schoon wrote:Excellent news. I wonder when the new rulebook will be released as a standalone product...
Aeneades wrote:Awww, bugger. Next Saturday at 10 I am doing to be part way through a 100 mile run in a complete dead zone for mobile reception. I had really hoped it would be the week after. Hopefully there are actually good stock levels so I can pick it up later in the day.
Nothing really "must-have" about those direct only freebies this time, so I'll pass ordering from GW direct this time. Think I'll just grab this one at the FLGS on release day. Have to admit, the value proposition of this box will probably be most agreeable tho!
I wonder if those datacards will be available separately though? I dont want to rebuy my teams just to get their new cards..
tauist wrote: Nothing really "must-have" about those direct only freebies this time, so I'll pass ordering from GW direct this time. Think I'll just grab this one at the FLGS on release day. Have to admit, the value proposition of this box will probably be most agreeable tho!
I wonder if those datacards will be available separately though? I dont want to rebuy my teams just to get their new cards..
The article does say that the datacards are separate.
schoon wrote:Excellent news. I wonder when the new rulebook will be released as a standalone product...
Aeneades wrote:Awww, bugger. Next Saturday at 10 I am doing to be part way through a 100 mile run in a complete dead zone for mobile reception. I had really hoped it would be the week after. Hopefully there are actually good stock levels so I can pick it up later in the day.
Two week pre-order window and standalone core book.
Two week preorder window is the same as it's been for everything for months. Preorders sell out on day 1 for most hot releases like this, so that's entirely meaningless.
tauist wrote: Nothing really "must-have" about those direct only freebies this time, so I'll pass ordering from GW direct this time. Think I'll just grab this one at the FLGS on release day. Have to admit, the value proposition of this box will probably be most agreeable tho!
I wonder if those datacards will be available separately though? I dont want to rebuy my teams just to get their new cards..
I thought the freebies were better than normal and pretty cool, though in practical terms the D6 markers are better than clicky bases.
lord_blackfang wrote: I like how GW decided that those buying from them get to track wounds with dial bases and those buying from FLGS get to track wounds with dice boats.
And never the twain shall meet!
It's really not a surprise that GW would try & entice you to order from them direct by offering a better option.
BUT it's not like you can't just order acrylic life counter dials any day of the week from any # of sourcrs via Amazon/Ebay/etc....
Mine came from Litko.
lord_blackfang wrote: I like how GW decided that those buying from them get to track wounds with dial bases and those buying from FLGS get to track wounds with dice boats.
And never the twain shall meet!
It's really not a surprise that GW would try & entice you to order from them direct by offering a better option.
BUT it's not like you can't just order acrylic life counter dials any day of the week from any # of sourcrs via Amazon/Ebay/etc....
Mine came from Litko.
I prefer the dice counters. They look pretty nice and I can actually use them for any team and not just those models I glue to the dial bases
I'm trying to figure out what you're supposed to do with the wound dial bases. I assume you're not supposed to use them as model bases since you get a bag to put them in.
solkan wrote: I'm trying to figure out what you're supposed to do with the wound dial bases. I assume you're not supposed to use them as model bases since you get a bag to put them in.
you will get a set of 12 bases with wound-counter dials
They call them bases so yes you are supposed to use them as bases, the bag is probably meant for tokens afterwards
solkan wrote: I'm trying to figure out what you're supposed to do with the wound dial bases. I assume you're not supposed to use them as model bases since you get a bag to put them in.
I doubt the intention is to glue them to bases, it’s more to place beside each mini to help you keep track of wounds as you go.
Sounds like they get supplied in the bag, as each base will come in 3 pieces each.
However this isn't the first time GW models have had wound dial bases availible, and if they weren't meant to be used on the models there wouldn't be any need to provide them in 3 different sizes.
I doubt the intention is to glue them to bases, it’s more to place beside each mini to help you keep track of wounds as you go.
I don't think they are meant to be glued to bases, they are meant to be used as bases. So you glue your models onto these and just have an inbuild wound counter in your base. They also have the same shape as normal bases and GW calls them bases so thats likely how they are supposed to be used.
Not that you need to do that, you can just place them near a model but in that case I would still prefer the dice trays as they have a pointer so you actually know which model they belong to
The prices for the team datacards seems too high IMHO, will not be getting them for anything other than my favourite team.
180€ is a bit more than I anticipated but understandable considering the amount of terrain in the box.
Regarding the wound dial bases, not a fan. I much prefer external wound counters, picking up a model just to adjust its wound count feels too fiddly to me, too easy to mess up your models position on the board
tauist wrote: The prices for the team datacards seems too high IMHO, will not be getting them for anything other than my favourite team.
Yeah, quite a high price. Also can't seem to see if datacards for the two new teams are included in the launch box? It was standard last season and they're not selling them separately, but don't seem to be mentioned as part of the box contents, unless I missed it.
Dudeface wrote: Scouts casually jumping £7.50 for no real reason stings.
Do the KT boxes not come with lots of tokens as well? As covered they don’t include Datacards, but I’ve never opened such a box.
All of them now come with unique token sheets so the base £2.50 everybody seems to have gotten increase seems fine but no idea why Scouts and Blooded had to go up an additional £5
lord_blackfang wrote: Blooded were always more expensive, they get the Blackstone Commissar and Ogryn on top of a full squad sprue.
Na at least in € Blooded were 51,50€ before, same as the Veteran Guardsmen, Novitiates, Corsairs, Farstalkers, Kasrkin, Hearthkyn, Elucidian Starstriders, Fellgor Ravagers, Navy Breachers and Exaction Squad. Scouts, Necrons, Gellerpox, Phobos Squad, Legionaries, and Kommandos were 55€. Then there are the Pathfinders at 47.50€ and the Hand of the Archon and Inquisitorial Agents at 44€ and the Blades of Khaine at 62,50€
Now Corsairs went up to 55€, Hernkyn Jaegers and Brood Brothers got added to 55€, Mandrakes to 62,50€, Kommandos stayed at 55€, Nemesis Claw with a new price point of 60€ together with Blooded which got raised up there and Scouts went up to 62,50€
So for the already existing squads Corsairs got +3,50€, Kommandos stayed the same, Blooded +8,50€ and Scouts +7,50€
So as said above the +3,50€ for Corsairs makes sense with the tokens and the same increase would be fine for the others but why did Scouts and Blooded get a higher increase instead? (Probably simply because people will still buy them at that price point but still)
Regarding the Wound dial bases. Seemingly a good idea, but as tauist has noted, you can screw up the mini's position by using it. Now we all have plenty of d6s, so that's the simpler and cheaper route ... However, there are knitting counters. They are little cylinders with two dials going from 0 - 9. I've not bothered to buy any before, but I'm thinking they could be better than dice, which periodically get knocked over, or worse, picked up and rolled by mistake. Since I also play Kings of War, and despite being rank and file, it uses wounds as the unit is removed as a whole, so they'd be useful there as well (and Frostgrave, Stargrave et al).
I personally use 2 micro D6s per operative for wound tracking. Those micro D6s are awful to throw anyway, and wont get mixed up with regular die. My LGS sells solid blue and red micro D6s, so those are what I use (blue and red match the existing KT21 token colours)
lord_blackfang wrote: Blooded were always more expensive, they get the Blackstone Commissar and Ogryn on top of a full squad sprue.
Na at least in € Blooded were 51,50€ before, same as the Veteran Guardsmen, Novitiates, Corsairs, Farstalkers, Kasrkin, Hearthkyn, Elucidian Starstriders, Fellgor Ravagers, Navy Breachers and Exaction Squad.
Scouts, Necrons, Gellerpox, Phobos Squad, Legionaries, and Kommandos were 55€.
Then there are the Pathfinders at 47.50€ and the Hand of the Archon and Inquisitorial Agents at 44€ and the Blades of Khaine at 62,50€
Now Corsairs went up to 55€, Hernkyn Jaegers and Brood Brothers got added to 55€, Mandrakes to 62,50€, Kommandos stayed at 55€, Nemesis Claw with a new price point of 60€ together with Blooded which got raised up there and Scouts went up to 62,50€
So for the already existing squads Corsairs got +3,50€, Kommandos stayed the same, Blooded +8,50€ and Scouts +7,50€
So as said above the +3,50€ for Corsairs makes sense with the tokens and the same increase would be fine for the others but why did Scouts and Blooded get a higher increase instead? (Probably simply because people will still buy them at that price point but still)
The Blooded are essentially a veteran guardsman kill team with a free ogryn and commissar thrown in before, so the weirdness was that they didn't cost more the first go-around.
lord_blackfang wrote: Blooded were always more expensive, they get the Blackstone Commissar and Ogryn on top of a full squad sprue.
Na at least in € Blooded were 51,50€ before, same as the Veteran Guardsmen, Novitiates, Corsairs, Farstalkers, Kasrkin, Hearthkyn, Elucidian Starstriders, Fellgor Ravagers, Navy Breachers and Exaction Squad.
Scouts, Necrons, Gellerpox, Phobos Squad, Legionaries, and Kommandos were 55€.
Then there are the Pathfinders at 47.50€ and the Hand of the Archon and Inquisitorial Agents at 44€ and the Blades of Khaine at 62,50€
Now Corsairs went up to 55€, Hernkyn Jaegers and Brood Brothers got added to 55€, Mandrakes to 62,50€, Kommandos stayed at 55€, Nemesis Claw with a new price point of 60€ together with Blooded which got raised up there and Scouts went up to 62,50€
So for the already existing squads Corsairs got +3,50€, Kommandos stayed the same, Blooded +8,50€ and Scouts +7,50€
So as said above the +3,50€ for Corsairs makes sense with the tokens and the same increase would be fine for the others but why did Scouts and Blooded get a higher increase instead? (Probably simply because people will still buy them at that price point but still)
The Blooded are essentially a veteran guardsman kill team with a free ogryn and commissar thrown in before, so the weirdness was that they didn't cost more the first go-around.
I'm a bit surprised they didn't just remove them from the box, much like the Broodbrothers not coming with the Broodcoven. But I suppose the Broodcoven exist as a separate box, and IIRC there isn't currently any other way to get the Ogryn or Comissar.
lord_blackfang wrote: Blooded were always more expensive, they get the Blackstone Commissar and Ogryn on top of a full squad sprue.
Na at least in € Blooded were 51,50€ before, same as the Veteran Guardsmen, Novitiates, Corsairs, Farstalkers, Kasrkin, Hearthkyn, Elucidian Starstriders, Fellgor Ravagers, Navy Breachers and Exaction Squad.
Scouts, Necrons, Gellerpox, Phobos Squad, Legionaries, and Kommandos were 55€.
Then there are the Pathfinders at 47.50€ and the Hand of the Archon and Inquisitorial Agents at 44€ and the Blades of Khaine at 62,50€
Now Corsairs went up to 55€, Hernkyn Jaegers and Brood Brothers got added to 55€, Mandrakes to 62,50€, Kommandos stayed at 55€, Nemesis Claw with a new price point of 60€ together with Blooded which got raised up there and Scouts went up to 62,50€
So for the already existing squads Corsairs got +3,50€, Kommandos stayed the same, Blooded +8,50€ and Scouts +7,50€
So as said above the +3,50€ for Corsairs makes sense with the tokens and the same increase would be fine for the others but why did Scouts and Blooded get a higher increase instead? (Probably simply because people will still buy them at that price point but still)
The Blooded are essentially a veteran guardsman kill team with a free ogryn and commissar thrown in before, so the weirdness was that they didn't cost more the first go-around.
I'm a bit surprised they didn't just remove them from the box, much like the Broodbrothers not coming with the Broodcoven. But I suppose the Broodcoven exist as a separate box, and IIRC there isn't currently any other way to get the Ogryn or Comissar.
yeah, it's a difference of how it's made. Broodcoven is more similar to the Necrons team, but Blooded was made to go together (and even in bighammer, will often be played alongside each other)
I thought the ogryn and commissar came in a BSF box though, so separate sprues? But I suppose if there's currently no route to purchase them separately that's why they're included, whereas broodcoven are a GSC kit at the moment.
The latest WH+ Batrep is apparently free to watch. Almost watched it now.
Mixed feelings regarding the new edition tbh. Cover feels super strong now. Also, I feel like the presenters arent super proficient KT21 players? Far too little conceal use during the game IMHO.
Early days, but perhaps getting a sense Vespid's might be OP
Dysartes wrote: That's correct, Longstrider, they were originally an expansion pack for Blackstone Fortress.
Yeah, so that's what seems strange to me about Blooded vs. Brood Brothers - the former gets its Big Guys on a separate sprue in the box and the latter doesn't, but I suppose it is just down to availability of the latter's Big Guys in the 40kGSC range.
What are the Kill Team Mission Cards advertised on the cover of White Dwarf 504? Tried to find some info online, but failed (one list of contents doesn't even list any KT cards inside the latest issue)
Dysartes wrote: That's correct, Longstrider, they were originally an expansion pack for Blackstone Fortress.
Yeah, so that's what seems strange to me about Blooded vs. Brood Brothers - the former gets its Big Guys on a separate sprue in the box and the latter doesn't, but I suppose it is just down to availability of the latter's Big Guys in the 40kGSC range.
It's rather unfortunate that the GSC characters share a single sprue (from the Deathwatch game), so a box with it would be either much more expensive then the other Kill Teams or a steal (no pun intended).
The other thing is that KT boxes are each containing a ready-to-play team where you can use all the models. That's true for the Blooded (indeed you must use them as the only other option are four additional troopers) but not for the Brood Brothers: you can ever field only the Patriarch, the Magus or the Primus - or none of them, as you can take tactical assets instead of additional models.
So this is what the token look like that are now included with the teams: Slightly different from team to team depending on their abilities but overall pretty similar
Cyel wrote: What are the Kill Team Mission Cards advertised on the cover of White Dwarf 504? Tried to find some info online, but failed (one list of contents doesn't even list any KT cards inside the latest issue)
It's a deck of 11 cards; there are three deployment maps- three objectives on the centerline a) horizontally b) vertically and c) diagonally.
You flip one card per turning point and either player can score it; next turning point, whether anyone scored or not, it's discarded and another is flipped. Two of the 11 cards are deck manipulators, and the other nine are scoreable- some defining interactions with the objectives, others not. You can also pay 2 CP to flip a different card- either player can spend the full cost, or each player can pay one CP.
There's a bit more to it, but hat's the basics. It looks like it would be okay, and it may be system agnostic enough to work with both editions. The kill team cards were gravy for me in this issue- that Chalnath/ Kroot series of articles made me feel like I was back in the glory days of 9th. To have this little KT Mission Generator/ Mini-Game on top of that is pretty cool. My pick for issue of the year so far.
Ok, so it's an alternative mission generator? Sounds fine.
In the meantime I learned that in the new edition you will be able to move through friendly models' bases. Similarly to removing Traverse, I don't like this direction of changes.
For me wargames are about positioning. So good positioning should be rewarded and bad - punished. The more opportunities the game gives you for getting your positioning wrong, the more interesting it is, as you get more satisfaction when you actually get it right.
Moving through your friendly bases is just an easy way out for those who do not plan their positioning a turn ahead and suffer a suboptimal order of activations later.
Dysartes wrote: That's correct, Longstrider, they were originally an expansion pack for Blackstone Fortress.
Yeah, so that's what seems strange to me about Blooded vs. Brood Brothers - the former gets its Big Guys on a separate sprue in the box and the latter doesn't, but I suppose it is just down to availability of the latter's Big Guys in the 40kGSC range.
It's rather unfortunate that the GSC characters share a single sprue (from the Deathwatch game), so a box with it would be either much more expensive then the other Kill Teams or a steal (no pun intended).
The other thing is that KT boxes are each containing a ready-to-play team where you can use all the models. That's true for the Blooded (indeed you must use them as the only other option are four additional troopers) but not for the Brood Brothers: you can ever field only the Patriarch, the Magus or the Primus - or none of them, as you can take tactical assets instead of additional models.
It would be a good argument, but it's a new edition of killteam, therefore the rules are up for adjustment. I don't get why if Guardsmen can make do with a killteam of 10, there is an innate need for the Blooded to need 12. But since GW would likely just charge as much fir 10 as 12 I guess I shouldn't complain.
I think we suspected due to the lack of mentioning it as one of the various ways to play, but it would appear that the Spec Ops campaigns have left the core rules from the various reviews out there.
I suspect we'll see them return in some form in some more 'narrative' focused Co-op supplements later.
Tastyfish wrote: I think we suspected due to the lack of mentioning it as one of the various ways to play, but it would appear that the Spec Ops campaigns have left the core rules from the various reviews out there.
I suspect we'll see them return in some form in some more 'narrative' focused Co-op supplements later.
