Back when the Digital only Sisters codex came out I wasn't too thrilled by what came out. As such I worked on a homebrew for the army. Because of the size and formatting of it I'm not going to paste into this post here, but rather you can find it here, or attached below.
What I'm looking for is input on how to update this further for 7th edition as well as some feedback on what I've got in there. I would like to point out that there is an error of ommission in this: I forgot to include Shield of Faith. I didn't change it from what was in the regular codex though: 6++/Adamantium Will.
I'm also trying to work out ways to differentiate the Major Orders a bit with something like Chapter Tactics to represent their different personalities. Any other suggestions are fine, but I'd like to try and restrict it to things that can be represented with actual models.
I'm slightly worried about leaving the Acts of Faith as one unit-one Act; that was the biggest failing of the 5e White Dwarf book and later digital books. It sticks every unit with a defined role instead of the flexibility of the 3e book's setup.
I tried to fix it in my (admittedly out of date and under-tested) Hereticus book with a system that rolls to randomly generate Faith Points (roll a die for each Faithful unit, 6+ to generate normally, 5+ for characters/Celestians/units with a Superior, reroll for a Simulacrum), which go into a central pool that can be used by any squad on a short menu of different Acts, each of which requires a Ld test to activate.
Beyond that, I'm a little weirded out by the Brazier of Holy Fire, simply on the grounds that you're never going to want to avoid using your one-shot flamer to keep a power weapon around on S3/I3 Sisters; a straight-up "power weapon that can be fired once per game as a flamer" would be easier to keep track of and more sensible. I'm unsure about the Praesidium; it was a Storm Shield that granted 4++ in the Hereticus book, I don't get where giving the Sisters of Battle a better Storm Shield fits flavour-wise or lore-wise. A Relic with the +1 A might fit better. I do get that it becomes a waste of space on characters that are running around with a 4++ from the Rosarius, but on top of that Sisters aren't supposed to be Space Marines, the 4++ stock on a Canoness feels a little too much like you're trying to make them Space Marines.
Beyond the Acts of Faith and such minor flavour concerns the biggest issues are a lack of unit options (I put the Sisters of Battle into a 3e-style Hereticus Codex with a Stormtrooper Regiment mini-list and an Inquisitorial mini-list to address the problem) and the lack of native flyers/AA (you may be able to find an old thread started by SisterSydney discussing native Sisters flyers), but those are sort of inherent in the medium if you want to do a dedicated Sisters of Battle book. The rest looks functional.
Uh, Zion? You realise that a Mantle is a kind of cloak, too, yes?
Why no ranged attack from the Sceptre of Vengeance? pout.
No Sarissa for a bolter-armed Canoness? The Rosarius does make sense though - I think the option for a Canoness without a Rosarius in the existing codices is a nod to the idea that not all "Canonesses" are actually Canonesses, some of them are Palatines or heroic Sister Superiors.
Giving the entire BSS access to Sarissas kind of invalidates priests a little, since the Sarissa does the same thing as one of the War Hymns.
I remember the old Immolator only let a single model fire from its top hatch, with two being reserved for the larger hatch on the Rhino. I think two fire points may make the Immolator a little too good when it comes to MSU spam lists.
Celestians - why not give their specialists access to melee weapons as well? A couple of extra power weapons in the squad wouldn't break things too badly, I don't think. Also, it feels a bit wrong for Blessed Ammunition and Holy Promethium to cost the same on a unit that can have up to ten bolters, but only up to three flamers.
I do agree with Rake about the Brazier. It's always been an odd weapon, and I'm no sure about it being a power weapon, to be honest... but then, I was never really convinced on using it as a close-combat weapon in the first place.
The Praesidium's an odd one. I hate the as-is rules for Storm Shields - They should count as a close-combat weapon, not deny you one! - but giving a flat attacks bonus to the whole squad has nasty implications.
Imagine this: A Sororitas Command Squad with a Hospitaller, a Canoness, and a Banner Bearer. The Canoness has a power weapon and a Praesidium. The Banner Bearer has the Sacred Banner of the Orders Militant. The Celestians all have Power Weapons and CCWs of one form or another. Oh, and Jacobus, for laughs.
You're looking at a unit that has what... Canoness 3 + 1 for charging, +1 for the Praesidum, +1 for the sacred Banner = six attacks on her own. Each Celestian then has 2 attacks, +1 for charging, +1 for two CCW, +1 for the Praesidium, +1 for the Sacred Banner = 6 attacks each. Seven attacks each if Raging.
You're looking at seventy power weapon attacks on the charge on a unit with rerolls to morale checks against LD10, with 3+/4++ saves, Feel no Pain, at WS4, rerolling to hit (and wound, with a second priest). The price tag? A mere 335-350 points. That doesn't even take a sizable dent out of a 1500 point list. You expect to pay about that much for an elite squad in most armies, and this isn't an elite squad, it's a death star.
The obvious answer would be to say that the Praesidium doesn't stack with the Sacred Banner, which merely dials it down to a 'reasonable' sixty attacks on the charge. The other options are to push the price of power weapons back up, to reduce the number of models you can have in a command squad, or simply to reduce the number of power weapons a command squad can take.
AnomanderRake wrote:I'm slightly worried about leaving the Acts of Faith as one unit-one Act; that was the biggest failing of the 5e White Dwarf book and later digital books. It sticks every unit with a defined role instead of the flexibility of the 3e book's setup. While I agree that a table would be stronger, I originally wrote this as a submission to GW to help maybe update the Sisters in the future so I had to practice some restraint. I don't think we should go quite go back to full on book keeping mode, but then again since Psykers generate tokens a lot like how we used to generate Faith Points, it might not be a bad idea.
I tried to fix it in my (admittedly out of date and under-tested) Hereticus book with a system that rolls to randomly generate Faith Points (roll a die for each Faithful unit, 6+ to generate normally, 5+ for characters/Celestians/units with a Superior, reroll for a Simulacrum), which go into a central pool that can be used by any squad on a short menu of different Acts, each of which requires a Ld test to activate. I really don't want to go back to random Faith Point generation. It's hard to balance and it swings violently towards the extremes a lot of the time making it more about luck that anything else.
Beyond that, I'm a little weirded out by the Brazier of Holy Fire, simply on the grounds that you're never going to want to avoid using your one-shot flamer to keep a power weapon around on S3/I3 Sisters; a straight-up "power weapon that can be fired once per game as a flamer" would be easier to keep track of and more sensible. You're right, and that's definitely on my list now. Should I double down and make it a Power Maul too?
I'm unsure about the Praesidium; it was a Storm Shield that granted 4++ in the Hereticus book, I don't get where giving the Sisters of Battle a better Storm Shield fits flavour-wise or lore-wise. A Relic with the +1 A might fit better. I do get that it becomes a waste of space on characters that are running around with a 4++ from the Rosarius, but on top of that Sisters aren't supposed to be Space Marines, the 4++ stock on a Canoness feels a little too much like you're trying to make them Space Marines. I agree now that the bonus attack is likely too much. Giving them limited access to a 3++ I don't think is though. However, giving the Canoness a Roasarius standard isn't trying to make her a Marine-lite, it's trying to rebalance and overpriced HQ without cutting her points by too much. Incorporating the 4++ into her rules makes her cheaper and gets the automatic upgrade for most players out of the way right off the bat.
Beyond the Acts of Faith and such minor flavour concerns the biggest issues are a lack of unit options (I put the Sisters of Battle into a 3e-style Hereticus Codex with a Stormtrooper Regiment mini-list and an Inquisitorial mini-list to address the problem) and the lack of native flyers/AA (you may be able to find an old thread started by SisterSydney discussing native Sisters flyers), but those are sort of inherent in the medium if you want to do a dedicated Sisters of Battle book. The rest looks functional. Lack of unit options came from an attempt to fix a codex, not necessarily add to it. It's all fine and dandy to start adding things, but when you're sending it into GW you have to have some restraint. Porting over some FW options should help round out some of the sticking points regarding options, but I'm not sure we really need to put something like Storm Troopers or Inquisition in the book when they have mini-codexes and an ally system that achieves the same thing, and probably better. Other options I'm not against looking at adding, but at the same tiem I also want to practice a little restraint and not go just adding things that we can't at least proxy reasonably. We have a dearth of models in our range, yes, but at the same time I don't want to require people to need to scratch build planes to be able to use options.
Furyou Miko wrote:Uh, Zion? You realise that a Mantle is a kind of cloak, too, yes? Nope, completely slipped my mind. Guess I'll add that to the list of "can't take with Jump Pack due to fire hazard".
Why no ranged attack from the Sceptre of Vengeance? pout. Because I never thought of one? If you have any ideas feel free to pitch them
No Sarissa for a bolter-armed Canoness? Good point. I've added it to my notes
The Rosarius does make sense though - I think the option for a Canoness without a Rosarius in the existing codices is a nod to the idea that not all "Canonesses" are actually Canonesses, some of them are Palatines or heroic Sister Superiors. It's possibly a nod (or just bad writing), sure, but honestly if you're being put in charge I'd kind of expect you to be given a badge of office like a Rosarius just to cement your position in the eyes of the church.
Giving the entire BSS access to Sarissas kind of invalidates priests a little, since the Sarissa does the same thing as one of the War Hymns. Sarissas are only available on Bolters, so it only mostly invalidates them. Seriously though, with the description being a kind of spike it sounded like the kind of thing that'd be perfect for stabbing into the joints of armor pretty easily, making it more likely to wound, but not more likely to hit. If you have recommendations either way I'm up for hearing them.
I remember the old Immolator only let a single model fire from its top hatch, with two being reserved for the larger hatch on the Rhino. I think two fire points may make the Immolator a little too good when it comes to MSU spam lists. Noted.
Celestians - why not give their specialists access to melee weapons as well? A couple of extra power weapons in the squad wouldn't break things too badly, I don't think. Because I hadn't thought of it? I made a note about it though
Also, it feels a bit wrong for Blessed Ammunition and Holy Promethium to cost the same on a unit that can have up to ten bolters, but only up to three flamers. Fair point. I take it this is strictly for Celestians then? Because BSS can take more of both.
I do agree with Rake about the Brazier. It's always been an odd weapon, and I'm no sure about it being a power weapon, to be honest... but then, I was never really convinced on using it as a close-combat weapon in the first place. I'm considering just making it a Power Maul with a Combi-Flamer honestly at this point.
The Praesidium's an odd one. I hate the as-is rules for Storm Shields - They should count as a close-combat weapon, not deny you one! - but giving a flat attacks bonus to the whole squad has nasty implications. [
Imagine this: A Sororitas Command Squad with a Hospitaller, a Canoness, and a Banner Bearer. The Canoness has a power weapon and a Praesidium. The Banner Bearer has the Sacred Banner of the Orders Militant. The Celestians all have Power Weapons and CCWs of one form or another. Oh, and Jacobus, for laughs.
You're looking at a unit that has what... Canoness 3 + 1 for charging, +1 for the Praesidum, +1 for the sacred Banner = six attacks on her own. Each Celestian then has 2 attacks, +1 for charging, +1 for two CCW, +1 for the Praesidium, +1 for the Sacred Banner = 6 attacks each. Seven attacks each if Raging.
You're looking at seventy power weapon attacks on the charge on a unit with rerolls to morale checks against LD10, with 3+/4++ saves, Feel no Pain, at WS4, rerolling to hit (and wound, with a second priest). The price tag? A mere 335-350 points. That doesn't even take a sizable dent out of a 1500 point list. You expect to pay about that much for an elite squad in most armies, and this isn't an elite squad, it's a death star.
The obvious answer would be to say that the Praesidium doesn't stack with the Sacred Banner, which merely dials it down to a 'reasonable' sixty attacks on the charge. The other options are to push the price of power weapons back up, to reduce the number of models you can have in a command squad, or simply to reduce the number of power weapons a command squad can take.
Actually the obvious answer is that it only gives a bonus attack to the wielder, not to the entire unit (I'm not even sure where you got the idea that the bonus carried over to the whole unit actually). The only models in your example who can take it are the Canoness, and if you upgrade a Palatine. The Celestians have access of up to 5 Special or Heavy Weapons.
I've taken some notes, and left my own feed back in yellow just because both posts were fairly long and I didn't want to spend all day trying to play with quote tags.
Automatically Appended Next Post: To add to the idea fest we're brewing here, I should probably add to it a look at a Sister's specific FOC like the other 7th ed books have.
Random Faith Point generation in the 1d6-per-turn the way the White Dwarf Codex did doesn't balance out, I did the random generation the way I did because it's hard to get extremes when you're rolling eight or ten dice. The Superior/character buff and the Simulacrum were there to try and mitigate the inherent randomness (and make it so that people couldn't easily game the system by including lots of cheap minimum units); I haven't done a lot of testing on the setup, but the math doesn't seem too worrisome.
The best idea I've seen for non-random Faith Point generation is one Faith Point per unit per turn with varying costs to activate on different Acts; it's more forgiving than the 3e system, but still allows the resources to be directed as needed instead of simply giving every unit a one-time buff. I almost don't care about how Faith Points are generated so long as we get back to the idea of a central pool of resources that can be directed to make part of the army stronger as you need them.
As to the list size I built my rules before there were Inquisition and Militarum Tempestus mini-Codexes; I'm almost inclined to go back and make a Codex: Minor Imperial Forces encompassing several mini-Codexes in one (Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle really don't have enough content to be full books, the Tempestus book could be expanded quite a bit, and it'd be a manageable format for making Deathwatch and Arbites rules. Maybe a special Navy Support allied detachment that gives you squadrons of planes?)
I get the idea that the bonus carries over to the unit from the line "and in addition models of the same unit of the bearer have +1 attack while the bearer is alive." in the description of the Praesidium Protectiva.
My suggestion for the Sarissa would actually be to drop it from the BSS as an option for the whole squad and keep it for elite units like Celestians and Dominions (but not Retributors because it's not their role).
The Sceptre of Vengeance, in its original rules, has... whoops. Actually, I was getting it confused with the Rod of Grace. ^^;
The Sceptre of Vengeance gave her S7 and an extra D12 armour penetration vs vehicles. It also had a -4 save modifier, equivalent to AP2 in the modern game (In comparison, the Blade of Admonition struck at S5 and only had a -2 armour save modifier).
Ah. Here's a point of interest: The original Praesidium Protectiva reflected attacks on a saving throw roll of a 6 if its unmodifiable save was used.
A Sisters-specific Force Organisation chart... hmm. Difficult.
How about something similar to the OHSF?
Compulsory:
1 HQ 1 Elites
Optional:
1 HQ 3 Elites
4 Troops
4 Fast Attack
3 Heavy Support
You trade two Compulsory Troops slots for a Compulsory elites slot and an extra Optional Fast Attack slot, to allow for more Celestians and Seraphim.
Furyou Miko wrote: I get the idea that the bonus carries over to the unit from the line "and in addition models of the same unit of the bearer have +1 attack while the bearer is alive." in the description of the Praesidium Protectiva.
My mistake, completely missed that re-reading it this morning. Yeah, definitely needs to be thinned down a bit. Not losing attacks for having it on the model that carries it is probably the max of what it should be.
Furyou Miko wrote: My suggestion for the Sarissa would actually be to drop it from the BSS as an option for the whole squad and keep it for elite units like Celestians and Dominions (but not Retributors because it's not their role).
I wouldn't consider Dominions an "elite" unit honestly, at least not as elite as Celestians, but I get the point you're making.
Furyou Miko wrote: The Sceptre of Vengeance, in its original rules, has... whoops. Actually, I was getting it confused with the Rod of Grace. ^^;
The Sceptre of Vengeance gave her S7 and an extra D12 armour penetration vs vehicles. It also had a -4 save modifier, equivalent to AP2 in the modern game (In comparison, the Blade of Admonition struck at S5 and only had a -2 armour save modifier).
I tried to capture the fluff and feel of the scepter as best I could without making it really OP. I thought I did an okay job with it, but if you have any ideas how to try and make closer to the original I'm all ears.
Furyou Miko wrote: Ah. Here's a point of interest: The original Praesidium Protectiva reflected attacks on a saving throw roll of a 6 if its unmodifiable save was used.
Wasn't that only armor saves?
Furyou Miko wrote: A Sisters-specific Force Organisation chart... hmm. Difficult.
How about something similar to the OHSF?
Compulsory:
1 HQ 1 Elites
Optional:
1 HQ 3 Elites
4 Troops
4 Fast Attack
3 Heavy Support
You trade two Compulsory Troops slots for a Compulsory elites slot and an extra Optional Fast Attack slot, to allow for more Celestians and Seraphim.
I can dig it. Especially since 7th drops the Dedicated Transport slot and fills it with the vehicles, so that's not a bad idea to give them a little extra room there (room to take a support Immolator for instance?).
Still trying to work on the Order Traits for the Major Orders (so the armies can feel more varied and interesting). I think a single USR per Order could work (like Stubborn on Argent Shroud), but at the same time I don't want to go too far and unbalance the army.
7th edition codices still have dedicated transport slots, they just also have the vehicle available as a fast attack choice.
Order Traits are a thorny subject, you should check out mine and SisterSydney's old homebrew threads on them. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/558743.page is the one that comes to mind, although in hindsight, I went a little crazy back there!
I think that the best thing for the Sceptre of Vengeance would be to make it an AP3 power maul with armourbane, or an AP2, Unwieldy Power Maul with Rending.
... maybe just make it a rending thunder hammer? lol.
Furyou Miko wrote: 7th edition codices still have dedicated transport slots, they just also have the vehicle available as a fast attack choice.
I'll have to look again, but I'm pretty sure they are strictly marked as FA, but are able to be taken as DTs. No DT slot in the book so they can be taken either way.
Yeah, going crazy is a pretty easy to do. Which is always something I worry about.
Furyou Miko wrote: I think that the best thing for the Sceptre of Vengeance would be to make it an AP3 power maul with armourbane, or an AP2, Unwieldy Power Maul with Rending.
... maybe just make it a rending thunder hammer? lol.
The way I went with it mostly came from it's description of the way she would go swinging with it, wrecking people as she went charging in. It seem like the kind of thing what would be a way to give Sisters an anti-horde CCW of some kind.
Yeah. It also had a knockdown effect of sorts when charging, ehe. It did a lot of stuff ^^;
DT 'slots' aren't really a thing and never have been. It was just a placeholder section because they didn't fit in anywhere else in the codex. When the Immolator was a heavy support option in the WH dex, it was only listed there, not in DT, even though it was primarily a DT.
Furyou Miko wrote: Yeah. It also had a knockdown effect of sorts when charging, ehe. It did a lot of stuff ^^;
True. But that was when you had characters who could win games solo as a fairly standard part of the game and I couldn't rightly bring it back with that much awesome.
Furyou Miko wrote: DT 'slots' aren't really a thing and never have been. It was just a placeholder section because they didn't fit in anywhere else in the codex. When the Immolator was a heavy support option in the WH dex, it was only listed there, not in DT, even though it was primarily a DT.
It was a place holder that kept you from purchasing them solo though. That was my only point.
Seriously check it out. I didn't use much restraint like you did and several units don't currently have models, but I filled in all of the unit the Sisters were lacking in, like Fliers.
Well, I know you don't want to rock the boat, but it resembles Codex: Adepta Sororitas a little too much in certain sections, like the one use Acts of Faith. Other additions aren't well though out.
Blessed Weapons are just Relic Blades. The Codex Witch Hunters Blessed weapon was Master-crafted Strength +2, One Per Army. If you want to give the Sisters something unique and fitting the fluff then I'd suggest making them Master-crafted Strength +1, or do what I did and just give them more relics too choose from. Fluff-wise there isn't a stockpile of Blessed Weapons, so I don't know why so many models can take them.
The rules for Sarrisas in my Codex were inspired by Bell of Lost Souls Ordo Hereticus Strike force update. They allow a model to charge in the assault phase after having fired there bolter, but can only hit with a 2 handed ccw in the first round.
The Condemnor Boltgun's Psi-shock rules are a bit off. What happens when a model makes a Look Out, Sir roll and allocates the wound to a Psyker.
Check my rules:
Stake: Psykers may not make Look Out, Sir rolls against wounds caused by this weapon. Any Psyker who is allocated a wound by this weapon also suffers a Perils of the Warp.
I also lowered the cost of the Condemnor Boltgun to 5 pts, because it's still highly situational and not as useful as a combi-flamer, combi-melta.
Blessed Armour is just Artificer Armour, I don't know why you needed to rename it, especially since the description isn't much different from Artificer Armour. I avoided giving the Sisters Artificer Armour in my own Codex, because I don't think it fits them.
The Praesidium Protectiva is really OP with its attack boosting ability. I just made it a Storm Shield, don't fix what ain't broken.
See my Ecclessiarchy relics for how I'd change the lot of them. I gave the Blade of Admonition Fear to match its fluff. I also made Kyinov and Praxedes characters again so they're not distilled in to their weapons.
Now onto the Canoness, especially Pride of the Order
With their limited selection of units people don't need further incentive to relegate the army to an allied detachment.
Canoness's really don't need the Rosarius, they should just be cheaper. Leave it as an option, but don't make it mandatory, especially when she can also take the Praesidium Protectiva.
Why not make the Palatine an HQ, it's not exactly a crowded field.
Celestians at 13 points just don't feel elite at all. They cost as much as a basic Chaos Space Marine. Give them more special rules and bump up their points, they should absolutely slaughter basic infantry like Tac Squads in the Assault.
Ministorum Priests are 1 of the worst additions of 6th edition, they do too much for what they cost and are almost mandatory. They're not even a Sister of Battle unit, their Ecclesiarchy. Why do Power Armour wearing Sisters drag a priest around to every battlefield, it's insane.
Why didn't you give the Penitent Engine it's Battle frenzy rule back? Also fluff wise I can't see a Penitent Engine Popping Smoke and then hiding in a defensible position. What I did was to give it Front Armour 12 to make it a bit more survivable, but more importantly I gave +D6" to it's movement meaning it can get into combat where it belongs faster.
