I find it annoying it has two kinds of neophyte hybrids in there so they won't match. I also think a lot of the value in the kit comes from the overpriced characters most of whom you wont need a lot of (max 2 primus and 2 patriarch for example) so spamming that character set in every box is unhelpful.
I like the mix of Neophyte Hybrid designs as I find it works well with the infecting the general populous design of the cult. Once the Orlock weapon sprues are released by forgeworld I will probably go for a unit of those as Neophytes as well (I know the intention was to have those models compatible with the GSC upgrade sprue but not seen confirmation yet).
I've gone nuts with my neophyte variation - I've got escher, chaos cultists, mining neophytes, guard neophytes, regular cadians, orlocks, van saar and some tau pathfinders with cult heads. Really gives it a ramshackle feel
Araablane wrote: What is peoples opinion on Battleforce: Genestealer Cults Insurrection, i have already one painted but im thinking if i should get one before its sold out.
Definetly going to need a second Rockgrinder, Neophyte squad at some point and Primus wouldnt be bad.
it's pretty good for it's price, especially as you'll likely be running multiple primus and magus and you will be needing lots of acolytes and neophytes. The only thing in the list that makes duplicate purchases somewhat annoying is the extra patriarch and the truck (I personally prefer to ambush or use chimeras). I cannot see any reason to use more then 1 patriarch and rarely use any rockgrinders or trucks in any of my GSC lists.
C4790M wrote: I've gone nuts with my neophyte variation - I've got escher, chaos cultists, mining neophytes, guard neophytes, regular cadians, orlocks, van saar and some tau pathfinders with cult heads. Really gives it a ramshackle feel
Nice! You mind sharing some pics? I'm currently thinking of ideas on what to do for the Neophytes I'm looking to add to my army. Any suggestions welcome.
Advice needed. I'm shaping up for a competitive game with GSC and I'm going all out to win. Expecting to be facing some knights and I'm going to run a pure GSC force.
Organised into two battalions:
Backfield force:
Patriarch (mass hypnosis, mind control) familiar
4 squads of 20 neophytes with 2 grenade launchers (cluster around patriarch for LD)
4 squads of 10 neophytes with lascannon
Cult ambush force
Primus
Patriarch (mind control and +1S +1 attack power) familiar
Magus (mind control, mass hypnosis)
20 genestealers (go with Primus for near guaranteed charge)
4 squads of 20 neophytes with 2 grenade launcher
Plan is to focus down a knight with smites and the big stealer charge, then try and win on objectives (whatever they may be)
DoomMouse wrote: Advice needed. I'm shaping up for a competitive game with GSC and I'm going all out to win. Expecting to be facing some knights and I'm going to run a pure GSC force.
Organised into two battalions:
Backfield force:
Patriarch (mass hypnosis, mind control) familiar
4 squads of 20 neophytes with 2 grenade launchers (cluster around patriarch for LD)
4 squads of 10 neophytes with lascannon
Cult ambush force
Primus
Patriarch (mind control and +1S +1 attack power) familiar
Magus (mind control, mass hypnosis)
20 genestealers (go with Primus for near guaranteed charge)
4 squads of 20 neophytes with 2 grenade launcher
Plan is to focus down a knight with smites and the big stealer charge, then try and win on objectives (whatever they may be)
The biggest issue with GSC as they are now is they are 100% glass cannon. If your assault stalls at all you will be chopped to pieces. I have done the 20 stealer primus rush and unless you neuter you opponent with that first charge they get gunned down very quickly. It might be better to switch the Patriarch with an Iconward and maby another Magus. This way you can get the +1 str relic and get the 6+FNP to give your stealers a bit more resilience.
Tbh I'm fully expecting the stealer squads to die straight after they hit. They're just there to nuke the thing that can kill the most neophytes per turn. I'm aiming to get round the glass cannon effect with 200 neophytes (mostly fearless)
Didn't go for the iconward with the stealers as I figured they'd have might from beyond anyway and facing knights most damage would be multiple. To be fair I do have enough points to fit one in so it'd be an option!
Genestealers won’t do much to a knight. Luckily for you we do have two of the easiest ways of murdering titans: aberrants or rock saw acolytes. Take a big squad of either, mass hypnosis the target and charge in using meticulous uprising, buff with might from beyond and shred
I'm looking to buy them, but nothing mechanical because reasons. Do you think that's worth it? Or just keep nids?
Secondly, as for price, one person is offering like 10 abberants, 10 meta, 30 acolytes, 60 neophytes, 2 Primus and 20 purestrain for $300 -- is that a good price/good start?
I have a broodlord and 4 Magus. I'm more looking to supplement my nids, not replace.
Arkengate wrote: I'm looking to buy them, but nothing mechanical because reasons. Do you think that's worth it? Or just keep nids?
Secondly, as for price, one person is offering like 10 abberants, 10 meta, 30 acolytes, 60 neophytes, 2 Primus and 20 purestrain for $300 -- is that a good price/good start?
I have a broodlord and 4 Magus. I'm more looking to supplement my nids, not replace.
I think that's a good price if it's all good condition.
Does Salamander command vehicle work with Shadowsword and can Tank commander give orders to a Leman Russ?
"During the Shooting phase, a single friendly <REGIMENT> VEHICLE within 6" may add 1 to all hit rolls until the end of the phase. A single model cannot benefit from multiple SALAMANDER COMMAND VEHICLE auspex surveyors."
C4790M wrote: Genestealers won’t do much to a knight. Luckily for you we do have two of the easiest ways of murdering titans: aberrants or rock saw acolytes. Take a big squad of either, mass hypnosis the target and charge in using meticulous uprising, buff with might from beyond and shred
What buffs they get? 20 stealers cause about 9 wounds. Same point aberants 6,5...Rock saw's don't seem that much better. Can you have all members in squad with them?
Killing knights might be trouble but if he's mostly knights he will struggle kill cult. 8x20 neophytes? Knights will struggle to kill them all.
Araablane wrote:Does Salamander command vehicle work with Shadowsword and can Tank commander give orders to a Leman Russ?
"During the Shooting phase, a single friendly <REGIMENT> VEHICLE within 6" may add 1 to all hit rolls until the end of the phase. A single model cannot benefit from multiple SALAMANDER COMMAND VEHICLE auspex surveyors."
In my head the new regiment is "Brood Brothers".
It should. The Brood Brother's detachment is still an Astra Miltarum one so any abilities still apply. Just can't use regiment specific benefits like Cadian rerolls or so forth.
tneva82 wrote:
What buffs they get? 20 stealers cause about 9 wounds. Same point aberants 6,5...Rock saw's don't seem that much better. Can you have all members in squad with them?
I think you forgot to take into account the multi-damage aspects of Aberrant Power Hammers or Acolyte Rock Saws.
8x Aberrants with Hammers:
- No Buffs: 13.3 wounds
- Might from Beyond: 19.95
- Primus: 17.56
- Both: 26.34
20x Acolytes with 8x Rock Saws:
- No Buffs: 14.49 wounds
- Might from Beyond: 31.51
- Primus: 18.45 wounds
- Both: 38.68
While the Aberrants numbers don't look terribly impressive, it is worth noting that they are the least expensive of the three options and the most efficient points-per-wound inflicted before buffs (about 20 points per wound vs about 23 for Acolytes and 35 for Genestealers) or with just a to-hit buff (15 points per wound vs about 18 for Acolytes and 27 for Genestealers). Acolytes run away with things if they can get both Might from Beyond on them however, since at that point they combine the volume of attacks of a 'stealer squad and similar wounding capabilities of the Hammers.
I think you forgot to take into account the multi-damage aspects of Aberrant Power Hammers or Acolyte Rock Saws.
11 aberrants, 22 attacks. 14,6 hits(3+), 4.888 wounds(5+), 3,26 through armour(5+ save), doubled=6.5. What am I missing? Albeit I'm going on battlescribe.
11 aberrants, 22 attacks. 14,6 hits(3+), 4.888 wounds(5+), 3,26 through armour(5+ save), doubled=6.5. What am I missing? Albeit I'm going on battlescribe.
Well, for starters you can't take a squad of 11 Aberrants as they max out at 8-strong.
I think you're doing the calculations for the Power Pick models, which aren't really suited for taking on large targets. My calculations were done with Power Hammer equipped models.
Using the same number for consistency's sake:
11 Aberrants, 22 attacks, 11 hits (4+ due to unwieldy), 7.26 wounds (3+ due to S10), 6.0984 through armor (AP -3), 3 damage per wound = about 18 unsaved wounds (18.2952 rounding down).
tneva82 wrote: Well I was looking at about same points so aiming for price of 20 stealers. Squads of 6 and 5 for 11.
That makes sense. You should be able to get about 10 Power Hammer Aberrants for about 30 points more than 20 stealers. If you go the Aberrant route you will want to have Neophytes as troops and probably want at least one brood of Purestrain 'stealers for dedicated infantry mulching.
SHUPPET wrote: Which AM units do you guys best feel are worth allying in?
AM for all your infantry and vehicle shooting duties when playing with GSC melee ambush (mostly Genestealers with buffs alongside our HQs and 3x10 neophytes with shotguns)
SHUPPET wrote: Which AM units do you guys best feel are worth allying in?
The most common advice seems to be: Leman Russes/Tank Commanders. Heavy weapon teams with mortars. Basilisks or manticores. Infantry squads and commanders. Hellhounds. Superheavies (but remember max one AM detachment per GSC). Possibly ogryns and crusaders (with a priest and/or an astropath ofc) as they have more staying power than the melee units in our army.
If you use Forgeworld units, the Power Lifter Sentinel is very good.
SHUPPET wrote: Which AM units do you guys best feel are worth allying in?
The most common advice seems to be: Leman Russes/Tank Commanders. Heavy weapon teams with mortars. Basilisks or manticores. Infantry squads and commanders. Hellhounds. Superheavies (but remember max one AM detachment per GSC). Possibly ogryns and crusaders (with a priest and/or an astropath ofc) as they have more staying power than the melee units in our army.
If you use Forgeworld units, the Power Lifter Sentinel is very good.
The theme is shooting and resilience.
Thanks. Does that mean that if I grab a Shadowsword that's absolutely all the AM I can take for that list?
SHUPPET wrote: Which AM units do you guys best feel are worth allying in?
The most common advice seems to be: Leman Russes/Tank Commanders. Heavy weapon teams with mortars. Basilisks or manticores. Infantry squads and commanders. Hellhounds. Superheavies (but remember max one AM detachment per GSC). Possibly ogryns and crusaders (with a priest and/or an astropath ofc) as they have more staying power than the melee units in our army.
If you use Forgeworld units, the Power Lifter Sentinel is very good.
The theme is shooting and resilience.
Thanks. Does that mean that if I grab a Shadowsword that's absolutely all the AM I can take for that list?
No, but you’d have to take another GSC detachment before taking another AM detachment. They’re 1:1. So to take 2 Detachments of AM you’d need 2 Detachments of GSC.
SHUPPET wrote: Which AM units do you guys best feel are worth allying in?
The most common advice seems to be: Leman Russes/Tank Commanders. Heavy weapon teams with mortars. Basilisks or manticores. Infantry squads and commanders. Hellhounds. Superheavies (but remember max one AM detachment per GSC). Possibly ogryns and crusaders (with a priest and/or an astropath ofc) as they have more staying power than the melee units in our army.
If you use Forgeworld units, the Power Lifter Sentinel is very good.
The theme is shooting and resilience.
Thanks. Does that mean that if I grab a Shadowsword that's absolutely all the AM I can take for that list?
No, but you’d have to take another GSC detachment before taking another AM detachment. They’re 1:1. So to take 2 Detachments of AM you’d need 2 Detachments of GSC.
However you can take it in a supreme command detachment. So, a Company Commander and two Primaris Psykers with a Shadowsword. Use that elite slot to take a big bullgryn unit, and maybe some Dedicated Transport slots. Used to be better when the Taurox Prime was cheaper.
Small update - my 200+ strong horde got tabled! Played against one of each dominus knight, a warglaive, a punisher tank commander and 70 guardsmen with order support.
Managed to get 3 full turns of mind control on the big knights, but still wasn't enough to bring them down (though I got the valiant to smoke the punisher which was nice).
Patriarch went down to a couple of shieldbreaker sniper-missiles. Got the aberrants in on the valiant, but only did around 15 wounds (failed to cast the +1A power sadly). Guardsmen with order support really punish the neophyte hordes - they're just better troops! My lascannon neophytes did almost nothing all game - I think 5 wounds on the valiant was all they managed.
I think it would have been closer if I'd gotten first turn, being able to kill a bunch of guardsmen before they hit me with FRFSRF lasguns would have helped a lot.
Looking forward to when the codex comes out though. Will be interesting if the cults get good!
Arkengate wrote: If I was looking to get into GSC before codex, what units should I buy? Is there a good range of numbers I should get?
I would like to avoid vehicles, but not a requirement.
The short answer is two big units of genestealers, and a primus to ambush with each.
I made a 1000p example list for you. 70 infantry models, no vehicles. The neophytes are 11+ models in each unit, that means they are worth 10 PL each. So when they and the patriarch are deployed on table (total 37 PL) you can ambush all of your genestealers and primuses (total 36 PL)
DoomMouse wrote: Small update - my 200+ strong horde got tabled! Played against one of each dominus knight, a warglaive, a punisher tank commander and 70 guardsmen with order support.
Managed to get 3 full turns of mind control on the big knights, but still wasn't enough to bring them down (though I got the valiant to smoke the punisher which was nice).
Patriarch went down to a couple of shieldbreaker sniper-missiles. Got the aberrants in on the valiant, but only did around 15 wounds (failed to cast the +1A power sadly). Guardsmen with order support really punish the neophyte hordes - they're just better troops! My lascannon neophytes did almost nothing all game - I think 5 wounds on the valiant was all they managed.
I think it would have been closer if I'd gotten first turn, being able to kill a bunch of guardsmen before they hit me with FRFSRF lasguns would have helped a lot.
Looking forward to when the codex comes out though. Will be interesting if the cults get good!
If you keep the patriarch close to chaff, it takes 4 turns, 4 missiles and 8 cp to bring him down, a fair trade tbh, I think that’s just unlucky.
I think the familiars increased vastly in value, as it can make your casters missile immune.
Unfortunately the 100 neophytes I placed around him were dead turn 2! And his use as a fearless bubble kind of diminished due to this. He rolled a 6 for number of wounds and I bounced half onto neophytes, then he had no one to tank for him
Though I totally forgot I could have bounced the first onto his familiar. Guess I'll chalk that up to experience...
I have a rules question? Can Tyranid Psychic powers/buffs such as catalyst and onslaught still effect GSC units (as they have the Tyranid KW or has that been FAQ'd away?
Virtus wrote:Are Acolytes better used as anti-elite units or anti-vehicle? It seems like they can do both.
They can do both, though their choice of special weapons can cause them to lean towards one role or the other. A squad with a Heavy Rock Cutter or two will want to go after non-vehicle targets to take full advantage of the potential 1-hit kill effect while a squad with Heavy Rock Drills will probably instead want to go after larger multi-wound targets like vehicles over elite infantry to make the most of the sequential mortal wound generation. Rock Saws and Demolition Charges are fairly take all comers options, though the charges prefer targeting smaller units to maximize their damage potential while the Saws really want to pick on Heavy Infantry.
Timeshadow wrote:I have a rules question? Can Tyranid Psychic powers/buffs such as catalyst and onslaught still effect GSC units (as they have the Tyranid KW or has that been FAQ'd away?
No. The Tyranid FAQ changed all instances of "TYRANIDS" in ability targeting keywords to mean "TYRANIDS with the <Hive Fleet> keyword". There was a similar kerfuffle with the Chaos Daemons stratagems and powers interacting with the "Daemon" units found in the Chaos Space Marine books and similar errata.
Interesting to note that one of the new giant Aberrants with familiar buddy (Abomination?) is painted in the Pauper Prince color scheme (greenish chitin, red cloth, and white rubberized parts) while another one is done in the Cult of the Four Armed Emperor as well, suggesting it is a new unit proper rather than a unique model. Also a new Primus as well, but so far has only been seen in the Cult of the Four Armed Emperor scheme, so they might be a special character.
I have Imperial Guard army and a small force of Tyranids and I was thinking of ways to expand my Imperial forces when a thought hit me. Genestealer cult is a thing. A beautiful thing. A thing to connect my collection and offer more ways to play.
I know they're not the most competitive of beautiful things, but codex (or CA next year) might change that. I like the cult ambush side of things a lot and was thinking I should start a small force.
So the question is what are some solid units to go with that are likely going to see use even after the codex drops? Guess Primus, Magus and Purestrains? Keep in mind I do have Guard and nids to ally for covering weaknesses.
I have Imperial Guard army and a small force of Tyranids and I was thinking of ways to expand my Imperial forces when a thought hit me. Genestealer cult is a thing. A beautiful thing. A thing to connect my collection and offer more ways to play.
I know they're not the most competitive of beautiful things, but codex (or CA next year) might change that. I like the cult ambush side of things a lot and was thinking I should start a small force.
So the question is what are some solid units to go with that are likely going to see use even after the codex drops? Guess Primus, Magus and Purestrains? Keep in mind I do have Guard and nids to ally for covering weaknesses.
There's really no telling, but Purestrains are your safest bet as they have a grounded value to be compared to with the Nids Tyranids. On a similar tangent, even on the off chance that the GSC Stealers are bad, the Tyranid Stealers are still great AND can ally to AM through whatever is good in GSC, so you could still find a use for them.
I wouldn't bet too much on anything else. Primus and Magus are definitely the other 2 safest bets though, and Neophytes too, cheapest troops are always useful for detachments.
The Iconward is a safe bet. We know one relic, and it makes him into an absolute boss. The 3 characters and iconward will probably all still be useful, and Purestrains right now are amazing, I highly doubt the Codex raises their cost.
I have been looking at genestealer cults to start up in the near future, and looking at units, it seems like acolyte hybrids are absolutely amazing troops thanks to the the heavy weapons they can bring.
It seems like bringing a horde of them would not be a bad idea-obviously with some neophytes for a bit of dakka and objective holding and some purestrains.
Seems like you can kit out the acolytes to take down monsters and heavy inftantry pretty easily, as well as vehicles. Do you guys run yours any particular way?
Heafstaag wrote: I have been looking at genestealer cults to start up in the near future, and looking at units, it seems like acolyte hybrids are absolutely amazing troops thanks to the the heavy weapons they can bring.
It seems like bringing a horde of them would not be a bad idea-obviously with some neophytes for a bit of dakka and objective holding and some purestrains.
Seems like you can kit out the acolytes to take down monsters and heavy inftantry pretty easily, as well as vehicles. Do you guys run yours any particular way?
Yeah, Acolytes does a lot of damage for being troops. They take down big targets a bit better than genestealers does. Unfortunately they are quite expensive pointsvise and only T3/6+ means they die way to easy.
I use them sometimes anyway because I like the models a lot. 10 model groups with plenty of rocksaws or demolition charges. Unfortunately such a unit costs more than a patriarch that does pretty much the same job and has many other benefits as well :-/
Fueli wrote:
So the question is what are some solid units to go with that are likely going to see use even after the codex drops? Guess Primus, Magus and Purestrains? Keep in mind I do have Guard and nids to ally for covering weaknesses.
Broadly speaking, the only unit that doesn't really have a role to fill currently is the Metamorphs. Everything else has at least one function it can do for the army that makes it worth considering (if perhaps wishing they were a tad cheaper whilst doing so). If you are just starting out and are mainly interested in creating an allied ambushing detachment, I'd probably look towards Neophytes and the characters, with a smattering of Acolytes to provide armor cracking support. Aberrants are good as well for armor cracking, but we're still waiting on their kit (hopefully soon!) so you can leave them alone for the time being.
I'd also consider some cult vehicles as well. All of them are fairly solid by vehicle standards and mechanized GSC is quite viable (if not major tournament winning).
Heafstaag wrote:I have been looking at genestealer cults to start up in the near future, and looking at units, it seems like acolyte hybrids are absolutely amazing troops thanks to the the heavy weapons they can bring.
It seems like bringing a horde of them would not be a bad idea-obviously with some neophytes for a bit of dakka and objective holding and some purestrains.
As a general rule of thumb I'd do no more than ~10 Acolytes per ~20 Neophytes. Acolytes are very flexible in their target capabilities, but are too expensive to use as cannon fodder. I tend to use mine as mechanized troops, since they are perfectly happy in smaller units (unlike Genestealers) and can cover both anti-armor and anti-infantry roles.
Mellon wrote: Unfortunately they are quite expensive pointsvise and only T3/6+ means they die way to easy.
Minor nitpick, but they have a 5+ armor. Still fragile mind you, but it is just enough protection to make them somewhat annoying to remove while in cover.
Magus knows 2 powers, Smite and one chosen.
Do you have to choose it before the start of the game and declare it or can you choose the power depending on the situation (even cast different ones during the game).
Does Mass Hypnotised unit gets buffs from the opponents armies, like a sergeant giving rerolls of 1s.
Araablane wrote: Magus knows 2 powers, Smite and one chosen.
Do you have to choose it before the start of the game and declare it or can you choose the power depending on the situation (even cast different ones during the game).
Fueli wrote:
So the question is what are some solid units to go with that are likely going to see use even after the codex drops? Guess Primus, Magus and Purestrains? Keep in mind I do have Guard and nids to ally for covering weaknesses.
Broadly speaking, the only unit that doesn't really have a role to fill currently is the Metamorphs. Everything else has at least one function it can do for the army that makes it worth considering (if perhaps wishing they were a tad cheaper whilst doing so). If you are just starting out and are mainly interested in creating an allied ambushing detachment, I'd probably look towards Neophytes and the characters, with a smattering of Acolytes to provide armor cracking support. Aberrants are good as well for armor cracking, but we're still waiting on their kit (hopefully soon!) so you can leave them alone for the time being.
I'd also consider some cult vehicles as well. All of them are fairly solid by vehicle standards and mechanized GSC is quite viable (if not major tournament winning).
Heafstaag wrote:I have been looking at genestealer cults to start up in the near future, and looking at units, it seems like acolyte hybrids are absolutely amazing troops thanks to the the heavy weapons they can bring.
It seems like bringing a horde of them would not be a bad idea-obviously with some neophytes for a bit of dakka and objective holding and some purestrains.
As a general rule of thumb I'd do no more than ~10 Acolytes per ~20 Neophytes. Acolytes are very flexible in their target capabilities, but are too expensive to use as cannon fodder. I tend to use mine as mechanized troops, since they are perfectly happy in smaller units (unlike Genestealers) and can cover both anti-armor and anti-infantry roles.
Mellon wrote: Unfortunately they are quite expensive pointsvise and only T3/6+ means they die way to easy.
Minor nitpick, but they have a 5+ armor. Still fragile mind you, but it is just enough protection to make them somewhat annoying to remove while in cover.
Acolytes are a glass sledgehammer. You buff them with a primus, hypnosis, and/or might from beyond, then send them into what you want maimed. and by maimed I mean out meleeing Kharn escorted World eaters berserkers and wiping them despite losing half the unit to overwatch and interrupted melee. The issue with acolytes is that if the target has any opportunity to get a hit in you will all but guarentee lost models. I usually use 10-12 man squads and run 5-6 (leader is expendable) barebones as sacrificial wounds
Thanks for the responses! A glass sledgehammer, I like that. They seem like they should hit how I want nobz to hit in my head.
Forgive the ork reference, but in my head the non special weapon bearing acolytes seem to be just a rock saw or whathaveyou delivery device. Like boyz are klaw delivery devices (not so much anymore, but in the past).
Somewhat like boyz. Buffed they are pretty fierce. +1 Str and ATK. Cultist knife giving another attack for hordes, or RC for Marine types. Icon rerolls 1s and Primus gives +1 to hit rolls.
The biggest issue with acolytes is cost. for 20 purestrains it costs 300pts. For 20 Acolytes fully kitted with icon and 8 Rocksaws is 424pts. Both will need a Primus to deliver them and will need a magus or Paterarch to psybuff them and if an iconward is handy to get the FNP and extra Str. Genestealers though have more attacks and with just one Str buff will wound nearly everything in the game on a 5+ or better for 124 pts less. And I beleave Purestrains are costed nearly perfectly or maby 1 pt overcosted at most.
Timeshadow wrote: The biggest issue with acolytes is cost. for 20 purestrains it costs 300pts. For 20 Acolytes fully kitted with icon and 8 Rocksaws is 424pts.
Rock Saws were one of the items that had a cost drop in Chapter Approved, so that Acolyte unit with 8 Saws and Icon is actually 352 points.
I have a significant guard army but want to have a non Imperium army so I just ordered the battleforce. I just noticed this Deathwatch Kill team box set, that seems like it would really flesh out my growing cult, right? Is $145 a pretty standard price for that? It seems to be difficult to come by these days.
I have finished painting my first 2000 points of GSC! I've posted the imaged in my gallery. Check it out! Thanks for all the help provided by this forum in helping me create the list that I painted as the core of my force.
Colonel Cross wrote: I have a significant guard army but want to have a non Imperium army so I just ordered the battleforce. I just noticed this Deathwatch Kill team box set, that seems like it would really flesh out my growing cult, right? Is $145 a pretty standard price for that? It seems to be difficult to come by these days.
I don't remember what the original cost was, but a quick search through Ebay suggests that is a fairly good price (especially if you can make use of the Deathwatch half as well). Our shop still has a couple copies of Overkill left, so I'll check them as well.
dan2026 wrote:It's kinda weird GW haven't put out a Start Collecting box for Cults yet.
They haven't really had to between Deathwatch Overkill and the Battleforce box (and I suppose the AM start collecting box with a GSC upgrade sprue). With Overkill retiring they might repurpose the sprues for a start collecting box like how they put out Kill Team Cassius and the original AoS starter box as a separate releases.
