1. GW are testing their customers for mdf.
2. GW are selling oop figures to the people that didn't get them previously, but not giving them 'free' decent plastic terrain as part of the deal.
Choice 1 would be poor from GW, as the sales of previously limited models would add an extra variable to the mdf test.
I think that everone understands that any prior scarcity here has been artificially manufactured by GW and shouldn't be taken into account when rationally evaluating the set (which seems to be a great deal anyway).
A fair question for veteran players, but having a ~$100 product that you can just buy as a gift or a trial product is important.
1. You don't need to download an app, or worse, a PDF to start playing.
2. Everything is in one box – Even if you could buy equivalent products in 3 boxes, it feels clunkier.
3. The box lasts for 3 plus years so you can more easily create a chain of people who can teach each other.
4. The models are some of the best they've ever made.
I think where they've knocked this product out of the park is that both starting factions are awesome and indicative of the major factions in the game. Hivestorm is a better "value," IMHO, but even if I were generous, I wouldn't want to introduce someone to 40K with the Vespids or Imperial Guard specialists.
"So 40K is about a civil war between these superhuman space marines and their traitorous brothers. So the Astra Militarum, that's the name of the human military that fights alongside the space marines, are these fiddly guys. The bug men are actually a slace race that work on behalf of the the Tau, which are not space marines, but fish people who wear armor and drive mechs."
Every starter box should have space marines. My preference is that they'd be chapter-specific models, but you could also just do cool new poses, battle damage, or whatever. I'd heavily wager that a unit of imperial fist guys would be more popular than trenchcoat squats or Mandrakes and would better represent the game to potential new players.
tauist wrote: I havent commented on the starter earlier, but kind of feel it misses the mark. Now that KT24 is effectively "free" in the sense that you have all the team rules and core rules for free, plus you have the app, why would anyone even bother with the starter? Wouldn't you be better off just buying a bespoke team kit and you're off to the races?
I see this as just GW offering folks the opportunity to stock up on limited run models on the low-low (cutting off scalpers in the process). That terrain could easily be DIYed in an afternoon from a bunch of empty cereal boxes..
flaherty wrote: I wouldn't want to introduce someone to 40K with the Vespids or Imperial Guard specialists.
"So 40K is about a civil war between these superhuman space marines and their traitorous brothers.
It seems somewhat odd that you wouldn't want them to start with Vespids or Scions so that rather than be introduced to the variety of 40k, you can claim 40k is all about Space Marines and give someone the impression that it's their story and the other stuff doesn't matter because they're not Space marines. That is not what 40k is.
Cyel wrote: I think that everone understands that any prior scarcity here has been artificially manufactured by GW and shouldn't be taken into account when rationally evaluating the set (which seems to be a great deal anyway).
I think you're right, what people are paying on secondary market doesn't matter. But it's still cheaper than what you'd have paid if you'd got a set back when they came out.
And where I think the rarity does factor in is that because so few people have them, it has a similar appeal to a new sculpt. It's not just the regular box of plague marines and Intercessors you can already buy.
Exactly right. It's a rich universe, but if you want to create gateway products, highlighting anything other than the characters from the most popular game of the year, about which 95% of the lore is based around is madness.
I like and collect quite a few xenos factions, but they're supporting characters. If you snapped your fingers and got rid of space marines, I doubt 40K would survive for long. Whereas you could squat the Tau and and Astra Militarum, and certainly their niche options, without having much impact on the universe.
Having some offerings for whales is fine, but make it easy for old-timers to recruit new fans!
Lord Damocles wrote: There's also this dinky little computer game around at the moment which happens to have the blue Space Marines in it...
Since I spent so much time complaining about the Vespid, I should talk about the rest of the Hivestorm box. The terrain was kind of ‘meh’, like most GW terrain. It was okay, but a little rough in fit and mold seems, and didn’t blow me away.
The Aquilons were about 180 degrees opposite the Vespid. Good detail, precise fit, and hardly a mold seam in sight. What a difference.
You talk a lot about prices, MDFs, perceived rarity of models, their quality etc, but nobody mentions what is important - the rules and how KT24 plays.
How many of you actually play the game and what are your impressions?
I am not too happy, tbh. KT21 was really good as far as I am concerned, and only required a couple of tweaks (Initiative, TacOp balance) and these things are not fixed still. A lot of other things were introduced that I dislike - like non-counterable equipment, unnecessary granularity in ranges, terrible TacOp balance and some pretty bad Crit Ops, removing binary effects with dice modifiers lessening the impact of positioning and increasing that of randomness. Team balance, allegedly adjusted with most meticulous precision in KT21, just thrown into a bucket and shaken vigorously.
A lot of changes for the worse with no real changes for the better, at most half-assed band-aids (like the extra CP for losing Initiative).
On a more subjective/personal note, I also am a bit lost with scoring this edition and feel I've lost my flow/mojo/whatever it is called. It reminds me of some point salad euro games where I hardly ever knew the consequences of my moves - is taking 2 stones now going to make me have more points than my opponent at the end of the game or is it taking 3 pigs? No idea!
The same now with invalidation of my favourite playstyle in any game - getting all my guys killed so that I win in the end () - I have problems with predicting when sacrificing an operative is actually worth it.
KT21 had a much clearer focus on scenario - sacrificing an operative for points was always worth it, and I loved it
The addition of scenarios where performing mission actions can actually backfire - like those when you build up points for the opponent to steal them - makes it even more of an obfuscated scoring reality I can't get my head around.
tauist wrote: why would anyone even bother with the starter?
As mentioned several times in the thread, the Lite (sic) rules are NOT the full rules.
Coop and solo modes are also not available anywhere but the BRB.
And enjoy your one free mission for the next three years unless you buy.
Now the stupid thing is that the poor excuse for a rulebook included in this "starter set" (with its undersized teams and joke MDF sticker terrain) will not remedy any of these problems either, because it is also "Lite" rules.
The best way to play this game is buy the BRB and use your existing collection. And the best thing to do with this starter is not buy it so that GW never get the idea that people will tolerate this this kind of BS. Even if this was $50 CAD I wouldn't buy it, though to be fair that's because I'm not particularly interested in Marines or Deathguard. If I really wanted both sets of models, I suppose it would be worth $50.
Undead_Love-Machine wrote: I think that it's fair to say that MDF terrain is a massive downgrade on GW plastic terrain, whatever your thoughts on perceived value.
This sort of MDF terrain that can be disassembled and stored flat is a huge consideration for some people to whom space isn't available to store a set of permanently assembled terrain and thus is worth more to them.
Undead_Love-Machine wrote: I think that it's fair to say that MDF terrain is a massive downgrade on GW plastic terrain, whatever your thoughts on perceived value.
This sort of MDF terrain that can be disassembled and stored flat is a huge consideration for some people to whom space isn't available to store a set of permanently assembled terrain and thus is worth more to them.
Very much this. The terrain in the new KT box is super appealing to me for storage and convenience while also still looking good. I am blown away by the negativity around the KT starter box when it seems to be one of the best designed 'gaming first' boxes GW has put out in years.
Undead_Love-Machine wrote: I think that it's fair to say that MDF terrain is a massive downgrade on GW plastic terrain, whatever your thoughts on perceived value.
It's a downgrade on what you get in Hivestorm, or you got in Octarius for sure. A big bunch of multi-level terrain. But compared to the last starter set, is this:
really a downgrade on this?
A little bit, maybe. But I don't think they're massively different.
tauist wrote: why would anyone even bother with the starter?
As mentioned several times in the thread, the Lite (sic) rules are NOT the full rules.
Coop and solo modes are also not available anywhere but the BRB.
And enjoy your one free mission for the next three years unless you buy.
Now the stupid thing is that the poor excuse for a rulebook included in this "starter set" (with its undersized teams and joke MDF sticker terrain) will not remedy any of these problems either, because it is also "Lite" rules.
The best way to play this game is buy the BRB and use your existing collection. And the best thing to do with this starter is not buy it so that GW never get the idea that people will tolerate this this kind of BS. Even if this was $50 CAD I wouldn't buy it, though to be fair that's because I'm not particularly interested in Marines or Deathguard. If I really wanted both sets of models, I suppose it would be worth $50.
The rule book is £37.50. The starter set is £67.50. The latter is not going to contain the former. Though I do wish it had a little book like the 2021 starter set did. If only because it was handy to have the rules in a small A5 book.
But yeah, if you're not just "starting" Kill Team and have an existing collection, then the Starter Set is never going to be for you. Unless you really want the models or the DG Kill Team. What I'm intrigued to see is if the full rules for Death Guard Kill Teams will just be highly specific rules for these 7 minis, like any other full boxed team, or if they'll be more generic rules you can use with other DG marine models, like the Angels of Death team.
Undead_Love-Machine wrote: I think that it's fair to say that MDF terrain is a massive downgrade on GW plastic terrain, whatever your thoughts on perceived value.
This sort of MDF terrain that can be disassembled and stored flat is a huge consideration for some people to whom space isn't available to store a set of permanently assembled terrain and thus is worth more to them.
Sure, but I guess what I was doing was comparing the detail that is possible on plastic GW kits to the absolute lack of detail on MDF kits.
A big part of why I have been in this hobby for so long is small details. I want detailed models & kits rather than tokens or boardgame pieces.
In this regard MDF is an absolutely massive downgrade for me, personally.
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deano2099 wrote: ...compared to the last starter set, is this....really a downgrade on this?
flaherty wrote: Exactly right. It's a rich universe, but if you want to create gateway products, highlighting anything other than the characters from the most popular game of the year, about which 95% of the lore is based around is madness.
I like and collect quite a few xenos factions, but they're supporting characters. If you snapped your fingers and got rid of space marines, I doubt 40K would survive for long. Whereas you could squat the Tau and and Astra Militarum, and certainly their niche options, without having much impact on the universe.
Having some offerings for whales is fine, but make it easy for old-timers to recruit new fans!
Lord Damocles wrote: There's also this dinky little computer game around at the moment which happens to have the blue Space Marines in it...
Absurd thing to say. 40k is not "95%" space marine stories, and they are not the entity of the setting of you're making out. They have more books and miniatures that any other singular faction because they are the most popular, but that does not mean 40k is for them and nothing else matters Going "If you got rid of the factions and lore that makes up the 40k universe, then theres no effect on the 40k universe!" is just utter nonsense. All the factions matters, they're all part of what makes up what 40k is, just because some aren't as popular or feature less doesn't mean they don't contribute anything to the setting.
Undead_Love-Machine wrote: I think that it's fair to say that MDF terrain is a massive downgrade on GW plastic terrain, whatever your thoughts on perceived value.
It's a downgrade on what you get in Hivestorm, or you got in Octarius for sure. A big bunch of multi-level terrain. But compared to the last starter set, is this:
really a downgrade on this?
A little bit, maybe. But I don't think they're massively different.
I don't see how you could think they're not massively different. In terms of purpose in the game they're similar, but one is an extremely cheap, low quality, quite lazy undetailed bit of flat cardboard, while the other - despite not being overly substantial - is at least something that has had some effort put into it and can be painted up to look quite nice.
Undead_Love-Machine wrote: I think that it's fair to say that MDF terrain is a massive downgrade on GW plastic terrain, whatever your thoughts on perceived value.
This sort of MDF terrain that can be disassembled and stored flat is a huge consideration for some people to whom space isn't available to store a set of permanently assembled terrain and thus is worth more to them.
Sure, but I guess what I was doing was comparing the detail that is possible on plastic GW kits to the absolute lack of detail on MDF kits.
A big part of why I have been in this hobby for so long is small details. I want detailed models & kits rather than tokens or boardgame pieces.
In this regard MDF is an absolutely massive downgrade for me, personally.
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deano2099 wrote: ...compared to the last starter set, is this....really a downgrade on this?
Yes, for the reasons mentioned above
Then it's probably not a great leap to see why as a starter set, the opposite is true: less detail = easier to paint for beginners, with no painting at all for the scenery. Detailed kits are utterly out of place in a starter set.
flaherty wrote: Exactly right. It's a rich universe, but if you want to create gateway products, highlighting anything other than the characters from the most popular game of the year, about which 95% of the lore is based around is madness.
I like and collect quite a few xenos factions, but they're supporting characters. If you snapped your fingers and got rid of space marines, I doubt 40K would survive for long. Whereas you could squat the Tau and and Astra Militarum, and certainly their niche options, without having much impact on the universe.
Having some offerings for whales is fine, but make it easy for old-timers to recruit new fans!
Lord Damocles wrote: There's also this dinky little computer game around at the moment which happens to have the blue Space Marines in it...
Clearly we need a Bechdel Test for 40k. If two Xenos have a conversation about something that isn't Space Marines....
Then it's probably not a great leap to see why as a starter set, the opposite is true: less detail = easier to paint for beginners, with no painting at all for the scenery. Detailed kits are utterly out of place in a starter set.
By your logic, why include any miniatures in a starter set? I mean, beginners don't need to paint tokens do they?
Detailed models are utterly out of place in a starter set
I don't see how you could think they're not massively different. In terms of purpose in the game they're similar, but one is an extremely cheap, low quality, quite lazy undetailed bit of flat cardboard, while the other - despite not being overly substantial - is at least something that has had some effort put into it and can be painted up to look quite nice.
