50mm multipart figures. Then hand cast over 30 'thousand' full figures. Continually making new moulds as they died (and they'll die a 'lot' before you get that many figures)
They also have to make the game mates, scenery, vehicles, dice, game box, remove money for things like the paint sets and dvd etc.
Ask any resin caster ya know how long that will take and how much it'll cost. We work with resin a 'lot', hence the repeated 'good luck with that' comment.
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Post by: Alpharius
Sounds good to me!
I think the worst thing that could happen now is the same thing that seems to happen to almost every miniature wargame Kickstater - it will deliver well past its projected ship date.
EDIT:
Er, unless Artemis is right, of course!
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Post by: Zond
What ballpark figures we talking for resin then Artemis? I'm not excusing these guys but they have claimed to have external funding, be it from the Scale 75 parent company or Bruce Wayne.
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Post by: Artemis Black
Zond wrote:What ballpark figures we talking for resin then Artemis? I'm not excusing these guys but they have claimed to have external funding, be it from the Scale 75 parent company or Bruce Wayne.
Hmm, the main problem with guessing the ballpark figures is that a big part of the cost is labour. If they do it all in house and don't pay themselves then it's totally doable. It'll take a long ass time to be working for free though
For tens of thousands of figures you don't tend to choose high quality resin. For educational purposes if you went to a good resin company and asked them to do this it would cost 'significantly' more than 90k, never mind the 75k they'd actually get. So the only way to bring it back under cost is to do it in house and not pay yourself as much as you would someone else, or maybe even anything at all. It's too hard to estimate exactly how much resin each of those minis would need, how many parts they'd need to be in and how long each mould would last..
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Post by: Riquende
Guarantee not PVC. Funding drops another £500. I guess there were a couple of backers who were big fans of restic, wondering what all the fuss was about...
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Post by: zreef
Now I think the problem is if you can actually trust what they say. The going back and forth on the material and the original misleading information on the scale puts me off. At best they really have no plan going forward.
Although Drakerys is using PVC, they are honest about it. You know what you are getting into and its up to you to decide if you want to take that risk or not (or if you even see it as a risk).
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Post by: Necros
+1
I hate to not add anything constructive to this post, but I'd like to say that this was the most fun to read since Mandlebaumania.
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Post by: Alpharius
I think NOW that they've FINALLY committed to materials and funding levels, everything *should* be OK moving forward.
Of course, there's always the chance that this was too little, too late, and confusion still reigns and this project could backslide.
It is sad that the Special Snowflake Super Supporter Squad (S.S.S.S.S.) can't see the forest for the trees - it wasn't the 'haterz' that caused the problems here, it was the startlingly obvious lack of critical information that was the main issue.
And no matter how much McDonald's Junior wanted it to be so, sadly miniatures cannot be manufactured out of 'FAITH' and 'TRUST'.
It will almost definitely be 'real' resin and not HIPs, and I still think that if Prodos can do it as a 'start up' for Warzone for 960+ backers, Scale Games should be able to do it here for 700, give or take.
Sure, it will be late, but it can be done...
EDIT:
Looks like previously achieved Stretch Goals have in fact been rescinded until such time as those funding levels are hit again.
Creator SCALE GAMES 18 minutes ago
Blangis: Alexander03 will join forces again once we are back to 93.500 pounds
EDIT 2:
And it just 'unfunded'.
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Post by: edlowe
Wow, unfunded now. Guess theres still uncertainty about the production or something else is putting off backers.
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Post by: Alpharius
All the uncertainty up front, the confusion that followed...
Fallen Frontiers has become "Falling Frontiers".
I thought FINALLY settling the 'material issue' would have done the trick here!
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Post by: Lovejoy
639 backers... £89,671.... they've managed to un-fund. Never seen that happen before!
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Post by: Riquende
Alpharius wrote:I thought FINALLY settling the 'material issue' would have done the trick here!
The problem is that they have come across very amateurish (I'll happily admit translation issues account for a lot of that), and it still looks like they just don't have a plan. Even saying "x amount for this material, y amount for the other" just means that until the campaign is over (and possibly until the pledge managers/surveys are all in), you know that there can be no agreements being made with potential manufacturers, etc. The project has huge warning signs that scream 'development hell for years'.
Now there's a wider question about whether we've come to expect too much from Kickstarters, having been 'spoiled' by flashy campaigns from established companies with their manufacturing processes already lined up. But I can certainly see why backers (or potential backers) have been put off by how the campaign has been run.
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Post by: Necros
Hmm.. I always thought you couldn't unfund a campaign once it's funded? I thought I remembered reading somewhere that if you were going to pull a pledge that makes it unfund, you get a message saying you can't?
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Post by: Cyporiean
 Necros wrote:Hmm.. I always thought you couldn't unfund a campaign once it's funded? I thought I remembered reading somewhere that if you were going to pull a pledge that makes it unfund, you get a message saying you can't?
Thats only true in the last 24hrs.
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Post by: Alpharius
The problem here might have been because they pretty much said HIPs from the start - kind of.
Then once it was 'cleared up' and revealed as not HIPs, they lost a significant chunk of funding.
I'm happy with 'real resin' but some may not be...
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Post by: cincydooley
I just backed the project so I can post in the comments section. Grab your popcorn boys.
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Post by: Artemis Black
I'm pretty sure it'll fund again, enough people seem to not care that they will be fine, there's 'always' people waiting to jump in at th last minute.
Would be very strange if the slide continued. Although it might allow SG to reformat the KS for a second go that doesn't seem like they're just making things up as they go along.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Heh, it also amuses me that their entire FAQ is still vague nonsense.
'What Material' still says "The material will be HIPS (High Impact Polystyrene) but some items (vehicles for example) can be cast in PU resin." which apparently was never true.
'Shipping costs' give a number but then say 'approx', which is never good when you're ordering a number of boxed items adding up to 200+ large scale minis .
"What Scale" still says "At Scale games we have chosen to scale O (O gauge), where 7 mm correspond to 1 foot.
In this way a model of 1.80 m (6.8 ft) in reality, will measure 40 mm in total.
When we say that a human is 35 mm in FF we refer up to the eyes, not total, since is commonly used as a standar among brands selling kits of 54 or 75 mm." which is a mess of crap, the o gauge part seems to be the only correct sentence, the other parts are a typo and a lie.
And the gameplay question points to a youtube interview with Michael Bartels where they just basicaly advertise their kickstaretr in pigeon english. There's no actual gameplay examples or anything. It doesn't even have a link to the tiny rules pamphlet they are calling 'beta'.
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Post by: edlowe
 cincydooley wrote:I just backed the project so I can post in the comments section. Grab your popcorn boys.
Hi Cincydooley, are you the irishman by any chance?
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Post by: cincydooley
Maaaayyyyybeeeee.
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Post by: Cyporiean
All I know is that this Irshman fellow backed our Kickstarter, so I think he is wise with his money.
Also it appears that scale is reading Dakka.
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Post by: Alpharius
Well, I'd like to think that the open communication here is what they'd be after.
In fact, Scale has already thanked backers for the constructive criticism and critical comments as it has helped them improve.
Again, if Prodos can produce resin minis for 960+ backers, I'd think that Scale can do the same - and I'd bet that their quality might be better given that they've already got experience doing it, contacts, materials, etc.
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Post by: cincydooley
 Cyporiean wrote:All I know is that this Irshman fellow backed our Kickstarter, so I think he is wise with his money.
Also it appears that scale is reading Dakka.
Yah. I got a kick out of that.
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Post by: Alpharius
While I might wish for SG to communicate 'officially' a bit more, I think a lot of this can be chalked up to 'lost in translation' and maybe not enough 'up front' work here?
They certainly seem like well-meaning, friendly types and they've got the experience with the material...
It might end up being late, but if they go with resin, I think it will be good.
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Post by: cincydooley
They're not happy with me. C'est la vie.
I guess it wouldn't be the right time to point out that I'm pretty critical or any non-transparent KS project in their comments on the KS, would it. I guess it's good they'll read it here then.
I love how this gak looks. The designs are great. The scale minis I own are beautiful.
I don't like that they lied about scale and material.
I don't like that they couldn't get a 175 backer project delivered in the same quarter as their estimate. I don't like that production for this's will run into Chinese New Year.
I also don't believe they can produce HIPS for everything they're claiming for $130k based on the knowledge I have from CMoN and WWX.
These are valid concerns.
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Post by: Alpharius
Damn!
Down to £89K now!
I hope this one does NOT pull a THON!
I like the look and scale of these miniatures, and now that the material issues has been settled...!