I think part of the issue is that GSC has the bulk of their HQ options in a single box rather than as individual clampacks. Most of the current start collecting boxes have a fairly aggressive HQ in them (Tau being the main exception I can think of, but they can still build one Crisis suit as a Commander) while the only GSCHQ available separately is mostly oriented towards support rather than front-line fighting. The two new characters that were previewed (Pistol Primus and giant Aberrant with Familiar buddy) might offer additional options for a start collecting box and depending on how many Aberrants come to a box they might be a candidate for the "elite infantry/big thing" that most of the start collecting boxes have.
If they do make one that isn't repurposed Overkill sprues, I'd expect some combination of one of the new characters, Neophytes, Aberrants, and maybe a Goliath if they are feeling generous (not impossible, the Dark Eldar got a transport and Jetbikes in their current box).
Caspian89 wrote:I have finished painting my first 2000 points of GSC! I've posted the imaged in my gallery. Check it out! Thanks for all the help provided by this forum in helping me create the list that I painted as the core of my force.
Beautiful work Caspian! Love the pale flesh paired with purple chitin and all the weathering work. The Ork weapons to Rock Saw conversions turned out excellent as well.
dan2026 wrote: What's the best thing in the army for fighting heavy armour of the T8, 3+ variety?
Abberants with hammers?
Purestrain genestealers with either might from beyond or the Icon of the Cult Ascendant are our best melee answers without using allies.
jifel wrote:Large Acolyte squads with Rocksaws will also do great work, but big purestrain blobs are the most TAC answer we have.
He specifically asked for T8 3+ answers though, which is the opposite of wanting a TAC unit...
unless I'm missing something, compared to Aberrants, Purestrains put significantly less wounds on them (about 75% the damage output point for point), with no AP on half those wounds (as opposed to forcing Invul on every wound), and have a harder time all getting in range to swing on a single T8 unit, and also cost more for a full unit...
dan2026 wrote: What's the best thing in the army for fighting heavy armour of the T8, 3+ variety?
Abberants with hammers?
Purestrain genestealers with either might from beyond or the Icon of the Cult Ascendant are our best melee answers without using allies.
jifel wrote:Large Acolyte squads with Rocksaws will also do great work, but big purestrain blobs are the most TAC answer we have.
He specifically asked for T8 3+ answers though, which is the opposite of wanting a TAC unit...
unless I'm missing something, compared to Aberrants, Purestrains put significantly less wounds on them (about 75% the damage output point for point), with no AP on half those wounds (as opposed to forcing Invul on every wound), and have a harder time all getting in range to swing on a single T8 unit, and also cost more for a full unit...
This is my thinking also. Abberants just seem like they have a better chance to get the job done, especially with a Primus.
Genestealers talents seem like they would be better suited elsewhere.
And Acolytes just don't do enough damage for my liking. And you are paying way more points to take those 8 saws.
The reason I bring up TAC is that while yes, Abberants probably do better per point, Purestrains will still do well vs T8 3+ and are much, much better vs the field. Abberants aren't going to do much for you when you play against Orks, Daemons, etc.
jifel wrote: The reason I bring up TAC is that while yes, Abberants probably do better per point, Purestrains will still do well vs T8 3+ and are much, much better vs the field. Abberants aren't going to do much for you when you play against Orks, Daemons, etc.
The main issue I have with genestealers used like that is that you need a horde of them with at least 2 hqs to make them effective, which can add up to almost 25% of a list. In comparison a smaller abberant or acolyte squad properly kitted out does the damage to the big units for almost 100 points less, more if your using a patriarch for the stealers.
I personally prefer to use genestealers against hqs and their bubblewrap.
jifel wrote: The reason I bring up TAC is that while yes, Abberants probably do better per point, Purestrains will still do well vs T8 3+ and are much, much better vs the field. Abberants aren't going to do much for you when you play against Orks, Daemons, etc.
The main issue I have with genestealers used like that is that you need a horde of them with at least 2 hqs to make them effective, which can add up to almost 25% of a list. In comparison a smaller abberant or acolyte squad properly kitted out does the damage to the big units for almost 100 points less, more if your using a patriarch for the stealers.
I personally prefer to use genestealers against hqs and their bubblewrap.
How many do you recommend for a unit? I thought a full unit would be nice as it can potentially wreck a Knight
jifel wrote: The reason I bring up TAC is that while yes, Abberants probably do better per point, Purestrains will still do well vs T8 3+ and are much, much better vs the field. Abberants aren't going to do much for you when you play against Orks, Daemons, etc.
The main issue I have with genestealers used like that is that you need a horde of them with at least 2 hqs to make them effective, which can add up to almost 25% of a list. In comparison a smaller abberant or acolyte squad properly kitted out does the damage to the big units for almost 100 points less, more if your using a patriarch for the stealers.
I personally prefer to use genestealers against hqs and their bubblewrap.
How many do you recommend for a unit? I thought a full unit would be nice as it can potentially wreck a Knight
Either a full unit or close to it. Minimum 16-18 stealers. The issue I have with using them against things like knights and to a lesser extent tanks is that if they don't kill it, which is very possible it can usually just walk out then the stealer blob is vulnerable to being shot up by the rest of the army, and much like daemon troops the bonus for a 10+ squad is very powerful and you want to maintain it as long as possible and take out as many enemy weapons before you lose the bonus. Being able to charge and trap multiple squads also makes retreat shooting much less effective.
The main advantage I've found with Aberrants for armor cracking is that they don't require outside help to excel at the job and have good force concentration. A big blob of 'stealers can struggle to get everyone in range to swing, while a squad of Aberrants rarely has issue doing the same. The smaller unit size also makes it easier to hide and allows them to make use of transports more effectively than Genestealers and (to a lesser extent) Acolytes. Aberrants do struggle against mass infantry, but there is almost always something that they can go after. The aforementioned Daemons for instance have a plethora of multi-wound models that Aberrants are more than happy to smash, while an Ork Green Tide still has mutli-wound support characters and potentially some artillery batteries in the backfield that Aberrants can deal with.
Purestrains are good mind you, but I would treat them more as a supplemental/emergency source of armor cracking rather than dedicated armor hunters. They are far more efficient going after infantry and light vehicles than heavy targets and there is always a risk that the source of buffs will be eliminated early on.
I have slowly been building up my cult forces and have a had a few games with them. I was struggling a little vs heavy armour so i have been using 3x Goliath Rockgrinders with Aberants inside (3 with pick 2 with hammer) and a primus. General tactic has been to move and advance with grinders T1, then T2 get out with the aberrants and smash 2-3 trucks and 15 aberants into the enemy big units.
This has done pretty well, but I was wondering is there a better way. I was thinking taking 3x Goliath trucks and putting 10 acolytes with 4x rock saws in each truck. Have an Iconward with the +1 strength banner and a primus along and that seems very strong. Total of 24 str 10 ap-3 D2 attacks hitting on 2s. I could also move some points around (drop the mining lasers i have else where in the list) and take cult icons to get rerolls of 1 to hit. Add to this the 36 Str 5 rending claw attacks and 18 cultist knives.
This is verses the 12 hammerant attacks, 18 power pick attacks and average of 16-24 grinder attacks (usually lose 1 truck on the way in).
Not sure which one is better, what do my fellow neophytes think?
I have slowly been building up my cult forces and have a had a few games with them. I was struggling a little vs heavy armour so i have been using 3x Goliath Rockgrinders with Aberants inside (3 with pick 2 with hammer) and a primus. General tactic has been to move and advance with grinders T1, then T2 get out with the aberrants and smash 2-3 trucks and 15 aberants into the enemy big units.
This has done pretty well, but I was wondering is there a better way. I was thinking taking 3x Goliath trucks and putting 10 acolytes with 4x rock saws in each truck. Have an Iconward with the +1 strength banner and a primus along and that seems very strong. Total of 24 str 10 ap-3 D2 attacks hitting on 2s. I could also move some points around (drop the mining lasers i have else where in the list) and take cult icons to get rerolls of 1 to hit. Add to this the 36 Str 5 rending claw attacks and 18 cultist knives.
This is verses the 12 hammerant attacks, 18 power pick attacks and average of 16-24 grinder attacks (usually lose 1 truck on the way in).
Not sure which one is better, what do my fellow neophytes think?
How are the Primus and Icon guys keeping up with the trucks full of acolytes?
They can't fit in with them. Are you planning to ambush them?
Also it seems like a lot more models to do for what the Abberants can do cheaper and more reliably.
In summary I feel that just hitting something with a S10 hammer is often the answer.
I have slowly been building up my cult forces and have a had a few games with them. I was struggling a little vs heavy armour so i have been using 3x Goliath Rockgrinders with Aberants inside (3 with pick 2 with hammer) and a primus. General tactic has been to move and advance with grinders T1, then T2 get out with the aberrants and smash 2-3 trucks and 15 aberants into the enemy big units.
This has done pretty well, but I was wondering is there a better way. I was thinking taking 3x Goliath trucks and putting 10 acolytes with 4x rock saws in each truck. Have an Iconward with the +1 strength banner and a primus along and that seems very strong. Total of 24 str 10 ap-3 D2 attacks hitting on 2s. I could also move some points around (drop the mining lasers i have else where in the list) and take cult icons to get rerolls of 1 to hit. Add to this the 36 Str 5 rending claw attacks and 18 cultist knives.
This is verses the 12 hammerant attacks, 18 power pick attacks and average of 16-24 grinder attacks (usually lose 1 truck on the way in).
Not sure which one is better, what do my fellow neophytes think?
How are the Primus and Icon guys keeping up with the trucks full of acolytes?
They can't fit in with them. Are you planning to ambush them?
Also it seems like a lot more models to do for what the Abberants can do cheaper and more reliably.
In summary I feel that just hitting something with a S10 hammer is often the answer.
I guess I could take 2x trucks with acolytes and 1x grinder with 4 aberants and put the primus + iconward in the grinder as well.
Best of both worlds?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Killteam GSC points leaks
Acolytes maybe to 7-8 points in kill team, thats good news for the upcomg codex!
I guess I could take 2x trucks with acolytes and 1x grinder with 4 aberants and put the primus + iconward in the grinder as well.
Best of both worlds?
Have you considered chimeras instead of trucks? Then you can easier fit the supporting characters with the acolytes and pack more aberrants in the rockgrinder. I find that the open topped truck can be useful if you have lots of shooting, but I generally prefer the chimera for transport.
FatBoyNoSlim wrote: This has done pretty well, but I was wondering is there a better way. I was thinking taking 3x Goliath trucks and putting 10 acolytes with 4x rock saws in each truck.
With Goliath Trucks specifically I'd suggest using the Demolition Charges instead of Saws, to take advantage of the Open Topped rule and Demolition Cache if equipped. The ability to throw explosives from the back of a Goliath after it moves both increases the threat range considerably and is safer for the squad since they can get their strike in and remain safely bunkered. For melee squad delivery I'd suggest looking towards a Chimera instead, since it has significantly more anti-infantry firepower to clear a path through screening units and is slightly tougher against small arms fire than the Goliath Truck (Goliath in turn is slightly more durable against anti-tank fire due to Rugged Construction).
Maybe you could try 2x2, with Aberrants in the Rockgrinders and Acolytes in Goliaths (with Demolition Charges) or Chimeras (with melee weapons). Rockgrinders really like having other vehicles around for threat saturation and as you said can be used to finish off damaged targets with their own melee attack.
I guess I could take 2x trucks with acolytes and 1x grinder with 4 aberants and put the primus + iconward in the grinder as well.
Best of both worlds?
Have you considered chimeras instead of trucks? Then you can easier fit the supporting characters with the acolytes and pack more aberrants in the rockgrinder. I find that the open topped truck can be useful if you have lots of shooting, but I generally prefer the chimera for transport.
I do like chimeras but I wan to try and run my GSC army with only GSC models. Also I just finished painting 6 Chimeras for my Steel Legion so I dont really want to paint up any more!
Strat_N8 wrote:
FatBoyNoSlim wrote: This has done pretty well, but I was wondering is there a better way. I was thinking taking 3x Goliath trucks and putting 10 acolytes with 4x rock saws in each truck.
With Goliath Trucks specifically I'd suggest using the Demolition Charges instead of Saws, to take advantage of the Open Topped rule and Demolition Cache if equipped. The ability to throw explosives from the back of a Goliath after it moves both increases the threat range considerably and is safer for the squad since they can get their strike in and remain safely bunkered. For melee squad delivery I'd suggest looking towards a Chimera instead, since it has significantly more anti-infantry firepower to clear a path through screening units and is slightly tougher against small arms fire than the Goliath Truck (Goliath in turn is slightly more durable against anti-tank fire due to Rugged Construction).
Maybe you could try 2x2, with Aberrants in the Rockgrinders and Acolytes in Goliaths (with Demolition Charges) or Chimeras (with melee weapons). Rockgrinders really like having other vehicles around for threat saturation and as you said can be used to finish off damaged targets with their own melee attack.
I think I will try mixing both Aberrants and Acolytes, I am hesitant to use demo charges because the acolytes only hit on 4+ in shooting. Feel like hitting 3s (or 2s with a primus) in close combat is much better.
I do like chimeras but I wan to try and run my GSC army with only GSC models. Also I just finished painting 6 Chimeras for my Steel Legion so I dont really want to paint up any more!
I'm mostly the same (only have 1 Chimera but 6 Goliath Trucks and 3 Rockgrinders), so no worries. The Chimera suggestion is mostly on the basis of what the transports want to do, since the Chimera has mostly short-range firepower with an anti-infantry slant while the Goliath has longer-ranged guns and a more generalist load-out.
I am hesitant to use demo charges because the acolytes only hit on 4+ in shooting. Feel like hitting 3s (or 2s with a primus) in close combat is much better.
That's fair. My experience has been the number of shots that the Demolition Charges get while en-mass tends to compensate for the Acolyte's iffy aiming ability. Admittedly, they are better used for small disposable squads that you don't expect to survive long, since it allows them to front-load their damage in one barrage instead of requiring multiple turns of combat.
So I like to use purestrains and aberrants I use 2 primus though. 1st turn I ambush with whichever is more needed with primus. Gives me options and I can always ambush the other in naturally with a reroll. I like the iconward with the purestrains also ambushed for the extra str(wounding everything on5+ makes a big difference). 2nd turn I use 2nd primus with the unused unit and the strat.
I'm a Nids player, but I'm going to take a GSC detachment of
Patriach
Primus
Primus
20x Neophytes
20x Neophytes
20x Neophytes
Strat + CP re-roll on the Patriarch. Cheap units, ideally get 2 squads of fearless Neophytes tying up backfield units turn 1, coupled with 60-80 Lasgun shots. Will be pairing with a Swarmlord boosted squad of 30 Gargoyles, for that potentially 48" flying move + charge to fully tie up the ideal target. Hopefully other than that I can just go full aggression into Dakkafexes and Stealers. What do you guys think? Also, what power on the Broodlord? I was thinking Hypnosis, but then I realized Might could be REALLY fun, to really squeeze the most out of the cultists with a single Primus nearby that's over 40x S4 attacks hitting on 3+ for no real cost other that a single power.
I'd get at least one familiar so you can cast 2 on the turn you drop. The GSC powers are all great. Now knights are becoming do popular, hijacking their guns for the cost of one power is pretty funny
DoomMouse wrote: I'd get at least one familiar so you can cast 2 on the turn you drop. The GSC powers are all great. Now knights are becoming do popular, hijacking their guns for the cost of one power is pretty funny
I'm not super familiar with GSC yet - but I thought the familiar didn't give me a second power, only let me CAST a second power? i.e. let's me cast selected power + Smite in 1 turn.
The BRAIN CONTROL power is pretty tempting as well. Wish we could still select on a per-game basis.
Fun fact, you can select on pre-game basis in most formats. ITC, Nova, Adepticon and I believe ETC all allow you to select pre game. What format are you playing where this isn't the case?
jifel wrote: Fun fact, you can select on pre-game basis in most formats. ITC, Nova, Adepticon and I believe ETC all allow you to select pre game. What format are you playing where this isn't the case?
I genuinely thought it was a rule in 8th. I recall reading about it when I was first learning the edition, and nobody ever speaks about it. If this is the case I'll definitely be selecting the power on a per-game basis.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I realised today that taking a Primus to re-roll a unit of Neophytes is dumb, when for a similar price I could just take an entire new unit of Neophytes for a second roll entirely and more bodies in the list.
Just gonna take 2 Patriarch (with familiar) for maximum chance of one landing forward, and then about 80 Neophytes to fill out a battalion.
Yeah, it's common that you're required to type your powers to your list, but you can choose to change them before game. Of you forget to change/choose, you use the ones typed in your list.
SHUPPET wrote: I realised today that taking a Primus to re-roll a unit of Neophytes is dumb, when for a similar price I could just take an entire new unit of Neophytes for a second roll entirely and more bodies in the list.
True, ambush modification isn't as necessary for Neophytes given the threat range afforded them by their guns. It might be worthwhile for delivering a big shotgun squad to clog up the board followed by Return to Shadows to go back into reserve to deliver something else, but for the most part the Primus is best used with melee units who want the ambush control or weapon skill bump (Rockgrinders, Acolytes with Rock Cutters, Aberrants with Hammers)
Just gonna take 2 Patriarch (with familiar) for maximum chance of one landing forward, and then about 80 Neophytes to fill out a battalion.
Might also want to consider a pair of Magi to go with a Patriarch. They are the cheapest way to access Brood Mind powers and their aura ability is situationally useful depending on how prevalent offense psychic powers are your meta.
Also keep in mind that the Familiar's psychic assist ability at this point only grants an extra use of Smite, as none of the GSC psykers currently know more than one Brood Mind power (so they will either use the Brood Mind power and then Smite or vice versa). Regardless, they are very nice to have against high powered shots targeting their master.
SHUPPET wrote: I realised today that taking a Primus to re-roll a unit of Neophytes is dumb, when for a similar price I could just take an entire new unit of Neophytes for a second roll entirely and more bodies in the list.
True, ambush modification isn't as necessary for Neophytes given the threat range afforded them by their guns. It might be worthwhile for delivering a big shotgun squad to clog up the board followed by Return to Shadows to go back into reserve to deliver something else, but for the most part the Primus is best used with melee units who want the ambush control or weapon skill bump (Rockgrinders, Acolytes with Rock Cutters, Aberrants with Hammers)
Just gonna take 2 Patriarch (with familiar) for maximum chance of one landing forward, and then about 80 Neophytes to fill out a battalion.
Might also want to consider a pair of Magi to go with a Patriarch. They are the cheapest way to access Brood Mind powers and their aura ability is situationally useful depending on how prevalent offense psychic powers are your meta.
Also keep in mind that the Familiar's psychic assist ability at this point only grants an extra use of Smite, as none of the GSC psykers currently know more than one Brood Mind power (so they will either use the Brood Mind power and then Smite or vice versa). Regardless, they are very nice to have against high powered shots targeting their master.
Thanks for the reply. I considered it, but 2x Patriarch gives me my choice of the optimal 2 powers for that MU anyway and as you said, 2 smites. I was considering dropping 1 for a Magus to save some points however, though 2 patriarch may let me split up neophytes and surround sound some stuff and is a decent upgrade for 80 pts I think. I'll definitely consider tweaking that around though.
Anybody have any decent assumptions or wishes for the codex?
I recently acquired Overkill and the Battleforce as well as the Kill Team boxed set. I'm currently finishing up painting my guard army but will be switching to the cult soon. Was just curious about any future proof way to build these guys.
Colonel Cross wrote: Anybody have any decent assumptions or wishes for the codex?
I recently acquired Overkill and the Battleforce as well as the Kill Team boxed set. I'm currently finishing up painting my guard army but will be switching to the cult soon. Was just curious about any future proof way to build these guys.
main hope for me is cheaper acolytes (around 8-9 points), cheaper or better goliaths (ws4+ heavy weapons hurts), and a complete overhaul of metamorphs
Yeah I am looking through the index and I'm not sure why I'd take metamorphs over acolytes.
I envision my cult force to be about 1k of just HQs, Abberants, and Acolytes popping up while their guard allies hold down the fort. So I'm not too interested in the rockgrinder or Goliath. Especially when that kit is so expensive!
I recently acquired Overkill and the Battleforce as well as the Kill Team boxed set. I'm currently finishing up painting my guard army but will be switching to the cult soon. Was just curious about any future proof way to build these guys.
We can assume most of the Chapter Approved points adjustments should carry over to the codex, so Seismic Weapons, Aberrants, Rock Saws, and 'stealers should be fairly future proofed. I think most units should transfer over well. The only thing I'd hold off on assembling are special weapon Acolytes (in case the other weapons get a cost drop like Saws - might want to mix a few in) and Metamorphs (might see an overhaul or at least a cost drop and some new synergies from stratagems or Cult Gambits).
Colonel Cross wrote: Yeah I am looking through the index and I'm not sure why I'd take metamorphs over acolytes.
Currently there isn't really a good reason with their current price point. In the 7th edition codex the Metamorphs were the mass attacks specialist squad while Acolytes were the special weapons squad and Genestealers were the fast counter-assault squad. In Kill Team they received a hefty cost reduction alongside Acolytes, so if the values transfer over (which they may, most of the other points per model values line up with codex costs) they might be able to return to their mass attack specialization and be able to compete with Genestealers as a cheaper alternative for horde killing while 'stealers focus on taking out other melee specialists.
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Hey all, was hoping for some feedback on this list. Thinking I'd do a pretty standard approach of cracking their backline with basilisks best I can, then swarm from beneath with the purestrains, and more strategically from above with the tempestus.
On that note I've read mixed items about tempestus. My understanding is we can use the unit, but the tempestus keyword is replaced with brood brothers. Is that correct?
weaver9 wrote: .
Hey all, was hoping for some feedback on this list. Thinking I'd do a pretty standard approach of cracking their backline with basilisks best I can, then swarm from beneath with the purestrains, and more strategically from above with the tempestus.
If you can find points for it, I'd suggest adding another Grenade Launcher to each squad as they work much better in pairs (2D6 shots is more reliable than 1D6). If you were willing to drop a 'stealer from each brood you could also give each squad a Seismic Cannon as well for additional shots with the same strength values as the Grenade Launcher.
weaver9 wrote: .
On that note I've read mixed items about tempestus. My understanding is we can use the unit, but the tempestus keyword is replaced with brood brothers. Is that correct?
I'd probably avoid any Militarum Tempestus units as their ability to be included in a Brood Brothers detachment is a bit ambiguous. The FAQ/Errata says a unit with a <Regiment> keyword must change it to Brood Brothers, but Scions have no <Regiment> keyword to change in favor of a fixed Militarum Tempestus regimental keyword. The aforementioned ambiguity comes from the rules regarding detachments within the Astra Militarum codex itself, as it has a special exemption for including Scions in a <Regiment> detachment without affecting the detachment's regimental trait (so a Cadian detachment with some Scions is a Cadian detachment rather than a mixed Cadian/Militarum Tempestus detachment).
Excellent! I'll add an entry for the Abominant in the main post and add information as we receive it.
Our shop is generally pretty good at getting these releases and I know a few Marine players that will be happy to split a box (or two). Looks like not a bad start for the army either, with enough elites to make a Vanguard detachment built per the box.
Fueli wrote:I like them. Don't know if there's any kind of utility to be had with pure beatstick hq, but we'll see. At least the model is cool.
If it has a low enough wound threshold to "hide" behind other models it could have a lot of utility, especially if it is swinging at S10+ (dare I dream S14?) with that Sledge Hammer.
GSC-wise you get 8 Genestealers, 5 Acolytes, Iconward, 5 Abberants and the new Abominant. Between and that and the 2017 Battleforce box you get pretty much everything you need.
Fueli wrote:I like them. Don't know if there's any kind of utility to be had with pure beatstick hq, but we'll see. At least the model is cool.
If it has a low enough wound threshold to "hide" behind other models it could have a lot of utility, especially if it is swinging at S10+ (dare I dream S14?) with that Sledge Hammer.
Hey lads, GSC noob here. Is a GSC list heavy on the 5 point guardsmen type guys, and are Goliath rockgrinders good? I have an idea for a cool army theme but am not sure if it’s anywhere near viable.
I know its probably useless to ask now, but how do you guys like shotgun neophyte squads? I plan on picking up a couple of boxes of neophyte soon(ish), and after looking at pictures of the sprues and built models I really want a big ol squad filled with shotguns. Since GSC don't get orders like guard, I figured it would be a fun, and not a too terribly bad choice.
ph34r wrote:Hey lads, GSC noob here. Is a GSC list heavy on the 5 point guardsmen type guys
Somewhat. Neophytes are the cheaper of the two troop options and are mostly self contained while Acolytes really want a Primus or transport of some sort to reliably deliver them. Neophytes also provide the bulk of anti-infantry firepower to remove screens for assault units, so are vital for clearing the way for the more damaging assault squads.
ph34r wrote:are Goliath rockgrinders good? I have an idea for a cool army theme but am not sure if it’s anywhere near viable.
Rockgrinders are good in the right list but struggle in others. They work best with other vehicle hulls to provide target saturation and prefer more aggressive lists than gunlines since most of their weaponry is very short ranged and running up the field alone paints a large target on them. They also really want a Primus to "fix" their WS: 5+, which again directs them towards a more aggressive style of list with said Primus either delivering an assault squad via ambush or else riding in one of the Rockgrinders if running pure mechanized.
Heafstaag wrote:
I know its probably useless to ask now, but how do you guys like shotgun neophyte squads? I plan on picking up a couple of boxes of neophyte soon(ish), and after looking at pictures of the sprues and built models I really want a big ol squad filled with shotguns. Since GSC don't get orders like guard, I figured it would be a fun, and not a too terribly bad choice.
I personally like them. Shotgun squads are good for (relatively) cheap forward screens since they do not require any further upgrades to do their job and hit harder up close than autogun squads. The ability to advance and shoot is also situationally useful, such as making a last minute objective grab that has enemy models on it. An autogun squad advancing to the target would at best be able to contest, while a shotgun squad could potentially end up claiming it depending on how their shots go.