Different sure, but I don't see one as being inherently better. I see a bunch of fairly flat grey plastic versus a bunch of fairly flat painted wood. The plastic will look better once painted (and frankly, is flat enough that the arguments about fitting it back in the box are less relevant) but the MDF can be used without painting. I personally don't find painting terrain particularly rewarding but some do. I honestly don't see one as massively better than the other.
(But for Kill Team, I'd prefer some terrain with some verticality to it, which neither offers)
Then it's probably not a great leap to see why as a starter set, the opposite is true: less detail = easier to paint for beginners, with no painting at all for the scenery. Detailed kits are utterly out of place in a starter set.
By your logic, why include any miniatures in a starter set? I mean, beginners don't need to paint tokens do they?
Fair point, if the game is good enough to stand-alone you could just include standees. Problem is the game isn't good enough. The unique selling point is the GW top-quality minis. GW's terrain? I hear people talking about that a lot less. And also by including models that some people might want, you broaden the appeal of the starter. You can sell to people who want to get into the game, and to people who want those currently unavailable minis. And to KT fans who want a Death Guard team.
There's a reason every starter set has marines or Stormcast. Hell, there's a reason Stormcast exist in the first place.
I don't see how you could think they're not massively different. In terms of purpose in the game they're similar, but one is an extremely cheap, low quality, quite lazy undetailed bit of flat cardboard, while the other - despite not being overly substantial - is at least something that has had some effort put into it and can be painted up to look quite nice.
Different sure, but I don't see one as being inherently better. I see a bunch of fairly flat grey plastic versus a bunch of fairly flat painted wood. The plastic will look better once painted (and frankly, is flat enough that the arguments about fitting it back in the box are less relevant) but the MDF can be used without painting. I personally don't find painting terrain particularly rewarding but some do. I honestly don't see one as massively better than the other.
(But for Kill Team, I'd prefer some terrain with some verticality to it, which neither offers)
Quite odd if that's what you see.You appear to be missing all the terrain that is not the 6 walls the box has (which even then, are not flat and have quite a bit of detail), like all the piles of stuff and the Ork barricades which have plenty of detail.
I don't see how you could think they're not massively different. In terms of purpose in the game they're similar, but one is an extremely cheap, low quality, quite lazy undetailed bit of flat cardboard, while the other - despite not being overly substantial - is at least something that has had some effort put into it and can be painted up to look quite nice.
Different sure, but I don't see one as being inherently better. I see a bunch of fairly flat grey plastic versus a bunch of fairly flat painted wood. The plastic will look better once painted (and frankly, is flat enough that the arguments about fitting it back in the box are less relevant) but the MDF can be used without painting. I personally don't find painting terrain particularly rewarding but some do. I honestly don't see one as massively better than the other.
(But for Kill Team, I'd prefer some terrain with some verticality to it, which neither offers)
Quite odd if that's what you see.You appear to be missing all the terrain that is not the 6 walls the box has (which even then, are not flat and have quite a bit of detail), like all the piles of stuff and the Ork barricades which have plenty of detail.
It's just a different aesthetic. I've no doubt if the MDF literally had the ork terrain stuff painted on it, so it was the same level of detail, the same people would still not like the MDF and the same people would still like the MDF.
deano2099 wrote: There's a reason every starter set has marines or Stormcast. Hell, there's a reason Stormcast exist in the first place.
Right, and it has little or nothing to do with my comment on plastic terrain vs MDF
You made two points in that post, I was addressing the second one with my second bit. I'll admit I didn't quote that bit as I assumed you'd be able to follow it. But I'm glad you agree on simpler models being better for starter sets.
MDF is not even close, so it's silly to put GW plastic on that level.
The reason for this post is that this MDF does not add immersion in comparison with detailed 3d plastic and unlike with plastic kits you cant cut bits and have unique terrain features. Furthermore this new material is not compatible with any plastic GW has done. One of the best plastic features in necromundas etc was the modularity.
So its not compatible, you cant alter it or use it for different purposes like basing, the design is boring (theres really complex and great MDF kits, but this is not it)... hell its so basic they could well just do something like Battle Systems cards. It would still hold less value than any plastic.
Easy to assemble and take apart? Well any plastic can do that too just better.
You made two points in that post, I was addressing the second one with my second bit. I'll admit I didn't quote that bit as I assumed you'd be able to follow it. But I'm glad you agree on simpler models being better for starter sets.
Genuinely, what are you talking about?
When I said that GW should replace the minis in starter sets with tokens it was a joke to show your flawed logic RE detail not being required in a starter set.
I mean, of courseGW aren't going to do that, because they are a miniatures company
I hate that you are making me spell this out to you, but such is life
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NAVARRO wrote: Guess we are back discussing the "value".
MDF is not even close, so it's silly to put GW plastic on that level.
The reason for this post is that this MDF does not add immersion in comparison with detailed 3d plastic and unlike with plastic kits you cant cut bits and have unique terrain features. Furthermore this new material is not compatible with any plastic GW has done. One of the best plastic features in necromundas etc was the modularity.
So its not compatible, you cant alter it or use it for different purposes like basing, the design is boring (theres really complex and great MDF kits, but this is not it)... hell its so basic they could well just do something like Battle Systems cards. It would still hold less value than any plastic.
Easy to assemble and take apart? Well any plastic can do that too just better.
the advantage of MDF would have been to have much more 3D terrain with different levels in the box than it would be possible with the classic GW frames
yet those are all in the same level and the advantage for the starter is simply that you can easily store it away because you won't use after the first games any more
not having the full rules either means this is more of a demo set rather than a starter with main thing going being the collectors edition models for "cheap"
Cyel wrote: You talk a lot about prices, MDFs, perceived rarity of models, their quality etc, but nobody mentions what is important - the rules and how KT24 plays.
How many of you actually play the game and what are your impressions?
Spoiler:
I am not too happy, tbh. KT21 was really good as far as I am concerned, and only required a couple of tweaks (Initiative, TacOp balance) and these things are not fixed still. A lot of other things were introduced that I dislike - like non-counterable equipment, unnecessary granularity in ranges, terrible TacOp balance and some pretty bad Crit Ops, removing binary effects with dice modifiers lessening the impact of positioning and increasing that of randomness. Team balance, allegedly adjusted with most meticulous precision in KT21, just thrown into a bucket and shaken vigorously.
A lot of changes for the worse with no real changes for the better, at most half-assed band-aids (like the extra CP for losing Initiative).
On a more subjective/personal note, I also am a bit lost with scoring this edition and feel I've lost my flow/mojo/whatever it is called. It reminds me of some point salad euro games where I hardly ever knew the consequences of my moves - is taking 2 stones now going to make me have more points than my opponent at the end of the game or is it taking 3 pigs? No idea!
The same now with invalidation of my favourite playstyle in any game - getting all my guys killed so that I win in the end () - I have problems with predicting when sacrificing an operative is actually worth it.
KT21 had a much clearer focus on scenario - sacrificing an operative for points was always worth it, and I loved it
The addition of scenarios where performing mission actions can actually backfire - like those when you build up points for the opponent to steal them - makes it even more of an obfuscated scoring reality I can't get my head around.
So, nobody does? Colour me not surprised The discussion about the material terrain is made of feels so relevant now XD
Quick start box - like terrain, love models, when I get my hands on it will be able to try the rules. Given how badly 10th ed for 40k is landing if its more of that stuff we will be playing other games.
Kill Team is very much NOT like big WH40K. I was refusing to accept it, having been disillusioned with how GW designs games for a decade now, but my friends kept nagging to make me try it...
Finally I agreed, with my expectations very low, and I tried KT21 and what do you know, my friends were right. It is very much a game unlike GW - low on randomness, with most time spent actually playing and not endlessly rolling dice, there are pretty cool choices to make all the time, positioning matters a lot, rules are clean and unambiguous. It is much more like a modern, well thought out, sleek board game, decision-heavy, quick with resolution, than the outdated, tedious, non-interactive pseudo-games that are main GW products.
So a surprise for me and I had to admit I'd had my expectations wrong with this one.
Dysartes wrote: "joke MDF sticker terrain" seems a bit harsh, unless you've already had your hands on it to evaluate the quality, Jake.
You're right, it may be; I'll walk it back a bit.
People spoke about ease of storage and use- those arguments do make sense. Also, the photo comparison of the old starter terrain revealed that it wasn't multi-level either, and that was one of my huge issues with the MDF.
I still think there could have been more variety- as others have mentioned, some MDF terrain kits are really intricate and diverse, and this is just fairly samey L-Shaped ruins. If other products begin to include MDF, maybe variety comes as new sets are released. Right now, this stuff doesn't fit with anything else GW makes... but that might not always be the case.
For me, the partial rules is the most serious drawback.
tauist wrote: why would anyone even bother with the starter?
As mentioned several times in the thread, the Lite (sic) rules are NOT the full rules.
Coop and solo modes are also not available anywhere but the BRB.
And enjoy your one free mission for the next three years unless you buy.
Now the stupid thing is that the poor excuse for a rulebook included in this "starter set" (with its undersized teams and joke MDF sticker terrain) will not remedy any of these problems either, because it is also "Lite" rules.
The best way to play this game is buy the BRB and use your existing collection. And the best thing to do with this starter is not buy it so that GW never get the idea that people will tolerate this this kind of BS. Even if this was $50 CAD I wouldn't buy it, though to be fair that's because I'm not particularly interested in Marines or Deathguard. If I really wanted both sets of models, I suppose it would be worth $50.
THIS
Right now, newcomers have a choice between Hivestorm and the starter. Between the two, the only logical choice is buying only the essentials(which includes the BRB), and half a box each of Primaris and Assault Intercessors.
This should not even be allowed to have a discussion.
Except you can't easily buy half a box. Or you might want to play Death Guard.
It makes sense to question the value of the starter but honestly I'm baffled by people suggesting it's actually better value to buy a £37.50 rulebook. That's by far the biggest rip off in the whole system. But each to their own I guess.
having the rules to play the game vs having the models to play the game, the rules are better value here
also because you can get models easily outside said boxes
51€+55€ for rulebook + 1 team VS 51€+87,5€ for rulebook and 2 teams VS 180€ for the big box
unless you want to play both specific Marine teams exclusive to the box, you are better of with any other team you like and the rules or the big box if you start together with someone else
outside of those people who really want the specific Marine models, no real reason to go for that box and as the "value" for playing Kill Team isn't there
It's two teams rather than one though. Your figures, 106EUR for one team and rulebook or 138.50EUR for two teams and rulebook. You won't get a second team for less than 32.50EUR anywhere else. Sure, if you have no interest in those teams then it's not great value to you, but again as a beginner unless it's aesthetics you're not going to know what teams you're interested in. An extra team is a different way of playing.
I'd agree the big box is better value overall though.
Regarding rules on these bundle sets I think GW keeps missing the Solo play train. I mean they introduced them now to the main rules ( I dont know how robust they are or if they are any good) BUT holy cow what a missed chance to hype Solo play games on a bundle with all the rules.
Coop and Solo play were the things most people were hyped about the new version as far as I have seen, and the one thing completely left behind
and I am still surprised that at least the solo play rules didn't make it into the Marine starter because that being aimed at collectors were the solo play would make it a perfect addition
deano2099 wrote: It's two teams rather than one though.[...]but again as a beginner unless it's aesthetics you're not going to know what teams you're interested in. An extra team is a different way of playing.
were we are again what was already said pages ago, that Space Marines VS Space Marines isn't a good choice here as the difference is playing isn't really there and for that case Marines VS anything not Marines would be better
so as a beginner, who doesn't really know, get the rulebook and a team that appeals by the aesthetics or the advertised play style is still the better value over 2 similar teams were you would need to buy a third one of that playstyle isn't for you
NAVARRO wrote: Regarding rules on these bundle sets I think GW keeps missing the Solo play train. I mean they introduced them now to the main rules ( I dont know how robust they are or if they are any good) BUT holy cow what a missed chance to hype Solo play games on a bundle with all the rules.
The solo/coop rules are...bad. I mean they're fine but as someone who does a lot of co-op gaming, I'll not be bothering with them. It's a nice value add but nowhere near the level of an actual co-op game. As in, if you released it as a boxed game on its own with no competitive rules it'd get laughed out of the store.
deano2099 wrote: It's two teams rather than one though.[...]but again as a beginner unless it's aesthetics you're not going to know what teams you're interested in. An extra team is a different way of playing.
were we are again what was already said pages ago, that Space Marines VS Space Marines isn't a good choice here as the difference is playing isn't really there and for that case Marines VS anything not Marines would be better
so as a beginner, who doesn't really know, get the rulebook and a team that appeals by the aesthetics or the advertised play style is still the better value over 2 similar teams were you would need to buy a third one of that playstyle isn't for you
I mean you could be right but we literally don't have the full Death Guard team rules yet.
deano2099 wrote: Except you can't easily buy half a box. Or you might want to play Death Guard.
