fryfryfry wrote: I assume those with the most gripes play 1850 and only 1850 lists? So tourney folk. If so, sorry.
None of the new Formation Detachments appear to cater to that crowd even though some are quite doable. It's obvious the intent is for bigger and bigger games (meaning the purchase of more and more models).
Its gotta be, cuz even at 2K this thing isn't exactly friendly.
These Ork formations seem to be more about making you buy units that you normally don't have, as opposed to actually making the units useful...which seems silly, since rules play a big role in sales.
I don't get GW's philosophy when it comes to Orks.
Why can't you take Ghaz as a lord of war from a CAD and attach him to a unit in the orcurion?
The orcurion says that if the detatchment "contains" your warlord he can call waaaaghs every turn. Does joining a unit in a detachment mean the detatchment "contains" the warlord? If so you don't need the council.
This Ghaz/Crapcurion is quite interesting if you really look at it for what it is.
Just look at a CAD this will get you
2HQ,3Elite,3Fast,3 Heavy,1Low
on top of that you can have formations.
Not lets look at the update. And ignore all the formations since they are filled with things that don't get any benefit from the bonuses of the detachment or are crap.
This detachment doesnt force you into combining traditional units like the SM or Necron one does.
Each unit entry in the ork codex of the Elite, Fast, Heavy and LoW slot + grots can be taken separately as an aux slot as long as you take a really expensive formation. And you can only take 1 HQ on top of your warlord outside formations
So all this thing really does is allows you to add up all the other slots (3+3+3+1 = 10 ) and give you a bonus in trade of including one of the 2 large formations.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
JimOnMars wrote: How do you know? IC's can normally join any unit.
They can and it makes you part of a unit, but a joining a unit does not make you part of a detachment. If you want to fight this out open up a you make da call I am sure you will be able to have a 20 page long interesting discussion there.
rules regarding formations and ICs not bought within the formation do not share. Ghaz can still be brought in a CAD and be your warlord, but since he was not purchased within the formations he doesnt qualify for the "if this detachment contains your warlord...." requirement so he cant perma-waaagh or waaagh first turn. Formations, CADs, and allied detachments are completely separate entities as far as rules are concerned.
Theres a lot of shenanigans people would pull off if what youre suggesting was legal.
Ghaz, Painboy, Mek, Big Mek, Warboss and MANZ all in the Battlewagon together.
Giving a Fearless, Waaagh every turn, Trukk Rush list.
Ghaz will now have a 2++ every turn, from turn 1, with a 5+ FNP, and plenty of characters to soak up challenges with a +1 on their WS thanks to DLS. The BW will enjoy the 5++, and the unit will also have 2+, 5++ and 5+ FNP, with MANZ who can run and charge every turn.
This turn Ghaz into an absolute monster, with Eternal warrior, stick him out front to soak up everything upto, and including, D weapons. Even if Ghaz gets hit in the face with a D deathblow, he will only take 1 wound thanks to eternal warrior, and if the painboy is still allive, he'll get 5+ FNP.
Plus all troops have Obj Sec thanks to the CAD.
Not the worst thing to happen.
Unless of course the thing about CAD Ghaz not being a part of the Waaagh-Band! Then it's garbage. Ho Hum.
Yep, you are right, there's no getting around it. You need Ghaz to be Warlord of the Detachment, and he can't be if he's warlord of the CAD. But luckily, not everyone at my FLGS will know that, might be able to TFG (for cheating and general dickery) with Orks!!!
Ghaz, Painboy, Mek, Big Mek, Warboss and MANZ all in the Battlewagon together.
Giving a Fearless, Waaagh every turn, Trukk Rush list.
Ghaz will now have a 2++ every turn, from turn 1, with a 5+ FNP, and plenty of characters to soak up challenges with a +1 on their WS thanks to DLS. The BW will enjoy the 5++, and the unit will also have 2+, 5++ and 5+ FNP, with MANZ who can run and charge every turn.
This turn Ghaz into an absolute monster, with Eternal warrior, stick him out front to soak up everything upto, and including, D weapons. Even if Ghaz gets hit in the face with a D deathblow, he will only take 1 wound thanks to eternal warrior, and if the painboy is still allive, he'll get 5+ FNP.
Plus all troops have Obj Sec thanks to the CAD.
Not the worst thing to happen.
Unless of course the thing about CAD Ghaz not being a part of the Waaagh-Band! Then it's garbage. Ho Hum.
Yeah, it's garbage. Ghaz needs to be part of the detachment to Waaagh! every turn.
Why couldn't Ghaz just be taken in place of the Warlord in a Warband/Kill Mob? That, that would have been OK. I could work with that.
This book contains special rules, Warlord Traits, relics, a Detachment and Formations, Altar of War missions and Tactical Objectives that reflect the fighting style of Waaagh! Ghazghkull. You can add the Detachment and Formations from this section to an existing army, or use them to field an army from Waaagh! Ghazghkull itself.
Waaagh! Ghazghkull Special Rules
If you use the Formations or the Great Waaagh!-band Detachment in this book, the following supplemental special rules apply to all of the units they contain.
Biggest an’ da Best
As Ghazghkull repeatedly proved during his meteoric rise to become the deadliest Ork in the galaxy, not only does it help to regularly remind everyone who the biggest, meanest and ’ardest of them all is, but giving an enemy champion a good kicking serves as a great warm-up for the brawls to come.
This special rule only applies to a Warlord chosen as part of a Detachment or Formation presented in this book. If your Warlord has this special rule, he must always issue and accept a challenge whenever possible. If you have more than one model in a combat with a special rule to this effect, you can choose which model issues or accepts the challenge. If a Warlord with this special rule kills an enemy character in a challenge, he can re-roll all failed To Wound rolls in close combat for the rest of the game.
Da Boss iz Watchin’
The Orks of Waaagh! Ghazghkull are known for their unusual levels of discipline, instilled if not by Ghazghkull himself, then by his subordinates. These canny leaders have been subjected to, or have witnessed, enough of the Big Boss’ clobberings to know better than to let the ladz get too carried away, and will crack heads even harder to keep them in line.
Units with the Mob Rule special rule (see Codex: Orks) that include at least one model from this Detachment or Formation gain a +2 modifier to any rolls on the Mob Rule table. However, should any of these units suffer hits from the Breaking Heads or Squabble results on the Mob Rule table, they will suffer D3+3 Strength 4 AP- hits instead of D6 Strength 4 AP- hits.
Orkimedes’ Kustom Gubbinz
Any units from a Detachment or Formation presented in this book that can select Gifts of Gork and Mork can select an item from Orkimedes’ Kustom Gubbinz, presented opposite, at the points costs shown, in addition to the Gifts of Gork and Mork from Codex: Orks.
Automatically Appended Next Post: This part is also copied
The Forces of Waaagh! Ghazghkull
Choosing An Army
When choosing an army to play a game of Warhammer 40,000, there are two main ways of organising your collection. These are the Unbound method, which means taking whichever units you like, and the Battle-forged method, which is more rigid but has extra benefits. Both are described fully in Warhammer 40,000: The Rules.
If you are using the Unbound method, simply use the datasheets that correspond to the models in your collection. If you are using the Battle-forged method, you will instead need to organise the Ork models in your collection into Detachments. This is a fun process in its own right. The most common of these are the Combined Arms and Allied Detachments. Note that you can also include any of the Formations presented in this section as part of a Battle-forged army.
The Great Waaagh!-band Detachment you can see below can be included in any Ork Battle-forged army. Unlike the Detachments shown in Warhammer 40,000: The Rules, it has a Force Organisation Chart whose slots are a combination of Formations and Army List Entries instead of Battlefield Roles. However, it still has compulsory and optional elements, as well as Restrictions and Command Benefits, just like any other Detachment.
Although units cannot normally belong to more than one Detachment, units from a Formation that is part of a Great Waaagh!-band Detachment are an exception. They count as part of both their Formation and the Detachment, and have all associated Command Benefits and special rules. If your Warlord is part of a Formation or an Army List Entry that makes up part of a Great Waaagh!-band Detachment, that entire Detachment is your Primary Detachment.
Restrictions:
This Detachment must include at least one Core choice. For each Core choice you must include between 1 and 10 Auxiliary choices (in any combination) and up to one Command choice. Only the datasheets listed here may be included in this Detachment. The Great Waaagh!-band is a Ghazghkull Detachment as described on page 52.
Command Benefits:
Biggest an’ da Best (pg 52), Da Boss iz Watchin’ (pg 52).
Da Big Boss: If this Detachment is chosen as your Primary Detachment, you can choose to re-roll the result on the Warlord Traits table.
Da Great Waaagh!: If this Detachment contains your Warlord and he has the Waaagh! special rule, he can call a Waaagh! each and every turn, including the first turn.
Da Green Horde: Every unit with 10 or more models in this Detachment gains the Hammer of Wrath special rule in any Assault phase in which it successfully charges an enemy unit. Note that it does not matter if the unit’s size is reduced below 10 models during its charge (as a result of Overwatch, Dangerous Terrain tests, etc.) so long as it can still successfully make the charge.
Core1+
Auxiliary1-10 per Core
Command0-1 per Core
Automatically Appended Next Post: So taking Ghaz from a CAD does not make him getting to Waaagh every turn. The warlord must be chosen from the Waaagh Ghazkull supplement
JimOnMars wrote: You don't have to be "part of" the detachment...only "contained" by it.
Yea, I'm being a dick, but if it flies...
Sure he can be part of he unit but never the detachment. So ghaz would never gain detachments rules beyond the detachment you buy him from. He can call a waaggh but only once as the warlord. Hence why the rule said a warlord chosen from this detachment making it fairly clear where the warlord must come from.
The only rule that spills between formation and cad is the perma WAAGH since that is an army-wide thing to begin with, and it doesnt put a limiter (thank god) that only the formation benefits from every turn WAAGH!
Object Secured is a rule purchased along with taking a CAD akin to the every-turn-waagh the formations give. The CAD has it, not the formation. (speaking of which, thats another BS that orks got shafted by. There are formations that get Object Secured despite its suppose to be a CAD thing, i can fully understand Tau not having it but why the fething hell doesnt Orks get it?)
Ghazzy cannot call his waagh every turn unless you buy the council, because he is not part of the formation thus your warlord is not part of the formation.
I can bring Shadowsun with my Tau formations for a simple tax of a solo Bodyguard Crisis Suit (which with the duo guns and 5pt support is 67pts, hey i got my melta-bomb suicide suit!). I seriously dont freakin' get why i cant take Ghazzy for the tax of a Nob or MAN squad for orks. The ork changes once again scream an attempt at NOT giving a codex insane power. Its not like they cant kill anything, they just cant get to them because they die faster than any other codex across the board because everyone else has ridiculous rules that come stock and ignore what few we have. This kind of balance would be fine if everyone got the same damn treatment. I was actually pleased with the ork codex when it first came out since it was overall pretty good with only a few glaring issues - then every single codex release/update after it casually screwed it over more than they already did.
Command - Council of Da Waaagh! - 904pts Big Mek, MA, KFF - 125pts
Ghaz
Mad Dok
Nobz, Battlewagon, Reinforced Ram, Big Shoota - 194pts
Warboss, MA - 100pts
Warboss, MA - 100pts
fryfryfry wrote: I think what we're missing here is it SHOULD be expensive if you want to take Ghazghkull. He doesn't just waaagh around with any band of Orks.
Think Armageddon size fights not 1850-point skirmishes.
So while Necrons and SM can use their Legions and Eldar can use their supply of fallen warriors, we should be thinking bigger is better because we're Orks?
Absolutely, which is why we had the back straining Green Tide as our previous primary killer formation. Nothing unreasonable about compelling a faction to bring as many models as you can physically fit onto a table surface.
No, definitely nothing wrong with that at all. ;-)
r_squared wrote: Absolutely, which is why we had the back straining Green Tide as our previous primary killer formation. Nothing unreasonable about compelling a faction to bring as many models as you can physically fit onto a table surface.
No, definitely nothing wrong with that at all. ;-)
Well if thats what we are supposed to be doing then we should have a Formation that creates Boyz squads! Every turn a squad of 30 Sluggas or 20 Shootas automatically comes in from Reserves, and they have Outflank! Ill take 4 of these formations and literally drown my opponent in minis!!!
In all seriousness i've pretty well given up on GW, when my 6th ed Sisters book functions better than my Orks book (remember that they where on of the Big Four) its time to start homebrewing.
I think what everyone is forgetting is that (according to GamesWorkshop) we all buy GamesWorkshop models because they are such great models, not because anyone ever actually plays their game (according to GamesWorkshop). The rules are really arbitrary when you see it GamesWorkshop's way (or should I say ModelsWorkshop's way?) because they're really a model company, not a game company.
Command - Council of Da Waaagh! - 904pts Big Mek, MA, KFF - 125pts
Ghaz
Mad Dok
Nobz, Battlewagon, Reinforced Ram, Big Shoota - 194pts
Warboss, MA - 100pts
Warboss, MA - 100pts
Total 1847
I prefer the fantasy list myself.
I completely agree the longer I look at it the more it becomes apperent that the only problem is tthe council of da waaagh!
No way that that unit is worth 900 points. Yes you will kill those fist line of fire warriors but then you will have to face 900 points of suits shooting t you. My guess is that you will not survive this for a single turn.
Frozocrone, no, not at all. I don't think we should see a Phoenix Lord in an 1850 game nor Calgar for SM. As a Necron player, I'm not dropping Imotekh in my small games. And I'm not one of those double Canoptek Harvest guys either.
I just think people are so obsessed with 1850. If that's the only action some people can get, I feel for them. But there's more than just that. You can build some killer armies with this ... just beyond 1850.
I played Orks per 2000 and they are my first love. The game was very different back then, sure, but I've never looked at Orks as a "power" army.
Also, this is technically the Ghazghkull Detachment. I guess we'll have to wait and see what an actual Ork one might look like (or the IA update).
FryFry this seems all cool and thematic. But releasing an fluffy high points only detachment it is kinda harsh when your army desperately needs an update in order to see the light of day.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I can think of no game type in which that council of the waagh would be good thing to field. Even in appoc scale battles it would be horrible.
fryfryfry wrote: Frozocrone, no, not at all. I don't think we should see a Phoenix Lord in an 1850 game nor Calgar for SM. As a Necron player, I'm not dropping Imotekh in my small games. And I'm not one of those double Canoptek Harvest guys either.
I just think people are so obsessed with 1850. If that's the only action some people can get, I feel for them. But there's more than just that. You can build some killer armies with this ... just beyond 1850.
I played Orks per 2000 and they are my first love. The game was very different back then, sure, but I've never looked at Orks as a "power" army.
Also, this is technically the Ghazghkull Detachment. I guess we'll have to wait and see what an actual Ork one might look like (or the IA update).
Maybe so. But most places are adopting the ITC in the USA and in the UK we don't have 2k games usually, they are 1.5k max.
Trying to squeeze the Orkurion in that many points and optimize it is a stretch. Meanwhile my SM and Necron toting friends can use their stuff willy nilly (admittedly a stretch for SM).
Can warlords still re roll warlord powers on the ork list if in a Gazcurion or only on the hrrible ghaz list. If they can take the Ork then we should have 2 chances of rolling prophet of the waaagh.
We don't need Ghaz for that just his warlord trait.
2 warlord traits with re-rolls would likely see you get prophet of da waaagh, so you don't need ghaz for that.
It's just disappointing to be so close. If Ghaz was available as a warlord, outside of the council, then GW would probably struggle to keep him on the shelves.
With that single move, orks could have been making in roads back towards being a competitive codex. Alas, it was not to be.
I will say, this detachment kinda breaks my personal rebalance for Orks, since I gave all Warbosses the prophet of the Waaagh effect as a special rule instead of as a Warlord trait...
Finkin' Kap only gives you one Strategic Trait, its not any trait, and its not rerollable either.
Bare in mind you are restricted to one Gift of Gork and Mork, which means no Lucky Stikk for your warlord. And Finkin' Kap has to be on your warlord.
Like ive said in the past, its such a lame limiter that we can only get 1 relic in the normal dex. All of them are average to gimicky EXCEPT the stikk, which is insanely good. Since Painboyz cant take any and Big Meks typically dont have a use for them, nothing except the Stikk gets used.
Vineheart01 wrote: Finkin' Kap only gives you one Strategic Trait, its not any trait, and its not rerollable either.
Bare in mind you are restricted to one Gift of Gork and Mork, which means no Lucky Stikk for your warlord. And Finkin' Kap has to be on your warlord.
Like ive said in the past, its such a lame limiter that we can only get 1 relic in the normal dex. All of them are average to gimicky EXCEPT the stikk, which is insanely good. Since Painboyz cant take any and Big Meks typically dont have a use for them, nothing except the Stikk gets used.
Big reason why i removed it in my rewrite, and why most people remove it in theres. Most Codexes only limit you on weapons, since you only have so many to trade out, otherwise go nuts. I mean i could have a Dominus with Anzions Psudogenator, Raiment of the Technomatyr, Autodecadeus of Arhkan Land and the Scryerskull Percepticus, but that would just be silly. And expensive.
Vineheart01 wrote: True, but he has to be your warlord to use the finkin' kap in the first place. Its a footnote.
Considering that almost every tactic, getting the Waaagh! is make or break, not having a warboss warlord is suicide.
Yeah, Waaagh is based around units that can use it, and the only power house unit we use that can run is tankbustas.
For those that use mega nobz and bikes it is a foot note and it is a better strategy to have a hiding bigmek with da thinkin kap.