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Post by: paulson games
Why? Sometimes not funding is the best thing that can happen for the backers as it protects them from themselves. A dip in the middle is pretty normal for most KS projects I'm sure it'll climb back up to funding level without much of an issue. I'll be surprised however if there a big explosion of backing in the last two days, they'll get some but I'm not sure that they'll get the normal rush of stuff that mirrors the first two days of growth. Once trust is shaken the only thing they can really appeal to is people's greed and use major discounting to draw in new backers at this point. Even if they shored things up at this point I'm not going to re-back things as it just doesn't seem like they have things lined up properly. Sure they may say we're going to do x but they should have been clear from the get go on what type of product there were going to deliver and should not have needed their arm twisted by their customer base to form a plan. For all the art and pre-planning work that obviously went into the game they seem to have completely dropped the ball when it came to preparing for production. Maybe they've recovered from that fumble and they'll end up with a half time turn around but it's shaken the confidence of a lot of backers and I don't see them jumping back aboard. It's a shame as they have a nice looking product, but this is another game that I'll end up waiting to see if/when it hits retail. If not, no worries as I'm sure some other game will pop up in it's place.
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Post by: zreef
a lot of damage has been done and slipping below funding will make people antsy. Those that want a good deal via stretch goals will probably also back out as there is less of a chance many will be unlocked.
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Post by: Pilgrim_uk
To be honest cincydooley you are the type of person JR was talking about and it puts Dakka Dakka in bad light. Backing only to comment bad form old boy.
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Post by: Alpharius
But JR is the kind of person that puts Kickstarter Comments section in a bad light, to the point where they're almost useless.
I think cincy honestly wants this one to succeed, and now that it is most likely going to be 'resin', I think he's more likely to stay in!
I think what happened here is that there were a lot of people in this thinking it was going to be HIPs, hard plastic, and when that was finally officially shown to not be the case, well, here we are.
I'm MORE than OK with resin being the material - especially as the 'threat' of PVC has been removed.
This one can still bounce back, but SG is going to have to get a LOT better in their communications.
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
Necros wrote:Hmm.. I always thought you couldn't unfund a campaign once it's funded? I thought I remembered reading somewhere that if you were going to pull a pledge that makes it unfund, you get a message saying you can't?
It's only on the final day (might be last 12 hours) that you can't pull enough of your pledge to unfund a project
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Post by: Pilgrim_uk
Yeah but two wrongs don't make a right Alpha. As Scale games pointed out in the comments "bring out the popcorn" makes it look like Dakka its producing trolls and reveling in the discord of a kickstarter.
Just saying what it looks like to me.
Totally agree about the Resin was not expecting it so soon and interesting to see what triage they administer
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Post by: Artemis Black
Alpharius wrote:Damn!
Down to £89K now!
I hope this one does NOT pull a THON!
I like the look and scale of these miniatures, and now that the material issues has been settled...!
Unless this is the world's most wel finromed group of pledgers or the world's most easily turned off by loons in the comment section ones then it should stil be fine, the haemorrhaging in will slow/stop and then moe people will show up, especially at the end.
I would still guess the only reaosn it won' comfortably overfund is if SG pull it to start again without ballsing everything up as much as possible but I doubt they'll do that, I simply don't think a '40mm+ resin skirmish game' has the kind of snowball power as a '35mm plastic skirmish game".
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Post by: cincydooley
 Pilgrim_uk wrote:To be honest cincydooley you are the type of person JR was talking about and it puts Dakka Dakka in bad light. Backing only to comment bad form old boy.
And you're entitled to think that. I'm presently in for a £100 pledge, so at the very least I'm speaking with my wallet. They'll notice a £100 loss in pledging more than a £5 one, and I don't typically do that anyways because I'm not a troll. Again, if you'll look back at the first few pages of their thread, you'll notice I had it on my watch list from the beginning. I only started commenting because I can't stand Super Snowball Supporters and I think it's important to provide a counterpoint to them and hold the companies accountable for their mismanagement and lack of transparency.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Additionally, someone needs to bring up the Duel Fighters is gonna be at least 3 months late with only 175 backers elephant that seems to be ignored.
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Post by: Pilgrim_uk
Please spare me the righteousness Dooley. Yes you really are a bastion.
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Post by: zreef
what was the issue with Duel Fighters?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I just read the most recent comments on duel fighters and the updates ... looks like they are having some issues with the sculpting and manufacturing in china and hence the delays.
This might prove problematic couple with the unknown manufacturing route they are taking for Fallen Frontiers.
Check out the Duel Fighters KS its worth a glance through.
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Post by: cincydooley
zreef wrote:what was the issue with Duel Fighters?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I just read the most recent comments on duel fighters and the updates ... looks like they are having some issues with the sculpting and manufacturing in china and hence the delays.
This might prove problematic couple with the unknown manufacturing route they are taking for Fallen Frontiers.
Check out the Duel Fighters KS its worth a glance through.
It only concerns me because their production window sits pretty squarely in the scary "super delays can happen" Chinese New Year window.
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Post by: Pilgrim_uk
That was bad news indeed 3 month delay as dooley mentioned should have been getting them this month but September at the least. Got one of the resin pieces at 75mm and 20 quid a pop its pretty good although it does always feel better when its a metal piece ( not really better just that value for money feeling you get when you pick up a metal piece). Supposedly its a different team thats dealing with FF who did Duel fighters according to Volomir.
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Post by: cincydooley
I think their 75MM scuplts are well worth the money. They're great. It's a fun (and different) scale to paint in. Prob my fave 75mms after Knights and Andrea.
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Post by: Caballero Negro
Excuse me, can anyone tell a KS that made minis in HIPS?? not a big company like GW
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Post by: Cyporiean
Dreamforge Games, Tablescapes, Through the breach, Wild West Exodos.
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Post by: zreef
For those that backed duel fighters what was your experience with scale? Are happy with how that kickstarter is going?
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Post by: Caballero Negro
Cyporiean wrote:
Dreamforge Games, Tablescapes, Through the breach, Wild West Exodos.
Thanks looking for them
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Post by: Piston Honda
zreef wrote:For those that backed duel fighters what was your experience with scale? Are happy with how that kickstarter is going?
Have they delivered them yet?
At any rate,
we are the scum of the earth, apparently
"I'm hoping that Scale Games produces a "troll" model. They could take a survey of the backers and make sure it's awarded to Dakkaites. Hell, I'd buy that as an add on."
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Post by: Artemis Black
zreef wrote:For those that backed duel fighters what was your experience with scale? Are happy with how that kickstarter is going?
Does anyone have anything from it? It's looking to be 4 months behind schedule.
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Post by: Piston Honda
cincydooley wrote:I just backed the project so I can post in the comments section. Grab your popcorn boys.
Is your screen name the same?
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Post by: zreef
Artemis Black wrote:zreef wrote:For those that backed duel fighters what was your experience with scale? Are happy with how that kickstarter is going?
Does anyone have anything from it? It's looking to be 4 months behind schedule.
I do not believe so, I was more curious how they were handling the delay. Having something delayed in it of itself is not a bad thing, but how a company handles the delay can be. So I was curious how those that backed Duel Fighters felt about Scale games and handling an unforeseen hiccup in the kickstarter.
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Post by: Piston Honda
Screen cap of the kickstraq
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Post by: Pilgrim_uk
@Zreef
Was very happy with what I got but sad it didn't get any further. Think 75mm is too much for gamers . My experience with Scale games was positive really willing to listen, change pledges and were their almost everyday answering and listening to backers. Its the reason I came back to back frontiers.
You could probably see that for yourself by just going to the campaign page. Check the last update about how the company dealt with the delay. The delay was only in the mini's as from the update below they had everything else. The only thing to do now is be patient, I'm happy to do that.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/986826251/duel-fighters/posts
LOL you wish Piston
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Post by: cincydooley
I figured out the confusion with this comment. The "just" in my comment doesn't mean "only". It means "just now". And no Piston, it's The Irishman there. I'm contemplating changing it so they match because the scale people are assuming I have something to hide. I don't
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Post by: plastictrees
Yeah, it sounded like you were taunting.
Sorry to see this in such a state, especially as they seemed to be better prepared than many campaigns. If people could understand that the questions are reasonable and it's the table-flipping reactions to the questions that are causing drama it would probably give Scale more time to work things out.
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Post by: cincydooley
 plastictrees wrote:Yeah, it sounded like you were taunting.
Sorry to see this in such a state, especially as they seemed to be better prepared than many campaigns. If people could understand that the questions are reasonable and it's the table-flipping reactions to the questions that are causing drama it would probably give Scale more time to work things out.