It makes sense to question the value of the starter but honestly I'm baffled by people suggesting it's actually better value to buy a £37.50 rulebook. That's by far the biggest rip off in the whole system. But each to their own I guess.
If you can't afford Hivestorm, then the book is the best deal, because if you can't afford Hivestorm, buying the book is the only way to actually play the whole game.
Calling something a "starter" when it doesn't include a full book is something that shouldn't be allowed- it's akin to false advertising. I mean, if you want to call it a starter, then right on the front of the box, just under the title in big, bold, all caps, you should have to include the words "WARNING: THIS KIT DOES NOT INCLUDE FULL RULES" - it needs to be written large enough so that any parent buying it for their kids can't possibly miss it.
If the the thing you most want to do with the game is play solo/ co-op, then "free rules" don't exist and this MDF sticker terrain, half squad*, lite rule BS is the least value option.... And in fact it is a NO VALUE option because it will not allow you to do the thing that you most want to do.
And honestly, I'm baffled by people who can't see that.
*Yes, I know that those are technically "full teams," but in terms of value (ie. not rules, but material costs) an infantry model is an infantry model and the Blooded box has 12 models in a single KT. This joke of a box has, what, 12? 13? The fact that it's two teams allows two people to play instead of one, but it doesn't increase the dollar value of the box contents. Pricing a product based on its rules rather than its production cost is another anti-consumer business practice that goes far beyond just being a problem with this box.
So far it feels like they've done it for the wrong game as Necromunda: Hive Secundus was the perfect opportunity to delve into solo-coop. They've already proven the rules with the Ambot Hunt scenario and Secundus had the whole ALIENS thing going on, which is perfect for that style of play.
Otherwise, they should've released a new 40K Quest lined up to take over from Blackstone Fortress - pretty much the most acclaimed 40K game in recent years. Or even Space Hulk. Christmas is drawing closer and board games are the big thing at that time of the year.
I think where I struggle, and maybe where we keep seeing past each others point, is that we're constantly in this shifting place of what you need to start.
You can't start with just one team and the rulebook, you need two teams and the rulebook. That's what you need to play from scratch on your own.
And if the argument is "well what if you want to play against other people who already have teams" well then those same people... might also already have the rulebook. Or you can watch Learn to Play videos or playthroughs and learn the rules that way.
Obviously you need the rules for your team, but they're not in that book, they're free to download separately, or you can buy the cards.
And yeah if you want to just play solo/co-op - best option is to buy a good solo or co-op game instead of one with rules just tacked on.
(And it's 14 models, 7 for each team, same as you get in the Inquisitorial Agents box. Or the new Ork team seems to be 6 Orks and two Squigs, so I guess that box is awful too).
Pricing a product based on its rules rather than its production cost is another anti-consumer business practice that goes far beyond just being a problem with this box.
Yes, and by far the most egregious example of that is the £37.50 rulebook that we're arguing is good value!
Automatically Appended Next Post: (Also just realised because the Starter Set minis are from the Heroes release, every single one comes on its own sprue, so in terms of production costs, it's going to be more expensive than the Blooded sprues. Even though it's fewer mins.)
I will just remind again, that the core rulebook from the Volkus set is sold for a much smaller price by all these people who sell parts of Volkus separately on online auctions.
Otherwise, they should've released a new 40K Quest lined up to take over from Blackstone Fortress
Hell yes! I would so much rather have KT21 with all of its glorious spec ops rules for at least another year, and a glorious new 40k quest game. And they could have released solo and coop rules for KT21 via PDF or White Dwarf.
I mean, don't get me wrong- I'm happy to have actual measurements instead of shapes, but that's the only thing that was really wrong about KT21.
deano2099 wrote: I think where I struggle, and maybe where we keep seeing past each others point, is that we're constantly in this shifting place of what you need to start.
You can't start with just one team and the rulebook, you need two teams and the rulebook. That's what you need to play from scratch on your own.
But what comes in this box ISN'T the rulebook. It's a thing that let's you play something like the game, but not the actual game. It could include 10 teams, and it still would not let you play the whole game. Seriously. It's not going to have all the tac-ops/ crit-ops. It's not going to have missions for the full game. This books ONLY value is that it walks somebody through tutorial sessions to introduce various rules over time, rather than playing the actual whole game from day one.
And if the argument is "well what if you want to play against other people who already have teams" well then those same people... might also already have the rulebook. Or you can watch Learn to Play videos or playthroughs and learn the rules that way.
Again, learn to play videos do not include the whole game. No video is going to give you the rules for ALL of the Tac-ops/ crit ops, nor will it give you a large enough selection of missions using full rules to keep you entertained.
What you need to play the whole game is the BRB, a team and an opponent OR if you want to play solo, a selection of models in addition to your team that can represent the NPO's (non-player operatives) used in that mode.
And yeah if you want to just play solo/co-op - best option is to buy a good solo or co-op game instead of one with rules just tacked on.
Games set in the 40k galaxy are the only miniature games that I'm interested in. No other company has the longevity and stability of GW, and no other games has such a variety of factions and models within each of those factions. Mediocre solo rules for the skirmish version of a game that includes 20+ factions and a model range that includes everything from grots to titans is better than THE BEST RULES IN THE WORLD for a game that includes 5-10 factions with nothin but samey infantry and maybe a vehicle or two per faction.
(And it's 14 models, 7 for each team, same as you get in the Inquisitorial Agents box. Or the new Ork team seems to be 6 Orks and two Squigs, so I guess that box is awful too).
Well thanks for clarifying- I knew there were 7 DG models, but I'm so disinterested in this box I couldn't be bothered to double check the number of Marines. And you're right, there are other teams with fewer than ten models, and if you're a player of those teams, they're fine. I'm not saying any team is "awful" - I'm saying that a team that includes 10 models has more objective, cost-based value than a team that includes fewer than 10. If both of the teams in this box had been 10 man teams, it's value might have been higher. They aren't, so it isn't.
Pricing a product based on its rules rather than its production cost is another anti-consumer business practice that goes far beyond just being a problem with this box.
Yes, and by far the most egregious example of that is the £37.50 rulebook that we're arguing is good value!
I'm not saying the book is great value- its price IS higher than I'd like too. I'm saying that the full KT24 game cannot be played without it, and that my friend is an objective truth, not an opinion. If you are content playing less that the full game, there are cheaper ways to do that, and if a partial version of the game is all you're interested, yes, from that point of view, you can argue those other options are better value than the book.
But if your purpose in making a purchase is to play the full KT24 game, it can't be done without the BRB, so any option that doesn't include it has NO value, because it doesn't allow you to do the thing you want to do. The minis and terrain could cost $5- and hell, that's great value. But it doesn't get you any closer to being able to play the full version of KT24. If you want to do that, you must have (or have access to) the BRB.
(Also just realised because the Starter Set minis are from the Heroes release, every single one comes on its own sprue, so in terms of production costs, it's going to be more expensive than the Blooded sprues. Even though it's fewer mins.)
And yeah if you want to just play solo/co-op - best option is to buy a good solo or co-op game instead of one with rules just tacked on.
Games set in the 40k galaxy are the only miniature games that I'm interested in. No other company has the longevity and stability of GW, and no other games has such a variety of factions and models within each of those factions. Mediocre solo rules for the skirmish version of a game that includes 20+ factions and a model range that includes everything from grots to titans is better than THE BEST RULES IN THE WORLD for a game that includes 5-10 factions with nothin but samey infantry and maybe a vehicle or two per faction.
I'm pretty sure he meant non-miniature-wargaming games. We live in the Golden Age of board games and if you only stick to GW games, I promise you, you have no idea how far game design has progressed in the last 10-15 years. It's like being a tabletop gaming Amish and not realising it. And that includes solo designs - from small, incredibly smart designs like Aeon's End or Paleo to mammoths the likes of Aeon Tresspass Odyssey or Oathsworn.
GW's automa for KT24 in comparison is, honestly, an equivalent of the Game of Goose. Literal stone age of automa designs.
Can't wait to lay my hands on new Undaunted:Callisto for solo play, btw! Although, I should first open my SAS:Rogue Regiment megabox...
NAVARRO wrote: So you guys telling that the new KT solo rules are mediocre?
Can someone explain how a company with the resources of GW cannot make this right?
They are first and foremost a miniatures company and that is their primary concern. Game systems are supported only so far as they enhance sales of the miniatures.
Again, learn to play videos do not include the whole game. No video is going to give you the rules for ALL of the Tac-ops/ crit ops, nor will it give you a large enough selection of missions using full rules to keep you entertained.
What you need to play the whole game is the BRB, a team and an opponent
My point is only one of you needs that rulebook. You're saying you don't need a second team because you can assume your opponent has one. I'm saying in that case, may as well assume your opponent has the rulebook as well then. You don't need all the tac / crit ops to learn the game, just one of you needs it for setup (or you can get the card pack). Or you can assume you need half a rulebook each I guess, if we want to do this statistically.
I dunno, I come from the board gaming world, we regularly play games with four or five players and we don't all have a copy of the rulebook. One is fine. Especially when that rulebook costs more than most of those games I play! Wargaming is different in that you need the rules for your models, sure, and it's expected that every player brings the rules for their models. But the KTBRB doesn't have those rules in it. You need one for set-up and perhaps as a reference if you forget a rule. But you don't need one each. You just don't.
If you want to play at the kitchen table with friends who are not KT players then obviously you do. But you also need more than one team for that as well.
Games set in the 40k galaxy are the only miniature games that I'm interested in. No other company has the longevity and stability of GW, and no other games has such a variety of factions and models within each of those factions. Mediocre solo rules for the skirmish version of a game that includes 20+ factions and a model range that includes everything from grots to titans is better than THE BEST RULES IN THE WORLD for a game that includes 5-10 factions with nothin but samey infantry and maybe a vehicle or two per faction.
If that's what you want, sure. But if you enjoy that sort of solo gameplay I'd encourage you to think about what you want, what in it you really enjoy, and I can probably recommend some board games that you'd absolutely love.
I mean I can give you mediocre solo rules for 40K if you want:
Just set up two sides and play them against each other.
Honestly the KT solo rules are not much better than that. They basically read like the sort of well-meaning board gamer who converts a game utterly unsuitable for solo play into a solo game. It's probably not a bad way to learn how a new team plays I guess, but... I was pretty excited for it when announced and then massively dissappointed. (And because they use generic profiles for the enemies, I don't expect it to get any better with future expansion)
NAVARRO wrote: So you guys telling that the new KT solo rules are mediocre?
Can someone explain how a company with the resources of GW cannot make this right?
It was a quick and cheap bolt-on, rather than something they focussed a lot of attention on? Possibly, one day we'll get a full solo expansion book that adds more to the bare-bones in the base book.
NAVARRO wrote: So you guys telling that the new KT solo rules are mediocre?
Can someone explain how a company with the resources of GW cannot make this right?
I don't know how they do it but GW have managed to leave a lot of money on the table when it comes to solo-gaming. Black Library could easily have it's very own "Fighting Fantasy" series of books, and Five Parsecs/Leagues and Rangers of Shadowdeep should have inspired them to do their own such games in the 40K and AOS settings. GW also had a great thing going with FFG with card games of Quest and Space Hulk, but for whatever reason they parted ways.
They should at least be doing a lot more with Warhammer Quest...
kodos wrote: thing is GW just doesn't care about gaming or rules outside as vehicle to sell more models
specially as community works for free, so why should GW invest money to add something that the people can do for free to support them
I don't think that's 100% true, but yeah, GW makes it money selling models so it's rules writing tends to follow model sales. It has made stabs at building games from the ground up based on rules (underworlds), but they never took off. OTOHGW will sometimes create enormous amounts of rules for stuff that you know made almost no money, for example, Warcry 1st edition had tons of books with campaigns and all kinds of rules and basically nobody played it, lol.
I do think GW does still often operate on a "we make what we feel like" philosophy way more than people realize.
what we know from some of the designers, the best games GW makes are those were the designer doesn't do what GW asks for but their own stuff (like playtesting the game private at home to flesh things out) and certain addons or new rules often happen after the original designer left
and Underworlds did took off, just not in the wider "Warhammer" hobby because buying warbands to get a specific card to use on a different warband serves a very different target audience
same as Warcry 1st edition was well received, just that the usual handling of follow up released didn't go well with the original players
burn and churn isn't always working in GWs favour, specially with those niche games in a less known and/or liked setting
people just don't care enough about the AoS background to accept those things, while in 40k, people don't care about the game as long as it is in the 40k universe (as PenitentJake made clear above)
long story short, for AoSGW needs to make a good game because people care more about gaming than the setting, while for 40k it doesn't matter if the game is good or bad as people only care about the setting (and those people who want a good 40k game and see GW responsible in making one are usually turned away as haters or worse)
SamusDrake wrote: Black Library could easily have it's very own "Fighting Fantasy" series of books
The Black Library did do a range of solo gamebooks - even got Jonathan Green to write them! - but I guess they didn't sell well enough to become a fixture.
Well, it sold out within an hour on the GW webstore.
Just think of all those brand new players to KT, just coincidentally doing their GW shopping in that 1 specific hour picking up the new starter. So many new players to KT incoming.