Is there any info known about a potential second Wulfen campaign book and what might be in it? Is it too much to hope that this Waaagh Ghazghkull! update is to pre-empt a Codex: Orks update in the next campaign book?
GoonBandito wrote: Is there any info known about a potential second Wulfen campaign book and what might be in it? Is it too much to hope that this Waaagh Ghazghkull! update is to pre-empt a Codex: Orks update in the next campaign book?
GoonBandito wrote: Is there any info known about a potential second Wulfen campaign book and what might be in it? Is it too much to hope that this Waaagh Ghazghkull! update is to pre-empt a Codex: Orks update in the next campaign book?
I would guess no. This supliment has "give them a bone to shut them up " written all over it. This isn't like some tau release where orks are the focus for a few months, its a footnote of the release schedule.
I wouldn't expect an ork codex until 8th edition. Our only hope is FW maybe rereleaseing IA8.
That's actually a decent formation but it's costly and limiting in 1500-1850 games. I'm honestly surprised they added 3 new air formations. WarBikes had so much potential.
I'm curious to know what the rest of the formation bonuses are - particularly the two core options.
I'm not expecting much, but the orkcurion has already exceeded expectations by simply existing, so I'd like to know more at least.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vineheart01 wrote: True, but he has to be your warlord to use the finkin' kap in the first place. Its a footnote.
Are you sure about that? My read is that the wearer simply generates a warlord trait from the strategic table - it doesn't say he has to be your warlord. I guess normally warlords normally generate traits, but the finkin' cap specifically allows the wearer to generate one.
I guess if he does have to be the warlord, I've been doing it wrong for a LOOOOONG time, which may well be the case. Very disappointing if so, as it's a rock-solid relic for 10 points on a big mek.
Kap'n Krump wrote: I'm curious to know what the rest of the formation bonuses are - particularly the two core options.
I'm not expecting much, but the orkcurion has already exceeded expectations by simply existing, so I'd like to know more at least.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vineheart01 wrote: True, but he has to be your warlord to use the finkin' kap in the first place. Its a footnote.
Are you sure about that? My read is that the wearer simply generates a warlord trait from the strategic table - it doesn't say he has to be your warlord. I guess normally warlords normally generate traits, but the finkin' cap specifically allows the wearer to generate one.
I guess if he does have to be the warlord, I've been doing it wrong for a LOOOOONG time, which may well be the case. Very disappointing if so, as it's a rock-solid relic for 10 points on a big mek.
Yep, da thinkin kap is exclusively a warlord item, in the upgrades page it has a footnote.
Also, the benefits if the 2 core did not change from what I understand. The warband is the exact same bonuses the decurian gets, and the Goff mob gets fear and reroll charges.
Disappointed as I am, now that perma 2+ invuln. ghazzy exists I'll try it out just to see how it does, its just a pity that such a chance to inject new life and competitive fluffy flavour into Orks lists was wasted.
I think i'll try:
-stock Waagh band (well.. just PK /EA and Finkin kap to the warboss)
-Stock Dreadmob
That would be just under 1850. (with 2k i add kff, and trukks for a mob or 2),
Dreadmob waaghing all game long, I want to see That, hopefully making them very mobile. And use all those MSU boys to screen, block charge lanes, and hold objectives.
XC18 wrote: I think i'll try:
-stock Waagh band (well.. just PK /EA and Finkin kap to the warboss)
-Stock Dreadmob
That would be just under 1850. (with 2k i add kff, and trukks for a mob or 2),
Dreadmob waaghing all game long, I want to see That, hopefully making them very mobile. And use all those MSU boys to screen, block charge lanes, and hold objectives.
That sounds pretty cool, a dreadmob being able to run and charge alongside boyz sounds downright nasty, might give deff dreadz a new lease on life. Definitely will add that to the list.
Kap'n Krump wrote: I'm not expecting much, but the orkcurion has already exceeded expectations by simply existing, so I'd like to know more at least.
From the sounds of all these meh changes and extremely limited builds, I would rather no Orkturion than the one we got, since now that there is one, it is likely not to change much and orks are stuck with terrible benefits, while others get free vehicles, or free upgrades, or buffs to BS or saves.
I do make the finkin kap mek the warlord, no problem. Hide him in reserves as long as possible, and then he just hides behind a rock or dies. Beatstick HQs are long dead. If they want to kill the Warlord they will.
I haven't fielded a Lucky Stikk boss ever since an AP2 flamer just toasted him no problem. Didn't get to tank a damn thing.
In any case: I am not a Goff player, but i am an Ork player and this is better news then no news.
An army of fearless orks is something i would like to play, because the current mob-rule kind of took the fun out of my favourite 40k army.
I want to be able to have playable multiple smaller units of 10 to 15 orks and this seems a way to be able to play those.
Giving the boyz orks 4+ armour is something i usually do with a couple of units anyway, but now that seems to be an even better idea, because more orks will get into close combat faster, where armour becomes more important then numbers.
I look forward to trying the new rules and i hope i will like them.
Nightlord1987 wrote: I do make the finkin kap mek the warlord, no problem. Hide him in reserves as long as possible, and then he just hides behind a rock or dies. Beatstick HQs are long dead. If they want to kill the Warlord they will.
I guess you've never met a thunderwolf lord with runic armour, storm shield, and some awesome relic weapon + fellclaw's teeth (re-rolls to hit). I run one with a wolf claw so I get re-rolls to hit AND to wound. He's often the last model on the table and once killed over half a daemon army single handedly.
Although I have been a regular in this forum, this was the first time that I really felt the urge to post - I guess you can imagine my frustration when reading about the new.. and updated.. supplement.
Instead of repeating any of the things that have already been said about the changes included in the new book, I wanted to ask if it is possible to buy the new ibook right now?
Browsing the GW shop yesterday this item appeared: Waaagh! Ghazghkull, A Codex: Orks Supplement – revised and updated (Enhanced Edition)
To be honest, I am not planing on buying it at the moment, but I guess I just wanted to know if one can buy it.
I emailed GW last week concerning this release and got a reply this morning. I'm hoping that they do pay attention (although I completely forgot to add Ghaz to my complaints) but they did reply and this is what they had to say.
My email
Spoiler:
To whom it may concern,
I have recently seen the Ork rules as published in the new updated supplement and as a customer, I am very disappointed with the treatment they have been given. I feel as if my previous books that I purchased have become obsolete, since the formations as shown in the book are copied and pasted from existing books, with minor changes (such as Rage instead of Furious Charge on Gorkanauts) It would have been nice to see a large variety of new formations as opposed to three Flyer formations that could just have easily been condensed into one, let alone the fact there already was the Skyboss Wingnutz formation. There are other things that the formations and/or the units themselves need, but that is not why I am disappointed.
In addition to that, there are no new models (Grukk does not count, as he was released in Stormclaw) and no new Codex announced that would address the current problems in the army that I find keep appearing every time I use my Orks. Again, this is not why I am disappointed.
This is why I am disappointed. What should have been done, was a complete rewrite of the Codex and rules. Here are just a few of the things I can think off the top of my head that would have made me support this purchase:
1) There should have been a formation that allowed you to take multiple Painboyz/Wierdboyz/Big Meks with bonuses for each model, as opposed to only one per core. Possibly with a 4++ Feel no Pain, harness psychic powers on 3+, have free Wargear respectively.
2) Ork Boyz should not have been six units in the Warband (or three in the case of the Goff Killmob). Some people want to run more, some people want to run less. Every other super-formation (e.g. Decurion, Warhost, Hunter Contingent) has always allowed flexibility in the amount of what units and how many you can bring for your core. For example, the Necron Decurion allows you to take an Overlord which can be swapped out for a number 0-2 Monoliths, 0-3 Lychguard, 1-4 units of Immortals 1-3 units of Tomb Blades and 2-8 units of Necron Warriors.The only flexibility Orks have across their core formations is exchanging the Nobz for Meganobz and the Warboss for Grukk.
3) General re-writes to the rules that support releases. Gorkanauts/Morkanauts should have been immune to the vehicle damage chart like super heavies are, being the same size as Imperial Knights that they are. Deff Dreads should have been immune to Crew Shaken/Stunned, as well as been able to put in squadrons. Considering your company is pushing sales of Ork Walkers, having rules that are good would tempt me to part with my money.
4) As for changes in the rules of the units themselves, there are far too many to go through, but here are a few.
[a]Three Nobz with Power Klaws are more expensive than three Meganobz, with considerably worse stats.
[b] Vehicles can purchase Stikkbombs, but most units already have Stikkbombs which renders the upgrade close to useless.
[c] Red Paint Jobs forfeit a turn of shooting just to move an extra inch.
[d] Nob Bikers are more expensive than Thunderwolf Cavalry, while having worse stats.
[e] Cybork bodies can be rendered obsolete simply by adding a Painboy or Mad Dok Grotsnik to a unit.
[f] Da Boss iz Watchin' should have been +/- 2 to Mob Rule. Although Mob Rule is in itself, a bad rule due to how it works, the current form of Da Boss iz Watchin basically renders the table moot, where a D6 of 2-5 automatically results in Squabble. Not everyone wants to run thirty boyz in a squad.
Despite this, none of what I have proposed, or even something to that effect, was implemented. So that leaves the question, what encourages me and a lot of other Ork players to spend their money on this release? Simply put, very little, if anything. To me, this release shows a clear lack of knowledge and/or interest in your game, as well as what your customers want.
Suffice to say, I have become disillusioned with your company and will not be supporting this purchase.
Their reply:
Spoiler:
Hello Joseph
Thank you so much for taking the time to put down your thoughts in this email regarding the latest Ork supplement, along with what are obviously very passionate suggestions for the future of the great Waaaaagh!
We do take all feedback very seriously from our customers, so this email has been passed on to the relevant heads of departments to look into. Whilst I cannot guarantee a reply from them, or any changes, I assure you that your email will be looked into.
Thanks again for your email, and should you need anything further, please let me know
Frozocrone wrote: I emailed GW last week concerning this release and got a reply this morning. I'm hoping that they do pay attention (although I completely forgot to add Ghaz to my complaints) but they did reply and this is what they had to say.
My email
Spoiler:
To whom it may concern,
I have recently seen the Ork rules as published in the new updated supplement and as a customer, I am very disappointed with the treatment they have been given. I feel as if my previous books that I purchased have become obsolete, since the formations as shown in the book are copied and pasted from existing books, with minor changes (such as Rage instead of Furious Charge on Gorkanauts) It would have been nice to see a large variety of new formations as opposed to three Flyer formations that could just have easily been condensed into one, let alone the fact there already was the Skyboss Wingnutz formation. There are other things that the formations and/or the units themselves need, but that is not why I am disappointed.
In addition to that, there are no new models (Grukk does not count, as he was released in Stormclaw) and no new Codex announced that would address the current problems in the army that I find keep appearing every time I use my Orks. Again, this is not why I am disappointed.
This is why I am disappointed. What should have been done, was a complete rewrite of the Codex and rules. Here are just a few of the things I can think off the top of my head that would have made me support this purchase:
1) There should have been a formation that allowed you to take multiple Painboyz/Wierdboyz/Big Meks with bonuses for each model, as opposed to only one per core. Possibly with a 4++ Feel no Pain, harness psychic powers on 3+, have free Wargear respectively.
2) Ork Boyz should not have been six units in the Warband (or three in the case of the Goff Killmob). Some people want to run more, some people want to run less. Every other super-formation (e.g. Decurion, Warhost, Hunter Contingent) has always allowed flexibility in the amount of what units and how many you can bring for your core. For example, the Necron Decurion allows you to take an Overlord which can be swapped out for a number 0-2 Monoliths, 0-3 Lychguard, 1-4 units of Immortals 1-3 units of Tomb Blades and 2-8 units of Necron Warriors.The only flexibility Orks have across their core formations is exchanging the Nobz for Meganobz and the Warboss for Grukk.
3) General re-writes to the rules that support releases. Gorkanauts/Morkanauts should have been immune to the vehicle damage chart like super heavies are, being the same size as Imperial Knights that they are. Deff Dreads should have been immune to Crew Shaken/Stunned, as well as been able to put in squadrons. Considering your company is pushing sales of Ork Walkers, having rules that are good would tempt me to part with my money.
4) As for changes in the rules of the units themselves, there are far too many to go through, but here are a few.
[a]Three Nobz with Power Klaws are more expensive than three Meganobz, with considerably worse stats.
[b] Vehicles can purchase Stikkbombs, but most units already have Stikkbombs which renders the upgrade close to useless.
[c] Red Paint Jobs forfeit a turn of shooting just to move an extra inch.
[d] Nob Bikers are more expensive than Thunderwolf Cavalry, while having worse stats.
[e] Cybork bodies can be rendered obsolete simply by adding a Painboy or Mad Dok Grotsnik to a unit.
[f] Da Boss iz Watchin' should have been +/- 2 to Mob Rule. Although Mob Rule is in itself, a bad rule due to how it works, the current form of Da Boss iz Watchin basically renders the table moot, where a D6 of 2-5 automatically results in Squabble. Not everyone wants to run thirty boyz in a squad.
Despite this, none of what I have proposed, or even something to that effect, was implemented. So that leaves the question, what encourages me and a lot of other Ork players to spend their money on this release? Simply put, very little, if anything. To me, this release shows a clear lack of knowledge and/or interest in your game, as well as what your customers want.
Suffice to say, I have become disillusioned with your company and will not be supporting this purchase.
Their reply:
Spoiler:
Hello Joseph
Thank you so much for taking the time to put down your thoughts in this email regarding the latest Ork supplement, along with what are obviously very passionate suggestions for the future of the great Waaaaagh!
We do take all feedback very seriously from our customers, so this email has been passed on to the relevant heads of departments to look into. Whilst I cannot guarantee a reply from them, or any changes, I assure you that your email will be looked into.
Thanks again for your email, and should you need anything further, please let me know
Kind Regards
Sadly, cannot guarantee doth butter no parsnips!
That's certainly more of a reply than I've ever received from a customer service rep. Most of the replies I get are along the lines of 'We are disappointed with your reaction to our product', if a reply comes at all.
Still, I don't think we'll ever see decent (and by decent I don't necessarily mean powerful, I mean fun, fluffy, flexible, etc) rules for Orks, Tyranids, or CSM until someone new gets onto the design team who actually likes those armies. No designer who actually cared about Orks would release the Detachment or the Formations in the updated Supplement, at the very least they'd want to go a little more in-depth with the variety of the formations within it. The fact that the Gorkanaught is still spruiked as a viable assault transport for Nobz speaks to a paucity of understanding of how Orks work, a paucity that would almost certainly not be evident if the designer writing the rules actually knew or cared about how Orks work.
But I don't like to end on a down note - the ability to Waaagh! on every turn is actually alright, and could probably lead to some 1st turn charges. Dakkajets also benefit (though not as much as they used to *grumble grumb-* wait, gotta stay positive) and it wouldn't be too expensive I think to run a Goff Killmob and the 3 dakkajet formation. As for how competitive that ends up being...
Frozocrone wrote: I emailed GW last week concerning this release and got a reply this morning. I'm hoping that they do pay attention (although I completely forgot to add Ghaz to my complaints) but they did reply and this is what they had to say.
My email
Spoiler:
To whom it may concern,
I have recently seen the Ork rules as published in the new updated supplement and as a customer, I am very disappointed with the treatment they have been given. I feel as if my previous books that I purchased have become obsolete, since the formations as shown in the book are copied and pasted from existing books, with minor changes (such as Rage instead of Furious Charge on Gorkanauts) It would have been nice to see a large variety of new formations as opposed to three Flyer formations that could just have easily been condensed into one, let alone the fact there already was the Skyboss Wingnutz formation. There are other things that the formations and/or the units themselves need, but that is not why I am disappointed.
In addition to that, there are no new models (Grukk does not count, as he was released in Stormclaw) and no new Codex announced that would address the current problems in the army that I find keep appearing every time I use my Orks. Again, this is not why I am disappointed.
This is why I am disappointed. What should have been done, was a complete rewrite of the Codex and rules. Here are just a few of the things I can think off the top of my head that would have made me support this purchase:
1) There should have been a formation that allowed you to take multiple Painboyz/Wierdboyz/Big Meks with bonuses for each model, as opposed to only one per core. Possibly with a 4++ Feel no Pain, harness psychic powers on 3+, have free Wargear respectively.
2) Ork Boyz should not have been six units in the Warband (or three in the case of the Goff Killmob). Some people want to run more, some people want to run less. Every other super-formation (e.g. Decurion, Warhost, Hunter Contingent) has always allowed flexibility in the amount of what units and how many you can bring for your core. For example, the Necron Decurion allows you to take an Overlord which can be swapped out for a number 0-2 Monoliths, 0-3 Lychguard, 1-4 units of Immortals 1-3 units of Tomb Blades and 2-8 units of Necron Warriors.The only flexibility Orks have across their core formations is exchanging the Nobz for Meganobz and the Warboss for Grukk.
3) General re-writes to the rules that support releases. Gorkanauts/Morkanauts should have been immune to the vehicle damage chart like super heavies are, being the same size as Imperial Knights that they are. Deff Dreads should have been immune to Crew Shaken/Stunned, as well as been able to put in squadrons. Considering your company is pushing sales of Ork Walkers, having rules that are good would tempt me to part with my money.
4) As for changes in the rules of the units themselves, there are far too many to go through, but here are a few.
[a]Three Nobz with Power Klaws are more expensive than three Meganobz, with considerably worse stats.
[b] Vehicles can purchase Stikkbombs, but most units already have Stikkbombs which renders the upgrade close to useless.
[c] Red Paint Jobs forfeit a turn of shooting just to move an extra inch.
