All right - so I was super excited about getting my new codex. I've been waiting for SW's to be updated to 7th ed to hopefully be viable again. And I have to say that I'm really very pleased that many of the confusing or potentially problematic rules / wargear / psychic powers have been brought into line with the standard rules. At least they seem to be at first glance. However, it also seems like most things have been heavily nerfed. Now granted, some units really needed to be - Grey Hunters were underpriced for what they could do. But in applying the nerf, they've reduced Space Wolves (troops specifically) to be more or less much vanilla space marines. In exchange for that, SW players get
New stuff
1) the privilege of an $81 flying metal box. (stormwolf looks pretty good, but it's still 220 points).
2) Bjorn the Fell-Handed and Murderfang may be viable now. We'll see.
3) Logan Grimnar on a chariot. (srsly? WTF?)
Lots of wargear choice for troops vanished. Like;
- Mark of the Wulfen. This is probably fine, but it costs us versatility and flavor. It also means I've got 5 useless miniatures now.
- Wolf Totem is gone. No more re-rolls in the assault phase, and another 5 of my mini's are no longer wysisyg.
- Grey hunters have to pay 2 pts for CCW's. (DISLIKE). IMHO it should be 1 point but OK.
There's other stuff too. Anyway - Is it just me? Am I crazy to be disappointed, or am I missing something?
The short list of thing I are unhappy about {It will be shorter this way}: MotW Gone: Sucks, but not enough for me hate the Codex.
Wolf Tail Talisman, Wolf Tooth Necklace Gone: Sucks, but not enough for me hate the Codex. I look at it as me saving points in the long run.
Canis: Not getting a ++ Save. I think that is now off set by Wolf Claws getting S+1, and Rending.
...that is about it for me
I would also like to know: >Why everyone thinks just because MotW is gone they have useless models. Was there something added to the Codex that told us all we cant use them any more? Is there a reason they cant just be used for really neat models or your Wolf Guard Pack Leader?
>The same goes for the loss of the Wolf Standard. I really liked the old one, but the new one is Good. All of those others carrying one make great candidates for Wolf Guard Pack Leaders, just add bling if they did not have that already.
I'm not at all disappointed. We got cost drops on anything that needed it, the new units are very cool, the changes to GH are neither unexpected nor unwarranted, and to say they've been reduced to 'just' tactical marines is not true at all.
The codex seems to be balanced internally and externally, it fixes a lot of issues and doesn't change how the army plays. what more can you ask?
Paradigm wrote: I'm not at all disappointed. We got cost drops on anything that needed it, the new units are very cool, the changes to GH are neither unexpected nor unwarranted, and to say they've been reduced to 'just' tactical marines is not true at all.
The codex seems to be balanced internally and externally, it fixes a lot of issues and doesn't change how the army plays. what more can you ask?
Paradigm wrote: I'm not at all disappointed. We got cost drops on anything that needed it, the new units are very cool, the changes to GH are neither unexpected nor unwarranted, and to say they've been reduced to 'just' tactical marines is not true at all.
The codex seems to be balanced internally and externally, it fixes a lot of issues and doesn't change how the army plays. what more can you ask?
It's mandatory for people to moan about there new codex remember
The only ones I see no complaints about are the horus Hersey ones by FW
Paradigm wrote: I'm not at all disappointed. We got cost drops on anything that needed it, the new units are very cool, the changes to GH are neither unexpected nor unwarranted, and to say they've been reduced to 'just' tactical marines is not true at all.
The codex seems to be balanced internally and externally, it fixes a lot of issues and doesn't change how the army plays. what more can you ask?
Well said.
Plus, we are going to see SW allies for many imperial armies, because who doesn't want empty drop pods for their friends?
Paradigm wrote: I'm not at all disappointed. We got cost drops on anything that needed it, the new units are very cool, the changes to GH are neither unexpected nor unwarranted, and to say they've been reduced to 'just' tactical marines is not true at all.
The codex seems to be balanced internally and externally, it fixes a lot of issues and doesn't change how the army plays. what more can you ask?
Agreed. Unfortunately, my FLGS doesn't have the codex in stock, so I'll probably have to wait another week.
Mmmm... the way to tell if people are upset with a new Codex or not is to see how many people are selling their armies. Sales on Ebay and swaps in the swap shop go up when there's a bad release.
Come on dont complain about models you cannot use, i lost marbo and the model works fine as a veteran sergeant, just be happy you lost wargear and rules, not special characters.
Not a SW player, but I am interested in people's reactions to:
Murder* (fluff aside - is it a good unit? Worth it's points? Etc.)
The magic Grimbus (Again, goofy model aside, how well does it work in the game?)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
The Home Nuggeteer wrote: Come on dont complain about models you cannot use, i lost marbo and the model works fine as a veteran sergeant, just be happy you lost wargear and rules, not special characters.
And this. Stay strong man, we'll get the Catachan supplement eventually.
Maybe.
Murderfang: I love the model, though he is getting a different "Head" and the rules look good. He is sort of a Lone Wolf in Dreadnaught Armor and I love Lone Wolves.
Logan and his Long Boat: I Love it, it combines so many Viking things together {Long Boat & Chariots}
The 'nid codex pissed me off because it was a pile of crap. Though they did add some units I liked, so that was cool.
The IG codex pissed me off mainly because it felt like a sidestep, adding some things and taking away others. Unfortunately it didn't add anything I liked and took away stuff I did (added Wyvern, yawn, a new type of Ogryn, yawn, and the Taurox, eww).
The SW codex I'm mostly indifferent. It definitely has better balance, but the old codex was pretty unbalanced so I would have been unhappy if they didn't fix it a bit. It removed some of the flavour but then added in flavour in other spots (assuming you like the flavour, I'm mostly indifferent). It didn't remove tons of things like the IG codex did, only a couple of things I'm mostly indifferent to. It added a bunch of units I either dislike or am indifferent to (Murderfang, flying shipping containers, Santa Claws).
So yeah, not disappointed, but also not really inspired. Certainly not pissed off like I was with the nid and IG codices.
If I'm disappointed it's mainly because I wanted them to reduce the comical wolfiness and increase the tough viking angle more, but that's just a matter of opinion, I fully expected them to go insane comical and that's (unfortunately for me) exactly what they did.
liquidjoshi wrote: Not a SW player, but I am interested in people's reactions to:
Murder* (fluff aside - is it a good unit? Worth it's points? Etc.)
The magic Grimbus (Again, goofy model aside, how well does it work in the game?)
I think Murderfang looks good on paper, for 170 points with a pod he could be a neat enough Ironclad equivalent, but specialising in anti infantry rather than AT (he can get an obscene number of attacks). I don't get the issue with his fluff either.
I may grabLogan further down the line just because the model looks great, I haven't given it much thought in game terms though. I don't like the trend of making characters LOW though.
I'd call my reaction "underwhelmed". The new format is wretched. The editing is as poor as usual.
The loss of a purchasable Eternal Warrior turns our beat stick HQs into JV scrubs like Chaos Lords.
On the other hand, Ulrik is going to be godly as a support character, as will Njal. Our fire support dreadnoughts got a little bit cheaper. Our Wolf Guard Terminators got a little cheaper. Long Fangs with rocket launchers got more expensive but lascannons got cheaper. Vindicators (which were never good for a short ranged army) got more expensive while Predators got a lot cheaper. Wolf Scouts became a total waste of a slot, but we were going to fill that slot with Wolf Guard and dreadnoughts anyway.
Oh, and who likes filling their army with Lone Wolves? I know I'll be bringing 2 or 3 with just a power sword to lurk around amidst the Lascannoneers as counter-assault support units.
It's a book of gains and losses, that just happens to be extremely poorly laid out and edited, and really, really shiny. It's not AM, but it's also not Tyranids.
Yes "Logan Claws" is going to change one of my favorite list, mostly because with the price drop I will find it hard to keep my 15-13 list at 13 models. [!,500 points, 13 models], but with "Logan Claws" as 320 points it might be doable.
DaddyWarcrimes wrote: I'd call my reaction "underwhelmed". The new format is wretched. The editing is as poor as usual.
The loss of a purchasable Eternal Warrior turns our beat stick HQs into JV scrubs like Chaos Lords.
On the other hand, Ulrik is going to be godly as a support character, as will Njal. Our fire support dreadnoughts got a little bit cheaper. Our Wolf Guard Terminators got a little cheaper. Long Fangs with rocket launchers got more expensive but lascannons got cheaper. Vindicators (which were never good for a short ranged army) got more expensive while Predators got a lot cheaper. Wolf Scouts became a total waste of a slot, but we were going to fill that slot with Wolf Guard and dreadnoughts anyway.
Oh, and who likes filling their army with Lone Wolves? I know I'll be bringing 2 or 3 with just a power sword to lurk around amidst the Lascannoneers as counter-assault support units.
It's a book of gains and losses, that just happens to be extremely poorly laid out and edited, and really, really shiny. It's not AM, but it's also not Tyranids.
Disapointments:
Losing wolf standard, grey hunters have lost an edge in combat that they had before, they can still get the extra attacks at a price, but losing the once off re-rolls nerfs them alot and probably doesn't warrant the 2 point close combat weapon tax.
Terminators have lost some weapon options. Namely replacing storm bolter with storm shield, this invalidates some of my terminator models that have storm shield and axe/sword rather than hammer.
(I feel this is making them to in line with codex marines with SS/hammer and twin claw profiles)
No mixed armour wolf guard. Namely losing 2 heavy flamer + 6 combi flamer pod.
Wolf guard battle leaders now cost more than before.
It used to be 18 points + 5 for combi weapon. Now it costs 12-14 points + 10(for 1 leadership and 1 attack) and another 10 for combi-weapon, that equals 23 compared to 32-34 points, so a 30% increase in cost
Terminators were 33 points for a stock termi, now that is 12-14 +10+15 = 37-39 points. Not as bad as power armour leaders, but you lose the heavy weapon options.
Njal lost his storm ability and knowledge of all spells (he did get cheaper though)
Chooser, Mark of the wulfen, wolf tooth necklace and wolf tail talisman gone.
A lot of the deletions/changes have reduced the uniqueness of the space wolf codex IMHO.
Likes:
Some units got cheaper (blood claw pack now 180 instead of 225 )
relics added
unique spells kept (although many are worse than before)
New dreadnaught options
New flyer options
More pod options
In summary theres not much to make the codex stand out really, apart from the application of brute force. A lot of the uniqueness is gone, whether for balance or to please the masses is yet to be determined.
Grugknuckle wrote: All right - so I was super excited about getting my new codex. I've been waiting for SW's to be updated to 7th ed to hopefully be viable again. And I have to say that I'm really very pleased that many of the confusing or potentially problematic rules / wargear / psychic powers have been brought into line with the standard rules. At least they seem to be at first glance. However, it also seems like most things have been heavily nerfed. Now granted, some units really needed to be - Grey Hunters were underpriced for what they could do. But in applying the nerf, they've reduced Space Wolves (troops specifically) to be more or less much vanilla space marines. In exchange for that, SW players get
New stuff
1) the privilege of an $81 flying metal box. (stormwolf looks pretty good, but it's still 220 points).
2) Bjorn the Fell-Handed and Murderfang may be viable now. We'll see.
3) Logan Grimnar on a chariot. (srsly? WTF?)
Lots of wargear choice for troops vanished. Like;
- Mark of the Wulfen. This is probably fine, but it costs us versatility and flavor. It also means I've got 5 useless miniatures now.
- Wolf Totem is gone. No more re-rolls in the assault phase, and another 5 of my mini's are no longer wysisyg.
- Grey hunters have to pay 2 pts for CCW's. (DISLIKE). IMHO it should be 1 point but OK.
There's other stuff too. Anyway - Is it just me? Am I crazy to be disappointed, or am I missing something?
DISCUSS
It would seem that the Space Wolves got more new stuff then they lost. I wouldn't call most of the adjustments outright nerfs except for a few things. Jaws needed nerfing, and mixed armor is a nightmare in 7th edition, so I'm actually glad that can't happen in the Space Wolves codex anymore. The SW didn't lose any units/models, but gained more then a couple: Storm<noun> flyer, new Dreadnaughts and probably the best Dreadnaughts in the game, new Wolf Guard entries split out of the one entry making it much more clearer, another Thunderwolf character, and of course the unholy abomination of Logan Girmnar on a chariot pulled by wolves. I have no idea where that came from, or who in their right mind at GW Game Design thought it was fluffy or would fit in with the rest of the Space Wolves. Why not have him on a Thunderwolf for crying out loud? There are so many things wrong with that model... but you cannot deny it's effectiveness on the battlefield.
A few other things that jumped out at me:
1. Drop Pods as a separate fast attack choice in addition to a dedicated transport choice.
2. The reduction in cost of Thunderwolf Cavalry
3. The best Dreadnaught in the game- a Venerable Dread with a 3++!
I don't get all the hate for the Logan chariot. It certainly fits the fluff and feel of the Space Wolves in every way. A viking longboat pulled by wolves, and yet somehow some people feel it doesn't fit in an army based on vikings, is very hero centric, and is loaded with wolves.
Its rules are pretty powerful. Extremely durable and grants 4 extra rending attacks and allows an extra pile in move. I think this unit gives a good indication of RAI for the whole chariot/rider with invulnerable save wargear issue since the chariot clearly states it has its own invulnerable save (this wouldn't be necessary if the chariot can use the rider's wargear).
ClassicCarraway wrote: I don't get all the hate for the Logan chariot. It certainly fits the fluff and feel of the Space Wolves in every way. A viking longboat pulled by wolves, and yet somehow some people feel it doesn't fit in an army based on vikings, is very hero centric, and is loaded with wolves.
Its rules are pretty powerful. Extremely durable and grants 4 extra rending attacks and allows an extra pile in move. I think this unit gives a good indication of RAI for the whole chariot/rider with invulnerable save wargear issue since the chariot clearly states it has its own invulnerable save (this wouldn't be necessary if the chariot can use the rider's wargear).
I think you're the only person who has ever claimed that Logan Sleigh fits the fluff.
The SW player in our group is excited, his army got better. Which is terrible news for me.
I don't see much to be crabby about, I keep hearing "lost flavor". What does that mean?
Your GH still get their CCW, they have to pay for it like everyone else. (and if you don't take it, its a price drop on the unit)
Blood claws got a silly price drop and their rules now make them more useful. (they needed both)
TWC got better points wise, so did Lukas the trickster, sorry his special power isn't absurd anymore, still pretty damn good.
Your new flyer looks like a flying cargo container and hits like a ton of bricks. (NM you can put 15 Blood Claws in it with some IC and assault out of it, what's that Gorkanaut? No you aren't an assault vehicle....sit down)
Your Psychic powers are now in line with 7th edition psychic powers, OH WAIT, you kept access to biomancy and divination? Grats, the least psychic chapter is now 7x more psychic than an ork.
Bottom line: Its not a bad book. You can do worse. There were few fundamental changes that we didn't see coming based on how 7th edition is working. This book and the ork book both took the exact same trajectory, though this one came out ahead a bit because the base book already had some decent power in it.
We keep judging books based on the OP releases, but the truth is, the last few books have all been decent, without handing over powered BS to people. Compare this book to Nids, AM, Orks......they all follow a similar pattern, there isn't just one power build in each book anymore, and that encourages you to take new stuff. Hell, I haven't seen two ork armies that even look close to eachother yet in 7th.
SW were always a like them because of the fluff army, for awhile in 5th they had some stupid OP stuff and they were popular, then the meta switched to "Buffhammer 40k" and its all about how many rerolls you can get, and they fell away because they didn't have access to the cool kids powers. Now they have access to cool kids powers and a ton of decent options, but nothing that screams (at least not yet) OMG EVERYONE WE ARE GUNNA WIN THE TOURNEY NAO! I'd say that ought to be the goal of a codex.