Gimgamgoo wrote: Well, it sold out within an hour on the GW webstore.
Just think of all those brand new players to KT, just coincidentally doing their GW shopping in that 1 specific hour picking up the new starter. So many new players to KT incoming.
/sigh
Well, I'm an established warhammer-er but I haven't dabbled in kill team since 2 editions ago (might be 3). I'd have bought it if the apparently crappy solo play options were in it.
Gimgamgoo wrote: Well, it sold out within an hour on the GW webstore.
Just think of all those brand new players to KT, just coincidentally doing their GW shopping in that 1 specific hour picking up the new starter. So many new players to KT incoming.
/sigh
Did it? I'm sure it was still listed when I checked in the middle of the week. It'll be reprinted anyway. As much as people dismissed it, lots of people really wanted those minis.
Gimgamgoo wrote: Well, it sold out within an hour on the GW webstore.
Just think of all those brand new players to KT, just coincidentally doing their GW shopping in that 1 specific hour picking up the new starter. So many new players to KT incoming.
/sigh
Did it? I'm sure it was still listed when I checked in the middle of the week. It'll be reprinted anyway. As much as people dismissed it, lots of people really wanted those minis.
Sorry, my bad, I thought it had gone up this morning. It was showing in my new pre-orders section. I guess it was last weeks'.
My point was that like most GW stuff called 'starter', it sells out to the existing players and barely any brand new players get their hands on it.
Gimgamgoo wrote: Well, it sold out within an hour on the GW webstore.
Just think of all those brand new players to KT, just coincidentally doing their GW shopping in that 1 specific hour picking up the new starter. So many new players to KT incoming.
/sigh
Did it? I'm sure it was still listed when I checked in the middle of the week. It'll be reprinted anyway. As much as people dismissed it, lots of people really wanted those minis.
Sorry, my bad, I thought it had gone up this morning. It was showing in my new pre-orders section. I guess it was last weeks'.
My point was that like most GW stuff called 'starter', it sells out to the existing players and barely any brand new players get their hands on it.
Aren't new players more likely to pick the box up at a hobby store, bookstore or toy store rather than directly from the company's website anyway?
This has come up with starter boxes before - relatively scarce online, but tons on the shelves of retailers, because that's how GW prioritized distribution.
that is the point, any product that sells out on pre-order online with only few copies making to the store at all, isn't really anything new players will buy
because new players hardly ever start exactly at release or wait for something to come back in stock after months
the local store has Hivestorm as sold out and the starter set on backorder
so we are back to buying the Rulebook and a random team as the best value to start, not just because it is the most useful but also the only thing left to buy
SamusDrake wrote: Black Library could easily have it's very own "Fighting Fantasy" series of books
The Black Library did do a range of solo gamebooks - even got Jonathan Green to write them! - but I guess they didn't sell well enough to become a fixture.
SamusDrake wrote: Black Library could easily have it's very own "Fighting Fantasy" series of books
The Black Library did do a range of solo gamebooks - even got Jonathan Green to write them! - but I guess they didn't sell well enough to become a fixture.
They did? I must've completely missed those.
Man, it's quite hard to find evidence they existed online - they're called 'Path to Victory', and there's a list of them here. Good luck getting a copy!
They will reprint it surely? Is meant to be the starter for the entire edition.
I think however cynical some were about this set, the reality is if they'd put out a box that was Space Marines Heroes Season 3 and 4 with those 14 minis and no Kill Team stuff for £57.50 it would have sold out on its own.
Seems like more typical GW thoughtlessness with the ‘cheap’ starter. It can’t grow Kill Team, if no one can get it…. I bet almost everyone that got it was just for the models, and probably threw everything else in the box out. So model hoarders win, people curious about Kill Team lose. And GW is like ‘it sold out, so who cares who bought it…’
Which is something I think people are overlooking in the value discussion. To the consumer, there have been and continue to be better options if you are ready to go full-in on Kill Team. However, an edition long Starter Set that consist of 14 character sprues, MDF terrain, Cardboard tokens, and a few slim manuals is a great production option for GW. It keeps the starter set of taking valuable production time for plastic terrain or accessory sprues. Instead, everything other than the in-house model production can be done locally in the UK with little difficulty.
alextroy wrote: Which is something I think people are overlooking in the value discussion. To the consumer, there have been and continue to be better options if you are ready to go full-in on Kill Team. However, an edition long Starter Set that consist of 14 character sprues, MDF terrain, Cardboard tokens, and a few slim manuals is a great production option for GW. It keeps the starter set of taking valuable production time for plastic terrain or accessory sprues. Instead, everything other than the in-house model production can be done locally in the UK with little difficulty.
I think little difficulty isn't entirely honest either here. The sheer volume of "temporarily out of stock" shows that their production rates are stillsuffering atm, so whilst it wouldn't matter if they cast this kit or another one, it's all a balancing act of opportunity cost.
alextroy wrote: Which is something I think people are overlooking in the value discussion. To the consumer, there have been and continue to be better options if you are ready to go full-in on Kill Team. However, an edition long Starter Set that consist of 14 character sprues, MDF terrain, Cardboard tokens, and a few slim manuals is a great production option for GW. It keeps the starter set of taking valuable production time for plastic terrain or accessory sprues. Instead, everything other than the in-house model production can be done locally in the UK with little difficulty.
I think little difficulty isn't entirely honest either here. The sheer volume of "temporarily out of stock" shows that their production rates are stillsuffering atm, so whilst it wouldn't matter if they cast this kit or another one, it's all a balancing act of opportunity cost.
Yes. Cannot image the nightmare to outsource most of the box to different companies, MDF, Carton, Print etc Only takes one of the external suppliers to fail and the box will not be complete and cannot be on the shelfs. Little control.
The best way to play this game is buy the BRB and use your existing collection. And the best thing to do with this starter is not buy it so that GW never get the idea that people will tolerate this this kind of BS.
Sorry, GW already has this idea.....
My not buying it? That has nothing to do with a desire to send them some sort of message. It has everything to do with it being a product I have no need for.
Rules? I've already bought the new rulebook.
Marines? I've already got plenty of Marines. Not these EXACT models, but if I wanted to play this KT I have everything I'd need in my collection.
Death Guard? I've already got plenty of DG. Including all but 1 of those sculpts. And that 1 sculpt? I didn't deem it necessary to have the 1st time around. I still don't need it.
A bit of MDF terrain? Pfff. I've got terrain. As do the shops where I play. These bits would just get discarded.
Lathe Biosas wrote: I know this sounds kinda dumb, but I'm not going to buy the new edition until I know I can play my army.
I know that the response is usually; "but you only need a few more models to play Kill Team."
Unfortunately, unless they let me make a Space Marine Lieutenants Kill Team, I can't afford to start another army.
Wow I sound kinda cranky. I should probably turn in for the evening.
Why don't you know already? You can just read the current team rules for free on GWs site.
If you've got a Primaris based SM army you can definitely play KT - without ever buying another model. You just pull a Capt/Lt + 5 more guys out of your case when it's KT time.
I honestly didn't know. I'll go check it out this morning.
Remember I've been out of the gaming scene since the tail end of 5th Edition. I'm not used to GW giving away free rules, unless they were due to horrific misprints ( aka the Necromunda book that came with a bunch of free white pages in the middle instead of rules).
Lathe Biosas wrote: I know this sounds kinda dumb, but I'm not going to buy the new edition until I know I can play my army.
I know that the response is usually; "but you only need a few more models to play Kill Team."
Unfortunately, unless they let me make a Space Marine Lieutenants Kill Team, I can't afford to start another army.
Wow I sound kinda cranky. I should probably turn in for the evening.
I'll be that guy, it's not an army you need, it's 1 box in reality. I'd never comment on people's circumstances, but it is one of the cheapest GW games to partake in if you have a group who already have the book/tokens etc.
I'll be that guy, it's not an army you need, it's 1 box in reality. I'd never comment on people's circumstances, but it is one of the cheapest GW games to partake in if you have a group who already have the book/tokens etc.
To quote Michael Corleone in "The Godfather Part III... Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in."
They seem to have a gimmick that there's a bunch of levers they can pull to make your day worse once you've been hit by a plague weapon and got a poison token (on top of it dealing a wound each subsequent turn).
All of them basically boil down to “do this unless they have a poison token; then do it more” don’t they?
Will say they should have just put Toxic in the general rules next to Poison though.
I don't understand how this starter box has become the crisis point people believe it to be. the box only just released. of course it's going to take a little while for it to get restocked on the shelves. GW isn't suddenly pivoting all their production capabilities for this one starter box which will remain in print for the edition. just be a little patient and the sky won't fall
StudentOfEtherium wrote: I don't understand how this starter box has become the crisis point people believe it to be. the box only just released. of course it's going to take a little while for it to get restocked on the shelves. GW isn't suddenly pivoting all their production capabilities for this one starter box which will remain in print for the edition. just be a little patient and the sky won't fall
Crisis? Dont know what you're on about.
As for a Starter released now under the umbrella of the Christmas season, aimed at enticing new people to the game with an impulse buy... then it just missed all of that. There was not enough shelf time and the new peeps are totally unaware it even exists. I believe thats what people are on about. I mean everyone knows that in retail the golden quarter is what makes a huge part of the full year profit. If theres no availability theres no sale.
So February is when it's available again? It's not a patience game either the vets that sniped this, on the one week window it was available, are mostly covered and by then 3 or 4 months are gone in a 2 year lifecycle? Kinda pointless for a starter missing all the starting of the new edition.
Availability and specially during Christmas sales is crucial and GW has a lot of home work to do... thats all. No crisis.
Personally could care less its not like GW is particularly good at meeting demand and to be honest this box sucks a lot so good riddance I guess.
NAVARRO wrote: Personally could care less its not like GW is particularly good at meeting demand and to be honest this box sucks a lot so good riddance I guess.
A product you don't personally like does not necessarily make a bad product - just tthat it's not for you. I will agree on GW's continuing inability to predict demand so that there's some product available on launch day.
And in the same way they don't break boxes down and repack them for Christmas Battleforces, parakuribo, I'd be shocked if GW were unboxing Heroes boxes for this product - they're reusing the molds, that's all, but they'll be casting new product. I don't think I've seen anywhere with much of these two series available for quite a while - I'm about 90% sure I've not even seen anything from series 4 in person.
NAVARRO wrote: Personally could care less its not like GW is particularly good at meeting demand and to be honest this box sucks a lot so good riddance I guess.
A product you don't personally like does not necessarily make a bad product - just tthat it's not for you.
For me and I repeat personally it kind of does, I think I was clear now and before on this thread I explained the reasons.
If you told me that, for you, personally it's a great product because of whatever X reason, I would not come here and say - "dude your opinion does not make a good product". Thats kind of a silly remark. Leads to nothing. I would rather talk about the X and the Y than try to downplay someone else personal opinions.
StudentOfEtherium wrote: I don't understand how this starter box has become the crisis point people believe it to be. the box only just released. of course it's going to take a little while for it to get restocked on the shelves. GW isn't suddenly pivoting all their production capabilities for this one starter box which will remain in print for the edition. just be a little patient and the sky won't fall
The point is not whether it is ever coming back. The point is - Kill Team is hottest right now, as a new release. Will it be whenever it comes back? Kill Team is hot now because of some video game out there, and this set may have made some new players as an easy point of entry. But neckbeards enjoy gatekeeping, rather than giving someone else a chance to play. Last point, it’s the holidays. It’s again when visibility on this would have been maximum to non or casual gamers. But instead, there’s nothing, while the neckbeards have the models they wanted after throwing everything else from the box out.
GW not being able to reasonably forecast demand is becoming all too common. At least in the old days, it was always too little. Now they seem to be guessing too little, or way too many. The pallets of Skaventide that’ll probably be sitting around until Sigmar fifth edition have joined the chat…
It's not guessing too little, it's being able to manufacture too little. That's not a simple thing to fix overnight and we know they are expanding that capability.
I'd be curious how many people are actually new-new players and not 40k players desperate to get their mitts on what were previously FOMO models that sold out in five minutes.
kodos wrote: If there isn't enough capacity it is still a guessing problem as allocations need to more accurate
Same for paper/mdf
Not really, they are under on everything. I don't expect you'd be able to figure out the optimal split between things even in hindsight and with full knowledge of the sales.
kodos wrote: If there isn't enough capacity it is still a guessing problem as allocations need to more accurate
Same for paper/mdf
Not really, they are under on everything. I don't expect you'd be able to figure out the optimal split between things even in hindsight and with full knowledge of the sales.
The problem is capacity.
While only anecdotal, Skaventide would completely disprove your theory. GW either made way too many, or just MASSIVELY misjudged demand. They are on clearance just to get rid of them at three local stores. When was the last time you saw that with a major big box GW release? Alas, for poor people that might of thought about Kill Team, though. The model hoarders gobbled up all the sets that were supposed to be for them.
so they overestimate the AoS boxes and underestimated the KT boxes
so allocating less capacity to AoS and more to KT would have changed that, but because it isn't capacity but still guessing the demand, increasing production capacity would not change that and guessing wrong leading to the result we see here
The point is not whether it is ever coming back. The point is - Kill Team is hottest right now, as a new release. Will it be whenever it comes back? Kill Team is hot now because of some video game out there, and this set may have made some new players as an easy point of entry. But neckbeards enjoy gatekeeping, rather than giving someone else a chance to play. Last point, it’s the holidays. It’s again when visibility on this would have been maximum to non or casual gamers. But instead, there’s nothing, while the neckbeards have the models they wanted after throwing everything else from the box out.