AnomanderRake wrote: Random Faith Point generation in the 1d6-per-turn the way the White Dwarf Codex did doesn't balance out, I did the random generation the way I did because it's hard to get extremes when you're rolling eight or ten dice. The Superior/character buff and the Simulacrum were there to try and mitigate the inherent randomness (and make it so that people couldn't easily game the system by including lots of cheap minimum units); I haven't done a lot of testing on the setup, but the math doesn't seem too worrisome.
The best idea I've seen for non-random Faith Point generation is one Faith Point per unit per turn with varying costs to activate on different Acts; it's more forgiving than the 3e system, but still allows the resources to be directed as needed instead of simply giving every unit a one-time buff. I almost don't care about how Faith Points are generated so long as we get back to the idea of a central pool of resources that can be directed to make part of the army stronger as you need them.
As to the list size I built my rules before there were Inquisition and Militarum Tempestus mini-Codexes; I'm almost inclined to go back and make a Codex: Minor Imperial Forces encompassing several mini-Codexes in one (Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle really don't have enough content to be full books, the Tempestus book could be expanded quite a bit, and it'd be a manageable format for making Deathwatch and Arbites rules. Maybe a special Navy Support allied detachment that gives you squadrons of planes?)
You must be referring to my rules, in the Codex linked to above. Your Ordo Hereticus Rules are all over the place. It's like you tried to cram Inquisition, Imperial Guard, and Sisters of Battle all into one Codex and none of it meshes well. Certain things feel forced togetther, like the Vox Bead.
Furyou Miko wrote: 7th edition codices still have dedicated transport slots, they just also have the vehicle available as a fast attack choice.
Order Traits are a thorny subject, you should check out mine and SisterSydney's old homebrew threads on them. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/558743.page is the one that comes to mind, although in hindsight, I went a little crazy back there!
I think that the best thing for the Sceptre of Vengeance would be to make it an AP3 power maul with armourbane, or an AP2, Unwieldy Power Maul with Rending.
... maybe just make it a rending thunder hammer? lol.
I don't see why the Sisters of Battle need Order traits, they don't have a lot of diversity between the orders and not every army needs that level of customization. I also don't see how to add it in without increasing the cost of all Sisters units, which would fundamentally change what they are.
Seriously check it out. I didn't use much restraint like you did and several units don't currently have models, but I filled in all of the unit the Sisters were lacking in, like Fliers. My lack of rocking the boat is because I was trying to pitch a more effective and rounded codex to GW's design team using only was was available. I know it's simple but let's be frank: there isn't a lot to work with to start with
Well, I know you don't want to rock the boat, but it resembles Codex: Adepta Sororitas a little too much in certain sections, like the one use Acts of Faith. Other additions aren't well though out. I wasn't trying to rock the boat then because of the nature of what I was sending in and why. I'm trying to update it into a viable and legitimate homebrew for people to use that is more than just the bare bones "fix what's only in the codex" approach I used before. Basically I'm taking the kid gloves off this time.
Blessed Weapons are just Relic Blades. The Codex Witch Hunters Blessed weapon was Master-crafted Strength +2, One Per Army. Relic Blades are also +2S and because of the AP values of swords, AP3. They were always basically Relic Blades, all I did was bring them back.
If you want to give the Sisters something unique and fitting the fluff then I'd suggest making them Master-crafted Strength +1, or do what I did and just give them more relics too choose from. Fluff-wise there isn't a stockpile of Blessed Weapons, so I don't know why so many models can take them. The only ones who can take them are the Canoness, the Palatine and the Sororitas Command Squad. That's actually about the same as the spread of what Relic Blades get in a Marine codex. Also if I Mastercraft them then I'd have to up the cost more and they wouldn't get used.
The rules for Sarrisas in my Codex were inspired by Bell of Lost Souls Ordo Hereticus Strike force update. They allow a model to charge in the assault phase after having fired there bolter, but can only hit with a 2 handed ccw in the first round. That feels a bit too strong honestly.
The Condemnor Boltgun's Psi-shock rules are a bit off. What happens when a model makes a Look Out, Sir roll and allocates the wound to a Psyker. Considering when I wrote it it's not off. It's an almost verbatim copy of the older rule that got replaced with the nerfed one. It needs rewriting anyways because of the dozen or so changes to the way 7th works anyways.
Check my rules:
Stake: Psykers may not make Look Out, Sir rolls against wounds caused by this weapon. Any Psyker who is allocated a wound by this weapon also suffers a Perils of the Warp. Noted.
I also lowered the cost of the Condemnor Boltgun to 5 pts, because it's still highly situational and not as useful as a combi-flamer, combi-melta. I won't go that low, as while it's situational, there are too many psykers being fielded to claim that it should be almost free.
Blessed Armour is just Artificer Armour, I don't know why you needed to rename it, especially since the description isn't much different from Artificer Armour. I avoided giving the Sisters Artificer Armour in my own Codex, because I don't think it fits them. I know it's basically the same, but I felt the changed name suited their background and flavor more. And I do think it fits. Or do you really think they can't have a 2+ save in an army that has a character in basically flying Artificer Armor with a Rosarius?
The Praesidium Protectiva is really OP with its attack boosting ability. I just made it a Storm Shield, don't fix what ain't broken. I am nerfing it (as mentioned already).
See my Ecclessiarchy relics for how I'd change the lot of them. I gave the Blade of Admonition Fear to match its fluff. I also made Kyinov and Praxedes characters again so they're not distilled in to their weapons. I was working with fixing a failure of a codex, not adding in what was already stolen. I'm not against putting Kyrinov into the book, but older characters like Praxedes or Helen are a PITA to update from 2nd so I don't know how far that'll go.
Now onto the Canoness, especially Pride of the Order
With their limited selection of units people don't need further incentive to relegate the army to an allied detachment. With how poor Sisters basically are as an ally I was trying to give them a bonus to ally with. Since 7th dropped FOC changes like that it's going away too.
Canoness's really don't need the Rosarius, they should just be cheaper. Leave it as an option, but don't make it mandatory, especially when she can also take the Praesidium Protectiva. Mainline HQs are incresingly coming standard with Invul saves. I don't really think giving it to her (previously a 15 point upgrade) and knocking 5 points off her old base cost is unfair. Not to mention you can't really make her that much cheaper without unbalancing things.
Why not make the Palatine an HQ, it's not exactly a crowded field. Because she's a watered down buget-Canoness that no one would take? If people won't take the Canoness, why would they take a Palatine on her own?
Celestians at 13 points just don't feel elite at all. They cost as much as a basic Chaos Space Marine. Give them more special rules and bump up their points, they should absolutely slaughter basic infantry like Tac Squads in the Assault. Celestians aren't a pure assault force. Also they're a point cheaper than their official version, and come with a CCW to go with their Bolt Pistol making them effectively A3. I also improved their Shield of Faith to a 5++. 13 points sounds pretty fair for those additions (I also had greatly improved their old Act of Faith by making it usable in any phase, not just assault, but that's a thing that'll change so I'm not going to stress that here). And considering what they have they are definitely "Elite" for Sisters. Bumping their points up further or adding more rules (or both) would just make them bloated and less useful.
Ministorum Priests are 1 of the worst additions of 6th edition, they do too much for what they cost and are almost mandatory. They're not even a Sister of Battle unit, their Ecclesiarchy. Why do Power Armour wearing Sisters drag a priest around to every battlefield, it's insane. You really need to read up on your fluff because priests going to war when Sisters do is pretty common. Also priests roll with the IG, are you really saying that if they can roll with the main army of the Imperium (because the Guard are the main basic army), they can't roll with the holy warriors who work with and for them?
Why didn't you give the Penitent Engine it's Battle frenzy rule back? Also fluff wise I can't see a Penitent Engine Popping Smoke and then hiding in a defensible position. What I did was to give it Front Armour 12 to make it a bit more survivable, but more importantly I gave +D6" to it's movement meaning it can get into combat where it belongs faster. Smoke has uses on moving vehicles too. But I dropped it 10 points, and at the time I didn't consider giving it back Battle Frenzy. Honestly I think I'd rather give it Rampage instead because it fits what the Engine does: run into a large blob of enemies and start threshing. The bonus attacks gets a bit silly balance wise too. Yes, it wasn't as bad as the infinite attacks of the Death Company Dreadnought, but it was still silly.
I don't see why the Sisters of Battle need Order traits, they don't have a lot of diversity between the orders and not every army needs that level of customization. I also don't see how to add it in without increasing the cost of all Sisters units, which would fundamentally change what they are. It goes back to the fluff. Each of the Major Orders is very different in personality and fighting style. The Order of the Sacred for example is described like this: "The order strives to emulate their patron saint and her virtues of discipline, even-temperment, and resolute determination. This resolve to stay calm in battle has particularly benefited Retributor Squads, who use her as a role model to avoid doubt and rash action while wielding their heavy weapons.". Allowing players to feel like their hard work for building an order is rewarded is the same thing that every player wants with every codex. It's not really fair that the only ones who get any variant rules based on color scheme are the Marines and more flavor and variety isn't a bad thing.
AnomanderRake wrote: Random Faith Point generation in the 1d6-per-turn the way the White Dwarf Codex did doesn't balance out, I did the random generation the way I did because it's hard to get extremes when you're rolling eight or ten dice. The Superior/character buff and the Simulacrum were there to try and mitigate the inherent randomness (and make it so that people couldn't easily game the system by including lots of cheap minimum units); I haven't done a lot of testing on the setup, but the math doesn't seem too worrisome.
The best idea I've seen for non-random Faith Point generation is one Faith Point per unit per turn with varying costs to activate on different Acts; it's more forgiving than the 3e system, but still allows the resources to be directed as needed instead of simply giving every unit a one-time buff. I almost don't care about how Faith Points are generated so long as we get back to the idea of a central pool of resources that can be directed to make part of the army stronger as you need them.
As to the list size I built my rules before there were Inquisition and Militarum Tempestus mini-Codexes; I'm almost inclined to go back and make a Codex: Minor Imperial Forces encompassing several mini-Codexes in one (Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle really don't have enough content to be full books, the Tempestus book could be expanded quite a bit, and it'd be a manageable format for making Deathwatch and Arbites rules. Maybe a special Navy Support allied detachment that gives you squadrons of planes?)
You must be referring to my rules, in the Codex linked to above. Your Ordo Hereticus Rules are all over the place. It's like you tried to cram Inquisition, Imperial Guard, and Sisters of Battle all into one Codex and none of it meshes well. Certain things feel forced togetther, like the Vox Bead.
That's entirely possible.
My theory was to build something that works like the old 3e Ordo Hereticus book and MrSako's 5e Inquisition rules (http://warhammergames.ru/_ld/1/149_Warhammer_40k-C.pdf in case anyone's curious), but the way the Codex structure of 7e is set up I may end up backing off and doing a Codex: Minor Imperial Armies with several mini-Codexes (fixed/expanded GK, Sisters, Tempestus, new Deathwatch, possibly Arbites and Imperial Navy).
Ministorum Priests have been part of the SoB battle line since their inception in 1998, so I don't know why anyone would claim they're a bad addition for sixth...
Of course, what I really want to do is give them an option to take Power Armour, because Sisters Sabine.
About the only thing I agree with from J3f's post is the idea that the Blade of Admonition could have Fear - that was one of its original properties, kind of, but that was before it was re-fluffed to be Alicia Dominica's sword instead of a random terrifying blade o' mediocre doom.
There are plenty of Blessed Weapons laying around, anyway. Heck, four of them have names:
Blade of Admonition
Axe of Retribution
Flail of Chastisement
Staff of Belief
If you want to include those attached to named characters as well, you also get,
Ardent Blade
Mace of Valaan
Rod of Grace
Sceptre of Vengeance
Redeemer (OK, a bit out of synch since it's a shotgun, but still, it IS a blessed weapon)
Not to mention in the WDDex Altar of Battle, one of the missions let you find them as objectives!
As for updating Praxedes and Helena, it's not so hard.
Praxedes (180 points)
Canoness statline (originally, she was a Canoness with -1 Initiative, but since that was from 7 down to 6...)
Wargear: Power Armour, Cloak of St. Aspira, Bolter, Meltabombs, Krak and Frag Grenades, the Sceptre of Vengeance, Purity Seal, Auspex
Special Rules: Shield of Faith, Acts of Faith, Irresistible Charge
Warlord Trait: Inspirational Leader
Irresistible Charge: When Praxedes assaults an enemy unit, she has the Furious Charge and Knockdown special rules.
Inspirational Leader: All friendly units within 12" of Saint Praxedes may use her unmodified Leadership score for morale tests.
Sceptre of Vengeance: (hard bit, I still think +2 Str, AP2, Armourbane, Concussive)
Helena the Virtuous (150 points)
WS 4 BS 4 S 3 T 3 W3 I3 A3 LD 10 3+/4++
Wargear: Power Armour, Rosarius, Bolter, Frag and Krak Grenades, Rod of Grace, Purity Seal, Mantle of Ophelia
Special Rules: Shield of Faith, Acts of Faith, Supremely Faithful, Revered Leader, Bodyguard
Warlord Trait: Holy Radiance
Supremely Faithful: All friendly models within 12" automatically pass any War Hymns or Acts of Faith tests they are required to make.
Revered Leader: If Helena suffers a wound, all models taken from the same detachment as her gain Hatred (The Enemy). If she dies, all models from the same detachment as her also gain Fearless. If Helena is taken, she must be the army warlord. If she is slain, she grants an additional Victory Point to the enemy.
Bodyguard: Helena must always be accompanied by a Sororitas Command Squad.
Holy Radiance: All friendly, fleeing Imperial models within 12" of Helena at the start of their turn rally automatically.
Rod of Grace: A Crozius Arcanum with two profiles:
BEAM: Rng 6 S6 AP2
MACE: Rng - Sx2, AP2, Concussive, Unwieldy
Essentially, the Rod of Grace is a thunder hammer that can be used from 6" away, heh.
AnomanderRake wrote: Random Faith Point generation in the 1d6-per-turn the way the White Dwarf Codex did doesn't balance out, I did the random generation the way I did because it's hard to get extremes when you're rolling eight or ten dice. The Superior/character buff and the Simulacrum were there to try and mitigate the inherent randomness (and make it so that people couldn't easily game the system by including lots of cheap minimum units); I haven't done a lot of testing on the setup, but the math doesn't seem too worrisome.
The best idea I've seen for non-random Faith Point generation is one Faith Point per unit per turn with varying costs to activate on different Acts; it's more forgiving than the 3e system, but still allows the resources to be directed as needed instead of simply giving every unit a one-time buff. I almost don't care about how Faith Points are generated so long as we get back to the idea of a central pool of resources that can be directed to make part of the army stronger as you need them.
As to the list size I built my rules before there were Inquisition and Militarum Tempestus mini-Codexes; I'm almost inclined to go back and make a Codex: Minor Imperial Forces encompassing several mini-Codexes in one (Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle really don't have enough content to be full books, the Tempestus book could be expanded quite a bit, and it'd be a manageable format for making Deathwatch and Arbites rules. Maybe a special Navy Support allied detachment that gives you squadrons of planes?)
You must be referring to my rules, in the Codex linked to above. Your Ordo Hereticus Rules are all over the place. It's like you tried to cram Inquisition, Imperial Guard, and Sisters of Battle all into one Codex and none of it meshes well. Certain things feel forced togetther, like the Vox Bead.
That's entirely possible.
My theory was to build something that works like the old 3e Ordo Hereticus book and MrSako's 5e Inquisition rules (http://warhammergames.ru/_ld/1/149_Warhammer_40k-C.pdf in case anyone's curious), but the way the Codex structure of 7e is set up I may end up backing off and doing a Codex: Minor Imperial Armies with several mini-Codexes (fixed/expanded GK, Sisters, Tempestus, new Deathwatch, possibly Arbites and Imperial Navy).
MrSako's Inquisition Codex has enough content to fill 4 or 5 Codexes. The Sisters of Battle and the Grey Knights deserve their own fully fledged codexes. I already Covered Sisters and the Ordo Hereticus in my own Codex. I would like to see Grey Knights go back to being Daemon Hunters and incorporating The Ordo Malleus. Death Watch should be in an Ordo Xenos Codex to complete the Inquisition Trifecta. Just call it Codex Inquisition and toss in Inquisitorial Storm Troopers and Arbitres.
AnomanderRake wrote: Random Faith Point generation in the 1d6-per-turn the way the White Dwarf Codex did doesn't balance out, I did the random generation the way I did because it's hard to get extremes when you're rolling eight or ten dice. The Superior/character buff and the Simulacrum were there to try and mitigate the inherent randomness (and make it so that people couldn't easily game the system by including lots of cheap minimum units); I haven't done a lot of testing on the setup, but the math doesn't seem too worrisome.
The best idea I've seen for non-random Faith Point generation is one Faith Point per unit per turn with varying costs to activate on different Acts; it's more forgiving than the 3e system, but still allows the resources to be directed as needed instead of simply giving every unit a one-time buff. I almost don't care about how Faith Points are generated so long as we get back to the idea of a central pool of resources that can be directed to make part of the army stronger as you need them.
As to the list size I built my rules before there were Inquisition and Militarum Tempestus mini-Codexes; I'm almost inclined to go back and make a Codex: Minor Imperial Forces encompassing several mini-Codexes in one (Grey Knights and Sisters of Battle really don't have enough content to be full books, the Tempestus book could be expanded quite a bit, and it'd be a manageable format for making Deathwatch and Arbites rules. Maybe a special Navy Support allied detachment that gives you squadrons of planes?)
You must be referring to my rules, in the Codex linked to above. Your Ordo Hereticus Rules are all over the place. It's like you tried to cram Inquisition, Imperial Guard, and Sisters of Battle all into one Codex and none of it meshes well. Certain things feel forced togetther, like the Vox Bead.
That's entirely possible.
My theory was to build something that works like the old 3e Ordo Hereticus book and MrSako's 5e Inquisition rules (http://warhammergames.ru/_ld/1/149_Warhammer_40k-C.pdf in case anyone's curious), but the way the Codex structure of 7e is set up I may end up backing off and doing a Codex: Minor Imperial Armies with several mini-Codexes (fixed/expanded GK, Sisters, Tempestus, new Deathwatch, possibly Arbites and Imperial Navy).
MrSako's Inquisition Codex has enough content to fill 4 or 5 Codexes. The Sisters of Battle and the Grey Knights deserve their own fully fledged codexes. I already Covered Sisters and the Ordo Hereticus in my own Codex. I would like to see Grey Knights go back to being Daemon Hunters and incorporating The Ordo Malleus. Death Watch should be in an Ordo Xenos Codex to complete the Inquisition Trifecta. Just call it Codex Inquisition and toss in Inquisitorial Storm Troopers and Arbitres.
One unit with six names does not a full Codex make.
The Sisters might be able to run as a standalone with a slight expansion of Ecclesiarchy options, but the Grey Knights as a standalone don't have enough variability or functionality after the Inquisition and Stormtrooper content got stripped out. Doing a set of smaller lists for the GK, Sisters, and Deathwatch with central Stormtroopers and Inquisition common to all three eliminates a lot of redundancy between the three books.
Yay, Sororitas fandexes! I am giddy with sleep deprivation but will attempt to say sensible things.
Army-wide: - The Faithful rule: Like it. A flavorful upgrade to mark elite Sisters, as you say. - Acts of Faith: I like the flavor each unit gets from a unique AOF, actually. I'd just like each unit to have its unique AOF and access to a list of AOF shared by all Sisters. - Order Traits: I ended up doing them as Relics, so you could pay points for them, because something something balance. - "Look out sir ma'am!" on the Signifer (simulacrum bearer): good, plugs a hole.
Unit by unit: - Canoness: Free Rosarius makes much sense. "Pride of the Order" is obsolete given 7e alliance shennigans. - SCS: agree with J3f that the Palatine should be an IC and a "junior HQ" in her own right, like the SM Chaplain & Librarian, able to lead a (presumably small) detachment in the absence of a Canoness, rather than a SCS member. Customizable SCS size is sensible. - Arco-Flagellants as Beasts: yes yes yes yessssss - Dominion flamers gain Shred instead of (redundant) Ignore Cover: yessss it burns prettily yessssssss
Overall, this is a good start -- but it doesn't address the fundamental shortfall of the Sisters: They just don't have enough variety in their codex. That's why I've been homebrewing so many crazy things... I should take inspiration from you to compile all the ones that (mostly) worked into one thread.
- Acts of Faith: I like the flavor each unit gets from a unique AOF, actually. I'd just like each unit to have its unique AOF and access to a list of AOF shared by all Sisters.
So basically, both 3rd and 5th edition's approach to AoF then?
Thinking of AoF, I'm thinking Faith Points would be generated as 1 per unit with Shield Faith (and a bonus point per Faithful unit (so a Canoness would generate two for example).
I don't like them costing points considering Marines don't pay for Chapter Tactics. It feels like a bit of a slap to have to pay points when the poster boys don't.
SisterSydney wrote: "Pride of the Order" is obsolete given 7e alliance shennigans.
I'll have to play with it I guess because I don't really know if making her a stand alone really makes her usable. I mean the Canoness isn't the strongest ICHQ out there, and the Palatine is a budget version of her.
SisterSydney wrote: Overall, this is a good start -- but it doesn't address the fundamental shortfall of the Sisters: They just don't have enough variety in their codex. That's why I've been homebrewing so many crazy things... I should take inspiration from you to compile all the ones that (mostly) worked into one thread.
At the time I wrote this I limited myself to what existed in the codex and trying to address it. It was more strictly a way to pitch to GW how to better internally balance the book and make everything feel viable than a true expansion and upgrade of the army.
Since I'm throwing those shackles off I'm looking at bringing other stuff (all the FW things, that homebrew return of the Drop Pod, a Build-Your-Own-Saint Generic HQ ala Phoenix Lords or C'Tan Shards, ect) into the mix. And while I am looking to get a bit creative, I am looking to try and build things around things that exist, though some stealing from other armies may need to be done to do it (Landraiders...maybe Baal Predators......ect).