Everything I've seen makes what I liked about the Wolves codex bad or worse. The special characters all got taken down another notch and made derpy. Grey Hunters are now just Grey Marines (BORING) and I get the special privilege to buy a unique flyer that really doesn't do much more than a Storm Raven. It all feels more "extreme vanilla" version of Wolves and selling you the flavor back later in supplement, the story of all the books since December to Remember 2013.
Direction of the game is still garbage, long story short. 5th, anyone?
TheKbob wrote: Everything I've seen makes what I liked about the Wolves codex bad or worse. The special characters all got taken down another notch and made derpy. Grey Hunters are now just Grey Marines (BORING) and I get the special privilege to buy a unique flyer that really doesn't do much more than a Storm Raven. It all feels more "extreme vanilla" version of Wolves and selling you the flavor back later in supplement, the story of all the books since December to Remember 2013.
Direction of the game is still garbage, long story short. 5th, anyone?
You're talking out of your posterior from what I can see.
I can't comment on the special characters but Grey Hunters can easily still be functionally the same as they can get double specials and CCWs+BPs, so your comment on "grey marines" is tripe.
The flyers have a new, insane and flavourful Helfrost weapon each that can remove high wound/EW models instantly, put out templates and do AT, I can't even think of another flyer that covers the first point.
Your last comment on flavour might have been justified with another Codex but here its just lacking in merit.
ClassicCarraway wrote: I don't get all the hate for the Logan chariot. It certainly fits the fluff and feel of the Space Wolves in every way. A viking longboat pulled by wolves, and yet somehow some people feel it doesn't fit in an army based on vikings, is very hero centric, and is loaded with wolves.
Its rules are pretty powerful. Extremely durable and grants 4 extra rending attacks and allows an extra pile in move. I think this unit gives a good indication of RAI for the whole chariot/rider with invulnerable save wargear issue since the chariot clearly states it has its own invulnerable save (this wouldn't be necessary if the chariot can use the rider's wargear).
I think you're the only person who has ever claimed that Logan Sleigh fits the fluff.
Not at all. I said much the same in N&R:
It fits the theme of the SW perfectly. Wolves are all about the deeds of their heroes, and what better way to emphasise that than a Chapter Master's personal combat chariot? It gets him to the thick of the fray, helps him rack up a kill tally while there, and just as importantly allows everyone else to see him taking heads, inspiring friend and terrifying foe.
ClassicCarraway wrote: I don't get all the hate for the Logan chariot. It certainly fits the fluff and feel of the Space Wolves in every way. A viking longboat pulled by wolves, and yet somehow some people feel it doesn't fit in an army based on vikings, is very hero centric, and is loaded with wolves.
Its rules are pretty powerful. Extremely durable and grants 4 extra rending attacks and allows an extra pile in move. I think this unit gives a good indication of RAI for the whole chariot/rider with invulnerable save wargear issue since the chariot clearly states it has its own invulnerable save (this wouldn't be necessary if the chariot can use the rider's wargear).
I think you're the only person who has ever claimed that Logan Sleigh fits the fluff.
Not at all. I said much the same in N&R:
It fits the theme of the SW perfectly. Wolves are all about the deeds of their heroes, and what better way to emphasise that than a Chapter Master's personal combat chariot? It gets him to the thick of the fray, helps him rack up a kill tally while there, and just as importantly allows everyone else to see him taking heads, inspiring friend and terrifying foe.
I guess the Viking Longboat idea makes sense, but the model doesn't look like a longboat. It looks like a toddler's little round toy boat.
I have mixed feelings about it. I can finally use Ulrik, a model I've had since 3rd and always wanted to use but could never find a reason to. Our rune priest got cheaper and got access to the olf SW powers without losing the old ones. However, a lot of stuff got removed or nerfed. The old psychic powers aren't what they used to be. I HATE that sagas are now warlord traits that you have to roll for. Did we really need more things that used to be a strategy to build a list around changed to a random D6 table? 9th edition is going to be both players putting their models on the table and making pew pew sounds, then having a roll off to see who won.
Grey hunters have to pay 2 pts for CCW's. (DISLIKE). IMHO it should be 1 point but OK.
CSMs pay 2 points for their CCWs. as such the 2 point price seems right to me, agree or disagree with it, GW's actually being CONSISTANT for once
The problem is people expecting an OP codex like Eldar. When they get a balanced one they complain. It doesn't make sense to me.
I mean, in all fairness, if one thing is OP and everything else, even the new stuff, is nowhere near as OP, there's going to be complaining. But the fact that the codex is balanced is a good thing.
GW is not consistent with their points values. Points values being equal does not make the item equal worth. A 15 pt plasma gun on a guardsmen is of less value than one on a space marine. A CCW to a Chaos Marine means different to than then a SM, so on, so forth.
Having each chapter's marines be the same, boring, bland 14 ppm Marine and then unequally giving them special rules doesn't hold up well. Let alone the discussion of the T4, 3+ save body being arguable worthless in 6E and 7E than previous editions where medium strength, high volume shooting is the name of the game. When most weapons of S6-S7 wound you on 2s regardless of T3 or T4, it's usually better to go for more bodies (or greater wounds per point) than less bodies, but higher save.
But that would mean GW applies any rational game design. Which they don't.
I say try playing games with the things you think are bad and see what happens. I was convinced that Mephiston is terrible now without a bunch of points added (which I am not willing to do) and was going to try something else. I was convinced to try him and we played 2 maelstrom games. He is better now than he used to be because your opponent will be coming towards you all the time. The game isn't about killing so much as it is about what objectives you can claim each turn. It may seem disappointing now but I think it's because the game has gone away from the old strategies and tournament mindset to what it is now.
If you are only wanting to play under the old way (kill points, set end of game objectives, and tourney friendly min/max lists) then this will certainly be disappointing. I for one wish my friend hadn't sold his Wolves last year so we could try this new book out.
Paradigm wrote: I'm not at all disappointed. We got cost drops on anything that needed it, the new units are very cool, the changes to GH are neither unexpected nor unwarranted, and to say they've been reduced to 'just' tactical marines is not true at all.
The codex seems to be balanced internally and externally, it fixes a lot of issues and doesn't change how the army plays. what more can you ask?
This. The list of things that disappoint me are very short. Njal got nerfed hard and Ragnar's not much better, Wolf Scouts got a WTF nerf and the lost wargear makes me sad. However, basically everything else about the book is amazing, including little things like getting rid of the worst aspects of the fluff on characters like Canis Wolfborn (haven't checked to see if this is a trend throughout though).
Oh and is it just me, or is there a MAJOR typo on the Wolf Priest, restricting Oath of War to just him? That needs to be FAQ'd immediately.
Thorgrim Bloodcrow wrote: I love it, the second I glanced through it all kinds of ideas started sparking up in my mind.
Before, I never cared for the bikes, jump packs, Iron Priests and Blood Claws and now I want to field units of all of them.
This. SOOOOO this! The book has opened up a ton of options, and it makes me VERY happy as someone who was sick of how you were shoehorned into writing a SW list way back in 5th ed!
Used an 1850 list today against SM allied with guard. I took rune priest TDA, Ulrik, 3 GH squads with 2 meltas, rhino, pod, LRC, 6 WGTDA, missile long fangs and a stormfang. He took tac squads, melta bikers, dev centurions, predators, las/missile dread, 2 taurox, some lascannon squads and a vendetta. We played purge the alien. He had 1 hull point left on the vendetta, everything else was dead, wrecked or blown up. I still had 15 GH, ulrik, rune priest, 1 term, 4 long fangs, LRC and stormfang left at the end of the game. The new psychic powers did really well for me. Ulrik was a monster in CC and made his unit tear through everything it faced. The stormfang killed his centurion squad in 1 turn and then took 2 hull points off the vendetta the next turn. The WG didn't do much but they soaked up 2 rounds of fire from grav cannons which meant those weren't shooting at my advancing GH. I'm not sure how I would've fared against Tau or eldar but I was happy with the way the list performed. The points I saved from my list with the old codex point values gave me a free Ulrik. This week I'm going to try out some of the relics and see if they're worth the points.
Grugknuckle wrote: All right - so I was super excited about getting my new codex. I've been waiting for SW's to be updated to 7th ed to hopefully be viable again. And I have to say that I'm really very pleased that many of the confusing or potentially problematic rules / wargear / psychic powers have been brought into line with the standard rules. At least they seem to be at first glance. However, it also seems like most things have been heavily nerfed. Now granted, some units really needed to be - Grey Hunters were underpriced for what they could do. But in applying the nerf, they've reduced Space Wolves (troops specifically) to be more or less much vanilla space marines. In exchange for that, SW players get
New stuff
1) the privilege of an $81 flying metal box. (stormwolf looks pretty good, but it's still 220 points).
2) Bjorn the Fell-Handed and Murderfang may be viable now. We'll see.
3) Logan Grimnar on a chariot. (srsly? WTF?)
Lots of wargear choice for troops vanished. Like;
- Mark of the Wulfen. This is probably fine, but it costs us versatility and flavor. It also means I've got 5 useless miniatures now.
- Wolf Totem is gone. No more re-rolls in the assault phase, and another 5 of my mini's are no longer wysisyg.
- Grey hunters have to pay 2 pts for CCW's. (DISLIKE). IMHO it should be 1 point but OK.
There's other stuff too. Anyway - Is it just me? Am I crazy to be disappointed, or am I missing something?
DISCUSS
Ultimately, looking over the book, most of what was lost was stuff that could have been expected to have been lost, we're talking individual wargear options that existed as they did for only one codex iteration, the exact type of thing that gets switched up every time a book gets redone.
Mostly, it looks like they brought the overly-cheap units in line with their equivalents, cleaned up the Wolf Guard unit splitting mess by just making them unit upgrades as they should have been all along, and are heavily emphasizing the actually truly unique SW stuff (TWC's, new flyers, characters, etc) rather than the variations between otherwise similar standard SM units (e.g. Tacs vs Grey Hunters). While I'm not a huge fan of many of the SW unique units (e.g. TWC's are amongst the most absurd concepts in the game to me, the new flyer looks atrocious, etc), this route makes more sense to my mind to emphasize the differences against other SM armies rather than trying to make otherwise equivalent units slightly different just for differences sake.
Ultimately this book has a lot of character (if you're into SW's silly take on vikings) and a lot of strengths and few weaknesses, I can't find a single objectively bad unit the like of say IG Rough Riders or something that got unnecessarily mega-nerfed like the Hydra or that's just way too awkward to be consistently effective like say Scions/Stormtroopers. Most of the "nerfs" were largely to bring stuff in line with their equivalents in other books.
It's definitely an army that can be very capable on a table, but won't be the "Marines+1" that the previous book was for so long. It's a very balanced book overall that's got a lot of capabilities and tricks, but won't function the same way the old book did. I think you'll see a lot of TWC-heavy armies (they got *real* cheap for T5 W2 12" move models with an absurd number of rending attacks) just as you see many SM biker armies for some of the same reasons (lots of mobility and damage mitigation), along with lots of characters and flyers, but the Grey Hunter+Longfang "Battle Company+1" armies we saw back in 5th will be less of a thing.
TheKbob wrote: GW is not consistent with their points values. Points values being equal does not make the item equal worth. A 15 pt plasma gun on a guardsmen is of less value than one on a space marine. A CCW to a Chaos Marine means different to than then a SM, so on, so forth.
In this case however, the CCW's being 2pts for GH's and being 2pts for CSM's is pretty consistent. You're talking about a whole other level of meta-game design here, while the CCW in question is on units with identical statlines and wargear serving the same battlefield purpose.
If anything, the GH's are getting it cheap, the CCW is even more worth it with Counterattack than on the CSM's.
Having each chapter's marines be the same, boring, bland 14 ppm Marine and then unequally giving them special rules doesn't hold up well.
Yet that's exactly what GW has largely always done to differentiate marines, either give them X or Y special rule instead of Z special or B wargear instead of A wargear or C wargear.
Let alone the discussion of the T4, 3+ save body being arguable worthless in 6E and 7E than previous editions where medium strength, high volume shooting is the name of the game. When most weapons of S6-S7 wound you on 2s regardless of T3 or T4, it's usually better to go for more bodies (or greater wounds per point) than less bodies, but higher save.
Sorry, you're not going to get 9pt space marines...T4 is still very much worth it over T3. The difference between T3 and T4 is hugely felt with infantry arms and CC, which are still big components to this game, and those S6/7 weapons will ID multi-wound T3 models but not T4 units. That T difference is a huge reason why you don't see many Tempestus Scion armies roaming about.
nosferatu1001 wrote: Too fast - there wasn't a huge amount of strategy in the old sagas anyway. Buy beat stick lord, buy EW saga. Done.
Andillus - isn't oath of war the preferred enemy granting rule? If so check out the rules on PE - only one model needs it.
I dunno, my character/monster fighting Wolf Lord is pretty much done now because of the loss of EW access... time to turn him into a heavy infantry killer I guess. :/
And I didn't realize that preferred enemy confers to the whole unit if one has it, that's good to know! I was worried that I was going to have to wait for a proper FAQ... Hopefully 8th ed doesn't screw this up and leave us with useless Wolf Priests!
Rules mean nothing to me at this point but I'm hugly disappointed because it was a chance for GW to take what Dan Abnett did to the wolves when he presented them as the Vulka Fenryka.
They COULD have made them vikings with a deep and rich culture.
They COULD have made them quite serious with that little bit of tongue in cheek humour showing in places.
They COULD have brought in the darker implications of the fault in their Geenseed.
Insitead we got MURDERFANG and his MURDERCLAWS.
Basically the whole thing felt like it could have been done seriously and been amazing, instead we got more of the cartoony 12 year old 'vikings' and even more heavily reliant of wolf iconography.
jonolikespie wrote: Rules mean nothing to me at this point but I'm hugly disappointed because it was a chance for GW to take what Dan Abnett did to the wolves when he presented them as the Vulka Fenryka.
They COULD have made them vikings with a deep and rich culture.
They COULD have made them quite serious with that little bit of tongue in cheek humour showing in places.
They COULD have brought in the darker implications of the fault in their Geenseed.
Insitead we got MURDERFANG and his MURDERCLAWS.
Basically the whole thing felt like it could have been done seriously and been amazing, instead we got more of the cartoony 12 year old 'vikings' and even more heavily reliant of wolf iconography.
jonolikespie wrote: Basically the whole thing felt like it could have been done seriously and been amazing, instead we got more of the cartoony 12 year old 'vikings' and even more heavily reliant of wolf iconography.
Honestly I wonder if they took out wolf standards, talismans, necklaces, wulfen, etc because they were trying to tone down the "wolf" aspect. IMHO, they seem to actually have cut back on the wolf aspect somewhat, although that's not to say that they're still not a silly army.
jonolikespie wrote: Basically the whole thing felt like it could have been done seriously and been amazing, instead we got more of the cartoony 12 year old 'vikings' and even more heavily reliant of wolf iconography.
Honestly I wonder if they took out wolf standards, talismans, necklaces, wulfen, etc because they were trying to tone down the "wolf" aspect. IMHO, they seem to actually have cut back on the wolf aspect somewhat, although that's not to say that they're still not a silly army.
Space Wolves had the opportunity for greatness with so many Norse myths to draw from, but GW ruined them. Wolves with Wolf Claws riding Wolf Chariots pulled by Wolves.
jonolikespie wrote: Basically the whole thing felt like it could have been done seriously and been amazing, instead we got more of the cartoony 12 year old 'vikings' and even more heavily reliant of wolf iconography.
Honestly I wonder if they took out wolf standards, talismans, necklaces, wulfen, etc because they were trying to tone down the "wolf" aspect. IMHO, they seem to actually have cut back on the wolf aspect somewhat, although that's not to say that they're still not a silly army.
Unfortunately it doesn't appear so, the Wolf Standard still exists, Wolf claws are still a thing, Lukas is still the "Jackalwolf", and they just gave introduced the Harald Deathwolf (as a new unit not just background), the Stormwolf, the Wulfenstone, and the Fangsword of the Icewolf as well. Although interestingly the Lord of the Wolfkin is no longer Canis Wolfborn but Harald Deathwolf.