I disagree on there being nothing. There's Hivestorm. That's still available. So there's a Kill Team starter still available to buy. It's a more expensive buy in, but last week we were all agreeing how it's by far the better product even with the price differential.
I'm not saying this is an ideal situation by any means. And not saying it isn't deeply weird that the actual edition-long starter has gone out of stock while the limited edition launch box is still available. But we're not in a position where there's literally no actual set for new players available at all. If Hivestorm sells out before this comes back, then I'd agree that's a disaster scenario. Especially if before Xmas.
People seem to be vastly overestimating how many people are buying it for the game over the obsessive marine collectors wanting their gacha they missed the first time.
The point is not whether it is ever coming back. The point is - Kill Team is hottest right now, as a new release. Will it be whenever it comes back? Kill Team is hot now because of some video game out there, and this set may have made some new players as an easy point of entry. But neckbeards enjoy gatekeeping, rather than giving someone else a chance to play. Last point, it’s the holidays. It’s again when visibility on this would have been maximum to non or casual gamers. But instead, there’s nothing, while the neckbeards have the models they wanted after throwing everything else from the box out.
I disagree on there being nothing. There's Hivestorm. That's still available. So there's a Kill Team starter still available to buy. It's a more expensive buy in, but last week we were all agreeing how it's by far the better product even with the price differential.
I'm not saying this is an ideal situation by any means. And not saying it isn't deeply weird that the actual edition-long starter has gone out of stock while the limited edition launch box is still available. But we're not in a position where there's literally no actual set for new players available at all. If Hivestorm sells out before this comes back, then I'd agree that's a disaster scenario. Especially if before Xmas.
Hivestorm's not selling out. It's plastered over a lot of third parties front pages. They're desperately trying to get rid of it.
Hivestorm's not selling out. It's plastered over a lot of third parties front pages. They're desperately trying to get rid of it.
In the UK at least Wayland are out, Element have it but at only 15% off - if they were desperate to get rid of it they'd presumably at least be offering the 20% they're allowed to.
Octarius stuck around for a long time as well, and so last edition the starter didn't sell out right away as it was just a sub-set of what was in that box. The ideal situation for GW is Hivestorm goes out of stock just at the point the teams and terrain are made available individually, which is usually when the next box comes out.
Inquisitor Gideon wrote: People seem to be vastly overestimating how many people are buying it for the game over the obsessive marine collectors wanting their gacha they missed the first time.
I didn't realise you'd managed to slip a survey in with the order confirmations, Gideon.
And you may be right, but there's no data either way at this point.
Went to a local shop today by chance and they had 6 copies of kill team. I grabbed one. Another sold as I was there along with the hivestorm (or whatever the other new set is). The store is not really a game store as much as comic and anime shop. They didn’t know there was any demand for the game.
Already assembled the Death Guard. Will read the rules tomorrow at work.
Hoping all these miniature collectors who will never play the game but bought the starter will hurry up and start selling their MDF terrain sheets on ebay for me then!
Arbitrator wrote: I'd be curious how many people are actually new-new players and not 40k players desperate to get their mitts on what were previously FOMO models that sold out in five minutes.
I got it for my kid because he wants to get into 40k.
I’m not at all into much of anything GW except Underworlds.
I had no idea the models were in high demand. I bought it because it contained 14 unique sculpts, had terrain my kid doesn’t have to paint, and all the stuff him and a buddy need to play for a really good price.
I figured it was a good jumping in point to 40k for him.
That and it’s not overwhelming in the number of models a kid needs to paint.
It’s an Xmas present and my LGS had 20 copies.
So I guess you can say that’s copy for a new player.
Ghool-Nice! I am very sure your kid will have a good time.
theophony- Figured that would be the case. If it has Batman or Sailor Moon at the front with GW in the back, my guess is anynone buying KT there has a good chance of either mostly buying GW, or just picking up the starter and not going back to that 'nerd/weeb' store. EVER.
Wanted it for the Eliminator and heavy as well as a way to learn the rules... thankfully I still have the Dark Imperium set I ordered before 9th was announced. I can just make a DG team by buying a box of Plague Marines amd my Plaguecaster. Sadly I don't think many others will have that option.
StudentOfEtherium wrote: I don't understand how this starter box has become the crisis point people believe it to be. the box only just released. of course it's going to take a little while for it to get restocked on the shelves. GW isn't suddenly pivoting all their production capabilities for this one starter box which will remain in print for the edition. just be a little patient and the sky won't fall
Not a crisis for the company. Very limiting for market penetration of game though. Chat to most retailers and they say the trade is front list driven. If it doesn't sell now, the buzz drops and the sales after that first month or two are always a fraction. Doesn't matter if it sells out or not, interest drops off rapidly once the cycle moves on and people are no longer talking about it. Sure some pick it up to play because friends are, but those sales are less than that initial splurge when many buy and never play.
Brutal & Kunnin up for preorder next week. I'll be getting that terrain and book, but will otherwise be passing on the box. Too much boxes already, and I dont need more teams.
Are the new boxes for kill team re-badging of old boxes or they were not available before?
I just noticed the old kasrkin box was updated to the new style but is not in the list on warhammer community.... I buy them for my IG army, not for Kill team.
Waaagh_Gonads wrote: Are the new boxes for kill team re-badging of old boxes or they were not available before?
I just noticed the old kasrkin box was updated to the new style but is not in the list on warhammer community.... I buy them for my IG army, not for Kill team.
As Shooter said, these are existing teams being reboxed with the tokens (and a price rise). This is the third wave of these reboxings for the new edition, Kasrkin were in the 2nd.
Prices for this week:
Brutal and Cunning is 110€ which is 5€ cheaper than Termination and the same price as Salvation so not bad as I would say the included terrain is better than the other two sets.
The Volkus terrain is 105€ on its own compared to 180€ included in the Hivestorm box so while obviously less value its not too bad if you have absolutely no use for anything else from Hivestorm.
Waaagh_Gonads wrote: Are the new boxes for kill team re-badging of old boxes or they were not available before?
I just noticed the old kasrkin box was updated to the new style but is not in the list on warhammer community.... I buy them for my IG army, not for Kill team.
It depends. The Vespids and the Tempestus Aquilons were first only in the Hivestorm launch box and are now available separately. The rest have been rebadged with the inevitable price increase.
First season undoubtedly gets the best support for any given edition.
I didnt want to buy the box, but getting only the book and terrain ended up costing more from ebay than the whole box from my LGS, so preordered. I'll need to sell off the teams now, which shouldnt be hard I reckon..
By the way, I stumbled onto these official Kill Team -branded display cases.. have these been posted yet? First batch is in MTO right now, ships after the new year.. Quite keen to add one for my Corsairs, if they ever get one
Nothing crazy special, but its really nice to have GW put out a video with kitbashed models. The traitor ratlings actually look pretty cool. Sort of a Necromunda vibe
So, is there anyone playing with Wreckas or Ratlings? So many people were interested in the set I guess there have been thousands of games going on among Dakka posters...
I was very excited for Wrecka Krewboyz, with all that randomness mitigation and potentially very fun, explosive abilities.
For me, it turns out raw damage and fun skills don't matter that much, unfortunately, in this case. The limiting factor is 2APL for such a small number of operatives.
In my games so far it was far too easy for my opponents to just stay out of range (6" + action). Most of the time the only way to attack was to wait for the opponent to attack and counter, which meant unfavourable trading started by the opoonent.
Elites with 3APL can move 9-10" and attack whenever they need flanking or closing to 2" to draw LOS to Concealed enemies.
Lower APL hordes can put less valuable operatives in front as bait to lose without it being a problem and then counter, trading favourably.
Wreckas can do neither. On ITD with all this door opening and losing 1" for moving through accessible it is even more tragic :( They don't even have a Comms effect to alleviate the problem of not being able to close the distance to attack.
I think their Nob should be 3APL with Get it Done! like the Kommando one. That would be a start.
So, what are your impressions from playing with B&C teams?
Wont be getting games in with either team anytime soon. My Killteam projects always end up being multi-year projects on the build department alone.. I was thinking of selling off my Ratlings, but then I saw all their bitz and changed my mind! Their spare rifles will be great for making kitbashed "retro" guns for Necromunda Squat prospectors (hoping to build a squat unit for 2nd ed 40K souping one day), and that radio they got looks much better than the radio bit we get from the standard equipment sprue..
I did kind of wonder how bad these teams would be on Gallowdark / Bheta-Decima missions. CYRAC said both teams are hard to play well, and Wrecka Krew teams sort of need two boxes worth of operatives in order to stay competitive against all comers.. Ratlings are apparently useless without the Ogryns as well
Wreckas don't need two boxes to have all the options, just magnets. In their case it is particularly easy to do. Connection points are big (propa ork shoulders!), arms already have hollow spaces where magnets usually go (they need just very little digging with a knife) and the big carapace-style armour hides any imperfections in lining the pieces up. Easy work even for a beginner.
But in my opinion it's not the lack of options that is their problem.
Also it's worth noting, CYRAC's so called "reviews" seem to be made after very few or even no games played with the team in question. They are just videos rushed out as quickly as possible for views. So I wouldn't pay too much attention to those.
CYRAC's won at least one larger KT21 tournament, which is more than I can ever say for myself. So I take his opinions more seriously than random players'.
Oh, I value his opinion on things he has already played, like tournament reports, tier lists or balance ideas. No doubt here!
The "reviews after zero games with the team" aka "I will just read the text of the rules aloud for 20minutes adding some untested shower thoughts" are just pure viewbait. I'd love to see those after a couple of weeks after the release of those teams, but that's not what YT algorithms reward. Actually it's his videos among others that inspired this thread of mine: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/815297.page
Anyway, the "two box Wreckas" is just not true, magnets do the job just fine.
It had a very good side effect, though, which unfortunately was binned by KT24 - uniformity of ranges. If a weapon was short ranged you just KNEW it's 6". No need to check, no need to remember. Very elegant, very smooth. Clean code, love it!
Now you don't know. Maybe it's 8" but maybe it's 7". And this operative actually has 9"... Unnecessary mental load, unnecessary mistakes with differences that don't affect the game state, just increase pointless bloat of granularity. User Interface be damned.
But to be fair, my group used inches in KT21 anyway, as they were provided on Wahapedia, which we used for rules.
I have exactly 3 Ogre Kingdoms Bulls in my bits box. They've been there for 15 years or so - I was building a fully converted LatD army but never managed to finish a full 10-ogryn unit. They will come in handy now
Cyel wrote: So, nobody, really? So many people here obsess about buying the stuff and now nobody is playing anyway?
Some of use dont get all that many games in, for one reason or another. Another thing is GWs release churn, I still haven't played all the Gallowdark missions from KT21 S2, and I have AT18 and LI games to play before I can hope to get anywhere near Brutal & Kunning missions
You kind of have to buy the stuff as soon as its out, or risk losing out entirely, or paying triple for the hard to get stuff because of scalpers. in the case of KT24, the campaign books and terrain (required to play the missions) is pretty much 100% FOMO, even if the team rules themselves are in the app for everyone to enjoy. I've read many people lament the lack of availability of Gallowdark specific extra terrain, I was fortunate myself to be able to both afford and have access to all the 4 boxes, but a lot of folks who were on the fence can never get them now..
Cyel wrote: So, nobody, really? So many people here obsess about buying the stuff and now nobody is playing anyway?
I must say that the so-op mode is what interests me, but aside from the odd sniper scenario...GW has been too quiet on that front. Apparently there's something new in the upcoming White Dwarf...
Cyel wrote: So, nobody, really? So many people here obsess about buying the stuff and now nobody is playing anyway?
My local shop got shorted & I missed getting the set by 1 slot on their reserve list. :(
So for now I'm just waiting on the Ratlings to be released on thier own.
(I'm sure I could find thier rules online, probably on GW, pull old ratlings from my IG cases, & play - but I've got other things to do atm....)
The Orks I don't really care about.
Guilty as charged! I was eager to play my Wreckas and to start the narrative campaign in which I am using them, so jsut after Christmas I put them on the table with only a couple of basic colours ...
But they are look a lot better now, much closer to being finished. The Squigs, which I quickly Contrasted for table readiness in these games, have been fully repainted, for example.
You kind of have to buy the stuff as soon as its out, or risk losing out entirely, or paying triple for the hard to get stuff because of scalpers. in the case of KT24, the campaign books and terrain (required to play the missions) is pretty much 100% FOMO, even if the team rules themselves are in the app for everyone to enjoy. I've read many people lament the lack of availability of Gallowdark specific extra terrain, I was fortunate myself to be able to both afford and have access to all the 4 boxes, but a lot of folks who were on the fence can never get them now..
Pfft.