I mean, aside from the fact that they had no idea what material they were going to use, then yeah. They were totes prepared
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Post by: plastictrees
Their presentation was good, which is what I was refering to. Great art and painted minis, solid graphics.
Compared to say...Gate of Antares, which admittedly might be an unreasonably low bar.
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Post by: AlexHolker
plastictrees wrote:Their presentation was good, which is what I was refering to. Great art and painted minis, solid graphics.
Compared to say...Gate of Antares, which admittedly might be an unreasonably low bar.
Gates of Antares isn't a bar, it's a line in the sand.
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Post by: Piston Honda
I can understand people who are passionate about this as being angry.
But this comment I found disgusting.
"No idea.
This KS has done everything right. So the only reason for people quiting I can think of is because it is not a USA project and some US gamers do not like EU projects"
So, with some of the most notable wargames and miniature companies coming out of Europe (and New Zealand), that are purchased and loved by many American wargamers and probably count for the largest share in revenue, this project is failing because we (Americans) are Xenophobes.
Must be true.
Thank the gods Infinity is a real American game.
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Post by: gohkm
Have they really gone resin? I'll have to back this one now.
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Post by: Bioptic
It's resin until £130K, at which point it becomes HIPS apparently. I love both materials, so can't say I'd have a problem with either.
I just want the thing to actually fund again - the amount of backsliding is really quite worrying! Would be particularly nice if it could reach £100K, as that'll net quite a few nice character models...
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Post by: plastictrees
AlexHolker wrote: plastictrees wrote:Their presentation was good, which is what I was refering to. Great art and painted minis, solid graphics.
Compared to say...Gate of Antares, which admittedly might be an unreasonably low bar.
Gates of Antares isn't a bar, it's a line in the sand.
That's just the mark left by the bar that Rick Priestley picked up and took home.
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Post by: Alpharius
Piston Honda wrote:zreef wrote:For those that backed duel fighters what was your experience with scale? Are happy with how that kickstarter is going?
Have they delivered them yet?
At any rate,
we are the scum of the earth, apparently
"I'm hoping that Scale Games produces a "troll" model. They could take a survey of the backers and make sure it's awarded to Dakkaites. Hell, I'd buy that as an add on."
That is neither polite nor considerate. You should report that.
gohkm wrote:Have they really gone resin? I'll have to back this one now.
Yes, 'real' resin - and the sample looks GOOD!
Update #29
Jun 12 2014
Resin production quality
9 comments
15 likes
Hi all.
We hope you have the specifications provided on the material be sufficient to satisfy your curiosity. To avoid confusion we will summarize.
We will not use PVC on our miniatures
If Fallen frontiers ends its campaign with less funding to 130K pounds use resin to produce our figures (as shown in the picture)
If Fallen frontiers reaches 130K Pounds production will be done using HIPS .
Thanks all for your support!
That update should help!
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Post by: Pilgrim_uk
Piston the guy apologised for that comment but seriously you found that comment disgusting?
Being a little dramatastic aren't we.
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Post by: Piston Honda
Pilgrim_uk wrote:Piston the guy apologised for that comment but seriously you found that comment disgusting?
Being a little dramatastic aren't we.
Being called a xenophobe? hardly.
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Post by: Alpharius
Well, apparently that one guy apologized.
Actually, didn't both of them?
If so, yeah, best to forgive and move on, right?
I mean, you've seen that test resin miniature, yes?
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Post by: gohkm
Thanks, Alpharius.
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Post by: zreef
what is the worry Kevin Johnson is alluding to about resin production? I have had some dud resin models, but if done well resin is really nice. Also they have experience in resin in their 75mm right? I not sure what the issue is. Is this just more drama people are kicking up or something legitimate that I missed?
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Post by: Alpharius
Scroll up to read Artemis Black's summary of resin production - it isn't as easy as it sounds, apparently, and especially not in the potential volumes here...
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Post by: zreef
Alpharius wrote:Scroll up to read Artemis Black's summary of resin production - it isn't as easy as it sounds, apparently, and especially not in the potential volumes here...
Thank you for the quick response! I just found the worries. I keep waffling on this one ... do you guys think the scenery would be usable with Infinity?
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Post by: Piston Honda
zreef wrote:what is the worry Kevin Johnson is alluding to about resin production? I have had some dud resin models, but if done well resin is really nice. Also they have experience in resin in their 75mm right? I not sure what the issue is. Is this just more drama people are kicking up or something legitimate that I missed?
I think it has to do with he amount of resin casting this KS needs.
It is a work load. I've done a lot of it when I had to restore some art deco and Victorian era parts as masters for some local mansions. It's a pain in the ass. But assuming they are pros, and they are it should be second nature to them.
The issue arises, with the number of current backs now, how do they expect to deliver on time when their previous KS of 175 people is running late?
Personally, I tack on 3 months to every KS for their estimated deliver date.
It's up to the back to decide. Is quality worth waiting for?
It can't be any longer than relic knights, right?
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Post by: Alpharius
Ha!
I agree with you there!
It won't be as late, and it won't be as low quality as Relic Knights - not even close!
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Post by: RiTides
That resin model doors look fantastic. And while the quantity is high to produce in resin, Prodos games is doing exactly that with their Aliens vs Predator campaign, at a similar price point per model (although granted the models are smaller).
I think sticking with resin is a great idea for them, and hope they fund and are able to do just that.
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Post by: gohkm
I've just realized that shipping to Rest of World is 18 GBP - my stars!
This might just kill it for me :(. And I don't even want the box game, just a few of the faction sets.
International post is certainly getting extremely expensive.
Anyone in Oz pledging for this? Can I piggyback my pledge on yours, and we'll split the shipping cost?
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Post by: plastictrees
Jumped back in. I'd be quite happy with quality resin minis.
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Post by: Some_Call_Me_Tim?
Gotta say, I've been following this KS from its inception, and I just want to see it succeed. So let's hope that the resin test model pulls people back in, because holy gak is it nice!
~Tim?
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Post by: Cyporiean
Something about how the shadows fall onto that model looks 'off' to me...
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Post by: Some_Call_Me_Tim?
Cyporiean wrote:Something about how the shadows fall onto that model looks 'off' to me...
Aaaaand here we go again. ~Tim?
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Post by: plastictrees
That's just a cosplaying goblin made up to LOOK like a resin miniature! Fraud!
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Post by: legoburner
It looks legit to me - you can see the 3D printing marks have not been cleaned off properly under the neck before casting.
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Post by: Cyporiean
 legoburner wrote:It looks legit to me - you can see the 3D printing marks have not been cleaned off properly under the neck before casting.
Yeah, I'm not saying that its a render... just that the way light/shadows flow on the model look 'off' to me.
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Post by: zreef
I dont think its a render.
huh ... if you look at the second picture front leg, the shadows above the creases almost look like the were shaded in with a wash. gah
Automatically Appended Next Post:
... naw its probably just a sharp light source
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Post by: insaniak
Cyporiean wrote: legoburner wrote:It looks legit to me - you can see the 3D printing marks have not been cleaned off properly under the neck before casting.
Yeah, I'm not saying that its a render... just that the way light/shadows flow on the model look 'off' to me.
Some resins just look a bit weird when photographed ' raw'.
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Post by: basement.dweller
If everyone gets proper PU resin minis at roughly £1,30 each (starter price) that is a steal.
I never thought I'd be worried about resin minis being too cheap, but here we are
I mean 4 starters consisting of 76 resin 40+ mm for £100 Unheard of.
The siren song beckens me to just buy lots of starters... but I'd feel dirty somehow
Actually I really don't understand how that will support and help give this game a viable future.
Unless it's only meant to have this exact effect and get them grossly overfunded, as resin makes no sense to me at all.
If they continue to be resin at retail - the prices would have to rise 2x at least, but likely 3x to begin to make sense business wise.
Everyone that didn't back it will be pissed about the price hike and everyone that bought in, will already have what they want or be pissed about the price hike.
Could someone maybe ask what retail would possibly look like if this "stays" resin?
Some price speculation/comparison
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Post by: Piston Honda
I honestly don't think this will stay resin, on the table. I think it will get that 130k mark that will initiate the HIPs production. Whether or not you feel comfortable with the keeping that promise at a lower funding goal is an entirely different matter.
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Post by: plastictrees
HIPS for the starter set with resin boosters might be more feasible. Then Scale would at least be getting the benefit of those core models being tooled.
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Post by: basement.dweller
@Piston: I don't think this will stay resin either - just saying
@plastictrees: Yes that does seems more realistic and perhaps sustainable with the booster pricing.