We'll see. Without a built-in mode for narrative campaign play, the game is dead to me, so either GW smartens up or they go without my money. They were already treading on thin ice with 40k after decimating subfactions and psychic powers. When I read that spec ops was gone, it was almost enough to make me rage quit GW as whole. Last time that lasted two editions.
We'll see. Without a built-in mode for narrative campaign play, the game is dead to me...
While I agree with this sentiment - as I love narrative play - isn't adjusting things to a narrative framework just an application of a little creativity?
Current Spec Ops seem to be almost perfectly compatible with new rules. Maybe in 1% of situations a tiny tweak will ne needed, but most of the time it should be as if the edition never changed.
We'll see. Without a built-in mode for narrative campaign play, the game is dead to me...
While I agree with this sentiment - as I love narrative play - isn't adjusting things to a narrative framework just an application of a little creativity?
I think the unusual thing about Kill Team 2021 is that it's turned out to be quite well balanced and solid as a ruleset, so works better than most GW games for competitive play. For that reason, they seem to have concentrated on the competitive 1v1 side of things for the new edition (and, having read through the full leak, I think all the changes they've made in that direction are good ones). Really this isn't Kill Team 3 (or whatever number we'd be up to) so much as Kill Team 2.1 - just codifying some of the balance dataslate stuff, clarifying edge cases that come up in competitive play and making some sensible tweaks.
I also am only likely to play Kill Team narratively though, so I agree that it's a pity Spec Ops appears to be gone, but like schoon says, that's by far the easiest bit to just make up yourself and will be 90% backwards compatible with the previous edition anyway.
I haven't preordered the core book as the reviews suggest it's a bit too light in clarity and details. For only 112 pages £37.50 is a steep asking price, even with discount. Not a deal breaker yet if its the only purchase I need to make to plop some models on the table, and at least its not a softback asking for a hardback price, but I'd feel better when they have more stuff announced and the team rules go up on WarCom.
Now would be a good time for GW to introduce a new 40K Quest game, as Kill Team 2018 enjoyed cross-over rules with Blackstone Fortress.
Cyel wrote: Current Spec Ops seem to be almost perfectly compatible with new rules. Maybe in 1% of situations a tiny tweak will ne needed, but most of the time it should be as if the edition never changed.
This is mostly true... But only for teams that currently exist. I can apply Sisters Spec-ops content to a KT24 unit of Novitiates with little or no problem. Now try it with Vespids or Aquillons. What are possible backgrounds for Vespid? Unit Quirks? Home Bases? Okay, now how do we expand those homebases with Assets? what sort of requisitions might a Vespid have?
And it will get worse as new teams are released. Will the spec ops content for the Archon's Hand still work with the Wych or Coven Team that's coming? Will the Novitiate spec-ops content be suitable for a mixed team that includes Repentia or Sacressants? Do Corsairs have the same types of Hombases or Assets as Guardians or Wraiths?
Here's another thing to consider: while I loved Spec-ops, it wasn't perfect: everything around the Spec-ops (Base Assets, requisitions, skill trees, etc) was solid, but the actual Spec-ops themselves were really simple- complete x games in which you score Y Tac-ops, then a final game in which you score Z Tac-op, and get a reward. If GW had bothered to carry Spec-ops over, they could have improved it. Now they never will.
Finally, we've got co-op and solo play now, but the replayability on these won't be what it could have been if both the teams and the AI/ environmental elements had been allowed to grow. I think we end up with gimmick play modes that lose interest in six months to be ignored for the rest of the edition. I could certainly be wrong here- we know there is a Joint-ops mission pack, so there will be some variety. But it's only a single set of changeable parameters, limiting the possibilities.
Now would be a good time for GW to introduce a new 40K Quest game, as Kill Team 2018 enjoyed cross-over rules with Blackstone Fortress.
Hell yes! After the problems with IA, the loss of Spec-ops and the huge gaping hole in the 40k release schedule, I really need something to be positive about. A BSF style game would fill some holes in the IA dex, it would replace good narrative KT, and it would reduce three months of nothing cool to tolerable levels.
Cyel wrote: Current Spec Ops seem to be almost perfectly compatible with new rules. Maybe in 1% of situations a tiny tweak will ne needed, but most of the time it should be as if the edition never changed.
This is mostly true... But only for teams that currently exist. I can apply Sisters Spec-ops content to a KT24 unit of Novitiates with little or no problem. Now try it with Vespids or Aquillons. What are possible backgrounds for Vespid? Unit Quirks? Home Bases? Okay, now how do we expand those homebases with Assets? what sort of requisitions might a Vespid have?
.
I'd say just use the default ones. From my attempts at playing Spec Ops it's not like these rules particularly ooze narrative and atmosphere anyway and I remember mostly sticking to generic options myself with my White Scars, because it didn't make that much of a difference (I remember actually avoiding some Intercession options due to them being too strong).
I think a Spec Ops equivalent should become a thing in this edition, and if separated from the basic rules maybe could become something more vibrant and captivating than pretty mechanical and dull Spec Ops of KT21.
PenitentJake wrote: What are possible backgrounds for Vespid? Unit Quirks? Home Bases? Okay, now how do we expand those homebases with Assets? what sort of requisitions might a Vespid have?
Maybe there's some similar tables in the secondary book included in the boxed set?
PenitentJake wrote: What are possible backgrounds for Vespid? Unit Quirks? Home Bases? Okay, now how do we expand those homebases with Assets? what sort of requisitions might a Vespid have?
Maybe there's some similar tables in the secondary book included in the boxed set?
Also they were just suggested options, you can easily make your own.
@Cyel- first of, respect man. I recognize that you're doing a thing I frequently do too: when someone expresses disappointment, you try to provide ways that the person in question may, in time, become less disappointment. This is a positive instinct- it helps bring much needed positivity to places where the negative language proliferates. So first and foremost, thanks for trying.
I think you'll ultimately end up frustrated with me though, because there isn't a way to make this pill less bitter for me. I do appreciate you trying, but I feel obligated to warn you it's unlikely to work.
I'd say just use the default ones. From my attempts at playing Spec Ops it's not like these rules particularly ooze narrative and atmosphere anyway and I remember mostly sticking to generic options myself with my White Scars, because it didn't make that much of a difference (I remember actually avoiding some Intercession options due to them being too strong).
Again, non-Inquisition Marines, for me are the least interesting thing in the 40k universe because of their ubiquity, so I never looked at their KT rules, and it's possible their Spec-ops content was dull- in 9th ed, their Crusade content was pretty dull too, though from the Goonhammer reviews, they really did improve this in 10th.
But let me give you a few examples of Spec Ops awesomeness:
The Aeldari Aspect KT's The Path Diverges requisition:
This is a narrative engine all by itself- it is a mechanic that can represent an Aspect Warrior changing Aspects or becoming an Exarch. As such, it can be linked to specific battlefield conditions (ie. highest scoring operative becomes the new exarch, lowest scoring choses a new path), objectives, and in a system where you're playing KTs from a 40k Crusade roster, it interacts with bespoke Crusade mechanics in 40k and impacts your army as a whole. This also interacts with the statuary asset, as you can only have one Aspect statue at a time... A new Dire Avenger Exarch might take exception to that Banshee Statue.
You absolutely will not find a more narrative requisition (or even a remotely equal one) for this team amongst the generic offerings.
The Sisters Field Punishment and Saint Potentia requisitions:
The first allows a Novitiate to become a Penitent as a result of game conditions... And as a Narrative player, for me, this is the only way I would include a Penitent. This allows a player to exceed the one Penitent limit (the rules don't explicitly say this, but they also don't explicitly say otherwise) and because the use of the requisition requires an in-game trigger, it's unlikely to be an issue. What this requisition is missing is the Redemption Arc... But even so, it's crazy fluffy, and again, it interacts with Crusade rules in combined Narrative rosters.
Saint Potentia is another interaction with Crusade rules, and an absolute game changer. Imagine being identified as a candidate for Sainthood BEFORE you graduate from the rank of Novitiate! That's a Prodigy, a once in a generation phenomenon that translates directly into Crusade.
Finally, many of the Home Base assets can be modelled and located in space with map-based campaigns, or used as objective markers in either Crusade or KT.
Heck, just for you, I looked up the stuff for Marine Scouts, and it's awesome!
A scout can become a full Marine! A Sergeant can share battlefield expertise with his operatives- sacrificing his own growth to help the troops under his command grow instead- that's WAY more narrative than the generic crap. And the "Scout Vehicles" base asset is a nice combo with supply limit increases in Crusade being used to add speeders.
The key to narrative gaming is not merely what GW gives us, but the myriad of interesting ways in which what GW gives us can be used. If you've always chosen Spec-op upgrades based on the rules they provide without ever thinking about how they should be purchased when they are conceivable narrative results of in game action, or how they affect ongoing narrative conditions in-game... Well yeah, you can be forgiven for thinking they don't matter. But for people who DO these things... Like I'm not going to take a Penitent and til a game gives one of girls something to Repent... These rules were the best part of the game.
I think a Spec Ops equivalent should become a thing in this edition, and if separated from the basic rules maybe could become something more vibrant and captivating than pretty mechanical and dull Spec Ops of KT21.
The potential for this is strong, and it's the one thing that might redeem the edition for me. The flip side to that is that the the Spec-Ops equivalent for KT24 could also be worse; the KT18 campaign system was hot garbage, and not worth the paper it was printed on; two editions later, I still mourn the trees. A slap-dash White Dwarf article won't cut it. The difficulty is that the best parts of Spec-ops play were integrated directly into the team rules themselves. In order to be as good, any forthcoming supplement would have to revist each team to add bespoke content, otherwise the Narrative Play mode becomes as inadequate as a universal equipment list is, and crazy enough, that's something this edition has the gall to actually brag about. They've already said there will be bespoke lists that teams can choose from instead of the universal one... And of course they did, because there has to be: even for something as simple as equipment, universal rules are inadequate for narrative use.
If you're going to have bespoke equipment list anyways, why not just ad the few things from universal that ARE truly suitable?
PenitentJake wrote: What are possible backgrounds for Vespid? Unit Quirks? Home Bases? Okay, now how do we expand those homebases with Assets? what sort of requisitions might a Vespid have?
Maybe there's some similar tables in the secondary book included in the boxed set?
Also they were just suggested options, you can easily make your own.
Certainly the backgrounds and quirks were- those things were useful for Narrative, but they weren't actual rules, so they never go out of date.
But skill trees, assets and requisitions were actual rules, and as demonstrated above, they really do shape the narrative if you let them, and they aren't easily replaced. No core support for Spec-Ops means that skill trees and specialisms don't exist at all because there's no mechanism for XP. GW could be forgiven for excluding that from a game where people are playing 2k point games were it would be a lot of book keeping... But a ten model per side skirmish game without progression mechanics is just a total fail from my perspective.
PenitentJake wrote: No core support for Spec-Ops means that skill trees and specialisms don't exist at all because there's no mechanism for XP. GW could be forgiven for excluding that from a game where people are playing 2k point games were it would be a lot of book keeping... But a ten model per side skirmish game without progression mechanics is just a total fail from my perspective.
Or they're saving it all up for a big, expensive hardback expansion book that people need to spend money on. Free team rules is one thing, but GW's got to get their cash from somewhere!
PenitentJake wrote: @Cyel- first of, respect man. I recognize that you're doing a thing I frequently do too: when someone expresses disappointment, you try to provide ways that the person in question may, in time, become less disappointment. This is a positive instinct- it helps bring much needed positivity to places where the negative language proliferates. So first and foremost, thanks for trying.
I think you'll ultimately end up frustrated with me though, because there isn't a way to make this pill less bitter for me. I do appreciate you trying, but I feel obligated to warn you it's unlikely to work.
Gallowdark terrain rerelease appears to be without the accessory sprue which seems a shame. Maybe they'll stick all four of those in a box or something.
Just realized I might be better off sticking to KT21 for the most part. I got a complete set of KT21 Campaign books, all the cards, and all the Gallowdark special terrain (+2 sets of GD terrain pieces). Now, I'm getting Hivestorm cuz I want the official KT24 rulebook, but other than that, I can just stick to the previous edition stuff, as the KT24 team rules shall be free in any case. There's nothing preventing me playing KT21 missions with KT24 teams & rules.. Joint Ops books will be the only exception for me
So I love my requisitions and assets, though I completely understand why your campaign doesn't use them.
I do, however, love your missions. I particularly like the Ancient Guardian- it has some great abilities, but I can easily think of half a dozen models I might use to represent it. I bookmarked the page and I probably will try out the missions.
Curious: You mentioned in the preamble that you have had lackluster experiences with other Spec-Ops stuff. I've said in a recent post (whether here or B&C I can't be sure) that the actual Ops themselves were the dullest part of the system: Complete X tacop Y times, then play a final game and achieve Tacop Z, earn a reward. Your missions are certainly cooler.
But what I wondered was whether or not you had tried any of the campaign systems that came in the books. I really liked Ashes of Faith's campaign system... Though it is quite specifically designed for the teams in the box. But Salvation (the set with Scorpions and Scouts) has a map based campaign with some cool quirks too, and it works better for teams other than the ones in the box.
I haven't checked my other books to see if they also included campaign systems- they all have mission sequences, but the campaign structure may be absent or missing.
In my own games, I play both KT and Crusade from the same roster; the units that are suitable for use in KT have both Crusade cards and KT cards. There's only one XP pool, but when a KT unit hits a level break, they get BOTH a Crusade Battle Honour and a KT specialism upgrade, regardless of which game gave them the XP. Obviously, KT rules are only ever used in KT, and 40k rules are only used in Crusade.
What this does is put the long-term goals from Crusade into KT to infuse Spec-ops play with more meaning. This is why the Saint Potentia is such a big deal, because she actually exists in both games. As for KT requisitions and Assets, I try to reflect them with the Crusade Roster... So for example, I might put the points into the Sisters Battle Sanctum (Legends now) to represent the Home-Base assets I've acquired in KT.
Finally, my campaign is open ended... Which wouldn't work for a lot of players. People tend to like finite limits in Wargame campaigns... But I'm a pen and paper RPG vet, and taking 2-5 years to run a character from 1-20 is something I've done a dozen times or more, and that's how I prefer to play 40k too. The heroine of the Sisters force is beginning the campaign before she's formally admitted to the Novitiates.
My partner's out of town for a week, and I'm hoping to write some Batreps up while they're away. I'll send you some more info if I manage to follow through. There's going to be a three round arena battle in Commorragh that determines which member from each of the cults becomes the Hekatrix, which members get Wych weapons, which Cult's Hekatrix will be promoted to Succubus, and which cult will have the honour of working with Beast packs. I have the Arena surface built (but not the bleachers); Ideally, I'd like to introduce all the Dramatis Personae, but they aren't 100% necessary to the batrep.
Sorry to link off site, but if you're curious about the campaign, you'll find a fair bit of stuff here:
The "Rules Development" tab is supposed to be a place where I can post generic rules that people can use, and the Saint Katherine's Aegis Campaign Tab is where I apply all of those rules to use and create a specific campaign as an example of rules applied. I'm a dinosaur slow painter, and I don't play anywhere near as often as I'd like, so I don't update often... But I'm hoping to change that soon.
Anyway man, wicked missions, and I think I will take your campaign for a spin as part of my larger ongoing narrative.
So I love my requisitions and assets, though I completely understand why your campaign doesn't use them.
I do, however, love your missions. I particularly like the Ancient Guardian- it has some great abilities, but I can easily think of half a dozen models I might use to represent it. I bookmarked the page and I probably will try out the missions.
Curious: You mentioned in the preamble that you have had lackluster experiences with other Spec-Ops stuff. I've said in a recent post (whether here or B&C I can't be sure) that the actual Ops themselves were the dullest part of the system: Complete X tacop Y times, then play a final game and achieve Tacop Z, earn a reward. Your missions are certainly cooler.
But what I wondered was whether or not you had tried any of the campaign systems that came in the books. I really liked Ashes of Faith's campaign system... Though it is quite specifically designed for the teams in the box. But Salvation (the set with Scorpions and Scouts) has a map based campaign with some cool quirks too, and it works better for teams other than the ones in the box.
I haven't checked my other books to see if they also included campaign systems- they all have mission sequences, but the campaign structure may be absent or missing.
In my own games, I play both KT and Crusade from the same roster; the units that are suitable for use in KT have both Crusade cards and KT cards. There's only one XP pool, but when a KT unit hits a level break, they get BOTH a Crusade Battle Honour and a KT specialism upgrade, regardless of which game gave them the XP. Obviously, KT rules are only ever used in KT, and 40k rules are only used in Crusade.