[d] Nob Bikers are more expensive than Thunderwolf Cavalry, while having worse stats.
[e] Cybork bodies can be rendered obsolete simply by adding a Painboy or Mad Dok Grotsnik to a unit.
[f] Da Boss iz Watchin' should have been +/- 2 to Mob Rule. Although Mob Rule is in itself, a bad rule due to how it works, the current form of Da Boss iz Watchin basically renders the table moot, where a D6 of 2-5 automatically results in Squabble. Not everyone wants to run thirty boyz in a squad.
Despite this, none of what I have proposed, or even something to that effect, was implemented. So that leaves the question, what encourages me and a lot of other Ork players to spend their money on this release? Simply put, very little, if anything. To me, this release shows a clear lack of knowledge and/or interest in your game, as well as what your customers want.
Suffice to say, I have become disillusioned with your company and will not be supporting this purchase.
Their reply:
Spoiler:
Hello Joseph
Thank you so much for taking the time to put down your thoughts in this email regarding the latest Ork supplement, along with what are obviously very passionate suggestions for the future of the great Waaaaagh!
We do take all feedback very seriously from our customers, so this email has been passed on to the relevant heads of departments to look into. Whilst I cannot guarantee a reply from them, or any changes, I assure you that your email will be looked into.
Thanks again for your email, and should you need anything further, please let me know
Kind Regards
Sadly, cannot guarantee doth butter no parsnips!
That's very well written feedback! I really hope that they read some of those emails. I have sent some emails in the past as well, but always got the feeling that I was communicating with a brick wall.
Frozocrone wrote: I emailed GW last week concerning this release and got a reply this morning. I'm hoping that they do pay attention (although I completely forgot to add Ghaz to my complaints) but they did reply and this is what they had to say.
My email
Spoiler:
To whom it may concern,
I have recently seen the Ork rules as published in the new updated supplement and as a customer, I am very disappointed with the treatment they have been given. I feel as if my previous books that I purchased have become obsolete, since the formations as shown in the book are copied and pasted from existing books, with minor changes (such as Rage instead of Furious Charge on Gorkanauts) It would have been nice to see a large variety of new formations as opposed to three Flyer formations that could just have easily been condensed into one, let alone the fact there already was the Skyboss Wingnutz formation. There are other things that the formations and/or the units themselves need, but that is not why I am disappointed.
In addition to that, there are no new models (Grukk does not count, as he was released in Stormclaw) and no new Codex announced that would address the current problems in the army that I find keep appearing every time I use my Orks. Again, this is not why I am disappointed.
This is why I am disappointed. What should have been done, was a complete rewrite of the Codex and rules. Here are just a few of the things I can think off the top of my head that would have made me support this purchase:
1) There should have been a formation that allowed you to take multiple Painboyz/Wierdboyz/Big Meks with bonuses for each model, as opposed to only one per core. Possibly with a 4++ Feel no Pain, harness psychic powers on 3+, have free Wargear respectively.
2) Ork Boyz should not have been six units in the Warband (or three in the case of the Goff Killmob). Some people want to run more, some people want to run less. Every other super-formation (e.g. Decurion, Warhost, Hunter Contingent) has always allowed flexibility in the amount of what units and how many you can bring for your core. For example, the Necron Decurion allows you to take an Overlord which can be swapped out for a number 0-2 Monoliths, 0-3 Lychguard, 1-4 units of Immortals 1-3 units of Tomb Blades and 2-8 units of Necron Warriors.The only flexibility Orks have across their core formations is exchanging the Nobz for Meganobz and the Warboss for Grukk.
3) General re-writes to the rules that support releases. Gorkanauts/Morkanauts should have been immune to the vehicle damage chart like super heavies are, being the same size as Imperial Knights that they are. Deff Dreads should have been immune to Crew Shaken/Stunned, as well as been able to put in squadrons. Considering your company is pushing sales of Ork Walkers, having rules that are good would tempt me to part with my money.
4) As for changes in the rules of the units themselves, there are far too many to go through, but here are a few.
[a]Three Nobz with Power Klaws are more expensive than three Meganobz, with considerably worse stats.
[b] Vehicles can purchase Stikkbombs, but most units already have Stikkbombs which renders the upgrade close to useless.
[c] Red Paint Jobs forfeit a turn of shooting just to move an extra inch.
[d] Nob Bikers are more expensive than Thunderwolf Cavalry, while having worse stats.
[e] Cybork bodies can be rendered obsolete simply by adding a Painboy or Mad Dok Grotsnik to a unit.
[f] Da Boss iz Watchin' should have been +/- 2 to Mob Rule. Although Mob Rule is in itself, a bad rule due to how it works, the current form of Da Boss iz Watchin basically renders the table moot, where a D6 of 2-5 automatically results in Squabble. Not everyone wants to run thirty boyz in a squad.
Despite this, none of what I have proposed, or even something to that effect, was implemented. So that leaves the question, what encourages me and a lot of other Ork players to spend their money on this release? Simply put, very little, if anything. To me, this release shows a clear lack of knowledge and/or interest in your game, as well as what your customers want.
Suffice to say, I have become disillusioned with your company and will not be supporting this purchase.
Their reply:
Spoiler:
Hello Joseph
Thank you so much for taking the time to put down your thoughts in this email regarding the latest Ork supplement, along with what are obviously very passionate suggestions for the future of the great Waaaaagh!
We do take all feedback very seriously from our customers, so this email has been passed on to the relevant heads of departments to look into. Whilst I cannot guarantee a reply from them, or any changes, I assure you that your email will be looked into.
Thanks again for your email, and should you need anything further, please let me know
Kind Regards
Sadly, cannot guarantee doth butter no parsnips!
They answered to me too
Their reply:
Spoiler:
Thanks very much for you email - I have passed your comments on to the studio- we do take all customer feedback very seriously - however I cannot guarantee a direct reply from them.
Still, I don't think we'll ever see decent (and by decent I don't necessarily mean powerful, I mean fun, fluffy, flexible, etc) rules for Orks, Tyranids, or CSM until someone new gets onto the design team who actually likes those armies. No designer who actually cared about Orks would release the Detachment or the Formations in the updated Supplement, at the very least they'd want to go a little more in-depth with the variety of the formations within it. The fact that the Gorkanaught is still spruiked as a viable assault transport for Nobz speaks to a paucity of understanding of how Orks work, a paucity that would almost certainly not be evident if the designer writing the rules actually knew or cared about how Orks work.
But I don't like to end on a down note - the ability to Waaagh! on every turn is actually alright, and could probably lead to some 1st turn charges. Dakkajets also benefit (though not as much as they used to *grumble grumb-* wait, gotta stay positive) and it wouldn't be too expensive I think to run a Goff Killmob and the 3 dakkajet formation. As for how competitive that ends up being...
Unfortunately whoever works on Orks (along with Guard I feel) isn't passionate about them and seems to be designing them to be an NPC faction for others to fight (and win). A real Ork fan (be it power gamer or fluff fanatic) would have a field day making rules for the Orks. No faction in the 40k universe can get away with doing more crazy and off the wall things than Orks and their formation rules should reflect their unique nature. Not saying everything should be RNG heavy (please stop with the RNG gak) but having things like a formation of "teleporta boyz" who all deep strike in or a Weirdboy conclave where they hurl out lots of powers but tend to explode. A unit of Nobz with Grots and the Nobz can throw the grots in front of attacks to soak up wounds or a group of 3-4 Shokk Attack Guns and they can combine fire to unleash a barrage of pie plates but at the risk of "crossing the beams" and spawning random vortexes. The current designers make Orks function like footslogging fools who blindly march forward to their deaths but unlike the fluff you don't have billions of Orks at your disposal. Mob Rule being this joke of a special rule that takes our terrible leadership (why are Nobz leadership 7?) and then punishes us for failing moral checks by inflicting even more wounds onto the unit. Nothing about Mob Rule is fun for the Ork player and it just feels like its designed for the other player to enjoy seeing the Orks kill themselves because blowing up T4 6+ armor models isn't easy enough. Its really bad game design when you make rules that are intentionally designed to compound on each other to punish the player for something they have no control over. Its such a miss opportunity to take a faction with great fluff and not utilize it to create fun gameplay.
Unfortunately whoever works on Orks (along with Guard I feel) isn't passionate about them and seems to be designing them to be an NPC faction for others to fight (and win).
This is how I've felt for a while now. I don't know if there simply aren't any ork players on the design team, but for some reason GW seems to have decided that Orks are the "Bad Guys that the Good Guys are supposed to win against every time" faction. Essentially, a bunch of faceless grunts intended to be stomped flat by every space marine, Eldar, Tau, and Necron player out there. The codex reflects that with the "Rolling on random tables is fun!1!" design element, with even the best results not being particularly awesome for the ork player. ("Randomness is FUN!")
Vineheart01 wrote: Finkin' Kap only gives you one Strategic Trait, its not any trait, and its not rerollable either.
Bare in mind you are restricted to one Gift of Gork and Mork, which means no Lucky Stikk for your warlord. And Finkin' Kap has to be on your warlord.
Like ive said in the past, its such a lame limiter that we can only get 1 relic in the normal dex. All of them are average to gimicky EXCEPT the stikk, which is insanely good. Since Painboyz cant take any and Big Meks typically dont have a use for them, nothing except the Stikk gets used.
I don't believe that's right. It says "Only one of each of the following may be taken per army. A model can take one of the following:", meaning you could give a Big Mek Da Finkin' Kap and your Warboss Da Lucky Stikk.
Vineheart01 wrote: Finkin' Kap only gives you one Strategic Trait, its not any trait, and its not rerollable either.
Bare in mind you are restricted to one Gift of Gork and Mork, which means no Lucky Stikk for your warlord. And Finkin' Kap has to be on your warlord.
Like ive said in the past, its such a lame limiter that we can only get 1 relic in the normal dex. All of them are average to gimicky EXCEPT the stikk, which is insanely good. Since Painboyz cant take any and Big Meks typically dont have a use for them, nothing except the Stikk gets used.
I don't believe that's right. It says "Only one of each of the following may be taken per army. A model can take one of the following:", meaning you could give a Big Mek Da Finkin' Kap and your Warboss Da Lucky Stikk.
Codex: Orks (2014), p53, Orks Wargear List, Gifts of Gork and Mork:
Da Finkin' Kap, footnote 4:
"Can only be taken by your Warlord."
Vineheart01 wrote: Finkin' Kap only gives you one Strategic Trait, its not any trait, and its not rerollable either.
Bare in mind you are restricted to one Gift of Gork and Mork, which means no Lucky Stikk for your warlord. And Finkin' Kap has to be on your warlord.
Like ive said in the past, its such a lame limiter that we can only get 1 relic in the normal dex. All of them are average to gimicky EXCEPT the stikk, which is insanely good. Since Painboyz cant take any and Big Meks typically dont have a use for them, nothing except the Stikk gets used.
I don't believe that's right. It says "Only one of each of the following may be taken per army. A model can take one of the following:", meaning you could give a Big Mek Da Finkin' Kap and your Warboss Da Lucky Stikk.
Codex: Orks (2014), p53, Orks Wargear List, Gifts of Gork and Mork:
Da Finkin' Kap, footnote 4:
"Can only be taken by your Warlord."
Sorry.
What about Da Lukky Stikk? Does it carry the same footnote? Otherwise, make a Big Mek your warlord, give him the KFF and stick him in the back with a squad of Lootas.
I am interested in one thing
What happens to the Green Tide formation with the redesign of the Ghazzy suplement ? Because if its gone it will be the second time GW invalidates my army (played trukk spam in 6th ed.)
There is only so much my nerves and budget can take
Vineheart01 wrote: Finkin' Kap only gives you one Strategic Trait, its not any trait, and its not rerollable either.
Bare in mind you are restricted to one Gift of Gork and Mork, which means no Lucky Stikk for your warlord. And Finkin' Kap has to be on your warlord.
Like ive said in the past, its such a lame limiter that we can only get 1 relic in the normal dex. All of them are average to gimicky EXCEPT the stikk, which is insanely good. Since Painboyz cant take any and Big Meks typically dont have a use for them, nothing except the Stikk gets used.
I don't believe that's right. It says "Only one of each of the following may be taken per army. A model can take one of the following:", meaning you could give a Big Mek Da Finkin' Kap and your Warboss Da Lucky Stikk.
Codex: Orks (2014), p53, Orks Wargear List, Gifts of Gork and Mork:
Da Finkin' Kap, footnote 4:
"Can only be taken by your Warlord."
Sorry.
What about Da Lukky Stikk? Does it carry the same footnote? Otherwise, make a Big Mek your warlord, give him the KFF and stick him in the back with a squad of Lootas.
No, Da Lukky Stikk doesn't have that restriction. Sure, you could put Da Finkin' Kap on a Big Mek. As long as you don't plan on ever using your Waaagh!, that would work. Because remember: you need a character with the Waaagh! special rule as your Warlord to call the Waaagh!, and that's only available to a Warboss or Ghazzy, or if you pick it up on the WL trait table.
Vineheart01 wrote: Finkin' Kap only gives you one Strategic Trait, its not any trait, and its not rerollable either.
Bare in mind you are restricted to one Gift of Gork and Mork, which means no Lucky Stikk for your warlord. And Finkin' Kap has to be on your warlord.
Like ive said in the past, its such a lame limiter that we can only get 1 relic in the normal dex. All of them are average to gimicky EXCEPT the stikk, which is insanely good. Since Painboyz cant take any and Big Meks typically dont have a use for them, nothing except the Stikk gets used.
I don't believe that's right. It says "Only one of each of the following may be taken per army. A model can take one of the following:", meaning you could give a Big Mek Da Finkin' Kap and your Warboss Da Lucky Stikk.
Codex: Orks (2014), p53, Orks Wargear List, Gifts of Gork and Mork:
Da Finkin' Kap, footnote 4:
"Can only be taken by your Warlord."
Sorry.
What about Da Lukky Stikk? Does it carry the same footnote? Otherwise, make a Big Mek your warlord, give him the KFF and stick him in the back with a squad of Lootas.
No, Da Lukky Stikk doesn't have that restriction. Sure, you could put Da Finkin' Kap on a Big Mek. As long as you don't plan on ever using your Waaagh!, that would work. Because remember: you need a character with the Waaagh! special rule as your Warlord to call the Waaagh!, and that's only available to a Warboss or Ghazzy, or if you pick it up on the WL trait table.
Well, that's super inconvenient. I used the exact set up as described and it worked perfect, except I called a Waaagh!! which was obviously illegal
Delevarius wrote: I am interested in one thing
What happens to the Green Tide formation with the redesign of the Ghazzy suplement ? Because if its gone it will be the second time GW invalidates my army (played trukk spam in 6th ed.)
There is only so much my nerves and budget can take
The waaagh band is perfect for trukk spam. I just wish I had 6-7 trukks!
Delevarius wrote: I am interested in one thing
What happens to the Green Tide formation with the redesign of the Ghazzy suplement ? Because if its gone it will be the second time GW invalidates my army (played trukk spam in 6th ed.)
There is only so much my nerves and budget can take
The waaagh band is perfect for trukk spam. I just wish I had 6-7 trukks!
Trukk Spaam itself is terrible now, due to Mob Rule and Trukkz exploding with str 4
It's not so bad if you can keep everything Fearless the whole game, no pinning or morale tests or mob rule. The problem is adding necessary units afterwards, like Tankbustas. Not everything can be tarpitted by fearless Boyz so you need other units that are actually able to damage things likel SHV and GMC, the problem is that if you want to have those Fearless boyz you won't have enough points left over. I play high points games and even then it's difficult to make any sort of balanced list with this detachment.
Delevarius wrote: I am interested in one thing
What happens to the Green Tide formation with the redesign of the Ghazzy suplement ? Because if its gone it will be the second time GW invalidates my army (played trukk spam in 6th ed.)
There is only so much my nerves and budget can take
The waaagh band is perfect for trukk spam. I just wish I had 6-7 trukks!
Trukk Spaam itself is terrible now, due to Mob Rule and Trukkz exploding with str 4
Yeah, ard boyz is almost mandatory for surviving explosions. But for me half of the times they glance my trukks to death. A better ramshackle rule could have been our saviour though. 4+ ramshakle perhaps?
The trukkerboyz can survive long enough for me if I put the pressure on the enemy with other units like MANZ and warbikers.
So GW actually managed to make orks worse with this update, thats imppressive, they have to be trying to get rid of ork players to buy marines , eldar or tau....
Delevarius wrote: I am interested in one thing
What happens to the Green Tide formation with the redesign of the Ghazzy suplement ? Because if its gone it will be the second time GW invalidates my army (played trukk spam in 6th ed.)
There is only so much my nerves and budget can take
Trukk Spam is about the only think Orkcurion is good for, as it enables first turn charges
Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote: So GW actually managed to make orks worse with this update, thats imppressive, they have to be trying to get rid of ork players to buy marines , eldar or tau....
I've got Ad Mech as a secondary army, so at least i've got something. Also this is how i felt about Sisters, until i actually played them in 7th, i was surprised at how well it worked.
Realistically though, my Orks are staying shelved unless i can run my Homebrew version.
Tbh, thats a standard reply. I have emailed GW on various topics several times and i get the same reply and never see a FAQ, Eratta, or release containing anything to correct the complaint or even ATTEMPT to correct it. And im referring to major ones, not petty ones like Tau not having a viable melee unit for Farsight to join (since the rest of the army is so over the top, they shouldnt have a good melee unit but off topic).