- Power Sledge Hammer is Sx2 (S12 according to the article, so the Abominant is base S6) AP -3 and D6 damage with the Neutron Laser's special ability (damage rolls of 1-2 are bumped to 3, so minimum of 3 damage per blow and a max of 6). No to-hit penalty either, which could be interesting depending on what the base WS for the Abominant is.
- Aura ability causes friendly Aberrants within a close distance of the Abominant to get 2 hits for every unmodified hit roll of 6 made, meaning the ability works with Power Hammers despite their penalty to hit and does not benefit from the Primus' to-hit modifier.
- Familiar buddy (Mindwyrm Familiar) apparently messes with psykers, though the exact mechanisms were not previewed.
In addition, Power Picks gained a new ability where a model can make additional attacks with their Rending Claws for each attack made with the Power Pick. This is a huge fix for Pick-equipped Aberrants as it means they get effectively 4 attacks each which brings them back to what they had in 7th edition (when charging). Mixed squads should be more attractive now, since the Picks now offer the volume of attacks needed to fight through infantry squads while Hammers remain one of the best non-buffed armor crackers in-faction. Might from Beyond should now be properly terrifying on Aberrants as well, since each Power Pick model will be getting 6 attacks each at S6.
It would seem like they might have actually taken their time to adjust GSC and not just simply slapped on some cookie cutter rules and points adjustments. We shall see.
Is it just me, or does a D6 damage str 12 thunder hammer with no negative to hit modifier seem CRAZY good?
I mean, maybe if its WS5+ or you only ever get a single attack, or something. But hell, that's damn close to a defiler or gorknaut weapon profile on a character.
Kap'n Krump wrote: Is it just me, or does a D6 damage str 12 thunder hammer with no negative to hit modifier seem CRAZY good?
I mean, maybe if its WS5+ or you only ever get a single attack, or something. But hell, that's damn close to a defiler or gorknaut weapon profile on a character.
Gooooood. Now keep him near the Primus, Im betting the character is Ws 3 like the Abberants. But, as awesome as he sounds, remember that he cant fly and probably doenst have an invulnerable save. That will keep him balanced even if he hits harder than Captain smash.
I'm not comparing him to captain smash - more like a warboss,who is the same str, also without fly or an invlun save, but a measly D3 damage (at a -1 to hit) and instead of D6 min 3.
And yes, no ork codex yet, I'm aware, I get it, but still, a D6 weapon on a character is, I think, unheard of? Much less with no hit modifier.
The ability triggers on a natural 6 rather than a result of 6, so negative modifiers don't stop it from triggering and positive modifiers don't lower the threshold to trigger it.
Compare to Tesla weapons for example. On a 6+ they add extra hits, so a -1 to hit prevents the ability from triggering at all (6 - 1 = 5) and +1 to hit abilities like My Will Be Done make it trigger on a 5+ (5 + 1 = 6). The Chosen One ability only wants a dice with a 6 side showing and doesn't care about modifiers to the roll.
The ability triggers on a natural 6 rather than a result of 6, so negative modifiers don't stop it from triggering and positive modifiers don't lower the threshold to trigger it.
Compare to Tesla weapons for example. On a 6+ they add extra hits, so a -1 to hit prevents the ability from triggering at all (6 - 1 = 5) and +1 to hit abilities like My Will Be Done make it trigger on a 5+ (5 + 1 = 6). The Chosen One ability only wants a dice with a 6 side showing and doesn't care about modifiers to the roll.
but the weapon doesn't have a to-hit penalty anymore... read it again
The ability triggers on a natural 6 rather than a result of 6, so negative modifiers don't stop it from triggering and positive modifiers don't lower the threshold to trigger it.
Compare to Tesla weapons for example. On a 6+ they add extra hits, so a -1 to hit prevents the ability from triggering at all (6 - 1 = 5) and +1 to hit abilities like My Will Be Done make it trigger on a 5+ (5 + 1 = 6). The Chosen One ability only wants a dice with a 6 side showing and doesn't care about modifiers to the roll.
but the weapon doesn't have a to-hit penalty anymore... read it again
He's talking about the Aberrants' Hammers. Not the Abomination's Hammer.
jifel wrote: But, as awesome as he sounds, remember that he cant fly and probably doenst have an invulnerable save. That will keep him balanced even if he hits harder than Captain smash.
While an invul is doubtful, he is a GSC character and thus presumably eligible for Unquestioning Loyalty. Plus, being an Aberrant he might retain the Bestial Vigor ability which could make him obnoxious to kill. Take 6 damage from a lucky Lascannon shot? Bestial Vigor reduces that to 5 and some hapless Neophytes take ~2 more on his behalf. Add a source of FNP (Iconward or Warlord Trait - if possible) and it gets even better.
but the weapon doesn't have a to-hit penalty anymore... read it again
Power Picks (previewed) and the Abominant's new Power Sledge Hammer do not have any modifiers, but standard Power Hammers currently do. The ability's wording basically insures that even with the negative modifier it will still trigger and prevents the Primus from making hits explode on a 5+.
jifel wrote: But, as awesome as he sounds, remember that he cant fly and probably doenst have an invulnerable save. That will keep him balanced even if he hits harder than Captain smash.
While an invul is doubtful, he is a GSC character and thus presumably eligible for Unquestioning Loyalty. Plus, being an Aberrant he might retain the Bestial Vigor ability which could make him obnoxious to kill. Take 6 damage from a lucky Lascannon shot? Bestial Vigor reduces that to 5 and some hapless Neophytes take ~2 more on his behalf. Add a source of FNP (Iconward or Warlord Trait - if possible) and it gets even better.
Wow good point and very likely, he might be a real challenge to move off the field.
but the weapon doesn't have a to-hit penalty anymore... read it again
Power Picks (previewed) and the Abominant's new Power Sledge Hammer do not have any modifiers, but standard Power Hammers currently do. The ability's wording basically insures that even with the negative modifier it will still trigger and prevents the Primus from making hits explode on a 5+.
ah I'm mixing up names then? got it, I'm having trouble keeping up with who's got which weapon here, I think I gotta wait till the dex, thanks for the explanation
Kap'n Krump wrote: I'm not comparing him to captain smash - more like a warboss,who is the same str, also without fly or an invlun save, but a measly D3 damage (at a -1 to hit) and instead of D6 min 3.
And yes, no ork codex yet, I'm aware, I get it, but still, a D6 weapon on a character is, I think, unheard of? Much less with no hit modifier.
Ah well, just surprising is all.
He's GSC's very own twisted idea of a dunecrawler. Bring 3.
jifel wrote: The fact that his weapon averages more damage than captain smash will be countered by his lack of fly, and probably a lack of invulnerable save.
You're probably right. Though I'm looking forward to the strategems, relics, traits, and powers that prove you wrong
jifel wrote: The fact that his weapon averages more damage than captain smash will be countered by his lack of fly, and probably a lack of invulnerable save.
It is worth keeping in mind that as long as the Abominant is a character he will get the benefits of Unquestioning Loyalty (barring a rewrite of the rule) which is arguably better than an Invulnerable in some circumstances since it can be used against mortal wounds and similar effects that bypass saves so long as you have expendable fodder to sacrifice.
I think the biggest limiting factor is going to be points and opportunity cost. The Abominant sounds like it should be a great damage dealer piece, but the HQ slot is very competitive in the army and from what has been previewed thus far I can't see him being less expensive than the Patriarch.
jifel wrote: The fact that his weapon averages more damage than captain smash will be countered by his lack of fly, and probably a lack of invulnerable save.
You're probably right. Though I'm looking forward to the strategems, relics, traits, and powers that prove you wrong
Oh I will gladly eat crow if the Abberants/Abominant is so immune to pain that he gets an invuln, even a 5++! If wracks have a 4++ without wearing a gak, I think we should too
ph34r wrote: Are there any 'competitive' GSC lists these days?
They've done well at a few tournaments when mixed with AM and Nids but seeing as theyre still an index army i'd wait on the very soon to arrive codex before making a proper call
This includes City of Traps rules, which simulate the devious Genestealer Cults’ methods of fighting on home turf
What do you guys think this will be?
My best guess is probably environmental hazards. The Forgebane box had rules for ash waste storms as a backdrop for the missions included in the box. I think there were three different effects, but the main one I remember was all models not in/under/on top of a terrain feature or not embarked on a transport/fortification had to make an armor save and suffer a mortal wound if the save was failed. Given the Space Wolves part of the box has very strong anti-infantry firepower, the City of Traps is probably to act as an equalizer in the missions (probably an assortment of nasty things to hinder the Wolves/help the GSC like the Overkill "Gambit" cards).
Hey, some list building questions. I have the GSC half of the old Deathwatch Overkill box and a leman russ I recently got from a friend as well as some Guardsmen that I could use as Neophytes I think?
Is there any way to field the 2 Genestealers as a unit aside from the Auxiliary detachment? And can I include the Leman Russ without having to make it Brood Brothers?
Heavy Support -Cult Leman Russ ---Battle Cannon, Heavy Bolter, 2x Heavy Flamers
I figure I can put the Primus with the Abberants and the Acolytes with the other HQ's in ambush, then deploy the Neophytes and Russ on or near objectives
Heavy Support
-Cult Leman Russ
---Battle Cannon, Heavy Bolter, 2x Heavy Flamers
I figure I can put the Primus with the Abberants and the Acolytes with the other HQ's in ambush, then deploy the Neophytes and Russ on or near objectives
Still very new to this so I appreciate the advice
You are obviously very limited by the models in your collection, but it’s not a bad place to start. You are going to need more units on the board, however, as you can’t have more than half start the game in reserve. If I were you, I would probably start the Patriarch on the board within range o both neophyte units so he can make them fearless and use them as human shields vs. sniper shots, etc. Keep the patriarch well hidden and use him to counter charge enemy melee threats rather than as a forward offensive unit. Give him mind control or might from beyond and use him to support your other units.
Blob up the acolyte unit and put it with the magus, primus and aberrants in reserve. You don’t need to choose which unit the primus goes with until you bring him in, so read the board and make your choice based on the situation. Facing a screen of light troops? Send the primus with the acolytes to wipe them out before bringing in your heavy hitters. If your enemy has a lot of exposed vehicles or multi-wound infantry, send the primus with the aberrants. Remember that you can recycle your primus via the return to shadows stratagem if he manages to survive the initi assault, potentially allowing you to get double duty out of the primus.
Magus should pretty much always take Mass Hypnosis. The ability to shut down overwatch is very strong. The -1 to hit effect is pretty darn good too. The magus probably wants the familiars more than the Patriarch, since he will probably be operating close to the enemy and thus will get more use out of the ability to cast an extra psychic power (since he is more likely to be in Smite range). The familiars also give him a little extra close combat punch, which he can definitely use.
As for the two genestealers, you should probably acquire another set of them so you can field a proper unit of 10. Alternatively, you can proxy them as two extra familiars and have them hang out with your Patriarch until you get a few more. The new Tooth and Claw box coming out this box would be a good place to start filling out your army (especially if you can split it with someone who wants the marines) as it gives you a lot of the stuff you need at a significant discount.
Heavy Support
-Cult Leman Russ
---Battle Cannon, Heavy Bolter, 2x Heavy Flamers
I figure I can put the Primus with the Abberants and the Acolytes with the other HQ's in ambush, then deploy the Neophytes and Russ on or near objectives
Still very new to this so I appreciate the advice
You are obviously very limited by the models in your collection, but it’s not a bad place to start. You are going to need more units on the board, however, as you can’t have more than half start the game in reserve. If I were you, I would probably start the Patriarch on the board within range o both neophyte units so he can make them fearless and use them as human shields vs. sniper shots, etc. Keep the patriarch well hidden and use him to counter charge enemy melee threats rather than as a forward offensive unit. Give him mind control or might from beyond and use him to support your other units.
Blob up the acolyte unit and put it with the magus, primus and aberrants in reserve. You don’t need to choose which unit the primus goes with until you bring him in, so read the board and make your choice based on the situation. Facing a screen of light troops? Send the primus with the acolytes to wipe them out before bringing in your heavy hitters. If your enemy has a lot of exposed vehicles or multi-wound infantry, send the primus with the aberrants. Remember that you can recycle your primus via the return to shadows stratagem if he manages to survive the initi assault, potentially allowing you to get double duty out of the primus.
Magus should pretty much always take Mass Hypnosis. The ability to shut down overwatch is very strong. The -1 to hit effect is pretty darn good too. The magus probably wants the familiars more than the Patriarch, since he will probably be operating close to the enemy and thus will get more use out of the ability to cast an extra psychic power (since he is more likely to be in Smite range). The familiars also give him a little extra close combat punch, which he can definitely use.
As for the two genestealers, you should probably acquire another set of them so you can field a proper unit of 10. Alternatively, you can proxy them as two extra familiars and have them hang out with your Patriarch until you get a few more. The new Tooth and Claw box coming out this box would be a good place to start filling out your army (especially if you can split it with someone who wants the marines) as it gives you a lot of the stuff you need at a significant discount.
Thanks for the advice, I'm planning on getting Tooth and Claw to flesh it out some more. Taking your advice this is the revised list:
Spoiler:
+Battalion+
HQ -Patriarch
---Might From Beyond, Warlord: Focus of Adoration
-Magus
---2x Familiar, Mass Hypnosis
-Primus
Kharne the Befriender wrote: Thanks, playing a game versus my friends primaris Ultramarines. Theyre doing good so far
Cool. Let us know how it goes. What are you playing, 1000 points? A primaris army sounds like it would be a reasonable matchup for you at that points level. I play against various flavors of Eldar a lot, and they always wreck me.
The main change from the original version is the replacement of the MSU melee Acolyte squads with Aberrants and a general shift towards anti-infantry firepower. The Mining Lasers in the original version didn't get much use as most of the vehicle targets were pelted to death with autocannon fire before they could get in range, so the revised list swaps them for Seismic Cannons to save points and focus the Neophyte squads towards anti-infantry. I'm not entirely comfortable with the loss of 2 Demolition Charge Acolytes, but there are still points left to add Demolition Caches to make up for it.
I'm waiting to see how much the Abominant costs (and what slot it uses) before completely finalizing the idea. Depending on points I might drop something to make room or else use the remaining points to swap one of the HQs.
The main change from the original version is the replacement of the MSU melee Acolyte squads with Aberrants and a general shift towards anti-infantry firepower. The Mining Lasers in the original version didn't get much use as most of the vehicle targets were pelted to death with autocannon fire before they could get in range, so the revised list swaps them for Seismic Cannons to save points and focus the Neophyte squads towards anti-infantry. I'm not entirely comfortable with the loss of 2 Demolition Charge Acolytes, but there are still points left to add Demolition Caches to make up for it.
I'm waiting to see how much the Abominant costs (and what slot it uses) before completely finalizing the idea. Depending on points I might drop something to make room or else use the remaining points to swap one of the HQs.
(And yes, I do have that many Goliaths)
I’m curious about your list. What units go in which transport? I always struggle to decide which units should go where. I only have 2 goliaths and 1 rockgrinder, so obviously space is at more of a premium. I sometimes ally in some Nid heavies for target saturation, but a lot of the other stuff I run is very similar, such as the acolytes with demo charges and seismic cannons in the neophyte squads.
Automatically Appended Next Post: FYI, I agree with you that mining lasers aren’t worth it most of the time. They’re too expensive for only D3 damage, and the Heavy rule really kills their accuracy. With only 24” range, you are almost certain to have to move to get in range of a worthwhile target, and then you’re hitting on a 5+. The Seismic Cannon is also heavy, but it’s cheaper and at least makes up for its inaccuracy with volume of fire.
I'm curious how much mileage you are getting from the demo charges? I cant justify them over rock saws or are you using them exclusively for drive by bombings?
Asmodas wrote:
I’m curious about your list. What units go in which transport? I always struggle to decide which units should go where. I only have 2 goliaths and 1 rockgrinder, so obviously space is at more of a premium. I sometimes ally in some Nid heavies for target saturation, but a lot of the other stuff I run is very similar, such as the acolytes with demo charges and seismic cannons in the neophyte squads.
All the units that can shoot (Neophytes, Demolition Acolytes) ride in the Goliath Trucks while the melee-oriented models (Aberrants in the V2 list/MSU Rocksaw Acolytes in the original) and Characters go in the Rockgrinders. Units don't have to start aboard a transport though. One of the nice things about running mech is that you have a great deal of deployment flexibility and can compact your deployments down if you really need the +1 for first turn, or else delay putting models on the table by hiding squads in ambush in order to see where your opponent commits his forces.
I'd give Acolyte Demolition squads priority for Goliath Truck seats over Neophytes, due to their being much more range limited and more expensive per model.
Asmodas wrote:
FYI, I agree with you that mining lasers aren’t worth it most of the time. They’re too expensive for only D3 damage, and the Heavy rule really kills their accuracy. With only 24” range, you are almost certain to have to move to get in range of a worthwhile target, and then you’re hitting on a 5+. The Seismic Cannon is also heavy, but it’s cheaper and at least makes up for its inaccuracy with volume of fire.
I don't dislike the Mining Lasers per say, just within the context of the original list I had plenty of anti-armor firepower and didn't really benefit from them much since most of their preferred targets (multi-wound infantry, light vehicles) were getting mowed down by the massed autocannons while the demolition charge squads targeted the big things. They work better with ambushing squads that can set up into a good position on the first turn near the middle of the table and make a nuisance of themselves.
Sneggy wrote:I'm curious how much mileage you are getting from the demo charges? I cant justify them over rock saws or are you using them exclusively for drive by bombings?
Mostly drive-by bombings. I haven't had much success with them on foot or as ambushers, but paired with a Goliath they have been excellent for me. Demolition squads are generally aimed at large targets that will be problematic for melee-based armor crackers to deal with (like Blight Drones or Toxicrenes) and switch over to objective clearing duties after making their bombing run. Opponents thus far have had a tendency to put them near the bottom of their target priority once the charges have been spent, which gives them a bit of leeway to run interference for other squads as well.
Thanks for the response. Really hoping Mining Lasers either go up to D6 damage or have a price drop in the codex.
Just for a bit of perspective on my experiences with the army, I have been having a lot of trouble with flyers (in particular, Eldar flyers). What our poor BS and lack of units with Fly, hard to hit flyers can be very hard to deal with. In 7th, you could safely ignore them since they started off the table and most of them didn’t do much damage, so you could just kill the rest of the army and shrug off the damage they did for the most part. That doesn’t work very well any more. Multiple Hemlocks and Crimson Hunters will blow up all of your vehicles by turn 2, leaving our 5+ save guys super vulnerable to the rest of the army. Between hard to hit, the Heavy rule and lightning fast reflexes, it was rare that I could even take down a single plane over the course of a game.
After some experimentation, I tried bringing in a Nid spearhead to help out. This would typically include a Flyrant, a Tyrannofex with acid spray, an Exocrine and usually a Biovore or two to fill out the detachment. After that, I finally started winning games against multi flyer lists. The Acid Spray T Fex is definitely a star player in the list, and is often capable of wrecking a flyer in a single round of shooting if one enters his 18” radius of death. More often, he just becomes target priority number 1 and/or forces flyers to stay far away, giving me a lot of board control and keeping the rest of my forces alive a lot longer. The only problem with this approach is it costs like 700 points, and I really wanted to run more of a pure GSC force rather than a list that is almost half Nids. Has anyone else run into similar issues with flyers, and if so, come up with any alternative solutions?
taetrius67 wrote: Give up one cp and play only the Tyrannofex with acid spray :p
I might just do that, not a bad idea. Another option would be to just make a patrol with the T Fex and the Flyrant and then buy my genestealers as Nids instead of GSC to fill out the troops slot. The Flyrant is also excellent anti-air, and often does a lot of the killing if the T Fex gets dropped by anti-tank shooting on the first turn. I can make the detachment Kraken, too, to have a shot at that sweet first turn charge with the stealers.
Maybe I should just post my current list so you guys have a better idea what I'm actually working with.
Spoiler:
2000 points
GSC Battalion
HQ:
Primus
Primus
Troops:
Acolyte Hybrids x 9
- 2x Demo Charges
Acolyte Hybrids x 9
- 2x Rock Saw
Neophytes x 10
- 6x autogun (including unit leader)
- 2x grenade launcher
- 2x seismic cannon
Neophytes x 13
- 11x shotgun
- 1x grenade launcher
- 1x seismic cannon
- power maul and autopistol on unit leader
If you wan't more genestealer cult points take 5 genestealers and 15 so you have a patrol and you don't need the exocrine and biovore so you get more points for your cult.
Rules for Abominant and Aberrants have been leaked thanks to a BolS unboxing video (despite the lack of <Cult> Keyword and points costs) and I've to say that they are very very good
KurtAngle2 wrote: Rules for Abominant and Aberrants have been leaked thanks to a BolS unboxing video (despite the lack of <Cult> Keyword and points costs) and I've to say that they are very very good
For those interested:
Abominant:
S6 WS3 5W 5T 3A
Regenerates D3 Wounds every round--kill it or it can keep trucking.
Mindwyrm Familiar grants "mini-Shadow in the Warp"(6" I believe was mentioned)
Bestial Vigor: Damage dealt to him is reduced by 1 for each incoming attack(to a minimum of 1) AND he's got a 5+ Feel No Pain
KurtAngle2 wrote: Rules for Abominant and Aberrants have been leaked thanks to a BolS unboxing video (despite the lack of <Cult> Keyword and points costs) and I've to say that they are very very good
For those interested:
Abominant:
S6 WS3 5W 5T 3A
Regenerates D3 Wounds every round--kill it or it can keep trucking.
Mindwyrm Familiar grants "mini-Shadow in the Warp"(6" I believe was mentioned)
Bestial Vigor: Damage dealt to him is reduced by 1 for each incoming attack(to a minimum of 1) AND he's got a 5+ Feel No Pain
He's kinda scary I feel.
Mindwyrm has 12" range
Bestial Vigor is the same rule of Aberrants, so it has been upgraded to provide a 5+ FNP also
D3 wounds every CONTROLLING PLAYER turn, still good
Kanluwen wrote: The guys in the video kept talking over each other, sorry I flubbed a bit.
What do GSC players think? Exciting? Dull?
We haven't even seen I think 10% of our Codex content within such release, there are indeed exciting news (both the newly improved Aberrants and Abominant are, costs aside, good from a profile perspective) and "meh" feelings (why no points costs shown? Where is the <Cult> keyword!?)
Kanluwen wrote: The guys in the video kept talking over each other, sorry I flubbed a bit.
What do GSC players think? Exciting? Dull?
We haven't even seen I think 10% of our Codex content within such release, there are indeed exciting news (both the newly improved Aberrants and Abominant are, costs aside, good from a profile perspective) and "meh" feelings (why no points costs shown? Where is the <Cult> keyword!?)
It looks like you're being treated as similar to Death Guard, Thousand Sons, Grey Knights, Blood Angels, Tempestus Scions, and Dark Angels: you don't get a <Insert Here> instead you get "Genestealer Cults".
It kinda/sorta makes sense since the ending phase of the Cult's lifespan is them being devoured by the Hive Fleets right?
With regards to thoughts, I was more curious about this new stuff.
Very hard to see but for every X number of Abberant models you can take a Hypermorph. I think it's possibly a 3. Hypermorphs are armed with rending claws, Hypermorph Tail and either a P.Hammer or Heavy Improvised Weapon.
Heavy Improvised Weapon Melee Sx2 AP-1 D2 Make 2 hit rolls for each attack made with this weapon, instead of 1. When attacking with this weapon you must subtract 1 from the hit roll.
Hypermorph Tail Melee Suser AP-1 D1 Each time the bearer fights it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon.
Bestial Vigor When inflicting damage upon a model in this unit, reduce the damage of the attack by 1 to a minimum of 1. In addition, roll a d6 each time a model in this unit loses a wound, on a 5+ the model does not lose that wound.
So there ya go!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Abominant:
M6" WS3+ S6 T5 W5 A3 Ld8 Sv5+
Power Sledge Melee Sx2 AP-3 D6 Damage results of a 1 or 2 made with this weapon count as a 3 instead
Familiar Claw Melee S4 AP0 D1 After a model guided a Mindwyrm Familiar makes it's close combat attacks you can attack with the Mindwyrm Familiar. Make 2 additional attack, using this weapon profile
Cult Ambush
Chosen One: Each unmodified hit roll of 6 made in the Fight phase for friendly Abberant units within 6" of this model scores 2 hits instead of 1.
Start of each of your turn regen D3 wounds
Mindwyrm Familiar: Subtract 1 from Psychic test taken for Psykers that are within 12" of any ..... Abominants. Tryanid Psykers are not affected.
Bestial Vigor, same as Abberants.
Unquestioning Loyalty
Automatically Appended Next Post: Metamorphs
No changes that I could see. Metamorph Claws are still the same, Talons are still the same.
Not really. A single superheavy is kind of meh in this edition, especially if you can’t outflank it to protect it from the alpha. If you want to take multiple superheavies, at that point you may as well play straight guard as they’d benefit from doctrines
Does anyone think we might see our Codex in September? Given that GSC was featured in both Kill Team and "Tooth and Claw" and given how quick the Space Wolves codex came out alongside "Tooth and Claw" and given how it seems Orcs are coming out in October I think there's good reason to think that we'll see ours in the next 3 weeks. Gotta keep the hype train crashing through people's bank accounts!
Caspian89 wrote: Does anyone think we might see our Codex in September? Given that GSC was featured in both Kill Team and "Tooth and Claw" and given how quick the Space Wolves codex came out alongside "Tooth and Claw" and given how it seems Orcs are coming out in October I think there's good reason to think that we'll see ours in the next 3 weeks. Gotta keep the hype train crashing through people's bank accounts!
Three months at least - Armigers were Mar to June, and that seems to fit with GW's current preview window and the only thing officially announced for the Genestealer Cult codex is that it isn't coming out with the new models.