What this does is put the long-term goals from Crusade into KT to infuse Spec-ops play with more meaning. This is why the Saint Potentia is such a big deal, because she actually exists in both games. As for KT requisitions and Assets, I try to reflect them with the Crusade Roster... So for example, I might put the points into the Sisters Battle Sanctum (Legends now) to represent the Home-Base assets I've acquired in KT.
Finally, my campaign is open ended... Which wouldn't work for a lot of players. People tend to like finite limits in Wargame campaigns... But I'm a pen and paper RPG vet, and taking 2-5 years to run a character from 1-20 is something I've done a dozen times or more, and that's how I prefer to play 40k too. The heroine of the Sisters force is beginning the campaign before she's formally admitted to the Novitiates.
My partner's out of town for a week, and I'm hoping to write some Batreps up while they're away. I'll send you some more info if I manage to follow through. There's going to be a three round arena battle in Commorragh that determines which member from each of the cults becomes the Hekatrix, which members get Wych weapons, which Cult's Hekatrix will be promoted to Succubus, and which cult will have the honour of working with Beast packs. I have the Arena surface built (but not the bleachers); Ideally, I'd like to introduce all the Dramatis Personae, but they aren't 100% necessary to the batrep.
Sorry to link off site, but if you're curious about the campaign, you'll find a fair bit of stuff here:
The "Rules Development" tab is supposed to be a place where I can post generic rules that people can use, and the Saint Katherine's Aegis Campaign Tab is where I apply all of those rules to use and create a specific campaign as an example of rules applied. I'm a dinosaur slow painter, and I don't play anywhere near as often as I'd like, so I don't update often... But I'm hoping to change that soon.
Anyway man, wicked missions, and I think I will take your campaign for a spin as part of my larger ongoing narrative.
The link to your campaign doesn't work for me, sadly (it keeps telling me it's checking if I am human and never redirects ) :( A pity as it is most likely an enjoyable read.
In theory I like the idea of an epic long, ongoing campaign, but in reality, as an owner of 5 different teams now, I like switching teams for variety pretty often. And I don't play KT often enough to be able to satisfy both the campaign play with the same team and the need to play different teams for less stagnation.
tauist wrote: Just realized I might be better off sticking to KT21 for the most part. I got a complete set of KT21 Campaign books, all the cards, and all the Gallowdark special terrain (+2 sets of GD terrain pieces). Now, I'm getting Hivestorm cuz I want the official KT24 rulebook, but other than that, I can just stick to the previous edition stuff, as the KT24 team rules shall be free in any case. There's nothing preventing me playing KT21 missions with KT24 teams & rules.. Joint Ops books will be the only exception for me
Very sensible when it comes to GW. If you buy into every new edition, then you'll probably experience burnout with purchases when the following edition is only three years away.
I didn't get into KT'21 but for the cost of a White Dwarf I had a Harlequins team ready to go just incase I changed my mind. In hindsight it was still worth the purchase as I might come across a player such as your self, as well as those who will prefer the newest edition. I really didn't like the WD rollout at the time, but its worked out well in the end because they included enough lore to make a mini-codex for the team, which I doubt will be provided in the upcoming pdfs on WarCom.
tauist wrote: Just realized I might be better off sticking to KT21 for the most part. I got a complete set of KT21 Campaign books, all the cards, and all the Gallowdark special terrain (+2 sets of GD terrain pieces). Now, I'm getting Hivestorm cuz I want the official KT24 rulebook, but other than that, I can just stick to the previous edition stuff, as the KT24 team rules shall be free in any case. There's nothing preventing me playing KT21 missions with KT24 teams & rules.. Joint Ops books will be the only exception for me
Yeah, there's a real good set of teams in KT21 that provide enough variety to keep you going for a long time. I guess the temptation for me is that I could basically double that with KT24 and have 50 teams instead of 26 that all play well with KT24 rules. So it's what I want to consider the "full set" as it were.
(And yes, I'm aware that when KT27 comes out it might be similar, but it's not so tempting as by then you'll have 50 teams, half of which won't work with the new one, so you're just getting back to where you were. This at least feels like it's growing.)
Here at Warhammer Community, we’ve got more from the new edition of Kill Team, with a big reveal on Monday and new rules going up for download later in the week.
From the newest preorder preview article. Its for sure not going to be the next box as that would be on Warhammer day this Saturday so its either the teaser model for the reveal show which could be an Ogryn from the new box or it might be the new starter set.
Call me greedy, but I thought we wouldn't need to buy the core book? I fact checked myself and they only ever mentioned free rules for the teams, but I'm not sure this feels like a huge win at this point.
Dudeface wrote: Call me greedy, but I thought we wouldn't need to buy the core book? I fact checked myself and they only ever mentioned free rules for the teams, but I'm not sure this feels like a huge win at this point.
The app allows you to download the free, 3-page Kill Team Lite rules. Enough to get you playing, with the free data sheets for the various teams. But obviously, the Lite rules are a stripped-down version, and don’t have any of the additional content from the full rule book.
Dudeface wrote: Call me greedy, but I thought we wouldn't need to buy the core book?
why?
not like it has been the very same with all the "free" rules now, the entry version is free/digital and for the full game you need to buy the book
Dudeface wrote: Call me greedy, but I thought we wouldn't need to buy the core book?
why?
not like it has been the very same with all the "free" rules now, the entry version is free/digital and for the full game you need to buy the book
The best way I can word it, is that they pushed the edition as an easy reference living rules set, that's the wording they chose in the reveal video. One of the key objectives is accessibility. One of the major new features, and one of my drivers, was the solo play so I have something I can warham when on my todd.
However that isn't made accessible, it's not in the easy reference app, it's not in the living ruleset. It's in a £37.50 book.
So rather than buying a kill team and possibly the accessories, I'm buying nothing.
no surprise here, we had similar wording with the last editions of the other games, and after release or some time after release it was "technically correct" but still the same that the essentiell rules were locked behind the books
ok, KT being a side game so it could have been different, but the same way "free rules" turned out in AoS to be the same "not so free" as always, it is the same here
and my guess is that we see the army builder being linked to a warhammer+ subscription in the long run
Disappointed but not surprised about “lite” rules.
If the full rules were free, I’d probably picked up an accessory sprue and jumped in.
I’m sure somewhere in GW there is a bean counter looking at the cost of entry and how much they can squeeze from new players vs. how many just nope out and walk away.
But I’ve been barking up this tree for a while. Love the minis, but the cost of their high-churn rules stops me from branching out. They would get more money from me personally with free rules, as I’d add more to the PoS. But I might be an anomaly. Obviously GW thinks so.
parakuribo wrote: I don't know if it was mentioned before, but anyome noticed there are two different squads for GSC but no Tyranids?
Makes perfect sense to me, hormagaunts etc aren't renown for stealing data/planting boms/asset extraction etc. That you'd expect kill teams to do.
Except for the part where a 'Gaunt team was part of the original debut of Kill Team in White Dwarf back in the day.
I'm not sure that's relevant? If you're taking about the 4th ed version it was basically an attempt at small 40k, which is a different thing altogether.
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Nevelon wrote: Disappointed but not surprised about “lite” rules.
If the full rules were free, I’d probably picked up an accessory sprue and jumped in.
I’m sure somewhere in GW there is a bean counter looking at the cost of entry and how much they can squeeze from new players vs. how many just nope out and walk away.
But I’ve been barking up this tree for a while. Love the minis, but the cost of their high-churn rules stops me from branching out. They would get more money from me personally with free rules, as I’d add more to the PoS. But I might be an anomaly. Obviously GW thinks so.
Nevelon wrote: Disappointed but not surprised about “lite” rules.
If the full rules were free, I’d probably picked up an accessory sprue and jumped in.
I’m sure somewhere in GW there is a bean counter looking at the cost of entry and how much they can squeeze from new players vs. how many just nope out and walk away.
But I’ve been barking up this tree for a while. Love the minis, but the cost of their high-churn rules stops me from branching out. They would get more money from me personally with free rules, as I’d add more to the PoS. But I might be an anomaly. Obviously GW thinks so.
To be honest, I never bought any rules for the latest edition. Made no sense to me to carry this outdated paper around. And a few times I played against players who referred to oficially printed rules, I had to repeatedly correct them "No, it isn't how your team works now, drop the book and check Wahapedia".
To paraphrase Gabe Newell, Valve's CEO, piracy isn't a result of the price as much as of convenience...I guess it works here.
Still bought 5 teams and a bucketload of terrain so it's not like GW should feel robbed.
Dysartes wrote: Question for those who have existing teams with new rules - how similar are the new rules to the previous edition?
Wondering how practical it might be for "the community" to port over Compendium teams to the new edition.
I think it would fairly easy to do the port. The bespoke teams that received the most changes were the season 1 and 2 teams, and of those, it was the ones that received numerous balance changes to the rules over the last 3 years that are the most different now.
The compendium received very few balance changes, as they are simpler to begin with. I would go hog-wild in "updating" the compendium to the new edition, which mostly entails replacing special rules with their current keyword and replacing weapon profiles with their current profile.
parakuribo wrote: I don't know if it was mentioned before, but anyome noticed there are two different squads for GSC but no Tyranids?
Makes perfect sense to me, hormagaunts etc aren't renown for stealing data/planting boms/asset extraction etc. That you'd expect kill teams to do.
Sure, but Lictors or Genestealers should do at least similar stuff. I mean, Gellerpox Infected and Fellgor Reavers aren't exactly paragons for operatives, too.
Prometheum5 wrote:Except for the part where a 'Gaunt team was part of the original debut of Kill Team in White Dwarf back in the day.
It was a mixed team - the really mean guys and the leader were Genestealers.
It's dissapointing though that both GSC teams can't even take a single (normal) Purestrain or Acolythe/Metamorph. Or even an Abberrant as bodyguard.
parakuribo wrote: I don't know if it was mentioned before, but anyome noticed there are two different squads for GSC but no Tyranids?
Makes perfect sense to me, hormagaunts etc aren't renown for stealing data/planting boms/asset extraction etc. That you'd expect kill teams to do.
Sure, but Lictors or Genestealers should do at least similar stuff. I mean, Gellerpox Infected and Fellgor Reavers aren't exactly paragons for operatives, too.
Prometheum5 wrote:Except for the part where a 'Gaunt team was part of the original debut of Kill Team in White Dwarf back in the day.
It was a mixed team - the really mean guys and the leader were Genestealers.
It's dissapointing though that both GSC teams can't even take a single (normal) Purestrain or Acolythe/Metamorph. Or even an Abberrant as bodyguard.
I mean yeah, genestealers and lictors can do assassinations and sneak about abit, bit they still don't carry bombs to sabotage fuel lines, or care about stealing files/data or lots of the other stuff you expect covert operatives to accomplish. You can't really include most other species as synapse becomes an issue.
I love nids as a concept, but without some form of specialist kill team and maybe unique objectives they don't fit imo outside of assassination stuff.
No reason the Hive Mind can’t pop out particularly clever Gaunts for such missions.
Their original background, going back to Rogue Trader when they were called Hunter-Slayers described them as being designed for, well, hunting and slaying interlopers aboard ship, using their smaller stature and squishy bodies to fit where nobody else could, the better to launch ambushes.
It would make some sense for a breed of Termagant, known as the Hunter Slayer have greater intelligence and autonomy for such a task, which could be seen as wasteful on those Termagants whose sole purpose is to die gloriously and make the enemy expend as much ammo as possible.
I'd love to torment other players with a Neurolictor & Von-Ryan's Leapers team. That would be a good laugh.
I take it the compendium teams won't be available as free pdfs? I'm cool regardless as I have the models for at least three of the specific teams( Void-Dancers, Angels of Death, Blades of Khaine ) but just curious, thats all.
I mean yeah, genestealers and lictors can do assassinations and sneak about abit, bit they still don't carry bombs to sabotage fuel lines
I guess they could use some acid. Or spore-mines. Or have an infected human (or whatever) to do this. Or just destroy what the other species defend - usually it's important for them.
Dudeface wrote: or care about stealing files/data or lots of the other stuff you expect covert operatives to accomplish.
They eat brains (like Space Marines did in the past).
Dudeface wrote: I love nids as a concept, but without some form of specialist kill team and maybe unique objectives they don't fit imo outside of assassination stuff.
Sure, they need a special kill team, not something like the one in the Compendium. It's not like there're no options - Lictors, Genestealers, Hybrids, Mind-slaves, the Grabber-slasher or even a Zoat (this time with bio-weapons). Or something new.
I mean yeah, genestealers and lictors can do assassinations and sneak about abit, bit they still don't carry bombs to sabotage fuel lines
I guess they could use some acid. Or spore-mines. Or have an infected human (or whatever) to do this. Or just destroy what the other species defend - usually it's important for them.
Dudeface wrote: or care about stealing files/data or lots of the other stuff you expect covert operatives to accomplish.
They eat brains (like Space Marines did in the past).
Dudeface wrote: I love nids as a concept, but without some form of specialist kill team and maybe unique objectives they don't fit imo outside of assassination stuff.
Sure, they need a special kill team, not something like the one in the Compendium. It's not like there're no options - Lictors, Genestealers, Hybrids, Mind-slaves, the Grabber-slasher or even a Zoat (this time with bio-weapons). Or something new.
I think you've sort of convinced me of my initial stance. Kill Team is it's own game, it doesn't need to have a convenient 1:1 with 40k.
Lictors with a Tactical spore mine on its... belt? Is a weird take.
Genestealers, mind Slaves and hybrids all have a different army they can be represented by, one who does care about data files, physical resource etc. Because GSC are perfect for a load of guerilla teams and the like.
So again, until GW write some fluff or produce some new stuff for nids, it doesn't make practical sense imo. It'd be easy to do, but most situations make more sense for GSC to represent.
I mean yeah, genestealers and lictors can do assassinations and sneak about abit, bit they still don't carry bombs to sabotage fuel lines
I guess they could use some acid. Or spore-mines. Or have an infected human (or whatever) to do this. Or just destroy what the other species defend - usually it's important for them.
Dudeface wrote: or care about stealing files/data or lots of the other stuff you expect covert operatives to accomplish.
They eat brains (like Space Marines did in the past).
Dudeface wrote: I love nids as a concept, but without some form of specialist kill team and maybe unique objectives they don't fit imo outside of assassination stuff.
Sure, they need a special kill team, not something like the one in the Compendium. It's not like there're no options - Lictors, Genestealers, Hybrids, Mind-slaves, the Grabber-slasher or even a Zoat (this time with bio-weapons). Or something new.
I think you've sort of convinced me of my initial stance. Kill Team is it's own game, it doesn't need to have a convenient 1:1 with 40k.
Lictors with a Tactical spore mine on its... belt? Is a weird take.
Genestealers, mind Slaves and hybrids all have a different army they can be represented by, one who does care about data files, physical resource etc. Because GSC are perfect for a load of guerilla teams and the like.
So again, until GW write some fluff or produce some new stuff for nids, it doesn't make practical sense imo. It'd be easy to do, but most situations make more sense for GSC to represent.
I think a weirder take is the idea that 'Nids don't have any adaptations that allow them to sabotage or blow up important enemy structures that Kill teams could use. Some immediate thoughts that don't even require different models is explosive flesh hooks intended for sabotage rather than mobility or acid maws as mentioned by another poster. If GW released a bespoke kit then spore mines would probably be something spawned from a biomorph not "hanging from a belt".
I also don't really see why Necrons or Orks or frankly Eldar would particularly care about datafiles recovered by physical operatives, but there we are. It is a generic, human-centric hook that needs to be adapted lorewise to different factions anyway.
For the record, the 4th edition kill team rules had mission objectives for sabotage, assassination, escape, reconnaisance, last stand, and hit and run (the latter is actually a generic mission for reaching a predetermined point, doing something for a turn, then retreating- this would be your datafiles mission except it isn't tied to a specific human-centric task). Far more than just assassinations. It was also arguably much more about highly specialised operatives than the current system, as the games were asymmetric with an elite team infiltrating an area protected by henchman sentries rather than a meeting engagement between opposing elite teams (very rare outside of a scenario where raids are occurring into no-mans-land between opposing armies, very much a conventional military issue). Just using the base 40k rules doesn't mean it was pretty much just 40k lite in theme.
As it happens, Phil Kelly and Tim Huckleberry (the writers of the Chapter Approved article with rules for bespoke Tyranid teams in 4th) somewhat agreed with you and said Tyranids should not play sabotage and reconnaisance missions. They instead provided 3 additional missions- capturing gene samples, capturing live specimens for dissection, and killing an enemy leader (different but similar to the assassination mission). Whilst I disagree and think Tyranids absolutely are capable of sabotage and targeting non-biological structures and that reconnaissance is a big part of why lictors exist, the solution is to put some effort into bespoke missions for Tyranids.