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Post by: Alpharius
If this one followed the "WWX" model, I'd be OK with that.
HIPs for 'troops', resin for characters.
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Post by: cincydooley
Alpharius wrote:If this one followed the " WWX" model, I'd be OK with that.
HIPs for 'troops', resin for characters.
I recommended that in the comments.
I didn't get a +1
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Post by: koffietheekan
These discussions about materials and pricing, harms this project.
Lets talk about material choice when Relic Knight KS was active? There was no discussion about material during their campaign, they only had art and their master collecter models to promote the campaign, how misleading was that? Does Scale Games pay the price for their mistakes? After 2 months of counting money they came with an apdate. We gonna look for a factory that can produce this mass with shity stuff. But this is going offtopic now.... My humble apologies.
Have faith in Scale Games these guys listen to backers (whats good for you, is good for them), unlike some companies.
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Post by: cincydooley
koffietheekan wrote:These discussions about materials and pricing, harms this project.
Lets talk about material choice when Relic Knight KS was active? There was no discussion about material during their campaign, they only had art and their master collecter models to promote the campaign, how misleading was that? Does Scale Games pay the price for their mistakes? After 2 months of counting money they came with an apdate. We gonna look for a factory that can produce this mass with shity stuff. But this is going offtopic now.... My humble apologies.
Have faith in Scale Games these guys listen to backers (whats good for you, is good for them), unlike some companies
Nice shilly first post bro.
And to continue:
Their lack of transparency harmed the project. Their dishonest harmed the project. Concern over production material is a legitimate concern.
I'm happy they're choosing resin. Even if they hit £130k, I don't believe it will be enough money to do everything in plastic. Based on knowledge if the industry and industry contacts that I have, I don't believe the £130k is enough. Artemis has said as much.
And as happy as I am about the resin, I don't believe, based on their issues with the significantly smaller Duel Fighters game, that they'll be even remotely able to deliver by April 2015. I'd love to be wrong, because I like the models and designs, but I don't think I am.
But you can continue to be blindly faithful. I'll leave that for Sundays.
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Post by: edlowe
Im going to give them a chance, I really hope I dont regret it. Im besotted by shiny toys. I like what they are offering. Please don't think bad of me if it goes tits up
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Post by: Alpharius
cincydooley wrote: Alpharius wrote:If this one followed the " WWX" model, I'd be OK with that.
HIPs for 'troops', resin for characters.
I recommended that in the comments.
I didn't get a +1
Heh!
Is the whole "+1" thing just really big in this campaign, or is it a widespread Kickstarter thing?
Anyway, I think this one will rebound, get funded and finish comfortably north of that goal.
I hope!
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Post by: edlowe
Alpharius wrote: cincydooley wrote: Alpharius wrote:If this one followed the " WWX" model, I'd be OK with that.
HIPs for 'troops', resin for characters.
I recommended that in the comments.
I didn't get a +1
Heh!
Is the whole "+1" thing just really big in this campaign, or is it a widespread Kickstarter thing?
Anyway, I think this one will rebound, get funded and finish comfortably north of that goal.
I hope!
+1 Alpha
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Post by: insaniak
koffietheekan wrote:Have faith in Scale Games these guys listen to backers (whats good for you, is good for them), unlike some companies.
Sure, they've shown that they listen. But the apparent indecision over materials and the sidestepping and vague answers given at the start of the Kickstarter do not promote faith that they know what they are doing.
I'm sure they're wonderful people and devoted hobbyists, and that they've produced some awesome stuff in the past. But that doesn't automatically mean that they're equipped to pull off a project on this scale, and their behaviour so far suggests otherwise.
It looks more and more like this project should have waited another month or two before launch while they did a little more research and crunched a few more numbers.
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Post by: edlowe
I've realised tonight I need to be more open to new ideas hence im hoping we can, with scale games involvement move forward and deliver an awesome game.
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Post by: Piston Honda
Everyone here gets a +1.
A prince in Africa needs to hide some of his +1s from Warlords. In exchange of giving him my bank info and SS number he is giving me a few million +1s as payment. Enjoy everyone.
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Post by: RiTides
I didn't realize their first campaign is delayed, and had issues with the Chinese producer, until someone mentioned it above and I just checked the updates... that doesn't inspire confidence, either.
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Post by: Alpharius
I'll take it!
Resin miniatures here are going to look fantastic.
It might turn out to be a Mierce KS 1 type of deal, but if it get this game rolling, OK!
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Post by: edlowe
Well I've changed my mind and have decided to give them a chance. I'm hoping I'm not diving into the abyss but sometimes you have to go all in with 2 pair.
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Post by: RiTides
Alpharius wrote:It might turn out to be a Mierce KS 1 type of deal, but if it get this game rolling, OK!
That's a fair point, as in hindsight that campaign was one of the best deals I've ever seen. I'd probably have already pledged for an add-on here if the scale were smaller. Resin is the best!
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Post by: Pilgrim_uk
Think calling them "Dishonest" is a bit unfair thats my take on it. Misguided perhaps.
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Post by: Sirio
Pilgrim_uk wrote:Think calling them "Dishonest" is a bit unfair thats my take on it. Misguided perhaps.
On the contrary "dishonest" is a pretty fair description imo, though "ill-prepared" and "deceitful" are better terms.
They lied about the scale, they lied about the material, they lied about the shipping times and according to manufacturers they keep on lying since HIPS production with 130K (which after fees it adds up to something like 115K) is hardly enough even for cheap Chinese manufacturing. 
At this point I wish they hit the 130K limit, so they -again- will prove themselves inadequate. This may sound "evil" but educates customers more, just like Artemis Black pointed it out a failure at this budget (we're talking 130K GBP !!!) could penalize future campaigns both for creators and backers who bear zero responsability for Fallen/Falling Frontiers.
What more concerns me though is how this project managed to get this much attention when it has become so obvious that the company has simply zero experience nor done any of their homework when it comes to creating projects/games of this scale... ( lol, see what I have done here?)
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Post by: Vertrucio
I don't see where they lied about scale, they posted a picture of miniatures to well known scenery.
However, what they were was needlessly evasive about the scale, which is super weird and definitely was a red flag.
Honestly the scale thing was a huge overreaction, and all this name calling probably did more to hurt the discussion than help.
Then, and again, they were needlessly evasive about the material. Which I stress that it would have been perfectly fine and normal to have plans for multiple material types depending on funding. But, you need to state that up front and provide clear goals for when certain things get converted from restic to hard plastic or hard resin. You turn it into a goal to be reached, not something you dance around trying to hope that enough people buy in early.
Then as soon as they committed to hard plastic, all the negative nancies immediately switch to complaining about something else and casting doubt on everything, often making up silly arguments.
Overall, this kickstarter has plenty of problems, and the creators should have thought a lot more through before they started.
But this culture of negativity only made things worse, not better. It's a very specific set of people that do nothing but pile on any perceived weakness, or make up more where there aren't.
I foresee some good, rock solid kickstarters being brought unnecessarily low by this same kind of negativity.
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Post by: Krinsath
The interesting point brought up here is that yes, Fallen Frontiers is absolutely paying a price for the mistakes of other KS projects. Consumers have seen many overly late projects delivering inconsistent results and have taken notes on the common threads these unsatisfactory experiences shared. Thusly informed by what derailed others they are now on the lookout for the mistakes other projects made such as the seeming-mystery that China does nothing for the same month every year.
Is it "fair" that Scale has to take some flak because of these other failures in the KS market? In a perfect world maybe not but in this world it's part of the due diligence in trying to get funding from KS. You should know what the consumer experience has been and what pain points people are going to ask you about and have answers at the ready, not answers you have to go think about for a while. By not having that market research squared away, it brings into focus that there might be other major tasks that were similarly not done. Those are warning flags from the get-go and sending up those flags will cost a project backers.
I don't think Scale is being intentionally misleading; I think they just didn't plan things out anywhere near good enough to bring out this KS and now have to scramble to address things. For me, that's enough to be moved into the "maybe at retail" column.
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Post by: Zond
I think you'll find most of the people asking for more clarification or specificity are now quite ardent backers, myself included. However the great +1 Witch Hunt Troll debate didn't help much, but I think it was perhaps necessary. As has been said there were a fewer red flags which have mostly been addressed. I would love to see a resin figure of each faction, basic troopers probably, just to see a final line up and the overall quality.
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Post by: Artemis Black
 Vertrucio wrote:I don't see where they lied about scale, they posted a picture of miniatures to well known scenery.