You don't need to spend a dime on GW terrain to play any sort of KT. Let alone pay some scalper 3x retail for it.
All you have to do is invest some time & effort into building your own.
Or talk to someone with a 3d printer.
Or a combination of the two...
You kind of have to buy the stuff as soon as its out, or risk losing out entirely, or paying triple for the hard to get stuff because of scalpers. in the case of KT24, the campaign books and terrain (required to play the missions) is pretty much 100% FOMO, even if the team rules themselves are in the app for everyone to enjoy. I've read many people lament the lack of availability of Gallowdark specific extra terrain, I was fortunate myself to be able to both afford and have access to all the 4 boxes, but a lot of folks who were on the fence can never get them now..
Pfft.
You don't need to spend a dime on GW terrain to play any sort of KT. Let alone pay some scalper 3x retail for it.
All you have to do is invest some time & effort into building your own.
Or talk to someone with a 3d printer.
Or a combination of the two...
The missions in the campaign books use a specific terrain layout, which uses the included terrain which came in the box. Obviously one is free to ignore all that and use whatever, but thats not how I like to play those missions.
Of course I dont need to spend a dime on anything if I dont want to. I could just use the free app and poorhammer my way through the games with bits of coloured paper and empty cans of youghurt turned upside down. Guess I'm just a chump /s
Anyways, speaking of solo play and joint ops, I was just watching this GMG batrep of one game. Thought it worth posting in this thread since the joint ops have not been discussed so much in detail so far..
You kind of have to buy the stuff as soon as its out, or risk losing out entirely, or paying triple for the hard to get stuff because of scalpers. in the case of KT24, the campaign books and terrain (required to play the missions) is pretty much 100% FOMO, even if the team rules themselves are in the app for everyone to enjoy. I've read many people lament the lack of availability of Gallowdark specific extra terrain, I was fortunate myself to be able to both afford and have access to all the 4 boxes, but a lot of folks who were on the fence can never get them now..
Pfft.
You don't need to spend a dime on GW terrain to play any sort of KT. Let alone pay some scalper 3x retail for it.
All you have to do is invest some time & effort into building your own.
Or talk to someone with a 3d printer.
Or a combination of the two...
The missions in the campaign books use a specific terrain layout, which uses the included terrain which came in the box. Obviously one is free to ignore all that and use whatever, but thats not how I like to play those missions.
Of course I dont need to spend a dime on anything if I dont want to. I could just use the free app and poorhammer my way through the games with bits of coloured paper and empty cans of youghurt turned upside down. Guess I'm just a chump /s
I didn't say ignore the missions & terrain layouts.
You build your terrain to match what's needed. I'd think that'd be obvious....
And bitz of paper & empty cans (though empty cans do make an excellent stating point )? Really?
Learn some modeling skills & you won't have anything resembling an over turned yogurt cup.
Hey, don't badmouth empty cans! I even finished painting some a couple of days ago (first 2025 project finished ...damn, calling it that doesn't sound that well now...) to go with my ITD walls when I want to use them for a more open board.
I'm a terrain nut. I try to buy at least one kit of every different flavour of scifi terrain GW makes. I spend more money on my terrain than some people spend on their army. scratch-built terrain rarely looks as good to me. I think the most impressive terrain builds I've seen over the years are always a mix of GW terrain bits and some scratch built stuff around them for fleshing things out.
Cyel wrote: Hey, don't badmouth empty cans! I even finished painting some a couple of days ago (first 2025 project finished ...damn, calling it that doesn't sound that well now...) to go with my ITD walls when I want to use them for a more open board.
Tin cans are a terrain evergreen for a reason!
That is incredible!
Far beyond my skills, but enough to be inspiring !
Far beyond my skills, but enough to be inspiring !
Thank you!
But... I am normally not into saying "oh, it's nothing special" but in this case it absolutely is and it isn't beyond anyone's skills. There's not a single careful, deliberate brushstroke there, it's crude, simple tools applied in a crude, simple manner in the minimum of time. For example for the cans themselves it's black spray on everything, some white spray from the top (zenithal), then slapping on two Contrast paints (orange and brown) with a big, old brush, some transfers and then applying more orange and silver with a piece ripped out of a bathroom sponge.
Well, we had a finely tuned over many years of balancing, very well working game with MAYBE a couple of very minor changes left for it to be perfect.
So naturally GW decided it's time to throw it all in the trash bin and create a new edition that introduces a lot of unnecessary changes for the worse, doesn't even introduce these few that MAYBE were desirable and throws the entire balance of factions through the window in one fell swoop (even though during KT21 they kept saying balance changes are done with extreme care to avoid overtuning).
Balance-wise, it's very bad. Elite teams are vastly too strong with Legionaries and Warpcoven to the extreme. A lot of teams are lagging behind the median in an extreme way too.
My other gameplay criticisms (note:unlike the balance issues, these are subjective) were voiced twice in this thread already, with zero discussion: everybody apparently only in the business of buying not playing this game. I am not going to reapeat it for the third time just to hear crickets again.
Weird, as in my country KT is the bees knees, probably beating AoS in popularity. On Dakka all KT topics in the "other gw games" section are ignored in favour of 10mm scale games.
Cyel wrote: Balance-wise, it's very bad. Elite teams are vastly too strong with Legionaries and Warpcoven to the extreme. A lot of teams are lagging behind the median in an extreme way too.
My other gameplay criticisms (note:unlike the balance issues, these are subjective) were voiced twice in this thread already, with zero discussion: everybody apparently only in the business of buying not playing this game. I am not going to reapeat it for the third time just to hear crickets again.
Weird, as in my country KT is the bees knees, probably beating AoS in popularity. On Dakka all KT topics in the "other gw games" section are ignored in favour of 10mm scale games.
Can't comment on the balance as I don't play the game, which brings me neatly to the second point: I got two of the new sets each because I liked the models, including the terrain.
I looked at the rules and didn't really feel it. I liked the old Kill Team based of 8th edition with the build options and character progression. New edition with the specialist is just to much stuff to keep track of during a game. I get the models either for my 40k armies or for playing 5 parsecs from home.
I also can't really comment on local popularity, I only play with two friends and then we spend the day on a big battle and not just 20 models sneaking through predefined terrain. One of them tried to look into Kill Team but the rules just didn't really scratch the itch I guess.
Cyel wrote: Balance-wise, it's very bad. Elite teams are vastly too strong with Legionaries and Warpcoven to the extreme. A lot of teams are lagging behind the median in an extreme way too.
My other gameplay criticisms (note:unlike the balance issues, these are subjective) were voiced twice in this thread already, with zero discussion: everybody apparently only in the business of buying not playing this game. I am not going to reapeat it for the third time just to hear crickets again.
Weird, as in my country KT is the bees knees, probably beating AoS in popularity. On Dakka all KT topics in the "other gw games" section are ignored in favour of 10mm scale games.
From what I have seen, I agree with you about the Legionaires; haven't seen the Warpcoven in action. I don't have enough experience with this edition to have anything more to add at this time.
Also don't think the news and rumors thread is the place to really discuss the rules and you highlight the issue with Dakka in regards to most other games.
tauist wrote: Is it all because of the new reaction mechanics? Elite teams being constantly out-activated probably benefit the most from those
It is several different things and what you mention is just one of them. Marines got more wounds across all their factions, and there's been a general decrease in the availability and efficiency of Armour Piercing (one of the changes I don't like as it decreases player agency in mitigating randomness).
Both Legionaries and Warpcoven have access to a Ploy that further decreases AP by 1 step and also to operatives with 2+ save. This combined makes them nigh impossible to injure, not to mention kill by almost everything in the game. Their offence on the other hand is flexible and universally good.
I see. I wasnt aware that existing teams got such heavy-handed changes to their stats. Any changes in P1 availability or wounds count will already require hefty rebalancing. Why did they feel the need to mess em up? Plain dumb if ya ask me.. And operatives with a 2+ save? I dont recall 2+ saves even existing in KT21.. No wonder you're pissed off.
Or there’s just a bunch of whiners that don’t actually play any games at all. Just complain on the internet ceaselessly about what they read somewhere else on the internet. Is KT24 perfectly balanced? Of course not. However it is fun, playable, and improved over KT21. Play more; cry less.
I'm not yet convinced about the "improved over KT21" though. KT21 balance was very good and generally praised. Adding faction cards and faction tokens isnt all that big of a deal IMHO, and last season of KT21 already added those. You could add joint ops to KT21 as well. That just leaves reactions and the new LOS rules.. are those really gamechanging in yur opinion?
totalfailure wrote: Or there’s just a bunch of whiners that don’t actually play any games at all. Just complain on the internet ceaselessly about what they read somewhere else on the internet. Is KT24 perfectly balanced? Of course not. However it is fun, playable, and improved over KT21. Play more; cry less.
I didn't realise there was a Diplomacy check in KT24 that someone could manage to roll a natural 1 on, but you learn something new every day.
I played my Legionaries just once this edition - against friend's Vespid.
It wasn't either fun, playable or improved over KT21 in any way.
He managed to kill only one of my models and I played totally carelessly (to prove a point, as we also had a player saying "Legionaries are fine" in our group), just standing in the open at will, always on Engage, as if they had no care in the world. I tabled him.
That was the only time I played marines in KT24 out of all the games in this edition I've already had.
Other changes I don't like - like non-interactive scoring or quantum equipment or team rule changes, or bad Tac Ops or terrible ITD maps, or half-assed solutions to Initiative and Obscurity - I agree are subjective and there may be players who could argue in their favour. But balance needs corrections badly. Tournament results confirm that. The thing that disappoints the most is how good it was before being thrown in the dump and how much of that good work of balancing in KT21 got wasted.
I always hear great things about GW customer service, but I have to share a bad experience with them that is currently ongoing.
I picked up a copy of Kill team Salvation from the local shop. Sealed, not used/resold. Everything was fine except the bases, looks like the wrong pouch of bases were in the box as there were 21 25mm bases and 2 20mm bases in the box with no 28mm or 32mm bases. I checked them all against the instruction booklet in the box to make sure.
GW is wanting me to return the whole box to the local shop to get a replacement. I had already assembled and painted the terrain and the Striking scorpions (using bases from another project). The shop does not have another box of this set (out of production) and not even available online through them. 4 emails back and forth so far. Not super happy. I always hear great things, but this is not one of those times.
Theophony wrote: I always hear great things about GW customer service, but I have to share a bad experience with them that is currently ongoing.
I picked up a copy of Kill team Salvation from the local shop. Sealed, not used/resold. Everything was fine except the bases, looks like the wrong pouch of bases were in the box as there were 21 25mm bases and 2 20mm bases in the box with no 28mm or 32mm bases. I checked them all against the instruction booklet in the box to make sure.
GW is wanting me to return the whole box to the local shop to get a replacement. I had already assembled and painted the terrain and the Striking scorpions (using bases from another project). The shop does not have another box of this set (out of production) and not even available online through them. 4 emails back and forth so far. Not super happy. I always hear great things, but this is not one of those times.
Just my 2cents.
I had something similar for Kill Team Hivestorm where many of the sprues had crushed and broken parts (for sure not happened during shipping, probably something heavy was placed on them at the factory) and their first answer was also that I can only contact the shop I bought it from since it wasn't bought from GW directly which also could only refund me since they didn't have any more in stock.
But after a few more back and forths they agreed to send me replacements and I got complete sprues for all that where damaged so I'd try a little more and see if GW also does the same for you.
Of course it could be different since I'm in europe while you are in the USA so maybe different regulations but I wouldn't give up hope yet
Just what the title implies: Noise Marines / Emperors Children Kill Team Please! We have Chaos Space Marines of a vew flavors already, including my favorite: Nemesis Claw (Night Lords), and Death Guard... Now that Noise Marines/EC have been released with new models: Me Want Kill Team! Any rumours out there? Too soon?
As GW wasn't kind enough to provide a balance patch for the LVO, the organisers created one themselves I grew up with such patches and comp systems in old editions of WFB and 40k so an unofficial initative like that is something normal for me, but I do not see such things often nowadays. Kudos for Squad Games for doing the sensible thing.
I can't find the rules for this pack, though, so no idea how impactful it really is.
Well, it turns out Squad Games weren't as brave as I thought they might have been and these were just simple quality of life changes. More like judges' clarifications, useful but nothing that actually deals with the problem.
So yeah, out of 6 Warpcoven teams in the 138-player tournament, 3 were in the top ten and they took both first and second.
I think I'll stick with KT21 for the time being then. I can easily adopt joint ops gameplay to KT21, and nobody in our group is interested in playing the KT24-only factions so far
But what do you mean "rotated in"? That you can play them? Teams do not rotate in. You can play them at any events as soon as they are released.
Some teams from the start of the previous edition are going to rotate OUT of the "roster of teams", but only out of competitive events and only some of them (nobody can stop a TO from allowing any teams they want). They will still be supported in the app, with balance changes etc at least until the end of the edition.
Any leaks about future releases? I remember there were pretty accurate leaks about Vespid, drop Guardsmen, Tankbustas and Ratlings months before their release.
both KT and warcry seem to be very quiet lately, the latter especially so
they made a whole big deal about the new edition, and switching to an explicit seasons and rotation model, for KT, and a three year clock for editions, and then have spent like six months doing nothing
Cyel wrote: Any leaks about future releases? I remember there were pretty accurate leaks about Vespid, drop Guardsmen, Tankbustas and Ratlings months before their release.