I mean yeah, genestealers and lictors can do assassinations and sneak about abit, bit they still don't carry bombs to sabotage fuel lines
I guess they could use some acid. Or spore-mines. Or have an infected human (or whatever) to do this. Or just destroy what the other species defend - usually it's important for them.
Dudeface wrote: or care about stealing files/data or lots of the other stuff you expect covert operatives to accomplish.
They eat brains (like Space Marines did in the past).
Dudeface wrote: I love nids as a concept, but without some form of specialist kill team and maybe unique objectives they don't fit imo outside of assassination stuff.
Sure, they need a special kill team, not something like the one in the Compendium. It's not like there're no options - Lictors, Genestealers, Hybrids, Mind-slaves, the Grabber-slasher or even a Zoat (this time with bio-weapons). Or something new.
I think you've sort of convinced me of my initial stance. Kill Team is it's own game, it doesn't need to have a convenient 1:1 with 40k.
Yep.
Worth remember all the fuss over "my 40K faction doesn't have a Kill Team anymore" next time someone sighs about GW doing a models first, rules second approach to most of their games. This is what happens when you flip it around.
They're focused on making a good game and then putting out models to support that, rather than the other way around.
I mean yeah, genestealers and lictors can do assassinations and sneak about abit, bit they still don't carry bombs to sabotage fuel lines
I guess they could use some acid. Or spore-mines. Or have an infected human (or whatever) to do this. Or just destroy what the other species defend - usually it's important for them.
Dudeface wrote: or care about stealing files/data or lots of the other stuff you expect covert operatives to accomplish.
They eat brains (like Space Marines did in the past).
Dudeface wrote: I love nids as a concept, but without some form of specialist kill team and maybe unique objectives they don't fit imo outside of assassination stuff.
Sure, they need a special kill team, not something like the one in the Compendium. It's not like there're no options - Lictors, Genestealers, Hybrids, Mind-slaves, the Grabber-slasher or even a Zoat (this time with bio-weapons). Or something new.
I think you've sort of convinced me of my initial stance. Kill Team is it's own game, it doesn't need to have a convenient 1:1 with 40k.
Lictors with a Tactical spore mine on its... belt? Is a weird take.
Genestealers, mind Slaves and hybrids all have a different army they can be represented by, one who does care about data files, physical resource etc. Because GSC are perfect for a load of guerilla teams and the like.
So again, until GW write some fluff or produce some new stuff for nids, it doesn't make practical sense imo. It'd be easy to do, but most situations make more sense for GSC to represent.
Spoiler:
I think a weirder take is the idea that 'Nids don't have any adaptations that allow them to sabotage or blow up important enemy structures that Kill teams could use. Some immediate thoughts that don't even require different models is explosive flesh hooks intended for sabotage rather than mobility or acid maws as mentioned by another poster. If GW released a bespoke kit then spore mines would probably be something spawned from a biomorph not "hanging from a belt".
I also don't really see why Necrons or Orks or frankly Eldar would particularly care about datafiles recovered by physical operatives, but there we are. It is a generic, human-centric hook that needs to be adapted lorewise to different factions anyway.
For the record, the 4th edition kill team rules had mission objectives for sabotage, assassination, escape, reconnaisance, last stand, and hit and run (the latter is actually a generic mission for reaching a predetermined point, doing something for a turn, then retreating- this would be your datafiles mission except it isn't tied to a specific human-centric task). Far more than just assassinations. It was also arguably much more about highly specialised operatives than the current system, as the games were asymmetric with an elite team infiltrating an area protected by henchman sentries rather than a meeting engagement between opposing elite teams (very rare outside of a scenario where raids are occurring into no-mans-land between opposing armies, very much a conventional military issue). Just using the base 40k rules doesn't mean it was pretty much just 40k lite in theme.
As it happens, Phil Kelly and Tim Huckleberry (the writers of the Chapter Approved article with rules for bespoke Tyranid teams in 4th) somewhat agreed with you and said Tyranids should not play sabotage and reconnaisance missions. They instead provided 3 additional missions- capturing gene samples, capturing live specimens for dissection, and killing an enemy leader (different but similar to the assassination mission). Whilst I disagree and think Tyranids absolutely are capable of sabotage and targeting non-biological structures and that reconnaissance is a big part of why lictors exist, the solution is to put some effort into bespoke missions for Tyranids.
I was there during 4th, it was 100% 40k lite, it used all the core rules of 40k in the 40k setting with a layer of additional mechanics for the alarms and brute squads. It also had to cater for 40k armies and models in 40k army ranges and whilst they could have excluded one faction they opted not to as it's appeal was to all. It was a fun extra for the core game to encourage beginners to play with a box or two of squaddies.
But as you note they recognised Nids don't really fit in with the setting and as a result needed the rules change and bespoke missions, which as you again note would be ideal here. Which is exactly why it won't happen imo. KT in my perspective is intended as another fairly (open to interpretation) balanced competitive game GW want to be pick up and play, so they're unlikely to produce a kill team that requires special missions to make narrative sense.
The Great Gun isn't going to be skillfully hacked by a lictor operating under instructions from the hive mind after ingesting the senior tech priests brains to turn it off. The hive mind isn't likely to send just a dozen creatures to go chew through a pipe. It'll launch a massive orbital invasion as method A and as a distraction then direct the swarms to the specific locations to remove the biomass operating the gun.
I'd welcome any fluff of a Nid kill team doing anything other than assassinations.
I mean yeah, genestealers and lictors can do assassinations and sneak about abit, bit they still don't carry bombs to sabotage fuel lines
I guess they could use some acid. Or spore-mines. Or have an infected human (or whatever) to do this. Or just destroy what the other species defend - usually it's important for them.
Dudeface wrote: or care about stealing files/data or lots of the other stuff you expect covert operatives to accomplish.
They eat brains (like Space Marines did in the past).
Dudeface wrote: I love nids as a concept, but without some form of specialist kill team and maybe unique objectives they don't fit imo outside of assassination stuff.
Sure, they need a special kill team, not something like the one in the Compendium. It's not like there're no options - Lictors, Genestealers, Hybrids, Mind-slaves, the Grabber-slasher or even a Zoat (this time with bio-weapons). Or something new.
I think you've sort of convinced me of my initial stance. Kill Team is it's own game, it doesn't need to have a convenient 1:1 with 40k.
Lictors with a Tactical spore mine on its... belt? Is a weird take.
Genestealers, mind Slaves and hybrids all have a different army they can be represented by, one who does care about data files, physical resource etc. Because GSC are perfect for a load of guerilla teams and the like.
So again, until GW write some fluff or produce some new stuff for nids, it doesn't make practical sense imo. It'd be easy to do, but most situations make more sense for GSC to represent.
I think a weirder take is the idea that 'Nids don't have any adaptations that allow them to sabotage or blow up important enemy structures that Kill teams could use. Some immediate thoughts that don't even require different models is explosive flesh hooks intended for sabotage rather than mobility or acid maws as mentioned by another poster. If GW released a bespoke kit then spore mines would probably be something spawned from a biomorph not "hanging from a belt".
I also don't really see why Necrons or Orks or frankly Eldar would particularly care about datafiles recovered by physical operatives, but there we are. It is a generic, human-centric hook that needs to be adapted lorewise to different factions anyway.
For the record, the 4th edition kill team rules had mission objectives for sabotage, assassination, escape, reconnaisance, last stand, and hit and run (the latter is actually a generic mission for reaching a predetermined point, doing something for a turn, then retreating- this would be your datafiles mission except it isn't tied to a specific human-centric task). Far more than just assassinations. It was also arguably much more about highly specialised operatives than the current system, as the games were asymmetric with an elite team infiltrating an area protected by henchman sentries rather than a meeting engagement between opposing elite teams (very rare outside of a scenario where raids are occurring into no-mans-land between opposing armies, very much a conventional military issue). Just using the base 40k rules doesn't mean it was pretty much just 40k lite in theme.
As it happens, Phil Kelly and Tim Huckleberry (the writers of the Chapter Approved article with rules for bespoke Tyranid teams in 4th) somewhat agreed with you and said Tyranids should not play sabotage and reconnaisance missions. They instead provided 3 additional missions- capturing gene samples, capturing live specimens for dissection, and killing an enemy leader (different but similar to the assassination mission). Whilst I disagree and think Tyranids absolutely are capable of sabotage and targeting non-biological structures and that reconnaissance is a big part of why lictors exist, the solution is to put some effort into bespoke missions for Tyranids.
I was there during 4th, it was 100% 40k lite, it used all the core rules of 40k in the 40k setting with a layer of additional mechanics for the alarms and brute squads. It also had to cater for 40k armies and models in 40k army ranges and whilst they could have excluded one faction they opted not to as it's appeal was to all. It was a fun extra for the core game to encourage beginners to play with a box or two of squaddies.
"It was 100% 40k lite but had a bunch of extra rules making it markedly more complex than core 40k". Rules-wise Kill Team back then was 40kheavy. It used 40k rules as a base but the asymmetric play made it feel more different in scope than modern kill team is between symmetrical forces.
It was small in scale but doesn't mean it was a simpler gateway game for people with small collections. Combat patrol was the game mode for new players with a handful of units. Kill team was supposed to be a thematic modelling opportunity for dedicated players.
But as you note they recognised Nids don't really fit in with the setting and as a result needed the rules change and bespoke missions, which as you again note would be ideal here. Which is exactly why it won't happen imo. KT in my perspective is intended as another fairly (open to interpretation) balanced competitive game GW want to be pick up and play, so they're unlikely to produce a kill team that requires special missions to make narrative sense.
The Great Gun isn't going to be skillfully hacked by a lictor operating under instructions from the hive mind after ingesting the senior tech priests brains to turn it off. The hive mind isn't likely to send just a dozen creatures to go chew through a pipe. It'll launch a massive orbital invasion as method A and as a distraction then direct the swarms to the specific locations to remove the biomass operating the gun.
I'd welcome any fluff of a Nid kill team doing anything other than assassinations.
Presumably you are excluding purestrain Genestealers from that? The most obvious Tyranid team is based around purestrain 'Stealers who are described in lore as highly intelligent and able to operate machinery like doors. This overlaps with GSCs but the hive fleets make great use of them too.
We also know 'Nids target specific infrastructure that is slowing their advance. On Amphelion IV, the Inquisitorial expedition found the whole place powered down deactivating the containment fences. The escaped 'Nids had infiltrated the generators and switched them off. After the Imperial forces reactivated them they targeted them again in later attacks.
Given the existing missions either make no sense to start with (why are both sides trying to deactivate the same firewalls?) or are already written explicitly from an Imperial perspective (particularly notable in missions like Consecrate ground), you already need to adapt the lore as given for other forces. I see no reason why a Tyranid kill team wouldn't be capable of those actions.
For example, the Secure archeotech mission can represent any valuable item that is portable and could, for Tyranids, be a valuable specimen or corpse they are retrieving. The mission lore is about an Imperial team retrieving human archeotech. Why would Eldar or Necrons (other than Trazyn) retrieve such low-tech gear? They'd just destroy it, it isn't any use to them. But the mission is symmetrical for simplicity. Or, you adapt the lore to it being a piece of Eldar tech or a piece of Necron tech that can't teleport for some reason or a piece of valuable biomass.... see what I mean? Or lets try another example- why does a Tau vs a LoV kill team care about consecrating the ground in their secular societies? That one actually makes more sense for 'Nids as they could be infesting something. Why is it Tyranids specifically that break the immersion for generic missions?
Tyranids will probably end up as GW's favoured faction as hostiles for solo-coop missions.
Although sabotage-wise they can disrupt the warp and are inspired by classic swarm movies like Phase Four and ALIENS, cut wires and the like. Even in Starship Troopers, they didn't just "suck his brains out" but also made the poor fellow send a false message, to lead the troopers into an ambush! And lets not forget the Raptors from Jurassic Park....
Spoiler:
...its all silly nonsense of course, but 40K boils down to appealing to fans of sci-fi movies and novels. If Dinoriders suddenly makes a comeback and takes the sci-fi world by storm, then GW will bang out Exodites like they're preparing to invade the Hoth System.
Presumably you are excluding purestrain Genestealers from that? The most obvious Tyranid team is based around purestrain 'Stealers who are described in lore as highly intelligent and able to operate machinery like doors. This overlaps with GSCs but the hive fleets make great use of them too.
I think it was silly we didn't get a Genestealer team during the literal space hulk season, but I also think there's an element of, if we didn't get one then, we never will.
Presumably you are excluding purestrain Genestealers from that? The most obvious Tyranid team is based around purestrain 'Stealers who are described in lore as highly intelligent and able to operate machinery like doors. This overlaps with GSCs but the hive fleets make great use of them too.
I think it was silly we didn't get a Genestealer team during the literal space hulk season, but I also think there's an element of, if we didn't get one then, we never will.
Maybe, but we got the Eldar space pirates before the space hulk season so there is hope. To be honest, most of the teams have not been particularly themed to the combat environment.
Presumably you are excluding purestrain Genestealers from that? The most obvious Tyranid team is based around purestrain 'Stealers who are described in lore as highly intelligent and able to operate machinery like doors. This overlaps with GSCs but the hive fleets make great use of them too.
I think it was silly we didn't get a Genestealer team during the literal space hulk season, but I also think there's an element of, if we didn't get one then, we never will.
We also didn't get the traditional enemies of the genestealers in space hulk either. Heck we didn't get Space Marines of any type (for a change).
IIRC, a fairly large part of the "Devastation of Baal" book is dedicated to a Lictor infiltrating the Blood Angels Chapter Fortress in order to disable the shields and allow for ground assault.
I think nids would make a great asymmetrical OpFor. Instead of classic KTs give them monsters and mooks. While they might not be able to slot into every single scenario, there are plenty they would be great with.
The KT needs to clear it’s way through the gaunts to poison the spawning pool.
Playing cat and mouse with the lictor in the shield generator.
Sneak behind enemy lines to assassinate the synapse creature
As an army nids don’t lend themselves to evenly matched mirror balanced TAC forces. But narratively, there is a TON of space to tell stories.
As others have said, I think Nids will be the ideal Solo/ Coop antagonists.
That said, playing a Cult that grows from a single brood of 'Stealers is AWESOME. GW doesn't want to do it, because the GSC lifestyle gets cringy after the infection, since growth of the cult from that point on is standard reproduction according to the anatomy of the host species. Genestealers infect humans with DNA, but hybrids (whether Acolytes, Neophytes, Metamorphs, character or even Aberrants and the Purestrains of subsequent Brood Cycles) are all produced via standard sexual reproduction.
Gestation and maturation of these offspring is very rapidly accelerated, but conception is consistent with standard biological process for the host species.
I do still think a 'Nid team composed of leapers and stealers is viable. Flesh hooks are "ladders" and spore mines are "grenades," and these organism are designed to collect information and destroy enemy infrastructure.
But I think GW will leave them as antagonists for PVE/ Coop. And you know what? I can still follow the brood cycle just as easily to grow a cult when models are included this way.
Nids are much more than wild beasts that some of you seem to think.
They take infiltration and recon to new levels... vanguard organisms can be planted on a planet hidden for a long time to observe movement, they can even hibernate on inhospitable space hulks for undetermined periods of time, both rippers and trygons can dig beneath the foundations of given fort and lictors can simply live behind enemy lines unnoticed.
I dont know about you but relegating nids to brainless beasts seems a bit simplistic.
Another point is that new Gaunts have one-of biomorph weapons sprues, meaning the specialisation of unique members of a brood are more welcome than ever. Kill team? yes.
Edit. anecdotal evidence if an octopus can unscrew a bottle to reach food are you telling me a anthropomorphic octopoid like a lictor cannot use its fingers to click on a button to get to their prey behind the doors?
NAVARRO wrote: Nids are much more than wild beasts that some of you seem to think.
They take infiltration and recon to new levels... vanguard organisms can be planted on a planet hidden for a long time to observe movement, they can even hibernate on inhospitable space hulks for undetermined periods of time, both rippers and trygons can dig beneath the foundations of given fort and lictors can simply live behind enemy lines unnoticed.
I dont know about you but relegating nids to brainless beasts seems a bit simplistic.
Another point is that new Gaunts have one-of biomorph weapons sprues, meaning the specialisation of unique members of a brood are more welcome than ever. Kill team? yes.
Edit. anecdotal evidence if an octopus can unscrew a bottle to reach food are you telling me a anthropomorphic octopoid like a lictor cannot use its fingers to click on a button to get to their prey behind the doors?