Wolf.
On a similar topic, the naming conventions and thematic elements as a whole remain atrocious, Murderfacefang with his Murderclaws, Frost blades and frost guns, etc. It's all still there. There's even a sleigh now!
jonolikespie wrote: Rules mean nothing to me at this point but I'm hugly disappointed because it was a chance for GW to take what Dan Abnett did to the wolves when he presented them as the Vulka Fenryka.
They COULD have made them vikings with a deep and rich culture.
They COULD have made them quite serious with that little bit of tongue in cheek humour showing in places.
They COULD have brought in the darker implications of the fault in their Geenseed.
Insitead we got MURDERFANG and his MURDERCLAWS.
Basically the whole thing felt like it could have been done seriously and been amazing, instead we got more of the cartoony 12 year old 'vikings' and even more heavily reliant of wolf iconography.
12 year olds are GW's main client base.
Actually there is no way to know that, they don't do market research.
I would also like to know: >Why everyone thinks just because MotW is gone they have useless models. Was there something added to the Codex that told us all we cant use them any more? Is there a reason they cant just be used for really neat models or your Wolf Guard Pack Leader?
>The same goes for the loss of the Wolf Standard. I really liked the old one, but the new one is Good. All of those others carrying one make great candidates for Wolf Guard Pack Leaders, just add bling if they did not have that already.
Well I'll say this...I modeled all of my grey hunters with chainswords because back when I built them, chainswords were just CCW's and every grey hunter had one. NOW I have to pay 2 points a piece extra just to be WYSIWYG. I'm REALLY unhappy about this.
Same for MOTW. I modeled them to look - well they don't look like a space marine.
Also...It's nice that Long Fangs can have Flakk missiles now, but wow they got expensive.
No wolf totem? That sucks. All of the relics are pretty lame except the wulfen stone - but 40 pts? No thanks.
Not really pleased with the psychic powers being exactly the same only not as good.
Wolf Scouts are even more useless now.
I think skyclaws and bikes got cheaper, but I don't own any.
I think Logan Grimnar's chariot's rules are stupid good. (Never takes penetrating hits, 4+ invulvnerable save AND it does 4 extra S5 attacks in CC. wow.) But I'm just really turned off by ANY chariot in WH40K. Seriously - space marines should ride chariots, it's just comical.
jonolikespie wrote: Rules mean nothing to me at this point but I'm hugly disappointed because it was a chance for GW to take what Dan Abnett did to the wolves when he presented them as the Vulka Fenryka.
They COULD have made them vikings with a deep and rich culture.
They COULD have made them quite serious with that little bit of tongue in cheek humour showing in places.
They COULD have brought in the darker implications of the fault in their Geenseed.
Insitead we got MURDERFANG and his MURDERCLAWS.
Basically the whole thing felt like it could have been done seriously and been amazing, instead we got more of the cartoony 12 year old 'vikings' and even more heavily reliant of wolf iconography.
12 year olds are GW's main client base.
Actually there is no way to know that, they don't do market research.
liquidjoshi wrote: Not a SW player, but I am interested in people's reactions to:
Murder* (fluff aside - is it a good unit? Worth it's points? Etc.)
The magic Grimbus (Again, goofy model aside, how well does it work in the game?)
I think Murderfang looks good on paper, for 170 points with a pod he could be a neat enough Ironclad equivalent, but specialising in anti infantry rather than AT (he can get an obscene number of attacks). I don't get the issue with his fluff either.
I may grabLogan further down the line just because the model looks great, I haven't given it much thought in game terms though. I don't like the trend of making characters LOW though.
I'm going to hold off judging the dreadnoughts. Like you said, they look good on paper BUT dreadnoughts - generally - aren't that good unless you spam them. At most, SW's can take 4 dreadnoughts (3 elite + Bjorn) but then you can't have wolf guard.
I don't think that the codex is bad. I'm just pissed that my models - 50 pro-painted GH's which took me a year and a half to buy, build and paint - and now they've all got chainswords I've got to pay extra points for. I added it up and I can't really field a 10 man GH squad for under 200 points. =(
There's not a snowballs chance that I'm going to build more either.
40KNobz11 wrote: Every single time a new codex comes out people complain. After a few games though everyone seems happy. Same happened with orks
Ork players are happy? BAO results reflect otherwise.
I'm happy with the new Ork codex. Also, BAO uses a very unique mission system that doesn't reflect the overall meta.
BAO is still a pretty good tournament with pretty good players and orks weren't kicking teeth in there. I love my orks, but that codex still hasn't given me anything but a hard fought victory, pulling gak out of my ass on turn 6. The day after the Ork codex dropped, my army wasn't better in any way and I am still trying out different builds, finally getting a core down I like, but my Space Wolf buddy, has owed the codex for 10 minutes and already improved his list just by tweaking things based on new cost and loadouts, that's a big difference between a meh codex and a good codex.
To me that one little difference, makes me feel like this is a pretty decent codex drop. The army didn't get worse, it probably got better. Now, do I expect SW to be kicking teeth in? I think some TWC builds will be nice, but, I've always felt they were a lesser played army just because you have to like the fluff and be willing to paint all those wolf pelts. People will play some games and figure things out, but there certainly isn't anything in the book I see that will make SM players who like tourneys drop their White Scars or Melta Drop pod army or grav centurions for a SW army. Not like in 5th when OPness caused all the bandwagoneers, but I think there is nothing stopping SW from competing. I can't say the same about Orks right now. I want to, and lord knows I will keep on keepin' on, but we are starting a new escalation campaign next week and the SW I am scheduled to fight at 500pts just got better.....I was really hoping he'd get nerfed...not gonna lie.
jonolikespie wrote: Basically the whole thing felt like it could have been done seriously and been amazing, instead we got more of the cartoony 12 year old 'vikings' and even more heavily reliant of wolf iconography.
Honestly I wonder if they took out wolf standards, talismans, necklaces, wulfen, etc because they were trying to tone down the "wolf" aspect. IMHO, they seem to actually have cut back on the wolf aspect somewhat, although that's not to say that they're still not a silly army.
Toned down the wolf aspect? Which is more obnoxious ; dudes wearing wolf pelts, tails and talismans? Or Logan Grimnar riding a chariot pulled by wolves in the 41st millenium?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
TheKbob wrote: Everything I've seen makes what I liked about the Wolves codex bad or worse. The special characters all got taken down another notch and made derpy. Grey Hunters are now just Grey Marines (BORING) and I get the special privilege to buy a unique flyer that really doesn't do much more than a Storm Raven. It all feels more "extreme vanilla" version of Wolves and selling you the flavor back later in supplement, the story of all the books since December to Remember 2013.
Direction of the game is still garbage, long story short. 5th, anyone?
This is exactly the way I feel. Grey Hunters used to be the best troop choice in the game - so we knew they would get nerfed. But they're just space marines with counter attack now, yet cost more. I know people will say, "wait a minute, they're only 14 pts per model now, they used to be 15!" and that's true. However, this is what you used to get....
Old Codex: 10 Grey Hunters (w/ bolter, bolt pistol and CCW)
2 Plasmaguns
MOTW Wolf Totem
185 points
New Codex 10 Grey Hunters (w/ bolter, bolt pistol and CCW)
2 Plasmaguns
190 pts
See what I mean? The new GH's cost more and do less. You could argue that the codex got better because of the new stuff (Stormwolf etc) and that's true - that stuff IS better. But our core troops got hit hard with the nerf stick and THAT means I need to build a whole new army up from scratch to remain competitive. Deep down I knew GW was going to make me buy new models. But now that I've seen it I'm sad. I don't want to drop another $1000.
Jancoran wrote: Hoboy. Didnt take long for these threads to start did it?
If somebody fields that if I ever play again I am going to loose. Why will I loose? I will be going "HO HO HO" throughout out the game, I will forget what to do. I mean, how can I even fantom of hurting good old ST Nick.
Hasn't GW stated multiple times 40k is supposed to be a "Forge the Narrative/Beer and Pretzels Game"?
Having played real "Beer and Pretzels" games, I can tell you that 40k is not a B&P game. It is far too costly and clumsy a ruleset to be laid out in front of a group of gamers with zero knowledge of the rules and play a game in a reasonable time period. That the whole 'Forge the Narrative" line is just a continuation of that "Cinematic" crap people tried to use to justify the poor quality of the 6th Edition rules.
Hasn't GW stated multiple times 40k is supposed to be a "Forge the Narrative/Beer and Pretzels Game"?
Having played real "Beer and Pretzels" games, I can tell you that 40k is not a B&P game. It is far too costly and clumsy a ruleset to be laid out in front of a group of gamers with zero knowledge of the rules and play a game in a reasonable time period. That the whole 'Forge the Narrative" line is just a continuation of that "Cinematic" crap people tried to use to justify the poor quality of the 6th Edition rules.
People on the interwebs just love complaining about everything (I know they have a right to do so), but as for me, I can still have fun playing 40k.
Direction of the game is still garbage, long story short. 5th, anyone?
Hell no. That is why I quit 40K. Just collect now. Don't play because of 5th.
Hasn't GW stated multiple times 40k is supposed to be a "Forge the Narrative/Beer and Pretzels Game"?
GW also claim to be a model company, not a rules company, despite charging double, triple or even quadruple what their competition charge for rules (at least those who do, a few of their competitors done charge anything for rules).
I don't know if GW ever said it themselves, but I've seen it bandied about forums elsewhere. Mostly when 6th was released and the whole 'Forge the Narrative' bs started spreading.
No one is saying you can't or shouldn't have fun playing 40k, but calling it a beer and pretzels game is pretty absurd.
My friends and I were playing some casual games. One of them was drinking a lot of beer and was wasted throughout this one game against another guy. He kept cheating himself and somehow still won.
There were also pretzels involved. I know because I ate them all.
Therefore, everyone who doesn't think 40k should be associated with beer and pretzels needs to reevaluate their outlook on life.
I have had a beer or two while playing but we didn't eat pretzels. We had Nutty Bars and Doritos. Does that mean it is really a beer, Nutty Bars, and Doritos game?
Brotherjanus wrote: I have had a beer or two while playing but we didn't eat pretzels. We had Nutty Bars and Doritos. Does that mean it is really a beer, Nutty Bars, and Doritos game?
Overall, it seems like the last few books are closer in balance to the first few books of 6th edition- Dark Eldar, CSM especially. Those were not major upgrades over the old book like Eldar, Tau, and Daemons were, they were more of "sidesteps" in balance. SM got a bit stronger, Nids a tad weaker than before, and IG, Orks, and now Wolves were more balance passes than revolutionary new codices. It was Eldar, Tau, and Daemons that threw out the curve in 6th.
GK are sounding like they are about to get a balance pass, with nothing new, and Inquisition stuff removed, but otherwise just a few points and wargear adjustments.
Necrons getting fixed will help with the problems they have for the meta. Dark Eldar and Blood Angels are not overpowering right now, so will hopefully be more balance books. Tau the main issue is the pricing on the Riptide and the interceptor upgrade now that MCs cannot be joined by ICs. Bump the former up by 15-20, and remove the latter or increase it to 20 points instead of 5, and most of the issues left with Tau are taken care of.
Eldar and Daemons will take more significant work to balance though.
This is exactly the way I feel. Grey Hunters used to be the best troop choice in the game - so we knew they would get nerfed. But they're just space marines with counter attack now, yet cost more. I know people will say, "wait a minute, they're only 14 pts per model now, they used to be 15!" and that's true. However, this is what you used to get....
Old Codex: 10 Grey Hunters (w/ bolter, bolt pistol and CCW)
2 Plasmaguns
MOTW Wolf Totem
185 points
New Codex 10 Grey Hunters (w/ bolter, bolt pistol and CCW)
2 Plasmaguns
190 pts
See what I mean? The new GH's cost more and do less.
To be fair, while true, they also were under-costed before relative to their equivalents. BP/Bolter/CCW+Counterattack+ATSKNF for 15pts, plus discounted weapons, plus the cheapest sergeant equivalents in the game, who also payed fewer points for their upgrades relative to other Tac equivalent squad leaders.
If anyone didn't see that coming, they weren't looking at the road. When the previous book was released in 2009 it caused much consternation exactly because the GH's were both cheaper and more effective than everyone else's equivalents. Now they're more in line with their equivalents instead of routinely costing 20-30pts less per squad (and often being more effective).
The only difference in actual unit character is that they can't all have a banner (but it's still there) and the MotW isn't there anymore, both optional upgrades and both only existing as-was for one codex iteration (nobody seemed to complain about unit feel/flavor when Counterattack was radically changed with 5th edition). Other than that they have the same statlines, the same special rules, access to the same wargear, and they can take multiple specials now without sacrificing the unit leader.
I don't really see a lot to complain about as far as internal balance is concerned. You can complain it's not as powerful as Tau/Eldar if you want, which is a valid complaint until Tau/Eldar get replaced.
Most my complaints are about the flavour of the chapter. I much prefer the idea of the Vlka Fenryka where the wolfy aspects are spoken of in hushed voices rather than the Space Wolves of Wolfiness who ride their mutated Wolf brothers in to combat, ride Wolf drawn hover chariots and think picking up an insane cursed murdering dreadnought is a good idea.
Got the new Dex and so far really like it.
However my main annoyance was that I was told that WD #27 was to be the source for rules for Murderfang.
But on going through the dex Murderfang is in there with the special dreads....
Btw Anyone else notice that the Necron Dex has dissappared from the GW webstore? Are they next?
Oh and is it just me, or is there a MAJOR typo on the Wolf Priest, restricting Oath of War to just him? That needs to be FAQ'd immediately.
No it doesn't. Preferred Enemy is one of those skills that transfers to the unit. One Wolf Priest with Preferred Enemy means 15 Blood Claws with Preferred Enemy.
Looks to be on par with the rest of the recent books.. They removed a lot of the interesting options, made it bland, reduced fluff.. and added some stupid stuff like empty drop pods.
WTF?? now you can have a unit of 3 thunderwolves with SS and TH for 255, thats mean 15 s10 attacks on the charge, holly molly, and people begin to whine, gosh what they want then? they are a bullet magnet, yes, but you can always send first a unit of 5 swiftclaws with one SS and a melta gun, with one wolfguard with SS and TH to shield your thunder calvary for 170 points, synerge is the word in this codex, gosh people, use the brain firts before to complain, and i am telling you this with only 20 min reading the codex I know, not everything is perfect, it pains me the lose oif the necklace and the sagas, we lose lots of character and personalisation, but overal is a all right codex.
Beside we can spam lonewolfs on tda with TH and SS, picture 3 of these vs a daemon prince, poor horned dude lol
Considering a single round of shooting from a Dire Avengers squad will kill almost two of those TW's on average, that's not as amazing as it sounds for its points.
Toofast wrote: Empty drop pods is stupid? That's one of the best additions in the entire book.
Don't confuse "good options" with incredibly dumb from a space marines perspective. Space Marines don't launch empty drop pods, nor would a space wolf drop pod include anything other than space wolves because they are launched from the SW ship in orbit. That's why it's dumb.
Zakiriel wrote: Got the new Dex and so far really like it.
However my main annoyance was that I was told that WD #27 was to be the source for rules for Murderfang.
But on going through the dex Murderfang is in there with the special dreads....
Btw Anyone else notice that the Necron Dex has dissappared from the GW webstore? Are they next?
The Murderfang rules were in WD as a preview to the codex, like they've been doing with most of their releases lately (ork morkanaut and flash gitz etc)
ClassicCarraway wrote: I don't get all the hate for the Logan chariot. It certainly fits the fluff and feel of the Space Wolves in every way. A viking longboat pulled by wolves, and yet somehow some people feel it doesn't fit in an army based on vikings, is very hero centric, and is loaded with wolves.
Space Wolves are supposed to be Space Marines with a nordic flavor.