No hard leaks atm, but the current rumours are GK vs WE up next, with Tyranids at some point later.
We got the first box in September and the next in December. If the plan is quarterly releases then March should be the next one, once the 40k backlog has cleared a little.
xttz wrote: No hard leaks atm, but the current rumours are GK vs WE up next, with Tyranids at some point later.
Good to hear about World Eaters, as they're absence from the game has been noticeable. In fact, I don't know if Khorne Berzerkers have been playable in any recent editions of KT.
Also, when are the Gellerpox coming back in stock? I really want to play that team.
xttz wrote: No hard leaks atm, but the current rumours are GK vs WE up next, with Tyranids at some point later.
Good to hear about World Eaters, as they're absence from the game has been noticeable. In fact, I don't know if Khorne Berzerkers have been playable in any recent editions of KT.
they didn't even have a compendium team last edition
Do berserkers fit the “tactical combat” setup of KT? Can you imagine someone with a working brain trying to order them to capture an objective that can’t be murdered? Or sneak in any way?
Like a basic rule would almost have to be that they can’t be given conceal orders ever.
xttz wrote: No hard leaks atm, but the current rumours are GK vs WE up next, with Tyranids at some point later.
Good to hear about World Eaters, as they're absence from the game has been noticeable. In fact, I don't know if Khorne Berzerkers have been playable in any recent editions of KT.
Also, when are the Gellerpox coming back in stock? I really want to play that team.
Do note that the current rumours for that team is that it is more Khorne than World Eaters, perhaps being a mix of mortals, daemons and perhaps Astartes.
xttz wrote: No hard leaks atm, but the current rumours are GK vs WE up next, with Tyranids at some point later.
Good to hear about World Eaters, as they're absence from the game has been noticeable. In fact, I don't know if Khorne Berzerkers have been playable in any recent editions of KT.
Also, when are the Gellerpox coming back in stock? I really want to play that team.
Do note that the current rumours for that team is that it is more Khorne than World Eaters, perhaps being a mix of mortals, daemons and perhaps Astartes.
If it is GK vs Khorne, it could be a way for GW to get both a GK kit redone before their codex release, and give World Eaters a new unit or two if their own Codex will be model light, since KT releases don't officially take up 40K release slots.
alextroy wrote: Kill Team would be the perfect place to release the spoken of, but never seen World Eaters shooting unit. Khorne is not all about Chainaxes!
There has to be some higher thinking World Eaters floating around... someone has to be the one who has figured out how to corrall Kharn, load him back on the ship for future redeployment.
alextroy wrote: Kill Team would be the perfect place to release the spoken of, but never seen World Eaters shooting unit. Khorne is not all about Chainaxes!
There has to be some higher thinking World Eaters floating around... someone has to be the one who has figured out how to corrall Kharn, load him back on the ship for future redeployment.
I mean my preferred option there would have been that there isn't. They're all berserkers and all complete loons.
But they are favoured by Khorne and the blood will definitely flow when they are unleashed, so you have cults dedicated to capturing them and unleashing them for the Glory of Khorne!
Maybe some aspirants are recognised as being blood thirsty enough that the World Eaters don't kill them first while there are other enemies to kill, so those guys can get implanted with the geneseed to make more 'knock off' World eaters. But every cult has a bunch of those, if you want a real following and to be taken seriously as a 'World Eater's Warband leader, you'd better have a few originals to throw out to please the crowds.
A kill team based around unleashing one of these monsters, a few aspirants hoping to be recognised/anointed and then the support, hangers on and daemonic "camp followers" feeding in their wake could certainly be interesting.
Maybe some sort of unit of lesser favored, who arent just kill maim burn, but are assigned as snipers/rocketeers who are pushed by Khorne to hunt down enemy cowards who hide in back lines and make others do their fighting for them. Headshots because their skulls are unworthy of khorne's throne
I mean my preferred option there would have been that there isn't. They're all berserkers and all complete loons.
Somebody is crewing all their tanks...
Even back in 3.5 when World Eaters armies basically played themselves, the all-crazy-all-the-time players still had three Predator Annihilators.
I'm not sure that Teeth of Khorne would really work for Kill Team though - for the same reason a Devastator Squad probably wouldn't work; but Berzerkers with bolters/flamers, autogun cultists, khornegors etc would work fine.
Mr_Rose wrote:Do berserkers fit the “tactical combat” setup of KT? Can you imagine someone with a working brain trying to order them to capture an objective that can’t be murdered? Or sneak in any way?
Like a basic rule would almost have to be that they can’t be given conceal orders ever.
They can take and hold objectives in the main game, so I don't see why they couldn't do so in KT. In lore, they aren't all insane all the time, and do follow orders. In the beginning of the novel The Red Path, there's a team of WE waiting in ambush for some White Scars, and they are relying on long range bolters.
alextroy wrote: Kill Team would be the perfect place to release the spoken of, but never seen World Eaters shooting unit. Khorne is not all about Chainaxes!
There has to be some higher thinking World Eaters floating around... someone has to be the one who has figured out how to corrall Kharn, load him back on the ship for future redeployment.
I mean my preferred option there would have been that there isn't. They're all berserkers and all complete loons.
But they are favoured by Khorne and the blood will definitely flow when they are unleashed, so you have cults dedicated to capturing them and unleashing them for the Glory of Khorne!
Maybe some aspirants are recognised as being blood thirsty enough that the World Eaters don't kill them first while there are other enemies to kill, so those guys can get implanted with the geneseed to make more 'knock off' World eaters. But every cult has a bunch of those, if you want a real following and to be taken seriously as a 'World Eater's Warband leader, you'd better have a few originals to throw out to please the crowds.
A kill team based around unleashing one of these monsters, a few aspirants hoping to be recognised/anointed and then the support, hangers on and daemonic "camp followers" feeding in their wake could certainly be interesting.
It's not so much the geneseed that makes World Eaters what they are, so much as the butchers' nails and the influence of Khorne. There are knockoffs in that other legions and warbands have taken to using the nails to create their own World Eaters-like Berzerkers, though I think only the Black Legion has come close to fully recreating the originals. You actually don't need the nails to create Berzerkers, just to fully dedicate yourself to Khorne in a way regular Khorne-marked Marines aren't. I do like the idea of more cult followers, particularly khornegors, as a legion as big as the WE would probably have a diverse assortment of mortal human support, especially since their physical and mental state makes it so that it's probably impossible for most of them to focus non-combat work for any protracted period of time, minus a unit like a Warpsmith.
One unit that is needed is some kind of priest unit, similar to a Dark Apostle. Slaughterpriests exists in lore for the World Eaters, and their are several for the Blades of Khorne army in AoS. Priest units would work well in filling the void created by the lack of psykers.
Dysartes wrote: We definitely need to see Butcher-Surgeons at some point.
Given rumours I've heard from various places, my expectation is that the WE codex will come with that character plus juggernaut cavalry.
The Kill Team thing is a real wildcard though. A few days ago Valrak did describe the upcoming release on stream as a "world eaters kill team", rather than the "Khorne kill team" label he has used up to now. I'm not sure if that was a mistake or just letting something slip early. Plus there's also the long history of 40k not getting daemon releases exclusively, making khorne daemons unlikely for KT.
Given that this season of KT is (so far) focusing on new kits rather than upgrade sprues, I'm very curious what that would mean for WE. I've seen theories about both raptor-style jump pack berzerkers and mutilators, plus a claim that this rumour engine belongs to a WEKT:
Given rumours I've heard from various places, my expectation is that the WE codex will come with that character plus juggernaut cavalry.
Even I can't believe that juggernaut cavalry wouldn't be a level of redundancy too far for GW. World Eaters will already have Blood Crushers and the very plain looking Lord on Juggernaut.
Given rumours I've heard from various places, my expectation is that the WE codex will come with that character plus juggernaut cavalry.
Even I can't believe that juggernaut cavalry wouldn't be a level of redundancy too far for GW. World Eaters will already have Blood Crushers and the very plain looking Lord on Juggernaut.
I don't know. A pendulum swing from the lone Juggernaut Lord (because Daemons were still their own thing in 9th ed) to a dedicated mounted Marine unit on top of the now relocated mounted Daemons in 10th ed sounds believable to me. It's the kind of thing to expect from GW's models first approach.
I wonder what kind of KT will be made for daemons? One idea would be to have one or two models from each god and then some kind of Undivided leader. Or, we could get a whole team of unique Undivided daemons. I think making the team consist of units from only one god would be unfair.
Given rumours I've heard from various places, my expectation is that the WE codex will come with that character plus juggernaut cavalry.
Even I can't believe that juggernaut cavalry wouldn't be a level of redundancy too far for GW. World Eaters will already have Blood Crushers and the very plain looking Lord on Juggernaut.
That assumes GW develop new models led by the rules. Just ask any GSC player how their totally-not-redundant collection of character models is going
Any World Eater kits still in the pipeline will have been designed several years ago, possibly well before any decision to merge the faction with Daemons or even with the original intention of releasing different models alongside the marine-only 9E codex. That codex did actually include fluff & artwork of Invocatus leading Berzerker cavalry. There's also precedent of 9E codexes including artwork for upcoming Kreig units like Death Riders, whose models weren't seen until 10E.
Ironically Guard did get 'redundant' cavalry kits released in back-to-back codexes. GW's solution to that was to give Death Riders distinct roles from Rough Riders on the tabletop, which is definitely something that could be easily repeated for WE/daemons.
There just seems something wrong about Berserkers riding Juggernauts. I would think they would be getting leg day in to help improve the speed they can run at their enemies and chop them up. I'd like to see them weilding the Juggernaut as a really big club that they bash onto someones skull instead of riding them into battle where they cannot reach the opponent from the backs before the Juggernaut bashes or stomps on them.
Jscarlos18 wrote: Any info if the rumoured Tyranid terrain is for KT or just normal 40k?
I want GW to refresh the Gargoyles so all Gaunt subspecies are finally updated. Although Tyranid Warriors need new scuplts too.
Currently there's no firm rumours on a Tyranid KT, the closest we have is Valrak saying he's heard that some plastic Tyranid terrain is coming and it might be Kill Team related.
If I had to bet I'd say that Shrikes have to be a possible contender. We still don't have a matching unit for the Winged Prime to lead, and Shrikes/Warriors lean naturally into the KT design approach of having individual specialists more so than most other Tyranids.
Yeah it seems like more of a boarding actions scale game than kill team.
A terminator / genestealer / mortalis terrain box might be a slam dunk for GW, but I could easily see them waiting until the release of updated assault terminator models to do it. Seems like a release best timed towards the end of 10th edition after most of the codexes are done.
The_Real_Chris wrote: I am still baffled they didn't do Terminators vs stealers for the spaceship terrain.
For proper space hulk action the Genestealers would have to be some form of NPC wave enemy, as the purestrains don't really do 'specialists'.
I routinely ran compendium 'Stealer teams in Kill team, especially for newer players. They had some 'equipment' options, though I tended to make them all identical as used them for opponents for new players.
Likewise terminators were quite possible to do given most of their weaponry existed and the heavy primaris types were already included. We had house roles for them but no idea what I did with them.
The_Real_Chris wrote: I am still baffled they didn't do Terminators vs stealers for the spaceship terrain.
For proper space hulk action the Genestealers would have to be some form of NPC wave enemy, as the purestrains don't really do 'specialists'.
terminators are a bit too strong for the scale of kill team, too, so i'm not sure how well the concept works
I’ve been thinking about it and you’d basically have to limit it to a strictly Tactical squad with only the heavy gunner as an option. Give them 2APL as the main balance against 2+ saves and Astartes but also give the warriors “implacable advance” where they can move and shoot their stormbolter. 15/16 wounds each and maybe give the stormbolter a a range cap too, but Ceaseless.
Beyond that, squad abilities are going to be a much more complicated exercise and probably amount to straight nerfs like not being able to climb or jump, and no taking the grenades equipment. Not sure how to represent the Crux Terminatus, if at all.
Five models would be the smallest squad in KT24 so far I believe?
But yeah, tricky.
There are a surprising number of variant/specialist genestealers:
Miasmic (gassy)
Reaperfex (scythes, quick)
Bulwark (extended carapace)
Scythe strain (sort of non-psychic scythed broodlord)
Stalker strain (cameleon)
Warrior strain (spits acid)
The_Real_Chris wrote: I am still baffled they didn't do Terminators vs stealers for the spaceship terrain.
I kind of wondered initially, but then this game already exists with Space Hulk - and I think if I could play Kill team Terminators vs Genestealers or Space Hulk, I'd probably go Space Hulk as it's got stuff in set up specifically for that match up.
You wouldn't really be using half of the rules and the differences between the teams would be less pronounced, or you'd be tweaking the stats and numbers away from what you would have had in 40K/direct conversion to Kill team and Space Hulk. All of which means it would probably end up being a lesser game than either Gallowdark Kill team or conventional Space Hulk.