I'm telling you that a lictor cannot use its fingers to press a key combination to deactivate a bomb. That a trygon is not a kill team. Rippers need synapse control, gaunts need synapse control, the only critters that don't are lictors and stealers.
Most nids problem solving is done via kill things, because none biomass objects and concepts are largely of no use. Unless new gaunts etc. With synapse capability come to pass, they make no sense, nor do rippers or gargoyles or whatever.
This is why people are readily accepting them as generic bad guys/solo play teams, because they don't really do what an elite commando squad do, as their goals and methods are so far removed.
CorwinB wrote: IIRC, a fairly large part of the "Devastation of Baal" book is dedicated to a Lictor infiltrating the Blood Angels Chapter Fortress in order to disable the shields and allow for ground assault.
I looked this up. The Lictor snuck into the fortress monastery, homed in on the generator powering the void shield array, and destroyed it by dissolving a critical component using a bespoke bioadaption to liquefy its entire body into potent acid. The passage specifically relays how the Hive Mind isn't really aware of the lictor individually in the same way we are not aware of our cells, but it was still able to be spawned for the specific task of infiltrating a heavily-defended base and sabotaging critical infrastructure via a precision attack. The lictor died in the mission.
Now, I think this does highlight a potential issue- Tyranid kill teams exist, but they are spawned as disposable assets for a task and are unlikely to survive the task. There isn't a team that can grow and gain experience per se, although I suppose you could interpret that as the Hive Mind learning from the previous mission and spawning each version of the team to be a bit better adapted for its next mission.
I'm telling you that a lictor cannot use its fingers to press a key combination to deactivate a bomb.
So animals these days have proven that they can, colour code, solve puzzles, arrange objects some even copy human voice by mimicking, observing etc. Are you telling me a super evolved brainy space creature cannot mimic a key combination he had previous gathered knowledge about? It's like saying Lictors cannot for some bizarre reason understand cause and effect on any given situations. Im not saying a lictor will understand in and outs of such devices but if in stealth he sees a guard man entering a bunker by typing some keys he for sure can copy that action. Lictor goal would still be the same and like an octopus he would just use a form of logical thinking to get to the food.
Its not but the point was nids understand and temper with non organic objects to reach their objectives... In this case they are manipulating the environment and understand the idea of what foundations do to a structure. Thats not an action of wild beasts. Thats logical behaviour.
Dudeface wrote: Rippers need synapse control, gaunts need synapse control, the only critters that don't are lictors and stealers.
So your beef is the synapse rule? Well could not neurolictors, lictors, stealers a prime warrior, neurogaunts etc be some kind of synaptic presence in Killteam rules? I dont see that much of a problem, the leader of the Tyranid KT could easily bring it in to the field.
Dudeface wrote: Most nids problem solving is done via kill things, because none biomass objects and concepts are largely of no use. Unless new gaunts etc. With synapse capability come to pass, they make no sense, nor do rippers or gargoyles or whatever.
Sure they travel the universe in vast biovessels strip a planet to its mineral core in a freakish efficient way and display really complex behaviours because well they are clueless beasts right? From a narrative point of of view I understand the appeal of " ravaging beasts devour! " but Tyranids as the "faster evolving race in 40k" would by now have some immensely clever superbrains.
Dudeface wrote: This is why people are readily accepting them as generic bad guys/solo play teams, because they don't really do what an elite commando squad do, as their goals and methods are so far removed.
I tend not to dwell in knowing what people accept or not. Im telling you Elite was even part of Tyranid 40k army structure... They have elite creatures and the goals are still the same, even if they need to unscrew a jar to get to their target.
You may well say they have no interest into creating the traditional mechanic machines, but thats probably because their organic biomorphs manipulations do that for them already, does not mean they don't identify what that mechanic machine is for the enemy and by destroying it it becomes easier/faster to consume the planet.
Actually, this could be very likely as they can throw in Rein & Raus from BSF, and they are nice little models. Straight away it would have a sniper and a well equiped scout, I suppose. Grappling hook you can travel quick and a scanner...well, you can scan things!
the only critters that don't are lictors and stealers.
I mostly argee; the only point of contention for me is that now there's a Lictor family- Von Ryan's Leapers, Neurolictors and Deathleaper all fit into the Lictor family. I skipped the Nid dex this edition, so I'm not sure how much of the Lictor's mind reading via feeder tendril those variants retain, but it's not a stretch.
Synapse control IS a valid point against Nids outside Stealers and the Lictor family, but in previous editions, biomorphs have been able to grant synapse control. If GW wanted to, releasing a Nid KT could be very easy and very fluffy.
Most nids problem solving is done via kill things, because none biomass objects and concepts are largely of no use.
Again, sort of true... But Nids are smart enough to know that if the biomass is on the other side of a door, they need to open the door to get to it. They understand target priority, etc. It is true, however that non-vanguard Nids do usually require synapse control... But again, that's a matter of a biomorph upgrade sprue, which has a precedent. And of course, Vanguard organisms (Stealers + Lictor family) don't need synapse control.
This is why people are readily accepting them as generic bad guys/solo play teams, because they don't really do what an elite commando squad do, as their goals and methods are so far removed.
No, I think people readily accept it because the all or nothing nature of a Nid attack, the hivemind-nature of the species, and the lack of personal identities among the individual creatures make them suitable for "Brute squad/ Sentry" style play- Not because they couldn't also make an effective Kill Team. It doesn't have to be either/ or - it can be both, and while I can't speculate on the opinions of others, I'd like to see both.
I won't mind an Ork team, but Ratlings/Ogryns doesn't make sense to me as a team, and back-to-back IG-related teams also feels wrong for Kill Team - still, at least we won't have to wait that long to see.
Has anyone tried the co-op mode yet? I think I may give it a go soon.
I just wish they had managed to design automa's moves in a less cumbersome way. It may happen that operating automa moves takes more time than actually playing yourself, creating downtime and disengagement. I am wondering if it is really the case.
Many board games with solo modes have already moved behind the stage of thinking that automa needs to do the same things players do. It needs to produce player-like results, not perform all player-like processes.
I recommend checking Terra Mystica and its automa mode, which is pure genius. Operating it is lightning quick and it produces game states as if it was a nasty player full of surprises.
I won't mind an Ork team, but Ratlings/Ogryns doesn't make sense to me as a team, and back-to-back IG-related teams also feels wrong for Kill Team - still, at least we won't have to wait that long to see.
You'll have what you're given and like it!
But seriously, its not on my wish list but its the most rumoured at the moment. Personally I'm holding out for a Harlequins team, but while I'm confident it is coming its probably not going to happen this soon.
I suspect all the terrain getting released this season will be stylistically compatible with each other? Which sounds great, one will have a big bunch of themed terrain at the end of the season, for mixing and matching in any way that looks cool. This will also end up being a good platform for Joint Ops stuff in the future no doubt.
Just wishing we could buy the terrain separately, if that ends up being the case..
So I bought a Farstalker Kinband. There are two 32mm bases and 10 28mm bases. While the Kill-broker is listed as using a 32, who uses the 2nd 32mm is not included in the instructions. So could some one tell me which figure uses that base, please?
Ancestral Hamster wrote: So I bought a Farstalker Kinband. There are two 32mm bases and 10 28mm bases. While the Kill-broker is listed as using a 32, who uses the 2nd 32mm is not included in the instructions. So could some one tell me which figure uses that base, please?
You will find all base sizes on datacards in the KT app or in the downloadable file on WhCom.
Ancestral Hamster wrote: So I bought a Farstalker Kinband. There are two 32mm bases and 10 28mm bases. While the Kill-broker is listed as using a 32, who uses the 2nd 32mm is not included in the instructions. So could some one tell me which figure uses that base, please?
No one does, looks like a packing mistake to me. The hounds are also both on 28s as if everyone else other than the broker.
Ancestral Hamster wrote: So I bought a Farstalker Kinband. There are two 32mm bases and 10 28mm bases. While the Kill-broker is listed as using a 32, who uses the 2nd 32mm is not included in the instructions. So could some one tell me which figure uses that base, please?
No one does, looks like a packing mistake to me. The hounds are also both on 28s as if everyone else other than the broker.
It looks like you are correct. Only the Kill-broker is on 32mm, everyone else is on 28mm.
Interesting that the Ratlings vs armoured Orks rumours was 100% correct but the Ogryns part of the rumour is missing. Wondering if that might have been a mixup and they are part of something else? Would be strange if that part of the rumour is just fake when everything else is completely true
Matrindur wrote: Interesting that the Ratlings vs armoured Orks rumours was 100% correct but the Ogryns part of the rumour is missing. Wondering if that might have been a mixup and they are part of something else? Would be strange if that part of the rumour is just fake when everything else is completely true
Maybe someone saw one of the ratling models divorced from any scale context, and thought it was an ogryn? Maybe they thought the doggo was an ogryn doggo?
Hmm, the article does have the following line: "Ratlings in particular are notorious for their light-fingered antics and breathtaking disregard for private property, but their skill as snipers is undeniable – as is the raw power of the Ogryn brutes* who hang out around them."
The asterisk has no link, but Ogryns are mentioned in the Scarper ability, so while they may not be in the box, they can be in the team!
Perhaps you will be able to substitute two or more operatives for a single Ogryn? The fact the Ratling team falls apart when charged at clearly tells us they are in dire need of some CC oomph against melee-heavy teams..
Its likely going to be one of the smaller format sets with only a little terrain inside instead of a full board.
Also it wouldn't be strange at all if they say you can include the normal Ogryn/Bullgryn kit in this team. The Blades of Khaine work the same way after all
Other pics make it look like 2 sets of that sprue, and it is compatible with the terrain from Hive Storm, so it may be like Gallowdark where all the boxes terrain will plug together in the end
MajorWesJanson wrote: Other pics make it look like 2 sets of that sprue, and it is compatible with the terrain from Hive Storm, so it may be like Gallowdark where all the boxes terrain will plug together in the end
I'm sure all the terrain of this season will plug together but the Gallowdark terrain was the same terrain in each box with an indivudal upgrade sprue in each one.
Instead this one instead is specifically called "Compound Siege terrain upgrade" which very much sounds like a smaller terrain set that is supposed to be used in addition to the first one instead. So if this box doesn't include the main terrain from Hivestorm (And I don't know why it would) it sounds more like it would just have the upgrade sprue and you have to buy the base terrain extra compared to Gallowdark. Which is a better solution I would say because at the end of Gallowdark I had way more walls than I needed. This would also likely mean a smaller box. Maybe not as small as Termination/Nightmare/Salvation but then again the Ork kill team is only the second kill team kit ever together with the Necron Hierotek Circle to have less than 10 main models I think? With them only having 5 main models (not counting additions like the bomb squigs or the battlemutt) I could see a bit more terrain while still being the same size and price point as the previous three sets
And would be fun if you're able to swap out a few for an Og or two to give them some melee power, though I suppose the Hardbit looks dead 'ard already. ?
But damn, Ogryn being given the KT treatment would be ace to say the least!
Look at paragraph two of the Scarper ability preview:
After each enemy operative's activtaion, before the next operative is activated, you can perform a free Dash action with one friendly Ratling operative (excluding Bullgryn, Ogryn and Sneak), but it cannot finish that move within 3" of an enemy operative unless it's not visible to every enemy operative when it finishes that move.
For radical speculation, I wonder if this means the start of selling add on boxes for kill teams. Because it looks like the three existing Ogryn/Bullgryn sprues are each slightly different and I can't imagine why they'd redo them.
As I expected, the amount of changes introduced at once makes this release a total mess balance-wise. I wouldn't advise getting used to any of these rules or getting sad/excited because something is weak/strong, as in three months, after first errata/patch the landscape will be totally different.
No comments on the Orks yet?
Personally I find they're okay as a tankbusta replacement. You'll be able to use your existing models next to these just fine, I think there could have been a little more going on with them. Just two rokkits compared to a lot of CC guys with hammers is a little bummer, we'll see how you can equip each one.
Also, why, after beast snaggas, do these guys yet again have to be "bigger and stronger and better armoured than normal boyz"? I find the appeal of Orks is that everything but Nobz is a boy with special stuff.
Concerning the models themselves they look a bit spindly or too upright for Orks, moreso than the new boyz, but it might just be the less heroic proportions.
Overall I'd say they're okay, I'll probably get one Box, but I was more impressed by Kommandos so far. Could be there are more options that we haven't seen yet, though.
It’s what happens with Orks. The more they fight and survive, the bigger and ‘Arder they get.
And there’s a lot of fights going on right now.
In theory, it’s possible for the majority of a successful Waaagh! to end up Nob sized, without them all being Nobz (a Nob remaining at all time the biggest Ork in a given Mob, so it’s all relative).
Checked online and sadly, the Tempestus and Stingwing files are direct copies of the pages from the campaign book. I was hoping for handy double-sided cards like with the other, older teams. Oh well.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: No comments on the Orks yet?
Personally I find they're okay as a tankbusta replacement. You'll be able to use your existing models next to these just fine, I think there could have been a little more going on with them. Just two rokkits compared to a lot of CC guys with hammers is a little bummer, we'll see how you can equip each one.
Also, why, after beast snaggas, do these guys yet again have to be "bigger and stronger and better armoured than normal boyz"? I find the appeal of Orks is that everything but Nobz is a boy with special stuff.
Concerning the models themselves they look a bit spindly or too upright for Orks, moreso than the new boyz, but it might just be the less heroic proportions.
Overall I'd say they're okay, I'll probably get one Box, but I was more impressed by Kommandos so far. Could be there are more options that we haven't seen yet, though.
I actually am not too much of a fan of the Orks. I think the modern Ork sculpts are increasingly losing their iconic character and I don't like how the new unit combines 'Ard boyz, Skarboyz, and Tankbustas into one unit. If I get them, they'll probably be converted into a different unit with the rokkits glued onto less armoured bodies.
I also think Tankbustas are a terrible unit to stick in Kill Team. They hunt tanks for glory, not do spec ops stuff. It's like releasing a Devastator squad for spec ops. Nobz or Flash Gitz would have been a better option. I think they've made the unit a sort of hybrid of Tankbustas and a salvage crew so it makes more sense, but now that is treading on the toes of Burnas and Lootas who do actually go around recovering scrap in their existing lore. The Burna/Loota kit being another one that would make more sense in Kill Team with an upgrade sprue...
BrookM wrote: Maybe I misread, but I thought that the Hive Storm set would also include data cards, but appears to not be the case?
I recall this as well.
I had assumed they would be added to the online team files eventually, but haven't seen it yet...
I think we had assumed because all season boxes did last season, and they're not on sale separately. Definitely an odd choice.
I guess you can make more money by selling people loads of £20 card packs than a compendium which prints all the updated rules for the old teams, and the cards were just a way of delivering printed versions of these rules, rather than being something they plan to use as standard for new teams.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: It’s what happens with Orks. The more they fight and survive, the bigger and ‘Arder they get.
And there’s a lot of fights going on right now.
In theory, it’s possible for the majority of a successful Waaagh! to end up Nob sized, without them all being Nobz (a Nob remaining at all time the biggest Ork in a given Mob, so it’s all relative).
I'm not sure, because a successful Waaaagh! is also much bigger and therefore those veteran Orks have more mooks available to lead. I don't get the impression the average boy lives particularly long, so a fairly small proportion become skarboyz with even less making it to nob. So successful Waaaghs! do have a greater proportion of larger boyz, but I think there is a limit on how much due to attrition. If the enemies are weak they don't get stronger as quickly. Mature Waaaghs! definitely have a core of big ladz though.
On the other hand, Orks also seem to get bigger as population density increases. So just being part of a populous Ork world or big Waaagh! increases Ork size regardless of fighting quality. Not sure if this alone is enough for the default boy to be as big as nobz in smaller populations, but up to skarboy level for Ork empires is speculated by Imperial scientists.
BrookM wrote: Maybe I misread, but I thought that the Hive Storm set would also include data cards, but appears to not be the case?
I recall this as well.
I had assumed they would be added to the online team files eventually, but haven't seen it yet...
I think we had assumed because all season boxes did last season, and they're not on sale separately. Definitely an odd choice.
I guess you can make more money by selling people loads of £20 card packs than a compendium which prints all the updated rules for the old teams, and the cards were just a way of delivering printed versions of these rules, rather than being something they plan to use as standard for new teams.
I actually am not too much of a fan of the Orks. I think the modern Ork sculpts are increasingly losing their iconic character...
Yeah, I've got to agree that these Orks are a swing and a miss for me.
They just don't seem to be cut of the same cloth as most other recent Ork releases, like they were done by someone who didn't read the style guide.