Honestly, I want to see this codex in person. Even if they are just "Space Marines +1", which is what most are saying about them, that is huge. C:SM is a great codex with so many ways to use it that I am quite literally aggravated. I play CSM, specifically Khorne CSM. A standard CSM for me has the CCW and MoK. Guess what that is roughly equivalent rules wise (though lacking the lessened, though still amazing ATSKNF), but costs more than your "ultra nerf-hammered GH"? And complaining that your terminators cost 39 points apparently? That is -cheaper- than C:SM in case you forgot. The new murderdread of murder or whatever it's called basically took a giant dump on the Furioso. On top of that you apparently get a 3++ on a dread? Good grief, even if it is oooonly on the front arc, proper positioning just made that one of the worst things to face unless you have ungodly melta/las tier AT firepower. I'm no expert at mathhammer, but I'd wager it'd take a full squad of lascannon havocs/devastators 2-3 turns to finally kill that thing.
Now we get to the "stupid flying wolfbox". That thing is, quite honestly, the most blatant example of why Space Wolves are space marines +1. Its a Stormraven but better. Correct me if i'm wrong, but is it not one of the few non-superheavy weapons in the game that can handle horde infantry, MEQ, TEQ, MC, Light armor, and heavy armor all with the same ease? And you have the nerve to complain about it?? This thing is going to make the rage over the 6e Heldrake seem like a high school sit in. And it is apparently also has the same functionality as a LRC as far as being an assault transport, for less? Even without having read the dex yet, just with the general explanations I've read in this thread alone, I can't figure out how my current army (CSM) will be able to do a single thing to this. TWC were amazing before, and now with a point reduction I'd expect 8/10 list to at least have a 5 strong unit, just as board control units. GH still have the same role they had before: arguably the best MEQ objective holders in the game. It's a good thing their point cost got brought in line. Plus the shenanigans with taking a flamer at no cost, then saying "oh look, a plasma gun that would normally cost 15 points... I guess it's free because Fenris".
Sorry, all of your complaints fall on deaf ears from this direction. Yeah, you didn't get an army of 2++ 10 point terminators all with double grav cannons + TH/LC. GW made a mistake with Eldar, and they are silently admitting it. Even the much daunted Tau are a shade of their former glory with the loss of Taudar/Eldau. Are Tau a strong army still? No doubt. But now that having reliable objective holders, specifically objective secured holders, is even more important, Tau aren't all they used to be. And given how easy it is to kill their T3 infantry, and with the major changes to jink, the Devilfish took a substantial hit as well. This should all come across as harsh. Because it is. You got a great book. If the only complaint you can manage is "murrmrrr i have to pay for my CCW now waaaah" or "I get a TEQ chariot with 4 extra rending attacks but it looks odd so I'm butthurt"... just stop. Actually -use- the army before you get all whiney about a few obviously needed changes. At least your army didnt get stomped all over like my poor nids.
Now feel free to pick out each induvidual line of this to tell me how wrong I am and that now SW are the worst codex ever to be made. You still wont have a leg to stand on.
For 250 points you get grav centurions that spit out 15 shots per turn, wounding on armor save and re rolling wounds. The difference is the centurions don't have to make it across the table to get those 15 attacks and they have a better armor save. I don't see how TWC are suddenly a game changer. They're better than they were, but still not the death star unit other codexes have access to.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Space marines +1 -grav guns, thunder cannons, centurions, combat squads, chapter tactics like bikes as troops...
Do the math hammer on that and you get approximately space marines -3.
The only complaint I have about the book is the layout.
I much prefer what they did with the 6th ed style like Vanilla Marines.
The pics above the units annoy me. There's not much in the way of fluff anymore and where has the fantastic art gone?
Was the Ork codex set out like this?
On the army side, I like it a lot. They lost a few options, had some very necessary nerfs to GH and gained tons from points reductions, streamlined rules and general buffs.
My winners:
Ven Dreads with the Shield and Axe - Great survivability.
Stormwolf - I'm taking never a Land Raider again. No point when this thing gets there faster and is better equipped.
TWC - So rending on Wolf Claws. Yup.
Long Fangs - They are still winners IMO. I'm considering 2 Las, 2 Plas Cannon in each squad and taking two squads. Splits it up nicely so you don't have all your eggs in one basket.
Blood Claws - Just did get a lot better, IMO. WS3 is still meh, but ohhhh those attacks on the charge are going to be good. Mini 'Zerkers.
Finally...
General point reduction of characters - Much needed, much welcomed. Especially on Wolf Lord and Arjac.
One thing to consider is running many stormwolves. AA is not really what it used to be since the necron flyers have seen a sharp decrease and the FMC circus belongs pretty much just to Tyranids.
Throw in 5 min squads of GH's/BC's in stormwolves and the opponent is gonna have a real hard time dealing with 5 12/12/12 3HP flyers that don't care about melta.
... you'll suck balls in maelstrom missions though.
StarHunter25 wrote: Now feel free to pick out each induvidual line of this to tell me how wrong I am and that now SW are the worst codex ever to be made. You still wont have a leg to stand on.
Whole lot o' whinging in your post. Most people aren't complaining about the things you are talking about and I don't think anyone is saying "SW are the worst codex ever to be made". But don't let me stop your needless ranting.
The only point you touched on that people are genuinely complaining about is GH, which have been nerfed but I agree they're probably at a better level now. We sure as hell don't want them nerfed to the point of Tacticals because Tacticals suck hairy monkey balls. Though a legitimate GH complaint is no more MOTW, which is a shame. I don't care all that much personally, I never liked the more recent fluff where SW who had succumb to the curse of the wulfen were allowed to stay on fighting with the chapter, but if you spent time making MOTW models then I could see how it would be annoying.
StarHunter25 wrote: This thing is going to make the rage over the 6e Heldrake seem like a high school sit in.
It won't, really, because 360 degree torrent > a blast weapon, and it costs 50 points more than a Heldrake.
The Drake was cheese because it was under-costed for a 360 degree AP3 torrent weapon. That weapon getting fixed to hull-mounted was enough to single-handedly balance the Heldrake, though it's still slightly under-costed.
Also, ending your post with "what I just said was ridiculous and now people are going to point that out the fools" is not only nonconstructive, but it also doesn't make your post any less ridiculous.
ClassicCarraway wrote: I don't get all the hate for the Logan chariot. It certainly fits the fluff and feel of the Space Wolves in every way. A viking longboat pulled by wolves, and yet somehow some people feel it doesn't fit in an army based on vikings, is very hero centric, and is loaded with wolves.
Space Wolves are supposed to be Space Marines with a nordic flavor.
StarHunter25 wrote: This thing is going to make the rage over the 6e Heldrake seem like a high school sit in.
It won't, really, because 360 degree torrent > a blast weapon, and it costs 50 points more than a Heldrake.
The Drake was cheese because it was under-costed for a 360 degree AP3 torrent weapon. That weapon getting fixed to hull-mounted was enough to single-handedly balance the Heldrake, though it's still slightly under-costed.
Also, ending your post with "what I just said was ridiculous and now people are going to point that out the fools" is not only nonconstructive, but it also doesn't make your post any less ridiculous.
Of course the Drake being back to hull-mounted simply dropped CSM down a few more notches, considering it barely hit high in the tournament scene, it pretty much just cemented it as "Chaos Daemon Allies"
Seems Wolves have the best priest running though, better then a Chappy, and better then Dark Apostle with PF IF or MC, with FNP 6+.
a single 5th ed lonewolve of mine, take down a black mace daemon prince, the other guy was like
I'd have a Lone Wolf kill Mephiston and Abaddon before...
StarHunter25 wrote: Honestly, I want to see this codex in person. Even if they are just "Space Marines +1", which is what most are saying about them, that is huge.
Nah, I wouldn't say they're SM+1, they're on far more even ground than they were in 5th ed. Tac Marines are arguably superior to GH in some aspects and C:SM actually has a lot of unique options now that haven't been pillaged by other books.
Bulldogging wrote: Should have left Logans model alone, made Bjorn the LoW since he has a new kit anyway. Then SW could have got a big tank or something.
I'm not hating on the chariot, just they could have picked new kits better overall.
A big tank would have been more interesting than Murder,slow AV12,fang.
I would have loved to see Bjorn become a real crazy beast worthy of the LOW title, but given he's just a dreadnought and dreadnoughts really aren't that hard to kill, it's hard to turn him in to a real high point LOW. Unless they turned him in to a superheavy or something (it's not like GW are afraid of retconning stuff).
Bulldogging wrote: Should have left Logans model alone, made Bjorn the LoW since he has a new kit anyway. Then SW could have got a big tank or something.
I'm not hating on the chariot, just they could have picked new kits better overall.
A big tank would have been more interesting than Murder,slow AV12,fang.
I would have loved to see Bjorn become a real crazy beast worthy of the LOW title, but given he's just a dreadnought and dreadnoughts really aren't that hard to kill, it's hard to turn him in to a real high point LOW. Unless they turned him in to a superheavy or something (it's not like GW are afraid of retconning stuff).
pfft, they could have chained 2 Thunderwolves to him and called it a day.
Having finally gotten a good look at it.
There is very little I don't like about it.
I think the Wargear price placement iirc should have been just before the weapons or on the last page.
Jancoran wrote: Hoboy. Didnt take long for these threads to start did it?
If somebody fields that if I ever play again I am going to loose. Why will I loose? I will be going "HO HO HO" throughout out the game, I will forget what to do. I mean, how can I even fantom of hurting good old ST Nick.
So far, I've played 2 games with the new book, and have been quite happy with the new book, I love the point decrease to TWC, Njal's new point cost makes him a lot more appealing to field now. Nothing in this book makes me scream "THAT'S GARBAGE! WHAT ARE THEY THINKING!" but stuff like removing mark of the wulfen and removing talismans and the necklace are just things that are bummers, but nothing severe. So to answer the OP's question, I'm not disappointed with the new SW codex, but am quite happy with it, but that's my personal opinion,
I guess all flamers and blast weapons are useless then, eh? That's why no one ever takes the Tyrannofex. <-- Sarcasm.
I'm aware that CSM is in a bad spot- there's no need to start a pity party about it though. Point is, the 'Drake being one of a very small number of decent units in the codex doesn't justify it having the ability to spontaneously swallow its mouth-mounted gun and shove it out its ass or it hands so that it could target units from any angle. That was dumb from both an aesthetic and balance perspective, and GW did the right thing by returning it to its original state of being a hull-mounted weapon.
Chaos players shouldn't be mad about the 'Drake getting nerfed so much as they should be mad that CSM's internal balance is so crap that nerfing a unit that deserved it shattered the competitive playability of the entire faction.
To the complaining Chaos players, two wrongs don't make a right. Better put, just because they failed to make a good Chaos book doesn't make it right that they gut other books, too. Use this as more ammunition on why you should play other games that don't invalidate armies upon releasing rules updates, but give you more options to play that build upon your old styles.
BlaxicanX wrote: I guess all flamers and blast weapons are useless then, eh?
I'm aware that CSM is in a bad spot- there's no need to start a pity party about it though. Point is, the 'Drake being one of a very small number of decent units in the codex doesn't justify it having the ability to spontaneously swallow its mouth-mounted gun and shove it out its ass or it hands so that it could target units from any angle. That was dumb from both an aesthetic and mechanical perspective, and GW did the right thing by returning it to its original state of being a hull-mounted weapon.
Chaos players should be buttmad less about the Heldrake being reduced to a sensible unit and more that CSM's internal balance is so crap that reducing it to a sensible unit shattered the faction's competitive playability.
Except as been proven it could move its head as it wills, it's a Daemon Engine and all that.
Sad thing is even with the 360 Chaos was near the tail end of tournament wins, with SoB ahead of them even.
Sillycybin wrote: All I am saying is that the heldrake's current profile shouldn't be more expensive, nothing about the turret mounting.
Fair enough.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: Except as been proven it could move its head as it wills, it's a Daemon Engine and all that.
Sad thing is even with the 360 Chaos was near the tail end of tournament wins, with SoB ahead of them even.
Also we are, haven't you read any CSM topic?
It's a sad state of affairs, yeah. On the other hand though, I think that if the power-level of the last four codices is any indication of how the 7th edition meta is going to look, CSM may be able to make a come back. They match up quite fairy with Tyranids, Guard, Orks and Space Wolves.
Sillycybin wrote: All I am saying is that the heldrake's current profile shouldn't be more expensive, nothing about the turret mounting.
Fair enough.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: Except as been proven it could move its head as it wills, it's a Daemon Engine and all that.
Sad thing is even with the 360 Chaos was near the tail end of tournament wins, with SoB ahead of them even.
Also we are, haven't you read any CSM topic?
It's a sad state of affairs, yeah. On the other hand though, I think that if the power-level of the last four codices is any indication of how the 7th edition meta is going to look, CSM may be able to make a come back. They match up quite fairy with Tyranids, Guard, Orks and Space Wolves.
... a man can hope, anyway.
While not being extremely powerful like Eldar, the most recent recent releases (excluding Tyranids) seem to have good internal balance which bodes well for the game.
Toofast wrote: For 250 points you get grav centurions that spit out 15 shots per turn, wounding on armor save and re rolling wounds. The difference is the centurions don't have to make it across the table to get those 15 attacks and they have a better armor save. I don't see how TWC are suddenly a game changer. They're better than they were, but still not the death star unit other codexes have access to.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Space marines +1 -grav guns, thunder cannons, centurions, combat squads, chapter tactics like bikes as troops...
Do the math hammer on that and you get approximately space marines -3.
First, do you have any inv save, no?, thats what i was thinking, good luck trying to kill a mob of boyz with that, even with a single nob with pk your centurion unit fall.
Besides that fact, i never talk about a game changer or death star, i was talking about a good murder unit i build within 20 min reading the new codex, they have their downs, yes, like the centurions, they have con and pros, but thats why i put a synerge with the swiftclaws (bikes) i dont pla c:sm, so i dont know the synerge with the centurions.
Conclusion, i never writte about a death star, i am talking about good units with good builts instead of whining
they arent speesh marines +1, they are different, they are space wolves, kings of the close quarter combat
Terminators have lost some weapon options. Namely replacing storm bolter with storm shield, this invalidates some of my terminator models that have storm shield and axe/sword rather than hammer.
(I feel this is making them to in line with codex marines with SS/hammer and twin claw profiles)
This is really lame. When does GW learn not to invalidate people's model collections??
And apparently, Wolf Guard Terminators no longer can Pod in, but Teleport like other Terminators. That's a huge big nerf, since teleporting is essentially a suicide. As if the Terminators weren't bad enough already.
My pal has a Loganwing army with Terminators w/power weapons with Drop pods, it was moderately effective but all but useless now. Yeah, he's pretty pissed.
Terminators have lost some weapon options. Namely replacing storm bolter with storm shield, this invalidates some of my terminator models that have storm shield and axe/sword rather than hammer.
(I feel this is making them to in line with codex marines with SS/hammer and twin claw profiles)
This is really lame. When does GW learn not to invalidate people's model collections??
And apparently, Wolf Guard Terminators no longer can Pod in, but Teleport like other Terminators. That's a huge big nerf, since teleporting is essentially a suicide. As if the Terminators weren't bad enough already.
My pal has a Loganwing army with Terminators w/power weapons with Drop pods, it was moderately effective but all but useless now. Yeah, he's pretty pissed.
You can now take Pods in Fast Attack. With all-termies he'll be playing unbound, so can take as many pods as he needs.
Terminators have lost some weapon options. Namely replacing storm bolter with storm shield, this invalidates some of my terminator models that have storm shield and axe/sword rather than hammer.
(I feel this is making them to in line with codex marines with SS/hammer and twin claw profiles)
This is really lame. When does GW learn not to invalidate people's model collections??
And apparently, Wolf Guard Terminators no longer can Pod in, but Teleport like other Terminators. That's a huge big nerf, since teleporting is essentially a suicide. As if the Terminators weren't bad enough already.
My pal has a Loganwing army with Terminators w/power weapons with Drop pods, it was moderately effective but all but useless now. Yeah, he's pretty pissed.