I disagree on Land Raiders - the fluff explicitly states that the AdMech agreed to only give them to Space Marines, and that any Inquisitor who turns up with one has basically stolen it.
- Acts of Faith: I like the flavor each unit gets from a unique AOF, actually. I'd just like each unit to have its unique AOF and access to a list of AOF shared by all Sisters.
So basically, both 3rd and 5th edition's approach to AoF then?
Yes. "The best of both worlds" -- which unfortunately makes me think of the theme song for Hannah Montana (remember, when Sister Miley was a demure little thing, before she went all Repentia?) -- but I digress/
Furyou Miko wrote: I disagree on Land Raiders - the fluff explicitly states that the AdMech agreed to only give them to Space Marines, and that any Inquisitor who turns up with one has basically stolen it.
Which fluff exactly? Because I don't recall anything of the sort.
Furyou Miko wrote: I disagree on Land Raiders - the fluff explicitly states that the AdMech agreed to only give them to Space Marines, and that any Inquisitor who turns up with one has basically stolen it.
Which fluff exactly? Because I don't recall anything of the sort.
Who says there can't be an Inquisitor who stole several and passed them on to Sisters of Battle forces? Or a Forge World in a region of space without a lot of Space Marines who built a few for the Sisters because they needed someone to run about with them?
Also it gives folks an excuse to convert their own Land Raider Helios with the pipe organ on the back.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Back to the general versus unique Acts of Faith I think J3f's approach is actually a pretty good compromise; there's a common pool for everyone, but each unit gets a greater effect using 'their' Act, even though everyone can use it.
Heck with the Ecclesiarchy's resources, ties and wealth I'm sure they can leverage some of the Mechanicus who believe that the Emperor is the Omnissiah for support (and as such, Land Raiders).
Mainly I was looking at the Crusader and Redeemer since those fit the army the best (though that Assault Cannon might need to be swapped for a Heavy Bolter or something to fit better). They'd basically be rolling Battle Cathedrals for the Sisters and they'd fit very nicely that way too I think.
Lots of good work and really like that you took the time to explain your chnages - as yet another author of a fan made AS codex (are there any Sisters players who have not done so ???) my thoughts
I like the current version of Acts of Faith so much more in the GW Codex than previous iterations.
Must admit I prefer the GW Codex Light of the Emperor for Battle Sisters - prefered Enemy is great.
I like the new "Faithful" rule.
Weapons list is all good.
Blessed Weapon = Relic Blade - agree thats what I did Blessed Armour - personally I think Artifcer armour is fine - especially for notables such as the Cannoness - they go to great lengths to equip the Sisters with excellent armour and equipment and this should extend to their leaders armour.............
Relics - good to see you can atacually now take more than one as a Canonness.
Units
No St Celestine? Add if you can: Canoness Praxedes of Ophelia VII and Helena the Virtuous, Prioress of the Convent Sanctorum
Cannoness - def agree the Rosarius is stock Still would prefer an option for a lower ranked leader - the Palatine in her own right?
Seraphim with a re-rollable 5++ might be a bit nasty?
Penitent Engines - I guess we really should make them into Monsterous Creature s- pretty much every other "walker" is one now............
Suggested addiitons:
Frateris Militia Band - basically Cultists
Drop Pods - Dominca pattern Drop Pod is canon
I like the idea of someone ion the force to maintian and repair the vehicles - either special Mechanicum or Techmarine style Sisters- both have been done well in fan ficition and fan codexes.
The fluff for Land Raiders has changed quite a bit over editions - at the beginning everyone used it - Imperial Army etc, later on it became Maries only and its presently back to Marines, Mechanicum and Inquisiton.
Mr Morden wrote: http://www.mangahere.co/manga/hajime_no_ippo/v07/c056/20.htmlNo St Celestine? Add if you can: Canoness Praxedes of Ophelia VII and Helena the Virtuous, Prioress of the Convent Sanctorum
Celestine was left out (as was the Rhino) because I had no proposed changes to them when I sent it into GW. I think Making her a LoW and giving her EW is about all I can think of for an update on her.
Mr Morden wrote: Penitent Engines - I guess we really should make them into Monsterous Creature s- pretty much every other "walker" is one now............
Dreadnoughts, Helbrutes, and Sentinels aren't to think of a few. But it is tempting. That is if it didn't make them useless against Dark Eldar and their love of poisoned weapons.
Mr Morden wrote: I like the idea of someone ion the force to maintian and repair the vehicles - either special Mechanicum or Techmarine style Sisters- both have been done well in fan ficition and fan codexes.
Since the Mechanicum doesn't get to touch the Exoricsts (in the old fluff) I'd almost say it'd be a Sister, but then how are they trained? One of those "too many questions" things I guess. But yeah, Sister with a Servo Arm.
Mr Morden wrote: The fluff for Land Raiders has changed quite a bit over editions - at the beginning everyone used it - Imperial Army etc, later on it became Maries only and its presently back to Marines, Mechanicum and Inquisiton.
I get not giving them to the Guard (they have other large transports anyways), but Sisters I feel owning a few (and I do mean very few, with them likely old enough to be relics in their own right) seems fitting to me.
Silly sidenote going through the Acts of Faith: Divine Guidance is the only one that's done the same thing through all three of the Ordo Hereticus, 5e White Dwarf Sisters, and 6e Adepta Sororitas books.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On the Tech-Sister I can't find any reference to Mechanicum-trained Sisters in the Dark Heresy books, and the Ordo Hereticus book makes reference to Techpriests that service the Exorcists. I'd rather do Techpriests seconded to the Sisters by the Mechanicum, it makes them feel less like SM-lite to me.
I think either way of doing the Tech aspect works - ether Enginseers or "Techmarines"
I went for:
Apparatus Guardianus The Adepta Sororitas maintain a body of those sanctified and pure of heart to care for the powerful and arcane machinery at their disposal them. Years of training go towards achieving this respected position and aspirants must learn how to
divine the runes of engineering, memorise the liturgy of maintenance and constantly study the routines of service. It is a position of great honour to care for this sacred technology and the Sororitas were granted this concession from the
Adeptus Mechancius following the Icara Crusade. Apparatus gaurdianus are seldom risked din battle for they are invaluable in not merely maintaining the Orders weaponry and vehicles but passing that knowledge to their aspirants
One of the fluff reasons that hinders variety between different Sororitas orders and even individual sisters within the order is their sheer zealotry, or rather how the reader usually interprets it: Complete uniformity with absolute hatred for anything that doesn't match up with their beliefs.
The way I see it, if the sisters completely followed that interpretation, they would have killed most of the Imperium for having 1-billion-and-1 variations on how they worship the Emperor. These variations, both small and large, have popped up due to the huge size of the Imperium, not helped by the very unreliable communication between worlds, let alone the segmentums. Make them somewhat more flexible, and they for example would have no problems with tech-sister who is firmly in the "Omnissiah is one of the many faces of the God-Emperor" camp.
There is also the Decree Passive: In SisterSydney's various homebrews, while the the letter of the law is still abused, the spirit of the law still prevents them from normally fielding the heaviest stuff. IMO, after the 4-5 Millennia since the Age of Apostasy, the Ecclesiarchy reduced that piece of paper to near-irrelevance through wealth, influence and subterfuge, with only the "No men under arms" rule still having any effect.
And now a suggestion:
Relic Volkite Weaponry - The Burniest guns for one of the burniest factions.
Regarding the different beliefs thing, per the Sister's fluff the Ecclesiarchy is fairly lenient in what you believe as long as at the end of the dayyou belive the Emperor is God and serve him faithfully. The rest is just unimportant details.
Not me. My headcanon is the Ecclesiarchy doesn't want the Mechanicus corrupting their personnel, so they confine AdMech personnel to major maintenance depots and have them train carefully vetted "Tech Deacons" to do simple field work...
SisterSydney wrote: Not me. My headcanon is the Ecclesiarchy doesn't want the Mechanicus corrupting their personnel, so they confine AdMech personnel to major maintenance depots and have them train carefully vetted "Tech Deacons" to do simple field work...
They could pull the Menoth Vassal Mechanics/Qunari Sarebaas thing and have Mechanicum priests operating in the field under the strict condition that they don't talk to anyone.
SisterSydney wrote: Not me. My headcanon is the Ecclesiarchy doesn't want the Mechanicus corrupting their personnel, so they confine AdMech personnel to major maintenance depots and have them train carefully vetted "Tech Deacons" to do simple field work...
They could pull the Menoth Vassal Mechanics/Qunari Sarebaas thing and have Mechanicum priests operating in the field under the strict condition that they don't talk to anyone.
One up it, they have no tongues so they can't be tempted to talk to anyone.
SisterSydney wrote: Not me. My headcanon is the Ecclesiarchy doesn't want the Mechanicus corrupting their personnel, so they confine AdMech personnel to major maintenance depots and have them train carefully vetted "Tech Deacons" to do simple field work...
They could pull the Menoth Vassal Mechanics/Qunari Sarebaas thing and have Mechanicum priests operating in the field under the strict condition that they don't talk to anyone.
One up it, they have no tongues so they can't be tempted to talk to anyone.
But how will they chant the sacred rituals to appease the Machine Spirits?
SisterSydney wrote: Not me. My headcanon is the Ecclesiarchy doesn't want the Mechanicus corrupting their personnel, so they confine AdMech personnel to major maintenance depots and have them train carefully vetted "Tech Deacons" to do simple field work...
They could pull the Menoth Vassal Mechanics/Qunari Sarebaas thing and have Mechanicum priests operating in the field under the strict condition that they don't talk to anyone.
One up it, they have no tongues so they can't be tempted to talk to anyone.
But how will they chant the sacred rituals to appease the Machine Spirits?
The long dead language of morse code via tapping.
Or servitors who do the chanting for her (ala Space Wolves in Battle for the Fang).
In the process of revising my rules for 7e; sticking to J3f's core ideas on Acts, but I feel like eleven Acts is too many with the potential redundancy. Major points I'm differing from prior attempts discussed on this page are Militia Warbands as Troops (what would the 41st millennium be without religious fanatics usable as expendable cannon fodder?) and the Erelim (as discussed in an earlier thread about a dedicated Sororitas Flyer, I know SisterSydney disagreed with me on basing it on the Storm Eagle but a shock transport loaded down with flame-themed weaponry using multi-meltas to dogfight in a pinch seems very in-character for the Sisters).
Ophanim are probably going (not a lot of basis in fluff, don't remember where I got the idea but I think it was someone else's homebrew Codex) but I'm leaving the CC Seraphim variant in on the grounds that I've grown attached to the mental image. May draw on other folks' Special Characters, and my build-your-own-Living-Saint setup is staying in.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also a Sororitas tank based on the Relic Predator running with the torrent Flamestorm Cannon or the melta cannon as turret guns. No way an idea that fitting and pre-priced for me is staying out.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also got convinced by a friend to un-delete Dominions. Going to try and give them their own niche as the preferred Drop Pod unit.
Actually, after the a brief look at the codex to confirm it, the Dominions are less scout and more vanguard shock troops, whose role is to utterly destroy the opposition on contact, leaving the survivors, if any, unable to form any kind of resistance.
EDIT: On the subject of scouts, many homebrews I saw over the years didn't bother making the scout/recon/sniper equivalents for the sisters, citing that their zealous temperament and fighting doctrine do no mix with those roles.
SisterSydney wrote: Oh, I think a "cold sniper" Sister would be scary -- and a good complement to the fiery, charge-ahead types (e.g. Dominions).
Indeed - they could also be members of:
Sisters of the Order Sabine operate at the very edges of human space on newly rediscovered human worlds. They specialising in infiltrating the regressed and primitive societies which may oppose the imminent arrival of the Imperium. The Sisters often set themselves up as prophets of the Emperor and foment revolt against the religious leaders of a world. When the Missionarus Galaxia arrives, the Sisters Sabine will have prophesised such an event, and lead those natives sympathetic to the Imperial Creed in a sudden and deadly coup. The Sisters Sabine are often cut off from the Imperium for a great many years, and many have the appearance of having 'gone native', adopting the clothing, language and manners of the culture they are infiltrating.
Ah, I remember those from your fandex (I think). Those would be true infiltrator along the lines of the Imperial Assassins, almost -- less a scout squad than an independent character with special rules..... maybe a leader for Frateris? Hmmm.
Furyou Miko wrote: Why would you drop Dominions? They have a defined role as scouts and sabotage teams - they're basically the Sororitas' answer to Tau Pathfinders.
Because in game function they were special weapons troops that ran around in Rhinos, i.e. the exact same tactical role as plain ordinary SoB. I'm trying to give them their own niche now because of all the negative feedback I got from Sisters players on the subject; making them more like Pathfinders/Scouts is definitely an answer.
SisterSydney wrote: Oh, I think a "cold sniper" Sister would be scary -- and a good complement to the fiery, charge-ahead types (e.g. Dominions).
Indeed - they could also be members of:
Sisters of the Order Sabine operate at the very edges of human space on newly rediscovered human worlds. They specialising in infiltrating the regressed and primitive societies which may oppose the imminent arrival of the Imperium. The Sisters often set themselves up as prophets of the Emperor and foment revolt against the religious leaders of a world. When the Missionarus Galaxia arrives, the Sisters Sabine will have prophesised such an event, and lead those natives sympathetic to the Imperial Creed in a sudden and deadly coup. The Sisters Sabine are often cut off from the Imperium for a great many years, and many have the appearance of having 'gone native', adopting the clothing, language and manners of the culture they are infiltrating.
I'm slightly skeptical that this would end up not having said Sisters accused of heresy and executed on the spot, but fluff can be tweaked. Only the most zealous and trusted Sisters are chosen for such spiritually dangerous duties, that sort of thing.
Furyou Miko wrote: Rake, the Sabines are an actual, canonical Order. ^^;
I can be skeptical of canon just as easily as I can be skeptical of headcanon (Khornate GK, Necron/BA teamup, all of Soulstorm, et cetera). That said I will do some research into the subject and see if they're interesting enough/contain enough detail that I can represent them in my rules.
Furyou Miko wrote: Rake, the Sabines are an actual, canonical Order. ^^;
I can be skeptical of canon just as easily as I can be skeptical of headcanon (Khornate GK, Necron/BA teamup, all of Soulstorm, et cetera). That said I will do some research into the subject and see if they're interesting enough/contain enough detail that I can represent them in my rules.
Long story really short: they're used to infiltrate planets to help spread the word of the Emperor covertly, and by weaving him into the local myths and legends. They can even go as far as killing existing religious leaders to help with this. This is done in advance of Missionary Fleets to help convert the local population, or at least get them primed for the main fleet to do the conversion work to make bringing the planet back into the fold of the Imperium easier.
Basically a reverse Word Bearers/Chaos Cultist approach.
Mentions on wikis and Blood of Martyrs. I like SisterSydney's suggestion on how to use them, but I'd probably set them up less as assassin/stealth/sneaky folks and more as a variant militia warband leader (priests are the beatstick leader, Sabines might give them access to Acts of Faith).
AnomanderRake wrote: Mentions on wikis and Blood of Martyrs. I like SisterSydney's suggestion on how to use them, but I'd probably set them up less as assassin/stealth/sneaky folks and more as a variant militia warband leader (priests are the beatstick leader, Sabines might give them access to Acts of Faith).
Honestly design wise I'd probably base them on Space Marine scouts, only with Sister Stats instead (and a points drop down to 7-8ppm). Maybe give them Stalker Pattern Bolters with special ammo as their thing or something.
AnomanderRake wrote: Mentions on wikis and Blood of Martyrs. I like SisterSydney's suggestion on how to use them, but I'd probably set them up less as assassin/stealth/sneaky folks and more as a variant militia warband leader (priests are the beatstick leader, Sabines might give them access to Acts of Faith).
Honestly design wise I'd probably base them on Space Marine scouts, only with Sister Stats instead (and a points drop down to 7-8ppm). Maybe give them Stalker Pattern Bolters with special ammo as their thing or something.
I'm not getting the sense that they're infiltrators/assassins from the tidbits of fluff that exist on the subject, they're an Order Non-Militant and they're diplomats first, soldiers second.
AnomanderRake wrote: Mentions on wikis and Blood of Martyrs. I like SisterSydney's suggestion on how to use them, but I'd probably set them up less as assassin/stealth/sneaky folks and more as a variant militia warband leader (priests are the beatstick leader, Sabines might give them access to Acts of Faith).
This is how I've always seen them operating. Actually, my Ministorum Priests in my RL army are all modelled as Sabines.
My thought has been that normally that would be the case, but if for some reason they deploy to a conflict they'd basically be focused on removing the heads of the opposing faction (just like they would an Arch-Heretic).
Automatically Appended Next Post: I just had a thought to go with them being snipers: go the 30k Marines route: Snipers in Power Armor and Camo cloaks.
That was my original thought with Afrielim (my 'novices' unit from years back). Power armour armour and Adjudicator (just renamed Stalker because the Stalker is heavy 2 and the Adjudicator is heavy 1 because they're not special characters) boltguns.
I get the impression they are rabble rousers, terrorist leaders and where neccesary assassins.
Now I am thinking Alex and Nikita from the recent Nikita series - well its a nice place to go
They may well be there to guide in Strike teams from the Miltiant Orders when a new planet is being brought into the Imperium although they may be a bit strange to the other Sisters?
Another interesting possible inclusion:
The Orders Pronatus specialise in retrieving, guarding, studying and repairing artefacts of value to the Ecclesiarchy. This includes the uncounted thousands of holy relics revered by the peoples of the Imperium, but it also relates to items captured by the forces of the Imperium that are considered too powerful or significant to be allowed to fall into enemy hands. They have the responsibility of maintaining and blessing the many banners and symbols of the Orders Militant and often re-consecrate the livery of other Imperial bodies. On occasion, members of the Orders Pronatus have given all in the defence of artefacts they were charged with guarding or studying. The fate of the Order of Blessed Enquiry is a salutary lesson in the risks inherent in hoarding an object imbued with the evil of the Ruinous Powers, even if the intent is to safeguard Humanity from their corrupting influence.
So to simplify Acts of Faith here's a change I'm considering:
Once per game turn any unit composed completely of models with the Acts of Faith and/or the Battle Hymn special rules may attempt to use an Act of Faith. If that unit contains a model with the Faithful special rule the unit may use the same Act of Faith a second time during a different phase (as Acts of Faith do not stack), or use a different Act of Faith. In addition to all unit specific Acts of Faith the following Acts may be performed by any unit with the Acts of Faith Special Rule:
The Emperor Protects: Chanting prayers and singing hymns the Sisters of Battle move to engage the enemy with the belief of the Emperor's divine protection burning in their hearts. Used during at the start of the Assault Phase or during the start of the opposing player's Shooting Phase or Assault Phase, if the unit has not used an Act of Faith this turn (if the unit has used an Act of Faith but contains a model with the Faithful special rule it may still attempt this Act of Faith), if successful this Act of Faith turns the model's armor save into an Invulnerable save. This Act of Faith lasts until the end of the phase.
Divine Judgement: The wrath of the Emperor fills the Sisters of Battle as they fight, driving them on to fight harder and to crush the heretics beneath their feet. Used during either player's Assault Phase as long as the unit has not attempted an Act of Faith this turn if the unit has used an Act of Faith but contains a model with the Faithful special rule it may still attempt this Act of Faith), if successful this Act of Faith all models gain the +2 Strength, but strike at -2 Initiative.
The Emperor's Mercy: Driven to end the sinful lives of their foes quickly the Sisters rush forward to strike sooner. Used at the start of the controlling player's Shooting Phase. If successful the unit may run and then shoot or shoot and then run until the end of the phase.
Feel free to tear those apart. The first two are based on 3rd edition abilities that make sense to expand out to being usable by the army, the last is to help Sisters close the gap a little since that's their biggest problem most of the time: getting into range while still being effective.
The other change of course is the deletion of all "One Use Only" on the Acts of Faith, and a change to make all Assault Phase AoF work on both Player's turns, if they haven't used their AoF for the game turn. I'm also heavily considering making all Superiors "Faithful" since they're all veteran Sisters.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Another thought is the reintroduction of Rites of Battle as a kind of random table of bonuses at the start of the game. Something (because this is just a very rough bunch of ideas I literally just came up with as I wrote this post) like:
D66......Effect
11.........Nothing
12-16...Righteous Wrath: The words of their leaders drive the army into a heightened frenzy. Infantry models with the Shield of Faith and/or Battle Hymns special rules gain Rage (Models with rage gain Rampage)
21-26...Holy Oils: Blessed oils are used to annoint the blades of the Order to better allow them to purify the taint of the enemy. Infantry models with the Shield of Faith and/or Battle Hymns special rules gain the Master-Crafted Special Rule one of their close combat weapons (models without close combat weapons ignore this effect).
31-36...Burning Censers: Holy incense is offered up to the Emperor as a prayer for protection in the battle to come. All models with the Shield of Faith and/or Battle Hymns special rules gain in the army have the Shrouded special rule for the first turn in the game from the clouds of smoke created by the incense.
41-46...Unshakable Faith: Bolstered by the hymns on their lips and the prayers in their souls the army marches on through the fire and fury of the enemy's onslaught. Infantry models with the Shield of Faith and/or Battle Hymns special rules automatically pass all Pinning checks, but may never choose to Go to Ground.
51-56...Vision of the Emperor: Blessed by a vision of the Emperor himself the Warlord is inspired to new levels of faith. The Warlord automatically passes all Faith tests they make.