I don't think they have appeared from nowhere, you can see the trends starting around the beast snagga releases. The models are getting more upright, the heads are shrinking. The recent big mek suffers as heavily as these new Tankbustas to me. They look less comical, sure, but that misses the point for Orks IMO. Part of their lore is that they look like idiotic, brutish animals using gear made from scrap that get consistently underestimated by arrogant Imperial officers. If they look less comical and more threatening it undermines that theming IMO.
Plus, GW Orks are an iconic and fairly unique take on Orcs that has since spawned an entire brand of orcs across media (like the Warcraft orcs). Their design and lore are some of the more unique things GW came up with I don't know why they want to move away from such an iconic and beloved design language.
Obviously aesthetics are entirely subjective, but it is the exact opposite for me with Kruleboyz. I really don't like them.
However, I have no problem with them existing as their own army with a separate aesthetic. It is that design ethos slowly creeping into the other Ork lines that frustrates me.
I love kruleboyz, wasn't really an or(c)k fan before that (goblins/gnoblars/grots/gretchin/snotlings are a different matter). I also dig primaris, never really much bothered w marines before that, the only place I'd say marines suffered is the loss of the iconic mk7 helmet, everything else is a close enough approximation of what came before to not really be noticeable. But the helmets? As much as I love the current helmet designs, the older mk7 were better and more immediately recognizable, to the point that I basically define whether a marine is primaris or firstborn by what helmet its wearing - putting a mk7 helmet on a primaris marine really trips me up and makes me have to look closer to figure out what's what.
Disagree quite a lot with the aesthetic change of Orks.
It's not like that has never happened before? The difference between 2nd edition and 3rd edition was massive.
The old Tankbustas were a bit more crouched and covered in scrap. These new ones, I suppose you could say their kit was a bit more refined? Less stuck together and more armed and armoured.
Put it in the "other games" section for now, if there's enough traffic to justify a split, I'll nudge the powers that be and see if anything can be done.
Dysartes wrote: Question for those who have existing teams with new rules - how similar are the new rules to the previous edition?
Wondering how practical it might be for "the community" to port over Compendium teams to the new edition.
I think it would fairly easy to do the port. The bespoke teams that received the most changes were the season 1 and 2 teams, and of those, it was the ones that received numerous balance changes to the rules over the last 3 years that are the most different now.
The compendium received very few balance changes, as they are simpler to begin with. I would go hog-wild in "updating" the compendium to the new edition, which mostly entails replacing special rules with their current keyword and replacing weapon profiles with their current profile.
I would happily help out with playtesting the glaring omissions from the range as currently presented.
Deathwatch, Custodies, SoBs, Vanguard hive fleet (lictors and stealers?), anyone else needed beyond longstanding ommissions like eldar pathfinders.
Questionable need for development?
Grey Knights? (Demon hunters perhaps aren't generic kill teams? Though crying out for a vs box with demons as NPCs, like terminators with 'Stealers in the same vein), Death Guard/thousand sons? (As legionnaires still exist), Demons? (Better as NPCs for grey knights?), Proper Necron infiltrator options?
Presumably you are excluding purestrain Genestealers from that? The most obvious Tyranid team is based around purestrain 'Stealers who are described in lore as highly intelligent and able to operate machinery like doors. This overlaps with GSCs but the hive fleets make great use of them too.
I think it was silly we didn't get a Genestealer team during the literal space hulk season, but I also think there's an element of, if we didn't get one then, we never will.
We also didn't get the traditional enemies of the genestealers in space hulk either. Heck we didn't get Space Marines of any type (for a change).
Absolutely baffling why terminators vs 'stealers wasn't either a stand alone game bolted onto the terrain release or actual kill teams.
New rumour from a very reputable leaker over on TGA:
A new KT Starter Set: Space Marines (Space Marines Heroes Series 4) vs Death Guard (Space Marines Heroes Series 3) and cardboard/MDF terrain.
I was told it's not just blank cardboard/MDF, but it has pictures of buildings similar in style to Hivestorm terrain printed on
There were rumours about GW going into MDF terrain a year or so ago so interesting that it might have been for this. I'm expecting something like the terrain in the Infinity operations sets
Matrindur wrote: New rumour from a very reputable leaker over on TGA:
A new KT Starter Set: Space Marines (Space Marines Heroes Series 4) vs Death Guard (Space Marines Heroes Series 3) and cardboard/MDF terrain.
I was told it's not just blank cardboard/MDF, but it has pictures of buildings similar in style to Hivestorm terrain printed on
There were rumours about GW going into MDF terrain a year or so ago so interesting that it might have been for this. I'm expecting something like the terrain in the Infinity operations sets
I get why, but man I woulda really preferred series 1. A last hurrah for firstborn, one final starter set with them in 40k.
Small addon from the original poster about the terrain:
They described it as multiple flat walls and obstacles with images printed on them. For me, it sounds somewhat 2-dimensional and I feel like it might be cardboard rather than MDF
Matrindur wrote: New rumour from a very reputable leaker over on TGA:
A new KT Starter Set: Space Marines (Space Marines Heroes Series 4) vs Death Guard (Space Marines Heroes Series 3) and cardboard/MDF terrain.
I was told it's not just blank cardboard/MDF, but it has pictures of buildings similar in style to Hivestorm terrain printed on
There were rumours about GW going into MDF terrain a year or so ago so interesting that it might have been for this. I'm expecting something like the terrain in the Infinity operations sets
This set is fantastic for another reason – the all-new terrain. If it looks oddly wooden, that’s because it is. The Kill Team Starter Set comes with easy-assembly printed MDF terrain that slots together in seconds, so you can get right into your first games without needing to build and paint loads of plastic walls and ruins.
Not only does it build and set up easily, but it also packs down flat as… well, a board, making it the most portable and convenient terrain since those little folding cardboard walls that serious Warhammer veterans may remember from the second edition of Warhammer 40,000. It’s a genuinely exciting prospect for those of us who want to quickly pop a game out of our pockets at lunchtime – a common occurrence in the Warhammer Community office.
Dysartes wrote: Is the guy with the flies the alt Plaguecaster that was in the paintset?
Yes.
That model was selling for more than the cost of this entire set no so long ago... (though it was included in the second run of the SMH vol 3 set, so it's value had gone down a lot).
Didn't take long for that rumour to get confirmed huh?
This is quite a turn around for GW. Not into Nurgle at all( absolutely revolting! ) but if the starter set price is good then KT will definitely be back with a vengence.
I hope this means cool, dedicated rules for Plague Marines. I love my KT Death Guard but it would be nice to play them as proper Plague Marines not just Legionaries with a Mark of Nurgle.
Cyel wrote: I hope this means cool, dedicated rules for Plague Marines. I love my KT Death Guard but it would be nice to play them as proper Plague Marines not just Legionaries with a Mark of Nurgle.
The article confirms it does.
I quite like this. It's the sort of box that would previously have got some cardboard terrain in it, or just terrain printed on the board. I see it as an upgrade to that rather than a downgrade from plastic.
Well GW's unwillingness to do anything but plastic terrain costed at around $1,000 to adequately cover a 6'x4' table did allow a robust MDF terrain market to grow. That's money they're missing out on.
Come to think of it, this feels like they've come full circle( price still pending ) with First Strike and KT'18. For £50 you were up and running with an introductionary game of Kill Team...
Cyel wrote: I hope this means cool, dedicated rules for Plague Marines.
The article confirms it does.
The article confirms rules will be cool? How so? I'm not that sure. Because, for example, Compendium Death Guard were pretty crippled by their 4" movement, even if the rest of their rules were fine and thematic.
Compendium teams were a far cry from the bespoke teams of KT21 though. Their rules were lot more streamlined, though they did have more relaxed model options most of the time..
Looks like they're trying to maximise the pushfit for a starter for lowest bar for engagement.
The mdf is specifically described as slot together and pull apart, and it's already 'painted' so it's finished and just needs to be slotted together to use.
It's more of a boardgame starter than a wargame starter.
Assuming the price is right, the KT starter box looks like a great product that I'm surprised is getting so much hate. I hope the two teams still come in colored plastic because with push-fit minis and push-fit pre-colored MDF terrain, that would make this one of the quickest unbox-to-gaming boxes GW has made. I already have all the minis from the original releases, but I'd love to have a set or two of the terrain.
According to the person who first shared the news the starter set will be the same price as the warcry one which is £67.50. It is probably the next thing up for pre-order after the legions Imperialis stuff.
Would love to see Irbis' take on this, and how it fits into the "Valrak only predicts inevitable obvious things" theory.
Shout out to everyone else in that thread whose imaginations were too small to encompass "GW tries MDF terrain". I wouldn't be surprised if the box bombs and they never try it again, but hey, it exists! GW took their weird shot!
Would love to see Irbis' take on this, and how it fits into the "Valrak only predicts inevitable obvious things" theory.
Shout out to everyone else in that thread whose imaginations were too small to encompass "GW tries MDF terrain". I wouldn't be surprised if the box bombs and they never try it again, but hey, it exists! GW took their weird shot!
I'd much rather they keep the plastic terrain they make in stock than mess around with MDF
I agree with the people saying the price point on this set will see it so well, or not.
Reading the text it really is designed for newcomers which most Dakka users are not lol. Meaning for those upset about MDF terrain really shouldn't be as it's not really aimed at those people. Most veterans would have some plastic terrain already, especially if they've been playing Kill team before.
Quote from WC:
"But for those just starting down the path of Kill Team, there's a Starter Set coming to teach you .....14 push-fit miniatures in two teams .....
designed to be easy for newcomers to play .....
The new 64-page introductory rulebook is designed from the ground up to guide new players through their first few missions, starting simple and adding newconcepts as it goes along until a final climactic confrontation puts all of the commanders’ newknowledge to the test. Newbuilders can follow clear construction guides .....
Finally, the booklet caps off with a few advanced rules and extra mission conditions to showcase a little of the full Kill Team experience."
Sounds almost like a lite version to get newbies up and running. Wonder if people who play this will want to go into more of the full experience.
As I personally haven't played this version of Kill Team I'm interested. I don't even mind the MDF terrain, article says it's designed to fold flat again after too so it sounds transportable. Whether it lasts or not who knows yet but I have some plastic terrain so I'm not really worried. I know I'm not really the intended audience but I think the teams look good.
Thing is whether I buy in or not is the price but only because there's so many other miniature games I'm interested in. Sadly I can't collect them all lol.
lost_lilliputian wrote: I agree with the people saying the price point on this set will see it so well, or not.
Reading the text it really is designed for newcomers which most Dakka users are not lol. Meaning for those upset about MDF terrain really shouldn't be as it's not really aimed at those people. Most veterans would have some plastic terrain already, especially if they've been playing Kill team before.
Quote from WC:
"But for those just starting down the path of Kill Team, there's a Starter Set coming to teach you .....14 push-fit miniatures in two teams .....
designed to be easy for newcomers to play .....
The new 64-page introductory rulebook is designed from the ground up to guide new players through their first few missions, starting simple and adding newconcepts as it goes along until a final climactic confrontation puts all of the commanders’ newknowledge to the test. Newbuilders can follow clear construction guides .....
Finally, the booklet caps off with a few advanced rules and extra mission conditions to showcase a little of the full Kill Team experience."
Sounds almost like a lite version to get newbies up and running. Wonder if people who play this will want to go into more of the full experience.
As I personally haven't played this version of Kill Team I'm interested. I don't even mind the MDF terrain, article says it's designed to fold flat again after too so it sounds transportable. Whether it lasts or not who knows yet but I have some plastic terrain so I'm not really worried. I know I'm not really the intended audience but I think the teams look good.
Thing is whether I buy in or not is the price but only because there's so many other miniature games I'm interested in. Sadly I can't collect them all lol.
They're kind of getting under my skin with kill team. It's likely a me problem, but I thought we'd get free rules period (I know this is a misunderstanding), I didn't want to buy the big box, I don't really want to but a £37.50 rulebook + accessories kit + a kill team to play solo/coop, which was the plan, so I waited for the normal starter set. Except that doesn't have those rules in either, so they've largely lost my custom for this I think.
If you really, really want rules on paper that will be out of date before 2025 properly starts you may always find the rulebook from Hivestorm sold separately on any internet auction site of your choice. For example my preferred site has those at about (the equivalent of) 17£.
Or you may wait a bit until the rules get properly transferred into an updateable, searchable, hyperlinked digital format (which is what GW app should have) by some helpful third party.
And no, it's not a misunderstanding. Free core rules were expected to be available in the app based on how GW announced it.
Personally, I don't think this is up to par for the sort of quality that GW should be striving for. I think for the cost they charge for their games normally, they should be including plastic terrain which is why they stand out over their (cheaper) competition which might include MDF terrain in their 'knock off' version of kill team terrain. I like MDF terrain but I buy GW for the detailed plastics.
That said, I wanted the plague marines before but refused to buy the blind boxes as I wanted a couple of specific sculpts. Some for an AoS warband and some for some Necromunda-adjacent projects. Depending on the price I could happily pick this up and add the MDF terrain as scatter to my mix of existing MDF stuff.
I just wouldn't want to see this to become the normal standard for GW sets, I'd would have much preferred them to have included a sprue of really old plastic like the old oil drums or the old ruins or something rather than lean into MDF. But I get why they might test the market for these. I dont really like the Kill team sales model anyway but do like the models, so if this takes off I can see this becoming just as expensive but a way of making the contents cheaper. So I'm really not the target audience.
It wasn't that long ago we got 9th edition starters that told you to turn the box upside down and use it as terrain, so this is a step up from that. I also think the fact that it can (presumably) all go back in a board game-size box once built is an advantage that's given short-shrift by many committed wargamers.
It seems silly, but that question of "okay, where do I put this now?" does factor in quite a bit with those entirely new to this.
I think the MDF is a pretty cool idea. It lets you use the terrain basically immediately, without having to build and paint a load of plastic; and then you can pack it down flat so that you don't end up with a cubic metre of gothic ruins to try and store.
It would probably be even better in cardboard; but 2nd edition 40K is a lost age...
Lord Damocles wrote: Yet more evidence that you're a mug if you buy blind boxes.
So I'm a mug for..... buying the entire set (there was no random), at my shops usual discount, and then enjoying using the models in many many games over the past few years?
Lord Damocles wrote: Yet more evidence that you're a mug if you buy blind boxes.
So I'm a mug for..... buying the entire set (there was no random), at my shops usual discount, and then enjoying using the models in many many games over the past few years?
That's not exactly a blind buy though is it.
But I don't think that you really missed my point that hard.
RexHavoc wrote: Personally, I don't think this is up to par for the sort of quality that GW should be striving for. I think for the cost they charge for their games normally, they should be including plastic terrain which is why they stand out over their (cheaper) competition which might include MDF terrain in their 'knock off' version of kill team terrain. I like MDF terrain but I buy GW for the detailed plastics.
Considering sourcing mdf definitely costs GW more than just shooting a few terrain sprues they already have tooled in house, and is probably heavier to ship to boot, my guess is the sole point of this bizarre escapade is to inflate the perceived value of plastic terrain, even at the cost of "losing money" on this set.
Personally I felt that they had the right idea with KT'18 where they provided WD rules to use Blackstone Fortress for indoor combat. Multiple maps that are easy to choose and get set up, and much better than expecting players to assemble and paint a load of wall models and bits and bobs, as they did for Gallowdark and the other expansions for KT'21.
I think GW would do well if they went for a middle ground with mdf and plastic, similar to the original Necromunda game from the mid-90s. When you have a long flat stretch of card you can mix it up with a more detailed plastic component, such as a connection between two pieces of mdf.
Comparing the price of MDF to plastic is sort of like picking up a hand of dirt from here, and then picking up a hand of dirt from over there and wondering which is the more valuable. Both cost next to nothing until they put a logo on its box.
So same price as previous which had plastic terrain and 22 minis... this one has 14minis and MDF.
Wait a couple years guys and you will get 8 minis and paper.
Someone mentioned Brand value, and yes I agree. Regardless of starters or core sets the quality should be consistent and up there alongside with the prices, I mean thats GW main selling point.
RexHavoc wrote: Personally, I don't think this is up to par for the sort of quality that GW should be striving for. I think for the cost they charge for their games normally, they should be including plastic terrain which is why they stand out over their (cheaper) competition which might include MDF terrain in their 'knock off' version of kill team terrain. I like MDF terrain but I buy GW for the detailed plastics.
Considering sourcing mdf definitely costs GW more than just shooting a few terrain sprues they already have tooled in house, and is probably heavier to ship to boot, my guess is the sole point of this bizarre escapade is to inflate the perceived value of plastic terrain, even at the cost of "losing money" on this set.