However, what they were was needlessly evasive about the scale, which is super weird and definitely was a red flag.
Honestly the scale thing was a huge overreaction, and all this name calling probably did more to hurt the discussion than help.
Not only did they lie about the scale by repeatedly claiming it was a 35mm game they are 'still' doing it after they posted the tiny photo of their stuff. Check the FAQ, it still says "35mm to the eyes" which isn't true (and it still has the 6.8ft typo which coincidentally makes them sound like actual 35mm figures). The shortest figure they've shown so far is at least 40mm tall, which is 'not' 35mm to the eyes. The rest of the figures are multiple mm taller, all the way up to that Sihlas Fenn character that gets released again at 90k who looks to basically be a 54mm figure.
Try and stick that Sihlas Fenn guy in a 40k doorway and then tell me it's a 35mm game that you can use your existing scenery for.
That's not an overreaction, I saw with my own eyes people going on about how they were great compared to other minis and how they'd match with x game and even now people keep mentioning 35mm in the KS comments page.
All the new photos are either tiny or weirdly angled, like the scenery shots taken on purpose in corners of buildings with no doorways etc. It's been done on purpose quite clearly.
And they 'still' don't own a goddamn ruler!
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Post by: Alpharius
Vertrucio wrote:
I foresee some good, rock solid kickstarters being brought unnecessarily low by this same kind of negativity.
I saw very little 'negativity' here or there - I saw more calls for clarity, and that can ONLY be a good thing for all parties in every Kickstarter.
Anyway, this one seems to be headed back up, and that's a good thing.
I do love 'real' resin miniatures!
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Post by: Artemis Black
basement.dweller wrote:If everyone gets proper PU resin minis at roughly £1,30 each (starter price) that is a steal.
I never thought I'd be worried about resin minis being too cheap, but here we are
I mean 4 starters consisting of 76 resin 40+ mm for £100 Unheard of.
The siren song beckens me to just buy lots of starters... but I'd feel dirty somehow
Actually I really don't understand how that will support and help give this game a viable future.
Unless it's only meant to have this exact effect and get them grossly overfunded, as resin makes no sense to me at all.
If they continue to be resin at retail - the prices would have to rise 2x at least, but likely 3x to begin to make sense business wise.
Everyone that didn't back it will be pissed about the price hike and everyone that bought in, will already have what they want or be pissed about the price hike.
Could someone maybe ask what retail would possibly look like if this "stays" resin?
Some price speculation/comparison
The thing is, the resin casting shown is going to be their own (or some local guy). Whereas in their last kickstarter they went to China for mass resin casting.
Have they said anywhere that if this KS funds in the resin range they will be doing it in house? Because that's what my earlier 'good luck with that' comments were about. this mini alone is one of the more simple ones and it has 3 parts, the body and legs couldn't be multimoulded, maybe the arm part could. Multiply that by 80 'and' then cast each mould you end up with 300 odd times (averaged out). That's not a tiny studio's in house resin production type job, it'd take forever and cost a fortune.
If their resin plan is to send it to China what's the point in showing us an in house resin casting of a cut up 3d print? It isn't what you're going to get any more than that 75mm commissar chick they are 'still' using as advertissing is what anyone is going to get.
(Seriously, 30 updates and they can't remove the 75mm minis from their advertising? Or change the FAQ which is basically all wrong? Pfft)
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Post by: AlexHolker
 Krinsath wrote:Is it "fair" that Scale has to take some flak because of these other failures in the KS market?
Of course it is: when you promise people over a hundred thousand dollars worth of product in exchange for a decent sized loan, the scrutiny they give your business trying to figure out whether you can fulfill this promise is well deserved. The problem is only that CMON didn't get enough flak during their campaigns to prevent them wasting hundreds of thousands of dollars on product which is not up to scratch.
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Post by: Azazelx
I'm staying out of this one. Waaaay too many red flags. Nice models, but I expect it will be a year late at the very least. Their lack of experience and knowledge make me think of Mantic's Men At Arms as an example of HIPS gone wrong...
Sorry Alph. Can't pull my pledge if I don't go in at all.
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Post by: zreef
Is everyone in just for the swanky models? What does everyone think of the rules? The resource gathering seems like it will be interesting.
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Post by: Alpharius
 Azazelx wrote:I'm staying out of this one. Waaaay too many red flags. Nice models, but I expect it will be a year late at the very least. Their lack of experience and knowledge make me think of Mantic's Men At Arms as an example of HIPS gone wrong...
Sorry Alph. Can't pull my pledge if I don't go in at all.
This one won't be HIPs though.
It will be 'high quality real resin', not PVC.
I think they'll do just fine there.
It will probably be really late, but, so be it.
I'll risk that, and get some nice high quality big miniatures now, at a significantly reduced cost!
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Post by: Sinful Hero
koffietheekan wrote:These discussions about materials and pricing, harms this project.
Lets talk about material choice when Relic Knight KS was active? There was no discussion about material during their campaign, they only had art and their master collecter models to promote the campaign, how misleading was that? Does Scale Games pay the price for their mistakes? After 2 months of counting money they came with an apdate. We gonna look for a factory that can produce this mass with shity stuff. But this is going offtopic now.... My humble apologies.
Have faith in Scale Games these guys listen to backers (whats good for you, is good for them), unlike some companies.
The reason people are giving SG a hard time is because of Relic Knights not having those questions asked. Relic knights was part of the big "kickstarter boom" for miniature games where most backers were not as knowledgeable about the process, or what questions to ask. Relic Knights, Sedition Wars, and the Mantic kickstarters were all lessons learned the hard way. Backers are more well-informed, and most kickstarters will start having these questions asked. Project creators will need to have answers ready, or they may receive a small backlash from backers who were burned from other projects.
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Post by: Artemis Black
Alpharius wrote: Azazelx wrote:I'm staying out of this one. Waaaay too many red flags. Nice models, but I expect it will be a year late at the very least. Their lack of experience and knowledge make me think of Mantic's Men At Arms as an example of HIPS gone wrong...
Sorry Alph. Can't pull my pledge if I don't go in at all.
This one won't be HIPs though.
It will be 'high quality real resin', not PVC.
I think they'll do just fine there.
It will probably be really late, but, so be it.
I'll risk that, and get some nice high quality big miniatures now, at a significantly reduced cost!
I havea genuine question, as I really have no idea about the answer.
What I've read about Scale75's quality has been good, even outside of the KS crazies. However their last kickstarter outsourced the casting to China. Is that a change? I.e. the 'quality that people are praising may be from their standard caster in Europe or even in-house while nobody has yet seen the quality of the Chinese guys stuff.
One would assume that because of the sheer scale that they will outsource the resin casting for this lot to China too but they haven't said one way or another. If they are planning on outsourcing to China then shownig a resin cast from someone else is back to the whole bait and switch thing. If they are doing it all in house then fair play to them. That is not a kickstarter I'd be happy fulfilling
Can you ask them directly if they plan on casting this kickstarter in house if i's resin? Or whether they are outsourcing to China like the last lot?
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Post by: RiTides
Again, Prodos Games does not outsource their resin casting for a similarly sized project with a similar price-per-model. The models are smaller, but resin casting is actually something that can be done in-house. In fact, I think it's much more likely that that is their plan.
The main reason to outsource to China is usually to use some other larger manufacturing scale process. Traditional resin casting can't be scaled up as easily, and if they're going that route (as all indications point to) then I do not think they will even be able to outsource it to China if they wanted to, and that it makes sense that they'll produce it themselves, just as Prodos Games is doing.
That has other drawbacks, but it's something I'd feel much more comfortable backing than if they were planning to outsource and try a new process for the first time for their company.
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Post by: Yonan
You'd think that the labour intensive resin casting would benefit the most from production in china given the wage disparity. Why can't it be scaled up as easily? Rather than running one mould at a time, couldn't, you make 5 new moulds at a time and run them concurrently using that lovely cheap labour?
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Post by: Zond
I've asked the question posed by Artemis Black directly as they've responded to me before. Hopefully it clears everything up. Finally. Think any of us will be awarded medals by Dakka for services performed beyond the call of duty in the Fallen Frontier Clarity Wars. I'd accept a golden +1.
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Post by: Artemis Black
RiTides wrote:Again, Prodos Games does not outsource their resin casting for a similarly sized project with a similar price-per-model. The models are smaller, but resin casting is actually something that can be done in-house. In fact, I think it's much more likely that that is their plan.