Maybe a November release before Christmas, or one of the first books in the new year if it's something that is revealed at the November 40K Open day rather than announced at one of the US events later this year.
So then Tooth and Claw will be the only way to get the new Abberants and the Abominant until the Codex drops....Ya if I were them I'd want it to be exclusive for a few months before I dropped the individual boxes.
Updated the entries for the Abominant and Aberrants with the latest information from Tooth and Claw. Looking forward to getting some table time with the new rules.
Just for a bit of perspective on my experiences with the army, I have been having a lot of trouble with flyers (in particular, Eldar flyers). […] Has anyone else run into similar issues with flyers, and if so, come up with any alternative solutions?
Flyer usage dropped off in our area after the early edition FAQ that made it so they cannot score or count for tabling, so I haven't had much experience fighting them in 8th edition unfortunately. The last time I fought multiple fliers (two Stormtalons) I was able to bring them down with weight of autocannon fire and a few well placed Smites, but they are rather light targets and don't have the -2 penalty.
Could you perhaps provide the Eldar list? Might be easier to find a weakness if we know what else there is.
Asmodas wrote:
Maybe I should just post my current list so you guys have a better idea what I'm actually working with.
Spoiler:
2000 points
GSC Battalion
HQ:
Primus
Primus
Troops:
Acolyte Hybrids x 9
- 2x Demo Charges
Acolyte Hybrids x 9
- 2x Rock Saw
Neophytes x 10
- 6x autogun (including unit leader)
- 2x grenade launcher
- 2x seismic cannon
Neophytes x 13
- 11x shotgun
- 1x grenade launcher
- 1x seismic cannon
- power maul and autopistol on unit leader
As mentioned previously, you could turn that Spearhead into a Patrol if you wanted to save a few points on the Biovore and Exocrine. I'd consider dropping the Seismic Cannon from the Shotgun squad in favor of more bodies if available, as they tend to be on the move more often than not so the cannon will rarely be able to fire to full effect. If available a few more Acolyte weapons would be good as well, as they have generally performed best for me when maxing out on their specials.
ph34r wrote:Are any Brood Brothers superheavies worth taking?
In the current meta I don't think any of them are especially compelling unfortunately. A lot of the competitive lists are building to handle Knights so any Titanic model without some form of invulnerable save is very vulnerable. The Abominant and improved Aberrants ironically are also probably going to add further to the problem, since they should be extremely good at tearing up knights and the like with the upcoming changes.
Caspian89 wrote:Does anyone think we might see our Codex in September? Given that GSC was featured in both Kill Team and "Tooth and Claw" and given how quick the Space Wolves codex came out alongside "Tooth and Claw" and given how it seems Orcs are coming out in October I think there's good reason to think that we'll see ours in the next 3 weeks. Gotta keep the hype train crashing through people's bank accounts!
I'm leaning towards November at the earliest. I recall reading somewhere that there is a major Moonclan Grots release for AoS in the pipeline and they still have the Reaver and Warhound titans for Titanicus that need a release.
I do think someone at GW likes GSC though. The fluff booklet for Kill Team was the first time I can recall in recent memory where a Xenos faction defeated a major Imperial one.
They were fairly solid with Hammers before, though mixed units or even full Pick units are now more viable options due to the buffs from Tooth and Claw. The changes to Bestial Vigor is also going to be interesting, as it makes Aberrants unusually tough against weapons with good AP and Damage 2 or Damage D3, since they now always get the 5+++ against wounds suffered and the damage per wound is reduced by 1.
jifel wrote: Still a little bit pricey but I loooove that stopsign!
Yeah, I'm a bit shocked as to how good its stats are. The question becomes do you value the extra AP and point of damage from the Hammer or flurry of attacks from the Signpost more? I'm hesitantly thinking that the "Improvised Weapon" is going to be better in most cases unless the squad is being built specifically for knight smashing.
Heafstaag wrote: Do we know the point cost for aberrants in the new dex?
Technically Tooth and Claw is for the Index. Still, I think the costs remain unchanged from the reductions in chapter approved.
I haven't really seen anyone point out how awesome it is that Aberrants can now field up to 10 models in a unit. It's used to be 8, max. 10 Abberants with Picks and an Abominant (dare I dream of 2!?), or 9 and an Abominant inside a truck is pretty powerful payload. There's only so many Primuses to go around and only one stratagem a turn for the good Cult Ambush rolls and it seems to me we have to make use of transports for some of our close combat units because of that.
This is a bonkers expensive package though: 463 for 10 Abberants (can include 2 Hypermorphs for no extra cost) w/picks, Abominant and Chimera with 2x Heavy Flamers.
430 for 9 picks, Abominant and a Goliath Truck w/o Demo charges.
Rockgrinder package: 339 for 5 picks, Abominant and a Rockgrinder w/Clearance Incinerator
Mind you I like the Chimera/Truck because you can decide based on your opponent which unit you NEED to ambush and which units you can afford to drive up the board, so the tactical flexibility is great.
Abominant though...I'd want to pair him with Hammers, not Picks. At least then they have the same sorts of targets.
Yeah, I think transports are key. Something like 3 transports, 10 aberrants + HQ, rock saw acolytes, 3 11-12 stealer blobs would give great flexibility in deployment, whilst leaving enough points to put in enough HQs/Neophytes to fill 2 batallions
Started to build my GSC army about a week ago. Have been lurking in this thread since. I've actually read the whole thing, eager to get a better understanding of the army.
I'm a fairly experienced player. My other armies are Deathwatch, Thousand Sons, Dark Eldar and Death Guard. So I'm familiar with squishy T3 models from my Dark Kin but they are so fast and ignore the penalty for moving and shooting heavy weapons.
Which makes the GSC a bit of a mistery for me.
Here's what I understand so far:
Patriarch: Papa Blender. But expensive and really wants to go with the Purestrains for synergie. I'm not a fan of the Purestrain models so I'll likely rarely play him/them.
Magus: Standard budget Psyker. Strange that he is fluff-wise as strong as a Librarian but much weaker on the Tabletop. Also my Thousand Sons are offended that he simply got born with his psychic talent. (Any TS psyker would probably still crush him in psychic combat).
Primus: LOVE the model. Actually converted a Commissar into a Primus so that I can play two Pimuses without having identical twins on the table. Very useful delivery tool and good against GEQ/MEQ infantry in melee. Will probably die to any real CC Character, however.
Acolyte Iconward: Very cool model but right now pretty meh. The artefact is useful but the 6+ FNP won't keep a squad alive.
Acolytes w/ Rocksaws are gold. Ambush with a Primus (+Stratagem) to get where they want and kill their target. But after that they'll very likely die as even ordinary Bolters can really hurt them. Workaround to this seems to be the same as for my Dark Eldar: Target saturation. Just throw more troops/Abberants/etc. at the opponent so that he can't deal with everything at once, thus ensuring that some of the threats survive.
Neophytes are Guardsmen +1. Good for screening or grabbing objectives. What is hard for me to grasp is how to play them in a Goliath Truck. They want to get into 12" (or 6" with the Demo Charges from the Truck). To get there they'll need probably 2 turns. However, they will only hit on 5+ with their heavy weapons when they move, which is odd since for example the Seismic Cannon actually does more damage when it's close. So we have a unit that has to move in close to do some form of damage but at the same time wants to stay stationary to actually hit stuff. How do you handle this?
Abberants: Yay they just got some love and seem really strong. However let me tell you that a 5+ FNP on a T4 frame won't do too much. My Death Guard have better armour and toughness and that FNP doesn't do too much for them either. And since most weapons can easily punch through the 5+ armour that the Abberants have that FNP won't keep them alive for long.
Goliath Rockgrinder: I am a bit surprised that it can be benefit from the +1 to-hit the Primus gives. Very cool but I think when the Codex drops that'll change. I also think it is slightly overcosted. It will hardly do any damage with its ranged weapons but it is quite sturdy. I plan on using one or two to deliver 5 Abberants w/ an Abominant into the enemy lines.
Metamorphs: Not really worth their points right now. Their whole reason for existing is that they can take tyranid-esque melee weapons. But those weapons are pretty bad in their current form, thus rendering them useless as a unit.
Leman Russes, Purestrains and Sentinels are all quite self explanatory.
I would also love to hear your speculations on what we might see in the Codex!
Spoiler:
I think it's very likely we'll see a WT or Relic that'll give +1/-1 to the Ambush roll or maybe grant a re-roll.
Maybe a stratagem which gives +1 to the FNP rolls the Iconward dishes out (for one phase).
A relic bonesword or claw for the Primus, giving something like re-roll to-wound rolls and/or +D3 attacks.
Maybe faction traits for the different cults? GW's policy on which faction to give those seems fairly random. The Death Guard got a huge release and new codex etc. but didn't get any rules for their Septic Cohorts. But the Dark Eldar on the other hand got a deluxe version.
I think the Seismic Cannon and Mining Laser might see a slight adjustment. Maybe indirectly by giving the Goliath Truck a rule that changes heavy weapons to assault weapons if the squad is in the vehicle. Would love to see a buff to the SC to S4 on its long-range profile and the heavy SC to maybe deal a mortal wound on a to-wound roll of a 6+.
I expect to see a stratagem that lets transports outflank or do a scout move etc.
A stratagem or Cult specific rule that restores D3 wounds (or models woth D3 wounds if no injured models are there) when the unit comes in via Cult Ambush. Maybe with the option to spend 2CP to make it D6 wounds.
BOOBYTRAPS! A Stratagem that lets us rig D3 terrain pieces with explosives and if an enemy unit enters them it suffers D3 MW. I don't think that is strong or anything but it is fluffy as hell!
A warlord trait or stratagem (or relic?) that makes Unquestioning Loyalty pass on a 2+.
Some form of CP generation/recovery.
That Gunslinger/Cowboy model we have seen could be a Primus with a ranged loadout.
Started to build my GSC army about a week ago. Have been lurking in this thread since. I've actually read the whole thing, eager to get a better understanding of the army.
I'm a fairly experienced player. My other armies are Deathwatch, Thousand Sons, Dark Eldar and Death Guard. So I'm familiar with squishy T3 models from my Dark Kin but they are so fast and ignore the penalty for moving and shooting heavy weapons.
Which makes the GSC a bit of a mistery for me.
Here's what I understand so far:
Patriarch: Papa Blender. But expensive and really wants to go with the Purestrains for synergie. I'm not a fan of the Purestrain models so I'll likely rarely play him/them.
Magus: Standard budget Psyker. Strange that he is fluff-wise as strong as a Librarian but much weaker on the Tabletop. Also my Thousand Sons are offended that he simply got born with his psychic talent. (Any TS psyker would probably still crush him in psychic combat).
Primus: LOVE the model. Actually converted a Commissar into a Primus so that I can play two Pimuses without having identical twins on the table. Very useful delivery tool and good against GEQ/MEQ infantry in melee. Will probably die to any real CC Character, however.
Acolyte Iconward: Very cool model but right now pretty meh. The artefact is useful but the 6+ FNP won't keep a squad alive.
Acolytes w/ Rocksaws are gold. Ambush with a Primus (+Stratagem) to get where they want and kill their target. But after that they'll very likely die as even ordinary Bolters can really hurt them. Workaround to this seems to be the same as for my Dark Eldar: Target saturation. Just throw more troops/Abberants/etc. at the opponent so that he can't deal with everything at once, thus ensuring that some of the threats survive.
Neophytes are Guardsmen +1. Good for screening or grabbing objectives. What is hard for me to grasp is how to play them in a Goliath Truck. They want to get into 12" (or 6" with the Demo Charges from the Truck). To get there they'll need probably 2 turns. However, they will only hit on 5+ with their heavy weapons when they move, which is odd since for example the Seismic Cannon actually does more damage when it's close. So we have a unit that has to move in close to do some form of damage but at the same time wants to stay stationary to actually hit stuff. How do you handle this?
Abberants: Yay they just got some love and seem really strong. However let me tell you that a 5+ FNP on a T4 frame won't do too much. My Death Guard have better armour and toughness and that FNP doesn't do too much for them either. And since most weapons can easily punch through the 5+ armour that the Abberants have that FNP won't keep them alive for long.
Goliath Rockgrinder: I am a bit surprised that it can be benefit from the +1 to-hit the Primus gives. Very cool but I think when the Codex drops that'll change. I also think it is slightly overcosted. It will hardly do any damage with its ranged weapons but it is quite sturdy. I plan on using one or two to deliver 5 Abberants w/ an Abominant into the enemy lines.
Metamorphs: Not really worth their points right now. Their whole reason for existing is that they can take tyranid-esque melee weapons. But those weapons are pretty bad in their current form, thus rendering them useless as a unit.
Leman Russes, Purestrains and Sentinels are all quite self explanatory.
I would also love to hear your speculations on what we might see in the Codex!
Spoiler:
I think it's very likely we'll see a WT or Relic that'll give +1/-1 to the Ambush roll or maybe grant a re-roll.
Maybe a stratagem which gives +1 to the FNP rolls the Iconward dishes out (for one phase).
A relic bonesword or claw for the Primus, giving something like re-roll to-wound rolls and/or +D3 attacks.
Maybe faction traits for the different cults? GW's policy on which faction to give those seems fairly random. The Death Guard got a huge release and new codex etc. but didn't get any rules for their Septic Cohorts. But the Dark Eldar on the other hand got a deluxe version.
I think the Seismic Cannon and Mining Laser might see a slight adjustment. Maybe indirectly by giving the Goliath Truck a rule that changes heavy weapons to assault weapons if the squad is in the vehicle. Would love to see a buff to the SC to S4 on its long-range profile and the heavy SC to maybe deal a mortal wound on a to-wound roll of a 6+.
I expect to see a stratagem that lets transports outflank or do a scout move etc.
A stratagem or Cult specific rule that restores D3 wounds (or models woth D3 wounds if no injured models are there) when the unit comes in via Cult Ambush. Maybe with the option to spend 2CP to make it D6 wounds.
BOOBYTRAPS! A Stratagem that lets us rig D3 terrain pieces with explosives and if an enemy unit enters them it suffers D3 MW. I don't think that is strong or anything but it is fluffy as hell!
A warlord trait or stratagem (or relic?) that makes Unquestioning Loyalty pass on a 2+.
Some form of CP generation/recovery.
That Gunslinger/Cowboy model we have seen could be a Primus with a ranged loadout.
I would at least get proxy pruestrains as they are the best TAC/anti bubblewrap unit the cult has IMO. ambush a blob, buff them with fast running patriarch, and shred GEQ/MEQ. I find acolytes too fragile for that task and typically only use them as heavy weapons + ablative wounds.
I prefer acolytes in small teams to basically ruin a specific important units day via primus ambush. I had a game where a 4 saw 10 man acolyte blob and primus wiped a kharn escorted berserker squad then the blender himself in melee, (though kharn killed half the squad himself between rounds) WhatI really want to try is a huge blob with power drills vs knights. (Mine is the heavy rock drill that will pierce the heavans, or at least your Lord of war )
Patriarch: Papa Blender. But expensive and really wants to go with the Purestrains for synergie. I'm not a fan of the Purestrain models so I'll likely rarely play him/them.
I've generally found the best offensive use of the Patriarch is as a tool for picking off enemy leaders. He is fast and relatively well protected by the standards of GSC with their invulnerable save and Unquestioning Loyalty, plus they are very consistent at laying down damage with their innate ability to reroll failed to-wound rolls.
The main problem of course lies in biting off more than they can handle. Genestealers are a good bodyguard since they are equally fast, but the more important factor is to insure that the Patriarch has one at all. Blobs of Shotgun Neophytes are fairly good at the job for cheap wounds and Acolytes appreciate the moral immunity as well.
Magus: Standard budget Psyker. Strange that he is fluff-wise as strong as a Librarian but much weaker on the Tabletop.
I think they are better at denying psychic powers than the Librarian is. The Spiritual Leader bubble does help in shutting down Smite and similar offensive powers, while the Magus focuses on denying the augment powers.
Primus: LOVE the model. Actually converted a Commissar into a Primus so that I can play two Pimuses without having identical twins on the table. Very useful delivery tool and good against GEQ/MEQ infantry in melee. Will probably die to any real CC Character, however.
They aren't really meant to fight other combat specialists, but they can do very well against things you would not expect them to due to the Toxin Injector Claw's 2+ to wound ability.
Acolyte Iconward: Very cool model but right now pretty meh. The artefact is useful but the 6+ FNP won't keep a squad alive.
Truthfully the 6+ FNP bubble isn't really the main draw for an Iconward so much as their moral reroll bubble and relatively good combat stats. I tend to use my non-relic Iconwards alongside Neophyte squads working on foot or ambushing, as they appreciate the reroll for moral checks (bigger squads than the other infantry and usually not so threatening as to draw all available anti-infantry fire, so moral is more likely to come into play) and a buddy to provide counter-assault if they get charged by a backfield harassment unit.
Acolytes w/ Rocksaws are gold. Ambush with a Primus (+Stratagem) to get where they want and kill their target. But after that they'll very likely die as even ordinary Bolters can really hurt them. Workaround to this seems to be the same as for my Dark Eldar: Target saturation. Just throw more troops/Abberants/etc. at the opponent so that he can't deal with everything at once, thus ensuring that some of the threats survive.
One trick that helps improve their survivability a bit is to "trap" an enemy model by surrounding it, preventing the enemy from withdrawing so the Acolytes can stay locked in combat through the opponent's shooting phase and ideally clear the combat on their turn. Target saturation is a key element for the army as a whole though, which thankfully the army does well since just about everything shares the same defensive profiles.
Neophytes are Guardsmen +1. Good for screening or grabbing objectives. What is hard for me to grasp is how to play them in a Goliath Truck. They want to get into 12" (or 6" with the Demo Charges from the Truck). To get there they'll need probably 2 turns. However, they will only hit on 5+ with their heavy weapons when they move, which is odd since for example the Seismic Cannon actually does more damage when it's close. So we have a unit that has to move in close to do some form of damage but at the same time wants to stay stationary to actually hit stuff. How do you handle this?
I tend to run mechanized lists more often than not, and my general experience has been that it is usually better to treat the close-range profiles as a threat deterrent than to try to use them proactively unless the match-up requires closing quickly (like say vs AM, Craftworld Eldar, or Tau). Goliath Trucks themselves generally want to hang back towards the rear of the midfield to take advantage of the long range on their own weaponry and to reduce the amount of mid-strength shooting they have to endure, so I tend to have mine move towards the objectives on the first turn and put them in park once in a good spot until conditions require them to move. Generally 24'' out is fine, as the enemy will have to move towards the Goliaths at some point to either grab objectives or to escape the melee threats running amuck in their own backfield.
Also as an aside, if you want to run Goliath Trucks aggressively load them up with Acolyte squads carrying Demolition Charges. The open topped ability works for them as well and the speed of the Goliath provides an impressive 18'' threat range for bombing targets. Once charges are spent (and the target hopefully crippled/dead), the squad can disembark to go pick on objective sitters and the Goliath can either withdraw or go act as an overwatch sponge.
Abberants: Yay they just got some love and seem really strong. However let me tell you that a 5+ FNP on a T4 frame won't do too much. My Death Guard have better armour and toughness and that FNP doesn't do too much for them either. And since most weapons can easily punch through the 5+ armour that the Abberants have that FNP won't keep them alive for long.
The new 5+ FNP aspect of Bestial Vigor alone isn't quite as exciting as the 5+ FNP combined with -1 damage (to a minimum of 1) on a 2 wound model. Basically the two together means that against any 2 damage weapon with good AP Aberrants effectively have a 5+ invulnerable save, since they only suffer 1 damage per shot which can then have the 5+ made against it. Against anti-infantry guns without AP they effectively have a rerollable 5+ save.
They are going to be vulnerable to high rate of fire mid-strength weaponry that relies on weight of wounds to kill targets rather than quality shots (which is good, better saturation with the other troops) but on the other hand, they are going to be obnoxiously hard to deal with via plasma and other weapons that traditionally are the bane of multi-wound infantry.
Goliath Rockgrinder: I am a bit surprised that it can be benefit from the +1 to-hit the Primus gives. Very cool but I think when the Codex drops that'll change. I also think it is slightly overcosted. It will hardly do any damage with its ranged weapons but it is quite sturdy. I plan on using one or two to deliver 5 Abberants w/ an Abominant into the enemy lines.
I've been mostly running mine with Clearance Incinerators since 8th dropped and using them as assault transports that coincidently are happy to get into assault as well. Auto-hits are nice for the Rockgrinder, and it focuses the guns on anti-infantry while the Drilldozer blade (and/or cargo) provides anti-armor functions. They really want other vehicles to provide threat saturation though, since otherwise they are a very stand-out target in an army of infantry or artillery.
I'm somewhat expecting the Rockgrinder to get a rule similar to Carnifexes where they get a bonus to-hit rolls on the charge when the codex drops. If that is the case I could see the Primus no longer providing benefit, but it is worth noting that the Magus' bubble works on vehicles as well so it isn't without precedent.
Metamorphs: Not really worth their points right now. Their whole reason for existing is that they can take tyranid-esque melee weapons. But those weapons are pretty bad in their current form, thus rendering them useless as a unit.
Agreed for the most part, though their original intended role was a mass rending attacks squad for anti-infantry (basically what purestrains do now). In 7th edition a squad would be looking at 5 rending claw attacks each on the charge that either had better chances of hitting than their Acolyte counterparts (Talon), attacked before their Acolyte counterparts (Whip) or hit at S6 (Claw). At the time Purestrains had the advantage of better Weapon Skill and Initiative along with their invulnerable save, so they were better suited to taking on other melee specialists while Metamorphs bludgeoned things to death with weight of attacks.
If they were to bring Metamorphs back to their old costs and drop the cost on their weapons to something more reasonable (maybe add AP -1 to the Talon and D2 on the Claw), I think they could compete fairly well with their current stats. A cheap and disposable chaff clearing melee squad is something the army would love to have, allowing Purestrains to return to their old role of melee superiority while Acolytes remain focused on their special weapons.
Also in regards to the Abominant, going over his rules I noticed that he benefits from his own Chosen One ability as he has the Aberrant keyword and the ability itself does not specify that the affected models need be "another friendly Aberrant" model, just "a friendly Aberrant" model. Sixes to hit with an Abominant are going to hurt...
Hey there! Started collecting GSC not a long ago and finally making some progress. Having problems with Thousand Sons player, and looking for some tips and list building ideas.. I know codex is on the way and many things might change.
I can sometimes win by victory points, capturing or holding lucky objectives, since my units are quite mobile. But in a fair fight I'm getting my ass kicked pretty everytime. I feel kinda cheaty winning only by hiding my units on objectives or behind scenery to get those points...
His inferno bolters rip through transports with ease and wipe my hybrids. Scarab occult terminators teleport into my back line mopping up long range weapon teams
His psychic phase is nightmare... deleting purestrains units with his powers... (no inv saves), messing up my charges. My poor Magus getting locked by his Sorcerers and its hard for me to deny all his powers... Mostly for his + to range on physic powers (it's hard to get closer to them - alive)
Since he is blobbing much, my units cannot go toe to toe with his so I mainly avoid fights. I am betting on good ambushes but even then his units are really tanky (rubrics, terminators), so its like hitting brick wall...
Should I focus on eliminating his Sorcerers with kamikaze charges? I found out he is hurt by long range weapons... but aside leman russ I dont have any...
Some tips for killing TS?
oem0909 wrote: Hey there! Started collecting GSC not a long ago and finally making some progress. Having problems with Thousand Sons player, and looking for some tips and list building ideas.. I know codex is on the way and many things might change.
I can sometimes win by victory points, capturing or holding lucky objectives, since my units are quite mobile. But in a fair fight I'm getting my ass kicked pretty everytime. I feel kinda cheaty winning only by hiding my units on objectives or behind scenery to get those points...
His inferno bolters rip through transports with ease and wipe my hybrids. Scarab occult terminators teleport into my back line mopping up long range weapon teams
His psychic phase is nightmare... deleting purestrains units with his powers... (no inv saves), messing up my charges. My poor Magus getting locked by his Sorcerers and its hard for me to deny all his powers... Mostly for his + to range on physic powers (it's hard to get closer to them - alive)
Since he is blobbing much, my units cannot go toe to toe with his so I mainly avoid fights. I am betting on good ambushes but even then his units are really tanky (rubrics, terminators), so its like hitting brick wall...
Should I focus on eliminating his Sorcerers with kamikaze charges? I found out he is hurt by long range weapons... but aside leman russ I dont have any...
Some tips for killing TS?
Thanks!
remember that magus gives ALL GSC infantry within a bubble deny the witch, you can string out a neophyte blob to extend the range of denies
If you say that Inferno Bolters kill your transports that means your opponent likely plays 20+ Rubrics? Consens of the TS community is that Rubricae are quite meh. Yes they'll just tank autoguns for days. But they are hot garbage in close combat and Purestrains should just rampage right through them.
Why does blobbing keep you from engaging in melee? Sounds like a perfect opportunity to tie up 2+ units in close combat! Most of the TS units are bad at CC. Tzaangors are quite good at it but will simply die to a volume of S4 attacks, which the GSC army has plenty of.
You can also screen your weapon teams with Neophytes, thus pushing the deepstriking Scarabs further away.
I would advise on bringing at least two Magi (Maguses?) to try and disrupt a few spells.
Abberants with the new Power Picks should also work really well against Rubrics or Scarabs since their "All is Dust" rule doesn't work against D3 weapons and with S5 you'll be wounding them on 3+.
SHUPPET wrote:Any suggestions for a dope Primus conversion? Something any of you guys were even considering?
I've seen Commissars conversions that made for rather convincing Primus (example, not mine). I think you could probably make one using the torsos from the Neophyte heavy weapon gunners (similar style) and some Acolyte arms as well. The trickiest part is finding spare parts to make the needle pistol, since the only other plastic needle weapons that I am aware of are the House Escher combi-Needler and the Eversor Assassin's gun.