They can no longer take Drop pods, but they can take Stormwolfs. Flying assault craft with lots of weapons. Seems ok to me really. I've had the book a couple of days and been toying around with my list relative to the new codex. We are all going to need to buy Stormwolfs and Stormfangs. That's it really lol. GW need to be selling those £49 models...
That is slightly annoying, but it is going to make our army SO much better when we do get those fliers. Either two Swolfs or Swolf/Sfang combo in any 2000 pt game.
Admittedly LF's are no longer as good, and I painstakingly acquired many many missile launcher dudes over the past few years...
I like Tehjonny's sig. At first I wanted to play Space Wolves because of the Viking aspect, but now they're just silly. I settled on Orks because they still have the best fluff.
Terminators have lost some weapon options. Namely replacing storm bolter with storm shield, this invalidates some of my terminator models that have storm shield and axe/sword rather than hammer.
(I feel this is making them to in line with codex marines with SS/hammer and twin claw profiles)
This is really lame. When does GW learn not to invalidate people's model collections??
And apparently, Wolf Guard Terminators no longer can Pod in, but Teleport like other Terminators. That's a huge big nerf, since teleporting is essentially a suicide. As if the Terminators weren't bad enough already.
My pal has a Loganwing army with Terminators w/power weapons with Drop pods, it was moderately effective but all but useless now. Yeah, he's pretty pissed.
They can no longer take Drop pods, but they can take Stormwolfs. Flying assault craft with lots of weapons. Seems ok to me really. I've had the book a couple of days and been toying around with my list relative to the new codex. We are all going to need to buy Stormwolfs and Stormfangs. That's it really lol. GW need to be selling those £49 models...
That is slightly annoying, but it is going to make our army SO much better when we do get those fliers. Either two Swolfs or Swolf/Sfang combo in any 2000 pt game.
Admittedly LF's are no longer as good, and I painstakingly acquired many many missile launcher dudes over the past few years...
I agree here. Except for LF. They are still real good, if a little expensive. I'm still planning on taking two units with Plasma Cannon and Lascannon.
Most Logan wings that I saw totally ignored the FA section. Well, this Comdex allows you to take up to three drop pods as fast attack. So he just takes those and pats his termis in them. The left over units now teleport in using homing beacons to safely show up. Sounds like a good way to get the most out of an old build.
And if anyone expects their army to remain unchanged when a new Comdex comes out they haven't been in the game very long at all. Its something we all have had to deal with.
Terminators have lost some weapon options. Namely replacing storm bolter with storm shield, this invalidates some of my terminator models that have storm shield and axe/sword rather than hammer.
(I feel this is making them to in line with codex marines with SS/hammer and twin claw profiles)
This is really lame. When does GW learn not to invalidate people's model collections??
And apparently, Wolf Guard Terminators no longer can Pod in, but Teleport like other Terminators. That's a huge big nerf, since teleporting is essentially a suicide. As if the Terminators weren't bad enough already.
My pal has a Loganwing army with Terminators w/power weapons with Drop pods, it was moderately effective but all but useless now. Yeah, he's pretty pissed.
They can no longer take Drop pods, but they can take Stormwolfs. Flying assault craft with lots of weapons. Seems ok to me really. I've had the book a couple of days and been toying around with my list relative to the new codex. We are all going to need to buy Stormwolfs and Stormfangs. That's it really lol. GW need to be selling those £49 models...
That is slightly annoying, but it is going to make our army SO much better when we do get those fliers. Either two Swolfs or Swolf/Sfang combo in any 2000 pt game.
Admittedly LF's are no longer as good, and I painstakingly acquired many many missile launcher dudes over the past few years...
DaddyWarcrimes wrote: I'd call my reaction "underwhelmed". The new format is wretched. The editing is as poor as usual.
The loss of a purchasable Eternal Warrior turns our beat stick HQs into JV scrubs like Chaos Lords.
On the other hand, Ulrik is going to be godly as a support character, as will Njal. Our fire support dreadnoughts got a little bit cheaper. Our Wolf Guard Terminators got a little cheaper. Long Fangs with rocket launchers got more expensive but lascannons got cheaper. Vindicators (which were never good for a short ranged army) got more expensive while Predators got a lot cheaper. Wolf Scouts became a total waste of a slot, but we were going to fill that slot with Wolf Guard and dreadnoughts anyway.
Oh, and who likes filling their army with Lone Wolves? I know I'll be bringing 2 or 3 with just a power sword to lurk around amidst the Lascannoneers as counter-assault support units.
It's a book of gains and losses, that just happens to be extremely poorly laid out and edited, and really, really shiny. It's not AM, but it's also not Tyranids.
So what HQs are worth taking now?
I think:
Harald, Njal as the two main named chars that are worth it.
Terminators have lost some weapon options. Namely replacing storm bolter with storm shield, this invalidates some of my terminator models that have storm shield and axe/sword rather than hammer.
(I feel this is making them to in line with codex marines with SS/hammer and twin claw profiles)
This is really lame. When does GW learn not to invalidate people's model collections??
And apparently, Wolf Guard Terminators no longer can Pod in, but Teleport like other Terminators. That's a huge big nerf, since teleporting is essentially a suicide. As if the Terminators weren't bad enough already.
My pal has a Loganwing army with Terminators w/power weapons with Drop pods, it was moderately effective but all but useless now. Yeah, he's pretty pissed.
They can no longer take Drop pods, but they can take Stormwolfs. Flying assault craft with lots of weapons. Seems ok to me really. I've had the book a couple of days and been toying around with my list relative to the new codex. We are all going to need to buy Stormwolfs and Stormfangs. That's it really lol. GW need to be selling those £49 models...
That is slightly annoying, but it is going to make our army SO much better when we do get those fliers. Either two Swolfs or Swolf/Sfang combo in any 2000 pt game.
Admittedly LF's are no longer as good, and I painstakingly acquired many many missile launcher dudes over the past few years...
I agree here. Except for LF. They are still real good, if a little expensive. I'm still planning on taking two units with Plasma Cannon and Lascannon.
See how you get on mate - I think with the new army, you're going to be getting up in grills far more readily than previously. Might make those LF's backfield hangers, but admittedly at the moment I have no idea what will happen. I do like Multi-Melta Drop-pod suicide squads though...:p.
After reading this topic I have to ask if 'flavourful rules' means 'high power for low cost'? 'Cos I'm struggling to see what else it can mean, here.
Space Wolves are supposed to be Space Marines with a nordic flavor.
Not vikings with a Space Marine flavor.
Everything about the Logan Chariot is awful.
This, a thousand time this.
Yup. In fact I barely get much kind of nordic flavour off space wolves anyway, beyond the occasional rune or generic bit of knotwork. They're not vikings - or even Hagar the Horrible - in spaaace; they're wolf fetishists in spaaace. Anyone who thinks space wolves are viking-like and the flying wolf bathtub adequately represents a longboat, needs a bit of education.
No one is saying you can't or shouldn't have fun playing 40k, but calling it a beer and pretzels game is pretty absurd.
My friends and I were playing some casual games. One of them was drinking a lot of beer and was wasted throughout this one game against another guy. He kept cheating himself and somehow still won.
There were also pretzels involved. I know because I ate them all.
Therefore, everyone who doesn't think 40k should be associated with beer and pretzels needs to reevaluate their outlook on life.
You, on the other hand: good on you for being deliberately obtuse. Sure beats thinking of anything worthwhile to say, huh?
Nuwisha wrote: I had 30 wulfen models... for my 13th Company Army.
I miss that army, so many fleas.
I would say make them all Wolf Guard lead by a Wolf Priest with a Stone, that should give the same affect. Maybe replace the Bolt Pistol with Power Weapons.
Nuwisha wrote: I had 30 wulfen models... for my 13th Company Army.
I miss that army, so many fleas.
I would say make them all Wolf Guard lead by a Wolf Priest with a Stone, that should give the same affect. Maybe replace the Bolt Pistol with Power Weapons.
I'm just going with Blood Claws. The old fluff for Wulfen had Wolf Priests leading them most of the time, so my Wolf Priest leading them makes perfect sense. Some of the models still have Bolt Pistols, which is all Blood Claws get (unless you give them special weapons, naturally). Murderous rampaging melee unit led by a Wolf Priest? Sounds like Wulfen!
Also, for Logan Wing fans, the Champions of Fenris supplement has most of the answers you need. The Company of the Great Wolf detachment has 0 mandatory troops, and 8 elite slots (2 of which are mandatory). You still don't get ObSec, but all your Wolf Guard do get a free +1 WS.
Nuwisha wrote: I had 30 wulfen models... for my 13th Company Army.
I miss that army, so many fleas.
I would say make them all Wolf Guard lead by a Wolf Priest with a Stone, that should give the same affect. Maybe replace the Bolt Pistol with Power Weapons.
I'm just going with Blood Claws. The old fluff for Wulfen had Wolf Priests leading them most of the time, so my Wolf Priest leading them makes perfect sense. Some of the models still have Bolt Pistols, which is all Blood Claws get (unless you give them special weapons, naturally). Murderous rampaging melee unit led by a Wolf Priest? Sounds like Wulfen!
Also, for Logan Wing fans, the Champions of Fenris supplement has most of the answers you need. The Company of the Great Wolf detachment has 0 mandatory troops, and 8 elite slots (2 of which are mandatory). You still don't get ObSec, but all your Wolf Guard do get a free +1 WS.
That it a murderous idea, a pack of 15 bloodclaws lead by one wolfpriest with the wulfen stone, they are 60 attacks s5 on the charge, and if you joint one wolfguard with a wolfclaw, you have 3 attacks s6 ap3 shred more on the charge, a true blender, a little expensibe, maybe, but they are space marines at the end, i mean Sv3+, ATSKNF, S4 with rage
Outside of the almost "so plain it's silly" name of Herald, him and Ulrik are probably the two HQs I'd take. Solid TWC lord and a good buff HQ. If you could still make a true Bearlord, I'd go for that and Urlik.
TheKbob wrote: Outside of the almost "so plain it's silly" name of Herald, him and Ulrik are probably the two HQs I'd take. Solid TWC lord and a good buff HQ. If you could still make a true Bearlord, I'd go for that and Urlik.
That is nice that you can say that about Ulrik now
As I said in N&R I love the Grimnar chariot. For me the whole 'GRIMDARK take it seriously' attitude is much more childish than a tongue in cheek approach to miniature design in what is a game of toy soldiers at the end of the day, and gets back to GWs roots. Best model since the Knight Titan imo.
tyrannosaurus wrote: As I said in N&R I love the Grimnar chariot. For me the whole 'GRIMDARK take it seriously' attitude is much more childish than a tongue in cheek approach to miniature design in what is a game of toy soldiers at the end of the day, and gets back to GWs roots. Best model since the Knight Titan imo.
I think trying to call other peoples' attitude childish is childish.
We all have our limits. To me, there's nothing tongue in cheek about Santa Claws, it's just silly, not tongue in cheek silly.
TheKbob wrote: Outside of the almost "so plain it's silly" name of Herald, him and Ulrik are probably the two HQs I'd take. Solid TWC lord and a good buff HQ. If you could still make a true Bearlord, I'd go for that and Urlik.
Yeah I agree, they're probably my top 2 characters for the HQs section. Still looking over everything though, but they're the ones who stood out for me.
Paradigm wrote: I'm not at all disappointed. We got cost drops on anything that needed it, the new units are very cool, the changes to GH are neither unexpected nor unwarranted, and to say they've been reduced to 'just' tactical marines is not true at all.
The codex seems to be balanced internally and externally, it fixes a lot of issues and doesn't change how the army plays. what more can you ask?
This. The list of things that disappoint me are very short. Njal got nerfed hard and Ragnar's not much better, Wolf Scouts got a WTF nerf and the lost wargear makes me sad. However, basically everything else about the book is amazing, including little things like getting rid of the worst aspects of the fluff on characters like Canis Wolfborn (haven't checked to see if this is a trend throughout though).
Oh and is it just me, or is there a MAJOR typo on the Wolf Priest, restricting Oath of War to just him? That needs to be FAQ'd immediately.
I have to agree. On my first glance through it seemed that everything that used to be popular on the tournament scene had been nerfed... but even then I was excited about some of the more obvious (to me) boosts.
Having spent a bit more time now looking through it, comparing points costs in depth etc.... the only real nerfs are the obvious ones that really needed it like grey hunters and long fangs. Even Rune Priests come out OK..... even though they lost the enormous dispell bubble, they're a lot cheaper now too and still pretty good
Then there's the other 86% of the codex, which is awesome!
Oh and I was also initially worried about the Wolf Priest wording... until I doubled checked the main rules description of "preferred enemy"
Andilus Greatsword wrote:
Thorgrim Bloodcrow wrote: I love it, the second I glanced through it all kinds of ideas started sparking up in my mind.
Before, I never cared for the bikes, jump packs, Iron Priests and Blood Claws and now I want to field units of all of them.
This. SOOOOO this! The book has opened up a ton of options, and it makes me VERY happy as someone who was sick of how you were shoehorned into writing a SW list way back in 5th ed!
And this was what I noticed immediately!!! Unlike you... I started playing Space Wolves in the 90s with their wonderful 2nd ed codex.... so I've ALWAYS been a fan of fast attack style blood claws. As you might imagine... I'm super duper amazingly happy to see them buffed, cheaper and no longer shunned by the stupid 3rd ed fluff!
StarHunter25 wrote:Honestly, I want to see this codex in person. Even if they are just "Space Marines +1", which is what most are saying about them, that is huge. C:SM is a great codex with so many ways to use it that I am quite literally aggravated. I play CSM, specifically Khorne CSM. A standard CSM for me has the CCW and MoK. Guess what that is roughly equivalent rules wise (though lacking the lessened, though still amazing ATSKNF), but costs more than your "ultra nerf-hammered GH"? And complaining that your terminators cost 39 points apparently? That is -cheaper- than C:SM in case you forgot. The new murderdread of murder or whatever it's called basically took a giant dump on the Furioso. On top of that you apparently get a 3++ on a dread? Good grief, even if it is oooonly on the front arc, proper positioning just made that one of the worst things to face unless you have ungodly melta/las tier AT firepower. I'm no expert at mathhammer, but I'd wager it'd take a full squad of lascannon havocs/devastators 2-3 turns to finally kill that thing.
Now we get to the "stupid flying wolfbox". That thing is, quite honestly, the most blatant example of why Space Wolves are space marines +1. Its a Stormraven but better. Correct me if i'm wrong, but is it not one of the few non-superheavy weapons in the game that can handle horde infantry, MEQ, TEQ, MC, Light armor, and heavy armor all with the same ease? And you have the nerve to complain about it?? This thing is going to make the rage over the 6e Heldrake seem like a high school sit in. And it is apparently also has the same functionality as a LRC as far as being an assault transport, for less? Even without having read the dex yet, just with the general explanations I've read in this thread alone, I can't figure out how my current army (CSM) will be able to do a single thing to this. TWC were amazing before, and now with a point reduction I'd expect 8/10 list to at least have a 5 strong unit, just as board control units. GH still have the same role they had before: arguably the best MEQ objective holders in the game. It's a good thing their point cost got brought in line. Plus the shenanigans with taking a flamer at no cost, then saying "oh look, a plasma gun that would normally cost 15 points... I guess it's free because Fenris".
Sorry, all of your complaints fall on deaf ears from this direction. Yeah, you didn't get an army of 2++ 10 point terminators all with double grav cannons + TH/LC. GW made a mistake with Eldar, and they are silently admitting it. Even the much daunted Tau are a shade of their former glory with the loss of Taudar/Eldau. Are Tau a strong army still? No doubt. But now that having reliable objective holders, specifically objective secured holders, is even more important, Tau aren't all they used to be. And given how easy it is to kill their T3 infantry, and with the major changes to jink, the Devilfish took a substantial hit as well. This should all come across as harsh. Because it is. You got a great book. If the only complaint you can manage is "murrmrrr i have to pay for my CCW now waaaah" or "I get a TEQ chariot with 4 extra rending attacks but it looks odd so I'm butthurt"... just stop. Actually -use- the army before you get all whiney about a few obviously needed changes. At least your army didnt get stomped all over like my poor nids.