One can hope that if they just get insanely flooded with complaints about the current ork status, they'll FINALLY heed it. The changes you (Frozocrone) suggested arent even major ones that would give the Orks a huge buff, but they would definitely yield play-ability buffs which at this point we need more than topping Eldar/Tau buffs anyway.
True Vineheart01, but if implemented it's at least a start and does show they care what we think.
I'm not even about having huge buffs, I just want the army to be competitive. Like, not Decurion, Gladius, Hunter Contingent or Eldar good, but balanced and gives me a chance. I've never been a fan of these super-detachments that give insane bonuses and we can all agree Eldar got buffs where they probably didn't need them and then some.
I at least hope they see that the rules they provide don't support the pushes of sales they are trying to make. I'm not overly optimistic (cannot guarantee is perhaps the biggest fob-off one could recieve), but I like to think my time and effort wasn't wasted.
One can hope that if they just get insanely flooded with complaints about the current ork status, they'll FINALLY heed it. The changes you (Frozocrone) suggested arent even major ones that would give the Orks a huge buff, but they would definitely yield play-ability buffs which at this point we need more than topping Eldar/Tau buffs anyway.
Boy, we can complain all we want, but this is the only update we've gotten in a year and a half. I don't think there's much more coming.
And while this codex is like being tossed a thimbleful of water in the desert, there's some codexes (CSM) for whom the lack of updates is getting ridiculous, at this point.
I've done my part, calling the U.S. Tech support line. I asked him if GreenTide had been deleted in the book...he didn't know. He offered to email England and ask them, and he will be calling me back in the morning.
I suggest that we all call the line: 1-800-394-4263. Those in the UK, you might have better luck as you can call direct.
While I will not argue the neglect of orks vrs csm. I reAly do hope you guys get a good codex. But that's the thing, while csm have yet to get anything, there might be still a chance for a great codex...just based on the fact that there isn't a 7th codex for csm yet. We orks got our 7th codex, we got our supliment, we even got our "revised" supplement...and it's all been rubish. And it's very unlikely we will get anything else until a next edition. We had our chance, but gw just didn't want to deliver. Maybe they will wise up when or if they do a csm codex.
We were unlucky in that we got stuff...and that stuff sucks.
Still, I mean no offense to csm, or tyranids or the others gw hasn't paid attention to.
Any confirmation on what the getting started set formation is ? The SW one let's the TWC run and charge , so im guessing the ork one is auto destroyed upon deployment judging by what we got in this "update"
Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote: Any confirmation on what the getting started set formation is ? The SW one let's the TWC run and charge , so im guessing the ork one is auto destroyed upon deployment judging by what we got in this "update"
I made this rule up as a gag:
Send'em In!: As long as the Painboss mob stays on the field a 30 Boy Slugga mob or a 20 Boy Shoota mob comes in from Reserves at the beginning of each of the starting players turns. These units cost no points, take up no slots and grant no VPs.
So yes, take 4 of these and literally drown your opponents in models!
Vineheart01 wrote: Tbh, thats a standard reply. I have emailed GW on various topics several times and i get the same reply and never see a FAQ, Eratta, or release containing anything to correct the complaint or even ATTEMPT to correct it. And im referring to major ones, not petty ones like Tau not having a viable melee unit for Farsight to join (since the rest of the army is so over the top, they shouldnt have a good melee unit but off topic).
One can hope that if they just get insanely flooded with complaints about the current ork status, they'll FINALLY heed it. The changes you (Frozocrone) suggested arent even major ones that would give the Orks a huge buff, but they would definitely yield play-ability buffs which at this point we need more than topping Eldar/Tau buffs anyway.
To be fair the looted wagon in the white dwarf was a direct response from GW after the ork codex release and people complained. So anything is possible. Personally I sent a reply to GW about the missing greentide formation and asking for ghazkull to be an option instead of the warlord in the Goff kill mob.
That one change would make this decorian much better.
To be fair the looted wagon in the white dwarf was a direct response from GW after the ork codex release and people complained. So anything is possible. Personally I sent a reply to GW about the missing greentide formation and asking for ghazkull to be an option instead of the warlord in the Goff kill mob.
That one change would make this decorian much better.
I just found that issue and i read the stuff one of the guys who wrote it said. In his top 3 favorite things about the Dex he never once mentioned a rule, he just kept going on and on about aestetics, and then i saw his list for a Battle Report and i nearly lost it. He had 4 different types of Mek Gunz in the same unit and had 2004 points while his Nid opponent had 1975. I almost screamed at my computer.
Frozocrone wrote: True Vineheart01, but if implemented it's at least a start and does show they care what we think.
I'm not even about having huge buffs, I just want the army to be competitive. Like, not Decurion, Gladius, Hunter Contingent or Eldar good, but balanced and gives me a chance. I've never been a fan of these super-detachments that give insane bonuses and we can all agree Eldar got buffs where they probably didn't need them and then some.
I at least hope they see that the rules they provide don't support the pushes of sales they are trying to make. I'm not overly optimistic (cannot guarantee is perhaps the biggest fob-off one could recieve), but I like to think my time and effort wasn't wasted.
Im not really a fan of them either. I use them in either big games or when i know my opponent is going to abuse them (i.e. literally any eldar/necron player, most of the SM players around here of every chapter doesnt really use the formations). Only formation im fine bringing with my tau regularly is the retal cadre because another commander + crisis suits...since its the tamest formation rule-wise we got it just has awesome unit slots.
I dont even care if i lose with orks, but i want to put up a fight. If i get tabled, but he only has 1-3 units left, i call it a good game. That doesnt happen anymore, which is why i shelved them. All the top/2nd tier codexes just casually crush orks, its no fun getting tabled almost every game by turn 4 and most of their army is still standing (had a necron warrior squad in my last ork game stall my bikerstar for 4 combat phases. Warboss with stikk, nobklaw, 14 warbikers, painboy, and even a MANz missile for the 3rd/4th phase. WARRIORS just laughed at a crapton of PKs, taking me to the 5th phase before i finally swept him. And somehow this is balanced? Riiight....) Unless i am utterly spamming MANz missiles and warbikers, everything i bring is countered by joke lists. MANz missiles and warbikers arent reliable either, since the moment you face S8 AP2 or better guns the MANz missiles just became very difficult to utilize and just about any ignores cover takes out our bikers, or they just get trumped by other melee units since yaknow...S3 if you charge me first even though im a tough as nails ork.
matphat wrote: Haven't Orks been low to mid tier since 4th? Why does anyone expect Orks to get better when they've been pretty bad for 10+ years?
As a fairly new player, and a dedicated Ork player, I have never expected anything more.
Uh no. 4th edition we where in the top 4, and in 5th we were somewhere around the top as well. It wasn't until 6th edition that it got bad, and boy did it get bad.
Im not really a fan of them either. I use them in either big games or when i know my opponent is going to abuse them (i.e. literally any eldar/necron player, most of the SM players around here of every chapter doesnt really use the formations). Only formation im fine bringing with my tau regularly is the retal cadre because another commander + crisis suits...since its the tamest formation rule-wise we got it just has awesome unit slots.
I dont even care if i lose with orks, but i want to put up a fight. If i get tabled, but he only has 1-3 units left, i call it a good game. That doesnt happen anymore, which is why i shelved them. All the top/2nd tier codexes just casually crush orks, its no fun getting tabled almost every game by turn 4 and most of their army is still standing (had a necron warrior squad in my last ork game stall my bikerstar for 4 combat phases. Warboss with stikk, nobklaw, 14 warbikers, painboy, and even a MANz missile for the 3rd/4th phase. WARRIORS just laughed at a crapton of PKs, taking me to the 5th phase before i finally swept him. And somehow this is balanced? Riiight....) Unless i am utterly spamming MANz missiles and warbikers, everything i bring is countered by joke lists. MANz missiles and warbikers arent reliable either, since the moment you face S8 AP2 or better guns the MANz missiles just became very difficult to utilize and just about any ignores cover takes out our bikers, or they just get trumped by other melee units since yaknow...S3 if you charge me first even though im a tough as nails ork.
That is some lousy luck there. Honestly ive never had that big of an issue with Crons, except the Nightbringer. I hate that guy.
matphat wrote: Haven't Orks been low to mid tier since 4th? Why does anyone expect Orks to get better when they've been pretty bad for 10+ years?
As a fairly new player, and a dedicated Ork player, I have never expected anything more.
Orks were beastmode in 5th. The Kan Wall was insane and since we didnt remove models from the front our PK Nobz in boy blobs were pretty difficult to kill before they wrecked things. Also consolidation into another combat.
6th comes around, walkers become pathetic as we all know, removing from the front usually makes ork boyz take a full extra turn on average to get anywhere, and our pk nob gets challenged out/sniped all the flippin time. Consolidation into another combat needed to go away, since that was just...just plain dumb and silly lol
matphat wrote: Haven't Orks been low to mid tier since 4th? Why does anyone expect Orks to get better when they've been pretty bad for 10+ years?
As a fairly new player, and a dedicated Ork player, I have never expected anything more.
Orks were beastmode in 5th. The Kan Wall was insane and since we didnt remove models from the front our PK Nobz in boy blobs were pretty difficult to kill before they wrecked things. Also consolidation into another combat.
6th comes around, walkers become pathetic as we all know, removing from the front usually makes ork boyz take a full extra turn on average to get anywhere, and our pk nob gets challenged out/sniped all the flippin time. Consolidation into another combat needed to go away, since that was just...just plain dumb and silly lol
I thought 4th ed was when you could consolidate into combat, you couldn't do that in 5th.
Did that go away in 5th? honestly cant remember when that went away lol. I barely played in those editions, think i had like 1200pts of orks tops and mostly AOBR boyz
I just found that issue and i read the stuff one of the guys who wrote it said. In his top 3 favorite things about the Dex he never once mentioned a rule, he just kept going on and on about aestetics, and then i saw his list for a Battle Report and i nearly lost it. He had 4 different types of Mek Gunz in the same unit and had 2004 points while his Nid opponent had 1975. I almost screamed at my computer.
You think that is bad, try the white dwarf where they praised the new flashy lookin flash gitz. The battle report was between orks and imp knights. A walker vrs walker game.
In knights had 3 knight paladins and 3 knight errant at 2235pts.
The orks were 1 bar bones stompa, 3 gorkanauts, 2 morkanauts with kff each, 4 deffdredds, 6 killa kanz.
It was listed at 2455 pts....I checked my dex, and if those killa kanz and deffdredds were bare bones then that comes to 2685pts...not sure if typo or just plain attempt to deceive us. Any way that's a 450 pt difference.
The game ended with only a gorkanauts and knight paladin left. The knights optained both objectives of destroy a factory and the stompa. OrKS lose.
I just found that issue and i read the stuff one of the guys who wrote it said. In his top 3 favorite things about the Dex he never once mentioned a rule, he just kept going on and on about aestetics, and then i saw his list for a Battle Report and i nearly lost it. He had 4 different types of Mek Gunz in the same unit and had 2004 points while his Nid opponent had 1975. I almost screamed at my computer.
You think that is bad, try the white dwarf where they praised the new flashy lookin flash gitz. The battle report was between orks and imp knights. A walker vrs walker game.
In knights had 3 knight paladins and 3 knight errant at 2235pts.
The orks were 1 bar bones stompa, 3 gorkanauts, 2 morkanauts with kff each, 4 deffdredds, 6 killa kanz.
It was listed at 2455 pts....I checked my dex, and if those killa kanz and deffdredds were bare bones then that comes to 2685pts...not sure if typo or just plain attempt to deceive us. Any way that's a 450 pt difference.
The game ended with only a gorkanauts and knight paladin left. The knights optained both objectives of destroy a factory and the stompa. OrKS lose.
I just found that issue and i read the stuff one of the guys who wrote it said. In his top 3 favorite things about the Dex he never once mentioned a rule, he just kept going on and on about aestetics, and then i saw his list for a Battle Report and i nearly lost it. He had 4 different types of Mek Gunz in the same unit and had 2004 points while his Nid opponent had 1975. I almost screamed at my computer.
You think that is bad, try the white dwarf where they praised the new flashy lookin flash gitz. The battle report was between orks and imp knights. A walker vrs walker game.
In knights had 3 knight paladins and 3 knight errant at 2235pts.
The orks were 1 bar bones stompa, 3 gorkanauts, 2 morkanauts with kff each, 4 deffdredds, 6 killa kanz.
It was listed at 2455 pts....I checked my dex, and if those killa kanz and deffdredds were bare bones then that comes to 2685pts...not sure if typo or just plain attempt to deceive us. Any way that's a 450 pt difference.
The game ended with only a gorkanauts and knight paladin left. The knights optained both objectives of destroy a factory and the stompa. OrKS lose.
That's some good narrative forging right there.
Even in their own dreams, Orks can't win a battle. They're like Bad Luck Brian under GW's rules department.
geargutz wrote: You think that is bad, try the white dwarf where they praised the new flashy lookin flash gitz. The battle report was between orks and imp knights. A walker vrs walker game.
In knights had 3 knight paladins and 3 knight errant at 2235pts.
The orks were 1 bar bones stompa, 3 gorkanauts, 2 morkanauts with kff each, 4 deffdredds, 6 killa kanz.
It was listed at 2455 pts....I checked my dex, and if those killa kanz and deffdredds were bare bones then that comes to 2685pts...not sure if typo or just plain attempt to deceive us. Any way that's a 450 pt difference.
The game ended with only a gorkanauts and knight paladin left. The knights optained both objectives of destroy a factory and the stompa. OrKS lose.
The batrep was written of a game they were using to playtest the Ork walkers. Clearly there was a problem with the outcome of the game, so they had to increase the cost of Ork Walkers to better balance the game.
As some said, I dont really care if orks arent a top army. I like haw for mob of 10+ ad I feel it suits them well even though its not really strong. Still, this orkurion is a joke. That one of the bonus for the core formation is still the same and is now completely irrelevant in the big picture is insulting and shows the ammount of "work" GW put into this. Furthermore, these formations are just way too big. 5 bw ! 20 flash gitz! 3 gorkonauts... Finally, whats the point in making us the only army that needs to take special characters in their formations. I know they were taken from the waagh ghaz supplement, but they should have been tweaked a bit at the very least
I play Orks since they exist and always liked small to medium units, in current age that is 10-15 models.
Never liked the maxed 30 boyz units, also never liked playing Orks as an assault army.IMO they are better and more fun as a shooty army that can fight in close combat as well.
What i have not read here is what the new book will do for an army based on shootaboyz, lootaz etc. I think that having these fearless is not a bad thing at all.
In current edition a small unit runs away after the first (or second) leadership test. Now small units can swarm the place and stand firm.
I do not need or want all my orks in trukks and everything tooled up for assault in turn 1 or 2. That is nice for a part of the army, but should never be the plan for the whole army, nor does it need to be IMO.
But these are not the rules i was waiting for either.
And always Ghazz, never any other clans.
Goff are the most boring clan IMO.The clan with most nobz and good in assault, but the worst in regard to flexibility and tactics.
Goff are more or less Khorne without armour. Goff find Khorne funny in the fluff; that is also where the Stormboyz of Khorne came from.
I find most, if not all, other Clans more interesting.
Orks would be far better off if GW went with the carrot for large unit sizes instead of the stick.
What if instead of forcing you to take 6 units of boyz, or units of 20 models as part of formations, they gave bonuses for larger unit sizes- say if you take at least 20 boyz you can upgrade one to a nob for free, and if the unit is 30 models, the nob gets a free boss pole and special weapons for the unit are free (expanded to be 1 big shoota, rokkit, burna, or big choppa per 10 boyz)
Keep the idea of a mob rule table, but let you adjust the dice roll by 1 for each unit of 10 or more orks within 6"
Have a variety of builds as core- Green Tide, mixed mob, speed freeks (all must take a transport, may move 12" and disembark, Ld +1 within 6" of an ork transport)
I agree, the decurion concept would have been the best way for people to bring their klans to the table. At least an option to take a core based around each klan. It would have been simple to do, fluffy, and made many or players very happy.
Ugh. Despite no longer playing WH40k (because the awesome support GW has shown orks) this update makes me sad for the boxes full of awesome in my basement.
Well at least there is a possibility for clan Orkurions - this one is basically the Goff one. How about a Great Evil Sunz Speedmob formation or a Great Bad Moon Dakkamob one?
Ar least they havent totally eliminated the possibility. If they will ever do it, though, is another question. Probably not, because it would make way too much sense...
Thank god I bailed out of modern 40k into 2nd ed. Orks(well pretty much every army actually...) are much more fun there! This would have been quite a disapointment if I still was playing 7th ed. Especially tourny style where those formations are extremely unwieldy due to high minimum point costs(seems there's locally talk of 1500pts games as well due to time issues...)
"At this point it's safe to say that Orks don't fit in wh40k anymore. Seriously, there's no way to play this army without heavy houseruling. "
Which it seems is all competitive play seems to be any way.
What with all the army construction limitations. Maybe Orks should be the exception to the rule. Or have there own army construction format for tournaments.
ITC or any other tourny ruling doesnt add rules to orks or remove BS rules from orks to make them playable. Thats what needs to be done.
Or change prices. Stompa is way too expensive...codex stompa should be ~200pts cheaper. Knights are stronger than a Stompa but have a lot less hp so it should still cost more than a knight, but not 3x more!
570pts before any missiles or forgeworld options are added sounds fair to me, since orky BS makes majority of his shooting not do much. Yeah i know its Supa-Gatling shoots 3 times and is potentially insane, but doubles on a 3D6 is pretty easy to get and it stops for the entire game if you roll doubles so im not that impressed. Deff Kannon is the only reliable one, since even an ork cant miss a Massive Blast lol.