61-65........The Emperor's Blessing: The army seems blessed with the divine protection of the Emperor himself as they fight through even the most fatal of wounds. All Shield of Faith saves are improved by +1
66.........Avatar of the Emperor: The Emperor himself seems to inhabit the Warlord and act through their mortal body. If the army is lead by a model with the Shield of Faith and/or Battle Hymns special rule has their Weapon Skill, Ballistic Skill and Initiative increased to 7 for the remainder of the game. Additionally they gain +1 Attack and Leadership (to a maximum of 10). These new characteristics are used for all characteristic tests that the model may have to make as well. At the end of the game if the Warlord is still alive they must pass a toughness test or be removed as a casualty. If the army is not lead by a model with the Shield of Faith and/or Battle Hymns special rule treat this result as if you had rolled 61-65 instead.
I really, really don't like the once per game per unit setup. It seems contrary to the tone and function of Acts of Faith in the older books, where they were a fungible resource you could use to make parts of your army more effective temporarily when and where you wanted them them; the Emperor's blessing pops up where it's most needed, He doesn't say "Whoops, nope, helped you lot already this battle, I'm going off to twiddle my thumbs somewhere else now".
The biggest Act missing from the list is Divine Guidance; the Sisters are supposed to be a short-ranged shooty army, leaving Rending to guns out but leaving old Hand of the Emperor in doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Reintroduction? I don't recall this mechanic, could you point me to where it started?
AnomanderRake wrote: I really, really don't like the once per game per unit setup. It seems contrary to the tone and function of Acts of Faith in the older books, where they were a fungible resource you could use to make parts of your army more effective temporarily when and where you wanted them them; the Emperor's blessing pops up where it's most needed, He doesn't say "Whoops, nope, helped you lot already this battle, I'm going off to twiddle my thumbs somewhere else now".
The biggest Act missing from the list is Divine Guidance; the Sisters are supposed to be a short-ranged shooty army, leaving Rending to guns out but leaving old Hand of the Emperor in doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
You did catch that those three AoF were in addition to unit specific ones, right? Because I kind of have Divine Guidance over on Retributors at the moment. And while I'm not against putting Rending back into a general pool, we kind of need a replacement for the Retributors that makes up for stealing their stuff.
AnomanderRake wrote: Automatically Appended Next Post: Reintroduction? I don't recall this mechanic, could you point me to where it started?
2nd Edition. You rolled Battle Rites at the start of the game and they could give the army bonuses. I don't have my 2nd Edition codex super handy right this second so I tried brainstorming some ideas I thought would fit with a format that could expand to fit more fairly easily.
Just to back up some, Help me out again why we wouldn't have land raiders? especially with the vehicles we have based off the rhino chasis. Now I'm not saying a fleet of them by any means. But make them unique, 0-1 allowed in your army. No assault cannon though as previously mentioned.
Josey4u wrote: Just to back up some, Help me out again why we wouldn't have land raiders? especially with the vehicles we have based off the rhino chasis. Now I'm not saying a fleet of them by any means. But make them unique, 0-1 allowed in your army. No assault cannon though as previously mentioned.
IDK I actually think its a good fit.
0-1 died some time ago (or else Riptides wouldn't be able to run so deep). If we want to limit them we'd have to make them "unique", but then we'd punish people with really large armies, or who want to field them in Apoc or something.
I think as long as they're fluffed as rare and sacred relics whose legacies date back a couple thousand years each then it'd be no problem. If someone wants to run three they could run three (and spend over 600 points just on mobile bricks that not even Black Templars seem to run in force).
Josey4u wrote: Just to back up some, Help me out again why we wouldn't have land raiders? especially with the vehicles we have based off the rhino chasis. Now I'm not saying a fleet of them by any means. But make them unique, 0-1 allowed in your army. No assault cannon though as previously mentioned.
IDK I actually think its a good fit.
0-1 died some time ago (or else Riptides wouldn't be able to run so deep). If we want to limit them we'd have to make them "unique", but then we'd punish people with really large armies, or who want to field them in Apoc or something.
I think as long as they're fluffed as rare and sacred relics whose legacies date back a couple thousand years each then it'd be no problem. If someone wants to run three they could run three (and spend over 600 points just on mobile bricks that not even Black Templars seem to run in force).
0-1 is on its way back in with the Relics of the Armoury rule limiting folks' Fire Raptors and Relic Predators. Call them Relics of the Armoury and make the aforementioned Order Pronatus a variant HQ choice that's the Sisters' Keeper of Relics?
Josey4u wrote: Just to back up some, Help me out again why we wouldn't have land raiders? especially with the vehicles we have based off the rhino chasis. Now I'm not saying a fleet of them by any means. But make them unique, 0-1 allowed in your army. No assault cannon though as previously mentioned.
IDK I actually think its a good fit.
0-1 died some time ago (or else Riptides wouldn't be able to run so deep). If we want to limit them we'd have to make them "unique", but then we'd punish people with really large armies, or who want to field them in Apoc or something.
I think as long as they're fluffed as rare and sacred relics whose legacies date back a couple thousand years each then it'd be no problem. If someone wants to run three they could run three (and spend over 600 points just on mobile bricks that not even Black Templars seem to run in force).
Yea I like that. I really can't see why they wouldn't have them. Power armor, bolters, but no real armor. And like you stated, its a LOT of points for those things.
AnomanderRake wrote: 0-1 is on its way back in with the Relics of the Armoury rule limiting folks' Fire Raptors and Relic Predators. Call them Relics of the Armoury and make the aforementioned Order Pronatus a variant HQ choice that's the Sisters' Keeper of Relics?
Only FW does that though, and doesn't do it in an army list but with bonus options. And unless we make those really fething special Land Raiders I don't see the point in limiting them. They're expensive, massive bricks that even Marines don't want to take multiples of, so what point would there to be to limit it in a Sisters army? Especially when you put them in the HS slot, and don't make them DTs (thus making them compete with Exorcists for space)?
AnomanderRake wrote: I really, really don't like the once per game per unit setup. It seems contrary to the tone and function of Acts of Faith in the older books, where they were a fungible resource you could use to make parts of your army more effective temporarily when and where you wanted them them; the Emperor's blessing pops up where it's most needed, He doesn't say "Whoops, nope, helped you lot already this battle, I'm going off to twiddle my thumbs somewhere else now".
The biggest Act missing from the list is Divine Guidance; the Sisters are supposed to be a short-ranged shooty army, leaving Rending to guns out but leaving old Hand of the Emperor in doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
You did catch that those three AoF were in addition to unit specific ones, right? Because I kind of have Divine Guidance over on Retributors at the moment. And while I'm not against putting Rending back into a general pool, we kind of need a replacement for the Retributors that makes up for stealing their stuff.
AnomanderRake wrote: Automatically Appended Next Post: Reintroduction? I don't recall this mechanic, could you point me to where it started?
2nd Edition. You rolled Battle Rites at the start of the game and they could give the army bonuses. I don't have my 2nd Edition codex super handy right this second so I tried brainstorming some ideas I thought would fit with a format that could expand to fit more fairly easily.
Apparently not on the Acts in addition to the unit-specific ones. I don't like the concept of unit-specific Acts at all; right now I've got the Acts set up in the common pool as follows:
Light of the Emperor: Beginning of the turn. Unit auto-regroups and may act normally. Battle Sisters units that use this Act may reroll 1s to hit in the Shooting phase this turn.
Hand of the Emperor: Beginning of either Assault phase. +2 Strength and Unwieldy to all weapons. Celestians that use this Act don't take the Unwieldy penalty from this Act and may reroll charge distances this phase.
Divine Guidance: Beginning of the Shooting phase. Unit's weapons gain Rending this Shooting phase. Retributors that use this Act may reroll 1s to hit this phase.
The Passion: Beginning of either Assault phase. +2 I. Heroines or units joined by Heroines that use this Act gain Hatred (Everyone) and Preferred Enemy (Everyone) as well.
Spirit of the Martyr: Beginning of either Assault phase or the enemy Shooting phase. Inv equal to normal armour save for the duration of the phase. Repentia who use this Act are removed from play at the end of the Fight sub-phase instead of at the Initiative step when they're killed (so they get the chance to hit back).
March of the Faithful: Beginning of the Movement phase. Move Through Cover. Celestian Command Squads additionally gain Relentless until the end of the current turn.
The Emperor's Deliverance: Beginning of the Shooting or either Assault phase. Reroll 1s to wound. Seraphim instead reroll all failed rolls to Wound.
Divine Swiftness: Beginning of the Shooting phase. Fleet. Dominions additionally may shoot and run in the same phase (either order).
Unless otherwise noted all Acts last one phase, a given unit may not use more than one Act in a phase. The limiting factor (Faith Points, methods of generation, costs) are yet to be determined; I personally like my roll-per-unit-to-generate as a limiting factor that scales with the army but I'm going to go back and do some calculations on the odds to try and figure out the inherent variability (I know it's intrinsically tied to binomial coefficients and the pool gets larger slowly and normalizes to average values exponentially but I'm still going to check).
Going to go dig up the 2e book and see what I can uncover on the subject of the Rites of Battle thing.
AnomanderRake wrote: 0-1 is on its way back in with the Relics of the Armoury rule limiting folks' Fire Raptors and Relic Predators. Call them Relics of the Armoury and make the aforementioned Order Pronatus a variant HQ choice that's the Sisters' Keeper of Relics?
Only FW does that though, and doesn't do it in an army list but with bonus options. And unless we make those really fething special Land Raiders I don't see the point in limiting them. They're expensive, massive bricks that even Marines don't want to take multiples of, so what point would there to be to limit it in a Sisters army? Especially when you put them in the HS slot, and don't make them DTs (thus making them compete with Exorcists for space)?
My ulterior motive on the subject is wanting a Land Raider with the pipe organ built into the back. I'd think the niche the Land Raiders would fill that the Sisters don't really have right now is a large assault transport; the Rhino and Rhino-chassis transports are more of generic mobility/utility vehicles and battlefield transports, not something you can run straight through something that needs breaching spraying fire all over the place without a shred of fear.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Josey4u wrote: Ugh, When the heck are we getting our plastic figs already. Now I'm really ready to finish my army.
AnomanderRake wrote: I really, really don't like the once per game per unit setup. It seems contrary to the tone and function of Acts of Faith in the older books, where they were a fungible resource you could use to make parts of your army more effective temporarily when and where you wanted them them; the Emperor's blessing pops up where it's most needed, He doesn't say "Whoops, nope, helped you lot already this battle, I'm going off to twiddle my thumbs somewhere else now".
The biggest Act missing from the list is Divine Guidance; the Sisters are supposed to be a short-ranged shooty army, leaving Rending to guns out but leaving old Hand of the Emperor in doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
You did catch that those three AoF were in addition to unit specific ones, right? Because I kind of have Divine Guidance over on Retributors at the moment. And while I'm not against putting Rending back into a general pool, we kind of need a replacement for the Retributors that makes up for stealing their stuff.
AnomanderRake wrote: Automatically Appended Next Post: Reintroduction? I don't recall this mechanic, could you point me to where it started?
2nd Edition. You rolled Battle Rites at the start of the game and they could give the army bonuses. I don't have my 2nd Edition codex super handy right this second so I tried brainstorming some ideas I thought would fit with a format that could expand to fit more fairly easily.
Apparently not on the Acts in addition to the unit-specific ones. I don't like the concept of unit-specific Acts at all; right now I've got the Acts set up in the common pool as follows:
Light of the Emperor: Beginning of the turn. Unit auto-regroups and may act normally. Battle Sisters units that use this Act may reroll 1s to hit in the Shooting phase this turn.
Hand of the Emperor: Beginning of either Assault phase. +2 Strength and Unwieldy to all weapons. Celestians that use this Act don't take the Unwieldy penalty from this Act and may reroll charge distances this phase.
Divine Guidance: Beginning of the Shooting phase. Unit's weapons gain Rending this Shooting phase. Retributors that use this Act may reroll 1s to hit this phase.
The Passion: Beginning of either Assault phase. +2 I. Heroines or units joined by Heroines that use this Act gain Hatred (Everyone) and Preferred Enemy (Everyone) as well.
Spirit of the Martyr: Beginning of either Assault phase or the enemy Shooting phase. Inv equal to normal armour save for the duration of the phase. Repentia who use this Act are removed from play at the end of the Fight sub-phase instead of at the Initiative step when they're killed (so they get the chance to hit back).
March of the Faithful: Beginning of the Movement phase. Move Through Cover. Celestian Command Squads additionally gain Relentless until the end of the current turn.
The Emperor's Deliverance: Beginning of the Shooting or either Assault phase. Reroll 1s to wound. Seraphim instead reroll all failed rolls to Wound.
Divine Swiftness: Beginning of the Shooting phase. Fleet. Dominions additionally may shoot and run in the same phase (either order).
Unless otherwise noted all Acts last one phase, a given unit may not use more than one Act in a phase. The limiting factor (Faith Points, methods of generation, costs) are yet to be determined; I personally like my roll-per-unit-to-generate as a limiting factor that scales with the army but I'm going to go back and do some calculations on the odds to try and figure out the inherent variability (I know it's intrinsically tied to binomial coefficients and the pool gets larger slowly and normalizes to average values exponentially but I'm still going to check).
Going to go dig up the 2e book and see what I can uncover on the subject of the Rites of Battle thing.
I really like the idea of unit specific Acts because they help add flavor to each unit. Without them we fall under the same issue as the Grey Knights, the same basic thing is copy and pasted with different wargear into new slots and that's basically it. We don't have a lot going on in terms of flavor and I think taking that away hurts more than helps the army.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Plastic figures seem to be slated for release when the Antichrist is born. So we might be waiting a while.
I tried to go somewhere in between the extremes with the common pool and special effects for each Act if used by the unit that's most closely tied to the Act.
AnomanderRake wrote: I tried to go somewhere in between the extremes with the common pool and special effects for each Act if used by the unit that's most closely tied to the Act.
You're still missing the point: when you take unit specific Acts away, what really makes the units different from each other? They (almost, Seraphim are exempt) all use the same models, have the same statlines, and the same equipment. The only things giving them any flavor is Scout (on Dominons) and their specific Acts of Faith. Taking those away is like scraping the toppings off a sundae: you remove what makes it different and just make it vanilla.
AnomanderRake wrote: I tried to go somewhere in between the extremes with the common pool and special effects for each Act if used by the unit that's most closely tied to the Act.
You're still missing the point: when you take unit specific Acts away, what really makes the units different from each other? They (almost, Seraphim are exempt) all use the same models, have the same statlines, and the same equipment. The only things giving them any flavor is Scout (on Dominons) and their specific Acts of Faith. Taking those away is like scraping the toppings off a sundae: you remove what makes it different and just make it vanilla.
I could ask you the same question of Space Marines. What differentiates a Tactical Marine, an Assault Marine, a Devastator, and a Veteran beyond what gear they get?
That said under my system everyone still has a unique Act, it's just that everyone else gets access to a weaker version of the Act. The unit-specific variations are a major differentiator; regular Sisters' status as general line troops is reinforced by their ranged fire buff coming out of the generic morale buff (so they require fewer Faith Points to keep in the fight than everyone else), Repentia do suicide missions very well with the strikes-after-dying variant on Spirit of the Martyr even though everyone else can use Spirit to be briefly tougher, Seraphim hit like a ton of bricks when they get up close with reroll all Wounds (150% as effective against T4 with flamers and bolt pistols), et cetera. Beyond that the difference between "one per five or two per five of these three weapons that are the same across all units?" is a little different from "one per five of two special and three heavy, or two per five of two special, or two per five of three heavy", so the wargear selections between Dominions, Sisters, and Retributors are a ways off the blandness of GK units.
It took some digging to find them online, but I found the old Sacred Rites:
Special Rules
Some Adeptus Ministorum characters may lead a squad they accompany in the Sacred Rites. Roll a D6 on the Sacred Rites table to find out what effect the prayers have on the squad. The following modifiers apply and are cumulative with each other ( a Canoness in an army with a psyker adds a total of +2 to the roll, for instance):
- A Canoness adds +3 to the roll.
- A Veteran Sister Superior adds +2 to the roll.
- A Sister Superior adds +1 to the roll.
- A Missionary Major Hero adds +1 to the roll.
- If there is a psyker in the same army as the Ecclesiarchy, all roll for Sacred Rites suffer a -1 penalty.
Note: If a Canoness, Missionary Hero, or Missionary Major Hero leads a squad in the Sacred Rites, the character must be set up within squad coherency of the unit at the start of the battle. If the character leading the squad in the Sacred rites subsequently leaves the unit, any benefit from the Sacred Rites is lost for the rest of the battle-the unit will think they are being abandoned by the Emperor! The unit loses its Sacred rites if another character later leads the unit. The results of the Sacred Rites apply to all members of the squad and any characters who start the battle in squad coherency with them, including the character leading the Rites. Adeptus Ministorum characters cannot join squads of Space Marines, Adeptus Mechanicus and squads led by an Inquisitor, so they may not lead these squads in the Sacred Rites. Adeptus Ministorum characters also refuse to lead the mutated Ogryns and Ratlings in the Sacred Rites, though they can join these units.
D6 Result
1 No Effect
2 The squad is immune to fear and terror for the duration of the battle. See the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.
3 The squad becomes subject to frenzy. See the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook for details.
4 The squad adds +1 to its Leadership for the duration of the battle. This cannot take its Leadership value over 10.
5 The squad hates the enemy. See the Warhammer rulebook for details.
6 Each member of the squad has a psychic save of 4+ on a D6. Note that this is not a nullify-roll for each model: on a 4+ it is unaffected. Some of the squad may be affected by the psychic power while others aren't.
7 The squad automatically passes all psychology and Break tests it is required to make.
8 The squad is so determined to smite their enemies that it pays no heed to their own safety. The squad may ignore the Choosing a Target rules and fire at any enemy squad or vehicles you wish. The squad cannot pick out enemy characters unless they are more than 2" from a squad and the closest target, as detailed in the Heroic Characters section of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.
9 Once in the battle, at the end of the shooting phase, the squad may fire again. Weapons that are jammed or recharging may not be fired and will stay jammed or recharging until the next shooting phase as normal.
ClockworkZion wrote: It took some digging to find them online, but I found the old Sacred Rites:
Special Rules
Some Adeptus Ministorum characters may lead a squad they accompany in the Sacred Rites. Roll a D6 on the Sacred Rites table to find out what effect the prayers have on the squad. The following modifiers apply and are cumulative with each other ( a Canoness in an army with a psyker adds a total of +2 to the roll, for instance):
- A Canoness adds +3 to the roll.
- A Veteran Sister Superior adds +2 to the roll.
- A Sister Superior adds +1 to the roll.
- A Missionary Major Hero adds +1 to the roll.
- If there is a psyker in the same army as the Ecclesiarchy, all roll for Sacred Rites suffer a -1 penalty.
Note: If a Canoness, Missionary Hero, or Missionary Major Hero leads a squad in the Sacred Rites, the character must be set up within squad coherency of the unit at the start of the battle. If the character leading the squad in the Sacred rites subsequently leaves the unit, any benefit from the Sacred Rites is lost for the rest of the battle-the unit will think they are being abandoned by the Emperor! The unit loses its Sacred rites if another character later leads the unit. The results of the Sacred Rites apply to all members of the squad and any characters who start the battle in squad coherency with them, including the character leading the Rites. Adeptus Ministorum characters cannot join squads of Space Marines, Adeptus Mechanicus and squads led by an Inquisitor, so they may not lead these squads in the Sacred Rites. Adeptus Ministorum characters also refuse to lead the mutated Ogryns and Ratlings in the Sacred Rites, though they can join these units.
D6 Result
1 No Effect
2 The squad is immune to fear and terror for the duration of the battle. See the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.
3 The squad becomes subject to frenzy. See the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook for details.
4 The squad adds +1 to its Leadership for the duration of the battle. This cannot take its Leadership value over 10.
5 The squad hates the enemy. See the Warhammer rulebook for details.
6 Each member of the squad has a psychic save of 4+ on a D6. Note that this is not a nullify-roll for each model: on a 4+ it is unaffected. Some of the squad may be affected by the psychic power while others aren't.
7 The squad automatically passes all psychology and Break tests it is required to make.
8 The squad is so determined to smite their enemies that it pays no heed to their own safety. The squad may ignore the Choosing a Target rules and fire at any enemy squad or vehicles you wish. The squad cannot pick out enemy characters unless they are more than 2" from a squad and the closest target, as detailed in the Heroic Characters section of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.
9 Once in the battle, at the end of the shooting phase, the squad may fire again. Weapons that are jammed or recharging may not be fired and will stay jammed or recharging until the next shooting phase as normal.
Much prefer the current Codex system - it tends to get me what I want when I want it
ClockworkZion wrote: It took some digging to find them online, but I found the old Sacred Rites:
Special Rules
Some Adeptus Ministorum characters may lead a squad they accompany in the Sacred Rites. Roll a D6 on the Sacred Rites table to find out what effect the prayers have on the squad. The following modifiers apply and are cumulative with each other ( a Canoness in an army with a psyker adds a total of +2 to the roll, for instance):
- A Canoness adds +3 to the roll.
- A Veteran Sister Superior adds +2 to the roll.
- A Sister Superior adds +1 to the roll.
- A Missionary Major Hero adds +1 to the roll.
- If there is a psyker in the same army as the Ecclesiarchy, all roll for Sacred Rites suffer a -1 penalty.
Note: If a Canoness, Missionary Hero, or Missionary Major Hero leads a squad in the Sacred Rites, the character must be set up within squad coherency of the unit at the start of the battle. If the character leading the squad in the Sacred rites subsequently leaves the unit, any benefit from the Sacred Rites is lost for the rest of the battle-the unit will think they are being abandoned by the Emperor! The unit loses its Sacred rites if another character later leads the unit. The results of the Sacred Rites apply to all members of the squad and any characters who start the battle in squad coherency with them, including the character leading the Rites. Adeptus Ministorum characters cannot join squads of Space Marines, Adeptus Mechanicus and squads led by an Inquisitor, so they may not lead these squads in the Sacred Rites. Adeptus Ministorum characters also refuse to lead the mutated Ogryns and Ratlings in the Sacred Rites, though they can join these units.
D6 Result
1 No Effect
2 The squad is immune to fear and terror for the duration of the battle. See the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.