Now feel free to pick out each induvidual line of this to tell me how wrong I am and that now SW are the worst codex ever to be made. You still wont have a leg to stand on.
I'm not going to pick your post apart line by line.
I'm about 95% happy with the new codex
At first glance, almost anything looks a viable choice somehow... and that's all I ever wanted
I'm glad GH/LF spam took a nerf.... it's boring and I don't like being shoe-horned into that sort of cookie cutter math spam
Bulldogging wrote:Honestly if GW was any sort of competent gaming company, they would do frequent erratas to fix balance issues(for free).
That came off more bashing of GW than I meant. I enjoy 40k, but they could do a much better job with balance.
That's long been an issue... happily this codex seems to have pretty reasonable internal balance. Can't really say about external balance yet... but it's a start
Random Dude wrote:I like Tehjonny's sig. At first I wanted to play Space Wolves because of the Viking aspect, but now they're just silly.
Tehjonny's sig wrote:Back in the day, we were epic Space Vikings with horns, and beer, and stupid mockney accents, and we didn't have any truck with this flying around like a pansy shizzle. We certainly didn't surround ourselves with mangy animals.
I for one DON'T like Tehjonny's sig and I'm super happy that this sort of attitude has been completely $#*% on by this codex.
"Back in the Day" there was never any mention of this "both feet on the ground" nonsense.... that was some crap brought in with 3rd Ed... which any old school 40K player knows was "The Day 40K Died"... or "Worst Edition Ever"
"Back in the Day" ..... Russ had 2 pet wolves.... so I guess Spaces Wolves have always surrounded themselves with mangy animals.
Sky Claws are back, cheaper and better than ever with a dedicated Wolf Guard leader
Wolf Guard jump packs area cheaper than ever... only 3ppm !!!!
We have... not one, but two Space Wolf unique fliers
One of those fliers is a "Dedicated Transport" to just about every unit in the book (so no FOC issues)
Only marine army to have stand alone drop pods
Still have Land Speeders (which everyone seemed to ignore during the whole "both feet on the ground" era)
Terminators can now TELEPORT ?!?!
Chapter Master now rides a hover chariot!!!
So I guess the whole "both feet on the ground" malarkey has been well and truly told where it can stick itself (and about time!!)
easysauce wrote:I wanted to get into SW's before, but found the codex lacking and unfluffy as the best lists were all basically shooty spam missles lists.
the new dex is a huge improvement,
Exactly my feelings.
For too long, people on the internet have claimed
Space Wolves are NOT a melee army, they're a close range army
These same people are the ones who will sprout on with the "both feet on the ground" nonsense... but they don't dare use an axe?!
This codex heralds a return to the good old days of the Space Wolves.
tyrannosaurus wrote:As I said in N&R I love the Grimnar chariot. For me the whole 'GRIMDARK take it seriously' attitude is much more childish than a tongue in cheek approach to miniature design in what is a game of toy soldiers at the end of the day, and gets back to GWs roots. Best model since the Knight Titan imo.
Yeah I agree.... I'm sick of skulls and I'm sick of grimdark over-seriousness
I want to have FUN and use ridiculous things like giants in armour riding wolves and hover chariots.... and berzerkers with rocket packs on their back to hurl them into combat faster
womprat49 wrote:Fantastic Codex very pleased! Well worth the wait TONS of flexibility and variations now.
It's everything I asked for
Somewhere around here is a thread where I said something to effect of - I just want a codex where all the units are a valid choice, and no one tells me I'm stupid for using the models I find appealing instead of 5xGHwith [set loadout] + 4xLF with [set loadout]
"Internal Balance" I think we call it
maybe I'm the fabled "Beer and Pretzels" gamer?
You know what.... maybe I'm just crazy
I know I'm like a month-late to the party, but I just realized that the Murderfang dreadnought has his face exposed!?
I don't know, I mean I've seen this on a couple of CSM dreadnoughts, but I guess it seemed to make more sense because they were typically warped with demons and such and practicality goes out the door with Chaos. But seeing it on a loyalist dreadnought (particularly with this derpy face) is really bizarre.
I know I'm like a month-late to the party, but I just realized that the Murderfang dreadnought has his face exposed!?
I don't know, I mean I've seen this on a couple of CSM dreadnoughts, but I guess it seemed to make more sense because they were typically warped with demons and such and practicality goes out the door with Chaos. But seeing it on a loyalist dreadnought (particularly with this derpy face) is really bizarre.
Yes we all saw it, that alone took up 5-10 pages of the thread.
I say if you don't like it [I don't] don't use it, I will either go with the scull helm or just cover it up.
I know I'm like a month-late to the party, but I just realized that the Murderfang dreadnought has his face exposed!?
I don't know, I mean I've seen this on a couple of CSM dreadnoughts, but I guess it seemed to make more sense because they were typically warped with demons and such and practicality goes out the door with Chaos. But seeing it on a loyalist dreadnought (particularly with this derpy face) is really bizarre.
Yes we all saw it, that alone took up 5-10 pages of the thread.
I say if you don't like it [I don't] don't use it, I will either go with the scull helm or just cover it up.
Fair enough, I think I got caught up in people making all of the "murder-on-murder-on-murder" jokes and hadn't bothered to click through all of the pictures on the GW website.
There's a difference between 40k's old 'tongue in cheek, cheesy grimdark' and 'just plain silly.' This SW dex has gone into silly territory. I used to like SW, they were my second favorite chapter. Now I'd feel ridiculous for fielding them. They're vikings, so they have ice weapons and sleighs pulled by wolves! No. Just no.
MWHistorian wrote: There's a difference between 40k's old 'tongue in cheek, cheesy grimdark' and 'just plain silly.' This SW dex has gone into silly territory. I used to like SW, they were my second favorite chapter. Now I'd feel ridiculous for fielding them. They're vikings, so they have ice weapons and sleighs pulled by wolves! No. Just no.
MWHistorian wrote: There's a difference between 40k's old 'tongue in cheek, cheesy grimdark' and 'just plain silly.' This SW dex has gone into silly territory. I used to like SW, they were my second favorite chapter. Now I'd feel ridiculous for fielding them. They're vikings, so they have ice weapons and sleighs pulled by wolves! No. Just no.
GW has gone full silly.
This is how I've felt about SW's for a while.
I *want* to like them, but GW has driven off cliff with them. With the last codex and TWC's and absurd fluff about firing artillery by smell, this codex's absurd fliers and murderfacefang sillyness and Logan Claus, and their awful HH fluff, tGW's made them just...odious.
MWHistorian wrote: There's a difference between 40k's old 'tongue in cheek, cheesy grimdark' and 'just plain silly.' This SW dex has gone into silly territory. I used to like SW, they were my second favorite chapter. Now I'd feel ridiculous for fielding them. They're vikings, so they have ice weapons and sleighs pulled by wolves! No. Just no.
GW has gone full silly.
This is how I've felt about SW's for a while.
I *want* to like them, but GW has driven off cliff with them. With the last codex and TWC's and absurd fluff about firing artillery by smell, this codex's absurd fliers and murderfacefang sillyness and Logan Claus, and their awful HH fluff, tGW's made them just...odious.
Do people have the same issues with the Bloodbloodblood marines?
MWHistorian wrote: There's a difference between 40k's old 'tongue in cheek, cheesy grimdark' and 'just plain silly.' This SW dex has gone into silly territory. I used to like SW, they were my second favorite chapter. Now I'd feel ridiculous for fielding them. They're vikings, so they have ice weapons and sleighs pulled by wolves! No. Just no.
GW has gone full silly.
This is how I've felt about SW's for a while.
I *want* to like them, but GW has driven off cliff with them. With the last codex and TWC's and absurd fluff about firing artillery by smell, this codex's absurd fliers and murdering sillyness and Logan Claus, and their awful HH fluff, tGW's made them just...odious.
Do people have the same issues with the Bloodbloodblood marines?
MWHistorian wrote: There's a difference between 40k's old 'tongue in cheek, cheesy grimdark' and 'just plain silly.' This SW dex has gone into silly territory. I used to like SW, they were my second favorite chapter. Now I'd feel ridiculous for fielding them. They're vikings, so they have ice weapons and sleighs pulled by wolves! No. Just no.
GW has gone full silly.
This is how I've felt about SW's for a while.
I *want* to like them, but GW has driven off cliff with them. With the last codex and TWC's and absurd fluff about firing artillery by smell, this codex's absurd fliers and murderfacefang sillyness and Logan Claus, and their awful HH fluff, tGW's made them just...odious.
Do people have the same issues with the Bloodbloodblood marines?
In some ways yes, though admittedly they're not quite as overboard as the SW's are (yet). That said, they're close (e.g. the forced renaming of Dreadnought close combat weapons to Blood Fists for no reason, Bloodstrike missiles, etc )
I was in the US cavalry and we didn't ride around the desert on horses with big cowboy hats, sabers and handlebar mustaches. I didn't use my Cowboy Cav Jeep with the Cowboy Indian Fighter Machine gun.
The viking theme was taken in a silly direction. Light hearted is good. Silly is not when the game isn't supposed to be silly.
MWHistorian wrote: There's a difference between 40k's old 'tongue in cheek, cheesy grimdark' and 'just plain silly.' This SW dex has gone into silly territory. I used to like SW, they were my second favorite chapter. Now I'd feel ridiculous for fielding them. They're vikings, so they have ice weapons and sleighs pulled by wolves! No. Just no.
GW has gone full silly.
This is how I've felt about SW's for a while.
I *want* to like them, but GW has driven off cliff with them. With the last codex and TWC's and absurd fluff about firing artillery by smell, this codex's absurd fliers and murderfacefang sillyness and Logan Claus, and their awful HH fluff, tGW's made them just...odious.
Do people have the same issues with the Bloodbloodblood marines?
I do, my chapter is about to get stupider if the Space Wolves can be used as a gauge.
I was bummed with the book, but as others have said, because the old builds are less powerful. There are SO many new builds to toy with and think about! With the rumors of the new formations, I am even considering a few models I would have never used!
Wolf claws, cheap equipment for wolf guard, TWC, flier, all sorts of cool stuff.
Lone wolf with wolf claw, storm shield and melta bombs, my new favorite sub 100pt unit!
MWHistorian wrote: I was in the US cavalry and we didn't ride around the desert on horses with big cowboy hats, sabers and handlebar mustaches. I didn't use my Cowboy Cav Jeep with the Cowboy Indian Fighter Machine gun.
The viking theme was taken in a silly direction. Light hearted is good. Silly is not when the game isn't supposed to be silly.
You were apparently not in the US Air Cav with their Blackhawks, Apaches, Kiowas, etc.
MWHistorian wrote: I was in the US cavalry and we didn't ride around the desert on horses with big cowboy hats, sabers and handlebar mustaches. I didn't use my Cowboy Cav Jeep with the Cowboy Indian Fighter Machine gun.
The viking theme was taken in a silly direction. Light hearted is good. Silly is not when the game isn't supposed to be silly.
You were apparently not in the US Air Cav with their Blackhawks, Apaches, Kiowas, etc.
Cowboy hats are still a thing for them as well.
Spoiler:
But we don't ware them into battle was my point. And having all the helicopters named after Indian nations is a theme. Themes are cool. Having helicopter pilots with feathered headresses and bows and arrows in battle would be silly. There's a line. GW crossed it.
Anpu42 wrote: No our Special Forces rode into battle wearing the head wrap, armed with M4s, Tomahawks and body armor during the opening stages of the Afghan war.
M-4's and tomahawks are actually a really great, practical combination. I had a tanto during both my deployments. I didn't ware hakama and a back banner though.
This new SW dex comes off feeling too much like bad G-Gundam stuff.
Anpu42 wrote: No our Special Forces rode into battle wearing the head wrap, armed with M4s, Tomahawks and body armor during the opening stages of the Afghan war.
M-4's and tomahawks are actually a really great, practical combination. I had a tanto during both my deployments. I didn't ware hakama and a back banner though.
This new SW dex comes off feeling too much like bad G-Gundam stuff.
That is because we got all of that Dreadnaught Stuff, We now do the Mecha Scene better than Tau
Anpu42 wrote: No our Special Forces rode into battle wearing the head wrap, armed with M4s, Tomahawks and body armor during the opening stages of the Afghan war.
Keep in mind this was also so that they didn't stick out like a sore thumb, to blend in with Afghan natives and not be gigantic immediate targets letting everyone know US special forces were there, in the earliest stages of a conflict by a very tiny number of US personnel amongst much larger Afghan forces, and they weren't executing cavalry charges with tomahawks, they were acting as mounted infantry.
Anpu42 wrote: No our Special Forces rode into battle wearing the head wrap, armed with M4s, Tomahawks and body armor during the opening stages of the Afghan war.
Keep in mind this was also so that they didn't stick out like a sore thumb, to blend in with Afghan natives and not be gigantic immediate targets letting everyone know US special forces were there, in the earliest stages of a conflict by a very tiny number of US personnel amongst much larger Afghan forces, and they weren't executing cavalry charges with tomahawks, they were acting as mounted infantry.
Subsequent operations were not conducted thusly.
From what I understand the ANA are still conducting Mounted Operations. It was mostly just a statement that there is nothing "Silly" about "Calvary Operations" in High Tech Battlefields.
We still have Fixed Bayonet Charges, well the Brits do, in 2003, Basra, Royal Scotts Guards.
The bayonet charge was a very isolated incident at extremely close quarters against significantly less well trained and equipped enemy forces, and we know about it exactly because such actions are so rare.
The ANA conducts mounted operations because it can't get fuel to half the country nor keep vehicles in order, and they're not riding the horses on to enemy positions as far as I'm aware, the horses are transport as opposed to battle mount. Afghanistan is also probably one of, it not the, most primal places on earth with probably less effective infrastructure than any other nation on earth.
Vaktathi wrote: The bayonet charge was a very isolated incident at extremely close quarters against significantly less well trained and equipped enemy forces, and we know about it exactly because such actions are so rare.
The ANA conducts mounted operations because it can't get fuel to half the country nor keep vehicles in order, and they're not riding the horses on to enemy positions as far as I'm aware, the horses are transport as opposed to battle mount. Afghanistan is also probably one of, it not the, most primal places on earth with probably less effective infrastructure than any other nation on earth.
True, Afghanistan doe remind me of a Deathworld, just like Detroit reminds me of cities of Death.
I must not have missed the day in BUDS when we learned to ride horses... GW jumped the shark a long time ago with SW. I don't ever want new releases or a new codex for my army again. I don't know how they could get any more ridiculous with it but I'm sure they'll find a way.
Incidentally, he's also the biggest badass to ever badass!
edit: that's Theodore Roosevelt, in case the picture isn't clear. Which it's really not, I guess...
That was also a hundred years ago.
And 40k is 37,000+ years from now.
I mean, if you don't like it you don't like it, fair enough. I don't see it as all that silly when put in context of the rest of the universe around it though.
Yea, a levitating wolf drawn sled doesn't exactly strike "battle ready vehicle". First off, it's too damn tall to actually attack much of anything. Second, are the Wolves for show or do the sleds rockets not work? Are you either riding a busted vehicle or wanting to look and be ineffective in combat with dogs pulling it? It doesn't work in a game with rail cannons, plasma guns, and what not.
Logan Grimnar doesn't strike a "Teddy Roosevelt" chord. Maybe Herald Deathwolf does as I always liked TCAV (I started 40k when old wolves hit, so I was part of that problem).
As an SM player who sometimes uses the SW codex for "tac marines with CCWs", "nice devastators" and "different assault marines" I like the basic rules that I've seen. - The change to grey hunters is good - 1 ppm more with chainsword, no free second special weapon, but I still prefer 2 specials to 1 special and a heavy and it was a reasonable change. - The change to Long Fangs is good. - I like the new blood claws, usable now - I like the wolf scouts. Cheaper sniper rifles and optional camo cloaks. - I like the dreadnoughts. - I like the cheaper skyclaws and multiple specials. - I like having a termie leader option for the squads, that's really cool. - Rune priests are much better although daemonology... srsly.