MajorWesJanson wrote: What if instead of forcing you to take 6 units of boyz, or units of 20 models as part of formations, they gave bonuses for larger unit sizes- say if you take at least 20 boyz you can upgrade one to a nob for free, and if the unit is 30 models, the nob gets a free boss pole and special weapons for the unit are free (expanded to be 1 big shoota, rokkit, burna, or big choppa per 10 boyz)
Here is my solution to Ork Survivability, points cost, and a few other things.
If a Unit numbers 10 or more Orks it is +1 toughness against shooting. If a Unit numbers 20 or more Orks it is +2 toughness against shooting.
I think -200 points for the codex stompa would be fair. Flash Gitz should have Eavy Armor and Monster Hunter. Oddboyz: Painboys, Meks, and Weirdboys shouldn't take up a force org, though you should be limited to 1 per HQ choice just like Meks. Trukks should downgrade Pens on a 2+.
I think those few changes, and everything would be pretty solid for Orks.
It really seems to align with GW's push to turn 40K into Apocalypse. They just don't want to call it Apocalypse. This trend started with the roll out of 7th and the inclusion of LOW in the standard CAD, super heavies, formations, etc. And it just keeps rolling forward. You want to bring strength D weapons to a standard game, and your opponent is running an infantry horde? Sure, this is fair and legal. You want to bring a formation that gives you ridiculous bonuses? Yes, that's a great idea! Super convenient that you just happen to need a lot of models to field these formations, or a small number of more expensive models.
I know we don't have all the details yet, but it seems like this new super formation is designed to be taken in large games. It feels like they cherry picked stuff from Armageddon and Apocalypse, threw it all together, and said here go forge the narrative.
Am I reading the Aux choices right -- could you potentially field 10 Stompas for each Core choice? Or 50 Battlewagons (10 x Blitz Brigade)? Or is there some restriction?
Understand I'm not talking about games under 2000 points. The way this formation is written, it seems like GW just wants you to buy a crap-load of models, and here's some fun rules to give you a bonus for fielding those models.
Cleatus wrote: Am I reading the Aux choices right -- could you potentially field 10 Stompas for each Core choice? Or 50 Battlewagons (10 x Blitz Brigade)? Or is there some restriction?
Understand I'm not talking about games under 2000 points. The way this formation is written, it seems like GW just wants you to buy a crap-load of models, and here's some fun rules to give you a bonus for fielding those models.
The restriction is basically the core unit. If memory serves me right (keep in mind that I have played once in the last two years) to field the Waagh! Band in any useful way you're already burning about 1200 points, and that's assuming you stick everyone in trukks and thus pretty much lose mob rule. Mobs of 30 would be more expensive. The core also has no bonus rules compared to the decurion, plus W!G imposes some heavy penalties onto you, like mob rule +2, characters being forced to accept challenges and a terrible Warlord table you must roll on.
You could just spam CADs and get your 10 stompas a lot cheaper.
Unless there is something really awesome hidden somewhere, this orkurion is useless outside of fielding a metric ton of boyz, which was never my play stile anyways.
admittedly if youre fielding more than 3 stompas youre playing true apoc, which doesnt even have slots far as i know..people just bring gak to bring gak and dont even pay attention to slot requirements.
10 stompas alone is damn near 8000pts, before factoring in the impending mekspam inside each of them for a ton of repairs.
I broke down and ordered the book today. A sell on Ebay has it for like $28.00 usd. And free shipping.
I'm an addict with near on 20,000 points so it was inevitable.
If it makes you all feel any better, 12 Genestealer hybrids cost about the same as 12 Shoota Boyz and outclass them in nearly every single way! Better BS, S, I, Sv, Fearless, and Rending! Orks will be better in 8th Edition, I promise...
I played my last game of 7th about two weeks ago. I'm going to spend my hobby time finishing up the remainder of my Orks, and putting polish on both my Orks and my 1500 points of Iron Warriors, and then I'm going to box up both finished armies and chill till either A.) A new Ork or CSM Codex appears that is deemed actually fun (If not at least mid tier) or 8th drops and is neither AoS, and is better over all than 7th had been to me.
the_Armyman wrote: If it makes you all feel any better, 12 Genestealer hybrids cost about the same as 12 Shoota Boyz and outclass them in nearly every single way! Better BS, S, I, Sv, Fearless, and Rending! Orks will be better in 8th Edition, I promise...
But do they have have T4 and 2 S4 shots as well as the option to buy 'eavy armour? No? I didn't think so
matphat wrote: I played my last game of 7th about two weeks ago. I'm going to spend my hobby time finishing up the remainder of my Orks, and putting polish on both my Orks and my 1500 points of Iron Warriors, and then I'm going to box up both finished armies and chill till either A.) A new Ork or CSM Codex appears that is deemed actually fun (If not at least mid tier) or 8th drops and is neither AoS, and is better over all than 7th had been to me.
It's an easy choice at this point.
Why look forward to new edition when there's better editions behind? Feels kinda shame to box your armies. Put them to better use playing edition that's more fun
matphat wrote: Haven't Orks been low to mid tier since 4th? Why does anyone expect Orks to get better when they've been pretty bad for 10+ years?
As a fairly new player, and a dedicated Ork player, I have never expected anything more.
My thoughts too, honestly. I understand that nob bikers were once good due to 5th ed wound allocation silliness - though they could still be instakilled by str8 weapons, so I don't understand why 6th was a 'nerf' for them. It seems to me that I'd rather have true T5 than wound allocation tricks.
But anyways, yes, orks aren't good, haven't been for some time, and anyone who expected that to change dramatically from this supplement probably hasn't been paying attention. But the new supplement has new ways to play, and I'm looking forward to trying it out.
I'm going to go through my collection and eBay some of the older stuff I have that doesn't match my current painting standards. Since 5th Edition, I've only played them a handful of times, and their rules have been consistently disappointing.
matphat wrote: Haven't Orks been low to mid tier since 4th? Why does anyone expect Orks to get better when they've been pretty bad for 10+ years?
As a fairly new player, and a dedicated Ork player, I have never expected anything more.
My thoughts too, honestly. I understand that nob bikers were once good due to 5th ed wound allocation silliness - though they could still be instakilled by str8 weapons, so I don't understand why 6th was a 'nerf' for them. It seems to me that I'd rather have true T5 than wound allocation tricks.
But anyways, yes, orks aren't good, haven't been for some time, and anyone who expected that to change dramatically from this supplement probably hasn't been paying attention. But the new supplement has new ways to play, and I'm looking forward to trying it out.
No, I didn't expect them to suddenly turn good. I expected actual content -like Tau, Space Wolves, or even Astra Militarum got- not a hasty copy/paste job that mashes together some old, barely-playable formations without rhyme or reason..
Thanks for writing into with your concerns for the Ork faction design and direction. While Customer Service is not in a position to offer insight into the creative process (we're not involved in the rules writing process), we can send your comments to the appropriate parties (Design Studio and Publications Team) for review. Do you have any particular recommendations you would like to offer for Orks (rules, miniatures, etc.)?
We hope to hear from you soon.
Jus got this reply to my email of complaint to gw. I know they usually say they'll send the email to the right people, but do they usually ask for a customers own opinions like this? Is this a common thing or is this an opportunity? Is gw actually interested in my sugestions?
Edited...don't know how to use the quote thing yet so I quoted the wrong text
Has anyone got links to pictures of the old formations from the new book? i have heard people complaining that some of them are the same even though the rules are now redundant but i have been looking everywhere to find images of them. The main two that i cannot find rules for anywhere are the waaagh band and the goff killmob. The waagh band had the same rules as the orkurion (orkurions version is better actually) but i have only heard complaining about them not changing (which would be silly at best) but have not seen anything to back this up other then complaining and i cannot find the old goff kill mob anywhere, the closest i can find for this one is grukks rippin krew, and if it has the rules from that then it would be quite fun.
Yes the orkurion is better but it completely overrides the core's individual bonus rules, which is utter bs. Hunter Contingent doesnt prevent its Core from having 12" supporting fire or run + shoot/shoot + run within 12" of a commander or cadre, but they also get the big formation rules. Why is ours literally a slightly better version of the core?
And i have the old book. The only formation changes have been mentioned multiple times, all of which are completely minor/pointless (Rage on krushin' krew...who the hell takes them anyway and the Gorkanaut already has Rage. S10 Rams on Blitz Brigade is "neat" since they normally ram on S8 right now, thats new)
geargutz wrote: Thanks for writing into with your concerns for the Ork faction design and direction. While Customer Service is not in a position to offer insight into the creative process (we're not involved in the rules writing process), we can send your comments to the appropriate parties (Design Studio and Publications Team) for review. Do you have any particular recommendations you would like to offer for Orks (rules, miniatures, etc.)?
We hope to hear from you soon.
Jus got this reply to my email of complaint to gw. I know they usually say they'll send the email to the right people, but do they usually ask for a customers own opinions like this? Is this a common thing or is this an opportunity? Is gw actually interested in my sugestions?
Edited...don't know how to use the quote thing yet so I quoted the wrong text
I am totally sure that the people from gw will send your mail to the place where they thinkt it belongs (recycle bin). GW does no researches about what their customers want. GW knows best what their customers want. So i think they sent such a mail as reply and forger the case.
Vineheart01 wrote: Yes the orkurion is better but it completely overrides the core's individual bonus rules, which is utter bs. Hunter Contingent doesnt prevent its Core from having 12" supporting fire or run + shoot/shoot + run within 12" of a commander or cadre, but they also get the big formation rules. Why is ours literally a slightly better version of the core?
And i have the old book. The only formation changes have been mentioned multiple times, all of which are completely minor/pointless (Rage on krushin' krew...who the hell takes them anyway and the Gorkanaut already has Rage. S10 Rams on Blitz Brigade is "neat" since they normally ram on S8 right now, thats new)
Gorkanauts have Rampage, not Rage currently. But I ain't arguing with 'who the hell takes them'
Well, at least Rage is better than Furious Charge..
Just got this reply to my email of complaint to gw. I know they usually say they'll send the email to the right people, but do they usually ask for a customers own opinions like this? Is this a common thing or is this an opportunity? Is gw actually interested in my sugestions?
Edited...don't know how to use the quote thing yet so I quoted the wrong text
Thanks for writing into with your concerns for the Ork faction design and direction. While Customer Service is not in a position to offer insight into the creative process (we're not involved in the rules writing process), we can send your comments to the appropriate parties (Design Studio and Publications Team) for review. Do you have any particular recommendations you would like to offer for Orks (rules, miniatures, etc.)?
We hope to hear from you soon.
Fixed I've sent and received a reply like that, it's earlier in this thread.
Also curious about the mention in the bottom right of the "Big Mek Stompa". Is that unit included in the v2.0 Waaagh! Ghazghkull?
It's a fluff page to help "inspire" different ghaz armies. The page is almost identical to its original, and the big mek stompa was originally there....just still not something that can be taken in gw only armies...gonna have to work with FW for that bm stompa.
matphat wrote: I played my last game of 7th about two weeks ago. I'm going to spend my hobby time finishing up the remainder of my Orks, and putting polish on both my Orks and my 1500 points of Iron Warriors, and then I'm going to box up both finished armies and chill till either A.) A new Ork or CSM Codex appears that is deemed actually fun (If not at least mid tier) or 8th drops and is neither AoS, and is better over all than 7th had been to me.
It's an easy choice at this point.
Why look forward to new edition when there's better editions behind? Feels kinda shame to box your armies. Put them to better use playing edition that's more fun
I would love that. I actually suggested it to two different groups here and no one is interested. I'd play 5th, with some modified rules, for ever if given the chance.
Automatically Appended Next Post: That said, honestly right now the only fun I have on the table is when someone who also has a gak army plays with me. The tourney guys, the local FotM guys, and even the casual guys who happen to run the "good" armies make it damn hard to enjoy.
I was wondering - the title of this thread is 'orks and tau', but it seems like the last 15 pages or so have been dedicated to the ork side of things. And not without reason, there's quite a bit of new information.
But are tau getting anything noteworthy - or anything at all?
r_squared wrote: ...Even if Ghaz gets hit in the face with a D deathblow, he will only take 1 wound thanks to eternal warrior, and if the painboy is still allive, he'll get 5+ FNP.
Plus all troops have Obj Sec thanks to the CAD.
That's not how either of those work.
If Ghaz gets a Deathblow! allocated to him, he can either attempt to LOS! on a 2+ or take 6 wounds with no saves of any kind and FNP doesn't work against Destroyer weapons, so it's effectively curtains for him if he fails his LOS! roll. Rolls of a 2-5 on the D-Chart still allow you your 2++ however.
Eternal warrior just stops him from being doubled out by Str 10, counts as str 10 destroyer weapons (which are all of them except for Eldar D-Scythes) or weapons with instant death (such as force weapons), in which case he'll just take a single wound instead. It aso doesn't function against things like remove from play (such as stomps from a GMC or Superheavy)
Also, not all troops get ObSec just because you took a CAD, only the troops from the CAD get ObSec, the troops from the formation do not have ObSec listed in their command benefits, and as such, do not get ObSec.
Question - to anyone who has the digital version of the book -
Does the new book at least have some new fluff - specifically on the Waaagh of Ghazghkull - with specific story progression, or is it literally all copypaste from the previous supplement?
JimOnMars wrote: I've done my part, calling the U.S. Tech support line. I asked him if GreenTide had been deleted in the book...he didn't know. He offered to email England and ask them, and he will be calling me back in the morning.
I suggest that we all call the line: 1-800-394-4263. Those in the UK, you might have better luck as you can call direct.
Got a reply. The poor U.S. clerk had no idea what was in the book, and had to report to me the bad news about Green Tide's deletion.
To his credit, he couldn't understand why such an "iconic formation" (his words) was deleted. I made him sweat a bit, asked him if the tide would show up in WD (of course he didn't know) and let him know GW lost a $32 sale.
I suspect he will pass that on, but I don't think GW cares about actual sales, oddly enough.
I really do suggest we each call him. Maybe The tide will show up in WD as an option to the crapcurion.
its not even a $32 sale they lost. If the rules are so bad people dont even want to experiment, theyre going to lose several hundred if not thousands from a single person in sales because they wont buy models.
I want nauts. I like the models a lot and thats the main selling point to me, but they also have to actually DO something. Im not bringing a ~250-300pt eye-candy that literally does nothing but look cool. I bring Hammerheads in my tau because i love that gun, and even though Hammerheads arent that amazing at least they can do something now than then. Hell, even become the MVP of my army some games which is really odd to say.
Flipside i dont want nauts to be supers. Super-eske yes, not supers. If they became full fledge supers, we'd be limited to 1 unless we play big games and they are not strong enough even with super rules to justify only 1. Better movement and superheavy damage chart perks....all i flippin ask for.
I agree. These Formations dont make me want to buy more Orks. My own Orkurion does, but thats cuz i've got rules that do interesting things, like Scouting Warbikes that lead Trukks around. If they had something like that, i would actually buy Warbikers and run Trukk boyz. But they didnt, and thats what makes me sad. Because even our good formations dont have any really interesting rules like the Ravenguard or White Scars formations. Hell the Imp Guard formations in the same book are at least fun!
Nope we get "Take a bunch of stuff you dont want for meh rules" Ya GW lost out on possibly a lot of Warbikers and Walkers from me.
You know what confuses me, how most people think this orkurian is fluffy. That ghaz is nothin but goff. Ghaz is renowned for synergizing the benefits of all clans. He didn't do the most damage to both armegeddon and octarious through huge waves of boys, he used tactics and different units.
If anything the ghazcurIan should be the most flexible ork fighting force there is. But no, gw wants ghaz to be goff through and through.
Exactly. This is all Goff based.
And i never liked playing the "don't hink, just charge" Goff way.
That's why my 1st edition Ork army was a Waaagh Orlk army with all clans (and Bad Moon Warboss).
And the Clan armies are Death Skullz, Evil Sunz, Bad Moon and Blood Axes.
And i am planning a Snakebitez detachment based on my WHFB Orks (which will not be of much use anymore because of AoS ;-).
I do have a detachment of Goff (the 2nd edition metal and plastic Goff models), but that's just a few units.
Even if i have not played Orks for a long time, they are still my favourite army creatively speaking.
If you are only in this hobby for winning games, then you will probably quit at some point anyway. Orks are still fun and in friendly games Orks can still be fun.
Does any one have a screen shot of were it says ALL the formations have the Da boss is watching and Biggest and da best.
I noticed that the rules are listed on the actual formation, but not all of them ,i.e kill mob, warband, flashgitz don't have those rules under special rules.
So unless im missing some obscure rule , I don't think all for formation have those rules unless taken in the decurion.
Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote: Does any one have a screen shot of were it says ALL the formations have the Da boss is watching and Biggest and da best.
I noticed that the rules are listed on the actual formation, but not all of them ,i.e kill mob, warband, flashgitz don't have those rules under special rules.
So unless im missing some obscure rule , I don't think all for formation have those rules unless taken in the decurion.
The way it works, at least in the exiting W!G book, is that all formations (and the great waaagh detachment, which may or may not exist anymore), auto-included the Da boss is watching / Biggest and da best.
Then again, I think you may have a point - in the old W!G book, those two rules may have been listed in the formation description. I don't recall.
But at any rate, I'm 99% sure that those two rules apply to all formations in the old W!G book, so I assume they do in the new one, Decurion or no. But I might be wrong - hope I am, as that would make some of those formations actually fieldable.
Can we still take the Great Waaagh! Detachment from 1st ed. W!G? This will allow for the warbikestar to remain, but if it has been cut we will loose regular access to Mega Force Field.