3 The squad becomes subject to frenzy. See the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook for details.
4 The squad adds +1 to its Leadership for the duration of the battle. This cannot take its Leadership value over 10.
5 The squad hates the enemy. See the Warhammer rulebook for details.
6 Each member of the squad has a psychic save of 4+ on a D6. Note that this is not a nullify-roll for each model: on a 4+ it is unaffected. Some of the squad may be affected by the psychic power while others aren't.
7 The squad automatically passes all psychology and Break tests it is required to make.
8 The squad is so determined to smite their enemies that it pays no heed to their own safety. The squad may ignore the Choosing a Target rules and fire at any enemy squad or vehicles you wish. The squad cannot pick out enemy characters unless they are more than 2" from a squad and the closest target, as detailed in the Heroic Characters section of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.
9 Once in the battle, at the end of the shooting phase, the squad may fire again. Weapons that are jammed or recharging may not be fired and will stay jammed or recharging until the next shooting phase as normal.
Much prefer the current Codex system - it tends to get me what I want when I want it
Oh very much agreed. But I wouldn't mind this coming back as an army wide thing of some kind that exists outside of the AoF. Kinda like the Warp Storm table or Chaos Boons table, only toned down and providing a small bonus army wide at most. I wouldn't mind seeing it return, as long as it doesn't replace the AoF.
I feel like that mechanic might be best set up as the Sisters' Warlord Traits table instead of a separate thing, if the bonuses are minor, to preserve simplicity.
Automatically Appended Next Post: My next concern is on how to work Martyrdom back into the rules; anyone have any suggestions?
AnomanderRake wrote: I feel like that mechanic might be best set up as the Sisters' Warlord Traits table instead of a separate thing, if the bonuses are minor, to preserve simplicity.
Well I did have a bonus listed to make the Warlord into a living Saint (stat wise at least).
And Warlord Traits don't typically effect the whole army, the original Sacred Rites table basically did.
AnomanderRake wrote: Automatically Appended Next Post: My next concern is on how to work Martyrdom back into the rules; anyone have any suggestions?
Deny VP?
Automatically Appended Next Post: That or a unit that loses a model with Martyrdom automatically passes their next Faith Test.
AnomanderRake wrote: I feel like that mechanic might be best set up as the Sisters' Warlord Traits table instead of a separate thing, if the bonuses are minor, to preserve simplicity.
Well I did have a bonus listed to make the Warlord into a living Saint (stat wise at least).
And Warlord Traits don't typically effect the whole army, the original Sacred Rites table basically did.
AnomanderRake wrote: Automatically Appended Next Post: My next concern is on how to work Martyrdom back into the rules; anyone have any suggestions?
Deny VP?
Automatically Appended Next Post: That or a unit that loses a model with Martyrdom automatically passes their next Faith Test.
Some do affect everyone.
Denying VP for killing someone with Martyrdom feels like it upsets the paradigm of the game too much; if the Sisters army can't give up First Blood they have an edge. The 'unit that loses a model auto-passes the next Faith Test' is a better plan; my initial theory was something along the lines of Price of Failure/inverted Power from Pain where you pick a unit that could see the unit with Martyrdom that just got destroyed and give them some benefit.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On the subject of Chapter-Tactics-like setups for the six major Orders I've got a short list of ideas based on my research but I'd like to see if I got my impressions of the Orders correct beforehand.
Order of the Ebon Chalice: Traditionalists, tend to field balanced lists with no Allies and an emphasis on infantry over vehicles. Not sure about their unique trait but reroll Shield of Faith/Deny the Witch both seem like directions I'd take that.
Order of Our Martyred Lady: Hardasses, unusually driven to avenge the fallen, no particular list-building theories. Unique trait is probably going to have something to do with Martyrdom; apply the benefit to multiple units that saw the unit die, that sort of thing.
Order of the Sacred Rose: Cool-headed and deliberate, prefer gunfire to melee. My best idea for their unique trait is rerolling Snap Shots; they're better at keeping their heads in bad situations (vehicle shaken)/calculating when long shots are worth it (moving with heavy weapons) than their more impulsive Sisters.
Order of the Bloody Rose: Ferocious, prefer mobility/melee. Without messing with the paradigm of the game too much I'm thinking reroll 1s to hit in the turn they disembark from their transports or the ability to disembark from a transport that moved 12" (with some limitation, Dangerous Terrain test?) are the most likely directions to go.
Order of the Argent Shroud: Pragmatists, friendlier to the rest of the Imperium, no particular tendency with list-building but more characterful to run Allies here. May use Acts of Faith while joined to/by a friendly non-psyker character is probably too open to abuse but I don't honestly have any other characterful ideas for them.
Order of the Valorous Heart: Hyper-pious and demand penance for the slightest of deviations from doctrine, probably have more Repentia than is healthy. Special benefits from Martyrdom if it's a Repentia unit being destroyed step on the Order of Our Martyred Lady's toes a bit, I was thinking of including Repentia as a 0-1 unit that doesn't take up a slot but is otherwise treated as Troops and then taking away the limitation for Valorous Heart armies, but I'm hesitant to go that far. Maybe let Repentia have Objective Secured for them and not otherwise?
Beyond that the only major question I've come across is the treatment of generic Living Saints; the prior version of my rules presented them as Independent Characters using a profile based on Saint Celestine, but I'm debating whether the Sisters need a toe-to-toe beatstick to help them stand on their own, and with that in mind whether the Living Saint as a Monstrous Creature with higher S/T is worth considering (My only source for anything like this is Soulstorm; a bad source on anything, I know, but it's a compelling idea).
We need to distinguish between "generic Living Saint" and "Saint Celestine with the serial number filed off" (which seems to be what Soulstorm did, not that I've played it). Wasn't Sebastian Thor also considered a Living Saint? There are plenty of possibilities beyond "flying beatstick." Leadership and Faith boosts would be very characterful, for example.
SisterSydney wrote: We need to distinguish between "generic Living Saint" and "Saint Celestine with the serial number filed off" (which seems to be what Soulstorm did, not that I've played it). Wasn't Sebastian Thor also considered a Living Saint? There are plenty of possibilities beyond "flying beatstick." Leadership and Faith boosts would be very characterful, for example.
If you take a look at my rules made for 6e (there should be a link earlier in this thread) I used the base statline but you could field one on foot, with a jump pack, with a bike (still not sure about the fate of the bike Sisters), and with a variety of weapons including heavy weapons, plus there's a set of unique skills (+1 to Faith Point generation rolls (system tentative, this one may not survive), enemies charge her unit as if through Dangerous Terrain, Fearless bubble, etc).
Automatically Appended Next Post: They were supposed to be a character tier above and beyond the Canoness, with better stats and some tricks but similar options and battlefield role.
SisterSydney wrote: We need to distinguish between "generic Living Saint" and "Saint Celestine with the serial number filed off" (which seems to be what Soulstorm did, not that I've played it). Wasn't Sebastian Thor also considered a Living Saint? There are plenty of possibilities beyond "flying beatstick." Leadership and Faith boosts would be very characterful, for example.
I had a concept of a Generic Living Saint that was basically like a Pheonix Lord. Standard Statline and wargear base and you then got to essentially go nuts and customize them into the (expensive) brick of your dreams.
Honestly, consider I'm pretty sure that Celestine is going to end up parked in the LoW section (unless Sisters get something REALLY freaking awesome in their next eventual codex update (anyone else feeling a lot like Nids at this point: updates every edition (since 5th) and they don't fix things but kind of feel like they're making them worse? Or is it just me?), I think filing her serial number off might be a bit much. That is unless we swing it the other way and file her serial numbers off, but she's the only Living Saint with their own Act of Faith which would be enough to justify her LoW status (especially if she finally gets EW. Who wants an unkillable Flying Nun?).
My homebrewed Living Saints... one of them uses the rules for Uriah Jacobus (she's a farm girl, hence the shotgun), while the other is a crazy pistol-ninja (rules: human with BS 5 and a 4++ dodge, rending, can fire her laspistol three times each shooting phase at different targets).
SisterSydney wrote: We need to distinguish between "generic Living Saint" and "Saint Celestine with the serial number filed off" (which seems to be what Soulstorm did, not that I've played it). Wasn't Sebastian Thor also considered a Living Saint? There are plenty of possibilities beyond "flying beatstick." Leadership and Faith boosts would be very characterful, for example.
I had a concept of a Generic Living Saint that was basically like a Pheonix Lord. Standard Statline and wargear base and you then got to essentially go nuts and customize them into the (expensive) brick of your dreams.
Honestly, consider I'm pretty sure that Celestine is going to end up parked in the LoW section (unless Sisters get something REALLY freaking awesome in their next eventual codex update (anyone else feeling a lot like Nids at this point: updates every edition (since 5th) and they don't fix things but kind of feel like they're making them worse? Or is it just me?), I think filing her serial number off might be a bit much. That is unless we swing it the other way and file her serial numbers off, but she's the only Living Saint with their own Act of Faith which would be enough to justify her LoW status (especially if she finally gets EW. Who wants an unkillable Flying Nun?).
Or go to both extremes. Living Saints as S/T3 ICs in regular HQ and Ascended Living Saints as S/T6 FMCs in Lords of War.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SisterSydney wrote: Ha! These saints please me. Now I would someone to stat up Summer Glau as River Tam as a Repentia, please.
I'd peg her as a character Death-Cult Assassin, personally.
So last time I worked on that original update I didn't do a lot of points chopping. I mean, I did some (mostly on things like Power Weapons and other options like that), but I did very little of it to the overall army. As such here's the deal: we all know the army is largely overcosted for infantry models all over the place, as such I say all non-HQ infantry models (save for the Sororitas Command Squad) gets dropped 1ppm, to include additional models (keeping the same 10point upgrade cost for Veteran Sisters Superiors though).
That'd mean:
10 point BSS 12 point Celestians
13 point Repentia (I almost want them to be 12 but they puree Tact Marine squads if they catch them so 13 is about right at most)
14 point Seraphim
11 point Dominions (the only reason they don't get to be 10 is because they have Scout)
10 point Retributors
I almost want to knock 5-10 more points of Penitent Engines (to put them at 60-65) but I'm not really sure that it'd make them feel worth taking.
People generally consider the Tauros Venator to be overcosted at 55 points because of its fragility, so I'm not sure. I don't think it's too cheap though!
Furyou Miko wrote: People generally consider the Tauros Venator to be overcosted at 55 points because of its fragility, so I'm not sure. I don't think it's too cheap though!
Right now it's 60ppm with a twin-linked multi-laser or 75ppm with a twin-linked lascannon; the only vehicles of comparable loadout and role I can think of off the top of my head are the Land Speeder and the Vyper. Twin-linked BS3 is slightly better than a single BS4 gun, but the Land Speeder and the Vyper can both get more/more versatile guns, are cheaper starting, and have Jink saves; I'd probably drop it to 50 starting with the multilaser and 60-65 with the lascannon.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ClockworkZion wrote: So last time I worked on that original update I didn't do a lot of points chopping. I mean, I did some (mostly on things like Power Weapons and other options like that), but I did very little of it to the overall army. As such here's the deal: we all know the army is largely overcosted for infantry models all over the place, as such I say all non-HQ infantry models (save for the Sororitas Command Squad) gets dropped 1ppm, to include additional models (keeping the same 10point upgrade cost for Veteran Sisters Superiors though).
That'd mean:
10 point BSS 12 point Celestians
13 point Repentia (I almost want them to be 12 but they puree Tact Marine squads if they catch them so 13 is about right at most)
14 point Seraphim
11 point Dominions (the only reason they don't get to be 10 is because they have Scout)
10 point Retributors
I almost want to knock 5-10 more points of Penitent Engines (to put them at 60-65) but I'm not really sure that it'd make them feel worth taking.
Comparing across books with the concepts I have right now a Battle Sisters squad loses a point of WS, S, T, and I over an identically armed Tactical Marine and trades Chapter Tactics, ATSKNF, and a more versatile weapon loadout for the Shield of Faith and access to Acts of Faith. I might keep them at 11ppm with the increased versatility of my Acts system, actually.
Also considering allowing two models in a regular Battle Sisters squad to take two heavy, two special, or one of each instead of a special or a special and a heavy. Any remarks?
AnomanderRake wrote: Also considering allowing two models in a regular Battle Sisters squad to take two heavy, two special, or one of each instead of a special or a special and a heavy. Any remarks?
I went with 1 special at 5 models, 1 special or heavy at 10, another special at 15 and another special or heavy at 20.
AnomanderRake wrote: Also considering allowing two models in a regular Battle Sisters squad to take two heavy, two special, or one of each instead of a special or a special and a heavy. Any remarks?
I went with 1 special at 5 models, 1 special or heavy at 10, another special at 15 and another special or heavy at 20.
I like the concept of rewarding people for playing a unit of over ten models, may appropriate something like this.
AnomanderRake wrote: Also considering allowing two models in a regular Battle Sisters squad to take two heavy, two special, or one of each instead of a special or a special and a heavy. Any remarks?
I went with 1 special at 5 models, 1 special or heavy at 10, another special at 15 and another special or heavy at 20.
I like the concept of rewarding people for playing a unit of over ten models, may appropriate something like this.
Also considering allowing two models in a regular Battle Sisters squad to take two heavy, two special, or one of each instead of a special or a special and a heavy. Any remarks?
Well I tend to take only Melta guns or Flamers so I would like it
Is there any fluffy reason the Sisters would use larger squads especially given they tend to operate using 10 person vehicles??
Also considering allowing two models in a regular Battle Sisters squad to take two heavy, two special, or one of each instead of a special or a special and a heavy. Any remarks?
Well I tend to take only Melta guns or Flamers so I would like it
Is there any fluffy reason the Sisters would use larger squads especially given they tend to operate using 10 person vehicles??
Any fluffy reason why they wouldn't?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also BSS have been able to take up to 20 models as far back as at least C:WH, so I'd say it's fluffy.
Also considering allowing two models in a regular Battle Sisters squad to take two heavy, two special, or one of each instead of a special or a special and a heavy. Any remarks?
Well I tend to take only Melta guns or Flamers so I would like it
Is there any fluffy reason the Sisters would use larger squads especially given they tend to operate using 10 person vehicles??
Any fluffy reason why they wouldn't?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also BSS have been able to take up to 20 models as far back as at least C:WH, so I'd say it's fluffy.
Well my point was they operate with rhinos and their variants as standard so seem to be based around 5-10 woman squads? I just wondered if there was anything said anywhere about larger squads being part of their specific fighting style?
It look more impressive when you march on the enemy? Maybe it's the result of a Superior covering down on a squad who doesn't currently have a leader, or when they have a lot of new Sisters who need to be trained.
Also considering allowing two models in a regular Battle Sisters squad to take two heavy, two special, or one of each instead of a special or a special and a heavy. Any remarks?
Well I tend to take only Melta guns or Flamers so I would like it
Is there any fluffy reason the Sisters would use larger squads especially given they tend to operate using 10 person vehicles??
Rules-wise it's a grandfather-clause thing more than anything else; they've been 5-20 or 10-20 in every book, so we're rolling with it.
Lore-wise I'd think it's because they're a step in between the Space Marines (5-10 man squads) and the Imperial Guard (25-100 man platoons) on the general spectrum of tactical flexibility, they're not elite rapid-response forces like the Space Marines or Veteran Guard armies, but at the same time they're not large unwieldy garrison forces with immense quantities of bodies to draw on. They're a militarily-independent force that garrisons their own outposts all over the place so they tend to have more bodies on hand than Space Marines who sit on their asses until they need to make a dramatic entrance do, but they're more elite and expensive to equip than the Guard. (To anyone who's about to jump down my throat on this one the Sisters can and do field elite rapid-response forces, but it's not the core purpose of their army in the same way it is for Marines, Elysians, Eldar, and the like)
That said I do want to push for larger-capacity transport vehicles to accommodate fifteen or twenty-model Sisters units; it's a prime mover behind wanting Sororitas Land Raiders and basing the Erelim (the name comes from MrSako's Sororitas Stormraven but I'm appropriating it) off of the Storm Eagle in addition to working out a Rhino Advancer. Really large units (twenty-model Guardian, Kabalite Warrior, Chaos Marine, etc.) units don't see play in Codexes that don't have the transports for them because a unit with a transport is tougher, faster, and overall more valuable as a unit than either the unit or the transport would be alone; twenty-model 30k squads do see play because the transport platforms are available there. (This is be a gross oversimplification, there are other factors that include the fact that a twenty-man Tactical Squad in 30k is fifty points cheaper than two ten-man Tactical Squads, but I'm focusing on the issues that are easier for me to address when writing a 7e Sisters book)
SisterSydney wrote: We need to distinguish between "generic Living Saint" and "Saint Celestine with the serial number filed off" (which seems to be what Soulstorm did, not that I've played it). Wasn't Sebastian Thor also considered a Living Saint? There are plenty of possibilities beyond "flying beatstick." Leadership and Faith boosts would be very characterful, for example.
I had a concept of a Generic Living Saint that was basically like a Pheonix Lord. Standard Statline and wargear base and you then got to essentially go nuts and customize them into the (expensive) brick of your dreams.
Honestly, consider I'm pretty sure that Celestine is going to end up parked in the LoW section (unless Sisters get something REALLY freaking awesome in their next eventual codex update (anyone else feeling a lot like Nids at this point: updates every edition (since 5th) and they don't fix things but kind of feel like they're making them worse? Or is it just me?), I think filing her serial number off might be a bit much. That is unless we swing it the other way and file her serial numbers off, but she's the only Living Saint with their own Act of Faith which would be enough to justify her LoW status (especially if she finally gets EW. Who wants an unkillable Flying Nun?).
^THIS.
I worry that; No new figs, Only a digital codex, and the overall GW money making mindset of 'big sellers get the models' I get worried that we get the back burner sometimes. But that may not be true, it could just be my perception of the release schedule.
Also considering allowing two models in a regular Battle Sisters squad to take two heavy, two special, or one of each instead of a special or a special and a heavy. Any remarks?
Well I tend to take only Melta guns or Flamers so I would like it
Is there any fluffy reason the Sisters would use larger squads especially given they tend to operate using 10 person vehicles??
Rules-wise it's a grandfather-clause thing more than anything else; they've been 5-20 or 10-20 in every book, so we're rolling with it.
Lore-wise I'd think it's because they're a step in between the Space Marines (5-10 man squads) and the Imperial Guard (25-100 man platoons) on the general spectrum of tactical flexibility, they're not elite rapid-response forces like the Space Marines or Veteran Guard armies, but at the same time they're not large unwieldy garrison forces with immense quantities of bodies to draw on. They're a militarily-independent force that garrisons their own outposts all over the place so they tend to have more bodies on hand than Space Marines who sit on their asses until they need to make a dramatic entrance do, but they're more elite and expensive to equip than the Guard. (To anyone who's about to jump down my throat on this one the Sisters can and do field elite rapid-response forces, but it's not the core purpose of their army in the same way it is for Marines, Elysians, Eldar, and the like)
That said I do want to push for larger-capacity transport vehicles to accommodate fifteen or twenty-model Sisters units; it's a prime mover behind wanting Sororitas Land Raiders and basing the Erelim (the name comes from MrSako's Sororitas Stormraven but I'm appropriating it) off of the Storm Eagle in addition to working out a Rhino Advancer. Really large units (twenty-model Guardian, Kabalite Warrior, Chaos Marine, etc.) units don't see play in Codexes that don't have the transports for them because a unit with a transport is tougher, faster, and overall more valuable as a unit than either the unit or the transport would be alone; twenty-model 30k squads do see play because the transport platforms are available there. (This is be a gross oversimplification, there are other factors that include the fact that a twenty-man Tactical Squad in 30k is fifty points cheaper than two ten-man Tactical Squads, but I'm focusing on the issues that are easier for me to address when writing a 7e Sisters book)
All of it. I really think for whatever reason, GW really left out a chance to add some flavor into the SoB.
There is a lot of places they could go, and honestly, the ideas all posted over the last 4 pages have been leaps and bounds ahead of of what we have now. I am not complaining about what he have. The AoF are something cool that are definitely us.
Vehicles, and units I think fall short. The addition of/or hybrid of marine vehicles makes sense to me. I like the storm raven idea. I'm guessing here, but what is it, 20 years since a model update?
I'm very thankful for threads like this. It means we aren't alone in keeping this army from going the way of the chaos dwarves of WHFB
Ten years, we got a few new kits with the Witch Hunter book. Sisters have only been around for 16 years
In their original release, Sisters were squads of 5, and could then add a special weapon (extra model) and/or a heavy weapon (another extra model), giving a squad size of 5-7.
Then the 3e rulebook came out and jumped it to 10-20 squads, presumably to differentiate them from Space Marines (who at that point, had nothing like chapter tactics or anything and barely had ATSKNF).
My presumption is that, whenever I see a footslogging 20-Sister squad, there are two Rhinos parked safely offboard, and it's actually two squads that combined. Presumably they usually pair up their most experienced squad leader with their most inexperienced (or most dead), hence there's only one Superior in game-mechanical terms.
Also Summer Glau as River Tam is totally a Repentia, not a DCA, because she doesn't wear shoes.
So a thought: instead of having Holy Promethium re-roll wounds/armor pen rolls of a 1, I'm thinking that it gives the Soul Blaze special rule. Any complaints with this idea?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Furyou Miko wrote: Ten years, we got a few new kits with the Witch Hunter book. Sisters have only been around for 16 years
In their original release, Sisters were squads of 5, and could then add a special weapon (extra model) and/or a heavy weapon (another extra model), giving a squad size of 5-7.
Then the 3e rulebook came out and jumped it to 10-20 squads, presumably to differentiate them from Space Marines (who at that point, had nothing like chapter tactics or anything and barely had ATSKNF).