- I really dislike the new codex layout. My bookmarked pdf minimises this substantially but it's still silly. - Murder stuff is ridiculous. - Blizzard/frost stuff... srsly ; / - Hover longboats pulled by wolves -_-
- I'm still unsure on the flyer. - Won't comment on the characters.
GW writing more balanced rules is a great thing. There are some very obvious changes that should have been patched into the previous codex long ago. I won't comment much on the fluff other than that I think some of it is detrimental to the game as a whole. Chances are I'll run mytheorycraft my Blood Ravens as SWs once army builder (or battlescribe if needs be) is updated and I can play with some lists.
TheKbob wrote: Outside of the almost "so plain it's silly" name of Herald, him and Ulrik are probably the two HQs I'd take. Solid TWC lord and a good buff HQ. If you could still make a true Bearlord, I'd go for that and Urlik.
You should probably check your codex, he isnt named Herald.
He is named Harald - a nordic name that you americans probably cant even pronounce
MWHistorian wrote: I was in the US cavalry and we didn't ride around the desert on horses with big cowboy hats, sabers and handlebar mustaches. I didn't use my Cowboy Cav Jeep with the Cowboy Indian Fighter Machine gun.
The viking theme was taken in a silly direction. Light hearted is good. Silly is not when the game isn't supposed to be silly.
So you're saying we need to take this entirely fictional futuristic setting in which the ruler of mankind is a corpse and daemons can pop out of thin air much more seriously? Space wolves are based upon a bastardised interpretation of pseudo-Viking-Nordic culture by a group of 20 year old geeks. I honestly wouldn't read too much into it. There is nothing realistic about 40k. The elite soldiers of mankind paint their armour in bright primary colours. Makes absolutely no sense, but it's cool anyway. If you don't like the new models fine, but any justification of this on the grounds of them being silly or unrealistic makes no sense when placed in the context of the 40k universe.
No one is saying it should be taken seriously either.
However, there is a very distinct difference between Murderfang with his murder claws suffering from murderlust from the planet Omnicide, and say, the fluff behind Wazdakka, which manages to be gritty, silly, have some fun references, and actually forms a great story for a generally silly race.
As has been said before, Space Wolves should be Space Marines with a nordic flavour, not Wolf Vikings with a Space Marine flavour.
MWHistorian wrote: I was in the US cavalry and we didn't ride around the desert on horses with big cowboy hats, sabers and handlebar mustaches. I didn't use my Cowboy Cav Jeep with the Cowboy Indian Fighter Machine gun.
The viking theme was taken in a silly direction. Light hearted is good. Silly is not when the game isn't supposed to be silly.
So you're saying we need to take this entirely fictional futuristic setting in which the ruler of mankind is a corpse and daemons can pop out of thin air much more seriously? Space wolves are based upon a bastardised interpretation of pseudo-Viking-Nordic culture by a group of 20 year old geeks. I honestly wouldn't read too much into it. There is nothing realistic about 40k. The elite soldiers of mankind paint their armour in bright primary colours. Makes absolutely no sense, but it's cool anyway. If you don't like the new models fine, but any justification of this on the grounds of them being silly or unrealistic makes no sense when placed in the context of the 40k universe.
I can suspend disbelief and accept that in the setting chainswords work well, and melee combat is necessary and effective. I can suspend disbelief and accept that in the setting guardsmen are sent to their death by the billions with poor armour and weapons. I cannot suspend disbelief when wolves are used to pull a suspensor chariot into battle next to a guy named murderface in the midst of his murderlust with his murderfriends as bricks soar deftly overhead. It's even worse than midichlorians and jar-jar binks.
Nuwisha wrote: I had 30 wulfen models... for my 13th Company Army.
I miss that army, so many fleas.
I would say make them all Wolf Guard lead by a Wolf Priest with a Stone, that should give the same affect. Maybe replace the Bolt Pistol with Power Weapons.
I'm just going with Blood Claws. The old fluff for Wulfen had Wolf Priests leading them most of the time, so my Wolf Priest leading them makes perfect sense. Some of the models still have Bolt Pistols, which is all Blood Claws get (unless you give them special weapons, naturally). Murderous rampaging melee unit led by a Wolf Priest? Sounds like Wulfen!
Also, for Logan Wing fans, the Champions of Fenris supplement has most of the answers you need. The Company of the Great Wolf detachment has 0 mandatory troops, and 8 elite slots (2 of which are mandatory). You still don't get ObSec, but all your Wolf Guard do get a free +1 WS.
That it a murderous idea, a pack of 15 bloodclaws lead by one wolfpriest with the wulfen stone, they are 60 attacks s5 on the charge, and if you joint one wolfguard with a wolfclaw, you have 3 attacks s6 ap3 shred more on the charge, a true blender, a little expensibe, maybe, but they are space marines at the end, i mean Sv3+, ATSKNF, S4 with rage
They'd only get S5 with Ragnar, with his War Howl A.K.A. Furious Charge special rule - but yeah I agree, that coming out of a flying assault skimmer is going to be absolutely beast.
I've also thought about a Thunderlord with twin Wolf Claws and the Armour of Russ. 2+/4++, ST 5 (going up to 6 with WC's in CC) T 5, W 4. I think he gets 7 ST 6 AP 3 (5 base with TW) attacks on the charge...with re-roll wounds, and the armour of russ reduces all challenge opponents Init by -5...Bit more expensive than Harald or Ragnar though.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Random Dude wrote:I like Tehjonny's sig. At first I wanted to play Space Wolves because of the Viking aspect, but now they're just silly.
Tehjonny's sig wrote:Back in the day, we were epic Space Vikings with horns, and beer, and stupid mockney accents, and we didn't have any truck with this flying around like a pansy shizzle. We certainly didn't surround ourselves with mangy animals.
I for one DON'T like Tehjonny's sig and I'm super happy that this sort of attitude has been completely $#*% on by this codex.
"Back in the Day" there was never any mention of this "both feet on the ground" nonsense.... that was some crap brought in with 3rd Ed... which any old school 40K player knows was "The Day 40K Died"... or "Worst Edition Ever"
"Back in the Day" ..... Russ had 2 pet wolves.... so I guess Spaces Wolves have always surrounded themselves with mangy animals.
I'm only 28, so for me 3rd is 'back in the day'. I hope our differing experiences of this subjective life are acceptable to you. It's not an attitude dude, it's just a little joke. Some may think it isn't a very good one, which is fine.
I agree with most of what you've said. The codex is generally very solid, and the fliers are a real boost.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yonan wrote: As an SM player who sometimes uses the SW codex for "tac marines with CCWs", "nice devastators" and "different assault marines" I like the basic rules that I've seen.
- The change to grey hunters is good - 1 ppm more with chainsword, no free second special weapon, but I still prefer 2 specials to 1 special and a heavy and it was a reasonable change.
- The change to Long Fangs is good.
- I like the new blood claws, usable now
- I like the wolf scouts. Cheaper sniper rifles and optional camo cloaks.
- I like the dreadnoughts.
- I like the cheaper skyclaws and multiple specials.
- I like having a termie leader option for the squads, that's really cool.
- Rune priests are much better although daemonology... srsly.
- I really dislike the new codex layout. My bookmarked pdf minimises this substantially but it's still silly.
- Murder stuff is ridiculous.
- Blizzard/frost stuff... srsly ; /
- Hover longboats pulled by wolves -_-
- I'm still unsure on the flyer.
- Won't comment on the characters.
GW writing more balanced rules is a great thing. There are some very obvious changes that should have been patched into the previous codex long ago. I won't comment much on the fluff other than that I think some of it is detrimental to the game as a whole. Chances are I'll run mytheorycraft my Blood Ravens as SWs once army builder (or battlescribe if needs be) is updated and I can play with some lists.
The Daemonology powers are split into two tables, one for manifestation and another that is basically 'anti-daemons'. I think you suffer increased penalties for using the actual chaos table as a non-chaos affiliated psyker, or something like that...but that's only a vague notion based on something I read a few nights ago.
MWHistorian wrote: I was in the US cavalry and we didn't ride around the desert on horses with big cowboy hats, sabers and handlebar mustaches. I didn't use my Cowboy Cav Jeep with the Cowboy Indian Fighter Machine gun.
The viking theme was taken in a silly direction. Light hearted is good. Silly is not when the game isn't supposed to be silly.
So you're saying we need to take this entirely fictional futuristic setting in which the ruler of mankind is a corpse and daemons can pop out of thin air much more seriously? Space wolves are based upon a bastardised interpretation of pseudo-Viking-Nordic culture by a group of 20 year old geeks. I honestly wouldn't read too much into it. There is nothing realistic about 40k. The elite soldiers of mankind paint their armour in bright primary colours. Makes absolutely no sense, but it's cool anyway. If you don't like the new models fine, but any justification of this on the grounds of them being silly or unrealistic makes no sense when placed in the context of the 40k universe.
I can suspend disbelief and accept that in the setting chainswords work well, and melee combat is necessary and effective. I can suspend disbelief and accept that in the setting guardsmen are sent to their death by the billions with poor armour and weapons. I cannot suspend disbelief when wolves are used to pull a suspensor chariot into battle next to a guy named murderface in the midst of his murderlust with his murderfriends as bricks soar deftly overhead. It's even worse than midichlorians and jar-jar binks.
Yes, I've never understood the "well 40k isn't realistic so this green bunny rabbit towing a B-29 through honey is totally fine" argument.
MWHistorian wrote: Yes, I've never understood the "well 40k isn't realistic so this green bunny rabbit towing a B-29 through honey is totally fine" argument.
I would actually field that. It would be glorious.
MWHistorian wrote: Yes, I've never understood the "well 40k isn't realistic so this green bunny rabbit towing a B-29 through honey is totally fine" argument.
I would actually field that. It would be glorious.
Grey Knights will be out soon so you'll have your chance! If not them then certainly Blood Angels shortly after.
Sky Claws are back, cheaper and better than ever with a dedicated Wolf Guard leader
Wolf Guard jump packs area cheaper than ever... only 3ppm !!!!
We have... not one, but two Space Wolf unique fliers
One of those fliers is a "Dedicated Transport" to just about every unit in the book (so no FOC issues)
Only marine army to have stand alone drop pods
Still have Land Speeders (which everyone seemed to ignore during the whole "both feet on the ground" era)
Terminators can now TELEPORT ?!?!
Chapter Master now rides a hover chariot!!!
Looks interesting.
Nevertheless, it will require a decent player to get some milage out of it in a competitive setting.
Sky Claws are back, cheaper and better than ever with a dedicated Wolf Guard leader
Wolf Guard jump packs area cheaper than ever... only 3ppm !!!!
We have... not one, but two Space Wolf unique fliers
One of those fliers is a "Dedicated Transport" to just about every unit in the book (so no FOC issues)
Only marine army to have stand alone drop pods
Still have Land Speeders (which everyone seemed to ignore during the whole "both feet on the ground" era)
Terminators can now TELEPORT ?!?!
Chapter Master now rides a hover chariot!!!
Looks interesting.
Nevertheless, it will require a decent player to get some milage out of it in a competitive setting.
True, but 10 with 2 Flamers, Power Weapon and a WGPL armed with a Wolf Claw and Power Fist are 230 points
Sky Claws are back, cheaper and better than ever with a dedicated Wolf Guard leader
Wolf Guard jump packs area cheaper than ever... only 3ppm !!!!
We have... not one, but two Space Wolf unique fliers
One of those fliers is a "Dedicated Transport" to just about every unit in the book (so no FOC issues)
Only marine army to have stand alone drop pods
Still have Land Speeders (which everyone seemed to ignore during the whole "both feet on the ground" era)
Terminators can now TELEPORT ?!?!
Chapter Master now rides a hover chariot!!!
Looks interesting.
Nevertheless, it will require a decent player to get some milage out of it in a competitive setting.
True, but 10 with 2 Flamers, Power Weapon and a WGPL armed with a Wolf Claw and Power Fist are 230 points
This unit needs a transport.
Necrons has a decent unit at this pt level:
10 Immortals w/ Night Scythe - 230 pts.
Sky Claws are back, cheaper and better than ever with a dedicated Wolf Guard leader
Wolf Guard jump packs area cheaper than ever... only 3ppm !!!!
We have... not one, but two Space Wolf unique fliers
One of those fliers is a "Dedicated Transport" to just about every unit in the book (so no FOC issues)
Only marine army to have stand alone drop pods
Still have Land Speeders (which everyone seemed to ignore during the whole "both feet on the ground" era)
Terminators can now TELEPORT ?!?!
Chapter Master now rides a hover chariot!!!
Looks interesting.
Nevertheless, it will require a decent player to get some milage out of it in a competitive setting.
True, but 10 Skyclaws with 2 Flamers, Power Weapon and a WGPL armed with a Wolf Claw and Power Fist are 230 points
This unit needs a transport.
Necrons has a decent unit at this pt level:
10 Immortals w/ Night Scythe - 230 pts.
So here's something else I just noticed (my apologies, I have not been following 40k release as much these days)- I see there was a super deluxe Space Wolf codex being sold for $250!? ONE CODEX for two and a half times the cost of the main rule book!? That's insanity! There's no way it would s---wait a second, they all sold!?
Honest question: who buys these things?? I don't get it. I'm not trying to be rude to anyone, I just can't fathom buying a book that will last for a couple of years, largely rehashed from a previous version, and at that price point. Maybe the opinions I've heard about this are true- maybe GW will be able to jettison most of their customers and maintain a super elite purchasing group that keeps them in business indefinitely. I guess I can't really blame them
Admittedly the Wolfy Wolferson edition does come with the supplement included, as well as the painting guide, plus art prints and some coins.
The value of the books is $160. Effectively, you're paying $140 for 6 coins, a few art prints, and a case to put them in.
Yes, I agree, its ridiculous. You could knock $100 off the price and I'd still hesitate, seeing as the codices and supplements are hilariously overpriced to begin with.
I would've bought the wolf guard edition if it had been the price of the long fang edition. How about $180 for a codex and a painting guide? No wonder the long fang is still available.
Toofast wrote: I would've bought the wolf guard edition if it had been the price of the long fang edition. How about $180 for a codex and a painting guide? No wonder the long fang is still available.
Not in Australia it's not. both versions of collector editions sold out day 1 of pre-order
Toofast wrote: I would've bought the wolf guard edition if it had been the price of the long fang edition. How about $180 for a codex and a painting guide? No wonder the long fang is still available.
Not even if they threw in a copy of Dreadfleet? 133 copies of the Long Fang left in the UK, can't see them selling for a long time. Then again I was amazed that the Wolf Guard sold out, and can't understand why anyone would buy limited edition anything, especially with the increased release pace.
I had a Long Fang and a Wolf Guard edition sell when I picked up the Codex on Saturday last week. I almost laughed out loud when the Wolf Guard buyer said "This had better be worth the $300 I paid..."
Andilus Greatsword wrote: I had a Long Fang and a Wolf Guard edition sell when I picked up the Codex on Saturday last week. I almost laughed out loud when the Wolf Guard buyer said "This had better be worth the $300 I paid..."
You almost laughed out loud at that person while some other person was laughing at you for paying $60 CAD for your book
Andilus Greatsword wrote: I had a Long Fang and a Wolf Guard edition sell when I picked up the Codex on Saturday last week. I almost laughed out loud when the Wolf Guard buyer said "This had better be worth the $300 I paid..."
You almost laughed out loud at that person while some other person was laughing at you for paying $60 CAD for your book
Nah, everyone else had already bought it. Although yeah, $60 is pretty damn steep at this point, but at least I didn't expect that paying even more would make the cost more worthwhile.
$240 for a mediocre painting guide, a book of maybe semi competitive formations and 6 coins didn't sound like a deal to you? You are obviously not GW's target market.