There's also potentially a benefit to outsourcing something that you're committing to supporting for a number of years that doesn't take up a production slot on the main machines. Depending on how many sprues the terrain would take.
I guess also being a part of a test run for some tournament support as well where you can just ship someone a crate of ready to go stuff that fits your set layouts.
Though really I suspect, given some of the interviews the product design guys have given, this is kind of a test in how much interest there would be in the ready to go battlefield. I think the minis would always be self assemble and paint, but the bulk, shared "boring" stuff being ready to go out of the box easily fits in the mindset behind stuff like contrast paint.
What steps can you take to make things quicker to get to the good stuff.
Painting guide is up already - these models are in blue and green plastic.
Probably not the same price bracket as the only rumor is £67.50. Lots of people don't want to build, paint and store terrain, so the value of it is up for debate.
People are perpetually salty and whiny over everything these days… oh no, some plebes might enjoy our game too, if there was an easier way to get into it! If this set gets more people playing Kill Team and into GW, is that not a good thing?
It’ll probably end up around half the price of a Hivestorm starter, and a fraction of the work to get playing. And the price point would be competitive with other entry level sets. BattleTech Alpha Strike is $80 USD, and has 13 decent minis, and cardboard terrain at that price point. You might pay $30 more or so for a similar number, but higher quality models and sturdier but still simple MDF terrain with this starter.
Dudeface wrote: They're kind of getting under my skin with kill team. It's likely a me problem, but I thought we'd get free rules period (I know this is a misunderstanding), I didn't want to buy the big box, I don't really want to but a £37.50 rulebook + accessories kit + a kill team to play solo/coop, which was the plan, so I waited for the normal starter set. Except that doesn't have those rules in either, so they've largely lost my custom for this I think.
FYI, the WarCom article revealing the new Starter set gives us this nugget, “while the full rules used in regular Kill Team games will be available for download from the Warhammer Community website.” Ask and you shall receive…
Dudeface wrote: They're kind of getting under my skin with kill team. It's likely a me problem, but I thought we'd get free rules period (I know this is a misunderstanding), I didn't want to buy the big box, I don't really want to but a £37.50 rulebook + accessories kit + a kill team to play solo/coop, which was the plan, so I waited for the normal starter set. Except that doesn't have those rules in either, so they've largely lost my custom for this I think.
FYI, the WarCom article revealing the new Starter set gives us this nugget, “while the full rules used in regular Kill Team games will be available for download from the Warhammer Community website.” Ask and you shall receive…
Not to be salty, but I worry that they are going to weasel their way around with “regular” KT games. So you have the rules to play a one off game, but not a campaign, or solo/coop, or any other game modes.
They have a habit of the free rules being barely enough to play an intro game, but not a lot more.
FYI, the WarCom article revealing the new Starter set gives us this nugget, “while the full rules used in regular Kill Team games will be available for download from the Warhammer Community website.” Ask and you shall receive…
Yeah... Warcom has SAID a lot of things that turned out to be incorrect.
The Lite rules on downloads right now are worth about as much as the marketing degrees of idiots who use the word (not word) "Lite" to describe their products.
I said it from the beginning- you're not getting coop or solo rules free and you're not getting Spec Ops at all. KT24 is DOA hot garbage.
And just wait until you find out that the new gangs only have free rules if you buy the box and get the QR code just like you've got to buy the dex to get access to the "free rules" in 40k. They did put Aquillons and Vespid up, so there's a chance I'm wrong about this last point... But time will tell.
Billicus wrote: Probably not the same price bracket as the only rumor is £67.50. Lots of people don't want to build, paint and store terrain, so the value of it is up for debate.
than Kill Team is the wrong game for them as it needs a good amount of 3D terrain to play
If one doesn't like that, it would be better playing something else rather than be happy that GW get you a bix that is pretty much useless for the game as a standalone product without purchasing more terrain
So as long as GW doesn't add a full MDF lineup for 3D terrain, stay away from KT if one doesn't like building/painting/storing terrain
RexHavoc wrote: Personally, I don't think this is up to par for the sort of quality that GW should be striving for. I think for the cost they charge for their games normally, they should be including plastic terrain which is why they stand out over their (cheaper) competition which might include MDF terrain in their 'knock off' version of kill team terrain. I like MDF terrain but I buy GW for the detailed plastics.
Considering sourcing mdf definitely costs GW more than just shooting a few terrain sprues they already have tooled in house, and is probably heavier to ship to boot, my guess is the sole point of this bizarre escapade is to inflate the perceived value of plastic terrain, even at the cost of "losing money" on this set.
MDF is much cheaper to produce than plastics. No contest in terms of development and production.
This is (likely) going to be a low cost starter designed for those who want to dip their toe in Kill Team.
Clearly not for seasoned players, but not a bad idea for getting new players into the game.
Billicus wrote: Probably not the same price bracket as the only rumor is £67.50. Lots of people don't want to build, paint and store terrain, so the value of it is up for debate.
than Kill Team is the wrong game for them as it needs a good amount of 3D terrain to play
If one doesn't like that, it would be better playing something else rather than be happy that GW get you a bix that is pretty much useless for the game as a standalone product without purchasing more terrain
So as long as GW doesn't add a full MDF lineup for 3D terrain, stay away from KT if one doesn't like building/painting/storing terrain
Plenty of people play at clubs and stores that provide terrain. I know loads of players that don't collect terrain as they don't play in their own home. A little bit of variety in the products available never killed anyone, and I don't think GW are gonna stop making terrain kits.
RexHavoc wrote: Personally, I don't think this is up to par for the sort of quality that GW should be striving for. I think for the cost they charge for their games normally, they should be including plastic terrain which is why they stand out over their (cheaper) competition which might include MDF terrain in their 'knock off' version of kill team terrain. I like MDF terrain but I buy GW for the detailed plastics.
Considering sourcing mdf definitely costs GW more than just shooting a few terrain sprues they already have tooled in house, and is probably heavier to ship to boot, my guess is the sole point of this bizarre escapade is to inflate the perceived value of plastic terrain, even at the cost of "losing money" on this set.
MDF is much cheaper to produce than plastics. No contest in terms of development and production.
Thats assuming a new plastic kit, but GW has dozens of plastic terrain kits where they have already sunk the development investment and just need to pull the mould off the shelf and give it a dust. So reusing such an asset is probably cheaper for GW than starting a brand new supply chain for a new material that they had no prior development work in.
I can very much believe this release is testing the waters for future mdf releases.
RexHavoc wrote: Personally, I don't think this is up to par for the sort of quality that GW should be striving for. I think for the cost they charge for their games normally, they should be including plastic terrain which is why they stand out over their (cheaper) competition which might include MDF terrain in their 'knock off' version of kill team terrain. I like MDF terrain but I buy GW for the detailed plastics.
Considering sourcing mdf definitely costs GW more than just shooting a few terrain sprues they already have tooled in house, and is probably heavier to ship to boot, my guess is the sole point of this bizarre escapade is to inflate the perceived value of plastic terrain, even at the cost of "losing money" on this set.
MDF is much cheaper to produce than plastics. No contest in terms of development and production.
False, especially if GW already has the production tooling for plastic terrain available for re-use from a previous release (they most definitely do). The terrain being shown would be a couple pennies worth of plastic vs about a quarters worth of mdf. The processing time involved with printing the graphics, however that's done, will be time and cost intensive as well. Ignoring that for a second. In the time it would take to laser cut a single kits worth of terrain (probably about 5 minutes - with a higher power laser they could probably cut about a half dozen at once provided theres no engraving), GW could produce several dozen kits worth of plastics.
deano2099 wrote: The plastic terrain is done in china though right? If the MDF can be done in the UK then that changes the calculations massively.
Mostly it is made in the UK. Some kits have been outsourced. They are normally of noticeably worse quality than the in-house terrain kit. I got a plasma obliterator which was a Chinese run, and it is probably the hardest to assemble GW plastic terrain kit I've worked on. The detail is decent but there was a lot of flash and the parts did not fit together well.
deano2099 wrote: The plastic terrain is done in china though right? If the MDF can be done in the UK then that changes the calculations massively.
Mostly it is made in the UK. Some kits have been outsourced. They are normally of noticeably worse quality than the in-house terrain kit. I got a plasma obliterator which was a Chinese run, and it is probably the hardest to assemble GW plastic terrain kit I've worked on. The detail is decent but there was a lot of flash and the parts did not fit together well.
Wall of Martyrs and Deathworld Jungle stuff were all china made. Kits on proper sprues, like Sector Mechanicus, Imperialis, Zone Mortalis, ect are all made on the main UK machines.
I believe that depends on the terrain kit in question. There have been some made in the UK over the years, imperialis/titanicus ruins for example.
It probably doesn't change the considerations massively. The reason they're doing it in China to begin with is because it's even cheaper than doing it in the UK. Terrain doesn't sell well, only nutjobs like HMBC and I buy it in appreciable quantities, most folks don't care for it. That means they have to do smaller production lots, which translates to a higher cost per sprue, but that needs to be offset vs the price a consumer is willing to pay. In order to preserve their margins and make it economically feasible and financially lucrative, they have shifted that production to China to reduce the production costs and increase margins on those products. It also allows them to prioritize higher margin/better selling merchandise at their UK operation so they can optimize the financial efficiency of the UK manufacturing operation. Because so much of the terrain is "one and done"/not in continual production, the costs of outsourcing are minimized and mitigated - cost of poor quality is kept down due to small production lot sizes and the impact of shipping delays on restocks etc are eliminated because often the products in question just aren't restocked.
MDF makes sense for a guy working out of their garage because startup and operating costs are low - a few hundred to a couple thousand bucks gets you a laser cutter setup without much hassle. If you're starting out you can buy sheets of mdf at your local hardware store for pocket change, if you're already in the thick of it it's a few hundred bucks a month probably to get bulk rate deliveries. The software needed is fairly straightforward and easy to use, there's no special permits or industrial handling equipment needed, etc. The barriers to entry are low, and the process works for low volume production when you're getting maybe a handful of orders per week, which are fulfilled from a small active inventory or are made to order.
The same guy would need to spend 6 figures to get setup for plastic projection, just the cost of an injection molding machine of suitable size will run mid-high 6 figures minimum and take up your entire garage, then there's another 5 figure investment in getting the utility company to run industrial power feeds to your garage (that's said tongue in cheek - this just isn't happening in your garage, you need to rent or buy a facility for this) + electricians to rewire power in your house and run dedicated circuiting, another 5-6 figures on industrial hvac systems, exhaust and probably also wastewater permitting, etc. You're spending thousands on raw materials that can only be purchased in bulk quantity, etc. Then you need expensive software and an engineering degree to actually properly operate the equipment. Molds start in the 5 figures for a decent sized terrain kit if you're outsourcing the tool making, if you're not, you're looking at another 6 figure investment into equipment and either another college degree or a trade apprenticeship to understand how to properly make the tool. Add in forklift training and industrial handling equipment for good measure. Putting aside most of those considerations, the process itself is only really suited to manufacturing at scale where you're producing and selling kits in the thousands+ so you need to have space to actually store all this stuff and probably a paid staff to manage all the production and sales operations at that point. If you're a startup and trying to recover your costs and break even, it's a steep hill to climb and few people have that kind of money lying around, that's why you see a lot of guys making mdf kits and very few making plastics. Not because it's "cheaper" but because it's financially viable at the scale that these guys are operating.
But, the factors that make mdf viable for a small time operation are in many cases the same factors that make them non-viable for large scale high volume operations where plastics are otherwise justified. Your material costs are higher and there's more waste involved (plastics have sprues, mdf has all the uncut material which often translates to a higher relative proportion of the product), the production throughput is significantly lower due to the factor of time it takes to laser cut the material (which cannot be dramatically increased as that requires a hotter laser, but the material you're cutting is flammable and will ignite and burn if the temperature cranks up top high) unless you get a lot of cutters operating parallel (very space intensive unless you can figure out a way to stack them vertically - ie expensive), and it's also labor intensive and requires a lot of handling vs injection molding (and automation is difficult).
Unless GW has invented a whole new production process (possible though unlikely), the reason for this most likely is not "because it's cheaper". More likely it's because of accessibility (as others noted, easier to assemble, doesn't require paint) or supply chain resiliency (looming trade and/or kinetic wars with China, etc).
As you mention there's fewer benefits to scale from MDF so it's also possible they have local production in each major region. Extra cost to shipping is less of a problem if you're not shipping over oceans.
I guess we will find out when it publishes. (It's also quite possible this turns out to be a region-locked product, they have certainly done that before and not mentioned it in the initial announcement)
which would only work if you also have packaging in each region
there is no benefit in making mdf regional, but the plastics that go into the box are with the cardboard and booklets in Nottingham
shipping the parts to the regional hub to pair them with the terrain is increasing the cost even more
I have to add a likely to be unpopular hot take here after starting assembly of my Hivestorm set - the Vespid may be the worst new kit I’ve seen from GW in a long time. The detail is lumpy and blobby, instead of crisp and clean. The fit is indifferent and ambiguous at times. And the mold lines are EVERYWHERE!
I’d have believed it if with no foreknowledge someone told me this kit was from 2004, and not 2024. It’s going to be a slog to get these even semi presentable.
so similar to the Ork Kill Team, or at least the frames some people got
with everyone always being highly positive and never showing not cleaned up models, hard to tell of this are all the models or just some faulty sprues
I built the Kommandos, and I think the Vespid are worse. Day two, and it took me a solid hour to clean up and build a single Vespid. Almost so bad that you’d think they subcontracted the design or molding job to someone else…
MDF is an odd choice, given that they have plenty of plastic... but it does make sense if you want new players, right out of the box, to have a decent looking game. Assuming the models are cast in blue and green plastic, with the board and printed terrain, new players will have a nice looking game in what, an hour or two?
GW is rebooting underworlds as a skirmish game in a box, Spearhead is a (really fun) fantasy battle game in a box, and now kill team is a full game in a box. this is real full court press to make the game accessible to new players, people who are lore folks, people who have drifted away, etc. Now if only they could fix combat patrol...
totalfailure wrote: I have to add a likely to be unpopular hot take here after starting assembly of my Hivestorm set - the Vespid may be the worst new kit I’ve seen from GW in a long time. The detail is lumpy and blobby, instead of crisp and clean. The fit is indifferent and ambiguous at times. And the mold lines are EVERYWHERE!
I’d have believed it if with no foreknowledge someone told me this kit was from 2004, and not 2024. It’s going to be a slog to get these even semi presentable.
I saw a painting video that mentioned the mold line issue and was pleased to find that mine were not nearly as bad. So maybe there is more variation that usual? (for a new kit at least)
Anecdotally, I assembled my vespid this morning, and besides the time taking to learn the knack of getting the hip joints to fit, there was no real problem.
I’m glad others aren’t having the same experience. My Vespid are just nasty, and disappointing for a new kit. Obviously, mileage varies. I’m glad I’m not a Tau player. I sure won’t be tracking down any more when they release in a solo box.
Also, all the wing sets work on pretty much any of the bodies from what I can work out.
You just have to be careful to match the arms, since some wing/arm combos will not fit together. The chest piece/middle limbs are also interchangeable, but again need to be careful not to intersect with other protruding parts.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: It’s what happens with Orks. The more they fight and survive, the bigger and ‘Arder they get.
And there’s a lot of fights going on right now.
In theory, it’s possible for the majority of a successful Waaagh! to end up Nob sized, without them all being Nobz (a Nob remaining at all time the biggest Ork in a given Mob, so it’s all relative).
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: It’s what happens with Orks. The more they fight and survive, the bigger and ‘Arder they get.
And there’s a lot of fights going on right now.
In theory, it’s possible for the majority of a successful Waaagh! to end up Nob sized, without them all being Nobz (a Nob remaining at all time the biggest Ork in a given Mob, so it’s all relative).
So Nobz are Mobz, but not all Mobz are Nobz?
Nobz are the ones who tell Mobz to shut their Gobz
The Nob remains the ‘ardest Ork in the Mob, hence a sliding scale.
Though I suppose with a constant influx of new Boyz, you’re still going to have mobs of Just Boyz, because no self respecting established, well ‘ard Mob is gonna accept a weedy yoof or twelve.
The 360 degree mold seam around the parts is unpleasant, but wouldn’t be so bad if it wasn’t on so many curved and segmented parts. It’s really poor on the weapons as well. The standard blaster has tons of angle changes and nooks and crannies. And there’s a seam all the way around.
I think you just have a bad cast there; none of mine were anywhere near that bad. Maybe talk to customer service about it, see if they can do anything.