Have you guys written GW an e-mail about quality of the product? I have.
Waaargh wrote: Can we still take the Great Waaagh! Detachment from 1st ed. W!G? This will allow for the warbikestar to remain, but if it has been cut we will loose regular access to Mega Force Field.
Have you guys written GW an e-mail about quality of the product? I have.
I've read the ONE benefit to this book is the relics are available to any ork army now. So you can have the mega kff and the lukky stikk in one CAD. (Lukky stikk on warboss and mega kff on big mek)
I to have sent an email.
I'm still curious if the new Painmob rukes ha e shown up anywhere.
Kap'n Krump wrote: I was wondering - the title of this thread is 'orks and tau', but it seems like the last 15 pages or so have been dedicated to the ork side of things. And not without reason, there's quite a bit of new information.
But are tau getting anything noteworthy - or anything at all?
They're getting a new kit that just containing a crisis commander and the same hover drone-mounted ethereal that's been in both the start collecting box and Infiltration cadre in addition to the "new" book. I just hope they don't forget to put The Eight in the book this time.
Well, the new genestealer cultists rules showed up, and they are better than ork boyz. +1 BS, +1S, -1T, +2I, +1 Ld, 5+ save, pistol, ccw, rending claws, fearless. They are less tough, and lack ere we go for those charge rerolls, but have rending built in, a better save, far better initiative, and instead of the poor mob rule are straight up fearless.
MajorWesJanson wrote: Well, the new genestealer cultists rules showed up, and they are better than ork boyz. +1 BS, +1S, -1T, +2I, +1 Ld, 5+ save, pistol, ccw, rending claws, fearless. They are less tough, and lack ere we go for those charge rerolls, but have rending built in, a better save, far better initiative, and instead of the poor mob rule are straight up fearless.
For how many points a model, the same as an ork boy ?
MajorWesJanson wrote: Well, the new genestealer cultists rules showed up, and they are better than ork boyz. +1 BS, +1S, -1T, +2I, +1 Ld, 5+ save, pistol, ccw, rending claws, fearless. They are less tough, and lack ere we go for those charge rerolls, but have rending built in, a better save, far better initiative, and instead of the poor mob rule are straight up fearless.
For how many points a model, the same as an ork boy ?
If we are seeing the same points, or near same points, maybe the real answer is to "counts as" Ork boyz as genestealers.
Yikes! Those genestealer cultists put a LOT of troops choices to shame. I was going to say the PK Nob would make the difference but mass rending is preeeetty scary. At this point Ork boyz do seem to need the old choppa rule to make up for the crazy power creep that appears to be going on for 40K.
Maybe it's the only one that doesit get one, wouldn't surprise me at this point.
At least we still have a reason for hope. If this formation is decent, it could offset the Orkcurion. That means I get to save $30 and put it towards a decent box set, and I'll have some rules for the two painboys sitting in my closet to go along with it.
I feel like Orks are one of the most, if not THE most iconic xenos. You'd think we'd get a bit more love.
It is quite baffling. Unfortunately, looks like being an iconic "NPC" xenos just means you get to be a punching bag for the big boys that GW likes to shower with constant kit and rules updates.
I feel like Orks are one of the most, if not THE most iconic xenos. You'd think we'd get a bit more love.
We get great looking kits. But then they take those models to the rules guys who seem to care less about orks and we end up with the cool looking orkanaut that could have easily been a superheavy like the Imperial knight, but simply wasn't, and new rules sets that actually remove formations from older releases for no reason.
I feel like Orks are one of the most, if not THE most iconic xenos. You'd think we'd get a bit more love.
We get great looking kits. But then they take those models to the rules guys who seem to care less about orks and we end up with the cool looking orkanaut that could have easily been a superheavy like the Imperial knight, but simply wasn't, and new rules sets that actually remove formations from older releases for no reason.
Well, I suppose we have one thing going for us. It's can't get much worse!
I feel like Orks are one of the most, if not THE most iconic xenos. You'd think we'd get a bit more love.
We get great looking kits. But then they take those models to the rules guys who seem to care less about orks and we end up with the cool looking orkanaut that could have easily been a superheavy like the Imperial knight, but simply wasn't, and new rules sets that actually remove formations from older releases for no reason.
There does seem to be a big disconnect between the two parts of the company, unfortunately our stuff always seems to be rushed and the rules are half-assed and thrown in to make it a day to go with the models.
Waaargh wrote: Except you couldn't previously field W!G in a CAD. I don't know if that has changed... has it?!
You can take a suppliment in any army as a stand-alone CAD. If you do, they adhear to the suppliment exceptions but otherwise behave like a normal codex. In the ork case they have those two abysmal universal rules to deal with and get 0 bonuses outside new relics to toy with.
Farsight lets crisis suits be troops though and prefered enemy: orks in melee. W!G gets nothing even remotely similar.
Gav once redid a bunch of dark elf stuff because a group of players gave them feedback on the army.
It can't all just be everyone calling in to complain though but ideas on how to make it better with stuff you've tried and playtested and mathed out.
I'm not saying it will do anything but it did once just a idea.
Is that because you copy pasted together a rework of the Ghazzy supplement?
Or because you brought Grukk back but saddled him with the Nobz we all have a bunch of (still with 25mm bases!?)
Or because the start collecting box has the seriously old boy squad and pales in comparison to the Tau one which you also updated (they just came off a bunch of updates).
Honestly this is half-half baked (so a quarter baked).
Well, Cust Serv is getting a phone call in the morning. I haven't touched my orks in forever and a day,and really considered selling them when ad mech dropped. For some time they've been a (I'll paint them when I get to it and all they do is collect dust.)
This update has made me really unhappy. Probably the only way I'll buy this thing is if I get a voucher. I have a collector's edition, All of sanctus reach, stormclaw boxes and altar of war. So...GW wants me to pay $33 for 3 new formations and an orkturion.... + whatever wording has been slightly modified, in one lousy paperback.
(also, I was one of those people that got burned on the Not a codex with imperial knights...I still haven't replaced my copy. - Now it's actually a codex. I just haven't bothered.)
What a lousy formation. Everybody gets a bonus that is either peanent or can be used every turn, but orks get a one use bonus.aybe GW likes to humiliate orks or just hates them?
hordrak wrote: What a lousy formation. Everybody gets a bonus that is either peanent or can be used every turn, but orks get a one use bonus.aybe GW likes to humiliate orks or just hates them?
I am by no means a tournament player but I think this is actually pretty good. Free PK attacks, without suffering from initiative disadvantage sounds pretty good.
Also something about having to time it right to achieve the maximum damage sounds like an interesting tactic.
Then again I run Dread Mobb because I think it's fun so clearly I'm in the wrong crowd :(
Spikeybits posted the Painmob formation. So if stuck in combat they get to make an assaultphase during the movement phase. This is pretty nice as the enemy is not allowed to hit back and the orks is allowed to make another assault during the real assault phase. It could work a little bit like consolidate into combat. To bad it's only once per battle!
hordrak wrote: What a lousy formation. Everybody gets a bonus that is either peanent or can be used every turn, but orks get a one use bonus.aybe GW likes to humiliate orks or just hates them?
Wtf are you talking about? It's an amazing ability and one of the best in any starter set.
The core set is extremely flexible. You can take a nob bike squad add a pain boy on bike, Take a 30 man blob of boyz or 12 man trukk boyz And a deff Dred.
You can take morgroks boss boyz, or a cad with the fw bike boss and attach them to the unit as well Or you can keep it cheap. What ever the heck you want.
And once per battle you can Pile in and assault twice without your opponents ability to hit back. That's a pretty big deal and no where near lousy.
The worst thing about formation is the deff dred but it's only an 80pt tax on an ok unit.
hordrak wrote: What a lousy formation. Everybody gets a bonus that is either peanent or can be used every turn, but orks get a one use bonus.aybe GW likes to humiliate orks or just hates them?
I am by no means a tournament player but I think this is actually pretty good. Free PK attacks, without suffering from initiative disadvantage sounds pretty good.
Also something about having to time it right to achieve the maximum damage sounds like an interesting tactic.
Then again I run Dread Mobb because I think it's fun so clearly I'm in the wrong crowd :(
Dread mob is a decent army don't listen to the whiners.
This formation bonus is also a fairly cheap way to get an extra painboy into your army. And if you pair this formation with a greentide and place that painboy in the green tide you can potentially get double assaults with the tide. However I'll let someone else argue that one as I think attaching IC to units like that is not intended to transfer detachment bonuses that way. But find a way to get the greentide double pile in moves and assaults would be a massive bonus to that list.
hordrak wrote: What a lousy formation. Everybody gets a bonus that is either peanent or can be used every turn, but orks get a one use bonus.aybe GW likes to humiliate orks or just hates them?
Wtf are you talking about? It's an amazing ability and one of the best in any starter set.
The core set is extremely flexible. You can take a nob bike squad add a pain boy on bike, Take a 30 man blob of boyz or 12 man trukk boyz And a deff Dred.
You can take morgroks boss boyz, or a cad with the fw bike boss and attach them to the unit as well Or you can keep it cheap. What ever the heck you want.
And once per battle you can Pile in and assault twice without your opponents ability to hit back. That's a pretty big deal and no where near lousy.
The worst thing about formation is the deff dred but it's only an 80pt tax on an ok unit.
hordrak wrote: What a lousy formation. Everybody gets a bonus that is either peanent or can be used every turn, but orks get a one use bonus.aybe GW likes to humiliate orks or just hates them?
I am by no means a tournament player but I think this is actually pretty good. Free PK attacks, without suffering from initiative disadvantage sounds pretty good.
Also something about having to time it right to achieve the maximum damage sounds like an interesting tactic.
Then again I run Dread Mobb because I think it's fun so clearly I'm in the wrong crowd :(
Dread mob is a decent army don't listen to the whiners.
This formation bonus is also a fairly cheap way to get an extra painmob into your army. And if you pair this formation with a greentide and place that painboy in the green tide you can potentially get double assaults with the tide. However I'll let someone else argue that one as I think attaching IC to units like that is not intended to transfer detachment bonuses that way. But find a way to get the greentide double liken moves and assaults would be a massive bonus to that list.
I agree re: the Dred Mob, at least in the environment in which I play. Most people bring a mix of anti-inf and anti-tank, overwhelming them with nothing but armour is usually pretty successful.
With the Painmob...I don't know. You have to go through 2 rounds of combat (assuming you charged) in order to gain the benefit, it's only once per battle, and the entire formation has to do it together, you can't pick individual units. If we used old Fantasy rules and charged in the Movement phase, it'd be great. We'd basically get a free round of combat before the actual combat began, but as it is I can only see it being used for assaults you were already at least drawing.
What i want? I'll tell you - I want a formation that will relyably reach CC. If those guys do - great, but the effect will beused only in the second round of CC. Attacking without attacks back - great, but -1attack and no FC - bad. They are no more durable than without the formation and I just don't want to pay for a deffdread to get a few extra PK attacks, that may not even happen since I1.
hordrak wrote: What i want? I'll tell you - I want a formation that will relyably reach CC. If those guys do - great, but the effect will beused only in the second round of CC. Attacking without attacks back - great, but -1attack and no FC - bad. They are no more durable than without the formation and I just don't want to pay for a deffdread to get a few extra PK attacks, that may not even happen since I1.
I don't think you are looking at the flexibility of this formation.
Here is another list idea spam it!
1 trukk boy unit
3x nob on bike+ painboy on bike.
Deff dred
Repeat 4x for 1520pts that gives you a double assault on 4 formations 4 seperate times whenever you need it. It's MSU with a lot of powerklaws too.
hordrak wrote: What i want? I'll tell you - I want a formation that will relyably reach CC. If those guys do - great, but the effect will beused only in the second round of CC. Attacking without attacks back - great, but -1attack and no FC - bad. They are no more durable than without the formation and I just don't want to pay for a deffdread to get a few extra PK attacks, that may not even happen since I1.
I don't think you are looking at the flexibility of this formation. Here is another list idea spam it! 1 trukk boy unit 3x nob on bike+ painboy on bike. Deff dred
Repeat 4x for 1520pts that gives you a double assault on 4 formations 4 seperate times whenever you need it. It's MSU with a lot of powerklaws too.
Its an interesting Formation, ill give you that, but it being Once per battle makes it less useful and the fact that i have to already be in melee continues to make it less useful.
Though have others have said, this doesnt help Ork survivability, which is our primary issue.
There are a few situations when the pile on the pain could be very useful.
If you are in a combat with just a few models remaining (or against a non fearless army, you could activate the special rule, mop up or break the unit you are fighting, freeing all the units in the combat to charge in the assault phase.
If the formation would allow to make 2 sets of attacks in CC you could assault and get a lot more of attacks that can do damage. As it stands you will get a set of S3 attacks from boys and S4 from nobs. If you take PK you get S8 attacks, but you don't get a lot of thouse as they are realy expensive.
hordrak wrote: What i want? I'll tell you - I want a formation that will relyably reach CC. If those guys do - great, but the effect will beused only in the second round of CC. Attacking without attacks back - great, but -1attack and no FC - bad. They are no more durable than without the formation and I just don't want to pay for a deffdread to get a few extra PK attacks, that may not even happen since I1.
I don't think you are looking at the flexibility of this formation.
Here is another list idea spam it!
1 trukk boy unit
3x nob on bike+ painboy on bike.
Deff dred
Repeat 4x for 1520pts that gives you a double assault on 4 formations 4 seperate times whenever you need it. It's MSU with a lot of powerklaws too.
Though you could also just take 2 standard formations. This requires just as much troop choices, gives you just as much HQ slots, and you get far more elite slots (insert tankbusta's). Without having to take 400pt of deff dreads that arrive a turn to late to the party.
Personally I don't see this special rule ever coming into effect, I can count on 1 hand the number of times a combat has lasted more than 2 assault phases. Meaning that for the ability to come into effect only when you get assaulted, in which case you'd probably lose the combat and run away, unless you are fearless.. for which there are only a few option. A shooty boyz horde, that is standing next to a stompa and waits to get charged might be fun All the snap shots
I will give the ork decurion a try as soon as I get another trukk. Have 6 trukk loads of boyz and a nob unit with warboss (hope for a 1 on the ork table) and painboy in a battlewagon. Make everything red, and give them all boarding planks (for a potential 33" charge. add some anti-tank (to get the marines out of their boxes), maybe a unit of warbikes. And pray to Gork and Mork to get turn 1, and finish the game before your opponents gets to do anything.
So, for those of you that are complaining that this is a one use only formation bonus, can you please explain when you would use this more than once per game?
Because the requirements to use this rule are that you must A) be locked in combat and B) in your movement phase,
which requires you to be engaged in combat for two entire combat phases (yours and your opponents) with a unit you cannot kill in two assault phases, but you need an additional row of attacks in order to kill them. Which would be what exactly? Seems super situational..
I can't imagine the Deff Dread surviving in combat through two combats with a Dreadnought for example.
RFHolloway wrote: There are a few situations when the pile on the pain could be very useful.
If you are in a combat with just a few models remaining (or against a non fearless army, you could activate the special rule, mop up or break the unit you are fighting, freeing all the units in the combat to charge in the assault phase.
The green tide would benefit immensely from a pile in move and extra assault phase for Orks.
If you ever played with it before. It tends to spread out a bit especially when you multi assault.
Pile in would help consolidate and the extra assault would help keep it moving and clean up.
The problem is I don't think it's quite legal to allow the painboy from this detachment to confer the extra assault/pile in rule to a green tide.
Waaargh wrote: Except you couldn't previously field W!G in a CAD. I don't know if that has changed... has it?!
You can take a suppliment in any army as a stand-alone CAD. If you do, they adhear to the suppliment exceptions but otherwise behave like a normal codex. In the ork case they have those two abysmal universal rules to deal with and get 0 bonuses outside new relics to toy with.
Farsight lets crisis suits be troops though and prefered enemy: orks in melee. W!G gets nothing even remotely similar.
Not true, the old W!G explicitly stated that you only had access to those relics when using formations or detachments from the supplement, in the very fist rule of the book:
WAAAGH! GHAZGHKULL SPECIAL RULES
If you use the Formations or the Great Waaagh! Detachment in this book, the following supplemental special rules apply to all of the units they contain.
A Waaagh! Ghazghkull CAD was not possible, you had to use the detachment from the book, which was pretty much a CAD with a mandatory elite choice and randomly deep-striking units instead of objective secured.
Actually, I'm considering the possibilities of this Painmob formation. I could see it being somewhat useful against Necrons Warriors. My experience with Ork Boyz vs. Necron Warriors is that when I assault them, my unit is more often than not locked in CC for the rest of the game. This bonus could help whittle them down some. Not something to build a list around, but a nice bonus. (Please, don't bring up "but what about Wraiths, but what about Flayed Ones, etc." -- this is just an example of one situation where the rule might be useful.)
Perhaps in the future they will give us a bonus that will let us "Pile On Da Pain!" more than once per game? That's just speculation, but a fun idea.
GW really does seem to be pushing Orks to be an assault-only army, don't they?
The problem is I don't think it's quite legal to allow the painboy from this detachment to confer the extra assault/pile in rule to a green tide.
I guess that would be the interesting question. Also that's pretty grey since the Green Tide has been deleted from the new W!G supplement.
The formation rule doesn't come from the painboy, it can die and the rule would still be in place. But the rule only goes for everthing in the formation, which is then by default not the 100+ boyz from the green tide formation. I think that in theory you could put the painboy from the painmob formation in the green tide formation, but then if you use the ability, only the painboy would get a free attack.
That rule in painmob is interesting but it wont really do much because once again we lack any way of surviving to utilize it.