Also simple head swaps can make a big difference. On my second Primus I used a spare 3rd generation Neophyte head and turned it the opposite direction of the head on the official model. It makes it look like he is smugly challenging his opponent to a duel rather than posed to charge forward.
oem0909 wrote:Hey there! Started collecting GSC not a long ago and finally making some progress. Having problems with Thousand Sons player, and looking for some tips and list building ideas.. I know codex is on the way and many things might change.
Welcome! Could you provide your list and what models you have available? It is hard to give specific advice without knowing what you have to work with.
One thing that might help a bit on the psyker side of things, the Magus' Spiritual Leader ability allows friendly GSC units (including vehicles) within range to deny the witch as though they were psykers if they are directly targeted by an enemy psychic power. With careful positioning you should be able to insure that the majority of your units have the potential to deny powers which will take some of the burden off the Magus. They can still focus spells against a single unit, but the first deny attempt is basically free.
Kanluwen wrote:As a heads up, it looks like "City of Traps" might be more than just an Echoes of War/Mission Specific thing.
It modifies the Cult Ambush table for two of its results.
I don't think so. If you look at the fluff text before the rules regarding how to use the table it mentions the setting of Tooth and Claw specifically along with the Cult of the Thirsting Wyrm and Space Wolves specifically. If it were something intended for wider use I'd assume they would use something more generic (like the descriptions for Cult Ambush results).
That said, there is nothing preventing the use of the rules if both players agree. I think they would be great for Stronghold Assault missions with GSC defenders.
Hey folks, so I'm having an army building problem:
I want to run GSC, but feel like I either end up with Tyranids + a little gsc, or IG + a little gsc. (Or, IG + Tyranids with a patrol of gsc).
My issue is, as I assess units i look for "who does X better than my other options?"
Right now I feel like Tyranids have "better" options than GSC when it comes to... most everything (horde killers elite killers, durable midfield, artillary, anti tank etc) for the points cost.
Can someone highlight to me what they think GSC can do better than IG or Nids?
(Side note: drills, and rock saws have caught my eye as cool... but on easily disposed bodies).
Right now I feel like Tyranids have "better" options than GSC when it comes to... most everything (horde killers elite killers, durable midfield, artillary, anti tank etc) for the points cost.
Can someone highlight to me what they think GSC can do better than IG or Nids?
From my experience GSC is better at assault overall compared to Tyranids due to superior weapon skill values (3+ minimum, 2+ possible) and vastly superior armor cracking abilities provided by universal rending claws and their special weapons (Rock Saws, Power Hammers, Drills, Cutters, Demolition Charges, etc.). Delivering units to assault is easier for GSC since all infantry come equipped with Cult Ambush at a minimum while their transports are relatively inexpensive and allow their passengers to remain embarked for shelter rather than being forced to disembark upon arrival. Another key advantage is that GSC has easy access to strength buffs for the mass attack units (chiefly Purestrain Genestealers) so they can pull double duty as armor crackers if necessary.
The key difference between the two is that GSC hitting power is concentrated in its infantry while its large models focus on keeping them alive. For Tyranids, most of the hitting power is concentrated in Monsters (with some exceptions - Genestealers and Hive Guard being the standouts) while the infantry work to support and protect them. In a meta built to slay Knights, this is advantageous for GSC and detrimental for Tyranids.
Now compared to Astra Militarum/Imperial Guard, I've found GSC does mechanized infantry slightly better due to Goliath Trucks being open topped, so the squishy infantry can hide in their bunker and still contribute offensively while Guardsmen that are embarked on a Taurox or Chimera are not contributing anything (GSC melee units incidentally love the Chimera, Guardsmen not so much). The industrial vehicles are also slightly more durable against dedicated anti-tank weaponry than most vehicles thanks to Rugged Construction. Lastly, if/when a transport is destroyed GSC infantry can still redeploy using Return to Shadows, so they are not as vulnerable to getting stranded as their Guardsmen counterparts.
Also if nothing else, GSC still does alpha strikes better than just about anyone since Cult Ambush was not effected by the deep strike nerf in the Spring FAQ.
Kanluwen wrote:As a heads up, it looks like "City of Traps" might be more than just an Echoes of War/Mission Specific thing.
It modifies the Cult Ambush table for two of its results.
I don't think so. If you look at the fluff text before the rules regarding how to use the table it mentions the setting of Tooth and Claw specifically along with the Cult of the Thirsting Wyrm and Space Wolves specifically. If it were something intended for wider use I'd assume they would use something more generic (like the descriptions for Cult Ambush results).
That said, there is nothing preventing the use of the rules if both players agree. I think they would be great for Stronghold Assault missions with GSC defenders.
Ehh...the rules are more talking about how the Stratagems for Tooth & Claw's missions are specific to the narrative missions.
I don't have the little rules bit(I was splitting it to get a Redemptor), but the glanceover I had was pointing more towards City of Traps being a thing that would be present for the narrative missions and the scenery involved.
It might be a cityfight specific rule that GSC are getting though.
Genestealer cult provide much better cheap screens than Tyranids, are overall better against alpha strikes. Tyranids can screen with multiple large blobs that go straight forwards, but are prone to going second and getting shot up, meaning you're out of screens by turn 2-3 and then you get Deep struck on. GSC screens are amazing because you can space out cheap 10 man Neophyte squads to prevent deepstrike, starting on turn 1 if needed, and they will get at least one turn of use because they weren't there to be shot turn 1.
Purestrains also hit much harder than normal genestealers, as you usually are +1 to hit, and its very easy to get them to S5, often to S6, and they can get extra attacks. Their main strength is that they can do this from reserves fairly reliably, so they are not at risk of dying turn 1 like kraken stealers are. But, they are not as versatile as KRaken stealers. If someone tags you with a vehicle on the far side of the unit where you cant kill it in one round, you aren't falling back and charging.
Strat_N8 wrote:Welcome! Could you provide your list and what models you have available? It is hard to give specific advice without knowing what you have to work with.
One thing that might help a bit on the psyker side of things, the Magus' Spiritual Leader ability allows friendly GSC units (including vehicles) within range to deny the witch as though they were psykers if they are directly targeted by an enemy psychic power. With careful positioning you should be able to insure that the majority of your units have the potential to deny powers which will take some of the burden off the Magus. They can still focus spells against a single unit, but the first deny attempt is basically free.
Hello!
For now I have:
Magus
Primus
Patriarch
30 Neophyte hybrids, some special weapons
25 Acolyte Hybrids, 2 x saw, 2 x drill, 2 x icons, some with demo charges
Chimera
Goliath Truck/Rockgrider magnestised
20 Purestrains
I can proxy one Leman Russ
I'm waiting for codex to buy new stuff, mostly. Maybe I will split Tooth and Claw with someone....
I'm still new to GSC and having some troubles to decide when to Cult Ambush... And when I go for it, sometimes I rely too much on one turn deepstrike charge. And when it fails, my unit gets shredded Maybe more careful ambushes behind scenery? Some tips on good ambush targets, combos?
Get tooth and claw, the abominant and the aberrants are so worth it. I’d also get a couple more neophytes, I don’t like to leave home without at least 50 of them
In a pure 1500+ GSC army I like to have 2 broods of 20 genestealers and 2 Primus as a base then I build from there. Sometimes if I am hard up on a few points I will drop the genestealers to as low as 15 per brood. I like to include at least 1 Magus for mass hypno. I just got the GSC half of Tooth and claw so I will likely be including a full Aberrant brood and the Abominant so I may consider dropping one genestealer brood completly but we will see.
I can't wait to get all my units built, however I think I should wait until the codex drops. I've been busy acquiring models, and I have roughly 20 built acolytes with 2 saws, 10 unbuilt acolytes with tons of extra weapon bits, 30 neophytes, one of each of the hqs, 23 genestealers and a rock grinder, plus 10 of the new abberants! A nice start to a GSC army!
Plus I have my thousands upon thousands of points of guard to back them up!
I think I'm going to go ahead and build the aberrants, but I think I'm going to wait to build up the acolytes in case some of the weapon options change. Anybody think the heavy weapons that the acolytes can take will be nerfed or changed?
Company Commander [2 PL, 38pts]: Display Astra Militarum Orders, Kurov's Aquila, Laspistol, Power fist
Primaris Psyker [2 PL, 46pts]: Force Stave, Nightshroud, Psychic Barrier
Primaris Psyker [2 PL, 46pts]: Force Stave, Psychic Barrier, Gaze of the Emperor
+ Lord of War +
Shadowsword [26 PL, 404pts]: Twin heavy bolter
++ Total: [110 PL, 2000pts] ++
So Here's what I would do with this list:
Swarmlord very expensive I would try to fill out your genestealers to 20 (so you can bomb them up the field). I would add spore cysts to your carnifex so they are -1 to be hit. Your primus has no decisive unit to cult ambush in with. I'd consider consolidating your Acolytes into one big mob or getting more genestealers. The trucks are a bit lack luster they usually only see play in fun games for me (usually when I want to show off the cool trucks lol) Most GSC are better off using bult in cult ambush (and you have tons of stuff on the table to cover the half in req). I want to like/love the clearance incinerator but it's just not effective go with the Seismic cannon. I'd also drop the demo charges they seem cool but you need someone in the truck to use them and likely they have jumped out to assault. It looks like a fun pick up game list and if that's what you are going for great but competitively it's all over the place :-)
PS: My shadowsword never leaves home without 4 sponsons I prefer the heavy flamers but the bolters are great too.
PSS: You can take an engenseer as a hq insted of a Company commander so he can help fix the shadow sword :-)
PSSS: Do not make swarmy your warlord he is gonna die 100% make it your magus he will hopefully be able to hide not giving up warlord so easily.
Tech priest enginseers can NOT be HQs in an IG detachment. The Skitarii version is an HQ choice but lacks the keyword astra militarum, so he can't be taken in a Brood Brothers detachment.
The only good sentinel IMO is the scout, and with infiltrate being less important, they aren’t too useful. I used to use them with autocannons and used as stationary turrets whilst denying early deep strikes. Now I run them with flamers push forward aggressively to cap unguarded objectives. They will often be ignored which is nice, but they never do much
jifel wrote: Tech priest enginseers can NOT be HQs in an IG detachment. The Skitarii version is an HQ choice but lacks the keyword astra militarum, so he can't be taken in a Brood Brothers detachment.
Thx for this I did not know. So I guess an extra psyker or company commander is needed for the sup commander detachment and the engenseer can be the elite.
C4790M wrote: Acolyte weapons should have their points adjusted, as rock saws are far superior to all the other options
To be fair, Rock Saws did have their cost adjusted in chapter approved which is why they are the "default" option. I imagine the other two will see adjustments with the codex (as is, the Rock Saw is a chainfist variant so they already had a baseline for the adjustments, the other two are more unique).
Why is the Acolyte Iconward an HQ? I also just noticed the Abominant is ALSO an HQ. HQ overload.
Fluff-wise Iconwards lead the brood cycles while the Magus attends directly to the Patriarch and the Primus controls the entire wartime organization. Basically Iconwards can be thought of like space marine captains while the Primus is more like a chapter master.
Having a lot of HQ options is arguably good with the so-called "rule of 3" in effect.
weaver9 wrote: What do you all think about this? Kind of just using models I have. Is it horrible?
I think it has some promise. Lots of T6-T7 threat saturation and relatively few infantry bodies for the enemy to shoot on the early turns. I'll go section by section for more specific thoughts:
Tyranids:
I don't think Swarmlord is going to do much for you here. He is useful for pure Tyranid detachments but as an ally I think he is mostly being a big points sink given the size of the detachment. Since you already have a fair amount of Carnifexes, I'd consider Old One Eye instead for his +1 to hit bubble and maybe a Neurothrope if you are concerned about synapse (I don't think it should be a problem with the Carnifexes as configured, but worth remembering). Also probably should look at adding Spore Cysts if points allow, as they are a huge boon to the survivability of the Carnifex against low rate of fire weaponry.
GSC:
I think with 5-strong units of Acolytes and the Goliath Trucks as transports I'd favor Demolition Charges over the other weapons since they synergize better and are cheap. At 5-strong the squads need to be treated as disposable since they don't really have enough ablative bodies to protect more sizable investments. I also don't really like the Demolition Cache on Goliath Trucks that aren't being used with Demolition Squads, since the range conflicts with that of the other weapons and by design it wants to play a stand-off game rather than an aggressive one (Chimera is better in that regard).
Barring a weapon swap, I'd probably drop the charges from two of the trucks and condense the two Rock Cutter squads into one 10-strong squad, drop the Rock Drill squad, and add a pair of Neophyte squads (add weapons as points allow) This will give you a few more bodies and will take better advantage of the Goliath's capabilities and will better protect the Rock Cutters so they can do their work. The 10-strong Acolyte unit will make a good unit to accompany a Primus in ambush or can ride in a Goliath while one of the Neophyte squads ambushes.
AM:
Fairly standard High Command. The only thing I'd be cautious about is a Shadow Sword in an environment dominated by Knight Castellans. If you don't get the alpha it will probably end up scrap on the first turn, at which point you probably would have been better served with a squadron of Leman Russ tanks or more GSC ambushers. Still a strong weapon mind you, just also a very high priority target.
Causalis wrote: I ordered two Sentinels. Which version do you play and with what weapon?
In the Forgeworld Index there are rules for the AM Power Lifter Sentinel. They are my favourite with infiltrate, good move, decent assault stats and decent survivability.
In a GSC-detachment I'd say scout sentinels with heavy flamers. They are less important now with the turn one deepstrike changes, but they still have some value. I only bring them if I have a lot of other vehicles in the list, because they benefit from a bit of target saturation.
Cult Leman Russ: 2x Heavy Bolter, Battle Cannon, Heavy Bolter
Cult Leman Russ: 2x Heavy Bolter, Battle Cannon, Lascannon
This comes out to about 1300 points. My goal is to get a solid 2000 points and after add additional models for more varietyand options.
My plan is to get the following:
A second Magus and Primus
2x5 Acolytes w/2x2 Demo Charges
2x Sentinels
2x Goliath Truck/Rockgrinder
1x Chimera w/ 2x Heavy Flamers
10x Neophytes w/ 2x Heavy Stubber, 2x Grenade Launcher
What do you think? Should I add/change anything?
The gameplan is to put my Aberrants with their Abominant in the Rockgrinder and rush them forwards alongside the Chimera which will transport the 2x5 Acolytes, a Magus and the Iconward. The Rockgrinder + passengers will smash into the meanest looking tank/MC/elite infantry. The Chimera will help to clean screening units and the Acolytes will throw their Demo Charges at whatever needs to die and afterwards I want to use them as a nuisance to trap units in CC or help clear screens.
The Neophytes with their 2x Heavy Stubbers will simply camp on a backfield objective and thin out hordes. The other two Neophyte squads will split up: One goes into ambush with a Magus to grab objectives or shoot at stuff if they roll that sweet 5 on the table and the other will catch a ride in the Goliath Truck, moving forward to the midfield and give fire support.
My Primus will go into ambush with the big 10x Acolytes squad. With his re-roll on the table and the stratagem I hope to get them pretty reliably into a juicy target or rampage them through my opponent's backline.
The Leman Russes are on AT duty. They'll stay in my backfield and lay the hurt on tanks/MCs/elites etc.
I don't know how I'll equip the sentinels. Maybe Scouts w/ Heavy Flamers to be an annoyance.
In general my army has a lot of units that can take on monsters and tanks. Those units will be supportet by the Neophytes which will clean screens and shoot at infantry. The problems I can see are more inherent to the army as a whole rather than my list. GSC hit pretty hard but have very bad armour. Shooty armies shouldn't be that much of a problem since Cult Ambush allows to get to those units quite fast. But CC oriented armies like Orks etc. could be tough since they can just counter-charge our units and will most likely wipe them out in one go.
SHUPPET wrote: Any suggestions for a dope Primus conversion? Something any of you guys were even considering?
I converted one from a Death jester. Turned out pretty good. Pic is spoilered below.
Spoiler:
The legs and base are from the DJ. Cape is from the Deathwatch kill team sprue. The needle pistol is made from a spare autopistol with the barrel cut off and replaced with the pointy end of a Harlequin’s kiss, with a sight added on, again from the kill team box. The backpack and sword arm are spare bits from the neophyte and acolyte sprues.
SHUPPET wrote: Any suggestions for a dope Primus conversion? Something any of you guys were even considering?
I converted one from a Death jester. Turned out pretty good. Pic is spoilered below.
Spoiler:
The legs and base are from the DJ. Cape is from the Deathwatch kill team sprue. The needle pistol is made from a spare autopistol with the barrel cut off and replaced with the pointy end of a Harlequin’s kiss, with a sight added on, again from the kill team box. The backpack and sword arm are spare bits from the neophyte and acolyte sprues.
Arkengate wrote: Whats a good number of each model (count basically) before i start running gsc?
1 of each HQ, 30 Neophytes, 30 acolytes, 5 metamorphs, and 10 aberrrants, 20 purestrain?
I would prefer to stay away from IG and their vehicles, and lean more towards GSC running alone or GSC+Nids
Generally speaking, a big unit of genestealers ambushing with a primus and the stratagem is our best bet. So 2x primus and 40x purestrains, then you can do it both turn 1 and turn 2.
The new abominant seems to be worth it's weight in gold. So maybe have multiples of that.
You don't really need any metamorphs. They are expensive and fragile and are never best in their slot.
I think 30 acolytes is overkill, 20 should do it. The standard way to run them is units of 10 with multiple rocksaws. And it is rare to see more than one or two such units in an army.
You might eventually want more than 30 neophytes, depends on how you use them. Units of 20 with few upgrades seems popular. (tip: Units of 11 neophytes give you 10 power levels to deploy on the table, if you want to ambush many other units.) 30 is definitely enough to start.
PS: Any of this might change with the codex, and we really don't know how far away it is...
Yesterday I had my first game with the GSC against none other than the Deathwatch. How fitting!
We played 1500 points. He had two Stalker Squads, two Intercessor Squads and two Vet Squads with SS and the dreaded Frag Canons in a Corvus. He also had 3 Captains, the Watch Master and a Vindicare Assassin.
I had a Magus, Primus, Iconward and Abominant for HQs. I also had 2x10 Neophytes w/ 2x GL, 2xSC, 1x10 Neophytes w/ 2x GL, 2xHS. 1x10 Acolytes w/ Banner, 3x Saws and 1x Drill. 5x Aberrants w/ 2x Hammers, 2x Picks and Hypermorph w/ Improv Weapon and Tail. I also brought 2x Leman Russes w/ BCs and 3x Heavy Bolters. And for transports I had a Rockgrinder and a Truck.
We played "Big Guns never tire".
The Heavy Stubber Neophyte Squad camped on a backfield objective and harassed some Marines. However, even in cover and with the Iconward nearby two Frag Canons just annihilated them.
The other Neophytes rode in the Truck and ambushed with the Magus respectively. The Truckers did quite well and survived the whole game, thanks to their ride passing a good chunk of 6+++. They were pretty much just an annoyance but they were useful to grab a midfield objective and ruin the black paintjob on the Marines' power armour. I must say that theit Seismic Cannons performed better than I had anticipated. The rending 6s are nasty against Marines. And one has to keep in mind that the squads only cost about 84 poinst each so by killing just 3-4 Marines they have made their points back.
My Neophytes ambushed with the Primus, using the respective stratagem. They got the lovely 6 and killed a Captain, 5x Intercessors and eventually 5x Stalker Dudes. While they do pack quite the punch (and I LOOOOVE the drill. Not because it is particularly strong but because its rule is so creative and fun) they also die to simple Bolter fire etc. Heck, the Intercessor Sarge with his Chainsword killed 3 in close combat himself since a T3 5+ isn't exactly something that holds up against any kind of damage. The answer here seems to be target saturation and simply bringing a few more Acolytes. I plan on playing 1x10 and 2x5 squads. Love the Primus btw. His +1 to-hit was so incredibly useful! With some good manouvering I got him near the Abominant, Aberrants and their Rockgrinder.
Speaking of which, our murder Truck is hilarious. I found both Goliath variants to be more resilient than a normal Rhino since most AT weapons are S8+ anyway and have AP-2/-3 most of the time so their 4+ compared to a 5+ doesn't matter that much. But that 6+++ matters!
The Rockgrinder didn't do all that much damage since there were mostly Marines. Thus he couldn't charge at any monster or vehicle to grind it down.
The Aberrants. My god, the Aberrants! These guys rock. They are actually ~50p cheaper than the Acolyte Squad I ran but much more survivable and they pack a really mean punch. The Power Picks are really good thanks to those additional rending claw attacks. And the Hypermorph can kill a small squad on his own. The Abominant is also really terrifying for... well actually anything he can smash his hammer into.
In the end I won and almost tabled my opponent. It was a very fun game and I learned a lot.
Arkengate wrote: Whats a good number of each model (count basically) before i start running gsc?
1 of each HQ, 30 Neophytes, 30 acolytes, 5 metamorphs, and 10 aberrrants, 20 purestrain?
I would prefer to stay away from IG and their vehicles, and lean more towards GSC running alone or GSC+Nids
Generally speaking, a big unit of genestealers ambushing with a primus and the stratagem is our best bet. So 2x primus and 40x purestrains, then you can do it both turn 1 and turn 2.
The new abominant seems to be worth it's weight in gold. So maybe have multiples of that.
You don't really need any metamorphs. They are expensive and fragile and are never best in their slot.
I think 30 acolytes is overkill, 20 should do it. The standard way to run them is units of 10 with multiple rocksaws. And it is rare to see more than one or two such units in an army.
You might eventually want more than 30 neophytes, depends on how you use them. Units of 20 with few upgrades seems popular. (tip: Units of 11 neophytes give you 10 power levels to deploy on the table, if you want to ambush many other units.) 30 is definitely enough to start.
PS: Any of this might change with the codex, and we really don't know how far away it is...
I'd wager that with the buffs aberrants received that they've actually surpassed purestrains as the go to hammer in your ambush toolbox. They're fairly equal when it comes to durability(in most cases, the aberrants are more durable) and the offensive outpout of the aberrants far outstrips the 'stealers.
Not to say purestrains do not have their place. Movement is very important and after the initial blow they do have a much bigger threat range compared to the aberrants.
Arkengate wrote: Whats a good number of each model (count basically) before i start running gsc?
1 of each HQ, 30 Neophytes, 30 acolytes, 5 metamorphs, and 10 aberrrants, 20 purestrain?
I would prefer to stay away from IG and their vehicles, and lean more towards GSC running alone or GSC+Nids
Generally speaking, a big unit of genestealers ambushing with a primus and the stratagem is our best bet. So 2x primus and 40x purestrains, then you can do it both turn 1 and turn 2.
The new abominant seems to be worth it's weight in gold. So maybe have multiples of that.
You don't really need any metamorphs. They are expensive and fragile and are never best in their slot.
I think 30 acolytes is overkill, 20 should do it. The standard way to run them is units of 10 with multiple rocksaws. And it is rare to see more than one or two such units in an army.
You might eventually want more than 30 neophytes, depends on how you use them. Units of 20 with few upgrades seems popular. (tip: Units of 11 neophytes give you 10 power levels to deploy on the table, if you want to ambush many other units.) 30 is definitely enough to start.
PS: Any of this might change with the codex, and we really don't know how far away it is...
I'd wager that with the buffs aberrants received that they've actually surpassed purestrains as the go to hammer in your ambush toolbox. They're fairly equal when it comes to durability(in most cases, the aberrants are more durable) and the offensive outpout of the aberrants far outstrips the 'stealers.
Not to say purestrains do not have their place. Movement is very important and after the initial blow they do have a much bigger threat range compared to the aberrants.
So on that note...
I ran a bunch of mathhammer comparing the new Abberants against Genestealers.
Focus was on their offensive abilities vs a series of defensive statlines:
Abberant (203) gear was:
1 Hypermorph, Improvised Weapon
2 Abberants with a Hammer
4 Abberamts with a Pick
Being compared to
14 Genestealers (210)
Overall offensive ability was more or less equal, with abberants pulling ahead vs higher toughness targets.
I then added in various leadership auras/spells and their respective lords (Patriarch, and Abominant).
Only thing I didn't account for was the abominant's exploding dice aura. Which leads me to think Abberants are winning out in the dmg department.
Of course Stealers are killing more MEQ with 1 wound than Abberants but, both are wiping 16+ models off the field, so it's kind of academic at that point, unless you're fighting fearless blobs.
Also defensively I would argue they are also superior due to the updated bestial vigor.
Tl;dr I'd take them over stealers against anything but blobs.
Causalis wrote: I ordered two Sentinels. Which version do you play and with what weapon?
In the Forgeworld Index there are rules for the AM Power Lifter Sentinel. They are my favourite with infiltrate, good move, decent assault stats and decent survivability.
In a GSC-detachment I'd say scout sentinels with heavy flamers. They are less important now with the turn one deepstrike changes, but they still have some value. I only bring them if I have a lot of other vehicles in the list, because they benefit from a bit of target saturation.
One consequential detail was brought to my attention with the Sentinel Power Lifters: they are not a Squadron unit. A unit of 3 deploys as a single unit and remains as a unit! I think this is amazing because it means that if you use the "Crush Them!" stratagem you get to apply it to 3 Power Lifters per turn, not just one. The strategem clearly states "select an AM Vehicle UNIT". This Strategem is insane with Power Lifters as it allows them to move, advance AND charge. That is roughly a 19" threat range with average rolls. Add in their scouting move and if you get first turn you can try to blow up some big target the opponent thoughts was safe with 9 attacks hitting on 2+, S10, AP-2, Dd3.
I like these over Scout Sentinels as they synergize better with the rest of the army but they serve different roles. Also they are SUPER cheap, point wise, 45 each. Oh and they get smoke launchers.
They don't sell the model anymore. I used bits from Killa-Kans to make the Scout Sentinel suitably drilly/cutty/stabby.
Caspian89 wrote: They don't sell the model anymore. I used bits from Killa-Kans to make the Scout Sentinel suitably drilly/cutty/stabby.