KT24 could easily cater to something resembling a Space Hulk game, cosmetically speaking. Play a Gallowdark mission in jointOps mode, against stealers, using counts-as-Custodes rules for the Marines.
However, it will never "feel" like playing Space Hulk. Might be fun though!
The_Real_Chris wrote: I am still baffled they didn't do Terminators vs stealers for the spaceship terrain.
I kind of wondered initially, but then this game already exists with Space Hulk - and I think if I could play Kill team Terminators vs Genestealers or Space Hulk, I'd probably go Space Hulk as it's got stuff in set up specifically for that match up.
You wouldn't really be using half of the rules and the differences between the teams would be less pronounced, or you'd be tweaking the stats and numbers away from what you would have had in 40K/direct conversion to Kill team and Space Hulk. All of which means it would probably end up being a lesser game than either Gallowdark Kill team or conventional Space Hulk.
Doesn't matter if it is good or not - its sheer existence would get sales.
The_Real_Chris wrote: I am still baffled they didn't do Terminators vs stealers for the spaceship terrain.
I kind of wondered initially, but then this game already exists with Space Hulk - and I think if I could play Kill team Terminators vs Genestealers or Space Hulk, I'd probably go Space Hulk as it's got stuff in set up specifically for that match up.
You wouldn't really be using half of the rules and the differences between the teams would be less pronounced, or you'd be tweaking the stats and numbers away from what you would have had in 40K/direct conversion to Kill team and Space Hulk. All of which means it would probably end up being a lesser game than either Gallowdark Kill team or conventional Space Hulk.
Doesn't matter if it is good or not - its sheer existence would get sales.
Unless those sales risked taking away from Leviathan the year after and Space Hulk proper a couple of years later, plus generating bad press of this new format "not being as good as space hulk" rather than "new space hulk terrain!"
I suggest everyone to try it. JointOps, use "TOUGH" (Brawler) profile for the stealers, determine a suitably nasty amount of stealer combined wounds, and get going. You could play any of the Gallwodark missions.
This way, you're not even limited to "only" using Terminators. You could realistically use any team which needs to deal with genestealers
The nachmund gauntlet book mentions world eater kill teams, but it specifies an interesting specific one with the "Axes of the Forge" who are a darkmech-aligned world eater warband.
Makes me think the world eaters unit will be some kind of darkmech horrorshow kind of thing.
cole1114 wrote: The nachmund gauntlet book mentions world eater kill teams, but it specifies an interesting specific one with the "Axes of the Forge" who are a darkmech-aligned world eater warband.
Makes me think the world eaters unit will be some kind of darkmech horrorshow kind of thing.
Didn't Valrak mention in a recent video that he heard an unreliable rumor awhile ago that mentioned that warband as well?
cole1114 wrote: The nachmund gauntlet book mentions world eater kill teams, but it specifies an interesting specific one with the "Axes of the Forge" who are a darkmech-aligned world eater warband.
Makes me think the world eaters unit will be some kind of darkmech horrorshow kind of thing.
Didn't Valrak mention in a recent video that he heard an unreliable rumor awhile ago that mentioned that warband as well?
Yeah he had mentioned a Khorne killteam before and recently thinks it will be the next one vs Grey Knights.
I actually really like that "2+ to dash, if failed dash only up to 1" (BLACK)" special rule. I could see myself using that one all the time, it would make dashing a bit more risky so that you cant rely on a perfect positioning move every time
The Phazer wrote: The missionaries are cool. The Jakhals are super boring.
Is that the existing Sisters statue?
Existing as in came out five years ago and went out of production, yes.
Looking at the missionaries, looks like they've re-canonised the idea of a missionary getting to carry a plasma gun, but then they went and gave it to the OTHER old metal sculpt, rather than eyepatch dude. Weird.
Eyepatch plasma guy was a special character back in the day.
The wannabe-blood letters are neat, I like the bionic feet.
Not sure about this new card draw mechanic though. If it’s just a team gimmick that’s one thing but being some kind of scenario deal is another. Also, are the inevitable stand-alone boxes for the teams going to include the decks?
More Ecclesiarchy is always good, but the Khorne team... eh. There are already factions obsessed with cutting off their own limbs, think of something new!
Very cool set,I like both themes included, and has the KT vibe I expect (no 10 identical faceless military guys in identical suits, but a bunch of characterful individuals).
I already have 6 teams, though, and diffusing the playing time I have between even more of them hardly makes any sense.
Hmm, pretty mixed bag of miniatures there. The assortment of plastic priests is welcome and has a few nice models among them. Also good to see the statue of Saint C is available again.
But that wannabe Death Cult Assassin is dire and the tactical rocks on two of the claw boyos are just insulting.
The Blood Herald and Salvationist look good, but the rest just don't seem like anything special. I guess its nice to get Missionaries again, but overall, this feels like one of the most bland kill team boxes.
Great to finally see some regular ecclesiarchy, with a couple of re-sculpts no less. Love the confessor and the plasma zealot. Even Josef from Inquistior made it.
Mr_Rose wrote: Eyepatch plasma guy was a special character back in the day.
Nah, he was one of the two regular missionaries. The special characters were Jacobus and Kyrinov.
There was a character who was very clearly supposed to match up with the plasma missionary though (the model post-dated the 2nd ed. Codex) - Cardinal Armandus Helfire.
Mr_Rose wrote: Eyepatch plasma guy was a special character back in the day.
Nah, he was one of the two regular missionaries. The special characters were Jacobus and Kyrinov.
There was a character who was very clearly supposed to match up with the plasma missionary though (the model post-dated the 2nd ed. Codex) - Cardinal Armandus Helfire.
He was meant to be a super-ripped Reacher-scale hunk of a man, which the hunched over man missing an eye and arm doesn't quite capture.
ArcaneHorror wrote: I love all of the models, but it is strange that World Eaters are getting two cultists units while the Emperor's Children don't have any.
Some of the new EC codex artwork has little sword-armed mortal guys alongside marines towering over them. I'd bet on EC getting their own cultist kill team before their next codex in 11th.
I quite like the idea behind the Goremongers, that actually seeing a daemon and surviving is rare enough to constitute a miracle for Chaos cultists, leading them to remake themselves in the image of their patron's angels
Sculpt-wise, they're completely fine, other than the tactical rocks. They'd be much better received if the generic Jakhal unit didn't already exist, and if Warcry's Claws of Karanak weren't a more interesting approach to the conceit. All of them having the cybernetic chicken legs undermines the overall impact, there's no visual hierarchy or position outside of the Blood Taker and the Impaler (the Aspirants look the same as the Skullclaimer, who I assume is supposed to be a champion after the leader), and they feel more like a generic combat unit rather than a flavoured cult. I know Kill Team is often used to refresh or introduce units into 40K proper, but these are just Jakhals, albeit slightly more interesting because they more visually conform to being the World Eaters' hunting dogs.
Could've been better if only one or two of them had been augmented to make them look like the more devoted or successful followers, maybe throw in a pet Fellgor partially shaved and adorned to look like a Bloodletter, like a golden (or brass) calf. The impaler and the inciter both pinning enemy operatives in different ways takes on a more narrative function if the whole cult operates in a more ritual fashion, allowing their dedicated close combat champions to spill blood in their name.
Love the Ecclesiarchy though, even without the nostalgia element. Imperial Agents are fairly consistent winners
Everything looks so great. DCA I would not have guessed what it was if it didnt have a label. It looks more asassins creed rather than Blanche, but he still looks cool I guess.
What a killer box upcoming for the second half of the season! A must-buy for me, even if I am going to be selling off those Khorne cultists.
While these look a bit uniform, wouldn't take all that much kitbashing to make both teams really look like a warband made up from ragtag individuals. I personally think the Death Cult assassin looks way off, but its an easy swap with the other assassin models (for example, much prefer the assassin in the Euclidean Starstriders) out there
I do wonder what other terrain there will be in the box besides that statue..?
tauist wrote: What a killer box upcoming for the second half of the season! A must-buy for me, even if I am going to be selling off those Khorne cultists.
While these look a bit uniform, wouldn't take all that much kitbashing to make both teams really look like a warband made up from ragtag individuals. I personally think the Death Cult assassin looks way off, but its an easy swap with the other assassin models (for example, much prefer the assassin in the Euclidean Starstriders) out there
I do wonder what other terrain there will be in the box besides that statue..?
I was thinking he reminds me of the 30k Assassin. Which he might become.
The Statue would be an amazing set piece for a display board.
GaroRobe wrote: Didn't Valrak mention in a recent video that he heard an unreliable rumor awhile ago that mentioned that warband as well?
LOL "rumor"? He babbles anything resembling new unit name in his sPeCuLaTiOn videos to gloat about it later (while quietly ignoring 99.5% of stuff that was wrong). Sometimes it's really hilarious like when he tries to guess new stuff totally not based on Rumor Engine pictures and gets blatantly obvious faction (or even game system even when it's plain it's not 40K model) wrong
silverstu wrote: Yeah he had mentioned a Khorne killteam before and recently thinks it will be the next one vs Grey Knights.
Oh look, it was not. Unless Grey Knights became weirdly small, zealot, unarmored, and not-psykers while I wasn't looking. I'd bet on it being prime example of clownery above, V mistaking emblem of Ecclesiarchy for Ordo Malleus one GK wear on RE photos and running with it to be first with sPeCuLaTiOn video in an attempt to vaingloat as always
I really like both of these. The box is hitting the same kind of ground level Imperium notes as Necromunda.
They're all religiously fanatic nutbags, but underneath the trappings, there's a 'just people' vibes. Not grotesque caricatures like Catachans, or overly disciplined soldiers or weird aliens. Just people pressed to the borders of insanity by the universe they live in.
I know its khorne but isnt kill team set in 40k and has nice scenery where you can hide and shoot your ennemys. Only 2 members from the khorn team have guns and the impaler isnt realy a gun??
Fayric wrote: Everything looks so great. DCA I would not have guessed what it was if it didnt have a label. It looks more asassins creed rather than Blanche, but he still looks cool I guess.
It's nice that somebody has finally remembered that Severina and Sevora's BDSM getup wasn't standard for all (most) death cults.
Oooooohhhhh that's what it is. I didn't visually distinguish the fins of the projectile from the arm and was wondering why a Khornate cultist was carrying a gun that fired lady's entertainment devices
If the cultists are trying to emulate Bloodletters, why haven't they gone all-in on the red body paint? Or black, or brass, or whatever your favourite Bloodletter scheme is?
Mr_Rose wrote: If the cultists are trying to emulate Bloodletters, why haven't they gone all-in on the red body paint? Or black, or brass, or whatever your favourite Bloodletter scheme is?
You'd think that they might copy their weaponry first (ie. swords), or the easiest body modifications (horns)...
Also you'd think that cultists who hang around with World Eaters on the regular (to the point where their stim injectors contain their blood) might get to see more than a single lesser daemon.
Mr_Rose wrote: If the cultists are trying to emulate Bloodletters, why haven't they gone all-in on the red body paint? Or black, or brass, or whatever your favourite Bloodletter scheme is?
You'd think that they might copy their weaponry first (ie. swords), or the easiest body modifications (horns)...
Also you'd think that cultists who hang around with World Eaters on the regular (to the point where their stim injectors contain their blood) might get to see more than a single lesser daemon.
I love the team of religious nutters; the Chaos team (as usual) leaves me cold. I’ll get the humans just for the fun of having some grungy ‘normal’ people.
skeleton wrote: I know its khorne but isnt kill team set in 40k and has nice scenery where you can hide and shoot your ennemys. Only 2 members from the khorn team have guns and the impaler isnt realy a gun??
Melee-only teams arent all that uncommon in Kill Team. Chaos cults and Beastmen teams are like this as well
You dont need a gun to benefit from cover
After having slept over this, I am now thinking this box is "just OK". While I need that statue, the lack of any real terrain is a letdown.. Since this will most likely be priced the same as Brutal Kunnin', its not a superb value.. Could just as well buy the Ecclesiarchy team later when they get their kit, and get the statue from ebay instead. Our group hasnt even started Ashes Of Faith yet, so I dont need more missions of this type.. The rules would have to be something really special..
Speaking of Ashes Of Faith, been skimming through the book and I reckon I should be able to make it into a co op campaign with some tweaks. Basically I'd just need to create a new type of NPO which is otherwise like the BRAWLER NPO outlined in KT24 joint Ops, but can also do mission actions like the MARKSMAN type NPOs can.. The Inq team is actually neat for joint ops, since you have the team already in two parts (Retinue & Ancillaries). I'd just need to figure out how the Chaos side would use those extra AOF shenanigans without a player deciding when to use them..
skeleton wrote: I know its khorne but isnt kill team set in 40k and has nice scenery where you can hide and shoot your ennemys. Only 2 members from the khorn team have guns and the impaler isnt realy a gun??
Most of the leggy guys have pistol holsters on their belts.
It’s quite funny that the Khorne team in Warcry were a cult based around Karanak and the Flesh Hounds, and the Khorne team in Kill Team are all about trying to emulate Bloodletters.
) - I have problems with predicting when sacrificing an operative is actually worth it.