The main reason to outsource to China is usually to use some other larger manufacturing scale process. Traditional resin casting can't be scaled up as easily, and if they're going that route (as all indications point to) then I do not think they will even be able to outsource it to China if they wanted to, and that it makes sense that they'll produce it themselves, just as Prodos Games is doing.
That has other drawbacks, but it's something I'd feel much more comfortable backing than if they were planning to outsource and try a new process for the first time for their company.
I have no idea what Prodos games set up is but a quick glance at their Kickstarter page seems to indicate that theirs was more expensive per figure. The starter sets were 12 30odd mm figures plus some bitz for £30. Additions were priced accordingly etc. If they are set up as a resin caster or they just partnered with one that's totally doable.
In fact, I've said all along that the FF kickstarte 'is' doable in resin, it's just not a good idea, btu that's SG's problem not mine
The rest you say is a little confusing though. Scale Games last kickstarter is definitely outsourced to China, and the material is just standard resin apparently. There's nothing about 75mm figures that couldn't be cast in-house if you have resin manufacturing set up. So why dd the last Kickstarter outsource but you think this one won't?
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Post by: Caballero Negro
Thats odd how many people here are SO SURE that this project will fail. Are so sure, based on other KS and in his own deductions, but I can´t imagine them like the guy in the falling down movie making his complains when recieve some burger thats not the same that the photo or when his car mechanic tells him that the repair will last a few more days because he don´t have some piece needed or you make them sign a contract for that too??
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Post by: Artemis Black
 Yonan wrote:You'd think that the labour intensive resin casting would benefit the most from production in china given the wage disparity. Why can't it be scaled up as easily? Rather than running one mould at a time, couldn't, you make 5 new moulds at a time and run them concurrently using that lovely cheap labour?
Yes, that's exactly why I came to the conclusion that they'd outsource liek the last one. In resin casting labour costs are a huge partof the end cost.
If they are guaranteeing in-house prouction in Spain then fair enough, again, good luck to them Automatically Appended Next Post: Caballero Negro wrote:Thats odd how many people here are SO SURE that this project will fail. Are so sure, based on other KS and in his own deductions, but I can´t imagine them like the guy in the falling down movie making his complains when recieve some burger thats not the same that the photo or when his car mechanic tells him that the repair will last a few more days because he don´t have some piece needed or you make them sign a contract for that too??
Is anyone sure this project will fail, never mind so many? I'm pretty positive it'll fund just fine even with the recent dropouts, I'm a little more worried about the production part but I have no reason to believe that they simply won't produce anything. I'm also a little worried that a lot of people still in may think they are getting 35mm figures.
None of that constitues a 'fail' though, just an annoyance to various backers.
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Post by: Sinful Hero
Caballero Negro wrote:Thats odd how many people here are SO SURE that this project will fail. Are so sure, based on other KS and in his own deductions, but I can´t imagine them like the guy in the falling down movie making his complains when recieve some burger thats not the same that the photo or when his car mechanic tells him that the repair will last a few more days because he don´t have some piece needed or you make them sign a contract for that too??
"Failure" can be a very loose term. Some might think if the project doesn't hit HIPS it's a failure. If it doesn't break the million dollar mark it's a failure. If the models turn out to be garbage it's a failure. If it doesn't get funded it's a failure. If they don't hit their projected ship date it's a failure.
There are many definitions of "failure" in regards to kickstarter.
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Post by: Zond
SCALE GAMES says:
It will be of our own production we dont need to outsource resin. Next resin will be next to a ruler, dont worry.
Quick response.
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Post by: Alpharius
I'm not seeing a lot of people thinking/wishing that it would fail...
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Post by: Albino Squirrel
Alpharius wrote:I'm not seeing a lot of people thinking/wishing that it would fail...
Mostly just the one very vocal person.
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Post by: Artemis Black
Zond wrote:SCALE GAMES says:
It will be of our own production we dont need to outsource resin. Next resin will be next to a ruler, dont worry.
Quick response.
Excellent. That should help considerably.
It's like pulling teeth trying to get information, that ultimately will benefit 'them' considerably, out of them We should just send you in every time apparently.
Stick the 'correct' scale and other information on the front page, stick a ruler in a shot, tell people from the start what material things are going to be in and dont change your mind 15 times, it's like Kickstarter 101.
With great art, good sculpting, and apparently an already dedicated customer base this shoulda been easy for them. Silly sods.
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Post by: RiTides
Glad they confirmed they're doing it in-house, I think they can manage it all a lot better that way (again like Prodos). Sorry I couldn't respond earlier, busy day here!
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Post by: frozenwastes
I don't want this project to fail. Nor do I think it will.
But I want you to take on the risk for it.
I want you to back this product to success, and then wait for fulfillment and then post pictures and reviews of the miniatures here and then I'll decide if the product is worth getting at retail.
Please pledge higher
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Post by: Sirio
Actually I don't think anyone wishes that this should fail, including Artemis Black. He/she's in the industry and obviously knows what he/she's talking about, I appreciate that. Let the project succed by all means, maybe not overfund perhaps since it would be so unfair to other project creators that have done their math properly before stretching out their hand and asking for people's money.
Our whole gaming group is wishing that KS are done properly, this has been a laughing stock. Needless to say no-one is putting any money on this. I wish SG delivers everything people have paid for, I just hope they don't dare launch a 3rd KS before they have finished this one ( AFAIK they still haven't even finished the 1st one). If they are serious enough, it should take them a couple of years at the very least!
If they hadn't, they would have probably lost even more faith (from what little remains, China isn't the best option out there). At this point since others have pointed out that compared to Prodos this is a hell of a lot of work for free, the only fear is having them using cheap quality resin to back this up. Can't see any other way they can support this, other than digging their hands in their own pockets. But if they had that kind of funding they would have gone with plastic, something they obviously can't afford.
Sad. Such a promising project with such lovely minis and so poor planning.
Scale 75 has lost a lot of any reputation it previously had but I hope in the end this works out well for everyone.
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Post by: Artemis Black
Sirio wrote:
Actually I don't think anyone wishes that this should fail, including Artemis Black. He/she's in the industry and obviously knows what he/she's talking about, I appreciate that. Let the project succed by all means, maybe not overfund perhaps since it would be so unfair to other project creators that have done their math properly before stretching out their hand and asking for people's money.
Our whole gaming group is wishing that KS are done properly, this has been a laughing stock. Needless to say no-one is putting any money on this. I wish SG delivers everything people have paid for, I just hope they don't dare launch a 3rd KS before they have finished this one ( AFAIK they still haven't even finished the 1st one). If they are serious enough, it should take them a couple of years at the very least!
I really don't wish anything on them either way. My involvement snowballed out of a random fb group discussion and since then has mostly been me nattering in 2 forum threads and learning interesting stuff along the way.
It boils down to being as simple as this. You don't launch a kickstarter with the impression of 35mm plastic figures and two weeks later it's now mostly clear that it's 40+ mm resin ones. That's just suicide. Even with the issues it raised £90k, that's impressive, imagine what it could have raised if it wasn't run that way.
And frankly with this latest anouncement the worst thing I could wish on the company isn't failure, it's funding at £90,001. I would 'not' want to be in charge of fulfilling that.
Whoever is in charge of the actual KS seems to have ballsed it right up but to be fair I have no idea who that is or what info they were privy to, going by the comments it doesn' seem like there's a 'person' and that it's a number of people all of whom seem to have thought completely different things. There's been 3 new updates since last I had a look but yet the FAQ on the front page is 'still' wrong. I don't even know at this stage how that is possible, they're reading this damn forum and replying to it in their own comments so they have to know.
*WAVES AT SCALE GAMES* Hey, change your FAQ!
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Post by: scadianforlife
*WAVES AT SCALE GAMES* Hey, change your FAQ!
I think they heard you.
At Scale games we have chosen to scale O (O gauge), where 7 mm correspond to 1 foot.
In this way a model of 1.80 m (6.8 ft) in reality, will measure 40 mm in total.
When we say that a human is 35 mm in FF we refer up to the eyes, not total, since is commonly used as a standar among brands selling kits of 54 or 75 mm.
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Post by: Artemis Black
scadianforlife wrote:
*WAVES AT SCALE GAMES* Hey, change your FAQ!
I think they heard you.
At Scale games we have chosen to scale O (O gauge), where 7 mm correspond to 1 foot.
In this way a model of 1.80 m (6.8 ft) in reality, will measure 40 mm in total.
When we say that a human is 35 mm in FF we refer up to the eyes, not total, since is commonly used as a standar among brands selling kits of 54 or 75 mm.
*grin* That's what I want them to change. It originally just said "35mm scale" and now it says that instead which is closer to reality but only the first line seems true, they do seem to follow o gauge.