Phobos Strike Team and Legionaries go up 5€
Kasrkin go up 3,75€
Inquisitorial Agents go up 2,50€
Pathfinders go up 7,50€? (not sure what they were before I think 47,50€ but could have been 45€ too. Big increase either way)
Probably £67.50 then the same as the 40k and AoS Starter Sets, not the cheaper Introductory Sets.
I haven't liked the 40k/AoS Introductory and Starter last few editions afor introducing a younger relative. They've been Marines vs Hordes, Necrons were probably the best opponent for slightly less hordiness but you still ended up with a lot of Warriors/Scarabs. But you still have the issue that one side of the box kills stuff, the other side just kind of stands around dying (scoring points but a youngster won't care about that).
I really like Marines vs Marines as an introduction for a younger relative as both sides will kill at the same pace, but was hoping for the Introducty Set price £42.50 or at least in the middle of the two prices at £55.
Were the Space Marine Hero sets this is made up not £35-£40 each?
Is a regular Squad of 7 Plague Marines not £37 right now? and the smallest box of Intercessors £40?
So a chunk cheaper than that, plus terrain and an intro rule book. Not sure how it works out as a bad deal. More than is ideal for a starter set I'd agree, and the usual caveat that GW prices are in a league of their own anyway. But as "deals" go seems fairly decent?
deano2099 wrote: Were the Space Marine Hero sets this is made up not £35-£40 each?
Is a regular Squad of 7 Plague Marines not £37 right now? and the smallest box of Intercessors £40?
So a chunk cheaper than that, plus terrain and an intro rule book. Not sure how it works out as a bad deal. More than is ideal for a starter set I'd agree, and the usual caveat that GW prices are in a league of their own anyway. But as "deals" go seems fairly decent?
I already addressed this
"So same price as previous which had plastic terrain and 22 minis... this one has 14minis and MDF."
deano2099 wrote: Were the Space Marine Hero sets this is made up not £35-£40 each?
Is a regular Squad of 7 Plague Marines not £37 right now? and the smallest box of Intercessors £40?
So a chunk cheaper than that, plus terrain and an intro rule book. Not sure how it works out as a bad deal. More than is ideal for a starter set I'd agree, and the usual caveat that GW prices are in a league of their own anyway. But as "deals" go seems fairly decent?
I already addressed this
"So same price as previous which had plastic terrain and 22 minis... this one has 14minis and MDF."
For a new player, both miniatures and terrain are easier to assemble.
deano2099 wrote: Were the Space Marine Hero sets this is made up not £35-£40 each?
Is a regular Squad of 7 Plague Marines not £37 right now? and the smallest box of Intercessors £40?
So a chunk cheaper than that, plus terrain and an intro rule book. Not sure how it works out as a bad deal. More than is ideal for a starter set I'd agree, and the usual caveat that GW prices are in a league of their own anyway. But as "deals" go seems fairly decent?
Yeah, some people are willing to throw 60€ just for the Plaguecaster alone Not that bad and hopefully it'll give that caster a price I'm content with on eBay as I need nothing else from that Set.
deano2099 wrote: Were the Space Marine Hero sets this is made up not £35-£40 each?
Is a regular Squad of 7 Plague Marines not £37 right now? and the smallest box of Intercessors £40?
So a chunk cheaper than that, plus terrain and an intro rule book. Not sure how it works out as a bad deal. More than is ideal for a starter set I'd agree, and the usual caveat that GW prices are in a league of their own anyway. But as "deals" go seems fairly decent?
Yeah, some people are willing to throw 60€ just for the Plaguecaster alone Not that bad and hopefully it'll give that caster a price I'm content with on eBay as I need nothing else from that Set.
IIRC they were blind boxes, and like 500 yen a pop, any secondary market prices were just supply and demand and could vary wildly.
deano2099 wrote: Were the Space Marine Hero sets this is made up not £35-£40 each?
Is a regular Squad of 7 Plague Marines not £37 right now? and the smallest box of Intercessors £40?
So a chunk cheaper than that, plus terrain and an intro rule book. Not sure how it works out as a bad deal. More than is ideal for a starter set I'd agree, and the usual caveat that GW prices are in a league of their own anyway. But as "deals" go seems fairly decent?
Yeah, some people are willing to throw 60€ just for the Plaguecaster alone Not that bad and hopefully it'll give that caster a price I'm content with on eBay as I need nothing else from that Set.
IIRC they were blind boxes, and like 500 yen a pop, any secondary market prices were just supply and demand and could vary wildly.
They had a release in the UK at least, and you could buy a box of 6 or 8 which guaranteed you everything. They sold out in minutes though I think.
deano2099 wrote: Were the Space Marine Hero sets this is made up not £35-£40 each?
Is a regular Squad of 7 Plague Marines not £37 right now? and the smallest box of Intercessors £40?
So a chunk cheaper than that, plus terrain and an intro rule book. Not sure how it works out as a bad deal. More than is ideal for a starter set I'd agree, and the usual caveat that GW prices are in a league of their own anyway. But as "deals" go seems fairly decent?
I already addressed this
"So same price as previous which had plastic terrain and 22 minis... this one has 14minis and MDF."
Why does the number of minis matter? There are fewer minis because the teams have a smaller number of minis. But the minis are also bigger in size... if this came with a Necron Kill Team that had 10 warriors and 10 scarab swarms would you be talking about how much better value it was? Or would you think that was silly?
Also there's the small matter of rampant inflation the last three years. A £68 set in October 2021 would be priced at £85 now just from inflation. In real terms it is £17 cheaper. And you can play out of the box.
The numer of minis matters because we buy a physical product not an arbitrary game design decision which team has how many operatives /which models cost how many points.
That said, with models being larger and more detailed it is understandable, as is your inflation argument.
Cyel wrote: The numer of minis matters because we buy a physical product not an arbitrary game design decision which team has how many operatives /which models cost how many points.
That said, with models being larger and more detailed it is understandable, as is your inflation argument.
When people, for example, calculate if the Xmas Battleforces are a good deal - no-one talks about the number of minis. "Oh the IronJawz box is the best value it has 27 minis."
They look at how much it costs to get the minis separately to figure out which gives the better deal. Or same with the Hachette partworks. No-one ever asked "how many minis total come with it?". The only people who regularly talk about the number of minis in the box is GW themselves in marketing. And we generally ignore it as we know it's not really relevant.
I struggle with the idea that this isn't good value, albeit by GW standard (I'll accept the "all GW stuff is overpriced" one - can't argue with that):
You've got a 20% discount on the combined cost of what these minis were last sold for.
These are minis currently unavailable anywhere else, except for at huge markups on the secondary market.
You also get a bunch of MDF terrain and rules for playing a game with just those minis as soon as you've built them.
In terms of absolutely value, comparative to other GW products, it's good. Is it a good starter set? Not sure until we see the rules included. Was the Kill Team 2021 starter set better value? Yes, but then that was a *really good* value set. And it had to compete with Octarius which they clearly produced a few too many of.
The option to buy the whole box didn't include all the collections, it only guaranteed one of each blind box. As mentioned, this set includes a model you couldn't get that way which only came with a companion paintset.
Haighus wrote: The option to buy the whole box didn't include all the collections, it only guaranteed one of each blind box. As mentioned, this set includes a model you couldn't get that way which only came with a companion paintset.
Yeah it's a slightly better deal than I'm making it out to be.
(If I remember right, with the marines you got 8 models in the display box, which included one duplicated one you don't get a duplicate of here. But with the Death Guard you only got 6 models in the box, and the seventh was in the paint set. I sort of assumed those would cancel each other out but realistically gaining the paint set model is more valuable than losing the duplicate marine).
The gymnastics some do go trough to try to justify something is a bit too much.
Why does the number of minis on a given starter box, in this industry, is such feature and everyone is so proud to Flag it on their marketing release? I think this is self explanatory and I refuse to believe people don't understand this concept, which is part of wargaming since the dawn of times.
Quantity: Smaller size minis? Are you telling me 10 Ork Kommandos are small? Yes the Guard was smaller and so was the extra goblin and Squig. So you had 10x Large Ork minis and 12xregular infantry. Now you have 14 Large infantry, thats it... you still have something like 8 regular sized minis missing and no, theres no more plastic in 1 primaris than 2 regular minis with the options. Let's also not forget Orks, for example, had 2 different built options on previous team so you could have 2 boxes and potentially build a different flavour. PMs only have head swap, no optional load out and not sure about Marines.
I could carry on but it's clear the quantity of minis is less now. It's not scarabs vs Titans man.
Rarity: So because these were rare a couple years ago it justifies the price on a starter set aimed at errrr starters? Thats of absolutly no value to a new starter.
Rules: not tangible at all or quantifiable.
Terrain: Previously Chunky few pieces of plastic and barricades VS Prepainted MDF? No comparison in quality here.
From a gaming point of view they are both the same value, they let you start a new edition of X game and probably give you the same bang for your buck.
From a hobby point of view you have substantially less hours of enjoyment painting 14 minis as opposed to 22, because they have the same level of quality/detail and less load out options. Heck you could divide the 10 man full teams by 2x5s and involve more peeps painting.
You can say it's simpler for starters, easier minis, prepainted MDF. And that can be a bit subjective to determine the real value but its a legit debate. Not understanding why difference in the quantity of equally nice minis per box does determines the value, is borderline fishing for weird arguments.
Either way have fun if you like buy it and share it more power to you.
Like I say, you can question the value compared to the last starter set, that was really good value for GW I agree. But that was three years ago. This one is cheaper in real terms, and has a bit less stuff. But compared to what else is available from GW- I suspect you won't find 7 marines and 7 death guard marines for anywhere near that price anywhere else. Which I why I think it's silly to call it bad value. But you're stuck in 2021 so I get it.
deano2099 wrote: Like I say, you can question the value compared to the last starter set, that was really good value for GW I agree. But that was three years ago. This one is cheaper in real terms, and has a bit less stuff. But compared to what else is available from GW- I suspect you won't find 7 marines and 7 death guard marines for anywhere near that price anywhere else. Which I why I think it's silly to call it bad value. But you're stuck in 2021 so I get it.
I think you fail to understand that the value of KT starter set can only be established by its quantifiable/tangible parts and by comparison with the exact KT Starter set that preceded it. After all they have the exact same product targets an one replaces the other. The value is established to be less than previous you seem to confirm that, but since you think that it's better because GW prices in a few years keep going up and up then so be it. Rest assured following your line of thought any deal today is worse than whats coming in future XD... regardless of its tangible parts.
Thats why some say "no deal" and yes we complain about the Christmas box sets being so thin or the fact that PMs 7xman set costed the same as 10xmen similar box sets etc... people compare every single minute every new "deal"... Theres a reason people go wild for kickstarters "deals" that offer loads of minis, theres a simple nature in every avid consumer that more just means, simply more.
But go ahead simply compare it with individual boxes that are not "deals" or "starters"... even better, compare it with ridiculous speculative prices that the rare blind sets were. Now thats a great deal.
What's more important than your or my idea of great value, is that this is not aimed at us and slowly GW is introducing less quantity and in this case less quality to the newcomers. They are training their future client expectations to be really low and quite expensive. This brings back to an interesting comment in this thread before, flagging how "brand" standards are being diluted.
But let's just leave the thread continue with other Dakkaites that want to enjoy this box and review it etc.
I think you fail to understand that the value of KT starter set can only be established by its quantifiable/tangible parts and by comparison with the exact KT Starter set that preceded it. After all they have the exact same product targets an one replaces the other.
Right. But you agreed that in terms of the game itself, it's unquantifiable or the exact same value. And your entire argument was it was worth less in hobby time because of the amount of plastic. So I don't understand why the only valid comparison to you is the starter set for the previous edition of the game? And not other boxes of plastic. Or boxes of the same plastic when last released.
The value is established to be less than previous you seem to confirm that, but since you think that it's better because GW prices in a few years keep going up and up then so be it. Rest assured following your line of thought any deal today is worse than whats coming in future XD... regardless of its tangible parts.
Not GW price increases. Actual inflation in the UK. Everything has gone up by that amount on average. Doesn't mean the deals in the future will always be better, sometimes things go up above inflation (GW products usually do). But yeah if comparing with something that came out in the past, I'll always compare costs in real terms, not absolute terms. Especially if there has been significant inflation in that time.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrookM wrote: Yes, can we just move on or take this discussion to a dedicated topic of its own? Cheers!
Memnoch wrote: Im tempted to pick up the Kill Team starter but it will probably be 3 editions behind by the time I get to play it.
Do the Marines come with alternative heads?
Assuming they are the same sprues as the blind box versions, both imperial and death guard marines have the option of helmets or bare heads for each figure.
Perhaps not the Death guard sorcerer.
Memnoch wrote: Im tempted to pick up the Kill Team starter but it will probably be 3 editions behind by the time I get to play it.
Do the Marines come with alternative heads?
Assuming they are the same sprues as the blind box versions, both imperial and death guard marines have the option of helmets or bare heads for each figure.
Perhaps not the Death guard sorcerer.
Fair question, but my plan is to build the SM half with Mk VII, Devastator and beaky helmets from my Blood Angels bits box, then paint the squad up as Flesh Tearers, for a post-Devastation of Baal Kill Team.
For the Plague Marine half, I’ll just gross out on contrast paints and have some fun. Then use the set to draw my non- Warhammer friends into rolling some dice and pushing some models around.
I am really tempted to get the new starter so I could make the meme "Bad Dragon" chapter minis and just sell the nurgle marines. Would save some € for not having to buy phobos team and get more tokens.
So I don't know if this already dropped, but it was new to me:
The MDF terrain is not printed itself, it has a high-gloss print glued on top of the MDF.
This makes it even worse imo, not on par with other pre-coloured MDF on the market or pushing into the market like the Trolltrader KS.
I havent commented on the starter earlier, but kind of feel it misses the mark. Now that KT24 is effectively "free" in the sense that you have all the team rules and core rules for free, plus you have the app, why would anyone even bother with the starter? Wouldn't you be better off just buying a bespoke team kit and you're off to the races?
I see this as just GW offering folks the opportunity to stock up on limited run models on the low-low (cutting off scalpers in the process). That terrain could easily be DIYed in an afternoon from a bunch of empty cereal boxes..
While it is nice that they've embraced soop rules, we've not seen anything interesting on that front between a launch box, two new teams and a starter set. If its a sign of things to come - or lack thereof - then I'd much rather they release a new 40K Quest game instead.
tauist wrote: I havent commented on the starter earlier, but kind of feel it misses the mark. Now that KT24 is effectively "free" in the sense that you have all the team rules and core rules for free, plus you have the app, why would anyone even bother with the starter? Wouldn't you be better off just buying a bespoke team kit and you're off to the races?
Except you're missing terrain and a team to play against. If you already have both those or just play at clubs then you're not the audience. But it's still 90% of games get played at home or something isn't it?
tauist wrote: I havent commented on the starter earlier, but kind of feel it misses the mark. Now that KT24 is effectively "free" in the sense that you have all the team rules and core rules for free, plus you have the app, why would anyone even bother with the starter? Wouldn't you be better off just buying a bespoke team kit and you're off to the races?
Except you're missing terrain and a team to play against. If you already have both those or just play at clubs then you're not the audience. But it's still 90% of games get played at home or something isn't it?
Yeah exactly. There's going to be an audience that want to play KT against people who won't really want to drop £40 on a personal kill team, let alone assemble & paint it. The goal here is a self-contained set to sell to someone who assembles all the models, learns the rules, then plays a friend or family member with little knowledge of Warhammer.
If you read Dakka Dakka you're not really the target customer for this box.
tauist wrote: I havent commented on the starter earlier, but kind of feel it misses the mark. Now that KT24 is effectively "free" in the sense that you have all the team rules and core rules for free, plus you have the app, why would anyone even bother with the starter? Wouldn't you be better off just buying a bespoke team kit and you're off to the races?
I see this as just GW offering folks the opportunity to stock up on limited run models on the low-low (cutting off scalpers in the process). That terrain could easily be DIYed in an afternoon from a bunch of empty cereal boxes..
If you think a brand new player wants to be cutting up cereal boxes you've truly lost the plot.
It cuts across a few groups. It's obviously a good set for those entirely new that want to start playing as quickly as possible.
It's also a good set for those who just like cool GW models as it gives a way to get the Heroes series that were hard to get at the time.
And for Kill Team players it gives them the custom Death Guard team they've been requesting since the start of the last edition.
The only place it doesn't really do well is for existing 40K players who want to start Kill Team.
Honestly, it looks fine, I don't understand the criticisms:
It's a product for an average board gamer/ family gamer who is not into hobby stuff and wants to play the game not to spend a lot of time cutting cereal boxes or painting walls or even miniatures (and have the end result look crappy as hell anyway).
It looks like a perfect entry product for such a customer.
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