Could also possibly use left over weapon arms from the Goliath Truck kit as lift arms. Then just need a suitable "fork lift/claw" to go on the end. Alternatively, the Servohauler terrain kit has some nice grapples that should fit on a Sentinel.
Nice find with the stratagem as well. I'm going to have to build some myself...
weaver9 wrote:
Only thing I didn't account for was the abominant's exploding dice aura. Which leads me to think Abberants are winning out in the dmg department.
My brother showed me how to calculate it. Basically you need to figure out how many of your hit rolls will be a 6 (generally multiply Attacks Times 0.16) and then calculate how many hits will be 1-5 (subtract the 1/6th result from the attacks and then multiply as normal). Multiply the first result by 2 (since each 6 inflicts 2 hits) and add it to the second value.
And lastly the Abominant itself (it has the Aberrant keyword so is affected by its own aura): - Step 1: 3 * 0.16 = 0.48 | 0.48 *2 = 0.96 hits from - Step 2: 3 - 0.48 = 2.52 - Step 3: 2.52 * 0.66 (assuming WS 3+) = 1.66 hits - Step 4: 1.66 hits + 0.96 hits = 2.62 expected hits.
I do think Aberrants are very solid at the moment. I ran a pair of 6-strong units with a 50/50 mix of weapons (no Hypermorphs) at our gaming night to see how they would do and they smashed everything. The new Bestial Vigor is a really nice defense against big targets with both features working together to mitigate high powered hits. I started with 12 Aberrants and ended the game with 9 still standing.
Abominant is pretty nice as well, I think they are a great option for warlord since they are absurdly hard to kill. Mine took a solid 6 damage hit from a Soul Grinder and he knocked it down to just 3 after all his defensive tricks (and I rolled poorly...). Next turn he regenerated 2 and continued on his merry way.
This math is incorrect. You're adding in additional hits by multiplying by 2/3 the second time. Which means you're counting extra 6's. Also, the rounding is making the values even more invalid.
Exploding sixes would be (6 attacks/6 x 2) + (6 attacks/2) = 5 pick hits on average. With rending claw attacks, it would be 10 total hits for three aberrants within range of an abominant.
The first part accounts for the 6's rolled multiplied by the exploding amount (2), and the second part gives the remaining 3's, 4's, and 5's.
Yeah it's around 80pts I think - seems like a reasonable price for what you get. Can't help but compare him to the options the BA smash captain gets though with invulns and mega mobility...
I’ve been thinking about getting a Ferratonic Furnace terrain kit to run as a Bastion/Plasma Obliterator for my cult. Anyone tried running fortifications? It seems like having a big tough building to stick your squishies in while everything else deepstrikes would work well. Plus the 17” move genestealers could get piling out of one is a serious threat bubble. I just dunno if it’s worth the 200 point pricetag.
mightymconeshot wrote: Thanks. Are chimeras or Goliaths worth it to transport aberrants or genestealera?
IMHO, yes. They are a bit expensive in points but can be useful. Ambush with primus/stratagem is a better way to deliver assaulty units, but you can only do that once per turn. Transports are more reliable than an unmodified random ambush.
They benefit greatly from target saturation. If your army's only vehicles are two transports, it is likely that they will be shot to pieces before they get to deliver.
The chimera is probably the best transport for assault units. I like to use it with double heavy flamer for the auto hits.
Has anyone tried mass acolytes? I benched my GSC when 8th dropped but started modelling on them again recently in preparation for the new book arriving.
I currently have 80 Acolytes including 4 drills 2 snips and 8 saws, 3 banners.
I also have 80 Neophytes, soon to be 100. IDK seems to me that drowning the table in fearless chaf with hidden weapons could be decent
I also have 12 Abareants, soon to be 17 and 34 pruestrains, 10 metamorphs (was 30 ut turned 20 into normal acolytes since there is no way to fix these guys in 8th, they have a core rules issue).
3 of each character except for singles of the abominant and iconward. 2 of each transport truck, grinder and chimera. 3 sentinals.
I went a bit crazy end of 7th lol. I am betting acolytes drop to 8 ppm, same with metamorphs obviously before any gear. I am hesitant to use guard or nids, I play a 8k worth catachan army and my brother has even more nids. I'd really like to run a pure cult even though I know it isn't that good right now. I have a feeling they are going to be amazing again soon. Point drops are all they really need, they seem to run out of gas now which is because they have a problem with acolytes costing way too much, but being the heavy lifters as troops.
Anyway, sorry that rambled a bit, been painting for a few too many hours straight these last two days lol.
Not with that many acolytes, but I have tried a few times with only infantry models in the army. And I found it quite frustrating. It feels like I lack control over the game since I have no reliable ranged anti-vehicle, and once the ambushes are done the army is pretty slow. I didn't quite manage to swamp my opponents, so they got to choose their combats quite a lot.
Mind you, it was very fun and thematic to play the gibbering hordes! And there is a certain pleasure in seeing a frustrated opponent shoot their anti-tank weapons at acolytes. So I definitely think you should set up a list and play a few games to try it out for yourself.
Flyer usage dropped off in our area after the early edition FAQ that made it so they cannot score or count for tabling, so I haven't had much experience fighting them in 8th edition unfortunately. The last time I fought multiple fliers (two Stormtalons) I was able to bring them down with weight of autocannon fire and a few well placed Smites, but they are rather light targets and don't have the -2 penalty.
Could you perhaps provide the Eldar list? Might be easier to find a weakness if we know what else there is.
Hey Stat_N8, I somehow missed your request to provide the Eldar list my friend plays when I originally read your reply. Thanks again for your advice, as well as for all your work maintaining this thread.
The Eldar list I have been getting crushed by (as in, tabled by turn 3 repeatedly) looks something like this:
Spoiler:
Battalion - Biel Tan Craftworld
Spiritseer (Quicken, Spirit Stone of Anathlan)
Warlock Skyrunner (usually with Jinx or one of the other combat oriented powers) - Warlord with Natural Leader (i.e. Free Guide every turn)
6 x Dire Avengers
20 x Guardians with a Shuriken Cannon Platform in the webway
5 x Rangers
7 x Wraithblades with Axes and Shields
5 x Dark Reapers with Exarch
Crimson Hunter Exarch
Hemlock Wraithfighter
2 x Wave Serpents with triple Shuriken Cannon loadout
Outrider Detachment - Biel Tan
Farseer Skyrunner with Doom and Executioner
6 x Swooping Hawks
3 x Windriders with Shuriken Cannons
4 x Windriders with Shuriken Cannons
In essence, the Wraithblades stand in front and screen off the shooting units while the jetbikes screen off the flanks. Wraithblades with shields are T6, 3 wounds, 3+ save, 4++, so they are ridiculous hard to chew through with most of our units. I have crashed 20 genestealers into them and only taken out 3. They usually walk forward and either take a key objective and say 'come at me bro,' or just hang with the rest of the army until I commit my melee units, then they counter-charge and wreck my most valuable unit. With Quicken cast on them by the spiritseer, they can actually cover quite a bit of ground. The jetbikes actually do a good job of screening off ambushes because they take up a lot of space and are fairly cheap. With Biel Tan tactics, basically the whole army has reroll 1s to hit for free. He usually holds the guardian bomb in the webway and the swooping hawks in reserve until I commit my ambushes, then drops them in and uses them to delete the ambushers. The Wave Serpents are a pain, too, since they can shrug off damage from things like autocannons pretty easily.
I can't touch the flyers, either, but they can definitely touch me, so I usually end up losing two transports on the first turn and then whatever vehicles I have left on the second turn. Until I started adding Nids, I couldn't even take one of them down, on average. The Hemlock is a particular problem because it can continue doing bad things to you with its psychic abilities/Ld debuffs even after its ideal targets have been taken down.
A typical game sees me killing the jetbikes and a few other troop units before getting tabled fairly quickly. I'm not sure there is a really good answer to this list - it is pretty unorthodox, but it is built in a way that it can really smash GSC. Biel Tan is typically not considered the best craftworld, but it is brutal against our hybrids when used in a list that makes use of massed shuriken weapons.
Not with that many acolytes, but I have tried a few times with only infantry models in the army. And I found it quite frustrating. It feels like I lack control over the game since I have no reliable ranged anti-vehicle, and once the ambushes are done the army is pretty slow. I didn't quite manage to swamp my opponents, so they got to choose their combats quite a lot.
Mind you, it was very fun and thematic to play the gibbering hordes! And there is a certain pleasure in seeing a frustrated opponent shoot their anti-tank weapons at acolytes. So I definitely think you should set up a list and play a few games to try it out for yourself.
What do you think your army list would look like?
IDK, every time I start making lists I get half way through and realize I am paying WAY too much for acolytes compared to how many more bodies I can get from Neophytes. I feel like the best horde from the index would be 250 neophytes made fearless by patriarchs with familars to eat sniper missiles from knights, but then I feel like I am just playing whack a mole only I am the damned mole! Ha ha ha! I probably have 2 months worth of painting to get through all these duders any way, so I guess I should just grit my teeth get through it and enjoy the price cuts when the new book finally drops.
I re read through the index points just a minute ago and at one point I scared my wife I let out such an audible laugh, I mean I had forgotten the power maul in the index is 13 points! Hand flamer...8 points!!! which is so trolltastic when you look at the fully fledged flammer which is literally better in every way and 7 points...7... points... The power hammer is essentially a thunder hammer, actually, it literally IS a thunder hammer 24 points! Power pick 16 points. This book is going to give point cuts that will blow the mind, I mean, the hand flamer in the blood angel book is 1 point for example, thats a 7 point drop. If acolytes go down to 8 ppm and hand flamers to 1pt I will definitely have to try a big clump of them all with flamers.
I guess I was desperate for someone to convince me of anything that would work that I am not seeing, but I guess that would just look like using allies that are far better which I already said I wasn't super interested in.
Oh one last one, eradicator nova anon 46pts! I am dying here.
Not with that many acolytes, but I have tried a few times with only infantry models in the army. And I found it quite frustrating. It feels like I lack control over the game since I have no reliable ranged anti-vehicle, and once the ambushes are done the army is pretty slow. I didn't quite manage to swamp my opponents, so they got to choose their combats quite a lot.
Mind you, it was very fun and thematic to play the gibbering hordes! And there is a certain pleasure in seeing a frustrated opponent shoot their anti-tank weapons at acolytes. So I definitely think you should set up a list and play a few games to try it out for yourself.
What do you think your army list would look like?
yeah and I find them too expensive for what they do to be used as a horde, especially compared to neophytes who have much better shooting and the same save for less then half the cost. I find acolytes work best as a single solid strike against the enemies trump card unit. Ambush a squad of 10-12 via primus and strategem with the appropriate heavy weapons near a vital enemy unit and maul it in a single round.
Badablack wrote: I’ve been thinking about getting a Ferratonic Furnace terrain kit to run as a Bastion/Plasma Obliterator for my cult. Anyone tried running fortifications? It seems like having a big tough building to stick your squishies in while everything else deepstrikes would work well. Plus the 17” move genestealers could get piling out of one is a serious threat bubble. I just dunno if it’s worth the 200 point pricetag.
From a modeling perspective that is a very clever idea actually. I hadn't thought about it but the Furance is around the same size, so a few spare Heavy Bolters from the weapon teams and it would make a serviceable "industrial bastion"
I have not used fortifications with my GSC yet but they should be serviceable. GSC likes having things to hide stuff out of line of sight and I think all of the buildings have fairly high transport capacity. Need to be weary about Knights though...
Red Corsair wrote:Has anyone tried mass acolytes? I benched my GSC when 8th dropped but started modelling on them again recently in preparation for the new book arriving.
I've considered it, but it is a bit like doing mass Devastator marines. They currently aren't very cost efficient used as cannon fodder but do hit very hard, so they are better used as a "bomb" to send after key models.
The closest I've gotten to mass Acolytes is in my mechanized lists, where there is usually a 1-1 ratio of Acolytes to Neophytes. Acolyte demolition squads work very well with Goliath Trucks and said trucks with Acolytes are perfectly happy zipping up alongside Rockgrinders for threat saturation. Once the squad's demolition charges have been spent they can jump out and start picking on infantry on objectives.
Red Corsair wrote: I also have 80 Neophytes, soon to be 100. IDK seems to me that drowning the table in fearless chaf with hidden weapons could be decent
I don't know. Overwhelming firepower isn't really the army's strong point and attrition is really something GSC doesn't want to get in to if it can help it (see quote from Kill Team). Blocks of Neophytes to act as the "anvil" might work, but I wouldn't focus on spamming them to the exclusion of everything else as they don't have the same offensive potential that the melee squads bring.
Red Corsair wrote: 10 metamorphs (was 30 ut turned 20 into normal acolytes since there is no way to fix these guys in 8th, they have a core rules issue).
They work fairly well in Kill Team actually. They get a rather powerful tactic (read "stratagem") that adds +1 to wound rolls and are at about half the cost they are in standard 40k.
I think the main "fix" they need is a cost adjustment to bring them in line as the "cheap" mass attack melee option. I'd also probably give their Metamorph weapons AP-1 since they had the same AP as rending claws in 7th edition, but that would be a bonus.
Red Corsair wrote: I guess I was desperate for someone to convince me of anything that would work that I am not seeing, but I guess that would just look like using allies that are far better which I already said I wasn't super interested in.
The main benefit of allies (besides their having codexes and our not having one yet) is that they basically enable 7th-edition style foot lists by providing the "anvil" required by matched play reserve rules. If you play pure GSC you need to divide your list between the "something" that starts on the table and the ambushing elements. I've generally found vehicles work best as the on-table force, since they can't ambush anyway and in the case of transport vehicles bring mobility to supplement the army after ambushes have dropped. Return to shadows helps a little bit, but pure foot runs into the issue of mobility unless you have allies acting as the anvil (since they are either very fast in the case of Tyranids or don't care about moving in the case of AM).
Based on what you mentioned having, try a list with a core of 2-squads of Goliath mounted Neophytes, 2 squads of Chimera mounted Acolytes, and 2 squad of Rockgrinder mounted Aberrants, then fill out with ambushers and characters. This entire vehicle group provides 12 "ambush slots" and any of the contents can elect to ambush if they need to.
Asmodas wrote: Hey Stat_N8, I somehow missed your request to provide the Eldar list my friend plays when I originally read your reply. Thanks again for your advice, as well as for all your work maintaining this thread.
Thank you for the kind words, and no worries.
That is a very unconventional Eldar list... I'll ask my brother to give it a closer inspection (The craftworlders were his first army) but my initial impression is that they might have tailored a bit since they are putting such focus on low-to-mid strength, high rate of fire shooting (which GSC hates) at the expense of dedicated anti-tank for fighting Knights and the like. First thing that pops into my mind is to bring some Cult Russes, since they only have the fliers and Dark Reapers for dedicated anti-tank and of those only the Hemlock will be able to wound them on a 3+ (everything else should be S8). The Exterminator Autocannon is probably going to be the best gun for this particular match-up since it brings a very high rate of fire (8 S7 shots) which should help compensate for the accuracy penalties on the planes and the -1 damage ability on the Wave Serpents.
Also the newly buffed Aberrants should be an even match for the Wraith Blades if you pop Might from Beyond on them. That would be 6 swings per Power Pick model and 3 for each Hammer model.
I finally finished the Power Lifter pieces for my Sentinel models. I magnetized some Killa Kan arms and painted them suitably to match the other mining weapons. I think it does the job well and the bits are not expensive. Now to field these little ankle biters.
Caspian89 wrote: I finally finished the Power Lifter pieces for my Sentinel models. I magnetized some Killa Kan arms and painted them suitably to match the other mining weapons. I think it does the job well and the bits are not expensive. Now to field these little ankle biters.
That was really pretty! Good job. I might steal that idea.
I've been tempted, but with the model no longer prduced for quite some time by FW it won't be long before they drop the rules entirely. Those still work as sentinels with the chainsaw if and when it happens though, and they do look good.
Your army is an inspiration! I really like the pallet you chose.
Red Corsair wrote: I've been tempted, but with the model no longer prduced for quite some time by FW it won't be long before they drop the rules entirely. Those still work as sentinels with the chainsaw if and when it happens though, and they do look good.
Your army is an inspiration! I really like the pallet you chose.
Thanks for your kind words.
The beauty of magnetizing my sentinels is that if the rules change I can't get too fussed about it. I just stop attaching the cutty bits and attach the shooty bits instead.
Yea I agree, I have the magnets but I am often too impatient to mess with them, so it is my own stupidity lol. I wish the standard chainsaw was better at least but it is funny getting buffs from nearby characters. Thats the other issue I have with the power lifters (which is my own problem) is I can't take them from a GSC detachment.
Man I am so ready for some points drops, the army is still very strong it just runs out of gas too early.
mightymconeshot wrote: Thanks. Are chimeras or Goliaths worth it to transport aberrants or genestealera?
IMHO, yes. They are a bit expensive in points but can be useful. Ambush with primus/stratagem is a better way to deliver assaulty units, but you can only do that once per turn. Transports are more reliable than an unmodified random ambush.
They benefit greatly from target saturation. If your army's only vehicles are two transports, it is likely that they will be shot to pieces before they get to deliver.
The chimera is probably the best transport for assault units. I like to use it with double heavy flamer for the auto hits.
Using just the primus is still pretty good odds, so taking a primus for each ambushing squad lets you drop several in a turn with most getting a good roll.
Personally I'm painting up several carnifex and a hive tyrant to be my on board anvil for the GSC ambush hammer.
mightymconeshot wrote: Thanks. Are chimeras or Goliaths worth it to transport aberrants or genestealera?
IMHO, yes. They are a bit expensive in points but can be useful. Ambush with primus/stratagem is a better way to deliver assaulty units, but you can only do that once per turn. Transports are more reliable than an unmodified random ambush.
They benefit greatly from target saturation. If your army's only vehicles are two transports, it is likely that they will be shot to pieces before they get to deliver.
The chimera is probably the best transport for assault units. I like to use it with double heavy flamer for the auto hits.
Using just the primus is still pretty good odds, so taking a primus for each ambushing squad lets you drop several in a turn with most getting a good roll.
Personally I'm painting up several carnifex and a hive tyrant to be my on board anvil for the GSC ambush hammer.
A Jormangondr gun line can do serious work. Add in GSC ambushers, and you've got an army. Though I'd use Neurothrope for the HQ's they are more survivable as characters, and still have cool Hive Mind Powerz!
I'm wondering how people are resolving their ambushing when wanting more than one HQ with a squad?
I have my Hammerant squad and I'd like to run that with the Abominant for his aura and his role which overlaps the Hammerants. Trouble is that I want the Primus too for the +1 to hit and the accurate ambush. So how do you propose I do it?
I can use the Primus + strategem for the Hammerant squad. Then for the lone Abominant use a single dice Cult Ambush roll backed by a regular 1CP point re-roll. Probably have the Abominant come in with Neophytes for some bubble wrap.
OR
Better to use the strategem for 2 dice on the Abominant attached to squad, re-roll if required. Then have the Primus come in alone (or with Neophytes) with a single dice Cult Ambush and 'natural' re-roll?
Same problem with a Genestealer Squad. Would like the accuracy of the Primus but I want the buffs/psychic of the Patriarch.
I have great success in just sticking my Abominant + Aberrants in a Rockgrinder and driving them up the field as fast as I can. My Primus ambushes with my big Acolyte squad. And since both the Aberrants and the Acolytes just want to smash the meanest units my opponent has they are often nearby each other by turn 2 or 3, thus the Aberrants are near the Primus for the +1 to-hit.
I also run 2x5 Acolytes w/ 2x2 Demo Charges in a Double HF Chimera with a Magus. They too drive around the field and are fast enough so that I can deliver the Magus to where I need him.
Causalis wrote: I have great success in just sticking my Abominant + Aberrants in a Rockgrinder and driving them up the field as fast as I can. My Primus ambushes with my big Acolyte squad. And since both the Aberrants and the Acolytes just want to smash the meanest units my opponent has they are often nearby each other by turn 2 or 3, thus the Aberrants are near the Primus for the +1 to-hit.
I also run 2x5 Acolytes w/ 2x2 Demo Charges in a Double HF Chimera with a Magus. They too drive around the field and are fast enough so that I can deliver the Magus to where I need him.
Do you find that 5 Abberants are enough to get the job done? Are you running them for hammers or picks?
Also, how do you find the Demo Charges work out? Having them pop out of a Chimera is awesome.
Played a 3 round RTT saturday and learned alot. My list was
2 primus
patriarch
Magus
abomanant
10 aberrants (4 hammer 6 pick)
10 acolytes (4saws)
20 purestrains
3 scout sentinels HF each seperate unit
5x10 neophyes with 1 grenade launcher (one unit had 2)
chimera
1750
Soooooo, mixed results. Played against Tau sept T'au game 1 which was rough. I had 1st turn and ambushed my abbs and purestains rolling a 6 on each, both had a primus with them. This was a mistake, I smelled blood like a shark and went for it. I failed to mind control his riptide 3 turns in a row which sucked since that was gona be my answer to drones. He essentially had a battalion and brigade with 5 man firewariors units all overlaping with fireblades, dark strider, etheral support. I lost 17 purestrains charging in not knowing what dark strider did (I was aware but forgot) his rolls were way above average. I never expected to win this one, but in hind sight I could have. Sould have ambushed the neos mostly instead, played squirrely, I was actually winning most of the game since he was stuck in one place (ITC) but it fell apart.
Game two I played admech with cawl, a pair of dakka bots and a pair of armigers. Not the best army and he wasn't the best p;layer either but we had a blast. Highlights were abberants killing an armiger then killing cawl lmao, had three hammers left on cawl near abomanant, rolled to hit and scored 5 6's and a 5 for 11 hits, needless to say he took 18 wounds and we recycled his body like soda cans. This game was bittersweet because my opponent was paying for his armigers from forge bane so was under points by 120 lol. I told him to redeploy his onegar but he declined, he figured I was overpaying by about that much a least and had no stratagems etc which was cool. It's also probably why the game was so fun. Oh, btw the purestrains came in killed some scrub rangers then died horribly. Again.
Game three I played blood angels and cadians (of course) This game was also hilarious. All day I wanted to mind control something cool, didn't care if I was tabled so long as I pulled off some fun tricks and all day so far I failed to cast a fething WC 6 power or the LD test even with a CP reroll. That changed here, he had a storm raven with hurricane bolters and I took it over every turn lol. I could tell he was getting a bit salty as it was mulching more of his stuff them mine. This game I decided to stagger my ambushers, purestrinas came in 1st again, murdered a 5 man tac squad, 10 man infantry and plinked some wounds on mephiston. Eventually they all died and meph survived somehow (couldn't roll rends for crap and his saved FNP's were red hot) after all you need to fish for 5's on him... he bailed out smash meph with captain smash, I then charged in my aberrants killed smash but stupid meph was on 1 wound in the end when time was called.
Lessons learned, 20 man prestrains and 10 man abberant units are too good. Sounds strange but it's true. They pop in, murder either cheap dispossable crap, or if your lucky a misplaced vanguard type unit, then they die. At 300 points it will never be worth the trade IMO. Consider 20 neophyte with the relic banner and might from beyond + primus will pretty much murder anything anyway, if they don't they have the bodies to wrap and trap. You don't want to finish your targets you want to cripple a couple then stay locked. Neos are so much better at this, you can be happy with pretty much any result as well besides a 3. Even then they can shoot at least. 2o neos with a unit standard is 120, arm with shot guns, on a 5 or 6 your going to assault but first you can shoot 40 S4 shots, then with the suggested support your attacking with another 41 s5 attacks htting on 3's rerolling 1's.
I love the abomanant but I am having the same issues it sounds like others are having, you want him to come in with the aberrants, so if they ambush your never reliable unless you tie the abs to a primus and daisy chain back to the abomanant. Honestly I think the answer is puting him in a chimera with them. You don't want your abs to ambush turn 1 due to the aformentioned screens, you also don't want to wait and risk poor rolls turn 2. Obvious answer seems to be a chimera.
That said, the abomanant hits harder then abs by a mile and he is 4X as resilient. As I said, abs and stealers overkill things as it stands, the abomant just makes the abs turn crushed units into red mist, not worth it usually. Again, have to say, best use is tie an abomanant to neophytes, with unquestioning loyalty hes not going anywhere and he will kill anything big. Mine hit an armiger game two, I min'd my damage rolls 1, 2 and 3 and still stripped 9 wounds, it did nothing back (5's to hit, becomes 2 damage and you ignore it on a 5+ then pass wounds off to scrubs THEN he heals) My idea for my next list is first wave going all in on neophytes, 3 abomanants mixed in and a patriarch (thought about going 3 patriarchs 3 abomanants) A patriarch does the work of an elite unit only he can't be targeted as well.
Anyway, soprry abut the messy post, needed a break from airbrushing and wanted to spill my beans on the RTT. Hit me back with discussion and we can craft some ideas.
Red Corsair wrote: Played a 3 round RTT saturday and learned alot. My list was
Lessons learned, 20 man prestrains and 10 man abberant units are too good. Sounds strange but it's true. They pop in, murder either cheap dispossable crap, or if your lucky a misplaced vanguard type unit, then they die. At 300 points it will never be worth the trade IMO. Consider 20 neophyte with the relic banner and might from beyond + primus will pretty much murder anything anyway, if they don't they have the bodies to wrap and trap. You don't want to finish your targets you want to cripple a couple then stay locked. Neos are so much better at this, you can be happy with pretty much any result as well besides a 3. Even then they can shoot at least. 2o neos with a unit standard is 120, arm with shot guns, on a 5 or 6 your going to assault but first you can shoot 40 S4 shots, then with the suggested support your attacking with another 41 s5 attacks htting on 3's rerolling 1's.