We also lost that delicious T4 then too. D:
Automatically Appended Next Post: So to put Kyrinov, Praxedus and Helen back in the army I'm cutting out the Sceptre of Vengeance and the Mace of Valaan. Now I plan to add "Bane of Heretics" (a combi-Flamer relic that gets a bonus against any models in a CSM or Traitor Guard army), but I'm drawing a blank on what else to slip in there. We've got a sword, a book, litanies, a cloak and a mantle as well but we're short something.
SisterSydney wrote: My presumption is that, whenever I see a footslogging 20-Sister squad, there are two Rhinos parked safely offboard, and it's actually two squads that combined. Presumably they usually pair up their most experienced squad leader with their most inexperienced (or most dead), hence there's only one Superior in game-mechanical terms.
Also Summer Glau as River Tam is totally a Repentia, not a DCA, because she doesn't wear shoes.
Hard to argue she's got an Unwieldy broadsword as opposed to two weapons, I6, and Uncanny Reflexes is all I'm saying.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Zion, my complaint is that Soul Blaze is a bad rule and shouldn't exist. I'd go +1S to flame weapons seeing as that doesn't take anything into silly territory (if we do put Relic Predators with Flamestorm Cannons in they might just not get the option)
I was considering Soul Blaze over re-rolls just because lighting gak on fire is something Sisters should be good at.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Plus +1S was the trick of Psyflame ammo and I don't know if it really fits an upgrade that basically is "promethium that's been prayed over".
SisterSydney wrote: My presumption is that, whenever I see a footslogging 20-Sister squad, there are two Rhinos parked safely offboard, and it's actually two squads that combined. Presumably they usually pair up their most experienced squad leader with their most inexperienced (or most dead), hence there's only one Superior in game-mechanical terms.
Also Summer Glau as River Tam is totally a Repentia, not a DCA, because she doesn't wear shoes.
Hard to argue she's got an Unwieldy broadsword as opposed to two weapons, I6, and Uncanny Reflexes is all I'm saying.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Zion, my complaint is that Soul Blaze is a bad rule and shouldn't exist. I'd go +1S to flame weapons seeing as that doesn't take anything into silly territory (if we do put Relic Predators with Flamestorm Cannons in they might just not get the option)
I had a thought, maybe nicking the 30k deflagrate rule and make it so unsaved wounds from Holy Promethium generate new wounds (the new wounds don't generate a 3rd set of wounds though).
Automatically Appended Next Post: I mean deflagrate does mean "to burn rapidly with intense heat and sparks being given off ".
Josey4u wrote: Can we do SOMETHING with an inferno pistol?
Like what? It's a melta pistol. I don't know how it could really become better because if we up the range then we need to up the cost to compete with the meltagun (especially since it gives an extra attack when paired with a CCW).
Oh, thinking about the Blade of Admonition, I'm looking at upping it's cost to 30 and giving it Killing Blow to fit the fluff that it may have been Dominica's sword (since she beheaded him in a single stroke).
I'm giving thought to giving Seraphim melee attacks with different sorts of pistols, but they'd be the only folks besides Cypher to gain melee benefit from a plasma pistol. Any remarks?
AnomanderRake wrote: I'm giving thought to giving Seraphim melee attacks with different sorts of pistols, but they'd be the only folks besides Cypher to gain melee benefit from a plasma pistol. Any remarks?
Believe me I've been there too, but I never really could get it to feel like it was fairly balanced or anything so I gave up on it.
Any complaints about Holy Promethium having Deflagerate as a rule? It'd make Sisters better at anti-horde, something they are REALLY bad at currently.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So here's that Relic Combi-Flamer I was talking about earlier:
Heretic’s Bane: The Heretic’s Bane is a special Bolter with a built in Flamer renowned for purifying countless heretics. It can be fired using either of the following profiles each turn:
Range....Strength....AP....Type
24”...........5.................4......Rapid Fire, Heretic’s Bane
..-..............5.................4.....Template, Heretic’s Bane
Heretic’s Bane: Against models in a Traitor Guard or Chaos Space Marine army (to include “count-as” forces using other books but are themed to be followers of Chaos. If you are unsure if this applies talk to your opponent before hand) the strength and AP of the weapon is improved by 1 and it gains the Shred and Rending special rules.
I know it is VERY situational, which is why I made it so the Flamer isn't a one shot, just so it has utility outside of being used against CSM/Traitor Guard armies. It also runs 25 points. If it looks under cost I can go up.
So in other news as I'm working, I've moved the Palatine to being a single 25pts HQ using the same statline I already had for her, but with the same options as the Canoness (but limited to a single Relic as before). "Pride of the Order" is now her Act of Faith which is a softer version of the one I gave the Canoness which can only affect a single eligible unit in 6" instead of all eligible units in 12".
I'd specify "any models in an army including detachments from Codex: Chaos Space Marines or Codex: Chaos Daemons", even with traitors there's a degree of far-gone that's unacceptable and a degree to which redemption is still possible.
I don't know that 25pts is a fair cost; for 30pts CSM can get a 4/3 12" Torrent flamer, which seems vastly better on all fronts. Maybe 20pts?
AnomanderRake wrote: I'm giving thought to giving Seraphim melee attacks with different sorts of pistols, but they'd be the only folks besides Cypher to gain melee benefit from a plasma pistol. Any remarks?
Believe me I've been there too, but I never really could get it to feel like it was fairly balanced or anything so I gave up on it.
Any complaints about Holy Promethium having Deflagerate as a rule? It'd make Sisters better at anti-horde, something they are REALLY bad at currently.
I feel like anti-horde isn't where Sisters struggle given the quantity of flamers they can bring to the table, honestly. Straight-up lifting Deflagrate would look weird lore-wise, but I'm not sure about a good replacement.
As to the pistols two hand flamers would probably be +2A instead of +1 for two close combat weapons, two inferno pistols could count as meltabombs, and two plasma pistols could be half Attacks at AP2 with Gets Hot in melee, nothing too excessive.
AnomanderRake wrote: I'd specify "any models in an army including detachments from Codex: Chaos Space Marines or Codex: Chaos Daemons", even with traitors there's a degree of far-gone that's unacceptable and a degree to which redemption is still possible.
That might work I think.
AnomanderRake wrote: I don't know that 25pts is a fair cost; for 30pts CSM can get a 4/3 12" Torrent flamer, which seems vastly better on all fronts. Maybe 20pts?
Very true. 20 would probably be more fair for sure.
ClockworkZion wrote: Any complaints about Holy Promethium having Deflagerate as a rule? It'd make Sisters better at anti-horde, something they are REALLY bad at currently.
I feel like anti-horde isn't where Sisters struggle given the quantity of flamers they can bring to the table, honestly. Straight-up lifting Deflagrate would look weird lore-wise, but I'm not sure about a good replacement.
Speaking from experience, against horde armies Sisters suffer. Even having nothing but templates just doesn't help the army thin their ranks enough to make it work. Maybe it's just our lack of large blast, but being able to deal extra wounds (especially when being charged) would help.
And considering what Deflagrate actually means I really kind of think it fits. I mean we could just call the rule "Immolate" and have it do the same thing. I don't know, I was just looking at some alternatives to just re-rolls.
AnomanderRake wrote: As to the pistols two hand flamers would probably be +2A instead of +1 for two close combat weapons, two inferno pistols could count as meltabombs, and two plasma pistols could be half Attacks at AP2 with Gets Hot in melee, nothing too excessive.
Like I've said, it's hard to balance, and when you add a close combat bonus you have to rework points and then that gets pretty messy honestly.
Anyways, here's were I stand on the generic Saint so far :
SAINT
Profile...WS...BS...S...T...W...I...A...Ld...Sv Saint.......6......6.....3...3....3...6...3...10...3+
Unit Type: Infantry (Character)
Unit Composition: 1 Living Saint
Points Cost: 75 Points
Wargear:......................Special Rules:
Power Armor ...............Act of Faith
Bolt Pistol ....................Faithful
Chainsword.................Independent Character
Frag Grenade..............Martyrdom
Krak Grenades...........Shield of Faith
Rosarius......................Stubborn
Act of Faith
The Emperor’s Spirit: The Saint radiates the Emperor’s very presence, driving those around her to fight with all of their might.
If used during the Movement Phase all units with the Acts of Faith or War Hymns in 12” may move up to an additional d3” (roll for each unit)
If used during the Shooting Phase all units with the Acts of Faith or War Hymns in 12” may shoot twice (each must shoot at the same unit they’ve shot before, if that unit is destroyed they may not fired again. Each unit that chooses that to fire a second time may not fire Overwatch until the end of the next their Shooting Phase.
If used during the Assault Phase all units with the Acts of Faith or War Hymns special rule gain the gain an extra attacks and re-roll all failed to hit and to wound rolls.
Options:
May replace bolt pistol with boltgun…………………………………….……..free
May take Blessed Ammunition………………………….………..………......5 pts
May take with Holy Promethium…………………………….………………..5 pts
May take melta bombs………………………………….…………………....5 pts
May replace her Power Armor with Blessed Armor…………...…………..15 pts
A Saint may take items from the Melee Weapons, Ranged Weapons, Special Equipment and Ecclesiarchy Relics lists.
Not super exciting I guess, but I think for a 75pt base HQ (before any options, to include a 2+ save) she isn't bad. I decided to not go with the "Living Saint" moniker since that's firmly Celestine's name at this point, but Sisters do have a lot of Saints and it gives me something to build off of for our two named Saint HQs that need to be added back in. Anyone have any complaints about her? I mean I've got a Canoness at 50 (I also bumper her I to 5) and she's got has +1 WS/BS/I over the Canoness, and her AoF is pretty strong (I'm not sold on the name though and am open to suggestions).
Close to where I was, honestly. Lorewise "Living Saint" is merely someone declared a Saint while still alive, Alicia Dominica and her five companions that founded the original Orders Militant were all Living Saints as well.
I had a menu of abilities for my generic Living Saint sort of like how the C'tan Shards are supposed to have special tricks that you mix and match to make your own:
Aura of Purity: Friendly units within 6" are Fearless
Blessed Renewal: Celestine's resurrection power (If you're worried about me taking away Celestine's unique trick she gets to keep trying to resurrect if she fails, other Living Saints with the power get the one chance and stay gone if they fail)
Divine Fire: Units attempting to assault the Living Saint or a unit she has joined do so as if through Dangerous Terrain
Fires of Wrath: She and her unit reroll to hit with flame weapons, melta weapons, and weapons with Blessed Bolts
The Light of Faith: She and units within 12" of her get +1 when rolling to generate Faith Points.
Speed is Life: She and her unit get Hit and Run
Not sure if those are going anywhere or if they'd be useful but it's a direction to go.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As to versus horde armies the Relic Predator and the Erelim should both help with that in my setup; the +1S on flame weapons from Holy Promethium is actually not that far off Deflagrate if you look at the odds (expected value of a hit on a Space Marine with a flamer: 0.165 normally, 0.192 with Deflagrate, 0.221 with S5; expected value of a hit on a Guardsman with a flamer: 0.67 normally, 1.11 with Deflagrate, 0.83 with +1S).
Reworking points isn't that scary. I treat them as the CCW and as the ranged weapon and sum them up. The twin-linked plasma pistol shooting with the melee attack might actually be worth 15pts.
I've considered that kind of thing before (hell if I know where my old notes are from the previous codex though) but I just dind't have a lot of ideas that felt really well balanced. Even if you put really high points costs on some of them there always seems to be one or two powers people always want and others they never want, just because they are just that useful.
That's why I went with the AoF method I did where she has a lot of strong utility with the army, and she really buffs it well, but on top of it by not including powers like that I keep her cheaper (I mean Celestine is 135 and I'm only bumping her to 150 when I give her EW and letting her come back as many times as she passes her test, and make her a LoW, by the time you dropped the points to make a watered down version of her who can only come back once, you might as well just take Celestine instead).
Automatically Appended Next Post: RE: Deflagerate, I wasn't trying to buff it against Marines though, so it being a better option than a higher strength versus Guard and the like is actually more what I was looking at: making it something that works better against chaff troops (Gaunts, Guard, Ork Boyz) and not the elite troops (that's why we have Melta after all).
Automatically Appended Next Post: And don't forget that the TL Plasma Pistol you're talking about is on a model who can gain Shred.
Potentially bring back the Flail, the Staff and the Axe, and other relics from the 2e book?
Katherine's Praesidium (Praesidium Protectiva +1 of some kind - maybe makes nearby units Faithful, or Fearless or some such?)
My take on the old Relics;
Tears of the Emperor. There are many stories of statues of the Emperor and other icons of the faith weeping blood-like tears. These tears are collected in ornate crystal bottles, and they are a potent weapon against the forces of Chaos.
The phial can be thrown just like a grenade and uses a 2" blast marker. Any daemon affected takes a wound on a d6 roll of 4+ and receives no invulnerable save from its Daemon rule.
Phial of Dolan Anyone who drinks the contents of one of these crystal bottles is filled with the strength and determination of Dolan, the Great Confessor.
The character may drink the contents of the phial at the start of any turn. For the rest of the player's turn, the character is counted as being under the effects of the Iron Arm biomancy power. One use only.
Axe of Retribution The Axe of Retribution is styled upon the famous Axe of Chalcydon borne by Saint Jason of Huale. Its massive double-bladed head is studded with jewels which rend the flesh of those it strikes. The Axe may be used in close combat with the following profile:
Close Combat. S User +2, AP 5, Melee, Armourbane, Shred
Staff of Belief Carved of wood taken from the massive trees lining the Garden of Saints, the Staff of Belief is a potent symbol of faith and devotion.
The Staff is a Close-Combat weapon with the following profile:
Close Combat Strength user +3 AP - Melee, Two-handed, Parry, Daemonbane
Parry: The wielder recieves a +1 bonus to their Invulnerable Save in close combat (to a maximum of 3+)
Daemonbane: Invulnerable Saves from the Daemon special rule may not be taken against wounds from this weapon.
Flail of Chastisement The Flail of Chastisement is barbed with small hooks which grip the target's flesh and constrict it as it struggles.
Close Combat | Strength User +2 | AP5 | Melee, Tangle
Tangle: A model wounded but not killed (including saved wounds) by the Flail reduces the number of attacks they may make in their next Fight sub-phase by D3 (to a minimum of 1)
These are just my thoughts as I go through this thread.
First off Land Raiders are Space Marines only. Inquisitor's can get away with taking a few, but that's because they do what they want. Sisters or the Ecclesiarchy couldn't get away with stockpiling Land Raiders. If you want to see how people react to Sisters of Battle getting Land Raiders check my original thread on the B&C: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286511-homebrew-codex-sisters-of-battle-6th-edition/
Instead I created the Crucifier the Sisters of Battle's exclusive heavy armour assault vehicle.
In the process of revising my rules for 7e; sticking to J3f's core ideas on Acts, but I feel like eleven Acts is too many with the potential redundancy. Major points I'm differing from prior attempts discussed on this page are Militia Warbands as Troops (what would the 41st millennium be without religious fanatics usable as expendable cannon fodder?) and the Erelim (as discussed in an earlier thread about a dedicated Sororitas Flyer, I know SisterSydney disagreed with me on basing it on the Storm Eagle but a shock transport loaded down with flame-themed weaponry using multi-meltas to dogfight in a pinch seems very in-character for the Sisters).
Ophanim are probably going (not a lot of basis in fluff, don't remember where I got the idea but I think it was someone else's homebrew Codex) but I'm leaving the CC Seraphim variant in on the grounds that I've grown attached to the mental image. May draw on other folks' Special Characters, and my build-your-own-Living-Saint setup is staying in.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also a Sororitas tank based on the Relic Predator running with the torrent Flamestorm Cannon or the melta cannon as turret guns. No way an idea that fitting and pre-priced for me is staying out.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also got convinced by a friend to un-delete Dominions. Going to try and give them their own niche as the preferred Drop Pod unit.
It's really more like 10 Acts of Faith since Duty unto Death is Oblatia only, and my Acts of Faiths are somewhat more unreliable than GW's IG Orders by a different name so redundancy is a good thing. Also most of the Acts of Faith are only useful in 1 phase so having a lot of them means the Sisters are covered in more than 1 phase. Each Test of Faith also either favors large squads or small squads so reallistically a unit will only have access to half of the Acts of Faith at any time.
I specifically didn't make Militia Warbands (Zealots in My Codex) Troops becuase they would overshadow Battle sisters like Cultists overhadow Chaos Space Marines. It's also too obvious a violation of the Decree Passive.
I gave the Sisters their own unique Fliers not shameless ripped from the Space Marines. The Aquila Dropship, Alto Superiority Fighter, and Divinity Assault Craft.
Instead of giving the Sisters the Relic Predator I made Crucifer patterns with an Inferno Cannon and Melta Cannon or Magna-Melta. Also I couldn't see a Torrent Flamestorm Cannon Mounted on a Rhino Chasis. Just look at the Hellhound.
Mr Morden wrote: I get the impression they are rabble rousers, terrorist leaders and where neccesary assassins.
Now I am thinking Alex and Nikita from the recent Nikita series - well its a nice place to go
They may well be there to guide in Strike teams from the Miltiant Orders when a new planet is being brought into the Imperium although they may be a bit strange to the other Sisters?
Another interesting possible inclusion:
The Orders Pronatus specialise in retrieving, guarding, studying and repairing artefacts of value to the Ecclesiarchy. This includes the uncounted thousands of holy relics revered by the peoples of the Imperium, but it also relates to items captured by the forces of the Imperium that are considered too powerful or significant to be allowed to fall into enemy hands. They have the responsibility of maintaining and blessing the many banners and symbols of the Orders Militant and often re-consecrate the livery of other Imperial bodies. On occasion, members of the Orders Pronatus have given all in the defence of artefacts they were charged with guarding or studying. The fate of the Order of Blessed Enquiry is a salutary lesson in the risks inherent in hoarding an object imbued with the evil of the Ruinous Powers, even if the intent is to safeguard Humanity from their corrupting influence.
Check my Codex, I made Order Pronatus Scout Sisters, but they're an elite Troops choice instead of a cut-down Battle Sister.
AnomanderRake wrote: I feel like that mechanic might be best set up as the Sisters' Warlord Traits table instead of a separate thing, if the bonuses are minor, to preserve simplicity.
Automatically Appended Next Post: My next concern is on how to work Martyrdom back into the rules; anyone have any suggestions?
I made Martyrdom just make Units continue to generate Faith Points for 1 extra turn after Death. It softens the blow and gives you the opportunity to turn the tables.
SisterSydney wrote: We need to distinguish between "generic Living Saint" and "Saint Celestine with the serial number filed off" (which seems to be what Soulstorm did, not that I've played it). Wasn't Sebastian Thor also considered a Living Saint? There are plenty of possibilities beyond "flying beatstick." Leadership and Faith boosts would be very characterful, for example.
I had a concept of a Generic Living Saint that was basically like a Pheonix Lord. Standard Statline and wargear base and you then got to essentially go nuts and customize them into the (expensive) brick of your dreams.
Honestly, consider I'm pretty sure that Celestine is going to end up parked in the LoW section (unless Sisters get something REALLY freaking awesome in their next eventual codex update (anyone else feeling a lot like Nids at this point: updates every edition (since 5th) and they don't fix things but kind of feel like they're making them worse? Or is it just me?), I think filing her serial number off might be a bit much. That is unless we swing it the other way and file her serial numbers off, but she's the only Living Saint with their own Act of Faith which would be enough to justify her LoW status (especially if she finally gets EW. Who wants an unkillable Flying Nun?).
Living Saints aren't the Imperiums answer to Daemon Princes. They're rare and unique. Any Living Saint deserves to be their own Special Character. Having them be a generic HQ doesn't make sense. Living Saints, especially ones like Celestine are an Oddity, not something that are so common that they can be talked about as a population.
ClockworkZion wrote: So last time I worked on that original update I didn't do a lot of points chopping. I mean, I did some (mostly on things like Power Weapons and other options like that), but I did very little of it to the overall army. As such here's the deal: we all know the army is largely overcosted for infantry models all over the place, as such I say all non-HQ infantry models (save for the Sororitas Command Squad) gets dropped 1ppm, to include additional models (keeping the same 10point upgrade cost for Veteran Sisters Superiors though).
That'd mean:
10 point BSS 12 point Celestians
13 point Repentia (I almost want them to be 12 but they puree Tact Marine squads if they catch them so 13 is about right at most)
14 point Seraphim
11 point Dominions (the only reason they don't get to be 10 is because they have Scout)
10 point Retributors
I almost want to knock 5-10 more points of Penitent Engines (to put them at 60-65) but I'm not really sure that it'd make them feel worth taking.
Instead of making them super cheap, I'd just like to see them be worth their points and the Whole Codex bolster them with worthwhile options. The Sisters of Battle are still an army of Elites they're no Imperial Guar or even Storm Troopers.
AnomanderRake wrote: Also considering allowing two models in a regular Battle Sisters squad to take two heavy, two special, or one of each instead of a special or a special and a heavy. Any remarks?
I went with 1 special at 5 models, 1 special or heavy at 10, another special at 15 and another special or heavy at 20.
I like the concept of rewarding people for playing a unit of over ten models, may appropriate something like this.
I gave units larger than 10 models access to the Rhino Advancer an open-topped transport that seats 20.
Also considering allowing two models in a regular Battle Sisters squad to take two heavy, two special, or one of each instead of a special or a special and a heavy. Any remarks?
Well I tend to take only Melta guns or Flamers so I would like it
Is there any fluffy reason the Sisters would use larger squads especially given they tend to operate using 10 person vehicles??
Rules-wise it's a grandfather-clause thing more than anything else; they've been 5-20 or 10-20 in every book, so we're rolling with it.