6.8ft is a typo that makes them seem smaller. 1.8m is 5.8ft or 5"10" in imperial measurements world i.e. an average human. SO that needs fixing
And no mini that's 40mm tall is 35mm to the eye unless they are 25% head . SG seem to be using correct proportions so that would be around 37.5mm to the eyes for an average human. As they've only shown one human I have o idea if he's the normal or tall and all the other figures are larger. So that also needs fixing.
So average humans are 40mm in height in their game. Don't mention 35mm 'anywhere' cos it has nothing to do with anything unless they have decided to measure minis to their chins.
( FAQ also still says HIPS, when it's resin now)
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Post by: Icearrow
Well, Sayx aint average humans
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Post by: Artemis Black
*laugh* They changed the material part of the FAQ but not the scale part.
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Post by: scadianforlife
Artemis, are you familiar with O scale? My wife's hobby is model trains. O Scale is not exact. According to wiki:
Scale 7 mm to 1 ft –
6.35 mm to 1 ft
Here's the web address: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O_scale
Last I checked 6.8 is between 7and 6.35, correct? I agree it's on the smaller side.
Average height of a MALE (to be precise) is 1.77 meters (5' 10") in the USA. The FEMALE of our specie clocks in at 163.2 meters (5' 8") in the USA.
My source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_height#Average_height_around_the_world
I would love to see your souce though as it will come in handy in one of my calculations.
I believe SG is using an interesting scale, trying to carve out a niche for themselves. If eye level is at 35mm, then to the top of the head on a MALE mini would be roughly 38mm or 39mm, correct? Maybe they got 40mm by adding armor, caps, spikes?
I will as them how they got to their scale number. Automatically Appended Next Post: I sent your remarks to SG, I want to see how they respond.
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Post by: Artemis Black
scadianforlife wrote:Artemis, are you familiar with O scale? My wife's hobby is model trains. O Scale is not exact. According to wiki:
Scale 7 mm to 1 ft –
6.35 mm to 1 ft
Here's the web address: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O_scale
Last I checked 6.8 is between 7and 6.35, correct? I agree it's on the smaller side.
Average height of a MALE (to be precise) is 1.77 meters (5' 10") in the USA. The FEMALE of our specie clocks in at 163.2 meters (5' 8") in the USA.
My source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_height#Average_height_around_the_world
I would love to see your souce though as it will come in handy in one of my calculations.
I believe SG is using an interesting scale, trying to carve out a niche for themselves. If eye level is at 35mm, then to the top of the head on a MALE mini would be roughly 38mm or 39mm, correct? Maybe they got 40mm by adding armor, caps, spikes?
I will as them how they got to their scale number.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I sent your remarks to SG, I want to see how they respond.
I think you misunderstood a couple of bits sorry. I wasn't making any statements of my own, about specific averages of human height or the vaguaries of o gauge etc I was just restating their FAQ.
We know their human guy is roughly 40mm tall, from the images. Which correlates perfectly with their statement that they are 'o gauge and using 7mm to 1ft'. That would make the human an average sized guy whether he's 40 or 41mm etc. So far so good.
However "7mm to 1ft" is 'not' the same scale as "35mm to the eyes". As that would clearly make the average human male 5ft to the eyes. which is ridiculous.
The 6,8ft thing is a typo, 1.8m is 5.8ft or 5ft 10 inches. i.e. it should say 5.8 not 6.8.
A typo is perfectly understandable, especially as their English is not perfect, but it hasn't been corrected and it makes things more complicated as it currently reads that a 6.8ft man is 40mm which means a 6ft man is down around 35mm to top of head which is not their scale but makes things much more confusing when 35mm is also said elsehwere.
By all available evidence, including word from Scale Games themselves, this is a 40mm game. Everyone in the mini industry would call a game that has 40mm humans in it a 40mm game and in a couple of places Scale Games have. They just seem to have a problem writing that in the correct place and I have no idea why.
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Post by: scadianforlife
They just seem to have a problem writing that in the correct place and I have no idea why.
You and me both. I have already told them to be careful with their words since that faux pax with the material. I will keep prsssing them for both of us.
40mm, though....that is quite a unique scale. Few minis in that range. Mostly historical if memory serves.
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Post by: Artemis Black
scadianforlife wrote:
They just seem to have a problem writing that in the correct place and I have no idea why.
You and me both. I have already told them to be careful with their words since that faux pax with the material. I will keep prsssing them for both of us.
40mm, though....that is quite a unique scale. Few minis in that range. Mostly historical if memory serves.
Indeed, and despite a bunch of photos of their minis stood in the open corners of existing scenery sets it will cause problems for people in that respect too. At best you'll be using what used to be chest height guard rails as thigh high handrails on GW style scenery and on larger sets like Deadzone they'll still be a little precarious.
(Anyone want to measure a doorway on any of their scenery and see if 45mm+ minis on bases will fit through them cos the Ares guys in suits and some of the aliens are taller than humans and bases are 3mm thick too?)
Which is why them saying '35mm' but presenting 40mm was an issue. 35mm to the top of the head would fit in ok with Infinity for example, they'd be a couple mm taller but nothing obscene. These most definitely will not.
Even gameplay wise these minis are about 20-25% larger than GW, or PP or Infinity and it's Sci-fi so has the game compensated with movement rates and gun ranges etc? (i really don't know, I only scanned the rules and noticed there weren't many of them) With a 30mm game a 4ft wide table represent roughly 244ft across, in this game the same table only represents 174ft. That's the kind of difference the rules would need to compensate for or everyone would need a bigger table
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Post by: Riquende
I'm not going to ask what scale this is... also not sure how you go about getting one. 'Waiting for retail' probably the safest bet!
I liked it at first glance, but looking at it a bit more it seems way over-designed (for a military vehicle), and I don't like the small-large wheel setup. Makes it look like a Tonka toy.
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Post by: Pilgrim_uk
As Artemis has pointed out the scale can be a factor also in other ways. The difference between 1/35 and 1/32 can be quite telling between manufacturers if you want to mix and match pieces in a dioramas. (Have tried and it is noticeable) Luckily Manufacturers can have their own ideas on scale. look at the difference between medicoms 1/6 and sideshows 1/6.
At near enough 1/48 scale you could probably get away with some of the plastic model stuff. Which is 35mm to the eyes. with a hat or helmet taking it to near enough 37/38mm.
I imagine some folk could mod some modern 1/48 armoured pieces to work with the FF pieces. Just don't expect it all to work.
Also on scale look at Mierce's range of figures while a 30mm game how many of its figures are 40mm+ Does it bother its players? anybody playtested it?
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Post by: scadianforlife
@Pilgrim, @Artemis
I got this response:
We said in comments that next figure will be shown with a scale to check the size.
I missed that comment while I was with a client. Somthing about they will have a ruler beside a model.
We will wait until then.
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Post by: Artemis Black
scadianforlife wrote:@Pilgrim, @Artemis
I got this response:
We said in comments that next figure will be shown with a scale to check the size.
I missed that comment while I was with a client. Somthing about they will have a ruler beside a model.
We will wait until then.
Ah well, you tried.
To me it seems like they aren't learning from their mistakes. It shouldn't take 2 weeks to post a photo of a mini next to a ruler, it shouldn't take 2 hours. When you combine that delay with things like the FAQ , the original '35mm scale claim', photoshopping of larger than 25mm bases onto their minis and renders, using 75mm figures in advertising, even their new resin figure has been shopped out of whatever background it was etc. It really just looks bad.
It doesn't matter if it's just because they don't understand they aren't doing it very well or if they are in fact being dodgy, it 'looks' dodgy, and perception is incredibly important.
They really need to hire someone to actually interact with the public who has the information necessary to give a straight answer to a straight question. They've either set out to be misleading or they have bungled this badly, I have no idea which, but they aren't going to start skyrocketing through goals again until they stop.
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Post by: scadianforlife
They really need to hire someone to actually interact with the public who has the information necessary to give a straight answer to a straight question.
+1 to that.
Why don't you apply? You've been around the block. Can you speak Spanish? Castillian? You would be great at it.
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Post by: Artemis Black
scadianforlife wrote:
They really need to hire someone to actually interact with the public who has the information necessary to give a straight answer to a straight question.
+1 to that.
Why don't you apply? You've been around the block. Can you speak Spanish? Castillian? You would be great at it.
*laugh* Well I kinda have that job for someone else right now and even if I didn't, my bet is that is that my application would be printed out on hundreds of small soft sheets of paper
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Post by: scadianforlife
Artemis Black wrote: scadianforlife wrote:
They really need to hire someone to actually interact with the public who has the information necessary to give a straight answer to a straight question.