Solo deffdredd never gets combat, so hes out.
Footnobz/boyz have a durability issue, and this rule basically requires them to survive 2 assault phases to really benefit from it. MANz could do it, but theyre not in the formation. Boyz and footnobz even with 'eavy armor would either kill their target or die off in that time.
i was expecting some kind of super fnp. Should know better than to expect something good for orks.
The problem is I don't think it's quite legal to allow the painboy from this detachment to confer the extra assault/pile in rule to a green tide.
I guess that would be the interesting question. Also that's pretty grey since the Green Tide has been deleted from the new W!G supplement.
The formation rule doesn't come from the painboy, it can die and the rule would still be in place. But the rule only goes for everthing in the formation, which is then by default not the 100+ boyz from the green tide formation. I think that in theory you could put the painboy from the painmob formation in the green tide formation, but then if you use the ability, only the painboy would get a free attack.
That's the way I play it. However there are those who argue that the detachments rules are a per unit basis not model and as long as one model has the rule then that unit benefits.
This is also a neat combination since the warlord can take the fearless boss poll and the green tide can waagh each turn. Greatly benefiting the pain boy formation.
But as I said I agree with you and don't play that way.
The green tide is also still legal according to GW.
JimOnMars wrote: Nothing is going to change unless we all CALL THEM.
i would also suggest to call or send them an email (with constructive comments)
I know, probably, they would not listen to us and change the rules, but there is a chance, it doesn't cost anything to do it and maybe they will use our suggestion.
There is a chance. That's how the looted wagon was put into white dwarf even though GW was moving toward no models means no rules.
Personally I think we can get the green tide back into the book or white dwarf and possibly ghaz as a warlord choice for the waaagh detachement. That's all I think we truly need. That allows you a painboy hq, and a waagh detachment led by ghaz with enough points to add decent aux. ghaz would still be a 225pt tax but he would be a force multiplier.
JimOnMars wrote: Nothing is going to change unless we all CALL THEM.
i would also suggest to call or send them an email (with constructive comments)
I know, probably, they would not listen to us and change the rules, but there is a chance, it doesn't cost anything to do it and maybe they will use our suggestion.
I totally agree with this sentiment, but I think the Ork player base needs to come up with a sound argument first. I'm not a rules writer, or I'd get the ball rolling. We need someone who is a solid rules lawyer to get started on this. I'll help in any way possible.
JimOnMars wrote: Nothing is going to change unless we all CALL THEM.
i would also suggest to call or send them an email (with constructive comments)
I know, probably, they would not listen to us and change the rules, but there is a chance, it doesn't cost anything to do it and maybe they will use our suggestion.
I totally agree with this sentiment, but I think the Ork player base needs to come up with a sound argument first. I'm not a rules writer, or I'd get the ball rolling. We need someone who is a solid rules lawyer to get started on this. I'll help in any way possible.
Frozocrone mail has some solid suggestion:
Frozocrone wrote: I emailed GW last week concerning this release and got a reply this morning. I'm hoping that they do pay attention (although I completely forgot to add Ghaz to my complaints) but they did reply and this is what they had to say.
My email
Spoiler:
To whom it may concern,
I have recently seen the Ork rules as published in the new updated supplement and as a customer, I am very disappointed with the treatment they have been given. I feel as if my previous books that I purchased have become obsolete, since the formations as shown in the book are copied and pasted from existing books, with minor changes (such as Rage instead of Furious Charge on Gorkanauts) It would have been nice to see a large variety of new formations as opposed to three Flyer formations that could just have easily been condensed into one, let alone the fact there already was the Skyboss Wingnutz formation. There are other things that the formations and/or the units themselves need, but that is not why I am disappointed.
In addition to that, there are no new models (Grukk does not count, as he was released in Stormclaw) and no new Codex announced that would address the current problems in the army that I find keep appearing every time I use my Orks. Again, this is not why I am disappointed.
This is why I am disappointed. What should have been done, was a complete rewrite of the Codex and rules. Here are just a few of the things I can think off the top of my head that would have made me support this purchase:
1) There should have been a formation that allowed you to take multiple Painboyz/Wierdboyz/Big Meks with bonuses for each model, as opposed to only one per core. Possibly with a 4++ Feel no Pain, harness psychic powers on 3+, have free Wargear respectively.
2) Ork Boyz should not have been six units in the Warband (or three in the case of the Goff Killmob). Some people want to run more, some people want to run less. Every other super-formation (e.g. Decurion, Warhost, Hunter Contingent) has always allowed flexibility in the amount of what units and how many you can bring for your core. For example, the Necron Decurion allows you to take an Overlord which can be swapped out for a number 0-2 Monoliths, 0-3 Lychguard, 1-4 units of Immortals 1-3 units of Tomb Blades and 2-8 units of Necron Warriors.The only flexibility Orks have across their core formations is exchanging the Nobz for Meganobz and the Warboss for Grukk.
3) General re-writes to the rules that support releases. Gorkanauts/Morkanauts should have been immune to the vehicle damage chart like super heavies are, being the same size as Imperial Knights that they are. Deff Dreads should have been immune to Crew Shaken/Stunned, as well as been able to put in squadrons. Considering your company is pushing sales of Ork Walkers, having rules that are good would tempt me to part with my money.
4) As for changes in the rules of the units themselves, there are far too many to go through, but here are a few.
[a]Three Nobz with Power Klaws are more expensive than three Meganobz, with considerably worse stats.
[b] Vehicles can purchase Stikkbombs, but most units already have Stikkbombs which renders the upgrade close to useless.
[c] Red Paint Jobs forfeit a turn of shooting just to move an extra inch.
[d] Nob Bikers are more expensive than Thunderwolf Cavalry, while having worse stats.
[e] Cybork bodies can be rendered obsolete simply by adding a Painboy or Mad Dok Grotsnik to a unit.
[f] Da Boss iz Watchin' should have been +/- 2 to Mob Rule. Although Mob Rule is in itself, a bad rule due to how it works, the current form of Da Boss iz Watchin basically renders the table moot, where a D6 of 2-5 automatically results in Squabble. Not everyone wants to run thirty boyz in a squad.
Despite this, none of what I have proposed, or even something to that effect, was implemented. So that leaves the question, what encourages me and a lot of other Ork players to spend their money on this release? Simply put, very little, if anything. To me, this release shows a clear lack of knowledge and/or interest in your game, as well as what your customers want.
Suffice to say, I have become disillusioned with your company and will not be supporting this purchase.
[...]
in the mail that i have sent i commented mainly the supplement:
Spoiler:
- The core formations are too costly, point wise, and not flexible at all.
- In a full game a player, usually, uses something like 1500 or 1800 points, now the waagh band+the council of waagh units are 1200 point WITHOUT any upgrade, this clearly makes it close to impossible to even think of playing this units, making them useless in the game.
- The waagh-band requires too many boyz and does not have any specific options. For example, it could be re-balanced by requiring only 3 or from 3 to 6 boyz and include other options like tankbusta, loota or warbikers. These features would strongly balance this unit and increase its likability.
- The goff kill mob requires too many boyz and a lot of walkers, yet, it does not provide any help in rendering the walker more survivable.
- The main benefit of the detachment seems to be the ability to waagh every turn with Ghazkull to give him a 2+ invulnerable save and fearless treat to the army. On paper, this is fantastic, but the only way to play him is in a formation of 600 points, and if you buy any upgrade in that formation the cost skyrockets and makes it unrealistic to be able to make such a play. Since it is a goff detachment, let us use the ghazkull in place of any worboss in the goff kill mob or in the waagh band.
- "Da boss Iz Watchin' " rule is worse then the regular mob rule. When one plays orks he does not always want a high roll in the mob rule table. Whereas, if the rule was something like: "you can add or SUBTRACT 2 from the mob rule table" it would have been much more balanced.
- Unfortunately I have to say that the 3 new formation released seem rushed, and are mediocre at best. They are not on the same level as the past work done by the company.
This formation is crap. Any enemy unit that has survived combat for 2 turns with boyz or nobz isn't going to be phased by a few more strength 3 attacks. The vast majority of time the orks will either win or be swept after 2 combats.
JimOnMars wrote: Nothing is going to change unless we all CALL THEM.
i would also suggest to call or send them an email (with constructive comments)
I know, probably, they would not listen to us and change the rules, but there is a chance, it doesn't cost anything to do it and maybe they will use our suggestion.
I totally agree with this sentiment, but I think the Ork player base needs to come up with a sound argument first. I'm not a rules writer, or I'd get the ball rolling. We need someone who is a solid rules lawyer to get started on this. I'll help in any way possible.
Frozocrone mail has some solid suggestion:
Frozocrone wrote: I emailed GW last week concerning this release and got a reply this morning. I'm hoping that they do pay attention (although I completely forgot to add Ghaz to my complaints) but they did reply and this is what they had to say.
My email
Spoiler:
To whom it may concern,
I have recently seen the Ork rules as published in the new updated supplement and as a customer, I am very disappointed with the treatment they have been given. I feel as if my previous books that I purchased have become obsolete, since the formations as shown in the book are copied and pasted from existing books, with minor changes (such as Rage instead of Furious Charge on Gorkanauts) It would have been nice to see a large variety of new formations as opposed to three Flyer formations that could just have easily been condensed into one, let alone the fact there already was the Skyboss Wingnutz formation. There are other things that the formations and/or the units themselves need, but that is not why I am disappointed.
In addition to that, there are no new models (Grukk does not count, as he was released in Stormclaw) and no new Codex announced that would address the current problems in the army that I find keep appearing every time I use my Orks. Again, this is not why I am disappointed.
This is why I am disappointed. What should have been done, was a complete rewrite of the Codex and rules. Here are just a few of the things I can think off the top of my head that would have made me support this purchase:
1) There should have been a formation that allowed you to take multiple Painboyz/Wierdboyz/Big Meks with bonuses for each model, as opposed to only one per core. Possibly with a 4++ Feel no Pain, harness psychic powers on 3+, have free Wargear respectively.
2) Ork Boyz should not have been six units in the Warband (or three in the case of the Goff Killmob). Some people want to run more, some people want to run less. Every other super-formation (e.g. Decurion, Warhost, Hunter Contingent) has always allowed flexibility in the amount of what units and how many you can bring for your core. For example, the Necron Decurion allows you to take an Overlord which can be swapped out for a number 0-2 Monoliths, 0-3 Lychguard, 1-4 units of Immortals 1-3 units of Tomb Blades and 2-8 units of Necron Warriors.The only flexibility Orks have across their core formations is exchanging the Nobz for Meganobz and the Warboss for Grukk.
3) General re-writes to the rules that support releases. Gorkanauts/Morkanauts should have been immune to the vehicle damage chart like super heavies are, being the same size as Imperial Knights that they are. Deff Dreads should have been immune to Crew Shaken/Stunned, as well as been able to put in squadrons. Considering your company is pushing sales of Ork Walkers, having rules that are good would tempt me to part with my money.
4) As for changes in the rules of the units themselves, there are far too many to go through, but here are a few.
[a]Three Nobz with Power Klaws are more expensive than three Meganobz, with considerably worse stats.
[b] Vehicles can purchase Stikkbombs, but most units already have Stikkbombs which renders the upgrade close to useless.
[c] Red Paint Jobs forfeit a turn of shooting just to move an extra inch.
[d] Nob Bikers are more expensive than Thunderwolf Cavalry, while having worse stats.
[e] Cybork bodies can be rendered obsolete simply by adding a Painboy or Mad Dok Grotsnik to a unit.
[f] Da Boss iz Watchin' should have been +/- 2 to Mob Rule. Although Mob Rule is in itself, a bad rule due to how it works, the current form of Da Boss iz Watchin basically renders the table moot, where a D6 of 2-5 automatically results in Squabble. Not everyone wants to run thirty boyz in a squad.
Despite this, none of what I have proposed, or even something to that effect, was implemented. So that leaves the question, what encourages me and a lot of other Ork players to spend their money on this release? Simply put, very little, if anything. To me, this release shows a clear lack of knowledge and/or interest in your game, as well as what your customers want.
Suffice to say, I have become disillusioned with your company and will not be supporting this purchase.
[...]
in the mail that i have sent i commented mainly the supplement:
Spoiler:
- The core formations are too costly, point wise, and not flexible at all.
- In a full game a player, usually, uses something like 1500 or 1800 points, now the waagh band+the council of waagh units are 1200 point WITHOUT any upgrade, this clearly makes it close to impossible to even think of playing this units, making them useless in the game.
- The waagh-band requires too many boyz and does not have any specific options. For example, it could be re-balanced by requiring only 3 or from 3 to 6 boyz and include other options like tankbusta, loota or warbikers. These features would strongly balance this unit and increase its likability.
- The goff kill mob requires too many boyz and a lot of walkers, yet, it does not provide any help in rendering the walker more survivable.
- The main benefit of the detachment seems to be the ability to waagh every turn with Ghazkull to give him a 2+ invulnerable save and fearless treat to the army. On paper, this is fantastic, but the only way to play him is in a formation of 600 points, and if you buy any upgrade in that formation the cost skyrockets and makes it unrealistic to be able to make such a play. Since it is a goff detachment, let us use the ghazkull in place of any worboss in the goff kill mob or in the waagh band.
- "Da boss Iz Watchin' " rule is worse then the regular mob rule. When one plays orks he does not always want a high roll in the mob rule table. Whereas, if the rule was something like: "you can add or SUBTRACT 2 from the mob rule table" it would have been much more balanced.
- Unfortunately I have to say that the 3 new formation released seem rushed, and are mediocre at best. They are not on the same level as the past work done by the company.
Looks like a great start. I'll read though it all and see what I can add. I feel like we should build a comprehensive list with all the reasonable arguments, and with comparisons to as many recent examples from other armies as we can find and really try and hammer it home.
FWIW, I sent an email to GW yesterday and got a pretty quick reply:
Spoiler:
To The Games Workshop Customer Service Dept.,
I have a few complaints about one of your recent products, and was hoping my letter could be passed on to the GW Games Design team.
I’ve been a loyal Games Workshop customer for years, specifically as a fan of Orks in Warhammer 40,000. I’ve amassed thousands of points in models and hours of fun gameplay. I was waiting anxiously for the upcoming Waaagh! Ghazgkull supplement revision that, I thought, would give my favorite army some much-needed oomph for a seventh edition metagame that sees several armies becoming decidedly advantageous to play over others.
I’m sad to say the product didn’t live up to my expectations.
I would like to say I’m not solely complaining. Though there are definitely some interesting new mechanics in the form of detachments and formations that could impact higher-points-value games (1850pts and up) for Ork players, the unfortunate fact is that little of the new material included in the supplement is significant for small- to medium-sized points games (1000-1500pt) - which is the majority of the games played in my area. Requiring the use of the Council of Waaagh! formation to be able to utilize any customization of your army while ensuring the Fearless special rule is a handicap for most Ork players.
Other armies, such as Eldar and Necron, have army-specific detachments using core formations that are flexible and allow for a range of play styles at many different points levels. The ability to compete with these detachments is something Orks have been needing for a while. I definitely understand that one of the main rules of 40K is to have fun, narrative-fuled games with your opponent, and to adjust any rules as you see fit, but most players - at least in the United States - prefer to play using only the rules as presented in official GW materials. Obviously Warhammer 40,000 is a game, and games should be played for fun, but when an opponent has a decided advantage over you, the enjoyment diminishes rapidly.
This letter isn’t simply criticism as I do have a suggestion which would help ameliorate the problems I outlined; it would be very easy to implement and would drive sales of models.
Allowing a player to substitute Ghazghkull for a Warboss in the Waaagh-band and Goff Killmob (or as an alternative to Grukk Face-rippa in the case of the Killmob) would allow players to benefit from all the rules of the Great Waaagh-band in games using lower to mid points levels. This could be distributed as an errata online, or published as a few lines in a future issue of White Dwarf Weekly.
It would also boost sales of the Ghazghkull miniature itself - I currently don’t own one, as I wouldn’t find much use for it in the games I play. I know that if this errata was introduced, my next purchase would be a Ghazghkull model, and I suspect many other players would follow suit. As is, I would have a hard time recommending the purchase of this model, and indeed the Waaagh! Ghazghkull supplement in general.
Thanks very much for taking the time to read this letter, and I hope my suggestion will be taken into consideration.
Regards
This is what I got back a few hours later:
Spoiler:
Thanks for writing into us with your feedback of Orks. I appreciate you taking the time to detail your concerns for the rules of Codex: Orks and Waaagh! Ghazghkull- A Codex: Ork Supplement, and the direction of Orks in Warhammer 40,000 7th Edition. Your examples help to paint a picture of your concerns for Orks, and to show the limitations you see on the faction. While Customer Service is not directly involved in the design process, we will send your comments to the appropriate parties (Design Studio and Publications Team) as feedback for consideration; that puts the onus on us to make Orks desirable for you as our customer.
Please let me know if you have any other concerns, or should you have any questions (or additional feedback).
Hopefully, we can make it fun and exciting for you to play Orks again.
I think it's definitely worth sending emails and calling. If enough people are doing it, GW will at least know it's not a handful of one-off cranks and sore losers. Giving ideas and suggestions along with positively-worded criticism also shows we're not all psychos with amger management (we just like to PLAY them in 40K).
Yeah I wrote that email when I was salty at the treatment Orks were given. I could have been more thoughtful in constructive criticism as opposed to ' You haven't done this! Not buying your stuff! Wahwahwahwahwah!'
I just hope it comes off as 'concerned consumer who isn't willing to part with their money' as opposed to 'this guy mad because Orks < Eldar'
I too would purchase Ghaz, or at least scratch build a version of him since I hate finecast, should he be errated into Warband.