I love the abomanant but I am having the same issues it sounds like others are having, you want him to come in with the aberrants, so if they ambush your never reliable unless you tie the abs to a primus and daisy chain back to the abomanant. Honestly I think the answer is puting him in a chimera with them. You don't want your abs to ambush turn 1 due to the aformentioned screens, you also don't want to wait and risk poor rolls turn 2. Obvious answer seems to be a chimera.
That said, the abomanant hits harder then abs by a mile and he is 4X as resilient. As I said, abs and stealers overkill things as it stands, the abomant just makes the abs turn crushed units into red mist, not worth it usually. Again, have to say, best use is tie an abomanant to neophytes, with unquestioning loyalty hes not going anywhere and he will kill anything big. Mine hit an armiger game two, I min'd my damage rolls 1, 2 and 3 and still stripped 9 wounds, it did nothing back (5's to hit, becomes 2 damage and you ignore it on a 5+ then pass wounds off to scrubs THEN he heals) My idea for my next list is first wave going all in on neophytes, 3 abomanants mixed in and a patriarch (thought about going 3 patriarchs 3 abomanants) A patriarch does the work of an elite unit only he can't be targeted as well.
I agree with you about the 'wrap and trap' ability of Neophytes. I was able to take out one of those Primarus hover tanks and it's valuable crew by ramming it with 2 Rockgrinders and thair Rock-Saw Acolyte Crew. I had wrapped the back end of the tank with a squad of ambushed Neophytes and that was the end of almost 50% of my opponents army, no casualties!
I think it's a very clever idea to hide an Abominant inside big Neophyte squads. The Patriarch adds the extra oompf with the Fearless factor.
Bringing in 20 Neophytes with any of the HQs is a good deal. All the HQs really add something great to the basic Neophyte, depending on the battlefield need.
Yea the more I play the more I realize neophytes should really be the guys ambushing turn 1. There is no result they cannot work with. They are also dirt cheap and have the volume to keep your characters hidden and working.
I expect this to change a bit when acolytes get a cost adjustment though, right now they are just way too pricey. The durability of a guardsmen at 3x the cost lol.
Red Corsair wrote: Yea the more I play the more I realize neophytes should really be the guys ambushing turn 1. There is no result they cannot work with. They are also dirt cheap and have the volume to keep your characters hidden and working.
I expect this to change a bit when acolytes get a cost adjustment though, right now they are just way too pricey. The durability of a guardsmen at 3x the cost lol.
Acolytes are plain overpriced as of now...they are worth 6-7 points per model
Red Corsair wrote: Yea the more I play the more I realize neophytes should really be the guys ambushing turn 1. There is no result they cannot work with. They are also dirt cheap and have the volume to keep your characters hidden and working.
I expect this to change a bit when acolytes get a cost adjustment though, right now they are just way too pricey. The durability of a guardsmen at 3x the cost lol.
Acolytes are plain overpriced as of now...they are worth 6-7 points per model
I'd say more like 8 ppm. I think dropping them to 6 would be too cheap. You got to remember, we are not just going to get cost adjustments, we are also going to gain more free rules essentially when we gain traits and stratagems. Either way we both can agree they are way to pricey currently, which is only made worse by the cost of their upgrades as well. I look forward to running rock drills seriously.
Do you find that 5 Abberants are enough to get the job done? Are you running them for hammers or picks?
Absolutely. As you can guess from Red Corsair's post, 10 Abberants just obliterate anything they touch and then just stand in the open. I run my five guys 2x Picks, 2x Hammers + Hypermorph w/ Improv Weapon. Together with the Abominant they can still crack open pretty much any tank and they will mulch through most units that don't have an invuln. Honestly, the Abominant is a bit too cheap. Any other character would have -1 to-hit with that enormous hammer (unless it is a special relic) and only be S4/T4.
I also find Purestrains not really worth it. First of all the models are pretty ugly and I haven't encoutered a unit yet where I wish I had Purestrains instead of Acolytes.
Red Corsair wrote: Yea the more I play the more I realize neophytes should really be the guys ambushing turn 1. There is no result they cannot work with. They are also dirt cheap and have the volume to keep your characters hidden and working.
I expect this to change a bit when acolytes get a cost adjustment though, right now they are just way too pricey. The durability of a guardsmen at 3x the cost lol.
Acolytes are plain overpriced as of now...they are worth 6-7 points per model
I'd say more like 8 ppm. I think dropping them to 6 would be too cheap. You got to remember, we are not just going to get cost adjustments, we are also going to gain more free rules essentially when we gain traits and stratagems. Either way we both can agree they are way to pricey currently, which is only made worse by the cost of their upgrades as well. I look forward to running rock drills seriously.
It doesn't make sense to get Acolytes at 8 pts since they are strictly comparable to Ork Boyz which cost 6 points.
Whatever you said about the upgraded rules in the Codex doesn't matter, DE had their troops reduced by few points with the codex release (and it gave them huge bonuses)
Acolytes are 7 pts in KT and really good (Neophytes are still 5). Worth mentioning. Different game though but not wildly.
Purestrains should be able to wrap most things guys. Just use your charge move to put enough Stealers in range to kill roughly 80%-90% of their squad, keep the rest just out, and then consolidate around the survivors.
Red Corsair wrote: Yea the more I play the more I realize neophytes should really be the guys ambushing turn 1. There is no result they cannot work with. They are also dirt cheap and have the volume to keep your characters hidden and working.
I expect this to change a bit when acolytes get a cost adjustment though, right now they are just way too pricey. The durability of a guardsmen at 3x the cost lol.
Acolytes are plain overpriced as of now...they are worth 6-7 points per model
I'd say more like 8 ppm. I think dropping them to 6 would be too cheap. You got to remember, we are not just going to get cost adjustments, we are also going to gain more free rules essentially when we gain traits and stratagems. Either way we both can agree they are way to pricey currently, which is only made worse by the cost of their upgrades as well. I look forward to running rock drills seriously.
It doesn't make sense to get Acolytes at 8 pts since they are strictly comparable to Ork Boyz which cost 6 points.
Whatever you said about the upgraded rules in the Codex doesn't matter, DE had their troops reduced by few points with the codex release (and it gave them huge bonuses)
hardly comparable to an ork boy IMO. We lack T sure but we get higher LD, better BS, better armor, cult ambush, unquestioning loyalty AND our base attack is min ap -1 and potentially ap-4. That doesn't even factor the 4x as much gear that is all useful. 6 points would be absolutely silly. Acolytes were 8 ppm in 7th and I was finding them broken then lol. I honestly hope they don't drop them that much, I shelved my DE recently because they over buffed that book. Having too easy a path sucks worse then a hard one IMHO. But again, I don't want to derail the thread arguing semantics when we clearly both agree they need a cost reduction as 11ppm is absolutely idiotic. If kill team has them at 7ppm then that is probably what they will cost in the end, will have to wait and see how that pans out, but it will absolutely kill the small urge there is now to consider purestrains, why bother when an acolyte is less then half the price?
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SHUPPET wrote: Acolytes are 7 pts in KT and really good (Neophytes are still 5). Worth mentioning. Different game though but not wildly.
Purestrains should be able to wrap most things guys. Just use your charge move to put enough Stealers in range to kill roughly 80%-90% of their squad, keep the rest just out, and then consolidate around the survivors.
Wrap and trap is a funny one for me. Makes NO sense to pay for such efficiency if your going to intentionally kneecap your offense in order to under kill your potential. At that point your better off taking something else that kills just the right amount and costs way less. Thats why I am leaning toward shotgun neophytes with the same character support and spells you would use on purestrains. Consider 20 shotgun neos with a banner are 120pts (which I would bet is reduced to 110 since the banner is way too high) and near the same buffs, primus, relic banner and might from beyond they are hitting most targets at s5 with 2 swings each hitting on 3's rerolling 1's and they can shotgun something else on the way in. Thats pretty efficient, your talking almost 1/3 what purestrains cost.
I will also echo that I think the abomanant is way too cheap, he eliminated the reason to take abberants lol. Why bother when he does similar work to 5 hammer abbs for yet again 1/3 the cost PLUS he is way more durable then those 5 abs. This guy standing next to a brick of neophytes is absurdly durable, he seems decent on paper but trust me he is better then you may think. I think this guy is your hidden AT. If taking abberants I am sticking to picks.
Codex speculation: Going by every other single faction army release (space wolves, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, etc) we’ll probably get one pretty nice universal rule for everyone. Stuff like rerolling all 1’s and +1 to wound are very strong, and Orks with their universal DakkaDakka rule are...not as good but still decent. What special rule does everyone think we’ll get?
I wanna say a mini version of synapse. Maybe instead of ignoring morale we lose a max of one guy around HQs.
I wanna say a mini version of synapse. Maybe instead of ignoring morale we lose a max of one guy around HQs.
That would kind of suck, lol. Our units mostly have Guardsmen level of survivability. So when they get shot at or charged they simply die. There just isn't anything left that could flee from morale. And even if he just kills 6 of my 10 Neophytes (and only 1 flees) those remaining 3 dudes won't do anything.
Red Corsair wrote: Yea the more I play the more I realize neophytes should really be the guys ambushing turn 1. There is no result they cannot work with. They are also dirt cheap and have the volume to keep your characters hidden and working.
I expect this to change a bit when acolytes get a cost adjustment though, right now they are just way too pricey. The durability of a guardsmen at 3x the cost lol.
Acolytes are plain overpriced as of now...they are worth 6-7 points per model
I'd say more like 8 ppm. I think dropping them to 6 would be too cheap. You got to remember, we are not just going to get cost adjustments, we are also going to gain more free rules essentially when we gain traits and stratagems. Either way we both can agree they are way to pricey currently, which is only made worse by the cost of their upgrades as well. I look forward to running rock drills seriously.
It doesn't make sense to get Acolytes at 8 pts since they are strictly comparable to Ork Boyz which cost 6 points.
Whatever you said about the upgraded rules in the Codex doesn't matter, DE had their troops reduced by few points with the codex release (and it gave them huge bonuses)
hardly comparable to an ork boy IMO. We lack T sure but we get higher LD, better BS, better armor, cult ambush, unquestioning loyalty AND our base attack is min ap -1 and potentially ap-4. That doesn't even factor the 4x as much gear that is all useful. 6 points would be absolutely silly. Acolytes were 8 ppm in 7th and I was finding them broken then lol. I honestly hope they don't drop them that much, I shelved my DE recently because they over buffed that book. Having too easy a path sucks worse then a hard one IMHO. But again, I don't want to derail the thread arguing semantics when we clearly both agree they need a cost reduction as 11ppm is absolutely idiotic. If kill team has them at 7ppm then that is probably what they will cost in the end, will have to wait and see how that pans out, but it will absolutely kill the small urge there is now to consider purestrains, why bother when an acolyte is less then half the price?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SHUPPET wrote: Acolytes are 7 pts in KT and really good (Neophytes are still 5). Worth mentioning. Different game though but not wildly.
Purestrains should be able to wrap most things guys. Just use your charge move to put enough Stealers in range to kill roughly 80%-90% of their squad, keep the rest just out, and then consolidate around the survivors.
Wrap and trap is a funny one for me. Makes NO sense to pay for such efficiency if your going to intentionally kneecap your offense in order to under kill your potential. At that point your better off taking something else that kills just the right amount and costs way less. Thats why I am leaning toward shotgun neophytes with the same character support and spells you would use on purestrains. Consider 20 shotgun neos with a banner are 120pts (which I would bet is reduced to 110 since the banner is way too high) and near the same buffs, primus, relic banner and might from beyond they are hitting most targets at s5 with 2 swings each hitting on 3's rerolling 1's and they can shotgun something else on the way in. Thats pretty efficient, your talking almost 1/3 what purestrains cost.
The thing is, sometimes you'll want that extra killing power, sometimes you won't. You can assault multiple groups at once with Genestealer and still come out on top, this forces your opponent to spread, or have that happen, and you can keep that very potent threat around by wrapping things up. Also, your CC unit will inevitably get thinned out, and 10 Neophytes does a lot less on it's own than 10 Genestealers. Also, when you factor in the points you're dedicating to giving those neophytes Might and two banners, you basically have the cost of a Stealer squad anyway.
I just don't think it's that black and white, and I think Purestrains are still great.
Don't get me wrong purestrains are amazing, but my finding is they are too amazing. Also note that 120 point shotgun squad was not 10 man it was 20. so your still 30pts cheaper then 10 stealers. You can tie down a lot more units with 20 models then 10. 10 stealers pumps out 40 attacks so long as one soesn't drop to overwatch, but the 20 shotgun neos shoots 40 then punches 21 more lol.
Again, I haven't heard a great argument as to why I should bother paying the price tag for a unit as efficient as stealers, if in order to make them work I need to keep most of them outside combat. It isn't as if they can't counter your plan easily, they just assault a walker or transport into the extreme flank of that stealer blob and continue to keep them pinned back in your own turn again. I've done it to others and had it done to me.
Don't get me wrong, I still think we need hammer type units, but thats where I think the abomanant and aberrants come in. a 5 man team of pick abbs is more resilient, can ride in a transport and still out kills most units. Also note that this is all my conclusions based on the current state, if they give us the enevitable fight twice stratagem for stealers or some way to spring them up more reliably etc etc along with point shifts then this all goes back into the mixing bowl.
As it stands though, most people are using GEQ for infantry and the best unit to combat GEQ is sadly other GEQ. We have a high leadership guardsmen unit that gets to alpha and- spring onto objectives all over the table, which is really strong.
Maybe it is because I play Catachan guard as well, it isn't intuitive to think guardsmen or cultist can kill things well in assault, but yet they really can.
Red Corsair wrote: Don't get me wrong purestrains are amazing, but my finding is they are too amazing. Also note that 120 point shotgun squad was not 10 man it was 20. so your still 30pts cheaper then 10 stealers. You can tie down a lot more units with 20 models then 10. 10 stealers pumps out 40 attacks so long as one soesn't drop to overwatch, but the 20 shotgun neos shoots 40 then punches 21 more lol.
Again, I haven't heard a great argument as to why I should bother paying the price tag for a unit as efficient as stealers, if in order to make them work I need to keep most of them outside combat. It isn't as if they can't counter your plan easily, they just assault a walker or transport into the extreme flank of that stealer blob and continue to keep them pinned back in your own turn again. I've done it to others and had it done to me.
Don't get me wrong, I still think we need hammer type units, but thats where I think the abomanant and aberrants come in. a 5 man team of pick abbs is more resilient, can ride in a transport and still out kills most units. Also note that this is all my conclusions based on the current state, if they give us the enevitable fight twice stratagem for stealers or some way to spring them up more reliably etc etc along with point shifts then this all goes back into the mixing bowl.
As it stands though, most people are using GEQ for infantry and the best unit to combat GEQ is sadly other GEQ. We have a high leadership guardsmen unit that gets to alpha and- spring onto objectives all over the table, which is really strong.
Maybe it is because I play Catachan guard as well, it isn't intuitive to think guardsmen or cultist can kill things well in assault, but yet they really can.
No no, I meant say when the unit is thinned out, you take more than 10 of both to begin with but they've taken some casualties, and say 10 remain in each squad. The Stealers remain a relevant threat for much longer than the Neophytes and require much less support to do so, was my point.
Anyways I respect your opinion, I just think both are good. Also, in a month or two when we started seeing armies with over 100 boyz in it, I'm thinking Purestrains might look a lot better. Soundly killing 40 Boyz before they can swing back is gonna be legit.
I’d still rather just ally in some Kraken Genestealers. Gives you more boots on the ground for the ambushers, they’re troops, cheaper, more options, etc etc.
Red Corsair wrote: Yea the more I play the more I realize neophytes should really be the guys ambushing turn 1. There is no result they cannot work with. They are also dirt cheap and have the volume to keep your characters hidden and working.
I expect this to change a bit when acolytes get a cost adjustment though, right now they are just way too pricey. The durability of a guardsmen at 3x the cost lol.
Acolytes are plain overpriced as of now...they are worth 6-7 points per model
I'd say more like 8 ppm. I think dropping them to 6 would be too cheap. You got to remember, we are not just going to get cost adjustments, we are also going to gain more free rules essentially when we gain traits and stratagems. Either way we both can agree they are way to pricey currently, which is only made worse by the cost of their upgrades as well. I look forward to running rock drills seriously.
It doesn't make sense to get Acolytes at 8 pts since they are strictly comparable to Ork Boyz which cost 6 points.
Whatever you said about the upgraded rules in the Codex doesn't matter, DE had their troops reduced by few points with the codex release (and it gave them huge bonuses)
hardly comparable to an ork boy IMO. We lack T sure but we get higher LD, better BS, better armor, cult ambush, unquestioning loyalty AND our base attack is min ap -1 and potentially ap-4. That doesn't even factor the 4x as much gear that is all useful. 6 points would be absolutely silly. Acolytes were 8 ppm in 7th and I was finding them broken then lol. I honestly hope they don't drop them that much, I shelved my DE recently because they over buffed that book. Having too easy a path sucks worse then a hard one IMHO. But again, I don't want to derail the thread arguing semantics when we clearly both agree they need a cost reduction as 11ppm is absolutely idiotic. If kill team has them at 7ppm then that is probably what they will cost in the end, will have to wait and see how that pans out, but it will absolutely kill the small urge there is now to consider purestrains, why bother when an acolyte is less then half the price?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SHUPPET wrote: Acolytes are 7 pts in KT and really good (Neophytes are still 5). Worth mentioning. Different game though but not wildly.
Purestrains should be able to wrap most things guys. Just use your charge move to put enough Stealers in range to kill roughly 80%-90% of their squad, keep the rest just out, and then consolidate around the survivors.
Wrap and trap is a funny one for me. Makes NO sense to pay for such efficiency if your going to intentionally kneecap your offense in order to under kill your potential. At that point your better off taking something else that kills just the right amount and costs way less. Thats why I am leaning toward shotgun neophytes with the same character support and spells you would use on purestrains. Consider 20 shotgun neos with a banner are 120pts (which I would bet is reduced to 110 since the banner is way too high) and near the same buffs, primus, relic banner and might from beyond they are hitting most targets at s5 with 2 swings each hitting on 3's rerolling 1's and they can shotgun something else on the way in. Thats pretty efficient, your talking almost 1/3 what purestrains cost.
I will also echo that I think the abomanant is way too cheap, he eliminated the reason to take abberants lol. Why bother when he does similar work to 5 hammer abbs for yet again 1/3 the cost PLUS he is way more durable then those 5 abs. This guy standing next to a brick of neophytes is absurdly durable, he seems decent on paper but trust me he is better then you may think. I think this guy is your hidden AT. If taking abberants I am sticking to picks.
1) Higher LD -> False, Orks LD is mostly irrelevant and based off Unit Size/Nearby Units Size
2) Better BS is offset by having a S3 gun whilst Orks have a S4 one.
3) Toughness 4 and 6+ is almost identical to Toughness 3 5+ for most anti-infantry guns so not really a "plus" to have a 5+ Armor
4) Cult Ambush is the equivalent of 'Ere we Go and Unquestioning Loyalty is as useful as the new "Dakka Dakka Dakka" rule all Orks get
5) Our base attack is AP -1 but Orks have twice the attacks. Fine for both
The exact price for an Acolyte is between 6 and 7 points, having it being more expensive is a death sentence for the playability of such unit; also the comparison between 7TH and 8TH is nonsense: Acolytes had 4 attacks on charge in the previous edition and 3-4 more rules that made them super tanky for the price and capable of dishing insane damage per model whilst it's really not the case in 8TH
Red Corsair wrote: Don't get me wrong purestrains are amazing, but my finding is they are too amazing. Also note that 120 point shotgun squad was not 10 man it was 20. so your still 30pts cheaper then 10 stealers. You can tie down a lot more units with 20 models then 10. 10 stealers pumps out 40 attacks so long as one soesn't drop to overwatch, but the 20 shotgun neos shoots 40 then punches 21 more lol.
Again, I haven't heard a great argument as to why I should bother paying the price tag for a unit as efficient as stealers, if in order to make them work I need to keep most of them outside combat. It isn't as if they can't counter your plan easily, they just assault a walker or transport into the extreme flank of that stealer blob and continue to keep them pinned back in your own turn again. I've done it to others and had it done to me.
Don't get me wrong, I still think we need hammer type units, but thats where I think the abomanant and aberrants come in. a 5 man team of pick abbs is more resilient, can ride in a transport and still out kills most units. Also note that this is all my conclusions based on the current state, if they give us the enevitable fight twice stratagem for stealers or some way to spring them up more reliably etc etc along with point shifts then this all goes back into the mixing bowl.
As it stands though, most people are using GEQ for infantry and the best unit to combat GEQ is sadly other GEQ. We have a high leadership guardsmen unit that gets to alpha and- spring onto objectives all over the table, which is really strong.
Maybe it is because I play Catachan guard as well, it isn't intuitive to think guardsmen or cultist can kill things well in assault, but yet they really can.
No no, I meant say when the unit is thinned out, you take more than 10 of both to begin with but they've taken some casualties, and say 10 remain in each squad. The Stealers remain a relevant threat for much longer than the Neophytes and require much less support to do so, was my point.
Anyways I respect your opinion, I just think both are good. Also, in a month or two when we started seeing armies with over 100 boyz in it, I'm thinking Purestrains might look a lot better. Soundly killing 40 Boyz before they can swing back is gonna be legit.
Ah I see what you mean now. Mutual respect as well, and I am betting your right on the ork front. It's also worth mentioning that metas are varied. In mine you see droves of chaf. Basically 6 point or less models for days. It really sucks trading genestealers for chaf, but thats life.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @KurtAngel I already told you I wasn't going to play rules developer with you. We have mutual agreement that they need a point decrease, by how much is totally irrelevant in the end since neither of us are in any place to make the changes. So why argue the subjective semantics? We agree they need a cut in price, we disagree by how much. I like having a challenge in my games so I'd rather the price cuts be kept conservative, that's my own opinion on balance. I hate what they did to my DE, they play themselves now which is boring and bad for mutual enjoyment on both sides of the table.
Telling someone their point is nonesense is not a valid counter argument either. Try being a bit amicable.
I think it probably is the better choice to go Neophytes. Im not going for the Iconward because FNP is whatever when it's for a single unit, same with the +1S, especially when you're already ideally at S4 due to Might, the difference S5 brings is one of the least relevant Strength differences in the game, and the Iconward is just another moving piece and extra cost to a unit who's main advantage is being cheap. I might consider a Patriarch though, fearless Neophytes are sick and he can help pay for himself with his sharp sharp claws. That being said, I'm only running a small GSC battalion detachment in my Nids army, so maybe for GSC mains the Iconward is a bit prettier.
I'm going to be taking 20 Neophytes with shotties and a banner as well. I feel like you're probably right that Neophytes are better at this right now, and are more flexible for the role, the saved points let you bring more things in the rest of your army. Purestrains are still very good though. We'll see if the meta encourages them more after FAQ, CA, and everyone has a codex.
The big FAQ/Errata is released. Only minor clarifications/updates in the GSC section of Index Xenos 2:
Page 112
– A Deadly Trap
Change the second sentence of this Cult Ambush result
to read:
‘It can either move D6" even though it has just arrived
as reinforcements, or shoot with all of its ranged
weapons as if it were the Shooting phase (doing so does
not prevent it from shooting in the Shooting phase or
charging in the Charge phase of this turn).’
Q: If, in a matched play game, I use the Return to the Shadows
Stratagem to remove one of my Genestealer Cult units from the
battlefield during the fourth battle round, are they considered to
be destroyed because of the Tactical Reserves matched play rule?
A: No.
Automatically Appended Next Post: More interesting though, we have lost the excemption from the TACTICAL RESERVES beta rule. And that rule is still in beta, but has been changed.
Bad part: We are no longer allowed to cult ambush during turn one.
Good part: Our codex is on it's way.
"We have also removed the exemption that Genestealer Cults had in the previous beta version of this rule – rest assured this has been taken into account for Codex: Genestealer Cults, which is currently in development"
The rule for deploying half the army on the table is now counted on points.
Also, some changes to command point gain, so AM is not quite as powerful as a CP-battery.
I was hoping for clear faq for mind control and shooting a McD unit at characters. I have no major issues with any of the changes nearly no effect on my other armies(tyranid or guard) and makeing me wait till turn 2 I think will stop me from jumping the gun and make me more tactical with my ambushes.
I do not take solice in this phrasing: "...rest assured this has been taken into account for Codex: Genestealer Cults, which is currently in development."
How long does it take to print these things? Presumably it has to be at the printers very, very, very soon for a November release.
Caspian89 wrote:I finally finished the Power Lifter pieces for my Sentinel models. I magnetized some Killa Kan arms and painted them suitably to match the other mining weapons. I think it does the job well and the bits are not expensive. Now to field these little ankle biters.
[/img]
Very nice work! The one with the drill arm reminds me of the old Lego Granite Grinder set:
Spoiler:
Badablack wrote:Codex speculation: Going by every other single faction army release (space wolves, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, etc) we’ll probably get one pretty nice universal rule for everyone. Stuff like rerolling all 1’s and +1 to wound are very strong, and Orks with their universal DakkaDakka rule are...not as good but still decent. What special rule does everyone think we’ll get?
We technically already have two such rules in Cult Ambush and Unquestioning Loyalty. I'm hoping they will do sub-faction rules for the major cults, since they have already given an example of at least one (Pauper Princes) that has expanded operations far beyond its original world .
SHUPPET wrote:I think it probably is the better choice to go Neophytes. Im not going for the Iconward because FNP is whatever when it's for a single unit, same with the +1S, especially when you're already ideally at S4 due to Might, the difference S5 brings is one of the least relevant Strength differences in the game, and the Iconward is just another moving piece and extra cost to a unit who's main advantage is being cheap. I might consider a Patriarch though, fearless Neophytes are sick and he can help pay for himself with his sharp sharp claws. That being said, I'm only running a small GSC battalion detachment in my Nids army, so maybe for GSC mains the Iconward is a bit prettier.