DaddyWarcrimes wrote: I'd call my reaction "underwhelmed". The new format is wretched. The editing is as poor as usual.
The loss of a purchasable Eternal Warrior turns our beat stick HQs into JV scrubs like Chaos Lords.
This along with the loss of Mark of the Wulfin, wolf tooth necklace, and wolf tail talisman make me the most upset. In my opinion any HQ who isn't Eternal Warrior or a force multiplier is pretty much useless. Whose going to take a generic wolf lord when he can get instagibed by so many things.
I'm not disappointed in the Codex. It seems like a weel constructed and interesting collection of rules. But I won't be using it for my SWs, I'll need to look into other rules. It just doesn't feel esoteric enough to me.
I think that we should be careful about giving our characters I1 weapons now, and given we can get rending from the Thunderwolf now we get pseudo AP2 at initiative anyway.
I'm thinking that my Wolf Lord configuration will be wolf claw, storm shield, runic armour, thunderwolf. That's 210 points, but he delivers 6-7 strength 6 AP3 rending attacks with shred while defending his 4 T5 wounds with 2+/3++ saves.
Certainly the loss of Eternal Warrior hurts, but what's done is done.
However the number of things that can instagib a T5 model have also decreased for the most part. There just isn't as much S10 on the board anymore and depending on how the psychic phase went librarians may not have enough warp dice to charge their force weapons.
Also DPs dont get to rock the 3+ inv save, so for myself I dont have an issue with the lost of purchasable EW.
Paradigm wrote: I'm not at all disappointed. We got cost drops on anything that needed it, the new units are very cool, the changes to GH are neither unexpected nor unwarranted, and to say they've been reduced to 'just' tactical marines is not true at all.
The codex seems to be balanced internally and externally, it fixes a lot of issues and doesn't change how the army plays. what more can you ask?
Agreed. Unfortunately, my FLGS doesn't have the codex in stock, so I'll probably have to wait another week.
You're dang right!
I'm gonna have devestator Grav-turions pouring our of two of them, along with Tigirius and Severin Loth, and maybe two 10 man squads of legion of the damn arriving in pods too just so I can drop them in turn one.
Jayden63 wrote: However the number of things that can instagib a T5 model have also decreased for the most part. There just isn't as much S10 on the board anymore and depending on how the psychic phase went librarians may not have enough warp dice to charge their force weapons.
Also DPs dont get to rock the 3+ inv save, so for myself I dont have an issue with the lost of purchasable EW.
Vaktathi wrote: Am I the only one massively amused by the idea that if an HQ, even at T5, isn't an Eternal Warrior, it's just not good enough?
Yeah... in my case it's annoying because I tooled up my Wolf Lord as a character assassin, but now he can't go toe-to-toe with the best of them. I'm thinking now he'll be a heavy infantry killer with a squad of Termies, with Arjac soaking up challenges. I'm thinking Runic or Terminator Armour + Black Death + Storm Shield + Wulfen Stone. That's 210pts with up to 9 S7 AP2 attacks on the charge.
Vaktathi wrote: Am I the only one massively amused by the idea that if an HQ, even at T5, isn't an Eternal Warrior, it's just not good enough?
Yeah... in my case it's annoying because I tooled up my Wolf Lord as a character assassin, but now he can't go toe-to-toe with the best of them. I'm thinking now he'll be a heavy infantry killer with a squad of Termies, with Arjac soaking up challenges. I'm thinking Runic or Terminator Armour + Black Death + Storm Shield + Wulfen Stone. That's 210pts with up to 9 S7 AP2 attacks on the charge.
How is he still not a character assassin. I can count the number of guys on one hand that can kill a T5 4 wound model at initiative. Let alone one with a 2+/3++ save. And once your talking S10, unwieldy AP2 weapons that number drops to 2.
I find that people are just too afraid of instagibbing. T5 is a real game changer when it comes to what one should be afraid to field.
A lot of people have it easy playing SW and yet some people are complaining the loss of Eternal Warrior? After all, there are a few codices that don't have Eternal Warrior at all, and have a harder time playing.
Vaktathi wrote: Am I the only one massively amused by the idea that if an HQ, even at T5, isn't an Eternal Warrior, it's just not good enough?
Yeah... in my case it's annoying because I tooled up my Wolf Lord as a character assassin, but now he can't go toe-to-toe with the best of them. I'm thinking now he'll be a heavy infantry killer with a squad of Termies, with Arjac soaking up challenges. I'm thinking Runic or Terminator Armour + Black Death + Storm Shield + Wulfen Stone. That's 210pts with up to 9 S7 AP2 attacks on the charge.
How is he still not a character assassin. I can count the number of guys on one hand that can kill a T5 4 wound model at initiative. Let alone one with a 2+/3++ save. And once your talking S10, unwieldy AP2 weapons that number drops to 2.
I find that people are just too afraid of instagibbing. T5 is a real game changer when it comes to what one should be afraid to field.
If I ran my lord on a Thunderwolf, then I would not be afraid of ID, but I don't (simply because I've had the model since 3rd edition). I have to worry more about artillery, stray lascannons, etc and now powerfists and MCs. That said, I'm somewhat sad about this, but I'm totally going to adapt.
I will likely run my TWC a lot more now though.
Davor wrote: A lot of people have it easy playing SW and yet some people are complaining the loss of Eternal Warrior? After all, there are a few codices that don't have Eternal Warrior at all, and have a harder time playing.
Try playing Tyranids
Hey, I play Nids as well, and I definitely feel the pain. Stupid, stupid, stupid Codex...
Yonan wrote: I'm also amused that SWs now get to bypass eternal warrior. "Not so eternal warrior" doesn't quite have the same ring to it.
What, helfrost? No no no no, that is ensuring the EW. Helfrost states that they instantly encase their targets in blocks of ice and if they cant break free they are entombed forever aka eternally. Helfrost just makes sure that the EW character will be eternal. That dudes might die one day, but eternally encased in ice? He will be forever!
pm713 wrote: I'm curious what was the issue in 5th?
Very powerful vehicle armies, tournaments often just had razorback spam and rifledreads and it was basically two armies just shooting at each other with cheap attack vehicles.
Unless you were one of the ones without such things, like orks who before IG came out with their S10 missles and vendetta had Nob Biker spam, CSM were forced to make due with plague marines and DP's and oblits (yeah not much has changed there, just add heldrakes). IG had chimera spam, Nids were just screwed.
pm713 wrote: I'm curious what was the issue in 5th?
The ALMIGHTY POWERFUL SPACE MARINES or Grey Knights, hiding and cowering in vehicles for 4 or so turns, and then finally on the last turn they come out to play. Actually no they didn't come out to play. They just stayed in the vehicles.
It basically went pew pew, nobody does much because they are too scared to move and then LAST TURN, vehicle rush to claim objectives. Does not make for a fun game when people need to win with plastic toy soldiers.
pm713 wrote: I'm curious what was the issue in 5th?
Very powerful vehicle armies, tournaments often just had razorback spam and rifledreads.
Yeah sounds much better than now. *sarcasm*
In comparison, yeah, actually.
The gap between GKs and other armies was far smaller than the gap between TauDar or WS spam and other armies.
And Riflemen? Riflemen? Ha, that's a good one!
Triple Psyflemen was a thing, sure. Riflemen... seriously, good one man. Got me crackin' up over here.
I'm not sure Razorback spam was ever a problem. An annoying build, sure, but a problem on the scale of WS spam? Nah, I don't think so.
The problems for 5th were OP Grey knights, Space Wolves and (on release) BA.
Besides, I never said 5th was perfect. Just a damn sight better than the mess that was 6th or 7th. Reminding you all that Daemon factory either is or was a thing. But this is OT, Space Wolf discussion go.
My problem with 5th was if dice were going the right way Vehicles never died. One I watch a single Rhino take about 20 Las-Cannon Glances/Pens during a game and all it lost was one of its Storm Bolters
Anpu42 wrote: My problem with 5th was if dice were going the right way Vehicles never died. One I watch a single Rhino take about 20 Las-Cannon Glances/Pens during a game and all it lost was one of its Storm Bolters
Vehicles died just fine, yeah you could get instances like the above, but then you can also get the same thing with anything else, that last Sergeant that refuses to fail his 3+ save or that Grot you roll half a dozen 1's to wound, etc. Even running relatively extreme tank-spam lists in 5th, it wasn't at all uncommon to lose huge numbers of them, and I can recall more than one game with 20+ dead tanks on the field. Especially with the types of armies which were prevalent at the time (e.g. SW gunlines with 20+ S8/9 48" range guns, etc).
pm713 wrote: I'm curious what was the issue in 5th?
Very powerful vehicle armies, tournaments often just had razorback spam and rifledreads and it was basically two armies just shooting at each other with cheap attack vehicles.
Unless you were one of the ones without such things, like orks who before IG came out with their S10 missles and vendetta had Nob Biker spam, CSM were forced to make due with plague marines and DP's and oblits (yeah not much has changed there, just add heldrakes). IG had chimera spam, Nids were just screwed.
Hey, at least you could get a game done in well under 4 hours in 5th... hell, set-up in 6th edition always takes at least an hour...
pm713 wrote: I'm curious what was the issue in 5th?
Very powerful vehicle armies, tournaments often just had razorback spam and rifledreads and it was basically two armies just shooting at each other with cheap attack vehicles.
Unless you were one of the ones without such things, like orks who before IG came out with their S10 missles and vendetta had Nob Biker spam, CSM were forced to make due with plague marines and DP's and oblits (yeah not much has changed there, just add heldrakes). IG had chimera spam, Nids were just screwed.
Hey, at least you could get a game done in well under 4 hours in 5th... hell, set-up in 6th edition always takes at least an hour...
Oh that's very true, I'm just pointing out the issues as he asked about.
I'm delighted with it! There was a lot of rumours that boded ill for us and they weren't true. Grey Hunters didn't lose 2 ccw which would have taken all the fun out of them for me. Ok so we have to pay a few more points for hunters and wg combi-weapons, and no longer get ridiculously cheap hb razorbacks but I'm ok with GW attempting to balance undercosted units and weapons, its more than offset by the fact that they've now made bloodclaws affordable. Thunderwolves@40pt basic aren't such a points sink now either. Sane points cost for equipping wolf guard with jump packs, bikes, and th/ss. The way I see it, It's opened up a load of options for army building.
One thing Iu wasn't too impressed with it is the aesthetics of the new units. Bjorn and the ven dread are fine. Murderfang would look fine too except I'll be covering that silly exposed head. I'd prefer to convert a Storm Raven than use the flying bricks they gave us, and as for Santa's sled, as much as I love thunderwolves, methings I'll be convering my own Logan Grimnar...
The Home Nuggeteer wrote: Come on dont complain about models you cannot use, i lost marbo and the model works fine as a veteran sergeant, just be happy you lost wargear and rules, not special characters.
RIP Marbo... But seriously I don't have a problem with the new codex. Although I don't play them myself, I've looked through it.
pm713 wrote: I'm curious what was the issue in 5th?
Very powerful vehicle armies, tournaments often just had razorback spam and rifledreads and it was basically two armies just shooting at each other with cheap attack vehicles.
Unless you were one of the ones without such things, like orks who before IG came out with their S10 missles and vendetta had Nob Biker spam, CSM were forced to make due with plague marines and DP's and oblits (yeah not much has changed there, just add heldrakes). IG had chimera spam, Nids were just screwed.
Hey, at least you could get a game done in well under 4 hours in 5th... hell, set-up in 6th edition always takes at least an hour...
Oh that's very true, I'm just pointing out the issues as he asked about.
Take this with a grain of salt, but 7th is my favorite edition yet. I don't seem to have an issue with time. I recently played in a tournament at a local FLGS and it was 1850. We had 2 hour time limits (not counting deployment), and I had no trouble finishing every game through the 6th turn (if applicable). Maybe that's because it was a tournament setting and people tend to have lean lists. I could see where some of the demon summoning lists could be very time consuming, but I guess those lists don't make it to the tournament meta... or at least not yet.
As far as the SW Codex... I am not traditionally a SW player, but this codex has inspired me to become one. I have a couple of really cool builds in my head that I am going to start collecting. I think there is a lot of good stuff coming out of this book, as well as from the supplement. I think they did a good job on bringing sub-par units up to snuff (thunderwolves), and bringing some of the undercosted units back into alignment (grey hunters). Jury is still out on the Dreadnoughts, as I'm just not confident in them yet, but I really didn't see anything that was off-putting. This is coming from a perspective of someone who doesn't have an invalidated build though, so I can understand the disappointment.
Vaktathi wrote: Am I the only one massively amused by the idea that if an HQ, even at T5, isn't an Eternal Warrior, it's just not good enough?
Yeah... in my case it's annoying because I tooled up my Wolf Lord as a character assassin, but now he can't go toe-to-toe with the best of them. I'm thinking now he'll be a heavy infantry killer with a squad of Termies, with Arjac soaking up challenges. I'm thinking Runic or Terminator Armour + Black Death + Storm Shield + Wulfen Stone. That's 210pts with up to 9 S7 AP2 attacks on the charge.
How is he still not a character assassin. I can count the number of guys on one hand that can kill a T5 4 wound model at initiative. Let alone one with a 2+/3++ save. And once your talking S10, unwieldy AP2 weapons that number drops to 2.
I find that people are just too afraid of instagibbing. T5 is a real game changer when it comes to what one should be afraid to field.
If I ran my lord on a Thunderwolf, then I would not be afraid of ID, but I don't (simply because I've had the model since 3rd edition). I have to worry more about artillery, stray lascannons, etc and now powerfists and MCs. That said, I'm somewhat sad about this, but I'm totally going to adapt.
I will likely run my TWC a lot more now though.
Davor wrote: A lot of people have it easy playing SW and yet some people are complaining the loss of Eternal Warrior? After all, there are a few codices that don't have Eternal Warrior at all, and have a harder time playing.
Try playing Tyranids
Hey, I play Nids as well, and I definitely feel the pain. Stupid, stupid, stupid Codex...
Does anyone here is aware of the nerf to eternal warrior? you only need two wounds to instagid a eternalwarrior, so the wolves dindt have such a big lose here, in the past codex i always gave EW to my thunderw lord, but now that i am thinking about it i never make use of that, even fighting against necrons and theirs tachion arrows, thats why you give two wolf pets to the lord, this also shows why he is better to stay with a unit
nosferatu1001 wrote: Huh? What are you talking about? There is NO SUCH nerf to EW. None. Made up./
Helfrost is a pretty big nerf to eternal warrior.
This had nothing to do with helfrost, just saying "you only need two wounds to instagib an EW" - which veen if from Helfrost isnt true. You only need one, and some luck.
There are lot fewer models with EW these days than previous editions.
A model has to be hit, wounded, fail its save, fail FnP if it has it, as well as any rerolls it may have to those then has to fail a strength test.
so lets just assume you get to the part where the model has failed everything up to the strength test.
if you are strength 3 you fail on a 4,5,6
if you are strength 4 you fail on a 5,6
if you are strength 5 or higher you fail on a 6
most models with EW are at least strength 4, so on average you will not fail the helfrost until the model has already suffered 3 wounds. Many models that have EW and strength 4 are 3-4 wounds models so either you either were dieing anyways, or you lost out on a wound.
Of course Helfrost can get lucky and gib a model on the first fail, and it can also get "lucky" and never go off.
There are other items like this in the game, like hexrifles. Most people do not seem to fear them or even acknowledge they exist. Those have sniper and can be ap 2 and allocate their hits to a model in the unit via percision shot.
Honestly I would be more concerned about the strength/ap of helfrost being used against your units, and people trying for lucky removal of big MCs, than the chance it can end an EW model early.
TBH I find Hellfrost a bit underwhelming and I would never choose a Hellfrost weapon over another just because of that rule.
Like blaktoof says, the odds of it taking out a character are slim.
Perhaps I'd feel differently if there were MCs in my local meta... but there aren't
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I have no idea where that came from, or who in their right mind at 