+1 to that.
Why don't you apply? You've been around the block. Can you speak Spanish? Castillian? You would be great at it.
*laugh* Well I kinda have that job for someone else right now and even if I didn't, my bet is that is that my application would be printed out on hundreds of small soft sheets of paper
See if we can convince Aplharius, or even Cincy?
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Post by: Artemis Black
scadianforlife wrote: Artemis Black wrote: scadianforlife wrote:
They really need to hire someone to actually interact with the public who has the information necessary to give a straight answer to a straight question.
+1 to that.
Why don't you apply? You've been around the block. Can you speak Spanish? Castillian? You would be great at it.
*laugh* Well I kinda have that job for someone else right now and even if I didn't, my bet is that is that my application would be printed out on hundreds of small soft sheets of paper
See if we can convince Aplharius, or even Cincy?
I think one of the weirdest things was someone in the comments introduced themselves as the person in charge of social media for them. No offence to that guy but Jesus. I hope he does something more useful for them as well
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Post by: zreef
:( it keeps shrinking. I am hopeful they create a pledge with just the characters. Unfortunately no one in my area is looking to pick it up to play so it will be a painting project for me.
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Post by: Alpharius
Zreef - what part of the USA are you in?
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Post by: Sean_OBrien
scadianforlife wrote:Artemis, are you familiar with O scale? My wife's hobby is model trains. O Scale is not exact. According to wiki:
Scale 7 mm to 1 ft –
6.35 mm to 1 ft
Here's the web address: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O_scale
Last I checked 6.8 is between 7and 6.35, correct? I agree it's on the smaller side.
Average height of a MALE (to be precise) is 1.77 meters (5' 10") in the USA. The FEMALE of our specie clocks in at 163.2 meters (5' 8") in the USA.
My source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_height#Average_height_around_the_world
I would love to see your souce though as it will come in handy in one of my calculations.
I believe SG is using an interesting scale, trying to carve out a niche for themselves. If eye level is at 35mm, then to the top of the head on a MALE mini would be roughly 38mm or 39mm, correct? Maybe they got 40mm by adding armor, caps, spikes?
I will as them how they got to their scale number.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I sent your remarks to SG, I want to see how they respond.
Keep in mind that O scale is not a scale - it is a size like 28mm is not a scale it is a size. North American O scale (more accurately Gauge) is 1/48 scale. However, Lionel toy trains O Gauge is 1/43.5. British O Gauge is generally 1/43.5 - which is likely what they are basing their O Gauge off. Many of the continental Europe O Gauge Manufacturers have switched to 1/45 for their O Gauge scale as it splits the difference between the 1/48 and the 1/43.5. Japan and much of East Asia uses 1/45 and 1/50 as their O Gauge scale. Using O Scale (or Gauge) as an indicator of anything really isn't much more helpful than saying 28mm as it still leaves a lot of variation in terms of the actual size of the figure. 1/48 scale (or 1/43 scale...) is much more useful as that allows you to do some simple math and know how big things are.
That said - the 35mm to the eye thing isn't too far off. I stand at a bit over 6 foot, and when I am bare foot - my eye is right at 66" above the floor. At 1/48 scale that would make me 34.925 mm to the eyes. Roughly 38 mm tall. In 1/43.5 (the particular scale that they are using for their O) I would be 42 mm to the top of my head and 39 mm to the eye. Throw a pair of combat boots on me and it adds solid inch to my height (bringing the numbers to almost 43 and 40). Not a huge guy - but above average in terms of our current physiology.
So, in a round about way - them saying (initially) that they were 35mm would work for them if there was confusion within their own staff regarding which O Scale they were using (not too uncommon...because, as I mentioned already - O is a size, not a scale). One person who is writing everything up thinks O equals 1/48 and that would put them at 35mm figure size. The person who is actually sculpting and dealing with the prints thinks O is 1/43 and closer to a 38mm figure size. By the time they go live and realize what had happened - they need to decide should they go 1/43.5 or 1/48? It isn't really a lie, just confusion in their own ranks (not too different than the confusion sown by 28mm...).
Hopefully they make grounds and do actually keep to a scale (any scale...) - though for me, would have preferred 1/48 scale. Although both have resources available, you have more within 1/48 scale (from historical models to things like the Star Wars and BSG models) that people could use to dress up their game boards. Neither of them would be terribly unique sizes though. 35mm (1/48 O Gauge) is used by a half dozen somewhat significant manufacturers and items from within other ranges fall there accidently from time to time (even though they are often sold as being 32 or even 30mm figures). 40mm or 1/43.5 scale O Gauge is pretty common in historical circles and a lot of companies that do one shot characters for painters and collectors produce figures in that size as well.
I will say that for those who are concerned about their 28mm heroic terrain not matching up too well - it isn't really nearly as bad as you might think. The plastic bases which are commonly used on miniatures are around 2.5-3mm thick. When you throw a heroic 28mm on one of those they end up being 35mm tall for regular figures and many of them being close to 40mm. If you use a low profile (0.5-1mm) base with a 1/48 scale figure they are only a mm or two taller (and for "average" actually shorter than some of those). Granted if you put that taller figure on a tall base, then it would be a problem.
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Post by: zreef
WNY area, closest person is in Rochester (based on going through all the backers) and that is an hour drive for me.
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Post by: Alpharius
Well, if you're ever in the Boston area we'll have to get a game of FALLEN FRONTIERS in!
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Post by: zreef
Alpharius wrote:Well, if you're ever in the Boston area we'll have to get a game of FALLEN FRONTIERS in!
Sounds good, but first some Infinity as that is my all time fav.
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Post by: Piston Honda
I'm in upstate new york, near the PA boarder.
Where are you?
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Post by: Alpharius
zreef wrote: Alpharius wrote:Well, if you're ever in the Boston area we'll have to get a game of FALLEN FRONTIERS in!
Sounds good, but first some Infinity as that is my all time fav.
Fine by me - INFINITY first, then FF!
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Post by: zreef
Has Scale mentioned roughly how many miniatures would be necessary to play a "normal" sized game of FF?
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Post by: Artemis Black
zreef wrote:Has Scale mentioned roughly how many miniatures would be necessary to play a "normal" sized game of FF?
15-30 miniatures apparently.
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Post by: Alpharius
This one continues to yo-yo up and down right near the (re)funding level.
Odd...
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Post by: AlexHolker
Alpharius wrote:This one continues to yo-yo up and down right near the (re)funding level.
Odd...
It might be the core of true believers doubling down in response to the drop. That would explain the total rebounding slightly yesterday despite the drop in backers.
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Post by: Alpharius
New Update:
Update #33
Jun 14 2014
New Faction Pledges and Add-ons
Comment
2 likes
Hi all.
Considering your requests we have decided to create a new pledge for those of you that wanted to purchase a single faction and also have access to Stretch Goals. Furthermore from now on you can purchase heroes included in the starter packs for the amount of 5 pounds. With this we hope to meet the expectations of all those painters who wanted easy access to those extraordinary miniatures of characters.
Thanks for your support
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Post by: zreef
That update might have an inverse effect initially as people pledge shuffle to get better deals. ... looks like it dropped some more :(
New backers will boost it back up eventually, but near term pledges like that tend to hurt.
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Post by: Alpharius
In the past 4 days, they've lost 40 backers and about £6000, but...they're #1 on the Kicktraq Top 10?
In the past 4 days, Dust: Operation Babylon has gained 60 backers and about £18000 and they're...#6?
I'm at a loss as to why this one's bleeding backers and funds still.
The resin sample looked great, PVC is confirmed out, in house casting if confirmed in...
Everything looks good...though I'll admit that I'm not a fan of any of the vehicles so far.
Huh.
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Post by: zreef
I have heard you can pay to have your ranking improved in the rankings (this might be complete hog wash so take with massive amounts of salt).
At this stage my guess is the ebay resellers, those looking for lots of minis per $, and impulse pledgers are bleeding away.
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Post by: Alpharius
It should still comfortably fund, but SG need to do some serious work/cleanup/clarification on their front page!
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Post by: edlowe
I know Scale check out this thread so does anybody have any constructive suggestions for how they could improve the ks page?
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Post by: zreef
It maybe worthwhile to cancel and restart with all the information and pledge information updated ... say in two week or so. That would give them time to breathe, take a good hard look at what the issues where, relaunch with a crisp and clear english translation. Thoughts?
That maybe the difference between barely funding and knocking it out of the park.
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