Lore-wise I'd think it's because they're a step in between the Space Marines (5-10 man squads) and the Imperial Guard (25-100 man platoons) on the general spectrum of tactical flexibility, they're not elite rapid-response forces like the Space Marines or Veteran Guard armies, but at the same time they're not large unwieldy garrison forces with immense quantities of bodies to draw on. They're a militarily-independent force that garrisons their own outposts all over the place so they tend to have more bodies on hand than Space Marines who sit on their asses until they need to make a dramatic entrance do, but they're more elite and expensive to equip than the Guard. (To anyone who's about to jump down my throat on this one the Sisters can and do field elite rapid-response forces, but it's not the core purpose of their army in the same way it is for Marines, Elysians, Eldar, and the like)
That said I do want to push for larger-capacity transport vehicles to accommodate fifteen or twenty-model Sisters units; it's a prime mover behind wanting Sororitas Land Raiders and basing the Erelim (the name comes from MrSako's Sororitas Stormraven but I'm appropriating it) off of the Storm Eagle in addition to working out a Rhino Advancer. Really large units (twenty-model Guardian, Kabalite Warrior, Chaos Marine, etc.) units don't see play in Codexes that don't have the transports for them because a unit with a transport is tougher, faster, and overall more valuable as a unit than either the unit or the transport would be alone; twenty-model 30k squads do see play because the transport platforms are available there. (This is be a gross oversimplification, there are other factors that include the fact that a twenty-man Tactical Squad in 30k is fifty points cheaper than two ten-man Tactical Squads, but I'm focusing on the issues that are easier for me to address when writing a 7e Sisters book)
Check out my Codex for rules on a Rhino Advancer, also check out the Divinity Assult Craft that can also fit 20 models.
AnomanderRake wrote: I'm giving thought to giving Seraphim melee attacks with different sorts of pistols, but they'd be the only folks besides Cypher to gain melee benefit from a plasma pistol. Any remarks?
Some things need to stay in Horus Heresy such as overcomplicated Special Rules.
AnomanderRake wrote: I'd specify "any models in an army including detachments from Codex: Chaos Space Marines or Codex: Chaos Daemons", even with traitors there's a degree of far-gone that's unacceptable and a degree to which redemption is still possible.
I don't know that 25pts is a fair cost; for 30pts CSM can get a 4/3 12" Torrent flamer, which seems vastly better on all fronts. Maybe 20pts?
AnomanderRake wrote: I'm giving thought to giving Seraphim melee attacks with different sorts of pistols, but they'd be the only folks besides Cypher to gain melee benefit from a plasma pistol. Any remarks?
Believe me I've been there too, but I never really could get it to feel like it was fairly balanced or anything so I gave up on it.
Any complaints about Holy Promethium having Deflagerate as a rule? It'd make Sisters better at anti-horde, something they are REALLY bad at currently.
I feel like anti-horde isn't where Sisters struggle given the quantity of flamers they can bring to the table, honestly. Straight-up lifting Deflagrate would look weird lore-wise, but I'm not sure about a good replacement.
As to the pistols two hand flamers would probably be +2A instead of +1 for two close combat weapons, two inferno pistols could count as meltabombs, and two plasma pistols could be half Attacks at AP2 with Gets Hot in melee, nothing too excessive.
You're trying too hard to punish people for a certain Allies combination, just make it have your bonuses against Chaos Space Marines and Chaos Daemons.
Seraphim don't need bonuses based on what pistols they have.
Potentially bring back the Flail, the Staff and the Axe, and other relics from the 2e book?
Katherine's Praesidium (Praesidium Protectiva +1 of some kind - maybe makes nearby units Faithful, or Fearless or some such?)
My take on the old Relics;
Tears of the Emperor. There are many stories of statues of the Emperor and other icons of the faith weeping blood-like tears. These tears are collected in ornate crystal bottles, and they are a potent weapon against the forces of Chaos.
The phial can be thrown just like a grenade and uses a 2" blast marker. Any daemon affected takes a wound on a d6 roll of 4+ and receives no invulnerable save from its Daemon rule.
Phial of Dolan Anyone who drinks the contents of one of these crystal bottles is filled with the strength and determination of Dolan, the Great Confessor.
The character may drink the contents of the phial at the start of any turn. For the rest of the player's turn, the character is counted as being under the effects of the Iron Arm biomancy power. One use only.
Axe of Retribution The Axe of Retribution is styled upon the famous Axe of Chalcydon borne by Saint Jason of Huale. Its massive double-bladed head is studded with jewels which rend the flesh of those it strikes. The Axe may be used in close combat with the following profile:
Close Combat. S User +2, AP 5, Melee, Armourbane, Shred
Staff of Belief Carved of wood taken from the massive trees lining the Garden of Saints, the Staff of Belief is a potent symbol of faith and devotion.
The Staff is a Close-Combat weapon with the following profile:
Close Combat Strength user +3 AP - Melee, Two-handed, Parry, Daemonbane
Parry: The wielder recieves a +1 bonus to their Invulnerable Save in close combat (to a maximum of 3+)
Daemonbane: Invulnerable Saves from the Daemon special rule may not be taken against wounds from this weapon.
Flail of Chastisement The Flail of Chastisement is barbed with small hooks which grip the target's flesh and constrict it as it struggles.
Close Combat | Strength User +2 | AP5 | Melee, Tangle
Tangle: A model wounded but not killed (including saved wounds) by the Flail reduces the number of attacks they may make in their next Fight sub-phase by D3 (to a minimum of 1)
Check my Relics, I statted all of the above except the Tears and Phial.
Potentially bring back the Flail, the Staff and the Axe, and other relics from the 2e book?
Katherine's Praesidium (Praesidium Protectiva +1 of some kind - maybe makes nearby units Faithful, or Fearless or some such?)
My take on the old Relics;
Tears of the Emperor. There are many stories of statues of the Emperor and other icons of the faith weeping blood-like tears. These tears are collected in ornate crystal bottles, and they are a potent weapon against the forces of Chaos.
The phial can be thrown just like a grenade and uses a 2" blast marker. Any daemon affected takes a wound on a d6 roll of 4+ and receives no invulnerable save from its Daemon rule.
Frankly I don't know why we should get such a potent anti-Daemon weapon. We're not an army that strictly fights Daemons.
J3f wrote:First off Land Raiders are Space Marines only. Inquisitor's can get away with taking a few, but that's because they do what they want. Sisters or the Ecclesiarchy couldn't get away with stockpiling Land Raiders. If you want to see how people react to Sisters of Battle getting Land Raiders check my original thread on the B&C: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/286511-homebrew-codex-sisters-of-battle-6th-edition/
I didn't read all of the posts but I did see one person who was a bit angier about it than he probably should have been. Anyways, point taken about the Land Raiders.
I'll have to look at IA2 then because I'm curious about what they wrote.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also a Sororitas tank based on the Relic Predator running with the torrent Flamestorm Cannon or the melta cannon as turret guns. No way an idea that fitting and pre-priced for me is staying out.
J3f wrote:I specifically didn't make Militia Warbands (Zealots in My Codex) Troops becuase they would overshadow Battle sisters like Cultists overhadow Chaos Space Marines. It's also too obvious a violation of the Decree Passive.
The idea, if I'm recalling correctly, of Zealots and Frateris Militia is that they were the common rabble. People who were either fighting because they sided with the Sisters, or those who just happened to be there to stage a defense. I mean Sisters are usually where the Ecclesiarchy is so it makes sense that if they're caught up in a fight, the common man is too.
J3f wrote:Living Saints aren't the Imperiums answer to Daemon Princes. They're rare and unique. Any Living Saint deserves to be their own Special Character. Having them be a generic HQ doesn't make sense. Living Saints, especially ones like Celestine are an Oddity, not something that are so common that they can be talked about as a population.
I'd argue it depends on your interpretation of the fluff. But if you'll note, since that post I posted a more generic "Saint" who wasn't Celestine with the serial number filed off.
J3f wrote:Instead of making them super cheap, I'd just like to see them be worth their points and the Whole Codex bolster them with worthwhile options. The Sisters of Battle are still an army of Elites they're no Imperial Guar or even Storm Troopers.
Veterans are 6 points, knocking BSS to 10 still isn't putting them close. And Storm Troopers are overpriced at 12 (one point below CSM and 2 below Marines).
J3f wrote:You're trying too hard to punish people for a certain Allies combination, just make it have your bonuses against Chaos Space Marines and Chaos Daemons.
I really didn't to involve Daemons in it at all. I wanted Traitor Guard and CSM to be the things that it gets bonuses against because that fits the idea of it being "Heretic's Bane".
I believe originally, we got the Tears of the Emperor because the Ecclesiarchy are the ones who gather and store them, and because their powers are faith-based.
Furyou Miko wrote: I believe originally, we got the Tears of the Emperor because the Ecclesiarchy are the ones who gather and store them, and because their powers are faith-based.
It still sounds more like something the Inquisition or the Grey Knights would have instead. It just doesn't fit the Sisters in my mind.
If you want to haul a 20-Sister block across the battlefield, then you need an Ecclesiarchal version/variant of the Crassus. It would also take care of the fact that we don't have a dedicated Super-Heavy.
SisterSydney wrote: Quick aside on anti-horde: if you want Blast, the most logical place to put it as on an alternative warhead for the Exorcist.
That or turn the Exorcist into a Blast Barrage Weapon (not really what I want to do honestly).
It should be done, however. At least, it will end the stupid fact it can't hit at anything with the current rules in V7 (line of sight following the weapon tube for wehicles...since the Exorcist's ones are directly upwards, well...).
And honestly, it would me more suited to their current appearance (I'm not talking about conversions from Whirlwinds or that blank FW model from that time). Since a Barrage Weapon with no Blast can be quite tricky to work within the current rules, it's better to use it the old good way.
Random Melta Missiles were always a bad idea at the core, IMHO. Especially in an army that has a "fire threat" at close range for most of its members.
SisterSydney wrote: Quick aside on anti-horde: if you want Blast, the most logical place to put it as on an alternative warhead for the Exorcist.
That or turn the Exorcist into a Blast Barrage Weapon (not really what I want to do honestly).
It should be done, however. At least, it will end the stupid fact it can't hit at anything with the current rules in V7 (line of sight following the weapon tube for wehicles...since the Exorcist's ones are directly upwards, well...).
And honestly, it would me more suited to their current appearance (I'm not talking about conversions from Whirlwinds or that blank FW model from that time). Since a Barrage Weapon with no Blast can be quite tricky to work within the current rules, it's better to use it the old good way.
Random Melta Missiles were always a bad idea at the core, IMHO. Especially in an army that has a "fire threat" at close range for most of its members.
That's been FAQ'd since 3rd edition. Anyone who'd argue that it can only fire upwards instead of as a turret mounted weapon deserves to be slapped upside the head. Exorcist Missiles aren't Melta and Random missiles are what make them unique and give the unit flavor. I know everything in 7th is going for Bland, but stay away from my Exorcists.
Psienesis wrote: If you want to haul a 20-Sister block across the battlefield, then you need an Ecclesiarchal version/variant of the Crassus. It would also take care of the fact that we don't have a dedicated Super-Heavy.
I like this idea.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Thinking of dedicated Super Heavies, would there be complaints about an Ecclesiarchy Stormlord?
The only downside to the LoW being our source of mass Sister conveyance is that we need lots of points to do it. Neither the CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORT nor the Stormlord is particularly cheap, and they would prevent us from using Celestine in a single CAD army.
I wouldn't mind the 20 Sister Blobs if we could be faster, but with our short range, high cost versus chaff models like Guard or Gaunts, we could really use a proper option of some kind.
Psienesis wrote: If you want to haul a 20-Sister block across the battlefield, then you need an Ecclesiarchal version/variant of the Crassus. It would also take care of the fact that we don't have a dedicated Super-Heavy.
I like this idea.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Thinking of dedicated Super Heavies, would there be complaints about an Ecclesiarchy Stormlord?
Psienesis wrote: If you want to haul a 20-Sister block across the battlefield, then you need an Ecclesiarchal version/variant of the Crassus. It would also take care of the fact that we don't have a dedicated Super-Heavy.
I like this idea.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Thinking of dedicated Super Heavies, would there be complaints about an Ecclesiarchy Stormlord?
The only downside to the LoW being our source of mass Sister conveyance is that we need lots of points to do it. Neither the CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORT nor the Stormlord is particularly cheap, and they would prevent us from using Celestine in a single CAD army.
I wouldn't mind the 20 Sister Blobs if we could be faster, but with our short range, high cost versus chaff models like Guard or Gaunts, we could really use a proper option of some kind.
Perhaps the Stormwolf (transport size: 16) or a Spartan (transport size: 25)? Stormwolves would fall under Dedicated Transports while Spartans would be Heavy Support.
No, the Stormwolf is hideous... also can't carry a full-strength squad of BSS, which is the point. Seraphim don't really need another way to get stuck in.
The Spartan might do it... and it looks really, really good... if you could replace at least one set of the TL lascannon sponsons with TL heavy flamers or some other Torrent flame-weapon.... and maybe stick TL multi-meltas in the other sponsons.
Why not just have the Sisters share Imperial Guard transport/super-heavy transport vehicles? That makes a lot more sense to me than them having all their own variants. Aesthetically, throw some Ecclesiarch bling on them and call it a day.
Wouldn't an IG vehicle with Ecc bling be an Ecc-version of the vehicle? I mean, a Rhino is a Rhino is a Rhino... paint it black and stick an =I= on it and now it's an Inquisitorial Rhino. Paint it blue and put an upside-down U on it and now it's the personal property of Marneus Calgar. I mean, yeah, it would be the same baseline vehicle as used by the IG... but the Ecc being the Ecc, they will not settle for hand-me-downs, they'll slap some laud hailers on it, scythe-bladed gold rims and some stacks belching clouds of incense and give it a new name.
Which is exactly why they take it. They can roll by the Marines in their LRs, chugging along (the Spartan is noted as being faster, as it uses a new engine design), and stick their tongues out while they leave the genetically-engineered superfreaks sucking road dust and engine exhaust.
(insert pic of Anime SoB sticking her tongue out here.... cannot find the pic)
Psienesis wrote: Which is exactly why they take it. They can roll by the Marines in their LRs, chugging along (the Spartan is noted as being faster, as it uses a new engine design), and stick their tongues out while they leave the genetically-engineered superfreaks sucking road dust and engine exhaust.
(insert pic of Anime SoB sticking her tongue out here.... cannot find the pic)
The only problem I run into is that the Spartan Assault Tank is also called the Land Raider Spartan, which runs us right back into the "no Land Raiders" issue again. :(
Automatically Appended Next Post: There is also this bit o' fluff:
The Spartan Assault Tank was used by most, if not all of the Space Marine Legions during the Great Crusade and the Horus Heresy, and after the Legions were broken down into Chapters during the Second Founding many of the newly-formed Space Marine units retained several of these vehicles in their armouries. It is unknown if the Adeptus Mechanicus is able to build new Spartan Assault Tanks in the late 41st Millennium or if the technology has been lost like so much else from the Great Crusade era.
An armoured transport of truly massive proportions, the Spartan is a heavy assault tank previously all but unknown outside of the revered Space Marine Chapters and the secretive Adeptus Mechanicus.
... which implies that the AdMech *can* make more of them, since they seem to be making their way out of the Chapters and the AdMech's forces.
I interpreted the suggestion as developing all new snow-flake vehicles for them.
How are they snow-flake vehicles. Most Armies don't share their vehicles. The one exception is the Rhino which gets shared between Sisters and Space Marines. Imperial Guard don't share their vehicles with Space Marines so why should the Sisters of Battle share their vehicles with other Armies? They deserve their own unique vehicles.
Yes I'm aware that things like the Arvus Lighter and a bunch of other Forge World stuff gets shred between them, but I'm talking main Codex Entries.
An armoured transport of truly massive proportions, the Spartan is a heavy assault tank previously all but unknown outside of the revered Space Marine Chapters and the secretive Adeptus Mechanicus.
... which implies that the AdMech *can* make more of them, since they seem to be making their way out of the Chapters and the AdMech's forces.
If it's "all but unknown" outside of Marines and the Ad Mech then how can Sisters reasonably lay claim to any? It sounds rarer than hen's teeth.
To be honest, making new vehicles is the easy part for Adepta Sororitas. I mean, you take anything from Space Marines list as base and add the Shield of Faith special rule with a small point increase (like 5 or 10, that's enough), and that's done (you can take it a bit further with some weapon change to fit the Holy Trinity of Melta, Bolter and Flamer).
But with the V7 Alliance System, our sisters can already use nearly everything they want from other lists. Even Battle Sisters in Drop Pods is possible, without any change in the rules needed.
About Super Heavies...well, they're not so many for now. Even Space Marines don't have dedicated Super Heavies if you don't take from Forgeworld. If taking a Stormlord, Baneblade or Imperial Knight can already be done with the rules as they are, why bother adding a "specific" one for the sisters when Space Marines don't even have it?
I'm not saying it's not possible to have a sanctified Stormlord with special rules, but to me, it's more suited for a specific scenario or campaign, like a Special Character made just for that game/campaign. And it's so easy to do, now!
About the Exorcist...well, it's not so great for us, in fact. It's such an obvious target while being horribly random. Most of my games, they were blowed up too soon or rolled a "1" on their number of shots at the most inappropriate time. Besides, when you look at them, they are much more like an artillery unit. Hell, even in the Dawn of War Soulstorm game, they were actually played like a Barrage Weapon!
If you need some long range antitank weaponry, now the answer is clear in V7: take allies. Like Grey Knights, Adepta Sororitas is quite specialized (they usually fight at close range, after all) and can't do everything only by themselves. That's the way of the V7, to me.
An armoured transport of truly massive proportions, the Spartan is a heavy assault tank previously all but unknown outside of the revered Space Marine Chapters and the secretive Adeptus Mechanicus.
... which implies that the AdMech *can* make more of them, since they seem to be making their way out of the Chapters and the AdMech's forces.
If it's "all but unknown" outside of Marines and the Ad Mech then how can Sisters reasonably lay claim to any? It sounds rarer than hen's teeth.
Yeah, but then, so are Battle Sisters.
I like the idea of a Spartan. It's explicitly not a Land Raider, the name "Land Raider Spartan" is a fan-nickname that originates from when the first pictures were released.
I also like the idea of a Spartan with twin-linked flamestorm sponsons, or the old fan-invented Heavy Bolter / Heavy Flamer sponson combo.
Sarouan wrote: Even Space Marines don't have dedicated Super Heavies if you don't take from Forgeworld. If taking a Stormlord, Baneblade or Imperial Knight can already be done with the rules as they are, why bother adding a "specific" one for the sisters when Space Marines don't even have it?
Because -- setting aside my inveterate love for tanks -- SIsters have a different tactical role than Marines. The Astartes are a galactic Quick Reaction Force (QRF) first and foremost, intended to slam in hard and fast at the critical point, then pull out while the Imperial Guard pour in; no surprise their only superheavy in Escalation is an aerospacecraft, and an Assault Vehicle at that, the Thunderhawk. Sisters have a QRF role for the Ecclesiarchy, but they also have a long-time defense role on Shrine Worlds and major holy sites elsewhere, and they are the spearhead of Wars of Faith to (re)take territory. So while the Sisters don't need superheavies as much as the Guard, they still have more occasion to use them than the Marines.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sarouan wrote: If you need some long range antitank weaponry, now the answer is clear in V7: take allies. Like Grey Knights, Adepta Sororitas is quite specialized (they usually fight at close range, after all) and can't do everything only by themselves. That's the way of the V7, to me.
I like the new Allies and Detachment rules, a lot. I just want Sisters to be a reasonably self-sufficient force, rather than the narrow specialists they are now: they don't have to be GOOD at long-range anti-tank, but they should have some kind of workable solution to that particular tactical problem.
Again, I was thinking of an alternative warhead for the Exorcist, specifically an extended-range one (with worse S and AP). Of course, you could also put Hunter-Killer missiles on every Rhino, Immo, Exo, etc. and go "happy turn one alpha strike, Mister Knight!"
Because -- setting aside my inveterate love for tanks -- SIsters have a different tactical role than Marines. The Astartes are a galactic Quick Reaction Force (QRF) first and foremost, intended to slam in hard and fast at the critical point, then pull out while the Imperial Guard pour in; no surprise their only superheavy in Escalation is an aerospacecraft, and an Assault Vehicle at that, the Thunderhawk. Sisters have a QRF role for the Ecclesiarchy, but they also have a long-time defense role on Shrine Worlds and major holy sites elsewhere, and they are the spearhead of Wars of Faith to (re)take territory. So while the Sisters don't need superheavies as much as the Guard, they still have more occasion to use them than the Marines.
I can understand that, but to me, the way the Adepta Sororitas use tanks is more about they have what they can obtain via the Ecclesiarchy's relations. They aren't a regular army at all (it is quite clear since the civil war because of Goge Vandire and the famous decree that followed for the Ecclesiarchy); they are mostly used as escort or protection of a holy site and are more alike to the Pontifical Swiss Guard to me. When a Holy Crusade is ordered, sisters are sure to come along but it is the Astra Militarum that will be the main body. Sisters using some of the military assets from the Imperial Guard (or sometimes Adeptus Astartes...) is much more likely rather than having a lot of specific tanks to only themselves, if you look at the 40k background.
I can see them having "special" tanks for a very long time, sanctified iron beasts that will become more like mobile altars of faith - but it's unlikely they will be able to produce them in great numbers. It's more about the story of a particular crusade and the reasons that lead the sisters having "that" special Baneblade or Stormlord. I feel it's more like the named tank for Commissar Yarrick rather than the Exorcist, which is quite a special case.
Again, I was thinking of an alternative warhead for the Exorcist, specifically an extended-range one (with worse S and AP). Of course, you could also put Hunter-Killer missiles on every Rhino, Immo, Exo, etc. and go "happy turn one alpha strike, Mister Knight!"
I usually pop up "Mister Knight" with the good ol' Melta Gun or motivated Repentia sisters. Exorcists are way too random to actually base your tactics only on them. But yeah, I would love to have something else for them. Something more..."sister-like", I'll say. Like incendiary charges? Let's burn the heretics, I say, not just launching some boring random missiles!