My general experience has been that the Iconward pairs well with Neophytes due to the moral reroll bubble more than FNP. While the Patriarch can make units completely immune to moral, he also costs three times as much as an Iconward. Almost all GSC squads have LD8, so assuming 10-man units they have to be down to 1 guy before moral is impossible to pass. A 20 strong unit can make the case for a Patriarch, but for the little 10-man units an Iconward is sufficient for most moral purposes.
Also I am starting to really like Shotgun Neophytes now that I've amassed ~30 of them. They generally want to be close anyway for bubble wrap purposes and the extra strength is a huge benefit against both GEQ and MEQ infantry. Plus they don't need special or want heavy weapons, so they are cheap, mobile, and disposable.
Mellon wrote:
Page 112
– A Deadly Trap
Change the second sentence of this Cult Ambush result
to read:
‘It can either move D6" even though it has just arrived
as reinforcements, or shoot with all of its ranged
weapons as if it were the Shooting phase (doing so does
not prevent it from shooting in the Shooting phase or
charging in the Charge phase of this turn).’
Good addition, it insures that there should not be any confusion about being able to use the movement aspect of Cult Ambush despite the modifications to reserve rules (Result 6 already had that wording).
Mellon wrote:
Q: If, in a matched play game, I use the Return to the Shadows
Stratagem to remove one of my Genestealer Cult units from the
battlefield during the fourth battle round, are they considered to
be destroyed because of the Tactical Reserves matched play rule?
A: No.
They had already made similar rulings with the Mawloc's Burrow ability and the Swooping Hawks Skyleap ability, but it is nice to have it specifically spelled out.
Mellon wrote:
More interesting though, we have lost the excemption from the TACTICAL RESERVES beta rule. And that rule is still in beta, but has been changed.
Bad part: We are no longer allowed to cult ambush during turn one.
Good part: Our codex is on it's way.
This is unfortunate but I don't think it is an entirely insurmountable nerf. In most of my games lately I've been holding back ambushes until turn 2 so the ambushing elements can meet up with my mechanized troops for threat saturation. It does kill pure GSC foot lists though. Without turn 1 forward deployment it is going to be really hard to get good positioning and the army is too expensive to run as an attrition-minded horde that walks up the table.
Mellon wrote:
The rule for deploying half the army on the table is now counted on points.
This is a nice change. Most of the PL values for the army are horrifically inflated so this is a net gain as far as the number of ambushers that can be used in matched play. It does mean one can't abuse 11-strong Neophyte units or 6 strong Aberrant squads as ambush batteries, but I like the change.
Mellon wrote:
Also, some changes to command point gain, so AM is not quite as powerful as a CP-battery.
I do like this change. Combined with the stratagem cost increases it should put an end to the Blood Angel + Imperial Knight + AM Battery lists, as the key components required a constant stream of command points to function. Doesn't really hurt GSC much since both of our unique stratagems are 1 CP and we already liked taking a GSC warlord to get access to the Icon of the Cult Ascendant relic (can still get the Aquilla via the AM stratagem).
Also worth noting, the Tyranid Feeder Tendrils stratagem was specifically exempt from this alteration. We already are happy to borrow Hive Fleet Genestealers so it is worth keeping the stratagem in mind if an opportunity presents itself.
I'll update the main post with the new information.
So I just realized a thing. Our CA warlord trait allows units within 3" of the warlord to perform a heroic intervention. The FAQ states you don't have to be charged in your opponents turn to perform a heroic intervention. So it's possible for us to chain multiple units near our warlord and they can all pile into enemies within 3" of any of them which creates a lot more board control, especially if you have them on the back foot trying to fall back from you in their deployment zone.
Away from my CA so maybe someone can check and see if I am missing part of the wording since I never use it.
So since they are planning for GSC to work around no first turn ambushes anymore, I can only speculate what they are planning to do. I may be shortsighted, but I can't shake the feeling that it's going to be the same stuff available but you pay CP for the first turn option or something. And maybe like, Purestrains lowered to Tyranid Stealer costs to try balance it out. All pure speculation of course.
As it stands, I was planning on buying 3 Abominants today. Glad I didn't. I'll stick with Hive Guard for now thanks.
I appreciate the FAQ changes and how GW are trying to fix the game but why if the GSC codex is in development have the decided to massively nerf the faction now.
I was about the only player left still taking GSC to majors and thats out the window now. Were they really so dominant they needed their entire gimmick thrown out?
As it stands for me my whole army concept is dead and buried with the removal of the deep strike intervention (I don't necessarily bum rush turn one but if I go second I certainly cant take two turns of shooting with my holding force before my ambush comes in vs any well put together gunline.)
Would it have been too much to let GSC retain their exemption until the codex then bring in those rules instead?
I’m definitely taking fortifications now. For killpoints games at least, there’s no reason not to just turtle in a 2+ T9 20 wound building first turn and let them come to you.
Sneggy wrote: I appreciate the FAQ changes and how GW are trying to fix the game but why if the GSC codex is in development have the decided to massively nerf the faction now.
I was about the only player left still taking GSC to majors and thats out the window now. Were they really so dominant they needed their entire gimmick thrown out?
As it stands for me my whole army concept is dead and buried with the removal of the deep strike intervention (I don't necessarily bum rush turn one but if I go second I certainly cant take two turns of shooting with my holding force before my ambush comes in vs any well put together gunline.)
Would it have been too much to let GSC retain their exemption until the codex then bring in those rules instead?
It's pretty crappy, but I guess they're looking at the bigger picture and deciding that they will do what they need to on release and not have any currently written exceptions getting in the way that they then have to overwrite again for potentially the 4th time in the space of a year. I think GSC is very low tier army as it stands now though.
Sneggy wrote: I appreciate the FAQ changes and how GW are trying to fix the game but why if the GSC codex is in development have the decided to massively nerf the faction now.
I was about the only player left still taking GSC to majors and thats out the window now. Were they really so dominant they needed their entire gimmick thrown out?
As it stands for me my whole army concept is dead and buried with the removal of the deep strike intervention (I don't necessarily bum rush turn one but if I go second I certainly cant take two turns of shooting with my holding force before my ambush comes in vs any well put together gunline.)
Would it have been too much to let GSC retain their exemption until the codex then bring in those rules instead?
Well honestly, if they are planning on taking away the cult ambush table (which I think will happen) then who cares if they do it now or in a few months. I'd rather get used to playing without it. My guess is along with shuppets. They CLEARLY do not want turn 1 assaults to go off all over the table, and are even trying to mitigate all first turn alpha strikes. I would also bet on a generic 1cp per unit stratagem that gives us a free redeploy up the board like all the other infiltration stratagems turned into.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh also I checked CA, our warlord trait simply gives units within 6" the ability to heroically intervene so yes we can exploit that FAQ ruling, that said it is a bit situational.
Sneggy wrote: I appreciate the FAQ changes and how GW are trying to fix the game but why if the GSC codex is in development have the decided to massively nerf the faction now.
I was about the only player left still taking GSC to majors and thats out the window now. Were they really so dominant they needed their entire gimmick thrown out?
As it stands for me my whole army concept is dead and buried with the removal of the deep strike intervention (I don't necessarily bum rush turn one but if I go second I certainly cant take two turns of shooting with my holding force before my ambush comes in vs any well put together gunline.)
Would it have been too much to let GSC retain their exemption until the codex then bring in those rules instead?
Well honestly, if they are planning on taking away the cult ambush table (which I think will happen) then who cares if they do it now or in a few months. I'd rather get used to playing without it. My guess is along with shuppets. They CLEARLY do not want turn 1 assaults to go off all over the table, and are even trying to mitigate all first turn alpha strikes. I would also bet on a generic 1cp per unit stratagem that gives us a free redeploy up the board like all the other infiltration stratagems turned into.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh also I checked CA, our warlord trait simply gives units within 6" the ability to heroically intervene so yes we can exploit that FAQ ruling, that said it is a bit situational.
seeing as they never touch Da Jump turn 1 bomb I can see GSC getting something similar to that, maybe in a strategem. something like: at the end of your movement phase instead of moving take 1 GSC infantry unit on the table and set it anywhere on the table more then 9 inches away from enemy units. Maybe even limit it to only appearing near cover
Maybe we will get a stratagem that recycles a unit like tide of traitors, who knows. I wouldn't read much into Da Jump though, that book has been in a massive overhaul as well and comes out any week now so why bother FAQ ing it now when the book will get one 2 weeks after it finally hits.
Losing first turn ambushes sucks but honestly most of my ambushing was on turn 2 anyway since I waited for my opponent to move his stuff so that I could exploit an opening.
I also really like the Cover stratagem. Now our Goliaths actually have a 3+ save and I can deploy my Neophytes a bit more forward even if there isn't any terrain.
I wonder if we'll get separate cults with army rules, and one of them might just be "can still first turn ambush". Allowing the army to play how it always has but also letting you trade out for something else
or maybe it's just gone for good. Would absolutely suck if our army rule was "unreliable deepstrike" however, and it seems unlikely they will just toss the ambush table since it's the most iconic thing about the army's playstyle.
I’d say the most iconic thing is fragile troops with deadly serious melee weapons. No one cares that a bunch of guardsmen popped next to them up until the drills start revving.
Just played a 1000pts game vs Eldar and I have to say we are still good with our remaining trick the 4+ wound shunt to mooks. I ambushed in a prime and a squad of 20 neos to harass the enemy main leader blob inc a wrathlord 3 psykers and an atarach and with backup from my patriarch a magus and a reambushing 10 neo squad a turn later, I just destroyed them. WE also have the most resilient HQ's vs the Knight character hunter missiles with familars in the game. Really looking forward to our codex if this is our low point.
Honestly just lower the cost of units, give us some decent strats/relics/powers, and a way to better manipulate our main gimmick (ambushing) and GSC would be in a good place. I wouldn’t mind more options for fast attack and heavy though, there’s a ton of Imperium units we could steal and brigades are a pain to do currently.
Badablack wrote: Honestly just lower the cost of units, give us some decent strats/relics/powers, and a way to better manipulate our main gimmick (ambushing) and GSC would be in a good place. I wouldn’t mind more options for fast attack and heavy though, there’s a ton of Imperium units we could steal and brigades are a pain to do currently.
Yeah, it feels like we are a glass cannon but too much glass.
I'm not a big fan of trading our identity as an army for point reductions, so hopefully we get some crazy unique gak and not just copy paste stratagems.
I tried a game earlier today using a test list with all the faq stuff. Ran it with all GSC infantry (neophytes, acolytes and aberrants), a Kraken detachment full of genestealers, and 3 Plasma Obliterator fortifications.
Played a full tourney eldar list, the full shebang with a ton of dark reapers, flamethrower jets, and shining spears. I predictably lost, but it was actually pretty close. I started with all my guys either in reserve or in fortifications, and went second so I popped the cover stratagem on the buildings. He predictably blew up all 3 Obliterators over the course of 2 turns, but the contents remained safe and I actually took out a bunch of shining spears and messed up a jet from explosion results.
Highlight of the game was a 10-man aberrant squad and 10 acolytes with drills both getting 6’s and starting next to his big dark reaper camp, wiping everything out. (They all died the next turn.)
I wouldn't mind some copied stratagems. Like a "shoot twice" stratagem. Imagine that + a 5 on the ambush table. That's three times a Neophyte squad would get to shoot.
weaver9 wrote: When you guys ally do you tend to go heavier on tyranids, or IG? What types of units do you grab from each?
I'll try to summarise the advice that I believe is usually given regarding AM with GSC. In short. You are looking for things that will cover up the weaknesses in GSC. So things that shoot well, or things that survive well.
One thing that both survives and shoots are Leman Russes, including tank commanders. Popular versions are the regular battlecannon, the Punisher and the Conqueror. They also get Objective Secured if they are taken in a Spearhed detachment.
AM have cheap infantry, and thanks to orders they can be quite flexible.
Basilisks and Manticores are good for longrange fire.
Lots of command points is another AM specialty. 2 commanders, 3 squads of infantry and Kurovs Aquila is a good combo.
Bullgryns (maybe with an Astropath) and Sentinel Powerlifters are two great assault units that survive better than our assaut units. For the sentinels you want to use the stratagem Crush Them.
Artemia pattern Hellhounds are also good fire magnets that can complement our melee units well. Beware that they explode quite easily when destroyed, so charge them into enemies a bit away from your units.
120 autogun shots (you are in RFR after ambushing). And who plays his 20 Neos with only Autoguns? Add in GLs and SCs and they could actually kill a good chunk of infantry. On average that would kill 10 MEQ, 23 GEQ or about 20 Ork Boys etc. Not bad for essentially Guardsmen with industrial mining gear.
Yea I have been having the most success recently using mainly neophytes. They perform well in any situation for their points. They are by far the best unit to ambush. Currently the best two units in the book aside from characters are the neophytes and the Aberrant. I'd say the best characters are the Magus and the Abomanant, Primus is nice to have for that reliable ambush when you really need a result but more often then not the other two are really pulling their weight.
Red Corsair wrote: Yea I have been having the most success recently using mainly neophytes. They perform well in any situation for their points. They are by far the best unit to ambush. Currently the best two units in the book aside from characters are the neophytes and the Aberrant. I'd say the best characters are the Magus and the Abomanant, Primus is nice to have for that reliable ambush when you really need a result but more often then not the other two are really pulling their weight.
For a 20man Shotgun Neophyte bomb, it's probably not worth even spending the points on a Primus right? Just use the Strat seems good enough?
Hey all, was wondering if i could get some advice on what to add to my army in the future.
I currently have the GSC half of DW:Overkill (3x acolytes converted to have heavy weapons), 5x Metamorphs, a Leman Russ, and about 20 Guardsmen my friend lets me borrow.
I'm about to purchase Tooth and Claw as it seems a good deal, but that only leaves me with a less than optimal 2k point list.
I was thinking of picking up a couple Rockgrinders and a couple boxes of neophytes maybe? I'd like to stay mono GSC if possible.
Causalis wrote: I wouldn't mind some copied stratagems. Like a "shoot twice" stratagem. Imagine that + a 5 on the ambush table. That's three times a Neophyte squad would get to shoot.
I imagine a fight twice strat would be in the cards as well.
Kharne the Befriender wrote: Hey all, was wondering if i could get some advice on what to add to my army in the future.
I currently have the GSC half of DW:Overkill (3x acolytes converted to have heavy weapons), 5x Metamorphs, a Leman Russ, and about 20 Guardsmen my friend lets me borrow.
I'm about to purchase Tooth and Claw as it seems a good deal, but that only leaves me with a less than optimal 2k point list.
I was thinking of picking up a couple Rockgrinders and a couple boxes of neophytes maybe? I'd like to stay mono GSC if possible.
Hey and welcome to the cult!
First of all, anything can change once we get our codex, and that might happen this year. So maybe you want to hold up with any big purchases.
That said, if we look at current state:
Staying mono GSC is a bit of a handicap, but it is a choice that I highly respect!
The T&C box is good value. Aberrants and the abominant are really good.
Rockgrinders are indeed fun and _very_ good looking. Unfortunately they are a bit expensive in points.
Neophytes are great. You can always have more of them.
I'd suggest getting some more genestealers to make them into a big unit.
I like to have two primus for more precision ambushes. Have them escort aberrants, genestealers or acolytes with heavy weapons. Depending on what you are fighting against.
One or two more Leman Russ maybe. Running only a single vehicle makes it the only target for enemy anti tank, so it will die fast.
Definitely not winning any competitive matches but it looks decent?
That looks more than decent, and fun to play as well.
And yeah, you could buy another 8-pack of genestealers to get them to 18. They gain an extra attack at 10+ models, and with a big unit it takes some dedication from the enemy to bring them under that treshold.
My big problem with Goliath Trucks is the Chimera feels so much better. A Chimera has smoke launchers, higher transport capacity and better guns in the form of flamers (hitting on a 5+ with an autocannon is a big oof).
I want trucks to be good as they're so cool, hopefully they'll get some buffs in the codex (or we will get something worth putting in them that can take advantage of open-topped). Also, I hope we get the track guards and other wargear for the chimera to match the IG version
I have made the experience that the Truck is alright as a driving "bunker" for my Neophytes. All my other Neophytes are often dead on turn 3 since they die like flies even in cover. So the Truck does have his place as a shooting platform.
The problem is just that it is still way too expensive and that its guns are currently almost worthless. I hope it gets either significantly cheaper or a bit cheaper and ignores the penalty for moving and shooting.
Having a Rockgrinder in sub-assemblies right now, I can definitely say it's a cool model and I'm likely going to end up with 10 of the trucks regardless (between the two varients), but there is definitely to be said for the Chimera too. That said, I plan on painting all my IG vehicles the same utilitarian grey as the Goliaths because it makes more sense for the PDF of a Hive World than Cadian camo colours.
Then again I'm a hobby idiot who tends to play counter meta more by accident than by intent so let's not get too hung up on that.
With the change to reserves I feel like a stronger table presence (at least at deployment, we can always take a unit on the table off the table turn 1 to increase our turn 2 ambushers without worrying about the reserve limits) is needed on turn 1, and with that I feel like more durability is needed, hence why I started looking at the Goliath truck in both its forms. While I plan on eventually expanding into the more PDF style elements of the cult, I'm still getting into the miners right now and focusing on those sweet, sweet sculpts.
Red Corsair wrote: Yea I have been having the most success recently using mainly neophytes. They perform well in any situation for their points. They are by far the best unit to ambush. Currently the best two units in the book aside from characters are the neophytes and the Aberrant. I'd say the best characters are the Magus and the Abomanant, Primus is nice to have for that reliable ambush when you really need a result but more often then not the other two are really pulling their weight.
For a 20man Shotgun Neophyte bomb, it's probably not worth even spending the points on a Primus right? Just use the Strat seems good enough?
Yea generally, but I take a primus in the list for one unit anyway because sometimes you need to almost guarantee a result, for example to grab an objective from an enemy or to tie down a tank line etc. I also like the primus because he does work all on his own, I never keep him back, he usually goes in after another target. I wouldn't take a primus for multiple units though, he definitely helps a great deal on turn 2 with shotgun bloke though since the large unit can be hard to place near your ideal target as well. So basically I just take the one and often use him on the 20 man shotgun blob because I have a very specific task in mind that turn and 3 dice rerolling allows them to be accurate for that task. Plus everything is so cheap it really isn't hard to squeeze a single primus into most lists.
Causalis wrote: I have made the experience that the Truck is alright as a driving "bunker" for my Neophytes. All my other Neophytes are often dead on turn 3 since they die like flies even in cover. So the Truck does have his place as a shooting platform.
The problem is just that it is still way too expensive and that its guns are currently almost worthless. I hope it gets either significantly cheaper or a bit cheaper and ignores the penalty for moving and shooting.
I have considered the bunker idea but the issue is efficiency. That garbage truck costs more then 20 additional neos. With the +1 cover save strat I would always rather have the extra bodies turn 1. You can also divide them into multiple squads of course, cult ambushing some as needed. GSC is strange as an army because we don't need transports a lot of the time. So the transport needs to protect something valuable IMO. Chaf is not valuable.
I no longer ambush any combat units personally since waiting until turn 2 and fishing for 5's and 6's is a poor strategy. Even with a primus it just is not worth it much of the time. As discussed in the last few pages, vanguard elite units like purestrains and abberants often come in, hit a cheap screen and then die. For example a 20 man GS unit is often praised for it;s damage output and for good reason. 20 purestrains can easily be buffed to the point of having 5 strength 5 or even strength 6 attacks, the issue is they cost 300 points before adding in all the buffing character support. It's exceedingly difficult to ambush 20 models into an ideal position on turn 2 for assaulting only and not lose them the very next turn, and this is made even more of a gamble since your looking to kill more points then your spending meaning you now need to kill something worth at least 300 points. This ties into the next issue which is being too good, yes you heard me, 9/10 you will literally cause more damage then the target has wounds leaving you stuck in the open after overkilling less points worth of scrubs. I honestly think the flurry of claws rule is a trap, I would rather take 5 man purestrain units and use them like ninja squads to bully objectives near ruins but generally speaking I have been leaving them home entirely at the moment. 15ppm is way to expensive for how squishy and one dimensional they are.
For heavy lifting I have been using abberants, they are much more durable then you would expect and can fit taking only a single seat into a Chimera with room for a character, if your scared of explosions just take a pair of familiars on a magus or 5 acolytes, though with my ballsy play style I just roll with characters and Abbs lol. Turn 1 going second you have a T7 2+ save bunker and going first you have a T7 3+ save -1 to hit bunker to stage your assault from.
Now having said that I will let you all into my brain as it is still constantly evolving (hopefully not devolving) like a brood brother lol. I like abberants, but I like the abomanant much more and for his cost this jerk is insanely efficient and I am currently working on reducing the abberant count to a single small pick ax unit (never take hammers if you have more then one abomanant he does their job better in every way) and three abomanants since they have insane board control. Your opponent wont want to get near them and they can lead 20 man mobs of neophytes and fill their only hole, which is big stompy things they struggle to wound. Not being able to target them and the reduced damage and healing keeps these guys active all game.
I will always have a pick axe abberant unit though since these guys are so good at killing any type of target. They also get the most mileage from the abomanant sicne they have double the attacks of hammer abbs.
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SHUPPET wrote: True and the bonus to hit can't be looked over either
Yea I toss a banner in my shotgun unit and they do surprisingly well in combat near him.
I can vouch for the Abominant being very efficient, i recently had a couple games against death guard and I ambushed him near a demon prince.
That game my opponent failed three psychic tests because of the familiar and he killed the Demon prince and later on bloat drone im one round of combat. Hes insane.
How much damage could an Abominant + Abberants do to a baneblade chassis i wonder
Kharne the Befriender wrote: I can vouch for the Abominant being very efficient, i recently had a couple games against death guard and I ambushed him near a demon prince.
That game my opponent failed three psychic tests because of the familiar and he killed the Demon prince and later on bloat drone im one round of combat. Hes insane.
How much damage could an Abominant + Abberants do to a baneblade chassis i wonder
Abominant is 3 attacks at S12, AP-3, WS 3+, d6 damage (floor of 3), correct?
Aberrants are either 2 attacks at WS 4+, S10, AP-3, damage 3, or 2 attacks at WS 3+, S5, AP-2, damage d3 and 2 attacks at WS 3+, S5, AP-1 (-4 on 6s to wound) damage 1, right?
And both of them do two hits on a hit roll of 6, thanks to the Abominant.
Abominant does 5/6 hits per swing, 2/3 wounds per hit, 5/6 unsaved per wound, and 4 damage per unsaved wound.
Aberrants do 2/3 hits per Hammer swing, 2/3 wounds per hit, 5/6 unsaved per wound, and 3 damage per unsaved wound.
Aberrants do 5/6 hits per Pick swing, 1/3 wounds per hit, 2/3 unsaved per wound, and 2 damage per unsaved wound. Plus 5/6 hits per Rending Claw swing, 1/6 wounds at AP-1 and 1/6 wounds at AP-4 per hit, 1/2 unsaved per AP-1 and 1/1 per AP-4, and 1 damage per unsaved wound.
Altogether...
Abominant does 1.85 damage per attack.
Hammerants do 1.11 damage per attack.
Pickants do .37 per Pick attack and .21 per Claw attack, for .58 total per attack.
Against a 26 wound Baneblade, you need...
An Abominant and 18.42 Hammerants or 35.26 Pickants to kill (26 wounds).
An Abominant and 13.02 Hammerants or 24.91 Pickants to drop to third tier (20 wounds).
An Abominant and 6.71 Hammerants or 12.84 Pickants to drop to second tier (13 wounds).
A full Chimera of 9 Hammerants and an Abominant do an average of 15.54 damage to a Baneblade, and have the following odds. (Thanks Anydice!)
97.04% chance of bracketing it once (13 wounds).
78.91% chance of bracketing it twice (20 wounds).
49.32% chance of killing it (26 wounds).
Edit: Let's add a Primus!
Abominant does 1 hit per swing, 2/3 wounds per hit, 5/6 unsaved per wound, and 4 damage per unsaved wound.
Aberrants do 5/6 hits per Hammer swing, 2/3 wounds per hit, 5/6 unsaved per wound, and 3 damage per unsaved wound.
Aberrants do 1 hits per Pick swing, 1/3 wounds per hit, 2/3 unsaved per wound, and 2 damage per unsaved wound. Plus 1 hit per Rending Claw swing, 1/6 wounds at AP-1 and 1/6 wounds at AP-4 per hit, 1/2 unsaved per AP-1 and 1/1 per AP-4, and 1 damage per unsaved wound.
Altogether...
Abominant does 2.22 damage per attack.
Hammerants do 1.39 damage per attack.
Pickants do .44 per Pick attack and .25 per Claw attack, for .69 total per attack.
A Chimera of 8 Hammerants, 1 Abominant, and 1 Primus do an average of (discounting the Primus' attacks) 28.9 wounds, enough to kill a Baneblade chassis! And their odds of doing the things are... (Thanks again, Anydice!)
99.19% chance of bracketing it once (13 wounds).
90.54% chance of bracketing it twice (20 wounds).
68.43% chance of killing it (26 wounds).
Edit: Don't Chimeras go up to 12? I'm a dumb.
Odds are actually, with a Primus, Abominant, and 10 Hammerants...
99.95% chance of bracketing once.
97.47% chance of bracketing twice.
87.61% chance of killing.
Odds are actually, with an Abominant and 10 Hammerants...
98.33% chance of bracketing once.
85.95% chance of bracketing twice.
60.74% chance of killing.
With the changes to Cult Ambush and the hint that GW seems to want to make the game longer by decreasing how important turn 1 is, I have to wonder how strong a blob of shotguns will be in the future. I mean I love the idea as it is, and it seems like it could be solid in the future if you prefer to play more aggressive since the S4 shots are better than the S3 autogun....
Basically, I mainly wonder if building shotguns is worth it under the assumption that they'll be taking away the ability to psuedo-deep strike in favor of something else.
with a single Primus nearby that's over 40x S4 attacks hitting on 3+ for no real cost other that a single power.
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