That's just a wordier version of the stock response. Acknowledge your concerns, empathize, pass the buck, encouragement. It's the same format that others have posted and what I got when expressing concerns regarding 6th and 7th editions of 40k.
warboss wrote: That's just a wordier version of the stock response. Acknowledge your concerns, empathize, pass the buck, encouragement. It's the same format that others have posted and what I got when expressing concerns regarding 6th and 7th editions of 40k.
Yeah, but it's slso coming from customer support. About a product that still hasn't seen wide release (right now it's still just early updates to digital versions). The people answering these emails literally don't have anything else TO say. We're not looking to get a response from them that rules are changing, we're asking them to pass these complaints and comments along to the design team in the hopes they'll announce a change. It's sending these emails in volume to let GW know we're not OK with the rules.
I still belive the painmob formation can be useful! But not when YOU are assaulting units. If you choose to assault something then you probably decided that it was a target that you could beat in 1-2 assault turns. But the time when the "Pile on tha pain" rule is useful is when a though unit have charged you instead! You probably lost the assault phase during the enemy turn, but you are still standing. Having an extra phase where you can put some hurt on the enemy without him fighting back is a great way to make a comeback. It also makes it more viable to decline a challenge during the enemy turn if your enemy has a character that very likely will kill your nob, The nob will still get a chance to swing his klaw during your turn without having to worry about a challenge.
edit1: Thats why it would be nice to be able to use it several times as well. Maybe your enemy have a very though assault oriented army like space wolves with thunderwolves and wulfen. Or maybe you are fighting necrons and they just won't die so you need more attacks to wear them down.
edit2: I would love this as command formation! Say Grotsnik and 1-3 Painboys. They give you "Pile on tha pain" to any unit they join. And you are able to use it through the whole game. In addition Grotsnik gives +4FNP :-D
Admittedly if i were to break out my orks again i'd be abusing the painmob and blitz brigade standalone formations.
Painmob isnt a terrible formation, its just not helping orks in the field theyre suffering in. BUT! its not a W!G formation so no terribad mob rule penalties.
Though i wish the deffdredd was optional. It really puts a stick in the mud for that formation. Best i can come up with utilizes two painmob formations and the blitz brigade at ~1600pts. Either sac some armor upgrades on dem boyz or nobz or take a squad of grotz for one of the require troops so you can bring a CAD with a warboss + the last boy squad for the 5th wagon, but i couldnt really get it under 1850 because of those damn deffdredds hogging ~100pts each. Really dont want to dock the nobz units to less than 5 since thats a LOT of empty space in a wagon as it is, and 5 nobz can still bring pain (just at a lousy cost ratio).
Could technically bring battlewagons for the boyz and trukks for the nobz via a cad, but then i lose scout Once again, cant quite do what would be great because of the formation restrictions being so damn costly.
Detachment bonuses don't transfer to models outside it. So no painboy to give the green tide more fighting. Also in pretty sure the full rules say you have to use what it shows on the box.
The Painmob ain't bad, tbf. I mean, it's a formation that comes in a box designed to sell some minis, so it wasn't going to be groundbreaking stuff. Orks suffer in close combat if still engaged after a first turn charge, and this could be a bit of a boost in those scrums where you're in danger of getting bogged down. It's a bump, not a crutch.
the_Armyman wrote: The Painmob ain't bad, tbf. I mean, it's a formation that comes in a box designed to sell some minis, so it wasn't going to be groundbreaking stuff. Orks suffer in close combat if still engaged after a first turn charge, and this could be a bit of a boost in those scrums where you're in danger of getting bogged down. It's a bump, not a crutch.
In a sense, it's not bad because it at least helps the orks instead of helping your opponent (imagine if the painboy had to challenge and accept challenges!)
Since it uses commonly included units, that's also a non-negative. I'd take if if I was taking a Deff Dread anyway, but I doubt I'd pay the "Dread Tax" in a non-walker list.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Orock wrote: Detachment bonuses don't transfer to models outside it. So no painboy to give the green tide more fighting. Also in pretty sure the full rules say you have to use what it shows on the box.
I know these questions are answered, but I will just elaborate some more on the answers.
Waaargh wrote: A) The Great Waaagh! Detachment is out? Can someone please confirm this, as it's a harsh blow to competitive orks if so!
B) If out, can we somehow take W!G stuff in a CAD now?
B1) Most importantly can we take a big mek with a MFF in a warbikestar?
B2) Can we make a warboss who can take DLSand other Gifts of Gork and Mork and/or Kustom Gubbinz on the same model?
C) If we can take W!G in a CAD does the rules for Biggest and Best, and Da Boss is Watchin' follow along or are they cut out?
Please answer if you have the material.
A) Kind of, the digital editions are out. At least for us that already had an versioon of Waagh Ghazkull already. Don't know if you can buy a new digital edition copy and get it right away though.
B) No.
B1) Yes, if you take a formation which include a big mek (Dred mob is the only one), or take a Great waaagh band-detachment. Then you have to take either a Waagh band or a Goff killmob as a core choice. Then you can take a single big mek as a command choice.
B2) The warboss can have one Gift of Gork and mork relic and several Orkimedes kustom gubbinz relics.
C) If you by that mean that you take an IC from the Waaagh Ghaz supplement and put the IC in a unit from a CAD. Then the rules Da biggest an da best and the Boss is watchin from the Waagh Ghaz supplement will carry over to that unit. It specifically says so in the Ghaz supplement rules.
warboss wrote: That's just a wordier version of the stock response. Acknowledge your concerns, empathize, pass the buck, encouragement. It's the same format that others have posted and what I got when expressing concerns regarding 6th and 7th editions of 40k.
Yeah, but it's slso coming from customer support. About a product that still hasn't seen wide release (right now it's still just early updates to digital versions). The people answering these emails literally don't have anything else TO say. We're not looking to get a response from them that rules are changing, we're asking them to pass these complaints and comments along to the design team in the hopes they'll announce a change. It's sending these emails in volume to let GW know we're not OK with the rules.
Hopefully you are also limiting your purchases as well because as long as purchases continue as usual GW doesn't CARE whether or not you are happy with rules.
It's sales they are after. Not satisfaction for rules. That's only of interest if it limits sales.
Voting with wallet is only way to make them change anything.
By "out" I mean is the Great Waaagh! Detachment stricken from the records, is it removed from the Waaagh! Ghazghkull supplement, is it out of the game?
So far I've had a "yes" and a "no" to my first question.
I don't think it is possible to make a decent warbikestar if you try to fit in the Great Waaagh!-band Detachment.
By "out" I mean is the Great Waaagh! Detachment stricken from the records, is it removed from the Waaagh! Ghazghkull supplement, is it out of the game?
So far I've had a "yes" and a "no" to my first question.
I don't think it is possible to make a decent warbikestar if you try to fit in the Great Waaagh!-band Detachment.
It's not in v2 of W!G, but GW has said the first version is still completely valid in 7E. The only people saying it's invalidated are people assuming tournaments will ban content from v1 as it's "not the most current volume". Which hasn't actually been said by any tournament officials and likely WON'T be, because that would be moronic.
The argument goes that because there's an updated version, it must be used; otherwise people could take a 5E codex and use it in tournaments. Which is doubly moronic, because W!G v1 is still a 7E book, and all its rules are compatible with the current edition.
Then again, if a tournament flatly bans the book because of that technicality without taking anything else into consideration, those people are idiots and that's another of the many, MANY reasons not to play tournament 40K.
E: And if someone won't play you in a casual game due to that technicality, you have every reason in the world to punch them in the stomach as hard as you can, no jury would convict you.
Multimoog wrote: It's not in v2 of W!G, but GW has said the first version is still completely valid in 7E. The only people saying it's invalidated are people assuming tournaments will ban content from v1 as it's "not the most current volume". Which hasn't actually been said by any tournament officials and likely WON'T be, because that would be moronic.
ITC:
All current source material is allowed
Now...Do they define an older version of the book, while still 7E, "current"? It doesn't say "written under the current edition of 40k" it just says "current". Is it possible for a book to have 2 versions that are both "current" when they have different ages?
Multimoog wrote: It's not in v2 of W!G, but GW has said the first version is still completely valid in 7E. The only people saying it's invalidated are people assuming tournaments will ban content from v1 as it's "not the most current volume". Which hasn't actually been said by any tournament officials and likely WON'T be, because that would be moronic.
ITC:
All current source material is allowed
Now...Do they define an older version of the book, while still 7E, "current"? It doesn't say "written under the current edition of 40k" it just says "current". Is it possible for a book to have 2 versions that are both "current" when they have different ages?
GW says the first version is valid in games of 40K 7E. Like I said, if a tournament is denying that's current, they're dumb. Then again, there hasn't been any tournament ruling anywhere. Ask a tournament official or wait until an official statement is made either way. The first version is officially still valid in casual games. Or cry and moan, I don't care (that's the most appealing aspect of the hobby for most 40K players these days anyway).
Itc has already switched over to the newest ghazzy suppliment, and stated they were saddened they could no longer run the green tide, and even ran a game thursday with the new suppliment.
Also its not just tournaments. Its VERY clearly the updated version, I wouldnt let anyone playing me use it anymore than I would let them use their 5th ed core rule book. Things change and you have to adapt or move on.
Really? I saw their stream that they did Friday, the same one where they talked about being swarmed with deliveries, and they didn't seem to give an answer one way or the other; in fact I remember Reece saying specifically that he didn't know how they were gonna handle that and that it really sucks having your army invalidated.
Just had a positive thought. This is still the Waaagh ghazkull supplement afterall, not the full ork codex.maybe the reason the green tide was removed was so they can put it in the Ork codex proper as a core choice there instead. Bad news in the short term, but better in the long run as being in the core book would mean no boss is watching or biggest and best. They could do say green tide and a speed freeks based formation as core (to push new buggy kits they would be required) and maybe borrow a few others like how far sight shares some formations with core tau. And a proper ork book that updates units could help Waaagh ghazkull formations in return like making the nauts into superheavies and buffing dreads.
In the "Core" section it has a parenthetical 1 by Warboss - can Ghaz be brought as the Warboss in the core detachments? Or is that parenthetical 1 just a note for Grukk to be okay to bring?
Orock wrote: Itc has already switched over to the newest ghazzy suppliment, and stated they were saddened they could no longer run the green tide, and even ran a game thursday with the new suppliment.
Also its not just tournaments. Its VERY clearly the updated version, I wouldnt let anyone playing me use it anymore than I would let them use their 5th ed core rule book. Things change and you have to adapt or move on.
You sound like a reasonable and thoughtful opponent, but are you saying that since I've only got the original, more expensive edition that you would refuse to play against my council of the waagh formation?
I also use gunwagons from IA8 in tournaments, should I shred these books?
Orock wrote: Itc has already switched over to the newest ghazzy suppliment, and stated they were saddened they could no longer run the green tide, and even ran a game thursday with the new suppliment.
Also its not just tournaments. Its VERY clearly the updated version, I wouldnt let anyone playing me use it anymore than I would let them use their 5th ed core rule book. Things change and you have to adapt or move on.
You sound like a reasonable and thoughtful opponent, but are you saying that since I've only got the original, more expensive edition that you would refuse to play against my council of the waagh formation?
I also use gunwagons from IA8 in tournaments, should I shred these books?
You probably should, yes considering how old IA8 :p Don't blame the PLAYER for GW"s lack of giving-a-damn about rule clarity. There has never been an instance where two copies of the same book have been legal.
This is my guess. Green Tide was deleted since relic options were expanded to include access to Orkimedes Kustom Gubbins and Relics of Gork and Mork.
This means that you could have combined Big Bosspole and DLS in the same mass unit of ork boyz, which would mean 10 combined units of orks that each have WS 5 and fearless in the same unit. It's just too obvious of a thing to do.
If a new Ork codex came out and wasn't terrible, that would save me from shelving the entire game. I'm old, and busy, and hobby time is at a premium so it's really hard to spend it on a game who's creators wont invest in it appropriately.
Multimoog wrote: It's not in v2 of W!G, but GW has said the first version is still completely valid in 7E. The only people saying it's invalidated are people assuming tournaments will ban content from v1 as it's "not the most current volume". Which hasn't actually been said by any tournament officials and likely WON'T be, because that would be moronic.
ITC:
All current source material is allowed
Now...Do they define an older version of the book, while still 7E, "current"? It doesn't say "written under the current edition of 40k" it just says "current". Is it possible for a book to have 2 versions that are both "current" when they have different ages?
GW says the first version is valid in games of 40K 7E. Like I said, if a tournament is denying that's current, they're dumb. Then again, there hasn't been any tournament ruling anywhere. Ask a tournament official or wait until an official statement is made either way. The first version is officially still valid in casual games. Or cry and moan, I don't care (that's the most appealing aspect of the hobby for most 40K players these days anyway).
I've sent my own feedback to GW as well but I never heard anything back. I also haven't seen GW post anything about both books being validated. i know it's something GW would say but until something official comes out I wouldn't allow old books to be valid.
Regarding IA8 rumour again says forgeworld has no intention of updating that book. Someone online stated forgeworld wasn't impressed with the sales of models related to that book.
Orock wrote: Itc has already switched over to the newest ghazzy suppliment, and stated they were saddened they could no longer run the green tide, and even ran a game thursday with the new suppliment.
Also its not just tournaments. Its VERY clearly the updated version, I wouldnt let anyone playing me use it anymore than I would let them use their 5th ed core rule book. Things change and you have to adapt or move on.
You sound like a reasonable and thoughtful opponent, but are you saying that since I've only got the original, more expensive edition that you would refuse to play against my council of the waagh formation?
I also use gunwagons from IA8 in tournaments, should I shred these books?
Hey I play orks too ya know. If I was playing someone and they had the original I wouldnt mind if they printed out the new updates and slipped em into their book, or heck just printed out the new stuff and ddi not have the old book. But yet I would insist on the most recent updated rules regardless of how crap they are. As far as IA8, I still use it. Its so old it dosent even have hull points listed for vehicles, but there are updated faq's out there with them. They havent replaced IA8 yet so I would be ok with it. But if they did, and for example got rid of everyones favorite bike-making-troop warboss wazdakka, I would not let someone continue to run him, regardless of how much it invalidates their army. You sholdnt have to spend half an hour pre game on a pickup discussing what is and isnt illegal. Even if the book is crap, its at least universal.
Also if you want to complain about units suddenly becoming invalidated, there is a long history of that. Ask space wolves players if they miss their leman russes ( yes they used to have them) or iron warrior players if they miss their imperial guard basalisks.
TedNugent wrote: This is my guess. Green Tide was deleted since relic options were expanded to include access to Orkimedes Kustom Gubbins and Relics of Gork and Mork.
This means that you could have combined Big Bosspole and DLS in the same mass unit of ork boyz, which would mean 10 combined units of orks that each have WS 5 and fearless in the same unit. It's just too obvious of a thing to do.
You can anyway, I used to run the tide with a second Warboss from a CAD equipped with DLS.
Orock wrote: Itc has already switched over to the newest ghazzy suppliment, and stated they were saddened they could no longer run the green tide, and even ran a game thursday with the new suppliment.
Also its not just tournaments. Its VERY clearly the updated version, I wouldnt let anyone playing me use it anymore than I would let them use their 5th ed core rule book. Things change and you have to adapt or move on.
You sound like a reasonable and thoughtful opponent, but are you saying that since I've only got the original, more expensive edition that you would refuse to play against my council of the waagh formation?
I also use gunwagons from IA8 in tournaments, should I shred these books?
Hey I play orks too ya know. If I was playing someone and they had the original I wouldnt mind if they printed out the new updates and slipped em into their book, or heck just printed out the new stuff and ddi not have the old book. But yet I would insist on the most recent updated rules regardless of how crap they are. As far as IA8, I still use it. Its so old it dosent even have hull points listed for vehicles, but there are updated faq's out there with them. They havent replaced IA8 yet so I would be ok with it. But if they did, and for example got rid of everyones favorite bike-making-troop warboss wazdakka, I would not let someone continue to run him, regardless of how much it invalidates their army. You sholdnt have to spend half an hour pre game on a pickup discussing what is and isnt illegal. Even if the book is crap, its at least universal.
Also if you want to complain about units suddenly becoming invalidated, there is a long history of that. Ask space wolves players if they miss their leman russes ( yes they used to have them) or iron warrior players if they miss their imperial guard basalisks.
So, can I play the Council of the Waaagh formation against you or not? My printer is busted, and besides, most GW stores may frown on me bringing printed out pages from one of their books. ;-)
TedNugent wrote: This is my guess. Green Tide was deleted since relic options were expanded to include access to Orkimedes Kustom Gubbins and Relics of Gork and Mork.
This means that you could have combined Big Bosspole and DLS in the same mass unit of ork boyz, which would mean 10 combined units of orks that each have WS 5 and fearless in the same unit. It's just too obvious of a thing to do.
It's not this exact case, but one like it, in which there are two sets of conflicting rules in the same game edition. Pick what you want. This makes sense, as people who bought the first publication might not have the opportunity to get the revised version, due to whatever reasons. What would make the most sense from a tournament's perspective is if you're going to use something from a specific source, everything you use has to be from that source, ie. no mixing Green Tide with anything that comes from W!G v.2.
Considering the shenanigans that a lot of other armies can pull, like admech being able to draw from three seperate books simultaneously, this doesn't seem like a complicated solution.
that's super inconvenient. I used the exact set up as described and it worked perfect, except I called a Waaagh!! which was obviously illegal
I'm caught up now.