But then, if there is a tank with only heavy melta guns on it for the sisters...I wouldn't mind. After all, I already made such a conversion myself. As well as my famous "Land Raider Trinity" (a Land Raider Redeemer with heavy bolter instead of assault cannon and twin heavy melta gun).
I'd think the alpha-strike answer to Knights with the current direction of the discussion would be a Drop Pod loaded with melta-Dominions, personally.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On the subject of alternate Exorcist loadouts, how silly do folks think doing the normal d6 S8/Ap3 shots as one fire mode and then having one 'melta-warhead' or multiple Ignore Cover incendiary blasts as alternates would be?
When a Holy Crusade is ordered, sisters are sure to come along but it is the Astra Militarum that will be the main body. Sisters using some of the military assets from the Imperial Guard (or sometimes Adeptus Astartes...) is much more likely rather than having a lot of specific tanks to only themselves, if you look at the 40k background.
There are far more Wars of Faith waged between worlds in the Imperium than there are Crusades declared against worlds that lie outside of it. These are wars prosecuted by the Sisters, and supported by whatever devoted IG commander might have been in the area, and tides of the faithful against whatever heresy is being practiced by Those People Over There... and it is rather likely that many machines of war make their way into the arsenals of the Orders Militant through such means, either captured from heretics or recidivists, or donated to the Sisters by IG Commanders as an act of piety.
Josey4u wrote: Can we do SOMETHING with an inferno pistol?
Like what? It's a melta pistol. I don't know how it could really become better because if we up the range then we need to up the cost to compete with the meltagun (especially since it gives an extra attack when paired with a CCW).
Oh, thinking about the Blade of Admonition, I'm looking at upping it's cost to 30 and giving it Killing Blow to fit the fluff that it may have been Dominica's sword (since she beheaded him in a single stroke).
Maybe letting it still use 2d6 for pen at 6"? IDK, I'm just throwing it out there. In truth, I often forget to use my pistols as CCWs. Please remind me when I use my plasma pistol in CC!!! I always use the stat line and add the pistol in.
Makes a big difference when you use Cypher. And as it would for the inferno pistol. AP1 kinda a big deal. Honestly though what you got going is great. Lets get this thing printed and out there.
Been chatting with Sisters players and the general consensus seems to be that a CC variant of the Seraphim with alternate weaponry would be a better idea than making the pistols matter in CC. Planning on pumping Celestians and Seraphim to I4 base, CC Seraphim loadout would be power weapon and option for Praesidium Protectiva (still a 4++ Storm Shield under my rules), probably between 20 and 25ppm fully geared.
Theory on Exorcists (No good pompous names for the missiles yet):
Standard Missiles: 48", S8, AP1, Heavy d6 Incendiary Missiles: 48", S4, AP5, Heavy d3, Large Blast, Barrage, Ignores Cover
Ground-to-air Missiles: 48", S7, AP3, Heavy d6, Skyfire (Before anyone complains the skyfire missiles are AP3 because the regular Exorcist missiles have better AP than shoulderfired krak missiles so I figure the skyfire missiles would be built similarly)
Thinking alternate loadouts would be available for purchase instead of just making the Exorcist a gun that fires three things to try and keep the price down.
AnomanderRake wrote: Been chatting with Sisters players and the general consensus seems to be that a CC variant of the Seraphim with alternate weaponry would be a better idea than making the pistols matter in CC. Planning on pumping Celestians and Seraphim to I4 base, CC Seraphim loadout would be power weapon and option for Praesidium Protectiva (still a 4++ Storm Shield under my rules), probably between 20 and 25ppm fully geared.
I took a shot at something similar here, but I ended up worrying it overshadowed the Seraphim:
SisterSydney wrote: Instead of 2+, let's try a 45-point 35-point, 3+/3++, & power weapon build based on Seraphim.
Note that, as I've statted them up here, Principalities always have Shred -- which Seraphim have to roll an AOF for -- and Furious Charge -- which Celestians have to roll AOF for. They also have Celestian's 2 Attacks. They're sort of a souped-up Celestian-Seraphim hybrid that's armed and armoured like a Battle Conclave's Crusaders (not Terminators).
Conversely they lose "Hit & Run" because their task and training are to tar-pit. They lose "Angelic Visage" because the ability to re-roll your 6++ is redundant when you have a 3++ you're always going to use instead.
Force organization: Elite
Unit Type: Jump Infantry. Superior is Jump Infantry (character).
Unit Composition: 1 Principality Superior, 2 Principalities
Wargear:
Power Armour
Power weapon (lance or sword)
Bolt Pistol
Frag grenades
Krak grenades
Jump Pack
Storm Shield
Special Rules:
Act of Faith*
Furious Charge
Shield of Faith
Shred
*Act of Faith: Leap of Faith One use only. This Act of Faith can be used in the Movement Phase. If the Principalities use this Act while Deep Striking, they may reroll the Scatter Dice. If the Principalities use this Act during normal movement, they may use their jump packs in both the Movement Phase and the Assault Phase this turn.
Options:
May include up to seven additional Principalities: +45 35 points per model
Any model may replace her bolt pistol with
- a hand flamer: 5 points
- an inferno pistol: 15 points
Any model may replace her power weapon and storm shield with an Eviscerator: +5 points
The Principality Superior may replace her bolt pistol with a plasma pistol: 15 points
The Principality Superior may take melta bombs: 5 points
Design notes:
Spoiler:
Start with a Seraphim: 15 points
Add +1 Attack (+10 per 3 models by Ovion's guidelines): +3.33
Add +1 Ld (+5 per 3 model, according to Ovion): 1.67
Replace Hit & Run with Furious Charge: +/-0
Replace Angelic Visage with Shred: +/-0
Replace 1 bolt pistol with power weapon (same as the option now given a Seraphim Superior): +15
Add Storm Shield (using C:SM cost for giving one to Elites): +10
NET = 45 points
And the Superior has the same stats as the regulars, as in a Celestian squad.
You could argue this is overcosted because a 3++ storm shield is not worth quite as much when you already have a 6++ save from Shield of Faith, but with a homebrew unit I'm going to err on the side of more points.
Automatically Appended Next Post: PS: Or you could give them an Act of Faith granting FNP, Stubborn, or wound re-rolls to emphasize their toughness and tarpittery.
It's not going to overshadow the Seraphim due to the simple fact that it's a weapon swap on the Seraphim. That said normal Seraphim may end up getting extra tricks; near as I can tell in the current digital Codex their equipment amounts to a bolt pistol and an extra attack, they may get a pump to become a better shooting unit than an Assault Marine squad (fire both pistols, at the very least)
Theory on Exorcists (No good pompous names for the missiles yet):
Standard Missiles: 48", S8, AP1, Heavy d6 Incendiary Missiles: 48", S4, AP5, Heavy d3, Large Blast, Barrage, Ignores Cover
Ground-to-air Missiles: 48", S7, AP3, Heavy d6, Skyfire (Before anyone complains the skyfire missiles are AP3 because the regular Exorcist missiles have better AP than shoulderfired krak missiles so I figure the skyfire missiles would be built similarly)
Thinking alternate loadouts would be available for purchase instead of just making the Exorcist a gun that fires three things to try and keep the price down.
It's not going to overshadow the Seraphim due to the simple fact that it's a weapon swap on the Seraphim. That said normal Seraphim may end up getting extra tricks; near as I can tell in the current digital Codex their equipment amounts to a bolt pistol and an extra attack, they may get a pump to become a better shooting unit than an Assault Marine squad (fire both pistols, at the very least)
You forgot the Gunslinger rule that lets all models with two pistols fire both every turn. Seraphim don't have a special rule for it any more because they made it a USR.
It's not going to overshadow the Seraphim due to the simple fact that it's a weapon swap on the Seraphim. That said normal Seraphim may end up getting extra tricks; near as I can tell in the current digital Codex their equipment amounts to a bolt pistol and an extra attack, they may get a pump to become a better shooting unit than an Assault Marine squad (fire both pistols, at the very least)
You forgot the Gunslinger rule that lets all models with two pistols fire both every turn. Seraphim don't have a special rule for it any more because they made it a USR.
Entirely possible; I don't have to deal with that rule on a regular basis. Looking at the Acts I've got set up I don't think two twin-linked shots would be inappropriate or redundant, however.
I've posted a 7th Edition update of my Vigils, Thrones, & Novices for folks looking for a wider variety of Sisters units: elites with Stealth and Infiltrate; bikes with Scout, Skilled Rider, and Hit & Run; and carapace-armored kids with a special rule called "Sacrificial Lambs"....
So I haven't forgotten about this thread, I've just been a touch busy. Now the following draft doesn't include the Exorcist, or the Shield of Faith special rules, or all of the special characters, but I figured it was a start and at a point where I could look at getting feedback for what is currently there. So here's the first round of updates, so please feel free to tear it apart!
Automatically Appended Next Post: And I just realized that I had the Immolator with a RA of 11. That's wrong. It should be 10.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And just for fun, I'm working on updating the rules I made for the "Deathwind Drop Pod":
Arabella Pattern Drop Pod
Profile....................................BS....Front....Side....Rear....HP Arabella Pattern Drop Pod.....4........12........12.......12.......3
Unit Type: Vehicle (Open-Topped)
Points Cost: 80 points
Wargear:
5 Twin-linked Heavy Bolters
Special Rules:
Drop Pod Assault
Immobile
Inertial Guidance System
Servitor Crew
Drop Pod Assault: Drop Pods and units embarked upon them must be held in reserve and must enter play using the Deep Strike rules. At the beginning of your first turn, choose half of your Drop Pods (rounding up) to make a Drop Pod Assault. Units making a Drop Pod Assault arrive on their controlling player's first turn. The arrival of the remaining Drop Pods is rolled for as normal. A unit that Deep Strikes via Drop Pod cannot charge in the turn it arrives.
Immobile: A Drop Pod cannot move once it has entered play, and counts in all respects a vehicle that has suffered an Immobilised damage result that cannot be repaired in any way. Note that this does not cause it to lose a Hull Point.
Inertial Guidance System: Should a Drop Pod scatter on top of impassable terrain or another model (friend or foe) then reduce the scatter distance by the minimum required in order to avoid the obstacle. Note that if a Drop Pod scatters off the edge of the board, it suffers a Deep Strike Mishap as per the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.
Servitor Crew: Deathwind Drop Pods ignore Shaken and Stunned effects, and are treated as if they were stationary during the movement phase on the turn they arrive. Additionally each weapon counts as an Hull-Mounted Automated Weapon that fires at BS 2 at the nearest enemy non-flyer model in it's line of sight, regardless of what the units fire at. If no other enemy models are in the weapon's range and line of sight the weapon may then fire at the nearest enemy flyer instead. These weapons may not overwatch.
Options:
May exchange all of its Twin-linked Heavy Bolters for:
Twin-linked Multi-meltas………………………………………….…50 pts
Avenger Mega Bolters……………………………………………....75 pts
May take Blessed Ammunition……………………………………………………..10 pts
So two things people who have seen the old one may be familiar with: first the name changed. I named it after Saint Arabella the Liberator, whose Order of the Sacred Rose are renowned for their unflappable Retributors. Besides, the Dominica Pattern was named after a saint so this felt right.
The other is that I repurposed the FW Autocannon version with this Avenger Mega Bolter version as it just felt right (plus without the TL they aren't as accurate as the cheaper options so it feels pretty fair for what it is too).
As before, I'm happy with your take on the existing army, I just want New Units! In that respect, the Living Saint is a beautiful monster, with a lovely army-boosting Act of Faith -- but she desperately needs some way around being Toughness 3, or else the enemy will just dump Strength 6 shots on her until something gets through the Rosarius and she Instantly Deaths....
Good to see the Confessor back, too, dirty old man that he is.
The new "Unstoppable" on the Pengine is... terrifying. And probably OP. No penetrating hits ever?
Some points of confusion:
Why's the Rhino up gunned to a TL storm bolter?
The Canoness and Palatine seem to have the same Act of Faith, only with a different name, and referring to "the Canoness" in both cases
You still refer to "Dedicated Transports" as a FOC category, which GW seems to be doing away with.
Automatically Appended Next Post: PS: And I love the drop pod that lands and machineguns the heck out of everybody. That's just fun.
SisterSydney wrote: As before, I'm happy with your take on the existing army, I just want New Units! In that respect, the Living Saint is a beautiful monster, with a lovely army-boosting Act of Faith -- but she desperately needs some way around being Toughness 3, or else the enemy will just dump Strength 6 shots on her until something gets through the Rosarius and she Instantly Deaths....
True, but I'm wary of handing out any kind of EW.
SisterSydney wrote: Good to see the Confessor back, too, dirty old man that he is.
Yeah, he likes the nuns a little too much. The pervert.
SisterSydney wrote: The new "Unstoppable" on the Pengine is... terrifying. And probably OP. No penetrating hits ever?
On something that is AV11 and only has 3 HP? That's far less powerful that Logan's Chariot of Doom that can take up to 6 hits without worry and its AV12 all around, and fast, and has more attacks, ect, ect, ect. I can't imagine that it makes the game broken. It's kind of a compromise between making it an MC and keeping it a vehicle.
SisterSydney wrote: Some points of confusion:
Why's the Rhino up gunned to a TL storm bolter?
Brain fart. I'll fix it.
SisterSydney wrote: The Canoness and Palatine seem to have the same Act of Faith, only with a different name, and referring to "the Canoness" in both cases
Palatine's AoF is shorter range (6" not 12") and targets a single unit instead of all units, but yeah, I need to fix the references.
SisterSydney wrote: You still refer to "Dedicated Transports" as a FOC category, which GW seems to be doing away with.
Yeah, I'm still cleaning that up. I do have them in FA, I just need to change the "may take a Dedicated Transport" to a list of what they can purchase as dedicated transport.
The options on the Arabella seem like too much. There aren't any other units that can swap a twin-linked heavy bolter for a twin-linked multi-melta. The Immolator doesn't count since the option to take a Twin-linked Heavy Bolter is inherently weaker than the default Twin-linked Heavy Flamer. Add in that the Arabella now gets 5 weapons and it's a serious problem. The Avenger Megabolter as an option costs almost as much as the unit itself and adds a whole ton of firepower.
My Homebrew Deathwind Drop Pod for the Sisters is a lot more toned down and can only swap in 5 Multi-meltas. I priced it at 60 points and 30 points for the Mult-meltas.
The Penitent Engine doesn't need to be a 5th edition Dreadnought. It's a Suicide unit that just needs to get into Combat and wreck up the place, before going down quickly. It doesn't need to go against everything that makes it a walker.
J3f wrote: The options on the Arabella seem like too much. There aren't any other units that can swap a twin-linked heavy bolter for a twin-linked multi-melta. The Immolator doesn't count since the option to take a Twin-linked Heavy Bolter is inherently weaker than the default Twin-linked Heavy Flamer. Add in that the Arabella now gets 5 weapons and it's a serious problem. The Avenger Megabolter as an option costs almost as much as the unit itself and adds a whole ton of firepower.
The Arabella is based on a 2nd Ed Drop pod Sisters had access to, and Marines still get access to. And remember it's a BS2 model, so the TL only effectively makes it BS3 in terms of how powerful it's shooting is. The Avenger is about the only thing I'd argue could be overpowered, but when it doubles the cost of the model, each gun can only target what's in it's firing arch (meaning a max of two weapons can engage any one unit) and it's at a flat BS2 I don't think it really is overpowered.
J3f wrote: The Penitent Engine doesn't need to be a 5th edition Dreadnought. It's a Suicide unit that just needs to get into Combat and wreck up the place, before going down quickly. It doesn't need to go against everything that makes it a walker.
It's not a 5th ed walker as it's still AV11, not AV12 meaning it's a lot easier to strip those 3 HP off of it. The only difference to a standard walker is that it can't be Immobilized, shaken, stunned or spontaneously explode the first time it's sneezed at with the "All pens are glances" rule, making it a suicide unit that actually has a chance of making it into at least one combat.
You've stripped away the one thing that makes vehicles what they are while leaving their one strength. At 60 points they're cheap enough that they don't need to have super armour on top of Shield of Faith. Squadroning also helps mitigate their fragility.
What I did was give Penitent Engines front armour 12 and made them fast and very deadly once in close combat.
They should take some finesse to use not just a unit you deploy and charge at the nearest enemy.
J3f wrote: You've stripped away the one thing that makes vehicles what they are while leaving their one strength. At 60 points they're cheap enough that they don't need to have super armour on top of Shield of Faith. Squadroning also helps mitigate their fragility.
What I did was give Penitent Engines front armour 12 and made them fast and very deadly once in close combat.
They should take some finesse to use not just a unit you deploy and charge at the nearest enemy.
I can't see AV12 on a model that has a person hanging out in front like that. Actually you make a good point, that really should be AV10.
It's a rules caveat. If you had a Land Raider that was built like a Convertible and could put the top down so you could feel the breeze, it would still be AV14 it would just be open-topped.
J3f wrote: It's a rules caveat. If you had a Land Raider that was built like a Convertible and could put the top down so you could feel the breeze, it would still be AV14 it would just be open-topped.
Eh....I'm going to disagree. And call it there on that matter before we turn this into a massive arguement.
Re: the Penitent Engine and giving it some survivability long enough to get into close combat... What about giving it an Act of Faith, which imbues it with an Invul save (5+) until the start of its next Movement phase?
mr. peasant wrote: Re: the Penitent Engine and giving it some survivability long enough to get into close combat... What about giving it an Act of Faith, which imbues it with an Invul save (5+) until the start of its next Movement phase?
The Acts of Faith system I'm using requires Leadership tests would be the big one.
I'm saying it's an awesome idea, not necessarily that it's a good idea. Seeing as how (good) psychic powers are much nastier than (good) Acts of Faith, it wouldn't be as cheesy as psychic vehicles, though.
SisterSydney wrote: I'm saying it's an awesome idea, not necessarily that it's a good idea. Seeing as how (good) psychic powers are much nastier than (good) Acts of Faith, it wouldn't be as cheesy as psychic vehicles, though.
Actually when you think about it, Shield of Faith (as well as Acts of Faith) on Penitent Engines doesn't really make sense. According to the fluff those are criminals who have done something so heinous that even making them into an Arco-flagellant wasn't enough. They don't sound like the faithful to me.
So what I'm considering is dropping them to AV10 all around, and dropping Shield of Faith. That makes them more vulnerable and great Distraction Carnifexes if need be. It's not like they can't get cover behind Rhinos and the like after all.
shinr wrote: Aof and SoF makes sense with the female "pilot" version of PE, who is probably a Repentia.
Nope. Can't be a Repentia, as that's something done willingly as an act of penance and has a chance of redemption. The Penitent Engine is a straight up punishment for the extra-guilty and there are no options there. It's reserved for the most heinous of crimes. Likely cult leaders and those found consorting with xenos are the ones put on the engine. If a Sister was up there, she's already broken her faith by defying the Imperial Creed in some very over the top way and doesn't deserve those bonuses either.
You could fluff Shield of Faith as their sheer overpowering conviction (presumably brainwashed into them) that they need to get to the target and rip it apart.... Exactly how Shield of Faith works is a big question mark.
That said, I didn't give Shield of Faith to any of my homebrew Frateris & Ministorum units, and arguably the Penitent Engine is another such non-Sororitas auxiliary unit.
shinr wrote: Aof and SoF makes sense with the female "pilot" version of PE, who is probably a Repentia.
Nope. Can't be a Repentia, as that's something done willingly as an act of penance and has a chance of redemption. The Penitent Engine is a straight up punishment for the extra-guilty and there are no options there. It's reserved for the most heinous of crimes. Likely cult leaders and those found consorting with xenos are the ones put on the engine. If a Sister was up there, she's already broken her faith by defying the Imperial Creed in some very over the top way and doesn't deserve those bonuses either.
The Penitent Engine having Shield of Faith is Tradition. A lot of people would be disappointed by it losing SoF.
By that logic, Sisters losing their bonuses by being found guilty of defying the Imperial Creed, Repentia would also lose Shield of Faith and Acts of Faith.
"Tradition" dating back to a 5th edition WD update. So a tradition of about 3 years now. Yeah, we can can it.
Repentia don't "defy the Imperial Creed", they're Sisters who have screwed up and seek the Emperor's forgiveness. It could be something like breaking in battle, or allowing harm to come to an important Relic or realizing she had a moment where she questioned her faith.
SisterSydney wrote: Or forgetting to brush her teeth, the way some of the more zealous orders seem to handle it...
It's voluntary (last I knew), so it's more that someone points out that she has a bit of cabbage in her teeth so she bounces off to join the Repentia to resolve her shame (there is one Order where the Repentia are kind of a big deal and they will use almost any excuse to join them. They kind of have a serious "we must repent for EVERYTHING" complex. If 40k was a dating sim they'd be that girl who likes being tied up I guess).
SisterSydney wrote: Or forgetting to brush her teeth, the way some of the more zealous orders seem to handle it...
It's voluntary (last I knew), so it's more that someone points out that she has a bit of cabbage in her teeth so she bounces off to join the Repentia to resolve her shame (there is one Order where the Repentia are kind of a big deal and they will use almost any excuse to join them. They kind of have a serious "we must repent for EVERYTHING" complex. If 40k was a dating sim they'd be that girl who likes being tied up I guess).
It's voluntary in that their other choice is Bolt Psitol to the head.
Not necessarily -- I get the impression some Sisters self-condemn to the Repentia when no one would make them, and when a lesser punishment (or none) would suffice. But I fear we stray off topic.
Indeed. Sisters rarely out-right execute other Sisters. In fact, the only known instance/example I can think of for such a case is if a woman manifests psychic abilities late in life. Though, execution is probably too strong a word, as it implies instantaneous death... the fate of such witches is anything but quick and painless.
![[Disk]](/dakkaforum/templates/default/images/icon_disk.gif){kind=icon}
Seriously though, with the description being a kind of spike it sounded like the kind of thing that'd be perfect for stabbing into the joints of armor pretty easily, making it more likely to wound, but not more likely to hit. If you have recommendations either way I'm up for hearing them.
